Daniel Hauser and his rejection of chemotherapy: Is religion the driving force or just a convenient excuse?

Oh, about surgery vs. chemo: It’s rampant speculation on my part, but perhaps it has something to do with the dominance of automobiles in modern culture. No, really, hear me out.

I remember once saying to my father after his quadruple bypass (which was a few years after his double bypass), “You think your body is like a car, and the surgeons are mechanics who’ll fix you right up.” And my dad, who’s a very smart man, said simply, “Yes.”

When you take your car to a mechanic who installs new parts, you think of your car as “fixed.” Buying stuff yourself to pour into the gas tank is seen as a half-measure of dubious effectiveness, which, at least for cars, it probably is.

Maybe for lay people who are desperately trying to get a handle on assessing the effectiveness of treatments in complex, unfamiliar situations where life hangs in the balance, the car metaphor is the best they can come up with.

Consider this situation:

My son was born blind (anophthalmia) with a bilateral cleft lip and palate. He has since been diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome and epilepsy.

He is now 22, and has had numerous surgeries to correct the clefts, but still needs major surgery to his nose to look relatively ‘normal’, and requires veneers on his malformed teeth.

His surgeon is giving him the choice as to whether he has a ‘nose job’, (albeit major surgery) in such a way that makes me want to swoon over doctors that deal with ‘kids in crisis’. Without any posturing or domineering, he has convinced my son that surgery for his nose is the best thing for him.

For this, I am really grateful. I am a scientist (PhD in epidemiology), and a mother. I need and want the medical community to help my child and others like him to live and grow.

Indeed, an excellent post.

One thing that I’m finding encouraging is the quality of reporting on this story compared to some others. Maybe it’s because it’s here in Minnesota, where we’ve got a strong cultural attachment to modern medicine, what the Mayo Clinic, the headquarters of Medtronic, and so forth. The Strib has a nice and appropriately skeptical piece, which comes to the same conclusion: that this is not a matter of religious conviction, but a matter of using religion as a legal shield for dubious decisions, exploring the background of the “Nemenhah” organization and also mentioning a website run by an Apache which is dedicated to exposing frauds who exploit Native American mystique. He calls these sorts “plastic shamans”.

One sharp bit from the article: In other words, if Danny’s Internet-purchased regimen doesn’t work, critics say, he will live a tragically short life, but it won’t be because the government interfered with religion. Call it death by multilevel marketing.

Minneapolis Star-Tribune: A closer look contains hints of sham artist, not a shaman

The problem with dithering over chemo or not chemo is that by the time you get a diagnosis, the clock has already been ticking. The longer you wait, the worse your chances for a successful outcome.

No one knows the full story of the involvement this family has with this religious group, just that they follow the beliefs. This family is trying to do what they feel is right for their child and trying to defend themselves using any legal argument they can. Big medicine, big pharma, and big government has everyone else brainwashed to believe that the allopathic way and model of current times is the only way. Four years ago, I watched my father-in-law die from chemo and radiation. I spent a lot of time on the “internet” researching alternative cancer treatments. And I am glad I did. I myself was diagnosed with breast cancer almost two years ago and I am undergoing an alternative natural treatment based on nutrition, a diet of organic and unprocessed foods and an herbal tonic called Hoxsey. I go to Tijuana, Mexico every six months for the Hoxsey tonic. Harry Hoxsey was in the US for many years treating thousands of cancer patients with an almost 80% success rate. He, at one time had the largest cancer clinic in the US in Houston Texas. He, like many others, was ran out of the US by the AMA and the FDA. I am an employee of a major medical establishment in SE Minnesota and they were not very happy with me when I said I was going to go to Mexico. The good news is, I am cancer free and feel the greatest I have in my life! So all of you people who want a pill for every ill and do not want to be responsible for what goes into your body and causes your disease, step up and take the poison and stand in line to be sliced and burned when you get cancer.

@Jud: I think that is a factor: if not the car metaphor specifically, people think of surgery as “going in and fixing it.” Also, it’s easy to understand what cancer surgeries are: they physically cut out the tumor. There’s a lot more misunderstanding and fear around the nasty chemotherapeutics.

Also, the effects they have really *are* pretty awful, though it’s often hard to know what’s the cancer and what’s the chemo.

I wonder if the difference between the acceptance of surgery versus chemo is simply the delivery. By that, I mean that chemotherapy is an ongoing thing — you have to go back for multiple treatments, for many weeks, each of which may make you feel sick as a dog.

Surgery, by contrast, is (often) a one-time thing. Sure, you may have a nasty recovery from it, but they’re not sending you back into the operating room every week for months.

Unfortunately claiming religious reasons is a very common tactic for many native american groups to use to try to get what they want in court. Here in Arizona, there are a couple of prominent lawsuits going on in which native americans are using religious claims as their main arguments. They seem to expect the argument to end the second they claim something is “sacred”. It has even had a stifling effect on the teaching of certain scientific topics in the public schools, and to my eyes seems similar to christian creationist tactics.

So what hoops does he have to jump through to be allowed to continue to say “no, it’s my body, my life, I don’t want it”? Maybe it’s the “wrong” decision, but life is full of opportunities for wrong and deadly decisions: jump off a cliff, torment big dogs, run into busy traffic, point a toy gun at an armed cop.

But is it an informed decision when he thinks that he has a 100% chance of surviving without the chemo?

I understand your point that a person (certainly an adult) ought to be able to say “the costs of survival are high enough that I chose not to take that path”. And I agree that a person should have that choice.

But this isn’t someone saying “dignified death is better than this treatment”. This is someone saying “The docs say I have a better than 80% chance of surviving if I take their treatment, but this guy over here guarantees I will survive if I forgo the treatment and pray hard enough. And the medical treatment scares me enough that I want to believe him.” That doesn’t sound like such an informed choice to me, especially when he’s so young.

I had colon cancer 5 years ago, had surgery, then 7 months of chemo (4 weeks on, 2 weeks off). I was 50 and had no illusions about how I was going to feel. I wanted to show my family that I was not suffering unduly so they would not worry. I may be the only person who gained weight during chemo because my wife is such a good cook (even though everything tasted like zinc).
I tried to be a cheerleader for those who suffered more than I did, and held a lot of hands, most of whom survived.
I appreciate your posts, as they give me ammunition to present to my (otherwise) intelligent relatives who find reason to downplay science and turn to woo.

Orac wrote:

What has to be considered is the risk of the chemotherapy versus the risk of death from cancer.

Every medication, every procedure has a risk. Real medicine knows this basic fact, and informs the patient appropriately.

AltMed Woomeisters, on the other hand, almost always state that they are perfect, without risk of side effects (well, homeopaths who are making water potions made of water won’t have any safety issues) and without stating any possibility that they might fail.

But I guess you’re right. People rather not hear about the negative.

You get it. Thank you for that.

If I were the judge in this case, I would allow Daniel to remain in the custody of his parents. I think this kid has been through enough trauma already and doesn’t need more of it. Thirteen is a very young age to be separated from your family while you’re also dealing with a health crisis.

But I would also assign a social worker or case manager to monitor the family closely and make sure Daniel is going to all his medical appointments, counseling and whatever else is deemed necessary to give him and the family the support they need to get through this. And I think there’s also going to have to be some pretty intensive case management by the medical team to get the family on board, address their concerns and keep them in the information loop.

Medicine is not just about science and reason. At the end of the day, it’s also about human beings and about emotions and communication. We ignore this at our peril.

Perhaps the very name “chemotherapy” contributes to the aversion. Nobody wants “chemicals”! (Though “without chemicals, life itself would be impossible”).

That was an excellent insightful post, Orac. Thank you for writing it to counterbalance some of the ignorant-based screeds written by other “skeptics”. You give real skeptics a good name.

I was diagnosed with breast cancer at age 38. I went through surgery, radiation and 12 rounds of chemotherapy over the course of one year. Here’s the thing about chemo. It’s not fun my any stretch of the imagination but it’s also not what you see in the movies. I worked full time and raised my kids (who at the time were 5 and 18 months) and even went to the movies and to the occasional dinner. I am insanely radical about this case. This young man has no way of making a decision about his life and death at this age and frankly no way of really understanding what it means. Trust me, until you’ve looked at death, really looked at it, it’s not real.

I don’t know what the legal mechanisms should be but I want to give this kid chemo and lots of it, until he is “cancer free” or in remission. Then he can grow up and hate the government or become a homeopathic doctor if he wants but at least he’ll get to grow up.

In this case and in Cherrix’s case, you mention that both went through chemo. In Cherrix’s case, I seem to recall that he went through a whole course of treatment, and that it was unsuccessful; and then he rejected going through another course (different?).

As I read it, it wasn’t unsuccessful, it was what is called a “partial response”, i.e. the tumor is diminished but not completely gone. In cancer treatment, you can get a complete response (tumor gone, and you’re considered in remission), a partial response (tumor shrunk but still there), a stabilisation (tumor growth has slowed or stopped, but tumor has not shrunk) or no response (tumor continues growing – treatment has no effect).

An oncologist would never recommend, and would indeed discourage, a chemo course which has previously given no response, ie that as unsuccessful.

May I point out that most people don’t approach the problem the way the author seems to indicate they do. I honestly doubt most people think “Ooo… poison.. I’m scared.” If they did, they wouldn’t go for the first treatment.

It’s actually much simpler: they go in for the first treatment and end up feeling a LOT worse than they started. That’s a necessary evil of the process and in theory, in the end they’ll feel better – but the up front cost is VERY high.

This is something a LOT of people don’t get. It’s something that marketing people do because it affects purchasing decisions everywhere (and choice of treatment is a purchasing decision). People are far, far more influenced by up front cost than by long term benefits.

This is why the vast majority of people buy cheap PCs and why netbooks have taken off. The up front cost of these computers are far lower even if they’re more poorly constructed and have shorter lifespans (which is arguable anyway – but that’s a different discussion).

In the same way, the up front cost of chemo is huge and scary – it’s painful, it makes you lose your hair, it can cause symptoms *worse* than the illness in the short term.

THAT is what scares people off.

With no other options – they turn to whatever hope they can find – no matter how stupid it may seem to us (who are analysing it all far more rationally and logically than the person who is sick will be).

As for the body as a car question: the body IS a machine. It’s a collection of billions of cells operating semi-autonomously running programs stored on DNA. It’s a massively complex system that uses chemical signalling and one that we simply don’t understand well enough to tinker with – but that will come in time.

Ironically, the notion of a person as more than a system is a weird holdover from older religious views that even science can’t seem to shake fully – and a view that really is holding medicine back. Once we accept that we really are just a collective pile of cells – we can start looking at problems as *system* problems and fix things by reconstructing optimal configuations rather than seeing the body as indivisible lumps.

Micki:

I lost three grandparents, an aunt, and a few other loved ones to cancer denial. Every goddamned one of them could have been saved if they hadn’t lied to themselves. I nearly lost my mother to it, but the horror of my aunt’s death tipped the scales, and she got the mammogram. And now I have just learned that my father has been ignoring a melanoma for four months.

Do you know the rage, fear, and sickness I feel?

For the sake of everyone you love, GO GET YOURSELF TREATED PROPERLY. NOW.

Don’t put them through what so many families must endure. Don’t make your daughter sit at your bedside as you utter the most hateful, hurtful things about her in ways only a mother can because the cancer is eating your brain. I would do anything to take that memory from my mother, but I can’t. You still can.

Calli Arcade, I understand that this particular group is a sham, it seems to blend in with the spectrum of “real” native beliefs and practice and all the new-age adulterations and scams. I live close to Sedona, and there are all sorts of people there some native, some pretenders, some just plain crazy who cater to the credulous tourists looking for native wisdom. This story illustrates one such case (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/13/us/13peaks.html)
One of the tribes involved in this lawsuit uses reclaimed water on their own ski resort on their own sacred mountain.
My main complaint is that claiming “sacred” or religious reasons as a defense is used far too often, whether it is a legitimate, long held belief or a scam. Here in the southwest, there are dozens of competing worldviews and sacred beliefs. Favoring one is likely to offend another.
I suppose I am just venting, but I would love to see a rational argument instead of appeals to the sacred.

Orac – “Chemotherapy is poison, and people are correctly afraid of poison. (Look for some woo-meister to quote-mine that sentence.)”

Telling the truth is the right thing to do, even if some people will give you trouble for it.

People are far, far more influenced by up front cost than by long term benefits.

So true.

Just look at how hard it is to get somebody to modify diet or exercise levels to get a better quality of life (and in many cases, a better life expectancy).

And these nearly cause any suffering at all, just inconvenience and discomfort.

Accepting a cancer diagnosis and going through treatment without denial takes a lot of will and courage.

“Just look at how hard it is to get somebody to modify diet or exercise levels to get a better quality of life (and in many cases, a better life expectancy).

And these nearly cause any suffering at all, just inconvenience and discomfort.

Accepting a cancer diagnosis and going through treatment without denial takes a lot of will and courage.”

Proponents of alternative “medicine” are often telling people that choosing alternative treatments for cancer is actually “taking full responsibility for you own health” and equals choosing “quality over quantity.” Thereby they imply that a long life is by definition without quality and people undergoing conventional treatment are nothing but spineless dopes. This is how people are lulled into thinking that their choices are motivated by their intelligence and powers of discernment, instead of by fear of harsh treatments and short-term thinking.

@aftercancer

Here’s the thing about chemo. It’s not fun my any stretch of the imagination but it’s also not what you see in the movies.

Please don’t forget that there are different kinds of chemo, depending on what cancer you have. I had nearly four months of chemo (accoridng to one nurse, it was the harshest chemo they had) and it was quite as bad as in the movies, only more so, because it wasn’t over after 90 minutes. Going to the movies? Out for dinner? I was glad I could manage driving by bus to the hospital, but that was as exhausting as a marathon. So, yes, chemo can be every bit as bad as you always hear.
However, that was 10 years ago, I’m still alive, healthy again and thank my doctors for saving me. In the end, it was an easy calculation: Loose 4 month to chemo, gain many years of life afterwards.

@synapse:

It depends what he is given, in what dose and in what intervals. There are a lot chemo protocols, and they have different types of side-effects.

In cases of lymphomas and leukemias, a patient can be given what is called an “induction chemotherapy”, that is an agressive round of (curative) treatment, using sronger drugs or higher doses of the drugs to kill off most of the cancer. What is given afterwards in called “consolidation”, which aims to destroy the remaining cancer cells and/or prolong remission times and decrease chances of relapse.

Consolidation therapy, being less agressive, is generally better tolerated.

Depending on the case, it might be that your friend be given a second round of induction therapy (which will be harsh) followed by a consolidation. In that case the second course would ressemble the first. If it is a round of consolidation though, the effects would be milder.

There’s a wonderful article about how alternative forms of medical treatments might spread even if their efficacy is low. For those interested, I’ve blogged about the article on my site here:

http://www.apatternedworld.com/2009/04/evolution-education-and-witchcraft.html

The plural of anecdote is not evidence. Try harder.

Also, look up “spontaneous remission.”

Micki:

The doctors ignore clinical evidence of success with alternatives, calling it anecdotal.

All you have to do is present the actual real evidence that the “alternatives” are successful more than they fail. For every anecdote of success, there are stories about those who die while trying the alternatives.

If you search this blog you will find a few, like the one about the Orange Man (in case you did not know, Orac is a cancer doctor, specializing in breast cancer surgery).

I also remember years and years ago when I used to lurk on the Usenet there was a case of a fellow who documented his attempt to cure his colon cancer through alternative means online. I remember I did read his website, and then his obituary… both are gone. But still remains it the google archive of the announcement of his death on misc.health alternative, Freedom of Choice. Here is some of the posting of that message (Peter Moran is a retired oncologist, he has a website that I believe is called “CancerWatcher”):

Neil used alternative treatments, and dozens of them, for a rectal cancer. I feel rather sad at his death, as I got to know him quite well through his posts, and corresponded with him on a couple of occasions. I once tried to get him to reconsider surgery.

… The fact that Neil lived on for three years with only local symptoms such as pain, bleeding, bowel difficulties (including incontinence) and bladder symptoms simply suggests that he had a very slowly growing tumour with little metastatic potential. He thus had an excellent chance of being cured by surgery. Note that within alternative medicine medical opinion is held to be worthless and dominated by venal self-interest unless it happens include unwise predictions regarding the progress of a newly diagnosed cancer. It can then be employed to make alternative treatments look as though they did something, when the progress is well within the range of rates of progression of cancers.

… This is not a clear example of patient choice. It might be if the prospects of cure with alternative treatments were not such a closely guarded secret. I don’t blame him for wanting to avoid a colostomy, but his ultimate misery was far worse.

Good luck with the path you have taken, hopefully your journey will not turn into a cautionary tale like the ones above.

I know several people who were told to get their affairs in order because they only have a few months left who are still alive and kicking several years later, after trying alternatives. So I suppose all those people who seek alternatives and go to the foreign countries because they have been told to go home and die, should just go home and die. An alternative is not going to work. It’s not so black and white is it?

I know several people who were told to get their affairs in order because they only have a few months left who are still alive and kicking several years later, after trying alternatives. So I suppose all those people who seek alternatives and go to the foreign countries because they have been told to go home and die, should just go home and die. An alternative is not going to work. It’s not so black and white is it?

Unless you can present actual data that the alternatives have some meaningful chance of working (which you can’t), it IS so black and white. I’ll also note that it’s pretty nearly certain that those people were told nothing of the sort, and instead were told (at most) that such was their likely result.

I read what the alternative medicine proponents are writing. I simply cannot understand them. My husband went through 6 rounds of ABVD with Hodgkin’s Lymphoma. They were tough, but he got through them. He even gained 3 pounds of weight. Ten years later, he is still here.

My teenager was diagnosed with Burkitt’s Lymphoma. We did one round of induction that was absolutely miserable and five rounds of consolidation that were merely awful. We had two rounds of neutropenia that put him back in the hospital. He is doing all of his one-year checkups right now, and so far, so good. His oncologist, Dr. S. Siegal, at Children’s Hospital Los Angeles (plug!!) answered every question we had, told us the complete and unvarnished truth about nausea, hair loss, diarrhea, neutropenia, phosphorus, and many other things that would and could happen. The whole CHLA team supported my son in every way, allowing my son to feel in control as much as was possible. Dr. Siegal warned my son about how very sick he was going to feel, how long it would last, and how my son would gradually get better and finally feel good again. Every word of it proved true.

Without evidence based medicine, my husband and son would both be gone. At this moment, I have both of them, and I hope that both are here for a lot longer. Every minute is a treasure and I will do anything for which there is sound scientifically collected evidence to keep them as healthy as possible.

And by the way, I was diagnosed with a needle biopsy at this wonderful place I work for and underwent a lumpectomy.

Ah, so you did undergo convention treatment, but give the credit to the shady Mexican woo.

Sorry but this topic has been discussed here by Orac many, many times. For many breast cancers, the surgical resection is where most of the treatment efficacy comes from. Doctors then sometimes administer radiation to reduce the risk of local recurrence and chemo to reduce the risk of recurrence elsewhere. But this is just the “icing on the cake” as the meat of the treatment is in the surgery.

Indeed, Joseph C. Micki’s showing the classic woo pattern of “seek some conventional treatment and then credit the woo.” I hope the lymph node positive she had was just a false one and she’s in the clear.

But while that makes me feel better, it’s worse in some ways. Now she’ll be out there peddling woo to others claiming herself as proof, and some other poor fool and his family will pay the price. But she won’t be responsible, oh no…

And Micki can’t believe OUR ignorance…

In the end only the boy and/or his parents know for sure why they have made these particular choices. Being a parent is a hard job, and children suffer in the best of circumstances when parents are lacking in skills, judgment, maturity, experience, intellect, financial resources, emotional health. So many ways for kids to suffer, so many ways for parents to fall short. Most of the time it is not life and death stuff. This situation is really sad, and if the court won’t make a different decision, perhaps the parents will be exposed to different points of view and change their minds.

Of course, denial can go both ways. I’ve known people who’ve had so much faith in modern medicine that they believe it will save them long past the time when the doctors have been telling them that it won’t. They insist on heroic measures, and when it comes to those kinds of measures, you can always find somebody willing to do it. After all, on the surface, it’s not bad to intubate someone. They need to breathe, after all, and if they’re willing, why not? Where there’s life there’s hope, right? But when a person is at the end of their life, the discomfort of intubation isn’t justified. It won’t save them, so it may be kinder to let them pass. I had a relative who had that particular problem, and I fear that my maternal grandparents (whose health has become increasingly fragile lately) will go the same way, insisting on heroic measures for no good reason, making themselves miserable when they could be enjoying life a little longer.

I remember reading about brilliant character actor Andreas Katsulas (known to SF fans as G’Kar on Babylon 5). He died of lung cancer a few years ago, the consequence of a dedicated smoking habit. (There are many stories of people encountering him in the alley behind the studio, in full Narn makeup, with prosthetics and red contacts, enjoying a smoke. A surreal image, and one he delighted in.) When he was diagnosed, the doctors were straight with him — the cancer was too advanced, and he would not live more than a year. Indeed, a year later, he was dead. But instead of living in denial, he made the most of that year. He quit smoking immediately, and joked to friends that since being told he was dying, he’d never felt better. He started eating right and exercising, and taking extra time to be with friends and family. Eventually, of course, the cancer grew, and he became gravely ill and ultimately died. But he’d made the most of the time he’d had before that, and I have to say I really admire that. I’m not sure I could be so honest with myself.

Yeah, Callie, Katsulas’ death was a real blow to the gut for his fans. Straczynski had it right…the man became a giant onscreen when he put on that role, just dominating any scene by his mere presence, and offscreen all the more so for his apparent personal humility, and his excellent handling of his diagnosis.

He’s 13. He’s old enough to throw a monkey wrench in the works, pulling out IVs, not sitting still, etc, etc, etc. But he’s too young to understand the consequences of what he’s doing. Why waste the time of the docs? Let them treat people who desire treatment, if they feel thy have to do something, give him 5o mls of morphine IV push, and be done with it.

I’ve read through all this and found it stimulating and insightful and while I appreciated that people want to save Daniel in spite of himself because he’s “only” 13 years old, I have to disagree. Kids are dying of hunger and disease and war every day, why are kids in rich countries so much more special? There’s no way to undo what the parents are doing in leading him to this goofy “belief system” (by the way, aren’t ALL religions “fake”?) without some kind of reverse brainwashing–which would have its own ethical implications.

I know that death is the enemy for doctors (and most people), but it isn’t clear to me whether or not Daniel understands that he might very well die. Maybe he accepts that. There was a case of a young girl who had already had dozens of surgeries for an incurable condition who went to court to get the right to not have any more and she won. (It may have been in England). My point is that she seemed to show more maturity than some of the adults who were totally focused on saving her at any cost rather than her own view of her quality of life. It’s not an absolute parallel to Daniel’s case, but I’d like to know more about the whole thing. Thirteen is young, but it’s insulting to say that he can’t make this decision–the real question is: does he have all the information? Thirteen year olds in Africa are raising their siblings whose parents have died of AIDS-related disease and 13-year-old girls (young women) are mothers in many parts of the world. Be careful about projecting our cultural ideas of maturity onto everyone else (not meant to imply that I necessarily thing it’s a good idea for a 13-year-old to be a mother, just that it’s not uncommon and that it doesn’t mean she can’t do it well just because of her age).

I don’t know , this is difficult all the way around. You can’t make a judgement on the emotional maturity of a child purely on age without attempting to find out if he truly has an understanding of the permanence of his decision.I understand the reference to kids in Africa raising their siblings and in fact I’m sure that you can find similar examples here, but in general the trend has been for children to emotionally mature later as we have progressed over the last hundred years or so.It’s not intrinsically wrong to project our ideas of maturity on this child as mentioned by the previous poster because this is happening in the United States not in Africa; that said,it may well not accurately reflect his state of maturity.What I have read of the story that concerns me is that no one has a real grip on what he understands in all of this;as mentioned,how much of this is a real fear of chemo and how much is his emotional response to the aunt’s death.I would agree that if any good is to come of this, someone in the families confidence needs to communicate with them to truly make sure that they know what the consequences of their decision will be;this should not exclude the child since it’s his life at risk.

DVMKurmes –
The Apaches recycle the water for the ski resort’s artificial snow … it goes from a small lake onto the mountain as snow, melts and goes back to the lake. It is not recycled sewage like Snow Bowl wants to use.

And none of the three peaks used for skiing at Sunrise are “sacred” to the Apache or any of the tribes of the area … sometimes a mountain is just a mountain. The San Francisco Peaks, on the other hand, are very important to the Hopi and some other tribes.

@Anthro: “There was a case of a young girl who had already had dozens of surgeries for an incurable condition who went to court to get the right to not have any more and she won. (It may have been in England).”
Was it this case?
That girl was born with a chronic debilitating heart condition and was having long-term treatment for leukaemia; she had spent most of her life having medical treatment. She had talked extensively to her doctors, she knew what the treatment entailed and what the risks were and she made an informed decision. Social services initially intervened only because a single locum doctor, who didn’t know the girl, called them in; her own medical team – the ones who had treated her for years – supported her choice. Which, incidentally, was to accept that she was dying and have a short but happy, fulfilling and fairly comfortable life – not to spend thousands on purchasing miracle cures and false hope.
It’s a completely different case from that of Daniel Hauser, who has clearly been grossly misinformed.

Micki, I don’t understand why you sound so angry. If you want to indulge in alternative medicine, do so. You don’t have to make comments about your “running circles” around us “healthy people” – by the way, I’m one of those “healthy people” who not only had chemotherapy, but a stem cell transplant to handle my lymphoma. And I assure you that I am healthy, but really don’t see a need to run circles around anyone.

You have a choice to go any way you want for treatment, or no treatment at all. I had more chemotherapy than most people look at in a lifetime – and there are few, if any side effects; I pick up a cold from my grandchildren more easily than before, but I recover easily. The child under discussion in this dialogue is a child, however, and I think he is being whipped around by fear. Kids do that. It’s up to their adults/parents to research the best way to help them. I’m getting an impression that these particular parents are also being whipped around by emotion, giving another layer of inappropriate behavior. Protecting our kids is primary parental stuff – and sometimes protection isn’t easy.

I had my treatment at Memorial Sloan-Kettering. I experienced great fatigue, very little discomfort, and almost no nausea during my five or six months of treatment. I knew exactly what was happening because it was explained to me by a wonderful medical team. Yes, I did examine alternative treatment, and couldn’t rationalize consulting John of God in Brazil, psychic surgeons in the Philippines, or accepting coffee enemas, liver fluke zappers, colonic purges, herbal medicines, chiropractic,special diets, – the proponents of which ALL speak just as passionately as you do, if not more so. Each one swore it could cure my cancer.

Micki, to my sure and certain knowledge, physicians do choose traditional treatments, including chemotherapy, for their cancers. Some may not; it’s a choice. There is no “law” that says a physician must use “drugs.” That’s just silly stuff.

My stem cell transplant was nine years ago. My doctors tell me that I’m cured. I eat well, but I’ve always eaten well, always trying for organic food, locally grown. Vegetarians get cancer also. I confess that I don’t always trust the “organic” label. I also confess a weakness for Carvel sundaes. I am strong, I am healthy, I am sane. I’m also no different than thousands of other Lymphoma survivors.

Some cancer patients do die, no matter what treatment they embrace. I hope you do survive. But I see no guarantees from your “treatment” or mine. You want guarantees? Invest in gravestones.

@micki: “If everyone is so sure it doesn’t work, where are the dollars to study and prove it doesn’t? ”
So where are all the ex-cancer patients that have been cured by a few trips to Mexico to deal with their liver flukes or toxicity or whatever? It wouldn’t take too many of them coming back and showing their doctors that they were clear of cancer, to get those doctors sitting up and taking notice. And Big Pharma would certainly be interested in proven cancer treatments.
Perhaps Orac can confirm that Mexico has closed all its hospital oncology wards, oncology training departments and cancer research departments and is now sending all Mexican cancer patients to these world-famous and successful clinics?

@micki: “If everyone is so sure it doesn’t work, where are the dollars to study and prove it doesn’t? ”
It isn’t up to medical researchers to prove that a treatment doesn’t work. Would you like your tax dollars spent on, for instance, proving that powdered rhino horn doesn’t boost male potency?
The burden of proof is on the practitioners who are claiming that their altmed treatments work. All they have to do is to present the detailed medical records of some of the hundreds of thousands of patients that they’ve cured. It wouldn’t cost all that much and the patients would surely have no objection to being studied.
Wail all you like about blinkered doctors and Big Pharma conspiracies – but anybody with a cancer cure that really works will have the whole world qeueing up for it.

If there is a cure for cancer, I know a lot of people who would like to know it. See, they are people who actually became scientists because they lost loved ones due to cancer. They went to graduate school to learn biochemistry well enough that they could work on solving the problem, and work in companies whose goal it is to cure cancer.

They don’t care how they do it, they want a cure. They are in the company because they think that is their best chance to help find a cure. But they don’t care – they will take anything. If someone brings them a promising cancer cure, they will jump on it. However, there is a cautionary tale: they aren’t stupid, and won’t just jump onto any random claim. It has to really be promising, in that there has to be some science behind it. It has to have solid evidence that it can work. For starters, you better be able to explain it. These folks aren’t stupid, and aren’t going to waste their time chasing down some whacko’s alchemy claims. You tell them, “This will cure cancer, and here’s how it will do it.” If the science is legit, they will jump on it. Heck, they will quit their current job and work for you if they think that will help.

How dare you insult these people, claiming they are part of consipiracy? Damn it, we’ve all lost friends and loved ones to cancer. How can you suggest that someone doesn’t want to cure it? You should get out and meet the people that do this stuff. They are some of the most brilliant people on the planet, and they care. In some cases, passionately. It consumes them.

You may have heard stories about such people. I know them. They exist.

@micki:

This is the most brilliant thing you’ve said yet:

“If I am in a car accident, by all means, I want to be brought to the finest.”

So if you’re in a car accident, you want to be taken to those professionals who have spent years in medical school, completed residencies, and basically just undergone extensive training and research in their field. However, for cancer, you *don’t* want to go to these people? Seriously? That makes all the sense in the world. But at least you (perhaps unwittingly) acknowledge that oncologists (MDs, not spiritual healers w/ magic water in Tijuana or what have you) are the finest we have to offer.

I am a 16 year survivor of stage I Hodgkin’s Disease so I can speak on this topic with the authority of someone’s who’s been there. I think the person who wrote this blog is missing the point. Cancer treatments are very likely to cause major health problems later in life. Personally, I am depressed, I have chronic insomnia, borderline melanoma/dysplastic nevi syndrome (I also had radiation therapy), low white blood cell count, chronic neck pain, need I go on? After my first treatment, I almost died from massive bacterial infection after my white blood count dropped to near zero. Yes, I am alive because of the treatments. However, if I could go back to when I was 19 and I was diagnosed, I would most certainly have tried naturopathic methods before going with conventional treatments. Hodgkin’s Disease is very slow to spread and does so only to adjacent lymph nodes. Therefore, it is likely that this boy and his family have time to try other methods.

In short, I would rather that the author of this blog not speak on this topic as though he/she has been through treatment for HD. You have not and you have no right to write as though you have. Of course, this is par for the course for boneheaded blog writers anyway (yes, that means I think all blog writers are boneheads).

With all due respect, C B: you know jack.

As I’ve said (and this goes for Joe, too) you REALLY need to analyze how you KNOW what you “know.”

What about the freedom to choose what is best for ourselves? Everyone should have the freedom to make these choices amongst themselves without government Interference. Chemotherapy is extremely difficult, and many times reduces the quality of life you are extending and can kill you. Some people are glad for it and do well. You are taking a gamble whichever you choose, and should not have to submit to another man’s conscience as to what is best for the quality and type of life you live! Ridiculous! Would you want a decision that you feel strongly about made for you simply because someone in authority doesn’t agree? Are we americans or fascists? You can’t have both. What happened to, ” Give me Liberty or Give me Death!”? My hope for every American is to realize that we are all too different to force our personal point of view on each other. Respect each other and their belief system no matter how crazy it may seem to you. That is what makes America so great right? To have the personal freedom to live your life as you choose as long as you are not infringing upon another man’s rights. What if the courts ruled everyone had to worship some God because they did studies, which they have, that your health would fare better with prayer. How many athiests out their would prefer to die than worship “some crazy man’s God.” We all have something we feel strongly enough to die for. Noone, absolutely noone should be able to take that from us!

Although I have some doubts that Daniel – being 13 years old – truly understands the implications of his decisions, I would be willing to let him make this decision if it weren’t for one little thing: “informed consent”.

A lot has been said and debated about the right (and ability) of a thirteen-year-old to make a critical medical decision, to give informed consent. However, his consent isn’t informed – he has been fed a load of baloney about post-modern “native” healing that anybody with a brain can see is a scam. Apparently, his parents have bought into this nonsense as well, or are at least too confused to assert their parental authority.

Choosing sham(an) treatment over well-studied (and highly successful) real treatment for Hodgkin’s lymphoma is not the sign of “informed consent”. If he had said that he would choose doing nothing over chemotherapy, that would at least be a sign that he understood his true options.

Now, while I can readily forgive Daniel’s reluctance to undergo chemotherapy, since he is still a child, I cannot so easily forgive his parents’ inaction. They need to step up and be parents. If they decide to send Daniel to this shaman instead of giving him an odds-on chance of survival, that at least is a choice. Saying, in essence, “It’s Daniel’s decision.” is the coward’s way out.

I am also surprised that “Chief Cloupiler” isn’t trying to get Daniel to go for the chemotherapy. After all, when Daniel dies of a cancer that is 90% curable with real medicine, his herbs and teas are going to take the blame.

If he had Daniel at least undergo a partial round of chemotherapy, “Cloudpiler” (“Dungpiler”?) could later claim “If he’d only come to me sooner…” As it stands right now, Daniel is going to be a “clean kill” on “Cloudpiler’s” score sheet. Mr. Landis strikes me as being sophisticated enough to realize this and I’d be surprised if he wasn’t working feverishly in the background to have Daniel get at least a couple doses of chemotherapy before he submits to the “herb of death”.

Prometheus

Hmm, see post #1. Can I claim prescience?

So the religious want to outlaw abortion because it’s a life after all, but want to give parents the right to let their children die without proper medical care. Typical religious hypocrisy.

“Do unto others as…” At some point or another, most of you who think you have the moral obligation to stomp over an individual family’s rights and support the system will be challenged by similar circumstances. Make sure you think before you speak – and THINK HARD – for there will be no one to defend your individuality when the system stomps over what you consider appropriate for your family.

Also, all those who trump and hail to the concept of data, numbers, facts, and figures, remember: Organizations and human beings (with egos and profits) can skew data any which way to support a point. The same people who trump the success of allopathic medicine are generally those who turn a blind eye to its side-effects and long-term harm.

@cb: You’re really up yourself, aren’t you? I belong to a couple of Yahoo support groups for my health problems (supraventricular tachycardia & hypothyroidism) and we don’t “whine” – we support each other with advice and suggestions on what works and what doesn’t. I’ve found it very helpful, and I strongly doubt that the majority of us “stuff ourselves with potatoes and gravy” – a healthy diet is a big point amongst us.
But then, I’m not a proud, strong warrior who can cure myself and who doesn’t need no stinkin’ advice.
Mind you, the real warriors I know – I’m talking about the ones who’ve been in the military/police – know from experience that you don’t win any battles by yourself. And they’d laugh at any poser wannabes who go around declaring themselves to be “warriors”.
Oh, and can you tell us what ‘lifestyle choices’ Daniel Hauser made that caused him to develop Hodgkin’s?

Will the government pay for the chemo?

I did a proven protocol for invasive breast cancer, I took the herbs and did the diet, plus exercise, prayer, purest water I could find. My tests were all clear of cancer the following year. I’m getting more tests, to see how I’m still doing. I did nothing else to cure it. I hope I’ve been faithful enough with herbs/diet to stay cancer-free. If not, I will go back to totally healthy eating/living, and get rid of it again. The same way.
Thousands have been healed of cancer thru proven plans of herbs/diet. It’s just ridiculous to assume the American people are such idiots to believe otherwise! Are we assumed to be so stupid that capitalism must murder us, it’s our fate…the chemo/radiation “ovens” that pay our doctor’s med school bills and fill up the cemeteries with our bodies…that there’s no other way? and no way to live well after cancer and live 20-30 years well???
God’s given us what we need to find healing, if we’ll stop being brainwashed and do His herbs and created foods.
Are you so angry and full of dead people’s money, that you continue to spout death and dying on the masses?
If you’ll only find your forgiveness in Jesus Christ, who died for our sins willingly, and then be a fountain of healing and life, it’s so so much better!!! You do have a great future with Him…He is full of life and healing, for you and for all.

It seems to me that it might help for kids with cancer to have peer counselors — other, somewhat older kids (perhaps in their 20s) who’ve survived cancer by going through chemo.

Is this done anywhere?

Let’s play “Spot the Logical Fallacies”! I’ll start.

C B:

Re: compiling stats on altmed for “proof” of their successes. #1: it would be shot down (called unscientific and unreliable) so fast it’s a complete waste of time. MDs don’t want to hear about any “cures” that don’t come out of a pharmaceutical rep’s mouth.

Example of:
Special Pleading
Pharma Shill Gambit

C B, may I remind you that mertie specifically said the plans were proven. That indicates that data was taken, analyzed, and submitted to the cancer treatment community for review in a paper. I simply asked for that documentation.

Please let mertie answer the question herself. She said the plans were proven, it is up to her provide the evidence.

RE: the Pharma Shill Gambit. Think you’ve got me all wrong. 😉 I’m not a conspiracy theorist who thinks MD’s are bought by big pharma. I don’t think the MD’s are really to blame at all. They don’t have control over the education they’re given. And I don’t blame big Pharma either. Hell, everyone is out to make a buck with the product they came up with and I’m not one to blame them.

This is all the result of a broken system. Most MD’s don’t have time to go beyond the info they’re given from a rep because they are too busy trying to see enough patients to pay for their overhead, including skyrocketing malpractice insurance. I’m sure orac is the exception to the rule, just as I’m the exception to the rule when it comes to those trained in western medicine but broke from it. However, the rule is still the rule. There are not enough hours in the day to keep up with what is going on in western medicine, let alone what’s working in altmed, and still actually see and treat patients.

I want to make clear that there are always exceptions to the rule. I was amazingly surprised, and SO THANKFUL, to be referred to a wonderful hospital-based nutritionist who actually gushed about the benefits of sprouting with me. When folks like her are seen as someone respectable who has something helpful to offer they system, instead of a maverick who is passionate about some odd ideas, we will see some real changes and benefits to the health of the American people.

Well, you should know that I always list my weakest arguments first! Are you going to tackle #2 and #3? TIA!

Oh come on, snerd, I answered your “like?” response in the very next line. And I’m boring??? Come on, surely you’ve got more than that for me!

snerd, I said “But it can blind us to methods and treatments that are just as effective but not profitable candidates for study” in the very next line. Obviously, if a treatment is not a candidate for study, it hasn’t been proven to you. That doesn’t mean it’s not effective. As I posted earlier, ginger is now “proven” to lessen nausea from chemo. Most MDs would NEVER tell a patient to try ginger for fear of sounding like a whacko, but now they have some legitimacy through a study. The ginger was just as effective before the study, but most patients would never try it because they don’t look beyond what their MD tells them and the MD didn’t tell them.

Jennifer, have you ever tried to keep a “food diary”? I’m a real believer, I’ve experienced the cause & effect and it’s not something I would ever believe if I hadn’t experienced it myself, and I’m still far from perfect. I try my best every day to document what I put in my mouth and I’m quite sure there are things I miss. So I believe it to be a valid argument in this discussion.

And, while I’m sure you are so tired of defending yourself over & over on this point, I would really like to hear how a study can be performed on altmed procedures without forcing patients to decline certain treatments to focus on others for study purposes. Personally, I employed diet, supplements, and acupuncture within a few weeks of each other and eradicated major symptoms in a very short time but, to this day, do not know where the credit lies. Since our healthcare system does not provide for any altmed treatments and I have to heal myself completely out of pocket, my list of supplements is prioritized and changes on a monthly basis depending on cash flow. Yes, there is a scientific basis to it:
http://www.direct-ms.org/journalarticles.html

Everything the person stated above is true. I was at the trials. Daniel Hauser will win when the case is appealed.
The Judge has clearly broken several laws and U.S treaties. End of story.

Well, to treat my DLBCL (non Hodgkin’s lymphoma) I have undergone 6 rounds of R-CHOP, 2 rounds of RICE and 1 round of high dose Cytoxan in preparation for an autologous SCT, with BEAM chemo and Zevalin radio-immunotherapy to come. I have to admit to researching my suicide options. They come down to two: A) Pentobarbital from Mexico, B) a helium hood from my local source. Chemo sucks. If it works, great, If not… I’m ready.

Well, to treat my DLBCL (non Hodgkin’s lymphoma) I have undergone 6 rounds of R-CHOP, 2 rounds of RICE and 1 round of high dose Cytoxan in preparation for an autologous SCT, with BEAM chemo and Zevalin radio-immunotherapy to come. I have to admit to researching my suicide options. They come down to two: A) Pentobarbital from Mexico, B) a helium hood from my local source. Chemo sucks. If it works, great, If not… I’m ready.

Well, to treat my DLBCL (non Hodgkin’s lymphoma) I have undergone 6 rounds of R-CHOP, 2 rounds of RICE and 1 round of high dose Cytoxan in preparation for an autologous SCT, with BEAM chemo and Zevalin radio-immunotherapy to come. I have to admit to researching my suicide options. They come down to two: A) Pentobarbital from Mexico, B) a helium hood from my local source. Chemo sucks. If it works, great, If not… I’m ready.

Well, to treat my DLBCL (non Hodgkin’s lymphoma) I have undergone 6 rounds of R-CHOP, 2 rounds of RICE and 1 round of high dose Cytoxan in preparation for an autologous SCT, with BEAM chemo and Zevalin radio-immunotherapy to come. I have to admit to researching my suicide options. They come down to two: A) Pentobarbital from Mexico, B) a helium hood from my local source. Chemo sucks. If it works, great, If not… I’m ready.

Well, to treat my DLBCL (non Hodgkin’s lymphoma) I have undergone 6 rounds of R-CHOP, 2 rounds of RICE and 1 round of high dose Cytoxan in preparation for an autologous SCT, with BEAM chemo and Zevalin radio-immunotherapy to come. I have to admit to researching my suicide options. They come down to two: A) Pentobarbital from Mexico, B) a helium hood from my local source. Chemo sucks. If it works, great, If not… I’m ready.

Well, to treat my DLBCL (non Hodgkin’s lymphoma) I have undergone 6 rounds of R-CHOP, 2 rounds of RICE and 1 round of high dose Cytoxan in preparation for an autologous SCT, with BEAM chemo and Zevalin radio-immunotherapy to come. I have to admit to researching my suicide options. They come down to two: A) Pentobarbital from Mexico, B) a helium hood from my local source. Chemo sucks. If it works, great, If not… I’m ready.

Well, to treat my DLBCL (non Hodgkin’s lymphoma) I have undergone 6 rounds of R-CHOP, 2 rounds of RICE and 1 round of high dose Cytoxan in preparation for an autologous SCT, with BEAM chemo and Zevalin radio-immunotherapy to come. I have to admit to researching my suicide options. They come down to two: A) Pentobarbital from Mexico, B) a helium hood from my local source. Chemo sucks. If it works, great, If not… I’m ready.

Well, to treat my DLBCL (non Hodgkin’s lymphoma) I have undergone 6 rounds of R-CHOP, 2 rounds of RICE and 1 round of high dose Cytoxan in preparation for an autologous SCT, with BEAM chemo and Zevalin radio-immunotherapy to come. I have to admit to researching my suicide options. They come down to two: A) Pentobarbital from Mexico, B) a helium hood from my local source. Chemo sucks. If it works, great, If not… I’m ready.

T.H. Thank you for stepping to the plate. Alopathic medicine is responsible for numerous dealths as well as drug
poisoning. Remember Tony Snow… For those who are absent in memory he was the White house Press Secretary who doctors said had died of colon cancer but didn’t have a colon cause they took it out.

It is unfortunate that many rely on so called medical science alone that can’t even address the common cold.

Science has it’s place however, if science where always right we would not have an epedimic of chronic disorders.

The rule of true health is knowledge of the cause.

Alternative medicine not only seeks the cause but seeks to bring the body back to homeostasis – the state in which illness cannot — I repeat — cannot — persist.

To achieve that state Wholistic Medicine looks at the “whole” being along with their environment”.

In doing so you achieve a permenant resolve. “Body Machanics” cure nothing. When a cure is achieved it is by the body and support of it’s whole system.

Alopathic medicine is still in it’s premative state as such the result is high levels of chronic disease and sickness accepted as normal.

When will people wake-up.

Here is a exercise for all you “doctors are God” believers that science is never wrong!

Only 10 percent of all cells in the body are human — so what is the rest?

Those who find the answer don’t need to be a rocket scientist to understand if anything should happen to that child the Parents should be allowed to sue first the Judge that ordered what he is not in a position to Judge and second the doctors that followed through with such premative treatment.

Micki I applaud you for your courage. I know hundreds of people who have overcome cancer by understanding the cause and addressing what changes they needed to make to restore homeostasis in the their body, with the result of good health.

When homeostasis is restored, health is restored in all disorders not 10% or 20% but 100%. When doctors are taught to communicate effectively with the body the body can tell them what is the problem 100% of the time.
Here is that kind of communication at the basic level.
http://www.yonemoto.com/programs/imt.htm

The point is Alopathic medicine has a monopoly on treatment using the legal system and “so-called science”. If health is to be achieved for the masses it will require all modalities of healthcare to be acknowledged and funded in research.

Still no Judge has the right to decide what treatment is appropriate for a parent’s child simply because the AMA says that is the only treatment.

Wake-up people! Do your homework and stop watching the boobtube that’s scrambling your ability think for yourself.

This child is illiterate. His parents claimed to homeschool him and did not give him the most basic necessary information– the ability to read. He has no concept of math, statistics… I would argue that the AVERAGE 13-year-old is capable of making some decisions regarding healthcare, but not an illiterate child unable to do basic arithmetic or understand the most simple principles of biology.

His opinion on the matter needs to be discarded. And considering his parents lied to the government (claiming they were homeschooling) so they could deny him an education, they should be considered abusive. I wouldn’t recommend taking him away for the healthcare issues alone, but this child has been SEVERELY neglected. He has no education, no access to medical care, has been instilled with a deep fear of both and will never, ever amount to anything unless he is immediately removed from that environment and forced to go to school, assuming he survives the cancer. He can’t even sell the Nemeneah medicines because he is unable to read and write. He will never be able to leave the group because he cannot survive without people to translate street signs and pamphlets for him.

If a normal 13 year old who was well taken care of, and his loving, caring parents, decided that cancer treatment wasn’t worth the cost, I could understand siding with them and their rights. But to allow abusively neglectful parents and an illiterate uneducated child to decide such a thing is tantamount to letting a six-year-old refuse transport to the hospital and care there after her father violently broke her arm.

C B, there is so much crazy, I really can’t bear to address it all. But there is one little pet peeve of mine I have to tackle.

You claimed that any solid, scientific research demonstrating the effectiveness of altmed would be aggressively suppressed and censored…that no journal would publish it, etc. NO. Nuh-uh. Not gonna fly today. Let me ask you something, C B: Do you know what the Internet is? Do you know what the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine is? Do you know who Kevin Trudeau is? How about Jenny McCarthy? Jim Carrey? Ariana Huffington? Oprah Winfrey?

You see, C B, the problem here is that there is no excuse left today for claiming censorship and suppression of CAM. Anyone can publish anything on the Intertubes, and there are a number of prominent sites that would be happy to host and promote the research results. As for funding, there are plenty of well-heeled advocates, nevermind a significant government program that is becoming increasingly hostile to concepts like rigor. If the data’s there, there is no longer an excuse for hiding it.

As for your other comments: You really are clueless about science. I’m actually seeing a lot of God-of-the-gaps in your arguments. Interesting…especially considering most of the gaps you hide CAM in aren’t gaps at all. A lot of what you think science can’t study, it can.

I did a proven protocol for invasive breast cancer, I took the herbs and did the diet, plus exercise, prayer, purest water I could find. My tests were all clear of cancer the following year. I’m getting more tests, to see how I’m still doing. I did nothing else to cure it. I hope I’ve been faithful enough with herbs/diet to stay cancer-free. If not, I will go back to totally healthy eating/living, and get rid of it again. The same way.
Thousands have been healed of cancer thru proven plans of herbs/diet.

Do tell. Who are these “thousands”? Where is the documentation. Rest assured, if thousands had truly been “cured” by such regimens, medical science would sit up and take notice. Not surprisingly , whenever anyone tries to investigate these claims scientifically, they can never seem to find all these “thousands” of people.

But let’s get to the nitty gritty. What size was your tumor? Were your lymph nodes positive. How, exactly, was your cancer diagnosed? What kind of biopsy was done? Do you have the pathology report? What was the histology? What tests are currently showing you to be “free of cancer”? Answer those questions, and I may start to take your testimonial more seriously.

My degree is a lowly B.A., I have a bro. who’s an atty, and etc. My daughter is a nurse. However, if I myself were in the cancer treating medical community, this is why I (without Christ Jesus) would not acknowledge actual cures existed:
(1.) I would hate to admit I’d been wrong and thousands had perished because of it, for decades.
(2.) I and the rest would lose TONS of money in all the facets of “cancer treatments”, should the cures be acknowledged publicly.I’d have to actually love people and their health, more than the money in my pocket.
And don’t a great God’s herbs/diet look “stupid” next to man’s great machines and knowledge? Well, we were all there, once.
Here is some work for you to do: Google… “Essiac”, and go to http://www.beating-cancer-gently.com. Also, google “Dr. Budwig”, “Dr. Brandt”…for starters! You don’t want to take everything in at once. The grief of realizing that the death and dying that’s going on, is because of raw capitalism and ignorance, not illness, is heartbreaking.
As for the particulars on the cancer I had, without the papers at hand, I can say it was a 9 mm tumor, a “needle” biopsy was done, it was invasive, and etc. The tests done were first a bloodtest, CA 27 29, a mammogram and an ultrasound. All clear. I would love your scrutiny! Let the challenge begin! You do your homework, I’ll do mine, by God’s grace.

Happeh…James Randi has a video explaining why his channel was taken off youtube. He says it was all done properly over concerns about copyrighted material. He emphasizes it was all on the up and up. Check out his video on youtube suspension where he says…

“As you can see, no one was attacking us, and no one acted unfairly – the complainants were within their rights, and YouTube acted according to their rules. In fact, when we started conversing with one of the complainants and with YouTube, everyone acted in a civilized and even friendly manner. The matter was resolved quickly and, I think, to everyone’s satisfaction.”

Mertle, firstly, you’re right, God has given us the right herbs to cure ourselves – and also the intelligence to design study trials to work out which treatments are actually beneficial and which aren’t. And the capability to isolate the chemical components of those herbs and use only the ones that treat the disease – which is why we can take penicillin rather than eating the fungus that produces it.

Secondly – some of the reasons you’ve given for doctors to not acknowledge cancer cures are plausible – not the one about avoiding diet/herbs because “great God’s herbs/diet look “stupid” next to man’s great machines and knowledge? Well, we were all there, once”

Diet is a modality used by ‘conventional’ medicine. And as for ‘us all being their once’ – no, plenty of doctors are religious, you can’t ascribe your previous views to ‘all’ of everyone else.

What you say about doctors not wanting to kill the cash cow of cancer treatment is certainly possible. However you’re overlooking the fact that the person/team who makes the discovery will earn themselves a position in history. If the treatment is cheap to produce, say herbal, and effective – all that is needed is a verifiable study published in a medical journal and the cure will be out there – if there is a purified form that’s more effective then the pharmacological company that produces the drugs will make billions.

And as T. Bruce McNeely says, there is a history of discoveries in medicine that eliminate established treatments – that is the way of progressive science, previous stopgaps and treatments for diseases and the symptoms people suffer from them fade away when they’re no longer necessary.

Mertle @138

without the papers at hand, I can say it was a 9 mm tumor, a “needle” biopsy was done, it was invasive, and etc. The tests done were first a bloodtest, CA 27 29, a mammogram and an ultrasound. All clear. I would love your scrutiny! Let the challenge begin! You do your homework, I’ll do mine,

In addition to the others, you could do your homework by answering the specific questions of Orac at 136. Etc. is not an answer. Nor is it clear which parts are pre and post self treatment. So, if your statement about “love your scrutiny!” is true, then I am sure you will be forthcoming.

At the same time you could address the observation of T. Bruce McNeely “It’s also interesting that you reject modern medicine for treatment, but you have trusted and taken full advantage of it for diagnosis.” That includes, for me, your observations on “radiation ovens” and what your concerns would be from the ionizing radiation from your mammogram(s).

So as not to comment before confirmation, please provide complete names for the doctors. For Budwig I got “Dr Johanna Budwig diet – Cancer, Arthritis, Multiple sclerosis, Psoriasis, Eczema, Acne, … Flaxseed oil and cottage cheese”

For Brandt, a dermatologist, Dr. Fredric Brandt, who’s publications in PubMed are under, Brandt FS, who may or not be the same person, but I see nothing about what you are writing about.

“Well, yikes. I thought I had come across a site frequented by folks who could give a good debate. Instead, I find them lowering themselves to name-calling and sarcasm.”

Thats because you aren’t capable of giving a good debate and have shown yourself to be a complete fool.

The ‘doctors are evil disgusting monsters and the government is run by Hitler’ crowd has been asked to present some sort of evidence for their position that isn’t absolute crap but hasn’t.

There’s a shocker./sarcasm

Well Chris if you are distracted by typos apposed to the meaning then you present well that is the way you probably think and yes from watching the boobtube (TV) which millions still do to their detriment.

But I do stand corrected nonetheless that the spelling was incorrect.

Again to define the word allopathic, again you are presenting your narrow-minded short-sighted position. Allopathic is “so-called conventional medicine”. By the way in the US TCM is not considered conventional medicine because primitive science can’t figure out how it works.

Even acupuncture, which has become acceptable, is only a small part of TCM. The system in which TCM is based on, divination, to this day so called modern science cannot figure out.

The sad truth is science alone ignores things it can’t understand and adopts only what it can understand. I call that partially informed. Without being fully informed we have situations where people are treated for Ulcers with psychology, until science can catch up and identify the cause. Only then can allopathic medicine stop shooting in the dark as it is doing with this kid. It appears the kid is in remission without Chemo — perhaps what he is doing is working.

This is like seeing an elephant’s tail and calling it a snake cause you have not advanced in your vision to see the whole.

Right now there are studies that show something as common as high blood pressure is being treated with medication that actually cause more sickness resulting in renal failure in many cases. No wonder there are so many people in the dialysis (AMA cash cow) shop after being forced to take beta blockers.

Either you know what the cause is or you don’t. If you don’t then your not in a position to tell others how to deal with something.

Again doctors nor science cure nothing. The human body when brought to a state of homeostasis cures and I repeat cures all illnesses every time, 100%.

Many doctors know this in the US, but have not the courage to state such and promote it as they might just lose their privileged MD (license to play God).

I rest my case.

And yes, T. Bruce McNeely ,we have conquered or we thought, infectious disease with the magic pill, only to create problems else where in the body in the form of Chronic disorders, which via the Genome Project we are finally learning. Methicillin-resistant staph, have you heard of it? That’s not the only one – just the most popular and prevalent. What about Swine Flu 2, the one that affects humans, and the media is having a hyper-feast with.

Regarding, Autism with vaccines, the verdict is not in. Like medical science you make judgment on something before you get all the facts it seems. Give it time and you may live to eat your judgement or be like Obama, know what your talking about before you open your mouth in writing. Stop watching the boob Tube as it’s scrambling your electromagnet waves to your brain. You need to operate from the part of your brain that can make good and clear judgements. Oh, you wouldn’t know about that cause Medical Science is still too primitive to prove that, right?

We have epedemics in diabetes, heart disorders, arthritis and the list goes on…. So despite living longer we live sicker. I think it is over 36 million in the US that receive SS disability, that’s higher than unemployment. What has Medical Science done with that and it is growing at an alarming rate. By the way you have to be near dead to get those benefits.

Again as I have stated until we get with how the body works and stop telling it how to work we will continue in darkness and great suffering dispite high intellects.

Real science says if you do xyz you will get abc so stop doing xyz. Modern science say if you do xyz you can keep doing xyz and we will just work on 123 causes we don’t understand xyz. If it doesn’t fit in their box then it’s not considered. Hopefully with the Genome Project we will start seeing some real science and start seeing clinical results by spending more time learning the language of the human body and fulfilling what it asked to stay in a state of homeostasis.

Understand me. I am not against science. But, let’s get some real science that can take in consideration all factors leading to a disposition. At present Medical Science as we know it is far from that and as many have stated highly politicized.

tumaat:

Well Chris if you are distracted by typos

Once is a “typo”, more than that is a sign of being clueless. Which is shown with more clueless statements that follow with your claims without evidence on vaccine, autism, heart disorders (by the way one of the results of living longer is that fewer people die from disease, and die of diseases of the elderly like heart disease, arthritis and cancer), and on and on.

“Don’t get so carried away by those so deep in the forest they can even see the trees.”

Only YOU can prevent forest fires!

And by the way, I was diagnosed with a needle biopsy at this wonderful place I work for and underwent a lumpectomy. I did not let them take my lymph nodes. Cancer was later found in the lymph node, I then went to Mexico. I still follow with tests at both facilities. The lymph nodes are clear.

Excellent. The lumpectomy cured you, not the quackery in Mexico. I’m very happy. By the way, if they didn’t take your lymph nodes, how do you know cancer was later found in a lymph node?

Mertle @ 147

Sorry to reply this late, but I missed your post for whatever reason.

please forgive me, where I have offended you.

Not the least bit offended, learning the latest alt med is not something that can be found easily on google. It is your life you are playing with.

Thermography and blood test would have been sufficient

You have to get the basics right. Thermography, like mammography is a screening tool. Thermography identifies abnormal physiological changes in your breasts that may be cancerous. Mammography identifies certain structures in the breast that can potentially be cancer, and your link adds nothing. With both mammography and thermography, definitive diagnosis is done by other procedures such as a biopsy or lumpectomy. Blood testing is another screen ( except those of blood ) which could indicate cancer, such as breast cancer, not diagnostic of.

metal chip they left in me has caused me trouble

Does not seem plausible.

plus the word testimonies and read carefully

Testimonials is not science, is not evidence, studies nothing, is not anything except a recounting of a personal experience based on the perception and knowledge base of the raconteur.

Essiac testimonies

Was answered by Chris @143

Dr. Johanna Brandt

Was not a doctor of anything and the “Johanna Brandt Grape Cure for Cancer” is something stronger than nonsense. The chemistry, biology and description of grape composition are almost completely wrong.

Dr. Johanna Budwig

This diet of flaxseed oil and cottage cheese is almost equivalent to Brandt

go locate mis papeles to see what I can share regarding diagnosis and biopsy

Waiting

Automandc @ 161
I stopped reading TH @125 after the first sentence of the second paragraph, as it descended into bullshit baffles brains, or in another way, had a troll label attached to it.
Consider the following quotes:
The Nemenhah Band and Native American Traditional Organization (Oklevueha Native American Church of Sanpete) was formed, not by incorporation, which is the method utilized in other state laws to form a church, but rather by declaration, as is also provided in Utah State Law. As such, it is not a commerce or fee-based association or club. It is a Native American Church and Indigenous Group with a Permanent Membership which supports the Band and its official programs through generous offerings and donations at various levels of its organization.
Source: http://blog.nemenhah.org/
The constitution was approved by the General Assembly this Nineteenth (19) day of February, 2008, A.D.
Source: http://www.nemenhah.org/images/pdf/NemenhahConstitution08.pdf
Phillip ‘Cloudpiler’ Landis, NAP, ND, was elected to the position of Principle Medicine Chief and has been re-elected every year since then by the unanimous vote of the yearly Great Council of the Nemenhah.
Source: http://www.nemenhah.org/internal/about_us.html
The Nemenhah Band has no assets or property
Source: http://blog.nemenhah.org/
Phillip Ried Landis was born to Anola Jewel Bird and Ivan E. ‘Ike’ Catherman – son of Pawna Tawny, listed in the 1900 Nez Perce Census (US). Legally adopted at age four by John C. Landis.
Given the name “Hemen Ot To-oh-yelo Akekt” by Five Eagles, Medicine Man of the Yakima and Wanapum People (now deceased).
Graduated 1979 – Hanford High School, Richland, WA.
Naturopathic Doctorate – Herbal Healer Academy, AK – 1999
ANMCAB National Board Certificate (under tutelage of Don Hayhurst) – Naturopath – 2000
Convicted – 2000 – Montana – Deceptive Business Practices/Theft by Deception – 30 days in County Jail, Two Concurrent Judgments of 10 years – Suspended.
Convicted 2001 – Idaho – Same Case as above – Later Dismissed.
Blessed and Appointed President and CEO of the Oklevueha Native American Church of Sanpete (Sanhempet) “For As Long As He Walks Mother Earth” – 2003 – Oklevueha Native American Church of Utah.Elected Principle Medicine Chief of the Nemenhah Band and Native American Traditional Organization – 2003 – Mother’s Council of the Nemenhah.
Source: http://blog.nemenhah.org/?page_id=2
Our Mission is to provide a safety net for Natural Healers by effectively bringing the Sacred back into Natural Healing. We concentrate our efforts in the Healing of the Body Physical, the Body Familial, the Body Societal and the Whole Earth.
Source: http://www.nemenhah.org/internal/about_us.html
In summary, this naturopath Cloudpiler, set up an organization solely to sell his brand of woo, and protect himself from any recrimination or legal repercussions. All the religious considerations is merely a smokescreen that has nearly worked in killing a child. Correct me, with reasons, if you think I am wrong.

Well, Bruce as you have said very little of relevance I will take your recent comments as having very little relevance as well.

Often folks that make irrelevant comments, are often devoid of anything meaningful in their life, much less the mind. It would appear that might be you. But, only you can answer that, right?

Peace

@CB: “Sophia, don’t take anything personally just because you have chronic conditions and have not yet cured yourself. ”
I told you what my conditions were – look them up (that’s what the internet is for). They certainly can’t be cured by herbs and diet. (I’m still waiting for you to tell us what your condition is, btw.)
I keep myself informed on my conditions, and before I take any new prescribed drug I check it on the internet, ask about it on my support groups as well as discuss it with my doctor. Unlike you, I regard my doctor – and all doctors, in fact – as colleagues and helpers in keeping me alive and healthy. While I’m the expert on my own body, doctors have a wealth of knowledge and experience in dealing with bodies that I cannot hope to equal. I’ve yet to meet a ‘natural healer’ who knows even as much as I do about how my body works – that’s why I go to the medics instead.

Finally, a little OT: there really should be an internet law that deals with the assumption that everybody in the world lives in America. Any suggestions for a name?

How can this site be naturally selected by evolution? That sounds like insolence.

This case and the others like them are violations of basic human rights, plain and simple. The expected outcome is irrelevant. The child does not want the treatment. The family does not want the treatment. The state has no right to browbeat what they feel to be the correct medical decision on anyone.

They also lost the only chance they had at the family deciding that they would like the treatment for the child, or for the child to go along with it. Congratulations, now he really will die.

Freedom means real freedom, including the freedom to royally fuck up or make a decision out of fear. Our entire government is out of control on the level of authority they want to have over families, all for the “state interest” that they want more happy good tax payers in the future.

I have written about this issue on my blog, and reference yours.

http://leafsofchange.blogspot.com/2009/05/court-forces-minnesota-teen-into-cancer.html

Has anyone hear about many, many , many people beating cancer with nutrition and alternative therapy? Traditional surgery/chemo/radiation don’t address the cause of cancer and that is it is always comes back. Nutrition and alternative treatment do. Read books of Kris Carr and David J. Fraham. My friend lives with cancer past his “due” day. If he had not refused traditional treatment, he would have been dead 4 years ago.What a shame that government intervenes. I will pray for Daniel. Run mother, run

I am not religious , nor am I a lawyer, or a doctor but it seems to me , that if all the people judges lawyers doctors and clergy really want to walk their talk on this , they would pony up and pay every cent of the medical expenses since they are forcing him and his family to go against what they believe , of course lets not go there either . It also sounds like , they ( meaning the professionals in the medical community ) didnt spend enough time explaining what the treatment was and what it was all about, and what he would go through and how he would feel BEFORE the child underwent his first chemo treatment . I doubt they counseled him or his family longer then a 20 minute session or two adequate by whose standard? . I doubt they provided support ( meaning no appt necessary) for the questions that would obviously arise . A pretty heartless bunch of phonies to not take this childs emotions into consideration and disregard his families feelings as well.

Now being forced to undergo this and possibly lose his family whom he loves because they believe differently then you or I , be put into foster care and create more hardship for them then they deserve, I hope he lives and is healed without it ! So if there is prayer thats my prayer .

These laws need to be changed . Its their choice, not yours mine or anyone else’s. A 13 yr old not so very long ago was more of a man then most are today at thirty , regardless of education or stature many were put in situations of great responsibility.
Lets all save everybody they cry but wont help them when they run out of $$$ . There is a real dark side to hospitals and the way they manipulate the system for those who can pay vrs those who cant then when your loved one is denied treatment or even released before they are ready to go home ( because they state run insurance wont cover it or their own insurance wont cover it ) and youve spent every dime you have then “its gods will ” ? What crock , I hope the kid lives !

I am sorry # 150, I meant I am with you. So said that people are stupid. Well, they deserve what they get. Some cancers, left alone, will remain dormant and never cause any problems. If you start chemo.surgery/radiation, you will sure die rather sooner.

Sam, the question is how do you know that any one commenter is a certain nationality? With the double “aa” in his name tumaat could just as well be Dutch. Declaring all the persons in the third largest country by population with one single attribute is not very bright either.

A kid named Billy Best ran away from home in the 90s to avoid chemo and made it on Inside Edition. He took a natural treatment called 714-X and something called Essiac Tea: all natural. This 90 percent chance of a cure crap they keep slinging around about chemo is a lie. Just think of the “Cancer Treatment Centers of America” ad on TV all the time now. I’m talking about the one where “Peggy” talks about her encounter with a doctor who told her she had no “expiration date.” This case illustrates what’s wrong with the justice system and health care in the same breath. Sad for America, I think. I took 714-X myself as a preventive for cancer. I only know the Billy Best story because my cousin talked to him before she took it when doctors gave her only three weeks to live after rigorous traditional treatment. About a month after she started treatment, my 7 year old cousin was riding in the family car when a bunch of puss just ooozed out her ear. The tumor behind her nose had simply dissolved and leaked out her ear canal, and a subsequent test proved it. She is healthy and in her 20s today. Go to http://www.suckssite.com if you have something like this to protest and learn what it takes to get your message out and protect your campaign in court if you have to.

No one has the right to tell you what to put in your body and what not to. Choice… I respect the choice of this young man! I respect the choice of his parents… If this was happening in my family… I would try other means before I resorted to Chemo, and that would be for my children as well, and we have the right to make that choice. FREEDOOOOOOMMMMM FREEEEDOMMMM FREEEEDOOOOM!

@185 Did you know that many successful and famous people grew up with learning disabilities (LD) and/or Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (AD/HD)? Actor Danny Glover, business leader Charles Schwab,and celebrity designer Ty Pennington, to name a few. Here’s some more. Albert Einstein, Nelson Rockefeller, Galileo, Thomas Edison Sylvester Stallone, Mozart, Gen. George Patton, Wright Brothers Leonardo da Vinci, John F. Kennedy, Cher, Whoopi Goldberg, Bruce Jenner, Gen. Westmoreland, Tom Cruise, Eddie Rickenbacker, Charles Schwab, Henry Winkler, Harry Belafonte, Danny Glover, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Walt Disney, John Lennon, Robin Williams, Steve McQueen Greg Louganis, Louis Pasteur. I could go on with more but learning disabilities is not a “litmus test” of one’s ability to
understand and grow. So let’s put this learning disability thing to rest.

Intellect is valuable but as proven over and over again there is more to being human than just pure intellect.

I did share this @159, freely. Those of you who are smart enough to see truth when placed before you will take this and investigate it more thoroughly, instead of looking for misspelled words and grammatical errors in posts.

My point. Most people, unfortunately, have failed to tap their innate abilities and gifts that to this day science cannot, measure, quantify, dissect or understand. As such when presented with anything other than what science has deemed acceptable can not even process. The though of such creates confusion is their undeveloped mind. Should we negate the evidence of alternatives to politically motivated, so-called scientific views, simply because modern science can not figure it out, or is only particially informed?

My friends a truth does not change. If it is correct it will not change. But mordern science is filled with findings that seem to change daily.

Again, @152 all I am saying is science alone is not a sufficient basis upon which to judge.

@184 I can’t agree more with you. However I am sorry for the mother and child who have now had to resort to such drastic measures to protect their rights. This is really sad. I think we are trully moving towards a police state in the US and that is frightening. The implecations of this case are enormous. One day we may wake to saying to our grand children I remember when we had freedom.

Peace

In response to aftercancer’s comment: “I don’t know what the legal mechanisms should be but I want to give this kid chemo and lots of it, until he is “cancer free” or in remission. Then he can grow up and hate the government or become a homeopathic doctor if he wants but at least he’ll get to grow up.”

Or … maybe in a few years, if he’s forced to go through treatment unwillingly, he’ll obtain some guns & ammo, and maybe even a few bombs. He’ll go on a shooting rampage at the hospital where he was forced into treatment, taking quite a few lives before turning a gun on himself and pulling the trigger. It’s unfortunate, but I feel that I *have* to point this out. Taking people’s power away, like that judge in Minnesota wants to do, often has extremely nasty consequences. I know that my example is pretty extreme, but people can’t assume that this kid is going to take such a thing in stride and grow up to be a mild-mannered libertarian or naturopath either.

As usual, religion is seen as leading to irrational choices. Ironically, one of your more famous atheist intellectuals, Bill Maher, has come out against medicine such as aspirin, claiming it’s poisonous. Maher also told David Letterman not to take his medication after the latter had undergone quadruple heart bypass surgery for similar reasons. Yet you atheists talk about religion as if not only is it only religion irrational, but also that it is the only irrational thing thing in the world. As if you getting rid of religion will somehow bring about a utopia. But how can you atheists be so sure you are not the irrational ones? Many of you atheists sound like you would get rid of religious people by any means necessary if you had the chance.

Consider this situation:

My son was born blind (anophthalmia) with a bilateral cleft lip and palate. He has since been diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome and epilepsy.

He is now 22, and has had numerous surgeries to correct the clefts, but still needs major surgery to his nose to look relatively ‘normal’, and requires veneers on his malformed teeth.

His surgeon is giving him the choice as to whether he has a ‘nose job’, (albeit major surgery) in such a way that makes me want to swoon over doctors that deal with ‘kids in crisis’. Without any posturing or domineering, he has convinced my son that surgery for his nose is the best thing for him.

For this, I am really grateful. I am a scientist (PhD in epidemiology), and a mother. I need and want the medical community to help my child and others like him to live and grow.

@191 Chris my darling, are you in the playground again?
I was justifying my point, so I asked you the same question you asked Sam, but it seems to have eluded you mind.

Nonetheless, thanks for attempting to defend me but it appears I am quite capable of that.

By the way did you miss this…

@178 I am sorry # 150, I meant I am with you. So said that people are stupid. Well, they deserve what they get. Some cancers, left alone, will remain dormant and never cause any problems. If you start chemo.surgery/radiation, you will sure die rather sooner.

Posted by: Sam | May 19, 2009 9:06 PM

You’ve got to look outside the box sometimes,amigos 😉

Peace

Correction @196

You’ve got to look outside the box sometimes,amigos/a 😉

Peace

How dehydrated do you have to be before you will consent to drink from a source which has toxins that could cause you various cancers, liver, heart, spleen, or other organ damage, immune suppression, breathing problems, sterility, or even death, and is not 100 percent guaranteed to hydrate you? What if you decide to try something else, but a judge tells you to drink that swill under penalty of the law? This is the best analagy of chemo I can come up with at the moment. It is a horible decision cancer patients face every day. Each person is an individual, and statistics are general. They do not include numbers of people who died from what the chemo did to them, only those who did not die from the cancer. They do not guarantee a cure, a healthy life after treatment, or even longevity, and they do not guarantee no recurrence. Chemo is awful to endure, and I cut my own treatment short due to this fact. Your body knows this is poison, and mentally overcoming the instinct to run is a job in itself. I had five out of eight rounds before my instincts won out, and I am so glad. After I quit, it turned out my body had been so battered that more chemo probably would have killed me. I was hospitalized on IV nutrion for 10 days with a colon infection and possible perforation, and barely escaped surgery to give me a colostomy, perhaps even take part of my colon. I am a year and a half out from my chemo and a bit over a year from radiation, and still waiting for normal bloodwork, still disabled by fatigue and lack of stamina, among other things. After I endured what I did endure, I was told new studies are showing the chemo probably didn’t help my form of cancer after all. It affected my heart, my bone marrow, and who knows what else–I will find out down the line. And no one can tell me if it did anything against recurrence. It is all guesswork. I don’t know what the treatment is for this boy, and maybe it is nothing that will work, but I just have to support anyone’s decision not to endure chemotherapy, and to realize that whatever they face because of that, it is their decision. It is not anyone else’s place to force chemo on anyone who does not want it. Mushrooms do have a lot of amazing effects on health, and echinacea is something I used myself (short term–be careful and do research) to help boost my immune system after chemo. There are studies that are starting to show results with natural treatments, and if anything, the judge should appoint a panel of naturopaths to oversee this boy’s treatment accordingly, and not force him to undergo a toxic treatment he does not want. Please, please, don’t make this about religion or pass judgement on what you know so little about. Stop calling the mother ignorant. Why should she come back to this kind of reception? Work out a solution she and her boy can endure, and give it a chance to work.

How dehydrated do you have to be before you will consent to drink from a source which has toxins that could cause you various cancers, liver, heart, spleen, or other organ damage, immune suppression, breathing problems, sterility, or even death, and is not 100 percent guaranteed to hydrate you? What if you decide to try something else, but a judge tells you to drink that swill under penalty of the law? This is the best analagy of chemo I can come up with at the moment. It is a horible decision cancer patients face every day. Each person is an individual, and statistics are general. They do not include numbers of people who died from what the chemo did to them, only those who did not die from the cancer. They do not guarantee a cure, a healthy life after treatment, or even longevity, and they do not guarantee no recurrence. Chemo is awful to endure, and I cut my own treatment short due to this fact. Your body knows this is poison, and mentally overcoming the instinct to run is a job in itself. I had five out of eight rounds before my instincts won out, and I am so glad. After I quit, it turned out my body had been so battered that more chemo probably would have killed me. I was hospitalized on IV nutrion for 10 days with a colon infection and possible perforation, and barely escaped surgery to give me a colostomy, perhaps even take part of my colon. I am a year and a half out from my chemo and a bit over a year from radiation, and still waiting for normal bloodwork, still disabled by fatigue and lack of stamina, among other things. After I endured what I did endure, I was told new studies are showing the chemo probably didn’t help my form of cancer after all. It affected my heart, my bone marrow, and who knows what else–I will find out down the line. And no one can tell me if it did anything against recurrence. It is all guesswork. I don’t know what the treatment is for this boy, and maybe it is nothing that will work, but I just have to support anyone’s decision not to endure chemotherapy, and to realize that whatever they face because of that, it is their decision. It is not anyone else’s place to force chemo on anyone who does not want it. Mushrooms do have a lot of amazing effects on health, and echinacea is something I used myself (short term–be careful and do research) to help boost my immune system after chemo. There are studies that are starting to show results with natural treatments, and if anything, the judge should appoint a panel of naturopaths to oversee this boy’s treatment accordingly, and not force him to undergo a toxic treatment he does not want. Please, please, don’t make this about religion or pass judgement on what you know so little about. Stop calling the mother ignorant. Why should she come back to this kind of reception? Work out a solution she and her boy can endure, and give it a chance to work.

Orac, go fuck yourself in the ass for saying that children are immature. Maturity is earned through life experiences, not given automatically based on age. I am 12, and i have had three surgeries and was in horrible pain.

So wait, a parent can only make an informed decision that isn’t really a decision? Basically, you’re saying if they don’t do what you think they should do then they’re wrong? So there is no “choice”. A parent MUST choose chemo, period? If a child cannot make an informed choice then it’s up to the parents to make the choice, but when the parents make the same choice that the child makes then……they’re what, stupid? Is that what i’m getting from this?

It is an undisputable fact that chemotherapy will kill the individual if given long enough and that successful treatment is the ability to kill the cancer cells off before the patient. Chemotherapy destroys the immune system, weakening the individual to fight other threats including a reocurrence of cancer.

There is some debate here but not nearly enough on the validity of alternative, natural treatments to cancer that are both effective and safer than chemotherapy. No doubt those not versed in natural therapies and basing much of their opinion and knowledge on what is spoon fed to them by the media (funded by pharmaceutical drug companies) are not going to respect a parent’s right to choose non-chemical approaches to curing cancer. However, it is a viable choice that everyone should consider if they are to make an informed decision on treating any disease.

This story is picked apart by those with half-truths and misinformation, judging caring parents. Are we really to believe a good parent seeing their child suffer would allow him to choose no treatment if they believe this route will most likely kill him? Obviously, there is much at play here that we do not understand and it is none of our business.

If we wish to debate the unnecessary death of children in this country we should look at all that medicine is doing wrong, taking the lives of many due to medical mistakes such as allergic reactions by infants to ingredients found in vaccines — too many given and given too early in a child’s life.

I am a libertarian who believes gunpoint medicine is something that should terrify every parent in this country. I am just shocked how few look at this story as one of interference in a parent’s choice.

In this country, people just don’t know the medical level natural therapy (besides vitamins). In China, TCM doctors cured cancer with herbs and acupuncture therapy.

You left out the dried bear gall bladder, beating cobra heart and Siberian tiger penis in you list of effective TCM.

Who CARES why they don’t want to undergo the treatment? Shouldn’t it be up to the patient and their family? They know the risks; know that it could cost him his life. HE is willing to take that risk, and so are they. He’s not a 5 year old child; he’s a young man. Forcing medical treatment on someone is a slippery slope.

I think you are totally wrong and have no right to say what you have just wrote. Daniel’s refusal to chemotherapy had NOTHING to do with chemotherapy. My father is Daniel Hauser’s primary care physician. Chemotherapy does not cure as you said, so why have it. It causes so much unbearable pain and physical and emotional distress. Instead, the Hauser’s were leaning more towards alternative medicine such as Vitamin C therapy. This therapy is very cheap to the patient. It costs 20 times less than the average round of chemotherapy. You can look it up if you want. It also has a higher chance of curing cancer. Chemotherapy does not. There are no unbearable side-effects. Maybe a few red patches on the skin and loose stools. But if the patient is ill enough, these symptoms won’t occur because all of the Vit. C is being absorbed.
Also, when a Doctor gives a round of chemotherapy, they are making several thousand dollars. Compare this to a doctor who gives a round of Vit. C therapy ($150). Chemotherapy is a huge money maker for the doctor and hospital, while Vit. C therapy not. Now you tell me what is wrong with this picture. Know your facts and understand the truth before you write and criticize.

Know your facts and understand the truth before you write and criticize.

FACT: Vitamin C therapy may be “cheap,” but it has not been demonstrated to be efficacious in treating Hodgkin’s lymphoma.

…try taking your own advice.

I think you underplay how difficult chemotherapy is. My son had cancer at 2 — Burkitt’s lymphoma. The High Dose Methotrexate gave him a severe stroke and he suffered for months from the chemo and the chemo alone. When he had his stroke, his own doctors at first thought the chemo and couldn’t be the cause. They wanted to continue with the chemo schedule but we pushed back and said “no”, not until you find out why he had the stroke. Eventually they honed in on the methotrexate and reworked his protocol to eliminate that drug. If we hadn’t pushed, another dose would have killed him. If the doctors hadn’t been willing to listen to us and work with us, we would have taken him off chemo completely. Thankfully my son is alive and well (except for the consequences of the stroke, which are significant) 12 years later.

I think oncologists need to be more forthright with their patients that chemo is horrible. Maybe find slightly different words but be clear, it’s a terrible challenge that will present multiple issues and you won’t know if its been worth it until the end. Oncologists also need to be more forthright with themselves — what we’ve got today isn’t even close to perfect, keep working. I know it is difficult to balance the goal every doctor (that I’ve ever met) has to help people with the reality that chemo is horrid, but please, please remember that chemo is horrid, cancer is slightly worse, and you need to work your butts off to widen that gap.

I’m grateful that there are docs who live this out every day, but there are others who don’t know how to work with kids and families, and that’s where I think these kinds of cases come from.

This is so sad. Seems like a bunch of people without medical degrees are advising this kid and his parents. Sure, chemo therapy makes you sick, but it’s better than the alternative…being dead. I’ve survived two different types of cancer, the last, 6 years ago was a non-hodgkin’s lymphoma. I had chemo treatments for 6 months. My oncologist told me that it was important not to loose weight while on chemo. Whether I felt like eating or not, I forced myself to eat small amounts several times a day. I actually gained a little weight in those 6 months. My first cancer was 13 years ago, the second 6 years ago. I get regular checkups and so far, I’m cancer free. I think the judge made the right decision

I am glad Daniel Hauser is having chemo again and hope it will be successful, but I think it is also important to acknowledge the special toll chemo takes on children.

Depending on which drugs are used and the child’s age, the patient may become permanently developmentally delayed, learning disabled, sterile. And any patient who has been cured with chemotherapy has a higher risk of cancer later in life than the average person. There must be life-long follow-up. Personally, the long-term effects of chemo scare me much more than the immediate ones.

The choice of whether or not to treat still seems clear to me, but the fear involved in submitting your child to such life-transforming drugs must be great. The family’s panic seems extreme to me, but essentially normal.

I am glad Daniel Hauser is having chemo again and hope it will be successful, but I think it is also important to acknowledge the special toll chemo takes on children.

Depending on which drugs are used and the child’s age, the patient may become permanently developmentally delayed, learning disabled, sterile. And any patient who has been cured with chemotherapy has a higher risk of cancer later in life than the average person. There must be life-long follow-up. Personally, the long-term effects of chemo scare me much more than the immediate ones.

The choice of whether or not to treat still seems clear to me, but the fear involved in submitting your child to such life-transforming drugs must be great. The family’s panic seems extreme to me, but essentially normal.

I am glad Daniel Hauser is having chemo again and hope it will be successful, but I think it is also important to acknowledge the special toll chemo takes on children.

Depending on which drugs are used and the child’s age, the patient may become permanently developmentally delayed, learning disabled, sterile. And any patient who has been cured with chemotherapy has a higher risk of cancer later in life than the average person. There must be life-long follow-up. Personally, the long-term effects of chemo scare me much more than the immediate ones.

The choice of whether or not to treat still seems clear to me, but the fear involved in submitting your child to such life-transforming drugs must be great. The family’s panic seems extreme to me, but essentially normal.

I am glad Daniel Hauser is having chemo again and hope it will be successful, but I think it is also important to acknowledge the special toll chemo takes on children.

Depending on which drugs are used and the child’s age, the patient may become permanently developmentally delayed, learning disabled, sterile. And any patient who has been cured with chemotherapy has a higher risk of cancer later in life than the average person. There must be life-long follow-up. Personally, the long-term effects of chemo scare me much more than the immediate ones.

The choice of whether or not to treat still seems clear to me, but the fear involved in submitting your child to such life-transforming drugs must be great. The family’s panic seems extreme to me, but essentially normal.

I am glad Daniel Hauser is having chemo again and hope it will be successful, but I think it is also important to acknowledge the special toll chemo takes on children.

Depending on which drugs are used and the child’s age, the patient may become permanently developmentally delayed, learning disabled, sterile. And any patient who has been cured with chemotherapy has a higher risk of cancer later in life than the average person. There must be life-long follow-up. Personally, the long-term effects of chemo scare me much more than the immediate ones.

The choice of whether or not to treat still seems clear to me, but the fear involved in submitting your child to such life-transforming drugs must be great. The family’s panic seems extreme to me, but essentially normal.

I am glad Daniel Hauser is having chemo again and hope it will be successful, but I think it is also important to acknowledge the special toll chemo takes on children.

Depending on which drugs are used and the child’s age, the patient may become permanently developmentally delayed, learning disabled, sterile. And any patient who has been cured with chemotherapy has a higher risk of cancer later in life than the average person. There must be life-long follow-up. Personally, the long-term effects of chemo scare me much more than the immediate ones.

The choice of whether or not to treat still seems clear to me, but the fear involved in submitting your child to such life-transforming drugs must be great. The family’s panic seems extreme to me, but essentially normal.

I am glad Daniel Hauser is having chemo again and hope it will be successful, but I think it is also important to acknowledge the special toll chemo takes on children.

Depending on which drugs are used and the child’s age, the patient may become permanently developmentally delayed, learning disabled, sterile. And any patient who has been cured with chemotherapy has a higher risk of cancer later in life than the average person. There must be life-long follow-up. Personally, the long-term effects of chemo scare me much more than the immediate ones.

The choice of whether or not to treat still seems clear to me, but the fear involved in submitting your child to such life-transforming drugs must be great. The family’s panic seems extreme to me, but essentially normal.

I am glad Daniel Hauser is having chemo again and hope it will be successful, but I think it is also important to acknowledge the special toll chemo takes on children.

Depending on which drugs are used and the child’s age, the patient may become permanently developmentally delayed, learning disabled, sterile. And any patient who has been cured with chemotherapy has a higher risk of cancer later in life than the average person. There must be life-long follow-up. Personally, the long-term effects of chemo scare me much more than the immediate ones.

The choice of whether or not to treat still seems clear to me, but the fear involved in submitting your child to such life-transforming drugs must be great. The family’s panic seems extreme to me, but essentially normal.

Why do these “experts” lie to people and give them false hope? I think people should have a choice to live and die the way they want – as long as it’s not hurting anyone else. Chemo may delay Daniel’s death but it will only be saved by natural means. The body is natural so why would something UN-natural heal cancer? There are so many ways to cure cancer it’s amazing! Cancer was not a big deal in the old days, they had lots of solutions. Chemo is not medicine – it does not cure anything – it does not address the CAUSE of the problem so why would it work? Treat the symptoms and what do you get? – more illness. Too many people believe too much in the competence of the medical establishment – you all need to start asking more questions and being a bit more skeptical, it might save your life.

I just want to know how hes doing AFTER all this. It’s been awhile and I was hoping he could get some natural treatments.

I don’t understand why people don’t think that there is a cure for cancer, and it doesn’t come from man made machines. We all came from the earth, and the earth provides cures for every disease out there that the earth has to offer…
All cancer is is just a fungus. I know there are things out there to kill fungus naturally, and if the hospitals would quit worrying about the almighty dollar and put humanity first then we wouldn’t have this problem. As a matter of fact, the hospitals have come across cures for many diseases by accident, but since theres no money in a cure they refuse to research it.

Think about it… what the first thing the hospital asks you when you walk in the door? “How are you going to pay?” Thats their main focus is how you’re going to pay. Also, if you think about it… Name ONE drug or treatment ANY hospital has EVER made that “cured” anything? You can’t because there is none. The hospitals aren’t worried about your health, their worried about their income.

I’m not saying every individual docter is more worried about their pay then about their patients, but the pharmacies as a whole who supposedly have all the medical and health knowledge cover up cures, covers up proof that their is other treatments then drugs, and other ways to be healed rather then with expensive anti-biotics and dangerous drugs.

William:

Also, if you think about it… Name ONE drug or treatment ANY hospital has EVER made that “cured” anything? You can’t because there is none.

Antibiotics for a variety of bacterial infections from strep throat to Hanson’s Disease (also known as leprosy).

I still can’t believe anyone could be so stupid. Someone needs to slap this bitch across the face. She basically murdered her son by being so ignorant and naive. The reason this idiot refused to get him treatment, and thought that “praying would cure him” is the EXACT same reason my grandmother died. Shame on her for being such a naive, crappy mother. I can’t stand seeing things like this happen, a child dying, when he could have at least gotten treatment. Life isn’t a fairytale, you don’t just “wish your problems away” and people who seem to view life that way really, really irritate the hell out of me. How old is she, 5? I could not believe when I saw all this going on on the news that someone would really be that dense. And the whole “treatment doesn’t always work” argument is absolutely ridiculous. Look how many things HAVE been fixed. A lot of money and effort has been put into medical research for a good reason- obviously you need to TREAT a disease like this to see improvement.
I am not at all surprised that this boy died, everyone knew it was coming. And thanks to his incompetent mother, it didn’t take too long. Shame on her. I can’t believe someone would do that to their own child. It’s common sense that it was going to end badly if they refused treatment, OBVIOUSLY. I just can’t get over the fact that anyone could be so stupid. It disgusts me.

I would like someone to show me “real” evidence that chemo actually works…ther is none that is the real truth…why are we the sickest country in the world if our medicine is so great?

There are many natural therapies out there work but you will never here about them because remeber natural thereapy; herbs, supplements etc. are not allowed to claim they can cure anything only big pharma can do that with their synthetic drugs which just make people sicker..

Chemo kills more people than it “cures”…Anything that makes you lose your hair, lose weight, puke all the time is not good for the body…in fact in most cases chemo actually makes cancer spread…

If my child was diagnosed with cancer she would not get chemo either…My wife and I are both educated people and know the facts of both sides and still live in the US which should mean we have the right to CHOSE how we want to raise and treat our child.

Here is a study from a “peer reviewed” journal that is credible yet no one seems to care about its findings…

http://cancerfighter.wordpress.com/2008/10/10/how-effective-is-chemotherapy

Also I think we still have FREEDOM OF RELIGION in this country last time I checked it is in a pretty important document which is the framwork for our country!