Birthers on parade

While the left certainly has its share of whackos (9/11 truthers, for example) at least they can say that those morons generally aren’t taken seriously by politicians (with few exceptions), and they certainly don’t commandere attention from the democratic party.

Pablo – It’s worth noting that Philip Berg, the lead litigant in last year’s attempt to get the “birth certificate controversy” heard by the U.S. Supreme Court is also a noted “truther”.

Sometimes the political extremes on both sides of the political spectrum wind up meeting each other.

Fortunately here in Canada political office is open to anyone regardless of place of birth, so we don’t have to worry about this sort of nonsense.

This “controversy” is even sillier when you consider that Obama’s late mother was an American citizen. Even if he really *was* born in Kenya, he would still be be an American citizen by birth, because his mother was one.

Back in 1968, when George Romney was running for President, it was brought up that he was actually born in Mexico. As it turned out, both of his parents were U.S. citizens, which settled the issue at the time. John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone, which was an unincorporated territory of the U.S.; being born there did not automatically confer U.S. citizenship to the baby. Since both of his parents were U.S. citizens, he was automatically one too.

I have to wonder, had McCain won the election, would the “birthers” have gone after him with the same vigor? I highly doubt it.

Fortunately here in Canada political office is open to anyone regardless of place of birth, so we don’t have to worry about this sort of nonsense.

The thing is, I don’t think this is really about Obama’s birthplace or whether he can produce a birth certificate. That is the specific issue the birthers have latched onto, but it really seems to be about Obama’s legitimacy as president. I’ve noticed that a lot of the people who fall for the birther nonsense will also call Obama “Hussein” at every opportunity or rant about Obama’s “socialism,” Bill Ayers, or some other thing. That leads me to believe that the birthers are just looking for ways to disqualify Obama as president, and if it weren’t the birth certificate, they would invent some other cause.

Well, I live in Delaware and I have got to say, that must be in one of the lower two counties. The northern county, New Castle county (heh, Mike Castle has the same name ^_^, *cough cough*) is a fairly liberal place, and from what I can tell, it seems like only a portion of Obama’s opposers seem to believe that he is not a citizen.

I keep seeing blog posts about “birthers” and confusing them with posts about “forced birthers”. Suppose it’s just what I get for the entire internet being American, and for hanging out on feminist blogs a lot.

“That there are kooky conspiracy theorists who just can’t accept that they lost and we now have a black man as the President of the United States does not surprise me.”

Sure, Orac, put it down to racism. That’s about as disingenuous as it gets. (And a bit of anti-white racial projection, maybe?)

That we have a president with no qualifications, who hung out with domestic terrorists and race-mongers, is a serial apologist, and whose policies reek of Satan-worshipping, Saul Alinsky-style socialism – while seeming to worsen everything he touches – would be more like it. Face it: We – including this black man – don’t like him or what he stands for. I say, if you want to shut up the Birthers, then just show us his friggin’ birth certificate – don’t tell us it exists, or that you’ve seen it, or how logical it should be to everyone: Just produce the damn thing. It may not work but it’s a better answer than your wrong-headed leftist swill.

You forget, Buddy (as much as I admire what you do) I’ve got your number, so don’t think you can pull this liberal race crap on me without knowing where it comes from:

You’re a liberal – the biggest race hustlers in the country – from the Dixiecrats to the Democrats, defending white or black, it’s all the same to you. But I’ve got news for you – you’ve lost me, man:

And you will be defeated.

These ‘birther’ idiots would be perfectly happy to amend the Constitution in order to make Schwarzenegger eligible to run for president, but, now that they have lost, it is time to find any possible criticism of the winner because he is from another party.
Nobody cares at all about the country; all that matters is who wins.

…the U.S. constitution never defines what “natural-born citizen” means…

Which is what kills the argument dead in its tracks.

…and the 14th amendment only says “citizen”, not “natural-born citizen”…

Not quite. The 14th. amendment draws a distinction between being “born” and being “naturalized” for citizenship. Therefore it’s perfectly reasonable to conclude that a “natural-born citizen” is simply one whose citizenship is conferred by birth.

…and that original intent was that a person’s father (or both parents) had to be a citizen for that person to be the president.

I haven’t seen this claim before. Care to provide some sauce?

@Tyler DiPietro:

…the U.S. constitution never defines what “natural-born citizen” means…

Which is what kills the argument dead in its tracks.

Well, you can’t simply treat it as undefined, so you have to have some way of figuring out what definition to use, and constitutional intentionalism is one way of doing that.

… and that original intent was that a person’s father (or both parents) had to be a citizen for that person to be the president.

I haven’t seen this claim before. Care to provide some sauce?

From here:

He received a Kenyan/UK citizenship via his foreign father and is not a “natural born Citizen” by originnal intent.

Sorry, not sure if this has been addressed already….

If Obama’s mom is an American citizen, then why isn’t he considered an American citizen regardless?

….so, his “non-citizenship” just happen to slip by all the universities he attended, the U.S. Department of State’s Bureau of Consular Affairs where he got his passport (that requires a birth certificate), his applications for all offices (senator, president), as well as Hillary Clinton, John McCain, and the media during the election….only to be exposed now by people who are obviously distraught. Yeah, not buying it either.

The burden of evidence is on them. They have nothing but accusations. NOTHING!

Turn on the Colbert Report NOW — he’s got one of the primo birthers on. Barrel, meet fish …

It looks like you’re only playing Devil’s Advocate here, …

Partially, but it’s also that I Am Not A Lawyer, so I can’t really tell if the argument is invalid or not. The argument that Obama wasn’t really born in Hawaii is absurd, so it’s less interesting to talk about (though much more interesting for pointing-and-laughing).

Satan-worshiping socialism?

I don’t know what makes me want to vomit more:
These crazy ass “birthers” OR the fact that I now agree with Ann Coulter on something! I feel the bile in my throat and it smells like Ann!
JTD

The birfers are great, people like The Crack Emcee do the daily show’s writers writing for them.

Marcus :

Also, I’m surprised at your comments about representatives not wanting to speak out against it. Surely this stuff hasn’t spread beyond a vocal but small minority of the loony far right (and maybe the odd nutty HRC supporter)?

The small minority of vocal nutcases is all the republican party has left.

Wow, just wow!

I am an Army brat born in what was then the Panama Canal Zone. There is a law that makes us US citizens that was ratified after McCain was born (it was sometime in the 1930s). Both of my parents were born in the USA (born in Wisconsin and Washington… the latter being the state versus the city), yet there was a time when the Republic of Panama was going to declare us citizens and my dad immigration papers ready for me (my dad was also stationed there during some of my high school years, apparently he took the duty instead of his original orders to… wait for it… Hawaii!… because the officer he was to replace did not want to leave just then).

I did not turn into a Panamanian because I was born there, and because I was there for 8th, 9th and 10th grades, and because Torrijos thought it would be a good idea to declare anyone born in Gorgas Hospital were citizens!

Though I will say that a fellow band parent who has taken advantage of Hispanic opportunities for his daughter has admitted I am more Hispanic than he is. His parents came over on the first wave of Cubans escaping Castro before he was born in the late 1950s. His only claim is that his parents were born in Cuba. At least I was born in Hispanamerica (is that right… hispan y america?), lived there for a third of my youth… puedo hablar la lingua! (of course, I have not spoken or written for over thirty years…. which is more than NEVER!).

I do have a birth certificate. I can get copies by writing Washington, DC, where copies were sent after the turnover.

So does our president. He can obtain copies of his birth certificate by writing the State of Hawaii.

She also claimed that Magna Carta somehow empowers a “citizen grand jury” to indict Obama under our constitutional system.
It sounds like she’s also a FOTL kook as well. They’re big on how Magna Carta and “Common Law” trumps every law bought in after the 13th century anywhere in the Western world (hint: they don’t).

Oh, now I have “birther sympathies”? Where? Prove it. I offered up a solution to the problem of birthers – show them the elusive birth certificate – I didn’t say I agree with them. (I didn’t even imply it, acknowledging in my birther post that it’s “not my issue” and that I believed the National Review when they said they’ve seen it.) So where’s the great logic and fairness of Orac, now? Poof! It doesn’t exist, as I’ve always said! You’re a coward.

It’s just a bunch of liberal swill, hidden behind a bunch of bogus racism charges. And, like I also said, I’ve got your number – you’re unwillingness to acknowledge your failings regarding me and my case are as disingenuous as your birther/racism charges reveal. Attack, attack, attack, is that all you’ve got for me? Turning your “followers” on me as a kooky birther – not someone you betrayed? I guess your supposed “sympathy” for me and my plight is all used up now, so you can go back to using me for ridicule, right? Punk.

And to your idiot “followers” who, for all their intelligence, don’t know shit from Shinola in the real world, Rules For Radicals, Saul Alinsky’s primer for, both, Hillary and Obama was dedicated to Satan – something else I don’t think of as true, but must acknowledge as a part of our world because others do.

As I’ve said from the first day I found this site:

For a bunch of supposedly “smart” people, you folks are dummmb.

Better read up on your Black Lightening, kids, because you and I are in for a shocker – and you’re going to lose. I’m beating my homeopath – not dispairing about him as Orac does his situation with the loons – and I’ll beat Orac, too.

As a matter of fact, it’ll be a pleasure.

Oh, now I have “birther sympathies”? Where? Prove it. I offered up a solution to the problem of birthers – show them the elusive birth certificate – I didn’t say I agree with them. (I didn’t even imply it, acknowledging in my birther post that it’s “not my issue” and that I believed the National Review when they said they’ve seen it.

I don’t read your blog; so how am I supposed to know what you think of the birther isue, other than what you posted here and that you seem to think that socialists worship Satan?

I guess your supposed “sympathy” for me and my plight is all used up now, so you can go back to using me for ridicule, right? Punk.

Yes and no. It’s possible to have sympathy for your plight and still think your behavior in my comment section is execrable and obnoxious. You wave your history like a talisman in front of you to ward of criticism of your behavior, which only works for so long.

1. The problem is that the term “natural born citizen” was not defined when the Constitution was adopted and is not defined in the 14th amendment. There have been statutes passed since then for the purpose of attempting to clarify the situation. However, as I pointed out in a comment on Ed Braytons’ blog, under one statute, a Kenyan born President Obama would not be a natural born citizen, which statute was in effect at the time of his birth and under another statute that was passed after his birth and modified some of the conditions in the first one, he would be a natural born citize, even if born in Kenya. Unless and until the Supreme Court were to find the current statute unconstitutional, the issue of original intent is nothing but a pile of crap.

2. The issue of the birth certificate, or certificate of live birth is another red herring. If someone requests a birth certificate from the State of Hawaii, the document that President Obama has posted on his web site is what they will receive. Therefore, the birthers’ complaint is not with the president but with the State of Hawaii.

3. Mr. Crack Emcees’ complaints about President Obama have nothing to do with his eligibility to be president. Even if they were true, this is a matter for the voters, not the courts. There is nothing in the Constitution that prohibits the election of a Socialist to the Presidency. There is nothing in the Constitution that prevents someone who palled around with terrorists from being elected president. There is nothing in the Constitution that prevents someone who attended a church whose pastor was a whackjob (by the way, it should be pointed out that the pastor of the church that former Governor Palin attended was at least as round the bend as Reverend Wright) from being elected president.

Is this not akin to an archaeological find that ‘proves’ the Bible? That is to say if there was evidence of that sort of calibre then the you-know-what would hit the fan. “The President of the United States is a fraud!” “The Bible is true in a way that contradicts conventional history!” Somehow since ‘birthers’ can only seem to get enough ‘evidence’ that maintains their status quo and doesn’t impact American society in any way then it’s good indication they have nothing.

P.S. The left equivalent may be when they talk about Al Gore being the rightful President.

… if you want to shut up the Birthers, then just show us his friggin’ birth certificate ….

Since exactly that has been done several times, why should anyone waste their time and energy by doing it again?

Surely this stuff hasn’t spread beyond a vocal but small minority of the loony far right

Sort of. One problem is that this loony minority happens to have a lot of TV and radio shows, so credulous ignorant people (and you have them in Canada too, so don’t knock us for that!) who are upset about the election result tend to just parrot what they heard on O’Reilly or Limbaugh or Hannity or Beck. That’s still a minority, but the problem is it’s a sizable enough minority of conservative voters that a conservative candidate who pisses them off could be in some trouble come next election. So even though everybody with a brain knows it’s complete bullshit, certain people have a strong incentive to just give the whole nonsense a nod and a wink.

The really funny part about all these people (like the insane Crack Emcee, yikes) saying that Obama is a “socialist” is that Obama is probably the most moderate president the US has had since Jimmy Carter. While I recognize he’s got another 3+ years (or maybe 7) to prove himself, if the presidency keeps going like this then Obama will be remembered in the history books as the first black president, and not much else. Maybe a footnote as the one who helped usher in the first lukewarm attempt at universal healthcare, but the version that’s percolating through congress right now isn’t really very revolutionary. Cracks me up that people are calling “Socialism!” and insisting that the sky is falling…

“I don’t read your blog; so how am I supposed to know what you think of the birther isue, other than what you posted here and that you seem to think that socialists worship Satan?”

Oh, Orac, Orac, Orac, you can be such an ass sometimes – along with your idiot pal, Skemono: did I say he was born in Kenya, asshole? – basing your ideas about me on your assumptions (Ass-U-Me) which never fit. First, there’s my statement:

“If you want to shut up the Birthers, then just show us his friggin’ birth certificate – don’t tell us it exists, or that you’ve seen it, or how logical it should be to everyone: Just produce the damn thing. It may not work but it’s a better answer than your wrong-headed leftist swill.”

“We have a president with no qualifications, who hung out with domestic terrorists and race-mongers, is a serial apologist, and whose policies reek of Satan-worshipping, Saul Alinsky-style socialism.”

Hmm. Nothing in there about all socialists worshipping Satan. A lot about Obama and his policies, which are right out of Saul Alinsky’s Rules For Radicals, which was dedicated to – who? – “Lucifer“. (Alinksky coined the term “community organizer” as well.) I would’ve thought the President of the United States – and his Secretary of State (who wrote her college thesis on the book) – would’ve rejected it’s contents based solely on that, considering they both were pursuing higher office. And, if you ask me, it’s another damn good reason why anyone – including birthers – would question his credibility for the office and willingness to lie to us.

Now, Jackass, you prove to me where you got your birther/racism charge from, or did your racist ass just make it up out of thin air, as I said?

Finally, my behavior on your comments section is exactly what you deserve: you are charging people with racism who have shown none. You have dissed me as a crank when I’ve been right about a lot of shit (like Homeopathy being a cult, and the infiltration of hospitals by these cultists) that you dismissed as my crankery before – without an apology, once you changed your tune, I might add. You have not behaved as I – a person who first came to you pleading for help – would expect but as what you are: a cynical, knee-jerk liberal with a “turf” you think you’ve got to protect AKA a very small, and not very bright, man.

As Panda Bear, M.D. (who you admitted is better at this debunking shit than you are) said, I can see through your liberal science elitism – which you’ve practiced on me from the start – and that’s, partially, why you dislike me. I’ve never thought you very special, as I do the very-Christian but still down-to-earth Panda. (Which explains why you don’t even read my shit, while Panda’s made TMR his sister blog.) From the basis of “alternative” medicine (cultism) to Global Warming, you’ve been more of a representative of conventional thinking than Panda or I and you hate that anyone from the Right will claim the mantle that you liberal wing-nuts – like that idiot, P.Z. Meyers – or the “denial” dolt, Hoofnagle – have occupied. You’re a clique of conventional wisdom compared to us – and you can’t stand it.

I told you, almost four years ago, that I wasn’t going to stop – or back down – and I’m still going strong, Orac, while you’ve changed your tune to more closely match my song. If I were you, I’d start reading my blog, man:

I’m bringing in the drums real soon.

I notice the woman talking to Castle says she has a birth certificate from the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA … that’s the problem!

Obama’s certificate is only from the State of Hawaii. He wasn’t born where they hand out the special certificates.

And her certificate says she is a citizen! His doesn’t! His just says he was born alive in Honolulu on a certain date.

Good grief!

Crack Emcee may not have “birther sympathies”, but the post he refers to is right out of the birther playbook – i.e., raising doubts about whether Obama really has a Hawaii birth certificate even though it’s been widely posted on public websites (like Barack Obama’s personal website) for the better part of a year.

You can make legitimate, cogent arguments against President Obama’s policy positions and decisions he’s made while in office. But at this point, arguing about his heritage is utterly ridiculous and an EPIC FAIL.

Matthew Cline said “He received a Kenyan/UK citizenship via his foreign father and is not a “natural born Citizen”

I assume his father filed the usual “Consular Report of Birth Abroad” forms to notify his government of the birth – but that alone wouldn’t make Obama a Kenyan citizen.

Children born abroad, and those born to parents of differing citizenship status are in a legal limbo, sometimes for their entire life. It depends on the rules of the birth country and the rules of the country where the child was born how things are resolved.

He was born in Hawaii – Hawaii was a STATE – and that’s all it would take to be a “natural-born citizen” even if both his parents had been non-citizens. There are some requirements about spending enough time in the USA post-birth, but he was living in the USA long enough to satisfy those.

Obama did have, as the foreign-born child of a Kenyan citizen, a chance to claim Kenyan citizenship … when he was of legal age and could renounce his USA citizenship and formally claim Kenyan citizenship. Kenya doesn’t allow dual citizenship and does not allow late claims … a foreign-born child has to claim it soon after reaching legal age.

He did not do that, or there would be a formal renunciation of US citizenship filed with the State Department.

Nothing his parents might or might not have done on his behalf – up to and including getting him a non-USA passport, formally or informally adopting him, taking him overseas, enrolling him in school, etc. – can terminate his citizenship that stems from being born in Hawaii.

The only person who could terminate Barack Obama’s US citizenship is Barack Obama, after his 18th birthday, with a sworn declaration of renouncing US citizenship. Those are filed with the state department, they are witnessed, they are BIG MOJO! And he wouldn’t have been able to get a US passport, or a US security clearance with one of those on file.

My American niece, with a French husband, had children while they were living in England: The children at the moment are tri-citizens. England by birth, French and American by virtue of the citizenship of their parents … both consulates issued the appropriate “Certificate of Birth Abroad” and the tykes have both American and French passports. France allows a non-French wife to get a French passport, so my niece (legally, without risking her US citizenship) has a French passport too.

@crackemcee:

http://www.fightthesmears.com.php5-9.websitetestlink.com/articles/5/birthcertificate

“the rest of us want merely the best man for the job – or, at least, someone we’re sure is an American and on our side.”

“For the last time: I never – never – said I didn’t think Barack Obama was an American.”

You know, it is hard to believe the same person said the two above quotes.

So you want someone that you’re sure is an American but you never – never – said you didn’t think he was an American?

*scratches head*

You know, it is hard to believe the same person said the two above quotes.

Indeed. Thanks for picking that up. I can smell a disingenuous “I’m just asking questions” or “I want to see the evidence” gambit when I see one. When Crack Em said to “shut the birthers up” just show ’em the birth certificate, he said it exactly the way I’ve heard it said by birthers. The analogy above to the antivaccine movement couldn’t be more apt.

“Thanks for picking that up. I can smell a disingenuous ‘I’m just asking questions’ or ‘I want to see the evidence’ gambit when I see one. When Crack Em said to ‘shut the birthers up’ just show ’em the birth certificate, he said it exactly the way I’ve heard it said by birthers. The analogy above to the antivaccine movement couldn’t be more apt.”

Great, Orac, now you’re charging me with a belief that I’ve openly – and vigorously – denied, based on how I talk. ( Just as you’ve charged the Birthers with a racism no one has seen.)

Sorry I’m not as carefully erudite as you guys, but being a prim little bitch ain’t my calling, and, I’m sure, most Birthers, etc., are “just folks” as well, so y’all can have a good ol’ time picking their english apart, too – it’s a great way to try and avoid other people’s points – if you’re a stupid elitist yourself.

You really should read my blog, dude, if only to count how often I use the “delusional thinking” tag. It definitely applies here, considering how sure of yourself you are, based on such flimsy bullshit.

Now pick that last sentence apart: I’m sure you can,…

Tsu Dho Nimh, I have a birth certificate from the US of A because I was born on a military installation overseas. But most people just have them from the state where they were born.

The Crack Emcee – here’s your photographic evidence:
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

Crack Emcee:

The problem you’re failing to notice–or rather, one of the problems–is that disgruntled American citizens do not have a righteous beef if they have done no due diligence to seek answers to their questions, and certainly do not have grounds to assert a specific conclusion MERELY BECAUSE NO ONE HAS SPOONFED THEM. That is infantile.

It’s readily available at the logical sites and in high Google hits. It’s been here:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/

and other famous sites, such as Snopes, for a year. To act as you have in that context is reprehensible.

“I don’t read your blog; so how am I supposed to know what you think of the birther isue, other than what you posted here and that you seem to think that socialists worship Satan?”

Hmm, I don’t see any qualifiers around the line “you seem to think that socialists worship Satan”, so, since you’re so hot on language and how it’s used – and obviously so much more well-spoken than I – your claim that you didn’t say I “thought ‘all’ socialists worship Satan” sounds like bullshit to me. Do you know how to admit to someone when you’re wrong – which is one sign of a decent man – or is it all about image to you?

Face it, Orac: Every time you put your foot in your mouth, I’m going to take it out and hold it to the fire. And I’m going to keep doing that until you apologize and get a fucking clue. Why? Because you’re not a bad guy, but – as I discovered from the first – just a bad advocate for “our side” (let’s call it the Atheist American Anti-Alternative Medicine and Cultish NewAge Crew). You’re too leftist, too elitist, and too stuck in conventional thinking to be an effective leader – not that I don’t think you’d make a good one – just that, in your current incarnation, you suck BIG TIME.

I mean, look at you: “Alinsky allegedly dedicated his book to Lucifer.” No he didn’t – he dedicated his book to Satan, period. And I didn’t “imply that Barack Obama worships Satan” but said – not implied but said – his “policies reek of Satan-worshipping, Saul Alinsky-style socialism” – not the same thing by a country mile. Yet you somehow think you come off as being fair to my argument when you’re clearly twisting it – based on your every-ready bag of what you think are wonderful debating tricks (Straw Man!)

Dude, your education ain’t gonna help you with me – I’m actually *smart* – and, like you, not so humble. I’ve been battling assholes who went to better schools my whole life. I know all your tricks, and see you coming from a mile away, so don’t try to play me:

It won’t work, man.

Now, admit your fucking racism and apologize, so I can get back to tending my own lawn. You may not read my blog, but I read yours, and these racist episodes ain’t what I come here for.

Plus, you’ll be a better man for it.

“What’s even more hilarious, the far right lunatic fringe has turned on Coulter”

Philip Berg, the lead plaintiff, in the case on which review was sought by the Supreme Court about the “birth certificate controversy” is (or was) a Democratic Party activist. Birthers are hardly limited to “the far right lunatic fringe”.

@ Dave:

“If I understand it correctly, had Obama actually been born in Kenya, despite his mother being a US citizen, he wouldn’t be a natural-born US citizen, due to the way the law read at the time. So the birfers are really hanging onto that one, even though it’s idiotic. They don’t have a good explanation of how the birth announcement got into two local papers.”

Not quite. Section 1 of Article Two of the U.S. Constitution states, in pertinent part:

“No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.”

From the US State Dept. website:

“Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock: A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) INA provided the citizen parent was physically present in the U.S. for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child’s birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen is required. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen are required for physical presence in the U.S. to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.”

http://travel.state.gov/law/info/info_609.html

Where ever he was born, Pres. Obama’s mother met the physical presence test as the law them provided. Accordingly, he is a “natural born citizen” — which is the language used, not “born in the U.S.” For those really interested, read the 14th Amendment debates reported in the Congressional Globe. Merely being born in the U.S. was not considered sufficient by itself to confer citizenship — at least according to the drafters of the 14th Amendment. Being subject to the “jurisdiction” (e.g., legal power and authority) of the U.S. government was the key. This is why former slaves and their children were citizens, while the children of foreign Ambassabors born within the U.S. were not.

FYI: Jennie Churchill (Winston’s Mom) did not meet test so that he son was a U.S. citizen. So, although Winnie’s Mom was a U.S. citizen, he was not a “natural born citizen” and so could only be awarded an “Honorary” U.S. citizenship.

RRT,

You’re assuming everyone has the internet, or even the knowledge of knowing where to go, which are two big assumptions (Elitism). My roommate doesn’t even know how to download an .mp3, so to assume everyone is as aware as you – of a whole gang of shit – is what’s “reprehensible”. You guys make me wonder if everyone who isn’t like you is looked down upon and regarded as the enemy – do you have any compassion for your fellow Americans? Or are they just a bunch of hicks in “fly-over country” to you? (I know Orac certainly picks and chooses.)

How can you explain jumping all over little ol’ me, while ignoring all the obvious signs that, even to other people who barely understand politics, science, or cultism, Barack Obama never was even close to what he advertised himself as? Or that the media actively let him get away with it – with you guys cynically applauding the whole charade because you wanted a “win” over the Republicans so bad. So how’s that “win” feel now?

Look, I’ve tried being nice to y’all, back at the beginning when I thought I had no choice, but I’m emotionally whole now – and with the wisdom that nice don’t work against group-think – which is what you guys are caught in. And with me being around, you’re going to have to change – to re-think everything – because I’m not going along with your bullshit. What you’ve done, politically, is wrong and what you’ve done, culturally, is wrong – and I’ll change you before you change me. Like George Carlin once observed, you ever notice that when white guys start hanging out with black guys, it’s the white guys who start acting black? Well, prepare yourselves for a whole re-working of your outlook on American life because, folks, I ain’t budging – because I know I’m right – and, as I told Orac at the very beginning, I’ll gladly wait for everybody to come to my way of seeing things.

That’s The Macho Response

Finally, a note to John Cain: Dude, if you think running a blog is so damn easy – and making money at it – then let’s see your punk ass do it. Mine’s working, asshole.

That “If you want to shut up the Birthers” should’ve told you I ain’t one of them, but that I, too, would like to see a birth certificate to end the controversy – it’s what any intelligent person would do if someone asked to see it: They wouldn’t send out a bunch of middle men, to say they’ve seen it, they’d just produce it. That they haven’t done so is what’s fueling the controversy.

Forgiving that Obama *has* produced the document, and it is available to view on the web, and several people in this very thread have already provided links to it….

The biggest irony of conspiracy claims is that the person being accused is in a no-win situation. Just as with NASA and the moon landing, if they address the conspiracy theorists, the conspiracy theorists just say “well, they’re lying!” whereas if they refuse to give the wackos the time of day, the wackos say “they won’t deny it! see!” I think the best thing, therefore, is for the one being accused to ignore his accusers. He can’t win in an argument with them (any “debate” will be a trap, as many no-moonies and creationists have demonstrated over the years), and will expend a lot of effort that could be better spent elsewhere.

Clinging to it does the Republicans no favors. It makes them look like idiots. The McCain campaign wisely ignored the conspiracy theory, even though in theory it favored them by attacking their enemy. Of course, McCain had two reasons to ignore the theory — the fact that it was utterly ludicrous, and the fact that the same tortured logic could be applied to McCain’s citizenship. (The logic would be equally invalid; McCain, born in Panama, is a natural born citizen, even though he was born a year before the law that corrected the Constitutional uncertainties surrounding citizenship of residents. However, it does puzzle me that birthers rarely seem troubled by McCain’s case.)

@crack emcee

Can you please explain how these two statements you’ve made are not mutually exclusive? I’ve even included citations since you’re a fan of that sort of thing.

“when I’ve said, repeatedly, that I do [think he’s an american citizen] and I think his birth certificate is real” (comment 76)

“the rest of us want merely the best man for the job – or, at least, someone we’re sure is an American and on our side.” (comment 55)

If you’ve stated, repeatedly, that you think he’s an american citizen, then why do you need further assurances that he’s an american?

@Crack Emcee:

Given that images of the birth certificate are on the web, what would “dealing with it again and again and again” constitute? Mailing photocopies of the original birth-certificate to anyone who asks for it? Putting the original birth-certificate up on public display so people can look at it in person?

All you need to know about the EmCee, from his “blog”:

I’ll be poking in-and-out today, so give me a few thought-provoking comments – preferably not anonymously – and even consider making a donation
…
Being a professional asshole is a really lonely job.

This is BS!

Were you asleep in your 9th grade Constitution Class? Everyone except you (and those who have attended government run schools) (i.e. public schools of today) know that a natural born citizen is one whose parents are both citizens (both Mom and Dad).

Mr. Soetoro (aka Obama) had a pappy that was a British Foreign National…he was NEVER a citizen of the US. Whereas Mr. Soetoro may be a native citizen (if his granny was not a pathological liar) and he was not born in kenya and if he indeed was born in Hawaii (I am not convinced he was) he then may be a “native” citizen…MAYBE….

Then we have the matter of his citizenship in Indonesia. When did he rebuke his Indonesia citizenship and when did he reapply for citizenship back to America? He is supposed to have traveled as an Indonesian Citizen and attended Occidental College and Columbia College as a foreign student. Show me his 1980-1990 passports…show me an american passport. Why is he hiding his passports?

Pray tell… How can you still claim Mr. Soetoro is a natural born citizen when he carries the baggage of being a citizen of four different nations? britian, kenyan, american, and indonesia. Which country is he a Natural Born Citizen of? His daddy was British so no natural born citizenship to america came from him. His adopted daddy Mr. Soetoro was an Indonesian natural born citizen…so BarryO was last a natural born citizen of that country…not the USA. (We have school records showing him as a citizen of indonesia.)

prove to me that BarryO had a daddy that was a citizen of our country and I will cease being a birther. Else I would suggest you all take some night class on the Constitution and American Government. You do not know our countries history, laws and Constitution!

Edward C. Noonan

P.S. And for that matter, BarryO’s mommie and daddy were never legally married. His daddy was already married in Kenya, so unless bigamy and polygamy was legal in Hawaii in 1961, then their marriage (if there was one) was never valid. So if BarryO was born out of wedlock, then that adds to the problem of his natural born status as well. This whole matter is a MESS!

P.S.S…And yes! It matters whether or not BarryO is a citizen or not. If he is still an Indonesian Citizen and he never reapplied for American Citizenship it means we have a NON-CITIZEN in the White House. That is scary! I firmly believe barryO is NOT A U.S. Citizen and he is an illegal alien. He needs to be deported and forced to re-apply for citizenship to our country.

Re Crack Emcee

I have to laugh about Mr. Emcee invoking Saul Alinsky in discussing President Obama. The fact is that it is the right wing Rethuglicans who are the most assiduous followers of Saul Alinsky. Mr. Alinskys’ most famous comment was the statement that the way to get something accomplished was to rub raw the sores of discontent. That is exactly the Karl Rove/Lee Atwater philosophy which they have followed to a tee.

Mr. Goobagabba (aka Edward C. Noonan) makes an interesting point… calling people by the wrong last name and interleaving it with a bunch of absurd and incorrect assertions really is a useful rhetorical device!

It has come to my attention that Mr. Goobagabba (aka Noonan) has been convicted several times for embezzlement, fraud, and jay-walking while wearing a bikini top made out of live salamanders, so that should be taken into account in the future.

P.S. We have a salamander molester commenting on our blog! This is scary!!!!111!!!!

P.P.S. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

@Edward C. Noonan:

Were you asleep in your 9th grade Constitution Class? Everyone except you (and those who have attended government run schools) (i.e. public schools of today) know that a natural born citizen is one whose parents are both citizens (both Mom and Dad).

Given that “natural born citizen” is never defined by the constitution, which statute defines the term as you say it is defined? Or are you going by constitutional intentionalism?

How can you still claim Mr. Soetoro is a natural born citizen when he carries the baggage of being a citizen of four different nations?

What part of the constitution, or which statute, says that dual (or triple or quadruple) citizenship precludes being a natural born citizen of the U.S.?

When did he rebuke his Indonesia citizenship and when did he reapply for citizenship back to America?

What part of the constitution, or which statute, says that a minor gaining citizenship of another country via the actions of their parents causes the loss of American citizenship? From my understanding of the Afroyim v. Rusk supreme court decision it wouldn’t cause a loss of his American citizenship since it wasn’t a voluntary action of his, but rather the action of his parents.

I was able to keep my hands off the keyboard through CrackheadMC’s vitriol, but Noonan is a bigot who happens to think *I’m* not a US citizen, …

I think that Noonan was saying that:

1) While you may be a citizen who was born in the U.S., you’re not a “natural-born” citizen, so you’re not qualified to be President of the U.S.

2) That Obama lost his U.S. citizenship when he gained his Indonesian citizenship, rather than that being born in the U.S. isn’t enough to gain citizenship.

Also, a child does not take a stepfather’s last name unless the stepfather officially adopts the child. This is usually requires that the natural father be either dead or signs away his parental right (note: I am part of an extended stepfamily, my stepsister was adopted by my father so her name was changed… and my hubby’s stepfather did not adopt him so he kept his late father’s name).

Does Mr. Goobagabba (aka Edward C. Noonan) have any records of Obama being adopted by his stepfather? Is that in the same location as the green cards he would have needed to be considered a foreign student in college? You know, those places he attended after graduating from a private prep school in Hawaii (which is part of the USA… the fool upthread claiming it that Hawaii is not part of the USA because it was a nation of its own at one time, which would also mean that neither Texas nor California are part of the USA… even the California’s flag says “Republic of California!”).

Orac,

After answering Calli’s (wonderful) post, I’m going to try to “step away from the whackaloonery for just one minute” and keep this civil with you as well:

If you re-read the post, you’ll see that I, too, was using “Lucifer” and “Satan” interchangeably. My point was that Alinsky didn’t “allegedly” dedicate Rules For Radicals to Lucifer/Satan – he actually did it – so your sarcasm was misplaced.

Anyway, in my opinion, you (and many of your fans) are working much too hard to defend yourselves, when there’s no defense for the charge of racism I’m leveling at you now, or the lack of understanding you guys regularly choose to show towards your fellow Americans who are more-than-a-little concerned about the direction of the country and who’s taking us there. You’ve proven before, during, and after the election that (because you think you’re their moral and intellectual superiors) you don’t truly see them, except as subjects of ridicule, and so, as far as I’m concerned (and as Bill Whittle suggests) if they start to lay into you guys with as little concern, it will be just desserts – and long overdue:

These are the first (and very-possibly the last) elections you’ve won in a long, long time.

JohnV,

Again with the semantics thing? Come on, man, I expect you guys to be bigger than this.

James Sweet,

I’m saying it’s up to Barack Obama (not you, or his many spokesmen, etc.) to achieve the trust of the American people – which he isn’t doing. Speaking bluntly, I know Barack Obama is an American citizen, but, as I said, I think he handled this as badly as he’s handling everything else. I also think Orac’s charge of racism is a perfect example of how his supporters are mishandling things, too. There’s just no way you can convincingly claim you’re being totally color-blind and, then, keep screaming, “He’s the first BLACK president!” after Al Sharpton’s, Louis Farrakhan’s, Jeremiah Wright’s, Father Pfleiger’s, Bill Ayers’ – and, now, Henry Louis Gates’ – totally racist nonsense and support.

It just don’t pass the smell test.

Matthew Cline,

If I were he, I would’ve gone on television, with my birth certificate, and had it authenticated by the Attorney General. Not just had a bunch of nobodies come out and say “I’ve seen it.” If that didn’t do it, fine, but at least you tried to give the people the dignity their questions deserve. That’s how you act as president; not as if the American people are a bunch of loons.

N.C.,

Three things:

1) You’re right – I want readers – there’s no crime in it and I’m doing better than ever because of it. This post made it onto Instapundit, recently, so someone thinks I have an original perspective, even if you don’t.

2) Just because I want readers doesn’t mean I’m being disingenuous. Orac and I have been going ’round and ’round for a long time now. I plug his writing on my blog, a lot, but I also criticize him when I think he deserves it. I put a lot of work into my blog, posting often, and think it’s worth your time (and money) to investigate further. Like I said, others do as well, though your opinion may vary.

3) I’m a former-foster child from South Central, Los Angeles (home of the Crips and Bloods) have several scars on my body from knife wounds, been shot at and had more than my share of guns pointed at my head, and also earned a few medals, specifically for bravery, when I served in the military. I’ve put myself in dangerous situations, on behalf of others, more times than I can count or care to remember. While it may be true that, by looking at me, there’s nothing special to see, my heart is bigger than almost everyone else’s I’ve ever met and my writing reflects that. Consequently, it doesn’t surprise me that Panda Bear, M.D. (a decorated Iraq War vet) has made TMR his sister blog: it’s about integrity.

Stu,

The difference between me and Orac is I have openly discarded the “respectful” part of my insolence. I’m about freedom of speech, and I’m not going to pretend that means trying to be civil with words. “Sticks and Stones”.

SLC,

And your opinion of Karl Rove and Lee Atwater is what? Are you catching my drift yet?

JohnV (again),

I read Mr. Noonan’s rant and found no racism, or bigotry, in it. I think he’s wrong about Obama, but that’s his opinion, and I think his concern that only Americans control America is valid – he’s a patriot.

Orac, on the other hand, was openly charging the likes of Mr. Noonan with racism (as you are now) based on nothing but his own idea of what such people are possibly thinking – an assumption. I thought scientists would know better.

Stu,

Hatred doesn’t bother me – including my own. This world has taught me to hate many things. Only those who think of themselves as more moral (but are actually more easily controlled) because they have a “Hate is not a family value” bumper sticker on their car can be swayed by such P.C. idiocy. What’s wrong with me? I’m free in a way you probably will never be. I think it’s a pity – for you personally and for the country – that you have no idea what I’m getting at. It’s a major failing.

Oooh… here is a thought, next time there is a group of birthers quiz them using the questions on the US citizenship test (much like Jay Leno did years ago).

That would be a funny segment for the Daily Show to do. Get Jason Jones or Sam Bee to ask the questions to the birthers, who likely won’t get the joke.

Anyone who would link Barack Obama to Satan in any way, literal or figurative, is, quite simply, both insane and stupid, and no more credible than any of the raving homeless loonies you can find on the streets of any city on Earth. Our “Emcee” needs to get his head out of his “Crack.”

Speaking of Satan, I wonder how much overlap there is between the Birfer Movement (BM) and the “Obama is the Antichrist” crowd. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find Crack in both camps.

@The Crack Emcee #98:

If I were he, I would’ve gone on television, with my birth certificate, and had it authenticated by the Attorney General. Not just had a bunch of nobodies come out and say “I’ve seen it.”

He’s posted it on the Internet; you’ve been referred to it. The keeper of Hawaii’s public records ahs cofnirmed its authenticity. Why get it “authenticated by the Attorney-General”, when the correct public functionary has done just that.

He has produced an authenticated birth certificate – yet the birthers won’t shut up about it. Nor will you.

@The Crack Emcee #98:

If I were he, I would’ve gone on television, with my birth certificate, and had it authenticated by the Attorney General. Not just had a bunch of nobodies come out and say “I’ve seen it.”

He’s posted it on the Internet; you’ve been referred to it. The keeper of Hawaii’s public records ahs cofnirmed its authenticity. Why get it “authenticated by the Attorney-General”, when the correct public functionary has done just that.

He has produced an authenticated birth certificate – yet the birthers won’t shut up about it. Nor will you.

Alinksy’s “Rules for Radicals was NOT dedicated to Satan.

The book is commonly used by faith-based community action groups – catholic, baptist and jewish that I know of – to educate their organizers.

He acknowledges Lucifer – “a figure of legend, mythology, or history” – as the first effective radical, one who rebelled against the establishment and won.

This is a too-cute claim of the effectiveness of radical action inside the establishment – ‘See, even G_d isn’t immune.’ It is NOT a dedication to Satan.

Cracked is wrong.

…been shot at and had more than my share of guns pointed at my head, and also earned a few medals, specifically for bravery, when I served in the military. I’ve put myself in dangerous situations, on behalf of others, more times than I can count or care to remember.

If true, this is certainly praiseworthy — but in this context it is merely the Argument from Unrelated Qualifications. I have two patents — does that mean I would make a great professional football player? By the same token, if you’ve demonstrated great bravery in a military context, that doesn’t reflect in any way whatsoever on the quality of your blog or the validity of your views on whether Obama has sufficiently addressed the birthers.

In the spirit of pedantic nitpicking I would like to point out that the Church of Satan are objectivists (Randroids), hardly socialists.

I don’t know why everyone is going on about whether Obam is a natural born American when the real issue is whether he is even a mammal. I heard he was a shape shifting reptile.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again:

As someone who’s always liked science, to actually engage with scientists has to be one of the most disappointing experiences of my life.

Like the college professors (who probably schooled the lot of you) you have so much invested in maintaining your leftist ideology, you show no common sense when confronted with anything else. You grasp, and flail, and go waaay out on a limb – saying anything to defend the indefensible – and, somehow, think I’m going to miss it, like I’m as clueless as you are.

How many times have I said, in post after post, that I’m not a birther? But how many times, in post after post, have you guys insisted – insisted – that I am? You are just projecting your own stupidity onto me – just as Orac projected his racism onto the birthers – and letting the sarcasm fly! My ideas mean nothing to you – my language means everything.

That’s real scientific logic at work!

How many times have I said, in post after post, that I think Obama merely handled the birther situation wrong? But how many times, in post after post, have you guys insisted that he didn’t – though you admit the situation has gotten totally out of hand? How can that be?

Because there’s real scientific logic at work!

How about this person, calling him/herself “Raging Bee”, claiming there’s “insecure bluster” coming from me? Projecting a bit, maybe? From what I can see, there’s only one me – against a whole army of y’all – so who’s the insecure one here?

That’s really insecure scientific logic at work!

Or how about his/her claim that “Anyone who would link Barack Obama to Satan in any way, literal or figurative, is, quite simply, both insane and stupid”? Surely, as all leftists do, she understands Christian cosmology (but probably stays blithely unaware about the NewAge strain) so she also understands that when a politician is being called “The Messiah”, and “The One” – and he himself claims that he’s going to do miracles – people are going to talk. BTW, I notice all you supporters – including Orac – haven’t dissed any of that Obama is God talk, or the media bias he receives, as vehemently as you do his opponents – why not?

Because you’re using real scientific logic!!!

Or how about Lee, claiming “Alinksy’s ‘Rules for Radicals’ was NOT dedicated to Satan,…He acknowledges Lucifer – ‘a figure of legend, mythology, or history’ – as the first effective radical, one who rebelled against the establishment and won,..it is NOT a dedication to Satan.”

There’s only one little problem: Alinksy does it in the book’s dedication!!!

Real scientific logic at work!

Then there’s James Sweet, using my claim to bravery to say “that doesn’t reflect in any way whatsoever on the quality of your blog or the validity of your views” – which have, both, been picked up by other blogs – including my sister blog, Panda Bear, M.D., and the post-cult therapy-oriented Didlleyblog, and has lots of praise right there on the front – is what?

Real scientific logic at work!

Are you guys catching my drift yet? Talking to you “scientists” is like talking to a bunch of U.F.O. nuts: you see what you want to see. And, while my words may be harsh, your behavior is atrocious. Listen to Orac:

“My Catholic upbringing taught me that Lucifer and Satan were one in the same.”

But when I used the names Lucifer and Satan interchangeably, did he respond like he knew “Lucifer and Satan were one in the same”? No – he assumed I was stupid – just as he assumed the birthers were racist. So he projected his own stupidity onto me – just as he projected his racism onto the birthers – and let the sarcasm fly!

Now that’s what I call real scientific logic at work!

Orac doesn’t like my style. Fine. I don’t always like his as well, but I read his blog, post lots of praiseworthy shit about and from him, and criticize him when I think it’s called for. Why do I do it? Because my assumption is he’s a big boy and, as far as I’m concerned, we’re on the same team.

But he doesn’t even bother to read my blog – though I was the first guy to tell him Homeopathy is a cult. I was the first guy to tell him they were infiltrating the hospitals. I was the first guy to tell him he’s fighting this shit all wrong – the first guy to tell him countless things related to NewAge – only to have to listen to him whine and moan when the writing on the wall became so clear he had no other choice but to whine and moan. And he never apologizes for being wrong and abusing my good nature, gives me any credit, or thanks. None. He hasn’t even covered my case, when it would do a world of good, and he has better access to it than most.

That’s what I call real scientific logic at work!

You guys aren’t “scientists”, you’re children playing scientists, after being raised in a Leftist NewAge culture that encourages delayed adolescence. You’re so sure the birthers are being hard-headed, but when was the last time you held yourselves – especially your own political views – to any tough intellectual scrutiny?

I’m not a scientist, so skepticism of my own ideas is not my mandate, but it’s supposed to be yours. When was the last time you tried it? All I see is you guys, twisting yourselves into pretzels, as you (probably a bunch of my fellow atheists) try to defend a man who put up no argument when people were saying he held metaphysical powers. You ought to be ashamed.

I’m going to stop here but, you can be assured, I can go on, and on, and on in this same vein, because you have no defense for what you’re doing and saying. You’re lying, to me and to yourselves, and, at this point, I’m almost grateful it was Orac’s open racism that allowed this black man to get in your face and tell you just how wrong you can be in defense of the indefensible.

Robin Levett is wrong when he/she says “The keeper of Hawaii’s public records ahs cofnirmed its authenticity… He has produced an authenticated birth certificate”.

Now, if you look at what those officials have actually said (original sources, imagine that!), you’ll see that they never said anything about what’s shown on BHO’s site. All they said is that he has a valid cert on file (their first statement) and that he was born there (the director’s second statement).

If you trust what Robin Levett is telling you, see my name’s link and then look at what those officials have actually said.

Yo, “facts,” I just had a look at your link, and it’s pure shite. You now appear to be down to admitting that all the facts point to Obama being born in Hawaii, and nothing points to any other answer, but then insisting “we still don’t know for sure.” Which is exactly what creationists and global-warming-denialists do when presented with conclusive evidence disproving their claims.

Oh, and a bit of diversionary hand-waving about how someone said one thing and not something almost identical, therefore there’s still a controversy. Again, just like the creationists and AGW denialists.

We’ve all heard your kind of BS before: it’s callled “obscurantism,” and it offers no insight and serves no useful purpose.

I’d hope that others could be able to do what I’d be able to do in the same situation: realize what the note at the beginning of my name’s link means and adjust accordingly. Obviously, that’s not going to be good enough due to the wide variety of people who visit that page, including those like “Raging Bee”.

And, it isn’t a “diversion” to point out that what those officials said doesn’t match up to what Robin Levett said. And, it’s vitally important for those who want an at least somewhat honest MSM that it’s pointed out that they’ve consistently lied and misled about this issue.

I’d hope that others could be able to do what I’d be able to do in the same situation: realize what the note at the beginning of my name’s link means…

The note you mention says: “Hawaii had not said that he was born there…” Which is pure hairsplitting BS: Obama’s COLB, an official document generated and verified by the state of Hawaii, DID say he was born there, and relevant officials have confirmed that the facts on the COLB are correct according to their own records. So yes, “Hawaii” has been saying for a LONG TIME that Obama was born in Hawaii.

So what the fuck are you on about again?

The Crack Emcee:

I think you misunderstood me. Perhaps deliberately. I was comparing you to a Moon hoax proponent. My point was that Barack Obama is in a no-win situation. He tried ignoring the crazies for a while, which is the usual wise thing to do, but eventually their volume got loud enough that he decided to go ahead and call their bluff by showing his birth certificate. Naturally, this didn’t quiet them in the least. Most of them are still clinging to bizarre technicalities to assert that this isn’t *really* his *really real* birth certificate, while suggesting that there is some sort of conspiracy within the Hawaiian government. A few are calling it a forgery. You appear to be in the former category. This is akin to Bart Sibrel saying “ah, but NASA hasn’t explained why there’s a C printed on this one rock here!”

I think your last paragraph gives us a clue: it’s written cynically, like a political strategist, not like a normal person.

Well, I am pretty cynical about politics, but I really am a regular person. I’d suck at political strategy. I’m too nice.

I do think McCain is a very decent person. His party — not so much. Unfortunately, our system rewards parties which are cutthroat in their strategies, and I’m not sure there’s really a way to fix that without losing the strengths that our political system has.

Finally, people “rarely seem troubled by McCain’s case” because they have no doubt about where McCain stands and where his heart is.

And that is precisely why it is so hypocritical of the birthers to say they “just want to know the truth”. They don’t. They want to discredit Obama. The truth is secondary to that, and any “truth” which might threaten McCain is to be ignored, even if it is on equal footing.

This is not us – it’s not “American” – so the idea he might not be an American has a lot of resonance.

I disagree — both with the idea that Obama’s policies are unamerican, and with the idea that most Americans feel that way. It is not unamerican to have different ideas. However, it may be unamerican to consider differences of opinion as serious enough to justify deliberate distortion of truth to unfairly discredit a person. (The birther argument is, essentially, the epitome of an ad hominem argument.)

It is true what you say, that some Americans think that Obama might not be a “true” American. (Which makes me think of the “no true Scotsman” fallacy, honestly.) I have yet to meet one who has arrived at this opinion through reason, logic, and facts. Rather, they have decided they don’t like him (usually because he’s a Democrat, though sometimes because he’s black) and then have embarked on a convoluted series of justifications for that position. You are correct — they don’t doubt his Americanness because of his birth certificate. They doubt it because they don’t like him. The birth certificate is immaterial.

The no-moonies are the same way; the real reason they doubt Apollo is because they have an irrational distrust of scientists and/or NASA and/or the US government and are eager to find anything that seems to justify their otherwise absurd position.

“But how many times, in post after post, have you guys insisted – insisted – that I am?”

We insisted you were because you said you were. Oops my mistake, holding you to what you say is just arguing semantics. None of us are able to psychically read your mind to understand what you really mean when you make two mutually exclusive statements.

Matt,

“As National Review pointed out, the Certification of Live Birth serves as a birth certificate and is the only form currently issued by the Hawaii department of Health, a consequence of a late-90s attempt to streamline state government. Obama couldn’t get the long-form birth certificate even if he requested it in person.”

I think you’ve hit the problem on the head right there. I didn’t know that, and I bet most birthers don’t either.

JohnV,

You’re an ass.

For an internet Tough Guy, Crack Emcee certainly is thin-skinned and desperate for attention and approval (did you know Panda Bear MD was a sister blog?). This observation will probably provoke yet another thousand-word spate of logorrheic yapping, complete with several dozen references to his own blog.

Yeah, woo loving senators Orrin Hatch and Dan Burton are such extreme leftists.

All they said is that he has a valid cert on file (their first statement) and that he was born there (the director’s second statement).

If he was born there, what’s the problem? Is the problem that he said “Obama was born there” rather than “the certificate says Obama was born there”? Or is the “there” somewhere other than Hawaii?

“Yeah, woo loving senators Orrin Hatch and Dan Burton are such extreme leftists.”

That’s two – you wanna do a count and see which side wins?

I don’t think so. You guys are hypocritically batting for the wrong team – and you know it.

No Person except a natural born Citizen […] shall be eligible to the Office of President;

Wait, the birthers are saying Obama’s mom had a caesarian? I’m so confused…

All this birther nonsense is just a way to give wing-nuts an excuse to engage in behavior that they would call treasonous if a “liberal” has engaged in it.

And correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t there still two wars going on? How is it that the unquestioned loyalty toward the Commander-in-Chief that was demanded during Bush II is now just a distant memory?

To the folks asking for a statute defining what natural born means, you seem to forget that the United States is a common law country, that inherited its common law from England. The federal and all state govermemnts, other than Louisiana, based its law on existing English case law. This is the reason courts will sometimes talk about English cases that predate the United States.

The right to habeas corpus does not come from the Constitution, it comes from English common law. Although the Constitution talks about suspension of the right, it does not explicitly give citizens that right because it is presumed to exist. The same is true of the term natural born, which at the time meant a citizen at birth. That meaning had been established through centuries of English common law.

Crackhead says:

“Or how about Lee, claiming “Alinksy’s ‘Rules for Radicals’ was NOT dedicated to Satan,…He acknowledges Lucifer – ‘a figure of legend, mythology, or history’ – as the first effective radical, one who rebelled against the establishment and won,..it is NOT a dedication to Satan.”

There’s only one little problem: Alinksy does it in the book’s dedication!!!””
—-

Wrong.

Rules for Radicals is dedicated “To Irene.”

In the 1971 and 1972 editions of Rules for Radicals – the only editions that carry the Lucifer quote – there is a blank page following the dedication page, and then a page of quotes. On that page of quotes, the controversial “Lucifer’ quote is one of three. The other two quotes are by Hillel and Thomas Payne.

“Where there are no men, be thou a man.” Hillel

“Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of devils, if I were to make a whore of my soul.” Thomas Payne.

Lest we forget an over the shoulder acknowledgment to the very first radical: from all our legends, mythology and history, (and who is to know where mythology leaves off and history begins – or which is which) , the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom – Lucifer.” Saul Alinsky

—-

Crackhead should be less easily convinced by the crap he reads on raving-right blogs.

For instance, I’m not going to diss Oprah as “evil” – which I and Orac have – and, then, turn around and support for her hand-picked candidate for president.

There’s nothing hypocritical or inconsistent about this, and you know it. Oprah is unreliable, but she got her Presidential vote right. (And no, she didn’t “handpick” Obama.)

Or vote for a guy people call “The Messiah” and not even mention the lunacy of that…

We voted for Obama because he’s a better man than all of the national Republican Party put together. Given how badly your party managed everything it touched, there’s nothing “loony” about voting against it.

…or not openly wonder and criticize the most massive case of media bias, in support of him, this nation has ever seen.

Quit blaming the media — the FACTS have a liberal bias. You’re only blaming the media because you don’t have the guts to take responsibility for your own failure.

Really, man, come on. I can understand an honest debate…

No, actually, you’ve proven you can’t.

So once again, crack-boy, the dishoesty is all on your side of this debate.

Crackhead:
“if I made a mistake, and I concede I may have, then I’m willing to admit it – how about you guys? ”

You made a claim about Alinsky, and used it to tar Obama. I pointed out that your claim was wrong, and why. You defended your claim by proffering an additional “fact” that is simply not true, and in the process insulted me. I corrected your “fact,” showing that it is simply wrong. You respond by saying you would admit an error – while not admitting the error.

“I may have” in the face of a clear demonstration that what you said is simply not true, is not an admission of error. It is bluster – which is about all you’ve shown here so far.

“Real scientific logic at work!” Indeed.

Crackhead:
“You’ve “proven” nothing – you stated something – providing no link or any other evidence.”

Which is precisely what you did when you made the “Alinsky dedicated it to Satan” charge.

The difference is, I’m correct, you are not. I have several editions of the book sitting right here. My wife spent several years as a community organizer for a faith-based organization (jesuit, jewish and baptist), Alinsky was required reading for the job, and we acquired several copies. I just described and quoted the relevant portions to you.

In other words, I did my homework before mouthing off. You did not – your original charge was wrong and apparently completely unresearched. Now you’re claiming some kind of helplessness in your ability to reality check your own effing claims after I tell you exactly how the claim was wrong? Speaking of children…

I don’t make it a habit to play research librarian for too-lazy-to-do-his-own-homework random blustering a-holes on the internet, crackhead.

Are you fucking kidding me? You’re (maybe) correct that it’s not in the dedication – Big Fucking Whoop!!! It’s still a book with a glowing-fucking-reference to Satan, you idiot!! What “good” could come of it? He’s supposed to be the Dark Lord of Evil, you dummy!!!

This, methinks, is about as close as we will ever see the Crack get to admitting he was wrong about anything.

Really, Orac – after all that – that’s all you have to say? To defend one silly point, probably the silliest one in the whole thread?

You’re sad, dude.

No, what’s apparent is you’re cherry picking the points to answer. You left quite a bit out there – what’s the matter?

I should probably drop this – Crackhead is already well and truly discredited by his own words – but…

Crackhead:
“And let me get this straight: You’re going to diss me for (what you say is) doing the wrong thing – by doing it yourself?!?”

Crackhead, I really don’t give a damn whether you bother to link your crap. It took me about 45 seconds to find the source of your blithering about Alinsky, and I linked it for you. I’m not claiming superiority over you on that basis, or any other. I am pointing out that you are a dishonest little f***, because you are attacking other people by making false claims about a book you clearly haven’t even read.

Crackhead:
“Are you fucking kidding me? You’re (maybe) correct that it’s not in the dedication”

See, if you had read the book, or had access to it now, or had even bothered to get access you would know whether I was correct or not. (hint – there are limited-access sources that show the dedication page and quotes pages, available here on the internets). All you have to do is look at the dedication page and the quotes page I cited. The fact that you cant say one way or the other whether Im correct, means you have been citing a book that clearly YOU DON’T HAVE and HAVE NOT READ in attacks on others.

THAT, crackhead, is why you’re a dishonest fuckhead – not your failure to cite your sources.

Crackhead:
“No, what’s apparent is you’re cherry picking the points to answer. You left quite a bit out there – what’s the matter?”

No, crackhead – I went after the first two points you made, in that order. You were 0 for 2 factually, and dishonest on both – why on earth would I bother to pay any more attention after that? But the fact is, I did, to an extent. I made the comment that all the rest of those were taken out of context. I could demolish the rest, too – some of them without even bothering to bring in context beyond what you’ve provided, because your commentary on many of them is truly cracked. But you aren’t worth it, crackhead.

Lee,

If there’s one thing I’ve learned on Respectful Insolence, it’s that there’s a big difference between liking science – a process – and liking scientists, who can be as sick a bunch of little creeps as any NewAgers I’ve ever encountered. Considering so many have fallen for NewAge crap in the past – including Orac with accupunture – it’s hardly surprising that you guys don’t have the good sense to determine what’s what without science putting some parameters down for you: Scientists are hardly known as the most sociably adept individuals, and considering they can easily go the Joseph Mengele or Linus Pauling route, I guess I never should’ve expected more.

That said, the quote about the Devil is in Rules For Radicals (you don’t deny it) so all you’ve “proven” is my claim it’s in the dedication is inaccurate – which only makes me “a dishonest little f***” on a completely irrelevant point – except to immature assholes like y’all. You win – nothing. Happy? You can violently pat yourselves on the back now over a hollow victory. It just makes your insecurity, over my side’s influence creeping back into power, all the more obvious.

And BTW, on a related point, I don’t own a bible but guess what? I may not know what chapter and verse it is, but I know – somewhere in there – it says the world was created in 7 days, so I still talk about it and claim anyone who bases their beliefs on what’s in that book is a fucktard – just as I did with Rules For Radicals , Obama, you, and your wife. You’re corrupted, misguided, individuals who – in truth – are helping no one with your “community organizing” (As a black person, I’ve had ample opportunity to see the results of your “work”, just as the rest of the country is seeing it now). Whatever. Democrats win a presidential election every 25 years or so, and then, megalomaniacly, think they’re going to take over the world – never happens. So enjoy your moment in the sun, kids, then hurry back under the rock you crawled from under. It’s where you belong: Someplace dark and hot that “Satan” would enjoy knowing is well populated.

Next, no, you haven’t taken on the rest of my points because you’re a coward. Taken together (Alinsky’s written instructions, their results, along with how he conducted his personal life) you don’t have a leg to stand on. You’ve got a president because we in the opposition didn’t think so many could be so stupid as to believe someone who would lie so blatantly – even with a media onslaught as a wind to his back – our bad. Clearly, America’s catching on now, and (considering how I, and those like me, feel about him) he’ll be lucky if he’s not eventually impeached. As Bill Whittle says, the days of playing political softball with you guys are over: We know what you’re like, and this time – when you’ve fallen and can’t get up – a kick to the face is all you’re going to get.

And, finally – as a closing example of your great scientific mind at work – if I’m so not worth it, why are you on my dick?

Part II of Birthers on Parade. Enjoy! Especially you, Mr. CE.

I’m a friend of The Crack Emcee, and I’m sad to say he is batshit crazy. As this “conversation” shows, his favorite “debate” tactic lately is a combo of lying and playing dumb. He’s a victim of a messy, shitty divorce; he used to be a great rapper. Just thought you should know.

This controversy would be hilarious if it weren’t for the fact that many people are taking it seriously and so are some in the media. I took the time before writing this post to read through the material on the Birthers website http://www.birthers.org and decided that the crackpots writing this are just that, crackpots. It’s hard to take someone/anyone serious if they cannot spell or use proper grammar. The editor at birthers.org should look up the difference between “lose” and “loose” and use the correct one. Also, what does “cooberating” mean? I’m guessing corroborating. I think under ‘birther’ in the dictionary it should read ‘racist’.