Don’t listen to these “medical voices,” or: How did I miss this loony antivaccine site before?

So medical quackery provides further proof that when you go out far enough at each end of the old left-right spectrum you meet round the back somewhere…

…and it’s not a nice place!

So, anyone who disagrees with Orac is anti-vaccine/anti-science. As if David is the only voice of reason in the Medical/scientific community.

What an arrogant, conceited little prick you are, David. You are absolutely repulsive.

re #3

I’ll take strawman for 200 Alex. Bonus! Today’s daily double…what is an ad hominem…

Admittedly, I don’t spend a lot of time at these sites. I tend to spend my time with my non-vaccine damaged autistic child. But, is it a usual theme to claim that vaccines don’t prevent disease? That just seems ridiculous. Not that all of it isn’t ridiculous but….

Not many feedback options at the site… I looked it over and found no place to leave comments… I voted down all their videos though, and you should do the same (they all only have one or two votes so far).

It is a scary, polished web site… lots of folks with lab coats…

@Leanne

But, is it a usual theme to claim that vaccines don’t prevent disease?

At least one person usually brings it up in a thread. The anti-vax camp likes to point to disease rates from the CDC that were “on a downward trend” before vaccines, yet they fail to mention that once vaccines were introduced, the rates dropped dramatically, far more than the “natural” trend they point to (which was only looking at a few years to begin with).

There are quite a few who go so far as to deny the germ theory of disease, saying that the bacteria and viruses don’t actually do any harm.

The anti-vax camp likes to point to disease rates from the CDC that were “on a downward trend” before vaccines, yet they fail to mention that once vaccines were introduced, the rates dropped dramatically, far more than the “natural” trend they point to (which was only looking at a few years to begin with).

Well, their favorite tactic is to point out that mortality from a given disease was on the way down before the vaccine was introduced. In many cases (measles, for example), the actual incidence of disease did not change until the vaccine was introduced, at which point it dropped like a stone.

When faced with those facts, they retreat to idiotic defenses like “well, the disease was still around, but doctors refused to recognize it because the patients had been vaccinated.”

Idiots at #2 and #3 in the comments? They are definatly getting quicker, I wonder if they have some kind of detection system in place to pick up on anyone who dares disagree with them…

It’s nice that MVVIC shot its attempt at credibility in the head right off, with vaccines said to be worse than rape and making Hitler pale into insignificance. That’s a whopping, toxin-laden dose of the crazy right there.

In case anyone is curious about Leo Rebello’s Revised Oath for doctors, it’s available in its complete glory here:

http://www.petitiononline.com/dlr28klr/petition.html

It includes the following:

“I shall not rape tiny tots with mercury laced innoculations or vaccinations, for they pollute the blood stream of small children leading to serious diseases like AIDS, Cancers, Autism, etc.;
I shall not prescribe lethal drugs, like anti-retrovirals, chemotherapy, or give ECT to my patients…”If I cannot treat a disease, I shall not say that AIDS, cancers, diabetes has no cure.
But will tell the patient to try other systems of medicine.”

But especially, seek out crank magnetism – it’s better than copper bracelets.

Unfortunately, Dr. Rebello violates his own preachings even before his oath is finished:

“I shall not frighten my patients with unnecessary comments, opinions or advice.”

Orac said: “As for Professor Leo Rebello, ND, MD, PhD, DSc., F.F.Hom., DHS, MBA, I really don’t know much about him other than that he really, really needs to realize that putting that many initials after his name does not impress”

Indeed, he doesn’t boast of being an FAAP, like our antivax master of Pediatricks*, Dr. Jay Gordon. Can’t get anywhere without an FAAP.

*This is the title of one section on Dr. Jay’s website, which as a whole should be given the name Stupid Pediatricks.

Well, their favorite tactic is to point out that mortality from a given disease was on the way down before the vaccine was introduced. In many cases (measles, for example), the actual incidence of disease did not change until the vaccine was introduced, at which point it dropped like a stone.

It’s more insidious than that even — they trot out the mortality charts, but don’t actually call it that. They say something vague like “the measles rate” and hope that nobody notices.

And yes, a large portion of the anti-vax movement actually believes that vaccines have had no effect on the incidence of disease. It truly boggles the mind…

how much longer will it be until there are enough unvaccinated kids that there will be a reasonable sample size to determine if the rates of autism changed for the unfortunate children? there has already been anecdotal evidence for resurgence of measles etc. what about autism?

(i feel icky just thinking about it.)

This fall we will see Swine Flu in the northern hemisphere, at full strength. Reports are that the young are suffering disproportionally, and are listed as priority recipients of the vaccine, when it is offered. I assume that the anti-vaxers will avoid this shot, and I suppose that their children will be suffering the flu more than others’.

I really hope that the rate of severe secondary infections is low for them.

Some commenters above mentioned frequent themes of anti-vaxers today;here are a few quotes from a 1960 compilation of (earlier) articles in Prevention Magazine(“The Prevention Method for Better Health” by J.I.Rodale & Staff,Rodale Press,1960):1.”Vaccination is a present day evil:we believe that a time will come when we will be so healthy that vaccination will be unnecessary”.2.”There is pretty good general acceptance at present that smallpox results from unhygienic conditions”,3.”They cite cases of serious upsets suffered by vaccinated babies and even some deaths attributed to artificial immunization”, and 4.”Just as outward sanitation has rid us of some of the basic causes of diphtheria so internal cleanliness will surely take care of the rest of the problem.” It’s *deja wu* all over again!

Ugh, Seed is still having problems with woo ads showing up. Out of the three google ads at the top of this page, one is for “5 Worst Vaccines Exposed” (www.douglassreport.com) and one is for a homeopathic web site (www.masharosen.com).

@The Hypocrisy! It Burns!!

So, anyone who disagrees with Orac is anti-vaccine…

No, what makes them anti-vaccine is:

* The claim that vaccines are “unnecessary” (Just from the title of their article Vaccines : Untested, Unsafe and Unnecessary)

* More claims that vaccines don’t work.

* The repetition of the lie that the Amish neither vaccinate nor get autism (from Pretty Big Secret)

* The claim that vaccines are “worse than rape”.

If that doesn’t qualify them as anti-vaccine, what would?

Re Post #26 and osteopathy…probably not news to most posters here, but I only recently discovered that there’s “Osteopathy,” and then there’s “Osteopathic Medicine.” The latter is more-or-less mainstream. The former is undilute woo. Cranial plate manipulation? Ewww!

Dear zealots of the truth!!!!

What you guys say about:

– baxter sending 72 kilos of the avian flu virus instead of vaccine to several other countries in europe.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/02/27/8560781.html

– Militar laboratory had 9.200 dangerous virus/bacterias not catalogued.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/17/AR2009061703271.html

Of course, this you don’t mention as you can’t deny, even the manipulated media is showing it.

Whoops!
H5N1 is the bird flu virus that contaminated Baxter’s culture samples. My bad.

Hey, hey! That’s all natural garbage, leading to all-natural profits, so off course it’s better!!

As I have described so clearly in my book and on my CD. Only $19.95 each plus S&H. Buy them both and pay only once for the H.

Good ol’ Jock Doubleday and his scam challenge. Read more about it here:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=322

And I will now repeat my comment the conditions that shows he has no intention of paying up:

To illustrate that Doubleday has no intention of even attempting allow anyone to take the challenge, read one of the links in LeftbrainRightbrain. That link is the contract which has all sorts of bizarre requirements:
http://www.spontaneouscreation.org/SC/ContractPartA.htm (for some reason this link no longer occurs in the offer letter, using the Wayback machine I found it disappeared late 2007).

Begin quote
A. Psychiatric Evaluations

Participant agrees to undergo psychiatric evaluations ….

B. Mental Health Records

Participant agrees to submit, within 45 (forty-five) days of Participant’s signing of the Agreement, documents comprising a verifiable written history of all psychological counseling and therapy …

C. Email Examination

Participant agrees to take a written open-book examination (the “Basic Exam”) before becoming eligible to receive Part B of the Agreement….

D. Book Purchase

To assure Participant’s complete and thorough familiarity with and understanding of possible immediate and long-term physical and psychological hazards of chemicals commonly used as disinfectant, preservative, medium, or other additives in vaccines, as well as possible immediate and long-term behavioral changes that may occur from ingestion of or contact with these chemicals, Participant agrees to obtain at Participant’s cost the following recently published books (the “Books”):…

E. Written Examination

Participant agrees to take a written closed-book examination …

F. Good Health Certification

To certify that Participant is in normal health (”Good Health”) (so that, upon Participant’s possible sickness or death after the ingestion of the Mixture, Participant and/or agents of Participant cannot reasonably claim that sickness or death was due to causes other than the ingestion of the Mixture), Participant agrees to a general physical exam including a blood test (the “Physical Exam”), at Participant’s expense,…

Securing of Medical Professionals:

Participant agrees to secure three medical professionals …

Television Appearances:

Participant agrees to make at least five regional or national television appearances …

Participant Donations:

In the event that Participant signs Part A of the Agreement but fails to sign the Agreement-in-Full within 120 (one hundred and twenty) days of the signing of Part A of the Agreement, Participant agrees to donate by check the amount of $5,000.00 (five thousand U.S. dollars),…

End quote

So it is possible to get rheumatoid arthrits without having implants? I didn’t think that was possible?

(kidding)

It just reminds me of those sad folks on mothering.com, for example, who weren’t aware that there were non-vaccinated kids with autism.

Hmmm, I wonder how they would ever get that idea?

Yeah I agree. It seems that the world now has two dimensions. The one who believes and support vaccines and the other side who don’t. More and more issues arise that really makes us all confused about which side we should believe in. I think we all need to know the truth about vaccination.

Reminds me of something that happened right as the whole implants scare was taking off. My parents, sister, and I were watching the news and there was a story which was basically “X% of women with implants report symptoms like these.” My sister (a professional cellist with minimal science background, but knows a good bit about lupus because she has it) immediately noticed, “wait a second, X% is pretty close to the number of women estimated to have undiagnosed lupus – and those are lupus symptoms!”

So yeah, a complete laywoman was able to spot the problem immediately from a non-detailed news report.

The one who believes … vaccines and the other side who don’t

I guess I don’t know what it means to “believe vaccines”? What is there to believe? Vaccinations prevent disease. This is empirically true, and as Orac notes, it’s not a matter of “belief.”

And no, it is not a “two dimensional world” for everyone. Orac mentions the “safety … of vaccinations,” but he is using it in the proper sense. “Safe” does NOT mean “never causes any harm in any way.” With that restriction, nothing is “safe” as anything can be a danger (I liken it to the SNL skit where Dan Akroyd plays the unscrupulous toys to kids, like “Bag of Glass” and “Johnny Switchblade Cammando Punk”; Jane Curtain says, “Isn’t this dangerous?” and he responds that everything is dangerous to a degree and demonstrates with a soft styrofoam ball which he shoves in his mouth and chokes on it).

However, when scientists say vaccines are safe, they aren’t talking about never causing any harm. That’s a black and white view, and they don’t have that. Moreover, the doctor gives you a list of the potential problems associated with vaccines, and an indication of the frequency with which they occur. It’s anything but a two dimensional view.

So in the end, they have to weigh the benefits and costs of using the vaccines. The CDC, for example, panels some of the top doctors in the field each year to assess the status (efficacy and safety) of vaccinations. They are not basing it on a black and white view. They see the gray very clearly.

No, it is the anti-vaxxers who project the “totally safe in every way” false dichotomy onto vaccine advocates and think that you can’t get autism if you aren’t vaccinated.

Just drink the Big Pharma Kool-Aid….. Medical Voices is legit….

An informative, substantive reply. Thank you greta gisen for rebutting all the concerns raised above with a simple allusion to Evil Big Pharma! You win the internet!

Dylan, for comparison:

So, youre telling me that sodium chloride is not toxic to cells. THIS is unfounded pseudoscience.
Dude, are you honestly unaware of chlorine’s toxicity to any living organism when injected.

Can you see where your logic fails?

Ooooh. It looks like we have a live one with an antivax site I’ve never seen before….

Orec. You are a coward. What are you afraid of? It is you folk who are the aggressors.

Yeah, Oreck (sic), you suck! That’s why you do such an excellent job vacuuming my carpets.

The public gets it. The chiropractors embrace it. The medical Doctors, including pediatric neurologists, are stunned by it. The pharmaceutical and organized medicine cartels – must deny it. The philosophy is “if they cannot deny the message, then they will discredit the messenger.” This is simply how the system works.

Andrew Moulden (Interview): What You Were Never Told About Vaccines.
http://uncensored.co.nz/2009/10/15/dr-andrew-moulden-interview-what-you-were-never-told-about-vaccines/

Why Medical Authorities Went to Such Extremes to Silence Dr. Andrew Wakefield. Video of Andrew Wakefield interviewed by Dr. Mercola. April 10 2010. How the corruption balls rolls!

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/04/10/wakefield-interview.aspx

A complete analysis of the main stream claimed to studies on vaccines and autism
http://www.putchildrenfirst.org/aboutus.html

Central Figure in CDC Vaccine Cover-Up Absconds With $2M. (Danish vaccine studies).
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/central-figure-in-cdc-vac_b_494303.html

Poul Thorsen’s Mutating Resume.
http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/03/poul-thorsens-mutating-resume.html

First Fraud: Dr. Poul Thorsen and the original “Danish Study”.
http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/03/first-fraud-dr-poul-thorsen-and-the-original-danish-study.html

NBC 11 Atlanta Reports: Vaccine Researcher Flees with $2M
http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/03/nbc-11-atlanta-reports-.html

Orec, show us that science you have showing that vaccines and multiple vaccines on the same day are safe and effective? What a bunch of garbage the CDC wrote up; some science that is! In your entire article all I read about was bashing the sources, and no real address of the information. WE need to get you some Gardasil, Menactra, and 3 other vaccines and give you those like many girls did; hope you don’t crash your car while having a seizure, like some of them did. You should be fine; all they have to do is watch you for 15 minutes. If you come back all messed up, it wasn’t the Gardasil, and your doctor will give you enough tests to bankrupt you parents, and never find a thing. “Oh, you have a new medical condition”!!!

http://www.cynthiajanak.com/20081202NewMedicalConditions.html

Gardasil Victim Speaks Out After 2 Years.

Don’t listen to the vaccine conspiracy theorists; they all have tin foil hats on, and will invade our modern medicine world and destroy our lies about the vaccine scared cow!
http://www.medalerts.org/

@wildman, Great Post! Until your mind can conceive the unthinkable…that we really don’t need vaccines, and that we have been ‘socialized’ to think we would die if we didn’t get all ‘our shots’! You really can’t ‘get it’. It took me 2 months of constant reading to actually come to terms with not vaccinating our first child.

Also, I have to re-read info often just to remind myself why my wife and I chose not to vaccinate. We live in a ‘Disease Economy’. One can watch movies like Food Inc. and without a doubt know that what they are saying is true–because you can verify the information much easier. Is it any wonder the vaccine industry would be any different.

The truth will set you free.

Becky, I think they just changed the web address to http://www.imcv.info/ .

There is a very active post about them going on here (you’ll love the resident troll Th1/Th2!):
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=5219

Chuck, please read the months old article you just commented on a bit more clearly. The person who made that video you linked to is mentioned:

In case you don’t know who these “luminaries” are, Sherri Tenpenny is an infamous anti-vaccine activist whose website, book (Saying No To Vaccines), book blog, and blog are chock full of vaccine pseudoscience. Heck, she even has her own page on Whale.to and has appeared on über-crank Alex Jones’ show (he of Prison Planet) to lay down some fine conspiracy mongering about the swine flu. Yes, if I were looking for reliable information about vaccines, Dr. Tenpenny is someone I’d go to…not.

If you don’t understand the reference to whale.to, see Scopie’s Law:

In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses you the argument immediately …and gets you laughed out of the room.

Plus more on Tenpenny!

Perhaps you can share your research with us on more recent threads.

Listen, anyone who questions vaccines is frowned upon by people like yourselves almost instantly. When I told my first childs ped. that I was still researching vaccines and not sure if I wanted to continue with them he became so angry and treated me like I was stupid. “What is there to research?” He said, “if they were not good for childeren the govt. would not allow us to give them.” “My own childeren were vaccinated and they are perfect.” Well, my grandfather smoked and drank his whole life and he lived to be 83 years old, does that mean that everyone can do the same? No! By the way alot of the information that Tenpenny quotes or uses as reference is from the CDC. Anyway anybody like Tenpenny that tries to make people aware of vaccines and the things that they may or may not cause or do is considered a “Quack” to most doctors or “Scientist.” What is Science? The word Experiment pops in my head. Anyway here is some more numbers that blows my mind.

•Around 5.4 million deaths a year are caused by tobacco.
* Smoking is set to kill 6.5 million people in 2015 and 8.3 million humans in 2030, with the biggest rise in low-and middle-income countries.

* Every 6.5 seconds a current or former smoker dies, according to the World Health Organization (WHO).

* An estimated 1.3 billion people are smokers worldwide

•Over 443,000 Americans (over 18 percent of all deaths) die because of smoking each year. Secondhand smoke kills about 50,000 of them.

•1.2 million people in China die because of smoking each year. That’s 2,000 people a day.

•Tobacco use will kill 1 billion people in the 21st century if current smoking trends continue.

•33 percent to 50 percent of all smokers are killed by their habit.
* Smokers die on average 15 years sooner than nonsmokers.

NOW LET ME ASK YOU THIS? THE GOVT. KNOWS THESE NUMBERS RIGHT? 50,000 PEOPLE A YEAR DIE FROM SECOND HAND SMOKE? IT WASNT ALL THAT LONG AGO THAT SECOND HAND SMOKE BECAME A CONCERN? WHY DID IT TAKE SO LONG FOR PEOPLE TO FIND OUT THAT SECOND HAND SMOKE WAS KILLING PEOPLE? I KONW THERE WAS SOME “QUACKS” OUT THERE TRYING TO MAKE PEOPLE AWARE BUT IT TOOK AAALLLLLOOONNNNGGGG TIME BEFORE IT WAS MADE OF CONCERN AND BELIEVED.

HERE IS WHAT THE GOVT IS MAKING OFF OF CIGARETTES AND WHY THEY ARE ALLOWED TODAY, INFACT EVEN THOUGH IT IS KNOW THAT SECOND HAND SMOKE IS A KILLER, THE LADY AT THE PARK CAN SMOKE AT THE TABLE RIGHT NEXT TO ME AND MY CHILDEREN? FOR YOU NON SMOKERS, I KNOW YOU KNOW HOW IRRITATING AND DISCUSTING THAT SMELL IS. THAT IS GOING STRAIGHT INTO YOUR LUNGS AND ALLOWED BY THE GOVT. AGAIN HERE IS WHAT THE TOBBACO(sp?) COMPANIES BRING TO THE GOVT EVERY YEAR. BILLIONS!!!

# Federal excise taxes – $7,307,440,000
# State and local excise taxes – $15,087,691,000
# State cigarette sales taxes – $4,764,730,000
# Tobacco settlement payments – $7,200,000,000

The govt does not protect you, it is up to you to protect yourself and your family. Do some research on what these vaccines are TRYING to prevent. People are so scared to not vaccinate because of what has been told to us about these diseases, how about chicken pox, I think everyone I know has had the chicken pox in my age group. It is a more recent vaccine 1995 I believe, give it another 15 years and people will think the worst of chicken pox because none of them were around to experience it and know that it is no big deal. My father had measles, and mumphs, and he is still here and healthy, my grandmother had both and is here and healthy. But now days since none of us hears of measles or mumphs anymore, we are scared to hear those words and think its the end of the world if our childeren were to get it. Anyway this is my thoughts to each their own, see I can accept people that want to get their childeren vaccinated, I dont frown upon them, but people who do not vaccinate are frowned upon? Weird huh? What do people care if my kid is not vaccinated, yours is so he cant catch anything my kid is carrying anyways right? Or does the vaccine become less effective over time? Maybee not effective at all? Well atleast the chicken pox vaccine kept you from getting chicken pox when you were younger, now that you are older your chances of dying from it are greater? HHmmmmmm….

Listen, anyone who questions vaccines is frowned upon by people like yourselves almost instantly.

Anyone who honestly questions is, in general, educated rather than “frowned upon.” What we frown upon are those who do not question, but rather mindlessly accept whatever drivel is thrown at them. And the REAL scorn is saved for those who throw the drivel in the first place.

Was there some sort of relevance to the whole smoking tangent? I don’t see it, if so.

I think everyone I know has had the chicken pox in my age group. It is a more recent vaccine 1995 I believe, give it another 15 years and people will think the worst of chicken pox because none of them were around to experience it and know that it is no big deal.

I had chicken pox as well; it was more than nasty enough to want to avoid. And that’s even ignoring the shingles factor. What exactly is the objection to avoiding it?

My father had measles, and mumphs, and he is still here and healthy, my grandmother had both and is here and healthy. But now days since none of us hears of measles or mumphs anymore, we are scared to hear those words and think its the end of the world if our childeren were to get it.

And if they were among the MANY who had died, they’d no longer be around to be your father and grandmother. Effectively what you’re saying here is that they weren’t 100% lethal, therefore they’re not worth preventing?

Anyway this is my thoughts to each their own, see I can accept people that want to get their childeren vaccinated, I dont frown upon them, but people who do not vaccinate are frowned upon?

Given that they’re exposing their children, and others, to severe risks – far more severe than those of vaccination – it is quite simply the wrong decision not to vaccinate (barring a recognized medical contraindication). There is quite simply no way to honestly evaluate the whole of the evidence and come to any other conclusion.

What do people care if my kid is not vaccinated, yours is so he cant catch anything my kid is carrying anyways right?

Not 100% effective, and some people cannot be vaccinated for real medical reasons. Not to mention, some of us actually care if YOUR kid is killed or permanently injured by the vaccine-preventable diseases you’re unjustifiably not protecting him from.

Well I knew what was coming, the same thing that comes to anyone who seems to not be in favor of Vaccination. Just because I used all CAPS my post discredited
“Don’t use all-caps for entire paragraphs when discussing things with other people on the Internet if you wish to be taken seriously. Generally, the only sensible reaction to people who engage in this sort of behaviour is to dismiss them as cranks and ignore them.”

Spelling errors discredits me as well?

Is this why Tenpenny is discredited? Some references to Whale.to? Did she use caps and spell some things incorrectly?

Do you believe O.J. Simpson was innocent? Was there not enough evidence? There is our GOVT. for you.

Listen, I cook good, awesome actually. I learned everything I know about cooking on the internet, youtube, google, and so on. I didnt go to culinary school, yet I cook better and know more about food than my wife whom went to culinary school? If me and my wife fill out an application or turn in a resume for a job in a 4 star restaurant, My wife will get hired before me, because of her degree. All these parents out there that have problems with their children that they are claiming were caused by the vaccines are not given credit or taken seriously by so many people because they are not Scientists, or dont have a TITLE. The problem is you dont have to be a scientist or have a TITLE other than PARENT to know when your childs problems started.

I dont think there is any conspiracy, there doesn’t have to be, the govt. does what it wants. Its very clear.

But I haven’t said my part: Chuck H., you’re not quite the epitome of the Dunning-Kruger effect, but you’re close.

Chuck:

What does OJ Simpson have to do with vaccines? The verdict of his case was decided by legal protocols, not scientific evidence.

While parental intuition on children’s health is not an unreasonable guide some of the time, all intuition and other non-rational thought processes are prone to cognitive biases (search it on Wikipedia for a decent overview) and shortcuts which sometimes make it easy to come to incorrect conclusions.

A lot of the time, conclusions that vaccines have caused harm end up being cases of post hoc ergo propter hoc thinking. In particular, attempts to relate autism to vaccines have come up against formidable obstacles in terms of lack of supporting evidence from epidemiological studies, in addition to physiological issues (for example, frequent commenter here, daedalus2u points out that people on the ASD spectrum have a particular minicolumn structure in the brain compared to neurotypical people, and that this structure is formed in utero, suggesting there is little reason to expect autism disorders to be related to vaccines).

At any rate, for people who can show that their children have been subject to adverse reactions from vaccines, there is, in the US, a reasonable compensation programme in effect.

To reiterate my point: do you have something other than a YouTube video and a pointer to Whale.to – for preference, a reference to the peer-reviewed literature (which parents like you and musicians like me can learn to read and understand, after all) – to make your case? The problem with Whale.to is that it is a repository of pure, unadulterated crackpottery, such that it can usually be guaranteed to be wrong on almost any scientific subject.

So, maybe you feel offended about not being taken seriously when you use all-caps paragraphs, but as my other advice points and as the above indicates, there’s much more to it than that.

Why do you publish a blog post like this without a SINGLE piece of evidence towards the claim that vaccines are safe? It makes you sound like you’re just spewing propaganda for the drug companies. You can’t rant for several paragraphs about people being pseudoscientists without explaining why they’re wrong.

“You can’t rant for several paragraphs about people being pseudoscientists without explaining why they’re wrong.”
Lennon Aldort | May 30, 2011

They can and do, Lennon, because it’s all pseudoscience anyway. The pseudoscience is necessary to cover up the fact that vaccination is an organised criminal enterprise dressed up as disease prevention.

Here is the real science behind vaccination:

Vaccines as ‘cluster bombs’
http://coto2.wordpress.com/201​1/06/28/vaccines-as-%E2%80%98c​luster-bombs%E2%80%99/

This is the post Erwin’s referring to. There’s some high grade, high octane crazy there:

http://coto2.wordpress.com/2011/06/28/vaccines-as-‘cluster-bombs’/

@Lawrence and Orac – there are times, especially when you point out stuff like this, that I am glad any wordpress blogs are blocked while I am at work. I deal with enough crazy without this.

Here is an example of classic Erwin Alber thinking: Erwin Alber and VINE: Intellectually Bankrupt. A graph has a badly drawn line added, and Erwin thinks it is real because it conforms to his delusional beliefs.

What is it about 18-month-old comment threads that attract Erwin?
I know he’s commenting from New Zealand, and I don’t want people to get the impression that the internet connections there are so slow that blogposts are delayed for a year and a half.

“great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds” Einstein
I believe that you are misinterpreting the whole issue. vaccines are a type of religious practice based on a faulty belief system. I am not born deficient in vaccine toxins, nor is anyone else. Listen to your inner voice. If your inner voice tells you to inject poison and viruses into yourself or others, without first questioning and researching the efficacy of such a practice, then i would tell you to listen more closely or do a little more research.

Listen to your inner voice.

My inner voice says that you’re an idiot.

I understand that you have no “inner voice” otherwise you would recognize that your immune system is beyond comprehension. You are living in an arbitrary paradigm of fear created by the companies that profit from that state of being. Have faith in yourself and your own body. Stop allowing others to convince your eggshell mind of something that is useless(vaccines). Once you are able to surrender your fear and helplessness, you might rise up to be helpful to someone else or yourself. There are other ways to achieve a balanced state of being, without purposely injecting toxins and viruses into our bodies. let me know of any double blind placebo studies that have been successful in proving the effectiveness of vaccines. Safety is questionable only if you are looking the other way.

thousands of heavily examined studies? Who examined them. the drug companies or the FDA, which is funded and run by the companies and individuals that they are supposed to be governing. Show me a double blind placebo study proving eficacy.

mike:

Compose a full thought or a valid philosophy next time 92.

You first. Start with a coherent sentence with proper grammar, and we’ll go from there.

Do you need double-blind studies on the effectiveness of parachutes? Tell me, if vaccines don’t work, what happened to smallpox?

a double blind placebo study conducted to show the effectiveness of any vaccine

Gardasil

a double blind placebo study conducted to show the effectiveness of any vaccine

And one of the first measles vaccines: Efficacy of measles vaccine.

Look at the third and fourth column of the first table. What are they labeled as? Tell us whose children should be delimited in that table.

I believe you are the “sheep”, mike. You are the one regurgitating nonsense you read elsewhere on this two year old article. Instead of believing in the anti-vax propaganda lock, stock and barrel, you should actually check out the claims yourself.

These studies consider the sometimes fatal and horrible direct effects of vaccines commonplace and neccesary. They label them “side effects” to get the sheep to look the other way while selling them something toxic waste. They manufacture your consent and get rich in the process.

“Preventional modalities and lifestyle changes are neccesary to erradicate disease.”

Vaccines are included among preventional modalities in modern medicine, y’know. Isolation, too, but a high-energy civilization can’t run with isolated family farms with only limited contact with the outside world anymore… we need too many skill sets to run the machinery of daily life in the manner we are accustomed.

“Pertussis and tetnus are prevelant in highly immunized people. Polio is caused by the vaccine.”

Crap, and crap. Pertussis and tetanus are not prevalent in immunised people… they can occur in those whose immunisations have “worn off”, but that’s an argument for more, not less, vaccinations. And polio certainly existed before the vaccine was distributed; my mother was alive when the Salk vaccine was created and she saw the effects of polio outbreaks first-hand. And she’d smack you with a wooden spoon for being so obtuse about so many lives.

No, mike, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Go read some real books instead of that Infowars crap you’re wading through.

— Steve

Vaccines are included among preventional modalities in modern medicine, y’know. Isolation, too,

See that why it’s so easy to debunk these vaccine apologists because their weakness is indeed Science. The fact is they don’t know Science, they just pretend they know it. Of course, we know this guy is a farce. Isolation and vaccination are complete opposites. They know nothing about isolation because they are infection promoters.

Stop allowing others to convince your eggshell mind…

Stealing a metaphor from Jim Morrison. Ooohh, you’re such a hipster!

Pertussis and tetnus are prevelant in highly immunized people. Polio is caused by the vaccine.

And with those statements, you have completely blown what little credibility you came in here with. See the reply by Anton P. Nym.

They manufacture your consent and get rich in the process.

Wow, now you’re ripping off Noam Chomsky. How awesomely hip of you.

Pertussis and tetnus are prevelant in highly immunized people. Polio is caused by the vaccine. I urge you to “think for yourselves”.

And I urge you to eat a bag of salted dicks. “Tetnus” is “prevelant” among the immunized? The whole fucking antivax argument regarding tetanus is that it’s difficult to contract (along with weird assurances that a little hydrogen peroxide will take care of everything because, you know, C. tetani doesn’t like oxygen). Moreover, it’s not even particularly persuasive among that crowd, seemingly because of a perceived Holy Ghost-like impersonality to the business.

You’re completely doomed on TT producing your cherished “primary infection,” Th1Th2, and you’ve been dragged through the woods on it before. Perhaps that’s not fish you’re smelling, but rather an effect of failing to change your pants.

Haha. Duh. And what is tetanus? It is a toxin-mediated infection. And what is a toxoid? A toxin that has been weakened. And what is primary infection? It’s what you dumb infection promoters often refer to as “priming”.

Yes, vaccine apologists are always doomed when it comes to Science. There is just no escape.

Of course, they are always ready to counter with analogies. At least they will try. Haha.

What antivaxxers sometimes try to do is to compare unequal numbers of immunized and unimmunized people, and try to draw conclusions from the contextless absolute numbers.

But you know, Tony, this is the amazing part of the recent measles outbreak. Despite the fact that 95% of the population is vaccinated, 90% of those who caught the measles were not. In absolute numbers, it wasn’t even close, despite vaccinated outnumbering non-vaxed by almost 20 to 1. Almost everyone who caught the measles was unvaccinated.

But you know, Tony, this is the amazing part of the recent measles outbreak. Despite the fact that 95% of the population is vaccinated, 90% of those who caught the measles were not. In absolute numbers, it wasn’t even close, despite vaccinated outnumbering non-vaxed by almost 20 to 1. Almost everyone who caught the measles was unvaccinated.

That is as stupid as it gets. If 95% of the population is vaccinated, then that 95% have had primary measles infection by vaccines. Do they get reported? No, they don’t. That’s what Chris is so ignorant about. What is being reported are the unvaccinated who have had primary measles infection by natural measles infection. Well of course, what’s the chance of a second measles infection after primary infection (natural infection or vaccines)? Very little or none at all hence the 10%.

So what’s causing measles epidemic? The measles vaccine. So please put a leash on your little ones and don’t infect the naive.

Oh, wow, you are such an idiot, Thingy. You have even lost track of basic rhetorical sense. I’d ask you point out where I made statements that you claim promote certain ideas, but I know you just make stuff up as it suits your delusions.

Hey, mike, so you are just making it all up, or are you just cribbing from some Alex Jones, Mike Adams or some other clueless fool’s website? Perhaps good ol’ John Scudamore, the pig farmer whose bum was burned by a satanic ley line.

It’s nice to see you contradict yourself promptly for a change.

Haha. You can’t fool me Narad. The only thing you can do right now is to deny that tetanospasmin in the absence of Clostridium bacilli could cause tetanus let alone paralysis. Of course, you are a germ denialist. What else should I expect? Beer? That is so friggin’ ridiculous. They simply refuse to learn. Sigh.

Oh, wow, you are such an idiot, Thingy. You have even lost track of basic rhetorical sense. I’d ask you point out where I made statements that you claim promote certain ideas, but I know you just make stuff up as it suits your delusions.

Oh come on. Don’t you always tout the vaccine for causing the dramatic decline of measles incidence during the 1960’s huh Chris? So what wre being reported? Were they primary measles infection caused by natural infection? How about those who have had primary measles infection by vaccination? Where are the numbers? I guess this is the time that you brag about the numbers of how many people were inoculated. Show me the number and I will show you the real score.

I know you can’t because if you did you’ll just acknowledge that you’re indeed an infection promoter!

I know you can’t because if you did you’ll just acknowledge that you’re indeed an infection promoter!

Which Th1Th2-speak label, you know, absolutely nobody seems to give a shit about, given its being devoid of any practical upshot.

You might as well claim that beer is a “toxin-mediated infection.”

Don’t worry, she will.

Meanwhile, Chris is still busy looking for the definition of primary measles infection. What a bummer.

No, idiot Thingy. I know you can’t find the posts that state what you think I believe, because you pulled them out of your delusional nether regions.

No, idiot Thingy. I know you can’t find the posts that state what you think I believe, because you pulled them out of your delusional nether regions.

Are you flip-flopping now Chris?

h ttp://respectfulinsolence.com/2011/08/haunted_by_memories_of_the_consequences.php#comment-5024088

h ttp://respectfulinsolence.com/2011/03/gobsmacked_by_germ_theory_denialism_agai.php#comment-3490907

Again, you might as well assert that ingesting a beer constitutes fungal CNS infection with S. cerevisiae, geez duh I smell fish haha.

S. cerevisiae found in the CNS is an infection. Infection is a breach in the innate immunity by a known pathogen. Do you inject beer? Do you inject tetanospasmin? Do you the difference?

You’re really slipping, Casanova.

Haha. I don’t think so. You just can’t hide your covert germ denialism.

What does injection have to do with anything?

As a mean to initiate and promote infection. Of course, injection involves a break in the skin. Really deep.

All you have to do is state whether or not tetanus produced by administration of tetanospasmin sans presence of C. tetani in the “host” is an “infection” and, if so, with what.

I already did. Tetanospasmin ALONE, that is, in the absence of C. tetani, can cause tetanus and paralysis. Of course, it has to be injected (or a break in the skin like deep wounds) to cause tetanus and/or paralysis. Do you dispute this? Of course, the condition that arises from this process is called tetanus infection not a beer infection. Yeah you’re slipping.

I’d rather not waste my time with a botulism do-over.

Like tetanus, botulism is a toxin-mediated infection.

Not only did you not, you just didn’t do so again. Quit playing the eel and answer the question. It’s perfectly straightforward.

I did and in fact, it was a long time ago.

h ttp://respectfulinsolence.com/2011/03/another_pointless_anti-vaccine_protest.php#comment-3417761

Did you even bother to read the link? That was my answer and you’re just repeating the same crap. Of course, you are a germ denialist therefore your job is to deny.

Meanwhile, Chris is still undergoing an exhaustive research for just trying to find the definition of primary measles infection.

So are you a tetanus denialist now? That’s something I don’t hear everyday.

Stupid evasiveness is not more “powerful” than regular evasiveness, Th1Th2. Knock off the bitch-in-heat routine and just answer a simple two-part question.

Stupid evasiveness is not more “powerful” than regular evasiveness, Th1Th2. Knock off the bitch-in-heat routine and just answer a simple two-part question.,

My answer is “perfectly straightforward”. Tetanus is a toxin-mediated infection. Who would dare challenge this? Tetanospasmin is what causes tetanus, not the Clostridium bacilli nor its mere presence. You deny this.

Ergo, you’re a germ denialist.

No, I was the one who mentioned it in the first place.

Liar. You refuted it. Check #116.

So, tetanospasmin is a infectious germ? One can be “infected” by the toxin alone? We’re clear, yes?

Tetanospamin is what makes the Germ infectious causing paralysis. Since you deny the fact that tetanospasmin ALONE could cause tetanus therefore you are a germ-denialist. Of course, it has to be injected into the host to promote infection. And you deny this.

I don’t deny this, you willful shithead. That’s why I posed the question. Now, if we could get to the subpart, if one receives tetanospasmin in the absence of C. tetani, with what has one been “infected”?

Tetanospasmin and the infectious disease is called tetanus. The presence of the bacteria ALONE without the neurotoxin cannot cause tetanus. And you clearly deny this.

This I do, but it’s unimportant.

Haha. Are you being facetious? You’re like saying that C. tetani and/or tetanospasmin is not transmitted through punctured wound. Hello.

Answer. The. Fucking. Question.

You. Are. A. Germ. Denialist. Plain. And. Simple.

Even though you contradicted yourself by saying “I don’t deny this” Check #150. Now stop fooling yourself over and over again.

You. Are. A. Germ. Denialist. Plain. And. Simple.

I don’t give a fuck about your senile labels. I asked you this:

if one receives tetanospasmin in the absence of C. tetani, with what has one been “infected”?

It’s around this stage of these friendly debates with Th1Th2 that I start to feel decidedly uncomfortable. I’m reminded of my poor mad friend who believed his father had been killed by the CIA and replaced with a double who was spying on him. There was no arguing with him either…

BTW apparently there were 2 million cases of botulism of the face in the USA last year. Shocking.

That is intoxification, not toxin-mediated infection.

Haha. What have you been smoking? You’re just simply saying that tetanus infection is caused by intoxification with tetanospasmin. Duh.

Botox. Shocking.

Infection, or no?

Botulism infection. Is there anything else?

Botulism infection. Is there anything else?

So it’s settled, then. “Infection” is actually “mediated” by etymology. Thanks for all the fish.

You’re the one who accused me of claiming that something being produced inside a human was being put into that human from outside the human. This is clearly a contradiction, except in the rather fantastic scenario outlined above.

You seemed a bit shocked. It’s not even an accusation but rather a fact. This is the original platform in vaccine production since Jenner started infecting the naive. In the case of tetanus, this:

In 1889, Kitasato isolated the organism from an infected human, showed that it produced disease when injected into animals, and reported that the toxin could be neutralized by specific antibodies.

You are both a partaker and a promoter. Don’t complain.

Nah, it’s some form of original sin. Tetanospasmin == “tetanus” “infection.” The toxoid vaccine thus bears the taint. The source is irrelevant. The route is irrelevant. Parallel constructions that illustrate the problem are irrelevant. Your cat has rabies. Your mom has parvo, whatever. All that matters is names. Names that map 1:1 with vaccine targets.

No wonder Thingy is confused. He just outright claimed that tetanus vaccination involves injecting someone with C. tetani, collecting the tetanospasmin, and then re-injecting that same person with the collected tetanospasmin.

You’re an idiot. That’s not what I claimed. No wonder you’re breaking apart. Tetanus vaccination only involves the inoculation of tetanospasmin and that component alone causes tetanus. Read #118, 137 and the link at 139. The TT vaccine is a tetanospasmin vaccine.

And of course, routine tetanus inoculation is not an autologous vaccination if you know what that means. Why do you even bother posting nonsense when you know it would ricochet on you.

Tetanus vaccination only involves the inoculation of tetanospasmin

Oh, please define “of.” Are you rotting from the head down?

Tetanus vaccination only involves the inoculation of the host with tetanospasmin.

I appreciate your easy-going nature on this matter, sardine.

Actually, this is easy. There is evidence. And that evidence can be used against infection promoters. But you wouldn’t want that thing to happen so that you would outright deny the evidence hence your persistent germ denialism.

Is a tetanus vaccine an infection (produced within the person), an intoxification (produced outside the person), or both (produced within and outside the person)? So far, all the evidence you have provided is that it is simply an intoxification (at worst).

That’s just intoxification. You claimed that it was both intoxification (introduced from outside of the person) AND infection (produced within the person).

Nah you are so clueless. If something is being  “introduced from outside of the person” then that is called an exogenous infection such as vaccine-acquired infection whereas an endogenous infection is caused by an opportunistic pathogen from the host’s own normal microbiota. Intoxification refers to the capability of the pathogen to produce toxins that is whether the toxins are derived exogenously or endogenously.

The only way this could happen would be if the toxin were produced within the person, removed, and reintroduced. That’s not what happens in vaccination.

The toxin produced from “within” the infected person (endogenous) and then was removed can be used as a vaccine to infect other host (exogenous).  I don’t know why it’s so difficult for you to comprehend this process when this has been the original platform or method in vaccine production from morbillisation to variolation and up to present.  What happens in routine vaccination is an exogenous infection. The pathogenic materials in the vaccine are derived from other sources outside of the host. The host is then inoculated with it and re-exposed several times later based on the schedule. Isn’t it vaccination an artificially acquired active immunity?

Still ignoring ignorant lying uneducated unemployable delusional troll…who needs “terminal disinfection”.

The Thingy derives pleasure by derailing any and all discussions by “injecting” itself in. Thingy doesn’t care that it is constantly subjected to criticism because it is so delusional and so sick that it gets its “jollies” by ANY attention it receives. Why should we permit this…when the simple answer is to ignore all of its postings?

Why should we permit this…when the simple answer is to ignore all of its postings?

Howsabout you do this?

Kevin,

Haha. So you’re saying botulism is NOT an infection but a disease. Now how does that make you not a germ denialist?

If Thingy gets punched in the face by an angry clown, and the clown had been transported to Thingy’s location by car, does that mean Thingy was in a car accident? That actually makes about as much sense as calling food-borne botulism an infection simply because an infectious agent was involved somehow.

Per the CDC:

Botulism is a rare but serious paralytic illness caused by a nerve toxin that is produced by the bacterium Clostridium botulinum and sometimes by strains of Clostridium butyricum and Clostridium baratii. There are five main kinds of botulism. Foodborne botulism is caused by eating foods that contain the botulinum toxin. Wound botulism is caused by toxin produced from a wound infected with Clostridium botulinum. Infant botulism is caused by consuming the spores of the botulinum bacteria, which then grow in the intestines and release toxin. Adult intestinal toxemia (adult intestinal colonization) botulism is a very rare kind of botulism that occurs among adults by the same route as infant botulism. Lastly, iatrogenic botulism can occur from accidental overdose of botulinum toxin. All forms of botulism can be fatal and are considered medical emergencies. Foodborne botulism is a public health emergency because many people can be poisoned by eating a contaminated food.

In the case of foodborne and iatrogenic botulism, the illness is caused by the botulinum toxin and not by bacterial infection.

Actually, that a professor of bacteriology saying that.

That’s great.

Food-borne botulism* (as described in the textbook) is a disease, but not an infectious disease. Therefor, an infection is not required, and I am not in denial of the Germ Theory of Infectious Disease.

Please clarify. You said “an infection is not required”, infection of what?

Let’s see if you really are a germ denialist.

Th1Th2: Clostridium botulinum bacteria, of course. And your claim that the parts and products of a germ are as infectious because the whole is infectious is not science, it is mysticism.

The toxin. The bacteria simply creates the toxin.

The bacteria simply creates the toxin.

And if one happened to be able to produce the toxin purely synthetically, “infection of what”?

That choice of quote was misleading, sorry. The question was directed at Th1Th2.

Botulinum toxin causing botulism. Again, is there anything else?

Great. So orally ingested toxins are infections.

If these toxins are derived from disease-causing microorganisms aka pathogens, yes it is an infection.

Define “derived from” just to be clear, if you would.

From whatever part or product of the pathogen that determines its virulence or infectivity.

That’s not what I asked. Does a purely synthetic toxin that also happens to be produced by a pathogen (and for which said pathogen is generally known) have the same epistemological status?

In short, are you saying Botox cannot cause botulism?

I think there is only one person who can’t see exactly where this is going.

Define “same epistemological status” considering you’re comparing infection between natural and artificial source.

OK, so both purely synthetic and pathogenically manufactured toxins would represent “infections” then, right?

Super. Now, you agree that not all toxins represent infections, yes?

Only those toxins derived from pathogens including toxins prepared synthetically. Both toxins are derived from the same parental pathogen.

OK, so suppose one has a supply of some toxin that is of nonpathogenic origin. If one could engineer a pathogen that would produce this compound, would exposure to the previously existing toxin now constitute an infection?

OK, so suppose one has a supply of some toxin that is of nonpathogenic origin. If one could engineer a pathogen that would produce this compound, would exposure to the previously existing toxin now constitute an infection?

The result will be the same: a nonpathogenic toxin.

I did. It’s nonpathogenic so what else are you going to expect from a toxin that does not cause infection or disease?

Of course….

Enter the Infection Promoters. So how do you make one infectious?

It has to be pathogenic that’s the reason you have vaccines.

Thingy, is lead poisoning a disease?

Go back #214. It thought that was clear enough. No, the resultant toxin will remain nonpathogenic.

This still isn’t an answer to the question, but it’s in the ballpark. So, a toxin produced by a pathogen would not represent an “infection” if it were known prior to and independently of the pathogen, because of “parentage”?

[citation needed]

Everything.

Mike,
If you truly believe there are “strong people” who have immune systems that “makes things like measles, mumps, and pertussis seem like a mild sore throat or a sniffle”, you doubtless have some form of evidence that this is true. Please share.

This is what “[citation needed]” means in this case.

[citation needed]

mike and Tiredofthis, you have both made statements that you have not supported with any kind of real scientific evidence. If you want us to believe what you said, instead of thinking you just pulled them out of thin air, then you must provide real scientific documentation to support your statements.

Especially with the contentions that “Tiredofthis” made with vaccines causing more children to be mentally challenged. This is not supported by any kind of real evidence, especially since some of the main causes of neurological impacts on children include measles, Congenital Rubella Syndrom, Hib and other diseases that can cause meningitis, encephalitis and seizures (like mumps, rotavirus, etc).

This is an example of a citation, you can find the papers by using the search box at http://www.pubmed.gov:

Impact of specific medical interventions on reducing the prevalence of mental retardation.
Brosco JP, Mattingly M, Sanders LM.
Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2006 Mar;160(3):302-9. Review.

Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.
Ray P, Hayward J, Michelson D, Lewis E, Schwalbe J, Black S, Shinefield H, Marcy M, Huff K, Ward J, Mullooly J, Chen R, Davis R; Vaccine Safety Datalink Group.
Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.

You are aware that higher rates of cancer generally correlate with longer lifespans, don’t you?

mike, Tiredofthis and R.C.M, why do you think posting stuff without evidence is going to convince us?

R.C.M, are you a sock puppet of the other two guys? And did you miss us asking for citations from them?

Why should we believe any of you?

If you still are able to think at all, try to remember how many mentally challenged kids attended your school.

First, your personal memory isn’t a good gauge of the existence or non-existence of “mentally challenged kids” (whatever you mean by that; certainly lumping ASDs into that category is rather misguided) during your educational career. Second, it’s very likely that you won’t remember “mentally challenged” peers, depending on when you attended school, since only 20% of students with disabilities were educated in public schools before the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA). It was also in the wake of IDEA that the idea of mainstreaming or full inclusion (putting students in the “least restrictive environment”) became the standard for dealing with special needs students, which means that they are more visible now that they are being educated in public schools. As an educator, I consider that a good thing, and it doesn’t at all imply a higher prevalence of special needs or disabilities in and of itself.

to those who’ve done their research, we KNOW about the mercury in the flu vaccines and many others. We KNOW the direct result of mercury is the lowering of brain waves and function. We KNOW that, to put it simply, dumbs people down.

You do research? I’m impressed. Which journals do you publish in? Perhaps I have seen your papers.

Tiredofthis,

If you still are able to think at all, try to remember how many mentally challenged kids attended your school.

There were only a couple at my school, but I also volunteered at a hospital for what were then described as the “mentally handicapped”. There were hundreds of mentally challenged kids and adults at that hospital, and they were always grateful for someone to play with them or talk to them. Most people were completely unaware of them, and it was only because of one particularly virtuous youth worker that I even knew they existed.

I checked recently and the hospital has now closed. Where do you think all those children and adults, and all those that have been born since, are now?

I have access to a number of conventional & alternative health sites, & also through my own historical review of data, my overall opinion is that vaccines do far more harm than good, that their efficacy is questionable & that there is most definitely a corporate agenda in forcing people to be injected with them despite known risks. However, sites such as this one would have turned me against vaccines before I had even taken a look at the real facts & figures, because the whole tone of this site is so nasty, vicious and conceited that it shows itself up as having no interest in the truth or genuine debate about the evidence, but only in insulting people who hold a different opinion. Someone above writes “What an arrogant prick” & I guess that just about sums up the worth of this blogger. I feel confident he is paid by the pharmaceutical industry, through his blog, to poo poo any opposing ideas, but by gosh, he sure has gone over the top – nasty little person. I assume he has no friends in the real world, hence his desire to spit vitriole on anyone with a different point of view courtesy of his little hate kingdom on the web. I accidentally came across this in a search, and will be certain I never open anything with his name on it again.

Kaye,
I see your message as good evidence of confirmation bias. You disagree with Orac’s comments, you apparently can’t make a good fact-based argument against them, so you decide that they’re nasty, vicious, and conceited. One sees this a lot in political discussions, where people unable to make a good case against a position decide the proponents are callous, uncaring, dithering, evil, or communist depending on the context.

Go to the top of this page, and check what is on the left hand side. Find the words that say “Who (or what) is Orac?”, and then click on the blue letters.

Actually, I thought it was relevant that this person was claiming there was no information, but missed the rather obvious “Who (or what) is Orac?”.

C’est la vie.

I think it’s funny that Orac says he’s been at this anti-anti vax thing for a while now…5 whole years! Wow, he really must know it all. All of the doctors that he criticizes have been studying the topic a lot longer than him. This whole blog, including most of the comments I skimmed, appears very ignorant and does not at all have a tone of actually caring for people (such as not hearing a comment b/c there is no citation or just being downright rude b/c someone doesn’t have perfect grammar).