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Don’t listen to these “medical voices,” or: How did I miss this loony antivaccine site before?

Let’s face it, I’ve been at this “anti-antii-vax” thing for quite a while now. This December, this blog will have been in existence for five years. Even before that cold, gray Saturday afternoon nearly five years ago when, on a whim, I started up a blog on Blogspot that became the first incarnation of Respectful Insolence, I had been a regular presence on the Usenet newsgroup misc.health.alternative for at least three years before that. There, besides quackery, I got my first taste of the lies of the anti-vaccine movement from the likes of denizens of the newsgroup like Jan Drew and Ilena Rosenthal, who’s best known for her silicone breast implant conspiracy theories but by the principles of crank magnetism is also an anti-vaccinationist, to name a couple.

I’m not mentioning this to show what an old fart I am, blogospherically speaking, but rather to say that I’ve been around a while. I thought I had knew about pretty much every major anti-vaccine website and blog out there, and my connections usually let me know about new ones very rapidly. So it was to my surprise to see that there’s a slick new anti-vaccine website in town, and that it’s been around at least a month now. Worse, it’s a website that’s using the authority of physicians to try to persuade the public that it’s not a load of pseudoscience. Echoing the infamous website of the granddaddy of modern anti-vaccine groups, the National Vaccine Information Center (which I’ve blogged about before, natch!), this website is known as the Medical Voices Vaccine Information Center.

If there’s one thing I can say about it, it’s run, don’t walk, away from these doctors.

But who are the doctors who are responsible for this happy haven of anti-vaccine pseudoscience and quackery? I’ll get to that in a minute, along with a discussion of just how bad this site is. But, first, let’s see what it’s all about:

About
Medical Voices Vaccine Information Center brings awareness of vaccine issues to the forefront via medical doctors. Newly under development as of July 2009, the site will quickly become a massive library of articles, videos and presentations by doctors speaking out on the dangers of vaccines. The aim is to be an educational site for doctors who are beginning to question and become aware of the problems caused by vaccines and, additionally, a go-to resource for the public at large.

Vision Statement
Medical Voices Vaccine Information Center will become the most comprehensive educational center on the Internet for physicians seeking the truth about vaccines. This will change healthcare as we know it.

Mission Statement
Medical Voices Vaccine Information Center will provide educational tools through media including articles, videos, podcasts and webinars to everyone seeking the truth about vaccines.

Ugh. It figures. They’d have to have the “vision thing” down, wouldn’t they? Too bad it’s a vision of resurgent infectious diseases, suffering, and death. I do like the the antivax-speak, though. “beginning to question and become aware of the problems caused by vaccines” is code for “turning into an anti-vaccine loon,” and this website is there to help you along that path if you’re so inclined–with the authority of doctors, yet. Of course, to such people, the “truth” about vaccines is anything but, and it’s really sad to see physicians promoting misinformation and anti-vaccine canards. Indeed, I find this far more disturbing than even seeing Dr. Michael Egnor butcher biology and evolution. While Dr. Egnor only endangers the brains of those who listen to them, these physicians endanger public health by discouraging vaccination, a profound betrayal of their Hippocratic Oath.

So who’s behind this propaganda site? Let’s take a look:

Board of Directors
Sherri Tenpenny, DO
Mayer Eisenstein, MD, JD, MPH

Board of Advisors
Harold Buttram, MD
Professor Leo Rebello, ND, MD, PhD, DSc., F.F.Hom., DHS, MBA

President
Nick Haas

In case you don’t know who these “luminaries” are, Sherri Tenpenny is an infamous anti-vaccine activist whose website, book (Saying No To Vaccines), book blog, and blog are chock full of vaccine pseudoscience. Heck, she even has her own page on Whale.to and has appeared on über-crank Alex Jones’ show (he of Prison Planet) to lay down some fine conspiracy mongering about the swine flu. Yes, if I were looking for reliable information about vaccines, Dr. Tenpenny is someone I’d go to…not.

Then there’s Mayer Eisenstein. We’ve encountered Dr. Eisenstein multiple times before, first making data-free claims about how there is virtually no autism among the unvaccinated children in his crunchy Homefirst practice, a story that later morphed into a claim for actual data. Despite that, he never published. Most recently, Dr. Eisenstein has fallen for the quackery of Mark and David Geier, in which the powerful anti-sex hormone drug Lupron is being touted as a treatment for autism and been written up in the Chicago Tribune for the incompetence of physicians in his practice.

Harold Buttram is a particularly despicable anti-vaccine loon. A member of the wingnut organization Association of American Physicians and Scientists (which publishes JPANDS), Dr. Buttram is known for claiming that the shaken baby syndrome is in reality due to vaccine injury and not physical trauma. He has published articles in JPANDS and elswhere arguing just that. Indeed, what makes him most contemptible to me is that he lent his idea to the effort to get baby killer Alan Yurko off for his crime. Not surprisingly, Dr. Buttram also has his own page on Whale.to.

As for Professor Leo Rebello, ND, MD, PhD, DSc., F.F.Hom., DHS, MBA, I really don’t know much about him other than that he really, really needs to realize that putting that many initials after his name does not impress, particularly given that a doctor of Naturopathy and what looks like a degree in homeopathy are not exactly the best way to build credibility as a science-based source. Indeed, his website is full of anti-vaccine pseudoscience, complete with this picture:

i-2a54cd4740cae4ecb3b7c84feee1efa7-vaccineinjection.jpg

And this rant:

The lethal brew called the vaccinations made from disease cells and so many obnoxious ingredients do not build up immunity. Rather these vaccines are introduced to create more diseases. As I have said in my new doctor’s oath, vaccinations are worse than rape. It is heinous and those who have made vaccination mandatory, like in USA and in the EU countries, are the mass murderers. Hitler pales into insignificance when it comes to genocide of small children due to vaccinations.

Vaccines are “worse than rape”? Vaccines are “genocide” that makes Hitler’s crimes “pale into significance”? Nice to see the MVVIC has two such voices of reason as Drs. Buttram and Rebello, isn’t it?

Not surprisingly, the cadre of physicians the antivaccine zealots behind the MVVIC have gotten to contribute articles and other material to the website are just as bad. For example, there’s Joe Mercola dutifully repeating the now utterly discredited claim that mercury in vaccines causes autism and the same old misinformation about the HPV vaccine that I’ve blogged about before. Then there’s surgeon and antivaccinationist Russel Blaylock, who is known for articles claiming that vaccines don’t stop disease and that they cause autism, Gulf War Syndrome, Alzheimer’s disease, and Parkinson’s disease, chimes in with a piece from his usual oeuvre, this time engaging in a little fear mongering about the swine flu vaccine. Finally, our old friend, Dr. Rashid Buttar, the man who’s been sanctioned by the North Carolina State Medical Board (which he called a “rabid dog“) for treating cancer patients with ineffective remedies and children with autism with a wide variety of woo. including urine injections, makes an appearance with a number of videos.

Wow. That’s some lineup, don’t you think? It’s a veritable “all-star” team of anti-vaccine pseudoscience.

If any of the creators of the MVVIC were to see this, no doubt they’d accuse me of doing nothing more than flinging ad hominems. They might have a point if it weren’t for the fact that everything I’ve written goes right to the credibility of the source, specifically the NVIC. Besides, there doesn’t appear to be anything on the MVVIC about which I haven’t written science- and evidence-based analyses before, sometimes in nauseating detail. It’s all pretty much the same sort of anti-vaccine propaganda that I’ve dealt with time and time again over the last four years. Even so, the MVVIC is such a–shall we say?–target-rich environment that I think I’ll bookmark the page and keep an eye on the new material that will be showing up there in case I’m ever short of blogging material. I’ll probably end up thinking of the MVVIC as a new NaturalNews.com, only about vaccines. In other words, it looks as though it will evolve into an endless supply of antivaccine pseudoscience and paranoia, a place where I can always go whenever I need blogging material and be assured of finding some bit of pseudoscience to skewer gleefully with science.

Heck, I may even register for the private “physician area.” I’m guessing that’s where the real craziness resides.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

258 replies on “Don’t listen to these “medical voices,” or: How did I miss this loony antivaccine site before?”

So medical quackery provides further proof that when you go out far enough at each end of the old left-right spectrum you meet round the back somewhere…

…and it’s not a nice place!

So, anyone who disagrees with Orac is anti-vaccine/anti-science. As if David is the only voice of reason in the Medical/scientific community.

What an arrogant, conceited little prick you are, David. You are absolutely repulsive.

So, it’s a new website, by old anti-vaccinationists. Seems more like they are circling the drain to me.

re #3

I’ll take strawman for 200 Alex. Bonus! Today’s daily double…what is an ad hominem…

Given that the JABS forum in the UK has quietened down to the level of just reposting loony stuff from naturalnews and mercola, I ought to take a look at this… Hey – in some quarters, having your own page on Whale.To is considered a badge of honour!

http://www.whale.to/a/jabs1.html

John “Pigfucker” Scudamore finds me so annoying he gave me my own page. Maybe he fancies me. 😉

Being briefly serious… I see a lot of new anti-vax sites and forums kick off – very few of them ever get more than a few posts before they descend into obscurity. John Stone and Clifford Miller’s “ChildHealthSafety” blog for one, and various others.

All it takes is a few posts pointing out some facts and science, and either the contibutors shut up, or the site owners introduce moderation, and then realise that it’s a harder job than they thought.

You have to have a grudging respect for the people who run sites like JABS, AOA etc, in that they’re prepared to put the hard work in to filter and moderate their sites in the face of all the evidence – and still keep talking shit.

I wouldn’t worry too much about this site – but if it offers coomments – keep making those comments.

Kind regards,

Becky

Admittedly, I don’t spend a lot of time at these sites. I tend to spend my time with my non-vaccine damaged autistic child. But, is it a usual theme to claim that vaccines don’t prevent disease? That just seems ridiculous. Not that all of it isn’t ridiculous but….

For more anti-vax lunacy(of the H1N1 variety):see Adams’ NaturalNews(8/13),where he makes “educated”(sic) guesses about best case/worst case scenarios for the upcoming flu season.Seriously,you can’t make stuff like this up – although Adams *does*!

Not many feedback options at the site… I looked it over and found no place to leave comments… I voted down all their videos though, and you should do the same (they all only have one or two votes so far).

It is a scary, polished web site… lots of folks with lab coats…

“The lethal brew called the vaccinations made from disease cells and so many obnoxious ingredients do not build up immunity. Rather these vaccines are introduced to create more diseases. As I have said in my new doctor’s oath, vaccinations are worse than rape. It is heinous and those who have made vaccination mandatory, like in USA and in the EU countries, are the mass murderers. Hitler pales into insignificance when it comes to genocide of small children due to vaccinations.”

That truly makes me ill. It scares me, the lengths people will go to spread untruths.

@Leanne

But, is it a usual theme to claim that vaccines don’t prevent disease?

At least one person usually brings it up in a thread. The anti-vax camp likes to point to disease rates from the CDC that were “on a downward trend” before vaccines, yet they fail to mention that once vaccines were introduced, the rates dropped dramatically, far more than the “natural” trend they point to (which was only looking at a few years to begin with).

There are quite a few who go so far as to deny the germ theory of disease, saying that the bacteria and viruses don’t actually do any harm.

So, anyone who disagrees with Orac is anti-vaccine/anti-science. As if David is the only voice of reason in the Medical/scientific community.

Actually, there are many voices of reason in the medical/scientific community and not-so-amazingly, come to the conclusion that vaccines are beneficial. This isn’t a philosophical debate; it’s a scientific one so mere disagreement is moot. There is science and then there is the spew that these anti-vax sites vomit out and call it science.

What an arrogant, conceited little prick you are, David. You are absolutely repulsive.

And that’s what you call rebuttal? No wonder ‘your side’ will never pull yourselves out of the ignorant abyss that you are stuck in.

The anti-vax camp likes to point to disease rates from the CDC that were “on a downward trend” before vaccines, yet they fail to mention that once vaccines were introduced, the rates dropped dramatically, far more than the “natural” trend they point to (which was only looking at a few years to begin with).

Well, their favorite tactic is to point out that mortality from a given disease was on the way down before the vaccine was introduced. In many cases (measles, for example), the actual incidence of disease did not change until the vaccine was introduced, at which point it dropped like a stone.

When faced with those facts, they retreat to idiotic defenses like “well, the disease was still around, but doctors refused to recognize it because the patients had been vaccinated.”

So, anyone who disagrees with Orac is anti-vaccine/anti-science.

No, anyone who spouts anti-scientific fear mongering nonsense about vaccines like the sort of material that is found on the MVVIC website is anti-science and anti-vaccine.

Idiots at #2 and #3 in the comments? They are definatly getting quicker, I wonder if they have some kind of detection system in place to pick up on anyone who dares disagree with them…

I just wrote about Dr. Tenpenny on my blog. She’s an osteopath, a medical tradition started by a civil war surgeon who literally thought the best way to cure a kid of whooping cough was to wring his neck and shake him vigorously.

Plus, Dr. Tenpenny sells homeopathic remedies on her site. I pointed out how stupidly hypocritical it is that she attacks the flu vaccine for having avian protein (its incubated in an egg) when her homeopathic flu remedy is made from the liver of a decapitated duck and other disgusting ingredients (not that it matters, sine it’s all diluted a million times).

It’s nice that MVVIC shot its attempt at credibility in the head right off, with vaccines said to be worse than rape and making Hitler pale into insignificance. That’s a whopping, toxin-laden dose of the crazy right there.

In case anyone is curious about Leo Rebello’s Revised Oath for doctors, it’s available in its complete glory here:

http://www.petitiononline.com/dlr28klr/petition.html

It includes the following:

“I shall not rape tiny tots with mercury laced innoculations or vaccinations, for they pollute the blood stream of small children leading to serious diseases like AIDS, Cancers, Autism, etc.;
I shall not prescribe lethal drugs, like anti-retrovirals, chemotherapy, or give ECT to my patients…”If I cannot treat a disease, I shall not say that AIDS, cancers, diabetes has no cure.
But will tell the patient to try other systems of medicine.”

But especially, seek out crank magnetism – it’s better than copper bracelets.

Unfortunately, Dr. Rebello violates his own preachings even before his oath is finished:

“I shall not frighten my patients with unnecessary comments, opinions or advice.”

Orac said: “As for Professor Leo Rebello, ND, MD, PhD, DSc., F.F.Hom., DHS, MBA, I really don’t know much about him other than that he really, really needs to realize that putting that many initials after his name does not impress”

Indeed, he doesn’t boast of being an FAAP, like our antivax master of Pediatricks*, Dr. Jay Gordon. Can’t get anywhere without an FAAP.

*This is the title of one section on Dr. Jay’s website, which as a whole should be given the name Stupid Pediatricks.

I love how the article on the swine flu by Russell Blaylock ends with “There are much safer ways to protect oneself from this flu virus, such as higher doses of vitamin D3, selective immune enhancement using supplements, and a good diet.”

Gee, I wonder whose website one is supposed to go to get their “immune enhancing supplements?” And yet Blaylock has the audacity to pull the pharma is evil and “in it for the money” shtick.

Well, their favorite tactic is to point out that mortality from a given disease was on the way down before the vaccine was introduced. In many cases (measles, for example), the actual incidence of disease did not change until the vaccine was introduced, at which point it dropped like a stone.

It’s more insidious than that even — they trot out the mortality charts, but don’t actually call it that. They say something vague like “the measles rate” and hope that nobody notices.

And yes, a large portion of the anti-vax movement actually believes that vaccines have had no effect on the incidence of disease. It truly boggles the mind…

how much longer will it be until there are enough unvaccinated kids that there will be a reasonable sample size to determine if the rates of autism changed for the unfortunate children? there has already been anecdotal evidence for resurgence of measles etc. what about autism?

(i feel icky just thinking about it.)

This fall we will see Swine Flu in the northern hemisphere, at full strength. Reports are that the young are suffering disproportionally, and are listed as priority recipients of the vaccine, when it is offered. I assume that the anti-vaxers will avoid this shot, and I suppose that their children will be suffering the flu more than others’.

I really hope that the rate of severe secondary infections is low for them.

I can’t imagine anyone trying to maintain a shred of respectability would go on Alex Jones’ show. Now, THAT is a high level of crazy…

Some commenters above mentioned frequent themes of anti-vaxers today;here are a few quotes from a 1960 compilation of (earlier) articles in Prevention Magazine(“The Prevention Method for Better Health” by J.I.Rodale & Staff,Rodale Press,1960):1.”Vaccination is a present day evil:we believe that a time will come when we will be so healthy that vaccination will be unnecessary”.2.”There is pretty good general acceptance at present that smallpox results from unhygienic conditions”,3.”They cite cases of serious upsets suffered by vaccinated babies and even some deaths attributed to artificial immunization”, and 4.”Just as outward sanitation has rid us of some of the basic causes of diphtheria so internal cleanliness will surely take care of the rest of the problem.” It’s *deja wu* all over again!

There are plenty of very good osteopathic doctors who don’t go in for woo (though a larger percentage than MDs) so please don’t paint them all with the same brush. I’ve never received anything but good evidence based treatment by the DO I see including every vaccination (small town, seen the same doctor since I was in diapers), if I didn’t I’d find another doctor no matter how long I’ve been his patient.

Ugh, Seed is still having problems with woo ads showing up. Out of the three google ads at the top of this page, one is for “5 Worst Vaccines Exposed” (www.douglassreport.com) and one is for a homeopathic web site (www.masharosen.com).

@The Hypocrisy! It Burns!!

So, anyone who disagrees with Orac is anti-vaccine…

No, what makes them anti-vaccine is:

* The claim that vaccines are “unnecessary” (Just from the title of their article Vaccines : Untested, Unsafe and Unnecessary)

* More claims that vaccines don’t work.

* The repetition of the lie that the Amish neither vaccinate nor get autism (from Pretty Big Secret)

* The claim that vaccines are “worse than rape”.

If that doesn’t qualify them as anti-vaccine, what would?

Hi, vaccines are garbage being sold to you for a profit. There’s a remedy for that: buy MY garbage which is of course being sold to you at a profit.

Talk about white hot irony.

I’ll give the anti-vax nuts just a little bit of credit here: they’ve finally managed a web page that doesn’t look as if were created by high school drop out with ten seconds of training. Too bad all the nice packaging can’t disguise the ugly dreck inside the box.

Re Post #26 and osteopathy…probably not news to most posters here, but I only recently discovered that there’s “Osteopathy,” and then there’s “Osteopathic Medicine.” The latter is more-or-less mainstream. The former is undilute woo. Cranial plate manipulation? Ewww!

Why does it not surprise me that a website of “Doctors against vaccines” is just the same old characters we’ve seen before?

I’ve pointed this out before. When it comes to anti-vaxxers, it’s the same people who keep showing up again and again. If the local media wants to get the mainstream view, they can call any of their local pediatricians. However, to get someone anti-vax, there’s a pretty short list that they all use. The “anti-vax celebrity list,” as it were (as opposed to the “celebrity anti-vax list” where sits Jenny McCarthy).

It makes you wonder. Even someone like Jay Gordon gets a lot more media attention through his connections with Jenny McCarthy and by being an anti-vax FAAP than he did by taking a healthy but safe position of breastfeeding advocacy.

As I said before, you get a lot bigger spotlight by being the radical maverick fighting the establishment.

Dear zealots of the truth!!!!

What you guys say about:

– baxter sending 72 kilos of the avian flu virus instead of vaccine to several other countries in europe.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/02/27/8560781.html

– Militar laboratory had 9.200 dangerous virus/bacterias not catalogued.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/17/AR2009061703271.html

Of course, this you don’t mention as you can’t deny, even the manipulated media is showing it.

Emerson blethers:
“- baxter sending 72 kilos of the avian flu virus instead of vaccine to several other countries in europe.”

Wrong. It was a culture of seasonal flu virus (H3N2) that was contaminated with bird flu virus (H1N1). This was detected and dealt with before any problems occurred. No vaccine involved. BTW, no weight is mentioned in the article.

“- Militar laboratory had 9.200 dangerous virus/bacterias not catalogued.”

A minor proportion of samples stored were uncatalogued. This has been detected and is being dealt with before any major problems have occurred (apart from possibly the anthrax letters). We don’t know yet how many of these samples are “dangerous”. And this has exactly what to do with vaccines?

“Of course, this you don’t mention as you can’t deny, even the manipulated media is showing it.”

Or, more likely, the fact that it is completely off the topic of discussion just might have something to do with it.

Whoops!
H5N1 is the bird flu virus that contaminated Baxter’s culture samples. My bad.

@Stacy:

Hi, vaccines are garbage being sold to you for a profit. There’s a remedy for that: buy MY garbage which is of course being sold to you at a profit.

Hey, hey! That’s all natural garbage, leading to all-natural profits, so off course it’s better!!

Hey, hey! That’s all natural garbage, leading to all-natural profits, so off course it’s better!!

As I have described so clearly in my book and on my CD. Only $19.95 each plus S&H. Buy them both and pay only once for the H.

Good ol’ Jock Doubleday and his scam challenge. Read more about it here:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=322

And I will now repeat my comment the conditions that shows he has no intention of paying up:

To illustrate that Doubleday has no intention of even attempting allow anyone to take the challenge, read one of the links in LeftbrainRightbrain. That link is the contract which has all sorts of bizarre requirements:
http://www.spontaneouscreation.org/SC/ContractPartA.htm (for some reason this link no longer occurs in the offer letter, using the Wayback machine I found it disappeared late 2007).

Begin quote
A. Psychiatric Evaluations

Participant agrees to undergo psychiatric evaluations ….

B. Mental Health Records

Participant agrees to submit, within 45 (forty-five) days of Participant’s signing of the Agreement, documents comprising a verifiable written history of all psychological counseling and therapy …

C. Email Examination

Participant agrees to take a written open-book examination (the “Basic Exam”) before becoming eligible to receive Part B of the Agreement….

D. Book Purchase

To assure Participant’s complete and thorough familiarity with and understanding of possible immediate and long-term physical and psychological hazards of chemicals commonly used as disinfectant, preservative, medium, or other additives in vaccines, as well as possible immediate and long-term behavioral changes that may occur from ingestion of or contact with these chemicals, Participant agrees to obtain at Participant’s cost the following recently published books (the “Books”):…

E. Written Examination

Participant agrees to take a written closed-book examination …

F. Good Health Certification

To certify that Participant is in normal health (”Good Health”) (so that, upon Participant’s possible sickness or death after the ingestion of the Mixture, Participant and/or agents of Participant cannot reasonably claim that sickness or death was due to causes other than the ingestion of the Mixture), Participant agrees to a general physical exam including a blood test (the “Physical Exam”), at Participant’s expense,…

Securing of Medical Professionals:

Participant agrees to secure three medical professionals …

Television Appearances:

Participant agrees to make at least five regional or national television appearances …

Participant Donations:

In the event that Participant signs Part A of the Agreement but fails to sign the Agreement-in-Full within 120 (one hundred and twenty) days of the signing of Part A of the Agreement, Participant agrees to donate by check the amount of $5,000.00 (five thousand U.S. dollars),…

End quote

I popped over to see the Ilena Rosenthal website out of curiosity and learned that their ‘Breast Implant Survivors Day’ is 1 April. Oh the irony.

My wife has Lupus, and has had Rheumatoid Arthritis since about age 11. This Breast Implant = Connective Tissue diseases idea is common knowledge now. On many occasions people have assumed that she must have had implants in order to have Lupus. Some years ago I laughed in the face of one of her friends who I thought was making a joke. Her (nonexistent) implants have since become a running gag between us. Just one of the bad jokes to try to ease the effort of swallowing handfuls of pills everyday.

So it is possible to get rheumatoid arthrits without having implants? I didn’t think that was possible?

(kidding)

It just reminds me of those sad folks on mothering.com, for example, who weren’t aware that there were non-vaccinated kids with autism.

Hmmm, I wonder how they would ever get that idea?

To follow up my own comment, I should mention that, then again, these are the same folks who think that vaccination-proponents insist that vaccines are “totally safe” or some such nonsense. It’s a black and white world…

Apparently, not having done vaccinations themselves, they haven’t gotten the list of possible complications that can occur (which, not surprisingly, does not list autism), along with their frequencies (what? doctors admit that vaccines can cause problems?). It’s just so much easier to create the strawman.

Yeah I agree. It seems that the world now has two dimensions. The one who believes and support vaccines and the other side who don’t. More and more issues arise that really makes us all confused about which side we should believe in. I think we all need to know the truth about vaccination.

On many occasions people have assumed that she must have had implants in order to have Lupus.

What, they thought Lupus didn’t exist until there were breast implants? *shakes head*

Reminds me of something that happened right as the whole implants scare was taking off. My parents, sister, and I were watching the news and there was a story which was basically “X% of women with implants report symptoms like these.” My sister (a professional cellist with minimal science background, but knows a good bit about lupus because she has it) immediately noticed, “wait a second, X% is pretty close to the number of women estimated to have undiagnosed lupus – and those are lupus symptoms!”

So yeah, a complete laywoman was able to spot the problem immediately from a non-detailed news report.

Yeah I agree. It seems that the world now has two dimensions. The one who believes and support vaccines and the other side who don’t. More and more issues arise that really makes us all confused about which side we should believe in. I think we all need to know the truth about vaccination.

It’s not a matter of “belief” or “believing” in vaccinations. It’s a matter of what science supports (the safety and efficacy of vaccination for many diseases) and pseudoscientific paranoid conspiracy mongering, namely the anti-vaccine movement, as in groups like the NVIC, which does anything but “tell the truth” about vaccinations. In fact, the anti-vaccine movement spreads misinformation and lies about vaccines.

The one who believes … vaccines and the other side who don’t

I guess I don’t know what it means to “believe vaccines”? What is there to believe? Vaccinations prevent disease. This is empirically true, and as Orac notes, it’s not a matter of “belief.”

And no, it is not a “two dimensional world” for everyone. Orac mentions the “safety … of vaccinations,” but he is using it in the proper sense. “Safe” does NOT mean “never causes any harm in any way.” With that restriction, nothing is “safe” as anything can be a danger (I liken it to the SNL skit where Dan Akroyd plays the unscrupulous toys to kids, like “Bag of Glass” and “Johnny Switchblade Cammando Punk”; Jane Curtain says, “Isn’t this dangerous?” and he responds that everything is dangerous to a degree and demonstrates with a soft styrofoam ball which he shoves in his mouth and chokes on it).

However, when scientists say vaccines are safe, they aren’t talking about never causing any harm. That’s a black and white view, and they don’t have that. Moreover, the doctor gives you a list of the potential problems associated with vaccines, and an indication of the frequency with which they occur. It’s anything but a two dimensional view.

So in the end, they have to weigh the benefits and costs of using the vaccines. The CDC, for example, panels some of the top doctors in the field each year to assess the status (efficacy and safety) of vaccinations. They are not basing it on a black and white view. They see the gray very clearly.

No, it is the anti-vaxxers who project the “totally safe in every way” false dichotomy onto vaccine advocates and think that you can’t get autism if you aren’t vaccinated.

Just drink the Big Pharma Kool-Aid….. Medical Voices is legit….

An informative, substantive reply. Thank you greta gisen for rebutting all the concerns raised above with a simple allusion to Evil Big Pharma! You win the internet!

So, youre telling me that ethyl mercury is not toxic to cells. THIS is unfounded pseudoscience.
Dude, are you honestly unaware of mercurys toxicity to any living organism when injected.

Dylan, for comparison:

So, youre telling me that sodium chloride is not toxic to cells. THIS is unfounded pseudoscience.
Dude, are you honestly unaware of chlorine’s toxicity to any living organism when injected.

Can you see where your logic fails?

So Orac? Where is YOUR vaccine science proving vaccines are safe and effective; it sure appears that there is more than enough evidence that they are NOT! http://www.lowellsfacts.com

In fact you are a one last desperate act to prove any science exists at all within modern medicine. All for profit corrupted and bogus, top to bottom. All you can do is lie again and again and fail again and again to falsely discredit the sources. You along with the failed Steven Barrett. Why do you not learn the true history of modern medicine, and expound on that subject? Hell would not be hot enough for people like you!

Wow, the “Stephen Barrett Gambit”:

Invoking the spectre of alleged failure (and quackwatch.com founder) Stephen Barrett when discussing pseudoscience, in an attempt to discredit the person making the claim. I’m sure Timothy Bolen’s going to get quoted here any minute now.

Orec is an anti-real science weasel that either never knew or forgot what the scientific method really is. His mission in life is to bash and trash any and all information that actually benefits human health. He wants to keep people ignorant and believing the big pharma corrupt for profit selling you sickness… lies. The same poison that has caused this.

http://www.lowellsfacts.com/4th_Leading_-_Cause_.html
http://www.lowellsfacts.com/Pharma_Corruption.html

The science is supposed to be reproducible, and pharma is supposed to prove the actually benefits to the patient. Well, when you refuse do that…you end up with this!

http://www.tolerancelost.com

Don’t listen to the antivax conspiracy theorists, (Translations Truth Warriors); and end up like that! “Worth the risk”???

Where is your science that vaccines are safe and effective, that I asked about Orec? We can sure see that the CDC has no proof of that multiple vaccines, especially given on one day, are safe! Read it, it is about as bogus as claiming 36, ooo people die per year of flu; when that includes any and all respiratory flu like disease pathogens known to man, and that the flu vaccine does not even protect for, even if it could. It’s a flu vaccine magic act, Orec; spin with multiple end point numbers, from 30% efficacy into 60% efficiency, based on vaccine toxic ingredients produced antibodies, and never prove it equaled actual immunity in any of the population. Put some thimersol in it and inject it into children and pregnant women. Deny any and all harm. Produce a Pediatrics study that shows mercury improves the performance of school children. Then another one where later Poul Thorsen runs off with 2 million dollars, and the Danish study proven a faud, and which the federal vaccine court used that study as basis to deny benefits to the autistic. That sure was a good deal. Your information is lies top to bottom… Orec!

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/multiplevaccines.html

Yeah, Oreck (sic), you suck! That’s why you do such an excellent job vacuuming my carpets.

The public gets it. The chiropractors embrace it. The medical Doctors, including pediatric neurologists, are stunned by it. The pharmaceutical and organized medicine cartels – must deny it. The philosophy is “if they cannot deny the message, then they will discredit the messenger.” This is simply how the system works.

Andrew Moulden (Interview): What You Were Never Told About Vaccines.
http://uncensored.co.nz/2009/10/15/dr-andrew-moulden-interview-what-you-were-never-told-about-vaccines/

Why Medical Authorities Went to Such Extremes to Silence Dr. Andrew Wakefield. Video of Andrew Wakefield interviewed by Dr. Mercola. April 10 2010. How the corruption balls rolls!

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/04/10/wakefield-interview.aspx

A complete analysis of the main stream claimed to studies on vaccines and autism
http://www.putchildrenfirst.org/aboutus.html

Central Figure in CDC Vaccine Cover-Up Absconds With $2M. (Danish vaccine studies).
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/central-figure-in-cdc-vac_b_494303.html

Poul Thorsen’s Mutating Resume.
http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/03/poul-thorsens-mutating-resume.html

First Fraud: Dr. Poul Thorsen and the original “Danish Study”.
http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/03/first-fraud-dr-poul-thorsen-and-the-original-danish-study.html

NBC 11 Atlanta Reports: Vaccine Researcher Flees with $2M
http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/03/nbc-11-atlanta-reports-.html

Orec, show us that science you have showing that vaccines and multiple vaccines on the same day are safe and effective? What a bunch of garbage the CDC wrote up; some science that is! In your entire article all I read about was bashing the sources, and no real address of the information. WE need to get you some Gardasil, Menactra, and 3 other vaccines and give you those like many girls did; hope you don’t crash your car while having a seizure, like some of them did. You should be fine; all they have to do is watch you for 15 minutes. If you come back all messed up, it wasn’t the Gardasil, and your doctor will give you enough tests to bankrupt you parents, and never find a thing. “Oh, you have a new medical condition”!!!

http://www.cynthiajanak.com/20081202NewMedicalConditions.html

Gardasil Victim Speaks Out After 2 Years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gCVCP8BFrU

Don’t listen to the vaccine conspiracy theorists; they all have tin foil hats on, and will invade our modern medicine world and destroy our lies about the vaccine scared cow!
http://www.medalerts.org/

@wildman, Great Post! Until your mind can conceive the unthinkable…that we really don’t need vaccines, and that we have been ‘socialized’ to think we would die if we didn’t get all ‘our shots’! You really can’t ‘get it’. It took me 2 months of constant reading to actually come to terms with not vaccinating our first child.

Also, I have to re-read info often just to remind myself why my wife and I chose not to vaccinate. We live in a ‘Disease Economy’. One can watch movies like Food Inc. and without a doubt know that what they are saying is true–because you can verify the information much easier. Is it any wonder the vaccine industry would be any different.

The truth will set you free.

Amusingly, the site Orac is referring to in this post is now down. Anti-vax wingnuts come out of the closet.

Must be connected – after all, correlation == causation, right?

Dickheads.

My son is not Vaccinated because I researched information on Vaccinating and Not Vaccinating. The information I found clearly showed me that not vaccinating was the wisest decision I could make. This video is great, really helps you to understand the risks without vaccination
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdLMeULoujM

I then researched what I need to do to keep my child safe and ALIVE for as long as possible. Here is what I found:

-Car accidents is the LEADING cause of death in Children!

-In the United States during 2005, 1,335 children ages 14 years and younger died as occupants in motor vehicle crashes, and approximately 184,000 were injured. That’s an average of 4 deaths and 504 injuries each day.2

-Car Crash Stats: There were nearly 6,420,000 auto accidents in the United States in 2005. The financial cost of these crashes is more than 230 Billion dollars. 2.9 million people were injured and 42,636 people killed. About 115 people die every day in vehicle crashes in the United States — one death every 13 minutes.

-One out of four occupant deaths among children ages 0 to 14 years involved a drinking driver. More than two-thirds of these fatally injured children were riding with a drinking driver. In 2005 333 childeren died from a drunk driver.

This being said, I want you to look at your clock and reming your self someone just died in a car accident, then in 13 minutes tell yourself this again, and do it again and again and again and again even while you are sleeping.

Ok so here is what bothers me, the Govt knows these numbers yet you get a DUI for driving drunk? Around $1500 bucks, maybee lose your license for a year if you dont have a attorney, with a attorney you can get away with several DUI’s, as in 3 yes 3 amazing. They will allow someone 3 chances to kill innocent people, and children. How about the speeders in the sports cars doing 100 on the freeway missing me by inches? Yet they keep letting car manufacturers make cars that go over 200 mph? How about the 16 year old that just left the party with the monster truck with the tire taller than my car?

The point is the GOVT is twisted and always will be, so don’t think that they would not support vaccines if they were bad for your children, the numbers aren’t high enough for cause of concern for them, dont you see, side effects are ok. This is proven with all the commercials I watch on TV all day, the list of side effects are insane on drugs these days, one of the side effects even being DEATH? INSANE. Unless a large number of Infants and Children are dying on the spot from these vaccines, nothing will ever change, the side effects mean nothing to the GOVT. Money also goes a LONG LONG WAY with the GOVT! Remember to buy a safe car, Don’t put your kid in a tin can.

Chuck, please read the months old article you just commented on a bit more clearly. The person who made that video you linked to is mentioned:

In case you don’t know who these “luminaries” are, Sherri Tenpenny is an infamous anti-vaccine activist whose website, book (Saying No To Vaccines), book blog, and blog are chock full of vaccine pseudoscience. Heck, she even has her own page on Whale.to and has appeared on über-crank Alex Jones’ show (he of Prison Planet) to lay down some fine conspiracy mongering about the swine flu. Yes, if I were looking for reliable information about vaccines, Dr. Tenpenny is someone I’d go to…not.

If you don’t understand the reference to whale.to, see Scopie’s Law:

In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses you the argument immediately …and gets you laughed out of the room.

Plus more on Tenpenny!

Perhaps you can share your research with us on more recent threads.

Listen, anyone who questions vaccines is frowned upon by people like yourselves almost instantly. When I told my first childs ped. that I was still researching vaccines and not sure if I wanted to continue with them he became so angry and treated me like I was stupid. “What is there to research?” He said, “if they were not good for childeren the govt. would not allow us to give them.” “My own childeren were vaccinated and they are perfect.” Well, my grandfather smoked and drank his whole life and he lived to be 83 years old, does that mean that everyone can do the same? No! By the way alot of the information that Tenpenny quotes or uses as reference is from the CDC. Anyway anybody like Tenpenny that tries to make people aware of vaccines and the things that they may or may not cause or do is considered a “Quack” to most doctors or “Scientist.” What is Science? The word Experiment pops in my head. Anyway here is some more numbers that blows my mind.

•Around 5.4 million deaths a year are caused by tobacco.
* Smoking is set to kill 6.5 million people in 2015 and 8.3 million humans in 2030, with the biggest rise in low-and middle-income countries.

* Every 6.5 seconds a current or former smoker dies, according to the World Health Organization (WHO).

* An estimated 1.3 billion people are smokers worldwide

•Over 443,000 Americans (over 18 percent of all deaths) die because of smoking each year. Secondhand smoke kills about 50,000 of them.

•1.2 million people in China die because of smoking each year. That’s 2,000 people a day.

•Tobacco use will kill 1 billion people in the 21st century if current smoking trends continue.

•33 percent to 50 percent of all smokers are killed by their habit.
* Smokers die on average 15 years sooner than nonsmokers.

NOW LET ME ASK YOU THIS? THE GOVT. KNOWS THESE NUMBERS RIGHT? 50,000 PEOPLE A YEAR DIE FROM SECOND HAND SMOKE? IT WASNT ALL THAT LONG AGO THAT SECOND HAND SMOKE BECAME A CONCERN? WHY DID IT TAKE SO LONG FOR PEOPLE TO FIND OUT THAT SECOND HAND SMOKE WAS KILLING PEOPLE? I KONW THERE WAS SOME “QUACKS” OUT THERE TRYING TO MAKE PEOPLE AWARE BUT IT TOOK AAALLLLLOOONNNNGGGG TIME BEFORE IT WAS MADE OF CONCERN AND BELIEVED.

HERE IS WHAT THE GOVT IS MAKING OFF OF CIGARETTES AND WHY THEY ARE ALLOWED TODAY, INFACT EVEN THOUGH IT IS KNOW THAT SECOND HAND SMOKE IS A KILLER, THE LADY AT THE PARK CAN SMOKE AT THE TABLE RIGHT NEXT TO ME AND MY CHILDEREN? FOR YOU NON SMOKERS, I KNOW YOU KNOW HOW IRRITATING AND DISCUSTING THAT SMELL IS. THAT IS GOING STRAIGHT INTO YOUR LUNGS AND ALLOWED BY THE GOVT. AGAIN HERE IS WHAT THE TOBBACO(sp?) COMPANIES BRING TO THE GOVT EVERY YEAR. BILLIONS!!!

# Federal excise taxes – $7,307,440,000
# State and local excise taxes – $15,087,691,000
# State cigarette sales taxes – $4,764,730,000
# Tobacco settlement payments – $7,200,000,000

The govt does not protect you, it is up to you to protect yourself and your family. Do some research on what these vaccines are TRYING to prevent. People are so scared to not vaccinate because of what has been told to us about these diseases, how about chicken pox, I think everyone I know has had the chicken pox in my age group. It is a more recent vaccine 1995 I believe, give it another 15 years and people will think the worst of chicken pox because none of them were around to experience it and know that it is no big deal. My father had measles, and mumphs, and he is still here and healthy, my grandmother had both and is here and healthy. But now days since none of us hears of measles or mumphs anymore, we are scared to hear those words and think its the end of the world if our childeren were to get it. Anyway this is my thoughts to each their own, see I can accept people that want to get their childeren vaccinated, I dont frown upon them, but people who do not vaccinate are frowned upon? Weird huh? What do people care if my kid is not vaccinated, yours is so he cant catch anything my kid is carrying anyways right? Or does the vaccine become less effective over time? Maybee not effective at all? Well atleast the chicken pox vaccine kept you from getting chicken pox when you were younger, now that you are older your chances of dying from it are greater? HHmmmmmm….

Crank alert:

1) Posts on a months old article despite more relevant recent articles.

2) Liberal use of anecdotes (with strawman and false dichotomy argument on smoking).

3) Ignoring previous comments (“Perhaps you can share your research with us on more recent threads.”)

4) Lack of any real data.

5) Liberal use of ALL CAPS.

6) Inability to spell government (and for some reason thinks it is a single entity, and not made up of individual persons, many who are elected by those who actually vote, and a vast number of civil servants).

7) Missing the obvious reason that “now days since none of us hears of measles or mumphs anymore” is because of vaccines!

Chuck, go to a recent thread and present real evidence. Yeah, you know a bunch of people who survived measles and mumps, but that is because those one out of a thousand who died are very quiet. Death causes permanent silence.

Orac, please close this thread.

Listen, anyone who questions vaccines is frowned upon by people like yourselves almost instantly.

Anyone who honestly questions is, in general, educated rather than “frowned upon.” What we frown upon are those who do not question, but rather mindlessly accept whatever drivel is thrown at them. And the REAL scorn is saved for those who throw the drivel in the first place.

Was there some sort of relevance to the whole smoking tangent? I don’t see it, if so.

I think everyone I know has had the chicken pox in my age group. It is a more recent vaccine 1995 I believe, give it another 15 years and people will think the worst of chicken pox because none of them were around to experience it and know that it is no big deal.

I had chicken pox as well; it was more than nasty enough to want to avoid. And that’s even ignoring the shingles factor. What exactly is the objection to avoiding it?

My father had measles, and mumphs, and he is still here and healthy, my grandmother had both and is here and healthy. But now days since none of us hears of measles or mumphs anymore, we are scared to hear those words and think its the end of the world if our childeren were to get it.

And if they were among the MANY who had died, they’d no longer be around to be your father and grandmother. Effectively what you’re saying here is that they weren’t 100% lethal, therefore they’re not worth preventing?

Anyway this is my thoughts to each their own, see I can accept people that want to get their childeren vaccinated, I dont frown upon them, but people who do not vaccinate are frowned upon?

Given that they’re exposing their children, and others, to severe risks – far more severe than those of vaccination – it is quite simply the wrong decision not to vaccinate (barring a recognized medical contraindication). There is quite simply no way to honestly evaluate the whole of the evidence and come to any other conclusion.

What do people care if my kid is not vaccinated, yours is so he cant catch anything my kid is carrying anyways right?

Not 100% effective, and some people cannot be vaccinated for real medical reasons. Not to mention, some of us actually care if YOUR kid is killed or permanently injured by the vaccine-preventable diseases you’re unjustifiably not protecting him from.

Thread necromancer Chuck H. dazzles us all with a grandstanding display of crankery while digging this thread out of its grave for reanimation.

Some helpful advice, Chuck:

(1) Don’t use all-caps for entire paragraphs when discussing things with other people on the Internet if you wish to be taken seriously. Generally, the only sensible reaction to people who engage in this sort of behaviour is to dismiss them as cranks and ignore them.

(2) Car safety statistics and smoking mortality/morbidity statistics are not, strictly speaking, relevant to vaccine safety. We often use seatbelts as an analogy for vaccines (seatbelts involving some small risk to the user in certain circumstances while generally saving lives, like vaccines), but that is about as far as it goes.

(3) Conspiracy theories are extraordinary claims. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Using mortality/morbidity statistics as a premise and concluding that “the government” is conspiring to make money off the deaths of people is missing the key step where the actual evidence of government conspiracy is presented. If you have (a) evidence of government conspiracy on these two matters, and (b) a means to link these to a similar conspiracy on vaccines, you should present it. Otherwise your argument is one of assertion and is not to be taken seriously.

(4) A YouTube video is not a peer-reviewed article in a scientific publication. If you are going to make a claim regarding medical science (such as with regards to epidemiology or vaccines), particularly if it is a novel or unusual claim (such as, for example, vaccines are too dangerous for widespread use or that the diseases they are meant to prevent are mild enough that mass vaccination is not required), then you should back yourself up with peer-reviewed evidence, not YouTube videos. Even Wikipedia links to peer-reviewed evidence on their articles on disease, after all.

Well I knew what was coming, the same thing that comes to anyone who seems to not be in favor of Vaccination. Just because I used all CAPS my post discredited
“Don’t use all-caps for entire paragraphs when discussing things with other people on the Internet if you wish to be taken seriously. Generally, the only sensible reaction to people who engage in this sort of behaviour is to dismiss them as cranks and ignore them.”

Spelling errors discredits me as well?

Is this why Tenpenny is discredited? Some references to Whale.to? Did she use caps and spell some things incorrectly?

Do you believe O.J. Simpson was innocent? Was there not enough evidence? There is our GOVT. for you.

Listen, I cook good, awesome actually. I learned everything I know about cooking on the internet, youtube, google, and so on. I didnt go to culinary school, yet I cook better and know more about food than my wife whom went to culinary school? If me and my wife fill out an application or turn in a resume for a job in a 4 star restaurant, My wife will get hired before me, because of her degree. All these parents out there that have problems with their children that they are claiming were caused by the vaccines are not given credit or taken seriously by so many people because they are not Scientists, or dont have a TITLE. The problem is you dont have to be a scientist or have a TITLE other than PARENT to know when your childs problems started.

I dont think there is any conspiracy, there doesn’t have to be, the govt. does what it wants. Its very clear.

But I haven’t said my part: Chuck H., you’re not quite the epitome of the Dunning-Kruger effect, but you’re close.

But I haven’t said my part: Chuck H., you’re not quite the epitome of the Dunning-Kruger effect, but you’re close.

Chuck:

What does OJ Simpson have to do with vaccines? The verdict of his case was decided by legal protocols, not scientific evidence.

While parental intuition on children’s health is not an unreasonable guide some of the time, all intuition and other non-rational thought processes are prone to cognitive biases (search it on Wikipedia for a decent overview) and shortcuts which sometimes make it easy to come to incorrect conclusions.

A lot of the time, conclusions that vaccines have caused harm end up being cases of post hoc ergo propter hoc thinking. In particular, attempts to relate autism to vaccines have come up against formidable obstacles in terms of lack of supporting evidence from epidemiological studies, in addition to physiological issues (for example, frequent commenter here, daedalus2u points out that people on the ASD spectrum have a particular minicolumn structure in the brain compared to neurotypical people, and that this structure is formed in utero, suggesting there is little reason to expect autism disorders to be related to vaccines).

At any rate, for people who can show that their children have been subject to adverse reactions from vaccines, there is, in the US, a reasonable compensation programme in effect.

To reiterate my point: do you have something other than a YouTube video and a pointer to Whale.to – for preference, a reference to the peer-reviewed literature (which parents like you and musicians like me can learn to read and understand, after all) – to make your case? The problem with Whale.to is that it is a repository of pure, unadulterated crackpottery, such that it can usually be guaranteed to be wrong on almost any scientific subject.

So, maybe you feel offended about not being taken seriously when you use all-caps paragraphs, but as my other advice points and as the above indicates, there’s much more to it than that.

Shorter Chuck: “Wah, wah, wah! You are all meanies because you want actual data!”

(and dude, you would know why Tenpenny is a crackpot if you had clicked the link, the link being the stuff in blue text)

Why do you publish a blog post like this without a SINGLE piece of evidence towards the claim that vaccines are safe? It makes you sound like you’re just spewing propaganda for the drug companies. You can’t rant for several paragraphs about people being pseudoscientists without explaining why they’re wrong.

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