Matt Lauer to look at the vaccine-autism “debate”? Oh, goody.

I’m sick of the “Brave Maverick Doctor/Scientist” trope. Not just with the world of pseudojournalism, but in fiction as well.

“and they’ll turn way from the doctor… in the name of ‘balance’ and turn to some crack, witch-doctor, homeopath horseshit-peddler…”

“it’s entirely possible this will be the first time this subject matter (autism, Wakefield, Thoughtful House, vaccine safety research) has been considered objectively in mainstream media”

What’s he on about here? I can only assume that by “objectively” he really means “pro-Wakefield”, since he wouldn’t want actual objective coverage, but the mainstream media has been full of articles uncritically repeating his crap. Is that not enough for him?

@Harold:

Um, how exactly does Orac’s prediction here show he’s not devoted to rigorous science? Whether Orac’s predictions come true or not doesn’t really change the fact that Wakefield practiced some pretty low-quality science, and seems to have not come to terms with the fact that his hypotheses are complete bunk.

What’s he on about here? I can only assume that by “objectively” he really means “pro-Wakefield”, since he wouldn’t want actual objective coverage, but the mainstream media has been full of articles uncritically repeating his crap. Is that not enough for him?

Yeah, but that’s been mostly in the U.K.

As I said before, in the U.S., Wakefield is pretty much an unknown quantity outside of our small circle of “anti-anti-vaxers.” Certainly the public at large doesn’t know much, if anything, about him. Consequently, he has a more or less blank slate to work with here across the pond. Even if there is criticism, my guess is that he’ll come off, as I said before, as the “brave maverick doctor” with a “new idea” who may have cut a few corners and crossed a couple of ethical lines, but who may actually be on to something and who did it because he cares so very, very much about autistic children.

Again, I hope I’m wrong.

Besides, the U.S. is where Wakefield lives now, and I’m sure Thoughtful House will drum up a ton of business from the broadcast, which is likely the real reason he acquiesced to doing the story.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/261848…53507#27453507
That interview with Paul Offit that Tim Farley mentioned is in the above link.
I certainly hope Nancy Snyderman is involved in the next one.

Actually being fair to Wankerfield would involve locking him up for several million counts of reckless endangerment.

Jen, as an autistic adult, I am both very offended, and very sad for your child or children, that you consider their condition a sickness. I only hope you read some of the many criticisms of Thoughtful House, and stop putting your child or children through so much unpleasantness for no result. Autism is a genetic condition. It is not a disease, and cannot be cured. Your child needs therapy to help learn the skills they will not learn naturally. They do not need endoscopy, colonoscopy, chemical or dietary torture, and it will not “cure” them, because autism is not a gastrointestinal problem. You have been tragically misinformed.

“In the one-hour Dateline, Lauer speaks exclusively with Dr. Andrew Wakefield, whose 1998 medical study was the first in the world to suggest a possible link between the MMR vaccine and autism”

Gee, you’d think it would be somewhat pertinent to mention that the data in the “study” was fabricated. I can’t say I have very high hopes for this programme, although if they let Deer present the evidence against Wakefield without editing it into oblivion, then maybe it won’t be too bad

“They do not need endoscopy, colonoscopy, chemical or dietary torture, and it will not “cure” them, because autism is not a gastrointestinal problem. You have been tragically misinformed.”

Just out of curiosity, before I comment further, what sorts of conditions would warrant endoscopy in a child, in your opinion?

I guess we’ll have to keep out fingers crossed.
Why is it that some 11 years after Wakefield published his dishonest packet of crud he called a paper that he is still being seen as “The” expert on Autism and Autism spectrum disorders, when his work has been shown to be scientifically questionable at best, and outright fraud at worst ? Do people just not get it ? but then, I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised. People still buy into Gary Null and that other huckster who was pushing coral calcium.

DLC said:
“Why is it that some 11 years after Wakefield published his dishonest packet of crud he called a paper that he is still being seen as “The” expert on Autism and Autism spectrum disorders”
I don’t think he is.
As Orac mentioned Wakefield is well known in the UK (thank you very much Daily Mail- NOT) but not so much in the US.
I don’t live in the US so I will take Oracs word for that (the anti-vaccination stuff coming from the US very rarely mentions Wakefield, its usually the celeb crowd and that idiot Kennedy guy).
One thing that confuses me about the US situation is why there seems to be no trusted medical expert there who is nationally known and turned to by the media for advice on issues like this – someone like Robert Winston in the UK?

@Don Parker

Dr. Margaret Bauman (Mass. Gen’l Hosp., I think)

You are correct. She is the head of the LADDERS program at MGH.

@NJ…I think they were being sarcastic.

Actually, I like this. Perhaps keeping the anti-vax people away from the general populace hasn’t been a very good idea. The doctors and the “researchers” that are profiting off of the fake autism/vax link will suddenly get inundated with new patients. When the state health departments get wind of it, there may be a whole whopping lot of indictments with various charges, such as willful harm to a child or worse.

Or maybe they will continue to play Randian politics with childrens’ lives and let parents play doctor.

Lets hope the risk is worth it and the backlash so massive that Wakefield and all his posers are washed away.

Hi MI Dawn –

However, THEY ARE NOT SPECIFIC TO AUTISM!!!!! If a child is ill with gastric problems, then they need treatment. They don’t have mythological “measles” in the gut. They have allergies, IBS (which my own child has), or some other illness. Treat the illness.

It is not a coincidence that families travel thousands of miles to Thoughtfull House for treatment; for whatever reason, their children aren’t being helped locally. People are seeing Krigsman and Jepson precisely because no one else is willing to treat these illnesses. Jen would seem to be an excellent example of this, she claims that the vaccine angle bothered her, and yet, they still felt the need to travel widely for help.

No one says they shouldn’t. Any child who is in pain will act out. Make them feel better and they will behave better. This is NOT specific to autism. Then, once they are feeling better, work with the autistic child to learn and develope. For goodness’ sake, QUIT with the lying that only autistic children have gut problems, or that they are ANY different, except for developmentally, than other children.

I think you would be hard pressed to provide an example where Jen, myself, or anyone has made the claim that only children with autism have gut problems.

As towards your other claim, unfortunately, it is straightforward to provide evidence that children with autism are much, much different than other children in ways other than developmentally.

For example, children with autism have been shown to have much higher levels of MIF than children without autism, an immune messenger known to be associated with increased risks of a variety of inflammatory conditions.

Macrophage Migration Inhibitory Factor and Autism Spectrum Disorders

The same chemical, MIF, has been found to be associated with a diagnosis and clinical presentation of IBD.

Overview of the role of macrophage migration inhibitory factor (MIF) in inflammatory bowel disease

the past two decades, we have extensively studied MIF’s pathophysiological roles in human diseases, and have accumulated evidence elucidating its molecular mechanisms in the pathogenesis of immune disorders and inflammatory diseases, such as rheumatoid arthritis and inflammatory bowel diseases (IBD). In a study of IBD, we demonstrated for the first time that anti-MIF antibody suppressed the degree of dextran-sulfate sodium (DSS)-induced colitis, indicating its potential therapeutic use for IBD patients. Following that report, a number of researchers, including us, clarified that MIF was profoundly involved in various gastrointestinal disorders, such as hepatitis and pancreatitis.

We know that MIF promoter regions are associated with autism. Likewise, the Pediatrics paper showed increased MIF ciruclation, and correlations between MIF levels and autism severity across several measures. The evidence in favor of a relationship between MIF and inflammatory conditions, including gastrointestinal disorders is difficult to overcome. Unless we can conceive of some mechanism by which MIF does not exert this effect in the autism population only, why shouldn’t we be able to say that children with autism are different than other children in ways other than developmentally?

– pD

“That doesn’t mean you should shove an endoscope down all of them.”

Calli, you lose credibility when you make overly dramatic statements such as this. I can assure you that endoscopes are not “shoved” down every child that walks into Thoughtful House. There are many other ways that gut issues can be treated non-invasively, and all of them are exhausted before a consult to Dr. Krigsman is made.

Sigmund@23

I once encountered the US version of a documentary* that I’d previously seen on the BBC. The American channel (production company?) had felt it necessary to revise the narration and replace Robert Winston as narrator…

…with Alec Baldwin.

So, no, there probably isn’t anyone.

* I think it was Walking with Cavemen – but whatever it was, neither version was stellar.

I hope you are wrong; I like Matt Lauer, he is one of the only morning personalities on TV that I enjoy. He is sharp enough to play Wakefield and make him and the anti-vaccine movement look foolish. He also has a young child, and has a personal interest in being on the right side of the issue. If he stokes the ani-vaccine fires, however, I will sadly tune him out.

Unless we can conceive of some mechanism by which MIF does not exert this effect in the autism population only, why shouldn’t we be able to say that children with autism are different than other children in ways other than developmentally?

Because this is kind of a straw man. We know, for example, that many people with autism are different genetically. In some cases, these differences are large, with big chunks of DNA missing. So we expect that there will be lots of differences, many of which will probably have little to do with the symptoms that define autism. So correlation simply is not very informative. It can be very hard to distinguish causes from consequences.

For example, the GI system is very sensitive to stress. And autistic individuals frequently experience a great deal of stress in dealing with the world. So do some autistic people experience digestive problems because they have something wrong with their GI systems? Or just because they are upset a lot of the time?

@NBC in the know: can you provide a citation for that bit of info? It would be an alarming concession indeed, but I find it odd that the Thoughtful House letter doesn’t mention it, as it would seem to be a real victory for their side.

Perhaps NBC’s resident ignoramous was excluded in favor of Lauer was because she’s both a vaccine zealot and a high functioning moron, who, when discussing vaccines becomes so excited she becomes unable to string together a coherent sentence, famously calling pertussis “an easily to die from disease.”

In an archetypical revelation of her profoundly staggering ignorance she states in regards to pertussis,

“We nearly wiped it out but we’ve become complacent and now so complacent such that in 1994 there were about 1000 cases of whooping cough in this country a decade later 26k cases”

How Nancy did we become so complacent when rates are at record highs? And how Nancy can you be so unaware of the real reasons behind the so-called pertussis resurgence?

Future Microbiol. 2008 Jun;3:329-39
Factors contributing to pertussis resurgence.
He Q, Mertsola J.
Pertussis Reference Laboratory, National Public Health Institute, Kiinamyllynkatu 13, 20520 Turku, Finland. [email protected]
A resurgence of pertussis is observed in highly immunized populations. Many studies have shown that the causes for the resurgence are multiple, such as increased awareness of disease, use of better diagnostic tools, improved surveillance methods and waning vaccine-induced immunity.

Pertussis resurgence in Canada largely caused by a cohort effect.
The sudden increase in pertussis incidence in Canada can be largely attributed to a cohort effect resulting from a poorly protective pertussis vaccine used between 1985 and 1998.

The science and fiction of the “resurgence” of pertussis.
Cherry JD.
Pediatrics. 2003 Aug;112(2):405-6. No abstract available.

Weak vaccine and awareness Nancy. Not Complacency.

Sid – irrelevant ranting

Snyderman is NBC’s medical editor. If they don’t think she is appropriate for medical stories, then they should not have her as editor.

She certainly couldn’t be seen as impartial to the issue so how could she be involved in the segment? You have to agree with that, right?

No.

“Impartial” does not mean “both sides are equally possible.”

If you have a nut claiming that 2 + 2 = 5, do you have to find someone who doesn’t know math to interview them?

Whenever I read accounts of parents who have to take their children to Thoughtful House because nobody else will treat them I want to know which hospitals turned them away, which doctors refused treatment. Have any of these parents made complaints against these hospitals and doctors? Is there any documentary evidence to back up these disturbing allegations? Given that over 5000 families of autistic children were recruited to sue for vaccine injury, are any of them sueing these health professionals for malpractice?

First, I’ll apologize for my over-the-top ranting. I shouldn’t comment when I am frustrated about other things. Jen, I acknowledge that you have reasons to be annoyed, if the doctors treated your child as you say they did. But, can I ask for one thing? Can you give 5 positive things about your child? In all your postings, I have never seen you post something positive, only the negative.

Jen
I asked for details of parents who were refused treatment before they went to Thoughtful House. Your account of your pediatrician’s behaviour is disturbing. I hope it is resolved. But I do not want to get into personal stories here. I am interested in cases that are a part of the public record.

Hi Trrl –

Because this is kind of a straw man. We know, for example, that many people with autism are different genetically. In some cases, these differences are large, with big chunks of DNA missing. So we expect that there will be lots of differences, many of which will probably have little to do with the symptoms that define autism. So correlation simply is not very informative. It can be very hard to distinguish causes from consequences.

I’m not sure we are talking about the same thing. In this instance, I wasn’t talking about causing autism, but rather, can we address the notion that there is no difference between children with autism and children without besides developmentally? In any case, it does strike me as funny how calmly this particular ‘genetic difference’ is glossed over. I wonder if this is because this particular difference is highly associated with autoinflammatory conditions.

Have you read the Pediatrics MIF paper? Several measurements of behavioral severity correlated very strongly with circulating MIF levels. If the findings were random, it was a string of random findings that happened again and again by looking at values by a variety of measurements.

We know that having a diagnosis of autism makes you more likely to have increased levels of MIF. Genetic analysis and clinical measurements both indicate this. Unless having autism is making you have promoter alleles, I don’t think we have to worry to much about correlation style problems. The fact that autism, and IBD are multifactorial does nothing to change this.

Likewise, the relationship between MIF and inflammatory conditions like IBD seems very solid.

Look at it this way, if we had chart values that only listed MIF values, but said nothing about autism diagnosis, we could still make predictions as towards if a patient was more or less likely to have IBD or other gastrointestinal problems. It just so happens, when we include autism diagnosis, people with more MIF also have autism more likely that people with less.

For example, the GI system is very sensitive to stress. And autistic individuals frequently experience a great deal of stress in dealing with the world. So do some autistic people experience digestive problems because they have something wrong with their GI systems? Or just because they are upset a lot of the time?

We are in complete agreement! However, this speaks towards my point in my opinion; one set of children (autistics) are known to experience a great deal of stress in dealing with the world; and we know that this physiological response causes problems with digestion. If causation is not our measurment of interest, but instead, rather, are there differences other than developmental between autism and non diagnosed, the answer again seems clear.

– pD

@Jen: Thank you. I do love to read the positive things.

Jen’s primary care doctor was right. Krigsman has a history of running afoul of medical boards, and his “research” is generally mediocre and unconvincing. Most of this pet theories are as discredited as Wakefield’s.

Why a legitimate gastroenterologist would send a patient to him is beyond me.

after seeing a-non’s post , no comment, don’t know enough of Krigsman to comment directly; I think the primary may have communicated more effectively in any case.

Yes, I just got told to wake up and stop being brainwashed by a friend who unfortunately has young children in public schools, re swine flu vaccines. Because you know, some random website that argues that the government owns pharmaceuticals and some random journalist in Austria are far more believable than peer reviewed medicine, because supposedly the US government owns most of the healthcare stock anyway (I’m afraid my friend is going a little bit insane, and taking his family right along with him…)

(Oh, and my son does have ‘gut’ issues. they were diagnosed as disaccharidase deficiency – so a change in diet was in order for him, but it wasn’t caused by any vaccine, jut his genes)

The program might just be a game changer

In other words, they think that their “science” is best promoted via the media, presumably before they can’t succeed via scientific publications… If they can’t get the approval of scientific peers, then resorting to by-passing them and blowing a trumpet to the media is pretty low, basically a tactic admission of failure to my mind.

Please do not attempt to contact them prior to the broadcast.

Oh, come on. Scared of objective criticism spoiling your party?

I agree that the MSM’s idea of “balanced” is tired, old, incorrect and badly in need of being replaced.

@13 (Jen), these children are most definitely not being ignored by medicine (although that is probably a common “sales pitch” from some circles), what is being, and should be, ignored is unsound practice and unsound science.

or even better, the GMC hearing (doh).

Jen,

From your account, it definitely sounds like that doctor’s manner was completely inappropriate, and I would definitely be inclined to file a formal complaint about it.

In terms of the facts, though, she was entirely correct. Krigsman IS a quack who shouldn’t be trusted, she shouldn’t prescribe elemental formula until and unless SHE’S convinced it’s warranted (doing otherwise would be quite unethical), and autistic children DO improve over time regardless.

“In terms of the facts, though, she was entirely correct.”

No, she was not. Her decision was based solely on her *opinion* instead of the evidence that was presented, which makes her no better than Wakefield.

Are streaking nodularity and circumferential rings in the esophagus normal findings? No they are not, and even a layperson could look at that evidence and conclude there was a problem, in addition to the laboratory evidence of occult blood in his stools and multiple food protein allergies. She does not have the knowledge or expertise to go over the head two highly qualified gastroenterologists and make decisions based on emotion. She was downright hateful, and it took every ounce of my self-control to keep from leaping across the room and clawing her eyes out.

Fortunately, we are no longer with that HMO, so her “opinions” are no longer relevant.

“That doesn’t mean you should shove an endoscope down all of them.”

Calli, you lose credibility when you make overly dramatic statements such as this. I can assure you that endoscopes are not “shoved” down every child that walks into Thoughtful House. There are many other ways that gut issues can be treated non-invasively, and all of them are exhausted before a consult to Dr. Krigsman is made.

You’re right, my choice of words was poor. What I meant was speaking to was the fact that Andrew Wakefield et al allege that autism is largely caused by gut inflammation, ergo, they feel that all autistic children should be worked up for gut issues. Yet diagnosing gut issues in a non-verbal child is extremely difficult. Most of the time, it does come down to an invasive test of some kind, because there’s really only so much you can learn from stool samples. (Celiac sprue is diagnosed by biopsy, which is obtained from endoscopy or colonoscopy. GERD is diagnosed after dangling a sensor down the esophagus for several hours to figure out what that upper stomach valve is up to. Diverticulums have to be directly imaged. Etc.) I worry about unnecessarily subjecting too many kids to these tests. It’s expensive, for one thing, and raising an autistic child can get costly anyway. But more to the point, it’s unpleasant, and autistic kids don’t tend to tolerate discomfort as well as other kids. Potentially risky, too. One of the kids in Wakefield’s original study wound up with a perforated colon, a known risk of colonoscopy. So the kid needs to have a good chance of benefiting from the test before they get subjected to it, in my opinion, and I have concerns that Thoughtful House is too quick to recommend invasive tests. They also sell it as a treatment for autism, based on Wakefield’s premise that autism is caused by gut inflammation, and there’s no evidence to support that — but since they sell it, there is a profit motive for them, and that’s reason to pause and think about whether they’re being truly objective when they profit directly from the diagnosis. (You seem to be skeptical of the vaccine manufacturers — and rightly so — because they’re in it from profit. The same skepticism should apply to Thoughtful House as well, which is also in it for profit.)

By all means, if a child has genuine gut issues, they should be treated. And certainly the child’s behavior will improve once they are treated, because they won’t be in pain anymore. And absolutely, digestive system issues tend to go undiagnosed for far too long, resulting in needless suffering. I’m not sure what the best solution for that is; I mean, gut issues go undiagnosed even in those who can speak for themselves. My aunt probably had GERD for decades (she certainly had symptoms) before she was finally diagnosed. Now she has Barrett’s Esophagus (an irreversible precancerous condition). I do think more research needs to be done into new ways of identifying these problems. It’s not going to be easy, and I don’t expect it to happen quickly. But heck, just thinking about how long it took to diagnose my cousin’s celiac sprue (originally misdiagnosed as meningitis) . . . she could’ve died, or had permanent intestinal damage. That’s scary to think about.

“There is something of a larger caution about trying unproven and unsupported treatments, perhaps.”

Ordinarily, I’d agree with you. In fact, it was that lack of evidence that kept me from using the DAN! protocol in the years since his diagnosis. However, my son does not have the luxury of time. He is 15 years old, severely autistic, with testosterone surging through his growing body, and a tendency to become quite violent.

I approach everything with caution, and I’m not in this for a “cure”. I expect no miracles. Chelation and HBOT do not interest me. The only thing that interests me is having him free from pain, and if he shows some cognitive improvements along the way, I’m happy. If he doesn’t, no worries. This is a quality of life issue for us.

Navi — lactose intolerance isn’t a “deficiency” of anything; it’s the (historical) human norm. People who are lactase persistent have a particular mutation. I think statistically speaking, lactose intolerance is still more common than lactose persistance, although the gene for lactase persistence is apparently dominant and spreading rapidly.

Jen: the severely autistic boy who I care for part-time is now 19. He did the testosterone surge and more violent period for 5-6 years (even as a kid we had too much hitting, this was merely exacerbated for a while), so believe me, I know what it’s like. Yes, quality of life and freedom from pain matters. A lot. And I applaud your decision NOT to go for things like DAN! and chelation, in the face of this.

The good news is, our boy got nothing but time and consistency, and his behaviour has been really improving over the last couple of years. Better communication and engagement, MUCH less violence, much less inappropriately acting out sexually — he’s not incapable of learning, after all, and there are people he really cares about and depends on, and is sensitive to feedback from. But as has been repeated umpteen times before, autism is a disease of developmental *delay*, not developmental stasis; time alone helps. Personally, I think that the neural pruning which occurs towards the end of adolescence brings a lot of cognitive benefit to autistic kids.

But to be honest, that only complicates things when it comes to evaluating treatments. People are very prone to placebo effect and confirmation bias under the best of circumstances. When it is a desperately emotional situation (as it is for many parents with ill and/or autistic kids), and when time itself can lend reality to perceived improvements, it becomes hard for people who really need medical practices which take them seriously to distinguish between real effect and hopeful snake oil. And this is where many real, mainstream doctors completely lose their rag with Wakefield, Krigsman et al., because they see them taking advantage of that fact for pure profit, and giving out false information in the process.

If you got real help, please believe me, I’m really, really glad. But then I see the other side of Krigsman, and I can’t ignore things like:

After studying the extensive evidence in this case for many months, I am convinced that the reports and advice given to the Cedillos by Dr. Krigsman and some other physicians, advising the Cedillos that there is a causal connection between Michelle’s MMR vaccination and her chronic conditions, have been very wrong. Unfortunately, the Cedillos have been misled by physicians who are guilty, in my view, of gross medical misjudgment. Nevertheless, I can understand why the Cedillos found such reports and advice to be believable under the circumstances. I conclude that the Cedillos filed this Program claim in good faith.

(Office of Special Masters 98-916V pages 173-174)

I prefer to see patient advocacy groups pushing for reform of practice within science-based and mainstream medicine, to deal with patient concerns at the level and with the time and seriousness that people need to see, rather than seeing people forced outside mainstream for help.

I just saw Offit embarrass himself once again on national television. He’s becoming quite a spectacle:

We’ve seen outbreaks of whooping couch in the last ten years like we’ve never seen before

He must be getting his information from Nancy Snyderman these days. 100,000 cases in the 50s and 26,000 during the resurgence. Outbreaks like we’ve never seen before??????

Wakefield looked cool and calm while Offit appeared tense, agitated and on the verge of tears when speaking about all the “damage” Wakefield has caused

Sid:

100,000 cases in the 50s and 26,000 during the resurgence. Outbreaks like we’ve never seen before??????

Yes, if you were born after the 50’s. And over what time span in each case?

Wakefield looked cool and calm
while Offit appeared tense, agitated and on the verge of tears when speaking about all the “damage” Wakefield has caused

Well, why not? When I consider what the anti-vax nuts are doing, I too get “tense, agitated and on the verge of tears”.
BTW, one of the characteristics of psychopathy is appearing cool and calm under pressure – just sayin’…

cbe #78

@sciencemom:

I wonder if Wakefield’s camp realized that Dr Offit would be spliced in to his (Wakefield’s) interview. If you watched the preview, every point that Wakefield made was countered by Offit, the interview switched over to Lauer with Offit to refute everything and to add evidence of growing concern for increases in VPDs as well as information on the studies out there against Wakefield.

I can’t imagine that Wakers would do this without considerable control over the questions and content. The AoA crowd that worships Wakers and dismiss any refuting evidence have deluded themselves into believing that Dr. Offit is the Voldemort of vaccines and warrant him incredulous, perhaps they project that delusion onto the viewing audience. We shall see after Sunday evening won’t we?

“Sir, you are an idiot. I hope autism creeps into your family and devastates your world like it has all of ours.”

Ah the sweet reason and lovingkindness of the antivax liar. Truly a light shining in the darkness. If you grow up, you will be ashamed of your lies and your hatefulness. I’ll pray for you.

Scott, it appears as though your mind is made up already, but I should clarify…the other GE moved out of state to start a new practice prior to my son’s endoscopy, so no, he did not view Krigsman’s findings.

You shouldn’t have implied that he agreed with Krigsman then.

However, do you really think that he would have risked his own credibility and written that letter requesting authorization for Dr. Krigsman to perform the procedure if he had had any doubts whatsoever about his abilities and expertise?

Given that you apparently specifically requested Krigsman, and I suspect rather forcefully, yes. As a matter of fact, I do.

“Jen, do you have a reason to believe that your GE knew who Krigsman was, or knew anything of Krigsman’s background?”

Yes, I do. We discussed my son’s history and what we were doing at Thoughtful House in depth with him, and he also viewed some of the pertinent laboratory results ordered by Dr. Krigsman. He was thrilled and happy for us that my son was showing such remarkable improvement. Nothing was “forced.”

The wording of the letter reads as follows: “(personal info omitted)…I am writing a letter regarding ________ who has a history of abdominal pain, most likely associated with autism. He has seen Dr. Krigsman who is a pediatric gastroenterologist at Thoughtful House in Austin. Dr. Krigsman is an expert in gastrointestinal manifestations of autism, and the patient’s mother would like endoscopy to be performed by Dr. Krigsman. I agree with this decision. Please provide authorization so that _______ can have endoscopy be performed by Dr. Krigsman who does specialized testing for autistic children. This type of testing is not done by ___________ Hospital.”

Draw your own conclusions.

Luna, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. 🙂

@86 –

Autism is *genetic* – if the genes don’t run in his family, it’s not likely to “creep in”.
Look into some kind of care for yourself (respite, psychological, etc.) to help you deal with your incredible anger. If you were able to use that force toward good, you could effect positive change, instead of discrediting your cause. .

As for me, I’m hardly neurotypical (dx very high functioning Aspergers, bipolar disorder, and ADHD), but I don’t have time to be angry about it. It’s much easier to take positive action to better my situation.

Hi Trrl –

Again, why would we want to address this? I’ve never encountered any autism researcher who believes this, so it strikes me as an utter straw man.

Aha! Please see response #18, where MI Dawn said:

For goodness’ sake, QUIT with the lying that only autistic children have gut problems, or that they are ANY different, except for developmentally, than other children.

I’m not sure if MI Dawn believes / believed it was a strawman. (?)

Who suggested that the findings were random? There are many ways such a correlation could arise. To give just a few examples:
1. Developmental processes affecting the brain and regulation of MIF are both affected by the same gene. (common cause but functionally unrelated)

But we knew exactly which alleles they were looking at in this study; promoter genes for MIF. There is a possibility that this particular gene also affects the brain; but there seems to be precious little literature on this. Indeed, pubmed searches involving MIF and the brain are all about the immune response. Indeed, one would believe that our existing knowledge of MIF and immunity would have turned up something previously concerning developmental trajectories and MIF; yet for some reason, this evidence doesn’t seem to exist. Have you seen any studies that indicate there might be mechanisms the genes studied in Pediatrics, known to have strong associations to autoimmune conditions, also have impacts on brain development?

2. A gene that affects MIF is physically close to a gene that affects brain development, so that they tend to assort together (real but coincidental).

OK. But again, we observed changes to known promoter genes. And unless we have a reason to believe that this promoter acts differently in regards towards an exaggerated immune response and GI problems like IBD, in autism, and autism only, I don’t see how this helps much.

3. MIF could have a role in brain development that is distinct from its role in inflammation.

This is possible, but again, I’m struggling to see a reason why we’d know so much about MIF in regards to classically identified autoimmune disorders, and nothing about its impact on brain development. Maybe this is an artifact of my poor searching abilities; do you have any evidence that MIF is associated with brain development by means distinct from its role in inflammation?

Its elevation in the plasma of some autistic individuals could be a factor in their autism, but have no relationship to IBD. No evidence is presented for bowel disease in the subjects with elevated plasma MIF. (real but functionally unrelated).

What about this study?

Amelioration of dextran sulfate sodium-induced colitis by anti-macrophage migration inhibitory factor antibody in mice

Not only did chemically induced colitis amerliorate with introduction of anti-mif in animal models, but in fact, plasma levels between people with UC and IBD were found to be increased compared to people without:

Plasma MIF was elevated in patients with Crohn’s disease or ulcerative colitis compared with healthy controls.

In any case, the argument here teeters on a particularly fragile precipice, that MIF is our only point of knowledge regarding inflammation and IBD. But that isn’t true; the literature regarding a role of inflammation in IBD is large, and difficult to assail. Likewise, our knowledge concerning the effect of MIF on inflammation, promotion, is also very large. You don’t need to just argue that MIF isn’t associated with IBD, but indeed, that a proinflammatory state isn’t associated with IBD; and this is a very problematic case to make.

4. Autism causes stress, and stress hormones influence MIF levels. There is evidence to support this. (indirect consequence)

This points towards my argument again; that kids with autism are different in ways other than developmentally, and this difference in fact, predisposes them towards a pro-inflammatory state. With that tendency towards inflammation comes risk with other diseases, among which, is IBD. Also, stress levels aren’t giving kids known promoter alleles at increased frequency.

Here you are making an argument of the form
A implies C
B implies C
Therefore A implies B
(where A = autism, B = bowel disease, and C = elevated plasma MIF)

Can I replace C with ‘tendency towards inflammation’? Because that’s what MIF does, increases inflammation; and what’s more, there are plenty of ways to get there besides MIF, and we’ve got loads of clinical evidence for that in autism as well.

It is quite possible, for example, that MIF could be elevated in both IBD and autism, but that autistic people are not at elevated risk of IBD.

For this to be true, we need a reason for all of our knowledge concerning either:

1) The effects on MIF regarding tendency towards an inflammatory state to be wrong, or wrong in autism specifically.

2) The effects of a tendency towards inflammatory state in regards to IBD to be wrong.

I don’t see any of that in what you’ve provided. Both arguments need logical leaps; one argument mandates that a vast amount of existing knowledge regarding MIF, inflammation, and gut diseases are incorrect, the other argument asserts that there may be reasons the correlation is spurious, but no existing knowledge to rely on.

I am enjoying this conversation.

– pD

Aha! Please see response #18, where MI Dawn said:

For goodness’ sake, QUIT with the lying that only autistic children have gut problems, or that they are ANY different, except for developmentally, than other children.

She’s talking about medical differences, not subtle biochemical shifts in levels of particular proteins. In fact there is not good evidence that autistic children are more prone to gut problems, although it is plausible that they might be. After all, the gut has a nervous system, too, so if there is a developmental issue related to nervous system development, it could plausibly effect the enteric nervous system as well as the CNS, with no need to invoke hypotheses about the immune system.

But we knew exactly which alleles they were looking at in this study; promoter genes for MIF. There is a possibility that this particular gene also affects the brain; but there seems to be precious little literature on this. Indeed, pubmed searches involving MIF and the brain are all about the immune response.

You haven’t looked very hard, then. There are multiple reports of MIF having effects on neurons that have nothing to do with the immune response. Biology is full of factors that were originally named for their effect on one system, but that turned out to have more important effects somewhere else. MIF is widely expressed all over the body, including in brain. When it comes to factors that affect things like cell migration, the safe assumption is that they will have multiple roles. Biology has a tendency to find multiple uses for things that work.

OK. But again, we observed changes to known promoter genes. And unless we have a reason to believe that this promoter acts differently in regards towards an exaggerated immune response and GI problems like IBD, in autism, and autism only, I don’t see how this helps much.

Association in genetic studies does not mean functional association. Two genes that are close together will tend to correlate simply on the basis of proximity. So the MIF promoter changes could merely be a marker for something else entirely.

Not only did chemically induced colitis amerliorate with introduction of anti-mif in animal models, but in fact, plasma levels between people with UC and IBD were found to be increased compared to people without:

However, one cannot from this conclude that elevation of MIF is sufficient to cause gut problems. That’s the problem with correlation.

In any case, the argument here teeters on a particularly fragile precipice, that MIF is our only point of knowledge regarding inflammation and IBD. But that isn’t true; the literature regarding a role of inflammation in IBD is large, and difficult to assail.

Who’s assailing it? MIF certainly affects macrophage migration. That doesn’t mean that is the only thing that it does.

Can I replace C with ‘tendency towards inflammation’?

No. This is another logical fallacy, known as “assuming the conclusion.” We have no evidence that autism implies a tendency towards inflammation.

For this to be true, we need a reason for all of our knowledge concerning either:

1) The effects on MIF regarding tendency towards an inflammatory state to be wrong, or wrong in autism specifically.

2) The effects of a tendency towards inflammatory state in regards to IBD to be wrong.

Not necessarily. In fact, while changes in MIF can alter the course of an existing inflammation, there is no evidence that high plasma MIF results in inflammation. So you are drawing conclusions based on multiple correlations. Once again, it is fallacious to argue that because
A implies C, and because
B implies C,
that A implies B

To make this conclusion, you need to show that C implies B–for example, that elevation of plasma MIF comparable to that observed in autistic patients is sufficient to cause IBD. It strikes me as very far-fetched.

I approach this subject from a different angle. I have watched the pharmaceutical companies for a long time from an investment perspective. Anyone who thinks that they are purely honest, scientific people and everything they do is for the good of customers and patients is deceiving themselves.

No one at this site, the author included, has definitive evidence either way. THAT cannot be refuted. All of the ‘studies showing no link’ have been ripped apart for methodology and limitations. The same can be said for the ‘studies on the other side’ as well.

This is false equivalence. While it is certainly true that virtually every scientific study ever done has some kind of methodological flaws or limitations, that does not mean that one study is as good as another, or that evidence cannot be definitive. While almost every study has some flaws or limitations, much of the time they are irrelevant to the conclusions. It is rare indeed, however, for a study to be as flagrantly bad as those of Wakefield, for example, where

1. The PCR methodology was shown not to include a basic “negative control,” which is essential for a study to have any validity at all.

2. The conclusions were disavowed by other authors and laboratory members on the grounds that they did not accurately describe the results.

3. Other studies, with improved methodology failed to replicate any of Wakefield’s conclusions

4. Wakefield had multiple undeclared financial conflicts of interest.

5. Multiple findings contrary to the study’s conclusions were not acknowledged.

Anyone watch? what did you think?

Lauer missed big opportunities to grill Wakefield. In the segment with Deer, he quotes the part of the patent that claims it would eliminate the need for MMR. When Wakefield claims that the patent was for a treatment for people already with measles who couldn’t clear the virus, Lauer doesn’t call him on it and quote the part of the patent to Wakefield.

soft ball for sure.

lack of curiosity? how could you possibly classify a subject that has been studied so many times as suffering from ‘lack of curiosity’ on the part of scientists?

Rob over at Science-Based Parenting just watched it and concluded that Dateline dropped the ball…

Dateline’s Dose of Controversy is an Opportunity Missed

But, how does a real scientist deny the possibility that there could be a connection? I really have never comprehended that lack of curiosity.

Massive straw man argument. No one has denied the “possibility” that there could be a connection. What we have said is that the evidence is overwhelmingly against a connection, so much so that further study is not a wise use of our limited research dollars. Moreover, what we have said is that the evidence does not support the contention that vaccines (or mercury in vaccines or whatever) are responsible for an “autism epidemic.”

Let’s put it this way. It’s possible that AIDS is not cause by HIV, but the evidence is so overwhelmingly against it that there’s no practical justification for spending much effort in that direction. As an extreme example, it’s also possible that there is a celestial teapot circling the sun between Earth and Mars. Does that mean we should spend money looking for it?

I have tears in my eyes as I read these blogs. I have a 4 yr old son, Brandon. I watched him stop speaking and regress into autism right after having the MMR shot. At the same time, he became chronically constipated due to bowel dysbiosis. I waited 35 years to have a child and I watched this tragedy happen before my own eyes. None of you can possibly understand the PAIN of losing your child to this disease. And it IS A DISEASE!!! I can only thank Doctors like Andrew Wakefield everyday for thinking outside the box. He is right on and unless you live it, you dont know. We are multidosing our children and not all can handle the assault. And by the way…..Brandon has high toxic levels of alluminum in his body, an adjuvant used in vaccines. It just happened to replace the mercury in 2002. Nice way to shut up worried parents, dont you think?

I have tears in my eyes as I read these blogs. I have a 4 yr old son, Brandon. I watched him stop speaking and regress into autism right after having the MMR shot. At the same time, he became chronically constipated due to bowel dysbiosis. I waited 35 years to have a child and I watched this tragedy happen before my own eyes. None of you can possibly understand the PAIN of losing your child to this disease. And it IS A DISEASE!!! I can only thank Doctors like Andrew Wakefield everyday for thinking outside the box. He is right on and unless you live it, you dont know. We are multidosing our children and not all can handle the assault. And by the way…..Brandon has high toxic levels of alluminum in his body, an adjuvant used in vaccines. It just happened to replace the mercury in 2002. Nice way to shut up worried parents, dont you think?

I have tears in my eyes as I read these blogs. I have a 4 yr old son, Brandon. I watched him stop speaking and regress into autism right after having the MMR shot. At the same time, he became chronically constipated due to bowel dysbiosis. I waited 35 years to have a child and I watched this tragedy happen before my own eyes. None of you can possibly understand the PAIN of losing your child to this disease. And it IS A DISEASE!!! I can only thank Doctors like Andrew Wakefield everyday for thinking outside the box. He is right on and unless you live it, you dont know. We are multidosing our children and not all can handle the assault. And by the way…..Brandon has high toxic levels of alluminum in his body, an adjuvant used in vaccines. It just happened to replace the mercury in 2002. Nice way to shut up worried parents, dont you think?

I have tears in my eyes as I read these blogs. I have a 4 yr old son, Brandon. I watched him stop speaking and regress into autism right after having the MMR shot. At the same time, he became chronically constipated due to bowel dysbiosis. I waited 35 years to have a child and I watched this tragedy happen before my own eyes. None of you can possibly understand the PAIN of losing your child to this disease. And it IS A DISEASE!!! I can only thank Doctors like Andrew Wakefield everyday for thinking outside the box. He is right on and unless you live it, you dont know. We are multidosing our children and not all can handle the assault. And by the way…..Brandon has high toxic levels of alluminum in his body, an adjuvant used in vaccines. It just happened to replace the mercury in 2002. Nice way to shut up worried parents, dont you think?

I have tears in my eyes as I read these blogs. I have a 4 yr old son, Brandon. I watched him stop speaking and regress into autism right after having the MMR shot. At the same time, he became chronically constipated due to bowel dysbiosis. I waited 35 years to have a child and I watched this tragedy happen before my own eyes. None of you can possibly understand the PAIN of losing your child to this disease. And it IS A DISEASE!!! I can only thank Doctors like Andrew Wakefield everyday for thinking outside the box. He is right on and unless you live it, you dont know. We are multidosing our children and not all can handle the assault. And by the way…..Brandon has high toxic levels of alluminum in his body, an adjuvant used in vaccines. It just happened to replace the mercury in 2002. Nice way to shut up worried parents, dont you think?

I have tears in my eyes as I read these blogs. I have a 4 yr old son, Brandon. I watched him stop speaking and regress into autism right after having the MMR shot. At the same time, he became chronically constipated due to bowel dysbiosis. I waited 35 years to have a child and I watched this tragedy happen before my own eyes. None of you can possibly understand the PAIN of losing your child to this disease. And it IS A DISEASE!!! I can only thank Doctors like Andrew Wakefield everyday for thinking outside the box. He is right on and unless you live it, you dont know. We are multidosing our children and not all can handle the assault. And by the way…..Brandon has high toxic levels of alluminum in his body, an adjuvant used in vaccines. It just happened to replace the mercury in 2002. Nice way to shut up worried parents, dont you think?

I have tears in my eyes as I read these blogs. I have a 4 yr old son, Brandon. I watched him stop speaking and regress into autism right after having the MMR shot. At the same time, he became chronically constipated due to bowel dysbiosis. I waited 35 years to have a child and I watched this tragedy happen before my own eyes. None of you can possibly understand the PAIN of losing your child to this disease. And it IS A DISEASE!!! I can only thank Doctors like Andrew Wakefield everyday for thinking outside the box. He is right on and unless you live it, you dont know. We are multidosing our children and not all can handle the assault. And by the way…..Brandon has high toxic levels of alluminum in his body, an adjuvant used in vaccines. It just happened to replace the mercury in 2002. Nice way to shut up worried parents, dont you think?

Kim- you need to go educate yourself before you get on that soap box. Aluminum is an adjuvant whereas “mercury” (as you call it) was a preservative. They have nothing to do with each other and one has never affected the presence of the other.

In addition, Wakefield’s work has nothing to do with either of these things, as neither are found in the MMR vaccine.

You might want to think about where you are getting your information…

I understand that there’s no proof that vaccines cause autism. But, how does a real scientist deny the possibility that there could be a connection? I really have never comprehended that lack of curiosity.

It makes me embarrassed for the state of medical education that somebody with “MD” after his name would ask something so abysmally, mind-numbingly stupid.

Scientists don’t deny the possibility that their could be a connection, any more than we deny the possibility that Russell’s Teapot is out there happily orbiting between Earth and Mars.

You use the word, “curiosity. I don’t think it means what you think it means. Look it up. It is not a synonym for “credulity.” There are a huge number of things that are possible. Almost all of them are false. That’s why we study statistics–to learn how to distinguish between the many things that are possible, but very, very improbable, and the small handful that are likely to be true.

@Kim AutismMom

None of you can possibly understand the PAIN of losing your child to this disease.

While I understand the emotion and pain of dealing with autism, your child is not gone. He is still there. He still needs your love. He still needs you to watch out for him, just like any child needs their parents. He can still learn and grow and become more than he is now or was in the past. I’ve seen what effects autism has, from the very, very low-functioning to the high-functioning. And in every case, every kid is beautiful and full of potential. Your son needs you to see that.

So, as others have suggested, go out and get the truth. Read more of Orac’s blog posts on vaccines. Go to Science-Based Medicine and click on the Topic-Based Reference tab at the top right of the page. You can find extensive info on vaccines there. http://antiantivax.flurf.net is also a good resource to see where the info put out by the likes of Wakefield, Generation Rescue, Age of Autism and so forth is, at best, wrong and at worst outright lies.

All the best.

kim, you have evidently swallowed a lot of the anti-vax propaganda without realising that it is false information. I understand finding an “answer” and clinging to it with all your strength, but if this “answer” is built on misundertanding and wishful thinking, it is less than useful.

The total quantity of aluminum salts used in all infant immunizations is about 4.4mg. The amount of aluminum in breastmilk from the same period of time is about 7mg. From formula rather than breast milk an infant would get about 38-117 mg of aluminum, depending on the formula. (figures from http://www.chop.edu/consumer/jsp/division/generic.jsp?id=88655)

Not to mention the fact that aluminum has never been used as an adjuvant in MMR, nor, in all the years of the use of aluminum salts as adjuvants, has there EVER been any indication that it had ANY effect on the absorption or metabolism of fatty acids. In any context.

…Here’s what I don’t think you understand: Wakefield appears sincere, kind, sympathetic and helpful. Con men MUST appear sincere and helpful, their living depends on it, since their data do not stand up to scrutiny. They depend on you liking and trusting them, and not being suspicious. If they can get you onside, you will do 3/4 of their work, by fooling yourself and rejecting all the information which is contrary to what they tell you.

I think that’s pretty much where you are now.

Kim, much of the testing for “toxins” from these kinds of clinics is highly suspect, at best. If anything, have testing done by an independent laboratory.

Considering the small amount of aluminum in vaccines, and the small volume of vaccine administered, it is physically impossible for a child to have a highly toxic level of aluminum in his blood.

Nobody here denies the difficulties parents feel. In fact, that is part of what motivates so many to stay active and fight those that take advantage of parents and their children for their own financial gain.

One of the sad ironies of this controversy is the fact that so many in the anti-vaccination movement are after the money and not the ones supporting vaccination.

@Kim AutismMom

When my son was tested, high toxic levels of alluminum were found in his system.

Tested by whom? Using what process? What form of aluminum was it? I ask because there are labs that survive simply to make money off of the “controversy”. The form of aluminum is also important, as it can potentially help to identify the source. Further, more aluminum is found in breast milk than in vaccines.

When given the MMR vaccine, the live measles virus can infect the gut of a child who’s immune system is not working properly or is already in trouble biochemically speaking, such as my son. This virus can cause a chronic inflammatory bowel disease. Anytime you have an inflammatory condition in the bowels, your gut lining can thin out to the point where toxins in the gut leak into the bloodstream and go to the brain.

You do realize, don’t you, that Wakefield’s research which supposedly found this was woefully flawed, that much of the data was made up by Wakefield himself, that he had numerous conflicts of interest which he did not disclose, that his sample size was insufficient to make any statistically meaningful conclusions, and that almost every other person involved in the study withdrew their names? That Wakefield violated medical ethics? These are not opinions of people that don’t like him. These are facts that can be verified. Much of it is in the public domain.

As far as educating myself, I will continue to read the research done by doctors such as Wakefield, Bryon Jebson and Jerry Kartinel, who actually devote their practices to treating and studying autism.

The reason to avoid their research is that it is flawed research by individuals with significant biases clouding their work, at least given their track record thus far. Better to look at the research done by individuals who use better methodology, adhere to medical ethics, and are looking for the real cause(s) of autism.

As to your son speaking, I’m happy for you and for him. I doubt that Thoughtful House’s treatments had anything to do with it as language development tends to happy by leaps and hiccups, but an anecdote does not data make.

This might be why we seem so divergent. I seemed to have formed the opposite opinion based on my readings. I seemed to have formed the opposite opinion based on my readings; I’m curious if you would be willing to describe what type of finding you would feel constitutes evidence for a tendency towards inflammation? With that information, I’d like to evaluate what I’ve read in a variety of papers before writing a more lengthy response.

Yet all of the “evidence” you cite seems to fall back on the fallacy,

A implies C
B implies C
Therefore A implies B

Real evidence would be a randomized studies of autistic children vs. nonautistic children, evaluating actual symptoms of GI disorders or histology (with diagnostic tests read “blind”), that demonstrated a substantially higher frequency of GI disorders.

AutismMom: The people who are closest to a situation are also most likely to have skewed perceptions of it, due to the absolutely inevitable human cognitive errors which afflict every human being on the planet, bar none: recall bias, confirmation bias, wishful thinking, and placebo. It is for THAT reason that we rely on large studies where people rely on dispassionate observers, hard numbers, and blinded treatments to try to tease out real effects from the errors of assessment which people with an emotional involvement are especially prone to.

I would like to point out that babies have spent the vast majority of human evolutionary history crawling around in the dirt during the day, and coming into very close contact with hundreds of thousands more “toxins” and pathogens than we currently get in our very sanitized lives. To make some argument that we are “overwhelming undeveloped immune systems” with vaccinations totally ignores the facts that, first, vaccinations are made with a tiny fraction of the material that they would encounter in a disease situation, and often not even the entire disease pathogen, simply a component of it, and second, that humans survived centuries of living in the same room as their livestock and a few centuries more of living in rooms coloured with lead and arsenic, and being dosed with antimony and mercury for “health”. You would have thought that if these substances were the cause of autism, that medieval through Victorian times would have had the plague of autism!

And, finally, if you are going to accuse anyone of profiteering off human misery, then you should take a hard look at the fact that Wakefield’s “Thoughtful House” has managed to declare itself a non-profit, but can afford to pay Dr. Wakefield well over $300,000/year, and itself holds assets worth over $5,000,000 and takes in over $2,000,000/year. And this is with a far smaller clientele than companies which manufacture vaccines.

But, it is obvious from your postings here already, that “cold hard facts” don’t mean nearly as much to you as emotional appeal, and will be duly ignored as being much less important than what you want to believe.

@AutismMom

Out of curiosity, what would it take to convince you that vaccines have no role in autism?

When I see the garbage that parents buy at the grocery store I cringe. Grams and grams of garbage they are pouring into their children. Vaccine are about 98% sterile water. What’s left is micrograms of stuff. Watch the Jenny McCarthey thing on Larry King (youtube). In part three I think it is, a doctor explains that his son became autistic after the MMR vaccine and would then only eat cookies and french fries. Was his one year old son driving to the store and buying all of these cookies and french fries for himself? Things that make you go Hmmmm.

@LeslieRN72

I believe one of the more pertinent quotes by Ms. McCarthy is actually from her appearance on Larry King Live:

I do believe sadly it’s going to take some diseases coming back to realize that we need to change and develop vaccines that are safe. If the vaccine companies are not listening to us, it’s their f___ing fault that the diseases are coming back. They’re making a product that’s s___. If you give us a safe vaccine, we’ll use it. It shouldn’t be polio versus autism.

I find that somewhat telling.

Quite the contrary, M Dawn. I have embraced my son’s autism, have never had trouble coping. I have also done wonders with him and have watched him soar past many of his classmates at his special needs school. I have brought him to Yale University to their autism clinic which is one of the to research centers out there. They dont even feel his diagnosis should remain straight Autism at this point because he has come so far in only 2 years. I am not a naive, grieving mother by any means. I am a strong, highly intelligent , loving mother trying to figure out this complex disease and I must be doing something right by the looks of things here in my home. In fact, I have a huge smile on my face as I write this because if I had listened to skeptics like yourselves, Brandon would not be where he is today. I am proud!!!!!

Oh, and Leslie, I’d be willing to BET that you are an overweight, not so attractive woman. Don’t hate!

@AutismMom

Oh, and Leslie, I’d be willing to BET that you are an overweight, not so attractive woman. Don’t hate!

Why the insults? MI Dawn was respectful toward you and not insulting. That was uncalled for.

AutismMom,

Oh, and Leslie, I’d be willing to BET that you are an overweight, not so attractive woman. Don’t hate!

This is just an example of hypocrisy. You are criticizing the presumed appearance of someone you disagree with, rather than the substance of their statements.

You appear to be suggesting that we should hate someone, for being an overweight, not so attractive woman.

Perhaps you should take your own advice about hating.

This ad hominem attack is just an example of your logically bankrupt approach to this. You seem to be happy to hurt children, as long as it pushes your corrupt agenda.

Research shows us what works. Everything else is witchcraft. You are proposing that everyone make up their own rules and ignore science.

You are a dangerous irresponsible person, encouraging child abuse.

140 141 142, It is obvious that 135 was making a joke to the fact that Leslie 135 was making so many comments about Jenny M’s appearance that it made her ‘appear’ as a jealous, hateful person. I dont think autismmom was saying Leslie must look like that just because she disagreed.

Anyway, I cant help but comment that everytime these vaccine discussions come up, some people seem to chime in like they know what the parent or autistic child is feeling. I feel compelled to share my perspective. One of my children has austism, and no, I do not believe it was caused by vaccines. My point is about living with autism. Even if you have a child with austism, you still cant know what life is like for another parent unless you live it. My daughter is 19 and completely non functional. So, when people make comments like “you didnt lose your child to austism” they are very wrong in some cases. She left when she was 21mos old and never came back. Of course, we all still communicate with her, but we dont ‘know’ if she listens, if she knows we love her, or if she even knows she is alive. She eats through a tube, wears a diaper and padded clothing, and lays curled in fetal position. Thankfully, she does not ‘appear’ to be in pain. So, please dont ever talk down to parents and tell them life is still rosy with their austitic child. Just love them and all will be fine. It may be love, but it is defintely not a rosy life and it is not fine. It is a lifetime of nursing care, constant fear for the child’s safety, and sadness for some parents.

@Bill C.

So, please dont ever talk down to parents and tell them life is still rosy with their austitic child.

I think you misunderstood me. I was most definitely not saying that everything will be all happy and rosy. I am quite aware of how much hard work it is and how much vigilance is required, particularly for those who are on the low-functioning end of the spectrum. Apologies for not stating that explicitly. My intent was more to focus on the fact that the child needs love and support, not non-scientific treatments to “fix” them.

As to the child being gone, they aren’t. What’s gone is the parent’s hopes or dreams of what they thought their child would become. The child’s still there. They may have changed. Their ability to interact with the world around them may be impaired, but they’re still there.

Is it tough? Yes. Can it be heartbreaking? Yes. Does autism mean that they are no longer your child? Most definitely not! That’s the point I was trying to make. A fair number of the supporters of Wakefield, et al., seem to feel that their child has been taken away and replaced with some thing.

I hope I clarified my meaning; words are surprisingly limiting at times. And regardless of whether Kim’s comment about Leslie was a joke or not, it was still inappropriate.

@Bill C.

I want to see the tv show on the autism debate that doesnt waste all its time discussing vaccines.

Ditto. It would be so nice to put all this vaccine nonsense behind us and see some more useful research and reporting.

I have faith, though, that, just as we moved past FC, we can move past vaccines, frustrating thought the interim may be.

There have been questions for years about the link between the MMR vaccine and autism. Enough that it has not been able to be ruled out. Talk with a parent whose child was normal at 15 months, but then regressed and was diagnosed with autism after routine vaccinations. It is thought that the hydrocephalus that can be caused by the vaccine is able to cause irreversible brain cell damage that is then later described as autism. I have a cousin who was diagnosed with autism-no genetic history in ANY known generation of the family and another cousin who lost a 13 month old after he was vaccinated. You cannot deny the serious possibility of this link to the parents who have been affected by this. The CDC has a whole fund set aside for families of children who either are injured or die as a result of a vaccine; this is because they did not want the manufacturer of the vaccine to get sued. One of the ingredients in the vaccines up until recently was mercury. When “mercury” is looked up in my medical book, it states that ANY amount is toxic to the body. Yet, we injected them with every vaccination. All these physicians and parents are asking for is objective research and no false statements to cover up the possibility of the relation between the vaccine and their loved one’s condition.

Bill C.,

If the comment by AutismMom (now comment 138) was obviously a joke, then nobody would have taken it seriously, because it would have been obvious.

I have reread what AutismMom wrote. I appreciate sarcasm, but there is nothing about this that suggests anything other than an immature attack.

Given that the basis for her comments is a lack of understanding of logic, baseless attacks are no surprise.

It is so simple to sit up on your high horses with your healthy children by your sides and judge those who are seemingly so far below it is beyond your understanding. I feel so sorry for the ignorant.

I feel so sorry for the ignorant.

As to I, Mother Warrior. As do I.

By the way, if you skim through the 150 odd comments that precede your own, or indeed the comments on most any autism/vaccine related post on this blog, you may notice that a fair number of the participants here are either on the autism spectrum themselves or have children who are. Might want to check that before you start trotting out the high horses.

“I’ve walked many miles in your shoes and I finally found my way back to reality.”

Actually, you have not walked a mile in her shoes. Her child is different than yours. All our children and families have very different needs. Their child could be severely disabled or have multiple disabled children or even be disabled themselves, the mother could be single, poor, homeless or living with an abuser, or hundreds of other scenarios. Please give other parents the same respect to research and go through their ‘period of time’ as you put it, without accusing them of looking for pity. Other parents of autistic children tend to be the roughest on the new ones. I have seen this for 19yrs with my completely non-responsive daughter with autism.

A note to all…there are many parents out there that happen by this site trying to make sense of all the information out there. I dont know if some of you realize the damage that you do to getting the correct info out there. I have been reading this blog for a long time, and I know many of you are very educated in this area. I use this info when I am talking to other parents with autistic children. I am a scientist, albeit not in the medical field, and I can handle the insults and misunderstandings that are spewed about here. However, other parents can not. Some are new to autism and are actively seeking information for the first time. Some of the anti vax site references look just as credible as yours to them. The difference is…when they ask a question here, or post something they may have just read….they get attacked, called loonies, what have you. They may not have actually believed what they posted at first, but when they are attacked, they run back to the site that is ‘very friendly’ to them. I am not saying it is your job to educate all of them, and I know some of you are very tired of explaining the same thing over and over, but maybe, think before you post a reply so quickly, leave out all the name calling, or maybe just dont post at all that time. Most every parent I talk to has no problem with vaccines once it is explained to them like they are an actual person. Just a suggestion.

Rogue Medic,
Agreed, and yes, that is the same tone I would have used when discussing the need for vaccinations too. No need for nasty (reserve that for the few regulars here who go out of their way to promote false beliefs, like Sid). I am always for disease prevention. What I am not for, is chasing nervous parents over to the anti-vacc sites. Most of the parents have spoken to many doctors and are still looking for information on their own. I would prefer they dont get sucked in and made to feel ‘all comfy’ over at the anti-vacc sites. There is a tendency for them to believe the nice ‘experts’ when they are already distraught. I remember a time of desperately wanting someone to just listen and hopefully explain, why? Vaccines were not the issue back then, but I swear some parents have turned against vaccines just because it has been explained ‘so nicely’ to them as a probable cause. Unfortunately, then they propagate this mis-information. That is what I meant by how ranting and name calling can damage the message and facts that vaccines are necessary. The information here is great, it is the presentation and sensitivity that is lacking at times.

I find this site to be extremely interesting, although I have to agree with Bill C. on one point- the tone in which others speak/write to one another is often brutal. Why? Many parents are looking for the answers to raising a “healthy child.” Both pro-vax and anti-vax parents all want the same thing, healthy children. Don’t you all agree?

We need private, large scale, long-term studies done across many different areas to come up with more information. We need to look at the vaccinated population AND the unvaccinated. We need to take a long, hard look at our current vaccines, upcoming vaccines and possible cumulative effects vaccines could have on both children and adults alike. Is there a possibility that certain vaccines may interact poorly with one another or that certain triggers (environmental or otherwise) could exaggerate the adverse reactions some people have? We need people with money (lots of money) who do not stand to benefit from the vaccine program’s rise or fall to fund it.

I think parents want to “trust their doctors,” but so many people don’t feel like they can anymore. They worry that no doctor will truly advocate for their child to the same extent that they will. There is an overwhelming amount of people doing their own research and (I think) it can be a very difficult and overwhelming task.

You know Bill, you’re right about another thing… people do want to be treated “nice” and they want to be “respected.” For me, anyone who is spending the time to really look for the answers has earned, at the very least, my respect. So many others are just playing follow the leader. The only questions they are asking are, “What does my mom think? What is my friend doing? What is the trend now?”

Demand answers, look for proof, keep educating yourself…

I find this site to be extremely interesting, although I have to agree with Bill C. on one point- the tone in which others speak/write to one another is often brutal. Why? Many parents are looking for the answers to raising a “healthy child.” Both pro-vax and anti-vax parents all want the same thing, healthy children. Don’t you all agree?

We need private, large scale, long-term studies done across many different areas to come up with more information. We need to look at the vaccinated population AND the unvaccinated. We need to take a long, hard look at our current vaccines, upcoming vaccines and possible cumulative effects vaccines could have on both children and adults alike. Is there a possibility that certain vaccines may interact poorly with one another or that certain triggers (environmental or otherwise) could exaggerate the adverse reactions some people have? We need people with money (lots of money) who do not stand to benefit from the vaccine program’s rise or fall to fund it.

I think parents want to “trust their doctors,” but so many people don’t feel like they can anymore. They worry that no doctor will truly advocate for their child to the same extent that they will. There is an overwhelming amount of people doing their own research and (I think) it can be a very difficult and overwhelming task.

You know Bill, you’re right about another thing… people do want to be treated “nice” and they want to be “respected.” For me, anyone who is spending the time to really look for the answers has earned, at the very least, my respect. So many others are just playing follow the leader. The only questions they are asking are, “What does my mom think? What is my friend doing? What is the trend now?”

Demand answers, look for proof, keep educating yourself…

Chris: @165 Your reply was completely unnecessary and added nothing to the subject. However, you showcased your nasty attitude as usual. If people need information, they can not ‘stay away’ from the internet. But, they will probably stay away from YOU… It is unfortunate how your unhappiness can turn people away from this blog and the valuable discussions it contains.

Chris said stay away if you dont like the tone. Tone is her/his problem, not the internets’. Content is a completely different story.

Edward Jamison, grow a backbone… or log off. Your choice.

By the way, in addition to what ababa said, here is an except from an email I received a bit over five years ago:

… You can beleive what you want but please don’t stop people from researching vaccines and thimerisol before vaccinating their kids. People like you are dangerous. I just wish someone had educated me on the possible problems of vaccinations before i had my son vaccinated. He is now autistic.

I have a backbone, and do continue to attempt to explain with real data and evidence, despite concern trolls like yourself.

So, you have decided to handle JB Handley with kid gloves then? You must have a nice calming informative reply to this person: A typical example. I am sure that you have replied with all sorts of good information to convince “Sid Offit” he is an upstanding parent that only needs good information (which I have provided, but he apparently doesn’t like studies covering millions of children in several countries showing no link between any vaccine and autism).

Honestly I haven’t seen your replies to their posts on this blog. I look forward to you reasoning with “Sid Offit” and the one who constantly changes her ‘nym (and who has not posted anything but insults in over a year). Too bad Dawn Crim and John Best have bptj been banned, I would love to see how you reason with them.

Did you find a way to communicate with the man who called Dr. Paul Offit with the names of his children and where they go to school? Did you go to the Green Our Vaccines rally in Washington, DC and talk calmly to the people. Perhaps you should ask for a private educational conversation with McCarthy and Carrey, maybe she might actually let you get a work in edgewise as she spews off a constant stream of insults and profanity. Have you tried going to an autism conference like Ken Reibel (he got expelled for asking one question) and spreading your information calmly?

Good luck to you. I hope you succeed.

In the mean time, I’m tired the folks who want to bring the diseases back that can directly harm my now adult disabled child. I will continue go with the attitude of this blog and post facts whether you like my attitude or not. Because as it says up on the top of this page “A statement of fact cannot be insolent.” (also if you find that I have posted something that is not a fact, please feel free to correct me… I was quite open to correction, especially when someone tried to get me banned from the listserv I was on for my son’s disability because I simply pointed out that the MMR has never contained thimerosal).

Also if you don’t like my attitude, you should try this website that I have been following for over ten years (will mung URL since there is a limit of two): dub dub dub dot ratbags.com/rsoles/vaxliars1.htm .

Bravo nothing! Again, Non-helpful. Sid Offit loves being harrassed. Get it. He loves it! Because, then he gets to make you and your message look like the crazy one! You knew I was talking about parents looking for information. It is your attitude that pushes those people right into the arms of the likes of JB, Mc and Carrey to name a few. Would you like to guess how many people you might have inadvertently convinced to not vaccinate with your rantings. Just because you are ‘tired’ doesnt give you the right to harm the message. Someone gave a great example earlier. You do not seem capable of delivering fact without hostility. You do have the facts, but you completely ruin it with your attitude. The ones delivering the anti vaccine message are not going away any time soon, but you dont need to send any more people that way.

pD is correct that the bulk of the studies looking at vaccines and autism have concentrated on either the MMR vaccine or thimerosal. There is a reason for this.

If you look back in the dim mists of history – say, back to 1998 – there was a vocal group of people shouting that the MMR vaccine was causing the “autism epidemic”. This prompted a number of researchers to go looking through the available data to find such a connection. The data didn’t support the connection.

A few years later, many of the same people were screaming that it was thimerosal that was causing the “autism epidemic”. The public health folks thought that this might have a chance of being true and so had thimerosal removed from childhood vaccines.

Meanwhile (back at the lab), researchers looked through medical records looking for data to show a connection between thimerosal and autism. Years later, (research takes time), the data fail to show such a connection. Curiously, the removal of thimerosal from children’s vaccines failed to slow the rise in autism prevalence a bit.

It has only been a couple of years since the ex-MMR-shouters and the ex-thimerosal-screamers got the news that neither the MMR nor thimerosal were associated with autism and started shouting about “too many, too soon”, “toxins” and “immune stress”. Doubtless, many of these concerns are being researched as I write this and we will have the data in a few years.

However, I think it’s about time that we asked the question that hasn’t been asked:

Where’s the evidence connecting vaccines and autism?

The answer to that question is a bit embarrassing – for the “vaccines-cause-autism” groups. You see, all they ever had was a rise in autism diagnoses starting somewhere in the vicinity of 1985. This rise has continued – monotonically – to the present day.

So, if we are to believe that the “autism epidemic” is real (something I question a good deal) and that vaccines are the cause, then we have to find a steady increase in something connected to vaccines that started in the early 1980’s and has continued – steadily – to the present day.

You see the problem. Vaccines are introduced sporadically into the “recommended schedule” and should have produced some “shoulders” and “bumps” in the curve greater than what we see. Twenty years of smooth growth in autism prevalence is hard to explain with vaccines.

So, if someone has a workable hypothesis about how “too many, too soon” or “toxins” can explain a smooth, steady rise in autism prevalence, I, for one, would be eager to hear it. However, it is now (and always was) up to those who claim “vaccines-cause-autism” to produce data supporting their claims before we – as a society – divert scarce research resources to chasing yet another “maybe-might-be-could-be”.

They’ve had over fifteen years to do it.

Prometheus

Hi Chris –

Also, pD, in all of the epidemiology studies the children have either been fully vaccinated, or often not vaccinated (these are the studies of millions of children in countries like the USA, UK, Denmark, Japan, Finland, Canada and elsewhere).

I thought you were arguing that we have studies that involved any vaccination and autism. Did I misinterpret your statement? Can you show me a link to a study that evaluated partially vaccinated children where the partiality is comprised of anything different than the MMR? Why not just whip out the email you sent Sid Offit and post the links, and let Edward decide for himself?

Can you please point out a country, state, county or state that only gives children one, and only one vaccine? Where is the community that only gives the Hib, and nothing else? What town just gives the DTaP (which has been used in Japan longer than the USA)? What you all propose is not possible, and possibly not ethical (clusters of children not protected against a disease tend to get them, like the measles in a San Diego school and the Hib in Minnesota).

I’m sure that if there was a county, state, or community that did do such a thing and I offered them up, I’d be told that the other components to their lifestyle created such enormous confounders that studying them would provide data that would be impossible to analyze. Anyways, that’s what usually happens.

Truly, if the large studies show that there is no real correlation between children who are fully vaccinated, why would you need additional studies for single vaccine?

Fully vaccinated was one group, what comprised the other group(s)? Mostly vaccinated? Partially vaccinated? My apologies if I’m not getting your point here.

In any case, I wouldn’t argue for studies on particular vaccines so much as analyzing the results of vaccination itself. Permenant immunomodulatory, stress resopnse, and behavioral outcomes of an immune insult during pregnancy are becoming much clearer in the past few years; we have precious little evidence one way or the other to suggest that there are not similar critical post natal periods during which other pertubations could not result in unpredictable results.

In fact, in animal models we have a growing body of evidence that postnatal challenges to the immune system can have permenant effects on a variety of areas. For some examples, you might check out:

Postnatal programming of the innate immune response

or

Postnatal Inflammation Increases Seizure Susceptibility in Adult Rats

We are tinkering around with a very complicated, highly variable system that we don’t really understand all that well; especially in infants whose innate immune response has been shown to differ quite a bit from older infants. [see, for example, “Innate immunity of the human newborn is polarized toward a high ratio of IL-6/TNF-alpha production in vitro and in vivo.” or “Skewed pattern of Toll-like receptor 4-mediated cytokine production in human neonatal blood: Low LPS-induced IL-12p70 and high IL-10 persist throughout the first month of life.” (not linking due to filter concerns).

Just because vaccination has tangible and very real benifits doesn’t mean it might not be causing problems we can’t detect because we weren’t clever enough, or brave enough, to look. This discussion is always about autism because of what some parents say they have observed and these particular individuals tend to be very vocal; but it shouldn’t be. It ought to be about everyone.

– pD

“Just because vaccination has tangible and very real benifits doesn’t mean it might not be causing problems we can’t detect because we weren’t clever enough, or brave enough, to look. This discussion is always about autism because of what some parents say they have observed and these particular individuals tend to be very vocal; but it shouldn’t be. It ought to be about everyone.”

– pD

EXACTLY! to the entire post!

btw Chris “Come on, Edward! Show us how it is done!”
Ridiculous statement. I point this out because I agree with his sentiment on your attitude even if I might not agree with his vaccine recommendations. He said the blog had valuable information which made it unfortunate when you turn people off to reading it. He did not take credit for providing the info himself. In case you couldnt make the distinction, the CDC employs thousands of individuals to work with the people, but they dont get to run the CDC (have a friend there in human resources). I see a trend of how you misinterpret other’s responses. If you are truly worried for your family being ‘exposed’ to unvaccinated people..maybe you should change your ways. Social counseling could possibly help.

Gotta love the concern trolls.

I hope that you are mistaken with this prediction as well. I don’t think anyone would want you to be right on this one.

I hope that you are mistaken with this prediction as well. I don’t think anyone would want you to be right on this one.

I hope that you are mistaken with this prediction as well. I don’t think anyone would want you to be right on this one.

I hope that you are mistaken with this prediction as well. I don’t think anyone would want you to be right on this one.

Mae, it took you a year to write that? Why aren’t you posting on the page from today? Apparently Matt Lauer whiffed the ball, and Nancy Snyderman had the last word.