Data weeps: Does Brent Spiner have anti-vaccine proclivities?

There are plenty of intelligent actors and actresses. I was very impressed by Felicia Day’s video about galaxy collisions. Amanda Peet is pro-vaccination, Patrick Swayze condemned alternative cancer treatments while knowing he was dying of cancer. Unfortunately there are plenty of gullible actors as well

DATA NOES MOAR DEN CDC!!!!!!!!!

I’ll be interested to see what @BrentSpiner settles on. He was more pushing the education angle, it was just that his initial source seems rather a let-down. Hopefully his self education will show him that that way be dragons.

DaveC: Good point. The posts don’t carry his usual “less than serious” tone though. And the defensive responses just add weight to the idea that he’s now being serious.

god. find your self a life! whats with freedom of opinion? he just said educate yourself, i´m shure spiner thinks that people maybe are smart enough to educate themselfs not just in one way! I just don´t want a swine flue vaccine, too. like the other 88 % in germany.

I can’t see what can be wrong if somebody encourages people to think of their own, compare opinions and consider also statements out of the mass media mainstream.
And I find it especially fine if it is done by a person who has some impact, as we see in your panicked reaction. Even if Brent seems to be serious, indeed, he never claimed tho know the final truth (and even if: stupid who believed) and didn’t even take position for one side. What’s the matter??

And then: Indeed, he is an ACTOR. And entitled to have any opinion he wants, and entitled to say it. He never claimed to be an expert.

loggi, Sodano and Madove:

Did you even read this article before you commented?
Did you actually take in what Orac was saying?
Are you actually 3 separate people?

loggi: “I just don´t want a swine flue vaccine, too. like the other 88 % in germany.”

Hmm… I thought Germany was one country that was a little more rational on things like this.

Can you link to the source that lists this 88% figure? Or is it just like the 65% of all statistics out there that are made up on the spot?

Sandy, Madove, everyone who’s rsponding with insults rather than logic:

People are reacting because Jay Gordon is part of a movement that KILLS PEOPLE. Unvaccinated children can give diseases that wold otherwise have been wiped out to other children, especially when some ‘luminaries’ in the anti-vaccine silliness recommend sending these unvaxed hazards out in public with innocent bystanders. Some of these people even recommend that parents not disclose their children’s unvaccinated status to the individuals being so exposed.

Google pictures of people in iron lungs from polio. Read up on how people used to die of measles. Then compare that to the unproven claims, claims that even Jay Gordon admits there’s no evidence for, that childhood vaccines cause more harm than those epidemics of pain and death.

THERE IS NO PROOF THAT VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM. THERE IS A GREAT DEAL OF PROOF (genetic patterns, studies on brain structure) THAT VACCINES DO NOT CAUSE AUTISM.

I do not work for drug companies. I don’t have a degree or a medical practice, I don’t even have a college education. But I do have an interest in seeing children safe and healthy, and the anti-vax movement seems directly opposed to that interest. Jenny McCarthy wants your kids to get sick so that she can get sell her books and further her personal agenda, she has said that ‘some of these diseases may have to come back’ to improve her idea of public health. That’s not logical. That’s not even humane!

People keep saying that doctors and pharmacists are mindless, parroting monsters. From this everday person’s point of view, though, I think the anti-vax movement is projecting its own flaws on people acually trying to save lives. Thank you, Orac. And no thank you, Jenny McCarthy and Jay Gordon.

I have to say, for some reason it feels very disheartening to hear about Brent Spiner’s anti-vax tendencies. I get that he’s just an actor, not his character, but you can count me among his disappointed fans.

I find it very, very funny that the three clones seem to think that educating oneself means reading the unverified and unscientific ramblings outside the medical mainstream. There is plenty of debate that rages during every pandemic, but it’s within the battlefield of science-based medicine, which is far, far harsher to stupid ideas than the internet. And guess what? Your ideas are stupid.

There are hundreds, possibly thousands of people qualified to discuss the safety and efficacy of vaccines, but you are not among them and more importantly you are not smarter than them.

And, BTW, @Kid Sodano – You are clearly not educating yourself correctly if you think that antibiotics have an effect on viruses. Honestly, some people are just too goddamn dumb even for the internet.

P.S. Yes, I know my insolence was not respectful, but when someone brings some evidence to the table, then they get respect.

@bruce: yes of cause.. we are the same.. oh my god…
@julian: “Fine. Can we have yours?” thats a dump comment, don´t you think?

I work for a drug company and I know that ther are adverse effects that not be known yet! Also it is not be known what it can be exacly ! And I only talk of the swine flue vaccine, not of all vaccine. But also I remember why the Poli-Vaccine is not be used anymore! But was many years!
some people are afraid of that flue-vaccine and they got they´re right to educate and decide for themselfes. The panic is caused on the fact that it is flue time now, but we do not know enough about that special flue to outlook exactly how the behavior of it will be.

@Gold: I´ve got Links if you have someone to translate.
but I don´t know if I understand you right. Of course its a statistic thing… they do not ask hole germany^^ but it is the standard.

Who gives a rat’s ass about what Brent Spiner thinks?

Am I being too prosaic if I simply make the point that, so far, 108 people have died from swine flu in the UK?

That’s why the government here is is rolling out the vaccine as a matter of urgency – it will save lives.

It’s something to mention that Brent Spiner could react poorly to his role of ‘Data’ being brought up so much. Wil Wheaton, for instance, is trying very hard to construct a career around something other than being ‘Wesley Crusher’. Brent Spiner might be more willing to embrace the woo partly because it breaks the way he’s been typecast as a scientific, cold machine from his time on ‘Star Trek’.

Wow. Do people Google for Spiner’s name and go trolling, or something?

All you sudden Spiner trolls: It’s *extremely* relevant to talk about what celebrities are saying about vaccines, because the US (and the UK, too, I guess, though I haven’t lived there for a while) is absolutely *gaga* about the opinions of celebrities, valuing them far more than the opinions and information they get from scientists. When celebrities take foolish positions, people follow because they admire the celebrity, and erroneously assume that famous=smart. When people can die as a result, it becomes a very serious issue (Damn your black heart Jenny McCarthy!).

Look at the damage Oprah and Suzanne Sommers have done and tell me that it’s stupid to worry about what celebrities say.

The “Commander Data” character was one of the dumbest characters ever to appear in Star Trek.
I know Star Trek feels an overwhelming need to include a cast member who plays the ‘dumb human’ surrogate to ask questions on our behalf: Spock was “it” in TOS, Data in TNG, Seven of Nine became “it” in STV, they again went with a Vulcan in “Enterprise” in the form of T’Pol, but really, do these surrogates need to be so pedantic, blind and dumb that they really don’t honestly represent the Star Trek viewership at all? Seriously? Or are Star Trek viewers very nearly as dumb as their surrogates imply?

I´m sorry I mean that there are adverse effects but we don´t know witch exactly . It was not enough time to test it in a long run.
http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/medizin/0,1518,656151,00.html
http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/0,1518,655762,00.html
first one got tree parts.
and I have to say that I´m not agree with all of it, but in most scientific aspects.

http://www.heute.de/ZDFheute/inhalt/12/0,3672,7912076,00.html
http://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/70037/umfrage/impfung-gegen-schweinegrippe/
at home I´ve got more. I´m at work, so I don´t have the time to google the links. but maybe thats enough to understand that the people are not shure about that over here.
The links are from the media over here, I´ve got “official” too, if you want so.

till last month died ca. 3000 people worldwide on A/H1N1 thats official. and only in germnany died ca. 15.000 / Year on the normal Influenza…

“1 death in a multi-morbid patient” yeah.. we have tree, but 2 of them “count”. one have got previous diseases.

“”not entirely,” which implies that he is mostly anti-vaccine.” And there we go again with YOUR opinion!

loggi’s numbers seem, sadly, not to be that far off the point. Several German articles report that two thirds plan not to vaccinate. Interestingly, this insurance company found that about one quarter of their customers with “Abitur” or “Realschulabschluss” (two forms of school diploma; the first a prerequisite for attending university) plan to get vaccinated, as opposed to 55% of those “ohne Schulabschluss” (drop-outs).

Dear Mr. Spiner —

If you are truly interested in “educating yourself”, then you should educate yourself about one simple fact and its meaning:

The simple fact: Jay Gordon repeatedly claims that his own personal clinical experience is more significant and revealing of scientific truth than actual scientific studies which may well involve the rigorously studied clinical experiences of practitioners in the tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, even millions.

The meaning: Jay Gordon has no clue about science. If you wanted to find out how many people in the greater Los Angeles area had heard yet about the new TNG movie, would you conduct a survey and ask hundreds of randomly selected Los Angelenos whether they were aware such a movie was about to open? Or would you base all your decisions on the word of one film executive who said “Well, I heard about it right away and my personal experience is more important than any old survey”?

Part of “educating yourself,” Mr. Spiner, is learning that some of the people who claim they can give you greater knowledge only think they have greater knowledge. I will be the first to admit, Jay Gordon really sounds like he knows what he’s talking about. He really knows how to look like he has a consistent, well-thought-out position based on the facts.

But it’s not consistent. It’s not well-thought-out. And it’s not based on the facts.

I think I got an anti-vax bingo just from post 11.

Re Data as Sherlock Holmes: Remember, AC Doyle believed seances were real and other such nonsense. Few people actually live up to their reputations.

‘Educate yourself’ is being used by anti-vaxxers in the same way as ‘balance.’ It sounds reasonable, who could object to finding out the facts for themselves? Except when people don’t know enough to evaluate either the sources or the information for themselves, then a little knowledge is a very dangerous thing.
Unfortunately people DO associate Spiner with Data – that’s how our brains work. So when he suggests something that sounds reasonable people will listen, and that’s why it needs to be pointed out how wrong he is in this case.

That’s an awfully nice picture of Brent Spiner acting the role of Data acting the role of Sherlock Holmes. Surely I can’t be the only one who remembers that Arthur Conan Doyle believed in fairies, while Holmes once said, “No ghosts need apply.” Writers and actors are not the characters they create, however noble we fans may find those characters. This is a bit like being disappointed to learn that Picasso’s eyes weren’t both on one side of his face.

Dr. Jay has no evidence that vaccines cause autism or are anywhere as close to risky as going without is, and he has admitted as such. Indeed, he keeps telling us that his personal clinical experience trumps epidemiology and science. Well, he doesn’t quite tell us that

Oh but he DOES. He has said it straight out that his experience trumps any scientific studies. Although it’s kind of confusing, because he has also decreed that his approach of using his experience is actually a better way of doing science than using systematically controlled studies, so it’s not clear what he meant when he said that his experience is more important than science.

This is a bit like being disappointed to learn that Picasso’s eyes weren’t both on one side of his face.

THEY WEREN’T?!!

From what I’ve heard, Picasso was a jerk too. Doesn’t change his talent though. And Spiner’s gullibity on vaccination doesn’t change his acting.

You block the people who got a other opinion? YEAH! that shows how shure you are on this block! The links that I send you are out of two named papers over here! Just to show why the public in Germany is afraid of this vaccination, because some people was interessted. Thats not a Pro or Contra, that the people don´t know what to do is a fact over here and only a information! But you seemed not interested neither in other opinions nor in the fears of people in other nation. That shows a lot!
And of course you get your own links wrong! ONLY 25% with abi are WILLING to get a vaccination!! that´s the “high ones” if you want so. And as lower the college education goes the people are more WILLING to get a vatioccinn. Thant´s against your Opinion not in favour of it!!
Sorry. This Block is a shame cuz it only reflected the opinion that YOU like. Thats a waste of time for all smart beeings!

@loggi

Umm…if you included more than one link in your post, it went into moderation automatically. Part of an automatic spam filter. Your post should appear once Orac has a moment to review it. Patience.

Don’t Green Our Vaccines, Maroon Our Whackaloons instead.

It’s the march of the Brent Break Lemmings! Is the Commander in on this save-Spiner-at-all-cost comment fest?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120370/

Someone please post a link to the Evil Kirk SNL skit.

If you put Lt Cmd Data in a, y’know, bomb, and threw the bomb at your neighbor for letting his dog poop in your yard literally, the bomb would explode.

Brent Spiner’s reference to John Edwards makes me wonder if he’s attempting to pull the non-fundie equivalent of a Poe on us.

Because if he also thinks psychics are legitimate, I think we can safely call him a whackaloon.

The only thing that alchemy was useful for was it’s glassware.

I enjoy reading stuff about the old guys, though. Pericelsus is probably my favorite. I’ve related this story before. Doctors are actually very familiar with Pericelsus because he is the one credited with the concept, “The dose makes the poison,” talking about how everything will kill you if you take too much.

If you look up Pericelsus on Wikipedia, you read that he died of “natural causes” at age 49. I have an old source (1880s) that suggests otherwise. See, Pericelsus was among those alchemists who thought they had found the elixer of life in alcohol, and it appears that the guy who is famous for the “dose makes the poison” concept actually drank himself to an early death!

Oh that crazy Bombastus!

Katharine,

Hover over the name. You’ll see that titmice are funny.

I see.

Must ingest more caffeine. 😀

But, Dr. Jay, my post is actually at least as much about you as it is about Brent Spiner. You’re also being disingenuous, as it was quite clear that my invocation of Data was a literary device (if you can call anything on this blog “literary”) to make my point.

I do love “The Big Bang Theory,” though.

I do love “The Big Bang Theory,” though.

I like it as a show fine. As a friend of mine has said, it reminds me of how we were in college.

But that is also my problem with it. They act like college _students_, not working adults. In particular, for young faculty, who are supposedly brilliant go-getters, they don’t work very much, and spend way too much time doing stuff like hanging out at comic book stores.

Brent Spiner’s comment that Data is a fictional character is rather odd.

Consider the CD he put out:
http://www.amazon.com/Yellow-Eyes-Back-Brent-Spiner/dp/B00000DPEY

Ol’ Yellow Eyes is Back.

I guess referring to his former character is OK when he does it to promote his CD, but not OK when you do it.

I always love the “vaccines are just to make money for Big Pharma” argument.

The H1N1 influenza seems to put lots of kids, young adults and pregnant women on respiratory support (the weekly plots here are scary because the slope is still positive!). Having had a kid requiring a milder form of respiratory support (mostly a blow-by tube with extra oxygen, and some meds to help breathe during serious bouts of croup) I know that stuff costs a whole lot more than a vaccine.

It is also my understanding that the anti-virals that are given early in cases of influenza infections also cost quite a bit.

So please, someone explain to me how preventing disease through vaccination makes more money for pharma companies. Because that really baffles me.

FF:

thank you brent, that shows backbones.. more than this blog do. don´t ever chance, you rock!

Gotta love the celebrity worship! Actually, that does not show “backbone”, it is a weasel comment. Freedom of speech is fine, but one should not use it to spread misinformation.

A word of advice to the celebrity fankids: the job of someone who has acted on a TV show is to entertain you for just the period you are watching them… outside of that, they are best ignored. Just as you would not go to a lawyer for medical advice, do not go to an actor for medical advice.

So please, someone explain to me how preventing disease through vaccination makes more money for pharma companies. Because that really baffles me.

They don’t. Vaccines are money losers for the most part. Even the “expensive” ones like HPV and hep B aren’t big money makers. Compare $300 x 1 or even x 3 to $200/pill for a chemotherapeutic agent that someone who contracts cancer has to take for the rest of their life…if the conspiracy theorists had any sense they’d be complaining about how Big Pharma suppresses vaccine research so that they can make money on less effective and less elegant cures.

@Pablo

This is a bit off-topic, but with regards to how the characters in Big Bang Theory act … well, it seems to be a social phenomenon that “adolescence” is lasting much later into adulthood than in previous generations. I wish I had the link to support this, but there was a sociological review done on the trend of “hip” being set by the “middle age” crowd, as opposed to the teen/twenty-something crowd of earlier eras.

Movies and video games are being heavily marketed towards adults as much as to kids. The tween YA novels are HUGE favorites of adults well into their 40s.

And for completely unscientific anecdotal data, the characters act pretty much like exaggerated versions of my own friends, who are in their 30s and 40s. Of course, it’s a sitcom, so, by definition, they are caricatures and not accurate portrayals.

But, also being a sitcom, the show would be incredibly boring if we focused any time on their daily lives while at work. The humor comes from the interaction between the characters, which happens off the clock. And certainly all of my geek friends spend an inordinate amount of time while not at work at comic book shops, movie theatres, restaurants, playing video games, and generally just geeking out.

Sorry to hijack the thread. The original topic was interesting, but everyone was already saying what I wanted to say, which is that it’s Spiner’s popularity that makes the expression of his woo a topic of concern. Of course he’s allowed to believe whatever he wants to believe, but his beliefs happen to be wrong and his celebrity status spreads his incorrect beliefs much faster than all the correction made by respectable and knowledgeable scientists can provide.

“Educate yourself” does not mean what it seems to mean when the only source you provide to educate someone with is a known quack and you publicly declare your support for him. Just like “teach the controversy” is BS when there IS no actual controversy in scientific circles. Not all ideas and opinions deserve equal time. Some are just wrong and people with celebrity status have some responsibility to bear when they publicly declare support for ideas that affect the public health.

“Get a life!” responses really sicken me. It’s like a descent into cartoon villainy: “Your compassion makes you weak!”

I was a pediatric RN for many years and alarmed at the age and amount of vaccines given to kids.

I have given NEWBORNS vaccinations in their FIRST HOURS OF LIFE. You people think this is acceptable? That this should not be questioned?

Medical science has proven that infants do not have an immune response, hence the need for breastmilk. Why are we giving these vaccines then? Answer that one.

Brent Spiner said to “be informed.” He did not advise anyone to not get vaccinated.

Jenny McCarthy may be wrong about the link between vaccines/autism but she’s raising the issue and that’s the point, that we question the use of vaccines.

Chris: “So please, someone explain to me how preventing disease through vaccination makes more money for pharma companies. Because that really baffles me.”

Chris, you just don’t understand how Big Pharma operates. Aside from their making tons of money on vaccines (which explains why so many companies have gone out of the vaccine business in recent decades), the vaccines don’t work and besides are jammed full of aluminum, antifreeze, aborted fetus parts, monkey pus* and (as an alert poster in this thread pointed out) DEAD VIRUSES, which depress our immune function and make us sicker, and ever more dependent on all those Big Pharma drugs, which will kill us unless (like Suzanne Somers) we quickly detox them from our systems. Those who avoid the vaccines are in danger of being disappeared into FEMA detention camps (Health Ranger Mike Adams’ warnings along these lines are worth sober consideration) and treated with concentrated electromagnetic pulse radiation and chemtrails until they are “re-educated” into Obama worshipers.

It’s still not to late to educate yourself on the diabolical schemes currently underfoot.
And do follow Dr. Jay – for he is truly the Pied Piper of the Antivax movement.

*As Peter Bowditch says, we must never fail to mention the monkey pus.

I’ll go out on a limb here and say that not only was Tawny never a pediatric RN, but she hasn’t even opened a book on pediatrics.

You do see what Dr. Jay is doing, right? He’s basically saying Orac and his regular readers (namely Prometheus, Pablo, etc.) are a bunch of geeks, and therefore wrong.

It’s an ad hominem abusive type, perhaps circumstantial.

Excuse me, Mariane? Over the years I’ve saved many people’s lives, in and out of the hospital. How about you?

But one doesn’t have to be a nurse to question the use of vaccines.

I want someone who thinks we shouldn’t question giving all these vaccines to answer this: What is the exact effect of all the various vaccines and their adjuvants on the human body?

Chris, the point of my asking it is that the question cannot be answered.

No one knows exactly what these vaccines and their adjuvants are doing to the body. That’s not an opinion.

DEAD VIRUSES, which depress our immune function

First thought on reading that…is our immune system depressed because it sees the poor, innocent virus lying there dead or is it just disappointed because the virus is dead and therefore not invading cells and reproducing and so the immune system doesn’t have as many targets as it would like? Second thought involved the use of prozac as an adjuvant and it went even further downhill from there.

No one knows exactly what these vaccines and their adjuvants are doing to the body. That’s not an opinion.

I hate to burst your bubble but no one knows exactly what effects yodeling has on the body.

What is the exact effect of all the various vaccines and their adjuvants on the human body?

They stimulate the production of antibodies against various diseases, preventing the contracting of those diseases upon exposure. Doesn’t seem like a bad idea to me.

Medical science has proven that infants do not have an immune response, hence the need for breastmilk.

Wow! Two completely incorrect statements of fact in one sentence!

1) Unless premature, Human babies are born with a functioning immune system that has been bolstered with antibodies passed through the placenta. The data from vaccination shows that babies do indeed produce an active immune response when exposed to antigens. While they don’t have the complete immune response at birth, vaccines are designed to work with the type of response the baby’s do have.

2) Although breast milk contains antibodies, the ones absorbed by the baby’s intestine are the ones used by the mucus system and help ward off infections of the eye, nose, lung, and digestive system. They do not absorb the antibodies to fight off things like measles mumps and rubella from breast milk.

@Tawny

Vaccines with and without adjuvants produce immune responses so that the individual does not suffer from infection of the disease being prevented. They also can have some uncommon side effects, such as redness, pain or itching at the injection site, as well as some rare effects like fever or diarrhea. Extremely rarely, more serious effects can occur.

In short, they save lives with a small to remote chance of a mild adverse reaction and an even smaller chance of something more serious (a risk still less than the risk of serious complications from the prevented disease).

Who knows this? The vaccine manufacturers, the FDA, doctors and anyone that bothers to read the package inserts for the vaccines.

Jay sez, or at least insinuates: “You’re a nerd, so you’re wrong.”

This putz can’t even do logical fallacies well. Nerds are stereotypically plenty of things, but “wrong” usually isn’t high on the list.

We’re getting off topic here. I’m not saying to never get vaccinated, we should QUESTION all the vaccines given.

We should QUESTION whether or not the vaccines cause problems which are worse than what is being vaccinated against.

Nurses are first and foremost advocates for our patients.

We are supposed to question giving medications and vaccines and not blindly give them because “the doctor ordered” it.

That is our job.

*I don’t know what you’re objecting to in all that.*

thanks. I don´t know as well. Thats the opinion of so many medical scientist.
If you got the good things and the bad you can build your desicion for your own needs. Nobody told something else.
there is ne plus ultra. that is what Spiner said yesterday and what do you blame him for? For giving the advice to read both sides of the book?

i hear the that BOTH Big Pharma AND Big Fooda (the food industry) put sodium chloride into food!!!! talk about TOXINS!!!!!!!

here is what the MSDS says about sodium:
“Very hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant). Hazardous in case of skin contact
(permeator), of ingestion, of inhalation.”

here is what the MSDS says about chlorine:
“Corrosive and irritating to the eyes, skin and mucous membranes. Inhalation may result in chemical
pneumonitis and pulmonary edema. Nonflammable. Oxidizer, may explode or accelerate combustion
if contacting reducing agents.”

are these chemicals you want Big Pharma AND Big Fooda putting into your bodies!!!!! they cause burns and explosions and pulmonary edema!!!!!! OH MY!!!

don’t even get me started on dihydrogen monoxide!!! that stuff is EVERYWHERE!!!!!!

ahhhh!!!! ahhhhhh!!!!!! AHHHHAHHHHHHHAHHAHAHHHA!!!!!

i gotta go back to googling to uncover these INSIDIOUS plots!!!!!

Tawny, you didn’t even address our statements.

I can’t possibly address all the statements.

@ESPness

anecdote ≠ evidence

A rather cranky and arrogant computer once told me:

…anecdotal evidence is the weakest form of EVIDENCE.
————————-

@Dangerous Bacon
In my community we have people waiting patiently on long lines and in bad weather to take advantage of the limited supplies of H1N1 vaccine. They’ve educated themselves about the risks this influenza strain poses, especially to children, younger adults and pregnant women.

To which H.L. Mencken responds:

No one in this world has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the American people.

——————————————-

@Dianne
Vaccines are money losers for the most part. Even the “expensive” ones like HPV and hep B aren’t big money makers.

Yes that’s true but not really:

http://www.prlog.org/10232681-the-worldwide-market-for-vaccines-to-reach-us507-billion-in-2013-forecasts-new-report.html
The Worldwide Market for Vaccines to reach US$50.7 billion in 2013, forecasts New Report

Prevnar (Wyeth): 2008 sales of US$2.7 billion (€1.9 billion);

Gardasil (Merck): 2008 sales of US$1.4 billion (€959 million), sales estimated at US$2.3 billion (€1.6 billion) when counting Gardasil sales by Merck, Sanofi Pasteur MSD, and CSL;

ProQuad/M-M-R II/Varivax (Merck): 2008 sales of US$1.3 billion (€867 million);

Infanrix/Pediarix (GlaxoSmithKline): 2008 sales of US$1.3 billion (€859 million);

WIKI says:

A blockbuster drug is a drug generating more than $1 billion of revenue for its owner each year.

Tawny, “QUESTION” as much as you like. The ANSWER is that there has been an enormous amount of research done which has enabled us to determine that the benefit of vaccination far outweighs any of the risks. So unless your magical nurse powers invalidate that work, why don’t you go change a bedpan and let the grownups talk?

Tawny (showing where she is getting her information, and it certainly is not from real medical literature):

Adjuvants include Formaldehyde, aluminum. thimerosol (mercury)and squalene.

BZzzzzzzzzt! Wrong. I’m sorry my sentence “Remember the only adjuvant approved in the USA is the same stuff used in making pickles.” was unclear. The only adjuvant approved in the USA is alum.

You are clearly showing that you little understanding of biology and physiology when you fail to remember that both formaldehyde and squalene are made in your body (and you may not live for very long if your liver stops making squalene).

You shouted earlier:

We should QUESTION whether or not the vaccines cause problems which are worse than what is being vaccinated against.

Except you fail to understand that those questions have been posed, and there are decades of real research answering those questions. All you have to do is look at reliable sources, and actually listen to all these people responding to you with actual answers.

I just went to PubMed (which is now very slow with its new web design, sigh), plugged vaccines into the search window and got: Results: 1 to 20 of 150836

Thimerisol may not be used any more but it was used in the vaccines I received.

Squalene is considered to be harmful:

A study conducted at Tulane Medical School and published in the February 2000 issue of Experimental Molecular Pathology included these statistics:

“The substantial majority (95%) of overtly ill deployed Gulf War Syndrome patients had antibodies to squalene. All (100%) GWS patients immunized for service in Desert Shield/Desert Storm who did not deploy, but had the same signs and symptoms as those who did deploy, had antibodies to squalene.

In contrast, none of the deployed Persian Gulf veterans not showing signs and symptoms of GWS have antibodies to squalene. Neither patients with idiopathic autoimmune disease nor healthy controls had detectable serum antibodies to squalene. The majority of symptomatic GWS patients had serum antibodies to squalene.”

It means: the soldiers who had Gulf War Syndrome also had antibodies to squalene, which was used as the adjuvant in the Anthrax vaccine. (A vaccine the Persion Gulf vets didn’t get.)

Hypocee, I said “exact effect” not one of the effects.

As I said, we don’t know the “exact effect” of yodeling.

The question is a red herring, unnecessary to the assessment of safety and efficacy.

A hero of mine is a surgeon who not only saved my father’s life, but amazingly has made house calls to follow his progress. He once laughed mockingly at my request for probiotics when my father was having massive doses of antibiotics. His own elderly parents drink kefir and he’s certain it’s woo. (He did order the probiotics, though…)
Woo, my hiney.

Get with the program. This 2x Nobel Prizewinning man said something important nearly a century ago that you are still pooing on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Ilyich_Mechnikov

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VPN-4TF2J81-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1070073134&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=bc48824f6212250571c8c13cf480c50a

http://www.curingdeath.com/research/Unusual_bacteria_help_balance_the_immune_system_in_mice.asp

Adjuvants include Formaldehyde, aluminum. thimerosol (mercury)and squalene.

Thimerosol is not an adjuvant and never has been. It is a preservative. As is formaldehyde. I think tawny may be repeating anti-vax talking points from somewhere without understanding what they’re supposed to mean.

I used the word adjuvant, technically incorrect.

Regardless, the mercuy was/is still in the vaccines.

Once again, I’M NOT ANTI-VAX.

I’m PRO QUESTIONING. What about that can’t you understand?

I’m PRO QUESTIONING. What about that can’t you understand?

Why someone who’s supposedly “pro questioning” would accept the claims of anti-vaxxers so uncritically.

Tawny, terrified of teh ebil chemikuls:

Squalene is considered to be harmful

Hey, Tawny, your own liver is producing squalene RIGHT NOW! Oh, the HORROR! Quick, save yourself, cut it out!

Sid Offit, go die in a fucking fire. You don’t even give a damn about a decrease in RA? What kind of sick bastard openly celebrates disease like you do? You want people to suffer and die because you’re a nutcase who hates science and medicine. You are a disgrace to the human race. Fuck off.

Tawny, you should not google for medical information , and do not get your medical information from chiropractors. It is obvious you have never had any real medical training, and you have no clue what constitutes research (like the existence of PubMed).

Try this:
Development and application of an analytical method for the determination of squalene in formulations of anthrax vaccine adsorbed.:

We have applied this method to 17 lots of Anthrax Vaccine Adsorbed administered to members of the US Armed Forces. No squalene has been detected in any lot. The results of these analyses provide direct evidence for the absence of squalene as an ingredient or a manufacturing contaminant in Anthrax Vaccine Adsorbed.

and
Enhancement of an analytical method for the determination of squalene in anthrax vaccine adsorbed formulations.:

In 43 bottles of 37 lots, no squalene was detected within a detection limit of 1ng/0.5ml dose (2 parts-per-billion). One lot, FAV008, was found to contain trace amounts of squalene at 7, 9, and 1microgl(-1), levels considerably below normal human plasma levels (290microgl(-1)). The overall results of this investigation provide direct evidence for the absence of squalene in nearly all of anthrax vaccine preparations tested.

The studies were used in a ScienceBasedMedicine blog post by pediatrician Dr. Joseph Albietz, titled A Defense of Childhood Influenza Vaccination and Squalene-Containing Adjuvants; Joseph Mercola’s “Dirty Little Secret” (I’d give the link, but I am out of URLs).

A suggestion for the people complaining about trace amounts of squalene: Either rip out your liver for producing it or shut up.

@cervantes

did you even bother to go to and read either the page chris (#111) linked or the page I linked (#117)?

If you did, and you are unable to see the difference between the previous 3 years and this year, then I don’t know what to tell you. It’s not even nuanced. The graph on page 7 of the PDF I linked is even color coded to make it painfully obvious.

I’ll also note that you completely ignored the other half of what was said about fatality rates and number of infections. I’m sure this was totally an innocent oversight.

Orac, why moderate? WHo is spamming this thread? TAwny?

Diane, PLEASE, PLEASE produce evidence that the incidence of RA is going down in children and young adults where squalene-based adjuvants are being utilized in vaccines. Since the population studies cited for all of this was done in people OVER 65, I think there si just a wee bit of confounding going on, no? Even an idiot like me knows that the incidence of people newly diagnosed, for the first time, with Rhematoid Arthritis in the 65 and over crew, is a little dubious. But perhaps you are correct- please direct me to the info.

I’m PRO QUESTIONING. What about that can’t you understand?

The part where you seem to be ANTI ANSWERS. Those questions have been and are being asked and have, for the most part, been answered! Why do you reject those answers without cause? Why do you ignore the vast majority of the data and focus on the ravings of a few quacks?

Regardless, the mercuy was/is still in the vaccines.

Explain why removal of 98% of thimerosal from the pediatric schedule produced no results whatsoever.

Gah “and don’t die” should be “and don’t lie”

DoctrinalFairness @ #148:

Orac, why moderate? WHo is spamming this thread? TAwny?

I think some amount of moderation is automatic, such as the two-link rule (which has resulted in such amusing screams of censorship and conspiracy from the trolls).

I don’t know exactly what gets sent to moderation, I’ve got a post waiting because I got sick of sid’s bullshit lies, wanting people to die and treating the idea of a reduction in a debilitating disease some of my loved ones suffer from as a snooze-fest, so I told the fucker off. Obviously I didn’t use the kindest of language.

@bronze dog:

i hear they put sodium AND chlorine into table salt!!!!!!

TEH TOXINS!!!!

At a less combustible stage of the discussion I threw in the current number of deaths in the UK from swine flu.

I was, however, out of date.

The number of people in UK who’ve died from swine flu is in fact 149. There’s also something like six hundred people in intensive care beds suffering from the disease.

Just thought some real-life grounding might help your weird anti-vaxers.

No, actually, it ISN’T. It was taken out of virtually all of them, only the flu shot still has any, and that’s optional.

To elaborate, thimerosal is used as a preservative in multi-dose vials of influenza vaccine in the US, because medical staff don’t want to give you a staph infection the next time you get a vaccine. (Basically, although they don’t reuse needles, there’s no way to keep the membrane on the top of the vial totally sterile, so each needle entering it will inevitably push some bacteria in. The thimerosal kills them.)

So if you have a personal objection to thimerosal, you do have options. There is a preservative-free version, packaged in single-dose shots so that preservatives are not needed (because they can be kept sterile). There’s also FluMist, the nasal flu vaccine, which, because it is a live attenuated virus vaccine, cannot contain preservatives. Unfortuantely, since it contains live virus, you have to be healthy* and between the ages of 2 and 50. (Manufacturer says 2 and 65, but it has not been approved by the FDA for anyone over 50.)

*”Healthy” meaning “not in an influenza risk category or having a depressed immune system”; I have asthma, so I cannot use FluMist. Pregnant women are also barred from FluMist.

Fair enough, DF. Have a review article with quite a lot of references. One thing I would point out is that the incidence of juvenile RA is cyclic in most studies with peaks at various times that correspond almost not at all to changes in the vaccination schedule. In several studies, the overall JRA incidence is decreasing.

It is, I suppose, possible that vaccination is increasing the rate of JRA and RA at the same time as some other, unknown factor is decreasing it, but there’s really no evidence for that.

Tawny, what do you think SCIENTIFIC study of these things is? It is questioning. It does not serve anybody any good injecting a large population with something where the risks outweigh the benefits. Do you honestly believe if there were any indication that these things were not safer than the disease, they would be produced?

Let me try and illustrate this way. If these vaccines are dangerous well that totally screws all of these corps that are apparently trying to make money off of us by injecting us with poison. How is it beneficial for them to make money if we are a society of vaccine injured people? They want us healthy not injured or suffering from poisonous side effects so that we can be productive members of society and you know live and make money and sustain the economy and buy their other things. It is not in their best interest to produce something like if it will do more harm than good. It is in their best interest to keep us alive and healthy in order to make money off of us in other ways.

I think one of the most ridiculous comments I have read in the past 24 hours is this “I would rather get the swine flu and die then allow “them” to inject me with something they claim is a vaccine.” Seriously? This is the type of crap being told to investigate and question produces. There is no conspiracy. They are not poisoning us. We are useless to them and cannot be productive members of society if are a vaccine injured society.

These companies have asked the same questions. That is why they are constantly trying to find better and safer ways of producing these vaccines. That is why there are handy dandy inserts in the vaccine boxes that list possible side-effects etc. Because they have asked the questions and they disclose what is already known. And yes, mistakes have been made in the past. Nobody is denying that either. That is how science advances in order to produce better and safer medications.

Sid, there’s a blue bit in the post for a reason. Follow it. Then go to the full text (I linked to the abstract because full text links can be dodgy.) Read it, read the references and you’ll get an answer to your question.

Wow. Awesome post. You had me at data… Thanks.

Dianne @ #170:

Sid, there’s a blue bit in the post for a reason. Follow it. Then go to the full text (I linked to the abstract because full text links can be dodgy.) Read it, read the references and you’ll get an answer to your question.

Actually, your link in post # 131 appears to be broken. The one in #166 works fine though.

And we both know Sid would never dare actually READ anything that might interfere with his desire to watch more people suffer and die.

@#173 Pablo

I just say fuck it and eat the entire shark liver…while it’s still alive. Keeps me young and my skin smooth.

Now, does Tawny’s refusal to cut out her own liver for producing teh ebil toxin squalene indicate that she might have enough functioning brain cells to someday be able to comprehend the concept of “dose response”? Or is this standard compartmentalization among the voodoo healthcare crowd?

Probably more of the same magical thinking. There is no concept of “dose response” in sympathetic magic that I know of. There certainly isn’t any concept of “chemically identical”, so I don’t see why that would phase her either.

@ Antaeus Feldspar:

But merely asking the questions isn’t enough. There is also a responsibility to accept the answers and act accordingly. And that is where the non-science-based community fails, miserably, over and over. When they get answers that they don’t want to hear, they pretend they didn’t hear it.

Most humanoids have the potential to be irrational. Perhaps you should attempt to access that part of your phyche.

@ Doctrinalfairness:

Mike, Jules, soo the answer is “All Vaccines are Good”? No matter who is harmed? My daughter needs vaccines, too. Just not ones with squalene.

Would you choose one life over one thousand, sir?

phantomreader42 @ #151:

I think you unintentially omitted
“If it ducks like a quack”….

Dotrinal

There actually is a list of who should not be getting them. And I believe I actually already spoke to that. Please do not pick and choose what parts of my responses you choose to reply to. It has already been spoken to that not every one needs an anthrax vaccine as an example. Another example is Rabies vaccine, that is only given if exposed. There are many other examples. But there is a damn good reason why we have the recommended list of vaccines that we do.

Not getting vaccinated does more harm than vaccination does. And there has even been a study done on the serious damage the antivaxx movement has done to public health. And this study was not done by a drug company, government, CDC, WHO, whomever you want to lump into the group of “them.” Antivaxx is killing people, plain and simple.

Let me ask all of you people who are telling us to question this. Do you question, as an example, when somebody tells you to drink cranberry juice for a bladder infection? Do you question when somebody tells you to drink cranberry juice regularly if you are prone to UTIs? Do you ever pass on such advice instead of telling the person to talk to their doctor? Do you know how many people you have possibly put into a severe medical situation because of such advice? You say to question but you are only questioning what is convenient to you because you have a specific agenda.

I question everything not just the things I am told to question. And thankfully I questioned all of these so called safe treatments because they are natural or I would have suffered from a stroke long before I did when I was 30.

Did you know that things such as garlic, cranberries, green leafy veggie are high in vitamin K. Did you know those with certain medical conditions and those who are even on aspirin therapy should avoid vitamin K as it is a blod clotter and ingesting it is potentially dangerous?

Some how I really doubt it because you only question what the wingnuts tell you to and not everything as science does.

You know what, I am also a parent. So are many other of us “science” people. I have children that live with some pretty disorders that from time to time can be very disabling (ADHD and ASD). And I can tell you vaccines sure as shit did not screw up my children. I can also tell you vaccines are not responsible for my autoimmune disorders. Now my anecdotes are not evidence and I would never in a million years be misguided enough to tell people what to do based on my personal experiences. But I will tell people to vaccinate based on my own studying on this subject very very intensively and to talk to a real health care professional and to not listen to the friend of a friend because their advice, even if it appears to be safe because it is natural, may harm them.

I thought it was young adults, not children, that were most at risk from a cytokine storm. Older adults were more at risk than children as well, though not so much as young adults.

Wasn’t that the finding of some of the H5N1 and SARS research?

@ Joseph C.:

Anyway, and now we continue with our regularly scheduled babbling.

You are right, sir. I do tend to babble.

Babble sir? I am not aware that I ever babble sir. It may be that from time to time I have considerable information to communicate, and you may question the way in which I organize it…

Sorry couldn’t resist

@DoctrinalFairness

What? Sorry but you totally lost and confused me with your last post. And I wish I could ask something specific in order for you to clarify but the point of you last post has me completely confused.

Are you saying you use to be pro-vaccine but now aren’t because of us ‘believers’?

And if I am coming off as defensive or vicious, I do apologize. But the antivaxx movement has been vicious for years and using words such as Iran and Iraq to illicit fear responses in people and cause panic. Science has been trying to be nice about it by providing stats and numbers and still people do not accept these answers. This is a subject that affects my family first hand and many other people I know. It is something I am very passionate about and will engage in full debate over. I try my best to be even and fair however, I am human and very passionate and when I see lives being threatened because of misinformation and antiscience, from time to time my momma bear hackles come out.

I am not attacking you. I asked very honest question. We are told to question. We have questioned and provided answers. I have asked those on the “green” side to question as well because Fact: just because it is “green” does not make it safe and I want to know if they are aware of those negative things or not. I want to know if they are perhaps putting them self and others at risk by not asking these questions of even “green” things that can and cannot be safe at the same time. I do not see that as being defensive. It is an honest and fair question. It is part of being a critical thinker.

And maybe I just typed all of that out for nothing because well I really do not understand what your point was in your last direction to me.

Yes, it is ridiculous to worry about an ingredient that is not even in the influenza vaccine. Squalene is not approved for use in the United States.

I wish some of you would stop implying that Tawny the antivax nurse is not a real nurse. We’ve previously seen how people with M.D.s after their name can be completely deluded about immunization, so why is it so hard to imagine a clueless nurse? As an example of the latter, my mother-in-law (an LPN) used to send her own daughter at a young age to a chiropractor to treat her asthma with painful neck manipulation. Luckily while there were no positive effects there were no permanent bad ones either.

Besides, I have an enjoyable image of Tawny present in the examining room while the physician conducts a child’s physical exam and reminds the parent to bring him/her back in for scheduled immunizations. Then as soon as the doc is out of the room Tawny leans over with an ominous expression on her face to warn, “We don’t really know what the effects are of all these here vaccines – I have questions about them. You don’t want your infant to get Gulf War Syndrome.”

Maybe Tawny could apply for the next vacancy in Dr. Jay Gordon’s practice. That way any antivax babbling she does will only reinforce the good doctor’s proclivities. He would however have to have faith that she wouldn’t start questioning other aspects of his practice and encourage patients to conduct “research” to overturn his other theories of medicine.

Come to think of it, that would probably have a positive effect. Jay, are you hiring?

I apologize to Tawny for doubting she was a nurse. I had no real evidence for that. When someone makes a claim (e.g. I’m an RN) and then in the next few sentences contradict almost every medical expert in the world, then some doubt about the original claim does spring to one’s mind.

Allow me to make a point with this example (see bold below).
Tawny said (after I wondered if she really was a nurse)

Excuse me, Mariane? Over the years I’ve saved many people’s lives, in and out of the hospital. How about you?

Irrelevant. But since you mention it, I’ve saved hundreds. Every year. I sew trauma victims back together. Therefore, since I save more lives than you, and since I’m so much more highly trained and educated than you, I must be right when I guess you’re not a nurse.

See how bad that logic is? And see how easy it is to claim something that no-one can verify? Your argument about vaccines has to stand on its own merits and not on any claim that you are an RN.

btw, I don’t sew trauma victims back together. Or is that the lie? 😉

As Chris (144) points out, the fact that you google for medical information and then link to a chiropractic website to bolster your argument reveals an astounding lack of knowledge about science, real research and medicine. You are victim of the Dunning-Kruger effect (I know, I reversed author names but this way it rolls off the tongue a bit easier).

To counter the D-K effect learn from the others here. You now know about PubMed so you can start using that instead of Google. Learn how science operates so you can understand why peer-reviewed journals and professional organizations like the CDC and WHO are your best sources for reliable information. It doesn’t mean they are right all the time, but they’ll be right far more often than anything else out there.

You can also learn how to do proper research, learn the fallacies people commit, learn the biases to which we are all subjected and understand how science seeks to minimize these biases. When you understand how knowledge is accumulated you will understand how to evaluate the sources that disseminate this knowledge.

…DoctrinalUnfairness, you do know that human bodies actually produce squalene.

And it’s in olive oil.

Right?

@DoctrinalFairness

kombucha, (which i think is horribly dangerous and MAJOR woo)

I normally stray as far from woo as possible, but I’m going to have to argue for kombucha here. Granted I see absolutely no reason to give it to children. I don’t buy into the whole wonder tonic idea, but the stuff is great. Perfect for a hangover. Just the right amount of hair-of-the-dog (it does contain alcohol, BTW). Probiotics – I’m iffy on, although it is supposed to help with digestion, not too sure if there is ANY evidence behind that. Other than that, the main substances are – water, caffeine (it’s made from tea) and vinegar. It settles the stomach, and I’ve come to love the taste (it’s acquired, for sure).
There is nothing dangerous about it. The only complication that has arose (this was in the mid 90’s) was from homemade stuff (I’ve done,it’s gross) that grows mold on it. You have to be careful in production Any commercial product will be thrown out if there is even a spec of black mold.

@Chris
You’ve been shown the safety studies on another thread,
——————————–
We’re not all as hopelessly credulous as Todd W.

Two drug company studies one of which looked at:

Overall, 89 children were enrolled, vaccinated and analyzed for safety

and another looking at AEs in 145 toddlers

Wow, a whole 201 comments and nary a brain consumed by the undead fuhrer. A couple of trolls and a couple fakes, but no sign of the hitler zombie.

Katherine, I’m fully aware of the composition of squalene. It appears that when you inject said “olive oil” directly into the veins, there is a significantly higher profile of adverse events indicating inflammation- fever, malaise,pain, swelling, etc, than happens without it. The injection of the unadjuvanted antigen alone will do this, too, but it will eventually confer some protection from the virus. That’s the adverse event sacrifice and unknown risk that parents and children can be asked to make to the “tribe”. But don’t then add add something that IS NOT REQUIRED TO BE THERE, something with higher retrogenicity, then talk about doubling the dose of both to then REALLY cascade this effect and ask me to then take it for the team and put my child in harms way in a way that could have been avoided.
At that point, I will take my chances and you will lose one more former team player, which will weaken the herd immunity.
And I promise you, that is what is playing out right now, 1x1x1. People no longer believ you because of things like this- no one really knows what is going to happen in the long term with children- it’s a guess.

Regarding the studies. These studies examined very small groups of children- 300, 99 with numbers that would NEVER fly here on this blog if I wanted to justify something that you would all scream woo-esque and alternative,like acupuncture for millions of people for pain.
We are rolling out many new vaccines with squalene adjuvants as soon as US FDA Goodman opens the pipeline and it will take YEARS for an infants intestine to have rotted enough to have several inches removed and NO ONE will count this as an effect. Hit and run. And you cannot prove at the moment it does NOT happen. I should just take your word for it.
I am not looking to blame vax manufacturers for what I know is a genetic illness. But don’t ask me to harm my child further because you did shoddy testing and are having an experiment.

These studies examined seasonal flu adjuvanted vaccine (Fluad) using the control of the aduvanted H5N1 vaccine (how do we even have that yet? has that yet even mutated and appeared somewhere?), making it impossible to demonstrate that unadjuvanted vaccine does not have anywhere NEAR the adverse effects as adjuvanted and is the safer alternative.
No. If you can justify this kind of thing, when someone on the FDA committee proceedings said that this InfluenzaA has been circulating for DECADES, then we really, really stink at making certain that vaccines are safe and all of your whackos have a point.

It would also really be wonderful to see just one or two of you from time to time admit to real analysis of the Kool-Aid drinking that is going on about the safety for children of adjuvanted vaccines, especially in lieu of what just happened in Germany.
Adults didn’t even want it- and it has been given in Europe “safely” to millions of adults over 65.
And how would you ever truly find long term adverse autoimmune reactions in that population anyway? In Europe?
Are the German government ministers anti-vax whackos or not?
Or are you all playing the newest version of “Poke and Hope”?

There is no age limit to who gets cancer treatment here!!!

And THAT is complete bullshit! I’m in the UK as we speak and spent the morning with a friend whose 62 yr old brother is too old to be enrolled in ANY clinical trial for his cancer. He doesn’t have private insurance, which anyone who is affluent in the UK seems to require. On my way over here, my seatmate was a nurse from the USA who was going to see her dying mother in Essex and SHE WAS THE ONE who told me that.
Luna, if a senior citizen gets Rhumatoid Arthritis, will that be reported as a vaccine side effect?

Uh, Doc ? a clinical trial is not accepted medicine.
it’s called a trial because they’re trying it out to see how it works in real patients. The conditions for acceptance for a clinical trial are set by the scientists and doctors doing the study, not by the NHS.

There is nothing they can do for him at 62 with Stage Cancer. He is too old for any clinical trials. You all screamed about Dr. Simmoncini, I was online looking up Alternative Treatment this morning.

Are the German government ministers anti-vax whackos or not?

Let’s take another stab at this. The answers to scientific problems are decided by scientists, not politicians. I don’t really see how this such a difficult concept for you. We hope that politicians make decisions based on the best available science as delivered by their advisers, but this process breaks down frequently. And yes there are PLENTY of woo politicians. Ever heard of Tom Harkin, Dan Burton, or Prince Charles?

@DoctrinalFairness

“Ritchie, you tell me- are all of these secondary bacterial infections in ANY age group the cause or the result of a cytokine storm- I’m not a doctor and I haven’t a clue.”

Interferon gamma increases from viral infections can lead to increased susceptibility to bacterial infection (S. pneumo for example). In mice at least.

http://www.jci.org/articles/view/35412

I hope Tawny isn’t an RN. She gives the rest of us a bad name. The profession doesn’t need people like that.

In case you forgot, squalene is not approved for use in vaccines in the USA.

I want to defend the poor Germans. We don’t all obtain our information from tabloids.

I checked the statistics website and it says 78% are not planning to be inoculated. This does not mean they are against it. The government says there is not enough for us all, and first health personnel, police, the armed forces, and so on should get it, followed by people who are at risk. It is also generally thought that a person in normal health does not need to worry much about flu.

If we really do get an epidemic they will be queuing up at the doctor, don’t worry. The press is always promising us epidemics which don’t turn up, so most of us will wait and see.

P.S. An educated German speaks and writes English very well, as a rule. If someone cannot spell, and cannot even use a spell checker, this is a sign of some missed opportunities in school.

@ Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (#225):

Here’s the heart of the issue: This new H1N1 virus is here to stay and doctors should discuss vaccination with their higher risk patients. Low risk people will eventually be exposed to the disease and this might be the best year to get the “weakest” iteration of Swine Flu.

I would gladly risk feeling bad at times if it also meant that I could taste my dessert.

Jay:
““The majority of symptomatic GWS patients had serum antibodies to squalene.”” — What you forgot to mention there is, so did the ones who didn’t have symptoms, and those who had never received any suspect vaccines. So you are trying to imply that a set of antibodies common between those who received the vaccines and those who didn’t, those who had symptoms and those who didn’t, was somehow the thing which came from the vaccine and was responsible for the symptoms. Complete Logic Fail. And you’re supposed to be a doctor???

Doctrinal: I repeat, I live in the UK. I have a lot of older relatives here, including two with cancer. Elderly neighbor had lung cancer. Previous elderly neighbor had breast cancer. None of these people ever went begging for treatment on the NHS (oh, and no, you do NOT need private insurance. I had it for a while and gave it up as a complete waste of money here). There are clinical guidelines in every part of the UK for treating elderly with cancer. And the only “evidence” for a lack of treatment are occasional newspaper complaints that elderly cancer patients might be denied the newest of the drugs on the market at times. And despite all this — you call me a liar. Plus, you obviously don’t understand the difference between “trial” and “treatment.” I don’t exactly have a lot of respect for you at the moment — see if you can figure out why.

Speaking of which: I had a look at all the papers about squalene causing RA in rodents, and I think maybe you missed something — the lowest amount of squalene injected into the rodents is about double, in mg per kg of body weight (or in the rodents, mcg/gram of body weight really) than the highest dosage of squalene in a vaccine is for even a small child. I get that you don’t understand dose response, but please try to understand: amount makes a difference.

And has been pointed out to you before, though, you need to apply basic logic: squalene has been in use in Europe for over a decade now. If it increased the incidence of RA, surely we would be able to see the increase of RA since the advent of this adjuvant. WE DON’T. WE HAVE NOT. Therefore, there is no real world evidence whatsoever that squalene as an adjuvant causes this effect.

Please spare us the histrionics about “it will take YEARS for an infants intestine to have rotted enough to have several inches removed” and how we can’t prove it DOESN’T happen. We can’t prove that the entire world wasn’t created by a capricious deity last Tuesday with the appearance of age and false memories for everyone. We can’t prove that UFOs DON’T come down and anally probe people, ever, either. We have absolutely no evidence, anywhere, ever, that it happens, though. It’s not even biologically plausible! But still, you consider this more important than risking peoples lives from an entirely tangible, real, measurable contagious disease???

Seriously: you weight this nebulous, unproven, unevidenced, only vaguely potential and extremely unlikely danger over the entirely provable, tangible, measurable danger of pediatric fatality from flu — where we can actually point to the numbers of seriously ill and dead. What the HELL kind of “logic” leads you to do this?

Luna_the_cat writes: What the HELL kind of “logic” leads you to do this?

Yes, one wonders whether folks using this sort of “reasoning” would hesitate to deliver their children from a burning home because it’s never been conclusively proved that the flame retardant fumes you might breathe as you rushed from the house have absolutely no chance of causing cancer decades hence.

BTW, I am an American staying temporarily in the UK and found it humorous that Luna was also awake at nearly three in the morning, but no one questioned her odd hours. I will ask my friend about her brother, who we were discussing in the context of my own 54 year old brother in law in the USA who is also terminal- and what danger is there in trying out alternatives after being told there is nothing else for you and to get your affairs in order?
Please also show me that squalene based adjuvants have been used safely in Europe for years, Luna. Seriously, are you comfortable enough with the evidence to warrant the hysterical and united defense by nearly every scientist on this blog for a substance that until very recently (April, 2009?) been approved only for people aged 65 and over?
I will search for and later find the exhaustive list of pre-existing conditions in this age group that would confound or disqualify any evidence of a newly diagnosed auto-immune disorder or most reactions, but you would already know that.
In the meantime, do continue to defend the results of studies on roughly 1300 children who were studied in such interesting contexts, eg the comparison of adjuvanted H5N1 vaccine to adjuvanted Fluad as in the study Todd furnished on the other thread, for just starters?
>>>About Fluad®
Fluad®, the only MF59TM-adjuvanted seasonal influenza vaccine, is licensed for active immunization against influenza in elderly subjects (65 years of age and over)…
http://www.novartisvaccines.com/downloads/newsroom/media-releases/20071019_FluadVACCINEpublication.pdf<<< And yes, I used unproven hyperpole and equally hysterical assertions in my illustration about the diseased bowel and the 600 people in the ICU. But thus far you engage in exactly the same hyperbole in defense of vaccination with an unproven substance vs risk of the flu, while having absolutely no proof what will happens to a small child's immune system in the long term. What is the risk of increasing a circulating cytokine (IL6) in a young body that is exposed but has not yet broken out with symptoms and receives the flu shot during this period? Once again, I contend parents need to know the actual risks of both- and you HAVE NO REAL IDEA. The majority of studies (and absymally small numbers) compared oranges to oranges- check them yourselves. These are children and babies and the Adverse Events in the very few studies that compared adjuvanted to unadjuvanted show notably higher AE's in adjuvanted- with zero understanding of how this contributes to the dysregulation of systemic inflammation down the road. And I am expected to furnish the proof of this? WHere are YOUR genuine questions about this??? I'm not a doctor and never claimed to be a scientist. YOU read the studies http://www.emea.europa.eu/ and explain how they are justification to inject millions of children with adjuvanted vaccine. Yes, it is HIDEOUS that people are dying from this flu and millions can probably be vaccinated without question with a minimum of worry- but Dr. JAy- WHO is our risk group? Every one of the risk groups that I have seen are also diseases with dyregulated IL6- in which case until more is known EVRY one of them should get unadjuvanted Vaccine with much lower inflammatory AE profile.

I see Dr. Jay is back – to cheer on antivaxers, jeer at his critics, and complain about “canards”. Speaking of which…

Dr. Jay says in his latest post: “Here’s the heart of the issue: This new H1N1 virus is here to stay and doctors should discuss vaccination with their higher risk patients. Low risk people will eventually be exposed to the disease and this might be the best year to get the “weakest” iteration of Swine Flu.”

This statement implies that Dr. Jay will be “discussing” H1N1 vaccination with his “higher risk” patients, and one would think this means that some would wind up getting immunized. But on his website, Dr. Jay says the following:

“I also won’t be giving the flu shot to the kids and parents in my practice unless there are extraordinary risk factors. I anticipate giving none at all this year.” (bolding added)

So, Dr. Jay has 1) apparently made up a category of “extraordinary risk” patients for whom H1N1 vaccination is theoretically possible, but somehow he anticipates giving none of them protection. Then he comes in here and talks about “discussing” vaccination with a similarly nebulous “higher risk” group (“higher risk” sounds more encompassing than “extraordinary” risk, but we still have no idea what Dr. Jay is talking about).

The CDC‘s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices has recommended initial emphasis on vaccinating patients in five groups it considers at high risk from H1N1 flu, including pregnant women, people who live with or care for infants under 6 months of age, and children and young adults aged 6 months to 24 years. Tell us, Dr. Jay, do you see any patients/parents who fall into these groups, and what are you “discussing” with them? Do you consider anyone coming under these guidelines to be at high enough risk to recommend vaccine protection? Do you treat any patients with cystic fibrosis, asthma, immune system disorders or other chronically ill children who are even more at risk from H1N1, and are they “extraordinary” enough to deserve being immunized?

Have you taken these children and parents into account in anticipating that you will give the H1N1 vaccine to no one this year?

If you still plan on immunizing no one in your practice, how do you reconcile that with your claim of not being an antivaxer?

Here’s yet another chance for you to elevate the level of discussion here (which you so deplore) and provide actual content. Or will you duck direct questions yet again?

Doctrinal: Time Zone Fail or Reading Comprehension Fail? Luna was most certainly NOT up at 3am — not last night, anyway.

Fluad is the most common vaccine which contains a squalene-based adjuvant — it is most certainly not the only vaccine. One of the trials where the effect of a squalene-based adjuvant was monitored in neonates was a trial of vaccines to prevent HIV transmission from an infected mother.

But MF59, the squalene-based adjuvant, has been in use in flu vaccines since at least 1996 — it is mentioned in The 3rd European Conference on Vaccinology: Building lifelong immunity, for example. And I honestly cannot understand why you think it is ONLY for over-65s– I haven’t got a flu jab this year yet, but I went with my grandfather to get one in 2007, and we got exactly the same thing (I am an occasional carer for kids with health issues, so I go for every vaccination). I have not heard of separate stocks for jabs for over-65s and under-65s; this is just daft.

I think the fact that you cannot tell the difference between hysterical hyperbole, and people getting completely fed up with your logic and fact failures, is part of the problem. Tell me, have you spent any time at all evaluating the content of the responses to you, and thinking through what people are telling you about why they do not share your concerns?

I leave you with one more thing:
http://cdli.highwire.org/cgi/content/abstract/13/9/1010

A clear finding of our study is that the vast majority of healthy adults have antibodies to squalene circulating in their sera. It is of note that these antibodies were found in individuals from various geographical areas, such as the United States, western Europe, and eastern Europe, which to our knowledge had never received vaccines or other pharmacological treatments containing squalene. The statistically significant difference found among the three cohorts studied here cannot be ascribed to vaccinations, since these people were never vaccinated previously with vaccines containing MF59. In some cohorts, the frequency of individuals with detectable levels of antisqualene antibodies was as high as 100%.

It is not enough to say “I don’t have to believe this because it comes from Novartis”; you need to be able to point to actual data which would throw doubt on this finding in humans, for a start, and perhaps point out where this study was flawed.

WTF? Whatever Brent Spiner says or does from now on has no impact on the greatness of the character he played in ST:TNG.

Please. We must stop the insanity. Practically every person who affects our culture has quirks, you have to separate the art from the artist, and that goes for Jim Carey, Jenny McCarthy, and Bill Maher, too. You also have to realize that people do change their minds about things — not always in a good way.

Anyway, I support you in your attack the falsehoods espoused, and encourage you to go after Brent Spiner in the off-chance that he becomes better educated on the subject, but leave Data and Brent Spiner’s artistic genius well enough alone! Besides, how do you know he isn’t just being a sarcastic ass and egging you on?

I apologize for engaging in unclear accusations, after hours before having sat with afriend whose 62 year old brother was told that there is no treatment other than palliative care nor any trial available to him (the trial due to his age) here in the UK. But the lies and minimizations of the unknown long term use of squalene here are astounding. Please direct me to any studies with data showing that squalene-based adjuvants have been safely used in children with little or no risk to increased autoimmune or inflammatory disease.
Argue this woman’s science. http://www.newfluwiki2.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1560

@DoctrinalFairness (#242):

I apologize for engaging in unclear accusations, after hours before having sat with afriend whose 62 year old brother was told that there is no treatment other than palliative care nor any trial available to him (the trial due to his age) here in the UK

Sorry to be so blunt, but are you some kind of idiot? Clinical trials are NOT part of the health care system of ANY country. Whether you take part in a trial is determined by whether you fit the criteria set up for that trial, NOT by whether alternative treatments are available to you.

What is the prevalence of Gulf War Syndrome in European civilian populations that have received squalene-adjuvanted vaccines?

Why argue from such a narrow group (Gulf War veterans) of squalene-adjuvanted vaccine recipients (assuming arguendo) instead of showing the similar number of Gulf War Syndrome pts in non-military populations of squalene-adjuvanted vaccine recipients?

Some breaking news, which may be relevant:

Only one dose of vaccine is needed for protection against pandemic H1N1 flu and the jabs have so far proved to be safe, the World Health Organisation said on Friday. The WHO has repeatedly sought to reassure people around the world that the H1N1 vaccines being made by 25 different companies, with various formulations, are safe.

“All the reports received to date following vaccination — either in clinical trials or in mass vaccination campaigns — have shown that the safety profile of these pandemic vaccines is good and is very similar to the one which is known for seasonal influenza vaccine,” said WHO expert Marie-Paule Kieny.

“Nothing special in terms of adverse events has been noted,” Kieny, who heads the U.N. health agency’s vaccine research, told journalists on a telephone conference.

DF: You are at this point lying when you express concerns about squalene, which you have been told over and over is not approved for use in the US, which you have admitted is the country you live in.

Even aside from that, you have demonstrated a complete lack of awareness as to what an adjuvant is or does.

Since I haven’t seen anyone explain this for you, I guess I’ll take a stab at it.

You see, the entire purpose of an adjuvant is to provoke an inflammatory response, so that a stronger immune response is provoked with less antigen. That is why the adjuvanted vaccines are available faster – because the limiting factor is the production of vaccine. There is no grand conspiracy to give people arthritis, and there is no real reason to believe that the amount of adjuvant found in adjuvanted vaccines causes any health problems – the USA limits adjuvants to only alum, while other countries don’t, yet we don’t see significantly different rates of any relevant diseases.

michael- what crap. we both know that it is just a matter of time until squalene based adjuvants are the “gold standard” of vaccines in the USA. Sweeping the many questions about them under the rug helps no one.
The questions are now obviously shared by an entire body of government officials who are either, by your very own reasoning, all very ill-advised by the psuedoscientists in Germany and to be included as antivax fringe lunatics or YOU are lying, which is the tired accusation hurled at me. And I live in the USA, visit the UK and will refuse squalene adjuvants when the inevitably DO arrive in the USA until you prove to me why I should not.

Dr. Jay Gordon:

Rather than looking at the possibility that there’s validity to using our limited supply of H1N1 vaccines selectively for higher risk children and adults, the chorus here shouts back “NO!!”

I wish you would use specific language.

The CDC recommends the swine flu vaccination for:
– pregnant women
– children 6 months to 4 years
– children aged 5 to 18 years with medical conditions that put them at higher risk for influenza-related complications
– people who live with or care for infants less than 6 months old
– health care workers

Once those people have been vaccinated and if supplies allow, the CDC recommends expansion of the list above to include:
– persons 5 years to 24 years
– persons 25 to 64 with medical conditions that put them at higher risk for influenza-related complications

Dr. Gordon, please explain how your recommendations differ from the CDC guidelines.

As the parent of a child with Crohns disease, I was very authoritatively and unequivocally informed by several of her physicians and surgeons that there was no credible relationship between Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis (MAP) and the ongoing disease in her bowel. There WAS no room for debate and the implication was that by not heeding their advice, I was putting my child at death’s door.
Imagine my surprise….
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%

I don’t need to send you studies, Todd. You sound like such a reasonable person, how do you defend the excrutiatingly small bit of evidence (tiny, tiny numbers of controls for unadjuvanted of the safety in children of these adjuvants?) that squalene based adjuvants will not appear as conincidental autoimmune disease in a child of 2? Crohn’s disease in a 2 year old is an agonizing illness and I am not exagerrating. You don’t have a clue what causes it and at the moment, there is a giant question mark about these adjuvants and you want to add them willy-nilly to the bunches of new vaccines awaiting families and children.
Expect some major resistance and much of it to come from your former supporters.

As the parent of a child with Crohns disease, I was very authoritatively and unequivocally informed by several of her physicians and surgeons that there was no credible relationship between Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis (MAP) and the ongoing disease in her bowel. There WAS no room for debate and the implication was that by not heeding their advice, I was putting my child at death’s door.
Imagine my surprise….
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%

I don’t need to send you studies, Todd. You sound like such a reasonable person, how are you ever in your right mind defending the excrutiatingly small bit of evidence from the studies that you provided (tiny, tiny numbers of controls for unadjuvanted vs aduvanted )that the safety of children is insured? There is a reasonable giant question mark about these adjuvants and their activity in under 65’s (please show me data, Luna) but you all glowingly support the addition of them, willy-nilly, to the numerous new vaccines awaiting families and children.
Expect some major resistance and much of it will come from your supporters. Your response is an appeal to ridicule. Jefferson might have found ridicule an appropriate response to attacks on reason, but other famous people had entirely different opinions about it. Maybe you have held the authoritative stage for too long and its time to give way to a more integrated idea of scientific knowledge.

@doctrinalfairness

I don’t need to send you studies, Todd.

Then you can’t make claims or intimate that squalene is harmful and still hope to be taken seriously. If you don’t have anything to support your concerns, then they are irrational, sorry to say. As far as I understand, squalene has been used in Europe, including in children’s vaccines, for roughly 10 years, with no major reports of serious AEs. Currently, then, it appears that squalene is a safe adjuvant. It’s going to take research showing that there is, indeed, increased risk of serious injury for me to change my mind.

you want to add them willy-nilly to the bunches of new vaccines awaiting families and children.

You seem to have me confused with someone else. Where have I said such? I expect that any substance for use in the U.S. should go through the proper trials. The studies I linked to were for Europe and I would not use them alone to support inclusion of MF59 in U.S. vaccines. However, they (among other studies) support the idea that in the general population, MF59 is safe for use in children. Your child’s case is not common, and, barring studies that included such populations in their studies, I probably would not recommend its use in that specific subgroup.

As to your child, are you arguing that a vaccine adjuvant caused Crohn’s disease, or are you just concerned about the effect adjuvants might have in children with Crohn’s disease?

@DoctrinalFairness (#256/258):

Imagine my surprise….

I can imagine you must have been extremely surprised at this study that says nothing about a relationship between Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis and Crohn’s disease.

Here is a working link, which you were unable to provide:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0001308

@doctrinalfairness,

I, for one, am going to spend far more time and give far more credence to Chinese and Indian doctors who treat these illnesses with woo-woo herbs that are readily available to families who may be left with the collateral damage of your rigid certainties, but no medical care or financial resources to deal with them.

The environmental anomalies may have stimulated certain rebellious insticts which could affect everyone’s judgment. Except mine, of course.

@maya

So decide for yourself and then do or let it.

Sir, I believe I speak for everyone here when I say, to hell with our orders.

@data: I´m a madam 😉

that was not an order that was a well-meant advice^^, becaus this discussion got no poin aside from …. I can´t see the point. I´m sorry. But I wonder about the word ani-vaxx, only because people don´t want that speciall vaccination.

“Dr. Jay” states:

“Here’s the heart of the issue: This new H1N1 virus is here to stay and doctors should discuss vaccination with their higher risk patients. Low risk people will eventually be exposed to the disease and this might be the best year to get the “weakest” iteration of Swine Flu.”

It appears that the previous statements by “Dr. Jay” about how getting vaccinated for the H1N1 (“swine”) influenza is stupid are being……modified. How Orwellian of you, “Dr. Jay”. Now he encourages doctors to “discuss” it with their “higher risk patients”.

He also shows a sadly dated understanding of how the H1N1 (“swine”) influenza is doing so far. In my city, a total of 18 young adults and older children without pre-existing chronic illnesses (“low risk people”) have been placed on extracorporeal membrane oxygenators (“artificial lungs”) because of this “weakest iteration” of the H1N1 influenza. The number of people who have spent time “hooked to ventilators” is far larger.

This is unprecendented – at least in my city. And the number of H1N1 (“swine”) influenza infections is climbing at an astounding rate. I seriously doubt that people will look back on this as the “weakest iteration” of the H1N1 influenza. Of course, I might be wrong about that – only time will tell (although it has already exceeded the 2007-2008 seasonal influenza – a “bad” one – in cases and hospitalizations).

Another thing that “Dr. Jay” doesn’t seem to get is that the H1N1 influenza has been around since 1918 (and probably before that) – there have been numerous seasonal influenzas where the H1N1 type was prevalent. There is nothing especially dangerous about “H1N1” per se – each virus is unique in its abilities. If “Dr. Jay” had even the slightest understanding of how the influenza virus works, he would know that.

I suspect that the ensuing months will see “Dr. Jay” continuing to “modify” his statements in a vain effort to erase the past. I have no problem with people who – looking at the data (something “Dr. Jay” is not good at) – change their minds and say, “I was wrong about that.”

Being “Dr. Jay” means never having to say “I was wrong.” He is simply mis-understood (and we, of course, are being mean and uncivil).

Prometheus

doctrinalfairness writes:

I must be an idiot, because all of our very best science after 30 years of cancer research has just released two under-65 year old men to palliative care and hospice.

“All of our very best science” lacks worth in your eyes because two individuals’ cancer wasn’t cured and your child had/has Crohn’s disease?

Your standards of judgment are, errm, interesting. Forgive me for thinking as a consequence that the prospects for any reasonable interchange with you are unlikely.

Re: doctrinalfairness, T.M.

The clown can stay, but the Ferengi in the gorilla suit has to go!

T.M. writes:

I would not have made the terrible choice which killed my child.

How sure are you of this?

The reason I ask is the following – My wife lost her 17-year-old daughter in a car accident soon after we began dating, so I have perhaps a little bit of an idea of what you’ve gone through. Even though her daughter was living with her ex-husband at the time and she had no involvement whatever in the accident or the events leading to it, my wife still engaged in self-blame, which I suppose is unavoidable. It seemed, paradoxically, to comfort her to think she had some control over the situation even in that extremely negative way, rather than opening herself up to the terrifying prospect that there is the chance any of us could be subject to horrors in a random universe.

DF:
You appear to be completely unable to accept that you might be wrong about anything. You really, really don’t seem to be much of one for logical thought in evaluation of whether things are linked or indicate risk. You are completely impervious to all the studies which have been produced which demonstrate no increased risk in humans; they slide right off you like you were teflon-coated! You believe in this risk, however little you have reason to do so — I’d even go so far to say you are fixated on it to the exclusion of all else. And yet:

I, for one, am going to spend far more time and give far more credence to Chinese and Indian doctors who treat these illnesses with woo-woo herbs that are readily available to families who may be left with the collateral damage of your rigid certainties, but no medical care or financial resources to deal with them.

…you want to treat your child with medicine which HAS frequently been shown to be contaminated with heavy metals and REAL toxic substances.
http://www.nelm.nhs.uk/en/NeLM-Area/News/2008—August/27/Heavy-metal-contamination-common-in-Ayurvedic-medicines/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_patent_medicine#Heavy_metal_contamination

I actually started out reading these conversations with a certain sympathy for you, even though your original approach (of insulting everyone here and repeating anti-vaxx canards) kind of sucked. I’m still a bit sympathetic, because I understand the kind of desperation which having a sick child engenders. But you are still an idiot.

maya:
The real issue is that Spiner pointed people to Jay Gordon as a source of information about vaccinations; you probably don’t realise, Gordon has a long history here, and he gives out a lot of false information. People should absolutely have a right to choose, but it imperative that they have complete, truthful and accurate information with which to inform that choice — and what they consistently get from people like Gordon and the anti-vaccination crowd is misinformation, distortion, and fallacy. Making up your mind based on lies only hurts people. Spiner could have picked much better sources for people to educate themselves from, and the fact that he found Gordon credible says two things about him:
His own understanding is incomplete, flawed and/or based on misinformation
and
He was too lazy to check on his facts.

People here are not averse to people “thinking for themselves” — they ARE averse to seeing people swallow falsehoods and repeat them, to the detriment of public health and understanding.

Science isn’t simply a “matter of opinion”, like literature criticism. The data point in a certain direction, or they don’t. Something works or it doesn’t. It is based on phenomena of the physical world, objective reality. And the fears which are spread even about the flu vaccine are all too often based on simple lies about the physical world. People who know the data, and are familiar with the biology, get deeply irritated about it. Why do you think we shouldn’t be? I don’t know what your field is or what you do, but if you saw people being lied to about a subject you knew, and potentially getting hurt by believing the lies, wouldn’t you be irritated?

Prometheus- would you happen to have any basic H1N1 tracking info of the patients on respirators?…how many of them tested positive for H1N1? were any of them vaccinated? I have been very concerned with our cases here in GA. We also have several hospitalized cases, but only one of the ones tested was positive for swine flu. Our director is now asking for all patients to be tested again.

Why should he bother? You’d simply ignore it.

Jane

What is the prevalence of Gulf War Syndrome in European civilian populations that have received squalene-adjuvanted vaccines? Why argue from such a narrow group (Gulf War veterans) of squalene-adjuvanted vaccine recipients (assuming arguendo) instead of showing the similar number of Gulf War Syndrome pts in non-military populations of squalene-adjuvanted vaccine recipients?

Good question. To put it simply adjuvants such as squalene stimulate the immune system. When given to the elderly – whose weaker immune system may need stimulation – the effect may be different than when given to military-aged persons whose immune systems are stronger in the 1st place. Think of the difference as giving Viagra to a 70 year old and an 18 year old

doctrinalfairness:

I, for one, am going to spend far more time and give far more credence to Chinese and Indian doctors who treat these illnesses with woo-woo herbs that are readily available to families who may be left with the collateral damage of your rigid certainties, but no medical care or financial resources to deal with them.

You’re angry that doctors don’t have good treatments for certain illnesses suffered by your loved ones. That’s understandable. But remember that doctors also have loved ones who get sick and die prematurely due to a lack of effective therapies. We’re all in the same boat, really.

Most doctors would like to see at least two studies with appropriate controls showing that some novel treatment is safe and effective before they feel comfortable offering that therapy to their patients. I doubt you’re recommending that we accept therapies from China or India without such evidence, simply by virtue of their place of origin.

Luna, the strength of your argument and your insults and all of the insults here hinge on data that you have failed to produce, because there isn’t any. Children in the slums of India aren’t going to have much of a choice beyond plant medicine, so your whole screed about heavy metals is mute. Hopefully there will be a body of work in herbal medicine that provides treatments for the pain of RA and Crohns, because rest assured no one here on this blog will devote 5 minutes to wondering or tracking autoimmune AE’s in the long term for children there for this or any other squalene based adjuvanted vaccine which the generous humanitarians will now distribute to eradicate disease.
Accusing me of lies is pathetic in the face of the abysmal state of the research that expert scientists like you use to justify beyond a shadow of a doubt your certainties and the destruction of those who dare challenge them.
T.M., thank you and I’m sorry that I called attention to your post, esp in lieu of the more unconscionable replies.
Lovely to have all the answers to those of us with unfounded “concerns”. The attitude that you should accept the inconsistencies and “take it for the team” in the absence of data will only backfire for all of us and is as evil as any anti-vax argument.

….meow.

TM @273:

Equally ridiculous is the ‘squalene is produced in the body’ comment. Alot of ‘shit’ is produced in the body, but it should not be injected back into the body.

You, sir, are engaging in false equivalences. The question of squalene being produced by the liver is relevant because it is released in the bloodstream. (Same bloodstream, you realize, where vaccine-associated products – antigens and adjuvants – end up, right?)

Shit is produced in the body, yes, but it hardly reaches the bloodstream – and therefore, there is no question of injecting it in the bloodstream without serious consequences. Stool transplantation in the GI tract, on the other hand, is a known therapy for C. difficile associated diarrhea.

Do try to find better arguments next time!

Spot (#289), I find myself intrigued by your subvocal oscillations.

T.M. — I haven’t time or inclination to go back and point out all the explicit links to studies which failed to find any correlation between antibodies to squalene and exposure to vaccines containing MF59; or the links to all the studies involving vaccines containing MF59; or the links to the studies failing to find that exposure to MF59 even provokes antibodies to squalene. They are there. You obviously aren’t paying attention to the fact that:
if squalene-based adjuvants caused a higher rate of autoimmune disease like arthritis and lupus
then
in countries where these adjuvants have been in use
we ought to see a rise in the rates of autoimmune diseases like arthritis and lupus
regardless of whether or not it was being tracked as a possible side effect of flu vaccines.

This. is. not. rocket. science.

Second, since Sid as well as DF seem a bit logic-impaired, could I further point out that:
The mf59-adjuvanted flu vaccines are targeted towards over-65s, because all flu vaccines are targetted at over-65s except for this rather unusual H1N1;
this does not mean ONLY over-65s get these vaccines:
the SAME vaccine is in use for EVERYONE WHO GETS FLU VACCINES here.
Including infants.

YES, infants who are vaccinated against flu in the UK, Italy and a number of other European countries get EXACTLY the same vaccine as over-65s.

As do nurses, carers and other at-risk populations.

Sheesh.

Further, TM — things where DF was flat wrong: claiming that there is no vaccine adverse event tracking in the UK or Europe. Claiming that over-65s can’t get cancer treatment here, only palliative care. Those are not only wrong, they are idiotically, blatantly wrong. Has there been ANY indication that DF has backed down on this? Any sort of “ok, I was mistaken” even? No.

Further vaccines used in infants which have MF59 as an adjuvant:
♦ Hep B —in use in the UK
♦ herpes simplex virus type 2 (HSV-2)
♦ several types of HIV-1 gp120 virus subunit vaccines to protect infants of infected mothers
♦ a combination Meningitidis B/C

Beyond that I’m not going to bother spending the time, as I am entirely confident that it will be ignored anyway and I got other things to do.

@Luna

Thanks for the list of vaccines using MF59.

Luna
the SAME vaccine is in use for EVERYONE WHO GETS FLU VACCINES here.
Including infants

Fluad – Indications

Active immunisation against influenza in elderly ≥65 yr, esp for those w/ increased risk of associated complications (ie patients affected by underlying chronic diseases including diabetes, CVS & resp diseases).
==========
If they wanted everyone to have it they wouldn’t say ≥65 yr

Fluad®, the only MF59TM-adjuvanted seasonal influenza vaccine, is LICENSED for active immunization against influenza in ELDERLY subjects
=======================
Further vaccines used in infants which have MF59 as an adjuvant:
♦ Hep B –in use in the UK

Does it have a name?
—————————–
if squalene-based adjuvants caused a higher rate of autoimmune disease like arthritis and lupus
then in countries where these adjuvants have been in use
we ought to see a rise in the rates of autoimmune diseases like arthritis and lupus regardless of whether or not it was being tracked as a possible side effect of flu vaccines.

Adjuvanted vaccines aren’t being used in children a group that reacts differently to adjuvants

======================
Beyond that I’m not going to bother spending the time, as I am entirely confident that it will be ignored anyway and I got other things to do.

Me too!

Sid, one difference between us is that I actually show up with data in hand. All you do is sit around going “nyah, nyah, you have to try harder! I don’t believe you! That isn’t good enough! Go look this up for me!” and ignoring all the questions put to you…thus presenting us with noise and nothing at all of substance. When you get ignored it’s because there is really nothing else to do with you, short of mocking you savagely.

@DoctrinalFairness,

Thank you too, titmouse, jules, todd, credentialed, prometheus, many kind and patient people here-maybe someday there could actually be a dialogue that wasn’t all inflammatory horseshit- which I admittedly succumb to as well.

It is the struggle itself that is most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards.

@ Commander Data (#227):

I am superior, sir, in many ways.

But not, apparently, in spelling. ;o)

Aw, poor baby. I was not the one who caught you in the lie.

How about you give us the evidence that squalene is dangerous?

“Is it really such a crime to not want an immune stimulating adjuvant injected into a child when the prevention can be achieved without it? just stupid.”

Leah, the alternative is to do what is done with the American flu vaccines — include more antigen. In either case, the goal is to achieve a certain amount of immune response. Whether this is done using adjuvants or not is immaterial, at least as far as how stimulated the immune system is by a vaccine.

The only drawbacks to using more antigen are: greater risk of side-effects from the antigen (which is, by nature, less well understood than the adjuvant), lower production rate of vaccines (which means greater risk of shortages), and higher price (which means some folks won’t be able to get it even if they want it).

If you’re okay with that, and it seems that certain policy makers in the US are okay with it, then, well, I guess this is where we part company. Because I, for one, am not okay with it. Adjuvants make the vaccines safer, cheaper, more abundant, and more effective. It saddens me greatly that we can’t get adjuvanted flu vaccines in the US; it’s the main reason why I still have not been able to get an H1N1 vaccine, despite being asthmatic. It’s also why we have no real chance of getting herd immunity, which means the immunocompromised are caught between a rock and a hard place with this one.

I’m surprised that no one mentions the bigger issue that anti-vaccination is just a part of. Its the issue of reliable sources of information. It used to be that one went to the library, got a research journal, looked up something that was (usually) reliably peer-reviewed, and got some answers. It used to be the scientists refrained from making opinions in non-peer review journals.

The internet has ruined all of this. People with not science training are now required to determine a good scientific argument, if they have even that much training. I can tell you, its almost impossible to look at peer review journals these days (they all require steep fees), and the past 9 years have trashed the peer review system, with people lying about study results.

I’m seriously beginning to hate the internet, but its the way were disseminating information these days. And its a shallow, shallow pool of information!