If you want a dose of science and rationality about the H1N1 flu pandemic, and you need it now, check out The Skeptics’ Guide to the Universe. Led by Steve Novella, the discussion involves more than one friend of the blog, if you know what I mean and can be downloaded here.
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A dose of H1N1 flu anti-woo
- Post author By Orac
- Post date November 17, 2009
- 109 Comments on A dose of H1N1 flu anti-woo
By Orac
Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.
That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)
DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.
To contact Orac: [email protected]
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109 replies on “A dose of H1N1 flu anti-woo”
Ah Steve! the man with an opinion about everything!
Has he seen this?
pity steve isnt sceptical about the vaccine:
‘A Surge of Miscarriage Reports From Pregnant Women After Taking Swine Flu Vaccine Hits The Internet â Tell Every Pregnant Woman You Know’
etc
http://noworldsystem.com/2009/11/15/pregnant-women-miscarriage-after-h1n1-vaccine/
Credible news, please, not anecdotes and Faux News.
Or maybe you’re just too fucking stupid to figure out what’s a good source and what’s not a good source.
brian is a clueless troll, just ignore him.
Still waiting for my dose.
Things are extremely backed up in Canada right now, even for high-priority groups, some of whom will not receive vaccination until 2010. The manufacturers in Quebec are not meeting production quotas; I blame French culture (10am-3pm work days, 2 hour lunches).
Joking, joking. Tout le monde travaillent fort en quebec, au contraire de la modelle stéréotypé du europe.
Brian, that’s very interesting, because in the obgyn dept I’m now working in, I see pregnant women with severe complications secondary to swine flu, but not a single one with a complication due to the swine flu vaccine. My observations are not nearly as useful as evidence-based studies into the matter, but I would say they’re superior to your conspiracy theory wesbite links.
We actually address the issue of miscarriage and vaccine on the show – you should listen to it.
Brian and his conspiracy and fear-mongering friends can obviously use a lesson is basic epidemiology.
Meanwhile, here is a recent review of the lit on pregnancy and the flu vaccine, which concludes:
“No study to date has demonstrated an increased risk of either maternal complications or adverse fetal outcomes associated with inactivated influenza vaccination. Moreover, no scientific evidence exists that thimerosal-containing vaccines are a cause of adverse events among children born to women who received influenza vaccine during pregnancy.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19850275?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=1
Orac – you have the distinction of being filtered from my workplace by Websense! I can access all the other blogs at sci-blogs, but not yours! What on Earth have you been doing?!
You’re in good company though – they got Jerry Coyne, too at this “Why Evolution…” site. I have no idea why. I guess the place is owned by a bunch of anti-vax creationists!
Well, we’ve got plenty of swiney floo vaccines here in Oklahoma, finally. No seasonal vaccines any more though. Maybe some of those will make it back sometime.
Nathan, come on down. I got my shot today for free at the county health department.
military wife, I’ll be in Oklahoma next week. Do you know if they’re taking walk-ins, or do they have scheduled clinics as they did with the seasonal vaccines?
Hey it’s got potential though, huh? Can’t be woo pooed yet.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19491064?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=2
I finally… FINALLY… found H1N1 vax for the kids and the morning they were handing them out – Both of them came down with an awful croup-y coughing bug & so I couldn’t take them. GAH!
I thought I’d ask the Dr.s out there what they think of this: I was at a party this weekend and a woman told me her cousin was in the military & his Army Dr told him no way no how would he let his privates get the H1N1 vaccine because it was too risky. Another woman joined the conversation and said her ob/gyn is refusing to give her patients the vaccine because it is “unsafe.” She then went on to say she knew, personally, a boy who was “vaccine injured” and his pediatrician agrees. I told them I just can’t be having this conversation with them & changed the subject.
My question is, besides WTF, where are all of these doctors dispensing vaccination horrors coming from? Where do they get this information and why do they believe it? Surely they can’t all work for the Mercola Natural Health Center that I have to drive by every day. Why are real physicians whipping up this frenzy? Pardon my ignorance.
I would call it BS second-hand gossip, only I have heard this from a full handful of other people running the full spectrum of credibility.
“Dr”notWonderful, from the study you posted:
It says it needs more work.
Is it true that in the Us the adverse incident rate data are actually the property of the manufacturer of the vaccine and getting that info is next to impossible? Which is why we see more data from Canada and Britain?
For the record, despite the gallons of woo I apparently drink daily as a chiropractic physician, my son has all of his standard vaccines but not flu, chicken pox, etc. His pediatrician is a patient of mine and he said he’s seen one, possibly two, bad reactions to H1N1 vaccine in kids this season and one child is still hospitalized and may have neurologic issues that will “probably clear up.” He said he’ll probably vaccinate his kids but is a little afraid and will cross his fingers.
I know adverse events are rare but I doubt highly they are completely made up.
No shit Chris, you’re a real f’n genius. I said it shows potential. I am left assuming there is already some evidence supporting Vit D supplementation for for TB, flu, viral uri and therefore more studies should be done. See below.
“On the basis of studies reviewed to date, the strongest evidence supports further research into adjunctive vitamin D therapy for tuberculosis, influenza, and viral upper respiratory tract illnesses. In the selected studies, certain aspects of study design are highlighted to help guide future clinical research in the field.”
Um, you’re not anti-Vit D biased are therefore you manipulated the issue by pulling out the one sentence to support your pre-conceived personal feelings? Because that would be way super weird because you you sort of can make the stuff yourself, ya know.
Also, what evidence do you have that I am not, in fact, Wonderful? Been spying on me in the shower?
More from that paper:
Thirteen studies scattered over 60 years. Needs more work.
Vaccines are still the best protection.
I know it is only feeding the troll, but while brian has his anecdotes, I have mine:
The offspring got his H1N1 shot on Sunday. Before the shot, he was only able to take about 9 steps on his own. However, Sunday night, after the shot, he was able to take 15. Apparently the H1N1 shot makes toddlers walk better.
I shouldn’t mention it, but he has also come down with a cold since then. I guess the H1N1 vaccine gives one a cold, right? No. 1) it was the inactivated virus vaccine, so it isn’t causing a problem, and 2) mom and dad are also coming down with colds, despite not getting the H1N1 shot.
Great piece, Orac et al. I’ll be recommending it to the rest of the dept and to my students.
at IDSA it was mentioned that given the background spontaneous abortion rate during pregnancy and if we managed to give the flu vaccine to 50% of pregnant females, that 1200 (or was it 1500?) would have a spontaneous abortion within 24 hours of the vaccine just as part of the background. Of course, all 1200 would attribute the loss of the pregnancy to the vaccine.
brian is a clueless troll, just ignore him.
Posted by: Chris | November 17, 2009 2:28 PM
======================
if you have a pregnant wife you would be be advised not to ignore the info posted…Just do your own research if you doubt it.
======================
Now for Steven:
‘Brian and his conspiracy and fear-mongering friends can obviously use a lesson is basic epidemiology.
Meanwhile, here is a recent review of the lit on pregnancy and the flu vaccine, which concludes:
“No study to date has demonstrated an increased risk of either maternal complications or adverse fetal outcomes associated with inactivated influenza vaccination. Moreover, no scientific evidence exists that thimerosal-containing vaccines are a cause of adverse events among children born to women who received influenza vaccine during pregnancy.”
Whats wrong with this? Quite a lot….
The advice comes from a crowd known as The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, which consists of immunologists…
who, we learn:
‘Most ACIP members, if not all, have ties to vaccine makers, such that the CDC must grant them waivers from statutory conflict of interest rules.[citation needed] This professional experience contributes toward the development of their immunization expertise, and is the rationale offered by the CDC to justify waivers. The United States Congress has accepted this justification for service on federal advisory committees by experts with conflicts, and has provided for waivers from such prohibitions, under 18 USC § 208, when the need for the individual’s service outweighs the potential for a conflict of interest.
Examples of ACIP conflict of interest issues:
Advisory committee members own patents for vaccines under consideration.
The CDC grants conflict of interest waivers to every ACIP member.
Former committee chair, Dr. John Moldin, owned stock in Merck & Co.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advisory_Committee_on_Immunization_Practices
and so on….
We are expected to take what they day as true: that is its an act of faith by the public.
Experts hate is when others poach on their turf…esp victims…When victims noting causen and effect say such a medicine caused such an illnes they now have the medical reflex is to reject it because they arent MDs. The assumption is always that the experts can be trusted. But from the days of Dr Semmelweiss onward we know this is not so. Women in labor then delivred by doctors with unswashed hands died from purperal fever. Thedse doctors descendents tell us, and edxpect us to believt them, that their latest practices are safe….on their authority.
Meanwhile, the package insert read in the video below says: ‘its not known if H1N1 can cause fetal harm’
at 4:18
Only a child bearing mothers have discovered, it DOES cause fetal harm…miscarriages!
NOW someone is not telling the truth, Steven,. and it looks to be your industry funded ACIP.
Scientists like any male dominated field are control freaks…thats why peoples experice, esp when it contradicts the doctors is derided as ‘anecdotal’.
So as we see:
‘Paul Offit, MD, is Chief, Section of Infectious Diseases and the Henle Professor of Immunologic and Infectious Diseases at The Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia. He is a HOLDER OF A ROTAVIRUS VACCINE PATENT who was part of the team who mandated rotavirus vaccine – you remember that dangerous vaccine that was taken off the market AFTER it had damaged children, NOT before even though they had the information it was dangerous.
Dr. Offit lists that he is a consultant to Merck on an attachment to his OGE 450, but does not disclose whether or not he received any remuneration for his services.
Dr. Offit is a member of the CDC advisory committee and disclosed that he received $350,000 grant money from Merck to develop the rotavirus vaccine, in which he shares the patent, which was pulled 6 months after is was licensed because of severe problems. He gets paid to go around the country teaching doctors that vaccines are safe. (Wall Street Journal).
Dr. Offit began his tenure on ACIP in October of 1998. Out of four votes pertaining to the ACIP’s rotavirus statement he voted “yes” three times, including, voting for the inclusion of the rotavirus vaccine in the VFC program.
Dr. Offit abstained from voting on the ACIP’s rescission of the recommendation of the rotavirus vaccine for routine use. He stated at the meeting, “I’m not conflicted with Wyeth, but because I consult with Merck on the development of rotavirus vaccine, I would still prefer to abstain because it creates a perception of conflict.”
Excerpted From the House of Representatives Gov’t Reform Committee Staff Report
http://www.whale.to/v/staff.html
============================
The members of ACIP are PRO-Vaccine,whether they have ties or not, and many do…The atmosphere is not one of disinterested science..but very interested science.
In politics this would be called Corruption.
Meanwhile, the victims have no such ties, no hidden agendas. Just simple observation…which doesnt take a rocket scientist…
Better luck next time, Steve.
Thanks for the Link, Orac. I like Dr Novella.
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm
I think we know to whom I refer in pasting the above link.
PS: Just wanted to add that yes, I liked all the panelists, including that Gorski fellow.
‘Ferrous Cranus is utterly impervious to reason, persuasion and new ideas, and when engaged in battle he will not yield an inch in his position regardless of its hopelessness’
HMMM! Sounds like those attacking Dr Buttar.
“He is a HOLDER OF A ROTAVIRUS VACCINE PATENT who was part of the team who mandated rotavirus vaccine – you remember that dangerous vaccine that was taken off the market AFTER it had damaged children”
brian, it is not the case that every “rotavirus vaccine” is the same. As you could easily determine by looking just at Wikipedia, the rotavirus vaccine that was withdrawn was RotaShield, from Wyeth, introduced in 1998. The rotavirus vaccine which Dr. Offit developed is RotaTeq, from Merck, introduced in 2006.
Your thinking all rotavirus vaccines are RotaShield is like me thinking everyone named Brian is ignorant, just because you are.
@LW: I was going to respond to brian regarding Dr Offit, but since he actually referenced whale.to as his information, I won’t waste my time. Scopie’s Law has now been invoked.
Re: pregnant women, miscarriages and the flu shot: in all my years working as an obstetrics nurse, midwife and as a woman who has been pregnant 4 times and has 2 children: miscarriages are very frequent. Back in my mother’s day, early miscarriages weren’t identified. They were usually seen as late, heavy periods. Nowadays, with super-sensitive urine pregnancy tests, a woman can know she is pregnant within 1-2 days of her first missed period. If she miscarries, human nature almost demands a cause be assigned (whether true or not).
In fact, intra-uterine fetal deaths still occur, even with today’s technology. Sometimes we can figure out the cause (fetuses strangle on umbilical cords even today), other times all we know is that the baby died. These deaths occur year round, with/without flu vaccines.
Correlation does not mean causation!
I’m spanish, my sister and one of my closest friend are both pregnant and their obstetricians told them, “Don’t take the vaccine is unsafe”. My friend has a kid four years old, and her pediatrician told her the same thing.
Only few people are taking the vaccine because the flu seems very weak, the people who suffered the flu says that is like the stational one, but less severe. There has been a lot of cases between my co-workers and in the schools, and the general feeling is that all has been a false alarm created for the Farma labs to sell more vaccines, and more tamiflú.
I know very little about the flu vaccine, like my friend and sister, but we used to take the advice of the doctors, if they say “Don’t take the vaccine”, they would take the medical advice, because they don’t want to cause any damage to the fetus. I think that there are a real problem of misinformation between the medical class and the patients. And is very difficult to form an accurate opinion on the flu vaccine. Specially when the medical experts say a thing and another medical experts, say the contrary.
(And sorry for my english)
I loved it. Please make a lot more podcasts with that lineup! Maybe every 1 or 2 months?
@DrWonderful
All adverse events that any employee of a drug, biologic (that includes vaccines) or medical device manufacturer must be reported to the FDA by law. For serious, unexpected (meaning not in the labeling) AEs, reports must be made as soon as possible, but no later than 15 days after awareness of the event. All other AEs that don’t fall under that requirement must be reported quarterly for three years from the approval date, then annually after that.
The relevant regulation is 21 CFR 314.80 for drugs and 21 CFR 600.80 for biologics. The timeline for reporting is a little different for devices.
Realizing this is fully anecdotal, I’ve worked at four H1N1 clinics so far (five after tomorrow) seen a couple hundred folks get their shots & none had bad reactions.
Could this be just a coincedence?
I hates anti-vac looneys.
I just had a look at brian’s whale dot to link, and it’s pure anti-vax lunacy from the get-go. When the homepage contains overgeneralized dramatic nonsense about vaccines doing more harm than good, and no one bothering to study children’s immune sytems, ever, you know the site is crap.
Stories like Hel’s, above, are beginning to really concern me. Is it possible that the anti-vaccination idiocy campaign about the H1N1 vaccine being untested/unsafe has reached such a public saturation level that even GPs are being sucked in?
Why on earth do people do this? You look at the people dying — otherwise perfectly healthy adults, pregnant women — and how can anyone even approximately rational and educated come to the conclusion that the vaccine (built as it is on the same template as the standard seasonal flu vaccine) is worse? Obviously that excludes idiots like brian, but how can anyone with two brain cells to rub together to make a spark fail to understand the relative risk? I don’t understand, I genuinely don’t.
The H1N1 vaccine is now available to everyone older than 6 months where I live (York region, north of Toronto). I’ll probably try to get to a clinic this weekend or the next. I definitely want to get vaccinated before I go back to school in January. (I know from experience that diseases spread like wildfire on university campuses)
One thing caught my attention, though: the typical vaccine up here is adjuvanted with squalene, but the Public Health Agency of Canada recommends that pregnant women receive an unadjuvanted dose. The Arepanrix info sheet (link) notes that pregnant women and children under 3 have not been included in clinical trials of the adjuvant. However, the Public Health Agency recommends children between 6 months and 3 years be given two half-doses of adjuvanted vaccine.
Does anybody know why they’re recommending unadjuvanted vaccines for pregnant women? Are they just playing it safe?
Raging Bee, I see you have met the idiocy that is whale.to. Let me introduce you to Scopie’s Law:
And just a reminder: Do not feed the brian troll.
Adrian, don’t worry too much about squalene. As was mentioned in the SGU podcast, your body makes it as a precursor to cholesterol and has been used safely as an adjuvant in Europe for some time.
I realize that (I read RI and SBM daily); I was just wondering why the guidelines are as they are. I.e., has there been a study somewhere showing that squalene may adversely affect pregnant women, and they should therefore take the unadjuvanted vaccine until more trials are performed, or are they just playing it safe due to lack of evidence? This is purely to satisfy my curiosity 🙂
Incidentally, they’re also recommending pregnant women past 20 weeks be given the adjuvanted vaccine if there is no unadjuvanted vaccine available.
Adrian, my guess is that it is safety due to lack of evidence either way.
@Adrian W.
I’m not entirely familiar with the Canadian guidelines, but my guess is that they’re doing it as a precautionary, PR, cover-their-butts measure, similar to some of the reasons thimerosal was removed from U.S. vaccines, despite a lack of evidence of any increased risk. There was a public brouhaha against it, so they took the less-controversial route, rather than following a scientific one. The downside is that such actions lend credence to the hysterical cries.
>>Why on earth do people do this?
Probably because the disease is common enough, and the rate of complications low enough, that everyone knows a bunch of people who’ve had it, but no one for whom it was serious.
It’s the same thing with the antivax argument that measles is harmless. It’s something like 1 in 1000 death rate (that’s not exactly right, but I think it’s in the right order of magnitude) – that’s a lot, a horrible number, over the whole country; but no one knows 1000 children. So everyone’s personal experience with it is “annoying, but insignificant”.
Basically, people have very poor intuition for statistics.
intercostalwaterway:
And most of what people think is influenza is actually a cold, or one of the 500 or so other viruses that float around. Influenza can often knock you off your feet with incredible muscle aches, plus give you a high fever.
A little flu story to go along with what Chris said (#39): my first indication I was getting the flu, last time I got it, was incredible muscle pain. My back hurt so much I thought I had a kidney stone, and (as I believe someone referenced before) even my hair hurt. I couldn’t stand to be touched, I hurt so much, and could not comb/brush my hair without crying. Clinically (or crazy, take your pick), I decided to see one day how high my fever would go if I just drank fluids but took no fever reducing drugs. I monitored my temperature for about 6 hours, but chickened out and took tylenol when it hit 105.8 F with no signs of the fever decreasing. The chills were murder, I could not speak or hold a glass I was shaking so hard. It took about 3 hours for my fever to drop to 101 F after the tylenol, and another 2 days before the fever was gone. I’d lost 8 lbs in 4 days and felt like crap for another week. Not good for a mother of 2 (then) young children.
I’d rather not go through the pain of the flu again. I get the flu shot!
About all these doctors who are supposedly claiming that the flu vax is “unsafe” – I think that they are imaginary. I haven’t heard of or encountered a single MD locally who thinks this – and as a pathologist who is involved in microbiology and infection control, I should have run into a few if they existed.
I also have not heard of any serious reactions to the vaccine in our health region. I know of at least three deaths, and several other patients in the ICU on respirators due to Swine Flu at my hospital alone.
Anecdotal? Yes, but supported by data.
Liz & Bruce: unfortunately at our county health department we have received a handful of reports from local residents that their doctors are telling them the H1N1 vaccine is unnecessary. One doctor has ordered his RNs not to get the nasal spray vaccine because it is a live virus, and according to him they could not work in the clinic for two days after getting vaccinated.
Despite these minor setbacks we have been able to vaccinate over 8k county residents since 10/20 — this number does not include those vaccinated at venues where we distributed the vaccine but did not administer it. Next clinic is tomorrow; we’re going to keep on having them until we run out of vaccine.
LW the issue is the man is a pro-vaccine…so hes not likely to do anything that would jeopardise vaccine program.
squalene: Robster and others need to view this:
at 2:48n where squalene is discussed:
‘Realizing this is fully anecdotal, I’ve worked at four H1N1 clinics so far (five after tomorrow) seen a couple hundred folks get their shots & none had bad reactions.
Could this be just a coincedence?’
Rob: given your pro-vaccine stance, id say id like to see the evidence…Your word is not at all trustworthy.
What are your ties to BIG PHARMA?
‘About all these doctors who are supposedly claiming that the flu vax is “unsafe” – I think that they are imaginary. I haven’t heard of or encountered a single MD locally who thinks this – and as a pathologist who is involved in microbiology and infection control, I should have run into a few if they existed’
depends on the company you keep…
‘According to a recent survey conducted, six out of every ten Italian family physicians do not prescribe the A/H1N1 vaccine for their patients particularly those with heart diseases.
A member of the European Association for Quality in General Medicine(EQUIP), Gianluigi Passerini told L’espresso that he would not advise vaccination for his patients, adding, “This virus is not aggressive and there is no reason to force individuals to get immunized against the virus.”
Mario Nejrotti, the director of torinomedica.com, similarly, stressed that healthcare workers should only be urged to get vaccinated based on the severity and spread of the virus.
He added that a similar vaccine manufactured in the US in 1976 had contributed to a considerable number of cases with a severe neurological disease known as Guillain-Barré syndrome.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=110686§ionid=3510212
“About all these doctors who are supposedly claiming that the flu vax is “unsafe” – I think that they are imaginary. I haven’t heard of or encountered a single MD locally who thinks this”
Ask here in Spain, there are a lot.
‘Annual Flu Deaths: The Big LIE
By Neil Z. Miller
Every year, just prior to the impending âflu season,â the CDC and their acquiescent media pawns terrorize the American public with false claims regarding annual flu deaths. The CDC boldly asserts that 36,000 people die every year from the flu. Such scare tactics are calculated to increase flu vaccine sales. However, according to the CDCâs own official records documented in National Vital Statistics Reports, only a few hundred people die from influenza (flu) on an average year. And many of these deaths occur in people with preexisting conditions, weakened immune systems, and the elderly. For example, in 2002, 753 people died from the flu. The year before, in 2001, just 257 people died from the flu. (Fifty-nine percent of these deaths occurred in people 75 years or older; 75 percent occurred in people 55 years or older.) To put these numbers in perspective, 3,454 Americans died from malnutrition in 2001 â 13 times greater than the number of flu deaths! That same year, there were 4,269 deaths attributed to asthma, a condition some studies have linked to vaccines’
etc
http://www.drbuttar.com/blog/?p=687
ORAC? More like DICKAC.
Friend of mine got a flu shot last month. A few weeks later he was in bed and starting coughing up blood. This never happened before? Why? I guess scientists just want to ignore evidence when it doesn’t agree with their religious beliefs.
“I guess scientists just want to ignore evidence when it doesn’t agree with their religious beliefs.”
A Friend of mine got flu shot last month, a few weeks later she was in bed with Brad Pitt. “Praise my Lord The Vaccine”
Re: 46.
This page explains how annual flu deaths are estimated. Bottom line:
To any readers who may be wondering about brian’s assertions re: the 1976 flu vaccine, please take a look at the flu section of antiantivax.flurf.net for the reality.
“A Friend of mine got flu shot last month, a few weeks later she was in bed with Brad Pitt.”
This sounds like an old vaudeville number.
“I just spent two weeks in bed with acute hepatitis.”
“Which one, you lucky dog? They’re both cute, those Hepatitis girls.”
A Friend of mine got flu shot last month, a few weeks later she was in bed with Brad Pitt.
Oh, ick! I’m definitely not getting the flu vaccine if that’s a side effect!
“Friend of mine got a flu shot last month. A few weeks later he was in bed and starting coughing up blood. This never happened before? Why? I guess scientists just want to ignore evidence when it doesn’t agree with their religious beliefs.”
Are you that stupid?
Do not feed the brian troll.
I doubt it was the flu shot. It was probably whatever he (and you) have been smoking.
I will say it again. Before the offspring got his flu shot, he was only able to walk 7 – 9 steps by himself. After he got his shot, that very day, he was able to take 15 steps. Last night, he walked across the room.
It’s pretty clear. The H1N1 vaccine helps toddlers walk better.
Since one of the foundations of woo is conspiracy, you know what I would like to see? A conspiracy article with this title:
Why does the Alternative Medicine Industry want to kill all Christians?
This industry plays on the religious right’s distrust of science and attempts to steer them all away from safe medicine, and direct them to ‘cures’ that are nothing more than placebos. There’s the conspiracy, it is an attempt to eradicate a nation of Christians!
That would be fun.
I had the swine flu vax back in 1976 (dad taught at Ft. Dix). I’ve had the flu shot every year save one. And that year I didn’t have it, I got the flu, then bronchitis, and then went into status asthmaticus. Spent a few days having a machine breathe for me, and a bit longer in hospital.
I’ll take the flu shot, thanks.
I had the swine flu vax back in 1976 (dad taught at Ft. Dix). I’ve had the flu shot every year save one. And that year I didn’t have it, I got the flu, then bronchitis, and then went into status asthmaticus. Spent a few days having a machine breathe for me, and a bit longer in hospital.
I’ll take the flu shot, thanks.
yes
ZOMG!!! Three days after I got my flu shot, I developed an ingrown toenail!! Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carey are sooo right! Where can I sign up???
[/logical fallacy]
The more of the anti-vacciners’ writings I read, the more I get the horrifying feeling that logic and scientific method have taken a permanent powder with much of the so-called “educated population”.
*headdesk*
A Friend of mine got flu shot last month, a few weeks later she was in bed with Brad Pitt.
Seasonal or swine? I want.
I got the seasonal flu shot a month ago, and the IRS started stealing money from my next disability check. Coincidence? I think not.
‘The more of the anti-vacciners’ writings I read, the more I get the horrifying feeling that logic and scientific method have taken a permanent powder with much of the so-called “educated population”.’
thanks to Jenny and Jim, vaccine victim,Desiree Jennings is recovering after she was sent to a physician who understood her disorder and knew how to treat it.
Had she been in the hands of people like Novella and most regular doctors, shed be a permanent cripple or even dead.
another vaccine victim:He went in trusting in the doctors and their vaccines:
‘SPRINGFIELD – The VA won’t pay for one Marine’s injury.
Lance Cpl. Josef Lopez deployed to Iraq in 2006 when he was 20 years-old. He enlisted in the Marine Corps fresh out of high school and was enthusiastic about serving to protect the lives of others. He never thought that he would almost lose his own life from something as routine as a vaccination.
“I started having trouble walking,” Lopez said. “There was a numbness that started in my feet and gradually worked it’s way up.”
After being overseas only nine days Lopez had trouble with his legs tingling. Literally overnight he was paralyzed. The sensation worked its way up and soon he couldn’t use his arms
etc
http://www.komu.com/satellite/SatelliteRender/KOMU.com/ba8a4513-c0a8-2f11-0063-9bd94c70b769/bd91d06c-80ce-0971-01c1-1e65be782951
sound familiar?
brian, you are aware that the devastating effects came from the smallpox vaccine, right? The vaccine that is not given to civilians anywhere in the world? You do know that smallpox is not flu, right?
Your assumption that all vaccines are the same, and therefore that injury from one indicts all, is like me assuming everyone named Brian is ignorant just because you are.
(Fox video in link)
Desiree Jenningsâ Road to Recovery â Woman disabled by flu shot shows improvements
By Claudia Coffey â Fox 5 â Washington, DC
MyFoxDC.com
Updated: Thursday, 19 Nov 2009, 10:49 PM EST
WASHINGTON, D.C. â Itâs a story that we first brought you on Fox 5 and myfoxdc. A Washington Redskins cheerleader was left disabled by a flu shot. She could barely walk or talk, and her condition was getting worse.
Suffering dozens of seizures a day and her life clearly in danger, she sought the help of a controversial doctor in North Carolina. Desiree Jennings sat down with FOX 5âs Claudia Coffey outside of Charlotte to give us an exclusive look at her road to recovery.
Desiree Jennings was told by some doctors that she would never recover that the damage she suffered from a flu shot was irreversible. But over the last month, she has gone from being on deaths door to seeing that her old life is just within reach
Jennings, 25, never lost hope that this day would finally come.
âIt feels great to be able to smile again,â says Jennings.
The Ashburn, Virginia native is not only able to smile, but she can walk again. These simple steps seemed impossible nearly a month ago when we first introduced you to the
etc
http://www.drbuttar.com/blog/?p=778
LW all vaccines have side effects…the difference lies in the nature of these.
Since you seem to like assumptions:
You assume vaccines have no side effects harmful or otherwise…Clearly your wrong.
“You assume vaccines have no side effects harmful or otherwise…Clearly your[sic] wrong.”
Silly brian. I have pointed out to you that RotaTeq is not RotaShield and smallpox is not flu. From this you deduce that I assume vaccines have no side effects? No wonder your comments are so irrational.
As many people have pointed out to you, vaccination is a medical intervention and all medical interventions have the potential for side effects. The key is to weigh the risks against the benefits (that’s why civilians aren’t vaccinated against smallpox anymore — the risks don’t outweigh the benefits). One must also pay attention to actual risks and actual benefits.
“the risks don’t outweigh the benefits” — ouch, that’s backwards. In the case of smallpox, the benefits don’t outweigh the risks.
When smallpox existed in the wild, the reverse was true, and practically everybody got vaccinated, accepting the small risks of the vaccine against the enormous risk of the disease. I was vaccinated just a few years before the disease was eradicated in the wild, without side effects, but I wouldn’t do it again unless the disease were actually released into the wild again.
Which doctors told her this?
‘As many people have pointed out to you, vaccination is a medical intervention and all medical interventions have the potential for side effects.’
not all…just the ones orthodox medicine is enamored of.
Meanwhile, the public is ignorant of these and terrified by the establishment into taking drugs that can cause harm…thats malpractice.
Millions of people have been harmed by those vaccines in the last two centuries, while there are far safer side effect free alternatives…homeopathy for instance.
As the Desiree jennings story tells us…those side effetcs are wors than the disease she may never have caught…While her treating physician is hounded as was Dr Semmelweiss by by the dunces.
@brian: Alternatives that don’t work, you mean? Because homeopathy is just water. Not that they can’t screw that up too.
Water, BTW, is a “toxin.”
Do not feed the troll.
Since you’re not fond of reading:
I think we owe brian a big, warm, Respectful Insolence Thank-you. Even though he’s obviously a paid shill for “Dr.” NutterButtar, he’s actually making the threads he lurks in better.
Not only do we see a classic troll in action (terrified of directly answering questions, pathetically posting links to ridiculous sites, and continuously making one head-slappingly stupid statement after another), but the careful, reasoned, though useless attempts to correct him do educate us regular folk.
I always leave one of brian’s troll-post threads with a better understanding of the insanity of the anti-science, anti-vaccine, pro-death & disease zombie horde.
And a much better series of arguments to counter their lies.
And, keep in mind that it’s not easy being a pro-disease shill on this site.
Imagine our brian, alone in mom’s dark basement, nibbling his fingernails and furtively muttering to himself as he posts yet another silly link to youtube or whale.to in a pathetic attempt to try and kill more children and make some spare change from “Dr.” Buttarfinger.
So, maybe all brian needs is some understanding and appreciation. C’mon everybody, let’s give a big group-hug to our favorite l’il troll fella!
Whaddya say?
@brian: you know, if you don’t want the flu shots, feel free to not get them. But for god’s sake, don’t breed.
Any wagers on who’ll provide the next Idiotic Comment of the Week? I think we have a front-runner, unless Orac wants something a little more challenging.
Sure, just give me a moment while I put on my HAZMAT suit.
I have no sympathy for brian, sorry.
He’s a troll, he likes to troll, he knows he’s trolling, and he’s probably getting a kick out of his trolling while on the phone with Rashid Buttar, texting J.B. Handley with one hand while using the other to scarfing down homeopathic remedies by the eye dropper full.
You know, sometimes trolls do it for fun. If I was trolling for fun, I would adopt strategies identical to brian’s.
Our response must be to stop feeding.
LW (#64) comments:
There appear to be a great many things that “brian” is not aware of. Unfortunately, he is laboring under the false belief that he knows more than he actually does. This is the classic “Arrogance of Ignorance”.
There is little chance that “brian” will be receptive to learning anything, since he has already convinced himself that he is wise and we – and the medical researchers and doctors – are hopelessly mired in outdated dogma. He’s trapped in a hermetic delusion that has no way out.
Pity him.
Ignore him.
Prometheus
thank you Chris and Prometheus
interestinghow the trolls change the topic from H1N1 vaccine to smallpox…
a-non…homeopathic remedies arent ‘scarfed down’…but then your knowledge of homepathy is even worse than that of vaccination,
‘Pity him.
Ignore him.
Prometheus’
‘First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win.”
— Mahatma Gandhi
Vaccine companies GUILTY of silencing Doctors and PAYING UK POLITICIANS
This explains the attacks on Dr Rashid Buttar and DR Wakefield.
But, Prometheus, the troll’s recent drivelling is instructive.
Notice how it says, “interesting how the trolls change the topic from H1N1 vaccine to smallpox…”, thereby clearly demonstrating that it didn’t read the article and didn’t know that the vaccine in question was the smallpox vaccine, so it thinks I brought up smallpox to change the subject. For the benefit of any lurker, that shows that the troll doesn’t even read its own examples; it really does think all vaccines are alike so any injury by any vaccine indicts all vaccines.
You will note that the troll acknowledged — without quibbling — my statement that many people had told it that we do know that vaccines can potentially have side effects. Next time it claims that we believe they have no side effects, we can point to its own comment.
But most of all, the troll showed its hand: it claims that interventions not approved by “orthodox medicine” have no potential for side effects whatsoever. Chelation, which killed at least one child: no possible side effects. Colloidal silver, which turns people permanently blue-gray: no possible side effects. Ayurvedic remedies compounded with lead and other heavy metals: no possible side-effects.
According to the troll, those who practice “orthodox medicine” have picked out, from all the “far safer side effect free alternatives” that are readily available in the world, all and only those that actively injure people.
This is not merely ignorance and stupidity. This is naked bigotry. As someone enquired on another thread, is there some “Protocols of the Elders of Allopathy” that he’s reading from?
But a lot of times they just ignore and ridicule you.
And to make it worse, lower case brian has such an over inflated sense of its own importance, it cannot even understand when it is being ridiculed.
Check out a-non’s jibe at it. It didn’t even get it and thought a-non was being serious, hence why it thought a-non was being serious.
It has made itself into a joke round here, and evidently everywhere else it goes too.
It even had to resort to a Ghandi quote rather than it’s own reasoning, even though the quote was from a radically different context.
It even fails to have the redeeming feature of being amusing.
LW is of the school that offence is the best defence….
one person dead from chelation, versus thousands from vaccination
EG:
‘”I was told by this preacher that when the government introduced the National Immunization Days in 1997, most of the children after vaccination started dying. The preacher told me that they had so much death that his cassock, that he wears to go and conduct the burial ceremony, got old. He said “I buried the children and my cassock got old.” In the same room there was one mother who had four children, and she hid one and took three other children for vaccination, and three children died and that one survived. Now when I went to do my presentation and I asked most of the people who were there – about two, three thousand people – each person had the same story. ………At the main hospital in Mbarara during that month of 1977 more than 600 children had died following polio vaccination. 600 children ! So even some of the timid medical practitioners who were initially afraid to come out, started coming out giving information and saying ‘Oh, we knew this oral polio vaccine was trouble because as soon as the child receives it, they get a temper-ature and their health goes downhill and there is nothing that you could do.’ “—-Kihura Nkuba (Nov 2002) ‘
http://www.whale.to/a/nkuba_h.html
Troll changes subject again. Polio is not flu.
thought youd be interested in the danger of vaccines…they CAN and have killed many people.
Whale.to?
You’re not even trying.
“they CAN and have killed many people.”
Nobody here denies this. It should do a better job of keeping up.
Funnily enough the only source of that claim is a radio jock from Uganda, and he gets his dates mixed by the order of two decades.
No other sources exist for this claim.
Hint to Bruce: try clicking on the link,,if you have trouble reading,look for a knowledgable 5 year old for help…
‘Nobody here denies this. It should do a better job of keeping up.”
they do…not only that, Nkuba has been targeted for murder…go read his story.
Whale.to’s fiction isn’t even good. No doctors murdered by distraught parents … no doomed rebellion … no families fleeing with dogs and soldiers in pursuit … just parents tamely bringing children in knowing they will be killed.
I could write a more plausible story than that.
LW sounds like a best seller…let us know when you complete it. meanwhile, the deaths of kids in Kenya by vaccination and the attacks on Nkuba are NOT fiction…
“meanwhile, the deaths of kids in Kenya by vaccination and the attacks on Nkuba are NOT fiction…”
Then it’ll have no problem finding a legitimate reference, will it?
It makes the mistake of assuming I have not read the story.
Laughably, if I linked to the multiple refutations of his story, it would dismiss them on the basis of hear’say.
I’d recommend that it stops drinking on saturdays, as it obviously cannot handle the booze that well.
I followed a link to Ms. Jennings’ Facebook page. Apparently Brian Souter is a big fan of this woman. Too bad she is both married and on the other side of the planet from this sad lonely and completely clueless troll.
Well, anyone who links to whale.to like it would be considered as real evidence is automatically considered an idiotic loser troll, so we should not be surprised. Not to mention some other sites I saw his name and profile. So, really stop feeding it.
‘It makes the mistake of assuming I have not read the story.’
Prove you have…
‘Laughably, if I linked to the multiple refutations of his story, it would dismiss them on the basis of hear’say.’
Go ahead…just make sure youre refutations are ‘legitimate’!
another patient killed by the flu vaccine
BeyondEzra wrote:
To Desiree Jennings: My 58 year old mother died just weeks after receiving her “routine” flu vaccine. She fell ill just a few days after and was told it was all in her head. She ended up hospitalized for over three weeks and kept chemically sedated for most of them, until I had to take her off life support and let her die. Her death was blamed on an extremely rare disease with no known cause. Her autopsy was inconclusive as well. I’m so sorry to hear of this happening to you and hope this spreads awareness of the dangers of the flu vaccine. If you read this,…
http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=92345&catid=158
more useful info:
mdicarlo wrote:
I am so sorry this is happening to you Desiree! I have been very reluctant to get a flu shot for myself and my daughter after reading about it here: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2008/11/25/does-the-flu-shot-even-work.aspx
“According to the CDC, the majority of flu vaccines contain thimerosal. Some contain as much as 25 mcg of mercury per dose. This means that it may contain more than 250 times the Environmental Protection Agencyâs safety limit for mercury.
By now, most people are well aware that children and fetuses are most at risk of damage from this neurotoxin, as their brains are still developing. Yet the CDC still recommends that children over 6 months, and pregnant women, receive the flu vaccine each year.
In addition to mercury, flu vaccines also contain other toxic or hazardous ingredients like:
Aluminum — a neurotoxin that has been linked to Alzheimerâs disease
Triton X-100 — a detergent
Phenol (carbolic acid)
Ethylene glycol (antifreeze)
Betapropiolactone – a disinfectant
Nonoxynol – used to kill or stop growth of STDs
Octoxinol 9 – a vaginal spermicide
Sodium phosphate
How Safe is the Flu Vaccine?
Serious reactions to the flu vaccine include, but are not limited to:
Life-threatening allergies to various ingredients
Guillain-Barre Syndrome (a severe paralytic disease that is fatal in about 1 in 20 cases)
Encephalitis (brain inflammation)
Neurological disorders
Thrombocytopenia (a serious blood disorder)
http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=92345&catid=158
and:
‘MarieFlowers wrote:
For more information on vaccines see the website of Dr. Mayer Eisenstein, http://www.homefirst.com for free webinars on vaccines.
Laurie Ramos also had dystonia after exposure to mercury from dental fillings. She went to the Mayo Clinic seeking help and they diagnosed her with “cervical thoracic lumbar dystonia with torticollis and secondary neuromuscular scoliosis, but they didn’t know what caused it.” (Quote from Dental Truth Magazine Spring-Summer 2007 issue.)
Laurie safely removed her mercury exposure through her dental fillings using a SAFE biological dentist and went through chelation (detoxification with a holistic doctor.) She has now improved. She how her muscles pulled her spine out of alignment and caused her neck to rest on her shoulder at http://www.toxicmetals.info/case_laurie.htm.
Mercury poisoning is not a rare disorder. Desiree’s illness was labeled dystonia. Other mercury poisoning illnesses are labeled Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, MS, heart disease, arthritis, digestive problems, Chrones, thyroid disease, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, or any other problem since mercury can travel throughout the whole body causing inflammation, malabsorption of minerals, and displace oxygen in the blood stream. The diseases are varied depending on your genetic weakness for diseases.
Where do I get my information? from neurosurgeon Dr. Russell Blaylock. See his newsletter article “Vaccination and Brain Injuries, Are you at Risk? by subscribing to his newsletters. He has many free articles on his website at http://www.russellblaylockmd.com and has interviews all over the internet.’
http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=92345&catid=158
ejdavid wrote:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/german-soldiers-get-additive-free-swine-flu-shot.html
According to a report out of Germany, German soldiers have been given an additive-free swine flu shot that doesnât contain mercury, squalene, or any of the other dangerous adjuvants associated with the vaccine, raising questions as to why this version of the shot has not been made available to the general population.
An article that when translated is entitled, German soldiers gets non poisonous vaccine, explains how 250,000 German troops have been given a âfriendlyâ vaccine made by Baxter that does not contain âcontroversial mercury-containing additives or preservativesâ.
It appears that there are two versions of the swine flu shot, one for those in the know and another for the general population who trust the government to shoot them up with dangerous toxins that have been linked to autism and other neurological disorders.
Yay! Antifreeze!
Okay, Chris, I’ll quit playing with the troll. Just for you.
Brian,
Some vaccines also contain dihydrogen monoxide. You should look that one up it as it’s really dangerous stuff! In high enough quantities, it can kill.
I really wonder why Orac hasn’t banned him. Or, if he hasn’t quite reached the levels of h*pp*h yet, enacted behavior-based filtering: when he’s been presented with a direct question, delete anything he tries to post that does not answer that question.
A good such question might be: does brian believe that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are “genuine … lectures addressed to Jewish Luciferians” as whale.to claims? If not, then why does he present the site as if it was a credible source?
How about the claim that Scudamore, the owner of whale.to, had his bum burned by a satanic ley line? He also sells his home made cloud busters to help keep them at bay.
“Prove you have”
Already did before it made the request.
It may remember that I called the original source “a Ugandan radio jock”. This is in reference to the original sources posistion as presenter on his own radio programme, something I could not have known without reading the story.
It was asked for a legitimate reference. It failed and tried to cover its failure up with a challenge that it would have known was already answered had it bothered to read posts properly.
It must do better.
It will provide a reference in its next post.
‘I really wonder why Orac hasn’t banned him’
Feldspar…
Maybe he believes in free speech the way you believe in censorship…He could ban u to see how u like it!
Youd also miss some valuable information that may save even your worthless life
‘legitimate’ is a weasel word beloved of censors..it means: ‘sources i approve of’.
Hope you all found the vaccine posts enlightening..i notice you ignored any point by point criticism…That means you agree vaccines can be dangerous.
Ah, it’s making noise again. It still fails to provide any of the facts that it said it could provide, without which it will not be taken seriously.
Bah, despicable troll, your free speech gambit is appalling. We do believe in the *government* not restricting free speech. But anyone has the right to restrict free speech at their private venue. Therefore restricting your hogwash is not censorship by any stretch of the imagination and beneficial if it improves the signal to noise ratio.
No, what ORAC practises may be *tolerance* but it’s not related to free speech sensu stricto.