I hate to revisit this case again. However, some of my readers have sent me links to something that compels me to dig up the rotting corpse of Generation Rescue’s despicable attempt to use the suffering of a troubled young woman to push the idea that vaccines are harmful. I’m referring, of course, to the Desiree Jennings case. As you recall, Desiree Jennings is a 25-year-old woman who claimed to have developed dystonia after receiving the seasonal flu vaccine back in August. Based on the disconnect between her symptoms and what real cases of dystonia look like, discovery of what was very likely her VAERS database report, and the exploitation of this unfortunate young woman by the likes of Generation Rescue and purveyor of autism woo Dr. Rashid Buttar. Basically, the autism biomeddlers produced a custom-made “miracle cure” of this woman in order to make their point.
But it gets worse than that. In fact, the followup reporting last week on this story is definitely in contention for the dubious award of the single worst example of medical reporting for 2009. In fact, it could well be in contention for the single worst example of medical reporting of the decade:
Credulous acceptance of the claim that Ms. Jennings’ condition was caused by the flu vaccine? Check.
Acceptance of Dr. Buttar’s claims without so much as a single challenging question? Check.
“Miracle cure” by a brave maverick doctor who’s been reviled by his profession? Check.
Only the most perfunctory and dismissive (almost sneering, in fact) mention of the skeptical, science-based viewpoint that maybe, just maybe, the story is not what it seems? Check.
If you want an example of what’s wrong with medical reporting in this country, I can’t think of a better example than this right now.
For the antidote, peruse these links:
- Dystonia from a flu vaccine? Almost certainly not.
- Has Desiree Jennings’ VAERS report been found?
- Desiree Jennings “cured” of her “vaccine-induced dystonia”?
- The Dystonia Flu-Shot Case
- Dystonia Case Follow Up
- It’s All In Your Head
- Well That Didn’t Take Long – Another Dystonia Case Follow Up
107 replies on “Desiree Jennings: Worst reporting ever?”
This is pretty much the way the media has handled report the stroke cases after cervical manipulation. Despite there being no evidence whatsoever demonstrating manipulation can actually cause a stroke (and significant evidence which says it cannot) the media reports it over and over again based solely on the “victims” story. The best part is when the reporter interviews the chiropractic and the neurology experts who both agree the stroke was not likely caused by the manipulation, the reporter still slants the story in favor of the “victim.” With the cultural movement toward patient empowerment, one negative side effect will be a ton of sensational misreportig like this.
And troll infection in 3…2…1…
That she can’t talk about the dates of her injury is a clearly psychogenic…this video is pure facepalm.
@scientizzle
Clearly whatever caused the brain damage injured the part of her brain for those dates, but the treatment was not effective for those parts. That explanation makes tons more sense right?
I seem to recall research on chiropractic showing a greater than average level of strokes with routine manipulation in the young. Anyone remember where that was? The overall wasn’t that much higher (as old people get strokes so it got lost in the background until someone checked the data against age)
I find it strange that a woman with dystonia can have severe problems then run a marathon. Its also telling that she has a block talking about that period which manifests physically.
Not really. It is actually hugely unlikely to happen like that as the brain just doesn’t compartmentalise in that way. You are talking about physical damage to an incredibly small set of memories. There is little connection between specific memories in time and physical location.
@superdave
Don’t worry, I got your sarcasm.
@Richard Eis
😉
Sorry, i don’t know most of the posters here as i’m not a regular. I did wonder, but then decided that Poe’s law exists for a reason. Its the law after all.
and where would the internet be today without laws eh?
oh, and someone will come along and make your point again in about an hour…and mean it. They will then accuse us of mocking the afflicted and saying she is making it up.
True, Richard Eis, true. Let’s get our frivolity in now before someone actually comes in (my money’s on brian) to argue that being able to run a marathon is a symptom of “acute mercury poisoning”…
“Dr”Wonderful,
Go read about the subject before you spout off. Short version:
1. Chiropractic neck manipulation certainly can cause strokes. In some cases this can be firmly concluded to be the cause.
2. The responses of chiropractors to smoking gun cases of manipulation-induced stroke are uniformly ridiculous; even taken at face value the claim is “chiropractors are so incompetent and unaware that they don’t notice when a patient is having a stroke right in front of them” which is no recommendation even IF it were a plausible explanation. (Which it is not.)
3. The Spine study that claimed to show there was no such risk was very carefully (and, in all probability, deliberately) designed to minimize its ability to detect such risk. Nevertheless, it still DID demonstrate that the risk is real. The authors then denied their own results.
Actual *good* information on the subject may be found at these links and the references therein:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=1037
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=362
Now, I very much doubt “Dr”Wonderful will actually read them. In fact, my suspicion is that he is himself such a quack, and may very well have killed patients by just such a method.
I bet 5 internets then that Brian will come along and tell us that Dr. Buttars is a maverick and we are all trying to subdue him as part of a big-pharma conspiracy.
But, i’ll bet 50 internets that generation rescue are going to “recruit” Desiree to their team. With a further 20 internets on her being on Oprah.
This kind of stuff is what leads me to avoid local television news like the plague. Every time I hear a teaser for a medical story I just want to scream – “New breast cancer screening recommendations and why they have some patients so angry. Details at 11!” But there are never any details, or any information at all. The entire story will be a breast cancer survivor jogging or something, and then tearfully telling us about how she almost died, and then playing with or feeding her children, and about 3 seconds from a doctor who would have something to say if he got more than 3 seconds. Argh.
Hurrah for Fox news! Only a matter of time i suppose…
anyway, I think this might all be one of the greatest Sokal-type hoaxes evah! at least i hope it is…
Well, it’s got my vote for worst medical reporting of the year, and that’s a big deal for a year that saw the swine flu pandemic and a change in breast cancer screening guidelines.
What’s really kind of heartbreaking is the utter failure of the reporters to portray what a psychogenic disorder is. Ms. Jennings’ case is a textbook case of a conversion disorder. (See comment #3.) But a psychosomatic disorder is still a completely real problem that the sufferer has no control over. The etiology and treatment are profoundly different but the suffering is real. To blow off the idea of a psychosomatic disorder as a “hoax” or something she is “making up” is cruel to Ms. Jennings (in no small part because it leads her to turn to quacks like “Dr.” Buttar) and to the greater mental health community.
one more note for the bad reporting score, she ran an 8k, not a marathon. That’s about 5 times shorter than a marathon.
I don’t know why anyone is surprised that reporters won’t question Dr. Buttar….After all, HE’S WEARING A LAB-COAT!
Hey, Richard, how much is “an internet” worth, because I’ve found great swaths of it to be completely devoid of value. Don’t use up your fortune all at once. 😉 But, then, those really are pretty safe bets.
Currently reading Denialism by Michael Specter. It came out last month year and seems to be a pretty good book about how and why people just don’t listen to the mounting evidence of scientific research in topics including the lack of connection between vaccines and autism (spoiler: denialists are invested in one way of thinking and there is a modicum of perceived conspiracy, all across a backdrop of an eroding level of trust in scientists, if not science).
http://www.amazon.com/Denialism-Irrational-Thinking-Scientific-Threatens/dp/1594202303
nitramnaed:
http://images.google.ca/images?gbv=2&hl=en&safe=off&sa=1&q=doctors+smoke+camels&btnG=Search+images&aq=f&oq=&start=0
He may be wearing a lab coat, but he can’t be a doctor cause he doesn’t smoke the same cigarettes as me.
What, no link to my story whereby I started this whole ball of wax rolling? At least, that’s how I feel from the comments I get.
Brian is still around? I went over to his youtube page and slapped him a couple of times. He pretty much left me alone after that.
Scott- you failed to prove anything, other than how ignorant you are when it comes to spinal manipulative therapy and the chiropractic profession. Quick quiz…of the number of cases where stroke is reportedly associated with manipulation how many were attributed to chiropractors and how many to osteopaths, physical therpaists and MD’s?
Also, did you know that this particular type of stroke is actually less frequent in the chiropractic patient population than it is in the general population? The frequency is about the same in a primary care medical practice. If chiropractors were causing strokes wouldn;t you see an actual jump in the numbers? You still have not provided one shred of evidence that spinal manipulative therapy when performed by a chiropractor, osteopath, MD or physical therapist can lead to a stroke. Why do you not include these other professions in your baseless attack on what is essentially just a physical medicine procedure? They do the same thing you know and in increasing numbers because of how effective it is? Why do you single out the one profession that has been doing better and with a higher level of proficiency than anyone else? Are you biased an discriminatory?
All evidence you have provided is based on anecdotal testimony. I have doubts that you even understand the most basic fundamental biomechanical aspects of SMT but yet you are an expert on it’s alleged very rare side effects? Shockingly brilliant you must be.
Also I wonder why you would put quotes around my title of Dr? Do you doubt I have a doctorate?
LOL. Thanks for proving you didn’t follow and read the links.
I don’t particularly doubt that some school has given you a degree it calls a doctorate. However, in this context your use of the title Doctor appears to be a claim to some expertise in medicine; a DC most emphatically does not qualify.
Dr. Wonderful: “Also I wonder why you would put quotes around my title of Dr? Do you doubt I have a doctorate?”
Dr. Wonderful: “The best part is when the reporter interviews the chiropractic and the neurology experts who both agree the stroke was not likely caused by the manipulation, the reporter still slants the story in favor of the “victim.”
If I had to choose between which was more objectionable, putting quotation marks around “Doctor” (you didn’t identify yourself as any kind of practitioner in your initial post) or placing quotation marks around “victim”, I’d choose the latter. Are you really expecting a sympathetic response by denigrating victims of strokes?
There are in fact many neurologists who’ve seen first hand the strokes caused by chiropractic neck cracking, including the neurology professor (Dr. Kazmi) quoted in this story about the chiropractic-induced stroke suffered by this woman, Christa Heck:
“According to Heck’s medical records, the chiropractor’s neck adjustment left a 4.5-centimeter tear in her left vertebral artery, one of four pathways that control blood flow to the brain (the others are the right vertebral artery and the left and right carotid arteries). Extreme or abrupt twisting of the neck can damage the inner layer of these arteries, creating a blood clot. If the clot travels north, it can cut off blood flow to part of the brain—the definition of a stroke. In fact, Dr. Kazmi believes Heck had two strokes, one the day after her first neck adjustment, and another immediately following her second. “The damage was done after the first manipulation, then she started throwing clots,” he says.”
The story also cites a 2003 study published in Neurology, which found that chiropractic neck manipulation was an independent risk factor for this type of stroke (people with strokes due to arterial tears were 5 times more likely to have had recent neck manipulation than those with other types of strokes).
Sorry to say, the medical literature (which details only a limited percentage of the arterial tear-induced strokes thought to actually occur) cites chiropractors in numerous cases. You can’t pretend that the problem is due to neck manipulation by non-chiropractors.
Forceful neck manipulation is right up there with chelation and other “biomedical” interventions for autism – scant to no evidence of efficacy for any medical condition, and the potential for severe harm or even death.
If Dr. Wonderful is doing neck cracking in his practice, he’s not all that different from “Nutter” Buttar.
But..But..Chiropractors are part of alternative medicine not Science based medicine how can they damage their patients, this is impossible. Quick Brian defend your fellow medics
(Sarcasm)
“If you want an example of what’s wrong with medical reporting in this country, I can’t think of a better example than this right now.”
I can….this site is a primary example.
@25 Explain please, or we cannot improve
andrew, that is a common troll that always changes its nickname, never says anything substantial, and just spews insults. We just ignore and call it “Sue.”
…or Silly Sue.
The latest “scoop”. Founded it on HuffPo.
Any comments?
http://www.thecenternj.com/lifesciences.html
The HuffPro page uses the words creativity and balance just a few too many times to make any sense. I’ll wait for the more rigorous report from those with the time and education to do so but I call ‘crap’. Looks like a prelude to selling supplements.
Holy Crap! Did anyone else follow the link from Josephius? The “Full Anouncement Regarding Autism”? Apparently it isn’t the mercury in vaccines that causes autism, it’s “hydrolzed gelatin”!!!!!! Do you realize what this means? It’s not Big Pharma that’s responsible for all of this, it’s Big Jell-o! I think we should go find Bill Cosby right now and make him answer for being the Big Jell-o shill responsible for this rise in autism. Who’s with me?
Danergous Scott’s Bacon- alllll anecdotal. All demonstratng significant bias and discrimination and easily defeated in an objective analysis. Show me the controlled studies please….
For the record, the “victim” was in quotations because they purport to be just that…a “victim” of chiropractic abuse. The fact that they suffered a stroke is not in in dispute. The assumption it was the manipulation that caused the stroke is completely without merit.
Isn’t it funny when an announcement this big is not in any major peer-reviewed journal (such as Science or Nature) but, instead, is posted on “News” websites (including HuffPo)? Don’t they have anyone there than can discriminate between real and bullshit sources of information?
Gelatin (collagen)…the most abundantly expressed protein in animals is driving the dysregulation of glycine and glutamate, resulting in a system-wide failure that produces specific behavioral deficits described as ASDs. This whole time, it was right under our noses…and on our plates.
Gelatin causes autism? What am I supposed to bring to my sister-in-law’s Thanksgiving dinner if cranberry/orange jello mold is now taboo?
(No snark from you sophisticates out there who don’t like cranberry-orange jello mold, now).
Doc Wonderful: “Danergous Scott’s Bacon- alllll anecdotal. All demonstratng significant bias and discrimination and easily defeated in an objective analysis. Show me the controlled studies please….”
Let’s see…all we have to do is recruit suitable patient populations, randomly assign them into groups getting either standard medical care or forcful chiropractic neck cracking for their neck/back/headache problems (or whatever else chiros think neck cracking is good for), and also figure out a way to do sham neck manipulation as a proper control for the “real thing”. I see considerable procedural and ethical problems with such a study; the ethical basis foundering on the potential for severe harm and lack of clinical utility from neck cracking.
I can comprehend but not excuse your evident contempt for the “victims” of chiropractic-induced stroke. How dare they assume that violent neck manipulation was what tore their cervical arteries and caused their strokes, simply because they were healthy beforehand and suffered stroke symptoms immediately upon or shortly after neck cracking? They must have had defective anatomy, or suffered devastating arterial injuries through normal daily activities, or whatever the chiropractic association’s latest excuse is.
This problem is typically seen with a number of alt med therapies – proponents can’t accept that a treatment lacking proven medical benefit should have NO serious side effects. Chiropractic neck cracking doesn’t meet that standard.
One of the physicians quoted on the subject of such injuries said it succinctly: Don’t let a chiropractor near your neck.
Yeah, that’ll get by an IRB. Also, imagine trying to recruit subjects for that study:
Wanted: Subjects Willing To Have a Stroke for Science.
@Dangerous Bacon,
Damn you! You’re fast.
Dangerous Bacon- again proving your ignorance on the subject of spinal manipulative therapy you make two critical errors in judgement. Blind assumptions, actually.
Cervical manipulation is not violent in any way and there is ample evidence that the force generated from such a procedure simply cannot actually tear the artery. In order to tear the artery the force generated would need to exceed nearly 9 times the amount generated from a standard manipulation. There also would be significant collateral damage to the surrouding structures which never appears on imaging in this purported cases. Most neurologists and neurosurgeons who have comments on the cases have felt this way. The few stray MD’s who have no clue are the one’s corraled into the anecdotal evidence presented by those who have conspired and organized this illegal slander campaign against chiropractors.
The other assumption you have made is that spinal manipulative therapy is without any benenfit. Millions of patients a year get significant relief from neck pain, headaches, carpal tunnel, disc injuries, etc from SMT. Thi is shown to be safer, more effective, and less costly than medical procedures for the same conditions.
Also, you seem assume that spinal manipulative therapy is a procedure that only chiropractors perform? Again, you’ll need to check the facts as many physical therapists, MD’s and Osteopaths use it to treat the same types of musculoskeletal conditions.
In fact, of the reported cases of presumed stroke after spinal manipulative therapy a full 96% of them are related to the procedure after a PT, DO or MD performs it. Meanwhile chiro’s perform 90% of the SMT and are accused of only 4% of the injuries. If that’s the case, and it is, the MD who is quoted in the anecdotal evidence is clueless. I’d say the DC is the safest best there is. Or you could have an epidural, or surgery, or live on pain meds? Please get off your biased high horse and get a clue, you are making a fool out yourself with these thin arguments.
Chiropractors are very safe, effective, less costly, well educated, and here to stay. Deal with it. Evertytime you creeps mount this type of slander campaign it only strengthens the profession and splashes up in your faces. Either you are part of it yourself or are too clueless to fight your way out of your own pre-conceieved biases.
Dangerous Bacon – it was clearly delayed vaccine injury! Or something like that.
I really admire the way you set the bar here. Any claims of danger require an RCT, but claims of benefit are to be accepted based on word of mouth.
It’s sad to see that Dr. Wonderful is falling off into the deep end of crazy.
“The few stray MD’s who have no clue are the one’s corraled into the anecdotal evidence presented by those who have conspired and organized this illegal slander campaign against chiropractors.”
OOOoooo, an illegal conspiracy against chiropractors! I sense that Doc Wonderful may be delusional, or affiliated with the World Chiropractic Association, or both (the two possibilities are not mutually exclusive).
Um, the neurologists are not on your side, Doc. Here’s a newly published review in the journal European Neurology, which has the following conclusions:
“(1) There is little evidence on the specific beneficial therapeutic effects of spinal manipulation (for neck pain).
(2) Evidence shows an association between spinal manipulation and mild adverse effects as well as with serious complications including dissection of cervical arteries most commonly involving the vertebral arteries.
(3) Specific risk factors for cerebrovascular complications such as cervical artery dissection and stroke related to spinal manipulation have not been identified yet. For this reason any patient may be at risk, particularly those younger than 45 years.
(4) Patients undergoing spinal manipulative therapy should be informed of the risk of stroke or vascular injury from this procedure.
(5) The diagnosis of a cerebrovascular complication should be seriously taken into consideration in patients presenting with recent onset vertigo and loss of balance, and anamnesis should inquire about any recent spinal manipulations.
(6) Further research is required to examine both the possible benefits and harms associated with cervical spine manipulation.”
Dunno where you’re getting the figures on which practitioners are causing the injuries, strokes and occasional deaths from neck cracking, but it’s the medical profession that’s been sounding the alarm regarding this procedure and chiropractors who are in deep denial and bleating about conspiracies.
I wonder what sort of informed consent these guys get before neck manipulation, assuming there’s any at all.
“There’s an incredibly tiny miniscule practically invisible chance that you’ll become permanently disabled when we crack your neck, though it’s really those evil MDs and physical therapists who cause this problem and not us virtuous chiros. Those strokes that began in chiropractors’ offices are sheer coincidence! Why, you could rip your vertebral artery to shreds just turning your head to talk to someone. And even though there are far safer, effective methods to treat neck pain, like gentle mobilization, exercise and medication, we’re staying with neck cracking. Help us defeat the Evil Medical Conspiracy, sign here!”
No thanks.
“Cervical manipulation is not violent in any way and there is ample evidence that the force generated from such a procedure simply cannot actually tear the artery. In order to tear the artery the force generated would need to exceed nearly 9 times the amount generated from a standard manipulation. There also would be significant collateral damage to the surrouding structures which never appears on imaging in this purported cases.”
Perhaps you can enlighten as to your sources, or at least provide some calculations which allow you make this assertion. Furthermore, how does this alleged lack of force necessary to cause vertebral artery dissection account for brain embolism resulting from the manipulation.
Thanks for playing, guys. You’ve been very helpful as usual!
Uhhhhhh the fact that when she talks about her disorder and when it took place her voice changes should cue everyone in that it’s psychogenic condition. Jesus Christ…
My son was normal but then, the horror began .
And then the evil Drs gave us the jello death shot .
And thank YOU for the citations, Dr. “Wonderful”!
Did I get the quotation marks in the right place?
“Dr. Wonderful: There also would be significant collateral damage to the surrouding structures which never appears on imaging in this purported cases. Most neurologists and neurosurgeons who have comments on the cases have felt this way.”
I would be glad to refer you to my brother, who would gladly show you his MRIs and CTs from March 2009. I think the neurologists, neurosurgeons, cardiologists, etc. who treated him for his stroke – that violently occurred at the moment the chiropractor adjusted his neck, in the office on the table – would laugh in your face. (And, yes, it was violent. The adjustment might not have been a violent “move” or thrust, but the injury was. The violent seizures and vomiting and vertigo and loss of speech and BLINDNESS and ringing in the ears and EXTREME sensitivity to touch of any kind was violent.)
You would rather insult those who disagree and offer arguments against your OBVIOUS bias – the same type of bias you despise in those who think you’re deluded.
It’s easy for you to make your arguments using your “research”. You’ve clearly not visited the ICU with a neurologist who is treating a chiropractor-stroke victim. Give it a shot. Make friends with a neurologist and ask to go along on rounds. Ask them what their prognosis usually is.
In previous years, I had visited chiropractors many times for many issues. I will not say that I will not see one again. But I will NOT allow anyone to manipulate my neck for any reason.
By the way, before you start slinging mud at my brother, he was 42, EXTREMELY healthy and athletic, no cardiovascular risk factors. The chiropractor said that he needed his C3 adjusted because it was 1mm off. He suffered a significant stroke in his vertebral and carotid arteries. He is on cumidin (sp? too tired to Google it) and has a pacemaker (due to brain damage that was causing his heart to stop in his sleep). He has memory loss and spatial and balance issues. He is no longer able to do the sports he was accustomed to. He has 4 children and a wife who are concerned about him because the dissection has still not healed and may require vascular surgery.
Talk to him. Tell him your arguments. Look at his films. You’ll see damage to the surrounding tissues and areas. He can even show you the x-rays from before the stroke.
Dr. Wonderful – your love for chiropractic care is misguided. I hope you and no one you love is ever injured by a chiropractor. You’ll certainly change your tune.
I did.
KSC @ 47: Thank you for having the courage to share this.
Okay, I couldn’t make it through the first two times I tried but I steeled myself and this time made it through the whole segment. And I can only agree. Since when did organic conditions delimit themselves by date?
I suppose next she’ll discover that she can talk freely about Jenny McCarthy, Jim Carrey, JB Handley and everyone else who helped her on her way to fame, but that her speech is suddenly violently impaired if anyone asks her who the doctors were that alleged diagnosed her with dystonia in the first place and why she won’t allow them to speak for themselves about their diagnoses…
Courage? KCS @ 47 is just another story teller who added another anecdote that totally lacks any real credible evidence. Yes, the story is sad and compelling, however, it remains completely unsubstatiated and most likely is false, but will fall right into that little pre-determined place in your brains where you want it to fit. This is the point of ORAC’s blog post today if you’ll recall.
Um, wait… did the not-DrWonderful actually post real citations? I seemed to have missed them. Or are we just supposed to believe him because he said so.
I once again call b.s. on the whole Desiree Jennings thing.
Considering being a cheerleader – even in the NFL – isn’t exactly a lucrative profession, I wonder how much the GR crew will end up paying her to be a spokesperson for “recovery from vaccine injury”. I can’t imagine it’ll be as much as they pay/funnel to David Kirby, but it’ll be enough to get her by, I bet. And besides, she’ll get to hobnob with A-listers like Jim Carrey!
[Slightly off topic]
Excellent show tonight on CBC’s documentary series The Passionate Eye, titled “Catching Cancer.” The role of viruses and bacteria “as hidden trigers” for cancers is discussed; also, the potential of vaccines/antibiotics in preventing/treating cancers. Here’s the link to the show’s website:
http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/passionateeyeshowcase/2009/catchingcancer/
Oracs latest post is full of sound and fury, signifying malice and despair…
Yes, Orac and his clones are so upset at the aid of GR and Desirees cure by Dr Buttar, that the idea of freedom to choose your own therapy has led to a vicious attack on her saviours and so on her.
‘attempt to use the suffering of a troubled young woman to push the idea that vaccines are harmful’
This cry is pure invention. Its not true at all…but when the facts are against you, why you invent and lie and lie so that your persistance persuades the ignorant.
Thanks god for GR..Desiree herself is thankful. Thats all that matters..not the f surgeons. Your brazen assertion that GR has exploited Desiree reads as a cry of desperation, in that your world is now a little shakier.
But for GR she would still be disabled…something you are quite unconcerned with…your concern is either hypocrisy or dangerous psychotic break.
‘Only the most perfunctory and dismissive (almost sneering, in fact) mention of the skeptical, science-based viewpoint that maybe, just maybe, the story is not what it seems? ‘
The simple truth is so upsetting it cant be true..Such is the malign power of faith: in vaccines and orthodox medicial tyranny.
Your faith in vaccines and their safety is rock solid…But Desiree knows from experience its all a lie.
Her story is arousing real scepticism as to the safety of this vaccine …that is what worries you…
Not a ‘miracle’ cure: that word has been purloined by orthodox medicine, with its ‘miracle’ drugs and god-like doctors…
BUT what is most disturbing about Oracs howl of anguish is this: his attacks on GR and DR Buttar, while carefully avoiding striking Desiree…unethical unconsciousable and in the end despicable…SHE IS THE ONE WHO GOT AWAY
It will be interesting to hear what Desiree has to say about your post when i show it to her. You can be sure she will be outraged at your arrogance.
Orac is not her physician yet he acts as if he is…that the very man who is doing what he could never do: cure her, should not be treating her a tall, and be replaced by a stooge with fine beside manners
Could you have cured her Orac? With what: a lobotomy? No way..had she fallen into your hand she be disabled still and probably dead.
Thisn has to be one of the most arrogant and deranged posts ive seen. BUT it is revealing of the tyranny at the heart of orthodox medicine
That she can’t talk about the dates of her injury is a clearly psychogenic…this video is pure facepalm.
Posted by: Scientizzle | November 23, 2009 9:49 AM
=========================
more unethical long distance diagnosis by avery biased person…whod be be diqualified from practising medicine by this behavior.
========================
‘I don’t know why anyone is surprised that reporters won’t question Dr. Buttar….After all, HE’S WEARING A LAB-COAT!
Posted by: nitramnaed | November 23, 2009 12:37 PM
======================
The irony,,,the science freaks are upset that a man in a lab coat is not questioned…but isnt that the attitude u expect of science? Dr Buttar has questioned YOUR toxic science and youre upset LOL
The violation of medical ethics here is illluminating…Not one person her has examined, yet all claim to know whats wrong…That ORAC and others have ventured long distance diagnoses should disqualify them from practin medicine.
GR sent her to DR Buttar, who DID examine her and carried out tests…If you tried to say what youe said and do what you wish to any regular doctor, youd be in serious trouble..
once again, all this fire and bellyaching underscores the importance of Desirees illness and recovery….
Oh,and all this al of ‘psychogenic’ by persons whove never seen a case in their lives…
Why the need for baby gloves? 300 million Americans and you’re saying not one of them would fake “dystonia” after a flu shot?
Come on man, have a little cynicism.
are u claiming Desiree is faking, Doazic?
I think an improvement to this site would be putting the name at the top of the comment, that way when we see a comment from brian we can just roll our eyes and skip to the next one…
He might as well go the way of H*pp*h if he’s going to continue with the crap flooding. At this point he’s not even trolling. He’s just polluting my screen.
Dr wonderful:
‘With the cultural movement toward patient empowerment, one negative side effect will be a ton of sensational misreportig like this. ‘
except this is not misreporting…its good followup reporting, which was bound to antagonise the zealots as well as BIG PHARMAS money men.
===================
‘ think an improvement to this site would be putting the name at the top of the comment, that way when we see a comment from brian we can just roll our eyes and skip to the next one…
Posted by: Ramel | November 24, 2009 6:42 AM
yes, save me wasting time on your trash
…good idea..
Joseph C: truth as pollution….
Orac, who appears to exempt Desiree, the victim, from his general scourge, may like to note shes smiling and chatting with Dr Buttar…not the sort of behavior youd expect given her recent trauma or someone in the hands of an unprincipalled ‘quack’…
Orac would rescue her from this condition and plunge her back into her palsied state in order to rescue vaccination…
nice one!
“I hate to revisit this case again”
But we love it when you get dogged! And good news. I can access you from work again (along with Jerry Coyne). it must have been an aberration.
Dammnit Brian, you forgot the evil pharma conspiracy.
Depending on the date, she may not be saying very much…
bugger, the top quote should be -This has to be one of the most arrogant and deranged posts ive seen. BUT it is revealing of the tyranny at the heart of orthodox medicine-
Its also clear that Brian doesn’t know what deranged means.
Which is quite ironic.
i cant believe im saying it about FOX, but this is some of the best reporting ever: from the initial vaccine revelations to the followup of her recovery…Theyve done Desiree and the public a great service…even if thyve upset a few applecarts along the way.
Deranged , Rich, is where a rational mind draws irrational conclusions (or refuses to confront conclusions) about events it finds too painful to contemplate: that vaccines cause REAL ORGANIC injuries; and that these can be remedied by methods despised by most vaccine promoters…because it involves the unpleasant notion that bodies can be damaged by TOXINS in ‘medicines’.
===
‘Depending on the date, she may not be saying very much…
Posted by: Richard Eis | November 24, 2009 7:20 AM
Had she taken your advice, Rich, shed be saying nothing…she be a permanent spastic.
Brian is like some obnoxious child that keeps interupting while the grown ups talk, he has an annoying habbit of trying to take over what should be interesting conversations and spamming them with some of the most idiotic drivel this blog has ever had to suffer. At least h*ppeh was vaguely entertaining in his own barking mad way.
Actually she would have been treated for her psychosomatic condition. Which, given her difficulty with the date should pretty much convince anyone that this would be a more accurate diagnosis. And no Brian, psychosomatic does not mean she is hoaxing.
The idea that doctors believe medicines “don’t” have side effects is laughable. Everything you put in your body has a toxicity level. Water, oxygen…vitamins. Everything.
It is a matter of dosage and risk vs benefit.
Your understanding of medicine is that of a misinformed 5 year old.
The arrogance of ignorance is immense here. When you lack basic literacy, you should work on that before you move on to more advanced things like science or medicine. There are probably some jealousy issues at work as well since he surely knows he’s not exactly professional school material.
I suspect brian is earning intern points from AoA or GR by posting his drivel here. As Ramel said, skipping his posts is the easiest way to stay focused on the conversation.
I also suspect Ms Jennings exploitation as anti-vax shill is, in part, to balance all the Big Pharma shills they believe work here…or somewhere. They were missing their piece of the shill pie.
Richard Eis…I’m not sure if anyone formally took your bets in comment #11, but brian came through for you.
As far as I can tell, you should get 5 of these! It may take a bit longer for the next 70, but I think you’ve got great odds…
-Richard Eis…I’m not sure if anyone formally took your bets in comment #11, but brian came through for you.-
I’m afraid not. He didn’t specifically mention “big pharma”. I was damn close though. Oprah will come through for me i’m sure. She is where the big money is. Internets too.
The July/August 2009 issue of Skeptical Inquirer includes an article entitled, “Chiropractic Neck Manipulation and Informed Consent,” written by retired chiropractor Samuel Homola. I think it’s currently only available in print. I don’t recall details, but my impression (being a laydude) is that research concludes that the neck manipulations can cause stroke or death.
I realize I wasn’t very helpful here, but maybe someone with access to the article (I already recycled my copy of the magazine) can provide some details.
You think Brian’s rants here are bad. You should look at his youtube page. No wonder he calls himself “jalousbrian” over there… Jealousy of the ability to spell-check. Brian, may recommend Firefox and it’s in-form spell-checking? Just sayin’.
I notice “Dr.” Wonderful uses a standard bluffing technique common among con-artists: demanding his critics provide certain informatin, with the implied pretense that he already has it and knows it supports his arguments:
Quick quiz…of the number of cases where stroke is reportedly associated with manipulation how many were attributed to chiropractors and how many to osteopaths, physical therpaists and MD’s?
Of course, if all that information supported “Dr.” Wonderful’s hyperventilating defense of chiropractic care, he’d be offering it himself. But since it doesn’t, all he can do is put a brave face (or at least a disconcertingly smug face) on it, and pretend to be on top of things by demanding that others do his homework for him.
And no, I’m not totally against chiropractors: I know several people who have benefitted greatly from HONEST and COMPETENT chiropractors (none of them had the neck thing done though). Obnoxious trolls like “Dr.” Wonderful do that profession more harm than good.
I wonder if Brian actually believes what he’s saying. His comments are so far from reality (and show a gigantic misunderstanding of the scientific method) that he comes across to me as a parody of that viewpoint.
attacking a disabled woman and the doctor who is aiding her, shows both a mean spirit and an very unhippocratic attitude to sickness.
Again the hysterical response is proof of the importance of Desirees story.BIG PHARMA adn the sickness establishment are really worried, that they are losing customers.
Dr. not-at-all Wonderful.
It is very compelling because it is TRUE. It is fact. It is a very unfortunate REALITY.
Instead of considering the validity of an opposing argument and very factual and verifiable claims, you call someone a liar.
We are arguing with a STOP sign. Dr Wonderful knows only one thing. We are wasting our time with him.
Dr. Wonderful, you need to get a life outside your chiropractor clique. Your “reality” is not the reality of the rest of the world. When you realize this, you’ll stop annoying the rest of us who are struggling to deal with lives that have been devastated by chiropractic “care.”
A chiropractor nearly killed my brother in March 2009. You can deny it all day, it no less true. It only makes you a fool when you do so.
I’m going away now. I have a Thanksgiving week to prepare for my family who is thankful that my BROTHER did NOT die because of that chiropratic cervical spinal manipulation.
I am not thankful that I am aware of Dr. not-at-all Wonderful’s existence. His presence and perpetuation of crapola is why more people will be injured or killed by chiropractors.
Final words: NO ONE SHOULD EVER HAVE THEIR NECK ADJUSTED FOR ANY REASON BY ANYONE, REGARDLESS OF THEIR “TRAINING” OR “QUALIFICATIONS” OR ANY LETTERS FOLLOWING THEIR NAME.
“Worst Reporting Ever?”
Not sure about that
OK, I’m going to call Poe as of #51 on “Dr. Wonderful” (yeah, the handle should have been definitive except — Poe’s Law.)
The rhetorical style even reminds me of Jerry Kolnick, aka “Dr. Richard X. Frager,” aka “Sir Arthur C.B.E. Wholeflaffers” and probably other nyms.
I do believe Orac may recall Jerry from years back.
@Richard Eis: I’m afraid not. He didn’t specifically mention “big pharma”. I was damn close though. Oprah will come through for me i’m sure. She is where the big money is. Internets too.
…No, no, no. Comment 63 totally gives you the “big pharma” win. Enjoy your internets, sir!
@60
I’m not saying she is. I’m saying that it’s more likely. I fully understand that psychogenic doesn’t mean that she’s faking. But there’s no need to invoke a psychogenic disorder as the cause when the simplest, and therefore most likely explanation is fraud.
Except that if you were going to commit fraud by pretending that you had dystonia, wouldn’t you study the disorder and figure out how its symptoms typically present? Wouldn’t you try to present as “typical” a case as possible? Would you insist on all sorts of improbable curlicues to your alleged disorder such as “my symptoms go away when I walk backwards” and “I talk normally now except about a specific time period”? It’s possible that she’s just very incompetent at faking the presentation of dystonia, in which case she’s a match for “Nuttar” Buttar who’s incompetent at faking the presentation of a medical professional from this century. But I would suggest that the very terribleness with which she’s faking suggests that she is not consciously faking at all.
‘A chiropractor nearly killed my brother in March 2009. You can deny it all day, it no less true. It only makes you a fool when you do so.’
He can as u dont show evidence you even have a brother.
Meanwhile, vaccine almost killed Desiree….and polio vaccines have killed 600 ugandan kids, as i posted elsewhere.
psychogenic means nothing…its just a label, by means of which the labeller gains control of the patient.
What she has is a real organic condition, treatable by detox methods…The ‘psychogenic’ label may make the quacks feel ok, but it wont cure Desiree
-…No, no, no. Comment 63 totally gives you the “big pharma” win. Enjoy your internets, sir!-
You are right, i missed that. He mentions big pharma again anyway. The internets…they are mine.
-attacking a disabled woman and the doctor who is aiding her, shows both a mean spirit and an very unhippocratic attitude to sickness.-
We are so vewy vewy mean. The fact that Buttar uses techniques that haven’t passed basic testing procedures is neither here nor there apparently.
Brian, Buttar couldn’t make a dent in the people going to evidence based doctors if he tried. It would be like squealing over losing a skin cell. Your hysteria has, however, been noted.
The only record Jennings shows in the video interview is from Fairfax Inova and it has no mention of dystonia.
There’s still no evidence Jennings was ever diagnosed with dystonia, or that she was diagnosed at Johns Hopkins.
Simply because she or anyone else makes those claims is not evidence.
Hers is a very strange case – able to walk backwards normally, but not forwards. And now she can talk normally, except when talking about specific events.
Is there any evidence that this is anything but psychogenic?
Whatever Dr. Buttar did seems to have worked, but that doesn’t mean his made-up diagnosis is correct. A saline drip could just as well have done the trick.
http://www.drbuttar.com/dj/
dr Buttar speaks on Desiree,his therapy,and we get to see Des at his clinic in the early stage.
Give him the Nobel Prize for medicine
The fact that Dr Buttars therapy has worked proves his approach is correct., Sanjiva.
Bill is still stuck at the evidence stage…if he was in charge , she’d be dead by now.
Must…not…feed…troll
Must…feed troll until it pops.
I would expect Buttars “therapy” to work if her condition is psychogenic. I am still waiting to see this amazing proof that she ever had dystonia.
I also can’t help noticing a lack of interest in getting money from the vaccine injury fund. I wonder why? I’m sure Buttars isn’t working for free.
-Give him the Nobel Prize for medicine-
Perhaps. When he shows that his treatments actually work better than placebo under double-blind testing. Or are even necessary.
I found this on the Desiree Jennings blog and thought of Brian :
IIRC, Dr. Buttar’s standard of practice was found to be so deficient the state medical board ruled he is no longer allowed to treat minors (autism) or cancer patients.
I’m guessing those were his major sources of income.
IMHO, he is now desperate for an alternative revenue streams, such as adults with alleged post-vaccine injuries.
Gynecomastia is a side effect of the Swine Flu Vaccine?
‘I would expect Buttars “therapy” to work if her condition is psychogenic. I am still waiting to see this amazing proof that she ever had dystonia. ‘
Are there any ‘psychogenic conditions’. Because this term is never explained.
BUT its a useful category for the medical controllers, who object to effective therapies they dont control.
Interesting however, that orthodox medicine was unable to treat Desiree…which means its even less capable than Dr Buttars methods
Desiree’s single blog entry is comedy gold. Its also full of alternative “medicine” purveyors leaving their details for her and others who happen to be reading. Which is an incredibly tacky way of advertising your business to my mind.
when did u become a commmunist , Rich? Whats wrong with a little entrepreneurial advertising?
I’ve got a pretty good idea which turkey Obama pardoned for Thanksgiving.
-when did u become a commmunist , Rich? Whats wrong with a little entrepreneurial advertising?-
It is not the “what” but the “how” that matters.
I’m afraid not being an american I have no weird obsession with communism as some kind of baby eating government of ultimate evil (which uncle Sam and his capitalism protect everyone from of course 😉 It is not an insult, just a failed form of government.
“‘I would expect Buttars “therapy” to work if her condition is psychogenic. I am still waiting to see this amazing proof that she ever had dystonia. ‘
Are there any ‘psychogenic conditions’. Because this term is never explained.
BUT its a useful category for the medical controllers, who object to effective therapies they dont control.
Interesting however, that orthodox medicine was unable to treat Desiree…which means its even less capable than Dr Buttars methods”
Psychosomatic Illness is very real, despite what you want to deny.
Somatoform Disorders
Also, your arguement is a TEXTBOOK example of Affirming the consequent
“Desiree Jennings has regained neurologic function. Therefor it must have been Dr. Buttar’s treatments (even though they had no scientific basis)”
There is no reason why, if they worked, that other doctors couldn’t do exactly the same treatment as Buttars. The question is why they don’t, when they could, and be making money out of it.
Psychogenic is merely a broader category than psychosomatic. I’m confused about your point. We are in no doubt that she has a disorder. We are merely questioning what the disorder was and whether it was then related to the vaccine.
“Desiree Jennings has regained neurologic function.” in a way that shouts psychosomatic. Treatment does not prove the diagnosis.
There are many, many cases of skeptics being completely wrong. I’m skeptical as well but you cannot say anything conclusively about this that means anything. You’re just giving reasons to doubt it. Go look up what happened in the history of EMPowerplus. That has definitely been permanently vindicated but it received the exact same treatment by skeptics. Similar idea, nutrients helping to heal the brain… Oh well, you’ll just find a reason to form an opinion you can’t prove instead of continuing the scientific process…
Never heard of EMPowerplus. Is this a stupid ad put on to an old blog posting?
This is pretty much the way the media has handled report the stroke cases after cervical manipulation. Despite there being no evidence whatsoever demonstrating manipulation can actually cause a stroke (and significant evidence which says it cannot) the media reports it over and over again based solely on the “victims” story. The best part is when the reporter interviews the chiropractic and the neurology experts who both agree the stroke was not likely caused by the manipulation, the reporter still slants the story in favor of the “victim.” With the cultural movement toward patient empowerment, one negative side effect will be a ton of sensational misreportig like this.