Anti-vaccine activism, not autism activism, part 2

Wow, how stupid would they feel if their own children came down with polio? Would their “cause” still seem heroic to them?
What about the statistics that say the risks of complications from vaccinations are miniscule compared to the risk of dying from a disease that is preventable by vaccination? They are foolishly placing their children and others in that higher risk group because of some theory that has been disproved over and over.
Maybe Jenny, Jim, and Tom Cruise should be consulted on all our healthcare issues. They seem to know best.

SAS, keep coming back and tell your father’s story. We need more people that have contact with the time when such childhood diseases were a crisis. My father will likely lose his ability to walk soon thanks to post-polio syndrome. He feels fortunate to have been so mildly affected compared to the many others who died or were severely crippled.

LOL- “un-scientific belief that vaccines cause autism”- the studies are crap, using only healthy children and laugh all you want at the “monkey study” but it’s a small study that shows big cause for concern. That type of study should have been done before giving hep b to newborns. Honestly, do you believe all the shots on the 2009 AAP schedule are necessary? Of course you don’t but just because you wouldn’t give every vaccine to your child/loved one doesn’t mean you don’t go out of your way to give the impression that it’s all great and perfectly harmless. You make me sick.

@jen

Please visit antiantivax.flurf.net and Science-Based Medicine. There’s some info at SBM on the monkey study, as well as, I believe, the hep B vaccine. Antiantivax has some info on the hep B vaccine, as well.

No one claims or suggests that vaccines are “perfectly harmless.” Please stop attributing impressions to us that we do not make.

If you take issue with the idea that a belief that vaccines cause autism is unscientific, then argue that point with evidence to back yourself up. Show us that it is not unscientific to hold such a belief.

Orac,anti-vaccers have only a “superficially plausible argument” that hep b is an unnecessary vaccine to day old infants? Are you kidding me? It’s more than superficially plausible that it’s a waste of public spending and potentially dangerous. Especially when they test for hep b in pregnant moms anyways. Your review of the Hewitson study shows the same bias inherant in all the pro-vacc studies (funded by vacc manufacturers). I would have to agree with you that only 3 primates in the control group is small (even for a small study) but the results still impress me as concerning.

yeah, my comments stand. Fer real. Now, you should get on out there and git yerself some o that Gardasil for you or yer boys and girls. Git yerself some Rotacrap. It’s all necercerry ya know?!

“Necessary” is another straw man. “Benefits greatly outweigh the costs and risks” is the actual position.

The antivaxers love that we can’t say that any vaccine is 100% safe. Well, Ive got new for them, NOTHING is 100% safe, and that’s why we can’t say vaccines are 100% safe.

Every time you travel by any means on land, sea, or air, there is a risk. Every bite of food you take and every drop you drink has the potential for a catastrophic outcome. Every breath you take in carries a genuine (if minuscule) risk. Existence has unavoidable risk.

The questions are, “Are the risks significantly outweighed by the benefits?” and “Is the risk of participation outweighed by the risk of non-participation?”. The answer to both these questions is easily and overwhelmingly in favor of vaccination.

Vaccines do carry remote risks of complications (like anything else in life); autism is not one of them. Non-vaccination carries serious and significant risks; death and permanent disability from disease are some of them.

“Benefits greatly outweigh the costs and risks.” If that’s the actual position, bring it on. So your basically saying that parents should weigh the benefits/risks before decding on individual vaccines regimines. Rotacrap is probably a huge waste of money per “benefit”, Gardasil has apparently caused more serious adverese effects than actual instances of cervical cancer(at huge public cost!) and autism (whatever specifically is causing it- hydrolyzed gelatin, thimerosal,aluminum, live viruses,(“holy goal posts changing, Batman!”) costs millions to care for in the individuals life time.

@jen

Do tell. Please provide some scientific evidence to back up your assertions that (1) “Gardasil has apparently caused more serious adverese effects than actual instances of cervical cancer(at huge public cost!)” and that (2) vaccines cause autism. Evidence-free claims of conspiracies do not count.

Orac, you’re glossing over a huge point. Your pro-vacc side would have loved to just ignore the fact that there IS BIAS inherant in all the vaccine studies unlike say, Cochrane Collaborative Reviews. Your side would like for that key point never to have been made an issue of but it has. Yeah, so now the other side is doing the same thing. Big freaking deal. At least they did disclose in the Hewitson study. What about Paul Offit sitting on the vacc committee? Pharma funds medical schools for God’s sake.

Oh, Jen, go away. You come, drop crap science, ignore studies because they don’t meet your needs, and run away. I’m tired of you, your lies, your crap science, and your nonsense. I’d point them out, but logical people here can readily identify them (the lie about Dr Offit for one) and I’m getting ready to go home.

Yes, life dealt you a rough hand. Deal with it. Ask SAS’s mother about her husband’s life without vaccines.

And yes, I’ve walked the walk. My girls both elected to have Gardisil. No complications for either of them. They are fully vaccinated, although to give full disclosure, they didn’t get Hep B until late elementary school, since when my girls were born they weren’t giving Hep B to newborns unless the mother tested positive, and it wasn’t required to attend school. As soon as it was required for school, they got it.

Last comment: go to any hospital pediatric ward and ask some of the older nurses if the Rotavirus vaccine is crap. Ask them about the times they had to stick a baby numerous times to start an IV in a dehydrated baby with diarrhea. Ask them about crying as they stuck a screaming child for the nth time, praying that THIS time the IV will go in and the baby gets fluids before the doctor has to do a cutdown for a deeper vein. Ask them about the babies who came in limp and non-resisting because they are so dehydrated, even though their mothers were breastfeeding, bottlefeeding, anything to get fluid into the baby. Ask them about the babies who died. Watch the tears. THEN come back and tell me the vaccine is crap.

Yeah, so now the other side is doing the same thing. Big freaking deal. At least they did disclose in the Hewitson study. What about Paul Offit sitting on the vacc committee? Pharma funds medical schools for God’s sake.

Ah, I get it now. To you, it’s not about whether bias affects research or a study. It’s about whether there is the kind of bias that you like affects research or a study. If you like the bias, it’s OK. If you don’t, it’s not. It’s as simple as that. Thank you for pointing out that you don’t really care about bias in research, only bias you don’t like. Now I know how you think. You don’t really care what the science shows; you’ve already made up your mind and no amount of evidence will change your mind.

As for the Hewitson study, actually, Hewitson only disclosed this conflict of interest because I and other bloggers caught her reporting preliminary results from the same study at IMFAR last year without reporting her obvious conflicts of interest:

https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2008/05/some_monkey_business_in_autism_research.php

http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=827

I once wrote about a scandal over an author of a JAMA paper who didn’t disclose his conflict of interest:

https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2009/03/catherine_deangelis_and_jama.php

I see Hewitson’s attempt to report her results in 2008 as being no different. She hid information about a large conflict of interest. But, hey, to you she had the “right” conflict of interest, so to you it’s all good.

Jen,

They DIDN’T disclose the C of I; that’s the issue.

To paraphrase something that has been said on this blog: a disclosed conflict of interest is cause to scrutinize the data further; an undisclosed conflict of interest is a huge red flag as to the validity of the study.

MI Dawn: How did life deal me a rough hand? Are you assuming my children have autism. They don’t. I selectively vaccinated, especially with my son. Neither has ever had hep b and you’d have to shoot me first before my daughter would have that stupid Gardasil shot. I’m not ignoring any particular studies. I work with autistic children and it’s not all “rain man” out there. Theses kids have some serious problems to be helped with. Now, you go away if you’re so tired of me! Orac, I will try to find evidence of what I said about Gardasil causing more instances of seious adverse effects than cases of cervical cancer.

I can’t think of anything I wouldn’t vaccinate my children (and myself, where appropriate) against. What is it about autism that causes some parents to see it as a fate worse than death?

Orac, I am glad that you are policing your comrads. What I said was that pharma has been enjoying bias in their studies for years without impunity. Now if both sides are biased it could be said that there is a level playing field. Ideally, neither side would have bias (such as with the Cochrane Collaborative Review).

What I said was that pharma has been enjoying bias in their studies for years without impunity.

I presume you meant to say WITH impunity. Which is regrettable, since what you actually said is accurate. Doctors and scientists have ALWAYS been aware and wary of such bias.

Wow, such wit! What a great command of the English language! Such a grand display of critical reasoning! The evidence produced has insurmountable quality! Obviously this is the level of debate that is allowed on the Age of Autism blog.

@Jen

Scott-just visited your antiantivacc site and the section on vaccines in general talked about the “fallacy” that vaccines are big money makers for pharma

————–

In Todd’s upside-down world fallacy means true

@Sid Offit

Feel free to provide evidence that I am wrong. Also, substantiate your claim that in my “world”, fallacy means true.

@Karl
Did I miss the part where you provided the financial details to back up the assertion that vaccines were big money makers for pharmaceutical manufacturers?
————————-

http://www.prlog.org/10232681-the-worldwide-market-for-vaccines-to-reach-us507-billion-in-2013-forecasts-new-report.html
The Worldwide Market for Vaccines to reach US$50.7 billion in 2013, forecasts New Report
Prevnar (Wyeth): 2008 sales of US$2.7 billion (€1.9 billion);
Gardasil (Merck): 2008 sales of US$1.4 billion (€959 million), sales estimated at US$2.3 billion (€1.6 billion) when counting Gardasil sales by Merck, Sanofi Pasteur MSD, and CSL;
ProQuad/M-M-R II/Varivax (Merck): 2008 sales of US$1.3 billion (€867 million);
Infanrix/Pediarix (GlaxoSmithKline): 2008 sales of US$1.3 billion (€859 million);

“It’s telling that anytime we need to demonstrate the horrors of these infections we have to go employ the Back to Africa gambit”

It’s telling that every time vaccines come up, you anti-vaxers show your true colors by wishing death and disease upon Africans 🙁

@sid, let me shift the goalposts a little here to more clearly express what I am looking for:

Please provide financials to show that vaccines are big profit makers for pharmaceutical companies, especially numbers that show that they are more profitable for pharmaceutical companies than other lines of business they can or do engage in. Showing revenue and sales numbers is not any such support. I worked for a materials manufacturer a long time ago, and we used to joke about companies that lost money on every sale, but made up for it in volume. Many companies have gone bankrupt while pointing to their massive gross revenue numbers and quite a few were even able to point out that they were EBIDTA positive when the money ran out. (We’re really in good condition if you just ignore all these negative factors on the balance sheet!)

Then after you provide those numbers, we can shift the goalpost to talk about the implied assertion that something done for profit must necessarily be evil and only in the interest of the profit maker at the expense of their victims.

@Sid Offit: Yes, we have to employ the Back to Africa gambit for diseases like HIB, polio, measles, etc because a good portion of the USA is vaccinated and therefore we have fewer lethal outbreaks of disease.
Not too long ago, when I was in nursing school and early in my nursing career, epiglottitis was a feared problem. As I am sure Orac remembers from medical school, in a peds rotation it was strictly stressed that you NEVER do an oral check of a child who is sitting leaning forward, drooling because it hurts too much to swallow until the surgeon is next to the pediatrician and you have a tracheostomy kit at bedside ready to open, since epiglottitis could be deadly. You see, in epiglottitis, caused by HIB, opening the child’s mouth wide might lead to the epiglottis snapping down on the trachea so the child can’t breathe and will die. Nice, isn’t it? Sure. Let’s go back to those days, not give vaccines. It wasn’t all that long ago. So some kids die. OK, it’s more kids than die from vaccines, but it’s OK, right? Right? As long as it’s not your kid.

@Jen: I never assumed your child has autism. However, you have complained and moaned about vaccines and their dangers, so I assumed that you had a child with some kind of health problem that you wish to blame on vaccines. BTW, what WILL you do if your daughter decides at adulthood to get vaccinated with Gardisil?

Needed to take a break from working on a manuscript earlier today, and got a laugh out of that post at AoA, and in particular Kathy Blanco’s craziness. I have to give you kudos for allowing almost as crazy posts from people like Jen. Over at AoA the rules are quite different, as you know…

You do realize that sales/revenue and profit are not the same thing, right?
——————
Really? I didn’t realize that. Thanks for the heads up. Anyway Merck doesn’t break down earning from specific products or segments, so we’ll have to find another way to determine profitability.

http://m.industry.bnet.com/pharma/1000308/at-merck-desperation-sets-in-over-gardasil/
Pharma Analysis
Industry news and insights by Jim Edwards
At Merck, Desperation Sets in Over Gardasil
By Jim Edwards | Oct 19, 2008
Signs of decline are setting in at Merck’s HIGHLY PROFITABLE vaccine for some strains of HPV and cervical cancer.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN3042872920080630
NEW YORK, June 30 (Reuters) – A new form of Wyeth’s LUCRATIVE(producing a sizeable profit; “a remunerative business” ) Prevnar vaccine being developed for adults could be a breakthrough product by helping prevent pneumonia and dangerous bloodstream infections among the elderly, according to top Wyeth vaccine executives.

yes, Scott, I meant with impunity-I had to leave for awhile. Chris is here! Paid blogging and all; welcome! T.Bruce- Yeah, duh it,ll take awhile to see if the cancer rates will go down but right now it’s still kind of alarming that there are so many serious adverse events. I know your not big on the VAERS system meaning much but since vaccine reactions tend to be under-reported you have to keep that in mind. BTW, Chris, I think you mentioned before that your son suffers from some kind of genetic problem and that vaccines had nothing to do with his seizures. Now your story is changing! Good try, though. Kaethe-you ask what is it about autism that makes parents think its a fate worse than death? WOW. You don’t know someone with an autistic child? I work in the schools and there are many. It’s not like “Rain Man” or that goofy guy in The Hangover. It’s kids who don’t and cannot speak. Kids who don’t even understand (minimal receptive language-they don’t even understand simple commands like, “come here”), kids who run away (bolt) at any given moment, kids who have extreme aggression and cannot be safely controlled at times, kids who eat sand and pebble, leaves and need constant supervision, kids who choke on their food and need to be watched all the time. It really is tough for the parents and care givers.

Kaethe, if you think about it I’m sure you will realise that there are indeed some vaccines that are not worth getting. The childhood schedule is actually a limited selection of what’s available. I’m sure you don’t want to seem as mindlessly pro- as the opponents are anti-, but you did write it a bit like that.

Every time I travel outside the first world, I visit the travel clinic to check up on the currently recommended shots for my destination. Yellow fever, cholera, typhus, rabies, HepA, HepB, meningococcal … I don’t want to take the unnecessary ones, it costs money and it hurts. The typhus vacc makes my arm sore for days. Rabies is an especially nasty shot, and only worth it if you’re handling animals. And I never get the smallpox vacc any more, for some reason…

Thank you Karl and Joseph! As a finance-type person, it really gets my goat when these anti-vax people quote sales figures and not profits. Karl, you make an especially good point when you say “especially numbers that show that they are more profitable for pharmaceutical companies than other lines of business they can or do engage in”. I did try to do this once and for the one company I was able to do this with (Aventis), the margin on vaccines was way less than non-vaccine pharmaceuticals (8% vs. 20%). So, in the world of for-profit companies, this is “charity” work because of the lost opportunity of spending resources on more profitable product lines.

Sharon, of course you love your kid the way he is but how are you so scientifically sure that he isn’t autistic due to vaccines? They give hep b at birth? Didn’t he get it? If not, why not? “I’d like him to stay that way” Who are you kidding! Like any normal mother you would want him to be self sufficient and able to function in society and be the best that he can be. You couldn’t wish anything less for him and you know it.

DB, thanks for the compliment and yes, I could be. My nana had Guillaume-Barre from the flu shot in the 70’s and Canada had the stupidity to go for the adjuvanted H1N1, so I chose not to do it. Proud of it.

MI Dawn, I hope that he is. I hope the very best for Sharon’s son. I know they develop skills because I work with them. I also know that it takes alot of hard work, time and money. I also know that for many people, bio-medical treatments help.

It’s like watching Chicken Little justify himself. If the evil oak farmers didn’t grow their trees so tall, he wouldn’t have to shout about the sky falling and cause mass hysteria!

The only thing that keeps it from being funny is that people are dead.

“very limited number of doctors,publicists, etc.” Yeah, well that would be because pharmaceutical companies don’t exactly want to fund research that will actually show there are problems with their product. Ya know what I mean? Fortunately there are more people interested in funding research to properly assess vaccine safety (or lack of). Don’t worry though, as there are more and more vaccines being pounded into the kids and coincidentally more autism, there are more activists all the time, Cochrane Collaborative Reviews,etc.

“I hope the very best for Sharon’s son. I know they develop skills because I work with them. I also know that it takes alot of hard work, time and money.”

Excellent dehumanization. Just by the by, does your “hard work” with “them” itself require “alot” of money?

One of the disturbing threads that runs through the vaccine-autism crowd’s writings is the absolute disdain for people with autism. They are viewed as freaks whose existence is a burden worse than death. Sometimes this sentiment is explicit, but it is nearly always implicit, as when Jenny McCarthy states that if it takes more dead kids to get what she wants, so be it.

Then there’s Jerry Kartzinel who says:

Autism, as I see it, steals the soul from a child; then, if allowed, relentlessly sucks life’s marrow out of the family members, one by one.

Nice.

how much do you get paid to shill the large pharma bs?

how much do you get paid to shill the large pharma bs?

Nothing.

Are you offering?

jaun valdez:

how much do you get paid to shill the large pharma bs?

I don’t know what he gets, but can I get some of your Colombian Coffee? I’m running low. How much did you get for shilling for them? How much did AOA,gen rescue, etc. pay to lure you away from Colombian coffee so you could shill for them?

For Jen;
I know I am coming late to the discussion but as a mother with a wonderful (autistic) son I feel I have to interject.

First of all I would have given anything to have a rotovirus vaccine when I was sitting with my dehydrated son in the hospital when he lost 20% of his weight from vomiting and diarrhea. That was four years ago and yet is still very vivid in my mind. Unfortunately my daughter was too old for the vaccine when it came out, so once again I was in the hospital. This time was different, however, as she had a severe electrolyte imbalance and the doctor told me he couldn’t rule out brain damage. She went from 29 pounds to barely 21 (27% of her weight)! She is doing well now two years later but no one knows what she may have lost to the disease.

My point is that you have never seen what these diseases can do to very young children. I’ll bet you have never had to hold you lethargic child for over an hour while a skilled phlebotomist tries desperately to find a vein, knowing if they don’t, your beautiful baby will almost certainly die!

So yes, rotovirus is not a laughable disease. IT KILLS!

In addition, shame on you for not considering the children you teach. They are all individuals and just because you think they are damaged does not detract from their value. If you spent time seeing them as people instead of problems perhaps you would not think that autism is a fate worse than death (I say that because wonderful Jim and Jen don’t mind losing children to their insane crusade).

I wouldn’t wish rotavirus on my worst enemy. I got it a few years ago as an adult ( or something very much in that family) and I can’t imagine what it does to a small child. I lost around 20 pounds in a week.

I’ve also seen what an outbreak of HiB does and how drastically that rate fell after the introduction of the vaccine.

Given the frequency of which most of these vaccinated for illnesses cause myriad forms of encephalitis/brain damage, the idea that avoiding it for even the sake of a sore injection site is ridiculous in the least, and the utterly unsupported autism connection, I can’t fathom why people wouldn’t protect the very thing they claim to cherish.

It’s just telling in this age that we don’t see these illnesses and people forget how brutal they really can be.

But the AoAers can demand study after study and nothing’s going to satisfy their forgone conclusions, despite all evidence to the contrary. In my world, we call that insanity.

@Jen, Re: “Rotacrap”:

Age of Autism say this about rotavirus: “Rotavirus is just some diarrhea for a day or two. It’s just not a big deal”

Facts:
By age 5, nearly every child will have an episode of rotavirus gastroenteritis, 1 in 5 will visit a clinic, 1 in 65 will be hospitalized, and approximately 1 in 293 will die. An estimated 1,205 children die from rotavirus disease each day, and 82% of these deaths occur in children in the poorest countries.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol9no5/02-0562.htm

Overall there are an estimated 1.4 billion episodes of rotavirus diarrhoea every year in infants. That’s an awful lot of diapers. By the time you have finished reading this post, one child somewhere in the world will have died from rotavirus infection. In poor income families, around one in 200 children will die from it before their 5th birthday. Even in upper-middle income countries, one in 1152 infants will die.

Trials of RotaTeq have been extremely successful. In one study of 70,000 infants it reduced hospitalisations by 94.5% compared to placebo vaccine, and its efficacy against severe gastroenteritis was rated as 98%. http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/354/1/23

So impressive have trials of rotavirus vaccines been in a number of countries that in June 2009, the World Health Organisation recommended that all national immunisation programmes included a vaccine.

Jen, once again, you have shown that for you and your AoA cronies, it has always been about the vaccines and it always will be.

@jen

I am also in Canada. I am well-educated, have a good job, own a house etc. I like a lot of women got tested for Hep B in my first trimester. Here’s the thing, my risk for catching Hep B increased during my second and third trimesters. My husband cheated on me. Luckily, I had gotten the Hep B vaccine prior and he didn’t get any infections. My daughter like most Canadians youngsters hasn’t been vaccinated for it yet, however had it been available after birth, I would have given it to her. She’ll get it in grade 7.

As for HPV, it’s a bitch, you can use condoms and still get it. I will strongly encourage my daughter to get that vaccine when she has an opportunity to.

Basically putting resources towards making vaccines a bogeyman takes away valuable time, research and money to try and help people with autism. I hate the fact my brother, who has severe aspergers, but has a high IQ, has a very hard time finding work, even though he has a good work ethic when he has a job.

It’s kind of amusing that Sid thinks some reporter’s choice of words has any bearing on the actual facts. He is apparently unaware that to make a story interesting or more compelling, certain words are chosen over others because of their emotional value, rather than whether they accurately portray a situation. While it is possible that the “lucrative” and “highly profitable” are accurate, I think it more likely that the reporter just picked words based on total sales without accounting for research and development and production costs, much like Sid.

@jen

Kaethe-you ask what is it about autism that makes parents think its a fate worse than death? WOW. You don’t know someone with an autistic child? I work in the schools and there are many. It’s not like “Rain Man” or that goofy guy in The Hangover. It’s kids who don’t and cannot speak. Kids who don’t even understand (minimal receptive language-they don’t even understand simple commands like, “come here”), kids who run away (bolt) at any given moment, kids who have extreme aggression and cannot be safely controlled at times, kids who eat sand and pebble, leaves and need constant supervision, kids who choke on their food and need to be watched all the time. It really is tough for the parents and care givers.

So, because life is hard and it takes a lot of effort to raise a child who has severe autism, death would have been better. Why, how uplifting and loving you are.

I’ve seen these kinds of kids. My ex worked with them and I spent time with them. Yeah, it’s tough. It’s tiring. It’s tempting to just view them as “broken”, especially when they fling or smear poop, when they bang their heads against the walls, when they bolt. Some few of her coworkers took that view of the kids. They were there to do a job, wrangling these “things” that were more animalistic than human. They resented the kids when they got smeared with poop, when they had to work overnight to make sure none of the kids bolted or aggressed toward another child, when the boys masturbated in public.

Then there are the times when they make little improvements, when they learn something new, when they laugh, have fun, play. They have personalities. They are people! They hold promise. I saw kids go from being 1 on 1 staffing to nearly independent. Older kids worked in the mail room or held other jobs around the center.

Autism, even in the most severe cases, is not a death sentence. While I can understand the frustration that can lead to thinking death is better than autism, it is still cold and heartless. Jen, when you justify that viewpoint, you, too, are despicable, cold and heartless. When you use that viewpoint to engender fear about vaccines, when it has absolutely nothing to do with vaccines safety or efficacy, you make yourself into a monster.

It is my sincerest hope that you figure out how to use that grey matter between your ears, that you thaw your heart and learn compassion and understanding. I hope that if you can’t learn to understand the truth about vaccines, that you at least learn that proselytizing and sowing fear, doubt and confusion only destroys, and that with that knowledge, you see that it’s best to keep your unscientific views to yourself.

In an unusual feat of restraint, I actually didn’t mention another of AoA’s awards, specifically how they’ve lionized Trudy Steuernagel, whose autistic son killed her. You see, autism is dangerous and violent to them.

Because, of course, no neurotypical person has ever killed his/her parents or otherwise acted violently. And all autistic people are violent.

I didn’t do H1N1. Our family lived through it and my husband and I both had pneumonia but got through

Congratulations on surviving. Perhaps you are the one that gave H1N1 influenza to a patient of mine who was willing but unable to get the vaccine. She’s dead now, thanks to someone like you spreading the virus with reckless disregard to the safety of others.

@PalMD “I was very proud when I found out that my little kid befriended an autistic kid in her class and was asked if she would attend speech therapy with him because she “gets him”. She genuinely likes him and does not see him as a freak. But if you teach your kids early on that kids who are different are a bad thing, you help perpetuate all kinds of evil.”

Thank you for that, we need more parents like you. I wish my son had a friend like your daughter. He just told me that he is lonely. He wants friends. We work hard on Social Thinking, and I hope one day he can make friends who don’t judge him and pity him, but get him and enjoy him for the unique and smart kid he is.

@Kristen You said what I wanted to say to jen. Don’t need someone with her views working with my son.

@jen

I hope that my kids never have a teacher/worker like you. The good teachers are the ones who teach all 3 of my autistic children that they are valued, loved, NOT damaged, and who give them the encouragement and assistance they need. And until you have lived 24/7/365 for years and years with a child with severe challenges, you have absolutely no right to imply that living with an autistic child is in any way a ‘fate worse than death’. You just don’t have a clue, and the harmful nonsense that you and others like you spout takes time, money, and energy directly away from services and movements that could actually help my kids and millions like them to live better lives. It’s pretty easy to see who the ‘damaged’ people really are in the autism world, and it’s usually not the autistics.

BA, you suggested I tell more of my father’s story. Dad had polio as a young child (obviously pre-vaccine)and wore a brace his entire life on one leg. He, like all the others who “beat” the disease, was stunned to realize that effects beyond that residual that he’d dealt with all his life. I describe post-polio as slowly getting polio in reverse. Dad lost use of both legs and moved to crutches and a wheelchair — but he could still take care of himself. However, his condition progressed step style. There would be an episode of pain and he would lose further use of a limb. After his arm became useless (he was in physical therapy for tendonitis for awhile because the local doctor was not listening when he explained post polio) my mother learned to move him to and from bed and dress him and all of that. Home health care workers, at least in their small hometown, were unreliable and untrained. Eventually, he moved to a nursing home. Mom went in and bullied him into eating twice a day, taking the kind of food he would eat. But his eyes were impacted (everyone pictured Dad with a book in hand all the time but he could no longer read), then his voice (former radio announcer) and then swallowing. It was long, slow and painful to watch. For the most part, he did not feel pain, once a particular portion of his body had gone lifeless. Had he not died this month, we were anticipating that he would be on a respirator before too long.

The specialist he saw at times told him two things: he was very lucky he had not taken on a physically strenuous career because the symptoms would have shown up much sooner and that there was next to no research being done on post polio and any possible treatments because polio was essentially eradicated and therefore the population would die out. I can only hope that polio does not make a comeback because watching the disease progress was horrible.

As a result of watching Dad deal with the effects all his life and then go through the post polio, I and my entire family are staunch backers of anything that could prevent anyone else going through all that.

I’d rather have autism (and do) than be dead or attached to a ventilator, thanks. However “annoying” parents find it when we’re younger doesn’t mean they’re aren’t plenty of people with autism who don’t have capable, independent lives. That like saying “I’d rather my child catch polio and be stuck in a hospital all their lives rather than go blind!” While being blind would suck, it’s not the worst thing in the world.

Thank you for that, we need more parents like you. I wish my son had a friend like your daughter. He just told me that he is lonely. He wants friends. We work hard on Social Thinking, and I hope one day he can make friends who don’t judge him and pity him, but get him and enjoy him for the unique and smart kid he is.

When my wife and I were looking for daycare for our son, we actively sought out places that were serving kids with special needs. We really want him to be in an environment where he interacts with kids of all types. There was a promising place we found, that was supposed to be focused on integrating special needs kids in, but when we went to visit, we discovered that they actually don’t have all that many special needs kids around. No more, in fact, than the other daycare we looked at which was cleaner and we felt better staffed.

I grew up in a neighborhood with Downs kids, and spent a LOT of time hanging out with my cousin who has Downs Syndrome, as well, and think I am a better person because of it. So the benefits go both ways in these relationships.

Stoney Sid, do you know the difference between “prevent” and “reduce the risk”?

@MikeMa

Before Sid spouts off, need to clarify that the HPV vaccine beats the condom for the particular strains it immunizes against.

@ Chris: Thanks. I am aware of these excellent resources,having read a bit.I was thinking more of a listing or flow-chart of the *elites* and “big guns” of anti-vax that might reveal the influences,redundancies,cross-currents-if you catch my drift.I suspect it involves a very few influencing very many.

Todd,
You are correct in that Gardasil is only effective against, I think, 2 strains that make up, again from memory, 70% of all cases. You are also correct that we must shoulder the higher burden of proof but Sid is just so smug that I cannot resist trying to smack around a little.

@anon

You’re anti-doctor simply because you think they’re “intellectually mediocre” and “motivated…finance and social status”? Therefore, vaccines are bad? Seriously? Are you pulling a Poe?

Wow…first off, I’d venture to say that, while there are some who are motivated by finance/status, there are probably quite a large number motivated by a desire to actually help and heal people. Second, being anti-doctor/anti-authority is most definitely not a reason to be against vaccines. Well, I guess it is a reason, but not one derived by logic, and certainly not an intelligent reason. Your opinion of doctors and authority figures has no bearing on whether or not vaccines are safe and effective.

Getting back to your first reason, you’re neglecting the non-zero risk posed to the individual by not vaccinating. You need to take into account what the risks of injury are from the disease, what the risks are from the vaccine, and the benefits to be gained from either taking or not taking the vaccine. Those all need to be tallied up. Again, rejecting vaccines simply because you don’t like utilitarian philosophy has no bearing on the safety and efficacy of vaccines. It does, however, have bearing on the risks/benefits to both the individual and society. By rejecting vaccines, you are putting the individual at greater potential risk for harm. Likewise, you increase the risk to society, as well.

Finally, your approach, acknowledging that vaccines are effective yet still rejecting them, is exceedingly selfish and self-destructive. By vaccinating, there is a (minor) risk to the individual, but significant benefit to both the individual and society. By not vaccinating, there is a (minor) benefit to the individual, but a significant risk to both the individual and society. So, by rejecting vaccines, you opt for greater risk to both the individual and to society. Ultimately, your philosophy, then, is aimed at, if not the destruction, the harm of society and the individual.

Why am I not shocked and utterly dismayed that I would show up on this blog? God, I wish you all could be in my shoes, and see a TRUE IDENTIFIABLE autism vaccine reaction like I did. Perhaps you would quickly change your pontifications on vaccines if it were your child. My child almost died from a DPT reaction. Febrile convulsions, screaming, acting blind and unconsollable-no longer the same. Would you love to be a part of that scene as you push one more vaccine into YOUR CHILD? Give me a break, innocuous diseases are now deadly, your all liars and unbelievable inhumane beings. You pontificate yourselves into stupidity. You wouldn’t know autism if it kicked you in the ass.

“Give me a break, innocuous diseases are now deadly, your all liars and unbelievable inhumane beings.”

Hi, I don’t believe we’ve met. I’m projecting and so are you.

“You are all trying unsuccessfully to minimize what [disease] is and make it seem like some harmless condition; a VERY,VERY condesceding viewpoint, I might add.”

Hey two new friends today. I don’t believe we’ve met either, but we’re both projecting. What a coincidence.

Evidently, I’m better off dead than ever having inflicted my often times obnoxious and anti-social behavior on my parents and community as a child. Aye, thanks for that then. Happy to know you have so little patience for so many children like me.

Erin, you’re welcome. I have hugged/consoled a screaming child showing “anti-social behaviour” as you say, until they laughed and were consoled. I’m not threatened by what you say in the least. I wish you all the best. You go girl! It’s people like Todd who make it out like it’s death VS autism. You actually don’t die from all these diseases,though that too is possible, just like it’s possible to die from a vaccine, that’s why it’s called risk VS benefit.

jen@125:

Please reference the comments where you were called racist and/or stupid.

Kevin Bjorke asked you a relevant question about the Cochrane reviews at comment 119. I think that it is a great question I hope that you address it soon.

jen:

Probability is more useful in risk v benefit calculations than possiblity

Jen, since you’ve offered no credible evidence that vaccines cause autism, you cannot credibly argue that the non-0 risk of dying or serious consequences from preventable disease is better than not having them. Yes, most kids don’t die of measles or chicken pox – but enough do that this is a non-0 number. The number of proven autism cases from vaccination is a 0 number.

Moreover, parents of autistic children have really good reasons for them not to get sick – time out for illness causes regression. They can’t always express themselves clearly, so they may suffer more than a normal kid. The drugs that are sometimes necessary for kids with autism who get sick can be tougher on their bodies than the average kids’. Someone who actually cares about autistic kids wouldn’t want them to get sick, or a non-0 number of them to die unnecessarily.

All of your argument rest on the rather nebulous presumption that even though we’ve never been able to find any evidence that vaccines cause autism, it must exist, because you believe it. But, of course, we keep pushing that presumption, keep doing more studies that prove the same thing, we don’t find out what actually does cause autism.

I’m sure you truly believe you are one of the good ones – I see the same attitude in the doctors who tell women that they should definitely have an abortion if their pregnancy includes Downs Syndrome indicators – because, after, all, having one of those kids will be terrible, it is no walk in the park, they are so awful you can’t imagine… I’m sure they mean well too – and maybe for some people that’s the right choice, but the underlying contempt of the disabled is palpable in your writing and theirs. Yes, autism is hard – and those of us who deal with it not because we like to praise our goodness, but because these are our children and we love them know that. But that doesn’t mean they are expendible, even a few of them, to support an unproven theory.

Sharon

JohnV@131

I thought that your comment regarding Sid’s statement was justified. The only other comment that I have been able to find was the one made by Rogue Epidemiologist@35. It was in reference to Hep B shots for newborns. It was a question not a statement and in my opinion I thought it was also justified. I have not been able to find an instance where jen was called a racist or where anyone said that jen is stupid. I hope that she will soon either support or withdraw her claim.

Jen:
I called you an idiot, because you made a claim that I thought only an idiot would make. How would I know that you are in fact a brilliant person who makes idiotic claims?

Todd and Sharon, think what you want. Sharon, your “I’m sure you do think of yourself as one of the good ones” is condescending and funny, as is your abortion comment. Sharon told me to “kiss her ass” first. This is all getting more than stupid. I gotta go and pick up a car that needed repairs in -20 weather and do some family stuff. Happy New Years! I will keep reading and researching and, believe it or not, would be the first to say I’m wrong if there ever is any conclusive evidence that vaccines don’t cause brain injury, along with disease which also can. I doubt that will happen, though.

Anyways, if Cochrane (06) study says hep b has no side effects, (rare and non-serious) then that is good. I trust them more than the AAP stamped pharma studies.

Er…are we talking about some Cochrane other than Cochrane Reviews? Because the Cochrane Reviews, as the name implies, are reviews of the literature, aka, the “pharma studies” (few of which are actually funded by pharmaceutical companies, most of which really, really dislike vaccines.)

When will you all wake up and realize that vaccines do not cause autism – cars cause autism. Think about it, before cars were invented there was no such thing as autism. As the average distance driven per person has risen, there has been a direct rise in autism cases leading to today’s epidemic. Plus, the Amish don’t drive cars and they never have autism. Do you know how much mercury goes into the manufacture of cars? Plus, how do you think children get to the doctor to get vaccinated? They drive in cars. It is time to start sending billions of dollars on car research to determine what about cars is causing autism. The evidence will be found, it’s just not there yet. I am not anti-car, just pro-safe-car.

ToddW: No, it’s the lead in the gasoline. Sure, they SAY they took the lead out in the 1970s but did they really take ALL of it out? What evidence is there that lead in gasoline doesn’t cause autism? Have controlled trials been done?

Nah, you are all wrong. Autism started to go up with the growth of the Internet, especially the available of broadband service. Cable modems cause autism!

Prove me wrong, jen!

(oh, and I also called you despicable)

Do you know I read that people are worried about vaccinating their pets now? That’s great. I can at least avoid being bitten by an unvaccinated child.

“Sure, they SAY they took the lead out in the 1970s but did they really take ALL of it out? What evidence is there that lead in gasoline doesn’t cause autism? Have controlled trials been done?”

Controlled trials wouldn’t mean anything, because Big Auto has paid off everyone. And even if lead in gasoline wasn’t the culprit, it could be the plastic in seats, or synthetic carpet, or the adhesive they use to stick the rear view mirror to the windshield. You can’t prove me wrong!

We need NCCAM to funnel $20 million or so to the Geiers to do a study comparing children who walk to the doctor to get vaccinated, as opposed to children whose parents drive them there. I’m sure JPANDS will publish the results. Then we can breathe easier, assuming Jesse Ventura has exposed the chemtrail threat by then.

Happy New Year to everyone, even those who Don’t Want Us To Know.

“The first reason I am anti-vaccine is that I am anti-utilitarian, and pro-kantian, which means I believe people are precious beyond price and that you cannot do arithmetic with people’s lives to determine ‘the greater good.'”

Setting aside the laughable gymnastics of the Metaphysics of Morals for a second, how is this even “Kantian” in the first place? Let’s have the analysis of the gedankenexperiment in which the action of vaccinating is a universal law of nature, posthaste.

jen@147: “All genetic”? reference please

SAS, thank you. I’ll be copying and pasting that one if you don’t mind.

IF vaccines did play a part in his autism (which know one can prove or disprove) then I honestly think the repeated MMR’s may not have been worth the theoretical risk of having a brain injury from the measles. We really can’t know that, though.

@jen: You realize this (guilt-generating) speculation can be applied to anything, right? Maybe an antibiotic was not worth it. Or maybe giving him certain foods was not worth it.

It’s all completely without merit given the lack of evidence, and in the particular case of the MMR vaccine, an abundance of negative evidence.

@Dianne

Respectfully I wish to disagree with you about your blanket statement that autistic children don’t like to be touched. My son is quite the opposite, he needs to be constantly physically reassured. We need to do intensive OT several times a day. The biggest problem we are working on is not hugging people he doesn’t know.

I do know that most children with pervasive developmental disorders are not comforted by touch, but some are.

That said, I can’t see how Jen holding a child could in any way be comforting. Children can sense when people are uninterested in or bothered by them. This sense seems especially pronounced in children with autism.

Has jen offered up the evidence that Gardisil has caused more damage than prevented?

in #126 and 135 I mentioned specifically that children can and do have side effects (brain damage, death) from illness-and of course things like febrile seizures. Any idiot knows that. Nice try, about a month ago (I don’t frequent this site often) you specifically commented that your son has seizures due to a genetic disease. I am certainly not going to go crazy trying to locate it. Now your story has changed. How convenient. a-non I actually did admit that Orac had a point about the control group being small (3). Kristen and Sharon if it makes you feel better to think of me as cold and hearless then by all means, go for it. I take absolutely no offence to it and the parents of kids I have worked with and colleagues would laugh to hear such a description of me. I don’t sell any kind of “treatments” to parents. I just work with kids. Joseph has a point about guilt- generating speculation. Hindsight is 20/20, as they say. Happy New Year.

incidence of new cases of cervical cancer for /09 from National Cancer Institute: 11,270.
incidence of VAERS reports (only by Oct. 08) so it’ll by higher by now: over 9,000. MedAlerts database through to Nov. 30 /08 showed 5, 021 emergency room visits. Those are some scary numbers, and unfortunately I think we’ll be hearing more about them from the Gardasil moms and girls.I’m glad I chose to research it and not get it for my daughterl. Bruce the brain has pointed out though, that it will take time of course to see how incidence of cervical cancer will play out.

@Jen

I don’t know you personally, true. I am simply commenting on the type of person you have portrayed yourself to be in this discussion.

I hope you are a better teacher than you seem to be. But because of some of the dehumanizing things you have said about children like MY SON, my assesment of you stands.

It doesn’t make me feel good when someone like you makes such inane comments, I hear it every day. But don’t pretend you have been the angel of autistic children and Sharon and I are so unreasonable. You don’t know how we feel about our children so stop projecting your views on us.

In addition; my husband has aspergers syndrome and my daughters show some “autistic-like” traits. In my opinion living proof that their is a very large genetic componant. Perhaps there is some environmental trigger involved but it is conclusive that vaccines aren’t a factor (please someone correct me if I am mistaken).

jen the despicable:

incidence of VAERS reports (only by Oct. 08) so it’ll by higher by now: over 9,000.

VAERS is a self selected survey. How many in the end were found to be actually caused by the vaccine? Does that data also include the auto accidents, congenital heart conditions, drug overdoses and undetected cancer tumors? Oh, yeah… if you heard of a school girl in England who died after her HPV vaccine (different brand), it turned out it was a large undiagnosed tumor.

Come on, VAERS is no good until after you have gone through the case reports. One parent from the UK (which is not in the USA, which is where VAERS is only valid) used it to report his daughter turned into Wonder Woman!

By the way, 11000 is more than 90000. Also, is fainting has horrible as cervical cancer? Really?

Even if all the VAERS reports did document an actual adverse event, how many are comparable to cancer? I’m betting a lot of them document a rash, fever, aches, perhaps fainting.

@jen

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/10/15/genital-warts-hpv-gardasil-vaccine226.html

(and yes I know the type that causes genital warts doesn’t cause cervical cancer, but this suggests that the vaccine is having a positive effect).

Clarification required… the seizure disorder had an unknown origin. It went away, and was only brought back again by a now vaccine preventable disease.

That was his last seizure, and the only one that a cause could be found. It was a year later that it was determined he was permanently disabled.

Of course, that does not matter. Because in real life lots of kids have seizures with no known reason. For kids that have seizures for a known reason, that reason is often a real disease. Those diseases include measles, pertussis, mumps, Hib, rotavirus, influenza, and any other disease that can cause a fever. Just because these diseases can commonly cause seizures, that does not mean the seizures are always harmless.

By the way, jen has perfect children.

She has no clue what it is to live with a child who has health issues from birth, nor how to live with a child with developmental delays. Sure she claims to deal with them at a school (as an aide perhaps?). Certainly not 24-7 like the rest of us, and definitely not for the time into adulthood when a IDEA no longer applies.

She is despicable, and an idiot.

Anonfornow:

(and yes I know the type that causes genital warts doesn’t cause cervical cancer, but this suggests that the vaccine is having a positive effect).

Actually, the HPV genotypes that cause cervical cancer also cause genital warts. Other subsets of HPV cause genital warts, but don’t carry the risk of cervical cancer. The report that genital wart transmission is going down in Australia is good evidence that the vaccine will be effective in lowering the risk of cervical cancer.
Incidentally, even low-grade dysplasia of the cervix (“precancerous” lesions) is no simple matter to deal with. More frequent Pap tests, colposcopy exams, cone biopsies – which carry a risk to subsequent pregnancies – and of course, the worry that the disease will recur, are all things that I would like to spare my daughters as much as possible.

Worse, contrary to Jenny and Jim’s assertions, we already do have vaccines that are safe, but no amount of science or evidence will convince anti-vaccine activists to use them on their children.

This sentence really struck me, Brother Orac. It created in my mind this image of heartless, childless doctors and industrial sinister geniuses plotting to inject things into their children. That’s powerful imagery that I don’t think I had really appreciated them creating…

Hm…

Anonfornow:
Your experience demonstrates that cancers can have more than one cause, such as lung cancers occurring in non-smokers. I hope all is well now.

@Jen

I believe the point Chris was making is that you don’t have a child with a developmental delay. Therefore your opinion of how parents with such children feel is an arrogant projection of your personal feelings.

No child is perfect, but you don’t know what it is like to have a delayed child. And no, teaching autistic and disabled children doesn’t count. Being his mother is a 24/7 job. You get brakes, I don’t. The challenges of raising a “normal” child notwithstanding.

AF: found it: from November (has Desiree Jennings VAERS report been found?)
Chris: “Considering my son’s seizures started as a newborn, before any vaccines, plus he had more he had an actual disease…”
That’s pretty different from: “he suffers from a now vaccine preventable disease.” She wrote that in Nov. and she says her son is now an adult. Did she just discover in the last month that lo and behold, it wasn’t a genetic condition it was a “vaccine preventable disease.” Common sense tells me no. She lied. Caught. Kristen, I can appreciate very much what you are saying. I have worked with enough families (outreach-behavioural counselling) besides in the school to understand your point.

it seemed that your story changed to one where, being pro-vaccine, it jived better. That’s it. Anyway, think what you want about me.

my last thoughts on this post are that many of you (pro vaccine) seem to use the black and white “death VS autsim” stance which is sick and exaggerated.
Also, you DO allow that vaccines are not 100% safe, no medical treatment is (I’m paraphrasing but I know that someone said exactly that). Side effects (which are many) are even listed on the vaccine inserts and yet you hold so dear to the position that vaccines cannot cause autism (based on some fairly unspectacular studies-not even a vacc VS unvacc study). It all seems flimsy. More studies do need to be done. AND,I know you’ll be shocked that I am saying this but vaccines are probably not the only cause of autism.

my last thoughts on this post are that many of you (pro vaccine) seem to use the black and white “death VS autsim” stance which is sick and exaggerated.

@jen: What gave you that idea? Vaccine-preventable diseases can kill you, and people like you aren’t helping, but there’s no choice of the form ‘autism vs. infectious disease.’ There’s no reason to believe one is related to the other.

How ever there are genuine ones in every profession

@nwo: Riddle me this. Clearly, these “genuine” doctors would’ve been contacted by Big Pharma about getting payments so they too cover up the vast vaccine conspiracy to give kids autism and control the world’s population. Where can I find the whistleblower accounts?

Kristen:

By the way children like Chris’ can have more than one condition. Your gotcha attitude is infuriating.

Exactly. It has also caused him to have a “Why me?” complex, that required intervention with a qualified psychologist. Doesn’t help having two younger siblings that have fewer health issues, and seem to breeze through school without effort.

jen, don’t let the door hit your bum on your way out.

@Joseph:the power that controls big pharma and orchestrates its horrors is being concentrated in ever fewer hands. in 1995, 25 companies controlled more that half the global drugs market, by 2000, it was just 15 and the mergers have continued since then. this big pharma merger mania is as with every aspect of society, centralising power over vaccines, drugs and the medical system in general. even now, only real doctors with balls to match are prepared to take them on. whenever i hear the term family doctor my heart sinks and i have visions of repeaters in suits parroting the party line so essential to keeping there job and maintaining the support of the authorities. it is so lucrative for doctors who play the game and pressure their patients to have their immune defences, and those of their children, consumed by the cocktail concoctions that issue from corporations like Merck, GlaxoSmithKline and Sanofi-Aventis.

Jen,

I only wish we had used adjuvanted H1N1 vaccine here in the U.S.

We likely would have had more vaccine available earlier, and fewer deaths, especially among children.

A sore arm would have been worth preventing the several hundred excess child deaths (over a “normal” flu year) we’ve already experienced.

long live the republic!!!

Jen @ 192: Okay, gloves off…now you’re just acting like an a**hat.

You mention that vaccines are not 100% safe, and that they come with inserts mentioning possible deleterious side effects. Hmmm, sounds to me like they’re being HONEST and letting people know there’s a chance of an adverse reaction, no matter how small.

In contrast, I have yet to see ANY evidence of a CAM practitioner / booster describing ANY POSSIBLE deleterious side effects of their ‘bio-medical’ (uh, is there ANY OTHER kind of medical, you howling idiot?) so-called ‘treatments’. This in spite of the damn-near FACT that chelation therapy for autism has killed at least one child, no VAERS self-selected nonsense necessary…they’re prosecuting the practitioner who did it.

Oh, and your spelling and grammar haven’t improved.

nwo rebel soldier:

Do you know the difference between “there”, “their” and they’re”?

Didn’t think so.

@jen

I really don’t think you have any insight into how you come across to us (parents). It might be instructive to copy off this blog and comments and consult with some colleagues on this. You are projecting way too much, and come across as condescending and very uncaring for our feelings. If you really care for our kids, please, try a little introspection.

P.S. We don’t want pity, either. Maybe a cookie now and then. That would be nice! :0)

so what if i cannot be bothered 2 spell corectly its the message that counts not how its written

you know its really bizarre you think your better than me because you know posh words and you have good grammar and you have a masters degree blah blah blah. i pity you u have been so brain washed by the system and indoctranted your values disgust me, you put people in catgories and judge them black, white, clever, dum, asian, gay, radical, race, rich, poor i will not suffer you know why? because i see past the lies and the fake exterior you helplessly defend because you think your life has meaning because you have a big bank account and a nice car. i am a human being i am part of the ocean of collective conciousness i am not indivual droplet like you. just a choice right now between fear and love the eyes of fear diconnect you the eyes of love see all of us as one.

i am simply expressing myself but you attack me?
the worlds a real mess is it any wonder why?

I am not attacking you. I’m just not sure I want to join your collective of conspiracy!

So having enough of an education to understand the basics of science, having a multi-syllabic vocabulary and nerdy enough to reference Star Trek is considered being in a cult?

What color is the sky on your world? Do you live in a big cube where you get instructions from the leader of your collective?

you know i like writing on gregs blogs being amongst the indroctinated academics with there top notch educations and there scientific knowledge of the world, posh grammer but no commonsense type view. they understand stuff sure they can work out complex equations they could work out the far end of a fart and where it came from. but they still dont understand why the worlds going down the pan they take authority as the truth when truth should be the authority

nwo rebel soldier @ 213

No, what is bizarre is that you feel so entitled that it’s up to US to interpret your ungrammatical, stream-of-consciousness ranting.

Unclear communication can and often does obscure a valid point, and ‘fine’ language/grammar/etc may be used to cloak falsehood. However, grammatical communication is symbolic of a dedication to an ideal, and can allow a person to describe nuanced, subtle ideas.

In the world of the written word, subtlety and solid logic win because they can be checked, and it’s not a question of talking faster or louder than your opponent, nor intimidating them.

As for your canard regarding categories, everybody does this every day, and not just in regard to people they meet. Or is there some qualitative different between liking one food and disliking another and having preferences in people? Now, I’ll say *racial/sexual/lifestyle prejudice* is bad, but why do you even bring that in? It’s unclear language that’s being addressed, and the unclear, self-pitying thinking and ‘entitled’ emoting that underlies it. Of course you’re a human being, and passionate in your advocacy of your point, but it’s like trying to fight math. two plus two will always equal four in typical math, and fighting it will just make your life difficult without providing any offsetting benefit (like memorizing the addition and multiplication tables, which are difficult but provide a useful tool once memorized.)

As for ‘brainwashing’, if being willing to work with others toward a common goal, put off instant gratification in the pursuit of a greater future good, willingness to examine and evaluate all evidence and accept a conclusion even when it conflicts with one’s prejudices (there’s that word again!) is brainwashing, then we need MORE of it, not less.

As for your contention that ‘i will not suffer you know why?’, I would make a bet that if you were born in the US, you probably have been provided with most of the vaccinations already, so your chances of getting sick (and causing harm to others by getting a vaccine-preventable disease) are extremely limited. The limit of the health harm you may do is limited to any vaccinations that were missed in childhood & vaccinations for the yearly ‘flu and H1N1 ‘flu.

And (sarcasm ON!) you *are* an ‘individual droplet like me’….you’re unique, just like everybody else, twins/triplets/etc. included. *Together* we metaphorically make up the ocean of which you speak, but unless you’re part of a hive mind (one mind, many bodies, kinda like ants), you’re just flat out deluded on this one.

Besides, this isn’t a private club, but it is a place where people have chosen to come together to discuss a subject. What you’re doing here is like coming in, vomiting / crapping on others’ tables/food/clothes, roaring nonsense thru a megaphone so others can’t converse, and then being offended because you’re not welcomed with open arms after proving you don’t care about anybody but yourself.

Is that clear enough?

@why is it when anyone replies 2 my messages they use scientific complex gargon crap talk normally. you talk of interpreting my writing yet look at the way you writed yours if your going to describe something dont use a million words i know your trying to sound clever but it doesnt wash with me.
“However, grammatical communication is symbolic of a dedication to an ideal” nonsense just because i used text language doesnt mean i am not dedicated or dum if anything from a scientific point view it takes less energy to use text language do u think i am going to mess around with a hundred posh words to describe something like u said 2+2=4.
whats that saying simplify clarify mind you will probably ignore what i have said because of the grammer.

Finally…A post that makes sense to me. I don’t believe Jenny’s son was ever on the aut spectrum. I think he was misdiagnosed. You don’t ‘cure’ autism. She’s a farce and it’s so funny that anyone takes her seriously. She’s doing so much damage. BTW…has she ever mentioned the Dr. that ‘cured’ her son? I’d like his name so I can take my son to see him for the ‘cure.’ It’s just wrong that she’s been given such a voice in the vaccine circles. But then again, there were always those that didn’t believe some vaccines are good and now they have a leader. sigh. What a world we live in.

@Anonymous Coward:(“but unless you’re part of a hive mind (one mind, many bodies, kinda like ants), you’re just flat out deluded on this one”).Those who manipulate the organized habits and opinions of the masses constitute an invisble goverment which is the true ruling power of our world.
(“being willing to work with others toward a common goal, put off instant gratification in the pursuit of a greater future good, willingness to examine and evaluate all evidence and accept a conclusion”)if only that where true our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power we have guided missles and misguided men, so go ahead continue pluging yourself into the hive mind and let yourself be brainwashed, continue making cancer shots for people to take as long as your family is ok and make lots of money like what you said (“in the pursuit of a greater future good”) 4 you maybe screw the peasants my life has meaning im a some 1!!!

Just watched the Larry King/McCarthy/Carey interview. Sad to see how nuts they are – the kind of people you’d fake diarrhea to avoid conversation with at a dinner party.

They did, however, bring up an interesting point (le gasp! le shock!) Why IS the number of vaccinations so much higher in the U.S. than in other countries with comparable GDP? I can’t imagine that the demographics of, say, Canada are that much different than those of the U.S. Wherefore, then, the difference in vaccination scheduling?

I swear to Jebus that I’m not anti-vax, or “safe vax” or whateverthecrap they’re calling it now. I don’t ask this question because I think vaccines cause autism. That being said, surely, knowing what we know about the influence of the pharmaceutical industry in both medical practice and politics, there is at least SOME truth to the accusation that there are vaccines being given that aren’t medically necessary, given that other countries who are privy to the same science that the U.S. is choose not to include them.

I’d really honestly like an explanation of why there is that large a difference in schedules.

At least you didn’t call her a “refrigerator mother” which was of course the scientific consensus cause for autism until recently. Why the hell should vaccines contain a mercury based preservative, much of the world has already banned this practice over health concerns, it is not needed for safe distribution of vaccines, what possible reason could there be for defending it. It reminds me of a century ago when obstetricians refused to wash their hands before delivering babies and condemned 100,000s of mothers to a painful death from childbed fever. No the medical community can never be wrong, even if it is something as obvious as washing their hands or not injecting children with mercury. But keep on insulting the mothers and parents that will help your position.

http://healthjournalclub.blogspot.com

Ten things you’re not supposed to know about the swine flu vaccine
(At least, not by anyone in authority…)

#1 – The vaccine production was “rushed” and the vaccine has never been tested on humans. Do you like to play guinea pig for Big Pharma? If so, line up for your swine flu vaccine this fall…

#2 – Swine flu vaccines contain dangerous adjuvants that cause an inflammatory response in the body. This is why they are suspected of causing autism and other neurological disorders.

#3 – The swine flu vaccine could actually increase your risk of death from swine flu by altering (or suppressing) your immune system response. There is zero evidence that even seasonal flu shots offer any meaningful protection for people who take the jabs. Vaccines are the snake oil of modern medicine.

#4 – Doctors still don’t know why the 1976 swine flu vaccines paralysed so many people. And that means they really have no clue whether the upcoming vaccine might cause the same devastating side effects. (And they’re not testing it, either…)

#5 – Even if the swine flu vaccine kills you, the drug companies aren’t responsible. The U.S. government has granted drug companies complete immunity against vaccine product liability. Thanks to that blanket immunity, drug companies have no incentive to make safe vaccines, because they only get paid based on quantity, not safety (zero liability).

#6 – No swine flu vaccine works as well as vitamin D to protect you from influenza. That’s an inconvenient scientific fact that the U.S. government, the FDA and Big Pharma hope the people never realize.

#7 – Even if the swine flu vaccine actually works, mathematically speaking if everyone else around you gets the vaccine, you don’t need one! (Because it can’t spread through the population you hang with.) So even if you believe in the vaccine, all you need to do is encourage your friends to go get vaccinated…

#8 – Drug companies are making billions of dollars from the production of swine flu vaccines. That money comes out of your pocket — even if you don’t get the jab — because it’s all paid by the taxpayers.

#9 – When people start dying in larger numbers from the swine flu, rest assured that many of them will be the very people who got the swine flu vaccine. Doctors will explain this away with their typical Big Pharma logic: “The number saved is far greater than the number lost.” Of course, the number “saved” is entirely fictional… imaginary… and exists only in their own warped heads.

#10 – The swine flu vaccine centres that will crop up all over the world in the coming months aren’t completely useless: They will provide an easy way to identify large groups of really stupid people. (Too bad there isn’t some sort of blue dye that we could tag ’em with for future reference…)

The lottery, they say, is a tax on people who can’t do math. Similarly, flu vaccines are a tax on people who don’t understand health.

Philip @ 233

Uh, dunno where you’re from, but thimerosol has been eliminated from just about every vaccine in the US. They’ve been out for a while (since sometime in the 1990’s, not from proof of danger, though…no reproducible study ever has proven thimerosol is a danger in vaccines)

As to washing hands (which I prefer to antibacterial gels, discussion for another day), that was proven in just the way that ‘vaccines cause autism’ HASN’T been proved.

As for insulting ‘mothers and parents’ (whoops! Sarcasm again…shouldn’t that be mothers and fathers, or parents?) I don’t feel a pressing need to be polite when somebody wanders in and starts spouting feelgood, content-free nonsense in an offensive, attacking style of prose.

Ian:

I’d really honestly like an explanation of why there is that large a difference in schedules.

Well, it is due to the fact that each country gets to make their own schedule. The ones who figure it out are individuals who look at the risks and circumstances that are unique to their location. They also look at the costs, and sometimes whether it was “invented here.”

In Japan you will see a requirement for Japanese Encephalitis. That is not required in the USA, because it is not found in the USA.

Now once upon a time Japan had an MMR for a couple of years, but their strain of mumps vaccine caused some issues (Urabe versus Jeryl Lynn mumps strain, for some reason they do insist on using only vaccines developed in Japan, while the USA is quite willing to use Japanese developed vaccines like the DTaP and varicella — remember if anyone complains about “Western” medicine, two vaccines commonly used in the USA were developed in the “East”). Mumps is now endemic in Japan, and some recent PubMed articles have seriously questioned their policy on mumps vaccine (one of them implies that deafness due to mumps is higher than previously assumed).

The UK Vaccine Schedule is very similar to the American schedule. Once upon a time they did require the BCG for tuberculosis, but not any more. About the only difference is no requirement for varicella (the arguments are mostly over cost), and Hepatitis B (which, I am sorry to say, is actually concentrated in groups that immigrate from certain countries, which happen to occur mostly in American coastal cities). The HPV vaccine in the UK is different from the USA.

Once upon a time a long long time ago I was an Army dependent. That meant living in places outside of the USA. Some of those places had different disease threats, which is why my shot record records that I have been vaccinated for yellow fever, typhus and typhoid. Also, while living overseas many of my friends were Canadians who had had the BCG… they had to skip the TB tine tests the school conducted because the vaccine they had would always show they were positive. They did, however, subject themselves to the school wide X-ray screening for TB. I did not do that since I had just returned to school after a six-week bout of pneumonia that required several X-rays, there was no need to get more radiation.

Oh, goody. I’m away from the blog for 15 or 16 hours, and the anti-vax trolls go nuts. I see that we have a new and particularly dim one who can’t even string together a coherent sentence, and, not surprisingly, he’s getting his tuchas handed to him by my science-based readers. My advice to him is to leave before he ends up looking any more foolish. Not that I expect he’ll take that advice, but at least I tried.

@Chris – thanks I’ll give that a try.

@nwo rebel soldier – where would I go to get one of these “cancer shots”? They don’t have aluminum in them, do they? I heard that aluminum causes brain damage in forum trolls…

nwo rebel soldier @ 235

Oh, damn, not another Top 10 list! I was just about to go to bed, too….

Anywhooooo…

1. ‘Vaccine production was rushed’. Yup, they usually have a year to make it, and H1N1 apparently grows a LOT slower in eggs than seasonal flu. They didn’t know this at the start, so they didn’t run it as a sprint project. So, now we know you’ve never made a faulty assumption, or you might have had a little more understanding for this. Oh, and it was tested, as of July 22, 2009 ( http://www3.niaid.nih.gov/news/QA/vteuH1N1qa.htm )

2. Close, but not quite there. You have to strike the word ‘dangerous’ out of the sentence, then it’s spot on. Remember, the poison is in the dose. Hell, water or oxygen will kill you if you get too much of them. As for causing autism: proof, please, from a reproducible study with a large sample size?

3. H1N1 flu vaccine could only suppress your immune response if homeopathy were true. Since the body reacts to the vaccine by attacking it, all but a tiny fraction (that is identifiable, and will need to count on herd immunity) of people will have stronger immune systems. Oh, and BTW, this conflicts directly with your last point (#2)

4. True. But while we’re on the topic, how long did the paralysis last? http://www.haverford.edu/biology/edwards/disease/viral_essays/warnervirus.htm states that of those who got GBS, (8.3 per million), 5% died & 10% had some lasting paralysis. The 1976 H1N1 had a 10% mortality rate, so half the people who could (I’d love to say would, but I’m not sure) have died were saved by rapid immunization. Actually, both the percentage and the raw number would have been higher, given how infectious 1976 H1N1 was supposed to be (44 million were vaccinated)

5. Wrong. The U.S. government has set up a special court ( http://www.hrsa.gov/Vaccinecompensation/ ) specifically to try vaccine cases, with rules of evidence for petitioners (those who were hurt & believe the vaccine was the cause) that are far easier than ordinary courts of law. AND the gov’t automatically covers petitioners’ legal fees, too. So, nope!

6. ‘No swine flu vaccine works as well as vitamin D to protect you from influenza.’ Sorry, no proof, no backup, can’t accept this one. I could just as easily say I was taking the entire ‘Swedish Olympic Bikini Team’ to bed tonight, with as much proof. (Dreams, now….but that’s a different story)

7. ‘Even if the swine flu vaccine actually works, mathematically speaking if everyone else around you gets the vaccine, you don’t need one!’. So, by this standard, you can steal food from babies, beat up anybody weaker than you, etc. just because it’s good for you and to Hell with everybody else. Mmmm, your mother must be so proud that you learned ethics and empathy so well! (more sarcasm….)

8. So, we can tax you on the amount of money you GROSS, rather than the amount left over after you’ve paid your rent / food / etc bills…every penny? No deductions? The relevant question here is “How much profit are the drug companies making PER DOSE? And how does that compare the profit on drugs used to treat the actual H1N1 flu? Or better still, how does that compare to the profit on Viagra or Rogaine, which are lifestyle drugs if there ever were any?

9. ‘When people start dying in larger numbers from the swine flu, rest assured that many of them will be the very people who got the swine flu vaccine.’ Okay….evidence? Every fact & number out there says that vaccines prevent the disease or reduce the severity. The only way you could be right is if the H1N1 flu that gets loose is radically different from the vaccine version. In that case, it would be as if nobody was vaccinated. But vaccination won’t make it worse under any high-probability scenario you can dream up (‘high’ probability…say, 51% or more likely to happen)

10. ‘The swine flu vaccine centres that will crop up all over the world in the coming months aren’t completely useless: They will provide an easy way to identify large groups of really stupid people.’

Whoa! I’m shocked….we agree entirely. Actually, no. You’d want to tag those getting the vaccine, and I’d want to tag those who didn’t. But, hey, we’re agreeing there are two groups, so I guess that’s something.

Time for some beauty sleep (lost cause…I’m as ugly as I am snarky….but Hell, it works as well as CAM!)

TTFN

@interlectual sheep:Ian

Why don’t you and master Orac go together when you get your cancer shots, couples always provide moral support for each other.

The Borg called nwo rebel soldier:

Sorry aluminum causes cancer not brain damage, i think the one your looking for is called Formaldehyde

Wait, first you say aluminum causes brain damage, but now it causes cancer!? Why can’t you make up your collective minds!?

Formaldehyde is created in most human cells, and it is part of the cells of vegies and fruits. Are you going to tell us to stop eating bananas, pears, carrots, beets and other fruits and vegies? Are you my evil carnivorous cousin who refused to eat anything that experienced photosynthesis? Really, tell us why you want us to only eat things without formaldehyde.

“nwo rebel soldier” does not equal “nwo rebel troll”

Please do not confuse the sheep. They get very annoyed.

@ Coward @238

You are demonstrably impacted.

Thimerosal has not been removed from the majority of influenza vaccines neither from virtually all of the swine flu vaccines. As of 2008 influenza vaccine has now been recommended yearly for children starting at six months.

Actually Semmelweis who proved antiseptic hand washing would nearly eliminate child bed fever was rejected by the medical establishment and died before his ideas took hold, though the evidence was all the time before peoples eyes.

Wow, this is better than a movie. Where’s my popcorn? Usually I have to PAY to see such comedy.

The sad thing, of course, is that nwo rebel moron might actually be serious.

@225 nwo
@226 Jen

It is not a fancy degree which makes one a scientist, or “posh” language. It is a curiosity about the world and life and a NEED to see evidence for any conclusion.

Naturally one gains understanding and nuanced speech in their quest for the truth of how things work (thank you A.C.).

Neither of you are interested in how things really are, you have convinced yourselves you are right and any evidence to the contrary is just background noise.

Humility is necessary when learning about the way things work, because you need to be prepared to change your understanding when given evidence to the contrary (and if you are like me, feel like an “ant among giants” on Orac’s threads).

nwo rebel (whatever): “along with disinfectants and stabilizers that include streptomycin, sodium chloride,”

Oh no! Not the evil sodium chloride! That horrible poisonous toxin! Why, it’s almost as bad as dihydrogen monoxide!

Oh yeah, streptomycin is an antibiotic (as in anti-bacterial). I’ll continue to snicker until you figure out sodium chloride and dihydrogen monoxide …

People like Ian are right to question why the U.S. schedule is higher than other countries (any other country, in fact). Having a male child now means that you face a 1 in 58 chance of him having autism yet you want them to fear measles or chicken pox more. And yes, the flu shots (widely recommended to pregnant women and infants) still contain thim- as mentioned by Philip.

Look at nikola tesla that man was a hero in my eyes free unlimted energy 4 every 1 but because the corrupt system could not tax that energy his funding was cut.

Thats really nice but you are nuts. Tesla never had the ability to provide unlimited energy four everyone. The sad fact is that the man eventually just cracked for some reason.

“The process of making a vaccine includes using monkeys, chick embryos and surgically aborted foetuses, along with disinfectants and stabilizers that include streptomycin, sodium chloride, sodium hydroxide, aluminium, hydrochloride, sorbitol, hydrolyzed gelatin, formaldehyde and a mercury derivative called thimerosal.”

So what you’re saying is

– 2 eggs
– pinch of salt
– baking soda
– sugar
– gelatin

– Combine in large mixing bowl. Add monkey as needed. Garnish with thimerosal.
– Serves millions.

Sounds delicious!

AF and Mr. B: yes the 1 in 58 chance of having a boy with autism is a U.S. based calculation (recent). YOu are right that it would be important to compare this number to other countries (and all countries have a less bloated schedule than the U.S.). I would wager that the number of boys affected would be less but I don’t know if there is a comparable survey recently done in other countries as to autism prevalence. Of course, if certain vaccines, such as MMR (for example) were in the end more likely to cause autism, then it wouldn’t be a matter of the total number of shots in the schedule (most countries now recommend 2 MMR vaccinations)but that is another matter.
Also, if rubella infection in the mother can trigger autism then one must also allow for the possibility that the live virus vaccine could also do the same.

also, how many other countries push the damned flu shots (with thim) on their PREGNANT mothers and INFANTS as much as the U.S. does? Never mind all the “catch-up shots” they recommend to pregnant females. Also, it would be interesting to know what percentage of medical practitioners are pediatricians VS family doctors in other countries since it’s the peds that seem to base their existence (medically) on the vaccinating of infants.

@Jen –

You seem to have a lot of questions for someone who claims to know for sure that vaccines are dangerous.

I think if you were honest about where your beliefs originated, there would be no science, reason or statistics behind it. Someone presented an antecdote or story that you chose to believe. Then you went looking for “evidence” to support it.

I’m sorry that you don’t respect how science works. But the people who post here typically do. You aren’t going to change anyone’s mind with your nonsense.

Maryn: so I have questions. Isn’t that healthy? If I didn’t you’d be bitching about that. Yeah, if I were a pregant female right now all those “anecdotes” would be part of the new reality that 1 in 58 boys will have autism. It would scare the hell out of me.
A few scientific studies showing more cause for concern (and they’re even on Pubmed) are:
“Aluminum hydroxide injection lead to motor deficits and motor neuron degeneration.” /09
“Neurotoxic effects of postnatal thimerosal are mouse strain dependent.”
“The rise in autism and the role of age at diagnosis.” Epidemiology.

Interestingly, the IOM, in the mid 90’s, did acknowledge that MMR causing autism was “biologically plausible.”

Yes. In the 90’s.

You know what time it is now?

It’s not even the end of the 90’s; it’s the end of the decade after that.

Certain speculations which are plausible before evidence has been collected cease to be plausible when the evidence comes in solidly against the speculation. Making a big deal of the fact that, in the 90’s, the IOM considered the MMR-causes-autism hypothesis “biologically plausible”, and neglecting to mention all the evidence that came in over a period of more than a decade which debunked the hypothesis, is intellectually dishonest on a level equal to pointing out that at the very end of July 1996 the FBI considered it ‘quite plausible’ that Richard Jewell was the Centennial Olympic Park bomber, and neglecting everything that came after that period of initial suspicion.

Jen: I guess my bigger question is – Why are you here? You ask questions, but you don’t listen to the answers. You are not going to convince anyone here with the comments you are posting. You have stated nothing new that has not been addresses before.

What are you hoping to get out of this site?

Maryn: you said I had no “science, reason or statistics” behind my view but I did point to three RECENT studies,per Antonaeus Feldspar’s point, that show some problems with vaccines. They weren’t comments. They were studies that no one has responded to.
AC: What in God’s name is a CAM practitioner?? xxx alternative medicine? You never responded to Philip (253).
How can I be “unteachable/rigid”(storkdok) yet “ask alot of questions?” (Maryn). Doesn’t add up. It’s such a drag when you can’t fit someone into a neat little box, isn’t it?
THis post has taken about 15 hits of trying to make it go through so will be my last. Either someone doesn’t want this continuing or there is a computer problem. Hmmmmmnnnn…
Finally, what am I hoping to get out of this site? Satisfaction;)

I’ve shut nothing down.

@281

If you are wondering what CAM stands for may I suggest going to Google.com. Good resource that.

@283

If you told her she wouldn’t believe you anyway. To her mercury is mercury it is bad and in vaccines. When something doesn’t match what she already “knows” it gets brain-dumped.

“What am I hoping to get out of this site? Satisfaction;)”

If being an aggressively ignorant pain in the ass is satisfying, jen must be grinning like the Cheshire cat. Clearly she gets off on arguing, regardless of whether she’s right or wrong (and I’m sure in her mind she’s never been wrong). She feels she has nothing to learn and she refuses to rationally discuss the issue of anti-vaccine activism. By continuing to argue with her, we’re just feeding into her sick little conflict fetish. Maybe if we ignore her, she’ll go bother somebody else.

jen says “What am I hoping to get out of this site? Satisfaction;)”

Does jen meet criteria for:
Narcissistic personality D/O: check yes
Antisocial personality D/O: check yes
Borderline personality D/O: check yes

Explains a lot.

MI Dawn: “more than very tiny traces of thimerasol.” If the dose makes the poison then maybe even doses that tiny could be harmful (especially cumulatively).You can google up flu vaccines and see that many versions have thim. Flu shots are widely recommended in the U.S. and even here now(especially by the peds) for infants 6 months and above. You can go to Walmart or Walgreens and get thim-laced shots very easily. You think they’re giving out all single vial doses? Walmart doesn.t give a shit that you’re pregnant. The recommendations just say flu shots. They don’t say single-dose-thim-free flu shots. But, I will double check that. Storkdok, honestly I don’t meet the phsychiatric manual definition for those things. I have made some “overly confident”-type remarks at times but things can get heated and it happens. What about the aluminum hydroxide? Isn’t anybody concerned about that.

MI Dawn: I just looked up the CDC schedule and it says simply to get the influenza vaccine (in chart form). There is zero reference to the thim-free versions or single-dose recommendations for infants or pregnant women. It is simply recommended. Period.

Jen, there is no evidence that thimerosal is a problem for anyone. They took it out of the childhood vaccines, and they make it available for kids and pregnant woman, because of the degree of scientifically unjustified public outcry about this particular ingredient. Thimerosal free vaccines aren’t, as far as I know, ‘recommended’ for any medical reason, barring a specific allergy.

Your comment at 290 indicates that you don’t understand the meaning of ‘the dose makes the poison’. And thus far you haven’t demonstrated that you know the difference between ethyl and methyl mercury, especially with respect to how each is processed by the human body (even a tiny baby one).

But surely this is just an inconsequential distraction. What has thimerosal got to do with the connection you claim exists between vaccines and autism?

@jen:
“I think it would be incredibly arrogant not to feel alot of empathy for parents currently having children and having to make these decisions.”

It is people like you who are creating the issue for parents nowadays. My 3 kids were born in 1995, 1996 and 2007. With the older 2 no one wondered whether I was going to get them their shots. I was shocked when I found out there was a “controversy” around childhood immunizations when I had my third. Lo and behold, something happened between 1996 and 2007. A quack in the UK and the spread of the internet to the masses, where people like you gain some selective “knowledge” without understanding, created the “controversy” where none truly exists.

Thanks for those links, Scientizzle. Jen will not read them though.

As an epidemiologist, I am reluctant to post anecdotes. But as the parent of a son with ASD, here I go. Our extended family has three children in one generation (the most current) with diagnosed ASD. However, we also have a number of undiagnosed ASD older relatives (sheesh, one of my cousins collects wrapping-paper!), along with a contingent of just odd folks and engineers. The genetics is strong in my family! Many of us know we are border-line, and family gatherings often consist of us comparing odd behaviour for a laugh.

Jen: I’m sorry if people aren’t responding to you in as timely a fashion as you’d like. Some of us have other things to do of a Saturday evening.

I looked at the links you posted. Did you actually find those on PubMed or Generation Rescue? Because if you searched “vaccine autism” on PubMed you’d find about 400 results stating that there is no link.

It’s natural for parents to seek and listen to the advice of BTDT fellow parents, but when it comes to health issues, it’s not just the “55-year-old researcher” that will get my attention. On the issue of vaccines, all government health agencies in my state, in the US (CDC), and in the world (WHO); all (legit) professional bodies such as the AAP; all health insurance companies and the major organization that rates health insurance companies (NCQA) say “get your vaccines”! (unless contraindicated, that is)

Jim Carrey is wrong. Jenny and Jen and Jim and their crazy buddies are the problem.

Maryn: I know what you mean; I’ve been working on a “bobsled run” with my son. Yes, you will see studies to show both no concern and ones to show cause for concern. All on Pubmed. Again, though, what about Gardasil doing “safety” studies by giving the “control/placebo” group aluminum hydroxide?
I know that they have found (so far) that there are some genetics involved in some small percentage of autism cases. I also know that Tom Insel’s comments on the latest CDC autism surveillance report was that “there is no question that there has got to be an environmental component here.”
(gmtrixie)something DID happen between /94 and 2009 and they saw that 8 year olds (kids during hep b uptake increase) were more likely to have autism.

Also something else happened in 1994.

Chicken pox is not harmless. Before the vaccine over a hundred people died from it every year, and then it leaves the person vulnerable to shingles when they are older.

From CDC Pink Book:

In the prevaccine era, approximately 11,000 persons with varicella required hospitalization each year. Hospitalization rates were approximately 2–3 per 1,000 cases among healthy children and 8 per 1,000 cases among adults. Death occurred in approximately 1 in 60,000 cases. From 1990 through 1996, an average of 103 deaths from varicella were reported each year. Most deaths occur in immunocompetent children and adults. Since 1996, the number of hospitalizations and deaths from varicella has declined more than 90%

I live not terribly far from the local Ronald McDonald house, where families live while their child is receiving treatment. The other children will attend the local schools, including the one my kids went through. The year before there was a vaccine chicken pox swept through the school. The school nurse was not happy with the parents who sent their children to school with fevers at that time (one sent her kid in with a bottle of Tylenol!), as it was possible to spread chicken pox to the siblings of children who were already in the hospital.

You really should show more empathy to parents of children with health issues.

@jen

You clearly did not bother to take my advice. Instead of taking time to educated yourself (e.g., by reading Science-Based Medicine’s articles, antiantivax and the links there, information about vaccines available from places like the CDC, FDA, AAP, Mayo Clinic, WHO, Health Canada and numerous other places), you continue to spew nonsense and personal conjecture with nothing to back your ideas up. For example, when it was pointed out that thimerosal exists only in trace amounts, at most, in a few vaccines, you suggest that even trace amounts might be dangerous. Unless you have some evidence to support such a supposition, you had best keep your mouth shut. It is just as irresponsible as if I were to suggest, without presenting any evidence, that the guy two houses down from you was a repeat child molester. Not to mention the one across the street and the fellow around the corner. I mean, you never know. And I’m only asking questions.

You claim that you are a caring individual and that your friends and colleagues would laugh at the accusations that have been tossed your way. Yet you also state that you don’t care what image you present here. That’s all we have to go on, and so far, you have presented yourself as someone who assumes to know what everyone else thinks or believes; someone who asks questions yet ignores the answers because they don’t jive with your preconceived notions and beliefs; someone who is, quite plainly, being an ignorant jerk. Ignorant, because instead of educating yourself, you keep spewing the same stupid comments that are addressed on many of the sites I listed above, not to mention in various of Orac’s posts, as well as an failure to even begin to acknowledge to yourself what you do and do not know. Jerk because you maintain an insulting, arrogant, childish attitude, not caring for how your comments will affect others. You maintain a “Well so-and-so did it first” attempt to rationalize your own reprehensible behavior.

Once again, start to educate yourself. Pay a visit to antiantivax as a starting point. Read about thimerosal there. Read about VAERS. Read about aluminum. Read the whole page. Once you’ve done that, follow the links on that page and read their information. That should give you a decent basis from which you might gain better insight from Orac’s other articles and those at SBM. I would also recommend learning about how to evaluate a study. SBM actually has a really good couple of articles on what to watch for…things that mark a study as either of likely good quality or that raise red flags that the study may be of dubious quality.

Educate yourself. Educate yourself. Educate yourself.

@jen

Vaccines have never been studied in combination yet are given that way routinely.

Citation needed.

the dsm autism criteria did expand to include Aspergers. That confuses things. It seems kind of fishy that they didn’t do a more detailed,specific analysis of the data when in fact they have done that before. In Brick Township they surveyed kids born from /88 to /95 and did very detailed diagnosing.And did see a rise. Again, it just seems like they have fudged the data to start comparing rates in the /90’s when vaccination was at an all -time high (and will only get worse). It has definitely increased since the 70’s or 80’s. Parents today aren’t stupid. Chris, I’m sorry that your kid has health problems. You did appear to change your story, though.
Todd: I sure as hell don’t need a citation to show that peds/nurses routinely shoot kids up with many vaccines all at one time, to “catch-up” etc. You have to be kidding!!!!!

Lack of coherency and actual data duly noted.

@jen

Your claim was not that peds/nurses “routinely shoot kids up with many vaccines all at one time”. You claimed that vaccines “have never been studied in combination”. You need to provide a citation for that.

As it happens, FDA has guidance documents for industry about how clinical trials are designed for new products, such as vaccines. Those guidance documents suggest including concomitant vaccines in the study design. They also have guidance on testing new combo vaccines against the vaccines given as individual shots (e.g., a DTaP-Hib vs. DTaP and Hib individually). While guidance documents are not legally binding, a company is very unlikely to get a product approved if they go against a guidance without some really good explanations of why the guidance should not apply.

I also picked a vaccine at random (Merck’s MMR-II vaccine) and looked at the package insert (available on the FDA site), where I found:

M-M-R II has been administered concurrently with VARIVAX* [Varicella Virus Vaccine Live (Oka/Merck)], and PedvaxHIB* [Haemophilus b Conjugate Vaccine (Meningococcal Protein Conjugate)] using separate injection sites and syringes. No impairment of immune response to individually tested vaccine antigens was demonstrated. The type, frequency, and severity of adverse experiences observed with M-M-R II were similar to those seen when each vaccine was given alone.
Routine administration of DTP (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis) and/or OPV (oral poliovirus vaccine) concurrently with measles, mumps and rubella vaccines is not recommended because there are limited data relating to the simultaneous administration of these antigens.
However, other schedules have been used. The ACIP has stated “Although data are limited concerning the simultaneous administration of the entire recommended vaccine series (i.e., DTaP [or DTwP], IPV [or OPV], Hib with or without Hepatitis B vaccine, and varicella vaccine), data from numerous studies have indicated no interference between routinely recommended childhood vaccines (either live, attenuated, or killed). These findings support the simultaneous use of all vaccines as recommended.”³²

So, it looks like studies have been done on use of multiple vaccines together.

Again, jen, stop swallowing the garbage put out by antivaxers and learn facts.

More information Hep B.

You obviously did not understand that children who have health issues are more vulnerable to a bad outcome with chicken pox. Considering the quality of your use of English, I guess I shall chalk up your treatment of me, the other parents here, and the excerpt from the CDC Pink Book as a case of lack of reading comprehension. So be it.

What you need to do now is to post some actual data and evidence. You claim that there are vaccine injured children, provide the evidence. Make sure it is high quality evidence, not a random website.

@Chris (#313): Very interesting article. When I worked in the newborn nursery, I actually had 1 baby die of SIDS at 3 days old. This was pre-routine Hep B injections, so the only injection the baby got was the Vitamin K. He was a healthy baby who was alive at 5 am when the lab tech drew his blood for a bilirubin test, and he was dead and cold when I went to feed him at 5:30 am. We coded the baby for 45 minutes (fortunately, we actually had a pediatrician in-house that night; we usually didn’t) but it was useless. If it had happened 3 years later it could have been blamed on Hep B, I guess. (SIDS is rare at that young age, but it does happen.)

Chris, insults and obvious points (children with health problems are more vulnerable to a bad outcome from chicken pox)duly noted. Fine, then let those kids get the chicken pox vaccines. It’s a paren’ts call as to what their particular child needs in terms of vaccination. Also, sick children (as at least addressed by Calli) should not be getting vaccines and sadly, they often do. (sorry no citation available or needed). A teacher at the school I work at had moved recently from Sask to Alberta and at his recent health clinic visit they “caught him up” with chicken pox, dpt and another one all in one visit. Sorry, again no citation. It happened in this instance and it happens all the time.
Yeah, and if I wanted to muddy the waters about autism prevalence I think I would conduct the ADDM suryvey the way they did. Not break down the data. Shrewd move. There’s still a rise in autism.
Your snarkiness really comes through at times and I am tempted to comment as to why there is a need for that “qualified” psychologist.

@jen

You claim that autism rates have risen, and that there is an epidemic. When did this rise begin? Provide a citation.

For your reading pleasure, here’s some information on a recent study in the U.K. which found that the rate of autism in adults was about 1%, the same as the rate in children. Guess what else? The rate in men was about 1.8% (~1 in 58).

Granted, this is in the U.K., so its results might not translate to the U.S., but I doubt it. I’ll try to find whether a similar study has been done in the U.S. recently. Most studies only focus on children.

This has been an enlightening thread, for a spectator like me anyway.
It’s turned out the way most arguments with tenacious anti-vaxxers goes (and jen actually seems more reasonable than a lot of them. Room for improvement perhaps, but there’s worse, you have to admit).
They’ll soften their positions and move around a bit but they will never ever, in the face of everything to the contrary, drop the “yeah but there’s something with vaccines…” as the last word. Doesn’t matter if evidence shows it’s not connected autism, not what’s in ’em, not how many, not mixtures of things in ’em, or the fact that they’re all quite different. There still has to be something with vaccines, and we can’t stop looking for it in general. It’s like vaccination, the concept, is some dark magic where humankind ought not dabble, or something. It’s very strange.

Todd

Just had to say, I love your “f***ing wordy” comments. One can learn much from them, if they are interested in learning.

She also seems to conveniently forget that she has made lots of claims, yet forgets to provide evidence.

Todd

Good advice! Getting angry and emotional is not very scientific. I will try to concentrate on adding to the conversation and ignore the irrationality of some.

Calli, I am so glad you posted again because I think your message is really important. I was going to re-post what you said in #319 but now I don’t have to. Todd, apologies accepted. I understand that things can get heated. I really do appreciate that Orac has set something up where people can debate (although I do understand that I quote from studies less which isn’t the standard here) the issue. I just really think that there is a real increase in all these problems and I think that vaccines aren’t off the table in terms of causing harm. Hopefully we all have the kids’ best interests at heart. Uh oh… looks like there’s a new article up!

jen:

I think that vaccines aren’t off the table in terms of causing harm.

Then please present your evidence. Something on the order of this.

I don’t think diagnostic substitution would be that big a confounder to investigating a link with parental age. If you were looking at it as “parental age vs. time” and “autism incidence vs. time”, then it would be a problem. But you can more simply look at parental age vs. autism incidence directly, within a single birth cohort.

I’m sure there would be other confounders in such a study. For example, if parents who have one autistic child are less likely to have another child, that will tend to skew autistic children to younger parents (since a disproportionate number of autistic children would then be firstborns). But I don’t see diagnostic substitution being a major issue.

After writing the above, I decided to act on my suspicion that this idea was a bit too obvious for nobody to have looked at before. So I did a bit of a PubMed search (“parental age” autism). And, in fact, came up with a fair bit. For example:

This study shows an association

So does this meta-analysis

Here is a helpful hint, Scott: The PubMed links still work if you remove everything from the first question mark on. For example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19567888

No problem. Over a decade ago on Usenet (no HTML allowed!) someone gave me similar advice for Amazon links so they would only be on one line. Just copy from before the /ref, like:
http://www.amazon.com/Autisms-False-Prophets-Science-Medicine/dp/0231146361

I was almost 31 when I gave birth to my first, and then some of the mothers of kids the same age as mine were between 37 and 42 before the birth of their fist child.

A bit off topic, but related…

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/125/Supplement_1/S1

Hopefully, this will be the beginning of the end of using antipsychotics as a first line treatment for behavior problems in children with autism.

I heard that aluminum causes brain damage in forum trolls…

How can you tell?

Jason: “What’sthe point of arguing with an indivudal so ensconced in a point of view?”

Because there may be people out there who are prone to believe Jen, but can be convinced otherwise by rational evidence

It is conjecture at best. Trying to give a simple answer to a complex question. Nothing to see there, especially since no real data was presented.

According to The Center’s founder, William McFaul, a retired business person and not a member of the scientific community “Because of its universal applicability, our Life Sciences group has already used the model as a tool to identify highly probable causal paths for several illnesses and disease entities.

“retired business person and universal applicability” redlined my bullshit detector right there. Essentially it is “tooth fairy science” – providing an explanation for a correlation that doesn’t exist. The epidemiological data does not support a link between the MMR vaccine and autism.

Biology is complicated. Please don’t hold your breath for “one answer.”

As for this blog, I do not believe anything has been presented as “fact” unless there is supporting evidence. We do have an open mind, you just have to show the actual evidence.

I for one will await validation or refutation of this model in a lab, rather than by message board opinion.

Well, Gordon, that’s actually very intelligent of you. Because it’s very close to what they should have done; they should have awaited scientific validation or refutation of this model before announcing in a press release that their completely untested hypothesis was the answer to the puzzle of autism.

Right now, they have done nothing that entitles them to be taken seriously. Have they come up with a hypothesis about what causes autism? Yeah, but so what? There’s nothing special or admirable about coming up with a hypothesis. What’s special is coming up with a hypothesis that survives testing, and that’s the step that this “think tank” shows no signs of taking.