Thanks to Autism News Beat, I’ve found the Penn & Teller: Bullshit! episode Vaccination in a streaming form. I have two warnings. First, if you’re not familiar with Penn & Teller, you should be prepared for lots of profanity, including liberal use of the F-word. There is also one scene with a topless woman near the end. If you’re easily offended, then you probably shouldn’t watch. You have been warned. Second, you have to hit the arrow directly in order not to go to the website hosting the streaming video:
I have to say, I’ve rarely seen a more visually effective way of portraying the benefits of vaccination than was shown in the opening scene of the episode. It was particularly effective how it pointed out that, even if vaccines did cause autism in 1 in a 110 children, the risk-benefit ratio would still favor vaccination.
I was also pleased that, for the most part, Penn & Teller got the science right. Oh, there was the occasional niggling omission, such as saying that mercury was removed from vaccines in 1999 when in reality thimerosal-containing vaccines were ordered removed from vaccines in 1999 and, because existing stocks didn’t expire until then, it wasn’t until the end of 2001/early 2002 that thimerosal-containing vaccines were off the shelf and childhood vaccines other than the flu vaccine contained no more than trace thimerosal. Penn & Teller did get it right, however, to emphasize that, if mercury in vaccines did cause autism then autism rates would have begun to plummet by now. It’s also very simplistic to ascribe the beginning of the anti-vaccine movement to Andrew Wakefield’s infamous (and now retracted) Lancet paper in 1998. The anti-vaccine movement existed long before Wakefield ever thought to take cash from a trial lawyer to produce “science” to support his lawsuits against vaccine manufacturers. I do, however, understand how hard that would have been to explain in a half hour show and still have time to get to the meat of the issue. It was also particularly amusing how they portrayed themselves in the introduction as just the “C-level, self-righteous, celebrity talking head nutjobs” to counter a certain well-known C-level celebrity nutjob (Jenny McCarthy, in the slim case that you can’t guess) who’s been promoting the scientifically discredited myth that vaccines cause autism.
One character the producers managed to persuade to agree to show up on camera is Wendy Callahan, Co-Director of Vaccination Liberation and the director of the Florida chapter of Vaccine Information and Liberation. Her website, Vaccine Information, is a cornucopia of anti-vaccine craziness, including parodies of pro-vaccine posters, links to articles about quackery like homeopathy, and posters labeled “pharmageddon” that show children fleeing from syringes with skulls and crossbones on them. In her very first segment, she labels parents who vaccinate as “child abusers” and says, “you can’t poison yourself into health.” Particularly amusing was Penn & Teller’s deconstruction of the dreaded “toxin” gambit, in which Ms. Callahan said, “These ingredients don’t belong in a vaccine. They belong in a Satanic ritual.”
I’m still not sure why they’d use formaldehyde in a Satanic ritual. On the other hand, why is Ms. Callahan so afraid of DNA? Geez, every cell in her body has DNA in it!
Another anti-vaccine loon on the show is named Carl Buzz, and, boy, oh, boy this guy can bring home the crazy. He’s the guy who was featured on the preview video I posted last week. What amazed me about this guy is how he so effortlessly and seriously claimed that, before around 1945 (which to him was when vaccines were started), there was no cancer. There was no cancer in dogs. I wonder how Carl explains William Halsted’s radical mastectomy for breast cancer then. He did, after all, develop this operation in the 19th century. That’s just a wee bit before 1945.
One interesting aspect of this show that I hadn’t expected was that our old friend, pediatrician to Jenny McCarthy’s son Evan, Dr. Jay Gordon showed up right there before the five minute mark. There’s nothing new in what he says in the show to anyone who’s been a regular reader of this blog for more than a year or two. Search for his name on this blog and, in particular, read my posts about him entitled Dr. Jay Gordon: Will you please stop claiming you’re not an antivaccinationist? and Dr. Jay Gordon: No vaccines needed, just quit eating cheese and ice cream to get an idea of the sorts of nonsense about vaccines that Dr. Jay routinely spews.
Or just listen to Dr. Jay on the show. He first shows up in what I assume to be his Santa Monica practice location, complete with the expected pictures of animals on the walls that any self-respecting pediatrician must have. He also spews a large amount of his usual blather, in particular ignoring all the lessons we’ve tried to teach him right here on this blog about confusing correlation with causation. More shockingly, around the 11 minute mark, Dr. Jay opines:
Children should not be vaccinated. This is very much at odds with the mainstream medical point of view, which says that there’s no connection between vaccines and autism. I think that that is a flat out lie.
Whoa. Is it really true? Did Dr. Jay just say flat out that he doesn’t think children should be vaccinated? It sure sounded that way. However, over on Autism News Beat, Dr. Jay is backpedaling:
I spoke moderately, listened to their promises about how the issue would be presented and felt sad that they cut off the beginning of my sentence: “[I’m certainly not saying that) children should not be vaccinated.” I’m not thrilled with Andy Wakefield’s choosing his control subjects from a birthday party or some of my allies repeating “antifreeze” comments.
Leaving aside my irritation that Dr. Jay, who himself parroted the “formaldehyde in vaccines” lie until I gave him a blog beat down for it and who apparently doesn’t even try to correct Jenny McCarthy when she parrots the “antifreeze in vaccines” lie, I really hope that the producers of Penn & Teller didn’t play fast and loose with Dr. Jay’s quote, as he claims. I can’t really tell, but if he really did say what he claims he said and his segment was edited to make it sound as though he said the opposite, that’s a big problem. It is, however, easily provable one way or the other; all we need is the tape of the interview leading up to that statement.
Even if Penn & Teller did go too far in “creative editing,” while such an act would deserve condemation, it still wouldn’t excuse Dr. Jay from much of the other nonsense he spews in the show, for instance, his claim that children who were developing normally became autistic right in his office after shots. Seriously, Dr. Jay said that between the 11:00 and 12:00 mark. With apologies to my audience, I call bullshit on that, just as I do on a lot of other things that he says, in particular his support of the utter nonsense that Jenny McCarthy produces on the topic. In fact, I say to Dr. Gordon right now (because I know he’ll come whining here soon) that one of my favorite lines in the entire show was this:
Dr. Gordon’s support has helped to legitimize McCarthy’s amazing transformation from Playboy model to public health expert.
I’m also quite happy that we now have Dr. Gordon on record as taking responsibility for his supporting parents who don’t want to vaccinate, as he explicitly does in this show. I agree with Penn and Teller. I hope Dr. Jay gets everything he has coming to him for that decision.
So what do I think overall about the show? Mostly, I liked it. It’s very blunt in a way that too few people are willing to be blunt about the quackery and pseudoscience that is the anti-vaccine movement. I had a few minor quibbles about how factual information was presented. but none of them detracted from the basic message about vaccines. My only big concern is whether Dr. Jay’s claim regarding his quote being creatively edited is true. Looking at what is there, though, I’m not sure I entirely buy Dr. Jay’s claim, quite simply because of what follows, in which he says “This is very much at odds with the mainstream medical interview.” In any case, the show hit most of the right notes, made most of the right points, and made them in an in-your-face style that shows just why the anti-vaccine movement is “bullshit.”
334 replies on “Penn & Teller deconstruct the anti-vaccine movement, not to mention an old friend of the blog, Dr. Jay Gordon”
I was only sorry that the show was only 30 minutes long. We enjoyed it immensely, even our Mr 13 – and I don’t just mean he liked the topless lady at the end! I’ve never seen Dr Jay Gordon before. For some reason I’d imagined him as being much younger and quite good-looking! There was NO creative editing with his quote. I’ve just been back and looked again and I’m certain he said what he said! I guess this shows that he’s clearly enjoyed the publicity he gets for being anti-vaccine – let’s face it, he wouldn’t have met Jenny McJugs or Oprah Winfrey, otherwise – and has finally decided not to beat around the bush with his insincere “I’m not really an anti-vaccinationist” claims anymore!
I was at a party last night an talked to some people who watched this episode. It was nice to actually meet someone at a party who did not buy into the anti-vax line for once. While I do want to see this I am having a hard time sitting down and watching the episode. My ability to tolerate people lying or simply displaying the arrogance of ignorance has drastically plummeted in the last few months.
“the risk-benefit ratio”
Oh, how alties hate that thought. I’ve tried several times to bring that up, but was usually accused for “offering false dichotomies” and for “misleading arguments” – big words, but no substance.
Thanks, Penn&Teller, for making that point very clear!
You can cope Travis. Carl Buzz was so over-the-top loony you’d almost think he was acting. But sadly, he wasn’t. It truly is well worth a watch!
It’s all right; Jay Gordon has found a new source of income. He’s joined the board of advisors for Scientologist Kirstie Alley’s Organic Liaison weight loss program (Board of Advisors list here). He joins 3HO follower and HuffPo blogger Soram Khalsa, and the world’s first Liviticianâ¢, Deborah A Klein.
The Organic Liaison formulas are based on health theories developed by L Ron Hubbard.
@4: I especially love how they just let Buzz keep ranting on and on into the credits. Once the guy opened his mouth he started sounding a bit like Alex Jones, and by the time the credits rolled he sounded like the antivax movement’s equivalent of Kent Hovind.
Are you SURE “that thimerosal-containing vaccines wereare off the shelf?
Other than the flu vaccine, for which there is a thimerosal-free alternative, yes. Now, I know what you’re going to do. You’re going to go on about how there are still trace amounts of thimerosal in some vaccines. I’ve been in this game long enough to know that common anti-vaccine “gotcha,” but think of it this way. Yawn. The exposure level to mercury from vaccines is currently lower than it’s been in at least 20-25 years. So why haven’t autism rates fallen to what they were 20 years ago?
Orac I have stated before on this site that I am not anti-vaccine and that both of my sons have received their vaccine shots as recommended by our family physician in whom we have great confidence. Although I was skeptical about the alleged H1N1 pandemic, and although I am also skeptical about the efficacy of flu vaccines generally I got an H1N1 shot for myself as well since I transport my severely autistic son to and from school each day and am thereby in close proximity to other people’s children as well. For those reasons I felt it prudent to put aside my doubts and go with the authorities recommendations.
I have been involved in many discussions about autism rates. Over the past 20 years the diagnostic defintions of “autism” have been expanded, awareness has increased and services … allegedly … have increased for autism. There is considerable debate about whether real autism rates have increased or just the diagnosis. I believe it is both and I think that is the current thinking at the IACC. I don’t see how diagnostic change and increased ascertainment can be ignored when considering epidemiological studies over a period of 20 years in order to defend vaccine safety and yet be used to argue against the position that autism rates are actually increasing. The diagnostic rates are either a reliable indication of true prevalence of autism disorders or they are not. The statistical surveys over these periods of time simply are not the end of the discussion.
Some of the information presented at the US Senate proceedings a couple of weeks ago also indicated that mercury exposure has been consistently associated with higher rates of intellectual impairment and behavioral problems two key elements often associated with Autistic Disorder. Bruce Lanphear Ph.D. testified:
“Childrenâs developing brains are more vulnerable to certain toxicants and pollutants than adults. The central nervous systems of the fetus and young child, which are undergoing rapid changes, are particularly vulnerable to some toxicants. The fetus is a recipient of toxicants through placental transfer (Perera et al. 2003; Whyatt and Perera 1995; Bearer 2003). In some cases, such as mercury, the fetus is exposed to a larger dose than the mother (Ramirez et al. 2000).”
Dr. Bernadine Healey has been subjected to ad hominem attacks on this forum but she did state correctly that mercury crosses the placenta and studies confirming that information were referenced before the US Senate. The fetus is at much greater risk than the mother as the above quote indicates. She has stated that vaccines given to pregnant women have contained thimerosal.
I am a humble autism dad who belongs to neither camp in the autism-vaccine wars. I am not challenging your expertise about “trace” amounts but I would like to see the studies on which you rely to show that trace amounts of thimerosal in vaccines given to pregnant women can not cause developmental issues for the fetus including the various autism issues about which we still no so little.
Call me a quack or make allegations of woo if it makes you feel better. I see myself as a skeptic asking questions. I believe you might have been a skeptic once before taking on your current anti-anti vaxxer crusade. So please by all means and I say this with respect: please provide the references to studies which conclusively disprove any causal connection between vaccines given to pregnant women and autism disorders.
@Harold L. Doherty
Any thimerosal-containing vaccines that were still on the shelf after 2001/2002 would have been expired. Sure, it is possible, but those doctors who still had them would have been using expired vaccines and operating outside the standard of care.
There might be situations in which risk/benefit analysis is inapplicable, but how could it ever be a false dichotomy?
Ok then Jay..let’s try that:
??!
I’d imagine they mean ‘why should we have to choose between measles complications and autism’?
Except:
1. You don’t, because vaccines don’t cause autism.
2. Vaccines are the most effective way to not catch things like measles. If there was a better way that didn’t have the (low) risk of side effects, depend on what other parents do, and work on immuno-suppressed kids, then doctors would recommend it.
Well, I suppose you could tell everyone else to vaccinate and rely on herd immunity — then you neither have measles complications nor vaccine complications. But that makes you a jerk*, and if everyone does what you do, it falls apart.
* Obligatory disclaimer: if you/your kid actually has a reason to not get a vaccine beyond ‘I think they cause autism’, you are not a jerk.
Sauceress nailed the point in comment 12 that I was going to post, but I’ll extrapolate. Look at the whole context of Gordon’s quotation. There is NO WAY he was creatively edited, and I hope that P&T play the unedited tape and expose Gordon for further deception in this issue.
Sauceress nailed the point in comment 12 that I was going to post, but I’ll extrapolate. Look at the whole context of Gordon’s quotation. There is NO WAY he was creatively edited, and I hope that P&T play the unedited tape and expose Gordon for further deception in this issue.
You’re a piece of work. Vaccines generally aren’t given to pregnant women, with many of them being contraindicated, except by accident or some rare instances.
The CDC has a page on it:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/preg-guide.htm
The number one source of mercury is FISH. Better to ban FISH (they could use it, frankly) than to destroy civilization with plagues. The source for much of that mercury are coal-fired power plants. Have you gone off the grid? You know, practicing, if only tangentially, what you preach? Of course not… The fuck you’d do anything constructive, albeit futile, about it…
How about we put pregnant women in sterile environments. Lock them up. Kind of like a mental institution, where they lose all the freedom…
But more important, why don’t you just pay attention:
There is NO CAUSAL LINK. AT ALL. It’s a figment of the imagination of a bunch of whack-jobs jumping at shadows and lying to (and many of them deliberately exploiting) scared parents. You included.
Autism has “expanded” because they expanded the definition:
Changes in the definition of autism, rather than use of the measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine (MMR vaccine), led to increased diagnosis of autism in the United States and probably in Europe, says a study from the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota (Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine 2005;159:37-44).
Did you not get the memo FIVE YEARS AGO?
I’d have taken a minute to explain why people who don’t vaccinate their kids aren’t just putting their own kids at risk.
@ Harold L. Doherty, #9
That’s a valid point siunce we’re still not ure if the increase in autism is primarily diagnostic, or there are actually more cases over the last 20 years. But you’re missing the point. If thimerosal caused autism, its removal over the last decade should’ve shown a decline in autism rates, regardless of whether the diagnoses were due to less stringent criteria or not.
There’s a reason why people call trace amounts by that term. It means there’s just a barely detectable smidgen of the substance. Pregnant mothers also have trace elements of lead, uranium, and aluminium in their bodies, just like all of us do and all of us always had. If humans were so susceptable to trace amounts of anything, our entire species would be extinct long ago. Give our bodies at least some credit. We’re not fragile little snowflakes.
@Becca Stareyes
I have explained that to anti-vax parents on a parenting website before (calling them parasites, in fact), to which they responded that they would do anything to minimise the risk for their children, including being parasites.
They really didn’t see the issue with relying on others taking a risk (which is tiny in the first place, but they see as a large risk) for them. They think that they are so clever to have found a way to get the benefit of vaccines without any personal risk. I did point out that if that’s the case, they should be telling everyone to vaccinate, and secretly not vaccinate, since that serves their mission better.
Greg Fish you are preaching to the converted when you talk about our bodies not being fragile little snowflakes. I live in Canada and when I grew up children did not receive flu vaccines every year, or at all, despite flu outbreaks every winter. I expected to, and usually did, get the flu at least once a year. As kids we almost welcomed it as an excuse for a few days off school. It is that Canadian winter flu upbringing that makes me have serious doubts about the need for or the efficacy of FLU vaccines.
I’m really glad they brought in Dr. Wiznitzer (sp?). I’ve seen him interviewed a few times. I enjoy Dr. Offit too, but I think Wiznitzer is a better expert because he didn’t invent a vaccine and he actually treats austistic patients. I’m glad Dr. Offit is unapologetic about inventing a wonderful vaccine that saves many lives, but it leads to him being portrayed as the evil physician just looking for some extra dollars.
@9
[quote]So please by all means and I say this with respect: please provide the references to studies which conclusively disprove any causal connection between vaccines given to pregnant women and autism disorders.[/quote]
I’m not versed in any way on any form of medical science, but I am well versed in bad arguments. I understand your concern and don’t want to just outright bash the comment, but you’re asking for studies that prove a negative and that’s ridiculous.
Honestly, you could test 10,000,000,000 women and show that not one of them links vaccinations to autism and you still wouldn’t be “disproving” a “causal link between vaccinations and autism” as you can never exhaust the sample size of an exponentially growing global population. If that is what you’re looking for, honestly and forgive the hyperbole, you should really be asking for studies that disprove the causal link between drinking water and the rate of pancreatic cancer in middle-aged men. It’s just not possible. Hell, where are the studies that show that breathing isn’t a direct cause of prostate cancer? Can you disprove it? Not to anything that wouldn’t be a conclusion from a statistical model, but are you going to stop breathing just in case?
It sounds far-fetched but it’s really an apt analogy. As it’s been said time and time again, even IF, IF IF IF, vaccinations caused an increase in the chance for autism in children it is still safer to vaccinate your children based on countless statistical models. Prostate cancer is dangerous, but a lack of oxygen is much more dangerous and autism is a tragic condition but are pertussis, measles, H1N1, etc.
At the end of the day it’s up to you to interpret the data for yourself, and while my arguments may not be as rock solid as those who are in the fields I would like to make one final point: you call yourself a skeptic but claim that in order for your stance to be changed a negative position must be proven. I’m sorry, but if that’s the way you’re going about viewing a debate, you’re not a skeptic at all, you’re convinced of your belief until proved otherwise – despite the impossibility.
I very much doubt that Jay Gordon was “creatively edited”. As another poster noted, his claim of having a part of his sentence cut off makes no sense in the light of what he says directly afterwards. And there’s not a big difference between saying “Children should not be vaccinated” and the statement on Jay’s website that reads as follows:
“The best option at the present time might be to stop all vaccines if you understand and agree with the statistical risks involved with non-vaccination. This option is not acceptable for every family.”
http://drjaygordon.com/pediatricks/vaccinations-today.html
Jay also declared his opposition here to H1N1 vaccination.
Gordon’s backpedaling fits in well with his desire to have it both ways – to be a hero to antivaxers and those moms who love the idea of a brave maverick doctor, yet at the same time have the respect of his mainstream colleagues who practice science-based medicine. We’ve also seen how he peddles ludicrous antivax claims about vaccine “toxins”, comes here and hedges in response to criticism, then goes off and blithely repeats the toxin gambit again elsewhere (i.e. on his website, which still blathers on about aluminum, formalin and the need to get “the rest of the mercury” out of vaccines).
Given all this, I’m much more likely at this point to trust Penn & Teller than Jay Gordon.
It’s also amusing that Jay is upset with P&T for airing his comments, while he was steamed at PBS’ Frontline “vaccine wars” program for not using his interview. Apparently while Jay loves publicity, he’s not happy unless he can stage-manage it to his liking.
@Harold L Doherty
I am also a Canadian who didn’t have flu shots, but I disagree entirely with your position. It is equivalent to the argument that “well, we never used seatbelts growing up, and we’re fine.”
Yes, the majority of people survive influenza without complications. A much larger majority survive vaccination without complications. Choosing between the two, the vaccination is less risky. Not only is it less risky for the individual (which it is), it prevents that individual serving as a disease vector for someone more vulnerable.
Those disease outbreaks may well have caused deaths in more vulnerable groups, while you were enjoying your time off school – and you or another one of your non-vaccinated peers may have been a vector that delivered a fatal influenza.
“I’m certainly not saying that children should not be vaccinated.This is very much at odds with the mainstream medical point of view, which says that there’s no connection between vaccines and autism. I think that that is a flat out lie.”
it doesn’t look right like this, but the quote could still make sense if the “this” of “this is very much at odds…” modifies a statement made before “i’m certainly not saying…”
like, suppose before the entire quote above dr. jay said something along the lines of ‘children should be vaccinated on an individualized schedule.’ it would be this opinion that is “very much at odds with the mainstream medical POV.”
just to give him the benefit of the doubt here. i used to be a journalist in a former life, and when people speak, it’s much more difficult to organize thoughts than when they’re writing, so you see this kind of syntax a lot. editing quotes to maintain the speaker’s intended meaning is a huge responsibility, and i’ll be very disappointed if penn and teller intentionally manipulated dr. jay, even though i’m not a fan of his.
Harold–
“We didn’t have flu shots and we survived” is confirmation bias. Everyone you know, vaccinated or not, whether or not they wore seatbelts or played with matches or climbed cliffs without safety gear or sat in a tree and read all day, survived. The ones who died of the flu, or in car crashes, or because a tree limb fell on them, aren’t part of the sample. Maybe flu shots don’t make a significant difference in childhood mortality rates in northern Canada: but to test that you would need to compare total mortality of vaccinated and unvaccinated populations. Not just “we survived,” but a check of everyone born in the same years you and your siblings were in that town, compared to a similar vaccinated cohort. (And then control for a wide range of confounding effects. This would not be simple.)
Also, part of why we vaccinate children is to protect adults. The kid with a flu shot is a kid who doesn’t infect her 80-year-old grandfather.
I agree with the others that the context of the comment makes it very difficult to understand if it was what Jaybird says.
But then again, if P&T did selectively edit the quote, it may have been because they could see how much of an asshole Gordon is, and wanted to toast the slimeball. I’m not one for deception, but I can certainly understand that sentiment.
It might be possible that Gordon was saying that people who are trying to portray him as being completely anti vaccine are the ones who are lying but this seems like a stretch.
Which contains more mercury, a vaccine shot with thimiserol or a filet of fish?
(I’d say the fish but I don’t have any numbers in front of me)
@Alareth
Depends on the kind of fish. A 6 oz. can of tuna has around 50-60 mcg of mercury. The only recommended vaccine with thimerosal, the flu vaccine, tops out at 25 mcg of mercury per dose. Also, there’s the difference in the type of mercury. Thimerosal breaks down to ethylmercury, which clears the body in a matter of days to about a week. The fish contains methylmercury, which takes weeks to months to clear the body. And before someone claims that eating exposes you to less than injected, about 95% of ingested organic mercury (like methylmercury) is absorbed in the GI tract. Click on my name for more info and links to sources (under the Thimerosal section).
@ 9 Harold L Doherty,
Even if this is true, there is no reason to believe that it has anything to do with vaccines.
Even if this is true, there is no reason to believe that it has anything to do with autism.
Toxic levels of many different things can affect the fetus.
You need to provide some kind of evidence that the toxic effects of mercury produce symptoms of autism.
You need to provide some kind of evidence that the toxic effects of aluminum produce symptoms of autism.
You need to provide some kind of evidence that the toxic effects of formaldehyde produce symptoms of autism.
Show that the symptoms of autisms can be produced by mercury, or aluminum, or formaldehyde, or whatever the latest scary name being promoted as the root of all evil.
Naming a bunch of ingredients and blaming a different ingredient, depending on which day it is, is not evidence of anything, except a lack of understanding of medicine.
If you cite Blaylock, I will just point to the articles that point out that he is not a credible scientist.
.
Although I *totally* cannot play the video,if I could, I would look at a few things: do P&T portray other participants ( either pro or anti vax ) in a distorted fashion through selective editing ? How do P&T’s representations of others (e.g. Jenny, Ms. Callahan, SBM interviewees) line-up with their respective public views on the issue (books, blogs)? While I realize that P&T are entertainers, it’s hard to demarcate where hyperbole and “poetic license” (in the service of creating comedy) shade off into misrepresentation.(( Contrasting the minute doses of mercury being discussed with the “good old days” (c.WWI) when patients diagnosed with syphilis were given mercury in _tablet_ form because the more modern, *arsenic-based* treatment wasn’t available – from Judith Thurman’s bio of Isak Dinesen)).
Maybe he should write a nasty letter to himself, making the accusation that he misquoted himself. Can’t you see the conspiracy?!??!!11!!HG!!!
.
so you say they “got it right” when they said that autism rates should have plummeted after the supposed removal of mercury from the vaccine schedule? What about all this “flu” shot pushing (complete with mercury) that dovetailed nicely with the removal of the thim with the other shots???? They push that flu shot stuff like there’s no tomorrow-Christ they’d set up in 7 eleven if they’d let them.
Don’t forget:
http://scienceblogs.com/bookclub/2008/10/finally_science_pushes_back_ag.php#comment-1135651
Sounds to me like “Children should not be vaccinated” is inline with his beliefs if he “reluctantly” vaccinates when parents wish to. Listening to the inflection in the quote, it’s hard for me to envision such a preface. It’s possible, but the evidence seems stacked against it.
Here is another ‘Jayism’ that doesn’t support his whining about P&T’s editing of his statement and actually supports what was aired:
@jen
Can you elucidate the amount of mercury in vaccines before thimerosal was removed? How much was a child exposed to in any single visit?
How does that amount compare to the amount found in thimerosal-containing flu vaccines? How does it compare to thimerosal-free flu vaccines?
Which flu vaccines were children receiving? What was the actual uptake of flu vaccine?
Unless you can show that the amount of mercury from thimerosal in the flu vaccine is about equal to or greater than what was found in a single visit for immunization pre-2001/2002, and that the uptake of flu vaccine in children is about the same as TCV uptake in children pre-2001/2002, you cannot call into question the claim that autism rates should have plummeted.
So, present your evidence. Oh, and keep in mind that the amount of mercury in the flu vaccine is less than what is found in a can of tuna.
MosesZD: YOU are the piece of work when you claim that vaccines generally aren’t given to pregnant women! What the heck does “generally” mean? Doesn’t sound very scientifically quantified to me. Then again, I myself don’t have a stat on how many women in an OB’s practice are advised of and get vaccines. I do know that I saw many recommendations for women to get the H1N1 shot and it seems to me that in practices where there is a monetary incentive for the doctor to administer vaccinations then oh, trust, it’s happening.
@Todd re. 37: Yeah but I can choose not to eat the tuna and deal with that. I can also choose not to vaccinate the snot out of my kids. I might hear alot of guilting from people such as yourselves but I can and do avoid some of the vaccine schedule. Re. your other points about thim. They are excellent questions. Why don’t you try to answer them? Are they answerable?!! Are there stats to show that it is safe? If not, WHY not?!! Isn’t it pretty disingenuous to claim, “oh it’s safe now that we’ve removed all the thim” when in fact flu shots (complete with thim) dovetailed that removal from some of the others in the schedule? Oh yeah, AND to pregnant women and babies starting as early as possible (six months or less). That’s pure genius. So, TOdd, you find those stats. Where are they? Why aren’t they? You asked some damn good questions and there should be some damn solid answers. But there aren’t, are there?
David, you’re a smart guy, you know that I’ve listened to everything you and others have said here at RI and you must know that they edited the daylights out of my comments to virtually reverse by 180 degrees the sense of what I wanted to convey.
To understand some sense of Penn’s intelligence, good taste and wisdom, I refer you to a much more typical example of his recent thoughts.
http://revision3.com/pennpoint/handjobs
The producers are unethical and dishonest and Penn is just a clown.
You, however, should be able to figure this out. Shame on you for being so easily duped.
Best,
Jay
@jen
You’re the one making the claim. You provide your evidence.
Jen said:
“I do know that I saw many recommendations for women to get the H1N1 shot and it seems to me that in practices where there is a monetary incentive for the doctor to administer vaccinations then oh, trust, it’s happening.”
I’m going to go right ahead and say that how things might seem to you is no indication of how things are. Perhaps you’d care to support with evidence your disparagement of health care providers?
“To understand some sense of Penn’s intelligence, good taste and wisdom, I refer you to a much more typical example of his recent thoughts.”
Dr. Jay, seriously – did you not look into P&T before agreeing to do the show?! You post an example of Penn talking about something else as a way of trying to discredit him, yet no one forced you to go on the show! If you thought so poorly of him, you shouldn’t have participated.
Nevertheless, the quote you claim was edited doesn’t sound quite right the way you claim it was said, and in it’s edited form sounds right in line with your views as aspoused here and elsewhere – so you’ll excuse us if we’re more than a little skeptical of your claim.
Jay, you’re only claiming to be edited, not misquoted. So please, give us the original quote in the context, in a form that makes sense. The form you promoted at ANB doesn’t rhyme.
I had watched P&T many times. Someone had to do it. Tim Rogan, their producer, promised this. I believed him. He lied.
Thanks again for accommodating our interview crew on Wednesday. As we discussed,we are in production on a “Vaccinations” episode of Showtime Network’s long-running documentary series, “Penn & Teller: Bullshit!”. PTBS takes on controversial subjects featuring people with strong convictions on all sides of the issues. As a mother of a child with autism that you believe is linked to his prescribed vaccination schedule, plus in your position as the national policy manager of TACA, I would guess that you would agree that vaccinations is a “hot button” subject for many, many people.
Our show appears on a pay cable network in a late night time slot. It appeals to Showtime’s core audience – well educated, middle and upper middle-class adults between the ages of 25 – 54. These are people who choose to pay for the network and who like to watch our show because it takes on meaty topics but presents them in an entertaining way. They want to know about the debate behind the subjects.
Certainly many of our viewers are parents who will have the same questions and concerns about vaccines and autism as other people in that age bracket. This will be the first time that many people at home will learn about TACA and its mission. Former interviewees and viewer mail tell us that our viewers are highly interested in knowing about the topics from all sides. Even when Penn & Teller are clearly on the other side of the argument in some of our episodes, we have heard that many viewers watch the show because they want to know about the opposite perspectives.
It’s our policy to let our interviewers make their cases in full statments, not in “frankenbites” that are created in the editing room. “Vaccinations” is a topic that lends itself to a very spirited debate. Unexpected issues, the gray areas of the subject and controversial perspectives are going to be raised in this episode. Both you and Dr. Gordon present a parent and an MD’s point-of-view that need to be part of this episode. Neither of you will be taken out of context and I am certain that both of you will hold your own in the show. Please don’t forget, the show is 30 minutes, but we will feature a lot of other voices during the episode as well.
Best regards,
Tim Rogan
Co-Executive Producer
Penn & Teller: Bullshit!
Dr. Gordon,
It seems that Orac has given you more benefit of the doubt than you deserve, given your previous statements. Maybe you should consider not doing taped interviews in the future. Actually your live ones don’t always turn out the best for your cause either, so take that into consideration as well.
I’m just curious as to what part of your linked video you think is dishonest or unethical. I personally would always choose butterscotch pudding over chocolate, but I see no reason to believe that Penn’s opinion on the matter is dishonest.
@Todd; “You’re the one making the claim, you provide the evidence.” !!!! You gotta be fucking kidding me. You got pwned at your own game, buddy. If someone like YOU can’t look up all those really good, really pertinent questions then there’s something more than a little wrong with that and I think you know it!! Where’s the evidence per your post(37) that thim still isn’t causing problems??????????!
Dr. Jay, you’re claiming that your interview was–shall we say?–creatively edited in order to make it sound as though you said something that was 180° from what you actually did say. However, as people here have pointed out, what you claim you said in your complaints on ANB don’t sound right. There is clearly no edit between your saying, “Children should not be vaccinated” and “This is very much at odds with the mainstream medical point of view, which says that there’s no connection between vaccines and autism. I think that that is a flat out lie.” The first sentence flows into the second seamlessly. It doesn’t make much sense if what you said was, as you claim, “I’m not saying that children should not be vaccinated.”
I’d like to believe you completely, but what I’m saying is that I’m not entirely buying your version of the story just yet for that reason, barring hearing the entire segment of the interview. It’s quite possible that you might have meant to say something like that but did not. Of course, if that were true, then I’d view it as a Freudian slip, because, quite frankly, given your association with Jenny McCarthy and your long history of being an apologist for the anti-vaccine movement, I have a hard time not viewing your denials that you are anti-vaccine with a huge amount of skepticism. Actions and your past history of statements speak louder than your rather weak denials now, I’m afraid.
@jen
Why do antivaxers always refuse to do their own work? If you come in making some claim, the onus is on you to back up your argument with citations. We cannot meaningfully discuss the issue unless we know what sources you’re using. You have failed to present any evidence that your claim has any basis in reality. It is not my job, nor anyone else here, to go looking for your sources. That would be silly, as it allows you to just say, “Well, I didn’t use that source.”
You made the claim. You provide your evidence for it. Then we can talk. Until you do so, no meaningful conversation can be had. So, show us the evidence that the push for flu vaccines nicely dovetailed with the removal from the rest of the recommended schedule. Show us the evidence that the amount of thimerosal in flu vaccines makes up for what was removed.
What Todd, you haven’t heard of the rampant “recreational” flu vaccine use?
If you don’t bother to look it up then I daresay, you are hardly in a position to to make the claims you do. There isn’t any monetary incentive for physicians to administer most vaccines, especially influenza. Recommendations don’t equal uptake, brainwave.
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/acip/coveragelevels.htm
@Mu
Must’ve missed that news story.
Seriously, though. Why is the typical antivax conversation something like this:
antivaxer: blah blah blah some claim that says vaccines is teh evilz but no supporting evidence given blah blah.
skeptic: Okay. What’s your evidence for that?
antivaxer: Ha! I totally pwned [editor’s note: are we 15? Grow up.] you! I don’t need to provide evidence ’cause I’m right. If you can’t prove me wrong, that means I’m right. Ha!
I can assure Harold Doherty, without having to do any investigation, that H1N1 shots for pregnant women last year, mercury containing or not, are not the cause of the rise in autism since 1990.
Dave, listen to how they obviously clipped off the first part of my sentence. I honestly don’t remember the exact quote but I know that the sense of it was and they reversed it. The sense was how I disagreed with the schedule, timing and so on. For instance, “My point of view is that during the first year of life . . . ”
” . . . children should not be vaccinated. This is very much at odds with the mainstream medical point of view, which says that there’s no connection between vaccines and autism. I think that that is a flat out lie.”
You could have figured that out. They clipped off the first part of the sentence. Obviously. Listen again.
Jay
By the way, I give vaccines everyday. I’ve mentioned that before. “Anti-vaccine?” Hardly.
Jay
@Jay Gordon
But this would also fit, and seems to jive with your comments elsewhere and in the past:
“I think that vaccines may cause autism. In my opinion…children should not be vaccinated. This is very much at odds with the mainstream medical point of view [etc.]”
We can play “Jay Gordon Mad-Libs” all day, if you like, but your protestations are somewhat disingenuous based on your past behavior. Until and unless P&T release the unedited footage, all we have are guesses.
And it sounds as though you have to be begged to do so by parents. Evidence-based? Hardly.
And this is any better how? You are obviously back-peddling from your comment on ANB to here in light of your comments on your own website.
@Vicki
[“We didn’t have flu shots and we survived” is confirmation bias.]
He’s countering the common fearmongering technique perpetuated to sale shots. The one that implies “we all could get it and die”. The one that commonly invokes something about 1918.
But you make a good point. Flu shot’s advocates love to use confirmation bias. “I got the flu shot and didn’t get the flu.” Therefore it was the flu shot that protected me.
[ Maybe flu shots don’t make a significant difference in childhood mortality rates in northern Canada:]
They don’t! Nor do they in the U.S.
[but to test that you would need to compare total mortality of vaccinated and unvaccinated populations.]
Um, are you sure that’s all you do? Wouldn’t you want to test for the virus strain that the vaccine is SUPPOSED to prevent? How about the healthy user effect misleading you?
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=af55d5db-73da-49d8-96e9-5dd6fc75a660
[ (And then control for a wide range of confounding effects. This would not be simple.)]
So I take it this is not how you made your decision to vaccinate or not. Because it would be simple to just read the study. But the hypothetical study you refer to would not be simple and would be rendered useless for pro-vaccine agenda.
[Also, part of why we vaccinate children is to protect adults.]
This is called moving the goalposts in SBMer vernacular. I call it vaccine judo!
[The kid with a flu shot is a kid who doesn’t infect her 80-year-old grandfather.]
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/o/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD004879/frame.html
I wouldn’t be so sure about your evidence free hypothesis.
Dr Jay,
You give aid and comfort to the enemy. As such, you receive scorn equal to that the enemy receives. We have many quotes from you about disagreeing with the cdc schedule yet no evidence to support that position.
Lending your medical degree to unsupported allegations of harm is bad and opens you to criticism in proportion to the damage your position affords you. If P&T misquoted you, you can and should deal with that but your message has continually sided with the forcs of ignorance and evil.
Jay says that while he doesn’t remember what he said on Penn & Teller, his “sense” of things is that they either “clipped off” or “reversed” a key part of it, as in (“My point of view is that during the first year of life . . . “)” . . . children should not be vaccinated.”
Jay, how does your denial fit in with what you’re saying right now on your website?:
“”The best option at the present time might be to stop all vaccines if you understand and agree with the statistical risks involved with non-vaccination.”
I don’t see any qualifier there about “the first year of life”.
Does an evil genie creep onto your website and post all the idiotic antivax claptrap? Or is it Penn & Teller hacking the site to make you look ridiculous?
Aid and comfort? Who the hell do you think taught Jenny McCarthy everything she babbles? He’s not just a collaborator.
@Dangerous Bacon #59:
“Does an evil genie creep onto your website and post all the idiotic antivax claptrap? Or is it Penn & Teller hacking the site to make you look ridiculous?”
Now we all know why Teller doesn’t speak during shows. He’s too busy hacking websites to make them look ridiculous! How on earth did you ever figure out his nefarious plan?
(I’m hoping jen crawls back under her bridge if I ignore her).
Sure, Dr. Jay, we will believe you once you have edited your web site to remove the statements quoted above, especially the one about not vaccinating babies under a year old. Also, it would help if you fixed you vaccine pages to get the name of the diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis correct. You might find reading the CDC Pink Book of vaccines helpful (especially in regards to the risks of getting tetanus).
Another thing you should do to not be considered “anti-vaccine” is add to your website a page denouncing all of those folks who try to scam the parents of disabled children. That would include every one of the advertisers on Jenny McCarthy’s “Let’s Go Shopping” page at Generation Rescue, Doctor’s Data, Boyd Haley, Thoughtful House, Jeff Bradstreet, the Geiers, and on and on. If you were really concerned about the costs endured by parents of disabled children, you could steer them away from quacks and quackery.
Slightly OT, but news of a measles outbreak in Malawi
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/africa/4027876/Measles-claims-197-in-Malawi
Hey, news for Sid and Little Augie…of course, what Aunt Benjy posted isn’t inportant to them because they are probably only poor black children. But no matter how you twist the news, guys, 197 people, mostly children, are dead FROM THE MEASLES. Not war, not diet, not their parents killing them because they are autistic. MEASLES, a vaccine-preventable disease, killed them.
Harold, I have been looking at this subject recently, and have some useful information to hand. If small doses of mercury during pregnancy caused autism, we would expect to see higher rates in populations that are exposed to more mercury; fish-eating populations or those living near coal-burning power stations for example. We don’t. Thanks to the organic mercury poisoning outbreaks at Minamata, Japan in the 1950s and in Iraq in the early 1970s and studies on fish-eating populations such as those in the Faroes and the Seychelles we know quite a bit about the effects of in utero mercury exposure. The offspring of pregnant women exposed to more than approximately 400-600 micrograms of methylmercury each and every week show signs of neurological damage, but not typical signs of autism. Delayed speech and walking, and mental retardation were the key effects, as you can see in this study. As the largest dose of ethylmercury in a single vaccine is 25 micrograms, it seems very unlikely indeed that any pregnant woman has ever been given enough mercury in vaccines to damage her baby during her pregnancy.
Experiments with mice, often quoted by Dr. Russell Blaylock as evidence that mercury in vaccines cause autism, showed that glutamate uptake is inhibited by 5 micromolar concentrations of methylmercury. This is equivalent to 1000 micrograms per liter (atomic weight of mercury = 200.6 grams, so 1 micromole mercury = 0.0002 grams = 0.2 milligrams, so 5 micromoles = 5 x 0.2 = 1 milligram mercury = 1000 micrograms), which is 175 times higher than the highest blood concentrations seen in infants after vaccination with thimerosal-containing vaccines. It is reasonable to assume that similar levels would apply in pregnant women, levels far too low to cause any damage.
The study I just cited found transient maximal mean blood mercury concentrations of 5.7 ng/ml the day after vaccination, dropping to baseline levels after 30 days. Other studies have found no health effects from blood mercury levels maintained at 44 ng/ml (note that ng/ml is equivalent to μg/l) for months or years.
It is also worth noting that a considerably lower proportion of ethylmercury (0.22%) from IM-injected thimerosal is deposited in the brain of mice than the proportion of orally ingested methylmercury (1.5%). This suggests that ethylmercury from IM-injected thimerosal is considerably less toxic than the orally ingested methylmercury that most toxicological data are based on.
I really don’t think the science supports any of the theories that autism is caused by mercury, whether in vaccines or from any other source.
@MI Dawn
There, fixed that for you. Parents who kill their autistic kids have something wrong upstairs. Their child’s autism is just an excuse to commit a horrible crime.
“Dr. Jay” claims about his interview on Penn and Teller’s Bullshit episode:
Seriously, “Dr. Jay”? Are you truly claiming that – despite all of your statements on ‘blogs, in public addresses and on your website – that you don’t believe vaccines cause autism and that you do encourage parents to give their kids vaccinations?
Or is this the “alternative universe Dr. Jay” that we’re hearing from – the “Dr. Jay” who attends to the mountains of research data showing no link (causal or otherwise) between vaccinations and autism and lets that data trump his “decades of clinical experience”?
What about the part of the interview where “Dr. Jay” says that he’s seen children become autistic right in his office, after receiving a vaccination? Was that edited to change the meaning? If not, it’s another classic bit of “Dr. Jay Bullshit” to add to the archives.
Maybe “Dr. Jay” should consider hosting his own cable television show.
If “Dr. Jay” would like to stop being humiliated, the best first step might be to shut his mouth.
Prometheus
@ 40 Dr. Gordon,
You wanted to convey an impression of a magical, non-existent vaccine-autism link.
Did you cite well done research of some vaccine-autism link?
Since this does not exist, I am going to guess that they did not edit out overwhelming scientific evidence supporting your opinion.
Dr. Gordon and research do not often appear in the same sentence. You could change that, but not if you wish to maintain your vaccines are evil position.
Did you cite anecdotes hand picked to support your biases?
Dr. Gordon, Imaginary Future Winner of the Nobel Prize in Anecdotal Medicine!
You do not seem understand that nobody is obligated to assist your attempts to mislead the public.
You are outraged that they chose to provide information that is scientifically valid, rather than anecdote that you feel supports your misconceptions.
You still do not understand science.
You still do not understand why anecdotes are not science.
Dr. Gordon, you still blame others for your lack of understanding.
.
[Not war, not diet, not their parents killing them because they are autistic. MEASLES, a vaccine-preventable disease, killed them.]
What’s the vaccine efficacy in a starving immune compromised child? Do you know?
Did you know that about 115,500 Americans died in the same time period from medical MISTAKES! Meaning they shouldn’t have died. The medical system killed them! And they unknowingly went along with it.
‘Measles is an infectious disease characterised by a high temperature and red spots all over the body.’
And generally that’s all it is. When you combine ANY virus or bacteria with disease fostering environment vaccine or no vaccine bad things are going to happen.
Dr. Gordon, you are a dick nozzle. Your dissembling really comes down to distinction without much difference: even if you were misrepresented here, the purported misrepresentation is far more in-line with your previously espoused beliefs than your weasely, after the fact correction.
Deny, deny, deny. You remain a dick nozzle.
@Todd W: you are perfectly correct. The parents ARE mentally unhinged to kill a child.
Thank you for the correction to my statement.
Maybe he should write a nasty letter to himself, making the accusation that he misquoted himself. Can’t you see the conspiracy?!??!!11!!HG!!!
.
I will be sad if there actually was editing of Jay’s statements in order to change the meaning. I would not feel terribly bad for him as I believe he really is anti-vax despite his protestations but I would feel bad that it allows the anti-vax crowd to derail the discussion. It lets Dr. Jay focus on this rather than discuss the other comments he has made that are equally silly and much harder to explain away as artifacts of editing, such as his comment about children becoming autistic in his office. You have to be pretty damn scrupulous otherwise they are going to latch onto any little error or misstep and ignore everything else.
Harold L Doherty wrote: “I live in Canada and when I grew up children did not receive flu vaccines every year, or at all, despite flu outbreaks every winter. I expected to, and usually did, get the flu at least once a year. As kids we almost welcomed it as an excuse for a few days off school.”
What fun! Really, though, it’s not all about you, no matter how much you might have looked forward to your yearly break from your studies.
You might wonder whether, while you happily survived your yearly bouts with influenza, you might have spread the disease directly or indirectly to someone who had a less benign outcome. For example, you might consider a recent Canadian study that concludes: “Immunizing children and adolescents with inactivated influenza vaccine significantly protected unimmunized residents of rural communities against influenza.” [JAMA. 2010 Mar 10;303(10):943-50] Similarly, a nationwide Japanese study concluded that 1 life was saved for every 420 children immunized against influenza in that country. [N Engl J Med. 2001 Mar 22;344(12):889-96.] Vaccination doesn’t just protect you, Harold, it also protects other, weaker people who might die if they contract the disease.
Harold, like most of the anti-vaccine crowd, lives in a bubble.
Yes, it’s a bit like saying “I didn’t die of influenza, and I never met someone who died of influenza, therefore nobody died of influenza.” Forgetting, of course, that you are, by definition, not going to meet anybody who has died of influenza.
I also have to wonder whether or not those yearly infections were really influenza. It’s not common to get influenza every year, and there are a hell of a lot of other viral infections which often get attributed to influenza with absolutely no evidence that influenza itself is to blame. Most of the colds that go around are *not* influenza, and I think a lot of the blase attitude people have towards influenza is a result of mistaken identity.
The irony of this is that well before 1945 — in 1933, in fact — a book was written by an unhinged gent named Samuel Walter Cort entitled Cancer: Is the Dog the Cause? (Yes, the dude hated and feared dogs.)
Hey, lay off Carl. He learned it on the internet. It’s not conspiracy crap – it’s KNOWLEDGE!!!!!
Too bad Carl doesn’t trust doctors. Seems like he might need to start taking Risperdal (or the like).
As I suspected, it was a great episode. Got the science right and allowed the anti-vax loons plenty of space to look like the fools that they are.
I just want one person who is against vaccines to explain this to me. I am on the spectrum — diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome. I was at 30 years old. I’m no different than I was as a kid — but when I was in elementary school, I was in therapy to try to “get over my shyness”– but, of course, the recent rise in autism rates have nothing to do with expanded diagnosis, right?
So, if you assume that vaccines did cause autism, shouldn’t I be worse off than I was as a kid? I get flu shots every year — and got two last year, including the H1N1. At this rate, I should probably be non-communicative, shouldn’t I?
I’m not anti-vaccine at all. I have a 7 year-old autistic son and another son on the way and I fully plan of getting my child vaccinated. However, what this episode avoided was the fact other developed countries, like France, omit certain vaccines and spread out others and have lower autism rates and no increase in the diseases that are supposed to be prevented by the omitted vaccines. This is a serious question, can anyone respond to that?
@Father of Autistic Child
You should also note that different regions have different incidences of disease. What might be an important consideration for one region may not be high on the priority list for another (e.g., the U.S. does not give BCG vaccine for tuberculosis, while many Asian countries do – also note that France gives BCG, as well). There may be other factors, as well, that different regions take into consideration.
As to your other claims regarding rates of autism and vaccine preventable diseases in France, I don’t know off-hand. Do you have some sources that indicate that such is the case?
“I’m not anti-vaccine at all. I have a 7 year-old autistic son and another son on the way and I fully plan of getting my child vaccinated. However, what this episode avoided was the fact other developed countries, like France, omit certain vaccines and spread out others and have lower autism rates and no increase in the diseases that are supposed to be prevented by the omitted vaccines. This is a serious question, can anyone respond to that?”
IIRC, and it’s been a while since I took Abnormal Psych, but psychiatric and psychological disorders are diagnosed differently in different countries, based on the recommendations of that countries’ professional associations and medical groups. AFAIK, the United States has a very loose criteria for the diagnosis of ASD, and has multiple disorders as part of the spectrum, with even the arguement to add things like ADD/ADHD to it.
Also, what you’re claiming flies in the face of multiple studies from the US and EU on the safety of vaccines and the disproval of any link between vaccination causing autism. The evidence simply isn’t there, and claiming vaccination causes it has the same amount of logic as claiming AirFrance’s exhaust is causing autism to occur.
@Father of Autistic Child —
Not sure that’s entirely accurate. See http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=4334
I do not, but I saw it referenced on Larry King. I am here trying to learn. I simply thought this issue was a blatant omission from the show (which I know isn’t a scientific show). I also thought they could have found saner representatives for the one side. Also, why in the world are pharmaceutical companies allowed to sponsor and advertise in CDC publications?
@Chance
Regardless of a proven link, I think there is enough out there to at least look and see if all of our recommended vaccines are appropriate as scheduled, or appropriate at all.
@ANM
Your link appears to back up the statement that France gives fewer vaccines than the US.
@82
“I do not, but I saw it referenced on Larry King. I am here trying to learn. I simply thought this issue was a blatant omission from the show (which I know isn’t a scientific show). I also thought they could have found saner representatives for the one side. Also, why in the world are pharmaceutical companies allowed to sponsor and advertise in CDC publications?”
The thing about it is, any question that antivaccination groups legitimately brought up in the 1990s had been resolved through studies that didn’t support their stances, and were immediately discarded by these groups because of it. The reason these people were chosen was probiby A)Sheer entertainment value – P&T IS a TV Show, after all, and B)This is really what people on this side believe.
In addition: I’d love to know what publications you’re talking about. I regularly read the MMWR, and I have yet to see a pharmaceutical ad on it. Considering the CDC is funded directly through a Congressionally submitted budget, and a part of the Department of Health and Human Services, and is backed by the NIH as well, I hardly see how you can -infer- that somehow Big Pharma runs the CDC. While the publications will recommend drugs for diseases, they are usually generic unless they are still under patent – effecacy studies aren’t advertisements.
@A.N.M.
Thanks for providing that link to SBM.
@Father of Autistic Child
Was it, perhaps, the show with Jenny McCarth and Jim Carrey? Personally, I would not get my science or medicine information from them (or from any talk show, really). You should peruse the medical literature. PubMed would be a good place to look.
As a good educational start, I would recommend antiantivax.flurf.net (linked through my name) as an overview of some vaccine/anti-vaccine issues. There are a lot of links there for further reading. Another good resource is Science-Based Medicine blog’s Topic-Based Reference on Vaccines and Autism. Again, lots of links. Orac also has a whole lot o’ posts covering the issue, with a bit more snark than either of the above references.
As far as information on other countries, other than looking at studies conducted overseas, I’m not too familiar with many sites. In Australia, there’s the Skeptic’s Book of Pooh Pooh, run by Dr. Rachel Dunlop. She should have plenty of info on the vaccine issues there, with some links to other sites. Anyone else have suggestions?
@Father of Autistic Child
I was referring to autism rates. That and, if you read the SBM article I linked to, the actual total number of vaccines given in France versus the US are not materially different; the rate isn’t sure at all, given differences in reporting.
Though I’m beginning to suspect that you’re a concern troll.
It is, but in fairness, we all know Dr. Jay is not sincere when he claims he’s not saying children should not be vaccinated. That is exactly what he’s saying.
Thanks, A.N.M., that’s a decent link. In particular, I was interested in the table comparing which vaccines are given where. I love the fact that, the biggest difference between the US and France, for example, is that the US gives the Hep A and rotovirus vaccines and France doesn’t. However, according to the counting methodology, France gives 35 shots, but the US only gives 36? Something is in the combinations, there, I guess.
Most importantly, is the hep A and rotovirus vaccines really a difference? Funny, we never hear anything that implicates them in the autism diagnosis increase. That’s because they are really johnny-come-latelys in the vaccine schedule, and autism has never been associated with their use. However, they are still thrown under the bus, so to speak, because they are vaccines, and all vaccines are bad, right?
@ ANM & Todd,
Thank you for the great links (I mean that). Also, I think people who want to look into vaccination reform are wrongly lumped with ant-vaccine groups.
@Father of autistic child: (Another father of autistic child here) What is the evidence that the prevalence of autism is lower in France? Please do not cite old studies based on old methodology, case-finding methods and criteria. The methodology needs to be comparable for us to be able to compare the figures.
“However, according to the counting methodology, France gives 35 shots, but the US only gives 36? Something is in the combinations, there, I guess.”
SOmeone correct me if I’m wrong, but that may be due to the spreading out of vaccines schedules.
@ANM
I assure you I’m no troll. Why so defensive?
Father of an Autistic Child states:
What about England, which also has a different vaccination schedule than the US yet has similar autism prevalence? The UK also saw a rise in autism prevalence at about the same time as in the US, yet their vaccination schedule resembles that of France more than the US.
For that matter, what about Canada, which also has a different vaccination schedule yet has seen the same rapid rise in autism prevalence as its neighbour to the south?
And how about Japan? Denmark? Need I go on?
A bigger question – and one asked in scientific circles – is whether there is a difference in autism prevalence between various developed (and developing) nations. There have been a great number of changes in the autism diagnostic criteria in the US over the past several years, not to mention the fact that these criteria are not rigorously applied in many cases (e.g. the classification of children as “autistic” under the IDEA in the US). The same issues also affect the autism prevalence reported by other countries.
You cannot take the autism prevalence – even as reported by national public health organisations – as being comparable between countries. Comparing autism prevalence in France to that in the US – unless identical criteria are used (hint: they are not identical) – is comparing apples and orangutans.
It is much more likely – looking at the data – that any differences between countries in autism prevalence are due primarily to making the diagnosis of autism, rather than any difference in prevalence.
As for the contribution of vaccines, here is what we know:
[1] Some countries with very different vaccination schedules (and uptake rates) have similar autism prevalence.
[2] Some countries with similar (or identical) vaccination schedules and uptake rates have very different autism prevalence.
As a scientist, my conclusion from those data is that vaccination plays, at most, a minor role in autism prevalence. You draw your own conclusions.
Prometheus
@Father of Autistic Child
That sometimes happens. More often than not, though, individuals calling for vaccination reform are often basing their concerns on misinformation or misunderstandings of the science. When shown where the error occurs, if they persist in their original erroneous claims, then they are more than likely anti-vaccine.
What also tends to get people lumped into the “anti-vaccine” group is if they only cite vague, scary sounding things, like “Vaccines contain toxins”, without actually specifying what toxins or that the supposed toxic ingredient really is toxic in the amounts and route of administration for a vaccine.
Dr Jay. You’ve sold out in terms of science-based medicine in order to enjoy the adulation of your celebrity pals. Then you turn up here wanting the approval of Orac and his contributors. Fact is: You can’t have your cake and eat it. Either you front up to Jenny et al and admit you had stars in your eyes and you’ve now seen the light and gone back to recommending vaccination (a simple tool that has saved countless lives) or you stop bleating here and looking for approval – cause you’re not going to get it!
I would guess it depends. I mean, when “people who want to look into vaccination reform” parrot information they heard from Jenny McCarthy and other anti-vaxxaloons, it’s hard to treat them as anything but the same.
There are certainly serious people in the world who “want to look into vaccination reform,” but they aren’t the ones squawking about nonsense on Oprah or The Doctors or shilling alternative books. They are the epidemiologists and immunologists who spend their lives studying the science of vaccination and disease, and work to improve the methods we have to fight them. They are learning by doing the studies, not by reading the internet. And they are reporting what they learned through peer-reviewed scientific literature.
And they are taken seriously.
A link for jen
If you’re at all attuned to ambient sound, it is clear that Dr Jay said something just before “Children should not be vaccinated,” and that the clip starts in mid sentence. My ears perked up at that when I watched the show, even though I wasn’t giving it 100% attention.
I cannot, however, think of any preamble to that phrase which makes the two sentences following — “This is very much at odds with the mainstream medical point of view, which says that there’s no connection between vaccines and autism. I think that that is a flat out lie.” — any less egregious, or that he thinks that contraindications to vaccination are rare.
It’s quite obvious that part of the sentence was edited out, but it’s also obvious that Dr Jay is convinced that there is a connection between vaccines and autism, despite all the evidence to the contrary. It’s also obvious to anyone who’s been following his statements in the past that he may not be a Carl Buzz, but the difference is only in degree, not kind.
I urge P&T to release the full tape. Comedy gold, or just evidence of Gordonian weaseltude? Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen, place your bets.
Just an aside for the other Canadians on this site…..I grew up here and never had the flu, I think people are using the term to refer to a bad cold which we all got in the winter (due to being crowded together indoors of course and not the temperature). Further, my H1N1 vaccine was given to me by a nurse, how did the doctor make money on that?????
@Jay
When you wallow in “bullshit” you come out smelling like the same. In other words when you wallow in the steaming pile of nonsense that the anti-vaccine crowd regurgitate you are no better than they are. In fact you are worse than they are because as a trained doctor you should know better!
Don’t worry about your statements being taken out of context. I’m sure that the entire(unedited)clip will turn up somewhere on the internet fairly soon. They usually do.
I have taken the liberty of Tweeting Penn Jillette and I have posted his response here http://historyanarchy.blogspot.com/2010/08/penn-jillette-denies-framing-dr-jay.html
@10:
I have noted “anti-vaxxers” relying on the gambit that vaccines from before the removal of thimerosal could still be in circulation. That vaccines expire is only one of the flaws in their argument. The other glaring flaw is that, within the US, vaccine distributors can return unused units for a full refund. I would add that, if people were dumping expired vaccines on the market, they would not be doing it in the US. They would be doing it in “third world” markets, which wealthy white Euro-American anti-vaccine activists pay no attention to.
This whole bizarre incident just proves that Dr. Jay is a base attention whore. He just cannot resist media attention, regardless of those interviewing him. He flew right into the sticky fly trap.
I mean, the guy went on a show full-well knowing the hosts were famous skeptical magicians with a taste for the obscene. When confronted with the fact that the interview made him appear as if he was incompetent quack, he responds with a post claiming Penn is a sexual deviant. That is the best you can do, Jay? Claim a Las Vegas performer isn’t in line with mid-america bible morality?
Either Jay is a complete, incompetent moron or just a narcissist with a major fame obsession.
#60
Not only that, but going by Jay’s quote above, he obviously still has his hand jammed firmly up the back of her shirt.
Also, as to Jay’s attempts at presenting as a vaccine cautionary on selected blogs being contradicted by his anti-vax stance on his own site…does he even comprehend the nature of the internets?
Jay, presenting contradicting stances on two different blogs is not akin to proclaiming such in person in, say, two different countries and assuming no one will ever compare the two. Isn’t it obvious to you by now that this sort of hedging your popularity bets is really blatant, or at least seriously naive.
Nick (#102) opines:
My assessment is the latter of the two choices. After all, why was “Dr. Jay” the only “alternative” (at least in the sense of believing that vaccines cause autism) practitioner interviewed? Probably because all the others that P&T’s producer contacted realised that they couldn’t defend their position to a skeptical interviewer.
However, let’s not limit the choices artificially. Nick’s two options are not mutually exclusive – why can’t “Dr. Jay” be both an incompetent moron and a narcissist? After all, narcissists are infamous for not recognising their own limitations and shortcomings. It does seem to fit the available data.
Prometheus
Orac, I would’ve thought Penn’s use of the F-word was completely libertarian, not liberal =]
Re: augustine’s use of the ‘Deadly Doctor Gambit’:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAyMYdQcwV4
As to the trace amounts of mercury in vaccines today. In her study, Laura Hewitson found that the HepB vaccine she used had 10 parts per billion mercury by weight.
From “The Mercury Concentration in Breast Milk Resulting
from Amalgam Fillings and Dietary Habits” breast milk can have 0.25 to 5 ppb mercury (and in some exceptional cases, even as much as 400ppb).
The volume of breast milk is much higher than that of a vaccine. Much, much higher. This results in a much larger dose of mercury.
So, does the small amount of mercury in the trace amounts found in the vaccine cause a neurodevelopmental delay? Seems rather unlikely given the background exposure to mercury.
Orac – I think you are in a position now to call Gordon out on the carpet. Does he stand by his position that his comments in the show were “180 degrees” away from what he actually said? If he does, and he is ultimately shown to be exposed, then you have by all rights the ability and reason to 1) lay down some more RI on his ass, and 2) ban him from ever showing his lying face here again.
Personally, I am getting tired of his pretending that he is not an evil, vile worm. Don’t fall for his “let’s be respectful” crap. It’s very clear that the prima facie indications are that his comments in the show were not misrepresented one iota. As noted, the context makes it tough to understand any else. Moreover, they are perfectly consistent with comments he currently has on his personal website. Lastly, despite his denials, History Punk has Penn Jillete’s equally vehement defense of their use of his comment.
If he is going to play Pete Rose and continue to deny in the face of the very strong evidence against him, that is his right. However, like Pete Rose, he has to face the consequences of his lies.
I have no interest in hearing anything he has to say any more. If you find out he is blatently lying to you, then I don’t think you should either.
Father of an Autistic Child: Vaccinations schedules vary, not only from country to country, but also within countries. In Australia (where I live) children of Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander descent are sometimes put on an alternate vaccination schedule. See http://www.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/atsi2
In Australia, children recieve around 17 vaccinations in their first year. (See http://www.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips2 ) Keep in mind that rotavirus is an oral vaccine. Also keep in mind that while Hep B is listed 5 times, a child only gets 3 doses; it’s just that there is some flexibility with when it is given. I’m also pretty sure (but relying on my memory here) that polio is now combined with another one. So, take out the 3 rotavirus vaccinations since they are oral; take out the polio since it’s part of a combination; and that’s 11 shots in the first 12 months. But autism rates in Australia are not significantly lower than they are in the US. So . . . How can it be vaccines?
I was born in 1954. I was assessed with Aspergers Syndrome in 2009. It took 55 years for people to catch on to just how different I am.
It isn’t just a matter of more children being diagnosed with Autism, it’s also a matter of more adults being diagnosed. Adults who, as in my case, often grew up before the current vaccination scheme.
The anti-vax crowd often exhibit a profound ignorance of how Autism arises, and of the physical signs of the disorder. Of the differences in brain structure exhibited by Autistic persons. Differences that predate reception of vaccines or other putative causative factors. I could be wrong, but it is my feeling that many of the differences in brain structure exhibited by autistic persons arise during fetal government, and that Autism is signified by the retention of certain traits most children grow out of. That Autism is caused by the failure of a brain to mature in certain ways.
Could be wrong, but considering how Autistic brains differ from normal brains there might be something to this.
Agashem: I doubt nurses are paid cash incentives to vaccinate but never say never. Doctors in Australia are given money when there is a vaccination rate greater than 80% and I’m sure there are cash incentives for American doctors (peds) as well. Certain vaccine (pharma) consultants made lots of money from the H1N1 vaccine
http://www.naturalnews.com/028936_WHO_vaccines.html
I would think that per Todd’s excellent queries from post # 37 that the manufacturers of flu vaccine (say Sanofi-Pasteur or GSK to name some) would want to do studies on exactly those kinds of questions in order to answer peoples’ concerns.
Jen claims:
Our paediatrician wants to know who he should contact for his “cash incentive” – he was completely unaware of the program. Who pays this incentive and how do they know if the paediatrician is “making quota”?
Seriously, I’d like to know so that I can help out our hard-working and under-compensated paediatrician.
On the other hand, maybe Jen is simply making it up as she goes.
Prometheus
I have to say, I’ve rarely seen a more visually effective way of portraying the benefits of vaccination than was shown in the opening scene of the episode
———————
So I guess according to the “visually effective way of portraying the benefits of vaccination” 1/2 to 1/3 of each years birth cohort would, without the miracle of vaccination, be wiped off the face of the earth due to vaccine preventable diseases.
No Sid, since the fatality rate of vaccine preventable diseases is not 100%.
There is some truth to what jen says. First, a nurse is often giving the shot under the medical control of a physician who may receive the (paltry) compensation for giving the vaccine. Though this is then levied against the cost of purchasing, storing, and administrating the vaccine. As we’ve been over ad nauseum, studies show that clinics generally break even on vaccine administration if they are lucky.
Second, there are insurance companies that incentivize meeting certain health benchmarks, including vaccination. One insurance group I know of has a program that rewards physician groups for meeting a combination of generic prescrbing benchmarks, NIH asthma guideline adherence, and vaccination rate maintenance.
I think it’s an interesting pro-vaccine argument, personally. Insurance companies may not always be trustworthy in everything, but they can always be trusted to look out for their bottom line.
So, given that care for autistic children is so expensive, why would an insurance company want to increase an intervention that could possibly increase autism?
Actually, I think jen is right that medical practices in Australia do recieve a bonus payment for reaching a vaccination quotas for certain (not all) vaccinations. I know that local governments (shires) do because the Maternal and Child Health Nurse who works with me told us that they’d recieved a bonus for reaching in excess of 95% uptake of the varicella vaccine; and I believe she said that medical practices (not individual doctors) do too. I’m also pretty sure she said it’s a trifling amount, a couple of hundred dollars. This is because there tends to be a fairly small up-take of the varicella vaccine because parents think chicken pox is really no big deal. (Try telling that to my FIL who has been laid low by shingles for the last 3 months.)
Parents in Australia recieve a monetary payment for vaccinating their kids; again it’s a trifling amount, I think we got $200; and thanks to the folks at AVN parents who don’t vaccinate their children also get it. (So why do they call it a ‘vaccination allowance’?)
Collecting this information isn’t as difficult as you’d think. In Australia vaccination details for children are stored in a central database. Every time a child is vaccinated the nurse (or doctor, but it’s almost always the nurse) records the pertinent information – vaccine batch #, where it was administered, etc. etc. – and sends this in (I think electronically). When your child is 18 months and again when your child is 5 you recieve a copy of their vaccination record, which has dates, vaccinations recieved, I think even batch #s but I’d have to look at my childrens’ records to make sure.
With her daughter, when she was about 20 months old, we recieved a letter from the Commonwealth government saying that she was now over-due for her varicella vaccine, which is supposed to be given at 18 months. Our daughter had had her vaccine at 19 months (we were overseas when she turned 18 months) so I went to the nurse who had administered the vaccine and showed her the letter, and she said the paperwork must’ve been lost in the shuffle, pulled up a copy of it from her computer, and sent it off again.
So I can definitely confirm that the records are stored centrally at a federal level, and I can definitely confirm that there are financial incentives to parents (kindasorta) and to local governments for reaching certain quotas for certain vaccinations; and I can definitely confirm that all recommended vaccines are free. I can say “I believe” it is the case that medical practices get a bonus; I can say “I believe” it is the case that the amount is quite small; and I can say “I believe” it is the case that it is only for certain specified vaccines that have traditionally had a low rate of up-take in the community.
Considering that there is a $5000 baby bonus and quite generous family benefit payments in Australia, and considering that anti-vax parents still get the vaccination quota, it’s a bit rich for jen or anyone else to read too much into a local government or health service or parents getting $200 to vaccinate their kids.
Orac,
Thank you so much for posting the video. Penn and Teller are Great. Orac is great. Penn and Teller are Orac’s best friends. Now if we could just get more people to see this video… like damn near everybody who lives within 5 miles of me.
Keep up the good fight.
@ Dr. Jay (#45) Two questions:
One: why did you not post the letter YOU received from the show’s producers, rather than the one that Rebecca “Becky” Estepp of Talk About Curing Autism received?
Two: how did you get a copy of her letter?
@Pablo
“Vehement Defense”? That’s hardly how I would describe
I’d still love to see the un-edited footage. I have a strong feeling that Dr Jay does not have a very accurate recollection of his words.
#119 maydijo
My father, a WWII veteran with a lifelong dedicated work ethic, had shingles for the last 12 or so years of his life. (this was after he had retired thank FSM or I fear it would have sent him completely round the bend) He said it was the worst, most painful thing he had ever experienced and he was constantly prescribed the strongest pain killers.
This was someone who I don’t ever remember complaining of pain, let alone taking any sort of medication for it. Shingles made the last years of his life a living hell and he especially hated to be in such pain when his grandkids were around. It really hurt to pretty much have to stand by helplessly and witness that.
@Jay Gordon:
Wait, I thought that you only gave vaccines “reluctantly”. And there was that report of parents who had to argue you into giving their child vaccines.
Also, a question you still haven’t answered: how do you go about giving the HiB vaccine “judiciously”? Do you use only the contraindications that come with the vaccine? Have you developed your own contraindications to supplement the ones that are standard for the vaccine? Or have you developed indications on when to give the vaccine?
hey dr jay, were you also “misrepresented” in the death of eliza jane scovill? when will you take responsibility for yourself?
Give Dr. Jay a break on Eliza Jane Scovill, he did not know she had HIV. According to Orac he has apparently removed the HIV/AIDS stuff from his website:
Hence, the suggestion that remove all of the dubious vaccine stuff from his site. I also think if he wants to respect and help parents of disabled children he needs to warn them away from hucksters like the Geiers, Thoughtful House, DAN! doctors, chelation, etc, etc.
OK..back to Jay’s attempts at verbal gymnastics..
Note that Jay doesn’t say he thinks the mainstream medical point of view is mistaken or even that they are simply wrong?
No,in his opinion the mainsteam medical point of view is a “flat out lie”. Soooooo..in Jay’s mind all of mainstream medicine, regardless of race, religion or political leaning, are engaging in a huge conspirational pre-meditated deception.
Where is his supporting evidence for this accusation? And he’s a registered professional? Seriously?
Oh wait..he probably really really said: “I don’t think that that is a flat out lie”
Woah…*ducks*…black helicopter just missed me by *this* much…
*makes a beeline for the tinfoil while wondering what brand Dr. Jay uses*
@ I would like to see the studies on which you rely to show that trace amounts of thimerosal in vaccines given to pregnant women can not cause developmental issues for the fetus
Ok, we have a problem here with “burden of truth”. Can you show me studies that show that .. ooh, I dunno – clipping your toenails regularly – cannot cause developmental issues for the fetus? Can you quote studies showing that lentils cannot cause limping?
If you like, I’m sure there are at least a couple of studies that show that measles and pertussis cause infant death. Would you give any evidential weight to them?
Somewhat on topic:
California is in the midst of its worst outbreak of whooping cough in a half-century.
Oh, sweet Cthulhu! Take a look at the comments section of the NPR article:
@129 – Ahhh, I just love the “If your baby gets sick and dies it’s because you weren’t breastfeeding” shtick. The implication being of course that you deserve it.
Mother’s immunity is not fool-proof. I say that as a baby who had the chicken pox when I was very close to newborn, after my mother’s doctor assured her – guaranteed her – that there was no way I’d possibly catch it off my older sisters because I was still protected by her immunity. Yeah. He was wrong.
The way I see it, anybody who’s anti-flu vaccine obviously has never had a seriously bad influenza.
Why in hell would you want to take the risk of going through that again? Are you on some kind of masochist with a martyr complex, or something? Sheesh.
I got H1N1 before the vaccine was available here in Ontario. The first 30 hours or so, I had a bad case of what I refer to as the “total-body migraine.” I ached all over and was burning with fever. Even my soft mattress felt like it was full of rocks, and I swear my hair and my eyelashes hurt. The second 30 hours or so, I spent vomiting up seemingly every meal I’d eaten since childhood. Within about six hours of the vomiting stopping, I was racked with coughing and I wound up having to go to the emergency room because of insanely bad bronchitis. I wound up coughing and using a salbutamol inhaler for three weeks or so. You’d have to be objectively pro-misery to think people ought to go through that crap just because you think needles are icky or something.
Also, even if I’d had to pay for that freaking vaccine myself (which I wouldn’t have because the Beneficent State pays for it for me), it would have been way cheaper than the cost of the ER visit, ten lost days of work (both in terms of productivity loss and lost wages at twenty-six bucks an hour), and two ampoules of salbutamol, not to mention two large bottles of cough medicine, a dozen cans of Campbell’s chicken noodle soup, half a bottle of Tylenol, and a box of Gravol.
I feel about the same way about any of the other vaccines that a lot of people consider “optional.” I had chicken pox and pertussis when I was a kid; you’d have to be crazy and/or some kind of a bad parent to want your kid to go through that kind of agony when there’s an easy, cheap, and safe alternative.
Matthew Cline:
Don’t you love the notion that unless you do “XYZ” according to the sMothering handbook the child actually deserves the consequences? Screw the kids whose mothers tried, but could not breastfeed… or the adopted kids. They are obviously not kids that should live.
I noticed while looking back at old Jay Gordon posts here, he was taken o task for saying his practice was for breastfeeding mothers. Notice how he backtracks, though you do bring up a valid point.
Oh, I also see he has not learned much since then. I see he supported the fleecing of parents of disabled children though HBOT, chelation and other worthless therapies. Pity.
Until he learns it is all crap, his platitudes about not respecting the costs put on parents of disabled children is just worthless noise.
Dr. Gordon knows which side his bread is buttered on. “Organic Liason” is L Ron Hubbard’s naturopathic nonsense.
KSW, eh Jay?
I didn’t get H1N1 (yay, vaccines!), and I’ve only had the flu once in my adult life. But that once, I was absolutely miserable with the flu, then developed bronchial pneumonia which required an emergency room visit. It took two months and three rounds of antibiotics (the first two being two types of antibiotics each) to put me back on my feet. And that was just ordinary flu, not H1N1. If I’d known I could have a good chance of avoiding all that with one little shot a year, you bet I would have got my shot (and I have in the years since). But I thought flu shots were for old people and also, like a lot of people, I had no idea how bad flu could be. People who trivialize the flu clearly have never experienced a bad bout of it.
I don’t think it’s simplistic to attribute the current anti-vax nonsense to the efforts of Wakefield. There have been bouts of anti-vaxxers over the decades (mostly the “live bugs are poisoning the children” story), but Wakefield is the most prominent one peddling that nonsense who is both a certified medical practitioner and who actually conducted unethical procedures on a large number of victims and knowingly lied, saying he has evidence for his claims. The early 1990’s bout of anti-vax lunacy gained a new hero and has made a resurgence like the plague. I don’t think there has been such a large anti-vax effort since the early days of mass vaccinations. Who’s the father-son team of chelation quacks? I think the father is supposed to be an M.D. – I can’t even remember their names, but they sure are reaping the benefits of Wakefield’s contributions to thieving quackery.
@MadScientist
That would be Mark and David Geier. And they benefit more from David Kirby and RFK Jr.’s notion about the mercury in thimerosal, rather than Wakefield’s MMR nonsense. Which reminds me, is Kirby still keeping all mum on his statement that we would see a reduction in autism numbers if thimerosal were at fault?
@jen
I noticed you still have not provided any substantiation for your claim up at post #34. I’ll wait. I’m patient.
Well, will wonders EVER cease? jen actually gets something (partially) right regarding vaccines for once.
As pointed out, some health insurance companies in the USA reward physician practices (not just peds, anyone who cares for children) for attaining the HEDIS recommendations for childhood vaccines. However, the rewards aren’t very great…I think the last amount I heard was reimbursement for meeting the goal was about an extra $1.50/child. Nor is the reward a universal thing.
And the reimbursement for GIVING a vaccine? NOT a money maker. A participating doctor might get $25 for giving the vaccine and another $25 for the vaccine itself. (I tried to pick the most expensive routine vaccine and looked at recommended CMS reimbursement). Maybe a bit more (an extra $10-15) if multiple vaccines are given.
When you consider the price of vaccines, they are not a money maker for any doctor’s office. And when you consider the cost of getting the illness (for example, chicken pox has a high cost in lost work for parents, time at home – at least 7 days quarantine for those exposed, not counting if they actually get sick, daycares don’t reimburse days a child is out sick so that’s lost money), the doctor is SAVING you – and the country – money.
I fixed that for you (hope you don’t mind).
Are we sure this is the Jen we know and love? This “Jen” hasn’t resorted to profanity yet.
They didn’t say people would die, Sid. And yes, I do think that without vaccination, 1/2 to 1/3 of all people would easily get at least one vaccine-preventable disease some time in their life.
Indeed, you could argue that’s still the case now, if we count the flu as a vaccine-preventable disease.
@Kristen
No, I don’t mind. And, yes, we actually have had profanity from her up at comment #47:
Thanks Todd, that makes me feel so much better. I was starting to worry I was in an alternate universe (I need to stop watching Star Trek before bed).
As prominent US health educator, the late Dr. Herbert Shelton once pointed out:
“Belief in immunization is a form of delusional insanity.”
However as, Shakespeare’s Hamlet said:
“Tough this be madness, yet there is method in it!”
Dr Shelton’s statement could therefore be amended to say:
“Vaccination is an organised criminal enterprise disguised as disease prevention.”
For more information visit the ‘Vaccination Information Network’ (VINE) on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/editphoto.php?pid=6726871&id=69667273997#!/pages/Vaccination-Information-Network-VINE/69667273997
@Erwin Alber,
I’m afraid I’m not familiar with the late Dr. Herbert Shelton, so have no idea why he said what he said. I’m also confused on what you mean by what you said as well. Even Dr. Jay Gordon (the subject of more than one comment above) says that vaccinations work and have been effective at reducing or eliminating various diseases. Indeed, IMHO vaccines have been so successful at controlling these diseases that people who aren’t immunized run relatively little risk of contracting these diseases in the developed world at the present time (assuming no travelers come to town with the disease and they don’t travel to where the disease is).
So – we need a little more explanation than a slogan an accusation of criminal wrongdoing. Actual data (numeric if you have it) would be nice.
would that be this Herbert Shelton? From Wikipedia:
Herbert Macgolfin Shelton (6 October 1895â1 January 1985 was an American alternative medicine advocate, author, pacifist, vegetarian, and supporter of raw foodism and fasting cures. Shelton was nominated by the American Vegetarian Party to run as its candidate for President of the United States in 1956. He saw himself as the champion of original Natural hygiene ideas from the 1830s.
At least he was into 19th century stuff, not like the homeopaths with their 18th century ideas.
We can acctually cure deseases today 🙂 FUCKERS, FUCK YOU AND YOUR BRAINWASHING VACCINES
Thanks, Mu. I was going to ask who Herbert Shelton was. If he was a prominent American health educator, I sure had never heard of him! Certainly not like Abraham Flexner, who was key in making homeopathy the nothing is should be, and American osteopaths into actual doctors.
Oh, Erwin, if you wish to show vaccines don’t work and are dangerous you are going to have to show real data. Not quotes from obscure quacks, and playwrights (I’m sure Mr. Shakespeare would have preferred his son, Hamnet, to be protected from disease, rather than what happened). Just give us the actual studies that show the DTaP is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis.
@Mu:
I think that Sheldon’s wikipedia article gets better the further you read. If anyone’s profile screams QUACK this one fits the bill. He was NOT a doctor in the normal sense of the title, he was a naturopath(quack) though his is history of “healing” is interesting………
In 1927, he was arrested, jailed and fined three times for practicing medicine without a license. These arrests continued periodically through the next three decades while he continued to lecture and campaign for his ideas.
In 1932, Shelton was jailed repeatedly for practicing medicine without a license. Found guilty of violating the Medical Practice Act, he served 30 days on Rikers Island.
In 1942, Shelton was charged with negligent homicide and “treating and offering to treat a human being without a state medical license” for starving a patient to death. The case was never tried and charges were dropped.
In 1978, another patient died at one of his schools, this time apparently of a heart attack. After a two-year-long court battle, Shelton lost the lawsuit for negligence and was bankrupted by the judgment. The school closed as a result.
Only a loon would quote Sheltron as a reliable sourse.
Actually, to me, the most fascinating in the hole article was the list of institutions he got his education from:
Bernarr Macfadden’s College of Physcultopathy,Chicago
Lindlahr College of Natural Therapeutics for post-graduate work
Peerless College of Chiropractic in Illinois
American School of Chiropractic
American School of Naturopathy (Doctor of Naturopathy (ND) and a Doctor of Naturopathic Literature (ND Litt))
And there we thought all this NS stuff was “New Age” inspired, they had bogus schools way back then.
@Mu:
Yes, I found that interesting but not as much as his propensity to kill his patients.
BTW. “new age thinking” had its start in the 19th century and they have been looking backwards ever since.
Whatever happened to our friend Jay? Is he still fireing ad hominem attacks towards poor Penn Jillette? Doesn’t Jay realize that he has more to loose if he is wrong? Doesn’t Jay realize that his statements after the show don’t match his statements before the show or what is on his website?
My guess is P&T send him the unedited version of his interview and offered to put it on youtube if he insisted on claiming they somehow manipulated what he said. At which point he remembered the “silence is golden” meme.
His gotcha moment has been exposed as a Wile E. Coyote moment.
Self-awareness is not one of Dr. Gordon’s strong points.
Neither is objectivity.
We should not expect any understanding of science from Dr. Gordon, either.
But there is a camera. A camera! Can’t you hear the sirens singing? Dr. Gordon can hear them and he is following that song in his own particular idiom.
.
Vaccine manufacturers have paid out nearly $2B in damages to parents in America whose children were harmed by one of the childhood jabs such as the MMR (measles-mumps-rubella) or DPT (diphtheria-pertussis-tetanus). In all, around 2,000 families have received compensation payments that have averaged $850,000 each. There are a further 700 claims that are going through the pipeline. None of the claims is for autism as medical researchers say they have failed to find a link between the disease and the MMR vaccine, despite the initial findings made by Dr Andrew Wakefield. Instead they are for a wide spectrum of physical and mental conditions that are likely to have been caused by one of the vaccinations. Around 7,000 parents have filed a claim of an adverse reaction with America’s Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP). To win an award, the claimant must prove a causal link to a vaccine. As the medical establishment has refused to recognise any link to autism, the VICP has so far rejected 300 claims for this outright. (Source: New England Journal of Medicine)Medicine, 2007; 357: 1275-9
@ang
A couple problems with this statement. First, Andrew Wakefield is not a doctor. He does not hold a doctorate, and his medical license in the U.K. has been revoked. He has no other license to practice medicine.
Second, Mr. Wakefield never found any link between MMR vaccine and autism. Go back and read his study. He stated in public (interviews, press releases, etc.) that there was a link, but he has no science to back up that claim.
Third, the study to which you refer (I’m assuming the Lancet study from 1998) had numerous ethical violations and may very well have been fraudulent. As a result, it was retracted completely from the scientific literature.
In sum, there have been no findings of any connection between MMR vaccine and autism.
More like, a causal link between vaccines and autism has not yet been established. With no link established, there is nothing to recognize, nor is there a link to refuse to recognize.
This is not entirely accurate. In order to win an award, the claimant must prove that, more likely than not, the vaccine was the proximate cause of the injury. They most certainly do not need to prove to a scientific standard a causal link.
Now, what exactly is the point you are trying to make?
Ang is trying to point out that (s)he has no clue. Vaccine manufacturers don’t pay out anything, all lawsuits in the vaccine court are against the Secretary of Health and Human Services.
ang – so people who have possibly experienced one of the known (and acknowledged!) side effects of a vaccine are being compensated and this is bad, how? It’s only a “gotcha!” if someone was claiming vaccines are 100% safe and no one is ever harmed by them – which no one is.
Also, I don’t believe you’re correct in claiming “the claimant must prove a causal link to a vaccine” – that would be true in a “normal” court, but not the Vaccine Court. There are a whole list of possible side effects from vaccines and if someone experiences that side effect they are automatically compensated – no proof necessary that it was actually the vaccine that caused it. For a claim that is not an already acknowledged side-effect then, IIRC, the claimant only has to prove it was “more likely than not” caused by the vaccine – which is much easier to do than prove an actual causal link.
@Mu
Ah, good catch. I missed that point.
Ang, you might want to take a closer look at info on the VICP. I have a summary on my site (linked by my name) with links to the actual VICP site.
” It’s only a “gotcha!” if someone was claiming vaccines are 100% safe and no one is ever harmed by them – which no one is. ”
Just to clarify, I’m saying that no one claims vaccines are 100% safe and no one is ever harmed for them. I am not claiming no one is ever harmed by them.
In vaccine court “the claimant must prove a causal link to a vaccine”
This is not correct. The claimant only has to show that the vaccine “may” have caused the disorder. The standard of evidence in vaccine court is so low that it would not be considered proof in any other context.
From this it follows that cases compensated in vaccine court do not establish a causal connection. They merely follow the public-interest principle behind the court that it is better to compensate in cases that only may be vaccine-related than see vaccines driven off the market by the costs of excessive litigation.
On the other hand, the omnibus hearings established that, even on this very low standard of evidence, it could not be established that vaccines even MAY have caused autism in the relevant children.
I really don’t understand what the anti-vaxxers have against the Vaccine Court – since it was specifically designed to give claimants a better opportunity for compensation, by relaxing the traditional standards of evidence (better than what they would face in a traditional civil trial).
The fact that $2 billion dollars have been paid out, seems to me, to show that the system works.
ang:
Which MMR vaccine did Wakefield study? The one that was approved for use in the UK before or after 1992?
@145
Thanks for your insightful comment. Would you care to discuss the cures for the following diseases:
– influenza
– polio
– rabies
– measles
The study by Thompson and coworkers in this issue of the Journal (pages 1281â1292), the third and most comprehensive to date, also found no evidence of neurologic problems in children exposed to mercury-containing vaccines or immune globulins.
In August 2005, a 5-year-old autistic boy in suburban Pittsburgh died from an arrhythmia caused by the injection of the chelating agent EDTA.
By choosing not to vaccinate their children, these parents have elevated a theoretical (and now disproved) risk above the real risk of being hospitalized or killed by influenza.
ang cited 2 papers in that issue – at least the pages cited covered 2 papers. What I quoted is from the paper ang did not quote from. There is a third paper, which is original research demonstrating that there is no link between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism.
Complete information exposes ang’s attempt to be scary. I can provide quotes, too. Unlike ang, I will encourage you to read all of the papers.
Go read all of the papers, not just ang’s misleading quotes.
–
Thimerosal and Vaccines â A Cautionary Tale
Paul A. Offit, M.D.
N Engl J Med 2007; 357:1278-1279September 27, 2007
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp078187
The paper ang quoted was –
Cases in Vaccine Court â Legal Battles over Vaccines and Autism
Stephen D. Sugarman, J.D.
N Engl J Med 2007; 357:1275-1277September 27, 2007
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp078168
Both were following this new (new in 2007) research –
Early Thimerosal Exposure and Neuropsychological Outcomes at 7 to 10 Years
William W. Thompson, Ph.D., Cristofer Price, Sc.M., Barbara Goodson, Ph.D., David K. Shay, M.D., M.P.H., Patti Benson, M.P.H., Virginia L. Hinrichsen, M.S., M.P.H., Edwin Lewis, M.P.H., Eileen Eriksen, M.P.H., Paula Ray, M.P.H., S. Michael Marcy, M.D., John Dunn, M.D., M.P.H., Lisa A. Jackson, M.D., M.P.H., Tracy A. Lieu, M.D., M.P.H., Steve Black, M.D., Gerrie Stewart, M.A., Eric S. Weintraub, M.P.H., Robert L. Davis, M.D., M.P.H. and Frank DeStefano, M.D., M.P.H. for the Vaccine Safety Datalink Team
N Engl J Med 2007; 357:1281-1292September 27, 2007
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa071434
.
Mephistopheles, you simply wait long enough and not die. You’re cured!
“Which MMR vaccine did Wakefield study?”
Wakefield has never studied any vaccine. He wouldn’t know how to. I suppose he might have read some book chapters, but I don’t think that’s what you mean.
Leif:
That’s rich coming from a juvenile film director.
@Orange Lantern: D’oh! It’s so simple – that makes so much of modern medicine seem so misguided now! Just don’t die and eventually you’ll be cured!
I feel such a fool.
@Mephistopheles: Well, it’s easier than flying by throwing yourself at the ground and missing.
[Hat tip to the late Mr. Adams.]
@Lawrence,
Your question as to what the anti-vaxers hate about the vaccine court is easily answered. It didn’t support their vaccine-autism link. As many pointed out, even the low threshold of evidence required was too high a barrier to convince the vaccine court.
Mephistopheles: I think antivirals are used against rabies, and I know they are used against influenza. They’re not cures, of course, but there are treatments for them. (I’m not sure if measles is ever treated with antivirals, but that’s because it’s still a rare disease here.)
@ 168, Dedicated Lurker
I didn’t really know much about the Rabies virus other than the indications for prophylaxis reguarding it. So I hopped over to my trusty friend eMedicine and read some pretty interesting things.
Source: http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/785543-overview
Mortality/Morbidity
Although rabies is considered to be a uniformly fatal disease, 3 cases of survival were reported in the 1970s. No additional survival cases have been reported in the 1980s and 1990s. These 3 cases involved patients who were given duck embryo vaccine or suckling mouse brain vaccine before onset of clinical symptoms. Three additional cases of survival, which were not clearly documented, were reported in the 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s.
An additional case in Wisconsin was reported in 2004; a 15-year-old adolescent girl survived rabies without preexposure or postexposure prophylaxis. The girl was bitten by a bat 1 month prior and was given intravenous ribavirin and kept comatose for 7 days. She has partially recovered. As stated above, this is the sixth known case of human recovery from rabies; however, this is the first patient who did not receive rabies prophylaxis either before or after the onset of symptoms.
Without pre-exposure vaccination or post-exposure prophylaxis, it’s pretty much a death sentence. Apparantly, rabies progresses over 14 days on average, and the mean death rate occurs on day 16 or so. Neurologic symptoms begin to manifest in 2 days.
Source: http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/785543-treatment
Successful treatment of the virus pretty much means getting the vaccine right after the bite.
@ Chance Gearheart:
To quote Harry Stone from Night Court: “Sounds kinda pesky.”
Penn’s denial on Twitter wasn’t really a denial, he said “we try really hard not to do that.” I’ll reserve judgment on that one. It’s certainly possibly Dr. Jay was edited to say the opposite.
I really like P&T though, even I disagree with them at least half the time. I’ll have to wait for this episode on netflix.
OK, I have a serious question here, that may sound stupid:
Is there such a thing as a prophylactic rabies vaccine like we give our cats and dogs, for humans? (and if not, why not?)
I know the risks (however small) of giving it to the general population probably wouldn’t be worth it in modern-day America, but if you were going to be out in the wild for an extended period or something….
Jay … You, knowing full well who Penn & Teller were, and what their show was like, went on the show anyway?
Shame on you for being so easily duped.
@172 – according to http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00056176.htm, yes there is a prophylactic rabies vaccine. According to the site:
As it turns out, it’s the same vaccine you take after you have been exposed.
Ah, thanks Mephistopheles. As long as they don’t have to go into your spinal column through the stomach any more! [/joke]
OK, stupid question # 2: is there any other vaccine that works after you’ve been exposed to the virus? ‘Cause I’m drawing a blank.
Damn lack of an edit button!
Yeah, I know about tetanus, but I think you have to get that shot pretty damn quick, not just “before symptoms appear”.
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge asks:
Not really, although some recommend giving the MMR and DTaP vaccine to contacts of people with those diseases (primarily measles, pertussis and diphtheria). However, the last two are a bit like tetanus, where the bacteria must first produce enough of the toxin (which is what the vaccines are directed against) to cause symptoms.
Rabies is an unusually slow virus (six to eight weeks from exposure to first symptoms, if I remember correctly), so vaccination after exposure is adequate (as long as it is soon after exposure). Once symptoms show up, it is too late. The mortality of human rabies is – barring one or two questionable cases of survival – 100%.
The rabies vaccine is no longer a big deal since they’ve started growing it in human cell culture – it’s four intramuscular injections (or it was when I got my post-exposure prophylaxis in 1987) and a dose of rabies immune globulin.
As for measles, tetanus, pertussis and diphtheria: although contacts are pretty routinely given vaccinations after exposure, there is no data suggesting that will help unless you have already had at least a partial primary course of vaccination. In other words, if you were never vaccinated, the post-exposure vaccination probably won’t work.
Prometheus
Thanks, everybody.
Oh, BTW: I’ve watched the show now, and no matter what the beginning of Dr. Jay’s sentence (that might or might nothave been truncated) really was, there’s no way in hell it would have reversed the meaning. Just no way in hell.
Both measles and varicella can be administered as post-exposure prophylaxis (within 72 hours of exposure).
@ zoe237, yes he was edited prior to his first statement. But nothing he has offered, i.e. that would make that statement mean the complete opposite, aligns with the rest of the statement, nor his statements on his website.
#53:
Are you sure about that? I mean, Thimerosal sounds an awful like Thiotimoline. Conincidence? I think not!
#53:
Are you sure about that? I mean, Thimerosal sounds an awful like Thiotimoline. Conincidence? I think not!
augustine said: ” ‘Measles is an infectious disease characterised by a high temperature and red spots all over the body.’ And generally that’s all it is. When you combine ANY virus or bacteria with disease fostering environment vaccine or no vaccine bad things are going to happen.”
More intellectual dishonesty from augie, who not only failed to source this quote, but also disingenuously quote-mined the article. (I personally was amused that he didn’t even bother to change the British spelling of “characterised”. He usually does a little bit of editing to make the plagiarized text come across as somewhat original.) The article that augie plagiarized goes on to say, “Large and deadly outbreaks of measles in 30 African countries threaten to reverse gains made against the viral disease in the past two decades, the World Health Organisation (WHO) said in May.
More than 1,100 deaths from measles have been reported among 64,000 known cases in Africa the last year, it said. Chad, Nigeria and Zimbabwe have had the largest outbreaks.” You’re getting sloppy with your lies, augie, you lying liar.
Source: Mabvuto, Banda. “Measles kills 197 people in Malawi since January.” Reuters 16 Aug 2010: n. pag. Web. 17 Aug 2010..
But wait, the dishonesty continues. In attempting to refute the argument that “[The kid with a flu shot is a kid who doesn’t infect her 80-year-old grandfather.]”, augie linked to this article in the Cochrane Library:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/o/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD004879/frame.html
Which states, “The review authors found that in children aged from two years, nasal spray vaccines made from weakened influenza viruses were better at preventing illness caused by the influenza virus (82% of illnesses were prevented) than injected vaccines made from the killed virus (59%).”
This supports the statement that vaccines are effective in preventing children from getting influenza. Uninfected children can’t infect the elderly. Of course, the link doesn’t direct to a full text article, typical of augie’s half-assed scholarship.
Speaking of full text articles, when are you going to refute the data I presented you with on 8/12/2010? I’m truly curious to see your response.
Wow! Great plexiglass visual. I see what mean. I thought for sure he was going to roll that thing back and “kill” a couple of gnomes with the vaccine plexiglass. That would’ve been a fair representation. Or have one of those vibrating football fields you had, when you were a kid, that shook the crap out of the vaccine side. So what if a few fell down? Who cares?
Just curious. Are Penn & Teller atheists? Do they use critical thinking, skepticism, and a “mixture of science” to give their audiences the illusion of truth?
I got it! Is augie just young Master Crosby in disguise? He is perseverating on the whole atheist thing, and perseveration is a trait of autism. He engages in many similar logical fallacies like Jakey. Hmm…the overall writing style is a bit different, though.
Still, his insistence on the whole “atheist” thing is kind of amusing. You’re always good for a chuckle, augie.
Umm, augie? Might want to fix that needle on your broken record.
Baxter:[Speaking of full text articles, when are you going to refute the data I presented you with on 8/12/2010? I’m truly curious to see your response.]
What do you need refuted? The data or your conclusion? What’s your conclusion?
You malawi citation has been addressed on another thread. You really should be more objective with your information or at least demonstrate the ability to look at the big picture. You hastiness is duly noted. You should check out the country of Malawi. At least have rudimentary background knowledge of it before you go on you fearmongering campaign. You sound like the media. I would say that it’s intellectually dishonest but you just don’t know any better.
Yes. And this is relevant…exactly how?
I don’t know, I’ve been thinking recently that augustine is maybe Joe Mercola himself. Nothing absolute or anything, but I’ve noticed that augie is quick to jump in anytime Mercola’s name is mentioned, and he seems to agree with everything Mercola says.
Now, there is certainly woo magnetism, but to have so many loopy pet issues in common? Hard to imagine it is a coincidence.
Pablo,
I’ve been thinking recently also. You seem to agree with everything Orac says. I think you are ORAC himself. British accent and all.
Well, I’m Spartacus.
I’m Henry VIII, I am!
I’m Spartacus, and so’s my wife!
Just curious.
Augustine, do you take the Bible literally or do you follow a particular interpretation.
@The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge:
Because measles, mumps, rubella, pertussis, polio, and smallpox were all created by a loving God.
Todd W.:
Actually, I am thinking he is the love child of Dennis Markuze (see PZ Myers’ dungeon) and Jake Crosby’s mother.
@Augie: I can reassure you, even if Orac has a British accent, his “friend” does not. (How does a blinking box of plexiglass have an accent of any kind?) His accent is the same as mine, and I was born and lived in the USA all my life.
@Lycanthrope #191. Great. Now I have to listen to that song on my iPod to get it out of my mind (I have a few Herman’s Hermits songs on there) All together now: Second verse, same as the first…
@Prometheus#178: actually, rabies has a variable length of incubation depending on where the person was bitten and how many times. It can be a matter of hours, or weeks. IIRC,the last information I read about it says that someone bitten on the head/neck, even if prophylaxis is started immediately, the death rate is quite high.
augustine siad: “You (sic) malawi (sic) citation has been addressed on another thread. You really should be more objective with your information or at least demonstrate the ability to look at the big picture. You (sic) hastiness is duly noted. You should check out the country of Malawi. At least have rudimentary background knowledge of it before you go on you fearmongering campaign. You sound like the media. I would say that it’s intellectually dishonest but you just don’t know any better.”
Another abject lie. I never cited anything about Malawi prior to my most recent post. The purpose of the citation was to source the quote that you initially failed to cite when you plagiarized it. For a third time, I have caught you plagiarizing and done the work of citing your source for you. I should think you would have recognized the pattern by now.
The references I am referring to are the ones you have continued to ignore that cite real data from real journals, not from the media. You know, like Reuters, who published the article about Malawi that you recently plagiarized and quote-mined. To remind you, on August 10, 2010, you claimed that it is a slippery slope to go from low polio vaccination rates to increased incidence of polio. I responded with links to the following data.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2560703/pdf/10812730.pdf
http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/reprint/33/12/3252?view=long&pmid=8586711
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2271413/pdf/epidinfect00053-0073.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2596452/pdf/yjbm00110-0214.pdf
I have then reminded you daily of your neglect to address this issue. You are hasty to sling accusations of commissions of logical fallacies, but it has taken you 8 days and counting to refute the evidence that your accusation was utter nonsense.
Rabies is an unusually slow virus (six to eight weeks from exposure to first symptoms, if I remember correctly), so vaccination after exposure is adequate (as long as it is soon after exposure). Once symptoms show up, it is too late.
I was under the impression that the viruses progress up nerves and along the spinal cord. If you’re bitten on the arm or leg, then good news, injections of the prophylaxis give your immune system a chance to get up to speed before they reach your brain. A bite on the neck, not so good news.
So rabies is very much of a special case.
I think he is referring to Peter Tuddenham, the actor who voiced Orac in Blake’s 7 (he was british).
IIRC Augustine knows who Orac’s “friend” is. I don’t know if he knew before the anti-vaxers tried to get him fired, or not.
@Kristen:
I know. I was trying to be smart, implying that a box should not have an accent (thinking of the mechanical voice used by many) Guess it didn’t come out right. :-/
Augie does know who the “friend” is now, but, like so many trolls, doesn’t dare go over to the other site where the friend posts because he knows he’ll get trounced over there.
OK, stupid question # 2: is there any other vaccine that works after you’ve been exposed to the virus? ‘Cause I’m drawing a blank.
According to this Immunization Action Coaltion page, post-exposure immunoprophylaxis for Hep B works.
http://www.immunize.org/askexperts/experts_hepb.asp
The incubation period for the Hep B virus is about 90 days.
I have also read that there is evidence that post-exposure prophylaxis works for measles and varicella.
It also is recommended for Hepatitis A:
Dr Jay Gordon Has Jumped on the Celebrity Diet Bandwagon Joining Kirstie Alleys Organic Liaison Advisory Board
I guess hes still chasing Celebrity quackery!
he is listed as an advisor on Kirsties site ..shilling her crappy Scientology detox diet.
The concern about vaccines involved the side effects. It has nothing to do with Autism.
Update: Vaccine Side Effects, Adverse Reactions, Contraindications, and Precautions Recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP)
Summary
This report provides updated information concerning the potential adverse events associated with vaccination for hepatitis B, poliomyelitis, measles, mumps, diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis. This information incorporates findings from a series of recent literature reviews, conducted by an expert committee at the Institute of Medicine (IOM), of all evidence regarding the possible adverse consequences of vaccines administered to children. This report contains modifications to the previously published recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) and is based on an ACIP review of the IOM findings and new research on vaccine safety. In addition, this report incorporates information contained in the “Recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices: Use of Vaccines and Immune Globulins in Persons with Altered Immunocompetence” (MMWR 1993;42{No. RR-4}) and the “General Recommendations on Immunization: Recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP)” (MMWR 1994;43{No. RR-1}). Major changes to the previous recommendations are highlighted within the text, and specific information concerning the following vaccines and the possible adverse events associated with their administration are included: hepatitis B vaccine and anaphylaxis; measles vaccine and a) thrombocytopenia and b) possible risk for death resulting from anaphylaxis or disseminated disease in immunocompromised persons; diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and pertussis vaccine (DTP) and chronic encephalopathy; and tetanus-toxoid-containing vaccines and a) Guillain-Barre syndrome, b) brachial neuritis, and c) possible risk for death resulting from anaphylaxis. These modifications will be incorporated into more comprehensive ACIP recommendations for each vaccine when such statements are revised. Also included in this report are interim recommendations concerning the use of measles and mumps vaccines in
1.
persons who are infected with human immunodeficiency virus and
2.
persons who are allergic to eggs; ACIP is still evaluating these recommendations.
INTRODUCTION
Immunization has enabled the global eradication of smallpox (1), the elimination of poliomyelitis from the Western hemisphere (2), and major reductions in the incidence of other vaccine-preventable diseases in the United States (Table_1). However, although immunization has successfully reduced the incidence of vaccine-preventable diseases, vaccination can cause both minor and, rarely, serious side effects. Public awareness of and controversy about vaccine safety has increased, primarily because increases in vaccine coverage resulted in an increased number of adverse events that occurred after vaccination. Such adverse events include both true reactions to vaccine and events coincidental to, but not caused by, vaccination. Despite concerns about vaccine safety, vaccination is safer than accepting the risks for the diseases these vaccines prevent. Unless a disease has been eradicated (e.g., smallpox), failure to vaccinate increases the risks to both the individual and society.
In response to concerns about vaccine safety, the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 established a no-fault compensation process for persons possibly injured by selected vaccines (3). The Act also mandated that the Institute of Medicine * (IOM) review scientific and other evidence regarding the possible adverse consequences of vaccines administered to children.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00046738.htm
Any press is good press for Dr. Jay. This isn’t the first show he’s been on and then whined about being taken out of context or lied to.
Any press is good press for Dr. Jay. This isn’t the first show he’s been on and then whined about being taken out of context or lied to.
Any press is good press for Dr. Jay. This isn’t the first show he’s been on and then whined about being taken out of context or lied to.
Any press is good press for Dr. Jay. This isn’t the first show he’s been on and then whined about being taken out of context or lied to.
@Lola: do you have a point to make? No one here denies that vaccines can have side effects, those side effects may injure some children (the Vaccine Court was created for that) and that some people should not be vaccinated. Long copy/pastes without any point are simply trolling. (but at least you DID have the courtesy to give your reference)
This is really frustrating. Since I have to sign on for Pharyngula, it uses the signon name. The previous post by triskelethecat was mine. MI Dawn
Hi–
I lost ten pounds with Kirstie’s stuff. Not being paid but I am happy to advise my friend of nearly twenty years. And, no, I am not a Scientologist even though it certainly makes as much sense as most other religions. (Wait! You threw the incredibly great Richard Dawkins under the bus. Should I be honored when you treat me the same way?) And, yes, I end up on “celebrity bandwagons” often enough; I live in their hometown.
Regarding Penn and Teller: When the topic is bottled water or sex, editing for comic effect might be OK. They chopped words out of my sentences and did voice overs of different questions than the ones I was answering.
Even when we all disagree here at RI, we try to be honest. I have readily accepted your advice and knowledge and learned.
Penn and Teller are clowns and they handled a serious topic in an irresponsible way. Give them the back of your hand as any scientist and honorable person would.
Best,
Jay
They didn’t edit you mid-sentence and what you provided as an alternate explanation for editing what came before, “children should not be vaccinated”, does not parse with the rest of your (clearly) unedited statement. Why don’t you provide time stamps and examples of your accusations of voicing over alternate questions.
You have said you are familiar with P&T’s schtick prior to going on the show. What, exactly, did you think they were going to do? They got the basics right and simply let the anti-vax ‘spokespeople’ speak for themselves. If you don’t care for how you came off, then perhaps you should be more selective regarding your media appearances. And no, ‘somebody had to do it’ doesn’t cast you as a shining martyr for the cause; you wanted to do it.
Jay, you still need to change your website to get rid of the errors in regard to vaccination that were discussed above.
Plus, you need to tell everyone to stay away from scam artists like the Geiers, Bradstreet, Doctors Data and every vendor on Jenny McCarthy’s “Let’s Go Shopping” page on Generation Rescue.
Until you do that, you will also be considered a clown.
Lola, you forgot on crucial thing in your big cut and paste: the relative risks between the vaccines and the diseases. Since pertussis is now epidemic in California you should tell us how the DTaP and Tdap have more risks than pertussis.
Bullshit. According to you, then, you said
“[I am not saying that] children should not be vaccinated. This is very much at odds with the mainstream medical point of view which says that there’s no connection between vaccines and autism. I think that that is a flat-out lie.”
Even leaving aside the rhythm of the quote, which makes it QUITE clear that “children” was the beginning of a sentence, this would be utterly incoherent, even ludicrous. Whereas what they did quote is consistent, both internally AND with everything you’ve said over the years.
There is only one credible interpretation. Penn and Teller quoted you accurately, and your denial is a flat-out lie.
Call me Pollyanna, but I’m willing to accept that “Dr. Jay” said “…under one year,…” prior to “children should not be vaccinated…”, pending release of the unedited tape.
Of course, that still leaves children under 12 months old vulnerable to diphtheria, tetanus (tetanus neonatorum, anyone?), pertussis (the bulk of pertussis deaths are in children under 12 months old), hepatitis B (95+% chance of chronic hepatitis B in infected infants if they aren’t vaccinated) and polio. But, heck, those are all mild childhood diseases, aren’t they?
I think what “Dr. Jay” is banking on is that “the little people” and lumpenproletariat (i.e. not celebrities) will continue to vaccinate their children in order to protect the kids in his practice.
However, even after the “correction” submitted by “Dr. Jay”, his statement effectively eliminates the MMR vaccine as a potential concern, since that isn’t given before 12 months except in unusual situations. So, I guess “Dr. Jay” is admitting – albeit very indirectly – that the MMR doesn’t cause autism, right?
The quote I want to see “Dr. Jay” explain is the one where he describes seeing children become autistic immediately after receiving a vaccination. That one didn’t have any evidence of editing that I could see. So, “Dr. Jay”, are you claiming that you witnessed a child becoming autistic minutes after receiving a vaccination?
I’m definitely not holding my breath waiting for an answer.
Prometheus
Where has he claimed saying that? On Autism News Beat (linked in Orac’s original post) he said
So saying elsewhere that it was preceded by “under one year” would be extremely, shall we say, TELLing?
Scott, I believe the “not vaccination children under twelve months” is a reference to one of Jay Gordon’s websites. Some of which are quoted much earlier in this thread.
Scott, that’s exactly right. On ANB he claimed it was something like “I’m not saying that…” and later, up above in comment 54 on this very blog he said the “sense of it” was something like “My point of view is that during the first year of life…”
The story changed from a 180 degree edit to an edit that makes the claim mildly more outrageous.
I think it’s very telling.
Scott & Orange Lantern,
What I wrote was based on claims “Dr. Jay” has made on this ‘blog (#54). After reading your comments, I checked what “Dr. Jay” has written elsewhere and find that he makes yet a different claim.
How surprising!
Frankly, Penn and Teller’s editors had no need to distort the words of “Dr. Jay” in order to make him look like a fool. After all, it’s not as though “Dr. Jay” hasn’t made a fool of himself – on this very ‘blog – with no editing at all.
Maybe we should ask – nicely, politely, respectfully – for “Dr. Jay” to clarify which “correction” is the correct one. Did he say (deleted words in italics):
This would at least be consistent with the next sentence out of his mouth, even if it does leave the MMR vaccine “off the hook” for autism.
or did he say:
The problem here is that it would be inconsistent with the next sentence, where he says “This is very much at odds with the mainstream medical point of view, which says that there’s no connection between vaccines and autism.”
There is, of course, a third alternative: “Dr. Jay” can’t remember what he said, but he doesn’t like the way he came across on the show, so he’s going to claim that his words were “taken out of context”.
It is telling that his first “clarification” was [2] (the inconsistent one) and he later “re-clarified” his statements in a way that was more consistent with his stated “philosophy” – not to mention being more consistent with his next sentence. It’s almost as though he went back and watched the video again and realised that his first “clarification” didn’t work….
It would be fascinating to compare his answer(s) to the unedited tape.
Prometheus
As always, you guys are classy as can be. I can see why you might enjoy Penn’s work.
http://revision3.com/pennpoint/handjobs
Everybody here knows I dislike and distrust the current vaccine schedule. Everybody who’s been here a while also knows that I give vaccines in my office, disagree strongly with the Geiers’ Lupron therapy and that I am willing to listen to your opinions and appreciate them.
My words were edited, my answers to one question were then framed to look like answers to another question and the cheapest of editing tricks were used to make me look even sillier than you think I am. It is unethical journalism and violated the agreement the producers stated in their communications.
No, I don’t remember my exact words. I did not anticipate what they would do and for that I confess great naivete. I can tell you that the first part of a sentence was edited out to, literally, reverse the meaning of my answer.
Prometheus, no I have not witnessed what you described within minutes of vaccination.
Your persistence in making “science” sound like a monolithic way of doing things makes you sound less intelligent than most of you probably are. Science changes year. Methodologies are questioned and conclusions changed. (Maybe someday someone will read these archives and brand me the sanest most scientific person on the site.)
“No, I don’t remember my exact words.”
And here lies the problem.
You can’t remember what exactly you said, but what you are known to have said is entirely consistent with how you are percieved here, and holds to that consistency even if we take away the context provided by the question.
Your provided explanations are contradictory and inconsistent with the follow on sentence. There appears to be no frame skip in the video, which would indicate that it was said as a single passage. You appear to have admitted it was a singular passage.
Your follow on sentence is entirely inconsistent with your claim that you actually meant the reverse. You have provided no explanation for how this is so.
“Methodologies are questioned and conclusions changed.”
Using heirarchies of evidence that you don’t subscribe to. You can’t claim personal anecdote as superior data and then turn around and rely upon the very schema and methodologies you disdain (only when they go against you mind) to berate another person.
Dr. Gordon, I’ve asked you about rubella several times on this blog, but you have not answered. So I’ll ask again, another way. 1) what percentage of your patients do you vaccinate against rubella? 2) do you warn your unvaccinated female patients, or their parents, about congenital rubella syndrome?
Dr. Jay,
You still haven’t addressed one thing you said that was definitely not edited. You claimed that you saw children who were developing normally become autistic right in your office after vaccination. I called bullshit on that in my post, and I call bullshit on that claim now.
So, according to our intrepid researchers, Jay Gordon has now come up with two different versions of what Penn & Teller’s show supposedly edited out of his comments, while still acknowledging that he doesn’t remember what he said.
Poor Jay is disappearing further down the rabbit hole with every update.
Jay says: “Your persistence in making “science” sound like a monolithic way of doing things makes you sound less intelligent than most of you probably are. Methodologies are questioned and conclusions changed.”
Jay, can you remind us – are you actually a physician? Sneering at science makes you sound like something else entirely. We know that the practice of medicine still employs a certain degree of “art” in addition to science, but the art aspect does not equate to illegible squiggles.
It is flamingly obvious to anyone with decent critical thinking skills that in a field so overwhelmingly dependent on scientific knowledge, one employs the best science available to supplement one’s clinical skills. One does not shrug one’s shoulders and say “Well, the science could change one day and I’ll be right, so whoopee! anything goes!!”
In my own specialty (pathology) criteria for a particular diagnosis change and evolve over time to reflect new discoveries and relevant clinical research. Knowing that does not permit me to arrogantly toss out the current standards in favor of some unproven and dubious theory that suits me better. Though it might be fun to be a Brave Maverick Doctor, it would actuallly be doing a grave disservice to patients.
Ace Equipment Rentals – how can we help you?
My name is Jay Gordon, Brave Maverick Doctor and I have fallen in a hole. I’ve been digging for hours with this shovel but I keep going deeper.
How big a ladder do you want? A 30 foot extension ladder is $20 a day plus deposit.
What would I want a ladder for? How much do you charge for a backhoe?
I would like to see the unedited video released.
I think that some people will start making a big deal about, Oooh, look what they left out, but that is just the way editing works. Editing is leaving things out.
What will be apparent to objective observers is that the more Dr. Gordon talks, the worse he looks.
Dr. Gordon does not often provide us with isolated embarrassingly wrong statements. Dr. Gordon generally provides us with a series of embarrassingly wrong statements.
Calling Penn and Teller clowns is just silly, since Dr. Gordon’s behavior makes some three ring circuses appear subtle. Penn and Teller are entertainers, who happen to use provocative entertainment to educate.
If Penn and Teller were part of Dr. Gordon’s three ring circus, would Dr. Gordon be complaining that he is shocked to find clowns in his circus? No. Dr. Gordon would praise their innovative methods of education.
Dr. Gordon’s focus on anecdotes does not suggest any credibility or expertise.
I don’t know who would need to give permission to release the video, but I think that releasing the unedited video is the only way to satisfy people about what Dr. Gordon actually said.
Did they edit that statement in any of the ways that Dr. Gordon suggests? I don’t know, but I don’t see why they would have to for two reasons.
1. Dr. Gordon has made similar statements before.
2. Dr. Gordon openly endorses people who have made these statements.
I would like to see Dr. Gordon behave responsibly by criticizing those who discourage vaccination.
I would like to see Dr. Gordon develop an understanding of science.
Like Prometheus, I am not holding my breath.
.
I finally got to watch this episode. Dr. Jay, in my opinion was quoted correctly. It doesn’t sound like he was in the middle of a sentence. But, like I said, that is my opinion.
On a more positive note; watching the Rybell’s (spelling?) at dinner, their son saying “monsters vs aliens” just made me smile so big. That is how Gabriel talks, always preoccupied with his current train of thought. It feel an instant camaraderie when I see other reasonable parents who are doing the best for their children without resorting to anger and finger-pointing.
I’ll try to make this simple. Dr. Jay, please fill in the blank with what you think you said and what will mesh with the rest of the statement:
“__________________ Children should not be vaccinated; this is very much at odds with the mainstream medical point of view which says that there is no connection between vaccines and autism and I think that is a flat-out lie.”
It will be like playing Mad Libs.
But you said you did: “I have seen children, face to face who were developing normally until they got shots, at least a few times it happened in my office, where very shortly after they received a vaccine, they developed symptoms of autism and then became autistic.”
Do children stay in your office for days, weeks, months? Is it not safe to assume to believe that if you were face to face with these children who developed ‘symptoms of autism’, in your office, that this didn’t happen within minutes?
To address LW first: I vaccinate none of my patients against rubella unless they have very unusual travel plans. Rubella no longer poses a threat to American women and children. The CDC declared this over five years ago.
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/health_science/articles/2005/03/22/rubella_wiped_out_in_us_cdc_says/
I would like to see unedited tape, too. I’ll take a try this weekend but I doubt they’ll release it because now they have me looking foolish and the unedited version will make them look unethical. Which choice do you think they’ll make?
Orac, I have seen a few children who received vaccines elsewhere come to my office just days later with signs and symptoms of autism. Their parents and doctors have confirmed the temporal relationship.
I have seen another few children who received vaccines in my office who developed autism with close temporal relationship to vaccinations.
I have had dozens upon dozens of parents transfer to my practice who have told me that their children were developing normally and became autistic with close temporal relationship to vaccination.
I have had contact with thousands of families with stories similar to that last group. If, however, you thought I was saying that I have seen children receive a vaccine in my office and develop autism five minutes later right before my eyes, you have misunderstood me. You do always have the last word, though, but I have no reason not to tell you the truth.
Prometheus, Rogue, I can only defend my own words and actions. There are certainly people who agree with me about this topic–vaccines must be safer, more judiciously administered and will continue to contribute to large problems in children unless something’s changed–who make immoderate statements and even inaccurate statements.
You may appear on this website with people who are intemperate and inaccurate and you have no obligation to defend them. I stand by my friends and allies but do not always agree with every one of their ideas or words.
I continue to enjoy these exchanges with all of you and respect that your defense of the current vaccine schedule and vaccines in general is meant in the best interests of children. My words and actions have the same intention. We just have very different experiences and interpretation of the science involved.
Best,
Jay
But, Dr. Jay, that’s not what you said on P&T:BS! This is what you said: “I have seen children, face to face who were developing normally until they got shots, at least a few times it happened in my office, where very shortly after they received a vaccine, they developed symptoms of autism and then became autistic.”
Your story keeps morphing. Why on earth are you surprised that I think your memory is faulty, and you’re demonstrating massive confirmation bias and selective memory? Remember, we are all prone to it. The difference between skeptics and someone like you is that skeptics know they are prone to such cognitive shortcomings and try to guard against it.
“I vaccinate none of my patients against rubella unless they have very unusual travel plans. Rubella no longer poses a threat to American women and children. The CDC declared this over five years ago.”
Welcome to the 21st centurty Dr. Gordon. Let’s be as straightforward as possible:
Air travel works on a two-way basis. Inbound passenger contagious with Rubella + unvaccinated persons = increased risk of infection/outbreak.
Since you seem to trust the CDC declaration, would you please explain the CDC’s actual recommendation for Rubella vaccination? Does not vaccinating support the reduced threat of Rubella, or erode it?
Dr. Gordon,
Let’s start with this quote:
That quote is from the link you provided in your previous post, Jay. The second paragraph of the article, in fact. And I’m sure, as a doctor, you realize why that’s true, correct?
Well, do you? And please don’t tell me it’s part of the CDC’s grand “vaccine global conspiracy”.
Now to the rest of your post:
Again, this is an astonishingly breathtaking statement – that you’ve seen temporal relationship between the onset of autistic behaviors and vaccinations. And it must be in a statistically significant percentage of your patients (i.e., more than you’d expect by chance) for you to keep bringing it up.
So why isn’t this information, which completely changes the way everyone thinks of the autism/vaccine debate, published in a credible medical journal?
Why haven’t these other doctors you cite published their findings anywhere?
And please don’t give me the usual excuses about “not having time” or that not being your focus. If what you’re saying is true, you have a responsibility to make that information available to the broader medical community.
When you just say it’s true and don’t bother to back up the assertion with evidence, you just look like another quack shouting in the wind.
Jay said: “I would like to see unedited tape, too. I’ll take a try this weekend but I doubt they’ll release it because now they have me looking foolish and the unedited version will make them look unethical. Which choice do you think they’ll make?”
Such outcomes are not mutually exclusive. Regardless of what an unedited tape shows, Jay will still look foolish, as he does here, on his website and in other venues.
As an aside, from my own experience in a previous life working as a reporter, I know it’s not unusual for people after an interview to react with “My God, I didn’t say (can’t believe I said) that!” I had cases where interviewees flat-out lied about comments they’d made to me. Just recently we had golf reporter Jim Gray furious at Corey Pavin after Pavin was quoted as saying that Tiger Woods would be invited onto the Ryder Cup team, then later denying that he’d said it. My strong suspicion in that case is that Pavin realized he’d take flak for announcing the decision prematurely and took refuge in the “he misquoted me” gambit.
Jay’s ever-changing stories do not promote confidence in his version(s) of the truth.
As of January 2010, the CDC is still recommending a first Measles Mumps Rubella vaccination no sooner than 12 months old with a booster at 4-6 years of age.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5851a6.htm?s_cid=mm5851a6_e
Adult vaccinations are not recommended unless they lack evidence of immunity (vaccination or prior infection) or have other medical, lifestyle or occupational risk factors.
Vaccinations for younger adults (less than 50) like child vaccinations are covered under the VICP.
Dr. Jay:
Does this mean you have never used the MMR vaccine in your office? Since Merck no longer provides single vaccines, do you also deny children protection from measles and mumps?
Have you heard of this really great invention called air travel? It means that someone can go quickly from one part of the world to the next! Diseases can also travel.
Jay Gordon – where do you want us to deliver that backhoe?
This reminds me of the plaintiffs in the Vaccine Court Autism Omnibus case who presented before and after video evidence to support such a claim. The before vaccination video clearly showed signs of autism. This clearly indicates the ability of people to fool themselves.
Also doesn’t Jay realize that parents transferring to his practice amounts to huge selection bias? His total lack of a basic understanding of statistics and science is appalling.
@Dr. Jay
I am rather surprised and, frankly, disturbed that you do not vaccinate any of your patients against rubella. You certainly must be aware that rubella is a cause of autism, right? I mean, among the other nasty things that can result from rubella infection during pregnancy. As other have pointed out, even if your patient is not planning on traveling anywhere that rubella is a risk, the wonders of modern technology mean that rubella may come to them.
Further, if rubella were absolutely not a risk to Americans, why, do you think, the CDC would still recommend vaccination against it? I really am curious, Dr. Jay, why you would put children at increased risk of CRS.
The CDC warns in the 2010 Yellow Book that all unimmune international travellers are at risk of contracting measles, mumps, and rubella, regardless of where they travel. The link is to the page on measles, but the next page is mumps, and rubella is easily located. The CDC does not say that immunization is advised *only* in the case of “very unusual travel plans”. But of course, wise Dr. Gordon knows better.
Incidentally, does anyone know what age range the good doctor treats? I couldn’t find that information with a google search. I’ve been assuming he was like my pediatrician when I was a child, who treated patients pretty much up to puberty. But if the good doctor is just a baby doc, maybe the children go on to other doctors before suffering too many years of risk.
Actually Penn DID go to clown school…
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/whooping-cough-strain-now-immune-to-vaccine/story-e6freuy9-1225828959714
“THE bacteria that causes whooping cough has mutated, eroding the protection provided by the vaccine now given to children, scientists warned yesterday.”
Vaccine fail! Again.
Also could anyone give the vaccination status in the media sensation of california whooping cough? Were the parents vaccinated previously? Were the siblings? The babies COULDN”T get vaccinated, so that wouldn’t support the vaccine compliance agenda. How many vaccinating adults are protected? What is the effectiveness of DTaP? What is heard immunity levels for pertussis?
@Orac “Shortly” as in within days or a week or two. That could have been clearer, I agree.
@Toad Nice username, Toad. I do not trust the CDC completely. I just wanted to point out that they declared the rubella eradicated in the USA. Once a disease is that rare–close to zero cases, actually–one must turn one’s attention to possible known side effects, albeit very rare side effects. Rubella vaccination in American meets that model.
@a-non Nothing I have said about my experiences rises to the level of statistical significance, nor have I aggregated my anecdotal experiences into an organized set of data. I am merely contributing my experiences as a part of this experience. My experiences certainly do not negate the RCT studies but I continue to aver that even with conformation bias, Dave, and what you term “selective memory”–not saying you’re wrong, by the way!–my collection of anecdotes is a valuable part of the debate. Ignore them if you choose: Read other people’s posts and not mine. And, no, I have neither the time, expertise nor desire to try to collect these anecdotes and to publish, a-non. Can you imagine the opprobrium that would be heaped upon me?! Actually, I think it would be irresponsible to do that just as I think that “one-size-fits-all” is irresponsible vaccination policy. There are children, families, countries where the risk/benefit analysis argues strongly in favor of the present immunization routine.
@Dangerous Bacon Nice to see you, old friend. No, in this case it’s not a reporter’s notebook or their word against mine. If the raw footage is released, you’ll see it was edited to change the sense of what I said and in at least one segment, to reverse the meaning of the entire conversation.
@Chris Actually, there have been children in my office who received the MMR. Their special circumstances or their parents very strong wishes easily superseded my wish to withhold the shot. I’d guess this happens once or twice/year.
@Militant Agnostic By the way, were you part of the group who threw Richard Dawkins under the bus? I understand science and statistics very well, thank you. I am aware that an attorney might ponder why there seem to be so many criminals in this world . . . I do not claim statistical significance, lack of bias or the ability to quantify and publish. I merely claim to be in possession of lots of experience and years of observation. (Oh God, there I go again!)
@Zoe Yes, I knew that. They are actually very clever. I respect their success but they made a mistake handling this episode the way they might have previously handled the episodes entitled “Talking to the Dead,” “Alien Abductions,” “Sex, Sex, Sex,” “Ouija Boards,” and other frivolous topics. They are most definitely not qualified to present this issue and they failed miserably.
Best,
Jay
“I do not trust the CDC completely. I just wanted to point out that they declared the rubella eradicated in the USA.”
So, I’ll ask again Dr. Gordon. Please try to answer the actual question. Does not vaccinating support the reduced threat of Rubella, or erode it?
What evidence, Dr. Jay, do you have to withhold the MMR? Why should parents have to have strong feelings about it?
Did you vaccinate with the MMR thirty years ago? (next year it will have been in use for forty years) Or did you decide to believe Wakefield’s fraudulent research?
Is this reluctance to vaccinate part of a plan to get more paid hours by treating sick children?
Jay: “Actually, there have been children in my office who received the MMR. Their special circumstances or their parents very strong wishes easily superseded my wish to withhold the shot. I’d guess this happens once or twice/year.”
Speaking of raw footage, I wish we had video of concerned parents with “very strong wishes” having to talk Jay Gordon into following American Academy of Pediatrics and CDC guidelines and giving their children vaccines.
In this case, Jay is absolutely right about mommy warriors being a lot smarter than physicians.
I want everyone to read what Jay Gordon wrote in response to me.
Read it again.
Basically, what Jay Gordon is suggestion is that he might have evidence that our “one-size-fits-all” vaccination policy *is* a problem, yet doesn’t want to do the due dilligence necessary to provide that information to the public.
And do you know WHY he doesn’t want to share that information? Because he thinks he would be ridiculed. (which is what opprobrium means)
Is Jay suggesting that the mainstream medical establishment would ridicule him? If he put his findings in a decent medical journal and they held up to scrutiny, Dr. Gordon would be famous beyond measure. He would have been able to do what all of other purveyors of the autism-vaccine argument have never been able to do – put together research that actually suggests that there’s a possible connection between the two.
I certainly doubt that Generation Rescue would ridicule him. They’d be doing cartwheels over the fact that a real, valid paper actually made their case.
No, if I had to guess, I’d say that Jay isn’t willing to compile his findings because if he looked real hard at them he’d find out he was wrong. And once he realized he was wrong, he’d have to sort out in his own mind whether he wanted to be deliberately deceitful when it came to this topic.
Some folks in the anti-vax movement have already obliterated that bridge, but perhaps Jay Gordon hasn’t. As long as he doesn’t know for sure, he can sleep at night thinking that he’s doing the right thing by these kids. Moving the goalposts and suggesting that we need “more research” means that he can continue to mingle with the Generation Rescue celebrity crowd with a clear conscience while dissuading parents from vaccinating their children.
If it were me, and I was making the conscious decision to go against the recommendations of pretty much every mainstream medical organization, I’d want to make sure I was right. If not for the greater good, then at least for my own peace of mind.
[Is Jay suggesting that the mainstream medical establishment would ridicule him? If he put his findings in a decent medical journal and they held up to scrutiny, Dr. Gordon would be famous beyond measure.]
Just like Ignaz Semmelweis? Yes after his peers persecuted, belittled, and ridiculed him. And after he was dead. No matter how concrete his evidence is.
Actually I think it is because he gets more money from taking care of kids with pertussis, measles, influenza and mumps than he gets from giving vaccines. Just think about it. Sicker kids go to the doctor more, which means he makes more money.
He doesn’t take insurance, which have this nasty habit of trying to reduce paying out by pushing preventative medicine like vaccines. So if kids are sick, he gets billable hours.
I love you, a-non. You say what I’d say if I weren’t perpetually trapped in ScienceBlogs spam filter.
IP filter shenanigans. No one ever fixes.
I just watched the video.
The anti-vaxers are scary.
Re: Jay
There is also the fact that as of now, he can throw out the “It’s not clear so we can call it plausible” justification. If he tried to publish, and when it got rejected or filtered off into some low class hack journal, the gig would be up for good old Dr. J. He could no longer hide behind the pretense that he has a lot of quiet support among his peers. He would just be another failed quack.
And he knows it.
@Chris “Actually I think it is because he gets more money from taking care of kids with pertussis, measles, influenza and mumps than he gets from giving vaccines. Just think about it. Sicker kids go to the doctor more, which means he makes more money.”
You are too amazingly unintelligent and low-minded for anyone to take you seriously.. Please raise your hand if agree with this reprobate in his thoughts that my motivation for vaccinating sparingly involves my desire to take care of my sick or dying children.
In toto I believe I have seen 4-5 people with mumps in the past ten years, no children or adults with measles, a few cases of whooping cough each year and countless families with influenza, none of whom needed hospitalization or anything but supportive care.
There is far more money to be made selling and administering vaccines than treating illness. I can’t believe I deigned to answer a statement like yours, Chris. You’re an embarrassment to the panel of assembled scientists in this room.
Research and publication are full time jobs–ask Orac–and pediatricans in private practice can rarely pull this off. I include myself in that large group. I am a clinician who takes as much time as possible to write. I will participate in some reserach this year, but quite peripherally.
@a-non and @Bacon Parents have the right to ask for or demand vaccines. Also, special circumstances dictate a deviation from what I would do with the majority of my kids and families. That’s an easy concept and pretending you don’t “get it” is disingenuous.
By the way, if we blame Jenny for measles, can I blame you for this?
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/lucknow/4-Kids-Die-After-Vaccination/articleshow/6390002.cms
No, I’m a scientist and I know better than to blame the “one size fits all” camp for this aberration.
Have a very nice Sunday,
Jay
Too many typos! I’ll try one more time.
J
@Chris “Actually I think it is because he gets more money from taking care of kids with pertussis, measles, influenza and mumps than he gets from giving vaccines. Just think about it. Sicker kids go to the doctor more, which means he makes more money.”
You are too amazingly unintelligent and low-minded for anyone to take you seriously.. Please raise your hand if you agree with this reprobate in his thoughts that my motivation for vaccinating sparingly involves my desire to take care of my sick or dying children.
In toto I believe I have seen 4-5 people with mumps in the past ten years, no children or adults with measles, a few cases of whooping cough each year and countless families with influenza, none of whom needed hospitalization or anything but supportive care.
There is far more money to be made selling and administering vaccines than treating illness. I can’t believe I deigned to answer a statement like yours, Chris. You’re an embarrassment to the panel of assembled scientists in this room.
Research and publication are full time jobs–ask Orac–and pediatricians in private practice can rarely pull this off. I include myself in that large group. I am a clinician who takes as much time as possible to write. I will participate in some reserach this year, but quite peripherally.
@a-non and @Bacon Parents have the right to ask for or demand vaccines. Also, special circumstances dictate a deviation from what I would do with the majority of my kids and families. That’s an easy concept and pretending you don’t “get it” is disingenuous.
By the way, if we blame Jenny for measles, can I blame you for this?
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/lucknow/4-Kids-Die-After-Vaccination/articleshow/6390002.cms
No, I’m a scientist and I know better than to blame the “one size fits all” camp for this aberration.
Have a very nice Sunday,
Jay
Why, no, Dr Jay, you can’t blame the vaccines for that WITHOUT PROOF THE VACCINES WERE THE CAUSE!! You don’t know the children’s prior health, you don’t know if the vaccines were the cause, you don’t know if the Vitamin A drops may have been the cause. So, again, you can’t blame the vaccines until you know they are the cause.
Next question?
Which vaccines were they? Were they properly stored, transported, administered? How old were the children? Do they know that the vaccines themselves were the cause?
@Dr. Jay
MI Dawn and Toad already hit some good points. It is impossible to determine from that news article what was the cause of death. The implication is that it was the vaccine, since that is the prominent factor. Some other underlying medical condition in those children could be a factor. There could have been some physical injury before or shortly after the vaccine was administered. The children may have ingested some sort of poisonous material. The vaccines may have been stored improperly and consequently become contaminated with bacteria or fungus.
And, yes, it is possible that the vaccines, in proper condition, did cause the four deaths. However, without further information and investigation, we cannot conclude that the vaccines were to blame.
@Everyone else
Did anyone else notice that Meryl Dorey plastered some…ahem…inaccurate info in the comments on the article Jay linked to?
Jay says: “I am a scientist”.
Um, no, Jay. You have contempt for science, remember? Your experience countermands the scientific basis of medicine. Remember, you said in a previous post:
“Your persistence in making “science” sound like a monolithic way of doing things makes you sound less intelligent than most of you probably are.”
Before Jay gets on another high horse about his remarks being taken out of context, it’s quite likely that Jay does respect science – those parts of it that conform to his personal prejudices and fit with his practice model.
As to Jay’s vaccines-cause-death link, an even worse hazard for children has been making the news lately – pediatricians. There’s that pediatrician in Delaware indicted on 103 counts of child molestation. And here’s a horrific story about a pediatrician charged in a fatal child beating.
By Jay Gordon’s cherry-picking logic, it’s unsafe for children to be anywhere near a pediatrician.
This link from the same source, which is cross-linked from Dr Jay’s link (at least for now) states the children were given measles, BCG, and Hepatitis B vaccinations as well as the Vitamin A drops.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/lucknow/Four-children-die-allegedly-after-being-vaccinated-/articleshow/6388110.cms
It notes that:
“The government has ordered an inquiry into the incident and more information would be known only later.”
Since there were similar incidents at three other sites, the results of that inquiry should be very interesting.
@Dangerous Pork Product I agree: Pediatricians’ offices are usually filled with sneezing children. Stay away when you can.
Scientific facts and knowledge are interpreted differently by different–honorable–people. I count most of you among these scientists of honor. Then, of course, there are the illogical members of this site.
Jay
Reducing yourself to infantile derogating of someone’s username? How honourable.
Spoken like a true demagogue. There is only so much interpretation that the scientific consensus lends itself to. Of course, one can cherry-pick to suit one’s own confirmation biases can’t they?
Jay
Jay, what’s wrong? You’re engaging in so much veiled insult and condescension. It’s rather out of character for you, especially considering how much you complain about it when other people insult you in some manner.
Suffice to say, Jay, your attempt to say, “See! Vaccines iz teh eeevil!” has fallen flat. You jumped the gun, making baseless assumptions from limited information. It is that kind of thinking that gets you ridiculed time after time.
We get it. You don’t like vaccines. You waste no opportunity to denigrate vaccines, which just makes your protestations that you are not “anti-vaccine” ring all the more hollow.
Let’s get some things answered, straight out, if you can manage to not waffle and equivocate.
* What is your recommendation to parents who inquire about chelation as a treatment for their autistic child?
* What is your recommendation to parents who inquire about testing their child for mercury as a cause of autism?
* What is your recommendation to parents who inquire about the risks of not vaccinating their child?
We’ll just keep it to those three, for starters. Now, we have you claiming that you are a scientist, so please also provide the scientific basis for your recommendations.
Quoth “Dr. Jay”:
True enough. There are also interpreted “differently” by people who are impaired by received dogma, by those who are ignorant and by those who simply don’t understand.
Being “honorable” or even well-intentioned does not prevent someone from being wrong.
“Dr. Jay” looks at the lack of data showing an association between autism and vaccines and at the studies that have failed to show said association and “interprets” the data to mean the exact opposite of what researchers in the field have concluded.
There are two possible interpretations to this data:
[1] “Dr. Jay” knows more – based on his 30 years of experience as a general pediatrician – than dozens of people who research autism.
[2] “Dr. Jay” is suffering from the arrogance of ignorance.
There may be other interpretations that “honorable” people may draw from these data, but these are the two I’ve come up with.
Prometheus
Going for 300.
@Dangerous Bacon Sincere apologies for not taking your username seriously. (Same to you Toad)
@Todd W Chelation is a decades-old treatment for metal poisoning and if one believes that high levels of metals are causing a problem like autism it might be a reasonable treatment. As we all know, there was one reported disaster when the wrong chelation solution was used in a child with autism. I neither do chelation therapy nor am an expert. The science, however, is sound and the therapy is used in both pediatric and adult hospitals worldwide for poisoning from mercury, iron, uranium, arsenic and other metals. It has never been approved for the treatment of autism.
Mercury I tell parents that I no longer completely trust mercury testing from certain labs because the high numbers used after “provocation” are then placed against a scale derived from non-provoked values. On the other hand, if no provocation is done, I think that testing for mercury is useful especially if it discourages people from eating certain fish. I believe that high Hg levels may contribute to autism but I doubt you think there’s been sufficient proof. I think there is easily enough evidence that mercury in vaccines is harmful in some way–official bodies have agreed–and it was removed from most shots over a decade ago for this reason. Poisoning has been proven to cause fatalities. This, of course, was disastrously shown at Minamata, by Karen Wetterhahn’s unfortunate death and elsewhere.
http://dujs.dartmouth.edu/spring-2008-10th-anniversary-edition/remembering-karen-wetterhahn
I tell parents that non-vaccinating increases the risk of contracting the diseases against which we could vaccinate. I tell them that in the case of pertussis, this is a very real risk but that the statistics about virtually every other vaccinable disease would show that the risk is extraordinarily small. I tell them that I take public health issues into consideration as should they but that my primary concern during their child’s office time is his or her individual health and that the current vaccination schedule is not safe enough. I also tell them that loud injudicious statements about vaccines being ineffective and extremely dangerous are irresponsible and inaccurate. If I have been guilty of that in the past I regret it.
The scientific basis for all three of those answers is just as available to you on various search engines as it is to me.
Best,
Jay
Science Mommy:
“Reducing yourself to infantile derogating of someone’s username? How honourable.”
Stop clutching your pearls, mommy. It is perfectly consistent with the modus operandi of science blog regulars. Don’t act like your fellow vaccine coercion groupies don’t do it.
Prometheus, I thank you for your comments. During my time here with you and Orac and the rest, I have learned to speak more quietly because, while I personally don’t like the current vaccine schedule and have witnessed correlation between vaccines and autism, I can’t prove causation. Just correlation. The two are not the same and for me to state otherwise is unscientific.
Being “honorable” or even well-intentioned does not prevent someone from being wrong.
I’m afraid your statement might apply to both of us, Prometheus.
Jay
Just out of curiousity, Dr. Gordon, what are your thoughts and recommendations on acetaminophen use in the perivaccination period?
Do you ever wonder if perhaps the 1987 ACIP recommendations on acetaminophen prophylaxis before DTP immunization might possibly have anything to do with the upsurge in autism?
Quite correct. Vaccinations work. When you were pracising, say 20 years ago, could you have made the same statements?
Utter bollocks. Liar. Paid American Peaditrician – by the hour, by the treatment, by the illness. You’re a disgrace to the medical profession.
And Penn and Teller got you exactly right.
Err no, no you haven’t. There isn’t any. As you should well know. Money. money, money, that’s all your medical degree is to you, isn’t it, Dr Jay?
Jay says: “Chelation is a decades-old treatment for metal poisoning and if one believes that high levels of metals are causing a problem like autism it might be a reasonable treatment.”
Another classic example of Jay straddling the line and trying to be all things to all people.
What’s your evidence that 1) “high levels of metals” are causing autism, 2) the treatments used by chelation enthusiasts are dropping any such levels into normal ranges, and 3) that autistic children are improving as a result? The search engines don’t provide me with such evidence, so please enlighten me as to what you may have found. And while you’re at it, please show us how you’ve deduced that routine immunization for flu is tantamount to causing Minamata disease.
“I tell parents that non-vaccinating increases the risk of contracting the diseases against which we could vaccinate. I tell them that in the case of pertussis, this is a very real risk but that the statistics about virtually every other vaccinable disease would show that the risk is extraordinarily small.”
Do you also tell parents that since the risk of contracting trichinosis from infected pork is extraordinarily small, we should stop enforcing regulations on the raising of pork and processing of meat? Since severe hotel/motel fires are a rarity, do you recommend canceling all the applicable fire codes and having sprinklers taken out of places providing public lodging?
Do any of your scientific sources reassure you that we can stop immunizing kids against infectious diseases and not have to be concerned that those diseases will resurface and no longer be “extraordinarily rare”?
Prometheus suggests that you may be suffering from the arrogance of ignorance. Since you obviously know better, plain old arrogance seems to be the case.
By the way, have fun playing games with my username all you like. It doesn’t matter to me if you “take it seriously”.* What does matter is taking your patients’ health and public health seriously, something you’re not doing.
*since you’ve been happily exchanging insults with various posters here, could we have a brief moratorium on outraged pronouncements about how badly you are treated when you’re just trying to having respectful conversations? Thanks.
Uh, Jay – re: rubella – my MMR vaccine most likely saved my daughter from a lifetime of mental retardation after my idiotic SIL saw fit to bring her rubella-infected child to a family Christmas celebration when I was in my first trimester.
If you are discouraging people from vaccinating themselves and their children against rubella, well, I sure hope you’ve got good malpractice insurance. I guarantee you, if my SIL’s actions had impacted my child, I would’ve taken her – and whatever moron gave her that advice – for everything she had.
@Dr. Jay
Thank you for not answering my questions in a straightforward manner.
* What is your recommendation to parents who inquire about chelation as a treatment for their autistic child?
Your response was to discuss what chelation is and what it is used for. You failed to specify what you recommend to parents who inquire about chelation for their child.
* What is your recommendation to parents who inquire about testing their child for mercury as a cause of autism?
You said that you do not trust certain labs, but that you think it may be worthwhile checking for mercury as a cause of autism. So, if someone comes in asking whether they should test for mercury or not, what will you say? Also, since you brought it up, which labs do you trust and which do you not trust?
* What is your recommendation to parents who inquire about the risks of not vaccinating their child?
You said, in part:
Based on this, am I right in assuming that you also tell them about the effects of herd immunity and how their decision to vaccinate or not affects herd immunity? You said you would discuss the increased risk of infection, yet you failed to state what you recommend to your patients.
Ah, so you scare them away from vaccinating. Please define for us what constitutes a “safe enough” vaccine schedule, and upon what you base this definition.
No dice, Jay. I can search about all I wish, but that will not tell me which sources you are using. Now, kindly provide the scientific evidence that you are using as the basis for your answers (or non-answers, as the case may be).
I also seem to recall that you still have not, despite many, many months since I first asked, provided the scientific evidence that any vaccine schedule you suggest is actually safe.
Minamata disease is caused by poisoning with METHYL mercury. Vaccines contain minute doses of ETHYL mercury. That initial M makes a surprising amount of difference. Readers may be acquainted with the poisonous properties of wood alcohol (METHYL alcohol) which are somewhat different from the effects of grain alcohol (ETHYL alcohol). Hint: Â METHYL alcohol will kill you if a small quantity is consumed (just four ounces will do it) whereas ETHYL alcohol is the active ingredient in wine. Comparing minamata disease to the effects of a vaccination is like comparing the effects of a shot-glass of wood alcohol to those of one drop of wine dropped in glass of water. It is absurd, dishonest, and insulting to the intelligence of the readers of this blog. Directing patients to the disaster at Minamata to instruct them in the perils of vaccines is obscene.Â
Karen Wetterhahn was a real scientist doing real research to find real knowledge about metal poisoning. She was accidentally exposed to a lethal dose of DIMETHYL mercury. Note that DIMETHYL is different from ETHYL. Dragging the tragic death of a scientist, who was trying to improve medicine, into the mud of a senseless campaign against vaccination is beyond obscene. It is vile.Â
Of course, in addition, a little googling will allow anyone who’s actually interested in the facts to learn the symptoms suffered by the Minamata victims and by Dr. Wetterhahn do not remotely resemble autism. Â So there’s no actual reason to bring them up, except to dishonestly frighten people about the effects of “mercury”. Which is about as honest as illustrating the dangers of table salt by pointing to the use of chlorine gas in World War I. Â Chlorine is chlorine, right? Â Â
I am appalled by Dr. Gordon’s comment, but not surprised.
Dangerous Bacon responds to “Dr. Jay”:
I must disagree.
“Dr. Jay” has not received any scientific education or training outside of what he might have received as a university undergraduate or in medical school. As someone with experience teaching both undergraduates and medical students, I can attest that they whilst they learn a great many facts (especially the medical students) about science, they do not learn much about how science is done. This was even more the case back when “Dr. Jay” was in school.
And if “Dr. Jay” claims that he has educated himself in the sciences….well, his performance speaks volumes about the skill of his teacher.
As a result, “Dr. Jay” is ignorant of how science is done (as he has demonstrated repeatedly on this very ‘blog) and believes – because of his ignorance – that his recollections of “correlation” (which would be more accurately termed “coincidence”) somehow counter all of the well-designed studies that have failed to find a correlation between vaccination and autism. If “Dr. Jay” were a scientist (as he claims), he would realise that his recollections of children becoming autistic after vaccination do not even rise to the level of anecdote, being more on the level of mythic legend or folk tale.
I have tried – on numerous occasions – to explain to “Dr. Jay” that his “vast clinical experience” won’t be anecdotal data unless and until he goes through his records and compiles the dates of vaccination, dates of autism diagnosis etc. The fact that he willfully refuses to learn does not mean that he is not ignorant.
Thus, he fits the definition of “arrogance of ignorance”.
His ignorance of science doesn’t necessarily make “Dr. Jay” a bad paediatrician – there are many, many excellent physicians who are as ignorant of scientific method as he is. However, he is an extremely poor scientist, and he should stop pretending to be one.
Respectfully,
Prometheus
Dr. Gordon opines that high mercury levels contribute to autism. I wonder what basis he has, then, for denying children the protection of the MMR vaccine. I believe he’s been advised, on this blog if nowhere else, that the MMR vaccine does not contain Thimerosal, has never contained Thimerosal, and *cannot* ever contain Thimerosal because it is a live virus vaccine, and Thimerosal would destroy its effectiveness.
Err no, no you haven’t. There isn’t any. As you should well know. Money. money, money, that’s all your medical degree is to you, isn’t it, Dr Jay?
Utter bollocks. Liar. Paid American Peaditrician – by the hour, by the treatment, by the illness. You’re a disgrace to the medical profession. And Penn and Teller got you exactly right.
Finally!! AnthonyK has figured me out. I looked at all the various medical specialties and said, “No general surgery, dermatology or plastics for me! I’m going into pediatrics where the real money is.” Then, I figured out, “I won’t sell vaccines to my patients, I’ll just let them get small pox and measles so I can make my fortune treating these illnesses.”
Incredible, sir! I’ve been undone.
————————–
@ToddW May I also say that you’ve frightened me with your threats. My secret? The Google and the PubMed. Look up whatever you want. You can find facts and literature to support any point of view voiced in the previous 272 posts. Anything. Again: http://www.google.com or http://www.pubmed.com and you can proceed from there.
@LW Are you new here?
@Prometheus One of those few here who I respect inspite of our huge differences of opinion. Yes, I am a far better clinician than a researcher. But, when you look up “scientist” the first citation is “a person with advanced knowledge of one or more sciences.” That’s me, regarding pediatrics and that’s you regarding your specialty. Cross over discussions are less fruitful because I can never hope to know your discipline as well as you do and I doubt you know the practice of pediatrics as well as I do. Not arrogance. Just a fact.
If one believed autism was caused by demonic possession then exorcism might be a reasonable treatment.
If one believed that an autistic child was a “changeling” then Ordeal by Foxglove (giving the child a large does of digitalis and leaving them outside overnight) might be a reasonable treatment.
The evidence that autism is not mercury poisoning is overwhelming.
Jay says
Try using Google Scholar instead for starters to exercise a little quality control. It will at least filter out the David Icke type sources. You are apparently confusing assertions by cranks with “facts”. Your argument is identical to that used by AGW denialists and HIV denialists. AGW denialists will dig up one contrarian climate scientist who doubts the consensus or one cherry picked picked piece of dubious data and claim that this outweighs the overwhelming consensus of the experts and the vast amount of evidence in support of AGW.
We are used to anti-vax whackaloons supporting their “point of view” with pubmed citations to literature that actually contradicts their point of view. i.e. a member of the Mercury Militia will do a pubmed search using “mercury” & “autism” and then post a link to paper which shows there is no link between mercury and autism.
@Jay
Hahaha. That’s funny, Dr. Jay. I assume you can point out where I have made a threat?
Ugh! Let me put this simply, Dr. Jay. I am not psychic. No amount of my searching Google or PubMed or any other site, library or whatever will inform me of which sources you are using to support your position. And I will not deny that you can find opinions and literature to support any point of view voiced in this thread. I would argue that you cannot necessarily find facts (you know, truth, reality) that support certain views, but I’m willing to be shown differently.
Now that you have sidestepped actually answering my questions, again, Dr. Jay, I guess I need to ask once more. Please provide the scientific sources that you use to support your recommendations. Oh, and please actually say what your recommendations are, since you still haven’t done that, either. And remember, I’m not psychic. I want to know what you use.
No, Dr. Gordon, I’m not new. If I were new, I would have been surprised by your comment. Good of you, though, not to respond to my question about the MMR nor to defend your citing of minamata disease and Dr. Wetterhahn’s tragic fate to try to discourage vaccination.
I can believe Jay uses Google and PubMed as his sources. I mean, it’s not like he doesn’t know the scientific consensus on vaccines. He freely admits that his views are inconsistent with the consensus of ythe scientific community. He could very well be learning the consensus of the scientific community by reading the literature.
He then subsequently ignores it, opting instead to rey on his super special own brand of science, which he learns from his 30 years of clinical experience and reinforces through google.
How can you be the Maverick Doctor who Bucks the Establishment if you don’t keep tabs on the establishment?
Ironically, this might well be true. Even with deliberately leaving patients vulnerable to deadly diseases for absolutely no justifiable reason.
After all, simple incompetence is “far better” than gross incompetence from a certain point of view.
My guess is there’s a google-antischolar function hidden somewhere, where you can filter search results for anything published in recognized journals or referenced in pubmed. Probably used the impact factor as secondary exclusion.
mercury&autism -pubmed -IF>2
Another thought on “unusual travel plans”: you’re also exposed to everyone who makes a connection at the same airport (you both stop for a burger, say, and sit near each other for a bit). One person flies from Africa to Montreal; they sit near me for a while, and then I fly to New York. Also, I took the Metro and a bus to the Montreal airport, and rode a crowded subway this morning. As far as I know, I’m not carrying anything contagious, but the whole point is that people often don’t know.
Remember SARS? There were warnings based on any travel to or from two of the largest cities in North America.
For some conditions, it should probably be the other way around: vaccinate unless you and your social circle, including coworkers and anyone who shops where you do, are unusually insular.
Not this nonsense again!
No, Dr. Jay. As we have discussed numerous times going back years, you are not a scientist. You have proven conclusively that you are not a scientist time and time again with your preferring anecdotes over epidemiology and clinical trials, your complete inability to recognize your own cognitive shortcomings (shared with all humans) of confirmation bias and confusing correlation with causation, and your repeated flagrant misinterpretation of scientific evidence and inability to accept that uncontrolled anecdotal evidence can very easily mislead even smart people if they don’t know why anecdotes so easily mislead–which you clearly don’t–particularly if you’re seeing only a small piece of the picture. Given that you’ve become the antivax-sympathetic pediatrician to the stars and woo-friendly Southern California clientele, you’re attracting parents to you who believe that vaccines caused their children’s autism, giving you a skewed picture from the get-go.
Please stop claiming to be a scientist. You are not one. I’m sorry if it hurts your feelings when this is pointed out, but just because you might not be happy about it is not a reason not to correct you when you make claims of expertise that are clearly unjustified. No, no, don’t pout. Learn from this. Learn why the way you look at evidence is not scientific. Learn about the cognitive quirks all humans share that lead us astray and how the scientific method can be used to minimize their effects on coming to conclusions. In short, learn the scientific method and the science–and not from AoA or the other anti-vaxers with whom you hang out. Learn it from real scientists.
@ 226 Dr. Gordon,
Who is suggesting that vaccines are as safe as they possibly could be?
Nothing is completely safe. Exposing people to significant risks, just to protect against an insignificant, or imaginary, risk is a mistake.
We do know a lot about vaccine safety. One thing that we do know is that there is no good reason to believe that vaccines cause autism. Since there is no good reason to believe that vaccines cause autism, we should not continue to spend time on this thoroughly investigated and discredited hypothesis.
The continued assertion that vaccines cause autism is bad for vaccine safety and bad for understanding autism. Since there is no good evidence that vaccines cause autism, in spite of a lot of research looking for this connection, continuing to claim that vaccines cause autism, is just denying reality.
The resources available to study ways of improving vaccine safety are limited, so diverting time, money, and people to denying reality is a bad thing. The same is true of autism – diverting resources from research that may be productive is harmful to those with autism.
Your claims are unsupportable.
Autism research, just as any other medical condition, does not get as much funding as it should. Your claims discourage autism research.
Who wants to give money to fund research, when the people calling for the research are loudly stating that they do not understand research? As long as the focus is on vaccines causing autism, you are discouraging autism research.
There probably is a better schedule for giving vaccines. I doubt that the current schedule is perfect.
That does not mean that any modified schedule, based on the faulty presumption that vaccines cause autism, is even close to being as good as the current schedule.
Using a discredited explanation to modify a science-based schedule is a bad idea.
And that is a gigantic faulty assumption.
If vaccines did contribute to large problems in children, the research by the many different organizations would have found something. The many different studies did not find any such contribution.
–
You started commenting to state that you are not anti-vaccine. You follow that with comments showing that you do not look at vaccination objectively.
You approach vaccines as if they are harmful.
You repeatedly show that you approach vaccination with a very strong bias, even though there is plenty of well done research showing that vaccines do not contribute to large problems in children.
This is one of the purposes of research – to eliminate, as much as possible – the influence of any kind of bias.
Denying the validity of this research, in favor of what feels right, is denying reality.
.
I’m eyerolling at the complete ignorance of why we consider science important. Here’s the situtation:
Skeptics: Science is based on the idea that everyone makes mistakes, so we have to guard against those mistakes. Being human, we’re particularly prone to certain kinds of mistakes like confirmation bias, etcetera. Because we’re all human, we have to do all sorts of things to avoid those mistakes.
Jay Gordon: No! I have gone beyond human limitations! I am a GOD! That’s why I can rely on anecdotes and my memory of them! I’m not like you puny mortals! I deserve to have my own brand of no-effort science because I am above you! I can’t make mistakes, therefore I should be able to skip all those hoops you want everyone to jump through!
@Jen in TX: Hi, Jen. I guess I didn’t realize that was a recommendation in 1987. I did pre-medicate my daughters before DPTs back in the late 80s and early 90s but I don’t recall what I used! IIRC, I had samples from our peds for Advil as well as Tylenol (I may have even had baby aspirin liquid).
Don’t know what Dr Jay will say; since he seems to advocate against vaccines in his office, he may not have an opinion. I’ll check back to see if he answers you.
Hope all is going well with you, you’ve been absent from the forums for a while and I’ve wondered if you were OK.
So I’m reading through the comments and I start picking up what appears to be the strong odor of dirty socks…possibly combined with alcohol drenched breath…
So do we have a major, in the words of DLC, sock puppet theater here? Is my sense of smell out of whack? I have been in the lab a lot lately. Style and rhetoric? Opinions?
Either way…
@ “augustine”
You should cut down drinking and/or over medicating before you drown in it jack.
@ Sauceress:
I’m wouldn’t go so far to say that augustine is a sockpuppet of Jay Gordon.
The former has a thing about equating philosophical skepticism with atheism, which Dr Gordon does not seem to share, at least not when be comments on this blog (I trust Dr Gordon will correct me if he does indeed have a thing for equating philosophical skepticism with atheism).
And distorting names for personal amusement is a widely practiced technique, hardly unique to trolls or pediatricians with objectionable standpoints on the present state of evidence on, say, vaccines (although the trolls, at least, are very quick off the mark with such behaviour if augustine is any guide).
I owe Sauceress my thanks for bringing this to my attention; I guess I just don’t notice you any more augie, like the droning of a clock. I’m not surprised that you need this to be explained to you but Dr. Jay is repeatedly complaining about how meeeeaaannnn we are and is supposed to be a professional (notice how he always signs off). And in the same breath, speaks of honour whilst denigrating someone’s username.
Hi Dawn,
I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting for an answer to my questions from Dr. Jay if I were you. He has ignored my questions to him about Tylenol in the past, and I fully expect that he’ll continue that trend.
(I’ve been hangin’ around, by the way, just not posting lately-busy with other things, but thanks for thinking of me.)
Acetaminophen interferes with vaccines’ effectiveness and is no longer recommended.
@ triskelethecat I don’t advocate against vaccines in my office, I exchange information with parents, and advocate strongly against the way vaccines are scheduled. Obviously, you know that I give fewer vaccines than most pediatricians do.
You guys are getting awfully repetitive up there. And, no, I will not do your Google and PubMed homework for you. I’m too busy working.
Let’s all stop at #300.
Jay
Hahahahahaha!
No, Dr. Jay. That juvenile trick won’t work. This is not our homework. It’s you that was called upon to do your work, by backing up the claims you yourself chose to make.
@Jay
Well, earlier you stated that you “vaccinate none of my patients against rubella unless they have very unusual travel plans” (emphasis yours), which means you also do not vaccinate against measles or mumps (since individual vaccines are no longer available), unless they have “unusual” travel plans. You tell parents that “the current vaccination schedule is not safe enough”. So far, that sounds an awful lot like you advocate against vaccines.
Okay, Dr. Jay, you owe me for the medical costs of getting my eyes back in place after they rolled skyward at this statement. Either you are really dense or you are intentionally avoiding providing your sources. My guess is the latter, as you probably do not have any sources to support your recommendations (which you still have not clearly stated).
Once again, Dr. Jay, we are not psychic. There maybe the emphasis will actually get you to read that this time. As I said before, we can go look around all we want at Google or PubMed or wherever else, but that (more emphasis for you) does not tell us which sources you are using. Is that clear? I’m not asking you to do my homework; I am asking you to show your work.
You see, it’s pretty simple. If we go out and find some article and list it here, asking if it was a source that you used because it seems to support your position, you can just say “Oh, no. I didn’t use that source”. Now, if you tell us what sources you used, then there is no guesswork.
Ahhh, I see. See, I thought, since, y’know, you’re a scientist and all, that you would actually have relatively easily to hand the scientific basis for your recommendations. I mean, I’m no scientist, but I’m at least willing to provide citations to support claims that I make. But I guess it works differently for scientists, huh?
A question to some of the other scientists here: do you generally provide citations for your arguments? I just want to make sure, since Dr. Jay seems to suggest that scientists don’t need to do that.
Did Dr. Jay actually pull the old “look it up for yourself” gambit? I can’t believe it. That’s about as pathetic as it gets, and I honestly wouldn’t have expected Dr. Jay to stoop that low.
@Orac
Yeah…I think he did. I can almost imagine the following conversation with the good doctor:
Dr. Jay: I have an invisible, fire-breathing dragon in my garage.
Average Joe: Uh, okay. What evidence do you have for that?
Dr. Jay: I’m not going to do your homework for you. You need to go find the evidence that there’s an invisible, fire-breathing dragon in my garage. I have work to do. [Exit SR]
You guys are getting awfully repetitive up there. And, no, I will not do your Google and PubMed homework for you. I’m too busy working.
Translation:
Science? What science? I’m supposed to bluff you into providing the studies. There must be evidence to prove that evidence is bad!!11!!?!!!
Just thought of a better analogy:
[Dr. Jay hands in his math homework with only the problems and some answers.]
Math Teacher: Jay, you need to show your work. How did you get these answers?
Dr. Jay: It’s in math books. Look it up.
[Math Teacher gives Dr. Jay a low score for failing to show his work, let alone getting the answers wrong.]
Jay says: “And, no, I will not do your Google and PubMed homework for you.”
Well, this is just unfair and mean. All those articles that would change our minds, and Jay won’t share. Beyond that, Jay refuses to pass on his own utterly convincing evidence. He’s got all that fantastic, tantalizing data supposedly backing up his antivax claims but that he won’t reveal to the public, as mentioned in his “open letter on vaccinations” that was making the rounds of antivax sites awhile back:
“I have watched children getting or not getting vaccines for thirty years. I wonât publish my data because I have none suitable for âpeer review.â I can tell you that my very strong impression is that children with the fewest vaccines, or no vaccines at all, get sick less frequently and are healthier in general. I truly believe they also develop less autism and other âpersistent developmental delays.â
As Steve Novella notes, Jay has a surprisingly negative view of science (for someone who calls himself a “scientist”).
“He reassures us that he has the data to back up his controversial claims, however. But nothing he can publish. Weâll just have to trust him. Notice the quotes around âpeer review.â What does that mean? Is he denigrating all peer-review? This is not surprising. He is telling the public not to listen to science. Do not listen to the consensus of scientific opinion built upon published âpeer-reviewedâ data. Listen to his âvery strong impressions.â Heâs the guru. He knows best.”
This is very typical behavior of alt med/woo enthusiasts in general when it comes to science. “Don’t believe it! Trust my anecdotes instead. Science is corrupt and crooked and wrong. Oh, and to prove my claims here’s an article I cherry-picked out of the Annals of Crockery. You can believe that science. But don’t trust the science that says I’m wrong.”
A suggestion – perhaps Jay can take the time he spends name-calling and obfuscating on message boards, and use that to compile his “data” into publishable form. Medical Hypotheses or the Journal of Irreproducible Results might take it, for a small fee.
Dangerous Bacon
You forgot about JPANDS where Shaken Baby Syndrome is considered to be a misdiagnoses of “Vaccine Injury”.
Perhaps Jay’s reluctance to provide links to his sources is because unlike the run of the mill antivax trolls we see here (who often do provide links when pressed), he is aware that they don’t support his conclusions.
WTF does Richard Dawkins have to do with anything?
I am the wrong person to play the experience card with. I got into my specialization of Pressure Transient Analysis (of oil & gas well tests) because very early in my career I discovered that what the engineers with 20 – 30 years experience were telling me was bullshit. They had memorized equations and techniques without understanding the theory and assumptions underlying them. One of my favorite lines from a movie comes from the The Flight of the Phoenix when the designer of the Phoenix (an airplane built from the wreckage of an airplane that has crashed in the desert) tells the pilot “you have experienced everything and learned nothing”.
Acetaminophen interferes with vaccines’ effectiveness and is no longer recommended.”
I can assure you that this practice is still occurring. Perhaps you could do more to spread the word? The overuse of acetaminophen is huge problem in this country, wouldn’t you agree?
Honestly, I had planned to quit at #300 but Militant Agnostic dragged me back for just one more. He/she says above:
“I am the wrong person to play the experience card with. I got into my specialization of Pressure Transient Analysis (of oil & gas well tests) because very early in my career I discovered that what the engineers with 20 – 30 years experience were telling me was bullshit. They had memorized equations and techniques without understanding the theory and assumptions underlying them.”
What a fantastic argument on “my” side! Above are a few dozen people who have never practiced medicine, a couple who have and no one besides me who has practiced pediatrics. Until you’ve cared for children for a long, long time, you’ll never really get it. The whole vaccine/autism issue will elude you. That’s OK: Talk about something else like the equations and techniques you’ve memorized and leave the real battleground to those of us who’ve been there for decades.
Thank you, Militant Agnostic.
Yes, acetaminophen use is a problem. Glutathione loss is dangerous for children with fragile hemoglobin syndrome, autism and other medical conditions.
Best,
Jay
Ah yes indeed. The only person here who makes money out of childhood diseases convinces himself that he has bested those who don’t – on the subject of vaccines!
And all because he said what he really thinks on Penn and Teller (did you think you’d look good on a programme called “Penn & Teller’s bullshit” – come to that, do your think you’re looking good here?)
Clearly, vanity vies with ignorance and greed to be Dr Jay’s
worst sin…
I am between jaunts while on vacation and noticed this was never answered by Dr. Jay:
And don’t even mention mercury!
Interesting how this all played out, while catching up on the comments I had a little jingle playing in my head.
I will still think Dr. Jay does it all for the $$$$ until he comes up with some answers on the order of these (and remember, there is always pertussis and some ugly article in Salon about an LA doctor rushing into a hospital to take care of a pediatric patient never vaccinated with the DTaP):
Economic Evaluation of the 7-Vaccine Routine Childhood Immunization Schedule in the United States, 2001
Zhou F, Santoli J, Messonnier ML, Yusuf HR, Shefer A, Chu SY, Rodewald L, Harpaz R.
Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005;159:1136-1144.
An economic analysis of the current universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccination program in the United States.
Zhou F, Reef S, Massoudi M, Papania MJ, Yusuf HR, Bardenheier B, Zimmerman L, McCauley MM.
J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S131-45.
Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.
Chavez GF, Ellis AA.
West J Med. 1996 Jul-Aug;165(1-2):20-5.
Measles epidemic from failure to immunize.
Dales LG, Kizer KW, Rutherford GW, Pertowski CA, Waterman SH, Woodford G.
West J Med. 1993 Oct;159(4):455-64.
So, until Dr. Jay responds with similar cites… we all know he will continue to refuse to practice preventative medicine to bolster his bottom line: because sick kids mean more cash!
The following quote from Jay’s site offers a resounding answer to that question…
http://drjaygordon.com/miscellaneous/autismone.html
#301 Jay Gordon
Yes yes yes Jay…so you endlessly repeat.
To wit..
Iâm not sure who invented the hierarchy which places anecdotal evidence at the bottom but I have invented a second hierarchy which places it higher. I have as much support for my hierarchy as you have for yours.
So it logically follows that you must have, surely after 30yrs, by now built up a solid detailed hypothesis outlining a proposed mechanism of action underpinning your continuing implication of vaccines in the onset of autism?
In the meantime, I’m sure “your” side will be reading the following news with the utmost satisfaction…
Medicos fear measles timebomb
By the way, (sorry for the triple posting…so little time…so much to say :p), militant agnostic’s comment/experience certainly doesn’t translate on to research in areas of biochemistry, molecular biology or pharmacology. If you’re not keeping up on the latest information combined with the exponentially evolving techniques and technology employed in these areas…forget it.
“What a fantastic argument on “my” side! Above are a few dozen people who have never practiced medicine, a couple who have and no one besides me who has practiced pediatrics. Until you’ve cared for children for a long, long time, you’ll never really get it. The whole vaccine/autism issue will elude you. That’s OK: Talk about something else like the equations and techniques you’ve memorized and leave the real battleground to those of us who’ve been there for decades.”
Those of us who work with Children know that when you see a Doctor stating this, you need to be afraid that some little guy is going to end up dead. You know, the kind of guy who sees “Little Adults”.
Arrrgh! “Medicos fear measles time bomb” was a wrong link.
I can’t seem to find the original link again…but here’s another on the same story.
Measles outbreak in northern NSW and Queensland
Of course if there were any anti-vaxxers in that McDonalds their psychic abilities would have warned them to keep their kids away from others after they had moved on from there.
Northern NSW being the AVN stronghold.
Silly Sauceress! Why are you worried about the Children?
Measles is only contagious in countries where it is endemic. Antivax parents need not worry about their children catching measles unless they have very unusual travel plans. And after all, once a disease is declared “not endemic” in a country, like Great Britain, we can all heave a sigh of relief and stop vaccinating, secure in the knowledge that the disease can never become established in that country agan.
Clearly this article is just fear-mongering to help greedy pediatricians make money by providing free vaccinations.
If I understand Dr. Jay correctly, he’s claiming the following is an argument for his side:
They had memorized equations and techniques without understanding the theory and assumptions underlying them.”
1) Understanding the theory of what you’re doing and the assumptions underlying that theory is better than merely having equations and techniques memorized.
2) (unstated premise)
3) Therefore, Dr. Jay’s 30 years of practicing pediatrics makes him more of an expert on anything to do with pediatrics than his critics and means he understands “the whole vaccine/autism issue” where it “eludes” his critics.
Apart from any other problems with the syllogism, the unstated premise must be either “One cannot practice pediatrics for 30 years without understanding the theory of what you’re doing and the assumptions behind it,” or “30 years of practicing pediatrics will give you an understanding of theory and its underpinnings.” Both these premises are easily disproven and Dr. Jay’s “fantastic argument” is, indeed, “fantastic.” In the “flight of fantasy” sense.
Not surprisingly, I interpret the facts a little differently. A few dozen people who have never practiced medicine, a couple who have, and they are the ones who have to teach the moron who has “cared for children for a long, long time” about vaccination.
Kind of like how the people here schooled you about chelation and the stimulated urine testing, right Jay? Apparently, all your experience didn’t help you in that regard, either.
BTW, how do you advise your patients these days when they tell you they want to do those procedures? For some reason, I’m guessing that despite the level to which your ignorant giraffe underoos were exposed, it hasn’t affected your practice one bit. Please tell me I am wrong…
It seems to have escaped your notice that you’re one of those who just memorize and apply without understanding. Given how many gross factual errors you make, any claims that you “get it” are laughable.
My cats “get it” better than you do. At least by the standard that they’re not implicitly advocating mass murder.
I asked my dad for his opinion a while back. He did pediatrics for at least as long as Dr Jay (though he was a family practice doc, and did more than just pediatrics). He thinks the vaccine-autism connection is complete and utter baloney. In addition to having his patients get vaccinated, he also personally vaccinated all of his children (including me). We do have learning disorders in the family, but they are pretty obviously family traits; you can see them even in the grandparents.
Experience is very valuable. But why restrict yourself to only your *own* experience, Dr Jay? The great and awesome thing about humans, which sets us apart from all other animals on Earth, is that we can share our experiences in a very deep way, that goes beyond teaching our offspring where to find water or how to fish for termites with a twig. We can share *abstractions*. Dr Jay, you are content to go with your own experience alone, but why limit yourself so? There are many thousands of other pediatricians in this country alone. You could benefit from their experience as well, thus transforming yourself from someone with 30 years experience to someone with the knowledge of centuries worth of experience. Granted, your approach is much more traditional. Go back a few hundred years, and professional knowledge was a tightly guarded secret handed down from father to son and master to apprentice, to protect the trade. But that seriously limited the potential for growth, because you could only learn from one person plus your own experience; by the modern model, you can learn from hundreds of people!
But then, if you are content with your business model as it stands today, perhaps you don’t have much incentive. Not all doctors are motivated to improve; many think they’ve already achieved perfection, or are content with their current level of expertise, or are simply not capable of advancing further. It may be a variant of the Peter Principle, only in a field where there is not much of a promotion ladder.
@Calli Arcale
Oh, but he doesn’t go by his experience alone. He also goes with the experience of the thousands of kids and families in his practice. Even though they “never practiced medicine [and have not] practiced pediatrics,” they, somehow, “really get it,” while we, being lowly skeptics, just don’t.
I mean, what do they do that we do not? Oh yeah, they keep themselves unaware of the current science. If only we did that, too, then we could be as fabulous and all-knowing as Dr. Jay himself!
Jay always reminds me of Steve Martin doing Theodoric of York on SNL
Jay Gordon of York: Medieval Barber
Hey, he’s a doctor with all that experience…
“Yes, acetaminophen use is a problem.”
How do you know that acetaminophen use isn’t the problem?
Again, I’ll point out that the ACIP recommended in 1987 that acetaminophen be used in tandem with DPT vaccinations for kids with a family history of seizures, based on one preliminary study. Subsequent studies have failed to find any benefit from this practice, and knowing what we know about the toxicity of acetaminophen, it is reckless and irresponsible for it to continue.
Since that time, we have seen a huge upswing in children with ASD (as well as asthma, eczema and allergies, which have also been linked to acetaminophen.) A recent paper shows an increase in AD cumulative incidence beginning 1988-1989, one year after that recommendation was made. Throw in the Reye’s Syndrome warning in the years prior to that, which virtually eliminated acetaminophen’s competitor, aspirin, the increase in the marketing of Tylenol after the tampering scares in 1982 and 1986, warnings on aspirin and ibuprofen use during pregnancy, the increase in the use (and abuse) of acetaminophen containing narcotics, widespread ignorance of the dangers of acetaminophen overuse, and why oh why are you still droning on about vaccines, when there are certainly much more harmful substances to be worried about here?
Jay says: “Until you’ve cared for children for a long, long time, you’ll never really get it. The whole vaccine/autism issue will elude you. That’s OK: Talk about something else like the equations and techniques you’ve memorized and leave the real battleground to those of us who’ve been there for decades.”
“Those of us” like the vast majority of pediatricians, whose training and personal experience have taught them the value of vaccination, who reject a false vaccine-autism connection and who keep their own children fully immunized?
Jay knows full well that’s he’s a fringe player out of touch with his own profession as well as its scientific basis. That’s why I can’t buy the “arrogance of ignorance” excuse.
Going back to the Penn & Teller video, I was struck the other day by how, as he ages, Jay Gordon is coming to resemble a better known medical outcast. Look at Jay in the video and compare him to this fellow and see what you think.
Separated at birth?
Come on, he even explicitly said so in the P&T show!
He knows damn well what the scientific consensus among his colleagues is, and denies it. And then claims that he has special insight because he is a doctor, and dismiss our opinions (which agree with the consensus of his colleagues) on the grounds that we are only peons.
Way to miss the point Jay – I learned that what I was being told by the experienced engineers was BS by reading the peer reviewed scientific papers and an SPE (Society of Petroleum Engineers) Monograph. The authors of these papers were well known names in the field of Pressure Transient Analysis and not fringe players.
Calli @313 The Soaring Association of Canada’s magazine used to publish incident and accident reports in a feature called Crocodile Corner – The name came from a quotation of an African Chief who said “We have seen others eaten by Crocodiles and have learned from their experience.” There is something to be said for broadening you experience base to include other people.
“How do you know that acetaminophen use isn’t the problem?”
Jen, I’ll go with that as evidence in need of investigation.
Good thought.
Jay
Oh, good. Dr. Jay’s still around. I was fearing that since we passed the 300 comment mark he wasn’t going to answer my questions.
So, Jay, how about it?
Since Dr. Jay’s still around, perhaps he’d be willing to answer some of these questions:
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2010/08/some_excellent_questions_for_reporters.php
After all, if we think that science and health reporters should be able to answer those questions, self-proclaimed “scientist” Dr. Jay ought to have no problem answering them.
Possibly the single best demonstration yet (which takes quite a bit of doing) that Jay hasn’t the faintest clue what the word “evidence” means.
He seems to have discarded the backhoe for digging himself in deeper, in favor of an oil-drilling rig.
Not-a-Scientologist-but is the world’s fastest growing religion.
Lot of good ideas in Dianetics, eh? And that psychiatry, man, is it bullshit or what?
Well, he never answered whether or not he gave the MMR willingly between starting practicing pediatrics up to almost twenty later when Wakefield had his self-serving press release (which misrepresented what his study was, and caused a furor over a vaccine he did not really study).
He really really needs to retire.
I’d prefer thrown in jail, but retire would do.
“We don’t need no steenkin’ evidence!”
Every year in Canada, a few doctors get called up before their licensing boards because they are deemed to lack sufficient up-to-date knowledge to practice medicine safely. Their defense sounds remarkably like the above paragraph.
I gave up trying to tell him to get some continuing medical education credits, especially after some recent Dr. Crislip writings on the CMEs with added quackery.
He did change his tone about HIV/AIDS after the death of child seen in his office. I just hope it does not happen to another one of his well-heeled patients before he understands how his stance on vaccines is so ridiculous.
#325
Chris
I’ve noticed Jay never answers any questions unless he thinks he can somehow thread an anti-vaxx sales pitch into his answer.
Why did they show a topless woman at the end?
@June
Almost every episode they do has some nudity in it. My guess is to appeal to the young male demographic. Also, they were driving home the point that one of the biggest voices of the current anti-vaccine movement is former Playboy model, Jenny McCarthy. So, they got their own Playboy model to tell people to vaccinate.
It doesn’t sound like Dr. Jay said half of a sentence before that quote.
If he DID say “I am not saying ___”, then the rest of his statement wouldn’t make any sense (“at odds…” and “flat out lie…”).
Sounds like he’s full of it.