Dr. Jay and argumentum ad bradi bunchium

I think the correct verb is Tweeting not Twittering, but don’t hold me to it.

I wonder how that Scientology thing –what was it, Organic Malaise or something?– is working out for Dr. Jay.

I think the correct verb is Tweeting not Twittering

Quite frankly, I really don’t care, and pedantry annoys me.

The thing is that it’s not even original material on the antivax circuit. Hell, how long would it take to do a little homework and realize that in “Three Smart Boys,” Spanky and Alfalfa faked the measles, thus demonstrating that it was no big deal all the way back in 1937?

I think the correct verb is Tweeting not Twittering

No, Orac had it right – in Jay’s case it is definitely Twittering.

You know what I find impressive? As a kid, I never experienced measles in any context other than old TV shows, thanks to vaccines.

A little more info on the Minnesota outbreak of which Dr. Jay shows a decided lack of civility: Climbing Numbers in Minnesota Measles Outbreak.

They do the same thing for the chicken pox, too. “I had the pox! I’m fine!”

Well, I had the pox at 13, and I had pox in places where there should be no pox (I will not elaborate further). It was both gross and horrendously painful, and I got a couple of permanent scars on my face for a bonus. An illness does not need to be fatal for me to want to spare my child. I’m sure all the “my kid will just get it naturally!” brigade members think theirs will get a mild case at 4. Well, even in the days of no vaccination and freely circulating chicken pox, not everyone got so lucky.

I think the correct verb is Tweeting not Twittering.

Huh? As of 11:43PM EDT, 3/24/11, “Twittering” does not appear in Orac’s blog entry. Did Orac edit it? Was it the sentence that now reads “However, apparently he’s been Tweeting a lot lately…” If so, shame on you Orac! As Militant A. suggested, while ‘Twittering’ is not the ‘correct’ term, it’s serves as an effective (and not THAT harsh) jibe at the whole shallowness of the Twitter phenomenon. Maybe Orac didn’t mean it as satire, but it was, and that’s good. I hope it’ll get changed back.
I’d love to just say that argumentum ad television is just more evidence that Baudrillard was right 27 years ago, but I think Dr. Jay is actually making an abbreviated argumentum ad populum. That is the ‘logic’ would be: ‘The Brady Bunch was an extremely popular mass audience show. Therefore the writers and producers could not afford to make a joke about anything their audience would take seriously. Thus, a punchline on The Brady Bunch indicates that a kind of broad public concensus must have existed at that time that measles was not serious.’ The problem being that public opinion is hardly a warrant of the actual danger represented by any health threat, (duh!).
For example, it has long been common, and justifiable I think, to read the Zeitgeist from the jokes of late-night TV comedians. But, Dr. Jay could get social-scientific and do survey research PROVING that the vast majority of people right now in 2011 think measles is a joke. Now, you could make medical arguments from THAT! Or maybe not, since the vast majority of Americans also believe they are being watched over by Angels (I blame Wim Wenders for this, God Damn him!).
But obviously this Dr. Jay is a fake since I remember the REAL Doctor by that name and he had skills!

I don’t remember measles, but I remember the mumps. It was horrible to be in so much pain and not being able to open my mouth to get food, or speak. It used to be the main reason for deafness in kids in the 1960s.

So Little Augie says “Just be glad that we vaccinate ALL little girls for that. Otherwise we’d have sterility out the wazoo.”

So women are better if they are deaf? Or have become sterile due to oophoritis. Wow, you are sexist bastard.

I found the episode on YouTube. Wow, it was annoying. I can’t believe I actually watched it as a kid. If Dr. Jay thinks that is a realistic depiction of a family with measles, he is more divorced from reality than I thought! I only remember mumps, and measles is even more horrible… there was no sitting up and playing Monopoly with siblings. All one can do is lie in a darkened room and occasionally groan. Of course, the Brady Brunch involves a step family with six kids in a spotless house and a live-in house keeper.

R..I..G..H..T

I can’t believe I actually watched it and enjoyed it as a kid … but that was before I became part of a step-family (and for the same reasons, death of a parent). That program completely was divorced from reality. And it seems Dr. Jay is now also completely divorced from reality.

(Note to Enkidu: 🙁 … My sister was born premature in the early 1960s and spent two months in the hospital, but I don’t remember that — other than my parents worrying about her (and being part of a family with the only kid around who could not drink milk!). My oldest son spent five days in the Intermediate Infant Care Unit after a night in the NICU as a newborn… that was horrible for me! I don’t do FB, and I will not even try to figure out the idiocy that is posted there. I’d like to give you a virtual hug, it won’t do much other than take away a teeny tiny bit of the nastiness… I’m sorry.)

Seem to have goofed link above.
http://tinyurl.com/4df25e7
Funny, the slang term for excellence of this degree is ‘sick’.

Th1Th2:

It doesn’t make any sense because vaccination does not make any sense at all

Actually, troll, you don’t make sense. You have refused to answer basic questions and have no understanding of reality. As noted before, you are just a clueless troll.

Everyone, please ignore the troll.

NP on the double post, Chris. I think most of us know this board isn’t the most user friendly system. I wish we could edit posts to clean up stuff or erase extraneous double-posts, as you can with most BBCode based forums. Has it always been as slow and awkward as it is now, or is this related to the DDoS attack Orac mentioned last week?

I absolutely do not mind trolls. If not for them we are just preaching to the choir. They have every right to post here.

@6 Augustine
You cite the CDC on measles.
* “Before 1963, approximately 500,000 cases and 500 deaths were reported annually, with epidemic cycles every 2–3 years. However, the actual number of cases was estimated at 3–4 million annually”
That translates to 3 to 4 Thousand deaths per year. Does that not contradict your statement “40 years ago if 1 in 1000 died from measles then that means 4000 kids died each year. Didn’t happen’ ?

@15 Th1Th2
“Don’t they get bored using this line all the time? Let’s try something else like too young to play basketball, too young to ride a bike, too young to look for a job etc etc.”

Wow, how much science do you actually know and what planet do you live on? Your extrapolations are beyond belief.
Good luck on Xenon!

@Th2Th1
WTF- What does this conclude? Just that you are nonsencical.

I remember the measles. I locked myself up in my parents’ cupboard because I couldn’t stand the light in the room even with the shutters down.
I remember gasping for breath when I had the whomping cough
And I remember chicken pox very well because it was my 21st birthday.
And all cases were normal, uncomplicated cases.
If they were the worst case scenario, I’d still want to spare my children that misery

I wonder if ‘Dr.’ Jay has anything to do with this mindless blurb from the BBC:

“The curcumin molecule is already well-known in medicine for its anti-cancer and anti-oxidant properties. ”

Of course the mere mention of “anti-oxidant” already sets off the bullshit alarm, but “anti-cancer” as well? Geez … How are people meant to form a sensible view of the world when news articles lead with such bullshit claims as if they were facts?

By the way, I do prefer the “argumentum ad bradi bunchium”.

Only to a deliberate ignoramus like you

You are confusing ‘ignoramus’ and ‘ignorabimus’. The former condition is non-malicious and remediable.

Funnily enough I tweeted that screenshot to Dr Jay and, for once, he didn’t DM me with some smarmy passive-aggressive reply. I expect one as soon as he reads this.

“The curcumin molecule is already well-known in medicine for its anti-cancer and anti-oxidant properties. “

What? Wait, Curcumin as in Curcuma?
Heck, I didn’t know I was eating that healthily just by adding one of my favourite spices so often that my husband complained about “yellow food”.
I should probably start smoking or else I’ll live forever and cause severe overpopulation all by myself

@JohnV

Hmm…I’d venture a guess, but I wouldn’t want to be “uncivil”.

@Chris, thanks for the virtual hug. Right back at you 🙂

As for measles, my sister caught it from god-knows-where in 1990 (none of our family, friends, nor her classmates had measles). She was 13 years old at the time. As kids we never got a booster after our 12 month vax; apparently, I didn’t need one but she certainly did. Anyways, to make a long story short, she missed almost a month of school, laying on the sofa, moaning and wishing she was dead. I lost track of how many trips to the doctor she had (it took them about a week to figure out she had the measles, and then I got a booster just in case). No lasting effects for her, but her state during those few weeks I’ll never forget.

As long as he’s making medical decisions based on depictions of disease in popular culture, Dr. Gordon should probably read The Mirror Crack’d, about that trivial disease, rubella, for which he does not vaccinate his unfortunate patients.

Always risky to play the devil’s advocate – not least because I know nothing about Dr. Jay and can’t judge now much of a devil he actually is. However, could’t it be that he is just saying that 10 cases of meesles is not an epideminc – the “Brad Bunch” referrence being just an unfortunate and unnecessary remark? Ten cases of any disease, trivial or deadly, does not seem to make a epdemic to me either.

Augustine is still arguing that measles is not a serious disease, yet fully half of those infected in Minnesota have been hospitalized…just saying.

So, first Dr. Jay says there is no chance his unvaccinated patients will come in contact with these diseases. When proved wrong (there certainly is a chance, with how often people travel) he makes an argument that just a few cases isn’t an “outbreak”. When shown the definition of “outbreak” he argues ‘well it’s okay because it’s not serious anyway’.

That, my friends is the sound of moving goalposts.

I’m curious; What does Dr. Jay have to say about SSPE? A complication of measles:

No cure for SSPE exists…people with this disease frequently die 1 to 2 years after diagnosis, but some may survive for longer periods. The condition is always deadly…Immunization against measles is the only known prevention for SSPE…

Prior to death, there may be:

Behavior changes

Dementia

Stupor and coma

Seizures and subsequent injuries

Oh, and did I mention this happens years after a measles infection? Yes, indeed, I wouldn’t want to protect my children from this.

You don’t even need to clear old cemeteries to see how huge child mortality was before modern medicine. Just do a Google image search on “victorian postmortem photos.” Victorians had a habit of dressing the departed one in their Sunday best and taking a photograph of them as a memento. Most of the images that come up are of children. There are a few representative examples at http://www.webhistoryofengland.com/?p=414

Does that mean I get to use the measels scene Marx Brother’s movie Room Service as an example as to why measels ARE dangerous? 😛

If Dr. Jay is looking to pick up tips from cheesy old tv shows, he might want to check the episode of Quincy where the good doctor battles to get a kid who’s been labled as “retarded” diagnosed with this thing called “autism”. Maybe this will help him get to grips with some areas of epidemiology he has trouble with.

@ Anglachel:

Unfortunately no, from what I see. The other lunatics are getting more ridiculous too.

@Antifia

“Outbreak” and “Epidemic” are two terms used to describe an unusual manifestation of disease in terms of person, place, and time. They are used interchangeably in the literature. However, to the public, “epidemic” seems to be worse. At any rate, there are pre-established guidelines on what is an outbreak and what isn’t. We don’t sit around throwing dice when we hear of a situation and decide on whether or not it’s an outbreak based on that.

Are those guidelines arbitrary? Not in the least. It’s always 1 over the expected rate. To find the expected rate, we count the number of cases from previous years and get an average. For MN, that average was about 1 case (2, if you round up) of measles per year for the entire state. (Person, place, time.)

Here we have 11 cases (as of this morning), in one area of the state, in a couple of weeks. (Person, place, time.)

Why the guidelines? Because too many resources would be unnecessarily spent if we truly “freaked out” over a non-outbreak… If, say, two cases popped up, one in January and the other in December, in two opposite ends of the world. (Person, place, time.)

Here’s the kicker… All these cases, ALL OF THEM, were epidemiologically linked, meaning that they had something to do with each other. They were from the same community, were in the same location within the incubation and exposure periods. All those details will eventually come out. That epidemiological link is also an important part of an outbreak investigation.

In the case of Dr. Jay’s tweets and opinions on this, he was presented with person (11 cases, epi-linked), place (one single region of MN), and time (in the last couple of weeks), and he refused to acknowledge that it was an outbreak, even calling it a random event.

Just adding that my aunt has been in a wheelchair since the age of 9 due to complications of measles. This was in the 60s (I was told it was right before they came out with the vaccine, but I don’t know how accurate that is).

“In the case of Dr. Jay’s tweets and opinions on this, he was presented with person (11 cases, epi-linked), place (one single region of MN), and time (in the last couple of weeks), and he refused to acknowledge that it was an outbreak, even calling it a random event.”

It’s an “outbreak.” But, in the great scheme of things, it’s also “random.” That is, we will not eradicate an organism like measles which has lived in relative symbiosis with hominids for millions of years. Therefore, there will be random outbreaks even in countries with herd immunity. Measles vaccination is not 100% effective and some people won’t or can’t get the shot.

The hospitalization details are unavailable. I think that most of them are probably quite “soft” because most doctors are just confounded by this “new” disease. I do not mean to diminish terrible sadness of the cases of measles which end in tragedies. It’s just that health care was quite different fifty or one hundred years ago and I believe that measles has a much lower complication and fatality rate in this century.

Have a nice day and a great weekend!

Best,

Jay

Coincidentally, I was watching the 1970’s medical drama “Emergency” on Netflix last night. Drs. Brackett and Early sternly lectured a mother who didn’t get her 5 year old son a polio vaccine. They explained herd immunity and how vaccines work and how important they are. I was impressed. Not all 70’s show were clueless. Rampart General knew the 411!

Dr. Jay is ignorant. Fish swim, the Pope is Catholic, and water is wet. Film at 11.

@Dr. Gordon,

“I do not mean to diminish terrible sadness of the cases of measles which end in tragedies.”

That’s why you compared it to an episode of a tv show and characterized people who were hospitalized as “soft”?

Furthermore, can you reconcile your lack of empathy over this measles outbreak (your goalpost-moving, term-redefining aside) with the great rage you showed towards Orac after he linked to a comic you didn’t like?

It’s interesting that Jay Gordon refers to a “symbiotic” relationship between measles and those it infects. Given that for many people familiar with the term, “symbiosis” is most commonly used to describe a relationship in which both species involved are helped (or in the case of commensalism, one is helped and the other unharmed), Jay seems to be implying that measles fits into one of these categories (parasitism, which accurately describes the relationship between humans and measles, is not what people commonly think of when they hear the term “symbiosis”). So it’s reasonable to conclude that this is yet another way in which Jay is trying to minimize the harm caused by a dangerous infectious agent so that his antivax message will be better received.

I probably shouldn’t be too hard on Jay. He’s probably steaming that Google has dropped his website to second in the rankings that come up when you search under “Dr. Jay Gordon M.D.”). The first site that appears now is for a clothing site, drjay.com. I don’t think there’s a connection…

In other Maverick Doc news, I was microwaving my lunch in the break room just now and picked up a copy of For Women First to while away a few minutes. Our buddy Dr. Oz was on the front cover, touting his antistress answer to belly fat in an article proclaiming that you could lose 16 pounds in 14 days. The secret? Vitamin C. Never mind eating less, getting adequate rest and exercising more, the villain in putting on lard around your midsection is the stress hormone response, aided by those evil adrenal glands. All you need to do is chug down lots of vitamin C, up to 3 grams a day according to Dr. Oz, and the pounds will melt away.
Whatever dregs of respectability this guy has left, they’re melting away fast.

Dr. Jay:

No doubt you inform the parents in your practice of the rare risks of taking the measles vaccine.

Do you warn them about the much more common risks of such complications as ITP, pneumonia, encephalitis and death if their child does not receive the vaccine?

Do you warn them about the risk of developing Subacute Sclerosing Panencephalitis if their child does not receive the vaccine?

Do you think Raold Dahl is misguided?

It’s an “outbreak.” But, in the great scheme of things, it’s also “random.”

Oh, NOW it’s an outbreak. But notice how outbreak is in quotes. Dr. Jay, why didn’t you just write, “Yeah. Yeah. It’s a f-ing outbreak, whatever”? I’d have more respect for you (maybe) if you’d at least honestly tell us that you don’t feel it is but you just want us to shut up and leave you alone about it.

And about randomness… Random went away when Wakefield et al scared people in that community away from the vaccine. Random went away when said unimmunized people brought back measles with them. Random vanished when other unvaccinated folks caught the damn thing.

When a series of events is put into place by the actions of someone (or some thing), and they would have otherwise not happened, randomness is obliterated.

@Todd

Yeah, but Wakefield got the ball rolling in ’98. Six in one hand, half a dozen in the other. But I get what you mean.

Chemmomo@64

You are right-should have checked and not relied on memory. I do remember how light hurt my eyes when I had the measles and how boring it was that I couldn’t read.

Moving away from fiction, and risking a brush with Godwin’s Law, history provides another much-discussed example of measles having terrible consequences: “Then in 1900 the first major event that shaped Hitler’s destiny happened. His younger brother Edmund dies of measles. Hitler went from a young boy who was very outgoing and performed well in school and became a young man who seemed more and more detached and sullen. His school work greatly suffered after the death of his brother and he more and more frequently battled with his father.” (http://www.auburn.edu/~dsm0007/ and other sources)

Whether it was measles encephalitis wiping out some empathy pathways in his brain — or the psychological trauma of losing his younger brother — that turned Hitler from a charming and bright youngster into a mass murderer, it certainly provides one more reason to immunize!

This whole thing has turned into a “How many ways can Jay be wrong” thread. Amusing, yet sad.

Re #69, Hey, I watch that show too! I don’t recall that scene, but I remember a different plotline involving a rabies vaccanation and highly religious parents. End result, they decided to give the shot right before it turned out not to be nessicary. I agree, they certainly knew thier stuff!

Will we see jay basing new tweets on The Fall of the House of Usher? Probably not – that would mean he is capable of reading the written word and taking away some of the meaning.

herr doctor bimmler @86

Fail. Total fail. Catastrophic fail. Virologists agree that measles has been around a few thousand years at most (thought to have mutated from rinderpest or some other animal Morbilivirus).

And the rinderpest has recently become extinct in the wild due to vaccination.

Feck, I’m only a mathematical physicist and even I know that. Is Dr Gordon trying to be as wrong as possible?

I am only a mechanical engineer and even I know that. Kind of funny how Jay likes to brandish his credentials and experience here and then immediately show how not only knows less about infectious diseases than all the MDs who comment here, he knows less than the engineers, physicists, programmers etc.

ABE = Air Brake Endorsement (If you are going to flaunt irrelevant credentials, go all the way)

herr doktor bimler wrote: All my preparations for a zombie outbreak are based on television programs. Is this wrong?

Yes, it’s wrong. All the best zombie documentaries are in movies, not TV. The little screen doesn’t give enough definition.

jax:

If decades-old memory serves, at the end the parents made a big chart of all the kids’ vaccination dates and figured out what everyone was missing.

Earlier in this thread I posted a youtube link to that episode. When I watched it last night they were making a chart of the diseases the kids had received. The whooping cough row had no check marks, I assume the kids had has their DTP vaccines.

Dr. Gordon has been told before that the evidence is that measles originated from rinderpest no more than 1500 years ago. It plainly isn’t a symbiont of the human species of millions of years standing, which you’d think would be obvious even to Dr. Gordon: if the disease had infected — and not merely infected but benefited like a good symbiont — the human race for millions of years, how is it that so many human populations were completely immunologically naive and therefore suffered devastating disease from it when it was introduced?  How is it that *any* population that is pretty isolated for a few decades suffers an epidemic when the disease is introduced?

Dr. Gordon has objected before that, “oh, no, we mustn’t eradicate measles! Who knows what deep dependencies human health may have on measles” — a disease to which the human race as a whole has been exposed to for less than 1,500 years, and large parts of the human race have been exposed to for less than 500 years. 

I think this whole “miilion year symbiosis” is just an excuse that Dr. Gordon uses to try to justify his deliberate decision to destroy herd immunity against measles. It’s a stupid and obviously false excuse, and he’s been told that before, but for some reason he keeps repeating it.    

Dr. Jay’s rather distant relationship with facts and reality makes me wonder why anyone would inflict him on their child a second time.

I’m sure he’s very nice, but I’d rather, you know, as my DOCTOR, have a scientifically correct asshole as a Doc then a nice idiot.

I think Orac was right the first time when he said Dr. Gordon was twittering rather than tweeting. Dr. Gordon is very reminiscent of a little bird twittering its meaningless little noises in the hedge while other people get on with the hard work that science requires.

Good Morning!

Got up late, relaxing before my soccer game starts at 11:00 and then planning on an NCCA Saturday afternoon. In the meantime, I’d like to respond to some of what’s been written above. This will take me a few minutes.

While I do that, have a look at this pretty impressive report out of the AAAI. Probably the “tip of an iceberg.” Maybe nbothing inherent wrong with DTaP vaccines unless the kids have allergies.

http://www.medpagetoday.com/MeetingCoverage/AAAAI/25520

Back in a little while.

Best,

Jay

Yawn. Dr. Jay, spare us the dissertation(s). One can only dig so much before one breaks through the Earth’s crust and hits a very hot place from which there is no return.

The only thing Dr. Jay managed to do is demonstrate how investigators are examining pre-dispositions to vaccine reactions and how they can be minimised. I would say nice attempt at distraction but you even failed at your attempt to disparage DTaP. I’m sure we are all very interested in “Jay-speak” definitions for ‘symbiosis’, ‘random’ and ‘outbreak’.

Todd – I was thinking more of, “Nevermind”

Apology for your inaccuracy? I’ll sit here holding my breath. 🙂

Jay

Again, good morning to you all–

Firstly, Orac, elevating me to someone worthy of two full posts within five weeks is very, very flattering. I’d think it’s a little counterproductive on your part because it probably causes detractors and fans alike to pay far more attention to my unproven, speculative, minority points of view than they otherwise would.

In any case, thank you.

I know you’re not terribly familiar with Twitter, but it can be a light-hearted place. My post had a touch of irony—hard for you since I’ve broken so many of your irony meters!–and a serious note, too. The main idea behind my post and my thoughts on sporadic measles outbreaks in America is that we really won’t be able to eradicate measles and there will yearly occurrences of returning travelers giving measles to a dozen other people. It’s just not newsworthy because of . . . herd immunity. I still contend that an actress, a pediatrician or two in California and a collection of so-called anti-vax folks won’t dent herd immunity enough to make measles epidemics possible in America.

In the 1990’s there some very literate debates about the benefits of getting the disease, using low versus high dose vaccines and the dangers of adult measles. These debates have pretty much disappeared, but here’s more red meat for you, the measles virus and the infection it creates in strong healthy humans probably improves human health. The debate was heated and the vaccine remains unquestioned because one can’t have a public debate of losing “weaker” humans to measles to benefit stronger humans. If individual parents evaluate the risks and benefits of measles vaccination for their child and choose not to vaccinate, that’s a supportable decision.

But, of course, I certainly agree that abandoning measles vaccination would lead to unacceptable morbidity and mortality. I do not support that reversal of public policy. I support individual parents’ right to participate in the discussion.

Here’s the primary fallacy in most of the arguments above and elsewhere: An extremely very small percentage of children who get measles will get complications and a far smaller percentage of these would suffer larger complications but the mortality rate in America in 2011 will still be zero or close to it. AND, first you have to get measles! Conversely, if there are any possible side effects, complications or problems with the measles vaccine, 100% of the recipients of the vaccines are being put at risk. This, again, is not an argument for abandoning measles vaccines, merely an argument for parents being able to discuss the issue freely with their doctors without being judged or evicted from the practice.

OK, on to the actual post. David, you’re wasting your time criticizing the TV show as being scientifically unsound. I knew that. Irony, my friend, irony.

Orac, spending hours and hours and tens of thousands of words writing about ten cases of measles while millions of children die from lack of breastfeeding is truly cold-hearted and your lack of concern for these children is shameful.

Damn! Where does the time go? I haven’t even had a chance to answer any of the comments but I’ll try get back here later.

Again, Orac, thank you for writing so much about me and, as the saying goes, spelling my name correctly.

Have a great day today.

Jay

Dr. Jay:

Orac, spending hours and hours and tens of thousands of words writing about ten cases of measles while millions of children die from lack of breastfeeding is truly cold-hearted and your lack of concern for these children is shameful.

Now what evidence do you have that millions of American children are dying from lack of breastfeeding? (keeping it in the same country, don’t muddy the issue and talk about elsewhere)

But, of course, I certainly agree that abandoning measles vaccination would lead to unacceptable morbidity and mortality. I do not support that reversal of public policy. I support individual parents’ right to participate in the discussion.

If all those parents choose not to vaccinate, however, isn’t that abandoning measles vaccination?

So, Dr. Jay, you would rather have a conversation with yourself and not tell us how millions of American children are dying form lack of breastfeeding?

Indeed. I, too, am very interested in the studies and data Dr. Jay uses to come to the conclusion that millions of American children are dying from lack of breastfeeding.

Come on, Dr. Jay! Lay the evidence on us!

I still contend that an actress, a pediatrician or two in California and a collection of so-called anti-vax folks won’t dent herd immunity enough to make measles epidemics possible in America.

But you still make the effort to make this possible.

the measles virus and the infection it creates in strong healthy humans probably improves human health.

Citation Needed (and unlikely to be forthcoming)

AND, first you have to get measles!

Which would be impossible if measles was sent the way of smallpox and rinderpest by way of vaccination.

Dr. Jay,

Way to go for broke in your statements. You claim that an actress and a couple of pediatricians are not going to make a dent in herd immunity. Perhaps you should come to Minnesota and speak to pediatricians treating Somali-American children whose parents have been the direct target of Jenny McCarthy’s groups. No more than 30% of that tight-knit community receives the MMR. How’s that for a dent in herd immunity?

People have been hospitalized. I shudder when I consider how many more will be affected.

Your flippancy and arrogance is infuriating. Shame on you.

Karen @126

Your flippancy and arrogance is infuriating.

Give the poor man a break, Karen. What else is he supposed to rely on when doesn’t have any evidence and knows less about biology than most of the engineers, physicists, programmers etc.(never mind the MDs and RNs) who comment here.

I am surprised Jay doesn’t advocate the Spartan custom of leaving newborns outside overnight. Now that would really ensure the “strength” of the survivors.

It’s just not newsworthy because of . . . herd immunity. I still contend that an actress, a pediatrician or two in California and a collection of so-called anti-vax folks won’t dent herd immunity enough to make measles epidemics possible in America.

I guess I need to dedicate an Epi Night School post to the good doctor on what herd immunity entails. As far as Minnesota goes, herd immunity is done. Measles immunization rates have dropped below 95%, which, for a disease as infectious as measles, is the threshold for herd immunity. Within the Somali community that is being targeted by certain friends of Dr. Jay, immunization against measles is even lower.

I’ll reserve my opinion on whether or not this is another… well… fail.

Dr. Jay says, “millions of children die from lack of breastfeeding […]”

I, too, am waiting for the reference for this statement. Of course, according to Dr. Jay himself, all of the babies he sees in his practice are breastfed and healthy. I guess then, in his mind, since the opposite of breastfed is formula-fed, they must also be the opposite of healthy.

“my thoughts on sporadic measles outbreaks in America is that we really won’t be able to eradicate measles and there will yearly occurrences of returning travelers giving measles to a dozen other people.”

Fortunately Dr. Gordon wasn’t involved with the smallpox eradication campaign. He would have been in there arguing that we can’t possibly eradicate a disease that has no animal reservoirs and no carriers, which usually gives lifelong immunity to survivors, and for which we have an effective vaccine. No doubt smallpox had a relative symbiosis with hominids for millions of years too, so eradication was a bad thing as weaker humans are now able to live full lives instead of being maimed or killed by smallpox as would be preferable for the benefit of stronger humans.

I tried googling for the answer to this but wasn’t able to find it so I hope someone here will help me out: why is the rate of hospitalization so high in Minnesota?

It seems to me that there are a disproportionate number of babies infected, and maybe this is the same situation as pertussis, where the baby’s tiny lungs make them less able to survive a respiratory infection. But then why are so many babies infected? Are there a lot of unconfirmed or unreported cases among adults and older children, so the eleven confirmed cases are the tip of the iceberg? Or what? Does anyone know?

@LW

Dr. Jay speculated that they’re “soft” admissions from physicians not familiar with measles and its complications. I have to say that he may be right.

(I know, right? It’s weird how one group is willing to admit that he is right, but God forbid a group he disagrees with be right.)

Anyway, the word on the street is that it’s a combination of an abundance of caution and true severity of the disease. However, we’ll need to wait for the dept. of health to tell us. They’re usually very transparent about their measles outbreaks. As soon as they do, I’ll assure you that we’ll be blogging about it. (I recommend Todd W.’s great coverage over on Harpocrates Speaks.

Thank you, Rene. That would explain why there are so many hospitalizations, but why are so many babies infected? Unless someone infected a nursery, it seems to me that there must be older people carrying it from baby to baby. I’m just having a hard time believing there are really only eleven cases and four of them are too young to vaccinate.

@LW

Ah. Great question. There are different classifications for what a “case” is in epidemiological terms. From CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/osels/ph_surveillance/nndss/casedef/measles_2010.htm):

Probable:

In the absence of a more likely diagnosis, an illness characterized by:
generalized rash lasting ≥3 days; and
temperature ≥101°F or 38.3°C; and
cough, coryza, or conjunctivitis; and
no epidemiologic linkage to a confirmed case of measles; and
noncontributory or no serologic or virologic testing.

Also,

Confirmed:

Laboratory confirmation by any of the following:
positive serologic test for measles immunoglobulin M antibody;
significant rise in measles antibody level by any standard serologic assay;
isolation of measles virus from a clinical specimen; or
detection of measles-virus specific nucleic acid by polymerase chain reaction
Note: A laboratory-confirmed case does not have to have generalized rash lasting ≥3 days; temperature ≥101°F or 38.3°C; cough, coryza, or conjunctivitis.
OR
An illness characterized by:
generalized rash lasting =3 days; and
temperature =101°F or 38.3°C; and
cough, coryza, or conjunctivitis; and
epidemiologic linkage to a confirmed case of measles.

As you can see, Minnesota is only reporting “confirmed” cases at this time. I’m sure there are some “probable” cases that are yet to be confirmed.

I’m also sure that there are some kids with measles whose parents are afraid to bring them forward for fear of stigma. (e.g. “How dare these immigrants bring this plague to our country?!”) And I’m sure that there are some sub-clinical cases, which are the scary ones because there is a condition known as SSPE (a delayed-onset encephalitis that can be deadly). A little girl in my town, who was adopted years ago from India, developed SSPE and, sadly, died from it. She had measles as a child in India.

Finally, and I don’t mean to make this post too long, measles is incredibly infectious. It doesn’t take much of the virus to infect people, and it can linger in the air and on surfaces for a few hours after someone has been there… If any of these kids went to an ER, they left virus there, and someone not immune will likely get it.

Frigging amazing. The same Dr. Gordon who throws a fit because of a comic Orac links to, speaks sympathetically of eugenics and has the audacity to refer to Orac’s topic choice as shameful.

Dr. Gordon […] speaks sympathetically of eugenics

To be fair, the equivalence between eugenics programs and measles vaccination is probably intended as irony.

Spending hours and hours writing self-exculpatory comments to Orac’s blog while millions of children die from lack of breastfeeding is truly cold-hearted and his lack of concern for these children is shameful.

“I’m also sure that there are some kids with measles whose parents are afraid to bring them forward for fear of stigma.”

Maybe there are also some whose parents are afraid to bring them forward, or who are afraid to come forward themselves, because they have been told to fear the public health authorities. Todd mentioned above, “It was Handley, remember, that told them that vaccines cause autism and that they should not trust state health organizations.”

Firstly, Orac, elevating me to someone worthy of two full posts within five weeks is very, very flattering. I’d think it’s a little counterproductive on your part because it probably causes detractors and fans alike to pay far more attention to my unproven, speculative, minority points of view than they otherwise would.

In any case, thank you.

Of course you would be thankful given the lack of media attention you have received, particularly since your debacle of a performance on Bullsh*t. Your unproven, speculative, minority points of view should have the light of day shone on them; it’s not the least bit counterproductive. Particularly since they always get you to post and dig your stupid hole even deeper.

I know you’re not terribly familiar with Twitter, but it can be a light-hearted place. My post had a touch of irony—hard for you since I’ve broken so many of your irony meters!–and a serious note, too.

Oh ahuh ahuh, I was only joking? Sure, if you say so. [/eyeroll]

The main idea behind my post and my thoughts on sporadic measles outbreaks in America is that we really won’t be able to eradicate measles and there will yearly occurrences of returning travelers giving measles to a dozen other people. It’s just not newsworthy because of . . . herd immunity. I still contend that an actress, a pediatrician or two in California and a collection of so-called anti-vax folks won’t dent herd immunity enough to make measles epidemics possible in America.

Of course we won’t be able to eradicate measles with mouthpieces for the anti-vaxx movement like you. I wonder if you, the other paediatrician and what you call an “actress” have seen these:
http://projects.latimes.com/schools/2008-immunization-exemption-rate/ranking/page/1/

http://www.askdrsears.com/thevaccinebook/Vaccine_Friendly_Doctors.asp

http://m.cafemom.com/groups/read_topic.php?group_id=4388&topic_id=2738581

Why try and downplay your involvement with the erosion of herd immunity? Embrace it, wear it proudly, you do every other witless claim you make.

In the 1990’s there some very literate debates about the benefits of getting the disease, using low versus high dose vaccines and the dangers of adult measles. These debates have pretty much disappeared, but here’s more red meat for you, the measles virus and the infection it creates in strong healthy humans probably improves human health.

Dr. Jay, can you tell me what the measles case fatality rate during the 1990’s was? How about how many cases of SSPE and encephalitis? As if you aren’t bad enough at practising medicine, you are now espousing anthroposophy? Try presenting some scientific evidence of your assertions instead of half-arsed philosophy.

The debate was heated and the vaccine remains unquestioned because one can’t have a public debate of losing “weaker” humans to measles to benefit stronger humans. If individual parents evaluate the risks and benefits of measles vaccination for their child and choose not to vaccinate, that’s a supportable decision.

I’ll simply defer to T. Bruce McNeely’s answers to these statements, but reiterate that not vaccinating for measles based upon magical-thinking, is not supportable.

But, of course, I certainly agree that abandoning measles vaccination would lead to unacceptable morbidity and mortality. I do not support that reversal of public policy. I support individual parents’ right to participate in the discussion.

How do you reconcile these statements? The mental gymnastics are torturous. Of course parents have the right to “participate in the discussion” aka refuse vaccinations but that doesn’t mean that they are equipped to make the right decision, especially with doctors like you merely validating their choices based upon misinformation. I see you haven’t learned a thing from your involvement with Eliza Jane Scovill.

I can assure you, that parents don’t seek you out because of your superior medical skills; they seek you out for your “vaccine friendly” status and know you will validate their beliefs, without question, no matter how erroneous. It is a truly sad testament to the medical profession that a physician feels the need to adopt a cheap shtick to maintain a practise.

Here’s the primary fallacy in most of the arguments above and elsewhere: An extremely very small percentage of children who get measles will get complications and a far smaller percentage of these would suffer larger complications but the mortality rate in America in 2011 will still be zero or close to it. AND, first you have to get measles! Conversely, if there are any possible side effects, complications or problems with the measles vaccine, 100% of the recipients of the vaccines are being put at risk. This, again, is not an argument for abandoning measles vaccines, merely an argument for parents being able to discuss the issue freely with their doctors without being judged or evicted from the practice.

Do children who suffer from disease complications come with a sign? You are demonstrably false in your assertion that the mortality rate from measles will be nil or close to it. Sure there are complications from measles vaccines but far less than the actual disease if vaccination stopped. You subscribe to the “hide in the herd” mentality, encouraging your patients to not vaccinate or validate their poor choices, all the while relying upon others to keep vaccination rates up sufficiently high to protect your entitled, narcissistic, ignorant clients.

Orac, spending hours and hours and tens of thousands of words writing about ten cases of measles while millions of children die from lack of breastfeeding is truly cold-hearted and your lack of concern for these children is shameful.

Snort, yes, please grace us with the foundation for this, oh great lactivist one.

I, and many of my contemporaries, have not breast fed for years and we are still, apparently, alive.
Is he in the pay of Big Lacta?

I and many of my contemporaries have not vaccinated for years and we’re still alive.

You are very sloppy in critical thinking Anthonky! Emotions rule the day in you. No science.

In case you weren’t aware, auggie, he was parodying that form of thinking.

I was not aware that millions of children were dying from not being breastfed worldwide, never mind just in the United States.

Since Dr Jay did not provide a link or other citation when he originally made that claim, perhaps he will be so kind as to do so in his next post?

@155
But Dr. Jay is oh so civil.

I think you left out the narcissism that thinks we care about what he was doing on Saturday morning. I think sociopathic narcissism at the heart of the anti-vaccination movement. I know the regular anti-vax trolls certainly exhibit it in spades.

This is a statement of fact: “I, and many of my contemporaries, have not breast fed for years and we are still, apparently, alive.” It appears in the very comment that augustine used as a jumping-off point for claiming that you’ve “never posted one single fact”.

Augustine is a fool. This is also a statement of fact.

@Scottynuke

Nice. Love Monty Python.

Not eugenics.

Humans and measles virus “get along”and have for a long time. It doesn’t “cull” or anything like it. The infection may have beneficial effects for humans. Years ago, many people wrote about this. Look it up.

Citing disease statistics from 50-100 years ago isn’t great science because almost no variables have been consistent. Including general health and medical care–even excluding vaccines which, obviously changed disease incidence more than anything else. (I’m not one of those who believe that polio disappeared by magic, reclassification or because we wash our hands better. Vaccines have nearly eradicated polio planet-wide.)

The World Health Organization discusses the millions of deaths worldwide from lack of breastfeeding. A number far higher than worldwide measles fatalities. I didn’t claim this was “only in America.”

“The protection, promotion and support of breastfeeding rank among the most effective interventions to improve child survival. It is estimated that high coverage of optimal breastfeeding practices could avert 13% of the 10.6 million deaths of children under five years occurring globally every year. Exclusive breastfeeding in the first six months of life is particularly beneficial, and infants who are not breastfed in the first month of life may be as much as 25 times more likely to die than infants who are exclusively breastfed.”

http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publications/2008/9789241594295_eng.pdf

I missed the OL party. I had to make late hospital rounds. I heard it was fun though.

Rene’, thank you for understanding that most and possibly all the children admitted to the hospital for measles did not really need to be there.

Today, for those accusing me of narcissism for talking about what I’m doing as if I were a teen on Facebook . . . I’m taking my dog down to the beach as a warm up for my 10:00 AM soccer game. Then, NCAAs!!! And a little more opportunity to write a few notes here.

“Eugenics?!” You guys are absolutely as cynical and unscientific as possible whenever you can be. Are you familiar with the connection between the sickle cell and malaria. I know, I know, not a great analogy, but an example of where a “bad” medical condition turns out to be beneficial. I’ll find something else for you later.

Have a great Sunday!!!!

Jay

Years ago, many people wrote about this. Look it up.

I noticed you provide no links to “look it up”. I can only assume that you would prefer we not find this “evidence” because it is easily refuted. Also, years ago many hypothesis have been “written about” that were subsequently proven false. Relying on old literature is one of the characteristics of the pseudo scientist (Ann Coulter babbling about the benefits of ionizing radiation is a recent example).

Humans and measles virus “get along” and have for a long time.

This is great example the naturalistic fallacy. Humans got along just fine with 50% infant mortality for thousands of years.

Are you familiar with the connection between the sickle cell and malaria.

As a matter of fact yes, In fact I have known this for at least as long as you have been practicing medicine. Sickle cell anemia is hereditary, not infectious, so we are back to eugenics (if we get anywhere at all). As an analogy it is worse than arguing form a diesel engine to spontaneous human combustion.

I believe I have filled in my Jay Gordon fallacy bingo card – what do I win?

There is a fundamental difference between a person’s Facebook page and the comment section of someone else’s blog, however I doubt if Jay Gordon is capable of figuring out what that is. Phila nailed Jay’s character (or lack thereof) perfectly at #158.

I believe I have filled in my Jay Gordon fallacy bingo card – what do I win?

Autographed copy of The Seventh Seal?

“Are you familiar with the connection between the sickle cell and malaria. I know, I know, not a great analogy, but an example of where a ‘bad’ medical condition turns out to be beneficial.”

Sickle cell *is* bad, no scare quotes required. It’s just that malaria is worse. But most people would prefer to fight malaria with drugs and environmental interventions, rather than condemning one child in four to the sort of misery that the sickle cell disease can cause.

What condition does having been infected with measles prevent? Why are there no other means of combatting that condition? And why doesn’t infection with the attenuated virus (i.e., vaccination) likewise prevent that unnamed condition?

Since Dr. Gordon has made the decision that his unfortunate patients must be left vulnerable to measles in order to prevent some other condition, he must surely know the answers to these questions.

Dr. Jay:

The World Health Organization discusses the millions of deaths worldwide from lack of breastfeeding.

How many are American? I specifically asked you to keep in the same country that had the eleven cases of measles. That way do not compare apples to oranges.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I do not believe that Dr. Jay will provide extraordinary evidence for his claim that wild measles infection is somehow beneficial to humans; I do not believe he will even provide adequate evidence for the claim that it was a serious scientific hypothesis for any length of time. But I invite him to try.

In the meantime, I invite all others to join me in commemorating Dr. Jay’s thirty years of clinical expertise with appropriate artwork.

Chris,

How many are American? I specifically asked you to keep in the same country that had the eleven cases of measles. That way do not compare apples to oranges.

One defining characteristic of vaccine apologists is that they are protean. They can discuss to you the horrors of measles infection and one way to avoid the infection is by getting the measles virus. Again, the mercurial Chris will explain how this is possible. She can be a germ-denialist and a germ-buster at the same time.

Okay, to sum up, Jay has been shown to be wrong about the following and has not yet admitted his error:

1) Measles has been around for millions of years
2) Measles is in symbiosis with humans
3) Measles cannot be eradicated
4) Measles does not “cull”, instead it just gives 2 per 1,000 a life-impairment

Furthermore, Jay admits that he was joking and making light of a situation that, for the affected families, is quite serious and nothing to joke about, thereby proving what callous ass he is.

An extremely very small percentage of children who get measles will get complications

Yeah. 1 in 5 is an “extremely very small percentage”. Do you need some remedial lessons in mathematics?

Jay, again I’ll ask, how hard is it for you to type “Okay, I was wrong” and actually mean is?

“Do not attack my character.”

To the extent that your “character” leads you to make specious arguments, and prevents you from recognizing them as specious, it’s relevant.

Not reiterating nonsense that people have already debunked, and not constantly moving goalposts, would also be helpful. So would addressing comments like Todd W’s at #178, instead of changing the subject, or pulling the old “I don’t like your tone, so I don’t have to acknowledge your counterarguments” shtick.

You could also stop complaining about tone while reserving the right to be as arch, smug, sarcastic, supercilious and insulting as you please. That way, you’d avoid coming across as a hypocrite.

In short, if you don’t want people to complain about your character, you might try treating them with actual respect, instead of your laborious passive-aggressive imitation of it.

Just a thought.

Of course, Narad, but sometimes it is helpful to remind folks how far that particular troll is divorced from reality.

I was expecting a science-based rebuttal but it didn’t happen. I’ve forgotten I was dealing with vaccine apologists.

“Do not attack my character.”

To the extent that your “character” leads you to make specious arguments, and prevents you from recognizing them as specious, it’s relevant.

It’s particularly relevant with Dr. Jay, because he’s so quick to make his own person the foundation of his arguments. “Why should you believe that there’s a link between vaccines and autism when no reputable studies support such a link? Why, because my Thirty Years Of Clinical Experience says there’s probably something there!” If Dr. Jay wasn’t so often asking people to believe things based on his own personal qualities, then discussion of his personal qualities would not be so relevant.

Completely different was a bit of a hyperbole, but it’s different enough to create the required reaction without causing a contagious or severe infection. If you can prove otherwise, please provide some evidence. Here’s a hint: You’re not omniscient, your say-so is not enough.

Ah yes, the typical childish retorts from the usual trolls have given me a great laugh at their sheer stupidity.

Nice way to end the weekend, with a laugh at their expense.

“I didn’t claim this was “only in America.””

No, but the thread, and the previous discussions that lead to the creation of this thread, were very clearly about a measles outbreak in the US.

No-one appears to have been talking about breastfeeding before you were, and it bears very little relevance to the topic of conversation, unless one restricts it to the US – which is why you were asked about breastfeeding in the US.

The suspicion is therefore that you raised the issue – not out of legitimate concern (although you may have a legitimate concern about breatfeeding, that does not mean your concern about Orac is legitimate) – but out of desire to use it to attack the character of a fellow physician.

“The suspicion is therefore that you raised the issue – not out of legitimate concern (although you may have a legitimate concern about breatfeeding, that does not mean your concern about Orac is legitimate) – but out of desire to use it to attack the character of a fellow physician.”

And to derail the thread rather than admit that he is wrong about measles as Todd W. detailed in comment 179.

First of all, your version of germ theory is incorrect. I’m not denying germs, I’m denying you and your beliefs. Second, I can’t parse your sentences at all. Finally, I’m guessing you’re trying to say that there’s only a 0.5% genetic difference between the viruses, never mind that there’s probably a similar genetic difference between wolves and dogs. That can be a huge difference.

Humans and measles virus “get along”and have for a long time. It doesn’t “cull” or anything like it. The infection may have beneficial effects for humans. Years ago, many people wrote about this. Look it up.

Wrong, and no matter how you torture the definition of symbiosis, it is wrong and wrong. Oh, and I can find more recent studies that demonstrate that vaccines have beneficial effects for humans, and can reduce the risk of SIDS. Look it up.

Citing disease statistics from 50-100 years ago isn’t great science because almost no variables have been consistent. Including general health and medical care–even excluding vaccines which, obviously changed disease incidence more than anything else.

I neither cited nor asked for disease statistics from 50-100 years ago, I asked for measles morbidity and mortality stats from 20 years ago. That was the last large outbreak in the U.S. and unless you would like to argue otherwise, medical care not improved for measles since. Could you please follow along a little better?

The World Health Organization discusses the millions of deaths worldwide from lack of breastfeeding. A number far higher than worldwide measles fatalities. I didn’t claim this was “only in America.”

“The protection, promotion and support of breastfeeding rank among the most effective interventions to improve child survival. It is estimated that high coverage of optimal breastfeeding practices could avert 13% of the 10.6 million deaths of children under five years occurring globally every year. Exclusive breastfeeding in the first six months of life is particularly beneficial, and infants who are not breastfed in the first month of life may be as much as 25 times more likely to die than infants who are exclusively breastfed.“

Once again, Jay takes massive liberties with an uncited excerpt no less. Thirteen percent of 10.6 million is 1,378,000 by the way and how many are in developed countries Jay? Instead you throw your support behind
another mindless “celebrity” wanking about making it law to exclusively breastfeed infants for at least 6 months. Here’s a thought for you Jay, how about making it law to provide reasonable maternal leaves? How about making it a law to allow public breastfeeding everywhere? How about making it law that employers provide adequate pumping stations and breaks for breastfeeding mothers? So tell me Jay, what have you done to actively engage in legislation to make these laws? When have you travelled to undeveloped or developing countries to train lactation consultants for local women? How many WIC clinics do you visit to promote breastfeeding for recipients and train staffs to do the same?

You have a lot of nerve trying to use this red herring to “shame” Orac when you satisfy yourself by just preaching to the choir. Your breastfeeding nonsense is nothing more than a distraction to avoid answering for your massive, fallacious statements.

Dr. Gordon before you get too worked up about other people attacking your character you should consider self-control, as you do far more damage to your “character” than any one of us ever could.

Why in this post alone your own words you make light of people being hospitalized because of a disease outbreak and you’ve spoken sympathetically of eugenics. I mean you tried shifting your goalposts and backtracking about the eugenics thing, but considering the group of people who are primarily affected by this current measles outbreak alongside your lamentation of the lack of culling the weak I don’t know. Smells like you would have been in the forefront of the movement in the 1920-1940s.

You’ve shown how scientifically ignorant you are and what a giant raging hypocrite you are. Those two are routine for you, but I figure I should include them while I’m at it.

Gray Falcon,

Finally, I’m guessing you’re trying to say that there’s only a 0.5% genetic difference between the viruses, never mind that there’s probably a similar genetic difference between wolves and dogs. That can be a huge difference.

No and don’t make a fool out of yourself. It’s the same pathogenic poliovirus which is so virulent it causes asymptomatic poliomyelitis in more than 95% of all the cases of poliomyelitis.

Can you say hyperbole?

No and don’t make a fool out of yourself. It’s the same pathogenic poliovirus which is so virulent it causes asymptomatic poliomyelitis in more than 95% of all the cases of poliomyelitis.

Any evidence for this claim? Because I’m not taking the word of man who thinks children won’t eat things off the ground.

Th1Th2:

The germ theory of disease, also called the pathogenic theory of medicine, is a theory that proposes that microorganisms are the cause of many diseases.

Nowhere is it stated that they always cause disease.

Are you denying that VAPP and VDPV are not caused by pathogens or germs called poliovirus in the vaccine?

Can you prove that they do? Because your word isn’t good enough.

It’s just a simple yes or no like how it’s easy to say that measles virus causes measles infection, pneumonia, otitis media, encephalitis, SSPE, and even death.

You’ll note that doesn’t happen with the vaccine, at least not at anywhere near the rate of the wild virus. That’s what we’re arguing.

“Instead you throw your support behind another mindless “celebrity” wanking about making it law to exclusively breastfeed infants for at least 6 months.”
 
I’m curious how this works. Suppose a woman cannot breastfeed, say due to prior breast cancer. Or suppose she can but it’s not safe to do so because of disease that can pass in the milk, or drugs that her medical condition requires. Or suppose she can but not enough, because she has twins or triplets. 

Do we throw her in prison immediately and seize the child before it starves or its precious bodily fluids are polluted?  Or do we wait until the child is six months old so that the father, for instance, could legally care for it while the mother is in prison? (this gives the added bonus of a longer prison sentence since obviously every single instance of feeding the child so it doesn’t starve before age six months is a separate felony).  Would it be okay if she hired a wetnurse? (so wealthy mothers like those in Dr. Gordon’s practice could farm out their legal obligations while poor mothers rotted in the penitentiaries).

I suppose if the mother dies before the six months is up, the father or other caretaker can let the child starve, feed it and then go to prison, or hire a wetnurse if the funds are available. 

“Just imagine if people had received a real variola vaccine.”

They did. The practice was called variolation, deliberate infection with variola through the skin. It had a mortality a bit worse than measles, but way better than smallpox contracted the natural way, so it was practiced. Vaccinia was considerably safer than variola, and by use of vaccinia, variola was eradicated in the wild so that these days no one is infected with either variola or vaccinia.

AnthonyK says: “Now I don’t, personally, go along with the idea that you are entirely money motivated, but I do think that you are vanity and ignorance motivated, the percentages being undeterminable.”

I’m not ignorant . . . 🙂

You are correct, though, I am not making any difference here and I have lots of other things to do. Thank you for the clarity, Anthony, I will continue to “tweak my act” to reach a more receptive group of people.

Jay

AnthonyK, I just get very annoyed with people who proclaim, “there ought to be a law!” without considering how such a law would work.

Do we really to have Lactation Police kicking in the door in a no-knock raid because an informant claimed that Mary lets her five month old baby suck on an orange slice? Do we really need to make formula available by prescription only, making sure that there won’t be any leftover that might be passed on to a harried mother with an underage child? Is the breastfeeding problem in the U.S. really so serious that we need to devote law enforcement resources to it, or send women off to the already overcrowded prisons for the crime of quieting a baby by giving him a cracker to gum?

And if the answer to the questions above is no, then the proposed law is just another stupid law that doesn’t get enforced and thereby brings law as a whole into disrepute.

You are correct, though, I am not making any difference here and I have lots of other things to do.

Soccer doesn’t play itself.

Ignorance, yes, stupidity no. And I would add “wilful” for emphasis.
But ignore us, no doubt you have a (golf) handicap to improve.
Best
AnthonyK
PS – and vanity? Bitch, ain’t it, and you so successful and all..

LW, you’re quite correct. Bring back universal breast feeding!
Can I smoke dope first though?
During’s difficult.
Meh, experience.

Th1Th2:
You make the claims, you provide the evidence. That’s the rule.

LW,

Vaccinia was considerably safer than variola, and by use of vaccinia, variola was eradicated in the wild so that these days no one is infected with either variola or vaccinia.

If variolation causes deliberate smallpox infection, what did people get from deliberate inoculation of vaccinia virus from the vaccine?

You cannot deduce that smallpox vaccine had eradicated smallpox when it didn’t even have any variola virus component let alone the vaccine promotes primary vaccinia infection.

You are just speculating just like the rest.

As best I’ve been able to glean, Th1Th2 denies logic.

Those of us who accept logic acknowledge that smallpox was highly contagious to those who had not had it and had not been immunized with vaccinia; that nearly everyone properly immunized with vaccinia (i.e., having produced a scar at the innoculation site) failed to contract smallpox when exposed even though they had not had smallpox itself (i.e., they were immune); that ring vaccination of the population around each smallpox outbreak in the late 70s was followed by the disappearance of smallpox in the wild; and that all of this is sufficient reason to accept that infection with vaccinia* gives rise to immunity against smallpox.

Trying to convince Th1Th2 of this would be as pointless as Achilles’ attempt to convince the Tortoise of the truth of modus ponens, so I will not try. 

* Note that immunization with vaccinia was indeed infection, but with a much milder disease than smallpox. 

Th1Th2:

I have presented you such science-based evidence but I know it’s useless if you keep arguing from ignorance.

You have evidence people are still dying like flies from measles, polio, and smallpox? Because that’s what would be happening if your claims were true.

LW,

The upshot of it is that rational people understand that infection with vaccinia (yes, it’s a mild infection) gives immunity to smallpox but it’s as pointless to explain things to Th1Th2 as it was for Achilles to explain logic to the Tortoise. So I won’t bother.

Before I can even go as far as vaccine prevented smallpox, how did you make such ridiculous claim (#210)that the smallpox vaccine had eradicated vaccinia when the vaccine is intended to produce vaccinia among the vaccinated?

vaccinia when the vaccine is intended to produce vaccinia among the vaccinated?

I did not realise that this thread had turned into a tongue-twister competition.

Gray Falcon,

You have evidence people are still dying like flies from measles, polio, and smallpox? Because that’s what would be happening if your claims were true.

Like I said before it depends on what side of Gray Falcon I am dealing with, that is, whether Gray is talking on behalf of germ-denialism or an advocate of germ-theory and vaccine crusades.

You let me know.

Just a piece of advise. If I were you, just let go quietly on this one (just like what Chris and Science Mom normally do) or be exposed as a great pretender.

You have evidence people are still dying like flies from measles, polio, and smallpox? Because that’s what would be happening if your claims were true.

Like I said before it depends on what side of Gray Falcon I am dealing with, that is, whether Gray is talking on behalf of germ-denialism or an advocate of germ-theory and vaccine crusades.

So, people are or are not dying like flies from measles, polio, and smallpox, based on the attitude of one commenter on one blog?  

Wow.  Reality is more malleable than I realized.

Now that you, unfortunately, appear to be here to stay, let me just emphasize that we will take your claims to have prevailed (as per @233 235) as seriously as we take his.

Correction as noted above.

Orac: “How many times have we heard Dr. Jay say he’s going to leave, only to see him show up again?

About the same number of times we’ve seen him use the following ploys in comments:

1) Charge that posters who disagree with him are being paid off by Big Pharma and volley other insults at them,
2) Complain that people are unfairly assaulting his character and insulting him,
3) Respond only to insults and avoid substantive discussion with those who are posting questions in a civil manner,
4) Blast others for being interested in subjects he would rather not discuss, and attempting to hijack the conversation to other matters,
5) When he has no other comebacks and has been made to look foolish, flounce off declaring that he has better things to do with his time.

The above tactics are standard in many Internet forums, especially those in which woo is discussed.

I didn’t see any response from Jay regarding hazards to hospital patients/staff/visitors from his unvaccinated patients, and possibly from Jay (if he has not been immunized against influenza per the AAP’s call for mandatory flu immunization for health care workers). Maybe he’ll discuss this with us on his return.

Sure.

LW,I didn’t say “the smallpox vaccine had eradicated vaccinia”, I said “by use of vaccinia, variola was eradicated in the wild so that these days no one is infected with either variola or vaccinia.”

Oh you mean, “by use of vaccinia, variola was replaced in the wild so that these days no one is infected with either variola or vaccinia.”?

Why? Because vaccinia is milder than smallpox and then you can just simply claim that smallpox was eradicated.

Of course, you wouldn’t exactly say that smallpox vaccine had eradicated vaccinia until they stopped deliberately infecting people with vaccinia.

Once variola was eradicated, it was no longer necessary to infect people with vaccinia to protect them from variola, and so doctors stopped doing it (except in special cases like the military, I should add, because variola still exists in labs, though not in the wild).

The USG rescinded routine smallpox vaccination for ~9 years, leaving the herd unprotected despite global threat of smallpox. Or maybe a vaccinia epidemic is a greater threat.

To recap, by use of vaccinia, variola was eradicated in the wild, so it was no longer necessary to use vaccinia, so we don’t.

Of course, the use of the lesser-of-the-two-evil principle is being applied here.

Hmm, somehow I cut off the beginning of my comment:

Oh you mean, “by use of vaccinia, variola was replaced in the wild so that these days no one is infected with either variola or vaccinia.”?

That’s a reasonable way to put it, but doesn’t contradict my statement. The highly dangerous disease smallpox was replaced by the far milder disease vaccinia, at which point the highly dangerous disease smallpox was unable to replicate itself in new hosts, and therefore was eradicated in the wild.

Why? Because vaccinia is milder than smallpox and then you can just simply claim that smallpox was eradicated.

Well, yeah.  We claim smallpox was eradicated because it was. As you yourself have been at extraordinary pains to clarify, vaccinia *isn’t* variola.

Of course, you wouldn’t exactly say that smallpox vaccine had eradicated vaccinia until they stopped deliberately infecting people with vaccinia.

Actually, I wouldn’t say that at all.  Of course smallpox vaccination didn’t eradicate vaccinia; that’s a silly statement.  The doctors did, indeed, stop infecting people with vaccinia once it was no longer necessary to protect them against variola.  

Science Mom,

You claimed: Not exactly, the vaccine strain in OPV has to first revert to wild-type; it cannot cause paralytic polio as the vaccine strain.

You’re a great pretender of science. Read and learn.

Is there a difference in a disease caused by a VDPV and one cause by wild poliovirus or OPV?

No, there is no clinical difference between paralytic polio caused by wild poliovirus, OPV, or VDPV.

Yes and? It is also very rare. Allow wild-type polio circulation to occur; that’s our choice. Except in your magical-thinking realm where only silly people allow their children access to disease or vaccines.

I admire you’re infection-promoting agenda.

I can’t tell if this is de-railing the thread again or not, since Th1Th2 posting anything is derailment anyway, but I just have to say:

Sciencemom@ 199

Here’s a thought for you Jay, how about making it law to provide reasonable maternal leaves? How about making it a law to allow public breastfeeding everywhere? How about making it law that employers provide adequate pumping stations and breaks for breastfeeding mothers?

What’s the html code for standing ovation?

By the way, when Gisele Bundchen’s statements were first published, a commenter on SketpicalOB established via another published interview that Gisele had only breastfed her own baby for a few weeks. I wish I’d saved the posted link back then because I haven’t managed to relocate it today.

And again: standing ovation.

I’ve been thinking about Dr. Jay’s various comments:
Dr. Jay at #67, 3/25 Friday afternoon

The hospitalization details are unavailable. I think that most of them are probably quite “soft” because most doctors are just confounded by this “new” disease

Jay’s comment made me irate, but I wasn’t sure why.

Later on in the discussion, Dr. Jay reveals that over the weekend, he has time to play two games of soccer, take his dog to the beach, and watch sports on TV.

I began to understand my ire.

In other words, Dr. Jay has leisure–he does not have to work another (or a third) job to make ends meet. He isn’t caring for a second or a third or a fourth child, or older family members. He’s not counting the money he has, and from that drawing up the weekly shopping list. He’s not concerned with the worry of doing the week’s laundry outside of the home (you know, are there enough coins for the washer and dryer, what will he do to keep the kids out of trouble while spending a couple of hours at the laundromat, making sure the family’s laundry isn’t just processed but not stolen)…

The freedom Dr. Jay has to spend his time over the weekend suggests his assumptions about what people do on a weekend. In other words, like many =>middle-class folk, Dr. Jay cannot imagine the reality–the daily tasks and worries that people with far fewer economic resources that he commands–must manage.

To get back to the subject of the hospitalized children:What we do know is that all of the hospitalized were children and we can infer that some were infants.

Another thing we can infer is that many of the 11 confirmed cases of measles in Hennepin county are Somali..

And what do we know about the socio-economic status of the Minnesota Somali? Here’s Omar Hassan, owner of Robland Home Healthcare.

“The Somali community, we are new immigrants, most of them are low-income, their education is very poor,…

It’s not that poor folk –even under-educated immigrants– don’t have the will or the desire or even the knowledge to care for their children ill with vaccine-preventable disease. It’s that they do not have the resources, and their children may have better care in hospital.

And that is why high vaccine uptake is not just a public health issue, but a social justice issue.

However, measles is transmitted person-to-person and vaccinia is not.

This isn’t 100% accurate. There have been a few isolated cases of person-to-person vaccinia transmission, but all known cases seem to be related to idiosyncratic medical conditions which made the transmission possible (e.g., eczema.)

In any case, the point still stands, whether or not it ever penetrates Th-troll’s reality distortion field: it is extremely rare for anyone to acquire a transmissible infection through vaccination.

@ Chemmomo,

Thank you.

LW writes:

Sickle cell *is* bad, no scare quotes required. It’s just that malaria is worse. But most people would prefer to fight malaria with drugs and environmental interventions, rather than condemning one child in four to the sort of misery that the sickle cell disease can cause.

I have noticed that Sickle cell also doesn’t go away when it is not needed. I have a friend who’s grown son has Sickle Cell Anemia, he is hospitalized frequently with Vaso-Occlusive Crisis. It hasn’t kept him from getting Malaria, because he has never been exposed to it. What a stupid analogy. In this case I would think any reasonable person would find modern medicine preferable to the “natural” protection afforded by Sickle Cell Anemia.

I just love the argument that severe complications are very rare. The rarity of a disease or condition doesn’t matter at all to a parent who’s child died or was disabled by such a complication (with SSPE the child gets disability *and* death).

I lost my first son to an extremely rare (one in five-million male births), fatal birth defect. Following that I had two children with an ASD. What are the chances? It torks me off no end when somebody dismisses something because it is “rare”. It’s easy to do when it’s just statistics. Every “rare” something happens to somebody and in this case that somebody is a child, that should never be discounted.

Please somebody tell me this new troll is a poe. Anybody?

‘Way up-thread, in comment #115, “Dr. Jay” left another howler:

“…here’s more red meat for you, the measles virus and the infection it creates in strong healthy humans probably improves human health”

Of course, he hasn’t left any citations or references to support that “factoid”. After all, the leopard can’t change his spots.

On the vanishingly small chance that “Dr. Jay” was correct (remembering the aphorism about the blind pig and acorns), I checked the world’s medical and biological literature on measles infection and post-measles health. Here’s what I found:

[1] Wild-type measles causes a persistent immune dysfunction that lasts up to several months. In countries where food and water are often contaminated with pathogenic bacteria and viruses, this leads to a large number of children surviving measles only to die of later infections (usually diarrheal illnesses).

[Note: the measles vaccine strains also cause a much milder immune suppression of much shorter duration. Some strains are worse than others; the strain in current use in the US, UK and most of the EU causes the least immune suppression.]

[2] While infection with wild-type measles gives a stronger and longer-lasting immunity to measles, it hasn’t been shown to provide protection from any other diseases. In short, having the wild-type measles makes you better able to resist measles, but nothing else (and see #1 above).

[3] Any apparent improvement in the overall “health” of a community after a measles outbreak is due to the death of those who have concurrent illnesses (both acute and chronic) and are therefore more likely to die from measles or its secondary immunosuppression. In other words, measles “improves human health” by killing the weak and the sick, not by making individuals more “healthy”.

“Dr. Jay” then segues into a transparent attempt at distraction: “Look! Over there! Children (hypothetically) dying from lack of breastfeeding!”

As has been pointed out numerous times, this is [a] an “estimate” by the WHO based on questionable assumptions and [b] largely due to the problems of contaminated water and contaminated/adulterated baby formula. In addition, at least part of the “breast-feeding deficit” is due to starvation of the mothers.

Even though I hesitate to allow “Dr. Jay” to get away with his distraction, let me point out the the problem of measles is far easier to correct than the problem of breast-feeding. Preventing deaths from measles requires two injections in a life-time. Preventing deaths from “sub-optimal” breast-feeding requires cultural changes, replacement of numerous kleptocratic governments, improvements in farming and food distribution, land ownership reform, etc., etc…

So, “Dr. Jay” would rather that we spend our efforts trying to correct something that may not be correctable, at least with the limited resources of this ‘blog and its readership. I suspect he exhorts us to do this in order to draw attention from the fact that he has – once again – made emphatic statements that are at odds with the facts.

Not to seem uncivil or argumentative, but “Dr. Jay” is, in fact, ignorant about a great many things pertaining to infectious diseases and vaccines. This is not merely my opinion, but documented fact, based on the many obvious and laughable errors that “Dr. Jay” has posted on this very ‘blog.

If “Dr. Jay” would like to learn, I’m sure that there are many people on this ‘blog who could and would instruct him. Unfortunately, his performance to date suggests that he would rather ignore the facts when they disagree with his beliefs. He is the embodiment of the arrogance of ignorance.

Prometheus

The stuff you hear about them is almost beyond belief. No one can be that idiotic, can they? Then along comes Sid, augie, Jay Gordon, and the usual gang of idiots, and you realize, ouch. They can be.

Frank Zappa was right, there is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe.

@250

The hilarious thing is, Gisele specifically stated she stopped breastfeeding for non-health reasons. I’m paraphrasing here, but in the interview I read she said she “didn’t like being stared at while I’m feeding my child at Starbucks”.

That on is not a Poe. See these two links:
Explaining that toddlers know enough to stay on safe sidewalk
and
Avoiding answering how one protects a 9-month old baby from measles when unknowingly encountering an infectious person.

Enjoy the abject cluelessness, and being completely unaware she is full of idiocy. It is either a classic case of Dunning-Kruger or someone who really does live on Htrae (also known as Bizarro World, from Superman comics: a cube shaped planet where everyday is opposite day).

And definitely a troll.

Antaeus F.,

This isn’t 100% accurate. There have been a few isolated cases of person-to-person vaccinia transmission, but all known cases seem to be related to idiosyncratic medical conditions which made the transmission possible (e.g., eczema.)
In any case, the point still stands, whether or not it ever penetrates Th-troll’s reality distortion field: it is extremely rare for anyone to acquire a transmissible infection through vaccination.

How about person-to-cow besides person-to-person transmission? Not possible?

Vaccinia Epidemic and Epizootic in El Salvador

An epidemic involving 22 persons and 450 cows on a dairy farm in El Salvador, in Central America, proved to originate from a newly vaccinated person.

Well, this means that you are arguing from ignorance just like the rest.

Tell me, did a vaccine cause me to be hit by a car?

Odds are the driver of the car that hit you was vaccinated.

Let’s see. Vaccination is only a few centuries old. Surgery goes back to prehistory. I suppose on opposite world, this proves that surgery causes vaccination.

However, measles is transmitted person-to-person and vaccinia is not.

Actually, direct person-to-person transfer of vaccinia was one method used in vaccination. Of course, this is less than ideal, as other blood-borne diseases can transfer at the same time. 19th century medicine wasn’t very ethical by today’s standards…

How about person-to-cow besides person-to-person transmission?

That’s the natural vector for cowpox and vaccinia (it is widely speculated that vaccinia is derived from cowpox, though it might be a closely related sister species). In fact, that’s where the idea of vaccination came from in the first place.

Gray Falcon writes:

Do you understand the concept of probability?

Was that a rhetorical question? 🙂

I mean, the wild-type only paralyzes in 0.5% of all cases.

Th1Th2, take note: We actually correct our errors when shown them. You just continue arguing anything that you think up, even when anyone with a basic sense of awareness can tell they’re wrong.

Well, the effectiveness of OPV vaccine is measured in it’s ability to infect, replicate and mutate in the host’s gut and to be able to transmit the infection to others. That is the goal of OPV inoculation. Anything that would hinder these events would render the vaccine ineffective.

Nope. Mutations aren’t required and the vaccine has already been passaged to limit replication. The effectiveness is measured in it’s ability to do this thing called i-m-m-u-n-o-g-e-n-i-c-i-t-y.

Even a wild-type poliovirus does not always cause paralysis despite it’s known virulence. So what do you call a polio in the absence of paralysis? Polio.

Even OPV very rarely cause paralytic polio, in a proportion of ~0.0001 of recipients, as opposed to ~1% for wild-type. Your point being?

Who the hell would give OPV to immunocompromised recipients? You? You are creating a scenario which is unacceptable just to mislead others for your own cause.

But of course; it’s all part of the global cabal’s conspiracy to keep lonely, housebound, childless wankers busy at their keyboards, feeling important so they are diverted from the real attempt at global mind control.

Or yanno, it is unknown that the recipients are immunocompromised. Their bad bad mummies didn’t put their signs on.

Furthermore, who would stop them from getting infected by poliovirus derived from vaccinated individuals? You? Whatever you answer, you’re still promoting poliovirus infection.

Oh that does happen but spread is very limited. Anyone against vaccination for polio is also promoting poliovirus infection. Pot. Kettle. Black.

I hope that is just as easy for you to accept the fact that wild-type poliovirus also requires the capacity to paralyze. A typical fallacious approach used by many covert germ-denialists is to belittle vaccine-induced infection to promote vaccination while exaggerating natural infection.

Sure, if you say so. The numbers are rather clear on the matter; you can just keep to your speshul world where your non-existent children can keep away from any and all antigens.

Sorry, the last comment was addressed to Th1Th2. Not that he’ll listen, he’ll respond to the version of me in his head.

pseudo-Science Mom,

Nope. Mutations aren’t required and the vaccine has already been passaged to limit replication. The effectiveness is measured in it’s ability to do this thing called i-m-m-u-n-o-g-e-n-i-c-i-t-y.

For someone who is ignorant about immunogenicity, you sure have plenty to say. You don’t have to doubt that OPV replicates and mutates in the gut because it does. The argument really is if this revertant poliovirus virulent enough to cause paralysis because they have the ability to do it.

Read and learn.

Science-based General Rule:

The more similar a vaccine is to the disease-causing form of the organism, the better the immune response to the vaccine.

Live oral poliovirus vaccine (OPV) strains can mutate and recombine during replication in the host.

It is a fact. You’re contradicting it.

Even OPV very rarely cause paralytic polio, in a proportion of ~0.0001 of recipients, as opposed to ~1% for wild-type. Your point being?

So what’s the benefit of acquiring paralytic poliomyelitis? You tell me.

But of course; it’s all part of the global cabal’s conspiracy to keep lonely, housebound, childless wankers busy at their keyboards, feeling important so they are diverted from the real attempt at global mind control.
Or yanno, it is unknown that the recipients are immunocompromised. Their bad bad mummies didn’t put their signs on.

One word: Contraindication. Pleases stop pretending.

Sure, if you say so. The numbers are rather clear on the matter; you can just keep to your speshul world where your non-existent children can keep away from any and all antigens.

There are children who were not vaccinated nor been exposed to polio. What are the numbers/odds of evidence of an existing polio infection? Nada. Instead of abhorring them, you should be glad they are/were not infected.

Th1Th2:

So where are these hospitals that cater only for the unvaccinated?

There aren’t enough unvaccinated to require that.

This.

This what? Try again.

Vaccination is, with its inherent infection-promoting nature, the antagonist of health.

No it isn’t, and you have yet to show otherwise. If what you’re saying is true, why didn’t vaccines cause a visible plague of polio and smallpox. Are you incapable of weighing risks?

Why would the unvaccinated need surgery? Is it because they were unvaccinated? You don’t make sense and you know that even if you analogize it to having car accidents.

Here’s your initial quote:

In a healthy unvaccinated, who needs surgeons?

What the heck were you trying to say? It appeared you were suggesting unvaccinated people didn’t need surgeons! Try to be more clear!
Finally, you really care more about being right than people’s health. If you cared about everyone’s health, you’d realize that more people are in better health with vaccines than without.

In a healthy unvaccinated, who needs surgeons?

What the heck were you trying to say?

It’s a trick statement. Why would any healthy person *need* a surgeon? Maybe they’d want a surgeon for cosmetic surgery, but if you *need* a surgeon, you are by definition not healthy; you are sick or injured.

pseudo-Science Mom,

Nope. Mutations aren’t required and the vaccine has already been passaged to limit replication. The effectiveness is measured in it’s ability to do this thing called i-m-m-u-n-o-g-e-n-i-c-i-t-y.

For someone who is ignorant about immunogenicity, you sure have plenty to say. You don’t have to doubt that OPV replicates and mutates in the gut because it does. The argument really is if this revertant poliovirus virulent enough to cause paralysis because they have the ability to do it.

Ooo, name-calling, particularly from a person who resides in a fictional, sanitised land. OPV does not mutate to the point of causing pathogenesis excepting about 1/million doses. It is not required for the vaccine to work in spite of what you believe, something which you haven’t bothered to provide a whit of evidence for.

Read and learn.

Science-based General Rule:

The more similar a vaccine is to the disease-causing form of the organism, the better the immune response to the vaccine.

You should take your own advice and from your own link:

Another way to produce active immunity is by vaccination. Vaccines interact with the immune system and often produce an immune response similar to that produced by the natural infection, but they do not subject the recipient to the disease and its potential complications. Vaccines produce immunologic memory similar to that acquired by having the natural disease.

“More similar” is not implicit for “the same” as you consistently mistake. As long as the immunogenic antigens are present, immunological memory is induced. This is the case with all live viral vaccines, i.e. they have been passaged to loose their virulence while maintaining those key antigens.

Live oral poliovirus vaccine (OPV) strains can mutate and recombine during replication in the host.

It is a fact. You’re contradicting it.

Au contraire. I specifically stated that OPV vaccine strain can mutate and revert to wild-type. I guess it’s hard when someone gives you an unexpected, straight-forward answer and doesn’t argue a particular point.

Even OPV very rarely cause paralytic polio, in a proportion of ~0.0001 of recipients, as opposed to ~1% for wild-type. Your point being?

So what’s the benefit of acquiring paralytic poliomyelitis? You tell me.

That would be a strawman. There is demonstrable benefit to acquiring immunity to polio without pathogenicity.

But of course; it’s all part of the global cabal’s conspiracy to keep lonely, housebound, childless wankers busy at their keyboards, feeling important so they are diverted from the real attempt at global mind control.
Or yanno, it is unknown that the recipients are immunocompromised. Their bad bad mummies didn’t put their signs on.

One word: Contraindication. Pleases stop pretending.

It’s astonishing how much you can actually type without saying a thing of importance or accuracy. Stating that it isn’t intentional to give immunocompromised people OPV is a contradiction how?

There are children who were not vaccinated nor been exposed to polio. What are the numbers/odds of evidence of an existing polio infection? Nada. Instead of abhorring them, you should be glad they are/were not infected.

Of course there are children who haven’t been exposed to vaccination nor infection…it’s called herd immunity. As an aside, your aversion to any infection or antigen exposure is very unhealthy and is not beneficial.

Here’s why it’s a waste of time to communicate with Th1Th2.  It said,

The USG rescinded routine smallpox vaccination for ~9 years, leaving the herd unprotected despite global threat of smallpox

I answered, in part,

The U.S. was not left unprotected. If you left the country, you were required to be vaccinated against smallpox or you would be quarantined on return.

Th1Th2 gave the puzzling response,

I’m surprised you didn’t even mention the level of herd immunity from smallpox in the absence of routine vaccination for 9 years.

Well, I hadn’t mentioned it because it didn’t seem relevant, Th1Th2 having already stated that the nation was left unprotected because there was no routine smallpox vaccination, and I replied that the nation wasn’t unprotected because they were taking measures to keep smallpox out (which wouldn’t have been practical when it was endemic worldwide, but was once it had been driven back to just a few areas).  But who had gotten routine smallpox vaccination? Mostly children, who had to get it to attend school.  So I replied,

There were a lot of children born in those nine years, plenty to sustain an outbreak if smallpox had been introduced.

Th1Th2 shot back,
 

What part of the USG rescinded routine smallpox vaccination for 9 years do you not understand? So where did you get your so-called herd immunity from?Keep guessing because you know that’s good for you.

This response makes absolutely no sense. A lot of children were born in those nine years.  They were not vaccinated against smallpox. With that many susceptibles, the nation as a whole probably fell below the threshold for herd immunity, and certainly the elementary schools did.  Therefore the disease needed to be kept out, or there would have been outbreaks among the children.  Which is what I said.

Yet Th1Th2 somehow takes some kind of triumph from this conversation. It’s really quite irrational.

pseudo-Science Mom,

Ooo, name-calling, particularly from a person who resides in a fictional, sanitised land. OPV does not mutate to the point of causing pathogenesis excepting about 1/million doses. It is not required for the vaccine to work in spite of what you believe, something which you haven’t bothered to provide a whit of evidence for.

That is a predictable germ-denialist response to sell the OPV because of your love to the poliovirus. Now let’s see your other side being a germ-buster. There are four clinical types of poliomyelitis caused by pathogenic poliovirus; asymptomatic, abortive, non-paralytic and paralytic. Which among these types the OPV does not mutate into that is not pathogenetically caused by poliovirus?

“More similar” is not implicit for “the same” as you consistently mistake. As long as the immunogenic antigens are present, immunological memory is induced. This is the case with all live viral vaccines, i.e. they have been passaged to loose their virulence while maintaining those key antigens.

Now, you’re arguing from ignorance. Name a single vaccine which is not immunogenic? Also, can you tell me why the high titer live attenuated measles vaccine, despite of what you so-called immunological memory caused an increase mortality among the vaccinated?

It’s astonishing how much you can actually type without saying a thing of importance or accuracy. Stating that it isn’t intentional to give immunocompromised people OPV is a contradiction how?

Again, you’re arguing from ignorance. Why don’t you provide some evidence that OPV is not contraindicated among the immunocompromised.

Of course there are children who haven’t been exposed to vaccination nor infection…it’s called herd immunity.As an aside, your aversion to any infection or antigen exposure is very unhealthy and is not beneficial.

Now you’re being silly. The last time I checked, the unvaccinated/non-exposed were being labeled as parasites, unhealthy, susceptible, non-immuned, unprotected, and the main source of infectious diseases.

Wiki:

Herd immunity (or community immunity) describes a form of immunity that occurs when the vaccination of a significant portion of a population (or herd) provides a measure of protection for individuals who have not developed immunity.

Herd immunity and herd effect: new insights and definitions.

We propose that it should have precise meaning for which purpose a new definition is offered: “the proportion of subjects with immunity in a given population”.

Do you have any reason why shouldn’t I call you pseudo-Science Mom?

Th1Th2’s thinking (for lack of a better term) is really bizarre.

“Name a single vaccine which is not immunogenic?” if it weren’t immunogenic, it wouldn’t be a vaccine, would it?

“Which among these types the OPV does not mutate into that is not pathogenetically caused by poliovirus?” What does that even mean?

LW,

Confused.

But who had gotten routine smallpox vaccination? Mostly children, who had to get it to attend school.

More confused.

A lot of children were born in those nine years. They were not vaccinated against smallpox.

I thought my question was clear. Where did you derive herd immunity from in the 9-year absence of routine smallpox vaccination during the 1970’s?

herr doktor bimler: ah, good point.

Opening the small mailbox reveals a leaflet.

Do you have any reason why shouldn’t I call you pseudo-Science Mom?

You can call me anything you like; you have already failed when that’s what you have left.

pseudo-Science Mom,

You can call me anything you like; you have already failed when that’s what you have left.

Because there are evidence that show you are, like this.

Even OPV very rarely cause paralytic polio, in a proportion of ~0.0001 of recipients, as opposed to ~1% for wild-type. Your point being?

I answered. So what’s the benefit of acquiring paralytic poliomyelitis? You tell me.

That would be a strawman.

Strawman? Are you serious? You’re not selling lotto here, are you? Everyone would want to win in the lottery. And the benefit of winning is humongous. But unless they play, they will have zero chance of winning. So if I had asked you about the benefit of winning paralytic poliomyelitis with those numbers/odds you presented to promote vaccines, you would know that some people don’t play thus have zero chance of acquiring polio.

There is demonstrable benefit to acquiring immunity to polio without pathogenicity.

That one right there is absolute germ-denialism. No need to explain further.

Dr Jay, tweeting:

It sounds like your two children very much needed CT scans. They were done carefully and the benefits outweigh any small risks

http://twitter.com/JayGordonMDFAAP/status/52206432162021376

Give that man a banana!

He finally seems to grasp the concept of risk benefit! Now if only he would apply that same knowledge to vaccination.

Th1Th2, if you’re going to talk about benefits and risks, try comparing the benefits and risks of a polio outbreak (still possible) to the benefits and risks of the vaccine.

True, you can’t reason with the unreasonable, but you can show everyone else how unreasonable he is. Seriously, he never answered the big question: If vaccination is as bad as infection, why didn’t mass vaccination lead to polio outbreaks?

what happened to smallpox

They don’t count the afflicted “infected” vaccinated, because they’re vaccinated, of course. And the fact that it hasn’t come back among the unvaccinated has already been cited as further proving the point.

It’s all consistent in a non-reality-connected sorta way.

Heliantus,

The thingy reminds of my first contact with vaccine-deniers, almost 20 years ago.

I do not deny vaccines in the same manner I don’t deny natural infection; they exist and they both have consequences. I can criticize both pro-vax and pro-pox people.

In the real world, we have:
– germs in the wild which sometimes cause diseases, which sometimes cause nasty health effects.

Hence, they are called pathogens.

– live attenuated virus vaccines, which generally do not generate the usual complications from the disease (although sometimes the virus unfortunately reverts to the wild form)

Inoculum made up of pathogens.

– killed-germ vaccines, or vaccines made of part of the germs. Those have no risk whatsoever of giving the illness (unless the manufacturer got sloppy).
To be fair, there are some risks of allergy, e.g. if the vaccine contains egg proteins. A bout of fever is also possible and should be watched for.

Pathogen parts.

All the above three could generate an immune response, and in most cases you won’t get sick twice from the same germ. But infection by the wild germ is carrying higher risks of serious ill effects. Generally much higher, by a thousand times.

Lesser-of-the-two-evil principle. What is so good about evil anyway? Just because you condemn natural infection (rape), you’ll promote vaccination (minor sexual harassment). BTW, both can produce long-lasting memory too.

If you know the history you’ll know that people didn’t “freak out” about measles 40 years ago they way they do now.

No, they freaked out a Hell of a lot more because they had actual experience with it. I don’t have to “know the history” because I’m not only old enough to have had measles but have had recent conversations with my 85yo mother about it. She not only had it but was one of those mothers who “freaked out” in the 50s because her children had it and she knew from personal experience that measles killed, that measles caused pneumonia (remember: before antibiotics), that measles blinded, that measles deafened, and that measles caused brain damage.

This wasn’t an abstract, statistics-that-happened-to-other-people thing in the 1930s. It was something that affected damn near every extended family.

It’s like polio — both my mother and $HERSELF knew people who died of it and people who were crippled by it. I’m just enough younger to have been a beneficiary of the vaccine (I still remember, as discussed with my mother, standing in line at the local high school for my sugar cube). $HERSELF was one of the subjects in the original Salk trials. For which, if you read this, thanks again.

Maybe part of Dr. Jay’s problem is that he never listened to his mother. Which wouldn’t be surprising.

Th1Th2:

Perfect solution? Didn’t you hear me say, For healthy unvaccinated, who needs surgeons?

“Healthy” people can get sick.

Sorry, I cannot come up with an imaginary problem that would warrant surgical referral.

I thought we worked out that was just an analogy. Are you feeling OK?

Th1Th2:

So how do you plan to get sick? You tell me.

That didn’t even vaguely connect to what I was writing in any way, shape, or form. Seriously, are you OK?

“VDPV will remain a risk as long as OPV is used, because it is the OPV itself that creates the risk.”

Which is, of course, why OPV is not used in the U.S. When the risk of polio was greatly reduced, the risks of OPV no longer justified its use, and we switched to IPV.

I second Science Mom. The Thing doesn’t have any sort of brain it is willing to actually use. I’d say it’s like arguing with my dining room table, but that would be insulting to a perfectly serviceable piece of furniture.

True that. I think that the surgeon analogy was enough to push her over the edge, there’s no way anyone can take her seriously now. Still, I can’t help pitying her.

Gray Falcon,

That didn’t even vaguely connect to what I was writing in any way, shape, or form. Seriously, are you OK?

You said healthy people can get sick and I asked you how. Some real world.

LW,

Which is, of course, why OPV is not used in the U.S. When the risk of polio was greatly reduced, the risks of OPV no longer justified its use, and we switched to IPV.

You mean when the wild-type poliovirus was replaced by OPV, the OPV spawned and turned into a new monster they called VDPV? Glad they stopped the OPV. And the IPV? an excess baggage.

The wasn’t hard to understand at all.

>Do you have any reason why shouldn’t I call you pseudo-Science Mom?

For honest people, sheer decency would be reason enough, so no, there is no reason for you not to lie about Science Mom.

By the way, Antaeus Feldspar, I’ve never thanked you for the term “Protocols of the Elders of Allopathic Medicine”. I’ve never used it, but I often think of it while scrolling through troll droppings.

Okay, ThThing. You’ve said that a person knows when they are infected. How does a person know this? When you walk past some asymptomatic person, do you then turn blue or something?

While people are combing through old kid’s television for disease information, maybe they should check out other kid’s entertainment. Comic books, for example. A lot of the old ones are now being republished in hardcover collections, and still have the original ads. These included PSAs for polio prevention.

I just checked Google, and I see that several are available. http://www.politedissent.com/archives/4301 is for kids. http://www.flickr.com/photos/dlanod/132348909/ is the parent’s version.

@Ken- I just saw those, and realized those are from when my parents grew up. They did tell me a bit about that, but one wonders how they slept at night before the vaccine was developed. (shudder)

I think you just redefined asymptomatic to mean “has symptoms” instead of “does not have symptoms”.

JohnV, English must not be her native language. Or she somehow thinks redefining words is acceptable.

Or it is because she actually lives on Htrae, where it is opposite day every day! So obviously symptomatic means no symptoms and asymptomatic means there are symptoms (like coughing, etc)! Got it?

Chris,

Or it is because she actually lives on Htrae, where it is opposite day every day! So obviously symptomatic means no symptoms and asymptomatic means there are symptoms (like coughing, etc)! Got it?

Keep arguing from ignorance Chris, you know that’s best for you.

English must not be her native language. Or she somehow thinks redefining words is acceptable.

Both, unquestionably. The latter is deliberately kept obscured to prolong the interaction. The former is revealed by the not-quite-there idiom with prepositions.

John V.,

That would be a symptom of choking. Was that a trick question?

Yes. There are many causes of cough and and a cough can occur in the absence of an existing infection.

I read the link at #32. All it shows is that Th1Th2 does not understand the difference between “necessary” and “sufficient”.

The trolling behavior was evident when I first phrased the question of a nine month old baby being exposed at a grocery store. She then answered by saying they are more likely to be exposed in a health clinic, so I rephrased it… her response was to avoid all health facilities.

She did not have an answer to the question, so she manipulated to something she thinks she could answer. I dislike being manipulated by a lying troll. If she ever has children, I pity them.

Chris,

She did not have an answer to the question, so she manipulated to something she thinks she could answer. I dislike being manipulated by a lying troll. If she ever has children, I pity them.

In fact I did answer your question long time ago. Check #322 https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2011/03/gobsmacked_by_germ_theory_denialism_agai.php#comments

Keep ignoring Chris, just keep ignoring.

Except, Gray Falcon, she had manipulated me to making the scenario something that she kind of had an answer to. So if I was not ignoring her, I would ask the the question in its original form, and not bow to her silly demands: “How is a parent with a nine-month old child supposed to know that an infected child was at the grocery store just an hour before?”

See, it is not in a health clinic, nor does one have to see if someone is either symptomatic or asymptomatic. Yet, she failed to answer that simple question, and claims I am a germ denier. Definitely a troll.

Take note, Th1Th2 has actually noted that diseases can be both asymptomatic and contagious, but still thinks it’s possible to avoid sick people. Seriously. It’s clear at this point she only cares about everything thinking she’s right.

Chris,

How is a parent with a nine-month old child supposed to know that an infected child was at the grocery store just an hour before?

Stick with science Chris and stop being superstitious and paranoid.

Again, you’re arguing from ignorance. I cannot prove that fairies exist, can you?

And even if the measles virus survived, transmission cannot be proven.

Survival of measles virus in droplet nuclei for over 2 hours has been demonstrated in laboratory studies (5). Although the exact mode of transmission in this instance cannot be proven, transmission via fomites seems less likely than airborne transmission because measles virus is believed to survive only for a short time on dry surfaces (6).

I haven’t read all the comments here, much less from other posts, but is Th1Th2 perhaps a Christian Scientist? One of their beliefs is that all illness is due to sin or fear – in other words, it’s because of something the person did, not an external agent. I am particularly struck by the appendicitis remarks, e.g. #344.

In Japan, there were just recently a whole lot of healthy people who suddenly found themselves in need of medical care. I doubt their vaccination status had much to do with their injuries.

Or it is because she actually lives on Htrae, where it is opposite day every day! So obviously symptomatic means no symptoms and asymptomatic means there are symptoms (like coughing, etc)! Got it?

Keep arguing from ignorance Chris, you know that’s best for you.

It probably won’t come as a surprise to anyone that this phrase Goofus keeps using, “arguing from ignorance,” does not mean what Goofus pretends it means.

“Argument from ignorance” is a fallacy in which an arguer asserts that something is true, not because there is any evidence that it is true, but because there is insufficient proof (at least in the mind of the fallacious arguer) that it isn’t true. The classic example is the creationist argument “I can’t imagine how biological phenomenon X could have evolved. Therefore, because I lack an answer to how it could have happen, there is no answer and it must have been done by special creation.”

Now, Goofus committed the fallacy known as ignoratio elenchi (giving an answer to a question other than the one that was asked) by responding to the question ‘how does [an asymptomatic person] know that they’re infected?’ with the answer ‘when they start showing symptoms.’ Chris caught Goofus at it, and called them on it.

What’s the relation between Chris calling Goofus on their ignoratio elenchi and Goofus claiming that Chris is thereby committing “argument from ignorance”? Simple: There isn’t one.

Antaeus ,

Argument from ignorance” is a fallacy in which an arguer asserts that something is true, not because there is any evidence that it is true, but because there is insufficient proof (at least in the mind of the fallacious arguer) that it isn’t true. The classic example is the creationist argument “I can’t imagine how biological phenomenon X could have evolved. Therefore, because I lack an answer to how it could have happen, there is no answer and it must have been done by special creation.”

Nah. It’s very clear Chris was arguing from ignorance but she kept pretending she didn’t know the answer.

Now, Goofus committed the fallacy known as ignoratio elenchi (giving an answer to a question other than the one that was asked) by responding to the question ‘how does [an asymptomatic person] know that they’re infected?’ with the answer ‘when they start showing symptoms.’ Chris caught Goofus at it, and called them on it.

Now you’re not only a Goofus but also dyslexic if you keep inserting things that weren’t asked in the first place.

@Mike Ralston

So the government has the power to tell a sick man “You are not permitted to work in order to earn enough money to buy food or pay for medical care” and then does NOT have the power to pay for that man’s food and medical care?

There’s a difference between power and the moral authority to do something. Seems the state has the “power to do just about anything. Anyway, the government has the right to tell a man not to rob a bank because it violates the rights of others just as it can act to stop one from knowingly acting in a way in which one could expect to transmit an illness and harm others.
—————

Am I correct, Sid? Is that what you believe is legitimate? The government can force someone to be unable to earn money, but cannot force everyone else to pay a tiny fraction of a cent to care for that same person?

Tiny fraction of a cent? If that were the case, we wouldn’t be 14 trillion dollars in debt

This sick man should have prepared for a potential illness before becoming ill. But then you’ll say affordable health care is impossible to obtain. The solution is to remove the government from the equation so this person doesn’t have to buy a policy with coverage he really doesn’t need or want.

It’s wrong for the government to intervene in the health care market in the first place and it’s wrong to take the of resources one person to pay for the care of another

The moral solution would be to start unwinding the governments role while continuing to provide care for the truly needy.

And, since it sounds like this guy just has a cough, he can take a week off, pay to see a doctor (I don’t see a case for an expensive stay in ICU) or find a job that doesn’t involve food preparation.