Stop CBS from airing anti-vaccine ads on its Times Square JumboTron

NVIC’s text is incorrect. It should read “A 15-second public disservice message…”.

Don’t just mail [email protected], whomp it up to Media Contact and Diffuse Editor [email protected], 212-975-4577.

Emailed Jeremy Murphy, although I am from the UK so whether it will interest him… I did re-iterate in the strongest of terms the global impact of irresponsible broadcasting, particularly in the context of health so fingers crossed. I will sign the petition too.

“Pshaw! Herd immunity doesn’t apply to humans. We aren’t animals or a herd!”

I’ve actually heard someone say this in response to the point about herd immunity. The stupid…it buuuuurrrns!

@Cuttlefish:
Bravo!

Cuttlefish,
Your best yet, IMHO

I don’t usually sign petitions, but this one is worth an exception.

And here’s my anecdote: My daughter just got her final Gardasil shot last week. She complained about a sore arm and some aches for a few days after each shot. Then since the first shot, all the sudden (or something like that) she started being moody and crying for no reason! She doesn’t want to listen, thinks she knows everything and has sudden mood swings! ZOMG teh toxinzzz!!! There is no way this would have happened without the shots.

Oh, and she is less likely to be infected with HPV, which is associated with cervical cancer. So there’s that…

Cuttlefish,
Loved it!

Kristen,
That moody phase: I remember thinking it was at it’s peak (trough?) more than a few times. You never know the actual peak until years later looking back.

Will sign the petition when I get home.

You know, it’s really too bad that the sign was put up by Mercola and NVIC. I really have no problem with the message the sign shows – parents SHOULD get information about vaccines. I DO have a problem with who sponsored the sign because if people contact NVIC or Mercola for the information…yeah, right, you are going to get real scientific information from THEM. (Brain bleach needed after thinking about them).

@Kristen: ah, the moody phase. Let me know when it ends…(mine are 21 and 23…)

@Cuttlefish: wonderful. Wish we could post YOU on the NY sign.

Recent anti-vax strategies by the woo-propagandists ( often in concert**) have all included ways to circumvent the mainstream media***: ads in cinemas, woo-meisters’ sites,”documentaries” spread amongst the faithful, “lectures” in schools/ churches/ bookstores, the direct lobbying of state legislators, protests/ conventions/ press releases, You-tube/ facebook/twitter, and *this*. Yesterday, Adams ( @ NaturalNews)although writing yet again about Fukushima, tells the faithful to not trust the mainstream media for *any* news. Instead, they should turn to the alternate universe media peopled with “truth-tellers” like himself and all of the “usual suspects”. Remember, they have the “studies” and the “science”. ( “Oh, what a tangled web we weave….”) And it *is* a web.

** Mercola/ BLF, NVIC; AoA/ GenRescue; LKH- NJCVC/ protegee of Null, AoA. Adams quotes all unreasonable existing sources & various health freedom sites; other lesser resources ( ThinkTwice) ride coat-tails.

*** I wonder why that is?

@Cuttlefish

I find it very interesting that you declined to include a verse about being advised to eat your veggies. Obviously you are a shill for Big Agri.

Mercola, Fisher, Andrew Wakefield. By their power combined, they are viral reservoir!

Well done, Cuttlefish. I’m off to sign that petition.

Wait. Can non-US-citizens sign internet petitions, or is that one of those rights that got stripped from foreigners?

Works fine. There’s an entry asking for your country. Foreigner signatures are a go!

I refuse to sign. No one, who hasn’t had a child injured by a vaccine, even attempts to understand why we urge parents to KNOW what they are injecting into their children BEFORE they do it. We- whom you label “anti-vaccine” rarely are. I had to learn the hardway about the dangers of these vaccines and had to watch my children suffer, and I cried with them. I shouldnt have been so blind, I shouldn’t have trusted those vaccines were safe. So while people are getting rich off these vaccines, their are children dying, having severe reactions to them and no one cares! Look up at VARES the ammount of vaccine injuries listed, vs. the PROVEN amount of new Hep B cases listed by the CDC. The ads from the CDC says 300,000 new cases in the US each year. The actual numbers of cases listed at the CDC was less than 2% of that. The difference in numbers is staggering.

Stephanie Jones,
I don’t recall anyone in this forum ever saying that vaccines were 100% safe for all people, nor do I recall anyone denying that there can be serious injuries from vaccines.
You state that

You ask for certain tests to be run before you vaccinate your kids, and you are refused as there is “no medical reason” for the tests to be run. Then, after a vaccine injury, you ask again, and they run the test you asked for before, and find HUGE medical issues, and you are then exempt from vaccines for the REST OF YOUR LIFE because they could cause a “major brain injury” in the “future” if they recieve any further vaccinations. An injury which would NOT have happened, if they had given the blood test that was asked for BEFORE they were injured in the first place, but there was no cause for it. Hmmm…. really? Maybe if people were the slightest bit informed of BOTH sides of the story, people would have their kids tested BEFORE vaccination, and fewer injuries would happen.

Can you say what tests are routinely being refused and give some link to data or studies showing how those tests would prevent these injuries?
Thanks.

It is just me, or are Stephanie & Patricia cutting and pasting from the same source (or are the same person)?

Are you sure?

No one should be threatened by parents learning more about what they are injecting into their children’s bloodstreams. If vaccines are harmless, parents who do their research will vaccinate their children anyway. The truth is, most of the people who DO spend years researching vaccinations decide NOT to vaccinate. There is a reason for this. This is America and individuals have the fundamental right to a choice. What choice one person makes shouldn’t affect another…if you get vaccinated because you believe that vaccine works, an unvaccinated person should pose no threat to you. “Herd immunity” was first discovered before vaccinations existed when populations that recovered from a disease developed lifetime immunity. “Herd immunity” was picked up by vaccine manufacturers thereafter and used for their public relations and marketing campaign. It is a theory that scares most into believing vaccinations save the world. Health simply does not come through a needle.

Anyone who allegedly spends years researching vaccines and still does not vaccinate isn’t really researching. Shame on Mercola and company. New Yorkers deserve better than disease spreading idiocy.

It seems that many comments here are astroturfing. I wonder how many different drug manufacturers are represented here?

Stephanie, when do they inject vaccines directly into the bloodstream? Which vaccines are injected directly into a vein?

I’m still waiting for my checks from Merck, can you let me know when they’re coming?

Stehanie, I’d be happy to have a drug manufacturer pay me for my little verse. Sadly, none has offered.

The truth is, most of the people who DO spend years researching vaccinations decide NOT to vaccinate.

Stephanie –

Please justify this comment. Provide us with some examples of which you aware of people who spent years researching vaccinations and decided not to vaccinate.

In particular, please justify your claim that they spent years “researching” vaccinations.

For example, I can find scientific articles published by Paul Offit extending over many years describing the results of his vaccination research if you want, which would provide a basis for my claim that Paul Offit has spent years researching vaccination. I would have to rely moreso on interviews to support my claim that he does have his children vaccinated (I know his son has the Gardisal vaccine even).

There’s one. Your turn.

Stephanie, Patricia

Oh yes, a “safer schedule.” My parents tried that, making up a schedulae as they went along because the man on TV (okay, Barbara Loe Fisher in the 80’s) said it was “too many too soon,” and they thereby missed all the free clinics for TB shots and numerous others. I got my vaccination record and, big shock, I’m missing most of my childhood vaccinations, and now must save up my own cash to get them as an adult.

Where’s my health freedom?

When I get my seasonal flu shot, I’m given a paper document to sign, outlining the possible complications (just the real ones.) I have informed consent. This ad by Fisher and Mercola is misinformed consent. It’s using unfounded fears and unreal dangers, refuted time and again by repeated scientific study, to try to scare parents, like mine, out of vaccinating their kids, like me.

Children are “dying of vaccines?” How about pertussis, TB, measles, and other vaccine preventable diseases? Refusing vaccines in the name of safety is like driving without a seatbelt because you’re afraid it might choke you, while speeding, so you spend less time on the road, fishtailing like mad to try to dodge oncoming traffic. It’s supreme foolishness.

“Do your own research”? I have, unless you mean internet crackpot sites like PrisonPlanet and Natural News. You know, back in the day we used to know the internet was full of crazy conspiracy theories with no foundation in reality. Nowadays, everyone’s talking about Obama not being a citizen and the alien implants up their noses instead. It’s time we remember the internet is an insane asylum with voluntary self-admittance.

It seems that many comments here are astroturfing. I wonder how many different drug manufacturers are represented here?

I represent Bayer. I bought aspirin last week. That must make me a shill.

I can’t help but notice though that you didn’t respond to the posts pointing out your misconceptions based on your lack of knowledge. Instead you just tossed out the Pharma-Shill gambit.

If you can’t get the simple things right (vaccines injected into bloodstream, vaccinated don’t need to fear non-vaccinated, for example), then perhaps you should reconsider if you have the rest of it right.

@Scott

now must save up my own cash to get them as an adult.

What a concept, you, and not the taxpayer, having to pay for your medication

“Do your own research”? I have, unless you mean internet crackpot sites like PrisonPlanet and Natural News.

Yes it’s better to go to sites supported by the drug companies selling the vaccines and the government agencies pushing them

if vaccines are harmless, parents who do their research will vaccinate their children anyway. The truth is, most of the people who DO spend years researching vaccinations decide NOT to vaccinate. There is a reason for this.

Yes there is! Propaganda works!

And no, parents won’t vaccinate their kids if its safe, because there’s tons of misleading antivax propaganda out there designed to fool them, and they don’t know the first thing about how to evaluate scientific evidence.

Parents are a couple of barely adult punk kids playing with hair gel and finding somewhere else on their clothes to fit a silver skull pin. (Mine were, anyway.) Well-meaning they may be, but doctors they are not!

Bridge Troll

What a concept, you, and not the taxpayer, having to pay for your medication

Canadian speaking.

Patricia:

So while people are getting rich off these vaccines, their are children dying, having severe reactions to them and no one cares! Look up at VARES the ammount of vaccine injuries listed,

Please list the PubMed cites of the case studies of the children who have died from vaccines. And then please provide the PubMed cites showing that the vaccines cause more harm than the diseases.

Also, it is VAERS. It is not considered real evidence, just self-reported raw data. That cannot be used as proof until the reports are investigated. It even says so on its website, VAERS Does Not Determine Causality:

Although VAERS can rarely provide definitive evidence of causal associations between vaccines and particular risks, its unique role as a national spontaneous reporting system enables the early detection of signals that can then be more rigorously investigated. VAERS receives reports of many events that occur after immunization. Some of these events may occur coincidentally following vaccination, while others may truly be caused by vaccination. Studies help determine if there is more than a temporal (time) association between immunization and adverse events. The fact that an adverse event occurred following immunization is not conclusive evidence that the event was caused by a vaccine. Factors such as medical history, diagnostic tests, and other medication given near the time of vaccination must be examined to help to determine the cause of adverse events.

And FYI, did you know that the Hep B vaccination, given at birth, causes more injuries to children, than Hep B does yearly in the US??

That way well be true, but how does the sum total of Hep B vaccine injuries + Heb B infection injuries compare to the number of Hep B infection injuries before we started vaccinating?

Has the net result of vaccination been more of fewer injuries? And remember to show your work.

What a concept, you, and not the taxpayer, having to pay for your medication

Becuase, of course, the state has no interest in having a healthy (or even living!) workforce. And, of course, as diseases can’t be transmitted from person to person, you have no possible interest in whether or not your neighbour comes down with tuberculosis, right?

If the guy making your morning bagel has a persistent cough that he can’t afford to get treated, there’s no way that could affect you in any way that might make sense for you to contribute towards his healthcare. It’s all very well saying that his boss is *probably* paying *some* of those costs, and passing the cost onto you, but how much effort do you go to to make sure that’s true?

@ Sid Offal: We’ve been missing you on this blog; Augie, One Gay Fish, prn and other trolls have been doing all the “heavy lifting” for you.

Stephanie and Patricia have to be the same trolls who are lifting their comments from an anti-vax site. It is entirely too coincidental that they both use the misspelled words, mangled sentences and pseudo-scientific arguments.

We are still awaiting the vaccines “that are injected into the bloodstream”…must be a new type of vaccine, that we never heard of.

Late to the party, but Cuttlefish – brilliant.

“No one should be threatened by parents learning more about what they are injecting into their children’s bloodstreams.”

Er – are you really injecting shite into your kids’ bloodstreams? Without knowing in advance what it is? You should probably stop.

IM vaccinations by a doc or RN are fine, as are things like SC insulin if they’re diabetic.

(I tutor as part of a partnership with a local school – my tutee was telling me, a few weeks ago, how jealous she is of her younger schoolfellows, who get vaccinated for chicken pox. She got it and couldn’t sit or lie down comfortably for a week. We swapped chicken pox stories.

I got the HepB vaccine when I started getting serious about tattoos and piercings. I’m careful about finding parlors that have clean prcedure rooms, autoclave their tools, and can show me their autoclave and current autoclave inspection cerificiate, but HepB is just ridiculous in its ability to survive outside of the body.

Needless to say, thanks to mom and dad and the generations who came before, I’ve never had smallpox, polio, whooping cough, measles, mumps, rubella, or tetanus (and considering how many rusty nails I’ve stepped on or been stabbed by, the latter is saying something). Vaccines are made of win.)

Please justify this comment. Provide us with some examples of which you aware of people who spent years researching vaccinations and decided not to vaccinate.

I can. Of course, in order to make this statement true, I have to redefine the word “research.” If, by “research”, you mean “read secondhand approved anti-vaccination sources”, which is generally what is meant by anti-vaccinationists, then it’s a perfectly true statement.

You know, it’s really too bad that the sign was put up by Mercola and NVIC. I really have no problem with the message the sign shows – parents SHOULD get information about vaccines.

Oh, I have a problem with the first panel. “Vaccines: Know the Risks.” There’s a certain… something missing.

There is a difference, albeit subtle, between people who have “researched” the issue and people who don’t have enough information to make what could reasonably be considered an informed choice.

To wit, the Somali immigrant community in Mpls.-St. Paul, where a recent measles outbreak was traced to a child who imported the disease from Kenya and spread it to children who were either too young to be vaccinated or hadn’t been vaccinated because of fears of autism.

According to this article (link below), many Somali mothers are being manipulated by none other than Andrew Wakefield to fear the MMR vaccine and blame their children’s autism on the vaccine. It’s a great read:

http://www.thedaily.com/page/2011/04/11/041111-news-measles-1-5/

If there’s a higher incidence of autism among Somali children after they immigrate to the U.S., it’s concerning. But I’d want to be looking at a whole lot of other possible reasons for this. By insisting that it’s gotta be the fault of the vaccines, the vaccine scaremongers are doing a disservice to objective research.

Wow, that’s some seriously puerile taste on display.

72

@RJ #70 – Easy there. That Down Syndrome joke is not that funny.

You’re right. Soon after I posted it I realized that saying that anybody looks like JB Handley goes too far. My apologies.

A Few Observations about Sid Offal’s Blog:

He opens up the R.I. site this AM, plagiarizes Orac, goes on a rant and puts it out there for comments. (Hint Offal) if two of the three comments slam your viewpoint, that’s bad.
If the third comment is by you, that’s very bad.

Offal, if you are posting more frequently (5) on this blog that you plagiarized this AM, that’s just very, very, bad.

Science Mom,

So many canards, so little time. Which vaccines are IV injected Stephanie? Is that what your “years of research” fetched you?

Intravenous pertussis vaccine and you wouldn’t dare.

The influence of the route of immunization on the protection of mice infected intracerebrally with Bordetella pertussis.

The development of immunity in mice to Bordetella pertussis induced by intracerebral, intravenous,or intraperitoneal vaccination was analysed in terms of the viable bacteria in the brain after intracerebral challenge, the serum antibodies, and protection against the sublethal infection of the lung that follows intranasal inoculation.A vaccine introduced intracerebrally was five to ten times more effective than that given intraperitoneally or intravenously, as measured for each route by the amount of vaccine required to protect half the mice against an intracerebral challenge 14 days later (ImD 50). Intracerebral vaccination induced higher antibody titres than vaccination by the other two routes[…]

Scared of science, er?

No dear, it doesn’t quite work like that. You see, susceptible people keep entering the herd, drat that. Herd immunity is an epidemiological theory which explains, quite nicely I might add, how to prevent susceptibility.

And how exactly do you define the herd, this?https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2011/03/dr_jay_and_argumentum_ad_populum.php#comments

Of course there are children who haven’t been exposed to vaccination nor infection…it’s called herd immunity.

That is a typical scientific wild ass guess that surely fits your name.

The development of immunity in mice to Bordetella pertussis induced by intracerebral, intravenous,or intraperitoneal vaccination…

Please note the all-important word “mice”. Maybe you could tell us what vaccines are given to humans intracerebrally or intraperitoneally.

Scared of science, er?

My God, are you dumb.

Thingy: What vaccines are injected directly into the bloodstream? Please provide citations.

p.s. what is “herd immunity ” , sounds allright with animals-same species -same locale , but a bit counter-intuitive with humans . Can some one explain that one ?
At any rate I bel;ieve the anti-immunization crowd arew misinformed and misled . Hadn’t the British researchers who claimed there was a connection between normal childhood immunizations and autism , been proven incorrect ? Even fraudulent ?

Magnetic North, hepatitis b is not as dire for adults as it is for young children. Those who get it young tend to get the chronic form of the disease. Read more here.

Th1Th2:

Intravenous pertussis vaccine and you wouldn’t dare.

Citation required.

Magnetic North, here is a video on herd immunity.

I’m anti-compulsory vaccine.

Well, given that the U.S. has no compulsory vaccines, what are you bitching about? A novel sense of “compulsory,” perhaps? “Mandatory”? “Too strongly recommended”?

@Narad

Well, given that the U.S. has no compulsory vaccines

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_United_States
Schooling is compulsory for all children in the United States, but the age range for which school attendance is required varies from state to state

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1497722/pdf/16134564.pdf
Laws requiring children to be vaccinated before school entry have helped the United States achieve high overall vaccination rates.

So we have compulsory schools and compulsory vaccination to attend those compulsory schools yet no compulsory vaccination.

And even in states such as Virgina, homeschooled children are still subject to compulsory vaccination; so what are you talking about?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling_in_the_United_States

Th1Th2, you said “You said “Intravenous pertussis vaccine and you wouldn’t dare.”

Injecting in the muscle and just below the skin is not intravenous. Diffusing slowly into the bloodstream from the muscle or from just below the skin is not intravenous.

Now a cite for your claim of “Intravenous pertussis vaccine.”

Remember, you are not allowed to redefine words.

Thank you for posting this. I immediately sent an e-mail to make sure this helpful ad is run.

I personally know children who have been harmed by vaccines, and on the advice of my pediatrician, nurse practitioner, and chiropractor have not vaccinated my children. They are much healthier than many of their vaccinated friends.

I feel it’s important for people to be aware of the possible dangers before they subject their children (or themselves) to medical treatments of any kind.

@Narad

Compulsory school + compulsory vaccination to go to school = compulsory vaccination

@Rene
I don’t want a list of ingredients. I don’t want safer vaccines (I think that under the current system they’re as safe as they’re likely to get)And I don’t expect 100% safety. As I’ve said before I just don’t see the risk reward favoring vaccines. But as to those who see it differently, I encourage them to vaccinate. Regardless, it seems were irreconcilably divided on this issue.

CG,

Thingy is exhibiting the standard level of dishonest/idiocy.

No human vaccine is given IV.

Are you sure?

The intravenous injection of typhoid vaccines is being used in the developed typhoid fever (E. Fraenkel, 1876; Gay and Chickering, 1916; Hektoen, 1916) and especially against rheumatic fever. It often induces a crisis and prompt recovery. The action is probably not due to specific antibodies, for similar effects are produced by other vaccines, albumoses, etc. (J.L. Miller and Lusk, 1916; Jobling, 1917). It is apparently a result of the fever.

Use in Rheumatic Fever. – The intravenous injection of the typhoid vaccine is followed, after one-half to one hour, by a chill, lasting 15 to 30 minutes, with headache and nausea, fast pulse, cyanosis. This is followed by sweating and relief of the joint pains. The temperature reaches its maximum in 3 to 4 hours, and returns to normal withoin 48 hours after injection. The leucocytes show a transient fall, then a marked rise, with its maimum 6 hours after injection. The blood pressure rises during the chill, then falls for 3 or 4 hours. The urine shows no special changes.

Mephistopholes, you are so full of crap even saying, per post 27, that “no one here ever said there couldn’t be serious side effects with vaccines.” You “science/research people” dance all around it and use stupid terms like “autistic like symptoms” and encephalopathy and pretend that those really don’t equate to vaccine injuries. Why don’t YOU make a list of all possible problems that could happen as a possible consequence of being given a vaccine ( and try to think of some real life scenarios- like being given the wrong vaccine -like the poor baby given Gardasil instead of dpt, low-birth weight babies (premies) given hep b, dpt etc., kids with immune problems being given too many vaccines at once, sick kids being given vaccines, nurses giving someone a vaccine in a multi-dose vial and not shaking it up enough, not refrigerating vaccines that need to be. Thanks in advance ; )

Jen:

( and try to think of some real life scenarios- like being given the wrong vaccine -like the poor baby given Gardasil instead of dpt, low-birth weight babies (premies) given hep b, dpt etc., kids with immune problems being given too many vaccines at once, sick kids being given vaccines, nurses giving someone a vaccine in a multi-dose vial and not shaking it up enough, not refrigerating vaccines that need to be.

Please show those are common problems in Canada, USA, Australia, Japan and Europe. I mean more than once.

Also, what pediatric vaccines are still commonly given that are in multi-dose vials in Canada, USA and Europe? Provide cites. Thank you.

Absolutely, Robert.

Sid, public school is not compulsory. School itself is. You may choose public, private, or parochial schooling, or you can home school. Do all private schools require you to vaccinate? How about the parochial ones? Is there a mandatory vaccine list for home schoolers?

Signed the petition.

Thingy: I’m still waiting for “intravenous administration of pertussis” citation. Intradermal means beneath the skin and is only used to inject a small amount (0.1 ml) of an antigen such as TB PPD (Purified Protein Derivative) with a thin needle bevel facing upward. Done correctly, the PPD raises a small wheal beneath the skin. It is not a vaccine; it is called the Mantoux test and done to screen people for exposure to the tuberculosis bacterium. The patient returns to the doctor or nurse for a reading of the size of induration, if any, within 72 hours. Doctors and nurses also test people for allergies, using the intradermal route, to inject a small amount of an antigen, to test for reactions.

Thingy, we know you have “a thing” about antigens and antibodies…being the same thing…in your mind…but they aren’t.

Give it up Thingy, all vaccines are injected using the subcutaneous or intramuscular route.

lilady,

Intradermal means beneath the skin[…]

Oh shoot. I wonder how you passed A&P.
Intradermal means within or between the layers of the skin. And what lies beneath the skin are the subcutaneous tissue and the muscles.

Intradermal means within or between the layers of the skin. And what lies beneath the skin are the subcutaneous tissue and the muscles.

And neither of those are intravenous.

Chris,

Injecting in the muscle and just below the skin is not intravenous.

It’s intramuscular and the vaccine contents are carried into the bloodstream.

Diffusing slowly into the bloodstream from the muscle or from just below the skin is not intravenous.

Again, it is intramuscular. You want a faster route into the bloodstream than IM or SC then go for the IV. Nobody is stopping you however the package inserts do not recommend IV for humane reason (hint: can be a lethal injection). Parenteral vaccines are administered into areas which are highly vascularized i.e. abundant blood supply found in the deltoid. You deny this and you are nothing but an uneducated person who always pretends to know science.

dedicated lurker,

And neither of those are intravenous.

You can also add the different blood vessels (capillaries, arteries, veins) which are found beneath the skin. Do you have any problem with that?

lilady,

Thingy in the nursing/medical profession “intradermal” injections are only used as I outlined above; but you wouldn’t know that, having received all your education from Google U.

Anybody with a brainstem knows that PPD is injected within or between the layers of the skin and NOT beneath the skin as you have outlined above. You are very dangerous old nurse both in theories and more so in practice.

I don’t mind really if you admitted your mistake.

other routes, such as sub-lingual or via rectum

“Suppository” does not mean “the room where I dream stuff up”.

Intradermal means beneath the skin and is only used to inject a small amount (0.1 ml) of an antigen such as TB PPD (Purified Protein Derivative) with a thin needle bevel facing upward.

I was under the impression that rabies shots are administered intradermally these days (presumably to present the antigen to the langerhans cells — I haven’t looked it up). Certainly an advance on the old intraperitoneal form of rabies shots.

In that connection, I have noticed that the homeopaths and naturopaths are not offering a ‘natural’ alternative to rabies injections, even though there are homeopathic substitutes for every other form of immunisation, and despite the purported efficacy of naturopathy. Why is this?

I personally know children who have been harmed by vaccines

Let me guess. A carton of the stuff fell on their heads from a shelf.

Remember, you are not allowed to redefine words.

You people are all politically-sound and inclusive and all so you say “So-and-so is redefining words”. I find it more parsimonious to leave the words with their consensus meanings and say “So-and-so is lying”.

Every parent must research & question everything that directly affects their babies. This is a parent’s right!

No doctor, government, vaccine/drug pusher, anti-vaccinationist can govern or dictate this issue & enforce their views on every parent or else we might as well be living in a tyrannical dictatorship!

If a person were to say that he/she knew better or that his/her views are right, then that may be so only in his/her own opinion & is definitely not argument enough to allow for him/her to infringe action on to a parent. And no amount of college/university degrees (medical or otherwise) will convince a parent to do something that they do not wish to do…

The right way forward however could be to present all the facts & leave parents to make their choices…

This is undebateably the perogative of a free man/woman because as intelligent beings, we are all capable of making informed decisions & we are all allowed our opinions.

As a parent, I know that I have a choice & no one, no matter which side of the fence they play dirty from, will stop me from exercising it on myself or my own, period!!!

HRIG (Rabies Immuno-globulin) is administered surrounding a wound inflicted by a known rabid animal or an animal that is not captured and tested. It is not a vaccine. Rabies vaccine is administered in a series of 5 IM shots, post exposure to a known rabid animal or an animal with unknown rabies status. Rabies vaccine is always given IM in the deltoid muscle in children and adults and IM in the anterio-lateral muscle of the thigh of infants with suspected or known rabies exposure.

Thingy posted a few weeks ago and showed his confusion about antigen being different than antibody, IV versus IM infusions, HRIG being different than Human Rabies Vaccine and Tetanus IG being different than Tetanus Vaccine. He also advanced his “theories” about post-exposure prophylaxis. We wasted posting time on him then and his basic lack of knowledge about the diseases, ignorance of the basics of bacteriology and general idiocy.

@ Herr Doktor Bimler: Actually Thingy dreams things in his minimally functioning brain; his ass is where he pulls his factoids from

All we ask, is for SAFER vaccines, not that they be eliminated.

When the definition of safer is “never has any complications in anyone ever, AND cures autism with 100% efficacy” that IS demanding that they be eliminated.

We ask for fair compensation in the courts- where only one in six cases actually wins because we can’t afford to fight the system for an average of 10 YEARS

The OAP was an exceptional case, purely due to the fact that the claimants were allowed to present unsubstantiated speculation, and given many years to come up with MORE garbage (at their own request). Normal cases – you know, the ones that aren’t just made up for the benefit of the lawyers and supposed “experts” with minimal (or no) qualifications – are much faster. So this is another outright lie.

Every parent must research & question everything that directly affects their babies. This is a parent’s right!

Not the point. The point is antivax idiots LYING to parents in ways that are all to likely to KILL the babies in question for NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER!

And no amount of college/university degrees (medical or otherwise) will convince a parent to do something that they do not wish to do…

The fact that the overwhelming mountain of evidence for the safety and efficacy of vaccination is opposed by nothing but lies, fraud, and coincidence, on the other hand, should. And DOES convince all parents who are genuinely informed (as opposed to those who are lied to, deceived, and defrauded by the antivax morons).

The right way forward however could be to present all the facts & leave parents to make their choices…

And yet, you support lying to the parents instead of presenting facts. Why is that?

I wonder why auggie doesn’t trust vaccines, antibiotics, or Tylenol, but was still willing to put their child in an NICU. If science-based medicine is that bad, why would you leave a child in a place that uses the most state of the art of such?

Th1Th2:

You can also add the different blood vessels (capillaries, arteries, veins) which are found beneath the skin. Do you have any problem with that?

You were told not to redefine words. You still need to tell us what vaccines are injected into veins (which is what intravenous means), especially evidence of “intravenous administration of pertussis.” Injecting under the skin or into the muscle is not going into a vein.

Try to pretend you live on Earth, and speak/write standard English (American or UK).

“I wonder why auggie doesn’t trust vaccines, antibiotics, or Tylenol, but was still willing to put their child in an NICU. If science-based medicine is that bad, why would you leave a child in a place that uses the most state of the art of such?”

Dedicated Lurker, I was thinking the exact same thing! My daughter was a pretty healthy two-pounder, but still she needed antibiotics, a spinal tap, surfactant, caffeine, two blood transfusions, and numerous x-rays. Not to mention vent, cpap, and nasal cannula to help her breathe. Kids her gestation often need a lot more, and have to deal with brain bleeds, holes in their hearts, and eye surgery. How did auggie deal with these interventions?

And 105 degree fever? I hope to hell he gave that kid something to bring that thing down. I can’t imagine the pain/ misery level of a fever that high.

So, Th, when you swallow a pill, after it heads into the stomach, gets digested, moves to the small intestine, and gets absorbed into the blood stream, is that considered intravenous? After all, it gets into the blood too.

Any relation to Homulus?

That means nothing to me.

If the guy making your morning bagel has a persistent cough that he can’t afford to get treated, there’s no way that could affect you in any way that might make sense for you to contribute towards his healthcare

Bagel boy’s boss needs to tell him to go home. If he’s noticibly infectious and still working that would actually be a legitimate spere into which the government could enter

It’s good to know that no-one ever spread a disease before they were “noticably infectious”. That must make the CDC’s job trivially easy.

You encounter many people throughout the day, any number of which could be carrying a horrible infections disease. Perhaps they’ve just just been sent home from work for sneezing on a customer’s food; perhaps someone in your office is shedding viruses, but hasn’t started showing symptoms yet.

The point is that it is in your interest to ensure that the people around you are as healthy as possible. Why would you *not* want want to spend money towards that goal?

dedicated lurker,

What do I have to refute if oral drugs are being absorbed within the veins of the GI tract ? That’s a no-brainer.

Th1Th2, I have a bit of advice, something I learned from painful experience. You don’t always have to be right. After you claimed that vaccines are delivered intravenously and you were shown to be wrong, the proper response was to apologize and correct your errors, not attempt to redefine “intravenous”.

And even in states such as Virgina, homeschooled children are still subject to compulsory vaccination; so what are you talking about?

OK, I wasn’t aware of the Virginia requirement. Leaving aside the seemingly trivial religious exemption, what’s the penalty, which is to say, the compulsion?

I didn’t know I ate intravenously. You learn something new every day. *IV burp*

Th1Th2:

Since you never injected yourself with Tequila therefore you can tell the police officer you’re not driving under the influence and you’re innocent eh?

Only if intoxicated was defined as “having had alcohol injected directly into the bloodstream”. Since it isn’t, no.

The body reacts very differently to the same substance if injected into muscles or the bloodstream, so the distinction is not trivial.

The body reacts very differently to the same substance if injected into muscles or the bloodstream, so the distinction is not trivial.

Of course, Thingy is well aware of this. S/he earlier stated that (for some, as-yet unspecified drug, the manufacturors

…do not recommend IV for humane reason (hint: can be a lethal injection).

Of course, she used this as proof that those drugs were being used IV, so coherence doesn’t seen be be hir strong point…

If you want to argue with me then refute the fact that the pertussis vaccine in #77 and the typhoid vaccine in #99 were given intravenously and were absorbed within the veins. Put up or shut up.

Refuted by many commenters.
#77 – “mice” – remember? What about those vaccines that were injected into the brain?
#99 – a non-specific pyrogen, to induce a fever as an obsolete treatment of rheumatic fever. This is now treated with penicillin.
Neither of these have anything to do with vaccination to prevent disease.

You really are dumb.

@Mike Ralston

So the government has the power to tell a sick man “You are not permitted to work in order to earn enough money to buy food or pay for medical care” and then does NOT have the power to pay for that man’s food and medical care?

There’s a difference between power and the moral authority to do something. Seems the state has the “power to do just about anything. Anyway, the government has the right to tell a man not to rob a bank because it violates the rights of others just as it can act to stop one from knowingly acting in a way in which one could expect to transmit an illness and harm others.

—————
Am I correct, Sid? Is that what you believe is legitimate? The government can force someone to be unable to earn money, but cannot force everyone else to pay a tiny fraction of a cent to care for that same person?

Tiny fraction of a cent? If that were the case, we wouldn’t be 14 trillion dollars in debt

This sick man should have prepared for a potential illness before becoming ill. But then you’ll say affordable health care is impossible to obtain. The solution is to remove the government from the equation so this person doesn’t have to buy a policy with coverage he really doesn’t need or want.

It’s wrong for the government to intervene in the health care market in the first place and it’s wrong to take the of resources one person to pay for the care of another

The moral solution would be to start unwinding the governments role while continuing to provide care for the truly needy.

And, since it sounds like this guy just has a cough, he can take a week off, pay to see a doctor (I don’t see a case for an expensive stay in ICU) or find a job that doesn’t involve food preparation

When I had a typhoid shot I recall it being intramuscular, not intravenous. According to Wikipedia, this dead vaccine is injected either under the skin or into a muscle. According to http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/meds/a607028.html there is also a live oral vaccine. Anything referring to an intravenous treatment would seem to have lost relevance.

Mephistopheles O’Brien, Th1Th2 lives in her own special version of Htrae, with her own special dictionary where she gets to define the words. Reality is what she wants it to be, which makes her so very special.

And, since it sounds like this guy just has a cough, he can take a week off, pay to see a doctor (I don’t see a case for an expensive stay in ICU) or find a job that doesn’t involve food preparation

Yeah, this is why we have actual doctors instead of know-nothings on the internet making these diagnoses.

Have you heard of, for example, tuberculosis? Do you know what the primary early symptom is?

Boy, Thingy sure is bringing back memories for me today. IV Alcohol. Haven’t thought about that one in YEARS! It used to be used to stop preterm labor. Not fun – the women usually were very unhappy drunks. But, it would often stop labor for a while.

Um…Thingy…since EVERYTHING you eat, drink, rub on your skin, etc is eventually absorbed into your circulatory system (not necessarily by the veins, usually venuoles and arterioles, capillaries, etc), what’s your point? Yes, vaccines do eventually enter the circulatory system, in order to stimulate the immune system. Then, like most things, they are processed and excreted. HOWEVER, that does NOT equal intravenous administration.

Now, be an intelligent person, quit changing the meanings of things (Humpty Dumpty is fiction, you know), and be honest.

Yes, Thingy. There usually IS a reason that medications/vaccines/whatever are given the way they are. The speed of absorption differs in routes. An IV drug is immediately available and the body usually breaks it down in the liver/kidneys/etc quite quickly. IM/oral/topical drugs are absorbed and processed more slowly. Giving a vaccine IV would probably mean the body does not have time to create an immune response before the small amount of usually non-live antigens are broken down and excreted.

Now, more questions? That one was actually an intelligent question. Good Thing. I’m proud of you.

Tiny fraction of a cent? If that were the case, we wouldn’t be 14 trillion dollars in debt

The entire National Debt is due to healthcare costs? All those foreign wars are free of cost?

Is that really what you’re saying?

Th1Th2,

I’m sure there is a reason they don’t recommend intravenous injection. There may well be multiple reasons.

I make no claim as to what happens to a substance once it is injected either subcutaneously or intramuscularly.

Thingy, I am not a docter at all, and even I know that the word “intravenously” means injected DIRECTLY into a vein. By directly we (as in everyone) means that the end of the needle is in the vein, and the contents move directly from the needle to the vein. If it is injected into musscle tissue, or or anywhere onther then DIRECTLTY INTO THE VEIN, it is NOT considered intravenous. Even if it eventually ends up in the vein, it is NOT intravenously if the END OF THE NEEDLE IS NOT IN THE VEIN. Otherwise, even eating would be considered intravenous.
By the way, confine your disscussion to within the last 10 years. 90 years ago doesn’t count.

(apoligies for the all caps, but I don’t know how to use bold text)

According to Thingy’s definition, the tacos I ate for supper count as intravenous feeding because the contituents didn’t remain solely in my stomach and traces of it entered my bloodstream.

I thereby demonstrate that the definition he’s using is too broad to be meaningful, and suggest that it should therefor be deprecated.

— Steve

“You are such an embarrassment. ”

Pretty ironic from the poster whose “everything is ultimately IV” claims are destined to become a classic punchline here, so overused that I will get tired of it and eventually cconsider it lame. Until then, however, I will continue to take my jelly beans intraveneously.

The sad part is that this isn’t even really Thingy’s fight. Research savvy Stephanie was the one who opened the subject and thingy stupidly tried to defend it.

Spencer, if vaccines were in fact, dangerous and useless, what happened to polio? Why aren’t we having epidemics of it anymore?

Now do vaccine ingredients enter the bloodstream or stay in sutu in the muscle or subcutaneous tissue?

The 3rd alternative, of course, is “neither” — the antigens and ingredients are metabolised, or taken up by immune-system cells, or otherwise disposed of.
In the case of pre-exposure intradermal injections for typhoid and rabies, the antigens apparently drain into the lymphatic system where they encounter CD4 cells and T-cells and do their job (I had to look this up).

If only I was sure that the question showed a genuine desire to be informed.

Probably? Oh shoot. It’s called anaphylaxis, a type of immune reaction that has an acute onset which can lead to shock and death.

Which would be why we don’t do that. Thanks for proving yourself wrong.

If you ask Chris, she’ll tell you these injected substances stay as is.

Seriously, you don’t wanna make a claim because you don’t wanna get embarrassed for not knowing (or refusing to admit) that vaccine ingredients could enter the bloodstream.

No, no-one’s claiming that. Chris (along with everyone who isn’t you) is claiming that just because it eventually gets to the bloodstream doesn’t qualify it for the label “intravenous”.

I have been sitting here catching up on the last few hours of this thread and my jaw keeps dropping involuntarily. Holy crap! I’ve never read anything so stupid that wasn’t a poe or parody.

I’m going to go get some I.V. fresh air and try to rid myself of my sudden feelings of shame for being the same species as a person this willfully imbecilic.

Yes, I said “Injecting under the skin or into the muscle is not going into a vein.”

Look at the tense, the word is “is”, which is present tense. That means at the moment. That means at the moment the needle is being used and the syringe is being pressed. I did not use the future version of “will not go into the vein.”

At no time did I deny that the ingredients will not at some point enter the vein (usually in a modified form). At no point does the needle enter the vein. It is where the needle goes that defines “intravenous”, it has nothing to do with the eventual destination of the vaccine.

Stop torturing the English language.

It occurs to me that a tour through Th1Th2’s mind would be like going on a carnival fun house ride.

Th1Th2:

So you deny intravenous vaccinations in #77 and #99 to have ever happened?

No, we are denying that they have nothing to do with the way vaccines are given in 2011. But you have been told that more than once.

Again, stop torturing English. While it may work on Htrae, you are looking like an complete idiot here on Earth.

Did you hear about the poor kid in Australia who was inadvertently vaccinated with the Gardasil vaccine and now has leukemia? Gross. Oh, but it could be a coincidence I hear you crying. Ya, and monkeys might fly out of my butt, too.

Goofus presents a fascinating opportunity to examine the anti-logical world of an anti-vaxxer’s mind. Goofus apparently thinks that we should take as a given that it is not, could not be coincidence for a child given a Gardasil vaccine to develop acute myeloid leukemia nearly two years later. Because it could not be coincidence, Goofus argues, it must therefore be cause-and-effect.

But let’s look at what Goofus’ rejection of coincidence as a possible explanation implies. If there was no cause-and-effect relationship between Gardasil and AML, we should expect that there would still be cases of people who receive Gardasil and then develop AML within the following two years. Even if only one person in fifty received Gardasil and only one person in every hundred thousand developed AML, we would still expect one in every five million to have both. That’s what coincidence is, things which can happen individually happening together even without a cause-and-effect relationship!

But when Goofus says that it cannot be coincidence for this youngster to develop AML, what she is saying is that AML never develops other than as a result of Gardasil. Which, since AML has been around for several times as many years as Gardasil has been, is obviously false!

It is a choice,end of story!

You’re right. I should have said “That would be why we don’t do that in humans.” Of course, if we’d never done the mouse studies, we’d not know that there was a reason not to inject them intravenously; would you prefer that scenario?

My apologies for thinking you could infer* context from other people’s posts.

* In this case, I’m using “infer” to mean “read the plainly written words”.

Th1Th2

Seriously, you don’t wanna make a claim because you don’t wanna get embarrassed for not knowing (or refusing to admit) that vaccine ingredients could enter the bloodstream.

Ummm…no. The reasons I don’t make a claim are:
a) the last biology class I took was some time ago;
b) that class did not discuss this level of detail; and
c) as I don’t work with this every day, I can’t say in detail how the body processes an intramuscular or subcutaneous injection.

I suppose the various ingredients could enter the bloodstream. And?

Myself:

No, we are denying that they have nothing to do with the way vaccines are given in 2011. But you have been told that more than once.

Aaagh… stupid double negative! We are denying they have anything to do with the way vaccines are given in 2011.

I must be mixed up with Th1Th2’s malapropisms.

herr doktor bimler,

The 3rd alternative, of course, is “neither” — the antigens and ingredients are metabolised, or taken up by immune-system cells, or otherwise disposed of.
In the case of pre-exposure intradermal injections for typhoid and rabies, the antigens apparently drain into the lymphatic system where they encounter CD4 cells and T-cells and do their job (I had to look this up).
If only I was sure that the question showed a genuine desire to be informed.

Neither? You’re kidding right? If it is so, then I assume you’re a bloodless creature made up of lymph or just pure gas. Which one is it?

LW,

By the way, Th1Th2, I assume that on your planet there is a term for the method of drug administration that involves places a needle in a vein and injecting substances into that vein. What is that term?

Cut the nonsense. Check #77 and #99.

Thingy – perhaps you can find a junkie who can educate you on the fine points of the benefits and drawbacks of the intravenous administration of drugs.

Like vaccines and vaccinators, keep the drugs and drug pushers out of children’s reach.

5.5 Parenteral
There is no therapeutic use for parenteral cocaine administration.
Drug abusers inject cocaine hydrochloride subcutaneously, intramuscularly or intravenously alone or with heroin (“speedball”) or with other drugs (Jeri, 1984; Cregler & Mark,1987).

They are dangerous.

Heliantus,

Well, if you define “injected into the bloodstream” as “eventually arriving there”, notwithstanding the time between the injection of the vaccine components into a muscle and their slow release into adjacent tissues…
I think we should call a car an instantaneous teleporting gate. Same business.

No, they are not the same. Imagine without the bloodstreams, vaccination will be even more barbaric than we have hitherto since it will involve incision of the lymph nodes or the spleen to deliver the vaccine ingredients. Instantaneous teleporting gate? No. Brutality, yes.

Here is the updated website of all recommended childhood vaccines which includes THE PROPER way to immunize:

Administering Vaccines: Dose, Route, Site and Needle Size

Imagine I drive to the airport, park my car, get out, pocket my car keys, walk through the terminal, and board the plane. According to Th1Th2’s logic, I just drove onto the plane.

@ the Thing 209

Ah, I forgot. You don’t get metaphors and sarcasm rebounds on you.

So it will be brutality and more barbarism to use surgery to “instantaneously teleport” vaccine ingredients into the spleen or the lymph nodes. You know, I think you are right. Thanks goodness we don’t do it (yes, that was sarcasm).

Um. Maybe that’s why some slower, roundabout ways were designed, like intramuscular injections. You know, ways to inject a foreign substance with less brutality compared to a direct injection into the bloodstream.

Chris: I’m working on my linking skills…great public health
nurse but not so great at techie stuff..

I knew you would enjoy the site and I had it all along…just playing with a troll here (who doesn’t know that the Latin phrase is “in situ” not “in sutu”.

Th1Th2:

At no time did I deny that the ingredients will not at some point enter the vein (usually in a modified form).

Where is the word “needle” in that sentence? What does “usually in a modified form” mean in Earth (not on Htrae)?

You’ve done this kind of egregious lying before. You go through incredible linguistic gymnastics to avoid saying “I’m sorry, I was wrong.”

Please, if there is any justice in this world: Th1Th2 should never be the parent of any child. The psychological warfare this idiot employs would cause serious harm. That is because Th1Th2 is a liar, idiot and psychotic.

Your only excuse is that English is not your first language. It is not my first language either, so that is nothing to be ashamed of. Unfortunately after age three no one spoke to me in my first language, so my use of it is no longer fluent.

Oooh, look… I employed the evil double negative in the sentence “At no time did I deny that the ingredients will not at some point enter the vein (usually in a modified form).”

Yeah, eventually some part of the vaccine ingredients enter the bloodstream, but not directly from the needle. They need to go through muscle and/or fat tissue. This is where they run into the body’s immune system. What eventually enters the bloodstream is not exactly what was contained in the syringe or needle. Deal with it.

Stop being an idiot. Stop being a liar. Start learning how to live in this reality. And I really fear for any of your offspring.

Thingy: Unlike you, some of us have education in the sciences, some of us are licensed physicians and nurses. I learned proper immunization techniques in college and on the job. I have literally given thousands of immunizations to infants, children and adults and immunized with immunoglobulin thousands of individuals exposed to vaccine-preventable illnesses and to food borne Hepatitis A. I also have Mantoux tested thousands of individuals for tuberculosis screenings and for exposure to an active case of T.B. The vaccines were injected either subcutaneously or intramuscularly…never IV. Mantoux testing is done by injecting Purified Protein Derivative intradermally…never IV. I also vaccinated several dozen “first responders” with Dryvax smallpox vaccine with the proper technique of multiple punctures with a bifurcated implement…never IV.

The only time I ever used an IV needle was to start intravenous solution infusion on a patient in a hospital, or to draw blood for lab testing.

So, what is your particular science background and are you a licensed physician or a licensed nurse? How many immunizations have you ever given?

Please, please guys…don’t get swept into Thing’s “thing”.

Need I remind you of the insane postings from the Thing a few weeks back when Thing couldn’t (or wouldn’t) acknowledge the difference between antigens and antibodies, the difference between TIG and Tetanus Toxoid Vaccine, the difference between HRIG and Rabies vaccine? Attempts to educate Thing were totally futile as he has not a clue about passive immunity, passive acquired immunity, or the ABCs of immunology, no clue about post-exposure prophylaxis versus pre-exposure immunizations…just totally clueless.

Just ignore any further postings by Thing…you cannot argue with his obviously deranged thinking processes.

lilady,

#224, You’re speculating as always. Where did that occur?

— on August 25, the UK Daily Mail said “Up to half of (British) family doctors do not want to be vaccinated against swine flu,” and one-third of them said the vaccine was inadequately tested;

— in Australia, “Leading infectious disease experts have called on the Federal Government to abandon its mass swine-flu vaccination plan because of fears the vaccine is a contamination risk that could spread blood-borne diseases;”

— In Jacobson v. Commonwealth of Massachusetts (1905), the US Supreme Court ruled that the state could require people to be vaccinated for the common good; in April 2009, NECN.com reported that a possible new Massachusetts law (Bill 2028) will require compulsory vaccinations; those refusing face $1,000 a day fines or 30 days in prison; after the state senate unanimously passed it, Catherine Austin Fitts concluded that Boston’s money men must be “very scared about something,” given that the city is “the capital of equity investment;”

— on August 25, Health Minister Ulla Schmidt admitted on German TV that the Swine Flu vaccination campaign was a hoax and the largest ever inoculation experiment in history; and

— on August 22, Dr. Wolfgang Wogarg, chairman of the health committee in the German parliament and European Council, warned about potential Swine Flu vaccine safety. He said Novartis’ vaccine contained cancerous animal cells, and emphasized peoples’ fears over the disease from being inoculated. “It is a great business for the pharmaceutical industry,” he told Neuen Presse. Swine flu is not very different from conventional flu, but the vaccine can have dangerous side effects.

Global Research, August 28, 2009 by Stephen Lendman

Doctors Speak Out on Vaccine Dangers

The Merck Manual (first published in 1899, now available in a Home Edition) warns individuals with B and/or T cell immunodeficiencies to avoid live-virus vaccines (the main ingredient in ones produced by Novartis, GlaxoSmithKline, and perhaps others) due to the risk of severe or fatal infections. Immunodeficiencies include common food allergies, inhalant ones, eczema, dermatitis, neurological deterioration and heart disease. Vaccines may be lethal for people with these conditions because their immune systems can’t produce a healthy reaction to the viral assault on them. Getting it may induce illnesses they’re intended to prevent and many other potentially deadly ones.

On April 2, 2002 in the London Telegraph, autism specialist Dr. Kenneth Aitken said: “When I was in training, one in 2,500 (children were autistic). Now it is one in 250. At the moment, the only logical explanation for this is MMR” immunizations.

On April 27, 1979, at the American Society of Microbiology meeting, a paper by Drs. Anthony Morris, John Chriss, and BG Young titled, “Occurrence of Measles in Previously Vaccinated Individuals” concluded that “By the (US) government’s own admission, there has been a 41% failure rate in persons who were previously vaccinated against the (measles) virus.”

A 1993 British Medical Journal article stated: “In 1993 a high court judge in the UK decided that it was impossible to know the exact contents of vaccines and that science had no idea what the cocktails of chemicals, contaminants and heavy metals contained in vaccines could do to the human body, or why they would work to prevent disease.”

Dr. J. Anthony Morris, former FDA Vaccine Control head said: “There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunization of children does more harm than good.” He concluded that “There is no evidence that any influenza vaccine thus far developed is effective in preventing or mitigating any attack of influenza. The producers of these vaccines know that they are worthless, but they go on selling them anyway.”

Professor LC Vincent, Bioelectronics founder, said “Vaccines DO predispose to cancer and leukemia.”

In December 1985, Dr. Albert Sabin, discoverer of the oral polio vaccine, admitted that “Official data have shown that the large-scale vaccinations undertaken in the US have failed to obtain any significant improvement of the diseases against which they were supposed to provide protection.”

The National Institute of Health’s (NIH) Dr. James A. Shannon said that “The only wholly safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used.”

Professor Ari Zukerman of the World Health Organization (WHO) stated: “Immunization against smallpox is more hazardous than the disease itself.”

Dr. Paul Frame in the Journal of Family Practice believes “There is insufficient evidence to support routine vaccination of healthy persons of any age.”

Dr. John B. Classen stated that his “data proves that the studies used to support immunization are so flawed that it is impossible to say if immunization provides a net benefit to anyone or to society in general.”

Dr. Gerhard Buchwald concluded from the results of 150 trials that “Vaccination is not necessary, not useful, (and) does not protect. There are twice as many casualties from vaccination as from AIDS.”

The Association of American Physicians & Surgeons stated that “Public policy regarding vaccines is fundamentally flawed. It is permeated by conflicts of interest. It is based on poor scientific methodology (and it’s) insulated from independent criticism.”

http://www.casewatch.org/board/med/carley/order_2004.shtml

If they are the same person, based on the results of the hearing in NY, it certainly explains its complete lack of understanding.

It holds up two instances – one involving Mice & another involving a medical procedure from 90 years ago that isn’t even performed anymore (and hasn’t been in quite some time) as some kind of “holy grail” argument winner, while completely ignoring that neither of those two items have anything to do with the actual discussion.

“by Rebecca Carley, M.D.
Court Qualified Expert in VIDS and Legal Abuse Syndrome
Amended June 23, 2008

Posted by: Javier ”

so what about pathogens entering the bloodstream by, you know, cuts or abrasions to the skin?

heh

Particularly apt statement regarding all of our resident trolls:

“The Committee’s majority determined that the Respondent suffers from a delusional disorder that impairs the Respondent’s ability to practice medicine. The Committee found further that the Respondent’s impairment involves a rigid thinking pattern that extends to her professional life and renders her incapable to exercise open-minded judgement required to evaluate and diagnose medical disorders and arrive at appropriate conclusions regarding optimal therapy. The ARB concludes that the Respondent’s impairment makes her unfit for medical practice and could place patients at risk. We conclude further that the Respondent fails to acknowledge her impairment or the need to obtain treatment. We see no alternative means to protect the public other then revoking the Respondent’s License.”

As a physician it is unbelievable to me that otherwise intelligent people can be so brainwashed by the pharmaceutical companies. READ THE ORIGINAL JOURNAL ARTICLES! GO CHECK OUT THE COCHRANE COLLABORATION (the “gold standard” for evidence based medicine).
Everything you will read there readily illustrates the manipulation of statistics, which is so easy to do, to support pharmaceutical companies.

Just a quick question – is there some reason why you did not provide citations of a few of these articles?

@Gayl Hamilton:

READ THE ORIGINAL JOURNAL ARTICLES! GO CHECK OUT THE COCHRANE COLLABORATION (the “gold standard” for evidence based medicine).
Everything you will read there readily illustrates the manipulation of statistics, which is so easy to do, to support pharmaceutical companies.

Please provide one example of a Cochrane Library analysis in which the data were manipulated to obtain a desired result, show where/how the manipulation occurred, and how the results and interpretation would be different without that manipulation.

It’s about vaccine SAFETY, our children’s SAFETY, our own SAFETY. And THAT is what has not been accounted for.

Which vaccine is more dangerous than the disease it is meant to prevent? Please include references. A PubMed ID will suffice.

There are no adequately trialled safety studies. There is not one study looking at multiple vaccinations at the same time. Not one.

False. All vaccine safety studies include patients receiving the standard vaccinations– that is, multiple ones.

NVIC and Mercola’s websites, among others, provide the tools for your research. They provide the links to original documents and publications that the CDC and FDA are not willing provide or publicize.

Because NVIC and Mercola cannot be trusted. Try searching for either of those names in the searchbox at the top left of this webpage.

I “lose” money by not vaccinating my patients.

How does this minor loss compare to the money you earn by treating the resulting vaccine-preventable diseases?

If you agree with the censorship of books like “To Kill a Mockingbird”, to the censorship of history topics that make the US look not so nice, with dictatorships that do not allow the “dissidents” to express their opinions, then I guess I have wasted my keystrokes on here.
If you agree with freedom of science, ideology, and questioning old standards, then you will not fear the ad being run in Times Square. You will embrace it, explore it, and perhaps learn something you didn’t know yesterday.

Well, that was stirring. I suppose that you think you’re some sort of patriot for leaving your patients vulnerable to diseases that could have been prevented. I think you’re despicable. Try spending some time with someone in an iron lung due to polio, or parents who watched their baby cough to death with pertussis, or someone who’s sterile because of mumps orchitis, or deaf because of the measles, or whose child has rubella-induced autism (these people exist, but can you tell us why they are so hard to find?). Your refusal to vaccinate is a clear violation of the standard of care, and I hope you’re reported to your state licensing board.

I “lose” money by not vaccinating my patients.

Let’s see, you lose money, but can make up for it in spades by treating, for example, pertussis.

Gayl Hamilton, MD

As a physician it is unbelievable to me that otherwise intelligent people can be so brainwashed by the pharmaceutical companies. READ THE ORIGINAL JOURNAL ARTICLES! GO CHECK OUT THE COCHRANE COLLABORATION (the “gold standard” for evidence based medicine).

Oh, goody! Finally someone who is willing to answer my question with real journal articles!

Please “Dr.” Hamilton, could you please provide the cites that show the MMR vaccine is riskier than measles, mumps, and rubella? Please to the same for DTaP, Hib, IPV and the varicella vaccine. I live only a couple of miles from a medical school library where I can look up the full papers.

Also, can you answer the question I posed above with the census data of measles incidence? That also seems to one of those questions that those who use ALL CAPS have trouble with.

Oh, and speaking of the Cochrane Library, have you seen this editorial, which says:

This is less dramatic than the Laetrile example, but still, in our opinion, not satisfying. As we will (hopefully) never have proper control groups for the MMR vaccine, the review’s conclusions lead to a paradox: how can the effect of the MMR vaccine be proven through population or clinical outcomes (i.e. incidence of disease) when there is no non-exposed control group?

It’s about vaccine SAFETY, our children’s SAFETY, our own SAFETY.

Yes. Precisely. AND THAT’S WHY WE VACCINATE. Because even if we take the word of the anti-vax hysterics literally, a simple review of public health records show that VACCINE COMPLICATIONS ARE VASTLY FEWER AND MORE BENIGN THAN THOSE OF THE ILLNESSES THEY PREVENT.

I also know, again from public health records, that the two most dangerous phases of vaccinating children occur during the drive to the vaccination and the drive home. Again, even accepting the word of an underwear model with a comedian ex- as unvarnished scientific truth, kids are far more likely to be in a collision than they are to suffer adverse effects from an innoculation.

If you want to protect your kid from the risks of vaccination, don’t drive. Ever. Trade in the minivan and take the bus. You’ll save a lot of money and the environment, too.

(And you certainly are not losing money as a medical practitioner by not vaccinating; in the long run, you’re guaranteeing yourself a lot of repeat business from preventable diseases. That this drives up health care costs is a secondary concern, but given the current US obsession over spiraling health insurance premiums and the liquidity of Medicare it is a topical one.)

(Hey, there’s an idea; treat anti-vax statements from physicians as a warning sign of insurance fraud?)

— Steve

Chris

The package inserts are “cover your ass” bits written by lawyers.

Citation???

They shouldn’t put ANY of the side effects on the package insert. It should read as follows:

SIDE EFFECTS: So What? What are you gonna do about? Nothin’. Just what I thought. Just take the damn vaccine!

@ Javier: Lawrence only provided you with the Final Order that revoked Rebecca Lee Carley’s license to practice medicine in New York State. See the entire sordid mess including license suspension and license revocation at:

OPMC Rebecca Lee Carley

Sure, she tells her “audience” that there was a conspiracy by the courts and by New York State agencies to remove her license to practice because she was anti-vax and she can cure autism…nothing like that ever happened. Since the time she was licensed, she displayed early signs of mental illness and she went “full bore” when her child’s custody was given to the father. She is not “court qualified” in any way.

I spoke to her (got stuck speaking to her) when she would call the health department where I worked. She, unfortunately is mentally ill and needs some serious therapy and a course of major anti-psychotic medications. The psychiatrists who examined her state she also has a personality disorder; there is no therapy or medication to treat that.

@ Wintemute: Right you are, about prevalence and incidence rates of measles plummeting following licensing of measles vaccine in 1963. In fact following licensing, measles incidence went down by 98 %. See web: CDC Pink Book Measles.

Thingy: We are all waiting for you to answer the questions I posed to you at # 222, above:

So what is your particular science background and are you a licensed physician or a licensed nurse?

How many immunizations have you ever given?

Thingy has argued that vaccines are bad because they’re injected into the bloodstream. Now:

What’s so undesirable about prompt recovery anyway? You tell me.

about injecting some vaccine directly into the bloodstream. Thingy can’t even be bothered to maintain consistency on a single comment thread. So we’ll conclude with another Thingy quote:

It’s because your mind is full of contradiction.

Chris,

Wow! It even has pictures! So, Th1Th2, look at the pretty pictures. Tell us which one shows the end of the needle going into a vein.

I couldn’t tell but you will need Band-Aid or a cotton ball for a needlestick injury like that right?

BTW, did you also show lilady where the PPD is properly injected? Is it beneath or within the layers of the skin? I’m surprised the subcutaneous and the muscles tissues lie beneath the skin! Unbelievable. Lastly, do you have any needle gauge smaller than tuberculin syringe so I can inject the PPD? I don’t want to hit those microscopic capillaries with the needle end you know. Haha. Pretty pictures indeed.

So, Th1Th2, what is your educational background? Is it the custom on Htrae to brag about how little you attended school?

Because it is obvious you don’t even know how to look at a drawing and notice that there were no veins in them. Do you even know the difference between veins, arteries, capillaries and muscle?

That didn’t even refute the fact that vaccines are indeed injected [slowly and indirectly] into the bloodstreams.

You just contradicted yourself, Th1Th2. That’s like saying a car teleports you [slowly and indirectly] to a destination.

Chris,

Because it is obvious you don’t even know how to look at a drawing and notice that there were no veins in them. Do you even know the difference between veins, arteries, capillaries and muscle?

It’s a drawing. Why don’t you provide us, your fans, with a complete illustration of the human skin where the blood vessels are shown.

You know Wiki is waiting for you. I’ll let you do the honors.

@ Chris: Don’t even waste your time on Thing; he is a typical troll…and sadly lacking in any reasoning skills, no less a science based background to understand 3rd grade science. Thing doesn’t have a higher education degree in any field and is totally unable to understand simple diagrams and pictures; he lives in his “own world” populated by other ranting, raving trolls. Sad.

W. Kevin Vicklund

You just contradicted yourself, Th1Th2. That’s like saying a car teleports you [slowly and indirectly] to a destination.

Check #208. What part of the word No do you not understand?

No, he can’t. Because even he has no clue what he’s saying.

Gray,

Are you serious? Do you know what the death rate from measles was before modern medicine?

I would assume they were not smart. And I mean smart to maintain a healthy living.

If modern medicine only makes things worse, why hasn’t anybody noticed?

Most people are not smart.

Another thing. You were told, repeatedly, that IV use of typhoid was not a vaccine. Why do you keep insisting it is?

That’s laughable. I assume you’re not that smart enough to even define the word vaccine.

It’s because primary measles caused by natural infection is generally benign and uncomplicated. That is if you ask a smart person who knows how to take care of a sick child at home (not hospital).

I guess it’s a shame that there are so few smart people who know how to take care of a sick child at home, then. Because a huge number of “natural” measles infections end in death, blindness, brain damage or other serious conditions. In fact, the odds of suffering these nasty side effects is far higher amongst children who are not hospitalised.

I don’t suppose you can provide any citations for your laughable claims, can you?

I don’t suppose you can provide any citations for your laughable claims, can you?

It will redefine ‘citation’ as ‘small toy found within my breakfast cereal’ and provide you with plenty.

Chris,

Sorry, I only deal with science and math that pertains to Earth, not Htrae. On Earth between 80% to 90% of American children become immune to the wild measles virus due to the MMR vaccine.

In the event they get re-exposed to the wild-type. That means, primary measles infection occurs when the naive child is initially and deliberately exposed to the measles virus vaccine or when the child contracts natural measles. The measles vaccine just created an alternative way to replace primary measles infection caused by wild-type measles virus.

There was no reduction Chris instead there was propagation of the measles virus worldwide. For you being a casual fan of vaccination, I wouldn’t expect you to even understand basic immunology.

That is why we no longer need to bury about one child per family, or send away children to institutions to rot after they became permanently disabled. Something that was common in the 19th century.

They were not that smart.

The fact that children have an actual chance of growing up is because of advances in medical treatment (antibiotics, ventilators), water and sewage treatment and vaccines. Not just one of those things, but all of those things.

Despite all of those things, hospitals continue to multiply and disease categories continue to flourish. Is it because people are healthier now and not getting sick?

Th1Th2:

Despite all of those things, hospitals continue to multiply and disease categories continue to flourish. Is it because people are healthier now and not getting sick?

So why is our local tuberculous sanitarium now the campus of a private school? Why has lifespan doubled since the 19th century? Do you think that the numbers of hospital beds might be related to the doubling of the American population in the last fifty years?

What is the proportion of hospital beds to population?

Don’t bother answering. Your answers are worthless. They are pulled out the convoluted folds of your anatomy that is attached to the chair seat, and filtered through some fantasy filled smokescreen.

I’m done playing with this clown. I am utterly amazed that she has figured out how to turn on a computer and navigate to this page, because she is even more clueless than Little Augie. He is just a little sexist anti-science right wing troll who is merely stupid, but Thingy lives in her own fantasy world. It is even less consistent and more bizarre than Htrae.

Th1Th2 – This statement appears ambiguous – could you clarify?

…the wild-type poliovirus … will not cause paralysis in more than 99% cases of poliomyelitis.

Does that mean that only 99% of polio cases result in paralysis or that less than 1% of polio cases result in paralysis. Do you have a statistic and source? Is that for permanent paralysis or does it also cover temporary paralysis? What of excruciating pain – do you have a statistic on how often that is associated with polio?

If I had any liquor, I would get drunk and see if that comment from Th1Th2 makes more sense that way.

JohnV, in her fantasy world 308 million is not more than twice 151 million.

O’Brien,

Does that mean that only 99% of polio cases result in paralysis or that less than 1% of polio cases result in paralysis.

The latter. Should this be surprising?

Do you have a statistic and source?

You can use whatever source of information available to you at this moment. Don’t get too complicated, it won’t change the fact.

Is that for permanent paralysis or does it also cover temporary paralysis?

It does not matter.

What of excruciating pain – do you have a statistic on how often that is associated with polio?

The 99% or the 1%? Please clarify.

Thanks – as I said, your original statement could be read two ways.

According to Wikipedia, about 90% of Polio infections show no symptoms. According to the “prognosis” section of the same article, possible outcomes include full recovery, temporary paralysis, permanent paralysis, and death.

About 3% of infections cause non-paralytic aseptic meningitis, with symptoms of headache, neck, back, abdominal and extremity pain, fever, vomiting, lethargy and irritability.

Perhaps 1 in 200 are paralyzed.

“An IM injection is, by definition, not IV.”

Obvious typo is obvious.

Please ignore the thing – she should be concentrating on her therapy in an attempt to regain at least some semblance of custody/contact with her child.

@ JohnV and LW: I’ve taken my prescribed ETOH per os preprandial “medication” and Thingy’s comments still do not make sense.

The base “argument” is that babies are “born sterile” and remain so until they are “made filthy by inoculation.” One may as well contest with a triffid.

p.s.
Have emailed CBS.

Sauceress,

Because of differences in vascularity, the rates of absorption differ, with arm > thigh > buttocks.
The volume of injection, osmolality of the solution, lipid solubility and degree of ionization influence absorption.”

This is the problem with dyslexics, sure they can type but they don’t read and understand pretty well. Can you identify the first five words that you have quoted?

If a capillary is broken by the tip of a needle, blood stops flowing through it…right? Right? A broken cappillary would be transporting blood from where to where? Or do you actually think that the bevels of the hyperdemics used to inject IM vaccines are small enough to actually enter into a capillary?

Good grief. What the hell are you talking about? Now, let me return the favor.

Is it really trying to say vascularized tissue = capillaries?

Haha.

there are naive children out there

Who even post on this blog.

Gray,

I’m pretty sure that fact that millions were inoculated against polio, so where are all the cases I’m supposed to be seeing? Where?

Millions were inoculated with polio. You have two options nonetheless.

1. Deny that this never happened.
2. Remain a germ-denialist.

My guess. Your guilty of both.

Millions were inoculated with polio. You have two options nonetheless.

Th1Th2, did you know that one percent of a million is ten thousand? So if they were inoculated with polio, why aren’t there thousands of cases of paralysis resulting from polio vaccinations?

Gray,

Th1Th2, did you know that one percent of a million is ten thousand? So if they were inoculated with polio, why aren’t there thousands of cases of paralysis resulting from polio vaccinations?

It’s because the mutations done in polio vaccine (OPV) made the virus strain less neurovirulent compared to wild-type.

Gray,

Finally, you’re starting to learn! The live-virus version did cause infections, but not as severe as the real disease. We already know this, you did nothing groundbreaking by telling us that.

Or that the OPV did nothing to prevent poliomyelitis instead it became the alternative and dominant source of infectious poliovirus to date.

BTW, what’s so severe about asymptomatic poliomyelitis caused by the wild-type virus in more than 95% of polio cases?

You’re mercurial Gray. Your germ-denialism and germ-loving nature occur at the same time. Didn’t you notice that? Tell me next time which side are you in. OK?

Gray,

Do you have any evidence that poliomyelitis infections are running rampant? Base assertion is not enough.

What’s going on here? Are you having transient amnesia?
You just told me the truth:

The live-virus version did cause infections,[…]

Nothing, but what about the other 5% of the cases? If I stabbed you, could I get off by saying I only murdered 1 in 300,000,000 of the US’ population?

That’s only because you’re trying to use your own definitions “germ theory” and “germ denialism”. The fact that they contradict so easily suggests that maybe the problem is with your definitions.

Your biphasic nature is so obvious. As a germ-lover you will praise the vaccine-type virus because it causes a not- so-severe infection but when the vaccine leads to paralysis you instantaneously become a germ-denialist.

Not good.

First of all, there are viewpoints outside of the extremes.

You know who else said that? HITLER.

Gray,

The vaccine only causes paralysis in extremely rare cases, and while it did cause mild infections, they did not spread as badly as true polio.

There you go. There’s the germ-denialism again. So you would never call it true polio unless the infected person becomes paralytic, would you?

You yourself admitted that the vaccine strain is weaker in comment 307! Try to understand the basics. First of all, there are viewpoints outside of the extremes.

That’s because there are non-paralytic types of poliomyelitis caused by either wild-type or vaccine-type virus. If you want to refute this then you have to be a germ-denialist, that is, you have to deny asymptomatic, abortive and non-paralytic poliomyelitis.

There you go. There’s the germ-denialism again. So you would never call it true polio unless the infected person becomes paralytic, would you?

Did you even bother to read the comment? All I have to do is make a small change: The vaccine only causes paralysis in extremely rare cases, and while it did cause mild infections, they did not spread as badly as wild-type polio.

That’s because there are non-paralytic types of poliomyelitis caused by either wild-type or vaccine-type virus. If you want to refute this then you have to be a germ-denialist, that is, you have to deny asymptomatic, abortive and non-paralytic poliomyelitis.

I know those exist. What I don’t know is why you think they’re still occurring. Do you have any evidence that this is happening? At all? Don’t just assert your version of germ theory, a hypothesis is only as good as the evidence supporting it.

313: You know who else said that?

You know who else expressed mystical, single-cause theories of disease and impurity in German?

Gray Falcon:

Don’t just assert your version of germ theory, a hypothesis is only as good as the evidence supporting it.

Remember, you are dealing with a person who lives in a fantasy world. There is only her version of the world, the rest is not part of her “reality.” It is a a construct that lives only in her fun house mind as a very warped version of solipsism.

An answer to some of my critics from yesterday regarding the danger of a “vaccine preventable disease” vs the danger of the vaccine.

INCIDENCE OF COMPLICATIONS FROM NATURAL PERTUSSIS INFECTION
(VS) COMPLICATIONS FROM DtAP VACCINATION
(all stats are for the US population and based on yearly incidence)

(from Emedicine article)
Mortality rate in the US currently in hospitalized patients is about 1 in 500 (0.2%)
There were approximately 25,000 cases of pertussis in 2005, and 16 deaths (couldn’t find age breakdown), so overall death rate from the disease is about 0.06%, or 1 death per 1500 cases.
There were approximately 300 million people in the US in 2005. That is 1 death from pertussis per 18 million people (incidence 0.000005%) and 1 case of pertussis per 12,000 people (incidence 0.008%)
Infants and children 1 to 4 years old comprised 25% of the cases, or 6,250.
Infants less than 12 months old comprised 16% of the cases, or 4,000.

History of pertussis in the United States
Peak incidence of pertussis infection occurred in 1934, with about 270,000 cases.
There were 10,000 deaths so overall death rate from disease was 4%, or 1 death per 27 cases.
The population was about 126,000,000, making the incidence about 0.2%, or 1 in 466 people. There was a total of 1 death from disease for every 12,600 people, or (0.007%).

The peak death rate from pertussis occurred in 1923 with 9,000 deaths and 166,000 cases (5.5% death rate, or 1 death for every 18 cases). US population was about 111,000,000 people, with 1 pertussis death per 12000 people (0.008%) and 1 case of pertussis for every 670 people (0.1%)

Serious sequelae of natural infection
Using the 2005 incidence data
10 to 25% of children less than 4 yrs old will develop a secondary bacterial pneumonia, worst case scenario would be about 1500 cases
1 to 2% of infants will have seizures, or 40 to 80 cases
Approximately 0.1% will have encephalopathy (criteria for this diagnosis were not specified), or about 6 cases

Data regarding Daptacel (DTaP) taken from the manufacturer’s insert:
Reactions tend to increase with repeated doses.
One of the safety studies was done on 1454 children (US) who received their 4th dose of vaccine (so, probably around 15 to 18 months old).
They found that 27 (1.9%) were diagnosed with bronchiolitis within 30 days
4 (0.3%) had a seizure within 60 days
2 (0.12%) developed meningitis
3 (0.2%) developed pneumonia
1 (0.07%) developed sepsis
1 (0.07%) developed pertussis
1 (0.07%) became unresponsive

Other numbers from looking at reactions up to 3 days following administration of doses 1 through 5:
Fever greater than 101 F occurs in up to 4.8% (almost 1 in 20)
Lethargy up to 50% (1 out of 2 kids), moderate to severe up to 23% (just about 1 out of 4)
Inconsolable crying, up to 58% (1 in 2)
Greater than 3 hours, up to 3.4% (1 in 30)
Fussiness and irritability, “moderate”, up to 28% ( 1 in 4)
“Severe”, up to 5% (1 in 20)
Vomiting occurs in up to 9% (1 in 8)

Let’s imagine this scenario:

It’s the year 2010 and there are approximately 21 million kids under the age of 5 in the US.
Using the rate of infection of pertussis at it’s peak (0.2%) and death rate from illness from 2005, (0.06%), and assuming the age breakdown is similar to that in 2005, (26% in children under the age of 5) serious health sequelae after natural infection, the number of complications among this group would look like follows:

The total population of the US will be around 310 million, so there would be around 620,000 cases of pertussis (1 in 500 people), and a total of 372 deaths (1 in 800,000 cases)

161,000 children under the age of 4 will be affected (again couldn’t find break down of death stats)
Of these affected children:

10 to 25% children less than 4 yrs old will develop a secondary bacterial pneumonia, (16,000 to 40, 000 cases)
1 to 2% infants will have seizures (1600 to 3200) cases
Approximately 0.1% will have encephalopathy (criteria for this diagnosis were not specified, so lets use the definition of encephalitis (brain inflammation) – or about 161 cases (1 in 1000).

Signs and Symptoms of Encephalitis:
Symptoms in milder cases of encephalitis usually include:
fever
headache
poor appetite
loss of energy
a general sick feeling
In more severe cases of encephalitis, a person is more likely to experience high fever and any of a number of symptoms that relate to the central nervous system, including:
severe headache
nausea and vomiting
stiff neck
confusion
disorientation
personality changes
convulsions (seizures)
problems with speech or hearing
hallucinations
memory loss
drowsiness
coma

It’s more difficult to tell in infants, but vomiting, a full or bulging soft spot (fontanel), crying that doesn’t stop or that seems worse when an infant is picked up or handled in some way, and body stiffness are clues.
(Now go back and look at the reactions listed for Daptacel….)

Now, fortunately (?), the above scenario is highly unlikely due to high rates of immunization. Lets see what would happen if we estimate that about half of the total child population will be less than 2 years old, and receive 4 DTaPs over the year – that would be about 10 million kids, and 30 million doses given.
Back to the serious adverse events numbers:
1.9% incidence of bronchiolitis, or 570,000 cases of bronchiolitis
0.3% incidence of seizures, or 90, 000 seizures
0.2% incidence of pneumonia, or 60,000 cases
0.12% incidence of meningitis, or 36,000 cases
0.07% incidence of sepsis, unresponsiveness, and pertussis or 21,000 cases of each

This adds up to approximately 777,000 cases of serious adverse reactions from the vaccine just in the population of children 2 and under (vs) 161,000 POSSIBLE cases of pertussis in children under 4.

And the common, “not so serious reactions”, that are curiously similar to those of encephalitis:
Up to 50% lethargy, 15 million cases, moderate to severe up to 23%, or 7 million cases
58% incidence inconsolable crying, more than 15 million
Greater than 3 hours, up to 3.4% or 1 million cases
Up to 28% incidence of “moderate”, fussiness and irritability, or 8 million cases,
Up to 5%“Severe”, or 1.5 million cases
Up to 9% incidence of vomiting, or 2.7 million cases
4.8% incidence of fever greater than 101, or 1.4 million cases
.04% incidence fever greater than 104, or 12,000 cases

(Taken from a Mayo Clinic patient ed handout)
Severe viral encephalitis can cause:
 Seizures
 Respiratory arrest
 Coma
 Death
In those who’ve had severe encephalitis, some problems may last for a year or more, including:
 Fatigue
 Weakness
 Depression
 Personality changes
 Gait problems
 Memory difficulties
Some complications may be permanent, such as memory loss, the inability to speak coherently, lack of muscle coordination, paralysis, or hearing or vision defects.

We questioned Thingy about Intravenous vaccines and thoroughly bitch-slapped its theories about routes of administration of vaccines.

Now Thingy attempts to tell us about VAPP (Vaccine Associated Paralytic Polio). I posed some questions (at # 318 above) about VAPP cases in the United States in the last ten years and Thingy couldn’t produce any statistics.

Oral Polio Vaccine (OPV) has not been used in the United States since 2000, when Inactivated Polio Vaccine (IPV) was recommended and used exclusively, for primary series and completion of polio series immunizations.

The last VAPP case infected/acquired in the United States was reported in 1999. In 2005, an unvaccinated resident of the United States was confirmed to have VAPP. The resident was infected/acquired VAPP while traveling in Costa Rica.

The first 10 responses to Gayl are all requesting citations or examining the claims made in #238. I myself pointed out that Gayl used the pharma-shill gambit. I note that instead of replying to the overwhelming call for citations and proof of claims, Gayl has decided to play persecuted poopypants and accuse others of juvenile tactics.

Welcome to the internet, Gayl, would you like some cheese with your whine or would you like to respond to the 10 different posters (at least) that requested you actually use citations?

CG,

Except the OPV strains are severely attenuated and rarely are able to infect another person.

Nah. The rarity of host-to-host transmission is not characteristic of OPV. In fact, the goal of OPV administration after infecting its recipient is to shed the infectious virus and transmit it to contacts thereby establishing the chain of infection. What’s something rare is that naive children rarely avoid and escape being infected by the vaccine virus where OPV is available. They are always the first recipient of the infectious poliovirus. Not good.

Not to mention many countries, like the US, use the IPV, which isn’t even a live virus. But then Thing thinks proteins alone can cause infections.

Killed microorganisms like the IPV, if left alone at the mucosal surface, cannot cause infection because they will be repelled by the innate barrier. So why is IPV injected? To intentionally promote infection. Unlike its Big Bro OPV, the IPV is more personal and selfish. It won’t share the virus to others. Who cares when everyone else gets inoculated.

Chris

Please provide the evidence for your statements in your first comment. I have been waiting for the answers to my questions from some qualified healthcare provider for a very long time. I am disappointed that you are not going to accommodate my request.

Chis, why do you believe that it is scientifically plausible that a person can be trapped and born into the wrong body? Please provide scientific evidence for your beliefs. You keep avoiding this question. I thought your opinions were all science based medicine opinions and that your logic was of sound mind.

Do you have physiology related beliefs that are based in science? Are they rooted in political correctness and personal philosophy instead?

I think you know the answer. You know I know the answer. That is why you won’t answer it. Don’t give me the killfile excuse because I know you read my posts. I have evidence of your “non-reading” replies.

Some questions:
Th1Th2, you admitted that the OPV only rarely causes paralysis, but do you r realize how severely that undercuts your own argument? Is the live polio vaccine less dangerous than wild-type polio or not?
Gayl Hamilton, you were asked repeatedly for citations. Why are you only responding to a few scattered insults? Are you really that petty?
Augustine, do you really think talk like that has a place in adult conversation?

@Dr. Hamilton

“I find it quite interesting that some responders to my post (#238) resort to personal attacks and insults as a method of reply….seriously??? That is not part of the art of debate.
Grow up!”

So the art of debate is telling people to not resort to personal attacks and insults but to tell people to grow up?

Understood.

dt,

[…]and desperately yearning to go faster and further.

And that’s exactly what happened to OPV. It reverted to neurovirulence and spawned to a new monster called VDPV.

Maybe Gayl Hamilton MD thinks that requests for citations are personal attacks. After all, we’re not just taking her assertions at her word. We’re demanding evidence! We don’t trust her! We think she could be wrong! Or lying!

How awful of us.

CG,

Thingy is trying to change the definition of infection, again. Infection requires replication, something a dead organism cannot do. Stimulating an immune response without infection is the entire point of a killed vaccine.

No, I’m telling you the sequence. A successful infection must be established before any replication could take place. Like the OPV, the poliovirus must first infect and then replicate in the gut. However, the IPV and other killed microorganisms are incapable of infecting the mucosa let alone the underlying tissues like the muscles, they have to be injected to establish an infection site which then triggers an immune response. And since they are non-replicating, the IPV is restricted to the host therefore does not promote further transmission.

Gray,

Th1Th2, you admitted that the OPV only rarely causes paralysis, but do you r realize how severely that undercuts your own argument? Is the live polio vaccine less dangerous than wild-type polio or not?

You don’t get it, do you? I am antivaccine because I do not promote vaccines the same way I am also anti-pox because I don’t promote nonsense exposure to natural infection. I advocate infection control by cutting the chain of transmission and now you want me to promote the lesser of the two evils? So when do you plan of getting sexually harassed ? Don’t worry it’s less dangerous than rape? Ask your doctor about it.

They infect nothing. The destroyed virus particles can’t even enter cells. The are taken up and degraded by antigen presenting cells which then activate the adaptive immune system. There is no infection by any definition of the word.

Ah, but you see, in Thingish any sort of reaction to anything related to a virus qualifies as an “infection” with the virus.

Seriously. You’d have better luck talking with your dining room table; it’s a lot smarter.

Anton,

To intentionally promote antibody production and natural immune response.

That will eventually happen following a successful infection of the host. So why is the IPV not given per orem?

Th1Th2,

That will eventually happen following a successful infection of the host.

That will also happen without an infection. For example, most allergens don’t infect people, but they create an immune reaction.

So why is the IPV not given per orem?

So that it won’t be destroyed by the digestive process.

CG,

They infect nothing. The destroyed virus particles can’t even enter cells. The are taken up and degraded by antigen presenting cells which then activate the adaptive immune system. There is no infection by any definition of the word.

None of those things will occur, not even infection, if they are restricted and eliminated early on at the mucosal level. That is, they are eliminated by non-adaptive mechanism of the immune system.

W. Kevin Vicklund,

A successful invasion must be established before replication can take place. Once replication takes place, an infection has occurred. Invasion, replication, then and only then do you have an infection.

Wrong. Any pathogen, replicating or not, which is introduced in the body is infection. Of course, any germ-denialists will deny this.

Varicella-zoster and herpes simplex viruses are both highly neurotropic, establishing nonreplicating infections in sensory ganglia.

Which is why the VZV vaccine will be more successful in causing infection by invading the deep subcutaneous tissues rather than being cleared at the mucosal surface. And you know how this vaccine is administered right?

So when do you plan of getting sexually harassed ? Don’t worry it’s less dangerous than rape?

Ah, again with your inaccurate metaphors.
Vaccination is actually more like self-defense teaching. Someone pretends to assault you and you learn some defensive moves. Later on, if you are attacked for real, maybe you will have a better chance of escaping unharmed. Or less harmed.
(and yes, the best defense is to run away, but it’s not always feasible)
Also, please notice that, like vaccinations, attending a self-defense training is not without risks of injuries (been there, done that…). But it’s less risky than the real thing.

Although I am from the UK, I feel strongly about this and have therefore signed, tweeted and emailed. I have also pasted the email into my blog (http://josephinejones.wordpress.com/) and invite anyone to plagiarise it.

I only started blogging in the last month so have virtually no readers. Therefore couldn’t help engaging with an antivax guy who commented (who also says he has a biology degree), ended up spending more time on this than the original complaint. Brilliant takedown by Mike – “is this the same Tony that also graduated in astrophysics, yet believes the Earth is flat?”

So when do you plan of getting sexually harassed ? Don’t worry it’s less dangerous than rape?

Sexual harassment prevents rape? Who knew?

I feel a bit sorry for Th1Th2. Its repeated imagery of the forcible defilement of the bodies of naive children and its repeated invocation of sexual harassment and rape in this inappropriate context suggests something quite sad about its childhood.

LW, which is exactly why I fear for any child in her care.

Narad pointed to a user on sMothering that was much like Th1Th2, it seemed to indicate she had an infant. Here is a useful Google. (you can also use INF-ss)

Oh, man, my own petard. I’ll have to go reread them.

CG,

Which would accomplish absolutely nothing.

That would be great. It means no infection.

The wild type virus, with all its functioning proteins that it uses to get through the innate immune system, would still be able to infect (real infection, not Thingy’s “infection”) that person.

And even dead microorganisms can get through the innate immune system and infect the deep tissues. I wonder why. Haha.

Heliantus,

Vaccination is actually more like self-defense teaching.

Really? How could children defend themselves against live vaccines from infecting their body when you couldn’t even defend yourself against dead microorganisms? Some self-defense.

How could children defend themselves against live vaccines from infecting their body

The same way they defend themselves against wild pathogens, only better: attenuated viruses from live vaccines are notorious for having reduced pathogenic capabilities. That’s what they have been designed for.
Dead microorganisms are even easier, they don’t fight back.

when you couldn’t even defend yourself against dead microorganisms?

I have no trouble defending myself against dead micro-organisms, it’s the live ones which are worrying me. How could a dead bug do anything to anyone? It’s dead.
Are you talking about zombie microorganisms?

Gray/Heliantus,

Th1Th2, if the human body couldn’t defend itself against dead microorganisms, we’d all be dead now.

I have no trouble defending myself against dead micro-organisms,[…]. How could a dead bug do anything to anyone? It’s dead.
Are you talking about zombie microorganisms?

I was pertaining to dead microorganisms in the vaccine. It should be on the top of your lists. Are you guys going to deny again?

Heliantus,

The same way they defend themselves against wild pathogens, only better: attenuated viruses from live vaccines are notorious for having reduced pathogenic capabilities.

How? By inviting them?

WKV,

No, they can’t. They’re dead.

You just said they can.

Yeah, all it takes is a breach in the barrier. A cut, a scrape, an injection.

They can’t replicate. Replication is required in order for something to be an infection.

There are infections that do not require replication.

Varicella-zoster and herpes simplex viruses are both highly neurotropic, establishing nonreplicating infections in sensory ganglia.

You’re making a claim equivalent to “necrophiliacs impregnate dead women.”

Not even close.

Gray,

You’re the one who stated that the live-virus version is still out there infecting people. My claim was that it did infect people, but it was not virulent enough to spread as badly as wild-type polio. I just want evidence for your claim.

Same as yours.

For the umpteenth time,

Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner.

That’s one hell of anti-Th1Th2 Ab right there.

No, they can’t. They’re dead.

You just said they can.

Yeah, all it takes is a breach in the barrier. A cut, a scrape, an injection.

They can’t replicate. Replication is required in order for something to be an infection.

No. Any pathogen, replicating or not, when introduced in the body is infection. Of course, any germ-denialist will deny this. Also, there are infections that do not require replication.

Varicella-zoster and herpes simplex viruses are both highly neurotropic, establishing nonreplicating infections in sensory ganglia.

You’re making a claim equivalent to “necrophiliacs impregnate dead women.”

Not even close.

I have defined Thingy as furniture. It may now be sold or otherwise disposed of. Since Thingy is now furniture, anyone continuing to argue with it is now defined as insane. With luck, it may go away.

Oh, and in case any passerby wonders about censorship on this blog:

When your post has more than two links, or contains some specific keywords (like you are a Nigerian prince with a million dollars to give away), your comment will be automatically held in moderation limbo, pending the blog’s author review and approval.
If you post many comments in a short time, or very late at night, it will trigger the automatic ‘comment received and held for approval’, too.
Eventually the author will wake up (even a shiny box of light needs to sleep), come around his blog and approve your posts.

No need for paranoia.

Varicella-zoster and herpes simplex viruses are both highly neurotropic, establishing nonreplicating infections in sensory ganglia.

How long did it take you to come up with this very idiotic excuse?

A latent herpesvirus is not dead. It is still expressing genes and is quite capable of going lytic and replicating.

On the other hand, a dead virus isn’t going to spring to life and start replicating.

CG,

On the other hand, a dead virus isn’t going to spring to life and start replicating.

Check #345. It’s all about the sequence. Infection precedes replication. So a dead virus can only infect but not replicate.

Once again, Th1Th2 assumes that asserting a statement is all that is required to prove it. He still hasn’t answered why, if the human body is so susceptible to infection, we aren’t all dead from minor cuts and scrapes.

JayK:

It appears that Gayl Hamilton’s “citation” post was held up in moderation, because it is basically a very long copy paste.

… Using “data” from a “cover your ass” lawyer written package insert, which is not a scientific cite. It also does not answer the question of how much more dangerous the DTaP vaccine is versus pertussis because it does not show the relative risk.

Dr. Hamilton, in the future when we ask for cites please restrict those to the full papers (not letters or opinion pieces) indexed in PubMed.

(And why, for the love of mud, is anyone still trying to reason with that funhouse ride of bizarre insanity who seems to think “dead” viruses can replicate?)

He still hasn’t answered why, if the human body is so susceptible to infection, we aren’t all dead from minor cuts and scrapes.

…and injections?

@Gray Falcon

It’s an appropriate response when you are so scared you soil yourself at the thought of a needle.

More seriously, it’s a common human failing to discount the risks of what we find familiar, and to emphasize the risks of the unusual. That’s what makes us able to get behind the wheel and drive every day, but cringe in fear that a terrorist might hijack our airplane.

I can’t believe Th1Th2 is at it again. It’s like watching a train wreck – you want to look away, but you can’t:

“No. Any pathogen, replicating or not, when introduced in the body is infection.”

Now, there is a slight possibility that Th1Th2 is confused about the difference between “not replicating” and “dead”. After all, one of the “hot” topics in medical microbiology is bacterial “persistence”, where they are alive but don’t replicate (and have minimal metabolic demands) for a prolonged period of time. If this is what Th1Th2 is talking about, a more accurate way of putting it would be:

Any pathogen capable of replicating, when introduced into the body, is capable of causing an infection.

After all, an “infection” requires at least a minimal amount of replication, otherwise it’s not an infection. Pathogens (or non-pathogens) introduced into the body would be an inocculation; an infection is what occurs when the inocculum replicates.

But Th1Th2, never content to merely suggest incompetence, continues:

“Also, there are infections that do not require replication.”

For example….?

The only example I can come up with is rather contrived: an infusion of massive numbers of bacteria, fungi, archaea or other foreign organism (even viruses) could cause a massive immune response, possibly a fatal immune response, even if they were somehow altered to be viable (i.e. not dead) but unable to replicate. Heck, even an infusion of massive amounts of dead bacteria (etc.) could trigger a fatal immune response.

Apart from that example, I can’t think of an infection (and the example isn’t really an infection, per se) that doesn’t involve replication.

I suppose it’s also possible that Th1Th2 is playing a sort of “word game” and means that the bacteria, fungi, viruses, etc. aren’t replicating at the time of the injection. After all, even with live virus vaccines, the virus isn’t replicating in the syringe – it needs live human cells to do that.

However, it’s more than a bit of a stretch to say that the surface proteins in the hepatitis B vaccine or the toxoids in the tetanus or diphtheria vaccines can “infect” because they aren’t even the whole organism.

Unfortunately, the most likely explanation is that Th1Th2 hasn’t a clue about what “infection” or “replication” actually mean. To paraphrase Th1Th2 (and this is the second time I’ve used this in two days):

“When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”

Prometheus

A non-replicating infection is a type of latent infection. It is an infection in which replication has halted, but retains the ability to resume replication at a later date. A dead pathogen does not retain the ability to resume replication, so it can’t establish a non-replicating infection.

NB: herpesvirus (Th1Th2’s example) initially replicates in the ganglion, but something causes the viral DNA to become circular (kind of like a plasmid). The virus doesn’t replicate in this form, but snip it at the right spot, and replication starts right back up. Or as ERV would say:

OMG VIRUS SEXY TIMEZ!!! AI MAKEZ BABBY VIRUS NAUW!!!

Prometheus,

If this is what Th1Th2 is talking about, a more accurate way of putting it would be: Any pathogen capable of replicating, when introduced into the body, is capable of causing infection.

Like I said it’s all about the sequence. Infection comes before replication. Infection occurs when a naive child opens his mouth or exposes his arm to acquire the pathogenic agent. Whether the pathogen replicates or not (live or killed), does not matter for there are vaccines that promote host-to-host transmission of infectious pathogens and there are that cause noncommunicable infection. Hence, infection-induced immunity is the primary goal behind vaccination, not infection control let alone prevention. So a little nitpicking would make your statement true.

Any pathogen capable of replicating, when introduced into the body, is capable of causing infection

Tell me, Th1Th2, do you have any support for your claims beyond “Take my word for it?”

W. Kevin Vicklund,

The inability of killed pathogen to replicate is why they only cause noncommunicable infection to the host but not transmission to others.

herr doktor bimler,

If this usage catches on, newspaper reports will talk of bullet infections instead of gunshot wounds, and knife infections instead of a fatal stabbing.

Even news editors know what pathogens are. So no, they will not use terms like bullet and knife infections. I thought vaccine apologists are a lot smarter than 5th graders.

Poor Thingy. She thinks cars are instantaneous teleportation devices, necrophiliacs can impregnate dead women, and dead pathogens are infectious.

Vicklund,

Poor Thingy. She thinks cars are instantaneous teleportation devices, necrophiliacs can impregnate dead women, and dead pathogens are infectious.

Like I said before, it’s better to let go of this quietly than be exposed as germ-denialists. There are other ways though for them to evade scientific reasoning and utter humiliation, by means of ad hominem, faulty analogies and speculations. Check out #209, #386 and #415. If you cannot refute them with science, then that’s fine with me.

George W. Julian, discussing Lincoln’s views on the Emancipation Proclamation:

In discussing the question, he used to liken the case to that of the boy who, when asked how many legs his calf would have if he called its tail a leg, replied, ” Five,” to which the prompt response was made that calling the tail a leg would not make it a leg.

Calling diffusion an injection does not make it an injection. Calling an inoculation an infection does not make it an infection. We have repeatedly refuted #209, #386, and #415 using the correct scientific definitions. You are misusing these terms to poison the well.

Even news editors know what pathogens are. So no, they will not use terms like bullet and knife infections.

Alas, that was back in the good old days before people decided that the consensus meanings of words could be ignored, and that they were free to come up with their own definitions that were more supportive of the case they were arguing.

W. Kevin Vicklund,

Calling diffusion an injection does not make it an injection. Calling an inoculation an infection does not make it an infection. We have repeatedly refuted #209, #386, and #415 using the correct scientific definitions. You are misusing these terms to poison the well.

No. What I see is profound germ-denialism with persistent contradiction.

Time to killfile the Thing. He/She is becoming repetitive and boring to read. And still makes up definitions to words. I have more to my life than deal with the Thing.

Thing, meet killfile. Killfile, meet Thing. Enjoy each other.

You know, Th1Th2 never did answer my request for evidence.

Th1Th2 never did answer my request for evidence.

Evidence? Eveedense? Humpty Dumpty don’t need no damn eveee-dense!
It don’t need none of them damned edukase-shuns either!

Chris,

Actually a course in basic English might be more appropriate. She keeps using definitions of several words that only make sense to her, and no one else.

How about simply looking at the anatomy of the skin before you embarrass yourself again and again? Have you forgotten what you said?

Because it is obvious you don’t even know how to look at a drawing and notice that there were no veins in them. Do you even know the difference between veins, arteries, capillaries and muscle?

Now where is your own version of the skin which you claimed does not consist of blood vessels?

How about a trivia for the confused and obtuse.

Q.Each square inch of the human skin consists of how many feet of blood vessels?
A. 20 feet.

Sauceress,

Evidence? Eveedense? Humpty Dumpty don’t need no damn eveee-dense!
It don’t need none of them damned edukase-shuns either!

Evidence of ignorance and humiliation, you sure have plenty of it. Check out #303 and #372.

Chris,

And Thing answers Chris’ question about whether Thing knows the difference between veins, arteries, capillaries and muscle with a resounding ‘no!’ (and with a dirty great strawman, but who’s keeping track of Thing1Thing2’s straw army?)

You are just as confused. Check out #265. Do you also have your new version of the skin anatomy?

Th1Th2, you’re assuming that there are only two extremes, that vaccines always cause infection, or that they never cause infection. I said that the live-virus vaccine caused a minor infection, I never claimed a killed virus could infect people. You claimed that ALL vaccinations cause infections, please provide evidence for that.

Also, do you have any evidence that veins and capillaries are identical?

Evidence of ignorance and humiliation, you sure have plenty of it. Check out #303 and #372.

My responses are in moderation.

@#434

Q.Each square inch of the human skin consists of how many feet of blood vessels?
A. 20 feet.

A Vein is a blood vessel, but a blood vessel is not necessarily a vein. Do you understand?

Gray,

Also, do you have any evidence that veins and capillaries are identical?

Who said they are identical?

Gray,

Not good enough. My body provides a strong immune response against pollen, and that certainly isn’t an infection. Try again.

It’s not an infection; it’s called shameless ignorance. Anybody with a brainstem knows that infections are caused by pathogens and not allergens. I did call you a germ-denialist for a reason. Of course, you will never stop ridiculing yourself.

You did, when you pointed the number of blood vessels per square inch in a body, and claimed that as proof that vaccines are administered intravenously.

Check out #157. This what I said. “Parenteral vaccines are administered into areas which are highly vascularized i.e. abundant blood supply found in the deltoid.”

Of course, vaccines can also be given intravenously. Check out #77 and #99. Do you have any problem with that?

I withdraw my suggestion that Th1Th2 should take immunology classes. I would not wish to be responsible in any way for a teacher’s nervous breakdown.

Th1Th2, please provide evidence for your claims. Don’t just say things like “Anybody with a brainstem knows that”, I’ve heard similar arguments from white supremacists.

You are clearly very, very confused about basic microbiology and immunology.

No, no, no!

The problem is that that the rest of us don’t speak Thinglish.

icasshole@454:

HORRORS!!! OMG! OMG! OMG!!!! An ad (public service announcement) that lets people know they have a CHOICE whether to have themselves or their child lies to people to imply that they would be injected with a possibly harmful, possibly ineffective substance!

FIFY.

Chris, not a clinician but a rocket scientist and childhood military traveler therefore knows everything about everything:

can you please tell us why a supplement seller (Mercola) and a public relations mavin (Barbara Loe Fisher) are a better source of medical information than the American Academy of Pediatrics?

http://www.mercola.com/forms/background.htm

http://www.nvic.org/about.aspx

Mercola’s pediatric’s and vaccine research papers?

As soon as you give ORAC’s peer reviewed of the same.

BTW the AAP is a trade organization. As a trade organization it’s first and foremost duty is to it’s professional members. It seeks to protect itself’s interests and the interest’s of it’s members.

Vaccination is a major part of it’s financial business.

Augustine: You are absolutely clueless and talking out of your a**. It is one thing to talk about Big Pharma making money off vaccines, but you betray your utter ignorance when you imply that pediatricians make a buch of money off vaccines.

Uh, have you ever heard of a well baby visit? If it weren’t for vaccines then those visits wouldn’t exist. It doesn’t take a doctor to weigh a baby.

And pediatricians in general don’t make a bunch of money (relatively speaking),and I didn’t imply that they did. But the vaccine visit comprises a major part of practice. But I would guess that the AAP has just a teenie bit more money than a pediatrician in private practice. And when you add up all of the pediatricians influenced by the AAP, that’s a lot of money that flows and changes hands.

Have you ever taken your child in for a check up?

I suspect Augustine’s child is imaginary just like his evidence.

CG,

Tissue invasion is not a requirement for infection. E. coli O157:H7 doesn’t leave the intestine, yet it still causes an infection.

You’re bluffing again. I was surprised you never mentioned any of the the common childhood diseases a.k.a. VPDs as good examples of nasty infections. Don’t you guys preach this all the time? I mean polio causing paralysis, measles -> encephalitis, pertussis -> pneumonia and so on and so forth. Instead you chose E. coli O157:H7 because “it doesn’t leave the intestine”? Oh really? Or maybe because something else is causing the kidneys to fail. eh? (Hint: HUS)

I hate to play this cared, you are arguing with a microbiologist who studies an animal commensal and a human pathogen.

You’re no different than any of those clueless pretenders.

The difference between colonization and infection is a very fine line.

Then tell me the difference instead of contradicting yourself when you claimed this…

And the establishment of an infective agent is, by definition, a colonization.

Krebiozen,

Well, the burden of proof is yours to support CG’s false claim that “Tissue invasion is not a requirement for infection.” Again there are a dozen *sigh* VPDs to choose from but why pick on the E. coli O157:H7? For someone who is unable to distinguish colonization from infection is definitely a clueless pretender. Let’s start with that first.

So let me get this straight…they are promoting “get informed” and you are stating that they are quacks and anti-vaccine “loons”??? So are you one of the those “just follow your government, don’t ask questions” people as well? got to say, I am with the pro freedom, pro American, pro choice, pro HUMAN “loons”. God, it feels good to be a loon!!

It looks like the Jumbotron is up for grabs to anyone with the cash to pay for it. The International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society (ILADS) is also running an ad of their own, claiming to inform the public about Lyme disease. Unfortunately, much of what they have to say is unreliable and/or misleading. Is there an adult in charge of supervising the content of the Jumbotron, or is it nothing more than a giant, electronic graffiti machine?