Autism One: The yearly anti-vaccine quackfest begins

You’d think there would be some universal danger in having so much woo gathered in one place…..

There certainly is no consistency with their positions….

There certainly is no consistency with their positions.

There is a meta-consistency: Vaccines are Teh Evil.
Another consistent position: Lie.

I’ve never understood why homeopaths are against vaccines. I mean, with vaccines, aren’t you using “like cures like”, or something similar? Okay, yes, vaccines are based on science and study, and not purest crapola, but, still there’s a vague similarity there.

It’s less vague than the amount of active ingredients in their magic water, that’s for damned sure.

Autism is a disease that we must not overlook the fact already than anyone else is free to a family member suffers from her.

Why just the other day we had a commenter chastising Orac and the other commenters for pushing the idea that all chiropractors are operating from unscientific and pseudoscientific beliefs. Then lo and behold right there at Autism One is another bunch of chiropractors looking to cure autism through CST and energy balancing.

This looks more like the place where chiropractors deserve to be, at a big gathering of their peers.

There seem to be many scheduled talks. I hope some of them have real science based information in them, but I don’t have the time or expertise to judge just looking at the title and speaker of each talk.

I actually feel a tiny bit sorry for Andrew Wakefield. He had a good education in science-based medicine and worked for years in reputable hospitals. Now he finds himself surrounded by people who talk about ill-ness, homeopathy and related quackery, which he must surely know is absolute boll-ocks.

@John C. Welch
Vaccines are similar to homeopathy but they haven’t been through the process of dilution and succussion to eliminate their toxic (and other) effects. Plus, of course, they actually work.

@TBruce:
Agreed. Were I a parent who had a child diagnosed as autistic, and if this was the first time I attended this conference, I’d find about 15% of the agenda useful and woo-free- the overwhelming majority, however – oh, well- harmful in prevention, harmful in treatment.
If it is not science-based, all one has is a bazaar of the bizarre, reminiscent of the traveling medicine men of the Old West.
Oh, and Jenny McCarthy will speak again. It’d be great to have her insights, gleaned from the University of Google.

try The One Quackery To Rule Them All, courtesy of Julianne Adams

Any relation to Mike?

She even uses a term that I hate, a term that is as good an indicator that you’re dealing with a woo-meister as any I can think of, “dis-ease.”

How is dis ease different from dat ease over dere?

Succussion: vigorous shaking with impact between each dilution, brings out the healing action of the substance while eliminating any toxic effects of the original substance

I guess that’s why no one has ever gotten food poisoning from a milkshake

Water is able to “copy” and transfer information

Great! We can use it to make hard drives!

“CST has been shown to help the individual with autistic features gain a calmer and more relaxed state of being by decreasing structural stress and strain.”

Great! Everyone move to the Central time zone! But only between November and April (unless it’s Indiana). CDT doesn’t work quite so well, unfortunately.

I think the real surprise here is that someone would choose Lombard as their favorite city.

They used to meet right near O’Hare. I wonder why they’re in the wilderness?

Lawrence

There certainly is no consistency with their positions

They are consistently wrong. They will bend logic and evidence any way they must to be the furthest thing from right.

It’s sad to see there are speakers listed here who appear to be doing real behavioural, developmental or neurological research (Maybe 5%). At least, they haven’t used woo words or proposed back-to-nature diets and lifestyle restrictions that’ll magically cure autism. Those speakers are in for a lot of cringing. I hope they bring some serious painkillers. They’ll need ’em.

More importantly, there’s no good evidence to support its use in autism.

@24:
Where marijuana is promoted as an autism “cure”, I expect that it WILL involve administration to preteens and even younger children. That is, obviously, a line that even those who are open-minded about legal and medicinal marijuana are likely to be leary about crossing.

Also, I am inclined to take this lineup as a sign of a tide turning against the Geiers. Ultimately, whatever else might be said of their Lupon protocol, it involves an actual medical product that could reasonably be expected to do SOMETHING of an objective medical nature. How can that compete with homeopathic remedies that by definition are placebos?

@Trish

I’d suggest that you not be so quick to dismiss the folks commenting here as not knowing what autism is like. Many of the commenters are either parents of children with autism or have interacted first-hand with children (and adults) with autism. Some commenters are even autistic themselves.

We know it is hard. We know about the emotional strain, and our compassion is with anyone who has to deal with that. However, that does not mean that we are not going to call out quacks who prey upon parents like you, who take away precious resources to help people affected by an ASD.

We get upset because charlatans like Wakefield cast a pall on autism research, slowing down progress. We are angry because quacks like the Geiers essentially experiment on children and may even be defrauding insurance companies.

There is research looking into the cause(s) of autism. Take a look at someplace like the Autism Science Foundation or the Lurie Family Autism Center in Boston. Regarding vaccines, if you take a look at the scientific consensus, you’ll see that there are lots and lots of studies that have looked at vaccines as a possible cause and come up empty; so much so that we can safely state that vaccines do not cause autism.

I do not doubt that you are educated, but one thing that all of us need to keep in mind is that we do not know everything. We do not have the years of specialized training that others have. I am not trained as a nuclear engineer, so I’m not going to go around saying I know more than one. Likewise, I’m not a trained physician or neurologist nor am I trained in childhood development or psychology. “Common sense” about such topics is very likely going to be wrong. There are factors and details that “common” people like you or me just don’t know about.

But we can go to those who do know. We can talk to them and learn. My suggestion, if you are really interested in learning and expanding your knowledge, go to specialists in the subject of interest. For autism, talk to people who have a strongly established background relating to it; people like developmental pediatricians, neurologists, institutes focusing on research into the subject. If you like, I can put you in touch with some folks who are actively researching autism.

Shoot me an e-mail at todd [at] harpocratesspeaks [dot] com.

Lombard isn’t exactly out in the sticks and is, as suburbs go, a nice town. If you’re there in May check out the annual Lilac festival. It’s fairly close to O’Hare. I suspect that they chose Lombard as it is, sadly, the home of the “National University of Health Sciences” formerly known as the “National College of Chiropractic.” I suspect that’s the site of the meeting and may account for the oddly large number of chiropracters on the schedule.

Trish, from one mum of an autistic child to another, you do not speak for us all. It is BECAUSE I love my son that I will not subject him to anything and everything to “cure” him. There are safe and effective therapies already available that help our children function better in this world – physiotherapy, occupational therapy, speech therapy, use of PECS, to some extent ABA (though there are some legitimate concerns there), educational psychology, etc. You don’t have to turn to unproven (and in many cases, disproven) options that potentially and actually harm our children.

I understand your desperation, but that does not forgive these people making money off it with false theories and therapies. It is our responsibility to do the best by our children, it is not our responsibility to try every new thing that comes along to save them; that is irresponsible. Please don’t let your desperation let people take advantage of you.

My son has classic autism, it used to be particularly severe. Over years of therapy he has greatly improved. We never sunk money into these unproven / disproven therapies, but we came close a number of times because we got sucked in by the hype. It is our responsibility to figure out the quakery from the reality though. When someone like Orac goes out of his way in his posts to explain false theories and attack dangerous unproven treatments, you should be grateful he made the effort – it’s more than the people at that conference are doing – rather than attack him for giving a shit.

That is because Th1Th2 just found out they all contain dihydrogen monoxide!

The Westin Lombard is the venue for the Illinois Department of Public Health summit in June. Oh, the irony.

You mean that vaccines contain water. So what? Is that a hoax?

“That is because Th1Th2 just found out they all contain dihydrogen monoxide!”

That reminds me of yesterday at the doctor’s office, getting my youngest his chicken pox vaccine: The nurse is going through her extensive paperwork to get my son’s medical history relevant to the vaccine, and to make sure I understand all the risks of the vaccine. (Interesting that not once did she explain the risks and side effects of chicken pox, anyway…) At one stage she shows me the list of ingredients and asks whether he is allergic to anything in the list, as she runs her finger down it item by item. Bottom of the list was “water”. I couldn’t help but smile at the time and was rather tempted to say that last one looked pretty dodgy.

Chris,

I wouldn’t be too quick dismissing the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide. After all, it is a significant cause of death, especially during the summer months. It is not widely known, but many of the people who died in the Titanic disaster did so because of acute exposure to high levels of inhaled dihydrogen monoxide.

Also, studies have shown that almost all autistic children have high levels of blood dihydrogen monoxide, presumably from their childhood vaccines, which contain concentrations of dihydrogen monoxide that exceed the toxic level in humans.

Prometheus

@ Trish: Many posters here are the parents of children who have been diagnosed with autism and other developmental disabilities. And, many of us have a science background.

Those of us with developmentally disabled children know only too well the commitment you have made to your child. And, you don’t need to have a handicapped child to feel empathy for the parents who deal with their child’s problems 24/7 for years on end…while still maintaining a family structure.

It seems as though you are “still on the fence” regarding immunizations and you express some anger directed at your child’s pediatrician and yourself for “allowing” immunization of your child. Please don’t do this to yourself because it has been proven over and over again that there is no link between any childhood vaccine, series of vaccines, combined vaccines with the onset of autism.

As the parent of a multiply-disabled son with a rare genetic disorder with “autistic-like” behaviors and as a public health nurse, I hope that you will peruse the many recent studies that have totally debunked the vaccine-autism link.

Some good websites:

Immunize.org

Immunization Action Coalition

American Academy of Pediatrics-Vaccines

That is because Th1Th2 just found out they all contain dihydrogen monoxide!

Do you know how many people die from that every year?? And yet we inject it into our children!

I was born and raised in Chicago; my mom got her PhD from UofC. I hate to see crap like this going down there.

Well, Promethesus, someone told me recently there is a big difference between aluminum in the environment and in the body. It is obvious that may also be the case with H₂O!

So these same germ-denialists would prefer the name dihydrogen monoxide rather than simply calling it water. I see.

Methinks the fool can’t tell when it’s being mocked.

Actually, water intoxication is a real problem, particularly in infants.

Of course, some animals (and some marathon runners) die from drinking too much water; this leads to low sodium levels, seizures, and perhaps death. Water intoxication is common in infants and children, too. Health authorities recommend that infants should not be given ANY water.

Federal guidelines incorporate a series of “uncertainty factors” to determine safe dosage levels, especially in particularly vulnerable populations such as infants and children; each of the five typical uncertainty factors may require on the order of a ten-fold reduction in exposure. However, even if you know that a certain level of a compound produces no adverse events in studies of humans, the ca. ten-fold “Uncertainty Factor-Human” is generally invoked to account for individual variability. Thus a Federal guideline on the safe dosage of water for an infant would be about one-tenth of none whatsoever, and vaccine-phobic parents should be quick to recognize that the injection of even a tiny quantity of water in a vaccine would obviously constitute an alarming hazard.

Just don’t try to dispose of water down the sink.

Actually, water dihydrogen monoxide intoxication is a real problem[…]

Be specific. Some bloggers here deny the existence of water.

Hmmmm! It seems they’re doing bridge maintenance again.

Cannabis has known anti-anxiety properties

Notoriously unreliable ones, of course.

(And, really, “Lombard” just seemed uproariously funny when I tumbled out of bed. No slight intended. That I reserve for Villa Park.)

So much for sharp teeth, eh?

I don’t think people here fear jabberwockies. Maybe you do, though.

Actually, water dihydrogen monoxide intoxication is a real problem[…]

Be specific. Some bloggers here deny the existence of water.

By that line of thinking, Austrailian ute drivers deny the existence of pick-ups.

Remember, everyone, Th1Th2 is always intentionally obtuse, and discussions with her will go in circles – like a downward spiral. You think you’ll be making progress, and several hours later *BAM!* you find yourself back at point 1.

So these same germ-denialists would prefer the name dihydrogen monoxide rather than simply calling it water. I see.

My cat’s breath smells like cat food.

@ Narad: “Lombard” seems pretty hilarious to me as I recall that while reading *The Economist* some years back, a person was described as a “LOMBARD” : no, not a native of “Lombardy” but (as acronym) standing for “Lots of money but a real di@khead”

I listened to some of that interview with the Geiers. Just statements like “We don’t chelate” … and more nonsense about precocious puberty (which, apparently, they wouldn’t know if it bit them on the…y’know).

Wait, wait, I thought the whole justification of the Lupron therapy was testosterone was binding mercury up into “sheets”, making it harder to chelate. So they’re stilling using Lupron, but have completely changed the rational for using it?

Remember, everyone, Th1Th2 is always intentionally obtuse, and discussions with her will go in circles – like a downward spiral. You think you’ll be making progress, and several hours later *BAM!* you find yourself back at point 1.

I gave up when she claimed that immunoincompetent people have asymptomatic infections.

Don’t these people know they can go to any mainsteam Doctor and get a referral (after being on a waiting list for a year or more) for “memorize and get a treat therapy” from a 19 year old high school graduate at $45,000/yr plus? With this cutting edge treatment being offered by mainstream medicine why would anyone even consider this quackery?

Just because you don’t think the mashed potatoes are tasty or nutritious or much of a bargain doesn’t mean the answer is to buy the magic beans that the guy in the alleyway is selling.

Polly @20. You’re obviously referring to ABA, which is hardly considered “mainstream” (at least not where I live). We did a bit of ABA for a while, but it hadn’t been recommended to us by any doctor, it was via the local Autism charity. I wasn’t too keen on their methods so didn’t stick with it for long (a few hours a week for a couple of terms) but by golly they got some good and long-lasting results that have significantly helped our son.

You make it sound like that’s the only thing on offer from “mainstream” sources. What about speech therapy, PECS, social stories, physiotherapy, occupational therapy, visual schedules, just for starters. All mainstream, all effective, and not one of them leave your child castrated or dead. Bonus.

Oh. Satire. *Blushes* Sorry, I got that the last bit about the risks of injecting water was satire, but not where the satire started. I know they have recommendations about putting babies to bed on their backs (or not) and not giving them pillows or blankets, but I haven’t paid too much attention so it was credible to me that maybe you really weren’t supposed to give fluids in the form of water.

Speaking of what you should or should feed to babies, has the pediatrician to the stars shown up lately?

LW, funny you should ask, because I saw this comment come up on my Twitter feed today from Dr. Jay:

“Been thinking about no longer arguing with parents about vaccines and instead just give DTaPs and MMRs when they ask. A one year trial to see if any kids experience regressive events. The morality is questionable (abhorrent to some) but is it really my right to use my influence and impose my belief that vaccines increase the incidence of autism at the expense of their kids being at higher risk of these illnesses when the majority of experts disagree? (Right now, I argue fiercely about the timing and need for these shots.)”

WTH
1) So he ACTIVELY tries to persuade parents against vaccinating their kids if they come into his office and request the shots.

2) He is going to run his own “experiment” on children. Even if I think that his giving vaxes will cause no uptick in “regressive events” there is something disturbing to me about suggesting a passive experiment like this with no oversight.

“Right now, I argue fiercely about the timing and need for these shots.)”

Didn’t he deny being antivax, and whine whenever people called him that?

Matthew Cline,

I gave up when she claimed that immunoincompetent people have asymptomatic infections.

You’re so easy.

Unusual Presentation of Measles Giant Cell Pneumonia in a Patient with Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome

The typical clinical presentation of measles in a normal immunocompetent host includes cough, coryza, conjunctivitis, Koplik’s spots, and rash. However, in an immunocompromised host, measles may have an atypical clinical presentation and may be commonly associated with severe pneumonia or encephalitis. We report a fatal case of measles pneumonia without any clinical features that suggest measles in a patient with acquired immunodeficiency syndrome.

Next please.

If he’s factually correct, isn’t that always of primary importance?

If I’m factually correct then what’s your problem?

Before vaccine 99.99 % of people did not die or have permanent disability from measles. I’m not taking a measles vaccine.

Why don’t Science Based medicine cultists like that? It’s factual.

I’ve always encountered them couching the debate in terms of “here’s the risk with the vaccine, here’s the risk if you catch the disease, here’s the chances of catching the disease”.

If that’s all they did then there wouldn’t be much argument. But that’s not all they do, now is it?

Before vaccine 99.99 % of people did not die or have permanent disability from measles.

Assuming that’s true, then the 0.01% still causes nearly 1 million deaths per year to this day.

Before vaccine 99.99 % of people did not die or have permanent disability from measles. I’m not taking a measles vaccine.

HUGE citations required:

Which “people” – age, socioeconomic & health status?
From which countries?
Where did you get the 99.99% number?
Are your sources credible?

Manderin

HUGE citations required:

Tell me I’m wrong first and that you’re absolutely certain that I’m wrong. The country is the U.S.

Thingy once again shows reading comprehension is far beyond its abilities.

Atypical clinical presentation does not mean asymptomatic.

@ Jarred C / Mandrellian

Re: 99.99% not dying from measles

Deja vu all over again.
We (that is, us vs Augustine) already had this discussion many times last year, like in this thread. Ask Zetetic.

The numbers are true, sort of. From what I remember, the rate of serious complications from measles is in the 1/1000, and not all complications are lethal (but they sure could be painful or/and have lasting effects – but a little pain is good for character build-up, isn’t it?).
If the conversation continues like last time, Augustine is going to gloss over the fact that the vaccine lowers the measles complication rate tremendously, and itself has a complication rate in the 1/million.
Actually, last time, Augustine was only talking about death from measles vs vaccine. It is now including other lasting negative effects in its 99.9+% number.

Hellacious,
You remember so well.

@90
Beat me to it!

Asymptomatic means “without symptoms”.

The quoted paper says there were no clinical signs of measles; it does not say the patient was asymptomatic.

I’d have thought anyone would realise that death is a pretty major symptom, but apparently not Thingy!

No-one could possibly have predicted that a troll would re-define the word “asymptomatic” to mean “having symptoms”.

Heliantius

The numbers are true, sort of.

No, they are true all the way. They are factually correct.

Stuartg,

The quoted paper says there were no clinical signs of measles; it does not say the patient was asymptomatic.

Oh the stupidity is just so amazing. It is asymptomatic infection because an asymptomatic infection is also known as subclinical infection.

A subclinical infection is the asymptomatic (without apparent sign) carrying of an (infection) by an individual of an agent (microbe, intestinal parasite, or virus) that usually is a pathogen causing illness, at least in some individuals.

-Wiki

I’d have thought anyone would realise that death is a pretty major symptom, but apparently not Thingy!

Death is not a symptom, Stupidity is.

Am I the only one who can’t read “craniosacral therapy” without thinking heads up asses?

Chris

Plus, it is our experience that those who refuse to provide any evidence is just making it up.

So, am i making it up?

I’m asking because I want you to be on the receiving end. Put your neck out there, please.

Little Augie, you seem to always provide evidence that you are only twelve years old. Of course, most children get over having temper tantrums by the time they are ten. You must be just a wee bit slower to grow up.

By the way, young man, most of us do provide verifiable scientific documentation of our claims. So stop being silly, either put up or shut up.

Suddenly a lull.

Gee…at 3:08 in the morning? Fascinating! I wonder what possibly could have produced a lull at 3:08 in the morning? Are you drunk Th1Th2?

Pigs become excited at feeding time and squeal or grunt until fed. After eating, they quiet down and often doze until the next feeding[…]

Oh right. Must remember that quote next time you disappear from the blog for a few hours.

Augustine claimed:

Before vaccine 99.99 % of people did not die or have permanent disability from measles

Here are some highlights from an article entitled, ‘The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review’.

Before vaccination measles virus infected 95%–98% of children by age 18 years

Vaccination protects >90% of recipients against disease

Complications by age for reported measles cases, United States,1987–2000
67,032 cases
Death 177 (0.3%)
Diarrhea 5482 (8.2%)
Encephalitis 97 (0.1%)
Hospitalization 12,876 (19.2%)
Otitis media 4879 (7.3%)
Pneumonia 3959 (5.9%)

Even if you only include death, encephalitis and pneumonia as serious complications (though diarrhea and otitis media can be very serious too, and hospitalization does imply some degree of seriousness) that puts total serious complications at 6.3%, though we don’t know how many were permanently disabled.

Unless measles morbidity and mortality have worsened considerably since vaccination was introduced, which seems somewhat unlikely, Augustine is wrong by a factor of at least 30.

I can’t believe I’m going to defend the pediatrician to the stars, but here goes:

“Been thinking about no longer arguing with parents about vaccines and instead just give DTaPs and MMRs when they ask. A one year trial to see if any kids experience regressive events.”

Some commenters have been describing this as human experimentation requiring an IRB’s approval, but I don’t see that. He calls it a “trial” but what he’s really saying is that he will finally start following AAP recommendations for vaccination (if and only if the parents are savvy enough to know those requirements and brave enough to directly request them). The only thing being tested is whether his antivax convictions are impervious to reality or not. 

Given that he’s only going to follow the recommendations of the rest of the medical profession, I do not see how this constitutes experimentation any more than a doctor saying, “the recommended treatment for this condition is this, so we’ll try it and see if you get better.”

But I’m not a doctor or a researcher, so I’m happy to be corrected by those who know better.  

@LW: “Given that he’s only going to follow the recommendations of the rest of the medical profession, I do not see how this constitutes experimentation any more than a doctor saying, “the recommended treatment for this condition is this, so we’ll try it and see if you get better.”

I agree with you, but the way he said it just rubbed me all sorts of wrong. I guess because, in HIS mind, he is going to be doing an experiment, and to him its okay to just launch into that without any sort of oversight. Also, in HIS mind, he is going to be hurting kids and he is okay with that.

@ Heliantus: Another example of reacting/not reacting to an antigen would be those who are seriously immune suppressed (AIDs) who may not mount an immune response following the administration of purified protein derivative intradermally for Mantoux testing for TB. Also those who have miliary TB infection may not react to Mantoux testing.

In the clinical area, patients who require whole blood or packed cells transfusions have their blood cross matched and cross typed against donor whole blood or donor packed cells…to avoid transfusion reactions. Two more instances where antigens do not cause infections.

(anecdotal) At eight days of age when my 5 lb. baby was to undergo heart catheterization, I was directed to the blood bank at the hospital for a blood draw for matching and typing due to possible trans-placental blood antigens. He lost one-tenth of his blood volume during catheterization and was transfused with 20 cc. of blood.

Justin:

Thoughts?

That you need to provide some reasons for your ideas. What studies are you basing them on, and please not something that goes down to how you “feel” about them.

@Justin

I need to echo Chris and TBruce. Is there some research upon which you base your reservations, or is it stemming from a “what if” kind of feeling?

If the former, well, we’d need to take a look at the particular studies that are giving you pause before we can offer any meaningful feedback. If the latter, I’d would simply say that we cannot live our lives getting swamped in an ocean of “what ifs” and groundless speculation. We need to operate on what we know and what we can reasonably speculate as a plausible outcome. If there is no firm basis to the speculation, then it is essentially meaningless (at least until such time as more evidence arises).

@Justin

Just a quick note regarding your comment about cytokines. My understanding is that your body would produce more cytokines during a natural infection as compared to what is produced following a vaccine.

As to the preliminary or emerging research, I would suggest waiting. Lots of preliminary research ends up being wrong. As more and more evidence mounts, either the finding doesn’t hold up, or the observed effects gradually decrease. So wait and see what happens. It may be that these emerging ideas are valid, or it might turn out that they are mistaken.

Justin (#122) has concern about:

“…the potential ability of the vaccine to program the innate immune system in ways that may be detrimental to the child.”

I’d have to ask what evidence Justin has that vaccines “program” the innate immune system at all.

The problem with using vague terms like “program” is that people of different backgrounds and different degrees of familiarity with the subject may interpret them differently.

To me, the term “program” implies that the innate immune system somehow changes in response to a vaccine so that its subsequent behavior is substantially different. Since one of the key features of the innate immune system is that it doesn’t adapt in response to challenges, I’m not clear to what Justin is referring.

Perhaps this is simply a problem of imprecise terminology, but I’d appreciate hearing how Justin believes the innate immune system is “programmed” by vaccines and how this might be deterimental to children.

Prometheus

Justin:

Take some immunology courses – real ones, at a real school. You appear to have an interest in the subject, but you talk like someone who got a lot of information from Google U. (And not to be pedantic, but ‘weary’ means ‘tired,’ it’s not a combination of ‘wary’ and ‘leery.’)

The innate immune system and its interactions with the adaptive immune system is a wonderful system that is still being very actively investigated, and is far too complex for sound bites on a blog. Cytokines are highly diverse in effect (both in terms of cytokines having distinct effects from each other, and individual cytokines having differing effects depending on the context) and interact with each other in complex ways.

And don’t forget there’s rather an abundance of evidence that show that vaccines are not associated with a greater incidence of autism, so you would have to generate these hypotheses to be tested based on vaccines causing autism but not, er, causing autism…

And also don’t forget that natural infections that vaccines protect against activate the innate and adpative immune systems like gangbusters.

Th1Th2
So you claim that an infection is an immune response caused by a pathogen, and a pathogen is something that causes an infection.

Do you not notice the circular logic there? A dead virus causes an infection because it is a pathogen, and you know it is a pathogen because it causes an infection. And round and round the argument goes.

There’s a blog post by Seth Mnookin about the financial implications of the US measles outbreaks that is worth reading if you haven’t seen it already.

Isn’t Seth Moonkin is a former heroine addict?

If Rosalind Franklin counts, I think I’m rather partial to heroines, too.

Krebiozen,

Th1Th2
So you claim that an infection is an immune response caused by a pathogen, and a pathogen is something that causes an infection.

Do you not notice the circular logic there? A dead virus causes an infection because it is a pathogen, and you know it is a pathogen because it causes an infection. And round and round the argument goes.

Well, it’s circular hence it’s called the chain of infection. And that precisely is the goal of vaccination: infection-promotion.

You: You are spinning round and round with germ-denialism.

@little augie: yes, he WAS once a heroin addict. He admits it. He also had the strenght of will to quit with help from his family and medicine.

Unlike the AOA hero RFK, Jr, who also was an addict and had to be forced into recovery by the courts.

I know who I would rather trust. And no, it’s not someone who denied his problems and had to be forced into doing something.

Well, let’s see – we elected at least one President (twice, even) who was an admitted addict (recovered)…..so trying to use that as some reason not to accept actual facts is pretty damn stupid.

But then again, what else would we expect from boring troll.

Roadstergal,

And also don’t forget that natural infections that vaccines protect against activate the innate and adpative immune systems like gangbusters.

First, learn how you would protect yourself from acquiring the live measles virus in the vaccine before you can talk about secondary exposure to natural infection. Understood? Don’t put the cart before the horse.

So, boring troll – care to actually respond?

Augustine claimed:

Before vaccine 99.99 % of people did not die or have permanent disability from measles
Here are some highlights from an article entitled, ‘The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review’.

Before vaccination measles virus infected 95%–98% of children by age 18 years

Vaccination protects >90% of recipients against disease

Complications by age for reported measles cases, United States,1987–2000
67,032 cases
Death 177 (0.3%)
Diarrhea 5482 (8.2%)
Encephalitis 97 (0.1%)
Hospitalization 12,876 (19.2%)
Otitis media 4879 (7.3%)
Pneumonia 3959 (5.9%)

Even if you only include death, encephalitis and pneumonia as serious complications (though diarrhea and otitis media can be very serious too, and hospitalization does imply some degree of seriousness) that puts total serious complications at 6.3%, though we don’t know how many were permanently disabled.

Unless measles morbidity and mortality have worsened considerably since vaccination was introduced, which seems somewhat unlikely, Augustine is wrong by a factor of at least 30.

My heroine vote goes for Danica McKellar. At least she understands mathematics, which is more than we can say for Augustine.

I asked Th1Th2 “Do you not notice the circular logic there?”. She answered:

Well, it’s circular hence it’s called the chain of infection. And that precisely is the goal of vaccination: infection-promotion.
You: You are spinning round and round with germ-denialism.

That would be a “no” then.

CG,

It’s actually about infected individual infecting another.

Precisely, what OPV does. It promotes secondary transmission to others.

Something vaccination prevents.

Some vaccines are killed which do NOT promote transmissible infection to others. But what’s the point of secondary infection when every one else in the household and the community is intentionally infected by the killed vaccine.

Prometheus,

I know I’m going against my own suggestion, but is it possible that Th1Th2 read “injection” somewhere and saw “infection” instead and that is the reason he/she conflates the two? Otherwise, it simply doesn’t make sense.

If the injection consists of known pathogen, then it’s infection.

Just for the record, intra-household transmission of live attenuated vaccines has been documented on occasion to immune-compromised subjects. There is also, if I recall correctly, one documented case of a recently vaccinated child transmitting the measles vaccine strain to their younger (unvaccinated)immunocompetent sibling.

I wouldn’t be surprised. But then again, many have acquired primary infection through direct inoculation.

I think what has a lot of people (no names, please) confused is that the oral polio virus has a propensity to “revert” to wild-type because the mutation causing attenuation is a relatively few bases. When this happens, it isn’t the vaccine strain that is causing any disease (although the term is Vaccine Associated Paralytic Polio), but a “revertant” virus – one that has reverted to wild-type.

That is demonstrably false. The revertant poliovirus is NOT the same as the wild-type poliovirus. They are distinguished from one another. It also differs from the parental OPV hence it’s called VDPV. That is, thanks to OPV, vaccinators have created another disease entity caused by a novel monster that have mutated inside the host.

If so-called “secondary transmission” was as common as certain people like to claim, there would be no need to vaccinate large numbers of people – we could simply vaccinate a few and rely on them to spread the live attenuated virus to others. Unfortunately, that doesn’t work with immunocompetent people except rarely.

But still you’re promoting infection even to the immunocompromised. Not good.

infected by the killed vaccine.

You’ve been told many, many times how much nonsense that sentence is. If anyone ever though Th1Th2 understood a damn thing about immunology, that sentence alone should dispel that belief.

That is, thanks to OPV, vaccinators have created another disease entity caused by a novel monster that have mutated inside the host.

Except they didn’t. The OPV strain, even the revertant, still dies out. It can infect a few people, but never enough to continue the chain of infection. Unlike the wild type polio virus it simply cannot survive in the real world.

CG,

You’ve been told many, many times how much nonsense that sentence is. If anyone ever though Th1Th2 understood a damn thing about immunology, that sentence alone should dispel that belief.

I would expect that coming from a germ-denialist.

Except they didn’t. The OPV strain, even the revertant, still dies out. It can infect a few people, but never enough to continue the chain of infection.

What kind of contradiction is that?

Unlike the wild type polio virus it simply cannot survive in the real world.

Well, in the real world, VDPV will survive for as long as OPV is used.

I would expect that coming from a germ-denialist.

And you apparently believe in zombie pathogens, capable of causing an infection even though they are actually dead.

What kind of contradiction is that?

You claimed:

vaccinators have created another disease entity caused by a novel monster that have mutated inside the host.

Which is wrong. It can’t survive. Calling it a monster is idiotic at best and given your behavior probably deliberate dishonesty.

My heroine vote goes for Danica McKellar.

Beatrix Potter. Her paper on lichens deserves more recognition.

another disease entity caused by a novel monster that have mutated inside the host.

Worst horror movie ever.

CG,

And you apparently believe in zombie pathogens, capable of causing an infection even though they are actually dead.

Those zombie pathogens you’re introducing into the body are foreign nonself and are recognized through their characteristic PAMPs by the host PRRs causing an immune response against that infection.

You: You don’t have one iota of evidence. The only thing you can do is to deny.

Don’t give it and you’ll have no infection. As simple as that.

Which is wrong. It can’t survive. Calling it a monster is idiotic at best and given your behavior probably deliberate dishonesty.

Trans: I am so ignorant about VDPV. I did not know about polio outbreaks in Nigeria, Haiti, Madagascar, Myanmar, China, Philippines, etc caused by VDPVs. I did not know that VDPVs will continue to emerge as long as OPV is used. I did not know that VDPVs is a different monster and distinguished from W-T and V-T poliovirus. I am so embarrassed that I didn’t know all these stuff until now.

@CG:

And you apparently believe in zombie pathogens, capable of causing an infection even though they are actually dead.

Ah, but you don’t understand the true weirdness of Th1Th2’s definition of “infection”. According to her, if a molecule is ingested by a white blood cell and then presented on the WBC’s surface, that WBC has been infected by the molecule (so long as the molecule is of a type found in a pathogen). Since the antigens in a vaccine are going to be ingested and presented by WBCs, a vaccine is going to infect a person’s WBCs. And since a person given a vaccine has infected WBCs, the person is infected. Q.E.D.

Note that (still according to Th1Th2) doesn’t mean that the molecule is going to replicate. Since infection must precede replication, it’s possible to stop at the infection stage, thus giving rise to infection without replication (so the dead pathogens aren’t zombies).

CG:

You don’t get to redefine words to better suit your purposes.

Funny, where have I seen that before? Oh, wait, from a bunch of us! CG, Th1Th2 lives in her own reality where she gets to change the definitions of words at her whim.

She is a troll, ignore her.

Heliantus,

Well, it seems so. You just agreed that you could have an immune answer without an infection by a micro-organism, did you?

Again, there are no microorganisms in your stupid example #2 (D-antigen) let alone a pathogen that would have caused an infection. It was never an infection in the first place. But why are you giving those examples? Because you’re a deliberate ignorant.

So now, explain this to me. As we have just seen, we have the technology to fool a mammal immune system into reacting to almost any antigen we choose.
So, where do we fail with vaccination against pathogens? How do you know that denaturated proteins from killed pathogens are causing an infection?

Because vaccines are derived from disease-causing microorganisms. They are alternative to natural infection.

And if I’m barking up the wrong tree, it’s because it’s the one I saw the squirrel climb up. So please explain to me where I’m mistaken so we can re-focus the debate.

You’re definitely barking up the wrong tree. You will never find the squirrel in your given examples. You are lost, that’s all there is.

intentionally infected by the killed vaccine.

Inigo Montoya has something to say…

CG,

Go back and reread it. That’s not an infection. An infection is a pathogen replicating in a host to the detriment of the host.

Germ-denialism will not end this debate. So go on.

You implied the OPV strain had evolved into a new strain of polio capable of causing persistent outbreaks. That’s not true and you very quickly moved the goalposts to hide the fact you lied.

So we have a VDPV-denier here. Great. Listen up and educate yourself non-believer!

VACCINE-DERIVED POLIOVIRUSES AND THE ENDGAME STRATEGY FOR GLOBAL POLIO ERADICATION

As the global eradication of wild poliovirus nears, the World Health Organization (WHO) is addressing challenges unprecedented in public health. The live, attenuated oral poliovirus vaccine (OPV), used for more than four decades to interrupt poliovirus transmission, and the vaccine of choice for developing countries, is genetically unstable. Reversion of the small number of substitutions conferring the attenuated phenotype frequently occurs during OPV replication in humans and is the underlying cause of the rare cases of vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis (VAPP) in OPV recipients and their close contacts. Whereas VAPP has long been recognized, two other adverse events have been identified more recently: (a) long-term excretion of highly evolved vaccine-derived polioviruses (VDPVs) in persons with primary immunodeficiencies, and (b) polio outbreaks associated with circulating VDPVs in areas with low rates of OPV coverage. Developing a posteradication strategy to minimize the risks of VDPV emergence and spread has become an urgent WHO priority.

Gray,

Central to your argument was the statement that killed virus vaccines caused infections because they created an immune response. This shows that an immune response can occur for other reasons, meaning your reasoning is incorrect.

Let me make this clear.
First identify the source: Pathogen: Yes, then it’s infection and there would be an immune response against the infection. Check #155.

Pathogen: No, then it could be others and the immune response is against the offending antigen. This is NOT to be confused as infection.

You already had the fallacy of composition explained to you, “A contain B” does not mean that B holds A’s properties. For example, the individual parts of an airplane don’t fly on their own.

PAMP is not a fallacy. Learn how to read.

First identify the source: Pathogen: Yes, then it’s infection and there would be an immune response against the infection. Check #155.
Pathogen: No, then it could be others and the immune response is against the offending antigen. This is NOT to be confused as infection.

Err, yes and no.
Yes, a live pathogen will result in an infection.
But that’s irrelevant to whether an immune response will be triggered.
Whether the antigen is from a live pathogen, from a killed bacteria, from a cancer cell, from the mother’s baby or simply some dust, the same mechanism is triggered in all cases.

First, identify a substance which is non-self.
Second, develop a specific cellular response and/or a specific humoral response.
The immune response is always against the offending antigen.

If the antigen is part of a pathogen, then your specific immune response will help you destroy your invader. If it’s not, then at best your white cells are just keeping busy; at worst, you get allergies or autoimmune diseases.

You really think we are dumb enough to inject dangerous pathogens to children? It cannot cross your mind that, just maybe, this issue occurred to the scientists who developed the first vaccines and they found ways to minimize, or completely negate the pathogenicity of the germs in the vaccines?

you are deliberately ignorant

Here goes my irony meter.
Oh, well, provide evidence supporting your view of the vaccine and the immune system, or rule 14.

So Th1Th2, does Freund’s complete adjuvant cause an infection?

@Sid Offitt I wrote that, Lawrence was quoting me as Augustine hadn’t responded.

As you must know, more infants were affected by the outbreak about which you speak because of impaired maternal antibodies passed on by vaccinated mothers. And you understand, I’m sure, that measles is more “serious” in the youngest children. Additionally, it’s more serious in adults.

The article I linked to does mention that the disease is worse in those aged under 5 and over 30. I refer you to Table 2 in that article. Here are some figures derived from that Table excluding those groups:

34,233 aged 5-29 (51%)
Death 53 (0.15%)
Encephalitis 43 (0.13%)
Pneumonia 1100 (3.2%)
Total 1196 (3.5%)

So even taking maternal antibodies (which are long gone by age 5) and later onset cases into account, the death rate is 0.15% and the overall serious complication rate is 3.5%. Ignoring the fact that there were likely to be at least as many permanent disabilities as deaths, Augustine’s figure of 0.01% deaths or permanent disabilities is still a factor of 15 out.

You state that “the new epidemic has seen 40-45% of all cases in those over 20” but the article I was quoting from found only 20% of cases (1,320 out of 67,032) were over 20.

I excluded the hospitalization rate from the serious complications I mentioned. More serious illnesses were treated at home a few decades ago, so it is not possible to meaningfully compare hospitalization rates pre and post vaccination as a means to assess the seriousness of measles. By the way, ear infections can have serious complications, like deafness, meningitis and death.

As for under-reporting, it is possible that measles cases were under-reported. It is also possible that complications as a result of measles were under-reported. Many younger doctors are unfamiliar with measles, and in immunocompromised patients it may present atypically and be misdiagnosed.

Whatever way you look at it, measles is a serious and extremely infectious illness. Vaccination against measles has prevented a great deal of suffering and deaths. I really don’t see how anyone can argue otherwise.

Saw this article, thought of you:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13561766

Autism fears from the 90s now causing rising cases of measles in Europe.

@lilady

Your post as usual makes no sense. It’s like a bunch of random words strung together. And yes, Sweetie, the measles is a MILD illness.

@Sid Offit (aka Mr. Mullet)

I guess your GED from Google High School didn’t cover reading comprehension. You may want to take some remedial courses, because, well, lilady’s post really is pretty easy to read, assuming, of course, that one understands the English language.

@Beamup

And deafness, pneumonia, severe dehydration, etc.

CG,

So Th1Th2, does Freund’s complete adjuvant cause an infection?

Yes.

Accidental self-inoculation with killed Mycobacterium tuberculosis in Freund’s complete adjuvant.

The case is described of a laboratory worker who was carrying out an animal immunological experiment and accidentally punctured the palm of his hand with Freund’s complete adjuvant which contained heat-killed M. tuberculosis in a paraffin emulsion. A serious localised chronic tuberculoid granulomatous reaction developed which persisted for nine months. The significance of this phenomenon is discussed and the importance of the prevention of such an occurrence is emphasized.

“TBruce?” Is that new? Like A-Rod or D-Wade? I like it. Anyway, I reserve the misogyny for those using derisive (yet childish) language to refer to me.

Todd. I’d love to see a photo of you on Harpo speaks. I’m sure it would draw in the ladies like flies.

SidTroll (maybe not childish enough for him) conveniently ignores plenty of facts thrown his way & instead responds with insults.

What a maroon.

You hear that Thingy? That’s the collective sound of the world’s immunologists groaning in agony at your idiocy.

Try reading that paper. I’d wager large sums of money the word infection was never used.

I knew someone who accidentally stabbed himself with a needle filled with LPS (he lived). Did he infect himself?

CG,

Try reading that paper. I’d wager large sums of money the word infection was never used.

Are you betting that the “serious localised chronic tuberculoid granulomatous reaction” was not caused by M. tuberculosis?

I knew someone who accidentally stabbed himself with a needle filled with LPS (he lived). Did he infect himself?

Then name the pathogen from which the LPS was derived.

Doesn’t bother me. Just explaining a point to T-Bruce.

Doesn’t bother me. Just explaining a point to T-Bruce.

By that reasoning, I’m sure you would have some nice names for any “insulting” commenters who are African-American or Hispanic.

@Lawrence

Hmm…three more and he’ll be Maroon 5.

CG,  

Technically it wasn’t. It was caused by killed M. tuberculosis, which isn’t really a pathogen anymore, being that it is dead.

What do you mean? The poor guy technically injected himself with M. tuberculosis which is, by the way, well known to cause tuberculoid granulomatous reaction because such granuloma formation is a hallmark of infection of pathogenic Mycobacteria spp.

 

You’ve already admitted you can have an immune response in the absence of a pathogen. That was an immune response in the absence of an infection and a living pathogen.

Fool. There was a pathogen.  Regardless whether the Mycobacteria is killed or live, granuloma formation would depend on the site of infection i.e. cutaneous infection for killed whereas if it’s live then it might involve lymphatic tissues.  Like I said before, the only thing you can do now is to echo your persistent germ-denialism.

E. coli K12, which isn’t a pathogen by any stretch of the imagination. However, it’s LPS is identical to many other strains of E. coli that are. I’m quite curious how your warped mind will handle that.

Again. Stop barking up the wrong tree. When will you ever stop humiliating yourself?  The K12 is a nonpathogenic strain of E. coli hence it’s a normal flora. It’s not the “squirrel” you’re looking for. Try E. coli O:157:H7 instead.

Sid, of course you don’t live in Rhodesia. No one lives in Rhodesia, since there’s no country by that name anymore.

Mentioned above:

“What do you mean? The poor guy technically injected himself with M. tuberculosis which is, by the way, well known to cause tuberculoid granulomatous reaction because such granuloma formation is a hallmark of infection of pathogenic Mycobacteria spp.”

While “tuberculoid” granulomas (more typically called “caseating granulomas”) are a “hallmark” of tuberculosis, their presence is not diagnostic of M. tuberculosis nor is their absence evidence that M. tuberculosis is absent. In fact, the same sort of granulomatous reaction can be seen if the purified cell wall and lipids of any of the Mycobacteriaceae are injected under the skin.

At what point is the “pathogen” so reduced to simple components that it is no longer a “pathogen”? Well, in real microbiology and immunology, once it is dead (i.e. no longer able to maintain metabolic functions and transmembrane gradients), it is no longer a “pathogen”, although (as noted above) it can still trigger a significant immune response.

Here’s the point that seems to be missed – the immune system doesn’t discriminate between live and dead bacteria; it “sees” only the molecules they are composed of. If those molecules are present (in the same concentrations), the immune reaction will be the same as if the intact organism were present. That is the essence of vaccination.

“Again. Stop barking up the wrong tree. When will you ever stop humiliating yourself? The K12 is a nonpathogenic strain of E. coli hence it’s a normal flora. It’s not the “squirrel” you’re looking for. Try E. coli O:157:H7 instead.”

In truth, E. coli K12 isn’t “normal flora” – not anymore. Although it was first isolated (1922) from presumably “normal” flora (in a patient recovering from diphtheria), its long sojourn in the lab has led it to lose some genes (the O antigen genes) and (in many lab strains) the F plasmid and the lambda phage.

However, the lipopolysaccharide (LPS) of “normal flora” E. coli and the LPS of E. coli O157:H7 will cause the same immune reaction when injected for the simple reason that the immune system responds similarly (and negatively) to all bacterial LPS. The immune system doesn’t “know” that normal gut E. coli are “normal flora” and that E. coli O157:H7 is a “pathogen” because neither are supposed to be in the blood or subcutaneous tissues.

I haven’t the slightest idea where “Th1Th2” got the notion that dead bacteria and viruses or even fragments or subunits of bacteria and viruses are “pathogens” when injected. It doesn’t make any sense and is – at best – a highly eccentric reading of a very simplistic view of the immune system’s response.

The immune system pretty much “sees” the world as divided into “self” and “not-self” and reacts against the latter. For some things (e.g. LPS), the response is “hard-wired” to be rather severe, which is why people die of septic shock.

But, as has been demonstrated repeatedly, the immune system can’t tell if the viral or bacterial antigen is displayed on an intact virus or bacteria or if it is on a styrene bead or the tip of a platinum wire or floating free in the serum – the reaction is the same.

No doubt, “Th1Th2” will see this as vindicating his/her obtuse view of the immune system, “See, the immune system reacts the same whether the bacteria is living or dead, whole or fragmented, so it’s a ‘pathogen’ no matter what!”. However, the immune system will also react in a similar way to a splinter, a bit of glass or even some of your own tissues (e.g. retina), so are these to be called “pathogens” as well?

I have no illusion that this will convince “Th1Th2” of the errors of his/her ways, but I hope this will be helpful to any readers who are confused by the argument.

Prometheus

Jud

Isn’t Saul of Tarsus a former Pharisee? I’m not asking him for religious advice. He’s a legend in his own mind.

Which would make him knowledgeable in the Torah.

Heroin use makes you an infectious disease and vaccine expert? Maybe he had divine intervention from the heroin god that has spurred him on to be passionate about writing books on mass vaccine philosophy.

Did you know that heroin addicts are not healthy people no matter how much they know about health? I wonder if he was telling his former heroin addict buddies “make sure you get your vaccinations. Those little bugs will kill you. Hey can you hold this for me? Thanks…ahhhhh. Nothing ever bad comes out of a needle. I think I’ll write a book about it.”

CG,

Which is the organism I actually work with. It was also not the source of the LPS. K12 was. So is being injected with K12 LPS an infection

First identify the source. Find the pathogen. K12 is not considered a human pathogen. Will it cause an infection? No.

And don’t try to change the subject to another organism again.

And don’t switch those LPS.

And don’t switch those LPS.

I didn’t. Commercially available LPS is always K12. That is what he stuck himself with.

Was that an infection?

You say no, since K12 isn’t a pathogen.

However, EHEC LPS is identical and it is a pathogen (of humans, not cows). So that would be an infection by your definition.

I just got Thingy to admit that identical molecules know if they are from a human pathogen. I will now stop playing with the troll.

CG,

However, EHEC LPS is identical and it is a pathogen (of humans, not cows). So that would be an infection by your definition.

Where is this EHEC LPS derived from considering K12 is not EHEC?

Prometheus,

So, the immune reaction to E. coli K12 LPS, which will be indistinguishable from the reaction to LPS from E. coli O157:H7, is somehow qualitatively or quantitatively different because E. coli K12 isn’t a “pathogen”? What nonsense!

K12 is NOT EHEC. Big difference.

Either E. coli K12 or E. coli O157:H7 injected into the body would be pathogens. Even the “normal flora” E. coli are “pathogens” if they are in the tissues or bloodstream.

There are pathogenic as well as nonpathogenic microorganisms that can be introduced into the bloodstream or tissues. Don’t bark up the wrong tree. So which “squirrel” did you see?

CG,

You’re avoiding the question.

No I’m not. I’m trying to show you where the “squirrel” is so you can stop barking up the wrong tree.

However, O157:H7 LPS is identical, yet if he did the same thing with LPS derived from this strain instead, it would be an infection by your definition.

They are not the same. They are distinguished from one another. The K12 LPS is not diarrheagenic unlike the pathogenic O157:H7 LPS.

Even though the molecule is identical and it will induce an identical response.

False. Remember PAMPs. Unlike you, they don’t bark up the wrong tree. “It’s the squirrel!!!”

They are not the same. They are distinguished from one another. The K12 LPS is not diarrheagenic unlike the pathogenic O157:H7 LPS.

Except they are. The LPS does not contribute to the diarrhea, the type 3 secretion system which damages epithelial cells does that. During the course of infection, your immune cells should never even see its LPS. EHEC does not invade, which is probably why it never bothered to modify it. There’s no reason to.

CG,

EHEC does not invade, which is probably why it never bothered to modify it. There’s no reason to.

So what’s causing the kidneys to fail (HUS), meningitis, colitis and diarrhea? Can the molecules of nonpathogenic K12 capable of doing that?

Except they are. The LPS does not contribute to the diarrhea, the type 3 secretion system which damages epithelial cells does that. During the course of infection, your immune cells should never even see its LPS.

Yeah right.

Diarrhea caused by Escherichia coli is one of the important causes of infant morbidity and mortality in developing countries. We investigated the effects of bovine lactoferrin (BLf) on lipopolysaccharide (LPS)-induced diarrheogenic activity, gastrointestinal transit (GIT), and intestinal fluid content in mice. LPS accumulated abundant fluid in the small intestine in a dose-dependent manner, induced diarrhea, but decreased the GIT.

CG, are you seriously debating this psychopathic clownshoe?

For fuck’s sake, this is the one that has a definition of intravenous that includes the smoke from the cigarette I now have to smoke to calm down after reading this raging personality disorder on wheels ruin yet another thread.

So 450 preventable deaths of children a year—or ~1000 today with the population increase…Die in a fire, augustine.

You don’t know how many would die today, Firebreather. In the name of fear you certainly can project, though.

How many die from medicine every single year Mr. Dragon?

So what’s causing the kidneys to fail (HUS), meningitis, colitis and diarrhea? Can the molecules of nonpathogenic K12 capable of doing that?

HUS? Shiga toxin, encoded in a lysogenic phage.
Meningitis? That’s E. coli K1, not EHEC.
Colitis and diarrhea? AE lesions mediated by T3SS, which is encoded on a pathogenicity island.

As for the LPS, the same can be done with K12 LPS. LPS is endotoxin. Dumping large amounts of it in any animal will cause issues.

The part of LPS detected by TLR4 is Lipid A. Some organisms modify their lipid A in order to not trigger the immune system. K12 and O157:H7 do not do this.

You clearly have no clue how this organism works and are just googling and throwing links out.

CG,

You’re avoiding the question.

No I’m not. I’m trying to show you where the “squirrel” is so you can stop barking up the wrong tree.

However, O157:H7 LPS is identical, yet if he did the same thing with LPS derived from this strain instead, it would be an infection by your definition.

They are not the same. They are distinguished from one another. The K12 LPS is not diarrheagenic unlike the pathogenic O157:H7 LPS.

Even though the molecule is identical and it will induce an identical response.

False. Remember PAMPs. Unlike you, they don’t bark up the wrong tree. “It’s the squirrel!!!”

3-4 million measles cases per year in the U.S. pre vaccine 450 deaths per year. ~150 million census.

99.99% case survival

99.9997% population survival

Woe is me. Dem measles is a comin’

Also take into account that nutrition plays a major factor in measles survival and you’ll see that risk is not homogenous like science based cultist would lead to believe.

While I disagree with some of Augustine’s conclusions, I think he raises a useful point.
Based on CDC data, between 1 and 2 children who are sick with measles die, a number of others have various complications which can include seizures, permanent deafness, pneumonia, and so on. Presumably no one disagrees with this.
The vaccine clearly significantly reduces the risk of catching the disease. While it introduces some known risks, those are demonstrably less than those of catching the actual disease.
These are reasonable matters of science.
However, the decision of whether to encourage immunization is not strictly one of science. It really comes down to societal values. Is it worthwhile to society to save, say, the 1-2 children out of a thousand that might have died? Or should the threshold be higher – should we reserve this sort of thing for something that kills, say, 1 child out of 100? Or one out of 10?

@Mephistopheles O’Brien

How do you get 1 or 2 deaths per thousand from these numbers:

3-4 million measles cases per year in the U.S. pre vaccine 450 deaths per year

CG,

If I injected K12 LPS into you, you would die still of septic shock.

Did your friend die? Are you sure it’s septic shock not medical murder?

@Sid Offitt
So one child who died of an ear infection was neglected and lived in squalor. This proves what exactly?

I happen to think that reducing suffering and death is a good thing. You apparently either don’t, or think that “only” a few hundred people a year dying or being permanently disabled, by a vaccine-preventable disease would be acceptable in the USA in the 21st century. That is where things are heading, judging by trends in Europe. That disgusts me.

By the way, you wrote, “measles doesn’t even cause death on it’s own, rarely causes death and hardly ever causes death in the previously healthy”. That’s not true. The measles virus directly causes pneumonia, encephalitis and death. A study of measles deaths between 1964 and 1971 found that “nearly 17% of the persons who died had some underlying disease at the time of death”. That means that more than 80% of those who died of measles did not have an underlying disease.

CG,

No, he stabbed himself with the needle. If he actually pushed down the plunger and injected himself he would probably have died. Just the small amount that diffused out the needle was enough to cause severe local inflammation.
LPS strongly activates the innate immune system. Harmless commensal or pathogen it really doesn’t matter, both will activate TLR4.

But you’re not concerned of the so many naive children receiving LPS-containing vaccines?

@Kerboizen

http://www.immunize.org/reports/report085.pdf

Measles, itself, does not kill children. Instead, complications from measles attack the childís already weak immune system.

=============================================

You apparently either don’t, or think that “only” a few hundred people a year dying or being permanently disabled, by a vaccine-preventable disease would be acceptable in the USA in the 21st century.

It’s not for me to decide what’s acceptable for the entire country. I’m responsible to decide whether the risk of a certain illness warrants the vaccination of my child.

Measles, itself, does not kill children. Instead, complications from measles attack the child’s already weak immune system.

The same reasoning reassures us that HIV is no cause for concern.

@herr doktor bimler:

The same reasoning reassures us that HIV is no cause for concern.

Well, according to Th1Th2, avoiding infection is almost effortless, so I guess all those people who’ve died from AIDS were just to stupid to realize that they should have walked on the nice clean concrete sidewalks.

I thought my question was clear. Again, can the nonpathogenic K12 able to cause the above conditions?

You are deliberately not clear. K12 cannot do those things due to it lacking the genes I mentioned. It’s LPS has nothing to do with it. Once again you are changing the subject.

But you’re not concerned of the so many naive children receiving LPS-containing vaccines?

Because they aren’t. There is no LPS containing vaccine. The only whole cell vaccines or live bacteria vaccines are Gram positive.

However, the use of LPS-like molecules as an adjuvant are being investigated.

Offal, I saw the Comment you posted under the picture of the little girl infected with smallpox on “SBM-Smallpox and pseudomedicine”, “Wow she’s pretty”. You really are the nastiest of trolls.

I could hardly believe this was right, but sure enough, there it was.
Wow, Robert, you really are a useless piece of shit, aren’t you?
It should be noted that the SBM commenters simply ignored him. We should all emulate their restraint.

CG,

You are deliberately not clear. K12 cannot do those things due to it lacking the genes I mentioned. It’s LPS has nothing to do with it. Once again you are changing the subject.

Well, you’re the one who came up with the K12 case scenario. If I had not asked you about the “squirrel”, you could still be barking up the wrong tree.

Because they aren’t. There is no LPS containing vaccine. The only whole cell vaccines or live bacteria vaccines are Gram positive.

That is certainly not true particularly for the infamous acellular Pertussis vaccine.

Pertussis Vaccination: Use of Acellular Pertussis Vaccines Among Infants and Young Children Recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP)

Acellular pertussis vaccines contain inactivated pertussis toxin (PT) and may contain one or more other bacterial components (e.g., filamentous hemagglutinin {FHA}, a 69-kilodalton outer-membrane protein — pertactin {Pn}, and fimbriae {Fim} types 2 and 3). PT is detoxified either by treatment with a chemical (e.g., hydrogen peroxide, formalin and/or glutaraldehyde) or by using molecular genetic techniques. Acellular pertussis vaccines contain substantially less endotoxin than whole-cell pertussis vaccines.

An overview of the status of acellular pertussis vaccines in practice.

Acellular pertussis vaccines have decreased endotoxin content and are less reactogenic than whole cell vaccines.

Pertussis Vaccine Adsorbed
Tripedia

The inactivated acellular pertussis component
contributes not more than 50 endotoxin units to the endotoxin content of 1 mL of DTaP.

Interesting how the true character of these antivax trolls gets revealed as they comment. John Lennon had something to say about this.

@ lilady: Here’s my take on RS- my research informs me that real estate has not been doing exceedingly well these days ( new understatement of the week) so the poor fellow has to figure out *something* to do with his time and needs to lash out at *somebody*: why not us? We make ourselves clear and represent a thought-out, reality-based opinion- I’m sure that makes us worthy of both scorn and contempt! We’re in good company!

Dunning and Kruger use the label “inexpert and unaware of it” for some folks: we should remember that one of the higher level abilities that develop around the time of adolescence ( a/k/a executive fxs, formal operational thought, etc.), along with sarcasm, is the ability to self-evaluate your own capacities and skills. Many people never fully get there. Our woo-meisters often present themselves as “experts” ( altho’ much of this is for PR) and challenge more educated “elitists” way above their own level -heh heh heh-( I guess that this can “rub off” on their followers): it resembles a phenomenon often seen on tennis courts, players self-rate themselves *way* above their own real capabilities and then get absolutely *slaughtered* by a person who really *is* the level they call themselves.

However, RS does present us with a mighty “blast from the past” with his attitudes about race: who would have thunk it – colonialism lives on! OK , I know that these days, you don’t actually have to go through the trouble of acquiring and managing colonies, it can be done purely economically, or as RS so kindly illustrates for us, by attitude alone! (Disclaimer: though lily-white, I totally abhor this attitude- it sucks!). My work here is done.

Unfortunately, that’s the nature of anti-vaccine trolls. They tend to be far more nasty and loathsome than most other varieties of trolls, and as long as I write about vaccines and the anti-vaccine loons that hate them I am likely to continue to have to put up with anti-vaccine trolls.

Denise, that’s the best one EVER. Sid Offit: Colonialist. What a great illustration of the delusional mindset necessary to believe the vaccine myths that permeate these threads.

Sorry, but I reject Atwood’s argumentum ad misericordiam. He was using a disturbing picture as a ham-handed attempt to distract for an argument built on falsehood.

You appear to believe that if you can find a picture of a terrible condition others should accept it as evidence of the correctness of your argument. I don’t.

By the time the vaccine made an impact in America, the dominant form of smallpox – variola minor – was often confused with chickenpox and had a mortality rate of ~1%, yet Atwood tells us his picture is what a case of smallpox would do to us. That’s absurd and deserves to be ridiculed.

Anybody notice that according to Sid, a death rate of 1% is perfectly OK? We know that for little augie, the 1 in a thousand death rate from measles was hunky-dory, now 1 in 100 from smallpox is just fine. Do we have any other trolls who would endorse a death rate of 1 in 10 rather than have anybody’s Precious Bodily Fluids™ contaminated? Come on—step up to the plate! Show us what sort of sociopaths we’re dealing with.

The little girl that Offal commented on, was photographed in Bangladesh in 1973; she had pustules all over her body from Smallpox infection.

If you have ever seen smallpox case pustules or full blow chickenpox, you know the difference. I was trained in complete emergency preparedness during the WMD scare…”weaponized smallpox major”, including lab specimen preparation.. prior to being revaccinated against smallpox as a first responder. Once that vaccination “took” I vaccinated small numbers of Emergency Room personnel in every area hospital in my county.

Information about Smallpox Major and other varieties of smallpox can be found at the CDC website “Emergency Preparedness-Smallpox.

indicates that you consider that child’s condition to be a positive outcome.

I just love visiting the dreamworld ya’ll live in

You can twist all you want to mitigate the damages to your reputation. IMO you are evil personified…not for the differences we have about vaccines…but for your cold, compassionless statements and your poor taste in humor. Truly a vile human being.

Siddy, if you’re not willing to take a chance with vaccinating your kid, you must not let them ride in any cars, right? Every time you’re in a car there’s a substantial risk of crashing. Certainly more than the chances of a severe reaction to a vaccine.

LW, you’re only focusing on outbreaks of “virulent” smallpox. That version of the disease was rare in relation to v. minor. And v. minor had a 1% fatality rate. That rate would have likely declined as living conditions continued to improve. After all measles deaths went from 7,000 in the 20s to 400 in the 60s. And all your research on the confusion between smallpox and chickenpox doesn’t change the fact that what I said was quite true: smallpox and chickenpox were often confused

Sid Troll:

v. minor had a 1% fatality rate

So out of a population of 1 million, you could expect 10 000 deaths. I’d say getting rid of it was still worthwhile.

I’d say giving people a choice to protect themselves with a vaccine is worthwhile; forcing that choice upon them isn’t.

Vaccines vs Car? That’s a classic Gray-style analogy.

Easily debunked.

Passenger cars are designed to transport people safely. End of the story.

Vaccines are created to infect. It is inherent, deliberate and expected.

The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge, maybe the vaccine was administered differently in different places? Everybody in my family, boy or girl, got vaccinated on the outside of the arm.

All right, Lawrence, just for you….

But the history of smallpox in the United States is quite interesting, and I quite enjoyed investigating Offal’s falsehoods.

AoA is trumpetting two events at *Autism One* that I believe may exemplify the state of the movement presently:

1. The Canary Party(see website): Led by a Reiki Master, a group of concerned citizens, alarmed by the startling rise of “neurological and autoimmune illnesses” in both children and adults, believe that many have been “harmed and killed by the medical industry”. Intent on flexxing their political muscle, it seems as though they’ve taken a page from the NaturalNews/ Gary Null playbook. It should be interesting when several of these advocacy groups converge on legislators simultaneously. And bring lawyers.

2. Keynoter Jenny McCarthy premiers her new line of “affordable, non-toxic baby products”.

Both efforts “spread” beyond the narrow confines of A-V. This leads me to believe that the “times, they are a-changing” in a fashion that can be best expressed metaphorically by a little scene I dreamt up:

A blonde woman is spraying a home scent product around her apartment- a really expensive one, either by Jo Malone or Ralph Lauren- she keeps sniffing, and unsatisfied, sprays even more. There is however, a dead body in the next room: it’s been there for a while and guests are due to arrive in an hour. Oh, well.

I’ve heard and read that smallpox vax was stopped in 1972 many times…

Only in the USA. I got my last smallpox vaccine in 1974 at an Army medical clinic in what was then the Panama Canal Zone.

Not for the military (and families) who were overseas. I Joined the AF in 76, and was revaccinated as part of normal in-processing (nine shots in six weeks).

@ DrDuran: The 1972 cutoff date for smallpox vaccine being given in the United States, is for “Routine Vaccination” (school entry included). As other posters have stated above, travel outside of the USA, required smallpox vaccine for a few years after the “routine” smallpox vaccination was discontinued in 1972. Others have stated that they received the vaccine when they served in the armed forces and Chris received it while residing in the Panama Canal Zone.

A few days ago on one of the Science Based Medicine blogs, a mother posted that she adopted an infant from a foreign country about 8-10 years ago. She sees a telltale small mark on the child’s upper arm that appears to indicate that the child received smallpox vaccine sometime after 2000.

One absolutely brilliant poster recalls working in foreign countries and seeing those same telltale marks…from receiving the BCG vaccine. Countries where tuberculosis is very prevalent still give BCG vaccine in early infancy and it leaves the same/similar mark on the arm as smallpox vaccine does. Could this be the case with you?

Usually I would refer you to the CDC Pink Book-Smallpox, but I have trouble loading the chapter…probably because the book is in revision, right now. These are the times when I miss my job in public health, where I had hard copies of the Pink Book and the AAP Red Book on my desk for ready reference.

I have located the last VIS (Vaccine Information Sheet) for Smallpox vaccine published 11-15-03. Just type in:

VIS-Smallpox

Removal of the vaccine requirement for “Routine” immunizations is contained in section #1 “What is Smallpox”

Possibly your pediatrician was still recommending the smallpox vaccination a couple of years after it was judged no longer routinely required?  If pediatricians can fiercely argue against recommended vaccines (Dr. Gordon), perhaps they can also recommend an extra vaccine. Though the smallpox vaccine was nasty enough that I would have thought doctors would stop giving it the moment they heard it was safe to do so, still that’s the only explanation I can come up with. 

Not that anyone need care about the intent of lurkers such as myself, but I intend from now on to boycott threads in which the Three Muskatrolls are fed. There is no viable conversation to be had with them, no possibility of finding common ground, and the battlefield has been tramped over so many times it looks like a parking lot. There doesn’t even seem to be anything left of value to the casual passerby. All you’re doing is making them fat.

You must do as you please, but I find having to don hip waders to get through the BS has gotten old. You have worn out this set of trolls – it is time to cultivate new ones.

People just have to realize that parents are desperate for answers. If someone offers them hope, they’ll believe almost anything that gives them that hope to protect their kids, regardless of the evidence for or against.

Hi there. I don’t suppose you saw our exhibit at the recent Autism One conference did you? We have a one of a kind all natural therapy, based on real science, by a real scientist. Perhaps you could share your thought on our approach?

http://www.n-met.com for more information. and please do share your thoughts.

@306:

All you had to do was say “Had a booth at Autism One”, and that would’ve said it all.

“304

Griffo, palliative treatment for autism: An answer is Cannabinoids and Yoga.
We are waiting for results of studies to come out re: Cannabinoids. + ASD.
As for the synergy between Yoga and Cannabis, you’ll have to take our word for it, for now. What harm can yoga do?
Herbs & woo-based exercise appeal to those who don’t like the look of the date on narcoleptics and TD etc 😉

Posted by: Micheat | June 8, 2011 5:22 AM”

QFT.

This is probably that ‘bis-addled fuckpig. Wanna get rid?