A vaccination tool every parent could use

That’s actually not a bad metaphor.

It is a very bad metaphor.

I am seeing that 98% statistic quoted a lot. Generally followed by complete denial of the problem of the unvaxxed pockets.

Despite having been vaxxed as a child (because my parents remembered polio, measles, et al), I still got mumps and then German measles. So I was worried that I hadn’t become immune. For my upcoming Euro trip I had to pay $60 for a specialist visit to the travel clinic, and get MMR again. (I have been unable to detect any subsequent spectrum characteristics. Well, beyond what I already had.)

These people cost me time and money. And I have a nephew with leukemia that can’t afford to have anyone in the family bring this around.

The willfully ignorant enrage me.

Great information – thankfully it looks like the parents in my neighborhood have some sense.

I loved that tool – I live in the area and spent a good hour perusing the pockets. The schools my kids go to have good rates, but even the absolute numbers are scary. There are 10 exempted kids in a school of 470. The rate sounds fine, but I find it mind boggling to even think about the fact that there are 10 among kids and families that I probably know who don’t get vaccinated. I also pinged one of the worse schools out in the far west suburbs (around Naperville). This was a place with something like 50% non-compliance and a $10,000 yearly tuition to boot.

@1 anarchic teapot “relying on herd immunity when you’re personally undermining it and encouraging others to do so requires a special kind of stupid.”

Actually I think it’s not stupid, it’s “a special kind of ethics” especially after reading the ranting they do on the net. I used to think they were misinformed and scared. Now I think they are no better than drunk drivers, actually they’re worse. At least the driver is drunk.

I couldn’t believe that map the other day when I read it. I thought this only happened in California and Utah, and a few of those weird charter schools where kids set their own curriculum. I was shocked to see it going on here.

Here are some non profits that focus on health for children, part of which is vaccination. Has anyone heard of these people? I can’t find any information on them:
http://www.ilmaternal.org/caic/aboutcaic.html
or them:
http://www.infantwelfaresociety.org/clinicservices.html

Here’s the website for school immunization rates in California

http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/Pages/ImmunizationRatesatCaliforniaSchools.aspx

Unfortunately the data are in a PDF, not a searchable form.

Actually I think it’s not stupid, it’s “a special kind of ethics” especially after reading the ranting they do on the net. I used to think they were misinformed and scared. Now I think they are no better than drunk drivers, actually they’re worse. At least the driver is drunk.

I’m reminded of a line from, I think, The Great Gatsby, where one of the characters is lightly scolded for driving recklessly. Her response: “It takes two to have an accident.”

The problem with that logic: There is always, always an overabundance of other people thinking the same thing.

That “takes two to have an accident” doesn’t even work for accidents: one careless, drunk, or sleepy driver can drive straight into a tree. (Even a careful, sober, awake driver can have their tires fail, or a tree branch hit their car: but being careful, sober, and awake when you drive helps a lot.)

The really special “ethics” isn’t even the ones who are undermining herd immunity, which is just destructive: someone who actually thought that way would be encouraging everyone else to get immunized and immunize their kids, quietly claim a religious exemption for themselves, and not talk much about it, because if they talk about it people might follow their lead.

NJ has also seen a drop in vaccination rates ( Star Ledger, 8/22/10) making it 42nd in the nation. Like Chicago, NE NJ includes pockets of affluence, poverty, and immigration- often in the same town ( Cliffside Park- probably 15,000 people per square mile; while many workers from Central America reside here, so does a US Senator- and other affluent folk).

We also have anti-vaccine activists- LKH, Assembly Member Charlotte Vandervalk- and charter schools springing up like mushrooms. If you look at the CA data Liz has so graciously provided- you’ll catch a glimpse of one aspect of the charter school phenomenon- in Sebastopol in Sonoma- anti-vaxxers flock to these innovative, barely administered schools to escape the soul-killing machine of mass state-education. And they’re cheaper than Steiner. NJ’s governor is big on charter schools.

Which makes me despair: during the H1N1 crisis- which hit students hard ( including my relative, living at her U.: she was ill for weeks)- we experienced school closings in the metro area, especially NYC. I can imagine measles spreading in one of these towns or densely populated sections of the city. I hope that when vaccination rates finally turn around, the increase will not have been triggered by that proverbial “best teacher”- dire experience- for fools keep no other.

@ Calli Arcale: VIS(s) are now available in the Hmong language. My personal belief about the VIS(s) is that they might be more effective if women in the latter stages of pregnancy were provided a folder with all the VIS(s) beforehand. Even if they cannot read them, encourage them to sit down with a member of their closely-knit community who can interpret them for the parents. It might also help with English-speaking expectant parents as well…as a counterbalance to the garbage spread on the internet.

The VFC (Vaccines for Children) Program is operational in all areas of the United States. It provides (tax-dollar- paid-for) “free” vaccines to all children on Medicaid, children whose parents have no medical insurance or who have medical plans that don’t cover childhood immunizations. Neighborhood public health clinics and some private practitioners are VFC “providers” and the Program covers children from birth through their eighteenth year.

There should be a lot of linkage between local health departments and local immigrant groups (churches, social clubs, etc.) It really “works” to get reliable “leaders” on board, so that immigrants have access to vaccines and primary health care.

@Liz–I used that data to do a spreadsheet for the Bay Area counties (am writing about it) I can send it to you, if you like. The rates of PBEs in private and charter schools are absolutely shameful

Whenever Trine writes an article, Anne Daschel writes comments discouraging people from using the vaccine court to get compensation for vaccine injuries – I wonder how much the pharma companies pay her for that service…

@ Fellow: and Anne has her very own, brand new blog called AnneDachel ( see AoA)
Lord, so much nonsense , so little time! What’s a girl to do!

Orac, I thought you were the “vaccination tool.”

Orac

“but I want everyone else to be vaccinated”

Which basically describes anti-vaccine groups like the NVIC and Generation Rescue perfectly.

So they’re “anti-vaccine” but they want everyone to get vaccinated. Makes sense.

For those unclear on the concept of herd immunity, there’s a similar example concerning Chicago in the 1800’s, before they had a building code. Most landowners, in an attempt to maximize area of their buildings, while constructing them out of wood, minimizing cost. This was beneficial to the individual, but added a small risk to the community, and therefore a small risk to oneself. However, the total risk from everyone doing so added up for everyone, and in 1871, the city got a swift and terrible lesson in the tragedy of the commons: http://library.thinkquest.org/CR0215480/fire.htm. Afterwards, a building code was established to prevent such things, coming at cost to each individual, as they had to build using more expensive fireproof materials, but reducing the risks to the community as a whole.

Gray Falcon:

I plan on borrowing that graceful analogy in the future whenever I’m engaged in a herd immunity discussion. In my experience one of the most difficult topics to reasonably discuss with anti-vaxers (as regularly demostrated by Sid) is what herd immunity is, and distinguishing it from the typical anti-government/authority emotions that are manipulated by anti-vax orginizations.

Others may disagree, but in my conversations it seems that the fear-mongering of the anti-vax organizations incubates well in the government-conspiracy-theory types of the far left, and the orwellian paranoids on the far right. That’s why I love analogies like this, since I think we can say that fear of death by burning is an ideal that crosses political lines.

Question from a Brit here – does the US not have a service like Language Line?
It’s basically a teleconferencing service available to medical services (hospitals, GP practices etc), the police, and social services. The patient/client indicates their language on a wallchart. It’s written in all of the various languages with the english name of the language alongside each one. The doctor/nurse/social worker then speed dials the LL service, tells the operator which language they require, and is then connected to the first available speaker of that language. The translators usually work from home.

It’s a brilliant service because it eliminates the need to have on-site translators, especially in areas where even a small hospital may serve up to 12 different native populations. It’s especially valuable in emergency situations, because nobody has to locate a translator who may be busy with somebody else in another part of the hospital.

I’ve dealt with some truly horrific cases, where young refugees who spoke certain Afghani dialects, or Xhosa, or whatever, were able to relate what had happened to them in order to receive care. Because they were dealing with other native speakers (rather than someone who’d learned it as a second language) they were at ease, and felt free to talk. The details that were given were precise enough that the refugees were able to receive the appropriate treatment. The alternative, of mimes or drawings, would not have been as helpful. It’s especially handy in cases where the patient/client does not have sufficient literacy, in their native language, to be able to read and evaluate written material.

One has to suspect that special education programs have big clusters of unvaccinated or undervaccinated kids.

Imagine being required to place your child in a special day class, where you don’t know the vaccination status of the kids around yours.

Imagine that your child, in addition to autism has epilepsy. Imagine what it’s like to have your kid in the ER multiple times with status epilepticus, a constant state of seizure. Imagine that your child has seizures when sick.

To be blunt–if you haven’t gone through it, you can’t really imagine it. But you get some of the picture from the fact that as a parent, you stay up all night wondering if your kid will suffer brain injury or death while in status.

Groups like Generation Rescue and NVIC sew this fear. Hell, JB asked his readers to “take a bow” for reducing vaccination rates.

But they take ZERO responsibility for the harm they cause.

>That’s actually not a bad metaphor.

Speaking of metaphors, here’s one I’ve been meaning to post here (I did pass it along to Todd W. a while back):

During the London Blitz, “Blackouts” were instituted. Streetlights were turned off, windows were blocked, etc., all so that the German bombers would have less light to use to target the citizens of London. Note that if you didn’t follow the blackout rules in your own house, you saved yourself trouble and made yourself safer from the dangers of darkness-caused injury, but you increased the chance that your neighborhood would be hit (the bombers weren’t all that accurate) – and fires started by bombs would spread even to houses that had observed the blackout rules. Non-cooperators weren’t making a decision that only affected themselves – they were affecting everyone who lived near them.

In case it’s not clear, “blackout” regulations are analogous to vaccines, German bombs are analogous to infections, and fires are analogous to epidemics. As before, non-cooperators are risking not just their own children, but the children of their neighbors.

Then, the schools would have an incentive to bring up immunization rates.

Unfortunately, the Waldorf schools (one being the worst example in the Tribune article) are ideologically committed to a policy of indifference.

There are other links, if you would like: http://www.lib.niu.edu/1997/iht419734.html

Sid, are you high? How can you possibly be unaware that people can be injured by not being able to see where they’re going! And Jen, you don’t have evidence that vaccines caused problems, you have suspicions. Learn the difference.

Sid – I would have thought it was too obvious to require explanation, but since it doesn’t seem to be, I’ll use smaller words: If it’s too dark to see obstacles, a person call fall. Falling can cause injuries. Those injuries would have been caused by the darkness. Simple enough?

elburto — yes, there are Language Line type services available in the US as well. However, hospitals don’t always use them and NOT because of cost-cutting. It’s because it isn’t just a question of translating the words. The *concepts* need to be translated as well, and more and more hospitals and clinics are starting to understand that they need translators who have some medical training.

Now, I live in a large metropolitan area with several strong immigrant communities and relatively well-organized medical care. A rural hospital would not have this sort of luxury.

@ triskelethecat: “We got a visit from Silly Sid. Don’t we all feel special? Not especially, unless I’m up for kicking around his posting…Hmm…Yes I am up for it.

@ Offal: Regarding your dumb article “No Vacation against vaccination” that you posted today on your rarely visited blog…it is replete with errors.

Offal takes on the California Department of Health and the California State Assembly that enacted new regulations requiring booster Tdap immunization for students entering grades 7-12 during the 2011-12 school year.

Quoting some “gems” directly from Offal’s blog:

“Additionally, you have many in the 7th through 12th grades who have contracted pertussis and are therefore immune.”

“Natural immunity has been shown to last at least 30 years”

(Offal as usual, provides no citations for these factoids)

Come back Offal, when you provide citations as none of us are inclined to provide you with same. And, please no smart ass comments about the youngster who is physically impaired for life, due to pertussis disease.

@lilady

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2763266/?tool=pubmed

Our results support a period of natural immunity that is, on average, long-lasting (at least 30 years) but inherently variable.

And you’re saying no previously-vaccinated children in the 7-12 grades ever contracted pertussis? This report would dispute that

http://www.watchdoginstitute.org/2010/12/13/whooping-cough-epidemic-california/
Keys findings included:
For pertussis cases in which vaccination histories are known, between 44 and 83 percent were of people who had been immunized, according to data from nine California counties with high infection rates. In San Diego County, more than two thirds of the people in this group were up to date on their immunizations.

@lilady

Links got caught in the spam filter. You’ll just have to google for them

“Our results support a period of natural immunity that is, on average, long-lasting (at least 30 years) but inherently variable.”

And you’re saying no previously-vaccinated children in the 7-12 grades ever contracted pertussis? This report would dispute that

watchdoginstitute.org

Keys findings included:
For pertussis cases in which vaccination histories are known, between 44 and 83 percent were of people who had been immunized, according to data from nine California counties with high infection rates. In San Diego County, more than two thirds

Post caught in spam filter as well, but I basically show that Sid is lying about the numbers. What a surprise.

Do you know what the higher infection rate amongst those that are immunized (drops as low as 81%)? A possible mutation that will require another vaccination for students in a year or so. Will you be lining up to get an update? I will be, along with my family and friends.

@ Stupid:

The non-morons among us can notice that with vaccination rates above 44-83%, that shows quite nicely that the vaccine WORKS. Since the vaccinated were less likely to get it than the unvaccinated.

The non-liars among us will also note that lilady didn’t say or imply anything even vaguely related to what you decided to make up and put in her mouth.

Sorry, I misread Sid’s commentary, it was on the number of people infected, not the total population. Which means he’s failed Probability 101 again. Then again, he’ll probably always be known as the guy who didn’t know that darkness could be dangerous.

Which isn’t quite as moronic as being the guy who thinks that all toddlers instinctively know that it’s better to walk on the sidewalk than in the grass.

Keys findings included:
For pertussis cases in which vaccination histories are known, between 44 and 83 percent were of people who had been immunized, according to data from nine California counties with high infection rates. In San Diego County, more than two thirds

And why would that be a key finding? Or, more precisely, why would it be a key finding for the side you want it to be? Because immunization rates are so high in the general population, of course they’re also going to be high in the sub-population of those who contract pertussis, despite the protective effect of immunizations. If someone checked the handedness of those who contracted pertussis, I’m sure they’d find that right-handed people outnumbered left-handed people by a large margin, but that would hardly be a significant finding, let alone a “key” finding.

This has been discussed here many, many times before. Are you saying that you did not understand it any of those times it was discussed before? Or did you understand it but think it best to phrase things as if you didn’t understand them?

Mr. Offit, he doesn’t have to contradict your claim, you have to prove yours. It’s called burden of proof.

Scott, the third cluster could pretty easily be deduced by looking up the VAERS data and also knowing that only 10% of all vaccine reactions even make it to that. grey Falcon: then I guess our family doc had suspicions too, since he advised all of us not to get flu shots.
Again, I think Both Orac and Trine are being willfully ignorant and inflammatory.

Antaeus, nothing your saying contradicts my position that many 7th to 12 graders have had pertussis and are therefore immune.

That’s very true. It’s also true that nothing I’m saying contradicts your position on the designated-hitter rule in baseball. And, of course, nothing I’m saying contradicts your position on who truly deserved to win last season’s American Idol.

But, if we could actually stick to the subject — you know, like honest people do — you were the one who brought up the fact that a majority of those who have had pertussis were immunized against it, calling it a “key finding,” and if you try to pretend that you were not trying to imply that the high percentage of immunized people among those who contracted pertussis reflected poorly on the protective effect of the immunization, I’m just going to have to call you a liar and a poor one at that.

@Sid Offal:

And I’ll take a real study (and decades of medical opinion that pertussis immunity is close to lifelong)

Do you have a citation for that, or did you just pull it out of your ignorant ass? Todd W. above gave the pubmed link to a study showing pertussis immunity is between 4-20 years. The CDC recommends a 10 year booster for adults, especially those that are around children and infants. I included a DOI to a published article that discusses the factors about the resurgence, which includes a section that discusses the temporary immunity of vaccinations and active viral infection.

How many citations does a liar like yourself need as proof that your insinuation of a “lifelong immunity” is absolutely wrong?

Wendelboe, A. M., Van, R. A., Salmaso, S., & Englund, J. A. (January 01, 2005). Duration of immunity against pertussis after natural infection or vaccination. The Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal, 24, 5, 58-61.

Is there some sort of formatting issue that upsets your tiny little mind? What format do you want citations so you’ll actually pay attention? PMID’s? DOI’s? Full APA 6th edition farking bio?

Or are you just as dumb as everyone says?

@jen: In case you haven’t noticed, most of us have had “the responsibility for a precious bundle.” Most of us are parents who have done the reasonable and responsible thing and had our children vaccinated. And we support those who cannot be vaccinated due to health issues (allergies, immuno-suppression, adverse effects to previous vaccines) by making sure we DO maintain our vaccination status to protect them.

So, we are not parasites on others. (or is that insulting parasites?)

Offal: I’m not your “sweetie” and I do know how to Google. I also know how to do research…as do most of the posters here who are educated in the sciences and work in the health care field.

Webinar Chatter? The site I provided to you is a seminar for clinicians (you do know what “clinicians” mean, don’t you?), conducted by the State of California Department of Public Health (You do know what public health is, don’t you?)

So tell us where you acquired your expertise…self styled real estate investor, doesn’t count. Also we are still awaiting your PubMed citations…preferably more recent than 2005 and preferably studies conducted in the United States…not Europe or Mexico or South America.

Also anti-vax sites or muckraking sites written by journalism students don’t count, either.

Offal, you’ve been busted…again.

Clusters of unvaccinated students with religious exemptions are more common in private schools, the Tribune found, and such exemptions are rising.

Wait, wait, religious exemptions at private schools? Do private schools voluntarily accept religious exemptions, or is there a law forcing them to do so?

Do private schools voluntarily accept religious exemptions, or is there a law forcing them to do so?

Depends on the state.

So in states where it’s a legal requirement, does the requirement derive from anti-discrimination laws, or something else?

IANAL, and I haven’t given it much thought lately, but I think there is an issue of accepting federal funds if an exemption exists in the first place. Some states merely make it a statutory requirement from the get-go.

@ Matthew Cline: (Short Answer to complying with State’s education law and regulations)

The Federal government “returns” public dollars to each state’s education department, state’s in turn add money to the Federal money and adds money to “return” to each individual school district in that state. Any child who attends private (or parochial) schools and resides in the individual school district has certain services (special education services, textbooks, school nursing staff, psychologists and social workers and school busing) provided by property tax revenues given to each school that the “local” children attend. It is a major amount of money that offsets private tuition costs for the parents.

I suppose a small number of private/parochial schools will refuse these monies to avoid complying with the State’s laws and regulations regarding immunization exemptions…with a corresponding huge hike for tuition costs.

Jen: “I’m sorry but chicken pox, for the vast majority of kids, isn’t deadly!”

Sorry you’re so focused on the death rate from chicken pox (100 or so die annually in the U.S., no biggie, right?) that the 14,000 hospitalized every year due to chickenpox never reach your limited awareness. High risk groups include the following (according to mayoclinic.com):

“Newborns and infants whose mothers never had chickenpox or the vaccine
Pregnant women
People whose immune systems are impaired by medication, such as chemotherapy, or another disease
People who are taking steroid medications for another disease or condition, such as children with asthma
People with the skin condition eczema

A common complication of chickenpox is a bacterial infection of the skin. Chickenpox may also lead to pneumonia or, rarely, an inflammation of the brain (encephalitis), both of which can be very serious…Shingles can lead to its own complication — a condition in which the pain of shingles persists long after the blisters disappear. This complication, called postherpetic neuralgia, can be severe…Other complications of chickenpox affect pregnant women. Chickenpox early in pregnancy can result in a variety of problems in a newborn, including low birth weight and birth defects, such as limb abnormalities. A greater threat to a baby occurs when the mother develops chickenpox in the week before birth. Then it can cause a serious, life-threatening infection in a newborn.”

But as our resident antivaxers would tell us, screw all those people, you can’t make us get shots!

lilady, now you’re just making stuff up.

Jen: “I’m sorry but chicken pox, for the vast majority of kids, isn’t deadly!”

Sorry you’re so focused on the death rate from chicken pox (100 or so die annually in the U.S., no biggie, right?) that the 14,000 hospitalized every year due to chickenpox never reach your limited awareness. High risk groups include the following (according to mayoclinic.com):

“Newborns and infants whose mothers never had chickenpox or the vaccine
Pregnant women
People whose immune systems are impaired by medication, such as chemotherapy, or another disease
People who are taking steroid medications for another disease or condition, such as children with asthma
People with the skin condition eczema

A common complication of chickenpox is a bacterial infection of the skin. Chickenpox may also lead to pneumonia or, rarely, an inflammation of the brain (encephalitis), both of which can be very serious…Shingles can lead to its own complication — a condition in which the pain of shingles persists long after the blisters disappear. This complication, called postherpetic neuralgia, can be severe…Other complications of chickenpox affect pregnant women. Chickenpox early in pregnancy can result in a variety of problems in a newborn, including low birth weight and birth defects, such as limb abnormalities. A greater threat to a baby occurs when the mother develops chickenpox in the week before birth. Then it can cause a serious, life-threatening infection in a newborn.”

But as our resident antivaxers would tell us, screw all those people, you can’t make us get shots!

Post 83, Narad. While I’m here can anyone explain the logic behind Orac believing the NVIC is an anti-vaccination organization that wants everyone vaccinated.

“Individuals, if they look at the world selfishly, will say: ‘I don’t want a needle to be stuck into my kid, but I want everyone else to be vaccinated,'” said Dr. Paul E.M. Fine, a community immunity expert and professor of communicable disease epidemiology at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. “There is a brutal, ugly logic there.”

Which basically describes anti-vaccine groups like the NVIC and Generation Rescue perfectly

No, it’s more like “Vaccines carry a small risk, and I’m not taking it, but since most people are I can crow about my decision like it’s reasonable.”

It’s actually that they fail to realize that the reason the disease carries such a low risk currently is because of the high rates of vaccination. They fail to understand that if the vaccination rate drops, the odds of an outbreak increases.

Anti-vaccine advocates frequently sneer at what one indecently prolific woo-meister calls the “cult of the expert”:

Specific people are considered “experts” because they follow the “party line” in order to be recognised as members of the “elite”. These creatures are neither curious nor innovative. They are merely cogs in the wheel of the larger machine: soul-lessly obediant to their paymasters.

Whenever a truly creative genius appears on the scene: the brave maverick- whose brilliantly revolutionary discoveries threaten the staus quo- will be subjected to the most vile public ridicule and smear campaign. Black ops will be initiated, hirelings will be employed, and the media will be utilised mercilessly in his undoing- martyrdom, actually. Thus, being despised is a sign of greatness, not a stigma.

What lies behind this attitude- often seen in the trolling set- as well? Try as I might, jealousy, envy, and downright hatred of the educated, appear to be the first words that pop into my head.

Often the “experts” praised by pseudo-science haven’t standard credentials; they may address fields peripheral to their own or their background may be spurious at best, fictional at worst. Derision is flung furiously at those with more respectable CV’s.

If the vitriol is fuelled by such powerful emotions, can we ever get through to them? I don’t know. While I’ve been described as having a “poison pen”, it’s nothing compared to what I’ve heard directed at me or those I agree with.

Denise, then what do you call “experts”/phd guys from all kinds of universities who find ingredients like thimerosal and aluminum to be neurotoxic? Do you call them “pseudo-scientists? Just because they actually don’t come to the same conclusions as yourself?

@calli – the LL operators who are used for medical situations do undergo training, and are given copious glossaries and manuals to read through and digest. They also have to be educated to a certain level, they’re not just picking random language speakers! They have to be extremely proficient in English, people who grew up bilingual are preferred. The hospitals don’t pay individually for the service, the NHS is invoiced, and has a budget set aside for it. Thanks for the info about your services though.

@Jen- your grandmother’s GB is anecdotal. Nobody did a study on her, we don’t have her medical record here.

When I last got a vaccine, purple monkeys flew out of my arse, cats fell from the sky, and my hair caught fire. Never doing that again, hoo boy.

Of course the plural of ‘anecdote’ is not ‘data’, and correlation does not imply causation, so the chimpus rectus outbreak may have just been a coincidence, see how that works?

@ Jen: There are MD’s who assert that schizophrenia is attributable to a niacin deficiency while others agree with the “cult of the experts” ( i.e. medical consensus, c. 2011). Some PhD’S claim HIV doesn’t exist or is harmless, others are more drearily prosaic in their beliefs.

Thimerasol and Alum: And which PhD’s and which uni’s? Names? Again, re neurotoxicity, “dose makes the poison”- it’s all about amounts.

Why are we even bothering with these factoid spewing know-nothing trolls? They are totally unable to provide any citations for any of the factoids…I suspect they are ripping off the factoids from anti-vax sites…truly parrot tools.

Jen says, “I’m not even sure he can anything except an MMRV and if that’s the case we’ll bail.”

Um Jen, there’s a bit of a disconnect here. You hopelessly try to impress us with your research skills and talk about the dangers of thimerisol and aluminum and are still clueless about the antigens/components contained in the Recommended Childhood Vaccines.

The measles,mumps,rubella,varicella vaccine is not MMRV but rather the MMR-V vaccine. Why don’t you do some very simple research by perusing the MMR VIS…yes it is still available…so you don’t have to “bail”. I mean REALLY!!!

Still no citations from Offal?

Denise, there actually are quite a few researchers who ( God knows, against all odds and sponsorship) have found problems with certain ingredients in vaccines, and no, I am not going to name them all. Calli, I do appreciate what you are saying but I still think it is very dodgy of them to divide clusters into” poor” people and people with” religious exemptions” when, of course, statistically, there are a number of people who have had vaccine damage/ reaction experience and that’s what has led them to perhaps avoid certain or all vaccines. Wow, lilady I didn’t write MMR-V -sue me, such a big diff! I have heard that in our area it is not available as just MMR anymore. I will call tomorrow to check, though.

Jen, 99.9% of so-called “vaccine injury” is simply somebody developing a very rare condition subsequent to being vaccinated. In our universe, that’s just how time works. Was it John Wheeler or Richard Feynman who said “Time is just one damn thing after another”?

Since up until recently, almost everybody was vaccinated, almost everybody who developed any rare condition could say that their problem followed vaccination, and thousands of them have been paid off to shut them up. That does not mean that the vaccinations had any causative relationship with the rare medical condition, it’s just that time is one-dimensional—things happen sequentially.

Jen,
there’s actually a fourth group of people, who you just wish were included in this third group of yours you imagine is so large.

These would be parents whose children had real, serious reactions to specific vaccines, but are more capable of doing a realistic risk vs benefit analysis than you are. We continue vaccinating, because we understand that the risks of the diseases are still higher than the risks presented by the vaccine.

As for

there actually are quite a few researchers who ( God knows, against all odds and sponsorship) have found problems with certain ingredients in vaccines, and no, I am not going to name them all

OK, you don’t have to name them all. Just name at least one, or we’re going to assume you just made it up.

Andrew: Until this year, I never thought about the permanent effects of shingles. When I was a little kid, the chicken pox vaccine hadn’t been invented yet, so I got my immunity the old fashioned way. Thankfully, my flare-up of shingles didn’t cause any permanent damage, but it had enough short term effects to make me rethink the whole ‘natural immunity’ thing.(The shingles virus paralyzed a couple of facial nerves.)
I’d also like to point out that pertussis immunity is not permanent. The immunity from the vaccine does wear off about 20 years on. I had a friend who was sent home from college because she had whooping cough. I’m not sure about the immunity from the wild-type, but I’d bet it’s about the same or a little less. So in sum: booster shots are a good thing, and natural immunity isn’t always a good thing.

Rev Battleax, it’s my understanding that the shingles vax is quite effective at preventing shingles in people who’ve already had the chicken pox. In Australia it’s recommended for people 60 and over, but it’s approved for use on people 50+. I’m not sure when my doc plans to offer it to me, but “Yes please!” will be my reply.

jen: “Denise, there actually are quite a few researchers who ( God knows, against all odds and sponsorship) have found problems with certain ingredients in vaccines, and no, I am not going to name them all.”

Name them. Or shut the fuck up and piss off out of here. You have nothing to contribute to the discussion and you never had anything to add to it.

“Do you call them “pseudo-scientists? Just because they actually don’t come to the same conclusions as yourself?”

No. They get that accolade because they basically take the piss out of proper science by pretending to be scientific and instead are just doing things like cherry-picking their data or even completely fabricating their results… you know, like Andy Wankfield did.

Grow a bloody IQ, jen. And stay away from here until you’ve grown it.

@Jen: “you wish I made them up. They’re at uni’s in Canada and U.S. Why do you want the names? So you can complain to the Dean about them because you don’t agree with what they’re doing?”

You do know that there are a lot of commenters and readers here who do research and spend a lot of time doing literary reviews, right? By at least getting a name we can look up the papers and determine for ourselves what is being said about adjuvants.

Do you even understand the nature of adjuvants? Where did you go to school, what research have you participated in or where are you getting your information? Most likely you’re parroting information from someone like Barbara Loe Fisher or some other anti-vax site.

Evidence of increased clinical protection of an MF59-adjuvant influenza vaccine compared to a non-adjuvant vaccine among elderly residents of long-term care facilities in Italy. DOI: 10.1017/S0950268805003936

So I can show that adjuvant based vaccines have a higher efficacy rate than non-adjuvant based vaccines.

But you want to accuse the adjuvants of causing problems. OK, I’ll bite. Where is your citation that indicates that aluminum salts as an adjuvant are given in a large enough dose that they can cause problems? If you can’t cite something, I have to assume you’re lying.

And I really hate liars.

Jen,

“made them up” – you wish I made them up. They’re at uni’s in Canada and U.S. Why do you want the names? So you can complain

We disagree strongly about many things but I find myself seriously offended by your statement above.

I want the names so I can look up their research for myself since you have already demonstrated over and over again that you only repeat what’s written by AoA rather than reading papers for yourself! I’m didn’t both asking for actual links because I already know you think you don’t have to post those.

Jen:

I think I understand where the disconnect is about the clusters now.

Calli, I do appreciate what you are saying but I still think it is very dodgy of them to divide clusters into” poor” people and people with” religious exemptions” when, of course, statistically, there are a number of people who have had vaccine damage/ reaction experience and that’s what has led them to perhaps avoid certain or all vaccines.

There are, of course, many reasons why people might not be completely* vaccinated. Religious beliefs, poverty, ignorance of what care is available, concern about side effects in the absence of a specific medical exemption, and medical exemptions (allergies, history of adverse reactions, etc).

Poverty and the ignorance of certain groups (particularly immigrants)** will tend to cluster, because poor people and immigrants tend to cluster, for much the same reasons — they both need cheap housing. So we can expect vaccine noncompliance to cluster since these people cluster. This problem *should* be fixable — it’s simply a matter of making free vaccines more widely available, and educating them so they *know* they’re available. Of course, it’s just a symptom of the general problem this group has, and that’s that they do not have good access to health care. That’s a bigger problem than vaccination; we can protect them from measles only to have them die of untreated diabetes or uncontrolled thyroid problems or whatever. Unfortunately, I don’t think this problem will be solved anytime soon, given the current political animosity towards fixing our health care system.

Religious beliefs and philosophical opinions will also tend to cluster, though not as much based on real estate prices. Instead, they tend to cluster based on proximity to the places of worship which promote these beliefs, or to whatever community is supporting the philosophy. More on that later, since this is the most interesting group.

Medical exemptions, however, do not tend to cluster. Things like allergies to various ingredients are pretty widely distributed through the human population, so the incidence of these exemptions do not cluster. Thus, there isn’t much reason to be concerned about people in this group. I mean, you should be concerned about them; they’re people, like anyone else. But they’re all spread out, and are not likely to affect herd immunity as long as there aren’t too many of them. Say 5% of the population can’t take a vaccine incubated in eggs. No problem; if the other 95% are vaccinated, odds are they’re hardly ever going to bump into any of the other 5% unvaccinated. This group is important, but unlikely to trigger any clustering of unvaccinated people, which means they aren’t important to the question being asked, which is how much danger are we in from declining herd immunity.

Now, back to the “religious exemption” group. I’d prefer a different term — “conscientious objector” — because this group should include more than just people who think God won’t believe they’re faithful if they use a vaccine, or who object on religious grounds to some of the ingredients (I’m thinking particularly of the human albumin found in things like MMR, which is incubated in a fetal cell line obtained from an abortion that occurred nearly fifty years ago). This should also include those who disagree with what the experts say about the safety of vaccines, those who believe vaccines may be something else in disguise, and those who believe vaccines are unnecessary because they object to the germ theory entirely and believe they would do better with lifestyle or diet modifications (for instance). This is a big group, but it is qualitatively different from the poverty group, which for the most part, would vaccinate if it could. This is, essentially, the group which has no medical exemption but *chooses* not to vaccinate, for their own personal reasons. I favor the “conscientious objector” term because it is more inclusive; while non-religious philosophical exemptions are legally distinct from religious ones, for the purposes of this article I think they can be considered together, because they are examples of nonvaccination by choice, rather than circumstance or biology.

Now, I don’t know whether you feel your son fits better in the conscientious objector category or the medical exemption category; it is entirely possible for him to be in both, in my opinion. But only the conscientious objector category will form a geographic cluster. So it’s not meant to exclude other reasons for vaccination; it’s to describe those reasons which form geographic clusters and which therefore mean that although the numbers look good at the national level, within the neighborhoods with these clusters, the numbers are not so good for herd immunity.

Regarding MMR versus MMRV, do go ahead and ask your doctor, or ask around various clinics which do vaccination. You can probably find MMR in your area, or find someone who can obtain it. I believe it is even still manufactured.

*In the sense of meeting CDC requirements for their age group. I never received a varicella vaccine, for instance, or HiB, because they were not available (much less recommended) when I was undergoing my childhood vaccines.

** I’m not saying immigrants are ignorant in general; they are generally ignorant of the local culture, however, which is sort of unavoidable even for wealthy and educated ones. The degree of culture shock varies.

@ Jen: Here’s a little anecdote I hope you will consider.

I read Wakefield’s original study in the late ’90’s and thought it very odd. I was surprised a few years later when I read about the strength the anti-vaccine movement had gathered based on his work: even my own cousin was very worried about vaccinating his newborn ( Fall 2001)- I told him, ” Don’t worry.”

Now why would I do that? And possibly endanger a child of a terrific guy I have always *really* liked and who had waited so long for?

Because I studied child development ( including neuro-development) and the study didn’t fit in with what I already knew… and it had 12 subjects… and it wasn’t replicated… and something else.

My prof lectured about a highly respected psychologist who was found to have created data to show how intelligence was inherited. His fictional results had far-ranging consequences on educational policy for dis-advantaged kids: if IQ is largely genetic why sink money into schools for those who will never achieve anyway? But there weren’t similar results.

He got caught because his numbers were too perfect- correlations were identical to 3 places ( which would be highly unlikely by chance). And he made up subjects and assistants as well as data. I sometimes wonder if Wakefield ( my contemporary) knew this and used the IQ study as a way to figure out how *not* to get caught ( his data didn’t line up perfectly- not 12 of 12, but 8; his so-authors were real people).

To sum up: my suspicions were aroused *because* of what I had already knew. And it wasn’t just one thing. If there are studies that point against the consensus ( which is based on many contributions over decades) they will need to be replicated. We haven’t seen that on any of the major points usually relied upon by the anti-vaccine movement.

Jen:

I would not have persisted in the face of a lack of vaccinated VS unvaccinated studies (

Why do you keep repeating this lie, even though you have been told multiple times that before the 1970s there were several vax vs. unvaxed studies? They were done on disabled children who were in institutions like Willowbrook.

And they were done Africa and other developing countries. Look at this paper from the early 1960s. Now go to Table 1, and see what the third column is about. Now tell us how you would avoid what happens in the second row of that column.

I have told you before to not bring up the “vaccinated versus unvaccinated” study unless you can show a design that would avoid what happens in the second row of Table 1 in that paper. Explain exactly how the unvaxed arm of the study would be protected. Otherwise, we would just figure you really hate children, or have a special love of eugenics.

@121 – She means she wants to see some researchers do a large prospective study of completely unvaccinated children compared to fully vaccinated children.

You know, give 100% placebo vaccines to thousands of children and see what the rate of autism, allergies and the rest of the problems that vaccines supposedly cause is in that group compared to the rates in the fully vaccinated children’s group.

Of course, if the researchers insist on including a comparison of the rates of illness, hospitalization, disability, and death from vaccine-preventable diseases, the anti-vaccine groups will cry foul.

You know, give 100% placebo vaccines to thousands of children and see what the rate of autism, allergies and the rest of the problems that vaccines supposedly cause is in that group compared to the rates in the fully vaccinated children’s group.

Don’t forget that you have to follow them for the course of a lifetime. Anything else would be hasty.

There’s a good review of William Foege’s new book “House On Fire” (about the fight to eradicate smallpox) in today’s Wall St. Journal (and reviewed elsewhere here).

The tale of this vaccination-centered effort is an inspiring one, at a time when we are getting close to eliminating polio and facing challenges keeping down other once-feared diseases, thanks in part to ignorance and fear.

History’s lessons are cruel to the antivax movement, but so valuable for the rest of us.

Jen,
I will apologize for being snippy with you this morning; I am little short on sleep due to a preschooler with a fever, and I realize that I didn’t express myself well.

But here’s the thing, Jen: You can’t just assert “there actually are quite a few researchers” without giving us more information. If there are so many of them, surely you (a) know some of their names or (b) can look them up and point them out to us. Again, knowing your style of posting I didn’t expect you to post a link. But I do want to see for myself what you’re talking about and I can’t do that unless you show me where to look. I’m not going to go on a wild goose chase trying to read your mind across the internet. And you’ve been posting here long enough that you know what’s expected of commenters. If you’d like to gain some credibility on the issues, you need to get more specific than you’ve been.

As for the other issue that added to the anger I expressed in my earlier response: it’s your move.

JohnV 127: I wish I could have pulled the Jen gambit when writing my dissertation.

I could have had the six-month PhD. “This is true, and there are citations out there that say it is; you can go look them up. And some studies should really be done, but I can’t be arsed with biological rationale, experimental design, or actually doing them.”

My old grade school doesn’t come up in the drop-down, either under Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Laboratoy School or its nickname, King Lab. But both my sister’s (ETHS) and my (Oak Park River Forest) high schools look pretty good. OPRFHS offered a lot of solid AP courses – it had good science (I tested out of a full college year of bio, physics, math, and english 101, bless).

One of the researchers Jen is refusing to cite may be Christopher Shaw at UBC. He has recently started making a lot of noise about adjuvants in vaccines. He was also one of the organizers of the antivax Quackapalooza in Jamaica this January. Unfortunately, he is affiliated with my alma mater. Also unfortunately, he probably has tenure.

Sorry, I can’t provide links, I can’t cut-and-paste in Netscape on my work terminal. Google will locate this stuff fairly easily.

@JayK “If you can’t cite something, I have to assume you’re lying.”

Actually, I think you’re _concluding_ (based on refusal to provide claimed evidence), not _assuming_.

Nitpick complete.

So Jen is a liar that has no actual research to back up her assumptions. Most likely that allows her her confirmation bias without any self-evaluation when it becomes clear that her only sources are other anti-vax liars like herself.

@Jen: TBruce even gave you an easy way out of this lie, you twit.

wimpy-jan: “David N. Andrews, you sound seriously scary.”

Does anyone else think I sound ‘seriously scary’, or is jen-poos just being a bloody wuss?

Well we all tried folks, to help Jen get past her fixations and her anecdotal-family-lore-as-scientific fact. Alas, I feel that we are unsuccessful.

Jen, you still think it is just fine to smear the posters here with your libelous remarks…what a nasty troll you are. Too bad you never developed a moral compass and ethics.

@ Chris: I just love bloggers who are “financial planners” and self-styled “real estate investors” who are libertarians, advocating for “safe (green) vaccines, who have developed the theory of the vaccine-autism links and whose heroes are physicians who have lost their medical licenses or had licenses suspended.

@ David N. Andrews: a bloody wuss.

Jen,
Am I (Chemmomo) TBruce? Did I use the words “unfortunately, he probably has tenure”? Why on earth would you assume I’d be “up to” anything at all in the first place? And, more importantly, let’s consider this: had TBruce (not Chemmomo) posted his unfortunate (pun intended) comment (#145, June 22, 2011 4:02 PM) when you accused me of planning to harass researchers? Let me give you a hint: you did it in post #124 at June 22, 2011 10:29 AM. Last I checked, time still only goes in one direction.

I feel sorry for you if the people you normally associate with display so little integrity that you assume the rest of us behave the same way.

@ Chris: Thanks for the link to the PubMed citation and Christopher Shaw; he’s not an opthamologist, but a professor of Opthamology and Visual Science at UBC. (BSc-UC-Irvine, MSc and Ph.D-University of Jerusalem)

I clicked on his name at the top of the PubMed citation and wow he’s been a busy author…8 pages of citations. And, he’s “all over the lot” as authoring articles on autism, RSV (respiratory syncytial virus)-eliciting higher antibody levels, breast cancer and every other specialty, sub specialty and sub-sub specialty in medicine and genetics.

@ Jen: stop “projecting” what you would do or what you may have done to people “when you don’t like what they are doing”.

Jen, all Andrews did was ask you to back up your claims, like anyone else.

From Chris @154:
“lilady, there is also some guy who is trying to link taking a certain pain medication after vaccines to autism. Guess what he is? A dentist!”

So what? Anyone can come up with a hypothesis-you don’t need any special credentials to generate an idea. Who knows? That “dentist” may just be on to something.

Just a thought.

“Bigger than Medium-Size Jack but not as big than Big Jack” Jack.

Crivens!

lilady, Jen and Jen in Tex are two separate people. Jen in Tex is okay, except for one bit on pain medication. Jen in Tex is also not happy about the treatment at Thoughtful House. Please give her a break, and do not mix her up with other “Jen.”

The problem is still those who speculate outside their field of expertise. Unfortunately, I am saddened to say, there are too many engineers who fall into this category. Among them are Gary Goldman (computer science), Mary Lansky (computer science), Andy Cutler (chemical engineer)… and there are several more.

Since we know that everything that follows another event in time is caused by that event, then obviously if anyone is exposed to aluminum, that will cause all the problems they will ever have. And since aluminum is only the third most common element on Earth, nobody could possibly be exposed to it except through vaccination. I’m convinced!

@DW-DL-etc: “Don’t think so- *at all*- but I suspect that we are f–cking related! (less than third cousins)”

Heh – at least on some transpersonal level 😉
We’re awesome 😛

@lilady: “a bloody wuss.”
Yeh. I thought so.

@GF: “Jen, all Andrews did was ask you to back up your claims, like anyone else.”
Thank you 🙂

@the-stupid-wikkle-fuck-wuss: “David N. Andrews, M. Ed., C. P. S. E.: whatever C. P. S. E. stands for I’m sure they’re really proud of the way you represent yourself and them.”
Oh, I am proud of them. You have no qualification worthy of naming, it would seem. And I’m proud of how I represent them: as a no-nonsense person. You come in here, talking all manner of fucking bollocks and expect us to believe what you say – without giving us a scrap or a shred of proper bloody evidence to back up what you say. And that’s when you’re not being an insensitive twat, steam-rollering over the feelings of people who’ve had some serious misfortune in their lives… something you seem to do just to make yourself feel better about yourself without having to do anything serious – like, oh I dunno, doing some proper learning or even figuring out how to stop being a contemptible little shit (which – and I’m damn certain everyone here will agree with me on – is what you really fucking are).

If you can’t handle being talked to like this, then you should get out of here and leave this blog the fuck alone. Because this is all you will get from me until you have done the following:

1- learned to at least understand science;
2- learned to be more sensitive to the feelings of others;
3- learned to provide proper citations for the things you say (on matters relating to research);
4- learned to shut the fuck up on issues in which you have no bloody expertise.

Now, get the fuck out of here, and don’t let the metaphorical door smack yer arse on the way out. Have a nice day, now!

Ender, aren’t both Myers and Dawkins professors of biology? Gasp! I’m not sure how that equates to a PhD in computer science running a rag called “Medical Veritas.” Or like Lansky, writing a book on how homeopathy cured her son of (diagnosed by her only) autism.

@Chris – yes professors of biology. Gasp! As I said in my comment. What about that confuses you?

PhD in computer science : Magazine “Medical Veritas”
PhD in biology : Book/Blog on religion.

It’s like the parallel was incredibly obvious already.

@DW – that wasn’t an ‘abstruse hint’ unless you’re incapable – it was a direct comparison. And it wasn’t about atheism, it was about religion i.e. not their area of expertise, as mentioned in Chris’ comment.

Chris: Now tell us how you [Jen] would avoid what happens in the second row of that column.

Would she? You are talking to someone who wrote, I’m sorry but chicken pox, for the vast majority of kids, isn’t deadly! Empathy like that is normally found only in sociopaths and serial killers.

There’s a thought, let me google…. It looks like very few of the serial killers on Wikipedia’s list ever killed seven or more people in a single year. So it’s actually safer to have one serial killer per 100,000 people than to let your kids catch chickenpox – or, as Jen might put it, Jeffrey Dahmer, for the vast majority of kids, wasn’t deadly!

Um… Ender (@172) You’re comparing apples to aardvarks – the problem comes when making statements of fact outside your area of expertise. Anyone can have opinions about anything – claiming factual expertise outside your area is questionable.

And, since it is not possible to make statements of fact about religion (at least beyone trivial ones like “there are x-number of followers of such-and-such faith”, or “Luke 2:1 says…”), it is all opinion and fair game to anyone. Science and medicine ain’t.

Because there is biological evidence that supports the evolutionary origins of “belief”, Myers, Coyne and other biologists have the exact qualifications to discuss it. From the well documented and researched facts of altruism and pareidolia to group theories and even cognitive research, there is plenty of evidence that humans are just stuck with an evolutionary appendix called “religion”. Given that we are consciously aware of the evolutionary origins of belief, it is up to the scientists to keep on attempting to prove that religion is nothing more than a less-functional appendix that does nothing for the human race.

Right Ender?

@Anotaeus Feldspar:

I don’t know about anyone else, but I think digressing from the subject of vaccination to infighting over religion is a mistake.

There was a serious concern about the credibility of those that produce hypothesis/theories/research. I think Ender actually had an interesting question, and while it probably was intended to distract from the vaccination debate, it was easily answerable and provides a good point/counterpoint example of why it is important for those doing research to have credible backgrounds. Dentistry, for instance, isn’t a scientific academic background. It lacks any sort of training in skepticism or empiricism, it is essentially a type of trade skill training that has developed because of scientific research. Same thing with many physicians, their studies lack the type of training and coursework that would demand investigation, research and skepticism to create a real scientist.

So when Barbara Loe-ball Fisher or any of the other anti-vaccers attempt to use scientific methods, or when your local dentist attempts to disprove evolution by studying Ica Stones, then it is easy to ignore those sources and demand sources with at least a modicum of credibility.

Antaeus Feldspar @178: Thank you

Scientific vs. Science, Chemmomo. Scientific backgrounds would insist upon courses that factored in a significant amount of research and critical thinking. Undergraduate courses typically lack those scientific basics, instead focusing on current knowledge and memorization. While chemistry/biology/physics require some derivation of advanced concepts and formula in a pyramid fashion, it isn’t exactly critical thought and most of it can be done in the same fashion as trade work.

Advanced specialization in a discipline can also be done without the skills necessary for producing scientific research or reviews, although many schools and programs attempt to at least familiarize the students with the concepts. For instance, an engineer may spend time in the lab taking measurements and deriving statistical constants or validating theory, yet that is only using facial scientific techniques. There is little critical thought or development of intuitive hypothesis.

Orac and many commenters here have made similar observations in the past, but I cast a bit wider net with my comment. I’ve been short of temper the last few days and my comments have probably reflected that mood, so if anyone found my comment offensive, it wasn’t really intended that way, but I can understand it. I just find myself with little patience for those that believe they have scientific backgrounds, because of their educational backgrounds, but are little more than a common short-order cook applying recipes to problems that are already well defined.

Then again, I may be making assumptions about what students retain from introductory science courses vs what we think was taught.

I hear from so many people – “Science in college was so pointless. I just memorized a bunch of facts and forgot them after the exam.”

So either they didn’t have good instructors, or they didn’t care to learn. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was a bit of both. Bio 201/202 at my college was a great year of classes that you couldn’t pass if you were only regurgitating facts; for exam questions in most quarters, you had to design little experiments and draw conclusions from observations.

I think we should be clear (with others and with ourselves) that we don’t reject ideas and research purely because of the credentials of the proponent. If we did, I believe we would have missed out on a few important observations by a physicist who was still a postal clerk when his hypotheses first came to attention.

But just because we acknowledge that someone without formal qualifications could have gone about their work without making any significant errors, we don’t expect that to be the case, for the simple reason that errors are easy to make. That is in fact why the entire discipline of science exists, to deal with the myriad ways that errors can creep into our observations and perceptions. Expecting someone who hasn’t studied all the sources of error to successfully navigate past them all is like expecting an amateur batter to go up against a pro baseball team’s best pitcher and not get struck out. If there’s a place where that analogy is imperfect, it’s that the pitcher might choose to show mercy and go easy on the amateur; the amateur scientist cannot expect such mercy from impersonal, implacable Error.

Actually, Antaeus Feldspar, given that the entry requirements into science are so demanding, how could a layman expose their theories to the world at large? Dentists/engineers/counselors all at least understand the trappings of science and publications and could at least brave the submittal process. Laymen with no qualifications would probably find it almost impossible to disperse their ideas without at least an organizational recommendation.

A few areas where that might not quite be true would be paleontology, astronomy and possibly a few others. However, from what I know of areas like electrical engineering, one would have to spend thousands of dollars just for the entertainment of being turned down by an organization like the IEEE. Perhaps I’m wrong, but can you even find a post-2000 citation by someone without multiple letters behind their names?

Ender, I still don’t care.

Obviously you did not understand the point about Cutler’s and Kerry’s hand in the execution of a little boy whose only crime was that he was autistic.

@Jen
I haven’t read through all 194 posts so please forgive me if something I say has already been covered.

You seem to believe, from what I’ve read, that nobody here could possibly understand your position because they don’t have children and so don’t really understand the risks or fears that come into play when your child is involved. For the record, I’m a mom, probably have more experience being a mom then you. I have six children.

My first four were born prior to the chicken pox vaccine being required or part of the normal childhood vaccine schedule. My fifth and sixth children have received it. My older four all had chicken pox naturally. My oldest didn’t get much of a rash and she didn’t infect the younger children when she had it. She got it from a little boy in her kindergarten class. She had four or five spots, but had a fever over 104 for an entire week, couldn’t eat and couldn’t get out of bed. I had to carry her to the bathroom to bathe and toilet to make sure she didn’t fall and get hurt.

The next three all caught it at the same time. This was about two years later when my second was in kindergarten and he caught it from a child in his class also. He woke up one morning covered in spots and had a slight fever. His rash was mild compared to what his younger brothers got. The youngest at the time (forth born) was just 9 months old and was so miserable he was crying all the time, when normally he didn’t cry at all. My third child got the rash spots in his ears which eventually became infected and he had to start taking antibiotics because he had several spots that wouldn’t clear up on their own and were beginning to ooze. He was only three and didn’t understand that scratching and picking would make them worse and he was always a picker. He would “take his owies off” (scabs from scratches and scrapes) when he was a year and a half and give them to me. Kind of gross but there you are.

When my fifth came along, I had no objection to having her get the chicken pox vaccine. I had seen what it can do and I didn’t want to put her through it, nor did I want to have to watch her suffer either. My sixth, he wasn’t vaccinated when he was an infant but he is fully vaccinated now. He has autism and sensory integration issues. Can you imagine a child with sensory issues having a case of chicken pox? I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. What my children suffered through was mild compared to what I’ve heard others have suffered through. But I still wouldn’t want to force anyone to suffer through something unnecessarily.

Perhaps, before you bad mouth something you have clearly read all the propaganda about from one camp, learn the other side of the story also. There is a reason a vaccine is developed. It isn’t done on a whim.

Some pretty awful stories about chicken pox. I don’t know how my son avoided contracting varicella for many years, but he caught it at age 19…just a few years before the vaccine became available.

We spotted a few telltale marks starting to blister, called the doctor for a prescription and immediately started him on Acyclovir, which is specifically formulated to lessen the severity and shorten the time of acute herpes viruses illnesses. It worked quite well; he had many poxes but they dried quickly and the itching was minimal.

Now a great, highly effective vaccine is available so that children are protected from the more serious aspects of the disease.

McDonald -> McDougall! Oops … lunchtime and food is on my mind!

@Chris – You reply a lot for someone who doesn’t care. I get your point, it’s clear you don’t get mine.

@Chris – I don’t know what you’re thinking, but I can see what you’ve written, it’s still there, up above, and it still says what it says. Sure the consequences were different, but the error remains the same, exceeding your area of expertise.

@ Ender: Obviously you haven’t read the link that Chris provided about the youngster who died from Chelation as “treatment for autism”. You “surely” understand don’t you that:

Chelation is indicated ONLY for heavy metal (arsenic, lead, mercury) toxicity and occasionally for iron overload for persons who have specific blood disorders.

Chelation has been used by Alternative Medicine practitioners for such bogus diagnoses as “chronic” Lyme disease and by DAN doctors to treat autism. At a minimum, chelation used by the scamming doctors only remove cash from the pockets of their patients; very often the patient “pays” the ultimate price…death…which is what happened to this little boy.

The DAN doctor used the wrong chelation agent (for the wrong diagnosis) on the little boy.

The DAN doctor directed an untrained and unqualified person to administer the wrong chelation agent via IV Push.

The wrong chelation agent and the “IV pushed bolus dose” by an untrained and unqualified person is what stopped this little boy’s heart and killed him. Of course the DAN doctor didn’t mean to kill him, but the little boy is dead…a victim of this DAN doctor.

BTW, DAN doctors are still in business, providing unproven, often downright dangerous “treatments” for innocent little kids who have autism.

@ Agasham: Thingy is an uneducated nasty troll. He/she/it is totally clueless about disease, vaccine preventable diseases, immunology, epidemiology of diseases and even junior high or high school basic biology or chemistry.

I hardly ever engaged Thingy because it is an exercise in futility. Others engage Thingy and have fun with the troll, because of the crazy postings elicited by the Thing.

Ender, your petty differences are still off topic. You played strawman by rephrasing my comments. That is idiotic and silly.

Personally the petty stuff with those biologists bore me. I am so indifferent to them that I really don’t plan on going to Dr. Dawson’s talk at TAM 9. Though I will go see Dr. Myers’ talk on aliens, because that is a much cooler subject (I attended to a fascinating talk he gave on eyes).

How you managed to equate engineers and medical doctors going way outside their field of expertise that endangers children to a petty argument is beyond the pale. If you have anything to say about vaccines, the return of killer diseases, quackery that endangers children and medical misconduct, please share. Otherwise take your silly argument somewhere else, because it is boring, stupid, silly, petty and completely off topic.

lidady:

The DAN doctor used the wrong chelation agent (for the wrong diagnosis) on the little boy.

Actually it was not the “wrong” chelation agent, that was an excuse used after the fact. Kerry only ever stocked that form of EDTA. That is what their little toxicology club put into their pseudo-journals.

Also, Kerry is not the only culprit. It also includes Andy Cutler, Phd in chemical engineering, who helped create this hysteria over mercury, starting with dental fillings (where Boyd Haley also started). Then he branched out with a “Mercury-Autism” yahoo group, the little boy’s mother joined that, and it convinced her son was toxic.

Another way the Mercury Malicia tried to make excuses was to claim the little boy had lead poisoning. Well, if that was true he would have been treated by the NHS in the UK, where they lived. He would not have been sent overseas for his eventual execution for the unspeakable crime of autism.

I shouldn’t forget the guys with business degrees who try to play scientist. The only papers Jen can come up with that criticize the large epidemiological studies are written by folks like Blaxill and Handley. Neither of whom have probably taken any science past the one they needed in college, and no math beyond basic business calculus (which is the mathematical equivalent to the “Rocks for Jocks” geology class).

lilady:

There is another chelating agent (a combination of Endrate with added calcium)

I know. Except Kerry never used it, nor did he ever have it in stock. Do a search of this blog and its predecessor on the discussions of why he only used the one without calcium.

ATTENTION: This is important guys. I have just posted…got it through moderation too…on a website for a local newspaper that is very influential on Long Island, New York.

It seems that Anne Dachel, spokesperson for Age of Autism is posting repeatedly on behalf of the rag. Well, lilady has thrown down the gauntlet, named names, called them out for their yellow journalism and provided a lot of “push back” to Dachel and her fellow travelers.

I need some help here guys…please look at the article and consider posting; site is available at:

A Look Inside the Immunization Dilemma-Long Island Press

P.S. I also “plugged” Science Based Medicine

Ender, get a clue and stop troll type behavior.

are you getting better now? Pei Pa Koa (http://www.geocities.jp/ninjiom_hong_kong/index_e.htm ) is one of the few Chinese untreated cough remedies that have been scientifically studied. it’s something like herb plus honey, and it’s sweet, thick and black in color. If you have a cough, look for it! It used to be one of my favourite untreated cough remedies.
if your cough persists, seek professional help such as traditional Chinese medicine physicians – I have had very excellent experiences with them.

@ lilady #211
I read the article. Is it wrong that I had to take a moment before I could even think about commenting? It really made me angry, the innuendos were ridiculous. Anyway, I did comment, currently awaiting moderation. It’s long, which seems to be the only way I can do anything unfortunately so probably most people won’t even read it. I had a lot to say and I’m not sure how to make a condensed version of it, hehe. Anyway, I got your back!

@ lilady: I commented as “DW”- I tried to appeal to reason-wonder what I’ll be called? I have a few guesses.

As people who have studied medicine, education, or psychology, we have to remember that our perspective is based on reviewing data- over years- while most of the opposition doesn’t have that training: they view their own children emotionally through their own exhaustion and disappointment. It’s really hard to bridge that divide.

How can we discuss the horrible so-called studies they quote as if they were Holy Writ? They are acceptable to them because they don’t understand how research is done and because they fulfill their expectations regardless of the authors’ inexpertise.

Our task may appear insurmountable because we’ll never convince the most vocal adamant believers *but* the slient fence-sitters can compare and contrast the arguments. We have a good shot.

@lilady

I just love all the innuendo and insults that the trolls at the website have thrown at you. Seems to me that you have struck a nerve with some of them.

@Venna, Lilady, and DW re Long Island Press – Brava all of you! I’m not sure what disturbs me more – the article itself, or the fact that so many commenters are calling it “balanced.”

Cath: thanks for the info, but I won’t be able to use the vax. I’m nowhere near fifty, despite my old fashioned real-life name.

Ender,

In the end, the science based medicine bloggers eat their own. I told you, “you were at the bottom of the heirarchy”.

Venna, you’re on shaky ground. When you swim with piranhas you risk getting eatin’ in the frenzy yourself. You’re sloppy. Better make sure you don’t bleed.

lilady, I’ve thought about commenting (for over 24 hrs now), but the article itself make me incoherently angry. Plus I now live on the opposite side of the county. But the “incoherent” part of my anger is the bigger part of the problem.

Augustine, do you believe your words are appropriate for a mature adult?

Augustine, do you believe your behavior is appropriate for an adult?

Gee, just when we were missing the Ugh Troll it shows up again.

In your absence Troll, we had some secrets votes:

Which new intelligent poster do we want to welcome into our elite crowd?

Results: Venna won (not “Verra”)

Which long-term ignorant Ugh Troll do we want to throw off the island?

Results: Augie won

In your absence Troll, we had some secrets votes:

Oh, Lil old nurse lady from 1960, they never taught you about argumentum ad consentium did they?

Since you’ve found a little virtual bond with some other little friends in the name of science, logic, skepticism, and anti-religion tell me something. What did they teach you in 1960 about sexual reassignment surgery? If one is sexually unambiguous, can they be trapped in the wrong body and need science based medicine to “reassign” them?

Can one also be trapped in the wrong body and actually be a werewolf or kitty cat inside? What does your pink book say about it?

Your liberal rocket scientist (not a medical doctor) friend is having a hard time with this science based charge.

John V, is Venna logically sound? You may want to rethink that.

No answer, chemomom. Exactly.

Gray Falcon

Augustine, do you believe your words are appropriate for a mature adult?

Augustine has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent’s posterior about his miscellaneous verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few will.

Augie,

For starters, your total lack of the ability to spell simple words just screams moron. Also you seem to have a very low level of reading comprehension and try to say someone said one thing when they really said something entirely different. Any time someone posts a statement you aren’t able to argue against (which is quite often actually) you result to defamation of character in a very crude sense, resorting to junior high antics in a moronic attempt, I can only assume, to make them cry. Sorry, but most of us have grown up and beyond the rules of play ground engagement. No more of this “my dad can beat up your dad stuff” you’re on your own. You have been weighed, you have been measured and you have been found wanting. Welcome to adulthood, may God have mercy on your soul!

Chemomom

augustine, dude – that’s plagiarism.

Let me fix that for you, chemical lover.

Augustine, like ORAC,”has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent’s posterior about his miscellaneous verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few will.”

@augie

The name is veNNa, not veRRa. Are you doing that are purpose in some insane and moronic attempt to be funny? This is obviously not the place to discuss religion or spirituality, just as this isn’t the place to discuss politics. Therefore, in this particular sense, you are correct, there is no god here, and there shouldn’t be. We aren’t talking about faith, we are talking about science and medicine which are based on fact, not faith. Therefore, nothing wrong with that.

augustine

Let me fix that for you, chemical lover

Try living without them.

Augie farted: “Even crazy ass David N.Andrews A.B.C.D.L.M.O.P. can do that.”

Let’s give lil’ augie some qualifications, eh? Let’s say this:

Augustinus Imbecilis BFA, MFN, DipShit.

Just so this non-educated waste of what should have been a good wank doesn’t feel so left out amongst those of us who actually have proper qualifications. You know… those of us who actually went through our schooling and our university education. Because we all know that augie’s parents were to mean/stupid/high-as-kites to send him to a proper school to learn things that any reasonable person would get to know.

Gray Falcon: “Augustine, do you believe your words are appropriate for a mature adult?”

Gray Falcon: “Augustine, do you believe your words are appropriate for an adult?”

Two questions that augie cannot possibly answer since he has no clue what is or isn’t appropriate for anybody.

Augustine: “Augustine has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent’s posterior about his miscellaneous verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few will.”

Chemmomo: “augustine, dude – that’s plagiarism.”

Not just that, Chemmomo It’s also pretty strong evidence that augie cannot think something cool up for himself!

Venna: “The name is veNNa, not veRRa. Are you doing that are purpose in some insane and moronic attempt to be funny?”

I wouldn’t worry, Venna. He’s doing that for one reason and one reason only… he is, in Monty Python parlance, ‘an annoying little tit’. We’ve tried to explain to him, in many ways, that he’s in with the bog boys and girls here and has neither the verbal skills nor the cognitive skills he needs to be able to hold his own here. Of course, we throw him the occasional bone, but really we just laughat him until he gets too stupid and then we slap the wee knob-head down.

Novalox: “Obviously, augie hasn’t had much of a science education, based on that statement and many others moronic statements of his.”

Actually, he hasn’t had any sort of education, really. He’s ‘home-schooled’ (i. e., kept at home so he couldn’t mix with anybody else and thereby become influenced by the satanic world that surronded his crack-pot family home; as opposed to home-schooled, meaning given a high quality education in his home surroundings by parents who wanted him to learn about things being taught in schools in a more relaxed manner, and with more opportunity for honing any rational debating skills that might be developed). In a way, I kinda pity this poor moron, since he’s a product of his parents’ collective stupidity and irresponsibility. But – well – he has a choice as to how he behaves, and whether he decides to learn from people who know and understand far more than he does, eiks niin? So, maybe just a wee bit of pity (it being a rather nasty emotion, based largely on schadenfreude and little on actual caring). And a lot of scorn. And example of his scientific understanding: “When you swim with piranhas you risk getting eatin’ in the frenzy yourself.”

No clue about actual piranha feeding behaviour! Piranhas only occasionally attack humans, and even then mostly in places where fish are gutted and the entrails are disposed of into the water.

“Feel free to discourse.”

Correct me if I’m wrong here, people, but isn’t ‘discourse’ a noun and not a verb? Wouldn’t we usually say, for example, ‘feel free to engage in discourse’?* Surely an educated person would know that discourse is ‘engaged in’ and not just ‘done’.

But, no. Augie’s no educated person at all.

lilady: “Tell us about your un-immunized imaginary children, your imaginary sex life…as if, your imaginary education and your imaginary gainful employment.”

FTFY. YW 😉

Imaginary sex life? Wow… that has to be one of the best I’ve seen levied against this world champion masturbator! You just brought a grin to my face! Maybe that could be a second master’s ‘degree’ for him: M. Bate.

I have things to do now. If augie gets out of hand, feel free to skelp his airse.

* Or is that word going the same way as nouns like ‘access’ because pillocks like augie are trying to use nouns as intransitive verbs?

imbecile alert @254.

Could be that stoner idiot; can’t see it being augie. He’s not clever enough to come up with even that pathetic post.

I have a very low tolerance for reading the comments here ;-), but let me just add my experience to Venna’s, since I agree, the assumption that none of us are parents is obnoxious and stupid as hell. All my kids are vaccinated for CP, because when I was in high school, I lost a friend to CP. We were in our late teens and (long before the vaccine) he teased his much-younger sister about getting chicken pox – everyone thought he’d had it. Then, when he first got it, I teased him about getting a “baby” disease. Three days later he was hospitalized with pneumonia and two after that, he’d died – he had complicating health factors including asthma, but it was the chicken pox that killed him.

My oldest son has autism – but he also had CP (before he was of age to get the vaccine), contracted from a friend. He never had the CP vaccine, or thimerosol-containing vaccines – and he showed symptoms of autism from birth. My other kids sure as hell got the CP vaccine and the rest of them – and are not autistic. Sure, this is anecdotal, but because I’m not an idiot, I can see the statistical benefits as well.

Sharon

Isn’t it funny how Augie tries to dictate standards of conduct for others that he won’t even try to follow himself?  In a thread where J. B. Handley was being called an idiot (for proposing the bizarre conspiracy theory that “Sullivan” was Bonnie Offit) Augie claimed to believe that if you said anything insulting about anyone who had ever made any claims, anywhere, it was automatically an “ad hominem” argument aiming to discredit those claims by attacking the person.

But obviously Augie doesn’t believe in that standard of conduct when it comes to his behavior!  I guess it shows what Augie really thinks of his anti-science stance:  He knows it can’t be defended in fair debate, so he tries never to let a debate stay fair.

@augie

The name is veNNa, not veRRa.

@Verra

The name is Augustine, not AugIE.

@ Ender: I stand in awe of your word usage…no doubt acquired from visiting anti-vax sites and your trolling activities. From the Urban Dictionary:

Anecdata: The use of multiple points of anecdotal data to confirm any stipulation, often used to “prove” pseudo-science claims of illnesses and treatments.

(Example provided) Jenny McCarthy uses anecdata gathered from dozens of accounts to support her pseudo-science treatment for childhood autism.

Anecdata is never acceptable in science-based medicine. The use of examples of decreasing rates of invasive HIB disease following licensing of a vaccine and the example of infant deaths due to pertussis disease is not anecdotal or anecdata, when a clinician/specialist in epidemiology who actually investigated the said cases, posts on a website.

It is acceptable to illustrate the impact or meaning of the data via anecdote. (When dealing with the general public, this is even desirable as a way to personalise the matter.) However anecdotes shouldn’t be the data.

As long as the differences are kept clear I don’t have a problem with anecdotes. It’s when they become anecdata that I take issue.

— Steve

But obviously Augie doesn’t believe in that standard of conduct when it comes to his behavior! I guess it shows what Augie really thinks of his anti-science stance: He knows it can’t be defended in fair debate, so he tries never to let a debate stay fair.

QFT

So it’s official! Augustine doesn’t breathe, bathe or eat. I gotta ask this question of him… What is your opinion of the use of dihydrogen monoxide?

Dihyrdrogen Monoxide

Yes, it is quite handy for colds and croup, it is also a very effective solvent. Remember we are laughing at you, not with you.

And you can also get little bottles of dihydrogen monoxide with some sodium chloride mixed in as a nasal spray.

Little Augie, we are laughing at the person who does not know about dihydrogen monoxide. You.

No I’m smirking at your amusement. Perhaps you would like to inhale it also. Make sure it coats the lungs thoroughly. 8 -8oz glasses is recommended.

Chris

Especially with your pointless backtracking trying to forget the “Merck” statement.

Your pretty thick in social skills for a rocket scientist pretending to be a medical expert. If you didn’t take yourself so seriously you could see that it was a joke.
Some things science just can’t teach you.

Augustine

You said previously that you live without chemicals, and yet chemicals are what we are made up of, do most of what we do that is required to keep us alive and really chemicals are everywhere and you can’t get away from them, nor can you live without them so your statement was, once again, an example of how moronic you are. Everything that happens in your body is a chemical reaction. By saying you live without chemicals, you are showing just how much of a fool you really are. There is this thing that people like to do before they talk sometimes, it’s called thinking. You might want to try it from time to time. The results will amaze you!

Aww, thanks lilady! I wasn’t replying really, just having a bit of sport with him. You know, similar to a cat playing with a ball of string. Although in this situation that might be slightly insulting to the string.

Oh, I don’t feel bad. I guess they feel it would be ‘bad form’ to attack/insult someone who has a son with autism and has already been attacked by other autism parents from the anti-vax camp for simply not believing the same way they do. It’s easier to just ignore me and pretend I don’t exist. There will come a time, in short order I believe, when these anti-vax people will be silenced. Not that they won’t continue to scream and shout that they are correct in their assumptions, but that scientific fact will speak so loudly and clearly against their position that they will finally be seen as the crazy bunch of woo-ists they have always been. Research is so close to finding the real cure, and when they do find it, the anti-vaxers will be laughed at. It’s started already and they can feel it. These are the last desperate flailings of the drowning victim.

I am a long time reader but first time poster. I fear I have been sucked into the vortex of stupid created by such posters as Jen and augie and I will soon regret this.

@Jen
Firstly, those above are correct in saying there are studies of vaccinated vs unvaccinated children but further to Todd W. above who I am sure has dealt with this previously, there is absolutely no way that a study doing this now would be able to be designed. Why? you ask because simply it is UNETHICAL.

A study like that would never get through but in the hypothetical chance there was one running the safety officer would cease it so quickly you would not even be able to complain. The benefit of vaccines is so great it would be unethical to continue any trial like this as deny the placebo group the vaccination.

As for adjuvant trials. To change the adjuvant they would need to develop a whole new trial vaccine. Considering that the adjuvants are already proven to not cause harm at those amounts, no one would be wasting their time or money. Let me tell you, designing and manufacturing drugs is not just a case of chucking ingredients together and mixing.

Hi Venna: Yes, I want to donate specifically for your team…but dumb me doesn’t know how. I went to the site, located your “team”…but don’t see how I can do it with a credit card on the site.

Can you provide us with the address of the Oregon Autism Speaks chapter so I will send a check…notating on the check that I am sponsoring team Igoenitchu

Go Team Igoenitchu!!!

Hi Venna and Good Morning: Sorry for the mix-up about the donation…the check has been sent. My fault really…I’m a real dodo when it comes to computer stuff…Chris can verify!!

I sent the check and also enclosed a note for you for forwarding by Autism Speaks.

Viktor looks like a sweet child, full of enthusiasm…and don’t they keep you young.

I’m delighted that you are involved in Autism Speaks as I think you will have the opportunity to me other parents with children on the Spectrum…face to face…and very welcoming.

I’ll be away for a 2 week vacation July 1-13th and I’ll be missing RI…so keep on posting. Go Team Igoenitchu !!!

Affectionately, lilady

@ lilady

I hope your vacation is fun and enjoyable! Thank you for sending in your donation, hopefully it gets counted for my team, but even if it isn’t, it’s still going toward real research and that’s what mattes.

Viktor is a handful at times but very sweet and fun and full of love. He’s learning to spontaneously say I love you (I nuv e-you, as he pronounces it) which makes my heart leap and my eyes fill with tears every time I hear it. I don’t always have the energy necessary for keeping up with him. Hopefully I’ll be able to find a PCP soon (welfare medical coverage has its limitations unfortunately) and can go and get my knees checked and figure out what’s wrong with them, possibly have my blood sugar levels taken because diabetes runs in my family and I worry about it developing in me as I’ve already been shows to be insulin resistant. Basically see if there’s anything that can be done to help with my waning energy so I can keep up with Viktor better. Anyway, I need to go because Viktor wants me to build him a house with his blocks now.

@Politicalguineapig: Ah…to be “no where near fifty…once again…(sigh). Right you are about incidence of shingles being much higher beyond age 50. Just in case any “eldsters” are here, the “Shingles Vaccine” is recommended for ages 60 and above…and of course there is a VIS-Shingles Vaccine available on the web.

I mentioned in a prior post (here?) that my son got chicken pox at age 19…we were able to lessen the attack, shorten the time of the disease and decrease itching by starting him on Acyclovir (brand name Zovirax) which is specifically targeted for any herpes outbreak. Information on Acyclovir is available at:

PubMed Health Acyclovir

Yes, when I worked at the health department we used to call “Shingles…the ‘gift’ that keeps on giving”.