More evidence for the effectiveness of vaccines

Unfortunately, if there’s one thing I’ve learned over the years, it’s that anti-vaccinationists will not be swayed by evidence, data, science, or reason.

Neither are the vaccine nazi’s. I’ve learned that they are driven by some sort of socialist morality instead.

Too bad that they laser beam focus in on a particular disease that they can’t see the effects of the medicine they want mass inoculated.

Can you say Shingles?

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X02001809

Mass varicella vaccination is expected to cause a major epidemic of herpes-zoster, affecting more than 50% of those aged 10–44 years at the introduction of vaccination.

http://www.advisorybodies.doh.gov.uk/jcvi/mins-varicella-041207.htm

The group discussed published data from the USA. These studies indicate that mass childhood vaccination has reduced the incidence of varicella. The data are also consistent with modelling studies that have predicted an increase in zoster as a result of reduced virus prevalence and hence decreased opportunities for boosting of immunity to zoster by natural infection. In two studies where varicella rates were shown to decrease, there was also a significant increase in zoster post varicella vaccination.

But don’t worry. Pharma made a vaccine for the vaccine.

yes, Augustine would prefer people to suffer both chickenpox as children and shingles later in life, than to vaccinate for either, or both. Yep, it’s much better for millions to suffer for perpetuity than have any slight increase in shingles now (an increase that can be alleviated with a vaccine that’s already available).

Orac,

Some of them even go so far as to have “parties” for their children to infect each other with the disease.

Like how you invite people to attend the party of all parties in every clinic just to get infected with the disease. Yeah right.

Yeah, chickenpox is really benign. I brought it home and gave it to my older brother and infant sister. My sister had a mild case, so got it again as an adult and was very ill for a few weeks, requiring hospitalization. She would have loved a vaccine if it had been available; even paying cash for the vaccine would have been cheaper than her hospital bill turned out to be.

And chickenpox is mild, too. After all, it’s “normal” for a 5 year old to be so covered with pox that she can’t sit, lie down, use a toilet, sleep, eat, or drink for 3 days. Aveeno didn’t help my daughter; none of the available “treatments” did. Giving a 5 year old Ty*lenol with Co*diene for the severe pain she was in (not just the itching) is just so normal. I always want to have to give my child narcotics. Nearly needing to hospitalize her because of dehydration is normal, too.

After all, it’s just a mild, childhood disease! /snark

And we all get to look forward to the chance of shingles as seniors unless we get the shingles vaccine (and trust me, I am counting the years till I am eligible!) I can recall when my grandfather had shingles. He was in pain for months. And a friend’s father still has repercussions from his bout of shingles 4 years ago.

ORAC

Chickenpox is viewed by many anti-vaccine advocates as being benign. In most children, it is not that serious, but it does have the potential to cause serious disability and death, which can almost completely prevented using the vaccine.

Nice burning straw man. Very nice.

So, I’d be very interested to get Boring Troll’s opinion on Idiot Troll’s rather “interesting – though most say insane” position on vaccines = infection & being able to avoid all disease by common sense?

Otherwise, if we ignore them, perhaps they can carry on a conversation with each other.

Umm, Augistine (#2), you DO understand that in order to GET shingles at all ever, you must first have chicken pox since it’s all caused by the same the same virus, right? Because your comment sure seems to indicate otherwise, and man would that be super awkward.
Varicilla-Zoster Virus… type of herpes virus…causes chicken pox and then later in life can case shingles, ’cause it’s a herpes virus and they’re all fun with the ending of the latency and starting another herpes party in your body. Except instead of confetti and cake at the party, you have pox.

Also, know what’s more of a bummer AND more expensive than getting two vaccine doses? Meningoencephalitis. However, I certainly will concede it is way more fun (subjectively) to say “meningoencephalitis” than “vaccinate” andandandand it makes more money for pharmaceutical companies if you need an extended hospital stay and long term care for complications from said meningoencephalitis vs. if you get two doses of a vaccine. So that pretty much makes meningoencephalitis doubleplusgood, right??

Aha, a double helping of the trolls this AM. When I posted about this article yesterday at 7:21 PM, Ugh Troll posted at 7:53 PM with one of the “citations” Ugh Troll presents again. Of course the dynamic duo’s other member Thingy chimes in and both were slapped down for their troll-like inane postings.

Too bad neither has sought help for their deranged thinking or have failed out of a number of treatment regimens. Neither one has any sort of life, any education, any jobs and get their “jollies” from the derision that is heaped upon them that they derive from each and every posting.

They haven’t read the article in Pediatrics because they are totally clueless about the analysis and conclusions and because it shoots down their vaccine “theories”.

“morality due to varicella fell 67% in people over 50.”

I know it’s a typo. But . . . “Vaccines cause corruption of the moral fabric of our country!”

Or, um, something? But seriously, given some of the comments I’ve seen here over the years, I could actually see someone running with that.

Nice burning straw man. Very nice.

Apparently your understanding of the term “straw man” is as grossly wrong as with “ad hominem.” It’s only a straw man if the argument referred to is not, in fact, what the other fellow says. But in fact the argument Orac mentioned IS made routinely. For instance:

http://www.ageofautism.com/2011/06/its-chicken-pox-a-normal-childhood-illness-arthurs-dad.html

Not a straw man at all.

She-rah the fear mongah

However, I certainly will concede it is way more fun (subjectively) to say “meningoencephalitis” than “vaccinate”

For informed consent purposes it would be helpful if you brought some data in your attempt to change the context and make chicken pox into some sort of mass childhood killer that every parent should tremble in fear about.

The general population has a 99.999999999999+% chance of NOT getting meningeosnufulufugus as complication of the childhood infection called chickenpox.

Of the few that do, could you please list any underlying conditions that might predispose one to that? Or do you believe it’s totally random and therefore fearful to all?

There are only three things in life that are certain:

Death.

Taxes.

Ugh troll misusing a term of logic.

Unfortunately, many news services decided that the title did NOT “say it all,” and the story has circulated under the headline “Chicken Pox Eradicated? Varicella Vaccine Proven to do the Job.” That kind of media ignorance confuses an already befuddled public.

Well, the results do beg the question of how many of those who died were vaccinated.

Recall the recent measles outbreak. Of the cases where we know the vaccination status, more than 90% of them were not vaccinated, with most of the remainder being undervaccinated (1 dose). Perhaps the adverse outcomes here are all for the non-vaccinated? It very well could be that the chickenpox vaccine could prevent all chickenpox deaths.

Thank you again Orac for all your efforts, we are in awe of your considerable skills.

Infection-promoting skills that is for the herpes-loving creatures like you.

This study is good news. I have a mini-Composer on the way and he will be getting his varicella shot when he gets a chance. I had chickenpox as a boy and while I can’t say I was miserable, it really sucked being unable to see anyone else, stuck up at my grandmother’s house out of town with my siblings (yep, we all got it around the same time) itching constantly.

Infection-promoting skills that is for the herpes-loving creatures like you.

Wow, somebody’s been spending too much time fighting Scourge in WoW.

I personally know someone whose mother died from varicella encephalitis. Yep, this disease is no big deal!

Jokes about roofing and siding shingles aside, the article is very, very exciting. Seeing that graph was a lot like seeing the graph for the polio vaccine’s pre- and post-vaccine creation/release, for the first time. Dramatic change, for sure. It also makes me think of this: http://xkcd.com/54/

PS: Firefox causes the heading of the page to read “More evidence for the effectiveness of vaccines: Respectful Insolence”.

I think that there’s another factor: anti-intellectualism and dislike of experts and the educated. I’ll go into this in more detail in the future. I’m pressed for time today.

You and your psychobabble pet theories. It’s amazing how smart you think you are. And how you belive people should conform to your world view. You could call your little upcoming essay “why people won’t just trust their government and corporate pharma and just get their damn vaccine and how to ridicule these non-one world* thinkers”

Anti-vaccination advocates rely on scare tactics, appeals to emotion, and distortion of information.

Can you assure the spectators that the vaccine nazis, self described as skeptics, do not engage using these tools? In fact the spectators don’t have far to look. They are used in this post alone.

*this type of skeptic is an intolerant bigot to anyone who has a different world view. It is an absolutist mind set. All other world views are simply ridiculed and fairy tales.

ie, anyone who refuses the chickenpox vaccine is an unreasonable idiot who must refuse to see the facts the same way a skeptic does. The glass is half empty no matter what. The facts and evidence says it to be so. There are no other ways to look at it. All of the “glass half empty” lookers have agreed and decided it to be so.

Sorry, but the glass is also half full.The evidence also shows this. And it is reasonable to reject the chicken pox vaccine based on evidence.

*hands up*

I have a question if I may please? From Wiki:

The lymph is then moved along the lymphatic vessel network by either intrinsic contractions of the lymphatic passages or by extrinsic compression of the lymphatic vessels via external tissue forces (e.g. the contractions of skeletal muscles).

Would more of those kinds of contractions of the skeletal muscles help us to fight and recover from infection?

You are not part of the solution.

Definitely not part of YOUR solution, which is to vaccinate every man, woman, and child in the world regardless of risk. Everyone doesn’t need vaccines.

Elizabeth Reid

I personally know someone whose mother died from varicella encephalitis. Yep, this disease is no big deal!

I know someone who knows someone who won the lottery. Yep, it’s a good financial plan.

Hi Jacob.

This thread aptly demonstrates the extent to which the regular trolls here live in worlds of the imagination on the matter of medicine, worlds which only marginally touch on the real world.

This comment aptly confirms your intolerant bigot worldview I described @36. Anyone who does not believe the glass is half empty is living in imaginary fairy land.

You forgot that science can not give you certainty about the world and medicine is certainly not science.

True scientists are humble. True skeptics are always in doubt. Scientism Based skeptics are neither. They are arrogant pricks who are confident in their ideology.

We usually think of vaccines in relation to children, but it occurs to me that there must be thousands of adults in the USA (and other developed countries) who are completely unvaccinated. Thanks to widespread vaccination they are unlikely to have had the childhood diseases that used to be ubiquitous. Since many of those diseases are still not uncommon in other parts of the world, and are considerably more dangerous in adults than in children, those adults are very vulnerable.

Travel outside the USA even to Europe, where measles is now on the rise, and where varicella, for example, is not routinely vaccinated against, would be very risky without vaccination. If herd immunity for any of these diseases fails in the USA, and incidence of these diseases starts to rise, as it has in Europe, those adults could be in serious trouble. Ironically they are the people who have the greatest to gain from encouraging people to have their children fully vaccinated.

@JoeKaistoe

I now have a mental image of poor little augie pecking away at his keyboard.

Earlier, it was pointed out how augustine incorrectly applied the “straw man” fallacy to someone else. Here is an actual example of a straw man argument from augie itself:

Definitely not part of YOUR solution, which is to vaccinate every man, woman, and child in the world regardless of risk.

The reason this is a straw man is that those of us who are pro-vaccine do not argue that everyone, regardless of risks, should be vaccinated. We recognized that there are individuals who have valid medical reasons to not be vaccinated and for whom the risks of the vaccine outweigh the benefits derived, such as risk of anaphylaxis due to allergies to a vaccine ingredient.

Thank you, augie, for demonstrating what a real straw man fallacy is.

I’ll take psychological projection for $400, Alex.

Ashtanga London: read this.

Off topic, but a serious question:

Does anyone know how to use a kill file for commenters in ScienceBlogs? I found one through an old link at Pharyngula; it apparently worked in via greasmonkey in Firefox, but it didn’t work for me in the newer version.

Does anyone know how to use a kill file for commenters in ScienceBlogs? I found one through an old link at Pharyngula; it apparently worked in via greasmonkey in Firefox, but it didn’t work for me in the newer version.

The greasemonkey killfile works here for me

Vasha, the age for the shingles vaccine has recently dropped to fifty (which pretty much covers most of the baby boomers). How young do you want it to be?

Two things. 1) I’d kill for a comment killer, so send me the link, please. Many a neuron have died reading Augustine’s comments alone.

2) What’s the over/under on how long before anti-vaxers have “shingles parties” for the elderly?

@Yogatroll – Pattabhi Jois called with a message for you. Please go practice your asanas and stop annoying people on the Internet.

Every once in a while tiny, tiny corner of me feels a bit sorry for the hardcore antivaxxers. They’ve made such visible, public declarations of their faith and the evidence keeps stacking up against them. Then I remember all the damage they’ve done to people’s health by peddling misinformation and quack treatments, and all the needless fear and guilt they’ve caused for parents – and I take great pleasure in seeing them reap what they’ve sowed.

Ashtubga, I’ve never heard of that, but a quick google search shows that some lymph gland blocks can be cleared in some situations. For example, the following link gives instructions on how to drain a blocked cervical lymph gland during (or immediately after) an ear infection.

http://www.ehow.com/how_4473948_drain-lymph-gland-neck-from.html

If it is true that massage can do this, then I see no reason why a specific move in A. Yoga (or a similar exercise) could not also do this. Of course, I must add a qualifying statement that this is only for this one lymph node, since I didn’t look anything up for any other lymph node, and this is entirely new to me, so I could be completely wrong here.

Lynx, I am not offering any ‘magic’ or ‘woo’.

I am offering a definable system of moving and breathing, that is all.

If you think I have offered ‘woo’ then please point it out or stop building that straw man.

My ashtanga yoga is physical exercise which has components that are not found together in any other system.

Hence there is reason to believe it may perform differently to any other kind of exercise and any other kind of ‘yoga’.

My website highlights the importance and superiority of modern medicine over yoga and old woo. You have no idea who you are talking to or what we are actually talking about.

You said ‘magic’ not me, so point out my ‘woo’ or stop being a troll.

Just an passing observation from a lurker:

The anti-vaccine conspiracy theories about the ‘money in vaccines’ is hogwash and anyone can realise that just by researching. All the info is there.

However,

It is hard to see how the following could not be seen as a boon to some experts and a threat to others:

Yoga does have therapeutic value, why deny it in such a troll-like fashion?
ABA is considered (by whom?) to be inhumane, ineffective, and a big money-spinner for the providers. When the J troll challenged it he got his head bitten off. Why?
Cannabis clearly has far more medical potential than you and the commentariat like to shout about and some comments echo old propaganda parrot-fashion as if it wasn’t all disproved in the last 20-something years.

May I suggest you take ‘cannabis for autism’ more seriously? It’s no joke, and if you cannot see that *all* of the alternatives out there are far, far worse, I can’t say you truly have a heart until you look at it from a fresh neutral perspective.

As for J trolls’ asperger diagnosis. It is real and it is a testament to his ‘treatment regime’ that you consider him to be something other.

@Ashtanga London

You want to yoga? I’ll yoga. But I yoga to WIN.

If you want to throw down on the foam mat, I’m game. But bring your A GAME. If you don’t, I’ll give you a yoga thrashing like you wouldn’t believe. You won’t be able to breathe for WEEKS. I don’t yoga with yosers (yoga posers).

Step up or shut up, the gauntlet has been thrown.

augustine:

Save your anecdote. ORAC said that, “in most children, it’s not that serious”. Stop portraying your exceptional case to be some sort of rule. The statistics don’t support you.

Actually, the case she described is not exceptional. It’s fairly typical. Notice that none of the children needed hospitalization. They were miserable, but they recovered at home. That’s a mild case. Most cases are like that — misery for a few days/weeks, then fine, but knowing you could get shingles later on.

My case was milder; I itched like the blazes, but that was about it. I passed it on to my brothers, who had it worse, and who passed it on to classmates, some of whom had it much worse, but would still be classed as “mild”.

A relative of mine got shingles a few years ago. She has no lingering pain, fortunately, and her eyesight returned in the affected eye. But she never regained function in the nerves on that side of her face, and is permanently disfigured as a result. I intend to get the shingles vaccine. I got chickenpox immunity the old fashioned way, but with few children getting it now, I want to refresh it the new-fangled way.

@ Neta: Excellent posting, however there are new recommendations about egg allergies and the administration of influenza vaccine. They are available at the ACIP site. There also is a complete explanation of ACIP’s recommendation which has been adopted by the CDC available on the Internal Medicine News website:

ACIP Recommends Flu Vaccine for Egg-Allergic Persons

Of course, flu vaccine is administered, just like every vaccine administered by qualified health care professionals who screen people for past allergies. According to the new recommendations, only the presence of hives (urticaria) after eating eggs is a contraindication for flu immunization.

Notice Lawrence, how I continue to post “around” the trolls’ remarks…I’m keeping the “pledge” to starve them…and so they don’t get their “jollies”. Please feel free to interpret the term “jollies” or check out the DSM IV under psycho-sexual disorders.

Actually, I think there’s room for different value judgments here. The evidence is clear – the chicken pox vaccine dramatically reduces deaths caused by chicken pox and likely (though this particular study didn’t go into it) reduces the number of people with severe and complicated cases of chicken pox. Combined with a shingles vaccine, one could (apparently) go ones entire life without either chicken pox or shingles without taking special precautions to avoid exposure. Note I use these terms in the same way most people do, and not as some who believe that an attenuated virus causing an asymptomatic infection is the same thing as a fully symptomatic case of the disease.

So – in the US maybe 100 lives saved per year, several thousand hospitalizations avoided per year, and perhaps millions who avoid a real illness. That’s what the science probably says.

Is that enough reason to perform mass immunizations? I tend to think so, but could see how someone might disagree. Just as someone could reasonably say “yes, I agree that banning substance x would reduce the number of deaths annually, I still don’t want to ban it,” one could reasonably say that the numbers for chicken pox don’t justify a mass immunization program without denying the potential benefits.

@Ashtanga L #74

Why yes, have it delivered ASAP, with a side order of on topic and find your own soapbox.

Just remembering my experience with chicken pox makes me wish the vaccine was around back then. It was a continuous bout of excrutiating itchy feeling, followed by scratching, followed by being scolded for scratching and not understanding why my mom was being so cruel, not letting me scratch.

I do remember parents deliberately infecting their kids with chicken pox in order to ensure they get it back then, but that seems like an absurd concept with the availability of vaccines with much less discomfort and chance of complications.

One thing that was interesting in the graph Orac shared in today’s post that I remarked upon in yesterday’s post was that the mortality rate had, after a brief peak, dropped for people in the 50+ age category as well.

Am I the only one who finds it an amusing coincidence that Orac and his “friend” have simultaneously been infested with off-topic spammers who really ought to start their own blogs instead of derailing every single comment thread with material of no relation to the original post?

That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

Here it is, remarkably similar:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science 🙂

That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

Here it is, remarkably similar:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science 🙂

That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

Here it is, remarkably similar:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science 🙂

That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

Here it is, remarkably similar:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science 🙂

That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

Here it is, remarkably similar:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science 🙂

That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

Here it is, remarkably similar:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science 🙂

That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

Here it is, remarkably similar:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science 🙂

That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

Here it is, remarkably similar:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science 🙂

That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

Here it is, remarkably similar:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science 🙂

That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

Here it is, remarkably similar:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science 🙂

That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

Here it is, remarkably similar:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science 🙂

That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

Here it is, remarkably similar:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science 🙂

Hey Offal: You’re confusing “Your” with “You’re”…I hate picky idiot trolls.

Offal you didn’t read the first part of Orac’s brilliant analysis:

Before the vaccine, approximately 4 million people developed chickenpox, with around 150,000 cases of complicated disease and around 14,000 hospitalized per year resulting in around 100 deaths per year.

Or perhaps you did read the article in its entirety, couldn’t comprehend it with your non-existent science background..and deliberately picked up a sentence later on where Orac inadvertently stated that the 100 deaths per year were childhood deaths…and that would be your contribution to the discussion? I hate picky typo-nitpicking idiot trolls.

It must be those two weeks between end of summer camp and school start. Augie, Thingy, Sid and Yoga all in the same thread, before 12 pm.

@augustine
#20

The general population has a 99.999999999999+% chance of NOT getting meningeosnufulufugus as complication of the childhood infection called chickenpox.

Fourteen 9s? I doubt there have even been 10^14 people. So even one occurrence would falsify your claim. Is your medical advice as bad as your math?

Ah. Yes. I’ve now “killed” the comments by the morons. My computer should run smoother without the “Troll Who Uses The Fallacies He Complains About”, the “Troll Who Thinks He’s A Virologist And A Writer But Gets Virology AND Grammar/Spelling/Punctuation Wrong”, and the “Troll Who Thinks Vaccines Cause Infectious Disease, Even The Acellular Vaccine”.

Less stupid, more good discussions. Awesome.

Thanks for the comment kill greasemonkey script, @Krebiozen.

Good. No more negative contributions from Krebiozen.

Ashtanga London,
The lymphatic system is part of the immune system and does help fight disease. This is well known.
It would not shock me (though I do not know) that physical activity affects the operation of the lymphatic system in the same sort of ways that it affects the circulatory system.
It is not clear to me whether ashtanga yoga improves or hinders the operation of the lymphatic system. Assuming it improves the operation of the lymphatic system, it’s not clear that it does this better than any other physical activity. Even if it improves the function of the lymph system better than all other know physical activity, it’s unclear that this provides a benefit to someone who does not currently have an infection of the lymphatic system, producing swollen lymph nodes.
Do you have data that says:
1. physical activity improves the operation of the lymphatic system in a way that provides a measurable benefit in the absence of infected lymph nodes?
2. ashtanga yoga in particular improves the operation of the lymphatic system in a way that provides measurable benefits?
3. that ashtanga yoga is in some way measurably better at providing these benefits (if any) than other physical activities?
Thanks.

@Mephistopheles O’Brien

One more thing to add: that it works better than other non-physical activities (by which I mean, activities in which the patient does not move around/exercise), such as massage, which also is purported to have effects on the lymphatic system.

A way to look at Ashtanga Yoga is that it is basically a Thai Massage which you do to yourself.

You get the exercise that the masseur would get while you lie there.
You also add the breathing, bandhas and drishti which are extra but probably not too relevant to they lymph issue (actually how do we know? I think the ujjayi breathing could affect a lot of things and the bandhas are core squeezes).

I’ve spent the last year experimenting with not doing much yoga and simulating my old job and I went back to having colds the way I used to. Back on the yoga thank god. I’d go into more detail but I don’t want to get knocked back after typing another 400 words.

I’d like to speak seriously for a second, if I may.

I used to be sickly and frequently have to take sick days until I discovered the fantastic healing qualities of Yoga-urt, which I coincidentally created and sell.

It’s miraculous properties when heated and eaten properly, perform the same miraculous healing benefits of many types of yoga, such as Ashtanga Yoga, without having to practice and learn how to yoga. It’s been anecdotally proven to drain lymphs even faster than Yoga-ing.

I’ve spent the last year experimenting with not doing much yoga and simulating my old job and I went back to having colds the way I used to.

There’s the most recent example of magical thinking. Anecdote is not evidence. Then there’s the wild speculation, apparently based on nothing, that your special kind of yoga helps “drain the lymph”. I didn’t use the term “woo”, but you’re certainly full of it.

Ok bye.

Dear Orac,

Your blog has been selected for Trolling.

We are trolling medical blogs as part of the drive to get cannabis removed from Schedule 1 in the UK and the USA.

You can help speed things up by telling your audience about the medical benefits of cannabis and debunking the myths.

Or you can carry on letting the trolls attempt to put it in your comments every day on every thread (until we can find a way to escalate the matter further).

I hope this clears up our position and your options?

Thank you for your time,
The G

The vaccine had NOTHING to do with the declining death rate. It was the introduction of modern sanitation and indoor plumbing to the USA that caused the decline.

Oh … I’ve already used that argument to disprove the 1960s measles vaccine?

Uh, it was Sun’s release of Java?

Orac, this has nothing to do w/ varicella, but I just found out that I went to high school w/ Lisa Handley, JB’s wife.
http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-4902-curing_jamie_handley.html
http://www.generationrescue.org/about/board-of-directors-2/
She was valedictorian, in a very competetive class. I can’t tell you how disturbing I find this.

@Melissa G

What would you have me do? I’ve put my money where my mouth is, so to speak, when it comes to my advocacy of free speech, letting even those who detest me and oppose everything I stand for comment almost unmoderated. I say “almost,” because even my extremely generous and free speech-oriented policy has been tried from time to time, such as when I was forced to ban the cannabis troll after he kept morphing into numerous sock puppets, something he still does from time to time. Indeed, today he appears to have figured out how to use a service to change his IP address, which admittedly makes cleaning up his obnoxious, inconsiderate, and idiotic sockpuppetry more difficult but certainly by no means impossible. Another time came recently, when I warned the yoga troll to stop flooding posts that had nothing to do with his pet obsession with comments about yoga. Overall, though, by and large I’ve tried very hard over the last six and a half years to take a hands-off approach to the comments, with only very uncommon exceptions.

One thing I sometimes do if a commenter floods the comments and thus annoys my other commenters is to create a filter that automatically sends that commenter to moderation. I then almost always approve every post, but moderating over-eager commenters who post so frequently that they drown out others serves the purpose of slowing down the spigot. They usually get the message eventually, and then I remove the moderation filter.

In any case, the price of my dedication to free speech and my lack of fear of attacks by advocates of pseudoscience like Sid Offit, augustine, and their ilk does have a downside. The question is: How do I minimize that downside without cracking down so much that I threaten the open and unfettered free-for-all in the comments that has been a feature of this blog since almost the very beginning.

@Orac– Actually, I think what you’re doing is the right way to handle things. The fact that your blog allows free speech while AoA’s is moderated to within an inch of its life is indicative of how highly we here value discourse and dissent and education! It was my lurking and reading the regulars demolishing the trolls that swung me over to the scientific side, after all.

I found in the comments where people were talking about Greasemonkey’s killfile, and I have installed it! Now I don’t have to read anyone I don’t feel like, but the fence-sitters in the audience still have the arguments to read. I think it’s a great solution to what is a problem for me but is probably not a problem for others.

Ashtanga:

There’s a thing called herd immunity. If the 98% of the population that doesn’t have a specific medical counterindication for the chicken pox vaccine all get immunized, that will break most of the chain of transmission. To catch chicken pox, a person has to be vulnerable (not immune) and has to be exposed to the virus.

That’s part of why we keep saying “get yourself and your kids vaccinated.” Your flu shot doesn’t just protect you, it protects your immuno-compromised neighbor and your friend’s child who is allergic to eggs and the person on the subway who can’t afford the flu shot. (Living in a civilised country, you may not realize this, but for a significant number of Americans, that’s $20 from an already tight budget.)

Vicki are you getting me confused with Augustine?

You’ve just told someone who is pro-vaccine a load of stuff he already knew.
I know about herd immunity (95% is needed for measles which is the highest).
Yes we would hope that herd immunity will protect the remaining few who are allergic.

Still we can do more to give the unvaccinated a better chance of fighting disease should it come their way.

That guy under the subway? I know him. I taught him yoga for free this morning.

And Larry, look at how many of those claims including the keywords “dismissal” or “insufficient proof of causation.”

ORAC: There’s free speech, and then there’s anarchy. Just lately, my fear as a long-time lurker has been that the same thing could happen here as did on my other favorite blog: the “derailers” degraded the exchange of knowledge/opinions until it was no longer worthwhile to go there, or at least to stay very long. It declined until any flow of ideas were lost in the mudslinging. There are signs of that kind of interference today with this ridiculous yoga crap.

I would suggest a clearly defined policy to protect the integrity of the blog against those rare few who don’t respect the very fair policy you set forth. Free speech would still be alive and well.

@lsm

You see, I predict your fucking ignorance before you even post.

Why don’t you climb right up the censors arse and lick it properly?

Orac censors things. However you want to dress it up as crimes of the troll, it is censorship.

Orac is bullshitting about his ‘free speech’ policy.

@Orac:
I think your holding pen solution is elegant. Maybe just apply it a little more readily.

@most others — trolls feed on attention. You’re not all in your first few months on the net, so you know this. Deny them their food source and they leave for other feeding grounds. Their few posts here would not take over comment threads if they were ignored. Conduct the adult discussion across the tantrum.

Orac:
Do keep up the good posting. I haven’t the style for it, but with my blog topic being climate, I have a lot of sympathy for your style.
@ashtanga
(I hope I’m not violating my own comment above …)
I haven’t read many of the comment replies, and maybe I’m just repeating something that’s been ineffective …

Sure, yoga is good. I’ve got friends who do it, and feel better for doing so. One thing you’re lacking, though, is anything beyond the bare anecdote.

In the same vein, I’ll also mention that running is good, walking is good, rowing, biking, swimming, weight lifting, kettlebells, tennis, and many others are also good. I know people who do those and feel better for it as well. I know of a number of research articles on running (my own preferred exercise) being good for you.

That’s kind of the issue for you here. When you talk about yoga’s goodness, folks here are looking for more than your bare story (no matter how emphatically you tell it) that it is — lots of exercises are good. If you’re claiming it’s good, they’re looking for you to present the evidence that not only it is good, but that it is better than alternatives.

The other thing, of course, commenters are looking for is for your comment to be relevant to the topic at hand. Yoga just isn’t relevant to chicken pox. A dozen of comments on yoga even less so.

@@
Digressing a second as the comment thread on the recent CR CAM post was completely derailed:
The business of calling strengthening, stretching, and massage ‘Alternative’ medicine is well-deserving of some large heaps of ever-so-Respectful insolence.

I’ve been through a few injuries the last few years, including a fairly mysterious calf problem, torn rotator cuffs (yes, plural), and breaking my wrist (which did require surgery). For all of them, physical therapy — stretching and strengthening were needed, massage as well for the calf problem. Nobody was saying anything about ‘alternative’ medicine in giving me the exercises or the reference for physical therapy. Perfectly ‘mundane’ medicine, that was quite effective. My wrist surgeon said that I’d recovered better/farther than she’d expected, and the physical therapy was the likely reason.

Christian Cynic and Mephistopheles O’Brien, as noted before, Larry has trouble actually reading and understanding the links he thinks are “proof.”

Orac, I thought you might be interested to hear that cracked.com is doing its best to teach the masses that vaccines are good for you (and antibacterial soap is bad!):

http://www.cracked.com/article_17084_5-ways-people-are-trying-to-save-world-that-dont-work.html?wa_user1=2&wa_user2=Weird+World&wa_user3=article&wa_user4=recommended

Peace!

Missed the sockpuppetry. It’s sad that he deliberately and knowingly chose the least effective means of communicating his alleged points, as well as being deliberately dishonest. It’s like he deliberately chooses to discredit the benefits of cannibis by acting like a childish, insane, and monomaniacal propagandist.

If you wanted your speech to be posted, Jacob, you should have found a thread where it’s on topic. You know, like a civilized, rational adult would.

attempts to engage [trolls] is “like trying to nail down Jello to a wall”

And as they say about wrestling pigs, it’s doubly futile because the Jello enjoys it.

What have you got against pot killing tumours Orac?

Doesn’t seem to have killed you. Perhaps you’re actually just an oozing cyst.

Vaccines do not cause autism

http://t.co/nSXEeuZ

Larry, correct. There is no real evidence that vaccines cause autism, and yes, Wakefield lied. And it was not proven through youtube links.

Vaccines cause autism

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=vaccines+cause+autism&aq=f

Totally ignores the health status of newborns because it’s cost effective.

http://mdm.sagepub.com/content/13/1/4.abstract

My kids had chicken pox back in the pre-vaccine days. It was horrible. My little girls screamed each time they had to urinate from the pox on their genitals. They didn’t want to eat because of the pox in their throats. They ran fevers. The itching was unbearable, to the point I had to pin socks over my 2 year olds hands so she couldn’t scratch. Benedryl and Tylenol did little to help. They survived without complications or even scars but it is not something any child should have to suffer with when a vaccine will prevent it.

Becky,
Really sorry to hear about your children’s suffering. So painful. I am certainly not
anti-vax but am for freedom of choice and education.
Do you feel you were pressured into not vaccinating? Parents have to be
comfortable in their choices because they are going to have to live with their
decisions. I would never tell anyone what to do.

@ Denice Walter

You wrote: “I have no need of a kill file.”

Well, I don’t, either–but I’m enjoying the use of one. Although I used to do as you do and simply scroll down to see if I wished to read a comment, the killfile script discussed here simply makes that action just a bit easier. If I encounter a post labeled, “Comment by Ashtanga London blocked,” I have the options of continuing to scroll down, unblocking that single post, or (perhaps temporarily) removing the author from the killfile. That would also apply to posts by, for example, augie, Th1Th2, or Jake, and to any others who seem to me to be analogous to drunks at the next table in a favored restaurant. I’m a guest here, and I can’t demand that the proprietor exclude people who have repeatedly acted in a way that I believe marks them as ignorant boors, but the killfile provides an option that is, I think, preferable to simply visiting less frequently.

I got chicken pox back in the day – and President Kennedy was assassinated the first day.
Don’t tell me it’s a mild illness.

Psorta psilly but nonetheless,

Hey Orac, how can psychcentral get away with this bad science reporting? I’d love to see you rip it apart, no-one does it better 🙂

http://psychcentral.com/lib/2010/adhd-and-marijuana/

Mephistopheles O’Brien gets +1 Internets for his chickenpox story.

Oh noes! Teh pox causes teh shootingz!!1!1

Venna:

I was under the impression, again this could be wrong since it came from the anti-vax world I was raised in, but I have heard it from others also, if you had chicken pox as a child, you couldn’t get shingles as it’s the same virus.

That seems to be a common misconception. You can get shingles because you actually had chicken pox. Like most herpes viruses it really does not go away. It really only goes dormant, only to reactivate when the immune system is compromised (like during times of stress).

It is thought that being around children who have chicken pox keeps the adult’s immune system activated against the herpes zoster (what the call the shingles/chicken pox virus). So with fewer children actually getting chicken pox, the vaccine is a good substitute.

My children will hopefully be among the last generation to be eligible for shingles since they had the disease the year before the vaccine was available. There is more information here:
http://www.cdc.gov/shingles/about/overview.html

Hi Venna: Chicken Pox A/K/A Varicella Zoster Virus is a form of herpes. Now you know herpes…oral, genital and chicken pox is “the gift that keeps on giving”. The varicella zoster virus because it is a type of herpes infection, stays dormant on the dorsal root ganglia of the peripheral nervous system and appears as shingles A/K/A herpes zoster.

There is a recently developed shingles (zoster) vaccine that has been approved by the FDA for those over fifty and the existing vaccine is recommended for ages sixty and over. It is protective for those who have had chicken pox to prevent the reactivation of the zoster virus.

I find your “case reporting” of your oldest child interesting. When my daughter was about four years old and all her friends were breaking out with the poxes, she had a very mild case of the poxes (about 6-8) and I considered myself fortunate that she didn’t have a serious case of chicken pox. Obviously, the few poxes did not provide her with immunity and a few years later she was blooming all over with full-on chicken poxes. You might consider this and suggest that your child when she next sees a doctor, request a titer for varicella zoster to confirm she has had the virus.

Weird, it shows my comment in the list on the left had side of this page, but it does not show up.

Shorter form: there are different kinds of herpes virus (like lilady says: “the gift that keeps on giving”), just like there are different kinds of influenza viruses.

Even if you had one type of influenza, it does not mean you are immune to another influenza virus. That also applies to the variations of herpes viruses.

Who gives a damn you must be kidding. Orac allows all sorts of trolls to post here. The only time he has moderated comments, after ample warnings, is when a troll dwells off-topic with dozens of postings or posters who use sock puppets. Here’s a hint for you; go visit Age of Autism to seek restrictive postings.

People with autism that I know and who post here are delighted with Orac’s blog because of his fine analyses of the issues associated with autism and his dissection of the bogus theories that are out in cyberspace.

Orac, a respective cancer surgeon and oncology researcher makes the time to lay out a veritable feast of science for us each day. You remind me of the free-loading uninvited guest who gobbles up the food then trashes the host. Stop being a troll, it it unseemly.

@ Venna: Cold sore are commonly called Herpes I and those “below the belt” are called Herpes II. Sometimes, with certain sexual practices, Herpes I and II show up in different places.

There are oral medications prescribed for both types and anti-viral salves in cream base that are also prescription medicines for cold sores. Most people feel a tingling or pain in the prodrome (asymptomatic) period and having the prescribed salve on hand. Just check the internet for “cold sores-antivirals” for the names of them. I have a friend who had a bad spell of multiple cold sores and swears by the prescribed salve because it lessened the size of the sore and shortened the outbreak time.

I didn’t know, until this post, that chicken pox and shingles were a herpes virus. I wonder how many other people don’t know. I wonder if the name was changed from chicken pox to herpes if parents would be so eager to have pox parties to expose their children to it. I mean, if someone had cold sores, you could want your child to become infected with that. Chicken pox is essentially the same thing. Perhaps a new awareness campaign should be launched to educate people to what it really is, because knowing that I think would steer a lot of people away from purposefully infecting their children with herpes virus. Just a thought.

All you really need to know is where to look, like here:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/shingles/default.htm

Where it says:

Anyone who has had chickenpox can develop shingles because VZV remains in the nerve cells of the body after the chickenpox infection clears and VZV can reappear years later causing shingles.

he censors anyone’s attempts to bring up treatment options that are safe and effective

Your unhinged off-topic rantings, persecution paranoia and perservating sock puppetry are not exactly a good advertisement for the safety and efficacy of your preferred “treatment option”.

What we are seeing on this blog is what happens when tax cuts lead to reduced infrastructure spending. Bridges fall into disrepair leaving trolls with nowhere to live. As a result they start infesting science blogs. Please won’t someone think of the trolls. Homeless trolls are everyone’s problem.

@Militant Agnostic:

I think part of the pot troll’s problem is that it was unable to get a supply of the right dose of the right strain.

So you are really showing lack of comprehension and ignorance of both psychiatry and pharmacology if you think his performance on this blog is a valid test.

Did you notice how many people said he wasn’t asperger’s? I guess if he really was asperger’s then we’ve all proved him right, in a way.

Orac, I think Jacob is sockpuppeting again.

I should look this up myself, but since I’m lazy I’ll ask:
Is it true, as I believe I have heard, that the chicken pox virus can remain “in the nerves” for decades and later cause trigeminal neuralgia?

Chris,

It is thought that being around children who have chicken pox keeps the adult’s immune system activated against the herpes zoster (what the call the shingles/chicken pox virus). So with fewer children actually getting chicken pox, the vaccine is a good substitute.

No stupid fool. Just like any other vaccine, the herpes vaccine is a second serving of VZV for herpes-loving people like you. Regardless of whether the adults are again exposed to VZV from wild or vaccine type, it will only lead to an infectious process. Hey dumbo, listen, children with active varicella infection do not protect, they infect. Geez. Also it is not the reason because there are fewer children getting chicken pox but instead on the contrary, every one year old children or so are deliberately infected with VZV which would qualify them for herpes later in life. Yup, you’ve created a batch of infected people, thanks to vaccine, who will eventually graduate with a diploma on Herpes. Hence, tada….the shingles vaccine for the blind!

Educate yourself and let go of your superstitious belief.

Venna,

Perhaps a new awareness campaign should be launched to educate people to what it really is, because knowing that I think would steer a lot of people away from purposefully infecting their children with herpes virus. Just a thought.

I’m sure you’re ignorant not knowing that shingles qualification also includes deliberate VZV vaccination you’re rigorously promoting among children.

@ Venna: Stay away (ignore) any and all postings from he/her/it whose name shall not be spoken. He/she/it is a one-trick pony with bizarre verbiage word salad and getting very frustrated that we are carrying on discussions while ignoring any troll postings.

Remember Rule # 14 Don’t feed the trolls.

Orac,

More evidence for the effectiveness of vaccines

How about giving your herd some hard evidence of the effectiveness of varicella vaccine in causing chicken pox and herpes?

Give your best shot.

Thingy must have written the Htrae dictionary.

As if we needed any more proof that the moron can’t read simple English.

Beamup,

As if we needed any more proof that the moron can’t read simple English.

Of course, idiots like you CAN read simple English. Now read this:

Epidemiol Infect. 2007 August; 135(6): 883–886.
Published online 2007 June 11. doi: 10.1017/S0950268807008849

The pathogenesis of zoster was unclear until the modern age, when it was shown, using molecular techniques, that exactly the same virus that caused the primary varicella-zoster virus (VZV) infection (either natural or from vaccine) causes zoster [1].

I couldn’t find my wallet this morning, so I searched the bedroom, the living room and the car.

Apparently the bedroom was both part of the living room and in the car. I did not know that.

Richard Smith,

I couldn’t find my wallet this morning, so I searched the bedroom, the living room and the car.
Apparently the bedroom was both part of the living room and in the car. I did not know that.

Haha. As usual, Rule #2, analogies to the rescue. Why not, they can’t argue with straight Science so they need an escape mechanism. But here’s something that confirms your sheer ignorance.

Herpes Zoster Ophthalmicus
Natural History, Risk Factors, Clinical Presentation,
and Morbidity

Thomas J. Liesegang, MD

Herpes zoster is the second clinical manifestation of VZV infection and occurs only in individuals who have had primary VZV infection (varicella) by either wild-type or vaccine-type VZV.

Damn infection-promoters! Shame on all vaccinators!

Todd W.,

Ooh! Time for a grammar lesson. Th1Th2, please tell me the difference in meaning between these two sentences (look closely at the punctuation):

The gist of the argument is that Rene created an ambiguity in his assertion where he cannot prove it:

1) Cytotoxicity during primary VZV infection, [So? Where did the infectious VZV come from?]
2) Cytotoxicity in naturally immune subjects [caused by wild-type VZV]
3) Cytotoxicity after vaccination. [caused by vaccine-type VZV]

I did not know that grammar was one of the sciences. Not only that, but when the argument itself is poorly constructed, there’s no sense in addressing the science until a sensible argument is made.

Analogies are useful when communicating with people for whom facts are far over their head. Especially when even their large intestine is over their head.

There is a reason I claim Thingy lives on Htrae.

To sum up: in the abstract of a publication, the authors followed normal comma usage (“[1], [2] and [3]”) rather than the Oxford comma usage (“[1], [2], and [3]”).

Someone cites this as evidence that [2] and [3] belong together, as if — against all reason — the authors have asserted them to be identical.
One can always check the text of the publication, and of course this turns out not to be what the authors mean…

Rene,

Notice the OR in the statement. You CAN get a PRIMARY (initial, first, never before until now) infection with either A) the wild-type virus or B) the vaccine-type virus.

Oh the stupidity. It’s “OR” because you cannot vaccinate a person, primarily, with active natural varicella infection….(Remember acute primary VZV infection?)

People with compromised immune systems know “B” to be true with regards to the attenuated viruses of any vaccines. However, your immune system has to be really, really compromised.

…nor someone with compromised immune system. That’s barbarism. But hey, since vaccinators are modern-day barbarians, they will still proceed in promoting primary varicella infection, regardless of individual risks because telling them that it’s just “priming” would sound good in the ears of ignorant parents when in reality, in means primary varicella infection.

The rest of the world only has to worry about A) the wild-type virus. For that, there is a vaccine.

A vaccine you’re promoting to make people qualify for herpes. Nice one.

As a result, you can have an infection with either A) the wild-type virus OR B) the vaccine-type, but not both.

You’re just repeating the same nonsense. Anyway have you ever heard of re-infection with VZV despite having been naturally immuned or vaccinated?

Listen, folks, English is my second language, and I’m getting tired of giving this troll so many lessons in usage of the language. Is there any way we can find out his address to send him the Elements of Style or some such?

Trans: I love herpes and I promote it. That’s English.

Rene,

1) Cytotoxicity during [acute] primary VZV infection, [So? Where did the infectious VZV come from?]{It came from unvaccinated individuals with an active infection.}

Idiot. That would be number 2. It’s clear you’re ignorant about immunology when infection-induced cytotoxicity is elicited during the acute phase of the infection. That’s so disingenuous of you to delete “acute” from the original post.

2) Cytotoxicity in naturally immune subjects [caused by wild-type VZV]{These are subjects who have since recovered from the infection. This is not during the infection. It is after the infection.}

If this after the infection, then cytotoxicity is irrelevant. HMI would then be assessed. This means the naturally immuned subjects are the ones with active primary wild-type varicella infection.

3) Cytotoxicity after vaccination. [caused by vaccine-type VZV]{This is not during an infection because there is none. This is not after an infection because there was none. These subjects are perfectly healthy subjects who were vaccinated.}

Indeed, you are a germ-denialist. Worse, you even deny cytotoxic response.

A little friendly* advice, Thingy—you’re talking to no-one but yourself with this nonsense, because no-one else here accepts your idiosyncratic definition of the word “infection” as: “anything to which the attention of your immune system has been called.”

So if you have multiple sclerosis, have you been “infected” with myelin? If you have lupus erythematosus, have you been “infected” with collagen? If you have rheumatoid arthritis, have you been “infected” with synovial cartilage? I’ve got some news for you, Thingy—by your definition, you’ve been “infected” with tens of millions of different things in your lifetime. Better hide under the bed!

*Not intended to be a factual statement.

Rev,

A little friendly* advice, Thingy—you’re talking to no-one but yourself with this nonsense, because no-one else here accepts your idiosyncratic definition of the word “infection” as: “anything to which the attention of your immune system has been called.”

Infection applies to pathogens or disease-causing microorganisms. Now, take another look at your inane examples as to why educated people would not call them infections. Neither do I.

Got more fairytale examples?

Now that I don’t hear anymore grunting and squealing from these Science-deprived creatures, it only means they are full.

It’s amazing how Science can solve world hunger.

Till next time.

Oh, I’m sorry? Is someone writing about infections without really knowing the true definition of the word?

Just because you call something an infection doesn’t make it so, herpes-lesion.

(See what I did there?)

Back to Orac’s original…

I’ve seen children hospitalised with varicella. I’ve felt helpless as one died in spite of everything we could do.

The vaccine isn’t (yet) on the schedule here. When it is, I’ll be one of its greatest supporters. Anything that will prevent such distress and agony is worth it.

For anyone that’s confused about the experiment that the troll is misrepresenting, here is a summary in layman’s terms of what they did.

Thank you, WKV! That clarifies a great deal, and as a side bonus, it does show how silly Goofus is when it insists that this abstract means all three groups are identical.

Gah! I garbled the bit about CTL. I should know better than to post when I’m that tired. CTL are cytotoxic T-lymphocytes, aka killer T-cells, that kill off infected cells. After infection is resolved, most die off, but some are retained as memory cells, which are capable of quickly differentiating back into active CTL when a new infection is detected.

Here’s the portion of the abstract most relevant to CTL:

CD4+ CTL may function as an important primary host response in acute varicella. Immunization with live attenuated varicella vaccine induced VZV-specific, memory CTL responses comparable to those of naturally immune subjects. The demonstration of their persistence long after primary VZV infection may indicate a role for CTL in restriction of viral replication during episodes of VZV reactivation from latency.

@Thing

Still waiting for your answer as to the difference between the two statements. You asserted that “during acute primary VZV infection, in naturally immune subjects and after vaccination with the live attenuated varicella vaccine” meant that vaccination caused acute primary VZV infection, but that is not at all what the paper stated. You messed up on your reading comprehension because you did not understand the structure of the sentence. So, again, tell me the difference in meaning between these two:

Varicella-zoster virus (VZV) specific cytotoxicity was investigated during acute primary VZV infection, in naturally immune subjects and after vaccination with the live attenuated varicella vaccine by using T cell cultures (TCC) generated by stimulating PBMC with VZV Ag and autologous VZV-superinfected lymphoblastoid cell lines as targets.

and

Varicella-zoster virus (VZV) specific cytotoxicity was investigated during acute primary VZV infection, in naturally immune subjects and after vaccination with the live attenuated varicella vaccine, by using T cell cultures (TCC) generated by stimulating PBMC with VZV Ag and autologous VZV-superinfected lymphoblastoid cell lines as targets.

@Rene 220

Mr. Vicklund, thanks for that. If I understand correctly, that study and others are clarifying the misconception that the vaccine causes shingles directly, or primarily. In other words, the live attenuated virus (LAV) doesn’t somehow reactivate later and cause shingles.

Not exactly. What it is testing for is whether the chickenpox vaccine will provide long-lasting protection against itself. Remember, this was back in 1989, when there was still a reasonable debate about whether to make the varicella vaccine part of the childhood schedule. One of the legitimate concerns was that it would provide protection from wild-type primary infection, but not from reactivation – the killer cells responding to the vaccination would not be able to target the types of cells that harbor latent VZV infection. This experiment provides evidence that they can, and that the protection is long-lasting. It’s a consideration that most vaccines don’t have to take into account.

You can get shingles from the vaccine. That said, the incidence rate for shingles after vaccination is about 1/3 to 1/4 that of the wild-type incidence rate, the cases of shingles are much milder, and when DNA samples are taken, it is often wild-type virus that is actually causing the shingles (which means that the vaccine was only partially effective). Note that since the “due diligence” method the troll promotes has a failure rate of 90%+, the odds that a person will experience shingles more than doubles if they don’t vaccinate and live where VZV is endemic, and are many times more likely to experience a severe case.

Kevin,

For anyone that’s confused about the experiment that the troll is misrepresenting, here is a summary in layman’s terms of what they did.

Layman’s terms? Then read #189 and #193.

Rene,

If I understand correctly, that study and others are clarifying the misconception that the vaccine causes shingles directly, or primarily. In other words, the live attenuated virus (LAV) doesn’t somehow reactivate later and cause shingles.

Hahaha. I can smell the fear. Unfortunately sir, you’re carrying the indelible evidence of the virus. Sorry but you can always pray.

How fortunate are the unvaccinated and the uninfected.

Of course, once enough are unvaccinated, everyone will get infected.

Sorry but you can always pray.

Yes, that will be your only recourse to try and stay uninfected once you’ve talked enough people into staying unvaccinated. Good luck!

Todd W.,

meant that vaccination caused acute primary VZV infection,

Again, it’s a fact. Both the wild-type and the vaccine-type VZV cause primary VZV infection and shingles. Read 189 and 193. Sorry bad news for you and for your herd.

How fortunate are the unvaccinated and the uninfected.

Fortunate? They can never travel abroad, will never see the sun rise over the Nile, trek through the Thar Desert on camel back, or browse in a Moroccan souk, unless they either risk their lives or get vaccinated. They can’t travel by public transport or by airplane. They have to run, holding their breath, from the room if anyone coughs or sneezes. They have to live in constant fear of a return of diseases like measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox etc., that are extremely unpleasant or even life-threatening for adults. Fortunate my ass!

Kevin,

What it is testing for is whether the chickenpox vaccine will provide long-lasting protection against itself.

Wha…wha…whaaat? So you gave them the virus and you’re also against the virus that you just gave. No wonder vaccination is a form of immunological masochism.

One of the legitimate concerns was that it would provide protection from wild-type primary infection, but not from reactivation – the killer cells responding to the vaccination would not be able to target the types of cells that harbor latent VZV infection.

Varicella vaccination would not prevent wild-type infection and latency because by the time the naive have acquired the vaccine virus, primary infection would set in, followed by latency and reactivation (caused by the vaccine-type VZV.)

This experiment provides evidence that they can, and that the protection is long-lasting. It’s a consideration that most vaccines don’t have to take into account.

Of course, because the vaccinated are sleeping with the enemy. They carry the virus that you’re promoting.

You can get shingles from the vaccine.

I wonder why the unvaccinated and uninfected can’t get shingles. Hmmm…must be…

That said, the incidence rate for shingles after vaccination is about 1/3 to 1/4 that of the wild-type incidence rate, the cases of shingles are much milder, and when DNA samples are taken, it is often wild-type virus that is actually causing the shingles (which means that the vaccine was only partially effective).

Liar. Here’s some Science dude:

Epidemiol Infect. 2007 August; 135(6): 883–886.
Published online 2007 June 11. doi: 10.1017/S0950268807008849

The only explanation can be that zoster is due to reactivation of latent virus acquired during the primary infection. It is not caused by reinfection with VZV.

Now stop barking up the wrong tree. You got the squirrel in your own backyard.

Note that since the “due diligence” method the troll promotes has a failure rate of 90%+, the odds that a person will experience shingles more than doubles if they don’t vaccinate and live where VZV is endemic, and are many times more likely to experience a severe case.

The unvaccinated and uninfected don’t qualify for shingles. We don’t have that you have…the squirrel. Sorry. Try again.

The unvaccinated and uninfected don’t qualify for shingles. We don’t have that you have…the squirrel. Sorry. Try again.

Again with the freakin’ squirrels! Listen closely, Thingy:

If. Enough. People. Fail. To. Get. Vaccinated. YOU. WILL. BE. INFECTED.

End of story.

Rev,

Again with the freakin’ squirrels! Listen closely, Thingy:
If. Enough. People. Fail. To. Get. Vaccinated. YOU. WILL. BE. INFECTED.
End of story.

You’re an infection promoter; that’s your job.

You’re an infection promoter; that’s your job.

That’s some weapons-grade projection there, you imbecile.

@ The Very Reverend: If you analyze the fool’s statements such as:

“You’re an infection promoter; that’s your job.” and compare them to Ugh Troll’s, you will come to the conclusion that Thingy is the sock puppet of the Ugh Troll.

Thingy comes “out to play” when Ugh Troll does his frequent disappearing acts…usually when Ugh troll is queried about his education and gainful employment.

Thingy/Ugh Troll will always offer support to other resident trolls who post here, but never supportive of each other’s postings…simpleton mind power at work…to think that throws us off the trail.

Why am I even replying to the vile germ ridden, herpes zoster harboring Thingy…I feel dirty even looking at my laptop screen at the Thing’s postings. I have to “terminally disinfect” the laptop now.

Stupid spammer is still stupid.

If you should ever find yourself lucky enough to go on a paradise yoga holiday, I urge you to get all the important vaccines. If for no other reason than they won’t let your kids attend the local nursery without them 😉

As for Malaria tablets, yuk. I’ll take my chances with the mozzies (fine in Mysore or Koh Samui, don’t try try this in the Congo).

This school (which I don’t work at) teaches woo-free yoga and Sanskrit : http://kpjayi.org/

Chris@61
There are people like my sister and I who both had shingles for the first time,in our thirties.I’ve seen people here who have gotten it in their twenties.

The younger you are the more relapses you get of it.I would say that it should be optional to people starting at college age.

Chris, an old girlfriend of mine had shingles in her teens. She still has shingle scars on her head near her right temple.

*Raises hand* I’m one of the twenty-somethings that had shingles. Mine manifested as a case of Bell’s Palsy. One of the worst weeks of my life.

tielserrath,

Just a question (too much trolling upstream to search through; I’m at work and therefore no killfile), Are humans the only vector for these viruses? What’s the chance of eradication?

Hey let me tell you something. This is not the right time to ask questions. Can’t you see they are in ignore mode and currently in a state of shock and disbelief of course this is after an ignominous defeat. So if I were you I’ll give your friends sometime to recover. Although I’m not optimistic they will recover.

@tielserrath

AFAIK, I think that the varicella virus can also be carried by other primates, such as chimpanzees, orangutangs, and gorillas.

Life is too short to conduct forensic textual analysis on comments just to tell if they’re coming from one annoying person or two.

Oh, I have no intention of doing so. But those circuits ring all by themselves after thousands and thousands of pages.

Yeah, I’ve known about that for years. You’re basically creating super-bacteria.

Well, that’s only part of how antimicrobial soaps are apparently having deleterious effects in primary usage. Even if they weren’t exerting a selection pressure that encouraged the evolution of resistant strains, there’s indicators that they may be also damaging an already-existing defense against foreign bacteria.

This thread is done. The damage, unfortunately, is irreparable. I’ll go over at the SBM where my mythbusting continues and I’m expecting the same fate.

Poor RI.

On SBM she is claiming victory over RI, yet the only responses are reminders that she is a boring troll that should be ignored.

@Chris

You have to admit, th1th2 delusional thinking and massive projection issues are worth a little chuckle, just to see how extreme to the Dunning-Kreuger curve she falls.

I honestly don’t think Augie and Thingy are the same person. Thingy is more obviously suffering from some psychological disorder, and probably isn’t American—at least English seems to be a second (or fifth) language for her. I suppose her deficit could be so profound it just seems that way.

Augie is quite obviously an American, of a rather nasty right-wing Christianist type that would be fairly typical, except he’s chosen to identify with a movement that’s usually (rightly or wrongly) identified with the opposite end of the political spectrum. I suspect any signs of disordered thinking in his oeuvre are simply attempts to keep the cognitive dissonance from melting his brain.

..I read your article with great interest..I would like to understand how did you come to such ”comprehensive information” on this comprehensive site? Now what I would like to point out to you,which you might have missed,due to overwhelming data,when it comes to research,is one very obvious flaw in your posted article …If Varicella virus is not mild ,but truly dangerous & deadly..why is it then,that Varricella( CHicken pox) vaccine was never to this day part of UK’s vaccination shedule? This is interesting fact,that people in UK don’t need to be vaccinated,but people in the US (not sure about other countries),have mandatory Varicella vaccination??!…Now this brings me to my own conclusion-people in US must have different genetic makeup, to people in UK?..Now what about the rest of the world,it seems each country has got very different vaccination schedule…So what is very obvious here from this site,that person who wrote the article has not done their homework properly..Claiming Varicella being deadly in US..but mild enough in UK ( not used here) is very interesting fact indeed!..now I would like to scrutinize all vaccines & their schedules around the world..lets see what we”ll find..if this is science we need to rely on then I say..no thank you!

@ Sylvia: I suggest you visit the U.K.’s equivalent of the CDC’s website, to ascertain the policy for not implementing varicella vaccine as a recommended childhood vaccine. We have many posters here from outside the United States…from Europe, the U.K., Canada, Australia and New Zealand…to name just a few.

The CDC has the ACIP (Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices) with a huge number of experts on the actual committee as well as “advisors” who sit in on each quarterly meeting. The original recommendations for licensing for use and implementing their recommendations are available on their website, as well as all updated recommendations. Because the United States Public Health Departments (County and State) are all computerized any outbreak of vaccine-preventable diseases is reported quickly to the local health department and outbreaks of a serious nature such as measles within local jurisdictions or multi-state are immediately fully investigated and reported to the CDC, via the “Epi Info” computerized program. BTW laboratories, treating physicians, hospital staff are required to report to the health departments evidence of an infectious disease.

As vaccine preventable diseases approach extinction (polio and now measles) they have the highest priority for reporting.

Localities, State Health Departments and the CDC have the ability to determine the true efficacy of the newer vaccines, once they are used widely, post licensing field testing. Any episodes of breakthrough with one shot, may be cause to re-visit the one shot for life dosage…hence the recommendation to increase measles vaccine to a two dose series and the recent recommendation to switch from one dose to the two dose series for varicella immunization.

I hope you followed Stuart G,’s comment that Chris provided you and that you find comparable agencies in the U.K. that determine which childhood vaccines are “recommended”…which are not…and the reasons behind those decisions.

Well nourished children in Western countries are not more susceptible to childhood disease and their potential serious consequences and there are no “genetic” gene differences between kids in the U.S. and the U.K. to account for any increased risk to children who are not immunized.

I can also vouch for the fact that varicella is no milder in the UK than anywhere else. A fit and healthy young colleague of mine contracted chicken pox, having somehow avoided getting it as a child, and was very ill indeed. He was off work for 3 months. There are about 30 deaths every year in the UK from chicken pox, mostly in adults.

There are several reasons the varicella vaccine is not yet routinely used in the UK, mostly related to cost. Cost of the vaccine in children, the expected increase in shingles in older people which would lead to demand for a vaccine in those older people, which would lead to even more cost. Remember all this would have to come out of the public purse, which is not exactly full at present. BTW, from what I have seen, it is not strange at all to fear shingles – it doesn’t look very alluring to me!

I’m sure UK policy makers are watching to see what happens in the US. Sooner or later I hope and expect the varicella vaccine to become part of the routine vaccination schedule in the UK.

Oh no, animal DNA in vaccines? What’s the problem Silvia? Scared of homologous recombinaltion tiniker?

No chronic and degenerative diseases fifty years ago? Maybe your parents and grandparents were in great health all their lives, but plenty of other people were living with things like multiple sclerosis, epilepsy, and heart problems. I can’t speak to the UK experience, but in the U.S. it’s not that we have more disabled kids than we used to: it’s that we don’t lock them up in institutions, they’re out and about, in school and on playgrounds and so on. That can look like “more degenerative diseases,” but it’s not.

If you’re that worried about what your kids are eating, start a garden so you can give them food without the herbicides you’re worried about, and you can easily find a list of what they’d have gotten via rationing in 1946 or so. There is no law requiring you to go to the chip shop, or feed your kids Ribena or Coke or any of that stuff.

You might also want to think about why my cat, in New York, is legally required to have a rabies vaccine, and my friend Maureen’s cat, in Kent, isn’t.

..If Varicella virus is not mild ,but truly dangerous & deadly..why is it then,that Varricella( CHicken pox) vaccine was never to this day part of UK’s vaccination shedule?

Don’t expect Orac to respond to your query. He has since been hiding in latency. This thread died ages ago. Also, do your homework before posting questions because ignorant questions like that attract ignorant people.

Silvia:

The fact- kids are not well nourished –simply because they eat mostly junk, nutritionally depleted food. They are less fit than generation was 50 years ago-physically& nutritionally…yes people did’t have as much 50 years ago,but they didn’t eat so much of processed,irradiated & GM food, food laden with pesticides & herbicides,therefore they were much fitter with no chronic & degenerative disease..

It is a myth that children are generally undernourished in America today, with the exception of children in extreme poverty* and children who are being abused, who don’t get much to eat. They are getting enough of all the basic nutrients. The problem is that they’re getting too many of other things (e.g. calories, cholesterol, carbs, protein) and not nearly enough exercise.

It is also a myth that kids fifty years ago didn’t eat”processed,irradiated & GM food, food laden with pesticides & herbicides”. Okay, maybe not much irradiated food, and the GM food was GM by the traditional method of selective breeding. But processed? Oh, my heavens yes. Ever seen a cookbook from this period? Pesticides and herbicides? Definitely. Fifty years ago was the 1960s, and pesticides were used much more indiscriminately than they are today.

Kids definitely are less fit today, but I think the real culprit is our lack of exercise. We sit almost all the time now, and we do that to our kids too. In 1960, you might have half a dozen channels to choose from in a large market. Today, it’s hundreds. And we’re bored by most of them. We have huge DVD libraries, Netflix, On Demand, and also, of course, the Internet. Same thing we’re using here while we sit on our duffs and wonder why our kids are getting fat.

That’s also probably a large part of why asthma, diabetes, and heart disease rates have gone up — lack of exercise is a significant risk factor for all three.

* And there are more of these than most people realize. I fear that the current anti-obesity campaigns in school districts may be lethal to some of these kids, who currently get the majority of their nutrition through subsidized or free school lunches. If I had to pick, I’d rather have fat kids than starving kids, after all, but it’s not an easy thing to apply to a school lunch program.

@ Calli Arcale: Sylvia is a thick as a plank. Try asking “Plank” for some citations…then the fun and games will begin.

I suspect the problem that leads to so many alties pining for the old utopias of the past is that they never really paid attention to their elders, in addition to ignoring the historical data.

I remember back when I was a kid, reading the Adventures of Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn, as well as some of my grandmother’s other Mark Twain books, how much disease came up as a topic.

My grandmother grew up during The Great Depression, and she saw the face of disease throughout much of her life. She took college biology, so she understood what was going on, and she was also a geneology buff with some publications about local families, so she knew about children dying from preventable diseases, and she knew about “off” children ending up institutionalized, out of public view. It probably didn’t help that “blame the mother” was often the public’s null hypothesis when it came to psychological oddities.

Life was much harsher than it’s depicted in the movies. When I read trolls wishing for the “good old days,” it seems like they believe health is taken for granted, like in movies, where no one gets sick unless the plot says so.

Lack of neurological problems? Well, I’m pretty confident that there’s a genetic side: I have Aspergers (diagnosed just last year, as an adult). It’s not an official diagnosis, but we’re convinced my dad has it as well: We’re quite similar in our behavior and modes of thought, and my mother had to give me a lot of the same social lessons she gave to my dad.

@triskelethecat,
Don’t know if it’s true but it’s common wisdom that the ration diet was the healthiest diet that Brits have had, maybe ever. What was rationed? Fat, sugar, bread (briefly postwar), white flour, dairy, meat, bacon, imported fruit. What was not? Domestic fruit and veg, fish (though during the war am not sure how much fish was coming in.) At the same time, since food was distributed according to ration points rather than bought for money, poor Britons may have had increased access to meat and dairy. I’m sorry though, I cannot dig up a decent cite. I’ll have to go back through my copy of Austerity Britain to see if there are any references in there.