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When anti-vaccine loons make videos…

…the results aren’t pretty.

If there’s one thing about anti-vaccine loons that I’ve come to learn over the last decade or so, it’s that when they think they’re being clever, they’re really not. Exhibit A for this case follows:

Yes, courtesy of a particularly brain dead anti-vaccine website (and, compared to Age of Autism, that’s saying something), all we have in the video above is a rewarmed “toxins gambit.” How to find toxins in 5 seconds or less? It’s more like how to find toxic ignorance in five seconds or less. The guy who came up with is video is probably terrified of salt because it contains chloride ions. (It’s chlorine, don’t you know, and chlorine is toxic!)

Where did I find this gem of pure stupidity? Sadly, it was from a physician, namely Dr. Mayer Eisenstein, who runs the woo-filled and virulently anti-vaccine HomeFirst medical practice in the Chicago area. He’s another one who thinks he’s being clever but ends up looking really, really dumb. Don’t believe me?

Then check out this video:

“I see cancer particles?” What the heck is he talking about? Who knows? he is, however, giving pirates a bad name. In any case, there are a whole bunch of other links to videos on the page; I’ll have to save them for a slow blogging day. They are most definitely what I like to call a “target-rich” environment. So is the Vaccine Truth website; so I guess I have to thank Dr. Eisenstein for insuring that I don’t run out of blogging material any time soon.

I won’t be buying his new anti-vaccine book advocating misinformed consent any time soon, though, even though debunking all the lies in it would provide me with weeks worth of blogging material. I do have limits, you know. After all, I never managed to make it through the Suzanne Somers book. How on earth would I make it through Dr. Eisenstein’s book?

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

118 replies on “When anti-vaccine loons make videos…”

Why is the video 1:45? I thought it was five seconds or less, Dr. Eisenstein! Come on, you can do better than that! Type faster!

I saw sucrose on the list. OMFG! Sucrose – it’s deadly stuff. It’s responsible for an endless amount of morbidity and mortality! I say “Keep the death-dealing sucrose out of our vaccines!” You wouldn’t feed sucrose to your children, would you – Oh, wait a minute. Never mind.

If I had seen the second video without any background info I might have thought it an ironic take on the stupidity of the anti-vaccine movement by someone pro-vaccines. Alas…

My guess is that’s how long it took the author of the video to count to 5, he had to start over several times, and at the end he had to write out his work, but in the end he finally got there.

Sadly, it’s not likely you can turn to your doctor for help with this decision either. Many doctors have staked their reputations and their financial well-being on the assumed safety and effectiveness of vaccines. They are bound by their profession to promote vaccinations and that is what they do.

http://www.thesciencenews.info

In addition to the dim-wittedness of Baric’s post, there’s the uselessness of his link, which doesn’t point to anything relevant to Orac’s posting.

Meanwhile, in Dr. Eisenstein’s second video above, he claims that out of 35,000 kids seen by his practice (him and 9 partners), none are vaccinated and none are autistic. I could maybe believe the first claim, but I have very severe doubts about the second.

Wow, that’s all I can say…

Hey Orac! You may already be aware of this but I only learned about it today. It would seem Dr. Tony Attwood and Dr. Isabelle Hénault have ‘discovered’ a new disorder that affects care givers of people with autism. Cassandra Affective Deprivation Disorder (CADD) which is essentially giving anyone who cares for a person with autism, permission to blame all their problems on the person with autism.

This, I think, is quackery at it’s worst. Giving a label people can use without any evidence, research or scientific studies proving this is real. People with autism already have enough to deal with, bullying, disrespect, non acceptance, we don’t need to add to their burden by giving an excuse to blame them for what’s wrong with other people. If this isn’t something people know about, it’s time to spread the word and stop these people until they do the research and run the studies proving their case. If it can’t be proved, they need to drop it and stop promoting it. What say you?

I see someone who, by not taking vaccines, has apparently come down with some kind of brain numbing disease.

“Dr. Einstein the Pirate See’s Vaccine Damage Ahead.”

Abuse of apostrophes makes Rgal SMASH!

Unless he’s blaming the candy company, of course.

Doesn’t exactly live up to his namesake, does he?

They are bound by their profession to promote vaccinations and that is what they do.

They are so far the leading infection promoters; that is their job.

It would seem Dr. Tony Attwood and Dr. Isabelle Hénault have ‘discovered’ a new disorder that affects care givers of people with autism.

Tony has always been one of the good guys. Could be that his thoughts about Aston’s “Affective Deprivation Disorder” have been distorted or exaggerated by the media or the internet (where people are sometimes wrong).

“Dr. Einstein the Pirate See’s Vaccine Damage Ahead.”
Abuse of apostrophes makes Rgal SMASH!

“The Pirate See” conjures up mental images of buccaneering Bishops.

Awww… How cute! Thingy is trying to revive the “vaccines=infection” debate he was beaten mercilessly at in other postings. I’d jump in, but he uses the wrong definition of “infection” to begin with, making any kind of debate utterly useless. Also, his English skills are such that he will undoubtedly misread anything and everything posted at him.

There are times I am glad I can’t access videos at work. That inappropriate apostrophe is the FIRST thing I saw looking at the video and it would immediately turn me off any professional practice that would send out something like that. I DO expect my doctors to be able to read and write at better than a 3rd grade level… (errors happen, I know, but I can’t believe it wasn’t caught by ANYONE involved in the production of the video)

This video makes the antivaxxers look so bad that it kind of makes my day. 🙂 While it may make the entrenched kooks cheer, it is likely to turn the fence-sitters well away.

Rene,

Awww… How cute! Thingy is trying to revive the “vaccines=infection” debate he was beaten mercilessly at in other postings.

Which particular posts are you referring to? Please guide them.

Th1Th2, you may be shocked to hear this, but your claiming something does not automatically make it true. Likewise, ignoring something does not make it cease to exist. You may have declared victory on recent threads, but it’s pretty clear anyone reading you will see you as ignorant and dishonest. Case in point, this page, where you were caught insisting a child’s death was iatrogenic without bothering to learn the details of the case.

Gray,

Case in point, this page, where you were caught insisting a child’s death was iatrogenic without bothering to learn the details of the case.

Everything was iatrogenic including the misdiagnosis of her case. In case you’re ignorant about ECMO, read post #111.

BTW, if someone has ALL the details regarding the cause of death then fill this up:

1. Immediate cause:
2. Antecedent cause:
3. Underlying cause:

Th1Th2, it’s not up to us to prove you wrong, it’s up to you to prove yourself right. How can you not comprehend such a simple principle?

Orac, you don’t have to buy his book to review this turd’s career. He is “profiled” in a Chicago Tribune article and he has a scandalous past…replete with botched home deliveries, a clinic that does Lupron therapy on children with autism and has been sued often for the birth injuries and deaths of newborns whose parents opted for home delivery attended by staff at his “clinic”. He also lied about his faculty appointment credentials, had inadequate (fraudulent) malpractice insurance and then declared bankruptcy to avoid judgments. The whole sordid mess is available on the web:

Autism doctor: Troubling record trails doctor treating autism (Patricia Callahan, Trine Tsouderos – Chicago Tribune, May 22, 2009)

I suspect it is time for Callahan and Tsouderos to update their story on this dangerous quack snake oil salesman and his crew at his clinics.

Ignore the nasty delusional Thingy troll; he/she/it uses the death of an infant from pertussis to advance his/her/its sick, sick, sick agenda. He/she/it needs to be terminally disinfected.

Off topic:

An MD gets spanked for promoting quack detox:

http://forums.whyweprotest.net/threads/narconon-scientology-physician.91830/#post-1838158

College des Medecins du Quebec:

“…we conclude that Dr. [redacted] had been in breach of several of his ethical obligations by associating himself with a drug detoxification centre administering treatment not scientifically recognized in the current medical literature…”

Send the College des Medecins du Quebec some love, people!

@lilady

You mean I can’t trust a pirate doctor on youtube to tell me the truth about cancer particles? Cancertrons I believe they are called. What is the world coming to?

“Dr. Einstein the Pirate See’s Vaccine Damage Ahead.”
“The Pirate See” conjures up mental images of buccaneering Bishops.

Also, “Primates of the Caribbean”.

I personally found the video to be very informative. Persons who are highly sensitive to things such as milk and eggs might also find this video extremely beneficial. As patients, we rely on Doctors to fully inform us of the risks or possible side effects of vaccination. However, many of us find ourselves in a vulnerable state not having been truly informed. Parents shouldn’t have to spend tireless hours researching the potential side effects or ingredients of vaccines. The information should be readily available to parents as it is with any other drug.

I also find it contradictory that Doctors advise against feeding infants specific foods as a precaution against allergic triggers, yet they willfully expose our infants to allergen triggers via vaccines.

Thank goodness there are websites dedicated to ENSURING access to information that could affect the health of our loved ones.

@ B. St. Marie:

“Parents shouldn’t have to spend tireless hours researching the potential side effects or ingredients of vaccines. The information should be readily available to parents as it is with any other drug.”

How long does it take you to read each vaccine’s VIS (Vaccine Information Sheet)? All that information is contained on the VIS which should be given to you before your child receives each of the Recommended Childhood Vaccines.

“I also find it contradictory that Doctors advise against feeding infants specific foods as a precaution against allergic triggers, yet they willfully expose our infants to allergen triggers via vaccines.”

What is an “allergen trigger”…never heard of that…then I don’t visit anti-vax websites to get information on vaccine. Do you mean a substance like neomycin that has anti-bacterial action or an adjuvant…oops sorry, I bet you don’t even know what an adjuvant is. Is your child allergic to protein or gelatin or eggs? Why not detail for the child’s physician what your concerns are…the next time your child is due for an immunization?

“Thank goodness there are websites dedicated to ENSURING access to information that could affect the health of our loved ones.”

I couldn’t agree more with your last statement. Websites such as the CDC, Immunize.org and Respectful Insolence are dedicated to ENSURING access to information that could affect the health of our loved ones.

@lilady, Your response doesn’t quite allay my concerns. Nor does it address why Doctors advise immunizations for infants containing bovine milk protein and egg protein. -Two items that happen to have made the “Top ten allergenic foods to avoid” list, and happen to contain known allergy triggers. Two foods that we are advised to avoid feeding our infants.

Also, I’m not sure if it escaped anyone’s attention, but the above video referenced information that *is* actually available via your highly esteemed CDC. Although, I didn’t see charred polyvinylidene chloride listed as a possible contaminant… I wonder what else sneaks in there?

Although, I didn’t see charred polyvinylidene chloride listed as a possible contaminant… I wonder what else sneaks in there?

Posted by: B. St. Marie

Mercury!! Hydrogen Cyanide!! Polonium!! Tetraodontoxin!! I didn’t find these listed, either!! They’re fuckin sneaking in!! FFS!!

Big Pharma won’t tell about these, either, all they’re interested in is keeping you sick and money and more money. And another thing SBM doctors don’t never warns you about is this little dandy I found on the CDC site: Public Health Matters Blog preparingfor and responding to public health events. Vaccines are the least of our worries when doctors don’t give basic information.
I wonder what else is sneaking in!!!!!

The second video doesn’t even deserve comment. Oh. My. Goodness. The first video… I don’t even know what they were trying to tell me was toxic! Egg? DNA? Iron? Glycerin?

And of course, a number of the vaccines there are ones that none of us are likely to receive. Dryvax, anthrax. Rabavert – we don’t even have rabies in the country I live in.

To be convinced by these videos (especially Pirate Pete!) you would have to look at these in the most superficial way, already focussed on the outcome you expect. But then I guess we all knew that.

See, this is why I always get my medical advice from ninja.

@Venna #13

Damn but the people who prey on the parents of autistic children have awesome marketing skills.

“Cassandra Affective Deprivation Disorder”

Aside from being an amazingly pretentious name (and copying Freud), what they’re saying is that these parents are always right, but will not be believed.

That must be really healthy for the people who buy into their crap.

Someone alert SEAL Team 6–there’s another pirate threatening Americans that needs to be dispatched.

Nor does it address why Doctors advise immunizations for infants containing bovine milk protein and egg protein. -Two items that happen to have made the “Top ten allergenic foods to avoid” list, and happen to contain known allergy triggers. Two foods that we are advised to avoid feeding our infants.

Those with the relevant allergies are advised not to get those particular vaccines, last I checked. I suppose you’re trying to claim that they will cause infants to DEVELOP said allergies. So obviously you must have the proper peer-reviewed citations to demonstrate that this is the case, right?

Also, I’m not sure if it escaped anyone’s attention, but the above video referenced information that *is* actually available via your highly esteemed CDC. Although, I didn’t see charred polyvinylidene chloride listed as a possible contaminant… I wonder what else sneaks in there?

I gather that it escaped your attention that one can start with a truth and then lie about its implications.

I suppose it’s only appropriate that the first video was using a Linkin Park track for backing music.

Gray,

Th1Th2, it’s not up to us to prove you wrong, it’s up to you to prove yourself right. How can you not comprehend such a simple principle?

Duh I’ve been doing exactly that since. So next time before you come up here and accuse me of something make sure you are prepared with evidence. I always knew vaccine apologists can’t argue with straight Science–Orac knows that. Just do what he did–hibernate.

Th1Th2, all you’ve proved is that you have neither blood nor tears, and that there’s no point in discussing anything with you. Goodbye.

Thingy

Duh I’ve been doing exactly that since.

No, you haven’t. You’ve been posting a lot of nonsense and calling it science. People have smacked you down over and over and your response has never been more convincing or effective than saying “nuh-uh!”

You don’t understand vaccination
You don’t understand infection
You don’t understand the germ theory of disease
You don’t understand basic science

Go back to school and try to learn something before you continue embarassing yourself here.

@Roadstergal

Unless he’s blaming the candy company, of course.

See’s is an absolute good!! They manufacture some of the yummiest substances on earth (beer excepted). How dare he besmirch the name of such an amazing company, they are part of what makes my life worth living!

Man, now I wish I were in California…

Thingy @46

Pretty much anyone who’s ever responded to you. Look through the archives and see for yourself.

B. St. Marie:

@lilady, Your response doesn’t quite allay my concerns. Nor does it address why Doctors advise immunizations for infants containing bovine milk protein and egg protein. -Two items that happen to have made the “Top ten allergenic foods to avoid” list, and happen to contain known allergy triggers. Two foods that we are advised to avoid feeding our infants.

I’ve never heard a doctor recommend avoiding eggs and milk for all children. Egg and milk allergies are among the more common food allergies (usually to chicken albumin and bovine casein), but most kids don’t have food allergies at all, so this isn’t a major health concern for most kids. Why would doctors make a recommendation that would rob all kids of important sources of nutrients when only a few kids would benefit from avoiding those sources? If you’re not allergic to them, eggs are very good sources of nutrition, and so is cow’s milk, though as with anything, it is certainly possible to overdo it.

Now, doctors DO recommend avoiding feeding actual eggs and whole cow’s milk to newborns. This is because they do not recommend generally introducing solids before 6 months. But they are fine with kids using formulas made with eggs or cow’s milk as long as the formula provides adequate nutrition; the vast majority of pediatricians would prefer the child have breastmilk, of course, but they know this is not always an option for a variety of reasons too complex to discuss right now. (Seriously; I’m a breastfeeding advocate, but the topic is large enough it’ll derail this thread for sure.)

Obviously, kids who *do* have known allergies to those items should avoid them, and should also avoid vaccinations and other medications which contain them. There are limited supplies of alternative vaccines for such kids, though I’m not sure all vaccines have alternates; for a vaccine with no egg-free alternative, a child with an egg allergy is going to have to rely on herd immunity. In other words, the child with the egg allergy is depending on doctors recommending universal vaccination where not specifically contraindicated.

Thingy

In short, you don’t know. I see.

Thanks for the solid example of just what a fool you are.

@ B. St. Marie (and others): If you had been following the blogs here, you would have seen all of the concerns you supposedly have about immunizations. It seems that you would prefer to listen to scaremongers such as the doctor in the video…did you REALLY understand anything he said? None of the (non-troll) posters here haven’t a clue.

Here we go again for the truly anti-vax crowd. These are the website references we commonly use to understand vaccines, the reasons behind the excipients contained within vaccines, the manufacturing process and so-called allergies to vaccine ingredients:

Vaccine Excipient & Media Summary-CDC Pink Book Appendix B

CDC-Ingredients of Vaccines-Fact Sheet

General Recommendations on Immunization Recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP)- (MMWR January 28, 2011)

The last reference should be checked under the heading “Severe Reactions to Vaccine Components-Anaphylaxis and Anaphylactic Reactions” to address egg allergies. The only contraindications to giving a child an influenza vaccine is if they have a history of full blown anaphylaxis or urticarial (hives) after ingesting eggs.

I suggest you read the article referenced in my posting at # 28 above in the Chicago Tribune about this doctors who has had repeated lawsuits and repeated judgments against him for botched home deliveries resulting in permanent neurological damage or deaths of newborns, chemically castrates kids whose only “crime” is having autism and having gullible parents and who evades judgments by declaring bankruptcy.

So, would you rather believe Mayer Eisenstein a totally unqualified physician who has indulged repeatedly in malpractice or the collective minds of ACIP committee members, The American Academy of Pediatrics and qualified physicians throughout the world who understand the value of the vaccines you question?

This blog reminds me of the a bunch of flies alighting on a pile of $hit.

How can 10,000 flies be wrong?!

Seems as if any post that isn’t in support of vaccines is treated like bobo the monkey wrote it.

The PRO vaxxers goal is to make EVERYONE get vaccinated (whether they want it or not) and save the world from ALL the diseases that have EVER been (or will be) discovered!

Thanks, but NO thanks. I’d rather die of natural causes than the Eugenics program that ‘Orac’ (the pussy who’s afraid to post his REAL name) would have us all accept in the name of promoting ‘good health’.

Wait, “mak[ing] EVERYONE get vaccinated […] and save the world from ALL the diseases” is a Eugenics program?

Sweetheart, you have no idea what that word actually means, do you?

Moron @53

So did you say Orac was “afraid to use his real name” while not using YOUR real name just to make yourself look stupider? ’cause that’s really the only way your post could look stupider. Good Job!

Orac_the_Asshole: (the pussy who’s afraid to post his REAL name)
So presumably that’s your real name? My, you must have fun signing official documents.

Let’s also observe that Orac DOES post under his real name elsewhere, saying the same things. So yeah, clearly “too afraid” to do that.

The PRO vaxxers goal is to make EVERYONE get vaccinated (whether they want it or not)

Not everyone. There are real medical contraindications.

and save the world from ALL the diseases that have EVER been (or will be) discovered!

If that were only possible. No, the goals are the far more modest ones of reducing death, disability, and suffering from disease as much as possible.

I’m rather curious why anyone would imply that saving the world from all disease would be a BAD thing, incidentally.

There is so much fail in Orac_the_Asshole’s comment that I don’t know where to start (and why am I thinking sockpuppet?).

First, if you are stupid enough to NOT know who Orac is, you obviously have no computer skills.

Second: Vaccines are Eugenics? Wait, WHAT? Vaccines save lives, so they lead to selective deaths? In the words of the memorable Inigo Montoya, “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

No, Pro-vaxxers do NOT want everyone to get vaccinated. Pro-vaxxers have enough brains to know that not everyone CAN be vaccinated, and enough compassion to want to protect those vulnerable by decreasing their potential exposure to (what could be for them) life-threatening illnesses.

Seriously. I will not do the work for the trolls, but suffice to say the Google search terms I used way long ago in order to uncover the Closely Guarded Seekrit(TM) of Orac’s true identity were nothing short of laughably simple.

I question the intelligence, or possibly the honesty, of anyone who claims not to be able to do so.

It’s even easier these days since he’s taken to cross-posting under both names, with only a modest amount of editing for tone.

Perhaps the most common form of ad hominem fallacy on the Internet is the attack against anonymity.

To be sure, anonymity often has its downsides (witness Orac’s anonymous critic @53 and of course our very own ugh troll).

It’s also completely and utterly pointless to bring up internet anonymity, anyway. I don’t post under my real name precisely because it’s supposed to cut down on the ad hominems they can throw up as pathetic distractions.

Not that that’ll stop them: Instead of dreaming up insults about my physical appearance, they’re forced to invent things. Like Gabriel, the racist troll who apparently thought I was a black Mexican Jew hippie flowerchild immigrant full of white guilt, living on welfare because I don’t accept the hypothesis that race, as popularly described, exists, nor do I believe it has any sort of direct cause-effect relationship with measures of success.

Of course, here in the rational world where truth is objective, arguments stand or fall based on the logic and evidence involved.

Beamup: “I’m rather curious why anyone would imply that saving the world from all disease would be a BAD thing, incidentally.”

It’s not natural to avoid being sick. Besides, diseases aren’t loaded with thimerosal, aluminum, antifreeze, dead fetuses and chimpanzee noses like vaccines are*.

And eliminating infectious diseases is EUGENICS, part of the Big Pharma plan to kill off most of the world’s population so they can make lots more money selling drugs.

*or should that be, “Arrrr!!!”< ?i>

Vaccines as *eugenics*? That’s *so* 2010!

see- “Eugenics fanatic Bill Gates funds covert vaccine nanotechnology”, Mike Adams, NaturalNews, 6/29/10
“Death by Vaccination: The Gates Foundation and the New Eugenics” by Richard Gale and Gary Null,ProgressiveRadioNetwork, 9/22/10

Bad ideas are easy to trace.

Wasn’t Wakefield suggesting that humans have a symbiotic relationship with measles, and that eliminating it might have unexpected negative consequences? I’m sure that was one of the things that made me wonder if he was losing it completely.

No, I believe it was Dr. Jay Gordon that suggested that measles was symbiotic and eradicating it was bad.

“It’s even easier these days since he’s taken to cross-posting under both names, with only a modest amount of editing for tone.”

Indeed, it was so simple to find out who Orac is in real life that I did it entirely by accident multiple times over.

Because I was used to anti-Orac people complaining about how hard they found it, the first three or four times I stumbled across his real world identity I assumed that it could not be him as it was supposedly so hard to find him.

“Indeed, it was so simple to find out who Orac is in real life that I did it entirely by accident multiple times over.”

Ha!

That just shows you how devious Orac really is. Although it SEEMS that you can easily discover “his” true identity, JB Handley alone knows the truth: Now that “Sullivan” turns out to be exactly what he claimed to be, it’s clear that Orac is Bonnie Offit.

@ brian: No, no, no…I am Bonnie Offit (sigh) I wasn’t a regular poster here when that fiasco went down!

BTW, The use of “asshole” “pussy” and “cunt” is a tip-off that the posters who bandy about these words have resorted to them because they have lost their arguments and resort to rants, screeds and gutter talk…pathetic and offensive.

Lawrence,

I believe it was Dr. Jay Gordon that suggested that measles was symbiotic and eradicating it was bad.

I think you’re right, though Wakefield has expressed similar ideas regarding mumps, of a “subtle ecological balance which has evolved over such a long time” (from an interview with Mike Adams). Native Americans seemed to do all right without that subtle ecological balance, for thousands of years.

Wouldn’t surprise me if Wakefield had said something similar – seems to be a recurring theme, since anti-vaxers seem to think these diseases are no big deal, even the idea of eradication is bad (for some reason, which is never really logical or even well thought out).

Of course, this does ignore all of the historical data & tens of millions of deaths which can be subscribed to the various vaccine-preventable disease over the course of human history. Just because medical science has advanced to the point where more people would survive (because of access to advanced care, hospitals and doctors), does not mean that it is acceptable to allow these diseases to run wild without any preventative measures.

Which of course, brings up the false argument that medicine is only about treatment & not prevention (a standard woo-meister claim) – when vaccines are all about prevention. They never seem to have a good argument (especially when the claim vaccines are pushed because of profit) when treatment of the various ailments is always more profitable.

Big logic fail here & why the anti-vaxers can’t get their stories straight – either big Pharma is all about money, which means vaccines should be considered “bad” since they are less profitable than treatment (especially against chronic ailments & long-term treatments for them) or they have some kind of hidden agenda, which even at a glance, suddenly makes it not all about the money.

So which is it people? Try to make sense of your position for once.

Wouldn’t surprise me if Wakefield had said something similar – seems to be a recurring theme, since anti-vaxers seem to think these diseases are no big deal, even the idea of eradication is bad (for some reason, which is never really logical or even well thought out).

Of course, this does ignore all of the historical data & tens of millions of deaths which can be subscribed to the various vaccine-preventable disease over the course of human history. Just because medical science has advanced to the point where more people would survive (because of access to advanced care, hospitals and doctors), does not mean that it is acceptable to allow these diseases to run wild without any preventative measures.

Which of course, brings up the false argument that medicine is only about treatment & not prevention (a standard woo-meister claim) – when vaccines are all about prevention. They never seem to have a good argument (especially when the claim vaccines are pushed because of profit) when treatment of the various ailments is always more profitable.

Big logic fail here & why the anti-vaxers can’t get their stories straight – either big Pharma is all about money, which means vaccines should be considered “bad” since they are less profitable than treatment (especially against chronic ailments & long-term treatments for them) or they have some kind of hidden agenda, which even at a glance, suddenly makes it not all about the money.

So which is it people? Try to make sense of your position for once.

Lawrence,

Which of course, brings up the false argument that medicine is only about treatment & not prevention

Actually Modern Medicine is all about masking symptoms and parts replacement.

– when vaccines are all about prevention.

That’s laughable. The goal of vaccination is not prevention but infection and you are a devout promoter.

Please ignore ignorant troll.

Anyways, I couldn’t watch half of the videos before shaking my head in disgust on how much ignorance these videos had.

I should point out that that quote was from Calvin & Hobbes, if it’s not familiar to everybody.

Wait, wait–so magnesium sulfate, the same substance found in seawater, regular bathsalts, gardening soils–is now a toxin, too? And gelatin, and amino acids, and tyrosine? A friend of mine recently recommended for me to take tyrosine supplement. Is tyrosine a horrible toxin, now? Should I denounce my friend as a fraud and take him to court for that? Oh my God, I should throw away my marble and limestone rocks in my rock collection now because they are contaminated with calcium carbonate! Might as well sue my former high school chem teacher, because he exposed us to the lethal sodium acetate in several of our labs!

Which is why we use the IPV in the USA. You might want to check out this article by a virologist who specializes in polio (and his podcasts are pretty good too!).

Yes, Larry, you’re correct:  a risk of live virus vaccines is that they have the potential to mutate back into the more dangerous strains they were bred from.  It’s rare for that to happen, but it still does happen sometimes.

There’s no medical choice that’s without some form of risk; in each situation we have to weigh the various choices available and ask which one provides the best risk/benefit ratio.  Polio vaccines are very interesting in this regard because the right choice in one part of the world may not be the right choice somewhere else.  In the United States, the choice to use the lower-potency IPV makes sense because polio is so close to eradication.  In India, where polio levels are far higher, the stronger immunity provided by OPV may make the rare risk from that vaccine worth taking in order to ward off the much greater risk from wild polio.

There’s no medical choice that’s without some form of risk; in each situation we have to weigh the various choices available and ask which one provides the best risk/benefit ratio.

It seems to be a general feature of antivaxxers that they are completely innumerate when it comes to probability—you can see this with our buddy augustine—but even further, they reject the very concept of probability with horror and disgust.

Suppose for a moment that you could automate every road and computerize every car in the country with the wave of a hand. Every car would be under automatic control for its entire journey. If 50,000 people were killed in one year in cars under their own control, you switched on the computerized highway system on January 1 the next year, and in that year 5 people were killed due to malfunctions in the system, a sane person would accept that as a tremendous improvement in public safety.

The antivax mentality, however, would be absolutely horrified. You wouldn’t have saved 49,995 lives, you would have killed—murdered—5 people! It would be the most heinous crime in the history of the world. There’s no talking to people like this—their minds just don’t work the way ours do.

@ The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge:

Amen. It’s a very important variable that charlatans learn to manipulate; it may make the potential victim’s attitudes nearly impermeable to our reasonable entreaties. There are interesting studies about “subjective probablity” that illustrate how truly bad people’s understanding can be. This keeps casinos and “get rich quick” financial scammers in business as surely as it keeps alt med cure entrepreneurs and supplements sales “in the black”.

Anti-vax advocates are able to capitalise on this disability because they use emotional language ( the example in your last paragraph above) and anecdata to distract their audience from *number* e.g. 1,000,000 to 1 vs 1000 to 1.

We can counter by focusing upon number and succinctly illustrating it via graphs and charts-( btw, I am especially thrilled with the Venn diagram to show how variance is partitioned).

So maybe we can’t talk with them but we can show them.

On bad probability judgement, I like to call it “sharks at the beach.” People tend to be more afraid of rare, dramatic dangers, like a shark attack, than they are of common, mundane dangers, like getting into a car accident while going to the beach. The latter is much more likely.

Another example I remember: Which is more dangerous to an infant: a real, live bear, or a stuffed teddy bear with button eyes? On the whole, the answer may be surprising to some: The teddy bear, because infants are much more likely to be around the teddy bear, and the button eyes are a choking hazard. If an infant does encounter a wild bear, it’s a huge risk, but it’s a very rare occurrence.

Yeah, remember one guy was attacked by a shark and that’s all that was on the news for a week?

I always like to say: “Sharks kill about 100 people/year worldwide—people kill about 100 million sharks. So I think we’re ahead.”

And that’s what slays me about the antivaxxers—even if the one in a million risk of some vaccination were real—and with such low risks it’s absolutely impossible to rule out coincidence—the risk of getting killed just getting into a car twice for the round trip to the doctor’s office is at least twice as high. And verifiable! But they never think about that.

And larry, it applies to what country?

And what polio vaccine is used in the USA?

Oh, and how did you learn about that website?

Chris, why does it matter which country the article applies to? Just because the US uses an inactivated vaccine doesn’t mean that we should stop caring about the rest of the world.

Larry,

Two points.

1) That MD has made some flat out false statements in the very question you link to. He talks about Hep B exposure, and according to him, “Now, if you look at hepatitis B, it’s a sexually transmitted disease. The only way a baby can catch it is through blood or body-fluid exposure… I took a more logical look at hepatitis B, and I realized that babies have no risk of catching this disease…” (emphasis mine). Anyone who has been around infants and toddlers in their lives (my mother ran an in-home daycare center for 0-3 year olds, while I was growing up) would know that infants and toddlers are exposed to everything they can crawl over or get their hands on. They touch, suck, slobber, and chew on everything they can get a hold of. A child can easily get HepB from another infected family member or friend.

2) Dr. Sears offers no evidence that his new schedule is actually beneficial, other than that it assuages the fears of parents. However, is this really beneficial? Is assuages a fear based on falsehoods in this way a good thing? All he is doing is confirming that they are right to have this unfounded fear.

I wanted Larry to acknowledge that there is a difference between the needs of the countries, and yes, the IPV is used here. I noticed he just posts a website without much comment, and I want him to actually show he has read what he posted.

And actually, Jarred C, Dr. Racaniello does think that IPV might help fully eradicate polio because the live virus does revert and re-infects like the article said. The last paragraph says:

What will be the WHO response to an outbreak of type 2 polio in Afghanistan? They will probably deploy trivalent vaccine, as was done in Nigeria in 2006. But this approach will simply lead to another cycle of eradication and emergence of type 2 polio. It’s time to begin using inactivated poliovirus vaccine, which I’ve been dreaming about for some time.

Larry, what are Bob Sears qualifications to recommend a vaccine schedule? What science did he use? You might read this article on it, note the title: Cashing In On Fear: The Danger of Dr. Sears.

Which is why we use the IPV in the USA.

Since 1955.

You might want to check out this article by a virologist who specializes in polio [promotion] (and his podcasts are pretty good too!).

Nice.

Thingy, you have clarified you still live on Htrae. The OPV was used in the USA for several years.

Also, you might want to read the article you linked to with a bit more reading comprehension.

That the OPV is the sole cause of VDPV. So tell me Chris how will you eradicate VDPV?

Thingy, you have clarified you still live on Htrae. The OPV was used in the USA for several years.

Not before the IPV. So that means your assertion in #85 is incorrect.

Chris,

And actually, Jarred C, Dr. Racaniello does think that IPV might help fully eradicate polio because the live virus does revert and re-infects like the article said.

Yes, I am aware. And I agree with him.

However, my post did not suggest that I didn’t. Your post, however, did suggest that only the USA matters (since you diverted the attention away from Larry’s posted article on another country back to the USA).

If you wanted Larry to acknowledge that there’s a difference between the needs of the countries, then you should have stated that. Since Larry didn’t post any commentary on the article, then we really have no idea what his opinions on it are.

It seems that the only thing we have to go on with Larry is his previous post, in which he comments on the problems with live vaccines. I agree with him, because I do not know why we use live vaccines in lieu of inactive vaccines for large populations, especially since we already have the technology for the inactivated version. I understand that if someone is unable to take the inactivated version for some reason, but can take the live version, then that individual should be taking the live vaccine; I don’t understand giving the live vaccine to large populations.

In the United States, the choice to use the lower-potency IPV makes sense because polio is so close to eradication.

Actually have you ever heard of enhanced-potency IPV?

In India, where polio levels are far higher, the stronger immunity provided by OPV may make the rare risk from that vaccine worth taking in order to ward off the much greater risk from wild polio.

The only thing the OPV provides is acquired polio infection with a higher possibility of VDPV. That makes two.

It seems to be a general feature of antivaxxers that they are completely innumerate when it comes to probability—you can see this with our buddy augustine—but even further, they reject the very concept of probability with horror and disgust.

That’s why smart people don’t play your game of Russian Roulette.

That’s why smart people don’t play your game of Russian Roulette.

Living proof, Ladies and Germs.

I’m not anti-vax-however I think Bob Sears MD is right in recommending a more prudent vax schedule.

This is something I will never understand about the antivaxxers. The actual antigens you get in all the vaccines you could ever get in your life are a millionth of the quantity you’re exposed to every day (except in Thingy’s germ-free dream-world). If you’re really worried about some component of vaccines causing problems, wouldn’t you want all the immunizations you could get concentrated in the fewest shots possible? Spreading them out would just be multiplying the (undoubtedly imaginary) risks.

@The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge

They always think with their emotions and not with their heads. Fear is a very powerful emotion, which can drive people into doing irrational or just plain asinine things. This allows supposed health practitioners and immoral salesman to easily establish a false sense of security and the false credibility of the “underground” (and “right”) alternative medicine that’s warring against the “wrong” society for the “good” of everyone. No one wants to be scared forever, and that’s how the anti-vaxxer community/alternative medicine practitioners are able to sooth their fears through emotional reasoning. Also, what they don’t realize is just because a majority may be “wrong” on one thing, it DOESN’T make the minority automatically right.

Sense,

There’s an old quote that states, “People will often believe what they desire to be true or what they fear to be true.” Seems a fitting quote for this subject.

@ Chris & The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge:

You know, many years ago, my own dear, sainted mentor, foretold that I would, as his true evangelist, be preaching the revealed truth fearlessly amongst the heathen: he truly was a prophet because here I am, *amongst the heathen* talking about probability!

– btw- this evangelism business isn’t all it’s cracked up to be! At least I find myself in your splendid company !

Jarred C:

I agree with him, because I do not know why we use live vaccines in lieu of inactive vaccines for large populations, especially since we already have the technology for the inactivated version.

Because in the case of measles, the live vaccine works while the a “killed” version did not. Actually there were some serious problems with the killed measles vaccine introduced in the early 1960s (there was also a live measles vaccine that had to be given with gamma globulin, see pages 55-56 of Vaccinated… search for “killed measles vaccine”).

So the issue I had with Larry just dumping one news article on polio and commenting on “live vaccines are dangerous” is that the story was on one type of virus. It had nothing to do with the other “live” viral vaccines like measles, mumps, rubella, rotavirus and varicella. You can’t count the hepatitis b vaccine, as it is made from genetically altered yeast, not any part of the real virus.

Oh, and the other problem I had with Larry’s choice of news article on the other thread was equating what happens in India with the countries that are typically discussed on this blog when it comes to vaccines. It is an apples and orange kind of comparison.

(by the way, one reason why OPV needs to be given multiple times in Uttar Pradesh is that the children have rampant diarrhea, so they need to be vaccinated over and over again because the vaccine doesn’t get a chance to stay in the gut long enough, which is why it also requires a more multifaceted approach that includes sanitation measure, not just choice of vaccine)

Larry weighs in with his positive opinion of Dr. Bob Sears…based of course on Larry’s “expertise”:

“@Chris- Thanks for recommending the article- the IPV of course.

I’m not anti-vax-however I think Bob Sears MD is right in recommending a more prudent vax schedule.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/vaccines/interviews/sears.html#1

Posted by: larry | August 7, 2011 2:43 PM

Gee Larry, you didn’t really provide any citations for your trust in Dr. Sears. Oh, did you base you opinion on Dr. Sears’ citationless article that you linked to…and do you want to provide the citations of studies that Dr. Sears completely omitted? Did you in fact read the link to Dr. Paul Offit’s article that appeared in Pediatrics provided by Dr. Sears…the one with 34 citations?

Chris and other posters here have explained the reason for the discontinuing of OPV in areas of the world that the WHO has determined are totally free of indigenous polio and the reasons for its continued use in polio endemic countries. Now based on your “expertise” based on a citationless article from Dr. Sears’ website you still “think Bob Sears MD is right in recommending a more prudent vax schedule”.

Anti-vax websites that parents view, celebrity “experts” (Jenny McCarthy), and Oprah’s celebrity Dr. Oz and his guests are the bane of every pediatrician…forcing the pediatrician to come up with “alternative” vaccine schedules. But, when a pediatrician deliberately posts totally citationless and false information about childhood diseases and the vaccines used to prevent these diseases, merely to sell a book to a gullible public it is an abomination.

Larry I can only conclude based on your many postings on RI that you are a fool or a troll…or a foolish troll.

(Still ignoring the delusional nasty Thingy Troll)

(by the way, one reason why OPV needs to be given multiple times in Uttar Pradesh is that the children have rampant diarrhea, so they need to be vaccinated over and over again because the vaccine doesn’t get a chance to stay in the gut long enough, which is why it also requires a more multifaceted approach that includes sanitation measure, not just choice of vaccine)

Chris is basically telling us what a nasty, cruel, unforgiving and vile infection promoter she is.

Well, we should be glad vaccines don’t contain dihydrogenmonoxide! Oh but, they should, shouldn’t they: we have been misinformed!

Ah, DHMO jokes always remind me of the time in college when I caught out a roomful of chemical engineering majors with it. Seriously, 10 junior/senior ChemE folks in one room, not one of them picked up on it and all agreed it should be banned.

“Excellent article on Polio vaccine
http://www.virology.ws/2010/01/04/is-bivalent-poliovirus-vaccine-a-good-idea/
Posted by: larry | August 7, 2011 1:49 PM”

And just why do you think it is “excellent”, Larry?

Because it is informative? Because it explains how successful OPV has been? Because it reveals that type 2 strain emerged in Nigeria on the back of trivalent OPV? Because vaccines ometimes have unforseen consequences?

Please elaborate, and then we can try and put things in perspective for you.

BTW, I think the risks of type 2 emerging in Afghanistan are virtually zero, unless one of couple of dozen or so Nigerians presumably infected with it gets on a plane to Kabul and spreads it around.
It certainly will not emerge de novo, if that is what you think.

Gray Falcon: “Th1Th2, it’s not up to us to prove you wrong, it’s up to you to prove yourself right. How can you not comprehend such a simple principle?”

Because, GF, Tw1Tw2 is a twat. And a particularly stupid one, at that.

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