Michelle Bachmann’s anti-vaccine statements cross the political pseudoscience divide

If Churchill actually said that (which is not well documented), he was quoting (or paraphrasing) Benjamin Disraeli. The thought may have originated from John Adams, who sent it to France via Thomas Jefferson, whence it made its way to England.

Bachmann is completely looney-toons. The more she says, the more crazy she appears to the general public (she’s getting a lot of flak in her home district for being more focused on the national stage than on issues and concerns of the people that actually elected her).

The biggest problem for Republicans is how “far-right” they have to be to cater to the Tea Party crowd (which is more motivated & will have far more influence in the primary process than they will in a national election), which will make it difficult, if not impossible, for the eventually Republican candidate to try to reach across the aisle to appeal to the independents or even democrats (can’t exactly support calling people who disagree with you traitors to the nation & expect them to vote for you).

As far as Bachmann goes, this is just part and parcel of her wackadoodle view of the world. Crash and burn, here it comes!

Actually, Orac, if you check out the ramblings of the Religious Right, you’ll see they tend to be firmly aligned with the anti-vax loons. See, vaccination is all part of control, and control of any kind is part of Teh Ebils that is socialism. Getting sick is God punishing you for sin.

Actually, on second thought, don’t go checking out the ramblings of the Religious Right. If you think anti-vaxxers are bad, the people who espouse Biblical Patriarchy may cause your head to explode, and that would leave a huge hole in the blogosphere, not to mention being very messy for someone to clean up.

Chris Mooney did it to himself. He acted like an self-important ass in ways that are completely documented and show him in a very bad light. Much of this came from the fact he surrounded himself by liars that were pushing his personal, fact-free ‘touchy-feely’ agenda and both published their lies and never did the adult, responsible thing by DIRECTLY ADDRESSING THE ISSUE and APPLOGIZING.

So, enough with the ‘poor Chris Mooney is a victim’ crap. His willingness to stifle RESPECTFUL, DOCUMENTED dissent while continuing to publish and assert the lies of Tom Johnson, et. al., as fact in order to further his own athiest bashing while trying to carve out a niche for himself as ‘atheist spokesman’ was what did him.

Not some ‘vilification’ by atheists. We did nothing but point out his lies and games, he did all the rest.

I recall reading comments by far-right (militia type) Americans attacking vaccinations (and fluoridation for that matter). Seems like Bachmann is just continuing that tradition, pandering to the tea party vote.

I will tell you that I had a mother last night come up to me here in Tampa, Fla., after the debate. She told me that her little daughter took that vaccine, that injection, and she suffered from mental retardation thereafter,” Bachmann said.

She continued: “The mother was crying what she came up to me last night. I didn’t know who she was before the debate. This is the very real concern and people have to draw their own conclusions.”

The anecdote of some random person or a wealth of scientific data? Oh, which one to believe?

Yep, the far right and libertarians are hand-in-hand with the New Age liberal hippie loons on two things for sure: vaccination and homeschooling. They detest each other and seem to have no idea that they agree wholeheartedly on critical issues like health care and education. Neither group wants to be told what to do, and many believe that doctors, drug companies, and the Department of Education are trying to take control of their lives and challenge their values. It seems there are just as many right-wingers as left-wingers trying to dismantle the public schools in favor of vouchers and charters. Both groups love a good conspiracy and many believe in ghosts/spirits–either for Biblical reasons or for “spiritual” reasons. They’re into golden-agey lifestyle things: both the “suburban survivalists” and the pacifist liberals are moving toward homeschooling, homebirthing, backyard chickens and organic vegetable gardens. The only difference between the two sides there is an NRA membership.

Something like Facebook brings this nonsense into strong relief. You can make a comment about vaccination and see your right wings “friends” and your left wing “friends” show up to make very similar comments.

It’s pretty hilarious how butthurt some internet atheists still are about Chris Mooney.

Once you move far out to the left or the right it starts to wrap around. They are different manifestations of the same sort of lunacy.

@LAB, add raw milk to that. Lefties come in on the sciency-sounding health benefits of brucellosis, and righties/libertarians come in on the gubmint intrusion angle. In a way, here’s to hoping they never realize what they have in common.

If Churchill actually said that (which is not well documented)

Or documented at all, for that matter. But if he did say it, he was being rather harsh on himself, seeing as he was a conservative at 20 and a liberal at 40. But it’s commonly attributed to him, so Orac’s description of it as a famous Churchill quote is (in a sense) accurate.

LAB: Libertarians are left-wing? I find that hard to square with the stated opinions of a) the people I know personally who call themselves libertarians, and b) the internet blowhards who call themselves libertarians.

True, they (sometimes) claim to be in favour of same-sex marriage and the like (but also in favour of people employers being allowed to discriminate in any way they like), but such beliefs get thrown under the bus as soon as they have to choose between voting for a party that will protect individual freedoms, and a party that will protect their wallets from the scary poor people…

Excellent political blog posts are rare. They are characterized by perspective, distinction between fact and opinion, references, and a fresh thematic point. They are difficult to find in all the noise.

This is one of them.

I’ve never been a Republican even though I agree with some of the ideas. And I really feel sorry for rational Republicans being stuck in the same party with climate and evolution skeptics.

I note the anti-vaxxers are mum on the Bachmann debacle. All the more reason for her to stay in the race – so that the anti-vaxxers are shown what a fool leads their “thinking”, and that all the general public are aware of the threat of “personal option” which has contributed to the recurrence of deadly diseases.

[Copying a message I posted at Jerry Coynes place, after he noted you also had a thread on the issue]

I think the rationale for mandatory vaccination in this case is a lot weaker than for most other vaccines. Unlike measles, flu, etc, you cannot catch HPV from casual social contact.

If you don’t want HPV and don’t want to get the vaccine, you could (theoretically) ensure that you don’t get it by not having sex. And if you get HPV, others can avoid catching it from you by either 1) getting the vaccine, or 2) not having sex with you.

Mandatory vaccination is generally enforced by imposing restrictions on what you can do if you are not vaccinated: the most important being that you are prevented from enrolling in public schools and colleges. There is a strong rationale behind these sanctions: if not vaccinated, you are more likely to get the disease, and then unintentionally and unknowingly transmit the disease to just about anyone you have casual social contact with. Other than everyone else encasing themselves in a bubble 24/7, there is little they can reasonably do to completely eliminate their risk. Thus, there are good public health reasons for violating someone’s liberty and making them get a (minor) medical treatment under the thread of government sanction for most vaccines that are now commonly required. But HPV is different.

IOW, although the reasons they give for opposing *mandatory* vaccination for HPV are bogus, that does not mean there aren’t legitimate reasons to view HPV as different from most other diseases that we vaccinate against. And it is not unreasonable to argue that those differences undercut the usual rationale for violating someone’s liberty.

Bachmann may have touched briefly on Gardasil just to appeal to her Christian base…being that the vaccine “encourages promiscuity”. The circumstances of Rick Perry issuing an “executive order” for the vaccine and becoming the front runner proved to be irresistible to Bachmann. She also couldn’t resist the retelling of the story about instantaneous mental retardation following administration of the vaccine. Of course, when caught in a gaffe…Michele never backs down and will repeat this story for the (short) duration of her presidential run.

The sheer lunacy of this woman’s belief system has supplanted the craziness of Ron Paul…which speaks volumes about the direction of the Republican party.

When I was growing up in a mainly working class Democratic leaning family, the differences between Republicans and Democrats were defined as big business versus the working class. Unionized workers were not scapegoated, nor did religion (Kennedy excepted) play a large role in judging the competence of a candidate to serve. Now this great divide has occurred where evangelical dogma, intelligent design, smaller and less intrusive government and a “promiscuity promoting vaccine” may be the deciding factors in the next Presidential race…sad.

“I note the anti-vaxxers are mum on the Bachmann debacle. ”

They are actually posting all over the place. I think Bachmann was supposed to head that Canary party thing they started.

An alternate theory might be it’s all about self-interest:
Their main problem with Climate Change may be their pocket books. Admitting there is a problem means discussing what to do about it, which may mean costs passed along to them.

Their main problem with evolution is it calls their religion into question.

I think a lot of people on the Right don’t truly have a problem with government controlling others. So vaccines are not a big issue to them, maybe also, are older people more likely to be conservative? if so, maybe enough of them remember Polio scares.

Here’s an oldie from 2008

Presidential candidate Ron Paul has spoken out against forced vaccination and the federal government’s eagerness to dictate what Americans may and may not put into their bodies.

“A responsible parent is going to say, ‘Yeah, I want my child to have that,’ [but] when the government makes a mistake, they make it for everybody. You know, that’s what worries me. They don’t always come up with the perfect answer sometimes… and people have had some very, very serious reactions from these immunizations.”

http://infowars.net/articles/january2008/230108Vaccines.htm

Government Vaccines — Bad Policy,Bad Medicine by Rep.Ron Paul,MD

Note that this is from 2002.

I wish someone would invent a time machine, place Bachmann in that machine, and send her back to the Stone Age where she belongs.

Nancy continues to astonish with her ignorance. Why Gardisil at age twelve?

“The human body produces the best response at age twelve”

Hahahaha

Being a deeply religious conservative, Bachmann forces reality to fit her ideology. Her faith tells her that anything associated with sex AND government mandates must be VERY bad indeed, so therefore Gardasil must be bad. And lo and behold, an anonymous stranger in the crowd confirmed this for her. The degree of scientific illiteracy is sad–particularly in someone running for president of the US–but not surprising.

Now here’s a prediction: since her ideology trumps reality, Bachmann will be unable to recant her statement or admit she is wrong. She will go through various linguistic gyrations and logical contortions and will continue to profess doubts about the safety of the HPV vaccine. So far, all I’ve heard is her saying “I’m not a doctor, I’m not a scientist”–an implied but purposely ambiguous retraction. Let’s see what happens if she’s pressed further on this issue–as she should be.

I’m not surprised at all by Bachmann’s stance on this or anything else pseudoscientific after learning of her husband’s “treatment” for homosexuality. That right there is snakeoil all around.

Unfortunately, the electorate is more and more made up of less people educated in basic sciences. I’m not saying they’re “uneducated”. Plenty of people with all sorts of advanced degrees don’t know jack about something as simple as a calculation of Relative Risk or Odds Ratio. Heck, just eye-balling the data helps.

Of course, some of that eye-balling is taking place of the VAERS data, but the people posting those data are not placing it in context. Because it’s kept by CDC, anti-vaxers say, “See, CDC has heard of all these evil things!” But they, the anti-vaxers, will never tell you that many of those reports of adverse reactions include incidents that happened weeks or even months after the injection, including car accidents and suicides.

By that measure, if something happens to me in the next 24 hours, will they squarely blame it on me reading this post? (Truth be told, I almost had a seizure watching the debate…)

If you don’t want HPV and don’t want to get the vaccine, you could (theoretically) ensure that you don’t get it by not having sex.

The problem is that the vaccine is administered to minors. Which means that the people deciding whether or not to vaccinate are not the same people choosing whether or not to have sex. You’re saying that if your parents don’t want to vaccinate you, and you don’t want to get a life-threatening disease, well no big deal; you can just spend your entire life celibate. And, equally, I suppose, if you don’t want to catch measles, you can juts go live on a desert island somewhere, hundreds of miles from another human being.

And few 12-year-olds are capable of making a vow of abstinence, and keeping that vow when they’re 18.

Plus, what if these girls who forgo the vaccine want to get married and have kids at some point? Should they be forced to choose between that andrisking death by cervical cancer?

SteveF:

It’s pretty hilarious how butthurt some internet atheists still are about Chris Mooney.

I’d say the most hilarious thing was Mooney basing his “Exhibit A” denunciation of the New Atheists on the transparently obvious accounts of a serial fantasist.

Mooney is a mixed bag. When he attacks junk science, he’s an excellent columnist. When he tries to establish himself as an “expert communicator”, he comes across as preachy and sanctimonious, and only seems to succeed in alienating and antagonizing the very people who are supposed to benefit from his expert communication skills.

@Divalent @29
To add to what Todd added @44, given that
a) 26% of people already have HPV, and
b) Most people will show no signs or symptoms, even if they remain contagious, and
c) The HPV strains Gardisil protects against cause 70% of cervical cancers,

a & b) No, this is not a situation where you can be sure of not catching the virus by your behavior, and
c) No, this is no time to be complacent.

@ Mu: Looking beyond the front page of AoA you can find this article. This is just the opening few paragraphs of this screed against Rick Perry and Gardasil, written by “guest journalist” Leslie Carol Botha of SaneVax:

Governor Rick Perry’s Gardasil ‘Mistake’ Cost Girls their Lives

Rick perry Reneging on Gardasil mandate in the Lone-Star State is an admission of guilt
and should not be forgiven or forgotten.

By Leslie Carol Botha

PRLog (Press Release) – Aug 22, 2011 – According to VAERS analyst and SANE Vax team member Janny Stokvis, Governor Rick Perry should have been aware and taken action on the mounting injuries from Gardasil in Texas before an attempt to mandate the vaccine. VAERS reports one girl died post-Gardasil vaccination, there were 14 life-threatening situations and 31 girls became disabled after Perry’s attempt to issue an executive order. The effort to introduce the drug into Texas schools turned into one of Perry’s greatest defeats. His admission of a ‘mistake’ five years later is reprehensible.

Perry’s order would have become effective in 2008 and girls would be involuntarily immunized unless they ‘opted out’ upon entry to the 6th grade. Texas was the first state to require that schoolgirls get vaccinated against a multi-strain virus to prevent ‘cervical cancer.’ Unfortunately, the National Cancer Institute has not directly linked the virus to cervical cancer.

IMO, we only have to wait a day or two for the Bachmann endorsement from the AoA editors.

“She told me that her little daughter took that vaccine, that injection, and she suffered from mental retardation thereafter,’ Bachmann said.”

I must be warped, because when my “little daughters” turned into adolescents I thought they were all suffering from mental retardation!!
Although I would never put it in those terms–they just suffered from the jumble of assorted growing pains and strange behaviors typical to the age. Maybe that’s what the sobbing mother was experiencing.

Ism: my uncle put it like this. He said that when he had daughters, one of his friends came up to warn him about something. “When your girls turn 13, they will hand you a bag and ask you to hold onto it until they become adults.”
“What’s in the bag?”
“Their brains.”

Though it was spoken for laughs, there is some truth to it. The early teen years especially can be difficult for a lot of girls. They certainly were for me. We don’t actually go crazy or stupid, but our hormones are raging out of control and we don’t know what to do about it. It’s basically what guys go through in the latter teen years — a feeling of invincibility, knowing everything, wanting to go out on your own and make decisions. It’s a very dangerous time in that regard; as far as Gardasil goes, the reason it’s important to vaccinate 12-year-olds is because you want to do it before they get into that rebellious phase where they think they know everything, think nothing bad can happen to them, and incidentally are very very very interested in guys and intensely curious about the emotion. No matter how good a parent you are, there’s a fairly good chance your good intentions won’t stop them from doing something unwise.

Screw that Churchill quote. He crossed the floor three times, and also said “anyone can rat, but it takes a certain ingenuity to re-rat.”

With candidates for President such as Michelle Bachmann, who needs enemies?

@ brian

There are several jokes just lying in wait in your synopsis of Perry’s educational adventures which I will leave to others as I am a lady.

I believe brian was being sarcastic. Sid, as usual, is just being stupid.

DW, well it took me a moment to get it. 😉

@ Offal: But you didn’t answer any of my questions…here’s the answer to “How do you know when your teenager is lying about her sex life or any other “uncomfortable” questions that you ask her?”

You’ll know when any teenager (and your daughter is no exception, Offal) is lying when their mouths are moving.

Offal, I notice you linked to a six year old article about the paucity of preventive health care services and its impact on cervical deaths in “certain populations”:

“Virtually all deaths from cervical cancer are preventable, yet the disease will kill almost 4,000 women in this country this year. Frustrated scientists know who most of them will be: black women in the South, Hispanics along the Texas-Mexico border, white women in Appalachia and the rural Northeast, and Vietnamese immigrants.”

These would be the same “certain populations” that you constantly blog about…you know those that are not in your “whitey tighty” affluent world. These would be the same “certain populations” whose infants died of pertussis last year, that you blogged about.

Offal, your prejudices are showing.

Wasn’t it at about the same time Perry was coming to grips with anatomy that he had an unfortunate falling-out with Christine O’Donnell?

Bachmann was right. There was one instance when a girl was left brain damaged by the unecessary HPV vaccine. I is rare, but some deaths have occured. Liberals who are on the side of “science” always declare that their precious vacines are 100% effective and no one has ever gotten sick, injured or died from a vaccine. And they call us liars…

Anti-science? Really? let us back up to the good old days where the pioneers of science where for the most part extraoirdinarily religious and social conservatives. What the hell happened?These days in order to get your PhD you have to proclaim that you are vehemetly a vaccine snorting ape related, gay comunist atheist with a slight violent hatred toward anyone not like yourself. When did this crap get in science?

evolution is a fairy tale. no different from peter pan.
global warming is a left wing criminal ponzi scheme designed to strip propsperous countries of their wealth to redistribute it to countries with little. What the hell ever happened to charity?

Gayism is a pshychological disorder and its only becuase of violent and professional termination threats made to the medical phsychology community of doctors that they changed their mind about it. What is so scientific about a bunhc of loser liberals who threaten a pshychiatrist for claiming homosexuality is a disorder? What is scientific about a bunch of loser communists threatening meteorologists to fall in line with the UN’s view of global warming or else lose their career? What the hell? Ecery one of these thugs should be rounded up and put in prison for that crap. Better yet a god swat across the face with a sock with a rock in it would do much better.

Looks like the left is the real anti-science party.

I was a rick perry man, but since I found out he’s just another vaccine slurping liberal, I could care less. Ron Paul is the real deal. I would love to see him win. Romney is a joke. I mean what is the difference between romney and obama? Ok, Romney is a moderate/liberal Mormom and Obama is a hard core left wing socialist muslim. Other than the religious/economi difference, both are exactly the same. They bopth hate individual choice and freedom and love to mandate things. Fuck mandates. I refuse to follow. I am a free man, not some puppet of a government dictator.

Huntsman is even more joke. I think he has some serious brain damage. He missed the mark. He sould be running for democrat party. I have found nothing remotely conservative about the man.

Backman is a true conservative as is Ron Paul. They both believe in individual choice and freedom and not some damned mandated crap.

Oh, and congradulations to all hardcore earth worshippers. You successfully took away the toy of millions of little girls Becuase of this global warming bullshit and Bush’s stupid idea to sign the nazi style energy bill, the Easy bake oven is now dead. 100 watt light bulbs to power it will not be available (at the store anywway, I still have a few tousand left). So I guess this is a win for everyone.

The pagan earth worshippers get rid of a light bulb.
The neo militant family hater feminists get rid of teaching girls to cook. A symptom more common these days.
Obama gets rid of more jobs to help crash the system faster.

A win for everyone.

Oh, and already I see big pharma advertising their flu vaccines. I said it before and I’ll say it again. I have never had one nor will I get one this year or any year to follow as long as I exist no matter what new type of flu gets mass hysteria media coverage. It’s all hype. Swine flu, bird flu, H1N1. Hell, Vitamin D, Colloidal Silver and a host of other things is safer and as effective as any killer vaccine on the market. so, if you don;t mind, please don;t annoy me with your scare tactics and paranoia.
Nice going dummies.

Am I missing something here or is there a problem with the story Bachmann repeated? Gardasil is usually administered after age 9, right? Don’t the symptoms of mental retardation usually show up before age 9?

@herr doktor bimler:

I thought I understood your quaint American dialect and the phrase about “getting a mulligan” when one rescinds a decision, but obviously not, since it makes no sense here.

I think it’s a weird way of saying “the negative effects of Gardasil are permanent”.

Politicalguineapig, Brian was being sarcastic and “Baglady” was the insulting term Sid used for “lilady.” I just hope you were being sarcastic.

Cleo, what does her gender have to do with anything? Is that supposed to protect her from criticism?

Cleo, I’m not a very good feminist but I’m feminist enough to think that Michelle Bachman (female republican moonbat) should be treated the same way that Rick Perry (male republican moonbat) is treated when he makes republican moonbat mouth-noises.

Less concentration on whether the plumbing’s indoors or outdoors, and more concentration on how sound the attic is, please.

— Steve

Cleo, try providing at a minimum a date and title of one of Orac’s blog posting.

Chris & doktor – go back to the entries regarding Sarah Palin during the last election, it’s all there. I pointed out the lies that were said about her, and even posted an interview where she discussed the lies.

The only thing I’m finding offhand is this, in which you inform everyone that Palin is possessed of eidetic memory and then promptly go further downhill. Of course, you could always point out what you’re talking about yourself.

Hey, who am I?

You can call me a whore now, I won’t be back.

@Cleo:

Are you picking on another Republican female candidate? I’m not saying she’s not batshit crazy regarding vaccines, but there are bigger problems in our leaders, are there not?

Anti-vaccine sentiments are one of the things Orac likes blogging about, regardless of who holds them. He’s not going to refrain from criticizing an anti-vaxxer who happens to be a politician out of some sense that criticism of politicians should be reserved for the big issues.

but there are bigger problems in our leaders, are there not?

Hard to think of bigger problems than “batshit craziness”.

AAAGH! I dropped a very important word. It should read “she did not vote Democratic or Republican.”

Time for bed.

In this matter Bachmann is an opportunist, scraping the bottom of the barrel to keep herself in the race.

lilady – apologize for what? I didn’t vote for this President or make fun of the people running against him. Maybe the people that did vote for him, and supported his election, and actively posted negative articles about his opponents, should apologize to the people of the United States for putting us in the awful position we are in right now. Maybe it is YOU that should apologize.

learn karate and carry a gun and always travel with a friend and don’t go out at night, etc

You do all that to avoid being raped? Seems like you’re curtailing your freedom a lot – what do you do if you need to go to the shops in an emergency after dark, but you can’t find anyone to accompany you?

FYI, I think it is a wise thing for people to get the vaccine. But should the government force you to get it, or should you be allowed to decide?

We should totally have let people opt out of the smallpox vaccine. You’d happily live in a country with frequent and deadly smallpox outbreaks, knowing that your forefathers hadn’t been forced to be healthy against their wishes, right?

@ Cleo, if our host is so sexist, then why post this: https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2011/04/cluelessness_and_sexism_in_the_american.php

As a woman and a professional in a male-dominated field, I wouldn’t be a regular here if there was even a whiff of sexism or chauvinism perpetrated by Orac. The only ones who engage in such prejudice are a couple of resident trolls. You however are an embarrassment to women by engaging in such histrionics.

No equal opportunities for weed and it’s messiah Jacob.

@wintermute
If someone decides not to get the HPV vaccine, what I suggested was a few of the things one might do to minimize the risk of getting HPV from a rapist, an issue raised by Vicki #48, not by me. (And let me be clear: the issue *she* raised was “getting HPV from a rapist”, not “getting raped”.) I agree it is not 100% protection (even with additional stategies that others might add), and it would mean a voluntary curtailment of your freedom of movement. (The vaccine would be better, IMO.)

Regarding your question about the smallpox vaccine, you probably overlooked my first post (#29?). Because had you read that, it’s pretty clear what answer I would give to your question.

Regarding liberalism versus conservatism and brains…

To equate US conservative with having brains is to equate cynicism with skepticism, or anarchy with freedom.

It is taking something which tries to look the same as something actually positive, while actually being the opposite.

Liberalism has always been the smarter choice – it is more open to change and less likely to stay a rotten course.

That said, neither is actually good. The best option is political scientism – in which politicians look at what the science on a subject says first and then make policy. This allows accurate problem identification, as well as a better means of testing possible solutions before fully implementing them.

At the moment neither side of the aisle is really interested in science in the formulation stage of their policies – they are only interested in it when it backs what they already want to do.

And that is what we see with Perry and Bachmann. In this case the science backs Perry’s position, and thus he defends it against Bachmann. Yet when it does not favour what he wants to do, such as with evolution or climate science, Perry ignores it in favour of days of prayer.

Bachmann would likely do the same with any given scientific field that supported her lunacy.

“Liberals who are on the side of “science” always declare that their precious vacines are 100% effective and no one has ever gotten sick, injured or died from a vaccine. And they call us liars…”

“We” call you liars, Fake Shaman-boi, because you lie; as demonstrated in the above quote. No one here is arguing that vaccines are 100% safe… most, however, are arguing that vaccines are safer than going unvaccinated. (Indeed, statistically speaking the two most dangerous phases of a vaccination are the drive to the clinic and the drive back. You’re far more likely to suffer an injury from an automobile than you are from a vaccine.)

“Anti-science? Really? let us back up to the good old days where the pioneers of science where for the most part extraoirdinarily religious and social conservatives. What the hell happened?”

The social and religious conservatives at some point seem to have decided that they didn’t like the world that science was revealing to them… and so they turned away from science and started opposing it.

“These days in order to get your PhD you have to proclaim that you are vehemetly a vaccine snorting ape related, gay comunist atheist with a slight violent hatred toward anyone not like yourself. When did this crap get in science?”

Pfft. You complain about the mote in my eye while ignoring the beam in your own, kiddo.

— Steve

Love it! Two bioethics profs, including one of my faves, Arthur Caplan, have offered a $10,000 reward for proof of Michele’s anecdote:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/professors-offer-more-10-000-proof-bachmann-story-132647843.html

I have a feeling they’ll get to hold on to that money….

Medicien Man: On the one hand, you did pretty good. Non-sensical rage, and just the right number of spellings and grammar mistakes. You’ve also gotten a couple of bites. It was just a little too far over the top for me. Still, a really good job on the trolling. I’ll give it a 9 out of 10. If you dial it back just a little bit next time, it’ll be perfect.

Dianne,

@Joe (#40) I agree that sex is a normal part of life, but I reiterate the point that there is a fundamental difference between HPV and most other diseases where vaccination in mandatory: the only way to ensure you avoid contracting the measles is to avoid all contact with all other humans. The situations where you are risk for contracting HPV are infrequent, voluntary, and afford you options besides vaccination (e.g., STD testing) if that is what you prefer.

Infrequent? Well, I guess it depends on what sort of love life you want to have. I don’t think I’d consider what me and my husband do to be “infrequent”, and I’m glad it’s not. As far as “voluntary” goes, you are forgetting about rape. As far as STD testing of one’s partner goes, you’re forgetting about lies, and what to do if they’re really in love but the test comes back positive.

So yes, there is a choice involved. But because of the nature of the vaccine, the person who decides about the vaccine will not be the person who decides about future sexual activity. Therein lies the problem with the “personal liberty” argument — because of that, there cannot really be any personal liberty with this vaccine. Some people think that parents deciding things for their children is a form of personal liberty, but if you polled 12-year-olds, I doubt you’ll get the same view.

Yes, tetanus is interesting as it is not contagious at all, but vaccination is mandatory. It doesn’t hurt me if you don’t get vaccinated. (I keep my vaccinations up). I won’t argue one way or the other (mostly because I don’t want to do a comparative study).

Tetanus isn’t infectious, but it’s very nasty and it’s costly to the community to care for lots of people with tetanus. It is a very difficult disease to treat; we’re much better off if people just don’t get it to begin with, and the organism is so ubiquitous that only widespread vaccination can acheive that. Today, there is also an epidemiological reason for it — nearly all tetanus vaccines given to children today are combined vaccines which also protect against pertussis, which is a disease where herd immunity matters a lot. There’s another factor too, and I’ll address it momentarily.

FYI, I think it is a wise thing for people to get the vaccine. But should the government force you to get it, or should you be allowed to decide?

Don’t forget the parental aspect of this. This is not a personal liberty issue. No childhood vaccine is, because children don’t get any personal liberty pertaining to vaccines at all. Their parents decide everything. So the question isn’t whether the government should force you to get the vaccine; it’s whether it should force you to vaccinate your children. The government’s perspective isn’t just one of making sure the community is protected. It’s also one of making sure the wellbeing of children is looked after. One can argue about whether or not this has enough benefit to justify a mandate, and will not cause undue financial hardship (that’s the part I’m most concerned about), but mandatory vaccination is not, in my opinion, unreasonable in and of itself nor an affront to personal liberty.

Just wondering: does the USA not require people from other countries to take jabs before they’re allowed into the USA? Don’t you need immunisation shots before you can get a visa?

Only for immigrant visas.

Hey insolent ones! Who wants to whack around this commenter:

http://firedoglake.com/2011/09/15/rick-perry-grossly-understated-his-ties-to-merck-during-tea-party-debate/#comment-2426040

I’m betting he’s a drive-by typist, but I felt I should respond anyway, daring him and/or his sources to claim the $10,000 Caplan and Miles have on the line.

Orac,

As you and others, have mentioned there is similarity in the far left and right of the political system.

On the left, we have the anti-vac’ers, the New Age Woo of Oprah, Huffington, Choprah (whom I like referring to as the Quantum Quack).

On the right, we have the anti-evo, -global warming crowd, the YECs, the fundies, and the prayer healers. The anti-vac’ers are also over here, either as the “small government” and/or prayer healer crowd.

What I support is the idea of authoritarian followers can exist on both sides of the political spectrum. Once you confirm XYZ as an authority, it does not matter what science says, or for that matter, any independent, non-partisan research states. Empirical evidence, logic and reason; testable, repeatable, verifiable, and predictive evidence and conclusions no longer matter. They are either a part of the liberal media/hype, or big corporations promoting bias.

I would suggest reading Dr. Robert Altemeyer’s: “The Authoritarians” (which is a free download). This is the simplified version of his; “The Authoritarian Spectre”, which was used as research background for John Dean’s “Conservatives without Conscience”.

Obviously, Handley is concerned that vaccination at age twelve will cause autism–because the alternative interpretation would be that Handley is simply anti-vaccine.

[…] i.e. exist independently in physical reality outside of their own thought process. This propensity explains much of woo and the Secret.

Well… New Thought (and hence “The Secret”) would seem to posit some sort of individuated ontologically real mush, but I’m not sure that it’s anything corresponding to “physical reality.” More like a series of slop-buckets of mind hanging overhead that all somehow get to be cast in the starring role for a production of Atman! on a cosmic stage somewhere (space is rarely challenged).

I’ve got to stop “slumming” at AoA…but I’m beginning to “get” how they “group-think”.

Even on 9-11 the responses of some of the posters were bizarre to say the least. It’s as if they resent the remembrances and sadness that remind us of the awful day…when they can dredge up the worst day of their lives…the day their healthy infants got vaccines and were “damaged”. It’s always the vaccines…the vaccines that ruined their lives and the non-stop anger and grieving for their “damaged” children and their self-pity.

Chris: Oh, sorry, I didn’t get the sarcasm on Brian’s part, and I thought one of the commentors had used the name ‘baglady.’ So, apologies.
As for the Eighth District, I was kind of exaggerating, but I regard all citizens in the Eighth District as whining wastes of space. They don’t like education, they don’t like vaccines, they don’t like science. Nothing but Christians and wilderness up there, and I’d rather have the wilderness.

I am struck by the fact that Bachman’s annecdote is weak even by anti-vaccine standards. When Jenny McCarthy says her son “became” autistic after receiving the MMR vaccine, we’re at least dealing with a diagnosis and a vaccine commonly given in early childhood. But how often is mental retardation diagnosed after ca. age 10? Clearly, this story is more doubtful than most, and its bearing on the overall occurrence of MR even more doubtful.

I’ve also been struck by the way “anti-vaxxers”, in discussing the HPV vaccine, will talk about pre-teens and teens as if they were much younger.

David N. Brown
Mesa, Arizona

A broken clock is right two times a day, Bachman is right about the vaccines.

The swine flu has a death rate lower then 0,1 , in Iceland 2 people died and 100000 were infected that’s 0,004% precentage and those persons who died was a elderly person dying from lung cancer and the other one was a person was a person with multilbe organ failures

Why take a vacccine for something that has no chance of killing you?

@lex

[citation needed]

“The swine flu has a death rate lower then 0,1 , in Iceland 2 people died and 100000 were infected that’s 0,004%”

0.1 would entail a death count of about 1632 for the 2009 epidemic alone. The best official figures appear to give it at about 15 times that.

Iceland did exceedingly well to have only 2 deaths in the 8650 comfirmed cases. You were only out by 1000% there. But still, 1 in 3 people getting the same variant of the flu in a single season would be a catastrophic scenario, and well worth preventing through vaccination, so you’ve effectively made a good arguement for vaccination through your mathematical incompetence.

Ukraine and Lithuania didn’t so so well. Take their death rate and apply it to your mystical magical figure for Iceland and you don’t have 2 deaths, you have nearer 20000. Losing 1 in 15 of your population in a single flu season isn’t a minor concern, it’s a nightmare scenario. Luckily, Iceland has much, much , much better healthcare and much beter prevention than many of the countries that suffered much higher death rates.

Try looking at the actual figures next time.