Mr. Michael Dochniak, meet Prometheus

Post author By Orac
Post date December 2, 2011
131 Comments on Mr. Michael Dochniak, meet Prometheus

A while back I wrote a brief, snarky post about a bizarre hypothesis that I considered so risible as not to be worth applying my usual 1,500 to 3,000 words of not-so-Respectful Insolence to. My original post was in response to a press release announcing a book by Michael J. Dochniak and Denise H. Dunn entitled Vaccine Delivery and Autism (The Latex Connection). Basically, the book posits a ridiculous hypothesis that the Latex in some vaccine delivery systems is a cause of autism. Not long after I posted it, Mr. Dochniak himself showed up in my comments, and hilarity ensued. Boy, did it ever!

Thanks to Mr. Dochniak’s persistent repetition and perseveration over his “theory,” the comment thread of that post puttered on and on and on for six months. When it passed 1,000 comments, I decided to shut it down and start a new one. I was almost like P.Z. Myers! I had my very own endless thread! True, it took six months, compared to six days, to reach 1,000 posts, but the thread was like an unkillable, unstoppable, lobotomized Energizer Bunny lumbering through this blog since spring, alternating between scientific inanity and demands that critics “read my book.” It just kept going and going and going and going. As of today, three weeks after I started it, my second thread has reached 362 comments and counting. I must admit, though, even for someone as patient and tolerant of cranks, critics, and trolls as I am in my comments, even this is getting to be too much. It’s been nearly seven months, and Mr. Dochniak hasn’t given up yet, despite having his hilariously inept, scientifically unsupportable “theory” flambéed, puréed, sliced and diced, stomped on, swallowed, and discharged from the nether regions like so much fecal matter, every bit of amusement digested for our amusement, countless times by multiple commenters.

Maybe this will put a stop to it. Longtime commenter and blogger, someone who was one of my original inspirations soon after I started blogging, Prometheus, has given in to temptation and started to post the definitive skeptical deconstruction of Mr. Dochniak’s ~~crankery~~ work. It isn’t pretty. But it is amusing. Reading it is also a perfect way to head into the weekend smiling; that is, if you’re a skeptic. If you’re Mr. Dochniak, not so much.

I wonder if Mr. Dochniak will leave me alone for a while now.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

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131 replies on “Mr. Michael Dochniak, meet Prometheus”

I wonder if Mr. Dochniak will leave me alone for a while now.

Heh, don’t be daft; this is the most attention he has received in his whole life.

Orac,

Thanks for the plug, and thanks for not being upset that I used your ‘blog to shamelessly plug my post. My intentions were good, to quote Garven Dreis:

“I’m going to cut across the axis and try and draw their fire.”

Prometheus

Well done, Prometheus!

And congrats(?), Orac, on your pseudo-PZMyersiness. As for whether Mr. D will leave you alone now? Of course not. You invoked his name. It’s like some skeptical version of saying “Bloody Mary” in front of a mirror.

Yeah, Dochniak showed up on AutAdvo a few years ago, trying to peddle his latex theory. I actually read much of his paper, but gave up because it just didn’t make any sense. I think he should spend more time with his son, instead of trying to make a living from this quackery. It’s really sad, so many people trying to make a living off of autism…

Amazing fact: When you search NaturalNews and Mercola.com, there is no mention of Michael Dochniak.

Prometheus always manage to make me happy so this will be a good weekend I’m sure of it.

Sometimes you wonder if researchers even know what the term causation means. Just because x happened and then y occurred doesn’t mean that x caused y.

“I’m going to cut across the axis and try and draw their fire.”

This is wildly off-topic, but I had a great uncle who flew torpedo bombers in the second world war. In 1942, in the Battle of the Coral Sea, he made a pass at a carrier and dropped his ineffectual torpedo; then made a second pass to draw fire away from his wingman. For this nearly suicidal behavior, he won a Navy Cross.

Despite flying ridiculously dangerous missions for the next several years, he survived the war, became a highly respected physician, founded a major pediatric clinic, and lived into his 90s.

Amazing fact: When you search NaturalNews and Mercola.com, there is no mention of Michael Dochniak.

Latex is Natural. Natural is Good For You. Replacement stoppers are synthetic. Synthetic is Bad for You.

At least, that’s my theory for why they’re not falling in line.

Forget all the Monty Python quotes,
the thread was like an unkillable, unstoppable, lobotomized Energizer Bunny
will never be eclipsed.

an unkillable, unstoppable, lobotomized Energizer Bunny

The Terminator movies are definitely running out of ideas.

I wonder if he’s gone on vacation… I really didn’t pay attention, though to his comings and goings – maybe it will take a day or two for him to notice.

Perhaps he can write a book about peanuts. People can be allergic to peanuts, so eating peanuts while you are pregnant, can cause allergies, leading to autism in the baby.

@ #5: lsm

I’d go to NN or Mercola to check, but then I’d need to detox myself from visiting their sites.

@ Mrs. Woo: Nah…he’s not on vacation. He got a small “royalty” check from the sale of his book to Promethius and he was out spending it.

You still can’t sign me up to have latex injected into my body.

I see that you haven’t bothered to read the article or the threads. That shows what kind of scholarship we can expect from a chiropractor.

You still can’t sign me up to undergo a chiropractic “adjustment”.

-FTFY

You still can’t sign me up to have latex injected into my body.

Oh, this should be good. I take it you warn your ~~hapless dollar machines~~ patients sternly about latex mattresses and pillows, right?

I just bet that Houston Chiro is trashing latex core mattresses…telling his clientele to stick with their sprung innerspring mattresses. Generating more “business”, are we?

In fairness, a simple search reveals that they seem to have had a little problem with a site hijack involving latex bondage toys and so forth about a year ago, so there might be some lasting animus.

@ Narad: That’s why it’s a good idea to not stint on your internet protection service. I wonder if mine has an add-on to eliminate bogus experts who post on blogs? Or should I attempt to use the kill file or twit list feature?

You still can’t sign me up to have latex injected into my body.
I have seen any number of anatomical preparations but never any made using latex.

Adverse reactions to vaccines
Chief Editors: John M. Kelso, MD and James T. Li, MD, PhD
Co-Editors: Richard A. Nicklas, MD; Joann Blessing-Moore, MD; Linda Cox, MD;
David M. Lang, MD; John Oppenheimer, MD; Jay M. Portnoy, MD; Christopher Randolph, MD;
Diane E. Schuller, MD; Sheldon L. Spector, MD; Stephen Tilles, MD; Dana Wallace, MD;
Zuhair K. Ballas, MD; James R. Baker, MD; Joseph A. Bellanti, MD; Daniel Ein, MD; and
Leslie C. Grammer, MD

These parameters were developed by the Joint Task Force on Practice Parameters, representing the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology (AAAAI), the American College of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology (ACAAI), and the Joint Council of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology. The AAAAI and the ACAAI have jointly accepted responsibility for establishing âAdverse Reactions to Vaccines.â This is a complete and comprehensive document at the current time.

âIf a person reports a severe (anaphylactic) allergy to latex, vaccines supplied in vials or syringes that contain natural rubber should not be administered unless the benefit of vaccination outweighs the risk for a potential allergic reaction.

For latex allergies other than anaphylactic allergies (e.g., a history of contact allergy to latex gloves), vaccines supplied in vials or syringes that contain dry natural rubber or rubber latex can be administered.â

(Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices General Recommendations on Immunization, 2006). This table is accurate, to the best of our knowledge, as of June 2009.

If in doubt, check the package insert for the vaccine in question.

Table 4. Latex in Vaccine Packaging
Vaccine Latex
Anthrax (BioThrax) Yesâvial
Comvax Yesâvial
DTaP
Daptacel Yesâvial
Infanrix Yesâsyringe
Noâvial
Tripedia Yesâvial
DT (generic) Yesâvial
Hib
HibTITER Yesâvial
PedvaxHIB Yesâvial
ActHIB Yesâdiluent vial
Noâlyophilized vaccine vial
Hepatitis A
Havrix Yesâsyringe
Noâvial
Vaqta Yesâvial
Yesâsyringe
Hepatitis B
Engerix-B Yesâsyringe
Noâvial
Recombivax HB Yesâvial
HPV (Gardasil) No
Influenza
Fluarix Yesâsyringe
Fluvirin No
Fluzone No
FluLaval No
Afluria No
FluMist No
Japanese encephalitis
JE-Vax No
Ixiaro No
Kinrix Yesâsyringe
Noâvial
MMR (M-M-R II) No
MMRV (ProQuad) No
Measles (Attenuvax) No
Mumps (Mumpsvax) No
Rubella (Meruvax II) No
Meningococcal
Menomune Yesâvial
Menactra Yesâvial
Noâsyringe
Pediarix Yesâsyringe
Noâvial
Pentacel No
Pneumococcal
Pneumovax 23 No
Prevnar Yesâsyringe, before lot D46873
Noâsyringe, lot D46873 and
after
Polio (IPOL) Yesâsyringe
Noâvial
Rabies
Imovax Rabies No
RabAvert No
Continued
Table 4. (Continued)
Vaccine Latex
Rotavirus
RotaTeq No
Rotarix Yesâapplicator
Noâvial and transfer adapter
Td
Decavac Noâvial
Noâsyringe
Generic Yesâvial
Yesâsyringe
Tdap
Adacel No
Boostrix Yesâsyringe
Noâvial
TriHIBit Yesâvial
Twinrix Yesâsyringe
Noâvial
Typhoid
Typhim Vi No
Vivotif Berna NA
Varicella (Varivax) No
Vaccinia (smallpox) (ACAM2000) No
Yellow fever (YF-Vax) Yesâvial

Genes Brain Behav. 2011 Oct;10(7):689-701. doi: 10.1111/j.1601-183X.2011.00710.x. Epub 2011 Jun 30.
Comparative immunogenetics of autism and schizophrenia.

Epidemiological studies have documented reduced rates of rheumatoid arthritis, a systemic autoimmune condition, in schizophrenia, and recent work has shown increased rates of rheumatoid arthritis in first-degree relatives of autistic individuals, especially mothers.

PLoS One. 2011;6(7):e20912. Epub 2011 Jul 20.
Aberrant immune responses in a mouse with behavioral disorders.

The Th2-like immune profile of the BTBR mice and their constitutive neuroinflammation suggests that an autoimmune profile is implicated in their aberrant behaviors, as has been suggested for some humans with autism.

Autoimmun Rev. 2011 May 23. [Epub ahead of print]
A clear look at the neuroimmunology of multiple sclerosis and beyond.

The term neuroimmunology was first coined to refer to a generic involvement of the immune system in the pathogenesis of neurological diseases, particularly of the central nervous system. Since then, the neuroimmunology spectrum has steadily grown and currently spans from classical autoimmune diseases of the central and peripheral nervous systems to previously unsuspected conditions such as autism spectrum disorders or chronic fatigue syndrome.

Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005 Feb;159(2):151-7.
Maternal autoimmune diseases, asthma and allergies, and childhood autism spectrum disorders: a case-control study.

A greater than 2-fold elevated risk of ASD was observed for maternal asthma and allergy diagnoses recorded during the second trimester of pregnancy.

doi: 10.1177/088307389901400608 J Child Neurol June 1999 vol. 14 no. 6 388-394
Familial Clustering of Autoimmune Disorders and Evaluation of Medical Risk Factors in Autism

In mothers and first-degree relatives of autistic children, there were more autoimmune disorders (16% and 21%) as compared to controls (2% and 4%), with odds ratios of 8.8 and 6.0, respectively.

J Neuroinflammation. 2011 Apr 25;8:39.
Increased serum levels of anti-ganglioside M1 auto-antibodies in autistic children: relation to the disease severity.

Thus, autism may be, in part, one of the pediatric autoimmune neuropsychiatric disorders. Further wide-scale studies are warranted to shed light on the possible etiopathogenic role of anti-ganglioside M1 auto-antibodies in autism.

*These antibodies show highest association with certain forms of Guillain-BarrÃ© syndrome.

Epidemiology. 2010 Nov;21(6):805-8.
Parental autoimmune diseases associated with autism spectrum disorders in offspring.

These data support previously reported associations between parental autoimmune disorders and autism spectrum disorders. Parental autoimmune disorders may represent a critical pathway that warrants more detailed investigation.

Plus of course the 67 or so immune dysfunction research papers … and the 88% regression found in autistic patients by Hornig.

hmm … perhaps some mechanism that has had an immunostimulatory response on the child’s (dysfunctional) immune system.

Be worth investigating wouldn’t it ? I would but then I’m a caring sharing sort of guy who wants to reduce risk to our most vulnerable infants.

Safer vaccines and vaccine administration who could argue against that.

slightly off topic but still on vaccines….. I see that the new ‘shingles’ vaccine is out, so I got on the waiting list. First time I’ve ever had to have a prescription for a vaccine as far as I know. $190 for this one, but my dad had shingles so I will avoid that at all cost…. it was horrible for him.

I wonder what the legions of wackaloons will complain about on this vaccine? Probably something about it being a ‘live’ vaccine or something.

Be worth investigating wouldn’t it ? I would but then I’m a caring sharing sort of guy who wants to reduce risk to our most vulnerable infants.

Safer vaccines and vaccine administration who could argue against that.

Sure, yeah. Also, let’s lock up any elderly person we catch mumbling to themselves, because it’s obvious to suspect that they’re witches and warlocks placing hexes on our most vulnerable infants. What kind of heartless monster could ever be against jumping to conclusions in the name of protecting the children??

If you are going to waste our time with your copy pasta from the ACIP Recommendations, why not try using the up-to-date 2011 ACIP Recommendations…dated January 28, 2011…for latex allergy contraindications, “Professor Sensei blackheart”?

The subject of this blog is the ending of the never ending thread of latex allergies causing regressive autism, the bizarre theory presented by MJD.

You really need to go to Promethius’ link provided by Orac to see where the discussion about MJD’s book is taking place.

@ Denis: Good for you for getting the shingles vaccine.

@ blackheart:

Oh Blackie, Orac has discussed Hornig ( see searchbox @ upper right, type in “Hornig”)- be that as it may:

From my own perspective- high atop the basalt cliffs in my ivory tower**- I sense an underlying fraternity ( sorority) amongst vaccine doubters who coagulate here in response to our most esteemed host. While there is definitely a political aspect to their doubts- which I’ll astutely avoid like the plague***- the major objections fall into two broad categories: that vaccines are contaminated ( by Hg, Al, monkey bits, cancer cells, squalene, whatever) which leads to autism ( by various routes including GI) *and* that vaccines selectively damage children who have pre-existing conditions which make them especially vulnerable via various routes ( of course both may be employed).

A few doubters here seem to cluster about the second concept that *certain* children may be harmed selectively through immunoloical reactions. Thus those espousing this position would argue that vaccines are not necessarily dangerous for *all* people *but* that they would only affect certain individuals ( however-and it’s a *big* however- we don’t always know *which* ones in advance so better safe than sorry).

In sum: the first group is suspicious about vaccines for *all* people ( you never know which batch has the bad) while the second fears the effects of vaccines on *particular people* ( but we don’t always know which ones).

So which position is most like yours? Can you flesh that out a bit *in your own words* for us, s.v.p.?

** sometimes wearing lavender.
*** no vaccines for that.

Denice Walter,
I was going to contradict you as I had the plague vaccine back in 1980. However, according to the CDC the Plague vaccine is no longer available in the United States.

@ Mephistopheles O’Brien:

I meant that purely metaphorically – there is no vaccine as of *yet* for the political which so plagues any and all discussions-
you must be aware of that- coming as you do from hell, Ireland, and Boston.

Denise Walter,

Ah, the metaphorical plague. Carry on.

PLoS One. 2011;6(7):e20912. Epub 2011 Jul 20.
Aberrant immune responses in a mouse with behavioral disorders.

The Th2-like immune profile of the BTBR mice and their constitutive neuroinflammation suggests that an autoimmune profile is implicated in their aberrant behaviors, as has been suggested for some humans with autism.

What is it with this weird compulsion people have, to create aberrant behaviour in small-brained non-social mammals and present it as a model of human autism, i.e. aberrant behaviour involving our social skills and our large brains?

Oh, dear, it’s no longer Blackheart, Ji Do Poep Sunim, and back to simple regurgitation decorated with boldface frosting? I had high hopes for the mysterious Orient angle.

ROFL!! rofl!! ROFL!!
If i told you i went back and read all that gibberish, what would you think of me?
Thankyou so much- Prometheus, Orac, other people, and especially “MjD”
I haven’t laughed so much in years.
If he doesn’t qualify as a researcher, he most certainly doesn’t qualify as a salesman either.
I have worked part-time in marketing, and even I haven’t said “Buy the product” so many times!!!
Am definitely coming back here! 🙂

Speaking of frosting, I’m starting to wonder whether Blackheart picked up his talent for assembling multidimensional meaning-cakes from Sandra Lee. Not everyone can carry the weight of Corn Nuts.

Combien, combien, combien de temps?
Talk about les guimauves.

herr Doktor bimler

What is it with this weird compulsion people have, to create aberrant behaviour in small-brained non-social mammals and present it as a model of human autism, i.e. aberrant behaviour involving our social skills and our large brains?

You obviously have heard/seen/read The Hitchiker’s Guide to the Galaxy – they might have been white mice.

lilady

You seem to be barking up the wrong tree … these are the recommendations from …

“Joint Task Force on Practice Parameters, representing the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology (AAAAI), the American College of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology (ACAAI), and the Joint Council of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology.”

I didn’t realise the CDC were the expert body when it comes to allergies and anaphylatic reactions …

apparently 2011 advise is…

“The only contraindication applicable to all vaccines is a history of a severe allergic reaction (i.e., anaphylaxis) after a previous dose of vaccine or to a vaccine component.”

as posted previously and further …

“Allergic reactions might be caused by the vaccine antigen, residual animal protein, antimicrobial agents, preservatives, stabilizers, or other vaccine components (161). Children who have had an apparent severe allergic reaction to a vaccine should be evaluated by an allergist to determine the responsible allergen and to make recommendations regarding future vaccination.”

Obviously those expert medical professionals would be able to distinguish allergic anaphylatic reaction from asthma attack for instance.

The subject of this blog is the ending of the never ending thread of latex allergies causing regressive autism, the bizarre theory presented by MJD.

Are severe allergic / anaphylatic reactions part of regression in autism, considering a cohort of those children may well have an autoimmune disease or other immune system complications ? Bizarre ?

You are as always …

Safer vaccines and vaccine administration who could argue against that.

Apparently one …. Antaeus Feldspar.

I think I’ll be taking into consideration the peak expert body concerned with allergic anaphylatic reactions rather than ‘lock up the elderly’.

Denice Walter

Orac has discussed Hornig

I think even Orac will admit he’s not the most objective participant in this discussion.(Bless him)

But science implaccable force that it is rolls on …

“Moreover, when the ASD group was separated based on the onset of symptoms, it was noted that the increased cytokine levels were predominantly in children who had a regressive form of ASD. In addition, increasing cytokine levels were associated with more impaired communication and aberrant behaviors.”

2011 University of California research.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0889159110004289

As for the rest I nearly got lost with the James Joyce repetoire.

You are as always …. interesting.

doi:10.1016/j.jneuroim.2005.11.007

Elevated cytokine levels in children with autism spectrum disorder

“This study compared production of IL-2, IFN-Î³, IL-4, IL-13, IL-5 and IL-10 in peripheral blood mononuclear cells from 20 children with autism spectrum disorder to those from matched controls. Levels of all Th2 cytokines were significantly higher in cases after incubation in media alone, but the IFN-Î³/IL-13 ratio was not significantly different between cases and controls. Cases had significantly higher IL-13/IL-10 and IFN-Î³/IL-10 than controls.

Conclusion: Children with ASD had increased activation of both Th2 and Th1 arms of the adaptive immune response, with a Th2 predominance, and without the compensatory increase in the regulatory cytokine IL-10.”

—————————-

Altered Sensitivity to Environmental Toxicants-PBDEs, immunity, and autism

“A complex interplay between immunological and environmental factors may have a role in autism. Polybrominated diphenyl ethers (PBDEs) are environmental toxicants that impact neurodevelopment and immunity [34â37]. A 2009 study by Ashwood et al. explored the interaction between PBDEs and cellular immunity in children with ASD [**38]. Peripheral blood mononuclear cells from ASD and typically developing children were pretreated with a PBDE, stimulated with the bacterial derivative LPS, and compared to non-PBDE-treated cell cultures. PBDE-treatment of control cultures led to reduced production of inflammatory cytokines and chemokines. This suggests that PBDEs suppress immune responses in neurotypical populations. In contrast, PBDE-treated cultures from persons with ASD showed dramatically increased production of pro-inflammatory cytokines and chemokines. These results suggest that individuals with ASD have different immune sensitivity to the environmental toxicant than neurotypical children [**38]. This may be indicative of differential genetic susceptibility to PBDEs and/or a breakdown of proper immune regulation in ASD.”

Biochim Biophys Acta. 2010 Dec 28. [Epub ahead of print]

Mast cell activation and autism.

Molecular Immunopharmacology and Drug Discovery Laboratory, Department of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics, Tufts University School of Medicine

Department of Biochemistry, Tufts University School of Medicine

Department of Internal Medicine, Tufts University School of Medicine and Tufts Medical Center

Department of Psychiatry, Tufts University School of Medicine and Tufts Medical Center

Allergy Clinical Research Center, Allergy Section, Attikon General Hospital, University of Athens Medical School, Athens 12462, Greece.

“Perinatal mast cell activation by infectious, stress-related, environmental or allergic triggers can lead to release of pro-inflammatory and neurotoxic molecules, thus contributing to brain inflammation and ASD pathogenesis, at least in a subgroup of ASD patients. This article is part of a Special Issue entitled: Mast cells in inflammation.”

Safer vaccines and vaccine administration – Who could argue against that ?

J Neuroinflammation. 2011 Nov 30;8(1):168. [Epub ahead of print]

Neuro-Inflammation, Blood-Brain Barrier, Seizures and Autism.

Many children with Autism Spectrum Diseases (ASD) present with seizure activity, but the pathogenesis is not understood.

Recent evidence indicates that neuro-inflammation could contribute to seizures. We hypothesize that and mast cell activation due to allergic, environmental and/or stress triggers could lead to focal disruption of the blood-brain barrier and neuro-inflammation, thus contributing to the development of seizures.

Treating neuro-inflammation may be useful when anti-seizure medications are ineffective.”

…and regression ?

Good to see real researchers and scientists taking these types of issues surrounding autism, immune system dysfunction and allergies seriously.

blackheart @24: the 88% regression found in autistic patients by Hornig

DW @28: Orac has discussed Hornig ( see searchbox @ upper right, type in “Hornig”)-

I wondered whether a citation for the particular Lipkin / Hornig paper with the 88% figure means that blackheart accepts the conclusion announced in its title (“Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy”).

herr doktor

Distinct intestinal pathology (enteropathy) was established before by John Walker-Smith,Simon Murch and Mike Thomson three leading paediatric gastroenterologists firstly in the Lancet 12 patients then in an additional 47 or so patients.

Was this related to vaccine administration ?

The Hornig paper has a number of very clear problematic issues that I’m sure a person as intelligent as yourself can quickly surmise with the briefest of looks.

herr doktor

Here’s some quick thoughts I jotted down … I didn’t have time to go thoroughly through each one… but you get the general drift. Some problematic areas …which I’m sure can be cleared up.

1. There were clear and substantial differences in the gender of the AUT/GI and GI Control cases. AUT generally accepted at 4 to 1 this research – AUT 23/2 and Control 9/4.

2. There were clear ethnicity differences in the two groups. Particularly Asian and Hispanic ethnic groups. AUT 28% / Control 8%

3. There was a significant difference in age at biopsy. (4 months difference)

4. Age at First MMR (7 months difference)

5. Total number of MMR vaccines (20 / 31)

6. Total number of all vaccines. (17 / 20)

7. The clinical indications for endoscopic/colonoscopic procedures is not elucidated fully for each group. Nor each individual.

8. There appears to be no effort to examine severity of GI symptoms.

9. 80% of cases and 69% of controls received only one MMR prior to the study.

10. AUT diagnoses were confirmed for all cases. Asperger’s , PDD were excluded.

11. There is no attempt at clinically arriving at or describing differing phenotypes within ASD

12.* The Dublin laboratory used by Wakefield correctly identified all positive controls, but previously ‘skeptiks’ have insisted it was irreversibly contaminated ? (See note below)

13. 48% of AUT cases MMR before GI onset compared to only 23% of controls.

14. Both subjects with positive samples (MV) had reactive lymphoid follicles (RLF) which was a similar pathology elucidated by John Walker-Smith.

15. “If MMR is causally related to either GI disturbances or AUT it should precede their onset.”

This is not a logical statement, particularly in regards to what we now know about ASD phenotypes.

16. Nor are probably any of the other statements made subsequently.

*All laboratories correctly identified all positive controls using pre-established criteria for positivity (positive results in at least two of three wells with at least one of the primer pairs for F and one of the primer pairs for H). All laboratories correctly identified all negative controls.
Concordance across laboratories was achieved in the initial round of real-time RT-PCR assays for all positive and negative results with the exception of a single study sample, an ileal biopsy from a control. An additional three samples, one ileal sample (from a control) and two cecal samples (one case, one control) yielded signal in at least one assay in one laboratory but did not meet criteria for positivity. All four samples were retested as below to resolve discrepancies.

You know, even a faux-professor tries to stay on topic, in the appropriate post, and this is neither.

Well, Lawrence, it is appropriate in a certain sense. He is in a form of Dochniak repeat mode: regurgitating the same nonsense he did before without any regard that he has been told it is nonsense.

Alright then, Blackie!

OK, I think I understand … you are saying that toxins, contaminants, or allergens can lead to an immunological (or allergic) response that interferes with normal neurodevelopment and results in autism. One of the possible avenues for this sequence of events is vaccines; GI symptoms are evidence of this phenomenon. ( By inference)children who develop autism are more vulnerable than those un-affected. This sounds familiar: definitely related to AJW. And Michael D.

-btw- James Joyce? I’m usually shooting for Wm James.

15. “If MMR is causally related to either GI disturbances or AUT it should precede their onset.”

This is not a logical statement, particularly in regards to what we now know about ASD phenotypes.

Because we now know that certain ASD phenotypes feature reversal of cause/effect temporal sequence.

Blackheart (#43):

“15. “If MMR is causally related to either GI disturbances or AUT it should precede their onset.”

This is not a logical statement, particularly in regards to what we now know about ASD phenotypes.”

I must have missed the paper that discussed the Feynman diagram of autistic spectrum disorder. Which phenotypes are known (or suspected) to exhibit time reversal?

Prometheus

That paper on phenotypes that exhibit time reversal must only exist on Htrae.

Our friend does not seem to recognise that *time’s arrow* thing-a-ma-jiggy we like so much: when you slide into primary process stream-of-pre-consciousness you only have a semantic network on which to hook your ropes so it’s entirely possible that you might run into James Joyce or a facsimile thereof. Not the first time I’ll bet.

I have to go to work.

Prof Blackheart:
The Hornig paper has a number of very clear problematic issues that I’m sure a person as intelligent as yourself can quickly surmise with the briefest of looks.

Then why on earth did you cite its results in your comment #24? I am confused.

herr doktor

I am confused.

This is happening more and more frequently and does raise a concern. Perhaps you should visit your local medical professional.

Not all the Hornig paper is problematic there are some aspects that are not. In this case the identification of regression seems quite robust and therefore valid.

LW , Prometheus . Chris and Denice

Well let’s break it down into a number of questions.

What is Autism ?

How is Autism defined physiologically ?

What phenotypes of autism are there ?

Are each of these phenotypes defined physiologically ?

What is the aetiology of autism ?

Is it a single cause ?

Is it multifactorial ?

Is it genetic ?

Is it environmental ?

Is it genetic and environmental ?

Does environment follow genetics ?

Or does genetics follow genes ?

Or is it even more complex environment expresses genes that then changes environment that expresses more genes ?

How are Autistic GI symptoms defined from non autistic GI symptoms ?

What GI symptoms do AUT patients commonly share with non AUT patients ?

Can a AUT patient have more than one GI symptom at a time ? Or over time ?

Is it the MMR vaccine or is it when the MMR vaccine is administered ?

Is it the interval between other vaccines like DTaP ?

Is MMR protective for most individuals but not in some individuals ?

@the halfwit Blackheart:

Distinct intestinal pathology (enteropathy) was established before by John Walker-Smith,Simon Murch and Mike Thomson three leading paediatric gastroenterologists firstly in the Lancet 12 patients then in an additional 47 or so patients.

As has been pointed out, this is false. The slides showed that the children’s results were not abnormal.
You are now lying. Please stop.

Denice

“Einstein’s theory of special relativity also introduces another perspective – that simultaneity is relative. There is no single universal Newtonian time inexorably marching on but many ‘times’, to different beats, with diverse persons. The nature of time is truly mysterious and perhaps grasped better by poetic insight than dry discourse.”

@ Blackheart

First of all, Mr:
autism is a neuro-developmental condition that is *diagnosed* when a child *behaves* in a fashion that varies significantly from the norm, i.e. does not follow the usual path of development in communication/ social. In addition, there may be repetitive actions and a limited pattern of interests.

Notice that this is diagnosed by *observation* not medical testing ( MRIs, CAT scans, blood tests). The definition is linguistic and has been changed (DSM IV mid-1990s), expanding what constitutes the conditions- which means that *children who were not diagnosed previously might _now_ be diagnosed*.

Not to re-hash what Orac and others have written: it appears that there is a complex genetic cause and possibly *early* environmental influences ( i.e. pre-natal/ pattern similar to schizophrenia genetic- plus early environment). Because diagnoses is by observation of communication and social skills, which do not occur at birth, diagnoses are not usually made until the differences from the norm are apparent ( certain milestones don’t appear). However, very early evidence of social differences ( infant’s gaze, etc.) show antecedents in the social realm.

The association of autism with vaccines was considered because of the time lag ( social/ communication skills can’t be measured at birth but at, let’s say, approximately 18 months).

Now, from your selection of data and focus on GI, I would venture a guess that you – at least partially- support AJW’s position that vaccines cause both symptoms of autism and a specific GI condition. From my own point of view, as more data from early infancy and perhaps from imaging ( like LONI @ UCLA) come in, AJW will look more wrong, if that’s possible.

“I am confused.”
This is happening more and more frequently and does raise a concern.
If the symptoms continue to progress my loved ones will stage an intervention and remove my internet access.

Not all the Hornig paper is problematic there are some aspects that are not. In this case the identification of regression seems quite robust and therefore valid.
So you do not trust the authors to apply their observational and clinical skills to the main topic of their research, but only when they’re making an irrelevant side comment? Do you have one of these?
http://www.cherrypicker.ie/images/elevated_working_platforms.jpg

The nature of time is truly mysterious and perhaps grasped better by poetic insight than dry discourse.

Perhaps, but it’s best grasped by solving the equations. Just sayin’.

The nature of time is truly mysterious and perhaps grasped better by poetic insight than dry discourse.

The source for the quote is an article by a fluid-dynamics physicist in a 1989 New Scientist, back when NS was still worth reading and had not finished its descent into sensation-hunting pap. They had Ariadne, Grimbledon Down, *and* Kate Charlesworth’s “Life, The Universe and (almost) everything”! Nostalgia!
A subsequent issue

Blackheart (#53):

“LW ,Prometheus. Chris and Denice. Well let’s break it down into a number of questions.”

I have a better idea. Instead of providing questions, why don’t you provide some answers? They don’t have to be correct (and based on past performance, they won’t be), but I for one would like to see what you think the answers are.

It’s a classic hallmark of the post-modern inconoclast to have questions but no answers. The assumption seems to be that if there is something we don’t know, then we know nothing at all.

That may be how they did it in your “lit-crit” classes, Blackheart, but that’s not how it works in real science.

So, come on, drop the sneering intellectual pose and either show us your work or admit you don’t have any.

Prometheus

Why is he referring to me? I have already stated several times that I don’t bother reading his incomprehensible screeds. Especially since I caught him lying by selectively quoting me.

It’s a classic hallmark of the post-modern iconoclast to have questions but no answers

Boing Boing recently linked to the following book review, which for some reason brought Blackheart to mind. Excuse length:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/993887380658p195/
“This is a book that contradicts itself a hundred times; but that is not a criticism of it, because its author thinks contradictions are a sign of intellectual ferment and vitality. This is a book that systematically distorts and selects historical evidence; but that is not a criticism, because its author thinks that all interpretations are biased, and she regards it as her duty to pick and choose her facts to favor her own brand of politics. This is a book full of vaporous, French-intellectual prose that makes Teilhard de Chardin sound like Ernest Hemingway by comparison; but that is not a criticism, because the author likes that sort of prose and has taken lessons in how to write it, and she thinks that plain, homely speech is part of a conspiracy to oppress the poor.

“This is a book that clatters around in a dark closet of irrelevancies for 450 pages before it bumps accidentally into its index and stops; but that is not a criticism, either, because its author finds it gratifying and refreshing to bang unrelated facts together as a rebuke to stuffy minds. This book infuriated me; but that is not a defect in it, because it is supposed to infuriate people like me, and the author would have been happier still if I had blown out an artery. In short, this book is flawless, because all its deficiencies are deliberate products of art. Given its assumptions, there is nothing here to criticize.”

Prometheus,
One advantage of only having questions is that you can get the person you’re talking to to argue both sides for you and set up positions for you that you clearly never took (as you took no position). Done properly, you can get your conversational partner to argue any number of positions, and continually have the moral high ground.

herr doktor

So you do not trust the authors to apply their observational and clinical skills to the main topic of their research, but only when they’re making an irrelevant side comment? Do you have one of these?

Of course I trust them I just note the many problematic factors they should have and could have addressed. Some of them though were not thoroughly recognised (phenotypes) as such at the time they have the data and could probably make some very clear adjustments.

Cherry picker doktor you are in danger of becoming intellectually bland.

“Einstein’s theory of special relativity also introduces another perspective – that simultaneity is relative….”

Uh-huh. Unfortunately, given that SR preserves causality, that has a fat lot of multidimensional, multilayered nothing to do with this:

“If MMR is causally related to either GI disturbances or AUT it should precede their onset.”

This is not a logical statement, particularly in regards to what we now know about ASD phenotypes.

Even Nagarjuna preserves phenomenological order, Master Corn Nuts.

Even Nagarjuna preserves phenomenological order, Master Corn Nuts.

It’s no use, Narad. These anti-vaxers have a unique conception of timeâkind of like the Law of Contagion only with time instead of space. I tried to explain to one of our regulars that just because one event follows another in time, it doesn’t mean it was caused by that (particular) previous event, but one thing following another is just how time works. She said my post was the “most moronic thing” she’d ever read. You can’t reach magical thinkers like this.

Z. M. Blackheart:
Of course I trust [Hornig et al] I just note the many problematic factors they should have and could have addressed.

To stubbornly perseverate on my earlier question (comment 41), does your trust extend as far as accepting the conclusion announced in the paper’s title (“Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy”)?

Measles virus RNA detected in the gut of one autistic child and one control. How could “very clear adjustments” make that support the idea that MMR causes autism?

Who was it who wrote the following?

One observation that came out of this study is that there is indeed a correlation between GI complaints and regressive autism. Neither are associated with the MMR, but they are associated with each other. This is certainly an observation that should be followed up with further study…

My mentor used to say that I had an uncanny ability to “get through” to people that he envied- being too much of a wonk himself. I wonder about his evaluation at times.

Many of our critics come from a background that doesn’t include systematic study in the life/ social sciences and their underpinnings in mathematics. So they are in foreign territory and like newcomers or tourists, glance at the surface without understanding the deeper issues. Often I feel that the linkages they imagine ( e.g. hypotheses about autism or cancer) are based on semantic similarity more than any physiological liklihood.

However because they *have* proficiency in language it is entirely probable that we can get through via that route. After all, how much of your scientific/ mathematical education came about in any other fashion?

-btw- on the “time question”- a prof of mine always joked that his dissertation showed that “age is a function of time”. I know interesting people.

Abberant behavior in Th-2 responsive mice? That’s just silly. BAlb/C mice are also Th2-prone, and I perfectly normal docile lab mice.

Prometheus

I have a better idea.

I doubt that.

Instead of providing questions, why don’t you provide some answers?

I have, just make your leisurely way through the questions I proposed … the answer should come with a ‘clunk’.

They don’t have to be correct (and based on past performance, they won’t be)

I may not be always correct but then who is in autism research ? But at least I don’t make the many and varied substantial errors that you have.

post-modern inconoclast

The assumption seems to be that if there is something we don’t know, then we know nothing at all.

I’m beginning to formulate that picture based on the intellectual history of the commentary given.

That may be how they did it in your “lit-crit” classes, Blackheart, but that’s not how it works in real science.

Is that ‘real science ‘ a + b = c ?

So, come on, drop the sneering intellectual pose and either show us your work or admit you don’t have any.

A challenge wrapped in an insult …how quaint.

I suppose the challenge for you will be if you can understand the answer ?

——————————

“If MMR is causally related to either GI disturbances or AUT it should precede their onset.”

——————————

Well let’s break it down into a number of questions.

What is Autism ?

Pragmatically we don’t know … we “believe” it is a set of aberrant behaviours outside the norm and primarily concerned with social interaction and communication. Our understanding of this is fluid and evidenced by multiple confusions surrounding it’s definition.

Therefore if we cannot define what Autism is it is difficult to construct a logical statement.

How is Autism defined physiologically ?

It’s not … though we are moving to a truer understanding that some autism or all autism is in fact physically (biologically) driven. Which is a wider reflection on what we are now beginning to understand about a variety of ‘psychological conditions or mental health issues’.

We do not know what physiologically differentiates ‘autism’ from ‘normal’. Nor do we know whether the physiology of ‘autism’ is the same in all ‘autism’.

There are some clues but not all are consistent with one type of autism.

Therefore if we cannot define what Autism is ‘biologically’ it is difficult to construct a logical statement

What phenotypes of autism are there ?

There is clear emerging and robust evidence that there are distinct ‘types’ of autism that do indeed have physical biomarkers … two have been identified one concerning aberrant brain growth and the other immune system dysfunction. The researchers following these lines of enquiries believe there are more. They use the analogy of cancer which in some circumstances may be quite useful and in other circumstances less helpful.

Therefore if we cannot define how many Autism ‘types’ it is difficult to construct a logical statement.

Are each of these phenotypes defined physiologically ?

Once again there is some evidence (CSF etc) but the medical definition eludes us at this time. There seems to be some evidence of certain genetic pathways, they may take in some circumstances, but this does not cover all ‘types’.

Therefore if we cannot define how the physiology of Autism ‘types’ it is difficult to construct a logical statement.

What is the aetiology of autism ?

Some aetiology we ‘believe’ we know for instance best evidence at this stage is some 16% is concerned with genes or their deletion. Fragile X for instance.

There seems to be a clearer causational relationship with rubella virus and Rutter notes cases associated with mumps virus. (Interesting)

Is it a single cause ? Is it multifactorial ?

The best evidence is that it is multifactorial.A number of ‘circumstances must be in place for a child to follow an aberrant developmental pathway that leads to “Autism” diagnosis. Place this in the concept of differing phenotypes and we can easily see “If MMR is causally related to either GI disturbances or AUT it should precede their onset.” This makes little logical sense such is the way it is framed

a + b = c

Is it genetic ? Is it environmental ? Is it genetic and environmental ?

All obvious confounders to “define” what autism is and how we could design science and statements around it.Once again remembering how the ‘logical’ statement was framed and how it cannot be pragmatically applied.

Does environment follow genetics ?

Or does genetics follow genes ?

Or is it even more complex environment expresses genes that then changes environment that expresses more genes ?

This is where it gets quite tricky … our best understanding is that “Autism ” is biologically driven by genetic expression and there is beginning to emerge some particular ‘hubs’ or gene clusters surrounding immune systems and/or neurological cell growth / death apopotosis.

Like a a giant “Matrix’ switchboard there are millions of combinations that are unique to each individual and this is even more complex as it can be “stimulated’ by differing environments , at differing times and differing intergenerational confounders. (Epigenetic inheritance).

Logical statements framed a + b = c no longer apply.

How are Autistic GI symptoms defined from non autistic GI symptoms ?

What GI symptoms do AUT patients commonly share with non AUT patients ?

Can a AUT patient have more than one GI symptom at a time ? Or over time ?

I’ve already covered the difficulties of defining “Autism” and the same applies here. It’s obvious by now that the inability to define … makes supposed ‘logical’ statements well irrelevant.

Is it the MMR vaccine or is it when the MMR vaccine is administered ? Is it the interval between other vaccines like DTaP ?

The research coming out of low income countries and researchers like Peter Aaby Bandim Health and the London School of Tropical Medicine is beginning to make us rethink vaccine administration. There are some very interesting studies that show that vaccine scheduling is an important factor in disease prevention and subsequent mortality. The biological mechanism are not fully understood. But what we do know is that differing events will generally take place when vaccines are administered in differing orders / schedules sometimes to the overall benefit and sometimes to an overall deficit. Which may include increases or decreases in child mortality adn obviously disease development.

Generally it is felt that measles vaccines may be beneficial but because other vaccines are seen as detrimental and can be confounded by other health interventions we have a long time in unpicking the tangled web that is vaccine administration.

The effects are called non-specific simply because we used to think in terms of specificity. That is clearly not so … for instance

“Among normal-weight children, DTP vaccination was associated with an increase in C. pneumoniae infection for females, whereas the trend was the opposite among males” Bandim 2010

The strongest tendencies for more febrile diseases and hospitalisations in the MV + DTP + OPV group were found in girls. Overall, growth did not differ by randomisation group. However, results differed by sex. Girls in the MV + DTP + OPV group had a consistent pattern of worse z-scores for weight, height, and mid-upper-arm-circumference (MUAC) than girls in the MV + OPV group.

The effect was opposite for boys, with boys in the MV + OPV group faring worse than those in the MV + DTP + OPV group, the interaction test for sex and DTP being significant for weight at 6 and 9 months, for MUAC at 12 months and for weight-for-height at 3 and 9 months after randomisation. Conclusion: This is the first randomised trial of the non-specific effects of DTP and supports that these effects may be sex-differential and of clinical and anthropometric importance. Combined vaccination with DTP + MV + OPV may be detrimental for girls.

Which just makes it even more complex as we now see differing effects for gender. So when we look back at that “logical statement” does it apply to males or females or ?

Is MMR protective for most individuals but not in some individuals ?

Taking into account all that has been said previously and the evidence from various studies that showed a very small beneficial effect for MMR / Autism whilst Wakfield shows us a negative effect. One may surmise that differing biologies , environment and circumstances may play major to minor factors on autism and GI aetiology and progress.

In some children it may be that because of their genetic ‘composition’,environment, their epigenetic inheritance”, their gender, previous vaccines administered and the length of time between vaccines may be very much beneficial or alternatively deleterious.

“If MMR is causally related to either GI disturbances or AUT it should precede their onset.”

Just think of it as a giant pachinko parlour.

krebiozen

Measles virus RNA detected in the gut of one autistic child and one control. How could “very clear adjustments” make that support the idea that MMR causes autism?

It would depend on whether that is an important observation related to a biological mechanism or not.

Who was it who wrote the following?

Let me remind you of … does not good science make.