Jenny McCarthy plans to ring in 2012 with antivaccine propaganda on Dick Clark’s Rockin’ New Year’s Eve

Orac, it looks like an HTML tag in the first paragraph is mangled.

Looks fine on the webpage but is mangled in Google Reader, for some reason.

Orac – thanks for the mention of my attempt to get some kind of response from the AoA crowd about “acceptable” vaccines. I realized from the beginning it would most likely be an exercise in futility, but Jake did make the statement that he isn’t “anti-vaccine,” so he should be able to come up with at least one that he’s for (and I even gave them a cheap out by mentioning rabies & tetanus, but no takers).

I am interested to know why it is acceptable for America to sit through a half hour NBC Nightly News program (or any main stream media channel for that matter) and be bombarded with direct to consumer marketing ads which spew pharmaceutical drugs such as Celebrex, Chantix, Celexa, Cymbalta, Lunesta,etc. (all in one show) while listing all their side effects—Yet NVIC airs an ad regarding informed choice for parents and automatically their “purpose of this Times Square ad is clearly to get people to go to the NVIC website and drink of the antivaccine crazy therein.” Would it be better for NVIC to just go ahead and list the side effects of vaccines right there on the ad like pharmaceutical companies do when marketing drugs on television? Why shouldn’t parents have the right to know the side effects of vaccines, even if they are considered rare by the AAP and CDC?
I guess my question is: Why is it called “informed consent” when pharmaceutical companies do it, but it’s called “fear-mongering” or “misinformed consent” when it comes to vaccination? Maybe pharmaceutical companies should air side effects and safety information on vaccination when promoting vaccines like they do for all other drugs? Then NVIC wouldn’t have to and this discussion would be nil.
Are the packet inserts that come with the vaccines considered “informed consent or fear-mongering” in your mind?
My questions are indeed sincere.

After AJW was struck-off, invitations to mainstream television shows became few and far between: now anti-vaxxers need to *pay* for air-time in planes, theatres, and outdoor venues. I wonder how this devolution will continue.

re Lawrence: I find it hilarious that, in a post where Jake complains about being *thrown out* of the discussion by Evil Vaccine Propagandists, AoA then proceeds to throw out Lawrence’s attempt to question the party-line. Don’t they *see* this _at all_? -btw- I love it!

Ridiculously, alt med proselytisers attempt to ride upon the coat-tails of the anti-corporate movement: Occupy Pharma! And while this might appeal to liberal types they simultaneously cast out libertarian bait by harping on health freedom. Giving new meaning to the expression “talking out of both sides of their mouths”.

This saga about the advertisement of nonsense provides merriment in a week that otherwise would be frustrating as I do my year’s end clean-up of financial data ( you don’t want to know) and write up my summary. At least I have something to laugh about.

It’s everyone’s fault, really. If society provided better career options for former nude models, they wouldn’t have to turn to a life of pseudoscience. Poor Jenny McCarthy wouldn’t have to whore out her brain to quackery-associated corrupt organizations like Generation Rescue (sadly, there is no QuACO act). Ron Jeremy wouldn’t have to turn to a life of hawking fake penis pills. And god help us all if Dr Oz’s career travels in the other direction.

@ Lisa: Haven’t you heard…that nightly news is a commercial television outlet and is full of non-news items including commercials for OTC and direct-to-consumers drug ads? Easy way “around” this on commercial TV is to record your commercial TV programs…then “zap” all the ads.

When were you last given an immunization…and why didn’t you read the VIS (Vaccine Information Sheet) that is provided before you consent to the vaccine? You can also read and print current VISs from the CDC website.

“My questions are indeed sincere”.

When were you last given an immunization…and why didn’t you read the VIS (Vaccine Information Sheet) that is provided before you consent to the vaccine?

You know, in my adult memory, I’ve never been offered a VIS with an immunization, and it’s not for lack of getting them.

@Narad – I agree. I don’t recall ever being given a VIS. On the other hand, I’ve never asked for one either – nor would I. I’ve been getting vaccinations all my life (far more than average, since I was a military dependent living overseas), have no history of adverse reactions and am not concerned about the vanishingly small odds of having one.

There is no life without some risk.

Except the NVIC actually imploys misinformed consent. There is a difference.

(NVIC finally updated its pertussis/whooping cough page, and it is full of subterfuge, with selective quoting of the VIS that excises the word “rare cases” and with cherry picked studies in its poorly formatted list of references that ignores all of the recent studies that show the DTaP does not cause encephalopathy, and is protective against SIDS.)

@ Narad: Providing a VIS for each vaccine administered to a child or adult is a requirement according to the NCVIA (National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act).

The VISs are available in English and in many other languages and the NCVIA law is applicable to all vaccines that are on the current “Recommended Childhood Vaccines Schedule”…it includes influenza vaccine, as well.

There are VISs for all “other” vaccines that are licensed in the USA, as well…such as adult pneumococcal vaccine, shingles vaccine, rabies vaccine, yellow fever vaccine, typhoid vaccine, Japanese encephalitis vaccine, etc.

I do know that pediatricians, family practice physicians and public health clinicians do provide the VISs…”other” doctors should follow the law…it constitutes “informed consent” and informs parents and other recipients of vaccines what minor benign reactions might occur after vaccination.

Fear mongering, treating people like they are stupid, “my way is the only way”. These are the thoughts of those who do not want the truth out there.

Why are you trying to silence anyone who does not agree with you? I want to hear both sides. I want to know the risks and benefits before I commit to something. That should be simple and easily allowed.

This article uses the tactic of name calling and demonizing people who don’t agree with you, it’s shameful. Let their voice be heard and let the people decide who to listen to. What are you afraid of?

Some vaccines may be useful, but not when the companies making them even say they are not sure whether they are safe or effective.

My kids have been healthier all their lives than ALL the kids I know who have had all their 20 to 44 vaccinations. Most of those kids have had ear problems, ear infections and high fevers with rushes to the emergency room several times. My husband has been healthier than me, I had my shots as a kid, he did not.

People should be able to choose, not have something forced upon them that could cause serious life long illnesses; with no compensation from those who caused it. Let the debate happen. Let ALL the facts get out. Let people hear from those who have been effected.

there is a good, small article about the side effects of the flu vaccine at http://www.allnaturalhealthylife.com/news/side-effects-of-flu-vaccine/. What’s wrong with being informed?

@Michelle

Why are you trying to silence anyone who does not agree with you? I want to hear both sides.

Perhaps you would like to hear Fred Phelps explain the other side of homosexuality? While he has the right to believe what he wants about this topic, he is not entitled to make up his own facts. It is perfectly reasonable to oppose him if he tries to spread his propaganda. Similarly, the NVIC should be opposed when they try to spread their misinformation. If you want informed consent, you need truth and factual information, not distortions.

I want to know the risks and benefits before I commit to something. That should be simple and easily allowed.

Hey, so do I! And it is allowed. All you need to do is take a look at the real evidence, not someone’s cherry-picked, misquoted nonsense.

My kids have been healthier all their lives than ALL the kids I know who have had all their 20 to 44 vaccinations. Most of those kids have had ear problems, ear infections and high fevers with rushes to the emergency room several times. My husband has been healthier than me, I had my shots as a kid, he did not.

Other than the fact that no one here can verify whether what you say is true or not, I’ll take you at face value and say, congratulations! You’ve been lucky. And, you’ve been largely protected from serious disease by everyone else around you who has been vaccinated.

People should be able to choose

Agreed. And they can choose whether to be vaccinated (thus protecting themselves and those around them) or not (putting themselves and those around them at increased risk of infection).

not have something forced upon them

They aren’t, really. There are options for those who wish to avoid protecting themselves and others. All but two states have some sort of philosophical or religious exemption. Even barring those, there’s the option of homeschooling your children. The only time children are required to get their immunizations is when they attend a school or day care, where there is an increased risk of disease transmission. But even then, the aforementioned exemptions are available.

that could cause serious life long illnesses

As opposed to the serious lifelong illnesses and/or death that diseases bring at a much higher rate than any vaccine, yes?

with no compensation from those who caused it

Actually, they can receive compensation. The VICP compensates those who are injured by vaccines, and the vaccine makers pay a fee into the funding pool for the program.

Let the debate happen.

Okay. You bring your science to the table, I’ll bring mine. And, go!

Let people hear from those who have been effected.

Wait, do you mean people who have truly been affected or are we including anyone who thinks they’ve been affected? Oh, and we should also include those who have been affected by the diseases prevented by vaccines. Of course, some of those can’t speak because, well, they’re dead, but their families can share their stories. A good site is Shot by Shot.

For all these woo-pushers, probably being generated wholesale by Age of Censorship, I offer the following phrase for pretty much everything you’ve said:

[citation needed]

Michelle–
People are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts. The safety and effectiveness of vaccines is supported by mountains of data and scientific study. The side effects are rare, known, and documented.
The NVIC site, much like your “good, small article,” is full of half-truths, full lies, misinterpretation, faulty logic, and wild speculation. This is not the material from which to make a informed and important decision. Look at the AAP, CDC, and Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia websites (among other reputable ones). The vast majority of public health and medical practitioners support vaccines: not because they have been “bought out” or they are part of some “vast conspiracy,” but because they have seen the data and know that the benefits greatly outweigh the risks.
Science can be tricky. Our educational system doesn’t teach people enough about critical thinking, how to weigh sources and compare arguments. Fear and emotion, anecdotes, and appeals to “teach the controversy” and “present both sides”–these are useful techniques when debating politics, or religion, or other issues that lack a clear, objective right and wrong. Or, for Barbara Loe Fisher, issues that don’t go they way they want. (Kinda like Stephen Colbert’s quote that “reality has a liberal bias.”) Science may not be infallible–neither are its practitioners–but the process itself can’t be beat. And the science is very clear about the risks and benefits on vaccines, and why vaccinating kids is the right thing to do.

Steph, I think you need a new pediatrician.

However, that does not change the situation that your argument makes no sense. There have been heaps of studies that HAVE ruled out any association between autism and vaccines. You say don’t rule anything out until you know the cause? Does that include things that have been shown NOT to have any link? Things like vaccines, breathing air drinking water and being born on a day ending in Y?

I can’t get too excited about this latest ad by the National Anti-Vaccine Information Center. After all, it’s aimed at crowds in Times Square, right?

I prefer they target people who like to congregate outdoors, rather than theater-goers and airline passengers. I’m far more likely to catch flu or other vaccine-preventable bugs from newly minted antivaxers in a closed indoor setting.

“My kids have been healthier all their lives than ALL the kids I know who have had all their 20 to 44 vaccinations.”

You should be effusively thanking all the responsible parents who had their kids vaccinated. It’s because of them that your kids have been allowed to benefit from herd immunity and (so far) avoid potentially devastating vaccine-preventable illnesses.

@Lisa

While I agree that CDC and AAP could do better at informing people, keep in mind that they do a lot of other things, as well, and do not have propaganda as a central function in the way NVIC does. They have less freedom to pursue such efforts (unless they don’t mind hampering efforts in other areas), not to mention that they are constrained by having to adhere to truth and fact. Remember, planting a seed of doubt and fear is incredibly easy to do and conversely extremely difficult to combat.

So, while I agree that agencies like the CDC and AAP need to do more at educating people, there is also a place for folks like you or I to fight misinformation when it pops up. Ms. Fisher is guaranteed the right to say whatever she likes; what she is not guaranteed is a forum in which to do so. In fact, anyone from whom she buys time/space to spread her misinformation should be informed of just what they are allowing to appear under their aegis, don’t you agree?

Put it this way, using my Fred Phelps example above, suppose someone less well-known from his organization buys time on the TSQ digital display to air some of the Westboro Baptist Church’s misinformed ideology in a fashion similar to the NVIC’s, directing people to their own web site, where consumers will find skewed and distorted prose. Would you say that it is inappropriate to inform the owners/managers of that display about the content of the message? Why is it any different in this case, especially when, if the NVIC’s message is seen broadly, the consequences for public health could be very dire indeed?

The author of this blog is obviously ignorant, unintelligent and unoriginal. I’ll bet he actually believes that vaccines were responsible for wiping out infectious diseases.

And remember, nothing says “original” like doing a half-assed job of regurgitating low-rent antivax tropes.

Why do I get the sneaking suspicion that we have a morphing troll on our hands?

Maybe AoA just sprang a leak or something.

One more thing….why worry about “unvaccinated” kids getting “vaccinated” kids sick…they have been vaccinated so aren’t they safe? Is that not the entire point of the vaccine to begin with??

@Nikki

NVIC promotes MISinformed consent. Take a closer look at their site and you will find that there are subtle omissions in the information provided, as well as distorted presentations of information (e.g., they have a memorial wall for allegedly vaccine injured individuals, but nothing about those harmed by vaccine-preventable diseases; also see how they promote the myth that Gardasil causes death).

As to the VISs, they are not being withheld. Some doctors are very good about handing them out. Every year that I’ve gotten my flu shot, I’ve received an up to date VIS about it. Other doctors may forget to give them out. However, all of the VISs are readily available on the CDC and AAP web sites. Furthermore, all of the vaccine inserts are available from the CDC, FDA and the manufacturers. The information is readily available and parents/patients should take the time to read them.

Why not have a real discussion on the risks instead of saying there are none but not giving those inseets?

We would welcome a real discussion of risks. Unfortunately, places like the NVIC, Age of Autism and the like distort the risks of vaccines and play down the risks of diseases. We cannot have an honest discussion when they do stuff like that.

nVIC has every right to post what they want where they want

See my counter examples above. To add to what I said earlier, do I have the right to have my message broadcast on, say, CBS, regardless of what CBS thinks of what I have to say? Do I have the right to go on the CBS evening news and spend 5, 10, 15 minutes talking about how person X is a vile, child-murdering psychopath, regardless of the facts and in spite of CBS not wanting to sell me airtime? Do I have the right to come into your home and expound on some topic, regardless of the fact that it is your private property? Free speech has limits, and while I will say that NVIC has the right to say what they want, I also have the right to say that they are wrong, wrong, wrong.

@Nikki

One more thing….why worry about “unvaccinated” kids getting “vaccinated” kids sick…they have been vaccinated so aren’t they safe? Is that not the entire point of the vaccine to begin with??

You are falling into the Nirvana fallacy here. In other words, you seem to be saying that vaccines are either 100% effective or 0% effective, with no in-between. While many vaccines approach 100% efficacy, there is always the chance that, for one reason or another, some individual will not gain immunity from it, just like some individuals do not gain immunity from natural infection.

You are also ignoring those individuals who, for medical reason, cannot be vaccinated. So, those who are capable of being vaccinated but choose not to are putting those individuals at risk, as well. If you want an expanded discussion on this, read this post.

Ah, yes. Habitual hypocrisy, right Dave?

I love how you address all points except for the fact that parents have a right to be informed…period. I do not care if you think the insert is boring..that is but your opinion..as a parent I have the right to know how everything I choose to give…and not give…my child impacts her health. I would never allow a surgery for my daughter without knowing the risks….I have the right to know.

Doctors make mistakes, they are NOT God like creatures….it is up to the parent to be informed of the risks and make the right decision for their family….whether you agree with it or not…because at the end of the day…you do not know the family’s history or issues…example….does autism run in the family…history of immune issues etc.

I just wonder how quickly anyone here would jump the fence and become NVICs biggest supporter if their child was injured or God forbid killed by a vaccine when they were not ever told that was a possibility when getting the shot.

Oh…one more thing on the whole freedom of speech thing…the constitution does not specify what can and cant be said or where and how it is said…hence the word freedom. Haven’t you watched the news lately…many opinions there on CNN, MSNBC, Fox etc….if you do not like the message change the channel…period.

@Nikki,
Do you believe parents are being kept from reliable information about vaccines? Actually, the information is freely available: go to the CDC, go to the manufacturers’ websites, go to your doctor’s office.
Now, if you believe the NVIC is a source of reliable information, that’s a whole ‘nother issue.

On a side note, it almost seems like Nikki is trying to abridge our rights to ask the owners of the digital display to not run the NVIC ad.

@ToddW

I agree. I think that it is appropriate for NVIC to inform the owners/managers of the display about the content of the message. Although, it can lead to censorship and I am not privy to those laws so I can’t really comment as to the nature of the relationship between advertiser and advertisee per say.

I also believe the CDC and AAP should be “constrained by having to adhere to truth and fact” since they are government agencies set up to protect public health. Although, it would favor them to start educating the public and parents openly about the benefit and risk of vaccination no matter how small or large.

I personally think (and I hope you would agree) that by downplaying even the smallest risks associated with vaccines is hurting their agenda. This reason alone seems to represent why parents are out there searching for answers.

What do you think?

I think this subject is like religion. Belief has to come into it and different people lean towards different people. The fact that money comes into it doesn’t help either. I know for a fact that medical trials are often conducted badly and find it difficult to trust studies done by the companies themselves and the more I read the more anti I become. I do however find an absence of an advised immunization schedule from the anti side. I do not want to vaccinate until I am sure, rather than trusting what is pushed on me.

Nikki – I would never want you to be on the other side of the fence, as a parent to a child that suffered severe and permanent complications from childhood illness (like measles, mumps, pertussis, polio, etc).

@Lisa

I also believe the CDC and AAP should be “constrained by having to adhere to truth and fact” since they are government agencies set up to protect public health. Although, it would favor them to start educating the public and parents openly about the benefit and risk of vaccination no matter how small or large.

They are pretty open about the benefits and risks. They do sponsor some ads, but their budgets are understandably geared toward other things, like research, outbreak investigation and education of health providers. They can only do so much, so other organizations, like Every Child by Two, need to make an effort to help spread real information and combat the fear-mongering nonsense spewed by places like the NVIC.

I personally think (and I hope you would agree) that by downplaying even the smallest risks associated with vaccines is hurting their agenda.

But that’s the thing, they don’t downplay the risks. They, and all of us who value a science-based approach, readily acknowledge the risks and try to put the risks into perspective, i.e., looking at the risks of the vaccines, the risks of the diseases and the risks of no vaccine, as well as looking at the benefits of each. Rather, it is the anti-vaccine activists who try to paint vaccine supporters as saying that vaccines have no risks at all, like we deny that there are any risks.

This is the crux of what we’re trying to argue. As I said before, it is very easy to plant a seed of doubt in someone’s mind. When you place no value on truth, it is very easy to simply spout some “fact” without backing it up with evidence. Often, the explanation of why that “fact” is wrong takes far more time and effort than most people have.

@Nikki

Yes, doctors should be talking with their patients. They should be giving them proper information to enable them to make an informed choice about their own and their children’s health care. But when the patient/parent comes home and does go on the internet, they should be able to find reliable information, such as that provided by the CDC. Those who come across the NVIC site are being done a disservice. You say that if doctors did their jobs, then there would be no need for sites like the NVIC. To that I say, there is no need for a site like the NVIC, period. The only purpose it serves is to sow confusion and frighten people away from protecting themselves, their families and every person with whom they come into contact.

Tell me, what valid information is available on the NVIC site that is not already provided by the CDC or AAP?

I personally think (and I hope you would agree) that by downplaying even the smallest risks associated with vaccines is hurting their agenda. This reason alone seems to represent why parents are out there searching for answers.

I suppose it comes down to overplaying versus underplaying the risks. There are, if you’ll pardon my french, a shit-ton of groups out there that do nothing but overplay the risks – so in the atmosphere of panic they create, it’s hard for the CDC et al to say anything about the risks without it being taken as admission that the naysayers are completely right. The panickers are almost always the ones who start the conversations about risks, by bringing up the worst case scenarios, so the CDC seldom gets the opportunity to do anything but correct the statistics and do “damage control”.

(Sorry if this isn’t very coherent. I’m kind of out of it today. I tried to explain things the best I could. :P)

@claire…read about Dr. sears. He provides an alternate schedule for children that ensures they get all important shots, skip some, and spread them out. To me vaccines are not a black n white or all or nothing issue. There is a large gray area that allows us parents to spread them out which decreases the risk for injury while also protecting against many serious life threatening illnesses. A GOOD doctor would share this kind of thing with their patients and be open to questions. Perhaps if more doctors were open to this kind of dialogue then there would be no need for sites like NVIC. However…where we stand now sadly this is not the case. It is almost an “us” against “them” mindset and it does not have to be because both sides make valid points.

Obviously Nikki has not actually conversed with the average Pediatrician…..and Dr. Sears is a quack with no evidence to back up his so-called “schedule.”

Nikki, please explain that if NVIC wanted to fully inform parents why the left out the following references from their whooping cough page:

Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.
Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.

Vaccine. 2007 Jun 21;25(26):4875-9. Epub 2007 Mar 16.
Do immunisations reduce the risk for SIDS? A meta-analysis.

Expert Rev Vaccines. 2005 Apr;4(2):173-84.
Acellular pertussis vaccines in Japan: past, present and future.

Why is there so much aggression out there. People are trying to discuss this and stonewalling with rude remarks just confirms that people are scared to have their knowledge questioned. Thank you for your advice Nikki. One has no way of knowing how informed a doctor is. They usually only know the info given by the drug company because many are too busy to read both sides. I have spoken to many and no one has given me any indication they know much at all (let alone ingredients, DNA, aluminium Aduvant etc) yet they can recommend vaccination. Oh, and of course there is the line that they would immunise their child. As a nurse this is sales pitch I have heard many times. It does nothing to instill confidence. I will decide to vaccinate when I trust the opinion of someone who makes sense not patronising scare mongering comments. No one will be running to help me if My child is becomes an acceptable statistic.

Lisa, do you eat? Don’t you care about the risks involved in eating? Isn’t it safer not to eat and avoid risks through inaction?

Ahh the stupidity, it burns!

@Claire – Sorry about the snarkiness. To be honest, this site is mostly geared towards snark and trollfighting, so we kind of lay it on a bit thick when people with actual questions come here.

If you really want to know about the ingredients and whatnot, I’d recommend Paul Offit’s pages on the CHOP website. I know he’s got a reputation as an ~evil pharma shill~ on AoA and whatnot, but he’s actually not all that bad – he explains things in a way that’s easy to understand, and he backs up his claims with good solid evidence.

Ahh the stupidity, it burns!

Yeah, he’s probably so dumb that he thinks paralysis can be caused by something other than polio. Crazy, huh?

While Dr. Sears schedule may not be “researched”…which i doubt u know to be a fact….at least he is a Dr. Willing to do things a little differently and meet the pro vaccine folks in the middle. This is not an all or nothing issue and not one of you have gone to med school. No one here has any knowledge that is better than anyone else’s….it all came from the web. Well I just found a website selling ocean front property in AZ…should I believe that too just because it is on the web?
My point is that no..not everything on NVICs site rings true for me….but neither does the stuff on the CDCs site…or the FDA where most of its members are on the boards of the big pharma companies that make the vaccines……vaccines r big money and where that much money is involved..there will be corruption.
I agree with Lisa…the vaccines r not perfect and we know this…..be honest about the side affects, be open about them and let parents make their own choices…..informed consent. Again…if doctors were having these types of talks with their patients then NVIC would not have such a following because parents like myself would not feel the need to seek answers elsewhere…we’d be getting them from the doctors. So holding back and not being forthcoming has created a huge spring board for these kinds of websites.

As for the comment made to Lisa about eating….your body processes toxins taken into your mouth and breathed into your nose much differently than those injected directly into the blood. In addition, the amount of aluminum and mercury in the vaccinations is much higher than what the FDA and CDC admit are safe….to consume toxins at that level would not be easy.

Yeah, he’s probably so dumb that he thinks paralysis can be caused by something other than polio. Crazy, huh?

In India, where it is saturated with OPV, then it must be something else other than polio, yeah right.

Claire:

Why is there so much aggression out there. People are trying to discuss this and stonewalling with rude remarks just confirms that people are scared to have their knowledge questioned.

I don’t believe I have shown any aggression. Do you consider asking why NVIC leaves out crucial information on their website aggression? They list terrible things that they claim are caused by vaccines (which is scaremongering), but leave out the papers that show those fears are unfounded and that vaccines can prevent SIDS.

And are you really a nurse? If you are, what kind of food do you eat that does not have DNA? Also, do you only eat DNA free plants that have been grown in soil without feldspars (the most common mineral in soil that contains one of the most common elements on this planet’s crust, aluminum). Seriously.

@parent…that is the point of herd immunity yes? if ur child is not one of these kids then u have nothing to worry about cause ur kd is vaccinated…phew…they r safe!

Seatbelts and vaccines….grabbing at straws there….two totally different issues. You are not injecting toxins at staggering levels directly into the blood by putting on a seatbelt.

Want to talk about fear mongering…..Paul offitt admits that fear is the way to get parents to vaccinate….and he has made tens of millions of dollars creating vaccines…..so he creates them….gives them to innocent kids without openly sharing their risks…then profits from that…and no one sees a conflict of interest there? You say Dr. Sears is a quack…Paul Offit is the devil! He says “some must die to protect the herd” and that is ok?

Okay Nikki – now you are just regurgitating the standard AoA talking points.

And vaccines aren’t injected into the bloodstream – despite what Insane Troll might tell you (and what about nasal or oral vaccines?).

AoA has patented using fear to battle vaccines – tell me they don’t.

Lawrence:

Okay Nikki – now you are just regurgitating the standard AoA talking points.

Along with the txt-speak and ellipses. Yikes.

Claire said: “One has no way of knowing how informed a doctor is. They usually only know the info given by the drug company because many are too busy to read both sides…Oh, and of course there is the line that they would immunise their child. As a nurse this is sales pitch I have heard many times. It does nothing to instill confidence.”

Maybe they tell you that because it’s the truth – physicians know that vaccination is important to their children’s health and well-being. I haven’t seen any recent surveys on how closely physicians in the U.S. follow the recommended vaccine schedule, but this one from Switzerland found that 92% of pediatricians did so.

ht_p://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=pediatrician%20immunize%20own%20children

It’s unfortunate that there are outliers who buy into vaccine scaremongering (such as Drs. Sears and Gordon), but the physicians I’ve talked to know better. Among them was my father, who began having children during the height of the post-WWII polio epidemic and was grateful for the vaccine that lifted the fear of his kids being paralyzed by polio. We mostly got the typical childhood infectious diseases of the time (it was before vaccines were developed for most of them) but it was not because he didn’t use the best available tools to keep us safe.

It is disheartening that a nurse would consider leaving her own children unprotected due to a need to weigh “both sides” – as though there was a “side” with evidence sufficient to contradict what we know about the efficacy and safety of vaccines.

@missmayinga

I understand the logic of a mandate. Although, I think seat belt vs vaccine mandate is a tough sell. For one, a seat belts known risks include maybe a strap mark on the flesh, not seizures or induced encephalitis. I do understand you pointing out the risks of not using a seat belt being greater as compared to the greater risks of foregoing vaccination, but I still think they’re not comparable on the same level.

Lisa @92 —

No, seat belts do have risks, not just strap marks. You could be trapped in a burning car, or pinned in place during a side impact (it happened to a great uncle of mine), or who knows what. People who don’t like seat belts tend to cite scenarios like this when they’re arguing against seat belt laws.

The analogy is actually a very good one — for every “adverse event” caused by a seat belt, they save hundreds of lives — people who would catapult through the windshield, be ejected from a rolling car and crushed underneath, and so on and so on. The risk ratios for vaccines are probably not that dissimilar.

@ Lawrence: Surprise…your comment made it out of moderation at AoA…and two people commented on it. I especially like the b.s. about tetanus boosters not be necessary.

@ Claire: Were you absent from class when immunology, infectious diseases and immunizations were taught. Did you not do rotations in pediatric departments of hospitals? Don’t tell me you weren’t required to take organic and inorganic chemistry courses in college. Just how did you pass your your nursing boards?

I see the SFB troll is back. Please do not feed delusional etc., etc. It needs “terminal disinfection”.

@98 & 99

Very good points.

I guess I should clarify. The act of putting on a seat belt is noninvasive, where as the act of vaccine injection into the muscle is invasive. I am assuming these are the reasons parents do not see a seat belt mandate as comparable to a vaccine mandate or risks for seat belts as comparable to risks for vaccination.

I was trying to play devil’s advocate and probably shouldn’t have made the point.

@tbruce….no..he can make a profit…however…it is a major conflict of interest for him to create a vaccine with known side effects then hide those side effects from unknowing babies to make that profit. Sine you must have taken Offits vaccine I say this to you…I am an idiot but you think it is healthy and normal to inject monkey kidney and toxins into your blood all to prevent diareah when a good probiotic can do the same……geez.

At lilady…r u a doctor? What are your credentials to be downing Claire and her course work? What degree do you hold?

no..he can make a profit…however…it is a major conflict of interest for him to create a vaccine with known side effects then hide those side effects from unknowing babies to make that profit.

Except that Dr. Offit did nothing of the sort. He did not “hide side effects” in order to make a profit. That is a very serious charge, and I’d be more than willing to bet that you have no evidence to back it up.

Oh, and I agree with lilady. The texting schtick in your comments is truly annoying. It’s fine for texting, but in the comments of a blog it just makes you look dim. You could be the most brilliant person here, and we’d never know it because of the way you choose to present yourself with the texting schtick.

Well, that and your truly misinformed bit about “monkey kidneys.” Come on, that’s an antivax talking point so ridiculous that even Barbara Loe Fisher doesn’t use it, as far as I can tell. Next you’ll be regurgitating the “fetal tissue in vaccines” talking point. I’ll preempt it here: There’s a huge difference between cell lines derived decades ago and tissue.

Monkey kidneys? For crying out loud.

And yes…nikki…grownups…don’t…post…like…this…it’s…really…tiresome…kthxbai.

@Nikki

Actually, I do know for a fact that Dr. Sears’ schedule is not based on any science. He has admitted so himself, as I said before.

.be honest about the side affects, be open about them and let parents make their own choices…..informed consent.

That’s what we are trying to do! We are being honest about the side effects. Did you not read anything that I posted already? We want parents to be informed. The problem is that places like NVIC and Age of Autism (AoA) spread misinformation that muddies the waters, propagating myths and misinformation, as well as groundless fear.

As for the comment made to Lisa about eating….your body processes toxins taken into your mouth and breathed into your nose much differently than those injected directly into the blood. In addition, the amount of aluminum and mercury in the vaccinations is much higher than what the FDA and CDC admit are safe….to consume toxins at that level would not be easy.

So you’re saying that toxins in food are not absorbed into the bloodstream? That’ll be news to all the biologists out there. Where you seem to be misinformed is that there are significantly more toxins (definition, please) in vaccines than in your food. Let’s take mercury as an example, since you bring it up.

The type of mercury in vaccines is ethylmercury. It is eliminated from the body in about a week or so. The type of mercury most common in foods (and in air pollution) is methylmercury. It takes weeks to months to be eliminated from your body, giving it more time to build up, and is significantly more toxic to the body than is ethylmercury. What’s more, nearly all of the mercury contained in food gets absorbed into the bloodstream. Eating a single can of tuna exposes you to several times the amount of the less toxic ethylmercury that is found in some (not all) vaccines.

Likewise, aluminum is present in a lot of foods, including breast milk, not to mention dust (both on the ground and breathed in from the air). While not as readily absorbed via the digestive tract as methylmercury, the sheer volume of aluminum that is present means that normal daily exposure is significantly higher than in vaccines, which typically do not continue hour after hour, day after day. And then you have large volume parenteral nutrition, for which the FDA limits on aluminum exposure were drafted. LVP products are given intravenously (i.e., directly into the bloodstream), meaning that all of the aluminum they contain courses through the body. LVPs are given for several days, and by the end of the average course, the patient will have been exposed to more than twice the amount found in an aluminum-adjuvant-containing vaccine. Then there’s the fact that it only takes about 5 days for the body to eliminate about 70% of the aluminum.

A lot of the things you’ve been saying in this thread are common anti-vaccine myths. You may want to take a look at this site to see why they are myths.

Nikki – I raise your Google University with PubMed. You really should have some idea of what you’re posting before you do.

Monkey kidneys in rotavirus…yup you can google and find that little factoid. Not many here are open to a real discussion.

They are not injected into ur nose-body processes, toxins taken into ur nose. Period: web.

@Nikki

Orac…do you know Offit personally to know what he did and did not do? Have you ever spoken to him or are you saying he did not do that because it is hard to believe that someone would do such a thing.

I believe Orac asked you for evidence. Funny, though, the same questions you ask of Orac could be turned back at you. Do you know Dr. Offit personally to know what he did and did not do? Clearly, since you do not provide any evidence that he did cover up side effects, then you must have spoken to him personally to know that he did such a thing. Sorry, but the rest of us prefer evidence over “because I said so”. So, your evidence, please?

As to the monkey kidney thing, saying that the rotavirus vaccine contains monkey kidneys is like saying that the fried egg you had for breakfast contains frying pan. They are not taking monkey kidneys and grinding them up into a soup to inject into kids. See, parroting crap like that that you read on some anti-vaccine site just makes you sound, well, stupid. You say you have a PhD in education. Certainly you must have learned to do actual research before making claims, no?

@ missmayinga

The seatbelt argument may be a bit dicey.

Research by John Adams of the University of London (University College IIRC) and Gerry Wilde of Queen’s University, Kingston Ontario Canada (probably, among others) suggest that seatbelts are not the panacea we would like to think.

The arguements are a bit complex but at least one is that ‘perceived’ increased safety to drivers can result in harm to pedestrians (and passengers? It’s been 2-4 years since I read that study).

I’m on a Linux machine, not my normal Windows machine so cannot grab the exact cites. However,the Adams paper on the Swedish seatbelt law should be easily googled.

I do NOT have a degree in any field of medicine. I have a PHd in education. My experience with vaccines comes from personal experience from vaccine injuries. When a loved one is hurt by something that could have been prevented, it is hard to swallow and live with.

@science mom….what is the harm in spreading out vaccines? It is a known fact that they are grouped together only to ensure the majority of the herd gets them. Make it easy for mom by giving them all at once and baby gets shots.

I regress back to my original argument because I know I will never convince any of you that vaccines are bad….and that really is not what I am trying to do. My original point in posting here is that all doctors should be 100% open and honest about what is in the vaccines…so that u all know about monkey kidneys for one reason….but also so you know about ALL toxins and the amount you are injecting into your child’s blood….then you as a parent should also be told of the risk of not vaccinating…then you should have the freedom to make a decision. That folks is called informed consent and I bet the majority of you can agree that this did not happen when you took your kids to get their shots.

Really Orac? Put Jenny McCarthy aside, what problem could you actually have with NVIC’s message? Vaccines do pose a risk…just read the package insert. Is it the choice thing that gets you so hot and bothered? Maybe you believe the gov’t has a right to take away our choice in deciding what does and does not go into our bodies. Maybe it’s the “our family” part…maybe you believe the gov’t has the right to decide what medical treatments are forced on our children for the grater good rather than parents deciding what is best for their individual child. What ever the case….I think most logical and critically thinking individuals would find your irrational response to NVIC’s add a bit shrill and over the top.

Lol….one final thing to fuss about because you all can not find fault in the facts I (CLAIM TO) have presented. Monkey kidneys in rotavirus…(VACCINE, YOU FOOL) yup you can google (OR ASK NIKKI TO REACH INTO THE NETHER REGION OF HER ANATOMY) and find that little factoid. Not many of the (TROLLS AND SOCK PUPPETS) here are open to a real discussion. Many of (THE TROLLS AND SOCK PUPPETS) seem to know what you know……but sadly that is all you know! I don’t give a poop what RENs (OR ANYONE ELSE’S) credentials are…that still gives (NO ONE) no right to ASSUME what ones world views are. You know what they say about (DOCTORATES IN EDUCATION).

That makes (NIKKI) look more stupid than (HER) text typing….which (SHE DOES) because (SHE IS) using an iPad….I have a doctoral degree in education so I am far from (BEING EDUCATED IN THE SCIENCES AND FAR FROM HAVING ANY “CREDENTIALS).

-FTFY “Doctor” Nikki

@Chris

I am not here to debate side effects. It’s a fact. Vaccines have them. Read a product insert.

I believe this post was about public advertising and informed choice.

The seat belt analogy got away from me-I clarified @ post 101

Well, Nikki, for someone who claims to want more information, you sure seem to be able to spout a lot of it (albeit mostly wrong). “Vaccine injuries”…”toxins”…this is not open discussion or innocent inquiry, this is inflammatory antivax propaganda. You keep talking about “informed consent”–well, since I am a practicing pediatrician, I’ll tell you just what I would tell any anxious parent:
“Studies have repeatedly shown vaccines to be very safe, and not linked to any long term side effects. Some children can get a mild fever, or some fussiness, after shots. Rarely shots can cause a high fever, a prolonged crying fit (about 3 hours), or even a febrile seizure. These are certainly distressing to the parent but cause no lasting harm to the baby.
Now, on the other hand, vaccines are very effective–though not 100%–at preventing serious infectious diseases, many of which are still around here in the US. We hardly see H. flu meningitis, pneumococcal meningitis, measles, and other diseases thanks to vaccines, though there still are a few cases every year. The vaccines are given to infants because they are most vulnerable at that age, before they develop stronger immune systems; so deciding not to give a certain vaccine at the recommended time means that your child will still be vulnerable to getting these diseases. I can tell you that I recommend the vaccine schedule as per the CDC and AAP, because I know the science and research and reasons in that schedule; so if you decided to do something differently, you would have to decide what diseases you are willing to risk. Do you have any questions? Or have you decided what you will do today?”
Of course, that’s the 2-minute version, a succinct summary of the pros and cons. There are various other minutiae that quite frankly are so rare or obscure that they’re not relevant–and some of which are even spelled out on the standard CDC Vaccine Information Sheet that is given at each visit anyway.
Does that answer some of your questions?

stop with the malarkey before we institute a Nikkibot

Ahem.

Too quick! I missed it! Insta indeed.

Well stu…spreading them out or skipping them is my right…so I guess u will just have to deal with that or move to a location that is primarily vaccinated.

As for my personal experiences…careful not to spit to high there. You may one day have to walk in my families shoes and then you will see how important our own experiences can quickly become. There is another side to your theory.

As for what toxins….are you serious or just that ill informed? How about formaldehyde in flu shots? Squalene…Aluminum….animal tissue cells….and the list goes on and on and on. And you are right the shots do not go directly into your vein….i am sorry that you are being so literal and i did not make my point more clear. However…when injected into the muscle and fatty tissues they’re absorbed and metabolized into the blood directly. One does not need a degree in medicine to know this.

As for a nikkibot…bring it on and give me a break..really? Look…I just commented on this because I have a right to be informed..to say no…and to spread them out whether you like it or not. Hey..if your kid is vaccinated and they work so well you do not need to worry about my unvaccinated kid gettin your kid sick right. To be concerned makes your entire argument flawed. Either the shots work or they don’t..period. Why give them if there is still this risk of getting the disease? Cracks me up when vaccinated kids get the virus any way then the Dr. Says…oh it would have been so much worse if not for the magic shot..holy crap r they psychic? How can they predict what a humans immune system could have or would have done. As for my unvaccinated kid giving other kids a virus..she can not spread what she does not have. How can she spread polio to an unvaccinated kid when she does not have polio?

Bottom line…if the government steps in and makes you have shots…what next will they make you do for the greater good of the rest of the country? Maybe they will tell u that u can’t drink beer…or drive a truck because it burns too much gas and we all need our fair share…blahblahblah.

“And you are right the shots do not go directly into your vein….i am sorry that you are being so literal and i did not make my point more clear.”

It’s our fault for noticing when you attempt to put misrepresent the facts? Even by antivax standards that’s pretty arrogant.

“Maybe they will tell u that u can’t drink beer.”

Indeed. Next thing you know that damned government will say that you can’t drive drunk.

Perhaps my very favorite passage from Dashiell Hammett’s work is from his story The Golden Horseshoe:

I was reading a sign high on the wall behind the bar:

ONLY GENUINE PRE-WAR AMERICAN AND BRITISH WHISKEYS SERVED HERE

I was trying to count how many lies could be found in those nine words, and had reached four, with promise of more …

I have been reminded of that Tijuana bar many times, but never more piquantly than just now, when I read “injecting toxins at staggering levels directly into the blood.” There are at least four lies in those nine words, with promise of more.

It is possible that Nikki will feel disrespected (if that’s the word) by my observation. I hope not, since I strive never to give offense, unless there’s some fun in it. But it is impossible, knowing something about a subject, to respect someone who knows nothing about it, who tries actively to learn wrong things about it, who despises those who do know something about it, and who takes offense when that abject, willful, belligerent ignorance is pointed out. Just sayin’.

How about formaldehyde in flu shots?

How about it? How about you look up how much it actually is, cupcake?

if the government steps in and makes you have shots…what next will they make you do for the greater good of the rest of the country?

Get car insurance?
Not drive drunk?
Not smoke around your kids?
Not build a nuclear reactor in my back yard?

What part of not endangering others are you having trouble with? By your logic, if I build a breeder reactor in my back yard, my neighbors should just move if they have a problem with it, right?

Orac…NVIC does not claim that the DTaP vaccine is more dangerous than the disease. Their position is that the vaccine comes with risks and that consumers have the right to know the risks vs. benefits and make their own choice. The studies you posted do not translate to “no risk” associated with the vaccines. Also, when FDA determines that a drug is “safe” that does not mean without risk. Their definition is benefit outweighs risk….i.e. risk still exists and consumers have a right to know what the risks are.

@baglady

Did you already call the network to protest?

@Asshat

Why do you care?

Bob Schecter,

Is it weird if I write that I missed you? Haven’t seen you around here in a while. I try to read your stuff on AoA but the censorship over there (of which I’m sure you disapprove) gives me nosebleeds. How the hell are you, anyway?

Your post has a lot of adjectives and emotional statements and no references to respected sources. I believe that is the definition of what you call pseudo-science.

On the other hand, if you look at NVIC’s website it is all backed up by published studies. If you have a problem with the studies these studies, perhaps you should write to the publisher.

I really don’t see anything wrong with encouraging people to find out whether vaccines are good or bad for them. It is inconceivable that they would be good for everyone. I was never warned and it turns out vaccines are very very bad for me. I almost died because I was never warned. I did not know vaccines could do that.

@Mimi

Quick question. Do the CDC, AAP, NIH, WHO use “a lot of adjectives and emotional statements and no references to respected sources”?

YES OR NO

If no, they why do they completely oppose what Barb et al are trying to do (which is to discourage vaccination overall)? Does the NVmIC know something that well-respected public health and medicine authorities don’t know?

If yes, can you point me to such postings? Thank you.

Nikki,
People claiming that formaldehyde in vaccines is toxic is a personal bugbear of mine, so when you write:

How about formaldehyde in flu shots?

I have to point out that a flu vaccine contains 0.1 milligrams of formaldehyde, yet your body (and everyone else’s) produces more than that every single second through normal metabolic processes. If you read this article you will find that metabolic processes such as O – and N –demethylation reactions of endogenous and exogenous molecules generate formaldehyde which is then metabolised to formic acid. It is estimated that the human body turns over 31 to 59 grams of formaldehyde every day, which works out to an average of 0.5 milligrams of formaldehyde every second. Normal blood levels of formaldehyde are 0.3 milligrams per liter. Yet you claim that 0.1 milligrams is harmful?

Clearly injecting someone with such a tiny quantity of a substance that their body constantly produces naturally and that it easily detoxifies cannot possibly harm them. It is ridiculous to claim it can.

If you have been lied to about this, what else have you been lied to about?

Mimi,

if you look at NVIC’s website it is all backed up by published studies

If you go to PubMed you will find over 200,000 studies that mention vaccines. Among those studies you will find some that seem to support whatever crazy idea you care to propose. Some studies are badly designed, some get weird results by chance, some studies are distorted by people who should know better, and/or appear in journals with poor standards.

The trouble with organizations like NVIC is that they pick a position, then look for evidence to support it, ignoring all the evidence that goes against their position. People like you go there and read the studies they cite and you come to believe them because what they say is backed up by scientific studies. But they don’t give you the full picture. They don’t mention the vast majority of studies that show that vaccination is effective and safe, and that serious side effects are extremely rare, so rare that in many cases scientists are still debating whether they happen at all.

It annoys me to see intelligent people being misled in this way. It would be like showing you hundreds of court cases in which red-headed people had committed a crime yet not mentioning the thousand of cases where brunettes and blondes had committed crimes. Skewed data leads to sensible people coming to the wrong conclusions.

I suggest you go to PubMed and look for vaccine studies, or Google “Cochrane vaccine safety” to find some review studies that look at all the evidence and take a good hard look at its quality and what it says. (I know some people don’t like Cochrane, but it’s a good place to start to see all the available studies on a vaccine in one place, even of their conclusions are sometimes questionable.)

Mimi@148:

Your post has a lot of adjectives and emotional statements and no references to respected sources. I believe that is the definition of what you call pseudo-science.

I literally laughed out loud at this. Oh noes, the adjectives! The horror! The horror!

Nikki is concern trolling with every single invalidated argument of the anti-vaxxers, gish-galloping, and moving goalpoats at a frantic pace. She should go into Wikipedia as “Example 1: Anti-Vax dupe”.

The ellipses are killing me though. Think green! Preserve the ellipse!

I like Bill Gates’ idea. Create a vaccine that once taken will always have to be taken every year to avoid getting malaria and the only people who make the vaccine are the onwers of the company or have large financial gain to make from it. Nice. now, where are the people who are always shouting about Imperialist Capitalists when we need them?

Very Small List of Imperialist Capitalist Pigs:

nancy pelosi
Harry Reid
John Kerry
George Soros
Ted Turner
Bill gates
Maurice Strong
Most of the Kennedys and Rockefellers
Most union thug leaders
Some CEOs of big name companies like GE, Shell, Exxon, etc.

None of these people ever see wall street protestors ranting at their doorsteps. I suppose you have to be rich or something for that to happen though.

Nikki: “Cracks me up when vaccinated kids get the virus any way”

Love your sense of humor, dear.

@Ren

Chris asked for a side effect, I gave it. Case closed. Where did I over-inflate the side effects of vaccines? I was asked to show seizures as a side effect and I did.
You can rant and rave about me all you want, but if citing a study that proves a side effect has gotten you into such a tizzy-I am at a loss.
I am not playing a game of “intellectual dishonesty.”
The CDC and AAP have obviously not done that great of a job if parents are looking to NVIC for their vaccine information.

Have a wonderful night.

Chris asked for a side effect, I gave it. Case closed.

You were asked this:

And which vaccines cause those? Which ones cause seizures and encephalitis more than the diseases?

Case what?

@Lisa

Notice how I copy and pasted EXACTLY what Chris asked for, and you still write that he was asking about seizures as a side-effect. He wasn’t. He asked you, very clearly, if those side-effects were more likely with the vaccine or with the disease. So, no, you WERE NOT asked “to show seizures as a side effect”.

In a tizzy… Ha! I’m as cool as cucumber on a summer night.

I seriously question Dr. Offit’s information on aluminum in vaccines.
As I learned in nutrition classes, aluminum is NOT an essential metal-it is however
abundant.
. Quote from Children’s Hosp-Dr. Offit-
“Aluminum is considered to be an essential metal with quantities fluctuating naturally during normal cellular activity. It is found in all tissues and is also believed to play an important role in the development of a healthy fetus. This is supported by several findings:
* During healthy pregnancies the amount of aluminum in a woman’s blood increases.
* The amount of aluminum in the blood of the fetus increases between four and a half and six months gestation and again at eight months gestation.
* At delivery, the blood of full-term infants contains more aluminum than the mother’s, but it decreases shortly after delivery.
* The blood of premature infants has more aluminum than that of full-term infants.
* The concentrations of aluminum in brain tissue are high during gestation and highest immediately after birth.
* The breast milk of moms with premature infants contains more aluminum than that of moms who carried their babies to term.

@Nikki:

“Squalene…Aluminum….animal tissue cells….and the list goes on and on and on.”

Gotta watch out for that Dihydrogen Monoxide too! I read on a website one time that it causes all sorts of diseases.

@89 – Sorry I’m a bit late responding. I was actually referring to the fact that, in certain kinds of accidents, the restraint the seatbelt provides can be more of a hazard than a help – hence the ‘risk factor’.

@170
Hurm. You’re right, that doesn’t sound quite right. I’m going to shoot them a question to see what they meant by it.

Pam:

Orac…NVIC does not claim that the DTaP vaccine is more dangerous than the disease. Their position is that the vaccine comes with risks and that consumers have the right to know the risks vs. benefits and make their own choice.

Then why do they leave out the following studies from their page on whooping cough/pertussis:

Vaccine. 2012 Jan 5;30(2):247-53. Epub 2011 Nov 12.
Lack of association between childhood immunizations and encephalitis in California, 1998-2008.

Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.
Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.

Vaccine. 2007 Jun 21;25(26):4875-9. Epub 2007 Mar 16.
Do immunisations reduce the risk for SIDS? A meta-analysis.

Expert Rev Vaccines. 2005 Apr;4(2):173-84.
Acellular pertussis vaccines in Japan: past, present and future.

Pam, do go up and read the post I linked to, I explain why NVIC is essentially lying through omission.

seriously nikki, what about formaldehyde? What about DNA? What about animal tissues? What about aliens? Do you have a point?

The US has Barbara Loe Fisher and the NVIC. Australia has Meryl Dorey and the Australian Vaccination Network (AVN).

Dorey wrangled a talk at a big folk festival in Australia and skeptics and public health advocates known as StopAVN went into action. They failed to get Dorey’s talk ousted, so (among other things) they raised the money to have an banner towed over the festival for the duration of Dorey’s talk.

Here’s one account”

http://www.mochucksmusings.blogspot.com/2011/12/look-up-in-sky.html

Nikki:

As for what toxins….are you serious or just that ill informed? How about formaldehyde in flu shots? Squalene…Aluminum….animal tissue cells….and the list goes on and on and on.

So what about formaldehyde? Are you going to insist that we stop all cell processes so that nasty stuff is no longer created as needed for cell metabolism?

Oh, and the squalene! Oh noes! Would you prefer we removed the children’s livers so that nasty stuff will cease being created as a precursor to cholesterol?

And seriously, where do you get food not grown in soil with minerals containing aluminum? I really want to know? Oh, and have you ever skinned a knee in dirt? Guess what got into the scrapes: aluminum!

And you are right the shots do not go directly into your vein….i am sorry that you are being so literal and i did not make my point more clear. However…when injected into the muscle and fatty tissues they’re absorbed and metabolized into the blood directly. One does not need a degree in medicine to know this.

The reason they are not injected into veins to keep them from getting into the bloodstream directly. Your immune system needs time to learn about the weakened pathogens to protect you from the full pathogens.

You might want to actually take a basic course in biology.

Wait, MDC? Aaagh!

Well, in style, but I didn’t find any links out from there, and the style is as common as dirt (which does not contain C. tetani spores unless you live on a manure-producing farm, of course). Such conduct might even fall under the MDC “other forums” prohibition, but it’s been a while.

Before I forget, Meryl Dorey of the Australian (anti-) Vaccination Network appeared at the Woodford Folk Festival. She was originally going to give a talk on Vaccination and Autism, but due to protests this was changed to a debate. The Stop the AVN page on Facebook has the details.
Long story short: it looks like Dorey got thrashed.

What we need now (!!?!?) is passionlessDrone to drop by and clarify again that the problem is we haven’t evolved with aluminum, thus its use as an adjuvant must be regarded with suspicion.*

*Aluminum actually was invented in a lab by mad scientists in 1947.

@science mom….what is the harm in spreading out vaccines? It is a known fact that they are grouped together only to ensure the majority of the herd gets them. Make it easy for mom by giving them all at once and baby gets shots.

The problem is knowing what vaccines to delay and understanding the term “toxic”. The mere presence of a substance is not tacit for harmful. Dr. Bob eschews combination vaccines for no good reason. He also advocates delaying some vaccines to the point that the diseases are increasing due to refusal or delay. He had several infants and children infected with measles in his own waiting room. And this is the person you wish to take vaccine advice from?

I regress back to my original argument because I know I will never convince any of you that vaccines are bad….and that really is not what I am trying to do. My original point in posting here is that all doctors should be 100% open and honest about what is in the vaccines…so that u all know about monkey kidneys for one reason….but also so you know about ALL toxins and the amount you are injecting into your child’s blood….then you as a parent should also be told of the risk of not vaccinating…then you should have the freedom to make a decision. That folks is called informed consent and I bet the majority of you can agree that this did not happen when you took your kids to get their shots.

Sweet pea, there are no monkey kidneys in vaccines. You use the term “toxin” incorrectly and vaccines aren’t forced. Information about vaccine excipients and risks are not at all secret. You’re either too lazy or ignorant to look at evidence-based sources.

I had to google the measles question.

http://www.macroevolution.net/why-is-the-measles-so-contagious.html#.TvyGsFbpiSo

Oh look, science! Also some data new to me – measles epidemic in France? Wonder why…

1) Chris – I don’t know that Nikki came from MDC, but I wouldn’t be surprised. She completely fits the type – upper middle class, typically educated in the humanities and therefore think they are so smart they also know about science. That’s the MO of MDC

2) Re: squalene. When this stuff first was brought up, I was saying that if it weren’t in vaccines these same people would be taking supplement tablets of it claiming it would ward off cancer. I was saying that until I discovered that in fact it IS sold as a supplement already!

@Ren

Using the names of Government agencies and making an interpretation of something you read somewhere is NOT a reference. You are obviously not familiar with how science works. Statements saying you are against Barbara or anyone else, are not scientific statements. I’d like to see where in the CDC website it says “We hate NVIC!”…and even then, I assure you this is not a scientific statement.

Take a look at the NVIC website look at the published studies they reference, if you don’t like it, then perhaps you should read a little more…That’s the scientific way…

@Chris

So if you have two studies that suggest different things, which one do you pick? You say NVIC pick the study that doesn’t say what you want them to say? Is that bad?

More recent doesn’t necessarily mean better. I find it interesting how all these pro-vaccine people think they know how to pick the GOOD studies out of the bad ones. But so far, I’ve gotten so many contradicting ideas on what makes a good study, you guys got to get your stuff straight.

Joshsmom states, “I seriously question Dr. Offit’s information on aluminum in vaccines.
As I learned in nutrition classes, aluminum is NOT an essential metal-it is however
abundant.”

I seriously DOUBT whether she learned anything of the sort, while in “nutrition” classes…or perhaps she is one of the many “nutrition” practitioners who are unlicensed with a “nutrition degree” from a diploma mill.

Joshsmom, we don’t think highly of “nutritionists”…and their websites. Registered Dieticians are licensed by all states and are science-based with a minimum of a 4-year degree and their website “American Dietetic Association” is an excellent site for science-based information.

Lookie here, when I “Google” “aluminum in vaccines”, I find amongst the high priority listings, these websites:

NVIC.org

drweil.com

themomcrowds.com

mercola.com

mainstreamparenting.wordpress.com

vactruth.com

askdrsears.com

freethoughtnation.com

Joshsmom…where did you really get your information about aluminum in vaccines?

@ Mimi:

You seem to echo several talking points** that are mind-shatteringly familiar to me; actually it appears as if you are quoting Gary Null, chapter and verse. He claims that his ideas are supported by published research, that pharma companies’ research is totally unreliable, that people should only consider truly “independent” studies, and he has authored*** articles questioning if vaccines are “safe and effective.” It’s all there on GaryNull.com/ ProgressiveRadioNetwerk.com.

Now a personal question: did you get this information directly from the woo-meister’s mouth or indirectly through other anti-vax websites?

**( paraphrases: published science; pharmaceutical companies’ research; independent of COI; physicians are not qualified; vaccines are not as safe, barely effective)
*** *auteured* might be a better word.

Obligatory:

Dara on homeopathy and nutritionists.

Thingy, could you be more specific about which term you’re redefining now? Because I think going from

In this study of more than 2 million children, DTP and MMR vaccines were not associated with an increased risk of encephalopathy after vaccination.

to

vaccinating for pertussis does not cause encephalopathy

is eminently reasonable. What entry in my loon-English dictionary am I missing?

Not very many here open for a real discussion and those who are seem to be attacked! You all are over the top in your efforts to prove your point, so busy talking and thinking about what you will say next that you fail to hear what anyone else is saying. Your belief in the power of vaccines can only be compared to a Christian’s diehard belief in God, unwavering faith. Hey, I guess you have to have faith in something. I just hope you all never have to be tested on all of these claims you make about vaccines being good. I bet the farm on the fact that if anyone you ever love is injured by vaccines you will either change your story or be too pig headed and insist the cause was anything other than the magic cure all vaccine.

Regardless of what anyone here has a degree in, or does not have a degree in, the fact remains that as Americans we all have a right to know the real risks and benefits of all medical procedures and medications we take. As of today this is not the case. For example, many  people still think you have to have the shots for your child to enter school and are not aware of the waivers because there is no open dialogue taking place about a parents rights and the risks involved. That is the real issue at hand!

As for toxins…hey you go ahead and inject your body with “healthy” doses of squalene even though the CDC has admitted a possible connection with Gulf War illness. I think I will pass and take my chances with the flu and just increase my vitamin D instead. Oh wait, do all of you genius medical people here not know of the benefit of vitamin D in fighting the flu and how this is actually more successful in flu protection because as someone mentioned above the shot only has three strains of the virus? Do you also know that when the CDC changed their recommendation that pregnant women now get the flu shot even though in the past they did not want them getting it, the miscarriage rate rose 700%! I bet each woman who lost her baby will tell you she’d rather have taken her chances with the flu but hindsight is always 20/20.

As for formaldehyde, that is a known carcinogen and is suspected in being highly toxic to your liver, immune system, reproductive system, respiratory system etc. this is used in embalming fluid for Pete’s sake. If you want to stand in line for that shot, that is your decision.

Now aluminum…yes it occurs in nature in small doses. However in shots babies receive multiple doses of aluminum containing shots: hep b given at birth, 2, and 6 months of age has 250 mcgs per shot, the DTap shot given at 2,4,6,and 15 months each contain 625 mcgs of aluminum, the Hib vaccine given at 2,4, and 12 months each contain 225 mcgs per dose, the pneumococcal vaccine is given at 2, 4,6, and 12 months each contain 125 mcgs, Hep A given at 12 &18 months each contain 250 mcgs. Babies who follow this recommended schedule will receive nearly 5000 mcgs (5mg) of aluminum in their first 18 months of life which is a proven neurotoxin even in small doses when their immune systems are not even fully developed. 

The FDA admits that levels this high can be toxic to kidneys and are not commonly found in nature. I don’t think you get 5000 mcgs of aluminum by scraping your knee in the dirt. But hey, if you want to play Russian roulette with your kid go for it.  By the way, this can be verified by reading those package inserts that someone above said were boring. Talk about naive. you do not want to read the insert because it is boring so you just assume that what you are giving your kids is safe? That is being a lazy parent! Maybe you need to spend less time commenting on blogs and more time reading about things that affect your children.

As for this post, please do not bother copying and pasting portions to reply to and take out of context as you have done to others here. I will not be returning to read your rude and snide comments because I know you can not change ones beliefs and you darn sure can not change narrow mindedness when one is not willing to even consider that maybe, just maybe the world is not flat!! God bless each and every one of you and I pray that your convictions do not one day bite you on your bum.

“As for this post, please do not bother copying and pasting portions to reply to and take out of context as you have done to others here. I will not be returning to read your rude and snide comments because I know you can not change ones beliefs and you darn sure can not change narrow mindedness when one is not willing to even consider that maybe, just maybe the world is not flat!! ”

Translation – I’ll never ever ever ever change my mind, unlike you closed-minded people!

There is no evidence that spreading out shots leads to any fewer complications from immunizations. If anything, it prolongs the agony and inconvenience of dragging a kid in the doctor’s office for shots for no other reason than that the parents are “true believers” in some unproven science. Most doctors’ offices don’t schedule spread out shots for the simple reason that they don’t have enough appointment spots to do so, and insurance won’t pay for multiple visits for shots for no good reason.
StephC, I have a feeling you are one of those parents who doesn’t listen to what doctors (or anyone else) are telling you, and you are getting the conversation all “bass ackwards”. I also imagine that you think smoking is harmless, but vaccines are a massive plot to kill everyone in the world. I may be wrong.
I would also expect a person with a PHd (sic) in education to use better grammar, but I suppose I was wrong there as well.

@krebiozen
re @172 @189
You quote “Aluminium may be involved in the action of enzymes such as succinic dehydrogenase and d-aminolevulinate dehydrase (involved in porphyrin synthesis.”

These sentences follow- “Aluminium compounds are toxic to most plants and somewhat toxic to mammals. Aluminium has been linked to Alzheimer’s disease (senile dementia).”
Hardly supportive of Dr. Offit’s statement.
Where is the proof of what Dr. Offit states?

As for formaldehyde, that is a known carcinogen and is suspected in being highly toxic to your liver, immune system, reproductive system, respiratory system etc. this is used in embalming fluid for Pete’s sake. If you want to stand in line for that shot, that is your decision.

See:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/toxic-myths-about-vaccines/

Seriously. You don’t realize just how ignorant you sound.

Jolie: “Not very many here open for a real discussion and those who are seem to be attacked!”

Only if “attacked” is a synonym for “had their foolishness roundly debunked”. Which it isn’t.

“You all are over the top in your efforts to prove your point”

In other words, we are scoring heavily against the same tired old antivax memes. I agree.

“Your belief in the power of vaccines can only be compared to a Christian’s diehard belief in God, unwavering faith.”

One of the hoariest attempted insults in the playbook. Why do you hate religion?

“Oh wait, do all of you genius medical people here not know of the benefit of vitamin D in fighting the flu and how this is actually more successful in flu protection because as someone mentioned above the shot only has three strains of the virus?”

More successful than what? Not the flu vaccine.

“As for formaldehyde, that is a known carcinogen and is suspected in being highly toxic to your liver, immune system, reproductive system, respiratory system etc. this is used in embalming fluid for Pete’s sake.”

Please inform your body immediately to stop making formaldehyde as part of its normal metabolism. It apparently is embalming your brain.

“Babies who follow this recommended schedule will receive nearly 5000 mcgs (5mg) of aluminum in their first 18 months of life which is a proven neurotoxin even in small doses”

Aluminum adjuvant in vaccines has not been demonstrated neurotoxic to anyone.

“By the way, this can be verified by reading those package inserts that someone above said were boring. “

Which vaccine package insert alleges that the shot contains neurotoxicity-inducing aluminum? Hint: none.

“Maybe you need to spend less time commenting on blogs and more time reading about things that affect your children.”

The irony, it burns.

“As for this post, please do not bother copying and pasting portions to reply to and take out of context as you have done to others here.”

Sorry, too late.

” I will not be returning to read your rude and snide comments”

We are devastated, but will endeavor to persevere.

“God bless each and every one of you and I pray”

We remain puzzled that someone as devout as you thinks it’s a devastating insult to refer to pro-vaccine folks as religious. Please address this if you ever favor us with your presence again.

please do not bother copying and pasting portions to reply to and take out of context as you have done to others here.

Name one occurrence.

I will not be returning to read your rude and snide comments

I will bet my child’s eyes on that being a lie. So just for fun, allow me to copy and paste your entire post, in context, and reply. The only change I’ll make is to take your final paragraph first, because it is so hilarious.

because I know you can not change ones beliefs and you darn sure can not change narrow mindedness when one is not willing to even consider that maybe, just maybe the world is not flat!!

And that would mean something if we were discussing the shape of the planet. Which we are not.

But let’s talk about “beliefs”, shall we?

God bless each and every one of you and I pray that your convictions do not one day bite you on your bum.

It’s exactly this kind of back-handed crap that makes you a crappy Christian, Jolie. Also, Matthew 6:6 says hello.

Not very many here open for a real discussion and those who are seem to be attacked!

This coming from someone who drops in, blathers some easily disproven talking points and states she will never be back. I don’t know what the definition of “real discussion” is in your world, Jolie, but here on Earth, this isn’t it.

You all are over the top in your efforts to prove your point, so busy talking and thinking about what you will say next that you fail to hear what anyone else is saying.

Really? What did we miss? I think everything has been addressed so far. But I’m sure you’ll come up with something that we’ve never heard before and will blow us away.

Your belief in the power of vaccines can only be compared to a Christian’s diehard belief in God, unwavering faith.

I have no idea, I’m an atheist. But wait, aren’t you the one praying for us? What the hell is this? Projection, or were you lying about the praying? I bet you were, Jolie. What a crappy Christian you are.

Hey, I guess you have to have faith in something.

No, no I don’t. Speak for yourself.

I just hope you all never have to be tested on all of these claims you make about vaccines being good.

Umm, what? “Good”? They’re “good” as a hammer is “good”: they are tools to achieve a specific objective. The objective is to prevent diseases. Since I’m not in an iron lung from polio, deaf from measles and did not cough myself to death over a period of days or weeks from whooping cough… sure, vaccines are “good”.

I bet the farm on the fact that if anyone you ever love is injured by vaccines you will either change your story or be too pig headed and insist the cause was anything other than the magic cure all vaccine.

So we’ll either change our minds, or we won’t! What a bet, Jolie! *headdesk*

Hey Jolie, I bet my farm on the fact that if anyone you ever love is injured by a preventable childhood disease because the sociopath next door believed some claptrap on the Internet and did not vaccinate their children, you will either change your story or be too pig headed and insist the cause was anything other than the magic childhood disease!

You do know that occurrence of vaccine injury is several orders of magnitudes smaller than injury due to the diseases they prevent, right?

Right?

Not a soul is saying that vaccines are 100% safe. Nothing is. Water isn’t. Air isn’t. What we are saying is that they are worth the tiny, tiny risk in order to prevent diseases that kill, maim and cripple.

Regardless of what anyone here has a degree in, or does not have a degree in, the fact remains that as Americans we all have a right to know the real risks and benefits of all medical procedures and medications we take.

Yep. That’s why the doctor gives you a sheet with all known possible side effects of the vaccine.

Your point?

As of today this is not the case.

Oh, no point. Lies. Let’s see.

For example, many people still think you have to have the shots for your child to enter school and are not aware of the waivers

Wow. That sounds like a problem with those “people”.

because there is no open dialogue taking place about a parents rights and the risks involved.

Bald assertion. Vague enough to be completely useless. Good job!

That is the real issue at hand!

Wait, are you hitching your wagon to the “NVIC is just providing information” meme? The NVIC site, which has amongst many, many others, this nugget?

“Memorial Day is for remembering those, who have fought and died to defend America and preserve our civil liberties, including freedom of thought, speech, religious belief and conscience. So every Memorial Day I remember the children, who have died after receiving state mandated vaccines, and honor their mothers and fathers, who grieve for them.”

I sincerely hope you’re not hitching your wagon to that.

As for toxins…hey you go ahead and inject your body with “healthy” doses of squalene even though the CDC has admitted a possible connection with Gulf War illness.

Have you even looked up what those doses are, or are you just repeating what you heard somewhere?

I’m throwing out a wild guess here: you haven’t got clue one about what levels of squalene are normal, what levels are associated with any sort of illness, and what levels a child is exposed to through vaccines. Not a single frigging clue.

I think I will pass and take my chances with the flu

Awesome. You’ll take chances for anyone you come in contact with as well. The elderly, the immunocompromised, infants… all people that take that chance — INVOLUNTARILY — with you.

You are a sociopath.

and just increase my vitamin D instead. Oh wait, do all of you genius medical people here not know of the benefit of vitamin D in fighting the flu and how this is actually more successful in flu protection because as someone mentioned above the shot only has three strains of the virus?

Sweetheart, just because Vitamin D deficiency has been tentatively shown to increase susceptibility to the flu does not mean that taking more does anything. Just because you’ve read a few Mercola “articles” does not make you an expert, and just because people say things loudly and repeatedly does not make them right.

Hint: when one of the biggest advocates of this “treatment” is the “Vitamin D council”, be very wary.

Do you also know that when the CDC changed their recommendation that pregnant women now get the flu shot even though in the past they did not want them getting it, the miscarriage rate rose 700%!

No, I did not know that. I’m throwing out another wild guess here: you don’t know that either. You read that somewhere and did not bother to check the facts at all.

See, I just did, and guess what: “A matched case-control study of 252 pregnant women who received TIV within the 6 months before delivery determined no adverse events after vaccination among pregnant women and no difference in pregnancy outcomes compared with 826 pregnant women who were not vaccinated.”

I bet each woman who lost her baby will tell you she’d rather have taken her chances with the flu but hindsight is always 20/20.

Yes, totally. If you weren’t full of it with that 700% number. If every miscarriage was due to vaccines. But yes, other than that, totally.

As for formaldehyde, that is a known carcinogen and is suspected in being highly toxic to your liver, immune system, reproductive system, respiratory system etc.

I feel another wild guess coming on: you have no idea how much formaldehyde is produced naturally in the body. You have no idea what levels of formaldehyde are associated with carcinogenic effects. You have no idea how much formaldehyde is in vaccines.

Not a single clue.

this is used in embalming fluid for Pete’s sake.

You know what else is used in embalming fluid? Ethanol, for Pete’s sake! Better tell everyone! Run to the grocery store and yell at everyone buying beer!

If you want to stand in line for that shot, that is your decision.

Why would I stand in line? I just hop over to the CVS on the corner.

Now aluminum…yes it occurs in nature in small doses. However in shots babies receive multiple doses of aluminum containing shots: hep b given at birth, 2, and 6 months of age has 250 mcgs per shot, the DTap shot given at 2,4,6,and 15 months each contain 625 mcgs of aluminum, the Hib vaccine given at 2,4, and 12 months each contain 225 mcgs per dose, the pneumococcal vaccine is given at 2, 4,6, and 12 months each contain 125 mcgs, Hep A given at 12 &18 months each contain 250 mcgs. Babies who follow this recommended schedule will receive nearly 5000 mcgs (5mg) of aluminum in their first 18 months of life which is a proven neurotoxin even in small doses when their immune systems are not even fully developed.

And?

The FDA admits that levels this high can be toxic to kidneys and are not commonly found in nature. I don’t think you get 5000 mcgs of aluminum by scraping your knee in the dirt. But hey, if you want to play Russian roulette with your kid go for it.

Okidoki. Again, and?

By the way, this can be verified by reading those package inserts that someone above said were boring.

Wait, what? Weren’t you the one complaining about a lack of information? Can’t you even keep your narrative straight for more than two paragraphs?

Talk about naive. you do not want to read the insert because it is boring so you just assume that what you are giving your kids is safe?

What are you talking about? Project much?

That is being a lazy parent!

Yes it is, and thank you for accusing us of being so. Of course, it is much better not to vaccinate and to put your own children and others at risk. That’s not being lazy at all.

Sociopathic, sure. Lazy, no.

Maybe you need to spend less time commenting on blogs and more time reading about things that affect your children.

We have. You haven’t.

@Edith Prickly

It certainly is one for the books, innit? Personally I’m amazed that Thingy hasn’t shown up yet.

Soo….apparently now we are at a point where pro-vacciners are saying it is very important to disregard any studies that suggest vaccines could cause harm or be ineffective and not have any other dialog. The CDC, NIH has spoken. DO NOT ASK ANY QUESTIONS! Just do as they say. Fuck democracy. I should do what authorities tell me to!!

All the NVIC is saying in their statement is that people should be informed. That’s all. Is that so bad? Why are people so upset about asking question about medications that have real side effects? There is something very wrong about this. Even the insert itself says that there are side effects. Why is it wrong to tell people to look at the insert? WHY?

Oh, by the way, should I ask for my money back? I got vaccinated for Hep B and my antibodies for Hep B came out negative 2 years later…. But I did get very very sick from taking the vaccine.

Or perhaps I should get vaccinated again? And risk getting sick again from the vaccine without any of the proposed benefits.

Apparently I missed the part about the miscarriage rate going up 700%. That’s interesting, since the normal miscarriage rate is greater than 15%. So if it increased 8-fold, that would mean that all pregnancies after a flu shot ended up as miscarriage.

For some reason, I think that would have been noticed.

Thingy is once again misrepresenting a study:

In August 1991, the Institute of Medicine released a report entitled Adverse Effects of Pertussis and Rubella Vaccines, which examined, among others, the relation between immunization with whole-cell diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis (DTP) vaccine and both acute encephalopathy and chronic neurological damage. The committee reviewed information from a wide range of both professional and lay sources and found that the evidence is consistent with a possible causal relation between DTP vaccine and acute encephalopathy, although it is insufficient to establish causality. The range of excess risk of acute encephalopathy following DTP immunization is consistent with that estimated from the National Childhood Encephalopathy Study: 0.0 to 10.5 cases per million immunizations. The committee concluded that the evidence is insufficient to indicate either the presence or absence of a causal relationship between DTP vaccine and permanent neurological damage.

-Cowan et al. “Acute encephalopathy and chronic neurological damage after pertussis vaccine.” Vaccine. 1993 Nov;11(14):1371-9. PMID: 7906066

That “700% increase in miscarriage”? It’s Natural News of course, reporting on a press release from NCOW based on a fantasy by Paul G. King.

Happily, Steve Novella took the hammer of fact to the web of lies on December 14, 2010, in H1N1 Vaccines and Miscarriage: More Fear Mongering

The King analysis is nothing but rank pseudoscience, twisted to his anti-vaccine agenda. It has been widely repeated by anti-vaccine, anti-government, and conspiracy-mongering sites – Natural News being just one site to uncritically parrot the false assumption that reported cases of miscarriage and stillbirth are additional cases caused by the H1N1 vaccine.

OK, next?

I have a comment in moderation ,but here’s the main part of the comment (original comment also had citation)

Thingy is misrepresenting the 1991 IOM report:

In August 1991, the Institute of Medicine released a report entitled Adverse Effects of Pertussis and Rubella Vaccines, which examined, among others, the relation between immunization with whole-cell diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis (DTP) vaccine and both acute encephalopathy and chronic neurological damage. The committee reviewed information from a wide range of both professional and lay sources and found that the evidence is consistent with a possible causal relation between DTP vaccine and acute encephalopathy, although it is insufficient to establish causality. The range of excess risk of acute encephalopathy following DTP immunization is consistent with that estimated from the National Childhood Encephalopathy Study: 0.0 to 10.5 cases per million immunizations. The committee concluded that the evidence is insufficient to indicate either the presence or absence of a causal relationship between DTP vaccine and permanent neurological damage.

Mimi:

All the NVIC is saying in their statement is that people should be informed. That’s all. Is that so bad?

Do you even read what I wrote? The problem is that they are misleading people by overemphasizing vaccine risks, and glossing over the risks from vaccines.

Mimi:

Soo….apparently now we are at a point where pro-vacciners are saying it is very important to disregard any studies that suggest vaccines could cause harm or be ineffective and not have any other dialog.

Oh, I see you really are not reading what I wrote! Because you posted that after I said:

So you are now making the claim that NVIC is not cherry picking, so you should prove their fearmongering is valid. Just list the title, journal and dates of those papers ….

I am asking you to provide those studies that prove vaccines are dangerous. So stop whining about us disregarding papers showing vaccines have risks, go and list them. But remember, you must also show what the risks are of actually getting the disease (something that Lisa forgot to include).

Wait, did the clownshoe just say “Mind your place”?

Okay, trollies, ‘fess up:

How many of you have even bothered to read any of Orac’s posts, much less those of the regulars in the comments section, before you started typing whatever warmed-over talking points you were all commanded to type?

You’ve already demonstrated you’re not interested in actual human interaction, much less acknowledging when you’ve been beat. The only reason I can see for your being here is to simply swarm the thread and try to shut it down. Except you’ve all discovered that many of the regulars here are every bit as smart, as educated, as experienced, as ethical, and as ferocious as Orac himself when it comes to medicine, and so instead of shutting it down, you’re all getting nasty cases of butthurt thanks to the regulars.

My thanks to the regulars like Ren, lilady, Dangerous Bacon, Liz Ditz, herr doktor bimler, Chris, and all the rest of you. Your work here is wonderful, and I want you to know that you’ve got this non-doctor, at least, checking out PubMed and the WHO site when confronted by something with the scent of woo about it.

After reading through this thread, I think this pic sums up the anti-vaccinationists and other conjecture-based medicine advocates position well.
http://fails.failblog.org/category/hall-of-fame/?bow#post-144575

Or maybe the Amish do actually have cases of autism. If only there were some way of searching the internet and ascertaining facts!

At least the bot’s here to translate for us.

We perhaps should attempt a clarification. The bot, while certainly of a helpful and jolly nature, is not really aiming at translation. And although our copy of The Blue and Brown Books has suspiciously gone missing, we’ve made secure other materials that might lead it to try to go all interlocutor. Its design goal is rather one of closing the loop, as it were, and such utter aesthetic and logical domination in direct argumentation with Th1Th2 on Th1Th2’s own linguistic terms to backfill the potential well.

So how did Angela, Lisa, Nikki, Jolie, Wendy, Bitsy and Phlegmina find this site in order to grace us with their antivax dingbattery? Did someone at AoA, sMothering.com or CureZone link to Orac’s article? Or did RI get named Satanic Site Of The Month on whale.to?

Inquiring minds just gotta know.

@Dangerous Bacon
God only knows. My bet’s behind MDC – partly because of style, partly because of the generic female nomenclature, and partly because the idea of a bunch of sMothers organizing a /b/- or Pharyngula-style raid is strangely adorable.

Anna, do not demand compassion when you refuse to show any to others? Do you have any idea what damage vaccine-preventable diseases can cause? Do you have any evidence your children really are vaccine-damaged? Two events happening close together does not mean one caused the other.

From Anna Watson in block quotes. First part:

Where is the compassion, Barbara Loe Fisher’s son was vaccine damaged.

BLF’s claim is that her son was injured by the whole-cell pertussis component of the DPT vaccine in 1980. Her claim is that the DPT caused “brain dysfunction, including multiple learning disabilities and attention deficit disorder (ADD)”. Did the vaccine cause her son’s issues? Maybe, and maybe not.

Yes, the whole-cell pertussis vaccine had a higher rate of adverse reactions, but it also was more effective.

BLF takes credit for the introduction of the less-reactive, but less effective acellular pertussis vaccine. It’s a false grab for credit.

She has campaigned respectfully for 30 years for safer vaccines.

Respectfully? Respectfully? No. She has been a one-woman disinformation campaign, spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt about the efficacy and safety of all vaccines.

Safer vaccines? That’s BLF’s claim, here’s a question for her (and you): what vaccines do you recommend? BLF has never recommended a vaccine. She has only talked about how dangerous they are.

In fact the US has paid out $2 Billion in vaccine damages in the past generation.

To be accurate, the National Vaccine Injury Program (NVIP) has paid out $2,213,229,050.37 over 23 years, to a total of 2,799 recipients. Another 6,992 claims have been dismissed. Remember that NVIP has a very low standard of proof (“50% and a feather”).

Now, to quantify those numbers, can you estimate how many doses of vaccines have been dispensed over those 23 years? Don’t forget adult vaccines. Some of the 2,799 cases compensated have been for vaccines given as an adult. Give it a try….

Knowing the risks is crucial.

Yes, that estimate of the total doses of vaccines administered should help you estimate the risk.

A healthy child does not die of measles,

Now that’s a flat, evil, lie. Healthy babies do die of measles. Why do you think the measles vaccine was developed?

but a healthy baby can be vaccine damaged.

Yes, vaccine injury is real. Real, but vanishingly rare (remember that risk calculation again).

@Anna Watson

Where is the compassion, Barbara Loe Fisher’s son was vaccine damaged. She has campaigned respectfully for 30 years for safer vaccines.

I can think of many terms to describe someone who appropriates the inscription above the Washington DC Holocaust museum to serve her own cause, but “respectful” isn’t exactly one of them.

A healthy child does not die of measles, but a healthy baby can be vaccine damaged.

I will not respond with a meme. I will not respond with a meme. I will not respond with a meme. I will not….oh, fuck it. U trollin, bro? Because…
h_tp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10838107
h_tp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7883316
h_tp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15106083
h_tp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9757471
h_tp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7581755
h_tp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20012881
h_tp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7924062
h_tp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12536372
h_tp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12620751
I believe that everyone, their dog, et. al. would like to disagree with you.

Tens of Thousands of families around the world have been adversely affected by vaccines, you seem to belittle their experience.

The CDC estimates that somewhere from 530,000 to 959,000 people died of measles in the year 2000, alone. I was going to go looking for total worldwide death tolls from measles between the vaccine’s introduction and now, but I think that statistic alone proves my point pretty well.

No vaccine has been tested with a benign placebo and no vaccine has been tested for its mutagenic cancerogenic properties

The ethical problems with a hypothetical double-blind vaccine study have been covered before, by better people than myself, but I’ll sum them up: basically, it would be incredibly fucked up to deny the “control” group something that could potentially save them from a disease, without their knowledge.

Also, how in God’s sweet name did you get the word “mutagenic” right, but mangle “carcinogenic” into…that?

Those who choose not to vaccinate their children are usually extremely intelligent says all the research.

[citation needed]. Also, sometimes smart people can do extremely dumb things.

There’s the compassion folks! Remember if you are vaccine injured and you say something about vaccines being harmful to you and other humans as well, then there will be no compassion for us…

I…I don’t think you understand what compassion means. Here’s a hint: it doesn’t mean “agreeing with everything a person says”.

Compassion among infection promoters is a rarity.

@Anna Watson

A healthy child does not die of measles

Whoah. Where, exactly did you learn this? I really do want to know, because it is woefully, horribly wrong. In healthy children, the risk of death from measles is about 1-2 per 1,000 cases. See, this is the problem with anti-vaccine activists such as Ms. Fisher. The risks of diseases are downplayed to make it look as though the vaccines are either unnecessary or more dangerous than the diseases they prevent.

So I ask again, where did you learn this? Please provide evidence to support this assertion.

No vaccine has been tested with a benign placebo

Again, this is wrong. Take a look at some package inserts and you’ll see that there are vaccines that have been tested against placebo controls (e.g., influenza vaccine, rotavirus vaccine, etc.). And that is just the studies done to gain FDA approval. Search PubMed and you will find plenty more studies comparing vaccines against placebos.

And no long term study has compared health outcomes for the vaccinated and the unvaccinated.

Also not true. A study in Germany, “Vaccination Status and Health in Children and Adolescents”, looked at numerous health outcomes among children who had received no vaccinations compared to children who had received at least one vaccination. Their results? No significant differences in illness between the two groups, with the exception that the unvaccinated group had a higher rate of vaccine-preventable diseases.

‘Anti-vaccinator’ is a term used to degrade mostly parents of vaccine damaged children.

No, it isn’t. At least, not when I use the term. Parents who have been tricked into believing that vaccines are to blame for their child’s condition are victims of people like Barbara Loe Fisher and the talking heads at Age of Autism. Yes, vaccine adverse reactions do occur, and when a vaccine causes injury, the parents and child are deserving of our understanding, respect and sympathy (click on my name for one mother’s story). But not all injuries are caused by vaccines, even though the injury or illness may come after administration of a vaccine.

Perhaps instead of waltzing in here, slinging accusations and myths about, you should take some time to learn more about the subject from valid, reputable sources.

Oh dear a spelling error, posted in haste, it seemed to upset stuv.
Should read from all vaccine inserts:

“This product has not been evaluated for carcinogenic or mutagenic potential, or potential to impair fertility?”

Here are a few quotes re the healthy child and measles mortality ‘lie’ ..
“Under normal conditions, healthy children do not die from or become disabled from the complications of measles and if they do, questions should be asked about their management.” —[Letter BMJ Feb 2005. Dr Donegan MB.]

In UK, from 1998 to 2007 (as of 24th November), there were 28,364 cases of measles.
Out of the 12 deaths from 1998 – 2007, one is known not to be measles, one is provisional, 2 were immunodeficient children within the age where vaccines are administered, and the other 8 were older deaths resulting from infections contracted prior to 1967. From the years of 1998 – 2007, the risk of any unimmunized child dying from ACUTE measles was as follows:
immunodeficient children = one per 14,182 cases of measles; healthy normal children = 0 out of 28,364.
Any suggestion that in 2008, the risk of any child dying of acute measles is 1 in 2,000 is another fictional statistical manipulation, in the same vein as: “in order for the risk/benefit equation to be tipped in favour of leaving children unvaccinated against MMR, there would need to have been more than 7500 deaths from MMR in the last 10 years.” —–Hilary Butler [Letters BMJ Becoming Ben Oct 2008]

p.s. My children are not vaccine damaged child. How many of you have children I wonder?

NO vaccine has been tested against a benign placebo, unless you call other vaccines benign …

Prof David Salisbury, Head of Immunisation in the UK, told me that
“They all only use benign placebos – we use the safest most pure vaccines as a placebo”

The new malaria vaccine for example is being tested with that benign Rabies vaccine!

@Anna Watson

Interestingly, searching the BMJ for the Donegan letter turns up nothing. The only sources I could find for that quote were anti-vaccine sites and comments left by people such as yourself.

And the Butler citation is a comment on the article “Becoming Ben”.

Now, tell me, Anna. In what universe are letters and comments such as that science? Please give us an actual study to back up your claims.

Anna Watson, do please tell us what Roald Dahl’s oldest daughter died from?

And please read the comment I made to Lisa that was posted at December 28, 2011 11:59 PM. Now I want you to prove to me that your statement that children who are healthy do not die of measles using actual peer reviewed literature, not a BMJ letter nor from a “journalist” like Ms. Butler. Just post the title, journal and date. Be sure to make sure it is indexed at PubMed (there is nothing by Donegan MB in 2005).

Also, do tell us how Barbara Loe Fisher was more effective than John Salamone (whose son was injured by the oral polio vaccine).

I also want you to tell us exactly how you would design a placebo trial of a vaccine that would avoid real numbers in the second, third and fourth columns of Table 1 of this study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2134550/pdf/jhyg00119-0147.pdf

BTW, Ms. Watson conveniently leaves out the response of Dr. Peter Flegg, author of the “Becoming Ben” article, to Ms. Butler:

4) How many of the people who died had immunodeficiencies, cancer, or any other underlying condition which would have contributed to their deaths.

Both the deaths from acute measles had underlying immunodeficiency. To pre-empt your next question (which would be to say that “normal” children do not die from measles in the UK), let me say that these deaths demonstrate quite irrefutably the case for universal measles vaccination. These two children would never have been allowed to receive live MMR vaccine; so they depended upon herd immunity to keep them safe from catching measles. In a world where there was no measles vaccine, these two children would have been exposed to measles in infancy, with no doubt the same outcome. Poor vaccination rates lead to lowered herd immunity, and can directly be linked to these unfortunate deaths. It is precisely because some children are more vulnerable (yet cannot be protected through vaccine) that herd immunity is so vital.

There is much more from Dr. Flegg in the comments on that article. The responses can be found here.

Nice one. Shall we drag out your greatest hits? Regale everyone about the “retards” once again in the meantime.

Indeed. Thingy has been in rare form lately.

@Andrew

Thanks for the link. So, to support her claim that measles doesn’t kill healthy kids, Anna cites opinions offered in comments/letters, not peer reviewed controlled studies. Got it.

I have to wonder about some of these fabulous motherly people. None of them seem to have any experience, or anyone in their family?, as a nurse despite it being a female dominated profession.

Well, I have a child who’s a nurse in a children’s hospital. These people often have to nurse terminally ill children and their grieving families all the way through to the very sad end. You’d think they’d be used to death in hospital. Sad, yes, but they’re trained for it.

But the rage and grief that rippled through the hospital when a baby died of pertussis, now that was different.

And the truly horrible thing is that 10-15 years ago the staff could not recognise the symptoms of a baby with pertussis. Only an older nurse had the experience from years before.

She thought she’d never see it again. If only.

What Mike Adams is saying is that in a particular study 60% effective means it’ll prevent the flu in 1.5 persons out of a hundred. The other 98 people who took the shot will or will not get the flu regardless of the shot they took. There is certainly more to it than simply slapping a label saying it is 60% effective without explaining how the number was cooked up.

There’s an old joke that’s relevant here.  A guy goes to the doctor, and the doctor diagnoses a sprained finger.  The guy asks, “Doc, once my finger heals up, will I able to play the piano?”  The doctor says “Why, certainly!”  The guy says “That’s amazing!  I never could play piano before!”

The point of the joke is that the doctor is answering the only reasonable interpretation of the question, namely, will the healing of a sprained finger return piano-playing ability to someone who would otherwise be able to play if not for that sprain?  But the patient is actually asking a different, and humorously illogical question:  will the healing of a sprained finger somehow magically obviate all the other obvious prerequisites to playing a piano, such as knowing how to play??

Mike Adams’ “shocking” revelations about the flu vaccine effectiveness are akin to this old joke, except that his illogical question is actually serious.  He’s somehow pretending that those who talk about the effectiveness of the flu vaccine are being dishonest for phrasing that effectiveness in terms of “how many people who otherwise would have gotten the flu will not get the flu because they had the vaccine.”  Doing it Adams’ way, however, would be like judging whether sprained-finger treatment was effective by dividing the number of people who could play piano afterwards by the total number of people with sprained fingers, instead of the number of people with sprained fingers who could play piano before. 

Re: you have to be a parent to understand the problem of vaccine injury

In contrast, it was when I became a parent that I got got most adamant against the anti-vax movement. Before then, I thought the anti-vax loons were mostly an oddity. Loons but still an oddity. It was when I had kids that it became real to me. At that point, the non-vaccinated became more than oddities, but became risks to MY kids. I don’t look kindly to those who put my kids at risk for thheir own slfish reasons. I am willing to vaccinate my kids to protect them AND to help protect your kids. I only as that you help us out in return.

Interestingly, even Uncle Bob Sears knows how sleazy it is to not vaccinate, and advises those people following his delayed schedule to not advertise the fact lest they run afoul of those whose kids they are putting at risk.

So don’t give me this “concerned parent” shit. It is beecause I am a concerned parent that I despise the anti-vax folks. To me, it’s personal.

Mimi #199

So…let me get this straight. You don’t trust published science? You sort of contradicted yourself there.

I don’t trust all published science, no. There are scientific studies of varying quality, that get published in journals of varying quality, and sometimes have not been published in scientific journals at all.

Do I look at what the majority of studies suggest or do I study the design of the study??

You look at what the majority of good quality studies suggest, while taking account of possible conflicts of interest of the authors, the quality of the journal a study appears in, the scientific plausibility of what a study seems to show and much more. It’s complicated. That’s why scientists have to spend years studying, taking exams and getting qualifications to make sure they understand their subject properly. It’s not something you can teach yourself in an afternoon at Google University, contrary to popular opinion it seems.

It is well known that the majority of published studies are paid for by pharmaceutical companies.

That’s true and we need to keep a close eye on them, as we do any industry, but even in the USA 30% of research is funded and carried out by government agencies or by universities. Who do you think should pay for safety and efficacy studies of products, like vaccines for example, made by pharmaceutical companies? Tax payers? Universities? Charities?

So if I am just going to look at what the majority of the studies say…I don’t think that’s necessarily a representation of what is really going on.

Quite right, you need to look at the quality of the study, whether it is supported by other studies etc. etc.

As far as telling people to judge by the design of the study. Most people, including physicians are not qualified to judge. To truly do that we would have to do a lot of statistics work to validate whether the study was done right.

Maybe that’s why we get organizations like the CDC and the Institute of Medicine, to have panels of experts look at these complicated matters and come to carefully measured conclusions about them?

So really the only way to get a decent idea if a study is biased is to look at whether it was done independent of conflict of intrest.

No, you also need to look at the quality of the study, the quality of the journal it appeared in, the scientific plausibility of what it seems to show… Or you could trust that the experts who have spent their lives studying these subjects might have a better idea of the truth than someone with a doctorate in education, for example. Unless you are one of those conspiracy nuts who believes that the government and Big Pharma are conspiring to make money out of the sheeple by killing them all with toxic vaccines, in which case I’m definitely wasting my time.

When you look at those, you most often find that vaccines are not as safe as they are made out to be and barely effective.

Please give me some examples of well-designed and conducted, double-blinded, randomized controlled studies, independent of conflicts of interest that show that vaccines are ineffective and dangerous. No phone surveys or studies by the Geiers please.

I would have liked to see you critique some of the studies that you think were designed wrong. The truth is you haven’t even looked…

The truth is you are seriously out of your depth here and making yourself look very silly. Please take a look at any review study (that’s a study that looks at all the available studies relevant to a specific question and assesses what the balance of the evidence says) and especially the inclusion criteria. There are even published selection criteria that are commonly used to score a study’s quality, such as the ‘Cochrane Handbook of Systematic Reviews of Interventions’. Double blinding, randomization, sufficient size and measures to deal with possible biases, are just some of the important factors that make a good study. The majority of possibly eligible studies are rejected as not being of high enough quality or otherwise not fitting the inclusion criteria in most if not all review studies.

You wanted me to critique a study – how about one cited by the NVIC on their ‘Pertussis (Whooping Cough) & Pertussis Vaccine’ page that I picked at random: ‘Pertussis toxin is required for pertussis vaccine encephalopathy’? Firstly and probably most importantly it’s a study on mice, not humans, so we have no real idea if what they found applies to humans. Secondly it is 25 years old, and subsequent studies have clarified the possible role of pertussis vaccines in encephalopathy – the latest IoM publication ‘Adverse Effects of Vaccines: Evidence and Causality’ found no convincing evidence of a link. Thirdly it is a study of whole cell pertussis vaccine which is no longer in use in the USA. Finally, if pertussis toxin in vaccines causes encephalopathy, you would expect the disease pertussis itself to cause encephalopathy a lot more frequently, which of course it does (in 0.1% to 6.9% of cases), so even vaccination with whole cell pertussis vaccine actually reduced a child’s chances of encephalopathy. Why is NVIC still citing this study when it has so little relevance to the US vaccine schedule? Could it be the scary-sounding title?

Nice one. Shall we drag out your greatest hits? Regale everyone about the “retards” once again in the meantime.

Indeed. Thingy has been in rare form lately.

Instead of being compassionate, Enders and Salk “regaled” after using these “retards” in their hideous vaccine trials.

Do you need a link Orac et al?

Marry Me Mindy,

It is beecause I am a concerned parent that I despise the anti-vax folks. To me, it’s personal.

Me too. My son, who could not be vaccinated for medical reasons, nearly died of pertussis in the UK in the early 1980s when there were outbreaks after a fall in vaccination uptake. This was due to a scare started by a Dr John Wilson who “claimed that the vaccine was only marginally effective and questioned whether its benefits outweigh its risks” (Wikipedia).

Watching my son laboring for breath while his lips turned blue was very frightening. I didn’t realize until recently that that horrible experience was due to a vaccine scare that had actually been shown by that time to be completely out of proportion to any actual risk. It led to up to 100 unnecessary deaths and misery for thousands of children and their parents.

@Krebiozen

Can you shoot me an e-mail? I’d like to run something by you. My e-mail link is over on HS (click my name to get there).

Krebiozen:

You wanted me to critique a study – how about one cited by the NVIC on their ‘Pertussis (Whooping Cough) & Pertussis Vaccine’ page

[cough, cough] She missed when I noted that a reference was selective quoted, and I when I said:

The DTaP has been used for over a decade, so there should be fewer references to the dangers of the DTP vaccine. Also, it would be more honest to actually refer to the proper vaccine on the line that says: “Pediatrics – August 2005 study on effectiveness of DPT vaccine.” The link goes to a paper titled “Pertussis Vaccine Effectiveness Among Children 6 to 59 Months of Age in the United States, 1998–2001″, and is about about 3 DTaP and 2 DTP vaccines, not the non-existent “DPT” vaccine.

Narad@293 – Wonder how long it will take her to use it properly.

I doubt it was the cuteness that attracted Enders and Salk to vaccinate those retards.

Yes, I’m sure that will be duly noted in the Book of Th1Th2 when you ascend to the gentle and endless ministrations and praise that you will justly find around the next corner.

Ooh, and the quotes come off.

You’re quite a specimen, Thingy. Hey, who wants to play Thingy DSM Bingo with me?

I’m not a parent but that doesn’t stop me from being concerned about all children’s welfare. You needn’t be a parent to relate to *people’s suffering*- children’s or adult’s, of those you know personally as well as that of complete strangers’.One hundred preventable deaths because of fear-mongering is a gigantic, tragic waste of potential and needless suffering of those children and their families.

Similarly, I’ve never been in a war zone or tsunami or lost a limb yet can easily manage to muster sympathy for people who live through those horrible events.

Most people have the capacity to imagine themselves in the role of the other and then, perhaps stirred by what they experience vicariously, go on to support causes that benefit children, even if they haven’t any.

Re Sauceress @283 in response to stuvmyopenid regarding “Where do these people come from?”

Someone asks a rhetorical question and gets an answer complete with links – Orac’s minions are in fine form.

@ Thingy: How dare you use THAT word when referring to people who are developmentally disabled.

Ahh…where’s the compassion?

WIKI

John Franklin Enders (February 10, 1897 – September 8, 1985) was an American medical scientist and Nobel laureate. Enders had been called “The Father of Modern Vaccines.”[…]
On October 4, 1960, the New York Times reported that Dr Enders was leading a team testing a measles vaccine on 1,500 retarded children in New York City and another 4,000 children in Nigeria. By late 1961, the vaccine was proven to be completely effective.[4]

Vaccinated: One Man’s Quest to Defeat the World’s Deadliest Diseases
 By Paul A. Offit, p. 47

On October 15,1958, Katz injected eleven mentally retarded or disabled children with the vaccine developed in Ender’s
laboratory.[…]Without weakening the virus further, the Boston team next tested the vaccine in mentally retarded children at the Willowbrook State School, where Saul Krugman had performed his controversial experiment with hepatitis virus[..]Hilleman was excited with the vaccine developed by the Boston group.

Wow. I love these bogus articles of deception. I used to hate them. I didn’t realize, at first, the power behind such tactics used here would actually work to help us expose the corruption. Thanks for helping to raise vaccine truth awareness to all you professionals here. It used to be that many bought the lies many here work to perpetrate but now because of so many being awake & the rhetoric & propaganda used in this kind of deception being old & worn out, it’s become much easier for our people to see through the cover up that’s come to its end. The masses are waking & there’s no turning back. Keep up the good work, guys. Posterity will thank you, too, for saving them as they will the real heroes.

@ Marsha McClelland: Is this your profile on Facebook?

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Jeez…Marsha, you have presented us with a whole lot of blogging material…thanks.

@ Edith Prickly: I copied and pasted part of Marsha McClelland’s Facebook page…it is a hoot.

Hurry up please Orac, and get me out of “moderation”…thanks.

Edith Prickly:

Never mind, I see from your Twitter feed that you’re a Ron Paul fan.

Does this mean that Marsh also condones shaking children to death, and then putting the blame on vaccines? Ron Paul belongs to the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons. Its journal (JPandS and its earlier version, Medical Sentinel) has papers by those who make the claim that shaking babies does not cause harm (espoused by Jane Orient), and even has articles to that effect by Buttram (who was paid as an “expert” witness to help get child murderers out of jail).

Of course, that is not all, there is more.

Really, Marsha, you actually want to be associated with that kind of ilk?

We cure autism by chelating mercury out of the brain. Why are you bothering to discuss anything besides mercury? You all know that’s the only problem with vaccines.

@ lilady: oh my lord, what a trainwreck of crazy. Forget the tinfoil hat, she must have to wear a full suit of armour.

Man…All you guys who know it all should get into pubmed more. Haven’t you heard about stealth prion proteins? Oh I forgot—they still want you to believe we don’t have that stuff and it is not causing Autism or Alzheimers. They also want you to believe that immune suppression we have been blessed with as a result of using genetically altered organisms is a hoax. And that mercury does not behave like flux to fold the infections in our genes.
Not near as good as the one people were forced to live in telling us that AIDS was caused by a virus, and MadCow was caused by a prion, and Neuroborreliosis was caused by a bacteria that is easy to find and easy to treat. Esp. after its 3 prion proteins have swapped genes with you, other organisms and agrobacteria as well. Yes they don’t want to tell you that Morgellons is infecting all your babies in Autism immune suppression.
That was a good one fellers…LOL Have I got a holding pen for you and 999,999 other that were built in the last 5 yrs. to hold all those mean terrorists. LOL And the best part is they get to send the bill to Uncle. LOL
Can I name the next syndrome please—Rabidprionassorinus for dumping millions of Rabies antigens in prion infected insects. Of course I’m sure they will name it hemmoragic flu.

Anyone who does some honest research regarding the vaccination issue is bound to arrive – like I did – at the inevitable conclusion that vaccination is an organised criminal enterprise dressed up as disease prevention by means of junk science.

“Belief in immunization is a form of delusional insanity.”
Dr Herbert Shelton MD, USA

“Vaccination is a massive fraud.”
Dr Russell Blaylock MD, USA

“Vaccines contain substances which are so noxious they should not ever be injected into a human body.”
Dr Viera Scheibner PhD, Australia

“I was shocked to find that this whole vaccine business was indeed a gigantic hoax.”
Dr A Kalokerinos MD, Australia

As far as I am concerned, the sooner this medical superstition and money-making racket is abolished, the better.

@ Smarter than you Jerks:

We cure autism by chelating mercury out of the brain.

No we don’t. Mercury Poisoning has totally different symptoms to Autism. Catherine Lord showed this to be the case in the Omnibus Autism Proceedings before the Vaccine Court Special Masters.

You forgot to mention Herbert Shelton, Erwin.

Funny – I never quite realized before that the fringe has a fringe.

Dear Narad,

One cannot define ‘soon’ with a date on a calendar son. One should actually know this but I decided to point the fact out to you, anyway. I bet you even beLIEve in vaccines, too? I hope not. Or are you one of the many, here, who know the truth & work against it? I do not usually reply to inconsequential comments unless there’s good reason but this one time I take exception.

As for the blog about me created by you shills, I’m not interested. I am honored, though, to know I’ve become such a threat to the best of the bad boys & girls working in the vaccine cover up agenda.

For an inside scoop cons, I predict Paul Offit your Proffit will ‘soon’ be sued, again, too.

Since it was pointed out my having a Face Book account, bad & good guys & gals alike are welcome to watch my wall for breaking news & updates. My wall is public & I want our enemies to know all we’re up to so they can be very afraid.

Look for my crying eagle & it’s not the one with my middle initial. Real & true news will be found without the spin there & if you have something to say be careful because only truth is allowed there. Mean spirited people will have to be nice or be blocked. After all, it’s my wall. Not a place for debate. Activists watch this wall for information so there’s not much room for conversation.

You professionals know we the many are waking to understand the fraud called science behind vaccines so you should start to look for other work while you can. Better jump off your sinking ship, ‘soon’.

That’s good advice many need to take because we are taking names of those to hold responsible so it’s best to get out while you can.

Thinking people paying attention know the real science is on our side & each day more & more doctors & important people join the moral & correct side of this matter that takes our children out in many ways in great numbers, including death.

I do want to commend this site, though. I am impressed you do not stoop to censorship by banning people bringing truth here when they make their points. One cannot beat truth for ever so many in your business have had to resort to censorship but not you. I didn’t expect that of such creatures as run this show here. Big names here for sure. I guess word would get out quick if you did stifle the public with censorship & that would be worse for you than the task of trying to create the illusion as in repeating the same lies over & over in hope of fooling some enough to continue the cover up. Thanks again for, at least, allowing free speech.

Grandma Marsha

Dear Krebiozen,

It’s all a scam & the stats are mostly fake. Doctored to make it look like it’s not. There is much proof if you do in depth research. If you’re a sincere person you should take in all sides to this matter & come to your own conclusion.

Facts will show the outbreaks are mostly in vaccinated populations.

“News reports and studies from Ron Paul’s daily Paul exploding the whooping cough vaccine myth”

http://www.dailypaul.com/167931/a-collection-of-mainstream-news-reports-and-studies-exploding-the-whooping-cough-vaccine-myth

Actually,

“We cure autism by chelating mercury out of the brain.”

This does work. I have seen it first hand in my own nephew who is no longer on the spectrum and had off the chart levels of mercury in his blood after his 2nd rounds of shots. But wait, let me gues, you all will say I just imagined it right? Just like homeopathic medicine does not work yet I can attest to the fact that the teething pellets are a miracle in a bottle and work much better than Oragel and Tylenol! They may not work on major illness and I will admit there is a need for “traditional” medicine, I will also admit that sometimes homeopathics DO work and overdosing kids with antibiotics is NOT always the answer. Why can there not be a balance of both. Why is it all or nothing with so many of you?

As a special education teacher I can tell you that regardless of what causes Autism the reality is that something is responsible for its onset and instead of arguing over stupid studies that someone needs to post but does not have the time to dig up because not everyone lives on line like apparently many of you do, why can we not all come together and use our brains collectivly to find out what is causing it if vaccines are not.
Over the last 25 years, I have seen this become the majority of kids I work with and it is a problem that we will be leaving to our kids as the autistic generation, and there will be an entire generation of these kiddos out there, will need someone to take care of them when their parents are no longer around.

Now I am no doctor, and no I have no “studies” to prove my thoughts on this as they are just my thoughts but I think the cause of this is not just the vaccines themselves but rather how many we are giving in such a short amount of time for the sake of “convience” for fewer visits to the Dr. Maybe it is time for some parents to be inconvienced and just take their kids to the doctor more often so that the shots can be spread out a bit so that the body has time to eliminate some of the toxins rather than being placed in toxic overload.
This combined with increased toxins in everything we surround ourselves with and you have the perfect storm. The human body can only take so much.

It is not just autism that we need to be questioning. What about rises in infertility in young couples who should be able to conceive without any problems? What about the rise in ADHD (another huge problem in the classrooms!) Rise in allergies, upper respitory infections etc. It is clear that SOMETHING is making our kids sick people!

I read above that many here have disabled children and for that I am sorry. I will say that the parents of vaccine injured kids share your experience when they see a child who seems to be developing normally disappear in front of their very eyes. I am also sure that parents of kids who have been ill from vaccine preventable illness feel the same. My point is that we have ALL felt the same and none of you are any better than anyone else who has posted here. So instead of bashing the shit out of one another and trying to prove who is right/wrong, use your energy to solve the problem and stop all the ranting and bitching already!

“Unvaccinated behind largest U.S. measles outbreak in years”

http://yourlife.usatoday.com/health/story/2011-10-21/Unvaccinated-behind-largest-US-measles-outbreak-in-years/50852098/1

Do you really believe that? What will the death toll from pertussis and measles have to rise to before the masses really wake up? Are you aware of what is happening in Europe as a result of the masses “waking up” and not getting their children vaccinated?

– 26,000 measles cases in Europe from January to October 2011
– more than 14,000 in France alone
– only 10% of cases were in people known to have been vaccinated
– 9 deaths
– 7,288 hospitalized
– thousands of cases of pneumonia and encephalitis

Slow handclap for the anti-vaccine movement…

Posted by: Krebiozen | December 30, 2011 1:54PM —————————–
Come on Krebiozen get real. Do you really not know that Pertussin reported by Russia to be infective in the prion protein swapping genes? And Korea says Clap is the same? While they also told us back in 1996 how it melded into the genes. And again in 2001. How stupid people ever believed they were not all the same thing I’ll never know. I guess you have to be one of them that cared enuf to slaughter 200million cattle to try to stop it. Pam3 cys was first synthasized in 1983 and from there AIDS/MadCow/Syndromes were born. They got lucky in finding HIV like they got lucky in finding XMRV/HGRV and HPV when they katow to junk they know will never work. If they hadn’t given us so much help we would all be living into the hundreds by now…But were not. In fact the avg. age of Africans is 35 they gave them sooo much help…

Oh how about Poland telling us that the test for neither works in the immune suppression Pig Pharma has blessed us with? Just like the researchers just told us why we will never have a HIV/TB/Malaria vaccine. LOL And the same reason we should have NO vaccines.
You either are for the people or you are for the profits. The Autism now being diagnosed every 4 mins, the MS being diagnosed every 10 mins., the Alzheimers being diagnosed every min. added to all the other stupids they came up with to cover up their crimes does not give you time for more profits that are killing the people. Let it go on and women will control Congress because 4 out of 5 Autism victims are male. You either get onboard to the truth the people must have or walk the plank. Because stupid money grubbing paper pushers, that ignored the prion synergy epidemic they caused now able to swap genes–let it now be dissiminated in our vectors of disease.
Congress can’t come up with enuf money to fix them all with stem cells and antibiotics so that leaves the ones who gave it to them to pay for their crimes. Lets not ferget why we got blessed with the NVICP in the first place. It was because they knew what AIDS/MadCow/Infectious organisms could now do for them and did not want to pay for it because business was getting sooooo good…LOL
By the way—you can read France’s take on Prions along with everyone elses in pubmed, esp. since the discoverer of the HIV virus now works in China to find something to cure the masses by stopping the synergy that genetically altered organisms for use in vaccine have created in our immune suppression. Every country is looking for the stop when we already have it.

Slow Handclap for Krebizen who clearly does not work for the people, cos the people working for the people are telling the people the truth for a change…

Oh boy. Marsha McClelland AND Erwin Alber (vaccines cause homosexuality) all in one thread! Where’s Maurine Melnick and Anne Dashel? And Dr. Jay? Then we’d have a full house..or is it a busted flush.

I don’t know if that’s my profile. I can’t see a link, lilady. Just type my name in & look for the crying eagle. It’s the one without my middle initial. I placed the link here.

Marsha:

As you know the real criminal, Poul Thorsen, was recently indicted for stealing the CDC’s money….For the innocent here who might not know, he was head scientist/researcher behind the Danish studies that they,

Please list the papers where he was either the first or last author. And did you miss the link to where all of Wakefield “independent replications” were not real?

Silvermaven:

Can I name the next syndrome please—Rabidprionassorinus for dumping millions of Rabies antigens in prion infected insects. Of course I’m sure they will name it hemmoragic flu.

WTF?

Yay, look it is Erwin Alber! The guy who liked a liked a badly faked graph because it conformed to his delusional view of reality. And he still has not figured out that Schreibner is an expert in rocks, particularly the tiny fossil type, not a medical expert of any sort.

More Marsha:

Thinking people paying attention know the real science is on our side & each day more & more doctors & important people join the moral & correct side of this matter that takes our children out in many ways in great numbers, including death.

Except, Marsha, you have not proven that you actually think. Perhaps you can tell us if Buttram is an okay dokay guy for letting people who shake children to death stay out of jail.

Even more Marsha:

“News reports and studies from Ron Paul’s daily Paul exploding the whooping cough vaccine myth”

Not only are you ignorant, but you really hate babies. Most of the deaths from pertussis were babies too young to be vaccinated, and needed protection by others being vaccinated.

Teacher:

This does work. I have seen it first hand in my own nephew who is no longer on the spectrum and had off the chart levels of mercury in his blood after his 2nd rounds of shots. But wait, let me gues, you all will say I just imagined it right? Just like homeopathic medicine does not work yet I can attest to the fact that the teething pellets are a miracle in a bottle and work much better than Oragel and Tylenol!

Oh, my word. First the plural of anecdote is not data, and those teething tablets were removed from the market because they actually were so poorly manufactured that there was enough belladonna to make kids sick! From Hyland’s Teething Tablets may pose a risk to children:

The FDA advises consumers to consult their health care professional if their child experiences symptoms such as seizures, difficulty breathing, lethargy, excessive sleepiness, muscle weakness, skin flushing, constipation, difficulty urinating, or agitation after using Hyland’s Teething Tablets.

Is this really Marsha?:

“Unvaccinated behind largest U.S. measles outbreak in years

The article really says:

Among those people infected, 86 percent were unvaccinated or their vaccination status was unknown. Thirteen percent were under one year old — too young for vaccination.

Marsha, are you now supporting vaccination for measles? Or did you just not read what you cut and pasted?

Actually, Marsha, I also have a comment in moderation. It happens, don’t have a conniption fit.

But you could take the time to tell us exactly if Ron Paul supports keeping people who shake children to death out of jail by blaming vaccines. You can check the link I posted at December 30, 2011 12:53 PM.

Paul belongs to the organization that publishes papers by Buttram, who used to testify for the child murderers. Though they kind of dropped Yurko when he landed in jail again.

@ Chris There’s many more doctors than Ron Paul who know vaccines are responsible for Shaken Baby Syndrome & SIDS, too. Fact is fact & those looking for them are finding them. But then I think you’re one that knows that. Do the research for yourselves people. That’s the only way to learn.

Oh Marsha Marsha, don’t get discouraged by the moderation hold-ups, they happen to all of us. Please do continue “beating us up with the truth.” It tickles!

Release the Ron Paul Blimp!!

No lilady I am not paranoid. All my comments went straight through & now all a sudden one is held for moderation? It did make it but could someone tell me why after making so many comments I am now getting the message my comment is being held for moderation? Seems funny to me as if you now need to check what I write before you post it. Seems logical to me to suspect foul play.

@Marsha McClelland:

There’s many more doctors than Ron Paul who know vaccines are responsible for Shaken Baby Syndrome & SIDS, too.

False. An increased rate of vaccination is associated with a decreased risk of SIDS.

Fact is fact & those looking for them are finding them.

Now why am I reminded of those Moon Landing Hoax Conspiracy Theorists who said that the pictures of the footprints on the moon proved it was all a lie as footprints wouldn’t have lasted that long?

I guess I’m done here as I have been censored due to beating you guys up with truth.

Funny, you still seem to be nattering away. It must be hard to be brimming over with truth like that.

Do the research for yourselves people. That’s the only way to learn.

I have been doing that for the past ten years, and have found that the anti-vaccination brigade are spreading a horrible mess of disinformation, lies, half-truths, distortions and cherry-picked information.

I have lost count of the number of times when I have pointed out an error, with links to independent sources of information to prove it is an error. The same person pop up a few months later repeating the same nonsense.

Formaldehyde in vaccines for example, it’s ridiculous to suggest that the quantity of formaldehyde in any vaccine could possibly hurt anyone, yet you see that lie repeated over and over again…

Responses to multiple people follow:

“Chemtrails Awareness”? Gee, why is the Conspiracy still using chemtrails when vaccines would be such a better delivery method?

@Marsha:

Tell you all about Wakefieild’s vindication later

I am glad to see Erwin is also a threat to the deception presented here as shows in the juvenile attacks on him.

So do you mean that the evidence to vindicate Wakefield isn’t yet public, but will be become public Real Soon Now? Or that it already exists, but you just aren’t going to bother proving us wrong?

@Silverman:

And that mercury does not behave like flux to fold the infections in our genes.

Wait, are you saying that the presence of mercury allows for Lamarckian-type inheritance of infectious diseases?

Not near as good as the one people were forced to live in telling

???

Are you saying that Mad Cow disease isn’t caused by prions?

@Erwin Alber:

Anyone who does some honest research regarding the vaccination issue is bound to arrive – like I did – at the inevitable conclusion that vaccination is an organised criminal enterprise

So nice of you to make explicit the rule “a pro-vaxxer must either be a sheep or a shill”.

Esp. after its 3 prion proteins have swapped genes with you,

Prions don’t have genes, so how could they “swap” genes with you?

@Liz Ditz:

Erwin Alber (vaccines cause homosexuality)

Wait, what?!

Ah, sustained fail. Thank you.

I’ve always thought herd immunity is a failed concept hence it’s a myth. Thank you for reiterating that.

@ Marsha..” There’s many more doctors than Ron Paul who know vaccines are responsible for Shaken Baby Syndrome & SIDS, too.”

[citations please or the names of those doctors who claim vaccines are responsible for SIDs deaths]

Marsha…See:

CDC Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDs) and Vaccines

You are aware Marsha, aren’t you, that the American Academy of Pediatrics recommended in 1992, that all healthy infants be placed on their backs to sleep?

You are also aware, aren’t you, Marsha, that since the implementation of the “Back to Sleep” program, that the incidence of SIDS has decreased dramatically? Why did the incidence of SIDS go down 40 %…between the time of the 1992 AAP “Back to Sleep” recommendation and 1998, Marsha?

Now if we could just get doctor/politicians and others to read the court record of convictions of child abusers and read the postmortem medical examiner’s reports of the infants who died by the hands of child murderers…people like Alan Yurka would not be getting a “get out of jail card” because of the credulousness of his supporters.

Marsha, Marsha, Marsha:

There’s many more doctors than Ron Paul who know vaccines are responsible for Shaken Baby Syndrome & SIDS, too.

You need to provide those citations. Because I really hate it when people murder babies and then try to blame vaccines. I also really hate it when they lie about it. So you really have to back that up with real evidence.

Fact is fact & those looking for them are finding them. But then I think you’re one that knows that. Do the research for yourselves people.

It seems those facts seem to elude you. I have done some research and here is what I came up with:
Vaccine. 2007 Jun 21;25(26):4875-9. Epub 2007 Mar 16.
Do immunisations reduce the risk for SIDS? A meta-analysis.

The conclusions say:

Immunisations are associated with a halving of the risk of SIDS. There are biological reasons why this association may be causal, but other factors, such as the healthy vaccinee effect, may be important. Immunisations should be part of the SIDS prevention campaigns.

Now, Marsha, it is up to you prove they are wrong. Except you are not allowed to use any papers from doctors whose medical license have been investigated, nor anything from AAPS’s Journal of the American Physicians and Surgeons.

Until then, I will just lump you in with the child abusers.

Marsha @339

OK – The governement can manage to run a program of secretly spraying toxic chemicals from commercial airliner wich requires the cooperation and silence of thousands of airline pilots and aircraft mechanics, but they can’t get a YouTube video taken down.

@Teacher:

US has such a HIGH (one of the highest) IMR (infant mort. rates)

The reason that the US has such a high infant mortality rate is that in the US there are many incidents that are called infant deaths that in other countries would be called stillbirths:

First, it’s shaky ground to compare U.S. infant mortality with reports from other countries. The United States counts all births as live if they show any sign of life, regardless of prematurity or size. This includes what many other countries report as stillbirths. In Austria and Germany, fetal weight must be at least 500 grams (1 pound) to count as a live birth; in other parts of Europe, such as Switzerland, the fetus must be at least 30 centimeters (12 inches) long. In Belgium and France, births at less than 26 weeks of pregnancy are registered as lifeless. And some countries don’t reliably register babies who die within the first 24 hours of birth. Thus, the United States is sure to report higher infant mortality rates. For this very reason, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which collects the European numbers, warns of head-to-head comparisons by country.

Infant mortality in developed countries is not about healthy babies dying of treatable conditions as in the past. Most of the infants we lose today are born critically ill, and 40 percent die within the first day of life. The major causes are low birth weight and prematurity, and congenital malformations. As Nicholas Eberstadt, a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, points out, Norway, which has one of the lowest infant mortality rates, shows no better infant survival than the United States when you factor in weight at birth.

@Teacher #365

@Jullian Frost, if you do not beleive the link between SIDS and vaccines, perhaps research why the US has such a HIGH (one of the highest) IMR (infant mort. rates) and also the highest vaccine schedule where other countries who have lower vaccine schedules, such as Singapore where they hold off on vaccines until age 2 and do not give as many as the US, also have much lower IMR than we do? Explain that please? Since we are all about posting studies, I would LOVE to read where you found that increased vaccines lead to LOWER IMRs as you stated above. Here is my study saying quite the opposite.

I was just enjoying my popcorn while reading this thread, but I had to interject with a minor correction. The Immunisation Schedule in Singapore starts at birth. Newborns are given both (the dreaded) Hep B and BCG (tuberculosis vax that isn’t used in the US). Link is in my name.

As for infant mortality, a whole lotta that has to do with limited access to medical care among the poor and those otherwise unable to obtain health insurance. Another factor in that is America’s heroic tendency to try to save babies at the cusp of viability (born at 22 or 23 weeks gestation).

Anyway, please carry on with your crazy.

@Militant Agnostic:

OK – The governement can manage to run a program of secretly spraying toxic chemicals from commercial airliner wich requires the cooperation and silence of thousands of airline pilots and aircraft mechanics, but they can’t get a YouTube video taken down.

That’s because the minds of the shapeshifting reptilian aliens work very differently than the minds of humans.

“Just curious, how many of you are DOCTORS?”

Several regulars that I can think of offhand including me (not counting Orac, which is a mistake since you should always count Orac), not to mention a bevy of nurses and other science/health professionals.

“…or are you all just a bunch of “know it alls” who just spew what you call facts on the web?”

Why do the two have to be mutually exclusive?

By the way before you go spitting BS my way, they are back on the market, are perfectly safe, and were recalled for not just having Belladonna but for having in consistent amounts of it combined with not having a child safety lid per the FDA (see below).

Below:

FDA has received reports of serious adverse events in children taking this product that are consistent with belladonna toxicity.

For lilady & others who really want to know the truth in reference to post 362 & the fact doctors are becoming aware & some ‘admitting’ that not all SBS is child abuse. Much is vaccine injury & that is the truth.

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/shakenbabysyndrome.htm

You say laying babies on their backs is the reason SIDS has gone down? We say it’s because people are becoming aware of the dangers to vaccination.

Can’t any of you know it alls think for yourselves? Don’t you care what ingredients are injected into your children? You care what they eat right? Oh wait, that’s probably assuming too much. You all probably believe Kraft mac and cheese is a good dairy source

http://het.sagepub.com/content/early/2011/05/04/0960327111407644

Discusses IMR in the US. Oh wait let me guess, only studies posted by you would be correct and valid. Come on, let me read the reason why this one is garbage please. Marsha, THANKS FOR POSTING on here and fighting the fight!

Narad, each pellet of teeting tablets has 0.0000000000003% of belladonna (I may have omitted an 0 by mistake). Babies take 3 of these. So you are worried about this much belladonna but almost 5000 MCGs of Aluminuim as stated above is safe? Really? Again, do you rub mercury on your kids’ gums?

@Militant Agnostic:

OK – The governement can manage to run a program of secretly spraying toxic chemicals from commercial airliner wich requires the cooperation and silence of thousands of airline pilots and aircraft mechanics, but they can’t get a YouTube video taken down.

That’s because the minds of the shapeshifting reptilian aliens work very differently than the minds of humans.

@ Gina: At least my disabled kid was never arrested and had to cop a plea for “disruption”. What the hell did you feed that kid?

only studies posted by you would be correct and valid. Come on, let me read the reason why this one is garbage please.

Your “pay to publish” article:
Corrigendum The National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) donated $2,500 and Michael Belkin made a personal donation of $500 in memory of his daughter Lyla towards the SAGE Choice Open Access fee for this article

Others here may bother to read it and chew it up.

Got any evidence based research published in a respected journals and indexed at Pubmed?

As a long time lurker, I just wanna say I applaud all the regular posters here stemming the tide of stupid that’s rolled in, especially as of late.

Narad, each pellet of teeting tablets has 0.0000000000003% of belladonna (I may have omitted an 0 by mistake). Babies take 3 of these. So you are worried about this much belladonna but almost 5000 MCGs of Aluminuim as stated above is safe? Really? Again, do you rub mercury on your kids’ gums?

Ahem:

WOW. FYI, you would have to eat a truck load of the old tablets to even get sick.

It’s not my fault that your commemorative Walmart Teacher of the Year T-shirts failed to shield you from posting something that directly contradicted your assertion.

Another long time lurker who appreciates the knowledge of the regular posters here.

Carry on and pay no attention to the trolls.

Just a little background on Gina’s son. She claims that she and her three children are “all on the spectrum”. Apparently he is not “so far down” “on the spectrum” that he hasn’t graduated from a regular high school and will be attending a music conservatory; from her face book page:

“I think after yesterday our sky is quite blue. He’s just about to graduate high school and he’s off to the Conservatory for Recording Arts and Sciences. My son is going to be the greatest music producer ever. He’s also a fabulous guitar player. I’m very happy he’s not going to have this as an obstacle to reaching his full potential. Thank you for your support. Muah ~ Now let’s go celebrate! ;o)
February 15 at 9:50am

Her reference to “yesterday” was February 14, 2001 when her son “copped a plea” for disruption and was placed on 12 months probation…after being arrested for bringing a realistic dud pipe bomb, that his buddy constructed, to his high school.

People who live in glass houses…and spill their guts about their personal lives on Facebook and AoA…shouldn’t accuse other people of not feeding their children properly…just ‘saying.

Teacher:

I know how to post a link.

Actually, the next question is how is your reading ability? I said: “Do you even know how to click on a hyperlink?” “Post” and “click” are not synonyms. By the way, the link I posted was exactly the same one you posted (those were the blue words that said “Hyland’s Teething Tablets may pose a risk to children”, I used some simple HTML coding).

And what part of “poorly manufactured that there was enough belladonna to make kids sick” did you find confusing? Was it the use of a multisyllabic word like “manufactured”?

The cardiac events in the teenager were very real, and they were very real again in the same now 23 year old adult just a couple of months ago. There are these things called genetic heart disorders. Now I really doubt your teaching ability if you have issues with both reading comprehension and did not know that some kids actually have medical issues that just occur.

Gina Radakovich Vokoun:

Can’t any of you know it alls think for yourselves? Don’t you care what ingredients are injected into your children?

Yes, we can actually. It is all involved in knowing what the actual ingredients are, and being able to intelligently access the risks with real data. Could you please tell us what toxin in a vaccine is more toxic than tetanospasmin?

And then you can tell us exactly which vaccine is more dangerous than the disease it is designed to protect from. Please show us you can think for yourself by posting the actual title, journal and date of the studies, and not a random website of someone’s opinion.

Marsha, Marsha, Marsha, haven’t you been told often enough to post real studies and not web opinion pieces? I asked for the title, journal and date of the studies that supported your statements, and that are contrary to the review study I posted. Shelley’s Wellness Cafe is an idiotic joke, and I already told you that Buttram was an evil man who kept baby killers out of jail, and I told Mr. Alber that Schreibner has a doctorate in rocks, not anything related to biology.

“Gina” is also a charter member of the “Canary Party”…Arizona branch.

Thingie #347:

– 26,000 measles cases in Europe from January to October 2011 = herd immunity*
– more than 14,000 in France alone = herd immunity

A genius of your order should also have noticed that the immunization rates have decreased in Europe since the Wakefield affair, in conjunction to the growth of the anti-vaccine movement Not only in local pockets of under-vaccinated populations, but in several countries, including France, the rate of vaccination against some childhood diseases is now dipping below the level of herd immunity. No wonder we have this resurgence of preventable diseases!

lilady:

People who live in glass houses…and spill their guts about their personal lives on Facebook and AoA…shouldn’t accuse other people of not feeding their children properly…just ‘saying.

I don’t think I would take her to much for task in that regard. It does have some odd coincidental themes with a movie I recently watched, Beautiful Boy (note to “Teacher”, the blue letters are a hyperlink, clicking on it will take you to the Internet Movie DataBase).

The mother was one of those who did not let her son eat junk food. Warning, it is a very slow movie. I had my WinDVD player time stretching feature at 1.75 and sometimes full double speed and it still seemed too slow (watched it in less than an hour!).

Better be glad you weren’t on Ed Brayton’s site or PZ MYers where the nerds a really snarky.

Yes, I suppose you really did get your ass kicked pretty badly with those misadventures, Rob.

@ Chris: She’s nuts and narcissistic. What parent would ever discuss her child’s criminal behavior on the internet…except a nut looking for sympathy for herself.

If nothing else, this post goes to show how anti-vax crankery crosses ideological lines.

I mean: anti-vax nuttery combined with Ron Paul crankery? You can’t make this stuff up.

Who is Rob? Why do you keep calling me that?

Because a simple textual comparison identifies you as Rob Hood, KE5BMP, Mississippi swampjack, proud representative of MFJ subsidiary Ameritron, and guy with a really moribund blog. Happy?

@ Scryer:
@ Nikki Lynn;

Oh, thank you so much for coming forward! I would offer you both drinks but it’s rather difficult reaching across cyberspace. Please sit down, get comfortable- you’re amongst friends. Since it’ll soon be New Year’s I am hoping that a certain Scottish gentleman** will stop by and sing “Auld Long SineWave” or whatever it is that they sing. So stick around. Step right over the trolls. We all do.

** very handsome with dark hair and a beard, swears like a sailor: you know who you are.

#397

I say every time a nerdy vaccine slurper mentions getting vaccinated, fart real loud and point at them and laugh.

Still seeking someone to share your obsession with analism Mm?

Instead of desperately trying to garner attention to your plight on science blogs, I’d suggest a therapist. I’m sure you’ll find any number who will show an appropriate interest in your obsession.

Sorry Marsha for not helping you out sooner.

On another note..
I thought immediately that Medicien man & its associated personalities would be attracted (if not already familiar) to Marsha when I read the first of Marsha’s nutty rants.
(note: Having said that,I’m making absolutely no implication that Marsha is one of Mm’s alternate personalities.)

Oh – I forgot:

– something for morons to believe in

Erwin Alber, you are a joke. You looked at a graph that someone had obviously used a paint program to draw in a fake line, and you bought it hook, line and sinker. Justifying it by saying: “People have different takes on reality, and sometimes some of them approximate, or even match, actual reality. To me the graph is real, to you it is a fake. To each his own.”

You see folks, Mr. Alber lives in his own reality.

-a fraud/hoax/scam/racket
-population control and reduction
-a monstrous deception

One that every government of every political flavour and religious culture the world over is party to?
Even those where the population is paid bonuses to have babies?
Interesting case of cognitive dissonance you have there Erwin.

Marsha and the troll can’t be the same

No. That possibility didn’t enter into it. Just that they spout the same ranting flavours of delusion. Besides Marsha made not one analistic reference.

Now I must be off again.
Before I leave, I’d like to take the opportunity to sincerely thank all the visiting antivaxx lunatics for coming and displaying themselves so transparently on this blog over the past few days.

Mathew Cline (in response to me wondering why a conspiracy that could manage chemtrails couldn’t get a YouTube video taken down.)

That’s because the minds of the shapeshifting reptilian aliens work very differently than the minds of humans.

You are right, I keep forgetting they are only lizards after all. I was hoping for crocodilians at least. Call me a bigot, but if I have to submit to reptilian overlords, I want something with a frontal cortex and a four chamber heart.

IreneD,

– 26,000 measles cases in Europe from January to October 2011 = herd immunity* – more than 14,000 in France alone = herd immunity

A genius of your order should also have noticed that the immunization rates have decreased in Europe since the Wakefield affair, in conjunction to the growth of the anti-vaccine movement Not only in local pockets of under-vaccinated populations, but in several countries, including France, the rate of vaccination against some childhood diseases is now dipping below the level of herd immunity. No wonder we have this resurgence of preventable diseases!

Is the asterisk [*] not big enough for you?

*Herd immunity applies to immunisation or infection, human to human transmitted or otherwise.

Now, are the bolded words not bold enough for you?

Immunisations are associated with a halving of the risk of SIDS. There are biological reasons why this association may be causal, but other factors, such as the healthy vaccinee effect, may be important. Immunisations should be part of the SIDS prevention campaigns.

Ahh Chris must be dreaming again. Correlation does not mean causation. What a sheep you are.

Is the asterisk [*] not big enough for you?

Maybe you could post a video in which you act it out in interpretive dance while playing the kazoo. I mean, if you just want to try to change the subject for no reason other than drawing delicious attention to yourself, you could at least put some effort into it.

Vaccination is:
– a fraud/hoax/scam/racket
– junk science/tobacco science/Mickey Mouse science
– biochemical warfare against civilians
– population control and reduction
– systematic child poisoning
– child abuse
– a crime against humankind
– a monstrous deception
– a health disorder manufacturing process
– an autism creation factory

And a floor-wax and a topping!

@ Chris

The cardiac events in the teenager were very real, and they were very real again in the same now 23 year old adult just a couple of months ago. There are these things called genetic heart disorders. Now I really doubt your teaching ability if you have issues with both reading comprehension and did not know that some kids actually have medical issues that just occur.

Are you saying here that these now teenagers have heart issues from very small doses of belladonna? You make no sense. As for my teaching ability, good thing you are too busy trying to be a big doctor on a random blog to be a principal or I guess my job would be in jeopardy…lol. As for teaching your kids, I will pass. I don’t need another pain in the ass parent who thinks he knows all but really knows nothing.

@narad
What are you talking about? My assertion was and is clear. There is not enough belladonna in the tablets to harm a child when taken properly. If you read the FDAs report, they clearly tell you that the problem was that 1. The pellets did not have the same amount on them. They were not consistent. 2. There was not a child safety lid. The hyland group has worked with the FDA to correct these issues and the product can be purchased at any cvs. So can you not read and what is your point. My guess is that there is no point. Just like all the other BS you are posting, you have no clue and are hoping whoever is reading is too stupid to know the difference. News flash, posting here does not earn you a degree in medicine nor does it make your penis any larger so find another hobby. The jig is up and your vaccine ship is sinking quick! By the way, we do not get Tshirts for being teacher of the year prick.

Matthew Cline,

1) It’s logically impossible for vaccination to provide immunization (as Th1Th2 claims).

[citation needed]

Narad, that the best you can do? Find the typo, good job! I am super proud that someone finally rendered you speechless. 🙂

Th1th2,
Actually Matthew cline is correct to say that vaccination does not provide immunization. If it did there would be no need for boosters. In addition, they would be 100% effective and they are not since many who have been vaccinated still get sick. The only real immunity comes from allowing your body to fight off disease.

Ah Narad you missed the last post from that MDC thread.

Moderator:

Once again I’ve removed posts from this thread which are not consistent with our guidelines.*** As I cautioned previously, this thread is now closed. Do not start a new thread on this subject.

***Infection-promoting agenda. That’s what the pro-pox MDC is all about.

Teacher:

Are you saying here that these now teenagers have heart issues from very small doses of belladonna?

Your lack of reading comprehension is astounding! How did you graduate from university?

First off, the mention of my kids’ medical issues was mentioned as a way to show how wimpy you were about teething. Let me repeat the paragraph, since you have trouble reading:

By the way, wet washcloths kept in the freezer do wonders, the cold soothes the pain, and the scratchy terry cloth helps with tooth eruption. Also teething is nothing compared to seizures, a toddler going in and out of the hospital, then having cardiac events as a teenager, and having three kids with full blown chicken pox (one who was six months old). You are really not scoring any mommy-warrior points by bringing up something as minor as teething.

So not only did you not learn about an effective sugar free(which is what homeopathy pills mostly contain) and drug free way to deal with teething, but you totally missed that you were called a maternal wimp. Great going!

@Krebiozen @406- From the “mini review”-
“Urine accounts for >95% of excreted Al. Reduced renal function increases the risk of Al accumulation and toxicity in the very young, elderly and renally diseased human being (Greger & Sutherland 1997)
Notice how the very young are grouped with the elderly and renally diseased.
Still no support for Dr. Offit’s statement of aluminum as an “essential metal” See
@172 also@189@216

Teacher, it just occurred to me: what kind of tortured logic did you use to connect a genetic cardiac disorder that manifests in a teenager to teething tablets, especially since I said I never used any?

Really, how do the cogs and gears in your gray matter work?

@chris,
Sorry darling but it is not my reading that lacks but rather your writing skills. How was I, your reader, to know that the seizures, toddler going in the hospital etc…was your own kids? Let me break it down for you fourth grade style so that perhaps you understand, ready? If you want someone to understand what you are saying when you write, please make sure and make yourself clear. Assume nothing. After all, you know what they say about assuming right?

As for homeopathics, I am not one to argue their ingredients as to how much sugar they are made with and really i do not care. They work, but i bet you would say they do not and have likely not tried very many. I want to make it clear that there is also a need for medicine so please spare me the lecture ok. Homeopathics are like nyquil or other over the counter cold remedies but are not a cure all for everything.

You have yet to justify why small doses of belladonna is so terrible and bad but the toxins in vaccines are good. I am just so excited to hear your reply and all of the great studies you will skew to back your claims. I am on the edge of my seat over here!

As for your attempt at an insult, I laugh at your maternal wimp comment. Do you really think I am weak minded enough as to let some little schmuck on the Internet make me feel like a bad mom or even a bad teacher? Please. I have much more confidence in myself than that but nice try….hahaha.

I am going to bed but look forward to your reply over coffee in the morning, to include sugar! Do make sure your writing is a bit more clear ok.

Narad, that the best you can do? Find the typo, good job!

I wasn’t referring to the typo.

@Marsha

You make me laugh by citing that “study.” Here’s why:

https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2011/08/an_anti-vaccine-administered_survey_back.php

Actually narad, the Walmart in my state gave us 5,000 and a Walmart apron to use in my science lab so I am all good but thanks for checking 🙂

Chris, you were the one who wrote about cardiac issues with apparently your kids when I mentioned testing tablets. Maybe you need to take writing 101. At the local community college so that your point is a little more clear. This is what YOU wrote dear:

By the way, wet washcloths kept in the freezer do wonders, the cold soothes the pain, and the scratchy terry cloth helps with tooth eruption. Also teething is nothing compared to seizures, a toddler going in and out of the hospital, then having cardiac events as a teenager, and having three kids with full blown chicken pox (one who was six months old). You are really not scoring any mommy-warrior points by bringing up something as minor as teething.

So you see my dear it is your own writing again causing the issue here.

You wrote that crap in reply to my point:
“We cure autism by chelating mercury out of the brain.”

This does work. I have seen it first hand in my own nephew who is no longer on the spectrum and had off the chart levels of mercury in his blood after his 2nd rounds of shots. But wait, let me gues, you all will say I just imagined it right? Just like homeopathic medicine does not work yet I can attest to the fact that the teething pellets are a miracle in a bottle and work much better than Oragel and Tylenol! They may not work on major illness and I will admit there is a need for “traditional” medicine, I will also admit that sometimes homeopathics DO work and overdosing kids with antibiotics is NOT always the answer. Why can there not be a balance of both. Why is it all or nothing with so many of you?

Actually Matthew cline is correct to say that vaccination does not provide immunization.

Like natural infection, vaccination promotes infection. It is a must. Primary infection either by natural infection or vaccination MUST occur so that upon re-exposure or re-infection to the same pathogen only then the immunity (secondary immune response/anamnestic response) can be evaluated.

If it did there would be no need for boosters.

Booster is a childish term for re-infection or re-exposure to the same pathogen. Yeah booster, sounds good doesn’t it?

In addition, they would be 100% effective and they are not since many who have been vaccinated still get sick.

Well they got sick because they were primary infected, guess what, by vaccines.

The only real immunity comes from allowing your body to fight off disease.

Well, there is a thing we call innate immunity. But first, you have to know the real infection promoters–the pro-pox and the pro-vax.

Marsha

Tomorrow I’ll be posting an urgent message to everyone

I missed Orac’s dissection of that study (will eventually catch up on what I’ve missed)however when I followed Marsha’s link to Health Freedoms and read in the intro:

The data was collected from parents with vaccine-free children via an internet questionnaire by vaccineinjury.info and Andreas Bachmair, a German classical homeopathic practitioner.

I really couldn’t help laughing out loud.
Poor Marsha.

Can’t wait for the unintentional lulzs and stupidity that marsha will bring.

It’ll certainly give me a good laugh at her.

Poor Th1Th2. Still it’s trying desperately to swing some attention away from our antivaxx visitors toward itself.

Now. Now I get it!

It’s time for New Year’s Eve festivities to start here (in Oz).

All these recent visitors providing sparkling wit and shocking revelations are the internet equivalent of fireworks. Crash, bang, wheeee as the catherine wheels spin and the rockets spray fountains of spectacular colour.

And it’s just as well for the internet eruptions. We’re not allowed hand held sparklers here because of the fire risk. So I have to make do with the wordy variety.

Thanks to all of you. Sooooo much.

Teacher, it is too late to excuse your poor reading comprehension. We’ve gotten quite a laugh at your lack of logic. Though it is partly my fault, I should keep all the words I write to under three syllables (oh, rats that has three!). “Comprehension” means that you actually know what the words mean, and that you can get what someone is saying by how they are arranged (that is called “grammar”).

Is that better?

Now, here is something you can do to redeem yourself. Tell us exactly which vaccines on the pediatric schedule (that means those shots and oral vaccines given to children) are only available with thimerosal (that is the “evil” stuff that some claim are the same as mercury, which has more than two syllables, I figure you know it since you keep typing it in all CAPS… that means you use the “caps lock” on your keyboard, the part of the computer you type with, and the computer is what you are using to grace us with your thoughts).

So, really, why are you still hung up on something that was removed from vaccines ten years ago.

(Do you know how hard it is to use words of less than three syllables!? Cripes! Even “syllables” has more than two!)

By the way, Teacher, do you know a better way to keep kids from getting antibiotics? (Wow, you used a four syllable word! Woot!) It is to prevent bacterial infections by giving them vaccines like the DTaP, Hib and PCV. If you have actual evidence the vaccines are more dangerous than the bacterial diseases of diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, haemophilus influenzae type b or Streptococcus pneumoniae then please provide it.

If you can’t, I suggest you work getting some supplementary education credits in reading comprehension, science, logic and basic statistics. Don’t do it just for your students, but for yourself. It will make you look less like an idiot.

@Teacher:

Actually Matthew cline is correct to say that vaccination does not provide immunization. If it did there would be no need for boosters. In addition, they would be 100% effective and they are not since many who have been vaccinated still get sick. The only real immunity comes from allowing your body to fight off disease.

The reason booster shots are needed, and that vaccines aren’t 100% effective, is that they expose the immune system to much less of the disease’s antigens then the full-blown disease would.

New year celebrations about to start here in Perth (Aus)too…so which one of you wonderful people left the lid off the can of batsh*t crazy?

To teacher – I am a qualified Education Support teacher here in Oz – you are always welcome in my classroom – all of the students could teach you a thing or two.

@ Scryer:
@ Nikki Lynn;

Oh, thank you so much for coming forward! I would offer you both drinks but it’s rather difficult reaching across cyberspace. Please sit down, get comfortable- you’re amongst friends. Since it’ll soon be New Year’s I am hoping that a certain Scottish gentleman** will stop by and sing “Auld Long SineWave” or whatever it is that they sing. So stick around. Step right over the trolls. We all do.
___________________________________________________________

The trolls don’t bother me. I have an AI disease so I’m used to the nut cases who claim you better off not listening to science.

I do have to say though that this site attracts some very unique and angry trolls.

Ah well, variety is the spice of life 🙂

The reason booster shots are needed, and that vaccines aren’t 100% effective, is that they expose the immune system to much less of the disease’s antigens then the full-blown disease would. we, the vaccinators, are infection promoters and we want to infect you all over again.

Now that’s what I call Science.

Concerning the study I posted that the great, ‘NOT’, Orac picked apart & the fact he did that shows the threat that study was. Just like with this bogus article of deception trying to cover up & taint what we are doing to raise awareness.

I hear posts were removed that didn’t fit the guidelines of this snake pit where I doubt sincere people are regulars & I bet they included mine, right? Can’t let all that truth stay, huh? Pick that statement apart people & have fun. Stand by for that important message that I promised. Getting my animals fed & then my coffee & I’ll be back.

@ Teacher. Thank you for trying to get through to these people but I wouldn’t waste too much time here. This forum is run by professional shills that love money more than children. I’m sending these fools an urgent warning that could save their own children from disease and/or death & then I have bigger fish to fry.

To back Orac up, Marsha, I’ve had posts go into moderation. Even posts with no links and no swear words. I then write “Comment of mine in moderation” and wait. Invariably, Orac frees it.

“Teacher” is reminding me of my cousin’s boyfriend, who was so desperate to make himself the center of attention at a family gathering that he prodded me into reciting fourth-grade bio basics despite the fact that he claims to teach high school science at a selective high school. And then he tried to tell bigoted “jokes” with a lead-in that instead had me and my girlfriend doing Transgender 101; I assume he already knew what we were saying, but a couple of the other guests may have learned something.

So, “Teacher,” (a) Do you teach at Stuyvesant High School? and (b) Do you believe a word of what you’re saying about vaccines?

You know what, Thingie? I swear your answers are getting stupider and stupider. It wouldn’t be worth responding to the nonsense you try to propagate, except that there are plenty of innocent bystanders online who might be suckered in by the deluge of half-baked anti-vaccine propaganda.

Here’s where your last attempt shows itself to be ultimately full of FAIL:

Is the asterisk [*] not big enough for you?

*Herd immunity applies to immunisation or infection, human to human transmitted or otherwise.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC261948/?page=2

Believe it or not, I did see your asterisk and your link. But I wonder if you took the time to go past the headline? It was published in 1985! Twenty-six years ago. I should hope medical research has done some progress since then… Not only that, but the authors acknowledge that their study is small (57 persons in one group, 58 in another) and the groups compared not demographically balanced.

But even if we grant that this study could still be useful today, haven’t you noticed the authors’ conclusion? It’s there in black and white:

Because the disease is still taking a heavy toll in developing countries, killing 500,000 to 1,000,000 children each year, one should note that it is imperative to implement immunization in those countries.

Because even if some people can develop a level of natural immunity sufficient to ward off disease without being vaccinated, it doesn’t mean that all children are able to do so! Or to retain immunity all their life in the absence of boosters. It’s frustrating that the human species has so much genetic variation, but it’s true.

And the proof is that at the time this study was conducted, up to a million of children died of tetanus each year. This is what happen if one trusts only nature.

IreneD,

Hey! Pull yourself together and fix your blockquotes. You’re mixing them all together. What a mess.

*raises hand*

I’m a friend of the blog, and I’ve ended up with comments in temporary moderation when they were only a couple short paragraphs. Blogs tend to have software for blocking spam, and it gets overzealous.

I’ve had a laughably stupid, racist troll run afoul of my blogspot’s software, and I ended up reposting his stupidity through my account just so that others would get a chance to eviscerate it. And yet, he still cried censorship because he just knew I was magically aware of his post and the details of its content the exact second he clicked ‘submit,’ even though it takes up to a minute or two for the notification email to reach me, some time for me to notice the email, and more time to read several long paragraphs. If I was ‘afraid’ of what so-called truths he was preaching, it was temporally impossible and entirely inconsistent with my behavior of reposting his incoherent rants just so that I could point out the logical fallacies, his naivete about human nature, and laugh at him. But it’s perfectly within the power of computer software to notice key words and phrases and block the post in milliseconds.

If you want to see real censorship, visit an anti-vax site. They love their ban hammers.

Sorry for the delay. Grandchildren came much earlier than I expected & other unexpected interferences popped up keeping me from writing & hunting the back up I need to show you. This is serious & your children are in real danger. Even you who beLIEve in vaccines or push them knowing the danger won’t like this. I will get to it as soon as I can & read the additional comments that came in, too.

Looking forward to it Marsha – it must be amazing, given how long you’ve made us wait for the “revelation.”

I wonder if Marsha spells believe that way when it comes to the bible?

It wouldn’t be worth responding to the nonsense you try to propagate, except that there are plenty of innocent bystanders online who might be suckered in by the deluge of half-baked anti-vaccine propaganda.

I wouldn’t worry too much about that in this case. If Th1Th2 has ever succeeded in convincing anyone of anything that it intended to, I haven’t seen it. And it certainly hasn’t been able to point out an example or even concoct one when directly asked.

@BronzeDog

If you want to see real censorship, visit an anti-vax site. They love their ban hammers.

I remember my days (well, day, to be more precise) trolling the MDC forums… If I recall, I got banned after two posts.

I hear posts were removed that didn’t fit the guidelines of this snake pit where I doubt sincere people are regulars & I bet they included mine, right?

It’s hard to have a good-faith argument with someone whose standard of evidence is “I hear”.

Sorry for the delay. Grandchildren came much earlier than I expected & other unexpected interferences popped up keeping me from writing & hunting the back up I need to show you. This is serious & your children are in real danger. Even you who beLIEve in vaccines or push them knowing the danger won’t like this. I will get to it as soon as I can & read the additional comments that came in, too.

Oh goody, Marsha sounds like a redux of that nutter we had last year who promised his epic mind-blowing exposure of the vaccine industry over a year ago. The one who somehow interviewed the FDA, CDC, FBI, and The Mossad et al.

I’m one of these lurkers that is speaking up to commend those of you who are so patiently defending science. This has been a most entertaining way to spend some holiday time while my children (yes, I’m a Mother!!) play with their friends and their new goodies. It is, however, shocking to see a nurse and a teacher so far out of touch with reality. My mother is a nurse, and mother-in-law is a teacher. Mom saw many children pass away from vaccine-preventable diseases back when she first started out, and my MIL had polio as a child. All 3 of us are highly-educated mothers, your target audience. Many of you new commenters would probably assume we would see things your way …. but since I am also a health care professional who has actually worked in research, I can promise you that after reading the literature I have come to the appropriate conclusions regarding vaccine safety.

So I think it’s time for you to all go and enjoy your New Year, and go back to wherever it is you came from.

#483 Marsha

Stand by for that important message that I promised.

Standing by Marsha. In fact I’ve even rearranged my schedule a little to be sure I can be privy to that urgent message as soon as it comes in.

then I have bigger fish to fry.

Could you keep us posted on the frying of these bigger fish? I for one would love to observe these fry ups.

#495

…keeping me from writing & hunting the back up I need to show you.

I understand. I really do.

I myself have made a number of earth shattering, nobel prize winning discoveries but so far have no evidence, alas not even tentative support, to back any of them up. It is coming though.

@missmayinga:

I remember my days (well, day, to be more precise) trolling the MDC forums…

Has the meaning of “troll” and “trolling” changed over the recent years? Currently it seems to mean something like “arguing in an online venue when your views are diametrically opposed to the views of the venue”.

@Science Mom:

Oh goody, Marsha sounds like a redux of that nutter we had last year who promised his epic mind-blowing exposure of the vaccine industry over a year ago.

Yeah, that’s exactly who I was thinking of. “Smarter Than You” would show us all… eventually.

Marsha keeps telling us about the big announcement, and all these great things she says will happen. I’m just wondering who goes around bragging about victories they haven’t yet won? All they’re doing is making themselves look a) arrogant, b) desperate, or c) both.