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Antivaccine nonsense Medicine

Andrew Wakefield: Recognized as the Great Science Fraud that he is

In deciding to sue Brian Deer, Fiona Godlee, and the BMJ for Brian Deer’s BMJ article about his scientific fraud a year ago, Andrew Wakefield was clearly grabbing for publicity, seeking to fire up his supporters (which he’s largely succeeded in doing), and trying to make himself relevent again after the allegations published in the BMJ a year ago led to his further decline. Regarding making himself relevant again, I might caution Andy to be careful: He might just get what he wished for, just not in the way he wished it. After all, right before his lawsuit became public, Wakefield had already been listed by Medscape as the worst doctor of 2011 for his research fraud. What could come next?

How about being listed among the Great Science Frauds of all time by TIME Magazine, along with Woo Suk Huang and Charles Dawson (the latter of whom is particularly amusing, givne how Brian Deer referred to Andrew Wakefield’s work as “Piltdown medicine” in his expose for the BMJ)? Check it out:

Do vaccines cause autism? Medical experts say no, but we can thank Wakefield for introducing the doubt that won’t die in many parents’ minds. In 1998, the gastroenterologist at Royal Free Hospital in London published a study describing a connection between the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine and autism, after he found evidence of these viruses, presumably from the shot, in the guts of a dozen autistic children, eight of whom developed autism-like symptoms days after receiving their vaccination.

Other scientists could not replicate Wakefield’s findings, nor verify a link between the vaccine and autism. In 2010, the journal that published his paper retracted it, and its editors noted that “it was utterly clear, without any ambiguity at all, that the statements in the paper were utterly false.” Later that year, the General Medical Council in the U.K. revoked Wakefield’s medical license, citing ethical concerns over how he recruited the patients in the study as well as his failure to disclose that he was a paid consultant to attorneys representing parents who believed their children had been harmed by vaccines.

The final shoe dropped a year later, when another prestigious medical journal concluded that his research was also fraudulent, after evidence that some of the timelines of the children’s symptoms were misrepresented.

Great going, Andy! Keep it up, and maybe you can be on more lists like this in 2012!

In the meantime, we are reminded of the power of vaccination by this story, which points out that it’s been a year since the last case of polio was recorded in India. Although it has been delayed by antivaccine sentiments based on religion and paranoid conspiracy theories, the eradication of polio is now–finally!–potentially achievable. Just as smallpox was eradicated. Compare and contrast: Thousands of cases of measles in the U.K. and Europe, largely thanks to the fear of the MMR stoked largely by Wakefield’s fraudulent research. No matter how much Wakefield’s antivaccine fans try to spin it otherwise, that is how Wakefield will be remembered by history, and, in my opinion, rightly so.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

810 replies on “Andrew Wakefield: Recognized as the Great Science Fraud that he is”

In the meantime, we are reminded of the power of vaccination by this story, which points out that it’s been a year since the last case of polio was recorded in India. Although it has been delayed by antivaccine sentiments based on religion and paranoid conspiracy theories, the eradication of polio is now–finally!–potentially achievable.

Ahh as usual Orac loves reading the tabloid. Let’s take a look shall we?

India’s victory, if it’s validated by careful vetting over next few months, comes at a time when the possibility of global eradication has never never looked so close. When all the numbers for 2011 are in, WHO expects to count about 700 cases of polio — about half the total in 2010.

Really?

History has a way of sorting people into their proper bin. Wakefield’s will be labeled ‘Dust’.

Not sure what thingy is on about. Polio case numbers are at an all-time low and dropping. Good for India.

Orac, don’t look now, but there’s a company in the US selling a cure for skin cancer, their share price just quadrupled, is it for real? Ticker CBIS.

Even if Polio is eradicated, sugar cubes should still be given to kids when visiting the nurse or doctor. That’s the best part.

Well, Wakefield is getting publicity all right, just not the kind this “brave maverick doctor” would want, unless he’s just going for notoriety.

I don’t know either what Thingy is about – but since Thingy is not really understandable, that is nothing new.

Well, Wakefield is getting publicity all right, just not the kind this “brave maverick doctor” would want, unless he’s just going for notoriety.

I don’t know either what Thingy is about – but since Thingy is not really understandable, that is nothing new.

Not sure what thingy is on about.

There’s a certain appealing symmetry to this entry in its oeuvre, as the quotes it chose could be reversed, or in fact replaced with pretty much anything else, and it would make just as much sense.

Thing is so delusional that she’d rather wait until someone shows symptoms before they’re excluded from social activities in light of a measles cluster. We’ve tried telling her time and time again that measles doesn’t show symptoms until after the person is infectious. And now we know that measles may not show symptoms at all, yet still kill someone:

http://bit.ly/w85GwS

And that is the hallmark of a Wakefielder, someone who is told the facts over and over but will not listen. I’m sure a flurry of posts is forthcoming to attack TIME, and that the cub scout reporter will find a number of degrees of separation between TIME editors and Big Bad Voodoo Pharma. Shall we say, by next Tuesday at the latest?

So will Wakefield be suing Medscape and Time next?

No cases of polio in India for a year, and only 700 globally in 2011 is somehow a bad thing on Planet Thingy? Sad.

Geez, Thingy’s latest entry in the comments is even dumber than its usual entries. I mean, seriously. No cases of polio recorded in India for a year and only 700 worldwide in 2011, only half the number recorded the year before? And Thingy thinks that’s evidence that my saying that the eradication of polio and is now “potentially achievable” is off-base? Geez, up is down and down really is up in Thing-world!

“Thousands of cases of measles in the U.K. and Europe, largely thanks to the fear of the MMR stoked largely by Wakefield’s fraudulent research”

Orac are you referring to the 1998 article? Can you link to any studies showing that that article is the sole or primary contributing cause? As opposed to other possible causes for fear of the MMR vaccine? Eg. reports of post vaccination “adverse events”? You have been writing daily for years on this subject. Are people not taking what you say seriously? Or are the attacks on Wakefield and vaccine safety questioners counterproductive by keeping the controversy in the public mind?

Did Thingy misunderstand what it read? It may have mistakenly thought “…WHO expects to count about 700 cases of polio” in India this year. But the 700, as I understand it, is a worldwide count. No recorded cases at all in India for 2011, as Orac stated.

I think Wakefield did a great job destroying his career – he didn’t need any help….commit fraud & you pay the price.

What he is also guilty of is creating a false sense of fear in the minds of parents, which directly contributed to what we are seeing in Europe today – a reemergence of childhood diseases.

At least here, in the United States, we don’t have a country next door with low vaccination rates (like Switzerland, for example) to readily export the diease across national borders. Of course, no small favor, since a majority of current outbreaks here can be linked to families coming back from overseas.

Is Mr Wakefield in trouble? He has to prove the BMJ did not believe what it said about him. But here is Robert Rust, pediatric neurologist, giving evidence in federal court in October 2007, talking about Wakefield’s research:

‘The gathering of information from nonsequential patients, demonstrating those patients in the medical literature in ways that misrepresent the manner in which those patients were gathered, failure to misrepresent economic advantage related to publication, a wide variety of things. The medical community is relatively forgiving about some things in its community, but scientific fraud is not one of those things that we forgive. We’d be very careful before we assign that sort of thing, but there is abundant evidence that that was the case here, and for us, it’s something that we don’t like…’

Three years later, BMJ did not just pull this thing out of its ass, did it?

Autism in the family? Developmental disorder in a loved one? Struggling to make ends meet?

I WANT YOUR MONEY

Hi, I’m Andy…

[email protected]

Orac are you referring to the 1998 article? Can you link to any studies showing that that article is the sole or primary contributing cause? As opposed to other possible causes for fear of the MMR vaccine? Eg. reports of post vaccination “adverse events”?

Can you link to some studies that show MMR uptake is inversely correlated to reports of adverse events?

@15 and more. As someone involved in ‘autism’, starting out one thing was glaringly obvious to me. I put it to the back of my mind instantly of course, that I could cherry-pick a loyal harem of warrior single mums who nobody else listens to.

A sociopath would have no such restraint.

[email protected]

At least here, in the United States, we don’t have a country next door with low vaccination rates (like Switzerland, for example) to readily export the diease across national borders.

The problem is we don’t need a whole different country – we already have our own areas of low vaccination rates. I live in SD county, where we’ve already imported measles from overseas. I don’t want to think about what’s going to happen when the same kind of thing happens in Marin County (worse rates than ours). And, yeah, I did say when, not if.

Did Thingy misunderstand what it read?

It scarcely matters. Th1Th2 presumably wants to play “AFP-is-polio, haha!” again.

@ #19 Chemmomo: And don’t forget that each Waldof school in the US is its own little unvaccinated “country.” Rudolph Steiner, a clairvoyant who knew all, started this school movement/cult. He saw that bad karma caused you to get diseases, and you needed to fight off these diseases in order to clear your karma. If you get vaccinated you never get to fight the disease, so it dogs you into your next life and your next, and the vaccination itself can destroy your soul. Something like that. Waldorf schools are all over the US and they’re full of unvaccinated kids.

@LAB:

Waldorf schools are all over the US and they’re full of unvaccinated kids.

Or as we like to call the, disease vectors.

And Thingy thinks that’s evidence that my saying that the eradication of polio and is now “potentially achievable” is off-base? Geez, up is down and down really is up in Thing-world!

That’s funny because in 2000, there were only 719 polio cases worldwide. Yeah keep bragging Orac.

Like I said before, poliomyelitis cannot be eradicated for as long as OPV is being used. Oh look, it’s exactly 12 years since they predicted polio would be eradicated in 2000. So your thought of polio eradication as being “potentially achievable” is actually an inevitable and disgraceful exit plan.

Like I said before, poliomyelitis cannot be eradicated for as long as OPV is being used.

Well, it certainly can’t be eradicated by your preferred fantasy, so scurry along now.

False rumors of vaccine side effects reported to have contributed greatly to missing the original goal of eradicating polio by 2001 according to WHO.

I suspect thingy has been seeding those rumors. For shame.

That’s funny because in 2000, there were only 719 polio cases worldwide. Yeah keep bragging Orac.

Reading comprehension, Thingy, try it for once! See what Orac wrote in his last paragraph?

“In the meantime, we are reminded of the power of vaccination by this story, which points out that it’s been a year since the last case of polio was recorded in India. Although it has been delayed by antivaccine sentiments based on religion and paranoid conspiracy theories, the eradication of polio is now–finally!–potentially achievable.”

(My emphasis.)

Of course the illness comes back when part of the affected population stops taking the vaccine. The OPV was working in Africa, until religious integrists in Nigeria started claiming that vaccines were against the will of God. It created a situation where part of the population had got the live vaccine, while another part was left totally unprotected. This enabled the attenuated virus strain used in the vaccine to find new hosts and become more dangerous, an unfortunate example of microbe evolving when a new ecological niche opens, thanks to natural selection.

And then, because people travel, the virus got out of Nigeria and the eradication of polio was delayed. What got the program back on track? New and better campaigns for vaccination and health education!

That’s funny because in 2000, there were only 719 polio cases worldwide.

Correction: 719 confirmed wildtype polio cases. It wasn’t until 2001 that the infrastructure to differentiate between wildtype, OPV, and cVDPV cases was completed. Total polio cases that year was nearly 3,000. We were so close, but then Nigeria and Pakghanistandia had their program disrupted.

Like I said before, poliomyelitis cannot be eradicated for as long as OPV is being used.

And once wildtype poliovirus is eradicated, we can stop using OPV. Switch over to IPV in any areas where there’s cVDPV (which is actually quite rare), and poliomyelitis from any source will be gone in short order.

Correction: 719 confirmed wildtype polio cases. It wasn’t until 2001 that the infrastructure to differentiate between wildtype, OPV, and cVDPV cases was completed. Total polio cases that year was nearly 3,000.

That “correction” is definitely a realization among infection promoters. It only means one thing, the majority of polio cases were actually caused by the OPV and its derivative (VDPV).

And once wildtype poliovirus is eradicated, we can stop using OPV. Switch over to IPV in any areas where there’s cVDPV (which is actually quite rare), and poliomyelitis from any source will be gone in short order.

I think the OPV has taken over the wild-type as the leading cause of paralysis (99,843 paralysis in 2011 compared to only 13,857 in 1996). That’s more than a rumor.

BTW Orac, in 2001, there were only 483 confirmed cases of polio. What gives? Are they doing a piss-poor job promoting the vaccine?

That’s more than a rumor.

You’re right, it’s also “being late to one’s own lonesome party.”

There were 665 total confirmed polio cases last year, of which 45 were due to vaccine derived polio virus, though the numbers will likely be updated in time. Thingy is 99,798 cases off, unless you believe there is an international conspiracy involving countless people intent on deceiving the world about the polio vaccine with the evil aim of crippling thousands for no apparent reason. If you do believe that, you might feel more at home at Prison Planet or whale.to, instead of a science blog that deals with facts and evidence.

“That’s funny because in 2000, there were only 719 polio cases worldwide. Yeah keep bragging Orac.”

From: Unicef Press Centre Fact Sheet (and many other sources)

Calendar Year 2000:

* 2979 wild poliovirus cases are reported worldwide – a 99% decrease from 1988.
* The WHO Western Pacific Region is certified polio-free on 29 October.
* Seventeen west and central African countries vaccinate 76 million children during unprecedented ‘synchronized’ national immunization days (NIDs).
* Over 240 000 childhood deaths are averted through administration of Vitamin A during polio immunization days in over 50 countries.
* A poliovirus importation from Angola to the island nation of Cape Verde, polio-free for over a decade, resulted in 56 cases of paralysis, including 17 deaths.

“That’s funny because in 2000, there were in fact 2,979 confirmed polio cases worldwide. Yeah keep bragging SFB delusional troll.”

-FTFY SFB Troll

Krebiozen,

There were 665 total confirmed polio cases last year, of which 45 were due to vaccine derived polio virus, though the numbers will likely be updated in time.

OK so we have the wild-type and VDPV but something is missing from the triad. Oh here it is, vaccine-related poliovirus which is usually excreted by OPV recipients hence the 99,000+ paralysis in 2011. So when they look at the stool sample from a paralytic and finds a vaccine-related poliovirus, that case is “discarded” as not polio.

Bravo!

Thingy is 99,798 cases off, unless you believe there is an international conspiracy involving countless people intent on deceiving the world about the polio vaccine with the evil aim of crippling thousands for no apparent reason.

They’ve been doing that since 1935.

IreneD,

Of course the illness comes back when part of the affected population stops taking the vaccine. The OPV was working in Africa, until religious integrists in Nigeria started claiming that vaccines were against the will of God. It created a situation where part of the population had got the live vaccine, while another part was left totally unprotected. This enabled the attenuated virus strain used in the vaccine to find new hosts and become more dangerous, an unfortunate example of microbe evolving when a new ecological niche opens, thanks to natural selection.

That is exactly what you would expect of the “advantages” and “benefits” of using OPV; by promoting the disease through secondary spread to close contacts hence “passive” immunity. You’re not complaining are you?

Eh, even we don’t give a shit at this point. The bot has expressed an interest in a career change to becoming a convection oven.

Let the truth be known. Vaccinations had very little, if anything, to do with the decline in infectious diseases over the past 100 years. The rate of mortality & morbidity declined because of improved social conditions, which occurred well before the introduction of vaccines or anti-biotiocs.This is well known. Read the Role of Medicine by Professor Thomas McKeown, or How to Raise a Healthy Child by Professor Robert Mendelsohn or Medicine Out of Control by Dr Richard Taylor.

@Emily – so, how exactly does “improved sanitation” decrease the incidence of airborne diseases?

What a stinking pile of crap you’ve delivered to our doorstep…..

Emily that’s true, these diseases declined because of sewerage, better food, housing improvements, open windows, & other hygienic measures.

Vaccinations have become the sacred cow of modern medicine & in a more enlightened age, will be looked on as nothing more than bad medicine. Fevers were regarded as harmful for 80 years by most of the medical profession, until March 2011 when the American Academy of Pediatricians (AAP) woke up to the truth & reversed its stance, despite this knowledge being known for over 50 years (Drs Tilden, Trall etc). Better late than never, although sadly it cost thousands of people’s lives.

Vaccinations will one day become another medical reversal, but not for many years. There is too much power & money at stake.

The rate of mortality & morbidity declined because of improved social conditions, which occurred well before the introduction of vaccines or anti-biotiocs.

That’s a pretty incompetent version even of this talking point, Emily.

Lawrence, just read Professor McKeown’s book The Role of Medicine. Not only does he state that vaccines had almost nothing to do with the decline in so-called “killer” infectious diseases, but he also quotes the WHO in stating that vaccination programs are indeed questionable in helping third word countries.

Vaccinations have become the sacred cow of modern medicine

Hi, I lurve Sherri Tenpenny.

“Orac are you referring to the 1998 article? Can you link to any studies showing that that article is the sole or primary contributing cause?”

Mr. Doherty, have you read the MMWR recently, about outbreaks of measles? I especially recommend for your perusal “Notes From The Field: Measles Outbreak—Hennepin County, Minnesota, February–March 2011” (MMWR, April 8, 2011). You do know, don’t you, that Wakefield with his new “theory of increased risk for autism in Somali children after vaccination with MMR vaccine”, had targeted and met with Somali parents during three visits just prior to outbreak? You do know, don’t you, that the “index case” was an unvaccinated Somali child, infected in Africa who was responsible for secondary and terciary transmission of measles?

“As opposed to other possible causes for fear of the MMR vaccine? Eg. reports of post vaccination “adverse events”? You have been writing daily for years on this subject. Are people not taking what you say seriously?”

Mr. Doherty possible “adverse events” do not include autism onset…no matter what Wakefield states, no matter what notorious anti-vax website’s “science journalists” state and no matter what credulous parents “sense” or “intuit”.
Orac and posters here do not deny the exceeding, practically infinitesimal rare “adverse event” associated with the MMR vaccine…or any other vaccine.

“Or are the attacks on Wakefield and vaccine safety questioners counterproductive by keeping the controversy in the public mind?”

Mr. Doherty…see my comment about Wakefield’s forays into the Somali community in Minneapolis. Perhaps you are unaware that I am retired from public health. I worked in the Division of Communicable Disease Control and in public health clinics. I saw first hand the impact that Wakefield, had and continues to have on the public health system in the United States. He and his “minions” at anti-vax websites continue to stir up the sh** with their bogus theories about autism and vaccines.

Wakefield’s latest gambit is the lawsuit he instituted against the BMJ, Fiona Godlee and Brian Deer. Isn’t about time that this disgraced public health menace fade from the picture and take the NVIC, AoA, SaneVax and their gullible sycophants with them?

Too much money and power in vaccines. Oh, my God, I laughed so hard on that one. Yeah, vaccine manufacturers are just swimming in money from vaccines. I mean, why create and market Viagra when you can just stop polio or prevent meningitis? Let’s make a business decision: instead of selling antibiotics and extended stays in hospitals from infections, let’s prevent the friggin’ things. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

I am yet to hear ONE anti-vaccine talking point that is either scientifically verifiable or passes the test of common sense. I’m waiting, though. You know where to find me when you do.

Emily and Gardener, can you please tell us why the morbidity (rate) of measles went down 90% in the USA between 1960 and 1970? Do not change the subject to mortality (deaths), any other country nor any other decade. Just answer the question.

Please provide actual citations in your response, not those books. Or a obscure claims by the a medical entity with some names like Gardener used. The citations should be official government cites like the one below, or the title, journal and dates of PubMed indexed papers.

Here is the data:

From http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
Year…. Rate per 100000 of measles
1912 . . . 310.0
1920 . . . 480.5
1925 . . . 194.3
1930 . . . 340.8
1935 . . . 584.6
1940 . . . 220.7
1945 . . . 110.2
1950 . . . 210.1
1955 . . . 337.9
1960 . . . 245.4
1965 . . . 135.1
1970 . . . . 23.2
1975 . . . . 11.3
1980 . . . . . 5.9
1985 . . . . . 1.2
1990 . . . . .11.2

“Fevers were regarded as harmful for 80 years by most of the medical profession, until March 2011 when the American Academy of Pediatricians (AAP) woke up to the truth & reversed its stance, despite this knowledge being known for over 50 years (Drs Tilden, Trall etc). Better late than never, although sadly it cost thousands of people’s lives.”

I don’t think “Gardener” interpreted the “Pediatrics” article correctly. Gardener where does it say in the article that the AAP are reversing “its stance, despite this knowledge being known for over 50 years”? Here is the substance of the Pediatrics article…instead of “Gardener’s interpretation”.:

Fever in a child is one of the most common clinical symptoms managed by pediatricians and other health care providers and a frequent cause of parental concern. Many parents administer antipyretics even when there is minimal or no fever, because they are concerned that the child must maintain a “normal” temperature. Fever, however, is not the primary illness but is a physiologic mechanism that has beneficial effects in fighting infection. There is no evidence that fever itself worsens the course of an illness or that it causes long-term neurologic complications. Thus, the primary goal of treating the febrile child should be to improve the child’s overall comfort rather than focus on the normalization of body temperature. When counseling the parents or caregivers of a febrile child, the general well-being of the child, the importance of monitoring activity, observing for signs of serious illness, encouraging appropriate fluid intake, and the safe storage of antipyretics should be emphasized.

(Source: Pediatrics: Clinical Report: Fever and Antipyretic Use Use In Children-Janice E. Sullivan, M.D., etal)

(hint to “Gardiner”-Phrases such as “X were regarded as harmful by most of the medical profession”, “It is well-known fact that Y…” and “I think or believe that Z…” raise red flags with people who actually know the science behind medicine and vaccines.)

@Krebiozen:

So will Wakefield be suing Medscape and Time next?

He’ll wait until the statute of limitation has almost run out and then sue them.

Emily and Gardener,

It’s probably true that 90% of the reduction in morbidity and mortality from (some) infectious diseases over the past 100 years was due to improved hygiene and other improvements in social conditions. However, that last 10% due to vaccination and other improvements in medical care, such as antibiotics, is very important.

For example, the reduction in mortality from TB from 500 per 100,000 in 1850, to 46 per 100,000 in 1940 was probably mostly due to improved social conditions. But the reduction from the 1940 level to essentially zero as it is today is mostly due to vaccinations and improved medical care. Can you imagine if 46 per 100,000 people died of TB in the USA every year? That would be more than 130,000 people every year, 10 times the current homicide rate and more than twice the number of people killed in automobile accidents. I could quote similar figures for several other infectious diseases. As I say, that last 10% is very important.

Anyway, if vaccination doesn’t prevent infectious diseases, and they were entirely reduced or eradicated by improved social conditions, why is it that every time vaccination uptake falls it is followed by outbreaks of the disease. Look at the fall in pertussis vaccinations in the UK in the late 70s and 80s due to a false vaccine scare that resulted in huge outbreaks of whooping cough and dozens of deaths. Look at the current situation in Europe, especially France, where thousands of cases of measles, hundreds of cases of pneumonia and encephaliitis and several deaths are the result of a fall in vaccination rates. Pertussis and measles in the USA is following a similar pattern though it is not yet as serious.

Or look at the UK where there is no vaccination for chicken pox, and almost everyone gets chicken pox as a child. In the USA where chicken pox vaccination is routine, chicken pox is rare. Are Brits just much less hygienic than Americans, and that is why there is such a huge difference?

Really, it is silly to suggest that vaccines don’t work. There are hundreds of controlled studies from around the world that demonstrate very clearly that they do.

@ Emily: This is your statement:

Professor McKeown’s book The Role of Medicine. Not only does he state that vaccines had almost nothing to do with the decline in so-called “killer” infectious diseases, but he also quotes the WHO in stating that vaccination programs are indeed questionable in helping third word countries.

Gee Emily, I haven’t read McKeown’s book…for most of my career in public health, I was investigating “killer” infectious diseases that really do kill and maim the innocent.

Gee Emily, I also read extensively about the activities of the WHO and haven’t come across any such statement that questions vaccination programs…anywhere in the world. Could you possibly provide, some more information, like a citation, maybe…from that (unknown entity) at the WHO?

What these “morons” refuse to take into account is, yes, modern medicine was able to prevent more people from dying from these diseases, but they were completely unable to prevent the various serious secondary problems – like sterility, blindess, etc. from happening as well.

So yes, there was an overall decrease in the number of people who died from these childhood dieases before the advent of the various vaccines, but #1 – not nearly to the extent as after the vaccines were introduced, and #2 – they did nothing to prevent the various secondary side-effects to occur (blindness, sterility, enchephilitis, etc).

Whereas vaccines prevent the disease from happening in the first place, and any side-effects are magnitudes lower than what occured with the actual disease itself.

So, go pound sand, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Should anyone care where Gardener is coming from, Russell Thacker Trall and John H. Tilden were run-of-the-mill 19th- and early 20th-century “natural hygiene” types.

I tried to find out what Gardener was talking about, so I Googled using “March 2011 when the American Academy of Pediatricians (AAP) woke up to the truth & reversed its stance, despite this knowledge being known for over 50 years (Drs Tilden, Trall “, and then cut it down to “March 2011 American Academy of Pediatricians Tilden Trall.” This is what I found: a comment from a “Dr. Greg” at the Australian (anti)Vaccination Network blog:

This was highlited in March 2011 when the American Academy of Pediatricians (AAP) acknowledged that fevers WERE important & beneficial & were not to be routinely interfered with. This medical reversal was huge, even though tragically late, & still today we see kids routinely having their fevers suppressed. Medical students are still taught to view fevers as antagonistic to health. This medical reversal should never have had to occur, had medical training been based on biological principles which were known over 100 years ago ( Drs Trall, Jennings, Tilden etc).

There are other parts that Gardener poorly plagiarized. He is either “Dr. Greg” or just cannot think for himself.

I also checked a couple of American Academy of Pediatrics websites and PubMed for “Trall” but found nothing. I checked PubMed for “tilden” and found several papers, but none in March 2011. Which is why we insist on more information in cites.

@ #47 Chris:

The answer is “sewerage, better food, housing improvements, open windows, & other hygienic measures” learned from Leave it to Beaver. This program began in late 1957, ran until 1963, and continued in syndication to 1970 and beyond. June Cleaver kept a spotless, aired-out house and was a super cook. Americans learned how to wash their hands, teeth, and dishes by watching Wally and the Beav do these things. I was a kid in the 60s and 70s, I watched Leave it to Beaver, and I never got measles. If it wasn’t for Tony Dow (and Florence Bush for that matter), we’d all be dead. I don’t think I need PubMed to make this obvious point.

Krebiozen, so do I. I found a comment that almost matched Gardenr’s comment on Meryl Dorey’s blog posted by a chiropractor/naturopath in Australia.

Lawrence,

Emily is also denying that antibiotics had any effect either! I have a comment in moderation about this. It is easy to forget that in 1900 the biggest killers were pneumonia, TB, diphtheria and diarrhea, and up to a third of children died in infancy. Improvements in social conditions reduced morbidity and mortality from horrendous to simply awful. It was modern medicine in general and antibiotics and vaccines in particular that reduced them from simply awful to relatively rare in the developed world.

Vaccine and modern scientific medicine opponents seem to want us to go back to the days of “simply awful”.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4838a2.htm
Worth a read for a discussion of the relative contribution of public health measures to the amazing reduction in infant mortality from 1900 to 1999.

A quote, “from 1930 through 1949, mortality rates declined 52%”. Those were some pretty heavy duty improvements in social conditions in 20 years that included the 2nd World War.

Just noticed LAB above.

I watched Leave it to Beaver, and I never got measles.

How did you learn to avoid getting a disease that is spread by coughing and inhalation of viruses in aerosols by watching a TV show? Did it teach you to hold your breath for the entire school day? Would sending a subtitled version of Leave it to Beaver to France halt the epidemic of measles there? Or are you joking?

Emily,
Read Vaccine by Arthur Allen, and Polio an American Story by David Oshinsky.

Why are you recommending books written in 1980, (McKeown), 1987 (Mendelsohn), and 1979 (Taylor)? Please try joining us in the 21st century.

Krebiozen, he is joking. Anyway, the program was only produced between 1957 and 1963.

Didn’t the good Dr. Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP, also say that mumps wasn’t that bad since the Brady Bunch kids got through it fine or something like that?

@lilady #50 re Emily’s Thomas McKeown book recommendation:
I haven’t read it either, but I was able to dig up some Amazon reviews (no mean trick for a book that old). One of the two reviewers commented that one of McKeown’s points is that he’d prefer the money spent on vaccination be used to provide free meals for poor school children. The reviewer, even though she gave the book 4 stars, was not sold on that particular point.

And I think it’s worth noting again that the book was published in 1980.

@ Ren: I think you are right about Dr. Jay’s tweet regarding mumps…that was picked up by AoA and “other” websites.

I also recall a memorable “tweet” exchange between a science blogger on his “Epidemiology Night School” website and Dr. Jay about the 2011 measles outbreak in Minneapolis:

Epidemiology Night School: Introduction to Outbreaks (or “Don’t expect Dr. Jay to understand all this stuff”)

Didn’t the good Dr. Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP, also say that mumps wasn’t that bad since the Brady Bunch kids got through it fine or something like that?

Measles.

From the esteemed Professor McKeown, in his book The Role of Medicine:

” No knowledgeable person is likely to dispute that we owe the vast increase in expectation of life & reduction of associated morbidity to changes which occurred before effective clinical intervention was possible” p166;

” The effect of immunization on a population which is underfed is something of an open question…it is questionable whether infectious disease can be controlled by vaccination in a malnourished population” p162

If by chance you wish to call Professor McKeown ignorant, consider that The Lancet said in their journal it was “a remarkable book”; The NEJM: “exceptionally important & readable”; The BMJ: ” McKeown’s analysis is all the more valuable for its balance as well as for its clarity.” High recommendation indeed!

WHO Report: A Deadly Combination; Feb/March 1974:

” We have given too much attention to the enemy & have to some extent overlooked our own defences. For the time being, an adequate diet is the most effective ‘vaccine’ against most of the diarrhoeal, respiratory & other common infections” (Here, the attention to the enemy was the vaccinations).

Professor Robert Mendelsohn: How to Raise a Healthy Child :

” The greatest threat of childhood diseases lies in the dangerous & ineffectual efforts made to prevent them through mass immunization.Immunizations have been so artfully & aggressively marketed…much of what you have been led to believe about them simply isn’t true…. Although I adminstered them myself during the early years of my practice, I have since become a steadfast opponent of mass inoculations because of the myriad hazards they present. There is no scientific evidence that they can be credited with eliminating ANY (my emphasis) childhhod disease.” pp 209-210

I could go on but time is the enemy.

The answer is “sewerage, better food, housing improvements, open windows, & other hygienic measures” learned from Leave it to Beaver. This program began in late 1957, ran until 1963, and continued in syndication to 1970 and beyond. June Cleaver kept a spotless, aired-out house and was a super cook. Americans learned how to wash their hands, teeth, and dishes by watching Wally and the Beav do these things. I was a kid in the 60s and 70s, I watched Leave it to Beaver, and I never got measles. If it wasn’t for Tony Dow (and Florence Bush for that matter), we’d all be dead. I don’t think I need PubMed to make this obvious point.

You might want to learn something about measles, because it is one of the diseases that sanitation doesn’t protect you from. Measles is one of the most contagious viruses known, and it primarily spread through the air. Indeed, people have caught measles simply by being in the same room that a person with measles was in previously. So if you didn’t catch measles, you were probably just lucky. But that good luck could turn bad, because with unfounded fears of measles vaccination that are have continued to circulate even years after Wakefield was discredited, herd immunity is broken in many parts of the country, so you could easily be exposed just by walking by somebody who has it. And measles is more severe in adults. Perhaps you should get vaccinated.

Emily…I too have time constraints. Just a quickie comment about your hero Dr. Mendelsohn; he has an entire page on the whale.to website.

I suggest you educate yourself in science-based medicine, not the deluded ramblings of this quack doctor…then come back to post here.

To Chemmomo: If McKeown in 1980 to you is outdated, then what do we call Edward Jenner in 1798?

Emily, any reason why you did not answer my fairly simple question? Why did the measles morbidity drop by 90% in the USA between 1960 and 1970?

If you find someone citing Jenner as his or her only reference regarding vaccines, we’ll be glad to criticize.

Emily:

To Chemmomo: If McKeown in 1980 to you is outdated, then what do we call Edward Jenner in 1798?

A historical figure, and whose vaccine was modified over the years. Plus there have been no smallpox outbreaks in decades.

Please answer my question.

To Lilady:

Medicine is science-based? Whas that my imagination when I read that Glaxo-Smith Kline was fined $3 BILLION for fraud & dishonesty in its drug testing/marketing? Science at its best!

The outgoing head of Medicare & Medicaid 2 months ago, Dr Donald Berwick, stating that fraud & overtreatment in the States causes thousands of deaths a year, 250 billion dollars pa & that up to one third of ALL medicine was a complete waste.

The founder of the PSA test for prostate problems, Dr Richard Ablin, himself stating the test he developed was “no better than a coin toss! & he was appalled that the test had become a medical cash-cow, with very little benefit.

Please understand that medicine & science rarely cross paths!

Emily, please tell us why measles morbidity in 1970 was only 10% of what is was in 1960 in the USA.

Support your answer with the title, journal and dates of the papers that explain how the rate of measles plunged so dramatically. Thank you.

Emily: Thank you for admitting that pharmaceutical companies are monitored by the government and punished for doing wrong. You’re considerably smarter than the folks who claim that a massive coverup of problems with vaccines exists.

Thomas, why doesn’t the government pull PSA testing off the honor roll? Why are GSK still allowed to do business with the US Government despite being found flagrantly guilty of fraud, when its contract states that fraudulent companies can not do business with the gov’t? And by the way, 3 billion is simply the “cost of doing business” (WAll Street). And Chris, there are many anomalies in life as there are in medicine. I will do my due diligence, but give me a while.

Meanwhile, I will raise my 4 unvaccinated children as naturally as possible & use modern medicine if & when there is a need, thus becoming a discerning consumer.

Emily:

And Chris, there are many anomalies in life as there are in medicine. I will do my due diligence, but give me a while.

Thank you.

As far as antibiotics not decreasing mortality, Emily, do you know what TB was nicknamed until antibiotics helped us fight back? It was called “the captain of the horsemen of death”. It wasn’t until antibiotics gave most of us a fighting chance that people stopped viewing TB (called consumption back in the day) as anything more than a painful and extended death sentence. This was especially true among patients getting secondary infections from viral infections like the flu.

Emily, please keep your unvaccinated disease vectors away from any kids/grown-ups who may be immunosuppressed or unable to be vaccinated for other reasons and who have to rely on herd immunity.

Why are GSK still allowed to do business with the US Government despite being found flagrantly guilty of fraud, when its contract states that fraudulent companies can not do business with the gov’t?

Emily, it might simplify the discussion if you would identify what you’re talking about rather than putting a bunch of sense impressions in a jar, shaking them up, and pouring them out.

First you’re referring to Avandia marketing, which is not a fraud case, then divert through “one third of ALL medicine was a complete waste” to PSA testing and then fraud again (Cidra?) and on to some random assertion about “its contract” and back to Avandia. It’s rather difficult to follow.

Emily:

I could go on but time is the enemy.

Yes, it is! It is your enemy. Time, and progress.

You’re supporting your position by cherry picking quotes from a book published 32 years ago, available through Amazon as a paperback from used booksellers, and that my public library doesn’t have! (They do have one of his other works, The Origins of Human Disease, but they’re not open this late on a Saturday.) I have no way of evaluating what McKeown acutally wrote for myself. In any case, who cares if the Lancet considered it remarkable 32 years ago? Time, and scientific progress, march on. We have 32 more years’ worth of data today than McKeown did.
And your WHO quote from 1974? Are you kidding me? How about if we take a look at the WHO website today, in 2012, and check out their current recommendations? This pages links to tables of recommended vaccines for various ages groups: http://www.who.int/immunization/policy/immunization_tables/en/index.html
This is what WHO recommends, now.
And your quotation from Mendelsohn only suggests that he became a crackpot. He wrote that after smallpox (which I’ll admit is a disease not exclusive to childhood) had been eliminated. Why would anyone take a person with such a loose grasp of facts seriously?

As for Jenner, if you think the smallpox vaccine that I received as a child but is no longer routinely administered due to the eradication of the disease is the exact same thing that Jenner used two centuries ago, you’re even more ignorant than I thought.
Oh, and if your time is so precious, why is it that in the time it took me to compose this post (including searching the WHO website), you posted two more times, without actually addressing any of the questions asked of you earlier?

Again, please join us in the 21st century. And if your library is open tomorrow, go check out a copy of Arthur Allen’s Vaccine and read it.

One more try:
I now have a comment in moderation addressing Emily. And a second comment complaining about the moderation. Perhaps a bit too specifically. Hopefully this one will go through.

Emily,

why doesn’t the government pull PSA testing off the honor roll

I’ve been responsible for issuing thousands of PSA reports. It’s a very useful test when used properly. When used for monitoring the progress of a man with confirmed prostate cancer it is invaluable. As an indiscriminate screening test, not so much – too many false positives.

We would only do a PSA on men who had symptoms of prostatic problems, but that was in an NHS lab in the UK where we had a limited budget and the power to say no to doctors requesting tests that were not clinically indicated. I also worked for a private hospital for a while where we just did whatever the doctor ordered, as s/he was paying for it. The science is not to blame, it’s politics, doctors scared of being sued, and patients insisting on the latest tests that are the real problems with PSA. The science about when it is useful and when it isn’t is quite clear.

@ Emily:

Pharmaceutical company employees, doctors, and government officials can all commit fraud because they are *people*- who can be corrupt regardless of their profession. It is simply human nature: because our minds utilise linguistic representations we can easily- and duplicitously- know one thing and say another. We can plan, manipulate, and disguise our motives in order to benefit ourselves. Some people are very good at this: lying becomes second nature- perhaps they even fool themselves.

If you condemn an entire industry or the medical establishment ( let’s not forget the media and government while we’re at it: fraud is everywhere!) you’ll need to apply that mechanism – “an example of fraud means- don’t trust the whole sector”- to alt med as well. Fraud has been perpetrated by natural health providers ( see Quackwatch); there is a less oversight because there are no standards for education, training, and review. I survey these proselytisers and believe that their constant finger pointing at medical and pharma fraud is merely a way to recruit new customers while distracting their clients from their own deceitful advertisement, unsubstantiated claims, and foolhardy untested treatments.

Let me get this straight.

If a multinational company that makes drugs (and immunizations, because I don’t classify vaccines personally as drugs) commits fraud, let’s wipe the slate clean and get rid of all of their products no matter how beneficial they were found to be?

On the other hand, if a charlatan sells you snake oil and promises that it will cure whatever ails you while, at the same time, writing in the fine print that their product is not intended to diagnose, treat, or cure any disease… Well, by all means, let’s buy from them and buy a lot. Because selling you a placebo is not fraud, don’t you know?

Selling you magic in a homeopathic remedy or an industrial chelant to add to your Frosted Flakes is not fraud. Injecting your own urine (which your God-given kidneys got rid of for a reason), that’s not fraud? All of those things advertised in anti-vax sites that will detoxify you and reverse autism (though they’re not intended to diagnose, treat, or cure any disease) are not fraud? No. They’re all natural, so they’re all good.

(Because nature intended for you to inject your own urine back into your veins, don’t you know?)

It’s the big companies that are regulated up the ass like it’s no body’s business to make sure that their mistakes are caught and corrected or punished that are corrupt that is the source of all evil. It’s that big conspiracy that is a huge secret that only you, the anti-vaxers, know about but are giving away by having some dude toss dice and figure out twelve degrees of separation between people.

How dumb do you really think people are?

I’d like to see the homeopaths, the alternating energy (AC not DC) healers, put their money where their mouth is and not put the “quack miranda notice” on their sites and on their advertisements. If you believe so much in them, then take off the disclaimer and let the bodies hit the floor chips fall where they may.

Oh, and all the anti-vax, anti-science people, groups, and websites, don’t bullsh*t us with the whole “we’re here to educate” or “we just want you to be an informed consumer”. No, no, no, no! Embrace who you are and stop playing this game. If you really wanted the “consumer” to be informed, you’d accept who you are, where your data anecdotes come from, and then let reasonable people decide if they want to listen to you or to the people that have put in the time and effort to understand basic biology.

Then again, there’s a sucker born a minute.

I have spent a bit too much time reading articles on McKeown. Most of what I got out of it was that he was big on ignoring major portions public health policies and their relationship with population growth. He also did not notice that populations started to stabilize and not grow in some industrial countries (Japan, most of Europe, portions of the USA). It would be interesting to see him interact with Dr. Hans Rosling of the Gapminder, whose videos exquisitely show that reducing child mortality and increasing maternal education cuts down on population growth. Which is also noted in a National Geographic article on population.

This article, Rethinking McKeown, is very interesting. He seem to support McKeown by starting out saying:

In my view each of the authors of the May 2002 Health Policy and Ethics Forum on McKeown1–3 misses his essential message, namely that “health has advanced significantly only since the late eighteenth century and until recently owed little to medical advances.”4

But then describes his experience in a developing country:

During the early 1960s, accompanied by my pregnant new wife, I traveled to Papua New Guinea to work as a children’s medical officer. At that time village social life was very traditional and was supported by a subsistence agricultural economy. Patterns of health and disease were also traditional, with endemic malaria, malnutrition, tuberculosis, diarrheal and respiratory diseases, neonatal tetanus, polio, intestinal worms, yaws, and high maternal mortality due to hemorrhage and infection. Infant mortality was more than 50% in some isolated settlements.

But his last paragraph totally goes counters to his opinion (emphasis added):

Although we lived literally in the middle of this village, neither my wife, our new baby, nor I succumbed to any of these lethal conditions. Neither did any of my White colonial expatriate colleagues. Why? Because we could afford good food, clean water, mosquito screens, shoes that prevented hookworms from entering our feet, and antenatal care, and of course we had been vaccinated against polio, tetanus, and mumps We also had health-related knowledge and technology—we knew the importance of handwashing and avoiding mosquito bites at dusk, and we had safe water supplies and safe systems for disposal of sewage. In other words, we had inherited the economic advantages, social behavior, and medical technology that combined to radically reduce the risk of malnutrition and communicable disease. This inheritance was not, of course, available to traditional Papua New Guineans.

I don’t think vaccines are just an economic benefit. There is a reason that measles in declining in Africa and increasing in Europe. I also noticed that McKeown as in the UK when there was no vaccine for mumps, and no MMR (he died in 1988).

Oh, rats, this got so long it is going into moderation. So I’ll just list the other articles (not bothering with html):
http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/30/6/1260.full
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447153/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447152/
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2808%2960292-5/fulltext

Happy reading. And I really hope Emily answers my question, I have been so disappointed with others previous attempts (though they have been somewhat amusing).

To add to Ren’s rant, I suggest everyone look at the link he provided in Comment #7. I want someone to seriously tell me that the French medical system actually paid Big Pharma less money because the patient did not get two MMR vaccines compared to the pharmaceuticals used in her hospital treatment. Really, was the hospital cost that much cheaper than the entire pediatric vaccines series?

(oh, and I have a comment in moderation, doncha know)

Emily…The PSA test and its validity as a screening test is being debated right now in the United States. The USPSTF (United States Preventive Services Task Force) recently recommended that it should not be used for “routine screening of any man”. Prior to this the USPSTF had recommended that the test should not be used for “routine screening of men age 75 and older”. The American Urological Association has raised some strong objections as have other physicians…and the general public. The debate is ongoing.

Emily, that is how Science works. Researchers, doctors and epidemiologists are constantly evaluating the value of screening blood tests and other screening modalities (mammograms and Pap smears) for low risk patients.

As Krebiozen stated “I’ve been responsible for issuing thousands of PSA reports. It’s a very useful test when used properly. When used for monitoring the progress of a man with confirmed prostate cancer it is invaluable. As an indiscriminate screening test, not so much – too many false positives.”

(anecdotal and coincidental): Yesterday, a close friend contacted me…a wee bit hysterical…about her husband’s PSA blood test. The physician who ordered the test and who had done a prostate biopsy a year ago..diagnosed BPH (benign prostatic hypertrophy)…and was “monitoring” this benign condition. My friend had to be talked off the precipice (she tends to get that “way”). I emailed her some articles written about PSA tests from the Science Based Medicine website…she is now at ease and will not ask the doctor to immediately repeat the test.

If you want to get an accurate picture of the medical landsacape, & you think that 1980 is ancient, then let’s travel to 1999 & the Journal of the American Medical Association editorial.This stated that the fourth leading cause of death in the world, after CHD, cancer & strokes, was modern medical drugs, prescibed properly & according to professional standards of care. When factoring in medical mistakes, including improperly prescribed drugs, it becomes the third leading cause of death.It stated that each year over 100,000 patients are killed by such drugs, properly prescribed! Over 1.2 million dead through medical drugs since that editorial. Great science!

Read Death by Presciption by Dr Ray Strand, & then tell me he is also a “nutter” for changing the way he practiced based on these scary 1999 revelations of his “bible” ie the JAMA.Call him a “quack” for harshly criticizing his own profession?

One blogger had it right in criticizing alternative therapies. There is just as much nonsense in them as in modern medicine, just that modern medicine kills infinitely more people, & covers it up better.

My 4 kids have NEVER taken one medication in their lives, nor have they taken a supplement, homeopathy, or any other supposed remedy.

If they are “disease vectors”, well they aren’t vectoring very well, because their health is the envy of other parents, especially those who raise their kids conventionally, with drugs at every turn of their lives. And please don’t tell me that they are a danger because they are “not protected” & therefore lowering herd immunity. I have never believed in the germ theory, let alone the superstition of herd immunity. Herd mentality is needed for that!

And what about the editorial of 2002 in the BMJ: WHO OWNS THE FDA: THE PEOPLE OR THE DRUG COMANIES? Believe it or not? Does that favor good science?

And lastly what about Marcia Engel, former editor of the NEJM for 20 years: ‘the medical profession has become the handmaiden of the drug industry’ from her book The Truth about the Drug Companies.But she must have crossed to the dark side, you will say, who would believe her?

The majority is often wrong. And yes, there is one born every minute, & they end up believing that injecting polysorbate 80, aluminium & other toxic chemicals & adjuvants on day one (& thereafter) of a baby’s birth confers health through protection against disease. Voodoo at its worst, but then intelligence & stupidity are not incompatible.
One day there will be an outbreak of common sense but it won’t come from the commercial healing modalities, from either side of the spectrum.

Chris…I got stuck in moderation too…commenting on the PSA test.

Ren’s linked article at #7 is very interesting and sad. A 29 year old woman who had NEVER received the MMR immunizations died from a measles complication-Adult Respiratory Distress Syndrome. She received every medical intervention available, yet died from the ARDS. I wonder how her parents feel, that the decision they made to not vaccinate her when she was a child, caused the premature death of their daughter?

@ Questioner: The measles virus is a single serotype. I believe you are referring to measles genotypes. Testing for the genotype prevalence (there are at least 23 measles genotypes) during an outbreak or epidemic, assists epidemiologists to trace the likely source country or region where the unknown “index” case(s) became infected.

Emily, if you insist on recommending Robert Mendelsohn’s books, you should read this. He was a medical nihilist (rather than a heretic) whose few good ideas were drowned out by unrelenting hostility and bitterness (as well as just plain nonsense).
He died at a tragically young age, 62, I believe. I’m aware that hostility is harmful to one’s health. I will say no more.

How dumb do you really think people are?

I dunno, how? You tell me, Orac bans anyone who’s too clever for him.

There’s proof!

Dear Moderator,

I still await my blog of 2 hours ago being published. What is the hold-up?

Emily – since you’re concerned about the minute amount of aluminium in a dose of vaccine, you are presumably even more concerned about the quantities found in food, drink – & breast milk?

Some of us are Awaiting Silent Tristero’s Empire, but you don’t catch us making a fuss about it.

That Emily denies germ theory is proof enough that she’s a complete nutter…..

I dunno, how? You tell me, Orac bans anyone who’s too clever for him.

Really? Name one person who’s been banned, “too clever” or not.

Bring it.

That I’ve noticed, Orac has banned at least half dozen separate people out of his fear that they could be a certain troll. I can’t link to posts that have been removed.

He’s like the chef in that cartoon, Ratatouille, seeing the rat behind every dissenting voice…

slutterella: You seem to have an virulent case of projection. You probably should get that seen to; some kind of ointment or similar.

Given all the “-ella” handles that have appeared in the past 48 hours or so, I suspect it’s more a virulent case of inability to spell one’s handle consistently. Does my mass spectrometer detect outlier levels of THC? 🙂

quoth Emily: “I have never believed in the germ theory, let alone the superstition of herd immunity. ”

Well, that’s that. As Churchill said, “Against such opinions it is vain to argue.”

Emily @92: “[In 1999] the Journal of the American Medical Association editorial …. stated that the fourth leading cause of death in the world, after CHD, cancer & strokes, was modern medical drugs, prescibed properly & according to professional standards of care. When factoring in medical mistakes, including improperly prescribed drugs, it becomes the third leading cause of death.It stated that each year over 100,000 patients are killed by such drugs, properly prescribed!”

Emily needs to work on her reading comprehension.  Here is a report on the top ten causes of death in 2008. Note that medical drugs didn’t make the top ten in any grouping, particularly not the whole world. Note also the numbers of death in each category: the smallest of them, breast cancer in high income countries, is 0.17 million, or 170,000, which is considerably greater than 100,000. 

Even someone who disbelieves the germ theory of disease and thinks herd immunity is a superstition ought to be able to do some simple computations like, there are more than six billion people in the world; at least one percent must die per year; that means at least 60,000,000 die per year; that means something that kills 100,000 per year cannot possibly be the fourth leading cause of death.

In fact, Emily, the JAMA editorial, that you didn’t name, quote, or link to, must be referring to deaths in the United States which, as many of us are aware, is not the whole world.

“I have never believed in the germ theory, let alone the superstition of herd immunity. Herd mentality is needed for that!”

I have never believed in the germ theory, (YES, WE COULD DISCERN THAT FROM YOUR POSTS) let alone the superstition of herd immunity. BASIC IGNORANCE AND DENIAL is needed for that!

-FTFY Emily

Emily, you are a “free rider” and by your ignorance and denial you have made your four rug rats little “germ” vectors. Make certain that you tell your wide group of friends who raise their children “conventionally” that your kids are vectors…especially the parents of newborns or parents of immune suppressed or immune compromised kids.

Emily,

Over 1.2 million dead through medical drugs since that editorial. Great science!

Even assuming that figure is correct, could you tell me how many of those people would have been dead long before without medical treatment? How many of those people were seriously ill, very elderly or both and in a hospital? The drugs that cause the largest number of adverse events, including death, are also those that provide the greatest benefits. Anticoagulant drugs are a good example, they kill more people than any other prescription drugs, probably thousands of people every year in the USA alone, mainly due to their narrow window of therapeutic safety, but they also save hundreds of thousands of lives. You have to balance the benefits against the risks. Just looking at the risks and ignoring or denying the benefits, as you are doing, leads an intelligent person to foolish conclusions.

modern medicine kills infinitely more people, & covers it up better

How would you treat someone with a clotting disorder? You clearly wouldn’t use anticoagulants like warfarin or heparin as they kill “infinitely more people”. In the USA about 2 million people a year have a deep vein thrombosis, and 600,000 die from blood clots? Would you stop prescribing anticoagulants to these people? That’s 2-3 million people on warfarin alone you would be putting at a serious risk of a DVT or a pulmonary embolism. I think the best solution to this problem is to develop safer and more effective drugs, and that is exactly what is happening.

I have never believed in the germ theory, let alone the superstition of herd immunity. Herd mentality is needed for that!

I have never understood how anyone can deny germ theory or herd immunity. There is so much evidence of many different kinds for both that anyone denying them must be either ignorant of that evidence or delusional. I can’t see any other explanation.

By simple logic, one can deduce that once the major causes of death decline (plagues, world wars, famine, etc) there will be an increase of more chronic conditions – conditions that existed all the time, but more (many more) people died long before those chronic conditions could manifest themselves.

i.e. – an individual may develop some form of cancer later in life, but dies of smallpox at the age of 10. Or, an individual may develop diabetes or dementia, but dies in a famine during his/her twenties.

To say that modern medicine (antibiotics, vaccines, and basic improvements in treatments, drugs, surgeries, etc) and overall improvements in quality of life haven’t had an overwhelming impact on the decline in mortality rates across the board (followed up with denial of herd immunity and germ theory – even insane troll only denies one of those) just shows how in the dark you (Emily) are regarding the reality.

“I have never believed in the germ theory”

Oh yuk. I just hope I never accidentally meet you without knowing who you are in advance. I really don’t want to shake hands with people who don’t wash after using the toilet facilities.

Though I suppose I should recognise you because noone in your family bothers to cover their faces when they sneeze or cough.

Yuukk!!

I wonder how people who deny the germ theory of disease explain epidemics.

How do they explain the Black Death that killed 1/3 of the population of Europe in the 1340s? It is amply documented — there is no question that it occurred and that most of the people who got sick had a specific suite of symptoms (there were about three specific suites of symptoms in all, but the bubonic form was by far the most common). The spread of the illness was suggestive of contagion even to people of the 1340s, long before the germ theory was imagined.

How do they explain the deaths of Native Americans with symptoms similar to those of Europeans with named diseases — deaths which occurred only after Europeans came to these continents and which spread in a way suggestive of contagion?

How do they explain the flu pandemic of 1918?

Emily, you are cordially invited to help me out here.

I was once asked to help some kids in high school with their science fair project, and I chose germ theory. I chose it because I had found out that one of the town councilmen did not believe in germ theory and he was going to judge the fair. So we were going to embarrass him.

We took two petri dishes, sterilized them one more time out of the bag with UV light, and left one open to the air and another one closed. The closed one grew nothing. The open one grew mold. We then took a third plate and grew beta-hemolytic strep. The student wrote up a paper about Pasteur and about Koch’s postulates. I was nearby when the judges came around.

One section in the poster board was dedicated to germ theory denialism. It asked those who doubted to take a look a the plate with beta-hemolytic strep. If they truly did not believe in germ theory, in the fact that germs grow out of something and cause disease, then they were welcome to take a lick of the strep plate.

There were no takers, and my student did not win. But, then again, he did. He learned that science opens eyes and makes minds think critically… And that bacteria do cause disease and do not come out of nowhere. He is now a medical technologist back in Texas, and I am very proud of him.

So, Emily, why does food spoil once you open the can, and would you eat it?

Of course, the elimination of rinderpest was also not due to vaccination, but due to “the improved social conditions” of East African cattle, which as we all know have been the beneficiaries of better sewage disposal, improved nutrition and the spread of early-calfhood education on the savanna.
Oh, and chiropractic, lots of chiropractic.

With regard to the PSA part of the discussion, I have to say I dissent from the current recommendations. At age 55, a routine PSA led to the discovery that I had prostate cancer, Gleason score 7, with disease right up to and on the verge of going through the prostate capsule. I was totally asymptomatic and there was no suspicious finding on digital rectal exam. After surgery, my 15-year risk of recurrence is 22%. I believe, and I think Orac will confirm, that had I waited until I had definite symptoms that couldn’t be waved off as due to something else, that I would have certainly had regional and most likely distant metastases requiring more, and more systemically disruptive, forms of therapy and my odds of cure and survival would have been seriously diminished, not to mention the impact on my quality of life.
I strongly dissent from the new recommendations. Men, get your PSA checked early and often.

@ Emily:

I’m rather surprised that you didn’t quote figures about iatrogenic death from “Death by Medicine”. Actually, you sound like the material I survey since 2000: pharmaceutical products and the medical establishment are chastised by people who have ridiculously inapropriate educational backgrounds as well as an axe to grind because they are in *direct* competition for business. To make this simple, I’ll focus on one aspect alone- anti-vaccination( since the post is about AJW):

Right now, some of the strongest advocacy against vaccination emanates from websites** who financially benefit from products that “eliminate” the need for vaccination ( well, at least they do in their perpetrators’ fevered imaginations); they sell supplements (vitamin D), herbs to “strengthen immunity”, as well as dietary regimes ( raw, vegan, what-have-you), juicing and other paraphenalia, and “informational services” ( books, lectures, consultations, films) that disseminate their ideas. Even if *you* don’t buy these products, thousands of others do: it’s big business.

People have opposed vaccination since Jenner- there is something frightening about injecting a foreign substance into people- alt med anti-vaxxers capitalise on this fear while encouraging mistrust of science-based medicine, doctors, and pharmaceutical companies. Simultaneously, they are creating their own brands: placing themselves on a pedastal inviting worship in an act of grandiose solipcism-afterall, you need be pretty grandiose if you believe you can critique an entire area of research and an industrial sector. Thus their systematic demolition of consensus views is feeding gigantic egos as well as stuffing their pocketbooks. Other websites that have a similar agenda promote emotionally- reinforcing views as well as creating careers and making money off of advertisements ( AgeofAutism; NVIC; NJCVC; EBCALA, SafeMinds;…) And yes, AJW had potential business opportunities in mind. Several.

Vaccination is an important *bete noire* for them: if their views are rejected then their entire *raison d’etre* will be questioned and their empire will dissolve into dust.

** NaturalNews; ProgressiveRadioNetwork; GaryNull; Mercola…

Chemmomo, well isn’t that funny because because a while ago, Chris referred to some “vacc VS unvacc studies from around 1980 (when there were very few mandatory vaccines on the schedule. Just pointing out the inconsistency in your thinking here.

Old Rockin’ Dave,
Re PSA I’d say you were lucky, in a sense. For every man like you there are two or three whose elevated PSA is due to BPH, or whose prostate cancer would never have grown enough to cause them any problems. They get a biopsy and possibly treatment that they didn’t really need at all, not to mention the anxiety and cost. Screening tests and their risks and benefits are a fascinating area, I think. Their effects on individuals and on large numbers of people can be very different, if you see what I mean.

Sick sauce,
There is a big difference between using data from 1980, and coming to a conclusion based only on data available in 1980 without the benefit of data that have become available since.

Is Wakefield better characterized as a Great Fraud or as The Great Pretender?

Oh-oh, yes I’m the great pretender
Pretending that vaccines make you unwell
My cash needs were such I pretended too much
Exposed so my colleagues could tell

(the original song lyrics actually fit nicely without any alterations)

I always get a kick out of insane troll advocating the slaughter of the infected & potentially infected as a means to control the spread of infections….

I still await my blog of 2 hours ago being published.

That’s not what “blog” means, O Seer of Truth.

@ Dangerous Bacon:

Exactly- and another ripe fruit for plucking – in the song parody dept-
it might almost work “as is” but oh wow, consider Mr Dylan’s refrain as:

“You might think that it’s very rude
but EVERYBODY must get sued…”

Fortunately, I have “paperwork” or I might have to look up the real lyrics and have a go at it. I hereby absolve my claim.

@ #15
You are aware that it is illegal to impersonate someone over the internet, aren’t you?

@ #17
It would appear as if Mr Deer is unfamiliar with the concept of “Correlation does not equal causation.” I believe the very first Harry Potter book came out in the previous year; perhaps that is the cause for lower vaccine uptake? But, since Mr Deer agrees with your confirmation bias, then it must mean that, in this case, Correlation DOES equal causation.

You cats and kittens are entirely too predictible. Really, pointing out your hypocrisies and bias has started to grow quite dull.

Man, there’s nothing like a germ theory denialist troll to brighten up your morning. I’m sorta wondering what she does think causes disease, though. Miasmas, maybe? Acid body environment? Vague, extremely generalized, “poor sanitation”? Not being as perfect and enlightened as her?

@ #61 Krebiozen and #69 trrll

I was kidding. Chris wanted Emily to explain how sanitation improvements and open windows reduced measles between 1960 and 1970, when there was a huge drop in recorded cases. Emily is wrong to state that changes in lifestyle and cleanliness were the reason, because, for one thing, by 1960 these changes had long been in place. So why the dramatic drop in measles infections in the US between 1960 and 1970? I was joking about Leave it to Beaver. That was a popular TV show that ran in syndication all through the 1960s. June Cleaver is often held up as the symbol of the perfect wife who kept an immaculate house. Me saying “I watched Leave it to Beaver and I didn’t get measles” was a joke meant to illustrate that correlation does not equal causation. Sorry. Lame joke.

In fact, Emily, the JAMA editorial, that you didn’t name, quote, or link to, must be referring to deaths in the United States which, as many of us are aware, is not the whole world.

In addition to what it was asserting, she also got wrong the year of publication and failed to note that it wasn’t an editorial. But, hey, whatever, citations are just a myth created to control people. It’s here.

I always get a kick out of insane troll advocating the slaughter of the infected & potentially infected as a means to control the spread of infections….

You’re an infection promoter. You don’t have to agree with Lancisi.

@129

You are aware that it is illegal to impersonate someone over the internet, aren’t you?

Oh shit you guys, watch out. He’s gonna call the internet police on us.

It would appear as if Mr Deer is unfamiliar with the concept of “Correlation does not equal causation.” I believe the very first Harry Potter book came out in the previous year; perhaps that is the cause for lower vaccine uptake? But, since Mr Deer agrees with your confirmation bias, then it must mean that, in this case, Correlation DOES equal causation.

So you’re saying that it is purely coincidence that, following the publication of a highly publicized paper about a supposed major side effect of the MMR vaccine, MMR vaccination rates went down.
You’re either incredibly intellectually dishonest, or incredibly stupid.

If I recall, insane troll was in complete support of Lancisi’s methods, since they didn’t involve vaccinations – again, freaking hilarious!

You’re an infection promoter. You don’t have to agree with Lancisi.

You really don’t understand how erbärmlich these attempts to do the same thing over and over with people who have already handily embarrassed you are, do you? Look, if you’ve only got one record, you could at least put on the other side once in a while. The whole “surfactants are always adjuvants” routine was a hoot. Try that.

If anyone is curious, I found the 1999 editorial article in JAMA that Emily was talking about (It’s actually from 2000):

JAMA. 2000 Jul 26;284(4):483-5.
Is US health really the best in the world?
Starfield B.

Oops, looks like Narad posted the article before I did, and I didn’t see it. And yes, it’s a commentary, not an editorial in the July 2000 edition of JAMA.

@OracIsAQuack:
are there other plausible reasons for a sudden drop in MMR vaccinations after the publication of the paper? Correlation can be useful in pinning down the cause of something in the absence of other credible explanations.

If I recall, insane troll was in complete support of Lancisi’s methods, since they didn’t involve vaccinations – again, freaking hilarious!

First.

1. Giovanni Maria Lancisi (26 October 1654-20 January 1720)
2. First rinderpest vaccine, 1897 by Robert Koch

Yeah you’re freaking hilarious!

Second, your utter ignorance of Lancisi’s methods is highly amusing.

Rinderpest and peste des petits ruminants: virus plagues of large and small ruminants, p.89
By William P. Taylor

Lancisi’s recommendations and their success were underpinned by two thrusts (see also Chapter 9):

– zoo-sanitary measures, including stamping-out
– strong legal enforcement of control measures

Thus Lancisi’s technical recommendations included: slaughter to reduce spread, restricted movement of cattle, burial of whole animals in lime, and inspection of meat. Their implementation was enforced rigorously by the papal edicts by which Draconian penalties, including even hanging of guilty laymen and condemning of clergy to the galleys, were enforced. This led to the first effective control of rinderpest within a country, the state then known as Romagna. The same measures were successfully applied to control an epidemic of rinderpest that invaded England in 1714 with cattle shipped from Netherlands. Their rigorous application was recommended and advocated by Thomas Bates, surgeon to King George I of England (Bates, 1718). Bates, having been stationed as a naval surgeon in Sicily, was familiar with the edicts of Lancisi. In addition to following Lancisi’s recommendations Bates also recommended the segregation of animals into small groups. Similarly enforced measures were successful in containing Rinderspest in France and Germany through orders of the French Royal Council in 1714 and by Friedrich Wilhelm I in 1716, both of which included movement control measures. In other parts of Europe where these measures were not applied with the same rigour, rinderpest elimination was not possible.

Bad news for infection promoters.

If I recall, insane troll was in complete support of Lancisi’s methods, since they didn’t involve vaccinations – again, freaking hilarious!

First.

1. Giovanni Maria Lancisi (26 October 1654-20 January 1720)
2. First rinderpest vaccine, 1897 by Robert Koch

Yeah you’re freaking hilarious!

Second, your utter ignorance of Lancisi’s methods is highly amusing.

Rinderpest and peste des petits ruminants: virus plagues of large and small ruminants, p.89
By William P. Taylor

Lancisi’s recommendations and their success were underpinned by two thrusts (see also Chapter 9):

– zoo-sanitary measures, including stamping-out
– strong legal enforcement of control measures

Thus Lancisi’s technical recommendations included: slaughter to reduce spread, restricted movement of cattle, burial of whole animals in lime, and inspection of meat. Their implementation was enforced rigorously by the papal edicts by which Draconian penalties, including even hanging of guilty laymen and condemning of clergy to the galleys, were enforced. This led to the first effective control of rinderpest within a country, the state then known as Romagna.

Bad news for infection promoters indeed.

LAB,

I was kidding.

It’s hard to tell when there are nuts of such a high caliber about!

OIAQ,

“Correlation does not equal causation.”

Correlation alone is not sufficient to suggest causation. In this case there is a plausible mechanism, no plausible alternative explanation and several previous examples of vaccine scares leading to a fall in vaccine uptake and an increase in cases of the disease it prevents. That constitutes good evidence for causation. You’re not very good at this, are you?

Thingy is actually advocating the slaughter of children to reduce spread of measles? Lost for words…

Emily:

I have never believed in the germ theory, let alone the superstition of herd immunity. Herd mentality is needed for that!

Then I am really interested in you answer to my question on why the numbers of people getting measles per year dropped so much in the USA in ten years. Do tell us.

SS:

Chemmomo, well isn’t that funny because because a while ago, Chris referred to some “vacc VS unvacc studies from around 1980

Pray tell, which one was it?

Krebiozen:

There is a big difference between using data from 1980, and coming to a conclusion based only on data available in 1980 without the benefit of data that have become available since.

If it is the measles vaccine study done in Africa then the point of that was to show what happens to the unvaccinated group (they got measles and some died). Because that was in the 1960s, I assume SS thought it was 1980s, since that is about the time the Belmont Report came out. That either shows how well SS can read, or his/her level of honesty.

I see OracIsAQuack is just posting random insults without any supporting evidence. What is his explanation for the drop of vaccine uptake, and then measles becoming endemic in the UK just a couple of years later?

@Emily-
Follow your “intuition” and run from Orac and his intellectual lynch mob and
witch hunters.
They call Dr. Sears and Gordon quacks, also Dr. Oz and Dr. Blaylock who have more skill in surgery than ORAC.
Their pyschological underpinnings are as fanatical as the “creationists” in their
belief of vaccines as the “Holy Communion”.
Knowing many people with few vaccinations and excellent health and all the reading I’ve done has convinced me that the current vaccine schedule for children has no real scientific support.

@146
Yes, people on the internet being snarky in a way you don’t agree with is totally comparable to lynching. Bloody hell.

Knowing many people with few vaccinations and excellent health and all the reading I’ve done has convinced me that the current vaccine schedule for children has no real scientific support.

Okay, I’ll bite. What exactly is your problem with the current vaccine schedule? What are the specific parts of it that you feel have “no real scientific support”?

@anna:
knowing many people without vaccination is not proof that vaccines do not work. Many will have been infected and survived or not shown symptoms. You don’t know the people that have died, as they are dead. Has anyone claimed that without vaccination we would all get sick, or die? People lived without vaccination long ago,but that does not indicate vaccines do not work.

Individual stories do not prove anything, you need a proper controlled study with ample statistics.

Thingy is actually advocating the slaughter* of children to reduce spread of measles? Lost for words…

*Only applies to the herd. So who’s saying children belong to the herd?

Now wonder you’re on the top of the list.

http://respectfulinsolence.com/2011/08/haunted_by_memories_of_the_consequences.php#comment-5173160

Continued p. 90-91…

The control measures adopted in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries comprised:

– Quarantine measures to segregate infected from uninfected herds
– Import restrictions
– Movement restrictions for animals and people
– Slaughter of all diseased and in contact animals
– Safe carcass disposal – especially deep burial in lime
– Prohibition of the sale of meat and milk from sick animals
– Compulsory notification of disease to the authorities
– Enabling legislation, enforcement and heavy penalties
for offenders.

Oh look no vaccine!

anna @146: “Dr. Oz and Dr. Blaylock who have more skill in surgery than ORAC.”

Evidence needed.

It is refreshing (and again, terrifying) to see insane troll advocate for the slaughter of infected individuals or suspected individuals as part of its toolbox for removing disease from a population.

Thanks for the heads-up on your thought process here – you’ve, once again, shown your true colors.

@You are really showing your ignorance by asking that question. Do the research
yourself. You will dispute anything I write anyway.

No No Lawrence, you don’t get it. She believes you are the infection promoter and thus responsible for countless deaths, while in her mind, slaughtering innocents to save the rest is heroic and moral. Really, my head just imploded…..

@anna:
Isn’t that a bit lazy? you are trying to make a point but refuse t give relevant proof, just accusations.

I think I see the problem, you would rather not have anything you say questioned, but only listened to and agreed to. Disputing something is healthy, not something bad … if something is found incorrect then try to understand what is wrong with your idea, modify it, or if you have to reject it. If something cannot be discussed or disputed is it really worth talking about?

anna:

You will dispute anything I write anyway.

Perhaps you could prevent that by being more clear, not plagiarizing other people, and actually providing some evidence.

By the way, Dr. Blaylock has been retired for many years, and sells a supplement. So, yes, you really do have to provide actual evidence.

It is refreshing (and again, terrifying) to see insane troll advocate for the slaughter of infected individuals animals or suspected individuals animals as part of its toolbox for removing disease from a population.

Ahh the herd mentality.

Continued p. 91

These measures remain valid today and now form the core of the stamping-out policy for the control of highly contagious animal diseases, also referred to as transboundary animal diseases, i.e. those that are of significant economic trade and/or food security importance for a considerable number of countries; which can easily spread to other countries and reach epidemic proportions; and where control/management, including exclusion, requires cooperation between several countries (FAO, 1996).

No No Lawrence, you don’t get it. She believes you are the infection promoter and thus responsible for countless deaths, while in her mind, slaughtering innocents to save the rest is heroic and moral. Really, my head just imploded…..

FTFY. Thank you.

You are really showing your ignorance by asking that question. Do the research yourself. You will dispute anything I write anyway.

I have done the research. I’ve gone to the CDC website. I’ve read the studies that they’ve based the vaccine schedule off of, and I’ve found their methods and conclusions satisfactory. You, clearly, did not. So again, I’m asking you, what parts of the vaccine schedule do you feel are unscientific?

Actually insane troll, you are the advocate of disease control without vaccinations – so by that thought process (if you actually have one), you are in favor of the methods used to originally attempt to control the spread of Rinderpest – so thank you again for admitting your whole-hearted support for the slaughter of innocent individuals, just because they might have come in contact with an infected host.

It is refreshing (and again, terrifying) to see you come out and state such a black and white opinion on the matter.

@Emily-
Follow your “intuition” and run from Orac and his intellectual lynch mob and
witch hunters.

Paging Minion Walter. NPD on line 2.

Anna,

Do the research yourself.

You should take your own advice. If you do your research properly you will find that Blaylock, to pick just one example, gets his facts wrong, distorts the truth, and misinterprets the evidence. A year ago I spent a lot of time and trouble looking closely at Blaylock’s writings on the Simpsonwood meeting and ended up utterly disgusted at Blaylock’s ignorance or dishonesty, it was hard to decide which it was.

Actually insane troll, you are the advocate of disease control without vaccinations

Rinderpest had been eradicated more than once without vaccination. What are you complaining about?

so by that thought process (if you actually have one), you are in favor of the methods used to originally attempt to control the spread of Rinderpest

>

Read #156 re: FAO, moron! (apology to the cattle)

so thank you again for admitting your whole-hearted support for the slaughter of innocent individuals, infected animals, just because they might have come in contact with an infected host.

I don’t know but did Lancisi slaughter innocent individuals?

I say mooooo!!!

anna: “Orac and his intellectual lynch mob….
Their pyschological underpinnings are as fanatical as the “creationists” in their belief of vaccines as the “Holy Communion”.

anna, I am puzzled by your equating Orac and posters here with Catholics. Why do you hate Catholicism?

Germs exist & play an associative role in many illnesses, but they do not represent THE cause. They need a lot of help from us. If antibiotics are essential, how is it that my 4 kids, myself, my husband & many of my colleagues have NEVER taken antibibiotics, or any drugs, for over 20 years? Have my kids been sick? Of course, but they have been educated to know the power of their body’s self healing capacity, IF they provide the right conditions.

And those conditions do not mean herbal pills, homeopathy, vitamins, antibiotics, anti-emetics, anti-pyrretics, tamiflu or any other voodoo!

Let me bring you up to speed on a little secret! But please don’t say this aloud as it might cause hysteria amongst the medical sycophants: the human body is self-developing, self repairing & self-defending! Wow! My kids have been taught that. Does it mean they (we) reject modern medicine outright? How churlish that would be, & stupid. Modern medicine is awesome in some areas, but in most areas in engages, it is unnecessary & harmful.

How does someone with RA, on methotrexate for 19 years, make a remarkable recovery when she comes OFF ALL medication, AND doesn’t take any “alternative” supplements, as advocated by the Mercolas, Sears, etc? How could that be? Are any of you really intersted in the truth? Do any of you good people suffer yourselves with chronic disease that modern medicine is virtually useless (read dangerous) in treating? What about family members? If you are in that position, ask me to explain!! I sell NOTHING, no pills, no concoctions, no remedies- THERE IS NO PROFIT!!! Hello, is anybody out there with an inquirng mind for the truth?

Rinderpest had been eradicated more than once without vaccination.

Hey, is that a fresh word with a novel intrapsychic meaning?

Intellectual lynch mob? Weren’t they a band in the UK c.1978?

The relationship between the alt med proselytiser ( usually male) and his target audience (mostly female) can best be approached by metaphor: he is well-spoken and knows what makes her “tick”- he details how she has been sorely mis-used by her current beau ( read mainstream medicine) which is truly unjust because she is indeed a fine person far above average, intelligent, loving, and worthy. She deserves better- someone like him, a true genius also unfairly punished by heartless corruption. It’s a match made in heaven!

His flattery and attentions are designed to convince her that what benefits *him* is really in her best interest, not his. In this dance of financial and ideological seduction she is controlled although she doesn’t realise it- symbiotically, both egos getfed- he adds another to his stable while she is “choosen” by the glorious one himself.

Krebiozen @122 :

You forgot to include the not insignificant morbidity and mortality associated with investigation of “elevated” PSAs that are later found to be normal for that individual!

“You are really showing your ignorance by asking that question. Do the research
yourself. You will dispute anything I write anyway.”

Asking a question is requesting that one’s ignorance be reduced. Refusing to answer a question is an obvious attempt to hide one’s ignorance. Hope that helps.

Oops… pardon my premature hit…

So here goes:
“symbiotically, both egos get fed- he adds another to his stable while she is chosen by the glorious one himself”.

I am not speaking literally -I’m not saying that these fellows “get it on” with their clients- it’s an *analogy* -and apropo- because there *is* a romance going on. Seducers- or salesmen- with good verbal skills and person perception make use of their own studied skills at charming people- whether it’s by looks, speech, or feigned empathy- for their own advantage. And *both* parties are getting something out of it or else it wouldn’t last very long. ( Also it is not 100% male to 100% female)

Many people have these skills but choose *not* to use them because they know how really unfair their advantage is.

@Denice-
You really are enamored with your verbal abilities. I actually adored my SBM
orthopedist when I tore my rotator cuff. Maybe surgeons should just stick to doing what they were qualifed to do as SBM doctors. I am very open-minded- ie usually correlated with “creative thinkers”.
I think I have enough psych savy to recognonize “transference” reactions.
No- people turn to alt med because they get no answers from SBM- they really just
might want to feel better.
Of course there are rip-off artists in alt med-like Medicare and Medicaid abuses don’t exist?

@Thingy, #149:
You obviously don’t know the difference between Italy and East Africa. In the last epidemic areas, herding is synonymous with subsistence; there are no truly realistic alternatives. Lancisi’s measures did not go over very well in most of Europe, where conditions were not as stark; I seriously doubt they could ever have flown in Somalia, Sudan or northern Kenya in our era, even assuming there were effective central governments with the resources and the will to enforce them.
@krebiozen, #122: Hoping not to sound too sarcastic,I am sure that if I were undergoing debulking surgery, multiple sessions of irradiation to the pelvic region,and skeletal metastases, and lifelong androgen-blocking therapy, or perhaps dying of untreatable metastatic disease, I would be comforted by the thought that I was contributing to the fiscal health of society.
If you are a man past your mid-40s, get your PSA done.

@Denice-
Are you sure you are not “projecting”?
That might be your “modus operandi”.

Emily @167: “If antibiotics are essential…”

Who ever said they were? Thousands of generations of human beings were born and lived to adulthood without antibiotics.

Of course, in each of those generations there were people who got infections that antibiotics could have cured, but antibiotics didn’t exist so they died.

It’s great that you and your family haven’t needed antibiotics. Let’s hope you remain that fortunate. But for those like me who haven’t been so fortunate, it’s good that antibiotics exist whether you like them or not.

You really are enamored with your verbal abilities.

I’m enamoured with Denice’s verbal abilities, so what?

I actually adored my SBM orthopedist when I tore my rotator cuff.

Oh and why is that? Is it because you were aware that you were out of your depth about how to repair your own rotator cuff? You see that’s the problem with you self-proclaimed “open-minded” types, your brains fall out while you are frantically acquiring your Google U degrees with alt-med morons as instructors so you think you can DIY medicine.

Maybe surgeons should just stick to doing what they were qualifed to do as SBM doctors.

Yes they should so you mind telling me why you invoked Dr. Oz as some kind of authority? Or Dr. Sears and Gordon since they haven’t done a single bit of research? Or Blaylock a retired surgeon who shills supplements? By the way, our host is a PhD/MD who conducts research as well as surgery and practises what he preaches, i.e. science-based medicine. How do your “experts” measure up in this regard?

I am very open-minded- ie usually correlated with “creative thinkers”. I think I have enough psych savy to recognonize “transference” reactions.

Of course you are “open-minded”, you’d have to have had your brains flop out to believe the swill you believe and in turn are peddling. I don’t think you really know what “open-minded” is or you wouldn’t be embarrassing yourself by proclaiming to be. I would also suggest you learn what confirmation bias is and repetition confirmation because I don’t think you are particularly self-aware as far as those go.

No- people turn to alt med because they get no answers from SBM- they really just might want to feel better.

And how does one achieve that?

Of course there are rip-off artists in alt med-like Medicare and Medicaid abuses don’t exist?

A silly Tu quoque argument. There is oversight in medicine so that scammers do get caught and punished. There is little to no oversight for your altie snake-oil salesmen and can literally get away with murder, in large part because people like you who get sucked into their world are too embarrassed to do anything about them when you realise you’ve been had; you just slink away.

Sicksauce @120 and 121: Apparently, you did notice that my handle is Chemmomo. Therefore, I’m not Chris. Exactly what is inconsistent here?

Stuartg,

You forgot to include the not insignificant morbidity and mortality associated with investigation of “elevated” PSAs that are later found to be normal for that individual!

True. You remind me of an old colleague of mine who years ago had his creatine kinase level measured to establish a reference range – lab staff are often used for this. His CK was markedly elevated and he endured a series of investigations, including a muscle biopsy, to try to find the cause. In the end it was realized that people of African origin, he is Nigerian, simply have higher CK levels than Caucasians or Asians, and his CK was perfectly normal.

Emily, sweetie, @92

then let’s travel to 1999

I said welcome to the 21st century. You’re still off by one (or two, depending on who’s counting) year(s).

I have never believed in the germ theory, let alone the superstition of herd immunity.

Please read this article http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2011/07/21/peds.2010-3385.full.pdf
and try to figure out why there were no deaths from chicken pox in infants who were too young to have received their own vaccines.

Finally,

The majority is often wrong. And yes, there is one born every minute

Yeah, Emily, you’re right about that. What you fail to realize is that it’s you. I can’t help but feel sorry for you seeing conspiracies everywhere and not having enough of an open mind to understand science.

Finally, Emily, you complain

Dear Moderator,
I still await my blog of 2 hours ago being published. What is the hold-up?

at 3:04 am! I assume you’re on the west coast of the US. Did it occur to you that the moderator might not be?

Old Rockin’ Dave,

I am sure that if I were undergoing debulking surgery, multiple sessions of irradiation to the pelvic region,and skeletal metastases, and lifelong androgen-blocking therapy, or perhaps dying of untreatable metastatic disease, I would be comforted by the thought that I was contributing to the fiscal health of society.

It’s not just fiscal health. What about the many men who have unnecessary investigations and treatment, both of which carry risks, as a result of an elevated PSA? It may be that routine screening with PSA actually increases morbidity and mortality overall. For you, getting a PSA was undoubtedly the right thing and may have saved your life, for many other men it makes things worse.
http://www.uspreventiveservicestaskforce.org/uspstf12/prostate/prostateart.htm

@Science Mom-
You are very young and don’t have any experience outside of your narrow
world.
Rather histrionic claim about snake oil salesmen getting away with murder-
Please cite other than Dr Burz.
What swill do I believe in or are you a mind reader too?
Sorry, I will never be had by SBM or Alt Med.
Oops! I was! believed everything was gospel in SBM and had a totally unnecessary
operation.
Age does bring wisdom some times.

@Science Mom-
What about breast implants, face lifts, botox, etc. of course these are done for purely
altruistic reasons.

@anna – before the AMA & the institution of medical standards, “snake oil” salesmen were an every day occurance – if you knew your history, you’d know that.

Lawrence:

if you knew your history, you’d know that.

She is having trouble with forming with sentence structure, forming an argument, using actual evidence, making herself clear, and worse as told Science Mom that she is naive and to not cite someone never mentioned by Science Mom: why should we assume she knows any history?

I think we are dealing with a runner up to Thingy.

@ Science Mom:

I appreciate your kind words! ( -btw- you should hear me with 2 drinks!)

I am trying to utilise my skills to expose nonsense that masquerades as medicine. I have witnessed horrible examples of those who are ill consulting with a charlatan whose admonitions include casting off SB therapies for cancer, HIV/AIDS, SMI, and other manageable conditions in order to sell supplements and media while mis-representing prevarication as education.

Because of my own good fortune- a kick -ss international elitist education- I try to provide a few short-cuts. Life can be unfair and people mis-use others. It’s my chosen lot to illustrate how it’s done in all the gory details.

@Denice-
I am glad that I have not “witnessed horrible examples of those who are ill consulting
with a charlatan” etc. I commend you on your “utilising” your skill to educate those
who do so.

@ Anna

Yes you should be glad you didn’t witness how much my cancer-ridden Grandfather suffered in his last days. Once he received his diagnosis of prostate cancer he opted to be treated by my homeopath aunt, to his demise. I saw him for the last time the day before he died, at my aunt’s house. He was in agony (despite the homeopathic remedies he was on – strange that), couldn’t speak and couldn’t drink either. All he could do was gesture at ice cubes to suck on. His untimely death most likely could have been prevented with early conventional medical treatment. His untimely death also sowed the first seeds of doubt in my then very altie/credulous mind (or as you would say “open mind”).

@Chris-
I quote you @184-“she is having trouble with forming with sentence structure”
Hmm…..
I quote “Science [email protected] “There is little to no oversight for your altie snake-oil salesmen and can literally get away with murder, in large part because people like you who get sucked into their world are too embarrassed to do anything about them when you realise you’ve been had; you just slink away.”
Asked for citations- Who is getting away with murder?
What does this have to do with history?
People like me? Rather arrogant statement.

Emily,
One simple question. Before Europeans arrived in the New World, Native Americans lived a natural existence and ate nothing but healthy unprocessed foods, breathed clean air and drank unpolluted water. Why did they succumb to infectious diseases like measles and smallpox in such large numbers when they came into contact with Europeans?

You are very young and don’t have any experience outside of your narrow
world.

Except that I do; my degrees and professional experience (in infectious diseases) weren’t acquired from Google and talk-show doctors.

Rather histrionic claim about snake oil salesmen getting away with murder-
Please cite other than Dr Burz.

I don’t know what was so histrionic about it, just a mere observation. It shouldn’t make you so uncomfortable, or should it? Here are just a few well-known example of woo killing people and the practitioners getting away with it, including your own Dr. Jay:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-impending-end-of-a-horrifying-testimonial-for-an-alternative-medicine-breast-cancer-cure/
http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2009/05/hbot-fire-certifications-in-the-clinic/
http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2007/07/dan-doctor-roy-kerry-chelation-charges/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Maggiore

What swill do I believe in or are you a mind reader too?

Don’t need to read your mind; you made the mistake of typing out your idiotic beliefs and proclamation of being so “open-minded”.

Sorry, I will never be had by SBM or Alt Med.
Oops! I was! believed everything was gospel in SBM and had a totally unnecessary
operation.

Except for when you do need a real physician. Yea, you aren’t that unique there you know.

Age does bring wisdom some times.

And it also brings dementia; anna I’m looking at you.

What about breast implants, face lifts, botox, etc. of course these are done for purely
altruistic reasons.

Can you please stick to you previous claims before moving on to exposing even more of your stupidity? But since you raise the point. Do you know what medical uses are for botox? If you had a mastectomy, would you be thankful for re-constructive surgery? Disfigured in an auto accident? Would you eschew rhinoplasty and other re-constructive surgery? Just because there is a purely cosmetic market for these things, doesn’t mean that they aren’t valuable modalities.

@Hinterlander– but I watched my friend die from lung cancer after 5 horrible
years on and off chemo with the end stage being a colostomy from the ravages of chemo.
Cancer is horrid.

I appreciate your kind words! ( -btw- you should hear me with 2 drinks!)

You are an acquired taste but once done, then it’s easy to see the experience, thoughtfulness and wit in your posts. I would definitely like to hear you with two drinks!

Yes anna – it is horrible, but due to dedicated researchers like the author of this blog, new and more effective treatments are being made available all the time.

Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the various alt-woo peddlers out there, who push nothing more than false hope.

Anna – I’m sorry to read about your friend. However, you miss my point. I was replying to your sarcastic comment #186 with “a horrible example of someone who was ill consulting with a charlatan”. Cancer is indeed horrid but in many cases treatable or curable if caught early and treated conventionally. As Lawrence states above cancer treatments are improving, moving ahead all the time, unlike alt “medicine” which simply spins round in circles spouting the same cr*p.

Let me bring you up to speed on a little secret! But please don’t say this aloud as it might cause hysteria amongst the medical sycophants: the human body is self-developing, self repairing & self-defending!

Ah, yes. Smoke and mirrors. Say a truism and then expect the fools to follow you.

Yes, the human body is self-developing. Yes, the human body is self-repairing. And, yes, the human body is self-defending.

In most cases. Then something like smallpox or cancer or a bullet shows up, writes down that “little secret” on a napkin, rolls it up, and shoves it up your ass.

Reuben wrote a blog post about how anti-vaxers (and Thingy) use the whole “polio vaccines cause polio” truism to scare you, if you’re dumb enough to believe them… http://bit.ly/zqIcWV

By my count, Andy Wakefield has been on three “top science fraud” lists in the past month: Medscape, CNN and now Time. He must be so proud of his achievements!

It’s getting harder and harder for the “true believers” to keep their faith in Wakefield, which I suspect is why he’s resorted to filing a lawsuit that hasn’t got a snowball’s chance in Hell (or Texas, for that matter). He needs to rally the faithful and convince them that he’s not irrelevant.

Unfortunately, even the mass media have decided that he is irrelevant – or, even worse, ridiculous. I predict that Wakefield will be getting more and more of his “media attention” on low-wattage late-night conspiracy-theory AM radio station talk shows in the coming years.

Prometheus

@krebiozen, #181:
The problem with statistical approaches is that a statistic is not a person.
For me, the attack rate was 100%. The prevalence was 100%. If I had died from prostate cancer the mortality rate would have been 100%. My ongoing risk of death from recurrence is only 1%, but it is not just 1% of me, a couple of toes maybe, that would die. I am the only me that I will ever have, and my wife, kids, and I all firmly believe that it is worth a little extra expense on the part of the health insurance industry to keep me, and you too, alive and well.

Who was that “nut” who discovered the benzene ring?

You’re devolving into non sequiturs? Do tell when Kekulé was considered to be a “nut.”

@narad-
You are absolutely right-
Sorry-thinking about the snake image- Freudian perhaps.

Narad,I guess I am not the only person confused by that comment. I thought perhaps I had missed something when reading through the previous comments but I did not see anything that seemed to make this comment relevant.

Nothing I have read about Kekulé would suggest to me that anyone considered him a nut during his life or after. I would love to know why this was brought up.

… Ah, the often-cited dream vision of Urobouros- the tail-eating serpent- and the structure of the benzene ring ( Jung loved it!) vs more realistic cognitive psych explanation of how long-term study+ a restful incubation period= discovery…not magic at all. I can’t do any more today.

Hey anna,
Not much you’ve posted today (on this or any other thread) has made much sense. And now you’re willing to wave the white flag of “English is my second language.” Well, guess what? Mine too.

Then you throw out Kekule, and benzene rings.

Oh wait, if English is my second language, then chemistry is my third. Or maybe higher, if we count my high school French, and Latin.

So, since you think you know all about Kekule, tell me: who is Erich Huckel? And I’ll add a hint: what does he have to do with benzene rings?

Ren

Yes, the human body is self-developing. Yes, the human body is self-repairing. And, yes, the human body is self-defending.

And of course each of these can go awry and kill us.

Krebiozen

One simple question. Before Europeans arrived in the New World, Native Americans lived a natural existence and ate nothing but healthy unprocessed foods, breathed clean air and drank unpolluted water. Why did they succumb to infectious diseases like measles and smallpox in such large numbers when they came into contact with Europeans?

In fact, at least in the northeast, the life expectancy of pre-contact Native Americans was a couple of years longer than that of Europeans.

I wonder if part of Emily raising her children as naturaly as possible includes teaching them how to hunt with neolithic weapons, butcher their kill or carrion and gather edible plants in the woods. After all, agriculture is so unnatural.

@Emily

Ren answered your naive statement in quite an amusing manner. 🙂

I’d like to take a slightly different approach:

Yes, the human body can heal itself. In fact, many of the specific mechanisms involved are well known to SBM and research is on to learn more about other mechanisms.

Quite clearly you are not aware of how SBM works. When the mechanism for self-repair/defence has failed, medical intervention is required to either boost it or supplement it (e.g antibiotics).

In many cases, repair may no longer be possible. Here again, medical intervention is required (hint: organ transplants).

Sometimes, an over zealous defence mechanism itself can lead to diseases (auto-immunity) which has to be controlled.

Similarly, most diseases occur precisely because of inadequacy of the body to deal with the derangement in one or many systems or specific locations in the body.

The human body is not perfect and its capacity for self healing/repair/defence can only go so far. When it has reached its limitations, intervention is required.

Ofcourse, even these interventions are not perfect, but practitioners of SBM actually put in the effort to make them as near perfect as possible.

You and your family are fortunate that you have so far been free of serious ailments. If you are free from ailments, you do not need any sort of intervention.

But everyone is not so fortunate and it is also not necessary that you will remain fortunate forever (not that I wish ill-fortune on you or your family). Diseases occur despite doing your best to maintain optimum health.

What do you believe a person should do when they fall ill despite taking all measures to maintain optimum health? Should they follow unproven, implausible claims for treatment where risks and benefits are largely unknown; or should they follow well-researched, reasonably well-understood (or atleast, proven) treatment modalities?

This discussion has specifically turned to the role of vaccines in the prevention of infectious diseases. However, it is folly to assume that SBM advocates against or does not advocate a healthy diet, exercise, good sleep etc for maintenence of optimum health.

SBM very much emphasizes the importance of these factors. However, for an effective disease prevention strategy, these are not enough. Some specific prevention strategies, such as vaccination, have to be included. As has been pointed above, effective prevention of a disease such as measles is not possible without effective immunization.

A lot of research has been done on this which the regulars always generously link to. If you really are open minded, as you claim to be, perhaps you should take a look at it and see for yourself. I’m afraid, you will have to invest some time and effort, though. A cursory glance is not enough.

@Militant Agnostic:
Even neolithic weapons are so unnatural. The natural way is to literally fight “tooth and nail” with the prey.

To Ren & Krebiozen,Yes, the human body is self-developing. Yes, the human body is self-repairing. And, yes, the human body is self-defending.

And of course each of these can go awry and kill us.

What does that mean? What are you talking about here?

And secondly, the Native American Indians did not die a day after meeting whites. It was after their lifestyles had been compromised that they fell ill.

If germs cause disease why are not my 4 kids sick with flu & other illnesses that their friends have? They associate with them all the time? And my kids are not “protected” by medicine’s voodoo vaccines. Why do so many people who get the flu every year (with or without fluvax), once they change their diets & lifestyles, NEVER get the flu again? I suppose the virus takes pity on them & leaves them alone as a reward for long service?

Maggots don’t cause the carcass & flies don’t cause the garbage & germs don’t cause the disease, they FOLLOW it.

And by the way, the human body has about 100 trillion cells & 10 times as many microorganisms ( viruses, bacteria etc) residing in/on it. God help us if germs are the cause of disease.We would never be well.

The only real science in modern medicine are the basic sciences- anatomy, physiology etc. The day to day practice of MOST of modern medicine is what I disagree with. why would I disagree with that? I was brought up to believe in medical magic. I make no money from selling ” remedies”. Then why? Simply put, because I have seen literally thousands of cases of people who have been suffering from A) their disease & b) their medical treatment of their disease.

In so many of these cases, all that was needed was for the patient to be educated to remove the causes. There are literally overwhelming numbers of poor wrethces suffering needlessly, dosed to their eyeballs on suppressive medication, being led by clueless physicians who have not the slightest idea of the biological law of cause & effect.But you really can’t blame them- they are products of their training, largely funded by GSK, Merck etc & they honestly have not been well trained in helping people potentiate their innate healing powrers (WOOO I hear the chorus!)
There was a salutary silence when I asked if anyone was interested in how a patient on methotrexate for 19 years can go off the drug, take NOTHING meically or alternatively, & RECOVER? Or a peatient with MS getting off interferon injections after 6 years (every second day, self-administered) to almost fully recover without ANY therapy.

And by the way, I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am not opposed medicine per se. I am not sitting on one side condemming the other. I sit on the outside condemming both, because most of modern medicine (save for emergency treatments) & most alternative therapies are unscientific & unnecessary, the former being often deadly (NEJM 2000, exact edition previously cited).

To LW Post 176: I am sorry you needed antibiotics. Would you mind telling us what you had that needed antibiotics? I would be very interested to find out.

@Emily:

Native American Indians did not die a day after meeting whites. It was after their lifestyles had been compromised that they fell ill.

Compromised how? I’ll think you’ll find that the outbreaks started long before the Native Americans were “westernised”.

Why do so many people who get the flu every year (with or without fluvax), once they change their diets & lifestyles, NEVER get the flu again?

Anecdotes are not evidence. I get vaxxed against flu, and one year when I wasn’t, I had the worst bout of flu I’ve ever had.

Maggots don’t cause the carcass & flies don’t cause the garbage & germs don’t cause the disease, they FOLLOW it.

Ah yes, the old “terrain of the body” argument. Please explain to me why, in 1650, when everyone ate organic etc, your odds of living to 18 were only 1 in 3, and why your odds are so much better today.

the human body has about 100 trillion cells & 10 times as many microorganisms ( viruses, bacteria etc) residing in/on it. God help us if germs are the cause of disease.We would never be well.

There are these thing called “skin”, “adenoids” and “tonsils” that stop those germs getting into where they can do harm (most of the time). If they get through (e.g. through a cut in the skin), we have this thing called an “immune system” that is supposed to kill them before they harm us.

Yes, the human body is self-developing. Yes, the human body is self-repairing. And, yes, the human body is self-defending.

And of course each of these can go awry and kill us.

What does that mean? What are you talking about here?

Ever hear of autoimmune diseases like Lupus? Toni Braxton had to be taken to hospital a few days ago because she has Lupus. As for self-developing and self-repairing going wrong, ever hear of cancer?
I don’t think I’ll convince you that you’re spouting garbage, given that you deny Germ Theory, but at least the Lurkers will know you are.

@Emily:

But you really can’t blame them- they are products of their training, largely funded by GSK, Merck etc & they honestly have not been well trained in helping people potentiate their innate healing powrers (WOOO I hear the chorus!)

I’m curious, then, as to who mis-trained the people who lead to the spread of smallpox vaccine way back when Jenner introduced it, and to the spread of the germ theory back when Pasteur came up with it, given since I don’t think that anything like Big Pharma existed back then.

@ Julian Frost re 217

Compromised how? I’ll think you’ll find that the outbreaks started long before the Native Americans were “westernised”.

The illnesses commenced well after contact, you’ll find. At least it was with the Australian Aborigines & New Zealand Maoris & Fijians, I haven’t been up to speed on the Native Americans, but I’m sure it would be the same.

Ah yes, the old “terrain of the body” argument. Please explain to me why, in 1650, when everyone ate organic etc, your odds of living to 18 were only 1 in 3, and why your odds are so much better today.

Please do your homework. Ate organic? Their diets were far from ideal, & their lifestyles were hazardous. The average age was so low because of high rates of infant mortalty. The along came Dr Semmeleiss in 1860 who helped change all that. The improvement in infant mortality was the reason we are living longer, on average, this is well accepted, & yes, medicine does play a role there.

There are these thing called “skin”, “adenoids” and “tonsils” that stop those germs getting into where they can do harm (most of the time). If they get through (e.g. through a cut in the skin), we have this thing called an “immune system” that is supposed to kill them before they harm us.

Yes, the human body is self-developing. Yes, the human body is self-repairing. And, yes, the human body is self-defending.

I am glad you agree with these basic biological axioms.

And of course each of these can go awry and kill us.

What does that mean? What are you talking about here?
Ever hear of autoimmune diseases like Lupus? Toni Braxton had to be taken to hospital a few days ago because she has Lupus. As for self-developing and self-repairing going wrong, ever hear of cancer?
I don’t think I’ll convince you that you’re spouting garbage, given that you deny Germ Theory, but at least the Lurkers will know you are

Please read the earlier posts where I wrote about the reasons people can recover from chronic disease (incl auto-immune disease) without medical or alternative treatments. Lupus is hopelessly treated medically, yet quite easily & successfully recovered from through the application of natural hygiene principles.

Cancer is a different story, although the medical treatment outcome of most cancers ( especially the main ones like bowel, breast, prostate, lung,etc) is appalling. President Nixon in 1971 declared “war on cancer” & if he saw the abysmal results of the “war”, he would turn in his grave. Even Professor Linus Pauling , dual Nobel Laureate, said “the cancer establishment is largely a fraud” & never have truer words been spoken.

Having said that, the mumbo jumbo of much alternative therapies in dealing with cancer is almost as bad.

Cancer is a special case & requires much more input, which I am unable to do at this time.

At least you do know that the body is self-regulating- well done Julian.

Emily @215: As a healthy active eight-year-old, I developed a severe infection in my hip. The infectious organism must have entered through some unnoticed scratch like all the others an active eight-year-old acquires. The infection quickly became so severe that I could not walk and my fever was so high that I was delirious.

Such infections just happen. They always have, in all of human history. In the good old days before antibiotics, I would have died. Thanks to antibiotics, I survived with just a slight limp.

Emily, now that I’ve answered your question, please allow me to ask one of my own. You said, “I have seen literally thousands of cases of people who have been suffering…”. What is it you do that enables you to see thousands of such people?

There was a salutary silence when I asked if anyone was interested in how a patient on methotrexate for 19 years can go off the drug, take NOTHING meically or alternatively, & RECOVER?

First of all, anecdote. Secondly, you haven’t given us sufficient data to evaluate what may have happened. But since you insist, I’ll engage in rank speculation. I speculate that what happened is that, since methotrexate is known for significantly increasing the odds of a durable remission in RA patients, the RA went into remission for an extended length of time and the remaining symptoms were merely side effects of the drug. Take away the drug, take away the side effects.

Or a peatient with MS getting off interferon injections after 6 years (every second day, self-administered) to almost fully recover without ANY therapy.

Let me guess. The sub-type of MS the patient had was relapsing-remitting, right? The remissions in this sub-type can last for years, during which the patient only suffers from the permanent damage inflicted during previous flare-ups (which often means almost full recovery).

And secondly, the Native American Indians did not die a day after meeting whites. It was after their lifestyles had been compromised that they fell ill.

Um, no. There was an epidemic among the Arawak after their first contact with Columbus, even though he only stopped there briefly, kidnapped a few people, and left. No major lifestyle changes.

Also just to note, the pre-Columbian lifestyle was in no way “pure”. Many Amerind peoples understood how to smoke meat, for example, few had what we would consider a truly balanced diet, and some, such as the Incas, had as complex and decadent a civilization as any spawned in Europe. What they didn’t have was small pox-until the Europeans showed up with it.

@Emily:

The only real science in modern medicine are the basic sciences- anatomy, physiology etc. The day to day practice of MOST of modern medicine is what I disagree with.

and

being led by clueless physicians who have not the slightest idea of the biological law of cause & effect.But you really can’t blame them- they are products of their training, largely funded by GSK, Merck etc

and yet

And by the way, I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am not opposed medicine per se.

I really tried hard not to laugh at this, but I just couldn’t help it.

Regarding the first two quotes:
you are very misinformed about modern medical science, I’m afraid. True, a lot of what involves clinical practice is not science because you often have to make decisions based on the patient’s wishes and there is the whole communication-with-the-patient bit, which is not entirely based on science.

In your list of scientific subjects taught in the medical curriculum, you missed biochemistry, pharmacology, pathology, microbiology, epidemiology. Clinical disciplines are nothing but application of concepts from these scientific subjects in the practical, clinical setting. I don’t see how you can call that “not science based”.

Basically, you disagree with something you have not even bothered to comprehend. Your off-the-cuff dismissal of modern medicine is not even logic based. I’ll tell you what is “not science based” – your denial of germ theory, your concept of “all diseases can be cured/prevented by a ‘healthy living'”.

And you definitely are a conspiracy theorist if you believe that medical education is funded by BigPharma. Don’t kid yourself.

True, many physicians choose to ignore science and evidence in order to serve vested interests (e.g. Dr. Andrew Wakefield), it does not mean that you brand everyone as corrupt.

Reuben wrote a blog post about how anti-vaxers (and Thingy) use the whole “polio vaccines cause polio” truism to scare you, if you’re dumb enough to believe them…

Which is why the vaccinators are the number one germ theory denialists.

Emily

And secondly, the Native American Indians did not die a day after meeting whites. It was after their lifestyles had been compromised that they fell ill.

You are displaying your total ignorance of germ theory and of history. It takes more than a day for infections to take hold and much longer for them to spread from one Native to the next. The native populations collapsed long before their lifestyles became “compromised”. When Cortez took the Aztec’s Capital City in Mexico with a handful of soldiers, the Aztec’s hadn’t changed their lifestyles one bit, but they had been weakened by a massive epidemic. The native population of Eastern Canada and New England collapsed soon after they began casual trading with European fisherman, long in advance of widespread European colonization. I hardly think trading their used underwear for a few metal knives, axes and the occasional bottle of rum “compromised their lifestyle” significantly. The conquest of New England and especially Canada was relatively peaceful because the First Nations had been devastated by disease. In fact when most of the colonists arrived re-wilding of the landscape had occurred as the wilderness took over the land formerly occupied by the Natives. The depopulation in the 16th, 17th and early 18th centuries took place well in advance of colonization and significant changes in the lifestyle of the Native North Americans.

Emily @218: please use either quote marks or blockquote to separate your words from what you’re quoting. It is confusing to read a comment in which you appear to be arguing with yourself.

Lupus is hopelessly treated medically, yet quite easily & successfully recovered from through the application of natural hygiene principles.

Well, that ought to be a relatively testable claim. I always like claims that a disease is “quite easily & successfully recovered from”. You have the PubMed cases, I presume?

Militant Agnostic wrote:

In fact, at least in the northeast, the life expectancy of pre-contact Native Americans was a couple of years longer than that of Europeans.

Which Europeans when?

I wonder if part of Emily raising her children as naturaly as possible includes teaching them how to hunt with neolithic weapons, butcher their kill or carrion and gather edible plants in the woods. After all, agriculture is so unnatural.

I suspect you mean palaeolithic weapons. Agriculture is usually taken to be the defining feature of the Neolithic.

T-reg is right tho – any sort of weapons are surely unnatural. Frankly, anything out of the water is decidedly suspect. And I’ll point out that unicells don’t get cancer – makes you think, doesn’t it? Maybe progress aint quite all what it’s made out to be.

@ Emily:

Although you may not *personally* subscribe to any of the alt med/ natural health advocates I survey, some of your ideas *sound* quite similar. Needless to say, these concepts have been around a long time: people are suspicious of physical intervention with their bodies and interference with their autonomy. Most alt med speaks to this ( possibly naturally-selected) fear; also ideas have filtred down over the past 150 years or so ( I know most about those in US and UK)- e.g. vegetarianism, the value of grains, anti-vaccination etc.

Right now there are several groups who promote diet and supplements as alternatives to medical care: the Alliance for Natural Health ( worldwide), the Natural Solutions Foundation, as well as promoters whose websites provide “information” as well as selling products ( cited above by me). They have vested interests in alienating trust in doctors and pharmaceuticals: both monetary and psychological- people without serious educations criticising entire professions and business sectors and developing a following- that’s an ego booster!

I have heard irresponsible advice given to people with serious conditions- including scaring folks off of most pharmaceutical products : chemotherapy for cancer, meds for mental illness, ARVs for HIV/AIDS, most vaccines, as well as drugs for heart disease, and antibiotics. Often their supporting “data” is a pastiche of unrelated studies, poorly done research, polemics, and out-dated resources. They present themselves as “experts” when commonly they do not have relevant training: more significantly they are not tested and monitored as doctors are- *yet* they prescribe treatment plans and may tell their followers to avoid all doctors but NDs ( HealthRanger.com). They also have a political agenda that opposes regulation.

Because their ideas are *not* supported by data they need rely on conspiracies to explain why their hypothesis- although it is “correct”- has never been accepted by the mainstream. Contemplate the magnitude of a conspiracy that would explain how AJW was “shafted”: it would have to encompass pharmaceutical companies, medical associations, media, and goverments in at least two countries *working together*. How likely is that?

If antibiotics are essential, how is it that my 4 kids, myself, my husband & many of my colleagues have NEVER taken antibibiotics, or any drugs, for over 20 years?

If resetting of broken bones is so essential as the medical establishment says it is, how is it that I’ve NEVER had to have a broken bone reset?

Also, Emily, you were asked a direct question about eating food out that had been spoiled from being left out in the open for too long. And you never answered it, which proves both your dishonesty and your inability to control your emotions.

Maggots don’t cause the carcass & flies don’t cause the garbage & germs don’t cause the disease, they FOLLOW it.

And by the way, the human body has about 100 trillion cells & 10 times as many microorganisms ( viruses, bacteria etc) residing in/on it. God help us if germs are the cause of disease.We would never be well.

I take it that Emily’s too busy being enlightened to have noted the obvious contradiction here.

I suspect Emily is a naturopath or similar alt-med practitioner. She claims that, “I have seen literally thousands of cases of people who have been suffering from A) their disease & b) their medical treatment of their disease.” She didn’t answer my question as to what she does to have seen so many. She doesn’t sound like a real doctor, and a non-practitioner is unlikely to see (or claim to see) that many people with those complaints.

Andreas Johannsen

Which Europeans when?

Probably British/French and at the same time. There were a lot of diseases in Europe like smallpox and bubonic plague that were not present in North America. I suspect European warfare was more deadly than that in New England and Eastern Canada as well.

Not to mention that in many cases the diseases brought by Europeans moved ahead of the Europeans and killed off entire civilisations (such as the Mississippi valley mound-building people) before the colonists even got there, let alone “changed their lifestyle.” Money quote: English explorers along the Atlantic Coast described coming upon villages wiped out by disease, with skeletons so thick on the ground they crunched under the white men’s feet.

Emily:

And secondly, the Native American Indians did not die a day after meeting whites. It was after their lifestyles had been compromised that they fell ill.

Pizarro and the Inca Empire have been mentioned, as has the east coast of North America (except the part where the Puritans actually used previously cultivated fields from a tribe that no longer existed).

Now let us see how she does with the other side of the continent. Emily what caused the Whitman massacre? Why did George Vancouver and Peter Puget see evidence on smallpox when they were the first Europeans to see the Puget Sound Native Americans?

And I am still waiting to find out with real evidence why the rate of measles in the USA in 1970 was only 10% of what it was in 1960. Surely, Emily, you have the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that explain it already?

emily: ” Professor Linus Pauling , dual Nobel Laureate, said “the cancer establishment is largely a fraud”
emily:
“but then intelligence & stupidity are not incompatible.”

You go, girl!

I’ll just mention that RA, MS and lupus are all illnesses with variable courses that are darlings of alternative health practitioners, as any period of remission can be attributed to whatever intervention has been used, and any exacerbation is a “healing crisis” or a “detox reaction”. I find it interesting that Emily’s “cures”, that presumably are dietary, are all of these illnesses.

The claim that someone had the flu every year until they did X or gave up Y is also interesting as recent studies found that only 5% of unvaccinated people got flu in any given season. That means that people get flu every 20 years, on average.

Militant Agnostic wrote:

Probably British/French and at the same time. There were a lot of diseases in Europe like smallpox and bubonic plague that were not present in North America. I suspect European warfare was more deadly than that in New England and Eastern Canada as well.

I was asking because if I understand correctly, there was a lot of variation between different times and regions in early modern Europe. The Swedish life expectancy, if memory serves, seems to have shot up by well more than a couple years during the 18th century, probably because of fewer wars and less frequent failed harvests. I’d expect something similar goes for England and France (not fewer wars perhaps in those cases, but definitely less fighting inside the country, as they both took to primarily fighting on other people’s land in the 18th, after both suffering civil wars in the 17th).

To T Reg @211:

Agree with some of your points, just that I intervene a lot less & a lot later. For your edification (& all out there at discussionland), please study the principles & practices of Natural Hygiene & in particular the fantastic benefits of water-only fasting.This allows such a great respite for the body: inflammatory cytokines are deactivated, white blood cells de-marginated & near miracles happen. That is how the people with RA, SLE & other chronic diseases were able to reverse most if not all their pathology, followed by an appropriate diet/lifestyle.
(www.healthpromoting.com www. fastingbydesign.com) Also read Dr Joel Fuhrman’s book Fasting & Eating for Health.

I can hear the chorus of disapproval already: Where are the studies? These people are quacks! If “real” doctors are not aware of it, it must be woo.

I also know it will never appeal because their is no money in sipping water when thirsty & leaning how powerful the human body is when given conducive conditions.

To Chris, my long suffering, ignored friend: I do not know everything (I’m not young enough for that!)& I do not know why the figures were as you said, & I haven’t had time to look more deeply into it.

If antibiotics are essential, how is it that my 4 kids, myself, my husband & many of my colleagues have NEVER taken antibibiotics, or any drugs, for over 20 years?

Can’t wait for DOD to decide there’s something in what Emily says, and order military surgeons to go back to treating wounds with boiling treacle.

I’d like to second Julian Frost- although about 85% of what I write is directly addressed to lurkers anyway ( yes, I’ve counted)

One problem with battling alt med misinformation is that the targetted audience may be under-educated ( through no fault of their own *most* times) because of lessened requirements in natural science while science and technology have expanded by leaps and bounds. Barely or spuriously educated “experts” “enlighten” them about intricacies of human physiology ( mostly fictitious) and “suppressed” “cures” for serious illnesses. It’s fitting that this long discussion should follow a post about AJW.

Interestingly enough, the UK was home to another fraud: a psychologist created data to illustrate the inheritability of intelligence which had social implications for educational funding- for if intelligence is largely fixed, why spend money assisting non-achievers? The direction of the fraud was towards long-standing prejudice and stereotyping just as AJW’s “data” fit long-standing, un-warranted fears about vaccines. Perhaps these frauds were tailored to specific, ready audiences.

There may be deep-seated reasons for our fears and prejudices that have had evolutionary significance: injection of foreign substances or ingestion of novel ones may have worked *against* us at one time in our history, just like fearing people who *don’t look exactly like us* might have been a selective advantage hundreds of millenia ago. Understanding science gives us insight into phenomena that affect us in every aspect of daily life- all life passes through our own cogitive lens and its distortions- like it or not.
Thanks for bearing with me on this long trek as I’ve tried to put inter-related but ephemeral concepts into words.

Emily:

o Chris, my long suffering, ignored friend: I do not know everything (I’m not young enough for that!)& I do not know why the figures were as you said, & I haven’t had time to look more deeply into it.

It is really quite a simple answer. You just have to look past the principals of “Natural Hygiene” and actually embrace real science, and read some history. Perhaps if you had learned some of the latter your ideas on the Native population of the American continents would be more accurate.

Do try harder. I provided you the census data, all you have to do is look in some real resources. There are also some very interesting books on history like Pox: An American History, Polio: an American Story, Inside the Outbreaks, The Ghost Map and The Great Influenza.

You might also try catching up on some basic biology, and acquaint yourself with the PubMed index. Your comments about Natural Hygiene would only work on Htrae (no one who denies germ theory would mention cytokines, or even care about leukocytes).

Though do try harder to find that answer, I am really curious what you will come up with. Because those who forget history are doomed to repeat it, we already had an echo between 1989 to 1991, and it looks like we will have another one soon.

Emily,

To Chris, my long suffering, ignored friend: I do not know everything (I’m not young enough for that!)& I do not know why the figures were as you said, & I haven’t had time to look more deeply into it.

Scroll up to comment #49 to see the numbers Chris posted. If you don’t believe her numbers, click the link (blue text) which will bring you to the sources of the numbers.

And then just think about it for a few minutes.

That’s all we’re asking: think about it.

(And, no, Sicksause, I’m still not Chris.)

Hey, my comment had no links and was not long! I really hate the moderation bot.

Emily, try harder to answer my question. It is a very simple answer, all you have to do is know a little history and some real science.

It is not the first time, and there are always interesting reasons for some to never ever attempt to type out the only answer. My favorite are the ones who try to use data from Wales and England, which last I looked were not part of the USA.

Though I should warn her that the census data is on a very large pdf file, and it is on one of several tables. Though tp be nice, here is that data plotted out.

Quoth Emily: I also know it will never appeal because their is no money in sipping water when thirsty
I dunno, those homeopaths seem to be onto something…

No interest out there in fasting & Natural Hygiene? Surely some of you are keen to learn the true biological principles of health & disease.

If these principles were practiced, then 90% of both modern medicine & alt/med practitioners would be on the hunt for another line of income!

Give the body a chance!!! Why is medicine so bloody militaristic? Almost every deviation from normal physiology is suppressed. Anti-pyrretics, anti-biotics, anti-virals, anti hypertensives,anti-resorptives, anti -acids anti this, anti that. The war metaphor is apt. No wonder people have lost faith in the power of their own bodies, because the medical fraternity have never learnt it. Nutrition is not even taught to any great level in med school. My God!! Fasting is not even mentioned. And still we have tosillectomies, appendecectomies, cholecystectomies,hysterectomies, thyroidectomies, the vast majority of which could be avoided (not all!).

It is little wonder that people turn to alternatives. They are speaking with their feet & their money.However, there are some medics who come upon more efficacious methods of restoring health, but they have to learn them outside medical school. I refer to Drs Jonn McDougall, Joel Fuhrman, Dean Ornish, Peter Sultana, Caldwell Esselstyn, Michael Klaper, Michael Stern, Alexander Fine, Theo Coumentakis amongst others. Seek them out, you’ll be far better off than the just seeing the average grass-roots doctor or specialist who knows very little about nutrition, fasting & the true causes of health & disease.

Emily, you need to review your understanding of basic biology. Antivirals kill viruses & antibiotics kill bacteria, both in contexts where these microbes would quite possibly kill us. Neither viruses nor bacteria are part of our “normal physiology” (although they may be part of our normal commensal community).

Emily, why did the rate of measles incidence plummet 90% between 1960 and 1970 in the USA? Please provide adequate documentation for your answer from PubMed indexed papers.

@Flip: thank you. 🙂

@Emily:

My sincere request to you is to acquaint yourself with what you wish to talk about before actually talking about it. I don’t understand what makes you think that nutrition is not taught in med school. Just because practitioners of SBM do not agree with your notions of diet and fasting, it does not mean that they are not taught about nutrition during the course of their training or that they don’t know anything about it either. It is quite the other way round.

Regarding the effects of fasting – the metabolic and physiological consequences of fasting are well studied in biochemistry and physiology (the subjects which you consider as the only science taught in med school).

Another misconception – “physicians would not use ‘natural’ remedies because it does not hold any profit for them.”

Care to explain why physicians recommend a healthy diet, weight control and exercise for prevention of Type II Diabetes Mellitus? After all, if the patient develops DM, regular visits to the physician would be more profitable to the physician. Also, ophthalmological and surgical complications would allow other doctors to earn some money as well.

The aforementioned advice is also used as the first line management of impaired glucose tolerance (i.e. pre-diabetes), instead of drugs.

Drugs and surgery are taken as the last options in the management of obesity.

Control of salt intake is advised in patients with Hypertension or Cardiac failure.

Control of protein intake is advised in patients with renal disease.

Coeliac disease is managed with a gluten free diet.

Adequate fluid intake and ORS (even if a crude home made replacement) are the only treatment routinely advised for most cases of diarrhea.

Most viral infections are treated with the advice of adequate rest and plenty of fluids. The advice for anti-pyretic use (as has been pointed above) is only used to make the patient comfortable OR to bring down the fever if it goes too high.

All the public health warnings regarding smoking, are made with the aim of preventing lung cancer, TAO, emphysema and chronic bronchitis. Don’t you think doctors would earn more by treating these illnesses rather than preventing them by promoting a healthy life-style?

Also, about fasting – I come from a culture where there are all sorts of fasts. Water only fast? Yup, seen that. No water, either, fast? Yup, seen that too. Eating a small meal once a day fast? No cereals or alternate diet? ‘Eating 2 small meals before sunset and no more’ fast? Eating an hour after sunrise? Eating 3 hours after sunrise? Alternate days of fasting without water for a whole year? Yup, seen all of these. Most practitioners are my relatives and they continue to suffer from their illnesses (DM, RA, HTN, OA, ILD). Again, this is just anecdotal and not really conclusive evidence, but there you have it.

And please, let’s not go into the semantics of “anti this or anti that”. Why should it matter what we call the drug? If you don’t like anti-hypertensive, we’ll call it ‘blood pressure reducer’. Will that be ok with you? Will it effect how it works or its efficacy (outside of the placebo effect)?

What you are talking about, are notions which you have developed sitting and dreaming on an armchair with a head full of misinformation and misconceptions. The fundamentals of medical science, on the other hand, have been concluded over a hundred years by people who have actually done experiments (and continue to do so). These experiments have also been recreated by independent researchers and are also consistent with other findings.

Scientific research requires an open mind, but not such an open mind as to allow your brains to fall out. Having an open mind does not mean that we must accept something that goes against thorough, reality based observations.

You are advising us to go and read about the alternative therapies. I would like to point out to you that the author of this blog does that and more – he deconstructs the fallacies and the implausibility of such claims in this very blog. Use the search function at the top left corner of this page and see for yourself.

And no, we don’t just take Orac’s word for it. We have our mental faculties too, and we make use of them. Besides, documented evidence is not so hard to find in these days of the internet. All you have to do is search and put in the effort to comprehend.

Ironically, it is you who needs to read up on what science really says.

I hate to break this to you, but there is no point in denying that you are not an alt-med practitioner, because you are. You may (by your own admission) not be working for profit or selling something, but you still are an alt med practitioner.

Doctors charge money for their services because they also need to earn and feed a family. Unfortunately, the human body is complex and diseases are complex thus the training to understand and treat diseases takes too much time to allow for a simultaneous career in anything else. So doctors have to earn through the practice of medicine. But that does not mean that they (barring exceptions) resort to cheating patients to fill their own pockets or shill for BigPharma.

To Chris:

Read the JID but sorry- I am not a convert. In fact, I feel more convinced of Natural Hygiene principles than ever. How can you say that Natural Hygiene is not “real science”? I feel you probably have no real idea of these principles, so it was a throw-away line.

How could it be that many poor wretches suffering influenza & severe pneumonia in the Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918-9 survived without the usual rounds of drugs & aspirin, & were put in tents on hills because hospital beds were full?
“To Surgeon -General William Brooks the temperature charts told the story: fresh air, sunshine, a fruit & water diet were producing miraculous results. The results were startling.For the first time since the epidemic began there was hope that the unknown virus might yet be defeated with nature’s own weapons” pp78-79

What an absolute tragedy the esteemed scientists of today think our only hope against germs, pandemics & epidemics lies with vaccinations.

No Chris, I read your articles & thought, thank God I have raised my children & helped people with natural hygiene philosophy & practice. I understand the true power of healing that lies innate within us all.What would anyone learn from the official CDC propaganda: wash your hands, provide a barrier & get jabbed with chemicals, attenuated viruses & adjuvants. No wonder the States has a terrible health record in so many parameters, including childhhod health. No wonder there are more & more great doctors lambasting modern medical practice- from Dr John McDougall, Caldwell Esselstyn, Dean Ornish, Joel Fuhrman, Neal Barnard, Peter Sultana, Ray Strand, Bernie Siegel & others- free thinkers all of them, not beholden to the drug companies.

Indeed, it was DR Marcia Angell, 20 years editor of the NEJM who said: “the FDA is now so dependent on the pharmaceutical industry it has now become big pharma’s handmaiden” p243 in her book ‘The Truth about the Drug Companies: How they Deceive Us & What to do About it’

Also in her book

” I became increasingly troubled by the possibility that much published research is seriously flawed” (p18 intro)
“The pharmaceutical industry has an iron grip on Congress & the White House” (Back cover).

I suppose she has crossed to the dark side also, part of the woo brigade who believe in conspiracies & the like.

Wow all, if this is science, call me a quack!& I’ll continue to not vaccinate my children.

Emily:

If these principles were practiced, then 90% of both modern medicine & alt/med practitioners would be on the hunt for another line of income!

Ah yes, the “Terrain of the Body” argument. It’s bulldust. Healthy people can be killed by infections.

Give the body a chance!!! Why is medicine so bloody militaristic? Almost every deviation from normal physiology is suppressed. Anti-pyrretics, anti-biotics, anti-virals, anti hypertensives,anti-resorptives, anti -acids anti this, anti that.

Firstly, I think you’ll find that only severe deviations from normal physiology are treated. Secondly, the “anti-“s are against things that could easily kill you if left untreated.

Nutrition is not even taught to any great level in med school. My God!! Fasting is not even mentioned.

Would a Medical Practitioner care to comment? I believe you’re incorrect.

still we have tosillectomies, appendecectomies, cholecystectomies,hysterectomies, thyroidectomies, the vast majority of which could be avoided (not all!).

ORLY? I’d like to know how healthy living could have helped an 18-year-old I knew who had hypothyroidism. She died last year.

there are some medics who come upon more efficacious methods of restoring health, but they have to learn them outside medical school…Seek them out, you’ll be far better off than the just seeing the average grass-roots doctor or specialist who knows very little about nutrition, fasting & the true causes of health & disease.

The “true causes” of health and disease?? This is just more “terrain of the body” hogwash.

Emily, please answer my question. It is really a very simple thing to find out once you open your mind to real science and history.

Emily: And still we have tosillectomies, appendecectomies, cholecystectomies,hysterectomies, thyroidectomies, the vast majority of which could be avoided (not all!).

Hmmm. My mother developed endometrial cancer & a hysterectomy. I will be interested to hear how that could have been avoided (although I suppose your ‘not all!’ provides you with a convenient out).

T-reg, thank you. That was great. I always appreciate your comments here. Unfortunately Emily won’t pay any attention.

J. I. Rodale, founder and publisher of Prevention Magazine, was a guest on Dick Cavett’s show in 1972. Conversing with Cavett on stage, Rodale bragged “I’m in such good health that I fell down a long flight of stairs yesterday and I laughed all the way”. He also said “I’ve decided to live to be a hundred”, echoing an earlier claim that “I’m going to live to be 100, unless I’m run down by some sugar-crazed taxi driver.”
A few minutes later, still on stage, he suffered a heart attack and died. He was 72 years old.

@LW: Thank you. I am not sure whether we can convince emily to take a more rational approach, but the lurkers always benefit.

Emily, in a comment that is now out of moderation:

How can you say that Natural Hygiene is not “real science”? I feel you probably have no real idea of these principles, so it was a throw-away line.

Well, for one thing you have not shown anything to prove it is real and scientific. You are saying things that are contradictory, and just play name dropping with no real references.

What an absolute tragedy the esteemed scientists of today think our only hope against germs, pandemics & epidemics lies with vaccinations.

Stay away from open flames with that strawman.

You keep trying to “educate” us but you cannot answer a very simple question, one where finding the answer can take just a few minutes of research in the real scientific literature, but with a mind open to reality.

So, Emily, exactly why did the rate of measles incidence in the USA drop by 90% between 1960 and 1970. There are several articles indexed on PubMed about it, try looking there. No more excuses.

Also, Emily, please help explain the following phrases into English or provide documentation:

“Read the JID but sorry” — sorry, I don’t speak “initials.”

“”To Surgeon -General William Brooks the temperature charts…” —- citation needed, sorry, I am not take your word for it without proof.

“No wonder the States has a terrible health record in so many parameters, including childhhod health….” — compared to when? A century ago? Please provide citations.

“from Dr John McDougall, Caldwell Esselstyn, Dean Ornish, Joel Fuhrman, Neal Barnard, Peter Sultana, Ray Strand, Bernie Siegel & others- free thinkers all of them,…” — again citations, I recognize only one name, and I really don’t think you are depicting him accurately.

“Indeed, it was DR Marcia Angell, 20 years editor of the NEJM who said:…” — again, citation needed, because I need to see the whole quote in context.

The previous is why we insist on real citations. Please tell us why the rate of measles incidence in 1970 was only 10% of what is was in 1960 in the USA. I actually left you a very big clue, start there.

Emily’s claims aren’t even consistent. Yes, Semmelweis’s work reduced mortality. It did so because effective handwashing stops transmission of germs. Emily, you say you don’t accept the germ theory; was the disease somehow scared off by the nasty-smelling chemicals Semmelweis had doctors use? (And if so, why are soap and hot water, and alcohol-based hand sanitizers, also effective?)

Similarly, she observes that much of the increase in lifespan was due to reduction of infant mortality. True, but not supportive of her claims: infant mortality was reduced largely by hygiene (which prevents the spread of germs) and then by antibiotics and vaccination. Not by the old “treatment” of withholding food and water from people with diarrhea (which probably qualifies as a “fast” in Emily’s model).

Dr John McDougall, Caldwell Esselstyn and Dean Ornish all prescribe statins, and are thus clearly beholden to the drug companies.

For your edification (& all out there at discussionland), please study the principles & practices of Natural Hygiene & in particular the fantastic benefits of water-only fasting.

Do edify everyone about the fantastic benefits provided to William Carlton.

Vicki:

Emily’s claims aren’t even consistent.

I noticed. Why would she even mention white blood cells if she denies germ theory?

Narad:

Do edify everyone about the fantastic benefits provided to William Carlton.

Or how well it worked for Dr. Immanuel Pfeiffer:

Pfeiffer, a physician who advocated fasting and hypnotism, was at one time president of the American Psychic Society.28 A vehement critic of the Board of Health, he apparently thought that people in good health were not at risk for contracting smallpox — a belief that was not representative of the views expressed by those who opposed vaccination.

Despite her denial, her children are being protected by herd immunity, and even by the removal of germs from her local water supply. She is being a parasite on society.

And she still needs to answer my very simple question.

Please tell us why the rate of measles incidence in 1970 was only 10% of what is was in 1960 in the USA.

Please tell us why the mortality dropped drastically before the vaccine was used? Was it because of the vaccine.

Prevaccine era, why did 99.99% of the population NOT have to worry about measles?If you confer lifelong natural immunity, how many booster shots do you have to get? Why do you have to get booster shots? Isn’t the vaccine as good or better than natural infection?

In general, what type of person dies from measles? Why is the death rate now 1 per 1000 cases when it used to be about 1 per 9000? Why do some areas report mortality 1 per 100? Is the risk homogenous?

Everyone is not scared of measles in spite of all the fear mongering.

Hey Emily, are adenoidectomies all right? You didn’t mention them at all.

why did the rate of measles incidence in the USA drop by 90% between 1960 and 1970.

Diagnostic bias.

Measles has long been recognized as one of the “inevitable traumas of childhood” (356). Although the advent of a successful vaccination program during the past decade has greatly reduced the incidence of “clinical” measles infections (24, 180, 198), research on measles virus has recently received increased attention.

But since vaccinators are the number one germ theory denialists, they were molded not to report vaccine-induced measles infection.

Measles vaccine produces an inapparent or mild, noncommunicable infection.

Of course, no amount of explaining could have possibly convinced Chris, a germ denialist and an infection promoter both at the same time.

If “paralysis = polio” what’s measles? Skin rash?

They both are “clinical” diagnoses, so what would you expect of measles? Can you try a little bit harder? Geez.

Can you try a little bit harder? Geez.

So proud of what that I am pretty soon; don’t. Have like half-normal flora is not an oxymoron. This system will needlessly suffer. The bad body has to say to rest of vaccines, “is not arguing like a need serious” with his very similar to straw man. They will observe this discussion customer, day, you don’t know. So take yourself diseased, to as you, to the WC pertussis vaccine.

Measles has long been recognized as one of the “inevitable traumas of childhood” (356). Although the advent of a successful vaccination program during the past decade has greatly reduced the incidence of “clinical” measles infections (24, 180, 198), research on measles virus has recently received increased attention.

Have you noticed that the link was also broken the last time you posted this?

Have you noticed that the link was also broken the last time you posted this?

In fact I have but I thought it was just a glitch or something. Thanks, anyway.

Measles Virus and Its Associated Diseases

h_ttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC414019/pdf/bactrev00057-0102.pdf

@Treg252′

The SBM approach to the diseases you mentioned sound really good, except it’s not working. Read Dr Neal Barnard on what really needs to be done to deal with the diabetes epidemic! Read Dr Caldwell Esslestyn about what really needs to be done about the CHD epidemic! Read Dr Dean Ornish about what really needs to be done about the hormonally-based dideases of the breast & prostate! Read Dr Fuhrman concerning the nonsense put forth medically about SBM’s claim they understand nutrition! Read Dr Brown Better Bones site to really understand the dangers of the medical approach to osteopenia/osteoporosis!

Give me a break! Your SBM is failing & failing fast when it comes to chronic diseases. Why is ithis?

Dr Marcia Angell, 20 years Editor of the prestigious NEJM, calls it like it is: “the FDA has now become the handmaiden of Big Pharma!”

Read Dr Ray Strand’s expose of your SBM in his book Death by Prescription!

Read the JAMA story (1999 referred to earlier) where SBM is the FOURTH leading cause of death in the States, & that’s only factoring in “properly prescribed medication”.

Read the report by Dr Richard Ablin, the inventor of the PSA test- “it’s no better than a coin toss!”

Read Dr Donald Berwick’s ( outgoing head of Medicare/Medicaid) 2 months ago- up to ONE THIRD of SBM is a waste, costing 250billion dollars & “thousands of lives”

Read the Headline of the BMJ 2002:

“Who Owns the FDA- the People or the Drug Companies?”

Read about GSK being fined $3 BILLION 3 months ago for, wait for it, FRAUD. Plus other billion dollar fines for other drug companies.

SBM is being attacked from its own ranks- & rightly so. For the magnificent 10% of SBM, which does save lives & make life much easier, you have the other nonsense of 90% (read non-science).

Please, open your eyes! The truth is right in front of your face, but to anyone like you who thinks that denial is a river in Egypt, there is little hope!

Emily, why don’t you also do a bit of reading? Many of your exclamatory statements have been addressed by other commenters here (including requests for citations, please). Normal conversations tend to be two-way & usually don’t involve shouting at each other. The use of reason tends to be much more effective.

Emily, that came across more as a series of advertising plugs than as an actual attempt at discussion. It’s full of nonsequitors too, unless of course you *meant* for the various (unlinked) references to have no real relationship to one another.

Oh Emily, for someone who says she’s not for or against either SBM or CAM… you certainly do sound a lot like a pro-CAM person.

(Total anecdote, but recently I went to see a doctor about a chronic condition. You know what they told me? Exercise, balanced eating, avoid smoking (although I already do that). And this was instead of, or as well as, advising me to take some SBM meds in the meantime. In fact, every doctor I’ve ever met has recommended that… Even my dentists have remaked on eating well)

Can you at least try to post references/citations? Maybe you can’t answer the questions posed to you, but the least you could do is actually post references when encouraging people to read whatever it is you want them to read. How can anyone be open-minded when they don’t know what it is you’re asking them to look at?

Please, open your eyes! The truth is right in front of your face, but to anyone like you who thinks that denial is a river in Egypt, there is little hope!

Simply ranting and declaring victory isn’t impressive or convincing, Emily.

The truth is right in front of your face, but to anyone like you who thinks that denial is a river in Egypt, there is little hope!

Emily, I’m calling you “Cleo” from now on. Serious “mote-and-beam” projection issues going on here from the Queen of de Nile… *shakes head*

— Steve

Everyone is not scared of measles in spite of all the fear mongering.

Funny, you seem to be terribly frightened of the vaccine.

Emily:

Please, open your eyes! The truth is right in front of your face, but to anyone like you who thinks that denial is a river in Egypt, there is little hope!

Certainly. I looked and know the very simple answer to why the incidence rate of measles dropped 90% between 1960 and 1970 in the USA. Something you have yet to answer. Why is that? Plus, my question actually has to do with the subject of this article, not the diversions you keep trying to throw out.

Now, for the nth time, Emily, why was 1970 measles morbidity one tenth of what it was in 1960 in the United States of America? Please support your answer with actual citations. Thank you.

Welcome back to the Th1Th2bot Reunion Tour!

@ Science Mom: I gave up on “Emily” two days ago…and I figuratively put her in the ***kin sack then.

emily, I read “The Great Influenza: The Epic Story of the Deadliest Plague in History”. It did not feature happy influenza patients enjoying sunshine, fresh air and fruit in their hillside tents, recovering naturally away from those nasty doctors. The book instead describes virulently ill patients, young and previously healthy, dying by the thousands in those days before flu vaccines.

“SBM is being attacked from its own ranks”

Yes, self-criticism is considered normal and healthy in science-based medicine. So where’s that searching self-analysis and criticism in the world of alt med?

(crickets)

“Read Dr Donald Berwick’s ( outgoing head of Medicare/Medicaid) 2 months ago- up to ONE THIRD of SBM is a waste, costing 250billion dollars & “thousands of lives””

“SBM is being attacked from its own ranks- & rightly so. For the magnificent 10% of SBM, which does save lives & make life much easier, you have the other nonsense of 90% (read non-science).”

Is she saying 90/100=1/3?

Dangerous Bacon, that sound more like the tuberculosis sanitariums. Another reason why Emily needs to provide real citations.

But they were not hillside tents, they were actual buildings and had plenty of doctors. The author of the book The Egg and I (which turned into a movie that spawned the Pa and Ma Kettle movies), Betty McDonald, wrote about her experience in one in a book called The Plague and I. The first thing any patient had to endure was total bed rest, which was actually quite difficult for her.

But after World War II with the invention of antibiotics, those sanitariums are now a thing of the past. The sanitarium that Betty McDonald had her treatment is now a large private religious school that goes from preschool through 12th grade. The facility that replaced the original turned into a facility for the disabled, and still serves that function in a much different way than it did years ago (like transition housing).

Here’s the data Chris is referring to as a graph.

Also, according to the CDC Pink Book, in the ten years before the measles vaccine was introduced, 1951 to 1962, there were 5,704 deaths from measles in the USA. From 1971 to 1982 there were 236 deaths.

Is anyone seriously suggesting those huge drops in both morbidity and mortality are a coincidence, or due to improved nutrition or medical care?

I think our emily is being a tad bit dishonest when she says

Read Dr Donald Berwick’s ( outgoing head of Medicare/Medicaid) 2 months ago- up to ONE THIRD of SBM is a waste, costing 250billion dollars & “thousands of lives”

The quote seems to be:
“Twenty percent to thirty percent of health spending is “waste” that yields no benefit to patients, and that some of the needless spending is a result of onerous, archaic regulations enforced by his agency.”

You can agree with him or not, but he is not saying that 20-30% of SMB is “waste” but that the spending is. I’ve not been able to find a direct quote, but his major concerns seem to be that patients are over-treated, complexity of the system, too many rules and fraud.

I think our emily is being a tad bit dishonest when she says

Read Dr Donald Berwick’s ( outgoing head of Medicare/Medicaid) 2 months ago- up to ONE THIRD of SBM is a waste, costing 250billion dollars & “thousands of lives”

The quote seems to be:
“Twenty percent to thirty percent of health spending is “waste” that yields no benefit to patients, and that some of the needless spending is a result of onerous, archaic regulations enforced by his agency.”

You can agree with him or not, but he is not saying that 20-30% of SMB is “waste” but that the spending is. I’ve not been able to find a direct quote, but his major concerns seem to be that patients are over-treated, complexity of the system, too many rules and fraud.

I can see why you didn’t actually post the quote, since it doesn’t mean what you claim it means.

@Chris:

I noticed. Why would she even mention white blood cells if she denies germ theory?

She seems to interpret the germ theory as saying something like “if you’re exposed to a pathogen you will get infected”, so for her rejecting the germ theory doesn’t mean rejecting that there’s an immune system which fights pathogens.

Matthew Cline:

She seems to interpret the germ theory as saying something like “if you’re exposed to a pathogen you will get infected”,

So she just lacks a basic understanding of high school biology. Why is she trying to educate us?

@ stewartt1982: I located a more complete quote here:

December 3, 2011
Health Official Takes Parting Shot at ‘Waste’
By ROBERT PEAR

WASHINGTON — The official in charge of Medicare and Medicaid for the last 17 months says that 20 percent to 30 percent of health spending is “waste” that yields no benefit to patients, and that some of the needless spending is a result of onerous, archaic regulations enforced by his agency.

The official, Dr. Donald M. Berwick, listed five reasons for what he described as the “extremely high level of waste.” They are overtreatment of patients, the failure to coordinate care, the administrative complexity of the health care system, burdensome rules and fraud.

“Much is done that does not help patients at all,” Dr. Berwick said, “and many physicians know it.”

Dr. Berwick also discusses The Part D (Drug) Medicare coverage and National Health Care.

Source-N.Y. Times “Health & Policy”- December 3, 2011

@Emily:

Science based medicine is being attacked from its own ranks! Oh the horror!!

Welcome to the world of SBM, where self criticism is routine. SBM criticises itself to figure out where it is going wrong. When was the last time you tried to consider that what you may believe maybe flawed? The answer, I presume, is never.

What is different about what Drs. Barnard and Esslestyn are proclaiming and what SBM advocates?
I will admit that I have not read their books, but I did go to their websites and also read what I could find on pubmed by them. The only differences that I could find are:

Dr. Barnard strongly advocates a vegan diet. However, he doesn’t back it with any data that a vegan diet is any more beneficial than a low fat, balanced diet with an abundance of fruits, vegetables, cereals and legumes with low consumption of meat/poultry/fish/dairy.

Dr. Esslestyn proclaims along the same lines, except that he also advocates maintaining total cholestrol to <150 mg/dl instead of the currently recommended <200 mg/dl. He also calls for lower fat in the diet than the current ideal of 30%. Also, he does mention the benefits of using statins along with diet modifications in managing serum cholestrol levels.

Not quite the radically different opinions that you are making them seem to be. Further research may mandate a lesser total cholestrol level than currently recommended. If that maybe the case, the guidelines will be revised (as has been done in the past in light of new evidence).

As regards Dr. Esslestyn’s claims of total reversal of CAD with diet alone, when even expert cardiologists had ‘written those patients off’ – well it is not implausible, however, where is the data that the risk is worth the benefit?

When one says that an expert cardiologists has “written off” the patient, it usually implies that the chances of survival are abysmally low without surgery or interventional procedures. It does not mean that the chances of survival are nil. Surgery or interventional procedures are advised in such a situation because, if solely diet and lifestyle modification are used, there is a slim (not nil) chance of survival. Those who may take the risk, may most likely not survive, but some may. Where is the data that most survive without intervention in such cases?

How do you know that he is only talking about success stories and not the failures? Proper research talks about and analyses the findings from both, weighing the benefits against the risks.

As further research is conducted, better understanding of previously overlooked or hitherto poorly understood parameters may emerge. This may allow the cardiologist to determine more accurately* who requires procedures and who does not. Until such information emerges, it is not worth the risk to recommend against procedures for every patient in such a situation.

*in the above mentioned situation

About SBM failing miserably in chronic diseases – the fact that we have patients who live long enough to suffer from their chronic diseases is a testament to the effectiveness of SBM. Without adequate management of the conditions, many would not live long enough to see the long term consequences of their disorder, because the disorder itself would have killed them long before that. As the life expectancy of patients with chronic disorders improves, the attendant long term consequences of those disease emerge which, again, SBM is making an effort to prevent. I don’t see the woo-meisters doing anything of the sort. You haven’t moved forward from the notions and misconceptions of the past 3 millennia.

Hey the new troll is a corker:)

Be careful though because when you argue with an idiot the casual observer just sees two idiots arguing 😉

Emily, have you figured out why measles declined so quickly in the USA between 1960 and 1970 yet? Please do educate on how that happened.

For not supplying citations & references for my arguments, I apologize. I simply do not have the time to go through my notes & library & drag them out,as, like many, I have multiple responsibilities & time constraints.

If you think that the aforementioned doctors are not highly critical of SBM, you haven’t read/heard them enough. Read Dr Joel Fuhrman’ latest book, SuperImmunity, second chapter”The Failure of Mdodern Medicine.”

And yes, those 3 doctors do use statins but only occasionally. Read Prevent & Reverse Heart Disease by Esselstyn & see his evidence of atherosclerotic reversal without drugs!

And Chris, I know why YOU think the measles rates declined 1960-70 but what does that prove? Vaccines work? Please define ‘work’? Because something is not there, doesn’t mean it has gone away- it just might change form. Suppress the acute, & guess what. You get the chronic! There are 2 words which have done more damage to health than any other 2 & they are “IT WORKS” .
To be continued, as I have some sick people I need to help pilot back to health!

@ Emily:

A quick note: Doctors (or anybody else) attempting to use books to contradict the consensus peer-reviewed literature is a big red flag. Because books aren’t peer-reviewed, they can claim whatever they want to.

Those who have an actual case, and are interested in making it in a way which will actually convince others, make it in the peer-reviewed literature. Those who can’t, should be viewed with extreme skepticism.

If you can’t support your claims with REAL citations, they are unworthy of serious consideration.

And I see that emily still hasn’t answered Chris’ question.

Not that surprised, really.

Emily:

For not supplying citations & references for my arguments, I apologize. I simply do not have the time to go through my notes & library & drag them out,as, like many, I have multiple responsibilities & time constraints.

Do you even know what the PubMed index is, and how to use it?

Emily:

And Chris, I know why YOU think the measles rates declined 1960-70 but what does that prove? Vaccines work? Please define ‘work’?

“Work” for vaccines: kids don’t get the disease the vaccine intended for.

Now we wait for your explanation of why only 10% of the rate sick kids with measles in 1970 than they did in 1960. And the measles rate in the USA has never been more than half the level since 1970.

Emily:

Because something is not there, doesn’t mean it has gone away- it just might change form. Suppress the acute, & guess what. You get the chronic!

That is an interesting excuse for not answering the question. The old “it turned to something else that we really can’t define or prove, but we will just call it chronic” dodge. Yes, I’ve seen it before.

Now do something original and come up with a real answer, and include actual citations.

And Chris, I know why YOU think the measles rates declined 1960-70 but what does that prove? Vaccines work? Please define ‘work’? Because something is not there, doesn’t mean it has gone away – it just might change form. Suppress the acute, & guess what. You get the chronic!

Um, what on earth does that mean? Are you saying that vaccinating against measles somehow created a new “chronic measles” that has so far escaped the notice of the health care community? If that’s not what you meant, then please clarify.

BTW, I have not read the Dr. Joel Fuhrman book you keep citing but I had a look at his website and I’m not impressed. He looks like a garden-variety diet and supplement shill. However, I don’t see anything about vaccines there either.

http://www.drfuhrman.com

emily: “Vaccines work? Please define ‘work’? Because something is not there, doesn’t mean it has gone away- it just might change form. Suppress the acute, & guess what. You get the chronic!”

I’d also like to hear about this “chronic measles” you seem to think has been created by vaccination. Also more about smallpox and polio, diseases I am shocked to find that we did not really eradicate, but which purportedly continue in mysterious “chronic” forms that are only detectable by anti-vaccine zealots.

I will be patient waiting for the answer, as emily is off saving people from various ailments, some of which may even exist.

Just going to add another call to emily …

Can you explain why you mis-represented Dr Donald Berwick’s quote? Maybe you read somewhere that he said 30% of SBM is a waste, rather than read it yourself? That would be an honest, but one that should never happened, mistake.

Maybe that “chronic measles” is of the asymptomatic, non-transmissible, undetectable kind that Thingy is so concerned about for reasons that escape me.

I would like to know about Emily’s follow-up of her “cured” RA, MS and lupus cases. Call me cynical but I suspect that they have a period of remission on, but not because of, her natural hygiene fasting/diet which leads her to count them as successes. Later they relapse, realize that natural hygiene is hokum and find a proper doctor, never going back to Emily, who never finds out her approach doesn’t work.

That’s the way a lot of so-called alternative cancer cures “work” in that they lose many patients to follow-up but count them as successes anyway, despite the fact many of them have actually died.

To be continued, as I have some sick people I need to help pilot back to health!

Methinks Emily’s pronouncements of having nothing to sell or promote is somewhat dishonest. (But I’m willing to bet she’d retort that she’s only helping out of the goodness of her heart)

Why do I get the feeling she’s also suggesting that the vaccines turning things into chronic conditions will actually end up getting us back to the original reason for this discussion…?

@Edith Prickly:

Are you saying that vaccinating against measles somehow created a new “chronic measles” that has so far escaped the notice of the health care community?

Well, the article Hidden in Plain Sight by Richard Moskowitz at whale.to (not linking, to avoid the spam filter) claims that the reason that the attenuated measles virus usually causes no symptoms is because the attenuated virus evades the immune system, which lets the virus cause a permanent infection. However, this likely isn’t what Emily is talking about, since she seems to think that vaccines suppress the symptoms of the disease they vaccinate against.

Yesterday I listened to This Week in Virology. Much of it does go over my head, but I do absorb nuggets between the puns. One thing I learned was that measles virus like to invade cells that deal with immunity, which is why many people who die from measles die from secondary infections. Due to the cells measles replicates in, the immune system is suppressed and this leaves an opportunity for other pathogens.

Nice, isn’t it.

my post @293:
That should have been – “Dr. Esslestyn proclaims along the same lines, except that he also advocates maintaining total cholestrol to less than 150 mg/dl instead of less than 200 mg/dl, which is currently recommended.

@Emily:

As for reading their books for evidence, well, if they can publish a few papers which are listed on pubmed, they can also publish their findings in support of these other claims on pubmed. But a search reveals nothing of the sort.

As has been pointed above, you cannot expect to be taken seriously, if you are going to cite a coffee table book as your evidence.

If you think that the aforementioned doctors are not highly critical of SBM, you haven’t read/heard them enough

Perhaps you are right that I have not read enough about their claims and thus my conclusions about them maybe premature.
But have you looked at the possibility that you don’t know much about SBM, either? It is also possible that they are proclaiming SBM to be flawed, relying on your ignorance of SBM and selling you almost what SBM advocates, just repackaged and at a higher price.

On their website, they are basically peddling books and supplements, so why does it seem to you that they have no vested interests in their claims, but conventional medicine does?

Read Prevent & Reverse Heart Disease by Esselstyn & see his evidence of atherosclerotic reversal without drugs!

Emily, we are taking the time to read your posts, even though we don’t agree with you. The least you can do is read our posts too. I dealt with this in my post @293.

I suggest you discard your notions of conspiracy theories for once and look at things. You alt med types keep claiming that SBM advocates are too narrow minded. However, the fact is that your inability to even momentarily suspend your beliefs about conspiracy theories indicates that the description is more apt when applied to you.

Maybe that “chronic measles” is of the asymptomatic, non-transmissible, undetectable kind that Thingy is so concerned about for reasons that escape me.

It’s called persistent measles virus infection (i.e. SSPE) caused by either natural infection or vaccine.

One thing I learned was that measles virus like to invade cells that deal with immunity, which is why many people who die from measles die from secondary infections. Due to the cells measles replicates in, the immune system is suppressed and this leaves an opportunity for other pathogens.

Nice, isn’t it.

You know what else the measles virus** is capable of doing other than immunosuppression? Primary infection, viremia and persistent infection.

Nice, isn’t it?

**wild-type or vaccine-type

“Emily, you need to review your understanding of basic biology. Antivirals kill viruses & antibiotics kill bacteria, both in contexts where these microbes would quite possibly kill us. Neither viruses nor bacteria are part of our “normal physiology” (although they may be part of our normal commensal community)”

When you understand the principles & practices of Natural Hygiene, you understand that health & disease is governed by the law of cause & effect. Diseases need causes & when causes are introduced, disease is just as natural as health, but it it is not normal. Disease is the manifestation of life in disadvantaguos circumstances, while health is simply life expressing itself in advantagous or favourable circumstances.

Our bodies PRODUCE disease, they don’t resist it! You cannot resist something that has no entity, and disease has no entitative existence. It is really defined by a collection of symptoms & signs, the main ones being common to many diseases eg inflammation, fever, pain, secretions etc.

A Hygienic Practitioner will remove the causes (where possible) & then supply the conditions of health. These conditions of health do not include your so-called alt/med woo, nor big pharma’s big berthas, but DO include modifications of the materials, agents & influences that have a normal relation to life.

Eg- Years ago our 3 kids all had measles, naturally acquired (the “herd” must have let us down), they had fever, discomfort, prostration, anorexia, light sensitivity & of course the rash. Their symptoms, to us, were reparatory in nature, remedial & defensive. From our point of view, their little bodies were working as designed, producing such symptoms naturally in an effort to re-instigate howmeostasis. We were not concerned one little bit about what serotype of measles virus was involved or how we could lower their temp’s with med’s. The virus was to us, an accessory after the fact.
The symptoms ARE the resistance, just as someone who swallows a poison will vomit. The vomiting is natural (but not normal), it is THE resistance. This is where both sides of medicine are flawed. They “treat” the symptoms. Hygienists view symptoms as “allies in disguise”.(wooooo there , I hear the chant).

So back to the kids. What did we do? Nothing, intelligently! They all fasted on nothing but water, a little fruit after that & all conserved their energy by total bed rest. The outcome was predicably favourable, without woo or big berthas. The fevers did their job (leukotaxis) without any anti-pyrretic drugs or other alt med “remedies”. Again, woo becomes wow. Our 3 kids have become the beneficiaries of this priceless, ancient wisdom, that does not get any real emphasis in any health school, allopathic or alternative.

Sadly, most of our children’s friends have had their tonsils out (unnecessarily), their appendix out (ditto above), are on puffers ( ditto)& have regular doses of anti-biotics. How tragic! They look at our children , who have all experienced acute illnesses the same as their friends, & wonder why they are bodily intact & drug-free. I wonder??

Fasting is the greatest way to potentiate our health, detoxify the system ( I hear that chorus of moans across the seas again)& reverse our biological ages. Fasting, however is not a cure. Doing nothing can hardly be called a cure.

The lady who before XMas recovered from severe, unremitting RA, fasted for 21 days ( water-only, as this is the only real fast), recovered because her body had the ability & vitality to heal itself. Heberdens nodes reduced in size, ALL pain went from the involved joints in the hands & elbows, & dexterity returned 90%. Even her rheumatologist was stunned. This was not a cycle of remission/exacerbation as she had had no remissions.

Another gentleman with RA required 28 days on water. One lady with MS did 31 days, & went back to her neurologist with no need of interferon injections. She has maintained that for 6 years now.

Does everyone respond so well? No! Do they all improve? Yes. Can most get off their med’s? Yes. Can they go backwards at times? Most certainly, especially if they re-introduce the causes of disease again.

I have witnessed so many of these over the years for all sorts of illnesses, not just auto-immune conditions.

I know you will scream “anecdotal”, & you are right. Although they are not published in peer-reviewed journals, I know there will be some one out there who will be suffering enough through their disease & the medical treatment of it that they might investigate this line of inquiry, if so please read Fasting Can Save Your Life by Herbert Shelton or Fasting & Eating for Health by DR Joel Fuhrman, or contact Dr Stephan Esser,(Clinical Fellow at Harvard Medical School & an Assistant in Clinical Development at Harvard’s Institute of Lifestyle Medicine) or Dr Michael Klaper (www.healthpromoting.com)

Let truth be your authority, not authority your truth!

Emily:

Our bodies PRODUCE disease, they don’t resist it! You cannot resist something that has no entity, and disease has no entitative existence.

Seriously?!?! Seriously?!?! Helloooo! There are these things called microbes which, if they get into our bodies, can cause all sorts of harm to us.

Years ago our 3 kids all had measles…Their symptoms, to us, were reparatory in nature, remedial & defensive.

Reparatory and remedial? Umm, no.

The virus was to us, an accessory after the fact.

Are you for real?! If they hadn’t been infected, they wouldn’t have had the symptoms. You’re saying that the virus follows the disease. “Terrain of the Body” is false.

Finally, I love how your last line is “Let truth be your authority, not authority your truth” straight after listing a number of “authorities.

Wow Emily – so you’re telling me that my appendix, which when it was removed was 5″ long, black & gangrenous, was unnecessary?

So I should tell the doctor, who kindly informed my wife that I would have been dead in 24hrs without the surgery (stupid stubborn temperment on my part – oh, it isn’t that bad…blah, blah, blah) that he made a mistake?

You have got to be an extremely stupid maroon….

To Julian @ 311
“Seriously?!?! Seriously?!?! Helloooo! There are these things called microbes which, if they get into our bodies, can cause all sorts of harm to us”.

What do you mean, IF they get into our bodies?. For every
one cell of Julian, there are ten viuses & bacteria. Microbes are ubiquitous in nature. I honestly laugh when I see such microbe paranoia. Why aren’t we sick all the time? We can’t escape them. You have residing in you microbes of all descriptions, by the trillions!!! How come my family (never any flu shots) have not had the flu for over 30 years while our neighbours,(unsure about their vaccination status) gets the flu EVERY year! And they blame the bugs. We laugh, not at them, but to ourselves. I guess the influenza viruses take it easy on us for some reason.

“Reparatory and remedial? Umm, no”.

ALL symptoms are remedial, defensive, regulatory & reparatory. Think about this for a moment. You cough. Why? To expectorate or clear the airways. It is defensive, whether clearing dust or mucous or whatever. You vomit. Why? To rid the body of toxic or unwanted matter, be it food, bile or whatever. You get a fever. Why? For every degree in rise of temperature, the rate of travel of leukocytes doubles, this is a universal, reparatory process called leukotaxis.It is needed & reparatory, the body is working as designed! Fevers are beneficial in nature. Endotherms like humans manufacture their own fevers while ectotherms, such as lizards, have to rely on external thermo-regulation, like the sun, to help restore normal function.

“Are you for real?! If they hadn’t been infected, they wouldn’t have had the symptoms. You’re saying that the virus follows the disease. “Terrain of the Body” is false”.

Symptoms serve a purpose, whether they are the result of an infection, inflammation, a burn, poisoning, whatever. The symptoms ARE the resistance!! This is basic biology which has been lost in modern medicine because, as Dr Marcia Angell stated in her seminal book “The truth about the Drug Companies: How They Deceive Us”:

” The FDA is now so dependent on the pharmaceutical industry that it has become big pharma’s handmaiden” P 242.

And Dr Angell might know. She was Editor of the New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM) for 20 years.

The plethora of drugs to suppress symptoms is the result.

And tragically, we pay a heavy price for such ignorance.

To Lawrence @ 312:

I have seen numerous people with acute appendicitis fast (water-only) back to health with no drugs or surgery required.

I know what I know.I have piloted many of these people personally.

You see Lawrence, this is the difficulty when answering your point with such little to go by. How long had you had the pain? Did you medicate the pain initially? Did you drive the fever down? Did you eat when feeling unwell?
These facts are critical. What I am saying is that if you, when the discomfort became noticeable, had NOT eaten anything & rested, you would have your appendix now, in good health

If you soldier on & ignore the pain, & worse, medicate it & drive the fever down with anti-pyrretics, you will be in for a hard landing!!! At this point, after ignoring (& more importantly suppressing) your potentially appendix-saving symptoms, you might need surgery for peritonitis, no doubt.The symptoms would only get worse in this case, until drastic measures are required.

I have NEVER said I oppose all surgery. Never blamed conspiracies. Never said ALL SBM was bad.

Believe it or not, most of the bloggers & I have much in common, as Natural Hygienic principles are scientifically based- because such principles are axiomatic, that is, they are self evident:

The human body is self-developing, self- defending & self repairing!

Emily, your first paragraph of #310 doesn’t make any sense.

As for the rest, it’s like you remember your high school biology but then muddle it up with whatever woo you’ve read since then. (Would you mind telling us how you manage to see so many people with whom you ‘help’ with fasting? Is it because you’re really actually a CAM practitioner?)

I see the crux of your argument is “SBM treats the symptoms, not the cause” which is typical CAM bullshit. SBM treats the symptoms *whilst* discovering and treating the causes. Hence getting surgery whilst also providing blood pressure medicine in the meantime, etc.

Your anecdote about your kids and bed rest simply proves what the others have been saying: that SBM actually recommends, for some situations, exactly that. That you think it’s some sort of undiscovered or hidden treatment plan says a lot about your comprehension skills. And willingness to be open minded and/or change your mind about what you think SBM is.

‘Ancient wisdom’, wow you are full of CAM canards. Want to try something a little less obvious for your next trick?

‘reverse our biological ages’… I literally laughed out loud at that. Nice to know you’ve discovering the fountain of youth, and yet no other researcher has. You should write up a paper and publish it. You’d win a Nobel prize for it.

The rest is blah blah anecdote, blah. You have no peer-reviewed papers or other citations (wow, what a surprise, you didn’t post any like you’ve been repeatedly asked to), and instead have confirmation bias and pop-health books.

Bah, you’re a CAM crank and not particularly coming up with anything unusual in terms of ‘arguments’. And here I was hoping for something a bit more interesting from a germ denier.

Emily @310:

“Years ago our 3 kids all had measles, naturally acquired (the “herd” must have let us down),”

Well, you obviously weren’t doing anything to help the herd out, were you? None of them were vaccinated, so when they were exposed, they got the disease. They all got it. You notice how contagious it is?

“they had fever, discomfort, prostration, anorexia, light sensitivity & of course the rash.”

The vast majority of children in Western countries for decades have never experienced those symptoms. That’s because they were protected by vaccination. Likewise, the vast majority never experienced smallpox or polio, and neither will your children. The vast majority have not experienced mumps, rubella, diphtheria, or tetanus, but yours may well get the privilege of experiencing those. I hope they are as sanguine about it as you are.

“Their symptoms, to us, were reparatory in nature, remedial & defensive. From our point of view, their little bodies were working as designed, producing such symptoms naturally in an effort to re-instigate howmeostasis.”

Well, yes. If they had been badly burned, their little bodies would have worked as designed to repair the damage and fight off the infectious organisms that would try to move in through the damaged skin. If they were in a major car accident, their little bodies would have worked as designed to repair the damage and knit their bones back together. If they’d been bitten by dogs, fallen off a roof, half-drowned in a swimming pool — see, there are all kinds of situations where their little bodies could work as designed to repair the damage in an effort to re-establish homeostasis.

Most of us would rather not have the damage in the first place. Which is why we take precautions, like vaccinating.

Hey, that’s funny.  

Emily @213: “If germs cause disease why are not my 4 kids sick with flu & other illnesses that their friends have?”

Emily @310: “Years ago our 3 kids all had measles, naturally acquired”

But then, bizarrely, “The virus was to us, an accessory after the fact.” Does that mean they were sick first and then the virus moved in?

@Emily: Wow! Salutations to you… with a face-palm.

I don’t know which century you are living in, but in the present century, quite a lot is known about disease causation, especially regarding infectious diseases.
Tell me, how do you think the advocates of SBM come up with hypotheses and then theories on disease causation? I think you imagine it to be a council of elders sitting together and dreaming stuff up as to how to pump in more drugs into patients. That, however, is not how things are done in SBM.

Micro organisms have not only been detected in the lesions of infectious diseases – for most of the infectious diseases, there is a one on one relationship between the micro organism and the disease.
Also, when the micro organism is isolated from the lesion, grown in the lab and a perfectly healthy mammal is exposed to the organism, a similar illness is produced in the animal and that too, only the exposed animals develop the particular infectious disease. Please tell me that in such experiments, the exposed animal suddenly chooses to have exactly the same bad diet and lifestyle as the humans from which the organism was isolated.

The characteristics of a disease are not just defined by clinical features. Often, clinical features may vary, but the lesions have characteristic features when observed under the microscope.
In fact, specific mechanisms as to how the organism causes the disease are also known for many of them.

You say that the organism follows the disease. So tell me, how do you explain that in case of whooping cough, the organism Bordetella pertussis can be isolated from the respiratory epithelium before the characteristic clinical as well as pathological* features of the disease develop, but not afterwards? In your world, does cause follow the effect? The mechanism by which B. pertussis destroys the respiratory epithelium is also known.

*destruction of the ciliated epithelial cells.

Also, how do you explain epidemics of acute infectious diseases? Do hundreds of people all of a sudden develop the effects of their bad life-styles at the same time? How do you explain that such epidemics tend to have a geographical distribution which appears as if the epidemic is fanning out from foci? How is it that contacts of cases get the disease but not those not in contact? How is it that measures to control vectors of infectious agents helps to curb such epidemics?

Also, how do people recover from these illnesses without changing their diet and lifestyles? Many never even get the same infectious disease ever again without changing their lifestyle and diet.

@LW: Ah you nailed it before me. I was just searching for the post where she mentions that her kids never got the flu.

“Does that mean they were sick first and then the virus moved in?”

I have a sneaking suspicion that that is what it means.

Oh dear.

Emily,

Perhaps you could answer a few questions about Natural Hygiene then:

1. What is the mysterious ‘nerve energy’ and how is it detected?
2. What are the names of the toxins that cause toxemia (in the NH sense, not the real medicine meaning of the term)?
3. How does Natural Hygiene explain newborns who have neuroblastoma – a type of childhood cancer?
4. How does Natural Hygiene explain the death of Dennis G. McDaniel while undergoing Natural Hygiene treatment at a Natural Hygiene retreat?
“Despite heroic attempts to save the life of DENNIS G. McDANIEL by competent health care personnel, Mr. McDANIEL continued to suffer with dehydration, malnutrition, diarrhea, low blood pressure, elevated pulse, and elevated fever, resulting in acute renal failure, acute respiratory distress and cardiac failure. DENNIS G. McDANIEL’s physical condition continued to deteriorate, despite competent efforts to save his life, and he died on September 24, 2005”
http://www.casewatch.org/civil/vetrano/complaint.shtml

I really would like answers to these questions.

LW,
What the Natural Hygienists appear to believe is that all diseases are purification crises when “toxemia” (their usage of this term is for something very different from preeclampsia) caused by “enervation” overwhelms the system and the body gets rid of the “toxins” by manifesting a disease.

It just does not make any sense to me, and displays an almost complete ignorance of how the human body works.

I also have a few questions for Emily on this subject in moderation.

@Emily

Our bodies PRODUCE disease, they don’t resist it!

Yes, and piles of garbage produce rats and rotting meat produces maggots. I do recommend you try living in the modern era, rather than a century or two ago.

This is funny too:

Emily @310: “Disease is the manifestation of life in disadvantaguos circumstances, while health is simply life expressing itself in advantagous or favourable circumstances….Years ago our 3 kids all had measles, naturally acquired”

So, what did Emily do to her children to make their lives so disadvantageous or unfavorable that they developed measles? That was a pretty rotten thing for her to do, don’t you think?

Of course, I think what she did was to deny them the measles vaccine (if it was available at the time), but I do wonder what she thinks she did.

Emily:

When you understand the principles & practices of Natural Hygiene, you understand that health & disease is governed by the law of cause & effect. Diseases need causes & when causes are introduced, disease is just as natural as health, but it it is not normal.

So where are these laws of Natural Hygiene discussed in a PubMed indexed paper? And I put italics on two of your words. Contradict yourself much?

Our bodies PRODUCE disease, they don’t resist it! You cannot resist something that has no entity, and disease has no entitative existence.

Earlier you said: “inflammatory cytokines are deactivated, white blood cells de-marginated & near miracles happen.” Do you know how cytokines and leukocytes work. That phrase was a description of what happens with fasting, except I read Shelton managed to kill more than one patient through starvation.

Eg- Years ago our 3 kids all had measles, naturally acquired (the “herd” must have let us down),

That is because folks like you are reducing herd immunity. You only have yourself and the rest of your anti-vax friends to thank for that.

Sadly, most of our children’s friends have had their tonsils out (unnecessarily), their appendix out (ditto above), are on puffers ( ditto)& have regular doses of anti-biotics. How tragic!

That is odd, because tonsils are very seldom removed these days, and it is very odd for a child to have an appendectomy. Plus, regular doses of antibiotics does not sound right. You have just made and extraordinary claim, I expect you to support it with some kind of survey that those interventions are as common as you say.

Emily:

Let truth be your authority, not authority your truth!

Oh, good! Does this mean you will be telling why the American morbidity of measles in 1970 was only 10% of what it was in 1960 with the “truth” soon?

I can’t wait to see what that truth is! Do tell us, and please make sure it is well documented.

The lady who before XMas recovered from severe, unremitting RA, fasted for 21 days ( water-only, as this is the only real fast), recovered because her body had the ability & vitality to heal itself. Heberdens nodes reduced in size

That’s interesting, especially since Heberden’s nodes are solid bone, and are found in osteoarthritis, not rheumatoid arthritis.

Emily,
How does starving someone in any way remove the causes of RA (or MS or lupus) and restore the conditions of health? Are you suggesting that these diseases are the result of the accumulation of toxins, and that fasting removes those toxins? I ask because you mention detox, and I have come across this idea before. It contradicts a large amount of what we have learned about these diseases. Even if toxins were the cause, and there is no convincing evidence that this is the case, why would fasting remove toxins from the body? We have a liver and kidneys that are extremely efficient at removing toxic substances from our bodies.

I spent many years working in labs that did hundreds of renal and liver function tests every day, including many people with RA, MS and lupus. Their renal and liver function was generally normal, with no sign that their kidneys and livers were having problems excreting anything. If those with these diseases have livers and kidneys that are unable to remove mysterious toxins when they are working well, why would they be able to remove them when the body is stressed by starvation? Ketosis caused by starvation may actually damage the liver.

You were lucky with your children when they got measles. A significant minority of children with measles develop complications like pneumonia or encephalitis that can have permanent sequelae, like death. Would you have interpreted pneumonia or encephalitis as “their little bodies… working as designed, producing such symptoms naturally in an effort to re-instigate homeostasis”? I have to wonder at what point you would have called an ambulance. “Again, woo becomes wow” – not really, the odds of a really serious complication of measles are about 1 in 500, nothing to do with fasting or natural hygiene. Taking such risks with your children’s lives and health when there is an extremely safe vaccine available seems irrational to me, not something to be proud of at all.

I am unconvinced by your tales of successfully treating RA and MS. Your account is perfectly compatible with what we know of the unpredictable courses of these diseases.

You report that your lady with “severe, unremitting RA” also had Heberdens nodes, which are a sign of osteoarthritis, not RA, as TBruce points out. Maybe she had both, or was misdiagnosed and on the wrong medication (is this the same lady who was on methotrexate for 19 years?) – that’s the trouble with anecdotes, you don’t know what variables might be responsible for your observations. “ALL pain went from the involved joints in the hands & elbows, & dexterity returned 90%. Even her rheumatologist was stunned.” There is some evidence that fasting can temporarily reduce inflammation in RA by reducing interleukin levels, but fasting also has adverse effects due to increases in reactive oxygen species and oxidative damage. In the absence of any studies showing long-term benefits of fasting in RA, count me unimpressed. “This was not a cycle of remission/exacerbation as she had had no remissions.” Well she has certainly had one remission, which may or may not have had anything to do with her fast.

One lady with MS did 31 days, & went back to her neurologist with no need of interferon injections. She has maintained that for 6 years now.

This sounds like exactly what you would expect in the relapsing-remitting subtype of MS. By the way, after 31 days of subsisting on only water you would expect sustained ketosis, probable hypokalemia and hyponatremia, probably some muscle wasting and a significant risk of kidney damage from rhabdomyolysis. Sudden death in prolonged fasting is not uncommon.

Does everyone respond so well? No!

Why not?

Do they all improve? Yes. Can most get off their med’s? Yes.

Regression to the mean and placebo effect?

Can they go backwards at times?

Of course, but that’s their fault, right?

Most certainly, especially if they re-introduce the causes of disease again.

Thought so. What was the cause of RA, MS and lupus again?

I have witnessed so many of these over the years for all sorts of illnesses, not just auto-immune conditions.

Regression to the mean, placebo effects and confirmation bias?

I know you will scream “anecdotal”, & you are right.

Perhaps you don’t quite understand what that means? It means that you may well have fooled yourself into believing that a therapy that does more harm than good is helping people. I have known a number of people with RA, MS and lupus over the years who have lurched from one alternative treatment to another (including fasting and other dietary approaches), their faith in each treatment lasting about as long as their normal cycles of remission and exacerbation. Each of the alternative practitioners they saw had as much faith in their therapy as you do in yours.

The example I like to give is bloodletting, which was popular for thousands of years, and was believed by intelligent, capable people (Benjamin Rush for example) to be an excellent and life-saving treatment for a wide variety of illnesses. When subjected to crude clinical trials bloodletting was found to result in a ten-fold increase in mortality, though even in the face of this evidence some refused to believe it made things worse. The practitioners of bloodletting who had such faith in its efficacy had been fooling themselves, just as I believe you have been fooling yourself over the efficacy of natural hygiene.

I think what Emily is claiming is something like: being vulnerable to infection is a “symptom” of not being in perfect health, and becoming infected is a logical consequence of being vulnerable to infection.

Most of Emily’s children’s friends have had their appendices out? Wow! I wonder what accounts for such a staggering rate of appendicitis. That would seem to be pretty damn unusual. Same for the high rates of tonsillectomy and routine antibiotics, though I’d guess that if things are so crazy that all the kids are coming down with appendicitis and I were a doctor there, I’d probably be freaking out about infectious bacteria too.

You cannot resist something that has no entity, and disease has no entitative existence.

Why do I get the feeling that Emily could also go on about Royal Rife?

I think what Emily is claiming is something like: being vulnerable to infection is a “symptom” of not being in perfect health, and becoming infected is a logical consequence of being vulnerable to infection.
In other words, it’s your own damn fault for not being as enlightened as her. I don’t suppose it ever occured to her that, even if it did work, fasting on fruit and water isn’t exactly a viable tactic for everyone in the world?

I think what Emily is claiming is something like: being vulnerable to infection is a “symptom” of not being in perfect health, and becoming infected is a logical consequence of being vulnerable to infection.

Natural Hygiene has a somewhat peculiar notion of “infection.” Let’s go straight to the horse’s ass mouth:

The idea of specific infection has no place in a rational philosophy of cause. So-called specific infection is septic infection. Sepsis is the only infecting agent in all the so-called specific diseases. Sepsis arises from decomposition. All secretions, excretions and exudations are non-toxic until they decompose, whereupon they become toxic.

Shelton rambles on in this fashion for some time (“An Introduction to Natural Hygiene”) before mentioning in passing that having a reaction to poison ivy is also “infection.”

Oh, and Emily, how many deaths caused by water-fasting has Vivian Vetrano been in on, anyway? There’s at least William Carlton and Dennis McDaniel, but it seems like Shelton’s Health School had more of these little oopsies while she was there.

I have to say, I fear for the lives of anyone who relies on Emily for health care advice or support. Treating appendicitis with fasting is all too likely to be lethal.

I suspect murder convictions lie in her future, unless she’s lying about her activities in order to sound like an “expert.”

Shelton rambles on in this fashion for some time (“An Introduction to Natural Hygiene”) before mentioning in passing that having a reaction to poison ivy is also “infection.”

OMG! Have we discovered Th1Th2’s secret identity?

OMG! Have we discovered Th1Th2’s secret identity?

No but yours is prominent.

“being called an infection-promoter by Th1Th2”

Frankly, I would consider that an honour.
Posted by: TBruce | May 30, 2011 5:14 PM

Emily:
“why are not my 4 kids sick with flu & other illnesses that their friends have?”
“Years ago our 3 kids all had measles, naturally acquired”

I’m not holding out much hope for truth-based arguments from someone who can’t keep straight how many kids she has.

One presumes that since the measles was “years ago,” child #4 could have been born more recently. I don’t think we have cause to conclude that Emily can’t keep her kids straight.

To T reg @ 318:

“Micro organisms have not only been detected in the lesions of infectious diseases – for most of the infectious diseases, there is a one on one relationship between the micro organism and the disease”.

Please come out of your laboratory into the real world, which is teeming with microorganisms. Your above quote is errant nonsense in the real world.Please explain why my family of three (3) children (it was a typo), ,& others, with no vacccine, living right next door to influenza- soaked people, talking to them in their house, have not become ill? Why so? If there is a one on one relationship between the m/o & the disease, what has happened in this situation?

Two years ago on a show called What’s Good For you? they set out to prove how “contagious ” the flu virus was. They deliberately exposed healthy people( by putting pus & sputum from infected & sick people into thier nasal & oral cavities, believe it or not)& waited. The problem for the germ phobic researchers was that too many of the healthy people remained so. Asked why, they said, they were probably immune. I loved that. Talk about a circular argument.

Virulence is not a real world term, it is a laboratory term. Lab’s are not the real world! It is a fact that the environment influences the microorganism, more than the m/o influences the environment. That’s why they mutate!

You seem to have missed my earlier point in a prievious blog – germs are not THE cause. The cause means no other factors are needed. M/O exist no doubt & play an associative role in many illnesses, but they are not THE cause. I ask again, why doesn’t my family ( & untold others)CATCH the flu?
In Canberra University, Australia, Professor Peter Collignon, Assoc Prof. of Infectious Diseases even stated publicly during the swine flu scare mongering 2 years ago, that the best way of getting swine flu was to get the swine flu jab!!!!

And for Krebiozen who stated that fasting for 31 days was dangerous. Please do more study & research on this subject, it possibly might save your life one day.

Two years ago on a show called What’s Good For you? they set out to prove how “contagious ” the flu virus was. They deliberately exposed healthy people( by putting pus & sputum from infected & sick people into thier nasal & oral cavities, believe it or not)& waited.

Ah, yes, the well-known and readily obtainable “flu pus.”

And for Krebiozen who stated that fasting for 31 days was dangerous. Please do more study & research on this subject, it possibly might save your life one day.

I suggest you do some more research on this, it might prevent you from being responsible for someone’s death some day.

Here’s some further reading for you.

Fasting causes blood sugar to drop. This leads to a breakdown (catabolism) of muscle and other protein tissue for energy. During fasting, catabolism is a kind of “self-cannibalism” the by-products of which (ammonia and urea) lead to acidosis that produces weakness, fatigue, irritability, depression, depressed libido, and a sick feeling. Fasting does not cleanse the system, but loads it with metabolic toxins while decreasing its ability to destroy and excrete these. Fasting leads to rapid loss of water, sodium, and potassium. This decreases blood volume which produces postural hypotension (low blood pressure when standing up), and fainting. Severe potassium depletion can cause a fatal heart rhythm disturbance. The body cannot differentiate between voluntary fasting and starvation and deaths have occurred even with medically supervised fasts and near-fasts. People who survive prolonged fasts (starvation) may suffer anemia, decreased immunity, osteoporosis, kidney damage, or liver damage. Depressed gastrointestinal or digestive functions may persist for weeks or months [v]. The worst thing about fasting is its destruction of lean and vital tissue needed for a healthy and active life. Fasting, like colonic irrigation, laxatives, sweat baths, and other naturopathic regimes are at best useless, and at worst, can be fatal. Fasting is particularly dangerous for children.

Sorry, I’ve been away. Did I miss emily telling us what type of “health” practitioner she is and who the unfortunates patients are that she sees?

emily: “I have seen numerous people with acute appendicitis fast (water-only) back to health with no drugs or surgery required.

I know what I know.I have piloted many of these people personally.”

What sort of Health Titanic does emily pilot?

Truly, it would be instructive to see emily and other modern-day germ theory denialists prove their views once and for all by volunteering to be inoculated with HIV, hepatitis C, Ebola virus and other harmless microorganisms which could not possibly initiate disease on their own in such sturdy folk. I look forward to seeing the study results published in Medical Hypotheses.

@ Emily “We were not concerned one little bit about *what serotype of measles virus was involved* or how we could lower their temp’s with med’s. The virus was to us, an accessory after the fact.”

Wow Emily, I am in awe of your superior research skills. I suggest that you publish your research findings…perhaps the new “serotype of measles” will be named after you..ie Rubeola emilyia.

The naming of the Lyme disease bacterium (Borrelia burgdorferi) and the naming of a shigella bacterium (Shigella flexneri) were “honors” bestowed on Willy Burdorfer and Simon Flexner.

* On the planet earth there is only measles serotype.

No doubt “What’s Good For You?” is indexed in PubMed.
I expect further citations of this type, perhaps to Tosh.O or Jackass.

All joking aside, you’re saying nothing surprising when you insist that not everyone exposed to the flu virus gets the flu. Individual susceptibility varies for many reasons. However, if you don’t believe that viruses cause disease, I suggest another TV-worthy experiment – get a transfusion of a unit of Hepatitis C infected blood. I’m sure someone as healthy as you would have no problem with that.

You seem to have missed my earlier point in a prievious blog – germs are not THE cause. The cause means no other factors are needed. M/O exist no doubt & play an associative role in many illnesses, but they are not THE cause.

Perhaps you’d just like to make clear whether “M/O” are “A cause,” because repeating “THE cause” would be kind of dishonest if they weren’t.

I suggest another TV-worthy experiment – get a transfusion of a unit of Hepatitis C infected blood. I’m sure someone as healthy as you would have no problem with that.

That could be written off as importing someone else’s Sheltonian “pus.” Better trial design is needed.

Oh, no! There is no Emily to tell us all about the “truth” according to Natural Hygiene on how in the USA measles morbidity declined by 90% between 1960 and 1970. Rats.

Emily’s comments make me wonder: I had chicken pox as a kid (despite being vaccinated), but eat far worse now, less exercise and don’t fast…. why did I get chicken pox when I was healthier, but not now when I’m an adult and worse off phsyically?

My guess is that her argument will boil down to a typical positive-thinking CAM thing of “you’re just not doing it right” or “negative energy affects the outcome”. Blah blah blah victim blaming, blah blah no proof.

I feel so sorry for your kids Emily. How many times will you starve them ‘for their own good’? And while they’re dealing with an illness too?

#342, Emily

Hilarious. According to you, microorganisms do not live in laboratories, only outside in the ‘real world’. *Roll eyes* Please explain how the scientists keep microorganisms from entering the labs.

In Canberra University, Australia, Professor Peter Collignon, Assoc Prof. of Infectious Diseases even stated publicly during the swine flu scare mongering 2 years ago, that the best way of getting swine flu was to get the swine flu jab!!!!

I live in Australia. We were one of the first countries to have people DIE from getting the flu before a vaccine could be created. Most of the people who all got sick (some of whom died) were the ones who did not have the vaccine. Once the vaccine was administered to a large group of people, very few people from then on got the flu. How do you account for that? Oh yes, you only believe the stuff posted by CAM proponents. You’re full of crap and misinformation.

And for Krebiozen who stated that fasting for 31 days was dangerous. Please do more study & research on this subject, it possibly might save your life one day.

If fasting is so good for us, why do we need to eat at all? Why do we need to eat daily? Why does the human race not just all suddenly decide that they’re not hungry after all and only eat once a week?

“If fasting is so good for us, why do we need to eat at all? Why do we need to eat daily? Why does the human race not just all suddenly decide that they’re not hungry after all and only eat once a week?”

In Emily’s universe, the starved prisoners in Germany’s and Japan’s prison camps gained superhuman powers from their lack of food, and thus were able to easily overcome their captors who suffered from the debilitating effects of daily eating…

In Canberra University, Australia, Professor Peter Collignon, Assoc Prof. of Infectious Diseases even stated publicly during the swine flu scare mongering 2 years ago, that the best way of getting swine flu was to get the swine flu jab!!!!

I would find that quote easier to believe if Prof. Collignon actually teaches at the University of Canberra. Someone who can’t get his university right is not my source of choice.

re Flip @ 351

Nonsense like that should not be dignified with an intelligent reply.

Emily:

Nonsense like that should not be dignified with an intelligent reply.

Perhaps you could demonstrate an intelligent reply to my question. Surely you’ve had enough time to do your research.

Exactly how did the rate of measles incidence in the USA drop by 90% between 1960 and 1970? Be sure that your answer is well documented.

@ Emily: After you answer Chris’ question…I’m interested in the different “serotype” of measles virus you referred to.

We await with bated breath, all agog to see what Emily will dignify with an intelligent reply.

@herr doktor bimler

Judging from emily’s non-response and general idiocy in her comments, we’ll be waiting for a long time.

OK, Emily, we’ll accapt that the number of children was a typo. Now, how do you square your statement that they never get sick with your later statement that they all came down with the measles? Oh, & we’re still waiting for an explanation of why so many of them have apparently had tonsils & appendices removed, when the first procedure is rare these days & the second isn’t exactly routine.

Sorry, the ‘them’ in my previous comment was intended to mean, Emily’s neighbour’s children, not,hers. (Note to self, ‘preview’ is your friend…)

1)@lilady 356: My serotype comment last week was obviously unsuccessful, because it was meant to highlight, in a slightly humorous way, that we are not concerned with the profile of any paticular virus. Similarly, does it really matter if the hemaglutenin & neuraminidase enzymes are 1 or 21 when helping limit the damage of influenza. We need to lift our level of health, not artificially lift our antibodies.

2) @ alison 359: If you read my previous posts correctly, you’ll see that our kids do get sick (very rarely), but never with the flu, despite living next to an influenza colony. And if you were interested, which you probably weren’t, you would have seen that I continually emphasise the 3 principles which are axiomatic in the biology of health & disease:
* the body is self-developing;
* the body is self-repairing;
* the body is self defending.

Neither allopathic voo or alt/med woo is needed MOST of the time, provided causes are removed & the conditions of health supplied.

Disease is just as natural as health, & is represented by symptoms & signs which themselves are reparatory in nature. They have survival value, just the same as fever. They are not to be suppressed as allopathic medicine does most of the time, but understood as “allies in disguise”. BTW, I am NOT advocating “watchful waiting”, which is a medical nonsense!

It so happens that where I live there is still a fairly high rate of unnecessary “cashectomies” on children (* & adults- cholecystectomies, thyroidectiomies, apendecectomies etc). Tragic!

@ Chris 355, my long suffering antagonist. You don’t seem to get it. I’m not impressed with the one fact that measles (or any illness) declined in a given time IF the only intervention was a drug or a vaccine. I can get rid of headaches with aspirin, or heavier pain killers, & there would obviously be no more measles, I mean headaches. I need to address the REAL causes. I would ask lots of other questions about the period 1960-1970 when measles morbidity declined. How many more middle ear infections were there at this time, tonsillitis cases, bronchitis cases, asthma, allergies etc?

It is a downright tragedy that the American people are being duped by big pharma’s seduction of medicine into believing that for every ill there is a pill (or a vaccine). Health comes about through healthy living, & if any of the sceptics out there in the Church of Modern Medicine are really interested in this subject, please let me know & we discuss this reasonably & intelligently.

Possibly Emily is unaware of what tonsillectomy and appendectomy actually are, and believes they routinely performed in well-baby visits?

@352 Thomas

Good point, I hadn’t thought of that.

@354 Emily

Perhaps you’d care to point out which bit was nonsense and refute it like a grown up: with citations and data.

Here’s a link for you:

2009 Flu pandemic in Australia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic_in_Australia

It’s wikipedia, but if you google for ‘swine flu deaths australia’, you’ll find a number of online news reports. First sentence of Wikipedia, “As of 21 October 2009, Australia has 36,991 confirmed cases of H1N1 Influenza 09 (Human Swine Influenza) and 186 confirmed deaths due to the disease”. There’s more info about how they controlled the flu as well, under “measures to control an outbreak”, which details the use of vaccines (and good hygiene). The article seems out of date, so googling is probably a good idea as well.

You could try refuting/discussing that, or you could answer my question about fasting. Pick something and discuss it properly; or else I’ll just assume you have no facts. My questions are legitimate, how is it nonsense to ask them? And my facts are legitimate, so how can it be nonsense to post them?

I honestly don’t understand how fasting would make things better, so enlighten me. That’s why you came here remember, to point us in the right direction?

I have a comment in moderation, but in the meantime:

Emily, just answer Chris. Dancing around it is just making you look like you’re unwilling to discuss tough topics.

Also, what were the ‘real causes’ of measles?

Health comes about through healthy living, & if any of the sceptics out there in the Church of Modern Medicine are really interested in this subject, please let me know & we discuss this reasonably & intelligently.

I’d like to, but you just told me you won’t dignify me with an answer. I’d love to know what proof you have that microorganisms just ‘stay away’ if I eat right. (Sorry, eat occasionally) I await your reasonable and intelligent reply – with citations please.

if any of the sceptics out there in the Church of Modern Medicine are really interested in this subject, please let me know & we discuss this reasonably & intelligently.

Reasonably and intelligently? Who will be representing you in the discussion?

(Sorry, cheap shot, but I couldn’t resist)

Emily:

@ Chris 355, my long suffering antagonist. You don’t seem to get it. I’m not impressed with the one fact that measles (or any illness) declined in a given time IF the only intervention was a drug or a vaccine…snip..I would ask lots of other questions about the period 1960-1970 when measles morbidity declined. How many more middle ear infections were there at this time, tonsillitis cases, bronchitis cases, asthma, allergies etc?

Just answer the question as it was asked. Though, I must admit, the contortions you are going through to avoid answering that very simple question are very amusing. You are definitely working hard to avoid giving an answer that would knock your whole dubious reality off its precarious perch.

@ Emily: I nailed you on your (non) knowledge of measles…you are now claiming it as a humorous comment.

“It so happens that where I live there is still a fairly high rate of unnecessary “cashectomies” on children (* & adults-*cholecystectomies*, **thyroidectiomies**, ***apendecectomies*** etc).
Tragic!”

Emily, try looking up:

*Gangrenous Gall Bladder

**Graves Disease, Thyroid Cancer

***Peritonitis

Please also provide information how the body heals “naturally” from gall bladder disease, Graves disease, thyroid cancer and a diseased appendix.

@ Emily:

Are people really “being duped by big pharma’s seduction of medicine into believing that for every ill there is a pill (or a vaccine)” or is it possible that pharmaceutical companies – being businesses who seek profit- are responding to popular demand for products? There is a *market* for these drugs. Was AZT developed to *harm* folks who were HIV+ or because there was demand- and patients were willing to take risks because of their own dire situations *without* drugs? Similarly, Vioxx for severe arthriitis.

Alt med providers often talk about the medical establishment “inventing illnesses” ( esp. in the realm of mental illness/learning disability) but is this not also a response to patient demand for assistance with symptoms that compromise their/their children’s quality of life?

Yesterday at ShotofProtection, Steve Michaels was whining about me be not asking about mortality because that has more variable associated with it. He is very upset with me, and he and someone else think it that calling me a meanie is a logical way to discuss the question.

Except I am not the one ignoring the costs of hospitalizations and rates of post-disease disability. It is not that I am forgetting about deaths, they are just ignoring the whole picture.

I have that question for a while. I have chosen it because I noticed places like childhealthsafety try to cloud the issue by focusing on deaths, and stretching the timeline back a century or more. They also try to muck up the data by including countries where the counting is not so clear (like Canada skipping a few years of case tabulation, and countries that did not start vaccinating until later). Then there was the ones who try to change the decade.

I actually started to use the census data because “backer” whined about only using data from 1950. He found more excuses when I destroyed that bit, plus complained about the use of “incidence” versus “deaths.” Oh, if you search that blog for “backer” and that data, you’ll see I asked him more than once. He never answered.

And neither has John Stone or “childhealthsafety.” My favorite comment (and I think it was on this blog) was John Stone telling us it would be better to treat measles rather than prevent it. Unfortunately, I cannot find it quickly.

So yes, Emily, that is a very specific question. So either answer it or just say “I don’t know.” Stop trying to claim you have superior knowledge when your closed mind refused to find an answer that takes most of us less than five minutes.

As someone has already pointed out, Natural Health (eek, is there UNnatural health?) how do you explain childhood illnesses? And how would you treat them? I am currently involved with a very young child (under 18 months) with severe second degree burns over her entire left leg. I guess in Emily’s world, she should be starved to heal the leg properly. Nice.

Just a reminder of what Emily’s first comment started with:

Let the truth be known. Vaccinations had very little, if anything, to do with the decline in infectious diseases over the past 100 years.

So she actually noted incidence, so she needs to prove her claim. And I am being nice, I am only asking for that proof for one disease.

So, Emily, stop making excuses. Explain how measles declined by 90% between 1960 and 1970 in the USA. Show us the actual documentation.

Explain how measles declined by 90% between 1960 and 1970 in the USA. Show us the actual documentation.

But, Chris, what about the people who aren’t afraid of the incidence of a moderate disease of childhood? What about the people who are concerned more with mortality or permanent sequelae?

Could you tell us how measles vaccines drastically reduced mortality between 1900-1950 so as to dwarf the number from the 1960’s forward?

Are vaccines totally necessary for every single person? Absolutely not. For any scientist to say so would be dishonest.

The data shows that only a small minority would need a vaccine to possibly, maybe, potentially prevent death.

The philosophy says give it to all. The science doesn’t.

Science taught men how to build an atomic bomb. Philosophy told them to drop it on the Japanese civilians.

Many people don’t share your philosophy. You forcing your belief system down peoples throats using government policy and politics through puppet science doesn’t endear you to your adversaries.

Disease is just as natural as health, & is represented by symptoms & signs which themselves are reparatory in nature.
I look forward to Emily’s explanation of the ‘reparatory’ nature of a ruptured appendix…

Augustine,

The data shows that only a small minority would need a vaccine to possibly, maybe, potentially prevent death.

I’m not sure I understand that statement. As I read it, your logic is that if only 2 children out of a thousand die (statistically) if they get the measles, then if we merely immunized those children we wouldn’t need to immunize anyone else. If that understanding is correct, then we need to know how you identify which 2 out of a thousand children will die.
According to the WHO, between 83% and 94% of the population needs to be immunized for measles in order to limit its spread. Do you disagree with these numbers, and if so, why? If you agree, how do you reconcile that with your statement above?

But, Chris, what about the people who aren’t afraid of the incidence of a moderate disease of childhood?

Once again, augie, I’ll ask you why you’re so frightened of a vaccine as opposed to a disease.

But, Chris, what about the people who aren’t afraid of the incidence of a moderate disease of childhood?

Unfortunately, this isn’t where Natural Hygiene is coming from, so this cry for attention is apropos of nothing.