It would appear that Dr. Bob Sears, author of The Vaccine Book, is in the news again. Specifically, he’s brought himself back into the spotlight by publishing in that wretched hive of scum and quackery, The Huffington Post, a fallacy-filled attack on a bill in California, AB 2109, designed to tighten up the process for obtaining philosophical exemptions from vaccination requirements for school entry and improving the process of informed consent for parents seeking such exemptions. In this, Dr. Sears has solidly aligned himself with the worst elements of the antivaccine movement. Sadly, it is not the first time he has done so. This time around, however, an interesting little sidelight has come up that has revealed just how disingenuous and deceptive Dr. Sears can be, as you will see. But here’s a little background, for those of you not familiar with Dr. Sears.
Pretty much anyone who has an interest in issues related to vaccines, particularly regarding the antivaccine movement, has probably heard of Dr. Bob Sears. The reason, of course, is that Dr. Sears (or “Dr. Bob,” as he likes to be called), is the author of a book touting an “alternative” vaccine schedule. His book, The Vaccine Book, is the bane of pediatricians everywhere practicing science-based medicine, because many vaccine-averse parents use it as a justification for “questioning” or otherwise refusing to follow currently recommended vaccine schedule. Dr. Bob likes to present himself as somehow being more reasonable, and less “extreme” than the “two sides” in the “vaccine debate.” For example, here is an excerpt from his book:
But now almost all parents have worries about vaccines. In the old days most parents simply followed their doctor’s advice and automatically got their children vaccinated. But today, virtually every parent has heard that there may be some side effects and problems with vaccines, and parents are asking questions. The problem is, no one is giving complete answers. Or rather, they are giving one-sided answers. Either your doctor is telling you that all vaccines are perfectly safe and you have nothing to worry about, or your neighbor is telling you all vaccines are evil and deadly and you are crazy to vaccinate. So you find yourself with many unanswered, or inadequately answered, questions. You don’t want your child to catch any serious illnesses, so you want to vaccinate. But you want to know what the potential risks and side effects are. You want to make an educated decision. That’s what this book is all about. It is my goal to give you a balanced look at the pros and cons of vaccination.
Notice how Dr. Bob places himself between what he incorrectly represents as “two extremes.” He’s not like those dogmatic antivaccinationists at all! Oh, no! He’s not like that crazy neighbor telling you that all vaccines are “evil and deadly.” But neither is he like that apparently dogmatic pediatrician who refuses to recognize any risks whatsoever from vaccines. Oh no! He’s far more reasonable. His is a “middle way,” threading the needle between loony antivaccinationism and rigid, authoritarian medicine touting “one size fits all” solutions for your–yes, your!–children and refusing to recognize that your child is a special little flower that requires “individualized” vaccination.
The problem, of course, is that pediatricians such as what he describes exist primarily in the fevered paranoid imaginings of the antivaccine movement. Worse, Dr. Bob uses the logical fallacy known as argumentum ad temperantiam, also known as middle ground, false compromise, gray fallacy and the golden mean fallacy. This fallacy implies that the positions being represented are extremes of a continuum of options, that such extremes are wrong, and that the “middle ground” must be correct. It’s a very seductive fallacy, because whenever people see arguments in which two seemingly extreme positions are presented, their first tendency is to look for compromise by “splitting the difference” and assuming that the correct answer is somewhere in the middle. Yet such is not always the case, particularly in matters of science. For instance, the correct scientific position is not somewhere between that of anthropogenic global warming denialists and everyone else or somewhere between what creationists claim and what evolutionists know from science. Likewise, the correct answer regarding vaccination is not somewhere in the middle, between the claims of antivaccinationists and what real scientists say about vaccination. Yet, that’s the game Dr. Bob plays, giving credence to discredited claims about vaccines promoted by the antivaccine movement. It’s not for nothing that Dr. Paul Offit and others consider Dr. Bob to be, if not antivaccine, at least flirting with the antivaccine movement.
All of this is why what Seth Mnookin writes about Dr. Bob is quite telling when he asks the question about Sears, Bob Sears: Bald-faced liar, devious dissembler, or both? In it, Mnookin reveals Dr. Bob’s version of the truth to be rather fluid regarding his involvement with “patient zero” for the measles outbreak that occurred in San Diego in 2008. The reason this came up is after Dr. Bob’s attack on AB 2109 because a commenter, in order to illustrate the consequences of not vaccinating and argue that Dr. Sears, either wittingly or unwittingly, promotes beliefs that have negative health consequences asked asking Dr. Bob about the patient believed to be responsible for the San Diego outbreak, using Seth Mnookin’s account in his book The Panic Virus as his source. This led Dr. Bob to respond:
I will set the record straight. I was NOT the pediatrician who saw the measles patient and let him sit in my office. As far as I know, that occured in a San Diego pediatrician’s office. I don’t know whose. I was not involved in that at all. I haven’t read Seth Minooken’s book, NOR have I ever even spoken with Seth. So I’ve no idea what he’s said about me in his book. I actually had no idea that any of you were even wondering about this. No one’s brought it to my attention before this. I heard something about some journalist writing a book about vaccines, but hadn’t bothered to read it.
In response, frequent commenter here lilady challenged him:
Really, Dr. Sears?
Is this the same Dr. Bob Sears who appeared on the Dr. Oz Show? How about commenting on this video (at 1:00 minutes into the Part 4 “What Causes Autism” Show), Dr. Sears. Dr. Ari Brown stated succinctly to you that she believed the young patients infected by measles were your patients.
http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/what-causes-autism-pt-4
You never “corrected” Dr. Brown and you quickly changed the subject. Why did you not deny that your patients were involved in the outbreak and…why did you change the topic, Dr. Sears?
We all await your explanation.
That explanation was:
Of course I remember the show, and her comment. BUT, she wasn’t accusing me of being the pediatrician that the measles patient went to see when he had measles and sat in his waiting room. She simply stated that that child was my patient (which is correct, but they didn’t come to see me during the measles illness). She was baiting me, and suggesting that the fact that that family had decided against the MMR vaccine long before they ever became my patients was MY fault. I wasn’t about to give her the satisfaction of acknowleding her comment.
What I was referring to by the statement “I had no idea” was that I never knew anyone, much less a supposedly respected reporter, was spreading the FALSE rumors that I was the pediatrician involved in the outbreak. I have simply been the family’s pediatrican over the years, but I practice far away from them, so they went to a local ped for THIS problem. Anyone who has written or suggested otherwise printing false information.
Talk about not owning up to one’s actions! Dr. Bob “empowers” and supports antivaccine parents in their decision not to vaccinated, and then he whines when it is pointed out that one of his unvaccinated patients was the nidus for a major measles outbreak.
All of this brings us to Seth Mnookin’s post from yesterday. Mnookin pointed out that Dr. Bob’s pandering to the antivaccine movement went so far as to advise “hiding in the herd” (i.e., taking advantage of herd immunity for measles) and, even worse, to say to parents hiding in the herd, “I also warn them not to share their fears with their neighbors, because if too many people avoid the MMR, we’ll likely see the diseases increase significantly.” In other words, Sears on the one hand excuses parents who do not vaccinated and on the other hand advises them to be parasites taking advantage of herd immunity provided by parents who were willing to take on the responsibility and risks of vaccination to protect their children at zero risk to their children and telling them not to encourage others to do the same because it would degrade herd immunity and eliminate the advantage of being a parasite!
In light of Dr. Bob’s advice, pointing out that Dr. Bob’s patient was probably the vector responsible for starting a measles outbreak in San Diego was a legitimate point. It serves to emphasize that Dr. Bob’s arguments have consequences. That’s why it’s a joy to see Mnookin take Dr. Sears down a peg or two by pointing out that Dr. Bob is either dissembling or lying:
Sears’s involvement with patient zero was not some sort of secret: It was also reported in a December 19, 2008 episode of This American Life, in the middle of an interview with Sears himself. (You can hear that part of the broadcast–“That’s Dr. Bob Sears. … Dr. Bob, as people call him, is also the doctor for the non-vaccinating family that went to Switzerland”–here. For people interested in the whole show, Sears comes in just before the the 34-minute mark.) It was also reported in Sears’s hometown newspaper, The Orange County Register. I wasn’t the first person to write about it, and I wasn’t the last-but for some reason, Sears has decided now is the time to speak out about this-and he’s doing so in the comments of his latest Huffington Post vaccine scare-mongering lunacy.
Mnookin also points out that Sears is attacking a straw man by railing against him for having allegedly allowed the child with measles to sit in his waiting room with other children. Neither Mnookin, any of the commenters in HuffPo, nor anyone else accused Dr. Sears of that. They merely pointed out that it’s been widely reported, and apparently acknowledged by Dr. Sears himself, that patient zero for the San Diego measles outbreak was a non-vaccinating patient of Dr. Sears. That’s it. It was Dr. Bob who either jumped to the conclusion or disingenuously attacked a straw man that he was being accused of having let a child with measles spread the disease to his other patients. He wasn’t.
One wonders if Dr. Bob has a bit of a guilty conscience. In fact, the final bit of his most recent comment sure does sound that way. One of Dr. Bob’s arguments agains AB 2109 was that doctors would refuse to sign the form. He uses the mention of his non-vaccinating patient who sparked a measles outbreak as a cue to rant (and I do mean rant):
PLUS, I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU, AND SOME OF THE OTHER NEGATIVE COMMENTORS TO MY BLOG, FOR HELPING TO PROVE MY POINT. It seems that when a doctor’s patient chooses not to vaccinate, then catches one of the diseases, IT BECOMES THE DOCTOR’S FAULT? SO, WHY WOULD DOCTORS TAKE FURTHER RESPONSIBILITY AND LIABILITY FOR THEIR PATIENTS’ DECISION AND SIGN THEIR NAME TO THE EXEMPTION FORM? That’s my point; I appreciate you furthering my cause against AB2109.
It’s rather amusing how, when challenged, Dr. Sears reverts to writing like one of my more wingnutty commenters, complete with lots of ALL CAPS. Here’s a hint to Dr. Sears: Although the (very) occasional word or phrase in ALL CAPS can be used effectively to add emphasis, it’s a tool that needs to be used very sparingly. To do otherwise is to look like a ranting loon, which is what Dr. Bob looks like above. There’s a reason why one of the Flame Warriors is referred to as ALL CAPS and it is pointed out that ALL CAPS is the Internet equivalent of shouting, in which “from a tactical point of view, too much shouting alerts other Warriors to the opponent’s verbal WEAKNESS and emotional EXCITABILITY.”
Be that as it may, it would appear that Dr. Sears is a coward as well in that he doesn’t have the strength of his own convictions. Think about it. He advises parents who refuse the MMR not to tell others about it so as not to degrade herd immunity. If he really believed that the MMR is not safe enough, then why on earth would he not trumpet it to the world and advise the parents of his patients to do the same? He “supports” parents who don’t vaccinate; yet he says he won’t sign simple forms for them confirming that he has counseled them about the risks and benefits of vaccines. That’s all that AB 2109 asks him to do; yet he blames fear of liability for his decision. I have one question: Has any physician in this country ever been successfully sued for malpractice after one of his patient suffered from a vaccine-preventable disease on the basis that he supported the decision of the parents not to vaccinate or advised them not to? I’m certainly not aware of one. Truly, it bears repeating: Dr. Sears doesn’t have the strength of his convictions.
Unfortunately, Dr. Bob joins the list of pediatricians who have found fame, validation, and a bit of lucre pandering to the antivaccine movement. Like many of them, he does not see himself as being antivaccine, and maybe he isn’t, at least not the way luminaries of the antivaccine movement such as Barbara Loe Fisher, J.B. Handley, Sallie Bernard, Andrew Wakefield, and the like are antivaccine. He does, however, give credence to their views and, by using false balance to present fears about vaccines based on pseudoscience, making him very much a part of the problem.
372 replies on “Dr. Bob Sears vs. Seth Mnookin: Measles outbreaks, AB 2109, and lacking the courage of one’s convictions”
Quoth Dr. Sears:
Once they did become his patients, he presumably reviewed the child’s medical history, saw that the child wasn’t vaccinated against measles, and then advise them to get him the measles vaccine. Or can MMR only be administered while the child is in a certain range of ages, and the child became a patient once that age range had passed?
The truth usually lies somewhere between between the extremes, but between usually means much closer to one end than the other.
Perhaps Sears sounds like a wingnut because he is one. He is just a smooth talking wingnut with a following.
On the Dr Oz video, Dr Ari Brown was merely describing the scenario where an unvaccinated patient with measles had infected other vulnerable patients in a doctor’s waiting romm, and added that she thought these were “Dr Bob’s patients”.
That’s hardly “baiting” – it was the expression of an opinion which Dr Bob could easily have corrected there and then if it was wrong, yet he chose to quickly change the subject when given the immediate opporunity to refute the claim.
Dr Bob’s prevarication on Huffpo in response to Lilady if anything makes his explanation less credible, and his responses to Seth Mnookin reveal him to be either dishonest, or to have an appallingly bad memory. Which is more likely, I wonder?
As Orac says, Dr Bob displays rank cowardice for not being able to admit his advice has consequences.
At least with the regular anti-vax nutters, oops, I mean ‘pro-safe vaccine’ nutters you can admire the resolve that they have, as delusional as it is. This guy changes his mind more than Tony Abbott. (Sorry for the Aussie Political Reference, I’m sure someone will appreciate it!
If Dr. Bob was a serious pediatrician, I wonder if he counseled (the family travelling to Switzerland – knowing the kids were vaccinated) that they may want to go ahead & get the MMR, due to the prevelance of measles in that country?
If he isn’t “anti-vaccine” and the kids were obviously older, and given his own “public” opinion that vaccines are okay, just on an alternate schedule, why wouldn’t he do his job and make that recommendation?
Here’s where the rubber meets the road – and where his problem lies, too many of his supporters are 100% anti-vaccine & jump down his throat when he says anything that isn’t the “party line” against vaccines.
This is the same problem you find at AoA – they can’t say a single good thing about vaccines (not even when confronted with rabies), because too many of their supporters are invested in the “vaccines are 100% evil.”
It does back them into a corner & makes them appear that much loonier, in the face of reasonable arguments.
Oops – that should have read “kids weren’t vaccinated.”
Certainly in the UK you can have the MMR vaccine at any age. My husband just had it, because we weren’t sure he actually had full protection from all three diseases (when we were kids MMR didn’t exist) and he travels a lot in Europe for work.
Anyway…
“Mnookin pointed out that Dr. Bob’s pandering to the antivaccine movement went so far as to advise “hiding in the herd” (i.e., taking advantage of herd immunity for measles) and, even worse, to say to parents hiding in the herd, “I also warn them not to share their fears with their neighbors, because if too many people avoid the MMR, we’ll likely see the diseases increase significantly.”
This is a morally disgraceful and disgusting attitude to see from a qualified doctor.
Emphasis mine. I did accuse him of that and he knows that I did but he’s afraid to utter my name. When Dr. Brown stated she thought that children involved in that outbreak were his patients and he acknowledged that, it wasn’t a stretch to assume that the transmission occurred in his waiting room. In fact, given his evasion on the subject until continually pressed and his blatant lie about not knowing who Seth Mnookin is and his contact with him, I’m not convinced the transmission didn’t occur in his waiting room.
@Lawrence:
It seems unlikely that he did, since if he did do that he would have said “I recommended that they get their kid the MMR vaccine, but they ignored my recommendation”. Unless that would be a violation of HIPAA? But presumably him revealing that the child wasn’t vaccinated against measles when the family became his patients didn’t violate HIPAA, so I don’t think that would be a violation either.
ScienceMom @8 — Notice that Sears misspelled Mnookin’s name (“Minookin”) in his comment on HP. This could be an innocent typo, but it’s also possible that he did it deliberately to bolster his claim that he didn’t know who Mnookin was.
I wonder if Seth Mnookin is starting to undeerstand better why many are not so keen on his “building bridges” attempts with the wackaloons.
Howe do reach out to folks who are so bloody slimey and dishonest? It’s not like Dr Bob is unusual in that regard.
@ palindrom, I would chalk it up to sloppiness; Bob isn’t the sharpest tool in the shed for reasons in addition to poor grammar and spelling. He knows damn well that I wrote about the index case being in his waiting room but that and his lie about knowing who Seth Mnookin is is his refusal to acknowledge any criticism. He’s tried to go head to head with me and has failed miserably, showing his ignorance of all of the scientific disciplines he blathers about in his vaccine books and articles. He knows he is out of his league so instead ignores challenges and hopes they will just go away.
@palindrom,
Edging a wee bit close to conspiracy there with the Mnookin/Minookin thing. Sears has shown well enough that he is quite capable of lying when it suits him and instructing his patients to, in effect, do the same.
I would believe typo and lies and leave it at that. There is so much more fundamental crap to aim at with Sears.
My daughter had 3 pedatricians in the first practice we took her to, and then we moved to another state where she sees 2 pediatricians in one practice. Out of the 5, 4 pediatricians have told us that vaccines are completely safe and risk-free. This was the last actual quote: “Other than a little soreness at the site of injection, there just aren’t any risks with vaccines. Not at all.” One of them did discuss risks with me and he felt the benefits clearly outweighed the risks, which I think is reasonable. I read Dr. Sears’ book and it helped me make my decision to get all the vaccines. I ignored that idea of getting them one at a time, because that seems silly (don’t we all get exposed to multiple germs most any day? I never understood why that is supposed to be dangerous). I wish that the pro-vaccine scientists would stop claiming that only idiots say there are no risks to vaccines. The pediatricians say that, and it’s reasonable for a parent to trust their doctor and believe it. If they were honest about the concept of risks being outweighed by benefits, I think parents could understand that and would stop having the expectation that vaccines should be risk-free.
Jennifer,
You are correct of course that the peds should be more upfront but there is a risk with that as I’m sure our commenting peds will attest.
If you give most people the idea that there is a very small risk, an infinitesimally small risk, you raise their alert status and then have to spend time explaining what small is and there is usually no time in today’s modern practices to do that effectively. The risk approaches zero and the benefits are enormous. I guess 4 out of 5 peds interpret that for their patients as zero risk for high benefit.
Jennifer – every time my kids have been in for vaccination, we have been given information sheets about the vaccines they were given, which included a discussion of the risks involved. Heck, ours even included the incidence rates for all the side effects.
Didn’t you get something like that?
I must say, Dr. Sears is definitely not the “sharpest tool in the shed”. I met him several years ago and he seemed to be quite feeble minded. In fact, his wife, Martha Sears, was always behind him, whispering into his ear to keep him focused. I think Dr. Bob is just the figure head to the Sears dynasty which includes his wife and son, who appears on “The Doctors” TV show.
Marcia – don’t forget his dad, Dr Bill Sears, who made a big name for himself back in the 70s with breastfeeding advocacy. Bob is trying to live up to that, but just doesn’t have the insight of his dad.
What’s his son like? I knew there was a Sears on the Doctors, but didn’t know it was Bob’s son.
OMG, Mindy, you’re right!! I was thinking of Bill! Is Bob the one on the Drs.??
Michael Hughes – I got the reference and it is accurate – the mad monk reminds me a bit of the classic anti-sciencer. Worrying really as he was once the Minister for Health.
Let’s not forget.
And according to this guy, herd immunity is…
Notice how this bozo applies herd immunity to vaccination only. This guy really need some serious whipping.
No, Bob is not on the Drs as far as I am aware. It COULD be Bob’s son, but I don’t know.
But *tertium non datur*, Dr Bob!
We have to remember though that Dr Bob is covering himself because there is always the possiblity of a legal suit now or from a future case. I wonder what he believes in his heart of hearts if he questions the safety of vaccines _enough_ that he doesn’t inform patients about their benefits: I imagine that he doesn’t accept the mountains of evidence that led medical associations and most other scientists to accept the schedule, indeed it sounds as if he must be questioning the scientific method itself- he just can’t *say so* ( because he’s covering his a-s). Like Janus, he turns one face to his adoring fan base and another to the world of videotape and written records.
On the other hand, anti-vaxxers who don’t have his worries can out their innermost rabble-rousing disease promoter. Mike Adams, Loe Fisher or Blaxill-Olmstead aren’t going to be sued for their so-called instructional material on their websites or their rants that influence public opinion- it couldn’t be traced unless one of them specifically marketted a supplement that claimed it would eliminate the need for vaccines by jumpstarting immunity et al which they *almost* do … And while woo-meisters create and hawk products they similarly cover their a-ses with the ‘Quack Miranda’ and other fine print legalese.
I just couldn’t *resist* posing questions to Dr. Bob at Ho-Po, again…still in “moderation”.
According to Dr. Sears, only the index case was his patient. I asked Dr. Sears to clarify if his one patient’s two siblings, who were infected, by the index case, were also his patients.
I prefaced my second question with the phrase “…you owe it to your patients and your readers here…” to explain why you were *mistaken* about the contact you and your office staff with Seth Mnookin.
Also, I asked him not to reply in “all caps”, because it is undignified and not professional.
See, my *slumming* at the Ho-Po and at the AoA, really are *worthy* activities.
You have to give Dr. Bob some credit, unlike Jake and the Neverwrong writers at AoA he at least engages negative comments instead of just deleting them.
Interesting how he jumps so quickly to trying to deflect blame. I mean, he is their doctor, ostensibly, so if he permitted them to remain unvaccinated without significant challenge (and I think that is very likely to be the case), doesn’t he at least share some of the responsibility? He has a duty to uphold the standard of care, although it seems like in this case, he is ideologically incapable of doing so. (If anyone wants to point me to direct evidence of his advocating vaccines to his patients, they’re welcome, but I’m not going to stand on one foot.)
IANAD, but ethically, he seems like he’s on shaky ground, and, judging by how defensive he is, he knows it, too.
If Orac was only a … [insert ambition]
@MikeMa
Exactly. It’s like how people are more afraid of plane crashes than car accidents – for some reason, a smaller risk of something bad happening sets off more alarm bells in our brains than a larger one.
I think it’s also a sort of backlash to the antivax movement – like, you’ve got these people who take every single risk, real or imagined, and blow it way out of proportion, so it’s easy to see why you’d want to avoid ‘throwing them a bone’.
For your listening pleasure:
Sears appeared on the Gary Null Show ( I do recall at least one nausea-inducing comment he made about statistical acumen of the show’s host): of course all of this balderdash is lovingly archived at Progressive Radio Network- and probably 6 other places – I found: Nov 19,2009.
@ lilady:
While I applaud your slumming activities, might I make a few suggestions?:
make sure that you have really good boots as you’ll be wading through great loads of crap and other detritus,
watch *where* you post – i.e. avoid the most adamant anti-SBM- you wouldn’t want your e-mail et al around-( ways to circumvent that or so I’m told- *ahem*!) be careful because some might track your RL identity. You don’t want that ( e.g. Ren, Lee, Todd et al)
“In light of Dr. Bob’s advice, pointing out that Dr. Bob’s patient was probably the vector responsible for starting a measles outbreak in San Diego was a legitimate point. It serves to emphasize that Dr. Bob’s arguments have consequences.”
Orac, Dr. Bob’s patient WAS the vector, for starting a measles outbreak in San Diego.
Here is the MMWR report about the 12 case measles outbreak:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5708a3.htm
I seem to recall, but can’t say for certain (perhaps Science Mom or Catherina could help) that Dr. Bob has admitted in writing that his altered schedule has no scientific basis. Can anyone confirm that (get a screen capture, if it’s still around)?
I am disgusted by the craven, money-grubbing attitude of Dr. Bob Sears, he of the fearmongering anti-vaccien book and the baby slings and whatever else he wants to attach his family’s famous name to. He’s what all the folks who delay vaccines for no reason around here quote to back up their arguments. He also “consults” on a variety of baby food products, including my daughter’s favorite cereal puffs and yogurts. I would like to avoid buyign them because it would put more money in this horrible man’s pockets, but they’re the only brand she’lll eat.
Marry Me, Mindy, I agree with you. Unlike Jennifer, every single time my daughter got a shot, they gave us sheets listing all the side effects of various vaccines and then made us sign a form saying we’d read the sheet. When she got the MMR and varicella, the doctor also talked to us about the likelihood of her getting a rash afterwards.
The rash was the worst side effect she ever had from a vaccine, aside from a little soreness at the injection sites.
Let’s see how will SBM fare against common sense.
Yet…
I call that an iatrogenic measles transmission. Common sense wins!
@lilady
An interesting quote from that MMWR report, emphasis mine:
I second Denice’s advice on where to post. As for me, the cat is out of the bag. If someone doesn’t know where I’m coming from and what I do for a living, it’s because they’re not trying hard enough. Except for the lab. That one no one is going to figure out no matter how hard they try. Maybe. Or my other job, too. Or the fourth one that I have “seasonally”, if you know what I mean.
@Todd W.
I remember such an admission but IIRC it was from Dr Jay, not Sears. He may also have said as much of course…
Well, as far as we know, Jennifer also got those sheets. She was just relaying what the doctors said.
I definitely have those sheets in my kids’ immunization records.
I am seeing articles in the news recently that the CDC is warning those traveling to the Olympics in London about measles. Dr. Bob and Dr. Jay must have clients who will be attending the Summer Games. Will they recommend the MMR for those families?
@Chris – it does beg the question, and I too, would be interested to see what either (or both) Dr. J & Dr. B would say when asked.
Bill of the Baby Book fame is husband of Martha and dad of (and practises with)
Bob (the “alternative scheduler”)
Jim (is a doctor and plays one on TV)
and of Pete, who runs his own doctors practise and seems to keep out of the vaccine discussion
and 5 further kids, at least one of whom also sells Juice Plus…
Why has the loquacious lilady suddenly become mute? Where is this “isolation protocol” for measles that she brags all the time? Oh here it is….in your face!
So Dr. Bob & Dr. Jay are both in California – why am I not surprised.
Silly Orac.
There is no responsibility to vaccinate to ensure one does not catch an illness then have others catch it from him or her. As such, whether Dr. Sears had anything to do with the “index case” (ooohhh, scary) is of no import.
It is worth reviewing the MMWR report of the measles outbreak, as alluded to above.
Dr Bob has apparently accepted that the index patient was one of his own patients. That said, and unless the CDC are lying, then Dr Bob did have the patient in his waiting room where onward transmission occurred. All onward transmissions can reliably be laid at his door.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5708a3.htm
@Thingy troll:
One has to actually suspect measles before one can isolate a patient with it.
Dr Bob, despite his vast experience of vaccination-preventable diseases (he must see quite a few, seeing as how he persuades parents to forgo vaccination), seems to have somehow misplaid what should have been a very low index of suspicion for measles in this patient (Not vaccinated against measles…Check; Recent travel to a country rife with measles…Check; Characteristic rash….Check). He completely missed the measles diagnosis, thinking it was scarlet fever.
Way to go Dr Bob!
@ Ren:
While I use two of my four real names, I deliberately chose my ‘nym so that any ‘seekers’ might run into some very interesting ladies who live all over the English-speaking world and do rather interesting work- even involving trade and fraud.
Thus, I can speak my mind freely through layers of smokescreen and do my part. Without worrying about some pain-in-the-a-s private eye wannabe ringing at my door.
The patient stayed longer in the hospital without any isolation.
Idiot! You don’t work in the setting so STFU! lilady knows, she’s quiet.
Cough, coryza and conjuctivitis? How could anyone miss the measles triad, especially in an unvaccinated patient? Remember and don’t forget this pretender, measles is a clinical diagnosis.
Has anyone missed me while I was offline?
Here is the classic SFB Troll posting about “Its hospital experience” and about isolating a suspect measles case patient in a hospital. Kudos to Todd W. for posing the question at the SFB Troll and for persistence:
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2011/07/joe_mercola_plays_the_religion_card_agai.php
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Todd W.,
Ah, so before you enter any room, you wait outside until at least two hours has passed since anyone went in? You mean you aren’t actually looking for “red flags, signs and symptoms” like you said earlier? You’re just waiting for hours before entering any enclosed space and running out if someone that might be infected comes in. Got it.
Hahaha. Because you’re too dumb to realize that I have already answered that question that I have to doubt that it will be measles because of your lack of evidence. But instead, you shifted to being obtuse by extrapolating red flags, signs and symptoms to the fantasy “room”, the timer clock I used as an example is to verify that you don’t really care about who went into that room at an earlier time.
No, I don’t use any timer because I don’t need to. We only use that in the hospital for terminal disinfection of the room previously occupied by a known infectious patient.
Seems a pretty paranoid and time consuming way to live one’s life, but hey, if it works for you…
No you’re the one who is being paranoid. Again practice what you believe. Where’s your timer?
Posted by: Th1Th2 | July 14, 2011 11:42 AM
WHAT HOSPITAL SFB THINGY TROLL?
WHAT JOB IN WHAT HOSPITAL SFB THINGY TROLL
Time to “terminally disinfect” delusional, ignorant, disease-promoting, health-care-professional-wannabe SFB Troll.
Ignore insane troll – it is just fishing for attention….
No one has any ethical responsibility to avoid from placing others at risk by their actions or inaction–that’s really your position?
Is this a general principle or one you’re narrowly applying to imunization? Does one actually have an ethical responsibility to operate a motor vehicle in such a way that you’d don’t willfully put other drivers at risk, or can one freely drive, at night, northbound in the southbound lanes on an interstate, with headlights and running lights off without responsibility for your choice not to obey the rules of the road?
Catherina is right. Bill Sears is the author of the The Baby Book, a big promoter of breastfeeding and the individual (along with his wife) who coined the term “attachment parenting.
Three of his sons are also doctors: Bob, Pete and Jim. They are all listed as coauthors on his book The Portable Pediatrician (not to be confused with Dr. Laura Nathanson’s book of the same name). Jim and Bob are listed as coauthors on the latest edition of The Baby Book. Jim is the one on the Doctors, I think.
In addition to the numerous books on overlapping subjects (each book often refers you to yet another of their books), the Sears have really learned how to make money off their name through product endorsements, nutritional supplements, etc. Check out all their products in their store at askdrsears.com. They have their name on everything from baby carriers, to baby lotion, to cups, plates and spoons, etc. It is over the top to mean. They are a brand, and not just authors.
How about this lilady, why don’t you write them up, I mean find that children’s hospital and call their attention for their embarrassing negligence.
Now it’s time for you to be useful once in a while.
Please ignore SFB Thingdong; it’s more interesting watching her bark at the moon and comments don’t go on forever feeding this troll.
My latest comment, directed at Dr. Bob, finally made it through moderation at the Ho-Po:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-bob-sears/california-vaccination-bill_b_1355370.html
JGC, it’s difficult for me to understand how you and or your compatriots continue to bring up such bad analogies. When you drive you are ACTING. As such you cannot act in such a way as to put others at risk. Reckless driving (you actually have a car) is not permissible. Not getting a vaccine is a non-action. Not vaccinating puts no one at risk since the the bugs are out there already – if they weren’t you could not catch anything. The only time you have a responsibility is when you know you have an illness.
No one has any ethical responsibility to avoid from placing others at risk by their actions or inaction–that’s really your position?
YES, that’s REALLY my position. Actions are circumscribed when they violate the rights of others, not solely because they might put someone at risk. After all, even safe driving puts others at some degree of risk.
Marry Me, Mindy–
They do have those CDC vaccine info sheets at my daughter’s pediatricians office. They don’t give them out automatically, but they do dig them out when I ask–it was always the medical assistant who got them out for me, and I don’t really feel like whipping it out to confront the pediatricians or anything…
I respect and like her two doctors and it may be true what someone said about how they feel that saying “no risk” is more or less accurate as far as not wanting parents to get overworried about small risks. And of course, they are in such a hurry! The one pediatrician at our old home who discussed the risks always spent 20 minutes or more answering our questions, but most doctors seem to want to spend no more than 5 minutes in the room, and that’s for the whole well-child check. I think it would take more than 5 minutes to just discuss the cobcept of risks and benefits and convey how rarely the risks happen. I feel like the whole vaccine debate is so polarized. Some of my friends and relatives think I’m insane for vaccinating but most do vaccinate. And one does that Dr. Sears idea of making her poor kid get every shot separately all spread apart. One of my relatives sent me a link to a site claiming the smallpox vaccine had been ineffective! WTF? But I feel like the pro-vaccine people can seem just as wacko. One site claimed that if your healthy child in the U.S. gets measles, the risk of death is equivalent to that of a child who’s a refugee under age 5 with vitamin A deficiency, but that’s in no way true. Some claim that before the measles vaccine parents didn’t feel attached to their children until after they’d had the measles, and I know that’s not true either (not for my 4 grandparents anyway!).
That’s a pathognomonic RI disease.
I see Robert is still at odds with an epidemiological term. I’m not surprised. He probably gets all sorts of bothered when someone uses “pachyderm” instead of “elephant”. Silly, silly, Bob. It must be horrible to live angered at big words all the time.
lilady knows. She won’t attack her own ignorance.
Sid, people are acting when they don’t vaccinate: They walk, they eat, they breathe, and they incubate viruses.
Dyslexic Gray,
People who remained unvaccinated and uninfected do NOT incubate viruses they don’t have.
Don’t bother with Th1Th2, she is still unaware that it’s possible for infections to exist outside of vaccination. She actually admitted on multiple occasions that it is possible for an infection to have no symptoms, but still believes she can simply identify all infected people on sight. Simply put, she cannot form the most basic of logical connections, that a small child or a cat probably could.
Meaningless sophistry. Being a “non-action” doesn’t absolve you in any way. And not vaccinating does increase the risk of others catching the disease, so the second quoted sentence is Not Even Wrong.
(really, I’d hoped for something other than a drunken freshman semantic argument.)
When you choose not to confrom with recommended childhood immunization you’re also acting.
Why not? According to you if I ‘actually have a child’ I have no responsibility if I place others at risk by failing to comply with the recommended immunization schedule. Why then if I “actually have a car” should I have any responsibility for placing others at risk by failing to comply with established rules of the road?
Two things. First, this is false: electing not to comply with and/or applying to have one’s child exempted from routine immunization is itself an action.
Second, why in the first place are you presuming that one has no responsibility for harm done to others as the result of inaction, but only as the result of action? If I run you down in that actual car am I off the hook if I explain it wasn’t an act of running you down but rather inaction re: hitting the brakes?
False statement again: not vaccinating places others at risk–those who for other reasons including age, immunodeficiency, allergies to components in the vaccine, etc.–by compromising herd immunity and by the act of choosing to remain a potential vector for transmission of those “bugs that are out there already”.
So if I owned and operated a hotel I’d have no responsibility to install fire alarms, overhead sprinklers, emergency lighting, fire doors, extinguishers,etc. or to inspect them regularly to ensure they were working properly, except when the building was actually on fire? (This is your field, i believe–is that what you were taught?)
What right, exactly, would I violate by driving the wrong way at night with no headlights or running lights on, at 90 mph on a major interstate? I mean, since it has nothing at all to do with the fact that that I’m placing others at risk of injury or death as a consequence…right?
But not driving safely doesn’t violate their rights–agreed? Therefore I have no responsibility to drive safely, even if I have an ‘actual car’–agreed? And since it doesn’t violate their rights, only places them at risk, your initial distinction between actions and inactions is meaningless–agreed?
Don’t feed trollboy. The second you respond he goes ape with more garbage. It is more fun to pretend it is not here and as they say “howl at the moon”
Here coochie coochie….
I thought Gray was just dyslexic. I was wrong. He’s a dyslexic n00b.
One of the things that vexed me the most about Dr. Bob’s post is the endorsement of NVIC, at both the Mothering article & the HuffPo article.
NVIC is anti-vaccine to the bone. See latest post from Reuben at The Poxes, NVIC “Information”, Exhibit A.
@Sid
While the safe/reckless driving analogy does involve action, rather than inaction, the point of the analogy is the choice being made. If you prefer, then there is the seat belt analogy, which I’m sure you don’t care much for.
Wearing a seat belt is an action. Not wearing a seat belt is inaction. Wearing a seat belt reduces your risk of injury in an accident. Not wearing a seat belt increases your risk (or, rather, keeps it at a high baseline) of injury in an accident. Wearing a seat belt reduces the risk of injury to others (i.e., your body does not become a projectile that can harm someone else). Not wearing a seat belt increase the risk of injury to others. Wearing a seat belt carries a small risk of injury (e.g., lacerated abdomen or strangulation). Not wearing a seat belt carries no risk beyond those already mention.
Now, apply that to vaccines. Getting vaccinated is an action. Not getting vaccinated is an inaction. Getting vaccinated reduces your risk of infection and, thus, injury from a disease. Not getting vaccinated increases your risk (or maintains a high baseline) of infection and injury (or death) from disease. Getting vaccinated reduces the risk of passing infection on to, and thus harming, other people. Not getting vaccinated increases the risk of passing infection on to, and thus harming, other people (a risk that is certainly much higher than the equivalent argument with seat belts). Getting vaccinated carries a small risk of minor reactions (e.g., local pain or swelling) and a much, much smaller risk of serious reaction (e.g., anaphylaxis). Not getting vaccinated carries no risk beyond those already identified above.
In the end balance, getting vaccinated, just like wearing a seat belt, is an action that improves your own chances of a good outcome as well as improving the potential outcomes of others. Inaction in either case results in an increased overall risk to both self and others.
Now, using your logic, you have absolutely no ethical responsibility to buckle up, even though, by your inaction, you are increasing the risk to others because you become a potential projectile. Similarly, if you do not vaccinate, then you become a potential vector of disease transmission that otherwise would not exist.
In short, you’re a self-centered, morally and ethically bankrupt, dimwitted loon who couldn’t philosophize his way out of a wet, rice-paper sack.
Talk about not isolating an infectious measles patient. GTFOH!
By not having the infectious agent will increase the risk of others catching the disease how?
Todd – I was about to dismiss your comment as tl;dr, so I appreciate that you summarized it conveniently such that I didn’t have to read it.
Following the line of reasoning which puts the index case in Sears’ waiting room / office and where other patients in that environment were subsequently infected, what liability does Sears have with respect to:
A) Index case received bad medical advice relative to immunization
B) Subsequent infections were liable to Sears’ negligence
C) Subsequently infected victims also received bad medical advice relative to immunization
Can he be successfully sued?
Can he be sanctioned by a medical board?
Lying in public is almost commonplace but for someone to do so to cover his medical ass ought to have some penalty surely.
From “Dr. Bob”:
“Dr. Bob” seems to think that doctors – apart from himself and another “Dr. First Name” that I’ll not name – tell their patients that vaccines are “perfectly safe”. Strange that our paediatrician gives us a full page of warnings and possible complications to sign before every jab. Even my internist does that. It seems to contradict the reassurances of “perfect safety” that “Dr. Bob” seems to think are part of routine care.
Leaving that aside, we also have to consider that – given the “serious complication” rate of the MMR vaccine – usually cited as “less than 1 per ten million” – that in the US population (currently a bit over 300 million) that would mean no more than 30 people among those currently alive would have had a serious complication from the MMR jab. If you want to be extra fastidious and point out that there are two jabs in the MMR series, that climbs to 60.
There are currently (as of the 2010 census) about 74 million people under the age of 18 (i.e. the population generally seen in a paediatrician’s office) in the US, so we could expect to see no more that 15 (worst case) MMR complications in that population.
Taking this a bit further, let’s imagine that an insanely busy paediatric practise could have no more than 8000 individual patients (seeing one unique patient every 15 minutes, 8 hours a day, five days a week, fifty weeks a year), so the annual chance (assuming each patient is seen only once) of seeing an serious MMR complication would be 0.0008 (0.08%), so even after “thirty years of clinical experience” in such an unreasonably busy practise, a doctor’s chance of seeing a single case of serious MMR complication would be less than 2.5%.
On the other hand, there were 213 cases of measles last year (2011), which is the highest number in the past five years (including the 2008 outbreak year). It could be that “Dr. Bob” was wrong about the ability to “hide in the herd”.
Especially if you’re a patient of his.
Prometheus
Todd has made me think of that Darwin award winner who wrote a letter saying he’d never buckle up, and was later killed in an accident that everyone else in the car survived because they were wearing seat belts.
In other words, a typical American (or Canadian) libertarian.
I read The Vaccine Book cover to cover when my oldest child (now five years old) was a baby. She was vaccinated on the delayed schedule.
What I ended up with through her early years was a toddler with rotavirus, a two-year-old with chicken pox, a terrified three-year-old who needed 2-3 shots at every pediatrician visit to “catch up” on vaccines skipped when she was an infant, having to lie and claim a religious exemption in order to enroll her in preschool, and finally, a commitment to vaccinate any future children according to schedule. After three years of catching up, she is now fully vaccinated.
My struggles with my daughter’s vaccination schedule showed me that *I* am not the expert, and neither is Dr. Sears. And when my second child developed severe asthma as an infant, I was beyond relieved to know that thanks to following the CDC vaccine schedule, he was protected from Hib, pertussis, influenza, etc., any of which could have been disastrous for a child with respiratory problems. I breathed a sigh of relief when he was finally old enough to get the MMR and varicella vaccines at one year old.
Sid seems to think that choosing not to act means that the risk to others is not increased. Here are more examples to the contrary:
Someone is being punched repeatedly. Choosing not to intervene increases the victim’s risk of continued pummeling, as well as serious injury or death.
Someone is choking. Choosing not to provide assistance (e.g., Heimlich, calling for help, etc.) increases their risk of serious injury or death.
A blind person is walking toward a busy road or steep drop-off. Choosing not to call out or otherwise intervene increases their risk of serious injury or death.
Your child is about to poke a metal knife at an electrical outlet. Choosing not to act increases the child’s risk of electrocution (serious injury or death).
There are plenty of others. All involve a choice between choosing to act and choosing not to act (which, itself, really is an action). All of the actions include a non-zero risk of personal injury or liability, as well.
Mr. Schecter, do you plan on visiting Europe with your daughter any time soon? She would love it, especially with the lowered herd immunity for measles.
Todd, not washing hand after using the toilet is another way to choose not to act.
There you are, Prometheus. Why are you running away you little piece of chicken $#!+. We still have an unfinished business, remember?
Skewed Distribution (SkewedD) has just posted an excellent article, Dear Anti-Vaxxers: This Is Why I Do Not Care For You.
And this comment from Autismum
Go read.
Due diligence Chris…due diligence.
Thanks again.
I’d call this exercise by Th1Th2 piteous if it weren’t so hilarious.
More than any other thread, acting like a complete bomb-throwing, just trying to get a rise out of the rest of us & give an excuse to post crazy crap.
Ignore, ignore, ignore.
No, you are not.
————————————–
âReckless driving (you actually have a car) is not permissible.â
First, not vaccinating places no one at risk
Because acting recklessly violates the rights of those being endangered. They were not at substantial risk till you began to ACT recklessly.
And a child as a car? This one is a new low (high?) for bad analogies. You own cars, you donât own a child. A child is in your care. Children have rights, cars donât You operate a car. You donât operate a child. Cars, as they exist, can be dangerous. Kids are not unless ill. Not vaccinating does not make a child ill.
——————————-
âNot getting a vaccine is a non-action.â
Youâre saying something is false does not make it so. It simply reveals the deluded nature of your thought process.
At what time do you all think they take away the troll’s laptop and turn off the lights at his “institution for the terminally helpless”?
There FTFY.
Sid, I see you made no effort whatsoever to address Todd@77. Still, what can I expect from someone who really does consider his personal convenience more important than other peoples’ lives.
Sid / Robert is the definition of a parasite – he takes pride in the fact that his risk (and his family’s) is so low of catching one of these diseases because the rest of us vaccinate, that he feels fine in forgoing vaccinations himself.
Of course, he also continues to advocate against vaccinations in general, which if successful over time will increase his (and his family’s) risk of catching the various vaccine-preventable diseases. This is very much along the lines of Dr. Sears telling his patients not to make their vaccine status public knowledge, as to take advantage of the general immunity of the community at large – because he too recognizes that if too many people don’t vaccinate, those diseases will return.
I guess parasites are “birds of a feather.”
Sorry for feeding the troll, but I can’t resist:
not washing hand after using the toilet is another way to choose not to act.
Due diligence Chris…due diligence.
Thanks again.
I find it funny that Thingy chooses this, of all things said in recent comments, as something worth focusing on. It’s like he’s looking for cheap rhetorical points without comprehending the central point everyone’s trying to convey.
It’s like he’s missing some vital mental ability the rest of us usually take for granted when we talk to other people.
Of course, others have already pointed out that hygiene, while a good general idea, has rather limited utility by itself in preventing the spread of airborne pathogens and the diseases they cause. Vaccination is very effective at stopping the spread of these diseases.
The alternative seems to be an idea that by some happy accident, everyone discovered and consistently practiced some new, nearly perfect hygienic process needed to prevent specific diseases at the same time and exactly in the same order as vaccines for those specific diseases came into widespread use.
@ MikeMa:
I would guess that, based on Dr Bob’s responses @ HP, he’s worried about being sued or sanctioned by a board.
These might be held in contrast to the rather cavalier speech by commenters here and by folks with anti-vax websites, who- unlike doctors- don’t have to be concerned with issues of responsibility. However, mis-information, whether it comes from professionals or those with pretensions of expertise, can still have damaging effects.
Sid is the perfect Dr Sears patient. Except Dr Sears tells his non-vaxxing customers to be quiet about it and we cannot get Sid to shut up.
From Robert Schecter, who
attempts towrites for Generation Rescue and Age of Autism (so you can consider the source):From a news report from actual journalists in Alaska (h_ttp://peninsulaclarion.com/news/2012-03-27/outbreak-raises-vaccine-exemption-concerns):
And then from the Mayo Clinic (medical experts, not libertarians who think they are medical experts):
Robert is the same person who said that what is bad for public health is good for America. So it’s obvious that we don’t live on the same planet that Mr. Schecter thinks he lives in. In his planet, the chickenpox vaccine causes far more harm than the disease itself, people are being held at gunpoint (“forced”) to vaccinate, and “not vaccinating places no one at risk”.
Since I refuse to believe that the employees of the Mayo Clinic are absolute idiots, or that the 16+ years I’ve spent in the medical sciences and 5 years in epidemiology were a waste of time or a sham, I believe it is time to abandon all hope on Mr. Schecter. This is the last time I mention his name or acknowledge his comments on here. It’s just not worth it. He is in full troll mode. Better to spend time explaining these simple concepts to someone who’ll listen.
Sid Offit:
the “index case” (ooohhh, scary)
Sid, if this term strikes you as over-dramatic, and if you think people are using it to make a humdrum contagion sound more important — and to dress their words in the verbal equivalent of a white lab coat — then can you suggest any alternative?
I’m not feeling these medical-drama associations myself.
Well, “everyone” is too busy running away.
Let me give you a clue. Do you know that one advantage of giving OPV is the capacity of the vaccine to confer “passive” immunization to the naive and uninfected? How is it done? Through purposeful secondary spread of the infectious poliovirus to close contacts. Judging Chris’ analysis, I would consider her as an “anti-vaccine” since she’s hindering this “beneficial” process and depriving the herd of immunity by advising them of proper “handwashing” and to “not drink someone else’s urine”.
@ Liz Ditz: Thanks for linking Reuben’s/The Poxes analysis of Hepatitis A on the NVIC.
I frequently “slum” at Babs’ NVIC website…I don’t think I have ever seen such a conglomerate of misinformation about vaccine-preventable diseases. It is obvious that Babs, or her “expert” who writes the drivel, confuses the hepatitis B and the hepatitis A viruses.
http://www.nvic.org/nvic-archives/newsletter/untoldstory.aspx
She/her “expert” also confuses (by ten years), the recommendation from the ACIP to institute the universal birth dose of the hepatitis B vaccine:
“CDC Recommends All Infants Get Hep B Vaccine – Even though hepatitis B is an adult disease, is not highly contagious, is not deadly for most who contract it, and is not in epidemic form in the U.S. (except among high risk groups such as IV drug addicts), in 1991 the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) of the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) recommended that all infants be injected with the first dose of hepatitis B vaccine at birth before being discharged from the hospital newborn nursery. A similar recommendation was also made by the Committee on Infectious Diseases of the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP). This, despite the fact almost nothing is known about the health and integrity of an individual baby’s immune and neurological systems at birth.”
(The date of the recommendation from the ACIP for the “hepatitis B universal birth dose” was October 17, 2001.)
Militant Agnostic @75 —
Good one! Please join me in my campaign to refer to libertarianism (in its North American manifestations) as “The New Irresponsibility”.
@Todd W
We certainly donât want to go back to the pre-seatbelt era when millions were killed due to human projectiles being launched from their cars.
Anyway, taking a drive with a child in the backseat of a car is an action.. When you take an action with a child you need to be sure it is protected. (Whether the failure to protect with seatbelts is so egregious as to warrant government involvement is debatable.) As a risk factor to others, the human as projectile is silly.
Not getting vaccinated increases your risk (or maintains a high baseline) of infection and injury (or death) from disease.
It maintains whatever baseline exists. And the baseline risk from death is not âhigh.â You conflate the chance of catching with the chances of death.
No it maintains whatever baseline existed
No, it does not increase risk. The risk is there. Itâs just not being removed. (And replaced by the risks and pain of vaccination)
Your own argument equivocates between âincreases your riskâ and âmaintains a high baselineâ (hereâs a hint: it canât be both) yet all your conclusions are based on âincreases your riskâ being true – which it is of course is not
I guess I just have to be smarter than the other dimwit with whom Iâm debating. And when that other dimwit is you, I always am.
I’m not surprised. Anyone who’s watched the Muppets knows that Dr Bob is “a quack who has gone to the dogs.”
Actually, it’ll just be Robert from now on, I refuse to deal with stupid pseudonyms from trolls anymore, since we know who you are.
And, based on standard troll tactics, you automatically assume the “worst-case scenario” is the only scenario that should be considered when making a decision either for public health, or in the example above, seat-belts. Since you believe that the chances of a person being thrown from an automobile to be low (since the overall chances of being in an accident are low), regulations requiring the use of seatbelts must not be necessary (and in your mind, an abridgement of your freedom).
You also feel that vaccine preventable diseases aren’t “bad” or kill enough people, therefore vaccines aren’t necessary. So, please enlighten us to the total number of deaths and injuries that are necessary before you could support either (vaccines or seatbelts)?
Where is your threshhold of tolerance for “acceptable” losses before you could support vaccine use?
Oh here’s the baseline between the unvaccinated/uninfected and the VZV-vaccinated. The latter WILL surely qualify for shingles.
And for the analogy-filled, science-free people, here’s the baseline;
1. Seatbelts inherently protect the passenger.
2. Vaccines inherently infect the recipient.
The trash can is this way fans of seatbelt/vaccines analogy.
@Sid
Never said that “millions were killed” by human projectiles, but have fun with your strawmen.
Driving is an action, yes. But wearing (or not wearing) your seat belt is a separate action. Don’t conflate the two. And thinking that human projectiles is silly, you do realize what happens to unsecured objects in a vehicle that is in an accident, right? They become projectiles. They do not just magically stay in place.
When you choose not to vaccinate, you are having a negative impact on herd immunity (i.e., by decreasing herd immunity, you are increasing the risk of an outbreak). Your personal risk may remain at baseline when you do not vaccinate. However, relative to the people around you, you increase their risk because you have chosen to become a potential vector that, under normal circumstances, would not be a vector. So, yes, there actually is a net increase in risk.
Are you implying you don’t have “genuine qualifications”? Must be a bummer isn’t it?
@99 – Lawrence
I’ve asked Sid this question before. Didn’t get an answer then, and I would not expect one now.
It is ironic that Robert does not like the “if” argument “If people start doing what you do, then herd immunity will decrease” but supports the “if” argument “if it gets bad enough I will support vaccination”.
@Chris
Yes, we’ve visited Europe several times. Thanks for your interest.
——————
@Todd “bad analogy” W
Someone is being punched repeatedly. Choosing not to intervene increases the victim’s risk of continued pummeling, as well as serious injury or death.
No.
Someone is choking. Choosing not to provide assistance (e.g., Heimlich, calling for help, etc.) increases their risk of serious injury or death.
No.
A blind person is walking toward a busy road or steep drop-off. Choosing not to call out or otherwise intervene increases their risk of serious injury or death.
No.
Your child is about to poke a metal knife at an electrical outlet. Choosing not to act increases the child’s risk of electrocution (serious injury or death).
No, a child about to electrocute himself is already at risk by his actions. My actions pull him back from the edge and take away that risk. Not acting leaves things as they are. (besides in the case of a child, a parent has the obligation to act as guardian etc]
————————–
JGC, I haven’t forgotten about you but I have the plumber here.
The unvaccinated infected are qualified to get shingles as well as getting chicken pox.
Stew, I think you did get an answer – just not the one you wanted. But if you didn’t, here it is. Acceptable losses are decided on an individual basis. If people see a great enough risk they will act. Then, at some point, a natural equilibrium will emerge that reflects the individual choices of a population.
@ Michelle K. Kudos to you for “coming out” about your experiences. I’m so sorry your babies had to deal with what they did and you were just looking out for their best interests. Your experience is not as uncommon as you might think and parents like you can perhaps make more of a difference than we eggheads.
Because you did not put a leash on your infectious child for 42 days following primary VZV vaccination and there are some stupid parents allowing their children to get infected naturally in a pox party, I do not doubt your infection-promoting agenda nonetheless.
The question is, how do you plan to infect a naive and innocent child with VZV?
“you do realize what happens to unsecured objects in a vehicle that is in an accident, right? They become projectiles. They do not just magically stay in place.”
Sid was the fellow who couldn’t understand that darkness could be a factor in causing injuries, so I wouldn’t assume that he understands anything at all.
(crickets chirping)
Don’t disturb.
There goes Robert again, talking theory again. I asked specifically, how many kids have to get sick, maimed or die before YOU consider the risk to be enough to be in support of vaccinations?
Yes, Schecter is very silly. The type that will only learn if his child becomes an index patient after a trip to where a disease in endemic.
Means to be in support of shingles.
Thank you come again.
All this talk about seatbelt use reminded me of a study I came across a couple years ago:
“We compared risk of death and severe injury of front-seat occupants in car crashes with belted or unbelted rear-seat passengers. The risk of death of belted front-seat occupants with unbelted rear-seat passengers was raised nearly five-fold.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=11809187
Since my first driving class I was always mindful of using my seatbelt and making sure the front passenger had their’s on too, but it wasn’t until I saw this that I started making sure the backseat passengers were belted in as well.
“Or ‘Dr. Bob,’ as he likes to be called.”
That’s because he is a muppet.
Antiquated Tory,
This UK TV safety ad makes the same point, somewhat graphically. It may be a touch too graphic for some tastes.
@106
It isn’t that I don’t like the answer, this just isn’t much of an answer. All you have done is restated your position (which we already know) that when an outbreak occurs, on an individual basis, people will chose to get vaccinated. It leaves many questions, such as: at what risk level will people choose to vaccinate (ballpark figure?), would equilibrium position be at a point to stop transmission? I imagine you must have worked out some sort of model to calculate these so you can work out when to vaccinate, right?
When would “you” choose to vaccinate? You must have worked out a critical point where you go from “vaccination is not worth the risk” to “vaccination is not worth the risk”. Or would you vaccinate on a gut feeling that the outbreak is large enough.
“Yes, Schecter is very silly. The type that will only learn if his child becomes an index patient after a trip to where a disease in endemic.”
You mean like Dr Sears office?
How to Join the Shingles Club For Dummies
Qualification:
1. Must have a proof of primary VZV infection, either:
a. history of natural chicken pox
OR
b. documented receipt of varicella vaccine.
Buy one Take one exclusive for SBM and RI fanatics!
Hurry! Offer good while supplies last.
“Yes, Schecter is very silly. The type that will only learn if his child becomes an index patient after a trip to where a disease in endemic.”
You mean like Dr Sears office?”
Don’t count on Offal, ever learning about an “index case”. Ren and I had to instruct him about what an “index case” is, the last time Offal posted here.
Offal’s *expertise* is in *fire science*…yet he didn’t even know why his mother’s bedroom in a senior living facility was locked, during a fire drill.
(I informed him about Fire Safety Codes…and I’m not even a graduate with a *fire science degree*, from a fourth tier college.)
|
Thingy, sweetheart, did your meds run out? You sound especially unhinged today.
External circumstances are not “private property,” which is all this assertion amounts to–not “the” baseline, but “my” baseline. The baseline, however, is the situation without any vaccine to be had.
“In the old days most parents simply followed their doctor’s advice and automatically got their children vaccinated.”
This line is striking as a fallacy right off the bat, and a quite bizarre one. Resistance to vaccination is thoroughly documented as far back as vaccines themselves, and there is no cause to doubt that such resistance has, to greater or lesser degrees, existed continuously ever since. The baffling thing is, isn’t this remark from Sears a slight against the “anti-vaccine” side?
@107″ Kudos to you for “coming out” about your experiences. I’m so sorry your babies had to deal with what they did and you were just looking out for their best interests. Your experience is not as uncommon as you might think and parents like you can perhaps make more of a difference than we eggheads.”
This could also apply to the those parents with fully vaccinated chidren who are also vaccine injured but I guess they shouldn’t speak out lest they skew egghead stats.
Because you did not put a leash on your infectious child for 42 days following primary VZV vaccination and there are some stupid parents allowing their children to get infected naturally in a pox party, I do not doubt your infection-promoting agenda nonetheless.
Because there’s no other way to get chicken pox.
Ah, lurker, welcome back. Please do explain to Sid how important it is that his children should get chickenpox so that the adults around them will get their antibodies boosted and thus will not get shingles. By the way, I don’t believe you ever answered whether you were volunteering your children, as well as Sid’s, for this purpose.
Surely some sanctioning, at the very least, is on order for this hypocritical antivaxx arse-kissing sleaze.
lurker:
But unlike Michelle K, those who claim to have a vaccine injury have a recourse: National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program.
Parents like Michelle and I do not have that. There are more children injured and who suffer from the diseases than the vaccines. The stats are there, whether you like them or not. They are not “egghead stats”, they are reality.
I caught chicken pox before there was a vaccine and without attending a pox party. What percentage of people caught chicken pox at some point in their lives before the vaccine?
I’d be very interested in any data that proves people are immunized by exposure to someone who has had the chicken pox vaccine.
What a massive strawman. Your lot do it to yourselves by proclaiming that every malady imaginable is caused by vaccines and use VAERS as proof of that. We take bona fide vaccine injuries seriously and they are rare. Unfortunately, parents suckered in by the likes of Dr. Bob are not; he knows it and blithely taps into that market.
Sid
But you donât have the obligation to act to reduce your childâs risk of contracting a disease?
Hey, thingy, did you ever figure out what a hemostat was?
Michelle’s children weren’t injured -except for the one who has asthma which is on the
increase in fully vaccinated children. I don’t think asthma is rising in unvaccinated
children because all the stats show high vaccination compliance in the US.
Referring to the past and what could have been,maybe, is a moot point.
Did you hear what I said? I.do.not.doubt.your.infection-promoting.agenda.
Now infection promoter, how are you going to prevent chicken pox and shingles?
This is interesting. I’ve been hearing this superstition for quite some time now—coming from both sides, the vaccinators and the antivaccines.
Anyway, I’ll be waiting for lurker’s response.
Th1Th2: Are you aware the universe is more complicated than “infection=bad”?
You know, that whole “asthma in vaccinated children” thing reeks a lot of the whole “my unvaccinated 15 year-old daughter has never had to go to the doctor” or some similar story that anti-vaxers like to tout. More overweight children (thus with poor cardio-respiratory capacity), more children that don’t go outdoors, more children that live in poor housing, and more contaminated air in the cities probably (and in my humble opinion) have more to do with asthma in children than immunizations.
Why do I think this? Because today’s children get far less in immunogens/antigens from vaccines than they do from contaminated air to mess with their immune systems like anti-vaxers proclaim they do. Vaccines in the 70’s and 80’s were teeming with antigens. The technology to trick our immune system into antibody production and memory cell creation has only been getting safer, calling into question the assertions that our immunized children have only been getting sicker. If they have, it’s not the vaccines… It’s the contaminated air that, as some would put it, “the free market needs to regulate”.
@137 It’s not the antigen load but switching from Th1 to Th2 dominance that vaccines cause.
Maybe somebody would like to debunk this?
Th1Th2:
Shingles and chickenpox are the exact same virus. Exposure to the active form of the virus (chicken pox) helps the antibodies of adults shut down the inactive form (shingles.) Good lord. I had barely any formal training* in biology and don’t work in a healthcare field, and I figured that one out in a heartbeat. I assume you must breathe on your own, but I’m stumped as to how you can manage to type. From your postings, I doubt an EEG machine would register any brain activity. And you still haven’t answered my question about the hemostat.
* All that can be learned from PBS, a childhood spent as a guinea pig and a brief deluded stint as a biology major in college.
The measles-in-the-waiting-room transmission was
And this news report from February 16 2008 at SignOn San Diego
Click on my name and it will take you to the blog post I wrote about the outbreak in February 2008
Can you please try to form coherently constructed sentences? That said, I never said nor implied that Michelle’s children were vaccine injured and neither did she so what does that have to do with anything outside of random nonsense in your fevered brain? Oh “you don’t think”? Well yea, that’s obvious so next time something like that flops out of your brainspace, include some evidence?
And this refers to what exactly?
@138: It’s because you’ve been placing curses on everyone. Care to debunk this? Not that we can trust an accused warlock.
Lurker brings up an meme that I’ve been hearing lately:
asthma has been rising because of increased vaccination.
Not only does vaccination cause autism but if would believe the Canary Party, it is responsible for other chronic illnesses like asthma, allergies, Crohn’s, MS etc( see Canary Party.org) as well. According to Gary Null, about 25% of children are on psychiatric meds and fully one sixth** now have developmental disabilities.
Of course, vaccines are only the most obvious culprit damaging this generation lost to illness: HFCS, food additives, GMO crops, gluten and caseine contribute handily to the problem.
Interestingly enough, it appears that supplements and restrictive diets can reverse some of the problems or so we are told by those who sell supplements, special foods and books about diet. AoA displays supplement adverts: acidophilis, probiotics, enzymes, DMAE, DHA, fatty acids, inositol and vitamins B & D seem to be popular choices. Oddly, the list seems very similar to supplements touted as anti-aging protocols. I suppose if you sell vitamins everything looks like a deficiency.
** all statisticians may now cringe in unison.
A reminder about Th1Th2:
1) She’s redefined “infection” such that some types of white blood cells can become infected by dead bacteria.
2) She’s redefined “asymptotic infection” such that an infection can have symptoms yet still be an asymptotic infection.
3) She claims that toddlers are smart enough to know they should walk on nice clean sidewalks instead of on germ-laden dirt.
Consider that before wasting time responding to her.
lurker, the point is that parents who have kids get the very rare vaccine injury have a recourse. The much more larger group of children who get the illnesses (like the baby who was hospitalized due to the 2008 San Diego measles outbreak) do not have that.
You are showing that you no clue about the suffering that Michelle experienced. Or the families of ten babies who died from pertussis in California in 2010. Or these these families.
Show us that the DTaP vaccine killed ten kids in one year. Show us that the MMR vaccine put several kids in the hospital. Show us that the vaccines cause more harm than the diseases.
Mephistopheles O’Brien,
Per your request.
Transmission of Varicella Vaccine Virus, Japan
Consider that to be your biggest problem. Next.
Now infection promoter, how are you going to prevent chicken pox and shingles?
Haven’t we been asking that for months? All varicella vaccines are destroyed. Pox parties are stopped. Does anyone still get chicken pox in this world?
Sid, you replied to me @ 84, but you might as well go ahead and forget about me. By explicitly stating “not vaccinating places no one at risk” you proven you lack sufficient understanding of immunization and infectious disease to offer any credible opinion about either.
Also, what job, what hospital?
@ Ren: The NYC Department of Health has a Pediatric Asthma Initiative program for Bronx schoolchildren. Bronx is the pediatric asthma capital of the United States. The health department in collaboration with area hospitals run on-site and school based clinics, parent educational programs, and integrated pest control measures to decrease rat, mouse and roach infestations in substandard housing. Bronx kids deserve to get good asthma management care:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892895/?tool=pubmed
Another theme of the anti-vax crowd is the dramatic increase in childhood Type II diabetes…attributed to teh evil vaccines.
Funny that, the *science* bloggers at the notorious anti-vax website are able to plot on graphs the *correlation* between additional vaccines added to the Childhood Recommended Vaccine Schedule, with increased incidence of Type II diabetes.
Missing from the equation is the increase in childhood obesity…that causes insulin-resistance, metabolic syndrome and type II diabetes:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/112/2/424.full
@Jennifer:
Those pediatricians were idiots if they said that vaccines were risk free.
I see that Shechter is as dishonest as always.
Liar.
Dear lurker @ 138, you really have been reading too much garbage from Harold Buttram. Aluminum hydroxide/phosphate does not “switch” the immune response from Th1 to Th2, that is a widely circulated lie. The predominant antibody isotypes made after alum containing immunizations are Th1 type. Your confusion comes from the fact that several of the dreck articles floating about do not distinguish between Th1 polarization of the antibody response and “cellular immunity” – the response by CD8+ T cells to kill virally infected cells. No killed/subunit vaccine can produce effective CD8+ T cell responses, you need a full infection such as from the MMR for that, but all of the licensed vaccines in the USA produce Th1 driven antibody responses.
Beyond that, just the mention of “Th1 to Th2 dominance” shows that A) you need to upgrade your immunology background from the late 1970’s and B) you don’t even get what the term means. Resident trolls here like to talk about Th1 and Th2 as if that was is what’s driving the immune response – what about the Th3, Th9, Th17, Thefh, and Thfh cells? What about the BAFF and APRIL cytokines that contribute to B cell survival/activation and antibody isotype class switching? What about the TGF-beta that switches local B cell antibody production from IgG to IgA if they are in the gut-associated lymphoid tissue irrespective of contributing helper T cell type? What about the fact that all children’s immune systems are biased toward a Th2 immune response no matter what kind of infection they have and that the same supposed “Th2 inducing vaccine” gives a different antibody isotype response in older patients?
The ignorance of your attempted question is staggering.
Jay Chaplin the Real Deal Infection Promoter
Th1Th2: No, it’s not my problem. My point is that you claim to have had formal training in biology, yet you continually come up with outrageous claims and outright lies. I can spot the lies and like I said, I have barely any formal training at all. I will leave it to the experts to take down some of the more esoteric lies, but if you’re going to get really simple facts wrong, everyone’s allowed to take potshots. You even fail at memes like pwnage. 12 year olds know what that means.
Dedicated lurker: Yes, as far as I know. I caught chicken pox a few years before the vaccine was developed, and given how many parents are anti-vaccine or view chicken pox as ‘no big deal’ I’m sure there are kids who are still catching it.
Hey pig are you sure it’s the “antibodies?
My own taunt from Thingy, I’m so thrilled to have made the bigtime! Really though, anyone who wants to use the “vaccines switch the immune system to Th2” needs to explain why vaccines produce mostly IgG1 and 2 isotypes and essentially no IgG4 and IgE isotypes as it would be by a Th2 response.
“Idiot! You don’t work in the setting so STFU!” – Th1Th2
“I worked in a hospital…” – Th1Th2
What hospital, what job?
(crickets chirping)
(crickets still chirping)
(Thing running away)
(Much laughter)
You don’t have to ask for something that normally occurs during primary immune response. Like any vaccine zealots, your expectations are too high.
WHAT HOSPITAL, WHAT JOB, LIAR?
…and misguided.
@ Jay Chaplin: I see you evoked a response from the *SFB* Troll.
Thingy has been spreading its brain droppings here for ages…it was banned from mothering.com, for cripes sakes:
http://www.mothering.com/community/forums/posts/by_user/id/129448/page/
It craves attention; derives its *jollies* by every derisive reply it gets.
It is clinically insane, scams the system by cycling in and out of custodial care. It has no gainful employment and is on the dole.
It posts fasts and furious for days on end…only when it is custodial care, because its usual habitat is a sewer, or a cave or cardboard box. Its keepers eventually cuts off its internet access and puts it to bed.
Thingy’s favorite phrases are “iatrogenic death” when referring to a child who died of a vaccine-preventable disease…or directing a comment to a poster here with a developmentally disabled child, “your child is vaccine-damaged”.
Truly an odious creature, who needs to be “terminally disinfected”.
What hospital, what job, Thing?
Please try to string together coherent sentences, thingy. Also, read my signature: it’s guinea pig, not pig. Different animal altogether.
I was referring to your post @141 where you made a claim about “antibodies shutting down shingles”. Is that your final answer, guineaPIG?
As usual, I’ve got an obligation to fulfill. Gotta go.
(crickets still chirping)
What hospital, what job, you lying sack of shit?
You said it, not us.
Pretending to be a doctor and advising parents to harm their kids is about as scum-sucking as it gets, you revolting ignoramus.
Really want to help kids? Kill yourself.
Dear lilady, I have never expected anything from Thingy other than the faint whiff of flowers and kindness that it sows everywhere. Thomas Pine said it well “to argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead”, although in Thingy’s case the term “person” is somewhat stretched. The point remains though, for anyone who has to deal with anti-vax nuttery or just likes to post on Buttram’s articles like I do (though my comments always get deleted), that the whole “vaccines cause a Th2 shift” is bogus and unsupported by data. My comment was never even really directed at lurker, who shows little inclination to learn from errors, but to provide ammunition for folks having to deflect this question from half-baked relatives, etc.
(crickets chirping)
(Thing running)
(children cheering)
“Th1 and Th2 responses: what are they?”
http://www.bmj.com/content/321/7258/424.1
Th1Th2 responses: WTF are they…? 😉
Maybe time to ask for a ban?
No point talking to it, after all. It’s too stupid and dishonest to debate with.
Cute, very cute lurker. That is a vague, general overview article that is over a decade old. Had you actually read over it before posting the link you would have noticed that, even in it’s incompleteness and overly simplistic view it still confirms what I said… “Th2-type cytokines include interleukins 4, 5, and 13, which are associated with the promotion of IgE”, so how come vaccines don’t induce any IgE production? This response of yours is what we call a “fail”.
“As usual, I’ve got an obligation to fulfill. Gotta go.”
Poof…gone just like that. Its keepers have turned off its internet access.
@Jay
No- it’s posting articles that I find interesting compared to the nonsensical postings of some fanatics here.
Yes everyone says there are few risks with vaccines……and state science backs it
up….and then I see “The Greater Good” (which was trashed on this blog)……..
I really don’t know- but I do not advise anyone to not get vaccinated if that is what they want. My grandchildren are but they seem to be picking up a lot of infections.
“I’ve got an obligation to fulfill” – that’s the strangest euphemism for an enema that I’ve ever heard.
Dear lurker, if you look on the internet for information and can’t tell good information from bad you will find all kinds of dreck. Try http://www.vetpath.co.uk/voodoo/, or home.exetel.com.au/ttguy/Society_for_DNA_Free_Food.php, or http://www.ourhollowearth.com/. Look, it is not your fault that you have been fed crap information, but it is still crap information. Chris Shaw seems really convincing in “The Greater Good” but does he tell you that the only way to get the wimpy results he uses to rail about the dangers of aluminum adjuvants is to inject them directly into the spine of the mice? Please tell me what vaccine is administered by injecting directly into the spine? None. If that is your standard and source of information I can certainly understand why you are concerned, but all I can tell you is quit listening to liars and start searching pubmed and looking for the consensus – what has been replicated by hundreds of independent studies.
And, lurker, none of this changes the fact that the ridiculously simplistic and old article you linked to directly supports my assertion and contradicts yours of “switching from Th1 to Th2 dominance that vaccines cause”.
@Jay -it was from the BMJ-
Dear lurker, yes, I know your link was from the BMJ. It says so in the link itself, kind of hard to miss. The link goes to a summary article of less than one page, published in 2000, with only two references. It does not distinguish between Th1 cytokine activation of “cellular immunity” and Th1 skewing of antibody production by B cells. It fails to acknowledge that Th1 cytokines also induce the production of antibodies, not just Th2, and it supports my earlier points that A) Th2 biased immunity is the natural state of infants and not an artifact of vaccination, B) that Th2 cytokines would lead to the production of IgE – which vaccines do not. You seem to be assuming I cannot read while evidencing the fact that you are not reading. This is what we call a “repeat fail”.
Lurker, all you have done is confirm my earlier opinion “never even really directed at lurker, who shows little inclination to learn from errors”.
@Jay thank you for the info- Errors imply action not thought-
It will not be an error not to post anymore questions- I received all the answers I
needed however snide at times.
Dearest lurker, you did not post a question so you cannot err by posting anymore questions. Your post was “It’s not the antigen load but switching from Th1 to Th2 dominance that vaccines cause. Maybe somebody would like to debunk this?” I did. You are welcome. If you like snide you will have to go elsewhere as my comments do not fit the definition – they are neither “Disparaging or derisive in an insinuative way” as I am disparaging without insinuating anything nor are they deceptive or false, those have been characterized by your post at 140.
For general info:
Articles on the rate of side effects following VZV vaccination, including the risks of transmission of virus to new contacts:
http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/197/Supplement_2/S165.long
http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/197/Supplement_2/S170.long
I realise these woill be cherry-picked by the trolls, but the overwhelming good safety profile and extremely low risk of transmission events is clear for all to see.
Just to add one of those studies is a VAERS analysis – so take with a large pinch of salt.
@Quokka, all Dr Sears ALL CAPS response needed was a ‘shit happens’ at the end of it and I would have been convinced that they[re the same person. Or maybe if he’d added LOL! it would have made him feel heaps cooler and down with the kids.
Sid, congrats on getting hold of a plumber. Can be next to impossible to get tradies around. Did they clean up all of the fecal backlog?
Nice work Liz; you’d think that given Dr. Bob has a PR person in his employ and numerous grunts, someone would have dug that up.
@Sid
When you enter a community, you will have an immediate impact on the risk of everyone else there. If you are not vaccinated, you inherently increase the risk of disease transmission within that community, because your addition to the whole skews the herd immunity downward. If you are immunized, you decrease the risk, trending herd immunity upward.
When you have a child, your decisions involving immunizing that child also have either a positive or negative effect on the community’s risk of disease. Since they are a new factor added to the whole, if you choose not to immunize, then that increases the risks of disease transmission. If you opt in favor of immunization, then you decrease the overall risk. The only way for the baseline risk to remain steady is to either leave the community or to introduce an equal number of individuals choosing the opposite of your actions.
I posed the same questions again at Dr. Sears on the Ho-Po today…still in moderation.
I’ll be offline for several hours and will be thrilled if I pass moderation and Sears actually answers my questions about the index case’s two siblings, and Sear’s communication with Seth Mnookin.
Lurker @ 178
Which infections are they picking up–ones like pertussis, measles, mumps, etc that they’ve been vaccinated against, or other pathogens they have not been immunized against and there would be no reasonable expectation they’d be less vulnerable to?
Th1Th2: Did you learn biology in an alternate universe or something? Of course antibodies shut down shingles. They’ll attack and kill ANY virus except for AIDs. People suffering from shingles might need a little boost to help them clear up the symptoms, but the immune system is still on the job.
Oh really? Two words. Measles rash.
Ignore insane troll – we are only validating its existence by attempted to engage in its idiotic rants.
Which is caused by measles. Are you really unable tell distinguish between measles and measles vaccines?
Oh, wait…the inability to distinguish between immunization and infection has been a hallmark of your posts all along.
So what’s your point? Proceed.
That seems to be a common knowledge. Proceed.
In the case of secondary immune response, yes there would be a Th2 biased immune response in neonates but I wouldn’t call it as “the natural state” since Th1 and Th2 are activated during primary immune response. Heck, that’s what vaccines are famous for and you’re the only one who’s saying it’s “not an artifact of vaccination”.
Like I said, try the measles vaccine.
STFU and learn. Please don’t be so stupid.
Infection of human B lymphocytes with MMR vaccine induces IgE class switching.
STFU and learn. Please don’t be so stupid.
Infection of human B lymphocytes with MMR vaccine induces IgE class switching.
h_ttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11513549
Thingy, your current batch of Thorazine seems to be ineffective. Please tell your doctor.
IMO Th1Th2 needs her own thread where she can be dumped and post to her heart’s content without gumming up other threads with outright crankery.
That way she can’t say she’s been repressed or banned, while we all get a break from her ceaseless nonsense.
An excellent idea. I might just consider it. 🙂
Definitely a good idea, Composer99. People who want to poke the troll for their amusement can do so without disrupting other conversations, too. It gets my vote.
Giving Thingy her own thread sounds like an excellent idea to me as well. I used to find her sort of amusing – I still occasionally get a chuckle when I think of toddlers dutifully staying on the sidewalk and not getting off in all that nasty grass and dirt. Then I grew bored with her, and generally just scrolled by any comment she made. But just lately, when I’ve caught a few of her comments, she seems to be decompensating. It’s unsettling and not in a good, intellectually stimulating way . . .
Get rid of thingy. It distracts from the conversation and simply cusses out people who disagree.
I no longer read thing’s rants and insults either. She/It really doesn’t serve any post or thread-related purpose at all.
As an added bonus, restricting loons to their own thread saves time pointing out their contradictions on other threads. There’s a certain climate-denial thread elsewhere on this site that has followed the same protocol.
Can we arrange somehow to bundle Sid’s posts with Th1Th2’s if you create the new thread? By stating explicitly “not vaccinating places no one at risk” he’s made it clear he doesn’t bring anything more to the table than does thingy.
My vote for an “abyss of ignominy” thread devoted to Thingdong-type trolls is cast as well. Perfect for Robin Hood, Smarter than you and the stoner dude too.
Oh please, please, please?
Ego.Ego.Ego. There’s always a place for everyone.
Let’s stay on the topic, shall we?
Yes, Th1Th2, and your place is to play on the floor in the living room with the other toddlers while the adults sit at the table and have a intelligent discussion with each other.
Of course, you can go outside and play on the nice clean sanitary concrete sidewalk if you prefer.
@JGC
Stupid. Part of operating [acting] a car involves using the brakes. If you are a railroad switchman, the action is working as a switchman which obligates you to turn the switches on and off. Existing creates no obligation to act/vaccinate.
——————————-
âNot vaccinating puts no one at risk since the the bugs are out there already – if they weren’t you could not catch anything.â
The groups you describe are already at risk. You admit it by saying I choose to REMAIN a potential vector (funny how your side sees people as objects such as vectors)
Herd immunity is a product of government force and as such is something that carries no moral weight. Besides, Iâm not compromising it. Iâm just not supporting it. There is no obligation for me to support it.
This definition of herd immunity explains it provides protection:
Failing to protect is not placing at risk. Protection implies there is already something for which others need protection. Putting at risk means creating a risk that did not otherwise exist.
JGC Part II
âThe only time you have a responsibility is when you know you have an illness.â
Where do you get these absurd analogies? No, morally, if you own a hotel you do not have to jump through these hoops. Perhaps if you had sprinklers (the owners choice), youâd be implying to your guests they worked and may then have an obligation to ensure they did.
—————-
âYES, that’s REALLY my position. Actions are circumscribed when they violate the rights of others, not solely because they might put someone at risk.â
Do you understand what the word âsolelyâ means?
———————–
âAfter all, even safe driving puts others at some degree of risk.â
Where did I say this. You are utterly confused.
———————
Placing one at risk, can, but does not necessarily violate oneâs rights.
By not supporting it you ARE compromising it. A drunk manatee can understand this. The only thing that remains to be determined whether you are just monumentally stupid, too idealogically blinkered to understand Kindergarten math, or both.
@Sid
Technically speaking, herd immunity is not solely achieved by immunization. It also encompasses those individuals who are immune because they had and lived through an infection, and subsequently gained immunity from future infections. Unless you’re going to accuse wild type bacteria and viruses of being in cahoots with government, you’re wrong. Now, the down side to relying solely on trying to achieve herd immunity through natural infection is that you never get there, since you need to be infected in order to increase the immune portion of the community.
But, go on. Continue displaying how you care absolutely nothing for any human being other than yourself. You do quite a good job of it.
You have just got to love libertarian logic. The convolutions of thought that go into its depths of illogical connections is fascinating. This is a guy who does not understand why taking an unvaccinated child to a place where measles is endemic is idiotic.
@Stu
I’m convinced that if the government forbade Mr. Schechter from vaccinating himself and his family, he would be first in line to get their shots.
Did you tell that to the cancer surgeon who do not treat children?
cancer surgeons who do not….
Two words. Live vaccines. They MUST infect.
I do love how trolls fail to read what they cite. The paper Thingy refers to @199 shows that measles does not induce IgE even at the transcript level, that is done by the Rubella component only. It also shows that the IgE transcript is germline, in other words not specific for anything and functionless. It also shows that the IL-4 only control, which is a VERY weak inducer of IgE by itself, totally smokes the high dose rubella infection as an inducer of IgE. Further, they show no evidence that the IgE transcripts are ever expressed into protein and mention specifically and reference that many are not. Finally, if you bother to do the math, they use 200 to 4000 TCID50 units of virus per ml in culture with purified cells – if you compare this to what is used in the MMR and the fluid volume of a one year old you will find that they overexposed the cells in culture by a factor of 450 fold.
I know it is hard for Thingy, and most anti-science types to distinguish between “what we can unreasonably force to happen in a petri dish” vs. “what actually happens in a person”, but here’s the issue… If the MMR, or any other vaccine, produced a significant amount of IgE there would be escalating allergic reactions with every vaccination, the second DTaP would be bad, the third would be much worse, the fourth should be fatal, etc. however we see the opposite, in general the reactions get smaller rather than larger. You can also see this from the timing, Thingy loves her measles rash when it comes on 5-7 days after infection but IgE reactions occur within 5 to 30 minutes after exposure.
Or, put a final way since Thingy repeatedly claimed to be a RN in a past life, what is the treatment for anaphylaxis? Antihistamines and epinephrine. What is the treatment for measles rash? Rest and oatmeal baths. Why are the treatments not the same? Because the causes are not the same.
JGC was correct, however I’m sure that Thingy won’t “STFU and learn. Please don’t be so stupid.”
It saddens me to hear talk of banning users. The beauty of this blog is it’s tolerance for differing views and for allowing users to interact with one another in a rough-and- tumble manner. Unless a user is way out of line in regards to language or behavior, I’d like to see their participation protected. But, hey that’s just my opinion. The blog owner must ultimately decide.
See, we’re now able to enjoy an interesting discussion of the immune system thanks to Th1Th2’s participation.
@Robert – you, at least, are somewhat rational – wrong-headed, in my opinion, but you can carry on a conversation that is somewhat related to the topic at hand. Your presence does generate lively debate, which is good.
Insane troll, on the other hand, is nothing more than a chaotic mess, bringing nothing to the discussion, other than to justify its own existence. There is a huge difference between you – and I would take that as a compliment.
The Thing doesn’t participate. It spams meaningless drivel.
With the anti-science/rationality/education crap that’s been gaining ground in our country over the last few decades, I am fully in favor of selective censorship. Who decides? At higher levels, that needs to be worked out. At lower, blog-level decisions? The blog owner. Thingy is an incredibly good example of why I favor this. NOTHING is gained from Thingy’s participation in this blog. There is no benefit–Thing’s presence actively hurts and derails valid discussion.
“Part of operating [acting] a car involves using the brakes.”
Which would be an action, but according to your own argument not using the brakes would represent an inaction (just like not getting vaccinated) so I’d have no responsibility for failing to act by applying them.
If you believe this example fails it’s because your argument is invalid, not because there’s something ‘magically’ different about not getting vaccinated versus not doing anything else.
“If you are a railroad switchman, the action is working as a switchman which obligates you to turn the switches on and off. Existing creates no obligation to act/vaccinate.”
Being an adult member of any human society obligates you to take steps to ensure you do not place other members at risk unnecessarily; being a parent obligates you to take reasonable steps to ensure your children do not place others at risk unnecessarily. (You’re really too clueless to grasp this fundamental concept?)
“The groups you describe are already at risk. You admit it by saying I choose to REMAIN a potential vector (funny how your side sees people as objects such as vectors)”
Yes, we’ll all already at riskâdid you have a point? It’s not las if only the two conditions of ‘at risk’ and ‘completely risk free’ exist. There is instead a continuum of degrees of risk, and your failure to immunize places others at significantly greater risk of injury from infectious disease.
“Herd immunity is a product of government force and as such is something that carries no moral weight.”
No, it isn’t. It’s the product of sufficiently large percentages of a population possessing resistance to infectious disease, and it’s the fact taht you are placing the health and safety of other individuals at risk by compromising herd immunity that carries moral weight in this instance.
“Besides, Iâm not compromising it. Iâm just not supporting it. There is no obligation for me to support it.”
You’re doing more than failing to support it: by electing not to comply with recommended immuniation you’re reducing the percentage of the population resistant to disease and are in fact compromising herd immunity.
“Failing to protect is not placing at risk.”
Electing to remain a potential reservoir/vector for infectious disease is to place others at risk. We see the results, in the increased numbers of infections, epidemic clusters and deaths due to preventable diseases such as pertussis which occur when herd immunity falls.
“Protection implies there is already something for which others need protection. Putting at risk means creating a risk that did not otherwise exist.”
>>More meaningless semantics. Putting others at risk does not only occur when creating a risk that did not previously exist: it also occurs whenever your actions increases the degree of extant risk.
Consider driving. Every time anyone travels by automobile they’re at risk of accident and injury. If you drink and drive, despite the fact that they’re already at risk of having an accident you are placing them at riskâyou’re increasing the likelihood a collusion will occur.
parties at risk.
But I’m sure you feel it’s unreasonable, perhaps representative of government force, that others would expect you to refrain from driving when intoxicated.
Well, Thingy does make everyone else look good, sane, well-researched and rationalized by comparison. Heck, even makes Wakefield look good.
Show me it was the Rubella.
Well, duh. Primary immune response as always will produce germline antibodies. Please do mind your place.
Do you deny that measles virus infection can synergize with IL-4 to promote IgE-class switching?
Unfortunately, you are barking up the wrong tree. Although most vaccines are Th2-promoting they are not IgE-specific. Well, duh. Try helminth vaccines!
@ Bob, no one is asking for the ban hammer, just a pit to deposit the brain droppings of a disruptive asshole. As long as you don’t come on here to make fun of people’s names in the infantile manner that you occasionally do with no provocation, I also don’t agree with the suggestion that you are relegated to a special place in blog comment hell.
Can we arrange somehow to bundle Sid’s posts with Th1Th2’s if you create the new thread?
Sid can be wrong but he is not engaged in an outright Denial-of-Service attack or gloating about making threads unreadable.
Thingy, please stop lying. You’re clinically unhinged. You are not working right now. No way in hell.
But that is now. You have said you used to work in a hospital. If not as an RN, what did you do there? And what hospital was it?
Ignoring the fact, already pointed out above, that the first half of this statement is actually false but granting it arguendo, what is this supposed to mean, anyway? Are you alleging that your subsophomoric libertarianism somehow perfectly aligns with morality as well, or is it just an irrelevancy? The property rights that you moon and slaver over are also a product of “government force.” Do they have no “moral weight,” thus making it perfectly fine to take whatever I can get away with?
Dear Thingy, please read the paper you cited. The answer to your first demand “Show me it was the Rubella” is Figure 2B from the paper you cited, top right corner of page 358. Fail.
Second, primary immune responses never produce germline antibodies. Nope. Only unselected B cells from a polyclonal response do that. We fail undergraduates that can’t grasp this concept by week four of the into to immunology class.
Third, “Do you deny that measles virus infection can synergize with IL-4 to promote IgE-class switching?” Yes. I deny that. If the B cell was specific for a measles antigen and was co-cultured with IL-4 in the total absence of any other cytokines then it COULD happen. However, these are not measles specific B cells – as shown by the fact that they are producing germline transcripts and the fact that the IgE transcript was produced from the Ramos cell line which is NOT specific for measles. Further, the authors never tested antigen or infection plus IL-4, they only tested IL-4 alone so you have no data.
By definition Th2 cytokines induce class switch to IgG4 and IgE antibody isotypes. So your comment “Although most vaccines are Th2-promoting they are not IgE-specific” is equivalent to saying that “A does not equal A”. Sorry, logic fail, you have violated the definition of part of your pseudonym and said that a tautology is incorrect. You may as well claim that just because someone has no pulse, is not breathing, and was buried in a coffin three weeks ago doesn’t mean they are dead.
Hey, Thingy, you were the one that connected measles rash to IgE following my comment of “vaccines don’t induce any IgE production” with “Oh really? Two words. Measles rash.” Now you acknowledge that measles rash is not an acute hypersensitivity reaction, but it was your mistake to associate measles rash and IgE mediated anaphlyaxis in the first place. And, no, measles rash is not a delayed type hypersensitivity reaction anymore than it is an acute hypersenstivity reaction. Time frame and symptoms are still wrong, DTH reactions come on in 2 days and can be treated with corticosteroids, if you give those to someone with a measles infection you’ll kill them. Fail.
You ask “When did I say I was an RN?” About twenty different posts over on Mothering before you got banned from there. (Thanks for the link lilady). And again, you were the one that linked the measles rash to IgE anaphylaxis. I don’t expect you to be consistent with anything known to be true but could you please manage to be consistent with yourself? Internal consistency is a great way to reduce the dose of meds your psych nurses need to give you.
I made a suggestion several days ago about Thingy. It derives its *jollies* by disrupting the thread and by feeding of Its immense need to have attention.
Could the Troll’s comments be put in moderation purdah for a few days? When Troll’s comments are released after a day or two…or three or four…we probably would be all commenting on another topic. It might not stop the Troll, but it sure would piss-off Troll and prevent It from getting its *jollies* and deriving pleasure from Its disruptive activities.
@ Jay Chaplin: I don’t recall a claim of being a R.N…but rather vague references i.e. “when I worked in the hospital” and “in the hospital where I work”, blah..blah..blah..
It is not qualified to work in any capacity in the health care field…and not qualified to work as clerical worker or in a housekeeping department of a health care facility. It does not work in a laboratory, in any capacity, no less as a trained lab tech. It is unemployable and on the dole, cycling in and out of custodial care…either in a psychiatric hospital or in a substance abuse re-hab facility.
On 2/17/09, for instance, Th1Th2 wrote “I am an RN but I quit for the reason that I don’t want to be associated with the putative practices of Modern Medicine” over on the “I’m not vaccinating” thread at sMothering. You know, impersonating a medical professional can get you locked up – again.
lilady,
A few advantages of a dedicated ‘troll thread’ for Th1Th2, as compared to, say, automatically shunting comments into moderation, is less work for Orac over the long haul after an initial bit of work setting up the thread (at least, that would be my hope):
– Th1Th2 can post as often as she likes on any topic of her choosing, and anyone else can respond/engage as desired, without dragging other threads off-topic, derailing them with her incoherent rants, and so on. She can even link to new vaccine-related posts as she likes to stay current.
– Th1Th2 is stil freely posting on Respectful Insolence, so contra Schechter’s (once again) dishonest characterization of the proposal, she has not been banned, nor could she make any claims to being censored (although “not allowed to comment on Respectful Insolence” and “freedom of speech rights abridged” are rather separate things). I think the free-wheeling nature of RI comments are one of the reasons the blog is so popular so keeping that structure intact is valuable even if the most pernicious troll is kept a little bit outside the main posting action.
– As far as I know (e.g. from my own blog, if I am correct in extrapolating it to the system used for ScienceBlogs) moderated comments have to be vetted manually by the blogger, which means every day Orac would have to spend time – better spent blogging, reading, or engaging in other, doubtless better activities – going through moderated Th1Th2 comments. By contrast, an auto-dump to a troll thread (if this is possible) would mean no additional workload after the initial setup.
– We can go engage with Th1Th2 whenever we feel like it, or not, without regular comment threads on vaccine-related posts constantly devolving into a mess of her incoherent posts and our attempts to pin her gelatinous arguments down to something coherent.
To be fair, at various times various folks HAVE called for the Thing to be banned. Mark M did so upthread, for example.
You have not made a single remark that is on the topic, which is Bob Sears’s HuffPo performance. Thus, one is left to ask whether there is a distinct subtopic that has crept in, and indeed there is: whether to sandbox you. Couching in terms of “topicality” a nervous suggestion that this should not be spoken of doesn’t work.
In view of the worsening petulance of your single-minded, narcissistic antics, it strikes me as a perfectly sound idea.
Nice catch. That’s going to leave a mark.
Thing writes she’s an RN:
h_ttp://www.mothering.com/community/t/1019774/non-vaxing-rn-mamas-and-others-need-some-support#post_13204015
I’m going to guess that she left the facility where she worked kicking and screaming, under the supervision of security, or by court order. Just a guess. She can clarify if she so chooses.
I have to see that. Give me the link.
So you’re an overt primary germ-line antibody denier then.
It’s not specific to measles. Is there a problem with that?
Before you parade your ignorance, which current vaccines in the market are IgE-specific?
Fool. A typical measles rash is NOT an anaphylaxis reaction. It is IgG-mediated of delayed type but NOT an anaphylaxis. How many times do I have to tell you that?
That is your opinion. Go on.
May be the reason corticosteroids are not used to treat a typical measles rash is because smart people don’t consider it as an anaphylactic reaction. Here’s your Fail grade.
Thanks to all the RI Regulars who located that particular post on mothering.com
*SFB* Troll: I am a Registered Nurse and you are a full-of- shit pathological liar.
With regards to the RN or whatever that means:
“Yesterday I was lying, today I’m telling the truth”
I have often viewed thingy as someone’s particularly effective game, instead of anything resembling an honest representation of someone’s opinions and thought processes. Sometimes its output is interesting in a “what will it come up with next” kind of way, since it seems to view niceties such as internal consistency and honesty as fripperies for others to engage in, and lists of logical fallacies as instruction manuals. I mean, really: now it’s asking for the link to a paper it cited. The utter completeness of its failure to engage with reality is fascinating.
But the end result remains– thingy’s screeds are orthogonal to reality, increasingly belligerent, and never conducive to fruitful discussion. And unlike most blogs, I enjoy the original posts and the comments here equally. Except for thingy’s.
And yes, I will refer to thingy as “it,” because I want to believe that its output is simply a game. Sometimes I am not so sure. If the posts by Th1Th2 actually reflect a person earnestly trying to communicate and engage with the world, then I am sorry… but really, it is neither kind nor constructive to argue with the belligerent maniac.
I’m just a mostly-lurker and infrequent commenter, but I strongly endorse the idea of a single dedicated thread into which all of Th1Th2’s posts are automatically diverted.
In which the troll gives medical advice to someone about their flu-like illness:
Source: h_ttp://www.mothering.com/community/t/1113060/flu-help-me-decide-if-we-need-to-go-to-the-doctor#post_14106856
Jesus Christ, the thing is married?
Ruben do it properly please. Check your quotes.
I’ve been over at “mothering”, reading the stupidity that Thing puts out as expert advice. There are some golden nuggets over there.
For example, reasonable people would read the following and infer that, indeed, vaccines don’t cause the disease:
Ah, but not unhappily married Thinger. She thinks it reads this:
“Cannot possibly cause even a mild form of the disease” = “Causes disease” in the world of the troll. And then, when someone points out to her that her proof contradicted what she wrote, she goes on to interpret what the person she was quoting probably really wanted to say. So she’s a mind reader on top of a failed RN.
I mean, I’ve been reading her rants here and thought she was misguided. I read her rants over there as well and am convinced she’s one french fry short of a basket. If we could just guide all her comments to a special website, then charge people a dollar a pop to see that abomination, like a circus thing, we could donate all that cash to some worthwhile cause.
That was “luminesce” who you quoted Reuben.
The concept that thingy is sane enough to have gottten married was just one hypothesis too far.
Whatever you want to say about Sid, his posts pass the Turing test.
Developmental Disabilities Increasing in US- CDC stats
http://www.cdc.gov/Features/dsDev_Disabilities/
Over the last 12 years, the
Prevalence of DDs has increased 17.1%âthat’s about 1.8 million more children with DDs in 2006â2008 compared to a decade earlier;
Prevalence of autism increased 289.5%;
Prevalence of ADHD increased 33.0%; and,
Prevalence of hearing loss decreased 30.9%.
Grandma, could you at least spew something original? This wouldn’t have anything to do with changes in diagnostic criteria? Increased diagnoses either via better recognition or over-diagnosis? Should we also attribute a decrease in prevalence of hearing loss to “over vaccination with teh toxins”? It is consistent with your other prevarications after all.
Can you please stop harping on Dr. Sears measles cases 2008-there are other
serious issues like why the increse above (no it’s not diagnosis.)
“Dear Thingy, please read the paper you cited. The answer to your first demand “Show me it was the Rubella” is Figure 2B from the paper you cited, top right corner of page 358. Fail.”
And then you write “I have to see that. Give me the link.”
Ha! It was your own link! Ha, ha, ha! Give you back your own link. You really are special aren’t you?
The new term for the fanatics pushing the current schedule-Vaccinationists as in
Creationists.
What happened in the mid-1990s to have caused the incidence of autism/autism spectrum disorders to increase so dramatically…hmmmm?
http://www.theautismeducationsite.com/2010/06/11/history-of-autism-in-the-dsm-dsm-i-to-dsm-iv/
We have already discussed the changing of diagnostic criteria in the DSM IV, here:
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2011/08/gaps_in_a_doctors_reasoning_about_vaccines.php
(See my posting at # 64)
“P.S. I never responded to the clever poster a while back who drew the conclusion that the “expanded” diagnostic criteria for ASD has resulted in the curing of mental retardation…it gave me, the parent of a profoundly mentally retarded son with autistic-like behaviors, an immense chuckle…belated thanks.”
@lurker – you’re drive-by postings are becoming extremely boring, seriously. Like we haven’t been over and over this about a thousand times – the search box is your friend.
Also, care to explain the 30% decrease in hearing loss? Could it be because of the lack of deafness-causing childhood diseases due to vaccinations?
@Robert: Would you defend a hotel-owner’s right to ignore the state fire safety code on the grounds that there had never been a fatal fire in that particular hotel and there was no evidence that hotel guests were going to light candles or smoke in bed? Similarly, should shopping malls that have never had fatal fires be allowed to ignore the fire safety codes?
If so, would your definition of fire safety at least require the posting of prominent notices “This hotel/store/building is not in compliance with $state fire safety regulations. Enter at your own risk”? Or should I be expected to track down every building owner and interview them about materials, the presence or absence of sprinkler systems and fire alarms, and whether the fire escape doors have been locked from the outside, before entering the building?
This is a thread about Dr. Sears so get over it. I’m sure it is rather uncomfortable for you to have the repercussions of the anti-vaccine “movement” discussed but too bad. So measles resurgence when nearly eradicated is not serious? Will it be serious enough for you when there are increases in the above due to congenital rubella syndrome? Measles encephalitis? Mumps deafness? Oh hey, let’s bring back Hib for ol’ times sake because there just haven’t been enough cases of gruesome Epiglottitis and meningitis in infants. Screw developing a better pertussis vaccine, whooping cough and related infant deaths aren’t serious right? Right?
@Vicki – in Robert’s world, it is easier to punish the guilty after the fact than to worry about enforcing any regulations to prevent things from happening in the first place….I call it the “why spend an ounce for prevention when we can spend a pound to cure….”
Re:Hearing loss-development of newer and more approriate antibiotics to treat ear
infections common in childhood.
To whom it may concern-
Like all your ridiculous answers to Th1Th2 show maturity, judgement, appropriate
content, and are so so relevant. You all get off on them-it isn’t really mandatory to
comment. I have to weed through them too! Grow up!
lurker, so the reduction of some of the major causes of deafness like Congenital Rubella Syndrome, mumps, measles and Hib had less effect than antibiotics?
Prove it.
@Chris- Citations please
We are not discussing treating ear infections in an older child…but rather the testing of newborns and infants to identify hearing loss.
http://report.nih.gov/NIHfactsheets/ViewFactSheet.aspx?csid=104
There are many interventions, including cochlear implants, that can help these children to ameliorate/overcome hearing deficits.
How about the many vaccine-preventable diseases which leave an infant or a young child with profound hearing loss?
Might the availability of vaccines to prevent these diseases, have an effect on the number of children reported as having deafness?
Lurker, we see what you did there…and we’re calling you out on it.
You linked to an article about increased incidence of developmental disabilities. We provided you with information about the changing diagnostic criteria.
Stop acting like the troll you are…by flitting away from the topic you brought up…to a new topic.
What impact has the changing diagnostic criteria had on the incidence of autism spectrum disorder, lurker?
You need to cite your source, but here are some:
Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2009 Mar;28(3):173-5.
An office-based prospective study of deafness in mumps.
Bull World Health Organ. 1999;77(1):3-14.
Mumps and mumps vaccine: a global review
Int J Pediatr Otorhinolaryngol. 1998 Jan;42(3):225-31.
Aetiology of deafness among children at the Buguruni School for the Deaf in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. (“Among the children with acquired deafness, the cause was unknown in 77 (24.2%); meningitis in 76 (23.9%), ototoxicity in 66 (20.8%), mumps in 53 (16.7%) febrile convulsions in five (1.5%), otitis media in 28 (8.8%) and measles in 13 (4.1%)”)
Auris Nasus Larynx. 1986;13 Suppl 1:S55-7.
Deafness following mumps: the possible pathogenesis and incidence of deafness.
Otolaryngol Clin North Am. 1978 Feb;11(1):63-9.
Viral causes of sudden inner ear deafness.
Ear Hear. 1987 Apr;8(2):74-7.
Profound childhood deafness in Nigeria: a three year survey.
Pediatr Infect Dis J. 1993 May;12(5):389-94.
Outcomes of bacterial meningitis in children: a meta-analysis.
N Z Med J. 1988 Nov 9;101(857):758-60.
Bacterial meningitis in childhood: a 13 year review.
J Infect. 1984 Jul;9(1):30-42.
A review of Haemophilus influenzae infections in Cambridge 1975-1981
@ lilady:
And fasten your seatbeats- it’s about to happen again!
According to Jon Brock ( Cracking the Enigma blog), changes in the DSM-5 will probably lead to lower numbers being diagnosed with ASDs, especially AS- based on preliminary studies @ Yale.
Of course, AoA have been shrieking about this for months- shouldn’t they be happy, after all, now less people will have autism; perhaps they can take credit that their anti-vaxx haranguing has caused the decrease! Less vax = less ASDs. I wouldn’t be shocked in the least.
Some clarity:
“Michelle’s children weren’t injured -except for the one who has asthma which is on the
increase in fully vaccinated children. I don’t think asthma is rising in unvaccinated
children because all the stats show high vaccination compliance in the US.”
THIS IS IMPORTANT:
My son with asthma (now 2 years) developed symptoms at 5 weeks old – prior to ANY vaccinations (we delayed the newborn Hep B vaccine to his 2 month well child visit, aside from that he was vaccinated according to schedule).
My daughter (now 5) who was on a delayed vaccine schedule suffered from two vax-preventable illnesses – rotavirus and chicken pox. Thankfully, the rotavirus, while VERY nasty for a week or so, ran its course without incident. She was a year old. She contracted chicken pox at age 2 after exposure to her grandmother who had shingles. She had a very light case of chicken pox – high fever and a handful of lesions. Because the case was light, I did get her vaccinated a few years later.
She was not injured by either disease, but I think what really hit me is that VACCINE PREVENTABLE DISEASES STILL EXIST. I couldn’t rely on herd immunity to protect my kids until they were older. Rotavirus and chicken pox are generally mild; pertussis or measles, not so much. If your kid can catch chicken pox, they can catch pertussis.
I live in a woo-pocket of non-vaccinating parents, so it’s not surprising that vaccine-preventable diseases are so common here.
So I decided to take advice from the real experts – CDC, CHOP, my children’s pediatrician, all of whom whole-heartedly recommend vaccinating on schedule. Dr. Bob seems like a nice enough guy, but I was crazy to trust his advice over the advice of the experts.
Sorry, lilady, but my son’s specials education program was a direct offshoot of the deaf and hard of hearing program. When he started there a bit over twenty years ago the biggest special ed. program was deaf/hard of hearing with about 80 kids in a school with 300 kids (regular plus special ed.).
My younger kids attended the regular ed. program there (it was only one school beyond their neighborhood school). When my youngest left fifteen years later the deaf/hard of hearing program was down to half a dozen students.
So I needed to react to lurker pulling a grand pronouncement about antibiotics out of thin air. And that she insisted that I provide citations while she does not.
I also found this paper (they are often old, since the vaccines started to be effective forty years ago): Factors Associated With Deafness in Young Children. Going over the disparate thoughts on what caused childhood deafness, they did a survey of parents of both deaf and hearing children. Some of the results:
Michelle, my son had seizures due to dehydration from rotavirus and was taken to the hospital by ambulance.
So you’re saying your son was sick prior to any vaccination? I see.
Vaccines do not prevent primary infection.
Why did you vaccinate your daughter who has previously had natural chicken pox? It doesn’t make any sense. Anyway, your child is welcome to join Shingles Club anytime.
Never rely on a myth.
I don’t have the special privilege to access the full article. Share.
Reading comprehension. There might be hope for you yet.
Frack!
She told you, “because the case was light”! Scratch what I wrote about reading comprehension.
Aaaaaaaaand that’s why we don’t rely on your “experience” as an RN or a human being.
Also, STFU or STHU, whichever you’re using at the moment.
Source of “one in six children now have a developmental disability” (which I believe Dr. Bob has cited as more proof teh vaxinez is ebil):
Boyle et al. (2011) Trends in the Prevalence of Developmental Disabilities in US Children, 1997â2008 Pediatrics. 2011 Jun;127(6):1034-42. Epub 2011 May 23. doi: 10.1542/peds.2010-2989)
I emphasized the “parent-reported” as the data aren’t validated by actual diagnostic or medical records. Clicking on my name gets you to the post where I discuss the issue.
It’s called connecting the dots. Read her story again.
If you’re going to ask the “experts”, they’ll gonna tell you otherwise.
The “one is six” also has a statistical basis. One standard deviation below the mean leaves about 16% on the lower part of the curve, which is around one in six.
Apparently, you didn’t. You still had to ask why she was vaccinating again.
What? That doesn’t even make sense. “They’ll gonna tell you”? They will gonna tell you?
All I have to say to that is this.
@ Chris:
@ my # 145 above:
thus my visions of statisticians cringing in unison.
I see, Denise. My comment serves as an explanation of your observation.
Then why did you link to it, grits-for-brains?
Might I again urge you to visit a doctor to get your medications checked out.
Might I also add that I am TRULY thankful you are not a nurse anymore (if you ever were).
Her son at 5 weeks old was sick prior to any vaccination. So what’s the connection of vaccination to her sick child? Duh.
Re: Chicken pox.
Evidence of immunity includes any of the following:
1. Documentation of two doses of varicella vaccine
2. Blood tests that show you are immune to varicella or laboratory confirmation of prior disease
3. Born in the United States before 1980, excluding health-care workers, pregnant women, and immunocompromised persons. These individuals need to meet one of the other criteria for evidence of immunity.
4. Receipt from a healthcare provider of a) a diagnosis of chickenpox or b) verification of a history of chickenpox
5. Receipt from a healthcare provider of a) a diagnosis of herpes zoster (shingles) or b) verification of a history of herpes zoster (shingles).
You do NOT need the chickenpox vaccine, if you meet any of the above criteria for evidence of immunity.
h_ttp://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/vac-faqs-gen.htm
As if the virus will leave the body after primary infection.
Welcome to Shingles Club.
Ahh, that’s better.
Check #199 and find out who I was replying to.
But I am more interested in Jay’s claim “that Th2 cytokines would lead to the production of IgE – which vaccines do not.”
Hence, the article.
@ Chris:
You know, I’ve thought about sharing my list of “statements that make the SB community cringe” but I’m afraid it might be mistaken for an AoA Greatest Hits Collection: I don’t want to be accused of plagiarism.
None?
Use your imagination. You guys are good at it right?
Are you saying you didn’t quote an article you don’t have full access to? Did I miss something?
What’s going on with these English-speaking people?
JGC asked:
Then let’s find the hallmark, shall we?
Infection of human B lymphocytes with MMR vaccine…
Is that English or what?
Yes, we are very good at that. We imagine you huddled over a PC in a very unfortunate relative’s basement, scoffing at your prescribed lithium, depakote, thorazine and other evil medications, spittle flying as you vow revenge upon the evil medical establishment that ran you out of town for questioning their methods.
Of course, I could be wrong. It could be a spare bedroom.
@ Denice Walter: Yes, I’ve been watching the discussions at AoA, about the changeover to DSM V criteria for autism. It’s downright hilarious…and pathetic.
Few, if any of the articles at that rag, ever advocate for real causes. They espouse a libertarian agenda regarding “health freedom”, not realizing that many libertarians like Offal do not want to pay for anyone to have ongoing services past the age of 21. Hell, Offal does not want to pay school taxes…no less special classes and therapies for disabled children, including those on “the spectrum”.
When all their *interventions* fail to *cure* their children, what will their options be? Funding for school programs and ancillary services funded by school taxes, comes to a dead stop, when their kids “age out” at age 21. Programs after that (day habilitation, day treatment, vocational training) are funded by Medicaid and there are long waiting lists for entry into those programs.
What will happen to these kids who need ongoing care, past the time, when parents can no longer care for them at home? Do the parents who devote their time to anti-vax activities and who emotionally and financially support their *heroes*, such as Wakefield and other quacks, think that group homes providing appropriate care are *just waiting* for their kids?
An older generation advocated to have children with disabilities provided with a free publicly-funded appropriate education. My generation advocated to close large institutions and to provide small group homes within the community. We were all somewhere on the *political spectrum* but fought for a just common cause. What the hell have these anti-vaxers ever done for their kids, except moan and bemoan their *situation*…and isolated themselves and their children from society?
Private charities will take care of them. And, of course, if private charities do not, then the parents, or the county, or the state will be at fault and can be sued.
I wish I was being facetious with this, but a libertarian actually told me this all but verbatim a few days ago.
@ Michelle K. Thanks for sharing. Please ignore the Trolls. They have a penchant for attacking any new posters here…in their feeble attempts to get attention.
I had a *personal* stalking troll, when I was a newbie poster. I think Orac has put my stalking troll in moderation purdah. Another RI regular has her own personal stalking troll who uses a multitude of sock puppets.
The RI Regulars have your back, so please come back and post again.
@lilady-
See the “Greater Good”- a woman whose son was injured by a vaccine asks the same question.
@ Stu: Presently, group homes are 100 % funded by Medicaid, with the Feds, State and County of Origin kicking in…with public tax dollars. Day Programs for adults age 21 and beyond, are also funded by Medicaid…and Medicare. What would happen if Ron Paul or Junior Paul were elected President and appointed their cronies/fellow travelers to *key positions* in the administration?
Residents of group home are provided with $ 250/year clothing allowance, and a monthly *stipend* of $35/month…funded by Medicaid. How far does that money go to clothe someone and to provide for other expenses?
Medicaid does not fund intensive PT, OT, speech or behavioral therapies. Rather than waste their money on supporting their heroes and unproven, sometimes dangerous therapies, it would be far better, IMO, to set up a Special Needs Trust, to be funded upon the parents’ deaths, so that their kids’ intensive therapies are paid for.
When my child was alive, I paid for intensive PT sessions for him. You need hundreds of thousands of dollars to fund a Special Needs Trust, in order to generate enough income to pay for therapies…without depleting the Trust.
@lilady: Well, now you’ve hit a pet issue of mine. Ever since the Bush administration started calling the estate tax “Death Tax”, I’ve been floating this little idea…
If they insist on calling it “Death Tax”, let’s make it a “Death Tax”. Where estate taxes go into a special fund to care for orphans, special needs care when parents are deceased or cannot care for their children, to replace SSI benefits for minors, the works. It could do all of that and then some.
Of course, Robert would be more than welcome to donate to this trust as well.
Ruben,
LMFAO. Talk about misinformed consent eh Orac? Here’s a child who having had natural chicken pox was brought by the mother for a varicella shot and no one from your SBM community had ever explained why such vaccine is not needed. Come on what are you guys thinking? The more the merrier? You guys are so dangerous. Poor kiddo had to be infected twice.
@lurker:
First, go to the “Search” box and put the phrase “Greater Good” into it and Search. Orac has discussed the film. Second, click on the link to Orac’s post about the film. Third, comment there.
“The Greater Good” is nothing but clever propaganda.
@ Stu: Wanna bet…that Offal has already looked into *spending down the assets* for his parents to qualify them for Medicaid-funded nursing home care?
Wanna bet…that Offal has not purchased long-term care insurance…not because he doesn’t *believe* in it…but because he wants public tax dollars to pay for nursing home care, should he ever require that level of care.
Didn’t I read somewhere, that Offal and his father were involved in law suit, because of some shady real estate deal?
lurker, from Factors Associated With Deafness in Young Children (emphasis added):
So how many pregnant women did you expose to rubella?
And from the American Speech-Language-Hearing Association website:
http://www.asha.org/public/hearing/disorders/causes.htm
Congenital Causes
The term congenital hearing loss implies that the hearing loss is present at birth. It can include hereditary hearing loss or hearing loss due to other factors present either in utero (prenatal) or at the time of birth.
Genetic factors are thought to cause more than 50% of all incidents of congenital hearing loss in children (4). Genetic hearing loss may be autosomal dominant, autosomal recessive, or X-linked (related to the sex chromosome).
In autosomal dominant hearing loss , one parent who carries the dominant gene for hearing loss and typically has a hearing loss passes it on to the child. In this case there is at least a 50% probability that the child will also have a hearing loss. The probability is higher if both parents have the dominant gene (and typically both have a hearing loss) or if both grandparents on one side of the family have hearing loss due to genetic causes. Because at least one parent usually has a hearing loss, there is prior expectation that the child may have a hearing loss.
In autosomal recessive hearing loss , both parents who typically have normal hearing, carry a recessive gene. In this case the probability of the child having a hearing loss is 25%. Because both parents usually have normal hearing, and because no other family members have hearing loss, there is no prior expectation that the child may have a hearing loss.
In X-linked hearing loss, the mother carries the recessive trait for hearing loss on the sex chromosome and passes it on to males, but not to females.
There are some genetic syndromes,in which, hearing loss is one of the known characteristics. Some examples are Down syndrome (abnormality on a gene), Usher syndrome (autosomal recessive), Treacher Collins syndrome (autosomal dominant), Crouzon syndrome (autosomal dominant), and Alport syndrome (X-linked).
Other causes of congenital hearing loss that are not hereditary in nature include prenatal infections, illnesses, toxins consumed by the mother during pregnancy or other conditions occurring at the time of birth or shortly thereafter. These conditions typically cause sensorineural hearing loss ranging from mild to profound in degree. Examples include:
* Intrauterine infections including rubella (German measles), cytomegalovirus, and herpes simplex virus
* Complications associated with the Rh factor in the blood
* Prematurity
* Maternal diabetes
* Toxemia during pregnancy
* Lack of oxygen (anoxia)
lurker, So how many pregnant women did you expose to rubella?
Acquired Causes
Acquired hearing loss is a hearing loss which appears after birth, at any time in one’s life, perhaps as a result of a disease, a condition, or an injury. The following are examples of conditions that can cause acquired hearing loss in children are:
* Ear infections (otitis media) (link to specific section above)
* Ototoxic (damaging to the auditory system) drugs
* Meningitis
* Measles
* Encephalitis
* Chicken pox
* Influenza
* Mumps
* Head injury
* Noise exposure
lurker, So how many little kids did you expose to meningitis, measles, encephalitis, chicken pox, influenza or mumps?
You girls are just awesome.
Th1Th2, you are obviously someone who puts a lot of time into this particular topic, and has very strong views about it (forgive any presumptions). Have you every thought about running your own blog about these issues?
Dear Thingy, @284 you wrote “But I am more interested in Jay’s claim “that Th2 cytokines would lead to the production of IgE – which vaccines do not.”
Hence, the article.”
The article you linked to showed induction of IgE following infection of B cells by Rubella, not measles. There was no Th2 effect, as there were no T cells in the experiment with the Ramos cell line. The effect that they saw, which was miniscule by comparison with the weak IL-4 only control and germline/non-specific/likely never translated to protein, was a direct result of infection.
Great, you posted a link. To try and prove YOUR point that measles rash was caused by IgE induced by Th2 skewing following MMR. The paper, which you admit that you never bothered to read – and no I will not violate copyright laws for you find a library – directly contradicts your stance. No Th2 skewing, no measles induced IgE. Sorry, fail and a new “entitlement fail”.
Thingy @ 289
Thingy, are you seriously arguing that B lymphocytes develop a rash if incubated with MMR vaccine?
Insane troll has descended to the “I know you are, but what am I,” phase of its comments….
@Chris @lilady @300 @301- An answer to the question-probably as many as you did since there was no vaccines when I was growing up- (I’m 68 and lilady is about 60,Chris is her 50’s.) I had German measles, chicken pox, mumps maybe measles; everyone in my school was quarantined to home when it happened-
So tell me you how many did you infect? Chris maybe you gave your son measles since you weren’t vaccinated.
Thanks to this thread I spent a little time looking over some of the forum postings at mothering.com. I felt as though I’d crossed over to some sort of alternative universe of misinformation, faulty logic and just plain nonsense.
I have to give those of you who are medical professionals trying to engage them credit for having to struggle with such crap.
@lurker: I’m a bit younger than you (50) but know that there WERE vaccines when you were growing up – were you never vaccinated against smallpox? I was, my brother was (my lucky sister, being born in 1967, escaped that vaccine as it was no longer endemic in the US). So your statement of “there was (sic) no vaccines when I was growing up” is false. My mother – who is significantly older then 68 – had the smallpox vaccine.
As far as how many did I infect with measles, rubella, mumps? I don’t know. I DO know I got mumps from a neighbor (my brother luckily escaped it), chicken pox from a boy at school who infected 15 out of the 25 in the class – which I gave to my brother and (then) baby sister. Since my rubella rash was so mild, my mother didn’t realize I had it (they didn’t call it the 3 day measles for nothing – and I was prone to heat rash anyway) until the 2nd day…fortunately I had not been out except in our back yard for several days so we don’t *think* I infected anyone with that.
My mother was very prompt at plopping us into bed and enforcing isolation at the sign of any illness so we generally didn’t infect too many people, even within the family as siblings were forbidden to enter the room of the sick child and we did have separate bedrooms.
I couldn’t tell you how many I infected with pertussis because no one recognized I had it until about 3 weeks in when I was still coughing till I was breathless and vomiting. My MD called it “asthma” but did finally give me cough syrup with codeine to calm the cough. Many of my coworkers went through the same illness at about the same time, so the index case is questionable (all are/were adults in whom the vaccine had probably worn off) but it wasn’t until late in the outbreak that anyone realized what was happening since at that time they weren’t recommending re-vaccination for adults. I don’t think it was ever reported to the state Board of Health.
lurker, we know you don’t know if you gave rubella to pregnant women. I may have infected some too. That is not the point.
The point was that you dismissed it as a mild disease, and you needed to learn that it was a major cause of disability between WWII and into the 1960s, when a vaccine was developed (I know my younger sister received the vaccines).
It was also one of the citations in answer to you glib “Re:Hearing loss-development of newer and more approriate antibiotics to treat ear infections common in childhood.”
I should add that when my kids got ear infections in the 1990s they were given amoxicillin, a kind of semi-synthetic penicillin. And the only reason to change antibiotics is due to antibiotic resistance.
In the futre, lurker, when you make statements, be prepared to back them. Because you were very wrong about ear infections being a major cause of deafness.
@ lurker: I will answer any questions about my childhood illnesses, AFTER you explain why you posted this:
Developmental Disabilities Increasing in US- CDC stats
http://www.cdc.gov/Features/dsDev_Disabilities/
Over the last 12 years, the
Prevalence of DDs has increased 17.1%âthat’s about 1.8 million more children with DDs in 2006â2008 compared to a decade earlier;
Prevalence of autism increased 289.5%;
Prevalence of ADHD increased 33.0%; and,
Prevalence of hearing loss decreased 30.9%.
Posted by: lurker | March 28, 2012 6:32 PM
Lurker, we see what you did there…and we’re calling you out on it.
You linked to an article about increased incidence of developmental disabilities. We provided you with information about the changing diagnostic criteria.
Stop acting like the troll you are…by flitting away from the topic you brought up…to a new topic.
What impact has the changing diagnostic criteria had on the incidence of autism spectrum disorder, lurker?
@Mi Dawn- yes I had the small pox vaccine-I was refering to the MMR(V)-
@lilady
New Study: Autism Linked To Environment
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=autism-rise-driven-by-environment
@lilady-
New Study: Autism Linked To Environment
h ttp://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=autism-rise-driven-by-environment
You said:
and then…
Are you done arguing with yourself?
No $#!+. So you want to convince everyone that you don’t have any T cells. I see.
And of course, what would I expect of someone who is also a primary germline antibody denier?
From that article:
The factors are prenatal, just like Congenital Rubella Syndrome.
Study on “Lurker”: h_ttp://www.techspot.com/news/44394-study-internet-trolls-are-drunk-with-power.html
Jay (RI’s Charlie Chaplin),
Yohooo…
h_ttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7668036
Something tells me that RI’s Mortimer Snerd thinks that’s an insult.
Are you still waiting for that fresh batch of Thorazine, Thingy? You’re getting less and less coherent.
Re: http://www.techspot.com/news/44394-study-internet-trolls-are-drunk-with-power.html
Ren..a pox on you for not posting:
WARNING: Put any hot drinks down before reading
Now I’m stuck cleaning up my laptop screen and keyboard…a terrible waste of a great cup of coffee 🙂
Those medical professionals you were referring to are in Exhibit A of post #269 in which they were found guilty to putting a child in harm’s way. Also found liable were the mother of the child, who ironically took advice from real experts like the CDC*, and an idiot spectator named Ruben.
*The CDC said NO, DO NOT VACCINATE!.
“The committee finds that evidence convincingly supports a causal relationship between some vaccines and some adverse eventsâsuch as MMR, varicella zoster, influenza, hepatitis B, meningococcal, and tetanus-containing vaccines linked to anaphylaxis.”
http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2011/Adverse-Effects-of-Vaccines-Evidence-and-Causality.aspx
Someone’s mad that she got her RN license revoked and is now pretending to be a lawyer (on top of pretending to know basic biology) by tossing around words like “found guilty” (though there was no criminal trial) and “found liable” (though there was no civil trial). Tell us, troll, who found who “guilty” and/or “liable”? You?
‘Cause your opinions matters SO much to all of us.
Also, it’s “Reuben”, with an E, like my grandfather.
@Ren: I second Lilady. That picture was too much, puckered lips and all.
Cherry picking quotes, lurker? It continues with: “Additionally, evidence favors rejection of five vaccine-adverse event relationships, including MMR vaccine and autism and inactivated influenza vaccine and asthma episodes.”
And it concludes with “However, for the majority of cases (135 vaccine-adverse event pairs), the evidence was inadequate to accept or reject a causal relationship. Overall, the committee concludes that few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines.”
Did you notice the words: ‘”concludes that few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines”?
“Are you still waiting for that fresh batch of Thorazine, Thingy? You’re getting less and less coherent.”
Stu: I believe that SFB Troll refuses anti-psychotic medication. It is all part of Troll’s *con game*…to stay on the dole, to cycle in and out of the mental health system (to have internet access, a bed and regular meals).
Does anyone know any other sites that Th1Th2 has posted on? The mothering.com site is a treasure trove of *Thingisms*.
Found on sciencebasedmedicine:
# Th1Th2 on 03 Apr 2009 at 2:52 pm
Weing,
Vaccines do not prevent diseases. They are designed to induce diseases, obviously. Feed a malnourished kid with good food and the kid will survive. However, if you vaccinate them, the kid will deteriorate and even die.
What made you think I have not? Check #34.
Dang, chris at 324 beat me to it.
REuben,
That’s supposed to be a metaphor?? I don’t know but I have a few more choices which I considered to be more appropriate (i.e., stupid, ignorant, negligent, insane among others). You see I’ve already used the word “idiot” just so you know.
Indeed, by moving the goalpost.
There’s a metric assload at SBM, of course.
Dear Th1Th2, thank you for providing a link to another paper you have not read. Shall I deconstruct it for you and point out where it does not support your spewings, or will you simply deny it because you won’t go to the library to read what it actually says.
Going on the abstract alone doesn’t work. You have now posted two links that directly contradict your thesis.
Take off your primary germline antibody denialism first then you can proceed but until then entertain me with your myth.
Ooh, here are some more:
But there exist another form of immunity that does not require antibody production and will make all vaccines worthless. Do you know what it is? Itâs easy.
There is no room for any nutritional value in vaccines whatsoever.
Where did you learn that superstitious belief that humans make formaldehyde. First, humans DO NOT synthesize formaldehyde. Second, the presence of endogenous formaldehyde in your body is a result of metabolism from exposure to exogenous formaldehyde. Since formaldehyde is a toxic element, they are further broken down into a lesser toxin until they are completely eliminated from the body.
Detoxification of formaldehyde is a physiologic event because it is TOXIC to humans! You guys are hilarious. LOL
I think this is my favorite:
Think of adjuvants like a bottle of food seasoning. It is a blend of different spices that enhances food flavor.
A poison is a poison no matter how small.
Ooh, here come the precious bodily fluids:
According to Maslowâs Hierarchy of Needs, food, air and water are among manâs PHYSIOLOGIC NEEDS. Without them, man cannot survive since they are inherent part of all living things. Safety concerns only apply once they become toxic or polluted. Vaccines, however, do NOT belong to this category since they are made from toxins, viruses, bacteria and toxic substances let alone biologically modified and chemically denatured. They are inherently unsafe. They are just being modified to become less toxic.
No, wait — NEW favorite:
Good health does not carry any risk.
Character assassination is not my forte.
Thatâs why responsible parents should always be at their sides to assist them in walking without getting their knees scraped, to clear out obstructions that might cause tripping, etc. Now, if you think that abrasions, lacerations etc are like everyday scenario that kids MUST endure, then obviously something is wrong with your parenting skills.
@ Rueben: I find it hard to believe that *SFB Troll ever had a registered nurse license…see my post # 244:
*SFB* Troll: I am a Registered Nurse and you are a full-of- shit pathological liar.
@ Jay Chaplin: You have done a superb job at *addressing* *SFB Troll’s” comments.
Aside from convincing Orac to wield the ban hammer against the odious troll…sometimes, in order to frustrate Its constant need for attention and engagement, I talk *around* the *SFB Troll*
@ Narad: One of the classics from SBM was Harriet Hall’s comment about the Troll’s inanities:
“…like trying to nail Jello to the wall”.
Of course, there was really no call for Harriet to insult a perfectly good dessert that way.
Thanks a lot Stu…but you did not preface your comment with..
WARNING: Put any hot drinks down before reading 🙂
So wait a second. This is too good to be true. Is Thingy saying that the only way the body gets infected with disease is through cuts and scrapes? If a child (what about an adult?) trips and scratches his knee, that’s the ONLY vector for infection?
Boy, my Cystic Fibrosis strongly disagrees! Does Thingy realize that merely by breathing, you pick up millions of bateria every day? Most people slough them off without issue, but CF patients collect respiratory infections like Pokemon. I have three species of Psuedomonas, a particularly nasty strain of Mycobacteria, Staphylococcus, and some minor hangers-on in my lungs. I’ve been on strong antibiotics for the last year because of my circus of bacteria. And yet my chest was never torn assunder in a violent accident.
When you pass by a puddle of standing meltwater (I live in AK) that’s been recently driven over, miniscule water droplets still hang in the air, and with them, Mycobacteria. Which you inhale–unwittingly.
So how does Thingy explain my infections? Or does she ignore any infection that’s not associated with an immunization?
WARNING: Remember what happened last December when the SFB Troll’s head exploded:
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2011/12/now_ive_seen_it_all_an_anti-vaccine_chil.php
460
Man, I go away for 24 hours and look at this place! 459 posts! What on earth have you been feeding the Thingy? There’s thingyshit all over the carpet and walls and how are we going to get that Jean-stench out of the drapes? Would somebody at least light some Respectful Incense⢠(Rapturous Reason is my fave) and let’s try to get this joint cleaned up before ol’ Blinky Box shows up and reads us the riot act.
Posted by: Pareidolius | December 19, 2011 11:16 PM
461
I am innocent!!! I scarcely fed SFB Thingy troll…I merely named it and baptized it with RI holy water.
Yuck, the place reeks of Thingy’s brown brain matter…who knew that its head was going to explode.
We really need to clean up the blog and “terminally disinfect” sh** for brains troll.
Posted by: lilady | December 19, 2011 11:55 PM
Thingy: Which hospital and which job?
Stu: I saw that last comment a while ago and laughed. I’m sure Th1Th2 must have been mistaking zer baby dolls for children. Seriously, what kind of parent thinks that kids should never ever learn to cope with a scrape or a bruise? It’s part of growing up.
I love it! Personally, I suspect that Thingy is really strongly PRO-vax and has decided to take the hit in credibility and be hated everywhere by posting anti-vax drivel so inconsistent and moronic that even the hardcore anti-vax crowd over at sMothering didn’t want to be associated with it. I’ll say it again, Thingy single-handedly spews out enough garbage to discredit the entire anti-vax movement as a bunch of deranged loons… Not that they needed much help.
Lovely Thingy writes “Take off your primary germline antibody denialism first”, asserting that germline transcripts are expressed as antibodies during a primary infection. Yet another opportunity to show anti-vax nutters don’t know what they are talking about. From the 1999 paper by the same authors as the one Thingy linked to”This transcript, termed germline ε (Gε),3 is induced by IL-4 and to a lesser extent by IL-13 and cannot be translated into mature IgE protein (7).”
Have fun all, I’m off for a long restful birthday weekend far away from computers and mobile phones. Thank you for all you do Thingy, to discredit anti-vax loons everywhere.
In other news…
There is much yowling and shrieking, hand-wringing, tearing of hair and rending of garments @ AoA, the Canary Party, Thinking Moms’ Revolution et al at the CDC’s announcement of US autism prevalence at 1 in 88.
Oh wait, that’s not really news because that’s how they behave every day.
@ Jay Chaplin: Enjoy your weekend and,
To whom it may concern-the “SBM’ elite:
Your ridiculous answers to Th1Th2 show complete lack of maturity, judgement, appropriate content, and are totally irrelevant to the topic.
You all get off on them- I guess it feeds your narcissism that you are so clever, informed etc etc.etc ad nauseam
It isn’t really mandatory to comment. I have to weed through them too! Grow up!
PS:Thanks Chris for telling me to avoid drinking urine and asking me how many
pregnant women I infected when I was 8.
To whom it may concern-the “SBM’ elite:
Your ridiculous answers to Th1Th2 show complete lack of maturity, judgement, appropriate content, and are totally irrelevant to the topic.
Oh, lurker, who provides a noble model on how to treat others: How should they treat Th1Th2? Especially after she says nasty things about others?
I actually ignore her.
Oh get over it, lurker…this post is just classic Tone Trolling. Look it up if you’ve never heard of it, we’ve seen it all here before. Spoilers: you don’t get to decide what is mature, appropriate, or relevant to the topic.
Also, can you please explain how your drive by posts with random citations (comments 174, 252, etc.) have “appropriate content, and are totally irrelevant to the topic”? Much appreciated.
If Th1Th2 is mentally ill, is this a mature way of handling it bullies. You don’t have to
comment because no one really takes her seriously anyway.
Nah, I’d still just file that as “third attempt at threadjacking.”
So does this mean you’re encouraging us to all just ignore you too? No one here takes you seriously either.
This is an odd thing to say in light of the fact that you yourself are still garnering responses.
grandma lurker, if you’re getting the vapors and clutching your pearls, while defending Thingy…why do you post here?
You’ve been trolling here alongside Thingy for months. Why?
I suggest that you find another (more genteel) blog to post on, where your brilliance will be appreciated.
@ Denice Walter: Here’s the CDC Press Release on the autism incidence:
http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2012/p0329_autism_disorder.html
Hmmm..I see this paragraph in that Press Release…
“The results of CDCâs study highlight the importance of the Obama administrationâs efforts to address the needs of people with ASDs, including the work of the Interagency Autism Coordinating Committee (IACC) at the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. The IACCâs charge is to facilitate ASD research, screening, intervention, and education. As part of this effort, the National Institutes of Health has invested in research to identify possible risk factors and effective therapies for people with ASDs.”
The IACC, its members and its member/organizations are on AoA’s Enemies List:
http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/04/secretary-sebelius-announces-new-members-of-the-interagency-autism-coordinating-.html
Well, I strongly believe that you are a creationist. Here’s why.
Who told you to stop?
It’s not yet Sunday, but I have to say go pound sand.
OK, gotta split. Have fun on your birthday, Jay.
…just being natural.
If this means we get a temporary reprieve from your drivel, then please feel free to stay “split” as long as possible.
Get away from the computer, go get some fresh air, maybe even take a walk on one of those wonderfully hygeinic sidewalks.
Jay: I love it! Personally, I suspect that Thingy is really strongly PRO-vax
Thingy: Well, I strongly believe that you are a creationist. Here’s why.
Where’s why? What does this even MEAN? Thingy’s response are, if nothing else, endlessly fascinating.
Michelle K. here:
I’m not afraid of troll attacks, so don’t worry about me. I’m a message board veteran, and I will continue to post because I think it is important to share my experience of how a thinking parent can get caught up in the vaccine hysteria and Dr. Bob’s falsely-reassuring delayed schedule, see the light, and then start vaccinating on the CDC/APA schedule.
After a light case of chicken pox when my daughter was 2, I discussed vaccination with her pediatrician. The choices were to do a blood test to check her titers for immunity, then vaccinate if she lacked immunity, or just vaccinate. I chose to have her vaccinated rather than go through the blood test AND the shot.
FWIW, her chicken pox came from an adult with shingles. Obviously, the shingles-infected adult had had natural chicken pox as a child.
I left my child unvaccinated long enough for her to contract a natural chicken pox infection. She may very well be at risk of shingles as an adult – not because I vaccinated, but because I didn’t vaccinate SOON ENOUGH. I hear there is a shingles vaccine for older adults now, and I hope my daughter can take advantage of that at some point in her life to avoid a shingles infection as a result of my mistake in waiting to vaccinate.
Also, how much more clear can I make it: my son developed wheezing typical of asthma at five weeks old. He was not “sick,” as in he did not have any type of contagious illness. He just wheezed. He had a reactive airway. He had not had any vaccinations at that point. Subsequent testing found that his airway was reacting to reflux, and he was later diagnosed with asthma. (I think doctors are pretty reluctant to give an asthma diagnosis to a child under six months old, preferring to call it Reactive Airway, hence the delay in an actual asthma diagnosis.)
Anyway, my point is: my child developed reactive airway symptoms well before any vaccinations were administered. We went through a rough year with his breathing during viral illnesses, but this past year he has been much healthier, thanks to daily asthma medications (Flovent). Yay for modern, science-based medicine!
I had an asthmatic infant. If he had contracted, say, pertussis in the months prior to being fully vaccinated, it would have been disastrous. Thank you to all the parents who choose vaccination – you protected my baby during those vulnerable months. Having a vulnerable infant made me realize how silly and selfish I had been to delay vaccines for my first child.
@ Michelle K. Goodness gracious…you have already advanced to senior status here at RI…congratulations!
In case you haven’t already “bookmarked” the CDC Pink Book website, here it is:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/index.html
“I hear there is a shingles vaccine for older adults now, and I hope my daughter can take advantage of that at some point in her life to avoid a shingles infection as a result of my mistake in waiting to vaccinate.”
See what the ACIP (Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices), has on the Zoster vaccine:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6044a5.htm
The ladies of RI welcome you.
JGC
I thought you were done interacting with me. Guess not.
Existing creates no obligation other than not violating the rights of others. As I have explained over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over not vaccinating places no one at risk and violates no rights.
Refer to the thread.
This is like teaching a remedial thinking class. Yes those teachers ARE underpaid.
Finally, repeating the same discredited concepts over and over and over and over and over and over and over again does not make them true. Yes, it is entertaining to discredit them but it does, after a while, become tedious.
On to the rest of your irrational post. : (
What creates the rights of others, O teacher of remedial thinking?
JGC
Just more tired gibberish. I’ll sift through it tomorrow to see if I can find a nugget of confusion to clarify.
—————
@Th1Th2
I wouldn’t put anything past them
LOL. They think I’m a real estate investor named Richard.
——–
@Narad
Let me clarify. Initiation of force against the innocent. Do I have to cut your meat for you as well?
————
@Vicki
My arguments focus on the morality of an action. These laws for the most part should not exist. I’d tell a hotelier to obey the law so as not to get thrown into a cage. With laws in place, a guest going into a hotel has certain expectations. To, for example, turn off the sprinklers when a guest thinks they are on is problematic. This reflects the problems created when government gets involved in areas that don’t concern them.
Safety codes should, by enlarge, not exist – history of fires or not. Places that have histories of fire have few customers.
The codes should not exist. Since they do people expect that type protection so the signs don’t apply. In a free world, it’s all about expectations. Tell your workers the doors are open but really locked and your liable.
Rights are not created. They exist. Do you not believe you have rights?
Stay thirsty, my friends.
You have now gone from the frying pan of requiring a theory of agency to the fire of having to construct ontology. Let me reprise the original remark with a touch of emphasis for complete clarity:
See, a political philosopher of your standing should have been able to get past the original sloppiness with a simple clarification. Now you’ve got some work to do.
Just so people can remember, we are trying to eradicate Measles all over the world. It has no non human reservoir. We are not just trying to stop it here, but everywhere. It can be done. In the last 150 years it has been responsible for 200 million deaths. It currently causes 45 million cases and 800,000 deaths a year. It may have only 1 per 1000 death rate in the US, but in the rest of the world it is 10+ percent. If you don’t have a valid medical reason for not being immunized you should be. If you have a philosophical objection, then you are an ignorant, philosophically selfish, child killing S O B and should get your butt kicked
Is Sid real or just a very elaborate Onion gag?
You know, I always thought that libertarianism was about taking responsibility for yourself and providing for yourself and your family rather than expecting society to provide for you. Sid’s attitude seems exactly contra to that: he expects society to protect him and his children against disease and expects society to care for him and his family if they should get sick. I would have thought that, as a libertarian, he would *want* to be vaccinated so that he would be protected as much as possible even if no one around him chose to be vaccinated. It’s kind of like having a gun and learning to use it instead of relying on the State to protect you.
I don’t think Sid is a libertarian. I think he’s just utterly selfish and self-centered.
@LW & Kelly – yes, Robert is very much real. I wouldn’t say his is a true libertarian, maybe half, with a bunch of “Sovereign Man” crap thrown in for good measure.
He loves to argue from the standpoint of “theory” without any consideration as to how those theories would work in the real world. Just like Karl Marx painted a wonderful picture of the ultimate goals of communism (which attracted, of course, a huge and enthusiastic following), everything fell apart when people actually tried to put his theories into practice.
Just because Ayn Rand or Ron Paul expouse(d) libertarian theories about how things should be, gives them no special dispensation for how things actually are. Robert can say “how” things should be as long as he wants (again, at least he can put together coherent thoughts, for the most part). But what he can’t do is say with any sort of definitive authority that things “will” work the way that he says they will (if we all suddenly adopted his philosophy).
In this day and age of the 24 hour news cycle, where one bad accident involving a product (especially with a child) can force changes to be made across entire industries, it is just plain silly for Robert to expect that we, as a civilization, would sudden become okay with throwing the rules out the window & hope for the best…..philosophies like Robert’s (and Karl Marx’s) that leave no room for accomodation of past history, people’s actions & activities, or bad behavior in general, isn’t anything that could work on a practical scale.
As much as it probably pains Robert, he’ll have to put up with government regulation / interference – as he calls it. He’ll continue to post here, on a government sponsored high-speed communication system, railing against what he considers to be affronts to his personal freedom (where, in a lot of countries, doing just that would either not be possible or possibly result in a death sentence).
While our system isn’t perfect, it has been successful where many others have failed, and it at least offers outlets for change, unlike many others.
Winston Churchill once said, Democracy is the worst kind of government, except for every other kind.
I’m not sure that Robert’s real malfunction isn’t just plain contrarianism – assert anything to him, no matter how obvious, and he feels he has to contradict it – even if doing so makes him look an idiot, an asshole, or both at once. Witness his repulsive “isn’t she pretty” declaration in response to a young girl badly scarred by a VPD, and his embrace of pox parties which would decimate exactly what he keeps claiming keeps him and his family safe from VPDs, their low frequency here in the US.
One internets to Kelly at #368. Sprayed tea all over my laptop at that one.