Thanks, antivaccinationists. Thanks again for the measles.

It is my opinion (and not necessarily that of my employers) that we’re much closer behind Europe than we think. I’m thinking 3 to 5 years behind. But that’s just the epidemiologist and biostatistician in me looking at the data. As we all know, the singular of data is not an anecdote… Or something like that.

Hey look everybody is Sid, the guy who thinks that 220 cases is not a lot, even though usually ther is only 60 cases. So we now know that Sid thinks that measles isn’t important unless it cases are overs 220. How many cases do there have to be for you to consider measles important Sid?

Hey look everybody is Sid, the guy who thinks that 220 cases is not a lot, even though usually ther is only 60 cases. So we now know that Sid thinks that measles isn’t important unless it cases are overs 220. How many cases do there have to be for you to consider measles important Sid?

Before one of the usual innumerate suspects crows about how 14% of the measles victims were vaccinated, let me “run the numbers” for you.

In 2010 (the most recent year for which full data are available from the CDC), the percentage of people in the US who had received full (one dose for children, two doses for teens) measles vaccination was:

Children (19 – 35 months): 91.5%
Teens (13 – 17 years): 90.5%

Since almost all of the measles victims were under 18 years old, these numbers should be sufficient to calculate the odds ratio.

If the 222 victims had been randomly distributed (i.e. not dependent on vaccination status), we would expect that somewhere around 91% of them would have been vaccinated – just about the opposite of what was found. In fact, the odds ratio for getting measles in this outbreak was a bit over 62, meaning that the chances of getting measles was 62 times greater if the person wasn’t vaccinated.

This illustrates two useful and important facts about vaccination:

[1] Vaccination works.
[2] Vaccination isn’t 100% effective, which is why it is so important that we vaccinate everybody who can be vaccinated.

Prometheus

“On the down side, pertussis cases are up – with 665 cases in the first 3 months of the year (with 65 in those under 3 months of age and 3 deaths).
Yes, 3 deaths.”

3 babies dead- I don’t know how these fanatics can sleep at night. (Oh I know, they have no trouble- it’s just the rest of us who can’t)

It is beyond belief that American Airlines is featuring an interview with Meryl Dorey of the Australian Vaccination Network on all domestic and international flights during July/August. Transcript of interview can be read here http://www.antivaxxers.com/?p=4668

Between the Euro Cup and the Olympics, public health officials must be getting nervous. The current measles outbreak in the Ukraine is of real concern http://www.healthcanal.com/public-health-safety/28466-Measles-outbreak-Ukraine-vaccination-advice.html

1) Those too young to be vaccinated (who will also be the illest potentially) 26 cases were in infants under 1 year of age.

@ dt, if the parents are even aware, they get to look forward to worrying about SSPE which is 100% fatal and a horrible neurological sequelae of measles infection in approximately 1/10,000 cases although in children under 2 years old, the risk goes up to about 1/2000.

RE: 3 deaths from pertussis.

I am dumbfounded by the anti-vax belief that measles, vericella, and influenza are mild illnesses that no one should really worry about. Of course this belief can only be propagated in a generation of parents who have no personal or community experience with the dangers these diseases pose. It is deeply ironic that the fear of vaccines, rather than fear of the infections they prevent, has flourished only because the vaccines have been so effective. It seem we are doomed to suffer from contagion; either the encapsulated viral particle type, or the psychological mass hysteria type.

I had a futile argument on the GaiaHealth web site in the comments after an anti-measles blog post a couple weeks ago (after watching The Refusers First Do No Harm video, .. thanks a lot Orac, deep sarcasm intended). Of course my final and definitive post, complete with citations, links and brilliant and witty argument was deleted by the moderator. The debate equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and saying “LALALALALALALA I CANT HEAR YOU, LALALALALAA”

Link here if you want to take up the fight:

http://gaia-health.com/gaia-blog/2012-04-07/measles-outbreaks-centered-in-the-vaccinated-studies-show-vaccine-is-ineffective/

It got me thinking about two approaches to combat the anti-vax massage.

First is that a central online repository for information/links/studies/refined arguments would be helpful for those of us deluded enough to think that combating the blogosphere is a worthwhile effort. All cataloged by vaccine and also by Trope.

Second is that my non-legal mind wants to sue the stupid right out of these people. If you are publicly trashing vaccines and vaccine rates fall, then it seem to me you aught to be financially and criminally liable when the inevitable happens: disease rates will/have rise/risen and innocents will/have die/died. If I was a parent and my kid died from measles, H.FLU, etc, then I would want the Terminator for my lawyer. Finding a lawyer to sue someone shouldn’t be too hard in this country, right?

Perhaps such efforts are already underway.

Next time I copy my post for easy retrieval.

CWatkins

If I was a parent and my kid died from measles, H.FLU, etc, then I would want the Terminator for my lawyer. Finding a lawyer to sue someone shouldn’t be too hard in this country, right?

It’s not easy to prove negligence for conditions that are contagious before they are symptomatic. There’s no legal duty to vaccinate, so you’d have to at a minimum demonstrate, in addition to the chain of transmission that you’re suing over, that a reasonable person would have known that they needed to quarantine their child or at least warn before coming into contact. And no, IANAL.

As the AV’s maintain that vaccines are ineffective and the reduction of infectious disease is due to better hygiene. Are they now going to argue we’re getting dirtier?

My daughter is seven months old, and I live in a high-woo area (Ann Arbor, MI.) One of my biggest fears is that some anti-vaxxer will get my daughter killed before she’s old enough for these vaccinations. It’s 2012. I shouldn’t have to worry about these things.

Not getting your child vaccinated against measles and mumps is absurd and irresponsible. These two diseases have life changing consequences. I grew up in the time before there were vaccines for these diseases and got both. Measles ruined my eyes. Mumps may have ruined my chances to have children. A parent that doesn’t believe they should get their child vaccinated against these diseases should talk to someone who actually had the diseases. How soon we forget…

@ CWatkins:
If only. If only. If only.
Altho’ I entirely share your sentiment it is far more likely that those who *spew* anti-vaccine- and other alt med poppycock- will sue people who publicise and de-construct their prevarication. The Grand Poobah of Woo has a stable full of lawyers at the ready as we speak just itching for a chance and then there is expat boy in Texas…

Thus I attempt to air as many dirty linens ( mis-information) as I can, leaving off my second last name and locus.

CWatkins: “I am dumbfounded by the anti-vax belief that measles, vericella, and influenza are mild illnesses that no one should really worry about. Of course this belief can only be propagated in a generation of parents who have no personal or community experience with the dangers these diseases pose.”

The lack of personal experience is probably because their own parents were smart enough to have them vaccinated.

As the AV’s maintain that vaccines are ineffective and the reduction of infectious disease is due to better hygiene. Are they now going to argue we’re getting dirtier?

If you’re a vaccinator, then you’re an infection promoter. So yes, vaccinators are dirty little pigs. Get a clue.

I should proofread my posts for grammar, also I should mention that we were told in that class that 90% is though to be the level at which herd immunity starts to have a significant effect so all those Idaho parents counting on herd immunity to save their un-vaccinated children should probably think again.

A further bit of evidence that childhood diseases were mass killers: The Baltic SD (now called Pioneer) cemetery opened in 1871. In the first ten years 131 people were buried there, 80 of them younger than 2 years old. You can see tombstones where families lost several children within a weeks time (probably diphtheria epidemics).

Something people do not factor into account is that disease transmission can move both ways. Even in an area where measles is endemic does not mean there is an outbreak going on all the time. It is possible that an outbreak in Europe or the US can be carried back by the same channels and create a significant outbreak in a lesser developed country. The moral issue here is that the mortality rate there is >10%. Just so people can remember, we are trying to eradicate Measles all over the world. It has no non human reservoir. We are not just trying to stop it here, but everywhere. It can be done. In the last 150 years it has been responsible for 200 million deaths. It currently causes 45 million cases and 800,000 deaths a year. It may have only 1 per 1000 death rate in the US, but in the rest of the world it is 10+ percent. If you don’t have a valid medical reason for not being immunized you should be. If you have a philosophical objection, then you are an ignorant, philosophically, selfish, child killer.

A few approaches that may be worth trying:

= Lawyer letters to bloggers dispensing anti-vax nonsense. Basically threaten to sue them ’til they’re blue, over anyone who gets ill or dies as a result of their advice. This may only scare off a few, but each one we take down is progress.

= Sic the Postal Inspection Service on blogs and Facebook pages that blab about sending infectious material through the mail (e.g. chicken pox contaminated items). Sending biohazards through the mail without appropriate paperwork and proper containers, is a felony. The Postal Inspectors are ferociously capable law enforcement, highly respected by the FBI, and they will swing into action if you provide them with evidence (links, date/time-stamped screenshots, etc.).

= Explore the possibility of writing legislation based on the model of “agricultural disparagement” laws that exist in many agricultural states. These laws penalize individuals who make statements against agricultural products without scientific evidence. Now frankly I detest these laws and any other attempts to protect private sector entities from even asinine speech, but as long as they remain on the books, they are a potential model. The goal would be laws that penalize individuals who make statements against vaccination without scientific evidence. Be sure to define scientific evidence in a manner that excludes papers such as Wakefield’s that got yanked, and anecdotal “stuff” that hasn’t been published in reputable journals.

= Also on the legislative front, explore discontinuing “religious objections” to vaccines or making them so strict as to be almost unobtainable, like getting conscientious objector status in World War Two. Various “speed bumps on the road to outbreak” might be tried as well, such as: =Parents who obtain religious objector status, are required to self-quarantine their entire families at the first sign of illness, and can be held civilly-liable if they do not. =Children of religious objectors ineligible for public school, parents must provide evidence of private or home schooling (“freedom isn’t free”).

= Develop religious counter-arguements to religious objections. For example the whole “render unto Caesar” principle is worth trying: “God won’t send you to hell for obeying the law against your will.” This is going to require input from comparative religion scholars.

= Fight woo with woo if necessary. OK, put on your rubber gloves and swamp boots first, but none the less: When someone claims that “vaccines aren’t 100% effective,” trot out the quantum woo and claim that “since the universe is fundamentally uncertain, there are exceptions to everything including the so-called law of gravity, but none the less, getting your shots is as smart as not leaping off ladders.” Devoted students of the sociology of woo ought to be able to come up with some good examples.

= Use emotional warfare on anti-vax blogs. Tell emotional stories full of tears and sobbing and unbearable grief and terror, about people in your own family or people you read about, who were sick with or died of terrible diseases. Don’t hold back details about bodily fluids and suchlike: the more gross the better. This stuff has a way of infiltrating the minds of readers and subtly influencing their decisions, in a manner similar to advertising.

= “Prescribe the symptom,” also on anti-vax blogs. Go in there and “agree with them” and then say things that appear thoroughly delusional, overtly nuts, blatantly and obviously wrong even to nincompoops, etc. Occasional spelling and grammar errors are also useful but don’t over-do. The point of this exercise is to create an impression that drives away undecideds who may come in to check out these sites. It helps to do this as a group effort and begin gradually, so the sites appear to be “going downhill slowly.”

There are plenty of other possible tactics along these lines.

CDC authorities 1967 (when measles was very common) :”For centuries the measles virus has maintained a remarkably stable ecological relationship with man. The clinical disease is a characteristic syndrome of notable constancy and only moderate severity. Complications are infrequent, and, with adequate medical care, fatality is rare.”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1919891/pdf/pubhealthreporig00027-0069.pdf

Orac, the atheistic Skeptic Society agenda Member, measles alarmist, slippery slope logical fallacy user:

“If we allow vaccination rates to fall too much, in 2020 it’s not too far-fetched to imagine 30,000 cases a year in North America.”

How many deaths do you predict from your breast surgery position? So do you think there will be 3,000 deaths in 2020 because of the often quoted 1 in a 1000 measles death rate?

More so than the prevaccine era? So much projection. So little actual science.

Do you agree that there are risk factors for measles death or do you think it’s homogenous?

Hmmm….

Very interesting-

https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/about.php

Hmm…..
Very interesting-

Well, in the sense that it’s a glimpse into just how credulous Jake has been. Has he trotted out that EPA line recently? I don’t subscribe to Tedium Digest.

@anon

Thanks for the link. Did not realise how completely paranoid the anti vexers are.

By that logic, if you have an investment in a mutual fund that has some pharma shares you are a Pharma shill and need to disclose Conflict of interest.

Real Crazy

@g724
Bravo. That was quite a lengthy, well thought out list of possible attacks against disease promotion by the anti-vax crowd.

Perhaps as penance for my last link, I believe I’ve discovered Orac’s secret identity:

http://memebase.com/2012/04/16/internet-memes-hes-in-credible/

Oops..that’s what I get for reading blogs before coffee has sunk in. Jake’s attack is from 2010, when he tried (and failed) to get the doctor fired. So “anon” is almost 2 years out of the loop… such a Brave Sir Robin!

Oh how cute, Augie manages to cherry-pick quotes from a decades-old article, demonstrate piss poor maths and set up a massive red herring all in one post. Hey Augie, the current measles fatality rate in the EU is the same as the pre-vaccine era.

@ RTContracting: I knew it, I just knew it…I’m not the only one who goes *slumming* at AoA.

Must the *journalists* at AoA, turn every sad day of reflection and every joyful holiday, into a device to bemoan their plight of having a developmentally disabled child?

We’re approaching Mother’s Day and Father’s Day, when Stagmom and her colleagues will be cranking out multiple articles about their *stolen-by-autism* children.

Hey Kim, Arbor Day is April 27th. Are you busy planting seeds or busy composing another mournful article?

@ g724:
As a devotee of the psychology of woo:
we could use the homeopathetic argument in support of vaccines.
They are “contaminated” with ‘toxins’ at vanishingly small levels thus- **because like-cures-like- they are their own cure! Hg causes and simultaneously cures autism! The measles virus in the MMR also causes and cures autism ( AJW).
Actually, because hardly anything in the wide world is pristinely free of other substances, we could probably assert that everything is its own cause and cure. So why take supplements to replace nutrients because the paucity of nutrients in bad food actually makes the products more nutritious! Less is more. More or less.

** I am writing as though I were one of them and I am not.

@ adelady: Sometimes I wonder if secretly (and not so secretly), in their minds, “stolen by the actual disease”, would be a better alternative for them.

I classify all their articles as Me, Me, Me, Me articles.

-Pity Me…my life has been ruined and, I cannot move on since my child was diagnosed as being on “the spectrum”.

-Why Me and Why Me/Religion Variant…I’m a good person, so why did THIS (my child), happen to me.

-Martyr Me…I care for my child, not for the sake of caring (and loving), but because I achieve martyrdom.

-Angry Me…I’ll stay in this state of blazing white anger forever. It justifies why I can lash out at my child(ren), the world of science and individuals who are not in lockstep with the group-think at AoA.

I guess if we’re going to play the conflict of interest game, Jake and his task masters have a huge conflict of interest. If they’re able to lie their way into successfully blaming drug companies, they’ll be able to financially benefit.

in the spirit of fighting fire with fire –
a testimonial from a member of the herd for Th1Th2

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/measles/unprotected-story.htm

“Megan now knows that her son was exposed to measles during his 10-month check-up, when another mother brought her ill son into the pediatrician’s waiting room. An investigation found that the boy and his siblings had gotten measles overseas and brought it back to the United States. They had not been vaccinated.

“People who choose not to vaccinate their children actually make a choice for other children and put them at risk,” Megan explains. “At 10 months, my son was too young to get measles, mumps, rubella (MMR) vaccine. But when he was 12 months old, we got him the vaccine—even though he wasn’t susceptible to measles anymore. This way, he won’t suffer from mumps or rubella, or spread them to anyone else.”

more here

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/unprotected-stories.htm

Nice straw man ya got there. No one here has claimed that measles is the biggest medical threat we have ever faced.

Feeling the heat a bit, Dr. Jay?

Jay Gordon – “There are far more important medical issues–like autism, for instance.”

Really? Is autism more important than anything else? (talk about hyper-focused)

Have you even looked at the NSW chart lilady provided?
http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/resources/publichealth/surveys/phb_hepb_immu.pdf

DEATHS FROM DISEASES COMMONLY VACCINATED AGAINST, AUSTRALIA 1926–2000
1 9 2 6 – 1 9 3 5 -1 1 0 2 deaths from measles
1 9 6 6 – 1 9 7 5 -1 4 6 deaths from measles
1 9 9 6 – 2 0 0 0 – 0 deaths from measles

(personally, I’d take a sick child – even a really sick one, over a dead one any day.)

you are welcome. We did it so thank the secular depressives would have something to complain about.

I have read this blog for a long time, but rarely comment. Dear old Dr. Jay has compelled me to do so.

I suppose that you of all people would know “unscientific, hyperbolic crap” since that’s all that you’re capable of citing as “evidence” for your position. Thanks to people like you, I get to worry about whether or not my very-soon to be born son will contract pertussis or measles before he is old enough to be vaccinated. I do not want to see my baby hospitalized or killed because of whooping cough! You’re the one who should be ashamed. You are a vile man who puts the lives of children and immunocompromised adults at risk for the purpose of your agenda. Shame on you!

Isn’t Dr. Gordon the one who admitted that he’d had a patient with symptoms of pertussis but never tested them to see if that’s what it was?

Drinking Water, Sanitation, Health and Disease
About 2.6 billion people – half the developing world – lack even a simple ‘improved’ latrine and 1.1 billion people has no access to any type of improved drinking source of water. As a direct consequence:
1.6 million people die every year from diarrhoeal diseases (including cholera) attributable to lack of access to safe drinking water and basic sanitation and 90% of these are children under 5, mostly in developing countries;

h_ttp://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/mdg1/en/index.html

@moto_librarian

Other people don’t exist to alleviate your paranoia. Worried? Get YOUR shots and keep YOUR kids home.

Dr. Gordon – And what explains the massive reduction in measles in the United States since the 1950s? Assuming people were to stop measles immunizations in large numbers, what would prevent the incidence of measles from increasing to its historic levels? If it would, how quickly would that happen? If not, how do we know it wouldn’t?

Yeah, Sid, I won’t leave the house for the next 18 months. But by all means, make it seem like I’m the problem, you enormous tool.

Mr. Stone, Yazbak was one of those who got child murderer Alan Yurko out of jail by falsely claiming it was the vaccines and not him shaking the life out of his girlfriend’s infant. That is despicable, and automatically makes him and his friends (like you) not to be trusted.

Also, Mr. Stone, the MMR vaccine with the Jeryl Lynn mumps strain was introduced in the USA in 1971. Please post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show an increase in autism in the USA between 1971 and 1985, and make sure none of them are dated after 1997.

I am so sick of parents telling me they’re “terrified this rash might be measles” because of the unscientific, hyperbolic crap you and others like like you promulgate.

Pardon the cancer surgeon, he has never treated a child.

One wonders what Dr Jay’s current hot autism treatment recommendations are?

One wonders the same about Orac? Does he have a favourite autism treatment? Can’t seem to find it through the site search…

Leaving invective aside I recommend F Edward Yazbak’s ‘Measles in the United Kingdom: The Wakefield Factor’ in which the actual UK data – and other – is carefully examined.

http://www.vaccinationnews.com/measles-united-kingdom-wakefield-factor

Yazbak trying to perform retrospective desktop epidemiology is like you thinking your competent to comment on topics you have no education in. Here is my response to Dr. Jay from another thread who asked about this rubbish:

Awww, how cute, Dr. Jay and the AoA ignorati try to do epidemiology. No, Dr. Jay, the figures aren’t wrong but the sad/funny part is how you and they are trying to interpret them without some crucial information to anchor that information. The triple jab was introduced to the UK in 1988, then the second dose in 1996. Now take a look at what the measles cases did prior to 1998. Now look at post 1998 when it took a few years for the number of measles jab uptake to decline and breaks in herd immunity to occur.

There is so little correspondence between reported cases and confirmed cases in the UK figures (apples and oranges) that there is no real point in comparison, on the other confirmed cases were rising in a period of improved uptake perhaps because the DH were desperately looking for them (no doubt as a stick to beat Wakefield, which is pretty much the way “science” works these days).

Second point, I don’t take childhood illness lightly which is why I want active reporting of adverse vaccine events and long term follow ups, not retrospective statistics where these thing can be dismissed and buried.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2011/10/the-naked-cdc-the-truth-about-mmr-or-part-of-it-in-their-own-words.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500690_162-4086809.html

It is very easy to walk away having not collected the data and pretend that you know nothing has happened.

Pertussis is already back, so I’m guessing their next goal is bringing back diphtheria.

@lilady – I’m Aussie, that’s how it’s spelt 🙂

But yes, in not being able to move on (and I suspect there was a period of grief for my parents, but it was before my time) they miss the real gift – people who make you see the world in it’s beautiful simplicity.

And also, help you recognise others for what they are. There’s an 18 yr old cousin on the other side of the family, technically not a blood relative to us, who is worrying his mother because ‘he’s gone atheist’. But the way he is with my sister, making her give him hugs, making her laugh, being comfortable giving her attention and love, I tell his mother it doesn’t matter, (I and personally think it doesn’t, but, dealing with the old school here) he’s a good kid. I know because he’s good to her.

All we can hope is maybe one day they realise there is no ‘blame’ here. It happens sometimes. And that maybe they can see it as a chance to grow.

@ meg: I was raised as a *traditional* Lutheran with a Roman Catholic mother, who taught her three children to be compassionate and giving. Looking back on my early years, I think she was basically a humanist.

I in turn, brought my daughter up as a Lutheran. She was exposed to her dad’s Roman Catholic faith and our collective humanism. She learned early on, that life may not be “fair”, but she also learned not to blame anyone or anything. (*”Life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans”).

I prefer to remember all the good things that my son brought into our lives…and into the lives of all the people who knew him and loved him. I still miss him, but he is as close to me as my next thought.

* http://thinkexist.com/quotation/life_is_what_happens_to_you_while_you-re_busy/171775.html

@a-non

I agree with your sentiments. I cannot get over the fact that these supposedly scientifically literate doctors have created a niche market based on unscientific principles. Worse, they promote these principles on their websites and in interviews, etc. They are in the privileged position of holding high credibility for most non-SBM literate people. With that privilege comes responsibility – at least I thought so. It stinks.

g274@37 “A few approaches that may be worth trying: ”

Or this fantastic comic strip approach to informing the general population. The link is to the final chapter of the book so it summarises everything. But homeopathy, Andrew Wakefield and chiropractic get a whole chapter each as well as a mention at the end. http://darryl-cunningham.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/science-denial.html

Apparently the evolution chapter has provoked the most comment and disputation on the writer’s blog because he crowd sources editing and reviewing as he goes along releasing drafts of each chapter. I’m off to find the chapters I’m interested in.

@ Science Mom:

Well, at the very least we can all be thankful that Mr Stone did not misuse Orac’s hospitality to re-iterate his tired musings on the state of the media, pharmaceutical companies and the intricacies of the Murdoch matrix.
Be that as it may, any interested readers may find them listed chronologically @ Age of Autism under his name.

And -btw- conspiracies are an absolute necessity if you don’t have the data: it enables bold maverick geniuses to explain why their pardigm-shifting discoveries never became part of the mainstream. I’m sure that my insight into this situation will guarantee a label of *insider* for yours truly. Such is life.

respectfulinsolence.com/2011/03/dr_jay_and_argumentum_ad_populum.php

That thread is also home to the multi-level fail comment about “millions of years old symbiotic measles”.

I had forgotten the highlights of that thread, such as Dr Gordon simultaneously insisting that (a) the vaccination program is an unwarranted heavy-handed extension of government powers into private life and (b) breastfeeding should be made compulsory for the mothers of infants.

As long as we’re collected Dr. Gordon’s greatest hits, I’m fond of the comments on this post, wherein Dr. Gordon states that “tetanus isn’t everywhere” and, when corrected that yes, in fact, the spores *are* everywhere, he argues that since tetanus mortality in America is low, tetanus vaccines shouldn’t be used here. Repeated attempts to get him to quantify the acceptable level of mortality or to explain his plan for bringing mortality up to par were unsuccessful. The hilarity continues from there.

@ LW: Dr. Jay makes that same/or similar comment about all the Recommended Childhood Immunizations (See at the bottom of the page “Vaccinations, An Overview Through Childhood”)

http://drjaygordon.com/vaccinations/vaccination-schedule.html

lilady #103, oh, I know, but the comment thread is entertaining as Dr. Gordon eels around in response to knowledgeable commenters. I expect his site is all his pontifications plus a lot of “ooh, doctor, you’re so wonderful.”

I don’t go to his site because, unlike you, I have a very weak stomach.

I see that Stone’s comments are devoid of any data supporting his argument that the UK’s Department of Health fixed stats to hoist Wakefield by the petard. Hell, any data for that matter.

Mr. Stone, you have neglected to answer my question. Here it is again:

Also, Mr. Stone, the MMR vaccine with the Jeryl Lynn mumps strain was introduced in the USA in 1971. Please post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show an increase in autism in the USA between 1971 and 1985, and make sure none of them are dated after 1997.

If you want to cherry-pick my quotes, here’s a good one:

“But, of course, I certainly agree that abandoning measles vaccination would lead to unacceptable morbidity and mortality. I do not support that reversal of public policy. I support individual parents’ right to participate in the discussion.”

Dr. Jay, what exactly do you mean by “I support individual parents’ right to participate in the discussion.“? Because how many parents are qualified to participate in the discussion beyond, “I don’t wanna”? Should their concerns be addressed? Absolutely but with facts and not the misinformation that you and your colleagues disseminate and not with elevating parental rights above facts, protection for their children and their social responsibility.

The fear of measles and the invented terror hurts more than it helps. As you all know, Wakefield’s article–with which I disagree, btw–did not lead to an increase in reported measles in the UK. Inventing that “fact” is wrong:

You are making the same error John Stone is; you don’t seem to understand disease epidemiology enough to figure out why there would be a lag between a particular event like Wakefield’s Lancet paper, subsequent media hype, MMR vaccine coverage decrease and disease incidence increase.

There are just a lot more important public health issues. That’s all. My time to waste here is up.

Of course you would want the focus to be off of topics like VPD increases because they reflect rather poorly on you. It’s not as though every other public health issue is dropped into the rubbish bin so cut the strawman argument.

Dr. Jay, you are cherry picking again. It was the media that peaked in 2004. And as you can see from your numbers that after the introduction in 1988 measles rates plummeted, only to rise again after Wakefield’s press release. You are just playing off that the numbers were still smaller than they were before 1988 when the MMR came to the UK. It doesn’t work that way.

Also, you can answer my question I posed above to you, first the numbers of measles cases you think are okay dokay and…:

You might also give us the cites that show autism started to increase substantially in the USA between 1971 to 1985, coinciding to the introduction of the MMR.

Dr. Gordon @61, addressing Orac:

Yet you hyper-focus, obsess, perseverate and exaggerate until you’ve convinced people that measles is the biggest medical threat we have ever faced. Nothing could be further from the truth and you know it.

It is disgusting that you have latched on to this and beat it to death. You should be ashamed of yourselves for this.

Yep, Dr. Gordon, “Invective and anger have replaced honest discourse”.

lilady

You seem to be going round in circles. So, you can cite the CDC advice to parents that it is alright to vaccinate unwell infants, but what is it based on? In times past people were more circumspect about vaccinating unwell children but now the schedule so is tight and overloaded that you can’t even stop. In the words of the famous song of the First World War “We’re here because we’re here because we’re here”.

Secondly, we are dealing with a situation in which as many as one in 17 children get a severe reaction to MMR: it is utterly routine but we don’t know what it means and unfortunately the existence of the VSD tells us nothing because it has been placed outside public scrutiny. But one other thing that strikes me about this is that if you actually followed the 1 in 17 cases where there is a high fever (LeBaron study) you might get statistically much more significant results.

Of course, I am not impressed by the fact that CDC is left to monitor it’s own policy. What makes them different from from any other bureaucracy that we can put so much trust in them? You may say that that is a conspiracy theory, and I would say it is just ordinary political scepticism about an ultimately unaccountable organisation.

Mr. Stone, answer the question: post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that showed that autism increased in the USA when the MMR vaccine with Jeryl Lynn mumps component was introduced in 1971. Be sure the papers are dated between 1971 and 1997.

You said:

Well, actually I cited a CDC paper where:-

I just checked all your posts, none of them start with http://www.cdc.gov, please post the actual CDC document that you quoted.

@ John Stone:

I was alluding to a more generic problem at Age of Autism ( and similar websites): many who write there support a position** that is not supported by data whilst spinning tales of skulduggery and intrigue to *explain away* any research, consensus opinion or investigation that opposes that position.

I read the original Lancet paper early on and it just seemed ‘odd’ to me- not at all consonant with my own studies. I hardly thought about it until my own relative consulted me about vaccination for his newborn child because he was afraid of autism: I told him that I personally wouldn’t have any fears. That was in 2001.

As a psychologist, I can certainly understand why some parents and grandparents of children with autism would like to believe the vaccine-autism theory: it would be caused by something external – medical, corporate or governmental malfeasance- not genetics, an interaction of genes and environment or even the play of blind chance. However, in order to disregard medical consensus and governmental data- as well as the media- from both the UK and the US, we would need to believe in a massive conspiracy involving thousands of people held in place for *decades*. How likely is that?

I find the alternate explanation more reasonable: a single person – who had financial conflicts of interest- fixed data to ensure his own rise to fame and fortune.Case closed.

** that vaccines cause autism

Jarrad, if Mr. Stone wished to use a citation then he must post it in a comment here. I see no reason to go to AoA, there is a reason I want to see primary sources and not wade through excess verbiage.

Chris asked those questions at # 83…in reply to Mr. Stone’s post at # 82 above:

“Leaving invective aside I recommend F Edward Yazbak’s ‘Measles in the United Kingdom: The Wakefield Factor’ in which the actual UK data – and other – is carefully examined.

http://www.vaccinationnews.com/measles-united-kingdom-wakefield-factor

Posted by: John Stone | April 21, 2012 3:45 PM”

Yazbak’s paper is not reliable and offers no citations to the questions posed.

Dr Jay used to have an easy life, where mere parents never questioned him; now that Orac and others have spilled the beans, the poor doctor is being asked questions! It must be awful for him.

Mr. Stone:

With regard to the other point that Chris is trying to make I suspect that early uptake for MMR was rather patchy – was autism incidence stable during this period? I doubt it but do we have reliable figures? Nor is it comparable with period of the mandated vaccine schedule for all sorts of obvious reasons.

Not so fast, pardner! The level of measles dropped quite a bit after the introduction of the MMR in 1971, and even more so after the Measles Elimination Program was initiated in 1978. From the CDC Pink Book Appendix G:
Disease: Measles in the USA
Year__Cases____Deaths
1970___47,351___89
1971___75,290___90
(^^^ MMR licensed)
1972___32,275___24
1973___26,690___23
1974___22,690___20
1975___24,374___20
1976___41,126___12
1977___57,245___15
1978___26,871___11
(^^^ Measles Elimination Program started)
1979___13,597____6
1980___13,506___11
1981____2,124____2
1982____1,714____4
1983____1,497____1
1984____2,587____1
1985____2,822____2
1986____6,282____2
1987____3,655____2
1988____3,396____3
1989___18,193___32 (this is what happens when
1990___27,786___64 measles vaccine coverage
1991____9,643___27 is reduced)
1992____2,237____4
1993______312____0 (vaccine coverage returns)
1994______963____0
1995______309____2

On the 1978 program:

Following licensure of vaccine in 1963, the incidence of measles decreased by more than 98%, and 2–3-year epidemic cycles no longer occurred. Because of this success, a 1978 Measles Elimination Program set a goal to eliminate indigenous measles by October 1, 1982 (26,871 cases were reported in 1978). The 1982 elimination goal was not met, but in 1983, only 1,497 cases were reported (0.6 cases per 100,000 population), the lowest annual total ever reported up to that time.

No more excuses, Mr. Stone. The MMR vaccine was used safely in the USA a full seventeen years before Wakefield published his fraudulent paper. Show what evidence he had from the use of the MMR elsewhere that there was an issue with autism. Show us the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers published before 1997 that caused Wakefield to make a connection between the MMR and autism.

It won’t end. Those among us who hate vaccines and science and the guv’ment will never ever admit that vaccines are anything but poison, and will use our children, real or rhetorical, as our defense. If you disagree with us, you don’t only attack us, you are launching ad hominem attacks on our broken, useless, vaccine-injured children, again real or imagined injury, real or imagined children. It doesn’t matter to us. You don’t care about nature, what’s natural. You only care about what scientists and big Pharma tells you to care about. Those of us who hate vaccines will never believe that they have any value for anything, even if all the measles come back, it will never be the fault of vaccine haters. You can’t win. If anything the voices whispering or shouting malfeasance or conspiracy on the Pharma/ Guv’ment side will grow shrill. Measles will become something that was intentionally launched against those who question vaccines. Maybe measles will become something that big Pharma invented and then retconned human history to pretend it hand been there all along. It’s not about facts. It’s not about saving children. It’s about felling that you are right and can win the debate. Or if not win, rationalize and declare victory. For our precious, damaged children.

@ MissFiFi:

Although I heartily agree with you, I think it might be too difficult to prove a chain of infection: they could argue that *others* exposed your child because people are infectious prior to showing symptoms- it must have been some *other* kid at a store you visited. However, I think we can show how bad ideas spread.

I suggest reading today’s entry @ Age of Autism in which a Ms Jameson expresses a rather different point of view than ours. Read it and weep, as they say.

@ John Stone…You posed this question…

“Yazbak’s paper is based entirely on offically published data. Can you cite anything he has misquoted?”

From the Yazbak paper (regarding Wakefield’s position):

“His position on the relative paucity of good safety data for MMR compared with the single measles vaccine has since been endorsed by the Cochrane Collaboration.[2]”

Here’s the Cochrane Citation that Yazbak provided:

http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD004407/using-the-combined-vaccine-for-protection-of-children-against-measles

“Measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) are three very dangerous infectious diseases which cause severe morbidity, disability and death in low-income countries.

Based on the evidence provided by three cohort studies (3104 participants), vaccination with one dose of MMR vaccine is at least 95% effective in preventing clinical measles among preschool children; in schoolchildren and adolescents at least one dose of MMR vaccine was 98% effective in preventing laboratory-confirmed measles cases; one or two MMR doses were respectively 92% and 95% effective in preventing secondary measles cases.

At least one dose of MMR vaccine is effective in preventing clinical mumps among children and adolescents when prepared with Jeryl Lynn strains (vaccine effectiveness = 69% to 81%, one cohort and one case-control study, 1656 participants), as well as when prepared with Urabe strain (vaccine effectiveness = 70% to 75%, one cohort and one case-control study, 1964 participants). Effectiveness against laboratory-confirmed mumps in children and adolescents was estimated to be between 64% to 66% for one and 83% to 88% for two doses of Jeryl Lynn MMR (two case-control studies, 1664 participants) and 87% for Urabe-containing MMR (one cohort study, 48 participants). Vaccination with Urabe MMR confers protection against secondary mumps infection (vaccine effectiveness = 73%, one cohort study, 147 participants).

We identified no studies assessing the effectiveness of MMR vaccine against clinical or laboratory-confirmed rubella.

Results from two very large case series studies involving about 1,500,000 children who were given the MMR vaccine containing Urabe or Leningrad-Zagreb strains show this vaccine to be associated with aseptic meningitis; whereas administration of the vaccine containing Moraten, Jeryl Lynn, Wistar RA, RIT 4385 strains is associated with febrile convulsion in children aged below five years (one person-time cohort study, 537,171 participants; two self controlled case series studies, 1001 participants). The MMR vaccine could also be associated with idiopathic thrombocytopaenic purpura (two case-controls, 2450 participants, one self controlled case series, 63 participants).

We could assess no significant association between MMR immunisation and the following conditions: autism, asthma, leukaemia, hay fever, type 1 diabetes, gait disturbance, Crohn’s disease, demyelinating diseases, or bacterial or viral infections. The methodological quality of many of the included studies made it difficult to generalise their results.

The glossary of study designs is available in the full-text review.”

Mr. Stone, where in the Cochrane citation did Dr. Yazbak locate any mention of the single antigen measles vaccine?

Mr. Stone, where in the Cochrane citation did Yazbak find any word, phrase or sentence to justify Yazbak’s statement (in defense of Wakefield, that), “His position on the relative paucity of good safety data for MMR compared with the single measles vaccine has since been endorsed by the Cochrane Collaboration.”

Jay Gordon: “(Orac’s) lack of candor…leading the mob”

Jay Gordon: “Invective and anger have replaced honest discourse to a far greater degree than I recall when I was regular visitor a while back. That’s tragic.”

Jay sees nothing wrong with invective and insults, as long as they’re his own. Jay, if you want an improvement in “tone” here, perhaps you could spend even less time posting on RI (though of course you do your part to keep our irony meters tuned up).

Jay:”But, of course, I certainly agree that abandoning measles vaccination would lead to unacceptable morbidity and mortality.”

Aren’t you the same guy who once told us he gave no routine early childhood vaccinations except “maybe a DTP”, and had to be talked into giving shots by concerned parents? Are you saying that your own abandonment of measles vaccine is fine, but you have some worries about pediatricians doing it en masse? That would actually make a degree of sense, since your select patient population would no longer be able to leach off the herd immunity of others.

Jay: “The fear of measles and the invented terror hurts more than it helps…There are just a lot more important public health issues.”

Grossly inflated strawman aside (there is no “terror”, Jay), this is an example of one of the hoariest old dodges going – “don’t be concerned about X – pay attention to Y and Z instead!!!” How come you’re even bothering to respond here, Jay, when the economy is doing poorly, climate change threatens and Middle East conflicts threaten to spiral out of control? Shame on you!

Because I had wild measles and my titers are high -I’m in my 40’s and a tri-athlete.

anon

Because I had wild measles and my titers are high -I’m in my 40’s and a tri-athlete.

And because you are a self-centered asshole who doesn’t give a shit about other people. I should add self righteous as well in light of the tri-athlete claim. I also had wild measles, but I don’t believe that makes me special and superior.

anon:

Because I had wild measles and my titers are high -I’m in my 40’s and a tri-athlete.

So this is why you want more kids to get hospitalized with measles? Wow. I knew lots of anti-vax folks were cruel and evil to want kids to suffer from vaccine preventable diseases, but you are also vindictive along with evil.

Roald Dahl’s book The BFG has the following dedication:
For Olivia
20 April 1955 – 17 November 1962

Can you tell us why?

Militant Agnostic,

I also had wild measles, but I don’t believe that makes me special and superior.

You don’t have to because you are an infection promoter. Geez. Talk about delusion of grandeur.

Here take your SBM pill and lay down that pipe.

Estimated susceptibility to asymptomatic secondary immune response against measles in late convalescent and vaccinated persons.
Serological evidence indicates that measles virus (MV) could circulate in seropositive, fully protected populations. Among individuals fully protected against disease, those prone to asymptomatic secondary immune response are the most likely to support subclinical MV transmission. The serological characteristics of protected subjects who developed secondary immune response after reexposure to measles have been described recently [Huiss et al. (1997): Clinical and Experimental Immunology 109:416-420]. On the basis of these data, a threshold of susceptibility was defined to estimate frequencies of secondary immune response competence in different populations. Among measles, late convalescent adults (n = 277) and vaccinated high school children (n = 368), 3.2-3.9% and 22.2-33.2%, respectively, were considered susceptible to secondary immune response. A second vaccination did not seem to lower this incidence. Even when estimates of symptomatic secondary immune response (e.g., secondary vaccine failure) were taken into account, susceptibility to subclinical secondary immune response was still 5-8 times higher after vaccination than after natural infection. Although viral transmission between protected individuals has never been directly demonstrated, the data describe a population in which protected but infectious persons could potentially be of epidemiological importance.

@Chris-
Stop stupid questions. I was lucky- I do not advocate against vaccinations-my
children were vaccinated on a delayed schedule-they are school aged, up to date and not exempted.

Get a grip people- How about SBM cleaning up this mess-
99,000 Die Yearly From Preventable Hospital Infections
As some 99,000 Americans die yearly from hospital-acquired infections, state laws are finally forcing hospitals to report the infections.

Can’t you people Ever argue with any integrity? What makes you think that these issues are mutually exclusive anon?

@ dt:

As shocking as this might seem, at the post wherein Ms Stagliano creates a metaphor involving a terrorist attack ( so what else is new? I’ve already heard holocaust), several critical comments by *qwerty*- a scientist whose child has autism- which make a great deal of sense are allowed through moderation. Will wonders ever cease?

For some reason, qwerty seems familar.. I think we may know him under another ‘nym.

@ Denice Walter…”qwerty” was not the only one who took a swipe at Stagmom. Another poster who says (s)he has autism takes great offense at Kim’s analogy to having a child on the “spectrum”, is like the bomb that terrorist Timothy McVeigh used, that destroyed the Oklahoma City building.

A few of the (somewhat) saner posters at AoA, have taken on Stagmom in the past, for her coarse and vulgar analogies and her vitriol.

Where’s John Stone? Why hasn’t he replied to specific questions that Chris and I posed to him?

Dr. Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP wrote:

Invective and anger have replaced honest discourse to a far greater degree than I recall when I was regular visitor a while back. That’s tragic.

I agree with Dr. Jay.

Over the last few years the tone in the comments section of RI has gotten more invective. This is a disappointing trend.

You won’t see the same trend in articles written on the other side.

A few years ago AoA portrayed some on the pro-science side as baby-murdering cannibals. Yet, this morning the first article there portrayed the same group as baby-murdering terrorists.

Yes, we are still a bunch of baby murderers, but we no longer eat our victims. I am certainly encouraged by this positive trend over at AoA and their efforts to be less invective. We should follow their good example.

@RTC#158

AoA is basically an antivaccine echo chamber. Their invective is usually impersonal and rages against the machine and gubmint conspiracies, rather than directed against individual posters (since dissenting opinion is usually not allowed by their ultrastrict moderation policy), but is quite distasteful for all that, and I see no trend it has become less so over the years.

AoA’s commenters and its posters often resort to baseless invective. What do you call the article by their founding member likening scientists to terrorist maniacs like McVey? A pleasant discourse on the science of autism?

At RI anyone can and does post, which will include antivax trolls and wingnuts (who will unfortunately eventually succeed sometimes in provoking a respopnse in kind).

Here the focus is on facts and evidence, but in a more conversational way, and the RI responses do not carry the science torch to the same extent that other blogs such as Sciencebased Medicine do. If you want discussions on the abtruse scientific aspects of the debate, I suggest you go there. Dr Jay does, but somehow he still prefers posting here, I see. His own posts are pretty trite and fact-free, you will notice. Perhaps he prefers it here because he can moan that he is being bullied by “invective” as a way of avoiding answering pertinent questions, but on RI his evasiveness would lack even that lame excuse?

dt @ 163 (for now):

The post numbers keep changing because the moderation filter holds up some comments but remembers where in the sequence of comments they were submitted. Once they’re approved they take the place they would have if they’d been approved right away, and all comments that came after are shifted down.

Also, I think you missed RTC’s sarcasm: although he purported to detect a distasteful “rise” in invective here at RI, he contrasted that with AOA’s supposed lowering of invective, where they went from calling us baby-killers who eat babies to calling us baby-killers who don’t eat babies. I hardly think he’s sincere in comparing RI unfavorably to AOA on the score of “invective”.

anon:

Get a grip people- How about SBM cleaning up this mess- 99,000 Die Yearly From Preventable Hospital Infections As some 99,000 Americans die yearly from hospital-acquired infections, state laws are finally forcing hospitals to report the infections.

There are many, many messes in the world, some easier to deal with than others. The presence of one mess doesn’t give us an excuse not to deal with any of the others. But more importantly, the *existence* of hospital acquired infections is, in my opinion, an excellent argument in favor of vaccination. Do everything in your power to avoid becoming sick enough to wind up in the hospital, and that includes getting vaccinated if possible. And if you are a healthcare worker, it is doubly important to get vaccinated, because some of those hospital- and clinic-acquired infections are, sadly enough, vaccine-preventable.

Some hospital-acquired infections may never be vaccine-preventable. I’m thinking particularly of antibiotic-resistant bacteria, some of which are strains of commensal organisms, where vaccination may end up doing a harm we haven’t recognized yet. That’s why researchers are working so hard to understand the process of evolving antibiotic resistance, so that they can prevent it from happening. One of my favorite examples of this research is actually happening on the International Space Station, because it turns out that prolonged microgravity greatly accelerates the rate of evolution. That’s right — they’re deliberately breeding space superbugs. They’re the same as the superbugs on earth; it’s just that they develop fast enough to make studying the process more practical. They did experiments aboard Shuttle, but as it was never up more than a few weeks, they were limited in how many generations they could get through. On the ISS, they can run the same experiments for months. It’s pretty awesome, and it could end up saving untold numbers of lives.

My daughter is seven months old, and I live in a high-woo area (Ann Arbor, MI.) One of my biggest fears is that some anti-vaxxer will get my daughter killed before she’s old enough for these vaccinations. It’s 2012. I shouldn’t have to worry about these things.

Your daughter almost got “killed” by the vaccines you gave her at birth, at two, four and at six months. No you shouldn’t be worried because you will surely get what you want. And by the time your daughter reaches one year of age, you may also want to enroll her in Shingles Club. And here is how it’s done. Just give her the varicella vaccine and she’s automatically qualified. Ask your pediatrician for more information and details on how to join.

Ooooh, anon’s a triathlete with big, wildmeasle titers. I am simply mad, mad I tell you, about a man with big titers!

I didn’t realize until now that this thread is incorrectly titled. It should be “Thanks, vaccinators. Thanks again for the shingles, measles, polio etc etc.” There FTFY Orac. Let’s begin with shingles, shall we?

Three things that will prove the stupidity of her (pro-immunization) physician:

1. Primary varicella infection is either caused by natural infection or primary varicella vaccination.

2. Primary varicella infection can be asymptomatic or symptomatic. It is contagious regardless.

3. Primary varicella infection (either by natural infection or vaccination) can lead to shingles.

Therefore pro-varicella vaccine physicians are stupid and dangerous shingles-promoting ignoramuses.

@161 Kelly

What is Th1Th2 doing here?

The usual…looking for attention. Seems RI is, unfortunately, the only place it can get any.

Hahaha. This thread is dead and so is the infection-promoting agenda of these stupid shingles-loving vaccinators, at least for the varicella vaccine.

Next time pick someone your own size.

Dr. Jay Gordon should be absolutely ashamed of himself, as should Dr. Bob Sears. To call yourself a pediatrician and be anti-vaccine is the same as being a pulmonologist who is pro-tobacco or a dentist who is anti-flouride. It’s just plain inexcusable and is medical malpractice. I am ashamed that the AAP is too whimpy to actually stand up to these money-grubbing charlatans. So many parents take the silence of the AAP as explicit endorsement of the lies perpetrated by Gordon and Sears, and near as I can tell, the AAP won’t denounce their sham schedules and advice because the AAP is afraid of facing a lawsuit from the likes of Sears or Gordon. I guess the AAP would rather be legally safe rather than being medically, morally and ethically right. This so goes against their “for the health of all children” motto that it is disgusting. Prove you really do care for vaccination by publicly standing up to these two dangerous quacks, AAP, and maybe some of us who have left you will come back. But I refuse to be in the same herd (the AAP) that Sears and Gordon hide in, because quite frankly, I can’t stand the smell of them anymore.

Chris Hickie, MD, PhD

What is Th1Th2 doing here?

Funnily enough, I find that interminable bore on the epigenetics thread much harder to take than thingy (at least while it sticks to silly rather than nasty.)

Liz @ 137: I don’t know if you heard, but the petition to get American Airlines to drop Meryl Dorey’s material was successful. They’re not going to air it.

Julian thank you. One good news item for the day.

adelady @181 – Seconded – The only difference between the bore and our regular trolls like thingy is the level education. They are equally mentally ill.

Julian – that was quick. I think a corner has been turned. I expect Meryl Dorey will double down on the crazy.

@lilady 80 – thanks, and sorry to make you blush:)

This comment by Sid (@77 -Posted by: Sid Offit | April 21, 2012 3:10 PM ) should be broadcast far and wide..

“Other people don’t exist to alleviate your paranoia. Worried? Get YOUR shots and keep YOUR kids home.”

These paranoid fanatics believe that every baby under a year old should stay home while they follow their specious theories? ( Sounds rather psychotic to me.. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002520/)

I doubt the herd would remain complacent if they truly realized the threat.

@ Dr. Hickey, I agree that the AAP has been completely flaccid with regards to some of it’s “alternative” members like Sears and Gordon, however, what can you expect from an organisation that actually panders to alternative practitioners? http://www2.aap.org/sections/chim/default.cfm

@ Science Mom: I used the “search” section of that website to search for any pediatricians who have listed themselves as alternative pediatric practitioners:

http://www.healthychildren.org/English/tips-tools/find-pediatrician/Pages/Pediatrician-Referral-Service.aspx

I located only one pediatrician listed in Santa Monica…the “pediatrician to the stars”, Jay Gordon.

I located only one pediatrician in Capistrano Beach…Bob (Alternative Vaccine Schedules) Sears.

@ Bill Price:

“I lived within a mile of there for over twenty years, and never knew about these clowns until I moved away.”

Bill…that is why we come to RI…to learn all about the clowns 🙂

Unfortunately, larger organizations like the AAP move slowly – unlike single individuals like Dr. Gordon & Sears, who can pretty much do as they please. They also have the option of acting like the “victim” and pulling the martyr card if the AAP ever came down on them (which plays well with their supporters).

I, too, would love to see more information out there – but I understand the limitations and the time it would take to “turn the battleship.”

It’s just as sad the AAP really has nothing on its web sites that is easy to find that specifically as a policy statement condemns any/all alternative schedules, including those that delay and skip vaccines.

@ Dr. Hickie, that is because the AAP doesn’t condemn alternate vaccine schedules and has a bioethics statement regarding dismissal from a practice should be a last resort: http://neoreviews.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/127/Supplement_1/S127.full

A few months ago I wrote the state AAP (AzAAP) chapter and they forward my letter to AAP headquarters where I actually did get to talk to their media relations director and then President Block, who was the one who told me of AAP fears of being sued for defamation of character if they publicly denounced Sears or Gordon. I suggested they at least consider denouncing their schedules as a simple matter of fact on their web site and he told me it would be looked into, but that was over 2 mos ago and nothing has happened and no one has contacted me since, so I can mostly assume nothing will happen.

If they told you that then I believe that’s a load of bollocks. They have published Dr. Offit’s skewering of Sears in Pediatrics after all. My guess is that they don’t want to directly attack “one of their own”. Your assumption that nothing will happen is probably correct.

Science Mom, My impression is the AAP was happy to publish Offit & Moser because it was Offit & Moser criticizing Sears and the AAP was simply providing the forum for discussion (in which Sears did publish his response(s) to Offit & Moser). I pointed out to the director of media relations for the AAP that they had no problem criticizing Wakefield on their web site, and he corrected me, saying the AAP had not directly criticized Wakefield (using instead other’s opinions and findings) and was glad they hadn’t, since Wakefield was now suing for libel everyone who publicly criticized him. This hacked me off because the AAP is essentially admitting it hasn’t the courage of its convictions and relies on others (such as Offit & Moser) to be surrogates for their unpublished opinions.

I am equally upset given that on the one hand the AAP will not forcefully come out against these alternate schedules, but then on the other tells me I’m not to dismiss families where the parents are barely, if at all, vaccinating their children. It doesn’t seem right that they won’t support pediatricians at one end but then want us to take the risk (because we’re not supposed to dismiss non-vaccinating families) at the other end of an unvaccinated child bringing measles, pertussis or chicken pox into our waiting rooms and infecting the littlest ones with a disease for which they were too young to receive vaccine. I don’t think it’s right they play this both ways. I haven’t dismissed under/non-vaccinating families yet, but given this pertussis death, the consideration of dismissing these families becomes a sad but probably necessary reality to protect the wee ones as vaccination rates continue to plummet.

Chris Hickle – it’s not surprising to me that the AAP is silent on members like sears and gordon. Jeez, they wouldn’t even go on the offensive against Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carey!

I always wondered why the AAP didn’t come out with a statement of how their vaccine policy is determined by worldwide recognized experts in immunology, and not by washed up Playboy models or teo-bit actors.

What we they afraid of? Insulting the ex-playboy modelcontingent?

Take a look at this Wikipedia entry for the IDSA (Infectious Disease Society of America), under “Lyme disease treatment guidelines”…to see how certain doctors who were treating *chronic Lyme disease*…manipulated Richard Blumenthal, Connecticut Attorney General, to bring a lawsuit against the IDSA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infectious_Diseases_Society_of_America

Doctors who formulated the IDSA Lyme disease treatment guidelines, were threatened by *chronic Lyme disease patients* at their workplace and at public meetings.

The *so-called* LLMDs (Lyme Literate Medical Doctors) who have treated and continue to treat *chronic Lyme disease* patients with long term IV antibiotics, chelation and HBOT, are free to practice…unless there is a patient-generated complaint or if a patient dies from treatment for *chronic Lyme disease*. Here’s a real bad ass doctor who was already convicted of manslaughter in the death of a patient, and who faces new criminal charges:

http://cjonline.com/news/state/2010-10-26/ex_physician_convicted_of_fraud

I’m still waiting for the AAP to stand behind their recommendations for timely and complete immunizations according to their own and CDC’s Recommended Childhood Immunization Schedule. Shame on them.

Sorry for the rant. I merely wanted to point out that the IDSA stood their ground…in spite of the onslaught of *Lyme Disease Support Groups*, *LLMDs* and a criminal charge brought against the IDSA by Richard Blumenthal. This is in sharp contrast to the AAP, which is aware of certain doctors (Dr. Jay Gordon M.D., FAAP, Dr. Bob Sears M.D., FAAP…and others), who have *alternative schedules*, are listed as *vaccine friendly doctors* and who encourage parents to make up their *own schedules* for immunizations.

Yeah, I’ll continue to post on the Ho-Po about childhood immunizations…and if Dr. Bob Sears *allows* my comments to get out of moderation, I’ll nail him, again.

You just have to Google under the Huffington Post Header…here’s a listing of Dr. Bob Sears’ articles. See the Sears article about California AB 2109:

http://search.huffingtonpost.com/search?o_q=vaccines&s_it=topsearchbox.search&q=dr.+bob+sears

You can also “Google” autism, autism/vaccines, etc.

Some of the RI regulars also post on the Ho-Po and we often “alert” each other through our posts here on RI.

@ Ashley @ C is for Cockerham:

I’ve been alerting readers to them since their inception- which was assisted by Age of Autism. I don’t comment on anti-vaccine/ alt med blogs but perhaps someone else here might. I doubt it would do much good- however they may have a few readers who might still be ‘on the fence’.

@ Ashley: That site that you linked to had a chart of “mandatory vaccines”; I enlarged it and “Googled” the web page (drmomma.org), where they got that chart:

Look at this…directions to make placental chocolate truffles:

http://www.drmomma.org/2012/04/chocolate-placenta-truffles.html

Oh yummy…just when you think the TMR can’t get any whackier…they ally themselves with a chiropractor who provides this recipe.

Would you believe that you can become a “placental encapsulation specialist”?

http://placentabenefits.info/

For $295…you too, can be *certified* as a “placental encapsulation specialist”.

Apparently, you are supposed to ask delivery room staff for your placenta…your partner can then take it home and refrigerate or freeze and call the *certified placental encapsulation specialist* to pick it up. The following day the *CPES* returns with gel capsules filled up with chopped up placenta.

I suspect the above comment is going to fetch the author some Insolence very soon.

^ Did someone say something about a newfangled gizmo called “preview”? Bold should be “MDC” alone.

Again, denialism relies upon the time-worn strategy of taking quotes and information *out of context*-
in the post, a commenter who makes certain suggestions is quoted BUT those who think that this ISN’T a great idea are left out of the picture ( i.e, Antaeus, lilady, Liz, Vicki and yours truly)- this might give a false impression about RI.
To be fair, they do link to the comments section.

They probably see us as evil faeries, witches, dragons and demons anyway- so what’s the difference?

@ Denice Walter…..

“They probably see us as evil faeries, witches, dragons and demons anyway- so what’s the difference?”

OK. Here is how we see them…..

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/152/5/4/cletus__the_slack_jawed_yokel_by_leeroberts-d3ht7iq.png

How they see us…..

http://www.stevebromley.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/evil-scientist.png

lsm: “Jake is really stretching.”

Yes. He’s stretching his arsehole. So that he can get every last being of shit out of it for his ‘writing’.