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Update on California bill AB 2109: It moves on despite the antivaccine movement

It just occurred to me that, even though there was news about it, I never mentioned what’s happened recently with respect to California bill AB2109. As you might recall, I wrote about this bill about four weeks ago. In brief, this bill, if passed into law, would require that California parents seeking a “personal belief” exemption for vaccines to meet with a physician and have a physician sign off on what is more or less an informed consent form stating that the parents had been informed of the risks and benefits of vaccines and, more importantly for purposes of the personal belief exemption, the risks (many) and benefits (virtually none) of not vaccinating. Parents would still be able to refuse to vaccinate by claiming that vaccines are against their “personal beliefs” (whatever that means). They just wouldn’t be able to do it by signing a form at school, no questions asked. In other words, the law would make it just a little more difficult to obtain a personal belief exemption, and that’s a good thing, because right now in California it’s easier to get a personal belief exemption than it is to actually have your children vaccinated. That means that it’s not just antivaccine parents who use the personal belief exemption but parents who aren’t antivaccine but are just too darned lazy or unconcerned to make sure their children are vaccinated.

It turns out that earlier this week, a hearing on AB2109 was held by the California Assembly Committee on Health. According to a local news report, the California Medical Association, the California Pharmacy Association, the Association of Physician Assistants, the California State Employees Association, the County Health Executive Association, as well as the doctors and dentists’ unions all lined up to testify in support of the bill. In addition, Health care workers lined up to endorse the bill, including doctors, medical students, and nurses, as well they should. After all, primary care doctors, especially pediatricians, understand the value of vaccination more than anyone; that is, with one rather despicable exception. Yes, we’re talking about Bob Sears:

“A free choice that is contingent upon finding another person to sign off on your free choice is not really a free choice at all,” said Dr. Bob Sears, a pediatrician.

Sears is against the law. He joined protestors on the Capitol steps Tuesday, to argue against the rule change.

On Facebook, Dr. Sears was a bit less…restrained:

THE FIGHT ISN’T OVER. Ya, we lost this battle, but we expected that and were praying for Divine intervention. We can’t give up. The more legislators we can keep against this bill, the less likely it will be to eventually make it off the Governor’s desk with a signature. So, every call matters!!! Start calling your Assembly person. Here is one thought on the meeting:

You saw the long parade of doctors all “conveniently” saying they would sign their patients’ exemption waiver. You know what this means? IT MEANS WE ARE BEING EFFECTIVE. WE’VE CALLED THE DEMOCRATS OUT ON ONE OF THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS WITH THE BILL. If this wasn’t a major problem, then the democrats wouldn’t have needed to bother with getting all those doctors up there and obviously and blantantly coaching them, each and every one of them, to say exactly the same thing. You’d think they’d at least try to make it not so obvious. This tells me that they are worried about this issue because they KNOW it’s an issue. This makes it obvious that it’s NOT a done deal. They know they might not win in the end, so they are fighting. That’s a good sign. Hats off to Dawn Winkler and everyone else for all the hard work. Keep it up!!!

Dr. Bob sounds a bit unhinged here, don’t you think? I mean, seriously. He’s using all caps and everything and combining it with paranoia. Does he have any evidence that legislators supporting the bill coached any of the physicians who testified in favor of the bill. Or that they somehow did anything questionable at all.

I also notice that Bob Sears is actually paying tribute to Dawn Winkler, thanking her for her efforts to combat the bill. Some of you might know who Dawn Winkler is, but for those of you who don’t I’ll refer you to a couple of posts I wrote about her nearly six years ago when I referred to her as an “antivaccine activist running for governor of the state of Colorado.” And that’s what she was at the time, too, a die-hard antivaccinationist spouting the most ridiculous pseudoscience and misinformation about vaccines. In fact, I have to wonder whether Winkler’s rubbing off on Sears. She’s pretty unhinged when she rants about vaccines. Now, “Dr. Bob” is starting to sound a little unhinged himself about vaccines. Maybe it was just the disappointment of having been trounced so nicely. Let’s see how he sounds compared to Dawn Winkler’s testimony:

Winkler, the California State co-director of the National Vaccine Information Center, and executive director of Health Advocacy in the Public Interest, said the bill was not about parents receiving more accurate information about vaccinations. “They already have that available,” Winkler said. “This is about parents’ rights, under the law. Why on earth should parents have to obtain more information about vaccinations and opt-out permission? This will interfere with the right to free education and the right to religious freedom. This bill poses a threat to freedom.”

So that explains what’s happened to Winkler in the six years since I last recall mentioning her. How appropriate. She’s with the antivaccine group the NVIC now, which makes perfect sense. I just didn’t know she had moved to California. In any case, Winkler can’t argue the science, as much as she thinks she can; so instead she retreats to overwrought “health freedom”-style arguments, particularly “parents’ rights” arguments. Here’s the problem: Parents’ rights are not absolute by any stretch of the imagination, nor should they be. Parents, for instance, are not allowed to deny their children life-saving medical care for a life-threatening disease. Remember Madeline Neumann? She was an 11-year-old whose parents relied on prayer instead of insulin to treat diabetic ketoacidosis. Madeline died, and her parents were prosecuted for second degree reckless homicide. Another child named Ava Worthington died when she developed bronchial pneumonia and her parents, belonging to a religion that eschews medical care, did not seek treatment. No, my point is not to advocate prosecuting antivaccine parents for neglect or abuse. Rather, it’s to point out that there is another being in the equation besides them. The child has interests that deserve protection. If anything AB2109 doesn’t go far enough in protecting those interests, but it’s better than the law as it stands now. Finally, “health freedom” means nothing more than the freedom of quacks from pesky government laws and regulations against their quackery, and “parental choice” means refusing vaccines based on pseudoscience.

Unfortunately, in this country, there is a widespread apparent belief that parents’ rights are the only rights that matter. As a consequence, in this country, we tend to grant parents wide latitude in making health care choices for their children. While in most cases this is appropriate, unfortunately, the law sometimes seems to bend over backwards to protect parents’ rights.

Particularly amusing (or it would be amusing if it weren’t so racist) is this objection to AB2109:

The unspeakable issue at the root of Pan’s bill is the influx of children from other countries into California’s public schools, who bring with them new strains of measles, mumps, chicken pox and flu bugs, among other communicable diseases. Children who have recently traveled out of the country also bring home infectious diseases.

It is not politically correct to address that problem. Instead the Legislature is proposing that everyone get vaccinated.

It’s no different that a teacher punishing the entire class because of one bad kid. The inability to single out the issue is the problem.

TRANSLATION: “It’s the wetbacks spreading disease, not our good, clean American children. Instead of restricting the Health Freedom of Real Americans, we should do something about them wetbacks, don’tcha think?”

No, I don’t think that’s a straw man, either, and, yes, as I said, it’s racist. Not only is this objection racist, but it’s almost certainly wrong. Most of the schools with the highest personal exemption rates are not in areas where there are a lot of illegal immigrants. Oh, no. They’re in Marin County and places where there are lots of upper middle class white people who’ve imbibed the antivaccine nonsense on the University of Google and developed the arrogance of ignorance that lead them to believe that they know more about vaccines experts who have spent their entire professional career studying vaccines.

There’s one final issue with this bill. I couldn’t find it mentioned in any of the news reports anywhere and the text of the bill doesn’t reflect this change, at least not yet, but apparently an amendment was added to the bill before it got out of committee that would allow naturopaths to counsel parents on the risks and benefits of vaccines and sign the exemption form under the supervision of a licensed physician. If this is true, it’s a disaster for the bill that will provide a loophole the size of an aircraft carrier for antivaccine parents. It’s something that really needs to be stripped from the bill before it’s voted on; failure to do so will render the bill much less effective, perhaps even nearly useless.

This brings up another issue, that of licensing naturopaths and giving them prescribing privileges (which naturopaths have in a limited form in California). Naturopaths have been waging a largely successful campaign to expand the number of states that license them and allow them prescribing privileges. They’ve been all too successful in rebranding themselves as a real alternative to physicians as primary care doctors. Because they have the imprimatur of the state through their licensure, they’ve achieved a level of respectability that is completely undeserved based on the rank pseudoscience and quackery they practice. Legislators do not realize this and hence most of them probably don’t know that naturopaths practice quackery. It probably seemed a perfectly reasonable compromise to the committee, given that one of the major objections of antivaccinationists to the bill is that, in its original form, it didn’t allow alternative medicine practitioners to sign the exemption form. Assuming the reports I’ve received are true and the Assembly did amend the bill to allow naturopaths to sign the exemption forms, it points to just how far reaching and corrosive to science-based medicine licensing naturopaths is.

In the short term, what needs to happen is that proponents of science-based medicine need to work to persuade the Assembly to strip the amendment from the bill that allows naturopaths to counsel patients on vaccine risks and benefits. It has been shown before that there is an association between seeing naturopaths and not receiving all recommended vaccines; there’s also an association between naturopathic care and catching a vaccine-preventable disease. So getting naturopaths off the list of health care professionals who can counsel parents about vaccines should be a no-brainer. Next, in the long term, the next effort must be to oppose licensure of naturopaths and to go beyond that, to roll back licensure of naturopaths in every state in which they are licensed. Such licensure serves no purpose other than to enrich quacks, and, based on the example of AB2109, it has far-reaching corrosive effects on medical policy. It needs to end.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

463 replies on “Update on California bill AB 2109: It moves on despite the antivaccine movement”

The unspeakable issue at the root of Pan’s bill is the influx of children from other countries into California’s public schools, who bring with them new strains of measles, mumps, chicken pox and flu bugs, among other communicable diseases. Children who have recently traveled out of the country also bring home infectious diseases.

Like the children of missionaries, for example?

How uncomprehending do you have to be to fail to realize pointing out that an influx of immigrant children and numbers of resident children who have traveled abroad increases the overall risk of infection argues strongly in support of immunization, rather than against it?

Good point, JGC. And how crazy do you have to be to see the parade of doctors willing to sign off on exemptions as a sign of a conspiracy *against* your desire not to vaccinate? “Oooh, there are doctors who, like me, will support their patients’ decision not to vaccinate. IT’S A CONSPIRACY PLANTED BY EVIL DEMS!!!!!!”

JCG and Calli: Your arguments have one flaw. You are using logic instead of thinking like anti-vaxers.

Problem: Immigrant children expose our population to new strains of infectious diseases.

Solution: I like turtles. My uncle was once made into a hat.

(that more like it?)

she retreats to overwrought “health freedom”-style arguments, particularly “parents’ rights” arguments. Here’s the problem: Parents’ rights are not absolute by any stretch of the imagination, nor should they be.

That’s one thing that really got to me with a lot of autism curebies using Lupron, chelation, and all the other nasty stuff: Whenever I got into an argument with them, their position certainly seemed, “My children, my property, so I can do whatever I want with them and you can’t stop me.”

@ Bronze Dog:

I wonder if that attitude is connected to the perception that their “real child” has been “taken away” by the vaccines. If you believe that you’re dealing with an empty shell instead of an actual human being, it seems to me like that makes it a lot easier to disregard them having any rights worth considering.

That level of dehumanization is positively revolting in organizations claiming to be about autism advocacy.

Before you go calling Naturopathic Doctors quacks, you might like to know that traditional doctors ( highly respected specialists of several types) nearly killed my daughter with their inaccurate diagnosis and treatments. It was only out of desperation that I took her to an ND who in turn saved her life and gave her back her complete health and peace of mind. She had VCD caused by severe acid reflux. She was suffocating and terrified at the age of 10. It was a nightmare that continued to escalate with each doctor we saw until the ND treated her properly and appropriately with the correct methodology and diet change. She is a vibrant and successful young woman now with no health problems thanks to our brilliant ND. I urge you to be careful about discrediting NDs and their licensure. You may very well be taking away a person’s only hope in their quest for health.

I wonder if that attitude is connected to the perception that their “real child” has been “taken away” by the vaccines. If you believe that you’re dealing with an empty shell instead of an actual human being, it seems to me like that makes it a lot easier to disregard them having any rights worth considering.

That level of dehumanization is positively revolting in organizations claiming to be about autism advocacy.

That makes a disturbing amount of sense.

Children who have recently traveled out of the country also bring home infectious diseases.

Like the intentionally unvaccinated child who brought Measles to San Diego in 2008?

@Anonymous
I’m sorry that medicine is not an exact science and your daughter suffered as a result of mis-diagnosis. While the ND may get some deserved credit for promoting a diet change, your daughter’s health is due less to the ‘brilliant’ ND and more to her genetics and a healthy diet.

Anonymous,

What “correct methodology” did your brilliant ND use to cure your daughter? And how do you back up your statement that real doctors “almost killed her”?

Vaccine science is junk science. Notice the lack of vaccine information and vaccine risks not being discussed here. Plenty of race-baiting, and Party worship/demonization.
My wife & I (both nurses for more than 20 years)have researched this vaccine information at length and to force us to try to find a doctor, within our Insurance limited-choices, that will agree that we have a right to make an “informed consent” is both an insult and unreasonable.
Some main points to consider; 1) Big Pharma operates by placing profits BEFORE safety (research Bayer factor 8 and how they knowingly gave HIV tainted drugs to hemophiliacs causing death and permanent damage to many of these patients. 2)Much in the same way that digestion starts with chewing, the immune response is triggered at the NATURAL body entry points (nose/mouth & less often other openeings). To ARTIFICIALLY introduce hostile/dangerous/cancer-causing organisms AROUND these points (injection) bypasses the immune system’s proper triggering.
There is way more information available at NVIC dot org and elsewhere. Question: If vaccines truly protect us, why are unvaccinated people a danger to us “protected” folks?
Lastly, Informed Consent is one of the few reamining American values left that keep us from being in the same class as the Nazi’s.

What timing! I checked in at exactly the right time to see the first Godwin of the thread! No doubt Holocaust analogies will soon follow.

@ Orac:
Isn’t today *the day* – you-know-who’s you know what? Which is kinda like N-zi Bastille Day or suchlike.

In other news:
there is gnashing of teeth and rending of garments @ AoA because a billboard says that 1 in 88 are BORN with autism!

@jw salthouse

You invoked Godwin’s law, you automatically lose your argument.

Considering the unhinged tone of your little rant, it wasn’t much of a winner in the first place.

You would think that someone who has been a nurse for 20 years would know that vaccinations are not 100% effective. So I’m guessing that JW Salthouse is either not really a nurse, or is a nurse – just a very bad one. I’m also wondering why a nurse wouldn’t also realize that people with compromised immune systems i.e. chemo patients, AIDS patients, organ donor recipients; are also vulnerable.

THE FIGHT ISN’T OVER. Ya, we lost this battle, but we expected that and were praying for Divine intervention.

Yes, because God likes dead kids.

@JW Salthouse
Nice USE OF CAPS. NOT TOO MUCH but with just the right dramatic flair.

Your comprehension of science is abysmal. A nurse graduating today gets a far better grounding in biology and biochemistry than you obviously got. And Nazis. Or something.

I agree that Dr. Bob sounds increasingly unhinged; it’s evident in this rant as well: http://tacanowblog.com/2012/04/10/so-autism-is-common-who-cares/ The arguments against this bill were so weak, melodramatic and inaccurate that opponents should be grateful for the time they did have to argue against it.

JW Salthouse, I can only hope that you and your wife are never any where near me and my family for medical care. Your education has failed you miserably.

JW Salthouse

Lastly, Informed Consent is one of the few reamining American values left that keep us from being in the same class as the Nazi’s.

If you support informed consent, you ought to be supportive of a bill (CA AB2109) that requires it.

JW Salthouse has polluted the internet with his lunatic rantings about New World Order, Skull & Bones nonsense, climate change conspiracy, Alex Jones and all the same old same old.

He calls himself a “health care professional”, “investigative journalist” and “citizen activist” on his online profile.

Today he proved he knows absolutely nothing about science.

It did follow the classic pattern though.

1. Appeal to authority.
2. Poisoning the well.
3. Big Pharma conspiracy.
4. A variant of the “Natural” argument.
5. Teh Toxins.
6. Illogical rhetorical question.
7. And capping it off with A violation of Godwin’s law.

Do they use some kind of software to write this stuff? Just check various boxes and presto…one crank posting coming up!
Don’t forget there are some new corollaries of Godwin’s law out. They include sheep, sheeple, lemmings, and Kool-aide.

“Winkler, the California State co-director of the National Vaccine Information Center, and executive director of Health Advocacy in the Public Interest, said the bill was not about parents receiving more accurate information about vaccinations. “They already have that available,” Winkler said.”

I also give out medication monographs with every prescription but that doesn’t mean my patients actually read them. If there is something important that I think they need to know I will give personal counseling. There is perhaps too much information available to patients these days and is very difficult to pick through. I can appreciate the doctors in California being able to give accurate information to a person in a last effort to counter what their neighbor, friend, absurd website, etc told them. Even if a few more parents take the blinders off after this conversation that would be a small step in the right direction for California

Parents’ rights are not absolute by any stretch of the imagination, nor should they be.

Indeed.

If you are the caregiver of a child, whether on account of being the child’s biological parent, legal guardian, etc, you have a responsibility to look out for the child’s best interests. If your beliefs, desires, whims, and such run contra to your child’s best interests, then IMO it is your responsibility to put them aside when making decisions on behalf of your child.

All of this ‘health freedom’ rhetoric is, on my view, dangerously close to allowing parents & other caregivers to violate their children’s rights.

More anti-vaccine propaganda, courtesy of Natural News today:

PF Louis reports that vaccines cause polio-like illness in India. The Gates are demonised as usual.

Mike Adams interviews ( printed) Russell Blaylock about vaccines- it’s all there: conspiracy, Godwins and a new one for me – vaccines cause autism and schizophrenia!

If you read material like this or the collection of antivax articles @ PRN, you’ll see how trolls get “educated”.
A small incestuous group with a limited set of mis-informing topics passed around ceaselessly to an enraptured and enthusiastic audience.

I’m almost hoping the “high fructose corn syrup” and autism pseudo-linkage takes off, only because in this part of the country we welcome any excuse to despise Archer Daniels Midland.

It is not politically correct to address that problem.

As I said in another thread, a lot of people complaining about “politically correct” turn out to be jerks annoyed that they cannot say something offending (generally racist and/or sexist) and being called for it.
I rest my case.

@ JGC

Yeah, it’s sort of puzzling. Let’s forget an instant Winkler’s mention of all of these disease-ridden immigrants; is she also advocating against good Americans travelling abroad to these filthy countries, and/or for quarantining them as they come back home? Without even giving them the choice to immunize themselves before travelling?

For someone so fierce about freedom issues, that’s some serious freedom-stomping, here.

“…the immune response is triggered at the NATURAL body entry points (nose/mouth & less often other openeings). To ARTIFICIALLY introduce hostile/dangerous/cancer-causing organisms AROUND these points (injection) bypasses the immune system’s proper triggering.”

By this statement, I conclude that JB believes that oral and nasal mist vaccines do not bypass the immune system’s proper triggering and bites, scrapes, cuts, punctures, and other similar woulds that break or penetrate the skin also bypass the immune system’s proper triggering.

Dr. Jay Gordon on his website, refers us to his opinions about the pending legislation, and his recent radio debate with Assemblyman Richard Pan M.D. (Sponsor of California AB 2109)

http://www.scpr.org/programs/airtalk/2012/03/02/22755/vaccination-bill

(The things I do for science and for Respectful Insolence) Dr. Jay *claims* to be all for counseling. He also *claims* that government intrusion/interference is unnecessary and will lead to…

-Increased risk of kids and their non-vaccinating parents being ejected from a pediatrics practice.

-Increased mistrust of pediatricians…leading to a decrease in overall communication and, a decrease in the quality of overall health care for children.

Dr. Jay also says he consulted an attorney and in Jay’s opinion, the form that the doctor signs that states (s)he has provided accurate information about immunizations, will lead to increased lawsuits against doctors, if an unimmunized child is infected with a vaccine-preventable disease.

I read from that rant that Dr. Sears is saying that there was perjury, willing and negligent, going on at those hearings. I wonder if he could back it up with proof. Not that he needs any real proof of anything for his followers to believe him, in my opinion. Maybe we could contact one or two of those people who testified for the bill and ask them if they were coached?

Heck, I’m free for the evening.

Since today is a special Friday… I hope that RI readers will grant me the indulgence of one last piece of (semi-related) anti-vax nonsense before I close up shop. I thank you in advance….

@ Thinking Moms’ Revolution today:
Poppy writes about cannabis for ASD.
Doesn’t *that* ring a bell! A UK-based effort is mentioned.
A-hem!

Residents of California who read RI: You have work to do. The bill will next be heard by the Appropriations Committee. As of this writing, the bill hasn’t been scheduled for hearing.

You need to write letters to the committee members, make calls to their offices, and otherwise loudly express your support for this bill.

The vaccine rejectionists were able to muster hundreds of letters in opposition to the Health Committee. One group of chiropractic students faxed over 300 letters in opposition!.

I’ve set up a website to make it all easy for you. Go to http://californianssupportingab2109.blogspot.com/. There you will find background materials, pre-addressed draft letters to members of the Appropriations Committee, and other suggested messages.

The best thing to do, according to my sources, is to fax letters of support to all the committee members. Second best is to call the committee members’ offices. Third is to use the committee members’ contact forms.

There will be resources for all of the above by the end of today.

The rest of that “CalWatchDog” piece is a real treat.

Parents testified that they were intelligent and educated enough to make the decision to vaccinate or not. “I am a Carnegie Mellon graduate. My son got the mandatory Hepatitus B cavvination [sic] and got very sick,” a mother testified.

“I am a member of MENSA, have a bachelors degree and am smart enough to make the choice for my family,” another mother testified.

By this statement, I conclude that JB believes that oral and nasal mist vaccines do not bypass the immune system’s proper triggering and bites, scrapes, cuts, punctures, and other similar woulds that break or penetrate the skin also bypass the immune system’s proper triggering.

Obviously, it is the trauma of vaccination that destroys the natural superman-like impenetrable barrier of the skin and renders it susceptible to bites, scrapes, cuts, punctures, pimples, rashes, and the like.

To ARTIFICIALLY introduce hostile/dangerous/cancer-causing organisms AROUND these points (injection) bypasses the immune system’s proper triggering.

Citations desparately needed here: please describe in detail the steps which occur when the immune system is “properly triggered”, and how that differs from the steps that occur when “improperly triggered” by vaccination–are different molecules involved? Different cell types?

Question: If vaccines truly protect us, why are unvaccinated people a danger to us “protected” folks?

Because they serve as potential vectors of infection and compromise herd immunity (surely you’re familiar with the term, having been nurses for 20 years and having done all that research?)

2)Much in the same way that digestion starts with chewing, the immune response is triggered at the NATURAL body entry points (nose/mouth & less often other openeings). To ARTIFICIALLY introduce hostile/dangerous/cancer-causing organisms AROUND these points (injection) bypasses the immune system’s proper triggering.

In addition to JGC’s points, please contrast with the immune response when organisms are introduced via a skinned knee, puncture by a thorn, or cut from falling on a rock.

“Vaccine science is junk science. Notice the lack of vaccine information and vaccine risks not being discussed here. Plenty of race-baiting, and Party worship/demonization.
My wife & I (both nurses for more than 20 years)have researched this vaccine information at length and to force us to try to find a doctor, within our Insurance limited-choices, that will agree that we have a right to make an “informed consent” is both an insult and unreasonable.”

JW Salthouse is not a Registered Nurse…he is a Licensed Vocational Nurse:

http://www2.dca.ca.gov/pls/wllpub/WLLQRYNA$LCEV2.QueryView?P_LICENSE_NUMBER=152085&P_LTE_ID=815

Joseph William Salthouse LVN, is married to Carol Salthouse who is a Registered Nurse. She has had a number of charges brought against for professional misconduct and impairment for street drugs. She has spent time in jail for domestic violence and use of methaphetamines:

http://rn.ca.gov/public/rn502528.pdf

Sorry JW…I need to defend Registered Nurses and I find your comments truly offensive.

lilady,
BSc-Nursing, R.N.

lilady @31 : 

Dr. Jay also says he consulted an attorney and in Jay’s opinion, the form that the doctor signs that states (s)he has provided accurate information about immunizations, will lead to increased lawsuits against doctors, if an unimmunized child is infected with a vaccine-preventable disease.

I figured all along that was the objection.  As things stand now, an antivax doctor can just not discuss vaccines.  The parent brings the child to him, knowing he’s antivax, and the topic just doesn’t come up.  If the child gets a vaccine-preventable disease, well, tough luck.  It was the parents’ responsibility to decide.

But under this law, the antivax doctor has to make a choice.

He can truthfully explain the risks and benefits of vaccinating versus the risks and benefits of leaving the child unvaccinated and hoping for herd immunity or a mild case if the child gets a vaccine-preventable disease; in this case he can sign the declaration truthfully, but the parent could easily be offended by the truth (or appalled to learn the truth at last and resolve to see a better doctor) and leave his practice.

On the other hand, the antivax doctor can parrot all the misinformation found on the Internet or in the books of other antivax doctors, and sign the declaration claiming he presented the risks and benefits.  That will keep the parent happy and the child unvaccinated, but if the child gets a vaccine-preventable disease, the parent is going to suddenly remember all that misinformation that the antivax doctor spewed and he’s going to be looking at a malpractice suit.  The authorities might be interested in that too.

For that matter, an antivax doctor might need to worry about stings — maybe that new parent who just came in wanting to keep the child unvaccinated knows what the risks and benefits are and  intends to report what misinformation the antivaxxer is passing out under the guise of medical practice.

@ LW: I don’t think Dr. Jay would be worried about stings…because his own website is so blatantly urging parents to use their own judgment (mommy/daddy intuition trumps the recommendations from the CDC and the American Academy of Pediatrics.)

A member of Dr. Jay’s staff (Cheryl Taylor), who is not a doctor, not a nurse, not a Physician Assistant…but who *manages* his website…is dispensing medical advice about vaccines:

http://drjaygordon.com/vaccinations/vaccination-schedule.html

Here’s Dr. Jay’s *advice* about Prevnar vaccine (February 23, 2010)

http://drjaygordon.com/vaccinations/overview.html

“The Prevnar vaccine is too new for me to recommend. The number of cases of Pneumococcal ear infections which could be prevented is very small and the number of cases of meningitis prevented is also small. I have no quarrel with doctors who recommend the shot or with parents who choose to get it. I have very strong objections to advertising this immunization to the general public on television. I don’t think enough information can be disseminated in 60 seconds.”

(Prevnar 7 valent was recommended by the AAP, ten years before…June, 2000)

http://www.immunize.org/vis/vis-pcv.pdf

I’d like to ask Dr. Jay what credentials Cheryl has to recommend that it is “a wise decision to initially delay vaccines on a 5 mo. old preemie”, that said preemie “has a very immature nervous system that could not react well to an assault to that system” (though I think she meant immune system), and that “Waiting until a year is an easy to support decision”?

Is she a nurse? An immunologist? A neurobiologist? Heck, an epidemiologist? (I’ll even take a medical assistant.)

I do wonder what kind of flack I myself would catch (in the form of a rather lengthy and hilarious email from one “JC” [not of Nazareth] to the health department in which he confuses libel with slander and vice-versa and is utterly clueless of the meaning of the verb “stalking”) if I were to answer a question in a similar manner, only, you know, saying that delaying vaccines on a preemie only puts that preemie at a higher risk for things that kill preemies.

But that’s just me. You don’t have to answer, Dr. Jay (if you still lurk these here internetz).

@ Ren: Cheryl’s got plenty of *credentials*…she’s Dr. Jay’s in-house “lactation specialist”!

Where is the pediatrician to the stars(?)…he’s always quick to come here, to offer up a defense about allowing mommies (and daddies) to decide when, and if, their children will be immunized.

Well, we know that the little editor has been lurking here:

http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/04/from-the-editor.html#comments

Ren, don’t preemies get the very expensive RSV vaccine? I talked to a woman who told me her premature twins received this vaccine because it was something that was dangerous to preemies, but it was expensive (fortunately she had insurance).

She also said it was very important for her twins to be current on vaccinations, and that they were not delayed by much, except by length of initial hospital stay (my sister spent three months in the hospital after being born two months early almost fifty years ago).

Ren, I have a minor request. I read a comment somewhere that Mexico has very good immunization regulations, and someone here recently posted that their rates are better than the USA. As you can see above with Ms. Winkler’s rant that she is implying folks crossing the border from the south are bringing in disease:

The unspeakable issue at the root of Pan’s bill is the influx of children from other countries into California’s public schools, who bring with them new strains of measles, mumps, chicken pox and flu bugs, among other communicable diseases.

Somehow the kid who started a measles outbreak in San Diego after visiting Europe does not count.

Could you provide link to the relevant Mexican government pages on immunization, please? I tried looking, but I mostly get travel to Mexico advice. I did find the levels of immunization (which are better than the USA), but not the regulations. Thank you in advance.

Liz, your living in a dreamworld. There is no evidence to support your fantasy that:

While the cause of the outbreak was clearly multifactorial, vaccine refusal played a significant part.

Get help.

Does Sid work for The Onion? Real people are not that stupid are they? Are they????

“Does Sid work for The Onion?

-No, The Onion writers are clever and Offal isn’t.

“Real people are not that stupid are they? Are they????”

-Yes, to both of your questions.

Offal seems fixated on the 2008 San Diego Measles and questioned my usage of the term “index case” to describe Dr. Sears’ patient. (He seemed to confuse “index case” which is the proper terminology for the case that starts an outbreak of a disease such as measles in a non-endemic measles area, with the phrase “zero case” which is the proper terminology for a newly identified communicable disease i.e., AIDS).

Offal has not read the complete Ho-Po article and how I and other posters got Dr. Sears to admit that the “index case” was a deliberately unimmunized child, who was, in fact Dr. Sears’ patient. Nor has Offal read the completed investigation of the San Diego measles outbreak:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm57e222a1.htm

Offal is still supporting his own fantasy (and is in total denial), about the measles outbreak caused by one of Dr. Sears’ patients…and the patients’ two siblings.

Offal needs to “get some help.”

Kelly, speaking of stupid, on today’s measles thread you said it kills 800,000 each year today. Here’s what the CDC says:

Worldwide, there are estimated to be 20 million cases and 164,000 deaths each year. More than half of the deaths occur in India. For more information on measles in the United States and worldwide, visit the Global Elimination page.

Who’s stupid now?

Baglady , if you just hit random keys on your computer the results would make more sense than what you usually post. Besides what are you doing up 3:30 am. I am starting to worry about you.

OK Sid, my citation says 800,000 yours 164,000. 164,000 does not bother you? None of these people have to die, but you seems to want 164,000 of them to. Stupid is not in the range of numbers, it is the deliberate contempt for the victims that you harbor.

My number was from 2000, yours from 2008. Gee, think of how many million people have died in those twelve years from 2000 to 2012. Hell if we include 1999 we have another 873,000. All of which are preventable. Who is stupid? You!

@Kelly- These are the facts:
Accordind to WHO:
7.6 million children under the age of five die every year, according to 2010 figures.
Over two-thirds of these early child deaths are due to conditions that could be prevented or treated with access to simple, affordable interventions.
Leading causes of death in under-five children are pneumonia, diarrhoea, malaria and health problems during the first month of life.
Over one third of all child deaths are linked to malnutrition.
Children in low-income countries are nearly 18 times more likely to die before the age of five than children in high-income countries.
h_ttp://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs178/en/index.html

Just (trying to) keep you honest Offal. Thanks for your concern about my well-being…and for the opportunity to post about your inanities.

How’s your radio career coming along…any offers…since you made a fool of yourself on British radio while talking about chicken pox parties, sending chicken pox lollipops through the mail and debating a real physician/college professor about immunology?

Let us know when you publish again on AoA…we always welcome the opportunity to point fingers at you and laugh.

The Rotavirus vaccine has saved many children. I wonder how many more could be saved with better vaccine coverage?

Thanks anon for the link to the WHO measles factsheet(s)

Did you see this one?

http://www.who.int/immunization/newsroom/measles/en/index.html

Measles mortality reduction: a successful initiative
WHO/H.Hasan

Measles deaths worldwide fell by 78% between 2000 and 2008, from an estimated 733 000 in 2000 to 164 000 in 2008. In addition, all regions with the exception of one, have achieved the United Nations goal of reducing measles mortality by 90% from 2000 to 2010, two years ahead of target. Vaccinating nearly 700 million children against measles, through large-scale immunization campaigns and increased routine immunization coverage, has prevented an estimated 4.3 million measles deaths in less than a decade.

The numbers of lives saved by the Measles and Rotavirus vaccines is amazing. In ten years millions of lives have been saved. The fact we have to fight to implement these life saving measures makes me wonder about our collective sanity.

@ Kelly: It is truly amazing. And, it totally knocks down any *lingering doubts* about public health immunization initiatives to protect our own kids…and kids everywhere..from deadly childhood diseases.

I can’t imagine losing one of my precious children, the thought is too horrible. Think of all the joy that those saved children are bringing to their families and the world!

@Robert – so 164,000 deaths is okay by you, probably because they are Indian children & not American…..so, how does the math work for you here – 164,000 non-American deats = how many dead Americans for you to actually care?

I would love to see that number – but no like we’ll ever see it from you.

Oh, and BTW – back to the other topic, please articulate with “untenable” positions you believe both the anti & pro-vaccine camps “clinge” to, since you were kind enough to admit that, in your mind, they exist on both sides…..

Are Th1 and Th2 levels supposed to be higher than normal or lower than normal for autistic people?

Chris,

I’m stuck in the lab this morning with only the iPad to communicate with the world, but I’ll try to find the Mexican health regulations on vaccines. I know they are stringent. I lived there until I was ten and then across the river in El Paso until I was 21. I visit every year and have plenty of friends and family there.

In other words, I’ll find what you’re requesting and post here, but give me some time.

Thank you, Ren. I can be patient, as I am trying to read 1493 this weekend. I just finished the chapter “Evil Air”, which is about the devastation caused by mosquito vectored diseases like malaria and yellow fever.

By the way, I have been vaccinated for yellow fever twice in my life. In one of the countries I lived in there were some cases of yellow fever and we were then required to carry our immunization record with if we went into the interior.

Besides what are you doing up 3:30 am. I am starting to worry about you.

He says seven minutes later, while fat-fingering his own name. That’s a zinger, Sid, a zinger.

Ah, right, I now recall that Sid’s in California. I shall thus revise the position to request the official Libertarian timetable of acceptable times to be awake.

baglady, you mean the interview in which I made mincemeat out of Dr. William Schaffner, President, National Foundation for Infectious Diseases? I heard he was actually in danger of losing his position after his poor performance debating me.

Sorry, Narad. Didn’t see your other comment

Lawrence:

please articulate with “untenable” positions you believe both the anti & pro-vaccine camps “clinge” to, since you were kind enough to admit that, in your mind, they exist on both sides…..

Here’s two from the so-called “antivax” camp”

Vaccines don’t work

Incidence of certain VPDs were falling without vaccines. For example I agree vaccines caused the decline in measles incidence.
———

As to the pro-vaccine camp the cleanliness theory of polio was the topic of conversation.

Sid, I doubt you could make mincemeat of anyone’s position. You’ve been caught out here repeatedly and done over. I’d like to see a link to a neutral assessment of your claim to have debated William Schaffner and embarrassed him so badly that he was nearly forced to quit.

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