Miracle Mineral Solution (MMS) and autism at Autism One: Kerri Rivera’s apologists strike back

If you want to see how crazy some MMS fans are, just look at reviews of Jim Humble’s books and videos are on places like Amazon and YouTube. It’s all extreme paranoia about “big pharma” coupled with a general lack of critical thinking and anecdotes galore. I think it would be fun to bait these people.

Holy-moley – they have a problem with the “toxins” in vaccines, but are just fine with giving their kids bleach directly injected into the bloodstream?

What kind of bath crystals are these people on?

I guess I don’t understand the assertion that MMS isn’t bleach. That’s pretty basic chemistry.

PS: love the brainless bear (?)

The use is Inexcusable and indefensible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_dioxide

http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm220747.htm

http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary/summary.cgi?cid=24870&loc=ec_rcs

On her Facebook page, Alison MacNeil is promoting the pro-MMS petition on change.org. You may remember her – she’s the daughter of Robert MacNeil, the famous journalist, whom she persuaded to make “An embarrassing, reckless, and irresponsible coda to Robert MacNeil’s career”.

http://sethmnookin.com/2011/04/18/an-embarrassing-reckless-and-irresponsible-coda-to-robert-macneils-career/

Not only does she want her friends to sign the petition, she also posted a picture of a T-shirt that was emblazoned with: “Enema MacNeil”, with the caption “hey ARI? I’m with Kerri”. It seems she wore this while attending Autism One.

It seems safe to assume that Robert MacNeil’s son is being subjected to bleach enemas.

It struck me as really odd that something most people at the conference didn’t even know much about had already been completely scrutinized

Because MMS is not new. Ask Rhys Martin, who wrote about it in 2010.

bleach enemas

a “72-2″ protocol that involves making children drink dilute bleach every two hours for 72 hours.

MMS, a treatment being used for gut problems in some children

With so much bleach attacking your children’s gut flora (not to mention irritating the intestine itself), if they don’t have gut problems at first, they will after the treatment.

Are they trying to prove Wakefield right by creating a bunch of autisitic children with guts issues?

Following on from DLCs comments

Bleach = sodium hypochlorite solution (NaOCl) which would be a “nasty chemical” if In a vaccine. Is a lot less than natural then formaldehyde (I am not aware of any natural sources) and is made in chemical plants by big nasty chemical companies. Maybe the Autisim groups are In the pay of “big Chemical”.

Bleach is also a powerful oxidant which presumably is bad as antioxidants are good.

Take a look at some of the links on Macneil’s Facebook page.Autism recovery with homeopathy is one.

OT- but I think that it fits in extremely well

Over @ Quackwatch**, I just learned that legal action based on Gary Null’s infamously bad batch of supplemental powders, ( covered by Orac in April, 2010) that sickened him and several customers, has been partially resolved : 2 of the 6 who were hospitalised settled their suits for undisclosed amounts BUT a fellow representting his mother, who died, continues on behalf of her estate.

Remember this is the dude who writes about how SBM is killing people by the hundreds of thousands.
If you google his name, Barrett’s article is amongst the first few hits. Guess that’s why he switched his main activites over to a crock called PRN.

** last paragraph of Barrett’s article on the quack; Dr B links to the suits.

Oh my goodness! An amigurami critter with removable brain! Am I weird that I find it adorable and hilarious at the same time?

That anyone would be suckered by MMS is depressing, but hey, go back a hundred years and folks were paying big bucks to have (presumed) billy goat testicles implanted in their abdomens. Or look at the trial of the “lady” down in Florida who was caught giving cheap buttock enhancement procedures that basically consisted of injecting caulk into people’s backsides. (Yes, with a caulk gun.) There really is a sucker born every minute.

I think the people who do this to their kids do actually love their children. It’s hard to understand, but consider this: a great many abusers love their children too, even though they hit them. It’s much more complicated than “love = do good things to the people you love”. You’d *think* it would be that simple, but these are people we’re talking about, and people are anything but simple. Abusers usually aren’t fully aware of how badly they’re treating their children; they’re in denial. And people who overmedicate their children (whether with approved drugs or not) are also often so far down the rabbit hole they aren’t looking at the situation dispassionately; they become so focused on the cure and chasing a possible future that they don’t notice the present. Of course, it’s hard to be dispassionate anyway when it’s your kids we’re talking about. I can definitely see how some might think any treatment is worth trying.

Yeah… ‘we don’t want no stinkin’ aluminum or mercury in our kids!’

“Bleach and Ionic silver? Those are GREAT!”

I don’t get it. I just don’t. Their ignorance is truly staggering. The whole ‘if it isn’t BIG PHARMA it must be GOOD” idea is just grotesque.

Colloidal silver is my pet peeve. Sure – let’s give our special snowflakes ionic silver, which is toxic to pretty much every organism out there – and even better, it’s nano silver!

Particles small enough to pass through the cell membrane by diffusion alone (and the blood brain barrier) – along with being taken up by the Na+ pumps into the cell.

/headdesk

@ Calli Arcale: While it is true that convicted child batterers and child murderers all *claim* to love their children, they are violent pugnacious individuals who work out their aggressions on their children. The end result is that their children are irreparably harmed emotionally and physically and…just as dead… as if the sicko pervert around the corner used these children to satisfy his/her sadistic appetite.

These parents are similar to the religious zealots who believe their child is possessed and subject their children to rituals to cast out the demons. Here the demons are parasites, fungi, bacteria and other pathogens and heavy metals and vaccines that need to be *treated*. They are looking for the easy fix, rather than devoting their time and energies to help their kids. They are consumed with anger at their *situation* and view their children as being dirty infested beings. They experiment with their children behind closed doors and deliberately hide their *treatments* from other family members. They know damn well that society views their *treatments* as child abuse and when they are *caught* by Child Protective Services, they claim to love their child.

Why does AoA defend the actions of the disgraced Wakefield and the Geiers? Why are these child-abusing characters giving a platform at Autism One and why are the groupies providing financial support to Wakefield. The answer is simple, their judgement is warped and their moral compasses and their parenting skill are non-existent.

I’ve often been accused of being a bleeding heart liberal because I believe that many people who are caught up in the criminal justice system can be rehabilitated, if given a chance. My compassion does not extend to child abusers.

@ Mrs Woo:

EVEN if the alt med treatments DO contribute to their demises, who can ever prove a link in a court of law? That would be a difficult task. See my comment above about Dr Barrett.

IMO it is of no importance whether parents giving their children “bleach therapy” love them or not.

What is important is that they are giving their children “bleach therapy”.

“To think, I’m skipping violin practice to not disturb him listening to it…?”

Mrs Woo, you should be practicing your violin. Please don’t tell me that you have the talent of Midori, though 🙂

according to Alex Jones, the NWO has rules that include telling us their plans but in ways that make them seem unbelievable

My understanding of this was that the Masons have a duty to reveal their intentions but are allowed to do so cryptically. Minor difference.

That bunny is both cute and terrifying.

MMS has been touted to cure Lyme disease too. Which only makes sense because Lyme causes autism, of course. 🙁

If you have convinced yourself that autism is a fate worse than death, then I can certainly see parents believing that trying MMS is better than the alternative. I don’t believe, other than in highly unusual situations, that these parents are intentionally malicious. Hopelessly misguided, perhaps, but not evil.

lilady, I think you missed my point. What abusers do to their children is absolutely wrong, and certainly damages the children. Sometimes they even kill their children. But we should not make the mistake of assuming that they are all lying when they say they love their children. Nor should we assume all abusers have the same motivations for what they do.

The ones who are taking out their anger on a convenient target — many of those probably do genuinely love their children, which makes the situation all the more tragic. It would probably be easier if the parents were just assholes, honestly. Love makes it worse, then. A parent who is unfit to parent can be blinded by their love for their children and refuse to be separated from them. We idolize those who do the right thing, and rightly so, because it is better to give up your children out of love because you recognize they are better off without you. But love makes it harder, because it hurts more to lose them. Addicts, philanderers, people with anger management issues . . . . They often mean well. They just don’t *do* well. And the hell of it is, sometimes they realize just what a horror they’re putting their families through. Some will use that as a moment of clarity, and break the cycle; others will simply spiral further down in response.

With people who subject their children to woo….

They are spending huge amounts of money, many of them. They honestly believe this is what is good for their children, that there is some hope. If they didn’t love the children, why wouldn’t they just abandon them? I can’t make sense of their actions except as Munchausen’s by Proxy or by a deep and potent love that has blinded the parent and made them far too eager to grasp at offers of hope. I’ve seen that happen. I am sure that most, and quite possibly all, of these people on AoA and other sites do love their children.

Love can be abusive, though. To assume that an abuser doesn’t love is to gravely underestimate the extent of abuse, and overestimate the power of love. Love, without reason, can lead to quite horrifying outcomes. In Camaroon, some women iron their daughters’ chests in hopes of reducing the size of their breasts. It doesn’t work, but they do it anyway, because they love their daughters. They think that making them less attractive will reduce their risk of being raped. That doesn’t work either, of course, but they keep trying, and the results can be as agonizingly horrific as any burn can be.

Freud wrote about ‘secondary gain’ wherein a person who is ill uses that condtion to his or her advantage -perhaps to “make-up” for other losses experienced- so, we might call this “secondary gain by proxy”.

The AoA people talk about autism as the New Epidemic, not noticing that the *real* epidemic is of Munchausen-by-Proxy.

If superglue is involved, it’s Munchausen-by-Epoxy.

This bleach thing really, really makes me think of all the old tales about changelings. You surely know the folk tale – if your child starts to behave strangely, cries all the time, makes faces, looks disfigured – it’s not your child anymore, your child has been taken by elves and what is in the crib, is their changeling. So what you do? Start beating the changeling until its mother comes to save it and brings your own child in return.

I’ve always felt that AJW’s project sounded like MBP: inventing an illness where there was none,
subjecting children in his charge to unnecessary tests, getting attention from the process…

but I can’t say that because we should never diagnosis anyone over the ‘net….
doens’t mean that our minds will not go where the situation leads them..

@ Calli Arcale: And, I think you missed my point. Let me rephrase some of my prior statements, for clarity.

The love that you describe as being well-meaning and misinterpreted, is a sick love. Even the most intellectually impaired child will recoil from oral doses of industrial strength chemicals because of the memory of prior doses that caused that child to puke. The parents who shove catheters up their kids rectums to instill caustic enemas see the fear on their child’s face, the tears welling up and see their child writhing in pain as they are dealing with agonizing bowel cramps. Their feces, after repeated bowel cleansings are not formed; they are watery and acidic and they excoriate the delicate rectal tissue. Yet, the parents still persist with the ritual purgings.

“With people who subject their children to woo….

They are spending huge amounts of money, many of them. They honestly believe this is what is good for their children, that there is some hope. If they didn’t love the children, why wouldn’t they just abandon them?”

Why would you equate the money that is spent on these “treatments” with parental love, Calli? They don’t “abandon them” because they would lose face in the community and within the group on websites. Having people who are unaware that you are abusing your child and who heap praises on you for caring for your child and being a “martyr” in your own perverse mind, fulfills a sick need for these abusers. They are powerful motivators to hang on to your child.

I might add Calli, that this subset of Munchausen-By-Proxy parents are slick. They do their “treatments” behind closed doors and back off their “treatments” before their children becomes so dehydrated or so anemic that they require hospitalization.

Please Calli, do not compare certain practices such as genital mutilation that takes place in Africa or breast “ironing”, which are being condemned by educated people in those same societies…and roundly condemned by everyone outside of those closed societies.

Years ago, in the Western World, certain ethnic groups had the xenophobic and dynasty-building practice of marrying off young virgins to older cousins. In China, they used to bind the feet of upper class young girls…to make them more desirable. Those practices have all been abandoned, because of our enlightened attitudes.

These abusing parents live in a society that does not abuse our kids, we don’t have a close male relative who “prepares” a young woman for marriage. We don’t…with the exception of certain cults…hand over 10 year old girls…to pleasure old men. We don’t countenance psychological, emotional or physical abuse by teachers or caregivers who we entrust our children with. Child abuse is child abuse, even if the abuser tries to hide behind the label of parent.

You are defending the indefensible, Calli.

@ Calli Arcade:

Don’t forget the “Ashley Treatment” for some severely disabled children — keeping them small and preventing puberty. And one of the reasons the parents have this done is to prevent sex abuse. It’s easy for me to talk, but I can’t get my mind around this, particulary the last reason! If someone is so sick as to rape a helpless person, “infantilizing” (if that’s the right word) the patient won’t stop it.

This is not even woo!

@ccs

The Ashley Treatment is a false dilemma regarding the potential for sexual abuse. Abusers abuse children (and other peoples) regardless of their size, puberty, mental capacity or even if they wore burka (no offense intended to burka). There is absolutely no correlation regarding sexual abuse potential and puberty or not puberty.

The other reason are entirely valid but the potential for sexual abuse in that case is bullshit.

Ugh! We need more science education in America!

by one of the nation’s leading University chemists

What? E. J. Corey was involved? Richard Heck? Barry Sharpless? That commenter wouldn’t know a “leading University chemist” if he met one.

Yeah, I know there’s that thing we call “Nobel disease” but Boyd Haley’s not on that list. And (no offense to intended to residents of KY or alumni and students) the University of Kentucky isn’t exactly a scientific mecca.

Calli Arcale, ScienceMom, and Lilady: re loving your children.

This is where I’d like to repost Kelly M Bray’s comment from May 16th, but I botched saving the link and can’t find the original comment (it has been reposted elsewhere; perhaps Kelly would be willing to repost it again on Just the Vax in the comments to Science Mom’s latest post). The comment resonated with me, and I’ve thought about it a lot.

To paraphrase: what would you change about your child? Nothing.

Myself, I’d like to get my children to modify some of their bad habits, but that’s about it. As I said, the comment resonated with me, and I’ve thought a lot about it. While my kids fall under the umbrella of “normal,” they aren’t exactly “typical” and it has not always been easy being their parent. But, like Kelly, I wouldn’t have it any other way.

David Brown @7:20

predictably neutralize stomach acid
We have medications like Prevacid and Zantac for that, with the added bonus that they don’t destroy the patients’ intestinal membranes.

I cringe when I read the comment from the mother who mistook slough off of from the damage done to her child’s intestine as a proof of dead parasites.

I’ve seen slough off: In my child’s case, the damage was done by dairy products – and you know what? I stopped giving them to her!

@css:

Uh, dude, parents and relatives abuse children all the time, and the abuse often happens in the home. I wouldn’t present institutionalization as though it automatically guarantees sexual abuse whereas home is safe and sound, because that’s demonstrably not true. I also think it does a pretty big disservice to non-parental carers by implying that they are all predators waiting to pounce.

Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to go be ill over in the corner. While I recognize that Ashley’s parents are in a difficult situation, every time I read their thoughts, I feel like they just didn’t want a woman’s body interfering with the illusion of their perpetual infant. I can’t verbalize well why it bugs me, aside from feeling like Ashley is viewed as a thing to be changed at will and not a person.

One application of DMSO in research settings is as a ‘vehicle’ to carry other drugs, chemicals, metals and allergens through the skin. We call this ‘painting’. The DMSO is mixed with the compound of interest and the mixture is brushed onto a small area of exposed skin…..and vuala!

This MMS story just keeps getting scarier.

I remembered where Kelly M Bray’s repost was:
http://autismjungle.wordpress.com/2012/05/18/two-comments-on-respectful-insolence-make-me-think/
Thank you, Julian

Meg, it is because when Richard Barr was looking for someone to provide “research” to support a lawsuit in the UK, the person he found willing to do fraud for cash was Andrew Wakefield. Since Wakefield was a gastroenterologist he tied it all to the “gut.”

lilady:
I am not defending the indefensible. You are misunderstanding me, apparently thinking I am defending child abuse. I AM NOT, and I am offended that you think so. I am well aware that child abuse is reprehensible. My point is that telling these people “you obviously don’t love your children” is a) wrong and b) counterproductive, because it’s a great way of making people defensive. You want them to hate you? Go ahead and tell them they hate their children; I can guarantee you it will only reinforce their views.

The world is not black and white, lilady, divided into good people and evil people, with good people incapable of evil acts. Quite the contrary. People are a mixture of both, and are fallible. They can be fooled, they can be deluded, and they can deceive even themselves without realizing they are doing it. And there is no greater evil than that which is done out of love. “It’s good for him. She’ll thank me when she’s grown. This is better than the alternative. We must beat the demon out.” (I met an exorcist once. Now *that* was a surreal experience. Luckily, not one which believed in beating the devil out, but still very very weird.)

My point is that telling these people “you obviously don’t love your children” is a) wrong and b) counterproductive, because it’s a great way of making people defensive. You want them to hate you? Go ahead and tell them they hate their children; I can guarantee you it will only reinforce their views.

Calli, these are people who are completely immune to reason, evidence, logic and humanity. They already hate “us”; we’re the enemy remember? We’re “pharma whores”, “shills” and “vaccine-pushers”. These are people who intentionally isolate themselves from criticism and dissent, people who initiate lawsuits against their critics, threaten people’s employment, threaten people’s safety and the safety of their children and who stalk their critics. This is not a nice and rational group of people. Education doesn’t work, compassion doesn’t work so what do you suggest? They need a wake-up call, if for nothing than yes, to put them on the defensive. Because their repugnant and defiant defence of abuse may prevent others from going down the same road.

Science Mom, it seems that most of the “MMS is not bleach” comments on several blogs are very similar. It reeks of sock puppetry.

Meg@10:00 GI disease does not cause autism.They are both part of any number of complex multisystemic syndromes,in which autism is only an obvious outward presentation.

This simple fact is something so few seem to be able to grasp.People on both sides of this issue.People who have neither lived with one of these diseases,or bothered to do any real research beyond blogs and news articles,only see autism as what is in the DSM,nothing more,nothing less.They are completely clueless.*

On the other hand,you have the antivax people who are so warped and twisted about the cause,so dedicated to their ideas,and like the religious cult they truly are,desperate for new converts. **

Frankly,I don’t know why researchers like Natowicz,Swedo,and Ramaekers bother to find these syndromes,and metabolic links.There are few of us on the spectrum,who will ever be tested.and the studies always get twisted,and misinterpreted,by the likes of AoA,to fit their agenda.I would argue this is on purpose.

Calli Arcle@10:45 pm

They hate us already.Antivaxers do see everything in black and white.

*And if Ari Ne’eman,and ASAN have their way,the basic criteria in the DSM will be further watered down,by allowing people who meet even less of the full criteria for ASD to be diagnosed.Thus further padding the numbers,and fueling more fear mongering about an “autism epidemic”.Feeding on one another,like a snake eating its tail.

**One more “gambit” the antivax people like to pull,is the “our kids are unique gambit”.This implies there were never any children born with autism,and complex medical issues,born before 1990 or so.

Meg, there was a claim by him that is was all connected.

There are papers that show intestinal issues are not unique to autism, and not in every autistic child. There could be a connection with the limited diet and behaviors in autism that could cause the intestinal issues. Kind of like my normally developing son refusing to eat certain foods caused his constipation.

@chemmomo 7:51,
I would have figured that there would be medications available for dealing with genuine excessive stomach acid. The issue of intestinal damage would certainly make a dedicated medication preferrable to a “basic chem” solution… though, I must say, losing a layer of lining WOULD take care of parasites, if they are really there. Not that that would help a great deal: Removing mature parasites from a patient doesn’t take care of the eggs or larvae in the environment, which can and probably will find their way in again sooner or later.

@Chris etc,
I suspect that there is a real association of autism, and more serious symptomologies within the spectrum, with GI issues mostly for one reason: Any GI problem is a source of stress, and that stress can and probably will contribute to autistic behaviors. If the problem can be treated medically, it should not be surprising if ASD symptomology improves.

Meg, the ‘gut disorders cause autism’ claim is part of the belief in Leaky Gut Syndrome. According to Wakefield, the MMR vaccine causes minute holes in the intestines which allow evil Toxic Proteins to escape into the bloodstream, head straight for the brain and mess up the neurons there.

Worms, you say? Autistic children are wormy? I have to wonder why a parent who believes her child has worms would not need to be de-wormed herself. After all, it’s clear the child and parent are exposed to the same environment and would both be subject to the same parasites.

As I have commented elsewhere, the parallels are surprisingly similar between this behaviour by parents of autistic kids and the way in which certain churches “brought up” the kids under their charge.

Mental and physical indignities, punishments and purgations, all in the name of Christ and all done with “love” and a clear conscience because it would create a better, purer end product. The end justifies the means.

Many of the “good intentioned” perpetrators of this abuse have had to finally recant and the church has had to make reparation for the awful acts commited in its name.

Would be that people realise that some of these autism cures are tantamount to the same thing, and that the perpetrators are of the same mind set and need to be exposed for what they are.

I don’t mean to sound like a fascist, but I don’t understand how anyone could really consider a human with basically no higher brain activity to be a “person,” other than in the broadest legal sense. That seems just a little too close to those “fetal personhood” bills to me, frankly, or like saying Terri Schiavo was alive in any meaningful sense. Human, yes, but a person? You must think of personhood very differently than I do, I guess, because it just seems to me that there’s no there there.

I worry about Ashley Whoever’s parents too, but probably for a completely different reason than you do.

I got all Science Mom on her behind

Heh, you certainly did. These parents are monsters.

@ Chris, sadly I don’t think these are sock puppets with the exception of the one who commented on my blog and “Autumn” who commented on Autismum’s blog. This one thinks that “our immune systems” produce chlorine dioxide so MMS is good for us. These mental contortions are excruciating for me to watch.

@ Dawry, oh don’t worry, I corrected her statements, for all the good it will do for someone intent on “fixing” her child.

lilady, et al,

The people we see ranting and raving about the evils of vaccination are lost to reason. We probably have no real chance of reaching them. But when we speak to them on the Internet, we are heard by more than just them. We are heard by the lurkers. For every one person who pontificates about the wonders of and who rants and raves about the horrible evil skeptics, there are probably dozens listening. They are the ones you don’t want to put on the defensive. It doesn’t matter what you do — you cannot reach the ranters. But you *can* reach the people who have gone to them for advice.

Besides which, you’re “othering” them. While this has a long and venerable tradition, it doesn’t get you any closer to understanding why people fall into woo, which means it also doesn’t get you any closer to *preventing* more people from falling into woo. Yes, it does allow for a nice cathartic rant, but if a nice cathartic rant is all you’re after, maybe we’ve got different objectives here.

And yes, the ranters hate us. Is that any excuse for us to do the same to them? If it’s so wrong, why should we do it too? What is the *point*?

Actually, as I pointed earlier on this thread, our white cells do produce hypochlorite to destroy the organisms they phagocyted. But funny enough, our white cells are careful not to release it outside of their phagolyzosome.

Yes but let’s not let that inconvenient fact get in the way of bleaching their kids. They also ignore the health detriments of high blood levels of myeloperoxidase when that does happen. The whole antioxidants are beneficial thing seems to have escaped them.

I didn’t see anyone else mention this regarding the petition by Emily Willingham and the counter petition Jim Humble. While Emily Willingham’ petition has a reasonable goal of 2500 signatures, I notice that Jim Humble has the lofty (and seriously out of touch) goal of a million signatures. The hubris of that figure is astounding.

… which makes the current 45 signatures (which has not changed since I last looked yesterday) look a bit pathetic.

like the clap

The Clap is a rousing acoustic guitar solo by Steve Howe that shows amazing virtuosity, and yes I do like it.

Oh, you must mean the venereal disease. Never mind.

@Calli Arcale –

*claps hands quietly*

Nicely done.
– pD

@Chris –

Oh wow, I completely forgot about Wakefield inventing “Leaky Gut Syndrome.” It got lost in all of his other fabrications.

Alterations of the intestinal barrier in patients with autism spectrum disorders and in their first-degree relatives.

A high percentage of abnormal IPT values were found among patients with autism (36.7%) and their relatives (21.2%) compared with normal subjects (4.8%). Patients with autism on a reported gluten-casein-free diet had significantly lower IPT values compared with those who were on an unrestricted diet and controls. Gastrointestinal symptoms were present in 46.7% of children with autism: constipation (45.5%), diarrhoea (34.1%), and others (alternating diarrhoea/constipation, abdominal pain, etc: 15.9%). FC was elevated in 24.4% of patients with autism and in 11.6% of their relatives; it was not, however, correlated with abnormal IPT value

Note: This study contained more patients with autism than all other tests of permiability combined.

Food for thought.

– pD

Chris,

I completely forgot about Wakefield inventing “Leaky Gut Syndrome.”

I don’t think he invented it, I pretty sure he plugged into an existing set of beliefs.

BTW though sodium chlorite and chlorine dioxide do kill pathogens, they do so at a concentration that it is toxic to humans. Here are some ballpark calculations I have posted here before that are perhaps worth repeating:

I calculate that the minimum dose of MMS required to achieve blood concentrations of chlorine dioxide required to kill any pathogens is going to be a toxic, close to lethal dose.

Since MMS is 28% sodium chlorite that’s 28 grams in 100 ml
0.28 grams or 280 milligrams in 1 ml
There are about 28 drops in 1 ml
So 1 drop contains about 10 mg sodium chlorite

Assume a blood volume of 5 litres and that all the sodium chlorite ends up converted to chlorine dioxide and dissolved in the blood (in fact only a small percentage is likely to end up in the blood)
1 drop of MMS, or 10 mg sodium chlorite diluted in 5 liters
2 mg per litre
0.002 grams per litre
0.0002 grams per 100 ml
Which is a 0.0002% solution
15 drops (the recommended dose that should be built up to) dissolved in 5 liters of blood would be a 0.003% or 30 mg/l solution (a little lower than that when converted to chlorine dioxide, and a lot lower when you consider that not all will be absorbed, but I’ll ignore that).

What concentration of chlorine dioxide is required to kill Staphylococcus aureus, for example?

http://iadr.confex.com/iadr/2008Toronto/techprogram/abstract_105534.htm
“In MIC test the lowest MIC value of chlorine dioxide gel (0.02% w/v) was obtained for S. aureus, S. mitis and S. constellatus. The other bacteria and pool samples of dental biofilm indicated slightly higher MIC values (0.2% w/v)” MIC = minimum inhibitory concentration

So if you ingested 15 drops of MMS, assuming that all of it was converted into chlorine dioxide and absorbed into the bloodstream, the concentration would be at least 10 times and more likely 100 times too low to inhibit (not kill) Staphylococcus aureus.

LD50 in rats is 165 mg/kg, so assuming humans react similarly (rats tend to be more resistant to toxins than humans), the lethal dose in a 70 kg human, would be about 12,000 mg, or 12 grams, which is about 80 times the recommended dose of 150 mg (15 drops at 10mg per drop). A suicide attempt in which 10g of sodium chlorite (NaClO2) taken orally caused refractory methemoglobinemia and nearly fatal kidney failure has been recorded.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8290712

So the minimum amount of MMS required to achieve a blood concentration high enough to kill S. aureus is dangerously close to the lethal dose. In practice, as not all the sodium chlorite will be converted to chlorine dioxide, and not all the chlorine dioxide will be absorbed, the blood concentrations achievable with the prescribed 15 drops are likely to be much lower than I calculated. I can’t see any way that MMS can kill blood borne pathogens at a dose that would not make a person very ill or even kill them.

Compare that to ciprofloxacin (chosen as it is a favorite bete noire in CAM circles) which has a MIC for S. aureus of less than 4 μg/ml = 4 mg/l
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC89096/
Assuming a dose of 500 mg and a blood volume of 5 liters, that gives a blood concentration of about 100 mg/l which is 25 times higher than the MIC for S. aureus (again in practice not all will be absorbed or be bioavailable, but this is only a rough estimate).

Ciprofloxacin is also far less toxic than MMS. LD50 for MMS in rats is 165 mg/kg, LD50 for ciprofloxacin in mice and rats is in excess of 5000 mg/kg. Assuming humans are equally susceptible a lethal dose of MMS in a 70 kg human would be 12 grams, a lethal dose of ciprofloxacin greater than 350 grams.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8290712
http://www.alcon.ca/pdf/Product_pharma/Product_pharma_ciprodex_eng.pdf

“But when we speak to them on the Internet, we are heard by more than just them. We are heard by the lurkers. For every one person who pontificates about the wonders of and who rants and raves about the horrible evil skeptics, there are probably dozens listening. They are the ones you don’t want to put on the defensive. It doesn’t matter what you do — you cannot reach the ranters. But you *can* reach the people who have gone to them for advice.”

Precisely Calli…Of course the abusers are “unreachable” and I do realize that there are plenty of “lurkers” including the groupies at AoA (They have publicly pilloried me a number of times).

I would hope that some of the fence-sitters, who include the “enablers” (spouses, close friends and neighbors), would be taking positive steps to stop the abusing parents.

Dozens of science bloggers have described the properties of MMS and the banning of the chemical, when used for treatment of any human disease or disorder, by the FDA, Canada and the European Europe. Few have come out strongly against the abusing parents. The abusing parents “are not misunderstood”, “they do not have their children’s welfare as a priority” and they are not “good people who are capable of doing evil acts”…they are abusers…every bit as abusive as the pervert down the block who feeds a child poison and jams a catheter into their rectum to give a child a toxic enema.

I also posted in exquisite detail the awful pain, the cramping, the damage to delicate tissue and the abject fear that a child feels when subjected to these ritualistic repeated purgings, with the hope that anyone contemplating MMS treatments for any disorder, will reconsider. I have some “credentials” to post this information, as the parent of multiple handicapped and medically fragile child who underwent many medically-indicated, sometimes painful, diagnostic tests and procedures…and as a registered nurse.

Calli, stop lecturing me, stop labeling my posts as “rants” and stop assuming that I do not understand what motivates these abusers. We have differing opinions about what constitutes parental abuse.

@Andreas Johansson: the reason bleach isn’t a pharmaceutical is because it is toxic to humans and doesn’t have proven benefits that outweigh its side effects.

@Julian Frost: I don’t think it works that way. Frex, drugs that get withdrawn due to unexpected side-effects are still considered pharmaceuticals aren’t they?

@Beamup: That’s little more than a restatement of my question (if Evul Farma Shilz were advocating it, Evul Farma and its minions in the medical profession would soon enough be hawking it).

Put another way, is there a way of dividing biologically active chemicals into pharmaceuticals and nonpharmaceuticals other than whether the medical establishment is in favour of its medicinal use? (Well, besides nonpharmaceuticals = what I like, pharmaceuticals = what you like, you moneygrubbing pharma shill scum, which I sort of suspect is the distinction Obradovic uses.)

@Andreas

There is no peer reviewed research indicating that bleach is in any way a compound which serves a pharmaceutical purpose, as the MMS fans claim.

Furthermore, with ‘homemade’ MMS being promoted, you’re running the risk of impurities and other toxic by-products forming in your solution.

Ingesting bleach or administering it via an enema is simply stupid. It is damaging to tissues, it is damaging to the liver and kidneys.

The potential for death is high – if the concentration is calculated wrong, you’re looking at a very painful poisoning.

@Darwy:

Swallowing a kilogram of ibuprofen is also stupid, yet ibuprofen is a pharmaceutical.

It seems to me the only reason ibuprofen is a pharmaceutical and MMS isn’t is that the former has legitimate uses as a drug and the later does not. This would obviously render Obradovic’s complaint nonsensical – she’d essentially be saying “you only use stuff that works, you bastards”, which might be the implication of her statement but hardly what she means to say. So I’m asking if there’s some reasonable sense (as opposed as a situational one made up by Obradovic) in which MMS still wouldn’t be a pharmaceutical if it worked and was legitimately prescribed (as Obradovic thinks it should).

I don’t see that lilady’s links answers this in the affirmative. They define disinfectant and antiseptic in terms of what they’re used for, with would go nicely with an operational definition of “pharmaceutical”, roughly = drug prescribed by mainstream medicine.

@Andreas

A kg of ibuprofen is lethal. A very painful death, as well.

Pharmaceuticals are researched and tested, in vitro and in vivo. We can anticipate possible side effects of pharmaceuticals in this manner (along with comparing them to comparable compounds) It’s also true that we cannot predict every drug interaction possible.

That’s why we have monitoring – drugs that are known to have side effects (liver failure, for example) are prescribed sparingly or avoided in favor of another type of drug, which performs the same way, but not as damaging.

Diclofenac is one such drug. It’s a wonderful NSAID, but it can cause liver damage. So, you don’t prescribe it for folks who have impaired liver function, etc.

MMS has no such ‘safety net’ to fall back upon. It is not regulated – you can find ‘homemade MMS’ recipes on the internet – which means those individuals mixing their own run the risk of toxic impurities (chlorite) in their MMS.

There is simply no reason to damage your child’s GI tract with a bleach product (and it is a bleach product) which will give no benefit to the child. It’s abuse, plain and simple.

lilady,

You mean you haven’t been banned from AoA?

Clearly you aren’t trying hard enough.

Re:Mephistopheles O’Brien@12:47 pm

“Disco Jesus” from “Catch The Clap” is better.

Dance dance dance Disco Jesus.
You ought to see him do the hustle,
Up there on that funky cross.

@Darwy: I don’t have any children, and if I did I’d rather swallow that kilogram of ibuprofen than “treat” them with bleach enemas. I do not understand why you seem to think I need to be told that torturing children is a bad idea or that bleach is bleach.

What I’m questioning is Obradovic (who does think torturing children is a good idea) ‘s “anything other than pharmaceuticals” line.

@Beamup: Thank you.

@Andreas

I was using ‘you’ in the ‘general’ sense, and not referring to YOU specifically.

Det er ligesom at bruge ordet ‘man’ i stedet for ‘du/dig’ men der findes kun ‘you’ på engelsk, med mindre man bruger ‘one’ som er lidt gammeldags.

@Darwy: Ah, okay. I’ll point out though that it’s very easy to assume something is directed specifically at you when it starts with @[your name]!

(Yes, I realize the irony of the general “you” above.)

Lilady,
There’s a link to the MSDS for ibuprofen on this page. Mind you, it’s for the pure stuff. http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/sigma/i4883?lang=en&region=US

Humble seems to have overestimated the number of MMS fans willing to put their money where their mouths are. On his “Genesis II-Church of Health and Healing” (gag) he’s begging for money to build a war chest for the legal fight against the FDA. The response, as he reports himself, has been less than enthusiastic.

Over a week ago I sent out an urgent plea to donate to the MMS Defense fund. This fund has been set up to fight the FDA and their attempts to make criminals out of people involved with MMS.

To date, the fund has received roughly $10,000.00 in donations. It isn’t nearly enough.

The fund needs close to $2 million to turn this fight into an all-out war against the FDA and what they are attempting to do to our health choices and MMS.

We don’t have months to play around with this,
it has to be now.

Of the 175,000 people I sent the alert out to, 200 donated. First, thank you. Now, the rest of you, if you would give just $10.00 each, we would hit our mark and the FDA would tremble.

If we don’t succeed in achieving this goal, all could be lost. In the end, “we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.”

Don’t let your inaction allow the FDA to take away our personal health freedoms or MMS. Take a stand and give today. Tomorrow may be too late.

Denice, just FYI the gut really does have a well developed intrinsic nervous system. It’s frequently mentioned in GI physiology circles as having as many neurons as the spinal cord.

Of course, the last thing that those sensitive little neurons would like is a bleach bath…

Liz Ditz

Grey ops do you think?!

Thanks to Science Mom for sharing that amazing e-mail with us.

“Amanzo, mother of Liam (3)June 11, 2012 9:03 PM

MMS is NOT bleach! If anyone would take the time to understand the chemistry behind the substance, you would have proper information to THEN evaluate.”

True, MMS (28% sodium chlorite in water) is not “bleach” (3 – 6% sodium hypochlorite in water); it is much worse. Chlorite is a more powerful oxidising agent than hypochlorite.

“Chlorine dioxide is SAFE in the ways we use it with children and people.”

If it is diluted to the point where it is safe to ingest (or use as an enema), then MMS (sodium chlorite) is too dilute to have an impact on bacteria, fungi, parasites, etc. On the other hand, if it is used in concentrations adequate to inhibit or kill pathogens, it is far too concentrated to ingest. What part of “not for internal use” don’t they get?

“It is a compound produced by our immune system.”

Yes, in very small quantities in a membrane-bound vesicle in cells that have shortened lifespans due to oxidative stress. This is not a reason to irrigate the gut with a sodium chlorite solution.

“I will help restore my child’s body to health – because I love him and want the best for his future.”

Good intentions are no shield against bad decisions.

“I believe in MMS and Kerri Rivera.”

“Believing” without understanding is one of the most common ways good people trick themselves into bad decisions.

I don’t doubt that “Amanzo” loves her child and wants him to get better – what I doubt are her choices.

Prometheus

@ Nashira

“I wouldn’t present institutionalization as though it automatically guarantees sexual abuse whereas home is safe and sound, because that’s demonstrably not true. I also think it does a pretty big disservice to non-parental carers by implying that they are all predators waiting to pounce.”

That would be a strawman argument, because I said none of those things. However, I do think that in an institutional environment as opposed to home care, disabled children would be exposed to a wider range of caretakers who have the potential to be abusive. I also think that the parents’ cared for their daughter in this case, and wanted to provide good care for her.

“While I recognize that Ashley’s parents are in a difficult situation, every time I read their thoughts, I feel like they just didn’t want a woman’s body interfering with the illusion of their perpetual infant.”

Regardless of how you feel, strong arguments can be made for each of the procedures as ways to increase Ashley’s quality of life in some way, not necessarily as a way of fulfilling some strange need of the parents. Also, why do you think that Ashley, an infant mentally, would be better served with an adult body?

@ Queen K.

“The argument can certainly be made in favor of sterilization of the child. Personally, I think it’s a slippery slope, but that’s just me. I can see why the parents would worry about a pregnancy.”

Pregnancy, menstruation, uterine cancer (higher risk from the estrogen therapy http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22244658)
It wasn’t all about sterilization and evil eugenics (slippery slope stuff).

“the parents have to protect their child from everyone who comes in the house.”

This is true. My question would then be, where do you think it is more likely that a child will be better protected, at home by their parents or in an institution?

Also, minor detail, the parents stated that the breast bud removal had a tertiary benefit of avoidance of sexualization of Ashley towards her caregivers. Not the therapy to halt growth. They never made a “small size as protection” argument that I saw. The lack of sexualization in itself seems to be a very small part of the reasoning for the overall procedure, and attempting to tear holes in it while ignoring the rest of the procedure seems to me, counterproductive.

One thing we know.

These parents are saving the household budget for more important things. They obviously don’t need to waste money on child safety locks for the cupboards holding all those dishwasher and other household cleaner items.

Save some money. Buy more bleach. Put it anywhere you like.

The CAS for Ibuprofen is 15687-27-1

It has an oral LD 50 (rat) of 636 mg/kg.

If you follow http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/united-states.html

and enter the CAS #, it should give you the option for the MSDS.

I could get a link to it, but it’ll be hellatiously long and ugly and I don’t know that it’ll actually come through the filter.

Unfortunately Mr. Hunt the math matters.

Your study http://www.vce.org/VT:ANR:DECPublicRecords/chlorinedioxideinman.pdf

Administered 5 mg/L. If my math doesn’t fail me, that’s a 0.5% solution

If you’re administering a 22.4% solution of MMS, that’s almost 49X stronger than what was used in that study.

The point of that study was to demonstrate that chlorine dioxide was suitable for use for water purification. It was not evaluated for theraputic uses or chronic toxicity.

If you can’t grasp the difference between a 0.5% solution and something 49 times stronger – make yourself a cup of coffee using instant coffee. One with 0.5 teaspoons of grounds and the other with 49. You might get the point.

I realize that MMS is much stronger, which is what I was attempting to say. I have just seen lot’s o’ math on mms dosage compared amount in drinking water to the point that my brain is in tilt mode. 🙂 Slide over to that Autism Wars link and educate them. I believe the Bishop Kerri herself is over there. Chlorine dioxide looks to dissipates with time in regular drinking water too which would seem to be an important factor compared to knocking back a fresh brew of ye old magic bleach.

Administered 5 mg/L. If my math doesn’t fail me, that’s a 0.5% solution
Actually, math failed you by 3 orders of magnitude. That’s a 0.0005% solution, 5 ppm.

@Darwy,
“A kg of ibuprofen is lethal.”
A kg (2 1/4 lb or thereabouts) of anything is lethal, if delivered to the head at significant velocities.

David N. Brown
Mesa, Arizona

So… maybe I’m a bit slow on the uptake I mean I’m more politically than biologically inclined but can someone point out to me where these ‘autism causing worms’ originate? Are they from the mothers during pregnancy? Are the mothers infested too and should we force feed them bleach drinks, baths and enemas? Are they in the air? Perhaps we should work something a bit more along the lines of prevention if so!!!!

Or perhaps… no… it couldnt be. THE ANTI-VAXERS WE’RE RIGHT!!! If vacines cause autism still its big pharma inserting these evil mind altering worms into the vacines so they can incubate in our children, and when they mature they assert control grouping up to head to a power station to feed on the electricity. Whereupon they will grow exponentially in size bursting out of the child! It’ll be like a bad gozzila movie: ‘Autzilla vs The Giant Pharma Worms!!!’

WE MUST STOP THEM!!!!

But yea lets have that please be nice to know what these worms are (like classification not just ‘worms’) and where they originate from. I mean if people are getting them flushing out their children with their ‘stay at home’ bleach kits then we must have had ample time to study them.

Fielding J Hurst:

Chlorine dioxide looks to dissipates with time in regular drinking water too which would seem to be an important factor compared to knocking back a fresh brew of ye old magic bleach.

I keep fish at home in a tank; if an aquarist doesn’t have access to enough distilled or deionized water to fill the tank, an acceptable substitute is usually to fill it with tap water and wait 24 hours for the chlorine to evaporate. Chlorine is rarely the only thing in there, of course, so you may need to various treatments for those. This is also something familiar to anybody who has a swimming pool; you don’t just add chlorine once. You have to add more on a regular basis, because it doesn’t stick around.

Those out there who defend the use of mms or use it on your disabled child, why don’t you show us who object to this practice how wrong we are? Why don’t you give yourself an mms enema, then tell us all how great an experience it was?

@ Composer 99: I never stated anything about the parental love angle…although I did comment that such *love*, that parents use an excuse to abuse their kids, is perverse and twisted. That type of *love* has caused parents to whup them into submission. That type of *love* blinds them to their children recoiling from another oral dose/another enema that causes cramping, puking and watery blood-filled bowel purges.

MMS *treatments* are actionable child abuse, committed by the very people who should be protective of their vulnerable children.

Todd Drezner at the Ho-Po has a blog up about MMS autism treatments. I have a post stuck in moderation there:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/todd-drezner/autism-cure_b_1588498.html

Go and post there, so that this *treatment* receives all the attention it deserves and, so that we might be a force to prevent other parents from inflecting abuse on their children.

@ Mary L

Therein sadly lies the crux of it. I imagine this would not have gone as far as it has (then again considering how at times it seems like we’re only just stopping nigh short of a death cult maybe I’m wrong) if it was the parents who were taking these treatments.

If an autistic child dies to it its a ‘tragedy’. But of course the parents were acting in their ‘best interest’ and they would have ‘suffered a terrible life themselves and inflicting misery on their family’ if they had continued to live.

I’m sorry to say it would take mass deaths to make these people even take a second glance at it. Sadly far more likely, especially with MMS, is highly debilitating future effects that won’t be blamed. Naturally because it didnt happen instantly. You know… vaccines cause the change INSTANTLY so it MUST be them!!! But poison the kids and they suffer thyroid problems a couple years later it can’t possibly be the parents fault no impossible.

I am sorry Narad – I listen to so much of it (while attempting to find anything else to pay attention to) that I might have misremembered, or even just lumped it all together in my head as “the terrible overlords who are set to profit from our annihilation, etc.” since it seems like with Alex Jones the groups kind of comingle by the time it’s all said and done.

On MMS orally – hubby did it as a “supplement” for around six weeks last year, I think. He got to a point, though, where instead of feeling progressively better he began feeling significantly worse and the enthusiasm waned. It was then shelved for “emergencies only.”

Now it’s “aronia juice.”

Now it’s “aronia juice.”

I’d enthusiastically sample the Lithuanian chokeberry wine.

whether parents subjecting their children to MMS really love them or not:

I am willing to believe that the parents at Jonestown really loved their children even as they force-fed them the poisoned Kool-aid.

@ James,
“can someone point out to me where these ‘autism causing worms’ originate?”

Parasitic worm infestations usually start with eggs or larvae ingested by a host. Historically, the major vectors were untreated drinking water and improperly prepared meat, but improved sanitation has long since minimized these risks. In a modern urban setting, the one vector left is human fecal matter. I understand this is particularly an issue for infants and young children, who can reinfect themselves repeatedly, and probably extends to anyone in the same household. Gee, and the “curebies” don’t seem to be saying ANYTHING about this…

David N. Brown

Mesa, Arizona

It takes a lot to freak me out…these MMS testimonials did just that:

http://www.healthsalon.org/487/parasite-cure-tapeworm-roundworms-mms-cures-parasites/

Maybe the users at this site and the abusers who stick enemas into their kids, are sniffing MMS and they are hallucinating about the worms.

Or, maybe they are just insane.

And also to note – quite clearly she did NOT have parasites.
http://www.natmedtalk.com/album.php?albumid=58

The displayed material is typical of an intestinal/colon cast and conforms to no known intestinal parasite.

Dingo – this sounds like the “cancer is fungus” nonseense in that it requires pathologists to be clueless bafoons who can’t recognize fungus or worms.

Todd Drezner’s blog on MMS treatment is still going strong:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/todd-drezner/autism-cure_b_1588498.html

I’ve replied to Ann Dachel and now a second time to Julie Obradovic who posted again to “explain” how she knew nothing of the treatment, continues to support the Quackfest, and (yet) felt that the science blogger was a big meanie.

There are no comments in support of MMS, many comments that condemn MMS and the parents who *treat* their children with bleach. Some on the comments also discuss the incestuous relationship between Generation Rescue, Autism One and AoA and their continued support of disgraced doctors, their quack treatments, AoA’s defamatory articles and other tactics.

The motility of the infective stages of intestinal parasites is interesting.

Tape worm shed segments known as “proglottids” which are motile. Often these can be seen wriggling out of your pet’s bum and are themselves mistaken for a worm, but they are just a small segment (maybe 2x5mm).

Strongyloides infection is by way of “free-living” motile rhabditiform larvae, rather than eggs. These larvae can live freely in the environment and move around a lot.

Just because there is one treatment that sounds crazy doesn’t suddenly make them all crazy. I happen to have a child with autism with whom the biomedical approach is doing wonders for. Do you have any idea what its like to have a child going through this? I think MMS has become the thing that people against biomedical have grabbed hold of and ran with. Biomedical is all about diet and nutrition, and not pumping chemical pharmaceuticals into our kids, something that the medical profession is not trained to help us in. No two children with autism are the same, so the key is keeping the knowledge flowing, and some trial and error, not snake oil. Changing foods, detoxing, giving vitamins and supplements or oxygen is not harmful, how do you figure? That’s good health. You should be so lucky as to be as well looked after as some of these kids! Biomedical is not “quackery”, these are expert medical doctors and scientists with years of experience in the field who created these protocols, and some children are recovering so well as to be taken off the autism spectrum all together! I would never give my child a bleach enema, who would? We obviously are trying to remove the toxins, not add more in. This topic is a feeding frenzy for the media, but truly, the bottom line is that we want to help our kids recover from physical issues associated with autism, to improve the quality of their lives, and its a low blow to blame parents for trying. Its such a shame its been blown out of proportion. Autism One is not to blame here, they help many many people. MMS is tied to a religious group, does that mean that anyone who believes in God also believes in bleach enemas now too? Do you see how silly that sounds?

@ Robyn:

“Changing foods, detoxing, giving vitamins and supplements or oxygen is not harmful, how do you figure? That’s good health.”

What “toxins” does your child have Robyn…that need to be removed? Which laboratory tests determined that your child was toxic? And, how did your child acquire these toxicities, Robyn?

http://oracknows.blogspot.com/2005/08/sadly-it-was-only-matter-of-time.html

You do not trust medical doctors to evaluate your child for nutritional status and you state that doctor pump pharmaceuticals into kids.

Which type of “practitioner” evaluated your child for nutritional status Robyn? How did your “practitioner” test your child for nutritional deficiencies and determine that your child needs a *special diet*.

Why does your child your need oxygen, Robyn? How are you administering the oxygen that your child needs…through nasal cannula, through an oxygen mask or by sessions in a hyperbolic oxygen chamber? Oh, and what theory/theorist do you rely on, for giving your child oxygen treatments?

“Autism One is not to blame here, they help many many people.”

I read the list of speakers who appeared at the conference and I say they harm many more people, than they help:

http://www.autismone.org/Keynote-Addresses-Autismone-Conference-2012

@robyn

Oh, and did you know that the court used the fraudulent research of mr. andrew wakefield in order to base its decision. A decision that has been criticized by most EU health organizations for using said fraudulent research in making the decision.

And why would a small court ruling outweigh numerous well-designed scientific studies with thousands of subjects that have shown no causation between the MMR vaccine and autism?

Children are being helped by biomedical treatment. Period. I can see with my own eyes that it is helping my child, I have evidence in front of me. You go ahead and give your child 30 vaccinations, drink your flouridated and chlorinated (bleach?) water, eat your GMO’s and junk food and pick up some pesticide laden fruit, but let the people who want to give their children a non toxic lifestyle do so in peace. I’m sorry I don’t have more time to debate this, I’m busy lovingly caring for, and healing my autistic child!

So a “non-toxic lifestyle” to people like Robyn includes, among other things, chemical castration, possibly deadly chelation and bleach treatments. Oh, let’s not forget fecal transplants. Plus force-feedingtheir kids dozens of supplements, vitamins and other dubious nutritional therapy.

To be fair to Robyn, she did say she would never do MMS or chelation. But she supports those options for other parents, which is just as bad as if she did them herself.

And her comparison of a chelation death to the deaths caused by the pharmaceutical companies is, of course, all together now, one big strawman. So what? One thing has nothing to do with the other, Robyn!

@Robyn: You were the one who first came posting here with some pretty nebulous “treatments” for your child…based on your blanket statement about medical doctors inadequacies.

I merely asked you some simple questions about the *practitioners* you use, the diagnoses given to you by these *practitioners*, the tests that determined your child’s nutritional deficits and the need to change your child’s diet, the need to detoxify your child and the need to give your child oxygen treatments.

Why, are you leaving, clutching your pearls…in a huff.

Why won’t you tell us what type tests were done on your child?

Do you rent your HBOT chamber or did you purchase it…because for some unfathomable reason you think your child needs oxygen therapy?

The case in Italy was decided several months ago and the “facts” concerning the onset of symptoms for that child are based on conflicting testimony about when the child received MMR vaccine (9 months of age or 15 months of age). The decision has been roundly criticized in science/legal communities in Europe and in the United States…because plaintiff’s success was based on the fraudulent Wakefield study.

“I’m sorry I don’t have more time to debate this, I’m busy lovingly caring for, and healing my autistic child!”

Let me FTFY Sharon…

I’ve been asked some questions which I cannot answer because I would reveal myself as a phony, science-illiterate
parent…who is busy caring for my child whom I experiment
on.

Robyn:

Yes, the child who died of chelation was given the wrong thing, which is obviously a tragic mistake, but the pharmaceutical industry kills people daily due to adverse reactions to medications.

The funny thing about that excuse was it was cooked up several weeks later. At that time what Kerry did, including which chelator to use, was being promoted by the bogus toxicology organization he and others (like Buttar) were in. They were promoting it for all kinds of ills, just like MMS is now.

And here is the killer bit about it all: Roy Kerry, who was an Ear, Nose and Throat doctor with absolutely no expertise in toxicology, pediatrics or autism, passed a course that took less than a day to because a DAN! doctor after the death of the little boy.

It is all part of the fractured, non-scientific thinking that is prevalent in the so-called biomed movement to cure autism.

Robyn,

If you’ll search through the blog, you’ll find that Orac is not in the habit of erasing posts he disagrees with. There have been posts go to moderation, which eventually get released – I don’t know if this continues today with the new platform. It is possible, I suppose, that a glitch lost your post in which case I hope you’ll try to recreate it.

Robyn,
You might get more success if you focus on providing evidence and arguments in favor of a particular set of treatments rather than a vague umbrella term such as “biomedical”.

I find it interesting you only provide a citation on your competitors, rather than your own medicine. Do you simply lack evidence, and have to rely on insulting others in the hopes you look better by comparison?

@ Dianne

There is a two-hour window of effectiveness during which pathogens are selectively targets.

How can a chemical decides to selectively target “pathogens”?

There is no difference between many pathogen bacteria and our commensal bacteria. Actually, some of our commensal bacteria can turn pathogen (they are that we call opportunistic pathogens).

Also, as someone who had to use bleach to decontaminate hsi hands, I can tell you that sodium hypochlorite doesn’t distinguish between my skin and the bacteria on it. It attacks both.

Thanks for the laughs Diane…you made my day. I found some additional *scientific* theories you have at the whale.to website:

http://www.whale.to/v/thompson.html

How’s your MMS sales franchise doing…now that your *cure* has been shown to be industrial bleach.

And look: Dianne Jacobs Thompson supports baby murderers and defends that scumbag who shook his baby to death, Alan Yurko. She deserves MMS:

http://legaljustice4john.com/

Your strategy reminds me of someone trying to deal with a burning building by pointing out that volcanoes are hotter. An interesting comparison, but utterly meaningless to the issue at hand.

from your link:

“The full implications of this primate study await publication of the research in a scientific journal,”

That was 4 years ago. Where’s the publication? Where’s the data? You can’t even read your own citation for detail…nowhere does it say that “every one of them had some level of autism symptoms.”

And Dianne, please read this as well, which was written by a good friend of our host here, Orac:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/monkey-business-in-autism-research/

In a nutshell, that study was bogus. AND it’s over four years old. AND it tortured poor little monkeys. At least they didn’t administer MMS enemas to the monkeys.

the naturopath cured my stomach cancer, ovarian cysts, low thyroid, chronic bronchitis, arthritis and heart condition in 5 weeks, and that was just the beginning.

Oh wow, we’ve got a live one here.
I just read her ‘vaccine injury’ story…hoo boy. One for the ages.

What a horrid woman…..

So all those broken bones were from vaccines?

No, those broken bones were from Yurko hitting the child, something he admits to doing (got that? He does not deny that he hit the child).

But oh, he would never resort to _shaking_ the baby. Oh no.

(As I have explained before, it’s really dumb, because as a parent, I actually have a far more understanding for shaken baby issues – the response is not really that extreme, and I can understand the mental state that leads to it; that’s why in parenting classes, we don’t vilify the feelings that lead to the problem, but teach the proper way to deal with them. Shaken baby happens because of lack of education. Hitting a 2 month old happens because the person is a monster. Sorry, but “I didn’t shake him, I only hit him” is NOT excusable, even if it is true (which I don’t believe for a second about this creep))

Actually after reading your defense of John Yurko it’s clear that any further discussion would be futile: you can’t fix crazy.

@dianne jacobs thompson

So, due to your support of a child murderer,. pretty much we can conclude that you are full of it.

At least your comments are good for the utter lulz, from all of the ignorance that that you spew.

Does anyone know if there has been an Alan Yurko type case in the UK recently? I have seen headlines hinting at something like this on the cover a particularly vile British magazine called Namaste (should be called Nasty) in Community Natural Foods in Calgary. There was something referring to child supposedly killed by the MMR vaccine and now in the most recent issue something about the child’s innocent father being in prison or prosecuted. I went to their website, (namastepublishing.co.uk) but although I found a heap of crazy (a lot of anti-EU, anti-vax etc), I could not find anything about it before I reached my limit of batshittery. Have any of the Brits here heard anything about this?

Some interesting debate going on and questions being raised here – particularly between Calli, ScienceMom and Lillady.
My own feeling is that Calli was not in any way *defending* or giving a ‘free pass’ to parents who abuse their children in this way and I can’t see how her comments were interpreted in this way.
As repugnant as their behaviour is, I believe most of these parents do love their children and sincerely believe that they are helping them. It is possible to love your child and still harm them grievously – the ability to love your child in itself says little about your worth as a parent.
I find myself agreeing with Calli – I don’t think it’s helpful or correct to think of AoA-type parents as evil, cold, unfeeling monsters.
(and as a pedantic side point, the issue was raised some years ago by Rhys Morgan not Rhys Martin!)

Thanks Kath. I didn’t think Callie was giving a free pass to biomeddler parents; I simply disagree that these parents truly love the child in front of them as opposed to being in love with the idea of the child they don’t have but ‘want back’. But yes, it’s pretty scary isn’t it? And I’m afraid that you may have only read a fraction of what these parents do to their children and sadly, are enabled and even encouraged by DAN! doctors and other ‘healthcare providers’.

Thanks, Kath. Yeah, that’s exactly what I was getting it. Also, parents aren’t the only ones who love someone without really knowing them, or loves who they wish the other person was. I’ve known a few abused spouses, and that sort of thing comes up. “I love you but you have to give up all of your friends, your family, and everything you’ve ever cared about or I won’t believe you love me.” It can get extremely twisted. That seems to be something society is comfortable admitting can happen; we seem to have a harder time accepting that it can also happen between a parent and a child, I think because we tend to glorify the parent/child relationship to dangerous extremes. Too many severely underprepared parents who are expecting love to work miracles and make it all fluffy toys and rainbows and not hard work. (Too many underprepared spouses not realizing that you have to work at a marriage too.)

Kath, Science Mom, Calli Arcale, lilady and others above, I believe we can all agree that Autism Mum and her family are awesome.

I am watching the garden transformation, which is being done to accommodate Pwdin and not to punish him. This is amazing. The only thing I can relate to that is similar is making sure the new couch did not have removable cushions that could be thrown around the room. Okay, I did have the one child who ate his older brother’s art supplies, which is why the big brother’s easel and paints were on the porch to keep little brother away (and it was big brother who had, and still has the semi-autistic developmental delays!).

I would never force any of those boys to consume MMS, nor force anything up their bums unless it was medically necessary (younger boy recently had a gastro bug that required a suppository to deal with the nausea so he could keep down fluids, but he is a normal college student so he could do that himself — his job involves teaching small children to swim so he does pick up some odd bugs).

Absolutely and well said, Chris.

Thanks, Calli Arcale.

It is when I hear the complaints of the parents of autistic children that I find those transgressions were not with my older disabled child, but with my younger boy. My oldest son’s terrible two’s lasted two weeks, and he was very compliant. He colored in the lines, ate his dinner, and was easily potty trained.

It was the younger boy whose terrible two’s lasted from eighteen months until he was seven years old. He ate art supplies, including biting the nibs off of markers (he had the most interesting diaper changes). He refused to become potty trained until he was almost five years old. He did have a language delay, but freaked out the neurologist at age three by putting together a puzzle too quickly.

Reading that, one would think he was some high functioning Asperger’s. But no. He is annoyingly normal. With some speech/language therapy he was scoring normally before kindergarten. He was always a social butterfly, who was able to engage even the most shy child. He did marching band, has had girlfriends, was a high school honor student, and has lived on his own for a couple of years. He did not become one of the 50% who got accepted to the college of engineering (it is very competitive), but has redirected himself to becoming a teacher. Because that is what he has been doing for five years, including working with the special populations that include autism.

While his older brother still struggles. In short the child who drove me crazy when he was young is doing fine, the other one who was quiet and compliant is who I worry about.

This is why I view some of the stories of the misdeeds of autistic children a bit differently.

@ Chris: Just kidding…I know you are posting from the West Coast.

I visit and post on Autismum’s blog frequently; she is a super mom to Pwdin and a gutsy blogger, as well. (Could we ever forget how she took on that awful creature “Patriot Nurse”?)

Best wishes to you and your family.

Actually I thought parenthood was making sure the kid was alive at bedtime.

Did I set the bar too low?

Because there were some close moments, like the seizures or the blue foot prints up the white carpeted stairs.

Chris @ 1:28 am 4 Jul in other time zones

parenthood was making sure the kid was alive at bedtime

Yeah, both were. But part of my point was I try to help themmake the decisions that will keep them alive until then.

Disclaimer: one kid fell off his bike so many times today, we need to find the right wrench to reposition the back brake on the bike before he flips over the handlebars, because he only has two speeds: full or stop. Then again, same kid chews out the neighbors kid when they take helmets off.

@ 1:29 am Happy to hear some good news!

Thanks. I am still writing about the surgery experience plus the aftermath. It is apparently not a simple thing to remove a thumb size chunk of interior heart muscle. That causes the body to go “Oooh, you hurt me! I will beat faster and cause more issues!”, and then hopefully calm down where nine years of inactivity then can be addressed.

The probability of child waking up in the morning has increased.

Sometimes parents who had a child with hypertrophic cardiomyopathy only found out about the condition after trying to wake up a dead child in the morning. I spent almost nine years wondering if that would happen to us. While that probability still exists, it is much lower now. Kind of like getting a vaccine.

[blush] Thank you.