A couple of months ago, a reader sent me an article that really disturbed me. In fact, I had originally been planning to write about it not long after I received it. However, as I’ve mentioned before, when it comes to blogging, I’m a bit like Dug the Talking Dog from the movie Up in that I’m easily distracted. Unlike Dug, what distracts me aren’t squirrels, but rather bright, shiney pieces of pseudoscience, quackery, paranormal, or otherwise weird nonsense. Sometimes after I’m distracted I come back to the topic I had originally wanted to blog about. Sometimes I don’t. Or, sometimes (like this time), it takes me nearly two months. I realize that that’s kind of a lame excuse, but, well, that’s just how Orac rolls. Except that Orac can’t roll, being a square Plexiglass box full of multicolored blinking lights and all.
In any case, I just realize that, as far as I can tell, I’ve never blogged about this bit of cancer quackery before. Shocking, I know. I thought I had covered pretty much every major form of cancer quackery at least once over the seven and a half years this blog has been in existence. But I was wrong! This cannot stand! I must cover it!
Unfortunately, the article that brought my attention (back) to this particular form of cancer quackery is a story that is very sad. It is the story of Bernie Mulligan:
To Bernie Mulligan, chemotherapy is just a temporary setback.
The 45-year-old carpenter at the University of Windsor refused all traditional treatments for his terminal stomach cancer for about two months, until complications from an expanding liver landed him in the hospital.
On Monday, he reluctantly started chemotherapy for the first time.
Doctors say Mulligan will be lucky if he lives another two months, but he said he’s not worried. He just needs the chemotherapy to shrink his liver to the point where he can get back to the real cure, he said — a supplement in a rainbow-coloured bottle called Cantron.
“That’s the stuff that’s going to cure me. This stuff is not a cure, chemo’s not a cure,” he said. “When I got rushed into the hospital two weeks ago, yes, I thought I was done. But now I’m confident.”
Mulligan is one of many Windsor cancer patients who have crossed the border over the years to attend meetings of an organization based out of Warren, Mich., that promotes Cantron as a miracle cure.
Stomach cancer is, generally speaking, a bad actor. It’s the sort of tumor that’s hard enough to treat even when it’s localized to the stomach, but when it’s metastasized to the liver, as it has in Mr. Mulligan’s case, it’s incurable.
According to a video on the Windsor Star website, back in February Mulligan had been experiencing pains in his upper abdomen. He thought it was a “stomach bug” and was going to see his family doctor that very day when he started vomiting blood and ended up in the emergency room. At the time, it was found that he had numerous metastases in his liver. Ultimately the primary cancer was located and turned out to be what sounds to me like an upper stomach cancer or a cancer at the gastroesophageal junction, which, if true, is more esophageal cancer than gastric cancer. Be that as it may, esophageal cancer is a bad actor, too.
It’s a horrible thing when a man this young is faced with a terminal cancer diagnosis, and that’s exactly what Mulligan was facing. However, if there’s one thing I always try to emphasize, it’s that “incurable” does not mean “not treatable.” If there’s one area of cancer care that’s advanced enormously over the last 20 or 30 years, it’s palliative care. Even though palliative care is not designed to prolong life but rather to relieve symptoms, there is evidence that good palliative care results in prolongation of life. Of course, I realize that telling a 45-year-old man, who probably expected to live another 35 or 40 years, that we have good palliative care is not a message that is likely to be satisfying. We all want to live!
Enter the cancer quacks
Although it is the ethical and science-based thing to do to provide an honest assessment of prognosis based on the patient’s presentation and what we know from science, unfortunately, there are plenty of “alternative” medicine practitioners out there who are more than happy to give a message of hope when there is little or no hope. Such a message causes a lot of harm, such as leading the patient to waste huge amounts of money to the point where he might bankrupt his family and leave nothing left for them after he’s gone, causing unnecessary pain and complications, and, to put it bluntly, deceiving the patient with false hope. Of course, some patients are more susceptible to false hope than others, and Mulligan appears to be one of those patients. In his video, he talks about eschewing conventional therapy and going for homeopathic remedies before discovering Cantron.
But what is Cantron? The same basic formula has appeared under a wide variety of names, such as Sheridan’s Formula, Jim’s Juice, JS–114, JS–101, 126–F, Crocinic Acid, and, of course, Entelev, Protocel, and Cantron. The version of the magic cancer cure being used by Bernie Mulligan is sold by a company called Medical Research Products. It comes in bottles festooned with happy, cheerful colors, and its sales pitch runs like this:
Cantron® is an amazing bio-electrical wellness formulation. It provides astonishing health benefits like no other substance on Earth. It is the world’s most potent antioxidant and scavenger of abnormal proteins which accumulate in the blood, tissues, organs and joints. Cantron is known to dramatically aid the body’s own natural defenses. Since 1984, it has received rave reviews from those who have taken it. One customer summed it up perfectly on an Internet chat site when she emphatically stated: “How blessed we are to know about Cantron.”
I wouldn’t exactly put it that way.
Notice the pure snake oil-style appeal mixed with what I like to call science word salad. “Bio-electric wellness formulation”? It’s a meaningless term. “Scavenger of abnormal proteins”? Highly unlikely. “Dramatically aid the body’s own natural defenses”? That’s just another way of phrasing the quack’s favorite meaninglessly vague claim that his nostrum “boosts the immune system.” Then, of course, there is the appeal to testimonial, wherein no science is presented but instead we’re told how much people like the product and how much good it’s allegedly done for people.
But what is Cantron? It turns out that there are several products that are very similar to Cantron. The original was Entelev, later rebranded as CanCell, which, as described in the article and on various web pages and articles as having first been conceived and compounded in the 1936 by a chemist working for the Dow Chemical Company named James V. Sheridan, who first called his concoction Entelev. Why did he choose that name? In an interview, Sheridan once said that the idea came to him in a dream that he believed to be inspired by God, explaining many years later that the name Entelev came from “entelechy” (that part of the living process known only to God) and “ev” (which came from the word “electrovalent”), the latter being added so that the name would have something for everyone. Another version of the tale, told by a believer, can be found here.
According to the company website, Sheridan apparently did some animal studies in the late 1940s (one wonders why it took him 10 or 12 years to go from making up his concoction to doing animal studies), but there is precious little objective evidence from parties not selling the compound that he ever did anything of the sort. It’s also claimed that he attempted to do clinical trials while working at the Michigan Cancer Institute back in the 1950s. That claim actually raised an eyebrow, because, being in Michigan, I had never heard of the Michigan Cancer Institute. There is currently a Michigan Cancer Institute. However, it doesn’t appear to be a research-based institution but rather part of a private hospital. As is so often the case in stories like this, the history just doesn’t add up.
Be that as it may, according to the company website the next phase of the story occurred in the late 1950s through the 1960s, when, it is claimed, Sheridan was working for Battelle Laboratories, he did more work on his treatment. I don’t have direct knowledge that can help me evaluate this claim (although I do find it curious that so little is revealed about what Sheridan was doing , but I did do a PubMed search for James V. Sheridan and failed to find any publications by him at all. Given that he continued to work on Entelev at least into the 1980s, if he had published anything in the peer-reviewed literature it should be locatable on PubMed. It’s not. Then, from 1974 to 1983, Sheridan reportedly gave the formula away free of charge to over 1,000 people. In any case, the only evidence out there that I could find that Sheridan ever tried to do clinical trials is the existence of an application for investigational new drug (IND) status for CanCell (IND #20258) from 1982, which was not granted because the FDA asked for more information but didn’t get it. Specifically, the FDA asked for the chemical formulation (which is proprietary and has not been revealed by Sheridan or any others making the compound) and animal studies demonstrating activity against cancer, which are pretty basic bits of information required for all INDs.
Then, in 1984, a man named Edward J. Sopcak acquired the formula for Entelev. How this came about is somewhat unclear, but we do know that in 1984 the FDA issued an order to cease and desist distributing Entelev to patients. Whether that happened before or after Sopcak acquired the formula is unclear. The company claims it was before, because Sheridan realized the jig was up and that the FDA was going to shut him down; so he wanted to get the formula out to others. (Obviously, that’s not how they put it.) Particularly revealing, albeit no doubt unintentionally so, is this tidbid on the Medical Research Products website describing Sheridan, in which he is described thusly, “Jim also had no tolerance for complying with rigid manufacturing procedures that the FDA demanded.” No doubt, given that at that time he was manufacturing his product in his house, as documented in a famous Detroit Monthly article in 1984, Hope on a Hot Plate (the title was based on the way Sheridan cooked up Entelev on a hot plate in his pantry), and in another incident was observed to be carrying out pH testing in his kitchen while his wife was cooking chicken for dinner.
In any case, Sheridan apparently teamed up with a history teacher from Plymouth, MI named Don Wilson who became a “missionary” for Sheridan; Orville “Orz” Feather, a chemical engineer; and, of course, Ed Sopcak. Thus was CanCell born; it was basically Entelev renamed. By 1989, the FDA asked for and received a permanent injunction against Sheridan and Sopcak prohibiting them from introducing their compound into interstate commerce on the basis that they were adulterated, misbranded, and unapproved new drugs. For several years, this seems not to have stopped Sopcak, who superseded Sheridan as the primary promoter of CanCell, from distributing it under the names Protocel and Entelev. Ultimately, in the 1990s, Sopcak and Sheridan complied, but that didn’t stop other companies from making the same or similar products.
Cantron: False hope
So what are Cantron, Entelev, Protocel, and the plethora of products based on Jim Sheridan’s original “juice”? Finding that out isn’t exactly easy because the formula has been proprietary. Moreover, the purported explanations of how it supposedly works are, to put it kindly, a moving target. However, there are several explanations in common that resemble to some extent the paragraph I cited above. For instance, the Alternative Cancer Treatments Comparison and Testing website, which has a wonderfully catty criticism of Protocel relative to Cantron, which is, according to the website, so much better than Protocel, even though the unwashed masses buy more Protocel because they “mistakenly believe that the Protocel formula is controlled by the developer or his surviving family”:
Both Cantron and Protocel work by reducing the ATP energy (adenosine triphosphate) in each cell of your body. (This is also one of the cancer fighting effects of Paw Paw and Graviola.) Our cells have an electrical potential that effects how the cell processes energy producing substances mostly blood sugar and oxygen from our blood supply…
By reducing this voltage level from 70 to 110 mv to something in the 50 mv region, normal cells can still function. However, cancer and viral cells cannot process energy at this low voltage level and start to starve. The process of starving is a slower process than being poisoned which is why Cancell works slower than chemo and why there was a dramatic reduction in the weight of tumor cells in the two day NCI test of Cancell, but only a small number of dead cells. Had that test run longer, all the tumor cells that showed such dramatic weight reduction would have starved to death. For more on the NCI test, go to the Comments on the NCI Test Summary for Cancell page.
It is always amusing to see such gross ignorance of basic biology, or, as I like to call it, burning stupid. Viruses are not cells. You can’t starve them. They also apparently don’t know that the membrane potential of cells is generally expressed as a negative voltage. I do, however, like the special pleading that the NCI test didn’t measure the right thing, as if the NCI doesn’t know what to measure when testing putative new cancer therapies in vitro and in vivo. Similarly, the part about reducing the resting electrochemical gradient across the cell membrane to the -50 mV range is pure nonsense. The main reason the voltage potential across a cell membrane decreases is either because the cell lacks ATP (which is the source of chemical energy for most cellular reactions, such as the ion pumps that maintain the gradient); something else (a poison, for instance) is inhibiting the ion pumps; or the membrane is leaky, dispersing the ion gradient. In any case, cells have a wide variety of resting potentials, and, in fact, promoters of Cantron get it exactly wrong. In actuality, resting potential corresponds with proliferative potential. Cells with a low proliferative potential tend to have high resting membrane potentials (say, -90 mV), while cells more able to proliferate have a lower resting potential. That includes cancer cells. Of course, it’s more complicated than that in that tumor cells tend to undergo a hyperpolarized phase (higher voltage) while replicating, but the makers of Cantron get the biology all wrong. More differentiated cells tend to have higher resting membrane potential, and lower resting membrane potential tends to be associated with dediffrentiation.
Another claim by Cantron promoters for how it works is Sheridan’s original rationale. In his IND application, he stated that cancer is a protein disease and that there are three kinds of cells: normal, primitive, and cancerous. In a “cancer relationship,” Sheridan argues, cellular proteins become less differentiated than usual and can only replicate cancer proteins. Of course, one notes that in general proteins do not replicate; they are made by transcription and translation of the cell’s DNA, but that didn’t stop Sheridan from claiming that Entelev allowed cancer cells to attain the “primitive state,” which would lead them to self-destruct. This is such utter nonsense from a biological standpoint that it defies reason that a biochemist could believe it, but apparently Sheridan did.
Sopcak’s explanation, on the other hand, was slightly different in that he claimed that cancer cells are mutated anaerobic cells caused by lack of proper diet that causes chemical and electrical damage. His idea of cancer causation is that Progenitor cryptocides becomes active and helps healthy cells respire anaerobically. According to Sopcak, when the cell’s energy needs outstrip the ability of anaerobic metabolism to supply them, the cell mutates and becomes a cancer cell in an irreversible process. One must admit that this sounds a heck of a lot more plausible than Sheridan’s explanation, with its clever co-optation of the Warburg effect and hypotheses that have been around a while about how metabolism can contribute to cancer development. So how does Entelev reverse this process? Here’s where Sopcak goes off the deep end. He claimed that Entelev changed the “vibrational energy and frequency” of cancer cells until they reach the “primitive state” postulated by Sheridan. The cells then autodigest, to be eliminated through the urine, feces, being coughed up, through perspiration, or even through a vaginal discharge. After this happens, cancer cells are replaced by normal cells.
Amusingly, Sopcak has also been quoted as saying that he believes all medicine in the future will ultimately be practiced by adjusting vibrational frequencies. Perhaps that’s why it didn’t take him too long to get into homeopathy. He even made a homeopathic version of CanCell and called it—I kid you not—CanCell, thus causing no end of confusion, particularly because the clear homeopathic version looked very different from the dark-colored original version. In any case, Enteleve/CanCell/Cantron has been promoted as a cure for AIDS, herpes, chronic fatigue syndrome, lupus, endometriosis, Crohn’s disease, fibromyalgia, diabetes, emphysema, scleroderma, Lou Gehrig disease, multiple sclerosis, cystic fibrosis, muscular dystrophy, Parkinson disease, Alzheimer disease, hemophilia, high and low blood pressure, mental illness, and some forms of epilepsy.
And ya might not believe this, little fella, but it’ll cure your asthma, too. I do note, however, that Cantron, or whatever one wants to call it, has been administered orally, rectally, and topically. If you want the nitty gritty of his pseudoscience, he expounds upon his beliefs and claims for Cantron in detail in this interview from 1996. In this interview, he admits that CanCell is nothing but “very pure water” and claims that it’s a “programmed crystal.” Even more amusingly, from a standpoint of homeopathy, he claims that he removes the memory from these water crystals and imprints the memory he wants. Elsewhere, he describes CanCell as a “vibrational catalyst”:
ACRES U.S.A.: Allow us to back up a bit. What is the substance called Cancell? What is the theory behind it? How does it work? How do you make it?
SOPCAK: The new Cancell analyzes as very pure water. That’s what it is.
ACRES U.S.A.: Just very pure water?
SOPCAK: That’s right. It is a programmed crystal. Water is a crystalline substance. If it weren’t crystalline, when it changes its physical state from water to a solid, you wouldn’t get snowflakes. I have simply erased the memory of the water. People make statements such as, There are no two snowflakes exactly the same. That’s because the memory in that crystal is so variable that snowflakes crystalize out just a little differently each time. Before you impress a memory on a crystal, you have to take out the memory that is there. I remove the memory.
ACRES U.S.A.: How do you remove the memory? Is this a case of magnetism?
SOPCAK: No, you can’t come close to this with anything electrical or magnetic, or with any of the dense material like magnets or minerals. We don’t do any of those things. I’d rather not get too deeply into that because I hate to see people become involved in what they don’t understand, and then put out something definitely harmful.
So let me get this straight. If Cantron is the same as CanCell, it’s basically water. However, in the photos on the Medical Research Products website Cantron looks like the dark liquid that Jim Sheridan used to sell as Entelev after cooking it up in on a hot plate in his kitchen and pantry. None of this stops him from going wild with the woo:
Basically, I get extremely fundamental once I make the statement that nothing exists in the entire universe except electromagnetic vibrational frequencies viewed from that plane of observation, that’s it. There’s nothing else. Then what you get into is diseases as vibrational densities. The problem is to raise the vibrational frequency of those densities, and then the body will return itself to normal. Diseases no longer exist.
Vibrations. Why does it always have to be vibrations? Every quack, cancer or otherwise, seems to think that vibrations are the be-all and end-all of everything; that is, when they don’t think that evil humors—excuse me, energy blockages—are the cause of all disease.
So what’s in Entelev/CanCell/Cantron? Not a lot, actually. In 1989, an FDA review found that it is made up of fairly unremarkable chemicals, including nitric acid, sodium sulfite, potassium hydroxide, sulfuric acid, inositol, and catechol. The Cantron website says that it contains copper, sodium, sulfur, postassium, as well as traces of iron, zinc, and bromine. None of what’s in Cantron appears to have any anticancer activity at the levels one might expect in the human body, per the NCI:
In 1990 and 1991, samples of Cancell/Cantron/Protocel were evaluated in NCI’s in vitro 60 Human Tumor Cell Line Screen. The test results are available online. The graphs and the numerical designations for each of the three cancer cell growth criteria (GI50, concentration required for 50% inhibition of cell growth; TGI, concentration required for total inhibition of cell growth; and LC50, concentration required for 50% cell lethality or death) are somewhat complicated, but a technical explanation is provided in the Appendix 3. There is little evidence that any of the constituents of Cancell/Cantron/Protocel would be available in the bloodstream of a patient in significant concentrations after its ingestion. Activity was seen in two-thirds of the cell lines, though at levels that would be roughly 275 times higher than the theoretical maximum concentration achievable in serum. Therefore, the in vitro effects are likely due to nonspecific effects of changes in salt concentration. Furthermore, cells in the NCI Tumor Cell Line Screen are grown in artificial media under conditions that do not truly mimic the in vivo situation in animals or humans, and that results obtained with the screen may not accurately reflect possible effects in humans. To place the findings for Cancell/Cantron/Protocel in perspective any conventional drug exhibiting this low level of in vitro activity in the NCI human cancer cell line screen would normally not be investigated further by NCI.
A dietary supplement?
So how do the manufacturers of Cantron and its many imitators get away with it? How is it that they keep selling it? The answer is easy: Blame the DSHEA of 1994. Cantron, according to Medical Research Products, is a dietary supplement, as explained in these bullet points:
- Cantron is offered only as a dietary supplement.
- Medical Research Products makes no claims nor prescribes this product (or any other product) for the cure, prevention or mitigation of any chronic disease.
- Cantron is not approved by the FDA or endorsed by the AMA for the treatment of any medical condition.
- The FDA has not evaluated any statements of “health claims” made by MRP.
- DO NOT IGNORE THE ADVICE OF YOUR PHYSICIAN. Do not use Cantron in lieu of any life saving treatments which have been prescribed by your physician.
- Cantron is one very important part of a Total Wellness Program where one treats the whole nature of the individual through nutritional supplementation, diet, exercise, meditation, prayer, etc..
- Cantron may be taken by itself, however, it is the primary product in our ‘Total Wellness Program’, which is a portfolio of synergistic products designed to stimulate the body’s own natural healing processes.
This brings us back to Bernie Mulligan. How on earth is it that Bernie Mulligan can be deceived to believe that Cantron will cure his stage IV esophageal cancer, with his liver packed with metastatic tumor? Certainly Medical Research Products isn’t telling him that. To the company, it’s all just a “supplement” that “promotes wellness naturally.” Jerome Godin even emphasizes that in the article, stating in no uncertain terms that he is very careful to obey the law. He does, however, disingenuously add, “I just make my product and those who believe in it usually promote it on their own.”
People like Andy Johnson:
On April 18, Johnson did what he does on the third Wednesday of every month at noon — went to a hall in Warren, unloaded cardboard boxes full of photocopied pamphlets, books and bottles of Cantron, approached the podium and preached the good news.
And preached. And preached. Johnson, an 82-year-old man with wire-rimmed glasses, a neatly trimmed moustache and a tucked-in yellow golf shirt, spoke for an hour. He paused for half an hour to allow people who believe Cantron cured their cancer to tell their stories before launching back into his speech for another 40 minutes.
And:
Johnson made all the claims the company that produces Cantron can’t, and then some. Cantron cures cancer, he said — along with AIDS, knee problems and the common cold. He jumped up and down to illustrate the part about the knee problems.
So what we have in Andy Johnson is a true believer, and, unfortunately, he has a group, the H.O.P.E. Group, to which he can preach his belief every third Wednesday of the month, promoting misinformation such as this, where he recommends that cancer patients use Cantron with a variety of other supplements, including shark liver oil, Enzyme Formula Tablets, Willard’s Water, and Pancreatin. Even worse, Johnson apparently encourages his group members to avoid science-based treatments. Interestingly, though, Johnson’s online footprint is actually quite small, as though he’s flying under the radar. His group doesn’t appear to have its own website, and it’s hard to find out much about him online.
Be that as it may, what we have here is, in my professional opinion, a cancer quack. That he believes in his quackery makes it even worse, because it probably makes him a more effective salesman. Meanwhile, we have a company doing the old “wink, wink, nudge, nudge,” while Johnson says the things that the law prohibits the company from saying about its product. A nice arrangement, isn’t it? The treatment isn’t cheap, either, its manufacturer’s claims of wanting to make it available to everyone notwithstanding. According to the article, it costs about $500 every 20 days.
Unfortunately, the article, after having revealed this quackery, dilutes its message by in essence adding some apologia for “complementary and alternative” medicine. For instance, the author Claire Brownell writes that it’s difficult for patients to separate science from fiction and hearsay (true) but that the also “won’t necessarily get much help from their doctors, who are usually poorly trained about alternative treatments and often dismissive of the entire concept.” She also notes that the case of Cantron “doesn’t mean all alternative treatments are a scam or useless” and then cites a completely inappropriate example to illustrate her point. That example is an application for clinical trials of a dandelion root extract that apparently showed some activity against leukemia in preclinical models. Again, people, that is not in any way “alternative” or “complementary.” It’s pharmacognosy (i.e., natural products pharmacology), which is an old and productive branch of pharmacology. To equate pharmacognosy to pure quackery like Cantron is an insult to cancer pharmacologists everywhere.
I don’t know whether Mulligan is still alive. The last report I could find about him is dated May 27 and is about his attending the Telus Motorcycle Ride for Dad. The saddest part, however, is that, even after Cantron has clearly failed him to the point where even with his aversion to conventional medicine in general and chemotherapy in particular he agreed to take chemotherapy, Bernie Mulligan still believes. It’s a truly horrible thing for a man in his 40s to see the specter of his end approaching 30 or 40 years too early, to contemplate not living to see his daughters grow up, or to have the joy of seeing grandchildren. It’s entirely understandable that, lacking the scientific background to realize that there is no scientifically plausible reason to think that Cantron will work and no scientific evidence supporting its efficacy against any cancer, a man like Mulligan might grasp at anything that he thinks can save him and participate in fundraisers to raise money for an “experimental” cancer treatment. It’s companies like Medical Research Products, whose owners give no indication of being the least bit troubled by the claims being made for its products by people like Andy Johnson, that are to blame.
1,124 replies on “Entelev, CanCell, and Cantron: Not curing cancer since the 1930s”
“People make statements such as, There are no two snowflakes exactly the same. That’s because the memory in that crystal is so variable that snowflakes crystalize out just a little differently each time.”
Just wow.
JohnV — I think you mean “Just woo.”
Orac, I’ve been among those having issues with comments being refused because I’m “commenting too fast”, despite having not said anything for several days. Although I, for one, welcome our new ant overlords, they might want to look into this.
Are we entirely sure this isn’t all an elaborate parody?
“Water is a crystalline substance. If it weren’t crystalline, when it changes its physical state from water to a solid, you wouldn’t get snowflakes.”
Wow.
Hint: liquid water does not freeze to give snowflakes
That paragraph on vibrations is some of the finest word salad I have encountered in some time. The individual words all mean things, and many of the two- and even three-word combinations are sensible, but none of the full sentences actually means anything.
I know that Medial Research Products has covered their posterior here, but does the law against making medical claims not apply to people like Andy Johnson?
They should make that an exercise in every MBA program. You have $1,000 to buy little bottles, food dye and some labels; make $1,000,000.
Or maybe that’s what we’re looking at here?
Eric, it applies to him, but as a single reseller he’s too small for the FDA to go after him; so maybe someone could get him for practicing medicine without a license. But it sounds like he’s giving his whole spiel a religious undertone, and all bets are off with that. And only if he’s got a connection to the manufactures (like getting wholesale deals directly) someone could get after the true culprits.
@ Eric Lund
I couldn’t have put it better. One doesn’t know where to start the refutation.
Oh, let’s try this:
Water suffers from Alzheimer’s?
(with apologies to people suffering from Alzheimer’s and their kin)
Water is a crystalline substance?
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
“That’s the stuff that’s going to cure me.”
And that’s the reason why we must keep as much woo-lly thinking and quackery out of the acceptable public space as is humanly possible.
This man is just like millions of others who lack the training or other skill sets to make valid judgements about healthcare – procedures, products, protocols, personnel – let alone prognoses. Leading to very bad decisions with horrible consequences. This man is so young. A few weeks more with a more reasonable quality of life could have been immensely valuable if he’d followed science based advice from the onset. There really are times when every day counts.
And many of those equally deceived others are probably equally impressed with all that sciencey talk about vibrations, structures, energy, quantum and all the other fashionable trigger words.
So sad.
OT ( but when is free-flowing woo un-restricted by higher mental processes ever TRULY OT @ RI?)
Today, Safe Minds’ Katie Weisman ( also @ AoA) announces that studies show that The DSM-5 will reduce the number of ASD diagnoses significantly- therefore ACTION must be taken immediately! Amongst these is an on-line developmental study currently in the works.
I believe that I am observing the germination and early embryonic development of a new conspiracy theory: the new *reduced* numbers that will be diagnosed are evidence of tampering by the powers-that-be; the DSM-5 is merely a cover-up for the ever-increasing and un-ruly growth of the REAL epidemic.
So I suppose all snow-crystals made from a bottle of homeopathic “medicine” are exactly the same, considering they all are supposed to have the same memory. Otherwise it wouldn’t work. At least they claim it works, because the water rememers the stuff that has been in it before they started diluting and shaking the stuff.
@Adelady
It is sad. Very sad indeed. I was a “regular” at breastcancer.org’s support forum for breast cancer patients like me, but I’ve all but given up and thrown in the towel there after being driven away by a group of very vocal and very anti-science posters. I have such mixed feelings about this Protocel post because there’s currently a Stage IV breast cancer patient there sharing her “protocel 23” progress, measured by using a ruler and a protractor, and “evidenced” by eye discharge, nasal drainage, etc. I’m happy to see this science-based discussion of this quackery, but at the same time it breaks my heart to see her believing in the scam instead of seeking “real” treatment.
Enteleve/CanCell/Cantron has been promoted as a cure for AIDS, herpes, chronic fatigue syndrome, lupus, endometriosis, Crohn’s disease, fibromyalgia, diabetes, emphysema, scleroderma, Lou Gehrig disease, multiple sclerosis, cystic fibrosis, muscular dystrophy, Parkinson disease, Alzheimer disease, hemophilia, high and low blood pressure, mental illness, and some forms of epilepsy.
Geez,no mention of autism,yet? And with that pretty little spectrum label,too.
Mulligan sounds just like a “warrior mom”.Anything that mentions cure,is something you should run from as fast as possible.
Thanks for a very informative,and educational post.How DO you ever get the time to do surgery,and stuff.
Denice,for once ASAN,Safe Minds,and AoA are on the same page.ASAN has been screaming about the DSM,and issuing talking points for quite some time,that it would decrease the number of “autistics” diagnosed.Both groups hate that new social disorder designation that the DSM-V will create.
ASAN wants people diagnosed with autism who don’t meet the full criteria.
I don’t really find much I agree with either group on.
I only recently realized that most of the numbers fueling this “epidemic”,and subsequent biomed/woo movement were at the mild end of the spectrum.I sometimes wonder what parents are making all the fuss about.
I never said this on one of these blogs before,but I am one of those old timers,who was diagnosed as having “childhood schizophrenia” in the early 70s,when I was in elementary school.It was either go into an institution,or get doped up on antipsychotics.
When I was reevaluted as an adult,after the DSM-IV,they did not know where to put me.I was much worse than Asperger’s,but not as bad as classic autism.This in addition to all the metabolic-autoimmune stuff.
“Basically, I get extremely fundamental once I make the statement that nothing exists in the entire universe except electromagnetic vibrational frequencies viewed from that plane of observation, that’s it. There’s nothing else. Then what you get into is diseases as vibrational densities. The problem is to raise the vibrational frequency of those densities, and then the body will return itself to normal. Diseases no longer exist.”
Sounds startlingly similar to Terry Bohner from “A Mighty Wind” describing WINC (Witches In Nature’s Colors), “This is not an occult science, this is not one of those crazy systems of divination and astrology. That stuff’s hooey and you’d have to have a screw loose to go in for that sort of thing. Our beliefs are fairly commonplace and simple to understand– humankind is simply materialized color operating on the 49th vibration. You would make that conclusion walking down the street or going to the store.”
Only, y’know, Mighty Wind is brilliant satire, and CancerWoo is dangerous bullshit.
AVOID ALL REFINED SUGAR!
Dextrose, Maltose, Sucrose, Fructose, corn syrup, etc. It FEEDS cancer (like putting gasoline on a fire) and raises energy levels,defeating Cantron. Natural sugar in limited quantity is acceptable.Being positive and believing in what you are doing will help get you well and is the most important component to increase your chances to getting
well.
Amazing this is the same kind of woo,we have heard for years from the antivaccine crowd,about autism,and its “connection” to yeast/fungus//candida.
Those bullet points are just a variant of the quack miranda warning.
Jim’s juice,Willard’s water at least these people have a sense of humor.Disturbing images of Bruce Davison notwithstanding.
“According to the article, it costs about $500 every 20 days.”
But we have to cover our expenses! All those bottles, all that distilled water, all those coloured labels, they don’t come cheap y’know! Plus, I have decades of expertise in woo – that’s worth paying for as well. We’re barely breaking even and only doing this out of the goodness of our hearts. Not like Big Pharma, who are gouging money out of desperate, sick people, just to poison them!
And now the ad at the top of this blog is for “J. Humble approved MMS Miracle”….
@thenewme:
I know who you are talking about and it really pisses me off how that certain group of anti-science, anti-intellectual alties are cheering her on.
I have had enough of the idiots cheering on Chilli and let them have it. As a result the moderators have banned me from the boards.
Chilli is a woman that was stage one, hormone postivie, HER2-, breast cancer. Instead of treatment she embarked on a host of alternative therapies. She started a blog and became an MLMer. Her goal was to help and council people cure themselves from cancer with alternatives, while she made a living at it at the same time. Her slow growing indolent tumor grew very slowly over the next 7 years and she felt healthy. Year 7 it broke through her chest and spread like wildfire. The pain and the terrible stench brought her back to conventional medicine. For the past 3 years, she has had chemotherapy to try to shrink the tumor so she could have a mastectomy. She has not reported any other distant metastases besides the widespread skin mets. Chemo failed at clearing up the skin mets. She reports that the first two chemos work and by the 3rd chemo, her skin mets start growing again. She has numerous small tumors that have broken through the skin and some rather large ones. The most remarkable is a 23 cm fungating tumor on her breast that has spread halfway down her abdomen and to her back. The pain is excruciating esp. when she showers or tries to dress. The pain and the stench are so bad that she can no longer leave her house. She is on heavy duty painkillers.
Last month her oncologist decided to start her on the chemo drug Adriamycin and she reports that it was stopped after the 3rd treatment because it wasn’t working and her oncologist “gave her the talk”.
She posted a link to a site that sold black salve from Indonesia. There were very graphic picures of a fungating breast tumor which Chilli reported as looking exactly like hers. I told her this was a scam on the message board and pm’d her why. The alties called me stupid, ignorant and mean spirited on the boards and in personal messages.
Nevertheless, Chilli tried black salve on her smail tumors and also bought something that she’s taking in capsule form, which she claims is black salve. She claims she has tried black salve on her smaller tumors and the pain is excruciating but she has drawn out the tumors “including the roots” She explains that her salves are working differently as one is pushing out the tumor and the other is pulling out the tumor.
The alties cheer her own and tell her she is making a medical breakthrough. They tell her to document everything and save her tumors to be studied by researchers. None of them even have the basics down of biology, physiology or what cancer is or how it works.
I submitted a post on the alties lack of understanding and tell Chilli again that this is a scam and the only thing that black salve is doing is burning a big hole through her tissue. Of course this started an altie shitstorm and there were cries to ban me. Nothing new as the alties have been trying to get me banned for the last year. I get a notice that I have been banned but only until the 25th of June for violating forum rules. Alties are then free to post comments like, “so what if black salve might cause infection and bleeding. Any women getting a mastectomy has the same risks and no surgeon will operate so it makes sense for her to burn her breast off with black salve. What does she have to lose?”
Thenewme, I don’t think that I am going back to BCO, either. I have had quite enough. The mods quickly put up a quack miranda warning after my post. That site is owned by 2 physicians and supported by donations. It brings in millions of dollars every year and both physicians take salaries in the neighborhood of $200,000 a year. I would love to see them both cough up a mere $15,000 a piece and hire a physician, nurse practioner, or physician’s assitant part time to debunk the psuedoscience on the altie boards. But I am sure that would be asking too much. Whenever I complained about this to the moderators, who also have no background in science or medicine, I was told BCO supported that everyone has consent to make their own choices. What they don’t seem to understand is that the alties on that forum do not have informed consent. There are so many of them that have progressed to stage four because of all the support that they have gotten on the altie boards. I would love to see those boards taken down but it aint gonna happen.
As a counter to the woo contingent’s labeling of mainstream cancer treatment as “cut, poison and burn”, maybe we should refer to altie cancer care as “enemas, vibrations and metastasis”.
@Dangerous Bacon
But the alties have to omit burn out of “cut, poison and burn”, because that is what black salve does.
Oh wait, the mechanism of action is” pushing and pulling out tumors” and not burning.. Any hard core alite will tell you so and they certainly have.schooled me.. Black salve also has the ability to differentiate between cancerous tumors and normai tissues. My bad.
This page is carrying an advert for MMS Miracle 4oz for $8 in the header section. It says it’s J. Humble approved.
Not the first see this – apology.
@Black-cat : Having never heard of ‘Black Salve,’ I looked it up on Bing.
1: QuackWatch was the sixth hit – unfortunately, under the Shopping link.
2: Holy jumping $hitballs, people _do_ that?
Hey, Black-Cat! Good to see you here! Stinks that you were banned from BCO! I’ve been banned so many times for daring to mention any evidence-based information that contradicts their quackery. It’s so sad and very disturbing that real cancer patients are looking to that site for treatment information and the site apparently isn’t interested in maintaining any sort of evidence-based standards.
@Roadstergal, yep! Not only do people do that, other “breast cancer patients” cheer them along, praising them for being so brave and heroic. People who post *real* information are quickly driven away/banned/etc. Ugh.
@Roadstergal. My message to you got lost in cyperspace. It may be because I posted inks. As thenewme stated, people do this. I have found black salve testimonials all over the net.
You can see the black salve site and Chilli’s post on BCO if you go to breast cancer org, forums, alternative medicine and go to the thread, “topic:scary bc removal photos”
@thenewme-another good person was also driven away. You know the one.. She has a degree in microbiology at the graduate level and had a lifelong career as a microbiologist in research. Two of her children are also physicians She has been told that she is extremely ignorant by an extremely ignorant alte. Another alitie has told her that she doesent know how to read and interpret the studies she posts and suggsted that she should get educated before she posts anything.on the altie fourm again.
It’s amazing, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a snake oil that -didn’t- claim to cure chronic fatigue and Lyme disease.
My daughter used to post at an altie parenting site. She started when she was breastfeeding her first child. Now she says there are new rules. You will be banned if you talk about weaning, circumcision, or vaccinating your child. I have also posted at BreastCancer.org and it has become apparent that the regulars on the altie threads there want that type of control over what is posted about breast cancer treatment.
When people don’t have facts on their side they turn to bullying. It is a shame. But at least we can come here for a dose of sanity.
@ Roger Kulp:
Yes, according to studies @ Yale ( reviewed by Jon Brock) the diagnoses of Asperger’s will be most reduced.
I think I’m slightly older than you are. Despite my education in psych, autism was considered a relatively rare syndrome- whereas MR and various ‘neuroses” and ‘psychoses” were more often the topics of discussion. Altho’ we were starting to regard *social* cognition in child/ adolescent development.
Personally, throughout my peripatetic degree quest: *wherever* I was or *whatever* I was studying, I believe I knew quite a few gentlemen who would have been diagnosed as having Asperger’s if they had been born later. I think that Simon Baron-Cohen may be on to something with his ideas of certain career choices- engineers, scientists,- the organisers. Doesn’t the UK study of older autists show a figure of around 1% despite age? I would expect that.
RE: black salves
The entire sordid, despicable tale of Greg Caton and *Cansema* is recounted at Wikipedia and other places.
Bizarrely enough, when he was caught, chief amongst his *defenders* was MIke Adams, the Health Ranger ( see stories at Natural News via search function)
Health freedom,, right. Freedom to harm.
@Denice Walter I have sent the woman using black salve the link to quackwatch. I read the wikipedia article but failed to send her that one. I don’t think it would have mattered if I did. The alties on BCO claim that quackwatch is a hate site and that wikipedia does not support alternative medicine.
The person who has the indonesia black salve site calls himself Wayan. He has personally called her and sends her frequent emails. She’s eccstatic that someone so important cares about her and can make her look normal again. She has stopped seeing her oncologist and is resorting to emails.
It just figures that Mike Adams is a black salve supporter. The alties rant and rave about their health ranger hero.
whoops, I got canton and black salve mixed up. I can’t keep track of all these miracle cures.
@ Black-cat:
About quackwatch:
one of the woo-meisters I survey tells the faithful that Dr Barrett is chief amongst alt med’s enemies ( Orac has been mentioned as well) . Oddly, he nevers mentions the site’s real name – he calls Dr Barrett and other sceptics, “quackbusters”- I believe it’s because that name leads to Bolen’s anti-SBM site, not Barrett’s – lord forbid his audience read that!
Supposedly, Barrett, wikipedia and other sceptics will meet their eventual comeuppance in court where brave health freedom fighters fight most of their scientific battles.-btw- The idiot’s 100million USD suit against wikipedia has already been dismissed. ( courtesy of quackwatch)
SOPCAK: “No, you can’t come close to this with anything electrical or magnetic, or with any of the dense material like magnets or minerals. We don’t do any of those things. I’d rather not get too deeply into that because I hate to see people become involved in what they don’t understand, and then put out something definitely harmful.
Basically, I get extremely fundamental once I make the statement that nothing exists in the entire universe except electromagnetic vibrational frequencies viewed from that plane of observation, that’s it. There’s nothing else. Then what you get into is diseases as vibrational densities. The problem is to raise the vibrational frequency of those densities, and then the body will return itself to normal. Diseases no longer exist.”
It’s been awhile since my psych rotation, but that sounds awfully similar to the things I’d hear from the inpatient schizophrenics…
The quacks who sell Protocel and related compounds have quite a scam going. Patients are told that its effects wax and wane so if there is evidence of the tumor getting larger they should just continue on with the therapy. wasting valuable time they could have been using on cancer therapy that works.
@ GRichard:
Altho’ it does indeed sound like in-patient schizophrenics, it *also* sounds a great deal like Royal Rife AND Gary Null.
@Denise Walter
The alties on BCO love TIm Bolen. He is their mentor and savior. They post all his latest updates on Dr Barret and of course the vulgar rants on Orac. They have posted that Dr Barret is delicensed and works as an estesian in a nail salon in a strip mall. They know this because Timmy told them so.
I posted parts of Timmy’s depostion in the aetna lawsuit against the maker of that bogus dental advice. You know the ones where he forgot where he lived and did not remember how many years he went to school.
Really pissed off the alties.
http://timbolen.blogspot.com/2012/04/patrick-timothy-bolen-liar-and-loser.html
@Denise Walters:
Here are some of the greatest hits of the BCO alties concerning Quackwatch and Orac:
What’s more, you don’t have to be a descendent of Einstein to know that Orac, Quackwatch and all their so-called reliable sources have no real place on an alternative medicine forum. It’s just spam
BEWARE of Quackwatch–biased “research” from Wikipediia
“Watching the Watchdogs at Quackwatch” by Joel M. Kauffman, Ph.D. (Professor Emeritus of the Department of Chemistry & Biochemistry at University of the Sciences
I get really cranky when people invite themselves to the Alt forums with their quackpot propaganda and leave trails of insults. I’ve seen minimum half a dozen links to the quackwatch and Orac’s sites in the past 24 hours. There are way too many squatters of that sort here and BCO should address this major problem before things get really out of hand
Quackbusters: “Bullys” Barrett, Baratz, Sued For 1.3 Million in Canada
According to court documents recently filed in Canada, Barrett and Baratz’s “bullying” was listed in 86 separate “claims,” with 176 separate “allegations,” 463 requests to admit, backed by a demand for authenticity of 47 documents
Dr. Stephen Barrett of Quackwatch Exposed In Court Cases
Now, that sounds pretty hostile to me, and your casewatch and quackwatch sources laughable
Could not find much on Tim Bolen except for his website (very interesting reading) but did find a whole lot of very confused ramblings from the quackwatchers/skeptics’ guru. Oh Boy !! he thinks he’s a prophet, scarrrrry
While quackwatch is busy trying to shoot down those who promote alternative cures and use of supplementation, a nasty drug like Cipro slips through the cracks and causes permanent injury
Glad most of you enjoyed the article about the quack who runs quackwatch.
have been keeping abreast of what is happening with a group called, quackwatch, often cited around here, as a source for “exposing” holistic health businesses. Here is the latest on a lawsuit that hopefully will exonerate those who the quacks at quackwatch are trying to push out of business:
Could the Doctor’s Data “Protective Order” Actually Shut Down Barrett,
Quackwatch, and the Skeptics?
Opinion by Consumer Advocate Tim Bolen
Vivre, this is excellent news. That QW site is just a hate site with no review system or any way to remove inaccurate or biased information. Thanks for posting the other site.
The newspaper described Barrett who runs the quackwatch site as a de-licensed doctor who runs a hair removal parlor in a strip mall. You can’t make this stuff up.
I tried to read a Hulda Clark book once but it was really technical and way over my head. If her methods work, then the parasite theory is a moot point. After all, pain killing tablets still work regardless of whether we understand what exactly caused the pain.
I like to look for similarities in cancer treatments that have had some success. Intestinal cleanses, fasts, juicing, low energy diets, these seem to be common to many versions of treatments though it’s hard to know how successful each treatment was without proper studies.
I posted this about Bolen and it worked. The alties have stopped quoting him.
You probably did not know that Tim Bolen is indigent and collecting welfare. Yep, our tax dollars are paying for the trash that Tim Bolen is spewing. He is vulgar, highly dishonest, has no intregrity or class and seems to attract the same kind of people. Like attracts like. I understand that he is Vivre’s mentor and hero, also. He has such a potty mouth that I like to refer to him as Timmy Toilet Mouth or simply timmytoilet. His real name is Patrick and he has a cousin named TIm that wants him to stop using the name as he does not want to be mistaken for this moron.
Here is is trying to remember where he lives which is hilarious. Timmie summers in a post office box and winters in a shack in the Cleveland National Forest. He has no electricity and uses a squat toilet. What kind of person lives in a shack in a national forest? Can you say unibomber. I knew you could.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmEIF7...
I hope not to sound crank-ish, but …
is it really productive to attempt to bring science to places whose purpose is provide a congregation for arrogant, spiteful anti-science con artists? These people look less like innocent victims and more like a mob.
It might be better to encourage them to document their progress, including “temporary” setbacks (all the more evidence that faith healing overcomes!) and scrupulously avoid pharma/radiation/hospitals and rigid conventional logic. Encourage photos, measurements and exams by conventional MDs but no nasty conventional medicine. One needs to have some 3rd party records.
If an altie expires they’re just returning to the crystal energy sphere or whatever… how can they have a problem with that?
Should Orac post some insolence about BCO? Does he know the owners?
Black-cat, your experience with the breast cancer support forum seem eerily familiar. I had very similar things happen when I was on the Apraxia-Kids listserv. One person tried to get me booted off just because I mentioned that the MMR vaccine did not contain thimerosal, and I received lots of nasty grams when I wrote a comment saying chelation was a bad idea. So I left. And then Roy Kerry killed a kid just because he was autistic by forced chelation a month or so later.
Ah, yes! I remember Tim Bolen from those days. I had joined the Healthfraud listserv and posted some comments. Bolen had also signed up for it and was reading our emails, plus gathering them up to spam us. When I changed service providers I did not sign up again (except much later, but I only lurk). More on Tim Bolen:
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/timoranter.htm
@Kelly M Bray
The site is owned by Marsha Weis M.D. and Hope Wahl.
Here is their 2008 non profit tax exemption form:
http://www.breastcancer.org/Images/2009%20Form%20990-PF_tcm8-334666.pdf
In 2007, BCO pulled in 4.5 million with 1.4 million going to salaries. In 2008 BCO pulled in 2.5 million with 1.6 million going to salaries. They made a llittle more than half the money of the previous year but salaries were increased.
Marsha Weiss was compensated $240,901 and reported a 40 hour workweek.
Hope Wohl drew a salary of 196,119 and also reported a 40 hour workweek. 3 others have salaries of 100,000 including the director of marketing.
I don’t know what they are doing with their 40 hour work weeks as they sure haven’t showed up in the altie forums.
A cynical person would say that the crazies help drive the traffic. Kind of like making money off dead and dying people without really helping them…..
@Chris
Oh God, we have the anti vaccers on BCO too. I think a good little militant altie has to be an anti vaccer to fit in and be excepted by the woo community.
I love ratbags and Peter Bowditch. That picture of him sitting outside Timmy’s post office box residence is priceless.
The video of Timmy in the deposition trying to remember his education is priceless. He spent 16 years in community college and could not remember his major and never graduated.
I read the whole deposition. I forget where I found it. It was scary and hilarious. I wish whoever has it would post it on the internet. I would love to see the video.
The scariest part was that Timmy admitted under oath that he has no employment, no income, is on county welfare for his wife’s medical bills and that he traveled across county (from southern california to the one of the southern states where Dr Barret lives) He stood outside Dr. Barret’s house and took pictures and posted them on the internet.
Timmy also admitted under oath that he owns guns, lots of guns and can’t remember the exact number or if his guns are registered with the state of california.
I found Ratbags and Peter Bowditch through Quackwatch. His site was the link to find the untrustworthy website (the 1000 links Bowditch did not like). From there I signed on to the Healthfraud listserv, and decided to spend more time on Usenet.
And on Usenet I was introduced to Orac. So here I am. I started commenting on his blogspot page when it started with my old poisonous ‘nym. The one in which Scudamore created a whale.to page for (something that makes me proud).
@Kelly M Bray
Re: A cynical person would say that the crazies help drive the traffic. Kind of like making money off dead and dying people without really helping them…..
The altie forums generate more traffic than any of the others esp. if there is an argument going on. If it gets too vicious, the moderators pull the thread from the active threads so nobody seesit and starts deleting posts. I had many non threatening rational posts deleted and asked why. The moderators told me that the thread was getting contentious and even though I did not violate forum rules, my post was upsetting the alties. They felt it better to pull it to keep the peace.
I am keeping a list of the women that have progressed to stage four and some because of that forum. One started out stage 1 and started out on the stage one forum. She found the altie forum, was told she could cure herself by some uneducated idiots. She found Robert O Young and believed cancer was a fungas. She has just been diagnosed as stage 4 with liver mets. She still believes her cancer is a fungas and is treating it with an intervenous antifungal drug given to her by an alternative nurse practionar
Than there is the 37 mother of 3 that was diagnosed stage 3 and had a mastectomy but was persuaded by the alties not to have chemo or radiation. She saw that drug addicted quack Thomoas Lodi at Oasis of Hope in Arizona. She is now stage 4.
I am keeping a list of all the women that were harmed by the altie boards on BCO
@ Spectator
The con artists and other leaders of these congregations are not going to be swayed, that’s true. But we can always hope to convince the fence-sitters and lurkers, and maybe get a few of the believers to check again what science has to say, but more deeply this time.
The two are not necessarily exclusive. It’s a community, whose gurus claim to be under fire by officials for daring to propose a super cure and competing with the big shots. So mob-like protecting behavior is to be expected, especially form the hard-core believers.
But at the individual level, most of them are innocent, unless you count believing in weird stuff as a crime.
I will amend this by agreeing that, in case of MMS by example, giving to your child a toxic substance after being repeatedly told of its toxicity (it’s bleach!) pull you out of the innocent group.
On one hand, we would love for all of these promise-makers to document their treatments and publicize them, including the unsuccessful ones. It would make it easier to distinguish between the snake oil vendors, the deluded, and, who knows, those who may be onto something.
On the other hand, there are ethical issues (the woo believers are not treating themselves, but their children), and also, a number of them are mixing woo and mainstream treatments.
A typical story is for parents to give antibiotics to their sick child, not noting any improvement after 2 days, and then giving the child vitamin C, or whatever else is in fashion. And next day, voila, instant cure.
Only altie treatments that seem to have worked are publicized. Even those cases are “forgotten” if the patient dies of their cancer.
I am always amazed how nausea vomiting and weakness are evil side effects of conventional cancer teratment but with alternative treatment are sign that the body is ridding itself of toxins or fungi or viruses or the altie cancer cure de jour.
@ Black-cat
If I read your story about Chilli, I wonder how stubborn some people can be. Turning to alties to fight cancer, then, when it doesn’t work, go to conventional methods, which can’t offer much, because the spread of the cancer, and though the alties didn’t work and are responsible for the spread of the cancer, return to them, to make things even worse, if that is possible.
@Roger Kulp
Dextrose, Maltose, Sucrose, Fructose, corn syrup
and then
autism,and its “connection” to yeast/fungus//candida.
gee…I think I’ll have a lambic beer 🙂
seriously, how do they think beer was made for many thousand years before the discovery & use of saccharomyces cerevisiae and if beer was responsible for autism, you’d have a new meaning of the word epidemics…
A.L.
@Renate
I don’t think it’s about being stubborn but rather living in a fantasy world where you can have anything you want if you just want it hard enough.
One of the biggest and most dangerous moron’s of BCO announced a while back that she was going to make a living for her family being a day trader. Never mind that to be successful in this field you need to pursue an MBA and than intern wtih a good company when you get out. Even than a lot of people don’t make it. She was going to be a successful day trader because she thought she would be good at it and believed in the secret.
She returned 3 weeks later announceing that she had lost money and was very depressed that she wasnt able to support her family. The same women flunked out of nursing school and than naturopathic school and reasoned that it was because school was for elitists and she just did not fit in.
None of this stops her from counseling women not to get chemotherapy and radiation and to pursue alternatives. She also believes surgery spreads cancer.
She used to go by Sheila but her new name is JoyLiesWithin.
How profound.
Here are the blogs of the 2 oher women that I mentioned. We are not supposed to know how sick they are and tthese blogs are top secret. In fact JoyLiesWithin just reported on BCO that this women is doing OK.
This is the woman that started out stage one, progressed to stage 2 and found a quack cancer treatment center that agreed with her that cancer was a fungas. I believe she had 40 treatments consisting of IV laetrile, DMSO and vitamin C. They cost in the neighborhood of 60,000 cash. Cash only and they will not accept credit cards..
After her 40 treatments, she received a PET scan that revealed a liver met and that she was stage 4. She was told her cancer is very angry and that she needs more treatments. She has found a NP that will give her an IV antifungal.
When her cancer breaks through her skin and becomes a stinking, oozing, putrid, painful mess, she finally can rest assured that she has proved to herself that cancer is a fungas.
http://www.freewebs.com/holisticmind/apps/forums/topics/show/6690809-impositive-s-blog-experience-at-camelot-cancer-center?page=1
Here’s the blog of the 37 year old mother of 3 that is being treated by Thomas Lodi and now stage 4. This page is asking for donations because his treatment is 50 to 80 thousand dollars for 13 weeks.
http://www.fightfortrina.com/donations
Here’s her facebook page:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fight-for-Trina/113964575369583
Eye of newt, toe of frog, yeast, water…let it ferment in a large covered cauldron and you should have beer in a few weeks. I am not a brewer, but enjoy a fine beer every so often.
@ Black-cat:
Those are horrible stories!
Unfortunately, I read/ hear the *other* side of the despicable anti-SB cancer care equation- i.e. those who *sell* the idea of use-less and dangrous TIME-WASTING treatments to trusting people who are terrified of medical interventions.
These liars broadcast/ blog falsities of easy cures and natural treaments without the horrendous side effects of SB chemotherapy and radiotherapy.( Actually without ANY effects). Over the years, these same prevaricators also boasted of their successful, non-pharmaceutical cures of HIV/AIDS. Most of the ‘cured’ are now in graves or funerary urns.
Actually two of the biggest offenders ( and there are many) now enjoy web popularity as they sell supplements and ‘educational materials’ at high profit while teaching the faithful that doctors are killers.
So what can *we* do? Well, we’re doing it.
More power to you!
@Denice Walter
Re: Actually two of the biggest offenders ( and there are many) now enjoy web popularity as they sell supplements and ‘educational materials’ at high profit while teaching the faithful that doctors are killers.
Let me guess: Mike Adams and Joe Mercola
@ Black-cat:
Partially correct: Adams and Null. Mercola is right up amongst the elect bu ist not as flaming, grandiosely mad. While Adams and Mercola may have a higher number at facebook, Null serves as a clearing-house and gathering place for all manner of woo- all the slime trickles down *chez lui*.
@ Denice Walter
Null is a new one on me. Just when you thought it safe to go back into the water.
I found this youtube video of the 2nd woman.
Trina is wornoutmom on BCO. She does not mention that she is receiving Hercepton and Zometa on BCO and wants the alties to believe that Lodi with his ozone treatments, vitamin C and IPT are curing her cancer.
She has posted videos of Lodi but remains hush hush of who he is because the man and big pharma are after him. She wishes she can shout the cure throughout the world but he tellls her to keep it hush hush for now
I forgot to mention Vivre, who sells Usana and other shit on BCO and gets away with it. Here is her latest post:
I have a wonderful doctor blogging for me, who survived BC without chemo, rads or surgery. Check her out on my website.
Here is her website:
http://preventcanswers.ning.com/
Vivre is selling supplements on BCO and convincing women not to get treatment becaause conventional treatment kills.
She has been instrumental in persuading impositve and wornoutmom not to get treatment and to pursue althernatives. She is dangerous and sends personal messages to women that are stage one breast cancer even the ones that are HER2+. She scares them and sends them to her site and tries to sell them Usana.
She is also in Chicago and also advertises the antivax conventions with Christine Northrup.
Both thenewme and I have sent numerous complaints to the moderators that have just replied that Vivre just expresses that she likes usana and that’s OK.
Some of Vivre’s greatest hits on bco:
Check out this video from one of the docs I heard speak at the expo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=...
Hi all
Like Althea, I have been hangin out elsewhere lately. I just spent three days in holistic health heaven at The Health Freedom Expo in Chicago. I heard so many amazing doctors and speakers. Here are some of my favorites:
Dr. John Apsley-former Olympic swimmer hopeful who had a health crisies right before the Olympics in about 76. He had to change course and became a doctor who has studied healthy civilizations all over the world. He has a new book coming out about alternative cancer treatments.
Dr. Leonard Coldwell-An inspiring man who talked about the important of emotional healing. I got his new book “The Only Answer to Surviviing Your Illness and your Doctor”. Can’t wait to read i.
Dr. Carolyn Dean-I got an autographed copy of her book that I have had my eye on for quite a while about Magnesium.
I got to meet Marilu Henner. What a firecracker. She talked about how she finally met her soul mate, only to discover he had cancer 2 months later. She got him healthy with nurition and he is still alive, even though the doctors said there was not much they could do.
There were a lot of health freedom fighters as well. Jonathan Emord is the only lawyer who has successfully won cases against the FDA and I met folks from a non profit that I really trust, The National Health Federation, who are trying to stop the FDA’s push to get congress to regulate supplements.
You should all try to attend these events in LA or Chicago. It is a wonderful learning experience.
Also, I am looking into water distillation. PM me if you want more info.
The iodine protocol involves taking Lugols iodine or iodoral which is a tablet. The protocol must be taken with the companion nutrients of vit C, b’s, magnesium, selenium and “salt loading “. Just taking a couple of drops or painting in on will not amount to much. The best way to start is by getting dr. Brownsteins Iodine and Thyroid books. Read the books, then let me know if you have any questions.
Madpeacock-iodine helps to detoxify and kills infection. Why do you think it was a mainstay of medicine until they came out with all those other medications. Then they tried to get iodine off the shelves. It is almost impossible to find in Europe. We can’t have any cheap alternatives. We have to speak out and not allow drug companies to rule us. I am getting together with a few friends this week to mix our own lugols to save money. You can see how to make it on youtube.
Marianna-It sounds like you need to detox from the inside. Also, try fish oil. It is great for skin issues. Our skins is a picture of what is happening underneath. Your skin will clear up once you get all the toxins out. And I can identify with the appointment phobia, except that I was not worried about the outcome, I just did not want to go and argue with the doctors. So I went once and that was that. Have not been back to any doc who wanted to “monitor” me. I am not a child. I can monitor myself. I found my way to doctors who helped me to get well. Why do I want to go back to those who have nothing to offer but tests. I can get those done anywhere. And the therms give me such peace of mind, because I can see changes, which are mostly positive. (if I could j
ust clear out the damage from the friggin radiation).
GeeWhiz-try to find a doctor who specializes in hormones. Oncs usually have no clue. A great book to read is “Hormones Explained”. Dr. Raschid does a great job of explaining hormones, one of the best hormone books I have read, and I have read several. And also check your thyroid levels. For me, that was the key to hormone balance, along with diet, and as you discovered, sweating. Exercise produces serotonin and serotonin helps to produce melatonin, the sleep hormone. All of the hormones are interelated and the thryoid is the regulator of them all. That is why I could not get balanced until I addressed my hypothyroid. I do not take any medications. I just follow the iodine protocol and add supplements as needed. I also use my far infrared sauna almost everyday, which releases built up toxins and helped me to sleep again, like I use to. My girlfriend was reluctant to spend the money on one, but she finally bought one because she could not sleep and she could not believe how it has worked for her. Check out the thryoid/iodine thread for lots of information about the iodine protocol.
Althea-Have you tried oil pulling? It works better than toothsoap any day. I had a gum flare up last week. I had the mercury amalgam removed almost 2 years ago but the tooth was still very sensitive so my holistic dentist told me to keep doing the oil pulling. When I started oil pulling, after a couple of days, it drew out bacteria and I ended up with a terrible toothache. I did not want to go to my dentist right away so I just worked on it myself. I doubled my Vit C and D, brushed with my Usana toothpaste, which contains xylitol which is a great for killing bacteria, and I continued oil pulling with coconut oil, with a drop of lugol’s and a dab of honey, which is also antibacterial. I also use kyolic garlic because it is concentrated and is also antibacterial. By the next day, all the pain was gone and has not returned! Regular oil pulling can get rid of peridontal disease. I looked at the stuff that was in that dental kit and it seemed pretty expensive. Adding up all that I used, it was probably under $20. Oil pulling sounds crazy but it does work. Another thing I like is a mouthwash called Spry that is only about $5 a bottle. It too contains xylitol, no flouride and lots of other good stuff.
They don’t think.
Another strange HuffPo post has all the cancer alties dancing.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/margaret-i-cuomo-md/cancer-prevention_b_1609446.html
… I thought I’d been desensitized enough and now this comes along. You mean these people are fully aware that they are sick as hell despite all the altie treatments they’re taking, but they’ve made the choice to lie to the majority of the world to try and make people believe the altie treatments are wonderful??
I just don’t know what to say. I can sympathize with someone who perceives a conflict between keeping their integrity or keeping their life. I’m speechless at someone who chooses to pour both into the latrine in the same motion.
@ Black-cat:
To be truthful, Null’s an old one. He’s been selling nonsense disguised as health information for 40 years! He is especially well-known for his ‘exposes’ of the cancer industry ( which appeared in an American skin mag) and preaching the gospel of ozone, mega- doses of vitamin C and coffee enemas. He is an HIV/AIDS denialist and works hard to frighten people away from SB treatments and medical expertise.
A good intro to his brand of crankery would be Quackwatch and Wikipedia. Also lee-phillips.org. Orac, Dr Novella and others wrote about his poisoning by his own supplements. He has two websites : Gary Null.com and the Progressive Radio Network.com . Yes, his own internet radio station to broadcast dangerous health mis-information and sell his products. He has influenced many younger alt meddlers and provides a platform for woo of all stripes as well as political and philosophical dabblers.
@ Antaeus:
That sounds like some of the postergirls for HIV/AIDS denialism- correction, the *now deceased* postergirls.
Antaeus — I think it’s because pride is such a hard thing to let go of. They are willing to lie because it’s better than admitting the truth. They are likely lying to themselves as well, or they’re figuring that yeah, they’re not okay now, but pretty soon they’ll turn the corner, and the lies will be true. It’s not lies. It’s . . . anticipatory truth. Yeah. That’s it.
It’d be great material for a classic tragedy.
@Antaeus Feldspar
They all do it, even Kim Tinkum never mentioned on twitter or her blog that Robert O Youngs treatment failed her. Chilli is still an MLMer and has an altie blog that does not mention how sick she is.
Wornoutmom (trina) is getting zometa and herceptin from a real medical facility now and than goes to Oasis of Hope. She still posts on BCO that she is healing herself with her alternative regiman.
@Calli Arcale
All 3 women believe that alternatives will cure them of stage 4 cancer. and will blame themselves when death is immiment. It will be easy for Trina because she had to scale down her treatments due to not raising enough funds. I am sure Lodi will be pointing the finger.
@Denise Walter
Now I remember who Gary Null is. He’s the same one that overdosed on his own vitamin D supplements. The BCO alties love him and are always posting podcasts.
@ Black-cat:
I suggest you read about Null @ Quackwatch, Wikipedia, lee-phillips.org, RI, SBM so you might have concise repartee for his faithful. He discourages mammograms and SB treatments for breast cancer while encouraging supplements, diets and other nonsense. His gross earnings are in the vicinity of 10 million USD a year ( spoke.com; manta.com)
I’m a psychologist so OBVIOUSLY I wouldn’t EVER diagnose anyone but I suggest that you listen to some of his rants or read his writing and decide for yourself how sound of mind he is. He is a nasty piece of work who likes to sue his critics as Dr Phillips and Wikipedia learned ( both cases thrown out of court).
I am fortunately, a very cautious person.
@Denise Walter
Thanks for the heads up. I will check out Null tonight. He appeals to the older women on BCO. They gush over how healthy, and younger than his age he looks. They think he’s a real dish. He has quite a following over there and I am sure they line his pockets.
10 million a year is sickening. If he is counseling against mammograms, he must be into thermagrams. I did get a good laugh out of Null overdosing on supplements.
My training is in paramedic and nursing. My goal was to get a dual nurse practionar and physicians assistant license and continue working in emergency.
Luckily, the prereqs of micro, physiology, anatomy, and chem gave me a basic science knowledge and allowed me not to fall for quackery when I was diagnosed with breast cancer.
I was diagnosed stage 3C, inflammatory breast cancer. It’s a very nasty, rare, and fast growing cancer and it is virtually undetectable on memmograms until stage 3 or 4. It grows in sheets through the skin.
It was quite a shock and I was overwhelmed with information on the type of chemos that I was going to have and radiation. My radiation oncologist told me that I needed to have a much higher dose than normal and let me know the real nasty side effects that I could have later on in life. Even with all this nasty treatment, I was given a 40% five year survival rate and a 30% 10 year survival rate. I was a basket case and needed anxiety medication and medication to sleep. I understand why the alties go into a fantasy world when someone tells them they have the cure. No breast cancer has a 100% certain cure rate.
Next week will be year 3 for me and time for another PET/CAT. If I am cancer free I am told my 5 year survival stats will go up.
I worked with impositive for 2 years to no avail. I looked up her stats on cancer math and her stage one cancer with treatment gave her an 85% cure rate. That wasnt good enough for her. She needed 100% cure guarentee and she went to quacks that would give it to her. Someone just sent me her blog along with Trina’s blog. When I read that impositive is now stage four it was like someone kicked me in the gut. I’m just numb and angry now. I would have given my eye teeth to trade diagnoses with her as would all of the women on BCO that were stage 4 from the get go. She went from stage 1 to stage 4 in two years. Trina had a 50% cure rate and she dropped it down to zero also. She was diagnosed stage 3 at 36 years of age and at stage 4 at 37 years of age.
I think I am done with the alties of BCO. I have pulled all the stops and they won’t listen to reason. I’m hated and resented there. I even told them that I was going to be a quack and make lots of money. An alite asked me what is the difference between an alternative practionar becoming rich or an oncologist becoming rich. I told her oncologists are not rich and they have to work for a living.
I posted this on how easy it would be to be a rich quack:
All valid scientific evidence presented against pseudoscience will be met with opposition and bizarre rationalizations. Vague and/or poorly documented anecdotes will be presented as concrete evidence that this specific woo can cure cancer by those who have a profound misunderstanding of basic science. Much of the evidence presented, will have some paragraphs poached from an intro to physiology, general, organic or biochem, or microbiology textbook for college freshman. This can be text, charts or diagrams. The only alterations will be whatever the woo du jour is being presented. This way it sounds all sciency and makes sense to those that would fail a high school biology or chem class.
I could be a very rich woo meister. It really would not take much effort. There would be very little overhead to get started and to maintain my woo business. I would appeal to the anti-science and the anti-intellectual crowd. I’ll have thousands of marks, er, uh, I mean customers.
I’ll just have to pay a web designer, get me some introduction to life science books, and of course empty capsules from the health food store, which I will fill with powdered sugar. Hey, I don’t even have to invest in powdered sugar. I could just fill the capsule with tap water and claim a homeopathy cure. Yea, that’s the ticket! If someone mentions Avogadro’s number it will just fall on deaf ears. My customers will just fold their arms in defiance and point out my sciency sounding paragraphs as concrete proof that my bogus remedy cures every disease known to man. Of course they don’t know that I poached those paragraphs from an intro to physiology book and interlaced them with a few poorly written paragraphs on my miracle cure. Hell, I’m too lazy to write paragraphs. I’ll just doctor up some of the sentences and change the wording to make it look like it’s all about my miracle cure. My highly gullible customers won’t have enough of a science background to figure it out. That quack Brownstein does it all the time and gets away with it.
I’ll make up some claims that my super duper capsules might cure cancer, Parkinson’s, dementia, shingles, HIV, lock jaw, malaria, depression, and whatever else ails ya.
I’ll have to put in a quack miranda warning, of course:
rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quack_Mi…
Damn the FDA. Damn them. They are evil through and through. Satan is alive and well and here on earth people. He has manifested himself as the FDA.
Of course ORAC will take me down in his blog and quackwatch.org will try to deconstruct my medical breakthrough and say it’s pseudoscience. I’m not worried. By the time they get wind of what I am doing I will have a big altie following and will have made lots of money. I’ll just tell my altie fans that they are really BIG PHARMA in disguise and they are the quacks. That’s all I have to do is mention big pharma trying to keep a good altie down and it’s back to business.
It’s such a shame that I have ethics. I could be such a good quack
They didn’t get it.
I’m not shocked by someone who is very sick but insists to others that they’re actually doing very well on this or that altie treatment; it’s sad, but people have an incredible capacity to delude themselves. If they say “The Schmuck protocol is healing me wonderfully! What’s that? Oh, my intense projectile vomiting that follows each Schmuck supplement? That’s just herxing; I’m actually expelling the toxins that way!” I think they’re grossly deluded but I believe that they really believe it.
But from what you said, it sounded like these patients claim to other patients “I’m in great health! I don’t have any of those horrible symptoms that chemo would give me, like fatigue and vomiting!” and then have private blogs where they say “Oh my God, my fatigue and vomiting is getting worse, but I can’t tell that to anyone outside this private blog, because then they might think the Schmuck treatment isn’t working or is as bad side-effect-wise as chemo.” That intentional deception is what shocks me. Self-deception is an unfortunate fact of the human psyche, but that level of intentional deception is something else again.
@Heliantus
That was thoughtful.
“But at the individual level, most of them are innocent, unless you count believing in weird stuff as a crime.”
I think there’s a mushy border. Believers become exponents, raising the propagation of woo to a (fractionally) higher power.
btw, how does one get updates on this blog? I didn’t see that there was a response to my comment until I re-opened the thread and searched within the page.
@ Black-cat:
Your diagnosis and treatments are certainly not the easiest burden for you to bear; you remind me a bit of a guy who was diagnosed HIV+, accepted SB treatment and became a great ( and hilarious) critic of HIV/AIDS denialists: he also has a background in medicine/ biology.
About *le grand idiot*- I saw the creature live, giving a lecture. He is profoundly un-attractive- in both appearance and manner. I wanted to question his credentials : he trotted right over to yours truly and asked if I had a question, I shot back, “Not about HEALTH!” and he trotted away. I did not persist because he was surrounded by scads of groupies- more than 100 strong- ready, willing and able to defend their master. Why these people think he is ‘hot’ is a total mystery to me. Looks aren’t the most important thing BUT when you claim to have found the fountain of youth and sell admission tickets to it, they are a variable to be considered. Especially when you maintain that you are able to reverse the greying of hair and sport an obviously bad dye job.
At any rate, take care, hang with us, we f@cking rock.
@Antaeus Feldspar-
“That intentional deception is what shocks me. Self-deception is an unfortunate fact of the human psyche, but that level of intentional deception is something else again.”
BINGO. And *THAT* describes in a nutshell my biggest problem with breastcancer.org. That deception is not only allowed, but encouraged.
I went to Trina’s blog. She has not posted in a month/.Her choice of ITP is lauded as heroic at bco with nary a mention that she goes to a real clinic for Zometa and Herceptin, The rhetoric over there gets old and blackcat and thenewme should be the ones laudes for their work to try and show that the Emperor has no clothes. The powers that be at breastcancer.org seem to just want to generate traffic. The site is run by two MDs who should know better
Protocel. is only one of the quack remedies that are pushed.
Speaking of bogus cancer clinics, did you know there’s a trade show every Labour Day where all the quacks in Tijuana come to a hotel in L.A. looking for new business? There is even a non-profit organization called Cancer Control Society that runs bus tours to Tijuana so cancer patients and their families can get the sales pitch directly? It includes Gerson, Hoxsey, places that use laetrile, sound and light therapy, etc.
I found about this film on the Quackometer site. Yes, it’s from Al Jazeera TV but it’s well done. A British journalist went undercover and checked out a couple of these clinics in Mexico. It’s an easy 25 minutes to watch and is especially interesting seen from the point of view of the people going on these trips looking for miracles. Also to hear from a real Mexican oncologist who seems embarassed by his country’s reputation for quackery. He calls it predatory.
http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/peopleandpower/2012/01/2012111152415164558.html
Read the text version too, as it includes additional information not in the film. These cancer clinics are licensed as hospices intended to care for people in their last days, not to administer any treatments. Most places will not give you anything in writing, just a lot of promises and smiles when you fork over your $23000 cash, in advance.
And one of these hospitals (where Martin Luther King’s wife died) is run by a guy named Kurt Donsbach who has been pretending to be a doctor and selling tainted and useless supplements for 50 years. Quite a story.
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/donsbach.html
I must have hit a nerve with Wayan who has the black salve site because he posted a response to me:
This is from Maud at BCO:
have taken a much needed break from this site but see that nothing improves nor changes. The skeptics who haunt BCO are very active on multiple threads and actually giving this site an extremely bad reputation, i.e. Chili’s own caretakers wrote a response to the skeptics’ comments
Response to breastcancer.org and YouTube viewers, from website author
http://www.blacksalveindonesia.org/PR...
Word spreads like wildfire on the net – I would think that BCO would be highly concerned with its reputation and therefore prohibit members of certain organizations from posting on this site.
Her link does not seem to be working. Here is Wayans miracle cure:
http://www.blacksalveindonesia.org/PROFibuL.htm
I have emailed wayan and given him this link and asked him to respond.
Vivre, from BCO, has just declared that she knows a doctor that has just cured her breast cancer with black salve and has posted it on her web site.
Never mind that Vivre is an MLMer and is a health freedom fighter.
Jun 20, 2012 10:37 AM vivre wrote:
I have a wonderful doctor blogging for me, who survived BC without chemo, rads or surgery. Check her out on my website.
http://preventcanswers.ning.com/video/black-salve-fact-or-fiction
http://preventcanswers.ning.com/video/black-salve-and-breast-cancer
OK, Wayan, you have obviously have heard about my posts on BCO not believing that you have the cancer cure in black salve.
You posted a reply that I call Mrs. L ‘s husband who could speak english. The problem with this is that anybody could pretend to be Mrs. L’s husband.
Wayan, I would love to talk about your black salve pictues.
Let’s look at the first one. What did you do to get those bruises on her breast…smack her around some?
that second one is not stage 4 breast cancer..
Chillipadi= Carol Chua
Singapore
Neways Distributor
http://www.healingpastures.com
Vivre (BCO) = Linda Memmesheimer
Linda Memmesheimer
http://www.preventcanswers.org
“Think Beyond The Pink”
chicagonow.com/blogs/look-whos-walking
also was “FEB” and “LindaMem” on BCO
[email protected]
http://www.healthfreedomdvds.com/store/detail.php?id=DVD-11CH225
http://www.facebook.com/ThinkBeyondThePink
LauraGTO = Laura
Username “chestnut” on preventcanswers.org
One of the regulars on http://www.breastcanswers.org (an unbelievably hateful pro Republican, anti-Obama/anti-Democrat site)
Good friend of Linda Memmesheimer/Vivre – helped to create preventcanswers (?)
Dunesleeper (BCO)
Charlene Clark
“Freedom From Fascism” conspiracy site (http://student.ccbcmd.edu/~cclar568/freedomNow.html”
http://topsy.com/twitter/dunesleeper
https://twitter.com/#!/dunesleeper
These are just a few people on the altie boards of BCO with an agenda. There are more.
I am reading Chili’s blog which someone sent me today. She has not edited it and this part just really stands out to me:
http://www.neways.com.my/user/carolchua/
Instead of conventional treatments for cancer, I chose to make radical changes to my life (as above) and I also embarked on metabolic therapy to keep cancer at bay (more on this at my blog healingpastures.com). The metabolic protocol I followed utilised some potent Neways health supplements, amongst other things, to defeat the disease. Many other cancer fighters have done this program.
My tumor marker tests show that I’m in good health. All my organs are clear and my oncologist even says that I’m healthier that most people – including himself! My doctor can’t understand why I’m in such good shape, as I’m not depending on the vast knowledge of the medical profession, billions of dollars of technology, and a never-ending line of “promising” drugs. All the same elements which have failed to prevent cancer and save growing legions of victims.
Do your own research and come to your own conclusions. You’ve only got one body, and it’s under attack from Day 1. We are the product of our choices so, please, choose wisely.
Right after my husband and I did our own research, we started looking
Chili’s Blog
http://www.neways.com.my/user/carolchua/
Instead of conventional treatments for cancer, I chose to make radical changes to my life (as above) and I also embarked on metabolic therapy to keep cancer at bay (more on this at my blog healingpastures.com). The metabolic protocol I followed utilised some potent Neways health supplements, amongst other things, to defeat the disease. Many other cancer fighters have done this program.
My tumor marker tests show that I’m in good health. All my organs are clear and my oncologist even says that I’m healthier that most people – including himself! My doctor can’t understand why I’m in such good shape, as I’m not depending on the vast knowledge of the medical profession, billions of dollars of technology, and a never-ending line of “promising” drugs. All the same elements which have failed to prevent cancer and save growing legions of victims.
Do your own research and come to your own conclusions. You’ve only got one body, and it’s under attack from Day 1. We are the product of our choices so, please, choose wisely.
Right after my husband and I did our own research, we started looking
Blackcat
As a regular poster at Breastcancer.org, I think I know the answer but have you presented the moderators with these facts?
@Rose
The person I got this information from has presented it to the mods many times. She has saved all emails and replys. The brain dead mods tell her that these people are just expressing their opinions and that is OK.
Vivre and her ilk frequently PM new members who are newly diagnosed and that are early stage. They try to scare them off chemo and rads for their agenda which is selling them supplements and involving them in their political causes. ie. health freedom fighters
The majority of these women including Vivre have had treatment and claimed that they should have cured themselves naturally, if only they had known. They are on a mission to save others from “toxic treatments”
There ae others like Lucy88 that probably never had breast cancer. She’s involved with bcaction.org and maybe some other weird orgs that we can’t prove yet. She’s pretty quiet on the boards about her cause but she’s constantly fear mongering and asking others to pm her for more information.
I don’t know if she’s an MLMer but it would not surprise me if she is.
Lucy88 lists no cancer stats but claims she’s a librarian. She has been spreading psuedoscience for years by claiming that she meets regualrly with a group of PHD’s who are breast cancer researchers and that is where she’s getting her top secret information that chemo and rads kill. The alties buy this hook, line and sinker.and treat her like some kind of guru as they do Vivre.
Lucy’s av of an older woman on a surfboard cracks me up. She surfs in to spread her psuedoscience and always anounces that she has to go because “surfs up”
Only surfer posers and wannabes say “surfs up” My mother says the term is from the old Gidget hollywood movies.
I picture Lucy as some old crone working in a public library somewhere in the midwest.
I noticed that she has not brought up her PHD cancer researcher friends ever since I made the statement that her imaginary iodine guzzling PHD strudy group would fail a high school biology quiz.
@Rose
This is my latest email from the mods:
If you can’t post respectful posts, perhaps you could just ignore the Alt threads?
Please understand that this is truly not acceptable.
The Mods
They are more concerned with the traffic and numerous alties have threatened to leave the threads. Kind of like, “it’s her or us.” I have also been accused of stalking and being disrespectful to Vivre and Lucy88.
On BCO everybody has a right to that opinion and you are not permitted to challange the validity of that opinion esp. if it promotes dangerous misinformation.
My ban is lifted. You can PM me if you wish.
Black-cat
I will PM you. Some newbie with HER2+ cancer is being told to try MMS and DMSO by zuvart. My mommy told me not to mess with chemicals I didn’t know anything about.
On that note, an oldie:
Little Willie was a chemist
Little Willie is no more
For what he thought was H2O was H2SO4.
Weird nursery rhymes when I was growing up, eh?
Rose,
I tried to respond to your pm on BCO but got a message that I am now banned from sending pms. I don’t know why because I rarely send pms and the ones that I send are usually responses back to those that pm me. You can pm thenewme on that site for my email address.
Zuvart has spun herself right off of this planet. I don’t know if she has an agenda or if she’s just stupid.
I HAVE A LIST OF PEOPLE CLAIMING THEY HAVE BEEN CURED BY PROTOCEL,AND I AM ABOUT TO BUY SOME FOR MY WIFE WHO HAS TERMINAL LUNG CANCER,WHAT SHOULD I DO ? TRY IT OR NOT
I LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR REPLY
@John,
Protocal is a scam. Read Orac’s blog above. Cantron, CanCell and Entelev are other names for Protocal.
@John
Protocel is NOT a scam. It works. The National Cancer Institute tested Cancell in 1990-91 and their test results showed that Cancell did great against all cancers tested, in some cases resulting in 100% cancer cell death. Of course, they don’t say that on their website, where they lie about the results, but the graphs and charts tell the truth—Cancell worked, not only stopping the growth of cancers but killing cancer cells as well. I have much information in my Facebook album which you can see at:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.109225998965.93145.604043965&type=3&l=dcadbc1843
I wish you the best.
John
Mr. Luce has obviously not bothered to read my post very carefully, as I addressed that issue by pointing out that the effects observed in vitro were only observed at concentrations way higher than what could be reasonably expected to achieved in the blood:
Only someone who knows nothing about cancer research would claim that Cantron/Protocell or whatever you want to call it works.
Your response amazes me. You surely saw the test results with the graphs and chart. You saw the near 100% death of cancer cells in many of the tests and you explain it away. If there had been NO such good results, you would have said the test results prove it doesn’t work. So, now, the good results mean nothing. Damned if you do, and damned if you don’t.
The quote from the NCI is full of weasel words and baseless assumptions—“There is little evidence…” What evidence do they have to the contrary? The “in vitro effects are likely due to…” trying to explain them away, yet without any proof of that baseless assumption. “do not truly mimic the in vivo situation” So what? Why do in vitro at all in the first place? The “results obtained [must be good ones to have to explain them away]…may not accurately reflect possible effects in humans.” They say that and wouldn’t care if the results were poor. So, why didn’t they pursue it with human clinical trials, to see if the good results “accurately reflect possible effects in humans”? Maybe I know nothing about cancer research, as you say, but I can read graphs and charts and see good results when they’re there. And so did Dr. Narayanan, who thought that Cancell had to be toxic to get results that good.
Your problem is that you are so full of pride that you would never concede something like Cancell or Protocel worked even if it saved your own mother from a painful death from conventional chemo and radiation. Have you ever in your life said the words, “I’m wrong”? Do you even think it’s possible?
@John J Luce
No maybe about it. Vodka will kill 100% of cancer cells in a petri dish. With regard to graphs and charts, they are very easy to make up to fool the gullible.
Well, by God, I hope so! Anyone who says “There are NO good results, therefore it obviously DOES work” would be a fool.
Where you go wrong is in believing that “SOME good results” means “obviously does work EVEN under the difficult conditions which is where we NEED it to work.”
Think of it like car racing. If Bobby Thunderfoot wants to drive the PowerMax Spark Plugs car in the Coogan Bluffs 500, he’s got to do a time trial first. That time trial is conducted under conditions much more favorable to him than the actual race: He only has to do ten laps, not the full 500, and he’s the only car on the track.
Now, his performance in the time trial may be good enough that they say “He can go in the actual race, and then we’ll see if he’s still good when he has all the other cars to deal with and when he’s driving for fifty times as long.” OR IT MAY NOT. Bobby Thunderfoot’s time in the trials may sound impressive when there’s no basis given for comparison, but if there’s only room for forty cars in the race and Bobby’s time ISN’T within the forty fastest, he’s not getting in. And all of Bobby’s fans who growl “Why, those cheating race officials! If he hadn’t finished the time trials, they’d have kept him out of the race, but look, he did finish the time trials and they STILL kept him out!” are just showing they don’t understand what they’re arguing about. There’s no cheating going on, just elimination of those who didn’t make the cut.
[…] at least try to appear to). Recently, I noted that a particularly nasty form of cancer quackery, Cantron, is making the rounds. Then, of course, Stanislaw Burzynski’s “antineoplastons” […]
@Militant Agnostic
“With regard to graphs and charts, they are very easy to make up to fool the gullible.”
Good grief, M.A.— WHO “made up” the graphs and charts here? James Sheridan? It was the NCI who made them. The only “gullible” ones here are the ones who believe the NCI’s attempts to explain away the good test results. I find it interesting that Dr. Narayanan didn’t come up with any of that. All he said was that Cancell had to be toxic to get results as good as that. He didn’t say…way too high concentration … or, did not truly mimic in vivo situation… or, nonspecific effects of changes in salt concentration (whatever that means) … or, any of the other B.S. the NCI came up with. If it were a new chemo drug and not Cancell you would all be dancing around the room when you saw those results. But your religious-like beliefs AGAINST Cancell do not allow you to do that, so you accuse anyone who wants to celebrate Cancell’s good test results as “gullible.” The next thing you will be saying is that the NCI must have slipped vodka into the petri dishes to make Cancell look so good so it could fool gullible people like me into believing Cancell did so well, but then, of course, explain away those good results without disclosing the vodka. Give me a break!
@ Antaeus Feldspar
“Where you go wrong is in believing that “SOME good results” means “obviously does work EVEN under the difficult conditions which is where we NEED it to work.”
So, you finally admit there WERE “SOME good results.” We may be making progress here. And, yes, “where we NEED it to work” is not just in a petri dish but in human trials…which never happened, probably because the NCI refused to do any further studies. But, admit it, at the initial in vitro testing phase Cancell should NOT have been eliminated as a treatment that “didn’t make the cut.”
@ Militant Agnostic:
Therefore, vodka for everyone!
A young woman used to live next door to me and she concocted killer vodka drinks- especially Cosmopolitans- so altho’ I am partial to gin,** I occasionally partake.
** an ancestor of mine made lovely gin and sold his formulae long ago.
Another thing that should be remembered is that Cancell is non-toxic. At higher concentrations it actually is LESS effective, so when it was killing 90 to 100% of the cancer cells it was at its second from lowest concentrations. When you factor that into a comparison with conventional toxic chemos that can damage the liver, kidney, and heart, Cancell would be a leg-up on all the other drugs making it into human trials. So, studies of Cancell should definitely have proceeded to the next level.
So, Cancell never made it into human trials, except the thousands of humans who tried it on their own and astonished their oncologists with amazing results, including being declared cancer-free, not for just 5 years but for decades. Elonna McKibben had a malignant tumor on her spinal cord while pregnant with quintuplets. After giving birth, she was diagnosed and told she would not live to see her babies’ first birthday. Two years on Cancell resulted in her being cured of her cancer. Her children are in their twenties today and Elonna is still alive and cancer-free. She took NO conventional chemo or radiation, which she was told would have left her a paraplegic until she died. Instead she tried Cancell, nothing but Cancell, and she is cured.
Now, that sort of story should excite you if you really care about helping people with cancer. But if you doggedly and stubbornly hold to your cut/poison/burn paradigm and make fun of successful treatments like Cancell/Protocel, you will never help anyone. Swallow your pride and take an honest look at the results, and BELIEVE the good test results are no accident. The stuff REALLY WORKS!!!
Mr. Luce:
Only the first part is the quote, this is not:
It does not take “belief”, but data. If you think it works, then provided the verifiable evidence. Just post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show the “stuff really works” in Phase 2 or 3 clinical trials.
In addition, ask yourself why there have been no human trials.
@Mr Luce: How about :Citation needed. Are you willing to post Ms McKibben’s complete medical records? Do you even HAVE them? Can you prove her story?
We are skeptics, and you are not helping your cause by either mis-reading or mis-interpreting what others say.
Are you aware that Orac IS a breast cancer surgeon, one who does actual research (and publishes his research for review and others to test to see if he’s right or wrong – the true meaning of research)? Are you aware that he HAS had family members die of breast cancer and that he would have given all he had to save them?
Are you aware of what others are saying? That to achieve serum levels that would work like the in vitro testing, the drug would have to be at toxic levels? Remember that in vitro just means something works in a petri dish. Tap water will kill some cancer cells in a petri dish, for heaven’s sake! The PROOF of something working is human testing.
Please read what Orac says (and he even addressed the comment to you – did you even READ it???): There is little evidence that any of the constituents of Cancell/Cantron/Protocel would be available in the bloodstream of a patient in significant concentrations after its ingestion. Activity was seen in two-thirds of the cell lines, though at levels that would be roughly 275 times higher than the theoretical maximum concentration achievable in serum. Therefore, the in vitro effects are likely due to nonspecific effects of changes in salt concentration. Furthermore, cells in the NCI Tumor Cell Line Screen are grown in artificial media under conditions that do not truly mimic the in vivo situation in animals or humans, and that results obtained with the screen may not accurately reflect possible effects in humans. To place the findings for Cancell/Cantron/Protocel in perspective any conventional drug exhibiting this low level of in vitro activity in the NCI human cancer cell line screen would normally not be investigated further by NCI.
Graphs and charts are lovely. Orac has often done a wonderful job interpreting them for the layman. But you have to remember the difference between “in vitro” and “in vivo”….
Mr. Luce, often you will see folks trying to sell “laetrile” as a cancer drug. Yes, it killed cells in a petri dish (in vitro), and they did try it on humans (in vivo). They had to stop because the main active ingredient is cyanide, and the patients were getting poisoned.
Yet, people still try to sell it as a cancer drug, often calling it “Vitamin B-17.” There are case reports in PubMed on cyanide poisoning from people trying it, and the apricot pits that is often sold as a “natural cancer cure” (they are full of cyanide, they are “bitter almonds”, regular edible almonds actually come from non-toxic apricot varieties).
Mr. Luce, go to you closest public library and check out the book The Emperor of All Madadies, it is about the history of cancer treatments.
Check out Elonna’s deluded, unintentionally hilarious website here:
http://www.elonnamckibben.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49&Itemid=63
It’s full of religious garbage and thanking the lord for miracles, biblical quotes ,etc. etc.
So was it the magical syrup she took or her lord saving her? If prayer is enough why does anyone have to spend $500 every 20 days for this crap that someone cooks up in his basement on a hotplate?
Mr. Luce, you must be a shill for Protocell. How much do you get paid for promoting this dangerous, useless garbage?
Why is the Christian aspect so vital to this stuff, as well as MMS? Elonna’s website says that Sheridan was a Christian and that Protocell was provided by god as part of a “program”. He dreamed about a rainbow and saw the healing potential in the colours, or some nonsense like that. all due to a gift from above, of course.
This Protocell testimonial is from a faith healing website. Note this man had both surgery and chemo before trying the Protocell, but it was god who healed him.
http://www.believeinhishealing.com/
(Of course they also sell Protocell…)
Does that mean Protocell doesn’t work on Jews, Muslims or atheists, etc? Why do I have to believe in a sky fairy for a medicine to work? And if your god wanted to cure you from cancer, why did he give you cancer in the first place?
Sorry to rant, but the quackery combined with the religious mumbo-jumbo makes me angry.
@ Marc Stephens Is Insane:
If you look into woo, you’ll discover that deep within its swampish muck, there is the germ of spirit- in fact, I have my own law stating this.
Because they cannot base their claims in material reality, investigated by standard research that produces data, they have to go elsewhere, so there’ll be talk of energy, spirit, soul, chakras, essence, a higher reality and suchlike. A few days ago, MIke Adams linked the Higgs, Consciousness and the Deity all in one fell swoop.
Here is a “Protocell-cures-breast-cancer” alternative healing site that will infuriate the breast cancer quackery watchers like Black-cat, thenewme, rose, and of course our host Orac.
I linked to one page but check out the rest of the pages.
http://www.thebreaststaysput.com/
It looks like all these Protocell sites are linked to each other. There seems to be five or six perosnal testimonial sites out there, all printing the exact same lies and misinformation. Like Jim Sheridan was a “coal minor”. Maybe when he grew up he became a coal major.
Denice,
The energy and spirit stuff I understand, but people of all faiths can relate to that. Some of the worst (i.e. most extreme) new-agers I know are Jewish. But I’m talking specifically about Christianity and belief in Jesus. That’s a recurring theme on all the Protocell sites, and they all emphasize that Jim Sheridan was a Christian. So what? Who cares? If the stuff works, his god should be irrelevant. And that he dreamt it up, literally, up in a dream after god showed him a rainbow, well, sheesh.
Jim Humble, Mr. MMS, also claims that god gave him the formula to MMS. His fake church just makes that veneer a little thicker, the same scam L. Ron Hubbard pulled when he started called Scientology a religion.
So it seems a non-believer, or a Jew, or Muslim, would automatically be out of the running to be helped by Protocell. Pretty silly of their marketing departments to limit their clientele to one particular religious group.
I was able to confirm that a McKibben set of quintuplets does exist. The birthdate is off by one month between the source I found and the McKibben website, but I believe the list of worldwide quint births contains a misprint, as I found a newspaper article that is dated two days after the date she indicated on her website.. (The newspaper story has little more information than that, citing the father’s request for privacy.) Quintuplets are big enough news that that part is usually easy to check. The rest, of course, we have to take her word for.
@ Marc Stephens Is Insane:
Right. However, I think that by positioning himself within a ceratin sector of the Christian community, he’ll get plenty of clients because of this specialisation- just like car or clothing manufacturers aim their products at certain types of clients- sporty, lush or business-oriented.
I guess so…but here’s a scenario: I’m a non-Christian woman who is prone to woo. I’m researching “alternative” breast cancer cures and find all the Protocell sites I linked to above. As a non-Christian I’d be so turned off at all the bibilical and Jesus references I’d run as fast and far away as I could (and probably end up on some baking soda site…) They seem to alientating a certain segment of their market, but as you said, it could also work in thier favour. A Christian woo-seeker who is shopping for quackery might be “wooed” by the Jesus stuff and choose to waste her money on Protocell instead of Burzynski, for example.
It reminds me of a guy I knew years ago who wanted help for his drinking but refused to go to AA because of their insistence on believe in god. I think that’s a tenet of all 12-step programs. He was a devout non-believer and it turned him off AA. He did get better eventuallym by the way, and is fine today. And still a non-believer.
Ignore all the typos and missing words. I see them and know how to spell “their”. It’s such a pain to proofread and correct without the old “preview” function.
Exactly. in the US, Christians are a very definite majority; even if most of them aren’t fundies, the ones who’d be interested in Protocell are more likely to be (since they’re also the ones likely to be interested in faith healing). So what if they’re turning off non-Christians and moderate Christians? Faith healers make *billions* off of gullible fundamentalists; this is just latching on to that. In short, they’re turning off a section of the market that they’re not that interested in anyway.
@Marc – you’re right! It’s infuriating!! I do think the protocel shills are all linked. The one on BCO refers to Outsmart Your Cancer, outsmartyourcancer.com , written by a real piece of work by the name of Tanya Harter Pierce, who says:
“Regarding Protocel. Even though I devote more written space and testimonies to the Protocel approach than any other, that does NOT mean I believe it is necessarily the best choice for every case. Many remarkable recoveries in my book are from people using Cesium High pH Therapy, The Flaxseed Oil and Cottage Cheese Approach, Burzynski’s Antineoplastons, Dr. Kelley’s Enzyme Therapy, or other powerful alternative treatments.
There are MANY ways to cure cancer through non-toxic methods, and no single approach is better than all the others for every case.
I merely devote more space to Protocel because my book happens to be the leading book in print about it, and an important part of my mission is to help inform the public of this relatively unknown yet powerful approach!”
Gee, silly me! I suffered the whole conventional slash/burn/poison routine, when I could have just used this miracle cure?? Gah.
Here’s another religious/woo Protocel site, called The Creator’s Cure. I haven’t Googled this Bill Henderson guy yet. At first I thought it was a cannabis site, but the green leaves are only there to invoke the “naturalness” of the place.
In this case Protocel was used to treat lung cancer. Of course the patient underwent dozens of medical interventions as well. God was along for the ride, of course.
Here are some choice nuggets:
Here. check out all the fun for yourself:
http://www.thecreatorscure.com/index.html
thenewme:
They all have books to sell. And they all link to Protocel suppliers. Shills! Follow the money! (See what I did there?)
thenewme (and any others interested in BC woo):
I’d love your opinion of this breast cancer patient’s testimonial for Protocel. Again, she underwent surgery. Am i missing something?
http://www.thecreatorscure.com/Breast_Cancer.html
@Marc
Red flag #1 – her docs told her they got “99.9% of the cancer out.” As far as I know, that’s not the way it’s done! For me and for every breast cancer surgery I’ve heard of, they talk about margins – whether they’re clear or not (and by how many millimeters). If a margin is positive or “dirty,” I don’t think they’d know whether it’s .1% of the total amount! Of course Orac can correct me if I’m mistaken.
Red flags #2 (and #3, ad nauseam)…
Unless blatantly negligent and ripe for malpractice, docs don’t “assure” someone that their cancer will return after lumpectomy and lymph node removal. They don’t “assure” you that a swollen node is breast cancer just by feel. They don’t remove “all” your lymph nodes even if one or more are diagnostically proven to be malignant. Breast cancer tumor measurements from imaging studies prior to surgery are notoriously inaccurate, so her claims about her tumor size are nonsense. Ugh. Websites like this make me sick. It’s a good thing I’m not an FDA shill. I’d probably get fired for my harsh treatment of cancer quacks. I’d throw ’em all in jail and have them practice their treatments on each other.
@Marc
Bill Henderson is another quackster mentioned frequently on BCO, where people are raving about his great “regime:” http://www.beating-cancer-gently.com/
@ Marc Stephens Is Insane:
Christian woo-slingers ( like those you cite above) cast their nets to a narrower audience- altho’ it might be the majority in their own society ; some of those I survey speak of a more generalised spirituality or soul-endowedness, unlike the narrow-casters, they do not discriminate on the basis of religion, ethnicity or national origin- everyone’s money is alright.
They even attempt to draw in people who aren’t very religious but ascribe to a New Age-y mentality that could encompasse ideas like environmentalism, world citizenship, Gaia-ness, Ancient Culture-itis, Eastern Mysteries and other curiosities. So whether you think the New Age will be birthed in Glastonbury**, Malibu or Tibet they have something for you.
For a sample, read Mike Adams’ writing on Wedenesday @ Natural News about Consciousness, the Higgs and g-d.
** what I’ve heard recently, believe it or not!
Why not? I’ve seen absolutely no evidence that Cancell outperformed any other treatment which did make “the cut”; certainly you have not provided any such evidence.
Where did Mr. John J. Luce go?
@Marc Stephens Is Insane:
I agree with thenewme. As far as the breast cancer testamonial, there is not enough information. Also, women with slow growing indolent tumors can look and feel healthy for years before their downfall. Just ask Kim Tinkhum. Oh wait, she’s dead. My bad.
Re:Well… it looks like one of the BCO stalkers has been here looking for information about who we are and how some of us are doing.
This person, who harrassed “altie” ladies at BCO until she was asked to leave that board, has found refuge at last in the comments section of Orac’s blog, where she posts everything she has been able to find out about the lives and personal identities of people she doesn’t like. Check out the second half of the comments on this page; she starts ranting around June 19, 4:44 pm. She starts naming names on June 20, 6:24 pm, ostensibly because she “cares” so much. For shame! The page is https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2012/06/19/cantron-not-curing-cancer-since-the-1930s/.
Here, in the comments of this page, on December 13, 2011, 10:40 pm, she tries to recruit help to invade the alt board at BCO and “save lives”. https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2011/12/13/nccam-in-the-news/ ; and December 23, 2011, 4:57 am in https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2011/12/21/steven-best-and-negotiation-is-over-clos/
Isn’t she quite the little bully? (BC if you are reading – shame on you!)
Seriously, you are that stupid? I am not the enemy you dumb sh*t. Impositive is now stage 4 and still thinks cancer is a fungas and so do you. You are encouraging her on to a very painful death. Read Orac’s blog’s and quackwatch on Robert O Young.
Cancer is not a fungas. That FNP giving her an intervenous anti fungal should be arrested. All of those quacks at the Camelot Cancer should go to jail.
Lodi treating wornoutmom at Oasis of hope should be in jail or rehab.
I think those of you like Joylieswithin(aka sheila) are almost as guilty as the quacks. You see women dying but cover it up and continue your crusade to prove alite medicine cures cancer.
Oh, by the way, if I did not make myself clear, Vivre is a real scumbag. I suspect 11 other identities on BCO.
Vivre sees the money that quacks make and clearly wants a piece of that pie for herself. She not anly invades the altie forums, she branches out to the newlly diagnosed women with breast cancer and warns them on the harms of chemo. Never mind that she is selling suppiments and directing sick and vulneralbe women to her website.
Here are some deep thoughts from Vivre taken from BCO:
and I credit reading with getting me on the road to great health. Anti Cancer was one of my favorites too.
A book I loved that was like a bible to me during treatments was “The Wisdom of Menopause” by Dr. Northrup. When she talked about women needing to listen to that inner voice, and it would help us to make the right decision, it really hit home. I realized my inner voice was telling me to say no to drugs, which is why I was having such a visceral reaction to the idea of taking arimidex, my onc’s drug of choice for me. Dr. Northrup even talked about these drugs and said they aren’t right for everyone, and we needed to each decide what felt right for us. When I read that, it was the first step to getting my power back and I got the strength to start to question my doctors.
That book created a monster! I will never look at doctors again the same way. The book is not about cancer, it is about becoming the woman we are meant to be. That is why I loved it so much. Who wants to think of cancer all the time?
Q-What do they call the person who graduates last in his class from med school?
A- Doctor
Joined: Nov 2008Posts: 2,163
Post a reply
Jun 22, 2012 08:57 PM vivre wrote:
I just saw this conversation, and have not really read through it but I thought I would add what little I know about the baking soda cure.
It sure seems impossible doesn’t it? Something as cheap as baking soda curing cancer? Imagine how many cancer centers would lose their livilihood if this was true.
Is it true? I have no idea, but I sure would explore the possibility if I still had cancer.
I first heard about this protocol a couple of years ago when I heard Dr. John Apsley speak about how he was trying to find a way to get the baking soda directly to the cancer cellsm bypassing the digestive system. I am not sure if he succeeded, but I saw him again last weekend at the Health Freedom Expo and after having heard his lectures and spoken with him a couple of times, I do believe he is no charlatan. He is a man who really wants to find a cure. He is a brilliant doctor, and way above my level when he lectures, but I find him fascinating. I also believe he has integrity. He is not getting rich off of people. His compassion comes from his own health crisis. He himself was on his way to the Olympics as a swimmer in the 70’s when his adrenals shut down (all that chlorine in the pool?). He had to give up swimming but went on to med school and spent decades going around the world, studying indigenous tribes with longevity and learning about things like water purity and native diets.
take it for what it is worth, he is a man of integrity and he has spoken out about the baking soda cure. Here are some links:
http://www.jmbblog.com/2009/05/radio-...
http://www.naturalhealtharchives.com/...
Here are some little tidbits I learned at the Health Freedom Expo last weekend:
Take digestive enzymes probiotics and and vitamins with food, but before the meal. Take herbals between meals.
Love this comment from Dr. Caldwell, author of a great book called the Answer to Cancer:
“What is really alternative? Why is doing what the body wants naturally considered the alternative”
he also said “All cancers are curable, but not all people are”. So true!
I got to meet Marilu Henner. I did not know that her husband was dx’d with colon cancer, with a poor prognosis, 2 months after they were married. She nursed him back to health with nutrition.
It was so inspiring to be around so many people fighting for health freedom. We must not stop demanding free choice! It was interesting that there were a lot of liberals and conservatives, and they all seem to agree that obamacare must go because it will limit choices even more. If the govt. is paying the bills, they will get to dictate, and since the FDA is already just an arm of Big Pharma, it will spell the end of so much of what we can still do here. It is almost impossible to get iodine in EU now and not easy to find here. We must keep fighting the bills that Durbin and Waxman keep pushing to put more regulations on supplements. Even though I only use pharma grade supplements (most are food grade), if they all are required to follow more regulations, they will cost a fortune. That is why big pharma continues to lobby for more regulation. Their business is down and they want it back.
The top three most essential minerals, iodine, magnesium and selenium.
Black-cat, you may want to learn to use “blockquote” markup to make it more clear what is your own text and what is being quoted from someone else.
It’s not hard, though I wish I had a preview to tell me if my explanation will render correctly. At the beginning of the section you’re quoting, put an “opening tag” consisting of the following symbols (all together, not separated by quote marks and plus signs):
“”
and when you want to end the quotation, use a “closing tag”:
“”
Ah, nerts. Ok, the directions here should give you the same info: http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_blockquote.asp
Antaeus – I tried to use regular html tags here (and thought they looked right; could have been wrong) and gave up because I wasn’t sure it was “regular HTML tags” or some other kind of tagging.
So (trying this as I type – if it shows up wrong, we can figure out if I am misremembering the syntax) [b]is bold[/b] and [i]is italics[/i] if I am doing this right, so I don’t have to use caps for emphasis and look like I have absolutely no clue…
Nope. Will have to go research. How much I miss preview!
Well that is just silly… how in the world did I end up doing that?
Not spending enough time on the photography forums anymore I guess…
Maybe need to use the pointy brackets instead of square ones.
Mrs. Woo – the square bracket codes are a system called “BBCode” that’s used on some bulletin board systems. Many of them translate directly into HTML if you replace each “[” with a “less than” sign and each “]” with a “greater than” sign.
@Antaeus Feldspar
Thanks for the heads up. I just reread my comments and it is hard to see where I am quoting and at what point I am commenting.
I wish we had a comment preview here, too. I’ll edit my comments for now on to make them more clear.
Jun 28, 2012 05:19 PM KatRNagain92 wrote:
“Well ladies….It’s WORKING! (Protocel)
My PET scan results today showed SIGNIFICANT response to alternative therapy.
Here’s just a little rundown:
Left upper nodule described previously as metabolically active and can no longer be identified by PET and on the CT dataset is less prominent. The left hilar lymph node has decreased metabolic activity with an SUV max of 1.5. No new lung lesions are identified. A dermal lesion present in the posterior left shoulder is no longer metabolically active and on the CT has almost completely disappeared. Additional dermal lesion at the medial aspect of the reconstructed right breast has almost completely disappeared by CT and is no longer metabolically active. A right posterior chest wall lesion also is improved as is a right lateral chest wall lesion.
Abdomen: The subcutaneous nodule noted in the midline has resolved completely by PET and by CT. No metabolically active lesions are noted in the abdomen.
Pelvis: No metabolically active lesions suspicious for tumor. The subcutaneous metastasis in the right buttock has regressed significantly. There remains metabolic activity present with the CT lesion. SUV formerly 17.8 now measures 1.1
Skeleton: No new metastatic lesions are identified.
Praise God…this is so much better than I could have ever hoped for. Now, to go on my family reunion and start living! I leave in the morning and will be back next week! I feel like I have won the lottery!
Thank you Jesus for helping me choose this path!”
To read more about Kat’s entire Protocel journey, visit breast cancer org, forums, alternative medicine and go to the thread, “Protocel 23”
Would love to here your thoughts Orac. This women has stage 4 breast cancer and chemo failed her!
Thank you Antaeus – so it was all of the time I did spend on the photography forums that confused me. Now I don’t feel like quite as big of an luddite! 🙂
Now it makes sense. I was asked to email some person at BCO of whom I had never heard. She identified herself as my RI friend. It made no sense and my reply to her asked her how many identities she had, Give her my email addy? I bet she thinks I help out Nigeriand princes.
I can’t make it through those Protecel sites. They start taking it before diagnosis. Why? If it does really heal cancer why would you nip it in the bud so to speak , then you can not prove it works if there is no cancer to cure. Oh and the one where the woman died, seriously? She’s DEAD, not a stunning endorsement.
@Rose
You have a vivid imagination! LOL
@Leah – there isn’t much there for anyone to really give “good” thoughts to. Anything that would be said on the tiny little anecdote you provide would be speculation at best. That is one of the reasons that anecdotes are not considered evidence.
Also, since it really doesn’t have anything against your recommendation in it, why didn’t you make it easy for him and post the actual thread link?
http://community.breastcancer.org/forum/121/topic/784410?page=1
(I know this will go into moderation, but hey, at least then all the information is shared)
Leah, I’ll ask you the same question we have been asked before, in a context where it is far more reasonable: do you have any evidence that Rose is wrong??
Antaeus Feldspar,
Rose (Rosemary), thenewme and Blackcat are all outcasts at BCO and are known for inventing high school drama. They all have VERY AGGRESSIVE CANCERS and are very angry at the world, especially those who have had success with alternative cancer therapies.
What’s even more disturbing is that they feel morally obligated to enforce the status quo (cut, burn and poison) treatments on everyone, and feel extremely insulted and hurt that a growing number of members are not simply doing what they’re doing. Of course not all alternative cancer treatments are legit. Questioning them, however, in a civil manner is quite different than spitting words such as mentally ill, quacks etc., or making childish sarcastic comments. That’s a deep insecurity on their parts.
The years wasted slandering “alties” on the internet and could be far better spent managing their own health.
Black-cat you are just one stone throw away from Stage 4. Use your time wisely honey before it’s too late.
Wow. I am so sorry the drama from BCO has oozed over here. And Leah, my name is rose. You can guess all day at my identity on BCO but you have things a bit wrong. According to my oncologist my chances of 10 year survival are better than 90%. . Using all caps will not make my cancer more aggressive.
I am not angry at anyone right now and think free diagnosis of my supposed insecurity is worth the price but no more.
Like I said sorry for the nasty that has made its way over here.
Leah, even if I didn’t know anything about alternative cancer treatments, I’d be applying the rule “Civil is as civil does” and concluding that you are a far more likely source of any “high school drama” than the people you’re maligning. You claim that questioning of treatments should be done “in a civil manner” but you have no trouble disparaging mainstream treatment as “cut, burn and poison” and you have no trouble sneering at someone else for being ill complete with the fake endearment “honey.” I wonder if you have any idea how grotesque that is.
Even if you were doing it in a wholly civil manner, I think I’d still be skeptical of what you say about Black-cat, Rose, and thenewme, for the simple reason that most of it is attempted mind-reading. “They’re angry at the world!” “They’re angry and hurt that people aren’t doing what they’re doing!” “They feel morally obligated to enforce the status quo!” “They’re acting out of a deep insecurity!” How would you know, when you aren’t them, aren’t inside their heads to be able to tell what they’re thinking or feeling? Frankly, it sounds like an angry child who claims “Daddy won’t let me play baseball in the house and it’s because he doesn’t want me to have fun!!” You yourself acknowledge that some alternative cancer treatments are not legit – i.e., they deserve the appellation of quackery – but when Rose or thenewme or Black-cat actually call them that, you can’t come up with any other explanation than “feeling a moral obligation to enforce the status quo”? So you have a credibility problem, even without taking the “taunting someone about how bad their cancer is” factor into account.
I think I’ll become an alt-med cancer cure peddler. I’ve got a herb garden that’s drying up in the drought and I need to get some use out of it.
Plus, the kind of people who come to me will sincerely believe that, if they get better, it’s because they stopped doing what a real doctor told them, and began following the regimen recommended by some whackjob with a website.
And if they get worse, it’s because by the time they began following the regiment recommended by some whackjob with a website, the cut, burn and poison of mainstream medicine had already doomed them.
It’s a win-win situation.
Sorry. “Regimen” not “regiment.” I’m having Marine Corps flashbacks, obviously.
(preview function, o where art thou?)
As far as claims that Protecel is working, wouldn’t it be wonderful if the shrinkage of tumors was documented by a medical source instead of someone who does measurements at home and then posts it on the internet.?What a service to cancer research that would be.
“Rose(mary)”, you know the woman had a PetScan. Please stop spreading rumors. You are way to old for this silly nonsense.
I’m a moderate when it comes to treatment options…what works for one might not work for another.
I don’t think it’s legal to take posts from bco especially to poke at other treatment options. There are copyright laws that come into play here.
Also…should those who choose alternative be keeping a list of stage 1 bc women who choose only the conventional approach and find within a few years on the stage IV forum? Unfair.
Leah
You are right. I am way too old for this nonsense. That is all.
Antaeus Feldspar
Indeed! Leah’s posts here are rather trollish I would say.
Sorry if I hurt your feeling, Sauceress.You won’t here from me again. I’ll let you all go back to slandering BCO members in peace. Have fun Black-cat, Rosemary and thenewme and don’t worry, it’s not anybody is reading this thread.
Actually, that “especially” argues well for fair use, not that it’s a commercial use in the first place, making the point moot.
(The purported “perpetual, exclusive, royalty-free and irrevocable license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish [blah, blah, blah]” forum messages in the “Community Rules” is just silly. This is 17 USC 201–205. Clicking “I have read the rules” is very unlikely to be an adequate form of conveyance, and there aren’t any perpetual exclusive licenses.)
Too funny! BlackCat, thenewme and so many others have your number. Good on them and good on this site for trying to expose you without interference.
@leah
Tone troll much?
How laughable, your utter nonsense and pathetic whining would be comedic it it wasn’t actually harming vulnerable women.
A. You were absent the day Fair Use was covered. The original author owns the copyright regardless if the violator is a commercial or noncommercial agent.
Unless the intent is educational or journalistic, e.g., a review, the intellectual property belongs to the original author. Even the charity, The American Cancer Society, cannot legally lift copyrighted material unless they can prove educational intent.
B. The author owns the copyright regardless of whether the publisher (BCO) claims it illegally as their own.
And yet it doesn’t work the other way around, does it? That is, a treatment which doesn’t work for one person might in fact not work for anyone. What exactly is meritorious about keeping silent about treatment options that cost cancer patients precious time, energy and funds and give nothing but false hope in return?
The intent behind copyright law was never so that copyright holders could selectively stifle public discourse. Your “especially” clause suggests that you’d make those who want to disagree with you in public jump through hoops that those who agree with you wouldn’t have to. In what way does it benefit the public interest to give copyright holders that power? None, which is why the copyright system doesn’t give it to them.
What’s unfair about it? The whole reason we trust conventional medicine more than we do “alternative” treatments is that conventional medicine actually wants to know whether its treatments are working or not, and actually collects data to find that out. Alternative medicine just trumpets its successes and pretends its failures don’t exist – or blames the victims, claiming they didn’t follow the “protocol” dreamed up by the guru in enough precise detail.
Leah July 8, 6:49 pm
Au contraire my dear Leah, no hurt feeling here.
I love a piece of fresh troll…nice and crunchy.
Unfortunately by the time I get to them here at RI, they’ve usually already been all chewed up, spat out and lay as a pile of incoherent, unidentifiable mess on the floor.
Huh? You seem to be suffering some confusion.
Trolls never seem to understand the difference between libel and slander either. I’ve noticed that’s a common troll-trait.
I have to wonder if Leah will stick the flounce…
Leah is Joylieswithin, aka sheila. Here she is coping to “writing a long reply::
“I wrote a long reply but will PM tomorrow since this is not private. I stayed up to watch Wimbledon and it’s finished so I must get to bed. I can tell you what really happened in the PM. Just to reassure you all, that woman has no critical thinking skills, she’s abusive, keeps a dossier of twisted “facts” about me, has no medical knowledge or even simple observational skills, and I know her weak points. She has met her match! I have her number and all she has on me is misinformation. Just poke her a bit very politely and she let’s loose and gives away all her weaknesses in her anger. She’s her own worst enemy.
http://www.freewebs.com/holisticmind/apps/forums/topics/show/7777881-security-alert-for-this-forum?page=2
@Black-cat
Seems like leah projects a bit much.
But then again, what would expect from someone apparently so nasty as her.
Joylieswithin, aka Sheila, aka Leah, also posted this on BCO:
Topic: Our private details, real names, diagnoses, etc revealed on Orac
http://community.breastcancer.org/forum/121/topic/790269?page=1
JoyLiesWithin or whatever the f*ck you want to call yourself today, why are you claiming that there is misinformation posted? You seem to be very good at making up your own “high school drama” and twisting the truth around.
On the above thread you accuse me of this:
“If I’m right, anything we’ve said is on display and we can’t delete or edit it. So maybe we do need to upgrade.
I’ve just been subjected to a personal attack on another forum where personal details I’d given in that forum (not here) in conversation over a long period was incorrectly quoted to discredit me. If you can’t use logic, just attack the other person. Then claim to be superior. Fortunately she deleted the information after I challenged her”
JoyLiesWithin, I deleted the my posts on you after I pointed out that you were Sheila and you sent me a PM, whining that I used your real name. You rationalized that you changed your name because that you were unaware that people could find out your true identity. Why lie, JoyLies,Within, aka Sheila, aka Leah
@black-cat, I know who you are, along with all your other ID’s. You better clean your mess up here. You are in big trouble.
@novalox
You want to know how nasty this stupid b*tch really is? She involved herself in Impositve’s “cancer is a fungas” thread, She did not like any reference to Orac because she did not like his attitude.
Her son had just taken a critical thinking class so she appointed herself as the moderater/resident tone troll and sais that she was going to call everyone out on thier critical thinking fallacies. Everytime I linked to Orac’s blogs on Robert O Young and mentioned that he was a breast cancer surgeon, she accused me of the fallacy of appealing to authority.
Impositive had spun herself right off of this planet and was throwing up every pub med study that she could find with the word “myco”, when asked for proof that cancer was a fungas.
She was so far out there that she just knew that cancer was really a fungas and that researchers looking at slides were using the wrong stains and not seeing it. Impositive thought that only if she could discover what stain was used for seeing fungas cells under a microscope, she could truly prove to the world that cancer is a fungas.
Long story short, a young stage four woman with young children called her and JoyLiesWithin, (who was Sheila at the time) out on thier crap. She told Sheila that she was defending the indefensible and brought up the fact that impositve was quoting studies and books that she had either not read or did not understand.
Sheila, the tne troll that she is admonished her on the use of woo woo. How dare her use such a word. She apologized but Sheila was not done with her. She later posted that a stage 4 diagnosis equals certain death after much pain and agony.
Yes, she is projecting as she is stage 3 and had a bilateral mastectomy but refused chemo AMA because it’s such a poisen. She got 2 treatments and decided in her infinate wisdom that chemo does not work for those that are ILC.
The BCO moderators just removed the link( link removed by Mods to protect BCO members)
http://community.breastcancer.org/forum/121/topic/790269?page=2#post_3104762
How did you know that she was the tone troll of the altie boards at BCO?
Also, JoyLiesWithin is in Australia. I think if Orac checked Leah’s isp address, it would come up as being in australia.
JoyliesWithin also posted on BCO:
http://community.breastcancer.org/forum/121/topic/790269?page=1
The mods removed the link to “protect the members”
Here’s JoyLiesWithin’s signature line:
Ethics and compassion must come before science and logic. Medicine can rarely cure so research and alternatives are our best hope.
So Leah, aka JoyLiesWithin, aka Sheila,
You say that I have met my match, that you have my number, all you have to do is poke me politely and that I will let loose and give away all my weaknesses in anger.
I see your lame attempt at putting me in my place as Leah in these comments. I also see some of Orac’s commentators have put you in your place and you have left with your tail in between your legs.
As for this statement,”The years wasted slandering “alties” on the internet and could be far better spent managing their own health.
Black-cat you are just one stone throw away from Stage 4. Use your time wisely honey before it’s too late.”,………
you know damn right well from my posts that I know the seriousness of my diagnosis and as you like to put it “one stone throw away from stage 4”.
Don’t ever call me honey again or refer to me with some other fake term of endearment you f@cking sick biotich. You are a game player with a twisted sick mind.
You know I would have more respect for you if you were honest and told me that my diagnosis of agressive breast cancer made you feel warm and tingly all over.
That picture of yourself that you removed after you discovered that someone could find you through google (DUH), was a good idea. We did have some laughs at it as you have the definate look of a half wit about you. Gotta love that big fat circular face and round thick glasses, not to mention that idiiotic expression you were touting. Where you constipated or what? It did look like you were straining.
Honey, sweetheart,babe, you might want to lose some weight chubby, because fat woman have a higher recurrance rate of breast cancer.. You got that you little cuddly wuddly, poopsie woopsie.
We also call you f@cktard. That claim that we are outcasts is not true. You alties are a minority. I get many PM’s thanking me for correcting your stupidity. See that’s the problem with you altie’s, you pull facts out of your arses. Any statement is true just because you wish it so.
I remember when I first joined that someone asked about the atile boards and the answer that they got was, “they are very strange women who are mostly early stage breast cancer, with very strange beliefs”.
So why don’t’ you come over hear and put me in my place. You have been threatening to do it so do it. I don’t care if you call yourself JoyLiesWithin, Leah, or BlowingSunshineUpYourAss. . I’ll know it’s you.
Leah’s, aka JoyLIesWithin latest post:
“It seems one person has gathered information from around the web on people she disagrees with. She has then published it as she remembered it or out of context in a way that misleads the readers on a site that is not moderated like BCO. There are so many basic and important errors in the information.
People on the blog claim to be professionals yet seem to lack any understanding of freedom of speech, freedom to choose ones own treatments, even basic compassion as they defame people who are fighting stage IV cancer.
They don’t understand the basic fact that opposing someone tends to have the opposite effect and does nothing to persuade them to change. “
If I have any errors in the information that I have posted, I would like to know so please point them out JoyLiesWithin.
That’s life, when you said a surgeon and a nurse, would the nurse be the one who constantly spells fungus “fungas”, or talks of intERvenous instead of intRAvenous? If I was having a nurse insert an IV line I’d want to know she or he knows the difference between putting the needle IN the vein or BETWEEN two veins. I’d also want to know he or she honours patient confidentiality. I’d want to know she wouldn’t use a patient’s disease progression or their depression to taunt them.
I’d also want them to know that MOST conditions other than infections are incurable (but often treatable) unless they can be fixed with surgery. Especially they would understand that diabetes is incurable. Even the average mature adult with little medical knowledge must know that diabetics need medication for life and have their life expectation lowered. Or maybe they don’t understand the exact meaning of the word cure? I don’t think we’re dealing with a nurse at all.
If they want to challenge me I have seen many more inconsistencies, I could write pages but I’ll spare you all. Just look up diabetes cure on the net, or intervenous in a dictionary. Just basic knowledge for a real nurse……….
So I misspelled fungus. Big deal. Spelling was never a strong suit with me. I think you are lying when you accuse me of “talks of intERvenous instead of intRAvenous” When I refer or chart intravneous meds it’s always, “IV” or IVP” .
What’s with the bizzare use of caps, anyway. That gives you away as Leah. And why arent you posting as JoyLIesWithin here? What’s with the Leah persona?
Oh yes, as I told you before, type 2 diabetes is curable. I have told you many other facts that you don’t want to hear, also. Whenever you beat your chest and bellow out that there are no studies on alternative medicine, I tell you that NCCAM spends 27 million year on alternative studies and proves nothing and you proclaim “it’s a good start”. You come back a few days later and beat your chest and bellow out that there are no studies on alternative medicine.
As far as patient confidentiality, you are not my f@cking patient you moron. HIPAA does not apply to you.
You also posted many times on BCO that you tried nursing school but did not make it through because they are elitists and your not an elitist so you were booted out. You than tried natuopatihic school but did not make it because they were also elitists. What the hell are you talking about anyway? I don’t get it. What kind of moron flunks out of natuopathic school.
I want to address this statement:
…..”If they want to challenge me I have seen many more inconsistencies, I could write pages but I’ll spare you all…..
I’m challenging you f@cktard. Bring it on. Don’t spare me. I await with baited breath to hear the wisdom that you will dispense on this blog.
BTW: whenever I think of you, esp. now knowing what you look like, a song comes to mind, POOTCHIE COO. You call me honey and I’ll call you POOTCHIE COO and mimic your bizarre use of caps, just to show you how much I care. Aww isn’t great to have these pet names for each other. I really think that we are making progress here.
Oh yes, these are the lyrics of the song that reminds me of you……..I ain’t the sharpest tool in the shed
She was looking kind of dumb with her finger and her thumb
In the shape of an “L” on her forehead
JoyLiesWithin, we now have pet names for each other and our own song. Oohhh, I am so excited… Let’s hug it out, biotch.
@Lucy:
Re:@black-cat, I know who you are, along with all your other ID’s. You better clean your mess up here. You are in big trouble……………..
What other ID’s? I don;’t have any other ID’s. Big trouble, huh? Bring it on.
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/cam/cancell/HealthProfessional/page3
This seriously needs to stop. There’s a difference between using strong language while making a solid point and using strong language instead of making a point. If everyone who posted in the recent string of comments is who they say they are, both sides are descending to depths they should be ashamed of (and if any of those comments are from people pretending to be someone else? The moderators will find out and expose you.)
It isn’t any better to taunt someone about being fat, or looking ugly, than it is to taunt them about a stage of illness. This isn’t “who can hurt each other worse”; it’s “who has the point of view that is better supported by facts and logic?” If someone says “Your favored treatment option has some impressive-sounding testimonials, but when you look closer, most of those people were doing mainstream treatment and alternative treatment, and there’s no basis for their assumption that it was the alternative treatment that did the job,” that tells me something about who’s bringing the logical thinking. If both sides are simply hurling insults, it tells me nothing about who’s got the right side of the issues.
I had a comment last night that said I was too old for this. Now I am way too old for this. Bottom line. A woman has anecdtal evidence Protocel works. She is touting it as the cure for all that ails humanity. That is not how medicine works.I don’t call names or fling stuff but facts are facts.
Since my last comment is gone,i guess i was swept away in the rip current. I did not think i was insulting but I was upset by a mess at another website being brought over here. I will still lurk. I am in awe of the intelligence and spirit here.
Moderation? Something the website which will not be named can use. Love it!!
@Leah,
You have it only partially right about me. My breast cancer *was* a particularly aggressive one. 5 cm triple negative tumor with sudden onset at age 39 with absolutely no known risk factors, no family history, completely out of the blue. Thanks for noticing, but what is your point about that?
You’re mistaken about my anger. I’m certainly not angry at the world. My anger is mostly reserved for the quacks and shills who prey on vulnerable breast cancer patients suddenly thrown into the overwhelming and terrifying world of cancer. Scamsters who troll cancer patient support sites with their siren songs, taking advantage of the fear and unpleasant realities of the disease, making false promises and selling false hope directly to their perfect target audience.
As for the slander and defamation and libel and copyright violation accusations…. I don’t think those terms mean what you think they mean.
Oh, let’s all take a deep cleansing breath…
I’m joking, of course.
You see, after years of reading/ hearing streams of invective launched by alt med proselytyisers, I often wonder how it affects those who buy into that worldview: they feed upon the vitriol and get revved up by the deliberately emotional language that is used to manipulate them and bias their decision-making. Read their fans’ comments on their facebook pages: you’ll see what I mean.
And it’s natural to respond to their histrionics emotionally as well because we ARE dealing with life-threatening issues.
So what’s a sceptic to do?
We learn to not react to the name-calling and derision; our esteemed and gracious host is a Supercomputer who may well serve as a sublimely effacacious role- model for us.
If you’ve ever been in a real emergency- a natural disaster or a medical situation- you’ll remember that frequently the best strategy is to shelve the emotions so that you can function effectively; during an economic fiasco, a person who manages money can’t rely upon feelings but data, facts and the rules/ history of the game. Believe me, it works!
So here is a bit of a plan:
We learn how alt med relies upon emotion and distorts real data:
par example, they might discuss deleterious effects of a SBM treatment without talking of its merits and its benefit/ risk profile. So we point this out.
We can dispassionately look at the real numbers.
Of course, then their retort may be that all SBM data is fixed.
Then we can use logic and probability:
as I once asked a ‘prentice anti-vaxx superstar, “How likely is it that ALL the research SBM consensus presents about vaccines is fixed?” It’s more likely that there is a single chiseler or a small coterie of emotionally/ financially invested cheats.
Lots of us like to joke and use curse words – obviously to cut the tension. And don’t forget, it takes time and patience to learn when vicious snark is *just* the right touch. We are all of us learning as we go along: discussing issues rather than LIVING them.
We do it because it is terribly important and necessary.
Denice Walters
You have an excellent point. Woo peddlers are extremely good at manipulating people’s feeling. Then when they have pushed someone who actually believes in facts over the edge they trot out their tone troll and join in a chorus of indignation. I am sorry but cancer treatment is not a game for me. it is life and death.
I do not have scientific training but have a brother who is a chemist and a father, a husband, a son and a son in law who are engineers. Sloppy thinking has never been allowed in my house and you do not win an argument by dismissing a source without showing a better one. A scientific one. Probably (gasp) a government one.
I find their total dismissal of government sponsored research a brick wall especially when it extends to dismissal of academic institutions because one department in the school received funds for a totally unrelated project.
I don’t mind if people make money off my cancer. I will pay for worthwhile treatments but people who promote products that they know don’t work because their patients die are just -well I said i didn’t call names.
I don’t call names and I can’t type. I thought I had caught all the typos. Sorry
Rose,
Have you seen any of the posts on RI trying to discredit Orac because one of his research projects received a small amount of funding from Big Pharma? So that means every single word on this blog is written for and paid by the drug companies and everyone who posts anti-alt messages is in the pocket of Big Pharma, according to them.
Wakefield, of course, was not in anyone’s pocket. Oh wait…
I personally prefer Big Parma, especially with spaghetti or shaved over a caeser salad.
they never say who is raking in the cash for their quackery.
Marc
Then there is the mistrust of government. Oh but a word of advice, don’t go on a breast cancer support board and bad mouth oncologist.
Darn it, should have been caesar salad. I hit “submit” before proofing.
@ Rose:
By the ‘rules/ history of the game’ I meant those of the _Market_ and was simultaneously making an obscure movie reference to Jean Renoir’s 1939 masterwork. However, you could probably transfer the analogy to *scepticism* itself.
Human endeavors have rules and scenarios: by placing ourselves within this set of limitations, we can partially foresee and influence the most likely outcomes. Although dealing with the intricacies and uncertainties of a serious illness is hard work, *abstracting* ourselves a bit from it, from time-to-time, enables us to suffer less through the brief rest ( I *don’t* have any illnesses but have worked as a counsellor in this area). I realise that it is no walk in the park. Dealing with an illness and being a source of information are two distinctly different- altho’ often contemporaneous- tasks.
If our collective primary task is informing people about the dangers of woo, it’s probably best to keep an even keel. Actually, I think that most of BC.org SBM supporters here have tried and mostly achieved that. Which isn’t at all easy.
But like it or not, cool heads will usually prevail.
I’m still waiting for my check from Big Pharma. It sure would help with the medical bills.
Yes, I can hit below the belt, also and it makes me look just as bad.
This was two years of pent up frustration with dealing with the alties on BCO. JoyLIesWithin sneaking in with another identity and sneering at my cancer diagnosis is the last straw. I have only posted under the identity Black-cat. I hate the twisting of the truth, those with monetary and politial agendas who feel the need to try to talk newly diagnosed women out of treatment. I hate the fact that the alties that I deal with there are highly dshonest and try to cover up the women that progress to stage 4 after tryng the much coveted psueoscience. I hate the mentality “doctors dont know anything and we can use the school of google and arm ourselves with just as much information as they have”
I have a love of science and critical thinking and this is my first experience with a group of alties that will go to any lengths to distort the facts.
The women that shun conventional treatment for alternative are certainly a minority but one life lost because of those altie boards is one life too many.
@Denice Walter
Re:
Lots of us like to joke and use curse words – obviously to cut the tension. And don’t forget, it takes time and patience to learn when vicious snark is *just* the right touch. We are all of us learning as we go along: discussing issues rather than LIVING them.
We do it because it is terribly important and necessary
Paramedics can get pretty snarky too. The harder the call and the more that it bothers you, the more you make off color jokes and laugh about it. It’s a release “to cut the tension” and those that hold it in don’t last too long in the biz.
I did the same thing here. I’ll work on keeping my name calling to a minimun. I’ll still stoop to calling Gary Null a pig.
I will still post information on those that try to make money off of vulnerable cancer patents.. The others who are alties and innocents have nothing to worry about. I spoke with a lot of them via PM and there are some there that don’t have agendas and truly believe that alternatiive is better than “slash, poisen and burn”. They are a little misguided but not a danger to others.
@ Black-cat:
Well, I wouldn’t call that stooping but it *is* extremely offensive to pigs who are, after all, just poor animals and can’t help either their appearance or manner.
And your description ( ” twisting the truth.. monetary and political agendas”) is equally apropro for woo in general . I also differentiate woo aficionados who are patients themselves ( as in HIV/AIDS denialists) or parent advocates ( as in anti-vaxx) from those who make their living off them- unfortunately, sometimes the line betwixt is blurred because marks may emulate their masters and start writing books and selling products ( see Age of Autism for many examples).
A tired hobo asked farmer John if he could give him a bed for the night. Farmer John told the hobo he could sleep in the barn with the pigs. One hour later, the hobo knocked on farmer John’s door and said, “They stink to high heaven, I can’t deal with the stench, anymore”.
Gary Null’s car broke down late at night and knocked on farmer John’s door and asked for a place to sleep. He took the offer to sleep wtih the swine in the barn. 15 minutes later there was a knock on farmer John’s door. He aswered it to find the pig’s oinking out, “”He stinks to high heaven, We can’t deal with the stench, anymore”.
Farmer John is now sueing Gary Null for the loss of his run a way pigs.
Black cat – you go girl! Screw those altie biotches!
@Denice Walter
What a sick site. I see the typical altie fearmongering. Jenny McCarthy on the front page of “Autism Science Digest” Yep, she is the cutting edge when it comes to finding out the latest research on autism.
Looks like the kind of comments on the bco altie forums if chemo was substituted for vaccines. Would work for this stsatement,”
Only stupid mommies let their kids get the chickenpox vaccine. Kids who get the vax have an extremely high rate of serious adverse reactions, including death, much higher than the very small number who die from the natural disease.”
What a surprise, there’s Mercola speaking out against GMO’s.
Re:
(sometimes the line betwixt is blurred because marks may emulate their masters and start writing books and selling products )
Yep, it’s very hard for me to tell if some of those that started out as marks and start selliing supplements and books, really believe in what they are doing or see how easy it is for their mentors to make good money fooling the gullible and want a slice of that pie for themselves. Others like vivre are very obvious but even with her, it’s hard to tell is she believes some of the trash she promotes and profits off of.
Anybody could start a website and sell supplements with very little overhead. Empty capsules could be purchased from a health food store and filled with tap water. Poach a couple of chapters from a physiology book and doctor up some sentences about xyz homeopathy cure and one could be off and running. Conspiracy theories involving Big Pharma would be a must.
black-cat and thenewme and others. Ever thought of starting a website that would provide sensible support for BC? In other words, science based research and altnernative methods that have merit in reducing the side effects and/or are being reseached. If the site can be dedicated to sensible sollutions and research, it might fill a void.
Excellent suggestion, followerfrombco. If black-cat and thenewme set up a website, I’m sure it would be a hit.
Of course black-cat/thenewme website would have to have actual information on it.
There’s only so may times you can use the word “quack” before people think you’re unbalanced.
D, no need to be snotty. I was serious about another website.
There are websites out there giving out better information. Often people who are attempting to reason with scared patients who are searching for alternative treatments that offer “real cure of the real cause,” “no poison/cutting/burning,” etc., will share links to them. Sadly, desperate frightened people (or people who have no idea how to afford chemo) are often tempted and may even purchase various books regarding “real cures,” etc.
It is fascinating. There was a temporarily free book on Amazon about “How to be your own doctor and knowing when to do so” or something like that. It was published posthumously by the author’s loving husband. She was a hygienist by practice and believed in toxins, etc. She also insisted she had cured several cancers by appropriate diet, rest and enemas.
She died of cancer, too, just like Hulda Clark.
I don’t know if some people occasionally get lucky and “hit” something that works for just one person, or if they just so happen to treat a person who has a miraculous regression. Without consistent results, though, any treatment is suspect. People need to realize that double-blinded clinical trials need to be done and that they should know how to tell a good trial from a bad one when evaluating information. If they do not know that, then they should have a trained person who knows how to do so evaluating the information for them.
If one does not believe in alternative methods why would one include them in a website? Once an alternative is shown to work it is no longer an alternative, it is good medicine. Good diet exercise not smoking are all conventional preventative measures for cancer. I am serious here. I am missing the point.
@Rose – that’s what the alt-woo people don’t get. Once something is found to work, it isn’t “alternative” anymore – it is just medicine….
Alternative medicine is not sensible support for breast cancer patients. Proven therapies are sensible. Alternatives are wishful thinking.
It is good to see black-cat has acknowledged her rants here were a very poor decision.
Black-cat, your words do not define anyone else. Your words can only define you. Learn it and live it.
@followerfrombco
Yes, I am seriously thinking of starting a website with thenewme (if she wants to) and others. I have been meeting with medical personnel and also plan on getting some university professors in the life sciences. My best friend is an attorney and we have been talking about the legalities of having a site. Se keeps reminding me of all the work it’s going to be and the start up fees but knows me and thinks that I can do it. I personally think she (and my family) is sick of my rants on bco and seeing the effect it has on me. They don’t understand why I even bother.
I have been all over bco the past couple of days and think that I can do better.
My idea for this site is to owned by numerous professionals who draw a salary of a dollar a year. Yes, there will be forums on psuedoscience and another one to list dangerous quacks but not to rant and rave about quacks, but to rather inform and educate.
@Ms Woo
Re:
(People need to realize that double-blinded clinical trials need to be done and that they should know how to tell a good trial from a bad one when evaluating information. If they do not know that, then they should have a trained person who knows how to do so evaluating the information for them)
I agree! I have seen enough of the altie forums on bco to know that alties either don’t understand or haven’t read the studies that they are touting. Of course these studies are to support whatever alternative miracle treastmet that they are cliaming. Orac wrote that he could find 55 studies on pubmed showing homeopathy works.
I thought this would be remedied by having a forum on studies that is moderated by someone of science that is able to explain them. Thy would have to have Orac’s talent for dumbing down posts so everyone can understand them.
It will take a great deal of work and effort, but I think it will work.
Black-cat – I hope you do open a website, and I hope it is advertised. There is a need for a place for people who don’t have their head in the clouds. It’s very disillusioning to read strings of posts, and then having the original poster make it apparent that their stories were nothing more than a veiled sales pitch for their favored remedy..
Not only was a protocel thread elsewhere shown to be a sales pitch – the poster was angry that no one wanted information to try it themselves, but some other poster now will reveal a miracle eraser for DCIS in a few months – with people egging her on, begging her now to delay telling them what it is.
Honest information would be nice for once.
@Lucy
I see now that your feeble threats of getting me in “big trouble” have petered out, you morph into a tone troll. I am not the one witth the multiple identities that you accuse me of. Those who live in glass houses…..
Blackcat
Any website you ran would be excellent. I know you would put your heart and soul into it and seek out the expertise of the very best, You go girl!
@black-cat, I never said I was going to get you in big trouble. You must read more carefully. No one else can get you in trouble. Only you yourself can do that. It’s the same as I said before.
Your words cannot define anyone else. They can only define you. Always choose them carefully and measure them critically.
Good luck with your website, should that ever materialize.
(Lucy wrote
July 9, 12:11 am
@black-cat, I know who you are, along with all your other ID’s. You better clean your mess up here. You are in big trouble.)
Re:
Your words cannot define anyone else. They can only define you. Always choose them carefully and measure them critically)
Yes, I take your first post as feeble threats to silence me. Tell me, Lucy, did you give critical thought to that first post and is that an example of how carefully you choose your own words?
@followerfrombco and blackcat – thanks for the kind words, but honestly, I don’t think I have it in me to do a website. I’d love if one existed, but my experience with BCO has left me pretty disillusioned.
@D – Re: “Of course black-cat/thenewme website would have to have actual information on it. There’s only so may times you can use the word “quack” before people think you’re unbalanced.”
Apparently you haven’t read my posts on BCO, since I *do* post actual factual, evidence-based information. Or maybe you’re under the influence of the quacks (if it walks like a duck and sells rubber ducky suits, then…ya know.) who consider “actual information” to be things like Rife machine therapy or oil pulling or alkaline diet or BHRT therapy for curing your own cancer without the bothersome and evil influence of real medical doctors (no, the “naturopathic oncologists” they like to rave about don’t count.)
@MrsWoo
Re: “People need to realize that double-blinded clinical trials need to be done and that they should know how to tell a good trial from a bad one when evaluating information. If they do not know that, then they should have a trained person who knows how to do so evaluating the information for them.”
I couldn’t agree more! I’m so frustrated that BCO, which *could be* such a great support resource for real breast cancer patients dealing with a very real life-threatening disease, has become a haven for quacks and misinformation. The shills and MLM’ers there make a game of it, appealing to the vulnerable emotions and desperation of patients in order to hawk their useless supplements, “rebounders,” infrared saunas, health freedom expos, thermography, and every other quack treatment you can think of and then some! When confronted about their agendas, they either shift the focus or downright lie about their affiliations and then try to turn it around and make *me* out to be the bully or troll or Big Pharma shill or whatever. It’s sick. Just really, really sick.
And just what do you mean by “define” in this context, Lucy? I suspect you haven’t actually thought about what you mean by it, and have given even less thought to whether the premise it denotes is actually, y’know, true.
I suspect you mean something along the lines of “If I tell myself I’m a wise seeker of truths, those words will define me as a wise seeker of truths. They will make my actions wise actions; they will make the truth be where I am seeking it.” Sadly, the world does not work this way. If I invest my savings into a perpetual motion machine scheme, it does not make a difference if I try to define myself with words as “a brilliant entrepeneur.” My actions have defined me more deeply than my words can.
@ black-cat, absolutely. I always choose my words carefully and measure them critically. I wasn’t trying to silence you, btw. If you are to be silent or not is entirely up to you. I was simply giving you a heads up.
I do wish you well and hope you are in a better place now.
@Antaeus Feldspar,
Careful, now! You’re cutting right to the heart of the very essence of quackery there!
*Of course* it’s true if they think/want/say it to be true! Just ask ’em! How else are they supposed to increase their downline and affiliate income and bonuses?
@ A Feldspar, I mean exactly what I said in very simple terms. Black-cat made several disparaging posts about several different people. The words a person uses about another doesn’t define that person, but it tells me much about the person using them.
Are you saying you believe that say, my words, can define who you are? Surely not.
Lucy, why would you lie about me having multiple ID’s. What does this say about you? Just that one lie ruins your credibility with me, not that you had any, esp. if you are lucy88 on bco. If you are Lucy88,you lie like a rug. And what are you giving me a heads up about? Your thinly veiled threats are extremely vague.
See, that’s my problem with you alties, you twist words and the truth to mean whatever you want them to mean. Every single one of you that I mentioned here are highly dishonest game players. Let’s take Leah, JoyLIesWithin, Sheila for instance. She was called out here for for sneering at my breast cancer diagnosis. What did she do? Go straight back to bco and make the announcement that the commentators on Orac’s site sneer at women with stage 4 breast cancer. She also ranted that this site is censored. Classic example of an altie wanting others to believe something is true just because she said so.
I would not care if you were on a worried well altie site but you are messing with sick and vulnerable women’s heads for your own agendas. Just that one lie ruins your credibility with me, not that you had any, esp. if you are lucy88 on bco.
Why don’t you cut the crap on the fake caring. I just love this thinly veiled slight at the pretense of being compassionate and concerened.
(Good luck with your website, should that ever materialize.)
As for being in a better place RI f@cking rocks. Tone trolls like you are called out on their crap, unlike the altie boards at bco.
LUCY, YOU GOT SOME SPLAININ TO DO
Do you not see the obvious difference in meaning between these two deep thoughts of yours:
(Black-cat, your words do not define anyone else. Your words can only define you. Learn it and live it.)
(@ A Feldspar, I mean exactly what I said in very simple terms. The words a person uses about another doesn’t define that person, but it tells me much about the person using them)
There you go getting all twisty with those words again. You alties are true Darwiniian Award winners when it comes to rationalizing your nonsense..
If my words define me does that mean that if I say I am a mermaid then I am one? But wait NOAA says mermaids don’t exist. Dang gubmint..
Rose July 10, 9:59 pm
Don’t tell my daughter!
My husband sent me a text about it last week. I told him he was evil until he promised not to tell.
My husband keeps saying they are manatees and when I say manatees do not look like beautiful women he replies that I have not been at sea for months.
I mean exactly what I said in very simple terms. I don’t think you’ve thought about just what you mean when you say “define”, and if you mean it in such a way that every person gets to define themselves simply by choosing words, and that “definition” will apply even if it is contradicted by their actions, then I think your definition of “define” is a load of crap.
@Lucy
No one else can get you in trouble? Does that mean that no one ever got framed for a crime?
Your comment looks like a clever aphorism the meaning of which you have not thought through.
That is not said yo pick on you but merely to ask exactly what you meant because your words were not clear to me..
I am a stage IV breast cancer person who goes to the forums on BCO for research, and also for community with women and men who are experiencing the same/similar thing at the same time as me. I was a registered nurse as well as a registered midwife who was educated in a evidenced based university program designed by some of the people in the forefront of evidence based medicine at McMaster University. I say this by way of explanation of who I am and where I am coming from.
My treatment consists of those recommended by Cancer Care Ontario, mx, docetaxol, herceptin, letrozole. I get weary of all that, including blood work, diagnostic scans etc. so when I go to the Alternative Forums and Complementary Forums at BCO I am looking for something, I don’t know, the germ of something new, something that might make physiological sense, but it’s so new that it is Alt. I haven’t found that something, but I continue, maybe that’s why I have been convinced to buy way over priced face creams that I know are “just hope in a bottle”. I think that while there are credulous members of BCO, the majority of us are rather sensible women who want to know as much as we can about all aspects of possible treatment, evidence based medicine, as well as woo and things that are just “out there”. I do wish that this thread could stop discussing specific women from BCO and back to the topic Protocel-it doesn’t work.
@Kay Hudson,
I go there for the same reasons you do….searching for that proverbial needle in a haystack. Something that might just give me a treatment edge.
I know what you mean about discussing specific women from BCO. On the other hand, though, a woman there claims to be having fantastic results curing her own Stage IV breast cancer with protocel (using a dimestore ruler to measure her palpable tumors and using eye goop and stool mucus as a gauge of progress!). She has started her own website to “PROMOTE PROTOCEL” (her own words from her site!), and she’s hawking it there on BCO.
In my opinion, it’s disgusting, disingenuous, and just evil. If she wants to use protocel, I have no problem at all with that. To me, she crossed the line into promoting it and making unsubstantiated claims about it directly to a very captivated target audience of breast cancer patients, that she deserves to be called out. Called out for being a scammer and a quack. At that point, she’s no longer ” just an innocent breast cancer patient fighting the battle for her life” like the rest of us.
Why doesn’t she participate in a *REAL* medical monitoring program if her success is real, verifiable, and legitimate? Why don’t the Protocel makers do a real trial? I guarantee if it showed real evidence of benefit in treating, curing, or preventing cancer, they’d have more money and fame than they could handle. I’d give every penny I have and dedicate my life to promoting it too.
Unfortunately, when I look into it, all I find are affiliate networking links to Tanya Hart Pierce’s book “Outsmart Your Cancer,” promising me great income potential for hawking her BS.
Protocel is just another Amway-type scam. Except that instead of cleaners that leave dirty floors, Protocel kills people. An innocent game? A poor desperate breast cancer patient trying to survive? Or a con artist earning income by deceiving cancer patients with false promises, life-threatening advice and conspiracy bullshit?
@ORAC – just for the record, I stand by every single thing I post, here and elsewhere. I don’t have time, energy, or reason to pretend to be something or someone I’m not, despite what you may be told. I’m sorry that some seem to be trying to drag you into the fray, but I’m happy to clarify or provide more information about anything I’ve said.
Thanks again for all you do!
@black-cat, first, I am not an altie. In fact, I have never posted on the forum at bco. I’ve never heard of Lucy88.
I was disturbed to see someone with breast cancer direct so much vitriol and hatred toward other women with breast cancer. Your horrific words towards others define who you are. Words are powerful things. The intent in your words towards others define YOU. And from where I am looking in, you are a very frightened and damaged person.
I
@Lucy,
I won’t speak for blackcat, but your mis-perception is a common cry from “alties.” Most skeptics’ “vitriol and hatred” isn’t toward other women with breast cancer. It’s more likely directed at predators of women with breast cancer.
@ABCDEFG
Re: “…but some other poster now will reveal a miracle eraser for DCIS in a few months – with people egging her on, begging her now to delay telling them what it is.”
OMG, I just saw that! So she’s holding the secret to miraculously curing her own large DCIS breast cancer tumor without surgery…. and she’ll report her results on November 7, 2012??? Gee. I’m holding my breath….
I guess the secret miracle cure is to keep people paying attention to her.
@thenewme
We have been friends for a long time. You can freely speak for me anytime. I trust you with my impeccable reputation. I just sent you an email. Would love to hear your thoughts.
@Lucy
Re:(“The intent in your words towards others define YOU. And from where I am looking in, you are a very frightened and damaged person.”)
Give it up. This is the 3rd time you have twisted the meaning of YOUR words. Not an altie, huh. Could have fooled me for the way you rationalize what you wrote when you are called out on your crap. Gee, how does that define your emotional health. Emotionally healthy people don’t rationalize away their mistakes and don’t come across as pathological liars.. Alties can out rationalize and out lie any hard core alcholic under the table any day. Until I was introduced to the topsy turvy altie alternate universe, I thought alcoholics held the corner market when it came to rationalizing and lying.
I strongly suspect you are Lucy88, your writing styles are exact, and you both love to twist the meaning of your words around when confronted on the validity of the meaning of those said words. . But I can’t prove it because you are not announcing on other websites under other names who you are and “how I have met my match” and than seem surprised when I out you (duh).
So, I can’t prove that you are the person that I strongly suspect that you are but frankly, Scarlett, I don’t give a damn. Give it up. You have been successfully called out on your drivel.
I suggest you go back to the altie boards on bco where you are an accepted and revered alumni. All of this negativity cannot be good for your inner peace. Your chakras are probably so far off center it’s going to take a special naturopath that’s trained in quantum mechanics of the mind and the art of reseting your nervous system to get you back to center. That’s gotta cost some big bucks.
Those on BCO who claim to be in the medical field yet harass, insult and denigrate women with breast cancer and who are crying mommy here are:
1. not credible. Period
2. give the medical professions a very bad name
3. out of touch with reality
4. extremely dangerous – willing to go to any length
5. in need of immediate psychiatric help
There is no excuse for viciously and malignantly terrorizing suffering women. Their cruelty fills me with revulsion
To the cannibal amongst you who said:
‘I love a piece of fresh troll…nice and crunchy. Unfortunately by the time I get to them here at RI, they’ve usually already been all chewed up, spat out and lay as a pile of incoherent, unidentifiable mess on the floor.’
You must be possessed. The most grotesque and creepy creature I have ever seen, I can’t even imagine the looks of you because I don’t watch horror movies
And to the one that said:
‘Black cat – you go girl! Screw those altie biotches!’
YOU WIN THE PRIZE FOR THE MOST VULGAR AND DETESTABLE BIOTCHE !
To those using the French sauce, Denice up there, pleeeeease, you turn my stomach
FYI Orac, unless you are thenewme/ blackcat, that despicable creature has been hiding behind your name on BCO and thanks to her/him you have become the symbol of insanity. You are despised as much as the coward it is
Ahhhhhh, now that feels so good, hum !!! All that pent up frustration 😉
ETA: thenewme/blackcat is likely the author of:
“…but some other poster now will reveal a miracle eraser for DCIS in a few months – with people egging her on, begging her now to delay telling them what it is.”
I did mention insanity, didn’t I ?
I have to add that I love the fact that Orac does not tolerate sock puppets on this site. Lucy, you can’t make up other identities to back you up. If this were bco, there would be 5 more Lucy’s under different names posting for the first time. Each of those identities would claim that they just out of the blue stumbled on this thread and have to speak up on the poor injustices that Lucy is suffering. The writing style would be just like Lucy’s. The fact that you can’t do that here must really chaff your hide.
@Boudicca,
Re: “I did mention insanity, didn’t I ?”
Yeah…and demonstrated it, too!
@Boudicca – awwwww, shucks….thank you!
*Jergen says while holding up her gold statue award*
I would like to thank all the idiotic Alties on BCO. Without them, this would not be possible. Thank you!
Oh my. Boudicca.
First of all trolls are nasty mean creatures who live under bridges and while eating them would not be to my taste, exactly how is that cannibalism?
Oh and who was it who said”There is no excuse for viciously and malignantly terrorizing suffering women.” I guess it all depends on whose ox is being gore.
Interesting. So, you aren’t deeply enough involved with the BCO forums to have ever posted there, or to have ever heard of Lucy88, but you are deeply enough involved that within days of Black-cat starting to post here, you’re already aware of it and volunteering all sorts of (so far, unsubstantiated) attacks on her character?
You are aware that in the best-case scenario, this paints you as someone who has little interest in posting constructively, on a subject where you could be offering help or moral support, but has great interest in bad-mouthing people and will bestir themselves to post if it means they get to tarnish a reputation?
The alt forum on BCO is dominated by women who want no questions asked. Nobody attacks them as much as they attack and whine about anyone who dares to ask for information that provides evidence of efficacy. Very often the sales types stop posting when the questions become too pointed and skeptical. At that point they must figure they are about to be exposed. Usually they cry they are being bullied. No, they are being asked for information.
The site is run by a Dr and I truly do not understand why these people are given free reign to promote Protocel, black salve, etc. it’s despicable on the part of the site owner.
Then again if these people are stupid enough to believe this BS perhaps we should just turn away from the coming train wreck.
@Antaeus Feldspar
And this is Lucy’s very first post,, who just just happened to stumple upon the comment sections of this particular post
Lucy
July 9, 12:11 am
(@black-cat, I know who you are, along with all your other ID’s. You better clean your mess up here. You are in big trouble)
‘Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive’
Antaeus, I will beat you one coffee enema that Lucy’s not done here and still tries to put a spin on this misinformation of hers.
make that bet you one coffee enema
@Boudicca
Re:
(Ahhhhhh, now that feels so good, hum !!! All that pent up frustration )
I can understand what a relief it must be for you to release copious amounts of methane gas into the atmosphere from your bloated body , but just think of what you are doing to the ozone layer. You are creating a clear and present danger. Your butt is a weapon of mass destruction. For the love of God, think of the children and cork it up.
Boy, those altie women from BCO are sure nasty – it’s a wonder anyone is game enough to post on that site.
@AFriend:
they are far nastier than us skeptics that have been on that site for years. They are not only nasty, they are deceitful and they get away with it. You can see from Lucy’s posts the crazy making of constantly twisting the truth. Reason and logic do not exist in the alite world You can’t have a concrete and legitimate argument with them because they keep twisting and changing the premises. Think of trying to reason with a couple of dozen Lucy’s. It will drive you positively mad.
During my 2 year self imposed altie prison sentence, I had so many people contact me and thank me for being the voice of reason. Some of them were alties and they thanked me for exposing psuedoscience and explaining it in a way that they could understand. That’s why I stayed as long as I did.
I have been told by newly diagnosed women that vivre and lucy88 were pming them and trying to talk them out of chemo and sell them crap. This is allowed. I even seen vivre go into the stage one forums and openly try to persuade women not to get treatment. The last one I saw was stage one, her2 positive. This is accepted and encouraged. Almost every time I mentioned this my posts would be deleted. It’s up to other members to do something about it. If you email the moderators about this you will get a canned, “she’s only expressing her opinion” answer.
I can give it right back to them but I have seen so many polite gentle people, with a science background, get humilated and leave in frustration. I have seen a woman, who is a microbiologist, told that she is ignorant and did not know how to read the studies she presented. Of course she did. Ironically it was Lucy88 that told her that she dosent know how to read studies and Maud,( whom I strongly suspect is Boudicca,) who called her ignorant. You have to be thick skinned to post on that site, that is unless you are an altie and into conspiracy theories.
BCO is a broken site and that’s why I would like to get another website started that has no woo and is run by volunteers that are professionals in science and medicine.
I thought this discussion was going to be about Protocel. Orac you’ve yet to respond to my post.
Dear; thenewme, Orac and Black-cat. (a triliogy of personas? Oh my) Yes, I used a dimestore ruler to measure my palpable tumors but I am also having PET scans quarterly under the supervision of my Oncologist. What part of that isn’t conventional medicine? My Oncologist, while a medical establishment skeptic, is amazed by my progress on this treatment. I am not a scam artist hawking Protocel…I stand to gain nothing.
My dear Breast Surgeon, you are the one making the 6 (or is it 7) figure income. I on the other hand, am not (nor will I ever) make one single penny for the sale of Protocel. Not one. I will however, live and to me that is the richest payment of all.
Number one: I am not Black-cat, the newme, or anyone else on the BCO boards. I have never posted on BCO, either as Orac, my real life identity, or any other identity. In fact, it was only in the discussion threads here on my own blog that I even learned how appalling BCO’s alt-med discussion forum is; that was the first time I ever perused BCO, and I did it only briefly.. I do, however, plan on mentioning it and warning people about it in a talk I’m giving in a few hours about cancer information on the Internet, though; so I’m grateful to have learned about it.
Second, posts revealing personal details of pseudonymous commenters on BCO have been removed. Apparently, the mods at BCO complained, but in this case I have to agree. Not to Black-cat: Stop outing posters there. I will not tolerate it. Having blogged under a pseudonym for many years, I am particularly sensitive to the issue of “outing” of pseudonymous bloggers and commenters.
Third, you seem to think I make a lot more money than I do. Seven figures? Seriously? I don’t know a single physician who makes that much money, not even those who own businesses on the side, with the exception of alt-med docs like Dr. Mercola and Dr. Burzynski. The point is, I’m sure they exist, but they’re not common in the circles I travel in, although there are quite a few quacks who make seven figures.
Finally, Protocel is pure quackery. There’s no valid evidence that it works. There’s no biological mechanism by which it could work; in fact the explanations for how it “works” go against well-established biology.
Again, as I did on the BCO boards, I would like to thank you for helping me get the word out that Protocel is a viable option. By keeping this topic alive, it leads me to believe that deep down in your stainless-steel heart of hearts, you realize that Protocel is the answer that the trillion dollar oncology industry has been dreading for over 40 years.
No, Protocel is pure quackery. It doesn’t work. That’s the message of this post.
That proclamation sounds like it’s straight out of “The Quackery Guide to Sales Pitch”
That proclamation sounds like it’s straight out of “The Quackery Guide to Sales Pitch”
“Protocel [if it actually worked would be] the answer that the trillion dollar oncology industry has been [rigorously and actively pursuing] for over 40 years.”
There, fixed that for you.
Ooops…not guilty! Even exact same time stamp.
If you wonder who role models vitriolic and hateful speech concerning SBM, wonder no more : the woo-meisters I survey have an endless supply of derision put forth through internet radio, ‘documentaries’ and website blogs/ articles/ exposes. Their advocates mimic both their style and talking points. Go to Natural News Radio or the Progressive Radio Network for an audio sample.
One of my own faves is the so-called ‘Cult of the Professional’- wherein those who study and earn degrees are revered for their achievments and regarded as experts when the entire set-up is merely a ‘fix’ by the powers-that-be to promote and substantialise their own wicked agenda.
Yes, Uncle Rupert paid for my education and now expects RETURNs on his investment, It’s all true.
Uncle Sugar paid for mine. But I’m still waiting for my Big Pharma payoff.
This has been interesting. I usually try to avoid train wrecks but I found myself oddly fascinated.
Thank you, all, for having the intellectual capacity and ego integrity to withstand the unwarranted attacks on your persona.
I understand that the people who dominate this web site are evidence based medicine supporters, and that, most of, the posters who cast aspersions are not. If I could have my way there would be no argumentum ad hominem. Alas it is difficult for most of us to remain civil while disagreeing.
Maybe we all just need to get our chakras balanced 😉
@katrn – your assessment of my identity is as bizarre as your assessment of protocel. I’m flattered that you’d think I’m Orac, but I’m not even in the same league as he is (cancer knowledge-wise, career-wise, and certainly not salary-wise, LOL!). I’m a real breast cancer patient who is frustrated and concerned about misinformation about alternative medicine “treatments” for breast cancer that have no basis in fact or reality.
The fact is that YOU advertised your new website on BCO, and YOU evidently posted your real (?) name on your site and listed your occupation as “PROMOTING PROTOCEL.” You constantly refer to Protocel affiliate income network marketing scamsters in your gushing testimonials about miraculously curing yourself of stage IV breast cancer.
Gee, I wonder why anyone might get the impression that there’s more to it than meets the eye.
I very sincerely hope that if you are a real BC patient, that you are doing (and continue to do) as well as you claim. As a breast cancer patient myself, though, I can’t imagine why there are no evidence-based studies supporting Protocel. Is there any reason you and/or the company selling you this stuff aren’t publicizing your miraculous cure in a verifiable, legitimate medical monitoring situation? If it’s truly as great as you claim, then we all want to know about it! My life could be at stake here, and I’d love nothing more than an easy answer like this. What do you have to lose? What does the company have to hide? Why do they need to rely on (potentially) anonymous internet hucksters to become “affiliates” to sell their products?
Also, you said, “…My Oncologist, while a medical establishment skeptic…” Could you clarify this? Any chance your oncologist might be a “naturopathic oncologist,” rather than a licensed medical doctor?
@Orac,
Best of luck at TAM, and thank you SO MUCH! It’s so good to know that we breast cancer survivors/patients have a true evidence-based advocate on our side.
Your point about personal info on pseudonymous posters is well taken and understood, but to be honest, everything that was posted here was found quickly and easily on BCO itself and Google. It’s information that the posters themselves advertise and promote, so it’s kinda disingenuous for them to turn around and pretend that they didn’t want their stuff public. Anyway, point taken.
Oh, and sorry about your laptop, but it’s nothing that your seven-gajillion-dollar salary couldn’t easily replace, eh? LOL!
“By keeping this topic alive, it leads me to believe that deep down in your stainless-steel heart of hearts, you realize that Protocel is the answer that the trillion dollar oncology industry has been dreading for over 40 years.”
I take this response as an admission you are fully aware that Protocel is a complete crock. Thank you for your confession.
@Orac:,
I sincerely apologize for using your blog to rant about the players on BCO. I am told that I am brutally honest even when I should not be. It was wrong of me to out people on BCO, no matter what the reason was. I know all about what happened with you when you were first outed and the sick and obviously untrue statements that were posted about you on the internet. I am thinking of one in particular but it’s too disgusting to bring up.. The AoA dirtbags calling your workplace and trying to get you fired is truly despicable. I’m glad that you were supported and given the green light to continue this blog. I am also aware of tthe other brillant blogger that was not that lucky and do think what happened to him is truly sickening. When I outed these posters from BCO, I rationalized that it was the same thing as outing quacks. One of my biggest problems with alties is the way they use idiotic rationalizations when I call them out on their crap. I see now that I was wrong and resorted to what I accusssed others of. We often accuse others of what we are guilty of ourselves. Dishonesty begins in the home. My heart was in the right place but the way I went about it was wrong.
I ask that you please delete my rants on JoyLiesWithin. As much as I don’t care for this person, she dosent deserve what I dished out to her.
I want to make it perfectly clear, that I nor thenewme have never claimed to be you or Stephen Barrett.. However, we have been accused of this many times. The BCO alties hatred for RI and Quackwatch is palpable. However, I have posted your blog and quackwatch articles many times on that alite boards, giving credit where credit is due. Both websites have covered every kind of quackery posted on the altie boards except drinking copious amounts of Lugols iodine to cure breast cancer. I may be overlooking it but I can’t find anything on this particular subject on either site.
You will never convince the alties that you are not filthy rich. They are sure all oncologists are in cohots with Big Pharma and live like kings and queens in big castles. An altie asked me what the difference was between alt med practionars and oncologists getting rich off of “conventional medicine”. My reply was that oncologists are not rich and they have to work for a living. The oncologists that I know work 5 days a week, 40 plus hours. I know of a 62 year old oncologist who has been practicng for 30 years. She is in her office early in the morning, even before the front office staff. Often she runs over with patients and is out of there after 6:00 pm. She uses vacation time to attend the San Antonio breast cancer symposium every year. I do not know her salary and if I were a betting woman, I would place my money on well under the 7 figure range.
Hey thanks for the tip Sybil. I did edit my occupation to reflect that I’m sharing my personal Protocel success story.
I’m also not going to read or respond anymore to this thread. It has not been plesant to say the least.
Kat out!
Ms. Nagain, why should we believe you?
Hey, Chris – think she’s stick the flounce?
@Mi Dawn;
What is stick the flounce, anyway? This is the second time someone posted this. I’ve never heard of it before.
“Stick the flounce” is a reference to the swirly flounce that you see when a person angrily leaves a room in a huff. And the “stick” part seems to reference the term used when a gymnast does a great dismount, as in “stick the landing.” I found this:
http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Flounce
It looks like a combination of the “stick the landing” of gymnastics, with flouncing out of the room in an angry huff.
@ Black-Cat: Jeez…get with the program 🙂
http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Flounce
Lilady, thanks for the laugh. That describes every alite on BCO to a T. Every time I mentioned tone troll an altie would announce, “violation of forum rules, post reported” That person knows who she is. I just love the honesty amd freedom over here. A spade is called a spade. It’s nice to be back into the real world again where most things make sense.
I was going to join you and Kelly over at “that wretched site of scum and quackery” two weeks ago but I ended spending the entire night with an elderly friend in the ER. who had a hypertensive crisis. I bought her an automatic B/P cuff 4 years ago and she called me and told met that her blood pressure was 210/80 and was having a terrible pressure behind her eyes and should she go back on her baby aspirin. I spent half the night convincing her to go to the ER and the other half at the ER. It wasn’t easy but I finally had to threaten her with, “If you go to bed you might not wake up and I’m calliing your daughter unless you get into the car right now.” It worked
Needless to say I was toast the next morning and pretty much the day after. Next time.
Interesting. So, let me fill in a few inductive syllogisms:
1) If we professed extreme acceptance of Protocel, describing it as the answer that everyone’s been searching for in the cure for cancer, Kat would surely take that as affirmation that Protocel is the ultimate anti-cancer agent. (I’ll just call it “ACBK” for now, for “anti-cancer bee’s knees.”)
Please let us know if you dispute this, Kat.
2) If, as we actually do, we disparage Protocel and call it a “treatment” that has no reliable evidence demonstrating that it works and no prior plausibility that would lead us to guess that it has any good chance of working, Kat takes it as affirmation that Protocel is the ACBK.
Since the responses we described in 1) and 2) pretty much represent the two ends of the spectrum, I think we can safely conclude by induction:
3) No matter what we say to Kat, she will take it as affirmation that Protocel is the ACBK.
Now, for a general principle:
4) In order to have any validity or be of any use, a diagnostic method must have what I will call “discriminatory response.” This means that the diagnostic method will ideally respond “true” when the underlying phenomenon is true, and “false” when the underlying phenomenon is false. The value of the diagnostic method is impaired by any deviations from this schema, to varying degrees depending on the degree and nature of the deviation.
5) A diagnostic method which has NO discriminatory response, which always gives an identical output no matter what input is presented, has zero value.
6) As seen in 3), Kat’s diagnostic method always arrives at the answer “Protocel is the ACBK!!” no matter what input she gets, and therefore her diagnostic method has zero value.
Any part of this you’d like to dispute, Kat?
KatRNagain92 July 12, 10:36 am
I’ve been quietly following along reading the relevent BCO threads (public forum after all) and here’s the “thanks” Kat refers to:
Hilarious. Thanks Kat 🙂
@Sauceress:
For some more laughs go to the search box on BCO and enter “Orac” or “Quackwatch”
Oh and Boudicca (July 11, 5:16 pm) your faux outrage, pearl clutching and teeth gnashing toward a metaphor is noted.
I was initially going to dissect that sad tone trolling attempt and grade it’s elements separately however I decided that if you wish for that kind of personal attention you will definitely need to try harder.
I’m afraid your current attempt barely reaches a pre-school level.
If you should disagree with my assessment, then I’ll look forward to reading any further attempts you may like to offer.
Oh yes, I forgot. Gut feelings and woman’s intuition mean so much more than doctor’s opinions. Vivre constantly quotes from a book written by Christine Northrup (she’s selling this book btw) on gut feeliings. She has repeatedly posted that she spit out her cancer medication (arimidex) and threw the pill bottle across the room because her gut feeling told her to do this. After posting this for the umptemth time, another women just said that she is going to march into her oncologists office and say no to arimidex because her gut feeling is telling her not to take it.
If I were to point this out to the mods, I would get the same canned answer, “vivre is not breaking forum rules, she is merely expressing her opinion”
The mods do not understand the meaning of informed consent. It dosent look like the physician who runs that site does either.
If you want more fun, search for Usana.
Could someone please translate this from whackaloon to English.
What is “the chemical community”?
What on earth could Orac be doing that would have been treason in 1890, but is not treason now?
“Orac is a drone in the chemical community and if this were the 1890 she’d be tried for treason.”
Orac is a female?
They think that I am Orac because I post his blog so much.
@ Black-cat: You were missed at the Ho-Po, but there will be other times to join me there. Besides, you really did a great job caring for your friend.
I really wasn’t kidding when I stated that the alties on BCO have spun themselves right of off this planet. They are waaaay out there still spinning.
Thanks, lilady. Had to prioritize. Wanted to be on that particular one, though, as it dealt with breast cancer quackery. You did a great job yourself, over on the huffpo
lilady
Could be. Near on impossible to determine the gender of a supercomputer posing as a plexiglass box of blinking lights.
Maybe that’s the one on youtube where all the elements are singing and dancing.
I’m still trying to figure out this one from Boudicca. I hear the art of mastering the whackaloon language from the indigenous altie BCO troll tribe is not an easy task. God knows I have tried.
“To those using the French sauce, Denice up there, pleeeeease, you turn my stomach”
Way to go Kat for letting Orac’s “believers” see the truth. Protocel is saving lives!
Orac you must think MD stands for Murder Degree. You give the chemical community a bad name. Shame on you. You are a quack by your own definition.
@Leah – wow, at this point you aren’t even trying…..
My thoughts as well Lawrence. As a troll Leah makes a great sleep aid.
@Leah
Leah please do try to make more of an effort here.
Your feeble trolling attempts make the inanity and arrogance of ignorance displayed by even our most clueless trolls almost seem like pearls of wisdom.
You really are embarrassing yourself.
Again, if you insist on trying your hand at trolling RI, please do try a little harder!
@Black-cat
Thanks for the search terms. Distinctions between the patterns of unique rhetoric favoured by particular posters there continue to emerge and clarify. It’s not too hard to work out.
Orac should lose his license to practice medicine. He is too interested in being a cult leader. You vulnerable so-called science people are under his spell. You all treat his blogs like the bible and questioning what he writes is not encouraged.
Do a search under black-cat’s name at BCO. 99% of her posts are links to Orac’s blogs and nothing else. She also rambles on and on here, talking to herself about how much she abhors those who use alternative cancer treatments and spreading gossip. Sorry those are red flags. She needs deprogramming. I’m sure I’m not the only one who thinks mental illness may be playing a part too.
Here’s what you don’t get, Leah: it’s not that we don’t question the opinions Orac offers or fail to be skeptical of claims he makes because we’re “under his spell”. It’s that orac eliminates the necessity to be skeptical by providing credible objective evidence in their support when he posts them. If alt med advocates would do the same –if they could offer as strong an evidence-based advocacy for their preferred alternative treatments–we’d similarly withold skepticism.
They have not, however.
In lieu of evidence the alt med community relies on gut feelings (aka ‘mommy instinct’), anecdotal accounts, cherry-picked articles (most often either seriously methodolically flawed or which do not in fact support their claims–see the Reiki on Dogs thread for a sterling example), individual testimonies (“After surgery and chemo I tried coffee enemas, and my cancer went away! Obviously it could only have been the coffee enemas!”), and outright lies (“MMS isn’t bleach!”)
All seasoned with a heaping serving of paranoid conspiracy theory (“It’s a plot to reduce the world population!”, “You’re all minions of big pharma!”)
You want us to be as uncritical of alt med claims as we are of science based medicine ‘s claims? Then do the work: secure the funding, establish proof of principle, design the studies, run the trials, publish the results, and convince us.
Really–we’d absolutely love it if we were wrong, you were right and there’s safe and effective cures for cancer and other diseases all wrapped up and ready to go.
Wishing won’t make it so. Insistence won’t make it so. It isn’t religion: fervor isn’t enough.
Sigh–html fail.
You want us to be as uncritical of alt med claims as we are of science based medicine ‘s claims? Then do the work: secure the funding, establish proof of principle, design the studies, run the trials, publish the results, and convince us.
Really–we’d absolutely love it if we were wrong, you were right and there’s safe and effective cures for cancer and other diseases all wrapped up and ready to go.
Wishing won’t make it so. Insistence won’t make it so. It isn’t religion: fervor isn’t enough.
@leah
Project much?
But please keep entertaining us with your pathtetic attempts at ad hominem. I do need a good laugh, and you seem like the perfect dunce to provide some.
What’s ironic is that the Protocel customers are the ones who are in a cult, believing the word of some coal miner who thought up this hotplate garbage in a dream provided by a god. All that Jesus crap and “praise god who saw fit to heal me” on those websites and the belief that a god is working to heal patients is more cultlike than anything I’ve ever seen on RI.
Leah shows no respect toward Orac and the many years of study he devoted to become a surgeon and researcher, then all the years he’s spent trying to save lives. What a scumbag, no matter what name she uses.
And what the hell is the chemical community? Does she mean Big Pharma?
Does this help?
Somebody left an italics HTML tag open and now all the comments are in italics. Let’s see if I can fix that . Testing…
Let me try fixing it another way. I think this might work.
The italic tag was closed but didn’t work. Counterintuitive, but this might work Or perhaps not.
This?
Maybe Protocel can cure italics? Or some MMS might work? I already tried some laetrile, so now I’m injecting baking soda into the internet. Anyone got any antineoplastons?
@Marc Stephens Is Insane
“Leah shows no respect toward Orac and the many years of study he devoted to become a surgeon and researcher, then all the years he’s spent trying to save lives. What a scumbag, no matter what name she uses.”
You’ve got to be kidding. All chemical school does is deconstruct common sense. MDs are still being taught that vitamins and nutrition are quackery. The zero tolerance for opposition on RI is also a joke.
Kat had a PETscan. Because her husband’s GP advised her to try Protocel and it happened to work for her, she can start planning her life instead of her funeral.
For those of you who are “chemo survivors”, if you keep relying on Orac’s blogs as your one-stop source of information about alternative medicine, he’ll drive you to an early grave. I’m just sayin’ don’t be so quick to drink his Kool-aid information. You don’t want to be a victim of The Orac Massacre.
@Leah
I somehow doubt that. I’d be more inclined to think that they are taught that vitamins and nutrition are essential to good health, but they are not cure-alls that can treat every ailment under the sun.
What zero tolerance? I’ve seen lots of asking for evidence and none provided. See. You have an opportunity here to change people’s minds. All it takes is posting links to good-quality studies showing that Protocel is a) effective and b) safe. Instead, all we get are anecdotes, like this:
So, what’s it going to be? Are you going to actually show us decent evidence that it works and is safe, or are you going to just keep slinging insults and stories around?
Just one point (I have to resist picking apart every line that Leah crapped out of her keyboard).
Leah, you sneer at the word chemical. I presume you use it in the context of Big Pharma. Chemicals are bad, mkay. So what the hell is Protecel? Certainly not nasty chemicals, oh no.
I will never believe a word you say if you insist on trying to convince us that a real, medical doctor (you wrote GP) advised someone to try Protocel.
And vitamins and nutrition are not medicine. They have never cured anyone of anything.
Leah: Please provide corroboration for your claim that MD’s are being taught that nutrition is quackery. That has not been my experience as a patient since about 1989.
Except that they have. Specifically, vitamin deficiencies (eg, scurvy) and malnutrition. But they generally don’t do very well against acute disorders, especially those with external causes (eg, infectious disease). They are a “general health” thing, rather than a treatment for disease.
@Marc Stephens Is Insane
Scurvy.
Leah: Why does the evil, evil Orac allow you to post here? Surely, he must be terrified that your mighty blasts of truth will destroy his whole world – and yet here your posts are, while alt-med sites routinely censor any opponents who might scare off the marks. It’s an interesting pattern, isn’t it?
WKV,
Yes, I was going to add another note saying “except malnutrtion” or vitamin deficiencies. Obviously vitamins and/or nutrition cannot cure cancer, AIDS, autism or other illnesses, which is what Leah and many alties are implying. Emphasis on the “lying” syllable.
I’m not against prescription drugs. I’m against drugs that are don’t work and come with a long list of dangerous side effects.
Vitamins and nutrition are medicines. You can’t just swallow a bunch of pills everyday and hope for the best. What’s wrong with you people?
@Leah – when you claim that nutrition and vitamins can cure all, yes, that’s quackery. But, my doctor has advised good nutrition and supplements (when needed), along with exercise since I started seeing him.
You have this very biased view of the medical professional, because you believe in the “cure-all” which doesn’t exist. If you actually spoke to a real doctor, I believe you’d find that reality if very different than your own set of very clouded beliefs.
@Leah
Yet, here you are cheerleading for Protocel. Of course, my assessment may be incorrect. All you need to do is show me evidence to the contrary.
All drugs have side effects, some potentially dangerous. The trick is in balancing the risks vs. the benefits. For someone without cancer, taking a cancer drug would be stupid: no benefit, lots of risks. For someone with cancer, there is risk, but greater benefit (usually…depends on the value they place on living vs. dying).
So you’d not object to them being regulated like medicines, then, instead of dietary supplements?
Which drugs are those, then, and what evidence demonstrates that they don’t work. Be as specific as possible.
As for “long lists of dangerouse side effects”, recall that it ‘s not a question of “Are their side effects?” but “Is the potential risk greater than the ptoential beneift?”
Consider steroids, for example: lots of frequent and nasty side effects associated with long term use. Risk versus benefit clearly argues you they shouldn’t be prescribed trivially, e.g. to improve athletic performance.
On the other hand, if you’re thinking you might just want to hang on to that newly transplanted heart, liver or kidney for a while…
Long will be remembered the time JGC accidentally italicized the Internet.
test test test
@Narad
That used to happen pretty frequently over at Bad Astronomy.
testtest test test
Leah, Protocel girl isn’t real. She/he is following a clever marketing trick. Go on a forum where there are potential customers. Create a userID, a diagnosis and a sympathetic first post. Spend a little time drawing people in with your story then start proclaiming your progress. None of which anyone can verify. Slip in a website address and hope the mods dont catch you, or perhaps don’t care. At one point when the thread was fading she/he bumped it up again by whining she didn’t understand why no one seemed interested to follow her.
The cheering squad came back. I’m sure they have all found their way to a Protocel marketing site. Amway could learn from these people or perhaps they already have.
@Redloh: It’s not important if Leah is real or not. All we care about is if she can prove what she says. She can’t. All she has is anecdotes. If people come to RI, read the whole thread and STILL spend their money on the quackery….well, I feel sorry for them. But adults can do as they wish, even if it’s not an intelligent choice.
dang, my attempt at killing the italic thread failed. Guess we’ll have to wait for Orac to fix it.
I love the people who claim we are brainwashed, undissenting, etc. They’ve obviously never been around when PC vs Mac is discussed…..
@leah
You owe me a new irony meter.
What you’ve got is <i><b><i /></b>. The (autogenerated?) third tag is the problem; nonvoid tags aren’t self-closing, so this is treated as yet another open ital.
@Redloh
Kat is not some random poster. She has been a BCO member since 2010. Go back and read her posts.
What’s great is her MO wants to continue to track her progress. Unlike a certain breast surgeon whose name rhymes with “quack”, Kat’s MO is at least keeping an open mind and is not in denial, pretending that Protocel doesn’t work.
The whole attempt to kill the italics (especially with MMS, laetrile, baking soda and antineoplastons) gave me the best laugh all day!
@Leah – one thing I learned years ago with the internet is that people can be whomever they want and do whatever they want. Once I was diagnosed with a difficult to treat and disabling illness, Mr Woo was on the internet buying every cure he could find. Thank goodness that I got him to at least slow down after awhile.
It isn’t wrong to ask for studies. Studies are a good thing. Human beings have issues with being easily gullible. You don’t want hope and suggestibility playing a part in results. That is what double-blinding is all about.
I know this is an anecdote, but you love them, so, maybe you will be swayed. A woman with my illness launched her own radio show, etc., pushing an alkaline, juicing/veggie smoothie diet as a cure for our illness. She had a FB page that she ended up deleting when she realized she got too many questions on it – she was honest about going to bed three days here, four days there because she was too sick to function. People had trouble believing her juicing/smoothie diet was making her better if she was sick so much.
Long story short, that was two years ago. Not only did it not cure her; her daughter, who I’m sure was also converted to her ultimately perfectly healthy lifestyle, died of cancer. She no longer pushes that “cure” for anyone. Instead she recommends a much more reasonable, science-based diet that includes meats that are grass-fed, free range chicken/eggs, etc., avoiding large quantities of processed foods, adding moderate exercise, and never giving up trying various treatment modalities and maintaining hope. I am not sure if she still does her internet radio show or not. If she does, I hope it reflects a similar amount of moderation now.
When I was a child I was taught never to trust anyone who said they could cure anything, or who told me I could get tons of money only working a few hours a week, etc. There is no product on earth that will cure all diseases. Our bodies don’t work that way. There’s also no entry-level job on earth that has no requirements for education, etc., where you can walk in and make $200,000/year working 10 hours a week.
Some of us abandon wishful thinking and the strange beliefs as we grow up. It’s better to be in the real world in have hope that has percentages and experience behind it than chasing a fantasy that does nothing for us.
*…to be in the real world and have hope that has…
I’ve been a lurker @ BCO for a while (I’m a BC patient), and one here for a shorter period.
While I am grateful for some of the information I’ve found on BCO, I am repulsed by the altie forums, by the way they are (not) managed, and by the viciousness and immaturity of many of the regulars. Black-cat, thenewme, rose, and others: I came here, not to BCO, to say thank you. Black-cat, you confirmed much of what I suspected some of the backstories and identities are. And I really enjoyed your “how-to-be-a-quack” post.
Orac, thank you for your insolence and your care, and for providing room for us.
Now there’s another altie on BCO going to start Protocel and PawPaw since her previous alternative treatment has caused more positive lymph nodes. Surgery anyone? How stupid can some people be. If she had had chemo in the first place she probably wouldn’t be in this situation.
Leah – “MDs are still being taught that vitamins and nutrition are quackery”
My onc must be an alternative doc since he makes me take supplements.
Anybody know what happenend to Chillipad2, the black salve lady? I would ask on the other site but might be accused of being anti-alternative for even asking. I think the “tumors” that were coming out were just scabs from injury from the black stuff, and the Juices oozing were just pus from the inflammation/infection with the black stuff. If I wrote that, I would be accused of being a troll.
I have been skeptical of Protocel lady from the getgo. All anybody but Kat knows is that she said she measured her nodes and they decreased in size and that she had a really great CT scan Oh and she said her onc is impressed.
Now when my boys were teenagers I used to tell them that girls they met on the internet could be 40 year old men. Anybody can SAY what they want.
Where is the proof?
As for MDs and nutrition, in the last five years 3 doctors have given me nutritional advice. That is met with skepticism by the alties on bco but Kat’s magical shrinking lumps are not. Go figure.
@followerfrombco
Questions were being asked about whether this person would submit this stuff she called tumors falling off her body to a pathologist through the onc she claimed was monitoring her but who she ultimately said she was too tired to see anymore.
As with many of these types suddenly she feels the questions amount to being bullied and moves on to greener pastures.
I believe this person was a front for the website she posted. A website selling black salve. I think it was in Indonesia.
I don’t think Chilli was fake – she was in a terrible place after having gone the alternative route – I guess she had to try something as conventional docs offer her no hope. She is a great example of how alternatives DO NOT work. She had been posting for a long time before she started talking about the Black Salve.
Chilli is real I exchanged pms with her. She was way too detailed and accurate not to be. I knew her from impositive’s “cancer is a fungas” thread two years ago. She did try to warn impositive and wornoutmom of what happened to hear when she tried alternatives. I was not aware at the time she was an MLMer and had a website announcing how she cured herself with natural methods. I felt bad for lettng her know that black salve was a scam but it had to be done. I felt a moral obligation to do so. So Leah, aka JoyLiesWithin, yes you were right on that assumtion of me. You, on the other hand seem to be morally and ethically bankrupt. What kind of person would cheer a stage one person on not to get evidence based medicine over some pipe dream, and not only hide the fact that this said woman progressed to stage four, but would actually make a statement on the BCO atie forum that this women is doing just fine and dandy. Especially when this women iis very sick and in trouble. I would think a reasonable and rational person at this point would intervene and help her. You, however ignored her (giving her a shout out on BCO when I already made this clear dosent count) This makes you look like a real dirtbag. I suggest you take that finger you are pointing and point it right back at yourself. What’s that sayiny? For every finger you point there are 3 pointing right back at you. I would think a reasonable and rational person would do a 180 after that one experience and would not only start looking at evidenced based treatment but trying to counsel her abandoned friend on said treatment ESPECIALLY if SHE, herself, had evidence based treatment that put her cancer in remission. But you are not a reasonable and rationable person are you?
Furthermore. you continue to be the residient tone troll on the altie boards of BCO doing everything in your power to bash evidenced based medicine and prove alternative works. IMHO, you are a moral degenerate.
Do you see yourself as a soldier in the health freedom war. Do you rationalize that your ex buddy impositive, wornoutmom, and chilli are all acceptable casualties of this war? Please tell me, because trying to figure this out has kept me awake at night.
@Rosemary, just so you know, Protocel is not for those who are her2 +. You posted pictures of yourself on BCO. I have to be honest, you look really pasty and in poor shape. That’s probably why no one believes you were given advice about nutrition from your doctors. The truth is your cardiologist and oncologist referred you to a dietitian after your treatments. However, if you had a naturopathic doctor advising you throughout your treatments, your body wouldn’t be such a wreck now and your treatments would not have nearly killed you. But noooooo, Orac said, “naturopathic doctors are just quacks”, and being the loyal follower that you are, you believed him.
@Redloh, it’s too bad Chilli left. If black-cat did not have a such a horrible melt down after Chilli posted about the success she was having with the black slave protocol, we’d know how she is doing today. I just hope and pray that black-cat didn’t push her off the edge and she is still alive.
@AFriend, the person you are referring to was not a good candidate for chemo. She has a neurological condition.
The vast majority of the women who turn to alternative cancer treatments do so because either 1) surgery alone is enough and they have found safer options, 2) conventional medicine has failed them, 3) another medical condition is stopping them from doing chemotherapy and/or radiation, or 4) they are terrified that conventional medicines will take their lives. Too add, the overwhelming number of distressing discussions about vomiting, bloody teeth, uterine cancer, fibroids, mouth sores, loss of libido, hearing loss, severe depression, neuropathy, heart attacks etc. on BCO’s conventional medicine threads is enough to scare the dickens out of anyone and send them running to the alternative forum, so members are truly grateful it’s available. It’s mainly those who work in the medical field, however, who wish it would be torn down. They hate the “alties”, the same way the devil hates holy water. Eventually they’ll wake up and figure out that we are not the enemy.
@black-cat , wornoutmom has posted that her alt treaments are working like a charm. You’ve seen her videos. She looks amazing. Your missinformation is getting so old and tired. (((((YAWN)))))
Leah: you still haven’t explained why the pro-health blogs allow “alties” to post here.
Wornoutmom is stage 4 and getting Herceptin and Zometa before she visits that crazy cocaine addicted quack, Thomas Lodi. The evidence based medicine that she is taking cancels out any claim for the “alternative cure”. She hasen’t updated her blog in a month. It’s really sad for us to see that but you in your infinite wisdom just know she’s cured.
Leah @July 13, 9:39 pm
There’s no preview function here. That means you need to proof read for yourself.
I am blessed, obviously. My aunt is at this point a three-year survivor of breast cancer after conventional therapy. Her husband is a four-year-survivor of a more aggressive prostate cancer after conventional therapy. My mother-in-law is an almost two-year survivor of lymphoma after conventional therapy, and on the non-survivor side where I knew a lot about their therapies, Mr Woo’s father survived more than ten years with treatment after a leukemia diagnosis (he decided to end treatment when his disease got too bad) and a good friend of mine from church with a particularly nasty type of prostate cancer (had a perfectly normal PSA screening two months earlier, then suddenly was very sick and they found advanced prostate cancer with bone mets and a very high PSA number) lived for two years after a stage-IV diagnosis with no surgery.
They all used scientifically sound, evidence-based treatments. And though they had their bad days (for my mother-in-law, the first two days after each treatment; when they did further tests on her cancer it wouldn’t respond to the newer monoclonal antibody treatments so they had to use older types of chemo; I was very disappointed for her), most were grateful for the time they got and knowing that there was evidence as to how likely they were to have the treatment work and that there was an educated person watching their treatment, their bodies’ reactions and adjusting and changing the treatment as necessary to give them the best chance they could.
I am probably also lucky to have a chronic, difficult to treat illness and have been around with it long enough to know that usually the people who are most vocal are also the ones who are most miserable. You don’t “see” the people who are coping because they are too busy coping and living life to complain about how miserable they are on the internet. People newly diagnosed or newly starting treatment will go to support forums to ask questions and discuss their problems to get insight on treatments they could add to treat bad side effects, reactions, etc. Also to get good information from other patients on other treatments they might not have heard of.
Sadly, “alties” tend to not just say, “this is another treatment, discuss it with your doctor and see if it is compatible or an alternative. No, they say things like, “this treatment actually cures a lot of cancers, but your doctor doesn’t want you to know about it because big pharma actually owns them and if it were to compete with them it would drive them out of business” if they are on the “conspiracy” side of life, or “this treatment actually cures a lot of cancers, but your doctor was never taught about it in medical school because medical school curricula are written by drug companies to sell their products” – it makes the doctors at least sound a bit nicer – then they’re just uninformed idiots and not intentionally poisoning and killing every patient they come in contact with when the “cure” has been readily available all this time.
Yes, people who believe in evidence, people who believe in science-based medicine, will challenge anything that has nothing that is known to affect any type of treatment for anything. I’m also known to challenge other things, like DH’s suggestion that we buy a magnetic water softener since it won’t use salt. Nothing I know suggests that magnetic fields will change the structure of water and/or affect whether or not it is “hard” or “soft.”
Love the “same way the devil hates holy water” – the deeper implications that the people who insist on treatments that are proven to work are evil and the people insisting that rubbing black salve that has been known to melt off people’s noses on a cancer patient’s breasts will draw out and kill the cancer are saints.
I’m neither evil nor sainted. I am, however, someone who gets frustrated watching unscrupulous people prey on the fear of patients, take their money and leave them sicker than they were when they started. People at least deserve to have informed, realistic consent and a treatment that has a chance to help them provided by a provider who understands the human body, disease and the way the treatment works.
@black-cat, please read carefully and get your facts straight. wornoutmom had IPT and Herceptin. Go back and read her thread and blog. Be happy for her. She is doing great. Dr, Lodi cleaned up the mess conventional medicine left behind.
Apr 28, 2012 01:51 PM, by wornoutmom
“As those who have followed me know I had horrible health care that left me riddled with fear. After being misdiagnoed I still tried surgery with my providers which was a disaster. 3 weeks after surgery my lump returned. I was told it was scar tissue. I had so many mistakes on my case it lead to an 8 page complaint letter of these mistakes. I literally had to take an anti-anxiety medication just to walk through the doors. I can’t go into specifics at this time. I plan to fully do this once the matter is resolved. So fast forward and low and behold that lump was a reoccurance. My lump was in the chest wall which I have since learned from other patients with the same lump there are doctors who refuse to perform sugery without treatment first as it is to hard to get clear margins. This is why I think my biggest mistake given my type of tumor was to have surgery. I spent more than two years on birth control pills with cancer and it only spread to 3A. A few months later I saw the results of my surgery.
After several complaints I finally got a PET scan. I had a reoccuance in the exact same spot which I believe was the “scar tissue”. I had a tumor on my spine, innumerable bone mets, widespread lymph nodes, and in one month with tykerb and tamoxifen it had traveled to my liver. Due to fear I only trusted them to prescribe pills. I arrived at my clinic in Sept 1 and received care until the end of Dec. I was on a scaled down plan due to finances. On Dec 8th I had a follow up PET scan. With a full head of hair and no suffering or effects it revealed that all my lymph nodes were clear, both tumors were gone, the liver was clear, and a significant decrease in my bone mets! NO sufferering,…”
Now I did it. I didn’t close blockquote!
Did it work?
@Leah – wornoutmom is probably doing well because of the herceptin, nothing else. I do know other ladies whose mets have responded just as well and are NED from herceptin.
and if she had had the proper treatment in the first place, she probably wouldn’t have ended up stage IV
The last time wornoutmom posted on her blog was may 2. She is getting Herceptin and Zometa at a real medical clinic with real physicians. Afterwards she goes to Lodi’s “Oasis of Hope” for IPT, Ozone therapy and vitamin C infusions.
She can no longer afford Vitamin C infusions so she must resort to buying cheaper compounded sublingual vitamin C from the clinic. She has very painful ulcers in her mouth from this. The infusions were $1,000 a week.
You neglected to include this statement from her on that pet scan:
“Next he explained that my bones still had to many spots to count but that there was a significant decrease in the amount of cancer cells. He explained that they are harder to get to than tumors as they are out in the open and it would take a little more time.”
You and I get 2 different meanings from her blog. I see a 37 year old woman with a young family that may be stage four because she waited too long to get treatment. It’s impossible to say. She has young childen and is really sick now. Cancer has broken one of the vertebrae in her back and she is in a lot of pain. She regrets that she cannot hold her child. She thinks that she has failed as a mother because she can not properly care for her children.
I was going to write more but it’s time to step away from the computer. It took me 3 tries even to get through her blog.
Oh, I would not be dissing on anyone’s looks chubby.
I have to add that wornoutmom has not failed as a mother. Being sick is not her fault. She did not do anything to cause this her breast cancer. Just had to come back and write that.
I hit the submit button too soon. From what I read, wornoutmom is a superb mother. Bad mothers don’t worry about failing their children.
I’m sorry black-cat and motheroffoursons. If wornoutmom had relied on conventional treatments alone, her children would have no mom and she’d just be a statistic.
Also, re-read her posts, watch her videos, and stop seeing only what you want to see. Your posts make no sense at all.
Black-cat, you can’t just pull figures out your bum bum. Vitamin C infusions do not cost $1000 per week.
Wornoutmom is doing great and Dr.Lodi is an angel for doing what he does best. That’s cleaning up the train wreck that breast surgeons and oncologists leave behind.
This thread is getting silly and I have work to do. Thanks Orac for letting me post on RI. Take care black-cat and be good to yourself and others. I’m out.
I’ll take the under.
By the way, I noticed the italic thing happen at Dr. Novella’s blog, Neurologica:
http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/facial-processing/
Is Leah talking about Thomas Lodi? The homeopath? The cokehead? the doctor who threatens bloggers? The guy who uses dangerous and useless insulin treatments? The guy who had his medical license stripped away in Nevada? This Dr. Lodi?
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2011/12/02/a-homeopathic-physician-in-arizona-vs-science/
yep, the one and only
And cancer patients would rather trust this criminal than real doctors and real medicine?
Bet he’s getting richer than Orac selling his witchcraft. Protocel is one thing, but homeopathy?! Sheesh! You gotta’ draw the line somewhere…
That was a feeble joke. Protocel is just as useless as homeoquackery or “energy healing”. That insulin protocol also looks very suspicious. Never tested, no trials, no evidence, no interest. Sounds familiar?
It seems that way, Marc. Hard to believe that this drug addict who lost his Medical license is now “practicing” on patients.
@marc: I posted wornoutmoms blog on this site and it is still up. She’s seeing Lod and if you read her blog you will see what a real heartless scumbag he is. Warning: have some tissues handy.
Black cat – I sent you a PM on BCO
@Leah – wornoutmom delayed having conventional treatment and went ot stage IV very quickly.
And once again, Leah “argues” by claiming to know things that she cannot possibly know. Anyone in the world can claim “Why, if something that didn’t happen had happened, the consequences would have been thus and such, which would have wholly supported my view over yours!”
I realize the chances of Leah sticking the flounce are low (isn’t this her second flounce?) but I hope she follows through this time: her posts aren’t even intelligent enough for refuting them to have much educational value.
There were a whole series of comment on BCO about how wornoutmom was going for treatment but couldn’t say where. I do not know why.
Now Dr Burzynski is referred to as Dr B because of the “controversy” regarding his treatment. I guess they are trying to stay under the radar of the search function.
@Rose – the hope is the TX Medical Board will finally shut him down, though I would expect, should that happen, that he would just head over the border and set up shop in Mexico…..
@Lawrence
My hope also.
Conventional treatments do work, says the five year survivor who swims laps and kayaks and keeps up with nine grandchlidren under he age of 7 (usually only 3-6 of them at a time) oh, and works full time. I know they work because of the research articles my oncologist gave me when I was diagnosed. .
@Rosemary
The B9 lump you found in “the good breast” a weeks ago is a major warning sign. I hope you recognize the seriousness of HER2+ and learn to put down the cakes and chocolates and make healthier choices. Relying only on bias chemical studies is not smart.
It was really nice of you to buy the kayak for your DH though, and glad to see you’re swimming and getting in touch with nature. I love to swim too.
Yeah, ’cause it’s far smarter to rely on a chemical like Protocel which is sold through MLM without any studies verifying that survival of people who take it is anything other than coincidence. Pfft.
Anyone want to take bets on how many more flounces Leah will fail to stick?
Lawrence (and anyone else who might know):
The last I heard, the April hearings in Texas against Stan were postponed to June 27. I’ve been looking everywhere for some follow-up but couldn’t find any. Since Burzynski’s name came up here, I thought I’d mention it in case someone can check into it.
I doubt if he’ll go to Mexico: he and his wife are in the mid-70s and live in a $6 million house in a gated community in Houston. Stan’s son, a newly-minted MD since last year, will probably just take over the shop of horrors after Stan “retires”.
I always wish that it was easier to remove these hucksters from “practice.” It seems they always find a way to get around things.
DanielChapterOne is another really nasty bit of work. They are supplement manufacturers who run a radio show diagnosing and treating every illness under the sun with their supplements. An FTC ruling made them send out letters telling people their claims were unfounded and unresearched, etc., which they finally did after a year of court appeals. They were also told they could no longer have people call in and then tell them what supplements to take to “cure” them.
They worked around that by having existing customers already using the prescribed products that had their now banned literature call in on their 800 number and offer “advice and anecdotes” about their own experiences with the products… i.e., someone calls in and says that their mother is having side effects they don’t like with her blood pressure and statin medications. The owners of the supplement manufacturing company then say, “Can anyone out there who believes in health freedom share their experiences about what may help?”
Then a “client” (who knows if they even are, or just employees who are prepared with scripts and instructions) calls in and explains that all doctor prescribed medications are dangerous chemicals and tells them the “all natural” (therefore, obviously harmless?) supplements to order and take instead, as well as advising them to “quit the poison” because it will interfere with their healing.
Their practice includes cancer, where they recommend things like shark cartilage supplements, a supplement smoothie mix (they recommend that to everyone and it costs nearly $200/month to use it as directed), etc.
Drives me nuts – the whole time the show is going on they are reading stories that create distrust of medicine and pharmaceuticals, of course… they are the only authority that has the patient (er um customer?)’s best interest at heart.
Hmmm… doctors don’t get a dime off of the medications they prescribe me. Daniel Chapter One, though, makes a profit. Conflict of interest?
Mrs Woo,
I did spend some time at the DC1 wesbsite a few weeks ago, and beside all the ludicrous medical woo woo they are working it from a religious angle, claiming “persecution” for their beliefs when challenged by the law. I thought they were going to intentionally defy some court order to create an issue. Didn’t the leader publicly burn some legal documents in contempt?
This is kind of what Jim “not so” Humble did, and is definitely what L. Ron Hubbard did with $cientology. Once you’re a “religion” you can cry discrimination whenever you need to, and you can ignore laws most everybody else follows.
Humble calls his treatments “sacraments”, if you’ve ever wandered over to the Genesis Church II scam he set up to peddle MMS. There are no fees per se in $cientology, but every cent handed over is considered a “donation”.
Real religion is bad enough, but then you get these guys who huddle under the umbrella of religion to get away with murder. Sometimes literally.
@Marc Stephens
Re: “And cancer patients would rather trust this criminal than real doctors and real medicine?”
Yeah, but even worse, IMO, is their recruiting efforts on cancer patient support forums like BCO in order to send along more victims…errr…I mean patients, maybe in return for that week’s infusion, or maybe for a few affiliate bucks to supplement the bake sales, yard sales, poker tournaments, and other types of fundraisers they promote to pay for the “treatment.”
To me, it’s heartbreaking and tragic for the patient herself. But when she goes on to recruit other victims by singing their praises and misleading others, it’s a HUGE line she’s crossed.
I’m waiting, too, for news about Burzynski (Dr. B, or “The Good Doctor.”).
@MrsWoo,
That sounds exactly like the kinds of posts that bother me on BCO. The conspiracy stuff. The “I don’t sell it (directly) but I’ll tell you how miraculous it is and where to buy it…” The Health Freedom stuff. The testimonials. The “poor little persecuted me” stuff.
ACK. It’s way too early on Saturday to be this riled up!
@JK – you’re welcome! (And thanks!)
Have you ever read up about Mannatech? The manufacturer isn’t allowed to say it cures cancer, but they get their “independent retailers” (it’s a MLM scheme, like Amway) to say it discreetly or hint at it . “It’s helped other people with cancer…” is what they say.
There have been hidden camera exposes of Mannatech sellers at town hall meetings or “health expos” claiming it can cure cancer, and lots more, but as long as the company itself doesn’t make the claim, they can wash their hands of any wrongdoing on the part of their resellers. “Hey, we can’t responsible for what our retailers are telling people.” Is that what’s called plausible deniability?
The product in question (I forget the actual name) is just a form of sugar.
Thenewme
It is no longer morning here but I think I will tend to my knitting (actually sewing).. It is a much too beautiful Saturday to be thinking about people who only see others as sources of income.
The sugar stuff from Mannatech is called Ambrotose. I think Oprah or one of the network news magazine shows did a profile of a cancer patient who eschewed conventional care in favour of Ambrotose. It just “felt right” to her. She ended up writing a defensive letter to all the critics explaining that she knows what she’s doing and please leave her alone to make her own choices. I think there was also a religious angle.
Here’s what Wikipedia says about the company’s deceptive practices:
ABC investigation
A 20/20 undercover investigation that aired June 1, 2007 on ABC Television showed Mannatech’s sales associates teaching sales recruits how to target Mannatech products to patients with specific illnesses in a manner that purportedly does not violate U.S. federal law, including U.S. Food and Drug Administration regulations, by avoiding direct claims that the products cure any particular diseases.[13] Mannatech CEO Sam Caster was interviewed for the show and told 20/20 that Mannatech makes no specific health claims about its products. “I don’t think dietary supplements treat, cure, mitigate anything. It is not meant to substitute a doctor’s oversight, but it plays an important role in the whole health equation.”[36]
@trini gyul (thenewme)
Allyuh too dotish.You luv too much commess. Protocel doh work fah triple negative (or HER2+) breast cancer. Tell yah fren Rosemary dat.
@Rose, you’re right. I have tons to do!
@Marc, yup. Mannatech is discussed there too, but at least on BCO, Usana and Neways are more miraculous (profitable?)
@Leah,
HUH???
Leah:
Why don’t you get your own blog…instead of clogging up this one, which is hosted by a breast cancer surgeon and breast cancer researcher.
I suggest we ignore the sockies who are trying to take over this blog.
@Mark Stevens is Insane on Mannatech
@MSII – I find it very ironic that these “naturalists” have no problem supporting the clear-cutting of the rain forests or mass-killings of multiple shark species to support their natural remedies, but when Pharmaceutical companies are able to actual synthesize the stuff the works, all of a sudden, it is bad?
I will never get these people, and never even want to try.
Here’s part of the ABC 20/20 transcript of the Ambrotose expose. Notice you can substitute any quackery (MMS, Protocel, baking soda, etc.) for the Ambrotose and the story is very familiar.
“Is this truly a grass-roots, word-of-mouth miracle? Can a nutritional supplement actually cure cancer?
Angie Rhoads is betting her life that it can.
Most people would say that Rhoads has had the most horrible luck in the world. The 22-year old lost her mother to a hemorrhage and her father to a fast-growing brain tumor. Then last year, as she was about to graduate from a college in the Midwest, doctors discovered that she too had a brain tumor. Rhoads’ classmates rallied around her and raised the money for an operation.
“You know how everyone says, ‘Well, it’s not brain surgery?’ I’m like, well, yeah it is,” said Rhoads.
Surgeons got almost all of the tumor, but were forced to leave two areas behind to avoid paralyzing her. Rhoads’ oncologist told her she stood a good chance if she underwent an immediate course of radiation and chemotherapy.
But Rhoads had a different idea. She had heard from a friend and from testimonials that Mannatech’s Ambrotose would make her cancer go away, without the terrible side effects of drugs and radiation. She turned down the doctor’s recommendation in favor of a sugar pill.
She said her doctors were not pleased with her decision. “They pretty much said, ‘If you were my daughter you would be doing chemo and radiation,'” said Rhoads.
Rhoads explained that she and one of her doctors agreed that she can always start chemo and radiation later if her cancer starts to grow, but for now she is sticking with Ambrotose.
Although she would never counsel others to forgo medical treatment, Rhoads believes so much in Ambrotose that she even began going on cancer survivor Web sites to recommend it to other cancer patients.”
The full transcript, incliuding the lies their sales people are trained to tell:
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3228488&page=1
@Lawrence,
LOL! There’s a huge 300+ page thread called “natural girls” on the breast cancer support forum, where the alties discuss all their “natural” treatments like coffee enemas, supplements by the bucketsful, bioidentical hormone therapy, oil pulling, topical and oral iodine for breast cancer, baking soda-maple syrup recipes, etc.
Natural??? LOL
How do they even know the manufacturer really puts shark cartilage in there? Supplements have no regulations, so maybe it’s really just a goldfish fin. Or no fins at all.
Can vegetarians and vegans take shark cartilage? Inquiring minds want to know.
thenewme: what’s oil pulling? I know about all the other crap but that one is new to me. Looks like Mr. Google and I will spend some time together.
Re: “Although she would never counsel others to forgo medical treatment, Rhoads believes so much in Ambrotose that she even began going on cancer survivor Web sites to recommend it to other cancer patients.”
AAAACCCCKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!
I’m truly stunned how common this is, though, and never would have believed it if I hadn’t seen it for myself.
Kat’s husband is also promoting protocel.
Oil pulling – you know, sucking oil constantly through your teeth for a half hour instead of brushing your teeth, to remove ….. TOXINS!
You know, one of those miraculous cancer-curing (or is it cancer-preventing?) treatments! Especially effective if done while “tapping” your meridians, followed up with a baking soda-syrup green smoothie, and then meditating with a coffee enema in place and a tinfoil beanie firmly in place.
thenewme:
Here’s the rebuttal from Angie Rhoads to the 20/20 piece. She defends her decision to use Ambrotose, and claims she was set up by 20/20. Of course at the end we get all the religious woo.
http://theroadtoemmaus.org/EM/Fox/MTech/AngieRhoads.pdf
@thenewme, I’m glad you’re making a real effort to get back to your island roots and become a “natural girl”.
Alternative Forum
Jun 13, 2012 10:11 PM thenewme wrote:
“..Yes, I’ve read about diet with regards to TNBC, and I do consider it very useful and (dare I say it…?) proven. I’m also in the ENERGY clinical trial, in which the aim is to investigate the effects of healthy diet, exercise, and lifestyle on recurrence.”
Tell the other followers more about your new natural regimen. Enquiring minds want to know.
Is anyone else confused? I can’t tell what is being said by Leah and the responses by thenewme are not clear to me either.
Marc Stevens, you are also a Canadian, can you help?
@Marc – yep, looks like her rebuttal is straight out of the playbook!
@Leah, I believe you have me confused with someone else with the moniker “thenewme.” I guess your Google skills need refinement. I don’t know her from Adam, but your derogatory comments are pretty racist and inappropriate, IMHO.
In any case, the post you quoted above IS mine. I’m not sure what more you want to know. Yep, diet is especially important for TNBC (triple neg), and we don’t have any hormonal or other options beyond surgery/rads/chemo, like other subtypes do.
All my doctors (oncologist, radiologist, primary care doc, even my kids pediatrician) understand and promote/discuss the importance of a healthy diet, exercise, and other lifestyle choices in everyone, not just cancer patients. That’s not alternative! It’s just plain common sense and good advice.
I was randomized into the “less intense” arm of the ENERGY trial, which I was disappointed about, but I do think the trial has great goals, and it sure goes against the common altie cry of “nobody ever studies or promotes nutrition/exercise/etc!” Again, I’m not sure what your point is.
@Agashem,
Sorry. I’m kind of confused too! I’m happy to clarify anything unclear about my responses.
I’m not sure who Leah is or what she’s trying to do here, other than discredit me, which (hopefully) isn’t working, since I have nothing to hide or discredit!
Agashem,
The trouble is we’re still in italic hell so it’s hard to blockquote or identify quotes within a post. I am as confused as you sometimes about who is saying what.
Leah did post one comment that wasn’t even English. I think she was trying to make some point. If so, it didn’t work.
Why, Leah…it almost sounds like thenewme (gasp!) talked to her doctor!!!!!! Every doctor I know of recommends diet, exercise and other lifestyle changes for good health and to help,treat health problems. Why, my own doctor made me wait 2 whole years before putting me on blood pressure medication, having me lose weight, decrease the salt in my diet, etsc.
I was so annoyed, and couldn’t believe he refused to give me evil medications.
/snark
So, I am not the only one whose MD talked to them about nutrition. Not a dietician, an MD. In my case 3 different MDs for 3 different issues. That is because good diet is common sense and good medicine, not alternative medicine. I limit salt and foods that cause migraines. i don’t follow the diet I was given for high cholesterol because my ratio was 2.1 the last time it was tested
I have a hard time understanding some of the posts too.
@Marc Stephems
Note that the Angie Rhods story is five years old. Looks like this is the current story:
http://www.headforthecure.org/columbia-mo/keeping-faith/angie-rhoads
Very sad that she’s now facing another brain surgery, no thanks to Ambrotose
@thenewme, I know exactly who you really are. You are pretty and smart. You are not the mean-spirited, ignorant ugly person you pretend to be on these forums. I just think it’s sad that you are trying so hard to be someone that you are not, and I can’t figure out why. The fact that you feel the need to downplay your excitement of the ENERGY study and deny your heritage, speaks volumes about your character and the power of groupthink.
@marc, what I posted is an English dialect. thenewme is Indo-Trinidadian. The language is highly flexible and absorbs vocabulary from British English. If you read it slowly, you’ll figure out what every words means. It’s not that complicated and certainly not racist.
Leah, I would have to disagree with that. Except for times when one might be trying to paint a particular character in fiction in such a way that readers easily identify that quirk about them, even fiction authors are told to stay away from strange spellings of words to portray a type of speech. In this case here, you were actually trying to make either yourself look mocked as being less than intelligent (being enamored with alternative treatments, unfortunately, is not a measure of “real” intelligence as much as gullibility and willingness to believe) or make her sound stupid. Neither one is appropriate.
There is no where in the world where the spellings you used for those words is a generally accepted spelling, and this is obviously not a forum where strange things like “kk” and “hullo” and other little deviations from common spellings are used in normal posts.
Do you see anyone else posting in this blog using the actual way they might pronounce words (or, in my case, using “ya’ll” as the plural of you or being sure to type “Missourah” instead of Missouri)? Are you typing your responses demonstrating your own accent idiosyncrasies?
For whatever reason you think location has something to do with whether or not we should find someone credible (once again, attacking a person and not the actual topic at hand, or in your case, attacking the person rather than defending your particular point of view, which seems to be that alternative medicine not only works but is superior to science and evidence-based treatments).
At MSII & thenewme – DC1 preaches, seriously, in their radio shows. Whether or not they believe what they preach – that God has told us again and again that there are natural cures to all of our diseases and that pharmacology is the same thing as alchemy and sorcery and sinful – I’m not sure. It definitely would be a type of “truth” (rolling eyes here) that would appeal to many ultra-conservative Christians and some of the Christian offshoots (i.e., some LDS, 7th-Day Adventists, Restoration LDS, Christian Scientists, Jehovah’s Witnesses). Though it’s more groups of people within those groups rather than a group as a whole and though some of those listed do not actually have anything in their beliefs strictly saying that they cannot use standard medicine, they do have a stronger leaning to “natural” cures, faith healing, etc., that makes the type of pitch used by Daniel Chapter One appealing to them.
Mr Woo falls into one of those branches and his church has at least a whole bookshelf of their library filled with alternative medicine books that members can check out and take home. Also, there is a published part of their doctrine that recommends herbs, etc., as treatment (but since it was written in the 1800s, it isn’t binding – that was what they had back then to treat most things).
I get more offended when people use religion to sell stuff like this – as someone who is faithful myself it is terribly offensive to have someone use something that is really a very personal choice as a marketing angle. When people actually take it and use it as an attempt to reduce prosecution for breaking FTC law, etc., I jut get downright angry. Jim Humble’s “church” is nothing but a very calculated fraud.
Thanks for clarifying. I guess Leah is as incomprehensible to others as well.
Ahhh, well…. CRAP. Okay, Leah – you busted me. I really am smart and pretty. So much for my ugly and mean troll routine! Too bad – I’ve worked so long and hard on that persona and there you go and wreck it.
Seriously, Leah, you’re really, REALLY off-base about me, my personality, and my heritage, but even if you were right, WTF would that have to do with Entelev, CanCell, and Cantron (and Protocel) NOT curing cancer? And WTF does my participation in the ENERGY trial have to do with anything??? If you or anyone would like to know more, or to discuss it in a sane way, I’m more than happy to oblige
I may be pretty and smart, but apparently I’m also too damn pigheaded to resist feeding time at the trollery.
@MrsWoo, I couldn’t agree more about the pseudo-wannabe-religion thing with these quacks! I think they use it in a misguided attempt to add credibility/wholesomeness to their stupidity, but honestly it comes out more as just being unhinged, IMO.
@Agashem….. incomprehensible, indeed!
Leah’s consistent resort to a badly calculated series of ad hominems speaks volumes to the fact that she has no evidence to offer.
Just another PR flak peddling non-existent majik cures .
Bugger now I’ve have an earworm..
“My friend the witch doctor, he taught me what to say
My friend the witch doctor, he taught me what to do….”
Rats me too..
And I know that you’ll be mine if I say this to you
Ew ee ew ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang
ew ee ew ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang
Spelling?
@Sauceress, there’s a cure for earworms, ya know!
If you know the secret handshake, I’ll sell it to you for a low low price, just for you! Today only!
What…no enemas?
Oh..if I “know the secret handshake”..
Reading comprehension on my part there!
@thenewme, you stink at lying.
I would like to know more about the ENERGY trial though and what alternative treatments you currently have in your back pocket because like I said Protocel does nothing for TNBC. The problem is now I don’t trust you to tell the truth and this is not the platform to freely share that info. Afterall, you don’t want to be mistaken for an altie in front of your friends. Your have to stay true to your ugly and mean troll character ’cause that’s really important when you have BC.
Honestly Leah…did you even graduate from kindergarden?
kindergarten even
So Leah do you want information from thenewme or not? Your post is confusing. I really don’t think she is lying about anything. The ENERGY trial is science based medicine so why would this not be the place to share that information?
The ENERGY trial’s main site is UCSD (Univ of Calif, Sand Diego). Easily found on a quick search.
Again, what does that, or my back pocket, or my trustworthiness (?!) have to do with this discussion?
irony meter just burnt out
@Leah,
Please bear in mind that internet pseudonyms (just like first and last names In Real Life) are not unique. Not only is it likely, it is in fact TRUE that more than one woman posting online as “thenewme” has had breast cancer.
I thought I saw sparks, Rose – is that what it was?
Seriously, a few minutes with google indicates that many people — women and men — use the online moniker “thenewme.” If their personal details don’t match up, that doesn’t mean they’re “liars”– it means they’re different people!
Rose
“irony meter just burnt out”
Really? It lasted right up til now?
Mine went way back up thread when I read:
Leah (July 8, 12:03 pm)
[“Of course not all alternative cancer treatments are legit. Questioning them, however, in a civil manner is quite different than spitting words such as mentally ill, quacks etc., or making childish sarcastic comments. That’s a deep insecurity on their parts.”]
followed by..
Leah (July 13, 4:31 am)
[“Orac you must think MD stands for Murder Degree. You give the chemical community a bad name. Shame on you. You are a quack by your own definition.”]
and…
Leah (July 13, 9:03 am”
[“Orac should lose his license to practice medicine. He is too interested in being a cult leader. You vulnerable so-called science people are under his spell. You all treat his blogs like the bible and questioning what he writes is not encouraged.”
Do a search under black-cat’s name at BCO….
She needs deprogramming. I’m sure I’m not the only one who thinks mental illness may be playing a part too.”]
Time for Leah to drop her pathetic little bully tactics and start answering some of the questions that have been asked of her above.
Here’s a little refresher for you Leah..no need to thank me.
@Marc Stephens Is Insane (July 13, 12:44 pm)
[“Leah, you sneer at the word chemical. I presume you use it in the context of Big Pharma. Chemicals are bad, mkay. So what the hell is Protecel?”]
~ ~
@Todd W.(July 13, 1:13 pm)
[Leah:Vitamins and nutrition are medicines.
Todd W. So you’d not object to them being regulated like medicines, then, instead of dietary supplements?]
~ ~
@thenewme (4:14 pm)
[“WTF would that have to do with Entelev, CanCell, and Cantron (and Protocel) NOT curing cancer? And WTF does my participation in the ENERGY trial have to do with anything???]
I think the meter has been malfunctioning.
I admit to skipping some of the more recent posts, but let me see if I got this straight; Leah admitted (after she was called out) that she’s a vendor for an alleged breast cancer cure, and she posts on a breast cancer site trying to convince women with that disease to abandon their doctors’ solutions and buy her product?
And she calls other people names. Pot, meet kettle.
“Seriously, a few minutes with google indicates that many people — women and men — use the online moniker “thenewme.” If their personal details don’t match up, that doesn’t mean they’re “liars”– it means they’re different people!”
Don’t be silly. Every one named “thenewme” is the same person, just like every Leah is the same person.
Now thenewme is of Indo-Trinidadian descent? Leah, you are getting nuttier and nuttier by the day. How did you come up with that? Are you having some sort of breakdown?
And what were you trying to say to her? I have not masterred your language yet?
Oh, that’s what you mean about going back to her island roots. and becoming a natural girl.
Too funny.
Leah’s brain has probably been altered by the alternative medications she takes 🙂
@Afriend:
LOL. Thanks for pming me at BCO. I have been banned again and cannot read pms. It’s maddening. I knew what I did here was going to get me banned but big deal. I was done with that sickening site If I thought it out, I would have pm’d all of you and let you know my email addy. .
It’s not up to me to be doing the work that the physician owner is responsible for. After all she is the one helping herself to a salary in the neighborhood of 250,000 a year from donations.
What I regret is that I am not able to get pms and have lost contact with everyone. I was going to get all to pm thenewme and have her give you my email addy but gave it some thought and decided that it’s a bad idea. I have seen some really stupid knee jerk reactions from the mods when alties cried wolf. Alties are very manipulative on that site and the mods are very gullible and seem to react on emotions rather than facts. Putting up a quack miranda warning the same day that JoyLIesWIthin howled that my post to chilli was going to drive her to commiting suicide and that BCO would be sued by the family. Oddly enough, they left my post up which surprises me.
I’ll get a Black-cat google email. I would love to keep in touch with all of you. You all kept me going and it meant so much to get those pm’s telling me that I helped you. If it were not for the support that I got, I would not have lasted as long as I did.
@Sauceress
The first question I already answered, but I’ll answer Todd’s question.
I wouldn’t oppose to vitamins being regulated in the U.S similar to the way the federal government regulates vitamins in Canada.
There is a much much bigger problem though. As you may know, the average American is taking around seven prescription drugs, which of course come with side effects galore. What’s even more frightening is that prescription drugs are now the third leading cause of death in the U.S.
These number tell us that the FDA needs severely crack down on the pharmaceutical industry instead of harping on the vitamin industry. People who take vitamins are not dropping like dominoes. As usual, the FDA has their priorities “misplaced”. It’s being run, and heavily funded, by the pharmaceutical companies, so the FDA lets them literally get away with murder.
@leah
[citation needed].
Even though all the natural sites are trumpeting that statistic they should at least acknowledge that many if not most of those deaths are not due to Drs treating patients but to patients overdosing on OxyContin and other narcotics that are being stolen and abused.
Leah @ July 14, 10:12 pm
Funny thing: the CDC seems to think the third leading cause of death is Chronic lower respiratory diseases.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60_04.pdf
These are the 2010 numbers – See page 7 of the PDF.
The 2009 numbers are the same at the top of the list: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm
I’ll also note that if “the average American is taking around seven prescription drugs” my family is way below average. Who on earth are you talking about, Leah?
She’s just practicing her best altie behavior. Accuracy and factual reporting aren’t part of the koolaid.
@Chemmomo, thanks for sharing the facts.
@Redloh, yeah. Accuracy and factual reporting don’t usually jive too well with their talking points and rhetoric.
You know, I talk to my kids a lot about “red flags.” When my son’s classmate insisted that his dog could (REALLY!) hold 23 golf balls in its mouth at once, we discussed what kinds of things are believable, credible, and likely. On the other hand, we discussed how some people just like to make shit up.
thenewme, you are a good mama
I think anti-anxiety pills are largely to blame. These days they’re being handed out like jelly beans by MDs. You all should watch Death by Medicine. Many people are taking drugs they don’t need because crazy amounts of money is being spent on direct-to-consumer advertising. Those” ask your doctor if chemicals are right for you” 30-second spots are powerful. Americans like instant gratification, so the fact that side effects could range from a slight itch to death goes woozing over their heads. It’s so sad. Too many Americans dumb, fat and sick, so they’re easy to manipulate.
What’s your excuse, Aussie.
Black-cat – hopefully you’ll get an email from me soon 🙂
Not fair you were banned – what was their reason??
This time it was fair. It was for outing members on this site. This time banning me was appropriate. It’s fine, it’s time for me and BCO to part ways. As a breast cancer patient I can honestly say that beastcancer.org failed me. What’s wrong with this picture? I’m the sick women with an aggresive breast cancer that needs help, but I stumble into the altie forums and see some really sick people in need of assistance. Instead of getting the help and support that I need from the site, I feel the need to render assistance to those getting the misinformation that will kill thm.
As I said, BCO is a very broken site. I just found out that google donated 60,000 to BCO. Google is going to be the first company that I approach on funding a non profit breast cancer site where there is no psuedoscience and where nobody gets a salary over a dollar.
What kind of moron believes statistics like this? Even allowing for the possibility that the average can be much higher than the median, this is absurd. It reminds me of the claim that N million women are killed by their husbands/boyfriends every year in the USA where N million is greater than the total annual number of deaths in the USA or the claim that an American woman over 40 (or maybe it was only 30) had a greater chance of being killed by a terrorist than of getting married. I think there is some sort of weird claim / big lie effect where the more absurd the statistic is the more likely it is to be remembered and the more likely it is to be repeated. “Did you know that …”
Re:
“What kind of moron believes statistics like this?”
JoyLiesWithin
aka: Leah
I’m not on any prescriptions, so that means somebody out there is on a whopping 14 prescription drugs to arrive at an average of 7. Mind you, I’m not American.
Apologies to any mathematicians; I’m just trying to make the point about averages.
And I don’t believe that figure of 7 drugs anyway. Not as “the average”.
I did try to get them to change their mind – no go. Why don’t you sign up with a different user name – all of the altie bullies do.
They don’t check IP addresses – just tried it 🙂 Just used a different email address and new name.
Damn–just had a longish comment completely disappear. Take two:
Black-cat,
Are you aware of Orac’s “friend’s” other blog, Science-Based Medicine? A woomeister there posted an herbal quackery site as basis for some of his claims that herbs cure anything.
From that website I found another quack site that will infuriate you. It’s an alternative breast cancer cure site run by a Dr. Veronique Desaulniers, who uses the cutesy name Dr. V. Ever hear of her? The first thing you see on her site, center page is black salve. Of course there’s the obligatory online store as well, so you can buy all kinds of stuff from the doc. (How come none of the real doctors I know have websites, and if they do, they don’t sell anything on it?)
Anyway, only venture over there if you’re prepared to have the stupid burned into your eyes. The herbal site lists “38 natural alternatives for HIV”, to give you an idea what lurks within.
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/
http://breastcancerconqueror.com/
Damn–just had a longish comment completely disappear. Take two:
Black-cat,
Are you aware of Orac’s “friend’s” other blog, Science-Based Medicine? A woomeister there posted an herbal quackery site as basis for some of his claims that herbs cure anything.
From that website I found another quack site that will infuriate you. It’s an alternative breast cancer cure site run by a Dr. Veronique Desaulniers, who uses the cutesy name Dr. V. Ever hear of her? The first thing you see on her site, center page is black salve. Of course there’s the obligatory online store as well, so you can buy all kinds of stuff from the doc. (How come none of the real doctors I know have websites, and if they do, they don’t sell all kinds of junk on it?)
Anyway, only venture over there if you’re prepared to have the stupid burned into your eyes. The herbal site lists 38 natural alternatives for HIV, to give you an idea what lurks within.
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/
http://breastcancerconqueror.com/
I just tried to post the same comment three times, but they disappeared each time. I’m hesistant to post a fourth time, in case they all show up on some delay. Let’s see if this shows up first.
Damn–just had a longish comment completely disappear. Twice. Take three:
Black-cat,
Are you aware of Orac’s “friend’s” other blog, Science-Based Medicine? A woomeister there posted an herbal quackery site as basis for some of his claims that herbs cure anything.
From that website I found another quack site that will infuriate you. It’s an alternative breast cancer cure site run by a Dr. Veronique Desaulniers, who uses the cutesy name Dr. V. Ever hear of her? The first thing you see on her site, center page is black salve. Of course there’s the obligatory online store as well, so you can buy all kinds of stuff from the doc. (How come none of the real doctors I know have websites, and if they do, they don’t sell all kinds of junk on it?)
Anyway, only venture over there if you’re prepared to have the stupid burned into your eyes. The herbal site lists 38 natural alternatives for HIV, to give you an idea what lurks within.
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/
I’ll put the breast cancer link in a second post in case that’s causing the problem.
Here’s Dr. V’s alternative bc site:
http://breastcancerconqueror.com/
And here’s Dr. V’s alternative bc cure site:
http://breastcancerconqueror.com/
And here’s Dr. V’s natural bc cure site:
http://breastcancerconqueror.com/
And here’s Dr. V’s natural breast cancer cure site:
http://breastcancerconqueror.com/
@Mark Stevens is Insane
According to T-Shirt I saw (in a Tim Horton’s on Canada Day), you are an “Unarmed American with Healthcare”.
This comments section is screwed up. My posts keep disappearing, and when I repost I get a “duplicate message” warning from SB. Let’s try one more time to get Dr. V’s natural breast cancer cure website posted:
http://breastcancerconqueror.com/
I apologize in advance if my posts show up multiple times later on.
Here’s Dr. V’s alternative bc cure site:
http://breastcancerconqueror.com/
Dr. V’s alternative bc cure site:
http://breastcancerconqueror.com/
Correction – got a pm asking if I wanted to get rid of my old account – they must check IP addresses – mine is fixed.
Well shucks, I guess I will have to go ask for more prescriptions, because I am below average.I really would like to see a source on that seven prescription average.
I would not recommend bco to a new cancer patient. I found it a year after I was diagnosed and not as a scared new patient..
I am glad.
I’m way below average, too. I take 1 prescription medication daily along with a multi-vitamin. Every other day I take another prescription medication (so some days I take 2 Rx meds). My ex husband, a diabetic, takes 1 Rx med a day, along with a multivit. Our parents, all in their 70s or older, take an average of 3 Rx meds a day, along with some OTC meds (vitamins, fish oil, calcium, etc).
Guess my family, even the senior citizens, are WAY below Leah’s average.
And yes, I am aware there are those people who are on a lot of medications – as a nurse, I had people bringing in brown paper bags or lists to show me what medications they were taking.
But – and this is a huge BUT – most of them had multiple physicians, all prescribing for their specific specialties, and the patients weren’t communicating that other doctors had prescribed other medications. They also used multiple pharmacies, so there was no cross check by the pharmacist as to the medications.
So yeah, poly-pharmacy exists. But, Leah, prove to me that it’s all the doctors’ fault, rather than partially lying within the patient who didn’t communicate?
(I’ll never forget the one woman, who complained of “always being sleepy.” She was taking 4 different narcotics – all prescribed by different physicians – because she hadn’t told them what other doctors had prescribed. And yes, I saw what she wrote on the intake sheet – “other medications – vitamins”. But once we had her bring in all the medications rather than just telling us – we stopped the poly-pharmacy and amazingly, she got her energy back!
Patients are responsible. Doctors do not have ESP to know when a patient is on medications from another doctor. Pharmacies help a lot, if the patient uses one pharmacy or one chain. But if they pharmacy-hop, like many people do, then again, it is the PATIENT’S responsibility.
(add note: I’ll be glad when Orac is back from TAM and can fix this italics mess…)
Leah doesn’t actually give a timeframe for the 7 meds, so it may be true albeit very misleading. Think about it, could be 7 meds a year, 7 meds in a 5 year period, or whatever the heck Leah wants to use to get to her personal best drama factoid.
As a cancer patient myself, if the period is 1 year, counting chemo meds, imaging contrasts, and differentiating the IV meds post surgery from the oral versions once home, I’m totally popping the average against the rest of the public who aren’t being treated for serious conditions.
But, key fact: even in active cancer treatment I’ve yet to be taking 7 prescription meds *at the same time*
Popping *up* the average, that is
(also wondering whether a 3 drug chemo regemine counts as 1 or 3 in the total? Do different flavors of barium smoothie count separately? Is big pharma really being an evil bully when II take anti nausea meds and white blood cell boosters with the chemo, cause to be honest I’m pretty glad about those…)
My apologies, according to the FDA, medical mistakes and adverse drug reactions are the third leading cause of death. Medical treatments cause over 200 000 deaths per year. Adverse drug reactions are the fourth leading cause of death -ahead of things like diabetes, AIDS, accidents and automobile deaths. Watch Death By Medicine by Gary Null. You’ll love it.
Furthermore, it is estimated that 1.3 million Americans are at high risk of premature death from taking mixtures of prescription drugs that can trigger interactions. More and more educated people are now waking up and using naturopathic doctors as their primary care providers because they know drugs just mask problems and create more problems. I’m sure GPs will eventually only be used to diagnose.
@Marc Stephens Is Insane, private oncologists don’t need websites. What for? Over 50% of their revenues come from prescribing chemotherapy. It’s their cash cow.
Chemotherapy is not the answer to cancer. It’s one the worst scams in history. Have you any idea how many breast cancer patients are over treated? On top of that, chemotherapy is extremely harsh, so calling it poison is accurate, even though the word “poison” makes those promoting and profiting from it feel “uncomfortable”.
The reality is patients do die from the side effects of chemotherapy. It would be so wonderful if conventional cancer treatments were non-hazardous and effective with benefits that actually outweigh the risks, but they are not. Just so you know, burying your head in the sand, pretending that they are great won’t make them so either.
Now if an alternative cancer treatment were ever put on the market that virtually harmed every patient, killed millions, and may possibly help fewer than a measly 3 percent of cancer patients given it, those “quacks” pushing it would be brought to court, and yet the chemical community is legally allowed to push chemo.
If it were up to me, oncologists who deliberately over treat patients would receive the death penalty. A lethal injection of chemo is punishment that would certainly go well with the crime.
“If it were up to me, oncologists who deliberately over treat patients would receive the death penalty. A lethal injection of chemo is punishment that would certainly go well with the crime.”
Tell us more about your fantasies of vengeance. They provide a fascinating view into your mindset. Isn’t it nice that Orac provides a forum for you to spout your ridiculous accusations? Is he paying you to make alties look bad, or do you imagine that you’re actually winning?
Just trying a few things…
Quote from Leah: Medical treatments cause over 200 000 deaths per year. Adverse drug reactions are the fourth leading cause of death -ahead of things like diabetes, AIDS, accidents and automobile deaths.
Tell us Leah, why don’t diabetes and AIDS kill more people? At one time each was a death sentence–what happened?
(hint, it begins with “Pharm-” and ends with “-a”)
Quote from Leah: It would be so wonderful if conventional cancer treatments were non-hazardous and effective with benefits that actually outweigh the risks, but they are not.
So, Leah, saving me from a slow and painful cancer death? Sure, no benefit in that. Much better to try broccoli sprouts since there’s no risk of DEATH FROM THE CANCER in rolling the dice on that.
Idiot.
My experience as an actual breast cancer survivor/patient:
-Double mastectomy (“Slash”) sucked. It was emotionally much more traumatic than physically, but there was an element of relief, knowing that my 5-cm super aggressive cancer was removed.
-Reconstruction surgeries sucked. I had multiple complications, including eventual failure of one implant with subsequent deconstruction of one side.
-Chemotherapy with Adriamycin, Cytoxin, and Taxotere. (“Poison”). It sucked. Not as bad as I expected, but it was a really difficult experience physically and mentally. Again, there was an element of relief. My oncologists and nurses were VERY upfront, honest, and watchful for any side effects, and quick to assist with any that came up. When I developed worsening neuropathy, my onc discussed the risks and benefits with me, and WE decided to forego the last Taxotere. Thankfully the neuropathy is practically gone.
-Radiation (“Burn”). You guessed it….It sucked. Mostly I felt discomfort and fatigue, until the end, when I had some skin breakdown.
Do I wish there was an easier treatment? Of course.
Would I do it again? ABSO-FREAKIN-LUTELY.
Leah,
(Quote bolded to clarify among rogue italics).
Gary Null’s iatrogenic death estimates include malnutrition, bedsores and infection and he counts a number of groups of deaths more than once. The way he calculates deaths from bed sores is interesting. The mortality rate for hospital patients with bedsores is 23-37%, and a million hospital patients a year get bedsores. Null guesses that 50% of those deaths might be caused by bedsores, and comes up with 115,000 iatrogenic deaths from that. Even if you accept bed sores as iatrogenic (I would class them as either accidental or due to poor nursing care), I wonder how many of those deaths were actually caused by bed sores and how many by another condition that led to the patient being bedridden. Null also relies heavily on Lazarou’s 1998 study on adverse drug reactions that looked at studies mostly from the 60s and 70s, that actually counted less than 100 deaths and extrapolated to the entire population of the USA. Take all these figures with a very large pinch of salt.
As my dad would say, “Figures don’t lie, liars figure.”
Figures from Gary Null? It just gets better and better.
Isn’t there a form of Scopie’s law that says invoking Gary Null and his (null) facts means you automatically lose the argument? I wouldn’t trust Gary Null for anything, from the junk I’ve read from his site (I went there once and was so appalled I never returned). Guess that makes me a “sheeple” since I don’t want to read the REAL TROOF ™.
And I’ve always loved the “secrets ‘they’ don’t want you to know” that are all over the internet. Some secret. The only secret is how much the sellers are making off the poor suckers who fall for their line.
I think Scopie’s law should be extended to Null, Natural News, Mercola, Oz and of course whale.to
I was trying in vain to post this website last night, but I must have invoked the wrath of SB since my posts kept disappearing.
Black-cat,
Here’s the link to Ms. Veronique Desaulniers “Conquering Breast Cancer” lunatic website. I call her Ms., not Dr. V, because I found out she’s not an MD, she’s only a chiropractor and an “energy healer” who treated her own cancer herself and now counsels others on how to cure themselves naturally.
Check out her “Seven Essentials” if you want to gag, and then look at the cancer remedies she sells. Some of the kits go for $1000 for a 30 day supply. You can also buy time with her over the phone to get her useless advice.
She endorses TFT, homeopathy, black salve, herbs and nutrition and magnets, earth grounding and lots of other “energy” crap. It’s an entire woo salad.
She has “testimonials” from supposed doctors she has worked with, but those doctors only use their initials. Why so coy? I can understand some patients might want to preserve their privacy, but why would a doctor not use his/her full name on a site endorsing another “health care provider”?
Of course every few paragraphs there’s a pitch to buy her services.
Why the hell is a chiropractor selling cancer advice? Can’t the state of Georgia stop her?
She is also a frequent contributor to Natural News, so that alone should tell you she’s a moron.
As I warned yesterday, this site will infuriate you.
And here’s Dr. V’s alternative bc cure site:
http://breastcancerconqueror.com/
http://breastcancerconqueror.com/
I was trying in vain to post this website last night, but I must have invoked the wrath of SB since my posts kept disappearing.
Black-cat,
Here’s the link to Ms. Veronique Desaulniers “Conquering Breast Cancer” lunatic website. I call her Ms., not Dr. V, because I found out she’s not an MD, she’s only a chiropractor and an “energy healer” who treated her own cancer herself and now counsels others on how to cure themselves naturally.
Check out her “Seven Essentials” if you want to gag, and then look at the cancer remedies she sells. Some of the kits go for $1000 for a 30 day supply. You can also buy time with her over the phone to get her useless advice.
She endorses TFT, homeopathy, black salve, herbs and nutrition and magnets, earth grounding and lots of other “energy” crap. It’s an entire woo salad.
She has “testimonials” from supposed doctors she has worked with, but those doctors only use their initials. Why so coy? I can understand some patients might want to preserve their privacy, but why would a doctor not use his/her full name on a site endorsing another “health care provider”?
Of course every few paragraphs there’s a pitch to buy her services.
Why the hell is a chiropractor selling cancer advice? Can’t the state of Georgia stop her?
She is also a frequent contributor to Natural News, so that alone should tell you she’s a moron.
As I warned yesterday, this site will infuriate you.
http://breastcancerconqueror.com/
Why do my posts keep disappearing? I’ve been trying over and over to reply to Black-cat but every time I hit “submit comment” my posts disappear! They have less than two URLs in them. Does Orac hate me?! 🙂 THIS IS SO FRUSTRATING!!!!!!!
And when I try to repost, I get a “duplicate comment” warning from SB, even though my original post disappeared.
Like thenewme, Im also a BC survivor/patient. I had chemo, a UMX, and radiation. Certainly not a pleasant experience but I would do it all over again in a heartbeat. The alternative for me would have been a painful death from BC. No thanks.
As far as the average of 7 scripts per person? Ah, doubt that one. Tamoxifen and Prilosec for me. Thats it.
I was trying in vain to post this website last night, but I must have invoked the wrath of SB since my posts kept disappearing.
Black-cat,
Here’s the link to Ms. Veronique Desaulniers “Conquering Breast Cancer” lunatic website. I call her Ms., not Dr. V, because I found out she’s not an MD, she’s only a chiropractor and an “energy healer” who treated her own cancer herself and now counsels others on how to cure themselves naturally.
Check out her “Seven Essentials” if you want to gag, and then look at the cancer remedies she sells. Some of the kits go for $1000 for a 30 day supply. You can also buy time with her over the phone to get her useless advice.
She endorses TFT, homeopathy, black salve, herbs and nutrition and magnets, earth grounding and lots of other “energy” crap. It’s an entire woo salad.
She has “testimonials” from supposed doctors she has worked with, but those doctors only use their initials. Why so coy? I can understand some patients might want to preserve their privacy, but why would a doctor not use his/her full name on a site endorsing another “health care provider”?
Of course every few paragraphs there’s a pitch to buy her services.
Why the hell is a chiropractor selling cancer advice? Can’t the state of Georgia stop her?
She is also a frequent contributor to Natural News, so that alone should tell you she’s a moron.
As I warned, this site will infuriate you.
http://breastcancerconqueror.com/
I was trying in vain to post this website last night, but I must have invoked the wrath of SB since my posts kept disappearing.
Black-cat,
Here’s the link to Ms. Veronique Desaulniers “Conquering Breast Cancer” lunatic website. I call her Ms., not Dr. V, because I found out she’s not an MD, she’s only a chiropractor and an “energy healer” who treated her own cancer herself and now counsels others on how to cure themselves naturally.
Check out her “Seven Essentials” if you want to gag, and then look at the cancer remedies she sells. Some of the kits go for $1000 for a 30 day supply. You can also buy time with her over the phone to get her useless advice.
She endorses TFT, homeopathy, black salve, herbs and nutrition and magnets, earth grounding and lots of other “energy” crap. It’s an entire woo salad.
She has “testimonials” from supposed doctors she has worked with, but those doctors only use their initials. Why so coy? I can understand some patients might want to preserve their privacy, but why would a doctor not use his/her full name on a site endorsing another “health care provider”?
Of course every few paragraphs there’s a pitch to buy her services.
Why the hell is a chiropractor selling cancer advice? Can’t the state of Georgia stop her?
She is also a frequent contributor to Natural News, so that alone should tell you she’s a moron.
This site will probably infuriate you:
http://breastcancerconqueror.com/
“Medical treatments cause over 200 000 deaths per year. Adverse drug reactions are the fourth leading cause of death -ahead of things like diabetes, AIDS, accidents and automobile deaths.” That’s from the FDA’s website. Look it up yourselves.
“Death By Medicine” just drives home the message. Warning! Those who are above learning or are junkies will not appreciate this film.
This is impossible…four attempts to post my reply have all failed. And yet these messages get posted. Did SB install some kind of filter recently? My post has one URL and the message is average length. Certainly other comments here are much longer. I am about to give up on RI completely, unless this is just a glitch.
I was trying in vain to post this website last night, but I must have invoked the wrath of SB since my posts kept disappearing.
Black-cat,
Here’s the link to Ms. Veronique Desaulniers “Conquering Breast Cancer” lunatic website. I call her Ms., not Dr. V, because I found out she’s not an MD, she’s only a chiropractor and an “energy healer” who treated her own cancer herself and now counsels others on how to cure themselves naturally.
Check out her “Seven Essentials” if you want to gag, and then look at the cancer remedies she sells. Some of the kits go for $1000 for a 30 day supply. You can also buy time with her over the phone to get her useless advice.
She endorses TFT, homeopathy, black salve, herbs and nutrition and magnets, earth grounding and lots of other “energy” crap. It’s an entire woo salad.
She has “testimonials” from supposed doctors she has worked with, but those doctors only use their initials. Why so coy? I can understand some patients might want to preserve their privacy, but why would a doctor not use his/her full name on a site endorsing another “health care provider”?
Of course every few paragraphs there’s a pitch to buy her services.
Why the hell is a chiropractor selling cancer advice? Can’t the state of Georgia stop her?
She is also a frequent contributor to Natural News, so that alone should tell you she’s a moron.
http://breastcancerconqueror.com/
“medical treatments” can be any number of things. Being treated for a life threatening disease that was going to kill you anyway is still a “medical treatment”.
I was trying in vain to post this website last night, but I must have invoked the wrath of SB since my posts kept disappearing.
Black-cat,
Here’s the link to Ms. Veronique Desaulniers “Conquering Breast Cancer” lunatic website. I call her Ms., not Dr. V, because I found out she’s not an MD, she’s only a chiropractor and an “energy healer” who treated her own cancer herself and now counsels others on how to cure themselves naturally.
Check out her “Seven Essentials” if you want to gag, and then look at the cancer remedies she sells. Some of the kits go for $1000 for a 30 day supply. You can also buy time with her over the phone to get her useless advice.
She endorses TFT, homeopathy, black salve, herbs and nutrition and magnets, earth grounding and lots of other “energy” crap. It’s an entire woo salad.
She has “testimonials” from supposed doctors she has worked with, but those doctors only use their initials. Why so coy? I can understand some patients might want to preserve their privacy, but why would a doctor not use his/her full name on a site endorsing another “health care provider”?
Of course every few paragraphs there’s a pitch to buy her services.
Why the hell is a chiropractor selling cancer advice? Can’t the state of Georgia stop her?
She is also a frequent contributor to Natural News, so that alone should tell you she’s a moron.
Here’s Ms. Veronique Desaulniers infuriating website.
http://breastcancerconqueror.com/
Black-cat,
Here’s the link to Ms. Veronique Desaulniers “Conquering Breast Cancer” lunatic website. I call her Ms., not Dr. V, because I found out she’s not an MD, she’s only a chiropractor and an “energy healer” who treated her own cancer herself and now counsels others on how to cure themselves naturally.
Check out her “Seven Essentials” if you want to gag, and then look at the cancer remedies she sells. Some of the kits go for $1000 for a 30 day supply. You can also buy time with her over the phone to get her useless advice.
She endorses TFT, homeopathy, black salve, herbs and nutrition and magnets, earth grounding and lots of other “energy” crap. It’s an entire woo salad.
She has “testimonials” from supposed doctors she has worked with, but those doctors only use their initials. Why so coy? I can understand some patients might want to preserve their privacy, but why would a doctor not use his/her full name on a site endorsing another “health care provider”?
Of course every few paragraphs there’s a pitch to buy her services.
Why the hell is a chiropractor selling cancer advice? Can’t the state of Georgia stop her?
She is also a frequent contributor to Natural News, so that alone should tell you she’s a moron.
http://breastcancerconqueror.com/
That’s it–six attempts to post a reply have all disappeared. I’m giving up–this is useless.
Anyone else having trouble posting?
Black-cat, I had a website to show you and some comments on it, but SB or Orac simply does not want me to post it for some reason. I’ll try later.
Where was that on the fda site?
Black-cat,
Here’s the link to Ms. Veronique Desaulniers “Conquering Breast Cancer” lunatic website. I call her Ms., not Dr. V, because I found out she’s not an MD, she’s only a chiropractor and an “energy healer” who treated her own cancer herself and now counsels others on how to cure themselves naturally.
Check out her “Seven Essentials” if you want to gag, and then look at the cancer remedies she sells. Some of the kits go for $1000 for a 30 day supply. You can also buy time with her over the phone to get her useless advice.
She endorses TFT, homeopathy, black salve, herbs and nutrition and magnets, earth grounding and lots of other “energy” crap. It’s an entire woo salad.
She has “testimonials” from supposed doctors she has worked with, but those doctors only use their initials. Why so coy? I can understand some patients might want to preserve their privacy, but why would a doctor not use his/her full name on a site endorsing another “health care provider”?
Of course every few paragraphs there’s a pitch to buy her services.
Why the hell is a chiropractor selling cancer advice? Can’t the state of Georgia stop her?
She is also a frequent contributor to Natural News, so that alone should tell you she’s a moron.
This site will infuriate you.
http://breastcancerconqueror.com/
I was trying in vain to post this website last night, but I must have invoked the wrath of SB since my posts kept disappearing.
Black-cat,
Here’s the link to Ms. Veronique Desaulniers “Conquering Breast Cancer” lunatic website. I call her Ms., not Dr. V, because I found out she’s not an MD, she’s only a chiropractor and an “energy healer” who treated her own cancer herself and now counsels others on how to cure themselves naturally.
Check out her “Seven Essentials” if you want to gag, and then look at the cancer remedies she sells. Some of the kits go for $1000 for a 30 day supply. You can also buy time with her over the phone to get her useless advice.
She endorses TFT, homeopathy, black salve, herbs and nutrition and magnets, earth grounding and lots of other “energy” crap. It’s an entire woo salad.
She has “testimonials” from supposed doctors she has worked with, but those doctors only use their initials. Why so coy? I can understand some patients might want to preserve their privacy, but why would a doctor not use his/her full name on a site endorsing another “health care provider”?
Of course every few paragraphs there’s a pitch to buy her services.
Why the hell is a chiropractor selling cancer advice? Can’t the state of Georgia stop her?
She is also a frequent contributor to Natural News, so that alone should tell you she’s a moron.
http://breastcancerconqueror.com/
Black-cat,
Here’s the link to Ms. Veronique Desaulniers “Conquering Breast Cancer” lunatic website. I call her Ms., not Dr. V, because I found out she’s not an MD, she’s only a chiropractor and an “energy healer” who treated her own cancer herself and now counsels others on how to cure themselves naturally.
Check out her “Seven Essentials” if you want to gag, and then look at the cancer remedies she sells. Some of the kits go for $1000 for a 30 day supply. You can also buy time with her over the phone to get her useless advice.
She endorses TFT, homeopathy, black salve, herbs and nutrition and magnets, earth grounding and lots of other “energy” crap. It’s an entire woo salad.
She has “testimonials” from supposed doctors she has worked with, but those doctors only use their initials. Why so coy? I can understand some patients might want to preserve their privacy, but why would a doctor not use his/her full name on a site endorsing another “health care provider”?
Of course every few paragraphs there’s a pitch to buy her services.
Why the hell is a chiropractor selling cancer advice? Can’t the state of Georgia stop her?
She is also a frequent contributor to Natural News, so that alone should tell you she’s a moron.
As I warned yesterday, this site will infuriate you.
http://breastcancerconqueror.com/
Cutting and pasting from the CDC PDF linked earlier for Leah’s benefit:
Leading causes of death for 2010 (preliminary results same as 2009)
1 Diseases of heart
2 Malignant neoplasms
3 Chronic lower respiratory diseases
4 Cerebrovascular diseases
5 Accidents (unintentional injuries)
6 Alzheimer’s disease
7 Diabetes mellitus
8 Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis
9 Influenza and pneumonia
10 Intentional self-harm (suicide)
11 Septicemia
12 Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis
13 Essential hypertension and hypertensive renal disease
14 Parkinson’s disease
What’s your source, Leah? I’m not planning to watch any Gary Null videos, or any other videos – please post a link that can be read.
Or are you just going to shift all your numbers to start at #15 instead of #4, just as you switched to #4 after I told you #3 was wrong?
I didn’t know the FDA kept track of all deaths. Drug related deaths, drug interactions, sure. But ALL causes of death? I’d like to see where Leah found that on the FDA site. And Leah – don’t tell us to find it ourselves. You quoted it, you post the link FROM the FDA site. Not Gary Null, Natural News, or any other quack site.
Black-cat,
Here’s the link to Ms. Veronique Desaulniers “Conquering Breast Cancer” lunatic website. I call her Ms., not Dr. V, because I found out she’s not an MD, she’s only a chiropractor and an “energy healer” who treated her own cancer herself and now counsels others on how to cure themselves naturally.
Check out her “Seven Essentials” if you want to gag, and then look at the cancer remedies she sells. Some of the kits go for $1000 for a 30 day supply. You can also buy time with her over the phone to get her useless advice.
She endorses TFT, homeopathy, black salve, herbs and nutrition and magnets, earth grounding and lots of other “energy” crap. It’s an entire woo salad.
She has “testimonials” from supposed doctors she has worked with, but those doctors only use their initials. Why so coy? I can understand some patients might want to preserve their privacy, but why would a doctor not use his/her full name on a site endorsing another “health care provider”?
Of course every few paragraphs there’s a pitch to buy her services.
Why the hell is a chiropractor selling cancer advice? Can’t the state of Georgia stop her?
She is also a frequent contributor to Natural News, so that alone should tell you she’s a moron.
breastcancerconqueror.com/
Looks like Leia is just regurgitating yet another old Chicken Little Memo from Null-Brain. Cherry pick much?
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/mar2004_awsi_death_01.htm
Life Extension Foundation (LEF [.org] ) is yet another “Health Freedom” quackfest. Check out their front page with the consumer alert, “FDA Seeks to Outlaw Dietary Supplements!!! ”
Gimme a break. The fact-twisting and half truths are just mindboggling.
*Death by Medicine* derives from a group effort including Null, one of his cohorts ( Martin Feldman) and a struck-off Canadian physician ( Carolyn Dean) who later emigrated and got an ND ( see quackwatch for her story) that originally appeared as an article and book several years ago; more recently, it has made its grand debut as a feature film- thus, it circulates the net through amenable websites and facebook pages. James Laidler has discussed how the numbers came about ( see also Harriet Hall, IIRC).
Dawn, expect more of the same: there is a new feature called * War on Health: the FDA’s Cult of Tyranny* which is available free at Gary Null.com and the Progressive Radio Network.com- you ‘pay’ by tweeting or liking it. So it spreads like a virus. Additionally, there are a host of recent articles, co-written by a veterinarian and some dudes, that cast aspersion on vaccines and organised medicine- amongst other topics. The quack-in-charge has hired a slew of ‘scholars-in-residences’ ( 5 or 6, the report varies) and film production staff to create written,internet radio and filmed material: these groups of specialists complement his established stable of legal eagles.
All of this- and more- is available via the aforementioned sites and co-ordinating facebook pages. Take a peek- if you have a strong stomach.
I sincerely apologize for my comments being printed here several times. Overthe last few hours I had been trying to post a reply to Black-cat but every single time the post would simply disappear. Now I see the comments have ALL shown up. Maybe Orac can delete them all except for the last one, with the link to the fake doctor Veronique Desaulniers’s website.
Sorry again–it think I was the victim of a glitch. There was no reason for any of my comments to go into moderation unless Orac has put me on a leash for some reason. Can’t figure out why, if that is the case.
Apologies again. I’ll go away now.
The reason I asked where the stats about medically caused deaths was on the FDA site is because I looked there and didn’t find it. Then I spent some time with Gogle and found stats from the NIH. Is that what you meant to reference Leah? Or were we expected to take you at your word?
Leah,
The following quote from the FDA website is from a learning module by CERT (my emphasis):
That 106,000 deaths figure comes from Lazarou whose study, as I stated above, is based on mostly studies form the 60s and 70s and is based on fewer than 100 deaths extrapolated to the entire USA population. I would put more weight on the IoM figures, and bear in mind that, to quote a Swedish study on fatal ADRs “”most study subjects experiencing FADRs were old and had several diseases and had therefore a limited lifetime expectancy”.
MSII, I had a similar experience a few days ago, with my comments apparently disappearing into thin air without so much as an error message. It’s weird.
Unfortunately, I could not even find NIH number’s to back up your claim.
This is the link I failed to post above
Sorry about the rouge apostrophe.
Rose, I found a one page summary with references at the FDA site, but I’m still waiting for Leah’s response before posting anything.
Thanks, I found the adverse drug article but not the sum of that and other medically caused deaths.
I am sorry for all the short posts. I have the attention span of a gnat right now.
You mean it’s a reddish makeup?
I think Leah needs to learn that she’s not going to get very far here with the strategy of changing the subject every time her claims are shown to be false.
Leah, I am going to ask you, straight out: Where on the FDA website does it say that medical treatments cause over 200 000 deaths per year or that adverse drug reactions are the fourth leading cause of death? You made that claim; it’s your responsibility to provide the citation for it.
If you post three more comments, in this thread or any other, and none of those three comments contain an appropriate citation, the third comment will be taken as your admission that the FDA does not make those claims. We simply do not choose to reward the behavior of making grandiose claims and then moving on to new claims rather than showing an ounce of merit to the previous claims.
“You mean it’s a reddish makeup?”
*throws an eraser at Mephistopheles O’Brien*
Now you know my terrible secret. I can’t type. I usually can spell, but that ability can be masked by my lack of typing skills.
Keyboarding is not one of my skills.
i was trying to sneak tha tcomment around the duplicate comment police. It said I had already posted the comment long before it showed up. (whine and whimper)
Well, a May 2010 PDF from Kaiser Family Foundation says,
“Utilization. The number of prescriptions dispensed in the US in 2009 increased 2.1% (from 3.8 billion to 3.9 billion), a
larger growth rate than the 1.0% increase in 2008 over 2007. From 1999 to 2009, the number of prescriptions increased 39% (from 2.8 billion to 3.9 billion), compared to a US population growth of 9%. The average number of retail
prescriptions per capita increased from 10.1 in 1999 to 12.6 in 2009. The percent of the population with a prescription
drug expense in 2007 was 62%, the same as in 1997. The proportion of those with an expense varied by age — 58% for
those under age 65 and 90% for those 65 and older, with little change since 1997 when the proportions were 59% and 86%, respectively.”
I believe, though, the per capita was number of prescriptions per year, which would include things like birth control pills, allergy medication (in some plans it is cheaper to get medication available over the counter as “prescribed” and only pay your copay and some will take it that way), antibiotics, etc. Also, as pointed out by some cancer patients, it would probably be counted as a prescription each procedure, which would make numbers also run higher. I can’t tell from what I’m reading if each refill counted as a prescription, too (since it reads “prescriptions dispensed”), though the 62% of the population had some kind of prescription quote makes me suspect that it might.
Once again – when you throw numbers around without any understanding of what period of time they are referencing, you can make them sound pretty doggone impressive. When I used to write marketing materials we often played with the scaling on the graphs to make them look best to suit our purposes, because the most reviewing that part of the data wouldn’t be looking closely at it as much as they would be doing due diligence on the legalities. If it left them with a positive impression, they were more likely to consider the product (this was not when I was in marketing in biotech; it was in real estate).
I was just cruising around the altie threads on BCO. It doesn’t take more than a couple of posts to find some truly crazy opinions. Specifically, one poster self diagnosed herself as contracting aids three separate times. She also claims she cured herself by following the teachings of Gary Null. Uh huh, ok.
@Jergen – on support threads for my disease many of the “self-healed” who are touting their treatments were also self-diagnosed. It makes those of us who have gone through the diagnostic process and have demonstrated illness so frustrated, both because it can mislead really sick people to treatments that could even be harmful to them. and because it is misleading (and in some ways, insulting, especially when they pull out the “you just don’t want to go on this all grapefruit healing diet because you don’t want to be healed.”).
jergen
[Specifically, one poster self diagnosed herself as contracting aids three separate times. She also claims she cured herself by following the teachings of Gary Null. Uh huh, ok.]
Which thread?
“Alternatie Therapy” thread. Start reading at 5/14 10:34PM
@MrsWoo….yes, very frustrating. How could one possibly self diagnose AIDS? I think I have AIDS therefore I do?
The same thread I mentioned above is touting the healing qualities of Graviola leaves. It “only targets cancer cells, not healthy cells”. Surprisingly, a couple of other alties have made the point that it has been known to cause Parkinsons. I feel for the newbie who will read this nonsense and believe it.
The woman you are talking about thinks Gary Null is a saint – she is also severely limited intellectually. She is a self admitted recovered ? heroin addict. She says she has bc but won’t have surgery. Most of her posts are indecipherable, like she is ON something. If you tell her to have surgery, she starts posting about being abused as a child by the local doctor.
I hope no one attacks me for repeating someone’s info here, but I didn’t name names, I’m sure you can figure it out for yourself.
@afriend
Heroin addict? That says it all.
@jergen – a woman at our church self-diagnosed herself with bone cancer (because her body hurt all over) and then healed herself with prayer. ~sigh~
No wonder the internet drives some doctors crazy.
@afriend
My head was killing me yesterday morning. I guess it had nothing to do with the wine the night before. Its brain cancer!
Im sorry, but this stuff is so ridiculous its funny. Some of the things written on that thread are just crazy! One gal doesn’t want to do the vitamin C therapy because it will interfere with the Protocel! If I didn’t read it myself I wouldn’t believe it.
The woman you people are gossiping about is 75 years old and is afraid surgery will kill her. For the love of God, have have respect and don’t judge her. For whatever reasons many people suffer from Iatrophobia.
jergen@ like Tamoxifen, Protocel will not work if you are taking antioxidants.
In the article below is the link to the FDA’s website. Unfortunately, I can’t make it hot , so look up the article yourselves to get the link and contact the FDA. They’ll guide you to more scary stats over the phone. A staff member has done that for me in the past.
FDA accused of mass homicide of one million Americans each decade
Tuesday, May 22, 2012 by: Ethan A. Huff, staff writer
(NaturalNews) The biggest threat to America today is not terrorists or global warming, but the mass genocide of Americans who die every year at the hands of the corrupt U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA). In a recent report, investigative reporter Jon Rappoport uncovers the dirty truth that FDA-approved drugs kill at least 100,000 people every single year — the FDA actually lists this figure on its own website — and the agency is doing absolutely nothing about this disastrous trend.
On a webpage entitled Why Learn about Adverse Drug Reactions (ADR)?, the FDA admits that 100,000 people die every single year as a result of taking FDA-approved pharmaceutical drugs. Citing figures from three different published studies, the figures also reveal that two million people a year suffer from serious ADRs, which include things like stroke, heart attack, and permanent neurological damage.
You can view the FDA page for yourself here:
http://www.fda.gov
Since these figures come from studies dating back to at least 1998, it is clear that the FDA is fully aware of the extensive harm being caused by supposedly “safe” drugs. And since it has done nothing to address the problem, the agency is complicit in willfully harming and murdering tens of millions of Americans throughout just the past several decades, which makes it one of the most murderous government regimes in history.
Based on the figures presented by the FDA, at least 30 million people have suffered serious injury or death as a result of taking FDA-approved drugs just since 1998 when the first cited study was published. If you go back several more decades, it is clear that potentially hundreds of millions of people have been directly harmed by the FDA’s “negligent homicide.”
“It is time for these murderous government crimes to end,” writes Rappoport in his report. “It is time for all responsible parties to be brought to justice, to real justice. It is time for the public to realize that 100,000 people dying every year in the U.S., because they take medical drugs, is the equivalent of 33 airliner crashes into the Twin Towers, every year, year after year.”
Why the FDA and its drug lords are the real terrorists
Since the FDA is the official gatekeeper of pharmaceutical drugs, it is directly responsible for the harm they cause. And yet agency officials have never, in any meaningful way, been held responsible for their crimes against humanity. And the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ), as Rappoport points out, has failed to step in and pursue those responsible for peddling poison as medicine.
If al-Qaeda operatives were caught dispensing toxic chemicals disguised as medicine to innocent civilians, they would be sent off to Guantanamo Bay without trial, and locked away indefinitely. But when the FDA does the very same thing on a much more massive scale, nobody bats an eye. And yet the number of people that the FDA has killed with its drugs is far more than the number killed during 9/11 or the Oklahoma City bombing.
The organized crime ring that is the federal government today is the real terrorist threat that we all face on a daily basis. And until the American people collectively wake up to this reality, we will continue to watch our friends, our families, and our children, which are the casualties of this ongoing terrorist attack, lay waste at the hands of Big Pharma and the FDA.
Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/035936_FDA_homicide_victims.html#ixzz20kRryatw
Why Learn about Adverse Drug Reactions (ADR)?
Institute of Medicine, National Academy Press, 2000
Lazarou J et al. JAMA 1998;279(15):1200–1205
Gurwitz JH et al. Am J Med 2000;109(2):87–94
Over 2 MILLION serious ADRs yearly
100,000 DEATHS yearly
ADRs 4th leading cause of death ahead of pulmonary disease, diabetes, AIDS, pneumonia, accidents and automobile deaths
Ambulatory patients ADR rate—unknown
Nursing home patients ADR rate— 350,000 yearly
Quoting Natural News to us is like quoting Mad Magazine.
Protocel will not work. Fixed that for you.
So we can’t make fun of a kook who thinks she got AIDS not once, not twice, but THREE times and cured it herself each time? What does it matter if she’s 25 or 75?
Do you understand the point of the article you cited in JAMA? Also, notice it’s dated 2000. Do you understand why it was written?
The Tampa Bay Times did a piece of legal drug abuse last year. Over 500 people a year in the Tampa Bay/St. Pete/Clearwater area die every year from legal drug abuse: mostly Oxys, that thet get with legal prescriptions (from multiple doctors sometimes) and then snort or inject. One woman in the story bought somepne’s else’s MRI and used that to show doctors she had terrible back pain to get her Oxys. Is any of this the fault of the drug companies or doctors?
@Leah says:
If al-Qaeda operatives were caught dispensing toxic chemicals disguised as medicine to innocent civilians, they would be sent off to Guantanamo Bay without trial, and locked away indefinitely.
So what should we do to those who dispense toxic chemicals disguised as supplements? Dont post another article from Natural News. Thats like asking a 2 year old child their opinion on cancer meds. Really Leah, it makes you seem stupid.
@Marc Stephens Is Insane
Call the FDA for more recent stats. The numbers are much higher than that.
You never answer any questions or address our points. You just bring up more nonsense.
If you hate chemicals, what’s in Protocel? Do you even know? How do you know each batch is the same? How do you know there are no harmful impurities in a batch?
And are you aware that recent research indicates that taking antioxyidants orally, even from fruits and veggies, is almost useless? The body doesn’t absorb antioxyidants through the oral route, and the body manufactures all the antioxys it needs by itself?
@leah
[citation needed]
Novalox,
No, WE have to find her research for ourselves. I’m not an American, and I’m not about to call the FDA.
Leah: dox or STFU. Understand?
I followed a link to a story in Natural News once and was quite shocked – everything is represented as fact – no argument – like the readers have been totally brain washed – very scary.
@Leah
Why should anyone call the FDA? You made the assertion, you should back it up.
Let me guess why you don’t….Its all woooooooooo!
I love the sensationalisitc photos that Mikey uses on Natural News. Also, most of the time the “headline” is equally sensationalistic but has little or nothing to do with the story. And in many cases the story is second or third hand and many years old, like the monkey/autism story they ran recently. And the comments are hilarious in and of themselves!
Ever see the SNL episode where Jason Sudeikis plays the devil and says he was responsible for creating the “comments” section of websites?
Leah ( Zuvart – yes I know who you are) – that woman is totally loony, yet you altie girls all cheer her on. Have you tried to talk her into surgery? Do you care if she dies? Hell, it isn’t even confirmed she has breast cancer. If someone else tries to encourage another woman to at least have surgery, the altie bullies come out of the wood work and attack.
I did notice some of the alties called BS on the triple AIDS claim, and some other rational posters spoke up in favour of ARV drugs. So even in the altie forum there is some common sense.
Legal drug abuse makes me so angry. My condition is painful and I’m on a cocktail of various medications – tricyclics, anti-seizure meds, as well as narcotics and muscle relaxants. I’m one of the lucky ones – I had a seven year history of issues that often get medicated that I refused medication for. Finally the pain levels were just higher than my body actually could deal with and I had to do something. I have an established history with my primary care and he does my pain management because I was uninsured when I finally needed it.
The scale of drug diversion and abuse makes it increasingly difficult for doctors to prescribe medication to legitimate patients who do everything right (and there are increasing lists of the rules for “everything right”). I just keep waiting for notification that it has gotten too dangerous for my doctor to prescribe pain medication to the few patients he chooses to do it for (he shared that it is pretty rare for him to do this – mostly poor and uninsured/underinsured patients). I also worry about how hard it might be to find pain management when he chooses to retire one day.
One of the most frustrating things, though, is the media portrayal of it. They make it sound like every patient has no real need for treatment, they are all addicts, and the doctors prescribing those medications only do so for the profit involved – that none of it addresses real suffering and/or that the raids done leave legitimate patients in the throes of withdrawal just as much as the addicts.
@afriend
Leah = Zuvart? Makes sense. Ive read her posts. Another whack job.
Mrs. Woo,
Some of your points were addressed in the Tampa Bay Times. That’s one of the worst-struck areas in the US for legal drug abuse. The woman in the article would get a legit script, sell some of the pills on the street for a huge profit and keep the rest for herself, and then repeat the process. The MRI scam was one of her weapons, as doctors really have to be convinced the Oxys are really needed. Each script is filed with the federal authorities in the US, apparently.
Here in Canada they’ve banned the old formulation of Oxys and have released a new version that is harder to abuse. But there are already instructions online on how to extract the active painkiller agents.
@Marc Stephens Is Insane. Protocel is non-toxic. Unlike chemotherapy, it’s not a carcinogen. Also, Protocel will not destroy your immune system or cause permanent changes or damage to the heart, lungs, nerves, kidneys, reproductive or other organs. Oh yes …and no hair loss, anemia, chemo brain etc. either. But don’t rely on me to educate you. Do your own research. Knowledge is power, my friend.
@Leah
Of all the things you mentioned that chemo causes, Ive only had one. Hair loss. Knock it off chicken little.
So protocel is non-toxic but you claim it can kill cancer – how does it do that?? Smiling at it?? It won’t damage your immune system, heart etc, so it probably doesn’t damage cancer either.
Leah,
That’s got nothing to do with what I asked. We address each and every point you raise, yet you ignore ours. You pick and choose what you’ll address and in the process throw more muck up in the air. What’s IN Protocel? It’s non-toxic because it’s useless. how do you know it’s even safe and pure to take internally? What safeguards are in place in the manufacturing process? How do you know the bottle you bought last month is the same as the one you’ll buy next month?
You keep saying “do your own research”. You’re the one making the claims, so you’re the one who has to back them up. Many people have told you that here many times, and yet you persist. Are you stubborn or stupid? As I said, dox or STFU.
At Marc Stephens II – yes, Florida has a really bad reputation for pill mills. The new formula of oxy is available here, too. Since it is not generic yet, though, a lot of poor people need the older formulation just for that reason. For whatever reason a lot of prescription plans don’t want to pay for name brand when generic is available. I really wish they would have taken the health insurance companies out of the equation when they started playing with a national health care coverage plan. All it is is a parasite sucking money out of the middle and making everything more expensive. You have to pay all of those insurance processors, their bosses, their bosses’ bosses, and, of course, millions of dollars each year for the highest of upper management.
There was one article I read recently that at least made a point of discussing some of the incoming patients and their confusion (and worry) when they showed up for their next appointment and had no way of getting refills. On the stronger pain medications, you can only use paper refills, so that definitely had to be a bad day. I was glad they at least included it with a neutral voice instead of painting the patient in any kind of light.
@ Leah – since you are the one “selling” this product on this thread, please share the actual studies that show that it treats cancer any more effectively than a glass of water three times a day. When asked to provide evidence you seem more interested in providing ad hominem rants, painting oncologists as doctors who get to make a profit on chemotherapy (most don’t, as far as I know) and therefore have a vested interest in prescribing it versus alternative therapies.
Now you’re doing “don’t rely on me to educate you” – you’re the one telling us this treatment work. Show us! Since it has been around for so long and been so successful, surely you have some kind of documentation to share, don’t you?
It always amazes at the raging hypocrisy in thr alt world. They won’t vaccinate because of “toxins”, then they’ll feed their kids bleach and give them bleach enemas (MMS). They won’t take real drugs from doctors but they’ll drink some stuff they bought from who-knows over the internet.
Chemicals are bad but the chemicals in MMS and Protocel are good.
Alright, let’s try this a different way.
Leah, one simple question. WHY do you think Protocel works? What led you to that conclusion?
OK, that’s actually two questions.
By the way, I’m watching a Family Guy episode right now that’s skewering Christian Scientists and their belief that prayer can cure anything. The CS parents won’t take their very sick kid to a doctor, and will pray instead. There have been lines in the show that sound like skeptics wrote them.
Seth McFarlane has often made fun of woo. He did an episode about an alternative “healer” once too. It’s obvious how he feels about quackery.
I’ve been taken to two different faith healers.
Apparently I lack faith (it couldn’t be their lack of faith, right?).
It took me on quite a journey of self-doubt, to be honest. In a way Christianity is a very integral part of me – I don’t know how to completely let go of believing it, even though I disagree with much of how it is preached and practiced. But when I was told by one healer that I was possessed (supposed to be impossible if you are adequately Christian) and by another that if I would have faith I would have been healed, I had to wonder if there is such a thing as not enough faith after all, and if I had inadequate faith, could I believe in anything?
Quite a philosophical exercise in the end.
@jergen
[quote]”Leah = Zuvart? Makes sense. Ive read her posts. Another whack job.”[/quote]
Based on the similar hatred and vitriol toward SBM permeating nearly every one of her posts, I was going for “Maud”.
Still who knows how many nyms belong to these sociopathic toadies perched on BCO preaching useless scam cures to the women there.
There’s a few who stand out as being quite obviously drunk on the Null and Adams Kool-Aid.
@sauceress
Maud is rude and feels the need to capitalize and bold half of her posts. Plus, she posts enormous amounts of quackery links. Leah can’t back up her own quackery with other quackery links. So, I’m sticking with Zuvart. 🙂
Formulation and efficacy
The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has listed the components as inositol, nitric acid, sodium sulfite, potassium hydroxide, sulfuric acid, and catechol. Precise formulation varies by manufacturer, and may include crocinic acid and various minerals and vitamins.[2]
Researchers at the National Cancer Institute (NCI) tested the constituents of Cancell in animal experiments in 1978 and 1980 and in vitro on human tumors in 1990 and 1991. They concluded that the compounds comprising Cancell could not be taken in doses high enough to kill cancer cells in the body, and that further study was not warranted. No peer-reviewed clinical or animal trials of Cancell have demonstrated any positive effect; claims for Cancell’s efficacy are limited to anecdotal reports and testimonials.[1] The American Cancer Society and Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center recommend against the use of CanCell, as there is no evidence that it is effective in treating any disease, and its proposed method of action is not consistent with modern science.[3][2]
Yeah, you’re right. I am wondering how many other nyms “Zuvart” may have at BCO.
Redloh
Sulfuric acid…yummy.
I think Leah is Zuvart because of the way she expresses ‘overtreated’ ie ‘over treated’. Did a search of BCO to see how Zuvart says this and she uses a space between. I do notice no argument from Leah on my supposition 🙂
@Redloh, Sloan Kettering and The American Cancer Society are as useless as Quack Watch and RI. I strongly suggest that you roll up your sleaves quickly and find credible sources.
@afriend
Nice research. And yes, still no “Im not Zuvart” so I think your right.
Zuvart – if you don’t trust MSK and the ACS then post a link to a reputable source to back up your quackery.
Are you going to claim censorship?
Leah is still ignoring all our questions and comments. I think she realizes she’s in w-a-a-a-a-a-a-y over her head arguing with people who are much smarter than she is. Or smarter than she thinks she is.
Leah is still debating whether to laugh or cry. She realizes that she w-a-a-a-s-t-i-n-g her time on a lazy bunch of air heads who actually think prescriptions drugs is a food group.
Is Leah still here? Since she is now speaking in third person, will she finally stick the flounce?
She was making fun of me, because I was writing about her and not to her.
So Leah, still no answers, huh? Or eh, as we say up here in Canada?
And you call us airheads? Doctors, surgeons, nurses, scientists, researchers, we’re all airheads are we?
When did anyone here say anything remotely like drugs are a food group? It’s the alties like you who think food and vitamins are medicine.
So why do you think Protocel works?
And she can’t spell – it’s “sleeves”
@Leah
“Those” ask your doctor if chemicals are right for you” 30-second spots are powerful”
Chemicals?
You mean stuff like catecholamines, adenosine triphosphate, nitrogen-bearing molecules and lipids? If you don’t like chemicals you’re welcome to remove all of those from your system.
I don’t even bother to comment on spelling on blogs anymore.
I’ve learned these blogs attract international readers and some people are writing in a second or third language. I admire and respect that. I couldn’t post on a foreign language blog and wouldn’t try.
What does bug me, and I know it’s an uphill battle, is that very few people know when to use “it’s” versus “its” anymore.
“It’s” is not possessive, but most people use it that way. I will correct it if I see it in my local newspaper, with insolence, because journalists and professional writers should know better. That’s their job. It’s inexcusable in a publication. It hurts my eyes to see it. In the comments section of a blog, though, it’s par for the course.
Let’s not even talk about “their”, “there” and “they’re”.
Can you tell I’m an English/journalism major?
I explain, twice, why Lazarou is not a reliable source for an accurate estimate of fatal adverse drug reaction figures. I even provide a link to the full text of Lazarou’s paper so she can read it for herself and check I am telling the truth. Leah responds by citing Lazarou. Then she mocks us for being “a lazy bunch of air heads”.
@Marc Stephens is Insane, you wrote
[And you call us airheads? Doctors, surgeons, nurses, scientists, researchers, we’re all airheads are we? ]
YES! You think you make decisions based on medical evidence. In fact, half of medical evidence is hidden from doctors. And the half that’s hidden is the half that shows drugs don’t work.
((((((((((THE MEDICAL INDUSTRAIL COMPLEX)))))))
Because drug companies fund most of the research in the world, great therapies that work better like nutritional therapies and PROTOCEL never get enough funding.
((((((THE MEDICAL INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX)))))
Leah, if you had read the actual FDA page rather than someone else’s biased misrepresentation of it, you’d see that their presentation of Lazarou’s figures come with a very important qualifier: “If these figures are to be believed.” Why would the FDA say “If these figures are to be believed” if there was no such question? Just using the phrase indicates that there is doubt (and if you had “done the research yourself” you’d have learned that there’s a lot of doubt that Lazarou’s extrapolation from a small sample to the entire nation is anywhere near meaningful) and representing it as if the FDA asserted it as fact with no reservations is just plain deception.
Ultimatum question time, Leah: Under what single standard is it disrespectful to point out that a 75-year-old woman’s behavior is irrational when she self-diagnoses AIDS and then self-diagnoses herself as cured of AIDS, but perfectly respectful to claim Orac has a “Murder Degree”? Not answering within your next three comments will be taken as an affirmative admission that you have no answer, and are simply living by a double standard.
Wrong. The actual statistic is that the average American is filling around seven prescriptions per year. My wife uses the birth control pill (for a variety of reasons) that she has to refill every 4 weeks. I have a prescription for an Epi-pen that I need to refill every year (or sooner, should I ever actually have to use the thing). Between the two of us, that works out to 13+1=14 prescriptions filled per year. Or on average, 7 prescriptions filled per person per year.
@leah
Relying on the old “Pharma shill gambit”, eh?
Guess that means you acknowledge that your argument is without merit, since you have to resort to that tack, and that you automatically lose the argument.
But I do admit, your rank ignorance is amusing to watch, and gives me a good laugh. So, keep it up, show your idiocy to the world.
@W. Kevin Vicklund
Birth control pills = breast cancer.
Oh come on Leah – you really aren’t trying anymore, are you?
What next? Deodorants cause breast cancer too?
Do you know nothing more than to parrot the Null / Mercola playbook?
@leah
[citation needed], because I do need a good laugh, and it would be amusing to see where in the world you made up that load of bollocks.
Protocel=profit for Leah.
How much $ do you make from each of you victims?
@Leah
You write:
“YES! You think you make decisions based on medical evidence. In fact, half of medical evidence is hidden from doctors. And the half that’s hidden is the half that shows drugs don’t work.”
If the above were true, it would mean that all doctors are idiots who cannot think for themselves. Clearly that is not true. It would also mean that there is a great conspiracy at play. Do you have any idea what it would take to pull off a conspiracy of that magnitude? Leah – it doesn’t make sense. Why can’t you see that?
Once you believe that some evil power is manipulating the very information you use to base your assessments about reality on, you are lost. Anything remotely suggestive of this being true is eagerly embraced, and anything that contradicts it is dismissed as being misinformation. To someone stuck in that self-confirming feedback loop it looks as if the rest of the world is composed of sheeple who need to open their eyes. Sad really.
If those supposed miracle cures actually worked, don’t you think “big pharma” would be producing similar substances under the name of a corporately related division and selling them over the counter in chain drug stores?
Follow the money – if these things worked and all that these horrible evil drug companies were interested in were profits, they’d be selling their own versions….
They don’t do that. I can’t imagine them giving up millions of dollars in legitimate business…those big drug companies must be very altruistic.
And of course 12 hours later and airhead Leah has yet to answer a single one of our questions.
LEAH: WHY DO THINK PROTOCEL WORKS?!! (See, I can shout too.)
*offering MSII the secret English/journalism handshake — hint, it involves creative use of the AP Stylebook* 🙂
Up here in Canada we use the CP (Canadian Press) stylebook. I still have two copies from the early 80s. And of course I have copies of “The Elements of Style” in every room of my house.
Scotty,
Interestingly (or maybe not…) although Canadians use the British spelling of words that end in “or” and add a “u” (eg honour, colour, rumour) the CP stylebook specifies “American” spelling for these words. The old rationale was to save ink and paper during the printing process. Each additional letter that wasn’t necessary (people understand color and honor) added to the cost of printing and made columns longer.
Thomas,
I’ve lost track of the heroes and villains in this piece. Does Leah actually sell Protocel?
Where’s Black-cat and thenewme? I thought they’d enjoy the past day’s worth of conversation.
Even other quacks recommend avoiding Protocel:
http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/QAA400820/Protocel-A-Bogus-Cancer-Cure.html
Weil is one of the worst of the mainstream woomeisters. If he says it’s useless, well, that speaks volume.
“Leah – it doesn’t make sense. Why can’t you see that?”
I think it was Upton Sinclair who said that you can’t make someone understand something if their paycheck depends on them not understanding.
Leah sells a product that has not been proven to work for over half a century. If she ever acknowledged that, or if she ever stopped trying to persuade cancer patients to switch to her product, her cash flow would take a serious hit, so of course she doesn’t see that.
Besides, conspiracy theories are so much easier and more exciting that silly ol’ things like, y’know…evidence.
Can Orac get us out of italics hell here? Is there a magic wand he can wave, or some incantations he can chant to the SB gods to get us back to regular font?
@shay
Evidence. What a concept!
“I’ve lost track of the heroes and villains in this piece. Does Leah actually sell Protocel?”
No one would spend this much time shilling for a product that they don’t make big bucks for – isn’t that the ‘logic’ that Leah promotes…
MSII — It’s always all about squeezing the copy into the space leftover after the ads, right? *SIGH*
I’ve always wanted to see the CP Stylebook entry on “eh,” yanno… : – )
Ahhhh…… the silence…. maybe Leah has stuck the flounce after all? Or maybe she’s just consulting the playbook.
@thenewme
Whatever playbook leah’s been using, it isn’t working, unless she intentionally planned to make herself look like a fool.
@novalox,
It’s fabulous, isn’t it?? I *love* the discriminating audience here! I wish the same could be said for BCO, where she and her cohorts deliver their message directly to a target audience.
This site and Quackwatch provide excellent marketing for Protocel and other remedies.I always check here for tips.
I hadn’t heard of Protocel until you all began publicizing it. Now it’s become a must-have. Do you get an affiliate fee?
Thanks for the alt med tips!
[
Exactly!
Yet even more cognitive dissonance is required for the anti-Big Pharma crowd to presume that fiercely competitive pharmaceutical companies all over the world are all in on one massive conspiracy. Reality it ain’t!
Ooops… above quoting of ABCDEFG (11:13 am)
@D
“Thanks for the alt med tips!”
Your welcome.
Oh and you’re welcome too Leah.
@marc
Thanks so much for the heads up on that horrible website. I’m looking at it now. I wonder if she is on bco So far I am not making any conncections between the too, but you never know. . I will let you know what I think when I am done reading all the scary crap that she has up. I have had trouble with some of my posts on this site, also and have posted the same post multiple times.
I am positve that Leah is JoyLiesWithin. She outed herself on the think outside the box website when she posted that I had” met my match and that she knew my weak spots and was going to come over here and poke me.”
She materialized on RI right after that as Leah. When she was accused of sneering at my cancer diagnosis she went right back to BCO and posted as JoyLiesWIithin, that Orac and his commentators laugh at stage 4 women with breast cancer. She was projecting obviously. She also livies in Australia, which explains the posts on the dumb americans.
The others are not so clear as they did not out themselves.
I think that Maud is Boudicca. I can’t find her on this thread at the moment to point out where it is. She’s only posted once.
Lucy sure smells like lucy88.
The others are not that obvious as they did not out themselves like she did.
I have no idea who D is.
I saw that. I got a kick out of her too.
@black-cat
Joy was having a fit on BCO when you were posting over here initially. It was a blast to watch!
Jergen, I don’t know why my post showed up before yours but it was an answer to you. I have no idea who you are or any of the other skeptics from BCO. I have a guess on who AFriend is but certainly won’t post it. I think you are all wise for not posting your BCO names. The alites are certainly safe. Alties promoting quackery and BCO are encouraged to do so. Would love to hear from you and any other skeptics from over there. I miss my peeps.
I have followed your posts as well as thenewme for a while. Both of you have been calm and caring when trying to help some of the ladies on BCO. In return, you were attacked by those crazy alties. As you have mentioned before, the minute you challenge any altie “remedy” they come out and attack. I find it disgusting that they would lead people away from conventional treatment and recruit them into la la land. I’ve learned a lot from your posta and that is why I’m here!
Boudicca
July 11, 5:16 pm = Maud
I guess we didn’t use enough ALL CAPS to convince D.
Jergen, I am glad you and the others are here. Feels good not to take that train to crazy town, anymore!!! RI is a breath of fresh air compared to the BCO alite sites.
Here’s a little history of BCO and why the alties get away with all their crap. A few years ago some women claimed that they were stalked and threatened over their views on BCO. It was in a couple of newspapers and two women were interveiwed on the news. The newscaster also interviewed the physician owner at BCO’s office in Pa.
Because of all the bad publicity this was generating, BCO bent over backwards to make sure everyone played nice. Whenever I point out that Vivre is selling Usana or promoting her quack website, the alties whine that I am stalking her and attack me. Poor poor vivre will more often whne on how she is just trying to help people with her NON PROFIT WEBSITE. That trashy website is clearly not a non profit and vivre never applied for non profit status for anything. I checked. Nevertheless, I get a warning email from the mods accussing me of stalking vivre abd if I don’t stop, they will ban me. If I in turn try to point out that vivre is peddling her crap on BCO and trying to scare newly diagnosed women from getting treatmen from their real doctors and trying to persuade them to buy vivre’s books(amazon bookstore) or crap from her website, I get a reply that she is just expressing her opinion and that is not against forum rules.
I don’t know if you remember but there was only one CAM forum. Because of all the fighting the physician owner made the decision to have a seperate alternative forum. This forum is only for those interested and participating in alternative treatment. It’s right there in the forum rules. The mods have emailed me and suggested that since I was not clearly into alternative medicine and was not being respectful of those who were, that I should respectfully stay out of that forum. They would point out the altie forum rules to clarify this forum is exclusively for alties only and that I clearly don’t have any business posting there.
The constant bitching and moaning they do is simply amazing. Sometimes I feel like I have wandered into a high school gym. The passive aggressive tone of their posts are clearly not a concern of BCO. I was actually told by one of those crazy alties that I was a sheep who blindly followed my MO because I chose conventional treatment and didn’t understand the benefit of Paw paw and grape seed extract. And, how dare I question the discussion in an alternative thread. Ahhhh, ok. That was all I had to know about their crazy ways. When I asked why they were making huge sweeping negative comments about chemo side effects that were not true for all patients (myself included) I was reported to the mods.
I have not been on BCO long but after a short time I just went looking for Albert Einstein and the orange towel because I knew I would find thoughtful and well thought out posts.
Thanks. Thenewme has been at it much longer than me and has spent a great deal more time than me trying to be the voice of reason in those forums.
Speaking of a high school gym ,Dr Weiss, who is the owner to the site, spends her time penning simplistic and patronizing articles on the site.
I guess that is how she justifies her generous salary.
This one article of hers comes to mind. It’s proper hygeine which we were all taught in 4th grade by the gym teacher.
Thank you, Dr. Weiss, for educationg us poor ignorant slobs on how to properly clean ourselves.
http://community.breastcancer.org/livegreen/feminine-hygiene-cleaning-up-down-there/
I have to admit that what confuses me is why telling someone the truth is considered “attacking” them. When someone holds dangerous beliefs and is attempting to share them with others (in dangerous I mean life-threatening or possibly physically dangerous, like delaying proven cancer treatment while taking bogus treatments, or a “supplement” that can be harmful like “colloidal minerals”), even if you can’t make the person who holds it change their mind if you can at least get others to question whether or not the person’s information is valid, you can hopefully save a few.
It’s the equivalent of having someone say, “This uncompleted bridge really is done; let’s all go drive across to the other side,” when it’s dark and foggy. If you know the span ends 100 feet before the other side you have an obligation to let everyone who is getting in their car to be the first ones across the bridge know that they are going to end up crashing into the chasm/river below. It’s really that simple.
Now if there were only a way to intervene with the Mr Woos of the world. He has decided to take the colloidal mineral supplement since I haven’t been… I guess I should move it into my bathroom with a spoon and put the daily dose in the toilet every day? At least it would be one less bottle of aluminum, cadmium and all those other “missing” minerals he doesn’t get from our “depleted soils.”
Just checking to see if posting a close-italic tag would help with the formatting….
Nope. Darn. Sorry.
To Redloh, who said,
““Sulfuric acid!!! EEK! How natural.
“Formulation and efficacy
“The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has listed the components as inositol, nitric acid, sodium sulfite, potassium hydroxide, sulfuric acid, and catechol. Precise formulation varies by manufacturer, and may include crocinic acid and various minerals and vitamins.[2]
Researchers at the National Cancer Institute (NCI) tested the constituents of Cancell in animal experiments in 1978 and 1980 and in vitro on human tumors in 1990 and 1991. They concluded that the compounds comprising Cancell could not be taken in doses high enough to kill cancer cells in the body, and that further study was not warranted. No peer-reviewed clinical or animal trials of Cancell have demonstrated any positive effect; claims for Cancell’s efficacy are limited to anecdotal reports and testimonials.[1] The American Cancer Society and Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center recommend against the use of CanCell, as there is no evidence that it is effective in treating any disease, and its proposed method of action is not consistent with modern science.[3][2]”
Have you actually SEEN those 1990 in vitro test results? If you have, you would not believe the above lies that Cancell or Protocel can’t kill cancer cells or that “there is no evidence that it is effective in treating any disease.” The NCI is lying to you and you believe the lies.
To Marc Stephens Is Insane, who said:
“Alright, let’s try this a different way.
Leah, one simple question. WHY do you think Protocel works? What led you to that conclusion?
OK, that’s actually two questions.”
One simple answer. Because it was shown to be effective in killing cancer cells when tested by the NCI. And people have become cancer-free using it. OK, that’s actually two answers.
@John J Luce – I haven’t seen them, but I read a qualifier in this that apparently you have missed –
“They concluded that the compounds comprising Cancell could not be taken in doses high enough to kill cancer cells in the body…”
That says to me that they might have seen anti-tumor properties in the in vitro studies, but when they extrapolated that to doses high enough to be useful in the human body, the amount required was prohibitive either because of sheer volume required or side effects that would have been common because of the quantity of the more harmful ingredients ingested.
Just because something works in a culture or test tube does not necessarily mean it will be effective in the human body.
John: If Protocel does work, why have there been no successful clinical trials (on real people as opposed to cultures) in the past seventy years?
Shhh Shay – now he is going to tell us either the “look at all these positive anecdotes” thing or the “there would be no profit in it for Big Pharma without being able to patent it, so no one will invest the money to let us prove it works.”
Wow, I’ve been hanging around woo too long. It’s getting predictable.
Maybe we’ll get lucky and John will come up with something more interesting?
I don’t think anyone has posted this link to a short article about Cancell. It’s worth a read for those interested.
To Mrs Woo, who said:
@John J Luce – I haven’t seen them, but I read a qualifier in this that apparently you have missed –
“They concluded that the compounds comprising Cancell could not be taken in doses high enough to kill cancer cells in the body…”
That says to me that they might have seen anti-tumor properties in the in vitro studies, but when they extrapolated that to doses high enough to be useful in the human body, the amount required was prohibitive either because of sheer volume required or side effects that would have been common because of the quantity of the more harmful ingredients ingested.
Just because something works in a culture or test tube does not necessarily mean it will be effective in the human body.
WHY haven’t you seen them? Do you really care about this subject? Do you really want the truth? Do you want to know ALL the facts or just mock people who may actually have more information than you do? Ordinarily I would not waste my time trying to convince the inconvincible. I don’t think you “skeptics” really want to find a cure for cancer. Maybe your funding would be eliminated if a cure were announced. Maybe you’d be out of a job. Imagine—cancer researchers with no more researching needed or oncologists with no more cancer to treat. Well, don’t worry. Just keep up your “healthy” skepticism and keep looking for the elusive cure. There will still be research dollars or medicare payments flowing endlessly to keep your paychecks coming. At least for now.
Wow…that felt good to get that out!
Now then, back to your post….
You quote, “They concluded that the compounds comprising Cancell could not be taken in doses high enough to kill cancer cells in the body…”
First, it’s “the compounds comprising Cancell” —not Cancell itself with all its ingredients combined. You know from elementary chemistry class that when two or more elements or compounds are combined, you usually have a totally different story than any one or more separate from the others. Have you eaten any pure sodium lately? Or pure chlorine? Oh, just sodium chloride? So that statement is a smoke screen and a non-issue.
Secondly, why do you believe that statement? How did they come to that conclusion? Did they conduct human trials on “the compounds comprising Cancell,” if they even know what they are?
You can use wonderfully critical thinking to attack Cancell except when you read something that you want to believe is true based on your own groundless presuppositions. Why don’t you think critically when Cancell is being attacked? Be a skeptic of THAT and make them prove everything they say. Or are you too closed-minded or pre-judgmental for that?
Wow…that felt good, too!
What proof do you have that Protocel was the catalyst that made anyone cancer free? Oh wait, I know, because the people who sell it said so.
John:
Why haven’t there been any successful clinical trials?
(golly, that felt good too).
To Redloh, who said,
“What proof do you have that Protocel was the catalyst that made anyone cancer free? Oh wait, I know, because the people who sell it said so.”
No, many people were made cancer-free who took ONLY Cancell, for example, back when it was given away free. Thousands of bottles were given away free, so no seller had to say that, because there WAS no seller. But that gets expensive for the people whose only motivation is to help people, not make money. You try that. All the expenses can drain you. We won’t mention the millions (or is it billions?) made by the big pharms after spending millions to go through the drug-approval process. The inventor of Entelev/Cancell/Protocel did not have millions to do that, nor did anyone want to invest millions in that with no promise of recouping any of it.
Even today, many people are given only months to live by conventional medicine, so they turn to things like Protocel and after a few months with nothing but Protocel end up cancer-free. If it wasn’t the Protocel, what would you say? God healed them? I can live with that, but can YOU?
More on the in vitro CanCell experiments here. They used CanCell itself, not constituents thereof. Many things kill cancer cells in vitro, including a blowtorch, which is extremely effective.
Apposite quote:
Some animal experiments were also done, and I’m trying to track down those results as well.
If you look at one of the hundreds of pages of Cancell propaganda on John J. Luce’s Facebook page (I guess he sells the Cancell version) you’ll see the oral dose is only a quarter teaspoon (about 1.25 milllilitres) twice a day. Must be some pretty powerful stuff to “work” with such miniscule doesages.
And John J. Luce, do you also claim Cancell cures AIDS, epilepsy (in FIVE SECONDS, according to the Facebook page) and hundreds of other diseases? Or is your “market” strictly the gullible cancer patients?
I still want to know what led Leah to believe it works, but it appears she’s buggered off. Chickenshit.
John J Luce
10:30 am Jul 17
And who’s lying to you?
Here’s the Appendix to those results from 1990 – 1992 you’ve been trumpeting http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/cam/cancell/HealthProfessional/Page8#Section_29
Here’s what I learned when I read it. The tests done back in 1990 and 1991 were designed to determine the concentrations needed to kill cells. In other words, they increased the concentrations until they achieved killing cells. Then they went back and compared those concentrations to the manufacturer’s recommended doses. Since there were no pharmacokinetic studies available, they assumed 100% bioavailility – in others, as if all the mixture ingested would reach the target cells inside the body.
The researchers’ conclusion (my emphasis):
Here’s what the American Chemical Society had to say about it (my emphasis) http://www.cancer.org/Treatment/TreatmentsandSideEffects/ComplementaryandAlternativeMedicine/PharmacologicalandBiologicalTreatment/cancell
Apparently, you are the only person who thinks that these 30+ year old in vitro results show anything worthwhile.
Thanks for sorting out the italics Orac.
To add to Chemmomo’s comment, the NCI also says of CanCell:
I forgot to mention on John J. Luce’s Facebook page beside the oral dosage CanCell can also be applied rectally, by squirting some up you-know-where. Shades of MMS!
Why are these lunatics so obsessed with enemas and inserting things rectally? Does that add to the allure, or the mysticism?
@John J Luce – thank you for the wonderfully amusing attack. I don’t have access to journals, etc., through work and can’t afford to keep that kind of access on my own. In what was posted earlier, though, it sounded like researchers didn’t find adequate concentrations of the protocel/cancell/etc., in the body to do anything in their tests. That for me is an immediate “aha” moment, because a lot of things purveyed as alternative cures for cancer often fall into that predicament. When I have been able to find studies that are done on a lot of these compounds (either in vitro testing or real, double-blinded trials, not a whole bunch of anecdotes with little to no proof available), if there was any possible anti-tumor activity it is usually in vitro and either too toxic to be given in the human body in large enough doses to have any effect, or just fails to have a strong enough effect in the body. This is, of course, in its own way my own anecdote. I’m speaking from experience more than anything else here (we had a lot of “research” that went on in this house through three different family members’ cancer journeys; Mr Woo, of course, loves alternative cancer therapy).
On this assertion here:
How many? Was this a clinical trial? How were the results and outcomes measured? How long did they remain cancer free (if they were ever declared cancer free) before recurrence? Were there any deaths or side effects? How many? Did side effects make any discontinue treatment or were the side effects manageable?
What stage of disease were these patients in when the treatment started? Since cancer is many diseases, not one, which kinds of cancer were studied? How effective was it with each cancer? What other drugs or supplements or diet changes were done at this time? Were any of them addressed as possible confounding factors?
If there are studies you can share, please get me links to them so I can see what they determined. I’m not going to dance around like I just scored some sort of “point” or anything on this – this isn’t about making me or you look uninformed or unintelligent or unhinged. This is about others who might come across this and/or lurk here who debate this issue and haven’t come down on one side or the other yet, and the occasional person who might be moved to understand better that their brain can be fooled and will choose to find things that assure it what it wants to be is true while dismissing evidence that might change its mind. I want people to learn critical thinking skills. I want them to realize why these terribly expensive studies, and lots of them, are necessary to demonstrate that things said to treat illness are truly effective.
This whole system started because of a concern that people might be paying money, sometimes a lot of it, for something that would be no more effective for their illness than a spoonful of sugar or a glass of water. In order to be accepted and used, compounds must be demonstrated to work better than nothing while blinding for all of the things that a patient or researcher’s prejudices and cognitive glitches might add into the mix that aren’t “real” – i.e., the placebo effect, confirmation biases, etc.
The argument for “proof” isn’t because people don’t want to believe; it’s because we want to believe in something that can be demonstrated as truly effective because it’s a waste of money and time to be a patient taking a bogus treatment and sometimes can even be deadly to let them do so.
To Shay, who said,
“John:
“Why haven’t there been any successful clinical trials?
(golly, that felt good too).”
I don’t know all the answers, but lack of money is surely part of it. How much would YOU like to contribute toward the expense of doing that? It’s for a good cause, so don’t expect any return on your money, okay?
The things James Sheridan and Ed Sopcak (both died in 2001) went through to try to get their formula approved by the FDA would make a good book or movie. Suffice it to say, however, it never happened. If you really want to know the story, send me your email address and I can send you something about it. I’m at [email protected]. I also have a DVD that has interviews of both men that tells some of the story.
I have much information, including the NCI’s 1990 in vitro test results, in my Facebook album at:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.109225998965.93145.604043965&type=3&l=dcadbc1843
I am not a seller nor am I in any way connected to any seller of any of this. And I do not benefit financially by anyone buying or using this stuff. I only found out about it by word of mouth—my sister, who was dealing with her mother-in-law who had cancer and lived on a hospital bed in their living room. I truly do not think anyone connected to this stuff is in it for the money. It just isn’t that money-driven, as evidenced by the thousands of bottles given away free in the early days of development, and the relatively low cost per month of using it today. And I cannot understand why anyone would think “money” and ignore the millions made by others in the cancer industry. It is so hypocritical.
I also despise the mocking of people of faith that appears on this blog. That is so pathetic. There needs to be some respect and understanding and, yes, compassion. Many of you should be ashamed of yourselves for the way you treat people of faith. Just because you are atheists or agnostics or secularists is no reason to mock others who hold to a Judaeo-Christian tradition. Cancer touches people of all walks of life and they all have different, meaningful-to-them ways of dealing with it. If you are in the health-care field, whether as a doctor, nurse, researcher, or other similar professional, you need to make allowances for the people you are caring for or with whom you associate.
Lack of money=no clinical trials. Ahhh, the old Burzynski excuse. If this ProtoCanCelEntelev garbage showed even a trace of a whiff of potential, there would be truckloads of money flowing in from everywhere to follow up. Every manufacturer would want in to try to market it themselves.
And patents have nothing to do with drug company profitiablity. There are several brands of “aspirin” on the shelves of my local pharmacy from different manufacturers. They are all making plenty of money off a “non-patentable” (in many countries) medication.
I admit, John, that this was a long thread and I’m leaving soon and in a hurry, but I didn’t find anything actually being verbally abusive to people of faith in this thread?
When it comes to religion, usually that is a hands off kind of thing here, with people choosing to be respectful of most faith journeys. I am a person of faith and have never encountered mockery for my beliefs here, even with a name like Mrs Woo (which had to make them wonder what side I was on at first).
Please understand that my actual goal is to make you think and realize where your mind plays tricks on you. What you are resorting to now, without attacking any one person, is “ad hominem” – you are attacking personality and behavior and not the subject at hand because you can kind of feel that you don’t have adequate backing to actually defend CanCell/Cantron/Protocel, etc. I think it’s a natural defensive response in arguments like these when you run out of ammunition for the real fight.
There are even a lot of researchers and medical professionals that are people who still choose to practice a religion and believe in a higher power than themselves. This is a bogus argument. Please realize we’re more worried about people dying from untreated cancer than whether or not they believe in G-d, and prefer attacking poor/lacking research, unfounded claims, etc.
Mr. Luce, I see that you have what I presume to be the actual data from the NCI study on your facebook page. I have a few questions.
1. What concentration of the compound was needed to slow cell growth? What concentration was needed to stop cell growth?
2. How does this concentration compare to the recommended dose of Protocel? If it’s higher or lower, how was this dose chosen?
3. Why didn’t the compound work on all cancer cell lines? Is Protocel marketed toward the treatment of specific cancers, dictated by the NCI results? Why or why not?
4. How do the results of this NCI study compare to the results of a study in which a compound was approved by the NCI for clinical trials? Here’s one example to get you started:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12467219
And some highly recommended background reading:
http://dtp.nci.nih.gov/branches/tpb/toxicology_pharmacology_primer.htm
If you are truly interested in learning, I hope you give these questions some honest thinking.
I respect anyone’s beliefs in almost anything (except $cientology or other destructive cults) but it’s the religious angle all these products use that bugs me. The “cures” were given by god and it’s god responsible for any cure. If you don’t believe in that god you are apparently not welcome or eligible to be treated.
We covered this subject a couple of weeks ago. All the Protocel websites I’ve seen look more like church websites than medical sites, and every second word is “praise god” or “praise Jesus.” The sites the MIA Leah cited all are full of those statements.
I asked a question back then that no one answered, so I’ll ask it again. And this is not trying to be antagonistic or disrespectful. It’s a serious question from a non-believer:
If someone’s god cured them of cancer, for instance, then why did that same god give them cancer in the first place? To make them suffer?
I’m reminded of a joke. There’s a horrible flood, and the water is rising rapidly. Rescue workers in boats float up and down streets saving anyone left behind. One religioius woman, when offered a boat ride, said “no thanks, god will save me.” The next day the water rose higher and the woman could only stay on the second floor of her house. Again, a rescue boat came by and she said “no thanks, god will save me.” By the third day the water was so high she had to go out on the roof. Again, she refused the boat rescue. “No thanks, god will save me.” Day four came and she drowned. When she got to heaven she asked god why he didn’t save her. He looked a bit annoyed and said “my child, I sent you three boats…”
To Mrs Woo, who said
I admit, John, that this was a long thread and I’m leaving soon and in a hurry, but I didn’t find anything actually being verbally abusive to people of faith in this thread?
When it comes to religion, usually that is a hands off kind of thing here, with people choosing to be respectful of most faith journeys. I am a person of faith and have never encountered mockery for my beliefs here, even with a name like Mrs Woo (which had to make them wonder what side I was on at first).
Please understand that my actual goal is to make you think and realize where your mind plays tricks on you. What you are resorting to now, without attacking any one person, is “ad hominem” – you are attacking personality and behavior and not the subject at hand because you can kind of feel that you don’t have adequate backing to actually defend CanCell/Cantron/Protocel, etc. I think it’s a natural defensive response in arguments like these when you run out of ammunition for the real fight.
There are even a lot of researchers and medical professionals that are people who still choose to practice a religion and believe in a higher power than themselves. This is a bogus argument. Please realize we’re more worried about people dying from untreated cancer than whether or not they believe in G-d, and prefer attacking poor/lacking research, unfounded claims, etc.
You “didn’t find anything actually being verbally abusive to people of faith in this thread”? On July 6th, I told the story of Elonna McKibben, as follows:
John J. Luce
July 6, 11:53 am
So, Cancell never made it into human trials, except the thousands of humans who tried it on their own and astonished their oncologists with amazing results, including being declared cancer-free, not for just 5 years but for decades. Elonna McKibben had a malignant tumor on her spinal cord while pregnant with quintuplets. After giving birth, she was diagnosed and told she would not live to see her babies’ first birthday. Two years on Cancell resulted in her being cured of her cancer. Her children are in their twenties today and Elonna is still alive and cancer-free. She took NO conventional chemo or radiation, which she was told would have left her a paraplegic until she died. Instead she tried Cancell, nothing but Cancell, and she is cured.
To that story, “Marc Stephens is insane” posted twice, as follows:
Marc Stephens Is Insane (2 posts)
1. July 6, 12:38 pm
Check out Elonna’s deluded, unintentionally hilarious website here:
http://www.elonnamckibben.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49&Itemid=63
It’s full of religious garbage and thanking the lord for miracles, biblical quotes ,etc. etc.
So was it the magical syrup she took or her lord saving her? If prayer is enough why does anyone have to spend $500 every 20 days for this crap that someone cooks up in his basement on a hotplate?
Mr. Luce, you must be a shill for Protocell. How much do you get paid for promoting this dangerous, useless garbage?
2. July 6, 1:04 pm
Why is the Christian aspect so vital to this stuff, as well as MMS? Elonna’s website says that Sheridan was a Christian and that Protocell was provided by god as part of a “program”. He dreamed about a rainbow and saw the healing potential in the colours, or some nonsense like that. all due to a gift from above, of course.
This Protocell testimonial is from a faith healing website. Note this man had both surgery and chemo before trying the Protocell, but it was god who healed him.
http://www.believeinhishealing.com/
(Of course they also sell Protocell…)
Does that mean Protocell doesn’t work on Jews, Muslims or atheists, etc? Why do I have to believe in a sky fairy for a medicine to work? And if your god wanted to cure you from cancer, why did he give you cancer in the first place?
Sorry to rant, but the quackery combined with the religious mumbo-jumbo makes me angry.
I stand by everything I wrote. I was writing in the context of religion and medicine. Maybe my language was a bit strong for you but whether medicine works or not, or whether someone is healed or not, has nothing to do with any beliefs in any deity.
And faith healing is full of crap. No one can cure anyone or anything by “laying on of hands.” See our reiki discussion for more on that subject.
I don’t believe in John of God, or Benny Hinn, or Peter Popoff, who all claim to heal by touch (or in JoG’s case, sometime not even by touch). They are all con artists, rich beyond belief, taking advantage of desperate and gullible people.
I’m sorry if that offends you, but it’s call rap.
Last line should have read: …but it’s all crap.
And John J. Luce, if words offend you maybe you should have a talk with your friend Leah who has launched some nasty personal attacks here at several people, including our host Orac. She accused him of murder. Anything I wrote pales in comparison to her nasty and venomous, personal attacks.
Mr. Luce, if you’re done being such a special little snowflake who just can’t stand being offended then maybe you’ll have a gander at the completely non-offensive questions in my comment at 3:51pm.
The late. great George Carlin on religion. I believe he coined the term “invisible sky fairy.”
John J. Luce, don’t watch this comedy clip. It’ll offend you.
To Marc Stephens Is Insane, who said:
I respect anyone’s beliefs in almost anything (except $cientology or other destructive cults) but it’s the religious angle all these products use that bugs me. The “cures” were given by god and it’s god responsible for any cure. If you don’t believe in that god you are apparently not welcome or eligible to be treated.
We covered this subject a couple of weeks ago. All the Protocel websites I’ve seen look more like church websites than medical sites, and every second word is “praise god” or “praise Jesus.” The sites the MIA Leah cited all are full of those statements.
I asked a question back then that no one answered, so I’ll ask it again. And this is not trying to be antagonistic or disrespectful. It’s a serious question from a non-believer:
If someone’s god cured them of cancer, for instance, then why did that same god give them cancer in the first place? To make them suffer?
Your question is a valid question that probably no finite being, least of all ME, can answer adequately in a brief (or even lengthy) post on a forum such as this. Whole books have been written on subjects like, Why Do Bad Things Happen to Good People? The subject involves knowing why things happen and why an all-powerful, all-loving, and all-just, infinite Being does or allows what He does or allows. Any answer I would attempt would be disputed by you because it didn’t cover every contingency or happenstance, and you could probably think up dozens of “What about…? ‘s that I didn’t think of when I first gave my answer. You asked the question, but you should not be surprised that no one answered.
Let me offer this thought, however. ALL healing, in my humble opinion, comes from God. Even if the person is YOU, a total non-believer, getting the healing and you didn’t even ask Him for it, because, say, you don’t even believe He exists. If you got healed, HE did it. Now, He uses different ways to do that. Sometimes He uses conventional medicine, sometimes alternative approaches, sometimes nothing but the simple prayer of a humble seeker. WHY that person got sick in the first place is anybody’s guess. Sometimes the person abused his body—maybe smoked, drank excessively, ate junk food, whatever. We are all free moral agents, not robots, and God has given us a great deal of freedom to act. Sometimes we are responsible and do the right things, health-wise, and sometimes we don’t. When we get sick, it might be a warning sign that gets us to take a second look at what we have been doing that was not good that made us sick. Or, who knows, maybe God let us get sick to draw us to Himself. When we come to the end of ourselves, we are forced to look outside of ourselves, perhaps even UP to Him. In times like those, we are forced to acknowledge two things— there is a God and we are not Him! We must acknowledge His sovereignty—He has total control, even when things look totally out of control, ultimately He is in control. And there is the element of timing. Things don’t always happen how and when we want. He controls that too.
Whenever I get sick, and let’s say I’m lying on my back in my sick bed, I always ask, What did I do to deserve this? What can I do to get rid of this? Have you ever read the book of Job? Job didn’t do anything bad to deserve all he went through. There was a greater purpose in God’s allowing Job to go through all he did. We may never understand it and neither did Job. If you read the whole book, all 42 chapters, you find that God never explained to Job why he had to go through all he did. Well, at some point he must have, since Job wrote the book and it tells why. But in the story, God is Boss. He doesn’t have to give anyone an explanation for anything!
With all that in mind, you should not be surprised that people of faith, like Elonna McKibben, has a lot of “religious mumbo jumbo” on her website. She wants to give her God the glory for the healing she received, after conventional medicine said she would not survive her cancer to see her babies’ first birthday. She would say God used Cancell to give her that healing, but ultimately she is going to praise God, so HE gets the glory, not Cancell. Consider this: No matter what medicine or radiation or alternative a person uses, if God isn’t in it and use it, that person will die. Period.
I just happen to think God uses Protocel more than cut/poison/burn. Not always. But more often than not.
Re:
I just happen to think God uses Protocel more than cut/poison/burn
God has cancer?
“Consider this: No matter what medicine or radiation or alternative a person uses, if God isn’t in it and use it, that person will die. Period.
I just happen to think God uses Protocel more than cut/poison/burn. Not always. But more often than not.”
Well, John J. Luce, if that’s the case – why would anyone use anything at all?
How many immortals are there?
@Black-cat
Maybe that is why we don’t see any evidence of him/her any more. However, according to Tom Waits, God’s Away on Business.
To AdamG, who said,
Mr. Luce, if you’re done being such a special little snowflake who just can’t stand being offended then maybe you’ll have a gander at the completely non-offensive questions in my comment at 3:51pm.
Sorry, as a special little snowflake I’m so offended by your calling me that, that I have decided to ignore your “completely non-offensive questions.”
You are ignoring them because you can’t answer them.
What a waste of humanity. I’m out.
Really? That’s your response?
What do you hope to accomplish here, Mr. Luce? Because clearly you are not interested in rational discussion surrounding Protocel. From your earlier comments here:
Are you open to actually discussing the evidence?
Are we just supposed to believe what you say without any discussion?
Why should we trust you any more than you trust the NCI?
To Marc Stephens Is Insane, who said
The late. great George Carlin on religion. I believe he coined the term “invisible sky fairy.”
John J. Luce, don’t watch this comedy clip. It’ll offend you.
Well, I endured the whole clip, and, yes, it offended me. But more than that, it made me feel real sorry for George. You see, he made one very real mistake— he died. On June 22, 2008, he died at the age of 71. If he could just have avoided dying, he might be okay right now. But he didn’t. He died. I don’t have to tell you where he is right now. He decided that for himself. Just like you and me and everyone else decides that. But poor George. He made his bed and he’s lying in it. His eternity began four years ago. Can you even imagine zillions and zillions of years? It is hard enough to fathom a thousand years, we who only make it 100 years at best. But a million years or a billion years or zillions of years is just too much to grasp. For someone to risk ending up in the wrong place for that long a time, is crazy.
@Militant Agnostic:
Good news! Big Joe & Phantom 309 are headed over to God’s house with a truckload of chicken soup for the soul.
Not a Wait’s original but he sings it best.
Mr. Luce:
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Pascal%27s_wager
@john – only if you believe in the sky fairy….
Your personal beliefs have no bearing on the rest of us.
pretend for a minute that AdamG didn’t write the post…pretend that I did. Now answers please!
Also, didn’t God create doctors?
I know exactly where he is–his body was burned and his ashes were scattered. End of story. No surprise there was no religious ceremony.
I think we’re going in circles and we’re never going to agree on this, so I suggest we move the conversation back to Protocel. It’s not fair to other readers to spin off on a such a tangent.
Maybe one day Orac will write an article dealing with medicine and religion and we can discuss it there.
@John J. Luce sermon @5:24 pm
Is it time for scripture quoting? My favourites are Hosea & Numbers…oh and there’s so many more.
John, how about you quit your preaching and address the questions directed to you regarding Protocel?
“It is hard enough to fathom a thousand years, we who only make it 100 years at best. But a million years or a billion years or zillions of years is just too much to grasp. For someone to risk ending up in the wrong place for that long a time, is crazy.”
Indeed. I suggest you repent, provide recompense to your victims, and live a better life hereafter.
Sauceress
Is there a difference? He’s either preaching his vile hateful version of Christianity or he’s preaching his vile cancer scam remedy. What kind of person worships a god who tortures people forever?
@Marc Stephens Is Insane (4:03 pm)
It’s all gone now, but Burzynski’s Facebook page was the same back when Marc Stephens was all over the blogs. The first comment there was from Burzynski thanking God for choosing him and showing him “the cure”. The rest of the comments read like a typical over the top religious worship site.
The religious angle comes across as being aimed at the gullible who might be more likely to believe that the devout wouldn’t deliberately decieve them.
“No Siree…they be honest God-fearing folk…they wouldn’t scam us.”
“I don’t know all the answers, but lack of money is surely part of it. How much would YOU like to contribute toward the expense of doing that? It’s for a good cause, so don’t expect any return on your money, okay?
You’re a little unclear on the concept of capitalism, aren’t you, John? If Protocel had any validity, large companies would be beating a path to the inventor’s door, to purchase, develop, test and market it. You cite unsupported data and then claim that it costs too much money to run clinical trials.
Intelligent people want evidence. Facts. Corroboration. Not anecdotes. You want us to believe you, and then get your knickers in a twist because we’d like something more than your unsupported word.
I wouldn’t buy a used car based solely on anecdotes from a seller, why would I buy something as important as a cancer cure? Why would anyone?
Marc Stephens & Sauceress
In America, Jesus sells almost as well as sex, so when you have a product where using sex to sell is inappropriate, Jesus is the obvious marketing strategy.
I just noticed this statement from John:
” Maybe your funding would be eliminated if a cure were announced. Maybe you’d be out of a job. Imagine—cancer researchers with no more researching needed or oncologists with no more cancer to treat.”
So after everyone is cured by Protocel there will never, ever again as long as the world lasts, be another person who gets lung cancer.
Interesting concept, but how are you going to make it happen?
@Militant Agnostic
Indeed, and now for some reason I’m reminded of this:
Who Knew It Would Be So Easy To Impersonate A Priest?
@Shay
Re: ” just noticed this statement from John”:
” Maybe your funding would be eliminated if a cure were announced. Maybe you’d be out of a job. Imagine—cancer researchers with no more researching needed or oncologists with no more cancer to treat.”
Ever think that some so these researchers and oncologists have had familiy and friends that died of cancer and have no guaranttee that they won’t get struck by the cancer stick, themselves.
I wonder if John has given some thought to this.
I think I’d have to agree that going the religious angle would be so much easier than impersonating someone with authentic knowledge regarding cancer, physiology, biochemistry and pharmacology.
@Sauceress
Re: “I think I’d have to agree that going the religious angle would be so much easier than impersonating someone with authentic knowledge regarding cancer, physiology, biochemistry and pharmacology”
I think it depends on the site. Here it certainly would. At BCO, you have a whole host of alties claiming to be experts in the cancer, physiology, biochem, and pharm fields, who not only get away with it but are hailed as guru’s that know so much more than those stupid oncologists.
i.e. vivre or lucy88
@black-cat
I didn’t know about the history of BCO! I will need to google some info when I find some time.
Jergen, I tried to find that newscast on the two women that were threatened and bullied but can’t find it. Janelovesdogs originally posted it approximately 2 years ago. If you do a search on her you may find it. She was a hardcore bat shit crazy alite that used to go into the stage 4 forums and laugh at the women there, claiming that getting chemo when they were first diagnosed was the reason that their cancer spread. She just disappeared one day. I don’t know why.
I would like to find that newscast again. Back then I did not know the full extent of how corrupt the altie forum is. I wonder if it was the alties that threatened those women.
It was taken pretty seriously by the news station and it was a good report. Maybe thenewme remembers it and can find it.
Jergen,
I found the newscast:
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/special_reports&id=6783653
One of the bullied women was a nurse who was told not to give nursing advce. Interesting. Not enough information to know if it was the alites that were bullying them. Honestly, the only bullying I see on that site is from the alties.
Shame on you, Black-cat. Don’t you know that researchers and oncologists are evil, evil scum and should be thrown in jail for murder?
After they’ve been injected with a fatal dose of chemo-poison.
There was only a CAM forum back then. They don’t mention what forum it happened on but I have never seen that type of bullying on any of the other forums.
At any rate, I think this event gave rise to “The Planet of the Alties” and they found that all they had to do was play the victim and this ensured that they would get their way. Using buzzwords like “bully” or “stalking” were always adventageous as the mods were especially sensitive to bullying and would be sure to have a knee jerk reaction to this. Think of Pavlov’s dogs. The games began and the forums became a free for all for any scamster with a political cause or looking to make an easy buck. Some of them, I wonder if they have ever had breast cancer. i.e. lucy88
@John – actually, I get offended at faith healing myself and I am, as I said, someone who is faithful. Which faith and how I practice it, however, is irrelevant to this.
When someone begins mixing together treatment and faith a la “this treatment is of G-d” (like you saying Protocel is used to heal by G-d more than conventional therapy, for one), it allows people who are unscrupulous to manipulate true believers to spend money on dubious claims (if not outright lies). It seems like people who believe in a faith of some sort are also a lot more willing to trust people they don’t know (especially if they speak a similar “language”) than those who do not. That kind of overt willingness to exploit people using their faith really makes me angry.
Reminds me of a televangelist who told all his followers he had to raise x amount of money or G-d was “callin’ him home.” ~shakes head~
And then I wonder if they drink the Kool-Aid or just sell it.
So I don’t mind that MSII happens to dislike religion mixed with psuedoscience. Granted, you’re right, he might have come on a little strong (he acknowledges that), but he doesn’t demean the belief as much as he demeans mixing that belief with the distribution or sale of an unproven, dubious cancer “cure.”
I guess since I find it offensive for my own reasons I didn’t pay particular attention when it was written and hadn’t scrolled back far enough before leaving for my doctor appointment (I did assure you that I knew I hadn’t looked at everything yet – I had no intention of actually publishing untruth).
I have been to faith healers. My disease has few good treatments and no cure. One of them, when I assured them I wasn’t cured, declared me possessed. Another one just said maybe we need more fasting and prayer (strangely, that was a remark made by a first century holy man when he answered his disciples regarding why they couldn’t drive out a demon that he had no trouble with – that it came out only with fasting and prayer – maybe both healers judged me the same way? Maybe you should pray for an obvious non-believer?).
@Black-cat – so they’ve already gotten some bad press. Maybe they need more? Then again, with so much support for ‘alternative treatment’ in mainstream media, people who find it dangerous might not get as much sympathy as one might hope. Then again, to a good journalist, it might be a neat story to get both sides (and hopefully be neutral enough to realize that unproven cures can be more harmful than beneficial and that the motivation of those confronting alternative methods is one of attempting to supply people with what they need to survive rather than just a battle of ideas).
@Shay
Silly me, that’s right, oncologists are the spawn of Satan.
We can use the all natural ever curing protocel instead of that toxic poison chemo. Why go under the knife of a surgeon when we can just use black salve and burn our breasts off in the comfort of our own homes. Makes sense to me
@Mrs. Woo: this little publicity that I generated seems to have caused some minor changes to BCO. Apparently, nobody can use multiple identities for one ISP anymore.. Must really chafe vivre’s hide.
Check out this religious healer – just heard about him from a friend in Australia – total whackjob just exposed as a charlatan on a TV show
http://globalvn.com.au/sample23/
The price this guy quotes is not represented correctly on his web site but $2,500 for 1 treatment. He was setup by a current affairs program and they had a woman who had been treated successfully for stage 1 breast cancer many years before. He disgnosed that she had stage 1 bc and was now cured by his 1 treatment – total joke!!!
Will post the link to the television program when my friend sends it to me.
http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/
Click on the second picture – elderley gentleman
JJLuce, yesterday @ 5:24p:
“We are all free moral agents, not robots, and God has given us a great deal of freedom to act. Sometimes we are responsible and do the right things, health-wise, and sometimes we don’t. When we get sick, it might be a warning sign that gets us to take a second look at what we have been doing that was not good that made us sick. Or, who knows, maybe God let us get sick to draw us to Himself.”
One of my patients–a beautiful, sweet, kind 6 year old girl–succumbed to Stage IV neuroblastoma last month.
Please tell me how YOUR God–your all-powerful, kind, benevolent God–would cause this to happen, and why. Don’t give me the “it’s all part of HIS mysterious plan.” That’s poor consolation, which I though was one of the primary rationales for (and benefits of) religion.
Please tell me why YOUR God–again, all-powerful–devastated New Orleans’ Lower Ninth Ward–with many good, god-fearing people–and destroyed many churches on the Mississippi Gulf Coast–while somehow leaving the French Quarter (that bastion of drunkeness, gluttony, and depravity)–virtually untouched. Either He is cruel, capricious, or not quite all-powerful. In which case, why should he be worshipped?
The universe functions quite well by itself without having to drag God into it. But it takes courage to accept that, which most people cannot face.
AFriend,
According to that website you posted, this is what causes cancer This guy really is a lunatic and I’m basing my statement on this paragraph, not his religious beliefs:.
I don’t care if this guy believes in god or Joe Pesci–his explanation for the cause of cancer is nutso-cuckoo.
What in the world are “Anti-Clockwise Blood Cells”??? Wow.
How in the world do people even begin to believe this stuff?
I just watched the video AFriend posted–what a total scumbag. I love the sting operation–at first I was afraid that poor woman was going to die of her breast cancer. Talk about a twist ending.
Most conmen (and women) scumbags have far more personality and charisma than this “Rev.” Robinson–that’s usually an essential part of the con. Think of all the revival tent healers and the TV healers. They sell it with their personalities. This scumbag Robinson’s cheap wrinkled suit has more charisma than he does.
Has any legal action been taken or is this still in progress?
Does Australis have something similar to Britain’s Cancer Act?
Thank you Orac for putting the disrespectful blackcat/thenewme in its place. Now that BCO is cleaning up its server of abusers (not one minute too soon IMO), it looks like you have company Lol
So we may continue to laugh at blackcat/thenewme at work doing its old dog old tricks: talking back and forth to him/herself with its personas posting within minutes of each other……a farce
JJL & Leah: I’m afraid you are wasting your time on these ‘personas’ who claim to be researchers, physicians, etc. All the ones I know are wayyyyyy too busy to spend even one minute on the net, let alone on a site such as this one. Unless, of course, they’ve all been disbarred which would account for their hateful snarky remarks and all the idle moments reading and blabbermouthing here.
But, even if that were the case, you would still be wasting your time on pseudo-skeptics – you see, they don’t even qualify as Skeptics. Here’s why:
“The terms pseudo-skepticism and pathological skepticism are used to denote the phenomena when certain forms of skepticism deviate from objectivity. Other denominations are: “irrational rationalists” and “fundamentalist materialists”.
They are professional atheists (who did start an atheist thread on BCO amongst many others in their recruitment efforts) suffering from pseudo superiority and appointed followers of their blessed father figure God of the Atheists, James Randi (that cranky pathological skeptibunkie Amazing Randi) and who are having a religious experience = Righteousness
Defining characteristics of pseudo-skeptics:
The tendency to deny, rather than doubt
Double standards in the application of criticism
The making of judgements without full inquiry
Tendency to discredit, rather than investigate
Use of ridicule or ad hominem attacks
Presenting insufficient evidence or proof
Pejorative labelling of proponents as ‘promoters’, ‘pseudoscientists’ or practitioners of ‘pathological science.’
Assuming criticism requires no burden of proof
Making unsubstantiated counter-claims
Counter-claims based on plausibility rather than empirical evidence
Suggesting that unconvincing evidence is grounds for dismissing it
Tendency to dismiss all evidence
Dingo-Bat.
“Defining characteristics of pseudo-skeptics:
The tendency to deny, rather than doubt
Double standards in the application of criticism
The making of judgements without full inquiry
Tendency to discredit, rather than investigate
Use of ridicule or ad hominem attacks
Presenting insufficient evidence or proof
Pejorative labelling of proponents as ‘promoters’, ‘pseudoscientists’ or practitioners of ‘pathological science.’
Assuming criticism requires no burden of proof
Making unsubstantiated counter-claims
Counter-claims based on plausibility rather than empirical evidence
Suggesting that unconvincing evidence is grounds for dismissing it
Tendency to dismiss all evidence”
Wow, sounds just like the alti bullies on BCO. You just described yourself Boudi. Amazing.
The thing that bothers me most though is that these BigPharma shills/personas who don’t suffer from cancer peddle their drugs on sites like BCO. That really rubs my a@@ the wrong way.
Blackcat/TNM, Hahahahaha – you DO have a black sense of humor, shoulda sprinkled some of that on BCO before you were permanently banned.
Nana now, gotta do something about the paranoia…….Maud ? Is she the one who recently said on BCO that you were having a serious episode of projectile vomiting on this site?
Paranoia, what a curse hey blackcat/TNM, I can see you scratching your head staring at your Excel spreadsheet, hellbent on proving to the world that you’re detective material LOL
Time now for your next pill, remember what the ‘doctor’ said, hein ?
Now, more on the pseudo-skeptics. I was saying:
It’s a waste of time because they already have their own opinion and their belief in that view is so weak they dare not step outside the boundaries given them by their ministers.
“An authentic skeptic will look for a reason to believe; not a reason to disbelieve. They will read the original literature and let the authors try to convince them. It is really the only way that you can examine evidence objectively.
Only after they have a sufficient grounding in the area of study do they go looking for the criticism. And a real skeptic favors the opinions of people who are actively working in that area of study. They get the benefit of the doubt. Always. They know more about their subject than anyone else. The game, so to speak, is theirs to lose.
An expert is someone working in his field of study, not someone taking shots from the sidelines. Pseudo-skeptics ( “not a True Skeptic (TM)” ) arguments smack of desperation and an unreasonable demand for perfection. The complaints have a history of being trivial and of shifting to something else when they are addressed.
Pseudo-skepticism is sloppy and almost always omits positive research or treats it as irrelevant. They don’t get respect for their side of the argument. The disdain for the overall quality of pseudo-skepticism is the result of reading skeptical literature and dealing with skeptics. Most are completely underwhelmed.
Experts spent several years studying this stuff. Pseudo-skeptics not so much.
There are patterns — constants — common to the pseudo-skeptic and their “arguments” when it comes to any number of topics. It does not matter who it is in the conversation, they always follow this map and use the same “script”. . . so much so that you could tape record it once and just let others share the original comment on play-back rather than stating it over and over again.
Cynics simply do not want to believe in anything they can’t dissect and learn how to exploit for themselves. Please don’t come back with the “how it can help others” in that we all know how man is only interested in helping himself stand above others and that’s exactly how it would be used.
You won’t change your opinion unless it is demanded of you and a skeptic who won’t change is a pseudo-skeptic.
Way too much of today’s skepticism brings harm to way too many people and yet, those that perpetuate that harm refuse to accept responsibility for the conflict and anxiety they’ve created as the result of their own zeal and venom. How is this right?
You are arrogant. You don’t deserve the respect that you think you do. Show some humility.
You come off with a “high & mighty” position. It is a trait that is very common and pronounced even, in the majority of naysayers and one of those things that put “us’ on edge. Think of how fun it would be to have to defend your life and your personal “novelty” 24/7.
Consider how much joy exists in a person’s life when they are being damned to hell by the holy rollers and promoted as con-artists and criminals by the so-called intellectuals of society.
Einstein used to claim; in fact, most of the great physicist, mathematicians, etc. from the dark ages forward, were men (and a few women) of god — people with exceptionally strong faith, that sought to better define the Divine and it’s greatness by way of science”
Careful REDBLOTCH/blackcat/TNM, you’re claws are showing, you’re becoming more and more transparent, Lol
PseudoSkeptics vs. True Skeptics:
Comparison Chart of Characteristics and Behaviors
All pseudoskeptics will claim to be true skeptics. But regardless of how they define themselves, a pseudoskeptic is a pseudoskeptic if their characteristics and behaviors fit the traits of one. So it doesn’t matter what they call themselves, because actions speak louder than words.
Here is a comparison chart of the differences between the traits of a true skeptic vs. a pseudoskeptic:
True Skeptics / Open-Minded Skeptics
• Questions everything and takes nothing on faith, even from cherished established institutions.
• Asks questions to try to understand new things and are open to learning about them.
• Applies critical examination and inquiry to all sides, including their own.
• Withholds judgment and does not jump to rash conclusions.
• Seeks the truth and considers it the highest aim.
• Thinks in terms of possibilities rather than in preserving fixed views.
• Fairly and objectively weighs evidence on all sides.
• Acknowledges valid convincing evidence rather than ignoring or denying it.
• Possess solid sharp common sense and reason.
• Are able to adapt their paradigms to new evidence and update their hypothesis to fit the data.
• When all conventional explanations for a phenomenon are ruled out, are able to accept paranormal ones.
• Accepts that there are mysteries and revels in trying to understand them.
• Views science as a tool and methodology, not as a religion or authority to be obeyed. Understands the difference between the scientific process and the scientific establishment.
• Acknowledges that the scientific establishment is subject to politics, corruption, control, censorship and suppression, as all human based institutions are – and therefore must be critically examined and scrutinized, rather than taken on faith, especially in the light of contrary evidence to their claims.
• Will admit they are wrong when the evidence calls for it.
PseudoSkeptics / Closed-Minded Skeptics
• Does not question anything from established non-religious institutions, but takes whatever they say on faith and demands that others do the same.
• Does not ask questions to try to understand new things, but judges them by whether they fit into orthodoxy.
• Applies “critical thinking” only to that which opposes orthodoxy or materialism, but never to the status quo itself.
• Immediately judges as false and debunks anything that contradicts their paradigm.
• Are not interested in truth, evidence or facts, only in defending their views.
• Cannot think in terms of possibilities, but sees their paradigms as fixed and constant.
• Are willing to lie and deceive to discredit their opponents.
• Automatically dismisses and denies all data that contradicts materialism and orthodoxy.
• Are judgmental and quick to draw conclusions about things they know little or nothing about.
• Scoffs and ridicules what they oppose instead of using objective analysis and examination.
• When faced with evidence or facts they can’t refute, uses semantics, word games and denial to try to obfuscate the issue.
• Unable to adapt their paradigms to new evidence, and denies data which doesn’t fit into them.
• When all conventional explanations for an unexplainable phenomenon are ruled out, are still not able to accept paranormal ones.
• Dislikes mystery and uncertainty, and insist that all unknown phenomena must have a mundane explanation.
• Views the scientific establishment as a religion and authority to be taken on faith and never questioned or challenged. Does not understand the difference between the scientific process/methodology and the scientific establishment institution.
• Assumes that the scientific establishment is objective and unbiased, and free of politics, corruption, control, censorship and suppression for no other reason than blind faith in authority.
• Will never admit that they are wrong no matter what, regardless of evidence
Thank you Boudicca for that well thought out information. I always thought those calling themselves “skeptics” didn’t understand the term and they were really just generalized, bar room nay-sayers.
But I haven’t examined or analyzed their behaviors as carefully as you have. Well done. I look forward to more of your analyses.
Boudicca, care to highlight any particular arguments on this blog that you find ‘pseudoskeptical’? I’d be happy to honestly debate any such claims with you.
Pseudoskeptics New Anti Troll Laws Big Bucks Already in Arizona, Australia and Scotland
Pseudo-skeptics are not just wrong and fallacious in their reasoning and approach with outright rejection of anything that doesn’t fit into a materialist orthodox paradigm. They’ve also, knowingly or unknowingly, engaged in deceptive mind control by hijacking critical terms to mean their OPPOSITE, including the very term “skeptic” itself. And they’ve hid what they truly are (suppressors of new ideas) by pretending to the opposite of what they are.
As mentioned earlier, a skeptic doubts, inquires, questions, ponders, etc. But these pseudo-skeptics do anything but. They attack, ridicule, discredit and suppress anything and everything that challenges the materialist reductionist paradigm. But don’t take my word for it. Just look at any article by James Randi, Michael Shermer, or Skeptical Inquirer, for example, and you will see that there is no questioning of what they are told, doubt or pondering of possibilities at all.
All they do is ridicule and attack anything related to paranormal and psychic phenomena, holistic medicine, and conspiracies. That’s not what skepticism is. The founder of the term itself meant this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeptic
• In classical philosophy, skepticism refers to the teachings and the traits of the ‘Skeptikoi’, a school of philosophers of whom it was said that they ‘asserted nothing but only opined.’ (Liddell and Scott) In this sense, philosophical skepticism, or Pyrrhonism, is the philosophical position that one should suspend judgment in investigations.
And according to Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary, a skeptic is:
“One who is yet undecided as to what is true; one who is looking or inquiring for what is true; an inquirer after facts or reasons.”
Now, take Michael Shermer for example. He is a professional skeptic who runs a Skeptic magazine, which makes him a prominent skeptic in the movement. But does he do any of the above? Does he doubt or question authority or orthodoxy? Does he ponder possibilities and the mysteries and wonders of life? Does he engage in a nonjudgmental open search for truth? No.
All he does is try to debunk and discredit. Just look at every article he writes and you will see that. Yet he is one of the “big name skeptics!” What does that tell you?!
So you see, these pseudoskeptics hijack the term “skeptic” so that it can’t be used against them. By calling themselves “skeptics”, they cast themselves as THE “skeptics” who question everything with critical thinking and doubt. And if you are a skeptic or critical thinker, then you will agree with them, so they hope.
Similarly, they’ve done the same with the terms “reason, rationality, logic, critical thinking, scientific” as well by hijacking them to fit their agenda, so that they support their agenda of discrediting anything related to paranormal, holistic or conspiratorial evidence.
In essence, what they’ve done is put themselves in a position of “ultimate authority” on reason, rationality, logic, critical thinking, etc. so that if you call yourself those things, then you must agree with them and their position. As such, being “reasonable and rational” means to AGREE with them. And “critical thinking” can only be used to reject what they reject, never to critique the pseudo-skeptics themselves, according to their paradigm, for they are “the critiquers”.
Thus, they’ve made it so that “critical thinking” and “skepticism” can’t be used against them, because they are THE “critical thinkers and skeptics”. It’s a very sly form of mind control that obfuscates the terms and attempts to shield them from “criticism” by putting them in the highest position of criticism.
As such, the term “skeptic” now refers to the one who suppresses and attacks the questioner, rather than the questioner himself. In other words, the new “skeptic” is someone who debunks a “skeptic” by wearing the hat of the person they are out to debunk, in effect impersonating them! It’s a highly deceptive form of role reversal that is sneaky and deceptive.
Fortunately though, the true skeptics, critical thinkers and freethinkers see through this BS and call them on it, expose this mind control and hijacking of terms to mean their opposite.
This whole movement of hijacking important words to mean their opposite, and militant suppression of new ideas, seems way too calculated and organized to be due to simple sheer human ignorance and narrow mindedness alone. Instead, it’s more indicative of an agenda, such as a disinformation or mind control campaign. This isn’t to say that all pseudo-skeptics are disinfo agents. But some might be, either knowingly or unknowingly. You have to remember that we are all mind controlled to some degree, one way or another. Even if these pseudo-skeptics are not knowingly involved in a disinfo campaign, they are likely to be mind controlled themselves by a disinfo/thought suppression campaign.
It’s a definite possibility, since after all, this world has more dark secrets than one can imagine, and most things are not what they appear to be. There is no question that they have hijacked terms and pretended to be the opposite of what they are.
By hiding behind the mask of critical rational thinkers and skeptics, they’ve hidden the fact that they are suppressors of new ideas that challenge old paradigms, thus making themselves look forward and progressive, rather than backwards and suppressive.
Now, this form of hiding what you are by pretending to be the opposite of what you are is nothing new. It’s a classic form of mind control.
Boudicca, unless you have a specific argument to make against any of the claims raised on this thread, I suggest you take your copypasta somewhere else.
Apparently, you haven’t bothered to look around here much.
Adam, no I don’t care to
This whole thread – have not read any other here and I don’t care to – reeks of gym room BO & sweat.
If only blackcat/TNM and a few ‘others’ would put away their smelly sneakers, pouach !
I think you should have credited these guys with majorly contributing to your post; http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/hijackingterms.php
Boudicca = altie bully on some sort of hallucinatory drug
That’s fine. You clearly have nothing to contribute as all of your posts are copied from other writers.
That’s fine. You clearly have nothing to contribute as all of your posts are copied from other writers.
Hello Maud. Boudicca is bat shit crazy maud on BCO. I think her other personas were patsy and rainbowpony.
It looks like you have been copying & pasting rants from Timmy Bolen. Unlike BCO, over here at RI, it’s customary to give credit where credit is due. Poaching other people’s words is frowned upon.
I have some advice for you, Maud. Take the Arimidex that your oncologist prescribed for you. Just becasuse Vivre told you that you should listen to your “woman’s intuition” on your deciscion is not a good reason not to take it. She was really advertising Christine Northrup’s book to you. Did you go to vivre’s amazon bookstore and purchase the book from her? You call others stupid and crazy and you make a possible life threatening decision on your gut feeling. What’s wrong with this picture?
Hey, I just heard on BCO that battery acid can cure cancer! Orally, rectally or IV.
You’re welcome D 😉
The pseudo-skeptic User Manual:
Before commencing to debunk, prepare your equipment.
Equipment needed: one armchair.
PUT on the right face. Cultivate a condescending air that
suggests that your personal opinions are backed by the full faith and credit of God.
EMPLOY vague, subjective, dismissive terms such as
“ridiculous” or “trivial” in a manner that suggests they have the full force of scientific authority.
PORTRAY science not as an open-ended process of discovery but as a holy war against unruly hordes of quackery-worshipping infidels. Since in war the ends justify the means, you may fudge, stretch or violate scientific method, or even omit it entirely, in the name of defending scientific method.
KEEP your arguments as abstract and theoretical as possible. This will “send the message” that accepted theory overrides any actual evidence that might challenge it–and that therefore no such evidence is worth examining.
REINFORCE the popular misconception that certain subjects are inherently unscientific. In other words, deliberately confuse the *process* of science with the *content* of science. (Someone may, of course, object that science must be neutral to subject matter and that only the investigative *process* can be scientifically responsible or irresponsible. If that happens, dismiss such objections using a method employed successfully by generations of politicians: simply reassure everyone that “there is no contradiction here.”)
ARRANGE to have your message echoed by persons of
authority. The degree to which you can stretch the truth is directly proportional to the prestige of your mouthpiece.
ALWAYS refer to unorthodox statements as “claims,” which
are “touted,” and to your own assertions as “facts,” which are “stated.”
AVOID examining the actual evidence. This allows you to say with impunity, “I have seen absolutely no evidence to support such ridiculous claims!” (Note that this technique has withstood the test of time, and dates back at least to the age of Galileo. By simply refusing to look through his telescope, the ecclesiastical authorities bought the Church over three centuries’ worth of denial free and clear!)
IF examining the evidence becomes unavoidable, report back that “there is nothing new here!” If confronted by a watertight body of evidence that has survived the most rigorous tests, simply dismiss it as being “too pat.”
EQUATE the necessary skeptical component of science with *all* of science. Emphasize the narrow, stringent, rigorous and critical elements of science to the exclusion of intuition, inspiration, exploration and integration. If anyone objects, accuse them of viewing science in exclusively fuzzy, subjective or metaphysical terms.
INSIST that the progress of science depends on explaining the unknown in terms of the known. In other words, science equals reductionism. You can apply the reductionist approach in any situation by discarding more and more and more evidence until what little is left can finally be explained entirely in terms of established knowledge.
DOWNPLAY the fact that free inquiry, legitimate
disagreement and respectful debate are a normal part of science.
AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY reinforce the notion that what is
familiar is necessarily rational. The unfamiliar is therefore
irrational, and consequently inadmissible as evidence.
STATE CATEGORICALLY that the unconventional arises
exclusively from the “will to believe” and may be dismissed as, at best, an honest misinterpretation of the conventional.
MAINTAIN that in investigations of unconventional
phenomena, a single flaw invalidates the whole. In conventional contexts, however, you may sagely remind the world that, “after all, situations are complex and human beings are imperfect.”
“Occam’s Razor,” or the “principle of parsimony,” says the
correct explanation of a mystery will usually involve the simplest fundamental principles. Insist, therefore, that the most familiar explanation is by definition the simplest! Imply strongly that Occam’s Razor is not merely a philosophical rule of thumb but an immutable law.
DISCOURAGE any study of history that may reveal today’s
dogma as yesterday’s heresy. Likewise, avoid discussing the many historical, philosophical and spiritual parallels between science and democracy.
SINCE the public tends to be unclear about the distinction
between evidence and proof, do your best to help maintain this murkiness. If absolute proof is lacking, state categorically that there is no evidence.
IF sufficient evidence has been presented to warrant
further investigation of an unusual phenomenon, argue that
“evidence alone proves nothing!” Ignore the fact that preliminary evidence is not supposed to prove *anything*.
In any case, imply that proof precedes evidence. This will
eliminate the possibility of initiating any meaningful process of investigation–particularly if no criteria of proof have yet been established for the phenomenon in question.
INSIST that criteria of proof cannot possibly be established
for phenomena that do not exist!
ALTHOUGH science is not supposed to tolerate vague or double standards, always insist that unconventional phenomena must be judged by a separate, yet ill-defined, set of scientific rules. Do this by declaring that “extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence”–but take care never to define where the “ordinary” ends and the “extraordinary” begins. This will allow you to manufacture an infinitely receding evidential horizon, i.e., to define “extraordinary” evidence as that which lies just out of reach at any
point in time.
PRACTICE debunkery-by-association. Lump together all
phenomena popularly deemed paranormal and suggest that their proponents and researchers speak with a single voice. In this way you can indiscriminately drag material across disciplinary lines or from one case to another to support your views as needed. For example, if a claim having some superficial similarity to the one at
hand has been (or is popularly assumed to have been) exposed as fraudulent, cite it as if it were an appropriate example. Then put on a gloating smile, lean back in your armchair and just say “I rest my case.”
USE the word “imagination” as an epithet that applies only
to seeing what’s *not* there, and not to denying what *is* there.
IF a significant number of people agree that they have
observed something that violates the consensus reality, simply ascribe it to “mass hallucination.” Avoid addressing the possibility that the consensus reality, which is routinely observed by millions, might itself constitute a mass hallucination.
RIDICULE, RIDICULE, RIDICULE. It is far and away the single most chillingly effective weapon in the war against discovery and innovation. Ridicule has the unique power to make people of virtually any persuasion go completely unconscious in a twinkling. It fails to sway only those few who are of sufficiently independent mind not to buy into the kind of emotional consensus that ridicule provides.
By appropriate innuendo and example, imply that ridicule
constitutes an essential feature of scientific method that can raise the level of objectivity, integrity and dispassionateness with which any investigation is conducted.
IMPLY investigators of the unorthodox are zealots.
Suggest that in order to investigate the existence of something one must first believe in it absolutely. Then demand that all such “true believers” know all the answers to their most puzzling questions in complete detail ahead of time. Convince people of your own sincerity by reassuring them that you yourself would “love to believe in these
fantastic phenomena.” Carefully sidestep the fact that science is not about believing or disbelieving, but about finding out.
USE smoke and mirrors,” i.e., obfuscation and illusion.
Never forget that a slippery mixture of fact, opinion, innuendo, out-of-context information and outright lies will fool most of the people most of the time. As little as one part fact to ten parts B.S. will usually do the trick. (Some veteran debunkers use homeopathic dilutions of fact with remarkable success!) Cultivate the art of
slipping back and forth between fact and fiction so undetectably that the flimsiest foundation of truth will always appear to firmly support your entire edifice of opinion.
EMPLOY ‘TCP’: Technically Correct Pseudo-refutation.
Example: if someone remarks that all great truths began as
blasphemies, respond immediately that not all blasphemies have become great truths. Because your response was technically correct, no one will notice that it did not really refute the original remark.
TRIVILIAZE the case by trivializing the entire field in
question. Characterize the study of orthodox phenomena as deep and time consuming, while deeming that of unorthodox phenomena so insubstantial as to demand nothing more than a scan of the tabloids. If pressed on this, simply say “but there’s nothing there to study!” Characterize any serious investigator of the unorthodox as a “buff”
or “freak,” or as “self-styled”-the media’s favorite code-word for “bogus.”
REMEMBER that most people do not have sufficient time or
expertise for careful discrimination, and tend to accept or reject the whole of an unfamiliar situation. So discredit the whole story by attempting to discredit *part* of the story. Here’s how: a) take one element of a case completely out of context; b) find something prosaic that hypothetically could explain it; c) declare that therefore that one element has been explained; d) call a press conference and announce to the world that the entire case has been explained!
ENGAGE the services of a professional stage magician who can mimic the phenomenon in question; for example, ESP, psychokinesis or levitation. This will convince the public that the original claimants or witnesses to such phenomena must themselves have been (or been fooled by) talented stage magicians who hoaxed the original phenomenon in precisely the same way.
FIND a prosaic phenomenon that resembles, no matter how superficially, the claimed phenomenon. Then suggest that the existence of the commonplace look-alike somehow forbids the existence of the genuine article. For example, imply that since people often see “faces” in rocks and clouds, the enigmatic Face on Mars must be a similar illusion and therefore cannot possibly be artificial.
WHEN an unexplained phenomenon demonstrates evidence of intelligence (as in the case of the mysterious crop circles) focus exclusively on the mechanism that might have been wielded by the intelligence rather than the intelligence that might have wielded the mechanism. The more attention you devote to the mechanism, the more easily you can distract people from considering the possibility of nonphysical or nonterrestrial intelligence.
ACCUSE investigators of unusual phenomena of believing in “invisible forces and extrasensory realities.” If they should point out that the physical sciences have *always* dealt with invisible forces and extrasensory realities (gravity? electromagnetism? . . . ) respond with a condescending chuckle that this is “a naive interpretation of the facts.”
INSIST that western science is completely objective, and is
based on no untestable assumptions, covert beliefs or ideological interests. If an unfamiliar or inexplicable phenomenon happens to be considred true and/or useful by a nonwestern or other traditional society, you may therefore dismiss it out of hand as “ignorant
misconception,” “medieval superstition” or “fairy lore.”
LABEL any poorly-understood phenomenon “occult,”
“paranormal,” “metaphysical,” “mystical” or “supernatural.” This will get most mainstream scientists off the case immediately on purely emotional grounds. If you’re lucky, this may delay any responsible investigation of such phenomena by decades or even centuries!
ASK questions that appear to contain generally-assumed
knowledge that supports your views; for example, “why do no police officers, military pilots, air traffic controllers or psychiatrists report UFOs?” (If someone points out that they do, insist that those who do must be mentally unstable.)
ASK unanswerable questions based on arbitrary criteria of
proof. For example, “if this claim were true, why haven’t we seen it on TV?” or “in this or that scientific journal?” Never forget the mother of all such questions: “If UFOs are extraterrestrial, why haven’t they landed on the White House lawn?”
REMEMBER that you can easily appear to refute anyone’s
claims by building “straw men” to demolish. One way to do this is to misquote them while preserving that convincing grain of truth; for example, by acting as if they have intended the extreme of any position they’ve taken. Another effective strategy with a long history of success is simply to misreplicate their experiments–or to avoid replicating them at all on grounds that to do so would be ridiculous or fruitless. To make the whole process even easier,
respond not to their actual claims but to their claims as reported by the media, or as propagated in popular myth.
INSIST that such-and-such unorthodox claim is not
scientifically testable because no self-respecting grantmaking organization would fund such ridiculous tests.
BE SELECTIVE. For example, if an unorthodox healing method has failed to reverse a case of terminal illness you may deem it worthlesswhile taking care to avoid mentioning any of the shortcomings of conventional medicine.
HOLD claimants responsible for the production values and
editorial policies of any media or press that reports their claim. If an unusual or inexplicable event is reported in a sensationalized manner, hold this as proof that the event itself must have been without substance or worth.
WHEN a witness or claimant states something in a manner
that is scientifically imperfect, treat this as if it were not
scientific at all. If the claimant is not a credentialed scientist,
argue that his or her perceptions cannot possibly be objective.
IF you’re unable to attack the facts of the case, attack the
participants–or the journalists who reported the case. Ad-hominem arguments, or personality attacks, are among the most powerful ways of swaying the public and avoiding the issue. For example, if investigators of the unorthodox have profited financially from activities connected with their research, accuse them of “profiting financially from activities connected with their research!” If their research, publishing, speaking tours and so forth, constitute their normal line of work or sole means of support, hold that fact as
“conclusive proof that income is being realized from such
activities!” If they have labored to achieve public recognition for their work, you may safely characterize them as “publicity seekers.”
FABRICATE supportive expertise as needed by quoting the
opinions of those in fields popularly assumed to include the
necessary knowledge. Astronomers, for example, may be trotted out as experts on the UFO question, although course credits in ufology have never been a prerequisite for a degree in astronomy.
FABRICATE confessions. If a phenomenon stubbornly refuses to go away, set up a couple of colorful old geezers to claim they hoaxed it. The press and the public will always tend to view confessions as sincerely motivated, and will promptly abandon their critical faculties. After all, nobody wants to appear to lack compassion for self-confessed sinners.
FABRICATE sources of disinformation. Claim that you’ve
“found the person who started the rumor that such a phenomenon exists!”
FABRICATE entire research projects. Declare that “these
claims have been thoroughly discredited by the top experts in the field!” Do this whether or not such experts have ever actually studied the claims, or, for that matter, even exist.
IF NOTHING WORKS AND ALL ELSE FAILS, USE BATTERY ACID, BUT MAKE SURE IT IS STILL CORROSIVE
And Boudie, like the other alties, refuses resolutely to answer any questions addressed to her and admit she has not read the thread.
But feels qualified to comment on it anyway. Amazing.
Boudicca
Why do you think that Orac let you post page after page of nonsense? Is it
a) You think that he is too openminded to delete your material
b) You think that he hasn’t figured out how to delete your lies
c) You think that he doesn’t realize that you have completely exposed him
d) You think that he’ll send you a check if you make alties look stupid enough
You left off “© 1997 by Daniel Drasin.”
@Narad:
Maud (boudicca) is infamous at BCO for pouching whatever she likes off the internet and claiming it as her own work.
I’ve never really understood what the goal of copypasta is, as a tactic. Why bother? What’s the point?
make that poaching
She will also interlace the piece that she stole off the internet with a few idiotic sentences or her own. It’s easy to tell where.
Apparently we struck a nerve and Boudi went into nonsense overdrive.
Thank you Boudicca.
This manual could have been used by The Flat Earth Society 🙂
After the predictable pseudoskeptical responses you got, you are entitled to say, “I rest my case!”
Pseudoskeps don’t realize when they walk into a trap of their own devising.
Still describing yourself. Bodie
D – weren’t you the guy who claimed that he had never heard of Protocel until a few days ago? I guess you were lying.
Yep, Boudicca is Maud.
I have great sympathy for the REAL physicians who treat these people.
Who is D? Possibly vivre?
Yawn…Skepgoating
Boudicca
Thanks for that Boudicca (btw you do understand about citing other’s work ?) it describes the peddlers of pseudoscience & scam miracle cures to a T.
Excellent article Sauceress!!
I don’t think I’ve never seen any pseudoskepticism here, just reasonable requests for some reliable evidence to support people’s claims. Refusing to accept anecdotal evidence and unsupported assertions doesn’t seem unreasonable to me. Perhaps that’s because I’m not an idiot.
Or even “I’ve ever seen”.
Let me see-
Well, I’m still trying to figure out the ‘nym and analogy:
brave rebel queen defends her homeland from foreign hostile occupiers and then dies. She loses.
Which makes us Roman legions, SBM the empire, Orac a general, the internet E. Anglia, comments projectiles…. and eventually the more technologically advanced culture prevails overtaking the more primitive tribal one. That’s not so bad.
@ black-cat –
Perhaps D is Kaara?
It isn’t abigail, that’s for sure. 🙂
And JLW is now posting as “Joy.”
I also thought it an excellent article from a great site that I just bookmarked. Thanks for posting it, Sauceress!
@AFriend
Actually I was sent a link to that article along with a link to the Robinson cancer scam on ACA. Not by a mutual friend…I checked 🙂
@JK
Yes, I can see D as Kaara. Good call. JoyLiesWIthin now becomes just Joy. She changes her identity more than Prince formally known as ….?
Speaking of Joy, where’s Leah?
The above article also reinforces the fact that the same avenues of cognitive dissonance are cultured by pseudoscience junkies of all flavours.
…and seeing as she/he/it likes that kind of thing so much, here’s some copypasta for Boudicca.
“Skepgoating: why antivaxxers need to devalue skepticism”
Now where have I seen that before? Sounds so familiar. I just can’t place the website that I experienced this on.
I seem to remember it as being a non profit website and the first letter began with a B.
@D (4:30 pm)
Predictable.
Oh what fun…yawn..
So, Boudicca.
Let me see if I’m following you.
If a believer tells a skeptic “look at the evidence for this holistic paranormal thing I want you to believe in!!” it seems like the skeptic has only two options in your paradigm: either the skeptic says “Oh yes! So completely correct; clearly the lint in your bellybutton is proof of Morgellons chemtrails HAARP GMOs!” or they say “Sorry, I don’t find the evidence provided to be of the extraordinary quality that would be needed to support the extraordinary thesis you’ve presented.” And in the latter case, you declare them a pseudoskeptic instead of a skeptic, and declare that they only found the evidence unconvincing because they didn’t look at all the evidence.
Right so far?
And yet when it’s suggested that you check the accuracy of the insults you have hurled at us by looking at other threads on this site, you answer that you don’t care to.
Can you answer the one question: under what single standard do you believe that skeptics are obligated to do more than you yourself are willing to do to try and support your beliefs?
Now unfortunately since you’ve shown a propensity to change the subject instead of answering questions respectfully directed to you, we need to set up something in the nature of an ultimatum. If you make three comments, on this thread or any other, without giving an answer to the question, the third such comment will be taken as your admission that you have no answer. It’s one of the only ways to deal with people who constantly change the subject in order to try and gain an advantage.
Boudicca is obviously a one-trick “copypasta and run” troll.
Ever-dense as a substitute for evidence.
Sauceress,
I have learned not to be drinking or eating anything when I read your posts. I spit milk all over my computer screen when I read your troll comment. Had quite the clean up to do. Ever think of doing stand up comedy? You would be good at it.
That was the first troll comment to Leah that I was referring to. Too funny.
Since it’s apparently impossible to be skeptical of both “the man” and my own subjective experience at the same time, my brain most certainly will explode now.
5-4-3-2-1…………
Dang. Still here. Guess my brain has a mind of its own. (insert rimshot).
@Spam master Boudicca – I’m trying to find your Einstein quote exactly as stated and can’t, though I find it on a lot of stuff just like you pasted in here it is never a real quote. Could you please help me and send me a reference that says where it comes from? Thank you.
I’m trying to figure this out – it sounds like you’ve pulled up your armchair and put the appropriate attitude on already for sure.
See, when someone insists that they want to see proof of concept, they have studies that show the limits and how much better the recommended treatment is than placebo (which is pretty much water/sugar, etc.). I have never heard an honest doctor, etc., claim that they could guarantee a cure. They will give you honest percentages and tell you why (and what studies brought them to that conclusion, if you ask) they are recommending a certain treatment.
Since you’re suggesting that we’re dismissing evidence out of hand, what evidence do you have that I can look at? I’m willing to examine anything. I bet that most cancer researchers are, too, if the treatment makes sense (i.e., saying that if you stood on your head fifteen minutes of every hour for at least six hours in a row every day would cure cancer would probably be considered an unlikely claim).
What frustrates people like me (I can only speak for me and from personal experience) is people who make outrageous claims with no real evidence (stories over the internet don’t count if I can’t verify them, etc.) and try to sell people on things that won’t work and may very well be harmful for them (i.e. cesium chloride, laetrile). Also don’t like it when people frighten rather than encourage patients who are already pretty doggone scared in an attempt to get them to avoid treatment with real studies for an unproven and often ineffective “cure.”
Why does that make me a bad person? I’ve been subjected to a ton of useless alternative treatments that have done nothing but wasted money and made me sick just because Mr Woo would rather buy hope than deal with reality and patience and keep watching/reading real research to see what is “coming down the pike,” so to speak.
@Boudicca
Read my comment at 3:36pm. It was held in moderation so you may not have seen it. Oddly enough, I see you more as one of BCO’s victims as opposed to one of the predators. Sometimes the lines are blurred. You are just too ignorant to seperate the wheat from the chaff.
This?
“Einstein used to claim; in fact, most of the great physicist, mathematicians, etc. from the dark ages forward, were men (and a few women) of god — people with exceptionally strong faith, that sought to better define the Divine and it’s greatness by way of science”
It’s a broken cut-and-paste from here.
Boudicca,
Orac covered the stupidity of Christine Northrup’s stupid idea of “using your inner wisdom to make your health choices”
“If you want evidence that Dr. Northrup has truly gone completely woo, look no further than this next passage:
As with anything, I suggest you let your inner guidance help you in all decisions about your health. If you feel it’s best to get an annual mammogram, then by all means continue with them. Just be aware of the drawbacks and risks associated with the test
“. Her statements are scientifically unjustified, profoundly unethical, and potentially dangerous to patients. Pure ridiculousness doesn’t even come close to describing them. Many are the women whom I’ve met who “just knew” they were fine until their family persuaded them to undergo mammography, which then found real, invasive cancers. I don’t have much faith in anyone’s “inner guidance” with regard to asymptomatic disease. In essence, Northrup is urging women to base their health care decisions on intuition rather than science”
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2010/10/13/the-huffington-post-promotes-breast-canc/
vivre used you for her own sick and selfish agenda. If you don’t want to take the arimidex, base it on a sound scientific decision rather than your woman’s intuition or gut feeling that you should not be taking it.
Black-cat
Thank the sycophants of the pseudoscience “miracle cure” cults.
Just so much material to work with. I occasionally have cause to briefly wonder if the trolls are in fact Poes out to ridicule all these miracle cancer cure scam alties. Alas I know that’s not the case.
~~~
@Thomas (July 18, 4:00 pm)
I’m going for answer d)
Thank you Narad!
So it was only insinuating that Einstein said it. How wonderfully disingenuous. It didn’t sound like anything I’ve ever read quoting Einstein before. He was, in some ways, a pantheist, but didn’t believe in the typical dogmatic type of faith with a personified divinity. Sometimes I wonder if that is where my own faith journey will ultimately take me.
Boudicca,
You really don’t get it, do you?
This blog post is about Entelev, CanCell, and Cantron (and Protocel) and quacks who sell it to cancer patients.
It’s a very important and relevant post to me as a cancer patient myself, who is frustrated by these lowlife quacks promoting it in lieu of *real* treatment for cancer. It’s disgusting and despicable to me that anyone could stoop so low as to prey on cancer patients. Believe me, if Protocol had ANY legitimate evidence of working, I’d be all over it. I’d love nothing more than to find that simply drinking a quarter-teaspoon of the stuff 12 times a day or whatever, was the cure. So would every other cancer patient and friend/family member I know! All we are asking for is evidence.
What do you have to hide? Why do you and the other Protocel promoters become so defensive and unhinged when we ask for real information? Where is the data to support its efficacy and safety? Really, I just don’t get what’s so hard about it.
The way I see it, either you (not necessarily you in particular, but anyone who promotes or sells it) offer up some legitimate information or you’re simply making shit up.
Antaeus Feldspar has put forth a reasonable challenge to you several times here, so what’s it gonna be?
By the way, I’m not Black-Cat or Redblotch (???) or anyone else. You have so many facts so very, very mixed up, but my identity aside, what about the topic of discussion here?
@thenewme:
In this case I would not be opposed to the topic changed to “listening to your woman’s intuition”according to vivre’s mentor, Christine Norhrup.
Budicca is obviously maud on bco. If you do a search, you will see that vivre has talked maud out of taking Arimidex as prescribed by her MO. The premise was “your intuition knows so much more than doctors”
Vivre has been vomiting out the same story over and over for the past two years of how she put her newly prescribed Arimidex in her mouth, got hit by women’s intuitiion, and not only spit the pills out but hurled her toxic pill bottle across the room and was cleansed of the devil. Amen. Christine Norhrup and vivres website are than promoted.
Maud is her most recent victim.
thenewme,
Has it really been two years that we have been fighting cancer quackery with the alties on BCO? You have been at it much longer than me. How time flies.
Seems longer than that 🙂
Yes, you two my friend. Thanks for the email! I did not want to lose touch with you. We should give ourselves a name. The BCO altie battle was bravely carried out.
I can’t seem to spell on this site to save my life
I was always better at science than english
Welcome to the pseudoskeps’ Psychic Friends Network.
@blackcat, do you know who wrote this manual? Also I’m curious to know is it a required reading in Chemical School?
[The pseudo-skeptic User Manual:
Before commencing to debunk, prepare your equipment.
Equipment needed: one armchair.
PUT on the right face. Cultivate a condescending air that
suggests that your personal opinions are backed by the full faith and credit of God.
EMPLOY vague, subjective, dismissive terms such as
“ridiculous” or “trivial” in a manner that suggests they have the full force of scientific authority.
PORTRAY science not as an open-ended process of discovery but as a holy war against unruly hordes of quackery-worshipping infidels. Since in war the ends justify the means, you may fudge, stretch or violate scientific method, or even omit it entirely, in the name of defending scientific method.
KEEP your arguments as abstract and theoretical as possible. This will “send the message” that accepted theory overrides any actual evidence that might challenge it–and that therefore no such evidence is worth examining.
REINFORCE the popular misconception that certain subjects are inherently unscientific. In other words, deliberately confuse the *process* of science with the *content* of science. (Someone may, of course, object that science must be neutral to subject matter and that only the investigative *process* can be scientifically responsible or irresponsible. If that happens, dismiss such objections using a method employed successfully by generations of politicians: simply reassure everyone that “there is no contradiction here.”)
ARRANGE to have your message echoed by persons of
authority. The degree to which you can stretch the truth is directly proportional to the prestige of your mouthpiece.
ALWAYS refer to unorthodox statements as “claims,” which
are “touted,” and to your own assertions as “facts,” which are “stated.”
AVOID examining the actual evidence. This allows you to say with impunity, “I have seen absolutely no evidence to support such ridiculous claims!” (Note that this technique has withstood the test of time, and dates back at least to the age of Galileo. By simply refusing to look through his telescope, the ecclesiastical authorities bought the Church over three centuries’ worth of denial free and clear!)
IF examining the evidence becomes unavoidable, report back that “there is nothing new here!” If confronted by a watertight body of evidence that has survived the most rigorous tests, simply dismiss it as being “too pat.”
EQUATE the necessary skeptical component of science with *all* of science. Emphasize the narrow, stringent, rigorous and critical elements of science to the exclusion of intuition, inspiration, exploration and integration. If anyone objects, accuse them of viewing science in exclusively fuzzy, subjective or metaphysical terms.
INSIST that the progress of science depends on explaining the unknown in terms of the known. In other words, science equals reductionism. You can apply the reductionist approach in any situation by discarding more and more and more evidence until what little is left can finally be explained entirely in terms of established knowledge.
DOWNPLAY the fact that free inquiry, legitimate
disagreement and respectful debate are a normal part of science.
AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY reinforce the notion that what is
familiar is necessarily rational. The unfamiliar is therefore
irrational, and consequently inadmissible as evidence.
STATE CATEGORICALLY that the unconventional arises
exclusively from the “will to believe” and may be dismissed as, at best, an honest misinterpretation of the conventional.
MAINTAIN that in investigations of unconventional
phenomena, a single flaw invalidates the whole. In conventional contexts, however, you may sagely remind the world that, “after all, situations are complex and human beings are imperfect.”
“Occam’s Razor,” or the “principle of parsimony,” says the
correct explanation of a mystery will usually involve the simplest fundamental principles. Insist, therefore, that the most familiar explanation is by definition the simplest! Imply strongly that Occam’s Razor is not merely a philosophical rule of thumb but an immutable law.
DISCOURAGE any study of history that may reveal today’s
dogma as yesterday’s heresy. Likewise, avoid discussing the many historical, philosophical and spiritual parallels between science and democracy.
SINCE the public tends to be unclear about the distinction
between evidence and proof, do your best to help maintain this murkiness. If absolute proof is lacking, state categorically that there is no evidence.
IF sufficient evidence has been presented to warrant
further investigation of an unusual phenomenon, argue that
“evidence alone proves nothing!” Ignore the fact that preliminary evidence is not supposed to prove *anything*.
In any case, imply that proof precedes evidence. This will
eliminate the possibility of initiating any meaningful process of investigation–particularly if no criteria of proof have yet been established for the phenomenon in question.
INSIST that criteria of proof cannot possibly be established
for phenomena that do not exist!
ALTHOUGH science is not supposed to tolerate vague or double standards, always insist that unconventional phenomena must be judged by a separate, yet ill-defined, set of scientific rules. Do this by declaring that “extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence”–but take care never to define where the “ordinary” ends and the “extraordinary” begins. This will allow you to manufacture an infinitely receding evidential horizon, i.e., to define “extraordinary” evidence as that which lies just out of reach at any
point in time.
PRACTICE debunkery-by-association. Lump together all
phenomena popularly deemed paranormal and suggest that their proponents and researchers speak with a single voice. In this way you can indiscriminately drag material across disciplinary lines or from one case to another to support your views as needed. For example, if a claim having some superficial similarity to the one at
hand has been (or is popularly assumed to have been) exposed as fraudulent, cite it as if it were an appropriate example. Then put on a gloating smile, lean back in your armchair and just say “I rest my case.”
USE the word “imagination” as an epithet that applies only
to seeing what’s *not* there, and not to denying what *is* there.
IF a significant number of people agree that they have
observed something that violates the consensus reality, simply ascribe it to “mass hallucination.” Avoid addressing the possibility that the consensus reality, which is routinely observed by millions, might itself constitute a mass hallucination.
RIDICULE, RIDICULE, RIDICULE. It is far and away the single most chillingly effective weapon in the war against discovery and innovation. Ridicule has the unique power to make people of virtually any persuasion go completely unconscious in a twinkling. It fails to sway only those few who are of sufficiently independent mind not to buy into the kind of emotional consensus that ridicule provides.
By appropriate innuendo and example, imply that ridicule
constitutes an essential feature of scientific method that can raise the level of objectivity, integrity and dispassionateness with which any investigation is conducted.
IMPLY investigators of the unorthodox are zealots.
Suggest that in order to investigate the existence of something one must first believe in it absolutely. Then demand that all such “true believers” know all the answers to their most puzzling questions in complete detail ahead of time. Convince people of your own sincerity by reassuring them that you yourself would “love to believe in these
fantastic phenomena.” Carefully sidestep the fact that science is not about believing or disbelieving, but about finding out.
USE smoke and mirrors,” i.e., obfuscation and illusion.
Never forget that a slippery mixture of fact, opinion, innuendo, out-of-context information and outright lies will fool most of the people most of the time. As little as one part fact to ten parts B.S. will usually do the trick. (Some veteran debunkers use homeopathic dilutions of fact with remarkable success!) Cultivate the art of
slipping back and forth between fact and fiction so undetectably that the flimsiest foundation of truth will always appear to firmly support your entire edifice of opinion.
EMPLOY ‘TCP’: Technically Correct Pseudo-refutation.
Example: if someone remarks that all great truths began as
blasphemies, respond immediately that not all blasphemies have become great truths. Because your response was technically correct, no one will notice that it did not really refute the original remark.
TRIVILIAZE the case by trivializing the entire field in
question. Characterize the study of orthodox phenomena as deep and time consuming, while deeming that of unorthodox phenomena so insubstantial as to demand nothing more than a scan of the tabloids. If pressed on this, simply say “but there’s nothing there to study!” Characterize any serious investigator of the unorthodox as a “buff”
or “freak,” or as “self-styled”-the media’s favorite code-word for “bogus.”
REMEMBER that most people do not have sufficient time or
expertise for careful discrimination, and tend to accept or reject the whole of an unfamiliar situation. So discredit the whole story by attempting to discredit *part* of the story. Here’s how: a) take one element of a case completely out of context; b) find something prosaic that hypothetically could explain it; c) declare that therefore that one element has been explained; d) call a press conference and announce to the world that the entire case has been explained!
ENGAGE the services of a professional stage magician who can mimic the phenomenon in question; for example, ESP, psychokinesis or levitation. This will convince the public that the original claimants or witnesses to such phenomena must themselves have been (or been fooled by) talented stage magicians who hoaxed the original phenomenon in precisely the same way.
FIND a prosaic phenomenon that resembles, no matter how superficially, the claimed phenomenon. Then suggest that the existence of the commonplace look-alike somehow forbids the existence of the genuine article. For example, imply that since people often see “faces” in rocks and clouds, the enigmatic Face on Mars must be a similar illusion and therefore cannot possibly be artificial.
WHEN an unexplained phenomenon demonstrates evidence of intelligence (as in the case of the mysterious crop circles) focus exclusively on the mechanism that might have been wielded by the intelligence rather than the intelligence that might have wielded the mechanism. The more attention you devote to the mechanism, the more easily you can distract people from considering the possibility of nonphysical or nonterrestrial intelligence.
ACCUSE investigators of unusual phenomena of believing in “invisible forces and extrasensory realities.” If they should point out that the physical sciences have *always* dealt with invisible forces and extrasensory realities (gravity? electromagnetism? . . . ) respond with a condescending chuckle that this is “a naive interpretation of the facts.”
INSIST that western science is completely objective, and is
based on no untestable assumptions, covert beliefs or ideological interests. If an unfamiliar or inexplicable phenomenon happens to be considred true and/or useful by a nonwestern or other traditional society, you may therefore dismiss it out of hand as “ignorant
misconception,” “medieval superstition” or “fairy lore.”
LABEL any poorly-understood phenomenon “occult,”
“paranormal,” “metaphysical,” “mystical” or “supernatural.” This will get most mainstream scientists off the case immediately on purely emotional grounds. If you’re lucky, this may delay any responsible investigation of such phenomena by decades or even centuries!
ASK questions that appear to contain generally-assumed
knowledge that supports your views; for example, “why do no police officers, military pilots, air traffic controllers or psychiatrists report UFOs?” (If someone points out that they do, insist that those who do must be mentally unstable.)
ASK unanswerable questions based on arbitrary criteria of
proof. For example, “if this claim were true, why haven’t we seen it on TV?” or “in this or that scientific journal?” Never forget the mother of all such questions: “If UFOs are extraterrestrial, why haven’t they landed on the White House lawn?”
REMEMBER that you can easily appear to refute anyone’s
claims by building “straw men” to demolish. One way to do this is to misquote them while preserving that convincing grain of truth; for example, by acting as if they have intended the extreme of any position they’ve taken. Another effective strategy with a long history of success is simply to misreplicate their experiments–or to avoid replicating them at all on grounds that to do so would be ridiculous or fruitless. To make the whole process even easier,
respond not to their actual claims but to their claims as reported by the media, or as propagated in popular myth.
INSIST that such-and-such unorthodox claim is not
scientifically testable because no self-respecting grantmaking organization would fund such ridiculous tests.
BE SELECTIVE. For example, if an unorthodox healing method has failed to reverse a case of terminal illness you may deem it worthlesswhile taking care to avoid mentioning any of the shortcomings of conventional medicine.
HOLD claimants responsible for the production values and
editorial policies of any media or press that reports their claim. If an unusual or inexplicable event is reported in a sensationalized manner, hold this as proof that the event itself must have been without substance or worth.
WHEN a witness or claimant states something in a manner
that is scientifically imperfect, treat this as if it were not
scientific at all. If the claimant is not a credentialed scientist,
argue that his or her perceptions cannot possibly be objective.
IF you’re unable to attack the facts of the case, attack the
participants–or the journalists who reported the case. Ad-hominem arguments, or personality attacks, are among the most powerful ways of swaying the public and avoiding the issue. For example, if investigators of the unorthodox have profited financially from activities connected with their research, accuse them of “profiting financially from activities connected with their research!” If their research, publishing, speaking tours and so forth, constitute their normal line of work or sole means of support, hold that fact as
“conclusive proof that income is being realized from such
activities!” If they have labored to achieve public recognition for their work, you may safely characterize them as “publicity seekers.”
FABRICATE supportive expertise as needed by quoting the
opinions of those in fields popularly assumed to include the
necessary knowledge. Astronomers, for example, may be trotted out as experts on the UFO question, although course credits in ufology have never been a prerequisite for a degree in astronomy.
FABRICATE confessions. If a phenomenon stubbornly refuses to go away, set up a couple of colorful old geezers to claim they hoaxed it. The press and the public will always tend to view confessions as sincerely motivated, and will promptly abandon their critical faculties. After all, nobody wants to appear to lack compassion for self-confessed sinners.
FABRICATE sources of disinformation. Claim that you’ve
“found the person who started the rumor that such a phenomenon exists!”
FABRICATE entire research projects. Declare that “these
claims have been thoroughly discredited by the top experts in the field!” Do this whether or not such experts have ever actually studied the claims, or, for that matter, even exist.
IF NOTHING WORKS AND ALL ELSE FAILS, USE BATTERY ACID, BUT MAKE SURE IT IS STILL CORROSIVE]
Oh my..
The poor dears have been reduced to spamming. That really is sad.
So Leah did you read Boudicca’s last string of comments? We are all familiar to that and wish you could at least credit your source if you are simply going to cut and paste her cut and paste.
Leah – were you too lazy to read up above and see we have already had your manual published.
Leah’s up to two of her three. I’m surprised that under those circumstances she would waste her time simply copying her fellow altie’s spam. But then again, what other choice does she have?
Leah,
Is there any legitimate evidence that shows Protocel is a safe and effective treatment for breast cancer?
@leah
How utterly amusing, you can’t think of a single coherent argument and are reduced to copy-pasting and plagiarism. Guess that you automatically admit you forfeit the argument.
@novalox,
What’s that old saying…. something like “If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, then bury ’em with BS???”
The walls of copypasta (love that term!) are straight from the skepgoating (love that one too!) playbook.
@Leah and Boudicca – would you please answer questions instead of just copy and pasting implied insults (apparently you’ve run out of the creativity necessary to create your own)?
Please give me links to read the studies showing how effective Protocel is. Let me see them and read them. I would love to know the research.
So far, you only give me vague anecdotes about how well it was doing for so many people over history – no blinding, no adjustment for confounding factors, just anecdotes. Please give me a study of a group of people with some given standard treatment and others Protocel, or placebo and Protocel. Show me that it works. Is that too much to ask?
If you’re pushing a product at scared patients that has absolutely no real proof or history of effective treatment, you’re practically a murderer, and definitely a fraud.
“Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.”. Robert Heinlein
Leah,
Where is this actual evidence we are refusing to look at? If you honestly believe that Cancell works, I suggest you read this article to see what sort of evidence would be acceptable.
@leah
I believe somebody has already pointed out the author of that “manuel” , when Boudicca tried to claim it as her own work.
What on earth is chemical school?
<
Apparently, the very thread you’re commenting in isn’t “a required reading” in whatever pedagogical tradition you yourself have oozed from.
More banning on BCO going on – still the altie sock puppets get away with it.
Whose getting banned? Someone told me that mauds out. I wonder if vivre now has to choose with one of her eleven identities to keep.
@Blackcat
Sunflowers
Not an altie – Sunflowers was banned for a response she sent to a PM from the mods – really really crazy decision.
The mods seem to be very emotional women who have knee jerk reactions to events without thinking.
I noticed a mob like hysteria that grows bigger and bigger when a new altie announces she will be curing herself with althernative medicine. The altie is cheered on by the mob and a lynch mob mentality will attack anybody who tries to dissent and bring the voice of reason to the thread.
This happened with wornoutmom, chilli, katrn and one other person that I cant think of right now. This is actually something new that has evolved on the altie thread. It did not happen to impositive when she annouced that cancer was a fungas and she was going to cure herself with dusting her breast with antifungals and drinking baking soda.
The mods joined in with wornoutmom. After I posted to Chilli that black salve was a scam, a support thread was started. I posted twice to support her, wanting to get the black salve thread buried and forgotten. The mods deleted both posts which were just my words of encouragement. You can still see these posts if you search my name. Under name searches you can still see a lot of the posts that were deleted by the mods by who wrote them. I did not break any forum rules. Right after they deleted those posts they banned me the first time. I emailed them numeros times but was ignored. I did not do anything to deserve getting banned. Before this they always answered my emails. I guess they were ticked off at me for being chillis party pooper. You can also see how JoyLIesWithin went ballistic with posts that I was going to drive Chilli to suicide and that her family would come back and sue BCO. She created a mob like hysteria after my post
Ok, so I have been lurking on this site since all the s*** went down. My background -I’m over on BCO with the same username. (I am constantly amazed that people have more than one identity – folks need to get a hobby!)
I guess I would be considered kind of an altie on this blog, although I consider myself more of an integrative person – I did all the conventional treatments, ACT, surgery, radiation, Herceptin, and now I’m on Tamoxifen. However, I also did and continue to do a lot of CAM treatments and therapies that I think reduce side effects, risk of recurrence, etc. I really like Dr. Block and Dr. Servan-Schreiber’s books. I feel that my CAM/diet/exercise strategies really helped me sail through chemo and radiation and heal super fast from surgery. At one point, my onc looked at me and said, “I wish we could study people like you.”
That being said, I would not recommend alternatives in lieu of conventional treatment save for two situations. 1.) they absolutely can’t do chemo due to something super serious like congestive heart failure. I feel for those ladies – has to be a tough choice. 2.) The doctors have declared that there is nothing left to do from the conventional options.
Outside of those two situations, I tend to encourage an integrative approach similar to what I did.
So that’s a little bit about me. I didn’t always agree with BlackCat, but I’m really bummed that she isn’t on BCO anymore. That just isn’t right. I didn’t always love the tone of her posts, but I also never thought she was bullying anyone. She is clearly extremely smart and really knows how to read studies. I’ll miss her perspective.
On the flip side, I don’t think Kat is a scammer – I think she is a real woman having success with Protecel (for whatever reason.) I don’t know why she is having regression, but she said her scans show regression, so that is a good thing in my book. When you are Stage IV, you have a lot of treatments in front of you. If she is having regression on Protecel, then she doesn’t have to do chemo right now. I like Kat; she seems like a very nice person and I hope that she lives a long, long time.
I’d also like to say that most of the women on the alt boards are pretty balanced. A lot of them are women like me who are using CAM treatments in an integrative fashion.
Finally, if anyone is really PMing newbies to talk them out of chemo, that’s epically uncool. You have enough crap to deal with after a cancer diagnosis without having someone you don’t know shove their beliefs down your throat.
So…just weighing in as a regular on the Alt Forum on BCO. I guess I wanted to post because the general belief here is that all the alt women on BCO are crazy lunatics who are trying to bilk everyone out of money. In reality, I think we are a bunch of women trying to do everything we can to beat cancer.
@ Black-cat:
Sometimes people cheer others on because they need to rally their own spirits and quash their own doubts.
I think you might do better work away from there: you can’t convince the true believers and perhaps you have already resonated with those who have some doubts.
I personally try to speak to those with a similar perspective to my own AND to those currently on the fence: perhaps what I say might be enough to ‘turn the tide’.
Some are just unreachable: I wouldn’t expect a partisan to convert solely because of what I say but I would hope to influence incremental learning ( or doubting) on their part. I only comment on blogs that represent my own beliefs- not on contrarians’- I don’t want them to have the e-mail I use and most of them censor heavily anyway.
On a blog like RI, for every person who ‘speaks up’, there are several ( maybe many) lurkers who may be influenced by what you say. I would purely guess but do venture that those who stick around are not the absolute contrarians but those who want to learn from our esteemed and gracious host and our fabulous commenters even though they might still be on the fence. Learning is incremental and it takes time.
@Denice,
I know what you’re saying, but (!). I’m not black-cat, but my rationale for posting skeptical and evidence-based information on BCO was exactly that – to reach the fence sitters.
One example you’ll recognize is Paul “Nodules” Hill. He came onto BCO, a forum full of breast cancer patients desperately seeking information, and tells them they can just follow his ketone diet regimen and throw away their evil Big Pharma meds. (Oh, and his woo supposedly works to cure diabetes, epilepsy, obesity, migraines, etc., too!). He had some big fans there, begging him for more information on his miraculous cure.
Another great example is a recent poster who had a very large grade III DCIS breast tumor, and she wanted to avoid all conventional treatment, even surgery to remove it! She was cheered on by the same people, calling her brave and heroic and clever for daring to stand up to the medical industrial complex.
I don’t believe they’re all real, legitimate posters, but as a BC patient myself, I can’t just stand by and let this kind of dangerous misinformation stand unchallenged. So it’s not only the original poster I’m trying to reach, but also the silent non-posting lurkers who may be reachable.
Some people seem to think it’s a game or simply an academic exercise, but for me on that particular forum, I can’t help looking at it from a life-or-death perspective.
Now Athena has been banned – going crazy over there!!!
@ the newme:
I hope you continue.
Some of what you, Black-cat and others comment about the true believers@ BC.org shows us why it’s important for us all to combat pseudo-science.
Woo wastes time, effort, money and LIFE.
Believe that there is a paucity of good moderators there. It’s one or more and they are screwing up one ban at a time. Running off some of the best and the brightest. Meanwhile the sock puppet reigns supreme.
Read that maud was booted too. Not sad about that one.
@DeniceWalters:
The pms that I received from the fence sitters and seeing the traffic that the altie forums generated (lurkers) kept me going.
I thought of you when I posted about the mass hysteria and wondered if it was anything you encountered in your career or read about.
When a member announces that she is going to cure herself with her own concoction, the hysteria and elation justs builds and they seem to feed off of each other. Even though they seem to be in a state of euphoria, the atmosphere feels tense and anxious to me. These actions are not of reasonable and rational people.
@AFriend:
Which althea was banned and what for?
@DeniseWalters:
There also seems to be an urgency to these and the tension seems to keep building. More and more alties jump on board as the thread progresses. It’s like they are under the influence of some kind of drug and any attempt to bring them down will be met with extreme anger.
It was Athena1. Now apparently the person who mentioned that on the thread has gotten booted too.
Mod on steroids?
But, the resonance who was booted for mentioning that Athena was booted only had one post. Another alter ego perhaps?
Rn auto correct! The person who was booted….
Athena was banned for a couple of comments that were removed, so I don’t know what they said. They would have been rage about Sunflowers being banned.
Did they say why she was booted?
It’s for 10 days I think – usual thing if comments removed I guess
@ Black-cat:
There’s a lot of stuff in the literature about how people behave in crowds or cohesive groups- in general, there is more extremism in both action and speech. There’s a concept called ‘Groupthink” that is usually about bad decision making by governments wherein the insulated group thinks it can’t be wrong, feels righteous, demonises and kicks out dissenters- this might be vaguely applicable.
Here’s one thing to keep in mind: there will always be groups who have odd ideas and they will cluster together; the internet makes that easier. There’s only so much that we can do. I know for certain that at least 2 of the ‘writers’ ( and I do use that term loosely) at Age of Autism really dislike what I have to say and think that I don’t know about what I’m speaking. I take that as a compliment because they have poor judgment and bad taste. And I’m in good company. Illustrious company actually.
You and the other SB refugees from BC.org have important work to do.
@Black-cat,
I think there is some groupthink involved, but honestly, I think it’s more of a feeding frenzy type reaction. As you know, most of them are financially involved with woo commerce. They make money by either selling directly or profiting indirectly from shilling the stuff, so they feel threatened when confronted with questions and facts.
Also, as you know, most of them are heavily involved politically with the Health Freedom garbage, Canary Party, libertarian movement, anti-science partisan propaganda, etc. Of course these agenda-based groups are also extremely intolerant of threatened by evidence-based science and factual information. They’re truth-phobic to the point of paranoia and frantic derangement, which is demonstrated perfectly by the recent posts here and on BCO (and elsewhere, of course).
I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see the frenzy level continue to escalate between now and November 6. Ack.
Huh. This is fascinating to me. I really must not be paying attention. I had no idea people were selling stuff.
@sweetbean
Yep, nearly all of the “regulars” there are selling stuff. Some of ’em say they’re not “selling,” since they’re just shills who receive a commission from the sales, but it’s pretty clear. Do a search there for things like Usana, protocel, infrared saunas, rebounders, naturalnews, mercola, ineways, essanatural, melaleuca, rethinkthepink, etc. They’re all there, hidden in plain sight. Allowed and encouraged on BCO. Almost all the “natural girls” have clear vested interests in promoting these scam treatments.
Wikipedia has some good information on “roach baiting,” or stealth marketing / guerilla marketing. Unfortunately for real breast cancer patients, these scamsters have found a great target audience at BCO. It’s a terrible shame, especially when legitimate posters are systematically driven away. BCO is becoming just another whaleto or National Enquirer instead of a fantastic valuable resource for breast cancer patients. Sad.
@thenewme,
I hadn’t heard of essanatural, but there is someone on the forum whose screen name is, in part, essa. Have I just connected more dots, or is that really unrelated?
@black-cat,
I mentioned upthread that maybe D is Kaara. Now, perhaps, I think it might be dianeessa? Or someone named dunesleeper?
@sweetbean,
I have been a lurker at BCO for a while and want to thank you, too, for the information you’ve shared.
I, too, am a BC patient, and received a two-for-one treatment special: IIIC lobular on the left, IA ductal on the right. TAC*6, L mast, R lump, recon, bilateral rads, tamox.
It makes me nuts when I see those oh-so-rebellious alties patting themselves on the back for refusing some conventional treatments. Well, if I had “only” a Stage 0 or 1, grade 1, hormone-positive tumor, and/or was 70+ and didn’t need rads, I might have foregone some of these things, too. But I wouldn’t be smug about it – I’d be utterly thrilled to have dodged some of these bullets and I’d keep my mouth shut about it around women who didn’t.
Leah:
“The pseudo-skeptic User Manual:”
Wow. That sounds like a lot of effort. No wonder you stick with the “Scammers Manual” – it’s a lot easier
“Lie and lie again”
@thenewme: Oof. I didn’t know that. That’s not cool. How many people are we talking about?
@JK – nice to meet you. Glad I could share some useful information!
@JK, yes, I agree. Sometimes the women come across as gloating and that is bothersome. My tumor was the size of a lemon, Grade 2-3, lymph node involvement, LVI, and I had just turned 37. My sister told me that if I had decided against conv treatments, she was going to “chase me around with a needle and a bag of chemo.”
@JK – yep. Keep connecting those same dots and you’ll find yourself in one of the tangled webs they weave (…where they practice to deceive!). There’s womens fiction, BHRT anti-aging products, organic fertilizer, etc., etc., etc! Of course they all lead right back to the bottom line ($$$) consisting of MLM scams, fraudulent quackery, affiliate network marketing, etc.
@sweetbean, I know. Not cool at all. I honestly don’t know how many people (and/or how many sockpuppets) we’re talking about, but it’s just sick, isn’t it?
Oh, and just to clarify, I personally have no problem with people earning income by selling products, including books, fertilizer, supplements, or whatever (when promoted and sold honestly and ethically!).
I have a huge problem with misinformation, distorted half-truths, and outright lies, especially when targeted to vulnerable audiences like on a breast cancer support forum.
Unfortunately, the examples I posted above are NOT promoted/sold honestly and ethically. Ack.
I’m no where near as good at connecting dots as the thenewme and black cat, but the more I visited the Alt forum the more it seemed like a commercial shill for books, supplements and then these scary, useless debunked therapies.
I don’t look anymore and I don’t ever refer newbies it that forum even if they ask about some weird substance that is the new cure.
I’ll admit, I’m one of the dumb ones at BCO. I want to believe people are merely sharing their own personal stories, not trying to sell me something. Maybe I’m naive, but I was really surprised when that protocel journey thread ended up with the author sulking because no one wanted the information on how to buy the stuf.
Forget connectintg the dots..I didn’t even know there WERE dots until reading this blog.
Paranoids will always find dots to follow. That’s why they’re called paranoids.
@ thenewme
The claim that all the “natural girls” are selling something has no evidence. For someone who demands evidence, you offer only innuendo. Which is even less than a “testimonial.”
@ABCDEFG
I know! I wanted to believe it too. I soooo wanted to find useful and legitimate complementary/alternative options that might give me a treatment edge, since I’m triple neg and have done all the conventional options (surgery, rads, and chemo). Unfortunately, the more I researched and the longer I read the forums there, the more clear it became that most of them there just “happen” to be sellers/affiliates/distributors/partners of whatever treatment they are praising. The protocel thing is one good example, as are the others I mentioned above. The shills don’t like to be called out for what they are, and are very truth-phobic, which is why I (and others like me) were bullied, harassed, censored, and banned from BCO. They take their games and talking points straight out of certain partisan playbooks.
Case in point: See D above. It’s hardly paranoia to notice distinct patterns and do a bit of link-following and googling.
All paranoids notice “distinct patterns.”
Got direct evidence, thenewme? Or just your impressions?
@D
I’ve mentioned lots of examples here. What evidence are you looking for, exactly?
Asking for evidence? How ironic.
Since you claim most of the “natural girls” are on BCO are selling something, I’m sure you can give direct evidence of thirty who have websites selling products. Otherwise, you would be just be making unfounded claims–something you pretend to despise.
Aren’t skeptics supposed to demand evidence? Or are we supposed to take your word for it?
@D
See my post from 1:02.
Orac has asked us not to “out” BCO posters here, so no – I won’t name 30 (??) alties and identify their commercial sites, although if someone is interested, they can just look up the examples I gave above. Everything that I know about them is easily found via their own bco posts and simple internet searches. What’s your BCO username? I’ll tell you what I’ve found about you if you’re interested.
Oh, and they’re not limited to the “Natural Girls” thread posters, by the way.
So, you have no direct evidence of anyone selling anything, just words we’re supposed to search and then “buy” your suspicions of individual members selling?
Search words are your evidence. Seriously? This is what they call an unfounded conspiracy theory. Suspicions but no evidence–the same thing you claim to be trying to stamp out. Such hypocracy.
As we say around here: Come back when you have some actual evidence to back up your claims.
What part of “Orac has asked us not to out BCO posters here” don’t you understand?
I’m not asking you to “buy” my suspicions. Feel free to think for yourself. Really.
This does bring up an interesting question for Orac, though…. Orac-would it be against your rules/preference for us to post a few quack websites for RI readers that may (or may not) belong to BCO posters? Without naming names, of course. I’d love to get some respectful insolent insight and discussion about some of these woosites.
There is a large difference between demanding evidence that an alleged cancer treatment is effective, and demanding evidence that there are people selling bogus cancer treatments on BCO. It took me a couple of minutes to find some posts touting Protocel on BCO, and Protocel is undoubtedly a bogus treatment. Whether those same people are profiting from the sales of those bogus treatments is really a moot point. Someone is profiting from the fear of vulnerable women who are going through a frightening time. That seems despicable to me.
@Krebiozen, that’s very true. Despicable, indeed.
It seems especially despicable when the profiteer joins a forum and pretends to be “just one of us” in an attempt to gain trust and credibility with her marks.
@sweetbean,
What you wrote about your sister made me smile. One of my dearest friends asked me, post-treatment and pre-tamox, “You ARE going to take it – AREN’T YOU?” She wasn’t wrong to ask, and in the way she did. She’s the best.
@thenewme, I will continue to connect away. Organic fertilizer? Meaning, p**p? I guess that fits.
@thenewme,
I like to think that these people really believe in the stuff they are pushing. The thought that some of them may be cynically marketing something they know is useless and playing with people’s lives is simply horrifying, though the end result is the same.
@Krebiozen,
My parents claim to “really believe” that their chain smoking is harmless to them and others. They’re fooling themselves, pretending to believe it.
Same for these alternative cancer treatment peddlers. For the most part, these aren’t uneducated, illiterate people. I really hate to have become so cynical, but after spending the past 3-1/2 years at BCO researching for myself, I think *some* of them do it knowingly and willfully. You wouldn’t believe the lengths these people will go to promote their crap and justify themselves. Horrifying? Absolutely.
Search Usana and notice the posters name that shows up over and over again. Sickening.
@Jergen, sweetbean, JK and others from BCO:
I have a mission for you guys this weekend. If you were to accept this mission it curtails renting the dvd “The Jonses” and watching it. Afterwards.go through both natural girls threads on the altie forums over two years and see if you can spot who Demi Moore’s character is.
When you see what is going on with this one person, it will really disgust you.
@sweetbean,
We exchanged many pms and I always thought you a smart and rational woman but too trusting. I can understand that. When you don’t have an agenda and are on the up and up, you think everyone else is like this, also, esp. on a cancer education site.
I really want to address your “what’s the harm” commment of women that are beyond treatment. There is a lot of harm. Harm not only to the cancer patient but to the family and friends.
I work long hours on Fri, Sat, and Sun. so I dont have the time nor do I have the energy to go into everything that I want to on BCO. women that have been hurt on the subject of “what’s the harm” Although, this is a very important subject and I do want to cover it.
Orac has posted on the harm that burzynski has caused children and their families.
@Krebiozen – I know Mr Woo “believes” all the advice he helpfully shares with anyone he comes in contact with (and with all the time he spends listening to alternative radio and on alternative websites, there’s a bunch), but I really struggle to believe, sometimes that the people actually making money hand over fist are all believers? Granted, how would you look yourself in the eye each morning in the mirror if you knew you were a fraud, but sometimes the way they spin things and excite people and wind them up before delivering the final pitch… just seems so suspicious to me. Sometimes I want to scream at Mr Woo: “Don’t you realize how much money these people are making by constantly proclaiming this mindset?”
It wouldn’t do any good, of course – he sees it as “everyone has to eat,” not “people make a big deal over all these conspiracies, etc., and then make millions of dollars and laugh all the way to the bank.”
@Sweetbean:
When you ask what’s the harm: I want to turn you attention to children that are suffering from cancer that cannot be cured as Colby Curtins:
http://bumpshack.com/2009/06/19/colby-curtin-dies-of-vascular-cancer-after-watching-movie-%e2%80%98up%e2%80%99-photo/
Colby was in a coma when the powers that be at pixar finally agreed to release the movie” up “to her so she could view it. Her father held her and narriated the movie to her and the rest of the family watched. Colby died a short time after “UP” ended.
http://bumpshack.com/2009/06/19/colby-curtin-dies-of-vascular-cancer-after-watching-movie-%e2%80%98up%e2%80%99-photo/
Comparare this to
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2012/06/05/r-i-p-billie-bainbridge/
One very big elephant in the room that I see is that children that are terminal suffer and parents can either except that they are terminal and make thier last days on earth better or go on a wild goose chase and find those that will claim to cure them.
I am posting something that has come to my attention from a membor of BCO of another member that has been banned:
from Moderators 20 minutes ago
If you are no longer getting the support from the BCO community, or being a respectful, helpful member, then we suggest you find another place that better serves your needs. We are here trying to do our best, provide you a place of comfort, friendship and support and ask nothing of you in return except mutual respect. Truly, if you cannot do that, we don’t think that this is the best place for you.
from SunflowersMA 4 minutes ago
and that’s because I’m not willling to do the WORK that you PAY staff for- you can see ISP’s better than anyone.
PLUS – who is nattygroves, Lisa whatever –
Will circulate your PM to friends on BCO, and see if my comments to you warranted that kind of response.
SO goodbye to you lovely, lovely women – I AM NOT ALLOWED TO POST AS SUNFLOWERS.
You moderators at BCO really really suck
I also want to announce that anybody looking at BCO might want to claim an IRS whistleblowers fee. It’s really easy to figure out and your helping others. My best friend is a tax attorney and is interested in representing any of you.
Black-cat:
Even though you’re trying to do the right thing, consider this — replace “IRS whistleblowers” with “CanCell information” and “tax attorney” with “CanCell proselytizer.” Sound familiar?
Perhaps it’d be more productive to get contact info for the people in charge of BCO and present your concerns over the moderators to them?
On the BCO site, there is now a thread entitled “Heart Medicine Alternatives.” It contains the sentence that I have copy/pasta-ed at the end of this entry. I wonder what this thing about alternative heart medicine is doing on a BC website, and how people taking heart medicines could possibly be influenced by it? I find this scary. There is also some reference to a website about cholesterol from which this quote is derived or taken.
” The researchers found that as little as two ounces of tomato paste, or a pint of tomato juice a day, could be an ‘effective alternative’ to statins.
@Scottynuke:
We have multiple times. The mods have also announced multiple times that the owners are well aware of what’s going on in the altie forums. BCO has no phone number to reach administration. Emails will go unanswered.
Make that we have tried multiiple times and have failed to get the site owners attention.
@blackcat. why would the site owners listen to a bunch of raving chemo loving terrorists?
@Leah – why would the site owners of a Woman’s Breast Cancer support group listen to a bunch of MLMers trying to sell untested, unproven and downright dangerous “alternatives” to proven conventional Cancer treatments?
Leah,
You don’t appear to have noticed that you are in a tiny minority here, and I think I’m safe in saying most of us think you are the one raving.
On the BCO site, there is now a thread entitled “Heart Medicine Alternatives.” It contains the sentence that I have copy/pasta-ed in hte next paragraph.. I wonder what this thing about alternative heart medicine is doing on a BC website, and how people taking heart medicines could possibly be influenced by it? I find this scary. There is also some reference to a website about cholesterol from which this quote is derived or taken.
” The researchers found that as little as two ounces of tomato paste, or a pint of tomato juice a
day, could be an ‘effective alternative’ to statins.
I guess I can skip my heart meds as long as I eat my french fries with extra catsup. 🙂
On the BCO site, there is now a thread entitled “Heart Medicine Alternatives.” It contains the sentence that I have copy/pasta-ed in hte next paragraph.. I wonder what this thing about alternative heart medicine is doing on a BC website, and how people taking heart medicines could possibly be influenced by it? I find this scary. There is also some reference to a website about cholesterol from which this quote is derived or taken.
” The researchers found that as little as two ounces of tomato paste, or a pint of tomato juice a
day, could be an ‘effective alternative’ to statins.
I guess I can skip my heart meds as long as I eat my french fries with extra catsup. 🙂
@lawrence no one is trying sell anything on BCO. Spam gets deleted immediately. blackcat is a drama queen who hates the fact that many of the women who frequent the alternative forum have refused chemo, radiation.Tamoxifen etc. and are doing just fine using non-toxic alternatives.
Anyone can see that conventional cancer treatments are medieval. People don’t want to die from chemo. Hang out in the Stage 4 forum. It’s heartbreaking. These women know that chemo and the rest of the meds they feel forced to take will kill them in the end. The owners of BCO’s site know this too , which is why despite blackcat’s whining, they allow the alternative forum to stay up. Whether blackcat likes it or not, it’s going to get more and more popular. All the Moderators have to do is keep banning her and the rest of the terrorists. It’s about time they put their foot down. Better late than never, I suppose.
@leah – I find it very sad, in today’s age where real Cancer treatments are getting better every day, where women have real alternatives to invasive and body-altering surgeries, where Cancer researchers are providing better outcomes, there are people like you that are pushing women into “no-evidence” alternative medicine that will do nothing but offer false hope and horrible outcomes.
Sure, you might find a very few, very lucky women who roll the dice and not roll snake-eyes, at least initially, but when you push sham treatments like “Black Salve” that does nothing but burn away large sections of a woman’s skin, yet have the gall to call Chemo “medieval” you are among the lowest of the low.
You are not empowering women, you are purposely misleading them – lying to them that there is any evidence at all that these “natural” treatments do a damn thing.
If there was a hell, there would be a special place for people like you…..
It is so strange Leah. Speaking anecdotally, of course, I know several people whose lives have been extended with chemo. One who was diagnosed with stage IV cancer lived for two years after his diagnosis – the cancer was too aggressive to get rid of, but they managed to keep it in check long enough to give him plenty of time to make his peace and keep him comfortable enough to do so. My MIL is a cancer survivor, as are my aunt and two uncles.
None of them died of chemo. Some (i.e., MIL, and friend who died of his cancer) did have advanced stages of cancer when it was discovered.
People with stage IV disease are already on the harder road and know it. Still, many will get through it, and those that don’t often have a much better quality of life than they would if they chose no treatment whatsoever.
Give me a break Leah. I belong on the Stage IV forums because of diagnosis. I am not heart breaking. I am not desperately seeking woo. I have had great success with EBM and plan to stay with it. I do count on some of the Alternative posts for information, connection with an INTERESTING group of women but I am not going to lose my mind (unless it happens with brain mets-which I Don’t have) and believe in magic or unicorns.
“@blackcat. why would the site owners listen to a bunch of raving chemo loving terrorists”
Leah: Are you still fantasizing about killing people, or have you gotten over that?
I am sick of morons like Leah proclaiming that anyone that is Stage IV is dying from their treatment. You dumb B. I’ll try to watch my language but this really pisses me off. Without the protocol I have chosen I would likely be dead by now.
Seems to me Leah that you early stage alti’s are the ones who are frustrated that we Stage IV’s aren’t dying from our treatment as much or as fast as you want us to. My treatment is working, my scans are good. I will enjoy every day I have been allotted on this earth and I won’t drink altered fruit juice or smear my body with caustic substances because some guru convinced me to alter my chakras or stop my anti clockwise cancer cells from spinning because he called on the goddess of bull crap. You probably loved Ms “Active Surveillance” or maybe she is you.
The only way your alti gods can sell the useless crap they do is if you trot out sickening statements like you just did. You are a disgusting piece of humanity. And so is every other piece of vile trash that prey on cancer patients so they can buy a yacht or build a mega mansion in Houston, or just shill for the bastards.
There, I feel better.
Please note that Leah has now admitted that she practices a double standard and expects others to give “respect” she herself won’t give.
Sorry, Leah, but unlike you (remember your announcement on July 8 that “You won’t here [sic] from me again”?) we actually put thought into our conversations and try to mean what we say. You clearly prefer being able to say whatever’s convenient a given moment and forget it as soon as it becomes inconvenient, but we don’t play that game here.
Most of you obviously lack emotional intelligence because you feel you have no control over your health, and you hate those who do. That’s another side effect of chemotherapy, BTW. I feel really sorry for you people. Maybe you all should try therapy instead of using RI as your support group. It’s important to address the real cause of your anger and get those demons out.
The mirror department just rang. Bring all the Shop-Vacs.
It’s nice that the hypocrite who wrote “If it were up to me, oncologists who deliberately over treat patients would receive the death penalty. A lethal injection of chemo is punishment that would certainly go well with the crime” is worried about other people’s anger issues.
It’s nice that the hypocrite who wrote “If it were up to me, oncologists who deliberately over treat patients would receive the death penalty. A lethal injection of chemo is punishment that would certainly go well with the crime” is worried about other people’s anger issues.
It’s nice that the hypocrite who wrote “If it were up to me, oncologists who deliberately over treat patients would receive the death penalty. A lethal injection of chemo is punishment that would certainly go well with the crime” is worried about other people’s anger issues.
PS. Orac I had a glitch that may result in a triple post. Please delete the duplicates & sorry about that
@Leah – I’m sorry – but how does “emotional intelligence” or lack thereof relate to making choices regarding our healthcare?
How is choosing evidence based medicine not a “choice?”
“Feeling you have no control over your health” is a side effect of chemotherapy? Do you have a journal to cite for that? I would think that being in a severe health crisis and working through it would make you feel a bit out of control until you began making decisions, at which point some feeling of control would come back. Being with my MIL and a good friend through their cancer journeys I never saw much despair regarding their lack of choices. They measured all the possibilities, sometimes go second opinions if they believed they were warranted, and moved forward the best way they found. How is that “helpless?”
We need therapy for “demons?” Are you sure you don’t mean an exorcism? Or maybe just some sage rubbing and energy work?
**sage smudging sorry about that – fighting a headache and a sick day….
Redloh – you are right – most of the alties are early stage and I’m sure their “Alternative” treatment doesn’t really do anything. The ones there who are Stage IV because they did not do conventional treatment earlier are the ones I feel sorry for.
@leah
How’s it going, hypocrite? Still spewing out the stupid as usual?
Please, keep going, I like seeing you make an utter fool of yourself.
@Afriend. Bingo! All alties are early stagers who think chemo kills but yet have NEVER been offered chemo.
@leah. Your a pathetic moron. Go mix some baking soda and maple syrup. Maybe it will cure your lousy attitude. It certainly won’t cure cancer!
Nd by the way, the unfortunate ladies on the stage IV forum who die, die from BC not chemo.
@jergen
My sister was one of the unfortunate ones who did not catch her tumor early; she was Stage IV when diagnosed.
Chemo worked for her, until she switched to tamoxifen and something else (I can’t remember what it was atm) pills to give her body a ‘rest’ from conventional chemo. Without the conventional chemo her tumors, which had been reduced to less than 0.5 cm, came roaring back to nearly 4 cm+. We lost her later that year after she could no longer receive chemo due to a low platelet count.
Blackcat, I totally agree with your assessment of me – I am too trusting on BCO, I think. I kind of made the decision to take people at face value, because otherwise I will go nuts. I’m definitely going to get that movie and watch it.
When I was diagnosed, a chiropractor I knew pressured me HEAVILY to not do any conv treatment and go to Mexico for the Gerson Therapy. He told me that I would die an early death from chemo, be mutilated from surgery, have lung damage from radiation, etc. On and on. I felt doomed. And the idea of my body healing itself was SO attractive. I considered alternative treatment for about 18 hours. I called my sister and asked her to help me look up information on Gerson. Later, she told me that was the only time she felt despair, but she didn’t let on at the time. Instead, she treated me with great respect and proceeded to research the Gerson Therapy very thoroughly. The next day, she told me the results, which were (obviously) not favorable, so I chose conventional treatments.
What made the difference for me was how my sister treated me and I try to remember that on BCO when someone asks about going purely alternative. I remember how scared I was and how great natural healing sounded. And I remember how my sister supported me by helping me research and presenting information calmly, rather than flipping out at me, which is really what she wanted to do.
All this is to say that I am sure that there are times when I may seem more supportive about alt choices than I actually am. It’s just that I am trying to treat people with the same respect with which my sister treated me. I’m pretty upfront about the fact that I support alt treatments in an integrative protocol, but not on their own. I’ve also had some friends that had surgery and then went purely alternative and are fine. I’ve also seen some miracles with alternatives and Stage IV clients. But I definitely haven’t seen enough “only alt” success stories to tell people to ditch their conventional treatments.
*sigh* I just want everyone to be OK. This disease sucks.
@Afriend, 630 thousand people die every year of cancer in the US. These aren’t “alties”, sweetie. Only you people believe that chemo,” the cutting edge of orthodox treatment” , nourishes every cell in the body and is helping to win the socalled war on cancer. (LOL)
Project much, Leah? I’m not aware that anyone here believes chemo nourishes anything. That’s not how it works.
Oh, sorry. That’s right — you don’t understand how medicine works.
I’ll have to tell my middle-aged, computer-geek, hockey-playing father of two younger brother that all that chemo when he was a kid is going to kill him. I just wonder why it’s taking so long.
@Leah – and without treatment, how many more people would die?
Go ahead & keep on believing that your “magic substance” is the end-all-be-all, without any evidence at all that it works.
Again, a special place in hell for you dear…..
Another ultimatum question for you, Leah.
When did anyone ever recommend chemotherapy by claiming it “nourishes every cell in the body”?
Standard rules: if you do not answer within three comments, it will be taken as an affirmative admission that you invented the claim yourself, because Protocel can only look good in comparison to imaginary alternatives.
@Leah – do you really believe what you say? Really?
I’m just curious, because if someone else’s life was on the line I would really struggle to assure them that I had something that offered them a 100% cure rate just on the off chance they might have something that didn’t respond.
It seems a lot more honest (even if some don’t find it as comforting) to have someone say, “When we did our best to analyze this as neutrally as possible, we had 40% of people do this well with it, 20% do this well with it, 15% do this well with it, and 25% have no change or get worse.”
Than say, “I have these 35 anecdotes that had absolutely no unbiased review or following and they all say it cures a whole bunch of things, so I know it will cure you.”
That just seems unrealistic when you look at the way the world works.
Granted, this might be my “own” thing – as an eight-year-old girl (at that age you’re still pretty sure there might even be a Santa Claus) I prayed with all my heart that my mommy would get better and come home from the hospital so she could make me fresh cookies and homemade pizza again.
To this day I still remember the scent of her shampoo. She died of lymphoma at the age of 29.
You’re assured if you pray and believe and have the faith of a mustard seed you’d move a mountain. Surely a little girl’s prayer, if prayer worked 100% of the time, would have saved her mother’s life, wouldn’t you think?
And I think I’d believe in some sort of divine being, even now, more than I would believe in an untested bottled liquid by someone that can cure anything…
My online and local nickname is Essa. I am mentioned above so I was told I might want to check this out.
I have been a green entrepreneur for two decades, a writer four decades. I do not hide who I am.
Two and a half years ago I became very ill and lost my memory to the point I could not recall my sister’s number for more than ten seconds, had known it for 20 years. But I kept working via my online businesses, a place to make it through, be useful. One year ago I realized I had breast cancer, a few months later it was in my lymph nodes. If I did not have the memory issues I would have known earlier, but every time I found the mass during self-exams, spring and into summer I believe, I forgot it was there. Now it is all vague to me. But I remember more since I have been using alternative treatments more specific for the immune and cancer than for the memory issues.
I am a real person, no agenda except to deal with this health challenge the best way I have always known, through the power of nature.
I did not go to BCO to find answers on conventional treatments. I went to find support after surgery, not even knowing I would find other alternative thinkers and those questioning what to do. I have learned so much about breast cancer, lymph node involvement, diagnosis, testing, drugs, chemo, radiation, surgery, lymphedema, humor, alternative choices, complementary choices.
My sister said to me years ago, concerning my beliefs, you better hope you never get cancer. That haunted me, and I did hope. Honestly, I was also concerned about my career choices, should I get cancer. Pride and all.
But it is here, face-to-face with cancer. A spiritual and physical and emotional journey. We are all on it. We all choose different paths along it.
I spent most of the last twenty years eating organic foods, using herbal deodorant, using products that were not going to tax my system, drinking RO water with my own minerals added, doing detoxes for liver, heart health, you name it, I tried to live more purely than the world today gives us a chance to do. Nothing is perfectly organic in the real world and I was in it. Still, I live what I believe and offer it genuinely.
On BCO, I am quoting myself here the best I can remember, that if someone needs something that I offer to sell, I will help them find someone to order from who is not going to bring a commission or sale to me. And I do. As it should be. We are there to be sisters and brothers, I would not sell to my family to gain, I would not do so on BCO.
As quoted above, from a bco person…..
“”When you don’t have an agenda and are on the up and up, you think everyone else is like this, also, esp. on a cancer education site.””
That’s me, I am shocked if there are more than a few who sell to gain from BCO, shocked. I am not one of them.
BCO asks for our web site in the profile, I provided it to a blog that makes me happy, where people can read stories and smile. If they go deeper, fine, but it is not that I am sending them to the organic fertilizer I sell or anything else….. someone from BCO mentioned my life’s work way up above. I would never NEVER never EVER have brought it up to you otherwise.
On BCO, if I bring up anything, it is because I am sharing my life, my work like anyone else who is an accountant, a nurse, a beautician. I share my family and pet stories, my fears, my terrors and my spiritual search on BCO.
About this uncalled for attack on breast cancer people who are hoping to live more than the allotted five-years….. meaning the ‘cure’ that conventional oncologists are allowed to declare if we follow chemo and rads. Do you realize that so many in alts have already done the conventional, are ill, have re-occurrence. They are women and men hoping to find a way to further their time in this life and in a good way, with quality of life improved.
I want more, I hope for more. How dare any one of you tear down my hope, how dare you? I am not tearing down your hope, I am allowing you to believe and pursue what you need while I would hold my arm around your shoulder as you need, it is your choice.
No, am not saying no to chemo or radiation. It is just not for me now. I am an adult who always knew this is my decision, no one needed to convince me.
I am trying to live. Sometimes that ideal is difficult to believe in for me, I have hard days, bad dreams, fears. But i also have great days and really want to stay on earth longer.
Compassion would be embraced. I do not feel it here.
MODERATORS HERE::::
The alternative people who have been outed on this thread are still named, and still more being named when the moderator and owner of this blog gave their word that these names and especially their experiences that are personal — and are only to be shared by the person they belong to — would be removed.
Well, I have read, I have shared and I am leaving. Say what you like. I do not need the drama or hurt it could bring if I spent more time on this. Part of my protocol is to chill more often, write happy stories more often, sing more often and listen to the birds at sunrise. Alternative? Conventional? Wouldn’t hurt any of us really.
I hope the best for all of you.
Diane (Essa) Adams
The following comment from cancer surgeon Michael Baum on a UK medical professional site is rather horrible, but contains an important message.
@Essaadams,
Do you or do you not sell treatments, supplements, herbs, and other breast cancer “treatments?” Are you or are you not a multi-level marketer (MLM) who sells anti-aging and “breast health” supplements, immune system enhancers, and BHRT (bioidentical hormone therapy) in relation to breast cancer?
As a MLM’er, do you have financial motivation to sell your products and recruit others to sell for you?
Selling fiction books and skunks is one thing, and I wish you all the best with those. Selling bogus medical treatments to cancer patients is a whole ‘nother ballgame.
Oh, and you can’t really advertise your websites all over the internet, including BCO, and then feign offense when we discuss it here. YOU put it out there.
This has *nothing* to do with tearing down your hope. I have hope too! I’m a breast cancer patient too, hoping for more than 5 years survival. Give me a break!
DianeEssa – your BCO posts state you had an excisional biopsy with positive margins – why did you never have a proper lumpectomy to clear up the margins. Seems like your alternative protocol isn’t working is it? With positive nodes, with extra surgery and chemo, you might be ok by now. Now you are relying on Protocel to help you – good luck with that.
@Diane/Essa: There is only 1 moderator here – Orac. No one else touches posts or comments. And No one else was outed after he asked them not to out BCO people. If people are listed by their BCO names, then that is not “outing” them. Very few posts are moderated here…though Orac won’t put up with sock puppets or MLM’ers….
Diane Essa – if your not trying to sell anything to BCO members, why don’t you delete your website address? That would be the ethical thing to do, don’t ya think?
I’d be more concerned about the medical announcements BCO makes. The usually manipulate the facts to suit their corporate sponsors’ interest.
Who cares if Diane sells organic fertilizer? Her site’s address is buried in her bio. If you have a problem with that, contact BCO, they are the ones who allow members to include their websites’ addresses. That would be the logical thing to do, don’t you think?
@Leah – conspiracy theories again. Please.
DianeEssa’s website address is hardly “buried”. One click on her name and poof! There it is. And, she selling a whole lot more than fertilizer. Thanks for the tip on telling BCO about her MLM businesses. I will do that.
BCO also plays the poor card and solicits “donations” from its members when, as blackcat pointed out, this “non profit” is extremely profitable. That’s just wrong !
I’m not sure what Dr. Weiss does, but I’m sure it isn’t worth $200K+, which is what she’s paid. That money could be better spend to hire at least 2 NDs and 2 MDs to actively participate on the board and help answer members’ serious questions.
@Leah. Isn’t that called switch and bait? Mmmm I think so, but there might be another name for your response.
Am I missing something? I just clicked on Essa’s website and was brought to her blog. I don’t see any products. Honestly, even if I did, I don’t think I would care. A lot of people have home-based, internet businesses that are MLM. My friend sells adorable stuff from a company called Thirty-one. Another one is big into Young Living. Not my thing, but lots of people do really well with it.
I think the problem is when people say that their product will cure your cancer. That’s dangerous. And pushing your product in posts is uncool. But just posting your website on your profile where it says “website?” That seems kosher to me.
@sweatbean – MLMs don’t work, don’t help people succeed & are certainly not a place to be purchasing health products. You should check out the MLMSurvivors website, if you don’t believe me.
@sweetbean,
That’s the thing. I have no problem at all with people making money with home-based internet businesses, even MLM businesses. My issue is with people who sell or promote unproven/disproven *medical* products, treatments, and information, especially when they’re sold with false claims and implications related to cancer treatment, cure, prevention. It’s all about honesty and integrity.
@Diane Essa – Do you sell/promote bioidentical hormone products or other products under the premise that they help prevent or treat cancer?
I don’t care how “buried” a website link is on BCO. The fact is if you’re a danger to real cancer patients like me, I have a problem with you (general “you”).
@followerfrombco (July 21, 4:41 pm)
Yikes!! I saw that! Let me get this straight: a woman with multiple medical problems including breast cancer has a terrible time with herceptin, resulting in “heart damage.” Her cardiologist prescribes Carvedilol and Lisinopril. Afraid of the meds, she goes to BCO asking (insisting?) if she can just eat tomato paste and cayenne pepper, exercise, and de-stress her life instead.
Some of the responses are reasonable, but some of them are just downright scary, both for the original poster and for anyone else who happens across this medical “advice” to ignore the cardiologist and “just eat cayenne pepper and get yourself a blood pressure cuff and monitor yourself…”
O.M.G.
I am starting to think that it might be worth closing this thread and opening another which does not have direct contact with BCO. I think that this might be encouraging THEM. Just sayin’.
@thenewme Yes. Apparently you can build up your heart muscle by meditatiing with a blood pressure cuff. Or something like that.
I feel bad for that woman, because she’s so scared of side effects that she’s willing to risk permanent heart damage, rather than listen to her doctor. It’s frightening that they allow this to go on without a huge disclaimer…
@Lawrence, I don’t know – my friend who has the Thirtyone business does pretty well. It’s just a side thing for her and the products are super cute. I think YoungLiving is overpriced, but I like their deodorant – their natural stuff is the best I’ve found. Like I said, I’m not particularly a fan of MLM’s, but I’ve definitely seen people do well with them without imposing on others.
As for the heart medicine post, at least in the beginning, everyone was encouraging her to take the meds. If there are dietary or CAM strategies that can help, that’s great, but I certainly wouldn’t advise her to not take the medications.
How she would even contemplate not taking the heart medicine is unbelievable. Now this is a woman of limited intelligence who does not like to take any drugs BUT she let her surgeon give her a shot of Botox in the surgery area. Botox can cause heart problems BTW.
Heart medicine of all things! I can’t believe that she is putting down the heart meds and opting for cayenne pepper instead. Just when I think I’ve heard it all.
Herceptin caused her heart problems,so she’s afraid of the side effects from the heart medications. This is exactly how people die from standard treatments–the red pill is for the side effects of blue pill, the blue is for the side effects of the white pills and it just keeps going on and on.
@leah – so I guess you would prefer that she has a heart attack?
@Jergen, because of her age (55+) , I’d prefer she not take Herceptin. There are other options that won’t cause women her age to drop dead of a heart attack. She can also see ND to help prevent side effects, but she seems to want to treat herself. That I don’t agree with.
I would not bring this up but accusations have been made about me. Then the treatments I have chosen for breast and lymph node cancer has been misrepresented too…. thus my name, reputation, business and peace of mind are of issue. So please allow.
thenewme –
—–I do not sell breast cancer treatments, never have. —–Supplements, herbs, ionic minerals for general health, yes, but not products for cancer.
—–I do not sell immune system enhancers but I do mention some I have used and will always share what I experience.
—– You ask, and I present info and offers for cosmetics, skincare, hair care, all to help with mature skin and menopause issues, thus the anti-aging keywords on my site. Fertilizer, auto products, household, you ran the list above.
—–Yes, these are through companies that offer mlm. I do not have anyone under me that I even know of, I just sell products I love and receive commission. I like to keep it simple and I am in reality about profiting through mlm.
Perhaps you are confused because I wrote a novel where the husband was dealing with prostate cancer? But never mentioned that on bco, ever.
Or because at one point when I used bioidentical progesterone cream, I offered it for awhile but not on bco and not at all for over a year, unless I missed something I wanted to pull offline. But never did I offer this for cancer or to avoid cancer. Frankly, I did not know enough about hormones to save my own arse and am still learning the basics. When I know more I will share what I know to help others.
thenewme —
I also do not sell pet skunks. Never have, never will. I rescue them. That is the fun title to the blog about my pets that I would never sell.
The suggestion that I am doing these things reveals the research you give little time to when checking into someone’s life and business. Your accusation started without enough knowledge. Then you continued with a knee-jerk reaction to escalate what could have been done the last time I posted. Be more careful, please, because you are toying with my life here.
I understand how on quick glance you could draw these conclusions. Online I am a medium profile person, when doing a google search for essa adams cancer I drilled into almost 30 pgs and found info about me, comments, essays, Amazon lists on cancer books others wrote. Have been in business a long long time and now I am dealing with cancer so it is part of my life.
About our hope, it’s all good. I embrace yours, and I would not tear you down your treatment choices. Again, I hope all the best for you.
Diane (Essa) Adams
thenewme had written —
“””””@Essaadams,
Do you or do you not sell treatments, supplements, herbs, and other breast cancer “treatments?” Are you or are you not a multi-level marketer (MLM) who sells anti-aging and “breast health” supplements, immune system enhancers, and BHRT (bioidentical hormone therapy) in relation to breast cancer?
As a MLM’er, do you have financial motivation to sell your products and recruit others to sell for you?
Selling fiction books and skunks is one thing, and I wish you all the best with those. Selling bogus medical treatments to cancer patients is a whole ‘nother ballgame.
Oh, and you can’t really advertise your websites all over the internet, including BCO, and then feign offense when we discuss it here. YOU put it out there.
This has *nothing* to do with tearing down your hope. I have hope too! I’m a breast cancer patient too, hoping for more than 5 years survival. Give me a break!
My issue is with people who sell or promote unproven/disproven *medical* products, treatments, and information, especially when they’re sold with false claims and implications related to cancer treatment, cure, prevention. It’s all about honesty and integrity.
@Diane Essa – Do you sell/promote bioidentical hormone products or other products under the premise that they help prevent or treat cancer?
I don’t care how “buried” a website link is on BCO. The fact is if you’re a danger to real cancer patients like me, I have a problem with you (general “you”).”””””
_______________________________
AFriend wrote—-
“”””DianeEssa – your BCO posts state you had an excisional biopsy with positive margins – why did you never have a proper lumpectomy to clear up the margins. Seems like your alternative protocol isn’t working is it? With positive nodes, with extra surgery and chemo, you might be ok by now. Now you are relying on Protocel to help you – good luck with that.”””””
To which I answer….. the surgery was considered excisional because I did not have a biopsy prior, we could tell by mammo and US that it was cancer, I wanted it out………. so the surgeon removed 25% of my right breast and into the side, also 11 lymph nodes. The positive margin was revealed to me 6 weeks after surgery, he had said it was ‘close’ and then I saw the path report, positive. The nodes that are cancer now were found in recent tests and were there from previous surgery, we believe. Bottomline, my well respected surgeon did not know I was multifocal and was not prepared with enough tests prior. My heartbreak. My treatment is my choice, no defenses there. But I can say you are mistaken to think I am taking Protocel though my integrative MD/pathologist suggested it due to the results worldwide. My protocol does not include that or any derivative, I may someday, but not banking on it today.
_____________________
About my website listed on BCO. When I joined and noticed the website spot, I thought, well I love to tell stories so will share those. Ethical. Yes, I am ethical, I was honest upfront and even stated I would not sell to others and I do not, I help them find without earning. So no, I only removed the essanatural blog link from my womens-fiction blog. If bco asks me to remove the web link, I will without shame. The fact is, I would be called out on mentioning anything I know about by someone who does not believe me anyway, so I don’t hide who I am.
_________
Now, unless there are more grand accusations and questions that I must answer or go stir crazy in obsession, I will leave the thread. Thank you for allowing me to address these issues brought up about me. And thank you for a great read on Science Blogs, enjoyed other threads here as well.
Diane (Essa) Adams
@essaadams:
Actually, I don’t know too much about you because your posts were too far out there for me. A quick google search brings this up:
http://www.skillwho.com/users/holistic-guide/mi/saugatuck/essa-adams/991ec960-7dd0-482e-959d-854aa3834f5c/
Category: Health / Fitness
Description
I am a holistic consultant. Free email consultations answering questions and concerns.
I guide in changes which are relevant to the spiritual, emotional and physical challenges. Products and various complementary therapies are suggested that pertain to personal challenges. A nonjudgmental, objective advocate for building a holistic lifestyle which I call synergistic-living.
Relevant Education / Credentials
Intuitive healer with nearly two decades of self-study in holistic health and research of products and modalities. I prefer the noninvasive, most gentle and organic choices for myself and my family so I know how to find what you need.
Years Experience: 16
Flower Essence Practitioner
Category: Health / Fitness
Description
Spiritual healing through flower essences is like self healing with an old and wise friend supporting your progress. Flower remedies are created with water, sun, blossoms to capture the electrical charge of the flowers. Their essence is shared with you when you spray your space. Clients work with me for soul therapy, soul healing, past life therapy, grief healing, transitions in crossing over, emotional support, dream work and life challenges. I also work with your pets. I love to match flower essences to clients and watch them blossom.
Relevant Education / Credentials
Certified through American College of Healthcare Sciences. Individualized studies of select flower essence projects in North America and Australia. Intuitive healer.
Years Experience: 16
View Skill Media
Bowen Therapist
Category: Health / Fitness
Description
Bowen therapeutic technique is a dynamic muscle and connective tissue therapy. Gentle moves on soft tissue stimulates body energy flows and empowers your body to self heal, release toxins, as well as release on a cellular level.
This is not massage, not chiropractic, not acupressure, not directional energy work, not physiotherapy, not trigger-point therapy, not fascia release, not lymphatic release, not emotional release modality. Bowen therapy is holistic.
My theory is that if Bowen therapy can be done with a feather and intention then it would be effective as a distance healing modality as well. I would like to work with clients from a distance with the feather-intention form of Bowen therapy and share your results and experience. Please contact me for details. If you need a Bowen therapist in your area, please search online.
Relevant Education / Credentials
Certified Bowen therapist, National Bowen Therapy Training, Ohio.
Years Experience: 2
If it walks like a quack, quacks like a quack…….
Essaadams,
This is your bio on another website:
Dream Intuitive Guide. Flower essence therapist, ‘Emotional Freedom Technique’ EFT guide. Bowen therapist. Holistic guide. ESSA Books publisher, editor. Author alias Thayne Hudson. Novel written, A Breath Floats By: An Illusion for the Soul. About a woman whose life purpose involves dreamwork. All my work pertains to the miracles and matrix of life, and supports the more and more widely embraced theory that we are created to respond to vibrational techniques and we can believe in miracles because they are so.
Looks like you are quite the little scam artist to me.
I quite like Bowen Therapy, but the miracle bit is totally loony.
And Leah has now admitted by default that she completely made up the claim that chemo is supposed to “nourish every cell in the body” because Protocel can only look good when it’s compared to invented straw men.
@Essaadams,
You post a lot on BCO about your breast cancer self “treatment” with lots of alternative methods and products (supplements, herbs, creams, etc.). You often use science-y terminology and references to pubmed, and post pseudoscientific articles that appear to support your choices.
Is it fair to assume that these are the same products you sell at your site?
@thenewme, is it fair to assume that you use no alternative treatments and you’re just passively waiting for chemo to fail you?
@Leah – are you always this offensive and condescending, or do you only treat fellow patients that way?
Chemo hasn’t failed me. As a matter of fact, it was a stunning success!
Seems like generalized predation. While I haven’t remarked on it before, as my temper here is short, I’ve spent a fair amount of time steering my mother away from miscellaneous alt-swinishness in this regard.
@Narad,
When you mention “generalized predation,” I hope my posts don’t fall under that assessment. In case you’ve misunderstood my position, that isn’t my intent at all!
@Jergen – glad to hear it! It was equally successful for my aunt and my mother-in-law, and, to most of our reckoning, the two years it gave a good friend of mine after his diagnosis (without treatment he had probably less than two months) were a definite gift and we were grateful for them. Nothing is more frustrating than alt-med’s constant insinuation that those who die would still be here “if only” they had followed the Budwig protocol, the all alkaline only diet, etc. etc…
@Narad – I have a shorter temper for PH, I think – can’t stand him in large chunks, but I get tired of seeing the sniping at patients choosing evidence-based treatment. Maybe alt-med advocates do so because they feel sniped at for choosing unproven therapies, but I really think it lies more in how unproven therapies are usually presented in the first place – using fear and manipulation rather than studies and neutral information to explain the options to the patient.
Chemotherapy is not a cure for cancer and it does not extend life. It is the most toxic substances ever deliberately put into the human body. It only increases the toxic load in the cells, which causes the cells to produce even more resistant cancer stem cells, and sorry chemotherapy does not kill cancer stem cells. I’m surprised you people don’t know this.
“It only increases the toxic load in the cells, which causes the cells to produce even more resistant cancer stem cells”
Leah, can you explain, in your own words, how this process occurs? You speak with such authority that clearly you must have a deep understanding of this mechanism.
@leah – So if chemo kills, what should I have done instead? Tell me the alt cure for BC. ..I’m “dying” to hear it.
@MrsWoo – glad that your family is doing well and glad that your friend had the extra time.
@Leah – then explain the results I have seen with family and friends – did they just “get lucky?”
What treatment do you recommend since you are so much more knowledgeable, by what mechanism does it work, and provide the studies that demonstrate its efficacy, please.
Thank you.
And why should we believe any of it, coming from someone who has admitted to making up the straw man “chemo nourishes every cell in the body” because Protocel can only look good next to imaginary alternatives?
“Chemotherapy is not a cure for cancer and it does not extend life.”
I guess my youngest brother is a zombie, then.
@Shay, LOL – maybe I’m a zombie too!
I’m not sure whether it was the “allopathic” slash, burn, or poison (or all of the above) that saved my life, but I sure am grateful to be here!
I shudder to think where I’d be if I had relied on Protocel instead.
I was told that things were grim for me, stage IV breast cancer, mets to liver. Then there was chemo and herceptin. NED for 3 years and counting on many more. Chemo and herceptin extended my life. Unless I’m a member of the living dead too!
Kay, I am happy that you are NED!
Another dimension that I see from the alties is that they seem to believe that the physicians who care for BC patients (probably all patients) LIKE to do the “poison/slash/burn” thing to us. Honestly, I think they’re projecting their own sadism, or perhaps they’ve seen too many old-time B-grade horror movies. They write as though every MD is a reincarnation of Mengele.
Or maybe they are just really stupid people.
I totally agree with the “stupid people” reference. Very stupid!!!
No, I was referring solely to the stirring rhetorical stylings of Leah.
a reincarnation of Mengele
When your crap doesn’t work…and you know it… you really have no other choice than to court customers by demonizing your competition.
Well I am sure I am not a zombie.
BLOG OWNER — will you consider writing on 714X, antineoplastons, or Warburg’s anerobic function in cancer cells. I learned quite bit from this article on Protocel, gave me reason to question more. I would read on the above, as I prefer to know both sides on all options. Thanks.
thenewme — First of all, my self treatment is not just me making the decisions. I am under care of a general practitioner, an oncologist, a holistic chiropractor and an integrative medical doctor/pathologist.
No, the products I sell are not the ones I speak of for my own protocol. In fact, last week I sold my washer and dryer and ordered welllllllll over $1000.00 in alternative treatments, detox and immune system supplements at retail, no money back to me. Protocel was not included. I do not sell the products I ordered to help my cancer situation. Now Protandim, I am a ‘rep’ for the product, but only so I get the better price for myself, I do not sell it…. yet. And I would not on BCO, I would send requests elsewhere, as I have already.
Maybe if I get out of this cancer experience alive or generate a great QOL for years, I will sell all I know about from a special website. An alternative co-op and alternative insurance company would be a beautiful thing. I can dream.
________________
black-cat —— the promotional piece was highly uncalled for. You are attempting to destroy me or something? You cannot. I am real. My beliefs may be different than yours, that’s all right. There is a whole world out there that you don’t understand. I embrace that world to an extent. The problem is you do not know my heart, you think I scam but I only wanted to help others.
But thank you for pointing out a few bios that I have been attempting to remember with my disabled brain for over a year, both how to find them and get in to change them and then to even do it.
Bowen therapy, flower essences, EFT, these are now only with family, friends, pets and animals. I never did much with them, I am a curious believer. Still, on BCO you have scoffed at homeopathy as woo, though this vibrational therapy has been used the world over by hundreds of thousands of medical physicians and practioners. Bowen therapy, flower essences and tapping are vibrational choices upcoming in popularity. It’s a new world.
Intuitive healer, I am embarrassed to read that I wrote that at a time I was getting very ill, confused, no excuse though ……. that was a poor choice of words which I regret and have now changed. I am not a healer, neither prayer, miracles, intuitive or hands on, not at all. The trouble for me is I just know things about people and about their dreams that I don’t try to know, don’t want to know. It has proven useful for those who have been very ill. I don’t do that unless asked, I do not charge, though at one time I tried, but just cannot accept money. The beautiful dreams I have been told, amazing dreams. I regret many things and I regret nothing. It is what it is. Now to find the good.
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AFriend —– Miracles…. those little surprises that show us we are connected to whatever we believe, sometimes they are the big occurrences. I believe in miracles, I love movies about miracles. It’s A Wonderful Life. Matrix. Scifi is full of miracles, if you like that. Then there”s August Rush. Pay It Forward. Alabama’s song, Angels Among Us.
PROTOCEL
Protocel for one. Protocel is a formula originated from a scientist’s belief and prayer that he could be useful to the world in a huge way. Granted, the man who took over for Sheridan, I don’t know about …. I just don’t understand him right now, but the original formula for Protocel is still there for others if they choose carefully. It can work for some, not all.
_________________
Let me be clear, like most alts people, I don’t believe any of the alternative or conventional treatments are a cure.
As with Protocel, I believe the treatments need to be explored on an individual basis, never ever give up. We cannot rest on our treatment laurels.
I don’t believe in stopping what we do for ourselves because we have an NED (no evidence of disease) report. Why wait for cancer to ‘come back’, tests positive and start treating again? We will live longer if we treat this as systemic and continually transition from one choice to another. And in doing so, alternative choices need to be included because we could not always do the conventional.
The way to healing is a shot in the dark for both conventional and alternative choices. We are in the same boat. Some get good news, some are still struggling through after many choices, either way. The boards at BCO are enough proof of that, for both sides.
________________
BCO acquaintances — I am a gentle person, helpful of others, I have a business and I struggle to work. I am on BCO for support and to give support in dealing with breast cancer which I do have… also in lymph nodes. I am real. If you can find the way to accept me, in light of the posts made above and the revealing of me as a person who is ‘different’… thank you, I appreciate your kindness.
____________
BLOG OWNER — thank you for allowing me to speak up…. again and for the last time. Though I am disheartened that my REAL name was allowed in postings way back and I felt the need to step in at all. these references did not need to happen.
BLOG OWNER — As above…. please will you consider writing on 714X, antineoplastons, or Warburg’s anerobic function in cancer cells. I would read these articles, as I have others that question. As many, I prefer to read both sides on all options. We need to question. Thanks.
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blackcat and thenewme — I am here on this hill in a lovely haven to rest and heal. Was a miracle of sorts that I ended up here of all places. I hope you will allow me the dignity and peace to do so on this thread and on the Internet and on BCO. I know you desire to keep other cancer people safe, I am not out to harm or mislead anyone. I simply come from my own belief system.
By the way, you mention the book and author where several chapters were devoted to Protocel, along with chapters on many alternative choices developed by Nobel Prize winners, geniuses, biochemists and physicists. Outsmart Your Cancer by Tanya Harter Pierce. If you have not done so, do yourselves the favor of reading the last chapter…. Concluding Comments. In my opinion, she could have started the book with that outstanding information too.
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Third time is a charm. I am out of here. I am done. I promised myself that after the third attack and response here I would not even look back. Life to live.
Again, my gratitude to the blog owner. Thank you, sincerely.
@essaadams:
what the hell are you smoking? Forget your other business endeavors. The halllucinogenic weed that you are under the influence of can bring big bucks here in northern californa. I will help you move it for a 90/10 cut and no funny business. Whaddya say partner?
essaadams:
Orac has written a great deal on how Otto Warburg would be turning in his grave if he knew how much his work would be misinterpreted by the alties. Perhaps you should go back and read some of those blogs because you clearly don’t understand his what he was all about.
Re:
black-cat —— the promotional piece was highly uncalled for. You are attempting to destroy me or something? You cannot. I am real. My beliefs may be different than yours, that’s all right. There is a whole world out there that you don’t understand. I embrace that world to an extent. The problem is you do not know my heart, you think I scam but I only wanted to help others.
But thank you for pointing out a few bios that I have been attempting to remember with my disabled brain for over a year, both how to find them and get in to change them and then to even do it.
Does this ring a bell?
@essaadams – our lovely esteemed host has written many posts about Dr Burzynski’s ineffective treatment, the fact that he charges his patients outrageous sums for the normal chemotherapy that he prescribes (and refuses to let them take their prescriptions elsewhere). The results of a search on this blog brought up the following:
(for antineoplastons)
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/?s=antineoplastons
You can, of course, use that wonderful search bar for “Warburg” too and come up with another list to read. I couldn’t find anything searching 714X, but it could be there under another name.
I don’t know if you ever can be convinced to seriously consider the difference between anecdotes vs. real studies, etc. Essa. I am glad you have a team working, and I hope the one you call an oncologist is a real, board-certified oncologist and not someone who has a dubious clinic that treats the “whole person” with unproven therapies. Too many people have spent all they have on those things and done nothing to improve their situation. It breaks my heart when I think about it, especially with what I have seen good oncologists do in the past five years or so.
Before those years and the brave, logical people that lived them (a good friend who acted as a surrogate father to me, my aunt, two uncles, and my mother-in-law & father-in-law), I was much more willing to consider alternatives, mostly because I had watched chemotherapy and radiation fail with my mother in 1977, and chemotherapy cause a stroke as a side effect of treatment for my father in 2002. I hadn’t seen much success, etc., so I held them equally useless, and didn’t realize that alternatives are often actually dangerous.
Since then, a lot of research on my part (and the real kind – I got a job in biotech in 2004 and had access to researchers and real journals) led me to realize the kind of research and testing that continues to go into finding a cure for cancer and into understanding it. I developed a bit more faith in the “system” that is there trying to improve human life through science-based medicine. I also learned how to find open clinical trials, etc., to bring up to oncologists (and found out I rarely needed to do so – the oncologists usually were very up-to-date on experimental treatments and their usefulness for the particular cancer being treated).
There is no conspiracy to “suppress the cure” – every company and researcher out there has motivation (for companies mostly financial, for researchers it is often personal, actually – they know someone who has or had cancer and want to improve their chances) to find a cure. If they ever find one that’s really good at keeping cancer at bay, they will probably continue to research anyhow to reduce side effects and increase efficacy. It’s what keeps the “machine” going, so to speak – new drugs…
I’m glad you said that you understood the motivation of most here has been an attempt to try to prevent harm. I hope you believe it. For my part (and I’m sure many others) arguing for science-based medicine is an attempt to prevent harm – both financial harm, possible harm by a dubious substance and harm from delaying evidence-based treatment. There is no other motivation.
I hope, even if you don’t continue to take part in discussions, that you come back and read more. That you consider getting books about the best way to understand the information that is shared regarding treatments, science, evidence, etc. One that someone else recommended that I got and started reading was “Lies, Damned Lies, and Science: How to Sort Through the Noise Around Global Warming, the Latest Health Claims, and Other Scientific Controversies” – it’s on Amazon and the Kindle version is not terribly expensive. I’m planning on outlining the highlights for Mr Woo so he might reconsider how true some of the claims he hears so often really are.
Best wishes to you.
Mrs Woo
@mrs.woo:
You just fell for her BS. She is marketing herself, here and on BCO. This idea that she lost her memory when she is challenged on the validity of what she is promoting and trying to profit off of is hogwash.
Essa wins the biggest award for owning the most scam websites. She has numerology, astrology, dream interpretaion, healing with a feather and good intentions,rife, bowen therapy, flower essanence, and any other mother natures healing quack therapys that she can think of. Essa cllearly owns the corner market of bizarre quack remidies.
She also has a great defense. She cannot remember these websites when challenged on validity of the information.
@MrsWoo:
Out of all that crap she wrote zero in on this;
” me. Protocel was not included. I do not sell the products I ordered to help my cancer situation. Now Protandim, I am a ‘rep’ for the product, but only so I get the better price for myself, I do not sell it…. yet. And I would not on BCO, I would send requests elsewhere, as I have already.
”
This is not a harmless cancer patient posting on BCO
But the question we need to ask is not “are these approaches popular?” but “do these approaches work??”
Homeopathy does not work; we can safely conclude that from the fact that highly motivated homeopaths have been trying to produce evidence that it works for over a century and have come up with nearly nothing.
As for “upcoming approaches”, anyone can speculate “Gee, what if flower essences/tapping/coffee enemas/smoking banana peels was a cure for cancer?” However, the burden of proof is on those who are doing the speculating to show evidence that it is, not on mainstream medicine to show that it isn’t. It would be extraordinary to find a new anti-cancer therapy that actually worked, which is why, in order to believe someone who says they’ve discovered such a thing, we would need extraordinary evidence.
@Black-cat – I didn’t condone anything she is doing – I invited her to keep reading here. I can see her whole post is a polite “really I’m such a wonderful person and I don’t do anything but share my story” defense. I can’t stop her from posting on BCO, or here, but I can hope that if she hangs out here long enough and maybe reads a book about critical thinking she might start thinking critically. It’s unlikely… but Mr Woo’s magical thinking has chinks in its armor and some small areas here and there where he will prefer medicine to alternatives. Maybe getting people back out of the rabbit hole takes as long as it did for them to get down it in the first place.
I provided her a link to the first search she asked for and told her to use the search bar for the others – she’s asking Orac to rewrite posts. I suspect the one I couldn’t find has other names to it and has been probably covered here as well – one of his biggest topics is cancer woo.
I told her I hoped she has a real oncologist. Some people are supposed “cancer doctors” out there that have no training in oncology – the way she describes everything else I’m worried she doesn’t actually have an oncologist, and it’s something she should really be doing.
Everything in my post is a refutation of cancer woo and an encouragement to learn critical thinking and read more here. Nothing condoned what she teaches/shares and/or agreed or disagreed that she is not marketing herself. I don’t know if she is. I also don’t know if continued reading here will ever make things “click’ and make her more skeptical of magic tonics, special energy, etc. I can only hope it does.
I know woo isn’t harmless. I also know there are various reasons people start down that road – even things like my own doubt about medicine because both parents died of cancer. It’s why I told her that I later worked in biotech, found out a lot more, learned about journals (got to read them!), etc., and learned that my bias was wrong, then had the joy of having several people survive their cancers using only evidence-based treatment.
Yes, her post is nothing but a “I am so polite, so wonderful and not being mean like you all; you all are making unfair allegations, blah blah blah.”
I neither agreed or disagreed with that. I merely told her how to find more of Orac’s post, that evidence-based medicine has no reason to “hide” cures, etc., and that she should learn some critical thinking.
I just did it without being confrontational. It probably will make no difference, but I can hope that maybe she’ll at least read all of Orac’s other articles on bogus cancer cures…
I had come across 714X early on in my studies of health scams. It’s another MMS or Protocel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/714-X
I’m sure we’ll hear from the people who sell this garbage any minute now…
I am so embarrassed my country legitimizes this garbage:
Here’s the “scientific data” on 714-X from the scumbags who make it, less than 100 miles from where I’m sitting right now. Warning: there’s an obnoxious “auto-play” video you have to mute or stop if you don’t want to hear lies about 714-X in a charming French-Canadian accent.
http://www.cerbe.com/english/prod_714X.html#donneesscientifiques
Oh brother.
@essaadams, spare me the “poor pity little me” victim routine. It’s a manipulator’s classic response.
Again, it’s not about your emotional, financial, mental, health, career, or educational status! We could have a sob-story contest here to see whose situation is “worse,” but that’s not the point.
It’s about promoting dangerous and reckless medical advice, products, and services to cancer patients. It’s about FACTS and INTEGRITY.
If we really have to consider dramatic and emotional appeals, how about discussing the emotional, health, and financial situations of a hypothetical breast cancer patient, a young mother of three young children who reads your “miraculous” testimonials and ends up self treating her aggressive breast cancer by tapping and using “vibrational therapy” and flower essences? She ends up dying a horrific and painful death after her ever-progressing tumors break through her skin while her children suffer the trauma of watching it all. You say you’re a gentle person whose intention is not to harm or mislead, but I’m telling you that’s EXACTLY what you are doing.
@MrsWoo, your approach may be more likely to sink in. I should probably just stay away and not let this stuff get to me.
@Marc
From the Wiki article you posted:
Funny that the alties always accuse me of being an FDA boogeyman. Believe me, if I was really FDA, our prisons would be FAR more crowded than they are already!
thenewme,
Has 714-X ever up on that other website you frequent? I’m wondering how “popular” it is on the woo Top-10.
Since the FDA banned it, it must be pretty good stuff. And I’m sure it’s available “on the street.” If you can buy crack and meth, you can probably buy this. Their website even instructs you how and where to self-inject it, in a groin artery.
Funny how Essa asks the BLOG OWNER (Orac) to cover three more forms of quackery. Is she expecting ringing endorsements here?
@Marc
Oh yeah, it’s there! There is no woo too strong for BCO!
I’ll give you three guesses about who has posted the most about 714x!
Of course they even have science-y sounding links and articles to bolster their claims about it!
She apparently learned from a “kinesiology test (!!)” that she needs 714-X, Ojibwa tea, bloodroot extract, laetrile, paw paw, etc., for her breast cancer (spread to lymph nodes) self-treatment but complains that it costs $800 for a 21-day treatment and she needs 3+ months.
That didn’t take long: here’s a place in St. Lucia that sells and ships 714-X. Note the price is $599 US for 6.5 millilitres, or approximately one teaspoon.
https://www.somatecltd.com/product_info.php?products_id=32&osCsid=183293b233ae86be9e908a564d493eec
@Marc, that sounds expensive for a tiny amount, but that’s probably *before* somebody homeopathisizes (!) it! Heck, a teaspoon of that stuff could probably cure everybody if they’d just believe it and want it bad enough!!
Maybe that’s why they always recommend lots of alt treatments – to sell to each other in a giant scammy network to be able to afford their own treatments? This particular person also says she’s doing Protocel, UVB IV blood treatments, and a whole host of other heavily marketed woo. Ugh!
@thenewme – I get really angry at people who sell woo, too. Maybe it was the fact I was woke up by a freaked out dog (she’s humongous, but afraid of thunderstorms and uppity yellow tabby cats) at 1:30 a.m.and hadn’t had much sleep yet – the amount of sleep required for clever but catty wasn’t there?
Probably useless no matter how you handle a true-believer…
@MSII – it’s a really common thing, actually, for people who are being debunked to throw out other alternative theories and ask Orac to write them up too – not sure if it’s “misery loves company” or some kind of sour grapes _ “Hey, they totally trashed my favorite magical treatment, can’t wait to read about what they say about this other one?”
Or maybe they’re functionally illiterate and/or believe “there’s no such thing as bad publicity.”
Essaadams said:
I’m trying to understand this. In response to your glowing testimonials on a large breast cancer patient support site, you receive requests for Protandim info or products. You then send these requests “elsewhere.”
You admit you are a rep for Protandim, a scammy MLM product that’s has absolutely no credible evidence for treating ANYTHING (see Dr. Harriet Hall), yet you happily refer these desperate breast cancer patients to one of your MLM co-scammers to buy a bogus product for their potentially life threatening disease?
Please feel free to correct anything I’ve misunderstood here.
@MrsWoo:
Thanks for taking the time to clarify your position and for your well written and thought provoking post. I have been combating the alties on BCO for too long. I have seen too many innocents harmed by scammers on BCO.
For some, the line between scammer and victim are blurred. I have not paid much attention to Essa’s posts on that site because she is so far out there, I did not deem her one of the more dangerous. Believe me, there are some very dangerous people on that site that I question if they ever really had breast cancer. They refuse to talk about any details of having cancer and are talking scared vulnerable women out of treatment. I am helpless to do anything about it.
According to afriend, Essa has had surgery with margins that were not clear and has decided to treat herself. She may end up suffering Chili’s fate. Chilli is an MLMer, too.
Maybe, your soft touch approach will reach her. I sure hope so. It’s certainly worth a try.
You are a good egg, Mrs Woo. If I had a Mr. Woo, I would give him the boot, after I slapped hm around some.
@Black-cat – Orac will usually post when he someone who has been using woo to treat cancer and has been in the news will die. It breaks my heart every time. The big “advantage” that woo has over science/evidence-based medicine is that an oncologist will be very honest with you. They will tell you you have this cancer at this stage with this percentage chance with this therapy, this percentage with this, etc. People hear a percentage of good and they automatically know there is a percentage of failure. Alternative medicine insinuates they can cure everything while doing its best to demonize evidence-based therapies. So often I wish it were illegal for them to do what they do.
Mr Woo is a wonderful guy – one of those “give you the shirt off his back” folks (sometimes literally). I can’t count how much money we’ve spent buying alternative treatments for people when he finds out they’re sick. His favorite for cancer is a $119/month (last we did it) mushroom supplement that is supposed to strengthen the immune system to help it fight the cancer better. I get very angry at what alternative world view does to him – so many nights he lays awake worrying about all of the alternative “real news” newscasts he has found on the internet. I get angry because I’m sure the people proclaiming the end of the world and selling everything to help you survive it are making money hand over fist while they sell speculation as fact to people. There are also regular attempts by Mr Woo to heal me. The longer I’ve been sick, though, the greater the length of time between them.
Will either of us change Essa’s choices? Unlikely. However, the ones watching this and not contributing still can be convinced. I hope maybe one person considered the book I mentioned (planning on outlining it for Mr Woo!) and decides to borrow it or buy it.
I really hope she has a real oncologist working with her and that part of her treatment is science-based, or that she is willing to consider evidence-based medicine quickly if no real improvement is noted. It’s such a waste to have someone lose their life chasing unfounded promises.
Mrs. Woo that was the most touching heart felt hopeful observation Of human behaviour that I have read in a very long time. Thank you so very much!
@Kay Hanson – I’m terribly tender-hearted. Um. You’re welcome, I guess. Wasn’t anything but part of the conversation at hand.
It is easy to understand why alternative medicine is so tempting. How that industry works is what is so maddening. There is a “Bible-believing” husband and wife team that has a company called Daniel Chapter One that treats every disease in the world under the sun and encourages patients to quit their “poisonous allopathic drugs.” When the FTC got involved and ordered them to quit practicing medicine without a license and that their call-in show where they gave advice to people was the equivalent thereof, they did a workaround where callers call in, they they loudly complain that the evil US government will not let them answer callers questions anymore and ask if anyone out there might have advice for the caller, and an “friendly person” calls in and tells the caller every supplement they will need to treat their condition (instead of teh eeevil pharma drugs). They of course also read the mandatory quack miranda here and there, and explain that it is the government’s infringement on their rights of free speech and religion that requires that they do so.
Those are the kinds of people I believe deserve disdain and public discussion. True believers – well most I assume are real true believers, and that they have been misled by the likes of the Daniel Chapter Ones, Mike Adams, etc. They never learned critical thinking skills and/or were followers of a philosophy or religion that made them more susceptible to the type of claims made by alternative practitioners.
Or, as I like to believe, they are just not intelligent.
Meant no disrespect to Mr Woo of course. I’m thinking of the folks who follow Daniel Chapter One and the like.
I wish the woo meisters were prosecuted. The money is so easy and they know that they can get away with murder. Look at how long Robert O Young has been in the biz. He was arrested in Utah and relocated to California and was back in business in no time. He’s not under the radar. There was a big write up about hm in the San Diego paper a few years ago
Most families of victims seem to never realize that they were scammed and the few that do are too embarressed to prosecute. It was my hope that Kim Tinkum’s family pressed charges but sadly they didnt.
Mr woo sounds like a big hearted man.
@Jergen – it is okay (one of his first attempts to cure me was products from DC1). From some of what I’ve read, unlikely, but okay. It would be interesting to one day classify the various “types” of alternate medicine adopters. An article I read about naturopaths said that many of their customers are actually well-educated people. Goodness knows if anti-vaccinationists are any indication, intelligence doesn’t have much to do with it – many assume because of their level of education they are “qualified” to know how to treat themselves better than a doctor even if their education has nothing to do with medicine. Maybe it is being intelligent enough to get an education and arrogant enough to believe the education somehow taught you everything?
DC1 – I really wonder how anyone can assume they are credible though. Part of it is there are a number of people who believe that if someone has a radio show they must have to have some kind of qualifications first and also be restricted, especially in commerce, to only tell the truth. Mr Woo actually believes “if they say it on the radio it has to be true or they wouldn’t be allowed to.” It’s an unfortunate assumption – he doesn’t realize that these are nothing more than long paid promotions.
Mr Woo is humble enough to admit to most that I am more intelligent than he is (I’m not bragging… our running joke is that he married me for tech support). He is not unintelligent though, not really – more trusting and credible and, like so many, not taught critical thinking to any degree. He really believes your word should be your bond and a handshake should seal a deal. Most of the time, he is around people who have similar values, at least, so he doesn’t get taken advantage very often in day-to-day life, at least.
Trusting….makes sense. He sounds like a kind man.
There is a big anti-vaccination movement going on in my neck of the woods. They interviewed a guy on TV who wrote a book on the “horrors” of vaccinations and he provides instructions in the book on how to legally get out of vaccinating your child by claiming its for religious reasons. the parents who are choosing not to vaccinate their kids live in wealthy communities. The thought of losing a child to a preventable disease just blows my mind. I simply cannot understand taking such a risk. It’s that lack of understanding that makes me unable to understand the altie world. It’s very black and white to me.
Someone must be selling a kit — our head RN in immunizations is running into parents (and grandparents, shame on them, they should remember what childhood diseases were like) who are asking for exemptions and repeat the same crap word for word about why they feel they should be allowed to endanger their children.
It’s almost as though someone has provided them with a checklist.
@Jergen – my children do not know what diptheria or whooping cough is. They might vaguely know measles, but are just as likely to not really know either. They’ve probably heard the word “polio” but don’t connect it to a plague that would make many children ill during the summer and leave many with permanent issues afterwards. In my baby book it lists that they suspect I had rubella at one point and that I had chicken pox for sure. I never saw a child with anything but chicken pox in my whole growing up. A lot of parents who are vaccinating children today have never seen a single case of the illness they are vaccinating against, let alone one that has taken a turn for the worse and left someone blind, deaf, paralyzed, or dead. The one illness people still have some fear of is tetanus, mostly because all mothers will say “if you get cut and it might be a dirty implement or if you get a puncture wound, make sure your tetanus shot is updated,” so people know tetanus is to be avoided (or at least most do) though they have no idea what it is (they probably think it’s like rabies or something, I know I did when I was ten – I knew we always had to vaccinate our pets for rabies, so I figured it had to be like that or distemper, which is what my father would say the nocturnal animals we ended up shooting had when they would show up in the middle of the day staggering and walking in circles).
When you get a lot of craziness about vaccines being so dangerous and have no real knowledge of the diseases they are preventing, any caring parent is going to be more worried about the vaccine than the illness. It’s human nature. I was really happy to see a parent group started warning people about the dangers of meningitis and recommending the meningitis vaccine for teens. I had no idea that by the time the symptoms got alarming it could often be too late to save the child. When they offered it to me but admitted it was a bit early (but safe at that age), I said “go ahead, the more needles the better!”
More than arguing with anti-vax nonsense we need to be teaching people about the diseases those vaccines are preventing. We need to publish case histories, patient stories, etc., of the real dangers of these illnesses, the misery of them and the possible harm. Any parent, if they knew that the disease was miserable and the vaccine relatively safe (and safer than the disease) would opt for the disease unless they were struggling with other issues (i.e., a previous child with severe reactions, knowing an autistic child and parents who insisted that it had to be the vaccines and knowing them sell enough to see the coincidence and being doubtful, etc., – they would be a little more hesitant).
A real issue with vaccines today is just lack of awareness. My ex-husband’s current wife finished her BSN and I was so happy to hear they taught her about the illnesses that vaccines have practically eliminated, the possibility of complications, etc. Hopefully she is prepared to help deal with parent questions. However, science based medicine has an obligation at this point to educate parents about the illnesses they have never seen. It is one of the easiest way to encourage continued vaccine uptakes in large enough numbers, and might actually sway some fence-sitters to come down on the evidence-based medicine side.
Strangely, the book I am reading about critical thinking says that nothing is black-and-white!
Maybe living with Mr Woo has helped a bit in understanding how they think. Maybe my own earlier reluctance regarding chemo, etc., for cancer (two bad experiences – one my mother, one my father) and then learning so much about it when I worked in biotech and the realization that it was still very much a numbers game and it didn’t necessarily reflect the effectiveness of the treatment itself (and hearing the researchers talk about improving the comfort of the patient, etc., looking for better, more effective treatments that had fewer side effects… all of it really opened my eyes to the passion there is in medical research).
It is very black and white in a way – but you have to trust the numbers and know what the reality is. In vaccines, a lot of parents do not know the reality of childhood diseases. In cancer, a lot of people know horror stories of chemo and surgery and that gets preyed on by alternative medicine (which is evil of them). The big thing about the… well, “customers” of alternative med is they are human. They are often making decisions with a lack of information and/or from a position of fear. The better we understand that, the better equipped we are to meet them at their level, address their concerns and hopefully help them make rational decisions for the best outcome in their health care.
*would opt for the VACCINE – sorry about that – fighting a headache all afternoon and don’t have a real preview here
New protcel victim on BCO:
“Hi Kat,
After I asked you where to receive the protocel I purchased and started to use two months ago. I like to ask that why I don’t see lysing? By the way I refused to receive any conventional threatment and choose to try alternative ways. So everybody became against me even my GP. I was diognased one year ago and at the follow up (6 months later) ultrasound, mamogram etc. they found out it spreade under my arm. It was at February. I requested bone scan from my GP because as I refused their threatment nobody seems to care my sitution. Now I’m out of Canada and going to return end of September. What should I request from my GP as bloodwork etc.?”
@AFriend: Oh my gosh, that is so very sad…that poor woman. Mislead into woo and now she has mets that she thinks she can treat with a fake medication? Her poor family. Of course, there will never be any documentation of her death as a protocel failure. It’ll be “she started it too late” or “she didn’t take it correctly” or something else. Always the patient’s fault, rather than those who lied to her about conventional therapy risks and benefits vs woo risks (and lack of benefit)
@Mrs Woo- There are MD’s who have seen the limitations of
conventional medicine and are now alternative. It has nothing to do with “intelligence”. Did you go to medical school? Your comments about vaccines are simple-minded- I believe in vaccines but not at the current rate given. There can be synergistic and cumulative effects for certain children- one size does not fit all.
MIDawn – sounds like she didn’t have surgery – how can people be SO f-ing stupid!!!
@Mrs Woo- I am really sorry about your condition- I just read
another of your comments- I am sorry that you were taken in by the unscrupulous alt med. What is your diagnosis? Of course the drugs are palliative and anyone who would tell you to stop taking them should not be listened to.
As for cancer treatment, however, I have seen too many relatives succumb to cancer and die after the horrors of conventional treatment which they endured for months or years.
@ken
[citation needed]
And yes Mike Adams is a nut case but he does know a little about nutrition.
ken,
Vaccines aren’t something to be ‘believed in.’ Their efficacy has proven by actual scientific inquiry, just like gravity, germ theory, and evolution by natural selection. There’s nothing to ‘believe in,’ either you accept the evidence or you choose to ignore it.
As for cancer treatment, I have seen many relatives beat cancer and survive through the wonders of conventional treatment which they endured for months or years.
ken,
Vaccines aren’t something to be ‘believed in.’ Their efficacy has proven by actual scientific inquiry, just like gravity, germ theory, and evolution by natural selection. There’s nothing to ‘believe in,’ either you accept the evidence or you choose to ignore it.
As for cancer treatment, I have seen many relatives beat cancer and survive through the wonders of conventional treatment which they endured for months or years.
Whoops, sorry for the double post O_O
And yes Hitler was a nut case but he did know a little about politics
/Godwin
Dr Gonzalez’s website has a reasonable discussion about treatment-
http://www.dr-gonzalez.com/pursuing_alt_ther.htm
@Adam G name them
ken, I’m not going to list the names of my relatives on this forum.
Do you not believe that there are individuals for whom chemotherapy was wildly successful?
Not for older patients as these relatives were.
@MIDawn @AFriend…That thread is now closed by the request of the supposed nurse that Protocel worked for (or who works for Protocel)…it’s so tragic that there couldn’t be a warning label put up on it . I feel so bad for the poster seeking help after being tricked into a “miracle cure”.
I cannot imagin how that monster looks in the mirror.
ken, i’m not quite understanding what your argument is. You knew some elderly individuals for which chemotherapy was sadly not effective so…what, exactly? What’s your point?
Case in point -friend told about tumor shrinkage everything that Dr. Isaac’s talks about in the above link-always had hope-wound up with a colostomy from cheno-he was being treated for lung cancer-the chemo ate away his digestive tract-at MD Anderson- races to ER after collapsing numerous times -all this for five years. He was over 60. died at 65
@AFriend:
If I am interpreting this correctly, this woman purchased protocel from kat, who has been openly selling this crap on BCO. She is now asking Kat for medical advice for her unteated breast cancer on BCO, who will probably give it to her with no interference from the mods(who seem to cheer alties on who shun conventional treatment). Some things never change.
BCO does not seem to be fulfilling thier mission statement:
http://www.breastcancer.org/about_us/
Also check this out:
All medical information on the Breastcancer.org web site and in our printed materials is reviewed by members of the PAB, which includes over 60 practicing medical professionals from around the world who are leaders in their fields
I wonder if all those medical personel listed know what is going on with the altie boards, after all they are responsible for viewing all medical information on site. Where are these medical professionals?
Here is a comment on Protocel from Dr. Weil-an alt med MD http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/QAA400820/Protocel-A-Bogus-Cancer-Cure.html
Dr Weil wrote about this in 2010-quote “The National Cancer Institute (NCI) performed animal studies of Entelev/Cancell in 1978 and 1980 and found that it had no anti-cancer activity whatsoever. Another series of NCI tests in 1990 and 1991 using human cancer cells did not find sufficient activity to warrant further testing. And beware: the manufacturer of the supplements claims that chemotherapy interferes with their effectiveness”
The moderators should remove the entire protocel thread. She was working her own marketing woo on those fools for months now. So she closes it while letting everyone know she’s opening her own blog, Clever way to build a customer base on a free web site. And the mods looked the other way the whole time.
Ken, you’re being incoherent. You’re leaving everyone to guess at what you actually think from your cryptic, incomplete mutterings. Why don’t you try expressing the arguments you’re trying to get us to accept in syllogism form?
@AFriend – that is heart-breaking. If anyone from a science-based perspective speaks up over there, they’re considered as “unsupportive of the patient’s choice” rather than “concerned she is killing herself,” too.
@Ken – I’m sorry you find me simple-minded. My comment actually suggested those who embrace alt-med are not unintelligent, and used observations made about parents who tend to refuse vaccines as part of the argument that intelligence does not necessarily affect belief in alternative medicine. I have admitted to many of the regulars here that I’m probably nowhere near as intelligent as they are.
I lost my mother to cancer after less than six months of conventional treatment in 1977, and my father to cancer in less than six months of conventional treatment in 2002, so I can relate to losing family members that you love to cancer after they have taken traditional treatment. However, other friends and relatives are cancer survivors with traditional treatment, too. Since oncologists often give odds of survival at the outset of treatment and odds for how long, it can be believed that my parents both probably still fell into statistical probability. That is why alternative treatments sound so wonderful. With no real research, no real blinded, valid studies to demonstrate their effectiveness, a patient really cannot know what chance they have of improvement or survival with an alternative treatment. Instead of being given unbiased study results, patients of alternative providers are given “case studies” (pretty much anecdotes patient by patient) to read. In my own illness journey I realized quickly that rarely does anyone go back to an alternative provider when the treatment fails. They aren’t completely sure it should work in the first place, so they just move to the next alternative treatment to try that one, too. Alternative providers have no record of how many times their treatment fails, what its long-term effects are, its side effects, etc., and often they don’t care, or they call really serious side-effects “herxheimer reactions” and assure patients that it is just their body “expelling the toxins from their system.”
That’s okay for those selling those wonderful “cancer cures” though – they demonize researched treatments as “cut/poison/burn” while offering a “cure” that uses “your body’s own healing ability” for however much they are charging. If pressed for studies, etc., they come back with “we can’t afford studies” and/or “we’re the little guy being repressed by big pharma, but you can trust us because we only want to heal you.”
Ken, you do realize your last post is actually against Protocel – is that because you’re trying to show us alternative providers sometimes don’t recommend all alternative therapies? We’re aware of that.
Actually, I can sort of argue that science-based medicine already knows there are patients that cannot use the current vaccine schedule. Patients with some allergies, some diseases, etc., sometimes cannot take part or even all of the vaccine schedule. It is one of the reasons they try so hard to get everyone who can be immunized, immunized – so we can protect those who cannot be vaccinated by keeping the immunity of those around them high.
Science-based medicine is also honest about things like risks of harm. Anyone honestly arguing vaccine safety will never say that vaccines are perfectly safe, or that a treatment will be perfectly safe, etc. That’s why they actually have side effect profiles for every treatment – because they acknowledge side effects, adverse events, etc.
I think that all of the regular commentators on this board would agree that Mrs. Woo is a highly intelligent woman.
@Redioh:
The brain dead mods only closed her thread after she requested it. It should have been closed when it was obvious that she was selling protocel. She’s claimed one victim that we know of and I find it sickening that this was permitted and encouraged.
I see Vivre just took some time to delete a lot of her self incriminating posts like this one:
(“Usana. If any of you would like to be the Usana liaison for your area, let me know. At the very least… “)
Sometimes when posts are deleted they stay up when you search for them. In this case a usana search will bring up the post on page 3. Vivre has also deleted all the statements that she made about her website being a non profit and all proceedes from her website and usana sales go to women with breast cancer. Interesting.
She has left plenty of posts up where she raves about Usana being the greatest supplements and skin care products in the world.
But she leaves stupid posts up like this one where she is instructing a BCO member not to get her grandchild vaccinated:
(“Kaara-There are doctors who do not vaccinate. You just have to really hunt for them. I know a doc who has NEVER pushed vacs, and none of his patients have ever had any of the diseases these vacs are suppose to prevent. The sheer number of these being pushed on our children, all in the name of profit, is devasting. The rising incidences of autism and childhood allergies is just heartbreaking, and so unnecessary”)
I wonder if she deleted all those posts pertaining to her trolling the newly diagnosed forums for more victims. Lucy has been laying low too.
I doubt they are gone for good. I don’t know of any other website where they can find such easy prey. I hope some of you can carry on showing others (esp. new members) what she is all about. The mods sure as hell arent going to do anythng about it.
Vivre has still been posting the stupid on her website, though:
http://preventcanswers.ning.com/video/door-to-door-vaccinations-mom-to-nurse-get-the-f-ck-out
Vivre loves to talk about and recommend books on BCO:
(“We have had quite a lot of discussions on great books in the past. I have read a pile of great books and I credit reading with getting me on the road to great health. Anti Cancer was one of my favorites too.
A book I loved that was like a bible to me during treatments was “The Wisdom of Menopause” by Dr. Northrup. When she talked about women needing to listen to that inner voice, and it would help us to make the right decision, it really hit home. I realized my inner voice was telling me to say no to drugs, which is why I was having such a visceral reaction to the idea of taking arimidex, my onc’s drug of choice for me. Dr. Northrup even talked about these drugs and said they aren’t right for everyone, and we needed to each decide what felt right for us. When I read that, it was the first step to getting my power back and I got the strength to start to question my doctors.
That book created a monster! I will never look at doctors again the same way. The book is not about cancer, it is about becoming the woman we are meant to be. That is why I loved it so much. Who wants to think of cancer all the time?
Q-What do they call the person who graduates last in his class from med school? A- Doctor”)
All of those books she discusses in great detail can be found right here in her amazon bookstore:
http://astore.amazon.com/prevecansw-20?node=1&page=1
Her real name is not on her website or amazon so I am not outting her.
I think vivre needs to get busy with deleting more posts. IMO, she is the most dangerous enterprenuer on BCO. I see her as a predator that has a cash cow in BCO. This has been going on for years and why the mods are blind to it are beyond me esp. when they have recieved dozens of emails alerting them to this.
Maybe some of these anonymous mods are alties. Makes sense to me. Assign an altie mod to an altie forum?
I was absolutely horrified when I saw the mods joining in the cheering of wornoutmom to contiue seeking alternaive treatment when they clearly saw that her progress from stage 3 to stage 4. I would not be surprised if the mods on that forum are alties. They clearly know nothing about science or medicine.
@black-cat, you are obviously jealous of wornoutmom and angry. AGAIN, please read carefully and get your facts straight. wornoutmom had Insulin Potentiated Therapy and Herceptin. Go back and read her thread and blog. Be happy for her. She is doing great. Dr, Lodi cleaned up the mess conventional medicine left behind. Had she stuck with conventional medicine, she’d be dead because as we all know MOs have no clue what they are doing.
[Apr 28, 2012 01:51 PM, by wornoutmom
“As those who have followed me know I had horrible health care that left me riddled with fear. After being misdiagnoed I still tried surgery with my providers which was a disaster. 3 weeks after surgery my lump returned. I was told it was scar tissue. I had so many mistakes on my case it lead to an 8 page complaint letter of these mistakes. I literally had to take an anti-anxiety medication just to walk through the doors. I can’t go into specifics at this time. I plan to fully do this once the matter is resolved. So fast forward and low and behold that lump was a reoccurance. My lump was in the chest wall which I have since learned from other patients with the same lump there are doctors who refuse to perform sugery without treatment first as it is to hard to get clear margins. This is why I think my biggest mistake given my type of tumor was to have surgery. I spent more than two years on birth control pills with cancer and it only spread to 3A. A few months later I saw the results of my surgery.
After several complaints I finally got a PET scan. I had a reoccuance in the exact same spot which I believe was the “scar tissue”. I had a tumor on my spine, innumerable bone mets, widespread lymph nodes, and in one month with tykerb and tamoxifen it had traveled to my liver. Due to fear I only trusted them to prescribe pills. I arrived at my clinic in Sept 1 and received care until the end of Dec. I was on a scaled down plan due to finances. On Dec 8th I had a follow up PET scan. With a full head of hair and no suffering or effects it revealed that all my lymph nodes were clear, both tumors were gone, the liver was clear, and a significant decrease in my bone mets! NO sufferering,…”]
All probably due to herceptin
@leah – go away
AFriend, I understand your frustration, but perhaps not the best response to Leah.
Leah, I do not and can not believe what the woman wrote. She still had bony mets by her own admission therefore she is not cured. Difficult to tweak out what helped what. You choose to believe it was the ‘alternative’ stuff that has helped her, the rest of us see a lot of claims but no solid proof. The burden still lies on you to prove your claims.
@leah – so, where is the TV spot that wornoutmom was supposed to be filming? The TV spot that was supposed to proclaim her success to the world? By the way, YouTube is not TV.
That is so common – the whole use traditional plus alternative and then when you see improvement you immediately say “hey! That alternative stuff must have done the trick!”
Like Mr Woo when he had MSRA and did antibiotics plus MMS… 😐
That’s a 3 month old post that you’ve used, Leah. How is she doing now? or even in the last month.. .
When wornoutmom reappeared after a long absence the posts were different. She was selling something, no doubt. The ridiculous teases and insistence that she couldn’t talk yet until the grand rollout……of whatever.
Guess the Dr Oz appearance of the miracle cure has been delayed.
As I said if she is on herceptin, I would expect that would be why she is having a response, not from IPT.
@Leah:
What’s the matter stupid, did you run out of material? You just copied and pasted that from this blog post at July 13, 10:20 pm. It’s been asked and answered.
As I said in my response, the first time you posted that stupidity, wornoutmom is getting herceptin and zometa at a legitimate medical facility before she visits Lodi. Anybody with half a brain would deduct that you cannot credit any treatment success to IPT, ozone therapy, vitamin C and hydrogen peroxide. But you don’t have half a brain do you?
IPT is low dose chemo which only targets the cancer cells. (See traditional chemo VS IPT http://www.iptforcancer.com/index.php...)
That’s why wornoutmom and many many others are thriving. The success she is having is realy not unique. IPT has been around for years. Unfortunately affluent stage 4 cancer patients are the only ones who can afford to get treated at the top alternative/integrative clinics. If the cancer has spread, more than one round of treatment is usually needed. The bill could get quite expensive $15-60K. Those who don’t have the money are stuck either trying to treat themselves with alternative do-it-yourself treatments or are forced to do standard chemotherapy and we all know how those stories typically end.
As for vitamin C, naturopatic oncs and integrative doctors typically recommend it. The chemical community is only now considering it useful.
Peer Reviewed Publication Supporting Intravenous Vitamin C for Cancer Patients
Collaboration between Conventional Oncologists and Alternative Medical Practitioners Results in New Direction for Old Methodology
WICHITA, Kan., March 25, 2011 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ — The Riordan Clinic announced today publication in the Journal of Translational Medicine results of a collaboration between oncologists, alternative medicine practitioners, and basic researchers, which proposes a new use of intravenous vitamin C for treatment of cancer.
The paper, available freely online at http://www.translational-medicine.com…, describes the possibility of using intravenous vitamin C to treat inflammation associated with cancer. http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releas...
@blackcat I can certainly understand why you’d be disappointed about wornoutmom’s success with IPT. Maybe I’d be too if I suffered through standard chemotherapy for nothing. BTW IPT is low dose chemo that ONLY targets the cancer cells. Many cancer patients are having success with it. (See standard chemotherapy VS IPT to learn how it works http://www.iptforcancer.com/index.php...)
Unfortunately, the services advanced integrative/alternative cancer clinics offer are not exactly cheap, especially if you are stage 4 and need more than one round, so only those who are well-to-do can afford them.
Wornoutmom is blessed to have her family, friends and community fundraising on her behalf. She is definitely a fighter. My thoughts and prayers are always with her. Most people in her position would have either just tried some alternative do-it-yourself treatment or did standard chemo…and we all know how those stories usually end.
As for intravenous vitamin c, the chemical community is finally waking to the benefits. Maybe one day IPT will offered as well. Too many people are suffering for nothing.
Peer Reviewed Publication Supporting Intravenous Vitamin C for Cancer Patients
Collaboration between Conventional Oncologists and Alternative Medical Practitioners Results in New Direction for Old Methodology
WICHITA, Kan., March 25, 2011 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ — The Riordan Clinic announced today publication in the Journal of Translational Medicine results of a collaboration between oncologists, alternative medicine practitioners, and basic researchers, which proposes a new use of intravenous vitamin C for treatment of cancer.
The paper, available freely online at http://www.translational-medicine.com…, describes the possibility of using intravenous vitamin C to treat inflammation associated with cancer. The rationale is provided that intravenous, but not oral, vitamin C may be capable of addressing issues in cancer patients such as wasting (cachexia), immune suppression, and improving quality of life. Citing 246 references, the paper synthesized existing knowledge regarding the use of intravenous vitamin C for numerous medical conditions and seeks re-evaluation of the place of intravenous vitamin C in the context of conventional oncology practice. http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releas...
Orca, now that you finally posted my first post, you can delete the second one. It’s the same info. I thought the first one got “lost”. Thanks.
ORAC, your thread has turned into a gossiping fishwives frenzy Lol
And so, it will be my last visit to this nuthouse turned into slaughterhouse
“The Best way to handle the Pseudo-Skeptic is to clearly state your case, then ignore them. This drives them nuts when they get no reactions, except from their own brood. A Pseudo-Skeptic that is watched, but not paid any other attention to, often is reduced to a snivelling, immature WHELP, who eventually goes away or places himself in the position where even his own kind tend to ignore him (or her)”
Pseudoskeptics, I am going to let you drag me way way down to your level, but just for one moment 😉
WOOPIE, get a grip, calling me a murderer…, you’ve lost quite a few nuts, bolts and marbles as far as the eye can see
BLACKCAT, calling me ignorant is sooo ignorant of you – your posts are littered with mistakes which testify to your lack of the most basic education: spelling and grammar . Your ‘capabilities’ in that regard are so limited you would not even be accepted in junior high
SORCERESS, you have obviously fallen into your own cauldron, but what you need is a chill pill for your symptoms of Argumentum ad Hominem (abusive and circumstantial):
“The fallacy of attacking the character or circumstances of an individual who is advancing a statement or an argument instead of trying to disprove the truth of the statement or the soundness of the argument. Often the argument is characterized simply as a personal attack.
The personal attack is also often termed an “ad personem argument”: the statement or argument at issue is dropped from consideration or is ignored, and the locutor’s character or circumstances are used to influence opinion.
The fallacy draws its appeal from the technique of “getting personal.” The assumption is that what the locutor is saying is entirely or partially dictated by his character or special circumstances and so should be disregarded.
The “tu quoque” or charging the locutor with “being just like the person” the locutor speaking about, is a narrower variety of this fallacy. In other words, rather than trying to disprove a remark about someone’s character or circumstances, one accuses the locutor of having the same character or circumstances.
Since the circumstantial variety of the ad hominem can be regarded as a special case of the abusive, the distinction between the abusive and the circumstantial is often ignored.
Informal Structure of ad Hominem
Person L says argument A.
Person L’s circumstance or character is not satisfactory.
Argument A is not a good argument.
fal•la•cy (f l -s )
n. pl. fal•la•cies
1. A false notion. misconception
2. A statement or an argument based on a false or invalid inference.
3. Incorrectness of reasoning or belief; erroneousness.
4. The quality of being deceptive.
fallacy [ˈfæləsɪ]
n pl -cies
1. an incorrect or misleading notion or opinion based on inaccurate facts or invalid reasoning
2. unsound or invalid reasoning
3. the tendency to mislead
4. (Philosophy / Logic) Logic an error in reasoning that renders an argument logically invalid
FIELDSPORTS, you obviously suffer from a bad case of Argumentum ad Baculum (fear of force):
“The fallacy committed when one appeals to force or the threat of force to bring about the acceptance of a conclusion.
The ad baculum derives its strength from an appeal to human timidity or fear and is a fallacy when the appeal is not logically related to the claim being made. In other words, the emotion resulting from a threat rather than a pertinent reason is used to cause agreement with the purported conclusion of the argument.
The ad baculum contains implicitly or explicitly a threat. Behind this threat is often the idea that in the end, “Might makes right.” Threats, per se, however, are not fallacies because they involve behavior, not arguments.
The basis of an ad baculum is the story of Giordano Bruno. Bruno (1548-1600) envisioned a multitude of solar systems in limitless space and believed in the astronomical hypothesis of Copernicus. The Church threatened his life unless he changed his views. Bruno refused to be convinced by the ad baculum as so was burned at the stake in 1600).
Since many threats involve emotional responses, they can be much like the ad populum fallacy. The appeal to the fear of not being accepted as part of a group can often be analyzed as either the ad baculum or thead populum.
Non-fallacious examples of the ad baculum: the appeal is not irrelevant when the threat or the force is directly relevant to the conclusion or is, itself, the subject of the argument.
Physical or emotional threats in the nature of directive discourse or commands are not arguments and so are not fallacies”
___
Whereas BLACKCAT, if that were not enough, suffers from Argumentum ad Misericordiam (argument from pity or misery) :
“The fallacy committed when pity or a related emotion such as sympathy or compassion is appealed to for the sake of getting a conclusion accepted.
Hence, assent or dissent to a statement or an argument is sought on the basis of an irrelevant appeal to pity. In other words, pity, or the related emotion is not the subject or the conclusion of the argument.
The informal structure of the ad misericordiam usually is something like this:
Person L argues statement p or argument A.
L deserves pity because of circumstance y.
Circumstance y is irrelevant to p or A.
Statement p is true or argument A is good.
Related emotions include sympathy, love, regard, mercy, condolence, and compassion. Occasionally, an occurrence of a fallacy can be correctly analyzed as either the ad populum or the ad misericordiam fallacy since these fallacies overlap in their appeal.
Non-fallacious uses of the ad misericordiam include arguments where the appeal to pity or a related emotion is the subject of the argument or is a pertinent or germane reason for acceptance of the conclusion.
THENEWME, anytime I read any of your posts, I suffer from overwhelming nausea – what does pharma shills the likes of you recommend for nausea ? That’s all you are a bigpharma shill wishing he/ she was some FDA rep (as a FDA insider myself, I can tell you that you are not one of us).
Trying to make good grades on this site hoping that ORAC will notice you ? You did fail miserably on BCO
SOYABEAN, pardon my saying so, but you appear very gullible drinking at thenewme’s fountain of delusions & hallucinations or is this your way of scoring points by emulating BC/TNM to make it into the pseudoskeptics league, a new vocation perhaps ?
JERGENS & SUSIEQ (AFriend) you are sooo transparent LoL). Can you clap harder, you are not scoring any points here. Plus, I can’t hear you !!
The SCIENCE-TOLOGISTS (known as the quackpots) Index
1. A -5 point starting credit.
2. 1 point for every statement that is widely agreed on to be false.
3. 2 points for every statement that is clearly vacuous.
4. 3 points for every statement that is logically inconsistent.
5. 5 points for each such statement that is adhered to despite careful correction.
6. 5 points for each word in all capital letters (except for those with defective keyboards).
7. 5 points for each mention of “Einstien”, “Hawkins” or “Feynmann”.
8. 10 points for each claim that quantum mechanics is fundamentally misguided (without good evidence).
9. 10 points for pointing out that you have gone to school, as if this were evidence of sanity.
10. 10 points for beginning the description of your theory by saying how long you have been working on it. (10 more for emphasizing that you worked on your own.)
11. 10 points for mailing your theory to someone you don’t know personally and asking them not to tell anyone else about it, for fear that your ideas will be stolen.
12. 10 points for offering prize money to anyone who proves and/or finds any flaws in your theory.
13. 10 points for each new term you invent and use without properly defining it.
14. 10 points for each statement along the lines of “I’m not good at math, but my theory is conceptually right, so all I need is for someone to express it in terms of equations”.
15. 10 points for arguing that a current well-established theory is “only a theory”, as if this were somehow a point against it.
16. 10 points for arguing that while a current well-established theory predicts phenomena correctly, it doesn’t explain “why” they occur, or fails to provide a “mechanism”.
17. 10 points for claiming that your work is on the cutting edge of a “paradigm shift”.
18. 20 points for complaining about this index. (saying that “Einstein” is misspelled in item 8.)
19. 20 points for suggesting that you deserve a Nobel prize.
20. 20 points for each favorable comparison of yourself to Newton
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0508145/
No amount of kindness will stop the nasty nasty BLACKCAT/THENEWME in its tracks – not unlike ‘famous’ shooters, it uses words to shoot people down in the hope of killing spirit and body.
BC/TNM has lost its soul and its main goal is to bring a targeted group of human beings down into its crawling space. It is full of hatred and rage spewing, spitting and vomiting all over the place
I WILL NOT USE KINDNESS ON YOU – YOU DESERVE ETERNAL HELL
The rest of us humans exercise self-control where you have absolutely none. No boundaries whatsoever. A loose cannon. I really hope you were not allowed to bear even one child, as no child deserves to have you as parent.
Go on, the more you post, the more the world can see how much of a vile, poisonous piece of work you are. Hopefully, you get caught BEFORE you go out buying live bullets.
You’re obviously attempting to achieve fame and recognition by posting your venom on the internet, a very weak and feeble attempt for which only the least educated will fall for and support you.
To all the other pseudoskeptics, if I were you, I would totally disassociate from the vultures here and on BCO should you wish to preserve some kind of dignity and a somewhat respectable reputation
If ORAC has any sense at all and is not parading as BC/TNM, he will permanently ban BC/TNM without delay if he wishes to keep his ‘house’ clean and critter free
https://www.google.ca/search?q=critter&start=10&hl=en&sa=N&prmd=imvnsa&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=Yh0VUMqMLYnr6wGqq4HADA&ved=0CGAQsAQ4Cg&biw=1241&bih=584
IPT? Leah, do you actually believe this stuff? There are so many inaccuracies on the page you linked to that I don’t know where to start. It looks like it was written to spund plausible to people who don’t know much about human physiology and biochemistry. Just one example is the claim that cancer cells, “depend on glucose so much that unlike normal cells, they actually make and release their own insulin”. Only a tiny minority of tumors produce insulin (or substances that act like insulin), but even if that were true, if cancer cells make their own insulin so they can greedily steal glucose from normal cells, doesn’t giving IV insulin just help them even more?
To me IPT sounds like a recipe for making all your tumor cells resistant to multiple chemotherapy drugs at once, assuming you don’t suffer brain damage or death from an insulin overdose. There is no evidence that IPT is effective, and the explanations given by practitioners don’t make much sense. Here’s what the American Cancer Society says about IPT. They conclude:
That was my 2 minutes worth way way down there at your level
Now, on with Pseudoskepticism 101 (Con’td)
Pseudoskepticism (cont’d)
“Debate Closed” Mentality
Since Pseudoskeptics have by their nature made up their minds on any question long before the evidence is in, they are not interested in participating in what could become an involved, drawn-out debate. On the contrary, their concern is with preserving their own understanding of how nature works, so discordant evidence has to be disposed of as quickly as possible. When sound evidence to that end is unavailable, anything that sufficiently resembles it will suffice. Pseudoskeptics like to jump to conclusions quickly – when the conclusion is their own, pre-conceived one. Once the pseudoskeptical community has agreed on an “explanation” that is thought to debunk claim X, that explanation then becomes enshrined in pseudoskeptical lore and is repeated ad infinitum and ad nauseam in the pseudoskeptical literature. Subsequent rebuttals are ignored, as is new data that support claims X. Examples are legion.
1) Overreaching and Armchair Quarterbacking
Faced with contradictory or inconclusive evidence, the skeptic will only say that the claim has not been proven at this time, and gives the claimant the benefit of the doubt. The pseudoskeptic will make the (incorrect) counterclaim that the original claim has been disproved by the evidence (and usually follow up with generous amounts of name-calling and other extra-scientific arguments discussed below).
This distinction between simply not accepting a claim and making a counterclaim is important because it shifts the burden of proof. The true skeptic does not have to prove anything, because she is simply unconvinced of the validity of an extraordinary claim.
Pseudoskeptics, on the other hand, making the claim that the extraordinary phenomenon only appears to be extraordinary, and has a conventional explanation, have to bear a burden of proof of their own. Do they? The general answer is no. Most of the professional pseudoskeptics engage in mere ‘armchair quarterbacking’, conducting no research of their own.
2) Confusing Assumptions with Findings
Pseudoskeptics like to claim that the assumptions underlying modern science are empirical facts that science has proved. For example, the foundational assumption of neuroscience, that the functioning of the brain (and, therefore, the mind) is explainable in terms of classical physics as the interaction of neurons, is said to be a scientific fact that is proved by neuroscience, despite the embarrassing and long-standing failure of this assumption to explain the anomaly of consciousness.
In a recent BBC program on homeopathy Walter Stewart (the same one who was part of the Nature team that visited Benveniste in his laboratory in 1988) is quoted on the subject of homeopathic dilutions:
Science has through many, many different experiments shown that when a drug works it’s always through the way the molecule interacts with the body and, so the discovery that there’s no molecules means absolutely there’s no effect.
But science has shown no such thing. That the functioning of biological organisms is reducible to the physical interaction of molecules is not the result of decades of bio-molecular research, it is the assumption underlying this research. The fact that homeopathy confounds that assumption refutes the latter, not the former.
3) If it was true, there is no way that science could have missed it!
This is a variation of the end of science argument – since science already knows everything and does not recognize the unconventional phenomenon, it cannot be real. Besides being based on a mere belief – that science has discovered everything there is to know – this argument ignores the nature of human perception. Even scientists tend to see only what they want to see, and that is how phenomena that we find completely obvious today, such as Wegener’s plate tectonics – look how South America fits into Africa! – went unnoticed for a long time, and were violently opposed when they were finally pointed out. As Arthur C. Clarke put it:
It is really quite amazing by what margins competent but conservative scientists and engineers can miss the mark, when they start with the preconceived idea that what they are investigating is impossible. When this happens, the most well-informed men become blinded by their prejudices and are unable to see what lies directly ahead of them.
True skeptics appreciate that the principal flaw of human perception – seeing what one wants to see – can afflict conventional as well as unconventional scientists. Their opinions are moderated by the humbling realization that today’s scientific orthodoxy began as yesterday’s scientific heresy; as the December 2002 editorial of Scientific American puts it:
All scientific knowledge is provisional. Everything that science “knows”, even the most mundane facts and long-established theories, is subject to re-examination as new information comes in.
4) Assuming False Scientific Authority
Many high-profile pseudoskeptics pass judgement based on scientific expertise they don’t have.
5) Double Standards of Acceptable Proof and Ad-Hoc Hypotheses
The true skeptic will apply her skepticism equally to conventional and unconventional claims, and even to skepticism itself. In particular, the true skeptic recognizes an ad-hoc hypothesis regardless of the source. The pseudoskeptic, on the other hand, reserves her critical facilities for unconventional claims only.
So pseudoskeptics often fail to apply their skepticism to conventional wisdom. But worse yet, when confronted with evidence of unusual phenomena, pseudoskepticism itself will take refuge to outrageously arbitrary ad hoc hypotheses: swamp gas, duck butts and temperature inversions can create the appearance of flying vehicles in the sky, pranksters are able to produce elaborate geometrical designs in crops within seconds, in complete darkness, and without leaving footprints (but somehow changing the microscopic structure of the crops in a manner consistent with microwave heating), and shadows can conspire to make a mesa on Mars look like a face, an illusion that persists under different viewing angles and lighting conditions.
Critics of Alternative and Complementary Medicine (such as self-appointed “quackwatcher” Stephen Barrett) habitually employ this double standard. They will piously denounce alternative medical procedures for not having 100% cure rates, but ignore the fact that the side effects of conventional drugs kill over 100,000 in the US alone each year. They will condescendingly point to a lack of proper (i.e. double-blind) scientific studies supporting certain alternative procedures and simultaneously ignore the fact that many conventional surgical procedures and drug protocols are equally unproven by the same standard. Worse yet, they will hold alternative medicine responsible for every case of malpractice that has ever been committed in its name, but they would not dream of applying the same standard to conventional medical practice.
6) Responding to Claims that were not made aka Demolishing Straw Men
7) Technically Correct Pseudo-Refutation
Pseudoskeptics are fond of arguing that hundreds of respectable scientists believe that a certain idea is bunk, and therefore, it must be. When one points out to them that many scientific breakthroughs were ridiculed and dismissed by the scientific establishment of the time, they retort that not every idea that has been ridiculed or dismissed turned out to be correct.
Correct, but completely irrelevant, because it responds to an argument that was not made. The argument was not that ridicule or dismissal by scientific experts is sufficient grounds for accepting an unorthodox claim, simply that it is insufficient grounds for rejecting it.
The pseudoskeptic’s knee-jerk dismissal of unorthodox claimants as “pseudo-scientists”, “fringe-scientists” and “crackpots” simply carries no evidentiary weight one way or another. In his skeptical zeal to convict Milton of blundering in the realm of logic, Carroll commits a much more elementary error than selective reasoning: He responds to an argument that is not being made. Milton’s argument is not “they laughed at Galileo, therefore every unconventional claimant is right”, it is merely “they laughed at Galileo, therefore unconventional claimants cannot be presumed wrong.”
8) Making criticisms that apply equally to conventional and unconventional research.
Once Pseudoskepticism 101 is fully integrated, the avid pseudoskeptics are asked to join the select Sciencetologists
“PATHOLOGICAL SCIENCE is the process in science in which “people are tricked into false results … by subjective effects, wishful thinking or threshold interactions”. The term was first used by Irving Langmuir, Nobel Prize-winning chemist, during a 1953 colloquium at the Knolls Research Laboratory.
Pseudoskepticism (pathological skepticism) is closed mindedness with deception: it is an irrational prejudice against new ideas which masquerades as proper skepticism. A person under the sway of pathological skepticism will claim to support reason and the scientific worldview while concealing their strongly negative emotional response against any questioning of contemporary accepted knowledge.
THE PRIMARY SYMPTOMS OF PATHOLOGICAL SKEPTICISM ARE THE PRESENCE OF SCORN, SNEERING, AND RIDICULE IN PLACE OF A REASONED DEBATE. IN THEIR ARGUMENTS, PSEUDOSKEPTICS WILL FREELY EMPLOY LOGICAL FALLACIES, RHETORIC AND NUMEROUS DISHONEST STRATEGIES OF PERSUASION WHICH ARE INTENDED MORE TO SWAY AN AUDIENCE RATHER THAN TO EXPOSE TRUTH.
Logical Fallacies are errors in logical arguments which are independent of the truth of the premises. It is a flaw in the structure of an argument as opposed to an error in its premises. Recognizing logical fallacies in practical arguments may be difficult since arguments are often structured using rhetorical patterns that obscure the logical connections between assertions.
Logical fallacies may also exploit the emotions or intellectual or psychological weaknesses of the interlocutors. Psychological ploys such as use of power relationships between proposer and interlocutor, humorous criticism, appeals to patriotism and morality, appeals to ego etc., to establish necessary intermediate (explicit or implicit) premises for an argument. Indeed, logical fallacies very often lay in unstated assumptions or implied premises in arguments that are not always obvious at first glance.
By definition, arguments with logical fallacies are invalid, but they can often be cast in such a way that they fit a valid argument form. The challenge to the interlocutor is, of course, to discover the false premise which makes the argument unsound.
The term pseudoskeptic is most commonly encountered in the form popularized by Marcello Truzzi, where he defined pseudoskeptics as those who take the negative rather than an agnostic position but still call themselves ‘skeptics’. Prior to Truzzi, the term “Pseudo-skepticism” has occasionally been used in 19th and early 20th century philosophy. The term pseudoskepticism was characterized by Truzzi in 1987, in response to skeptic groups who applied the label of “Pseudoscience” to fields which Truzzi thought might be better described as protoscience””
____
“A person who imitates those who habitually doubt, question or suspend judgement on matters generally accepted by the basic use of the denial of facts presented and enhanced by the use of tactics such as:
. insults
. false or non valid data
. outright lies
. willful spread of misinformation and disinformation
. altering true facts to suit their purpose
. and the general belief of a lie being told enough times that it will become the truth.
Pseudo-Skeptics who have beliefs different than other Pseudo-Skeptics will rush to the aid of their brethren, often citing items they consider as true but which are not. They depend heavily upon personal attacks, falsifying data, improperly presenting data, and implying things they later deny implying.
They often segregate into cult-like groups, and each group targets a particular person or thing as their specialty for their attacks. Some PS Cults flock to a person or group and take whatever that person or group says as if it was word of God himself.
Most of all, the Pseudo-Skeptics will not accept the rights of others to believe as they wish or talk on the subjects they wish to speak on. When they are told they are wrong, they immediately blame some believer for beginning the whole mess.
These people live their lives in the Witch-hunter or Spanish Inquisition mentality. They seek out those who believe otherwise to denounce them as frauds and figuratively burn them at the stake.
Most Pseudo-Skeptics are of low mentality or of a singular mentality. They may be experts in one field, but know very little about anything else that pertains to the real world. They often have comprehension problems for anything outside their particular field of expertise.
The male Pseudo-Skeptic is the chest beater of the group. Their methods are easily seen and defended against. They are also often the more immature of the species. The female Pseudo-Skeptic also can be a chest beater (which is fun to watch) but more often the most intelligent of the group. They are also more cunning and better speakers. They are also the most dangerous, for they usually resort to the `Pity the poor girl’ methodology when their attacks are returned. They usually know how to plead for sympathy.
Beware the Pseudo-skeptics – their only intent is to disrupt and belittle.
There is no easy way to beat them, the best is to lead them along so that they publically beat themselves
CONCLUSION:
With the right amount of rope, the Pseudo-Skeptics are more than willing to hang themselves”
@Leah – can you explain why places that give IPT charge so much. If it’s a lower dose wouldn’t it be cheaper? It is obviously a scam – big promises, really big money.
“Most people in her position would have either just tried some alternative do-it-yourself treatment or did standard chemo…and we all know how those stories usually end.”
The same way yours and ours will all end…….some day.
Please provide any verifiable information you have that alternative treatments are any more successful at prolonging life than the numerous and varied AI’s and chemo therapies.
What is your definition of “thriving”?
Oh wait I forgot, you don’t answer questions, you just regurgitate more bile and nonsensical claims with no basis in fact.
@Leah, er, ah, Joy
Can you please answer the questions presented to you?
Since Leah has mentioned intravenous ascorbate (vitamin C) and since ascorbate is a particular interest of mine I thought I would add a few thoughts. There have been some intriguing results using high doses of ascorbate in cancer, mostly IV, but also some equivocal and some negative studies. I would like to see more clinical trials of IV ascorbate in cancer, or even some properly recorded results of IV ascorbate cancer treatments in alternative health clinics as this seems to be a commonly used treatment. Since ascorbate can act as a pro-oxidant at high doses and also is associated with oxalate renal calculi formation and even renal failure, there is a possibility of serious adverse effects.
Digging around the Clinical Trials website there seem to be a lot of incomplete, unpublished or suspended studies looking at ascorbate and cancer, which suggests to me that the results have not been promising. This treatment is unproven, is possibly beneficial at best, and possibly dangerous at worst. The study Leah referred to is, I believe <a href="http://www.translational-medicine.com/content/9/1/25"this one, which concludes:
Unbroken link.
@Krebiozen
Orac has blogged about IV Vitamin C (I’m too lazy to look for it). His conclusion – “a long run for a short slide”.
Militant Agnostic,
Yup, it’s a maybe at best, and certainly not a proven substitute for real medical care.
IV or high dosage vitamin C is a cherished therapy in woo-topia: for cancer, HIV, you name it.
Maud’s (boudiicca) off her antipsychotics again and needs to be 5150ed This is getting really old. I hear that she is now in need of five point restraints and a simple O2 face mask (not hooked up) as she has now graduated to being a biter and a spitter. She is infected with really gross festering contagious cooties and universal precautions have to be taken with her.
Of course we will see her back on the streets in 72 hours. Sad really, that the only options available to her are a revolving door at the county jail or the county psych ward,
I’m 100% confident that should any of you need chemo again, you all will be looking for Dr. Lodi’s number. That’s if you can afford his rates. He and many alternative/integrative doctors are known for extending the lives of Stage 4 patients who have been sent home to die. Allopathic doctors are such losers. How the hell do you give up on your patients at a time when they need you most?????
So as long as MOs keep carelessly poisoning people, alternative/integrative doctors can charge a high price for IPT. While it isn’t used in conventional medicine because medical politics, dictated of course by big pharma’s interests, discourages its use, it’s a very effective, nontoxic approach that more and more integrative doctors are using on their patients. Therefore, it’s all about supply and demand. Over 300 clinics around the world use it. If IPT didn’t work they’d be out of business instead of growing.
By integrating IPT into a protocol that includes a super healthy individualized nutritional regimen to heal the body, some integrative doctors are able to heal up to 60% of their terminally-ill patients. Obviously, this is because the IPT protocol not only kill cancer cells in a sensible fashion, but also detoxifies the body and strengthens immune system, which are things conventional onc s know nothing about.
@Militant Agnostic, you said [“Orac has blogged about IV Vitamin C (I’m too lazy to look for it). His conclusion – “a long run for a short slide”.]
That’s the problem with you people. You’re too damn lazy to look for information on your own and you rely on Orac to do all your thinking for you. I feel so sorry for you–I’m posting out of pity.
@Boudicca thanks for your very informative posts “.Most Pseudo-Skeptics are of low mentality or of a singular mentality. They may be experts in one field, but know very little about anything else that pertains to the real world. They often have comprehension problems for anything outside their particular field of expertise.” I seriously wonder if this is a mental disorder that can be helped.
@leah
Project much?
BTW, thanks for your great example of Dunning -Kreuger.
@leah – I can bet you that most of those clinics are located in countries with little, if any, oversight of the medical industry in their country. The sham clinics pushing these types of “alternative treatments” get an unfortunate pass because of money – money they bring in from unfortunate “medical tourists” that can be used to grease the wheels of the local bureaucracy to look the other way.
If “Big Pharma” actually existed as a world-wide conspiracy, don’t you think they’d have the power to shut these places down? Or better yet, if it is all about the money, why wouldn’t they quickly adopt these “treatments” where they could charge tens, if not thousands of dollars – keep patients alive & still have the ability to treat them (and charge them) for other things down the road.
These types of conspiracy theories aren’t even internally consistent, much less externally…..if it is all about the money, there is no reason in the world for any treatment to be suppressed – because marketing departments are wonderful things & you can make even the mediocre look good (at least for a while).
Unfortunately Leah, in most of the industrialized world, we actually expect, no demand, that our medical treatments have actual tests done and published, and replicated to show their effectiveness. Information is put into the public domain for scrutiny – you do know that most real (and I use that to differentiate between the sham drugs and treatments out there) drugs and treatments that go through clinical trials never even pass Stage 1, right? Even fewer make it through to human testing, and even then, maybe one out of 100 or 1 out of 1000 actually make it to market.
Somehow, every single woo-tastic, flavor of the week, treatment for whatever (Cancer, autism, HIV, etc) seems to have no trouble being released….of course, when you don’t have to actually prove that it works or be held accountable should it not work, it tends to streamline the process.
Again, your conspiracy theories don’t hold water – if there was money to be made, you don’t think these companies would be all over it? But darn, you know, we actually hold them to a standard by which they have to prove the efficacy of their products……something you can’t do with the crap you throw around here.
No system is perfect & they don’t always get it right, but it is sure better than the “free-for-all” that you and your ilk are pushing….
@Leah – I can guarantee you that should I need chemo again I will NEVER see Lodi. The guy is a quack who prays on the emotions of people to steal their money.
Cancer is what ails me…not stupidity.
Ultimatum question time, Boudicca.
If
is the action of a pseduoskeptic, how come we have NOT single out your compatriot Leah for doing exactly that, admitting that she made up the straw man “chemo nourishes every cell in the body” because Protocel can only look good next to imaginary alternatives?
If you do not answer the question within your next three comments, whether on this thread or any other, it will be taken as a positive admission that you never subject alternative medicine and its advocates to the scrutiny and oppobrium you generate for mainstream medicine, and that this constitutes a double standard.
We don’t have to take that approach with most people who comment here, but then, most people who comment here do not dump eighteen screens’ worth of ranting (most of it copy-pasted) into the comment thread in a space somewhat under 75 minutes. You did. This is the consequence.
Obviously? Giving enough insulin to induce hypoglycemia, then giving cytotoxic chemotherapy drugs, “detoxifies the body and strengthens immune system”? That makes no sense at all. It seems to be you and Boudicca who have serious comprehension problems. The more comments you both post here the more concerned I am about your mental health. Seriously.
@Black-cat @1am
I think you’re crossing the line. SBM people tend to avoid talking about the personal details of someone’s life and stick to arguing the facts and data. Whilst I’m “on your side”, this comment for me, suggests you need to step back and re-evaluate your tactics. You’re stooping to ad homenims. (By the way, I’ve read pretty much every comment, so this is saying something. You’ve come close before, but this one goes over it for me)
I can understand the frustration, but you’re just adding fuel to the fire.
As much as I support BlackCats wish to have the alt thread of BCO be subject to a high level of scientific scrutiny, I think that her frustration has lead her to some very scurrilous posts. I think that cooler heads should prevail. Do not rise to the bait. You do not have to, Leah and Boudicca and their ilk have been thoroughly outed.
The same person who wrote this:
“The rest of us humans exercise self-control where you have absolutely none.”
also wrote this:
“I WILL NOT USE KINDNESS ON YOU – YOU DESERVE ETERNAL HELL”
without even noticing the contradiction.
“The rest of us humans exercise self-control where you have absolutely none.”
Boudicca,
y“The fallacy of attacking the character or circumstances of an individual who is advancing a statement or an argument instead of trying to disprove the truth of the statement or the soundness of the argument. Often the argument is characterized simply as a personal attack.
The personal attack is also often termed an “ad personem argument”: the statement or argument at issue is dropped from consideration or is ignored, and the locutor’s character or circumstances are used to influence opinionou wrote the following.
If you are Maud, that is exactly what I found you to do on BCO. In the 6 years I have been a part of BCO, you have been the rudest individual I have encountered.
Maud=rude. I second that. She disrupts every thread she stumbles into. Discussion is no longer possible because of her rants.
It’s pretty clear that BCO will not shut down the alt and comp fora for any humane or sensible reason. But they’ll pay attention to hits in the wallet (Hey, is there a Big BCO Conspiracy?). Are they at risk – other than their credibility – for allowing the quacks/shills to continue to use their forum?
@Jk:
My attorney friend told me that the disclaimer that they put up in the alt forum means nothing in a court of law. Judging by what I told her and by what she saw on the altie boards, she said that families of the “victims” of BCO would win a class action lawsuit.
It really reflects bad on the site when the owner is an MD (who states that she is also an oncologist) , helps herself to a hefty salary from donations, and not only has a forum promoting alternative medicine, but moderators who also promote it and encourage it. Not to mention that the altie forum rules state that they are only for those that use alternative medicine. There are many of us that have saved pm’s from the mods, telling us to stay out of the alternative forum “if we are into conventional treatment only” as this forum is for “women that use alternative treatment only”.
The moderators have also stated numerous times that Dr. Weiss is well aware of what is going on the altie forums.
Dr. Weiss is not fulfulling her website’s mission statement and has a duty to do this. She has created a website that is a haven for MLMers, antivaccers, and health freedom fighters. Any newly diagnosed breast cancer patient is a sitting duck for vivre and her ilk.
Never, that is when I will see Dr. Lodi. Why would anyone think otherwise?
i really have no objection to people taking Vitamin C for a cold, It is a waste of money but if they have the money to waste, it is their choice and it probably won’t harm them. But to treat someone who has Stage IV cancer with Vitamin C is ludicrous, unless you have proof it works. When anyone here asks for proof of the alternative theories presented her they are presented with insults instead of evidence.
I know that if I ever find cancer (and if genetics play a part, there’s an unfortunately very likely chance I will) I will go the oncologist that my MIL & FIL went to – if he feels there is another who can treat me better, I will go to who he recommends. He was incredibly knowledgeable, great at patient care and they both survived and were pleased with the treatment, the attention to every part of their illness, etc.
I don’t need to go looking for silly quacks with nothing to offer but disproven or unproven guesswork…
Already stage IV, no way in hell I’d hand myself over to a naturo quack. I’ve made what peace I can with a shortened life. Right now QOL. Is excellent…….with chemo. Having lost two siblings to neuroblastoma cancers in the 60’s, I know how far we’ve come and understand there is far to go.
I don’t know how I missed this. Dr Weiss from BCO is on CNN, Good Morning America, and Dr. Oz. Where the hell is she on the altie forums and why the hell did she decide to have altie forums?
http://www.breastcancer.org/about_us/team/marisa_weiss.jsp
@flip:
Re: “I think you’re crossing the line. SBM people tend to avoid talking about the personal details of someone’s life and stick to arguing the facts and data. Whilst I’m “on your side”, this comment for me, suggests you need to step back and re-evaluate your tactics. You’re stooping to ad homenims. (By the way, I’ve read pretty much every comment, so this is saying something. You’ve come close before, but this one goes over it for me)”
I did not think anybody would have taken that comment seriously. I know what an ad hominem is and sometimes it delivered on purpose: even on this blog. Have you ever seen comments in response to thingy or augustine?
@Black-cat
Sure have, and I don’t like it being done there either (may or may not have called others out on it, can’t remember). But there’s a difference between harping on about Augie’s lack of logic and talking about someone’s illness.
Or perhaps it’s the fact that I have a mental illness and find the language to be similar to those who wish to stigmatise those issues.
If it was tongue in cheek then my Poe meter is defective. Not knowing your language style it’s hard for me to tell…
It’s true that when Thingy or Augustine start up their blather again, they get some pretty harsh retorts thrown their way. But I don’t think I’ve ever seen any regular throw a retort their way that consists of nothing but variations on “X is insane” and “X is diseased” repeated over and over.
As I’ve said before, the point is not to show “who can hurt each other more?” but to show “who has the facts and logic on their side?” Thingy and Augustine get somewhat different treatment because they’ve demonstrated over and over that they do not have the facts and logic on their side, but insist on hogging a share of the discourse anyways. Even they, though, usually just get an “Ignore the SFB troll” thrown their way; going into a multi-sentence rant about how Thingy has cooties or the like would actually just legitimize the way Thingy likes to argue, with meaningless assertions and infliction of distress.
@flip:
I do sincerely apologize to you. I did not mean to stigmatise mental illness in any way, shape or form. I have worked in emergency medicine for many years and we use this kind of dark humor and sarcasm to blow off steam. We certainly do care and don’t sneer at any illness or disability including mental illness. Patients are treated with the respect and empathy that they deserve.
Thanks for making me aware of how my comments can be taken. I can now see why it’s inappropriate in this setting.
I’ve put up with Leah and Budicca for a long time on BCO and know that they are impossible to reason with. They either avoid questions or change the subject. It is best to ignore them. I think that any fence sitting lurkers reading the comments here would not be persuaded by them to book the next flight to Lodi’s clinic.
@Black-cat
🙂 Thanks – and I was sure it was most likely a misunderstanding. I haven’t gone and read the posts on BCO and for the most part assumed there was context/ramp-up that I was missing.
For lurkers, it helps to have that clarification I’m sure. It’s easy to forget that the internet has no vocal tone or inflection 😉
check this out….a post on BCO from someone who went to a altie doctor.
“I saw a Natropath yesterday. The appointment was not what I expected. He did muscle testing on me, which involves me holding various bottles of supplements he sells to my stomach individually and he pushes down on my outstretched arm. If he was able to push my arm, then he said I needed to buy it and if he wasn’t able to, I didn’t need that supplement. In a few of the tests, he had an assistant stand behind me, touch my back and he tested her arm in the same way. In the end he recommended like 9 different supplements from his clinic costing $125.”
Jergen,
I love applied kinesiology. We are supposed to believe that our bodies have the ability to mysteriously discern what supplement is inside a sealed bottle, and assess whether they requires that supplement, but are unable to communicate this information to our brain without the intervention of a third party pushing down on our arms. The mental gymnastics required to believe such a thing is possible are impressive, even more so when you look at the evidence, which shows unequivocally that it doesn’t work..
Jergen – if it wasn’t from BCO, it’d be almost impossible to believe someone was truly that gullible.
I actually had to read it twice….could not believe what I was reading!
Jergan,
There is also this one that was posted by our BCO friend who was recently diagnosed with a 3rd breast cancer reoccurrence and refused chemo. Of course all the usual suspects cheered her on.
{Today I spoke with another naturalpath. He probed down my spine and said my problems were yeast overgrowth, infections and stomach issues. He feels until I address those issues that I won’t get well. He said to stop taking the iodine as it can cause problems in the intestines. He also said that my body isn’t getting the nutrition I need to support the immune system. He said that my immune system and adrenal glands are exhausted. Also my whole nervous system was off. He had me raised my leg and try to keep him from pushing down on my leg. My leg was so weak. He polked in my stomach or colon. He asked me to raise my leg again. I did, and it had amazing strength. He said my electrial or nervous system switches were turned off and he was tunring them back on. I felt so much stronger afterwards…weird.
hj gave me this diet
This is a yeast free 3 month diet he suggested I go on.
Nothing white! No sugar.
Eat fruit, especially for breakfast and I can only put it in yogurt.
Take H. Acid when eating ANYTHING cooked.
So…I said, doesn’t fruit turn into sugars that the yeast can feed on.
He said if the yeast can’t get the sugars it needs it will feed on our hormones, especially estrogen.
I thought maybe this is why my estrogen count was so high…96%}
@BlackCat
“He said if the yeast can’t get the sugars it needs it will feed on our hormones, especially estrogen.
I thought maybe this is why my estrogen count was so high…96%}”.
That is hysterical. People actually believe this stuff! So, using that “logic” I should just follow that recipe for my 99% ER+ cancer and skip the Tamoxifen.
I was thinking about this CAM dogma recently in terms of structuralism. Humans do seem to like dividing the world into opposites: black/white, male/female, hot/cold, raw/cooked, self-not/self, natural/unnatural etc.. Add a bit of old-fashioned vitalism and I think you have an explanation for the demonization of white sugar (and salt, flour, rice etc.), as it is unnatural, white (highly colored foods are healthy) and devoid of life force. This explains why molasses and honey (which is chemically almost identical to high fructose corn syrup) are thought to be healthy. I even wonder a bit if that same dichotomy explains why black salve is held in such high regard, despite it being a caustic substance that eats away indiscriminately at healthy and cancerous tissue.
Also I don’t quite understand why these people think that any sugar we ingest makes it all the way to the bowel to feed candida there. As far as I know the only sugars that make it that far down the GI tract are the kind that we can’t digest, like inulin, that feed bacteria and cause flatulence, but in CAM land those are prebiotics, which are good for you. A foolish consistency and all that…
Jergan,
The experts on the altie boards will not only tell you not to take tamoxifen but to substitute DIM or IC3 or even BHRT “ which are superior natural treatments”. They care so much about you that they will either sell you the supplements from “their own private stash” (of course they are not making money off of you) or give you an email or phone number of a trustworthy person you can get the magical healing potions from.
@Krebiozen:
I find it mind boggling that alties reason and rationalize in black and white and seem to think that they “think outside of the box”. In the altie world, science based medicine is black and white thinking. I have seen this expressed so many times on the altie forums. What a topsy turvy world they live in.
They believe that black salve can not only differentiate between cancereous and normal tissue but works by “pushing and pulling” the tumors out.
How about the altie theory that cancer is “angry”, as if cancer has emotions. This is the excuse that was used on the women that progressed from stage 1 to stage 4 as to why her cancer did not respond to Camelot Cancer Care’s quack treatments after paying $60.000 cash for said treatments. They don’t except credit cards either. It’s just cash or a cashiers check. Since her cancer is so ticked off, she needs 20 more treatments for another 20 grand.
Remind me – never bring up applied kinesiology while laughing to Mr Woo. Now he’s ruminating on “the fact” that sugar “makes you lose your strength.” He says, “…if you swallow a teaspoon of refined sugar you will lose 30-40% of your tested muscle strength afterwards… isn’t that interesting?”
I think part of the attraction of woo, especially when you are facing cancer or other debilitating and incurable, sometimes fatal illnesses, is the feeling of control it gives you. Even if you are not actually getting any real improvement from the diet or supplements, the feeling of “doing something yourself” increases your feelings of self-empowerment and makes you less stressed and more positive.
(No, I am not recommending wasting all kinds of money and time chasing fantastic medical claims that have no scientific basis)
Mrs. Woo,
I’m sure you’re right. In ethology they call that displacement activity.
Black Cat,
Isn”t that a variation of the idea that negative emotions cause cancer? In Egypt some people (even educated people) believe that if you feel anger, that can make you sick you, but if you envy someone that can make them sick, so if a person sneezes someone may say, “Someone envies you.” Just a little bit of trivia I picked up on my travels. I’m reminded of Barbara Ehrenreich’s take on positive thinking which I find quite refreshing. I think the idea that cancer patients have to be positive at all times is a horrible tyranny. Cancer patients have a right to feel angry, grief-stricken and a host of other ‘negative’ emotions, and I suspect that repressing such feelings does far more harm than expressing them.
It’s strange how obvious typos are after you submit a comment. Please ignore the second “you” in “make you sick you”.
Prior to my cancer diagnosis, I was a pretty happy and positive gal. So that sort of blows a big fat hole in the “negative emotions cause cancer” theory. Although, the alties will tell me I had “repressed anger” that I wasn’t aware of and I should have my chakras (sp) balanced and take X supplement (which can be found on their MLM link). Ya, ok.
@Krebiozen:
Having just enough medical knowledge to be dangerous, I interviewed potential oncologists for my treatment when I was first diagnosed. One of my questions was, Does having a positive attitude effect your outcome. Two out of three that I interviewed said, “Oh yes, definitely”. The third oncologist told me that emotional status has no effect on cancer progression as the two are not linked. Her presentation was a bit rude and abrupt. I was previously warned by my general practioner that she had a horrible bedside manner, but was the most experienced to treat my rare and aggressive cancer.
The other oncologists gave me big cheery bear hugs when I left their office (which I needed at the time) but this one just stared coldly at me from the other side of her big desk.
When I asked the other oncologists my prognosis, they replied that I should not worry about it and that my cancer was curable since I was treated early. The woman with the bad bedside manner informed me that I had the most aggressive and deadliest breast cancer out of them all. She coldly stared at me across her desk and told me my 5 year survival rate was 40% and my 10 year survival rate was 20%. She added that she had an IBC breast cancer patient that was now into her 22nd year cancer free but could not promise me that I would be so lucky. She concluded by telling me that even though my prognosis was grim, that her goal was to cure me.
She outlined her planned treatment protocol, which was the same as the others. I was so shocked by her initial presentation that I though that she might be hanging crepe.
Black crepe is hung at funerals in Mexico, as well at the homes of relatives of the deceased. The term “hanging crepe” is given to physicians that telll their patients that they are incurable and than magically cure the patient of the illness. The patient mouths off the magical healing that the physician bestowed on them and generates more traffic for the said physician.
It’s obvious who I chose to treat me even though all three agreed on the same treatment plan.
I had done enough research to know what my prognosis was prior to having a serious discussion with a couple of oncologists. Im a realist and knew that if I had a doctor who sugar coated anything, they were not for me. Im not exactly looking for a club to the head either, but reality is necessary in my world. I met with two oncologists and approached my appointments with a bit of fear that I was going to receive a less than “real” message. Much to my surprise, they both laid it on the line for me. That allowed me to be open and honest with them as well. Ultimately, I chose my current MO who is great. Oddly enough, my MO, BS, and RO are all women (coincidence)…women who approach my health much like I do – aggressively and honestly. Not one of them told me that a positive attitude was going to help “cure” me (if they did I’m not sure I would have been able to hide my negative facial reaction). However, they each told me that a realistic but positive approach to treatment would help me get through treatment. I agreed with them then and now that I’m done with active treatment, I agree with them more now. I worked throughout treatment with the exception of a week off for a MX. Not easy to do but for me it was vital to keep some sort of a normal life. They each fully supported my decision to continue to work and wished that more of their patients did the same. Not entirely sure how I feel about their wish. It worked for me but we are each different in our ability to tolerate treatment.
The Member Formerly Known as Maud on BCO and Boudicca here, is now posting as “Ruby.”
If unconscious anger or white flour/sugar cause cancer, most of us would have given up the ghost a long time ago. 🙂
@Krebiozen – I love Barbara Ehrenreich! I love her cut-the-crap-and-give-it-to-me-straight attitude, especially with regard to breast cancer.
@JK, Oh no…say it ain’t so! Is Ruby here at RI or at BCO? It’s so very classic. At BCO, almost all of the alties just disappear when they start to be questioned, and then a “new” poster appears soon after to continue their nonsense. I guess inventing new invisible friends is one way to pretend to have more credibility than one deserves.
I went to preventcanswers. Quote number three in their memorable quote thread is from Alfred E. Newman. I love it.
So susieq58 and thenewme are the same person. Good observation.
D
Not.
Sorry hit enter too soon. They are definitely not the same person. They live on different continents.
Or did I rise to a poor attempt to revive a dead topic. If so sorry for my gullibility.
They have both PMed me trying to sell me cancer life insurance.
And no one on the internet can tell who you are. Arguments from blatant assertion are often ignored.
Oh wow, I’m so scared. You ignored me so much you responded.
So what? How can we tell that you are not the insane Marc Stephens? And you are actually frightened by the fact that we don’t have to believe you. Well, that is just pathetic.
thenewme – good to see you – miss you on BCO. BTW – do you and susie sell cancer life insurance? Is there such a thing? Some people are totally loony – must be on drugs.
The name calling just cracks me up 😀
It looks like someone who looks at BCO and thinks “a place to drum up sales for my supplements!!” has finally caught the clue that this is reprehensible and will always be seen as reprehensible by people with functioning consciences.
And since this entrepeneur *doesn’t* have a functioning conscience, instead of saying “gee, maybe I should stop trying to sell my wares here,” they say “okay, I have to make it look like anyone *else* who opposes me is equally guilty of the same thing, so that I still look bad, but not as bad in comparison. So, let me see… I don’t want to make it look like they’re selling drugs and supplements, I want people to come to *me* for those things, so I’ll say that they’re selling, oh, ‘cancer life insurance.’ It doesn’t matter that it’s all lies; I’ll just pretend that I received the offer by PM so that there’s no evidence for anyone to examine one way or the other.
“I just hope no one stops to think how unlikely it is that *I* was supposedly singled out twice by the same person in two guises, pitching something I could only buy once even if it was real. No one else is getting these supposed solicitations from the people I’m accusing; anyone who thinks about it clearly will realize that *I’m* the only one benefitting from these solicitations being made and therefore I have every incentive to claim they were made whether they were or not.”
Ah, the fantasizing…
Ah, the wild speculation…
Ah, the fortune telling…
Isn’t that what you come here to denounce?
Just askin”.
Permanently, though a little more than usual on this thread.
Is anyone else confused?
There’s a difference between “wild speculation” and making educated guesses. We’ve seen plenty of alt-med entrepeneurs who have no qualms about lying if that helps sell their products. We’ve seen plenty of alt-medders who think “attack the source” is the way to deal with potential damage to a reputation (as opposed to, y’know, “don’t do the scummy things that damage your reputation when it’s found out you’ve done them.”) And frankly we’ve seen a ton of it in this thread coming from BCO in pursuit of the people who used to be regulars there. It’s hardly “wild speculation” to guess that your accusations against thenewme are invented from whole cloth; it’s a pretty reasonable deduction from the lack of any sort of evidence for your claims and the lack of internal logic to them.
For the record, to “D” or Maud or Boudicca or Ruby- or Leah or whoever else wants to puzzle over my identity, save yourself the trouble.
I’m thenewme on BCO and thenewme here on RI. It’s really pretty simple. I don’t have the time or inclination to play sockpuppet games. I don’t sell cancer insurance. I don’t work for the FDA or Big Pharma. I don’t wear a tinfoil hat.
Re: “Is anyone else confused?” YES! I’m very confused.
I don’t post on community.breastcancer.org anymore, yet it seems that some of their quacks can’t resist following me here. They must feel pretty threatened. Exposure is never a good thing for charlatans.
I for one am bemused and confused. There was no name-calling. It is not name-calling to say an idea is ridiculous.
I do however now understand why the alties at preventcanswers would quote Alfred E. Newman. Mad magazine just fits in so well with the mindset.
As for cancer insurance, it amazes me that only D was asked to buy it.
It got even more confusing when my reply to Agashem appeared above the comment I was replying to.
@Rose,
LOL, so true! Alfred E Newman is the perfect mascot for preventcanswers! It’s a mad, mad world they inhabit!
In other weird news, I see that the stage IV breast cancer patient with orange- and lemon-sized tumors breaking out through her skin and apparently self treating with Indonesian black salve treatment, is still ignoring those facts on her healingpastures.com “wellness” blog! She’s extolling the benefits of boswellia and ultrasound cancer treatment, but doesn’t even mention her own condition?
Not one to defend that particular person but that Boswellian stuff was posted in 2011. I don’t think she’s updated that website since then.
@Redloh,
Ohmigosh, you’re right! Thank you so much! I stand corrected, and I’m so relieved that she’s not continuing the wooblog, but I’m very concerned that her illness may be the reason. I hope beyond hope that she’s ditched the black salve treatment by now and is under the care of a real doctor.
Ah, poor thenewme. She just couldn’t resist coming back to BCO and sputtering, “quack, quack, quack!”
@D – wrong thread. This thread is about Protocel quackery.
Another day, another quack. I went back to BCO to respond to a thread about a different quack by the name of Judy Seeger and her “Cancer Cleanse Camp.” I was curious since I started getting notices that my BCO post from almost 2 years ago was updated.
You’ll find the relevant RI post here: https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2012/08/14/naturopathic-cancer-treatments-versus-reality/
Thank you for pointing out Dr. Judy to me. I had never heard of her. Sounds great. I just started following her on Facebook.
No problem, D. I sincerely hope you don’t have cancer, but good luck with Judy Seeger anyway!
D was the guy who claimed he hadn’t heard of protocol, either. If orac said that cyanide was bad, D would start looking for a ‘doctor’ to prescribe it for him.
Dude, I did take cyanide in the form of laetrile. Why do you think I’m alive after all these years?
Evidently the real twist to most Agatha Christie murder mysteries is that nobody died. Cyanide being the weapon of choice, the “hidden” plot twist is that the victims lived happily ever after. And was cured of whatever ails them.
(She also had a thing for hemlock and arsenic. When you know, not killing people off with guns or knives)
Oh dear. thenewme has been sent to the woodshed or being the girl who called “Quack!” once to often.
It’s the name-calling that gets you in the end. It’s too simple-minded. The name callers never learn new rhetorical skills. Why is that? Name-calling is just too easy? Lowest level of communication? Crude? Dumb? Nothing substantial to say?
I have yet to observe anything resembling a substantial comment from you, the closest effort being the truly sad attempt at addressing fair use.
Looks like D/Luan/Maud/Ruby had lots of posts deleted on BCO – maybe she’ll now learn not to trash others so much.
“Name calling is just too easy” – you’d know, you’re the expert.
Oh D, you must be referring to my post on BCO about Judy Seeger and her “Cancer Cleanse Camp?”
Yeah, I did call names. I called Judy Seeger a quack! And I also called breastcancerchoices.org and annieappleseedproject.org QUACK organizations. As they say, if it “ducks like a quack…”
Somebody didn’t like my posts and was so juvenile and cowardly that they couldn’t stand seeing evidence-based information about their beloved quacks, so they went and tattled to the mods about me being a bully. Classic.
@aFriend- I think you’re WAY too optimistic, LOL! She hasn’t learned yet. Why start now? She’ll just change her sock name again and invent some more new invisible friends to agree with her conspiracy theories and woo! Did you see the ramblings on the “clinical trials” forum? Oh my!
@ D
Luck.
Or your laetrile was off. Did the vendor give you any guarantee that he was selling you apricot extracts (if I remember correctly where laetrile is coming from) and not just that he found at the bottom of the filter of his coffee brewer? The taste would be the same (yeah I tried – as a kid; hasn’t done it twice).
I’m eating regularly cyanide in the form of apple seeds (apple core? what is that?) OK, only with really ripe golden apples, but I ate tons of them since I’m old enough to chew (twice a day, all year long, for 30+ years). Yet I’m still alive. Maybe it’s only active on amorphic blobs of Bacteria X.
Will Maud/Ruby ever learn? She was awfully defensive when someone called her Maud…not sure why she needs a double identity.
Not a double identity – more like quadrupal or even more
@Jergen, the funny thing is that she and her cronies are forever accusing me of having multiple identities, LOL! They’ve even accused me of being Orac – bwaaahahaha!
Projection at its finest.
Looks like maud/ruby was given the boot once again on BCO. Courtesy of your thread TNM!
Good
Why are you “druggies” so obsessed with the alternative forums and the “alties”? It seems like they are the only forums you frequent on BCO. None of you post on the mainstream forums. What’s up with that? Don’t you have faith in your cut, burn and poison treatments”?
Au contraire, my addled friend. You just dont know where to look.
motheroffoursons/ AFriend are you threatened by Maud/Ruby? Does she make you feel not-so-smart? I’m still laughing at your “Why-do-I-have-to-eat-cancer-fighting foods?’ ignorant thread.
Maud/Ruby is an idiot who can’t control her emotions which is why she gets booted so often.
I post on the mainstream threads all the time. That’s where the smart gals hangout. I go to the altie threads to reinforce my belief that there are in fact ignorant people who think that cancer will just go away if you follow your “intuition” on how to treat it. What a crock.
I also post on the mainstream threads, almost every day. Once again, a reminder, you can have your own opinion but not your own facts.
When all else fails throw out a gratuitous insult.
You go to the altie threads because you and thenewme are like the old ladies in the back of the church who can’t stop clucking about the scandalous outfits the young girls wear! You’re just busybodies 🙂
@d
Case in point, when all else fails and you have no facts to back you up, throw out a half-witted insult.
Actually, I feel sorry for you alties. Sorry because you actually believe in cures with no proof. You believe that if someone says that rubbing two rocks together will cure your cancer it must be true because it’s “natural”. You believe in conspiracies. You believe that cancer can be cured with diet and happy thoughts. You believe in recruiting unsuspecting naive newbies into your way of thinking. You believe in coddling former heroin addicts who have self diagnosed themselves with Parkinson’s disease, breast cancer, and AIDS (just read that one again today). Self diagnosing AIDS before AIDS even existed And, self diagnosing being cured from AIDS. I feel sorry for you because you are gullible and delusional.
Jergen, I strongly suggest that before you go running off your mouth judging others, you should concentrate on your own health. That’s what smart girls do.
Have you noticed that the “alties” don’t really post on the mainstream threads? That’s because we don’t care to read about the shopping list of drugs and the dangerous side effects those women constantly complain about.
The mainstream forum is depressing. Understandibly, most of those women are just miserable. I’d say that more than 80% of them are hooked on anti-depressants. When they get tired of abusing their bodies, they find the alternative forum on their own. Unlike you and the rest of your girl gang, the alternative minded women have class. Anybody can see that.
The fact that some you people make it your business to go around pushing drugs on unsuspecting new members is disgusting. Just remember that what goes around comes around.
No,Leah, the reason alties don’t post on mainstream threads is because they get tired of getting their asses handed to them on a platter.
What you and your ilk peddle is 21st century snake-oil, pure and simple. And when you are unable to provide any corroboration to your claims (80% on anti-depressants? Citation needed) that would pass muster with anyone with an ounce of sense, you start getting all threaty.
@leah – the more you post, the more vile you become. Knowing a number of Breast Cancer survivors, each of them worked closely with their doctor to find the best possible course of treatment, which varied from individual to individual – all of which followed conventional therapies, and each and every one of these brave women is alive today – happy, healthy, spending time with their families, because they didn’t delude themselves into thinking there was an “easy-button” cure.
“Don’t worry, be happy” is not a treatment for Cancer.
Altie women have class? Now that’s funny! They have so much class they keep getting booted for inappropriate posts attacking others who dare to question altie methods. So 80% on the mainstream threads are on anti-depressants? Ahhhh, I don’t think so. There ya go being delusional again. It’s that kind of thinking that makes me feel sorry for you.
Yes, the mainstream threads are sooooo sad, all this desperation, all the needless pain, coping with horrible side effects. I can’t even bear to read the topics. Coping with this nightmare, coping with that nightmare… I feel so sorry for them. It’s not their fault they weren’t taught to think for themselves.
My post on 9/19 @9:19 am was in response to D’s post at 9:20, not anticipating it. Weird.
More than 80% hooked on antidepressants? [citation needed}
@Leah, @D
Instead of blathering on, why don’t you post some actual scientific data people can review? That’s the only way you’ll change anyone’s mind…
Thinking for myself, I know that I’d be more inclined to try an alternative if I could actually read about the efficacy/risks. But you know, that’s just me…
@d
Ironic you say that, since you are just spouting the same thinks that quack trolls usually do.
@flip
Why are you under the impression I want to change anyone’s mind?
People who post here actually talk about a conspiracy of sock puppets. 🙂
Do you see them giving any evidence for their conspiracies?
Read my bud Michael’s article in Scientific American.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-people-believe-conspiracy-theoies
There’s more than a little difference between suspecting a particular name of being a sockpuppet of a known user (the evidence is usually things like a strong similarity in writing style and repetition of signature phrases) and positing global conspiracies like many quacks and their supporters do.
And if you’re not posting arguments to change anyone’s mind, what’s the point? That’s pretty much an announcement that you’re just trolling for the lulz.
@bronzedog
So you have no evidence of sock puppets? Just suspicions. Hmmm. What does that sound like. Wait. Wait, don’t tell me. A conspiracy theory.
And I’m here for the same reason you are.
I’m here as a sceptic, my dear… To explore presumptive conclusions and paranoia posing as the truth.
@D
A conspiracy, by definition, involves more than one person. The actions of one person, even with multiple identities, are not a conspiracy.. You can have no conspiracy theory without a conspiracy.
Suspecting something plausible isn’t even similar to building up massive edifices out of moonbeams and rainbows, then insisting that they’re absolute fact.
@rose
So the sockpuppet is just a graden-variety, wild-ass theory but not a conspiracy theory. Okay, I’ll buy that. You guys posit wild-ass unproven theories.
Wow. You’ve jumped to a lot of baseless conclusions and seem to be in denial about the state of public knowledge about trollish behavior.
1. I am not currently asserting with confidence that you are a sock puppet. I don’t know enough of your history or of the troll you are accused of being to make that determination at this time.
2. Sock puppetry is a common phenomenon on the internet, and in most places it’s easy to perform since a troll can simply type in a new name or create a new account for free. There is nothing inherently extraordinary about claiming that someone is a sock puppet/puppeteer. It’s an ordinary phenomenon, so the amount of evidence necessary to consider an accusation likely to be true tends to be fairly low.
3. Sock puppetry is not a conspiracy. A conspiracy requires multiple people working together in secret. A sock puppeteer is one person pretending to be multiple people, most often to avoid a bad reputation following from previous identities or to create an argumentum ad populum by forming an illusory consensus.
4. “Conspiracy theory,” in this blog’s context, is a phrase typically understood to mean large conspiracies, involving governments, corporations, influential people, and such working together in secret for some common, typically sinister goal. Large conspiracies would be harder to keep secret because more members means more potential leaks. Those who come up with these theories generally do not take logistical implausibilities, human nature, or the nature of information into account. These kinds of conspiracy theories are inherently extraordinary claims, and thus require extraordinary evidence to be considered likely to be true. Sock puppetry does not meet the criteria, being common, easy troll behavior.
Anything in there you’d care to dispute?
Unfortunately for you, your essentially content-free comments do nothing of the sort. Bronze Dog is correct: it’s just trolling, and not very good trolling at that.
Need to keep defining the terms in order to make your case? Heard the term, syllogism?
If that fails you can always go back to psychological reductionism?
This is really too easy for me. Could you send some of the smarter kids out?
Funny, D. I give common definitions of the terms as they’re understood by the community at large and you pretend I’m manipulating the language. Doesn’t help that your behavior suggests you’re playing dumb/naive about the nature, ease, and commonality of sock puppetry to avoid the core point behind what I said.
If I’m so woefully misinformed about my native language, perhaps you’d like to recommend a resource for the definitions?
“Why are you “druggies” so obsessed with the alternative forums and the “alties”? ”
That is a puzzle. It’s like what happens when I’m playing 3-card monte – skeptics keep coming up to claim that the kindly guy running the game is _cheating_, instead of just letting me play the game in peace. The other day, I nearly managed to purchase the Brooklyn bridge, and the damned skeptics _called the cops_ (if you can imagine such effrontery!), and ruined my chance for prosperity. If you have the same problem with skeptics on the alternative medicine forums, you have my deepest sympathy.
Should an altie ever have the misfortune of being seriously iinjured in any kind of accident, I wonder I’d they would refuse transport by the ambulance with those drug pushing EMT’s, therby avoiding the drug pushing ER personnel, and wait for the ND, witch doctor, reiki nitwit, whatever, to arrive and realign their chakra’s and dose them with herbs and vitamins………while exhorting them to keep a positive attitude for maximum healing effect? Broken bones and internal injuries not withstanding.
Just saying.
Just took a brief look at D’s link:
It surprised me a little that he used very similar language to my “definition comment” earlier, including the parenthetical “usually sinister” line. Note that it says people or organizations for the conspirators. There’s no room in the cited definition for a “conspiracy” of one person working alone. Sock puppetry is usually practiced by one person working alone.
As for disconfirming evidence, I can name something that would reasonably falsify the sock puppet hypothesis: The discovery that different alleged identities have different IP addresses. For the sake of disclosure, I could posit the ad hoc hypothesis that the puppeteer is taking the time and effort to switch between proxy servers or something, but what would be the point in performing that rationalization, and why would someone like D go through the extra trouble? What alleged comfort would it provide me if I attempted that rationalization? If D isn’t a sock puppet, it’s not going to rock my world. I don’t have any deep emotional investment in the sock puppet hypothesis. If it’s false, it just means the existence of one more troll with internet access, and I already have confidence that there are lots and lots of trolls out there. One more is just a drop in the ocean.
The definition also mentions powerful people or organizations. I have no reason to believe D is “powerful.” If D actually read that page, it suggests a gross overestimation of his or her importance and falsely assumes we share in that delusion. (More likely, D didn’t bother to read.) There’s also no great power being wielded by sock puppetry. Anyone with internet access and basic computer literacy can do it. This isn’t 133t haX0r stuff on par with UFO coverups or 9/11 being an inside job. It’s a childish prank to annoy people, and I’m having fun pointing out how ineffective D is being.
@D
Evidently, you don’t know how to spot a leading question.
@Bronze Dog
“And if you’re not posting arguments to change anyone’s mind, what’s the point? That’s pretty much an announcement that you’re just trolling for the lulz.”
See my above comment.
At this point, I recommend disengaging.
@Redloh
A lot of the alt-medders talk about how SBM is good for emergencies only. They do like to pick and choose.
Sockpuppet alert:
We appear to have someone posting under multiple sockpuppets who somehow slipped through. One warning: Cut it out. Pick a ‘nym and stick with it; otherwise the ban hammer comes down. There will be only one warning.
Did someone say … syllogism? If you want to present your case in syllogism form, trust me that there’ll be someone quite ready to respond in kind. I won’t even be picky on the technicalities and make you phrase your premises and conclusion in formal set theory statements. But oh yes, if you want to express your views in syllogism form, I would welcome that – just make sure you don’t “accidentally” switch from one ‘nym to another between comments, or else you might get banned for sockpuppetry before you can complete your argument.
Re: Sockpuppet alert:
Now *THAT’S* the best news I’ve heard in a long time! I suspect the socks will cry repression and and being denied their free speech if they’re not allowed to continue their incoherent multi-ID-woo ramblings.
Re: Sockpuppet alert:
Orac, if you have rules just enforce them. Because of your warning/drama, your “believers” are now just rambling about sockpuppets. That’s how much control you have over weak minds.
I run my blog as I see fit. Do not presume to tell me how I should run it.
One comment about sock puppets since the warning went out. That is hardly “believers” rambling.
LOL, It was just me rambling about sockpuppets!
@Leah, for someone who spends as much time as you do here, it seems you’ve missed a pretty important concept about “believers” versus skeptics. In any case, apparently my ‘nym wasn’t one of the sockpuppets Orac was referring to, since I’m obviously not banned. Gee, I wonder who won’t be back?
Do you have anything to contribute to the discussion about Protocel, Entelev, CanCell, or Cantron?
15 comments on August 20th and 21th were sockpuppets. When the cult leader just adds to the stupidity, one has to wonder if he’s playing with a full deck. Maybe now, Orac, you’ll see why most people on BCO believe that you, thenewme and blackcat are the same and don’t take any of you “characters” seriously.
@Leah – why do you assume that Orac cares what you & your little “altie” friends talk about in your little sewing circle over at BCO – beside, you know, caring that you are attempting to convince women to eschew life-saving treatments in favor of untested & unproven “cures.”
It must burn you up inside to see your position so thoroughly demolished – and perhaps the anger is based in a psycho-somatic response to the thought that you may have lead to the deaths of even one woman who may have been saved by real cancer treatments.
….AND she changes the subject. Why am I not surprised?
Well said Lawrence – the “alties” should be thrown in jail
[…] on this blog at one time or another. The litany should be familiar: laetrile, shark cartilage, Entelev/Cantron (which I recently discussed, with the comment thread afterward having swollen as of this writing to […]
Interesting claim for you to make, Leah, since AFAIK the only people who can assert with certainty that a comment is from a sockpuppet are the moderator, and the one doing the sockpuppeting. You’re not the moderator, therefore …
The entire reason why sockpuppeting is done, by those unethical enough to resort to it, is to create a false appearance of widespread support where none exists. Why would anyone take your word for what “most people on BCO” believe? Given that you’ve already admitted to making up the “chemo nourishes” straw man, why would I trust you to not make up other nonsense?
Leah, if you don’t want to be considered dishonest, don’t defend the dishonest practice of sock puppetry or offer up our predictable, human reaction to sock puppetry as an excuse to disengage.
If you had good evidence and simply stuck to presenting and explaining that evidence, we’d have something more directly relevant to talk about. We’re skeptics. That puts limits on what we can do in an argument. Usually, we’re stuck with reacting to the advocates’ arguments and evidence. It’s up to the advocate to provide evidence for what he’s advocating. We’re here to object to assertions made without good evidence and to logical fallacies when the conclusion does not follow from the available evidence.
When an advocate engages in dishonest tactics, he’s giving us something to do beyond repeatedly pointing out the poverty of evidence. It’s human nature, and it’s shockingly naive if you think we’d silently let dishonesty pass. As an advocate, you’re usually the one with the initiative. You act, we react. Anyone who understands human nature and internet culture would be able to predict our reaction to sock puppetry. If you don’t understand our reaction, that would suggest you have a lot to learn about other human beings and how we interact with each other.
If you admitted that sock puppetry is inherently dishonest, refrained from practicing it, and discouraged other advocates from practicing it, we’d no longer have our stated reasons to go on about it.
@Bronze Dog,
I couldn’t agree more! The trouble as I see it, especially at BCO, is that they simply *don’t* have any good evidence! That’s why the alties there resort to deleting my posts and having my account banned yet again just this morning. They don’t like me pointing out facts and evidence and questioning their methods, so they silence any opposition by deleting and banning.
Interesting… I was one of the ones who posted on the “20th” (I’m not in the same timezone as the one used for the comment dating).
Where is my Big Pharma check? I would like $10 billion doilars please.
Now, I enjoy a horse race as much as anyone else, but I think the Gish gallop has been overdone here.
@flip,
So you’re not one of the 15 sockpuppets either, LOL?
As for “most people on BCO” believing that I’m Orac and/or Black-Cat, maybe so, but I doubt it. It’s probably just the few cowards who don’t have any real substance to use in discussing breast cancer treatment so they play games instead:
-Ban, delete, and censor your opponents!
-Change the subject, quick!
-Project, project, project!
-Cry bully.
-Perfect your “Poor-poor- little me” schtick.
-Make dramatic posts about how, despite the fact that you’re an MLM scammer, a quack, and affiliate marketer, you’re not trying to make a dime from your scammy posts.
-Insist that you’re only trying to “help” cancer patients and generously and unselfishly “sharing” all your research information!
-Never forget namecalling as a great tactic.
-If all else fails, make sh!t up and accuse your opponents of it, then invent some new make-believe friends to join the fun.
Gish gallop, indeed!
@Flip, to clarify…. only the first line of my comment above was directed at you!
The rest was in reference to the Big Bad BCO Bully Brigade.
@Leah
Unless you submit some credible scientific proof that alternative treatment work, you will not be taken seriously here. If you believe negative energy affects your chances of living a long life after a cancer diagnosis, why do you keep doing what you know will bring you scorn and derision?
@me
Seriously… I can’t type.
@thenewme
Nope… although now that I’ve posted a response to myself as @me, I’m sure rumours will fly that we’re somehow related. 😉
Beware, do not believe everything people say, they ALL have their own agenda, the cost of cantron stated is false, for a start, taking statements out of context has happened for centuries, warping the truth. Chemo, radiation and surgery cost more and do more damage to the body, so people end up dying of the treatment!! This man is totally bias.
Of course one should listen to talking zebras. They are experts on cancer treatment.
zebra,
As you are in England, you should check out the National Health Service, where you can get science-based cancer treatment free of charge. Ineffective quackery will cost you a lot more.
Why do you believe that chemo, radiation and surgery do more damage to the body than cancer? Why do you think these drastic methods of treating cancer were developed, if cancer is such a benign disease?
Perhaps you should take a good look at Orac’s look at the facts about this in the area of breast cancer. It isn’t true, you have been lied to and now you are trying to persuade other people that those lies are true, and possibly putting other people’s lives at risk in doing so.
Assuming you mean ‘biased’, then I suppose you are correct, since he is a breast cancer surgeon and has seen more cases of breast cancer than you and I are likely to see in our lifetimes, and is familiar with the studies that demonstrate unequivocally that you are wrong in your claims. He is biased in favor of the truth.
Whose truth?
I am guessing not yours. Remember, you are entitled to your opinions but not your facts.
Whose facts?
The facts that we have great confidence in because they are supported by careful peer-reviewed scientific study, and before you ask “whose careful peer-reviewed scientific study,” I can tell you the answer is “not yours, because you don’t have any.” Accepting methods of inquiry known to give false answers – like patient testimonials, which have attested to the wondrous powers of lobotomy, bloodletting, and slightly salted water in a bottle with a colorful label, among too many other non-remedies to mention – is not science, even if you try to imitate science’s outward forms.
What facts are you talking about? Citation, please.
Please be more specific unless you’re afraid of scrutiny.
Categrorical thinking is very woo.
D, have you bothered to read this article, or are you just another annoying insect?
You mentioned “facts.” You were going to reveal where they keep the facts and who created them. Is that question threatening?
Notice how the mention of “facts” is in blue text? That’s this Internet thing called a “link.”