A chiropractor strikes back at the Institute for Science in Medicine

Wow. He has no self-awareness at all. Perhaps adjusting the stick up his ar$e would be beneficial to him.

Now to get serious. I’m pretty sure that quacks have the right to marry who they want, to have kids or adopt them. They’re not denied housing or employment, nor are they murdered, victims of ‘corrective’ r*pe, or accused of being the root of society’s ills.

Pathetic, mewling, crybaby, wannabe medical professional, QUACK.

OT but speaking of Hitler zombies, Paula Kirby has claimed that feminist bloggers are simultaneously Nazis and Stasi for denouncing sexism.

Sorry Orac, you commented while I was writing mine.

I’ll change the subject now.

JCS is heavy with hyperbole. However, his grasp of the reality is, well, tenuous.

His intolerant quasi-KKK attitude

It’s true, you have all of these physicians running around in white garb and masks and burning caduceus-like sticks in front of the houses of chiropractors.

And it’s also true that it’s not correct to use the n-word anymore in North America. Instead, we say of a black man that he is from Kenya.

Similar comments could be done (and have already be done) on sexism, homophobia and other prejudices Mr JCS believe to be over.
Damn, the Texas Republican manifesto from last week is bristling with them. Talk about “politically incorrect”.
And of course, as pointed by ORAC, it’s all false equivalency.

ironically, research shows that chiropractic care is superior to medical care for most spine-related disorders

And research also shows that, if you let a chiropractor touch you above the neck, he is also superior at giving you spine-related disorders.

Orac, I agree that PhD’s should be able to call themselves “Dr” (I had a high school English teacher who had her Doctorate – and you only made the mistake of calling her ‘Mrs. M’ ONCE)

However it should also be recognized that some folks with PhD’s (*cough Viera*) abuse their credentials to give them and their opinion more weight than they should have.

A PhD paleogeology (or whatever it is V has) does’t equate to having the education and understanding to give medical advice.

That’s one thing that really ticks me off – and folks fall for it, because she uses the “Dr. V” tagline.

D.O.s are doctors. 99% forego the use of manipulative medicine and stick to hard science, but I believe it is mostly based on time and results… in today’s system, the use of manipulative medicine as an adjuvant therapy is just not feasible with respect to effort vs reward. But there is no denying that pain cam be alleviated with manipulative therapy, and a body that is not in a pro-inflammatory state does heal better, as does a body with a positive mindframe.

Careful how you judge medicine when you’ve not been on the other side

@ Blue Wode: You can see J. C. Smith’s book on the link that Orac provided:

http://chiropractorsforfairjournalism.info/Books_by_JCS.html

“Just as Woodward and Bernstein revealed Nixon’s Watergate fiasco, Smith has accomplish a similar feat in his investigation of the epidemic of unnecessary back surgeries. This book proves that back surgery may be the biggest ruse nowadays in the medical profession as an unnecessary and ineffective surgery thrust upon a gullible public. Someday it will be ranked with other unnecessary surgeries such as mastectomies, tonsillectomies, and hysterectomies. While these are often unnecessary, none of them leave patients as disabled as a failed back surgery.”

I *know* a breast cancer surgeon who might be a bit perturbed about that.

I’d also disagree that only MDs should be called doctors. PhDs have every right to be called “doctor” as well.

DVMs?

Before I respond, please take note of this disclaimer. In this post, I am not speaking for ISM in any capacity. I do not speak for ISM, nor am I authorized to speak on behalf of ISM. As a snarky blogger, I speak for no one but myself, and that is enough.

Am I the only one to notice that nowhere does Orac disclaim that he speaks for the mob? I think complaining about failing to receive your shill/minion payments may be a very bad idea.

@Darwy and the Dr:

Germany used to have a practical system where the “Dr” was qualified into subjects, e.g. “Dr. med. Hans Wurst” for a PhD (not just MD) in medicine or “Dr. rer. nat. Paul Aner” for a PhD in the natural sciences.

In practice people would still usually just say “Dr. Whatsyourname”, and IIRC Germany is now also slowly converting to PhDs, but at least in principle the structure to distinguish at least broadly was there.

Chiroquacktor is my phrase of choice, especially the ones who claim to be “chiropractic neurologists”.

Edzard Ernst coined “marketing based medicine” for chiroquacktic because the industry spends so much time talking about how to get more patients.

some folks with PhD’s […] abuse their credentials to give them and their opinion more weight than they should have.

UNPOSSIBLE.

what’s the good of being accused of running a conspiracy to crush any sort of “unconventional” or “alternative” medicine if we don’t actually have the power to crush unconventional and alternative medicine?

You mean you don’t have the power to instantly crush all chiropractic efficacy by uttering the magic phrase, “Anecdote is not evidence”? You seriously need to renegotiate your contract with Lord Draconios.

In the higher-ed world, my impression is that places in which PhDs are addressed as “Dr” tend to be a little lower on the academic food chain.

Indeed. In the society journals I’ve worked on, “Dr.” was forbidden in references to colleagues (generally in the acknowledgments). “Prof.” was OK for full professors. In correspondence, basically everyone was “Dr.,” often including graduate students and even the production staff when we received correspondence from foreign authors, unless we knew each other, which case it was first names as usual.

And I always call my vets “Doctor,” even though I’ve known them for a very long time. This puts me in an uncomfortable position, as they then insist on calling me “Mister” in return, which I dislike, but I can’t break the habit.

I also would have picked on rs’s “Careful how you judge medicine when you’ve not been on the other side”.
Every acupuncture fraud says that. You just judge for yourself you see, after having tried it. It’s the only evidence that matters, right? So I vote for “new around here”.

I kind of like the term “manipulative therapy” as an alternative designation for woo: you get manipulated into buying nonsense and learn to believe that it’s therapy.

I keep seeing adverts for MMS on this blog? Whats up with that?!

And of course ACT was also subject to a legion of bogus lawsuits.

Thank you Liz Ditz @ 3 Jul 1:06 pm for the perfect lead in with your Edzard Ernst paraphrase. On that subject, from Smith’s quoted passage above, with my emphasis

research shows that chiropractic care is superior to medical care for most spine-related disorders, a fact untold by the media and unknown by the public.

Hmm. Could that be because these chiropractors spend so much effort creating a market for themselves by suggesting that all health is spine-related?

And now it’s our fault that folks do listen to their marketing beyond what research shows? Hmmm.

@Orac:

I’m not aware of your involvement . The comment you made in THIS thread reads to me as making a judgement on the issue, and there’s no context given . That is what I was responding to and felt the urge to point this out to you in case you were not aware of that. I wasn’t making any judgements.

TFJ = Swizzlesticks, by the way. I’ll shut up and let you all get back to business.

@TFJ
“Is anyone aware of more evidence-based schools of chiropractry that concentrate on medically safe manipulation of the spine?”

yes i do, it’s called “orthopedic manual physical therapy”
it’s not chiropractic but they do use manual therapy (including spinal and peripheral joint manipulation) but in a medically safe way and evidence base context…

no “putting the vertebrae back in place” or other mystical pseudoscience concepts.

BTW – most of the research on spinal manipulation was done by orthopedic manual physical therapist…

“Inflamation” is CAM’s “quantum.”
Everything is caused by “inflamation” in some circles. Quacks like to take a tiny bit of the truth, add enormous amounts of unicorn, spriggin and MLP*, stir and regurgitate to the credulous . . . usually for a small profit.

Dangerous Bacon @11:20 —

Love the allusion!

For others who may not be familiar, the comedian Merle Kessler, kingpin of an outfit called Duck’s Breath Mystery Theatre; had a long-running series of radio skits, in which a character called “Dr. Science” would give ridiculous, and often very funny, answers to scientific questions. The intro said:

“He’s smarter than you are! He has a Master’s degree —– in Science!!”

There is so much out there on autism and chiropractic,here’s just a little sample.Surprised it has gotten so little attention here.

Chiropractor forms American Chiropractic Autism Board

New Research Sheds Light on Chiropractic and Autism

Autism recovery teams include chiropractors

Alternative cures for autism

EVERY month, Susan Crisp takes her eight-year-old son, Daniel, for a 15-minute chiropractic treatment.

“It was a coincidence that I saw it. I had the TV on and it really caught my eye because there were so many similarities between what he was talking about with his son and Daniel,” she remembers.

Chiropractic Care:A child with autism and a doctor’s incredible journey.

Does quantum gauge theory count? Asking for a friend.

Just wear the sleeve patch.

(Shouild be devil’s forks on those handles, though.)

@TFJ – curious if the chiropractor your mother sees is an older one? Hubby goes and sees one when his back hurts and the man is definitely an “I only manipulate the spine, I do not prescribe supplements, energy healing, etc. Chiropractors manipulate the spine to relieve pain related to spinal issues and nothing else” kind of guy. When we first began my own journey with illness a neighbor recommended her chiropractor/ND who waved this electronic gizmo up and down me and that, plus a 200-item or so questionnaire demonstrated various “weaknesses” that he would have to address.

The minimum cost for treatment from him was somewhere around $2000 every quarter, I believe. We went for the “free evaluation” – I was unimpressed by it all, hubby was terribly distressed by it all (the guy made it sound like I might keel over dead within a few weeks), but, lucky for me, that sum of money made hubby sit back and think long enough to get him away from there, and it was easier to refuse to go back when he had no money already invested.

Just today, I was looking on the Anthem Blue Cross website (our work-provided heath care) for a PCP for m’boy. The drop-down for all the various subcategories of provider had ‘chiropractic’ listed – as well as ‘acupuncture’ and ‘holistic care’. There were probably other woo practitioners there, too, but I got depressed and stopped looking. It is just ridiculous that our premium dollars are supporting rank quackery. If the ISM helps change that, I will be one happy puppy.

@Roadstergal: I buy individual insurance in WA state – craptastic catastrophic, no prescriptions, high deductible. Deductible is waived for 6 annual office visits, but those 6 visits require 25% coinsurance. But for chiropractic and acupuncture can have 12 visits with only a $25 copay.

Haven’t looked recently to see if I can get any kind of individual policy without that stuff in it, but I doubt it.

@artful lodger

Citations needed.

Oh, wait. You used the term “iatrogenically sick.” Dang, if you’d also used “allopathic” I’d have had Crank Bingo!

I differentiate dentistry from SBM. So I do have dental treatment done as & when needed, but without annual checkups.

I’d love to hear how you determine “as & when needed.”

@Phoenix Woman – that included, of course, his prescribed supplements, monitoring my diet, more of the waving of the electronic thing over me set to “heal” instead of “diagnose” (apparently electronic wand thingies are quite expensive), etc. LOL

As soon as he began doing the “diagnostic” I felt like an idiot. No idea why hubby believed that it was actually “doing” anything. I am always fascinated by people (even Mr Woo) who go far enough down the “alternative” path – because everything that most people take for granted is “a lie” to them and snake-oil salesmen, debunked cranks and their websites, etc., are all “the real truth.” When you bring up discarded prophecies that never came true, the implausibility of treatment theories by kinds of woo, etc., you are just someone who “refuses to know the truth,” not someone who prefers to believe things that are plausible.

@Artful Lodger – maybe you’d have fewer dental emergencies (and if you’re younger, you’ll avoid painful scaling procedures later and reduce/prevent the possibility of gum disease) if you would consider regular every six-month cleanings? A long time in a bad marriage reduced my ability to afford those kinds of “luxuries” and I regretted it a lot when I finally got on my own 12 years later. Just a caring suggestion – if you’re convinced the entire world is a scam artist hopefully you’ll at least not be enamored with things like laetrile when you suspect you have cancer vs. going to a doctor, being diagnosed and then evaluating all treatments offered. I can at least hope that you’re not being disingenuous.

The labelling of PSA as a useless test always irritates me. It is an extremely useful test, much easier to carry out than acid phosphatase which it replaced. There is no doubt that PSA is useful in both diagnosis and monitoring of treatment. There is some argument about whether it leads to overdiagnosis when used as a screening test in asymptomatic men of all ages, but to claim it is useless is to completely misunderstand its use. By the way, Ablin did not invent PSA, which has existed for millions of years, nor did he invent the test for PSA. Claiming that “mammograms, colonoscopies, cholesterol checks, blood presure checks, pap smears, PSA” are all not science-based is mind-bogglingly ignorant. I’m wondering if Artful Lodger is another incarnation of Emily/Pegasus, I detect similar style and content.

Artful lodger: Just examine the expansion of off -label prescribing, the medical reliance on profligate antibiotic use, the tacit recommendation of alcohol as “heart-healthy,” the vaccination of babies with Hep B a few hours old, ripping tonsils out prematurely & unecessarily… the list is never-ending.

Two points: First of all, while red wine is believed to be good for the cardiac system, that doesn’t mean ALL alchohol is automatically approved. Secondly, doctors don’t automatically yank tonsils anymore. I still have mine. I’ll shut up now and let the rest of the posters school you.
Mrs. Woo/everyone: In my city, we have free dental clinics, and lots of clinics that accept low income patients.
Narad: and how exactly did you find that out? Inquiring minds wish to know.

Artful Dodger, I asked how old you are, because if you’re younger than 50, you have no effing idea what starts to happen to even the heathiest body as one ages. If you think those tests are bullshit, then good luck to you. One more question: isn’t it hard to breathe with your head in all that sand?

And this is why we have flight computers with dynamic stability control.

I whirled it around my head on a string, dammit. It should have flown. Don’t even get me started on the Estes R2-D2 model rocket.

@PoliticalGuineaPig – very good advice. A bit more difficult in rural areas. Sometimes if you’re lucky, you’ll find a really sweet dentist who can afford to let you have a really long-term payment situation for more involved/expensive procedures, but frequently poorer people in rural areas just end up with tooth after tooth pulled because it is all they can afford. It’s a sad thing.

Growing up I had good dental care, but we drove almost an hour to get to a dentist – the closest county was the smallest in the state and had no full-time dentist, no full-time doctor, no hospitals, traffic lights, radio stations or television stations. They were oddly proud of that…

However, in the cities, especially ones with dental schools of some sort, you often can get free/reduced treatment there if you qualify. I definitely recommend that to people I meet in the virtual world as a possibility to investigate.

I now have no issues acquiring regular dental care, but a decade of not getting regular cleanings has required a lot of “catch-up” and very little of it is pleasant. Really hope that the Artful Lodger is being a bit coy about their dental practices or they might be in for a rude awakening at some point.

Artful Lodger:

Why should we care what individual people have to say about PSA screens?

What matters is that the bulk of the evidence shows about them.

Can you show that the bulk of the evidence supports your position on PSA screenings? Or are you just asserting some unsubstantiated poppycock that you happen to find personally compelling?

Good morning to all the MCPs (medical chauvinist pigs) who’ve enjoyed taking cheap shots at me and my profession.

I would so enjoy a direct debate on TV between those who still profess ol’ time medical bigotry and modern evidence-based chiropractors.

Any takers among this group of trash talkers? Do you have the backbone to go public with your outdated and anti-scientific concepts or will you continue to trash talk behind the scenes?

Although consumed by your own bigotry, your comments only reaffirmed the demagoguery, propaganda, and ignorance that prevails in the medical-drug-surgical profession. It’s so sad to see educated people with such narrow minds, but we’ve seen that before in Nazi Germany where good people were persecuted for being different, haven’t we?

I could argue each of your points, but I’ll let my book do that for me in 262-pages with 755 citations. If that is pseudo-science, I’d love to read your learned response to disprove my valid points taken from medical spine care experts.

Indeed, what science/research/guidelines will it take to convince you that chiropractors are the primary spine care providers whose treatments are both cost and clinically-effective as well as extremely safer?

Have any of you even read the AHCPR, UK BEAM, Manga I & II, BJD or any of the current 17 international guidelines that recommend SMT for LBP?

Or do you, like most MDs, subscribe to the “Don’t confuse me with the facts” mindset? Sadly, a closed mind is a terrible thing to waste, which may explain why we have an enormous medical crisis today.

As Composer99 said, “Or are you just asserting some unsubstantiated poppycock that you happen to find personally compelling?” Sounds to me like much of the medical propaganda against chiropractors.

After reading my book, please respond: I’d love to hear your rants against your own experts and international guidelines that recommend SMT over drugs, shots, and spine surgery for 85% of these cases.

In fact, you might learn that the medical model for LBP–narcotic drugs, ESI, and spine fusions–are addictive, ineffective, and based on the debunked “disc theory” that proves medical spine care treatments are the “pseudo-science” of today.

Ironically, after years of trash talk calling chiropractors an “unscientific cult,” now it turns out the evidence reveals that much of medical spine care is unsupported in the research.

BTW: You might enjoy this upcoming movie teaser: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C42_gnJ3a8

regards,
JCS
http://www.chiropractorsforfairjournalism.info

@ JCS: Too bad you chose a profession with a worthless degree… and too bad you engage in quackery… and label the professional licensed health care providers who are based in science…as Nazis.

“I could argue each of your points, but I’ll let my book do that for me in 262-pages with 755 citations. If that is pseudo-science, I’d love to read your learned response to disprove my valid points taken from medical spine care experts.”

(Shades of the latex-fixated troll) READ MY BOOK!!!!

Let me fix that fer yer…

Indeed, what science/research/guidelines will it take to convince you that chiropractors are the primary spine(less) care providers whose treatments are both cost(ly) and (not) clinically-effective as well as (proven to be not) extremely safer?”

If I want to have a soothing back massage JCS, I’ll make an appointment at the local spa. At least I won’t have to worry about a licensed massage therapist damaging my spine, and won’t have to listen to your drivel about spine manipulation being the root of all medical problems.

John, RPH: What is the chiropractic treatment for hypotension from exercising due to obstructive hypertrophic cardiomyopathy?

Ah Chris, no fair asking hard questions!! John only wants apostles, not fact-based information……

From Dr. Smith’s website:

http://www.smithspinalcare.com/Page_5.html

“The DRX9000 spinal decompression is not covered by any insurance. You will be happy to know we offer the DRX at a greatly reduced rate. For example, the manufacturer’s suggested retail price is $200 per treatment, but we offer it for only $65 (plus any other therapies or procedures, of course). The standard DRX program consists of 30 visits and we re-evaluate every 10 visits to gauge your progress. Many patients use the following plan below to pay for this treatment and other non-covered treatments.

Financing with CareCredit®”

Here’s the *scoop* (from a chiropractor website, no less), about the DRX9000 machine and other spinal decompression machines. Note the scandalous *marketing* of this *therapy* by chiropractors, the lying to patients about insurance coverage and the insurance fraud committed by chiropractors who, in the past, billed for this *therapy* under covered insurance codes. BTW, the manufacturer of the DSX9000 machine that Dr. Smith touts on his website, is out of business.

Tough luck Dr. Smith that you are stuck with an expensive *therapy* contraption. Tough luck for your patients as well, Dr. Smith, because you are paying off the costs of the contraption on your patients’ backs (pun intended).

Everything else notwithstanding, that JCS website is both juvenile and amateur. Not what someone would expect from a “medical professional”. The layout, the colours, the fonts, they all look like something out of a nursery school website.

Someone should tell Mr. Smith that red type on purple background is what is called ultra low contrast and is almost impossible to read. He uses red to highlight important text but it’s on that purple background so the purpose is defeated and it can’t be read.

Also, music that starts automatically is considered rude and obnoxious in the web design world.

Did you notice JCS shilling for yet another “Burzynski” style infomercial “documentary”? The film was for paid for by the chiropractic industry! And the “filmmakers”, like the Burzynski producer, come from the world of TV commercials; they’re not real documentarians. The fact Joe Mercola is featured in the teaser removed any doubt of credibility or objectivity.

The teaser also shows an adorable little baby, supposedly being manipulated. That scene turned my stomach.

my favorite part of JCS’ ludicrous website is when it says:

Just as the Jewish Anti-Defamation League protests against biased statements or articles in the media, we need to do the same—be that voice to respond to future attacks by medical misinformers.

Right, because calling out chiropractic’s lack of evidence is TOTALLY the same thing as Anti-Semitism.

Can someone please show me a subluxation? Please? Anyone?

Right, because calling out chiropractic’s lack of evidence is TOTALLY the same thing as Anti-Semitism.

I suppose the religiosity is there.

Anecdote alert:

For me personally it’s a 3-degrees-of-separation deal (contractor hired a guy who was a relative kind of thing), but to claim chiropractors are all shining beacons of truth and righteousness drives me nuts.

http://www.holdahlchiropractic.com/www.shouldvedoneacannonball.com/why_we_need_your_help.html

This, in particular (ellipses mine, apologies if I screw up the HTML):

Two weeks into Trauma Recovery we were fortunate enough to get an offer for his Chiropractic office on a promissory note to a semi-local chiropractor (…)This appeared to be a huge blessing to us, as we did not have any medical insurance at the time of his accident. We had over $900k in medical bills and were terribly afraid of losing everything (…) Unfortunately, less than 2 years after the “promissory note” the buyer drained our A/R, paid 5% of the principal owed, took our patients to his new office 15 miles south and went bankrupt on Jason’s practice.

@JCS – I have read before that chiropractic, if limited to what it can do (and do well), manual therapy, recommending appropriate exercise to rehabilitate injury, etc., that they would do fine. In fact, we have a chiropractor just like that here in our little neck of the woods.

He’s “one of your own” who eschews all claims of vitalistic thinking (i.e., he doesn’t “realign energy meridians,” etc.), doesn’t attempt to sell all kinds of various supplements, tonics or potions, etc. He says, “I can fix sore backs and I do it well.”

I like him. He’s cheap, if he doesn’t “fix” you repeat visits are free, etc. He also admitted that he can’t do much for spinal stenosis because of the actual physical narrowing of the spinal canal.

It’s too bad that so many of you either believe in what you’re selling or just like the idea of selling it to the unsuspecting. There is plenty you can do that is proven. Why add to it?

Oh. Wait. The money!

My bad.

Your ugly comments are shocking coming from so-called professionals as well as considering not one cited any evidence to support your bigotry.

If ISM is a science-based org as it claims, where is your evidence that supports your anti-chiro contentions? Not one of you has stated any evidence, but you all gave your opinions that are supported only by your own propaganda.

If any of you actually knew the history of this medical war against chiros, you might recall during the Wilk v. AMA antitrust trial that the chiros’ attorney, George McAndrews, asked the AMA’s bigwigs of their opinions of chiro, which were painfully similar to those on this blog. Then he asked the AMA leadership to prove it, and not one of them could do so. Indeed, they were simply repeating their own propaganda. And you wonder why I refer to ISM as a bunch of medical Nazis?!?

Secondly, are all of you stupid about the many comparative studies and guidelines that now support SMT for back pain? I cite 17 such guidelines in my book, but none of you seem to understand there is now more RCTs on back pain that recommend SMT over drugs, shots, and spine surgery.

Why is it this ISM group is so behind the times on the evidence? Has your bigotry clouded your judgment?

Thirdly, while honest MDs and spine researchers like Rick Deyo and Paul Goodley acknowledge the paradigm shift in spine care to “hands-on” care, few MDs seem to grasp the neurophysiologic implication of vertebral subluxations’ possible affect upon Type O disorders. Is this above your heads or education to understand interference to the nerve system may cause organic problems? This isn’t rocket science, but simply neurophysiology. Do they not teach you this in med school or what?

This idea is not new or invented by chiros. Do you recall AT Still, MD, founder of osteopathy also wrote of this? Do you remember Walter B. Cannon, MD, a professor of physiology at Harvard University, who coined “flight or fight” and his study on psychosomatic problems?

Why is it when medical men study the same phenomenon they are honored, but when DD Palmer postulates on the same concept, he is ridiculed? Perhaps a bit of medical bias prevails?

For those of you steeped in medical bigotry with closed minds, it is impossible to discuss this issue–similar to Jim Crow being reasonable about black people. Perhaps it will take another generation of MDs who are tolerant of other disciplines and the supportive research before chiro care is as mainstream as drugs, shots, and surgeries.

In the meantime, millions of back pain patients will suffer due to your bigotry; millions will become addicted to Oxycontin, millions will have ineffective epidural shots, and hundreds of thousands will become disabled from spine fusions based on the outdated disc theory. Indeed, your bigotry will cause pain and suffering to millions of people.

Aside from the lack of medical ethics in spine care, one thing is certain, the ISM is avoiding the evidence.

I challenge any of the GoodFellas at ISM to an open, live debate on CNN to discuss these issues. Let’s have Sanjay Gupta, neurosurgeon and CNN’s heralded medical director, act as host for this debate that will give the public both sides of this issue for the first time. Let’s argue in the court of public opinion to see who the public believes–medical bigots or the new evidence!

Do any of you have the backbone to put your medical chauvinism before the public? Like bullies in the playground, you spout your skewed opinions to scare others, but in the end, you’re really a bunch of cowards.

I can’t wait. Any takers?

JCS, so what is the chiropractic solution to arm pain from exercising that causes hypotension in someone with obstructive hypertrophic cardiomyopathy?

JCS:

I suggest you pay a visit to the Dachau concentration camp (in Bavaria) and Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp (in Poland) and perhaps read the three books written by historian Richard Evans on the Third Reich.

Then cram your despicable Nazi analogy where the sun don’t shine.

JCS sez: “If ISM is a science-based org as it claims, where is your evidence that supports your anti-chiro contentions?”

Before we, you, or anyone else can determine that ISM has any evidence in support of any contention, we have to see at least the contention that ISM has made. I personally can’t find any “anti-chiro contentions” on or off their website.

So, JCS, you should give citations (or URLs) for the “anti-chiro contentions” made by the organization that have you so animated.

Since many of you are unfamiliar with the latest research, you might enjoy this study:

Effectiveness of manual therapies: the UK evidence report
by Gert Bronfort, Mitch Haas, Roni Evans, Brent Leininger1 and Jay Triano
Background
The impetus for this report stems from the media debate in the United Kingdom (UK) surrounding the scope of chiropractic care and claims regarding its effectiveness particularly for non-musculoskeletal conditions.
Purpose
The purpose of this report is to provide a brief and succinct summary of the scientific evidence regarding the effectiveness of manual treatment as a therapeutic option for the management of a variety of musculoskeletal and non-musculoskeletal conditions based on the volume and quality of the evidence. Guidance in translating this evidence to application within clinical practice settings is presented.

You can read the entire report @ http://chiromt.com/content/18/1/3#B21

In regards to Mrs. Woo’s comments, why do you think if chiropractic care can’t cure everything, it can’t help anything?

If this is your contention and if medical care is so great, why does the US lead the world in every category of chronic degenerative disease? One might think with all the “wonder drugs” and surgeries that the US should be the healthiest country in the world.

Okay, stop laughing, but let me ask:

Why does the WHO rank the US 37th is medical care, 72nd in population health, but #1 in cost?

Certainly medical spine care can be accused of the “get less for more” story since the medical profession refuses to follow the evidence-based guidelines that call for conservative care first along with the shocking increase in its most expensive medical spine care treatments.

Indeed, if medical care is so good, why do we have a healthcare crisis?

So, Mrs. Woo, before you categorically condemn chiropractic, may I suggest you ask your own profession the same tough questions.

In regards to lilady’s comment: “Why on earth would I ever go to the local chiro to diagnose and treat lower back pain…when I have a medical doctor who is a specialist in orthopedics to diagnose and order physical therapy, if warranted?”

Obviously you are behind the times in spine diagnosis–22 years behind actually. Scott Boden of Emory found on MRI studies in 1990 that asymptomatic patients had disc abnormalities. Rick Deyo coined the term “incidentalomas” to describe these selling points by spine surgeons. NC BC/BS announced last year that a disc abnormality is a clinical finding, not a diagnosis, and will not pay for spine fusion based on an abnormal disc alone. Univ. of Pitt this year also announced it will not allow a consultation with a neurosurgeon unless the patient has had 3 months of failed chiro/physical therapy.

The point, Mrs. Woo and lilady, is that most back pain is joint dysfunction compounded by axial compression, and weak core muscles, not disc abnormalities alone. Pathophysiology has replaced pathoanatomical issues in spine diagnosis and care.

So, you can see your orthopedist who finds incidentalomas and recommends surgery, but until the joint dysfunction is corrected, you’ll continue to be in pain as millions of failed back surgery victims discover too late.

This is the evidence that has started the paradigm shift away from drugs, shots, and surgery toward conservative hands-on care. Plus, not to tell your patients via informed consent about these new guidelines is unethical.

Again, if ISM is so hell bent on science, just where is your evidence that condemns chiropractic care? Even Edzard Ernst’s salacious study, Deaths After Chiropractic, was a lame attempt to frighten patients. His stats–26 fatalities in 76 years equated to 0.34 deaths/year, but compared to the thousands of deaths via drugs, shots, and surgery, he should have applauded chiropractic’s safety rates.

The evidence suggests there is more proof that SMT helps LBP than anything the medical world offers, but you keep ignoring it because of your historical bias.

Instead, you continue to trash talk DCs, you continue to misinform patients about the safety of SMT, and you continue to leave “a wake of disability” behind as Gordon Waddell once wrote.

Again, Mrs. Woo, just because we don’t help everything doesn’t mean we’re not good at what we do–helping NMS patients. Isn’t it time to follow the guidelines and end your senseless genocide against chiropractors?

Again, I challenge the ISM to a public debate on this issue. Bring your bigotry and I’ll bring the evidence, then let the chips fall where they may.

Again, I challenge the ISM to a public debate on this issue. Bring your bigotry and I’ll bring the evidence, then let the chips fall where they may.

Perhaps you should tell them, rather than just making yourself look unhinged over here.

JCS, I see you’ve ignored hypotension in HCM. Perhaps you would prefer an easier question?

So how well do chiropractic therapies work for neonatal seizures? Is cranial sacral more effective than anti-convulsants? How about when the seizures cause the heart and/or breathing to stop?

ISM is not obliged to provide evidence against chiropractic practice.

As a matter of principle those claiming positive medical indications for their practices have the responsibility of showing the safety and efficacy of their practices. That is, you have the evidentiary burden of proof exactly backwards by any reasonable standard.

Imagine if Merck or GSK were allowed to immediately bring products such as, say, Vioxx to market and regulatory agencies had to provide evidence against them before they could be regulated or removed. You appear to be claiming that standard for chiropractic practice, a standard which is clearly specious.

Just as pharmaceutical companies are required to provide safety and efficacy data before they are given sanction to market their products, so ought chiropractors show their practices have a suitable risk/benefit ratio and clinical efficacy for any given indication before they are given sanction to do so.

In addition, since traditional chiropractic is based on scientifically-discredited vitalism and nonexistent physiological phenonema (the subluxation blocking innate intelligence) it is, by definition, quackery, in the same way that ancient Greek humour-based therapy (e.g. bloodletting) would be. You may find that an unseemly insult, and indeed it has pejorative connotations, but it is accurate.

Here at chirobase.org, Dr. Smith is quoted about chiropractic care for children…to “prevent spinal decay”.

http://www.chirobase.org/09Links/q-z.html

“James C. Smith, DC: “Just as dental care is a family affair, we believe spinal care should also be for everyone in your family. We offer a discount family plan to enable everyone in your family to avoid the future problems suffered by neglect. Just as you prevent tooth decay with maintenance care, we urge you to prevent spinal decay with regular preventative care in our clinic.” [8/30/04] “

@Mephistopheles O’Brien,
Spinal decay better be real, because I just went out and bought a spine brush, spine paste (no fluoride, of course) and a package of spinal floss, and they weren’t cheap!

@JCS – most of the things it suggests most strongly are treatment for spinal issues, which no one here argues that chiropractic can take care of. However, vitalism has no basis in science. It is unlikely that a spinal adjustment will improve hepatitis or kidney stones. Chiropractors practicing what is scientifically demonstrated as effective treatment get no argument.

Chiropractors who are what you describe as “chirovangelists” on your website are more likely the target for derision. Science-based treatment is fine.

The way you portray your profession and the medical profession, though, is more than a little amusing. I have been trying so hard not to ask if a persecution complex made you choose chiropractic or if you developed one somewhere in chiropractic school?

I haven’t seen anyone here suggest that chiropractic is not effective for low back pain. Lilady suggested that a trusted orthopedist could do just as well, probably recommending physical therapy and surgery as a last resort.

Our local chiropractor doesn’t do anything but back issues and doesn’t have much respect for chiropractors who venture further than that with unproven claims. Since you are so willing to share studies, etc., surely you agree that making unproven and unlikely promises isn’t a good thing?

I didn’t say chiropractic can’t help anything. I said that chiropractic cannot help everything. Big difference.

JCS – Do you have evidence that shows that spinal manipulation for infants and children provides a benefit?

I notice that I’ll Have Another retired between the Preakness and the Belmont, and will not race again. Is there, in your view, a connection between chiropractic treatment and this outcome?

If you want to talk about back pain, I think most people would listen to the evidence. What is your view of chiropractors providing treatment for conditions where the is no evidence that chiropractic methods provide benefit?

JCS – where do you stand on the push for DC’s and ND’s to be primary care physicians?

Well, JCS does not really treat kids. But he refers kids to DCs that do. So obviously he thinks that chiropractic therapy can work for medically interesting kids.

I linked to this site before…either here…or on the Ho-Po, when I took on a *mommy and her infant’s cranio-sacral *therapist*

http://www.craniosacraltherapy.org/Babies.htm

(I don’t know whether to laugh at this outrageous *therapist’s* blog…or to weep for the infants who are subjected to manipulations).

Let’s argue in the court of public opinion to see who the public believes–medical bigots or the new evidence!

Why the court of public opinion? Why all the challenges to public debates? Surely you’re aware these aren’t appropriate forums to address whether or not chiropractic treatments are of any benefit with respect to specific illnesses or disabilities.

Even the Kentucky Derby winner, I’ll Have Another, was treated by a chiro.

Aside from the fact that the hed was wrong and the guy denies being a chiropractor, why should this convince me that chiropractic is good? It’s yet another anecdote. How is it anything but an argument from authority or popularity, both bad logical fallacies? Are you claiming that chiropractic is the reason he won the Derby?

I’ll Have Another also had to withdraw from the Belmont due to a tendon injury. If you get to claim that chiropractic helped the horse, I have an equal amount of evidence that it caused his injury (i.e. none.)

Re equine chiropractic (which I have paid for and in some instances, will continue to pay for): depending upon the practitioner, it’s more like physical therapy for horses than human chiropractic.

I am not a lawyer, but I believe that different states have different regulations re animal chiropractic. In California, it used to be that a licensed DVM had to be present when chiropractic adjustments were administered.

I have ceased using chiropactic as part of my care, because of the risk. I can get the same results with an effective massage.

And let’s address the issue of the relationship between (some) chiropractors and the anti-vaccination movement. Tim O’Shea DC has been leading the way, with his classic The Sanctity of Human Blood: Vaccination Is Not Immunization. Sadly he is right down the road from me and is one of the leaders in the fight against CA AB2109.

Koren Publications (“Helping chiropractors educate the world”) markets a number of “vaccine information” products.

Educate your patients with up-to-date information on the dangers of vaccination.

Koren sells a $500.00 “Vaccination Lecture Kit” that teaches chiropractors how to lie and mislead about vaccinations, and how to more effectively spread Fear Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) about vaccines.

He also markets a “Myth Busting Report on Childhood Vaccines, with the following content

Today our children are expected to receive 81 vaccines by the time they reach school age. Yet today’s child is sicker than ever. We see a modern epidemic of allergies, asthma, autism, attention deficit disorder (and that’s just the A’s!) plus learning disorders, brain and other cancers, dyslexia, vision and hearing problems – and many other conditions that barely existed before mass vaccination. Are vaccines to blame for the chronic illness in our children?

Did you know that deaths from childhood diseases had decreased 90%-98% before mass immunization? That autism does not exist – or is incredibly rare – in non-vaccinated children? That vaccines are not tested for their ability to cause cancer as well as fertility problems in adults.

Before your patients take their children to the pediatrician for their expected shots, let them know the risks they’re facing. Give them the scientifically accurate information they desperately need to know.

Vaccine sales are predicted to generate about $20 billion in revenue in 2012. What else will this dangerous medical procedure generate?

Personalization (available for only $10) on the back of the report will let readers know that you are their local go-to-source for accurate healthcare information and preventive wellness care. To Personalize the Myth Busting Report select the appropriate option and follow the instructions below.

To personalize your Myth Busting Reports, please enter your copy in the Comments box during checkout. Please use forward slashes (/) to indicate the end of each line. Seven lines are available with a maximum of 30 characters per line. See sample below.

Personalized: $55.00 for packs of 100.

Chiropractors: damaging public health since….

ArtK – well put.

Re your location – are you, perhaps, Banana?

@Matt Ford
Take this advice form someone who read your comment – when typing capitalize proper names dammit, especially the goofy names of race horses. I had to read your comment 3 times Before It Made Sense.*

*I am sure that somewhere there is a horse named Before It Made Sense

John Raymond DC,

Thanks for your post. Perhaps you can answer the questions JCS has neglectedto and help break through what you consider a political debate.

1. Is there good evidence that says that chiropractic treatment provides benefit for conditions other than back pain, neck pain, and dizziness? Where is it?

2. Is there good evidence to say that chiropractic treatment of infants and children provides a benefit? Where is it?

3. Based on what we read of traditional chiropractic training, it is based to some extent of non-scientific vitalism and terms like “subluxation”, which have no physical meaning. What is your view of those? Are they still taught and if so, why?

4. JCS brought up chiropractic treatment of horses and mentioned that Kentucky Derby winner I’ll Have Another was under a chiropractor’s care. Assuming this is true, did that contribute more to the horse winning or to the injury that retired the horse permanently before the Belmont? How do you know?

I once met a veteranarian who told me she realized that chiro was bulls*it when a chiro claimed he could manipulate a horse’s spine. She said, have you ever looked a horse’s spine? Do you think a man is big enough or strong enough to actually move anything in that spine? If so you are deluded. And based on that, she would give no further credence to chiro.
That argument made a lot of sense to me, look at the positions chiros put a human into to effect a manipulation, how could they manipulate a horse?

@John Raymond – once again – no one here will argue about the science-based/proven treatments that chiropractic can do. However, there are chiropractors out there who will make all sorts of claims (including curing autism, curing heart disease, curing cancer) that are not proven and are based in theories that science can find no basis for.

I don’t consider myself cynical, but I might have become so. I have been dragged to faith healers, chiropractors, NDs and had thousands of supplements bought for me to “try” while hubby attempts to cure an incurable illness with few reliable treatments.

You haven’t listed what treatments you do vs. treatments you don’t, so I have no idea how “science based” your treatment modalities are. I have said repeatedly that I don’t object to chiropractors taking care of what they have been proven to be able to treat. I’m relieved, though, that you agree that JCS’s presentation is angry.

I have been to a chiropractor. They were someone who practiced a LOT of non-science-based treatments and wanted to set me up with a credit plan to pay for their very expensive treatments and have me agree to a minimum of three months’ treatment including the supplements they sold, the special unique diet they would prescribe, attachment to some electrodes here and there plus adjustments. His price per visit was six times higher than my primary care physicians.

So, I have been to a chiropractor. I was also to the chiropractor in town here, who only does back treatment, says that is all chiropractic methods actually teach that is “real,” etc. He I don’t mind having hubby go to. He couldn’t be much help to me and admitted it the first visit (not a lot you can manipulate when bone spurs grow into the spinal canal).

I do not mind chiropractors. I understand that separate laws in every state had to be created to let them practice and it was a long journey. I do have one observation, though – when medicine has proven that one of their treatments is not effective and/or a new treatment is better, the old is discarded. When chiropractic, though, it seems that a lot of teachings (depending on the school – maybe I’m wrong and it’s just students themselves who have embraced these “philosophies”) that are outside of scientific consideration or explanation are still taught and still used to explain it.

As long as there is a part of the group that practices that way it makes the whole group seem a little suspect.

I have had bad doctors, too. I dropped them when I discovered how bad they were. That’s the way it is. I will go to a doctor first almost always. When Mr Woo’s back hurts, though, I have no problem with him choosing the chiropractor first. He has helped him in the past and is very practical.

Does this make me “bigoted” or “prejudiced” against chiropractors?

Mrs Woo:

As long as there is a part of the group that practices that way it makes the whole group seem a little suspect.

And it’s not a small part that practices that way. There are the “straights”, of course, who most definitely practice that way and represent a definitive movement within chiropractic and strive to adhere to DD Palmer as closely as possible. DD Palmer definitely promoted using chiropractic well beyond those limits. (Indeed, the legend of chiropractic’s origin centers on a supposed cure for deafness accomplished via a single spinal manipulation.) And then there are the schools; I’ve reviewed the course offerings, and from those at least, it does not appear that many chiropractic schools trouble themselves with the limits of the profession. This is also borne out by the class-action lawsuits some students have won after successfully arguing that the schools left them ill-prepared to practice.

There are definitely some evidence-based chiropractors out there, people like the retired Samuel Homola, DC. But they are a minority. I suspect the majority want to be evidence-based, but lack the training (that lawsuit, again). The profession is too inconsistent to get any idea of what you’re going to experience just by noticing their shingle, and to date, professional chiropractic organizations have done little to address that.

Gee, our chiro is now quoting Gary Null. What’s next, some references to whale.to?

I knew the altie quacks would start using the “god particle” for their own ludicrous claims as soon as the news broke, but I thought it would be reiki quacks and faith healers.

Are you so sure, Mrs. Woo, considering the recent discovery of the Higgs boson “God particle”?

You are aware that “god particle” is simply a nickname I trust? How exactly does the discovery of the Higgs boson suggest that models invoking vitalism have any validity?

If find this attitude anti-vitalism attitude odd considering doctors are dealing with a vital entity and not a machine.

As far as i can see you’re using the term ‘vital entity” here simply as a synonym for “living organism”–how does noting the fact that doctors treat living organism srather than mechanical constructs argue that vitalism has a place in natural science?

After all, what is the difference between a live body and dead one?

Living bodies exhibit growth and development, metabolize, maintain homestasis, are capable of reproduction, display irritability, etc. Dead bodies do not.

How do you divorce the “life energy” from the health process?

What energy are you referring to here as “life energy”? How is it detected, how can it be quantified and in what units is it expressed?

The recent Higgs boson discovery must give you atheists alarm when the leading scientists announce this “God particle.”

Why? it’s simply an elementary particle predicted to exist by the standard model of particle field, representing the minimal excitation energy of the Higgs field (interactions with which result in elementary particles possessing mass.) How exactly is the discovery of teh Higgs boson any more alarming for anyone, athiest or otherwise, than the previous discoveries of hadrons, leptons or quarks?

Of course the Higgs boson is the “God particle” to Catholics, Orthodox, and some Protestants – without it you don’t have Mass.

@ Marc Stephens Is Insane:

We can expect to read loads more quoted by alties from the *ne plus ultra* of woo: he currently has 5 or 6 “scholars in residence* working with him to write “ground-breaking articles” ( like the recent *Bad to the Bone*) and a film production staff putting his”hard-hitting” documentaries together. All bilge is available @ Gary Null.com and the Progressive Radio Network. Or a facebook page of someone you vaguely know. You keeps sending this crap to you. Or sending it here.

Never has a surname been more appropriate than Gary “Null”.

His new movie has been referenced here dozens of times across various discussions from opponents of mainstream medicine. It was pulled down from free sites (probably a conspiracy theory surrounds that, like he was suppressed or silenced by Big Pharma) but I’m sure it will rear its ugly lie-spewing head again.

JCS – I must admit I’m very disappointed by the quality of that answer. Not only does it not provide any answers to the reasonable, polite questions that have been put to you, it brings in a number of irrelevancies. Can you explain how the Higgs boson relates to chiropractic care? You also hint that religion has some bearing on your field – what is that, precisely?

Likewise, your tu quoque argument (or in the immortal words of Peewee Herman, “I know you are but what am I?”) answers nothing. Likewise, your appeal to an unknown, undemonstrated, discredited life force loses much of your potential credibility.

You’d have done much better to explain the evidence that leads you to believe in the effectiveness of chiropractic care as well as what it is and is not suitable for. One can only hope that a more reasonable chiropractor (possibly John Raymond DC or one of his ilk, though it appears he’s a hit and run poster) will address the open questions since you, apparently will not.

JCS – In what year did David Eddy make that claim? And on what data did he base his percentage? I’ll give you a hint on the first: It was more than twenty years ago.

So good to have those more articulate step up in defense while I was visiting with family! Thank you.

Actually, I am not an atheist. I don’t see why I would have to be an atheist to believe the idea of some special “force” in living creatures that is improved by realignment, be it spine or “meridians” that are used to describe what is adjusted, is a doubtful idea.

How do I then describe the “life” that animates humans since we are so much more amazing than rocks? Well, I certainly don’t rely on advanced physics theory, etc. Just because there are things I don’t necessarily know the answer to I don’t go plugging guesswork into them. I’m perfectly content to say “I don’t know what animates us for as long as it does and why it ends.”

There are reasons things die – lots of them. But what exactly there is that makes a living thing so alive that we can’t recapture and put back into a dead body, what it is that makes every single living creature unique, I don’t know how we measure it. I do know that I see very little real evidence for energy pathways, etc. The one group of papers linked to earlier in here had very little that scored well for treatment of conditions not related to lower back pain. Either they scored high in reliability but the high score was little evidence, or they scored low in reliability with a score of higher possibility of improvement.

Anecdotally I can tell you that if someone is in pain that touching and just stroking them at a pressure that they find comforting can be a distraction from and help reduce the pain they feel. I believe it is a combination of endorphins and other things released because we feel nurtured and comforted plus the distraction of another sensation for our brains to focus on. Distraction also can be very effective for pain, provided it is a distraction that adequately interests the patient and absorbs their interest.

@JCS – the mumbo jumbo introduced by vitalism – energy healing, distance healing, etc., is unproven and has no scientifically viable explanation as of yet. I would actually be pleased to hear that it could be done. Imagine healing cancer with nothing but a wave of a hand! All of us would love to be able to do that, even moreso if we have watched anyone we love battle cancer (and I have, including both parents, deceased, a lot of first degree relatives and several friends).

I find it fascinating that you make so many assumptions when you attack us, like all of us are medical personnel (and usually physicians), all of us are atheists, all of us believe the best treatment has to be a “chemical” substance and insinuating that it is not good for you and only created to make you sick and/or dependent on medicine (maybe you should go see what chemical substances are – there are some very natural chemicals out there!), etc.

Since plants are living things, too, do you realign their “vital energy pathways” when they get a bit droopy?

If religion has a bearing on medicine, I’d like to know which one so I can start hedging my bets. My primary care physician is a Roman Catholic* but my dentist is Hindu and although I’m not sure about my optometrist, based on his last name and country of origin, I would say that there’s a good chance he’s not Christian.

(*I didn’t ask and she didn’t tell, but the ashes on her forehead last February 22d were kind of a hint).

Chris :

JCS:

The recent Higgs boson discovery must give you atheists alarm when the leading scientists announce this “God particle.” Indeed, how do you ignore the role of vitalism in the human body and healing experience?

Nothing reveals how clueless someone is when the mistake a nickname for something that is very important to some kind of religious silliness.
…
The “god” particle just meant it was a very important thing to find. Nothing else.

It’s even more revealing when one realizes that the nickname was a publisher’s bowdlerization of the actual (physicists’) nickname. This according to the guy that wrote the book on the Higgs. It was the “goddamn” particle because of its importance and of the difficulty of verifying its existence. Google gives many more references to the real story of the name: just google for “goddamn particle” (with or without quotes). The WaPo ref is just the first.
No, I do not expect the clueless one to actually believe anything that his preachers have not instructed him to believe, nor to think other than what his preachers permit him to think. This reference is provided for those of us who actually care about reality.

eiπ + 1 = 0
or

e^iπ + 1 = 0

Euler transcendental meditation by an engineer:

eeeeeee… raised to iiiiiii times piiiiii equals minus ooooonnnneeee…….. eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

You might enjoy Medical GoodFellas Part 2 @ http://chiropractorsforfairjournalism.info/GoodFellas_Part_2.html

Enjoy,
JCS

Not only evidence, but some understanding that the US model of healthcare is not worldwide. You would be hard pressed to find many back surgeries here in Canada compared to what it was. We all agree that there were too many surgeries in the past. Just like there were too many chiropractors claiming all sorts of idiocy, including ‘helping’ with autism. Nowadays in Canada we do try other things but let’s face it, there are bigger issues surrounding back pain than just chiro vs MDs. There is an entire societal attitude that needs adjusting (pun intended). Most back pain sufferers would do the best thing in exercising every day. I don’t mean back exercises, I mean walking, biking, swimming, all of which are doable with a sore back.
As for JCS’s anecdote regarding a subluxed thoracic spine, I think he needs to review his anatomy. The thoracic spine is incredibly stable given the ribs that are attached and while you could perhaps postulate ‘subluxations’ in the region of the cervical or lumbar spine, you are being foolish if you think this happens in the thoracic spine.
So JCS how do answer all the PTs that have dealt with patients who have ‘failed’ chiropractic care?

Thanks for mentioning Friends of Science in Medicine JCS – the overseas friends list includes a number of familiar names, including our host here. I entirely support their efforts to get superstitious nonsense removed from the syllabuses of reputable academic institions. Chiropractic and homeopathy should be taught (if at all) somewhere they won’t be mistaken for science-based medicine.

Here’s a chiro who claim to treat migraines. This guy treats both sinus and migraine headaches, carpal tunnel syndrome and fibromyalgia (which doesn’t even exist).

See the tabs at the top of the page for each ailment he can cure: here’s one page on headaches.

http://drjohnraymondblog.com/category/headaches/

Is he out of his depth as a chiro? Bueller?

JCS:

I know it is hard for medical chauvinists to think anyone would voluntarily want to become a “real” chiropractor and embrace the vitriolic medical bigotry.

The irony of this sentence is amazing. Not only are you grotesquely overestimating the amount of “bigotry” you face (yes, you have to put up with people *doubting* you and *disagreeing* with you, oh poor you), but you are quite proud to start your rant off with a preemptive insult against those who disagree with you. The word “projection” comes to mind.

Honestly, chiropractors and other alternative practitioners enjoy considerable protection in this country. So you can’t pretend you’re an MD or a DO. So what? Why would you want to, especially given how deeply you loathe those professions? Chiropractic has been found to be of equivalent usefulness for the treatment of uncomplicated lower back pain as medication. It is not better. It is simply different. For those who suffer significant side effects to medication, it can be a godsend, and for the rest, hey, less medication is generally a good thing. But why would you complain about not being accepted as a real doctor if that’s all you do? In my experience (dangerous words, I know), chiropractors who object to their status are the ones who want to be primary care practitioners and treat all comers. Not merely cases of uncomplicated lower back pain, but migraines (which are *not* tension headaches), neck stiffness, asthma, sinus infections (yes, I’ve met chiros who claim to be able to treat sinus pain, though when I asked they had only a dim idea of how and were ignorant of facial nerve anatomy), allergies, autism, Crohn’s Disease, and more. I saw chiros asked how they’d treat a patient presenting with headache, stiff neck and fever; not one suggested going to the ER, or was aware that that’s a major sign of meningitis.

LWS — he has no idea what ISM says about chiropractic. All he’s doing is projecting his sentiments about mainstream medicine onto ISM so that he can have a convenient foil for his martyrdom. I doubt he will respond to this post, as he has largely failed to respond to any of the specific questions put to him. I don’t think he even listens much. I rather think he’s gotten out of the habit of listening to people other than himself.

If he does, I have a peace lily at home that could do with some serious attention. 😉

JCS – Why do you continue to ignore the reasonable questions about your profession in favor of calling those who ask questions trolls?

I think I know, but want to hear it from you.

@jcs

Thanks for the unabashed stupidity you have presented here. I do like a good laugh, and your utter inability to answer questions, along with the proficient ad hominem and crass idiocy displayed here, has given me a good laugh.

Please keep it coming, I do like a good laugh, and you seem like the perfect idiot and puppet to provide some good chuckles.

JCS:

So, where is the “science” behind unnecessary opioids, ineffective ESIs, or unsupported spine fusions?

That’s an odd question. There’s no science behind unneccesary opiods, ineffective ESIs, or unsupported spine fusions. But *neccessary* opiods, *effective* ESIs, and *supported* spine fusions are another matter. I know someone who can only get relief of her constant pain by using opiods. She’s seen chiropractors. She’s seen orthopedists. She’s seen neurologists. She’s seen PTs. She’s seen everybody. In the end, the only one that’s given her any relief (other than the anesthesiologist) is the pain clinic, which got her set up with a morphine pump. And she *still* hurts. The morphine just makes it bearable.

You want to compare errors made by doctors to successes by chiropractors, as if this somehow indicts all of medicine and vindicates all of chiropractic. But that’s absurd. Errors can and do occur in any field. That’s why you should *want* regulation and scientific research. The “freedom of choice” sounds great, but every politician I’ve seen pushing it has been backed by alternative health organizations and corporations. They have a vested interest in avoiding research that might disprove their therapies, and peer review that might spotlight how they have the scientific process completely backwards. (Rather than testing their hypotheses, they are usually collecting evidence to support their conclusion, a very different thing.)

I do not think chiropractors should be able to represent themselves as general practitioners. They are specialists, and the breadth of their training is not adequate for that role. I have no problem with wanting to do spinal manipulation and be a primary care practitioner (what Joe Public refers to as a “doctor”) — for that, go get a DO degree. Be licensed to practice medicine, not just chiropractic.

Does medicine make mistakes? Is medicine sometimes unscientific? You bet. But that’s a lousy argument for deregulation, which is, essentially, what alt med arguments boil down to. Alt med only looks safer because it’s not studied well enough to quantify its risks. You don’t actually know that it’s safer. You believe it is, and that’s fair, but you need to understand the limits of what you know.

the medical chauvinistic attitude has always been perplexing considering the outcomes of medical care are so poor despite the ranting of some MDs who ignore these facts.

Furthermore, without free enterprise in healthcare, the American Medical Monopoly continues to rip-off the consumers with expensive and often ineffective methods that would be weaned if there were an even playing field with open competition. This is certainly true in the spine care field. Yet some trolls on this list ignore these critical issues about the declining healthcare system that will soon bankrupt this country. Instead they resort to trash talk or suggest that I “go get a DO degree…to practice medicine.”

I’m still laughing at that chauvinistic thought. Why do you think we need more doctors pushing drugs? Indeed, if wonder drugs are so effective, why do we lead the world in every category of disease? We are now a nation of drug addicts because real healthcare professionals that profess natural, non-invasive, and non-drug methods have been marginalized by the AMA.

Instead of the benefits of a free marketplace that determines the best mousetrap, we see a medical cartel that restricts freedom of choice, ignores informed consent laws and instead resorts to trash talk to scare patients.

Dr. Steven Strauss, Advanced Leadership Fellow at Harvard University, mentioned this “cult-like belief” in the declining American healthcare system in his article, “America: Slouching Towards Third World Status.” This is particularly ironic considering the AMA has long-labeled chiropractic an “unscientific cult”; now the shoe is on the other foot with a leading Harvard professor accusing the public of having a cult-like attitude of the medical profession. Moreover, the medical profession has a cult-like opinion of its own superiority despite the poor statistics.
Many Americans still have an almost cult-like belief that America is the greatest nation on earth. They systematically reject evidence suggesting we have significant room for improvement.
I defy anyone to name a single important health care metric where the U.S. is considered a best-practice example as a nation. The only thing we lead the world in… is cost of health care. We have the world’s most expensive health care system. For example, our health care system costs almost twice Canada’s, but we produce inferior results.
For Boehner to say we have the best health care system in the world, and not be laughed out of office, is at best ‘trained incapacity’ or ‘occupational psychosis.’
This “occupational psychosis” is most evident in medical spine care as mentioned by Richard Deyo, MD, MPH:
I think the truth is we have perhaps oversold what we have to offer. All the imaging we do, all the drug treatments, all the injections, all the operations have benefit for some patients. But in each of these situations, we’ve begun using those tests and treatments more widely than science would really support.
We’ve witnessed disturbing practices that seem designed to maximize someone’s income, regardless of whether there was benefit or harm to patients.
This deception will continue by the medical spine community, primarily the upsurge in pain management clinics, aka, “pill mills,” offering opioid drugs and ESIs, and the spine surgeons who still cling to an outdated disc theory that leads to the overuse of complex spine surgeries spurred by million dollar commissions from device manufacturers.

We is the outcry on this blog about these issues rather than focusing on medical propaganda from yesteryear?

And you wonder why your remarks remind me of a troll?

@JCS – you have been repeatedly told that for some types of spine care no one will argue that chiropractic would be effective. If I remember correctly, the person who said you should get a DO to practice medicine said in the first part of their comment to you that if you wanted to work as a primary care provider you should have a DO. Since you yourself have agreed that chiropractic is best for spine care, and I doubt that you have had the same training in differential diagnoses, organ systems, etc., I don’t understand why you would be offended to be told such a thing – either you want to be a primary care physician and require more training to be qualified to do so (something that you have partway acknowledged in some of your comments about other chiropractors who practice and make claims regarding allergy management, etc.), or you are proud to be a chiropractor and treat spine problems (in what you apparently believe is the only reasonable method).

I am often baffled when people coming here supporting alternative therapies make such broad assumptions (including everyone here is a medical professional and/or ignoring what is said and repeatedly going back to their original diatribe). You assume, apparently, that if chiropractic were made a primary method of back pain management that no one would ever require narcotics again.

You also insinuate that if chiropractic were the “first stop” instead of a later one that the issues facing this country regarding medical care would be almost non-existent? Is that your assertion? What are you trying to say there?

Damn. The first sentence of my last paragraph was supposed to be in a blockquote, not a blockquiote. Probably due to posting too fast. I’ll slow down.

JCS – even if we grant your indictment of the US medical system in all its particulars (something I do not do, but just for the same of argument):

You have not to date provided evidence that chiropractic care provides any benefit for any condition other than back pain.

You have not provided any data to indicate that chiropractors receive adequate training to act as primary care doctors.

You have not provided any data to support any of the key topics in traditional Chiropractic (life force, subluxations, the linkage of spinal alignment to diseases other than back pain) .

Frankly, sir, your posts appear to have the sole purpose of insulting others without providing useful data.

Why, sir, should I not consider you a troll?

For example, our health care system costs almost twice Canada’s, but we produce inferior results.

of course, that is true. It must be due to the anti-chiropactic bigotry in the US system. Let’s look at some numbers to support this.

Chiropractors in the USA: 100,000 (see above comment by Krebiozen)

Chiropractors in Canada: 7000 (2012 figure from CCA)

Since the population of Canada is approximately 1/10th of the USA, the numbers show a marked shortfall of chiropractors in…Canada!

I’ll leave the obvious conclusion about health care costs and chiropractors in your chiropractical hands, JCG.

Obviously I am arguing with trolls who have not done any research on the effectiveness of SMT on Type O disorders. Instead, you simply repeat the medical propaganda that was disproved years ago at trial.

On the other hand, there are some “flowers in the desert” who are not medical chauvinists like the ISM trolls. FYI: a similar discussion on the “pseudo-science” issue started by ISM has continued Down Under with its associates in the “Friends” of Science in Medicine.

Fortunately, these flowers in the desert there have the backbone to refute their chauvinistic colleagues.

This vanished first time I submitted it, apologies if it appears twice.

Obviously I am arguing with trolls who have not done any research on the effectiveness of SMT on Type O disorders.

Firstly, as the saying goes, you keep using that word, but I don’t think it means what you seem to think it means.
Secondly, if you have some compelling evidence for the efficacy of chiropractic for nonmusculoskeletal disorders, do share it with us. The best evidence I have seen is an equivocal systematic review in an alternative medicine journal.

Trying again.

Obviously I am arguing with trolls who have not done any research on the effectiveness of SMT on Type O disorders.

Firstly, as the saying goes, you keep using that word, but I don’t think it means what you seem to think it means.
Secondly, if you have some compelling evidence for the efficacy of chiropractic for nonmusculoskeletal disorders, do share it with us. The best evidence I have seen is an equivocal systematic review in an alternative medicine journal.

Third time lucky?

Obviously I am arguing with trolls who have not done any research on the effectiveness of SMT on Type O disorders.

Firstly, as the saying goes, you keep using that word, but I don’t think it means what you seem to think it means.
Secondly, if you have some compelling evidence for the efficacy of chiropractic for nonmusculoskeletal disorders, do share it with us. The best evidence I have seen is an equivocal systematic review in an alternative medicine journal.

A question for JCS –

Can a chiropractor cure deafnes? Did Palmer tell the truth in case number 1, or was the whole thing made up? Or was it something else? What do you think really happened?

So I did a quick Pubmed search for “effectiveness of SMT on Type O disorders”. What I found was 3 paperes:

Spinal manipulative therapy for chronic low-back pain – “High quality evidence suggests that there is no clinically relevant difference between SMT and other interventions for reducing pain and improving function in patients with chronic low-back pain.”

Efficacy of spinal manipulation for chronic headache: a systematic review. “SMT appears to have a better effect than massage for cervicogenic headache. It also appears that SMT has an effect comparable to commonly used first-line prophylactic prescription medications for tension-type headache and migraine headache.”

Trunk exercise combined with spinal manipulative or NSAID therapy for chronic low back pain: a randomized, observer-blinded clinical trial. “For the management of CLBP, trunk exercise in combination with SMT or NSAID therapy seemed to be beneficial and worthwhile.”

Are there other studies I should look at?