Time to rally the troops against the antivaccine movement

Wakefield’s character assassination of Brian Deer is eerily remniscent of Christopher Monckton’s shtick. Is it something in the water over in the UK that makes their cranks so vicious?

Or is it a universal phenomenon among cranks & charlatans?

Calling someone a reptilian is flattering? (Or at least there are less flatting ways to describe someone?) I’m not sure about that, although I love reptiles and snakes.

I suppose calling mr. Wakefield mad as a hatter is the most flattering thing I can think of.

“Some who’ve had the misfortune of meeting Deer describe him as reptilian and repulsive. Others would describe him in less flattering terms. Setting the sleaze factor aside, Deer’s legacy of slander and libel signify a far grimier, foul and filthy place than most of us would care to venture. Deer is the invention, the dark underbelly, the hideous caricature of those who deny an MMR-autism connection in order to protect themselves. He assuages the conscience of those without one, and scrubs clean the crime scene. Vicious and small, Deer’s pious position is untenable and in short order he will be hunted to ground and brought to justice.”

Is Marsha McClelland Wakefield’s PR rep?

That AoA piece comes from the green ink filled pen of Wakefield groupie Ed Arranga

Not in Michigan, but I did send this letter to the Gov:

Dear Governor Brown:

I am, like many Californians, a transplant to this fair state. I moved here for work at the beginning of 2007, and have been a happily employed and engaged resident of California since then.

I came here to work as a scientist. One of the major reasons I originally chose this career path is the massive potential scientific discovery has to make all humans live healthier and longer lives.

One of the greatest public health advances of the modern era has been vaccination, a low-risk, inexpensive, and effective intervention. Vaccines have eliminated smallpox; they have reduced the incidence and severity of many other diseases that are killers and maimers of children. AB 2109 is a very reasonable measure to ensure that parents that wish to avoid vaccinating their children are aware of the health risks to themselves and others by doing so, and the legislature sensibly passed this bill.

However, a vocal subset of well-intentioned but highly misinformed residents are trying to convince you to veto this bill. Please allow rationality and concern for public health be your guide, and sign this bill into law.

My thanks,

me

hunted to ground? Someone needs to get some sleep, lay off the stimulants, and step away from the keyboard.
http://images.mmorpg.com/features/5006/images/Hyperbole1.jpg

@ Rebecca Fisher:

The line that really got me concerns the “Dickensian.. dandy” et *bon vivant*- just hilarious! though unintentionally so. I think EA confabulated this scenario after perusing BD’s website which includes an ancient photo of a fellow who is probably an ancestor.

LIke no one has photos of their ancestors – or likes them. Seriously, an elderly relative of mine gave me a photo of her father, a well-dressed Victorian, who looked just like me.. but somewhat less feminine. It’s almost scarey but I enjoy looking at his photo: you can see genetics at work, I understand that we have other things in common: I wish I knew him!

The anti-vax league have some very odd obsessive tendencies and should carefully observe their OWN ways of interpretting the world and other people’s actions.

Could the Wakefield press conference has anything to do with these “newly discovered documents”? (http://www.naturalnews.com/031116_Dr_Andrew_Wakefield_British_Medical_Journal.html)

It is nice to hear someone speaking up for vaccinations. I have been doing a personal exploration of alternative medicine and I have been shocked by the negative propaganda posted in regards to routine vaccinations. I was shocked to see claims that the flu vaccine caused alzheimers disease!

Not in Wisconsin or California, but I think there are other ways to support these efforts. Sent a couple emails.

Orac…You missed Anne Dachel’s article about the bot’s activity at the San Francisco Gate “Parents Can’t Sue Vaccine Manufacturers.”

Yup, the Dachel bot is on the move again and urging her groupies to spam the article.

http://www.sfgate.com/health/articleComments/Parents-can-t-sue-vaccine-manufacturers-3894230.php

I’ve just posted and I also got some points across about AoA and other notorious anti-vaccine blogs…suggesting that the SF Gate do an article on these anti-vaccine blogs and their collective agendas.

Almost a completely content free release–when you excise all the ad hominems all that’s left are two trivial statements of fact and one sentence expressing wishful thinking:

“In January Dr. Wakefield filed a defamation lawsuit against Deer, the BMJ, and Fiona Godlee, its editor. ” (fact)

“Currently under review by the 3rd Circuit Court in Texas, the question before proceeding to trial is: Does Texas have jurisdiction?” (fact)

“We are extremely confident the appeals court will rule in Dr. Wakefield’s favor within the next few months.” (wishful thinking)

“We are extremely confident the appeals court will rule in Dr. Wakefield’s favor within the next few months.” (wishful thinking)

@JCG, while it is certainly wishful-thinking on “their” part, they had better be careful what they wish for.

“Vicious and small, Deer’s pious position is untenable and in short order he will be hunted to ground and brought to justice.”

Another day, another instance of rhetoric using violent imagery from the anti-vaccine monsters.

All Californians thank you, Orac. I think I will actually go to Sacto (depends on a couple of moving pieces).

Stephanie Zvan, over at FreeThoughtBlogs has a nice post up about this topic as well. Hopefully she will be able to rally some more troops.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2012/09/27/an-elaborate-fraud/

Since I won’t be able to hear Deer’s talk, I’ll just thank him here for his tireless work in exposing dangerous lies from pharmaceutical firms and from corrupt ex-doctors.

@ herr doktor bimler:

My own take on Arranga’s rather bizarre statement ( @ 12:04 pm)..
I personally take “dandy” to signify a sartorially splendid gentleman **, independent of historical era, although perhaps usually associated with the times of Beau Brummel to the Late Victorian era- not necessarily Dickens’ times.

However, it is possible that EA really means something ELSE but he is too cowardly to say it. Prejudiced people often telegraph hidden meanings to their cohorts thinking that no one else can pick up on it..

** perhaps even a lady, why not?.

I’ve had a lively email discussion with the author/staff of this article http://www.sfgate.com/health/articleComments/Parents-can-t-sue-vaccine-manufacturers-3894230.php

I complained that the Dachel bot was going off-topic and was spamming the article. I provided Dachel’s AoA blog to the San Francisco Gate, where she was bragging about her spamming comments and I urged the author to review the bot’s spam:

http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/09/parents-can-not-sue-vaccine-manufacturers-for-injury.html

Suddenly, the Dachel’s spamming comments are gone.

but possibly too obscure

Did you know that “death is a dandy” + “it’s a rainy day” yields but one Google search result?

MESSAGE BEGINS————————–

Well, what can be said Shills and Minions?

There it is in black and white. “Reptilian and repulsive.” Just what exactly are we to make of this aliterative word pairing? Clearly the maverick, health freedom fighters have discovered Mr. Deer’s, shall we say, “heritage.” This isn’t what disturbs me however. Yes, I know he’s “vicious and small,” but he’s from the lineage of the K’throbey clade and they’re one of the smaller Glaxxon subspecies, nothing to be ashamed of. It’s the whole “repulsive” business that has my crest in a bunch. I really think they’ve gone a bridge too far this time. And what’s with the whole “with the grace of a Sloth and his own worst enemy?” I find sloths to be rather graceful, if a tad glacial in their movements. And who is this worst enemy that will be accompanying him? Honestly, it makes no sense to take one’s own worst enemy to Harvard Law School to release a floodgate of suppessed corruption. Aren’t we the suppressed corruption? Am I missing something here? Shills? Minions? Anybody?

Well, we shall have to show up en masse to support loyal Shill Deer, who has served our subjugation efforts so tirelessly.

Repulsive? Get me my thranzor . . .

Lord Draconis Zeneca VH7ihL

Forward Mavoon of the Great Fleet, Subjugator General of Terra, Large and Vicious and I’ll show you Repulsive you chakvetz khaaks . . .

Glaxxon PharmaCOM Terrabase DIA
0000000110101110111100010001

————————-MESSAGE ENDS

Troops have been already rallied against those opting out of vaccination since Jenner wanted to inoculate animal pus into healthy children.

What troops really need to be rallied for is to apply Evidence Based Medicine, born in 1990, to all the junk science inherited since Jenner’s times and still accepted today by inertia and/or financial interest.

@GF – the slime crawls back out of the sewer….what fun.

Let’s be short and to the point: My baby, my world, my life, my problem! Buzz off!

The bottom line for Californians and everyone else: fuck exemptions, just don’t vaccinate! There are no legal grounds to force invasive medical procedures on unconsenting persons unless a judges rules there’s a emergency situation, and there’s none.

Ah, el deshonesto y anti-semita de “PutinReloaded” asoma su cabecita para que crean sus colegas que aun es de importancia. ¿Qué pasa, Putin? ¿No tienes suficientes visitas a tu blog? ¿A caso ha censurado a demasiados lectores?

So Mr. Putin decided to join us? We must be special.

I made the mistake of trying to reason with this anti-semitic, AIDS-denying mother[redacted], and what does he counter with?

He counters with epidemiologic studies while, at the same time, he attacks epidemiology as a “pseudoscience”. What a joke.

@PR

There are no legal grounds to force invasive medical procedures

You don’t know the law very well, do you?

@pr

And you still are as ignorant as ever.

Please, keep entertaining us, little puppet. It’s so amsuing to see one so unhinged as yourself make a fool of himself/herself/itself.

Apparently EA’s criterion for scientific validity is whether he finds the person sexually attractive. Well, at least he didn’t go ad hominem!

It’s not “your” baby and it’s not “your” world, PR, however entitled you may feel to saddle both with the effects of your wrong-headed and dangerous douche-baggery..

You can’t own another human being the way you can own a bike or a coffeepot or a yo-yo, in this country at least, since 1862.

And if your decision not to vaccinate yourself results in harm to another human being, it’s not solely “your” life, either. Sharing space on this planet with others has a number of obligations thereunto pertaining. Pity you’re too selfish to see that.

So the author belives the drop in vaccination rates is to blame on “permissive” exemption rules. Then please tell us what sort of exemptions does Rhode Island have, for in spite of being lees tough than WV or MS they sitll have better vaccination rates! Cognitive dissonance!

R.I. tops nation in child vaccinations
http://www.boston.com/news/local/rhode-island/2012/09/26/tops-nation-child-vaccinations/Kg9S24yR7LKbvX5oTB2UhI/story.html

Beamup said: “Are we to understand then that we should similarly “buzz off” if you decided to not give your baby any food?”

You imply thatf vaccines being as necessary as food… so please read the Nuremberg Code of medical ethics regarding medical experiments.

Invasive medical procedures are not a basic human need. The practice exposes HEALTHY PEOPLE to serious risks of permanent, incapacitating injuries. Is a basic need to expose perfectly healthy kids to VACCINE INJURY?

The risks of vaccines are neither well defined nor totally known. The risks of the targetted disease are just as fuzzy too. This UNCERTAINTIES turn vaccination into a MEDICAL EXPERIMENT the outcome of which on a particular baby is UNPREDICTABLE and a bet. I’m ready to appear in court to defend my position if need be.

Regarding food… should we similarly “buzz off” if you feed junk food to your child? Perhaps if you fed your children properly – and the same is valid for the 3rd world – there wouldn’t be any need for vaccines (real or perceived).

Only a JUDGE can determine where my rights regarding my child wiil end, not a PEDDLER of industrial products for healthy people. VACCINE INJURY is not protection, so you know where you can stick the 14th Amendment in this issue. Unless tehre’s an IMMEDIATE DANGER to the life of a child, medical decisiones are taken by the parents, and (pretended) PREVENTIVE measures don`t fall ito the emergency category.

Darwy said: “…the rights of the child are equal to the rights of the parent under the law. ….So a JUDGE has ALREADY DETERMINED that CHILDREN are ENTITLED to EQUAL protection under the LAW…”

Since nobody is forcing vaccines on adults, even in the knowledge that vaccine-induced antibodies WANE, it appears the judges have less confidence in vaccines that you do.

As a warden I’m responsible for the health of my child, which includes PROTECTING IT FROM VACCINE INJURY.

While vaccine risks remain underreported and denied while risks of contracting a disease with a bad outcome are being exaggerated, no credible risk/benefit analysis in favor of vaccines can be presented to any judge.

Removing exemptions won’t help your cause a bit, because parents will have no choice that resort to judges in order to enforce their children’s rights. As a consequence, vaccination will most likely be declared optional for good.

The important point you peddlers miss is that once a child is proposed for a medical procedure PATIENT’S RIGHTS kick in.

See what happened in Belgium: the only compulsory vaccine was polio, but in 2011 a couple went to trial and the judge decided in their favor based on the law of Patient Rights. Parents asked for clear information about the vaccine components and the associated risks. The judge found no satisfactory answers, especially regarding the safety of the vaccine, and therefore he acknowledged the right of the parents to refuse.

Now no vaccine is compulsory in Belgium any longer. This is what will happen in the US too if exemptions are removed. Good luck, peddlers of remedies for the non-ill!

Belgium and the US: Apples and Oranges.

Next comparison?

There are plenty of studies which show the efficacy and safety of vaccines. Again, just because you don’t understand the statistics in them, doesn’t mean the rest of us don’t.

Nice Godwin, btw.

They’ve been shown to the judges; this is why the number of payouts in the VIC are so small; because the incidence of true ‘vaccine injury’ is small; orders of magnitude smaller than the risks of the diseases they prevent.

2 billion paid out to how many families, versus the number of vaccine doses given?

As I said, small.

Statistics, learn some.

I’m AWED at the depth of your risk/benefit analysis, girl.

I’m awed at the depths of your ignorance. Pick any vaccine on the schedule, look up safety and efficacy studies on PubMed and then explain again how, “the safety and efficacy of vaccines is not assessed in double-blind, placebo-controlled trials with clinical endpoints before the are released upon the population”. It doesn’t take a great effort to find out what you say is completely untrue.

There are a lot of websites that are full of misinformation about vaccines, and you have clearly read the lies and believed them. Don’t believe anything you read until you have looked at the original source material, especially if you are planning to lecture literate people with scientific backgrounds about it. You might prevent yourself from looking like an idiot next time.

BTW, the NVIC has compensated 925 people who may have been damaged by vaccines since 1988. The likelihood is that the majority of them were not damaged by vaccines, but the court does not require causation to be proved at all if it’s a table injury,. This is a good thing, but it’s not evidence of the dangers of vaccines.

Even if all those cases were genuine vaccine injuries, that works out to about 40 cases every year, with many hundreds of millions of vaccine shots administered each year.

Your child is very much more likely to suffocate or strangle in bed (about 600 infant deaths each year in the US) than to suffer a serious vaccine reaction. Maybe your time would be spent better spouting outrage about bed manufacturers.

@ Krebiozen: Great post. I think you meant to refer to this legislation (not the NVIC!!!) 🙂

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/index.html

@ lilady:

Dan Olmsted is perseverating as expected @ AoA.
I think that these people ( contributors and commenters alike) need to find a hobby, take some adult education classes or get a weekend job. What they engage in on a near-daily basis cannot be healthy.

Krebiozen said: “..Pick any vaccine on the schedule, look up safety and efficacy studies on PubMed and then explain again how, “the safety and efficacy of vaccines is not assessed in double-blind, placebo-controlled trials with clinical endpoints before the are released upon the population”….”

Been tehre dine that, have you? If so please post a study on the double-blind, placebo-controlled trials with a clinical endpoint of the tetanus vaccine, for example. Put some beef in your empty argumentation, if there’s anything at all to be put. There are NO such studies, except one or two for the measles vaccines in the 60s.

But this is a no brainer, because Evidence Based Medicine is a concept born in 1990 while vaccine “science” has been inherited from the 18th century based on the selection biased anecdotal evidence standards in use the. There’s a lot of work before all the vaccination concepts are tested against the standards of modern day EBM. Until then, the safest bet is to avoid these uncertain, dubious and dangerous medical procedures at all.

Kerblozen said: “..the NVIC has compensated 925 people who may have been damaged by vaccines since 1988. The likelihood is that the majority of them were not damaged by vaccines…”

The converse is even more true: most vaccine adverse effects are never reported, and when they are, the longer the time lapse between the procedure and the symptoms the smaller the likelihood of any link being acknowledged. The uncertainty is worsened by the total absence of long-term safety studies for any vaccine.

Even worse, the doctors that administer the vaccines have never had any training to recognise vaccine adverse effects, which are neither acknowledged in their text books not in any later professional training. With this sorry state of affairs all odds plile up against proper diagnosis of vaccine adverse events.

And yet even worse, vaccine producers systematically use coadjuvant medium as “placebo” in their safety studies, which amounts to fraud since the ill effects of the coadjuvants and the medium remain hidden by comparison to themselves.

In short, there is no transparent mechanism to recognise and PREVENT vaccine injury and the data are systematically manipulated. Any attempt to force a parent to vaccinate his child is doomed to be a failure in court, as modern jurisprudence in developed countries has shown.

If so please post a study on the double-blind, placebo-controlled trials with a clinical endpoint of the tetanus vaccine, for example.

This is generally referred to as “World War I.”

Ignore PuddinHead, he is not worth bothering with. He has issues with basic arithmetic and is an expert at cherry picking. See how well he mangles the measles incidence data on this comment: http://shotofprevention.com/2012/07/26/vaccine-questions-answered-the-real-simple-way/#comment-10735

……….. by Putinreloaded………
Chris:

Putinreloaded:

putinreloaded:

For the same reasons it went down every decade since 1900 to 1960 even though no vaccines were available

Excuse me? It went down every decade?
Let us look at those numbers again:
1912 . . . 310.0
1920 . . . 480.5 … um, isn’t that bigger than 310?
1925 . . . 194.3
1930 . . . 340.8… oh, wow that is a bit more isn’t it?
1935 . . . 584.6… is that really less than the previous decade or two?
1940 . . . 220.7
1945 . . . 110.2
1950 . . . 210.1 … so exactly who is 210 less than 110?
1955 . . . 337.9 … oh, look… it is bigger again!
1960 . . . 245.4
The up and down is due to having epidemic years.

Yes, it went down every DECADE:

1920 . . . 480.5
1930 . . . 340.8
1940 . . . 220.7
1950 . . . 210.1

The downtrend is secular (with normal interdecade oscillations) WITHOUT ANY VACCINE!!!!

Please EXPLAIN THAT. What has caused the constant drop in measles BEFORE VACCINES?

And if the incidence/mortality of measles was in a DOWNTREND before vaccines, why is the CONTINUATION of such downtrend attributed to vaccination?

Please show us the study that proves the CONTINUATION of a pervious trend is due to A DIFFERENT CAUSE, namels the vaccines!

…………………………

Been tehre dine that, have you?

Yes I have, but it seems you have not. I thought you might pick tetanus or rabies, as placebo-controlled trials in humans are not usually ethical when death is the endpoint, however they do exist.

If so please post a study on the double-blind, placebo-controlled trials with a clinical endpoint of the tetanus vaccine, for example.

You mean like this one, or this one? Both of these looked at maternal vaccines in preventing tetanus in neonates, both were double-blind placebo-controlled studies, and both looked at death as a clinical endpoint.

There are NO such studies, except one or two for the measles vaccines in the 60s.

How can anyone be so utterly wrong – there are literally thousands of such studies. Just look through the Cochrane reviews, using vaccine and placebo as search terms, or PubMed.

If you spent as much time actually checking your facts as you do spouting easily refuted nonsense you might learn something.

PuddinHead:

A peddler asking for me to be ignored is the best compliment I can expect. Thanks Chris!

And you have been shown to be a liar. Everything you type is a lie.

Grrr. Sorry, my link-posting abilities have been impaired by righteous indignation.

@ Antaeus:

Best verb I’ve heard in awhile:
” half-@ssing”

(Still ignoring the putin troll)

Here’s Dan Omsted’s latest screed at AoA:

http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/09/age-of-autism-weekly-wrap-lacrosse-drinks-brian-deer-koolaid.html#comments

Here’s a classic quote from Dan (I’m not anti-vaccine, I’m for *safe vaccines*) Olmsted,

“The truth, fellow English majors and would-be journalists, is that the story began when vaccines began causing autism, and what keeps the story going is that vaccines keep causing autism. That’s my view, but I’m not alone, and the fact that I and thousands of others hold that view shows that Deer’s presentation should be treated as one side of a controversy, not as a how-to session. The promo — doubtless supplied by Deer or his enablers — acknowledges it’s a real controversy, but then immediately reverts to the idea that some nonsense abroad in the population is perpetuating this ridiculous idea of a vaccine-autism link.”

Notice how the *usual suspects* are posting comments and one commenter asks if The Stalker will be attending Brian Deer’s seminars.

Tune in next week, when the super-secret location of Andy’s *press conference* will be revealed.

I am ignoring PR troll.

Darwy, I did spend the time to do the calculations on awards for vaccine injury vs. numbers of vaccines administered. The latter figure is a guesstimate, as (1) the US doesn’t publish figures on vaccine administration and (2) an unknown percentage of the awards were to adults for vaccines given in adulthood.

1.3 awards per million doses of vaccines.

A commenter pointed out:

I think it’s also worth noting that of the 2,892 claims compensated, nearly half (1,266) were related to the DTP with whole cell Pertussis. Since the DTPwP is no longer used, it would make sense not to consider these awards if using the VICP compensation figures as an indication of safety.

So, there you have it.

Those “trials” don’t stand even the scrutiny of the abstract.

They are placebo-controlled double-blind trials that have a clinical endpoint, which you said did not exist. You are wrong, and now you have to move the goalposts by displaying your ignorance about what constitutes a suitable placebo, a typical antivaxxer tactic. It’s clearly pointless trying to have a sensible discussion with you.

Antaeus said: “… you need to argue WHY the specific decision in question, the decision of whether or not to vaccinate, falls on the side of the line YOU wish it to be on….”

Because:

1. Once you child is proposed for a medical procedure Patient Rights kick in, which is a whole new game. See the Belgian example on the formerly compulsory polio vaccine.

2. In general (in every lawful country) parent’s decisions on a child’s heath can only be overridden by the state in two cases:
a) Immediate danger to the child (emergency situations) – does not apply to a healthy child.
b) Public health interest – only applicable in case of public emergency situations (epidemics) – does not apply to routine vaccination.

Pretty simple, and I didn’t even have to argue on the dangers and ineffectiveness of vaccines. Exemptions aren’ t even necessary for parents, they can build a pretty effective defence using only patient’s rights.

I see puttputt has graced us with her scientific-illiteracy, innumeracy and dishonesty.

1. What is the incidence of the disease my child will be vaccinated against in the region where we live?

2. What’s the chance that my child, who has access to clean water and food, will contract the disease?

3. If he does contract the disease, what’s the chance that he will suffer a serious and possibly permanent illness or death?

If the doctor doesn’t know, get your child and leave.

Correction: If you don’t know the answers to these questions then you have no business making medical decisions for anyone. But jerks like you would be doing physicians a favour by leaving their practices.

Once you get his numbers ask the corresponding questions regarding the vaccine:

1. How can all children need the same vaccines in the same dose? How can a 7-pound baby be given the same dose as a 200-pound man? How can one size possibly fit all?

They’re not. How could you not know this as you delude yourself into thinking that you know more than we about vaccinology? Some vaccines are smaller volume and antigen doses, some are higher antigen concentrations. Do you know why this is?

2. What is the chance of my child suffering a serious adverse reaction and maybe even dying after getting a vaccine or a combination of vaccines? (For some answers, you don’t have to look any further than the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System and the Federal Vaccine Court

Yes you do have to look much further than VAERS since it’s a passive collection system that anyone can enter anything. I’ve seen second and even third hand account entries, have seen double, triple and even quadruplicate entries for the same incident and of course, not all or even most severe entries are related to the vaccine unless you want to now tell us that suicides, car accidents, undiagnosed tumours and dropping children on their heads are now vaccine reactions.

3. Why isn’t there a study of vaccinated versus unvaccinated children?

Your wee brain can’t comprehend this this but not only would an RCT be unethical, you haven’t even given any thought to what you are studying and how many study subjects would be required to perform a study with enough statistical power. But go ahead and tell us what endpoints there are and how many subjects in each group you would need. Oh and find enough parents who would be simultaneously willing to vaccinate or not vaccinate their children.

That’s the first thing you think they would have done. If they are so sure it would prove that vaccines are safe, wouldn’t they have done it by now?

They have been but no study will ever appease your kind who can’t understand the first thing about numbers and science to begin with. No one is trying to appease the lowest common denominator anymore so just go and live your life the way you want and don’t expect to be part of society; you can’t have both.

And why has there never been a study on the safety of the combination of vaccines given to a child at the same time? Here’s why. Because they know what the studies will show.

Not too bright are you. http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2012/09/chalkboard-is-new-comic-sans.html

And that is that the incidence of illness is far less in unvaccinated children. That they are healthier overall than vaccinated children. That none of the ingredients in one vaccine is safe, let alone all the ingredients in the combination of vaccines. And when all these truths come out, their multi-billion-dollar industry will crumble.

How do you make that claim with no evidence? That’s the problem with people like you, you want shortcuts because you’re too stupid and lazy to actually learn. You’ve been left in the dust by denying yourselves or have the inability to understand such important subjects as science, math and overall critical-thinking and now you realise how important they actually are but too late. In fact there is a longitudinal study in the works right now that examines those very questions and we (as in those of us who know how these things work) will have to wait for the data to emerge before drawing any conclusions. Go see if you can find what I’m talking about puttputt. Do your own work for a change.

So the risk of vaccine injury is higher than the incidence of serious consequences for all childhood disease combined. If we take into account the CDC estimatij of 1 out of 10 vaccine injuries reported, we get 340 injuries per million…

I see your innumeracy is showing again.

Soccer mom: “…Your wee brain can’t comprehend this this but not only would an RCT be unethical..:”

With millions of unvaccinated children – and many are already adults – available available in the Western world together with their detailed medical histories ans all… how can a comparison be unethical? What’s lacking any kind ot ethics is NOT to look into these health records to avoid exposing the truth.

Soccer Mom, what are you smoking?

You know what’s inethical? to commercialize pharmacological products whose safety and efficacy is unknown and pretending they’re better than no product at all.

Krebiozen: “…I assume you are going to volunteer for a double-blind trial of tetanus vaccine vs saline,..”

Three quick points:

1. Avoiding placebos can make a trial “ethical”, but also unscientific. The result cannot therefore be used to force the tested product on unconsenting people.

2. Neither Saline nor the flu vaccine “placebo” offer protection against tetanus, so they’re just aas “ethical” and preference for the second can only be explained by the intent to defraud.

3. Admit I was right claiming the lack of palcebo-controlled studies regarding tetanus vaccines and you were wrong.

@ Krebiozen and Lawrence: The odious troll cyberstalked me at LB/RB where it was immediately banned. It has been banned by other science bloggers, as well.

The science blogs that I post on, have all been attacked by trolls…who have been banned repeatedly…and have now resorted to using different ‘nyms and different IP addresses.

O/T (You all know I am not an internet techie).

Would someone please explain in (very) simple terms, how do the sockies change their IP addresses? Do they go to a public place that has Wi-Fi service…or do they use someone else’s computer that is not on their original server?

@lilady, most ISPs (Internet service providers) I believe, have morphing IP addresses or what is called dynamic, which means in the case of dial up, they get a new IP address each time they dial in. In the case of a broadband connection, all it could take to have an IP address changed is to power cycle (turn off and turn back on) the router/modem that connects to their internet signal. However, there is always the possibility they will get the same IP address if that is the next one in line available for connection, unless they connect through a completely different provider to the Internet backbone. That could very well happen by connecting to a WiFi network in their area that isn’t secure, going to the local library or to a coffee shop, etc that offers free WiFi connection. In some cases, where ISPs provide static (permanent IP addresses) to have it changed may require calling said ISP and asking for a new one, but in my experience, unless there is a very convincing reason as to why a change is needed, an ISP won’t just change a static IP address on request. They can also just change ISPs to get a different IP address, but that seems like a lot of trouble to go through just for this, to be perfectly honest and I feel if a person has to resort to those types of measures they may suffer from some kind of mental instability.

lilady,

The odious troll cyberstalked me at LB/RB where it was immediately banned. It has been banned by other science bloggers, as well.

I know, I know, and I’ve had about enough of this, but I’m still a little amused by this weird smorgasbord of idiotic nonsense that a few seconds of fact-checking completely refutes.

@Krebiozen – we’ve established that PR doesn’t believe in Germ Theory & thinks it is a myth….you’re not going to get anywhere with this nut.

Thanks to Bronze Dog and Lara for explaining IP addresses…and the tactics of the ever-morphing sockies.

Think for yourself, for goodness sake.

That appears to be the problem doesn’t it?

most vaccine adverse effects are never reported

Citation needed (I’m not holding my breath…this, like the rest of PR’s statements, is wishful thinking).

An analysis by Wald and Shojania found that only 1.5% of all adverse events result in an incident report, and only 6% of adverse drug events are identified properly.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11510252

There is no reason to conclude that vaccines are THE exception.

This study proves that our statistics concerning mortality resulting from adverse events may be in fact be conservative figures. According to their findings it’s not far fetched to estimate that the actual incident vaccine adverse effects is 10 to 100 times the number of cases acknowledged by the vaccine compensation program.

There is no reason to conclude that vaccines are THE exception.

Wrong; there is every reason to conclude that vaccines are excepted because the survey didn’t even cover vaccines a pre-exposure prophylaxis as opposed to therapeutics given to hospitalised and ambulatory patients. FFS you can’t even read your own cites.

Now you know it from the CDC, shills… take the numbers from the vaccine compensation program and multiply them SUBSTANTIALLY (sic), like by 100, an you’ll be close to the real size of the vaccine injury problem.

Before this thread was hijacked by a lunatic troll, it seemed to have something to do with Brian Deer’s upcoming lectures on Wakefield’s MMR-related fraud.

A question: Given that Deer is advised by both the BMJ legal team (which should know something about issues related to libel) AND a US team that is reportedly among the top 100 law firms in the US, do you suppose that Deer’s willingness to speak publicly about this issue suggests that he is at legal risk?

Another question: Do you suppose that the disgraced former researcher is traveling at his own expense to his press conference in Wisconsin, or will that cost be borne by suckers?

…The significant underreporting of known outcomes, together with the nonspecific nature of most adverse event reports, highlights the limitations of passive surveillance systems in assessing the incidence of vaccine adverse events.” What acrobatics will the vax shills use spin this?

That’s terrible. What we need is an active surveillance system to monitor vaccine adverse events. Maybe we could call it something like The Vaccine Safety Datalinkand include an active surveillance system called Rapid Cycle Analysis. Oh wait, exactly that has been in existence for the past 7 years.

His mind is made up, Krebiozen. Stop trying to confuse the issue with facts.

So we put 1 + 1 together…

the rampant ignorance of VAE aong doctors plus the systemic underreporting of vaccine adverse events EQUALS: Noo meaningful riks/benefit analysis is possible and vaccine safety is overrated by a substantial factor.

Under the present ridiculously uncertain conditions, still the shills have wet dreams of forcing everybody to stretch their arms for their junk… KEEP DREAMING!

Even if vaccine providers on the front lines of sticking needles in people were to cause, observe and report a vaccine adverse reactions to the FDA Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) absolutely nothing would happen.

The FDA collects those reports, puts them in a drawer and forgets about them.

Here is the current body count in VAERs:

– Hepatitis B vaccine 50,275 reports – 979 deaths,
– DTaP vaccine (pertussis, diptheria, tetanus) 50,345 reports – 785 deaths,
– MMR vaccine 58,887 reports – 300 deaths,
– Gardasil vaccine 22,563 reports – 99 deaths.

In this sorry safety landscape no wonder the only way left for vax shills to have an informed parent vaccinate his kids is a gun to their forehead.

If you want to entrust yourself and your children to this Three Blind Mice (see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil) vaccine system – that is certainly your right, but if something goes wrong don’t expect any recognition, sympathy or cure from the medical system. You’ll end up being a statistic in the FDA VAERS system and it will be labeled a coincidence.

do you suppose that Deer’s willingness to speak publicly about this issue suggests that he is at legal risk?

Well put.

Wow, Kreblozen, I’m deeply impressed by that PROJECT.

That’s hilarious, you don’t know what the word “project” means, do you? Anyway, you should be impressed, VSD has been running for 22 years and the Rapid Cycle Analysis for 12, and actively monitors nearly 3% of the American population:

Each week, the rate of adverse events that occurs in people who have received a particular vaccine are compared to the rate of adverse events that occurs in a similar group of people who have not received that vaccine. If the rate of adverse events among vaccinated people is significantly higher than among the comparison group, the vaccine may be associated with an adverse event. To find out if a vaccine truly increases the risk of a particular adverse event, VSD Project scientists conduct a formal epidemiological study.

Can you think of a better way of monitoring vaccine safety?

This study is from 2012

Yes, and it explains exactly why we need an active surveillance system.

the rampant ignorance of VAE aong doctors plus the systemic underreporting of vaccine adverse events EQUALS: Noo meaningful riks/benefit analysis is possible and vaccine safety is overrated by a substantial factor.

I point out that there is an active surveillance system that monitors vaccine adverse events in 8.8 million people and you just ignore it as it doesn’t fit with your dogma? The “present ridiculously uncertain conditions” only exist in your imagination. It’s sad really,

Wait, Narad! You mean he was cherry picking and yet did not even quote or cite the actual paper? A paper that does not seem to be about VAERS, where there are many reports that in the end have nothing to do with the vaccine. Essentially it over reports vaccine injuries. Like some of the example here:

A 7-year-old male patient, born on 21 JUN 2000 was vaccinated with FLUVIRIN (batch no. unknown) on 19 NOV 2007. The patient was killed in an automobile traffic accident on 01 FEB 2008.

…and…

The subject died of multiple system organ failure due to near-drowning, 163 days post-immunization.

Do you suppose that the disgraced former researcher is traveling at his own expense to his press conference in Wisconsin, or will that cost be borne by suckers?

I have little doubt, personally, that the “Justice Fund” is Arranga’s pocket. This level of production costs money, you know. Anyway, My guess is that money is not blown on RJs and it goes AUS-MSP with the chauffeuse based in Eau Claire. Fits with the Somali debacle, to boot.

I was responding to Ms. Walter. Now I have to go scrape the flesh from the Hubbard squash that I picked from my yard and roasted. It will be turned into pie on Thanksgiving.

This is posted on Dan Olmsted’s weekend wrap-up at AoA:

“Those interested in attending the event, here is the complete schedule.

Andy Wakefield press conference 1:00pm at Myrick Park (Gun Club Shelter) across from the north side of the University. LaCrosse Street and Hillview.

Brian Deer presentation at Centennial Hall. This is on the south side of the university off Vine St.

Also, the town will be very chaotic. One of largest Octoberfest celebrations in the country will be taking place along with Homecoming for the university.

Need more information email me. [email protected]

Posted by: Wayne Rohde | September 29, 2012 at 05:42 PM”

Wayne Rohde is the Treasurer of the Canary Party of Minnesota:

http://www.cfboard.state.mn.us/campfin/PCFDetail/PCF41056.html

I am sure adverse effects are under reported on VAERS. For example, one year after the flu shot, I had soreness at the injection site for over a day. This was an adverse effect. I did not report it. These types of adverse effects are not reported because they are so minimal people don’t take the time to report it.

Andy Wakefield press conference 1:00pm at Myrick Park (Gun Club Shelter) across from the north side of the University. LaCrosse Street and Hillview.

Left off “Capacity: 40.”

@ Narad: It looks like an outdoor venue…I *hope* they arranged for *crowd control* staff to be available. Do you think Wayne Rohde will arrange for videotaping?

Try *Googling* his name; he’s also concerned about fluoridated water, genetically-modified food and other woo.

@ Chemmomo: If a parent wants to download the VAERS report form, because a child has had an (extraordinarily very delayed) adverse event…that parent could go to a number of anti-vaccine websites.

The game is afoot! The Dachel bot…is not posting…but sent in the Twyla Ramos bot. Matt Carey has already posted and *someone* we all know and love, has posted as well:

http://lacrossetribune.com/news/local/vaccine-autism-debate-coming-to-la-crosse/article_88fe3612-0a92-11e2-bf97-0019bb2963f4.html

AB2109 has been signed!
http://gov.ca.gov/docs/AB_2109_Signing_Message.pdf

Oh, but wait:

Additionally, I will direct the department to allow for a separate religious exemption on the form. In this way, people whose religious beliefs preclude vaccinations will not be required to seek a health care practitioner’s signature.

Beg pardon?

it makes this already weak bill essentially useless

It’s unclear to me that the executive branch actually has this authority.

Yah, Brown’s boned. The text is clear. I don’t know that he can even direct a change in the form, despite the limited APA exemption in section (d).

Hooray CA!

I’m so sick of hearing how intrusive this bill is from Chiros. Hopeful it will make a difference. It’s frightening to me as a parent how easily exemptions can be obtained right now here.

PS really Brown? An exemption to the exemption form? 😛

My efforts to dispel the crap that is dispensed on AoA…and their spamming on this article appearing in a local newspaper have been *recognized*.

http://lacrossetribune.com/news/local/vaccine-autism-debate-coming-to-la-crosse/article_88fe3612-0a92-11e2-bf97-0019bb2963f4.html

From Dan Omsted’s weekly wrap-up at AoA:

“Yes Jenny and I see the latest load of loathsome lies and Deer induced vomit making rhetoric is also up there now, spewing forth from that well known saloonbar contributor Lilady of LBRB! Should expect it I guess. She really detests Andy because he “talks posh”, that just about sums her up.

Posted by: patricia | September 30, 2012 at 05:25 PM”

Do all these anti-vaxxers belong to the Captain Carrot school of Punctuation?

If the science actually matters to you, then why does this science not matter to you?

Well, direct transmission attempts from the kids seem to have caused some needless aggravation, but I think we’re good to go if called for.

From FB:
“Thinking Moms’ Revolution is looking for a parent going to the Wakefield/Brian Deer event in Lacrosse, WI at 1pm this Thursday October 4th? We’d like you to be our ‘Reporter on the Scene’ for the day. We can’t get anyone out there and it’s too important to miss. Who wants to help us out? If you are interested please pm Alison MacNeil.”

And Nancy Hokkanen says:
“I’ll be attending one or both of Brian Deer’s presentations. If any of you parents have a message you want me to print on a paper handout, email me please.”

Here are some of the questions people are suggesting:

1) Mr. Deer, why did you lie to parents in order to get confidential information about their children?
2) How did you manage to breach confidentially measures and get access to these children’s medical records that Dr. Wakefield and his team didn’t even have access to?
But if there is room, here is one more:
Regarding the parents in the Wakefield study, why did you twist the statements about their children’s health history so badly that the parent’ intended meaning was actively MISrepresented?
Most importantly: Why did you try to destroy a doctor whose work could have profoundly benefited my sons? Why?

Please tell him that he’s one of the most despicable people ever to have existed on the planet Earth. Thanks!

yes I have many questions! why there is no research with unvaccinated babies and kids, I am sure this could prove that unvaccinated kids have less risks to develop Syndromes like Autism, ADHD/ADD! and why many vaccines still contain so many toxins, for example I do not think heavy toxic metals are really necessary as preservatives! if he did a good research about vaccines definitelly he shouldn’t lie to all of us. He let down Dr Wakefield’ research because he definitelly got some kind of dirty gift ! There is no compensation thay may pay all the pain our kids are suffering due high level of toxicity for the vaccines! we know that Big Pharma never care about our health , they care about profit, for this reason they never intend to heal our health, because in this case they can sell more their dangerous drugs and vaccines! Please tell for him if he really trust vaccines to inject Influenza shots in front of everyone!! not only one but many shots since he believe that vaccines are safe!!

As on his visit to meet our family he confirmed he had no medical qualifications ,how can he discuss safety of vaccines.?

Answer 1) For money Answer 2) The Murdocks Rupert and Doug phone tap scandal and computer hacking.

if you don’t mind me asking, why was Deer visiting your family?

Jacob Lawrence Crosby: Deer was interviewing them for a TV documentary (26:59, Selective Hearing)

Nancy can you ask him why he said that he was asked for information by the GMC when it clearly states in the documentary with a letter of proof that it was he who actually approached the GMC and offered them information , i wouls like to see him answer that one

Wayne Rohde: We need to have as many people as possible contact the University of Wisconsin LaCrosse Administration and English Departments demanding that adequate Q&A session be held after Deer’s presentation. People at a PUBLIC University need to be heard.

Jenny Allan: Just ask him who is paying his salary for his 8 year ‘career’ entirely devoted to Wakefield et al demolition!!

@Chris – given that the answers to all of those questions are publicly available & have been for years, it is still surprising that the anti-vaccine cranks can even keep asking them….of course, they don’t seem to ever be able to accept the fact that the man that they adore (Mr. W) is both a crook & a fraud.

@ Broken LInk:

I truly believe that many of AJW’s supporter have serious problems. As a psychologist I’ve been rather shocked at the vitriol ( @ AoA, TMR) being tossed at anyone with whom they disagree.

Personally, I have interacted with members of their brain trust and have not been impressed in the least- except for their startling ability to jump to conclusions unwarranted by any connection to reality. No small feat.

Jake, while he did not directly call me a destroyer of innocent children and supporter of murderous parents, certainly hinted at those attributes. When I questioned him about the POSSIBILITY that his cherished conspiracies were imaginary, he belittled my own education and knowledge of world events. That was rich.

Any questions they dream up are reflections of the mirror world their minds inhabit, not the actual one. These sites -and facebook pages- are utilsed as a substitute for much needed group therapy- however, the mission of these groups is not getting closer to realism but further away.

A little more publicity:

http://news.uwlax.edu/journalist-known-for-investigations-of-fraud-in-vaccine-research-to-speak-at-uw-l/

“And Nancy Hokkanen says:
“I’ll be attending one or both of Brian Deer’s presentations. If any of you parents have a message you want me to print on a paper handout, email me please.””

Mr. Deer: Thank you for your efforts to expose frauds and quacks. Do you think that the wild accusations against you reflect a concerted attempt to protect fraudsters?

@ Tara:

Oh, he treats children.. do tell.
I’ve always thought that he did in some capacity.

Tara, that Wakefield’s paper constituted scientific fraud has been factually established, that he improperly failed to disclose serious financial conflicts of interest has been factually established, that he abandoned professional and ethical standards of practice practice has been factually established, and as a consequence of all of the above had his medical license revoked by Britain’s General Medical Council.

So who do I trust? IBrian Deer, who has simply documented Wakefield’s fraud and misconduct.

@ Chris:

IIRC he was never supposed to treat children to begin with in the UK: he was a researcher there and earlier, was being trained as a transplant surgeon in Canada: don’t know what happened with that.

Denice Walter:

IIRC he was never supposed to treat children to begin with in the UK:

All the more reason to find out if he actually practicing medicine without a license.

@ Denice Walter: I don’t know about Andy being jobless…he’s the Executive Director of the Strategic Autism Initiative:

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/ongoing-investigations-by-dr-david-lewis-refute-fraud-findings-in-dr-andrew-wakefield-case-13

“Dr. Wakefield, executive director of SAI, upon learning of these early results, said, “In a bid to justify their position, the BMJ claim now to have commissioned, and plan to publish, expert analyses rebutting these findings. But they miss the point. BMJ cannot accuse a professional of fraud and then claim that, ‘he just reported the findings he was given, but our new experts 13 years later say those findings were wrong.’ Whether the findings were wrong or not – a dispute between experts – it confirms there was no justification for their original allegations of fraud.”

Didn’t I read some where that his Strategic Autism Initiative receives funding of $100,000/year from Generation Rescue?

How about the big time money he derives from the Autism Media Channel?

http://www.corporationwiki.com/Unknown/Unknown/autism-media-channel-llc/68622800.aspx

“INADEQUATE AND SUPERFICIAL REASONING” – that is what Justice Mitting criticized the U.K. General Medical Council when it been persuaded by Deer’s arguments to strip a team of reputable doctors of their licenses (incl. Dr. John Walker-Smith and Dr. Wakefield). ”

Judge Mitting also wrote: “There is now no respectable body of opinion which supports his hypothesis, that MMR vaccine and autism/enterocolitis are causally linked.”

@ lilady:

I’m sure that 100K USD doesn’t go as far these days as it used to especially when there are two former doctors and three ( I believe) teenaged/ young adult children to provide for. The house is certainly an expense as well. I’m sure that there is an office and assistants- all of which eat up money.
-btw- A & C wear expensive clothes as I have noted. The large car I saw wasn’t purchased with loose change either.

@ Krebiozen:

Right. Do you know anything about the training he had in Canada involving intestinal transplantation surgery? I don’t think he completed that. I can’t recall where I found that.

So what happened in Lacrosse this afternoon? Did Andy and Jake lead the faithful on a march from the gun shelter to Centennial Hall to heckle Brian Deer? Inquiring minds want to know!

“Dr. Wakefield, executive director of SAI, upon learning of these early results, said, “In a bid to justify their position, the BMJ claim now to have commissioned, and plan to publish, expert analyses rebutting these findings. But they miss the point. BMJ cannot accuse a professional of fraud and then claim that, ‘he just reported the findings he was given, but our new experts 13 years later say those findings were wrong.’ Whether the findings were wrong or not – a dispute between experts – it confirms there was no justification for their original allegations of fraud.”

I’m having trouble even understanding his logic. The BMJ does not claim that Wakefield ‘just reported the findings he was given’; they claim, with a great deal of supporting evidence, that he misreported those findings in a way that cannot be simply passed off as “a dispute between experts.”

But then again, this is Fakefield we’re talking about. I’m sure he doesn’t care how many people see him for what he is, as long as he still has that pathetic residue of people who believe every lie that falls from his lips.

-btw-
There is something on Wiki altho’ I think I read it somewhere else originally. U of Toronto, studies with animals, on rejection.
UK: liver transplantation.

Ok, I know others have piled into Tara, but she repeats one lie that gets on my nerves.

obtaining confidential medical records that patients’ doctors couldn’t even access

For the umpteenth time: when Wakefield sued Deer for libel, Deer asked for (and received) the children’s medical records as part of the discovery phase. He did not steal or illegally access them.

But Julian, when do antivaxxers ever bother with factual information?

@DT35

As I posted on the other thread:

Some news and pics have appeared on Facebook regarding the Wakefield “news conference”. I looked at all the pictures Anne Dachel posted and the most people I can see in any one picture is 25 (or 26 counting Anne).

The entire event appears to have taken place outdoors – it was a beautiful day. There are pictures of Wakefield setting up, of his books on display next the podium. Of someone introducing him, then of him speaking, and finally quite a few pics of the faithful having their pictures taken with Wakefield. A pitiful rump indeed. Even Jake couldn’t bother to attend.

@Judith – what a wonderful sentiment, I’m sure your family is proud of the way you turned out.

@ dingo 199:

Thanks for the heads up. I’ve posted several times at the Dachel bot and at John Stone.

I’ll be offline for a bit and join you later later. 🙂

@Judith

I really do like my honey-nut GMO’s !

Oh, dem Golden Rice, so very nice !
Saves childrens’ eyes not once but thrice !

Hi, this is from India – People are so becoming dumb these days, even after wikileaks, Alex Jones, Webster Tarpley, Adrian Salbuchi etc, have exposed many corruptions in the government, they are still putting their faith on the government and big pharma. If people only see those documentary movies in Youtube like, ‘Invisible Empire’, ‘End game’, ‘Fall of the Republic’, ‘Obama deception’, ‘Loose Change’, ‘Drugging our children’ etc

After studying carefully about vaccinations, I came to the conclusion that the risk of any kind of vaccines is greater than getting the disease unvaccinated. Dr. Andrew Wakefield is not alone, there are many others who have exposed the vaccine industry. If you people only read the most comprehensive and convincing antivaccine book of all – ‘Horrors of vaccination exposed’, by Chas Higgins, I am sure you’ll see the truth. Type in Google, ‘Horrors of vaccination exposed’. It is a must read book. Besides, ‘The Poisoned Needle’, ‘Murder by injection’, ‘Evidence of Harm’, ‘Hidden dangers in polio vaccine’, ‘Saying no to vaccines’, ‘Blood Poisoners’, ‘A shot in the dark’, ‘What the pharmaceutical industries don’t want you to know about vaccines’, ‘Against compulsory vaccination’, ‘Vaccine nation’, ‘Raising a vaccine free child’. — If youread these books, you can see there is a big deception in the vaccine industry. Also, search in Google:
vaccination books (english), vactruth, Dr. Rebecca Carley, Dr. Nancy Turner Banks, Dr. Rima Laibow etc.

“The Drugging of Our Children” and “Vaccine Nation” are films by Gary Null; Dr Banks works from a Mexican border town and has the dubious distinction of making her name first amongst hiv/aids denialists before becoming a vocal anti-vaccinationist; Rima Laibow is part of the Natural Solutions Foundation’s brain trust along with the infamous Mr Stubblebine ( of “Men Who Stare at Goats” fame) and some lawyer, seeking work.

I think that the other recommendations are self-explanatory. I’m frankly surprised that “Fear of the Invisible” has not made the list.

Sanga,

People are so becoming dumb these days

That’s true, and many of them display their dumbness by making moronic videos they put on YouTube and writing imbecilic books they self publish. Some of them have websites where they collect discarded medical gibberish, and claim it is the suppressed truth, whale.to for example. It may seem incredible that the material you mention is simply nonsense, but I’m afraid its true.

For example, let’s take a look at, ‘Horrors of vaccination exposed’, which you describe as “the most comprehensive and convincing antivaccine book of all”. A little Googling reveals the book was written in 1920 by a man with no medical training or background at all. Charles M. Higgins (1854-1929) “was a prominent ink manufacturer and creator of Higgins American India Ink. He was the head of the Charles M. Higgins Company, manufacturers of the drawing ink he invented” (from the Brooklyn Historical Society). Do you really think this is a reliable source of information on vaccines in the 21st century? Even if any of the complaints about vaccines in the book were accurate, vaccines have immeasurably improved since then. A large part of the book is taken up by complaints that the smallpox vaccine was ineffective. Since smallpox has since been eradicated, mainly by vaccination, I think we can safely ignore Higgins’ rants.

Ok, I saw a mistake in my previous post, should be……It is highly reasonable to suspect that animal cells in vaccines could be harmful in humans……

Check out this one, which is posted in the comments….
http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/about/

Dr Abigail Abbott
Posted October 11, 2010 at 11:43 PM

I am an Osteopath in South Australia. I have been actively researching the Vaccination debate for many years. I have made many observations in my practice, including neurological/liver/bowel reactions to Vaccinations. I have a solid group of unvaccinated babies/kids in my practice, so comparison is relatively easy.

I had a new patient today, a 10 month old baby- the mother was totally pro vaccine, had no issues with it. I asked if she noticed any reactions, she announced – “She had the Rotavirus vaccine, the next day her poo was green and slimy, the day after she was bleeding from the anus”……it amazed me that parents are so indoctrinated to be pro vaccine they ignore massive red flags like this.

My question is where do I go from here? How can I support your organization or contribute articles etc?

Thanks for your time

Dr Abigail Abbott, BSc(OstSc) BSc(Clin Sc)MAOA

@Sanga:

It is highly reasonable to suspect that animal cells in vaccines could be harmful in humans

Except the vaccines are processed and any animal cells in vaccines are likely to be biologically inert, so it’s actually pretty stupid to suspect that.

After studying carefully about vaccinations, I came to the conclusion that the risk of any kind of vaccines is greater than getting the disease unvaccinated.

Oh sure, if you think looking $h!t up on Google for a few hours constitutes “studying carefully about vaccines”. Also, you’re wrong. Vaccines, like any other medical product, are tested and monitored thoroughly. We know that negative events from vaccines are vanishingly rare while the diseases they guard against can kill.
You aren’t the first anti-vaxxer to come here and make a series of easily debunked claims only to be told you’re spouting guff and I doubt you’ll be the last.

Sanga,
You are being deceived by deranged people (like Clifford Miller who runs the Child Health Safety website) who spread easily disproven lies. We have large clinical trials and active surveillance programs following millions of people to ensure that vaccines are safe, and that vaccinated people do not suffer from illnesses more than the unvaccinated.

Strange – the first part of the link to the Rapid Cycle Analysis works. I so often see claims that VAERS is the only system in place for monitoring vaccine safety that I think the RCA needs to be more widely publicized:

RCA data come from participating managed care organizations that include more than 8.8 million people annually, representing nearly 3% of the United States population.

Sanga:

You don’t need to be a rocket scientist or super qualified person to figure out Vaccines are damaging our kids, just a simple reasoning and common sense would do.

Well, isn’t fortunate that I have a bachelor of science in aerospace engineering. I did work for a time on a missile program before switching to an airplane program. Ah, yes, that good ol’ common sense and reasoning tells me that youtube links are useless, writings from places that sell supplements and blathering from the insane lying duo of Miller and Stone at Childhealthsafety can be safely ignored.

Sanga, your “education” in vaccines is like the guy who thinks Beowolf is a real history showing dinosaurs lived with humans in Europe.

“woos and cries”

Excellent.

@Sanga

Here’s a little info about formaldehyde that you might be interested in. You could also read more here, or over at Just the Vax. All three have plenty of links to actual science, rather than conspiracy-mongering supplement pushers.

I just knew that “Sanga” was going to pull the *sanitation* gambit about decreasing incidence and prevalence of vaccine-preventable-diseases.

“I have seen first hand in my locality that unvaccinated kids are healthy because many of the diseases that were used to be a serious threat in the past are not a threat anymore because of improved living conditions and sanitation. (Of course, the vaccine industries still see it as a serious threat )”

So Sanga…

-Which childhood vaccines protect against diseases that are spread via the fecal-oral route?

-Which childhood vaccines protect against diseases that are spread via airborne/droplet or exposure to oral secretions routes?

-Which childhood vaccines protect against diseases that are spread via exposure to infected blood and/or through sexual contact routes?

By the way, your reference to Dr. Rebecca Carley has me *intrigued*. In the past I spoke to her, many times, on the telephone…before she became a naturopathy practitioner. I found that she was NOT a reliable source of science information. Do tell us what you find her advice to be correct.
(Cue in…”vaccines are weapons of mass destruction”)

Since when is SV40 a chemical?

Look at these parents who are sure that their kids are harmed by the vaccines in an Autism Conference, they are too significant to ignore.

There are also people who are sure that the Earth is 6000 years old. There are others who are sure that waving your hands in a specific pattern can heal people. Some people are sure that the moon landing is a hoax.

Are these people “too significant to ignore”? How many people does it take for you to believe something is true?

Those of us who live in the real world prefer evidence-based conclusions rather than blindly accepting what people say they are sure about.

Sanga,
I’m just curious, are you at all concerned about the heavy metals contained in Ayurvedic medicines? In this study the amount of mercury in some Ayurvedic medicines is 28,200 micrograms per gram, giving a daily dose of over 1,000 micrograms, which is often recommended for children. How do you think this compares to the amount of mercury there used to be in vaccines?

Oh I see Sanga is citing “Child Health Safety”. This is operated by Clifford Miller, Andrew Wakefield’s lawyer. Miller is a filthy wretch of a man who offers false information and relentless defamation behind the screen of anonymity.

However, I can prove that the site is published by him because his contacts betrayed to me his IP information. They were just disgusted by his conduct.

Can you imagine someone claiming to speak for children’s health and safety who doesn’t even have the personal integrity to identify himself and make clear to anyone reading his information that it is generated by nothing more than an embittered buffoon?

Of course, nobody of moderate intelligence would be fooled by his material, but of course not everyone is of moderate intelligence, and it’s these that Clifford Miller preys upon.

Wow Sanga, Gish Gallop much?

I do want to call it misinformation. Because it is. Have any evidence to the contrary?

Call it spectacularly stupid misinformation if you want, but again let me share these links…..

FTFY. Argument by YouTube with a garnish of Mike Adams and Jeff Rense cuts exactly zero ice.

@ Sanga: How about answering the questions I posed to you above, about the *relationship* of improved sanitation and the decrease/elimination of diseases through vaccination?

-Which childhood vaccines protect against diseases that are spread via the fecal-oral route?

-Which childhood vaccines protect against diseases that are spread via airborne/droplet or exposure to oral secretions routes?

-Which childhood vaccines protect against diseases that are spread via exposure to infected blood and/or through sexual contact routes?

About Clifford Miller. He has in the past, teamed up with John D. Stone. Stone recently follows the carpet-bombing Dachel bot with utterly dumb posts on blogs. Stone NEVER responds to “lilady” when I post back at him.

http://wellknowntrolls.wordpress.com/2010/06/25/clifford-g-miller/

Okay– it’s misinformation.

Have you got any actual evidence?

By the way, I noticed you haven’t answered the question of whether or not you believe that the people claiming the earth is less than 6000 years old and all living creatures descend from breeding pairs who survived a global catastrophic flood aboard a single large wooden vessel or people claiming to have been abducted by extraterrestrials for forced medical procedures aboard faster than light spacecraft are too significant to ignore. Are they?

@ Sanga: You missed this YouTube interview with Dr. Rebecca Carley about “Obamacare”.

She says she is a “Medical Doctor”. Is she?

She says her son was “brain damaged by vaccinations”. Was he?

Why don’t you contact her to find out how her son is doing (he’s about 18 years old now)?

This part of the thread is going to look weird if ‘Sanga’ turns out to be one of the usual trolls under a new nym, and is deleted for sockpuppetry.

“I have arrived at the inevitable conclusion that vaccination is an organised criminal enterprise dressed up as disease promotion. As far as I am concerned, the entire vaccine industry needs to be shut down for good to keep us and our children safe.”

(Translation)

I’m clueless about immunology, bacteriology, virology and the epidemiology of vaccine-preventable-diseases.

I’ve been hitting the bottle again and I’m seeing pink elephants and vaccine conspiracies.

@Erwin Alber: YAAAAAWWWWWNNNN.
You’re like a CD player stuck on repeat, Erwin. Time to play a different tune.