Andrew Wakefield wants a “live public televised debate.” Oh, goody.

Public debates around issues like this serve no purpose but to give a platform for those with no evidence or proof the opportunity to BS their way through the proceedings – since they have the latitude to not engage the actual facts, but instead rely on emotional appeals, diversions and parlor tricks to attempt to sway the audience that their “side” has the answers or at least some kind of legitimacy (I mean, seriously, watch US Presidential Debates – playing fast and loose with facts is a friggin’ rite of passage there).

Wakefield wants a debate because he already lost the Scientific Debate – he had his opportunity to defend the Science & instead, he turned and ran away.

This is exactly the same stunt he pulled when he filed his lawsuit in Texas – he doesn’t need to win, just by “showing up” he is able to continue to burnish his image with the anti-vax crowd that he is a “martyr” to the cause.

And in this case, when his call for a debate is ignored, he plays the “martyr” card again…..it is a no lose situation for him, unfortunately. Fortunately for us, more and more people are realizing just how much of a fool and charlatan he really is – so all he has left is the small cadre of anti-vax nuts that rally around him…..

You’re still blaming the measles outbreak on this waste of breath? Come on…you are supposed to be a scientist. If it was Wakefield’s fault, then the MMR rates should be low. They’re the highest they’ve been in 14 years.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-20510525

Instead of looking for someone to blame, making the Wakefields and the McCarthys of the world into bogeymen to frighten children at night, instead do a little critical thinking and determine WHY the outbreak occurred and is spreading. It’s obviously not vaccine refusal. So what is it? Vaccine failure? New strain? Waning immunity?

Couldn’t agree more with Mr Deer. Unfortunately history tells us that being proven wrong does not preclude being used as reference again, and agin.

Case in point, while almost everybody in the Bush administration has been proven wrong, if not outright deceitful (dare I say the L-word?), regarding the outlandish claims towards Iraq, you will find they nevertheless are invited to make the same nonsensical (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/28/ap-iran-nuclear-bomb) claims about Iran. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/09/iran?INTCMP=SRCH, http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/04/resist-netanyahu-iran-hawks-push?INTCMP=SRCH )

The same can be said about any topic involving ideologues forcing their misguided views upon the world (AGW, evolution, even the financial world). For reasons that are beyond my comprehension -cue the obligatory psychiattrist- repeated incompetence never leads to lack of trust in the general population.

What do these propagandists have to do before we stop listening to them?

Just A Thought might consider thinking about how low vaccine uptake rates are in the area affected by the current measles outbreak in Wales, before trying to obfuscate the issue over how high rates are elsewhere.

The Wakefield-inspired MMR scare caused vaccine uptake to decline under 80% in some areas, even while it remained higher elsewhere in the U.K.

“We estimate that 88.6% of children born in 2000-2 had received MMR by the age of 3 and a further 2.7% had received all three of the single antigen vaccines. Although coverage is relatively high, it remains lower than the estimated level required to ensure herd immunity (over 95%), leaving a substantial proportion of children susceptible to avoidable infection susceptible to avoidable infection.

http://www.bmj.com/content/336/7647/754

Just a Thought,

You’re still blaming the measles outbreak on this waste of breath? Come on…you are supposed to be a scientist. If it was Wakefield’s fault, then the MMR rates should be low. They’re the highest they’ve been in 14 years.

Did you even read the article you linked to? “MMR vaccine coverage has reached its highest level in 14 years in young children” (my emphasis). It’s the children who didn’t get the MMR 15 years ago, because of the Wakefield scare, who are the victims of these outbreaks. Twit.

That orchestra of tiny violin players must be getting really worn out playing “Fakefield’s Lament” over and over again.

Fakers doesn’t really want to debate anybody, this is a shiny object for what’s left of his deluded fan club. When no one takes him up on it, he can play the old “they’re afraid of the truth!” gambit.

“Mr. Wakefield called for the suspension of the MMR vaccine in favor of single measles, mumps and rubella vaccines. He didn’t really explain why the single vaccine would be more safe in his mind”

Agree–this is something I’ve never understood. Even IF Wakefield’s research had been legitimate, and “autistic enterocolitis” was induced by measles-vaccine virus in the gut (which–just to make crystal clear–has been thoroughly disproven)–why would anyone think measles vaccine without mumps and rubella would be any safer whatsoever? Wakefield’s paper never addressed the mumps and rubella–it was always about the measles.

@ Mu

I think Wakefield should have a public debate – with Jake. MMR vs. thimerosal – the important question finally answered.

Good idea! In fact, they should have a tournament with enny McCarthy and Rob Schneider as the moderators/sideshow act. Bob Sears and Jay Gordon could debate “too many too soon” and the winners would go to a final debate to determine what the One True Cause of vaccine damage is.

I actually watched the entire charade the other night.. the things I do for the cause!

AJW’s presentation so fits in with our other current discussion about the AoA crowd’s remarks about our most esteemed and gracious host- so much is dependent upon what the speaker looks and sounds like, not upon what is said. I’ve also commented about the developmental significance of this phenomenon.

Andy is master of artificiality here and as Lawrence notes, in debates, facts can be secondary to appearances.

We can all gag on AJW’s feigned sincerity I suppose. He’s a SALESMAN and like other woo-meisters, he has to sell himself as well as products ( in his case, probably books, lectures and services), thus each appearance is a finely honed, rehearsed performance complete with direct gazes into the camera and measured, calming, melodious tones.

Believe me, there are studies that minutely dissect exactly what a ‘winning’ performance entails and it’s not just psychologists who are interested in this but business people and politicians as well. I could tell you stories about various businessmen in my life and their efforts to please customers and mirrors.

Listen carefully to alt media prevaricators and you’ll hear the same cadences and same quiet determination as that which AJW displays: it’s also quite common in television advertisement, telling you how much you really need their spectacular, unequivocably essential products.

In case you missed it the other night, I called botox and hair tinting on Andy- not that there’s anything wrong with those procedures- BUT it shows to what lengths he’ll go in order to make an impression on the faithful.

Putting up a good front for the superficialistas.

I remember headdesking over one crank who wanted public debates because “there’s nowhere to hide.” Don’t remember if it was a Creationist or an anti-vaxxer. I had to point out the obvious: Public verbal debates allow cranks to hide behind the clock, whether they fill the time with Gish Gallops or if their opponent has to pause to look up something.

Written debates with no time limits don’t have that huge hiding spot.

Perhaps Wakefield could rent another “shed in a park” for his self-styled *debate*?

http://lacrossetribune.com/news/opinion/michael-winfrey-former-doctor-was-not-invited-to-uw-l/article_77a7ee6a-13ea-11e2-9389-001a4bcf887a.html

“October 12, 2012 12:15 am • By Michael Winfrey | Arcadia”

“I chaired the Distinguished Lectures in the Life Sciences committee that brought Brian Deer to the University of Wisconsin-La Crosse earlier this month.

The purpose of this series is to bring in a scientist who has made exceptional contributions to the life sciences. For the first time, we invited an award—winning journalist rather than a scientist.

This year we invited a journalist who exposed a grievous scientific fraud by a former British doctor. The former doctor, who was found guilty of this fraud by two prestigious medical journals and the British General Medical Council, invited himself and complained that he was not invited to debate Deer.

We did this because Deer’s investigations reversed an alarming trend of decreased vaccination of children in the United States and worldwide. Deer’s exposure of fraud also provides a clear example of the consequences of fraudulent science and the challenges faced by a public increasingly inundated with alarmist studies.

It’s unfortunate that the Tribune chose to promote this as a “debate” in its Sept. 30 article, which led to the misconception that the university was hosting a debate between two opposing views.

This series does not organize debates. We invite distinguished scientists (or in this case a journalist) whose findings have not only had a significant impact on science and society but also whose work is widely accepted by the scientific community.

There are many topics worthy of debates. Whether a vaccine is the cause of autism is not among them.”

There is always the “Autism Media Channel” that is owned by Wakefield and Polly Tommey, which could tape the “debate” and broadcast it.

The question still remains who will Andy debate? I suggest that the foremost experts in childhood vaccines, Dr. Jay and Dr. Bob debate Andy. “Debate” moderator could be Jake Crosby (Because of his *excellent* debating skills and his public speaking extraordinary “eloquence” .)

So when is Andy going to publish his 200 page “report” on the internet? Is he still waiting for his lawyers to approve the context?

I saw Duane Gish give a lecture (without an opponent) and I saw his colleague Henry Morris in debate with a professor from Indiana University — both of these events in the 1980s. It’s true (as I have written on RI previously) that Gish was a remarkable liar, going from one misrepresentation to another at the speed of sound. He also managed to twist some unremarkable scientific facts into superficially damning critiques of science based conclusions.

Overall, I would characterize the two performances as something akin to what a fictional lawyer does in a book about a trial — try to raise unreasonable doubt and get away with it.

One thing that became more and more obvious about the Gish performance was that he didn’t actually discuss the observations and calculations underlying evolution. Instead, he mentioned other people, implying that they were experts on one thing or another, and pointing obliquely at their arguments and conclusions.

In other words, it was a long exercise in argument from authority, rather than argument from facts and logic.

Morris, by the way, was a little more on point, probably because there was someone there to refute him, but when he trotted out an argument about the laws of thermodynamics pointing to decreasing information (ie: devolution rather than evolution), the opposition pretty much dropped the ball. There is an easy refutation to this argument that actually explains a little about how evolution works at the microbial level, is convincing, and involves the slight imperfection in the DNA replication system.

In other words, guys like Gish and Morris didn’t really debate in the sense that a true debate competition would demand. You could expect the anti-vaccine side to go with the same technique of argument from authority, just as the global warming denialists do nowadays. The anti vaccines folks will trot out numerous studies and papers that bear tangentially on the topic, one or two studies (such as the Wakefield paper in Lancet) that the field now rejects but the television audience never read, and a lot of hand waving about caring about the damaged children as opposed to the cold hearted scientists who want to test their experimental poisons on an innocent population etc etc.

The technique that commenters use on RI, namely to demand that the opposition prove its own case rather than merely take pot shots at the current scientific view, is not all that applicable to a televised debate, just as it isn’t always applicable when prosecuting a defendant in front of a jury. The anti-vaccine people don’t need to prove that vaccines cause injuries (although they will pound on the temporary side effects seen in some children from one or two vaccines), they just need to raise doubt that vaccines are one hundred point zero zero zero percent safe for all children of all ages.

The counter argument based on truth is that vaccines are pretty good most of the time, and for some truly horrendous diseases such as diptheria, smallpox, polio, rabies, etc, they have been miraculous. That won’t satisfy a few people who are convinced based on emotional need that their child is disabled due to an injection.

One way around this would be to create a panel of perhaps 4 or 5 real scientists and invite Wakefield to join them, making sure that Wakefield was speaker number 3 out of the 5. Then, Wakefield can try to play at Rumpole, but instead of getting to rig things his way, they will be set up to reveal the truth in advance of his comments, and allow for rebuttal afterwards.

@Just A Thought

Re: The Swansea Measles Outbreak

The Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health estimate that there are currently 1 million unprotected children of secondary school age (11-18) in the UK as a result of Wakefield’s self-serving antics.

The fact that the Swansea outbreak of (to date) c. 850 infections has been contained (so far) to that area is nigh on miraculous, but with the new school semester just begun, the problem could get a LOT worse.

When asked about the effect of his paper on vaccine uptake rates at the GMC hearing,

Do you have any observations to make about your position in relation to the apparent juxtaposition of the paper, the press conference, and a reduction in take-up rates?

Andrew Wakefield’s response stated that the withdrawl of the Urabe strain MMR vaccine caused some drop in uptake and, further,

. I have no doubt that that decline was exacerbated by the publication of this paper.

Day 55 of the GMC hearing.
http://wakefieldgmctranscripts.blogspot.com/2012/02/day-55-gmc-fitness-to-practice-hearing.html

But now we are to believe his paper and his statements had no effect?

By the way, I happened on that while searching to see how Mr. Wakefield approached the Urabe strain mumps component question during the GMC hearing. This response contains his only mention of Urabe. Interesting, since this is supposedly such a major defense now.

Matt Carey:

This response contains his only mention of Urabe. Interesting, since this is supposedly such a major defense now.

Which is bizarre because Wakefield did not post in his Lancet article which of the three UK MMR vaccines the kids had. Plus if the issue was the Urabe mumps component, then there would not have been an American child among the twelve (the American MMR has always had Jeryl Lynn mumps strain). Nor would there have been UK children born after 1991, since both UK MMR vaccines with Urabe were removed in 1992.

It sounds like a bit of back peddling.

well, could it be that the age cohort that is most effected just happens to be the one right around the time that Wakefield received all of his press?

Rather easily confirmed by comparing the uptake data with the current incidence data.

It sickens me that there was someone commenting on the BBC website the other day, on the very story about the measles outbreak, that the whole problem was down to ineffective MMR vaccines, and that they all should have been allowed the single measles vaccine and then everything would have been fine and that incidentally Wakefield was right all along.

When pushed he insisted that the paper was pulled from the Lancet and St. Andy was struck from the medical register because they didn’t like his techniques, not because he was wrong in any way. Any day now the groundbreaking research coming out of the US that proved it all was going to be published.

When pushed further a lot of shouting happened, but no links to research or names of papers or even researchers, only complaints that I wasn’t a medical professional and clearly hadn’t seen all the ‘new evidence’.

These people are everywhere, and they are the reason all these kids are suffering and ending up in hosptial. They should be ashamed of themselves but instead they just keep on with the same old carp.

Thank you Krebiozen, your first link was really useful and I hadn’t realised I may not develop the characteristic rash. With regards to the immunoglobulin, to be honest I have no idea whether that would work or not – I’m immunosuppressed on the basis of having a liver transplant (well, three actually…), so I’m not sure whether injecting antibodies should be combined with immunosuppressants. It seems that one might cancel out the other, to a certain extent. (Starting to wish I had a degree in biology or medicine, since it would be really useful in analysing my own healthcare these days.) However it is definitely nice to know that there’s options available if I were to contract measles; it seems that the benefit would outweigh the risk in those situations. Thanks 🙂

OT : but when are candy@ssed alt media dissections of SBM, sceptics, militant atheists and rampant materialists EVER truly OT @ RI, I ask you?**

Taped inteview with Rupert Sheldrake on today’s Gary Null Show, Progressive Radio Network – about 24-25 minutes in- to end; @ 39 minutes in, said supporters of SBM, sceptics, militant atheists and materialists including our own esteemed host ( as DG) are put under the microscope. It seems that now Sheldrake is investigating the investigators or suchlike. Quite an unseemly bunch, we’re told.

Quake in your boots, sceptics, militant atheists and materialists!
I’m quaking in mine!***

** neatly demonstrating what those who debate alt med prevaricators are up against!
*** not really.

Also, Liz, avoid all adolescents. The best of luck to you.

Corrention: I meant to state Immunoglobulin shots (not IGG shots)

@Narad I’m having trouble interpreting the data in the pages you’ve cited. I’d appreciate help from Ren or others.

I read “Just a Thought” as being just as critical and disdainful of Dr. Wakefield and his findings as everyone else here is. Clearly no one else saw him/her that way.

I look forward to your interpretation of the data Narad has directed me to.

Thanks.

Jay

Also, Liz, avoid all adolescents. The best of luck to you.

Always good advice.

@ Dr Jay:

I read JAT as disliking Wakefield but NOT attributing the current situation to him. Most of us probably see him as – at the very least- partially to blame.

Dr. Jay:

Narad I’m having trouble interpreting the data in the pages you’ve cited. I’d appreciate help from Ren or others.

That is another reason why you should not be writing about vaccines, immunology and telling future parents “how to avoid autism.” And, no, I will not help you.

elburto,

Anyone got any decent at-home protocols for someone coming into a house with someone immune compromised and unvaccinated, if there’s a risk they may have been exposed during the day? Or, is it just a case of crossing fingers and hoping that it passes over?

Measles is a bastard as it’s contagious for a few days before it shows any distinctive symptoms – it starts with coughing and sneezing just like a cold. I would talk to your GP about prophylactic immunoglobulins, seriously. I assume the other mrs elburto is fully vaccinated, so she should be safe if she washes her hands thoroughly as soon as she walks through the door, before touching you or anything you might touch. Make any visitors wash their hands and wear a mask – I’m sure your partner could pick some disposable ones up either at work (isn’t she a nurse?) or I believe chemists stock them. It might seem a bit OTT but it’s not worth risking your life to avoid seeming paranoid.

I’m lost for words about the kid with the liver transplant contracting measles; all I can say is I’m glad he pulled through. With figures heading for the 1000 mark, we will almost certainly see deaths.

Kreb – I’m gutted about Lennox. That kid has had a lifetime of pain and hospitals already. His mam is such a lovely woman, and this is just one more shovel full of guano heaped on her.

Dr Jay – surely you’re up to interpreting datasets? Given that you’ve expounded on various theories over the years, written books, given speeches etc., about VPDs , you’ve surely had plenty of experience with reading and examining epidemiological data?

@lilady – I think we’ve seen that many anti-vaxxers believe that immunocompromised people are a detriment to the gene pool. To a lot of them measles is just a natural disinfectant.

Thanks for the link lilady. As we all know, the second measles vaccine is not really a “booster” dose like the repeated DTaP shots, but instead an acknowledgment that about 10% of vaccine recipients do not acquire immunity after the first MMR. Of course there’s no way of knowing the titers of the group who received only one vaccine. Or, for that matter, knowing the titers of those who received both doses. That would be valuable.

Yes, lilady, I’ve been giving more MMR vaccines than usual.

Chris, I believe you also can’t interpret the data so you were stuck with the answer you’ve given me. Anyone else, please?

Jay

I.e. I think these are boosters.

It’s both actually, a booster and to capture those who didn’t respond to the first (which is ~5%). The epidemiology of measles after the uptake of the second dose was sufficiently high speaks for itself.

Dr. Jay, with a high uptake of two doses of MMR, we have eliminated indigenous measles and rubella cases. A four year old with a protective titre may not necessarily have one at ten. But that’s what “vaccine friendly” doctors like you and Dr. Bob omit to tell your patients, or are simply ignorant of that.

Correction because of fading memory: I remember because my oldest got it at age ten or eleven, but my other two were aged about nine and five.

It’s obviously not vaccine refusal. So what is it? Vaccine failure? New strain? Waning immunity?

No, it’s vaccine refusal. You need a high level of herd immunity for measles. It’s infectious as I’ll get out. Remember, vaccine uptake is not the same as immunity. So, if you need 90% of immunity against measles to have herd immunity, but, say 92% uptake, and 3% of those fail, then you’re down to 89% immunity, which is no herd immunity.

New strain? Ha! Measles is incredibly stable when it comes to mutations. They have to really coax it in the lab to mutate.

Waning immunity? I covered that in my response to Dr. Jay.

@sciencemom: Actually, the MMR vaccine probably does confer lifelong immunity when it takes. http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/vaccinations/Pages/mmr-questions-answers.aspx#lifetimeimmunity

@Chris: The datasets are not clear at all. If you can interpret them, please do.

Rene’, what I said was there was nothing in the articles cited mentioning the titers in the different groups studied. And unlike pertactin negative B. pertussis, I’m unaware of new measles strains. Perhaps better diagnosis and more robust reporting of measles cases have created apparent increase in cases. Just as is alleged to have occurred with the huge increase in ASD diagnoses.

Jay

So it’s better reporting?

Perhaps better diagnosis and more robust reporting of measles cases have created apparent increase in cases. Just as is alleged to have occurred with the huge increase in ASD diagnoses.

With all due respect, Dr. Jay, put a sock in it.

We have objective, lab-based methods of diagnosing measles. Kids with fever and a rash are not diagnosed as having measles until blood tests or viral cultures (or PCR) are done. This is not the same with autism, AND YOU GODDAMN KNOW IT. There is no spectrum of measles. There IS a spectrum of autism. Children die from measles. Children don’t die from autism.

For you to continue this mocking of something so serious is an affront to everything that medicine and public health stand for. Have you no shame?

Rene’, no mockery was intended. Measles doesn’t always get reported any more many other childhood diseases do. With all due respect, I’m guessing that far from every case of measles had laboratory confirmation, and you damn well know that.

“However, due to the high numbers of notifications reported during an outbreak, it is possible that not all clinically-diagnosed cases will undergo subsequent laboratory testing. It is probable that not all cases notified on the basis of clinical symptoms will be due to measles infection and this maybe true especially for notifications from outside the outbreak area.”

http://www.wales.nhs.uk/sitesplus/888/page/66389

My comment has been wiped out three times now.

With all due respect, Rene’, measles and other childhood diseases are reported at higher rates during and outbreak and you damn well know that!

” Usually, a notification of measles is laboratory confirmed (or not) by sending a sample for virological testing. However, due to the high numbers of notifications reported during an outbreak, it is possible that not all clinically-diagnosed cases will undergo subsequent laboratory testing. It is probable that not all cases notified on the basis of clinical symptoms will be due to measles infection and this maybe true especially for notifications from outside the outbreak area.”

http://www.wales.nhs.uk/sitesplus/888/page/66389

My comment has been wiped out three times now.

With all due respect, Rene’, measles and other childhood diseases are reported at higher rates during and outbreak and you damn well know that!

” Usually, a notification of measles is laboratory confirmed (or not) by sending a sample for virological testing. However, due to the high numbers of notifications reported during an outbreak, it is possible that not all clinically-diagnosed cases will undergo subsequent laboratory testing. It is probable that not all cases notified on the basis of clinical symptoms will be due to measles infection and this maybe true especially for notifications from outside the outbreak area.”

http://www.wales.nhs.uk/sitesplus/888/page/66389

And, by the way, your “tetchiness” and anger about infectious diseases is only exceeded by my parallel feeling about autism spectrum disorders and their affect on millions of families.

And, by the way, Rene’, your “tetchiness” and anger about infectious diseases is only exceeded by my parallel feeling about autism spectrum disorders and their affect on millions of families.

Except that autism has killed no one directly, you know, like measles does. And I’ve met some great people with autism that have done great things, unlike the dead people who died from measles or the one little girl I met with SSPE who also eventually died. Oh, and measles is preventable with a safe and effective vaccine that has been shown NOT to cause autism. Unlike autism, which, at the risk of hurting your bottom line in book sales, is not preventable.

Repeat after me, Dr. Jay, “Measles is not autism and autism is not measles.” Autism is also not whooping cough, chickenpox, or any of the other “marvelous” things that people you know and are very close to have openly stated are not really that bad.

So help me if you bring out the “you don’t have a kid with autism” crap…

I don’t believe you’ve seen me tetchy.

Are you seriously– seriously?????– comparing a deadly, often-maiming, hugely contagious virus to an ASD?

‘…Wakefield’s whiney wankfest…’
Thanks Orac, that is one of the funnier and better uses of alliteration that I have seen recently. I am going to use that phrase the next time I’m discussing Wakers and his current attemps of self aggrandizement through self promotion.

[blink]

I’ve dealt with a lot of trolls in my day, elsewhere, and I thought I could keep my civility here despite the quacks that show up in the comments pages but…

Sid, are you just that stupid?

“Mild”?! “Almost never kills”!? One in a thousand infected people in the developed world die if infected. One in a hundred infected in third world countries die. That’s not ‘almost never.’ Not by a long shot. Even when it doesn’t kill, it can lead to complications including but not limited to encephalitis (actual brain damage), hearing loss, and eye damage. Is that desirable?

Antivaccinationists seem to like to talk only about fatality rate without ever bringing up what survivors have to go through. Spinal polio almost never killed–it ‘just’ crippled. But if you lot had your way decades ago, it would still be endemic to the US.

Yes, ARD, Robert Schecter is that stupid. I refuse to address him with his ‘nym, because he is not Sidney Offit, the author.

Chris:

Thanks. I’ll keep his real name in mind for future reference. It’s just…

God damn.

I’ve seen people who claim atomic bombs are a Jewish hoax. I’ve seen people deny (or even defend) the Holocaust or Generalplan Ost. I’ve seen all sorts of madness and nonsense across the internet. But, somehow, none have ever managed to sound as ignorant as Schecter did in comment #79.

Trust me, ARD, you have not seen anything when it comes to science denial if you have just started with the anti-vax folks. It is amazing how they manage to warp reality when it comes to infectious diseases.

#79 I’m sure that is of great comfort to the handful of parents whose children it does kill.

I doubt Roald Dahl missed his daughter much at all, really. After all, he had four others. What’s a child or two, more or less.

#45

“Anyone got any decent at-home protocols for someone coming into a house with someone immune compromised and unvaccinated, if there’s a risk they may have been exposed during the day? Or, is it just a case of crossing fingers and hoping that it passes over?”

Gosh, I don’t know. Weasels or flamethrower? So many choices. Decisions, decisions…

Wakefield’s own lawyer formally submitted to the UK General Medical Council panel that Wakefield caused the downturn in vaccination. On Day 130 of the hearing, 7 April 2009, Kieran Coonan QC submitted on Wakefield’s behalf:

“Dr Wakefield was, as you know, a senior author of the Lancet paper, and publication of the paper, together with the commentary and the observations that he made at the press briefing, has led on the evidence that you have received to a downturn, or at least did turn to a downturn, in vaccination rates for the MMR vaccine. That is a fact. And it is a fact, even though Dr Wakefield may have been justified in publishing the paper; even though he held honest views about the safety of the MMR vaccine, and even though he advocated the use of a single vaccine. The fact of the linkage between the paper and the press briefing and the downturn is a fact, and it is not difficult to imagine that in some quarters he would be heavily criticised for that fact.”

Rumtopf, yes, he is a ” stinking arsehole.” He is a real AoA jerk.

It is only me being charitable that I would think someone was pretending to be him. If someone is doing that to make him look worse: knock it off. Otherwise, it is eerily keeping with his mode of operation.

@ Brian Deer: Here is the exact quote from Wakefield’s lawyer as transcribed and recorded on on the official GMC F-T-P hearing on the 130 th day of testimony:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?pid=explorer&srcid=0B9Ek8hRNlhrbNTk4MWI5YjktMDU3MS00MWU1LWFiZjQtZjA3MzI0ZDM0NTBl&docid=fed84590199f04700659d5e458ec8166|ec0cd452a2d9538b0bb9bc5ad6ffcf79&chan=EgAAACI5FCJgC%2BC9sL4p4c8qrLE9DiN7ca8zOjMGPx2nghcs&a=v&rel=zip;z26;Day+130.DOC

“Dr Wakefield was, as you know, a senior author of the Lancet paper, and publication of the paper, together with the commentary and the observations that he made at the press briefing, has led on the evidence that you have received towith a downturn, or at least did turn to a downturn, in vaccination rates for the MMR vaccine. That is a fact. And it is a fact, even though Dr Wakefield may have been justified in publishing the paper; even though he held honest views about the safety of the MMR vaccine, and even though he advocated the use of a single vaccine. The fact of the linkage between the paper and the press briefing and the downturn is a fact, and it is not difficult to imagine that in some quarters he would be heavily criticised for that fact.”

And here we are coming up with quote after quote of Wakefield associating MMR with the onset of autism, which right in the GMC hearing, Wakefield is on record disaparaging the triple jab MMR vaccine (based on his junk science) and in order to promote his own alternative single jab substitute to convince parents that MMR vaccine=bad and his substitute measles vaccine=good…just to really ream the public who he scared about MMR vaccine.

S’matter…wasn’t the huge bundle of dough he collected from Richard Barr, enough for him or did he, like all charlatans, wish to wring every Pound Sterling out of his marks, buy selling them useless untested vaccines?

Julian, I think you nailed it.
Dr Jay, are you really suggesting that health professionals in Wales are too thick to diagnose measles? That somehow they just magically learned to do so? Ti’n llawn cachu.

Dr Jay, are you really suggesting that health professionals in Wales are too thick to diagnose measles?

He’s claiming that everything that is diagnosed without PCR is presumptively not wild measles. (Whether he would settle for IgM is an open question.) It’s a level of ideation that I’ve recently seen trotted out by the wetheads at the NPPoUC group on FB.

It’s worth repeating that the area where this outbreak has centred on is also the distribution area of one local newspaper that pushed the MMR scare particularly hard:

http://jech.bmj.com/content/54/6/473.full

“In Wales COVER statistics for the 14 trusts that provide community services are published quarterly by the Welsh Unit of the Public Health Laboratory Service Communicable Diseases Surveillance Centre. The distribution area of the SWEP (Swansea, Neath, Port Talbot and Llanelli) matches the localities served by two of these trusts. Coverage for the quarter July to September 1998 was compared with the same quarter a year previously in both the distribution area of the SWEP and the rest of Wales.

Uptake declined by 13.6% (95% confidence intervals 10.9% to 16.2%) in the distribution area of the SWEP and by 2.4% (95% confidence intervals 1.4% to 5.5%) in the rest of Wales. Before the campaign, uptake was significantly higher in the distribution area of the paper compared with the rest of Wales (difference 1.7%, 95% confidence intervals 0.1% to 3.4%). After the start of the campaign, uptake was significantly lower in the distribution area of the paper compared with the rest of Wales (difference −9.4%, 95% confidence intervals −7.1% to −11.7%) (table 1).”

It’s the equivalent of a smoking gun with Andrew Wakefield’s fingerprints on it.

@ Chris, ha ha, avoiding all adolescents is easier said than done – I’m at a UK university campus which happens to be quite close to the Welsh border. (Luckily for me, it’s finals week, so I do get to spend a lot of time alone in my room working.)

@ lilady, thanks for the HPA guidelines. It’s ok, I was aware of the whole “no live vaccines” thing, as it makes the shortlist of things you’re absolutely not meant to do post-transplant: “No tattoos, no live vaccines, don’t get pregnant, and no grapefruit”. (Unfortunately telling me not to do things tends to make me want to do them more.) I did have the full set of childhood vaccines recommended up til the age of 3 1/2, which included an MMR and an MR, since I only became immunosuppressed after 3 1/2. But I don’t really know whether that will confer much immunity given that I’m now on “industrial strength immunosuppression”, to quote one of my consultants.

@ Krebiozen, I was on ciclosporin for about twelve years, and it’s amazing stuff (even if it does taste foul and make you really hairy). I assume it was largely because of Roy Calne’s work that it became feasible to do liver transplants in paediatric patients in the early 90’s, without which I would not be alive (I was one of Birmingham Children’s patients, fairly soon after their liver unit opened).

Liz,

@ Krebiozen, I was on ciclosporin for about twelve years, and it’s amazing stuff (even if it does taste foul and make you really hairy). I assume it was largely because of Roy Calne’s work that it became feasible to do liver transplants in paediatric patients in the early 90′s, without which I would not be alive (I was one of Birmingham Children’s patients, fairly soon after their liver unit opened).

I worked in the clinical biochemistry laboratory, and we did blood work on the transplanted pigs and dogs (sorry animal-lovers), and later on the first human patients. They used to do the liver transplants at night, and we would have two people on-call (which was fun) doing bloods continually during surgery and phoning the results to theatre ASAP. Some of my colleagues developed a method for measuring blood levels of cyclosporin A (it appears to have changed its name to “ciclosporin” recently; for reasons I don’t understand).

At that time only very sick patients were operated on, because it was experimental, so success rates were low. As I’m sure you are aware, one effect of liver failure is a lack of clotting factors, so these patients bled a lot during surgery, which used to seriously upset the blood bank staff who would watch half their stock disappear in one night. I had the opportunity to observe Prof. Calne doing the exciting bits of one liver transplant (the new liver going in) which was fascinating.

You are too young to remember Ben Hardwick, who was the youngest child to get a liver transplant at Addenbrookes back in 1984. My son was in and out of Addenbrookes at the time, so I saw a lot of Ben and his mother, but sadly Ben died a few months after his transplant. They are very much more successful now – you are living proof of that.

Baloney, Wakefield, baloney. Your original work absolutely attacks any form of measles vaccine, because your faked BS hack-fest of a paper claims that measles virus from the vaccine is what causes “autistic enterocolitis”. And you were TOTALLY planning on introducing a different vaccine, so when you wrote that paper, you did not want people to go to a single measles vaccine. You only switched tactics when you realized your “vaccine” was complete junk, or more accurately when your investors did. That’s when you switched to making money off of litigation. That you have subsequently tried to rewrite history by claiming you weren’t opposed to measles vaccination is irrelevant..

Though hey, if measles vaccine is actually okay, I guess we can thank Wakefield for finally admitting his paper was bogus. 😛 Basically, he’s trying to say “it’s not my fault they believed what I claimed!” What a putrescent repulsive excuse for humanity. Love to see him come back to the Twin Cities for that televised debate, because there is a contingent of Somali mothers here that are eager to give him a piece of their minds — they also believed him, did not vaccinate their children, and then watched them get hospitalized with measles. (Somalis are at much higher risk from measles because some of them return to Africa to visit relatives, and measles is endemic there.) They want to give him a piece of their minds, and I’d love to see that.

Right, measles is so mild…

I would argue with that, having had measles in the 1960s- not that I can remember much about it. I was supposed to get a vaccine but came down with the illness before my appointment date. I guess I now have the vaunted ‘natural’ immunity that alt med folk rave about.

Because I have many, much older cousins, I’ve been able to piece together what happened: I missed 3-4 weeks of school, didn’t eat much and my relatives were extremely worried about me, including those who lived very far away.
I was a good student, always reading, writing and doing art work- there was great concern that the illness might damage my vision and other abilities. Adults worried about that, I’m told.

All I remember was being confined to a darkened room with a radio and being forbidden to do anything. For a few weeks.

So I didn’t die or become blind ( I just need sunglasses most of the time and prefer foggy environments to sunny ones). I did manage to get through various schools and universities and developed my abilities, working in advertising as well as in counselling and assisting non-profits.

Let’s just suppose the same thing happened today to some unfortunate child:
they could suffer worse physical consequences than I did;
if their family wasn’t as well off as mine was, and both parents needed to work or if it were a single parent, without assistance- who would stay with the child?
For 3 or 4 weeks.
What if other siblings were infected?

I’m over 50: I have never been ill or more than a few days at a time, except for measles. I have never had a condition that affected my abilities or faculties, except measles.

Even if you don’t care a shred for what the ill child and distressed family experience, you’d have to agree that thousands ill with this condition would cost a great deal of money with medical costs and lost wages.

First death of a measles sufferer has been confirmed, although it is too early to say if measles was cause of death.

Krebiozen, we may only get a biscuit, but I gave blood about two weeks ago and it was an orange Club biscuit. Totally worth it.

@ Chris:

I venture that AoA will not be discussing his death any time soon. They seem to not notice things like that.

He’s a bit old to be part of the Wakefield-induced low MMR uptake cohort. As Rebecca pointed out, he wouldn’t have been exposed to measles at all if vaccination uptake had remained at pre-Wakefield levels.

@#111:
On a lighter note, when you transplant dogs or pigs, where do get the blood products from?
There are dog blood banks as well, actually. Some friends of mine have been involved in greyhound rescue, and one of their dogs actually set a local record for blood donation, helping save the lives of several other dogs in the process.

Granted, blood types for dogs are actually more complex than blood types for humans, which doesn’t help matters, but there are still ‘universal donors’ like this greyhound. Vets love them.

Ren (a bit belatedly):

If I may inform the doctor, there are plenty of studies where seroconversion is studied after one, two, or three MMR rounds. Yes, three… Sometimes there is an outbreak in a population that has two MMR doses but hasn’t seen measles or mumps (immunologically) in about 15+ years, so a third dose is given.

I had it *four* times. Twice as a child, once more during a rubella outbreak when I was in high school, and again after the birth of my first child due to inadequate rubella titers. I seem not to have become autistic. 😉

Regarding blood donation, I’ve signed up for a blood drive my church is doing in a few weeks. There’s usually a choice of prepackaged snacks. I always try and go for the Snackwells; I love those things.

Just a reminder that even when post-vaccination measles antibody titers have waned, in most cases there will still be an anamnestic response on exposure to the virus.

Impact of measles in France. [Rev Infect Dis. 1983 May-Jun] –

Although measles vaccine has been licensed since 1968, immunization against measles has not met with much success in France, partly because the disease is no longer feared. The level of vaccination coverage appears to be less than 20%.

A multicenter, retrospective hospital survey revealed that 1,157 patients with measles were hospitalized during a 30-month period in five areas (total population, 4.2 million). Analysis of the preliminary results of this survey and of available national data showed an incidence of 5.6-7.5 cases per 1,000 population; a hospitalization rate of one per 10,000; a DEATH RATE of 0.56 per 1 million

1-500. I don’t think so.

http://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications/Publications/SUR-Monthly-measles-and-rubella-Aug-2012.pdf

…10 427 cases during the last 12-month period from July 2011 to June 2012.

Although ten cases were complicated by acute measles encephalitis, over the last 12 months there have
been no measles-related deaths.

Matt, surely you realize cases are underreported

@Matt – don’t worry about Sid. As long as he’s not infected, he doesn’t care how many people suffer and die…..

When you indulge in black-and-white thinking patterns, dichotomous variables like ‘life/ death” are the only ones considered to be meaningful.

“Nasty, nasty people” is being too kind, Mr.
I would be much harsher.

Lawrence,

I know that. anyone who says “Hospitalization data is meaningless” is a fool. The 5000 people in the hospital didn’t find it meaningless.

“If you are healthy, you don’t have anything to worry about”.

Sure, if you are healthy you aren’t infected with measles.

My kid is a medically fragile disabled child. You can imagine what I think of people who write off the lives of this population. Hell, I don’t need to relate to my own family. People who basically consider the weak to be expendable are worthy of contempt.

@Sid – so are you now claiming that the epidemic in France was “worse” than what is reported? That doesn’t sound like you…

I’ve been at this way to long to have my feelings hurt by fools. The “hurt feelings” debate ploy is extremely transparent.

The funny thing is that when you edited the abstract, you showed that you know that you are misrepresenting the facts.

So now you will do a lot of hand waving about under reporting and try to create a smoke screen to cover your tracks. Garden variety vaccine rejectionist actions. Have a nice weekend.

Don’t get your bowels in an uproar guys…you’re debating Bob Schecter, the smarmy smug “fire science” expert.

Bob hates kids who are different from his child….little brown babies in California, too young to be vaccinated, who died from pertussis and black children in Africa and kids who are medically fragile, who die from measles.

How’s the radio career working out for ya, Offal?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15647434

“Why do parents buy chickenpox lollies?

Some parents object to what they see as the dictatorial nature of the US vaccine programme, which, they argue, leaves them little choice over what is being put into their children’s bodies.

Campaigner Robert Schecter, who runs the Facebook group Proud Parents of Unvaccinated Children, claims the pharmaceutical industry is a key driving force behind the growth in childhood immunisation in the US.

By no means is it a conspiracy, but there are vested interests working together,” he says.

A self-styled libertarian, who ensured his own daughter did not receive any vaccinations, he dismisses public health officials as “paternalistic do-gooders” who “get satisfaction out of what they believe to be helping people” when in fact they are doing no such thing.

Vaccination sceptics like Mr Schecter can produce reams of statistics which they claim show public health officials have exaggerated the seriousness of diseases and “covered-up” safety concerns.

They even dismiss figures from the US Centre for Disease Control and Prevention that cases of measles tripled last year, pointing to the fact that were there still only 220 cases and no deaths. The disease is also on the rise in Europe, where there were 29,000 cases and nine deaths in the first seven months of 2011…”

Offal debated Dr. William Schaffner, who whupped his sorry a$$ on a BBC late night radio program.

https://medicine.mc.vanderbilt.edu/node/451

(Offal defended parents right to chose if they wanted to immunize their kids and defended parents who share chicken pox-infected lollipops).

“On both occasions, the usual billious voices started up, really gloating over the fact that the children who died (of measles) were immunocompromised.”

“And, I mean gloating. These nasty, nasty people were almost saying that these kids were somehow inferior beings, or even that it was their own fault”

Brian, the corollary to this eugenics throwback attitude is the belief that they innately (or by doing the Right Things – eating superfoods, taking supplements, purging toxins etc.) possess a superior immune system and thus do not have to be concerned with germs that afflict people inferior to them.

This attitude gets whacked in the head on occasion (as when young healthy people with vigorous immune systems are hit hard by infections which trigger deleterious hyper-immune reactions (as in the case of H1N1 influenza), but its proponents never seem to learn.

Jay said “@Bacon: That seven-year-old note on my website (stating that he does not give MMR shots) is out of date.”

It’s dated 2010, reiterating a position you apparently took in 2006. So much for a “seven-year-old note”.

It’d be fun to be a fly on the wall in Jay’s office, listening to parents arguing with him over the need to protect their kids via immunization (and schooling Jay on things he should have learned during his medical training).

Orac, been a long day here. A cookie sounds good.

Bacon, I learn things from the parents in my practice all the time.

Jay

@ Dangerous Bacon: Dr. Jay is a liar, when he posted this at you…

“@Bacon: That seven-year-old note on my website is out of date. Thanks for calling it to my attention. I don’t recommend the MMR unless travel increases the risks and parents want the vaccine. I do give the vaccine. If I were practicing in Wales right now, I would recommend the MMR vaccine.”

I’ve quoted Dr. Jay’s outrageous statements about vaccines numerous times, when he comes posting here.

Here again for the umpteenth time, Jay’s opinion about Prevnar vaccine..

“The Prevnar vaccine is too new for me to recommend. The number of cases of Pneumococcal ear infections which could be prevented is very small and the number of cases of meningitis prevented is also small. I have no quarrel with doctors who recommend the shot or with parents who choose to get it. I have very strong objections to advertising this immunization to the general public on television. I don’t think enough information can be disseminated in 60 seconds.”

How long does a vaccine have to be licensed, for you to “recommend it” Jay?

Prevnar 7 valent vaccine first became available 13 years ago and Prevnar 13 valent vaccine replaced Prevnar 7 in 2010.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/vis/downloads/vis-pcv.pdf

I have never believed that we have proven that the MMR causes autism and also refuse to believe that it’s a harmless vaccine that can’t trigger ASD in genetically susceptible children.

Dr. Jay, if you had an ounce of self-respect and decency, you’d stay quiet. What you write here is in many ways opposed to what you’ve said before:

“Vaccines, as they are presently formulated, are toxic enough to cause autism and other neuro-immune disorders, very simply.”

So, in that statement at the “Green Our Vaccines” rally, did you not mean to include the MMR in “vaccines”?

Seriously, Dr. Jay, you’re embarrassing yourself.

Actually Ren, Dr. Jay had a lot to say about measles vaccine at the “Green Our Vaccines” rally. He was the keynote speaker:

http://recoveringnicholas.com/2008/06/04/green-our-vaccines-rally-washington-dc/

” Dr. Jay Gordon spoke first asking the crowd the following questions….

“Before your child got vaccinated, did your child sit down with you and explain vaccine dosages and timings and side effects?” NO!

‘When your child was diagnosed after vaccination, you doctor owed you a hug and an apology, did you get that hug?” NO!

“The Insurance Industry should have given you an even bigger hug… They should have said you know, “Thank you for paying your premiums for all of these years. Dont worry about the cost. Dont worry about the money. You take care of your child and your family. We got the cost.” Did you get a hug from your insurance company?” NO!

”The American Academy of Pediatrics, the CDC, the FDA, they all owed you hugs. Are they protecting us? ” NO! ”from a large overdose of vaccinations given too soon”

The Pharmaceutical Industry; of course all of them wanted to sit down with you and talk to you, they wanted to know how we could make things safer, they wanted your opinion, is that right?” NO! “Did they hug you?” NO!

“Vaccines as they are presently formulated are toxic enough to cause autism and other neuro-immune disorders. It’s very simple. Are we anti-vaccine? No, we’re not. Trying to label us as anti-vaccine is a trick. It allows them to try to get rid of us more easily. The doctors fear we’ll give and the parents might accept vaccines that were much safer, tested far better and given much slower.

“If we had a burning house with children in danger, we wouldnt sit outside and discuss it, we’d get the children out of the house. We have a dangerous situation right now and we have to act. The time for debate is over. We have to do something.”

“Measles..measles, there have been 65 cases of confirmed measles in the United States this year. 65 cases in a country of 300 million people. Measles has been in the NY Times and every other newspaper 20 times for the past months. If I had a press agent that good, I would have been the Beatles!”

“The Time Magazine article, I think that the Time Magazine article was a spoof of responsible journalism. If you read it, it led off by talking about the Hib vaccine and then they called Hib a virus. Hib is a bacteria, that’s a big difference. Anything after that that this writer wrote is invalid. She didn’t know what she was talking about. It’s as if you had picked up a story about cooking and they meant to talk about chocolate chip cookies and they started talking about chicken. She was irresponsible. We have to focus on the risks.”

“I’ve been a pediatrician in private practice for nearly 30 years. I take care of children and families every day of my life. I have no special expertise in Autism like the great Dr. Kartzinel. I am not an infectious disease expert either. My expertise is this…. I abandoned the routine vaccine schedule in 1980, 28 years ago. I did not stop giving vaccines. I did begin looking for a safer way to vaccinate, right now I give very few vaccines. I’ve watched children reactions over the first few minutes, over the first few hours… I’ve followed their health over weeks, months and years. I get countless… hundreds of emails, 2nd opinion consultations, phone calls about children harmed by vaccines. I get dozens of phone calls from doctors who really didn’t want to talk to me. Many of them don’t really like me, but they knew that I would listen to their stories about strange and tragic vaccine reactions that they never expected to see. The current vaccine schedule does create immunity to many diseases, this could be a good thing. But I am afraid that the way we are doing this, the way we’re vaccinating, might actually diminish a child’s overall health. On what do I base this?? on nearly 30 years of watching and then most importantly, listening to you! Listening to parents. Of all the strange things, more than any medical school class, more than any resident training, more than any book I’ve ever read, I’ve learned more from you. No one knows your child better than you do.”

“Here’s something unusual and a little bit interesting.. this is the only area of medicine, vaccines are the only area of medicine where we deny side effects. If I give you amoxicillin for a urinary tract infection, I do it sincerely. I think you need it. I apologize about the rash, the diarrhea, the cramps, and the inevitable yeast infection but I really think you need that amoxicillin, and I really think it will work. But 6 vaccines given to your 10 pound daughter. Doctors tell you before the shots that there are no side effects. And that the seizures, maybe the autism that results, are not proven and are undoubtedly coincidental. Coincidental, do you believe that?” NO!

”Your child is a real living breathing unique special beloved person. Autism is not a coincidence and your child is not a coincidence. I’ve seen children change from vibrant talking kids to silent distant children after vaccination. And then I’ve watched parents work their tails off; a gluten-free, casein free diet, supplements, hours of therapy and bring back their child’s language and their child’s smiles. I’ve watched it happen. Vaccines and the current schedule can cause autism and hard-working loving parents can help children recover.”

“Something else interesting, something else amazing. This is the only area of medicine, vaccination, where your 6 week old baby boy and I, a 180 pound man get the same dose of medication. A polio vaccine, the same dose. Does anybody believe this is the best way to vaccinate?” NO!

“When I get a dose of mercury in a flu shot, well I wouldn’t, if I were to get a dose of mercury in a flu shot, or aluminum, that’s bad enough, but does anybody believe that that same amount of aluminum or that same amount of mercury think those things are safe for a 25 pound toddler? Aluminum! There is still mercury in many common vaccines, but aluminum, there’s enough aluminum in there to cause harm. The FDA puts a ceiling, a limit, of about 50 micrograms a day. Aluminum irritates cells, it irritates brain cells. Maybe some of you are aware of aluminum because of the possible and the plausable connection to Alzheimers Disease.”

lilady: I still like a lot of parts of that speech. Not all of it. It was five years ago and I really don’t like the tone I used. Too strident and rabble-rousing for my tastes now. By the way, I was not the “keynote speaker.” As I recall, RFK Jr. was there as were politicians, Jenny McC and Jim. Read my thoughts about the Prevnar vaccine out loud. Many new medications are not found to be either dangerous or non-efficacious for a long time. Get the Prevnar 13 or don’t. Just don’t ask me to like a vaccine who’s predecessor may have created more a more dangerous bacterial situation than previously existed. How long before we’ll need a PCV 27?

Ren: Vaccine manufacturers have no product liability and no incentive to improve vaccines. The was we administer vaccines triggers neuroimmune problems in susceptible children.

Bacon: Do you take anti-malarial meds every day or only when you’re in a high risk area? I would recommend vaccines for people in higher risk situations.

I’m curious, are you all so rigid and dogmatic that you really can’t understand how someone could change opinions and practices? Maybe you are. Can you really do so little reading that you don’t know that vaccines can cause side effects which must be take seriously and factored into the decisions we all make?

Very few of you above have actual patients you care for. I do.

Jay

Vaccine manufacturers have no product liability and no incentive to improve vaccines. The was we administer vaccines triggers neuroimmune problems in susceptible children.

A – You can thank the anti-vaccine forces themselves for that. You know, Barb Loe Fisher. Read up on her actions in creating the vaccine court and the compensation tables. They thought that it was going to be a walk in the park because all they needed was 50% and a feather of evidence. Talk about getting what you wished for.

B – “The was we administer vaccines triggers neuroimmune problems in susceptible children.” Yeah, I have a response for that… What?

Very few of you above have actual patients you care for. I do.

Well, I do take care of populations. Does that count? Of course it doesn’t. I’m just a miserable little insect.

@Ren – both of my boys are fully vaccinated, on schedule & are well ahead of the curve – perhaps I should start a group that asserts that vaccines cause over-achievement?

Jay Gordon,

You wrote:

@Bacon: That seven-year-old note on my website is out of date. Thanks for calling it to my attention. I don’t recommend the MMR unless travel increases the risks and parents want the vaccine. I do give the vaccine. If I were practicing in Wales right now, I would recommend the MMR vaccine.

This doesn’t read as sensible to me. Vaccines are intended to be preventative medicine, given to ensure that ideally outbreaks don’t happen or, if they do, they are limited/contained (assuming a high enough vaccination rate for the so-called ‘herd’ effects to be effective).

Suggesting that the vaccine be only be given after an outbreak has started is contrary to the point of the vaccines. (Surely.)

It’s compounded by that measles has one of the higher R0 rates of the more common illnesses.

(My apologies if this has already been addressed – I’ve been away from this thread too long to read it all!)

@ Dr. Jay: Which parts of that speech do you like? Which parts of that speech do you not like?

“Read my thoughts about the Prevnar vaccine out loud. Many new medications are not found to be either dangerous or non-efficacious for a long time. Get the Prevnar 13 or don’t. Just don’t ask me to like a vaccine who’s predecessor may have created more a more dangerous bacterial situation than previously existed. How long before we’ll need a PCV 27?”

You really don’t know anything about PIDs (S. Pneumonaie Invasive Diseases), do you? How did the introduction of Prevnar 7 valent vaccine (create) “a more dangerous bacterial situation”? You do know, don’t you, that once Prevnar 7 was introduce in 2000 and provided protection against the 7 most prevalent circulating serotypes of S. Pneumoniae bacteria, that additional serotypes among the more than 90 serotypes of PID (“serotype substitution”), would come to the fore and then be diagnosed as causing PIDs?

Here, the Policy Statement And Recommendations from the AAP about 13 valent Pneumococcal Vaccine and the 23 valent S. Pneuomoniae vaccine.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/126/1/186.full

From the American Academy of Pediatrics

Policy Statement

Recommendations for the Prevention of Streptococcus pneumoniae Infections in Infants and Children: Use of 13-Valent Pneumococcal Conjugate Vaccine (PCV13) and Pneumococcal Polysaccharide Vaccine (PPSV23)

Committee on Infectious Diseases

Read the Policy Statement and Recommendations carefully Dr. Jay, to learn how “serotype substitution” after the introduction of Prevnar 7 brought forth other serotypes (“serotype substitution”) that caused IPDs.

Abstract

Routine use of the 7-valent pneumococcal conjugate vaccine (PCV7), available since 2000, has resulted in a dramatic reduction in the incidence of invasive pneumococcal disease (IPD) attributable to serotypes of Streptococcus pneumoniae contained in the vaccine. However, IPD caused by nonvaccine pneumococcal serotypes has increased, and nonvaccine serotypes are now responsible for the majority of the remaining cases of IPD occurring in children. A 13-valent pneumococcal conjugate vaccine has been licensed by the US Food and Drug Administration, which, in addition to the 7 serotypes included in the original PCV7, contains the 6 pneumococcal serotypes responsible for 63% of IPD cases now occurring in children younger than 5 years. Because of the expanded coverage provided by PCV13, it will replace PCV7. This statement provides recommendations for (1) the transition from PCV7 to PCV13; (2) the routine use of PCV13 for healthy children and children with an underlying medical condition that increases the risk of IPD; (3) a supplemental dose of PCV13 for (a) healthy children 14 through 59 months of age who have completed the PCV7 series and (b) children 14 through 71 months of age with an underlying medical condition that increases the risk of IPD who have completed the PCV7 series; (4) “catch-up” immunization for children behind schedule; and (5) PCV13 for certain children at high risk from 6 through 18 years of age. In addition, recommendations for the use of pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccine for children at high risk of IPD are also updated….”

Did the introduction of vaccines to protect children against IPDs in 2000 and 2010, cause S. Pneumoniae serotypes to become penicillin-resistant, Dr. Jay…or did the over-prescribing of penicillin for otitis media by doctors, cause that penicillin resistance?

Dr. Jay:

I don’t recommend the MMR unless travel increases the risks and parents want the vaccine.

So he insists children in his practice depend on herd immunity to protect themselves from measles, mumps and rubella. It is ironic that wealthy parents who pay him cash (he does not deal with health insurance) are required to be parasites on society by getting a free ride on the high immunity from vaccines in their community.

What a hypocrite. I respect him even less.

Why doesn’t Dr. Jay just give up his membership in the American Academy of Pediatrics? He doesn’t follow the Standards of Care regarding immunizations and totally ignores Policy Statements about specific vaccinations and incorporating/implementing strategies in his practice for timely and complete vaccinations, according to the CDC and AAP Recommended Childhood Vaccine Schedule.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/125/6/1295.full

While Dr. Jay doesn’t tell parents to “hide in the herd”, like Dr. Bob Sears does…he encourages parents who get all their information about vaccines from mommy blogs to become “free riders”.

Dr Gordon @143:
@elburto: You have serious anger management issues and serious social skills problems. There is nothing funny about an outbreak of measles. You’re [sic] suggesting this crosses a line.

I went back and re-read Elburto’s comment #107 —

@Jay and Bobby Schlecter- I’m glad this is all so funny

Now YMMD but for me the general tone here is “withering sarcasm”. As for a remote diagnosis of “serious social skills problems”, are you sure you want to play psychologist on the internet?

It could be that I am wrong, for my own sense of humour leaves much to be desired, and often I laugh at things that other people find un-funny, and vice versa [“laugh” used here in a broad sense to encompass “transient smile-like twitch”]. I am always looking to educate myself on this human business of “humour”. With this in mind, perhaps I can ask one or two questions:

— When you wrote two years ago that measles was “an organism […] which has lived in relative symbiosis with hominids for millions of years”, was that a joke? Or were you genuinely unaware that measles jumped species to humankind about a thousand years ago?

— When in the course of an earlier jihad, you endorsed Gisele Bundchen’s view that breastfeeding should be legally mandated, was that a joke? An ironic parody of your view the vaccination program is an unwarranted heavy-handed extension of government powers into private life? Or had you not noticed the contrast?

— When you complained that “one can’t have a public debate of losing “weaker” humans to measles to benefit stronger humans”. was that a joke? I prefer to think that you were pulling the legs of all the serious straight-faced pedants at RI, rather than espousing eugenics.

TIA.

herr doktor bimler, your third link doesn’t work for me. I don’t want anyone to miss Dr. Gordon’s eloquent defense of measles as a benefit to humanity:

https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2011/03/24/dr-jay-and-argumentum-ad-populum/#comment-140766

Dr. Gordon says now, “If I were practicing in Wales right now, I would recommend the MMR vaccine.”

I wonder why. After all, according to Dr. Gordon, “the measles virus and the infection it creates in strong healthy humans probably improves human health.” Why would he deprive the Welsh young people of this benefit?

Moreover, according to Dr. Gordon, “An extremely very small percentage of children who get measles will get complications and a far smaller percentage of these would suffer larger complications”. Why bother with vaccination when only an extremely small percentage suffer any harm? It’s just like getting a cold, right?

Besides, measles has “lived in relative symbiosis with hominids for millions of years”, so it can’t be eradicated and it would be dangerous to try, and anyway, “The infection may have beneficial effects for humans.”

Just a Thought,

I could return the insults, but I won’t; I find myself reasonably intelligent and capable of expressing myself legibly without resorting to schoolyard taunts.

You mean schoolboy taunts like, ” Come on…you are supposed to be a scientist”? Or, “do a little critical thinking”?
You came here making assertions that a few seconds thought or even just reading the article you linked to would reveal are simply foolish, such as “If it was Wakefield’s fault, then the MMR rates should be low. They’re the highest they’ve been in 14 years” when the MMR rates in those who are getting measles are low, while it is those in younger children are higher. Then you demonstrated your own ignorance and lack of critical thinking by asking us to, “determine WHY the outbreak occurred and is spreading”. We know why the outbreak occurred, it clearly is clearly due to vaccine refusal that occurred during the vaccine scare that Wakefield caused, not vaccine failure, a new strain or waning immunity.

I feel quite justified in calling someone who makes such foolish statements a twit.

@chris lipthorpe

You do know a debate requires two valid points to an issue, right?

In this case, there is no valid point to mr wakefield’s point, since there is no proof that his views are valid and it has already been established that mr wakefield had willingly committed fraud.

As for your second assertion, [citation needed].

Argh error –

luckily for him it was Fifth Disease, not measles, but unluckily for me. blah blah…

JAT – Please feel free to apply any of my schoolgirl insults to yourself. Pro-tip : your DNFTT advice about Wankfield is wrong. As a strategy DNFTT doesn’t work, it’s well known.

I’ve heard this before. I vaguely remeber something about it. And it turned out to be incorrect. Please give more details.

This is the False Claims Act qui tam suit by former Merck employees Krahling and Wlochowski. It came after a two-year FDA investigation that basically found nothing, and the DOJ declined to join the case. The assertion is that serial passage of the Jeryl Lynn strain resulted in decreased efficacy and that Merck used defective testing to inflate the results. It has nothing whatever to do with safety.

I actually looked at the docket last week; IIRC, the last development was in February, and the item currently on the table is a motion to dismiss. One might note that the FCA allows the relators to personally collect something like 30% of any judgement.

Jay Gordon is reminding us that he takes care of patients, a responsibility some but not all the rest of us have as well.

With that in mind, here’s a short CME course I picked out for Jay which would benefit his patients more than haranguing participants on RI in a vain attempt to score points.*
It’s a course on immunization safety, based on a video presentation by a family physician who’s a professor at the Univ. of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health.

“After hearing and assimilating this program, the clinician will be better able to:

“Address concerns of parents about the immunization of children.”

” Review the history of vaccine safety dating back to the 1950s.”

“Discuss clinical evidence about common vaccines and risk for adverse effects, such as autism, sudden infant death syndrome, and febrile seizures.”

“Explain the process of vaccine development and the safety infrastructure of the US Department of Health and Human Services.”

“Provide up-to-date, honest, and evidence-based information to parents and patients who refuse vaccination.

http://www.mycme.com/immunizations-part-2-an-analysis-of-vaccine-safety/activity/1215/”

This CME course is only $25, and should eliminate the misconceptions and fill in the glaring gaps in Jay Gordon’s knowledge about vaccine safety.

*of course, if Jay pays no more attention to facts presented in the CME course than he does to the good information passed on to him by posters in this forum, little will be accomplished. But if he’s actually paying for knowledge (and getting CME credits in return) maybe he’ll be more willing to listen and change his ways.

Jay: “…are you all so rigid and dogmatic that you really can’t understand how someone could change opinions and practices? Maybe you are.”

Prove us wrong, Jay. Show us you can learn, and not just give lip service to the concept.

@Denice – Yep, his lack of empathy is startling. Sympathy’s pretty much just a social nicety but empathy’s such a vital component of human coexistence that I have a great deal of difficulty wondering how anyone can divorce themselves from the needs and fates of others.

My mother’s one of the rare women that meet the diagnostic criteria for NPD. Her empathic skills are undeveloped, however her talent for exploiting the empathy of others is outstanding. She just cannot bring herself to be in anybody’s shoes, never mind walking a mile in them! I always thought that was just a “grown up” thing, that I’d lose the sick lurch in my stomach when someone else was hurt or sad.

Jay & co. seem devoid of it too, and entirely unperturbed by the fact that there are real children in real hospitals, suffering and ill. He acts like he’s playing ‘Plague. Inc’*, not discussing the ramifications of gaps in herd immunity, and the potential for lifelong sequelae in some of the afflicted.

It’s all just a game to some of them, and that’s scary,.

*An Android disease simulator. Very good it is too, as it shows how the Player’s choice of pathogen would spread across the world.

@Dr. Gordon, “Most people don’t want measles.”

Yeah, but most people don’t want lots of things that are good for them and will “probably improve human health”. Why do you accede to their wishes in this case?

Bacon!!! I’m listening to this program now. Have you listened??
It leads with some of the awful complications the speaker has seen from vaccines. He is pretty strange. He then moves on to the Cutter incident and more. VAP and Rotoshield. Crazy good ammo for opponents of vaccines. Then on to how few people have actually read Wakefield’s article.

I’m not hearing much I didn’t know.

Email privately and I’ll try to send you the link to the audio program although it’s easily worth the 25 bucks you suggested I spend.

I’ll print the Summary below. See if it works.

IMMUNIZATIONS: PART 2
AN ANALYSIS OF VACCINE SAFETY
From the 2011 Scientific Assembly of the American Academy of Family Physicians
Jonathan L. Temte, MD, PhD, Professor of Family Medicine,
University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health, Madison
Introduction: problem of misinformation about vaccine
safety; in United States in 1990, number of licensed vaccines,
16 (in 2009, 60); birth cohort in United States

@Jay: ” think the MMR vaccine has underestimated side effects.”

BASED ON WHAT, you lying weasel quack?

By the way, Jay is quacking about this:

h_ttp://www.audio-digest.org/pages/htmlos/summary.html?sub1=FP6006

All you need to know:

“Suggested Reading
Geier DA, Geier MR: A two-phased population epidemiological study of the safety of thimerosal-containing vaccines: a follow-up analysis. Med Sci Monit. 2005”

@Stu

It’s not surprising that he cites the Geiers. They are the scientific equivalent of Tweedledum and Tweedledumber.

@Ren, you’re really wearing out your fingers for no reason in telling Dr. Gordon that measles recently evolved from rinderpest. He’s been told that repeatedly, at least as far back as June 2009

Since he thinks it’s important to keep measles around — not just in a freezer like smallpox but circulating in the population — I’m still really curious why he thinks it would be appropriate to vaccinate young people in Wales against it.

I’m confused – as a doctor, how does Dr. Jay not know the history of measles? Is he really that uneducated?

Please tell me Dr. Jay is in California & only caters to morons….please?

Damn Dr. Jay – do you really jump on every single anti-vax bandwagon there is? Aluminum, really?

@Lawrence: he does practice in California, but his patients are just children. Their parents may be arrogantly ignorant, but they themselves are innocent and defenseless.

Someone who can publicly complain that, “…the vaccine remains unquestioned because one can’t have a public debate of losing ‘weaker’ humans to measles to benefit stronger humans” probably isn’t in a good position to lecture others about their social skills. I wish I shared elburto’s eloquence.

Dr. Jay:

@Chris: Selling vaccines creates more profit for a pediatric practice than not selling. Much more profit.

My comment just soared over your head. I meant that you are allowing your wealthy clients to be parasites on the herd immunity from the high immunity in your community. Much of that immunity is provided by the free and low cost immunizations paid for by your local and federal government public health programs, like the Vaccines for Children Program (VFC).

This is why your actions are deplorable. You are allowing the privileged to sponge off of those with lower incomes (like those using Medi-Cal), and the taxpayers.

Do you seriously think that is it cheaper to provide hospital care for the one out of ten who get measles, than to actually prevent measles with two doses of an MMR vaccine? If so, you really need to take some basic courses on economics. Along civics, immunology, virology, epidemiology, etc.

Oh, and before Jay starts whining about me calling him a lying weasel quack — that’s not an ad hominem, not even an insult, merely a statement of fact.

@Dr Jay, who said:

“lived in relative symbiosis with hominids for millions of years”, so it can’t be eradicated and it would be dangerous to try, and anyway, “The infection may have beneficial effects for humans.”

and failed to respond when Ren pointed this out……
Here is some light reading for you, doctor:
http://www.virologyj.com/content/7/1/52
Evidence measles diverged from rinderpest virus less than 1000 years ago.
And guess what? Rinderpest has just been eradicated, by vaccination.
It’s people like you who stop us doing just the same for humans.
Do you hate children?

Wanna go a few more rounds with me Jay?

“I’m curious, are you all so rigid and dogmatic that you really can’t understand how someone could change opinions and practices? Maybe you are. Can you really do so little reading that you don’t know that vaccines can cause side effects which must be take seriously and factored into the decisions we all make?

Very few of you above have actual patients you care for. I do.”

I’ve had “real patients that I cared for”, Jay. Many of them were children who struggled to survive the devastating effects of vaccine-preventable-diseases. I’ve also “cared for” healthy and sick babies and children who received excellent care in public health clinics (the *kind of kids* that you have never seen, since you set up your boutique pediatric practice (Medicaid recipients and uninsured/undocumented little brown and black infants and children).

I’ve also investigated individual cases, clusters and outbreaks of highly communicable infectious diseases…both before vaccines were developed to prevent them…and after those vaccines were licensed. I remember each and every one of those children who “survived” those diseases and who were left with permanent neurological sequelae, major organ failure and limb amputations. I have stood at bedside in pediatric ICUs watching some of those children dying in septic shock and I’ve also attended memorial services (on my *own time*), because the parents of those children requested my presence.

Would you believe Jay…that many of the posters here are on “the spectrum” and some of us have beloved children and family members diagnosed with ASDs? Some of the posters here are childless and some have children who are neurotypical. We share a common bond…we are all child advocates, who really care about ALL children.

Jay Gordon @ 187:
No, I don’t believe that not breastfeeding should be illegal

Kudos for that, but my inquiry #172 was worded in the past tense… that is, back when your website endorsed Gisele Bundchen’s call for legally mandated breastfeeding, did you *then* believe that not breastfeeding should be illegal, or were you joking?

yes, “straight-faced pedants” legs should be pulled from time to time

This sounds almost as if joking about measles is sometimes OK after all; as if the complaint that Elburto’s sarcasm “crosses a line” was more of a rhetorical strategy.

Yes, I was unaware that measles jumped species that short a time ago. I get lots of gaps in my knowledge filled when I spend time at RI. Thank you. I just did the rinderpest reading that you’re suggesting.

Fortunately for all of us, omniscience is only a requirement for blogging at RI and not for commenting here. In the words of a character in Watchmen, “None of us is human”.

But I urge you to see the problem here. We all go through life taking for granted things that are wrong, sometimes learning about our errors, sometimes even correcting them. In your case, you made a foundational assumption in your defense of measles that turned out to be wrong; and you were led astray by the BMJ into supporting Wakefield’s anti-vax crusade.* The best we can hope for is to learn from experience that our current beliefs are provisional, and also stand a good chance of being wrong.

But anyway — if people do not immediately sign on for the new revelation that autism is caused by fire retardants and children’s pyjamas, it is not necessarily because they are bad or callous. It could be that they do not trust Jay Gordon’s judgement and are waiting to hear the theory from some other source before they plough into the literature. It could be, after all, that this current etiology could itself be abandoned in another year or so.

* Let us not inquire into whatever wrong assumptions I might have made.

@LW Doesn’t JG’s previous awareness of this (from your first paragraph of #200) conflict with JG’s reply to herr doktor bimler in #187?

A general thought that has been rattling around in my head and revived on reading Jay’s comments. I’d welcome comments on it.

A general practitioner’s main job is diagnosis, then offering the treatment matching the diagnosis.

It is not to try out-do the medical scientists that develop the treatments, but to offer what they have recommended.

Specialists (i.e. with the extra training that comes with that, and that they are not infrequently also researchers) might well try riddle out specifics of treatments from the primary research literature.

But not GPs. Their goals should be seated in diagnosis and keeping up with the treatments as recommended by the medical research community.

It seems to me a few GPs try “out-do” the research community – resulting in the sort of nonsense that Jay’s thinking is an exemplar of. GP’s training isn’t suited to this and smarter GPs would recognise that.

Thoughts? Take this as a generalisation. (There will always be exceptions and not-quite-right aspects in generalisations.)

I may later try explain to Jay why his reasoning in his reply to me is faulty, but reading others pointing at things he’s said before (incl. #219) I wonder if it’s worth the trouble and the more general point I’ve outlined above is better.

@LW Are you saying that measles is good for people or did you just not read my post carefully?

@Darwy: I recommend condoms when people are having sex. Not for routine evening wear. Good one, though. Your reasoning is shaky. If there’s a measles outbreak, or if you decide that the MMR is the best choice for your child, get the shot.

@Stu: Clever epithet. When one says “I think” that doesn’t mean that you or anyone else has to think the same thing. You, you . . . sillyhead, you!

@elburto It is not your “history of mental illness” or anything similar that could make me feel you’re “inferior.” It’s your incredible lack of civility, grace, compassion, wisdom and maturity that could lead me to that conclusion.

@LW: Read the data. We do not have a tetanus problem here. I have contributed my time and efforts (and money) to campaigns to get tetanus vaccines to the countries where it remains an endemic problem. Have you?

@Lawrence: As hard as it is to believe, I had forgotten the history of measles. I stand (stood) corrected.

@Krebiozen: A simple search of the medical literature will bring thousands of papers about aluminum as an irritant.

@herr doktor bimler: elburto’s behavior would not be tolerated in any venue in real life and I doubt she has the desire to lose her anonymity either. One can disagree without the bile and vituperative language she uses. Her anonymity is crucial to her continuing success here.

@lilady: The PCV7 created the milieu for that fatality. My patients are attracted to my practice because I work hard and good care of their children.

@Chris: One out of ten do not get measles. The number this year is one in a couple million in the USA.

@lilady: I have visited the sites you’ve mentioned. AOA’s complete text was critical of me. You know that.

I like Dr. Jay Gordon. He’s definitely one of the good guys in the medical world. But he really ought to rethink his criticism of Andy Wakefield’s work.
On Facebook Feb. 22, he took note of the 15th anniversary of the Lancet publication of the famous paper pointing to a pattern of novel bowel disease in 12 children with regressive ASDs, most of whose parents linked the onset to the MMR shot (that is actually what the study reported, not that MMR causes autism, etc., etc.)

Gordon writes: “Dr. Wakefield, whether his intentions were good or ill, should have written a brief letter to the editor about his findings and the need for much more study.” In the event, says Gordon, the Lancet was right to retract it, and he, Gordon, bases nothing he writes about autism on it.

Well, first of all, suggesting that Wakefield might have “ill” intentions is an unpleasant and too-casual way to cast doubt not just on his work but on his motives. Second, the vindication of John Walker-Smith — and even more, the tragic replications of Wakefield’s findings not just by other researchers but by the suffering of thousands more children with regressive autism and bowel disease these past 15 years — makes Gordon’s disavowal and rejection seem downright wrong-headed.

I’m looking for the pandering . . .

@Stu: My apologies. I thought the “lying weasel quack” name calling was a little offensive. You merely meant it factually. Thanks for the clarification.

@dingo199: I responded. I was wrong.

@Liz: I would love to learn how to ride a unicycle. Thanks for the link.

@lilady: You don’t listen. You just keep talking. No, I’ll quit.

@Ren: Now that is pandering. You know that in real life I don’t have any of the attributes you assign to me. You know that. Yet, life Stephen Colbert, you play this part when in real life you’ve never behave or speak this way.

@Orac: What happened to the view counter?? I regret having less time this weekend than I thought I’d have. I still hope to able to visit and respond, but if not please enjoy your weekend.

Jay

It seem to me that Dr. Jay never ever wanted to mess with me because I have too many evidence that autism is not a brain injury caused by vaccines (including aluminum) or his preferred alternative, flame retardant products.

Is that because of his conflict of interest in selling his book to prevent autism?

There will be autistics forever…

Alain

#226 We do not have a tetanus problem here.

… because people are vaccinated against it, yes.

@Dr. Gordon: “@LW Are you saying that measles is good for people or did you just not read my post carefully?”

I’ve read your comments *very* carefully over the years.

Measles is a dangerous disease and I am utterly appalled that someone holds himself out as caring for children and deliberately and willfully urges parents to leave their children unprotected from it.  A friend of my family is a pediatrician. She did her best to undo the damage that people like you have done, but she wasn’t always successful in convincing parents to vaccinate. So — no surprise — there was a measles outbreak and one of the children that she wasn’t allowed to vaccinate got the disease.  He developed encephalitis, Dr. Gordon, and suffered severe brain damage from which he will never recover.

I am utterly appalled that someone who holds himself out as a doctor deliberately and intentionally urges that girls be left unprotected against rubella as they grow to adulthood and consider having children.  I have urged you to read about the devastating effects of congenital rubella; I assume you didn’t. 

I am utterly appalled by someone who holds himself as caring about children and deliberately and willfully urges that children be left unprotected against tetanus. Did you read about the little boy left unprotected against tetanus in Australia?  He’s out of the ICU, and I understand that after a year or so of therapy he may well be able to walk again. 

I have been quoting *you*, Dr. Gordon. I have been quoting *your* claims that measles is not merely harmless but beneficial, to individuals and to the species as it wipes out the weak (I restrained myself from using an apt German term here).

Yes, I’ve read your comments *very* carefully over the years.

@ Dr. Jay: What the hell are you blathering on about with this statement?

@lilady: The PCV7 created the milieu for that fatality. My patients are attracted to my practice because I work hard and good care of their children.

Really Jay? Care to explain to us how serotype substitution (not antibiotic-resistance from the overprescribing of antibiotics) after the development/availability of the PCV-7 valent vaccine “created the mileau for “that fatality”.

Here…to get you started, the PubMed line listing of 142 articles published for S. Pneumoniae 13-Valent PCV vaccine:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=s.+pneumoniae+invasive+disease+13+valent+vaccine

Adv Ther. 2013 Feb;30(2):127-51. doi: 10.1007/s12325-013-0007-6. Epub 2013 Feb 7.
The impact of 7-valent pneumococcal conjugate vaccine on invasive pneumococcal disease: a literature review.
Myint TT, Madhava H, Balmer P, Christopoulou D, Attal S, Menegas D, Sprenger R, Bonnet E.
Source

Pfizer ESAT Vaccines, 23-25 Avenue du Docteur Lannelongue, 75014, Paris, France. [email protected]
Abstract
INTRODUCTION:

Streptococcus pneumoniae can cause invasive pneumococcal diseases (IPD), such as bacteremic pneumonia, bacteremia, meningitis, and sepsis, and non-IPDs, such as otitis media, nonbacteremic pneumonia, and upper respiratory tract infections. It was estimated in 2000 that, worldwide, S. pneumoniae was responsible for 826,000 deaths annually in children aged between 1 month and 5 years. A 7-valent pneumococcal conjugate vaccine (PCV7) was licensed in 2000 in the USA and in 2001 in Europe.
METHODS:

A literature search was performed in PubMed to identify studies assessing the impact of routine childhood PCV7 vaccination on pneumococcal morbidity and mortality. Here, the impact on IPD is reported.
RESULTS:

A total of 37 articles reporting impact data on IPD were included in this review: four from Australia, 17 from western Europe, and 16 from North America. In vaccine-eligible children in the postvaccination period, a reduction ranging from 39.9% in Spain to 99.1% in the USA in vaccine-type (VT) IPD incidence, compared with the prevaccination period, was reported in 18 studies. All but one of the 30 studies assessing the impact of PCV7 on all-type IPD reported a reduction ranging from 1.7% in Spain to 76.3% in Australia. In addition, the majority of studies reported reductions in VT and all-type IPD incidence in age groups that were not vaccine eligible.
CONCLUSIONS:

The results from this review illustrate that PCV7 has had a significant impact on IPD across all ages through its use in pediatric immunization programs. With the introduction of 13-valent pneumococcal conjugate vaccine (PCV13) further reductions in the incidence of IPD due to the six additional serotypes included, as well as continued protection against IPD due to PCV7 serotypes may be expected. Robust surveillance systems are essential for the evaluation of the impact of PCV13 on all-type IPD and for monitoring the evolution of non-VT IPD.

Jay, in a snit because his interview with the producers of “The Vaccine Wars” ended up on the film editor’s floor…

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jay-gordon/pbs-frontline-show-about_b_554691.html

What an odd coincidence. I viewed that documentary on PBS and the excellent interview of Brian Deer. That documentary propelled me over to Deer’s website to see how he took on *big pharma* interests…before he ever started investigating Andrew Wakefield’s fraudulent study..

@elburto It is not your “history of mental illness” or anything similar that could make me feel you’re “inferior.” It’s your incredible lack of civility, grace, compassion, wisdom and maturity that could lead me to that conclusion.

If someone persisted in being an activist and a self-styled authority for a cause that directly threatened my life and well-being, I might tend to get a little testy myself. In fact, I might even be a little uncivil, and more – who knows?

You also mention compassion. Glad to see that you’ve got a sense of humour.

Only “local” should have been in bold, hopefully I haven’t embolded the rest of the thread.

Dr Jay, my reasoning is absolutely not shaky.

You are recommending that people don’t take precautions to protect themselves until AFTER there’s a risk of exposure to measles (ie: a measles epidemic).

Not only is your reasoning faulty, it’s downright DEADLY.

Thanks LW for the correction….We’d be looking at 80,000 cases of measles YTD in the United States, by extrapolating the number of cases of measles in Wales (population 3 million) to the United States (population 314 million).

@Dr. Gordon:

@LW: Read the data. We do not have a tetanus problem here. I have contributed my time and efforts (and money) to campaigns to get tetanus vaccines to the countries where it remains an endemic problem.

It’s endemic here! Don’t you get that? The spores are everywhere. Tetanus is not a contagious disease and will never be eradicated by vaccination.

As Krebiozen implied, the risk of getting tetanus is like the risk of going through a windshield in a car accident: you have to protect each person and you have to keep protecting them or they will be injured or killed because the risk remains in the environment forever.

lilady:

We’d be looking at 80,000 cases of measles YTD in the United States,

Isn’t that close to how many cases were in the USA during the 1990 measles epidemic? Too bad Dr. Jay doesn’t remember that. Most of the deaths were in California among low income, which prompted more federal and local public health fund to get those with low income vaccinated. The same people whose immunity Dr. Jay has his wealthy clients leach from:

Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.

Oh, Mr. Deer, you know that the AoA crowd will just say that the little boy with leukemia and that the young man who died had asthma. That means that they don’t deserve to live because they are not perfect. Just like they did with the kids died in the UK almost a decade ago.

By the way:

@Jay: ” think the MMR vaccine has underestimated side effects.”

Back this up with research or admit you are a quack.

Thanks, lilady. That epidemic hit only 50000, and “only” killed a bit over 120. I can’t imagine how many deaths would occur if it happened if it repeated here again.

That epidemic is why Rosalynn Carter and Betty Bumpers started Every Child By Two. They actually care about the health of children.

Dr. Jay,

When you write, “I pay very close attention to disease incidence and would change recommendations for vaccinating based on this. ” I see a “closing the barn door after the horse has left”.

For example, your colleague Dr. Sears was unable to prevent an outbreak started by one of his own patients.

Also, how does changing a recommendation help past generations of your patients? How would a 15 year old who rarely comes to your office any more (or has moved out of the area entirely) get protection if a major outbreak were to occur?

“Vaccine manufacturers have no product liability and no incentive to improve vaccines. ”

We hear this a lot and both parts of the statement are untrue. First, people must sue the government before they can go to civil court. But they can go to civil court. All those discclaimer statements on vaccine inserts are there to protect the manufacturers in case of such a suit. Second, vaccine manufacturers most certainly have liability in case of manufacturing defect. Should they put out a lot of vaccines, for example, which had, say, botulism growing inside, they would be liable.

When people point out that the manufacturers do not have liability for adverse events, they should point out that we as a people have accepted liability for this in the form of the vaccine court. I.e. liability has been shifted, not eliminated.

If one believes that the profits from vaccines are very important to the manufacturers, one must then accept that the manufacturers have a financial incentive to create a product which can be licensed and maintain licensure. An unsafe product will be delicensed. A product which can be proved to be safer will replace another vaccine–even if that vaccine is already deemed safe. Such a new product would have patent protection and would make much higher profits for the manufacturer.

The real issue is that vaccines are very safe. It is very difficult to demonstrate that a new vaccine is safer than an existing vaccine. Such clinical trials would have to be huge. Difficult and expensive.

I just stood back and thought to myself- here we have a medically trained professional who writes advice about children’s health who doesn’t appear to have practical knowledge about infectious disease and vaccines.

J-sus Chr-st! I’m a frigging psychologist and I know the basics and did even before I ever worked with people who had compromised immunity in the 90s.

It’s worse than this because Dr Jay and other altie influenced medical professionals could stand between the REAL woo-artists and the general public and point out how alt med/ natural health/ ANH style ideas can be wrong-headed and ultimately dangerous to children’s health. This could be done responsibly by encouraging the ‘naturalistic’ leanings potential clients might fancy as a LIFE STYLE but peppering them with SBM on issues where health concerns are paramount.

But NO! He caters to the tastes of affluent, young white people who romantically affect styled nostalgia based on unrealistic ideas about a past golden age prior to the advent of science in medicine that never existed.

Their set of beliefs trickles down and we can survey it in places like AoA and TMR: the latter has produced volumes of choice idiocy ( see the past few days’ output- especially the video- re “Sh*t ” conventional mothers say). The followers spread this propaganda around via facebook like ripe manure. Tacit approval from experts fuels their inability to self- criticise or be realistic. Recent entries ( AoA comments) seem to write off a death due to measles as nothing for THEM to worry about.

Of course, Dr Jay doesn’t go as far anywhere as many of the outright woo-meisters we write about do BUT he doesn’t say this loudly enough and occasionally uses similar ploys ( e.g. above- stress on negative effects of vaccines without mention of their positive effects). I hear that on PRN and read that on Natural News.

At risk of sounding rude or reverting to coarser speech, I just expect better of him.. he’s smart.. and probably cares about children.

I don’t know, I’ll go outside and view nature from the cliffs – that usually calms me down.

Denice Walter:

But NO! He caters to the tastes of affluent, young white people who romantically affect styled nostalgia based on unrealistic ideas about a past golden age prior to the advent of science in medicine that never existed.

If you read the article about the hospitalizations and cost to Medi-Cal (California’s health insurance for those with low income) from the 1990 measles epidemic I posted in comment #248, you will learn the most highly impacted were low income non-white children. Because of this measures were taken to make sure that vaccines were available to as many children as possible. I mentioned the federal program, but the is also LA County’s List of No to Low Cost Immunization Clinics.

It is those who are provided vaccines at public cost that Gordon’s clients are using for protection from measles. They are getting a free ride on those with low income, and the taxpayers. He, and they, should be ashamed of themselves.

@Broken Link: I don’t like nor enjoy uncivil discussions in real life, at RI or at AOA. Unlike you, I would aver that there is no justification for insults in a scientific discussion. Say what you have to say, disagree, present facts, but be civil and respectful. The scientific level rises extremely high at RI and the insults and nastiness reaches levels that are unacceptable.

Don’t assign ill intent or nefarious motives when you have no proof and when it certainly doesn’t add to the discussion.

Both sites presents points of view and they are inextricably linked, as you imply. My word is not “law.” It is my point of view. I’m not sure how many times I have to explain that observation of events is a very valuable part of the scientific process. Data get manipulated. My confirmation bias is well-known, commented upon and I have never denied it.

And, yes, you and I can say whatever we want. I think we’re both obligated to be civil and respectful. That word is half the name of this site.

@lilady: The varicella vaccine was available in the mid-seventies. If your son is over forty, I’m sorry it was not available to him. It is a good vaccine for higher risk children. For heaven’s sakes, no one believes in “culling of the herd”–your posts are becoming more and more problematic.

@Chris: You linked to an article which says, “In1990,the peak of the epidemic, 27,786 cases of measles were reported (11.2cases per 100,000population.)”
Also ECBT was started and funded by vaccine manufacturers, not by Rosalynn Carter, Betty Bumpers and Eleanor Roosevelt. It’s not a bad group but pretty naive to assume that private citizens do these things without financial assistance.
@Stu: Back up your concept that the MMR vaccine does not had underestimated side effects or admit you are a quack! See how silly that sounds?

@matt Carey: Liability was not shifted it was eliminated. Read Bruesewitz http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-152.pdf

@Denice Walter: Your racist comments about me have no place in this discussion. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Stop it. Please.

@Chris: Vaccines are very profitable both for the manufacturers and for us docs. I see that there is a statement about it only being a $5,000,000,000 business, but, firstly, that’s a lot and secondly, it’s wrong.

@Jay: “The scientific level rises extremely high at RI and the insults and nastiness reaches levels that are unacceptable.”

Tone trolling. Sad, predictable, pathetic.

“Back up your concept that the MMR vaccine does not had underestimated side effects or admit you are a quack! See how silly that sounds?”

Yes, that sounds silly, because

A) YOU made an assertion that
B) YOU are not backing up that causes
C) YOU to endanger children making
D) YOU a quack.

Not only did you not address my question, you are deflecting my questioning your assertion by demanding I prove a negative. Pathetic, evasive, predictable tripe.

This is what makes you a weasel.

By not backing up your assertion of underestimated side effects, you have tacitly admitted you are a lying, incompetent quack. You spit on the Hippocratic oath and are a fecal stain on your profession.

By the way, Jay: you aren’t NEARLY as smart as you think you are.

Quoth Dr. Gordon:

The debate was heated and the vaccine remains unquestioned because one can’t have a public debate of losing “weaker” humans to measles to benefit stronger humans.

Nope, “no one believes in ‘culling of the herd’”.

@Stu, please don’t impugn weasels. They are beautiful, intelligent little carnivores who make their own way in a very tough world. They don’t deserve to be compared to Dr. Gordon.

@Stu: eel, hagfish, lamprey, slime mold …

I will post this as it was without the link as it is taking so long.
Broken Link, you just gave me the laugh of the century! You characterize this thread as having some”strongly held views and *some* insulting words!” You just unwittingly summed up the problem for many (though not all) who participate on this blog. I’m pretty sure that saying things like “fuck yourself with a chainsaw” by Elburto is well beyond insulting. Even encouraging adults on the spectrum to swear and vent (yes, by lack of censoring comments or admonishing for them) doesn’t seem right, especially when a few of these individuals have said they do suffer from mental health problems and or substance abuse. Chris and lilady claim self- righteously that they re the only ones in a position to feel vulnerable as to their children. Get over yourselves, ladies. There is not strong enough science yet (physiological) to back vaccine safety and no vacc VS unvacced study so you think you are entitled to trounce merrily on any who know their loved ones (children or adults alike) suffered from a vaccine side-effect. They are just as worthy of anyone’s sympathy, though you will never acknowledge this. Hopefully we are coming close to a better standard of safety so that risk/benefit will be improved for all. Oh and “Elburto” -you really need to read this article on ranting. It apparently just makes one angrier- rantingonwebsitejustmakesyouangrier.

Don’t assign ill intent or nefarious motives when you have no proof

Yes, as Asimov (I believe) once remarked, never attribute to malice what is actually the result of stupidity.

Oh come on, Dr Jay!

What you label as my “racism” is simply an observation about a self-selected group of affluent, usually well- educated, young(ish) parents who adopt a belief system based on a back-to-nature vibe, including organic products, less use of pharmaceuticals ad infinitum: you can’t deny that this group is predominantly white.

The anti-vax contingent we know about through sites like AoA and TMR ( the Canary Party, Safeminds) is also predominantly white- both US and UK- and overlaps ( but is not identical) with the aforementioned group and shares similar beliefs about “naturalism” and frequently scoffs at SBM.

I never said that you PREFER white people but that you may market to this group because of shared beliefs, shared background and shared philosophy – to some degree.

Would you prefer that I call them “crunchies”, “earth mothers”, “naturalistas”, hippies, bohemian bourgeosie’rs?

I am -btw- affluent, educated,liberal and as white as the proverbial sheet. I fit the same demographic and do not actively campaign against white people – which would be rather difficult as they’re everywhere I look and I am related to many of them.

@Khani:

Your exact words were “The debate was heated and the vaccine remains unquestioned because one can’t have a public debate of losing ‘weaker’ humans to measles to benefit stronger humans.”

And you’re correct, this doesn’t actually mean you would approve of such a thing, but for clarity’s sake, where would you stand in a public debate of losing “weaker” humans to measles, in order to benefit “stronger” humans?

Here’s the context of Dr. Gordon’s comment:

These debates have pretty much disappeared, but here’s more red meat for you, the measles virus and the infection it creates in strong healthy humans probably improves human health. The debate was heated and the vaccine remains unquestioned because one can’t have a public debate of losing “weaker” humans to measles to benefit stronger humans.

Does that sound like he’s against it?

Oh, and while Dr. Gordon is lecturing us that ” I don’t like nor enjoy uncivil discussions in real life, at RI or at AOA. Unlike you, I would aver that there is no justification for insults in a scientific discussion”, we can’t forget this tidbit, which is in the same comment with his “red meat”:

Orac, spending hours and hours and tens of thousands of words writing about ten cases of measles while millions of children die from lack of breastfeeding is truly cold-hearted and your lack of concern for these children is shameful.

Emphasis added since we all need to be educated by our betters on how one has a civil scientific discussion.

#276 I would prefer to hear a clarification straight from the horse’s mouth. He may wish to walk back his statement, after all–people do change their minds, or speak clumsily, on occasion.

I’d rather give him a friendly chance to clarify than assume the very worst. I’m still new and naive and hopeful, remember? 🙂

#279 If the anecdotal evidence is equal on both sides, why not let the science be the determining factor in what you recommend? The preponderance of the evidence is for vaccination.

If that is not enough to change your mind, what would change your mind?

As off-putting as Orac may be to you, he has very clearly given criteria that would make him change his mind (scientific studies, well-constructed, published in journals of excellence).

Please, for the sake of argument, tell us what would change your mind, if equal anecdotes and the preponderance of scientific evidence will not?

@Jay – sitting with the families of children with autism, who have been brainwashed by the folks at Generation Rescue and AoA that vaccines are to blame – for something that is almost certainly a genetic condition……Sorry, I’ll continue to rely on Science and not the word of quacks.

Also, Dr. Gordon, I did mistype the numbers from the 1989-1991 measles epidemic from the History of Vaccines timeline. Since you cannot directly link to it, I shall post the entire paragraph:

Over the period from 1989-1991, measles outbreaks sickened 55,000 Americans, killing 123. Of all of the cities that suffered from the outbreaks, Philadelphia was hit hardest: 1,500 children fell ill and nine, most of whom had not been vaccinated, died. Many outbreaks were centered in areas where immunization levels were low.

Yes, 1990 was the peak of the epidemic. Are you going to dismiss the 120 that died as just collateral damage of children who did not deserve to live. Just like you dismiss adoptive children because their mothers did not give birth to them, and therefore cannot breastfeed?

And are you going to ignore the cost to California taxpayers that the 1989-91 measles epidemic caused? From that paper:

Hospital costs amounted to $18 million, two thirds of which was paid for by Medi-Cal.

Are you proud that your rich special little snowflake clients are leeches on the community immunity provided in part by the taxpayers?

So, really, do read that table on that document, and tell us what number is to the left of the word “Vaccines.”

@Chris: We used the vaccine in 1977 and beyond. I used that vaccine during those years for non-immune adults and children who were immunocompromised. It became increasingly difficult to get it from the manufacturer in the eighties. Ask an old pediatrician.

Notice the silence when one of you says something really wrong.

@ Jen

Jen cited those “who know their loved ones (children or adults alike) suffered from a vaccine side-effect.”

Jen, can you understand the difference between those who believe or think or suspect that their loved ones suffered from a vaccine side effect and those who actually know that?

Well, it certainly seems that you don’t, so let’s try this: According to a 2005 Gallup poll, about 25% of the American adult population believes in astrology; can you understand that there is a difference between those who believe or think or suspect that their lives are guided by the stars and those who knowthat to be true? How about this: according to the same poll, about one in ten Americans believe that a person’s body can be taken over by a spirit—is there a difference between those who believe or think or suspect that their bodies can be taken over by a spirit, and those who knowthat’s true?

Much of the anti-vaccine nonsense is based on the difference between belief and knowledge. Evidence matters.

For example, you might want to review the studies that clearly show that the subtle early signs of ASD can be discerned by trained researchers long before parents might ascribe the later, more obvious signs of ASD that happen to emerge in proximity to vaccinations given long after the initial signs could be detected.

#291 That’s a shame, especially for all the children who will be born with birth defects because of chickenpox.

I for one dearly wish I’d had the opportunity to have the chickenpox vaccine. Now I’m at risk for shingles, which strikes when you’re most vulnerable in your later life, and for which the vaccine is not as effective.

Long comment (with too many links), addressed to Dr. Jay…stuck in moderation.

@lilady: “Odd…that you didn’t know that Dr. Jay.”

Yes, let’s put Jay’s delusions of grandeur and general whining aside and talk about his rank incompetence and ignorance for a while.

Or, maybe not.

@Jen, since you repeated yourself for no reason and ignored my comment: “here is not strong enough science yet (physiological) to back vaccine safety and no vaccinated VS unvaccinated study ”

Only a monster would suggest such a study. What the hell is wrong with you?

@Jay: “Your comments are racist, imply racism on my part and have no place here.”

A) No, they were not.
B) No, they did not. They implied narcissism-infused star-farking. And that, Jay, you have proven over and over to be accurate.
C) You do not decide what has a place here, you arrogant, WATB douchecanoe. Start your own blog.

“You know nothing of my practice.”

Oh yes we do, Jay. We know it is Very Important. We know it is Very Busy. We know you lie to your patients. Jay, the first link on your site under Vaccinations is that disgusting piece of tripe “Deadly Vaccinations” by RFK Jr. for crying out loud.

I know you’re trying to re-invent yourself as being rational and reasonable, but you’re not. You’re not fooling anybody. You’re a liar, and you’re a quack. Again, you are a fecal stain on the medical profession, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

“a significant proportion of care in my office is done pro bono”

I call bullsh*t. You’re a proven liar. Sorry if we don’t take your word for it, sweetheart.

“a very, very small proportion of the families are as you’ve described them.”

You mean rich? Yeah, um, sorry, Jay, again, sorry if we don’t take your word for it.

“Keep your racist elitist comments away from me, please.”

This coming from someone endorsing letting the poor and weak die off from preventable diseases so his special snowflake patients don’t have to deal with them.

Ah… the milk of human kindness.

“I continue to read and listen and learn. My opinions and my practices change as I learn.”

Obvious and stupid lie. You’re just trying to repackage your tripe, Jay. You’re still as anti-vaccine as ever. This takes ten seconds of Googling, doofus. Who do you think you are fooling?

“no one–including me–would ever suggest “culling” as a criterion for the debate”

Of course not! You just say very reasonable things, like that the side-effects of the vaccine are underestimated. Now, you don’t have any proof of that whatsoever. You don’t give a crap that communicating this stance can and will cause irreparable harm to children. You care about how knowledgeable this makes you sound to all your anti-vaccine (pro-bono, natch) patient’s parents. You want more TV stints as the voice of reason, when you are not.

“I think that risks and benefits of the MMR vaccine are appropriate topics and there remains insufficient proof of the vaccine’s dangers.”

FREUDIAN SLIP OF THE DAY ALERT

No really, read that again, and you’ll know exactly where Jay is coming from here.

Man, was I right about calling him stupid.

“I defy anyone to sit and talk with 100 families who are certain that vaccines greatly harmed their children and come away feeling the same as many of you do.”

Jay. You’re a goddamned moron. Your medical license should be set on fire forthwith. Allow me to illustrate:

I defy anyone to sit and talk with 100 families who are certain that seat belts greatly harmed their children and come away feeling the same as many of you do.

“Yes, the parallel of sitting with parents whose children contracted diseases and were harmed is equally effective anecdotal evidence. I’ve done both.”

You don’t get to have this middle ground, you herd immunity parasite. If nobody vaccinated, you’d have to have the latter “sitting” orders of magnitude more often. YOU’RE NOT FOOLING ANYONE, YOU CLOWN.

“As an example of the quality and tone of discourse, I have to cite the last few comments above.”

Stop your tone trolling. It’s tired, it’s old, it’s pathetic. Nobody would call you names if you just addressed the damned issues, Jay. Try that instead of whining.

“I wish more basic science vaccine studies had been done. I not favor leaving children unvaccinated to thin a herd or as an experiment.”

Hi! I’m Jay. I cannot form two sentences without directly contradicting myself. It’s ok, nobody will notice, right?

“I’m in pediatrics to care for children as best I can.”

That is either a lie or an open admission of rank incompetence.

“My points of view are not shared by the majority of my colleagues”

Why? No, seriously Jay, why do you think that is?

“those points of view are shaped and even changed by the words of some of the more knowledgable denizens of Orac’s world.”

Liar. As long as you have “Deadly Immunity” up as your first link under Vaccinations, that is a filthy, scum-sucking lie of the first order. Have you no shame?

“I happen to like Orac.”

Ah yes. Let me guess. You are so dense and delusional that you think this is all in good fun, right?

“As I mentioned, like Stephen Colbert, he plays a role on this site.”

Jay. Sooner or later, someone is going to die or be maimed for life because you lied to them. How do you live with yourself? This is not funny, jackwagon.

“like Bill O’, Colbert and others”

Just by comparing those two, you have proven yourself denser than several packs of hammers. Sweet tap-dancing Jeebus you’re stupid.

“he does what he does for educational and entertainment value.”

I’m sorry, I… I don’t even… what the hell is wrong with you.

“Notice the silence when one of you says something really wrong.”

You hypocritical tone-trolling bucket of lamprey slime. You can say these things AFTER you back up your assertions about underestimations of vaccine side effects, not before.

@Khani:

The reason people vaccinate is to prevent blindness, birth defects and deaths, which are numerically inevitable if enough cases occur. Fewer cases = fewer complications.

Another reason for vaccinating is that with certain diseases, if you vaccinate enough people at the right time, you can eradicate the disease and then nobody has to be vaccinated for that disease anymore. Smallpox was eradicated that way. Measles could be eradicated that way. There aren’t a lot of diseases that fall into that category: tetanus doesn’t, for example, but measles does.

@Dr. Gordon:

There are numerous European studies showing the consequences of universal varicella vaccination. The scientists there have decided that the morbidity and mortality to adults outweighs the benefits to pediatric population.

Hmm, what would cause morbidity and mortality in adults? Exposure to the disease? Seems less likely if you have a high level of immunity among children and adults can get vaccinated too. That doesn’t seem like the right explanation.

Could it be … shingles? Could it be that allowing the disease to circulate freely among children means that adults are re-exposed so their immune system stays prepped and they don’t develop shingles?

My understanding is that it is thought that less frequent exposure to poxy children is the cause of higher rates of shingles in older people these days, so that makes sense as an explanation.

Of course, it means that the children who were allowed to suffer the misery of chickenpox for the benefit of their elders are set up to get shingles themselves some day, which means that other little children must also suffer the misery of chickenpox and the risk of shingles, and so on forever…

Or we could, you know, beef up the adults’ immune systems through vaccines instead of exposure to poxy children, and then over time the risk of shingles will afflict fewer and fewer people and overall human suffering would be greatly diminished.

You hypocritical tone-trolling bucket of lamprey slime

Lampreys don’t slime; you’re thinking of hagfish. I am now VERY VERY OFFENDED.

Jay:

We used the vaccine in 1977 and beyond.

Before it was licensed for the general pediatric population it does not count. It is like saying RSV vaccine is commonly used. Also asking older pediatricians is just asking for anecdote. You need to provide the evidence that it was approved for use in the USA before 1995. Otherwise we will think you are just making stuff up.

And since I had to suffer with three kids with chicken pox, including a six month old baby in 1994, I would be very mad that the vaccine was available!

Stop back tracking.

Now, again, for the third time: go to the first appendix of the following document and tell us what is the number to the left of the word “Vaccines”, and tell us what it means:
http://www.imshealth.com/imshealth/Global/Content/IMS%20Institute/Documents/IHII_UseOfMed_report%20.pdf

It does not look good when you cannot open a pdf document, got to a certain page and read a very simple table.

@herr doktor bimler: “I am now VERY VERY OFFENDED.”

We need to come up with insults that don’t unfairly stigmatize critters. I like to use “orc” because they don’t actually exist.

Apart from the undeniable fact that antivaxxers like Mr BS can’t do basic maths (0.5 deaths per million – if you include everyone who didn’t get the disease? MORON!), I’d love to know what they consider an acceptable death rate for a preventable childhood disease? One child in 10,000? 2000?

Especially if it were applied to a hypothetical entirely-unprotected population numbering hundreds of millions?

We can wipe diseases out with vaccination. Or we can let them roam unchecked and watch thousands of children die every year.

Still, it would only kill the weak kids, hey? Perhaps we should bring back smallpox and polio for the same reason. And have lions roaming school playgrounds too – sure, some will die but just imagine how fit the survivors will be!

Dr Jay – some of your statements to (and presence at) that conference were truly outrageous. Care to elaborate which you still stand by, and which you do not?

***IRONY METER WARNING***

From the linked video, @1:22: “I was appalled with the quality of that science” (talking about MMR safety research)

Polio? Polio-shmolio. I mean, most people get over it, right?

h_ttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/20/Iron_lungs.JPG/1280px-Iron_lungs.JPG

Hah– hi5, Khani!

Stu:

@Chris: Jay has already stated that he does not believe the numbers in that document. The real question is why?

Because he likes the ones that agree with his beliefs, or that he just makes up out of thin air!

#311 I personally would love to need fewer vaccines. I hate and fear shots; I get them anyway.

Like many other people, I primarily get the vaccines to protect old people or small children I come into contact with, along with folks who are on chemo or are otherwise immunosuppressed. My own immune system is pretty tough, and I’m not an oldster yet myself.

It’s a public service that costs me nothing (thank you insurance) except for a few minutes of anxiety and (thank you pertussis-diphtheria-tetanus) sometimes a very sore arm.

Let’s back up.

My first comment about my son’s pancytopenia and leukopenia was directed at Brian Deer:

“@ Brian Deer: My medically fragile child who was born with panyctopenia including leukopenia, only survived because he was immunized against measles, mumps, rubella. I was very fearful of him contracting varicella because they was no vaccine available to protect him.

He did contract varicella just before the vaccine became available, and at the first sign of lesions, he was put on acyclovir to prevent the proliferation of the virus in his body and to shorten the course of the illness.”

Dr. Jay misinterpreted my comment; (“pancytopenia and leukopenia” are NOT leukemia or solid tumors). Dr. Jay did not pick up the clue about Acyclovir being prescribed for my son, which was NOT approved for treatment of varicella until 1992 http://news.stanford.edu/pr/91/911125Arc1046.html

Jay then posts a snide comment back at me…

“@lilady: The varicella vaccine was available in the mid-seventies. If your son is over forty, I’m sorry it was not available to him. It is a good vaccine for higher risk children. For heaven’s sakes, no one believes in “culling of the herd”–your posts are becoming more and more problematic..”

I then posted back at Dr. Jay…

“My son was born in 1976 and you’re a “bit off” (20 years), about the availability of the varicella vaccine in the United States” (and linked to the Wikipedia entry that provided information about the licensing of Varicella vaccine in the United States in 1995).

Dr. Jay, because he will never admit he is wrong, then posts back at me…

“@lilady: The vaccine became available in the mid-1970s and was used in special circumstances in the USA and elsewhere all throughout the seventies and eighties. The manufacturer supplied it upon request during that time” (with a link to the vaccine’s use in JAPAN for children with acute leukemia and solid tumors)

I really doubt you ever administered Japanese varicella vaccine “all throughout the seventies and eighties”, when the recommendations from the CDC and the ACIP was to secure ZIG (Zoster Immune Globulin) and/or VZIG (Varicella Zoster Immune Globulin), when it became available:

From the MMWR, February 24, 1984 Issue.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00022690.htm

Recommendations of the Immunization Practices Advisory Committee (ACIP) Varicella-Zoster Immune Globulin for the Prevention of Chickenpox

“…In 1969, zoster immune globulin (ZIG), prepared from patients convalescing from herpes zoster, was shown to prevent clinical varicella in susceptible, normal children if administered within 72 hours after exposure. Subsequent uncontrolled studies of immunocompromised patients who received ZIG after exposure to V-Z virus showed that they also tended to have lower- than-expected clinical attack rates and higher-than-expected rates of subclinical infection when ZIG was administered no later than 96 hours after exposure. Patients who became ill tended to have modified illnesses with a low complication rate. The efficacy of ZIG in immunocompromised persons was further demonstrated by a study comparing the use of low-titer versus high- titer lots; patients who received the high-titer ZIG had significantly lower risks of complications.

ln 1978, VZIG became available. Both serologic and clinical evaluations have demonstrated that the product is equivalent to ZIG in preventing or modifying clinical illness in susceptible, immunocompromised patients exposed to varicella. VZIG has been licensed by FDA’s Office of Biologics. VZIG is prepared from plasma found in routine screening of normal, volunteer blood donors to contain high antibody titers to V-Z. VZIG (Human) is a sterile, 10%-18% solution of the globulin fraction of human plasma, primarily immunoglobulin G (IgG) in 0.3M glycine as a stabilizer and 1:10,000 thimerosol as a preservative. It is prepared by Cohn cold ethanol precipitation.

ZIG was in short supply because of the continuous need to find new donors convalescing from herpes zoster. Because of the method of routinely screening plasma from regular blood donors for high titers of V-Z antibody and using those units to prepare VZIG, supplies became substantially greater…”

Did you forget Jay, that I worked as a public health nurse clinician-epidemiologist in a County health department, before the varicella vaccine was licensed in 1995. The staff at the Health Department controlled the supply of VZIG and secured the VZIG from the Red Cross, for post exposure prophylaxis administration to pregnant women, newborn children and those undergoing immune suppressing treatments for cancers:

“Supply

VZIG is produced by the Massachusetts Public Health Biologic Laboratories. Outside Massachusetts, distribution is arranged by the American Red Cross Blood Services–Northeast Region, through other centers (Table 4). VZIG is distributed within Massachusetts by the Massachusetts Public Health Biologic Laboratories.”

I’m still waiting for you to reply/supply citations to back up your statements about PCV-7 and PCV-13 vaccines, Jay.

I’m not impressed with your diversionary tactics about varicella vaccine…which are blatant mistruths. Really Jay, did you think you were going to roll over on us, by just making sh!t up?

BTW Jay…

Do you get the seasonal flu vaccine and provide it free-of-charge to your staff?

Were you and your staff tested for the presence of IGG antibodies against varicella, once the vaccine was licensed in the United States in 1995? Did you provide the vaccine free-of-charge to staff who were found to susceptible?

Have you and your staff all received the Tdap vaccine?

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr6007a1.htm

More about Japan’s Vaccines Problems…

http://pediatrics.about.com/b/2011/03/08/japans-vaccine-problem.htm

“…It is kind of ironic that the first varicella vaccine was developed in Japan in the 1970’s and was licensed in Japan in 1988, but still isn’t on their routine immunization schedule.

Why is all of this important? Although anti-vaccine proponents will likely applaud Japan’s immunization schedule, it is important to note that vaccine-preventable infections are still a big problem in Japan. In early 2000, there were 20,000 to 30,000 reported cases of measles a year in Japan, with actual numbers of cases 5 to 10 times higher due to under reporting. Although rates are trending down, as recently as 2008, Japan had 11,015 reported cases of measles, compared to 140 in the US.

Also of note is that there were 104,568 cases of mumps in Japan in 2009, along with 148 cases of rubella, 2 cases of congenital rubella syndrome, and 113 cases of tetanus.

Routine pertussis vaccinations were halted in Japan in 1975 following the deaths of two children. That eventually lead to epidemic cases of whooping cough in the country and at least 41 deaths in children before the vaccine was restarted. Did halting the pertussis vaccine lead to their seemingly fear of vaccines over a fear of vaccine-preventable diseases? Will halting vaccines again cause further fear of vaccines and increased rates of vaccine-preventable diseases?

As we continue to see these kinds of vaccine-preventable infections, like measles, being imported by travelers from Japan, Europe, and other areas, these vaccine questions are important to think about….”

Matt Carey:

Japan gives another example of a country with low vaccine uptake, measles outbreaks and deaths.

Thank you for those examples that were not in my file. Unfortunately there was an error in your comment, it seems that this is the actual link (doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(04)16715-9):
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673604167159/fulltext

Another take on this is: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1177963/

The “Background” of the paper says:

Due to low vaccine coverage, Japan has not only experienced outbreaks of measles but has also been exporting it overseas. This study aims to survey measles vaccine coverage and the factors uncompleted vaccination among community-living children.

Further down the paper says:

In Japan, measles vaccine coverage has remained low, and either small or moderate outbreaks have occurred repeatedly in communities. According to an infectious disease surveillance (2000), total measles cases were estimated to be from 180,000 to 210,000, and total deaths were estimated to be 88 [11,12]. Measles cases are most frequently observed among non-immunized children, particularly between 12 to 24 months.

So, Dr. Gordon, how many babies need to die in this country for you to actually get some pertinent CME credits on vaccines and infectious diseases?

#321 Regarding the tone thing: People can get a bit carried away.

However, given that in some cases their lives are actually being threatened by the results of anti-vaccine rhetoric, I can see why they do.

Dr Jay – I wish I could say I’m ashamed at how poorly you research, but I have to say I’m not surprised.

“The vaccine became available in the mid-1970s and was used in special circumstances in the USA and elsewhere all throughout the seventies and eighties. The manufacturer supplied it upon request during that time.

(For folks who want to see the actual study it’s here;

http://dx.doi.org.globalproxy.cvt.dk/10.1016/S0140-6736(76)92397-7

Oh wait. that’s not a study – it’s a letter to the editor!)

“Varicella infection is often severe or even fatal in children with leukaemia or other malignancies. In a nationwide survey of leukaemic children in Japan we found that symptoms were severe in 56 out of 106 varicella-infected leukaemic children; 32 died. The risk of varicella has been increasing with the longer survival-times of these children and with the more intensive chemotherapy these children are given. Live varicella vaccine has proved safe and effective for children with chronic diseases such as nephrosis who had been receiving steroid therapy. We have tried this vaccine in children with acute leukaemia or other malignancies.

…Considering the increasing risk of exposure and the potentially fatal nature of varicella in leukaemic children, live varicella vaccine would be a potent measure for prevention.”

-Akihiko Hattori, Toshiaki Ihara, Toshiaki Iwasa, Hitoshi Kamiya, Minoru Sakurai, Tadasu Izawa. Department of Pediatrics, Mie University School of Medicine, Tsu-City, Mie, Japan.

So tell me, Dr. Jay – what part of that letter to the Editor supports your claim that it was used in the United States in the 70’s, and was available?

Because it was in use in Japan?

It was DEVELOPED in Japan in 1974. The ‘Oka’ in the ‘Oka strain’ is the child’s LAST NAME, Dr. Jay. (Much like the Jeryl Lynn strain for mumps is named after the child).

The first clinical trial of the vaccine occurred in an 18 month period (between ’74 and ’75) in a pediatric outpatient clinic in Chukyo Hospital

Asano, Y., Nakayama, H., Yazaki, T., Kato, R., Hirose, S., Tsuzuki, K., & … Takahashi, M. (1977). Protection Against Varicella in Family Contacts by Immediate Inoculation With Live Varicella Vaccine. Pediatrics, 59(1), 3.

So in other words, Dr. Jay. You’re full of it. There is no way your claim is true. When the FIRST clinical trial was held IN Japan in 1974-1975, it was most certainly NOT available in the US for use in ‘special circumstances’.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2573284/

“The Oka-V strain was first supplied in 1976 under license from the Biken Institute in Japan. Several manufacturers (SmithKline RIT, Merck Sharp & Dohme, and Pasteur Mérieux) subsequently used the Oka-V strain in the development of proprietary vaccines. A product license was obtained for Varilrix (frozen formulation) in 1984 by SmithKline RIT for use in groups at high risk for severe varicella and their healthy close contacts. SmithKline RIT—now GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) Biologicals—subsequently developed a refrigerator-stable formulation of this varicella vaccine. Varilrix is indicated in many countries for use in healthy and immunocompromised subjects from 9 months of age. GSK Biologicals’ varicella vaccine production is based on the seed lot system (6, 14) using classical cell culture methods (Fig. ​(Fig.1).1). A manufacturer’s working cell bank of human diploid cells, MRC-5, was prepared and tested according to World Health Organization requirements.

The Biken vaccine was licensed in Japan and Korea, in 1986 and 1988, respectively, for use in healthy subjects, and a license for Varivax with the same indication was granted in the United States in 1995 (1). In 1993, the vaccine manufactured by Pasteur Mérieux was licensed in France for use in potentially immunocompromised subjects.”

So, it was AFTER 1984 when any ‘high risk individual’ or their ‘close family contact’ could have POSSIBLY been given a varicella vaccine, and it was ONLY licensed for that use – NOT for giving to the general public.

Varilix was reformulated in 1989 and the new vaccine finalized in 1991, with its first licensure granted in 1994.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.2165/0063030-200822060-00005

Really Dr. Jay – if you’re going to make up stories (and I really wish you wouldn’t) you should do it in a place like AoA, where folks wouldn’t know how to research even if they lived in a library.

Sigh; I have a comment hung up in moderation. I have to remember to use less than 3 links when I post, I really do.

Bob G,

I generally agree – the endogenous viruses (and their remnants) have little to do with present-day infections. ERV, on this forum, has written some posts on this topic (ERV = endogenous retrovirus). Their history and the involvement of the derived gene regulatory elements in human development, etc., is fascinating.

@ Bob G. Rhandi Paige is not a “RI Regular”. A day or two before Rhandi posted here at # 50 https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2013/04/05/who-can-quack-the-loudest/ I went after the troll Rhandi for a nasty comment posted at Orac. Here’s the vile remark Rhandi made about gay people.

“Rhandi Paige
April 5, 2013

I don’t know about vaccines making you gay, but BPA can cause abnormal hormonal changes and excess estrogen in males. It does make sense that since the increase in BPA useage, an increase in male feminism has also occured in the USA. Countries that prohibit BPA have more manly men and less homosexuality. Could be a potential link. That is the “scientific” approach to it. There were rumors that USA and Russia both had bioweapons that could make people gay back in the 1980s. Of course if there were such a thing, we would have used it in Iraq. The jist of gayism is that it is a satanic inspired event that happens over time. porn abuse, childhood abuse, single family homes where the mother is dominant source of guidance, and other factors contribute to gayism, but ultimately it is a sin no matter the cause.”

Follow the comments, where you attempt to teach us about the proper use of the terminology “Citation please” and your misunderstanding of “lurker”.

I recall the young man you wrote about whom you referred to a “as brain damaged”…and I also recall you referring to other autistics as “brain damaged”. At that time I commented that many of the posters here are autistic and many of the posters here have children who are on the “Spectrum” and we all take great offense at the phrase “brain damaged”.

BTW, if you find some of the remarks obscene, you don’t have to post here. I, OTH, find many of the remarks posted on AoA as being far worse than obscene.

I went after the troll for a snide remark about Orac.

Jay: I don’t run with a crowd.

Suuure, you don’t. It’s just a coincidence that you have hordes of slavering fangirls in the bored, whiny, yuppie mummy crowd.

@Khani:

It’s a public service that costs me nothing

You’re a nicer person than I am. I get vaccinated because I don’t like getting sick.

@ Militant Agnostic:

I’ll put that epithet in my files.
You know, at first I couldn’t tell if he thought I was being disrespectul to whites or non-whites.

At any rate, I do feel that anti-vacciniana targets a particular audience that is privileged and largely white. Sites like AoA or Natural News brag that their position ( anti-vax) is shown in surveys to over-represent people with better educational status and higher income. If you scan websites’ owners/ contributors ( e.g. AoA. TMR, SafeMInds, Canary Party) or photos of their conventions, you’ll see mostly white faces.

@ Bob G:

Well, thanks. I try very hard to bring in material from my own studies/ work and my surveying of alt media, including anti-vax. There’s so much awful fearmongering around the net. I try to read and listen and imagine how I might react if I were not immunised against it.
I like being a stranger in a strange land.

#338 I have one of those healthy immune systems the antivaxxers seem to like. I’m susceptible to low-level sinus problems but not much else. Now if there were a vaccine for that…

#337 I did notice that you didn’t answer my question, which I feel is a fair one. Still, there’s been a lot of posts so maybe you missed it. If anecdotes and the *preponderance* of scientific evidence don’t change your mind, precisely what will?

Orac has laid out his requirements for changing his mind; I would like to see yours, please.

@Chris: I looked at that table, stared at that table, saw the number “17” and can’t figure out why you keep repeating the same thing over and over again. Yes, we spend more on other drugs than vaccines. OK?

I honestly have no idea how to prove that the vaccine was given at major pediatric oncology centers in the USA in the 1970s and also no idea how to do the research or find the industry documents about compassionate use for non-immune adults for the 15-20 years prior to USA licensure. It was a small answer to one of the posters above. But 100% true.

@Denice Walter: I do not target any particular race or socioeconomic demographic when I discuss vaccines. I offer my admittedly minority point of view about giving six or seven different vaccines to a two-month-old and following other aspects of what I regard as a very unscientific approach to administering immunizations. I speak for free, I consult for pay and for free, too. I believe you must be projecting when you accuse me of racism and would ask you, once more, to stop.

Gordon:

Yes, we spend more on other drugs than vaccines. OK?</blockquote.

Exactly. And one of those drugs has to do with respiratory issues, like asthma, etc. You still don't get that vaccines are an inexpensive safe preventative form of medicine and actually save money.

You still don't understand how much the measles epidemic cost the California taxpayers a bit over twenty years ago. And you still don't understand that your patients are being protected by herd immunity from others, many of whom are low income and get vaccinated at taxpayer expense.

You really need to stop whining about how much pharmaceutical companies get paid for actually preventing illnesses that cost lots more to take care of in the end. It is a completely idiotic argument. Perhaps you make those claims to drive sales of your books, especially the last very horrible one where parents get blamed if their baby grows into an autistic preschooler.

Here are some other papers for you to actually read:

Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005;159:1136-1144.
Economic Evaluation of the 7-Vaccine Routine Childhood Immunization Schedule in the United States, 2001

J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S210-5.
Measles hospitalizations, United States, 1985-2002.

J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S69-77.
Acute measles mortality in the United States, 1987-2002.

JAMA. 2000 Dec 27;284(24):3145-50.
Individual and community risks of measles and pertussis associated with personal exemptions to immunization.

It genuinely blows my mind when anyone calls the comments HERE uncivil. They wouldn’t last an hour on Pharyngula, I’m guessing. Heck, the commenters on many of the “Mommy” forums will verbally eviscerate one for the slightest disagreement.

@Matt: we’re not talking “not appropriate”. We’re talking “not true”.

To Lilady among others:

On March 23, in comment number 69, I was doing a little speculating about the fact that humans show a lot of variance that are collectively referred to as birth defects. Here’s what i said:

“The parents of disabled children want to ask why, and some of them want to have some tangible thing to blame. It might be more correct (to speculate) that the fully developed human brain is the consequence of many genes, developmental effects, and even prenatal nutrition, and that every fertilized egg (except identical twins) is a random mixture of genes from both parents. Thus we should expect that most of the time (say nine out of ten), the offspring is essentially normal in brain development and anatomy, but when enough unlucky alleles are present, say one time out of ten, the combination results in some degree of abnormality due to the interaction of this unidentified set of unlucky genes.

“This seems offhand to be a very high level of disability, when we think about standard models of Darwinian selection. But the answer is actually fairly simple: Human intelligence is the most important selective advantage on the planet at the moment, and this selective advantage for the whole species can tolerate a fairly high level of damaged people. The correlate speculative hypothesis goes something along these lines: Since the development of the human brain is so complicated and requires so many gene actions, most required in a developmentally regulated fashion (ie: they have to come on and go off at the right time), there is simply no way to breed the damage out of the species in a limited number of generations. Partly this is because a gene activity that results in abnormality in some genetic background may be positively selected under some other genetic background.”

The next commenter, Melissa G, remarks:

“BobG, I wish you wouldn’t refer to the autistic brain as “damaged.” Many of us get along fine, thank you.”

I then tried to give an explanation in comment number 75 of March 24, 2013.

I was careful to use the phrase “damaged people” in a broad sense. Once again, I would ask whether anybody here will dispute that the 31 year old abuse victim who was the subject of widespread television coverage is “damaged” in some form? Certainly his whole life has been damaged by his inability to use language or to defend himself against cruelty and abuse. That was my clear meaning. I pointed out that this unfortunate man has a developmental disorder, and I think it’s obvious that it’s not the result of a car accident, lack of oxygen at birth, or parental abuse.

Given the totality of those remarks, does anyone want to argue that cerebral palsy is not some form of damage, that schizophrenics are exactly like the other 98 percent of the population, or that Parkinson’s disease is just an eccentricity?

I can understand that some of us are especially sensitive to particular word usages because the phrases in question have been used maliciously by some people in some venues. To read those kinds of intent or thought into my remarks is to misread me, and as I said before, it requires trying very hard to do so.

One thing that struck me as a little odd is the accusation that I refer to autistics as “brain damaged.” I found that a little strange, and I still can’t find any place where I wrote that. I do, however, view a lot of behavioral and temperamental issues as being due to developmental differences between people, both the more typical and the less typical.

Lots of people are damaged in lots of different ways due to the way we are constructed and the way our anatomy develops. Our upright posture is a fairly new evolutionary development compared to our 4 legged ancestors, and lots of people pay the price in the form of back pain as a result. Are sufferers of sciatica going to argue that they are suffering from damage? I think the answer is obvious, and I think that the remarks attacking my own remarks should be directed to those who have used the term “brain damaged” as a slighting remark, ie: to imply some form of mental inferiority. I see remarks like that routinely in the rantings of right wing radio hosts, one of whom wrote the book with the title Liberalism is a Mental Illness. The usage and intent are obvious in this example, and if the author had used the term brain damaged, I would also have reacted angrily to that usage.

One other comment: Rhandi Paige was not the regular commenter I was referring to. Paige was not the one who called me a troll or a defender of homophobes etc etc. It was, in fact, a regular commenter. I’m simply avoiding typing the screen name of that person in capital letters because I’m not interested in getting into flame wars.

There is another large subject which I may wish to write about on another site. This is the tension between the idea of vaccine as personal preventive medicine and the idea of vaccine as a social duty in the sense of participating in herd immunity. I think for most of us (and most parents), the basic idea was to get your kid (ie: me) immunized against polio so that the kid wouldn’t end up wearing leg braces. I know several people who had polio before there was a Salk vaccine, and some of them still suffer from its effects. I don’t think that when parents were putting their children in line to get a polio shot, that they were thinking about herd immunity or the eventual eradication of the disease. They were thinking about the paperboy down on the corner who had to use crutches. I would suspect that the concept of herd immunity is mostly foreign to most people even now, and that may be because the concept has not been explained very well to the public. There is a little bit of mathematics involved when you start to calculate whether an infection flare will grow or will damp down, so I can see how the typical news reporter will avoid that part of the story.

Jay said: “I have changed my mind. I give more vaccines than I used to…I have changed my opinions and the way I care for children and families.”

So…how has your practice changed, apart from your statement that you give some MMRs? Which vaccines do you prescribe that you didn’t before, and how often? Do you space them out or just not give complete series? Are they given as part of good medical practice or because parents browbeat you into doing it? As you consider the current recommended vaccine schedule “very wrong” and that it “endangers” children, what is your evidence that the Jay Gordon Schedule is very correct and does not endanger children (“it’s my opinion” doesn’t count)?

Jay does alter his pitch over time – for instance he’s apparently dropped his formaldehyde-in-vaccines rant, though now he’s riffing on Aluminum Toxicity. It’s not so much that he’s changed his tune, but that he’s presenting variations on the same theme, hoping to get a pat on the back from advocates of evidence-based medicine while retaining his aura among antivaxers. It must be one hell of a difficult balancing act. 🙂

@DB – we certainly never want doctors to ignore their “gut” but use that “gut” with good scientific evidence to be a better advocate for their patients……Dr. Jay, just using his “gut” without good scientific evidence, isn’t practicing good medicine – that kind of medicine went out the window over 100 years ago….and for good reason.

@ Jay Gordon:

Your last two remarks directed at me are lacking in *civility*.

“@lilady: You are wrong. It’s like people who pull the pharma-shill gambit on ORAC. I do not do what I do because of the money. There are far more profitable ways to practice medicine or to use the Internet. You are wrong, mean, and not much fun to read.”

and,

“@lilady: Prevnar?? I give the vaccine occasionally. I sincerely feel that we’re going to see, as we did with the Prevnar 7, complete replacement of those serotypes with new more dangerous serotypes. Vaccines are not the answer to S. pneumo. The Prevnar 13 has been in wide use for about three years. No where near long enough to really assess safety of efficacy. Nonetheless, to copy and paste from your previous post:

Here again for the umpteenth time, Jay’s opinion about Prevnar vaccine..

“The Prevnar vaccine is too new for me to recommend. The number of cases of Pneumococcal ear infections which could be prevented is very small and the number of cases of meningitis prevented is also small. I have no quarrel with doctors who recommend the shot or with parents who choose to get it. I have very strong objections to advertising this immunization to the general public on television. I don’t think enough information can be disseminated in 60 seconds.” (Emphasis added)

The above is a really sensible and moderate statement and you still choose to unleash your venom….”

Why don’t you answer my questions about the PCV 7 and PCV 13 vaccines? I provided you with a line listing of studies from PubMed http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=s.+pneumoniae+invasive+disease+13+valent+vaccine that disproves your theory (excuses) for not recommended S. Pneumoniae vaccines, since the first 7 valent vaccine was licensed 13 years ago (because) the vaccine “is too new for me to recommend”. Show us where the licensing of the 7 valent Prevnar vaccine has set the stage for IPDs caused by “new more dangerous serotypes”, not contained in the Prevnar -7 vaccine.

Try to be truthful Dr. Jay, by copying and pasting abstracts from recent “Pediatrics” journal that are behind pay walls or copying and pasting paragraphs from the S. Pneumoniae section from the current online edition of AAA “Red Book”…to prove your theories.

BTW Jay, your *assumption* that my son had leukemia or a solid tumor is wrong…even if he had undergone treatment for these cancers before 1995 he would have received VZIG following exposure to a varicella case as post-exposure prophylaxis

@Brian (lilady and Chris, too) -look at this child (Saba) and it’s quite obvious that this healthy child suffered some severe effects (perhaps brain damage) from her fluvax shot (presumably the Australian docs and surveillance groups agree). It was mentioned that all subjects were healthy prior to immunisation. They noted that clinical trials were not even completed to get it to market quicker. Such a shame.
http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/kids-get-banned-fluvax-vaccine/story-fnhocxo3-1226625149176

@Stu

You raise some good points, but you forgot one thing. Will changing tone stop him whinging about people being mean, leading him with only the near of the arguments to focus on? Yes. Well, more likely, anyway. The goal is to take away his excuses for not answering the questions poised to him. You

How is one anecdote supposed to topple all of the years of safety data?

@jen, I see your useless anecdote and raise you another:

look at this woman and it’s quite obvious that this healthy woman suffered some severe effects (like death) from drinking water (as all doctors and pathologists agree). It was mentioned that she was healthy prior to drinking water. They noted that clinical trials were not even completed to get water to market quicker. Such a shame.

h_ttp://www.nbcnews.com/id/16614865/ns/us_news-life/t/woman-dies-after-water-drinking-contest/#.UXXDn6JR9CM

http://tallguywrites.livejournal.com/148012.html
this says it all

Stu, your link didn’t work and I think there’s a different burden of safety for someone when they are given a medical intervention (and they are healthy). Water? I notice Chris and lilady have not commented on Saba yet…

@ Brian, this looks to be one of the more recent links.
http://www.westaustralianmedicalnegligence.com/tags/saba-button/

dingo199, you are kidding me?!!!! You refer to the fact that this case is from 2 years ago to just write it off?! Pathetic. MI Dawn and Chris, save your mock sympathy. You view this poor kid as an “anecdote.” I”ve heard enough.
http://sababutton.org/sabas-story

@jen: Oh hai, monster, I have a few anecdotes for you.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/22/flu-toll-children/2007551/

I actually bought Jay Gordon’s “Preventing Autism” book to see what random untested theories-as-fact concepts may next be spoken of in my exam rooms by fully gulled parents. The idea of having buffed up sperm, in and of itself seems interesting. But after reading that chapter (ch 8) of his book, I looked back to his “References” section, and THERE ARE NO REFERENCES FOR HOW TO BUFF UP YOUR SPERM!!!!. FYI all the other chapters have references but this one. Oh, please tell me you didn’t make this all up, Dr. Gordon. I was so psyched about all that was advocated for spermatopia, but now I see no references. Egads (so much for proofreading, something that is much more likely to happen with PEER REVIEW), now I’ll just be left with my usual Homer-Simpsonesque two-headed swimmers. 🙁

Chris Hickie, MD, PhD

Dr. Gordon, Stu linked to a news article that over a hundred kids have died from influenza, the actual disease, this year in the USA. How is it insensitive?

Jen (and Dr. Gordon), can you tell us how the MMR vaccine caused enough autism in the UK that it was noticed in less than a decade (1988-1998), but that effect was not noticed in over twenty years of use in the USA, a much larger country, after it was introduced there in 1971? Why would it happen only after 1988, and not after 1978 when the MMR vaccine was the preferred vaccine for the American Measles Elimination Program?

@jay

Clutch your pearls somewhere else and stop tone trolling.

And why won’t you answer Chris’ question? Try answering it in three posts, or we can all assume that you do not know anything about vaccines.

Jay,

Aside from that a pediatrician is a generalist to me*, you’re using labels to side-step the point.

Sorry, but I’m seeing weasel words.

“I interpret recommendations and implement the best possible care.” – but you’ve shown here, by your own words, that you offer your opinion, not medical science’s recommendations — two very different things.

“I also individualize my use of vaccines” – what do you mean by “individualize” – per person, per vaccine, per environment? This sounds like a word to shuffle your opinion under when it differs from medicinal advice.

—
* My distinction was by type of disease or organ; pediatrician is general practice over an age group.

novalox:

And why won’t you answer Chris’ question?

Dr. Gordon did answer my first question after I asked it four times. He did not understand why vaccines being 17th in list of 20 was significant to him continuing to use the “Big Pharma” ploy.

I really do not like the “companies who make product actually get paid for it” complaint, when that product actually saves money. It is kind of like complaining that paint companies make money by selling paint, when in truth the paint does protect the exterior of a house more than just leaving the wood unfinished.

He has not posted since I posted the second question.

@Khani: “Like many other people, I primarily get the vaccines to protect old people or small children I come into contact with”

You’re a generous person. I get them to protect myself, but I’m happy that they also protect others. Well, except for tetanus. That one I get exclusively to protect myself.

#390 I like being able to cuddle babies without worrying about making them sick, too.

One of the things that seems to said about diseases like influenza, measles, and the like is that “healthy people don’t have to worry about them.” Now, I suppose there may be some truth to that. After all, only about 1 in 1000 children who catch measles have serious complications. That number varies for other diseases, naturally. Additionally, not everyone who is presumed to be exposed to the disease develops it. When asked why some people don’t get sick, some get sick but recover, some have serious complications, and some die (which is considered a serious complication by some), it would appear there are two explanations:

1. The people who got less sick did something right that prevented them from getting sick.

2. The course of the disease is subject to a variety of factors, some of which are understood, some of which are predictable, and some of which are neither.

Hindsight being what it is, if you believe explanation 1 then it’s quite easy to tell who was truly healthy – if you were healthy, you didn’t get serious complications or die.

MESSAGE BEGINS—————————-

Shills, Minions, and Assorted Rabble:

Perhaps you can help your old Overlord with a little insight into what makes some of your fellow monkeys tick. Now, I’ve been subjugating and bribing your kind for the better part of a terran century, and while I spend most of my time on “administrative” duties, I am a decent observer of behaviour under duress.

Well, I just don’t understand this Gordon character that keeps popping up here. He always seems so . . . unhappy. What exactly does he want here? Why does he return? For instance, I really rather hate cheese. It’s an absolute horror. I would rather eat the droppings of a Haavk’cht Rift Lumberer than be in the same room with a plate of gelatinous, disgusting Cannon Bear, or whatever it’s called. Now, mind you, the Rothschilds simply live on it, so you can imagine how many nasal filters I go through during one of the Baron’s endless marathons of whist. In any case, I dislike it and I avoid it’s offensiveness.

There is a point to this . . . oh yes, the Gordon creature. He seems to hate being in the midst of our happy, little band of species traitors, reptilians and the like and yet he seems unable to resist, showing up with the dreadful inevitability of an unloved season.
Oh, it usually starts out well enough, but surely he knows where things will go. He knows that eventually he shall be pressed for facts, and that the language will become increasingly colorful (commendations to Cadre Leader Class XV Elburto), and that all of his slightly-too-sincere, mawkish overtures will be for naught. And yet he comes back. Again, and again, and again. What was it the great Glaxxon philosoraptor Ech’pnäak said? “Schv’aat chuk m’veet Glaxxon’vah sssvanx ott, v’maat hokk chuk vhallkra chuk beeth.” This translates somewhat less elegantly as, “It’s a sad Glaxxon who does that which fails/sinks repeatedly only to expect differing outcomes.”
Honestly, if he were Glaxxon, I’d swear he was flirting with you . . .

Well, do drop some kernels of wisdom on this subject, I’ve got some homeopaths to dissec . . . I mean, gently question.

Lord Draconis Zeneca, VH7ihL
Foreward Mavoon of the Great Fleet, Pharmaca Magna of Terra, Played a Doctor on TV

Glaxxon PharmaCOM Pediatric Division
0001111010111010110110101010101

——————————–MESSAGE ENDS

Have the parents instituted a lawsuit for what they claim are vaccine-injuries?

They had an attorney in 2011, at least. As of last week, they had yet to file.

I think Dr. Jay has flitted away…again. Poor Jay, he keeps lurking here, posts a *civil* comment or two…then *wonders* why we treat him as the fact-free, citation-less drive-by poster he has become. Lord Draconis wonders why Dr. Jay keeps coming back. (Dare I venture an opinion about possible masochism being his motivation?)

There’s another video up at AoA with Andy talking about peanut allergies as a not-too-effective seque into anaphylaxis caused by measles-containing vaccines. He’s really desperate to have a debate about the measles outbreak in Wales. Jay should be viewing it right about now, to get some *pointers* to explain his view on the *under reported dangers of MMR vaccine” and his “selective vaccination policies”.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2013/04/andrew-wakefield-questions-for-salisbury-measles-anaphylaxis.html

@Jay:

MMR: Enough anecdotal evidence to convince me that 1-2% of children are severely adversely affected by this vaccine. I think it’s safer for five year olds than for one year olds.

As you well know, the plural of anecdote is not data. Also, so you’re happy to have children from the ages of 2-5 at risk for measles and later complications like SSPE?
Even if we accept your 1-2% of children at risk (I don’t), not vaccinating and delaying vaccines are not risk free options either.

@lilady – That new Wakefield video’s quite something… I’ve scribbled a few thoughts down…

http://jabsloonies.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/andrew-wakefield-moves-goalposts-and.html

MMR: Enough anecdotal evidence to convince me that 1-2% of children are severely adversely affected by this vaccine. I think it’s safer for five year olds than for one year olds. Again, no proof claimed, just evidence and my confirmation bias.

That would be approximately 40,000-80,000 children “severely adversely affected”. Care to qualify this Dr. Jay?

I’d be curious why he’s sticking around this time.

My guess is that since he is no longer the darling of the Wakefield worshippers, he’s trying to cosy up to the sceptics by feigning some ability to learn whilst maintaining his dearly-held anti-vaxx dogma.

Jay: “I also individualize my use of vaccines.
Jay: “I give (Prevnar) when asked.”

Anyone else having a hard time reconciling these two statements? Jay seems to have no coherent rationale for his (relatively rare) usage of vaccines, no organized schedule, nothing but his intuition and confirmation biases – but he’s willing to override even those to please parents.

He announced on his website that he doesn’t give the MMR vaccine, and remains convinced that it has horrific effects in 1-2% of recipients, yet has lately been giving it to some of his patients even though he doesn’t see a need for it unless an epidemic breaks out.

This strikes me as a very confused and contradictory element of Jay’s pediatrics practice.

Isn’t it high time for Jay to put together coherent guidelines on immunization and update his practice (and website) accordingly?

What I want to know is since Jay doesn’t give the MMR vaccine until the parents twist his arm, how he comes by sufficient anecdotes to put a hard percentage on side effects.

Does anyone else find Dr. Gordon’s continual “I run a breastfeeding practice” assertion a bit creepy?

Dr. Jay: Make certain that you provide use of the varicella vaccine during the 1970s and 1980s in the United States for individuals being treating for leukemia and solid tumors…not children with pancytopenia.

There are “Compassionate Use” or “Treatment Use” exemptions, whereby a clinician can administer an unapproved drug, but it must be under the auspices of a clinical trial. So, if Jay was giving the vaccine before 1995, those patients should have been enrolled in clinical trials. He would have had to obtain a treatment IND exemption. Even then, a treatment IND must meet certain requirements:

There are four requirements that must be met before a treatment IND can be issued: 1) the drug is intended to treat a serious or immediately life-threatening disease; 2) there is no satisfactory alternative treatment available; 3) the drug is already under investigation, or trials have been completed; and 4) the trial sponsor is actively pursuing marketing approval.

We’ll wait and see how Jay managed to give an unapproved drug to patients.

While we’re mentioning Jay Gordon’s inconsistencies and incoherent medical policies, here’s another: Jay thinks physicians and the news media exaggerate the need for pertussis vaccination, and while he thinks it can be a nasty illness, he confidently states that it is treatable with antibiotics like azithromycin.

http://drjaygordon.com/vaccinations/pertussis-tylenol-recall-and-more.html

While Jay is strident on the subject of vaccines doing harm, it seems to have escaped him that azithromycin has been in the news recently over its potential for severe side effects (there’s a long list, including but not limited to cardiac arrhythmias, kidney disease and potentially fatal liver failure):

h_tp://voices.yahoo.com/zithromax-side-effects-concerns-taking-azithromycin-6357828.html

This is a drug Jay gives infants and young children with pertussis, instead of protecting them from getting sick in the first place via vaccination? Something isn’t right here.

I dunno. I kind of enjoy watching lilady use him as her own personal Kong.

OK…dog toy joke aside…as a layperson, I am profoundly disturbed by the “my opinion” “my belief” “I think that” leitmotif that runs through all of this man’s responses. It scares me, really.

In my former line of work, we used to accuse those who tossed established tactics and doctrine out of the window in order to wing it of “John Wayne-ing.” As in engaging in self-aggrandizing, arrogant theatrics. Perhaps that is the case here.

(oh, and petition signed)

^ Prevnar 7 was licensed 13 years ago (2000) and Prevnar 13 was licensed 3 years ago (2010).

In my former line of work, we used to accuse those who tossed established tactics and doctrine out of the window in order to wing it of “John Wayne-ing.”

“You know what the definition of a hero is? Someone who gets other people killed.” Zoe, in Serneity

lilady, I didn’t notice any comment on Saba’s situation by yourself. I suppose you will just write her off (as with all the others who have suffered a serious vaccine side effect) as ‘anedotes.’ You linked to Liz Ditz’s blog about the Menafrivac situation. I have heard reports (by C. England) that many of the parents were paid off and government officials were replaced. I honestly don’t know what the truth is but I still do not feel I know. I am certainly not convinced that everything was just fine by Ditz’s article. I don’t need to apologize for anything.

@jen

And you still didn’t apologize for your use of a sock-puppet.

Hypocrite much?

@jen: “I suppose you will just write her off (as with all the others who have suffered a serious vaccine side effect) as ‘anedotes.’”

Did you get a chance to look at the article I linked in response? You know, the one about 105 children dying of the flu in a single season?

Any thoughts?

@ORAC: If I spend all my time talking with people who agree with me I don’t learn much. (Frightening to think how ignorant I might be if I didn’t stop in at RI from time to time. The anger and fierce feelings displayed here remind me that I have to keep an open mind.

I could never say, as lilady does: “- Your “personal impression[s]” (without) “proof” are not valid.”

Yes, they are, lilady.

Dr. Hickie, I’ve noticed that you’ve resigned from the AAP. Not really a great idea if you want to make changes. The AAP’s “confiding” in you that they don’t try to stop me because they’re afraid of being sued is just plain wrong. The AAP tolerates differences of opinion. It’s a large tent.

@DrBollocks: Yes, I am very much compelled to keep listening to parents.

Prior to licensure there were IRB approved protocols for using chicken pox vaccine and at the same time the manufacturer provided the vaccine for non-immune parents and health care practitioners. http://www.unc.edu/depts/spice/dis/ICHE-1996-Oct-p694.pdf
Look at references 51-58.
But . . . this is apparently not relevant to the child described above.

Antibiotics do not change the course of pertussis except to eliminate or diminish contagion.

A few of you appear actually practice medicine. In real life it’s a lot more complex than it is on a blog site like this one.

Jay

@ jen: I made a simple honest statement about Saba Button and the type of Fluvax vaccine used in Australia two years ago. I also questioned if her parents have instituted a lawsuit for “vaccine damages”.

You now commented again about the MenAfriVac meningitis vaccine, using *impeccable sources* (Christina England and AoA)…

“You linked to Liz Ditz’s blog about the Menafrivac situation. I have heard reports (by C. England) that many of the parents were paid off and government officials were replaced. I honestly don’t know what the truth is but I still do not feel I know. I am certainly not convinced that everything was just fine by Ditz’s article. I don’t need to apologize for anything.”

Here are real impeccable sources..

http://www.meningvax.org/files/MVPstatement_10Jan2013_EN.pdf

http://www.meningvax.org/files/2ndstatementMoHChad_21Jan2013.pdf

Read the second statement carefully jen. If you need any explanation about mass hysteria and conversion disorders, I’ll be happy to explain those disorders. (Similar to the mass hysteria and conversion disorders experienced by the Leroy New York school children after receiving HPV vaccines…and the BFD crappy epidemiology study conducted by the *science journalists* at AoA).

@ novalox:

“@jen

And you still didn’t apologize for your use of a sock-puppet.

Hypocrite much?”

Correction novalox: “jen” has used at least two sock puppets to post on RI; Dr. Dent and Sick Sauce.

Hypocrite extraordinaire!

I could never say, as lilady does: “- Your “personal impression[s]” (without) “proof” are not valid.”

Yes, they are, lilady.

What exactly makes your personal impressions valid, Dr. Jay? Or perhaps more to the point what makes them more valid than the body of evidence arguing against their supposed validity?

You linked to Liz Ditz’s blog about the Menafrivac situation. I have heard reports (by C. England) that many of the parents were paid off and government officials were replaced. I honestly don’t know what the truth is but I still do not feel I know. I am certainly not convinced that everything was just fine by Ditz’s article.

So, basically, you’re willing to resort to England’s conspiracy theory to try to pretend this sparkly antivax toy didn’t break shortly after being taken from its wrappings? Obviously, she has to, since she provided it in the first place and simply does not admit to being wrong under any circumstances (unless she’s corrected her claim that there is a “government of Africa“), but that doesn’t mean you have to insist that maybe the tricycle wasn’t supposed to have wheels in the first place.

@Jay: “I could never say, as lilady does: “- Your “personal impression[s]” (without) “proof” are not valid.”

Yes, they are, lilady.”

So let me get this straight, Jay. You are admitting your views are unscientific. They are anecdotal, and when it comes to vaccine side effects not even first-hand. You are committed to taking a parent’s word over that of established research.

If I were a car salesman, and was walking down the street. If I saw a car crash where someone was injured by their seat belt (e.g. wearing it wrong, defective seat belt, wearing a 3-pointer over a pregnant belly), in your world, I would be more than justified in removing all seatbelts from all the cars I sell forever more — unless, of course, the customer specifically requests them.

Simple question, Jay. Would you find that acceptable for me to do, yes or no?

Actually, amend that to read “if I were a car salesman and HEARD of a car crash…”

@ Dr. Gordon:

How *uncivil* of you Dr. Jay, to post this at Orac…

@ORAC: If I spend all my time talking with people who agree with me I don’t learn much. (Frightening to think how ignorant I might be if I didn’t stop in at RI from time to time. The anger and fierce feelings displayed here remind me that I have to keep an open mind.

I could never say, as lilady does: “- Your “personal impression[s]” (without) “proof” are not valid.”

(Cue to Orac now, for his statement about “keeping an open mind”)

You replied to Dr. Bullocks, instead of me, with this statement:

“Prior to licensure there were IRB approved protocols for using chicken pox vaccine and at the same time the manufacturer provided the vaccine for non-immune parents and health care practitioners. http://www.unc.edu/depts/spice/dis/ICHE-1996-Oct-p694.pdf
Look at references 51-58.
But . . . this is apparently not relevant to the child described above.

Antibiotics do not change the course of pertussis except to eliminate or diminish contagion.

A few of you appear actually practice medicine. In real life it’s a lot more complex than it is on a blog site like this one.”

Gee Dr. Jay, thanks for that link, and the reference to 51-58. Did you happen to *miss* that the vaccine was only provided to individuals who were healthy during clinical trials”

Doesn’t this citation disprove all the statements in your comments upthread about the varicella vaccine being available during the 1970s-1980s for leukemia and solid tumor patients?

Jay at # 260:

“@lilady: The varicella vaccine was available in the mid-seventies. If your son is over forty, I’m sorry it was not available to him. It is a good vaccine for higher risk children. For heaven’s sakes, no one believes in “culling of the herd”–your posts are becoming more and more problematic”

Jay @ # 279

“@lilady: The vaccine became available in the mid-1970s and was used in special circumstances in the USA and elsewhere all throughout the seventies and eighties. The manufacturer supplied it upon request during that time. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/73844”

Jay @ # 288:

“@Chris: We used the vaccine in 1977 and beyond. I used that vaccine during those years for non-immune adults and children who were immunocompromised. It became increasingly difficult to get it from the manufacturer in the eighties. Ask an old pediatrician.

Notice the silence when one of you says something really wrong.”

Jay @ # 337

“@Darwy: I’m sorry to be repetitive, but the vaccine was available and used in pediatric oncology patients in the USA in the 1970s and for non-immune adults in the seventies and eighties. The manufacturer supplied it. Again, I was there, I administered that vaccine many times.”

Jay @ # 344

“I honestly have no idea how to prove that the vaccine was given at major pediatric oncology centers in the USA in the 1970s and also no idea how to do the research or find the industry documents about compassionate use for non-immune adults for the 15-20 years prior to USA licensure. It was a small answer to one of the posters above. But 100% true.”

Jay @ # 401

“Citations for the pre-licensure of chicken pox vaccine as soon as I can get them.”

So Dr. Jay…still no admission from you that you were *mistaken* about the “compassionate use” of the varicella vaccine during the 1970s-1980s for patients diagnosed with leukemia or solid cancerous tumors?

I’m beginning to wonder about your memory when you emphatically stated that you gave varicella vaccines to immune suppressed individuals during the 1970s-1980s.

Jay Gordon @436:
I could never say, as lilady does: “- Your “personal impression[s]” (without) “proof” are not valid.”

Here from an earlier thread is Dr Gordon telling a mother that her personal impressions are not valid:

Kristen, what you’re describing is not medically possible […] Your child did not experience a 23% weight loss.

A few of you appear actually practice medicine. In real life it’s a lot more complex than it is on a blog site like this one.

What about scientists? we drive very complicated issues for which you don’t seem to be aware. Furthermore, I have been accepted to write reviews for the Cochrane collaboration; you know, finding efficient treatments for major illnesses. I guess I’ll have a really good look on how complicated medicine is.

Alain

@herr doktor bimmler:

What we have to understand is that Jay’s personal impressions count, whereas those of others only count when they agree with Jay. He is a special snowflake that way.

But…herr doktor bimler…Dr. Jay must have been having a bad day. Dr. Jay, who lectures us on *civility*, would never, ever, stoop so low to accuse a parent of “fibbing”.

Denice, you just reminded me of an unpleasant experience I had a few years ago, that I don’t remember mentioning here before. For reasons that now escape me I joined a Yahoo group run by a woman who had some odd ideas about autism, its causes and its effective treatment. IIRC she claimed that it was all about vitamin D, calcium metabolism and acidosis.

What I do remember is that she encouraged her acolytes to get their children’s blood and urine tested and post the results, so she could play amateur doctor (she was taking evening classes in some medical related subject) and make suggestions for treatment. Since this is something I know a bit about, I was horrified by what I saw.

For example she told one parent that their child had impaired renal function on the basis of perfectly normal results (a low serum creatinine and normal urea led to a low GFR).

My favorite was her interpreting calcium and alkaline phosphatase results based on adult reference ranges, and telling parents their children had bone metabolism disorders and hypercalcemia – children have higher serum calcium and much higher alkaline phosphatase results because their bones are growing – and required a low calcium diet (I kid you not).

She also did a nice line in telling people that results were high or low when they were within the reference range. She was a great example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

I did point this out to her in no uncertain terms, but she censored my posts, and it didn’t seem to do much good. When I saw her recommending OSR#1 I gave up on her as beyond help and quit. I sometimes think I should have done more, like report her to someone, but its a bit late now I guess.

@Science Mom: The DTaP vaccine doesn’t work as well as we thought, doesn’t last as long as we thought and has put pressure on the bacterium and we’re going to need a new vaccine soon. I give kids that vaccine pretty much every day. As I’ve said before I just don’t think we give vaccines as safely as we could and I’d like to see that change.

@ Krebiozen:

Amongst those I survey, it is common for non-doctors to provide ‘protocols’ for illness while simultaneously scoffing at SBM ( see Mike Adams/ Talkback @ PRN): I’d guess that that encourages the faithful to ‘strike out on their own’ , using remedies suggested by an herbalist, nutritionist, ND or via personal experimentation- like in the olden days, where folk wisdom provided cures and every Wise Woman could take care of her own problems and her children’s un-assisted.

The stress on natural cures and on cherished archaicism – (and let’s not forget ,”Let food be your medicine”):- are the foundation: alt med mavens then select quasi- medical providers to assist them in their vision quest of “recovering” their child/ curing their illness. Some of the sites I list ‘hook-up’ client and provider and/ or self-practitioner and literature/ supplies.

On a lighter note:
I’ve been searching high and low for my own ancient book of wisdom – “The Golden Bough”- can’t fnd it anywhere.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20823436

@LW: We ended up with more 19A because of the PCV7. It’s possible that nothing like this will occur because of the PCV13 but it might.

@Grant: No, it’s a paraphrase from this CDC report.

http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/19/3/12-1475_article.htm

We have analyzed the evolution of the bacterial population under vaccine pressure, using pulsed-field gel electrophoresis, genotyping, microarrays, and tests for virulence factor expression (5–9). Immunity induced by the whole-cell pertussis vaccine controlled the circulation of vaccine-type isolates but not all types of isolates (5,6). The isolates remaining in circulation are as virulent as those circulating during the prevaccine era (7–9). Since the introduction of acellular pertussis vaccines, the number of B. pertussis and B. parapertussis isolates collected that do not express pertactin (PRN), which is used as a vaccine antigen (7–11), has steadily increased.

Denice,

Amongst those I survey, it is common for non-doctors to provide ‘protocols’ for illness while simultaneously scoffing at SBM

This seemed a bit different, a sort of cargo cult medical science, using legitimate diagnostic tools but grossly misinterpreting them.

I hope your sacred tome turns up.

#440

I learned in various philosophy classes that personal experiences are not arguments. So I suppose I wouldn’t bother denying them or confirming them; they’re simply not relevant to the issue of what Dr. Gordon believes. We need his arguments, not his experiences.

I still haven’t seen any of those, given that he clearly and explicitly states the anecdotes are equal on each side.

I don’t really believe that, but if he *does*, that means he should be suspended in the middle, and is clearly allowing some other argument to be his reason for retaining his current view.

I would like to know what that other argument–which is not anecdote and is not any science–is.

Thanks. It’s around somewhere. Who would take it?

Its seven-year reign was over. It has been displaced by some younger, more virile book.

“…showing up with the dreadful inevitability of an unloved season.”

Did… did our beloved Reptilian Pharma Overlord just say, “WINTER IS COMING”??? I think I am in Pharma-Shill love! 😀

observing an increase – no ‘d’ – sorry.

@Dr. Gordon, thank you also for the link to the pertussis paper.

I noticed some interesting things in that paper:

As early as 1959, whole-cell pertussis vaccine was used intensively in France for primary vaccination of infants at 3–5 months of age and for the first booster at 24 months (1). This vaccine program resulted in a dramatic decrease in the incidence of pertussis among young children. Acellular pertussis vaccines (2- and 3–component vaccines) were introduced in 1998 as boosters for vaccinated adolescents and were rapidly adopted for primary vaccination of infants. These vaccines replaced whole-cell pertussis vaccines in 2005, changing herd immunity by specifically targeting the virulence of the bacteria (2,3).

Since the introduction of acellular pertussis vaccines, the number of B. pertussis and B. parapertussis isolates collected that do not express pertactin (PRN), which is used as a vaccine antigen (7–11), has steadily increased. The proportion of PRN-negative (PRN–) isolates to the total number of isolates collected each year increased from 2% in 2005 to 14% in 2012 (8), indicating that PRN– isolates are transmissible.

Has there been a dramatic increase in pertussis among the vaccinated, so as to wipe out the dramatic decrease described above? I don’t think so. Also it appears that one could always go back to the whole-cell vaccine or target a different antigen to control the PRN- isolates. Moreover,

Vaccination was associated with less severe clinical symptoms (Table 2): the proportion of hospitalizations in intensive care units was significantly lower in the vaccinated group (p = 0.001). Clinical symptoms, such as apnea, syncope, cyanosis, and deterioration of general condition, were also less frequent in the vaccinated group (Table 2). This confirms previous findings (12) indicating that infants who receive 1 or 2 doses of pertussis vaccine are protected to some extent.

So infants are still better off if they’ve been vaccinated.

And … wait … since when has Dr. Gordon been concerned about shaping his personal vaccine schedule with any consideration for the benefit of society?

@ LW: Ask Dr. Jay if he and his staff have received the Tdap vaccine, which is recommended for all HCWs and others who have contact with infants under one year of age. 🙂

@ Dangerous Bacon: See my post at # 156 and the text of Dr. Jay’s speech at the 2008 “Green Our Vaccines” rally…

““When I get a dose of mercury in a flu shot, well I wouldn’t, if I were to get a dose of mercury in a flu shot, or aluminum, that’s bad enough, but does anybody believe that that same amount of aluminum or that same amount of mercury think those things are safe for a 25 pound toddler? Aluminum! There is still mercury in many common vaccines, but aluminum, there’s enough aluminum in there to cause harm. The FDA puts a ceiling, a limit, of about 50 micrograms a day. Aluminum irritates cells, it irritates brain cells. Maybe some of you are aware of aluminum because of the possible and the plausable connection to Alzheimers Disease.”

– Has Jay changed his mind about seasonal influenza vaccine for himself…and for his patients?

– Did Dr. Jay have himself and his staff tested for immunity against varicella…once the varicella vaccine was licensed in the United States in 1995? Did he pay for the vaccine for anyone who works for him who was not immune to the virus?

– Have Dr. Jay and his staff received Tdap vaccines?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Dr Jay said, “See refs 51-58”

That’s nice Dr. Jay – I happen to have those papers. I had them before you went looking for them.

The Arbeter paper was a clinical trial of 90 healthy children – this was first performed to test for safety and efficacy before moving on to clinical trials in leukaemia patients. Clinical reactions were monitored up until day 22 and lymphocyte proliferation responses were monitored up to 6 weeks post vaccination.

The other studies reflect ~500 pediatric leukaemia patients who were enrolled in clinical trials between 1980-1985.

As Todd W. has pointed out – the chances of you being able to ‘request’ a varicella vaccine from the manufacturer outside of the clinical trial group… is very, very small. I expect the KC Chiefs will win the World Series before that occurs.

@ Jay Gordon, #449:

I call bull on “not having your own schedule”

You don’t publish your own schedule, but you have repeatedly said that you don’t think infants should be vaccinated before 6 months of age, which IS your own schedule (it is sure not the CDC/AAP schedule or that of any pediatrician who has seen neonates and infants seriously ill/die from pertussis and meningitis)

I would have thought, given your age, that you would have seen and remembered and learned from such illnesses and deaths from pertussis and meningitis during your younger years as a resident and newly-minted pediatrician. I’ve seen one toddler during my residency (an unvaccinated 2 year-old) die from Hib meningitis/sepsis, and that was good enough to re-remind me of why we need to vaccinate. The more senior pediatric attending physicians told me it was a lot worse in the days before there were vaccines for these diseases

I shudder to think of seeing a return to the “days of old” if every parent took your advice not to vaccinate until their infant was 6 months old.

You do understand that we don’t see vaccine-preventable diseases because we vaccinate against them? And you do realize that if we stop vaccinating, we will (and are) starting to see these diseases return?

And yet you rail on about vaccine safety/efficacy, Dr. Gordon, as though vaccines are some sort of snake oil, when they are, undeniably, one of if not the most important health advances of the 20th century. You live in a bizarro world, and I wish to h*ll you’d stop trying to drag all my families into it with your lies and deceits.

Chris Hickie, MD, PhD

@ Brian Deer:

“ferocity of debate”? Here?

What is the record for most comments? Because we’re about to hit 500.

I do hope that it doesn’t go over 9,000!!!

@Dr. Jay, @lilady: who are you? She is a bully who engages in tracking (cyber-stalking). She tried to have Kent Heckenlively in trouble with his job due to his beliefs. She has mentioned your staff and their actions. Her name is known to those at his schoolboard, presumably.
@Brian Deer- be a real reporter.

As I’ve said before I just don’t think we give vaccines as safely as we could and I’d like to see that change.

And again I’m moved to ask why you don’t think we give vaccines as safely as we could and change is needed? Surely you have some actual, evidentiary basis for your conclusion (i.e., something other than anecdotal accounts)?

I do hope that it doesn’t go over 9,000!!!

495 / 6 * (365 / 4) == 7528 and 1/8, range 6023 — 9033 🙂

Alain

If I were a pediatrician, and my clinical experience were sufficient to “convince me that 1-2% of children are severely adversely affected by this vaccine”, I do believe that I would regard it as my duty to document that experience and publish it in the scientific literature. Indeed, I would view every day that I failed in that duty to be allowing a hundred or more children to suffer through my neglect.

Dr. Gordon does not feel that way.

@lilady:

@ LW: Ask Dr. Jay if he and his staff have received the Tdap vaccine, which is recommended for all HCWs and others who have contact with infants under one year of age.

He’s not real big on answering my questions. *I* on the other hand got my TDaP vaccine last summer.

I think we should have a Google hangout with Dr. Jay. Who’s with me?

@ Dr. Jay: What Darwy stated at post # 484, about having that paper “bookmarked” days before you posted it.

You never provided varicella vaccine under a compassionate use protocol for kids with leukemia and solid tumors, during the 1970s or 1980s. As I stated up thread the local health departments controlled the distribution of VZIG for post exposure prophylaxis.

@ Brian Deer: I’m constantly linking to your website on the other blogs I post on…especially in reply to the crank posters from AoA: 🙂

http://www.newstatesman.com/sci-tech/2013/04/giving-space-andrew-wakefield-mmr-isnt-balance-its-lunacy

@ jen: Still cyber-stalking me with incorrect (libelous), information?

“@Dr. Jay, @lilady: who are you? She is a bully who engages in tracking (cyber-stalking). She tried to have Kent Heckenlively in trouble with his job due to his beliefs. She has mentioned your staff and their actions. Her name is known to those at his schoolboard, presumably.

@Brian Deer- be a real reporter.”

Take a look at the actually emails I sent to the School Board President, Greg Marvel and members of the School Board (Posts # 23 through # 40) Take particular note of my post where I actually mention you…because you “assumed” I emailed these individuals using my ‘nym:

Do you see any mention of Kent Heckenlively in my emails?

https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2013/04/11/and-now-anne-frank-is-dragged-into-the-antivaccine-picture/

Jen, Brian Deer is a real reporter, who did a spectacular job of investigating Andrew Wakefield, Richard Barr and the JABS anti-vaccine group in the U.K., which referred parents of developmentally disabled children to that lawyer who was getting set to sue the manufacturers of the MMR vaccine.

Mr. Deer is the recipient of two journalism awards, which are the equivalent of Pulitzer awards for his excellent investigative journalism.

Jen a.k.a. Dr. Dent a.k.a. Sick Sauce…You really need another hobby and some professional help for your cyber stalking behaviors, because this one is not working out too well for you.

I have to tell you, if I could take a day off and just read and comment here I would. I know some of you think I’m BS’ing, but I really learn a lot here and I enjoy many aspects of these spirited discussions.

@Chris Hickie: I do not have a schedule for vaccinating. I have vaccinated two-month-olds whose parents were concerned about pertussis and pneumococcus and I have other families who have chosen not to ever vaccinate. If I had to mention an “average” family in the practice I’d tell you that they wait 6-36 months and then get a DTaP series. I recommend and push Varivax before age ten years if kids have contracted not chickenpox. More families are choosing to give their children the MMR vaccine. My second choice of vaccine series is the PCV13 but I have very little enthusiasm for that vaccine. Some, but not all teens and college age kids get meningococcal vaccine and hepatitis B vaccination. I recommend hepatitis A shots for more exotic travel and add an extra caution when people are traveling to places where medical care (eg. a tetanus booster) will not be easily available.

@Science Mom: No one can prove adverse effects from the MMR. I am stuck with anecdotes and observation. I have absolutely no need for you to agree and sure don’t blame you for seeing things very differently.

@Khani: I would value your experiences and your relating them to this group. Why would you place no value in my experience?

@LW: You may be right in both your comments. But, I do shape my vaccine practices for the benefit of society. We just disagree. You’re not “stupid” or “irresponsible” or . . . we just disagree.

@lillady: My staff is fully vaccinated. I do not require them all to receive influenza vaccines.

@Narad: Thank you

@Darwy: It happened. The chickenpox vaccine was available for non-immune adults prior to licensure.

@Brian Deer: I have read everything you’ve written. I’d love to know if you’re more accurate in depicting what happened than AW’s supporters. Your case is quite convincing but so is theirs.

@Bacon: The flu shot is not a good vaccine. Period. It’s all we’ve got so get it if you want. You know the Minnesota study.

@Ren: After 400, I get paid by the word.

@Politicalguineapig: Breastfeeding is not “admirable,” it saves more lives than any vaccine ever invented. [Citation needed here!!]

@jen: Thank you.

@JGC: Any “Princess Bride” reference gets my attention. I looked up “valid.” No anecdotes on vaccine safety. We shouldn’t give six at once. It’s expedient and economically brilliant but there are safer ways of immunizing.

@Beamup: No! My personal experience is not “more accurate” just worth considering. That’s all.

@LW: Good point. Not doable in any way shape or form, but a good point.

@Todd W.: First one has to get measles to be susceptible to the 15-40% hospitalization rate. Reasoning not worthy of your usually logical comments.

@Ren: I’m in.

@lilady: Again, who are you?

Alright. Everyone go take a crash course on Google Hangouts. It will either be a shout-fest worthy of Fox News or it will be a frank discussion worthy of CSPAN.

@Dr. Jay

Way back at comment #288 you said, “We used the vaccine in 1977 and beyond. I used that vaccine during those years for non-immune adults and children who were immunocompromised. It became increasingly difficult to get it from the manufacturer in the eighties”

Now you’re saying, “@Darwy: It happened. The chickenpox vaccine was available for non-immune adults prior to licensure.”

So, which is it, Dr. Jay?

Did you administer the vaccine to children in the 70’s, before it became available from Japan, and off from clinical trials?

Or now is it you gave it only to non-immune adults pre-1985 licensure by ‘special request’ to the vaccine manufacturer (despite it still being in clinical trial status at that time)?

@ Dr. Jay: “Again, who are you”?

You’re just a know-nothing pediatrician, whose “claim to fame” is predicated on being “the pediatrician to the stars” and who got his posterior whupped here.

You claim you deign to post here to teach us “civility”…need I remind you that you were not “civil” when you slammed Orac a while back, with your feeble attempt to derail a discussion about the Burzynski clinic?

https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2013/02/18/as-josh-duhamel-shills-for-the-burzynski-clinic-eric-merola-prepares-to-carpet-bomb-the-blogosphere-with-nonsense/

“Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP
February 18, 2013

“much the way that Leni Riefenstahl was”

David, Hitler? Really??

Having a really bad day there?

Cheer up: The influenza season is ending owed a to vibrant national vaccine policy.

AND, I changed my Twitter picture to the one showing me getting a hepatitis A vaccine prior to my trip to rural Ethiopia!

Jay”

You still have not acknowledged that you were unable to cough up the studies that back up your ludicrous *opinions* about the MMR, PCV and varicella vaccines, that are the basis of your immunization *policies*.

Seriously Jay, think about wearing a protective helmet when you play soccer…too many hits to the head, does have an effect on your thinking processes.

@Jay

First one has to get measles to be susceptible to the 15-40% hospitalization rate.

Which anyone who has either not been immunized or has not been infected previously is. Perhaps you haven’t noticed, but there have been a number of outbreaks of measles in recent years in the U.S. What was the status of the index cases? Not vaccinated and not immune! What was the status of the majority (and in some cases, all) of the cases in those outbreaks? Not vaccinated and not immune!

You see, when you do not recommend MMR, and especially when you take an attitude of “MMR is dangerous”, as you do rather frequently, immunization rates drop. When immunization rates drop and there are large numbers of susceptible people, conditions are ripe for outbreaks of disease.

Of course, as you’ve said before, those outbreaks are just “statistical porn” and hospitalizations can’t be for serious reasons. No. They must be “soft hospitalizations“.

Tell me, Dr. Gordon, in the current outbreak in Wales, which is now around 900 cases and over 80 hospitalizations and one suspected death, is that just “statistical porn”? Are those hospitalizations “soft”?

Now, about your evidence that 1%-2% of MMR recipients suffer severe adverse reactions. Pony up the evidence. If you cannot, then kindly retract your statement, don’t make that claim again and show us that you can change.