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“Vaccines: And now my kids don’t die.” I couldn’t have said it better myself.

I love this video. There’s really little else to say other than the tagline: “Vaccines: And now my kids don’t die.” Vaccines truly are a wonder drug. You know it’s good if Orac can’t construct a 3,000 word post around it and decides just to let the video speak for itself:

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

115 replies on ““Vaccines: And now my kids don’t die.” I couldn’t have said it better myself.”

“Even during moderate to severe scourges and plagues.”

The best part are the fine print disclaimers at the end.

Yo Orac,

Back in 1999 I first discovered the webcomic Penny Arcade. One day I discovered a strange add hovering at the top of their page, for a bizarre, Scientology-like cult called Eckankar. I emailed them about this and got a response back from Jerry Holkins explaining that they didn’t at the time control what sort of ads their ad network puts up. (Times have changed, Penny Arcade now has an international fanbase and, tellingly, they themselves have final approval on which ads go up.)

Reason why I mention this is because time goes on, ad networks get more aggressive, and their faux pas get weirder: I just saw an ad for Essiac on your blog.

Now that you have an international fan base, you might be able to have some pull as to a no-woo ad policy on your blog.

I do recall a bit of the panic in the 1950s before the Salk Vaccine when polio was endemic. Perhaps we should interview a few of the remaining parents of that generation to see how they felt about the arrival of the vaccine.

Jeff,

I too have been seeing Essiac banner ads for quite some time.

But wait, it gets better than that: over the past year there have been several ads for MMS and its component ingredients, as well as ads for “quantum jumping,” cancer clinics in Mexico, various psychics and energy healers and all manner of detox products. And probably other woo ads I’ve forgotten.

I look at it as ironic and a supreme waste of the advertisers’ money to have those ads placed here. In some cases I’ve actually learned about new forms of woo (like quantum jumping) of which I was previously unaware.

@ Lyle:

That’s a good point: if you read some of the anti-vax literature, you would think that polio was a walk in a the park.
Yeah right, except that sometimes you couldn’t walk.

I didn’t know they had Youtube in 1800th century London when these illnesses were dangerous due to the living conditions of the era. Who knew. Thank God I live in the 21 century where these illnesses almost never kill anyone and are generally mild

@sid…no, you thank others for being vaccinated so you are less likely to be exposed, the hospitals, doctors, nurses and others who can care for you more effectively (though much more expensively than a vaccine which prevents the disease ahead of time), modern plumbing, clean water, and improved monitoring. Depending on where you live, childhood diseases are still killers.

By the way, sid…we do all know that you don’t give a flying leap for anyone who isn’t a upper middle class WASP, so don’t bother going there.

No reason to thank people who do things for their own self interest or because they are forced or tricked into it

It’s always a bit of a shock when people say they see ads on this site. For many of us there is adblock, I think comes with the ‘Chrome’ browser. We see none at all, which pleases me indeed after what is said to be there. yuk

Sid: Yeah, cause if the illness doesn’t kill the kid, your crowd will happily finish the job. Is AOA still happily crowing over the latest wave of murders?

Generally mild, like being bedridden and feeling awful in an uneventful case of measles. Mild like the 88 hospitalisations and 1 death from the 1,200 cases of measles we saw in Wales recently(and let’s hope we don’t see any future SSPE cases from this outbreak), despite modern living conditions.

I know I’ve mentioned all that to him before on here, actually. But Sid’s just fine with that amount of suffering, being the arse that he is. I just wish he would be honest about not caring about other people, rather than lying about how serious these preventable diseases actually are to justify his idiotic views to himself.

Laugh about the Essiac all you want but when I had an ovarian tumor (large), the Essiac actually got rid of it. When I told the gynecologist who was monitoring it, what I had taken, he scratched his head and said something to the effect that whatever I did seemd to help. He was sure he would have to monitor it for a while and remove it surgically. You’ll probably say it would have disappeared anyway (which is possible) but I think it was the Essiac (Flor Essence version) that got the job done.

Jen Jen Jen…it is not uncommon for ovarian cysts to disappear without any intervention at all. Most ovarian cysts are benign BTW as was yours.

If you are suggesting that anyone with cancer should take Essiac then you are a truly disgusting human being. That is tantamount to advocating suicide. It is also illegal in the US.

“It is rather amusing that Sid still reads Respectful Insolence.”

It is rather amusing that Sid still reads at all.

The Essaic ad here on RI features a prominent Canadian flag in the corner. I assume it’s legal here (after all, it was “invented” by a Canadian!), and they get around the law by shipping to the US from Canada.

(Sometimes I’m embarrassed to be Canadian.)

So vaccines are dangerous but Essaic is good? Is that the take-away message?

Orac, Scienceblogs is still vomiting up error messages.

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As for Sid Offitt:

Thank God I live in the 21 century where these illnesses almost never kill anyone and are generally mild.

A little thing called vaccination had something to do with that, dimwit.

Remember that Sid has troubles with basic English comprehension. I’d even waiver that English is not his first language. How else can you explain him directly telling a mother who pleaded for others to get the flu vaccine after her own child died of influenza that the flu is not a big deal?

¿Tal vez si le explicamos en español nos entiende mejor? ¿O nos acusara de ser ilegales?

Thank God I live in the 21 century where [safe and effective vaccines have reduced the incidence of] these illnesses.

FTDY

Laugh about the Essiac all you want but when I had an ovarian tumor (large), the Essiac actually got rid of it.

How exactly have you factually established this, Jen? I mean, it’s on some basis other than a post hoc ergo proctor hoc logical fallacy–right?

My fellow and sister scepticas might be enlightened by taking a peek at sid’s/ Robert’s The Vaccine Machine facebook page:
it’s very active, frequently updated and has lots of friends. The conversations and helpful hints passed around there amongst its denizens are worth reading ( that’s not a compliment).

In other news:

anti-vaxxers/ alt media seem to blame the external world ( i.e. SBM) for all their/ our woes ( see Kim @ AoA, Mary’s mother @ TMR, Mike @ Natural News) whether it’s autism, medical /legal problems or mass murders. It’s the vax/ meds, it’s always the vax/ meds.

-btw- isn’t Kim’s youngest ( who is featured here) the child who WASN’T vaccinated?

@Manduca – you may be buying a lot of shoes (or at least window-shopping)….I was getting faucets, sinks & LED lights for a while, when I was kitchen shopping.

Thank God I live in the 21 century where these illnesses almost never kill anyone and are generally mild

What kind of blinkered xenophobe makes a statement like that on a planet where measles, pertussis, tetanus and hepatitis B alone kill 1.2 million people every year?

If antivaxxers only made an effort to reduce vaccine uptake below herd immunity thresholds in the developed world where VPDs are relatively rare, and never turned their attention to the developed world perhaps it wouldn’t be so bad. After all they are still considered the lunatic fringe by most.

However, I see antivaxxers trying to dissuade parents from vaccinating their children against rotavirus in a country where it kills 3 in 1,000 children, because of a side effect that was not seen in almost half a million children given the vaccine using the same schedule. Despicable and almost unbelievable.

Elsewhere I see them claiming that the polio virus has actually increased the number of children with paralysis. Also demonstrably untrue.

Sadly people in the developed world do have access to the internet, where they can read Sid and other antivaxxers’ lies and misinformation and make decisions about their children’s health based on them. I suspect they simply don’t care.

DL,DL,DL,
I have not suggested anyone with cancer take Essiac. I did say that I do think it got rid of my tumor (benign). It was not a cyst. If you’re starting out this defensive and hostile and you’ve just ‘de-lurked’ then you’re a pretty sad human being.

@jen – for someone who spends a awful lot of time here (reading, though not commenting, based on your “insightful” discussion points at AoA), I’m surprised you don’t recognize DL – he’s been here for a long while.

sid:

No reason to thank people who do things for their own self interest or because they are forced or tricked into it

I vaccinate for self-interest. I’ll be honest and say I am not doing it primarily to protect the rest of the community. The main reason is so *I* don’t catch the diseases. That it also protects the community is a wonderful bonus, and a fabulous thing that absolutely should drive public policy, but I’d vaccinate even if it didn’t protect the community.

Same reason I get my dog vaccinated against rabies. Oh, I know it’s the law, and I know we want to protect anyone she comes into contact with, and that the law is interested in protection of everybody else. But rabies is horrific, and she’s much more likely to catch it than I am, since she loves chasing squirrels and such; damn straight I want her protected from that. Not to mention distemper and bordatella.

I got my flu shot on Monday, BTW.

My fellow and sister scepticas might be enlightened by taking a peek at sid’s/ Robert’s The Vaccine Machine facebook page:
it’s very active, frequently updated and has lots of friends. The conversations and helpful hints passed around there amongst its denizens are worth reading ( that’s not a compliment).

Yes, if you want to see anti-vaxers really letting their freak flags fly, it’s a fascinating study. A bunch of paranoid and totally unqualified people giving each other terrible advice. One poster laments that her family members refuse to let anyone who hasn’t been vaccinated into their home (they have a baby who had a heart transplant at 2 months.) Guess who the other group members sided with?

@jen – Essiac is snake oil. If it worked, the Essiac website wouldn’t need this lengthy Quack Miranda warning plastered on every page: http://essiacinfo.org/helping.html

Rene Caisse was just another hustler who used the “ancient wisdom” gambit (the recipe allegedly came from an unnamed Ojibwa medicine man) to sell a quack nostrum to desperate people. I’m sure it was much easier than doing real nursing.

@Calli Arcale: BTW… Squirrels do not present a risk for rabies. While they can succumb to rabies, it is extremely rare. The last publicized case of rabies discovered in a squirrel was in Pennsylvania in 2003 and a previous report was 12 years before. Raccoons really are considered a risk where I live.

@Edith – I can only imagine…..person (much less a baby) with a compromised immune system….how dare they take steps to insure the utmost safety for that individual…..

@ Edith:

I’ve been following that page for a while- woo hoo!

@ Calli:

I vaccinate because I work with students/ potential students age 18-40+. I also play tennis indoors where many children and adults gather in a common room overlooking the courts( In the past, I used to counsel people who had compromised immune systems and also visited several people who were in their late 80s or early nineties). One of my close associates has asthma and works with children.. Another associate works in an office. Others have children and grandchildren. I also hate being sick because it cramps my style.

I did say that I do think it got rid of my tumor (benign). It was not a cyst.

And my question, as always, is why you believe Essiac got rid of your tumor, benign or otherwise.

Can you explain how you’ve come to that conclusion?

JustNuts — I know squirrels aren’t a common vector, but the urge to chase them could draw her into a conflict with an animal that is: raccoons, for instance. Animal control trapped a rabid raccoon in my neighborhood just a few weeks ago. Now *that* is scary.

Denice — and that is a good thing, that you vaccinate to protect them! I don’t work with students or children (other than my own) or the elderly, so I don’t have the occupational imperative. And I don’t want to imply that you shouldn’t vaccinate for altruistic reasons. I just want to point out that these vaccines are good for you *individually*, so Sid’s apparent disdain for the altruistic angle is, in my opinion, vacuous, fatuous, and, depending which vaccine he’s talking about at the time, perhaps nauseous as well. (OK, so I ran out of rhymes.)

“… so Sid’s apparent disdain for the altruistic angle is, in my opinion, *vacuous, *fatuous, and, depending which vaccine he’s talking about at the time, perhaps *nauseous as well. (OK, so I ran out of rhymes.)

*disingenuous ?

@ Calli Arcale, JustNuts:
I have read rabies is most often found in the skunk population these days. Apparently the rabies vaccine can last up to 7 years. Your vet can check the titer count to see whether or not the vaccine is needed.

Nice ones, folks! There are lots of great rhymes. 😉

I’m okay with vaccinating every 2 years as the law requires. 7 years may be okay for protecting her from rabies, but I also need to protect her from needing to be euthanized for rabies testing if she bites someone….

jen,

I did say that I do think it got rid of my tumor (benign). It was not a cyst.

I assume your ovarian mass was removed surgically (that’s the usual way an ovarian tumor is biopsied), otherwise you couldn’t know it was a benign tumor, could you? If so, isn’t it more likely that the surgery removed the entire tumor, rather than the Essiac doing anything at all? Or do you have some other reason to think the Essiac had some beneficial effect?

Edith Prickly,

More bad news for the likes of Offal – it appears the chicken pox vaccine has been highly effective:

I do hope the UK Ministry of Health takes note; it’s about time we had routine varicella vaccination here.

Jen

Of course you made up your mind using a logical fallacy, that does not surprise any of the regulars here at all. We would not have expected anything less from you 🙂

BTW as has been pointed out I have been a regular reader of Orac’s ramblings for at least 5 years and have posted sporadically here for about the same time. I did post earlier with my other ‘nym but it resulted in a flood of quacks and scammers to my other sandbox where we do not tolerate snake oil salespeople like you.

Enjoy your tea 😉 Time for you to toddle off to your hive of child murderers and abusers

@ Calli:

The people I described are/ were not all clients- I also included social contacts..

-btw- how about:
specious, scurrilous, odious, obnoxious, egregious, devious?

Just got my flu shot. From a multidose vial 😀 I admit I did not ask for extra thimerosal though.

Vaccines…now I don’t have to roll the dice on being utterly miserable for a week.

Oh, yikes, I need to schedule that. As well as the *other* appointment that I’ve been putting off for a year (at least..)

Living and working in the tropics on several continents for the past 40 odd years I have had numerous vaccinations, of varying effectiveness. The cholera vaccination is one of the least efficacious by my understanding. Never the less, I have never had cholera, typhoid, typhus, hepatitus, polio, and maybe one or two more I can’t remember. So far as I can tell I am none the worse for wear from repeated vaccinations for these scourages. I have had two diseases for which there are no vaccines, malaria and dengue fever. For malaria there is prophylaxis which in the form of Lariam, AKA Fansidar I have the questionable legacy of horrific nightmarish dreams… still it is better than being dead I guess. There is no prophylaxisis for ‘breakbone fever’ however, and I have now had it twice.

Without vaccines, it is doubtful that I would still be alive.

And yes, I was a child in the 50s – polio was an awful disease.

I consider pedalling this anti-vaccine nonesense to be criminal. The anti-vax folks should all be required to spend a month or two in equatorial Africa… it might change their point of view.

^ Well, a less-developed country is the closest thing to Victorian-era Europe/America we have in this world (time machines having not been invented yet).

It’s ironic and pathetic that we are undermining herd immuity in our own country whilst encouraging it in the less-developed world. Have we forgotten our history?

Lucario,

It’s ironic and pathetic that we are undermining herd immuity in our own country whilst encouraging it in the less-developed world. Have we forgotten our history?

That merely makes me furious, it’s when I see those idiots trying to persuade African mothers that vaccination is dangerous, that I become almost incandescent. I wholeheartedly agree with Krubozumo Nyankoye – send them to a developing country for a couple of months. Perhaps unvaccinated would be best, so they can see how effective their super-powered 21st century immune systems are in practice.

Personally speaking, I’d have the words “oleaginous” or “unctuous” in there somewhere.
Along with “vexatious”

AoA has a post up about this child, who is being denied access to kindergarten in NYC. I think someone already mentioned the case (Narad perhaps?). Poor kid; her mother is a religious nut and our old “friend” Patricia Finn is the lawyer on the case.

http://www.supportmarysrights.com/

@lilady – so what is the doctor saying that “vaccines will kill this child?” Doesn’t make a lot of sense to me…..

Clearly Dina’s problem isn’t that anyone has prevented her from worshipping freely, following her individual spiritual beliefs and conscience or choosing what is beneficial for her child.

Her problem is that she had some strange idea that the choice she made would be free of consequence (such as her daughter becoming ineligible to attend kindergarten.)

@JGC – I read the letter from “Mary’s Mom.” She sounds like an outright lunatic…..there is definitely something wrong there.

Where’s the petition to Support Mary’s Right to not be put at risk by an antivax crackpot mother who believes in praying illness away? I’ll sign that one.

Krubozumo
I wish we could dump all these guys in some isolated spot in northern Nigeria, or Congo, and see how far their GMO-free natural immunity takes them.

For malaria there is prophylaxis which in the form of Lariam, AKA Fansidar I have the questionable legacy of horrific nightmarish dreams…

Lariam is mefloquine. That’s the one that can cause nightmares.
Fansidar is quite different – a combo of pyrimethamine and sulfadoxine.

Due to Mary’s overactive immune system, she cannot tolerate any preservatives or artificial ingredients. Mary has a severe gluten sensitivity and is allergic to casein. She is on an all-natural diet, and on a strict regimen that consists of compounded creams, vitamins and minerals to help support and strengthen her gastro-intestinal tract and immune system. Dyes, preservatives, and unnatural substances all make her violently sick.

And there was me thinking casein and gluten were the main “natural” proteins constituting milk (including human breast milk) and cereals. This girl has a sensitivity syndrome, but it is not confined to things “unnatural”.

and if Mary’s Mom is “counting on Jesus to save her”, I suggest she trades him in for a different deity, as he seems to have been doing a pretty crap job over the last 6 years.
How long would it take for the penny to drop, I wonder?
Never, I guess.

Too bad Dina doesn’t have a lawyer to school her on constitutional law…oh wait.

So since she isn’t successful with the religious exemption she is shooting for the speshul snowflake “medical exemption”? And since no physician is granting her a medical waiver I take it mummy’s word should be good enough?

@ScienceMom – I’m still not sure exactly what the doctor is saying about the child….and who the heck this “doctor” is supposed to be?

@ Lawrence, the mum’s all over the place with her claims. She can’t get a medical exemption but seems to be playing that card too. Just another nutter who is throwing her child under the bus to make a point.

Too bad Dina doesn’t have a lawyer to school her on constitutional law…oh wait.

It sounds like Finn really took her to the cleaners. The normal path for such cases is not straight to the Eastern District of New York.

Wow, that must have been a fun case to preside over. You’d think that Finn, being the vaccine expert attorney she claims to be would have been a little more familiar with NY’s exemptions to keep Dina from going full on Pentecostal/JW. Alas it seems as though even Dina doesn’t understand the decision and why it was made and avoid making the same mistake. Dumbass.

@lilady – that must have been an interesting time in the Court Room…I wonder why her medical exemption was turned done too…..I have a feeling we might be looking at another MbP case here….

dingo — while Mary’s mom is clearly nuts, the casein in human milk is not the same as the casein in cow’s milk. There is a legitimate allergy to bovine casein (which is completely distinct from lactose intolerance). Of course, it’s far rarer than the GF/CF proponents would have us believe, and people who go on that diet rarely have symptoms of a casein allergy.

I also noticed that the Mother doesn’t believe in feeding her daughter “solid food.” That must be fun for the daughter….again, I get a really bad feeling about this home situation…..

I think this is the last decision which ruled against the plaintiff.

Well, there was another R&R recommending that the motion for a preliminary injunction be denied filed on September 11.

Due to Mary’s overactive immune system, she cannot tolerate any preservatives or artificial ingredients. Mary has a severe gluten sensitivity and is allergic to casein. She is on an all-natural diet, and on a strict regimen that consists of compounded creams, vitamins and minerals to help support and strengthen her gastro-intestinal tract and immune system

Is it really a good idea to strengthen an overactive immune system?

Krubozumo Nyankoye:

Living and working in the tropics on several continents for the past 40 odd years I have had numerous vaccinations, of varying effectiveness. The cholera vaccination is one of the least efficacious by my understanding. Never the less, I have never had cholera, typhoid, typhus, hepatitus, polio, and maybe one or two more I can’t remember.

I spend a third of my youth in the South and Central America. I did not get the cholera vaccine, despite there being a large prominent place for it on my Dept. of Defense dependent shot record. I did get at least two vaccines for yellow fever (and I was actually born in a hospital named for William Gorgas!), but did get vaccines for typhus and typhoid.. and small pox.

…I have had two diseases for which there are no vaccines, malaria and dengue fever. For malaria there is prophylaxis which in the form of Lariam, AKA Fansidar I have the questionable legacy of horrific nightmarish dreams… still it is better than being dead I guess. There is no prophylaxisis for ‘breakbone fever’ however, and I have now had it twice.

I have not had malaia, but I did get dengue fever. That was horrible. And you had it twice! Yikes!

Apparently there have been changes since I lived in the tropics as a kid (cough cough) forty years ago, and there is now a higher chance of getting hemorrhagic fever with dengue. I am always alert to new vaccine and other dengue prevention schemes to prevent dengue in the news. From vaccine development (hello Australia!), to working on mosquitoes (again, hello Australia!).

Like you I think that some of the anti-vax folks need some time in a some of these developing countries. One particular fellow on ShotOfPrevention who pontificates often on how the government is encroachingon his rights by creating a vaccine policy. I always tell him if he does not like the constraints of any government he can always move to Somalia.

Dyes, preservatives, and unnatural substances all make her violently sick.

Goodness. You would think that the child be safer not going to kindergarten.

Dina sounds like she’s way around the bend. Munchhausen’s by Proxy, perhaps? If so, then Mary needs to be put in foster care ASAP before further harm is done to her.

KN: My sympathies on the dengue fever and malaria. My uncle’s had malaria, West Nile and typhus, my future sister in law got dengue fever in Thailand, so I have some idea of how awful they are.

I’m actually allergic to casein, as far as I know. I’ve never been formally diagnosed, but whenever I get into dairy products, I have all the nasty lactose intolerance gut symptoms, plus the standard histamine-reaction symptoms — I start to cough and my nose drips, plus I break out in itchy hives on my hands, feet, and face.

I’m not a GF/CF nutter, I just don’t get along well with dairy products at all. And I despise those dipshits for making it even harder for those of us with legitimate problems to be taken seriously, because all of their woo and bullshit makes a lot of people think “Oh, one of those flakes” and ignore you when you try to get dairy-free food you didn’t cook yourself.

I swear, Imma convert to Judaism just for the basari and pareve chow…

Oh my heck. I did NOT just watch that. I have NEVER in my life watched a video that was so full of lies, scripted, and just flat out dumb as hell.
With all those illnesses that have been AMAZINGLY eradicated, I didn’t see AUTISM on that list. I’m SURE it was just an oversight. I bet it was because they flew up the screen so fast that I simply didn’t see it. Yeah, that’s got to be it!
Your child has the CHANCE of getting over Measles
Your child has the CHANCE of getting over Mumps
Your child has the CHANCE of getting over Rubella
Your child has the CHANCE of getting over Chicken Pox
Your child has the CHANCE of getting over Shingles
Your child has the CHANCE of getting over the flu
My child will NEVER have the chance of getting over Autism

My child will NEVER have the chance of getting over Autism

Right. and your point is? Oh, you believe vaccines causes autism? So? Doesn’t make it true. How about you come back and have more convincing arguments?

Alain

If there were a vaccine for autism, would you give it to your children, Mindy? Would that be a vaccine good enough for you?

Incidentally, you have your facts wrong: those illnesses have not been eradicated, alas. We could argue about how much responsibility anti-vaxxers have for that.

Mindy,
My child also does not have a chance of getting over autism. That’s because autism isn’t something that you catch or get over, it’s part of who you are. But I do hope the world can get over her having it, because she is a wonderful, beautiful child and I will give her every opportunity to succeed in spite of it. It would be a terrible shame for her to catch something preventable, like measles, so I will continue to keep her up to date on her vaccines.

Will you keep your autistic child up to date on his/her vaccines? Or is his/her risk of measles and such not important since he/she won’t get over being autistic?

Perhaps that isn’t the right question. He/she will not get over being autistic; will *you* get over him/her being autistic so that you can focus on helping him/her grow?

Is autism caused by a virus or a bacterium, Mindy?

“My child will NEVER have the chance of getting over Autism”

Mindy, what *treatments/cures* have you tried on your autistic child?

@Mindy: Your child with autism has the CHANCE of having a productive and happy life.

The kids in the little coffins in old cemeteries, not so much.

Your child with autism wouldn’t be any better off for also having measles, either. It’s not a choice between one or the other. Autism is related to brain structures that form before birth, so unless it is your contention that vaccines can time travel, that outcome is unrelated, and the choice is really autism+measles, etc., or just autism.

Ebrillblaiddes: If the kid got measles, she would whinge about how the kid was ‘weak’ and grumble about kid not ‘getting over’ deafness or blindness. There’s just no reaching these people.
I wish the kids had a chance of knowing a loving home. Yeah, I know the AOAers say they love their kids, but I just can’t believe it. Did you read Kim S.’s essay about her daughter’s birthday? Almost made me puke at her insincerity.

Eh, we don’t know whether this particular one is one of those or has just spent a little too much time listening to them. When it’s not one of the usual suspects I prefer to assume they might still have some good intentions left. I admit that this causes me to be a certain amount of wrong.

@Mindy:

Your child has the CHANCE of getting over Measles

I believe that, were he alive, Roald Dahl would have slapped you. Please look up Olivia Dahl.

Your child has the CHANCE of getting over the flu

1918 flu outbreak. Enough said.

Mindy said, “Oh my heck. I did NOT just watch that. I have NEVER in my life watched a video that was so full of lies, scripted, and just flat out dumb as hell.

I’m assuming you clicked on a link to “The Greater Good” by mistake then, right?

My child will NEVER have the chance of getting over Autism

Your child will never have the chance to grow and develop if you continue to view him/her in such a light.

Parents who have lost children to vaccine preventable disease don’t have your luxury – a child that you can still lavish love and attention upon (autistic or not).

I would rather have an autistic child than a dead child.

Your child has the CHANCE of getting over Measles
Your child has the CHANCE of getting over Mumps
Your child has the CHANCE of getting over Rubella

Lemme guess, Mindy, your idea of financial planning involves a lot of lottery tickets, right?

With all those illnesses that have been AMAZINGLY eradicated, I didn’t see AUTISM on that list. I’m SURE it was just an oversight.

No, Mindy, there is no vaccine against autism (although as you are aware, the rubella vaccine does reduce the risk of autism as a side-effect).
Nor are there vaccines against shark attack, house fires or meteor strikes. What is your point?

Ebrillblaiddes: After the last two murders and the murder attempt I’m pretty much done assuming good intentions on the part of anti-vax parents.

Your child has the CHANCE of getting over the flu

Tell that to the parents of the 164 children who died of flu this season. Be prepared to become instantly very unpopular.

Ah, Mindy…what an efficient demonstration on the thought-processes of your ilk: it’s better to be dead than autistic. Never mind the fact that vaccines did not cause your child’s autism. Had we lived in a different time, though, before vaccination, there’s a good CHANCE he/she would have died before age three from one of these VPDs

@PGP: I can’t argue with that on any level more logically valid than Argument From Consequences: if I let myself believe that those creatures are typical of any portion of a species I share genes with, I would have to spend a lot more time crying, or just jump off a cliff or something.

The antivax thing just seems so ridiculous to me because…OK, I was in my misspent youth as an undergrad ed major at the time the Poling verdict came out, and the elementary education degree plan at my school was basically designed to maximize Dunning-Kruger by giving us a class or two of everything and telling us we were experts enough to teach it, so, ed majors believe in EVERYTHING…so I bought into the “a few vulnerable children” hype until I learned statistics elsewhere, but my response was “they really should come up with a test for that then, but it’s not like everyone getting sick was better, so we should still use the shots in the meantime.” So I’ve got to believe that it’s more a result of tripping and falling into an echo chamber, in which case there’s at least an outside chance of their ability to reason being reactivated.

ebrillblaiddes: Fair enough. My default setting is ‘misanthrope,’ so I have no problem believing the worst of all people all the time. I appreciate that some people need to believe, against all contrary evidence, that people can change and become better. I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
I personally don’t think any of them will have any incentive to change until CPS shows up, but that’s a case where the cure is nearly as bad as not doing anything and kids would still be winding up dead. I just wish there was a good solution.

@PGP,

A change in peoples has to come from within so yes, people can change (I’m a living example and not the exception). Furthermore, I can help direct change in some peoples (closest friends usually) but they are their own trigger to such changes. The way I do so is by asking them though provoking question and most of the times, I don’t even need an answer.

Alain

@PGP: Well, I did mention that I realize that the assumption makes me a certain amount of wrong. It’s just a question of which kind of wrong I’d rather be — I have to assume something, and I’ll be less horrified with myself afterward if I find out I was treating the evil as if they were misguided, rather than the misguided as if they were evil.

Alain: Well, sure, it’s possible to change yourself, though I don’t know whether I’ve changed at all or just gotten better at acting. (I’m not nearly as much of a bitch in real life, for example.)

Ebrillblaiddes: I don’t see any difference between the evil and misguided. Actually, I think the misguided are worst, since they’ve willfully chosen to shut off their brain, which is, in my opinion, an open invitation to treat them with contempt.

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