I realize that some of my readers will chide me for saying this, but I usually expect better of Reason. Although I sometimes have a tendency to be a bit—shall we say?—Insolent about libertarians when they pass from a reasonable defense of civil liberties into an Ayn Rand-inspired fantasy world in which the market cures all, useless people keep the supermen (and women) down, and the government is virtually unnecessary, I’ve usually considered Reason.com to represent a fairly—if you’ll excuse the word—reasonable variety of libertarianism. For instance, Ronald Bailey actually once presented what he called a pragmatic argument for coercive vaccination. Unfortunately, this time around, Reason.com has gone totally off the deep end when it comes to “health freedom,” presenting arguments, in essence, for the death of an Amish girl whose family has refused to complete her chemotherapy for a deadly childhood malignancy because, in a nutshell, parental rights must rule supreme. If you wonder whether I’m being too harsh on Reason.com and Tracy Oppenheimer, who, apparently, is responsible for this medical atrocity, read on.
Sarah Hershberger, as regular readers will recall, is an 11-year-old Amish girl from northeast Ohio, an area of the country with which I am well familiar, having spent eight years in Cleveland doing my residency and obtaining my PhD, who was diagnosed last year with lymphoblastic leukemia. She underwent one full course of chemotherapy (out of five courses planned over more than two years), which is the standard of care for the particular variety of leukemia she has. Unfortunately, her family stopped her chemotherapy early in her second course, after the induction phase had been completed, but only a dose or two into her consolidation phase. The reason this is so dangerous, as I’ve explained before, is that recurrence rates are very high after just the induction phase. Without the four other phases of chemotherapy required for this malignancy, there’s a high probability that her leukemia will recur, and when it recurs it will be a more resistant variety, having already been “selected” with one course of chemotherapy. Might she “get away with” only one phase of her chemotherapy? It’s possible, but very unlikely, and, given that full course treatment results in long term survival rates upwards of 85%, not completing the full five phases of chemotherapy is very much endangering this child.
In response to this understandable (given that Sarah was suffering side effects) but profoundly dangerous (to Sarah) action, Akron Children’s Hospital did a highly admirable thing. It brought legal action to appoint a guardian for purposes of medical decision making. This decision led to the Hershbergers fleeing Ohio in order to subject Sarah to quackery. Meanwhile quacks everywhere were furiously spinning, claiming that “natural healing” techniques that the Hershbergers had sought out had rendered her disease free. Most recently, I sadly and reluctantly concluded that Sarah was probably doomed, as the 1851 Center for Constitutional Law, headed up by a crank named Maurice Thompson, had taken the case. When last I left the case, Sarah Hershberger apparently had come home to die. (I realize that that’s not what Thompson and the Hersbhergers were saying, and certainly that’s not what supporters of quackery were admitting, but I had my rasons for concluding it.) Throughout it all, I contended (and still contend) that those arguing for the right of the Hershberger family to deny Sarah lifesaving treatment for a highly curable cancer (85% five year survival) cared far more for “parental rights” than they did about the rights of Sarah Hershberger to live. Currently, as I’ve discussed before, Sarah’s medical guardian, Maria Schimer, resigned. Apparently the court didn’t accept her resignation until March 4, and currently her medical guardian is Judge Kevin Dunn. (I can’t link to the source right now because it’s down.) What will happen next is anyone’s guess.
Tracy Oppenheimer’s brain dead video piece on Reason.com, in which she lets Maurice Thompson advocate for parental rights above all, even if it means the “freedom” for the Hershbergers to let Sarah die a horrific death from leukemia, is entitled Amish vs. the Courts: Family Speaks Out on Fleeing the U.S. to Save Daughter from Court-Mandated Chemo. I don’t recall recently having seen such a one-sided piece about the Hershbergers outside of the usual sources, such as It’s truly painful to watch, as it basically argues that parental rights trump all:
Try not to facepalm too many times when Thompson is speaking. I had a deep hand print on my face, so epic were the facepalms. I should sue Thompson for emotional distress due to flaming stupidity burned into my brain.
Part of the reason I had to blog about this is that the video reveals some things that hadn’t yet been revealed. For instance, featured in the video is a woman described as “health practitioner Angela Lowther. Lowther is an ND; i.e., a naturopath, or, as I like to call the Not a Doctor. It didn’t take much Google-Fu to find her at the Seeds of Wellness clinic in Avon Lake, OH, where she is described thusly:
Angela has owned Healthy Balance Wellness Center since 2008 and has been in practice as a natural health practitioner since 2005 starting out in California.
She is a Doctor of Natural Medicine (ND), Certified Natural Health Practitioner (CNHP), D.PSc – Diplomate of Pastoral Science for PMA and a licensed health provider for PMA, Veterinary Aide, Digital Health Specialist (QBS) – Quantum Biofeedback Specialist, a Digestive Care Specialist for Advanced Naturals, an Independent Consultant for doTerra Essential Oils and Certified AromaTouch Technician for doTerra.
Quantum Biofeedback Specialist? Essential oils? AromaTouch? Those modalities are some serious quackery there. I also note that Lowther’s partners at the clinic where she works includes Rev. Pat Beers, a psychic, medium, clairvoyant, and psychometrist (described as someone who “uses your objects to pick up vibrations”), while also claiming to be able to communicate with animals. Completing the team is Rev. Donna Bretz, who is described as a psychic reader, Reiki Master, Hypnotherapist and ordained Minister. She’s also described as an intuitive empath and uses Angel Cards and Oracle Cards to “help her connect with her Spirit People to receive the answers you seek.”
This is the practitioner to whom the Hershbergers turned to help their daughter get through chemotherapy? No wonder it didn’t take too much for them to be willing to stop treatment, particularly given that one of Sarah’s relatives, LeRoy Keim, is a multilevel marketer for a “natural” weight loss system known as Zija. One can only wonder what nonsense Lowther was filling their heads with. Of course, the Hershbergers must have been susceptible to the nonsense, given that they took Sarah to Lowther in the first place. Meanwhile, in Oppeheimer’s piece, Lowther is allowed to blather on about how natural remedies “boost the immune system” (really, she actually said that at around 2:10 in the video). She also told Oppenheimer that Sarah’s doctors weren’t open to considering any natural supplements. Well, of course they weren’t! They were focused on using science-based medicine to provide Sarah with the best chance that they could possibly give her of surviving her cancer and living to a ripe old age and likely didn’t need to be worrying about whether this herb or this supplement might be interacting or interfering with Sarah’s chemotherapy and other drugs.
We also learn that the Hershbergers were in Mexico, having taken a three and a half day journey from Ohio. The clinic in Mexico where Sarah was treated is not revealed, but unfortunately there are many to choose from, particularly in Tijuana but not limited to Tijuana. The Mexican border is long, and Mexico is a big country. Oppenheimer writes that the Hershbergers wouldn’t provide details of Sarah’s “alternative” treatments, but that information is readily available if she had bothered to do one bit of research for her piece. I noted it months ago in an anti-chemotherapy piece written by David Augenstein:
Andy explained in general terms some of the treatment and nutritional supplements, including high doses of vitamin C and B17, oxygen therapy, detoxification methods, as well as the IV chelation to deliver some of these to Sarah’s bloodstream. He also explained how the doctors arrived at a cancer-free status. She is now on a special diet including lots of vegetables and raw foods and taking special natural supplements, as prescribed by the foreign doctors.
Funny how I found this so easily, and Oppenheimer did not. Funny how also no one is presented to point out that high dose vitamin C for cancer doesn’t work, that B17 (laetrile) is cancer quackery that was discredited 30 years ago, and that “detoxification” and chelation are among the most nonsensical of quackeries aside from the ones that are, like Reiki and therapeutic touch, essentially magical faith healing. What Oppenheimer is doing in her piece is promoting the ability of parents to withhold effective medical treatment in favor of quackery. One wonders if she would have taken the same tack if she knew that the “natural remedies” that Sarah’s parents have chosen include laetrile. Given the ideological bent of this piece, my guess is that it wouldn’t have made a difference. What’s the life of a child compared to…FREEEDOMMMM!
The video starts out with Maurice Thompson of the 1851 Center for Constitutional Law, a dubious far right advocacy group, opining that “Having a free society means that people need to be free to take risks, including risks with their family, when they are suitable and loving parents.” Thompson got half of that right. If he had simply said that having a free society means that people need to be free to take risks, I’d have no problem with that. Competent adults should be free to take risks, and I’ve always said that competent adults can choose whatever treatment they want for themselves, be it science-based or quackery. The key phrase in that sentence is “for themselves.” Children are not considered competent to make such decisions for themselves, and we don’t let them. We can argue about what age children become sufficiently competent to make such decisions, but few would argue that an 11 or 12 year old is competent to make health decisions like deciding whether to do chemotherapy or not. That’s the parents’ job.
So far, so good. But what happens when the parents fail, which is what is happening now? Thompson and Oppenheimer spend lots of time in the video portraying the Hershbergers as loving “suitable” (legal language) parents. That’s a total straw man argument. Thompson also says:
It’s one thing for society, government, for experts to overrule parents who are abusive, or who are neglectful or who perhaps lack the capacity to properly care for their children, and it’s imperative to emphasize that none of those are the case here.
No one—and I mean, no one—is saying that the Hershbergers aren’t loving parents. I certainly have no doubt that the Hershbergers love their daughter as much as any parents can love their child. I also have no doubt that they think they are doing the right thing for her. Unfortunately, cancer doesn’t recognize good intentions. These parents are making a profoundly harmful choice for their daughter, one that is very likely to prevent her from ever seeing adulthood. As I said before, she might luck out, and the chemotherapy that she’s received thus far might be enough, but it’s far more likely that it is not and that her cancer will recur. Considerable time is taken in the video, with Lowther, Sarah’s parents, and Thompson all gushing over how normal and “energetic” Sarah is right now. Oppenheimer cheerily adds to the illusion by narrating herself how fantastic Sarah looks. That’s totally a red herring that has no bearing on why she needs more chemotherapy. She might well seem perfectly fine now, but sooner or later her cancer will almost certainly recur. In the meantime, she’s being treated with quackery like laetrile. That is why, contrary to what Thompson is arguing, the reality is that the Hershbergers are abusive and neglectful. When parents, no matter how well-intentioned, medically neglect their children—and, make no mistake, Sarah Hershberger is a blatant case of medical neglect—it is right and just for society to step in. Medical neglect is abuse, parental intentions notwithstanding.
Arguments like Thompson’s piss me off to no end, because they basically devalue the life of the child and are rooted in the attitude that parental “rights” always trump the good of the child, at least as long as the parents look like nice, fine upstanding citizens. It’s why parents whose children die because they choose prayer over medicine are rarely severely punished in this country. What the Hershbergers are doing to Sarah is no different from that.
Tragically, this video makes it very clear that the Hershbergers were laboring under a delusion. They clearly don’t understand what is at stake. At one point in the video Thompson mentions that the Hershbergers decided to try “natural” treatments, with the belief that they could always go back to chemotherapy if the “natural” therapy failed. On the surface, this seems reasonable enough, but it’s based on a massive misunderstanding of cancer biology. What the Hershbergers don’t seem to understand (and what Oppenheimer doesn’t acknowledge) is that when Sarah’s cancer returns, it will be much harder to treat and far more likely to kill her, no matter what the pediatric oncologists at Akron Children’s Hospital (or any other pediatric cancer center) throw at her. The first chance is virtually always the best chance to cure any cancer, and the Hershbergers are wasting that chance. When Sarah’s cancer returns, oncologists might still be able to save her, but the odds of that will go down considerably.
Thompson also makes a very deceptive argument, pointing out that chemotherapy has significant risks, including infertility, secondary cancers, and even death. One notes that he mentions death first and very prominently. Sure, chemotherapy has significant risks. However, those risks pale in comparison to the risks of what the Hershbergers are doing now. The risk of death due to chemotherapy is much, much lower than the risk of death from cancer, and if you’re a child with cancer you won’t even have the risk of secondary malignancies and infertility of the cancer isn’t cured with appropriate treatment, mainly because you’ll die long before such chemotherapy-associated complications have the opportunity to manifest themselves.
The bottom line is this. The Hershbergers, as nice as they might be and as much as they might love Sarah, are letting her die, and her death will likely be very unpleasant. The State of Ohio and Medina County have profoundly failed in protecting Sarah from this, and far too many people are okay with this, out of a misguided fear of “trampling parental rights.” Maurice Thompson, through his advocacy of parental rights above all else, is complicit in the medical neglect being perpetrated by the Hershbergers. Worse, he’s trying to generalize it to all children, and if he prevails it will be open season on children for cancer quacks in Ohio. Reason should know better than to provide a propaganda organ for the misguided libertarians trying to defend parents who are medically neglecting their children.
393 replies on “Reason.com defends the medical neglect of Sarah Hershberger”
What you want in this case is reasonable, but I wish you would make the case using numbers instead of emotive language. From the numbers that were bandied about in earlier discussions, though there’s a substantial chance that Sarah will have a recurrence and die – and if that did happen, there would be a substantial chance that her death could have been avoided by fuller treatment – it’s not true that she “almost certainly” will by any normal definition of that phrase. You are painting yourself into a corner because it’s very possible that this girl will still be alive and well in five years, and your pronouncement that she’s doomed will certainly be used by her alternative practitioners as evidence that their modalities, which probably have little or no effect on leukemia recurrence, must be effective.
I’ve used numbers many times before in the posts to which I’ve linked. No need to reinvent the wheel, when I’ve posted about Sarah so many times. That “substantial” chance has been estimated by an oncologist who comments here to be at least 90% or higher, which to me is pretty darned close to certain.
You are, however correct. On the off chance that Sarah’s cancer doesn’t recur, the Hershbergers and the quacks who hold up their case as a great injustice will claim that it was the quackery that cured her. The same thing happened when Abraham Cherrix lasted far longer than one would have expected not having undergone definitive therapy. They don’t mention him much any more, because he did eventually recur, and when last I checked in with him he was battling multiple recurrences. His, it turns out, was an indolent tumor, but unfortunately it is also relentless.
As for “emotive language,” I think it’s very appropriate in this case, given the topic.
I’m pretty certain I’m on record on a long-ago post on Respectful Insolence opining that being a parent – or more generally a guardian (natural or legal) – of a child doesn’t confer rights so much as it confers duties – most notably, in the case of medical care, the duties to look out for a child’s best interests.
While there may come a (surely heartbreaking) point where withholding curative treatment from a child with cancer, in favour of, say, palliation, I would think that until reaching that point, it’s in the child’s best interests to have an opportunity to reach adulthood – that is, to pursue curative treatment, however unpleasant.
The Hershbergers are, in their well-intentioned ignorance, allowing quacks to prey upon their child and their finances (*) and are narrowing the window of opportunity where curative treatment can be effective. It is an alternately enraging and depressing situation.
(*) And on the goodwill and charity of others who donate(d) to help pay for Sarah’s medical costs.
“She is a Doctor of Natural Medicine (ND), Certified Natural Health Practitioner (CNHP), D.PSc – Diplomate of Pastoral Science for PMA and a licensed health provider for PMA, Veterinary Aide, Digital Health Specialist (QBS) – Quantum Biofeedback Specialist, a Digestive Care Specialist for Advanced Naturals, an Independent Consultant for doTerra Essential Oils and Certified AromaTouch Technician for doTerra.”
Well, that’s a heck of a lot more titles and initials to put after your name than just M.D., board certified in oncology. And I’ll bet none of the physicians treating Sarah were qualified as a veterinary aide.
Lowther’s list of qualifications includes Veterinary Aide. I don’t know what she means by this. In the U.S. veterinary assistants are on-the-job trained or go through a short series of courses while veterinary technicians are supposed to have graduated from a 2 or 4 year AVMA approved program and passed national and state exams. There’s a maddening variation about that among states, but that’s neither here nor there.
I am a credentialed veterinary technician and I would never attempt to treat a human, short of a zombie apocalypse.
I’m barred by law from diagnosing, prescribing and performing surgery on animals even though I have some education on how all these things are done. Being a veterinary aide, whatever that’s supposed to mean, certainly doesn’t add anything to her presumed ability to treat any living being.
Emphasize all you want, Thompson. The crux of the problem is precisely that rejecting a course of action with some chance of working for some unscientific, unproven one could indeed be seen as a sign of neglect. Or, to be more charitable, of parents which are out of their depth and are about to make a mistake.
On another nitpick, just noting this:
How could you be on one hand an “independent consultant” and on the other hand a “certified technician” for the same company?
@Dangerous Bacon: I’m afraid to ask what a Diplomate of Pastoral Science is, and what that qualification has to do with medicine in humans.
What’s the life of a child compared to…FREEEDOMMMM!
I would not have been able to resist the temptation to spell that last word “FREEDUMB!”
I’m a regular reader of Reason, but I’ve also been put off by their absolutist stance on parental rights. There’s a sticky question here, though. How do we draw a line that enables us to help Sarah Hershberger without also circumscribing other cases where interference would be more troubling? It is one thing to say, Only in situations where the child’s life is clearly in danger, and there is a treatment that is highly likely to be effective. But adverbs are slippery; what constitutes “clearly” and “highly”?
Even more than that, I think Reason is afraid of the slippery slope: once we’ve said interference is OK in “this” situation, what about “that” one? For instance, is the “Free Range Kids” movement a wholesome reaction to an overprotective society, or reckless people endangering their children’s very lives? Is ensuring the best chance for life even enough? What about a child’s right to mental health — can we enforce that, as well? That seems like a good idea, too, but now we are REALLY in a grey area.
Of course, “slippery slope” arguments are generally considered a logical fallacy. It’s very rare that they’re made without being fallacious or overblown.
How could you be on one hand an “independent consultant” and on the other hand a “certified technician” for the same company?
One word: Microsoft.
Longer version: The company in question may be pulling a common if questionable tax dodge by giving their employees a Form 1099 (as independent contractors) rather than a W-2 (which they would get as employees). The difference being that, if you get a Form 1099, you are expected to pay the portion of Social Security and Medicare taxes that your employer would pay if you got a W-2 from them.
@ Orac/Composer99
Agreeing on both counts.
If I knew the family of the poor girl, I would be split between sharing their grief, and wanting to yell at them.
It sounds self-righteous, but darn it, refusing chemo to have plenty of other nasty stuff (chelation chief among them) injected into their child?
@ Eric Lund
Oh. Tax evasion.
Thanks. I suspected something like this, but lacked the knowledge.
” into an Ayn Rand-inspired fantasy worldn in which the market cures all……”
I believe that Orac has, with the above sentence, sounded the alarm awakening libertarians, Randians and health freedom advocates to battle for their g-d-given rights on these pages.
Or maybe—just maybe—I’ve awakened the Sheeple!
http://xkcd.com/1013
Can someone explain to me what a Digital Health Specialist is?
Someone who is supposed to care for the health of digital equipment?
Renate, maybe it is a person who specializes in the health of fingers.
Or:
“Digital Health Specialist” = someone who gives massages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger
I guess I’m the only one who thought of E.T. in relation to “digital health specialist?” Although Lowther may think she can actually DO that.
@Renate – that’s how I read it too, haha.
I know how to run Malwarebytes and Spybot: Search and Destroy, does that make me a Digital Health Specialist too?
I also have a doctorate in ctrl-alt-deleteology!
“ArmoaTouch”
I know this is one of the BlinkenBoxOLights occasional typos, but it actually sounds like it could be some new sort of alternative treatment that “cures everything from toothaches to cancer.” Wonder if one of the Alties will claim ArmoaTouch for their own.
More on topic, the whole situation leaves me a little torn. I agree that this is a case where “Parental Rights” are unquestionably putting their child at risk, probably to the point of leading to her untimely death. But I’ve also seen cases where the State (in the guise of CPS) has wildly overstepped their bounds and done severe damage to a family. Albeit in a non-medical context.
I don’t see an easy way to balance the rights of a parent (the legal and ethical guardian of their child – Duties, as Composer eloquently puts it) with the duties of the State to act in the best interests of their citizens – especially the ones least able to take care of themselves.
Nope,they use a digital machine to take a reading from their patient to determine whats wrong with them.Ain’t technology wonderful.Sad part is that they charge people to do this and people are fooled into believing that it is a true form of medicine.And F.Y.I Orac Angela is from Ashland, Ohio. She see’s many Amish who consider her to be a Medical Doctor.They believe whatever she tells them.
There will always be grey areas and edge cases, that’s why we have courts instead of flow-charts. You can’t reduce justice to an algorithm.
I’ve come across quite a few cases of neglect where the parents did not have bad intent (though some parents are really, really culpable, unfortunately). As Orac points out, that’s not the question and not the focus. Killing a child with love is no less killing that child. Maybe the language of neglect should be changed, in a way that will capture the idea that it’s not about assigning blame, but about protecting the child.
@Renate here is some interesting info Quack “Electrodiagnostic” Devices
Stephen Barrett, M.D.
The devices described in this article are used to diagnose nonexistent health problems, select inappropriate treatment, and defraud insurance companies. The practitioners who use them are either delusional, dishonest, or both. These devices should be confiscated and the practitioners who use them should be prosecuted. If you encounter any such device, please report it to the state attorney general, any relevant licensing board, the FDA, the FTC, the FBI, the Better Business Bureau, and any insurance company to which the practitioner submits claims that involve use of the device.
@Renate here is some interesting info Quack “Electrodiagnostic” Devices
Stephen Barrett, M.D.
” The devices described in this article are used to diagnose nonexistent health problems, select inappropriate treatment, and defraud insurance companies. The practitioners who use them are either delusional, dishonest, or both. These devices should be confiscated and the practitioners who use them should be prosecuted. If you encounter any such device, please report it to the state attorney general, any relevant licensing board, the FDA, the FTC, the FBI, the Better Business Bureau, and any insurance company to which the practitioner submits claims that involve use of the device. “
When quackery invokes parental rights, I cringe. I’ve seen a few too many cases where alties speak of children as if they were broken toasters or privately owned (sloppily conducted) science experiments, rather than thinking, feeling people who are suffering. In some cases, particularly religious ones, they speak of the child as merely a tool for punishing some real or imagined transgression of the parent.
@Helianthus: Not necessarily tax evasion (though there are companies who skirt the legal line on this). There are other differences between an independent consultant and an employee, including how much control the company has over how and when you do the work. In the US, the IRS has a list of questions that can be used to help determine whether a given person is an employee or an independent contractor, and while they are somewhat biased in favor of finding the person to be an employee, there are many examples of people who are legitimately independent contractors.
I’ve been an independent contractor in a tutoring business that I’m confident satisfied the legal definition. The company in question acted as a broker who put me in contact with clients, certified my abilities, and handled billing and collections. I set my own hours and pay rate by negotiating directly with the clients. The company took a percentage of what I was paid as their cut. I was also free to work with other clients that I found on my own, which I handled independently of my relationship with the company.
That’s a pretty good example of what an independent contractor relationship can look like.
I pointed out this post to a colleague of mine who has taken a special interest in how the Amish have accomodated (or not) to the demands of the modern world (e.g., compulsory schooling, and so on). He hadn’t been aware of this case — he had this to say:
Hey, if you take your car to a dealership with a check-engine light on, the first thing they do is plug it into some electronic gizmo that tells them what’s wrong with it.
Don’t people work the same way?
And then you have stories like this, where a parent declined to take preventative steps to protect her newborn, and something disastrous happened
http://cestsibonblog.wordpress.com/2014/03/07/why-it-happened-the-truth-about-vitamin-k-deficiency-bleeding/
I agree with Orac that it is angering to see something that is as clear cut as this case. And to have people crying “but what about parental rights” without seeming to consider the child…ugh.
For those interested in a less clear-cut situation, there’s the case of Justina Pelletier. Similar to the Hershbergers, the state stepped in to ensure that Justina was properly cared for. But here’s the rub: it isn’t a question of real medicine vs. quackery, but real medicine vs. real medicine. The response has been, similar to the Hershbergers, almost exclusively loud cries about parental rights, etc. Intriguing, but very murky, case.
Nope,they use a digital machine to take a reading from their patient to determine whats wrong with them.
So it’s sort of like a tricorder, except for the minor detail that (at least in the Star Trek universe) tricorders work, and this machine doesn’t.
I think that, in cases like Sarah Hershberger, a lot of otherwise fairly reasonable libertarians fall for the slippery slope fallacy. (You do know that the slippery slope argument is almost always a logical fallacy, didn’t you?) They seem to think that if they budge even a little bit, even for such a clear-cut case as that of Sarah Hershberger, it will inevitably open the door for a cascade of actions that will end with the state shutting parents out and raising our children in a Big Brother-like manner. They’ve convinced themselves of this so much so that they seem to think that if an occasional child like Sarah dies, then that’s the price of freedom. Not that they’d ever admit that. They might not even realize that that’s the argument they’re buying into, at least not consciously. But that is the consequence of their dogmatic, unbending support of “parental rights.”
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/slipslop.html
Are you claiming libertarians are going with a greater good argument?
(I think you’re right, by the way).
@Todd – The case of Justina Pelletier came to mind too. Expand story here http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/12/15/justina/vnwzbbNdiodSD7WDTh6xZI/story.html
There are a couple more stories of the same type of thing happening in mental hospitals. I don’t understand why in some situations it is like parents don’t exist and others they trump all (recall Elian Gonzalez).
I certainly don’t have the answers. I only wanted to say that whenever the state steps in, they should be held just as accountable for the outcome as the child’s parents.
“I may lose my child, but I will not lose my freedom”
Somehow, this does not sound as heroic and self-sacrificing as Braveheart’s battle cry…
I suppose you could put it that way.
#6 and #10
doTerra is a multi-level-marketing essential oils distributor. THAT’s how you can be an independent consultant (dealer) and a certified technician (which is whatever amount of weird classes they put on for their consultants).
@Mike #20:
Create a Wikipedia page for it and they will come running.
At what point do parents lose the right or option to inflict harm or prevent harm on their children?
Our pediatrician asked us to enroll our two children in a study on a new combination vaccine. We said sure. Then we were told about the protocols, which will involve multiple blood draws from our 1 year old and 4 year old. Unfortunately my 4 year old has been in the hospital a couple of times where she had IV’s and has had numerous blood draws for allergies. She hates them and I am forced to physically restrain her while she screams to hold her still. Is it ethical of me to force my daughters to be part of a study they do not understand and will cause them pain and will not personally benefit them though it may benefit people in the future?
That’s an interesting question, but it’s not quite related. The reason is simple. If you were to refuse to have your children participate in the clinical trial, your two children would not in any way be victims of medical neglect. Your pediatrician would continue to care for them according to the standard of care. So, of course, it’s ethical not to enroll them in the clinical trial if you don’t think they would handle it well. Only you can decide if you think the potential benefits to others are worth the distress that it would cause your children to participate.
I suppose if you think this study will be in some way not good for your child, I can imagine you have every right to refuse.
Dunc: You can’t reduce justice to an algorithm.
No, but given how each court case is determined by all the others that went before it, you can guess how the case is going to turn out, and by that which illegal acts are actually legal (due to non-prosecution and general climate of state.)
Can someone explain to me what a Digital Health Specialist is?
When my doctor is conducting my yearly check-up, he certainly uses his finger for part of the examination.
@ Mike: you always have the right to drop out of a clinical trial that you or your child(ren) are participating in.
Believe it or not, I posted a comment on another site months ago, about Sarah Hershberger; another poster stated that children are chattel.
I just posted a comment on the Reason.com website:
http://reason.com/reasontv/2014/03/11/amish-family-defends-medical-decisions-f#comment_4374661
Just because “slippery slope” or “domino effect” is often a logical fallacy doesn’t mean it can’t be true…
Be that as it may, it’s been a core contention in Maurice’s untimely and mooted legal efforts. I’ve mentioned this before, but this part of the legal argument boils down to three parts (I just got home, so there are no citations):
1. In Ohio, it has been found that a medical guardian cannot consent to the removal of life support from a ward if parental rights have not been completeley legally severed.
2. Chemotherapy here would be life-sustaining, which is close enough to invoke the case law.
3. Because the Hershbergers do not satisfy the criteria for permant severance of rights, a medical guardian cannot compel life-saving treatment.
As I’ve also mentioned, this boils down to nothing other than the absurdity that medical guardianships don’t exist. Maurice has not yet been pressed into trying to run this line of shıt past a real live judge.
It’s back up.
one of Sarah’s relatives, LeRoy Keim, is a multilevel marketer for a “natural” weight loss system known as Zija.
I suppose LeRoy’s claim that any money you send him (made through multiple crowd-sourcing charity appeals) will be spent on helping Sarah’s family, is truthful enough, to the extent that Leroy is a member of her family.
Sorry to natter on; I’m working piecemeal. First, the previous comment was mistaken; the Medina County docket search is still 503, but the payload linked above is live.
I think that what’s even worse is that he’s doing it for no reason other than personal publicity. The Hershbergers already had counsel in the form of John Olberholzter, who they discharged because Maurice sold them a bill of goods.
He doesn’t have that bad of a track record, but I don’t think there’s any question here that his representation has been nothing short of incompetent. (*Paging Prof. Reiss*) The legal grandstanding he tried to get away with amounted to nothing more (on top of the seriously crappy “amicus” brief) than raising issues on appeal that he damn well should have known were inappropriate.
Schimer’s final reply brief was terse, and the decision was as well. Maurice simply preyed on the Hershbergers for the sake of blowing the conch trumpet he has left over from his shriveled crown gastropod, the Ohio Healthcare Freedom Amendment.
There appears to be unharvested nutbaggery once one scratches the fusion crust of the Pastoral Medical Association. From a comment at Mark Sircus’s joint:
Sound familiar?
Bingo.
The guy behind the Integrative Pastoral Medical Association has been so helpful as to assemble a blacklist.
Ah, So there is a dispute between the Alternative to the Alternative Health Provider network, and the Alternative to the Alternative to the Alternative Health Provider network, over
moneywhich is which.How did you find the SaneVax connection? Just following a hunch?
@palindrom:
At least under the guardianship, this report states that there would have been no cost, which makes sense.
Looking at the Akron Children’s “Hospital Care Assurance Program” application, given that there are seven children in total, there would have been no bill if the gross family income were under $35,610, with an assistance program after that.
No, it was on the blacklist, which popped right up with a search for “‘pastoral medical association’ nevis” looking for the connection to this, which is probably to be had.
While I still have some energy, allow me to turn to “Rev. Pat Beers.”
Who might the Sanctuary of Angelic Lights be? Why, it
iswas Pat Beers!It seems to be a bit more than just a clinic:
“Looking for a smoking alternative? Seeds of Wellness specializes in Premium Vapes electronic cigarettes, EGO 510 e-cig and their accessories.”
“licensed health provider for PMA, Veterinary Aide, Digital Health Specialist (QBS) – Quantum Biofeedback Specialist, a Digestive Care Specialist for Advanced Naturals, an Independent Consultant for doTerra Essential Oils and Certified AromaTouch Technician for doTerra.”
Sounds like a vacuum cleaner.
Fool and money, meet vacuum.
Somebuddy’s gotta do it.
““substantial” chance has been estimated by an oncologist who comments here to be at least 90% or higher, which to me is pretty darned close to certain….”
Numbers and our perception of their meaning depend on how they are presented and our stake in their significance.
Is 90% big or little?
Neither.
Car pool driver:
1. “On each trip, I have reason to be 90% confident my car’s left front wheel will not fall off”
rider: yeah, uhhm, take it easy while I’m in the car
2. “We make ten trips to and from work per week. On each trip, the left front wheel has about a one in ten chance of falling off.”
rider: uhhm, I’ll take the bus
And… Angela Lowther has now officially engaged in the unauthorized practice of medicine under Ohio Rev. Code § 4731:
@Spectator #60
Your analogy fails. If we had nothing to compare to the 90% recurrence rate associated with opting out of the chemo program early in the consolidation phase, maybe it would hold water. But we know that the recurrence rate with a full course of chemo is much lower than this (not sure of the specific numbers, but they do exist… Orac?). Thus the 90% recurrence rate isn’t a subjective value that can be interpreted however you want it to be, it’s a concrete value that can be objectively compared to other concrete values.
@ Narad
Why do I have this flashback about the People’s Front of Judea from Life of Brian?
@Neil #60.
The comment isn’t meant to be a critique of a medical practice.
Obviously, it is unconscionable to deny treatment to the child.
The comment is meant as an observation of how a statistic is perceived. Most people hear “90%” as “that’s almost 100%” and not “that’s like 27 days per month”.
If a prediction as good about 90% of the time and one makes such a prediction once a (day/month/galactic time unit), one of the predictions is likely to fail before long, possibly well before 10 have been made. If the galactic sector overlord/internet echo chamber has a peeve with you, it will trumpet the first unfulfilled prediction while ignoring or rationalizing the others.
It’s nice of Angela Lowther and the Rev. Donna Bretz to list their comprehensive portfolio of scams. They sound quite well-rounded — no niche is omitted.
I am inured to the fact that in New Age circles, people who would be laughed out of a RenFaire can still monetise their self-dramatising intellectual-dress-up fantasies. It is still sad to see them kill an otherwise-treatable girl for the sake of the publicity.
Quantum Biofeedback Specialist
I recall that “Quantum Biofeedback” has featured in RI before, popular among grifters who wish to distinguish themselves from classical biofeedback woosters by adding additional Worship Words.
I idly began to wonder a Quantum Biofeedback Association had been formed in order to limit unqualified competition. Evidently one exists in South Africa. There is a North American website claiming the mantles of both QBA and Quantum Biofeedback Practitioners’ Association, and charging a US $250 membership fee in return for unspecified benefits, but it looks rather moribund, and I suspect it’s an attempt to grift the grifters. So sadly, no turf wars to look forward to.
“Dr.” Lowther failed to mention her term as president of “Phunky Fones & Spunky Stuff, Inc.”
Narad: “Dr.” Lowther failed to mention her term as president of “Phunky Fones & Spunky Stuff, Inc.”
Is that a real company?
The Great Gazoogle says Yes. Along with ‘Heartfelt”. See also “Angela Varho-Lowther”.
There are several “practitioners” hiding behind the ‘pastoral medical association’ to hide their scamming. In order to use them the patient has to join the association and then if there are any problems you have to have your grievance heard in their ecclesiastical court. I’m not kidding that’s how they try to hide their illegal medical practices, behind religion. great little scam they have going on their.
http://www.pmai.us/
Sorry Orac. I think you’re totally wrong on this. Sarah Hershberger is a child. That mean she has exactly the same status as a sofa, a ping-pong table, a book of stamps, or anything else her parents may or may not own. They have every right to deny her medical care, just as they have the right to deny her food, water, or a roof over her head. If they don’t think chemotherapy is best for her, or, if, indeed, they simply can’t be bothered to take her to the hospital, that is their right, and we should respect it.
This isn’t about rationality, or evidence, or the “proven” effectiveness of mainstream medical treatment. This is about Freedom. And The Constitution. And the Liberty Bell. And John Wayne (maybe).
Better dead than Red, even if you’re only 11.
@narad 53,
I didn’t recognized most of the names, but I did notice that Dr Suzanne Humphries made their blacklist.
Oh, and I saw the sanevax site made the list, too. I think I skipped it in my original skim because they misspelled it as “senevax”.
@Helianthus: “How could you be on one hand an “independent consultant” and on the other hand a “certified technician” for the same company?”
Well, since she’s also got a Quantum certification, it’s clear that her relationship with doTerra exists in a superposition of states, where she both is and is not independent. Until directly observed, anyway.
@Shank
Sorry, but children are not property. If you want, you are allowed to take a reciprocating saw to your sofa. You are not allowed to do so to your child. But, hey, freedom, amiright?
@Todd W.
Apparently the obvious Poe wasn’t obvious enough in spite of the invocation of John Wayne.
@Militant Agnostic
Yeah. My Poe detector’s been on the fritz lately.
P(oe)wned! 🙂
@ Malakyp
Ahhh, of course. Now it’s making sense 🙂
I wouldn’t want this lady to experience existentialist questions. I hope she receives soon the visit of some nice people from state’s or federal agencies to observe her very closely.
Shank, if you had added Benghazi! to your comments, we’d have all copped it.
@squirreleite
#71
Oh, and I saw the sanevax site made the list, too. I think I skipped it in my original skim because they misspelled it as “senevax”.
They didn’t mean vaccinations for the elderly?
@ enise Walter
#13
Randians and health freedom advocates to battle for their g-d-given rights on these pages.
Strictly speaking, Rand would not say that rights are God given,
@ Colin Day:
To be perfectly frank, I wouldn’t use that term either but I didn’t know how else to say it in a way that would be inclusive of these groups and yet comprehensible to others.
Not that I think that of their positions are all that comprehenisble anyway.
Good work, Lilady, link included in your comment.
Here’s what we’re up against, this from another comment a few comments above yours: ‘Nice strawmen bro, let me know when there’s a mass problem in society of this happening but currently the cancer we are all suffering from is the vile tumors of the state.’
For emphasis: ‘the vile tumors of the state.’
Americans are supposed to have a ‘healthy scepticism of government,’ but that’s not scepticism, it’s overt hatred. It’s as much hatred as if someone said, ‘I’m not going to let a [racial epithet] treat my kid!’
Here’s how this works: the hate comes first, and the rationalisations come after to fill in the details, and then these haters go looking for pawns to use in their war against government. Just like the way Julian Assange manipulated a kid who wasn’t even legal to drink beer (Chelsea Manning) to throw her (at the time, his) life away for Assange’s cause.
To my mind there are few things quite as disgusting and loathsome as someone who is willing to sacrifice _other people_ for his/her own cause.
As for Angela Lowther, the lethal quack with the long list of meaningless titles, you can add one more to that: Certified Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Anyone who plumps up their ‘importance’ with a long list of pseudo-impressive but meaningless titles, is pretty obviously a textbook narcissist. And narcissists are second in dangerousness only to sociopaths and psychopaths. She needs to be investigated, prosecuted, and put out of business (is it too much to ask for a prison sentence?) before she kills anyone else.
@Orac
Disclaimer: I’m friends with Maurice in real life (and linked this blog to him).
I have spoken at length about medicine and he knows I strongly reject alternative medicine as nonsense, but he is correct in defending the Hershberger’s and attacking the Ohio Health Law.
Orac would you still defend a law that allows authorities to abduct a child in a reverse circumstance in which science-based medicine is being practiced and the authorities adhere to alternative medicine?
Medical neglect is NOT abuse despite your efforts to redefine the terms. If someone doesn’t administer alternative medicine to their child, is that neglect?
Your entire political premise rests on the assumption that the authorities will be correct. This is the blind trust in authority that libertarians despise. It’s elitism (even if sometimes correct) to believe government officials are cut from a finer cloth.
A good portion of your blog posts are ranting about the stupidity of the authorities (like the Texas Medical Board) yet you still mock libertarians for opposing the authority.
Also, Ayn Rand hated libertarians. She was an Objectivist.
Orac since you are so fond of setting up an libertarian Ayn-Rand strawman fantasy utopia, can I assume that you want an Al Gore fantasy world.
Just like Ayn Rand is the goddess of libertarianism, Al Gore is the god and gold standard of liberalism, right?
@Orac
Also it is important to consider that the slippery slope tactic used by libertarians isn’t necessarily a logical fallacy despite being one. This is called the fallacy fallacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_fallacy
Libertarians are proven to be justified in their slippery slope concerns about government authority time and time again. Orac, you voice your concerns about CAM and Integrated Medicine often in your writing. Have you been wrong in your slippery slope predictions?
@Narad
I’m calling a truce with you. Please stop doxxing me. I’ll quit mocking you if you agree to do the same. I apologize for nothing and do not expect one from you, but I want to comment here without immediate hostility.
You said…
“I think that what’s even worse is that [Maurice] is doing it for no reason other than personal publicity”
I assure you from knowing him personally that his libertarian convictions and beliefs about civil liberties are deep-seated and sincere. You may disagree with a man’s actions, but attacking his intentions is just malicious speculation.
His current project is attacking the legality of traffic cameras. That is hardly a hot topic of self-promotion and demagoguery.
http://www.ohioconstitution.org/2014/03/13/legal-center-to-high-court-traffic-cameras-unconstitutional-in-ohio/
“Maurice has not yet been pressed into trying to run this line of shıt past a real live judge.”
Maurice has argued in front of the Ohio Supreme Court 3 times. He is an accomplished and extremely principled lawyer.
In December 2013 he ran his “line of sh*t” against the unconstitutionality of the expansion of Medicaid in front of the Ohio Supreme Court. Of course he was correct about this as well. He is going against Republican governor Kasich.
@Orac
One more thing on the ridiculousness of the “Ayn Rand-inspired fantasy…”
Ayn Rand never wrote about any libertarian utopia. Have you ever actually read any of her work or are you just pontificating and repeating popular progressive buzzwords?
All of her work describes fictionalized DYSTOPIAS. Is George Owell’s 1985 a libertarian fantasy? Is Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World a libertarian fantasy? Why the hell is Atlas Shrugged or The Fountainhead as being a libertarian fantasy? They are written with the same themes and style as the former examples.
I have yet to encounter an Ayn Rand critic who has actually read her work. I don’t agree with all of her beliefs and I find her too be excessively wordy with irrelevant details, but she wrote entertaining stories.
The Fountainhead is about as libertarian and controversial as the Ghostbusters film. The most virulent criticism of Ayn Rand is obviously spewed by those who are ignorant of work. Repeating anti-libertarian propaganda does not count as being informed.
I haven’t “doxxed” you, something that seems to elude you.
Mocking you? No, I’ll mock you as soon as you devolve into mockworthy form.
^ Sorry about the b0rk3d blockquote.
Orac would you still defend a law that allows authorities to abduct a child in a reverse circumstance in which science-based medicine is being practiced and the authorities adhere to alternative medicine?
I don’t really understand why you asked this. I am pretty sure we both know he would not support such a law. And this supports your position how? “Alternative medicine” is an oxymoron. There is medicine and not medicine. A law subjecting a child to “alternative medicine” is tantamount to sanctioning torture. Such a law is morally abhorrent.
Yet, I can object to such a law and still approve of a law that, in effect, removes children from such torture imposed by misguided parents. One would seem to follow from the other. Help me understand why this helps you, instead of being the reddest of straw-stuffed herrings.
And seriously, is there a new form of Godwin’s Law we need here? Reducto ad Al Gore? Dude, libertarians are supposed to be good at arguing. That is just weak tea. Try again?
Government authorities, by the way, won’t be making the call as to what is real medicine. Physicians will. No scary Uncle Sam Obamacare monster will be involved.
Given that it can be and is prosecuted as such, the only one redefining terms is you.
We can argue about what age children become sufficiently competent to make such decisions, but few would argue that an 11 or 12 year old is competent to make health decisions like deciding whether to do chemotherapy or not. That’s the parents’ job.
So far, so good. But what happens when the parents fail, which is what is happening now?
Shorter version: The decision is the parents’ responsibility, unless I disagree with their preferred course of action.
Tell me this: you state that given the prescribed treatment, the chance of the child’s recovery would be 85%. Given that your position is essentially that you should be able to overrule the parent’s authority in making treatment decisions for their child, would you also be willing to be held legally liable should you enforce your preferred form of treatment and the child dies anyway? I submit that those who demand authority are also obliged to bear responsibility – and associated consequences.
Hmmmm…..85% chance of survival vs. 100% chance of death…..
@sciena est
So you want physicians to write the the laws?
Alternative medicine practitioners are already writing laws through lobbying and they have already integrated into science based medicine. So are you saying you support the status quo?
It’s hilarious to me that progressivism in America means defense of the status quo.
But hey with your smug and vastly superior progressive intellect must be you have such a deep understanding of “scary monster Uncle Sam Obamacare monster” that I can’t possibly understand the greatness of it like you do.
And here we want to vote for a big government nationalizing everything (electric car mfg, tourism along national reserves, wind turbine, solar panels, etc…) he/she can to create more money and well paying jobs to workers nationwide and create a salary for the peoples and finally, a flat tax rate (say 11%) like Alberta which everyone pay, companies included. Free healthcare, free medication at lower cost to them (thanks to the PharmaQuebec initiative)…could we say free dental work? I know we can.
Is that communism? 🙂
Alain
<blockquote.Medical neglect is NOT abuse despite your efforts to redefine the terms. If someone doesn’t administer alternative medicine to their child, is that neglect?
No, as there’s no evidence that withholding alternative will harm their child. It would be abuse to withold science based medical where there is evidence doing so will harm the child..
No, it rests on demonstrated fact: with treatment she has an 85% chance of a lasting cure while without treatment it’s almost a certainty the cancer will recur, in a more resistant form, to kill her.
What historical example can you provide of a “libertarian state” performed as well if not better than all alternative forms of governance (like the US’s democratic republic)? Be specific.
Of course not–it’s the physician’s responsibility to identify an appropriate course of treatment. It’s the legislature’s responsibility to enact legislation to address parents who abuse their children by withholding mecidal care.
And we both agree this is a bad thing which doesn’t in any ways speak to the problem of parents abusing their children by withholding medical care, right?
If by “support the status quo” you mean “act to prevent chaild abuse through denial of access to medical care”, yes.
The Affordable Care Act isn’t the topic of discussion here, delysid.
Hey, D., could you get Maurice on the blower and find out whether his “pro bono” “representation” of the Hershbergers depends on “donations” to the 1851 Center from the “charities” set up by Augenstein and LeRoy Keim to collect money under the Sarah Hershberger brand?
^ (Ohio nonprofits don’t seem to be subject to financial disclosures.)
@Alain
It’s not free. If socialized medicine was free, do you think anybody would oppose it?
The costs of socialized medicine are hidden by a massive, complicated bureaucracy and a list of indirect and direct taxes.
The negative long-term economic consequences are kept hidden from the public with monetary inflation. and other central banking manipulation.
@JGC
I have answered this question several times about the “libertarian society.”
First off, society and government are not the same thing. If you do not distinguish society from government than there is nothing I can say to you.
Libertarian society is everywhere, all of the time. Libertarianism is voluntary association.
Libertarian government has been attempted (aka the United States Republic and those that followed) but they always devolve into authoritarianism.
So what point are you trying to make?
Progressivism: Let’s stop a small group of people from robbing and pillaging by giving a small group of people the power to rob and pillage and call it government.
@JGC
Also scientia est brought up Obamacare first.
And by the way, you hinted at the nirvana fallacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy
I don’t understand anti-libertarians who criticize it based on the lack of libertarian governments. “Every government throughout history has been violent! How dare anyone advocate against such a thing!”
I’m affraid the lack of government will lead to a violent society, where the ones with the bigger guns rule.
So what our LSD-addled friend here just admitted that anytime a “Libertarian experiment” has been attempted, it has failed….
Well, we at least got that out of the way.
I don’t understand why anyone would gloat about the failure of a libertarian state. Are progressives happy that authoritarianism triumphs over liberty?
In their defense of the state, all of the most, horrible things imagined by progressives that will happen in anarchy are but a fraction of what their precious government is already doing.
@Lawrence
You are correct. Authoritarianism defeats liberty. Good job. YOU WIN>
Let’s all celebrate by paying our taxes, obeying tyranny, and telling stories about all of the terrible things that would happen in a free society!
Is there any chance we could stick to Sarah Hershberger rather than plating up opportunities for D. to promptly abandon his putative reason for showing up in the first place?
@Renate
A way to analyze animal cognition is the mirror test.
The ultimate cognition test for humans is the ability to recognize this paradox…
People are bad so we need a government of people are bad so we need a government of people are bad so we need a government of people are bad so we need a government of people are bad…
In a free society might be violent, so if we guarantee that it violent through government, then we will prevent violence?
Do I understand your argument?
@Narad – my apologies for getting off topic. At least I got something from him.
[…] who in 2013 was diagnosed with a rare but apparently “highly curable” cancer, has for much of the past year been the subject of a nationally-covered battle over […]
@Hawk Spitui:
“Tell me this: you state that given the prescribed treatment, the chance of the child’s recovery would be 85%. Given that your position is essentially that you should be able to overrule the parent’s authority in making treatment decisions for their child, would you also be willing to be held legally liable should you enforce your preferred form of treatment and the child dies anyway? I submit that those who demand authority are also obliged to bear responsibility – and associated consequences.”
Tell me, I should Orac bear such legal responsibility if, instead of giving their daughter useless herbs and spices, the Hershbergers simply couldn’t be bothered to get in their buggies and take Sarah to the hospital? ‘Cos, good intentions aside, it’s the same.
Thanks for the article.
My understanding is that the Libertarian position is that ideally the matter should be decided by a jury if mediation among parties doesn’t work. (Intersecting parental, god-parental, extended family, physician caretaker and appointed guardian rights are conditional as they’re derived of the rights of the child to fair treatment, but all deserve consideration as giving different perspectives and charged with different things the jury must consider. ) I’m not clear that anything like this jury process happened from the articles. If not, that may have been the real problem.
The Rand comments are just wrong. For info on people using voluntary Libertarian tools on similar and other issues worldwide, please see the non-partisan Libertarian International Organization @ http://www.Libertarian-International.org …
In this case, the authority resides with the state: Sarah Hershberger is a ward of the court, regardless of who the guardian is. Here the court has the legal authority to consider whether guardianship weighs so heavily in the best interests of a child as to limit parental authority because it has explicitly been granted that power by the legislature (Ohio Rev. Code § 2111), who are elected – it is not a case of common-law parens patriae.
Who do you submit should be held liable?
Reason.com lol. Here are two other health related gems from the past week or so: ‘Paleo Libertarians’ and ‘Kill the FDA (Before It Kills Again!): Dallas Buyers Club’. (Sadly, these are not articles from The Onion.) Gawd, libertarianism can be so painfully dogmatic. I don’t read much Reason bc I pretty much already know the conclusion and slant of every article. ‘Cause Big Government bad and Freedom good! And I like to like learn stuff, and nuance is my fave. So the article Orac discusses: talk about trying to shove everything into a pre existing framework. Every child has the freedom to have guardians that will not risk his or her life due to misinformation. Wait, scratch that. Because the alternative involves Government and, you know, Government bad.
Why not compare valid statistic instead of the 85 percent hogwash? In the U.S.A.:
There are about ten people per year reported to die of using prayer instead of allopathic “medicine”. Sarah Hershberger’s parents tried allopathic “medicine” but switched to prayer and traditional medicine.
There are over 100,000 people that die per year of FDA approved dope.
There are even more than that that die each year of allopathic “medicine” mistakes.
There are over 750,000 people that die each year of cancer while under allopathic “medicine” “care”.
Neither the AMA, FDA, NIH, CDC, nor other allopathic “medicine” institutions argue the statistics.
Should an allopathic “doctor”, a.k.a. allopathic sales droid, be the one to make the final decision or should Sarah Hershberger and her parents have the final decision?
somitcw, citation needed.
@somitcw,
You need 4 citations for your claims.
What statistics do the AMA, FDA, NIH and CDC not argue?
Actually, a lot of time and effort and money go into collecting the statistics that allows doctors like the author of this blog to make an informed estimate that the 5 year survival rate for standard treatment for Sarah’s cancer is 85%.
What statistics can you cite for using prayer to cure such a cancer?
Most of your claims ignore the fact that those people are being treated because they have a substantial probability of killing them.
Standard care for cancer is actually reducing those death rates, as shown here:
http://www.cancer.org/cancer/news/news/annualreport-u.s-cancer-death-rates-decline-but-disparities-remain
I pray, I hope, I wish for a lot of things.
But, when I get sick, I rely on standard medicine because I have evidence that it works.
Sarah Hershberger’s parents […] switched to prayer and traditional medicine
You mean
high doses of vitamin C and B17, oxygen therapy, detoxification methods, as well as the IV chelation to deliver some of these to Sarah’s bloodstream? Dare I ask which “tradition” these came from?
Fortunately, at the end of the day, Sarah is still a ward of the court, so you lose.
In other news, Medina County picked the wrong new vendor.
Chris posted, “somitcw, citation needed.’.
Citation for what? The 85 percent came from the article.
The ten per year dying for only prayer?
How about the American Cancer Society claim that,
“A more recent study found that more than 200 children had died of treatable illnesses in the United States over the past thirty years because their parents relied on spiritual healing rather than conventional medical treatment.”.
The ACS “conventional” means allopathic, not traditional.
A claim from elsewhere was that 73 children died over an eleven year period.
Yes, my ten per year was a bit high but still in the ballpark but you could research your own question which is better than believing my research.
If you can ask a specific question, I will try to do your research for you.
If you can’t compose a question, I won’t be able to do your research for you.
Which number that I posted look incorrect? Not which hurts preconceived notions.
Can anyone really believe that more people die from being prayed for than people die from allopathic “medicine”?
.
squirrelelite posted, “Actually, a lot of time and effort and money go into collecting the statistics that allows doctors like the author of this blog to make an informed estimate that the 5 year survival rate for standard treatment for Sarah’s cancer is 85%.”.
The strong Amish farm girl in question could not tolerate the second course of chemo and you expect people to believe that 85 percent of people survive five years of it and don’t die until the chemo is stopped? How about some real numbers? How many people start chemo? How many drop out after the first session, the second, …, the fifth? How many years does the multiple sessions take? Do any live more than a few months after the last dose?
Ignoring that it is outlawed in the U.S.A. and highly prosecuted, wouldn’t traditional medicine be quicker, cheaper, and much more effective?
.
squirrelelite posted, “What statistics can you cite for using prayer to cure such a cancer?”.
No one said that Sarah Hershberger’s parents were using only prayer. I speculate that they also prayed early on so the only change may have been a switch from allopathic “medicine” to traditional medicine. If she lives one more month, June, she will prove the allopaths wrong. The allopaths need to hurry and ramp up the attack against her traditional treatment.
Can you or anyone prove that someone would have died if not prayed for? The why ask me to prove what no one can?
.
squirrelelite posted, “Standard care for cancer is actually reducing those death rates, as shown here:”.
A hundred years ago, the standard treatment for cancer, induced fever, cured more than half so not much of an improvement. Allopathic is not about curing anything, that was traditional medicine. Allopathic actually causes issues and treats symptoms and treats and treats. That method now gives allopaths over one-sixth of the U.S. economy with worse infant mortality and worse longevity than countries that pay less than half as much.
somitcw: “Citation for what? The 85 percent came from the article.”
For the rest of the silly claims.
“Yes, my ten per year was a bit high but still in the ballpark but you could research your own question which is better than believing my research.”
No, you need to show your work. This is why we ask for citations.
“I speculate…”
So what? We don’t care about your opinions unless they are supported by facts.
“That method now gives allopaths over one-sixth of the U.S. economy with worse infant mortality and worse longevity than countries that pay less than half as much.”
Except the USA has a different standard for the definition of live births, which even includes one pound preemies that have taken at least a few breaths. Plus its backward idiotic non-universal health care system.
@somitcw,
The 85% number comes from patients who complete the consolidation phase, which was added because the recurrence rate for patients who only receive the initial phase of chemotherapy is so high.
Unfortunately, chemotherapy is not always easy or pleasant, although in many cases it has gotten better.
But dying is worse.
If you want to convince us that something else such as what Sarah’s parents chose is better, you need to provide a convincing argument and data to support it.
Your tossing out odd, unrelated numbers is like comparing Jonathan apples from my grandfather’s orchard to State Fair prize winning pumpkins.
herr doktor bimler posted, “You mean high doses of vitamin C and B17, oxygen therapy, detoxification methods, as well as the IV chelation to deliver some of these to Sarah’s bloodstream? Dare I ask which “tradition” these came from?”.
I would not recommend high doses of vitamin C to treat all cancers. High doses of vitamin C is thought to cause some cancers.
The only thing that I know is going for B-17 is that the FDA and American Cancer Society are fighting against it. It must have some use for something if both are blocking its use.
.
If I could get cancer, I would match my cancer to the appropriate traditional treatment. Perhaps first a change of diet for more vegetables and then may check Chinese herbal medicine? They have over five thousand preparations and some have been used for thousands of years with no harm. Some like Artemisinin are FDA approved but don’t hold the FDA approval against them. Hemp oil is claimed to be effective for some cancers so I could move to a freer state? Again, I would research the safest and most effective treatment that matches the specific cancer. Knowing that almost everyone that I know that has died, have died from allopathic treatment. I would not put allopathic “medicine” on the top of my list as being safe or effective. I still would consult an allopathic sales droid to get their opinion but understand that there opinion is only their money making opinion. Same as a TV sales droid.
Narad posted, “Fortunately, at the end of the day, Sarah is still a ward of the court, so you lose.”.
The last I heard, she escaped.
That means that Sarah Hershberger wins.
squirrelelite posted among other things, “If you want to convince us that something else such as what Sarah’s parents chose is better, you need to provide a convincing argument and data to support it.”.
I stated facts. If you are not convinced, tough.
I will say that in one month, Sarah Hershberger’ and her parents will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the allopaths attacking them were wrong. The one year that the allopaths claimed was the maximum time she could live without them assaulting her more is almost up.
If allopaths killing a million people per year but prayer killing only ten per year can’t convince you, I surely won’t try.
I just don’t feel up to fighting that type of logic.
Chris posted among other things,”No, you need to show your work. This is why we ask for citations.”.
What ?work? would like me to post?
Which CDC, AMA, FDA, ACS, NIH, etc. citation do you want me to find you a link to?
Wouldn’t you believe it better if you came up with your own search and found what you are trying to think about instead of me trying to guess?
None of the numbers that I posted are secret.
Have you considered the possibility of other contributing factors?
Chris posted among other things, “Except the USA has a different standard for the definition of live births, which even includes one pound preemies that have taken at least a few breaths. Plus its backward idiotic non-universal health care system.”.
I assume that you are trying to tie the live birth excuse to somehow be related to longevity or infant mortality.
Excuses are fine but wouldn’t facts be better arguments?
Prayer kills almost no one.
Real milk kills almost no one per year.
Hemp oil kills almost no one per year.
Herbs kills almost no one per year.
Tradition medicine kills almost no one per year.
Using anyone’s numbers including the allopath numbers, allopathic “medicine” kills hundreds of thousands per year.
.
I did know someone that later died in a traffic accident so believe that allopathic medicine was not involved in causing the death, but I could be wrong.
ann posted, “Have you considered the possibility of other contributing factors?”.
Like what?
I’ve seen too many people die from allopathic “medicine” mistakes, stupidity, and worse to suddenly start believing in fairy tales.
Allopaths sales droids are dangerous.
Allopathic hospitals are dangerous.
Allopathic dope is dangerous.
Buyer beware.
Hey, moron:
Nobody is reading your idiocy after they see the word “allopathic”. They know anyone using that made-up word has nothing to say that is of any interest whatsoever.
@somitcw
[citation needed] within 3 posts for your assertions, or we can assume that you have no facts backing up your claims and that you are lying to us.
“Prayer kills almost no one.
Real milk kills almost no one per year.
Hemp oil kills almost no one per year.
Herbs kills almost no one per year.
Tradition medicine kills almost no one per year.”
They don’t cure anyone, either.
novalox posted, “[citation needed] within 3 posts for your assertions, or we can assume that you have no facts backing up your claims and that you are lying to us.”.
I have posted all citations that were requested.
If people want request other citations without giving me a clue to what they want a citation for, they will get what they are asking for, which is nothing.
Is this requesting for citations without saying what they want, just obfuscation to hide that people don’t like the facts but cannot state a reason that they hate the truth?
Ok then, let’s start with this:
Shay posted, “They don’t cure anyone, either.”.
If there is no competition, then why does allopathic “medicine” see the need to outlaw and highly prosecute anyone trying to get access to traditional medicine?
If real milk, hemp oil, herbs, and other traditional treatment doesn’t harm or help anyone, then why does allopathic “medicine” have the U.S.A. and nation state governments spend billions of U.S. dollars to lockup people that are neither helping nor hurting anyone? We have millions of people locked up.
AdamG posted, “Ok then, let’s start with this:
A hundred years ago, the standard treatment for cancer, induced fever, cured more than half so not much of an improvement.”.
Are you trying to be silly? Is there someone in the world that doesn’t know that fever is needed for cancer remission?
Even allopaths know that and fight against fever anyway that they can to prolong cancer treatment.
Use any web browser and search for:
cancer, induce fever
Okay, I said a hundred years ago but it really started in the 1880s by Dr. William B. Coley but again a hundred years ago and the 1880s are close. Again, I was in the ballpark.
Of course cancer was rarer in humans before non-therapeutic vaccines. Everything from scrapping cow plus into people’s skin, to injecting them with monkey cells, to injecting them with SV40 has caused much higher cancer rates now. One of the newest assault isn’t even a vaccine. Non-therapeutic vitamin K injections given at birth have been credited with increased juvenile cancer.
Should we try to get back on topic?
Discussions about Sarah Hershberger’s cancer would be better than what we have been posting in the last few comments.
I will of course continue to provide citations when anyone specifies what I posted that they want a citation for.
somitcw:
“I would not recommend high doses of vitamin C to treat all cancers. High doses of vitamin C is thought to cause some cancers.
The only thing that I know is going for B-17 is that the FDA and American Cancer Society are fighting against it. It must have some use for something if both are blocking its use.”
You described Sarah H. as receiving “traditional medicine”. The treatment she has been receiving through the Mexican pest-hole consists of “high doses of vitamin C and B17, oxygen therapy, detoxification methods, as well as the IV chelation to deliver some of these to Sarah’s bloodstream.” Now you appear to be admitting that these are not part of any long-standing cultural or ethnopharmacological tradition. I am forced towards the suspicion that you are making stuff up as you go along.
You mean you popped in here, started babbling, and you’re not even keeping up with the story?
Citations needed:
The source of your claim that the survival rate for lymphoblastic leukemia with the full course of chemotherapy is not 85%.
The source for your claim that 100,000 people die because of FDA-approved drugs.
The source for your claim that ‘even more’ people die because of allopathic mistakes.
The source for your claim that over 750,000 people die every year of cancer while under medical care.
If those are indeed facts, then I’m sure you’ll have no problem finding the source that caused you to think they are facts. After all, facts don’t just appear magically in our heads, they must have come from somewhere.
@Somitcw….citation, you keep using that word but I don’t think you know what it means. Hint, ‘everyone knows that’ isn’t a citation.
somitcw,
“Allopathic” medicine saves millions of lives every year, far more than those that die despite treatment or because of side-effects or mistakes. That’s why we have such an aging population in the developed world (and increasingly in the developing world). There are billions of people alive today that would have died without modern scientific medicine. How can anyone possibly claim otherwise? The evidence is indisputable.
Take just one example, anticoagulant drugs may kill thousands of patients every year, but they save millions of lives. What does alternative medicine have to offer a patient with a clotting disorder that will very likely kill the patient?
You could say the same for hypoglycemic drugs that save millions from death or other effects of diabetes, but also cause many deaths. Effective analgesic drugs have transformed the lives of millions, but also cause many deaths from adverse side effects. Again, alternative medicine has nothing effective to offer.
Why do some people like to point at the failures of modern medicine while ignoring its extraordinary successes? Are they so profoundly ignorant of medical history they are unaware of these successes?
somitcw
Dude, you seem to have confused “supporting a claim with relevant citations” with “jerking off”.
@somitcw,
By “real milk”, I presume you mean unpasteurized milk. Unpasteurized milk cannot be sold across state lines, though there are at least 29 states where it is available by some means. Raw milk consumption has been the source of infections from campylobacter, salmonella, e. coli, and listeria; historically it carried the risk of causing tuberculosis. See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3461852/ for a quick overview and references to both medical and legal history.
Herbs are not illegal as a class, though some herbs are illegal or otherwise controlled; it is perfectly legal for a competent adult to treat him or herself with herbs if he or she desires. There is no good evidence that herbs are a safe and effective treatment for cancer.
Hemp oil is, in fact, legal in the US. See http://www.justice.gov/dea/pubs/pressrel/pr100901.html.
Traditional medicine is, on the whole, legal in the US for a variety of traditions.
What is not legal is to sell these products with unproven claims of benefits and safety.
To answer about X “kills almost no one.” from somitcw
First, “almost” is not the same as “none”. It’s a bit hypocritical to lump all mainstream medicine-related deaths together (including road accident, as you joked about), and then claim a free pass for your preferred form of woo because the absolute numbers are lower. Looking at relative numbers would be more enlightening (i.e. ratio of number killed over number treated)
Second, the treatments themselves could be harmless enough, but if they are useless and delay – or prevent altogether – the use of something which works, then your harmless hemp oil extract is still directly responsible for harm which could have been avoided.
The curious reader is invited to peruse the following website for a few examples of harm coming from harmless cures.
http://whatstheharm.net/
Like any other cause of death you care to name, assuming there are any that you don’t regard as fairy tales.
Because just in case it’s escaped your attention: People receiving medical attention are usually already sick.
Or try looking at it this way:
And yet, millions of people of all ages died over the course of those millennia. From numerous causes, including cancer.
^^Like that.
herr doktor bimler posted, “You described Sarah H. as receiving “traditional medicine”…
Yes, she did and the cancer appears to have gone away. She received a vegatable diet like one of the treatments that I had suggested might be used. The natural “supplements” may of may not have been herbs that I mentioned. I’m neither a traditional doctor nor chemo-dope pushing allopathic sales droid so am not involved in suggesting traditional cures or using the courts to force allopathic “treatments”. The speculation that she took also vitamin C and “vitamin” B-17, in this case did not stop the cure. To quote where you started quoting but cut off:
“He also explained how the doctors arrived at a cancer-free status. She is now on a special diet including lots of vegetables and raw foods and taking special natural supplements, as prescribed by the foreign doctors.”.
Mephistopheles O’Brien posted among other things, “Hemp oil is, in fact, legal in the US.”. See http://www.justice.gov/dea/pubs/pressrel/pr100901.html “.
Your referenced page does not agree with you. There are two mentioned of “oil”.
“Also in the lawful category are personal care products that contain oil from sterilized cannabis seeds, such as soaps, lotions, and shampoos.”.
and “salad oil” is in a list on what the DEA claims as illegal.
The first is not oil, but a product that contains sterilized oil. Not the sterilize that allopaths were trying to do to Sarah Hershberger with chemo but the type that removes benefits from hemp oil.
The second clearly says “illegal”.
If you grow hemp in your back yard and produce therapeutic hemp oil and give it away to friends or people treating a medical issue, the government will claim that you broke laws.
They will of course ignore the immutable Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence and claim that lower laws override both.
Where can people buy hemp oil to treat medical issues? If it is legal but the government blocking buying it and prosecuting parents for allowing their children benefits of it, is it really legal? People trying to add a tiny bit of medical freedom include:
http://finance.yahoo.com/video/marijuana-bill-change-schedule-class-192213492.html
To see what happens to people that even question why hemp oil is illegal:
http://www.ganjanews.org/news/mother-investigated-over-marijuana-treatments-for-son.html
Which part of either prohibits Congress from passing laws against growing hemp in your backyard?
You forgot the Constitution, btw.
True, hemp oil is illegal if it contains THC. It is not illegal if it does not. If you mean a particular form of hemp oil, please share.
It is illegal to grow hemp in the US by federal law.
Please provide some reference to show that:
– “allopaths” were trying to sterilize Sarah Hershberger with chemo
– that sterilized hemp oil has had its benefits removed.
Please also show where the bill of rights and the declaration of independence specify that you may grow hemp in your back yard.
The Grouchybeast posted, “Citations needed:
The source of your claim that the survival rate for lymphoblastic leukemia with the full course of chemotherapy is not 85%.”
The article above also says 80% and both numbers can’t be exact. Sarah Hershberger’s parents were originally told that Sarah would die in two weeks. The allopaths later said one year. The year will be up next month. The allopathic numbers are a crap shoot and constantly changing. Why do you believe in randomly picking one of the numbers and holding it up as gospel is valid?
.
The Grouchybeast posted, “The source for your claim that 100,000 people die because of FDA-approved drugs.”.
You cannot search the FDA web site yourself?
http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DevelopmentApprovalProcess/DevelopmentResources/DrugInteractionsLabeling/ucm114848.htm
“Why Learn about Adverse Drug Reactions (ADR)?
Institute of Medicine, National Academy Press, 2000
Lazarou J et al. JAMA 1998;279(15):1200–1205
Gurwitz JH et al. Am J Med 2000;109(2):87–94
Over 2 MILLION serious ADRs yearly
100,000 DEATHS yearly
ADRs 4th leading cause of death ahead of pulmonary disease, diabetes, AIDS, pneumonia, accidents and automobile deaths
Ambulatory patients ADR rate—unknown
Nursing home patients ADR rate— 350,000 yearly”
The FDA does stretch the truth. Allopathic “medicine” is the fourth “reported” cause of death in the U.S.A. as “reported” by allopathic “medicine”. If the truth be known, they win first place.
.
The Grouchybeast posted, “The source for your claim that ‘even more’ people die because of allopathic mistakes.”.
This is simple stuff. Why can’t you go to the CDC web site and do your own searches.
CDC mentions IOM reports but a good consolidation of numbers is:
http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/mistakes/common.htm
Estimates are all over. From 44,000-98,000 to 225,000.
As I mentioned, most people that I knew that died, died from allopathic medicine, not the initial issue being treated. In the U.S.A., treatment is more fatal than disease.
.
The Grouchybeast posted, “The source for your claim that over 750,000 people die every year of cancer while under medical care.”.
The American Cancer Society claims that I over stated the number:
http://www.cancer.org/research/cancerfactsstatistics/cancerfactsfigures2014/index
“In 2014, there will be an estimated 1,665,540 new cancer cases diagnosed and 585,720 cancer deaths in the US. Cancer remains the second most common cause of death in the US, accounting for nearly 1 of every 4 deaths.”.
The CDC claims is even further off my number. 301,032
Of course, my number included people that had cancer and died of treatment instead of just having people that had cancer and died of cancer which is tiny.
.
The Grouchybeast posted, “If those are indeed facts, then I’m sure you’ll have no problem finding the source that caused you to think they are facts. After all, facts don’t just appear magically in our heads, they must have come from somewhere.”.
.
You may need to learn how to search allopathic web sites yourself?
My post are now needing approval. I assUme that I have answered too many question so people may need to start checking the FDA, CDC, and other allopathic “medicine” web sites for themselves.
I’ll be cutting replies short and will stop replying to posts that don’t ask for specific citations.
Well, from a historical perspective, the Declaration of Independence doesn’t apply to our current governmental structure or legal framework – and the “immutable” Bill of Rights are constantly redefined / refined as times change as well….so not exactly a valid argument.
ann posted, “Which part of either prohibits Congress from passing laws against growing hemp in your backyard?
You forgot the Constitution, btw.”.
.
The federal government has no authority than what not given in the U.S. Constitution. Tenth amendment:
“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”
Blocking food and medicine that individuals want also violates unalienable rights and the fourth amendment.
Many other issues but I’m trying to cut my replies short.
.
P.S. Where I am, part of the time before the U.S. Constitution, people were required to grow hemp. Now with the perversion of the U.S. Constitution, we are prohibited from growing hemp. Just how much freedom was added?
Mephistopheles O’Brien posted, “True, hemp oil is illegal if it contains THC. It is not illegal if it does not. If you mean a particular form of hemp oil, please share.”.
You can’t grow hemp that does not contain THC. If hemp oil has been stripped of hemp, then it is not hemp oil and might not be the best thing to treat medical issues with.
.
Mephistopheles O’Brien posted, “It is illegal to grow hemp in the US by federal law.”.
That is what said. But the lower laws do not match the Bill of Rights nor the Declaration of Independence.
Mephistopheles O’Brien posted, “Please provide some reference to show that:
– “allopaths” were trying to sterilize Sarah Hershberger with chemo”.
Ha ha ha, to get back on topic:
http://banoosh.com/blog/2013/12/11/ohio-ends-stand-off-over-amish-girl-forced-chemo-case/
“a court ordering a little girl to be ripped away from her loving and competent parents, and forced to submit to procedures that could kill or sterilize her, simply because her parents sought to first pursue a less invasive treatment option”.
Chemo only has a reported 50 percent chance of sterilizing her and various percentages of killing her, but why shouldn’t she be allowed to have safer and more effective traditional medical treatment?
.
Mephistopheles O’Brien posted, “- that sterilized hemp oil has had its benefits removed.”.
Okay, you trying eating the soap made using a small amount of sterilized previous hemp oil and see if it cures anything. You will not notice any benefits. Trust me on this one.
.
Mephistopheles O’Brien posted, “Please also show where the bill of rights and the declaration of independence specify that you may grow hemp in your back yard.”.
Please see my last post to “ann” for that answer.
Lawrence posted, “Well, from a historical perspective, the Declaration of Independence doesn’t apply to our current governmental structure or legal framework – and the “immutable” Bill of Rights are constantly redefined / refined as times change as well….so not exactly a valid argument.”.
I have to agree with you.
Since the U.S.A. has turned his back on the law, we have lost much freedom and the economy is in the toilet.
I don’t believe that the U.S.A. will ever recover.
U.S.A. – 1776-04-07 until 2001-10-26 – R.I.P.
We now have people complaining that a family seeking safe and effective medical treatment as: “medical neglect of Sarah Hershberger”.
Allopaths gave her first two weeks to live and then after the first and partial second chemo assault, stretched that to one year which is now almost up.
A family devoting most of their their time and money for safe and effective medical treatment is not committing medical neglect. A family that turns their child over to the court system and to allopaths without parental supervision is committing medical neglect.
Sorry for the typo. It should be:
U.S.A. – 1776-07-04 until 2001-10-26 – R.I.P.
I need rest and other things so will be offline for awhile.
somitcw – perhaps fine distinctions in language are beyond you, but there is a difference between “trying to sterilizer her” and “trying to cure her, but the treatment has a small chance of the unfortunate side effect of sterilizing her”
Yes, I know. But the Constitution delegates the power to pass laws to Congress and/or the States.
That’s where the laws you’re objecting to came from. They were enacted via the exercise of constitutionally mandated powers.
The unalienable rights of individuals don’t include getting whatever food and medicine they want, whenever and however they want it. Acting like a spoiled two-year-old hadn’t been invented yet. So that was not an enlightenment ideal.
I have no idea how the fourth amendment comes into it. Where’s the search, seizure or invasion of privacy?
.
P.S. Where I am, part of the time before the U.S. Constitution, people were required to grow hemp. Now with the perversion of the U.S. Constitution, we are prohibited from growing hemp. Just how much freedom was added?
Mephistopheles O’Brien posted, “somitcw – perhaps fine distinctions in language are beyond you, but there is a difference between “trying to sterilizer her” and “trying to cure her, but the treatment has a small chance of the unfortunate side effect of sterilizing her””.
While I understand the distinction, the allopaths know what their assaults could cause. Almost certainly sickness, about 50-50 chance of sterilization, and possibly treatment caused death. It’s about allopathic income, not about doing any favors for Sarah Hershberger.
.
I will really be offline for many hours. Bye.
Oops. Forgot.
Okay. Try to stay with me here:
Article 1. Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution states:
That means they enact laws.
So how is it a perversion of the Constitution when they enact them?
It’s funny how conveniently that always seems to happen.
somitcw, just answer this simple question:
What is the chance of success that young Sarah has with the cancer treatment that her parents want versus the treatment recommendations from Akron Children’s Hospital?
Provide the PubMed indexed studies from reputable qualified researchers showing the efficacy of the treatments her parents prefer. Do not try the “medicine bad therefor this alternative works” ploy. You need to prove that her parents are making a better choice.
“Of course, my number included people that had cancer and died of treatment instead of just having people that had cancer and died of cancer which is tiny.”
Funnily enough, most people who develop cancer in First World countries seek treatment. They may, rarely, die of the treatment itself, but more often they die while under treatment (of the cancer or other causes), which people like somitcw interpret as dying from instead of dying while under treatment.
Mercifully few die of cancer without receiving any treatment for it, as somicw would prefer.
@somitcw
You do know that your citations do not agree with what you are saying.
Also, your consistent refusal to answer questions asked of you to back up your extraordinary claims have been noted.
Thats not what you claimed. You said that a hundred years ago, induced fever “cured more than half” of cancers. Do you have evidence to support this, or is it completely made up?
Let’s move on to this claim:
Evidence for this please? Or is it just as made up as the other claims?
ann posted, “Okay. Try to stay with me here:
Article 1. Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution states:
All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.
That means they enact laws.”.
So how is it a perversion of the Constitution when they enact them?”.
You may have misread. “herein granted” means that the legislative power is limited to what the U.S. Constitution authorizes.
You might want to also look at the limit specified in the tenth amendment which is part of of the immutable Bill of Rights and I have already posted.
The criminals that have taken control of the U.S. government have nullified the rule of law so the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights are not being followed.
Sarah Hershberger and her parents no longer have the unalienable right to life so can be forcible killed with chemo. They no longer have the unalienable right to liberty to make medical or nutritional decisions for themselves. They no longer have the unalienable right to pursue what they believe is their dream. They are not secure in their persons from being seized without probable cause. None of us are.
.
I have people to do and places to see. I am trying to go and will soon. Please do a few of your own searches so I don’t need to use too much my time today.
The Declaration of Independence is not a governing document of this country….that’s just a fact.
Chris posted, “somitcw, just answer this simple question:
What is the chance of success that young Sarah has with the cancer treatment that her parents want versus the treatment recommendations from Akron Children’s Hospital?
Provide the PubMed indexed studies from reputable qualified researchers showing the efficacy of the treatments her parents prefer. Do not try the “medicine bad therefor this alternative works” ploy. You need to prove that her parents are making a better choice.”.
The chance of a couple of years of chemo causing sickness, sterilization, and perhaps death to perhaps live five years is stated in the article as 80 percent and also stated as 85 percent. I don’t know if they count people outright killed with chemo, people that must stop chemo like Sarah Hershberger, and people that seek traditional medicine after finding our about the problems with chemo.
Sarah Hershberger’s treatment is between Sarah Hershberger, her parents, and the traditional doctors or allopathic sales droid as they believe is best for Sarah Hershberger. It is not my decision, the courts decision, or the fox in the hen house allopathic “medicine” decision. Sarah Hershberger and her parents did try the dope pushing allopathic sales droid method and should have the freedom to try traditional medicine and switch back and forth as much as they need to for Sarah Hershberger’s health.
Sorry for the short answer, but I have other things that need my attention today.
Hey, genius: The Declaration of Independence is rhetoric, not a legally binding document. Nobody has to “follow” it.
Sorry, Lawrence: slow fingers today.
novalox posted, “@somitcw
You do know that your citations do not agree with what you are saying.
Also, your consistent refusal to answer questions asked of you to back up your extraordinary claims have been noted.”.
What question did I refuse to answer? If you check, I have many posts answering many questions. If I missed one, why not let us know which one?
That is to say, instead of claiming that I am bad which adds nothing to the discussion, let people know how I am bad.
And he’s STILL using this ridiculous made-up word “allopathic”! Just how stupid are you, somitcw?
@somitcw
You still haven’t answered Chris’ or MOB’s questions. In particular, you have not provided any actual citations or evidence, which is really telling for you and your assertions.
somitcw is a creature of habit, it seems…posting erroneous claims and then either retreating or shifting goalposts when asked for citations. Check out its comments here:
http://news.yahoo.com/ohio-parents-fight-law-over-girl-39-forced-160122074.html
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge posted, “The criminals that have taken control of the U.S. government have nullified the rule of law so the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights are not being followed.
Hey, genius: The Declaration of Independence is rhetoric, not a legally binding document. Nobody has to “follow” it.”
Neither is the Bill of Rights being followed.
Neither is the U.S. Constitution being followed.
I already noted that more than once. If I respond enough, will you believe that the rule of law is dead?
Sarah Hershberger forced allopathic treatment attempts are just more proof that the rule of law is dead. We have no unalienable rights. We have no protection from unreasonable searches and seizures.
The government can “legally” ignore the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights to lock us up indefinitely without charge or even kill us without charge. That is the “law”, not the guarantees in the Bill of Rights and unalienable rights stated in the Declaration of Independence. The government can force “medical” treatment against us. They can add toxic waste to our water. The perversion of the U.S. legal system has ended our freedoms and destroyed our economy.
As long as Sarah Hershberger can be treated the way she is being treated, we all have lost freedom.
U.S.A. – 1776-07-04 until 2001-10-26 – R.I.P.
.
Good-bye for the day. I really mean it this time.
novalox posted, “@somitcw
You still haven’t answered Chris’ or MOB’s questions. In particular, you have not provided any actual citations or evidence, which is really telling for you and your assertions.”
.
I’m gone and have no intention to researching what you believe that I did not answer from some mob or other persons. If there was an answer missing, you could post the question and not request me to read your mind.
Good-night.
somitcw, just answer this simple question:
What is the chance of success that young Sarah has with the cancer treatment that her parents want versus the treatment recommendations from Akron Children’s Hospital?
Provide the PubMed indexed studies from reputable qualified researchers showing the efficacy of the treatments her parents prefer. Do not try the “medicine bad therefor this alternative works” ploy. You need to prove that her parents are making a better choice.
AdamG posted, “somitcw is a creature of habit, it seems…posting erroneous claims and then either retreating or shifting goalposts when asked for citations. Check out its comments here:
http://news.yahoo.com/ohio-parents-fight-law-over-girl-39-forced-160122074.html ”
Hopefully, I said that people should look up their own citations and not use my time to guess at what they are confused about and for them to do the research for themselves. That way they may also believe their own research.
You and other people claiming that I didn’t provide a citation without saying what I didn’t post a citation for is not productive. I don’t work for you. Thirteenth amendment.
I suggest that I will follow that policy now. I have cited all requested and before anyone asks for another citation, look it up yourself and if you still need me to post a citation, please tell where you have already looked so I don’t waste my time duplicating effort doing your work for you.
You know, if you’re going to use ridiculous made-up words like “allopathic”, you should at least have some idea of what they’re supposed to mean.
You regard hemp oil as a remedy for cancer. Fine. Let’s suppose it’s a universal cure for all cancers <snerk>. Does (full-strength) hemp oil cause the same symptoms as cancer? No? Then it’s a “allopathic” remedy by definition, you idiot!
Chris, posted some nonsense that appears to be asking for an allopathic “medicine” citation for a traditional treatment that I am not involved with assisting in or even knowing the traditional doctor that is treating Sarah Hershberger.
Is my above statement too absurd to comprehend?
It is for me.
Chris, if you have anything to add to the discussion, please do. Weird, left-field, unintelligible requests do not benefit the discussion.
Chris, I don’t need to prove anything to you.
.
Logging off. I may be back tomorrow, May not.
@somitcw – well, since you haven’t thus far, why start now?
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge posted,
“You know, if you’re going to use ridiculous made-up words”.
“The” is a made up word.
“Very” is a made up word.
“Reverend” is a made up word.
“Battleaxe” is a made up word.
“of” is a made up word.
“Knowledge” is a made up word.
Now, does your type of silliness add to the discussion?
Or does it detract from the discussion? I assume the later.
.
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge posted,
“like “allopathic”, you should at least have some idea of what they’re supposed to mean.”.
So you now claim that a word that you claimed was made up that you suddenly know what it means. Fast education.
.
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge posted,
“You regard hemp oil as a remedy for cancer. Fine. Let’s suppose it’s a universal cure for all cancers .”
.
I clearly stated that the cure should match the disease but now suggest that you use aspirin for all issues like broken legs, in-grown toenails, the flu, and an upset stomach.
Again, your strange statements are not adding to the discussion.
.
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge posted,
“Does (full-strength) hemp oil cause the same symptoms as cancer? No? Then it’s a “allopathic” remedy by definition, you idiot!”.
Again, your strange statements are not adding to the discussion.
Allopathic “medicine” is the one that causes damage and treats and treats for the most income that they can squeeze from people.
Traditional medicine while did want some income, concentrated on the opposite way to get the one-eye.
Traditional medicine, when legal, tried to cure disease.
Lawrence posted, “@somitcw – well, since you haven’t thus far, why start now?”.
.
I am really gone. After I click on Submit Comment, I will close Chrome within two seconds. I may be back tomorrow to see all of the posts that try to get as far away from discussing Sarah Hershberger attempted forced allopathic assault as they can.
You fu¢king imbecile:
“Homeopathic” means “causing the same symptoms as the disease they are meant to treat.” “Allopathic” means “causing different symptoms than the disease they are meant to treat”. Are you really this stupid?
@ TVRBOK:
It certainly doesn’t grasp the concept of “sticking the flounce,” that’s certain.
But I did ask you specifically. Twice. First at #134, then at #165.
Again, the specific claims I asked for citations for were that
1. Induced fever cured more than half of cancers before modern medicine.
2. Injecting people with SV40 causes cancer.
It seems like, just like every other comment thread you participate in, you are going to flounce away after being confronted with people who won’t blindly accept your claims at face value.
You do know that many of us here are actual scientists, right? Reading and interpreting scientific literature is a fundamental part of our job.
You’re an idiot. Go read Prince v. Massachusetts.
True that. He’ll be back sooner.
Anyway, thanks, all, for holding down the fort and using this particular troll as your chew toy while I’m at work.
Anyone that uses the term “allopathic” in serious conversation is not one to be taken seriously….
I do love the tactic of “I’m not going to provide citations! Look it up yourself and do your own research!” It accomplishes two things: one, it gives somitcw a (false) sense of power and superiority and two, ensures that he/she always has an out in the form of “that’s not what I was using as the basis for my (dodgy) claims; nice straw man”.
somitcw, if you provide citations to evidence that supports your claims, then everyone involved in the conversation is assured that they’re all referring to the same information. The fact that you do not provide citations suggests that you either have no evidence, that your “evidence” stinks or that you are simply trolling for reactions. Of course, these are not mutually exclusive.
Yup. The “look it up for yourself” gambit is such utter BS that anyone who uses it seriously loses, IMHO, and is no longer worthy of being taken seriously (if they ever were). If you can’t supply the citations that you use to back up your point, I won’t bother with you, other than to mock your refusal or inability to do so.
somitcw: “Chris, I don’t need to prove anything to you.”
Except you have proven quite a bit about yourself. It starts with you being more than a couple standard deviations below the mean for basic intelligence.
“Logging off. I may be back tomorrow, May not.”
And veracity is a foreign concept on your planet.
Okay, you trying eating the soap made using a small amount of sterilized previous hemp oil and see if it cures anything. You will not notice any benefits. Trust me on this one.
I defer to somitcw’s expertise in eating soap.
Nope. I read it to mean “herein granted.”
But I’m curious as to how the prohibition on growing hemp can be a perversion of the U.S. Constitution if it derives from the exercise of legislative powers that aren’t constitutionally authorized.
Please enlighten me.
I don’t need to look at it. Powers not delegated are reserved to the states or the people.
But the enacting of federal laws IS delegated. To congress.
So clearly, the founders envisioned a country in which the Blessings of Liberty and the following of federal law were not mutually contradictory.
Are we a British colony?
If the answer is no, the Declaration of Independence is being “followed.”
You haven’t pointed to an amendment that’s being violated yet, either.
But you know what? If there is one, the U.S. Constitution provides a remedy. (Hint: Starts with “j,” ends with “u-d-i-c-i-a-r-y.”)
Her parents are being forcibly killed?
Huh?
As I indicated earlier, “liberty” does not mean “you can have whatever you want without limit or regard for law.”
They have as much right to that as anybody. And they did, in fact, pursue it.
They’re talking about the seizure of property in that amendment, not persons.
.
No problem.
Sarah Hershberger’s parents were originally told that Sarah would die in two weeks
Oh really.
Ok, somitw, here’s why your analysis doesn’t hold water. It’s from The Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 8 (there’s your citation, BTW):
Thus, the Tenth Amendment does not reserve the governance of interstate commerce to the states or the people, since that power is explicitly delegated to Congress. The wisdom of Congress in making some ‘recreational’ drugs illegal is not in the scope of this discussion.
Your magic hemp oil is being legally produced, sold and used, according to a raft of references from googling ‘hemp oil utah’. The results are adorned with advertising for sale of hemp oil.
It’s legal in Colorado for production and sale; it’s legal (pending approval of regulations that implement the new law) for use in Utah. A major manufacturer in Colorado is busy expanding their facilities to meet the expected Utah demand.
There’s a study that is recruiting at the University of Utah on the actual effects of hemp oil, and what (if anything) it may actually be useful for.
There are issues, currently, of interstate commerce, that should be resolved when the new regulations are promulgated.
So, what’s your problem (except, possibly a lack of Google-fu)?
@somitcw
Again, why should anyone believe you when you will not provide any citations or actual evidence for your assertions, besides “research it yourself”
All it proves is that you have no actual evidence to support your so-called viewpoints and that you have been actively lying to all of us here the entire time.
Another winner.
“do you believe that the osamacare crime against U.S. subjects has no cost?”
You misspelled “Obanana.”
I think that in somitcw’s world the definition of citation is BS that is repeated often enough. It must be frustrating when everyone including reality refuse to bow to his wisdom.
this is a winner.
From Narad’s link, a lovely somitcw quote:
This is definitely a chew toy full of ignorance.
#200 Narad
Another winner.
“do you believe that the osamacare crime against U.S. subjects has no cost?”
You misspelled “Obanana.”
#201 Narad
this is a winner.
Obviously there are *several* somitcws, all writing in the same strange approximation of English; and while one of them really hates contemporary evidence-based medicine, another one really loves contemporary evidence-based medicine, enough to get irate about government involvement therein.
It’s amazing to me how many people make this claim, despite it being untenable given the slightest scrutiny. Is there some psychological benefit to believing we are all being killed by some evil medical conspiracy? If not, why is this such a popular delusion?
Since “allopathic” medicine was developed, life expectancy has steadily increased, in the US it has increased by 8 years over the past 50 years alone. Healthy life expectancy has also increased dramatically; a study in the US found that between 1999 and 2008 “expected years of life are getting longer, health-related quality of life is improving, and health disparities between population groups are decreasing”. People are now healthier and more active at greater ages than ever before in human history (that includes the developing world where we see similar trends). This can’t all be down to improvements in plumbing, can it?
Probably the greatest challenge to health care now and over the next few decades is our aging population, which is a direct result of the phenomenal success of modern scientific “allopathic” medicine.
Yet somitcw claims that modern scientific medicine “is more fatal than disease”. I don’t suppose I’ll get an answer, but I would love to know how s/he maintains these beliefs in the face of these facts.
I suppose the reasoning behind this proposition is:
People who are ill, get medication. Sometimes they die, while still having medication, thus medication killed them.
I suppose most people die while having medication for some condition, especially when they are old. And of course, people will die in a hospital, if they are terminally ill.
“people will die in a hospital, if they are terminally ill”
Mortality rates in hospitals are far higher than in other buildings. somitcw should stay out of hospitals at all times.
The mighty Krebiozen asks: ” Is there some psychological benefit…”
Sure, in this manner of thinking, illness and death come from OUTSIDE** and are not intrinsic and inevitable parts of life processes, making them easier to deny.
Woo-meisters make use of this human frailty- pushing negatives away, denying illness as natural- e.g.
– doctors and hospitals cause death
– meds cause mental illness
– meds cause hiv/aids
– foods cause cancer and CVD
– vaccines cause autism
( sounds like a listing of health shows @ PRN)
** remember in Frazer how illness is caused by witchcraft?
somitcw #151, 156, 159, 166, 168, 175, 182, 184
(followed by somitcw #176)
(my emphasis)
Promises, promises. I can only hope that last one remains true.
In response to Chris @180
I find myself wondering exactly what somitcw himself thinks he contributed to the discussion.
From many posts, it seems that few people are aware of even basic facts about the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger, her parents, and the freedoms in the former U.S.A. A brief sequence of events:
1. Sarah Hershberger became ill. At the time, she was 10 years old.
2. Sarah Hershberger’s parents took her to an allopathic sales droid.
3. The allopathic sales droid claimed that if the Hershbergers did not allow his long-running supposed chemo treatment plan that Sarah would die within two weeks. The apparently brain-dead Hershberger parents agreed.
4. The allopath secretly switched from the promised chemo to a harsher experimental attempt at chemo. The harsher chemo replacement meant that there was no history to back up the already hogwash 85 percent recovery rate, the already hogwash 80 percent recovery rate, or the already hogwash claim that there was only a 50 percent chance of sterility. With Sarah’s at the age of starting sexual maturity, her chances of retaining fertility were slim to none. That is to say that the allopath was probably successful in sterilizing her.
5. Sarah was taken for the second session of the harsh torture and quickly balked. That left Sarah’s parents with three choices:
a. Do nothing understanding that Sarah could possibly die without any treatment,
b. Accept the allopathic torture for two years treat, treat, treat plan to extend Sarah’s life to a guesstimate of possibly more than five years. I don’t believe that the five year goal was likely but that could just be me.
c. Go for for a two month safe and effective traditional medical cure of a good diet, cancer fighting herbs, and other cancer fighting treatment.
The Hershbergers went with “cure disease” over “do nothing” and over “treat symptoms”.
6. While the Hershbergers were deciding, the state “justice” system got involved including a hostile judge and the Child “Protection” “Services”. They committed several crimes against the Hershbergers.
7. The Hershbergers escaped. Traveled to another area in the former U.S.A. and then to Mexico for traditional medicine’s safe and effective treatment.
8. The two month cure somehow stretched into four months before it was announced that Sarah was declared free of cancer. The missing two months could be because of treatment research time, travel time, and waiting to insure that the cancer was really gone.
9. Two months after Sarah was declared cancer free, the allopaths and “justice” system eased up on their pursuit of the Hershberger. Eased up does not mean dropped.
.
A few people not living in the former U.S.A. might ask how much prison time the allopaths, allopathic hospital administrators, the judges, and the Child “Protection” “Services” workers got. They got and will get none. The reason is:
U.S.A. – 1776-07-04 until 2001-10-26 – R.I.P.
#196 herr doktor bimler posted, “Sarah Hershberger’s parents were originally told that Sarah would die in two weeks
Oh really.”.
Yes, really. It is a standard way that allopaths drum up business. Something like:
You/your son/your daughter will die/be crippled/be blind in xx minutes/hours/days/weeks unless you authorize my treat and treat and treat and only my treat and treat and treat will save you/your son/your daughter.
Not good for the victim but great for the allopath’s and hospital’s bank accounts.
#197 Bill Price posted among other things, “Ok, somitw, here’s why your analysis doesn’t hold water. It’s from The Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 8 (there’s your citation, BTW):
The Congress shall have Power … To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes; …”.
I don’t know if it is the poor education in the former U.S.A. and its replacement or that English is not your primary language.
When there was a U.S.A. it had a U.S. Constitution. The Commerce Clause in the U.S. Constitution for the former U.S.A. made it clear that nation states participated in and controlled trade with other nation states, Indian tribes, and foreign nations. It also specified that the U.S. Congress could be called upon to make trade disputes regular. It does not specify why any U.S. nation state would ever be so non-intelligence as to call on the U.S. Congress to arbitrate any trade dispute.
With and after the war of yankee aggression, the U.S. federal government took huge power grabs and passed unConstitutional laws to override much of the U.S. Constitution.
#198 novalox posted, “@somitcw
Again, why should anyone believe you when you will not provide any citations or actual evidence for your assertions, besides “research it yourself”
All it proves is that you have no actual evidence to support your so-called viewpoints and that you have been actively lying to all of us here the entire time.”.
.
I see it differently. After I supply valid web search keywords and a poster cries that they are not competent to type “sv40” in DuckDuckGo.com or less secure web search engine, there is nothing that I can say to pick out which of the thousands of sites that they will find or to pick out which side of that discussion they want to read.
When someone does look at the results from the search and needs clarification, they should ask. Please.
#200 Uselesstwit posted, “I think that in somitcw’s world the definition of citation is BS that is repeated often enough. It must be frustrating when everyone including reality refuse to bow to his wisdom.”.
I think that people wanting me to supply all of the education that they missed in school without even saying what areas they need information about is more BS.
I think that people that make ridicules posts with unspecified requests but just to complain is BS.
None of your BS forwards the discussion of the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger. Blowing smoke to try to cover the discussion provides no benefit.
#202 Chris posted, “From Narad’s link, a lovely somitcw quote:
We amputate most of the genitals of sons of poor, black, and ill-informed parents to try to decrease their population which hasn’t worked for 130 years. The amputation includes the ribs, most of the sexual nerves, and the protection for the remaining stub. The victim needs girlfriend tongue studs, ribbed condoms, and later will need viagra, or other chemicals to attempt getting normal sexual satisfaction and to fake normal human sex. In 18 states, medicaid laws partial protect sons of poor parents but not the other two groups. For 32 states, what the eugenicist step up still goes. Now, we wonder why sons of poor, black, and ill-informed have sexual issues.
This is definitely a chew toy full of ignorance.”.
.
It is a small quote that doesn’t really provide much information, but what part of it do you feel is “full of ignorance”. I’m in the former U.S.A. and the crime is common. Of the reported two percent of the human males on Earth that lose most of their genitals, about 90 percent are reported to be in the U.S.A. If the same crime was committed against a non-human animal, I would be the first to scream animal abuse and could probable make a good case.
Was your post meant to blow smoke to try to cover the discussion of the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger. Your smoke blowing provides no benefit to the discussion.
What are so many people afraid of?
Is a truthful discussion really that painful?
#203 herr doktor bimler posted smoke to detract from the discussion about the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger.
#204 Krebiozen posted smoke to detract from the discussion about the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger.
#208 Chemmomo posted smoke to detract from the discussion about the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger.
@somitcw
Again, where are your citations? You haven’t provided any, proving that you are not here for any honest discussion. You haven’t answered any of the questions the posters have asked of you as well, moving the goalposts and whining about people pointing out the innumerable flaws in your logic, as well as making false accusations.
So again, unless you provide some actual citations or evidence for your viewpoints, any rational person with some sense can dismiss you and your claims as rubbish.
New discussion:
My question is: What caused Sarah Hershberger’s cancer?
.
Probably should be ruled out:
.
1. It was not the old or newer versions of the smallpox vaccine. While scraping cow DNA from cow pus into a human’s skin is not healthy, we stopped doing that decades before Sarah was born because the smallpox vaccine provided no benefit and caused disease.
.
2. It was not monkey virus number 40, SV40, in both polio vaccines from when the first was being created in 1952 with the fast acting strain supposed removed in 1963 and the slow acting strain supposedly not in the polio after the polio vaccine type switch in 1997. The 1997 switch was to both stop injecting children with SV40 and because polio vaccines provided no benefit here and the polio vaccine before the switch caused a few deaths and some disease every year. 1997 was before Sarah was born.
.
Some possibilities:
.
1. Was Sarah injected to the injected form, not oral form, of non-therapeutic injected vitamin K and two other harmful chemicals on the day that as a newborn, she least needed it? As in zero need or negative need. It is difficult to imagine any parent being brain-dead enough to consent to that crime but Sarah’s parents did later not only allow what they were told was chemo and then even took Sarah back to receive a second round.
.
2. Did Sarah Hershberger’s parents allow non-therapeutic vaccines that contained harmful chemicals and DNA from various animals and aborted human fetuses to be injected into Sarah’s blood stream? If a vaccine was the cause, then please identify which one it was so we can try to educate parents to protect their children from it until their children can protect themselves.
.
3. This one is a bit far out but entirely possible. Some human cancer existed before allopathic “medicine” which indicates that it is possible that Sarah’s cancer might not have been allopathic induced at all? As I said, a bit far out but entirely possible.
#216 novalox posted a request for unspecified citations.
Again again again he did.
Can I assume that the request for unspecified citations means that you want me to cite the entire Internet, all libraries, all book stores, and all computer records?
.
Consider that cited.
.
Why don’t you contribute instead of blowing smoke?
Is a truthful discussion really that painful to you?
To somitcw: I apologize for misspelling your ‘nym in an earlier posting.
That taken care of: it seems that you are posting in the wrong universe. The universe you’re aiming for is one in which “former USA” is a term with meaning. In the universe you’re posting in here, the closest it could come to having meaning would be a reference to Cuba and The Phillipines, which were US possessions until the 1940’s, but which are now independent.
If you were to honor us with a coherent history of your alternative universe (rather than incoherent allusions thereto), we could understand and appreciate your rantings.
Since I was born and educated in The South, I am well aware that members of the former CSA (Confederate Sates of America) and their citizens are referring to with “War of Northern (or Yankee) Aggression”, at least in this universe. Is it the same in your universe?p>
There is no “discussion” that has issued from your rambling idiocy. You scarcely merit being ridiculed in the first place.
@somitcw
Again, your continuing refusal to post citations for your assertions as well as your continual whinging on why you cannot provide any is noted that you are lying to us.
You made the assertions, it’s your job, not ours to provide the evidence.
So why should anyone take you seriously?
Where did my html markup go in #219? Yes, I missed the < after the last paragraph, but that’s no excuse. Let’s try again; maybe it won’t be a WoT this time. I’ll also change it a bit, so my first try can safely be ignored.
To somitcw: I apologize for misspelling your ‘nym in an earlier posting.
That taken care of: it seems that you are posting in the wrong universe. The universe you’re aiming for is one in which “former USA” is a term with meaning. In the universe you’re posting in here, the closest it could come to having meaning would be a reference to Cuba and The Phillipines, which were US possessions until the 1940′s, but which are now independent.
If you were to grace us with a coherent history of your alternative universe (rather than incoherent allusions thereto), we could understand and appreciate your rantings.
Since I was born and educated in The South, I am well aware that members of the former CSA (Confederate States of America) and their citizens are referring to with “War of Northern (or Yankee) Aggression”, at least in this universe. Is it the same in your universe? If so, your history-lesson assignment can be reduced to a statement of when our universes stared being different, and the pertinent differences between your universe and ours.
It’s obvious that the differences include how the Sarah H story happened, since you’ve briefed us on how it unfolded in your universe, and we can easily compare your version with our knowledge of the history of this universe.
Has Sarah H been seen recently? I did a seach for mentions in the last month but got nothing new. I mean, given the fact that she has been totally cured with herbs, its a bit ungrateful of her parents not to show the world how good a job the Mexican clinic did. I imagine that they are struggling against big gov and big pharma, surely this is the boost they need? Probably this news is being suppressed…..yes that must be it. Although you’d think that THEY wouldn’t have time, given the number of poor, ill informed black willies they have to chop off. Goodness, how did they keep that one secret?
somitcw,
You stated that, “I don’t believe that the five year goal was likely but that could just be me”. Why do you believe that the conventional medical treatment for the type of cancer Sarah has is ineffective? Have you looked at the clinical trials that show 80-85% effectiveness? If so why don’t you believe them? Do you believe that the children in those studies are really dead from cancer, and that the researchers have lied about this?
Are you aware what happens to children with this type of cancer without treatment? Did you know that as recently as the 1970s only 32% of patients survived for 5 years? Or do you think the historical accounts of children dying from this type of cancer are fake too?
Why do you believe that the “traditional medical cure of a good diet, cancer fighting herbs, and other cancer fighting treatment” is “safe and effective”? What evidence do you have for this? Why would any rational person believe this?
Why do you believe that “the smallpox vaccine provided no benefit and caused disease”? Where do you think smallpox disappeared to? It used to kill millions and is now eradicated. How can a rational person believe that vaccination was not an important factor in this?
Why do you believe that SV40 causes cancer in humans? There have been very extensive studies of this, and cancer rates in those exposed to SV40 are no higher than in those not exposed (for example this study that included 69.5 million person-years of follow-up found lower cancer rates in those exposed to SV40 in the polio vaccine). Why would any rational person believe that SV40 causes cancer in humans?
By the way:
Cancer has existed for millions of years; wild animals get cancer, prehistoric man got cancer, even some dinosaurs show evidence of cancer. The suggestion that “allopathic” medicine is an important cause of cancer is entirely irrational.
You asked:
As Denice suggested, above, you are very clearly afraid of the truth, that we age and die, and that there is little we can do about this. As a defense you seem to have adopted a belief that there is some magical way of preventing illness and death, and that modern scientific medicine is causing it, when there is overwhelming evidence that this is not true.
From where I’m sitting it is you that is avoiding a truthful discussion. You appear to have dismissed all the scientific evidence simply because it doesn’t fit your prejudices and paranoid conspiracy theories.
Dammit, missed a link-closing tag. Sorry, but it still works.
Actually, based on the rant posted last night, it is obvious that our “friend” is completely certifiable & a nutjob…..give them enough rope and they always hang themselves.
You have to admit, though, it is *good* smoke and not just patchouli incense.
somitcw’s point 5c from #209:
So diet and herbs cure cancer. Fine. Do they cause the same symptoms as cancer? If not, then they are “allopathic” remedies!!! Stop using “allopathic” as an epithet when you believe in remedies that do not cause the same symptoms as the disease they’re meant to treat!! By your own words, you believe in the efficacy of “allopathic” remedies!
Not a word. Moreover, one might surmise that publicity hound Maurice, or at least Augenstein, would be all over the media had her cancer-free status been confirmed.
somitcw #212
I will repost my comment about you as question, asking for clarification: Exactly what do you think you are contributing to this discussion?
All I’m reading is paranoid, anti-science and anti-government rants which happen to include an inability to format the date for signing of the Declaration of Independence, and poor formatting (Hint: google html tags, and find “Enter” on your keyboard.)
It does not inspire confidence in your ability to evaluate information.
And WTF happened on Oct 26, 2001 that brought the US’s existence to an end?
Ah…according to the Weakipedia, the Patriot Act was signed into law by Bush. If I had to pick a date, it would have been January 20, 2001, when the losing candidate in the 2000 election was sworn in anyway, but they both involve Bush, so…potayto, potahto.
For anyone lurking, because this is an important issue: somitcw’s suggestion that “non-therapeutic injected vitamin K” could have contributed to Sarah H’s cancer is not only ridiculous, but also misleading and dangerous.
In 2013, four babies born in Tennessee were hospitalized because their parents refused the vitamin k injection at birth: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/814477
Anyone who prefers a more personal perspective should read this mother’s story about what happened when her daughter hemorrhaged: http://cestsibonblog.wordpress.com/2014/03/07/why-it-happened-the-truth-about-vitamin-k-deficiency-bleeding/
^^It’s possible that you don’t know how hateful the message you’re sending there is. And even probable.
But FYI:
It is.
So somitcw is simultaneously a “War of Yankee Aggression” Neo-Confederate, aligning himself with the extreme right, and also disapproves of the right wing’s wet dream, the Patriot Act. Does it seem to anyone else that he’s a little confused?
Rev: “So diet and herbs cure cancer. Fine. Do they cause the same symptoms as cancer? If not, then they are “allopathic” remedies!!! Stop using “allopathic” as an epithet when you believe in remedies that do not cause the same symptoms as the disease they’re meant to treat!! By your own words, you believe in the efficacy of “allopathic” remedies!”
No no no!!! “Allopathic” medicine means Greedy Bad A.M.A. Pharma Cut Burn Poison Suppression of Diet/Exercise/Herbs/Natural Remedies medicine!
apparently somitcw doesn’t understand that a citation means the specific details of the book/article/blogpost to which it is referring so that we can all look at it and be “reading off the same page” so to speak. Any random search for even the exact same keywords will often give different results. But even if the results were the same, that only narrows it down to whichever result any given person chooses to read, so it becomes impossible to be on the same page. So somitcw, how about if you would try to use a common citation format: I think most of us here would be happy with a link to the citation you want us to consider as evidence to your position.
As to search engine, IIRC there are assorted search engines that tout their untraceability–you search, someone compiling data on can’t find you, and I think Duck Duck Go is one of them. Telling that somitcw is flogging it.
I dunno. Such an announcement would interfere with Augenstein’s appeals for donations “for Sarah’s family”.
@TVBoK
Oh no, it’s crystal clear. The right-wing politicians who signed the Patriot Act did so in Washington, DC, i.e. in damn Yankee country. Ergo, they are not his right-wing
nuttiespoliticians and should be ignored.But nobody has done this, now have they? Do you think SV40 is breaking news or something?
“Clarification”? Here. Short and sweet. Go clarify yourself.
#233 Chemmomo, May the fourth be with you. . . . posted among other things:
“For anyone lurking, because this is an important issue: somitcw’s suggestion that “non-therapeutic injected vitamin K” could have contributed to Sarah H’s cancer is not only ridiculous, but also misleading and dangerous.”.
.
Your first website is kept secret until joining. I’ll let them keep their secret and will not join. I assume that it is a fairytale about some child that weeks, months, or years after birth had some bleeding issue ignoring that vitamin K depletes in about two days.
From your second web site:
http://cestsibonblog.wordpress.com/2014/03/07/why-it-happened-the-truth-about-vitamin-k-deficiency-bleeding/
“The sad thing is that while it is extremely rare, recent years have seen children suffering from VKBD more and more often.”.
Which is a strange statement for an article to print when trying to say that vitamin k has some benefit.
.
For people that don’t understand vitamin k in the human body:
Vitamin k is named for the German spelling of the word coagulate.
First found in chickens but is in fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds, mammals, etc.
Human vitamin k is created by bacteria in the gut and must be replenished constantly.
Without it during gestation, some fetal organs will not develop properly.
Since a fetus does not produce any vitamin k, the mother supplies it.
At a live birth, a newborn has natural vitamin k from their mother but it depletes in about two days. A newborn does not produce natural vitamin k until it is about their sixth day. That is one reason that Jewish traditional snip of the male genitals or the current amputation of most of the male genitals must be done within the first two days of birth or after the sixth day. The eighth day was designated. The third to fifth or sixth day gap in vitamin k has been normal for blood clotting for millions of years. It is natural and seldom causes issues. If a magic issue ever appeared, oral synthetic vitamin k could be used on any days from the second to the fifth or sixth. We don’t know what harm oral synthetic vitamin k causes. We should of course never treat an issue that doesn’t exist with non-therapeutic medication or non-therapeutic procedures because neither will cure what doesn’t exist and all medicine can cause harm. i.e. Use treatment when needed, never just to help allopathic bank accounts. They don’t need the help.
Injected non-therapeutic synthetic vitamin k with two other harmful chemicals given at birth on top of the natural vitamin k that the baby already has in spades will probably not overdose the child on vitamin k, but will do no good. Reports of an increase of juvenile cancer of one in a thousand victims does indicate that harm can be caused. Sarah Hershberger’s cancer might be from a newborn non-therapeutic injected synthetic vitamin k with two other harmful chemicals injection. I don’t know.
There is much more juvenile cancer than any supposed VKBD. Why risk killing thousands of children with juvenile cancer by using an absurd method to stop blood clotting issues? There is money to be made treating cancer but that is not the best reason to use.
For anyone that is confused about the rise and fall of the United States of America:
There were people that did not want to live under a government that they viewed as oppressive. Not near as oppressive as a government that would order a 10 or 11 year-old farm girl to be injected with unproven experimental chemicals that were too harsh for her to tolerate. But back then, it was a government that they considered oppressive.
Some of the people wrote a Declaration of Independence that said that the creator gave people the right to make decisions for themselves. Their rights were not from any governmental authority.
A war was fought and the oppressed nations won.
The previously oppressed nations formed a confederation for mutual benefit and protection with extreme limits on what politicians could do to the nation states and to the people.
Politicians hungry for power were not satisfied so the second attempt created the Constitution that defined the previous confederation as the United States of America. Yes, the fall of the U.S.A. started before it started.
The Constitution for the creation of the United States of America was soundly defeated by a margin of twelve to one. There were not enough limits placed on the politicians. To push the U.S. Constitution through, amendments were offered and the ones selected became the immutable Bill of Rights. It was the guarantees of the immutable Bill of Rights that kept the U.S. Constitution in force.
Since then, politicians continued to try to take power from the nation states and from the people. Sometimes the nation states and people were successful in the tug-of-war but mostly, the politicians won. Some notable losses for the nation states and the people:
The war of yankee aggression almost abolished nation states rights to the extent that I should drop the “nation” adjective.
Federal Reserve took control of the money supply.
The way that the Federal income tax is collected destroyed much freedom.
Socialistic Security was a big step toward socialism.
“Patriot” act and current NDAA directly override the immutable Bills of Rights which nullifies the U.S. Constitution.
Judges electing one president and violating the first requirement of the former U.S. Constitution by allowing a “president” that did not have both parents U.S. Citizens at birth and the same one that renounced all various previous citizenship to become an Indonesian and let that lapse. Without any country, he can’t be accused of being a traitor to it.
Entire purpose of the TSA is to violate the fourth amendment. Other alphabet agencies also routine harm people and ignore their rights.
Osamacare took over one-sixth of the economy and gave the IRS direct access to our bank account information and our medical records.
Okay, that can’t be a real person. It has to be a bot that steals fragments from various conspiracy websites and posts them together…..
A link in one of my previous posts 3154 describes the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger better that I can. Perhaps mr.z is a professional?
http://banoosh.com/blog/2013/12/11/ohio-ends-stand-off-over-amish-girl-forced-chemo-case/
A quote from the article:
“The Hershberger family had been through a medical nightmare this Summer and Fall that began when Andy and Anna’s 10-year-old daughter Sarah received chemo for leukemia, unwittingly a part of a secret research experiment. After the experimental chemo made her too ill to function, the parents opted for natural protocols with the support of two court rulings.”.
Let’s get back to the point, somitcw. do you have evidence to support your assertion that
#243 Lawrence posted, “Okay, that can’t be a real person. It has to be a bot that steals fragments from various conspiracy websites and posts them together…..”.
.
What conspiracy? Sarah Hershberger really does exist.
She was really injected with unproven experimental chemicals in place of chemo.
Her parents really did get court approval to try traditional medicine. Twice.
The allopaths really did finally convince a third court that traditional cures are bad and that allopathic bank accounts are good.
Sarah and her family really did escape.
Where do you see a conspiracy?
Um, no. Did you even read the article you’re commenting on?
#245 AdamG, posted, “Let’s get back to the point, somitcw. do you have evidence to support your assertion that
Everything from scrapping cow plus into people’s skin, to injecting them with monkey cells, to injecting them with SV40 has caused much higher cancer rates now”.
.
The point would be about the crimes that were committed against Sarah Hershberger and her family, but:
.
Me have evidence? I do not do medical research but for over two hundred years, people have been complaining about the smallpox vaccine. Even the Holy Bible mentions that mixing animals with humans is not a good thing.
.
If you want to see that cancer rates now are higher than historical numbers, just check any cancer related allopathic web site. It’s not secret.
.
AdamG, do you have proof that injecting dangerous chemicals and foreign DNA into children is a good thing. That include non-therapeutic vaccines grown in monkey tissue, non-therapeutic vaccines grown in aborted human fetus tissue, and the newest rumor is that adding insect DNA to the non-therapeutic flu shot may happen.
And, unsurprisingly, this is a overflowing crock of sіt, as is this:
Quick: What’s the size of a Vero cell? What level of filtration is applied to the relevant vaccines?
^ “crock of shіt”
(I’m wondering whether that Unicode does something I wasn’t expecting.)
Oops, I misspoke about the insect rumor. It’s not a rumor.
The FDA already approved growing the flu shot in insect tissue and adding insect virus to the flu shot.
I was wrong. It’s past the rumor stage now.
Before someone screams that I didn’t post proof without saying what they want proof for:
http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2013/01/fda-approves-first-flu-vaccine-grown-insect-cells
#249 Narad continues blowing smoke that I try to ignore but,
Narad, the filters did not remove viruses like SV40, inactivated polio, attenuated polio, attenuated measles, attenuated mumps, attenuated chickenpox, or other viruses so why do you expect the the filter to stop animal DNA. Someone did explain to you that some chunks of animal DNA can be smaller than viruses, didn’t they?
Injected non-therapeutic synthetic vitamin k injections contains some chemicals that are even smaller than DNA and should not be injected into a human.
What are the risks of being exposed to animal DNA, somitcw?
Good G-d, you’re stupid. Flublok was approved over a year ago. Nobody’s “adding” anything, Epsilon-Minus. Here.
You said “monkey cells,” shіthead. Do you simply forget the gibberish that you’ve typed the moment you hit “submit”?
@Narad – this is one grade A crazy, that’s for sure….probably doesn’t realize that he consumes animal DNA every single day….
probably doesn’t realize that he consumes animal DNA every single day….
Oh. but that’s different. Animal DNA in vaccines gets injected into your bloodstream donchaknow?
*ducks and runs*
Hey, idiot: are you ever going to acknowledge that you don’t know what the word “allopathic” is supposed to mean, and stop using it?
#253 AdamG posted, “What are the risks of being exposed to animal DNA, somitcw?”.
.
I’m don’t plan to let anyone inject anything into my veins that contains animal DNA unless it is therapeutic. If therapeutic, I will then weigh benefits compared harm. When dying of a snake bite, the benefits go way up.
.
Ground up and altered foreign DNA has animal retro viruses and can include other diseases from other species. Examples include SV40, the non-therapeutic feline leukemia vaccine that caused parvovirus in many animals and a few humans, reaction from therapeutic rabies vaccine, 47,500 reported non(wild)polio polio cases in just 2011 in just India from the non-therapeutic attenuated polio virus OPV polio vaccine, and injecting people with dangerous chemicals and DNA fragments might help account for cancer and other disease rates increases?
One in six children entering school here now have a reported physical or mental issue. I can assure you that it wasn’t like that sixty years ago.
.
Why is it PC to talk about vaccine-induced disease, VID, in animals, but not talk about all of the children being damaged?
Unless you underwent a metamorphosis and became a dung beetle (not a far-fetched hypothesis judging from your posts), I doubt you have much to worry about insect viruses.
@somitcw
Shorter somitcw “blah, blah, speculation, blah, no citations, blah WHHHAARRRGGGGRRRBBLL!!!eleventyone!!1!”
Unfortunately not a big enough step. One can either be a socialist or a sociopath, somitcw: which are you?
Yeah, that pretty much was the end of democracy in this country.
Where do you idiots get this “both parents” bullshıt? It’s sure as hell not printed in any constitution I’ve ever seen. Only one of your parents has to be a citizen for you to be a “natural-born” citizen. Since President Obama was born in the U.S., actually neither of his parents needed to be citizens for him to be a “natural-born citizen”. How do I know you’d give Bobby Jindal a pass when neither of his parents were citizens when he was born.
You can’t renounce U.S. citizenship without going to a U.S. embassy and filing a paper to that effect. Nobody has suggested that President Obama did any such thing, so his “natural-born” citizenship was, and is, in effect.
You really are out of your freakin’ mind, you know.
Once again, for the 5th time now, do you have any proof that SV40 causes disease?
So Ted Cruz, the darling of the Tea Party, is out. Not only was his father Cuban, Ted Cruz was born in Canada… And he wasn’t born in a US territory within Canada, like John McCain was in Panama.
Oh, the goalposts… How they shift.
Wrong again, Captain Fail.
I misspoke. A dung beetle is much more selective in the sh!t it’s carrying around.
Not true.
It could have viral DNA, retro or otherwise. But without the dedicated machinery to excise this DNA (machinery only found inside cells), and wrap it in the appropriate form inside a virus capside, this viral DNA is about as much a threat as a discarded kleenex tissue.
In short: it’s garbage.
Every day, you have plenty of of your own cells (including a few thousands neurons) who die and disgorge their content, broken chains of DNA included. Do you thing your body is unable to manage a bit more of garbage?
Vaccines are usually non-therapeutic. If you got the disease, it’s a bit too late to give your immune system some target practice in the form of attenuated or dead viruses.
The fact that vaccines are a nice form of preventative medicine seems to go over your head.
Yeah. The operative part is “entering school”. Sixty years ago, it was “when one has children like this, one hides them”.
#256 Lawrence posted, “@Narad – this is one grade A crazy, that’s for sure….probably doesn’t realize that he consumes animal DNA every single day….”.
.
I’ll be happy to give up my lunch for you to inject it into your bloodstream.
I’ll include chicken egg parts and peanut parts so you can become allergic to eggs and peanuts. Call it the non-therapeutic somitcw vaccine.
Ren @ 264:
Actually, the McCain thing is kind of amusing. At first, apparently he or his staff believed the urban legend that you had to be born in the U.S. or a territory to be president. Therefore, the first bio he gave out had him being born in a hospital inside the Canal Zone. When it was pointed out that hospital didn’t exist at the time, somebody looked up the actual requirements and realized that his parents were citizens, making him natural-born, so they issued a new bio with the presumably correct birthplace in Colón—outside the Canal Zone.
#262 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge posted among other things:
“Where do you idiots get this “both parents” bullshıt? It’s sure as hell not printed in any constitution I’ve ever seen.”.
.
From the Constitution of the former U.S.A.:
“No person except a natural born” … “shall be eligible to the office of President;”.
John Jay and George Washington added it because they wanted to insure full U.S. Constitution alligance from birth for anyone that was to protect, preserve, and defend the Constitution for the U.S.A. and how right they were.
Note, it is important enough to be listed first.
The definition at that time was from the “Law of Nations” when the definition included for an obsolete requirement of a geographical location.. “Law of Nation” says:
“natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens”.
The U.S. 1790 Immigration Act dropped the geographical location requirement part of the legal definition.
And, no I will not give you a link to the Constitution of the former U.S.A. or other publicly available documents.
Soetoro/Bounel/Obama is not a natural. If the U.S.A. still existed, he would be Constitutionally ineligible to be the U.S. President or to be impeached from the office. With no U.S.A., he still can’t be the U.S. President or impeached from it.
I grew wings after a mosquito bite injected its DNA into my veins! True fact!
Obama was born in the United States. One of his parents was a U.S. citizen. Either one of these facts would make him a natural-born citizen. You haven’t got the slightest fuçking idea what you’re talking about.
I guess that’s to be expected from some idiot who keeps using the word “allopathic” with no idea what it’s supposed to mean.
Guys, it is obvious that this guy is certifiable & probably very good friends with old John Best (given his arguments up to this point)….
Gee, I guess it’s a good fυcking thing that vaccines aren’t injected into your veins, now isn’t it?
You’re not able to do this, for two reasons: (1) You’re completely fυcking brain dead. (2) There is no harm that you’ve been able to enunciate. This probably has something to do with, I dunno, the fact that THERE ISN’T ANY PLAUSIBLE BASIS FOR ANY.
What do you think random DNA fragments are going to do? Do you even know what DNA does? Do you know where it does it? How the fυck do you get little naked bits of it to pull this fυcking stunt off, jackass?
#263 AdamG posted, “Ground up and altered foreign DNA has animal retro viruses and can include other diseases from other species. Examples include SV40,
Once again, for the 5th time now, do you have any proof that SV40 causes disease?”.
.
Can you, not me, but you prove that it does or doesn’t? Didn’t think so.
.
Correlation is not prove causation but some history:
After early non-therapeutic polio testing against children, several new or rare cancers and pre-leukemia started showing up.
In 1955-1956, the non-therapeutic vaccines were tested on rodents and the rodents got cancers. Since it took a long time for the cancers to develop, it was thought that no one would tie the non-therapeutic vaccine to cancer.
In 1963, the fortieth monkey virus, SV40, was identified in the polio vaccines.
The polio lots were tested but the test was cut too short to detect all SV40. Only the fast-acting SV40 was detected. Lots known to have SV40 were pulled.
In 1997, people were still getting SV40 cancers that were vaccinated after 1963 so there was possibly incorrect speculation that SV40 could spread person to person. A new study allowed the SV40 test to run long enough to detect slow acting SV40. No one is saying if SV40 can or cannot spread outside of vaccines.
The U.S.A. immediately switch to the non-therapeutic inactivated polio virus IPV polio vaccine in the hopes that SV40 was not in it and also because the non-therapeutic attenuated polio virus OPV polio vaccine caused disease and a few deaths every year.
.
Since the SV40 crimes were before Sarah Hershberger was born, why is this type of question, and my answer, in a discussion about the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger and her family?
Wow, he’s even made Narad hot under the collar. Has that ever happened before? This specimen does seem to be supremely annoying.
Sure I can. In fact, Krebiozen already did just this in comment #224, which you clearly didn’t bother to read.
Here’s some proof to get you started:
http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/95/7/532.abstract
I’ve shown you mine, now you show us yours: present the evidence that personally convinced you that SV40 causes cancer.
#271 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge, please see #269 somitcw.
The four times that the U.S. Supreme court used the term “natural born”, they used the real definition, not your dream.
How can our schooling be so poor that people think that the legal definitions for different words and phrases all mean the same thing?
“natural born citizen” = “citizen” = “born citizen”=”mother not old enough to confer citizenship” = “naturalized” = “repatriated” = “born an CUKC” = “later became a Kenyan” “later adopted and schooled as an Indonesian” = dozens of other things.
#275 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge posted, “Wow, he’s even made Narad hot under the collar. Has that ever happened before? This specimen does seem to be supremely annoying.”.
.
Perhaps learning the truth really can be painful?
None of your crap about citizenship is true. You are quite simply out of your mind. Bobby Jindal was born in the U.S. and that makes him a natural born citizen, even though neither of his parents were even naturalized citizens when he was born. Idiot that he is, he’s perfectly eligible to be president (gawdelpus!)
Since Obama was born here, and one of his parents was a natural-born citizen (born of natural-born citizen parents), how in the hell is he less eligible than Bobby Jindal?
Define “allopathic”.
Which is why it is possible for a foreign national to give birth to a child on US soil, hereby making that Child a US citizen by birth (regardless of the status of his parents) and a natural-borne citizen at that.
#276, AdamG posted, “Can you, not me, but you prove that it does or doesn’t? Didn’t think so.
Sure I can. In fact, Krebiozen already did just this in comment #224, which you clearly didn’t bother to read.
Here’s some proof to get you started:
http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/95/7/532.abstract
I’ve shown you mine, now you show us yours: present the evidence that personally convinced you that SV40 causes cancer.”.
.
You cited a study that had no participants vaccinated before the polio vaccine had SV40, 1952 vaccine first created, and no participants vaccinated after the SV40 was finally removed from the U.S.A. polio vaccines in 1997.
I assume that the 1969 peak was the last breath of the fast acting SV40 that was supposedly removed in 1963.
Ok, here’s one that did:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=15286015
Now it’s your turn to present the evidence that personally convinced you that SV40 causes cancer.
#280 Lawrence posted, “Which is why it is possible for a foreign national to give birth to a child on US soil, hereby making that Child a US citizen by birth (regardless of the status of his parents) and a natural-borne citizen at that.”.
.
What does this have to do with the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger and her family. The former U.S.A. fell before Sarah was born.
.
A citizen is not the same as a born citizen is not the same as a natural born citizen. They are different. Please read either the law or history and try to ignore your believing that you can change legal definitions using your dreams.
.
U.S. “president” Arthur at least had the sense to hide that his father did not become a U.S. citizen until after Arthur was born. He even had his papers burned. Perhaps the schools were better in “president” Arthur’s time?
“In the hopes”? Jesus Christ. Anyway, no, you’re wrong again, CJD. The U.S. continued using OPV in the schedule until 2000. The switchover was because that’s what you fυcking do when VAPP is a greater risk than wild disease, not because of your shіtwitted cancer babbling, the nature of which has ALREADY BEEN POINTED OUT to you.
Because you brought it up, slapdіck. Now start answering some g-ddamned questions rather than flailing around in circles like you’ve been brained with a fυcking two-by-four.
Does. Not. Fu¢king. Matter. He was born here, that’s all that matters. Phil Sheridan (of “The only good Indian is a dead Indian” fame) had every intention of being president one day, so he lied about being born in the United States (even though he was born on the boat on the way over from Ireland). He knew that made him eligible for the presidency—why don’t you?
Define “allopathic”.
#279 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge posted, “None of your crap about citizenship is true. You are quite simply out of your mind. Bobby Jindal was born in the U.S. and that makes him a natural born citizen, even though neither of his parents were even naturalized citizens when he was born. Idiot that he is, he’s perfectly eligible to be president (gawdelpus!)
Since Obama was born here, and one of his parents was a natural-born citizen (born of natural-born citizen parents), how in the hell is he less eligible than Bobby Jindal?
Define “allopathic”.”.
Is your Bobby Jindal a born citizen or a natural born citizen.
Note that one phrase as a different number of words and letters in it than the other one has.
Note, the Constitution of the former U.S.A. sets specific restrictions that were required to be met before someone could become a U.S. President. Everyone in the former U.S.A. did not need to meet the identical requirements.
.
If you want a definition of allopath, instead of blowing smoke here, go look it up.
.
Why does discussing crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger and her family hurt so much that you need to go so far off topic to set up a smoke screen about Bobby Jindal?
As the phrase “natural born citizen” is not defined in the Constitution, so the definition is subject to interpretation by the courts. According to the Congressional Research Service report titled “Qualifications for President and the ‘Natural Born’ Citizenship Eligibility Requirement” at http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42097.pdf,
As Barack Obama was a citizen by birth (having been born on US soil to a parent who was a citizen), he qualifies under the law as a natural born citizen.
Please enumerate the crimes committed against Sara Hershberger and her family. In particular, please cite the statutes broken. Thanks.
As a naturalized citizen of the USA, I’ve got to ask somitcw to define, in his own words, the difference between these states of citizenship that he’s going on about.
I certainly don’t remember them coming up in the paperwork or on the test…
#282 AdamG posted, “You cited a study that had no participants vaccinated before the polio vaccine had SV40
Ok, here’s one that did:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=15286015
Now it’s your turn to present the evidence that personally convinced you that SV40 causes cancer.”.
.
So you found a “maternal seroconversion to simian virus 40” that agrees with me that “No one is saying if SV40 can or cannot spread outside of vaccines.”.
.
And other than you trying to blow smoke to cover-up the discussion of the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger and her family, so what?
Johanna – presumably anyone born by Cesarean section, and possibly several other medical techniques, would not be considered natural born.
No, YOU fu¢king look it up, you cretin!!!!!!
I’m the one of us who knows what it means.
You’re the one of us constantly using it, despite NOT knowing what it means!!!!!!!
Buttmunch!
What? the authors of that paper found that “children whose mothers had received pre-1963 poliovirus vaccine during pregnancy (22.5% of the children) had an increased incidence of neural tumors.”
How does that possibly square with your idea that SV40 from polio vaccine causes cancer? Again, if you actually posted the citation that personally convinced you that SV40 causes cancer we might be able to have a reasonable discussion about this, instead of the dodges and goalpost-shifts you’ve regurgitated so far.
As for “the discussion of the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger and her family,” how can such a discussion take place when you’ve yet to list a single example of such a crime?
#285 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge blew smoke among other things, “Does. Not. Fu¢king. Matter. He was born here, that’s all that matters.”.
.
Yes, you are correct. With the U.S. Constitution being nullified so the U.S.A. not existing anymore, the U.S. Constitution is not followed. It is now considered lower than toilet paper.
.
If we could restore the U.S.A., then the U.S. Constitution would matter again. Putin’s attempt to reunify the former U.S.S.R. has a better chance of succeeding than restoring the former U.S.A.
.
Do you understand that we have people like you screaming to ignore the rule of law, the Declaration of Independence, the immutable Bill of Rights, and the U.S. Presidential requirements in the former Constitution for the U.S.A.
Is it just because of our poor schools or are people taking the complacency medication straight without mixing it into our water supply?
.
You don’t need to answer. I have to go, like now. Bye.
Hey, who the fυck am I?
Maybe if you could remember that was you who for no reason felt obliged to start this shіttrain rolling down the track just a few hours ago, you wouldn’t need to be sniveling now about its being off-topic, NOW WOULD YOU?
Be bloody, bold, and resolute. Laugh to scorn
The power of man, for none natural-born citizen of the US
Shall harm Macbeth.
herr doktor bimler – Indeed. You’ll notice there has never been a US president named Macduff for this very reason.
May 2:
“I need rest and other things so will be offline for awhile.”
“I will really be offline for many hours. Bye.”
“I have people to do and places to see. I am trying to go and will soon.”
“I have other things that need my attention today.”
“Good-bye for the day. I really mean it this time.”
“I’m gone and have no intention to researching what you believe that I did not answer from some mob or other persons…. Good-night.”
“Logging off. I may be back tomorrow, May not.”
“I am really gone. After I click on Submit Comment, I will close Chrome within two seconds.”
I’m a Campbell on my mother’s side. I always used to joke about looking for a connection between her and the extinct Campbells of Cawdow. Glams… and queen hereafter. Heh.
Er, that would be “Cawdor”.
My kingdom for a preview button! 😉
somitcw: “One in six children entering school here now have a reported physical or mental issue. I can assure you that it wasn’t like that sixty years ago.”
The “one in six” is the ratio that is one standard deviation either above or below the mean in a normal distribution. The one is six above are those with much higher than average intelligence. Those that are below have the lower than average intelligence.
It is obvious that somitcw is at least two standard deviations below the mean for intelligence.
Guys – again, obvious that we are dealing with a complete loony here….though I’m sure you’re having fun kicking him around…again, this guy and John Best must have been separated at birth.
Chris – were you aware that 50% of students are rated below the median? Shocking, yet true.
Wow, are you a sucker.
Is there anything you believe that ISN’T proto-fascist propaganda from the first half of the 20th century?
Talk about fairy tales.
Hater.
But tell me. How old does the mother have to be to confer citizenship, in your loony reading of the matter?
Lawrence – I haven’t had a chance to trade Shakespeare quips in years.
@ann – my assumption would be he thinks that the mother must be of “age” or over the age of 18….which is complete baloney.
Again, this person has lost control of most, if not all of his / her faculties and is probably close to be being certifiably insane or at least have nothing but the most tenuous grasp on reality. I’ve seen street-corner prophets that knew more about reality than this person does.
I love this blog so much, but when the nut cases show up . . . pure bliss.
somitcw,
But neonatal vitamin K doesn’t cause cancer.
Not true, age-corrected cancer rates have been falling for the past 15 years. Why age-correct rates? Because cancer risk increases with age, and so of course we see more cancer when we have more elderly people than ever before. We have to correct for age to see what rates are really doing, which is going down.
You didn’t look at the study I linked to that found lower rates of cancer in people exposed to SV40 in the polio vaccine then?
Personally I would prefer a vaccine reaction to rabies, but maybe that’s just me.
That’s a blatant lie. There were only a handful of cases of vaccine-associated polio in 2011, fewer than one case per million doses of vaccine. Non-polio AFP is not caused by the polio vaccine, it is caused by factors other than polio; other enteroviruses, injuries, snakebite etc.. It only appears to have increased since active surveillance started – is it really surprising they found more cases of acute flaccid paralysis when they started actively looking for them?
What “dangerous chemicals” are we injecting people with in a dose that could conceivably cause any harm? What evidence is there to even suggest a link between vaccines and “cancer and other disease rates”? We know that vaccines have saved countless lives, and prevented incalculable suffering. The various fears you express are for the most part disproven and the rest are extremely implausible. Thankfully most rational people recognize this, and support vaccination.
@TVBORK
You must have missed Delysid who ticked all the glibertarian boxes from AGW denialism to rape apologist. Narad roasted him on a spit.
@Lawrence
I dunno. Given its other archaic notions, it would probably thing any girl that’s reached puberty is “of age”. If they haven’t reached puberty, then no child that they bear would be a “natural born citizen”. Ignore the whole problems involved with how childbearing works. Perfectly consistent with its other inconsistent and self-contradictory statements.
@Krebiozen
What? You mean you want a greater than 3 out of however many thousands chance of not dying from rabies?
somitwc is a birfer. Nothing anyone says is going to make it past the tinfoil hat/brain barrier.
M O’B: “Chris – were you aware that 50% of students are rated below the median? Shocking, yet true.”
And somitcw is in that special 2% who can barely type on a keyboard.
Re: the “mother not old enough to confer citizenship” baloney, I think somitcw is totally misinterpreting (shocker, I know) the law about how long a naturalized citizen has to reside in the United States in order for her citizenship to be transferred to her child if it happens to be born outside the United States, I know, usually birthers are so knowledgeable, it’s a poser!
@ Ann
The more somitcw posts, the more it sounds like a perfect clone of General Ripper from the movie Dr Strangelove. Obsessed with the purity of his bodily fluids, has very strong beliefs on what is a true american…
Re: “complacency medication”, mentioned above. Between my toothpaste, my mouthwash, and the water I was drinking in North America, I got plenty of fluoride. Let me ask my current and former bosses and colleagues how much a mellow, complacent fellow I am.
*beat*
Sorry, I could not get a straight answer, they all went into vociferous laughter.
“You must have missed Delysid who ticked all the glibertarian boxes from AGW denialism to rape apologist.”
I prefer “gibbertarian”.
#293 AdamG posted, “What? the authors of that paper found that “children whose mothers had received pre-1963 poliovirus vaccine during pregnancy (22.5% of the children) had an increased incidence of neural tumors.”
How does that possibly square with your idea that SV40 from polio vaccine causes cancer? Again, if you actually posted the citation that personally convinced you that SV40 causes cancer we might be able to have a reasonable discussion about this, instead of the dodges and goalpost-shifts you’ve regurgitated so far.
As for “the discussion of the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger and her family,” how can such a discussion take place when you’ve yet to list a single example of such a crime?”.
.
You posting a connection of mothers supposedly passing SV40 to children may also show that SV40 causes cancer but that doesn’t prove that being injected directly with SV40 in non-therapeutic polio virus from 1952/3 until 1997 also causes cancer.
Better evidence would be the 1955-1956 tests showing that the non-therapeutic polio vaccines caused tumors in the rodents or videos from the creators and distributors of the non-therapeutic polio vaccine that state that polio vaccine. Apparently there are issues with people being able to look up anything on the Internet so here:
There are dozens of other web pages that believe the many factually reports that show SV40 caused cancer. That was one of the reasons that the U.S. stopped the non-therapeutic attenuated polio virus OPV polio vaccine. It wasn’t only stopped becausing of the children getting polio from it every year. Just an example of one SV40 cancer:
a. Someone has an irritant like smoke, asbestos, etc.
b. Area is inflamed.
c. SV40 causes tumors, in this example, mesothelioma.
d. Victim normally dies of allopathic treatment but possibly from the tumors themselves. It can happen.
e. If the tumors are caused by SV40 and someone is looking for the cause, then SV40 is found in the tumors. If someone’s job depends on not finding SV40, then the SV40 has the ability to hide.
.
Why do you need me to list any of the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger again?
a. Allopaths enrolled Sarah Hershberger in a nonproven experimental study without her parents or her knowledge or permission.
b. Allopaths used unproven experimental chemicals on Sarah Hershberger without her parents or her knowledge or permission. The unproven chemicals have never cured cancer in any human in the history of mankind.
c. Allopaths did their job. That is they tried to maximize monetary benefit for themselves and for the allopathic hospital and knowing that there would be no return business, their job would need to negate having any human concern for their customers. Allopaths also did their job with their obligation to force Sarah Hershberger to stay enrolled in the secret unproven experimental chemical study.
d. Allopaths fought the Hershbergers with Child “Protective” “Services” and the courts.
The first judge sided with the Hershbergers. I don’t know if he was just following the law or that he understood that traditional medicine that has been used for thousands of years is safer and more effective than torturing a ten, eleven, twelve, and then thirteen year old child with unproven chemicals.
Over two years of harsh unproven treatments does not sound like fun.
e. After CPS and the allopaths losing, CPS and the allopaths fought the Hershbergers in court a second time.
f. After CPS and the allopaths losing again, allopaths fought the Hershbergers in court a third time and finally got a crooked judge that ignored both the law and the health of Sarah.
g. Control of medical decisions was taken from the Hershbergers which proves that we have no rights.
There is not much reliable information about crimes that involved medical records, but they could be true also.
#304 ann posted among other trash: “Hater. But tell me. How old does the mother have to be to confer citizenship, in your loony reading of the matter?”.
.
The law at the time when the eighteen year old gave birth to the person that we currently know as soetoro/bounel/obama that applies if the birther scam that soetoro/bounel/obama is running is wrong about where his was born:
“When one parent was a U.S. citizen and the other a foreign national, the U.S. citizen parent must have resided in the U.S. for a total of 10 years prior to birth of the child with five of the years after the age of 14.”.
.
Do the math.
.
The U.K. did not have that problem so he was a CUKC until Kenya split from Great Britain and the CUKC converted to Kenyan. If born in the U.S.A. or Canada, then he would have been a dual-citizen, as in not full U.S. allegiance to the U.S. Constitution so not born a natural. All was before the Indonesian adoption or allowing his Indonesian citizenship to lapse.
I’m not going to deal with your florid insanity, buttmunch. If President Obama’s mother had been a naturalized citizen, and he had been born outside the United States, that might apply. Since neither one of those is true, it doesn’t.
I’m just going to point and laugh at you for continuing to use the word “allopathic” without the first fu¢king idea of what it’s supposed to mean. Admittedly, it’s not a standard English word and is used only by Homeopaths, but I know what it means—why don’t you?
And if you’re going to quote somebody, why the hell can’t you use blockquote, you ignoramus?
<blockquote>Quoted text here</blockquote>
Dibs on the word ‘lobotarian’.
#287 Mephistopheles O’Brien posted a link to a fifty page document trying to confuse the issue of soetoro/bounel/obama eligibility for the Office of President for the former U.S.A. The document of course provided no proof, just attempts to justify ignoring the former Constitution for the former U.S.A.
The facts override the failed attempt at confusion.
1. The “natural born” requirement was like much of the Constitution that defined the U.S.A. was taken directly from the “Law of Nations” which defines a “natural born” as someone that was born when both parents were citizens and was born on the native soil.
The first U.S. Congress session that had many delegates that helped write the Constitution to define the former U.S.A. changed the definition of “natural born” to drop the geographical location requirement with the 1790 immigration act. There have been no more changes.
One of the links that discredit Jack Maskell for helping soetoro/bounel/obama against the rule of law and the former Constition that defined the former U.S.A.:
http://bobmccarty.com/2010/11/25/understanding-the-jack-maskell-memorandum/
P.S. Sorry I missed you earlier. Perhaps the smoke that many people are blowing, got into my eyes.
All this “blowing smoke” as a universal placeholder is giving me “chasing a squirrel up a tree” flashbacks.
Jesus Christ, you don’t even understand the case. There were two appeals, and a total of four separate justices told Lohn (who was retired and filling in) that his decisions were incompetent, kanshiketsu.
I see that you still haven’t read Prince v. Massachusetts. Let’s skip over the Schaibles and have you answer a straightforward question:
If parents believe that disease is a manifestation of “willfulness” and decide that the “treatment” is beatings until the child is either “cured” or dead, would the state stipping in “prove that we have no rights”?
Very simple, just like you. Get cracking.
^ “stepping in”
False.
False.
False.
Not even wrong.
Did somitcw actually just exonerate asbestos as a cause of mesothelioma? That it’s really the SV40? He should probably tell that to all the trial lawyers advertising on TV, then.
It turns out that Maurice’s motion for reconsideration by the Ohio supreme court failed on April 25. And his mail is being returned or something.
BTW, we’ve been through this rigamarole already with “Broccoli.”
#323 Narad posted among other things, “I see that you still haven’t read Prince v. Massachusetts.”.
.
While it is sad that five of nine judges passed a lower law that can prevent parents from teaching their children how to work with parents using such a dangerous job as passing out literature, what does that have to do with the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger and her family. Both prove that we lost our rights but the courts were also allowing internment of citizens of Japanese, German, and Italian descent at the same time.
A list of hundreds of other crimes that were or are being committed does not justify any of the ones committed against the Hershbergers.
Parents like the Hershbergers doing all they can to help their daughter have a greater concern for her than the concern that money hungry allopaths using unproven experimental chemical against customer Sarah Hershberger have.
If I go to a TV store to purchase a TV for a child but the sales droid insists that I buy the TV that has 3-D glasses that could harm the child’s eyes but that he and the store make the most profit on, I should be free to refuse to buy product and take my business elsewhere without the Child “Protective” “Services” or some court’s permission.
Same with the allopaths. The allopaths were harming Sarah Hershberger. She has a good chance of being sterile now. The parents properly chose to seek safer and more effective treatment.
My rule: Parents practically own their children when helping them. Parents are required to nurture them and to teach them discipline, honesty, and integrity. Parents are not allowed to try to harm their children. Harm can include selling them into slavery, amputating healthy body parts, non-therapeutic allopathic treatments, harmful allopathic therapeutic treatments like allopaths secretly signing Sarah Hershberger up for an unproven experimental chemical study.
Boring troll is boring.
SOMITCW!!!! WHY. Do. You. Keep. Using. This. Word. “Allopath”. When. You. Have. NO!!!! IDEA!!!! What. It. Means?
It has to do with concept of parens patriae, fυckstick, which shіts all over your slobbering “we have no rights” “timeline.”
You apparently fail to understand what you’re trying to reply to. If parent believe that beatings cure disease, they’re trying to help. Substitute starvation if you wish, which is fully in line with the “health” practices of “Natural Hygiene.”
Which didn’t fυcking happen, no matter how many how many times you fish it up.
“no matter how many how many times you fish it up.”
Exactly why he is a boring troll, since he is just repeating the same nonsense.
By the way, here’s the list of relevant trials with Akron as a location. Where are the “unproven experimental chemicals,” skidmark?
OK, I suppose Italian citizens are indeed of Italian descent.
Am I to understand from #241 that as well as poor, ill informed black people, most Jewish people also have there willies cut off? Because I’m starting to think America isn’t the safest place for a bloke to visit.
@Number – beware the roving games of circumcizers…..
One might suspect that characterizing circumcision as losing “most of [one’s] genitals” reveals a bit more than somitcw intended to.
Is that anything like Parkour?
#336 herr doktor bimler posted, “the courts were also allowing internment of citizens of Japanese, German, and Italian descent at the same time
OK, I suppose Italian citizens are indeed of Italian descent.”.
.
Many current Italian citizens are indeed of Italian descent, but not all.
As you already knew, the internment included U.S. citizens of Japanese, German, and Italian descent.
I broke it into three posts because posting was failing.
#333 Narad posting third part, “Harm can include… allopaths secretly signing Sarah Hershberger up for an unproven experimental chemical study.
Which didn’t fυcking happen, no matter how many how many times you fish it up.”.
.
What crimes against Sarah Hershberger are you talking about? Did anyone explain to you that main stream media is required to bend everything in the government control and the allpathic control directions? You should look for more reputable sites.
I will post another site:
.
http://dprogram.net/2013/11/02/recovered-amish-girl-will-physically-fight-if-forced-back-on-chemo/
“Recovered Amish Girl will “Physically Fight” if Forced Back on Chemo”
“…secretly enrolled in a medical research experiment and were testing new drugs on her. Losing her from the experiment meant a significant loss in funding to the tune of $1,000,000 if Sarah is not treated the full 110 weeks.”
.
Searching on:
Sarah Hershberger experiment
Will find many web sites like the one I posted in #154.
.
It was only about the allopaths wanting the almighty U.S. dollar and committing any crime against customers needed to get the almighty U.S. dollar.
Too bad they didn’t know that the Congress of the former U.S.A. set 2014-07-01 as the start of the dollar’s fall. Not like what has been happening with Fed thievery for a hundred years, but something bigger.
I broke it into three posts because posting was failing.
#333 Narad posting second part, “My rule: Parents practically own their children when helping them…. Parents are not allowed to try to harm their children.
You apparently fail to understand what you’re trying to reply to. If parent believe that beatings cure disease, they’re trying to help. Substitute starvation if you wish, which is fully in line with the “health” practices of “Natural Hygiene.””.
.
The only child abuse involved was from the allopaths and the courts.
Whatever the fυck the giant teratoma attached to your neckstalk “thinks” that means.
It didn’t have a fυcking thing to do with “teaching children how to work with parents”:
“Mrs. Prince, living in Brockton, is the mother of two young sons. She also has legal custody of Betty Simmons, who lives with them. The children, too, are Jehovah’s Witnesses, and both Mrs. Prince and Betty testified they were ordained ministers. The former was accustomed to go each week on the streets of Brockton to distribute ‘Watchtower’ and ‘Consolation,’ according to the usual plan. She had permitted the children to engage in this activity previously, and had been warned against doing so by the school attendance officer, Mr. Perkins. But, until December 18, 1941, she generally did not take them with her at night.
“That evening, as Mrs. Prince was preparing to leave her home, the children asked to go. She at first refused. Child-like, they resorted to tears; and, mother-like, she yielded. Arriving downtown, Mrs. Prince permitted the children ‘to engage in the preaching work with her upon the sidewalks.’ That is, with specific reference to Betty, she and Mrs. Prince took positions about twenty feet apart near a street intersection. Betty held up in her hand, for passers-by to see, copies of ‘Watch Tower’ and ‘Consolation.’ From her shoulder hung the usual canvas magazine bag, on which was printed: ‘Watchtower and Consolation 5¢ per copy.’ No one accepted a copy from Betty that evening, and she received no money. Nor did her aunt. But on other occasions, Betty had received funds and given out copies.
“Mrs. Prince and Betty remained until 8:45 p.m. A few minutes before this, Mr. Perkins approached Mrs. Prince. A discussion ensued. He inquired, and she refused to give Betty’s name. However, she stated the child attended the Shaw School. Mr. Perkins referred to his previous warnings, and said he would allow five minutes for them to get off the street. Mrs. Prince admitted she supplied Betty with the magazines, and said,
“However, Mrs. Prince and Betty departed. She remarked as she went, ‘I’m not going through this any more. We’ve been through it time and time again. I’m going home and put the little girl to bed.’ It may be added that testimony, by Betty, her aunt, and others was offered at the trials, and was excluded, to show that Betty believed it was her religious duty to perform this work, and failure would bring condemnation ‘to everlasting destruction at Armageddon.’“
^ By the way, that puts you in a high fυcking torque nutvise when it comes to circumcision.
I broke it into three posts because posting was failing.
#333 Narad posting start, “While it is sad that five of nine judges passed a lower law that can prevent parents from teaching their children how to work with parents using such a dangerous job as passing out literature, what does that have to do with the crimes committed against Sarah Hershberger and her family.
It has to do with concept of parens patriae, “… a couple of vulgarities that might be why my postings arn’t accepted?…”all over your slobbering “we have no rights” “timeline.””.
.
Had you not cut my timeline, you would see that it matches perfectly.
And allow me to short-circuit any attempt on your part to again idiotically hold yourself out as some sort of arbiter of “harm”: The Hershbergers’ appeal explicitly resorted to the proposition that as long as they had custody, they were entitled to withhold life-preserving treatment, and directly stated that chemotherapy was life-preserving treatment.
The whole argument was based on Ohio precedent stating that a medical guardian cannot mandate removal of life support from a brain-dead patient unless parental rights have been terminated.
#344 Narad posted among other things, “While it is sad that five of nine judges passed a lower law
Whatever the fυck the giant teratoma attached to your neckstalk “thinks” that means.
that can prevent parents from teaching their children how to work with parents using such a dangerous job as passing out literature
It didn’t have a fυcking thing to do with “teaching children how to work with parents”:”.
.
Mother stated that it was her work. The child did the work.
If I had a family business and had what they called “legal custody of a nine year old” child, you had better believe that I would do my duty by introducing the child to working at the family business years before that child became nine. It wouldn’t matter if the business was religious or not.
#347 Narad posted, “And allow me to short-circuit any attempt on your part to again idiotically hold yourself out as some sort of arbiter of “harm”: The Hershbergers’ appeal explicitly resorted to the proposition that as long as they had custody, they were entitled to withhold life-preserving treatment, and directly stated that chemotherapy was life-preserving treatment.
The whole argument was based on Ohio precedent stating that a medical guardian cannot mandate removal of life support from a brain-dead patient unless parental rights have been terminated.”.
.
Unproven experimental chemicals that have never cured one case of cancer in the history of mankind has not been proven to be “life-preserving treatment”.
We are also not 100 percent certain that it sterilized Sarah Hershberger.
.
The family was fully competent to make proper medical decisions. The allopaths trying to save their U.S. dollar 1,000,000 income lost competency because of greed. Actually, they lost competency when they decided that the almighty U.S. dollar was more important than the health of their customers.
I really do need to get some popcorn. This is getting good. 😉
“Cut”? It doesn’t matter. If 1944 “matches perfectly,” then you’re fυcked again, because it didn’t start there. The first juvenile court was established in 1899. Before that, what you’re complaining about was worse (e.g., Ex parte Crouse, 4 Whart. 9 (Pa. 1839)).
I’m afraid I have somewhat more pressing things to do tonight than play Miles Cowperthwaite.
somitcw, labile and that chemist with the radar fixation…is the moon full?
Speaking of which.
What about the effectiveness of your “safer and more effective traditional medical treatment”?
It hasn’t been proved either. Which slightly undermine your argument.
Actually, medical history seems to indicate that “traditional” treatments are not very helpful.
If it was, Anne d’Autriche would have jumped on it for treating her breast cancer, instead of going for surgery without anesthesia.
Well, maybe the FDA was already controlling France’s medicine and media in the 17th century.
Where? You have the entire list of possible clinical trials.
You lose again.
Tell it to the Hershbergers, shіthead, because it’s their argument.
“We”? “100 percent”? What do you think the mechanism of fertility problems is? What makes you think they’re in play? What do you think the comparative risk would be when treating a recurrence? Go plug it into FυckFυckGo.com and get back to me.
They didn’t seek any medical care at all. The tumor that was affecting her ability to breathe was rather promptly noticed when the parents brought her in for a toothache. They have eighth-grade educations. Granted, they’re obviously more intelligent than you are, but that does not make them competent.
U.S. medical doctors don’t make million-dollar salaries, asshat, and treatment under the guardianship was at no cost to the family. Do you think Mexican quack clinics are charities?
@ Narad
I am not 100 percent certain that somitcw’s definition of “sterilization” is consistent from hour to hour. He seems to be quite liberal in its use.
Whatever it means for him, he seems persuaded that doctors are out to sterilize everything in sight, from men to women to cancer cells to hemp oil (how do you sterilize vegetable oil anyway? Making sure it doesn’t contain any nuts?).
Maybe he met a doctor next to an autoclave and misunderstood the purpose of this sterilization apparatus…
And she were, what would that mean? She should be forced to die a horrible death if the alternative is to allow her to live like a human being who happens not to be able to have children? Better dead than sterile? Women are nothing but incubators so a sterile woman is a waste of carbon?
I just want to be sure I understand somitcw’s point here.
Not sure that it is possible to understand somitcw’s point. Where the hell did this 1940s thing materialize from? Some kind of legal precedent for ‘authority’ overriding a parents role? Now I have to re-read all the wahgarble to find out. Life is too short.
I’m just going to telescope the history of the bonehead’s imaginary parental-rights routine.
In Ex parte Crouse (1838), the Pennsylvania supreme court explicitly stated that the Bill of Rights did not apply to minors, rejecting a claim by Mary Ann Crouse’s father that she had been illegally incarcerated. It was explicitly predicated on the notion that the state had the right to intervene if it felt like the parents were insufficiently competent.
Later, the Illinois supreme court came around to the notion that “we should not forget the rights which inhere both in parents and children…. [t]he parent has the right to the care, custody, and assistance of his child.” People v. Turner, 55 Ill. 280 (1870). Nobody paid much attention.
Directly on point, we come to People v. Pierson, 176 N.Y. 201, 68 N.E. 243 (1903), a faith-healing case. Pierson’s attorney – arguing that there was no parental duty to “furnish medical attendance” – explicitly invoked Turner, interestingly continuing with this:
“Not until medicine approaches far nearer to the position of an exact science, not until its theories and doctrines emerge at least from the chaotic state, can men be forced by legislative enactment to employ the services of a physician for themselves or for those who are dependent upon them.”
Turner lost.
What the halfwit (speaking generously) fails to realize here is that the “right” he believes was “taken away” didn’t even really exist until Meyer v. Nebraska, 262 U.S. 390 (1923) (prohibiting teaching of foreign languages) and Pierce v. Society of Sisters, 268 U.S. 510 (1925) (mandating public school attendance). See, e.g., Barbara Bennett Woodhouse, “Who Owns the Child?”: Meyer and Pierce and the Child as Property, 33 Wm. & Mary L. Rev. 995 (1992).
That’s it in a nutshell. All Prince did was add another explicit statement of the obvious fact that what was created in the 1920s was not unlimited.
^ “
TurnerPierson lost.”Victory for Sarah Hershberger.
One year ago, allopaths told the Hershbergers that Sarah would be dead within a year if the Hershbergers did not allow the allopaths to continue chemo treatments. The supposed chemo treatments were actually harsh experimental chemicals for a secret study that the allopaths would collect one million U.S. dollars for keeping Sarah Hershberger in, but the Hershbergers were not told that.
Sarah Hershberger is now one of the children that allopaths tried to force treatment on for cancer but escaped to instead used traditional medicine so they could live. Sarah Hershberger had a type of cancer that may have been caused by non-therapeutic injected form of vitamin k at birth.
Even with our sick allopathic “medicine” and crooked courts in the U.S.A., a few people are able to slip through the cracks and live.
Giving the then ten-year-old either harsh experimental or real chemo may have caused sterilization and impacted growth so all should pray that damage caused by allopathic “medicine” was less than expected.
Wow – back again to repeat the same old already debunked crap?
@somitcw,
You have failed to indicate whether your touching concern for Sarah’s fertility is due to the fact that you regard a sterile woman as a waste of carbon who is better dead than cluttering up the world for worthwhile people like yourself.
I have some questions about your most recent comment:
Source? Any reputable news report will do.
Source? One million U.S. dollars is a very specific sum of money. Where did that precise number come from? Again, any reputable news report will do.
Source? You surely have some source from the medical literature indicating that vitamin K causes cancer.
Please provide sources for these allegations. Otherwise I am forced to assume that they are mere fantasies of a disordered imagination.
#363 LW blew smoke by posting among other things, “You have failed to indicate whether your touching concern for Sarah’s fertility is due to the fact that you regard a sterile woman as a waste of carbon who is better dead than cluttering up the world for worthwhile people like yourself.”.
.
How about you force sterilize several or all members of your family and then everyone else can decide if it was because your family was a waste of carbon or if there were other motives?
.
#363 LW blew smoke by posting among other things, “I have some questions about your most recent comment:”.
.
You continue to ignore links that I provided so why don’t you find whatever sites that you will believe? Try to ask someone to teach you how to use a web search engine or to do your searches for you.
Then search for things like:
Sarah Hershberger experimental
vitamin k cancer
.
Also, do you really believe that the allopaths told her that she would live hundreds of years without treatment? Do you really believe that the allopaths told the Hershbergers that experimental chemicals were substituted for chemo? Do you really believe that the allopaths were forcing the experimental chemicals for free? Do you really believe that any non-therapeutic injections either have a benefit or that they cause no harm?
Properly done web searches may find information that is more accurate than guesses.
The first case wasn’t even filed until August 5, 2013.
It’s possible that when Sarah was first diagnosed the oncologists said she would be dead within a year if she didn’t undergo chemotherapy at all. However, she did undergo induction chemotherapy and one or two cycles of consolidation chemotherapy before further chemotherapy was refused.
Oh, wait, the interim Medina courts interface sucks. That was the appeal. Hang on.
And the Court of Common Pleas search page is completely broken. It was case 2013-07-GM-00029, so it was filed in July.
Let’s review:
So: (1) Yes, somitcw is a month premature. (2) We don’t know what Sarah’s condition is, likely because there was a probate order regarding media coverage a couple of months ago.
Wahgarble is too kind. One hundred years???????……?
You may recall that you were offered the opportunity to substantiate this right before you ran away the last time.
Now, what was that you said?
Snap to, Slothrop.
Sorry, hundreds of years! Wuh?
Of malignant cells, yes. Now, as LW noted, you seem to have fascinating, detailed insight into the “secret study,” such as the specific amount of blood money. It stands to reason that you should also know the identities of the “harsh experimental chemicals.”
Therefore, you should be able to specify the concomitant risk of sterility.
I took your advice. And this is what I learned:
There are a bunch of irresponsible websites out there mischaracterizing the treatment as “experimental” because it was part of a clinical trial.
However, to quote the American Childhood Cancer Organization:
(Emphasis added. Link:
https://acco.org/Information/TreatmentandSurvivorship/ClinicalTrials.aspx)
So. Phase III clinical trials are standard-of-care, not experimental. And it seems virtually certain that Sarah Hershberger was in a Phase III clinical trial. Because as you can see at this link here…
http://www.cancer.gov/clinicaltrials/search/results?protocolsearchid=12789510
…that’s what all the clinical trials that entail treatment for the kind and subtype of cancer she has that are being done at Akron Children’s Hospital are!
I look forward to your gracious acknowledgment of my having blown away the smoke you evidently picked up elsewhere.
It was getting in your eyes.
I’ll do “vitamin k cancer” later.
I’ve got a Bicentennial quarter that says it’s a de novo mutation.
somitcw still hasn’t answered my question. I continue to think that its fixation on Sarah Hershberger’s fertility is due to its belief that a sterile woman is a waste of carbon, so life-saving treatment with a possible side effect of sterility (not actually shown to be the case here of course) should be denied to a little girl. Better that she should die than that she should survive but be sterile, in somitcw’s world.
It’s a second-order filtering process. It took media focus on the appeal to produce the crude material.
@LW —
You could be right. But there’s more than one kind of quasi-voyeuristic, counterphobic prurient-yet-puritanical fixation it could be.
For example: The prospect of her sterility might signify a eugenicist gubmint plot, which obscurely elicited thoughts of the robust assertions of potency that would be necessary to combat it. Or something of that nature.
The source of the attraction-repulsion might be kinda submerged, IOW. You know. Return of the repressed. Like that.
In that article: “During chemotherapy, the girl’s tumors shrank, but she did not enter remission.”
That doesn’t bode well for her at all, I think.
#365 Narad posted more smoke, “One year ago, allopaths told the Hershbergers that Sarah would be dead within a year if the Hershbergers did not allow the allopaths to continue chemo treatments.
The first case wasn’t even filed until August 5, 2013.”.
.
What does “case” have to do with “allopaths told the Hershbergers”?
Tell me that you aren’t going silly. Lie if you need to.
#366 Orac posted, “It’s possible that when Sarah was first diagnosed the oncologists said she would be dead within a year if she didn’t undergo chemotherapy at all. However, she did undergo induction chemotherapy and one or two cycles of consolidation chemotherapy before further chemotherapy was refused.”.
.
While your guess might be correct, it is not what multiple news reports say.
Before the first experimental assault, the Hershbergers were told that without the initial treatment, she would die within two weeks.
When the Hershbergers suggested adding traditional medicine which would have messed up the experimental study, they were told that Sarah would die within one year.
A couple of months later, “If S.H. is not treated or if she is treated other than by chemotherapy, Dr. Bodas testified S.H. has no chance to survive her illness. S.H. will die in six months to a year. He testified a delay or interruption of her chemotherapy treatment increases the chances she will not survive her cancer if the treatment is resumed. He said S.H.’s cancer is growing and becoming more resistant to treatment.”.
All were allopathic lies just like the lies about her getting standard chemo would give with the various 85 percent, 80 percent, and 90 percent for living a few years after the over two years of treatment, ignoring that the Hershbergers were being lied to and Sarah Hershberger was secretly enrolled in a study, not standard chemo for the various percentages.
But in direct contradiction, Sarah Hershberger is alive just like all of the children that escape forced cancer treatment and switch to traditional medicine. A factual one hundred percent is better than a guessed at random number percent.
Since my posts are being delayed, I will assume that this one will not get through and will stop trying for now.
At least, I was allowed to proclaim Sarah Hershberger’s living victory over allopaths and a crooked court.
The question remains whether somitcw will similarly make a point of loudly stinking up the joint should worse come to worst.
Well. Taking somitcw’s guidance literally and searching for “vitamin k cancer” just results in a bunch of sites — including the American Cancer Society and Mercola in the top three — that trumpet the curative and/or preventative properties of vitamin k in connection with (primarily) liver and prostate cancer, but also leukemia.
So I added the word “birth” to the search terms. And here’s what I learned!!!
There’s a 1992 British study that purported to show an association between Vitamin K injections at birth and a hugely increased rate of childhood cancer, particularly lymphoblastic leukemia.
And anti-vax sites just love that study so very much that they continue to cleave to it and shun all others, lo these 23 years later, which is almost an entire generation.
Admirable as this loyalty may be, it is — in this case — misguided. There have been a raftload of follow-up studies (by which I mean “more than ten”) that either show no correlation or possibly a very weak correlation that can’t really be ruled in or ruled out.
It appears to depend on whether the study was using place-and-hospital matched controls. When they do, there’s no difference in childhood cancer rates between infants who received Vitamin K at birth and those who didn’t.
So there’s some reason to think that there’s an environmental trigger in the picture.
And there might once have been a very, very slight reason to continue to include Vitamin K injections at birth on the list of candidates for that.
But if you’re a person who didn’t stop being open to life’s infinite possibilities 23 years ago, that probably would have dwindled to a tiny little point in 1999, when Wiemels et al published “Prenatal origins of lymphoblastic leukemia in children.”
(As the title suggests, they found “an acute lymphocytic leukemia-associated gene in 12 children with newly diagnosed acute lymphocytic leukemia and postulated that an in utero chromosomal translocation event combined with a postnatal promotional event results in clinical leukemia.”
So it’s possible that the postnatal promotional event is Vitamin K at birth. But it’s not particularly more likely than any number of other things. And whatever the case, the cause — to use the language of somitcw’s claim — appears to be a de novo mutation.
Narad wins.)
.
It’s amazing how somitcw only saw that one response @365, rather than any of the more fully fleshed out ones that followed it.
Isn’t it.
“If S.H. is not treated or if she is treated other than by chemotherapy, Dr. Bodas testified S.H. has no chance to survive her illness. S.H. will die in six months to a year.” (emphasis added)
Which means that, contrary to somitcw’s claims, Dr. Bodas said that after the lawsuit started, i.e., no earlier than August 5, 2013.
OK.
Holy Fυck!
Really?
Oh, how humiliating.
As far as I can tell, there are only two studies that claim a possible association on ^^that, both of which used small samples and inadequate controls — one (the 1992 thing I mentioned above) to the extent that it’s since been effectively rebutted; and one (from 1998) that potentially shows a weak association between Vitamin K at birth and lymphoblasic leukemia diagnosed between the ages of one and six, which has since been further weakened by numerous subsequent studies.
So basically, somitcw’s assertion that Sarah Hershberger’s cancer may have been caused by Vitamin K is based on one study that didn’t even show weak signs of an elevated risk of leukemia in children her age.
Or, put another way: It’s based on nothing at all, apart from rumors made up by strangers on the internet.
That’s to say nothing of the “non-therapeutic” part of the allegation. I have no idea what the argument there is supposed to be.
(Babies have enough Vitamin K? Can be given enough Vitamin K via non-therapeutic routes of administration? If the good lord didn’t want babies to bleed to death in early infancy, he’d send his angels to protect them?
There’s no evidence for any of those, and what evidence there is for the first two universally favors the opposite conclusion. So some elaboration appears to be called for.)
@ ann
I think somitcw is simply adhering to the “Si non confectus, non reficiat” school of thought. It is consistently ignoring the advantages of any preventative medicine. If you are not bedridden, you don’t need anything.
Unless it’s its complicated way of saying that a medical procedure has no benefit, i.e. is not working.
Of course, one could rightfully ask, as you did, how giving vitamin K to babies with a lack of vitamin K could be seen as either not needed or not working.
@ann, Helianthus:
I can’t help but think that for a certain type of alties, using preventative medicine is a sign of inferiority or laziness. If you have need for vaccines, vit K injections, etc., you must be genetically unfit or have a bad lifestyle and hence you don’t deserve to enjoy health. Basically, a blame-the-victim, borderline eugenistic mentality.
NumberWang:
Yes, I think that was a case of moving the goalposts not just down the field, but outside the stadium entirely. I suppose he thought he was being funny with that hyperbole.
My last three posts were finally approved so to add to the discussing:
#388 Helianthus posted among other things, “Of course, one could rightfully ask, as you did, how giving vitamin K to babies with a lack of vitamin K could be seen as either not needed or not working.”.
.
No one doubts that a human baby from 2 days old to 6 days old does not have as much vitamin k as a normal adult.
That is normal and has been normal for as long as there have been human babies. Fish evolved a half of billion years ago and they use vitamin k. So do amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals. The gap in human babies is because vitamin k depletes in about two days and the babies intestinal bacteria does not create vitamin k until about the baby’s sixth day. It has been happening for at least several thousand years and caused the Jewish traditional tiny clip of a tiny bit of an infant’s foreskin to be delayed until the eight day. Of course the full foreskin with the sexual ribs and 20,000 of the 28,000 sexual nerves is now amputated to not protect the stub left that dries until cialis is needed.
.
The baby had vitamin k during gestation or several of their organs would not develop. The baby has vitamin k at birth and to repeat from earlier posts, the newborn will have the full amount of vitamin k that the newborn needs which is the highest amount the newborn will have for about a week.
Adding synthetic vitamin k and two other dangerous chemicals on top of full natural vitamin k makes no sense.
.
Exception: Allopaths filling a mother with dope before birth can destroy all of her vitamin k. The last bit of vitamin k will go to the unborn child but if there is none, then there is none to go.
.
If there was a reason to add vitamin k, it would make more sense to use oral vitamin k with unknown dangers than injected vitamin k with studies showing one of its dangers.
Of course you can believe the cover-up studies that say that there is no significant different and explain to the one in one thousand that get a vitamin k induced cancer that they are not significant or the studies that say that so much cancer is caused by infant formula that infant formula cancer obscure vitamin k cancer rates.
.
P.S. I do not believe that Sarah Hershberger’s cancer came from non-therapeutic smallpox vaccine or SV40 non-therapeutic polio vaccine because they caused different types of cancer than the cancer that she had last year. She is also too young to have had those allopathic assaults.
I don’t believe that Sarah had cancer from baby formula because most Amish are more intelligent to use infant formula unless absolutely necessary.
Injected non-therapeutic synthetic vitamin k with two other dangerous chemicals injection looks like a good fit.
Natural cancer is possible but the rates of modern juvenile cancer dwarfs any type of natural cancer.
somitcw,
I’m curious to know which children with Stage III leukemia have survived after ‘traditional medicine’ alone. If ‘traditional medicine’ is so effective there must be many examples, but I can’t find a single one.
Finding people who have survived leukemia and other cancers thanks to conventional treatment is easy: here, for example. Where are the ‘traditional medicine’ survivors?
So, why do you believe that ‘traditional medicine’ is 100% effective at treating cancer? Where is the evidence for this “factual one hundred percent “?
Are you simply inventing this to try to dissuade people from allowing their children to have proven life-saving treatment?
“Traditional” here is evidently a term of art, having nothing to do with any long-established ethnological folkway, but instead referring to the state-of-the-art cutting-edge quackery to which the Hershbergers subjected their daughter (“high doses of vitamin C and B17, oxygen therapy, detoxification methods, as well as the IV chelation”). Techniques, that is, which leave Somitcw free to make up claims about a 100% cure rate, unencumbered by any records.