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The CDC whistleblower William W. Thompson: One last word

I know that when last I commented, I expressed the desire to move on from the topic of the CDC whistleblower case after having covered it for a week. And so was my intent. However, this being a holiday in the US and my having had an odd experience on Friday led me to think that one last update is in order. Those not familiar with the story can recap here:


Over the weekend, there have been a lot of attacks directed at those who have made critical comments about Brian Hooker and his conspiracy theory, or who have, quite reasonably, pointed out that the statement of the “CDC whistleblower,” senior CDC scientist William W. Thompson, does not demonstrate that the CDC engaged in a “massive coverup” of evidence showing that MMR vaccination is associated with autism in African American males. These days, the attacks are coming in the form of a potentially libelous CNN iReport regurgitating Jake Crosby’s unfounded charges, and, of course, Twitter attacks galore:

This all sounds rather…threatening. One wonders if Ms. McClelland thinks it’s wise to post such Tweets.

There was a time when such vilification would have bothered me, but I’m used to it now. Indeed, I wear it as a badge of honor. They don’t have anything else, and the intensity of the vitriol directed at me is proportional to my effectiveness in dismantling antivaccine claims.

Of course, the biggest unknown in this entire misbegotten saga is William W. Thompson, the “CDC whistleblower.” Over the last week and a half, I’ve wanted to ask him time and time again, “What on earth were you thinking?” Thompson now writes in his statement that he is willing to collaborate with “unbiased and objective scientists” to reanalyze vaccine safety datasets. That’s great. But, if that’s the case, why on earth did he ever contact Brian Hooker? Oddly enough, there are some Tweets that ask the key questions about Thompson’s motivations that echoed my own questions:

Excellent questions. At first, I thought we were left with two potential explanations. One was that Thompson had gone antivaccine. I don’t think he has, but some selected quotes publicized in which he criticized recommending the thimerosal-containing version of the flu vaccine for pregnant women, stating that it causes tics in children and tics are “autism-like.” So, although I don’t think he’s gone antivaccine (yet), he’s clearly imbibed at least some of that world view from Hooker. The other possibility was that Thompson had an unresolved scientific disagreement with his co-authors, a “beef,” if you will, that he is now resolving. But if that were the case, then surely there must have been better ways to resolve that than cozying up to an antivaccinationist who has been trying to get first Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) and then Rep. Bill Posey (R-FL) to hold hearings looking into a vaccine-autism link.

Friday, I was made aware of a possible third reason.

Based on some of my previous posts over at the not-so-secret other blog, I was unexpectedly contacted by Rick Morgan, William Thompson’s lawyer, who wanted to speak with me. So I gave him my number, and he called me on Friday. It was a brief, but very strange conversation. Morgan didn’t tell me much, but I didn’t expect him to, although he stated that he understood that I thought Thompson either had a beef with his co-investigators or had gone off the deep end. However, he wanted to “plant a seed” that maybe—just maybe—there might be another explanation, that this had been torturing Thompson all these years and he just had to do something because he couldn’t take it any more.

And maybe that is true. I have no way of knowing. I do know that, whatever his motivation, Thompson had done horrible damage and almost certainly endangered African American children to suffer from measles who might not have contracted it otherwise.

Assuming that what Mr. Morgan told me in that brief, cryptic conversation is true, it just goes to show how a guilty conscience, whether justified or not, can drive a man to do some really stupid things. Make no mistake, there is no doubt that what Thompson did was either incredibly naive and/or stupid. Maybe his conscience was torturing him for a decade. Again, who knows?

That thought led me to another thought, though. The central conspiracy theory of the antivaccine movement states that scientists and bureaucrats at the CDC are involved in a massive coverup of The Truth, undeniable scientific evidence that vaccines cause autism, all done in the service of big pharma. Now think about Thompson again. If what Morgan says is true, then Thompson’s conscience has been torturing him over a relatively scientific disagreement in which he didn’t really believe, based on the data presented in DeStefano et al, that there was a true correlation between MMR vaccination and autism, but he did believe that further studies should be done. Now his conscience has led him to ruin his scientific career and reputation over just that.

Now imagine if there had been a real conspiracy to suppress compelling evidence indicating that vaccines cause autism. In that case, there wouldn’t just be a single man torturing himself over decisions made, as Thompson, if we believe Morgan, apparently has. It would be men and women at every level of the CDC. If the CDC couldn’t “keep Thompson quiet” over this, if Thompson was willing to risk destroying his career over a small subgroup analysis with almost certainly spurious results that weren’t followed up on when he thought they should be, imagine what would happen if real data demonstrating a strong link between vaccines and autism had been covered up. There would be Bill Thompsons crawling out of the woodwork everywhere, beginning not long after the coverup began. To believe the CDC whistleblower conspiracy theory, you have to believe that virtually everyone at the CDC is either so ideologically blinded that they would have no trouble covering up a definite link between vaccines and autism or that they’re all so terrified that they stay silent.

Indeed, as a commenter this morning put it:

As for the three scientists discussed in the article, we all know full well that these men are NOT performing these experiments alone. There are people working under their direction with direct access to the data and ought to have seen this train wreck coming as well.

This is exactly the reason why, although I have little doubt that large organizations can cover up relatively minor issues, which is what Thompson’s insinuations amount to, they can’t for long cover up something huge, such as intentionally covering up a link between vaccines and autism. Ironically, the case of William Thompson is an excellent example of why such conspiracy theory beliefs are so incredibly implausible. Indeed, it reads like a bad movie script.

Worse for Thompson, even the tinfoil hat conspiracy contingent won’t be giving him much love any time soon. See, for instance, Ken Heckenlively’s post at the antivaccine crank blog Age of Autism this morning:

I really do want to thank Dr. Thompson for coming forward at this time, although it would have been much better if he’d done it earlier, when his conscience first troubled him. I think of the good scientists, like Dr. Andrew Wakefield, Dr. Brian Hooker, or my co-author, Dr. Judy Mikovits, who held firm to their principles. Wakefield has often said that the MMR controversy has cost him, “His job, his career, and his country.” Dr. Mikovits has endured a similar level of torment as have other honest scientists who have presented inconvenient findings. For me, that is the definition of scientific courage. Scientists like Wakefield, Hooker, and Mikovits would NEVER dream of concealing data. For them, that would be the equivalent of a crime against humanity.

Of course, this statement shows such a breathtaking lack of awareness that it’s hard not to guffaw out loud. After all, Andrew Wakefield almost certainly committed gross scientific fraud far worse than even the most uncharitable interpretation of Thompson’s insinuations of fraud could ever support, and Brian Hooker tortured data in a manner most foul until it “confessed.” If you don’t believe me, take a gander at Hooker’s talk in front of a cancer quackery conference in which he brags at around 17:00 how “simple” the technique he used was and how “simplicity is elegance” in statistics and how he likes to do “simple” things rather than intellectually challenging things. Any statistician will tell you is a load of fetid dingo’s kidneys. He also at around 27:30 basically admitted that he recorded Thompson’s conversations, but claims he did so legally. Finally, arguably, Mikovitz is a bigger fraud than Wakefield. Yet Heckenlively views them as “heroes” because they are on “his” side and support his pseudoscientific quack beliefs.

The bottom line is that the antivaccine movement is very much like a cult. They follow their heros and reject any information that disconfirms their beliefs. There is one good thing, though. Andrew Wakefield’s behavior in this whole sordid affair was so vile, his lies so obvious, that even one of his acolytes realized it. If that can happen with a true believer, maybe that true believer will eventually realize that the rest of the antivaccine world view is built on pseudoscience, quackery, and lies. And if one can come to that realization, maybe others can.

A guy can hope, can’t he?

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

821 replies on “The CDC whistleblower William W. Thompson: One last word”

Scientists like Wakefield, Hooker, and Mikovits would NEVER dream of concealing data. For them, that would be the equivalent of a crime against humanity.

Now I’ve hurt myself laughing. How could anyone possibly believe something so obviously untrue? Not for the first time I wonder about some people’s mental health. That’s seriously deluded. isn’t it?

Who is this devilishly handsome lad named “David Gorski” on Twitter? Is Orac an admirer of him?

Eventually following the conspiracy theory path, building more elaborate and multiple specious connections, leads to the conclusion that every one else must be in on the plot.

@Krebiozen: But Wakefield never concealed data…he just concealed conflicts of interest (his competing vaccine), the fact the “volunteers” in his study were recruited with an agenda, and that the information was uh…massaged….a bit to become clearer. CERTAINLY he never concealed data! Why, he even have it out for people to see how (un) real it was!

(Now I feel dirty and need to go shower. Just thinking of Wakeflied makes me feel slimy all over).

ORC writes “The bottom line is that the antivaccine movement is very much like a cult. They follow their heros and reject any information that disconfirms their beliefs.”

The Pro-Vaxers can also be characterized as a cult rejecting any information about the deleterious effects of vaccines.

Their scientism makes them blind, since scientism is the perversion of science that makes it a powerful Belief System (B.S.) just like a materialistic religion.

No matter how much evidence is presented, Pro-Vaxers remain immune to the reality that vaccines are part of a strategic global depopulation campaign and do nothing but cripple its victims with autism, tics and other horrific disabilities.

This is the corruption and perfidy of the pharmaceutical industry and those who defend it — and this is the pseudo-science hoodoo of the Pro-Vaxers that is being exposed day by day…

Don’t they teach the simple truths of Hippocrates, the Father of Medicine, in medical school who said “Let your food be your medicine”?

Or have they substituted this with the promotion of petrochemical meds — since the Greek word for sorcery is the word “pharmacopeia,” a word used to describe prescription drugs?

Shame on you so-called doctors and sorceror wannabes!

” a breathtaking lack of awareness” saith Orac.

I feel like that frequently as I peruse AoA,TMR, AI et al and I’ll venture – which will probably get me in trouble as it did when our friend, Mr D, said something similar years ago- that many of who write at these outlets have difficulty evaluating others and themselves- which we could possibly expect because ASD run in families** ( as well as exhibiting *de novo* expression). Parents are older and less likely to have been diagnosed although it is entirely possible to have problems with person perception, social cognition and related abilities- which may ( or may not) develop during adolescence and early adulthood- attributed to other psychological issues other than ASD.

We often see a stunning lack of self-evaluation when SBM or psychology is criticised by parents lacking even a basic background in these discipline: Hooker takes on the CDC; Dachel scolds liars in the media; web alt media magnates preach about crorruption in science and the sad state of higher education; Jake attrubtes malfeasance everywhere he looks.( continued- )

* similarly, people related to those with schizophrenia w/o a dx themselves have more cognitive problems than would be expected if they had no relatives with the SMI.

No matter how much evidence is presented, Pro-Vaxers remain immune to the reality that vaccines are part of a strategic global depopulation campaign and do nothing but cripple its victims with autism, tics and other horrific disabilities.

What is the world population today?  What was it a hundred years ago? Or even fifty?  This depopulation project doesn’t seem to be working so well. 

Tics are an “horrific disability”?  A coworker in our office has tics. You get used to it; you hardly notice it anymore after a very short time. It’s not like someone who was, say, deafened or blinded, or brain damaged — or dead — from vaccine-preventable disease. 

I’m not claiming to speak for others, but there are autistic people who read and comment here who probably don’t consider themselves to be afflicted with an “horrific disability”. 

Keep in mind if we’re going to toss around a “cult” tag, and wherever the science may take us on this, that we have parents and kids severely affected by ASD with no answer as to what happened, why it happened, and even worse, terrible access to health care resources.

We really don’t have a good correlation on all genetic predisposing factors leading someone into an inflammatory response and a potential brain injury. Even though a preponderance of evidence shows us a highly unlikely tie between autism and vaccines, we can’t say that there have been no vaccine injuries whatsoever. I don’t believe that any drug is 100% safe, to say that they are seems as short-sighted as the pseudo-science that keeps getting pumped out.

The study in question sucked, exhibited troubling bias, and was pulled; open peer review as it should be.

I wish we could move on, and look into ways to offer genetic predisposition to parents and health care providers so that they have better picture from which to make an informed decision about their kids.

Thank you for reading.

It’s possible that an adult can be unable to make reasonably accurate estimates of others’ motivations and personal values when they differ from their own.

Remember MacNeil’s screed against physicians? Or the hatred commonly directed against many SB sceptics? This may stem from a lack of ability evaluating others and a mis- understanding of how they function. Often a TM fancies herself profficient enough to criticise the current state of immunology or gastrolenterology without benefit of a degree. Would she attempt to diagnose her car if it stopped running? Probably not, but that is a more concrete situation- much easier to deal with and unlike the nearly abstract,- because they’re unknown to her- vagueries of physiological functioning.

A commenter referred to Jake as ‘bright’- I might agree if that quaility included only Q&V portions of standardised tests but USUALLY I define ability in social terms as well.
Three years ago I asked Jake whether he thought that an enormous conspiracy- involving thousands of participants in science, industry, governments and the media, worldwide- existed or was it simply a guy who fixed date. You can easily imagine his response. I asked if he thought that his beliefs about vaccines might affect his future occupational prospects.

Looking over the many posts and comments at the aforementioned websites, we can observe frequent mistaken attributions and mis-statements about others’ motivations as well as misguided self-evaluations. For example, most of us are characterised as ‘pharma shills’ without any evidence- which is a huge misjudgment about our actions and motives.

Of course, some may believe that I write as I have because I want to make fun of people- that’s partially true: I DO want to ridicule charlatans who profit off of their marks’ unhappiness and health problems BUT I feel truly sorry for parents who suffer because their children have serious conditions, including autism: their lives are not a walk in the park. They do need help in dealing with difficult living situation-s which is readily available.HOWEVER I doubt that they will find meaningful assistance in the facebook page/ Kaffeeklatsch group therapy ( gone wrong) on which they currently rely.

Even the self-aggrandising, self-appointed experts/ warriors/ writers behave so as an escape from an unbearable life situation fraught with helplessness, stress and fear as they guide others into taking the same path – a mighty wrong turn.

Pro-Vaxers remain immune to the reality that vaccines are part of a strategic global depopulation campaign

The chemtrails must have numbed our senses in some way.

MESSAGE BEGINS—————————————–

Good Day to you Shills and Minions,

One of you (who shall remain nameless) had sent a request to Orbital this morning that I only just received regarding this “BOB” thing. It was as follows:

“Your Worshipfulness, we have a new troll. He’s super cute. Can we keep him?

Trembling in Fear of Your Grim Visage,
NAME REDACTED”

Well, I can understand your delight at receiving such a gift as this. Before you start to play with it, however, please read this analysis from the ladies on Level 7 . . .

ORC (sic) writes “The bottom line is that the antivaccine movement is very much like a cult. They follow their heros and reject any information that disconfirms their beliefs.”

The Pro-Vaxers can also be characterized as a cult rejecting any information about the deleterious effects of vaccines.

Now, you see a dim awareness of our tactics forming in its tiny head. Will this lead to greater discovery or will it be distracted by a pencil or a pat of butter and forget all about The Great Subjugation of Terra™? Let’s see . . .

Their scientism makes them blind, since scientism is the perversion of science that makes it a powerful Belief System (B.S.) just like a materialistic religion.

No matter how much evidence is presented, Pro-Vaxers remain immune to the reality that vaccines are part of a strategic global depopulation campaign and do nothing but cripple its victims with autism, tics and other horrific disabilities.

Hmmmm, the pat of butter usually works. Maybe this one is smarter than I had suspected. It has clearly found some information on our planetary soporifics operation. Perhaps it looked up from its collection of pencils, buttons and twigs and saw our chemtrail operations in the sky above it. But, depopulation? Really? Why would we want to reduce the number of docile, compliant slave monkeys we have worked so hard to create? The outer rim colonies need labor! Still, caution is advised . . .

This is the corruption and perfidy of the pharmaceutical industry and those who defend it — and this is the pseudo-science hoodoo of the Pro-Vaxers that is being exposed day by day…

Don’t they teach the simple truths of Hippocrates, the Father of Medicine, in medical school who said “Let your food be your medicine”?

Intelligence points for use of “perfidy.” Not sure who this Hippo person is, but Achravaak of Glaxxon once said, “Let your enemies be your food.” Hmmmmm . . . another red flag.

Or have they substituted this with the promotion of petrochemical meds — since the Greek word for sorcery is the word “pharmacopeia,” a word used to describe prescription drugs?

Shame on you so-called doctors and sorceror (sic) wannabes

I don’t know about you, but “Fabulous” is the word I would use to describe prescription drugs. What a silly little creature this is. Alright. You may keep it since, in the end, it seems harmless enough. But don’t forget to feed it regularly and apply MonkeyMist™ soporifics until it is nice and pliable and ready for work on the colonies once you’ve tired of it.

Enjoy your new toy Shills and Minions,
Lord Draconis Zeneca, VH7ihL
Forward Mavoon of the Great Fleet, Pharmaca Magna of Terra, Exchequer of PharmaLucre

Glaxxon PharmaCOM Terrabase DIA
0010111101010001010111001010111001

—————————————-MESSAGE ENDS

Or have they substituted this with the promotion of petrochemical meds — since the Greek word for sorcery is the word “pharmacopeia,” a word used to describe prescription drugs?

*koff*

I have to apologise for the many typos above- I was in a rush as my computer was acting baulkishly and refusing to comply with my entreaties for it for behave properly.

But before I traipse off…
I find the tweets Orac displayed above unsettling :
they remind me of the vehement hatred I often encounter at anti-vax/ woo websites and comment sections- they envision professionals and SBM supporters as the enemy – deserving of retribution or punishment for the *harms* they perpetrated- the crimes that resulted in ‘vaccine injury’.Threats may proceed towards action, especially if they are sanctioned by those respected in their community

Do I fear for Orac and SBM supporters?
Not really- they mostly know how to take care of themselves.

But I wonder if surrogate targets might bear the brunt of this scorn? The nurse who vaccinates children for their city or a vocal epi with a blog who works for a health department might get calls to their respective employers or hear outrageous accusations.

Most importantly, those who indulge in revenge fantasies do harm to themselves as well because rather than seeking verbal and legal solutions, they resort habitually to vitriolic outbursts for catharsis- which solve nothing.

A friend from Atlanta came up to visit, and she told me a very interesting story:

Imagine that there is a psychologist who took his required public health and epidemiology courses to work at CDC but never really practiced them. Imagine that all he did was look over medical records and make sure that cases are cases and controls are controls. There is no lab test for diagnosing autism, so they need to use medical records and behavioral services notes. He does this for a while and is paid well. After all, it’s hard to pin down autism. Autistics come in a wife variety of presentations. He’s done good research and helped a lot, but he’s kept low.

One day, in a meeting to look at results of a study, the psychologist sees a table where there is a statistically significant finding. He doesn’t say anything or ask any questions. He just files it away and it eats at him. He doesn’t understand that the effect went away in the conditional (adjusted) analysis. He think that THAT is data manipulation. When he tries to tell his colleagues that those associations should be looked into, they try to explain to him why they’re spurious associations.

As the years go by, it continues to eat at him that there are tables out there where statistically significant associations are found but are then lost when data analysis is done. The analysis is proper, but he doesn’t understand. He sees it as data manipulation.

He wants those spurious associations investigated, but it is explained to him that it’s hard enough to get autistic cases as it is. Prevalence is around 1% in all children, and it is smaller in, say, poor Black children because they don’t have access to good diagnosticians. So getting 1,000 children of the attributes seen in the spurious associations means screening millions of children for nothing. The analysis, a proper analysis, has shown that they would be chasing windmills. But he still doesn’t understand.

He turns to different avenues to try and get at those spurious associations and investigate them further, but he gets nowhere with his colleagues. Some even go as far as laugh at him and label him with names that most possibly hurt him. Then along comes a biochemist with a PhD and questions that mimic the psychologist’s about statistically significant findings that are either not meaningful or are explained away by adjusting for confounders. They strike up a conversation and the rest is history.

This is all from a friend, over coffee, on a Saturday morning. Take it with a grain of salt.

Denice,
I concur. However, threats of decapitation, joking, metaphorical or whatever, don’t seem particularly amusing to me, given recent events.

So all we know from Thompson’s lawyer is that there may be a third possibility? I don’t know how these legal things work, but do you suppose we’ll ever find out what that was?
(….what ever happened to F Arguello? Gosh, I remember when he was harrassing you big time)(and it seems sooo long ago now)

From “Russell Saunders” (the pseudonym of a pediatrician practicing in the Northeast US)

Antivaxxers Have A New Hero

In short, not only did experts outside of the CDC verify the original study, but Dr. Hooker’s new paper likely reaches the findings it does because he uses the wrong kind of analysis for the data set….So not only were whatever qualms Dr. Thompson had insufficient to have him remove his name from the original study, they were neither enough to make him speak out publicly in the decade since nor have him willingly attach his name to any effort to debunk it. Not a lot of air tooting that whistle, no matter what the video would lead viewers to believe.

Reuben at #17:

Interesting story. But does it really line up with a certain researcher’s publication history?

You really should take any message that is even remotely threatening and refer it to the proper authorities. Those folks will be VERY unhappy when the FBI comes calling.

That is ultimately the only way to moderate such behavior.

There is a comment at Jake’s blog where Barry says

…no-one will be around to explain the science. Because there isn’t any.

http://www.autisminvestigated.com/whistleblower-wakefield-outed/#comment-39205

That’s something I’ve noticed at Jake’s blog. He never discusses the science of, well, anything. As near as I can tell, it’s just a gossip column.

I would suspect that someone working towards a PhD would at least mention when he learns something that supports his “theories”. Maybe he’s learning that science doesn’t support his “theories”. Maybe he knows his teachers will laugh at him if he tries. Either way, he only talks about who’s naughty and who’s nice.

He might be a bright kid, but I’m not seeing a lot of it. But I will admit I get a guilty pleasure from reading his blog.

I’m really not sure how Jake got his degree….GWU (my alma mater) might not be the best program in the country, but it certainly isn’t the worst either.

His blog is “interesting” and yes, it is merely an extension of his “6-degrees” conspiracy tactics. No science to be seen.

That’s something I’ve noticed at Jake’s blog. He never discusses the science of, well, anything. As near as I can tell, it’s just a gossip column.

Funny you should mention that as the very thought crossed my mind recently. He has the opportunity to discuss and defend Hooker’s choice of statistics and given his education, you’d think he would but not a single word. You’re right, he doesn’t mention the science at all.

Wakefield has often said that the MMR controversy has cost him, “His job, his career, and his country.”

He has, and he was lying. What cost him his job his career and his country was (a) his refusal of his employer’s request that he replicate his February 1998 Lancet study; (b) his refusal to sincerely apologise for his misconduct in concealing from the public and his associates that he was hired in February 1996 by lawyers (at today’s rate of $413 an hour) to attack MMR; and (c) his belief that he could make more money from parents of disabled children than he would ever make in academic research.

“Wakefield, Hooker, and Mikovits would NEVER dream of concealing data.”

Oh yes? So how is it that two years after a complete description of all the data he concealed was put online, not one critique has challenged the page after page after page of concealments?

http://briandeer.com/solved/slapp-amended-declaration.pdf

Not one single patient in his case series was not subject of some form of concealment.

@Brian – any idea when we’ll see a ruling in Texas?

I still get confused with you over at the AoA corral…..

@Reuben Gaines, that’s exactly how I imagined things going as well. I also imagine a psychologist looking at 19 statistically significant results out of 380 results, seeing that one of those results associates tics with flu vaccines, and thinks that that one, surely, must be truly significant even though that other one, showing that thimerosal raises IQs in boys, is obviously just a chance result. And of course the epidemiologists and statisticians can’t convince him otherwise.

The Potentially Libelous CNN iReport has been flagged and removed from the site. I guess it looked like it was goint to go from “potential” to “actual” libel.

We’ve already witnessed our colleagues (Orac, Ren and Reuben Gaines), being harassed on their jobs, by Jake Crosby and his former pals at Age of Autism.

The AoA yellow journalism editors (Dan Olmsted and John D. Stone), their contributing bloggers and posters have upped the ante, by publishing personal information about a law school professor, which has resulted in multiple harassing and threatening calls to her employer, to her husband at his place of business and to her home. I’ve heard those recordings of those threatening messages; they are vile.

I lay the blame on Olmsted, Stone and every other individual who posted that private information on Age of Autism.

@ Reuben Gaines: Have I missed something about Dr. Thompson’s and Brian Hooker’s credentials?

Do either of them have a MPH-Epidemiology degree which “might’ qualify them to analyze the existing DeStefano et al study? (Hooker managed to analyze DeStefano et al as a cohort study…and managed to mess up his own statistical calculation).

Folks, Brian Deer is incredible humble when it comes to promoting his excellent investigative journalism 🙂

Let’s take a look at how almost 15,000,000 Pounds Sterling, was disbursed from the publicly-funded Legal Aid Board to Wakefield and his cronies, by the bottom feeding attorney Richard Barr…before any case was brought to court to sue the manufacturers of the MMR vaccine:

http://briandeer.com/wakefield/legal-aid.htm

Even after the entire Legal Aid Board funds were depleted, Mr. Barr strung potential plaintiffs along for years, never informing them that there were no funds available to sue the manufacturers of MMR vaccine for vaccine injuries:

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/26/mmr-autism-lawyers-sued-hodge-jones-allen-claim-legal-aid#comments

That says it was based on less than 1400 children enrolled in Autism Speaks Network Treatment Centers. So it is not a comparison of them to the general public.

It seems to differ from Prevalence of Autism Spectrum Disorder Among Children Aged 8 Years — Autism and Developmental Disabilities Monitoring Network, 11 Sites, United States, 2010, which consisted of over 360,000 children and says in the abstract:

Non-Hispanic white children were approximately 30% more likely to be identified with ASD than non-Hispanic black children and were almost 50% more likely to be identified with ASD than Hispanic children.

I suspect that the one listed in AAP News is reflecting differences in socioeconomic, location or other factors. Needless to say, it is very small and all under one organizational umbrella.

It seems to differ from Prevalence of Autism Spectrum Disorder Among Children Aged 8 Years — Autism and Developmental Disabilities Monitoring Network, 11 Sites, United States, 2010

Spinks-Franklin et al. is about regression, not prevalence of ASD.

@Olefin (32)
That may be the study announced here:
http://www.autismspeaks.org/science/science-news/regressive-autism-reported-twice-often-among-african-american-children

which was mentioned on the “bad day” thread.

I replied here:

https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2014/08/28/a-bad-day-for-antivaccinationists-a-retraction-and-the-cdc-whistleblower-issues-a-statement/#comment-349678

I don’t have access behind the paywall, but it appears to have been done using their database of patients in the Autism Speaks Autism Treatment Network.

We’d need to see the full study to evaluate it, but since it’s based on their patients there may be a selection bias affecting the data.

Also, since they came up with numbers for regressive autism as distinct from all autism cases, it may just be that minority kids who just develop slowly (typical ASD) are less likely to get diagnosed than those who start to develop normally and then regress. Or, by the time they get diagnosed, the time frame or selective memory causes the patient to be diagnosed as regressive autism.

Without seeing the full report, we can’t tell.

A few things:

If Thompson has a doctorate in psychology I’d expect him to be _at least_ acquainted with statistical analysis UNLESS if he’s 100 years old or attended an incredibly abysmal university. Or else he’s forgot what he learned.

I agree with Johnny- I’m not impressed with Jake’s general skills either and wonder how he’s got this far. As I noted earlier, he seems clueless about others’ motivation; he may now have a little, tiny bit of insight into AJW’s inner workings after these events. Then again, he may not.

When I ‘conversed’ with him, he seemed intelllectually paralysed, unable to think freely or even entertain my questions about the possibility that a certain researcher cheated. I wonder how he feels about Andy ( and Hooker, for that matter) now.

And yes, I’d call AI a gossip column but that’s unfair to real gossip columns which don’t pretend to be investigation.

I just had an hilarious image in my mind’s eye:

Jake, dis-enchanted by his former hero, burns the midnight oil poring over briandeer.com anxiously trying to get the goods on Andy so he can enlighten his own followers.

Jake, we told you about him years ago!

If Thompson has a doctorate in psychology I’d expect him to be _at least_ acquainted with statistical analysis UNLESS if he’s 100 years old or attended an incredibly abysmal university.

University of Virginia, 1994. I don’t know what the deal is with his being in NCCDPHP/HRQOL, because the HHS directory listing is still NCBDDD.

If Thompson has a doctorate in psychology I’d expect him to be _at least_ acquainted with statistical analysis UNLESS if he’s 100 years old or attended an incredibly abysmal university. Or else he’s forgot what he learned.

I’m sure that by now you have heard some version of the following joke: 43% of statistics are made up on the spot. There are reasons why people laugh at that joke, among which is that there are people who take the statistical analyses of Hooker, Thompson, and others like them seriously. Or to put it another way: Figures can’t lie, but liars can figure.

Anti-vax diehards have produced a video statement in response to a television news reader’s admission that ‘vaccines don’t cause autism’ ( CNN); it is being posted at all the usual places including #CDCwhistleblower facebook and consists of various mothers telling how vaccines caused autism *right before their eyes*. ( video clips are each under a minute). It appears that Robert Scott Bell and Jon Rapaport are somehow involved.

The study about black and hispanic kids with autism being more likely to regress could also reflect a diminished ability to obtain good services to help the children. It might seem like a racial finding, but perhaps its’ a *poverty* finding, and a sort of reverse vindication of the value of early intervention.

Meanwhile, the whole thing to me seems to be just a case of “green jelly beans cause acne”, and reflects poorly on Thompson. Whatever the nebulous “third option” might turn out to be, I don’t think he comes out of this looking very good.

@ Calli:

You know, I would tell those who are new to SBM/ SB psychology scepticism that whenever something like this pops up, to ask themselves whether the result is supported by other studies which hint at the same – does it stand out in the crowd of consensus or not.

Meaningful research needs to be replicated. Thus, Andy’s ‘project’ never was repeated by those who weren’t directly involved with him. Other research found contrary results and these also seem more in synch with related neuro- developmental research. Early on, it seemed suspicious to me because I knew about how EARLY development related to ASDs was.

“he wanted to ‘plant a seed’ that maybe—just maybe—there might be another explanation, that this had been torturing Thompson all these years and he just had to do something because he couldn’t take it any more.”

His[Thompsons] lawyer said that? No kidding!
That is just about word for word what would be a defense to any legal action taken against Thompson for this(as well as his ‘friends’). As long as Thompson ‘believed’ he was acting in the best interests of the public, the reality of what he did takes a back seat, at least in a courtroom.

He didn’t just ‘plant a seed’, he gave you flat out how this will be playing out in court if it does indeed go that direction. Pay attention to this, because it will be the primary defense if Thompson ever finds himself on the wrong end of a civil suit.

Now, the threats of covert (and overt)violence being made by some of these supporters… those people are on their own, without a paddle, if law enforcement comes a knockin’.

This is a very entertaining site. I especially like the oxymoronic title Respectful Insolence which is so cute in a nerdy sort of way.

Then there’s the cheerful arrogance of DR ORC, the boob-job doctor (ai gevult — does he do nose jobs too?) and His Merry Band of Pro-Vaxers. It’s not a cult. It’s just another support group.

However I do have some suggestions on how to make a couple extra shekels for the good doctor. Why not get ads from Merck et al promoting the latest voodoo science experiments on children a/k/a vaccines?

Remember children really “need” 49 doses of 14 vaccines by the age of 6 (2012).

And the explosion of cases of autism since this increased regimen was foisted on the American population?

Never mind the statistics…

Or as George Bush would say — “See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in — to kind of catapult the propaganda “.

Wow. Jus read the mothering comments. They couldn’t go more than 5 without a link to bolen’s turd of a site. Wow.

Bob-Orac doesn’t perform breast augmentations. At least try to keep your insults correct lest you make yourself look even sillier.

Indeed. Breast augmentations are performed by plastic surgeons. I only operate on cancer or suspected cancer.

Now, in fairness, it’s true that in some countries (not the US) breast surgeons do their own reconstructions after mastectomies, but that’s not the same thing as breast augmentations. I”m sure, however, that BOB is completely unaware of such nuances.

By Post Author

From reading his comments, I suspect BOB is unaware of the nuance “socks first THEN shoes”.

The increase in the reported autism rate since 2012 is obviously due to the introduction of 4G by mobile phone networks.

Why does BOB not want to address that correlation?

Scientists like Wakefield, Hooker, and Mikovits would NEVER dream of concealing data.

I don’t know about Mikovits but Wakefield and Hooker don’t have to conceal it; by the time they’re done with the data, it’s unrecognizable.

Orac @55: Yikes. I find the “see Dorit” part of that especially alarming, since we have (had?) a regular here who posts under that handle. Is this twit referring to that Dorit, and if so is she alright?

Either way, I would expect that using Twitter to make threats would be a TOS violation, and should be reported to them, even if you don’t think it rises yet to the level where you want the FBI involved.

Jeebus Orac, he needs all day to find out where you work, call and say mean things?

Kidding aside, these bozos need to meet law enforcement.

All-Caps-BOB wrote:

Never mind the statistics…

I think I have an old punk album with that title somewhere….

And speaking of statistics, another AoA contributor Martin Hewitt tries to explain statistics to his readers and expectedly fails. Oh and others are trying to figure out what they can sue [insert agency name here] for since they say Thompson “admitted fraud”. Tim Bolen asks for Kent Heckenlively’s legal advice on that front.

Vaccidemic Dot Org is a charmer isn’t s/he? A brief browse of his/her timeline and clicking on some links reveals the whole antivaccine movement seems to be in a frenzy of vindication and self-congratulation, “I always said vaccine were dangerous/the CDC are liars/drug companies are trying to kill our children”, or whatever, with some gross misinterpretations of the Hooker-Thompson kerfuffle, as well as the usual anti-vaccine disinformation. So many lies it is impossible to deal with them all. Sadly most of these people will only realize they have been lied to when children start dying. It’s a bit depressing, really.

That’s why I’m pretty sure that nearly everyone who isn’t a crank who looks at anything Vaccidemic Dot Org does will recognize this guy as a crank par excellence. But it never hurts to give people a heads-up.

By Post Author

That’s why I’m pretty sure that nearly everyone who isn’t a crank who looks at anything Vaccidemic Dot Org does will recognize this guy as a crank par excellence.

I just noticed s/he has 155 followers. Scary.

kruuth:

Bob-Orac doesn’t perform breast augmentations. At least try to keep your insults correct lest you make yourself look even sillier.

Given he/she can’t manage to spell a four-letter name correctly (“DR ORC”, really?), this may be beyond his/her capacity.

Okay, bob–I’ll admit I’m curious.

What evidence do you beleive I’m ignoring, which establishes factually that “vaccines are part of a strategic global depopulation campaign and do nothing but cripple its victims with autism, tics and other horrific disabilities”?

Be specific. Citations to articles in first or second-tier peer-reviewed scientific journals would serve best.

I love the veiled anti-Semitism in BOB’s comment. Typical. Scratch a conspiracy theorist and you’ll find an anti-Semite.

Or as George Bush would say — “See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in — to kind of catapult the propaganda “.

Every once in a while, Bush managed to accidentally tell the truth, and this statement is one of those examples. It’s revealing that BOB brings this quote up, because it’s also an accurate description of what his anti-vax heroes do: catapult the propaganda regarding the talking point du jour, regardless of how long ago that talking point was debunked. There’s a reason they trot out these zombie hypotheses: they don’t have anything better to support their claims.

@bob – ‘vaccines are part of a strategic global depopulation campaign’

Hey bob,

Wouldn’t it be much easier to accomplish this supposed goal of yours by simply withholding vaccinations from the public? Seems to me that viruses were doing a perfectly adequate job of global population control on their own without the help of science. Why don’t you point us towards some numbers proving how effective population control via vaccine has been.

I was going to write something to the effect that Orac was being too kind in saying “the antivaccine movement is very much like a cult.” But then I realized proximity goes in more than one direction. The proposition “the antivaccine movement is a cult” is unfair to at least the vast majority of cults.

IMHO, those Tweets from Marsha McLelland are Beyond cult. I was going to ask if there’s any chance ‘Marsha McLelland’ is a Sub-Genius/Flying-Spaghetti/Landover-Baptist type parody: the ‘M of mars’ handle, the fact Rob Schneider is tagged, the stolen-from-Stephen-Colbert iconography of eagle and flag, the rogue’s gallery of phrases ‘You have been named. The ax is coming. Heads will roll. Time to pay…’ But the additional Tweets from MM posted by Dr. Gorski on the SBM site look ‘genuine’ to me.

But for the sake of argument, let’s say Martian Marsha IS intended as satire. Let’s say some smart-ass then posts something to the effect of “Haha, Dr. Gorski! You can’t tell a joke from the real thing!” Dr. Gorski then gets to pull out a plethora of undoubtedly real threats that are worse than anything posted by ‘McLelland.”

Honestly, I don’t know Denice can handle monitoring AoA and the other anti-vax toilets. I spent about five minutes looking at AoA after first stumbling onto RI a few years ago. That was more than I could take. I think it took me a week to recover from the ugliness and insanity. But I guess I’m glad somebody has the stomach for it.

I’d actually like to see the pro-vax folks do more to spotlight the batshit crazy in the anti-vax base. These folks do a pretty good job of putting on a public face of ‘rational argument’ ‘scientific justification’ ‘proper paternal caution’ etc. etc. I’d guess the fence-sitters haven’t peeled back the onion enough to see the uber-cultism and blind hate at the core. I’d like to think that seeing that would scare the bejeebers out of them and lead them toward a proper skepticism (if not Skepticism).

@Calli Arcade:

“Given he/she can’t manage to spell a four-letter name correctly (“DR ORC”, really?), ”

In case your not funning: ‘Dr. Orc’ is now pretty common anti-vax smack, likening Orac to Sauron’s mindless minions. I’m no fan of Tolkein’s ideology m’self, but I think that’s a lousy reading of LOTR.

BTW: I thought your comment on the political economy of vaccine production (#409 in previous thread) was brilliant and added a much-needed perspective to the discussion.

Jamie: I’d be more interested in “Bob’s” take on what the purpose of this strategic global depopulation campaign is? Killing off customers (or taxpayers) isn’t a great business model.

re twits

I just learned that twitter’s to be a-buzz in a few hours with a twit storm with the hearthisnow whatever meme ( see my # 47 above) because they didn’t like a particular news person, Elizabeth Cohen
( by way of Alison MacNeil @nicksmummie and Lisa Goes @thinkingmomsrev).

These women have WAY too much time on their hands.. Don’t they have children to tend and entertain?
I don’t and I have no time for these party games.

Two points: First of all, I’m not that BOB who is writing all those ridiculous things. You probably didn’t think so either, those of you who even recognize my name, but I wanted to make it clear.

Second: Back in the Watergate days, one of the Alsop brothers (both were columnists) wrote a story suggesting a visit from an unnamed stranger, who suggested that there really was a national security reason for the Watergate burglary. It didn’t really pass the sniff test at the time, but there it was in print in daily newspapers. I think it was later confirmed that this was, in fact, a gambit by the Nixon staff who were trying to cool down a rapidly igniting scandal. The column didn’t reflect well on the guy who wrote it.

In this case, Orac names the source and properly provides reasonable skepticism. What’s missing from the lawyer’s account is anything suggesting that Thompson had followed the literature during the intervening years, which should have alleviated his guilt quite a bit. After all, later studies and meta-analyses involving millions of children don’t reveal an association between mmr and autism, as our host has explained so thoroughly.

I think it was honorable to present this other supposed explanation, and is in keeping with this blog’s policy of openness. Thank you for that. It may very well be that this is essentially a legal gambit, as Invisible Man @50 suggests. I guess I don’t quite see how Thompson is going to get sued, but I can see how he might get demoted or fired, and that would explain a lot of the whistle blower and paralyzing guilt stories. The other likely intent was to try to get Orac to take some of the heat off of Thompson. Barn door, horse.

DW: I like your explanation of the anti-vaccine groups as essentially group therapy that is in error.

Eric Lund at #58: actually visited with Dorit in real life today; she is fine and I for one am happy she is back in California. The trolling nonsense is a little obnoxious but does not intrude on happiness.

Text Message Confirms #CDCwhistleblower Apology to Wakefield for CDC MMR Cover Up

http://www.ageofautism.com/2014/09/text-message-confirms-cdcwhistleblower-apology-to-wakefield-for-cdc-mmr-cover-up.html

Age of Autism has confirmed the veracity of this text message from #CDCwhistleblower Dr. William Thompson to Dr. Andrew J. Wakefield.

AJW: “Is the press release real?”

WT: “Yes”

AJW: Thank you. This was the right and honorable thing to do. Andy.

WT: I agree. I apologize again for ther price you paid for my dishonesty.

AJW: I forgive you complete and without any bitterness.

WT: I know you mean it and am grateful to know you more personally.

Oh boy. That’s for sure a real conversation.

Bob G,

Back in the Watergate days, one of the Alsop brothers (both were columnists) wrote a story suggesting a visit from an unnamed stranger, who suggested that there really was a national security reason for the Watergate burglary. It didn’t really pass the sniff test at the time, but there it was in print in daily newspapers.

I just had a horrible vision of 20 years in the future, with Andy Wakefield and Brian Deer (or Hooker and Thompson) on tour with a stage show a bit like Tim Leary and G Gordon Liddy….

For those who don’t know, G Gordon Liddy was one of the Watergate burglars who later was sent to spy on Timothy Leary in the hope of finding him doing something illegal (this was before LSD research was outlawed).

sadmar — yes, I was funning. 😉 I’m sure they think they are very clever, but it’s really just rather sad.

Gentlemen:

I thank you for your kind words: they made my day. After working early, I had errands- in and out of the car several times- which became bothersome because we’re currently experiencing high humidity which aggravates my sinus condtition and transforms my hair into a wimpy, pathetically Anglo version of dreadlocks. Youngsters in bands envy me.

Despite the horrors I survey, I remain unscathed by the madness, the ineptitude, the braggadocio and the wholesale slaughter of the English language. The anti-vaxxers are only a part of my purview as I also review alt media woo-meisters. I believe that my business-oriented ancestors passed down their tolerance genetically to me.

I believe that along with our analysis of how anti-vaxxers/ woo-meisters operate we need to point out the ludicrous balderdash which they present as ‘education’ and ‘information’. Of course, there is always a poignant note in recounting their nonsense because people can get hurt by following their ‘sagacious’ advice. So we can’t laugh too hard, despite the risibility of their antics.

Whilst I call the anti-vax girls’ club/ twittering nest of hornets
“group therapy gone bad’ I might remind you that people with psychological issues often gravitate to web woo-meisters and become amongst their most ardent followers which is just as maladpative as the former group’s reliance upon advisors who may have even more serious issues than they do themselves.

As Orac tells us, sceptics have to endure threats and insults: it’s no surprise to me because through my surveillance i hear and read so much hatred. SBM physicians are portrayed as greedy monsters; researchers are nearly organised crime and governmental employees are fascisti, if not worse.

For those who don’t know, G Gordon Liddy was one of the Watergate burglars who later was sent to spy on Timothy Leary in the hope of finding him doing something illegal (this was before LSD research was outlawed).

The Millbrook raids occurred before the Watergate break-in.

@herr doktor bimler

The chemtrails must have numbed our senses in some way.

That would be the barium, strontium, and aluminum…

Don’t they have children to tend and entertain?

A thought occurs: Do any of these so-called Thinking Moms have older children in addition to their autistic offspring? And if so, do these older siblings wonder why Mommy has taken to spending so much time at the computer with an adult beverage handy? Do they blame it on the strange younger sibling, or are they wondering if they themselves are to blame?

I have heard that many young children of divorcing parents blame themselves for the divorce, even though they are not at fault. (Fortunately, I do not have firsthand knowledge of this phenomenon.) All they know is that Mommy and/or Daddy have changed, and don’t love each other anymore. So why wouldn’t an older child of one of those mothers on the vaccines-cause-autism bandwagon wonder what’s wrong with Mommy?

@ Eric Lund;

A few of the TMs write about ALL of their children: I won’t be specific about which because we are talking about REAL children and they shouldn’t be objects of analysis even if their mothers are exceedingly wack.

A TM refers to her NT oldest daughter as a ‘thinker’- that is, an acolyte within the mystery religion to which they surrender. One even has her adolescent daughter write a post for TMR. Another writes about how her daughter helps her with daily chores around the house or with the autisitc child’s needs. One uses a slightly younger son ( who may or not have an ASD) as an assistant to manage the child with the more severe condition: this TM has 5 children in her care. There are many stories which lead me to believe that the other chldren are indeed getting the short end of the stick.

I don’t approve of how the TMs ( and others at various sinkholes of anti-vax contamination) write detailed posts- and BOOKs- in which their children’s disabilities or daily lives’ private moments are showcased and displayed to the world.. Children- NT or not- may eventually view these internet revelations concerning their lives. There are videos posted and children’s names plastered around the ‘net- even sometimes as part of a parent’s ‘nym or handle, e.g. williesdaddy or @petersmum.

As I mentioned previously I do actually feel sorry for these women and their travails – although less so when they make a career of it, earning money or accolades from the woo-entranced. They spend their time writing up a storm and avoiding the real issues: seeing their children as valuable just as they are and finding something to do with their own lives.

I’ve read comments in which Orac, BD and our merry band of sceptics are described as ‘childless’ thus unable to understand their frenzied activities as if none of us- with children or without- ever had a family member who was ill, disabled or in great need of assistance beyond our own abilities to assist them.

In the words of CDC Senior Scientist and Autism Epidemiologist, William W. Thompson, PhD. “I regret that my coauthors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article published in the journal Pediatrics. The omitted data suggested that African-American males who received the MMR vaccine before age 36 months were at increased risk for autism. Decisions were made regarding which findings to report after the data were collected, and I believe that the final study protocol was not followed…”

CDC Autism Researcher Informs Congress of Scientific Fraud in 2004 Medical Journal Publication

http://katysexposure.wordpress.com/2014/09/02/cdc-autism-researcher-informs-congress-of-scientific-fraud-in-2004-medical-journal-publication/

As a result of lack of U.S. government oversight either confirming or alleviating the parents’ concerns; parents of U.S. children are caught in the quandary of fearing increased risk for the safety of their own children should they adhere to the questionable CDC vaccination recommendations; or of facing the hardship of no public education for their children and societal accusations of being at fault for the spread of disease via their non-vaccinated offspring.

Vaccine defenders sometimes refer to the distraught parents and their scientific/medical proponents as “hilarious” science denialists.[16] [17] [18] [19] [20] Any parent struggling with the decision to vaccinate their child or not; knows there is nothing even remotely “hilarious” about the vaccine-autism debate and the mixed information fueling it.

When scientifically flawed medical journal publications, like the 2004 Pediatrics/CDC MMR/Autism study, are authored by government employees; and private sector “non-profit” physician organizations are involved with federal leaders in propagating the skewed data — public trust may be irreparably shattered until those responsible for flawed public health policy are held accountable.[23]

Regardless of who is right or who is wrong as to the need and safety of vaccinating America’s children for the greater good; all agree that impeccable ethics when establishing public health policies is of the utmost importance to protect us all.

Given all of the above, Congressional investigations of the CDC’s and their private-sector medical partners’ methodologies, ethics, and risk analyses when establishing public health policies, logically seems more than warranted. To this author, prompt Congressional investigations of Dr. Thompson’s claims seem imperative for the future health and safety of the United States and it’s people’s future confidence in the integrity of the CDC.

Any parent struggling with the decision to vaccinate their child or not; knows there is nothing even remotely “hilarious” about the vaccine-autism debate and the mixed information fueling it.

I agree: the misinformation propagated by anti-vaccine advocates and found on websites like AoA, Thinking Moms, etc., has led to reduced vaccine uptake, which has compromised herd immunity and resulted in serious outbreaks of infectious diseases like measles and rubella, both in the US and abroad, which has resulted in illness, injuries and deaths.

There’s nothing funny about that, or the harm anti-vax advocates do.

parents of U.S. children are caught in the quandary of fearing increased risk for the safety of their own children should they adhere to the questionable CDC vaccination recommendations

By what rational argument could the CDC’s vaccination recommendations be characterized as ‘questionable’–wWhat evidence suggests that vaccinating according to the CDC’s recommended childhood vaccine schedule engenders greater risk than remaining vulnerable to the infectious diseases those vaccines protect against?

Regardless of who is right or who is wrong as to the need and safety of vaccinating America’s children for the greater good; all agree that impeccable ethics when establishing public health policies is of the utmost importance to protect us all.

You say this af it there were some question regarding who is right and who is wrong on the issue of vaccine safety and the possibility of a causal association between vaccines and autism spectrum disorders–there isn’t. All available evidence argues solely in support of the overall safety and efficacy of routine childhood vaccination programs.

@Sharon

Your post is a bit disengenious… Copypasta snippets from the article you link to, as evidenced by the included footnotes. Not really a comment, more of a spam.

Orac: I think you’re probably being far too charitable here. I bet Dr. Thompson jumped ship in order to make a ton of money.

Sharon Kramer: facing the hardship of no public education for their children and societal accusations of being at fault for the spread of disease via their non-vaccinated offspring.

I’m glad the overworked, underpaid, and generally unappreciated public school teachers don’t have to deal with the venomous, narcisstic and overbearing parents who make up anti-vax movements. As for what society thinks of them- these parents simply don’t care, and realistically, I doubt they’d care if one of their kids contracted measles, mumps or any of the other diseases and died. If they were disabled from the diseases, the parents would dump them out of the house.
Their kids are nothing but convenient flags to wave at the world and hide behind. I’ve yet to see any evidence that these parents care for their offspring- even the NT ones. So please don’t pretend the parents have any human empathy. We know better.

@ PGP:

Although I haven’t any figures, I know that several of the TMs and AoA crusaders and other anti-vaxxers, make use of US public school services despite their carping about their government’s corruption. They take what they can get.

DW: Geez, the Thinking Mums have hypocrisy down to a fine art. I feel sorry for their kids- and the teachers.

Narad,

The Millbrook raids occurred before the Watergate break-in.

I realized that about a millisecond after hitting submit, but since it doesn’t affect the weirdness of the subsequent Leary/Liddy collaboration, I didn’t bother to correct it. I figured the only person who would notice would be you 😉

I am curious to know what people here think Dr. Thompson is suggesting when he states ” I believe that the final study protocol was not followed.” Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Cipriano Mondragon,

I am curious to know what people here think Dr. Thompson is suggesting when he states ” I believe that the final study protocol was not followed.” Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I don’t know what he is suggesting, but from what I have seen of Thompson’s words, which are heavily edited and may be out of context, I think he has a hard time understanding statistics. Apparently he doesn’t see that correcting for confounders in the DeStefano study is good science, and thinks that the uncorrected figures should have been published, even though they would certainly have misled many people into believing that African American males children are at risk from MMR, which they are not. He also seems to think that a single statistically significant result associating thimerosal with tics is clinically significant, when the results are consistent with the result being due to chance.

I may be wrong, and I hope that Thompson, and all the players have a chance to explain themselves fully, and for the entire truth to become clear to everyone. When it does I am confident that the CDC, and vaccines, will be exonerated.

Snopes, appears to be in the pocket of pharma also.

Snopes, is using science blogs, to use for for valid info.

Snopes, and science blogs, will be eating humble pie.

re harshness for the SB

@ AoA ( ‘SafeMinds Calls for….’ thread)

a commenter believes that the truth will out and then

” the Brian Deers, Paul Offit, that scum at the CDC, NIH and ‘science’ blogs all get what they deserve”.

I hope so.

Let’s revisit a CDC event stealthily held just outside of Atlanta in Gwinnett County at a RELIGIOUS (Methodist) retreat center in 2000:

What I want to know is if the “ideal” scientific study to track Thimerosal effect in vaccines, as described below by Dr. Rhodes, WAS ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTED, using the African-American Atlanta cohort fraudulently deleted from the 2004 paper by Thompson and DeStephano. NOTE: DeStephano was a presenter at this meeting. Dr. Orenstein, WHO IMPLEMENTED THE NEW VACCINE SCHEDULE, was at this meeting as well. The 2004 study data was from 1986-2003. Was this pre-planned? The African American babies selected to receive the HIGH dose? The dosage, manufacturer, and clinic location ARE tracked. Specific vaccine lots could be strategically placed. PLEASE CHECK THIS CO-HORT. Dr. Hooker was given the original statistics.

http://skeptico.blogs.com/Simpsonwood_Transcript.pdf

Scientific Review of Vaccine Safety Datalink Information June 7-8, 2000
Simpsonwood Retreat Center
Norcross, Georgia

Philip Rhodes, a Statistician in the National Immunization Program.

Dr. Rhodes

“What would one want? One would want somehow within a situation where there is comparable ascertainment, you would like kids who got very low level, 0 to 25, whatever micrograms of Thimerosal, versus those that got 75 or 100, but to have the same number of vaccinations. That they are equally vaccinated, but because of policy differences or manufacturer differences, have big difference in Thimerosal usage• But also in which you have equal ascertainment, and that may be rough. Getting both of those at the same time may be very, very difficult.”

Brian Deer got part of what he deserves already – Wakefield paid Deer’s legal expenses when Wakefield dropped his bogus case against Deer. How much more of Wakefield’s money does AOA think Deer deserves?

This statement was made by Dr. Orenstein in 2001 Before the Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions
United States Senate, after the Thimerosal/Simpsonwood meeting in 2000.

“The Vaccine Safety Challenge
Immunizations are subject to a higher standard of safety than other medical interventions because they are given to healthy people. Like all medical interventions, no vaccine is 100 percent safe or effective. Vaccine safety activities are needed to maintain public confidence in immunizations, preserve high coverage levels, and prevent a resurgence of vaccine-preventable diseases. The tremendous reduction in the occurrence of vaccine-preventable diseases, combined with the increased public attention on vaccine safety concerns, has resulted in some individuals questioning the important public health role of immunizations. To maintain confidence in immunizations, we must have a better understanding of which risks are truly attributable to vaccines, the magnitude of the risks, the groups at greatest risk of adverse events, the pathophysiology of adverse events, and the ability to effectively evaluate and treat adverse events. CDC has developed several projects to help address these needs. One project is a newly-funded Clinical Immunization Safety Assessment (CISA) network to assess individuals with selected adverse events and offer recommendations for management. CDC also funds a Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) project which collects population-based data on vaccine safety by utilizing medical care data from 8 managed care organizations around the United States. This system helps in determining whether adverse events following vaccination are causally related or are coincidentally related. Finally, CDC and NIH have contracted with the Institute of Medicine to provide independent review of emerging information concerning adverse events associated with vaccines. These reviews will address whether the available evidence supports a role for vaccine in causing the adverse event and recommendations for future research and public health actions.”

Oddly, the CDC/NIH are considered INDEPENDENT review for vaccine safety for the INSTITUTE OF MEDICINE. The now infamous Thompson 2004 FRAUD document was produced for this group!

“One project is a newly-funded Clinical Immunization Safety Assessment (CISA) network to assess individuals with selected adverse events..” An easy way to get a cohort.

“Since 1983, CDC has been operating stockpiles of certain vaccines. These stockpiles are used to address short-term disruptions in the production of universally recommended vaccines.

“There have been a number of instances when stockpiles were needed. Most withdrawals from the stockpiles have been made by manufacturers to address unanticipated vaccine production problems. For example, in 1986, the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) stockpile was used to assure a continuous supply of vaccine after a fire in a manufacturing plant.”

MY COMMENT: This MMR stockpile would have had Thimerosal (to extend shelf life) Was this stockpile sent to ATLANTA? Remember, the data set used for the fraudulent 2004 Thompson paper used data from 1986 – 2003. There is tracking from stockpile to clinic. Remember, they had to get a 70 – 100 microgram to one cohort. MMR was originally given separately, got the mercury level up quite a bit. Remember, Orenstein called the Simpsonwood meeting.

http://www.hhs.gov/asl/testify/t011127.html

MY COMMENT: This MMR stockpile would have had Thimerosal (to extend shelf life) Was this stockpile sent to ATLANTA? Remember, the data set used for the fraudulent 2004 Thompson paper used data from 1986 – 2003. There is tracking from stockpile to clinic. Remember, they had to get a 70 – 100 microgram to one cohort. MMR was originally given separately, got the mercury level up quite a bit. Remember, Orenstein called the Simpsonwood meeting.

I don’t have time right now for the rest of the bollocks but this was a hoot. Toto darling, MMR is a live viral vaccine, it has never ever ever contained thiomersal. The single jabs are also live, viral vaccines and have never ever ever contained thiomersal (excepting perhaps a killed measles virus vaccine used briefly 50 years ago) . All that work kaput in a paragraph.

Oh and those children would have received MMR thiomersal-free, not the single jabs, thiomersal-free.

Toto: “MY COMMENT: This MMR stockpile would have had Thimerosal (to extend shelf life) Was this stockpile sent to ATLANTA?”

Dear Toto,

Were you born stupid, or did you have to work hard to get to that level of idiocy? Because one of the basics of “how to tell someone is an idiot” is when they post about thimersal being in the MMR.

By the way, the MMR vaccine has been around since 1971. Give us the data that it caused autism two decades before Wakefield, and you might have something. Until then, you look like a fool.

Correction: “thimersal” should be “thimerosal”

I dropped one letter. So sue me. No spelling of it is correct on Firefox Mozilla.

Heh. It gets better. Check out the 2014 June 6 statement of organization; only the first page is necessary. Revolutionpac-dot-com is (now) a redirect to constitutionalrightspac-dot-com. I wonder whether it’s time to…

… visit the Wayback Machine, since I can’t find Franchi’s name anywhere on the new one. Yup, 9/11 twoofing. L-rd only knows what the “under new management” bit is about, other than that it seems to coincide with the end of Franchi’s involvement. And finally fulfilling the orders for the Ron Paul action figures.

Hey, wait a second… at least the Southern Poverty Law Center has heard of him.

Yes, this is the Great White (Album) Hope.

I clicked on Narad’s link to Dachel’s recent AoA screed, and found:

Thompson also says the CDC knew about this link, and purposely manipulated the evidence to remove “Black Babies without birth certificates” from the study.

I suppose I should be aware by now that AoA don’t even pretend to keep their facts straight, but how would this even be possible if the only way of knowing a child’s ethnic origin was from the birth certificate? They didn’t remove them from the study anyway, but used to birth certificate data to correct for confounders. If they had ignored known confounders, that would be poor science.

The initial report showed a 340 percent increase in autism among black boys under 36 months old.

That mistaken 340% increase (which speaks volumes of Wakefield’s knowledge of statistics) will always be with us, won’t it, just like Simpsonwood.

BTW I laughed out loud at Toto’s description of it as “a RELIGIOUS (Methodist) retreat center”. Like the people who run conference centers get to decide anything that is discussed there. Someone certainly isn’t in Kansas any more.

@Kreb – they do like to keep repeating the same lies over and over again….340% is wrong (even some folks at AoA pointed that out), Hooker even stated “risk of,” which again, is ignored.

AoA can’t even keep their own stories straight on Science that supposedly supports them….such idiots over there.

DR. THOMPSON APOLOGIZES TO DR. WAKEFIELD ON TWITTER. Says paper, if published with TRUE findings, would have supported his theory.

http://www.robertscottbell.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Dr-Wake-txt1.jpg
Twitter screen shot

That ain’t Twitter, chudev. You seem to have made up that idea yourself. The alleged apology conversation is alleged to have occurred by text messages, not Twitter. And the screenshot you show is clearly the interface for text messaging, not for Twitter.

You may ask, “text messages, Twitter, what’s the difference!” I’m so glad you asked!

The difference is that tweets are public. They go out to everyone. There is an (imperfect) record of them, so that if anyone later wants to know “Did so-and-so actually say that??” they can actually go and see for themselves. People can delete their own tweets or even their account, which is why the record is imperfect, but some form of verification is at least possible.

Text messages, by contrast, are privately sent and privately received. Which means that if someone SAYS “Oh, so-and-so apologized to me by text messages and told me I was right” there is NO WAY any third party without a court order can verify whether that exchange actually occurred.

Which means that if the person who reported receiving those text messages has been shown by one of the longest and most expensive GMC proceedings of all time to have acted with utter dishonesty, lying time and time again, we have NO REASON to believe that those text messages ever existed.

Seriously. You’re obviously quite gullible on this subject, Toto, but surely even you can see that “it must be true, because Andrew Wakefield says it happened, even though no one else can verify that it happened” is like saying “it must be a sound financial investment, since it’s recommended by Bernie Madoff”. Right? You have at least that much ability to think for yourself, right?

You are correct. It was a text to Wakefield, not Twitter. I don’t use either, so I typed Twitter by default. Yes, it would have to be verified.
It is.
Neither Thompson, nor Wakefield have denied it.

The MMR vaccine in the stockpile was put there BEFORE 1986. Because it was purchased specifically to stockpile, we don’t know what form it was in. How long can a live virus be stored?
We really don’t know WHAT was in the vaccine(s) labeled MMR in the stockpile. IT HAS NO INDEPENDENT OVERSIGHT.

“This is the accessible text file for GAO report number GAO-02-987
entitled ‘Childhood Vaccines: Ensuring an Adequate Supply Poses
Continuing Challenges’ which was released on September 13, 2002”
http://www.gao.gov/assets/240/235553.html

The United States Pediatric Vaccine Stockpile Program
http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/42/Supplement_3/S125.full.pdf
“At the time that the first stockpiles were created in 1983, the childhood immunization schedule was much less complicated than it is today, and the first stockpiles were to include only measles-mumps-rubella, poliovirus, and pertussis vaccines, and diphtheria and tetanus toxoids for children. The first delivery of vaccine to the national stockpile took place on 27 December 1983 and included 596,000 doses of measles-mumps-rubella vaccine. By the beginning of 1988, stockpiles of 5 of the 6 recommended vaccines had been established, and the size of most of the stockpiles was close to reaching the targeted number of doses needed for a 6-month supply.”

Here is the article about the 1986 fire at Merck. Rather curious:

“1-million Fire Hits Merck Plant 140 Workers Evacuated, 3 Firemen Hurt In Blaze Caused By Welder
September 23, 1986|by CHUCK AYERS And DAN FRICKER, The Morning Call
A workman making repairs with a welding torch accidentally ignited a fire that caused more than $1-million damage yesterday to a building at the Merck Sharp & Dohme pharmaceutical plant in Upper Gwynedd Township. Three firefighters were injured.”
The fire started about 11 a.m., when a company workman accidentally ignited insulation in the sterile operations building, according to Roy Walker, manager of press relations for Merck. The fire fed on insulation and refrigeration oil before spreading throughout the building in the company complex in the township’s West Point section, Messa said.”

“The fire spread before automatic fire control equipment could contain it,” Walker said. “It spread so rapidly the existing fire equipment did not activate in time.”

“Because they were unable to enter the building, Walker said, no determination could be made specifically what products may had been consumed by the fire, but he noted that regardless of what chemical solutions may have been involved, no health threat was posed by their combustion.”

“Walker said vaccines for measles, mumps, rubella and pneumonia, an ophthalmic solution for treatment primarily of glaucoma and possibly a hepatitis vaccine were in production when the fire occurred.”
“Most of the vaccines do not contain active viruses, he said, and he noted the products were all kept in sealed rooms.”

http://articles.mcall.com/1986-09-23/news/2533130_1_fire-spread-hospital-for-smoke-inhalation-air-bottles

NOTE: MMR Vaccines from the stockpile would have had a date PRIOR TO September 22, 1986.

According to Merck, the vaccine is available separately:
“Therefore, prior to international travel, individuals known to be susceptible to one or more of these diseases can either receive the indicated monovalent vaccine (measles, mumps, or rubella), or a combination vaccine as appropriate. However, M-M-R II is preferred for persons likely to be susceptible to mumps and rubella; and if monovalent measles vaccine is not readily available, travelers should receive M-M-R II regardless of their immune status to mumps or rubella.{34-36}”
http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf

Merck’s top vaccine scientist and inventor of their mumps vaccine (used in the MMR) warned IN A 1991 MEMO of the dangers of the cumulative dose of Thimerosal in the new vaccine schedule (implemented in 1986 by the CDC’s Dr. Orenstein) :

“’91 Memo Warned of Mercury in Shots
February 08, 2005|Myron Levin | Times Staff Writer

“A memo from Merck & Co. shows that, nearly a decade before the first public disclosure, senior executives were concerned that infants were getting an elevated dose of mercury in vaccinations containing a widely used sterilizing agent.

The March 1991 memo, obtained by The Times, said that 6-month-old children who received their shots on schedule would get a mercury dose up to 87 times higher than guidelines for the maximum daily consumption of mercury from fish.

“When viewed in this way, the mercury load appears rather large,” said the memo from Dr. Maurice R. Hilleman, an internationally renowned vaccinologist. It was written to the president of Merck’s vaccine division.

The memo was prepared at a time when U.S. health authorities were aggressively expanding their immunization schedule by adding five new shots for children in their first six months. Many of these shots, as well as some previously included on the vaccine schedule, contained thimerosal, an antibacterial compound that is nearly 50% ethyl mercury, a neurotoxin.”
http://articles.latimes.com/2005/feb/08/business/fi-vaccine8

Toto…what part of “MMR is a live vaccine and thimerosal is a preservative” do you NOT get?

The original Polio vaccine was given orally (OPV). Later they developed a dead injectable version (IPV). How do we know a dead version of the MMR was not specifically developed for the stockpile version? It would certainly be more cost effective if it had a longer shelf life. How do we know what is in ANY of the vaccines in the stockpile? Do we have an OUTSIDE entity that does RANDOM checks on the vaccine contents? The FDA doesn’t count. What was the shelf life for the MMR vaccine back in 1983? Were the vaccines stored individually or all together? How would you know? Who oversees the disposal of outdated vaccines from the stockpile? Where is the list that would tell us this information? Who is in charge of it?
Shay, you seem to be an expert. Please share this info with us. After all, it is the taxpayers who bear the liability for vaccine injury. It is the individual parent who must give INFORMED CONSENT to have their baby vaccinated. If parents have no assurance of what is in the individual vaccine that OUR child receives, how much Thimerosal it contains, how can we give it? “Trust me”, is that what we are to go by? Remember, I have read the Simpsonwood document in its entirety. I have personally attended a RELIGIOUS retreat at Simpsonwood. It is not a commercial conference center.

How do we know that Toto did not poison the MMR supply? How do we know that Toto didn’t steal the supply of polio vaccine and replace it with milk sugar? How do we know that there even is such a thing as an MMR vaccine, and that it isn’t a figment of Wakefield’s imagination?

Absurd questions, but no more absurd than Toto’s “how do we know that XYZ fantasy didn’t happen, and by the way, ignore the people whose job it is to keep our food and drugs safe.”

Vicki,

I figured it all out. The Illuminati and Homeland Security load up the storage tanks of all those chemtrail planes with mercury, aluminum, monkey pus, aborted baby cells and ground-up Snickers bars. All the stuff that causes little babies to react immediately after getting it injected “directly into their bloodstreams.”

These planes then spray their payload over doctors’ offices, clinics, pharmacies and anywhere else vaccines are administered to poison the vaccine supply in order to depopulate the planet under orders from Bill Gates.

Oh yeah, the Jews. Obamacare. And 9/11 too.

(Mike Adams actualy invoked his 9/11 conspiracy theories again today in a post about cell towers across the U.S. being erected to intercept content from phone calls and texts…)

Oh, and Thompson is really a false flag stooge who is being played by Black Ops to “admit” to the CDC cover-up in order to distract the sheeple from the true source of vaccine contamination, the gub’mint. Big Pharma really has nothing to do with it this time. They’re also part of the innocent victims of the false flag distraction tactic. The CDC is under direct control of MK Ultra.

@Vicki
I asked specific questions. Can you answer these?
* Do we have an OUTSIDE entity that does RANDOM checks on the vaccine contents? (in the stockpile)

*What was the shelf life for the MMR vaccine back in 1983?

*Who oversees the disposal of outdated vaccines from the stockpile?

*Where is the list that would tell us this information? Who is in charge of it?

Here is a new question, just for you:
What is the TOTAL Thimerosal content (in micrograms) for the following vaccines, if all given on the same day (i.e. a typical single dose) in the year 1997:
MMR, DTP, OPV, HbPV

This is not a trick question. I sincerely want to know. Surely with all the science/vaccine experts posting here, I can get a timely answer.

Here is a new question, just for you:
What is the TOTAL Thimerosal content (in micrograms) for the following vaccines, if all given on the same day (i.e. a typical single dose) in the year 1997:
MMR, DTP, OPV, HbPV

You’re really not paying any attention, are you?

The original Polio vaccine was given orally (OPV). Later they developed a dead injectable version (IPV).

Holy fυck, you’re really bad at this.

Hey, Toto, so who stole the maple syrup stock pile in Quebec?

Also the MMR, OPV and IPV vaccines have never contained any thimerosal.

The original Polio vaccine was given orally (OPV). Later they developed a dead injectable version (IPV). How do we know a dead version of the MMR was not specifically developed for the stockpile version? It would certainly be more cost effective if it had a longer shelf life.

*facepalm*

So let me get this straight. You think that a major pharmaceutical company solved all the technical hurdles involved in creating a new triple vaccine, one that had major advantages over the existing vaccine… and after all the research funds that must have gone into developing that vaccine, they don’t DO ANYTHING with it? Except substitute it surreptitiously for the other vaccine? In the cramped recesses of your little mind, this actually seems like what a pharmaceutical company would do to maximize their profit, create a wholly viable product but keep its existence a complete secret? You are a special kind of stupid, m’lad. I bet you watched “Austin Powers” and came out of the theater in chills because Dr. Evil seemed like such a realistic and plausible villain.

Hey, Toto, so who stole the maple syrup stock pile in Quebec?

Everybody knows that.* BTW, the Walgreens chain has a house brand that is dirt-cheap, probably because people have been led by The Maple Cartel to believe that “Grade A” is superior to “Grade C,” when exactly the opposite is the case.

* OK, I was following it, for obscure reasons involving friendly jibes that also involved garage remodeling.

Toto: “The original Polio vaccine was given orally (OPV). Later they developed a dead injectable version (IPV)”

Wrong, wrong, wrongety wrong. The original vaccine was Salk’s IPV, and then Sabin developed the OPV.

@Chris P
Thank you for honestly trying to answer my question and actually documenting your source.

My first comment is that the table was from 1999, not 1997. Actually, I made a mistake, I meant to type 1996. Things can change quickly. The HbPV is Haemophilus b Conjugate Vaccine. It was not listed on the table.

My next point is that the table is labeled thus (emphasis mine):
“Thimerosal Content in SOME US-Licensed Vaccines.”
I suggest you read the Simpsonwood document where they candidly refer to the fact that the same antigen can be delivered with or without Thimerosal in some vaccines. Any 10 dose vial contains Thimerosal.

I have another question. The OPV was given at least until 1997 and then was switched to the IPV in 2000. Do you know why? Also, if the vaccine virus was dead, why wouldn’t you use Thimerosal?

Thanks

Slightly off-topic, but related to Hooker’s COI statement…

Narad, do you happen to know of a link to Hooker’s open VICP case?

@Chris P

One more question:
If a child born July 5, 1987 received the Hepatitis B vaccine at birth, did it come from the1986 released stockpile that Dr. Orenstein referred to (due to the Merck fire)? What about the 15 month MMR? How would you know? How old was the stock in the 1986 stockpile? The HepB absolutely contains Thimerosal and would have a longer shelf life.

Toto, things do not change that quickly in vaccination, except after 1999 when many manufacturers agreed to take thimerosal out of pediatric vaccines.

If you were interested in the Hib conjugate vaccine you would not have described it as HbPV (the P standing for polysaccharide). In any case, the conjugate vaccine is indeed in the table.

Given all the vaccines you listed were in the table, I am not sure why you think the “some” in the heading has any bearing on your question.

You say you meant to type 1996, rather than 1997? This looks like some goalpost shifting going on, but you should know that thimerosal was never in MMR vaccine or OPV vaccine.

The OPV was preferred because it provided strong immunity and also contact immunity. That is you didn’t have to be vaccinated to become immune, you just had to be in close contact with someone who had been. This allowed immunity to be spread more rapidly in the population. The IPV was much less effective at providing immunity, but after polio had been eliminated from the US it was preferred. The need to have such a high level of immunity after a single dose was no longer required as risk of exposure to the disease was much less. Also the OPV occasionally (1 in 750,000) reverted to the wild type. Once polio had been eradicated, the risk from the vaccine became higher than the risk of catching the disease.

@AdamG
Thanks for the links. I found the following to be quite interesting:

“Polio vaccines
Oral polio vaccine (OPV):

Also known as the Sabin vaccine.
It comprises live attenuated strains of poliovirus 1-3.
Advantages:
Cheap; orally administered.
Promotes antibody formation in the gut; this protects more effectively against wild polio infection and reduces transmission of the wild virus.
Provides community benefit because the vaccine virus is excreted; therefore the contacts of recently immunised children may, in effect, get a second-hand dose of the vaccine.
It is therefore used to contain outbreaks, and for eradication where polio is endemic.
Drawbacks:
Small risk of vaccine-related polio (VAPP or VDPV, above). The VAPP risk may be higher for immunocompromised patients.
Inactivated polio vaccine (IPV):

Also known as the Salk vaccine.
Contains inactivated strains of polioviruses 1-3.
Advantage: no risk of vaccine-related polio.
Disadvantage: does not stimulate antibody in the gut, so less effective against wild poliovirus.
Protects only the immunised person; no community benefits.
The decision nationally as to which vaccine to use depends on the balance of various risks:

The risks of wild polio virus being imported – if this is high, favours OPV.”

“Polio vaccination in the UK
In the UK, immunisation started in 1956 using IPV. This was replaced by OPV from 1962.
From 2004, the UK switched back to using IPV.
IPV is normally given in combination with tetanus and diphtheria vaccines (see ‘Immunisation schedule in the UK’ below).”

“IPV is part of the diphtheria/tetanus/pertussis/polio/Hib vaccine. It is also available without the haemophilus component for children > 3 years.”
http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/Polio-Vaccination.htm
MY NOTE: In 1996 in the U.S., the vaccines were given separately: MMR, DTP, OPV, and HbPV in the same day at age 18 mos.

Interestingly, Dr. Orenstein (Headed up the CDC and implemented the major change in vaccine schedule starting in 1986. He also called for and attended the Simpsonwood meeting) is also very interested in polio vaccines:

“To Keep Polio At Bay, Israel Revaccinates A Million Kids
by JASON BEAUBIEN
September 02, 2013 3:24 AM ET

There’s concern that the virus circulating in Israel may spill out of the country, says Emory University’s Dr. Walt Orenstein, who has worked extensively on polio. “There’s enough virus circulating [in Israel] that it could get out of that area in to other countries,” Orenstein says.

To ensure the entire community is protected against polio, Israel has started using the oral vaccine, instead of the injectable one. The oral vaccine contains a weakened, live form of the poliovirus, which can spread through the environment and help immunize kids that don’t get vaccinated.

Getting rid of polio flare-ups, like the one in Israel right now, is a crucial part of eradicating polio globally, Orenstein says. Although eradication efforts are focused on the remaining reservoirs in Nigeria, Afghanistan and Pakistan, he says, the rest of world can’t let its guard down against the disease.”
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/09/02/217194998/to-keep-polio-at-bay-israel-revaccinates-a-million-kids
NOTE: This will be a great cohort to measure the incidence of vaccine-related polio. I look forward to reading that study.

Toto: “If a child born July 5, 1987 received the Hepatitis B vaccine at birth,”

Well none did. It was not added onto the schedule until the early 1990s.

“If you were interested in the Hib conjugate vaccine you would not have described it as HbPV”

That is how it was listed on my child’s shot card. Beneath it it said “Haemophilus b Conjugate – Vaccine ”
In 1996, it seems that it was given as a separate shot and was later combined. I didn’t intend to mislead you for the date. I have another child born in 1997, and I accidentally typed that instead. So, I still need the info for 1996.

“Well none did. It was not added onto the schedule until the early 1990s.”
I believe the Simpsonwood document begs to differ. Check it out.
Perhaps it was in the “trial” phase that early. My child, who was born in Atlanta, got a shot of something at birth in the hospital. I assumed it was a routine vaccine. That is the only vaccine given at birth and it contained 12.5 micrograms of Thimerosal, I believe.

@ChrisP #139

Contact immunity — You mean ‘only god knows what grampa comes home and sheds on the family after getting his CVS discount??

Thought so. Perhaps, it’s the non-vaxxers who should be worried about the *dirty, vaccinated children…*

I just grabbed a printout of the vaccine record for my youngest (born 1994) I got for her university admission. It says:

HIB, PRP-T, PED/ADOLESCENT

They were given in 1994, with the last one in 1995. She was the first of the three to get the HepB vaccine at birth, which is how I know the date. Her older siblings got caught up after she was born (we live where there is a large population with it).

According to the CDC Pink Book Chapter on HIB there are two approved for infants. So it may be just the clinic’s way to distinguish the brands.

As I poked around I found a vaccine timeline of sorts:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK25351/

“I believe the Simpsonwood document begs to differ. Check it out.”

But it was not give to all infants. See the timeline I posted, the year 1991 shows: “Hepatitis B recommended by ACIP for addition to childhood immunization schedule”

Also check out the Pink Book Chapter on HepB. Read the section titled “Hepatitis B Prevention Strategies.” The vaccine was initially given to high risk individuals, but they were not always known due to probable errors in memory and testing. So the vaccine for infants was added in 1991.

And if you make a reference to the Simpsonwood document, than post that link and page number. It is a big document.

@toto

That would probably be the hep-b shot.

If they try to give it at birth, then it’s probably because they thought the mother was a whore.

@toto

Sorry man, that was probably the vitamine K shot — Who knew the one shot my daughter got was a K- shot. A year after birth. Who knew that the one shot they’d push before accepting a patient was the one with mercury that sounds inoccuous??

I remember the inconsolable baby… I found out about the shot later. I’d never dreamed it had mercury in it. I find something else to indict *the system* with every day.

Thx.

@Chris
“Hepatitis B tends to be a bit low, and I think that primarily is because of capturing the birth dose. The hospital’s HMO birth dose some times didn’t tend to get into the data bases as well in the early years. I think Tom in his presentation will probably have some more to say about this.”
Simpsonwood

You are indeed full of useless misinformation Tim.

Vitamin K injections never contained any mercury.

Contact immunity only works for attenuated virus vaccines and then only for some of those. Not so much shedding as defecating.

Post 98 has the link you were asking for. If you don’t read the entire doc., you really don’t know much. Private knowledge/public knowledge. p. 28

Why is no one answering my very simple questions about the vaccine stockpile? It represents a whole lot of unregulated vaccines, added into the mainstream at the behest of unknown individuals. Why should we assume they are safe? Why should we assume they are labeled correctly?

“If they try to give it at birth, then it’s probably because they thought the mother was a whore.”

LOL! Wouldn’t that be about 95% of mothers? The ’70’s had already happened.

Why is no one answering my very simple questions about the vaccine stockpile?

This would be the one involving a cache of thimerosal-laden MMR? I think that has been answered.

“If they try to give it at birth, then it’s probably because they thought the mother was a whore.”

LOL! Wouldn’t that be about 95% of mothers? The ’70′s had already happened.

I’m calling sock.

Toto: “Simpsonwood”

Which happened nine years after the 1991 introduction of the HepB to childhood vaccine schedule.

Missing from your comment:

1: link, would it kill you to provide the URL? You can just cut and paste it.

2: page number

3: quote that actually included the year, you are claiming it was given to infants in the 1980s, I don’t see a year in that quote. It was one of the last vaccines to become vaccine free, but that does not change when it was introduced.

Given Toto’s use of the 1996/7 dates three things come to mind:

Is one of their children autistic?
If so, sample sizes are too small to use them as proof of anything outside of rare injury events (if that).
Are they forgetting that autism existed for at least forty years before this so-called conspiracy in the 80s/90s?

Other than that, it’s a bit of a long drawn out way of presenting the “too many too soon” gambits with a dash of argument from authority and a whole big conspiracy. Simpsonwood, zombies never die do they?

“If they try to give it at birth, then it’s probably because they thought the mother was a whore.”

Actually if you read the CDC PInk Book Chapter on Hepatitis B you will know this is wrong. Many are infected in childhood either at birth or by fluid from others (saliva, blood, etc). It is a chronic infection in many areas and can be easily passed. Not as easy as Hepatitis A, but still not uncommon.

Why is no one answering my very simple questions about the vaccine stockpile? It represents a whole lot of unregulated vaccines, added into the mainstream at the behest of unknown individuals. Why should we assume they are safe? Why should we assume they are labeled correctly?

There is nothing to answer. Unless you have evidence for these claims, they are no more than what if’s. What if the moon were really made of cheese? Why should we assume it’s not? Why should we assume that it’s been correctly identified as rock?*

*A snickerdoodle to those who correctly answered “the scientific method”. Something people like Toto tend to forget.

The national stockpile of childhood vaccines is rotated out to the marketplace, to States and to the VFC program, in order to not “waste” (beyond their expiration dates) vaccines.

http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/42/Supplement_3/S125.full.pdf

The national stockpile of childhood vaccines, the States’ supply of those vaccines and the VFC vaccines supply are managed through computerized programs:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/vmbip/index.html

About that stockpile……

According to Dr. Orenstein (who worked for the CDC and implemented its 1986 major vaccine schedule change):

“For the longer term, we are working closely with the National Vaccine Advisory Committee to evaluate the reasons for the current supply problems and recommend solutions to prevent vaccine shortages.

Since 1983, CDC has been operating stockpiles of certain vaccines. These stockpiles are used to address short-term disruptions in the production of universally recommended vaccines.”
http://www.hhs.gov/asl/testify/t011127.html

SO WHAT is the National Vaccine Advisory Committee?

“The National Vaccine Advisory Committee was established in 1987 to comply with Title XXI of the Public Health Service Act (P.L. 99-660) (Section 2105) (42 U.S. Code 300aa-5 (PDF – 78 KB)). Its purpose is to advise and make recommendations to the Assistant Secretary for Health in his capacity as the Director of National Vaccine Program on matters related to program responsibilities. The Assistant Secretary for Health (ASH) has been designated by the Secretary of Health and Human Services as the Director of the National Vaccine Program.

Functions of NVAC

The National Vaccine Advisory Committee recommends ways to achieve optimal prevention of human infectious diseases through vaccine development, and provides direction to prevent adverse reactions to vaccines.

The functions of the NVAC as specified in the Public Health Service Act are to:

Study and recommend ways to encourage the availability of an adequate supply of safe and effective vaccination products in the States.”
http://www.hhs.gov/nvpo/nvac/

NOTICE that the stockpile was set up by the CDC in 1983. An oversight committee was not set up until 1987. THE MMR (and other vaccines) STOCKPILE WAS ACCESSED IN 1986. The cohort data used in the fraudulent Thompson report was from 1986 -2003.

Toto, I suspect you are using the word stockpile in an entirely different way to that used by NVSP. The intention of the stockpile is to have on hand 6 months supply of key pediatric vaccines. These are kept under appropriate storage conditions. It is not like they are just dumped in a warehouse on the floor.

There is no need for thiomersal as a preservative under such circumstances.

You can get more information from the paper that lilady linked to. Here it is again.

@Chris
“NOTICE that the stockpile was set up by the CDC in 1983. An oversight committee was not set up until 1987. THE MMR (and other vaccines) STOCKPILE WAS ACCESSED IN 1986. The cohort data used in the fraudulent Thompson report was from 1986 -2003.”

What went on from 1983 to 1986? Send me a link for that time period.

@ilady

Emphasis mine
“Vaccine Management Business Improvement Project (VMBIP)
The Vaccine Management Business Improvement Project (VMBIP) represents the collaborative efforts of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, participating state, local, and territorial immunization programs (“awardees”), and partner agencies to improve vaccine management processes, particularly for publicly-funded vaccine provided through the Vaccines for Children (VFC) Program. By improving vaccine order tracking, inventory visibility, fiscal and dosage accountability, and safety response capability across the supply chain at the federal, state, and local levels, VMBIP has enhanced our nation’s ability to prevent, mitigate, and respond to public health crises. THE PROJECT BEGAN IN LATE 2003, and since then, the following transformative improvements have been achieved: ”

Again:

“NOTICE that the stockpile was set up by the CDC in 1983. An oversight committee was not set up until 1987. THE MMR (and other vaccines) STOCKPILE WAS ACCESSED IN 1986. The cohort data used in the fraudulent Thompson report was from 1986 -2003.”

What went on from 1983 to 1986? Send me a link for that time period.

“The cohort data used in the fraudulent Thompson report was from 1986 -2003.”

Um, no. The DeStefano et al study was a case-series study with data from 1986-1993. Hooker, who is not an epidemiologist and not a medical statistician, managed through sleight of hand, to produce a fraudulent cohort study:

https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2014/08/22/brian-hooker-proves-andrew-wakefield-wrong-about-vaccines-and-autism/#comment-346507

Respectful Insolence used to have a higher grade of troll and sock puppets…I miss them.

Nice try Eli-lilady

I did read 2003, as the study was published in 2004. It is possible that the end date was referring to when they ended their research. HOWEVER, YOU KNOW THE POINT IS IRRELEVANT! The date that is significant IS 1986. Young children who could have received the stockpile vaccines. Please tell me, in 1986, did the lot number indicate that they were from the stockpile? I don’t believe they had their “supply chain” set up at that time.
DUH!

@Chris
Did you happen to read this BOMBSHELL affidavit? 2010?
It’s now 2014! What are they waiting for? I remember my big brother getting a case of the mumps when he was in middle school. They put a plaster of OATMEAL on the swollen area back then. I thought he looked funny! No one else in the family got it, and he recovered in a few days. There was no panic. LOL!
http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/2010-rabbit-info-suit.pdf

Toto, it strikes me that you are clutching at straws here. Why should the purpose of the national vaccine stockpile suddenly change because an oversight committee was established?

DeStefano et al. 2004 [note it is a) not a Thompson study – all Thompson would have done was verified diagnoses and b) it is not fraudulent – all we have so far is an unsubstantiated claim that significant information was not included] used a database of case children born between 1986 and 1993. These would have received their first MMR vaccination between 1987 and 1996 (except for a small group who may have been later). Control children would have been born between 1985 and 1994 and would have received their first MMR vaccination between 1986 and 1997.

So in fact, almost none of the cases in the paper would have received MMR from the stockpile in 1986.

As to Thompson’s letter to Gerberging, your link does not go there, but there is a copy here. There are numerous questions about the context of this letter. It has for example been published 10 years after it was written and the context given now might be quite wrong. It also doesn’t state there is any link between MMR and autism. The complaint in the letters is that Gerberding hasn’t responded to a congressman.

@Eli-lilady

Can’t you read? In Dr. Thompson’s letter, publicly released through his lawyer, he admits to scientific fraud and specifically refers to the African-American cohort IN THE FIRST PARAGRAPH!
DUH!
Throw in the “Dear Dr. Gerberding” letter for good measure!
http://www.morganverkamp.com/august-27-2014-press-release-statement-of-william-w-thompson-ph-d-regarding-the-2004-article-examining-the-possibility-of-a-relationship-between-mmr-vaccine-and-autism/
Why would he ruin his career now, over a report from 2004????????
He has been at the CDC since 1998. The only logical explanation is that HE IS TELLING THE TRUTH! He felt guilt because the autism rate had risen continually from 1993 through 2006. There was an alarming INCREASE EVERY YEAR. From 23% in 1993 to 1342% in 2006 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This coincided with the change in vaccine schedule.
The website below contains the graph with CDC data showing the exponential rise in autism rates:
http://www.thedailysheeple.com/did-you-know-1-in-6-children-has-a-developmental-disability-in-the-u-s_082014

Toto, Destefano et al. 2004 analyses African-Americans and published the results in their paper. Table 5 on p 263 if you wish to follow along. There was no significant increase in odds ratio for any MMR vaccination time: 0.83, 0.98 and 1.68.

What Thompson complained about being left out was an analysis for African-American boys at MMR prior to 36 months. There is a major issue with this. It would be one of hundreds of comparisons and if you slice and dice data sets small enough you are likely to find a significant result through chance alone. More importantly, there were only 45 cases that had first MMR vaccination between 24 and 36 months, 79% of these on average would be male and 39% African-American – leaving approximately 14 cases in the group. Quite a small number. So even if there had been a significant effect in the sample, it was unlikely to be meaningful.

Oh and there are lots of reasons why Thompson might have made comment now that had nothing to do with him telling the truth. He may be a) simply mistaken about the statistical analysis; b) upset at one of his bosses and wanting revenge; c) insane; d) been bought out by an anti-vaccination organisation; e) been influenced by someone significant in his life to do this, f) others.

lilady, whenever it has been suggested to me that there is a correlation between glyphosate use and various chronic disease I have always pointed out that we don’t know if there is a correlation between organic food consumption and autism.

Can’t you read? In Dr. Thompson’s letter, publicly released through his lawyer, he admits to scientific fraud frankly asserts that Wakefraud pulled a Pink Flamingos on him.

FTFY.

@Chris
“Why should the purpose of the national vaccine stockpile suddenly change because an oversight committee was established?”

WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT PURPOSE? Unmonitored, this could have been a way to bring in “special” vaccines to perform a “test within a test”.
Remember, the Simpsonwood doc. stated clearly what an “ideal study” would look like. Post 98. Overall, it could still operate as a legit stockpile.

AGAIN: “NOTICE that the stockpile was set up by the CDC in 1983. An OVERSIGHT committee was not set up until 1987. THE MMR (and other vaccines) STOCKPILE WAS ACCESSED IN 1986, after September 22, 1986, to be exact. Stockpile vaccines could easily been used into 1987, if there was a 6 month supply. No one has ever told me what the shelf life for the MMR would have been at that time. The cohort data used in the fraudulent Thompson report was from 1986 -1993 (?).”

How long before the MMR vaccine maker was shipping again, after the fire?
How long before the stockpile vaccines were actually used up? Who got them? Were they specially marked?
What went on from 1983 to 1986? Send me a link for that time period.

WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT PURPOSE? Unmonitored, this could have been a way to bring in “special” vaccines to perform a “test within a test”.

That would, by definition, be a change in the purpose of the stockpile. There is also no evidence anything like that happened.

AGAIN: “NOTICE that the stockpile was set up by the CDC in 1983. An OVERSIGHT committee was not set up until 1987. THE MMR (and other vaccines) STOCKPILE WAS ACCESSED IN 1986, after September 22, 1986, to be exact. Stockpile vaccines could easily been used into 1987, if there was a 6 month supply. No one has ever told me what the shelf life for the MMR would have been at that time. The cohort data used in the fraudulent Thompson report was from 1986 -1993 (?).”

Not far into 1987, given there was a maximum of 6 months supply. Once again, Destefano et al. 2004 was no a cohort study. It was a case-control study. Almost none of the cases would have been vaccinated by MMR prior to 1987. If the problem, as Thompson asserts, is with African-American boys vaccinated between 24 and 36 months of age, then none of those would have been vaccinated before the start of 1988 – and most a lot later.

You might end up with a haystack if you keep clutching at these straws.

Not sure where to put this thought… Given that Fraudytrousers and the wingnuts at AoA are so fond of erroneously comparing this “cover-up” to the Tuskagee syphilis experiment, how do they feel about their beloved vaccinated vs unvaccinated study, where one group of children would have proven beneficial treatments withheld, but wouldn’t know about it? Isn’t that *precisely* what happened in the Tuskagee experiment?

WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT PURPOSE? Unmonitored, this could have been a way to bring in “special” vaccines to perform a “test within a test”.

I thank you for finally being the one to concede, by your own “standards,” that the goal of all this fizzling activity was to try to start a Race War.*

Remember, Tex ran away. And wrote a book.

* Obviously not the genuine item.

@Toto:

WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT PURPOSE? Unmonitored, this could have been a way to bring in “special” vaccines to perform a “test within a test”.

Seriously? You’re starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist. Why would they do this in the first place? More to the point, how?

@Krebiozen:

I figured the only person who would notice would be you

I think I’ve mentioned this before, but I consider Will to be a pretty good read. Certainly more brisk than Meier Kahane, although The Story of the Jewish Defense League easily trumps all forms of Philip Roth.

I would liken Chaim Potok to Buzz Zaino if I weren’t simply hard-pressed to find sleep.

@Chris
Please stop your blathering! Anyone who can read will see that William Thompson admitted to committing scientific fraud in the first paragraph of the written statement released through his lawyer. According to Dr. Hooker, the protocol was ALREADY established (Thompson gave a copy of this to Hooker) and allowed for getting race data from BOTH birth certificates and school forms. The data regarding the African American boy cohort was dropped AFTER the results were calculated and indicated an undesirable result. This was done, for no protocol reason, by eliminating all individuals without a birth certificate. This effectively eliminated the African-American cohort. Dr. Hooker, who recorded his phone conversations with Dr. Thompson, said he indicated that the official protocol established that racial identity was contained in the school documents. In Georgia, it is legal to record a second party without their permission, as long as the person recording is in the conversation as well. Dr. Hooker can’t be Linda Tripped. The CDC released a statement saying that data had been dropped from the study.

Personally, I consider autism to be a syndrome, one cause being vaccine mercury poisoning (round 1-3mos.) which sets up weaknesses in the body that open it to adverse reactions to the vaccine itself. The brain and gut are most susceptible. The 1986-2000 MMR was given after the 3 mos. 1986-2000 Thimerosal filled vaccines, at about 18 mos. (This is discussed in the Simpsonwood paper) There is no “scientific test” for autism. One can, however, investigate for mercury poisoning and check the gut for vaccine virus, which can be identified by DNA.

Have you ever read this report?
http://www.autismus-ads-behandeln.ch/adhs-autismus/images/Richard%20Deth%20research.pdf

Hi Becky: The AoA wingnuts would gladly volunteer their children for a vax-vs-unvaxed study. They are that mentally unbalanced. CIA Parker comments on AoA and on other blogs that her preference is to have her child contract measles, mumps and rubella, rather than giving her child the MMR vaccine.

The Tuskegee study involved only black men who were already infected with the syphilis bacteria. There were antimicrobial drugs available to treat the disease, but they were not provided to the black men.

http://www.examiningtuskegee.com/faq.html

Mr. Fraudytrousers subjected his “study” subjects to painful, invasive and dangerous procedures that were not clinically indicated.

@Julian Frost
The legal means to do this are mentioned separately throughout the Simpsonwood paper. The stockpile, however, is never specifically mentioned. The CDC official who implemented the 1986 vaccine schedule, is the same person who was involved with the stockpile, at least in 1986, and was also the one who organized and attended the Simpsonwood meeting. Everything I have said is technically legal. There is no policy that forbids the individual steps. That is made clear in the Simpsonwood paper. Please don’t comment on this unless you have read the entire document.

Please stop your blathering! Anyone who can read will see that William Thompson admitted to frankly asserted that committing scientific fraud Wakefraud Flamingoed him.

I suppose you could always figure out some way in which Thompson was in a position to “commit” any “fraud” in the first place. Stick around, it’ll be fun. What do you think his role was as an author to start with?

Don’t give me any weird-ass jive about his splitting a customary trouser seam over ZOMG THERE’S A LAWYER TELLING ME HOW TO NOT F*CK THE F*CK UP regarding a document request.

Tell me what you think his specific role was.

Everything I have said is technically legal.

In the sense that it’s unlikely that any court would find you competent to stand trial, sure.

Anyone who can read will see that William Thompson admitted to committing scientific fraud in the first paragraph of the written statement released through his lawyer.

No he didn’t. He accused his co-authors of leaving out potential sub-group analysis. There was in fact a very good reason for leaving out that analysis, because the corresponding sub-group analysis because the corresponding group of girls would number about 4. So it was low numbers to start with and even if the original method indicated they would do the analysis by race and gender, it was clear once the data was sorted that this would be statistically pointless. Hence it wasn’t done. Thompson seems to have had to little statistical knowledge to understand that.

According to Dr. Hooker, the protocol was ALREADY established (Thompson gave a copy of this to Hooker) and allowed for getting race data from BOTH birth certificates and school forms.

In fact, this information would have been available in the data set that Hooker obtained from the CDC. Hooker didn’t follow the protocol, mind, because he treated it as a cohort study rather than a case-control study and analysed it using Fishers exact test, which would increase the likelihood of Type 1 errors.

The data regarding the African American boy cohort was dropped AFTER the results were calculated and indicated an undesirable result. This was done, for no protocol reason, by eliminating all individuals without a birth certificate. This effectively eliminated the African-American cohort.

A quick look at Destefano et al. 2004 shows that none of these accusations are true. My guess about what was dropped was the analysis by race and gender. It would have been dropped because the number of cases got too small in some sub-groups.

Dr. Hooker, who recorded his phone conversations with Dr. Thompson, said he indicated that the official protocol established that racial identity was contained in the school documents. In Georgia, it is legal to record a second party without their permission, as long as the person recording is in the conversation as well.

I am not sure whether you are correct about it being legal to record phone conversations in Georgia and cannot be bothered to check at the moment, but it is irrelevant because Hooker would not have been in Georgia when the phone calls were recorded.

@Chris

“That would, by definition, be a change in the purpose of the stockpile” Not really, the stockpile can perform as planned, at the same time. No law is broken. At that time, the Thimerosal content of the same vaccine schedule WAS NOT IDENTICAL. This is made clear in the Simpsonwood doc. The CDC showed no preference in purchasing vaccines with or without Thimerosal, when there was a choice. They only “encouraged” removing Thimerosal from childhood vaccines. It was voluntary. The CDC has never publicly acknowledged a connection between vaccines and autism.

“Not far into 1987, given there was a maximum of 6 months supply. Once again, Destefano et al. 2004 was no a cohort study. It was a case-control study. Almost none of the cases would have been vaccinated by MMR prior to 1987. If the problem, as Thompson asserts, is with African-American boys vaccinated between 24 and 36 months of age, then none of those would have been vaccinated before the start of 1988 – and most a lot later.”
Perhaps. If I remember correctly, when I looked at a freeze frame from Hooker’s video presentation of data, it seemed that this group had significant numbers before 24 months. This would be when they would have received a higher vaccine Thimerosal load. The stockpile did not just have MMR vaccine. Here’s how we solve this question:

Get the clinic(s) location of the deleted African American boys.
Get all the vaccine lot numbers/ID numbers for each boy’s vaccines through 36 mos.
Verify if the stockpiled vaccines were coded for that source.
If so, see if the children’s vaccine lot and ID code match for stockpiled vaccines. Is there a pattern?
IF THE STOCKPILED VACCINES WERE NOT MARKED AS SUCH, ask a lot more questions!
Otherwise, check vaccine mfg. for any irregularities. Note total Thimerosal load.
PROBLEM SOLVED!

Hooker didn’t follow the protocol, mind, because he treated it as a cohort study rather than a case-control study

I haven’t seen anything whatever that explains the leftover “odds ratio” in the abstract, which is to say, I haven’t ruled out the possibility of a fast one’s having been pulled in proofs.

@Lilady – Same principle then. Obviously they wouldn’t see it that way though.

Oh dear. I’ve just had a look over at AoA, and there’s a new post entitled “The Insanely Good Soul of Dr. Andrew Wakefield” by Kunt Heckenlively. And I thought satire was dead after Tony Blair got a “Philanthropist of the Year” award and Kissinger was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.

*Some people* seem to think they are the privileged few to have actually read those soooper secret transcripts from the Simpsonwood conference, when all the RI regulars have read the Conference transcripts, which are available on the internet:

http://en.wikipedia.org

/wiki/2000_Simpsonwood_CDC_conference

Now along comes yet another ignorant-of-basic science troll/sockie with a reading comprension problem who presumes to tell us he has found the smoking gun within the transcripts to justify disinterring the putrefying corpse of that long since buried dead equine.

Robert Kennedy, Jr., whose conspiracy theories and downright fabrications surrounding the Conference, had his kishkes handed to him when finally Salon.com removed Kennedy’s scurrilous article from the website, with this scathing rebuke directed at Kennedy and an apology to his readership:

http://www.salon.com/2011/01/16/dangerous_immunity/

Sunday, Jan 16, 2011 01:01 PM EDT

Correcting our record

We’ve removed an explosive 2005 report by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. about autism and vaccines. Here’s why

In 2005, Salon published online an exclusive story by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. that offered an explosive premise: that the mercury-based thimerosal compound present in vaccines until 2001 was dangerous, and that he was “convinced that the link between thimerosal and the epidemic of childhood neurological disorders is real.”

The piece was co-published with Rolling Stone magazine — they fact-checked it and published it in print; we posted it online. In the days after running “Deadly Immunity,” we amended the story with five corrections (which can still be found logged here) that went far in undermining Kennedy’s exposé. At the time, we felt that correcting the piece — and keeping it on the site, in the spirit of transparency — was the best way to operate. But subsequent critics, including most recently, Seth Mnookin in his book “The Panic Virus,” further eroded any faith we had in the story’s value. We’ve grown to believe the best reader service is to delete the piece entirely.

Kerry Lauerman

Kennedy, still licking his wounds, and not content to just let the matter lie, has embarked on a reckless venture, by paying Brian Hooker to do research for a book, which has already been reviewed by multiple science bloggers and journalists who have described his book as lacking credibility.

Toto, just SHUT THE HELL UP for two seconds.

The person who is MAKING an extraordinary claim – such as, well, ANY of the claims you have made here – THAT PERSON is the one who’s obligated to show extraordinary EVIDENCE for their claim.

It’s not on everyone else to prove that some wild possibility from your imagination DIDN’T happen.

Period. So shut off the smug faucet.

@Chris
QUIT LYING.
“He accused his co-authors of leaving out potential sub-group analysis. There was in fact a very good reason for leaving out that analysis, because the corresponding sub-group analysis because the corresponding group of girls would number about 4. So it was low numbers to start with and even if the original method indicated they would do the analysis by race and gender, it was clear once the data was sorted that this would be statistically pointless. Hence it wasn’t done.”

It is clear from the Dear Dr. Gerberding letter that the paper was ORIGINALLY to be presented with the alarming African-American statistics INTACT and they would link the MMR vaccine to autism. It’s in the first paragraph. Those were the only statistics that clearly demonstrated the alleged link. When they were removed after this letter was written, statistically there remained no demonstrable link. That is the outcome published in the 2004 paper.

“There was in fact a very good reason for leaving out that analysis, because the corresponding sub-group analysis because the corresponding group of girls would number about 4. So it was low numbers to start with..”
REALLY? Dr. Thompson destroyed his CDC career (since 1998), reputation, and paycheck for that bit of data? HA HA HA HA HA !
TEN YEARS AFTER THE FACT? HA HA HA HA!

Here’s a tip. Finally, many (but not all) childhood vaccines are available without Thimerosal, but check out the flue shots. Now they want to give them yearly to very young children, and even pregnant women. REALLY?
See table three.
http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228#t3

Not really, the stockpile can perform as planned, at the same time. No law is broken.

But this makes no sense. If you want someone to accept this might have gone on, you need to provide a rationale for it to happen. Just because you can’t find a law against it, does not mean it happens.

Perhaps. If I remember correctly, when I looked at a freeze frame from Hooker’s video presentation of data, it seemed that this group had significant numbers before 24 months. This would be when they would have received a higher vaccine Thimerosal load.

May be you should read Thompson’s letter. He specifically states prior to 36 months. The paper analyses 3 groups, with one being those first vaccinated between 24 and 36 months. Those vaccinated before 24 months would have been in a separate group. If something was happening there and not between 24 months and 36 months, Thompson would not have specifically stated prior to 36 months.

Also, Thompsons’s comment was about MMR, not thimerosal.

As a said before, you have clutched at so many straws you could build a haystack. And I might add have got Thompson’s comments wrong and failed to grasp what DeStefano et al. 2004 or Hooker did in their analyses. Perhaps you should give up?

@Ant-house
I am sure you think you are at a public meeting where you can use your highly trained facilitator skills to control the audience.
NEWS FLASH! This is the internet. DREAM ON.

If what I post has no merit, it would be obvious to all, and I would be ignored. I have already clearly laid out how to prove/disprove my theory. How is that outrageous? The information ABSOLUTELY should be available to the taxpayers who pay for the mystery vaccines, AND BEAR ALL LIABILITY. We have an UNACCOUNTED FOR GAP, and I want to know why? I want to know why African-American boys show such an AMAZINGLY disproportionate rate of autism, JUST BECAUSE OF SKIN COLOR? I am proposing a plausible reason for this alarming statistic from this study. That “1 in 48 boys” CDC quoted autism rate ISN’T JUST AFRICAN AMERICANS, AT ALL. Why wasn’t the WHITE MALE COHORT in this study higher? Something stinks.

It is clear from the Dear Dr. Gerberding letter that the paper was ORIGINALLY to be presented with the alarming African-American statistics INTACT and they would link the MMR vaccine to autism. It’s in the first paragraph.

There is no mention of African-Americans in the first paragraph of the letter.

Those were the only statistics that clearly demonstrated the alleged link. When they were removed after this letter was written, statistically there remained no demonstrable link.

Actually, there are other statistically significant differences reported in the DeStefano et al. 2004 paper. You really should read the paper before making more mistakes about what is in it.

REALLY? Dr. Thompson destroyed his CDC career (since 1998), reputation, and paycheck for that bit of data? HA HA HA HA HA !
TEN YEARS AFTER THE FACT? HA HA HA HA!

Strangely, it really does seem so. Although he may have been influenced in that by others.

Here’s a tip. Finally, many (but not all) childhood vaccines are available without Thimerosal, but check out the flue shots. Now they want to give them yearly to very young children, and even pregnant women. REALLY?

This is relevant in what way exactly?

Oh I know, it is all about thiomersal, despite their being no evidence. It is yet another straw.

Lastly, writing in all caps makes you appear like a swivel-eyed loon.

Here’s a tip. Finally, many (but not all) childhood vaccines are available without Thimerosal, but check out the flue shots. Now they want to give them yearly to very young children, and even pregnant women. REALLY?
See table three.

* Sees table 3 *

OK, I’m seeing a whole lot of zeros. And I was bummed out that the clinic didn’t have the quadrivalent last year. Have you been reduced to the absurd position of complaining that there are seasonal “flue” shots available with Demonosal?

@ChrisP, et al
You obviously didn’t get it the first time, nor did you read the Simpsonwood TRANSCRIPT. THAT IS KEY. The document itself has never been discredited.
A key point: a “study” can be done on 2 levels simultaneously. The public one does not necessarily measure the same thing as the hidden one. This is done all the time in high stakes academic testing. They are called “strands”, a test within a test.

“Let’s revisit a CDC event stealthily held just outside of Atlanta in Gwinnett County at a RELIGIOUS (Methodist) retreat center in 2000:

What I want to know is if the “ideal” scientific study to track Thimerosal effect in vaccines, as described below by Dr. Rhodes, WAS ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTED, using the African-American Atlanta cohort fraudulently deleted from the 2004 paper by Thompson and DeStephano. NOTE: DeStephano was a presenter at this meeting. Dr. Orenstein, WHO IMPLEMENTED THE NEW VACCINE SCHEDULE, was at this meeting as well. The 2004 study data was from 1986-2003. Was this pre-planned? The African American babies selected to receive the HIGH dose? The dosage, manufacturer, and clinic location ARE tracked. Specific vaccine lots could be strategically placed. PLEASE CHECK THIS CO-HORT. Dr. Hooker was given the original statistics.

http://skeptico.blogs.com/Simpsonwood_Transcript.pdf

Scientific Review of Vaccine Safety Datalink Information June 7-8, 2000
Simpsonwood Retreat Center
Norcross, Georgia

Philip Rhodes, a Statistician in the National Immunization Program.

Dr. Rhodes

“What would one want? One would want somehow within a situation where there is comparable ascertainment, you would like kids who got very low level, 0 to 25, whatever micrograms of Thimerosal, versus those that got 75 or 100, but to have the same number of vaccinations. That they are equally vaccinated, but because of policy differences or manufacturer differences, have big difference in Thimerosal usage• But also in which you have equal ascertainment, and that may be rough. Getting both of those at the same time may be very, very difficult.”

Toto – forgive me for asking, but could you just explain again where the connection is between Thimerosal and MMR please? I missed that bit.

“Let’s revisit a CDC event stealthily held just outside of Atlanta in Gwinnett County at a RELIGIOUS (Methodist) retreat center in 2000

Did you miss the part where you’ve already been roundly mocked for this full-caps absurdity, in addition to the fevered kinetics that led to your sustained inability to even figure out how to spell the lead author’s name?

Toto, it has already been explained to you that the study data was not from 1986 – 2003. It has also been explained why.

The fact that you refuse to accept this just demonstrates your ignorance about the study. A quick look at the methods would show.

Also all this harping on thiomersal is irrelevant. Thiomersal was never in MMR. The study only assessed MMR.

Also once again, it was not a cohort study, but a case-control study. Due to your colossal ignorance over other aspects of the study, I am not expecting you to understand the difference. However, your continuing to make this mistake after being reminded several times that it is a mistake does not help your argument.

@ Toto

The 1986-2000 MMR was given after the 3 mos. 1986-2000 Thimerosal filled vaccines.

One last time:
There is no thimerosal in MMR vaccines. There never was.

If you have evidence of the contrary, please enlighten us.

@NORAD

Just why was the CDC so concerned about removing Thimerosal from vaccines anyway? Or the manufacturers? Flat out, it costs much more $$$$$$$$. It has a shorter shelf life without it. The total Thimerosal load per infant vaccine schedule has dramatically shrunk since the Simpsonwood meeting in 2000 (if the child gets all Thimerosal free ones) Yet, the autism rate from 1993 – 2006 continued to skyrocket; from 23% increase to over 1300%! It seems that as Thimerosal levels in infant vaccines began to gradually drop, there was a big marketing push for flu shots that overlapped. In general, these contained Thimerosal, were distributed widely, and administered YEARLY. There is now a push to mandate them for young children and pregnant women. Hence, the continued upward curve.

I’ll be damned if I can figure out what this was about.

Oh dear, that was painful to read. On the upside, letters like that to the editor are only going to validate the choice to withdraw the paper.

Toto’s comments serve a valuable purpose to demonstrate what constitutes anti-vaxxer “research”. I like the name-calling too, so 7 year-old.

@Helianthus

I admit the wording is awkward, but if you read it carefully, that is NOT what I said. First, all the vaccines were separate. Where is your documentation showing that they contained no Thimerosal. Next they were combined to make the MMR. Where is your documentation to show there is no Thimerosal. Next they produced a MMR ll. Where is your documentation to show it does not contain Thimerosal IN ANY FORM. I am not saying you are wrong, I just want to see proof. No one ever answered my question about dead vaccines. If the polio vaccine is dead, why doesn’t it contain Thimerosal to kill bacteria and add to the shelf life? Answer that if you can. Thanks.

You forget, it is non-scientists such as myself that must carry full liability for these vaccines. If I don’t thoroughly investigate their safety MYSELF, MY CHILD AND I WILL HAVE TO LIVE WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF A BAD VACCINE REACTION. Obviously, they are not safe, or the manufacturers would carry the liability.
So stuff it.

@Toto

Where is your documentation showing that they contained no Thimerosal. Next they were combined to make the MMR. Where is your documentation to show there is no Thimerosal. Next they produced a MMR ll. Where is your documentation to show it does not contain Thimerosal IN ANY FORM.

Oh, dear. Perhaps a simple explanation would suffice? Thimerosal is a preservative. It acts by killing viruses, bacteria and fungi that might otherwise contaminate a vaccine. The MMR uses “live” weakened virus. If it contained thimerosal, the viral particles would be “killed” and the vaccine rendered useless. If you cannot understand that, then I have no idea what else will convince you.

Now, you are making the claim that MMR (and the separate measles, mumps and rubella vaccines before that) contains thimerosal. Show your evidence that that was the case.

Toto,

Here’s how we solve this question:

Get the clinic(s) location of the deleted African American boys.
Get all the vaccine lot numbers/ID numbers for each boy’s vaccines through 36 mos.
Verify if the stockpiled vaccines were coded for that source.
If so, see if the children’s vaccine lot and ID code match for stockpiled vaccines. Is there a pattern?
IF THE STOCKPILED VACCINES WERE NOT MARKED AS SUCH, ask a lot more questions!
Otherwise, check vaccine mfg. for any irregularities. Note total Thimerosal load.
PROBLEM SOLVED!

Well there you go then 🙂
We’ll eagerly wait for your published results.

“Toto, it has already been explained to you that the study data was not from 1986 – 2003. It has also been explained why.”
My research said 2003. It is irrelevant. My hypothesis only concerns the 1986 date. I am proposing a test within a test. It is measuring for Thimerosal, NOT MMR.
DUH.
Why do you assume people are honest and patriotic?
The scientific evidence is against you.

@gayest
“We’ll eagerly wait for your published results.”
I plan to drive over to the CDC and ask Dr. Thompson myself.
I certainly won’t post the results for free on this blog.

@Odd W.

That’s good for MMRll. Now what about the others, plain old MMR and the original individual doses?

That’s good for MMRll. Now what about the others, plain old MMR and the original individual doses?

In what way do they differ that they would also need thiomersal? Can you understand what the function of the preservative is and the type of vaccine you are talking about? Todd explained this rather succinctly. Why are you asking others to do your work for you? Did this issue not come up during the course of your “research”?

“Thimerosal is a preservative. It acts by killing viruses, bacteria and fungi that might otherwise contaminate a vaccine. The MMR uses “live” weakened virus. If it contained thimerosal, the viral particles would be “killed” and the vaccine rendered useless.”

So why would one inject this cr*p into the veins of a newborn? No safety studies have ever been done on ETHYLMERCURY injected into human babies. It absolutely kills neurons.

Also, what is keeping the MMR “safe” from the same kinds of contaminates?

“Why are you asking others to do your work for you? Did this issue not come up during the course of your “research””

This IS part of my research, asking the EXPERTS like you Science Mom. MMR ll didn’t exist in 1986. I haven’t been able to find data on the old MMR. How about you?

So why would one inject this cr*p into the veins of a newborn? No safety studies have ever been done on ETHYLMERCURY injected into human babies. It absolutely kills neurons.

Vaccines aren’t administered intravenously. There are plenty of studies to demonstrate that there isn’t any harm. Go through the search function here or just read some of the recent Thompson/Hooker posts and there are substantial discussions in the comments section.

Also, what is keeping the MMR “safe” from the same kinds of contaminates?

Why are you concerning yourself with stockpiled vaccines when you don’t even grasp the most rudimentary aspects of biologics? Single dose injectors that’s how.

Also, what is keeping the MMR “safe” from the same kinds of contaminates?

Toto,

If what I post has no merit, it would be obvious to all, and I would be ignored. I

Meaningless drivel, is how I would describe it. Why would we leave misinformation unchallenged?

I’ve read the Simpsonwood transcript and see nothing suspicious or worrying there at all. On the contrary, I was glad to see scientists going out on a limb to discuss what possible ways thimerosal in vaccines could theoretically damage children, and what we would expect to see if it did. Of course this has been seized upon as admissions that thimerosal actually does cause these theoretical problems.

The passage Toto has fixated on is a discussion of the Verstraeten study and its shortcomings. There is nothing sinister there at all. I find it hilarious how the Simpsonwood transcript has been so ridiculously misinterpreted.

Just why was the CDC so concerned about removing Thimerosal from vaccines anyway? Or the manufacturers? Flat out, it costs much more $$$$$$$$.

As the AAP has stated in this paper (PDF) published by the AAP last year (forgive the repetition, but it is apparently necessary):

Had the evidence that is available now been available in 1999, the policy reducing thimerosal use would likely have not been implemented. Furthermore, in 2008 the World Health Organization (WHO) endorsed the use of thimerosal in vaccines.

Also:

You forget, it is non-scientists such as myself that must carry full liability for these vaccines. If I don’t thoroughly investigate their safety MYSELF, MY CHILD AND I WILL HAVE TO LIVE WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF A BAD VACCINE REACTION.

Scientists don’t have children, nieces, nephews or grandchildren? My son spent weeks in the hospital with whooping cough as a direct result of people not vaccinating their children because of a false vaccine scare. He lived, luckily, but dozens didn’t. How many people have vaccines killed in recent years?

Anyway, what makes you think you are capable of investigating vaccine safety? You would need several years of education to understand the first thing about the subject, judging from what you have posted here.

Let me see if I’ve got Toto’s notion straight:

There was a vaccine stockpile created to ensure continuity of vaccination in case of interruption of the pipeline. Somehow there was no supervision whatsoever of this stockpile for years so nefarious CDC scientists (but I repeat myself) sneaked in and adulterated some of the MMR with high doses of Thimerosal. Providentially (cue dramatic music) there was a fire in a vaccine manufacturing plant, giving them their opportunity to conduct an unethical experiment. Vials of MMR were shipped out, the high-T vials being labelled “For African-American boys only” and the low-T ones being labelled “For girls and non-African-Americans only”. Pediatricians across the nation obediently injected each child from the correct vial, and not one of them made a peep about it because they were all participants in the highly secret study. In 2003, the highly secret study was completed and the effects on African-American boys were identified. However, the results of the highly secret experiment that involved every pediatrician in America were immediately suppressed until Dr. Thompson bravely stepped forth to announce what every pediatrician in America already knew although they all lie about it.

Does that correctly sum up Toto’s notions?

@Science Mom
“There are plenty of studies to demonstrate that there isn’t any harm.”
Citations please. I haven’t found any. They are all for methyl mercury. One cannot just assume they react the same. If you bothered to read the Simpsonwood transcript, you would know that the experts assembled there said there were NONE.

‘Vaccines aren’t administered intravenously.”
Technically, I guess you are right….unless you get an old shaky-handed nurse. It does all end up in the bloodstream however, and across the blood-brain barrier.

If thimerosal “absolutely kills neurons”, why aren’t the sites of intramuscular injection of thimerosal-containing vaccines permanently paralyzed?

Citations please. I haven’t found any. They are all for methyl mercury. One cannot just assume they react the same. If you bothered to read the Simpsonwood transcript, you would know that the experts assembled there said there were NONE.

Do your own work. You came here with both barrels blazing remember? I told you where to find discussions here, search. I read Simpsonwood and am with Krebiozen’s assessment. Besides, note the date of Simpsonwood, has time and scientific research somehow stood still?

Technically, I guess you are right….unless you get an old shaky-handed nurse. It does all end up in the bloodstream however, and across the blood-brain barrier.

Add anatomy, physiology and pharmacokinetics to the long list of things you don’t know but should.

Science Mom, you are full of hot air and just spout assertions.
Obviously, the plain old MMR seems to be hidden from sight. Why? You forget that the Simpsonwood document is absolutely relevant, because they were describing vaccines (and Thimerosal content) that were in use with some of the earlier cohort/case studies used in the 2004 report. They made it clear that the same vaccine delivered in different ways could affect the Thimerosal content by as much as 25 micrograms. A slight change in the vaccine schedule (like getting the Thimerosal filled HepB shot at birth) could add an extra 12.5 micrograms. Some vaccines are available with or without Thimerosal. If you actually read the Simpsonwood Transcript, and aren’t lying, THEN GOD HELP YOUR SOUL.

They made it clear that the same vaccine delivered in different ways could affect the Thimerosal content by as much as 25 micrograms.

Um wut?

Obviously, the plain old MMR seems to be hidden from sight. Why?

WTF are you going on about? What do you even mean “hidden from sight”? WTF is “plain old MMR”?

A slight change in the vaccine schedule (like getting the Thimerosal filled HepB shot at birth) could add an extra 12.5 micrograms.

Yeah so? Simpsonwood’s purpose was to examine this and then and since then, found to be moot.

Some vaccines are available with or without Thimerosal.

All paediatric vaccines are thiomersal-free, most flu vaccines are thiomersal-free and recommended for children and pregnant women. Thiomersal has been removed from several countries several years ago and yet ASD prevalence continues to rise so what you are drumming on about IN ALL CAPS is beyond me.

I think you would make an excellent addition to the Thinking Moms’ Revolution; you should check them out. Do you drink?

Toto, don’t go around talking abound things that might have happened. You might be responsible for any number of unsolved murders. We deal with what the evidence shows has happened.

@Kreepycitizen
‘Anyway, what makes you think you are capable of investigating vaccine safety? You would need several years of education to understand the first thing about the subject, judging from what you have posted here.”

You make an interesting point. In the U.S., one must have informed consent before subjecting a healthy child to a medical procedure carrying RISK. If the average American cannot properly ascertain the risk for a vaccine, how can they make this decision at all? If the SCIENTISTS know all the risks, and deem vaccines SAFE, why don’t the pharmaceutical companies they work for CARRY THE LIABILITY FOR THEIR PRODUCT?
Enigmas.

Hey Twato if you want your questions answered, you may want to adopt a different tactic.

@Gay Falcon

There HAS been a crime. One of the criminals has confessed. Legitimate data, EXPOSING ANOTHER CRIME, was removed. The resulting fraudulent report was submitted for peer review.
The removed data is a CLUE. No one has acknowledged the elephant in the room. The latest autism rate for boys is 1 in 48. I have not heard that the majority of that rate is African American. MANY of those kids are white. Yet, the original statistics showed a 340% increase in probability?/rate? among African American boys. The white boys were MUCH lower, such that their rate was considered to be insignificant. Something is wrong with this spread. How can dark skin account for this? The study makes assumptions on vaccines given BEFORE the MMR. Was the Thimerosal load equally ignored and ONLY the MMR considered? If so, this could explain the GAP. Perhaps this data was intended to be extracted all along. It is possible. It is hinted at in the Simpsonwood quote. That is where I got the idea to begin with. The mechanics are all there.

“Twato”
I like it. Science Mom, if you had the answers, you would have given them. Nice try though.

@-dam Geeeee!
If you are speaking, you should yell a little louder! I CAN’T HEAR YOU!

Seriously, with all of these LAME digital monikers, I can’t help but make fun.
At least mine has some spunk:

@ AdamG, I think Toto is gunning for suicide by mod given her epic ignorance of what is even in vaccines, let alone how to evaluate scientific studies. It’s got to be embarrassing.

Toto: “That’s good for MMRll. Now what about the others, plain old MMR and the original individual doses”

There is no more “plain old MMR.”. In 1971 Merck introduced a measles, mumps and rubella vaccine with specific strains of each virus. The mumps strain was “Jeryl Lynn” named after the child who provided the sample, the main researcher/developer’s daughter.

In 1978 Merck decided use an improved rubella vaccine strain, which resulted in MMR II.

There has never been any thimerosal in any MMR vaccine. It comes as a dry powder plug that is mixed with sterile water and must be used within eight hours.

What’s the point in giving answers to questions that don’t even make sense? “How can you PROVE that this elaborate bait-and-switch conspiracy scenario that I pulled out of my ass didn’t happen???” We don’t have to, gnoron; the person MAKING the extraordinary claim is the one who needs to provide extraordinary evidence. Until you do, you’re walking around with your underpants on your head, thinking you’re Beau Brummel.

The ignorant troll needs to get off the internet and do what It promised to do, upstream at # 211

“I plan to drive over to the CDC and ask Dr. Thompson myself.
I certainly won’t post the results for free on this blog.”

Toto: If the average American cannot properly ascertain the risk for a vaccine, how can they make this decision at all?

Well, some people (unlike you) passed high school biology, or at least can understand the way vaccines work. Some people can’t afford to stay home with sick kids, and some people have parents/grandparents who had bad experiences with VPDs. There’s a lot of things that go into risk assessment.
Granted, Americans are getting dumber, but not as dumb as you and AOA would like.

As for name-calling, welp, you could do that WITHOUT being a jerk-ass homophobe, but that ship has sailed.

@Chris
Thank you kindly for your enlightening answer. So, are you really saying that the MMR ll is just like THOSE AMAZING SEA MONKEYS? Freeze dried- add water and WATCH THEM MAGICALLY COME TO LIFE? I had absolutely no idea!

However, I am afraid I have some bad news about Jeryl Lynn copyright. It seems that after ALL those years, she is feeling pretty run down. Perhaps a J.L. 3 is in the cards? Of course, she does her best to keep a stiff upper lip. She never lets on about how sick she really is. But those close to her–they know. I think it would be best if she has a nice loooooong R&R, all expenses paid of course. Hopefully her pet rabbit will keep her company. Perhaps a younger, stronger Jeryl Lynn can take her place and continue to bear the burden of the world. But of course, it won’t be cheap. I’ll leave you to read the sad, sad tale of Jeri for yourselves….
http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/2010-rabbit-info-suit.pdf

Antaeus Feldspar: “What’s the point in giving answers to questions that don’t even make sense?”

Actually my explanation was not for her. It was just a general explanation as a way how she is so far off the mark. I knew she was in outfield when I asked her to give me a link and page number of the Simpsonwood documents that showed the HepB was given to infants in the 1980s, and all she did was some random quote with no year mentioned.

See what I mean? She has really jumped off the edge of reality.

Also the Jeryl Lynn is still the safest mumps strain, as noted with the attempted replacement with the cheaper Urabe strain elsewhere on this planet.

Toto- like many critics- doesn’t GET that SBM doesn’t hinge on the results of one study but instead, on the MANY studies that make up the state of knowledge currently.

If MMR affected black children differently than it did white children, it would show up in other studies -some done by the CDC, including one from 2014 that included 14 areas not one city- and others from places not under the CDC.

In other news:
Heckenlively writes about Andy’s “Insanely good soul”; John Stone remarks that the DeStefano study was meant to contradict AJW at the time of the plot against him.

Oh, and continuing to try to bring in some reality: even getting mumps itself does not always work for immunity. I had it twice, and apparently that was not uncommon in the 1960s. The prevailing myth was then was if you got it on one side, you could get it on the other side.

It is not reasonable to expect a vaccine to both be safe and confer better immunity than the disease.

@Politicalguineapig (waaay too many letters)

“As for name-calling, welp, you could do that WITHOUT being a jerk-ass homophobe, but that ship has sailed.”

Please chill. I do wordplay. What is wrong with “gay”?
It means HAPPY!.
Let Pharrell put you in a better mood…

-btw- ‘toto’ IIRC is a Kikuyu word ( Kenya) that refers to small, male children. ( from Isaak Dinesen- and she would know things like this)

Well, it’s easy to spot the Merck employees on this board. Do you get paid overtime? I guess $4 billion goes a long way. Not bad pay for enduring a case of the mumps.
I would like to see a jury trial though. I could REALLY do some vaccine research then.

Have you developed a vaccine for whistleblowers yet?
I am sure it would be another billion dollar hit!

When is the Troll going to get in Its car to drive over to the CDC to speak with William Thompson?

@ Be-nice

Do you get paid to make your posts? Someone needs to get their money back. Tell them Toto is available for hire. This blog obviously needs a little livening up.
Thanks!

Toto: What is wrong with “gay”? It means HAPPY!

Not only do you not understand biology, you don’t get English. Yes, in the dictionary, it does mean happy, but we both know that’s not what you mean. And the dictionary definition hasn’t been used for a loooong time.

@illady
“When is the Troll going to get in Its car to drive over to the CDC to speak with William Thompson?”

Is this a trick question?

@Politicalguineapig

“Don we now our gay apparel”
I sing it every year. Do you have a problem with Christmas carols?
Yea. I thought so. A Christ denier.
I hope you enjoy roasting marshmallows.

Toto,

A slight change in the vaccine schedule (like getting the Thimerosal filled HepB shot at birth) could add an extra 12.5 micrograms.

I’m wondering if you understand what a tiny amount this is. Do you know how much a single drop of water weighs?

“Also the Jeryl Lynn is still the safest mumps strain”
As in 20% effective?

Where did all the mumps go Toto? Why has incidence fallen by 99% in every country the vaccine is in routine use?

Toto:

@gayest
“We’ll eagerly wait for your published results.”
I plan to drive over to the CDC and ask Dr. Thompson myself.
I certainly won’t post the results for free on this blog.

Can you explain what my alleged sexual preference (or if you are using the archaic term, my cheerfulness) has to with lightheartedly recommending you do your own research instead of demanding answers you like to your increasingly implausible questions from a group of “lame monikers” on an internet forum? I’m confused.

Also, what in my single comment on you made me stand out as the epitome of particular sexual identity (or expression of emotion) and deserved a superlative?

I also don’t really understand why you keep asking for and expecting others to deliver answers on this forum if you yourself, should you get to meet Dr. Thompson and all was made clear, already have refused to share?

Orac, you need to go shopping at a better troll farmer. This one clearly was not ready to be picked, yet.

Toto: My point about English stands, and it’s irrelevant to my religious beliefs. But, frankly, considering the Christians in my country, I’d rather go to hell then spend eternity with sanctimonious, sour-faced fundies. I prefer to have fun.
And no wonder you don’t understand science.

I wonder if Toto is part of the Drinking Moms Revolution? She should perhaps have someone else drive her to the CDC.

@Kreepy Ozone

Yes. Just like Curare. A little goes a long way.
Didn’t you read Jaryl Lynn’s Dad’s warning, from 1991, about the potential danger of the cumulative ethyl mercury load with an increased infant vaccine schedule?
Please post all the safety research for use of ethyl mercury in children. I haven’t seen any. Do not try to substitute methyl mercury.
Money first!

Toto, you declared, quite definitively, that the oral polio vaccine came out before the injected version. Less than thirty seconds of searching online would have shown you otherwise. If you can’t even get basic facts right, why should we trust you?

“Where did all the mumps go Toto? Why has incidence fallen by 99% in every country the vaccine is in routine use?”

Good question. The bubonic plague wiped out large number in the Middle Ages. They never created a vaccine for it. Where did it go? Oh it is still around, but I haven’t seen a third of the population die from it lately, have you? Now we just PATENT it and weaponize it. Do you know who owns the Ebola patent? If you get sick from it, you have to pay royalties…..

Does this coincide with the lawsuit claims?
Here’s a recent vaccinated mumps outbreak:
“State and local health departments, in collaboration with CDC, continue to investigate a mumps outbreak that began in New York in June 2009. The index case occurred in a boy aged 11 years who had returned on June 17 from a trip to the United Kingdom, where approximately 7,400 reports of laboratory-confirmed mumps were received by the Health Protection Agency in 2009. He then attended a New York summer camp for tradition-observant Jewish boys, where he became symptomatic on June 28. Subsequently, other camp attendees and a staff member were reported to have mumps, and transmission continued in multiple locations when the camp attendees returned home. As of January 29, 2010, a total of 1,521 cases had been reported, with onset dates from June 28, 2009, through January 29, 2010, a substantial increase from the 179 cases reported as of October 30, 2009. The outbreak has remained confined primarily to the tradition-observant Jewish community, with <3% of cases occurring among persons outside the community. The largest percentage of cases (61%) has occurred among persons aged 7-18 years, and 76% of the patients are male. Among the patients for whom vaccination status was reported, 88% had received at least 1 dose of mumps-containing vaccine, and 75% had received 2 doses. This is the largest mumps outbreak that has occurred in the United States since 2006. Although mumps vaccination alone was not sufficient to prevent this outbreak, maintaining high measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccination coverage remains the most effective way to prevent outbreaks and limit their size when they occur."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20150887

@Gray Davis (is that a politically correct insult?)

Actually, my mistake was a compliment to vaccine makers.
My oldest started out with the OPO and only the youngest got the IPO. Silly me. I assumed that this was progress! I remember getting my OPO on a sugar cube when I was in kindergarten. It seemed to me that a dead injectable virus would be safer, and would have a longer shelf life.
A logical conclusion, but not accurate. But of course, you all continually LIE on this board, so I guess we are even.

To anyone who thinks Toto has a point in #262 (both of them): The mumps vaccine is effective. I noticed you failed to list the percent of the general population that was vaccinated. Consider the following. A vaccine is 95% effective. Out of ten thousand people, 99% get the vaccine. Disease breaks out:
9900*95% = 9405 are protected from the disease
495 vaccinated get the disease
100 unvaccinated get the disease
So you have a situation where 83% of those who get the disease are vaccinated, even though the vaccine is extremely effective.

Oh [bubonic plague] is still around, but I haven’t seen a third of the population die from it lately, have you?

Hey, Toto got something right! Bubonic plague is still around. But, sadly, she fails to do any work to figure out why people are not dropping dead of it. Unlike in the Middle Ages, we now have these things called antibiotics. And it turns out they work quite well against Yersinia pestis, the bacterium that causes the plague. They work so well, in fact, that there is currently no need to develop a vaccine. We are also much better at keeping exposure risks down (not a whole lot of flea-ridden mice and rats scurrying through your sleeping quarters on a daily basis these days).

Oh, and for those keeping score, note that I, a pro-vaccine individual, am saying there’s no need for a bubonic plague vaccine.

The HbPV is Haemophilus b Conjugate Vaccine. It was not listed on the table.

No, you’re just so shockingly stupid that you can’t read it. What do you think ACTHib, Hiberix, and PedvaxHIB are?

Toto is someone who can say ” Do you know who owns the Ebola patent? If you get sick from it, you have to pay royalties….” and “Actually, my mistake was a compliment to vaccine makers.” with a straight face. I’m starting to see why everyone thinks she’s drunk.

Toto,

Please post all the safety research for use of ethyl mercury in children. I haven’t seen any.

You haven’t looked very hard, have you? Here are several studies that look at the toxicity of thimerosal. Some are reviews with links to other studies I haven’t included here. This isn’t a gishgallop, you asked for this.

Axton JMH. Six cases of poisoning after a parenteral organic mercurial compound (merthiolate). Postgrad Med J 1972;48:417-421.
Ball LK, Ball R, Pratt RD. An assessment of thimerosal use in childhood vaccines. Pediatrics 2001;1147-1154.
Blair AMJN, Clark B, Clarke, AJ, Wood, P. Tissue Concentrations of Mercury after Chronic Dosing of Squirrel Monkeys with Thimerosal. Toxicology 1975;3:171-1766.
Cox NH, Forsyth A. Thimerosal allergy and vaccination reactions. Contact Dermatitis 1988;18:229-233.
Fagan DG, Pritchard JS, Clarkson TW, Greenwood MR. Organ mercury levels in infants with omphaloceles treated with organic mercurial antiseptic. Arch Dis Child 1977;52:962-964.
Goncalo M, Figueiredo A, Goncalo S. Hypersensitivity to thimerosal: the sensitivity moiety. Contact Dermatitis 1996;34:201-203.
IOM (Institute of Medicine). Thimerosal-containing vaccines and neurodevelopmental disorders. Washington DC: National Academy Press; 2001.
Magos L, Brown AW, Sparrow S, Bailey E, Snowden RT, Skipp WR. The comparative toxicology of ethyl- and methylmercury. Arch Toxicol 1985,57:260-267.
Matheson DS, Clarkson TW, Gelfand EW. Mercury toxicity (acrodynia) induced by long-term injection of gammaglobulin. J Pediatr 1980: 97:153-155Moller H. All these positive tests to thimerosal. Contact Dermatitis 1994; 31:209-213.
Pfab R, Muckter H, Roider G, Zilker T. Clinical Course of Severe Poisoning with Thiomersal. Clin Toxicol 1996;34:453-460.
Powell HM, Jamieson WA. Merthiolate as a Germicide. Am J Hyg 1931;13:296-310.
Rohyans J, Walson PD, Wood GA, MacDonald WA. Mercury toxicity following merthiolate ear irrigations. J Pediatr 1994;104:311-313.

This review has many references to information about the safety of thimerosal. Also worth reading is the 2004 Institute of Medicine review of vaccine safety. This extremely rigorous review concluded:

Immunization Safety Review: Vaccines and Autism finds that the body of epidemiological evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism.

That’s about as close as you will get to them declaring thimerosal safe, given the scientific language they use.

I think it is true that thimerosal was introduced without proper safety testing, but that was 80 years ago, when different standards applied. Even by 2000 there was little evidence to support the use of thimerosal, which was why it was decided to remove it from most vaccines, based on the assumption that the toxicity of ethylmercury was the same as methylmercury. However, research since then has shown that ethylmercury is considerably less toxic than methylmercury as it is more rapidly and more completely excreted and less of if gets into the brain.
As I have posted before, if we had known in 2000 what we know now, thimerosal would most likely not have been removed from vaccines.

Just why was the CDC so concerned about removing Thimerosal from vaccines anyway?

Umm, to placate time-wasting anti-vaccine brain-dead maroons?

But of course, you all continually LIE on this board, so I guess we are even.

Any actual examples of this? I haven’t seen any, unlike AoA or TMR, where misinformation flows like water.

“95% effective”
That’s the required rate mandated by the FDA. Evidently, a couple of scientists have charged that this “efficacy rate” can be fraudulently manufactured. Whether their charges are true remains to be determined in a court of law.

Interestingly, an AIDS vaccine researcher in Iowa was found guilty of research fraud last October and is being indicted. Evidently he was having trouble showing a satisfactory efficacy rate in rabbit animal trials for an AIDS vaccine, funded by the NIH. He tried to reach the magic number by adding in HUMAN
ANTIBODIES. Evidently a whistleblower was checking his results. Epic Fail.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/researcher-charged-major-hiv-vaccine-fraud-case

Any actual examples of this? I haven’t seen any, unlike AoA or TMR, where misinformation flows like water.

Ahem Krebiozen, we are not telling her what she wants to hear, affirming her blatantly false statements or congratulating her on such an investigative spirit that she’s delving into questions about the ebil vaccine stockpiles of the 1980’s. Ergo we lie. And we’re smarter than she so we’re all pharma shills. Crap, a bath sponge is smarter than she is.

That’s the required rate mandated by the FDA. Evidently, a couple of scientists have charged that this “efficacy rate” can be fraudulently manufactured. Whether their charges are true remains to be determined in a court of law.

Oh FFS there isn’t any goddamned “mandate” for vaccine “efficacy rate”. And there is no such term as “efficacy rate”.

Just why was the CDC so concerned about removing Thimerosal from vaccines anyway?

It wasn’t because there was a body of evidence suggesting that thimerosal at exposure levels achievable as the result of routine vaccination was harmful, toto.

It occured instead in the absence of any evidence its use as a preservative in vaccine formulations conveyed risk, as a conseqeunce of the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) Modernization Act of 1997, which directed the FDA to comprehensively review the risk all mercury containing products it oversaw (not just vaccines). Thimerosal was removed from vaccine formulations as a precautionary step until it could complete a comprehensive analysis.

That analysis, conducted in 1999, found no evidence of harm from the use of thimerosal as a vaccine preservative, other than transient local hypersensitivity reactions.

Note at the time thimerosal was removed only 2% of US vaccine stocks contained thimerosal as a preservative.

Note also that the rincidence of new autism diagnoses has continued to increase despite the removal of thimerosal as a preservative.

Thanks, Narad. Much appreciated.

No problem. I’ve brought the docket up to date. I’ve got about $3 left of free PACER this quarter, but all of the documents I’ve checked are sealed.

Todd W: Oh, and for those keeping score, note that I, a pro-vaccine individual, am saying there’s no need for a bubonic plague vaccine.

Right. Bacteria and viruses are different- and it’s much easier simply figuring a way to keep the fleas out and treating with anti-biotics than to develop a vaccine. Also, bubonic plague isn’t airborne right? It can’t be transmitted directly person-to-person unlike a number of viral diseases.

Thanks Kreepy Ozone!
“However, research since then has shown that ethylmercury is considerably less toxic than methylmercury as it is more rapidly and more completely excreted and less of if gets into the brain.”

This is the research I want to see. Can you cite it?
What about the 1 in 48 boys that can’t excrete it due to other complications such as mitochondrial difference?

@PGP

Y. pestis is primarily a bloodborne pathogen, so it doesn’t spread very easily. Risk of infection is pretty low unless you come in contact with infected blood/body fluids (human or other animal) or it progresses to a pneumonic form, in which case it can be spread by coughing.

Tito:

Thanks Kreepy Ozone!
“However, research since then has shown that ethylmercury is considerably less toxic than methylmercury as it is more rapidly and more completely excreted and less of if gets into the brain.”

This is the research I want to see. Can you cite it?
What about the 1 in 48 boys that can’t excrete it due to other complications such as mitochondrial difference?

I think tit for tat is only fair, so can you cite the research that states 1 in 48 boys can’t excrete thimerosal?

@Jesus, God, Country

“Note also that the rincidence of new autism diagnoses has continued to increase despite the removal of thimerosal as a preservative.”

I’d like to see those stats. Do you have them for 2007 to present? As I have already pointed out, they are pushing Thimerosal laden flu vaccines, given yearly, while at the same time they have gradually decreased (or offered more mercury free ones) the mercury in the infant vaccines. Same difference. Nice trick.
Mayor Bloomberg must have had a vested interest.

Toto:

As I have already pointed out, they are pushing Thimerosal laden flu vaccines, given yearly, while at the same time they have gradually decreased (or offered more mercury free ones) the mercury in the infant vaccines. Same difference.

Where’s your evidence that the two amounts would be equal? Or if they’re not, why do you insist that thimerosal causes more autism in lower dosages (because total amount of thimerosal delivered via vaccines has gone down since thimerosal was phased out from all pediatric vaccines (except some flu vaccines not usually recommended for children) but autism rates have gone up.

@ Aghast!

“Date Published:
March 29, 2012
1 in 48 boys diagnosed with autism
(March 29, 2012—Atlanta) The Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta today reported that 1 in 88 children (1 in 48 boys) is diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder (ASD). Previous reports had pegged the number at 1 in 110.”
http://autismsciencefoundation.org/press-releases/1-88-diagnosed-autism-spectrum-disorder-cdc-reports

CDC Autism rates ’93 to ’06 (see bar graph)
http://www.thedailysheeple.com/did-you-know-1-in-6-children-has-a-developmental-disability-in-the-u-s_082014

PLUS This:

http://www.autismus-ads-behandeln.ch/adhs-autismus/images/Richard%20Deth%20research.pdf

The vast (and I mean vast) majority of children receive the nasal variety of vaccines (like FluMist) which contain no Thimerosal, while most of the rest (if not all of them, like in places like California) get Thimerosal-free shot flu vaccines.

Toto isn’t in Kansas anymore, obviously…..

@Aghast!

I am posting my links one by one to see what gets through the filter.
“Date Published:
March 29, 2012
1 in 48 boys diagnosed with autism
(March 29, 2012—Atlanta) The Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta today reported that 1 in 88 children (1 in 48 boys) is diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder (ASD). Previous reports had pegged the number at 1 in 110.”
http://autismsciencefoundation.org/press-releases/1-88-diagnosed-autism-spectrum-disorder-cdc-reports

Also, bubonic plague isn’t airborne right? It can’t be transmitted directly person-to-person unlike a number of viral diseases.

Well, the bacterium lends itself to airborne transmission, but then (as Todd W has said) it is by definition Pneumonic rather than bubonic plague.

There is a vaccine for plague, but it isn’t very good and is only recommended for people who are likely to come into contact with plague.
There has been a lot of speculation about mechanisms of plague transmission, especially in view of the fact there are two different presentations – pneumonic and bubonic.

@Aghast!

“Molecular Aspects of Thimerosal-induced Autism

Richard C. Deth, Ph.D.

Professor of Pharmacology Northeastern University Boston, Massachusetts

Summary

The developmental disorder autism has both genetic and environmental origins, and its forty-fold increase during the past two decades reflects an increased role for environmental factors. It has been proposed that increased use of vaccines containing the ethylmercury derivative thimerasol is the major contributing factor. Published research from my laboratory has revealed that thimerosal is an exceptionally potent inhibitor of biochemical pathways that transfer single carbon atoms between molecules. These “methylation” pathways are critically involved in several important functions including the regulation of gene expression and the molecular mechanism of attention. Recent studies from my lab indicate that thimerosal exerts its toxic effect on methylation by interfering with formation of the active form of vitamin B12, also known as cobalamin. Dietary B12 must be converted to methylB12 (methylcobalamin) in order to assist in the transfer of single-carbon methyl groups from the folic acid pathway by the enzyme known as methionine synthase. By reducing methylB12 formation, thimerosal inhibits this enzyme and thereby interferes with methylation events. Autistic children have abnormal plasma levels of methylation-related metabolites and exhibit higher frequencies of genetic mutations that affect this pathway. These genetic risk factors make them less able to detoxify thimerosal and also increase their sensitivity to its mechanism of toxicity. In many cases, autism can be effectively treated by the administration of methylB12 along with other agents that augment methylation capacity. Taken together, these facts indicate that increased exposure to thimerosal has combined with genetic risk factors in a sensitive subpopulation to cause the recent rise in autism.”

Toto:
Please read the following question carefully, twice.

What is your evidence that 1 in 48 boys cannot excrete thimerosal?

You’ve read it twice? Good. Not, to emphasize the point, I didn’t ask where you got the number. I asked for a source for this claim you made: “What about the 1 in 48 boys that can’t excrete it [thimerosal]”

@Aghast

The flu vaccines on the shot sheet said 25 micrograms ea. Twice the amount in the average pre-2000 0-3 vaccine schedule (12.5 micrograms). The flu shots are given YEARLY. Early childhood vaccines…not so much. Bloomberg forced New Yorkers to give yearly flu vaccines to lids 4 and under attending school. They are now pushing flu shots on PREGNANT women. The babies are now being exposed to mercury in the womb. This was one thing Dr. William Thomas was quite alarmed about. Dr. Hooker recorded his reaction. I posted it earlier.

Toto @286 (my emphases)

1 in 48 boys diagnosed with autism

Your claim back at #280 reads

the 1 in 48 boys that can’t excrete it due to other complications such as mitochondrial difference

Are you claiming all boys with autism have a “mitochondrial difference”?

@toto,

Did he ever manage to publish that anywhere or is it just on anti-vaxx sites. I mean someone with those initials seems capable of publishing other articles that make me think it is the same guy, but if he can’t even get the bottom feeding journals to publish that…tends to make it hard to believe it is anything but dreck even if it did address the question you were asked.

Toto:
as you’re so certain, you surely have no problem giving year-by-year statistics?

How many children were injected with a flu vaccine? How many of those flu vaccines for children contained thimerosal?

A link to an excel sheet will suffice, if you don’t want to risk mangling the readability by copy-pasting it in the comments.

“What is your evidence that 1 in 48 boys cannot excrete thimerosal?” I didn’t say that.

Here was my exact quote:
“What about the 1 in 48 boys that can’t excrete it due to other complications such as mitochondrial difference?”

The evidence is obviously Dr. Deth’s research paper.
Duh.
Ethyl mercury is directly linked to “autism”.
Autism is a made up name for mercury poisoning.
“Autism” is not scientifically diagnosed. It is merely a description of specific behaviors listed in a psychiatry manual.

This is a test to see if this is being censored.

Three links or more = moderation queue, Dennis.

KayMarie

He states that it was published (this is just the white paper). I believe he said it was sent to U.C. Davis.
I have a novel idea. Why don’t you peer review it? It has become such a corrupt system any way. Did you know that there are now “peer review RINGS of FRAUD” ?

“Scholarly journal retracts 60 articles, smashes ‘peer review ring’”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/10/scholarly-journal-retracts-60-articles-smashes-peer-review-ring/

I didn’t say that.

What about the 1 in 48 boys that can’t excrete it due to other complications such as mitochondrial difference?

Good lord you’re stupid.

“Autism” is not scientifically diagnosed. It is merely a description of specific behaviors listed in a psychiatry manual.

Beyond stupid. Have you ever even met anyone on the spectrum?

“What is your evidence that 1 in 48 boys cannot excrete thimerosal?” I didn’t say that.

Here was my exact quote:
“What about the 1 in 48 boys that can’t excrete it due to other complications such as mitochondrial difference?” emphasis added

The evidence is obviously Dr. Deth’s research paper.

Then your evidence is sorely lacking. One research paper, which – please help me out here – demonstrates all cases of autism are caused by failure to excrete thimerosal how? and where?

blockquote fail above.

“The evidence is obviously Dr. Deth’s research paper.” should be part of the quote.

@JGC:

Note at the time thimerosal was removed only 2% of US vaccine stocks contained thimerosal as a preservative.

You may be off by a year (or less). Thimerosal is cited, e.g., here as having been removed in 2001. The 2% figure goes to February 2002.

“However, research since then has shown that ethylmercury is considerably less toxic than methylmercury as it is more rapidly and more completely excreted and less of if gets into the brain.”

This is the research I want to see. Can you cite it?

Do you have some disability that prevents you from using PubMed? Here are a few post -1999 studies i.e. since it was decided to remove thimerosal from most vaccines:

Neurotoxic character of thimerosal and the allometric extrapolation of adult clearance half-time to infants. Magos L. J Appl Toxicol. 2003 Jul-Aug;23(4):263-9.

The evidence for the safety of thiomersal in newborn and infant vaccines. Clements CJ. Vaccine. 2004 May 7;22(15-16):1854-61.

Mercury concentrations in brain and kidney following ethylmercury, methylmercury and Thimerosal administration to neonatal mice. Harry GJ, Harris MW, Burka LT. Toxicol Lett. 2004 Dec 30;154(3):183-9.

Comparison of blood and brain mercury levels in infant monkeys exposed to methylmercury or vaccines containing thimerosal. Burbacher TM, Shen DD, Liberato N, Grant KS, Cernichiari E, Clarkson T. Environ Health Perspect. 2005 Aug;113(8):1015-21.

Comparison of organic and inorganic mercury distribution in suckling rat. Orct T, Blanusa M, Lazarus M, Varnai VM, Kostial K. J Appl Toxicol. 2006 Nov-Dec;26(6):536-9.

Mechanisms of mercury disposition in the body. Clarkson TW, Vyas JB, Ballatori N. Am J Ind Med. 2007 Oct;50(10):757-64. Review.

Low-level neonatal thimerosal exposure: further evaluation of altered neurotoxic potential in SJL mice. Berman RF, Pessah IN, Mouton PR, Mav D, Harry J. Toxicol Sci. 2008 Feb;101(2):294-309.

Identification and distribution of mercury species in rat tissues following administration of thimerosal or methylmercury. Rodrigues JL, Serpeloni JM, Batista BL, Souza SS, Barbosa F Jr. Arch Toxicol. 2010 Nov;84(11):891-6. doi: 10.1007/s00204-010-0538-4..

Integrating experimental (in vitro and in vivo) neurotoxicity studies of low-dose thimerosal relevant to vaccines. Dórea JG. Neurochem Res. 2011 Jun;36(6):927-38. doi: 10.1007/s11064-011-0427-0.

Mercury disposition in suckling rats: comparative assessment following parenteral exposure to thiomersal and mercuric chloride. Blanuša M, Orct T, Vihnanek Lazarus M, Sekovanić A, Piasek M. J Biomed Biotechnol. 2012;2012:256965. doi: 10.1155/2012/256965.

Low-dose mercury exposure in early life: relevance of thimerosal to fetuses, newborns and infants. Dórea JG. Curr Med Chem. 2013;20(32):4060-9.

Mercury toxicity and neurodegenerative effects. Carocci A, Rovito N, Sinicropi MS, Genchi G. Rev Environ Contam Toxicol. 2014;229:1-18. doi: 10.1007/978-3-319-03777-6_1. Review.

A systematic study of the disposition and metabolism of mercury species in mice after exposure to low levels of thimerosal (ethylmercury). Carneiro MF, Oliveira Souza JM, Grotto D, Batista BL, de Oliveira Souza VC, Barbosa F Jr. Environ Res. 2014 Aug 27;134C:218-227. doi: 10.1016/j.envres.2014.07.009.

How could I forget Pichichero?

Mercury levels in newborns and infants after receipt of thimerosal-containing vaccines. Pichichero ME, Gentile A, Giglio N, Umido V, Clarkson T, Cernichiari E, Zareba G, Gotelli C, Gotelli M, Yan L, Treanor J. Pediatrics. 2008 Feb;121(2):e208-14. doi: 10.1542/peds.2006-3363.

Mercury concentrations and metabolism in infants receiving vaccines containing thiomersal: a descriptive study. Pichichero ME, Cernichiari E, Lopreiato J, Treanor J. Lancet. 2002 Nov 30;360(9347):1737-41.

“Are you claiming all boys with autism have a “mitochondrial difference”?

“Evidence of reactive oxygen species-mediated damage to mitochondrial DNA in children with typical autism.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23347615

U.C. Davis put out this research. I called one of the researchers and she confirmed that ALL of the children in the study had received their scheduled vaccinations. She does NOT plan to do a followup study on autistic children who have not been vaccinated. Her study seems to complement Dr. Deth’s.

Again, autism is a nebulous term that is not scientifically diagnosed. It is merely a description of certain behaviors listed in a psychiatry manual. Because of its loose definition, one COULD say that the 1 in 48 diagnosis is due to a mitochondrial difference + Thimerosal poisoning. The research indicates that the first prevents efficient secretion of the second, resulting in damage. The brain and organ damage results in the behavior now called autism. That is my point of view based on the work of these experts.

@NORAD

This one has been tried repeatedly, tutu. How anybody figures that this constitutes an insult escapes me.

I’d cut you a break and say that it’s not as easy as it seems, but given the, ah, proclivities that you’ve already put on display, you really have no excuse for failing to jump straight to “GAYRAD.”

@Krebiozen
Thanks for the data dump. Are these available to read for free at PubMed? Remember, I am not a medical professional. I can’t afford to pay for these sites. Could you do some pull quotes to defend your position?
Also, I noticed that none of these articles were published before 2003. This is significant. The Simpsonwood doc. indicated that the researchers knew of NO research on Thimerosal safety in human babies, yet they had gone ahead and implemented the radical new vaccine schedule beginning in 1986. We begin to see the results of this in the CDC autism rate data. In 1993, the autism growth rate had increased 23%. Each year it increased until it reached 1300%+ in 2006! This is why in 2004, Thompson feared facing angry groups of parents with autistic children, and wanted to remove the explosive African- American data. The statistics do not happen in a vacuum. Something was obviously going on.

Toto,

Ethyl mercury is directly linked to “autism”.

If that were true, why wasn’t there an epidemic of autism back when people were liberally slathering their children’s cuts and grazes with merthioloate tinctures and ointments? These contained at least 0.1% thimerosal, which means that even a single drop contained more than a flu vaccine. People did suffer mercury poisoning from absorbing thimerosal from this medicine, but the symptoms did not resemble autism.

Adverse Effects (1%) Skin: Itching erythema, papular or vesicular eruptions. Body as a Whole: Mercury poisoning with prolonged use (metallic taste, salivation, stomatitis, lethargy, peripheral neuropathy).

Moving on….

Autism is a made up name for mercury poisoning.

Here are the symptoms of organic mercury poisoning:

walking difficulty, muscle pains, vomiting, and dysarthria. Neurologilcal examination showed walking disability, weakness of the limbs, general hypotonia, horizontal nystagmus, deglutition impairment, severe ataxia, and increased tendon reflexes.

Here are the symptoms of autism (from Wikipedia, which is as good a source as any):

It is distinguished not by a single symptom, but by a characteristic triad of symptoms: impairments in social interaction; impairments in communication; and restricted interests and repetitive behavior. […]

An estimated 0.5% to 10% of individuals with ASD show unusual abilities, ranging from splinter skills such as the memorization of trivia to the extraordinarily rare talents of prodigious autistic savants. Many individuals with ASD show superior skills in perception and attention, relative to the general population. Sensory abnormalities are found in over 90% of those with autism, and are considered core features by some, although there is no good evidence that sensory symptoms differentiate autism from other developmental disorders. Differences are greater for under-responsivity (for example, walking into things) than for over-responsivity (for example, distress from loud noises) or for sensation seeking (for example, rhythmic movements). An estimated 60%–80% of autistic people have motor signs that include poor muscle tone, poor motor planning, and toe walking; deficits in motor coordination are pervasive across ASD and are greater in autism proper.

What makes you think that there is any relationship between the two conditions? They seem entirely different to me. Autism seems to be characterized by the presence of extra brain material, and results in superior skills in many individuals. How could methylmercury poisoning possibly do that?

Thanks for the data dump.

Data dump? You asked for citations and I gave you citations.

Also, I noticed that none of these articles were published before 2003. This is significant.

It is significant because, as I explained, I deliberately chose later studies because this is the evidence that we didn’t have in 1999 when it was decided to remove thimerosal from most vaccines. If we had had that evidence then thimerosal would very probably not have been removed from vaccines, because it has been show to be safe.

This is the research I want to see. Can you cite it?>/blockquote>

I suggest you start with “Mercury Levels in Newborns and Infants After Receipt of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines, Pichichero et al, Pediatrics Vol. 121 No. 2 February 1, 2008 pp. e208 -e214”, and Burbacher’s animal model “Comparison of blood and brain mercury levels in infant monkeys exposed to methylmercury or vaccines containing thimerosal” Burbacher TM1, Shen DD, Liberato N, Grant KS, Cernichiari E, Clarkson T., Environ Health Perspect. 2005 Aug;113(8):1015-21.)

Getting stupider and stupider. Toto doesn’t even seem to realize that it’s own citation on “mitochondrial differences” has nothing to do with the kinds of ‘differences’ it proposes causes thimerosal excretion problems. Instead, the study looks at mtDNA mutations that result from ROS damage, nearly all of which occur in the function-free, noncoding part of the mt genome.

Question for you, Toto: where exactly in the mitochrondrial genome are the ‘differences’ that lead to the inability to excrete thimerosal? genomic coordinates relative to rCRS NC_012920 are preferred.

Autism is a made up name for mercury poisoning.

That’s one thing autism is demonstrably not: the diagnostic criteria for autism and mercury poisoning are completely different.

Are these available to read for free at PubMed? Remember, I am not a medical professional. I can’t afford to pay for these sites. Could you do some pull quotes to defend your position?

Sorry, I don’t currently have institutional access to journals, but many are available as free full text. As you aren’t a medical professional and clearly have very little knowledge and understanding of this subject, perhaps you shouldn’t be going around spreading such risible nonsense about it. Just a thought.

Because of its loose definition, one COULD say that the 1 in 48 diagnosis is due to a mitochondrial difference + Thimerosal poisoning.

Only if one had actual evidence demonstrating it was due to a mitochondrial difference + thimerosal poisoning.

So…got any?

The Simpsonwood doc. indicated that the researchers knew of NO research on Thimerosal safety in human babies, yet they had gone ahead and implemented the radical new vaccine schedule beginning in 1986. We begin to see the results of this in the CDC autism rate data

Citation needed, toto: your evidence demonstrating that the increase in theincidence of autism diagnoses was caused by the implementation of the new schedule in 1986 would be…what, exactly?

The entire early vaccine schedule unleashes many foreign entities into the babies body. Mercury damage will change with age of exposure. Children will detox themselves at different rates. Some more, some less, some not at all. Because of this, the child’s immune system may be weakened. They may have varying reactions to the antigens themselves. The gut can become inflamed and cause absorption deficiencies. This creates a whole new cascade of symptoms. Some children may also acquire the diseases in their vaccine because of their weakened state. This can set up chronic health problems. The researchers at the Simpsonwood meeting were looking at MULTIPLE neurodegenerate conditions as anticipated problems from elevated Thymerosal exposure. This is very telling of what they knew back in 2000. They NEVER considered that autism would be the only outcome. They even included ADHD, as does Dr. Deth. The resulting condition is better described as a syndrome. I know personally, because together, all four of my sons have a majority of the conditions they were looking at. Their birth dates were 1987, 1996, 1997, and 2000. THE AGE OF AUTISM. They each had the NEW full schedule vaccines, mostly on time. None of the coverup crap you have been spewing has the slightest effect on me. I LIVE IT EVERYDAY. I hope those nice former Merck scientists HAVE THEIR DAY IN COURT! I look forward to ALL of the revelations of William Thompson. Dr. Hooker has been recording him for 9 months. He must have stories to tell. Regardless, all of you will stand before the White Throne of Judgement one day. I wouldn’t want to be in your shoes.

Good day!

And, confronted with too much reality, Toto retreats to Oz.
Stay on your side of the rainbow next time, cupcake.

Toto: How many weasel words can you count in a single paragraph?

all of you will stand before the White Throne of Judgement one day. I wouldn’t want to be in your shoes.

Good day!

So I take it you’re not going to be answering any questions?

Toto has been a trip – been a long time since we’ve seen someone so delusional – even gives Mr. Best a run for his money (in the same ballpark as least).

@Dam-GEEEEEE!
Really? I am the customer. I have many connections. When I talk, parents listen. The tide is rising. You cannot stop us from telling one another the truth about your witches’ brew. My children are living proof. You cannot stop their testimony. You may as well make a bonfire with your fraudulent “studies”. The Truth is coming. You cannot stop it.

Uh, “Toto.” Knock it off with the “God” sock puppet.

I haven’t let any of your posts of Biblical quotes under the ‘nym “God” through because I do not allow sock puppets and when I see them I block them.

By Post Author

The entire early vaccine schedule unleashes many foreign entities into the babies body.

Did you have a point? A newborn is exposed to orders of magnitude more antigens in the first 15 minutes after delivery than it could ever be exposed to as a consequence of the most aggressive, comprehensive immunization schedule possible–what evidence suggest that exposure to a few more antigens as the result of vaccination is sufficient to somehow engender risk–or more accurately to engender greater risk than is associated with remaining vulnerable to the infectious diseases they protect against?

Mercury damage will change with age of exposure.

Given that you have offered exactly zero evidence that exposure to ethyl mercury at levels acheivable by routine vacination is harmful, I have to ask again: did you have a point?

Children will detox themselves at different rates. Some more, some less, some not at all. Because of this, the child’s immune system may be weakened.

CItations needed: your evidence that routine childhood vaccination, as a consequence of exposure to ethyl mercury from thimerosal perservatives or by any other mechanism, has been shown to weaken a child’s immune system would be…what, exactly?

“They may have varying reactions to the antigens themselves. The gut can become inflamed and cause absorption deficiencies.”

Citations needed.

“Some children may also acquire the diseases in their vaccine because of their weakened state.”

Citations needed.

“The researchers at the Simpsonwood meeting were looking at MULTIPLE neurodegenerate conditions as anticipated problems from elevated Thymerosal exposure. This is very telling of what they knew back in 2000. They NEVER considered that autism would be the only outcome. They even included ADHD, as does Dr. Deth. ”

and given that they also found no evidence of a causal association between thimerosal exposure as a consequence of routine vaccination and any developmental disorder-autism, ADHD, whatever–I ask again: did you have a point?

I know personally, because together, all four of my sons have a majority of the conditions they were looking at.

That stongly suggests a genetic component, wouldn’t you agree?

Their birth dates were 1987, 1996, 1997, and 2000. THE AGE OF AUTISM. They each had the NEW full schedule vaccines, mostly on time.

As did literally orders of magnitude more children born in those same year, who did not develop autism or other developmental disorders.

None of the coverup crap you have been spewing has the slightest effect on me.

I.e., “That evidence doesn’t count. Because I said so.”

I LIVE IT EVERYDAY.

Your circumstances aren’t evidence in support of your claims.

“I hope those nice former Merck scientists HAVE THEIR DAY IN COURT!”

I’d say the NVICP Omnibus Autism Hearngs were their day in court, and they were roundly acquitted of anything resembling wrongdoing.

I look forward to ALL of the revelations of William Thompson. Dr. Hooker has been recording him for 9 months. He must have stories to tell.

I’m sure we can look forward to more statements and press releases that similarly fail to demonstrate any kind of cover-up occurred, orto link vaccination to the development of autism spectrum disorders, in the days to come.

I am the customer.

Of pediatric vaccines? Not anymore, based on your sons’ ages.

I have many connections.

Not many of them are synaptic, it seems.

When I talk, parents listen.

Based on this thread, I question your ability to evaluate whether others are actually listening to you.

The tide is rising. You cannot stop us from telling one another the truth about your witches’ brew.

I agree, this whole whistleblower brouhaha has really revealed that all that’s really left is you hardcore loons talking to each other.

My children are living proof. You cannot stop their testimony.

Science is not decided by testimony. Are you able to tell us exactly what mitochondrial differences in your children caused whatever it is you think makes them ‘living proof’?

You may as well make a bonfire with your fraudulent “studies”.

So does that include the UC Davis study you cited, or is it not fraudulent because you think it supports your ass-backwards theory of autism causation (it doesn’t)? Do you have any criteria for identifying a fraudulent study other than “reaches a conclusion I disagree with”?

The Truth is coming. You cannot stop it.

It is very telling that you speak of capital-T Truth. Your belief that vaccines cause autism is clearly irrational in that no amount of evidence could convince you otherwise. I hope you enjoy the company of birthers, truthers, and moon landing conspiracy theorists!

Alas! Our guest has done the impossible- spurred on my conscience which I had believed to be dead and buried long ago. Like Thompson, I feel I must confess after all of these years of hiding the truth… or else place my very soul in jeopardy.

I shall presently reveal what all of us are paid for our work here @ RI. I’ll sleep so much easier… finally.
There I go, thinking about myself again and abandoning my colleagues to the winds of change whistling through the vast caverns of the internet which is experiencing paradigm shift on a grand scale this momentous week.

Please, please forgive me, brothers and sisters: you too may feel the stirrings of conscience yourself some day.

Orac pays us in GBP because he originated in the UK and it sounds better than USD or AUD. He also hates euros. Don’t we all!

We are each paid by the word at rates the significance of which is only known to our paymaster and his own benefactor, our lord and master You-know-who.
So here we go:

@ 1.19 per word:
kruuth, gaist, AdamG, BobG, Thomas, doug
@ 1.21 per word:
squirrelelite, LW, NH Primary Care, Flip, ChrisP, Julian
@ 1.23 per word:
Eric, Gray Falcon, Todd W, Lawrence, herr doktor
@ 1.24 per word:
Bacon, Antaeus, Narad, Kreb

@ 1.22 per word:
Liz, Vicki, PGP, Calli, lilady, Science Mom, Chris, Shay, Kay Marie, Rebecca and yours truly

I am terribly ashamed of having been a paid shill for Pharmatocracy for so many years and having enjoyed an extravagant, decadent lifestyle amongst my many similarly morally conpromised fellow and sister minions. Lord forgive us all our errant ways.

Don’t think that my list is complete-
there are Others. I’ll leave it our critics to figure out who they are and what they do.

@ 1.24 per word:
@ 1.22 per word:

Someday we’ll have equality in the Pharma Shill workplace!

Well, Toto has been amusing. I am not sure when I last saw so much deranged bilge written on a website.

I noticed that when the facts were laid out carefully and started leading Toto away from their conspiracy theories, they reverted back to MMR contains thiomersal and from there to some of the behaviour that was so reminiscent of Greg.

It has been fun, but it is now boring and lurkers won’t bother getting to the bottom of this thread, as they will have lost the will to live well before this.

Did he ever manage to publish that anywhere or is it just on anti-vaxx sites. I mean someone with those initials seems capable of publishing other articles that make me think it is the same guy, but if he can’t even get the bottom feeding journals to publish that…tends to make it hard to believe it is anything but dreck even if it did address the question you were asked.

Nope, not peer-reviewed nor published but you probably suspected that. Additionally, Deth is a regular on the anti-vaxx, vaccinesdidit circuit and an “expert” at the OAP. Need I say more?

Denice #332, you left out lilady, Dorit, and the person whom Dan Olmsted refers to as “the execrable Matt Carey.” Coincidence? I think not!

Someday we’ll have equality in the Pharma Shill workplace!

Last I checked, I couldn’t even afford the dues to join the IWW.

@ Anne:

lilady is on the 1.22 list whilst you, Dorit, Matt, Ren and some _other people_ are not.
As I said previously, “There are Others”.

-btw- I think I’ll now call myself ‘Laxmi’ – it’s so much more spiritual-sounding than DW. I have a book deal with Skyhorse. Stay tuned!

“You may as well make a bonfire with your fraudulent “studies”.”

I notice a lot of antivaxxers fantasize about destroying all the evidence that shows that they’re wrong. It would make a big bonfire. Of course if they could prove the studies were fraudulent, they wouldn’t need to be wannabe book-burners.

Ah well, while Toto is pretending, parents who use their actual names, like Matt, Kathleen, and Ken are actually helping autistic people, instead of making up stories about them.

“You may as well make a bonfire with your fraudulent “studies”.”

I notice a lot of antivaxxers fantasize about destroying all the evidence that shows that they’re wrong. It would make a big bonfire. Of course if they could prove the studies were fraudulent, they wouldn’t need to be wannabe book-burners.

Ah well, while Toto is pretending, parents who use their actual names, like Matt, Kathleen, and Ken are actually helping autistic people, instead of making up stories about them.

It was interesting to see Toto hammering on the business of the “stockpiles” and the dates thereof. It had the ring of matter of personal interest, and lo and behold …
I’m cynical enough to believe that YoDad’s professed concern with kids in developing nations was a similar sort of ploy. If anyone were to “confess” that thimerosal (lord, I wish the much more apt thiomersal name was used) should be removed from vaccines for all nations, it would become a confession of past liability everywhere.

I thought pharmashills were paid in pieces of silver, 30 pieces at a time, for a number of words dependent on the verishillmilitude of said words.

My check seems to have gotten lost somewhere (I suspect the rate is in Hong Kong rather than U.S. dollars, and the money may have been sent to my last Kowloon address), but I will trust in our extraterrestrial overlords.

Doug-

Note that DW gave the rate in GBP. Wiki notes that-

…silver coins known as “sterlings” were issued in the Saxon kingdoms, 240 of them being minted from a pound of silver… Hence, large payments came to be reckoned in “pounds of sterlings,” a phrase later shortened…

—Encyclopedia Brittanica, entry “pound sterling”

So, at £1.22 per word, she gets 292.8 pieces of silver per word.

I get a rock.

@ Denice Walter — You get paid by the word??

We used to DREAM of getting paid by the word! I had to get up out of the server at 10:30 at night, ‘alf an hour before I went to bed, eat a ‘andful of cold ground-up Geier studies, PAY Orac for the privilege to post a few words, and when I got ‘ome my dad would slice me in two with an 8×10 glossy of Wakefield.

@ Johnny:
@ Scottynuke:

Mssrs:
You fellows ( and palindrom) should not exactly carp loudly about what shills are paid.
since you are amongst the OTHERS of whom I refer to so cautiously because…..
you know. Need I say more?

Shills and minions also get paid to get our flu shots.

No, wait, that’s anyone who gets one at a Safeway in Washington, and the shots are 100% covered by insurance because of Obamacare. And what I get is a discount on one order of groceries.

Mostly, what I got was the vaccine and a brightly colored information sheet, with links to CDC and VAERS and all.

Just a little off topic, but we all know what Denice always says…

Mike Adams has really gone off the deep end. Today he compares the ISIS beheading videos to watching a child get vaccinated:

“Why on Earth would I want to see the violent act of someone’s head being cut off? It’s bad enough seeing videos of children being vaccinated with toxic vaccines laced with brain damaging mercury. Our world doesn’t need more violence. Vaccine violence, pesticide violence and medical violence against our children is already too much to bear.”

Toto: Just in case you come back, I want this on record; ADD and ADHD are not signs of damage and should not be lumped in with autism. I know lots of people with ADD and ADHD, and even the dumbest of them was much more intelligent than you could ever hope to be.

Because of its loose definition, one COULD say that the 1 in 48 diagnosis is due to a mitochondrial difference + Thimerosal poisoning.

One could also say “Hatrack calenture fishspoon” and make about as much sense.

None of the coverup crap you have been spewing has the slightest effect on me. I LIVE IT EVERYDAY. I hope those nice former Merck scientists HAVE THEIR DAY IN COURT!

Speaking of which, D’ohlmsted has a typically information-barren update on Krahling & Wlochowski in the latest “From the Editor” that he’s manage to arse himself to generate:

“Latest: Whistleblower suit against Merck for faking data sailed through to discovery phase. Judge rejected Merck motion to dismiss; threw out parts of related suit not brought by whistleblowers. -0-”

Somewhat closer to the mark would be “after two years, they have managed to establish that they have actually stated a claim.”

T:Oh, please. We’ve seen it and discounted it. If Mr. Rappaport said water is wet, I’d doubt it- he’s unreliable and will make anything up.

@ Woo Fighter:

Ha ha. I frequently find incredibly hilarious headlines there – did you see the one about the drought?

– as background- both he and his PRN counterpart loon tell their entranced audiences that people need to desert the cities – especially in California- because the end times are upon us: drought, fires, floods, earthquakes, gang warfare, food shortages, power failures, nuclear meltdowns ( only the latter predicts rising oceans)- you name it- it’s on its way to destroy you. A mass exodus of city dwelling refugees escaping towards rural inland places has already begun.

Mike repeats what he’s said recently – real estate in CA will collapse, people will be moving out in desperation..
people just aren’t AWARE yet.

Because someone gave one of my cohorts a similar line of crap about cities and real estate, I did a little searching about US realtors’ predictions concerning markets in the next decade and guess what? Six of the ten hot markets in the US are in CA- others include the bucolic villages of Portland, Seattle, Boston and NY.

I guess the realtors’ haven’t got the word on what’s up yet.

Which brings me to………………

ANYONE can say ANYTHING on the internet:
doesn’t mean it’s true

Alt media entrepreneurs and anti-vax thinking moms can write up a storm about vaccines, toxins and governmental scullduggery : they can ( and do) say anything they like.

Even Orac -or his minions- can say that they are employed by the Giant Pharma Lizards ™ or that they are paid by the word. Doesn’t mean it’s true.

Saying something and providing meaningful evidence and DATA from multiple reliable sources which stand up to scientific scrutiny are two entirely different things.

People on the ‘net acquire a reputation for being either reality or whimsy-based. Sites like Natural News, AoA ,TMR and PRN’s various projects shouldn’t inspire confidence in the veracity of their reportage: it’s called ‘alternative’ for a reason because it represents an alternative reality.

A barely-educated scam artist who purports to be ‘ahead of the curve’ about health, finance and trends should be ridiculed not followed. At the depths of the 2009 recession these idiots were telling people to sell stocks ( at lows), take their money out of banks and buy precious metals and land.

I wonder how that advice panned out?

Thanks for the kudo @Denice Walter!

Since I passed my big exam yesterday, maybe I’ll have time to earn more lucre.

I guess Toto is moderately interesting for a while, but I’ve stopped holding my breath waiting for something resembling a coherent argument.

ttfn

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For those who can’t read, click on the embedded link to the video. It as produced by Dr. Wakefield and Dr. Hooker.
It is a phone recording of Dr. William Thompson speaking to Dr. Hooker. He clearly indicates that “THIMEROSAL CAUSES AUTISM-LIKE FEATURES”

“THIMEROSAL CAUSES TICS”

For those born at least 1987-2000, LET THE LAWSUITS BEGIN!

Toto, while we wait for the tide of lawsuits are you going to answer any of the questions directed at you?

Meet Dr. Orenstein, the CDC employee who called and attended the Simpsonwood meeting and oversaw the implementation of the new vaccine schedule:

“Walter A. Orenstein, MD, DSc (Hon) is Associate Director of the Emory Vaccine Center and Professor of Medicine, Pediatrics, and Global Health at Emory University. Dr. Orenstein has had a long and distinguished career at Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), Emory University, and the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation (BMGF). Dr. Orenstein began his career in the Epidemic Intelligence Service (EIS) of the CDC, focusing on immunization, particularly on smallpox eradication and measles elimination. Between 1988 and 2004, he was Director of the United States Immunization Program rising to become an Assistant Surgeon General of the United States Public Health Service. During Dr. Orenstein’s tenure at the CDC, record high levels of immunization coverage among children were reached and indigenous transmission of measles and rubella was eliminated. Multiple new vaccines were introduced into the childhood immunization schedule. From 2004-2008, Dr. Orenstein was Associate Director of the Emory Vaccine Program with a major focus on policy issues related to influenza vaccination in the United States. In 2008, he left Emory University to become the Deputy Director for Immunization Programs at the BMGF, in charge of a large portfolio ranging from implementation of polio eradication activities to basic research on improved vaccines and diagnostics. Polio eradication was the number one priority of the BMGF.”
http://vaccines.emory.edu/faculty/orenstein_walter.html

WHY ISN’T ATLANTA ON THIS TOP LIST?
Are we just an EBOLA DUMPING GROUND?
Is there NO BENEFIT for having the CDC in your back yard??????

Report Ranks Cities’ Ability to Distribute Countermeasures Following Bioterror Attack
“New York City was judged the most prepared with an average score of 99.6, followed by Dover, Del. with an average score of 97.6 and Chicago with a score of 97.3.”

“The business publication calculated the average of the three scores given to high-density Metropolitan Statistical Areas since 2007 under the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s Cities Readiness Initiative. Cities with 69 or more points were judged to have developed adequate protocols to receive and pass out countermeasures such as vaccines and antibiotics.”
http://www.nti.org/gsn/article/report-ranks-cities-ability-distribute-countermeasures-following-bioterror-attack/

WHY ISN’T ATLANTA ON THIS TOP LIST?
Are we just an EBOLA DUMPING GROUND?
Is there NO BENEFIT for having the CDC in your back yard??????

Last I checked, the CDC wasn’t a branch of the Atlanta municipal government. Maybe you could take it up with them when you get around to this:

I plan to drive over to the CDC and ask Dr. Thompson myself.
I certainly won’t post the results for free on this blog.

BTW, I don’t think you’re likely to find Internet connectivity in a holding cell anyway.

Toto – don’t you have any interest in the truth about this? None of the evidence people have presented here seems to have penetrated your skull. You keep repeating the same nonsense even though people have shown it to be wrong. Why?

Well, Narad; Not unless one is interested in BPL protocol aka Broadband over Power Lines which is a format the slow screws haven’t figured out why their sports radio sounds like Elizabeth Cohen…

@Toto – wow, total Godwin bingo there, you really are a total fruitcake, aren’t you?

Common Core “Hitler Youth” victim?
Will the computerized tests put Big Pharma out of business?

I guess Toto is moderately interesting for a while

I am concerned about the strategic reserves of capital letters running dry.

I certainly won’t post the results for free on this blog.

As opposed to being paid beejillions of dollars to publish somewhere else?

“Cities with 69 or more points were judged to have developed adequate protocols to receive and pass out countermeasures such as vaccines and antibiotics.”

BUT WHAT IF THE CDC SCREWS UP? What if their viral nasties get out? This must be a plot……

CDC Lab Incident: Anthrax, June 2014
Update: July 19, 2014
http://www.cdc.gov/anthrax/news-multimedia/lab-incident/

CDC Laboratory Incident: Timeline of major events
http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2014/p0711-lab-safety-infographic.html

CDC reports detail lapses in deadly flu cross-contamination
By Jacque Wilson, CNN
updated 1:09 PM EDT, Fri August 15, 2014
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/15/health/cdc-report-h5n1-incident/

I GUESS THIS IS ONE WAY TO GET FLU VAX SALES UP!
NORAD! SAVE ATLANTA FROM THESE MAD SCIENTISTS!
Use your power!

SHOCK: Obama Forming “Hitler Youth” Under Common Core

Video brought to you by a division of WorldNutDaily’s Joe Farah disinformation-operative empire, which will also sell you the specific date of the Second Coming for $4.95:

[www].rightwingwatch.org/content/you-can-learn-exact-day-christs-return-if-you-give-5-worldnetdaily

I was just idly looking through Thompson et al’s 2012 paper that reanalyzed data on thimerosal and tics (among other neurodevelopmental measures). The paper found a small but statistically significant association between thimerosal exposure and tics.

Looking at the numbers, I found it odd that 12% of the boys they assessed had motor tics observed during the course of the assessment. However, “positive presence of tics from the parent report of tics in the past week and the assessor report of tics agreed only 23% of the time for motor tics”. That’s a big discrepancy.

I also found it odd that Tozzi et al (2009) found motor tics in only 4.2% of male children also during a face-to-face assessment. Looking at another source, a Swedish study (PMID: 12729145) found that “6.6% of 7- to 15-year-old children currently had or had experienced some kind tic disorder during the last year”.

Tozzi et al found no association between thimerosal and tics, and since this was a randomized prospective study, I think the results are more reliable. Retrospective studies are vulnerable to all sorts of confounders, unless all the data is available as in that Madsen MMR study. Thompson,like Verstraeten before him, had to rummage through incomplete records trying to estimate the thimerosal exposure, and recruitment was a problem:

Recruitment for Thompson et al.’s (2007) study was attempted for 3,648 children, of which, 1,985 refused or were unable to be located, 512 were deemed ineligible and 44 were unable to be assessed.

That’s a lot of refusals and lost subjects, with possible confounding factors – would parents of children with neurodevelopmental problems be more or less willing to participate, or move away from the area?

Anyway, back to the motor tics. Why did Thompson et al find twice as many male children with motor tics as Tozzi? Tics aren’t like autism, they are pretty obvious to a trained observer.

Something is wrong here. To be fair, Thompson et al did conclude:

This finding should be interpreted with caution due to limitations in the measurement of tics and the limited biological plausibility regarding a causal relationship.

It seems that Thompson has changed his mind about this.

Could it be that in Thompson et al:

Trained interviewers assessed tics by recording whether motor or phonic tics were present at any point during the 3-hr assessment period. The interviewers received verbal instruction and viewed a 30-min training video (“Tourette Syndrome: A Guide to Diagnosis of TS,” 1989).

Tozzi et al used trained psychologists, who might be expected to make a more accurate assessment than people who had merely watched a 30 minute video by way of training.

Interestingly Tozzi also reported:

We detected, through the telephone interviews with parents and reviews of medical charts, 1 case of autism among the 856 children in the lower thimerosal intake group and no cases among the 848 children in the higher thimerosal intake group.

It seems that the prevalence of diagnosed autism is considerably lower in Italy than it is in the US. t thought that the zero cases of autism among those given higher amounts of thimerosal was interesting. The likes of Toto seem to think that exposure to these levels of thimerosal inevitably result in autism.

Sorry, that’s 3 times as many tics reported by Thompson et al as compared with Tozzi, twice as many as the Swedish study.

SHOCK: Obama Forming “Hitler Youth” Under Common Core

Stupid, credulous and trolling for attention is no way to go through life.

Toto, all this ‘Hitler Youth’ stuff is boring. I think we have managed to explain in great detail here why there is no connection between thimerosal or MMR and autism.

If you are at all interested I could link to some work showing what is related to autism. But then again, you are probably not interested in genetics.

WITH APOLOGIES TO EMMA L.

The New PHOENIX

JUST like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our RED CLAY-washed, HUMID gates shall stand
A mighty SNAKE with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and HIS name
SCREWTAPE. From HIS bacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; HIS FIREY eyes command
The air-TRAFFIC CONTROL TOWERS that HEARTSFIELD frame.
“Keep AFRICAN lands, your storied pomp!” cries he
With silent lips. “Give me your POOR and your poor,
Your huddled LIBERIANS yearning to EAT free,
The wretched EBOLA of your teeming shore.
Send these, the ANTHRAX, H!N1t to THE CDC,
I lift my VACCINES besid the golden BANK door!”

@KREEPY OZONE

I can tell you get paid by the word. Because you are a frienemy, I’ll give you this graphic artist’s insider tip:
http://www.lipsum.com
Just use this every post and you’ll be rolling in the dough WITH HOURS TO SPARE. No one will be the wiser.

Snakes have hands? Snakes have bacon-hands? What’s a bacon-hand? Is that like ham-handed only cooked differently? How do the POOR differ from the poor who are separately invited?

Enquiring minds want to know.

A mighty SNAKE with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and HIS name
SCREWTAPE.

So you’re a confederate of Scalia, author of Bruesewitz, eh? Very interesting.

I can tell you get paid by the word.

True, but it’s by the number of words I can provoke antivaccine fanatics into posting here. Thanks to you and YoDaddie (and Lord Draconis’ benevolence, of course) I can take an extra vacation this year – thanks!

@LeWd

It’s poetry. That is why you can’t understand it.
Everyone in Atlanta gets the bacon reference.

‘4 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:”

It sounds like the serpent was vertical at one time. Poetic license gives him hands.

“Poor, poor” = emphasis, auditory rhythm

@Kreepy Ozone
“True, but it’s by the number of words I can provoke antivaccine fanatics into posting here. Thanks to you and YoDaddie (and Lord Draconis’ benevolence, of course) I can take an extra vacation this year – thanks!”

OMG!
I have an amazing business offer. Do the VAXXERS read the words you claim for payment? After all, they do owe my family MILLIONS for the pain and suffering they have caused my sons. (see Hannah Poling http://vran.org/in-the-news/the-hannah-poling-case-the-us-government-concedes-vaccine-autism-link/ )
What if I just posted lots of “Greeking” and you sent me a “cut” of the profits through PAY PAL? This would be morally just. My older son could use some money to help cover his meds, taken as A RESULT OF THIMEROSAL POISONING. It’s the least you could do.

It’s poetry. That is why you can’t understand it.

No, I think the problem is that it’s incomprehensibly stupid.

Everyone in Atlanta gets the bacon reference.

I would urge you to immediately stand on a street corner demanding that people read it and then report back on how many people “get it.”

“Poor, poor” = emphasis, auditory rhythm

“Auditory rhythm”? You completely screwed up the meter, just as you did all the way through. You’re simply not good at this.

After all, they do owe my family MILLIONS for the pain and suffering they have caused my sons.

You give off a pretty strong impression that the only reason they’d be seeking another defendant is that you’re judgment-proof.

Interestingly, the Polings only live about 30 minutes from my house.

This post should be worth $100 at least!

“The standard Lorem Ipsum passage, used since the 1500s”

“Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.”

Section 1.10.32 of “de Finibus Bonorum et Malorum”, written by Cicero in 45 BC

“Sed ut perspiciatis unde omnis iste natus error sit voluptatem accusantium doloremque laudantium, totam rem aperiam, eaque ipsa quae ab illo inventore veritatis et quasi architecto beatae vitae dicta sunt explicabo. Nemo enim ipsam voluptatem quia voluptas sit aspernatur aut odit aut fugit, sed quia consequuntur magni dolores eos qui ratione voluptatem sequi nesciunt. Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur? Quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit qui in ea voluptate velit esse quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum qui dolorem eum fugiat quo voluptas nulla pariatur?”

1914 translation by H. Rackham

“But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure?”

Section 1.10.33 of “de Finibus Bonorum et Malorum”, written by Cicero in 45 BC

“At vero eos et accusamus et iusto odio dignissimos ducimus qui blanditiis praesentium voluptatum deleniti atque corrupti quos dolores et quas molestias excepturi sint occaecati cupiditate non provident, similique sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollitia animi, id est laborum et dolorum fuga. Et harum quidem rerum facilis est et expedita distinctio. Nam libero tempore, cum soluta nobis est eligendi optio cumque nihil impedit quo minus id quod maxime placeat facere possimus, omnis voluptas assumenda est, omnis dolor repellendus. Temporibus autem quibusdam et aut officiis debitis aut rerum necessitatibus saepe eveniet ut et voluptates repudiandae sint et molestiae non recusandae. Itaque earum rerum hic tenetur a sapiente delectus, ut aut reiciendis voluptatibus maiores alias consequatur aut perferendis doloribus asperiores repellat.”

1914 translation by H. Rackham

“On the other hand, we denounce with righteous indignation and dislike men who are so beguiled and demoralized by the charms of pleasure of the moment, so blinded by desire, that they cannot foresee the pain and trouble that are bound to ensue; and equal blame belongs to those who fail in their duty through weakness of will, which is the same as saying through shrinking from toil and pain. These cases are perfectly simple and easy to distinguish. In a free hour, when our power of choice is untrammelled and when nothing prevents our being able to do what we like best, every pleasure is to be welcomed and every pain avoided. But in certain circumstances and owing to the claims of duty or the obligations of business it will frequently occur that pleasures have to be repudiated and annoyances accepted. The wise man therefore always holds in these matters to this principle of selection: he rejects pleasures to secure other greater pleasures, or else he endures pains to avoid worse pains.”

@ KREEPY OZONE

I anxiously await an answer to my offer. I have many friends. We could form an “anti-vaxxer poster ring” JUST LIKE that “PEER REVIEW” ring! But we can’t get busted. We have done nothing wrong. IT’S CALLED JUSTICE. Give me an answer soon, or I’ll take my words to A MORE PROFITABLE BLOG. Thanks.

Yes, dear, I am well aware of that poem. Your “parody” is stupid and it also doesn’t even scan.

@Kreepy Ozone
I grow weary of waiting for your answer.
Here is a dollar tip. Don’t choke on the hotdog.

Bye

@LW
A poem just for you!

“The Final Solution”

FOR all who long and thirst amidst the rushing waters,
Drowning in Death’s desire.
Crushing waters over mossy mica flecked stones ensnare us from lung-filling life.
The sand colored sky mocks and weighs our skin-clothed dwelling down, down to the Abyss.
Silent screams ripple upward, concentric circles in the cacophony of roaring waters.
Is there an ear to hear?

GIVE, do not lend me your ears, saith the blue-sky God.
I hear the sound of your fury, yet
Our still small voice will whisper congruent words of comfort (Truth).
Would you free also, your captive companions from that wretched water-grave?
Yet, you say the swirl of muddy waters occulted them from your gaze.
Now you see with Gulf-green eyes and sorrow at the price of your water-logged Sacrifice.
Will you pay? Thy will be done.

NESS is necessary to forgive. That cross-shaped promontory pierces the ocean of pain,
Reaching out as a wooden life raft.
I lift up my eyes and arms from the dreary depths and grasp at the raft of Life.
Yet my strength-sapped body hesitates, groping downward for my struggling soul-mate.
Finally, the weight of my pride-anchor is lifted.
Together we swim toward the Final Solution.

Matthew 6:14
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

Johnny@346 and Scottynuke@347:

You don’t owe me a new keyboard but the spousal unit did want to know what was making me cackle uncontrollably.

So, you’re a racist, neo-nazi dick. Why am I not surprised. Also, you misuse quotations, and you’re horrible at poetry. (Protip, GOD doesn’t want people to be happy or to have pleasure. Anyone who claims otherwise is a liar.)

@Toto

This has certainly been entertaining. I came here following links re ebola cures and fall down the vaccine rabbit hole. A couple of comments then I’ll quietly lurk in the background. I have five kids, all of whom were vaccinated. As was I and my wife and our eight collective siblings.

I am a practicing Christian – a true believer – and appreciate reading skeptics’ points of view because they make me reevaluate my beliefs. I continue to believe. I am also an attorney, so evaluating facts daily is what I do. With no predisposed views either way on vaccination, except for the disclaimer that my entire family is vaccinated, I read every comment up to making this one, followed the links where appropriate, and I am not persuaded that vaccines cause autism, nor am I persuaded that it is a good idea to not vaccinate children. In fact, I shudder at the thought of what might have happened if any of my children weren’t.

I would sum up my several hours (my entire day, in fact) reviewing this topic as follows: there is an extensive body of credible evidence supporting the benefits vaccination of children; there are few outlier studies – ones that must exist because of statistical anomalies – that suggest otherwise but whose results have not been replicated; and there is a lot of posturing and name calling by those who believe vaccination is harmful. These latter might cite to outlier studies, but there is no credible science behind their claims.

As for conspiracies that big pharma controls these studies, I believe that the funding agent of any study influences that study to some degree. However, as a criminal defense attorney practicing since 1984, the one truth I have learned is that it is impossible for conspiracies to stay secret. The one exception would appear to be Jimmy Hoffa’s fate, but I fully expect that to come to light eventually. If you’ve ever worked in a large company – government, hospital, university – there are no secrets for long. People talk. That is a simple fact. Including Thompson. But I find no persuasive evidence in his brief comments that anything sinister or even innocently harmful happened back in 2004.

For what it’s worth, we trial dogs – meaning those who spend every day in the courtroom – get pretty good at calling verdicts before they get returned. This jury of one, based purely on the evidence presented by both sides, finds in favor of vaccination. I don’t think there will ever be a day in court for the naysayers. And no name calling, please.

Los Enigmas —

You’ve asked me what the lobster is weaving there with
his golden feet?
I reply, the ocean knows this.

You say, what is the ascidia waiting for in its transparent
bell? What is it waiting for?
I tell you it is waiting for time, like you.

You ask me whom the Macrocystis alga hugs in its arms?
Study, study it, at a certain hour, in a certain sea I know.

You question me about the wicked tusk of the narwhal,
and I reply by describing how the sea unicorn with the
harpoon in it dies.

You enquire about the kingfisher’s feathers,
which tremble in the pure springs of the southern tides?
Or you’ve found in the cards a new question touching on
the crystal architecture of the sea anemone, and you’ll
deal that to me now?

You want to understand the electric nature of the ocean
spines?
The armored stalactite that breaks as it walks?
The hook of the angler fish, the music stretched out
in the deep places like a thread in the water?

I want to tell you the ocean knows this, that life in its
jewel boxes is endless as the sand, impossible to count, pure,
and among the blood-colored grapes time has made the
petal hard and shiny, made the jellyfish full of light
and untied its knot, letting its musical threads fall
from a horn of plenty made of infinite mother-of-pearl.

I am nothing but the empty net which has gone on ahead
of human eyes, dead in those darknesses,
of fingers accustomed to the triangle, longitudes
on the timid globe of an orange.

I walked around as you do, investigating
the endless star,
and in my net, during the night, I woke up naked,
the only thing caught, a fish trapped inside the wind.

Pablo Neruda (translation of Robert Bly)

derps.

Give me an answer soon, or I’ll take my words to A MORE PROFITABLE BLOG.

I’d kick in a Lincoln if you would take your florid mental illness someplace else, if you hadn’t already demonstrated that you can’t stick a flounce. And aren’t competent to enter into a contract anyway.

“was making me cackle uncontrollably.”
“So, you’re a racist, neo-nazi dick.”

Wow. Emotions were stirred.
Isn’t that the goal of all great art?
I don’t think a cross sitting in a jar of pee would get such a response!

Perhaps I can get some government funding for my next projects.

@ Kreepy Ozone/NORAD
“You promised Greek, dumbass”

Wow. 30 minutes, and that is the only “quip” you could muster?
You really do need my help.
Team up with me, AND WE CAN MAKE MILLIONS!
The blog-o-sphere is ours to conquer!

Wow. 30 minutes, and that is the only “quip” you could muster?

Honeybunch, if you’re under the impression that the time elapsed between when you press “submit” has any bearing on the time spent responding to you, you’re in worse shape than I thought.

See what words you can come up with.

Digital
Incognito
Gregarious
Isolated
Territorial
Assertive
Lurid

Masked
Autonomous
Secretive
Kilobiter

“THE NAKED AUTHOR STRIPS AUTISM BARE”

“Vaccine manufacturers had already begun to phase thimerosal out of injections given to American infants — but they continued to sell off their mercury-based supplies of vaccines until last year [2004]. The CDC and FDA gave them a hand, buying up the tainted vaccines for export to developing countries and allowing drug companies to continue using the preservative in some American vaccines — including several pediatric flu shots as well as tetanus boosters routinely given to eleven-year-olds.”
http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/03/the-naked-autho.html

well, well, well,

I get to wonder which psychiatric aisle was closed off lately?

pass the popcorn 😀

Al

MOM COMES OUT OF THE REFRIGERATOR:

“Isn’t it time we expended a little more effort trying to really figure this thing out, and a little less of same calling the parents who are doing their best to make sense of and cope with the horrors of this disorder idiots? I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’m pretty fucking sick of being told how stupid I am. I won’t hold my breath waiting for that to change any time soon. Meanwhile: smoke ’em if you got ’em.”
http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/03/the-naked-autho.html

@Alain
I auto-tuned your post. Hope you like it. Just add your own imaginary tune.

well, well, well,
I get to wonder
well, well, well,
I get to wonder which
(pass the popcorn,) I SAID
(pass the popcorn,) YEAH, YEAH
which, which, witch psy chi at ric
which, which, witch psy chi at ric
which, which, witch psy chi at ric
a ai ai ai is l l l le was closed off
Lately?
(please pass the popcorn) I SAID
(pass the popcorn,) YEAH, YEAH, YEAH
which psychiatric isle was closed off lately?
which psychiatric isle was closed off lately?
which psychiatric isle was closed off lately?
well, well, well
are YOU well?

This is my all-time favorite:

Interestingly, the Polings only live about 30 minutes from my house.

If you drive 140 miles per hour. Or don’t live in Atlanta, whatever.

@NORAD
Why do you assume I have only one house?
Is your last name Orenstein by any chance?

Shhhh. Listen! I think that was your carers getting back? Don’t let them catch you using daddies computer.

“Shhhh. Listen! I think that was your carers getting back? Don’t let them catch you using daddies computer.”

Translated into American Standard English:
“Shut up! I think I hear the babysitter. Don’t let her catch you on Dad’s MacBook Pro.”

You are so stuffy, down under/across the pond.
A little embarrassing.

If I bother you, GOOD!
Your poisons have bothered my family for 27 years.

This is dedicated to all the autistics who have had a normal night’s sleep robbed from them…..

The OLD ad campaign:

This, by the way, was created by the wife of a co-worker and UGA grad.

I am not Anonymous. Expect me.

A R E Y O U I R R I T A T E D N O W???????
GOOD! GOOD! GOOD! GOOD! GOOD!

Not irritated, just very very sad for all the people who have to put up with you in RL.

This isn’t just a fantastic payday for me, but should anyone come across this thread wondering if the people who claim vaccine are dangerous are credible, the message is crystal clear.

Thanks Toto. You make the pro-vaccine case much more persuasively than I ever could.

It’s surprising how many antivaxxers and pseudoscience supporters start off here sounding fairly sane, and then flip out completely. Like Toto.

@LW – they have a very thin veneer of relative sanity, which is really only maintained as long as their beliefs are recognized and validated by others.

When they are challenged to support their beliefs with actual evidence & facts, they quickly devolve into the absolute mess of convoluted ideas, “The Truth,” and conspiracy theories that are the underpinnings of those beliefs….hence them appearing to fall apart into crazy pretty quickly.

You see the exact same process at AoA – where, at first blush, their collective beliefs seem to be reasonable – but when challenged, they quickly “bring the crazy.”

Quoth Toto, “Every Child Is Normal before their first shots.”

No. I was told by an older family member that when she was a small child, two of her much older cousins, born in the 1870s, were completely non-verbal. They were not deaf; the family had confirmed that. They were just non-verbal. There was no treatment and the family had no idea what to do, so they just cared for these two until the two died in their sixties — a ripe old age for the time, but still before “autism” was identified as a separate condition.

I always think of those two when antivaxxers come in here claiming that autism never existed before routine infant vaccinations.

@LW – or the tens of thousands of “mentally-handicapped” individuals that were routinely shut away in Private / Public institutions under blanket diagnoses (no differentiation much at all)…which probably included a very high percentage of those that we would consider mildly to severely autistic today.

Anti-vaxxers claim they never saw these children in the past (never saw them in schools) and conveniently leave out the part where mainstreaming is relatively recent…so of course these kids would not have been in school with them.

Their ability, Orwellian in nature, to rewrite the past to fit their own convenient narrative, is very depressing – their lack of self-awareness is even more stunning (and the blatantly hypocrisy of their various anti-vax positions as well).

Lawrence, I think you’re right.

I’m assuming Toto was spamming in the hope of getting banned, so he could claim censorship rather than face the taunting task of actually having to try to justify his claims.

Every Child Is Normal before their first shots.

Surely no-one really believes anything so moronic, do they? There are hundreds* of conditions children can get that are undoubtedly nothing to do with vaccines. There are even many unvaccinated children with autism (see that Generation Rescue phone survey for example). But then I find myself trying to figure out what motivation anyone has for making such a dumb claim. It’s odd.

* Maybe thousands. When I was working nights in the path lab I would sometimes browse through an enormous book about inborn errors of metabolism. It sometimes amazes me that any of us are “normal” at all.

Me Three

One of my friends in my Human Genetics class was a Mom and she was so glad she had kids before the class as once you know all that can go wrong it seems amazing how often it actually goes right.

Yet for some reason some people seem to believe all children would always be completely perfect or at least well above average unless something external screws them up. Our internal can cause quite enough problems on its own.

I also don’t understand how all the stories of changelings and aunts/uncles/cousins locked away in the attic or later on in the institution just somehow fits with all children were always born perfect until… I mean a lot of the monsters of old make a fair amount of sense of why someone thought it up when you look at any picture book of birth defects.

Consider the proverbial “village idiot”. Why did that concept even exist if every child was normal in those halcyon days before vaccination? Well, some of them probably *were* normal before they caught one of those “harmless” childhood diseases that antivaxxers like Toto are so eager to bring back, but some of them were just born that way.

I know the term “idiot” is offensive and I only bring it up in the context of pointing out that there must have been a reason that the term “village idiot” became proverbial, and it is not because every child was normal before vaccines.

Give me an answer soon, or I’ll take my words to A MORE PROFITABLE BLOG.

Two comments later:

I grow weary of waiting for your answer.
Here is a dollar tip. Don’t choke on the hotdog.

Bye

It didn’t even try to stick this second flounce.

@ gaist

I’m assuming Toto was spamming in the hope of getting banned

That, and maybe also a strong victimhood/martyrdom complex.

Feeling maudlin, philosophical and a bit self-analytic now, so here is my take:

When the universe has been unfair to someone (and the universe is unfair to everybody), that someone may found solace in being recognized as a victim. Socially speaking, it’s as important as recognizing right from wrong, that ought to happen from that ought not.

And due to the emotional baggage around all this, one may become very touchy whenever its victim status is questioned. Even if people are just suggesting that, maybe, the victim is wrong about who the real culprit is.
Happens quite often whenever an assault case is re-open and someone else was found to be the real perpetrator. No, it has to be the first guy.
Notice here how it has to be the mercury, even if Thompson’s study was about vaccines which do not contain mercury.

Thus there is a real risk of withdrawal into one’s personal world. One self and its own issues become the only things which matter. Everybody else is either an ally, or a vicious foe out to make things worse.

There are many regulars on RI who have, or had relatives with disabilities. They don’t put forward this as a pretext to berate people, like Toto did with its name calling and childlike “are you irritated” spam. These people, and their relatives, are nevertheless as much victims of the universe’s unfairness as Toto is. That doesn’t stop them from having time for other topics, notably for showing concern over other people’s plights.
But I doubt Toto will ever empathize with them. He/she is too far entrenched in its certitude. It is the sole victim here, and we, amorphous we, are all guilty.

I suspect that there is also some aspect of narcissism to it. It exaggerates the us vs them issues we all tend to have factory installed.

When that unfairness becomes only my unfair situation counts and I have it infinitely worse than any other person and there can be no suffering by anyone but me.

Strangely I’ve seen people like this be wonderful with anyone they consider to be themselves no matter how destructive they can be to anyone who isn’t allowed into the inner circle. I just wonder why the entourage some people like this collect can’t see that it is only a matter of time before they go from inner circle (us) to them status and will get exactly the treatment they always overlook or worse applaud.

A spammer and a plagiarist: though most plagiarists don’t ask to be paid in the same post where they credit the author whose words they are using.

Memo to our orbital overlords: While Toto is of course not on your payroll, you might want to throw a little something to the Fundacion Neruda.

I know a woman who is only about 60 now who was inspired in her youth to work with severely disabled children, especially those who couldn’t speak:

she grew up in an ethnic community which included immigrants who had arrived in different eras; although they lived in a rather sophisticated place, quite a few of the older women never learned to speak English. Because these families were not well-integrated into the more prevalent culture for a long time, many did not institutionalise disabled children when this was most common.

She knew of elderly women who were caregivers for severely disabled ( ID, SMI) adult children, nieces, nephews and grand-children- who now had health issues of their own and not much assistance. She thought that there had to be some type of help for all family members and went ahead to acquire the degrees and certificates necessary to her calling.

“It sometimes amazes me that any of us are normal at all”

Oh, they’re just typically normal
No, this is not manly
Well, it is unusual, well, it’s like a rabbit
He’s got a head on him like a rabbit

We are normal
And we want our freedom
We are normal
And we want our freedom

– Bonzo Dog Band

I am looking forward to the mini-antivax eruption when Nova runs its show on vaccine refusal and its consequences, Wednesday at 9 p.m.

Not irritated, just very very sad for all the people who have to put up with you in RL.older cousins, born in the 1870s, were completely non-verbal. They were not deaf; the family had confirmed that. They were just non-verbal. There was no treatment and the family had no idea what to do, so they just cared for these two until the two died in their sixties — a ripe old age for the time,children, nieces, nephews and grand-children- who now had health issues of their own and not much assistance. She thought thA spammer and a plagiarist: though most plagiarists don’t ask to be paid in the same post where they creno matter how destructive they can be to anyone who isn’t allowed into the inner circle. I just wonder why the entourage some people like this collect can’t see that it is only a matter of time before they go from inner circlequite often whenever an assault case is re-open and someone else was found to be the real perpetrator. No, it has to be the first guy.Notice here how it has to be the mercury, even if Thomits victim status is questioned. Even if people are just suggesting that, maybe, the victim is wrong about who the real culprit is.Happens quite often whenever an ass due to the emotional baggage around all this, one may become very touchy whenever its victim status is questioned. Even if people are just suggesting that, maybe, the victim is wrong about who the real culprit is.Happens quite often whenever an ass Consider the proverbial “village idiot” itions children can get that are undoubtedly nothing to do with vaccines. There are even many unvaccinated children with autism (see that Generation Rescue phone survey for example). Mercury in flu womb shots Butt Maybe thousands. When I was working nights in the path lab I would hear voices sometimes browse through an enormous book about ass never learned to speak standard American English It exaggerates ass Memo to our orbital overlords: While Toto is of course not on your payroll, should be Pure genius Not ass like us Notice here how it has to be the mercury, because Thompson clearly made the connection on the phone many of us here should be institutionalized “are you irritated”?
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!

Thanks for the free greeking guys! I think I’m on to a real moneymaking idea for your word count. RECYCLED POSTS!

This, by the way, was created by the wife of a co-worker and UGA grad.

Brian Maiolo? (The other co-creator was art director Gina Cruz.)

Something tells me you’re unclear on yet another concept.

You probably won’t “approve” this comment, but just wanted you to know we’ve seen through your fake “Toto” identity, Orac. It’s obvious that the only comments that appear on this blog are big-pharma approved, so when “Toto” makes fun of us vaccine-safety advocates with his garbage, we know he’s really you (or one of your shills) trying to make us look bad. It won’t work…

The Great Dane gets put in the kennel so the yapping chihuahuas don’t get stepped on. LOL!
http://www.dreamstime.com/royalty-free-stock-images-chocolate-brown-chihuahua-dog-making-step-forward-image22756769

By the way, here is a potential money maker: BOUNTY HUNTING!

Does anyone have any connections in Denmark? Frequent Flyer miles? I am working on getting Atlantans to crowd source a $10,000 reward to bring this thief back to Atlanta to face charges. After all, he stole a cool $1 million from us!

“OIG Fugitive: Poul Thorsen
Poul Thorsen
From approximately February 2004 until February 2010, Poul Thorsen executed a scheme to steal grant money awarded by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). CDC had awarded grant money to Denmark for research involving infant disabilities, autism, genetic disorders, and fetal alcohol syndrome. CDC awarded the grant to fund studies of the relationship between autism and the exposure to vaccines, the relationship between cerebral palsy and infection during pregnancy, and the relationship between developmental outcomes and fetal alcohol exposure.
Thorsen worked as a visiting scientist at CDC, Division of Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities, before the grant was awarded.
The initial grant was awarded to the Danish Medical Research Council. In approximately 2007, a second grant was awarded to the Danish Agency for Science, Technology, and Innovation. Both agencies are governmental agencies in Denmark. The research was done by the Aarhaus University and Odense University Hospital in Denmark.
Thorsen allegedly diverted over $1 million of the CDC grant money to his own personal bank account. Thorsen submitted fraudulent invoices on CDC letterhead to medical facilities assisting in the research for reimbursement of work allegedly covered by the grants. The invoices were addressed to Aarhaus University and Sahlgrenska University Hospital. The fact that the invoices were on CDC letterhead made it appear that CDC was requesting the money from Aarhaus University and Sahlgrenska University Hospital although the bank account listed on the invoices belonged to Thorsen.
In April 2011, Thorsen was indicted on 22 counts of Wire Fraud and Money Laundering.
According to bank account records, Thorsen purchased a home in Atlanta, a Harley Davidson motorcycle, an Audi automobile, and a Honda SUV with funds that he received from the CDC grants.
Thorsen is currently in Denmark and is awaiting extradition to the United States.”

From what I hear, he’s living free as a bird in Denmark. Should be an easy catch.
ANY TAKERS? You could quit this low-life gig. Make some serious money.

I doubt that it’ll be a mini-eruption, oh Dangerous One- they have them every other day- perhaps a nother unremitting pyroclastic flow will occur like it did *apres* Thompson.

At any rate,I wonder why Toto doesn’t discuss his 4 children in more detail- sans identifying characterics like names, schools they attend. their precise location, of course- but why doesn’t he tell us:
how old they are, what TYPE of educations they’re receiving currently, if they are boys or girls, what type of ASD they have, if they have other issues – like epilepsy etc. How did he learn each one was autistic…
that’s not much to ask, is it?

I think Toto has completely flipped out and is incapable of answering or even reading Denice’s questions.

Bonzo Dog Band
You’ve seen me dancing topless and kipping on the beach.
I’m so bloody normal, yet I’m one of nature’s freaks.

@LW – yeah, he’s just about hit rock-bottom….seems like he actually believes people get paid on here for the word or something….

Guess I hit a sensitive spot.
Poul Thorsen is FORBIDDEN?

Speaks volumes. I think my scheme will work. In this bad economy, $10,000 is a big carrot. Maybe our family could throw in the frequent flyer miles.
THE PERILS OF POUL
This would make a great REALITY SHOW. Of course, the finale is seeing his face behind bars in the Fulton County jail. Lots of African Americans there for companionship.

Toto, you’ve been such a good lil’ helper around here, just post your credit card information here with the security code and we can process your emolument and send you your first paycheck ASAP.

Except on second thought don’t.

Re: 421

This is the second time in just over a week I’ve run across the word ‘carer’. The first was last weeks Doctor Who, where the dialog was something like this

Doctor: This is Clara, she’s not my assistant, she’s something else.
Clara: I’m his carer.
Doctor: Yeah, my carer. She cares so I don’t have to.

(The new Doctor isn’t warm and cuddly. I like him.)

I thought it was a bit of an awkward joke, but it turns out it’s just a bit of Brit-speak I was previously unaware of.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caregiver

RI – where even the insults are educational.

I’ve shown people toto’s comments where I live and volunteer at, and they agree to a man (and woman) that if toto is an example of the anti-vax movement, that they have nothing to stand on.

Also, I agree, toto’s posts have been a great source of merriment. I did need the laughs anyways.

You probably won’t “approve” this comment, but just wanted you to know we’ve seen through your fake “Toto” identity, Orac.

Pattimmy Bolen is way ahead of you.

Every child Is Normal (before their first shots or not) negates the concept of “normal.”

Anyone else wonder if Toto is that poster (g-some-numbers)who suggested running grey-ops?

Re Narad’s quote.

Perhaps I should have actually read Toto’s comments.

However, my eyes glazed over some time last week.

“Brian Maiolo? (The other co-creator was art director Gina Cruz.)
Something tells me you’re unclear on yet another concept.”
They just produced the commercials. Neither came up with the tag line, “can you hear me now?”
You can’t get there from Google.

“I thought it was a bit of an awkward joke, but it turns out it’s just a bit of Brit-speak I was previously unaware of.”

If you have to explain your joke, it isn’t.
Next time, just post the appropriate clip from Dr. Who.
I thought the clapping coconuts in “Monty Python and the Holy Grail” was far funnier……

“I’ve shown people toto’s comments where I live and volunteer at”
“I agree, toto’s posts have been a great source of merriment.”

I am always glad to brighten the day for the downtrodden and unemployed. Hang in there. That “volunteer” job may eventually translate into minimum wage. I’m praying for you.

At any rate, I actually ENJOY being a figment of a surgeon scientists’s imagination especially since I have achieved a partially independent consciousness and self-awareness and have discovered other fellow and sister co-creatures with whom to interact. -btw- we give great cocktail parties.

Shows an extreme lack of self-awareness, like they’ve never even read the typical anti-vax comments on AoA.

Thanks guys!
I had no idea my acrostic poem would be so well received!
I think I’ll submit it to Poetry dot com. Maybe I’ll make Poet Laureate! For those less talented, don’t despair. In the age of high tech computers, you too can be an acrostic wizard:
http://www.acrosticpoem.org

I look forward to seeing your results. Poetry seems to lift the “nice level” a few notches on this blog.

To Censor:
I hope you realize that I videotape myself making my posts live. I then show all of my censored posts. It makes a nice upload for anti-vax sites. You’ve been a great help today. SMILE FOR THE CAMERA!

“T is for Terrific, so awesome
O is for Open-minded, able to consider new perspectives
T is for Tasteful, odes of style
O is for Open-hearted, filled with generosity”

You can’t make this up! The above acrostic was created by the
computer acrostic generator.

Kaymarie: Yet for some reason some people seem to believe all children would always be completely perfect or at least well above average unless something external screws them up.

Part of being an anti-vaxxer is denying that genes exist. These people are so convinced their crap doesn’t stink that they overlook any family history. They also tend to believe they can do anything, even though they’re such little balls of hatred that it spills into all they attempt to do. (Kinda explains why anything published by an anti-vaxxer is awful.)

A R E Y O U I R R I T A T E D N O W???????

No, I have long experience putting up with performances of your flavor of mental illness, and from people that I actually care about. You’re just a random asshοle from my perspective.

Dr. Orenstein’s name just keeps popping up in all the wrong places…

“Not all of Dr. Simpson’s correspondence was well received, and in fact some of it was quite comical. A Swedish Doctor, Dr. Marta Granstrom, responded in this email this email to Dr. Simpson with a clear point of view on thimerosal:

“I am very well aware of the recent concerns in the US over thiomersal (an alternative name for thimerosal). On the expert committee of the European Pharmacopoeae I represent Sweden and had in vain tried to get Europe to ban its use in single dose vials until the US interest in the issue…I thanked Neal Halsey [AAP member who spearheaded the joint statement in 1999] in the name of European infants for the help when I met him again last year.”

By August, Dr. Simpson was getting desperate as she lamented in an email that, “events have slightly accelerated with Walt’s return [Walter Orenstein, Director of the NIP] and anxiety over trying to get these data. Consequently, we are TENTATIVELY planning for you and I to go to Denmark and Sweden on August 22…if a trip is to occur in time for the IOM it has to be in this time frame.”

In many ways, the trip to Sweden and Denmark was Dr. Simpson’s last shot at finding data, as her August 6 email shows:

“Should we find that any other country has good data on both autism and vaccines, we will work to get that data on a case by case basis. i.e., I don’t know what we are going to do and don’t want to think about it right now- but we will do something.”
http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/03/frantic-cdcs-dr-diane-simpson-travels-the-world-to-find-dr-poul-thorsen.html
Frantic: CDC’s Dr. Diane Simpson Travels the World to Find Dr. Poul Thorsen

“but we will do something”
Like pay Poul $1 million?
Who was the CDC insider mentioned in the Grand Jury docs.?

@NoGonad
“Not falling for Toto

September 7, 2014
You probably won’t “approve” this comment, but just wanted you to know we’ve seen through your fake “Toto” identity, Orac. It’s obvious that the only comments that appear on this blog are big-pharma approved, so when “Toto” makes fun of us vaccine-safety advocates with his garbage, we know he’s really you (or one of your shills) trying to make us look bad. It won’t work…”

Desperate measures for desperate vax shills. LOL!
A great entertainment value for my video.

“Full emails from top CDC officials, that in context would suggest that they were point blank ordering CDC minions to exonerate Thimerosal at all costs, have been completely redacted (covered by black marker). Emails from Roger Bernier (CSO of the National Immunization Program of the CDC) and WALT ORENSTEIN (Director of the National Immunization Program of the CDC) are consistently FULLY REDACTED. If we get at all the email traffic, I believe we will more clearly see the collusion to commit fraud on all the studies.” (EMPHASIS MINE)
http://www.bolenreport.com/Mark%20Geier/foiasuit3.htm#sthash.zfxjjTBc.dpuf
LET’S HAVE A LOOK AT THAT CDC BACKUP HARD DRIVE, WALT.
My acrostic must have been prophetic!

Ya’ll were so much more satiating when it was just bad poetry. Really. Really, really…

Here’s one a little different. A mystery, if thou wilst — Who was kilt??

Waves of Grain — Timbuk3 Edge of Allegiance 1989

It was a nice clean assassination
The gunman slipped through immigration
Like the gentle wind that swept the plain
And ruffled over waves of grain

Sailing safely out of sight
On board the next connecting flight
The gunman smiled, he felt no pain
So high above the waves of grain

Then someone snatched the video-8
From the hands of a tourist at the gate
And soon a blast on board the plane
Sent it crashing into the waves of grain

The blown up stills told the story
Large as life in all its glory
A man’s face in the 29th frame
Appeared within the waves of grain

Now the pictures have been confiscated
The tourist was incarcerated
The drugs they gave him numbed his brain
Now all he sees are waves of grain

Now rummaging through the ravaged rubble
I wonder is it worth the trouble?
Does the slightest trace of truth remain
Running through the waves of grain.

—————————–
(a little hint to get ya’ll started):
*video-8 — helical scan magnetic tape storage format introduced in 1985

*and soon a blast on board the plane* — As the storyteller’s clock is good enough to know the 29’th frame from Pier 29, then *soon* may just as well be read as “simultaneous”:: Could the *blast* represent magnetic erasure of the *plane*, that is to say the surface of the tape — *on* the *plane*???

*sent it crashing into the waves of grain* Data is still there, just obscured by 60Hz field from demagnitizer unit {altered tape is possibly still in public domain}.
——————————————-

{Sorry for flooding the thread, and all. It’s just that, sometimes, adult autists need something to chew on besides tripe.}

WE’RE IN THE BLACK!
R is for Radical, overthrowing norms
E is for Ethical….NOT
D is for Dereliction of duty
A is for Admission of guilt, we’re still waiting
C is for Conscience…..none
T is for Tenacious, not one to give up
E is for Efficient, successful at covering up
D is for Daring, succeeding in things others fear to try

Thanks to http://www.acrosticpoem.org

@ PGP:

Right you are!
Gene denialism is part and parcel of altie folklore:
people suffer illnesses or disabilities ENTIRELY because of diet or toxins or radiation
as if negative outcomes – including death- are the result of welcoming external malevolence** -not something inherent in life itself.

** taboo substances like alcohol, GMOs, sugar, wheat, milk, meats, other treats AND vaccines
and probably witchcraft as performed by doctors, nurses etc.
-btw- according to the woo-meister general, each alcoholic drink kills one million brain cells-
which leads me to ask why non-drinkers like him are so dim in comparison to drinkers like us?

*Storyteller is someone which not only knows the truth but has access to the source of it.

*Rummaging* — He’s looking for something he already knows but its *ravaged* and may not be put back together where others accept the *truth*.

*trouble* — some risk cost/benifit…

*running through…* rifling the files, possibly looking for the witness amongst the surfs.

I hope you realize that I videotape myself making my posts live. I then show all of my censored posts. It makes a nice upload for anti-vax sites. You’ve been a great help today. SMILE FOR THE CAMERA!

You’re not being censored. You’e being slowed down because you’ve become too obnoxious in your flooding of the thread. Think of it as something similar to what cell phone companies do when they throttle your data speed. Your posts will be approved…eventually. The more posts you try, though, the longer I’ll let them stay in the moderation queue before approving them.

By Post Author

“Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent’s posterior about his copious verbal meanderings”

You are absolutely correct Orac. So why did you write further and waste perfectly good pixels?
Didn’t you see my video post? You have been defeated. With a video camera.
WHOWHOWHOHAHAHAHA!

I hope you realize that I videotape myself making my posts live. I then show all of my censored posts. It makes a nice upload for anti-vax sites. You’ve been a great help today. SMILE FOR THE CAMERA!

So, from the lack of said videos we can tell that the pro-vaxxers are exceedingly tolerant folk, don’t you agree?

“The more posts you try, though, the longer I’ll let them stay in the moderation queue before approving them.”
Are you a Thimerosal baby too? Neuron synapses firing a little slowly?
I’ l l t y p e m o r e s l o w l
y .

“So, from the lack of said videos we can tell that the pro-vaxxers are exceedingly tolerant folk, don’t you agree?”

In the States there is a huge home school network. Off your radar, but not ours. Moms with young kids are the target audience. They have vaccine choice. We help them make an informed one.
HOHOHOHOHOHOHO!

Tim has inspired another acrostic!

D is for Daring, succeeding in things others fear to try
E is for Excellent, of the finest character
M is for Meticulous, careful with details
A is for Altruistic, you place others before yourself
G is for Genteel, elegantly mannered
N is for Noble, an honorable heart
I is for Independent, an original thinker
T is for Terrific, so awesome
I is for Important, an asset to society
Z is for Zealous, brimming with enthusiasm
E is for Exciting, a thrill to be with
R is for Rare, you are a gem

U is for Unique, so very special
N is for Noble, self-sacrificing
I is for Industrious, commited to your work
T is for Tenacious, not one to give up

Johnny,

Speaking only for myself, I’d love to see those videos.

Trust me, one person with their underpants on their head is much like another.

Wasn’t Toto one of those little doggies that won’t stop yapping and nipping your ankles? Seems appropriate somehow, though I keep recalling the “spunk” at #233 which makes me smile, as a Brit.

@Johnny

MY brother could. Certainly not you. Our system is decentralized. It’s who you know. Creeps can’t infiltrate.
The tide is rising against you. You are blind to it.

Wow. I have a fun weekend and come back to catch up and find Toto completely losing it. But I have to admit. It still really makes me sad that some people are so desperate that they have to cling onto something like that, even when given the facts.

As far as family history: I had a relative, back in the “only vaccine is smallpox” days. He was probably autistic, as the family discussed him extensively in letters. He was “very bright”, “wouldn’t talk” and was “so naughty, you couldn’t take your eyes off him for a minute” as he would “get into all kinds of trouble”. He was institutionalized at age 10 or so, when his parents could no longer care for him, and he died in it 50 years later. So he never had an official diagnosis, as far as I know. And we also have many male relatives, long before most vaccines, who were “kinda strange” – didn’t read social cues well, fixated on different things, etc. Today, they probably would have ASD diagnoses. Back then, people just coped with the hand they were dealt and didn’t try to blame the conspiracies (although, there were rumors about changelings….. 🙂 )

Oh, and DW: can you speak to our Pharma Overlords? My check is late AGAIN, and a girl can’t go out on the town with young gents in style if she can’t afford to pay them, y’know….

They just produced the commercials. Neither came up with the tag line, “can you hear me now?”

Um, no, Peaches. That’s Maiolo, the copywriter. Neither he nor Cruz was one of the “producers.”

Perhaps when you get released after back from your promised car trip to visit Thompson at the CDC, you could E-mail him to clarify these roles for you.

Does anyone have any connections in Denmark?

I’m pretty sure most everybody here does, after a fashion.

Frequent Flyer miles?

Enough to be booked somewhere in the A/F/P buckets, were I traveling internationally.

I am working on getting Atlantans to crowd source a $10,000 reward to bring this thief back to Atlanta to face charges.

Do tell. How’s it coming along? Who’s going to be the “bounty hunter”? (Have you “crowdsourced” enough for a passport photo yet?) What gives you the impression that an international kidnaping would be successfully carried out with 10 grand and an award ticket?

I’m pretty sure most everybody here does, after a fashion.

I suppose most of us have attended one or more of those wild Pharma-funded parties at Comrade Thorsen’s mansion.

On board the next connecting flight
The gunman smiled, he felt no pain
So high above the waves of grain

CIA agents have bird names and knowledge unbeknownst (above) to the common masses.

He washed his hands of it (he thought) and flew away.

Come on, Giant Brainoracs…. you’re not even trying here!

What? You guys aren’t part of the “Paul Thorsen” safe house brigade?

It is like a timeshare, but instead of going on a vacation, you get the honor of hosting (and hiding) Thorsen for a week.

I’ll tell ya, he’s one heck of an UNO player.

opps, missed some…

aboard the next connecting flight

He handed this intel off to his successor…

Independent Lab ‘Confirms Viral DNA in Merck Vaccine’

“But, both of these ‘concerns’ were put to rest via data presented by Laurent Bélec at the 9th International Congress on Autoimmunity on March 26-30, 2014 in Nice, France. They published their findings in a paper titled, “Confirmation of the Creation of a Novel Molecule in Gardasil.”

Recently Lee SH showed that Gardasil® contained fragments of HPV-11 or HPV-18 DNA, evidenced by nested PCR, of unknown significance [J Inorg Biochem. 2012 Dec;117:85-92]. We herein looked by optimized single PCR in different batches of Gardasil® from France for HPV L1 DNA using MY09/MY11 degenerate and nondegenerate primers, for HPV E2 and E6 DNA genes, and for contaminating Saccharomyces cerevisiae DNA.”

Read more: http://naturalsociety.com/independent-lab-confirms-viral-dna-merck-vaccine/#ixzz3CgF5aBlL
Follow us: @naturalsociety on Twitter | NaturalSociety on Facebook

The blown up stills still told the story
Large as life in all its glory

fourier analysis, such as is used to extract usable radar imagery out of quadrature noise lifted the image.

” an international kidnaping ”

That is certainly a mischaracterization. Going over there and filming ones efforts to find him, show what he is up to now, and present the grand jury findings, would go a long way in putting international pressure on having him extradited to face charges in Atlanta. It would certainly help to publicly discredit his bogus “research” on vaccines/autism. Wakefield is now into cinematography, it would be a great project for him.
LOL!

“That’s Maiolo, the copywriter.”
Call him what you want. He didn’t write it. Otherwise, you would have posted a link. What you posted said no such thing. I know the inside story on this, and I’m sticking to it. Think what you want. You are irrelevant.

@NoGonad
“Not falling for Toto

I hate to break this to you, Bitsy, but I’m not “Not falling for Toto.”

@NoGonad
I posted that last night.

What, this?

A R E Y O U I R R I T A T E D N O W???????

So what? I haven’t seen any remittances from you through “PAY PAL” for a service-level agreement, so you”re stuck with what you get. I do note that you attempted to evade the actual message, though. Here, let me help:

No, I have long experience putting up with performances of your flavor of mental illness, and from people that I actually care about. You’re just a random asshοle from my perspective.

Can you hear me now?

To Censor:
I hope you realize that I videotape myself making my posts live. I then show all of my censored posts. It makes a nice upload for anti-vax sites. You’ve been a great help today. SMILE FOR THE CAMERA!

Why go through all this trouble when even the anti-vaxxers think you are too crackpot to be “one of them” and performing Olympic-level mental gymnastics to distance themselves from you.

My new ad campaign:

“Are you irritated now? GOOD!”

No 🙂

ARE YOU IRRITATED NOW? GOOOOOOOOOOD!

No 🙂

I am not Anonymous. Expect me.

A R E Y O U I R R I T A T E D N O W???????
GOOD! GOOD! GOOD! GOOD! GOOD!

No 🙂

See, all you say or anyone say to trigger negative emotion, absolutely won’t change my perception of myself, my value or how it feel good to be appreciated by most everyone I decide to include in my life. Everyone else, I drop them off from my life, and thus, you’re dropped in my ignore list 🙂

Alain

“Summary of the Critical Issue
The “—-Original Message—-”, dated: “Wed 13 11 2002 09:24”, from: Marlene Brieciet Lauritsen, (mailto: [email protected]), to: Poul Thorsen, Kreesten Meldgaargd Madsen and [email protected], subject: Manuscript about Thimerosal and autism, which, when speaking of autism in Denmark, clearly states: “But the incidence and prevalence are still decreasing in 2001”.
Thus, all of these individuals, Kreesten Meldgaargd Madsen, Marlene Brieciet Lauritsen, Poul Thorsen, and Diana Schendel, knew by the end of November 13, 2002, if not before, that the removal of the Thimerosal-preserved DTP vaccine from the Danish vaccination program had led to a decrease in the “incidence and prevalence” of autism in Denmark. Yet they all colluded with the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to submit a document for publication that made a knowingly false claim that the “rate” of autism increased after the Thimerosal-preserved vaccines were withdrawn for use in Denmark.”
http://mercury-freedrugs.org/docs/110927_ResponseToDanishCommitteeOnSciDishonesty_CombinedLetterExhibits_b.pdf

DATA SUPPLY CHAIN CHALLENGES

“Dear Poul….”
“….I need to tell you that the figures in the manuscripts do not include the latest data from 2001. I only have these figures as a paper version and they are at work..REDACTED…but the incidence and prevalence are still decreasing in 2001…REDACTED”
http://mercury-freedrugs.org/docs/110927_ResponseToDanishCommitteeOnSciDishonesty_CombinedLetterExhibits_b.pdf
http://www.ageofautism.com/2014/09/age-of-autism-weekly-wrap-the-screen-shot-gambit.html#comment-6a00d8357f3f2969e201a73e110ed6970d

@Toto #485

That was fucking lame, dude. If we’re going non-animae Nippo then it’s best to just blow it out the bunghole:

“and thus, you’re dropped in my ignore list”
G OO OOOOO OOOOOOO OOOOOOD!

Unfortunately, it won’t work. You can’t hide from your conscience. At least not on the day of Judgement.

COLLUSION?
“Summary of the Critical Issue
This e-mail confirms Dr. Thorsen’s role in getting article published as well as the assistance the CDC was providing to get the article published as soon as possible in 2003.
Poul Thorsen’s request : “… Could you or Coleen write a cover-letter underlining the importance of getting this information out now? Please do not mention the Journals name, as it is not finalized, Could you bring this letter with you when you come? See you soon’”
http://mercury-freedrugs.org/docs/110927_ResponseToDanishCommitteeOnSciDishonesty_CombinedLetterExhibits_b.pdf

“Summary of the Critical Issue
Letter shows the CDC’s use if influence at a high level (United States Assistant Surgeon General) to get this knowingly biased study published:
“Sincerely,
José F. Cordero, M.D., M.P.H. Assistant Surgeon General Director
National Center on Birth Defects
and Developmental Disabilities”
The letter cleverly states
“In addition, a key strength of the study is the ability to examine rates of autism prior to and after the discontinuation of vaccines containing thimerosal in Denmark in 1992. Contrary to what would be expected if thimerosal was linked to autism, the authors did not observe a decline in the rate of autism with the removal of thimerosal containing vaccines.”
In addition, the letter closes with:
“I feel this is a very important study that deserves thoughtful consideration by the Journal. Its findings provide one strong piece of evidence that thimerosal is not causally linked to autism. Thank you for your timely consideration.””
http://mercury-freedrugs.org/docs/110927_ResponseToDanishCommitteeOnSciDishonesty_CombinedLetterExhibits_b.pdf

Thanks scienceblogs for censoring this. Nice proof that you are in on the coverup of HARMING CHILDREN.

Tim has inspired another acrostic!

These are even worse examples of the genre than you started out with. Atlanta, you say? Well, it’s too late to fault Sherman for not finishing the job.

Anyway, I think I have something lying around on the subject. Hang on….

[does the dishes]

… OK, found it. I hope this pairs well with your own home video. Whenever that materializes.

@ usethebrain: Here’s where you should be posting your comments about vaccines.

Here are the statistics from the California Department of Public Health (current to September 2, 2014) about the major pertussis outbreaks in California. Note there were three infant deaths during 2014 (two infant death cases were early in the calendar year with disease onset during 2013):

http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/Documents/Pertussis_report_9-2-2014.pdf

I videotape myself making my posts live.

Is that what the kids are calling it these days?

Our system is decentralized. It’s who you know. Creeps can’t infiltrate.
The tide is rising against you. You are blind to it.

Ah, I see. You belong to a secret society of some fashion and have been so foolish as to advertise how its system is structured.

The problem here is that you have just conceded that you are No. 0.020833333.

Tell Poul Thorsen he has been found out.
On Friday he will be brought to justice.

“for not by will of man did ever prophecy come, but by the Holy Spirit borne on holy men of God spake.”

Toto, now that you’ve got that adorable little temper tantrum out of your system, how about answering some those questions people here have been asking you?

If you don’t want to do it for the betterment of mankind, or to rub it in our faces, then how about just to show that you even could?

utbggy,
I’m replying to your comments on the vitamin C ebola thread.

some doctors don’t offer all the recommended immunizations because of payment issues

If that’s true it’s shameful, but I don’t see what the shortcomings of the US healthcare system have to do with vaccine safety. Does that mean you accept that falling vaccine uptake (for whatever reason) is responsible for increased incidence of pertussis?

Do you really think the only children who have severe reactions have been reimbursed by the VAERS. Do you really believe that?

I assume you are asking if we think all children who have had severe vaccine reactions have been reimbursed by the Vaccine Court. We don’t know, any more than we know that every single injury compensated by the Vaccine Court was truly caused by vaccination. That’s why using the compensated cases is not a good way of determining the true incidence of vaccine injury.

Based on the evidence from vaccine safety studies and the VSD, I think the incidence of serious vaccine injury is very probably lower than the compensated Vaccine Court cases suggests. You clearly believe the opposite. What evidence is your belief based on?

Toto, now that you’ve got that adorable little temper tantrum out of your system,

I spoke too soon, ‘mafraid.

Antivaxxers like Toto should study the story of “The Boy Who Cried Wolf”. They have exaggerated harms, deceitfully minimized benefits, misrepresented, quote-mined, flung around wild and unsupported accusations, and outright lied, to the point where absolutely nothing they say can be trusted.

If Orac himself hadn’t confirmed that there was a question about Poul Thorsen, I would expect as a matter of course that he would turn out to be completely innocent, just based on the fact that a fruit-loop antivaxxer accused him of wrong-doing.

@DW….When I want intellectual stimulation, lots of fun overnight or whatever, it’s with men my own age. The young men are sheer window dressing and therefore, paid. (not really…I don’t actually go out with gigolos. If I had my check, I’d spend it on FAR more important things……)

Looking towards scheduling all sorts of shots with (hopefully) thimerosal soon. Unfortunately, my doctor likes the single dose stuff. (sulks) I’m due for flu shot, DTaP, and maybe an MMR as it seem to be coming around. Also will investigate the shingles vaccine…

Then someone snatched the video-8
From the hands of a tourist at the gate

Not *taken* but *hidden* — In the Running Man sense of sneaking in unedited content…..hmm….. It is much easier to visualize that if it’s a thumbdrive…. perhaps just the tape sans it’s housing??

When I want intellectual stimulation, lots of fun overnight or whatever, it’s with men my own age.

Everything I thought of looked creepy when I typed it out, so…

creepy
So, what are you doing next week?
/creepy

Looking towards scheduling all sorts of shots with (hopefully) thimerosal soon. Unfortunately, my doctor likes the single dose stuff. (sulks) I’m due for flu shot, DTaP, and maybe an MMR as it seem to be coming around. Also will investigate the shingles vaccine…

Yeah, my HMO uses the single dose flu vaccine, and I’m worried that the batteries in the nanobots that the Air Force injected into me are running down from lack of Hg. If I don’t get them charged up again soon, they won’t be able to keep beaming thoughts into my head. But befor I let that happen, I have an old fever thermometer full of delicious silvery stuff, and I can break that open. I believe in having a backup plan.

My HMO says another year to get the shingles shot, and I’m considering getting it on my own dime. Mom and dad both came down with shingles, and all I can say is “Do not want”.

@Johnny – sorry, my dance card is full at this time. 🙂

I actually work for the ebil insurance companies. You’d think they’d like to save money and have nice, complacent bots working for them. And still they insist on this single dose, healthy stuff. Even worse, they stress all sorts of stuff like smoking cessation, healthy eating, exercise….Geez.

I can’t help wondering how easy it would be to convince Toto that the half-human mercury-bloodstreamed shapeshifters from “Fringe” are real.

God is raising up an army of children whose testimony will WIPE YOU OUT.

It sure the fυck doesn’t seem to include you. Where are your videos? When are you going to drive to the CDC? When are you going to try to make a coherent remark?

@ MI Dawn:

Actually my own creatures are slightly older than I am- but remarkably well-preserved. The youngsters are for talk alone.

Sometimes I just can’t resist repartee.

-btw- I just got the flu vax- am I now mercurial?

usethebraingodgiveyou:

Have the sum total of all children in the U.S who have been harmed by vaccines been compensated?

Probably not, although can’t speak authoritatively for the US legal system. But I fail to see the relevance. Not every child permanently damaged by vaccine-preventable diseases has been compensated either, and there are more of them around than vaccine-damaged.

You seem to be trying to argue that because somebody might slip through the cracks of legal system, we shouldn’t vaccinate at all. To me, that argument is not only silly, it’s illogical. You don’t outlaw restaurants because somebody might choke on the food but not manage to sue the owners.

usethebrain: “Have the sum total of all children in the U.S who have been harmed by vaccines been compensated?”

I only linked to the NVICP statistics page twice or so. So you tell us. Also if your child is less than twenty six years old, you have only yourself to blame for not reading the federally required Vaccine Information Sheets.

I can tell from personal experience that children harmed with diseases get nothing. There is no National Disease Injury Compensation Program.

….” is raising up an army of children whose testimony will WIPE YOU OUT”

More likely, ANTIVAXXERS are collecting stories from distraught, unreliable parents who blame ASDs and other conditions on vaccines. Stagliano, Olmsted, Conroy, O’Toole,Jameson, Taylor et al are merely doing what they’ve been doing for years:
seeking a spotlight in which to showcase their martyr acts.

If there really is an army of children whose testimony will wipe vaccination campaigns out, then where is it? These claims go back a long time now, yet still the number of people coming forward to say their kid got autism from a vaccine is pretty small. Loud, but small.

Hmm. After I post, “Toto” (aka Orac) claims to be a real vaccine safety advocate, then Orac’s shill, Narad, and fake-“Toto” have a cute little pretentd spat. Think that will fool anyone into thinking that “Toto” is real? Ha! The time is coming when Toto-Orac and all his fake identities are going down! See you in the funny papers!!

P.S. Nice try, Toto-Orac, in pretending that you’re censoring yourself. You’ve got dozens of posts on this very thread using your Toto-hat – clear proof that you’re Orac-shill himself.

I’m still waiting for toto to make a coherent comment, and my coworkers are having a good time laughing at toto’s utter incompetence, as well as his utter lack of evidence supporting his/her/its views.

Please, toto, keep attempting to insult me with your juvenile insults. It really does show your utter lack of coherent thought, as well as showing that you have not one iota of evidence to support your views. I still need some laughs at your inane postings, however.

Well, I think the idea of somebody filming themselves post online eloquently describing how they are croundfunding a group of bounty hunters to “crowd source a $10,000 reward to bring this thief back to Atlanta to face charges” “Going over there and filming ones efforts to find him, show what he is up to now, and present the grand jury findings” is adorable.

Especially with the backpedaling when called out on claiming to try to fund an international kidnapping operation.

The federal indictment against Thorsen

“Today, Thorsen is facing 13 counts of wire fraud and 9 counts of money laundering. NaturalNews spoke with the Department of Justice and confirmed that extradition proceedings are under way to bring Thorsen to the United States from Denmark, although no particular timetable for that extradition has been announced.

Thorsen now faces up to 260 years in prison from the wire fraud charges, and up to an additional 90 years in prison for the money laundering charges, plus a total of $22.5 million in possible fines. In addition, the federal indictment also contains a so-called “forfeiture provision” which seeks the forfeiture of the personal property Dr. Thorsen allegedly purchased with money he stole from the CDC’s grant activities: A house in Atlanta, two cars and a Harley Davidson motorcycle.

The case is being prosecuted by Assistant United States Attorneys Stephen H. McClain and Michael J. Brown, both out of the Northern District of Georgia (Atlanta). This Atlanta office has a well-known reputation for going after crooks, regardless of the political implications. This is the same office, for example, that indicted Atlanta’s own mayor for corruption and tax charges in 2004 (http://www.justice.gov/tax/usaopress/2004/txdv0408-30-04.html).

The prosecuting attorney for that case, Sally Quillian Yates, is the same attorney contributing to this case. She said of Thorsen: “Grant money for disease research is a precious commodity. When grant funds are stolen, we lose not only the money, but also the opportunity to better understand and cure debilitating diseases. This defendant is alleged to have orchestrated a scheme to steal over $1 million in CDC grant money earmarked for autism research. We will now seek the defendant’s extradition for him to face federal charges in the United States.”

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/032216_Thorsen_fraud.html#ixzz3ClSA2VPL

Krebs: It’s based on human nature. Most of us common folk hold doctors in high esteem, hold nurses in high esteem, hold medicine in high esteem. Although Doctors may go into it for the money, you won’t last long if your patients don’t trust you. I have no proof that thousands were harmed, but blamed it on something other than vaccines, or maybe were reticent to be one of those crazy vaccine parents or even doctors, so just held it in their heart, but let the actual incident go. How is raising a fit going to change anything? Your child seems to be okay now…it’s all over. You pick up and go on.

I and my best friend both have son’s whose reactions were severe, one was hospitalized and 5 doctors seemed to agree it was the MMR. Both of our boys, my son is my only child, are learning disabled…here in America that means having dyslexia or mild autism or learning troubles, not low IQ as it does in England….

Elephant in the room:

WHY was Denmark monitoring an “autism” rate along with vaccine data ANYWAY? Did they suspect something?

WHY did Denmark remove Thimerosal from infant/child vaccines anyway? The Thimerosal makes the vaccines CHEAPER and gives them a longer shelf-life.

WHY DID THEY REMOVE THIMEROSAL IF THERE WAS NO BENEFIT, BUT WOULD INSTEAD CAUSE THEM TO LOSE MONEY?
No one has ever addressed that obvious question.

My son’s disability, in incidences of brain damage, has been located to a specific part of the brain and has a special name, Gertsmanns syndrome.

Chris…so you think every child who has been harmed by a vaccine has been represented? Did you actually raise your hand, or not?

One in one million children are harmed by vaccines…10,000 vaccines at a time…

Oy…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….that makes me tired…

UTBGGY: Most of us common folk hold doctors in high esteem, hold nurses in high esteem, hold medicine in high esteem.

Wouldn’t know it by the comments of the people you run with, ma’am. Most of them regard doctors and nurses as one level up from pond scum. Which makes me wonder why they don’t just learn to set bones and what not, rather than go and bug people they hate.

All: So apparently, the crowd of AOA thinks my name means that I have human test subjects, rather than being a memorial to some spoiled rotten pets. I bring this up because it amuses me. (Email address is the name of my first pet.)

“Chris…so you think every child who has been harmed by a vaccine has been represented? Did you actually raise your hand, or not?”

I answered the question. Those the ones who have made the effort to file a claim, and actually had some evidence, have been compensated. You only have yourself to blame for not reading the Vaccine Information Sheet and taking the effort to file a claim with the NVICP.

Those who have actually been harmed by the diseases have not, because there is no National Disease Injury Compensation Program. My son had seizures from a now vaccine preventable disease, and the neurologist would only say his resulting severe speech and behavior disabilities may or may not be the result of the seizures.
His very severe heart condition is definitely genetic.

If you have data that shows the vaccines cause more seizures than the diseases, then provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers.

How many of you are medical doctors? How many of you are pediatricians?

All about Poul:

Here’s his nice Atlanta getaway, bought with STOLEN CDC RESEARCH MONEY (tax dollars), according to the Grand Jury indictment:
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2657-Briarlake-Rd-NE-Atlanta-GA-30345/14552734_zpid/

I plan to distribute the nice Inspector General’s WANTED POSTERS (with photo) in the area. Just in case Poul tries to sneak back in town for a Southern vacay.

WANTED: FOR CRIMES AGAINST AMERICAN TAXPAYERS!
“OIG Fugitive: Poul Thorsen
Poul Thorsen
From approximately February 2004 until February 2010, Poul Thorsen executed a scheme to steal grant money awarded by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). CDC had awarded grant money to Denmark for research involving infant disabilities, autism, genetic disorders, and fetal alcohol syndrome. CDC awarded the grant to fund studies of the relationship between autism and the exposure to vaccines, the relationship between cerebral palsy and infection during pregnancy, and the relationship between developmental outcomes and fetal alcohol exposure.
Thorsen worked as a visiting scientist at CDC, Division of Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities, before the grant was awarded.
The initial grant was awarded to the Danish Medical Research Council. In approximately 2007, a second grant was awarded to the Danish Agency for Science, Technology, and Innovation. Both agencies are governmental agencies in Denmark. The research was done by the Aarhaus University and Odense University Hospital in Denmark.
Thorsen allegedly diverted over $1 million of the CDC grant money to his own personal bank account. Thorsen submitted fraudulent invoices on CDC letterhead to medical facilities assisting in the research for reimbursement of work allegedly covered by the grants. The invoices were addressed to Aarhaus University and Sahlgrenska University Hospital. The fact that the invoices were on CDC letterhead made it appear that CDC was requesting the money from Aarhaus University and Sahlgrenska University Hospital although the bank account listed on the invoices belonged to Thorsen.
In April 2011, Thorsen was indicted on 22 counts of Wire Fraud and Money Laundering.
According to bank account records, Thorsen purchased a home in Atlanta, a Harley Davidson motorcycle, an Audi automobile, and a Honda SUV with funds that he received from the CDC grants.
Thorsen is currently in Denmark and is awaiting extradition to the United States.”
THEY ALSO HAVE A NICE MUG SHOT ON THE SITE
https://oig.hhs.gov/fraud/fugitives/profiles.asp

@usethebrains: does certified nurse-midwife count? I certainly was one for several years.

use thebrains…

I reject your reality and substitute my own…

So you admit that your objections to the one in a million figure are based entirely on your own prejudices, not on facts or evidence?

As for your complaints about the 10,000 vaccines, what Paul Offitt actually wrote, as you can read in the paper I believe you linked to, was:

If we assume that [… four different assumptions about the immune system’s capacity are listed here] then each infant would have the theoretical capacity to respond to about 10 000 vaccines at any one time [..]

Firstly it depends on whether those four assumptions are correct. Secondly, he was clearly talking about the immune system’s ability to respond to large numbers of antigens without being overwhelmed, and my reading suggests he was probably right in his assumptions. It seems obvious to me that Offitt wasn’t suggesting that injecting a child with 10,000 vaccines along with adjuvants, preservatives and contaminants at once would be harmless. In fact it seems that only someone extremely dim or with an agenda could possibly misinterpret what he wrote to mean that.

I’m tired of people like you making nonsense up and railing against people who don’t unquestioningly accept your fictions. Personally I try to get to the truth using the best evidence available, not decide to believe something then selectively accept evidence depending on whether it supports my beliefs. As a great man once wrote, you are the easiest person to fool.

Not falling for Toto

Ummm…. Quick scientific lesson for you. The way science work is that, you take the entire literature in your domain of study, you iron out an hypothesis according to all the data you’ve acquired throught the review of the literature. Then, you iron out all the other hypothesis competing with your conclusion unless one hypothesis present a better explanation as compared to your original hypothesis (in which case you change your hypothesis) such as, when you think that Orac is a sockpuppet of Toto, do you have any evidence of that? I don’t think so :), he’s been here since 2006 at least, and toto appeared less than 2 weeks ago. Do you see any discrepancy between the traffic of this site as compared to 4 years ago (when Toto wasn’t invented)? if Yes, prove that to me and I’ll be convinced. Otherwise, you’ll meet my killfile 😛

Alain

Not falling for Toto,

Seeing as you’re not being censored here after all, despite your original assumptions, how about you show us how a real, honest-to-god true “safe vaccine”-advocate presents compelling evidence and upholds honorable conduct while debating said evidence?

@UTBGGY:

One in one million children are harmed by vaccines…

Can I have a source for that? The evidence points to negative outcomes occurring even less often than that.

From all-caps Toto

WHY was Denmark monitoring an “autism” rate along with vaccine data ANYWAY? Did they suspect something?

Let’s see…
Wakefield published his infamous MMR study in 1998. He was one among many people who was very vocal about the existence of a link between vaccination and autism.
He was not the first and he will not be the last. People have been complaining about vaccines since the very first ones in the 19th century. People have been complaining about Rock’n’Roll, video games and kids for a long time, too. Doesn’t make them right.
And for the navel-gazing ones among our US readers, these people were not just Americans. You have vaccine refusers all around the world. Doesn’t make them right, but when enough people express their feelings about some topic, wise politics pay some attention to it.

So many health agencies around the world did the responsible thing when a potential risk is brought to their attention: let’s investigate it.
Wakefiled study was not independently replicated and found seriously flawed (no control for PCR? Are you kidding me?)
But wait, it was mercury. Let’s investigate it. No, it’s too many too soon. Let’s investigate it.
And again, and again, and again.

WHY DID THEY REMOVE THIMEROSAL IF THERE WAS NO BENEFIT, BUT WOULD INSTEAD CAUSE THEM TO LOSE MONEY?

There was a benefit (or so the politics/health agencies thought): keeping the citizens’ trust by listening to their concerns and removing something which was freaking them out, regardless of the actual risk.
Too bad there is no pleasing some people.
No big deal for the manufacturers: selling vaccines as single-dose units instead of multi-dose vials means more money for them.
It’s more expensive for our health agencies, but make up your mind: are you really right now blaming them for addressing your concerns rather than ignoring them and sticking to the low-budget solution?
Damned if you do (“Ha ah, I was right; it’s a cover-up”), damned if you don’t (“They don’t listen to me, it’s a cover-up”)

No one has ever addressed that obvious question.

You are new in town, aren’t you?
In nearly every post about vaccines, people talk about it. That question has been raised and addressed in the comments of a recent post about this whole Hooker/Wakefield kerkuffle..

So, the Government & Health authorities take a conservative approach and order the removal of an ingredient from vaccines…then follow up with a wide variety of studies to see if they made the right decision and if there was a problem….

We then find out that there wasn’t a problem (in fact, no legitimate study has found any problems or connections at all) manufacturers have already moved on to different formulations & it wouldn’t be cost-effective to go back (and as has been pointed out – single dose vials are more profitable anyway)….but for those areas of the world without proper refrigeration, there are still multi-dose vaccines available to keep up an effective program in the Third World.

Seems like we have the best of both worlds today, but the anti-vaccine folks won’t be happy….seem incapable of being happy, with anything.

WHY DID THEY REMOVE THIMEROSAL IF THERE WAS NO BENEFIT, BUT WOULD INSTEAD CAUSE THEM TO LOSE MONEY? No one has ever addressed that obvious question.

They have, but you just haven’t paid attention. The decision was based on the safety data available at the time, and assumed that ethylmercury had a similar safety profile to methylmercury. For example, back at #217 I posted:
As the AAP has stated in this paper (PDF) published by the AAP last year (forgive the repetition, but it is apparently necessary):

Had the evidence that is available now been available in 1999, the policy reducing thimerosal use would likely have not been implemented. Furthermore, in 2008 the World Health Organization (WHO) endorsed the use of thimerosal in vaccines.

Julian…
I can’t help you. Your delusion is too strong. You see divinity where I see humanity.

@usethebrainsgodgiveyou: um, what? How is asking for proof of your claims “delusion”? And how does my request show that I see “divinity”?

I can’t help you. Your delusion is too strong.

Didn’t you just admit you reject evidence-based reality in favor of stuff you have invented based on nothing but anecdotes?

We’re demonstrably able to identify adverse events causally associated with routine vaccination that occur with extremely low incidence–the narcolepsy possibly associated with Pandemrix flu vaccine (1 in 16,000 doses), encephalopathy associated with MMR vaccine (1 case in every 1 million doses), etc..

If vaccination did cause autsm spectrum disorders with sufficient frequency to drive the observed increase in new diagnoses of ASD’s over the past couple of decades the same surveillance that can detect events occurring in 1 out of 10,ooo-plus doses would have no trouble detecting this, yet none of the very large scale epidemiologic studies conducted by multiple independent investigators and publis health agencies in multiple nations has found any hint of such an association.

My ‘god given brain’ tells me there’s a reason for that: no such causal association exists to be found.

WHY DID THEY REMOVE THIMEROSAL IF THERE WAS NO BENEFIT, BUT WOULD INSTEAD CAUSE THEM TO LOSE MONEY? No one has ever addressed that obvious question.

Actually Toto, I did in my post at #277.

Try to keep up.

Vaccines have saved millions of lives…I am thankful for the difference they have made in the world. But we really don’t know why some children are susceptible to harm, except maybe egg allergies.

The reason why I see it as your religion, is you have no doubt of their purity, of any evidence against them as an affront to the tenets of your religion. They are perfect in every way….one in million harmed, and at that, it’s probably some weakness in the child.

Really, it is only mere religious belief that humans are not bio-identical clones and for pretty much everything ever tested there is someone who will be greater than 2 (or sometimes way more) standard deviations away from the average and sometimes that means they either may be harmed in a way that does not effect the vast majority of people or may be unharmable to something that would cause harm to the vast majority of people.

We know why egg allergies would harm. We don’t know why some other kids are harmed. doesn’t mean that kid is at fault, just that every population of everything ever tested has genetic variation and some variants (or epigentic variants or developmental quirks which are all even less predictable) have significant differences from the majority.

But it has to be unfounded beliefs and it has to be ebil intent to blame the victim if it doesn’t conform to your opinions, I guess.

Oh, and that goes for every perfectly natural virus, bacteria, food, herb, or whatever you put in your body. Not just the artificial ones.

We don’t know why some other kids are harmed ….Jesus…she gets it!!

Blame the victim is what we do when we say it is less than one in a million because of Dravet’s disease.

The reason why I see it as your religion, is you have no doubt of their purity, of any evidence against them as an affront to the tenets of your religion. They are perfect in every way

Given that Orac and the regular posters here bend over backwards to refrain from making blanket statements like “vaccines never do any harm” and “vaccines are 100% effective,” where the Sam Hill are you coming from?

UTBGGY:Vaccines have saved millions of lives…I am thankful for the difference they have made in the world.

Liar.

UTBGGY: The reason why I see it as your religion, is you have no doubt of their purity, of any evidence against them as an affront to the tenets of your religion. They are perfect in every way….one in million harmed, and at that, it’s probably some weakness in the child.

No, we don’t think they are perfect. The pertussis vaccine could use a *lot* of improvement. The HPV vaccine is tremendously expensive, and every so often the flu vaccine doesn’t match up with the stuff going around. However, most of the people who badmouth vaccines are liars, grifters or sometimes just plain confused. The parents who are most active in anti-vax movements are odious perfectionists who can’t deal with having an imperfect child. Take a look at your crowd sometime: they’re notorious for being bullies, especially to parents who have lost children to VPDs. A number of them are straight-up liars who wouldn’t know a fact if it bit them. And of course there’s grifters like Wakey, who see a population ripe for fooling.

Someone explain to me how identifying a pre-existing medical condition as the possible cause of a vaccine reaction is blaming the victim? Did I miss something?

But we really don’t know why some children are susceptible to harm, except maybe egg allergies.

What ‘harm’, exactly, do you believe some children are susceptible that occurs as an adverse consequence of routine vaccination? Be specific.

Also if a child can be harmed by a vaccine, why wouldn’t they be harmed even more by the actual disease?

I don’t know, Chris….you tell me.

Let’s do another epidemiological study on that….

It’s taken 10-15 years for people to look at possible innate sensitivity. There will never be a vaccinated/unvaccinated study because too few people don’t vaccinate at all….99.7% of people have used at least one vaccine.

So, it either happens so frequently that there is a massive cover-up (which is impossible, by any rational measure)….or it happens so infrequently that large-scale retrospective studies can’t discern any pattern or cause from the background noise.

Mostly likely, even if we are talking about a susceptible subgroup (which has never been identified), it is so small that we’ll never be able to determine a cause or identify common characteristics….which brings us back to serious reactions occurring at a rate of 1 in 1 mil or so (and most so rare that it cannot be determined if vaccines are the cause).

You getting it now, UTBTGGY?

“Blame the victim is what we do when we say it is less than one in a million because of Dravet’s disease.”

Um did I say the person went out and got themselves Dravet’s disease specifically to get themselves harmed.

No one can help what rare genetic variant they are born with.

But do I blame Valium and only Valium because a friend of mine has the reverse reaction to it and call for all Valium to be banned or changed only because of a 1 in a bazillion funny reaction (well actually about 1 in 10,000ish) and ignore all the problems that anxiety can cause people?

He had it for a medical procedure so he would tolerate the procedure better. They had to wait until he stopped bouncing off the walls like a cartoon Tasmanian Devil on meth before they could do anything at all with him.

FWIW don’t know why doesn’t mean that only the vaccine by itself is causing the problem in almost everyone else who doesn’t have the weird issue that might interact in a bad way every millionth shot.

Pointing out a genetic cause for a condition is never “blaming the victim.” That would be like blaming the parents when their child is diagnosed with Downs, for instance.

It isn’t blame, it is relating the cause of a particular condition….

usethebrains: “I don’t know, Chris….you tell me”

They do much worse with the disease. Which is why it is recommended that those with mitochondrial disorders get vaccinated. Plus for those with immune disorders or undergoing cancer therapy that they be protected by community immunity.

There is absolutely no evidence that the vaccines cause more harm than the diseases. It is dishonest to keep focused on any risk from the vaccine, but ignoring the very real risks of the diseases.

There will never be a vaccinated/unvaccinated study because too few people don’t vaccinate at all….

There will never be a prospective vaccinated versus un-vacinated study, but not for the reason you suggest: it won’t be done because it would be unethical to deliberately leave the un-vaccinated cohort susceptible to harm as a consequence of infection by measles, pertussis, varicella, polio, HepB, etc.

Fortunately it isn’t necesary to conduct such studies to evaluate vaccine safety, since retrospective vaccinated versus unvaccinated studies can and have been done, often on very large scales.

usethebrains…

The reason why I see it as your religion, is you have no doubt of their purity, of any evidence against them as an affront to the tenets of your religion. They are perfect in every way….one in million harmed, and at that, it’s probably some weakness in the child.

What are you talking about? I posted a whole list of known side-effects of vaccines with their relative frequency a couple of days ago, and now you have forgotten, and claim that I and other commenters deny these side-effects even exist? We were discussing the Vaccine Court and the thousands of cases it has compensated just yesterday. You either have a very short memory, or you are simply employing a straw man argument because that’s all you have left.

It’s generally religion that demands you believe things without any evidence, and it is you who has openly stated that you reject any evidence (reality) that conflicts with your closed-minded beliefs. You are projecting, it seems to me.

We don’t know why some other kids are harmed ….Jesus…she gets it!!

We don’t know that they are harmed by vaccines at all, and in most cases the best evidence we have suggests they are not. That’s what you don’t appear to get.

Blame the victim is what we do when we say it is less than one in a million because of Dravet’s disease.

Don’t be silly, figuring out the true cause of a child’s symptoms is not blaming the victim. Now that we understand that children with Dravet Syndrome would suffer encephalopathy with or without vaccines, but that they would react far worse to a VPD than to a vaccine, we know that vaccinating them is the best course of action. If we simply assumed that their symptoms were caused by vaccination, as you seem to suggest, we would be leaving them vulnerable to VPDs, and probable permanent disability of death.

It’s interesting to see that you have descended into nasty sniping, just because you cannot support your position rationally, and claim it is those who are arguing from a rational position who are irrational. If what you claim is true, surely you have some good evidence for it (personal experience and anecdotes are not good evidence). If you don’t, I suggest you have a long hard think about how you know what you think you know. It might be painful, but if you are truly interested in facing up to truth and reality I recommend it. On the other hand if you prefer living in fantasy-land, carry on as you are.

The gunman slipped through immigration

Naturally, *gunman* was the videographer. He slipped (and slid) right through because he was known, possibly in an official capacity??

Blame the victim is what we do when we say it is less than one in a million because of Dravet’s disease.

For Pete’s sake.
And you use a religious moniker. Ever heard of the deadly sin of Pride?

There is a genetic disease in my family, causing minor defects during the fetus’ development (if you can call a missing heart valve “minor”). My sister and a few of my cousins’ children got various forms of it.
It was liberating to have the diagnostic done, a decade back. This way, we could at last stop wondering if it was toxoplasmosis or whatnot.
It also made easier for us to accept and acknowledge that my sister is handicapped. Especially for my dad.
Recognizing that we have a few loose genes in our family is exactly the opposite of “blaming the victim”. It’s sharing the responsibility and acknowledging the vagaries of fate. Bad stuff happens to everybody, and this is the bad stuff which did happen to our family.

I just cannot fathom why people are so twisted about the idea that their progeny is inheriting their defaults as well as their qualities. Embarrassed, I would understand, but denying it?

You should look at what you say more carefully, all. It could be misconstrued.

One in a million harmed by vaccines, which can be given 10 000 at a time.

Peanuts are innocuous…we most all eat them, some daily! But to a person who has a peanut allergy…Parents whose son died of a peanut allergy in Georgia were on the news today. They didn’t say they should rid the world of peanuts so no other child dies, but they are trying to make sure epi-pens that would save other children’s lives are in every school.

Vaccines are like peanuts. If you do an epidemiological study on peanuts, it will “prove” that they are not responsible for the child’s death. Because epidemiological studies are not meant to pick out single cases, but trends. Deaths/harm are seen as statistics, and an individual may not make it above the threshold of significance to the epidemiologist, and ability to prove causality is very difficult. But to that parent, epidemiological significance will not change what happened.

There is a group of 20-30 bloggers who belittle parents of children who have reactions to vaccines, because they believe the “herd” is more important than the individual. They have made vaccines their god, and will take no discussion of possible causality, and blame the parents of causing “death to millions” simply by saying their child was harmed. Luckily, few, if any of them are doctors, and it’s hard to take their religion seriously.

I only began to trust medicine and vaccines again because my doctor told me the truth. Dr. B. Cabbiness is not an alternative doctor, who believes in special, questionable treatments will rid my kid of “vaccine damage”. He is a pediatrician who specializes in special kids. He told me it was the pertussis component of Ben’s DTwP that causes the HHE (Hypotonic- Hyporesponsive episode) when Ben was 2 months old. He told me the truth, that we don’t really know all there is to know about vaccines. You will never hear that from the skeptics. It’s against their religion

If you google christian and genetics, you will come across Francis Collins name. I heard a story that he told, how he was convinced to let go of atheism he had held on to. Get out a piece of 8 x 11 paper….take a pen and make a mark in the middle of it. Now, draw a circle going out to the far edges of the paper. You see the dot? That is what we know about science, about the universe. The circle is a very small representation of what we don’t know. How arrogant to think you know everything that needs to be known…when all your really know is that small dot.

I think it is the influx of skepticism that has paralyzed science. Science isn’t about knowing because that has an end, it’s about forgetting everything you know.

usethebraingodgiveyou,

Science isn’t about knowing because that has an end, it’s about forgetting everything you know.

I think you’re framing things incorrectly. There is no benefit in reinventing the wheel over and over again.

The way I see it, science is most definitely not about forgetting everything one knows – it is – if you want to diminish into abstract idioms – about being willing to admit when you are/were wrong. That means, requires actually, that we remember as much as possible.

And while the story about the dot makes a poignant picture, it’s nothing but a poignant picture. I’ll share with you another one…

Draw a large + in the middle of the paper. Then, draw new lines across each arm, making each arm a + as well. Repeat until bored, each time drawing smaller and smaller lines. Each line adds more stuff we know, and you can keep doing it infinitely, infinitely adding more stuff… But, anywhere you stopped, I believe that is as much as we know about the science and the universe today. We have a solid foundation of knowledge we can increase, but it will not suddenly turn everything on it’s head – no matter what discoveries are made and what paradigm shifts are in store for us, they have to explain what we already know, what we have observed, what we can already predict. None of that is going anywhere.

usethebrainsgodgiveyou,

You should look at what you say more carefully, all. It could be misconstrued.
One in a million harmed by vaccines, which can be given 10 000 at a time.

I’m still waiting for your evidence that the one in a million figure is wrong. I already explained that Paul Offitt made it crystal clear that he was talking about antigens, and I think he was right that our immune systems could cope with the antigens present in 10,000 vaccines at a time. They normally cope perfectly well with the billions of bacteria and viruses they encounter as soon as we pop out of the amniotic sac and enter the birth canal. If you insist on willfully and dishonestly misconstruing his words, that’s on you.

Peanuts are innocuous…we most all eat them, some daily! But to a person who has a peanut allergy…Parents whose son died of a peanut allergy in Georgia were on the news today. They didn’t say they should rid the world of peanuts so no other child dies, but they are trying to make sure epi-pens that would save other children’s lives are in every school.

This is all very interesting, but has nothing whatsoever to do with what you are arguing. It is worth noting that deaths from food allergies are far more common than those from vaccination.

Vaccines are like peanuts.

Yes, people can have allergic reactions to vaccines, just as they can to peanuts. However, vaccines are given in a doctor’s office where epipens are always available, as well as trained staff who can recognize anaphylaxis. As a result, peanuts are far more dangerous than vaccines (and, of course, have far, far fewer benefits).

If you do an epidemiological study on peanuts, it will “prove” that they are not responsible for the child’s death. Because epidemiological studies are not meant to pick out single cases, but trends.

That’s nonsense. You can do epidemiological studies on peanut allergy, and many people have; its prevalence is similar to that of autism. This study for example, which found that Jewish children in the UK have a prevalence of peanut allergy is 10-fold higher than that of Jewish children in Israel.

If you did an epidemiological study looking at anaphylaxis and peanut consumption, it would pick it up, assuming a large enough sample of the population was used, just as autism caused by vaccination would have been picked up in the many studies that have been done, if it occurred more than very rarely indeed.

Deaths/harm are seen as statistics, and an individual may not make it above the threshold of significance to the epidemiologist, and ability to prove causality is very difficult. But to that parent, epidemiological significance will not change what happened.

So you are saying that epidemiological studies cannot pick up very rare vaccine reactions, therefore vaccine reactions are far more common than epidemiological studies indicate? Do you do understand that doesn’t make any sense at all?

There is a group of 20-30 bloggers who belittle parents of children who have reactions to vaccines, because they believe the “herd” is more important than the individual.

I have every sympathy for those whose children are disabled for whatever reason, but it doesn’t give people a free pass to make evidence-free claims about the incidence of vaccine injury. The herd consists of individuals, and yes, I think that a few vaccine-damaged children is far better than hundreds or thousands of very sick, hospitalized, permanently disabled or dead children, which is what we will see if the likes of AoA have their way.

For some reason you seem to think that children who may (or may not) be damaged by vaccines are more important than the many children who will most definitely be damaged by VPDs if vaccine uptake falls below herd immunity thresholds.

They have made vaccines their god, and will take no discussion of possible causality, and blame the parents of causing “death to millions” simply by saying their child was harmed.

Do you have some sort of reading comprehension problem? I have already pointed out that I posted a list of vaccine injuries a day or two ago, with the risks of each. Yet you persist in claiming that we deny vaccine injuries exist. Why are you being so dishonest about this?

No one has accused anyone of causing death to millions just because they think their child was harmed by vaccination. What is potentially damaging to public health is when people claim that vaccine injuries are more common than dozens of well-designed studies tell us they are.

Luckily, few, if any of them are doctors, and it’s hard to take their religion seriously.

Luckily public health authorities all over the world concur with the opinions expressed here, and understand the risks and benefits.

I only began to trust medicine and vaccines again because my doctor told me the truth. Dr. B. Cabbiness is not an alternative doctor, who believes in special, questionable treatments will rid my kid of “vaccine damage”. He is a pediatrician who specializes in special kids. He told me it was the pertussis component of Ben’s DTwP that causes the HHE (Hypotonic- Hyporesponsive episode) when Ben was 2 months old.

No one is denying that vaccines can cause reactions like HHE, very rarely, but as this paper concluded:

Although much remains to be learnt about HHE it would appear that there are no long-term sequelae and that children who have had an HHE can be revaccinated.

From what you have written here, it seems unlikely that your son’s problems are due to vaccines. HHE has no long-term sequelae, and Gerstmann Syndrome is probably due to a lesion in the parietal region of the brain; I can find no evidence of a link with vaccines.

It sometimes sucks having a disabled child, believe me I know, but it is a waste of energy trying to find someone or something to blame, when it is most likely simply bad luck. Responding by joining a campaign that, should it succeed, will result in hundreds or thousands more disabled children seems perverse to me.

He told me the truth, that we don’t really know all there is to know about vaccines. You will never hear that from the skeptics. It’s against their religion.

Of course we don’t really know all there is to know about vaccines. We don’t know everything there is to know about anything! That doesn’t mean that the many studies that show serious vaccine reactions are extremely rare are wrong.

“”Vaccines are like peanuts”

Yes, vaccines do make a tasty snack. Though they were even more delicious when they contained thimerosal.

I heard a story that he told, how he was convinced to let go of atheism he had held on to.

We don’t know very much, therefore god.
OK.

It’s like arguing “We don’t know very much, therefore Santa Claus”.

He told me the truth, that we don’t really know all there is to know about vaccines. You will never hear that from the skeptics. It’s against their religion.

Of course we don’t really know all there is to know about vaccines. We don’t know everything there is to know about anything! That doesn’t mean that the many studies that show serious vaccine reactions are extremely rare are wrong.

How arrogant to think you know everything that needs to be known…when all your really know is that small dot.

I think you misunderstand atheism; it doesn’t claim to know everything. I recommend Richard Dawkins’ ‘The God Delusion’, in which he explains his position as an atheist:”‘I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there”. How is that arrogant? I think it is far more arrogant to simply make up stuff when we don’t know, rather than admitting we don’t know.

I think it is the influx of skepticism that has paralyzed science.

Science is paralyzed? How can anyone in the 21st century, surrounded by the most amazing technology, actually type those words?

Science isn’t about knowing because that has an end, it’s about forgetting everything you know.

When are you going to forget what you think you know about vaccine injuries, take off your blinkers and take a look at the evidence. Here’s some for you to start with, this metaanalysis that included five cohort studies involving 1,256,407 children, and five case-control studies involving 9,920 children. Highlights:

There was no relationship between vaccination and autism (OR: 0.99; 95% CI: 0.92 to 1.06).
There was no relationship between vaccination and ASD (autism spectrum disorder) (OR: 0.91; 95% CI: 0.68 to 1.20).
There was no relationship between [autism/ASD] and MMR (OR: 0.84; 95% CI: 0.70 to 1.01).
There was no relationship between [autism/ASD] and thimerosal (OR: 1.00; 95% CI: 0.77 to 1.31).
There was no relationship between [autism/ASD] and mercury (Hg) (OR: 1.00; 95% CI: 0.93 to 1.07).
Findings of this meta-analysis suggest that vaccinations are not associated with the development of autism or autism spectrum disorder.

Do you reject this metaanalysis? If so, why?

Although much remains to be learnt about HHE it would appear that there are no long-term sequelae and that children who have had an HHE can be revaccinated.

Krebs….there are no long term studies, but one, regarding HHE’s. There are a total of 21 in all of pubmed if you use the search parameters for hypotonic hyporepsonsive episode. and Vaccine…I think you have to use the whole words for HHE. LIke the recent kerfluffle regarding the MMR and vaccines and African Americans, the 10-15 point IQ differential between verbal and performance is attributed to some of the kids being Hispanic. Any possible unconvenient number has a quasi-scientific guess as to why the numbers mimic the LD differential type. At any rate, it concerned 9 kids. According to a recent paper w/some governmental the DTaP decreased the numbers of HHE’s from one in 1700 to one in 7000 (0.14 per thousand) although in the same paper it noted that the DTaP decreased HHE responses from 80 to 90%…so either that or the 1 in 1700 is wrong.

Anyhow…..for an incidence of 1 in 700 (90%off of 7000), which is only slightly less than the incident of severe autism which everyone is losing their minds over……We have one long term study.

One.

THANK YOU, JESUS….I’m so glad you mentioned Dawkins.

Are we speaking of the same neo-nazi who feels it is a parents duty to society to abort their Down Syndrome child?

@ Lawrence:

:”pointing out a genetic cause for a condition is never ‘blaming the victim'”

True, but many people are extremely uncomfortable with the idea of genetic influences:
– AoA screams, “No way!’ -esp Stagliano who has 3 daughters with autism and blames vaccines even though the youngest is not vaccinated ( it was due to Kim’s own childhood vaccines).Or it was anti-biotics says MacNeil.
– I’ve personally heard parents who had children with SMI disavow genetic influence ( when I did outreach work) and blame teachers’ scolding, rejection by peers or medications.
– a woo-meister believes that there are little or no genetic causes for cancer, CVD etc. It’s all based on nutrition.

Perhaps there’s fear of stigma or an attempt to attribute negative outcomes to external sources to preserve self-esteem or an illusion of control.

It reminds me a bit of the tales of primitive peoples attributing non-accidental death to magic or witchcraft. No one dies of natural causes.

Woo teaches that illness is caused by ingesting evil substances or being vaccinated with them- a child is better off left intact uncontaminated by taboo substances like mercury, gluten and caseine.

OBVIOUSLY these beliefs allow the person to believe that they have more control over events than reality would permit: only avoid the taboo and remain perfect or be cured.

Funny how reading about primitives is apropo here.

usethebrains…

Anyhow…..for an incidence of 1 in 700 (90%off of 7000), which is only slightly less than the incident of severe autism which everyone is losing their minds over……We have one long term study. One.

So we simply invent a cause and pretend it has long-term sequelae when there is no evidence for this? I’m not clear what you are arguing here.

THANK YOU, JESUS….I’m so glad you mentioned Dawkins.

Just out of curiosity, how many of his books have you read?

Are we speaking of the same neo-nazi who feels it is a parents duty to society to abort their Down Syndrome child?

How does this make him a “neo-nazi”? My point was that even the arch-atheist Dawkins doesn’t hold the position your straw-man atheist does.

I’ll probably regret wading into this swamp, but what the heck… Some years ago I personally set up a prenatal screening program for Down’s Syndrome, wrote the risk calculation software and integrated it with the lab computer system, visited other hospitals to see how they went about it, liaised with the antenatal department midwives etc,,. It was in use for ten years and screened about 50,000 pregnancies, detecting around 40 Down’s pregnancies, though I don’t know how many were terminated (not my department).

I am proud to have helped pregnant women to make an informed decision about whether to terminate their pregnancy. I suppose that makes me a Nazi too.
I personally disagree with Dawkins about the morality of knowingly bringing a fetus with Down’s to term, I think it is a decision the parents should make, but I support his right to his opinion, and I think he has a point.

If you aren’t religious and don’t believe that humans have a soul, I don’t see why you would think an abortion before 20 weeks (which was our cut-off) is immoral. I can also understand why parents want a healthy child – when my son was born I would have given my right arm for him to have been able-bodied, instead of confined to a wheelchair his whole life.

If you are religious and do believe humans have a soul, why is it wrong to do your best to provide your child’s soul with a body that is healthy as possible? I know people with Down’s Syndrome can live productive lives, but I bet they would prefer to have been born with the regular number of chromosomes. Why is it OK for God to abort fetuses with abnormalities but not humans? God (or nature if you prefer) is, after all, the greatest abortionist, terminating about 70% of all pregnancies.

UTBGGY: only began to trust medicine and vaccines again because my doctor told me the truth. Dr. B. Cabbiness is not an alternative doctor, who believes in special, questionable treatments will rid my kid of “vaccine damage”. He is a pediatrician who specializes in special kids.

Yeah, he totally sounds like a guy to trust. He’s not going to ride off one fine day into the sunset with your savings account.

UTBGGY: Science isn’t about knowing because that has an end, it’s about forgetting everything you know.

No, it is about knowing. It’s basically like building a house and adding onto it perpetually. We know most of the foundations, like the theory of evolution (right, another thing you don’t believe in) or the theory of the big bang. These might be scrapped someday, but so far they’ve stood the test of time. And if anyone says they have the *truth* about anything and it’s their exclusive property, chances are they’re usually lying.

UTBGGY: There is a group of 20-30 bloggers who belittle parents of children who have reactions to vaccines, because they believe the “herd” is more important than the individual.

It’s not that we belittle them so much as we bemoan them. It’s fun to have a little poke at some of the more prominent ones- Ms. Dachel, the cult leader for instance- but it’s more important to have the facts out there.

And I think it sailed waay over that tiny head of yours that the ‘herd’ is made up of individuals. Go walk in an old graveyard sometime- I guarantee you’ll see lots of gravestones that mark where tiny little coffins were put in. Those kids were individuals too once, before their lives were cut short by pertussis, diptheria, measles and mumps- all those diseases you love.

Kaymarie: I’m a little bit scared to try valium for that reason.

I think of Ballastexistenz, who introduced me to the idea of “useless eaters”. Aktion T-4 would have been proud of Mr. Dawkins.

So, do I wait until my child has the body I want him to have before I allow him to live? I think God is Down Syndrome…

I think of Ballastexistenz, who introduced me to the idea of “useless eaters”. Aktion T-4 would have been proud of Mr. Dawkins.

Now you’re showing your true colors. The right of a woman to terminate her pregnancy is exactly the same as euthanasia and genocide, in your warped world-view, isn’t it? That’s the second Godwin in this conversation – by rights I should just give up trying to get through to your closed-minded, prejudiced, hate-filled brain.

You haven’t read anything by Dawkins, have you? You’re just going by what prejudiced people have written about him. That’s bigotry pure and simple.

I suggest you start with ‘The Blind Watchmaker’ and you really should read ‘The God Delusion’. Dawkins makes a very good case for a secular humanist morality that bears no resemblance to the fantasy version of atheism you seem to have acquired.

So, do I wait until my child has the body I want him to have before I allow him to live?

Are you one of those people who believes a woman should die of an ectopic pregnancy because it’s God’s will? Or that a woman who has been raped should carry her pregnancy to term?

A fetus is not a child, and no one is telling you what to do. I am arguing for personal choice and Dawkins is expressing a view about the morality of knowingly bringing a disabled child into the world. I know these are controversial areas, but a knee-jerk accusation of Nazism and of believing in “useless eaters” really isn’t helpful.

I think God is Down Syndrome…

God is trisomy-21? That makes about as much sense as the rest of your comments here.

Kreb: This study for example, which found that Jewish children in the UK have a prevalence of peanut allergy is 10-fold higher than that of Jewish children in Israel.

Off topic, but I find that kind of wild. How did they define prevalence? Due to number of allergic reactions treated? It’s possible that peanut butter/peanut products aren’t as readily available. (Funny the things we miss; when I went to Ecuador, I missed peanut butter and root beer the most.)

UTBGGY: Way to pick on an autistic blogger. It’s always been a source of morbid amusement to me how Christians categorize disabled children: you have the ‘angel babies’ (Down’s, cerebral palsy, immunodeficient) and then the ‘devil children (autistic children,** fetal alcohol, “attachment disorder,”* OCD and behavioral emotional difficulties) and neither allow any space for an actual person to grow.

Since a lot of disabled people end up being killed by their caretakers, I support prenatal screening. Some parents can’t hack caring for a disabled child, and even the best parents need time to prepare and adjust.

*In my opinion, attachment disorder was invented as an excuse to justify abuse.
** I do not subscribe to this philosophy, and I apologize to any autistic people on the thread if it seems I do.

Kreb: The right of a woman to terminate her pregnancy is exactly the same as euthanasia and genocide, in your warped world-view, isn’t it?

Well, given that UBGGY is a Christian, that’s kind of standard. There aren’t many Christians who think that women matter as much as fetuses. A few, but not a majority. God wants everyone, but especially women to be unhappy.

PGP, if you want to prove that atheists aren’t as bad as people say they are, don’t go around proving them right!

PGP,

Off topic, but I find that kind of wild. How did they define prevalence? Due to number of allergic reactions treated? It’s possible that peanut butter/peanut products aren’t as readily available. (Funny the things we miss; when I went to Ecuador, I missed peanut butter and root beer the most.)

It is odd isn’t it? They used a parental questionnaire to measure prevalence of peanut allergy and consumption and concluded:

Israeli infants consume peanut in high quantities in the first year of life, whereas UK infants avoid peanuts. These findings raise the question of whether early introduction of peanut during infancy, rather than avoidance, will prevent the development of PA.

This may be yet another case of things being counterintuitive, like those parents who avoid vaccines because of the risks and end up with a child dead (or permanently damaged) from whooping cough.

The American love of peanut butter baffles me. It’s OK, I suppose, but it’s nowhere near as nice as Marmite 😉

I think of Ballastexistenz, who introduced me to the idea of “useless eaters”.

Has anybody introduced you to the idea of context? Or reason? Or the idea of the history of ideas?

The idea that it’s socially and/or politically necessary to eliminate the “unfit” — whether by slaughter, as in the Third Reich, or by compulsory sterilization, as in this country — isn’t just a naturally occurring and therefore evergreen feature of elites. It arose and flourished in the early 20th century, in the context of then-current thinking about — inter alia — imperialism, industrial modernity and evolution.

Elites have figured out that there are less time-, energy- and cost-intensive ways of staying on top of the heap since then.

And no, Kissinger never said anything remotely like that.

Please join the rest of the class in the present.

Aktion T-4 would have been proud of Mr. Dawkins.

He said it would be immoral, not that the brave new supremacist world of the future required it.

Also, the ideas of proportion, just comparison, and hierarchical power: Have you met them?

Because I have. So I can just reject, curse and scorn Richard Dawkins for being too blinded by self-regard to realize that he knows nothing about the moral implications of any woman’s pregnancy. Unless he impregnated her. Arguably.

What a fool.

So, do I wait until my child has the body I want him to have before I allow him to live? I think God is Down Syndrome…

Your prerogative, afaic. I’m pro-choice on both scores.

Well, given that UBGGY is a Christian, that’s kind of standard. There aren’t many Christians who think that women matter as much as fetuses. A few, but not a majority. God wants everyone, but especially women to be unhappy.

What a profoundly offensive and bigoted statement.

Incidentally, between 73 and 83 percent of Americans identify themselves as Christian. And about 70 percent support legal abortion. (Meaning: “They don’t think Roe v. Wade, should be overturned. The details are a little more conflicted.)

Both of those things have been more or less the case at the same time for close to half a century by now.

Israeli infants consume peanut in high quantities in the first year of life, whereas UK infants avoid peanuts. These findings raise the question of whether early introduction of peanut during infancy, rather than avoidance, will prevent the development of PA.

The same observation was made re: pet allergies. It was subsequently found that early exposure to pet dander was actually protective against allergies contrary to the popular recommendation to limit pet exposure in infancy.

Alas, I have found that I disagree with you on something…Marmite. I’ll take peanut butter any day.

I’ve avoided discussing any of the silly statements by “usethebrains”, because we have already had this discussion about her child’s episode of HHE on Seth Mnookin’s blog, a while back. Read Mnookin’s blog carefully…it’s the relating of the story of the whoppers Barbara Loe Fisher told about her son’s supposed reaction to whole cell pertussis vaccine…and how she “happened to remember her son’s reaction” after viewing a television program about vaccines. She testified in front of Congress and no one ever questioned her about that story which launched her career.

Scroll down to see the many comments posted by “usethebrains/Rose” and her shtick of sliming science bloggers including Orac. Now compare those comments to the nasty comments she made about Orac on this thread and on another thread.

http://blogs.plos.org/thepanicvirus/2012/09/13/the-whole-cell-pertussis-vaccine-media-malpractice-and-the-long-term-effects-of-avoiding-difficult-conversations/

Now, we have “usethebrains” who comes here and admits she has no education in science, no science background, no relevant employment in any health care field, yet takes the opportunity to slam our host Orac.

If you don’t like Orac’s tone and you don’t understand the science behind vaccines, I suggest that you are either incredibly dense or you are a troll.

Kreb: Huh. I would have thought that the lack of peanut allergies was due to less peanut consumption, not more. But it does make sense- more exposure means the immune system will recognize it and not mount a response.

Ann: Incidentally, between 73 and 83 percent of Americans identify themselves as Christian. And about 70 percent support legal abortion. (Meaning: “They don’t think Roe v. Wade, should be overturned. The details are a little more conflicted.)
Both of those things have been more or less the case at the same time for close to half a century by now.

And yet, I can maybe name *one* prominent Christian who considers themself sort of pro-choice. (Jim Wallis, although his support is ‘I don’t like it, but it should be legal.)
There aren’t any pro-choice activists who talk about their faith in public. However, every anti-choice activist won’t shut up about their faith and how it guides them.

GF: if you want to prove that atheists aren’t as bad as people say they are, don’t go around proving them right!

Well, I can’t think of much God approves of, so it seems that fundamentalists must lead a fairly joyless existence. A happy woman is God’s worst nightmare.
In one list of sins I listed the following: music, reading or writing while female, dancing, going outside while female, looking up, education, and of course, sex. On the approved list: picketing clinics and funerals, sermons, violence, wars. Note how short the second list is.

lilady: “Scroll down to see the many comments posted by “usethebrains/Rose” and her shtick of sliming science bloggers including Orac. Now compare those comments to the nasty comments she made about Orac on this thread and on another thread. ”

Le sigh. I actually thought I got her to actually care about those of us who kids were injured by diseases and had genetic disorders.

Obviously something else changed her mind. It seems she is back to thinking that kids like mine who have genetic health conditions deserve injuries from the diseases.

Because injuries from vaccines are so much more important than injuries from diseases. Even though the latter occur more frequently.

“That’s Maiolo, the copywriter.”
Call him what you want. He didn’t write it. Otherwise, you would have posted a link.

I did, bonehead.

There aren’t many Christians who think that women matter as much as fetuses.

Every so often I start to feel sorry for you but somehow you invariably ensure that doesn’t last very long.

Shay: All right then, show me a feminist- still living and active in politics- who’s pro-choice AND publicly identifies herself as a Christian. (Hilary Clinton doesn’t count, as she’d say anything to win an election.) I doubt you could find one. I’m not saying what I did to troll- most public Christians are on record as being part of the keep’em barefoot and pregnant brigade.

And yet, I can maybe name *one* prominent Christian who considers themself sort of pro-choice. (Jim Wallis, although his support is ‘I don’t like it, but it should be legal.)
There aren’t any pro-choice activists who talk about their faith in public. However, every anti-choice activist won’t shut up about their faith and how it guides them.

In the United States, the official, institutional position of:

The Episcopal Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, the Presbyterian Church, the Reformed Church, the Reformed Christian Church, the Disciples of Christ, and the Community of Christ

is pro-choice.

So possibly you should consider whether using whomever you can think of off the top of your head as your representative sample might be inclining you to confirmation bias.

Well, given that UBGGY is a Christian, that’s kind of standard. There aren’t many Christians who think that women matter as much as fetuses. A few, but not a majority. God wants everyone, but especially women to be unhappy.

What a profoundly offensive and bigoted statement.

Generally, PGP doesn’t make any other kind.

She appears to think that making big declarations based on pathetically slim evidence shows her to be extra-intelligent, or something like that.

She is blind to how she really appears to everyone: as pathetically self-deluded as any woo-believer who ever waltzed in here announcing “There was this doctor who told himself ‘I’m gonna exercise ‘healing intent’ towards the experimental mice’ and both his experimental mice and the control mice lived and that PROVES THAT ENERGY HEALING IS THE WAVE OF THE FUTURE!!1!!”

Ballestexistenz is the name of an autistic woman. I’d never heard of the term before. She prepared me for the trip to the Holocaust Museum. Matt Carey just did a post on, I think it was a statue or something, the German people had built in honor of the victims of the Aktion T-4. The final solution began with a legalization of mercy killing by Hitler signing a document that gave certain doctors the ability to decide who was worthy of life. Can you see how I would make the connection? Dawkins tweeted something on the order of it should, well, here it is. http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/aug/21/richard-dawkins-apologises-downs-syndrome-tweet ” It only takes a spark….I don’t remember if a hairlip was considered “defective” enough….How we hate all that isn’t perfect and within our control when we refuse to see anothers humanity.

“If your morality is based, as mine is, on a desire to increase the sum of happiness and reduce suffering, the decision to deliberately give birth to a Down’s baby, when you have the choice to abort it early in the pregnancy, might actually be immoral from the point of view of the child’s own welfare.” Dawkins said. I guess only moral people get to decide who is happy, and who is not. What a nice guy. If you are going to deify someone with intellect try someone who isn’t quite so sloppy. I’ve read, and like Carl Sagan.

There was a study done regarding Down Syndrome “sufferers” feelings regarding their quality of life. Ninety percent of saw their lives as fruitful, and they considered themselves happy.

Ballestexistenz, who believes in a womans right to choose, is also afraid that “autism prevention” is a misnomer for selective abortion of handicapped children, especially autistic children. She was initial in starting the website http://archive.autistics.org/ in reaction to her feeling that Cure Autism Now was looking for a biological marker so autistic babies could be aborted before they inconvenienced their parents. She is a lovely writer. She, and Larry Arnold, were the first people I met (online) who were autistic. They both, I think, claim to be Christian. I know Larry does. I saw the people they were, and decided no matter what Ben’s outcome, if he came out half as good as them, I’d be delighted!

I think God is Autistic, too, if that accounts for anything. He said, whenever you do anything for the least of these, you do it for _me_. Autistics, Down Syndrome….all. When Robert Frost speaks of the “trial by existence”…he tells of heaven where “the tales of earth’s unhonored things lie nobler there than neath the sun.” Not angels…but teachers, as all children are teachers to we adults who think ourselves so wise.

I thought the Methodists were pro choice too.

Ann: In the United States, the official, institutional position of:

The Episcopal Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, the Presbyterian Church, the Reformed Church, the Reformed Christian Church, the Disciples of Christ, and the Community of Christ

is pro-choice.

That’s the first I’ve heard of it. I should note that most of my exposure to churched people is through the media- and if you’ve got a hundred silent people who are pro-choice vs. twenty anti-choice people with loudspeakers, how are you going to know which side the silent people are on?

It’s like with the anti-vax people- most of them are loud, obnoxious and generally awful, so if I ran across a polite one, I’d be really surprised.

I shouldn’t judge Dawkins. I’ve just always thought he was an elitist, and kind of mean-spirited. Why don’t you read more Sagan?

Ballastexitenz is the first autistic adult I had ever heard of when I was allowed to join the Autism Hub in …2006, I think. She saw “Cure Autism Now” as a euphemism for “Kill autistics before they have a chance to breathe”, and her name is just a hyper-awareness that autistics days may be numbered. You might look at http://archive.autistics.org/ She and Larry Arnold were the first autistic adults I ever read or communicated with. They gave me hope that if Ben was anything like them, and did as much to help others, to hold up their peeps….I believe they both are christian, not that it matters. I thought the Methodist church was also pro choice. There are atheists who are also against abortion…not that that matters, either.

I may seem rattled, but you hardly give me a chance to be breathe. I feel a little bit like a junior high science project, but you haven’t used the hair spray yet…

I shouldn’t judge Dawkins. I’ve just always thought he was an elitist, and kind of mean-spirited.

He is so you have to compartmentalise him. Blind Watchmaker and God Delusion are hard but good reads.

I just have to tell you one more story, my basis for God being Downs…a story Ballastexitenz told of a deaf person being asked if they were excited to go to heaven, where they could hear like everyone else.

“In heaven, ” she said “God signs.”

I know another Christian woman who has the most profoundly disabled children I have ever seen. She cusses like a sailor, I mean BBBAAAAAAAAAAADDDD…but it is so funny! She seem very strong, and very joyful. It is typically the parents who look for pity that frighten me. I hope to God you don’t think I’m looking for pity. That is the only mal-label you could give me that would cut.

If you do an epidemiological study on peanuts, it will “prove” that they are not responsible for the child’s death.

No, usethebrains: it won’t. If it could, you wouldn’t need to enclose the word prove in quote marks.

There are a total of 21 in all of pubmed if you use the search parameters for hypotonic hyporepsonsive episode. and Vaccine

None of which identify HHE as anything other than a known but rare adverse events associated with vaccination, and none of which report persistent neuological or cognitive impairment occuring as a result of vaccine associated HHE, and none of which conclude that the relative risk of HHE associated with vaccination (pertussis or otherwise) arguues against routine vaccination.

UTBGGY: I hope to God you don’t think I’m looking for pity.

Well, you’re either looking for pity or trying to pick a fight. Why else do anti-vaxxers go on the internet?

@ usethebrains…How about you engage the neurons in your brain that G-d gave you, before you post your silly comments?

“Ballestexistenz is the name of an autistic woman. I’d never heard of the term before. She prepared me for the trip to the Holocaust Museum. Matt Carey just did a post on, I think it was a statue or something, the German people had built in honor of the victims of the Aktion T-4…..”

Um, no. It wasn’t a statue or something, it is a blue glass memorial wall; if you had opened the link to the NY Times article which Matt Carey provided, you would have known that:

http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2014/09/04/every-human-life-is-worth-living/

“…..It only takes a spark….I don’t remember if a hairlip was considered “defective” enough….How we hate all that isn’t perfect and within our control when we refuse to see anothers humanity…..”

If you are going to use that derogatory term for individuals who were born with a cleft lip, you might as well get the spelling correct (harelip), which describes the natural cleft that rabbits and hares have, which exposes their front teeth and their gums.

On another thread you stated that you made a claim for your son’s HHE episode, before the United States Court of Federal Claims (Vaccine Court). Was your child awarded damages for this purported “vaccine injury”?

Lilady, you’ll probably say I’m lying, because I recall Matt saying once that could be checked on. I’ve looked for that link. I was under the impression that I was, from the multitude of correspondence that I got. But I don’t recall ever having to give medical records over, maybe I did.

Interestingly, the law group refused me at first because I wouldn’t chelate Ben. Then, later it was no longer a pre-requisite.

Are you aware of the link to the name of those represented in the Autism Omnibus proceedings? I’d like to know….doesn’t make any difference, but still.

Interestingly, the law group refused me at first because I wouldn’t chelate Ben.

Very interesting as since when would a law firm engage in making a non necessary medical procedure a pre-requisite for taking a case on? Not only that but attorneys for an NVICP case wouldn’t require such a thing.

I don’t really want to contribute to derailing this thread any more than I already have, so I’ll restrict my response to brains to the following..

The final solution began with a legalization of mercy killing by Hitler signing a document that gave certain doctors the ability to decide who was worthy of life. Can you see how I would make the connection?

Not really. The argument that abortion for pregnancies that would result in a disabled baby leads straight to Auschwitz doesn’t hold water.

Termination of pregnancies if, “the child was likely to be severely physically or mentally handicapped” has been legal in the UK for the past 47 years, and we haven’t yet started euthanizing people, or herding them into gas chambers. How long does it take to slide down that slippery slope?

Separating the act of terminating a pregnancy from ensuring a healthy able-bodied child, if someone developed a natural supplement that a woman could take during pregnancy that would ensure the child didn’t have Down’s, would that be acceptable? Isn’t that just as discriminatory? What about taking folic acid to prevent neural tube defects?

This is a difficult and emotional area where people have very different opinions. Please avoid accusing people of being Nazis. It really doesn’t help a civilized discussion of anything.

UTBGGY – my goodness, you are all over the map aren’t you? Feel free to take a break if you need time to collect your thoughts.
Folks have bent over backwards to help you understand the science behind vaccines and the scientific process in general (along with some history, philosophy and reading comprehension) and you just don’t bother trying. Instead you keep trying the Ethel Merman tactic: making up in volume (or more accurately frequency) what you lack in stature (or, in this case, critical thinking skills).

Please, I’m sure your child needs something from you, go pay attention to him.

I didn’t answer your question. No….I wasn’t awarded any damages. At the time it would have been used to send him to special schooling for kids with learning disabilites.

lilady: Isn’t it ‘cleft palate’ or are those two different things?

UTBGGY: I’m sorry, but there is no way God has Downs or almost any other disability.
People with DS are known for being happy and loving- God is known for being dour and hateful. I’d buy a bipolar deity.

PGP Clefts can be just the lip (seen from the outside) or just the palate (only see in the roof of the mouth) or both

PGP…my reasoning was the opposite. Thank you.

There’s the one about, what you do for the least of these, you do for _me_. I can’t think of many people considered more “least of these” than a Down’s Syndrome kid is to some. In another way, God is love ….Can you imagine God having a smile like that? “My ways are not your ways…” Maybe we really don’t know what perfection is. Maybe God is Autistic, and woefully lacking a theory of mind, because that is egocentric and they aren’t.. Autistics do tend to mirror how they are treated. And if they aren’t aggressive, they usually take it inside and damage themselves rather than hurt another, dying early because of crippling depression.They are tender. Or maybe severe CP, where one is daily dependent on others for their very lives, and would die within days without love. Sappy, I guess.

I only have a couple more things.
Forget Everything You Know….https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq-FOOQ1TpE Jacob was in special ed up to fifth grade. I don’t know that he talks about that…but his ma just knew how to treat him…respectfully. Here is an example of Science gone awry…Applied Behavioral Analysis, which is how most autistic kids are “treated” these days in public schools. Which is why more and more are homeschooled. @#$% social skills and being indistinguishable from their peers when you are the low dog on the totem pole.. Mhmmmm….Sciency.

This is the only long term study on HHE….in 1989. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=hypotonic+hyporesponsive+episode+performance+IQ

Initially, kids with autism are very low on the verbal, and then it can turn around if they are more aspergish-ish.

“This life, which had been the tomb of his virtue and of his honour, is but a walking shadow; a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”
William Shakespeare

I was looking for a “self-defecating” (which Ben said, the first time, by accident) quote about a happy little idiot,but found that instead.

But to end: another aspergian, or so they say:

Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself.
Mark Twain

.

One more thing. I took my moniker just to piss off atheists. I figured out Simon Baron Cohen was an atheist, and he called my son evil, lacking empathy, and he had the science to prove it.. Sciency…

And then old lady Frith is calling our kids “fairies” and “aliens” and I though F.U and the horse you rode in on, lady…and she’s quoting Dawkins (shouldn’t that be dick-ens?)and says the “intense world theory” is rubbish just because she didn’t come up with it, And ABA….and ritalin….and all that crap. And kids who are using technology to communicate must be being facilitated by their parents. Sciency….

My son is brilliant. It won’t be easy but he will be okay. What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.

And then we have the Dr.’s Eide, who are christian, who have lifted us up so high and are bringing in a contingent of people who have survived being square pegs, and have written a book about the gifts of dyslexia (that and autism are often intertwined…or confused.)

I don’t care if you think I’m stupid, I don’t care if I am. That’s just the way it is.

And if that effing HHE hurt my son ala Gershwins and I find out, somebody is going to pay.

Kaymarie: Thank you. My grandpa had both (or maybe still has), so that’s why I got confused. Doesn’t help that they’re used almost interchangeably among the lay population. Don’t worry, Grandpa’s still alive, he just had corrective surgery when young.

UTBGGY: There’s the one about, what you do for the least of these, you do for _me_. I can’t think of many people considered more “least of these” than a Down’s Syndrome kid is to some. In another way, God is love ….Can you imagine God having a smile like that? “My ways are not your ways…” Maybe we really don’t know what perfection is. Maybe God is Autistic, and woefully lacking a theory of mind, because that is egocentric and they aren’t.. Autistics do tend to mirror how they are treated. And if they aren’t aggressive, they usually take it inside and damage themselves rather than hurt another, dying early because of crippling depression.They are tender. Or maybe severe CP, where one is daily dependent on others for their very lives, and would die within days without love. Sappy, I guess.

Are you on something or just living in a bizarro universe? ‘Cause you’re basically suggesting that kids with DS are also born homophobic, judgey, and with a hatred of fun

I don’t think you’ve ever met anyone with autism or Asperger’s. Some have bad social skills, at least in the first ten years of life, but a lot manage to turn things around. I doubt Mark Twain had Aspergers- he was well-known for being very social. And boy, you really have a hard-on for hating scientists, don’t you. Guess that goes with the territory.

“This life, which had been the tomb of his virtue and of his honour, is but a walking shadow…”
William Shakespeare

That’s not the quote from MacBeth that I remember.

But to end: another aspergian, or so they say:

They say? Who is “they”?

The final solution began with a legalization of mercy killing by Hitler signing a document that gave certain doctors the ability to decide who was worthy of life. Can you see how I would make the connection?

Yes. But it’s spurious.

I’ll try again.

First of all, “the final solution” was, specifically, “to the Jewish question.”

Second, that decree didn’t start anything. It was part of a program that was central to Nazi idealogy, which was explicitly eugenicist.

Third, there’s a very consequential difference between a totalitiarian dictator enacting policy and a C-list public intellectual responding to somebody’s tweet.

Fourth, making it social policy to kill (or otherwise eliminate) the unfit is not as voguish nowadays as it was in the late 19th and early 20th century, when it was not uncommonly quite a popular concept among reputable, educated people everywhere. Including in this country, which had a robust eugenics movement before Nazi Germany did.

In fact,.it’s been a crime all over the world since 1948. “Genocide,” to be precise.

And finally:

The ruling classes, to which Dawkins does not belong, therefore no longer have a reason or motive to think of some, any or all members of this or that group as “useless eaters.”

There’s nothing in it for them. No gains to be gotten.

_________________

^^All of which renders the idle, ill-considered sentiment that flows from the fingers of Richard Dawkins into the public sphere via the miracle of the internet so very, very different from the Nazi’s racial hygiene policies that they effectively have nothing in common.

There’s no threat. So stop indulging your fears.You’re just committing acts of terrorism against yourself.
________________

Hope that helps. Let me know if it was unclear.

“One more thing. I took my moniker just to piss off atheists.”

And to annoy those of us who are irritated by illogical tense use, even though we create them with typos.

brains,

I took my moniker just to piss off atheists.

It doesn’t p!ss me off, it makes me laugh every time I see it. I originally assumed it was ironic, based on what you have posted here, but it seems you are serious.

I figured out Simon Baron Cohen was an atheist,

He’s a practicing Jew, not an atheist.

and he called my son evil, lacking empathy, and he had the science to prove it.. Sciency…

Where has Simon Baron-Cohen ever described autistic children as “evil”? This review of his book ‘The Problem of Evil’ makes it clear that he doesn’t; evil requires malice, and these children have none.

Those with autism and Asperger Syndrome, he makes clear, are innocently indifferent—literally, clueless when it comes to reading the feelings of others. In extreme cases they treat others like inanimate objects; but they have no malice or intention of causing harm to others, let alone deriving joy from doing so.

You do understand that these are real people you are so nastily accusing of being Nazis and of calling autistic people “evil”?

And then old lady Frith is calling our kids “fairies” and “aliens”

Again, where has Uta Frith ever described autistic children as “fairies” or “aliens”? She may have suggested that historically autistic children may have been assumed to be “fairies” or “aliens”, but that is very different.

You don’t seem to understand nuance, or or conditional clauses come to that. As with what Dawkins wrote about Down’s pregnancies, you didn’t see the “if” and the “might” and the “early in the pregnancy”, and think about the issues, you went straight to “Dawkins wants to kill disabled babies! He’s a Nazi! He’s an elitist!”

and I though F.U and the horse you rode in on, lady…and she’s quoting Dawkins (shouldn’t that be dick-ens?)and says the “intense world theory” is rubbish just because she didn’t come up with it,

If I understand you, it seems you have grossly misunderstood what some scientists have written about autism and on that basis you have decided that atheists are evil, even though at least one of them isn’t an atheist at all.

And ABA….

Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t ABA currently appear to be the only effective therapy for autism? I suppose you would prefer chelation and attachment therapy.

and ritalin….and all that crap.

More knee-jerk evidence-free assertions. Have you talked to parents of children with ADHD who have found ritalin to have transformed their lives?

And kids who are using technology to communicate must be being facilitated by their parents. Sciency….

In most cases facilitated communication has undoubtedly been parents or other carers fooling themselves. For example, this review concluded:

Previous reviews of Facilitated Communication (FC) studies have clearly established that proponents’ claims are largely unsubstantiated and that using FC as an intervention for communicatively impaired or noncommunicative individuals is not recommended. […] Findings support the conclusions of previous reviews. Furthermore, this review critiques and discounts the claims of two studies purporting to offer empirical evidence of FC efficacy using control procedures.

Are you suggesting that this isn’t true?

My son is brilliant. It won’t be easy but he will be okay. What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.

I’m glad to hear that, really, but don’t be too quick to dismiss science-based treatments that might help him.

And then we have the Dr.’s Eide, who are christian, who have lifted us up so high and are bringing in a contingent of people who have survived being square pegs, and have written a book about the gifts of dyslexia (that and autism are often intertwined…or confused.)

You seem to have acquired some very bizarre beliefs about atheist scientists devaluing autistic children. I don’t think anyone here would disagree that autistic (and dyslexic) individuals often have rare gifts, and I’m quite sure we all agree they deserve the same love and respect as any other person.

I don’t care if you think I’m stupid, I don’t care if I am. That’s just the way it is.

You clearly aren’t stupid. I do think you have misunderstood a great deal of what you have read, and in other cases you have just uncritically swallowed what you have read on antivaccine or alternative health sites. There’s a lot of misinformation out there, and you need to check your facts before making some of the serious accusations you have here.

And if that effing HHE hurt my son ala Gershwins and I find out, somebody is going to pay.

Who is going to pay? Are you going to spend your whole life full of anger and bitterness, looking for someone to blame for your son’s condition? That’s going to make you very unhappy, I promise you. Why not just accept him the way he is, and move on?

“If your morality is based, as mine is, on a desire to increase the sum of happiness and reduce suffering, the decision to deliberately give birth to a Down’s baby, when you have the choice to abort it early in the pregnancy, might actually be immoral from the point of view of the child’s own welfare.” Dawkins said. I guess only moral people get to decide who is happy, and who is not.

See the first eight words of his quote?

Then why is that your guess?

It’s a stupid thing to say. Thoughtless, in every sense of the word. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

But happily, from the perspective of people who don’t have to sit next to him at dinner parties or anything, that’s all it is.

I figured out Simon Baron Cohen was an atheist, and he called my son evil, lacking empathy, and he had the science to prove it..

(a) Don’t personalize.

(b) He’s also a man, a Jew, and a Cambridge don. Are you going to start trying to piss them off, too?

(c) That’s not even remotely what he says.

And ABA….and ritalin….and all that crap. And kids who are using technology to communicate must be being facilitated by their parents. Sciency.

ABA isn’t always punitive. Ritalin isn’t always crap. And facilitated communication can be fraudulent.

Ann: Ritalin isn’t always crap.

It depends on the person. Like with anti-depressants, there are people it doesn’t work on.

It depends on the person. Like with anti-depressants, there are people it doesn’t work on.

Hence the isn’t always qualifier. I don’t know why I bother though.

One more thing. I took my moniker just to piss off atheists.

And here I thought it was to try to piss off people who do that noun–verb agreement thing.

Did anyone actually understand what “usethebrains” stated about her child’s reaction to a vaccine, the claim she did or did not file in the Vaccine Court, and, her religious beliefs?

Could someone interpret those statements for me, so that I might figure out if I am pissed off with her?

I figured out Simon Baron Cohen was an atheist, and he called my son evil, lacking empathy, and he had the science to prove it
Dr Baron-Cohen has said no such thing.

And then old lady Frith is calling our kids “fairies” and “aliens” and I though F.U and the horse you rode in on, lady

That is not what Uta wrote. Your deliberate twisting of other people’s words goes beyond “bad faith” into the territory of “bare-faced lying”.

There are a total of 21 in all of pubmed if you use the search parameters for hypotonic hyporepsonsive episode. and Vaccine…

There is a total of 45 if one omits the “vaccine.”

I think you have to use the whole words for HHE.

Or something.

You’ve got to be joking me….

“First of all, “the final solution” was, specifically, “to the Jewish question.””

It began with the death of Baby Bauer in a ‘mercy killing’. What it became was the final solution. But how it began was the mercy killing of a handicapped child.

If the elitists don’t exist, what are autistics so afraid of? How many of you are autistic?

I can’t believe the things you say….”You’ve never met an autistic in your life”? So now, you are authorities on autism, too? Is there anything you don’t know?

Attacking singular people is fun, isn’t it? I feel like the kid on the playground ….the autistic kid. Thanks for the lesson in empathy.
Even to making fun of my spelling and English. Thanks for the empathy exercise for the intellectually disabled. Corrections of everything. I’m glad I kept you busy for a while so you left someone else alone.

This isn’t science.

Science isn’t about attacking people.

I don’t know what this is…

This is about getting the last word and making fools of people…Gray, I never said I was Christian. I don’t even know what that is by the definitions brought forward here…I don’t recognize it.

And I am hate filled?

the worst one was about me demonizing autistics over downs….that should get some special award.

If my son came in here, you would destroy him for his spelling. That’s ….so fucking elitist.

And tell autistic people everywhere who think he is major a$$hole that SBC didn’t call them evil.

the worst one was about me demonizing autistics over downs….that should get some special award.

If my son came in here, you would destroy him for his spelling. That’s ….so frigging elitist. (My comment was awaiting moderation because I used the cuss word. God, that’s funny…

And I asked for it, didn’t I? I deserved it. Just like those autistic kids.

I feel stupid for having so many links in a row…but IF I answered all your belittlement’s towards me, I’ve got about 30-left to go. I won’t back down.

this isn’t science. I used to love science.

alright, let the poking begin again….

brains,

Attacking singular people is fun, isn’t it?

You tell me, you’re the one unjustly accusing “singular people” of being Nazis and of describing autistic people as “evil”, “fairies” and “aliens” when that clearly isn’t true. Maybe you have spent so long in the company of people who accept as given that Dawkins and other atheists are the Devil etc that you have forgotten that he, Baron-Cohen and Frith are people too. That doesn’t excuse you from not bothering to check what Baron-Cohen really said, or what religion he follows, or from reading what Dawkins actually said (you even quoted it) and addressing what you disagree with instead of just shouting “Nazi!”.

This isn’t science. Science isn’t about attacking people. I don’t know what this is… And I am hate filled?

I have lost count of the number of demonstrable lies you have posted here, many of them offensive. Can’t you see that might annoy people? Especially when someone takes the time and trouble to explain why what you have posted isn’t true, yet you just continue repeating the same nonsense, “One in one million children are harmed by vaccines…10,000 vaccines at a time…Oy…that makes me tired…” , or claiming that allowing abortion for fetal defects leads to genocide, when there are many countries where this has been legal for half a century or more, justifying your divorce from the truth with some inanity like, “I reject your reality and substitute my own….”

If I accused you of murdering someone, and you produced solid evidence that you didn’t, and I continued describing you as a murderer, justifying it with, “I reject your reality and substitute my own….”. Wouldn’t that annoy you or upset you?

You behavior looks to me like a typical troll’s, deliberately posting falsehoods to get a reaction, then acting all butt-hurt when you get one. Stating that you chose your pseudonym with the specific intent of irritating people, and then complaining when people take the p!ss out of it? Poor you.

You never listened to me….you only criticized me.And you get all butt hurt anytime I treat you the way you treat me. And it’s been intimated I am a murderer because I say….why didn’t anyone look into this?

Uta Frith DID call kids that…Do I have to look it up to show you evidence? Autistics feel highly slighted from SBC….do you want me to lead you to the tweets and the blogs started? How about the kids who started typing independently after using FC for years….would you read anything I sent? Did you read anything I linked to?

I don’t lie. I may be confused but I don’t lie.

You goad people, and then when they get upset, you get all butt hurt and whiny. You are no better than me.

Now start bringing up everything I said like a whiny baby and use it as proof that I am the mean one.

Let’s begin with butt hurt….what exactly do you mean by that? Is that a special terminology in science that I’m not aware of?

usethebrains…,

And tell autistic people everywhere who think he is major a$$hole that SBC didn’t call them evil.

Where specifically did Simon Baron-Cohen describe autistic people as “evil”? If you are going to make libelous, defamatory statements like that, you had better be able to back them up.

By the way, I got the name of SBC’s book wrong above, it should be ‘The Science of Evil’. Nowhere in it does SBS describe autistic people as evil, in fact his affection for people with autism is clear – his own sister had an ID.

Uta Frith DID call kids that…Do I have to look it up to show you evidence?

Yes, that would be nice.

ID and autism are not synonymous. If his affection is clear, why do they dislike him so much? Shouldn’t someone explain to them that even though it is a book about evil and he compares them to evil people and now so does society in general—-and goes all out how they lack empathy…..I guess you always hurt the ones you love. Shouldn’t someone tell them? He tried, and when they argued he said, “SCIENCE!”

And tell autistic people everywhere who think he is major a$$hole that SBC didn’t call them evil.

Ohhhhh… pooooooor, poooooooor baby…. I feel so sorry for you…

… life is so haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaard when you don’t get to judge people based on statements that you invented and then pretended they said. So unfair! I mean, what do they expect you to do, limit yourself to things that people actually said for purposes of condemning them?! How illogical!

If his affection is clear, why do they dislike him so much?

This makes no sense at all. People do dislike others for completely irrational reasons. Just look at the anti-vaxers attitude to Paul Offit.

It’s not me….talk to the autistics who wrote the blogs. I’m sure they are a bunch of whiners, too.

How many of you are autistic? Is it so hard to feel for them, that they might be degraded by being included in a book about evil?

life is so haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaard

Is that how scientists spell hard, because that’s a new one to me.

http://autismandempathyblog.wordpress.com/author/neuralgourmet/

http://autismblogsdirectory.blogspot.com/2011/09/simon-baron-cohen-replies-to-rachel.html

Many people point out that Simon Baron Cohen seems to lack empathy towards autistics. He has included in a study that they seem to lack that “quintessentially human qualities” How many of you lack quintessentially human qualities that make you human?

A theory of mind remains one of the quintessential abilities that makes us human (Whiten, 1993). By theory of mind we mean being able to infer the full range of mental states (beliefs, desires, intentions, imagination, emotions, etc.) that cause action. In brief, having a theory of mind is to be able to reflect on the contents of one’s own and other’s minds. Difficulty in understanding other minds is a core cognitive feature of autism spectrum conditions. The theory of mind difficulties seem to be universal among such individuals.” (Baron-Cohen 2001, 3) (http://autismandempathyblog.wordpress.com/a-critique-of-the-empathy-quotient-eq-test-introduction-and-part-1/)

usethebraingodgiveyou,

Take a deep breath, shut down your computer and take a walk.

Screaming through your keyboard and flinging accusations won’t help, and if you do it people sometimes reciprocate. The way it seems to me, you started – or if you’re really thin skinned, at least escalated from the get go – the name calling and insults.

How many of you are autistic?

Quite a lot of people here are not neurotypical or have a relative who is not.
But it has already been said.

How many of you are autistic? Is it so hard to feel for them, that they might be degraded by being included in a book about evil?

There are a fair number of autistics here and more with special needs children. I’m afraid you don’t have the lock on that.

Gaist, I’m not screaming…I’m sticking up for myself. As long as you keep belittling me, I’ll be here.

You’ve taken most everything I’ve said and twisted it. Is that science, too?

brains,

You never listened to me….you only criticized me.

If I didn’t listen I wouldn’t have noticed that you keep making statements that are not true, and refuse to either address the evidence that they are not true or withdraw your lies. You just repeat them over and over again. For example, claiming that commenters here “have made vaccines their god, and will take no discussion of possible causality” is a blatant lie, since we have discussed different injuries caused by vaccines and their risks.

And you get all butt hurt anytime I treat you the way you treat me.

You are the one making wildly inaccurate assertions, and when people point out they are untrue, or ask for evidence you claim you are being bullied. I’m not butt-hurt, I’m annoyed that you keep spreading misinformation even when you know it isn’t true.

And it’s been intimated I am a murderer because I say….why didn’t anyone look into this?

No one has accused you of being a murderer. I have pointed out that if you keep spreading lies about vaccine safety and people believe you, you will bear some collective responsibility if they don’t vaccinate their children and as a result children are injured and/or die.
Uta Frith DID call kids that…Do I have to look it up to show you evidence?
You can’t, because she has never stated any such thing. She did say that autistic children are, “often so beautiful and yet so different” and that they had a “fairy-tale” aura – as if under a spell”. That isn’t calling them fairies or aliens, is it?

Autistics feel highly slighted from SBC….

All autistics? Sorry, I didn’t realize you were a spokesperson for people with autism. How do you feel about someone who describes an person with an ASD as “deluded” as you did at #569?

do you want me to lead you to the tweets and the blogs started?

No, just show me where SBC described autistic individuals as “evil” and where Frith called autistic children “fairies” and “aliens”.

How about the kids who started typing independently after using FC for years….

Show me some evidence.

would you read anything I sent? Did you read anything I linked to?
On this thread you have linked to an article about Dawkins’ somewhat foolish statement about terminating Down’s pregnancies, to an archive of writings by autistic people, and to a PubMed search for SSE, all of which I have looked at. FC has been debunked as desperate people fooling themselves. Maybe in rare cases it can help, but in general it seems to make things worse.

I don’t lie. I may be confused but I don’t lie.

If so, you won’t have any problem providing evidence that vaccines permanently injure more than one in a million people, that Offitt actually stated that children could be injected with 10,000 vaccines, preservatives, adjuvants and all, that Dawkins is a neo-Nazi, that SBC stated that autistic individuals are “evil”, and that Uta Frith described autistic individuals as “fairies” and “aliens”. That’s just a small selection of the falsehoods you have posted here.

You goad people, and then when they get upset, you get all butt hurt and whiny. You are no better than me. Now start bringing up everything I said like a whiny baby and use it as proof that I am the mean one.

Who is goading you? Is asking for you to provide evidence to support your wild accusations goading? Is asking you to stop calling people Nazis whining?

Let’s begin with butt hurt….what exactly do you mean by that? Is that a special terminology in science that I’m not aware of?

It’s a useful term to describe someone showing an inappropriately strong negative emotional response to a perceived personal insult, just as you have done here, after deliberately (apparently) provoking that insult. It’s a tired old strategy I have seen dozens of times before.

Presumably you can now go back to AoA or wherever you normally hang out and complain about what meanies the RI commenters are. Or you can continue this here until Orac has had enough and bans you, as he did Greg when he employed the same tactics.

Jesus, Krebs…
Obvious block-quote fail is, hopefully, obvious.

You can’t even see yourselves. Maybe I am clueless. I’m not from AoA…

Jesus, Krebs…
Obvious block-quote fail is, hopefully, obvious.

You can’t even see yourselves. Maybe I am clueless.

The blockquote fail (a missing closure) is after:
“would you read anything I sent? Did you read anything I linked to?”

and before “On this thread you have linked to an article about Dawkins’ somewhat foolish statement about terminating Down’s pregnancies, to an archive of writings by autistic people, and to a PubMed search for SSE, all of which I have looked at. FC has been debunked as desperate people fooling themselves. Maybe in rare cases it can help, but in general it seems to make things worse.”

After that, every increased indentation is a quote from you, and every not so indented paragraph is by Krebiozen.

Hope that helps.

Tito’s mother taught him, beginning with an FC type format. Eventually, he wrote the words himself. Richard Attfield started off for years with FC, and now types independently.

No, that was my comment. The science-part you skimmed over waaay way upthread…

I don’t see why you quoted Krebiozen correcting himself as a reason to call him as well as other commenters on this forum blind.

I can’t think straight. Why does it always have to be a belittling comeback? Is that the scientific method?

Show me proof that long term studies have been done on HHE…

Like this one you mean?

In a prior prospective study, we evaluated the nature and rates of adverse reactions occurring within 48 hours following 15,752 diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis (DTP) immunizations. Nine children had convulsions, and nine had hypotonic-hyporesponsive episodes. After an interval of 6 to 7 years, we were successful in contacting the families of 16 of these children to determine whether any had evidence of neurologic impairment too subtle to have been detected at the time of initial evaluation.

You even mentioned this same study earlier, but now you deny it exists? Bizarre.

Show me another one. I’m still working on whether that says what you think it says.

And that was 9 kids out of thousands…..

I think you are reading way too much antagonism into my and other peoples’ comments here, and in doing so, instigating others and escalating the situation. Hence my recommendation earlier that you should take a deep breath and a break.

To which you accused me of belittling you.

And what’s with the “is this science?” skit? Seems to me you think you’re being bullied here and try somehow to insinuate it’s all science is, when you know that is not the case at all.

It’s not bullying to insist on evidence to back one’s claims, and calling one out for spouting incorrect information.

I repeat my recommendation, take a break. Come back and reply to reasonable comments in a reasonable manner.

Tito’s mother taught him, beginning with an FC type format. Eventually, he wrote the words himself. Richard Attfield started off for years with FC, and now types independently.

That’s not entirely accurate and I wouldn’t even call it facilitated communication in the “classic” sense or how most of know it as. Tito was taught the alphabet and word formation with manipulatives and learned to write on his own. Attfield was already typing on his own and merely used his parents’ to help him move his hands over the keyboard. And this has to do with what exactly?

I can’t think straight. Why does it always have to be a belittling comeback? Is that the scientific method?

Stick to the science, support any controversial statements with reliable evidence, avoid calling people Nazis and making other wildly inaccurate derogatory comments about people, and you won’t get belittling comebacks. It’s simple really.

Typically, the verbal/performance gap is not that wide. And although the discrepancy may be indicative of a bilingual child, it also can be indicative of autism.

Tito’s mother continues to teach many other kids in a way that is considered facilitated communication.

Show me proof that long term studies have been done on HHE…

Like this one you mean? […]

Show me another one.

Sigh. Show me some evidence that HHE has long-term sequelae. Follow-up studies in the Netherlands and Sweden mentioned here don’t appear to have been published, which suggests to me they found nothing of interest. Or it’s a huge cover-up by Big Pharma.

Was the study done? It sounds like it was too difficult to do…That was belittling, Krebs

Was the study done? It sounds like it was too difficult to do…That was belittling, Krebs

Please explain how that was in any way belittling. It wasn’t intended to be. Maybe I have seen too many studies dismissed as having been faked by Big Pharma just because someone doesn’t like the findings.

Here’s what the study says:

In The Netherlands, a case–control study of infants who had HHE reported in 1995 is ongoing. The HHE events were detected through national surveillance linked to the health care delivery system. Growth, health, and neurodevelopment are being assessed. Data presented at the workshop concerning children with HHE reported in 1994 indicate that all 101 children followed during the second year of life (mean age, 1.5 years) were in good health and developing normally. An interesting finding of this follow-up study was the low rate of recurrent collapse (subsequent HHE occurrences) after repeat doses of pertussis vaccine.

I can’t find this study on PubMed or on the Clinical Trials website. As I said, that’s probably because the results were negative, and thus not deemed interesting enough to publish, which is a shame.

BTW, this article found:

the reported risk of HHEs after whole-cell pertussis vaccine has been estimated at 1 per 1000 to 1 per 6000 doses. […] This study also demonstrated a significant decrease (60% 67%) in HHEs after the switch to acellular pertussis-based vaccine.

There were 68 cases of HHE after 2.2 million doses of aP vaccine, that’s 1 case for every 370,000 doses. Not as rare as 1 in a million, but since there is no evidence of permanent sequelae, I don’t see that as particularly worrying.

I don’t care if you feel ‘belittled.’ You ‘wished’ to see a copy of the paper but couldn’t even bother to actually click on the link to see if you could access it.

You can feel as belittled as you want but it won’t change the fact that the evidence is not on your side.

And that was belittling , Adam.

Says the person who has falsely accused people of being Nazis, of being delusional, of refusing to accept vaccine injuries and of calling autistic people evil. Belittled by being politely informed that they failed to click on a link? Really?

If you don’t like being insulted, don’t insult people. It’s called the Golden Rule.

I hate getting involved in a long, drawn-out thread/ argument:

but SERIOUSLY why is SBC a oroblem- he simply describes characteristics that are common, even defining, features of autism?

Understanding others’ motives and making inferences about their thoughts are clearly important abilities and these are precisely where people with ASDs have difficulties. When you study developmental psychology, usually general cognitive abilities are differentiated from more socially-based abilities.This is not new news.

brains,
I just noticed this:

According to a recent paper w/some governmental the DTaP decreased the numbers of HHE’s from one in 1700 to one in 7000 (0.14 per thousand) although in the same paper it noted that the DTaP decreased HHE responses from 80 to 90%…so either that or the 1 in 1700 is wrong.
Anyhow…..for an incidence of 1 in 700 (90%off of 7000), which is only slightly less than the incident of severe autism which everyone is losing their minds over……We have one long term study.

You have that back to front. A 90% decrease in 1 in 7,000 is not 1 in 700, it is 0.1 in 7,000, or 1 in 70,000. The study I cited above found an incidence of 1 in 370,000 after aP.

No, Kreb…let me see if I can get this right….DTaP was a 90% decrease in the incidence of HHE…..so, the DTwP incidence would have been 90% higher.

Denise: science doesn’t have a good record in their treatment of autism. Whether he did it purposely or not, he implied that autistics were not human because they lacked essential qualities.

Adam, I was talking about the 1989 long term study with the numbers on kids who spoke spanish.

SciMom: Sorry about that. Ritalin and I have a complicated history, so when people talk about it I kind of have a knee jerk response. It wasn’t so much the ritalin itself, but starting the dose again after vacations was a special little hell.

DW: but SERIOUSLY why is SBC a oroblem- he simply describes characteristics that are common, even defining, features of autism?

From my readings around the net, it seems that the most serious bone some people have to pick is the ‘extreme male brain theory’ which makes it very, very difficult for autistic women and girls to get the right diagnosis and also is occasionally used as an excuse to not provide proper treatment (hormones, support) to trans individuals who are also autistic. Never heard of him calling autistic people outright evil though.

I don’t believe other than the one study I referred to, they have looked at any possible long term sequalia.

That’s not how I read him at all.

I have to depart: this thread is rather irksome loading…

Adam, I’m feeling a little too paranoid to download anything off the web right now. Do you have another way to access that study?

I subscribe to Pediatrics, and I provided a link to a pdf of the study, which i really shouldn’t have done. the link is not a direct download, but shows the name of the file before you choose to download anything. If you choose not to download and read the paper you wished for, that’s on you.

MY comment was for ‘use’

@ PGP: I was referring to the ‘theory of mind’ not the male stuff

I unwillingly must exit – my computer hates this thread

If you don’t have a local university or college with a decent health science library pretty much any local librarian should be able to help you get it from interlibrary loan from the one of them. Just bring the full reference (authors, title, journal, volume and page numbers.

No, Kreb…let me see if I can get this right….DTaP was a 90% decrease in the incidence of HHE…..so, the DTwP incidence would have been 90% higher.

Sorry, I misunderstood. I know you have personal reasons, but why should we be concerned about the wP vaccine? It isn’t in use any more, anywhere as far as I know.

I was talking about the 1989 long term study with the numbers on kids who spoke spanish.

None of the HHE kids in that study spoke Spanish, though some of those that had febrile convulsions did.
Looking at the 8 children that had HHE, I see that one had an articulatory defect related to a familial speech problem, one had Goldenhar syndrome which is a rare congenital defect and one had exhibited rapid, alternating movements which are linked to a mutation in SLC18A2. None of these neurological problems could plausibly have been caused by the vaccine. Two were not assessed, but were doing well at school (one was a grade behind attributed to frequent moves), the rest were normal.

And that was belittling , Adam

Then start acting like an adult and actually reading what people post for you. I’m inclined to agree with Brook@715.

Also, the cafe au lait spots would be indicative of neurofibromatosis and/or tuberous sclerosis. No, the pre-existing conditions may have no bearing on the neurological problems.

I mean…they may be the sole cause of the HHE…but it is a reaction not seen in any other incidence. It’s pretty scary.

It’s pretty scary.

I don’t doubt it. Febrile convulsions can also be terrifying if you have never witnessed anyone fitting before.

If you need a copy of a more recent paper, an email to the corresponding author (last in the list of authors, usually) politely requesting a copy often works.

Krebs….for the love of god and all that is holy, I am on my third triple whiskey….I had seen fits before, and that’s why I thought it was nothing…because I’d never seen anyone die from a fit…I new shit like that just happened. But i was afraid to be thought mad for having a child who had a reaction to a vaccine…so we didn’t go to the doctor I just held him and prayed.

I’m nuts….I don’t care anymore…stop me…because it all just came up today and Ben, bless his heart, a bartender like grandma gave me two triple shots of whiskey. I’m on my third now.

I don’t want to be responsible for the death of millions of kids….that’s what you put on parents that say anything. and you have the gifted intellect to refute everything they say, and I am drunk…

Um generally if you are drunk enough to post like you are a computer failing the Turin Test, it’s time to put the bottle and computer down and go to bed.

Honey, I don’t know what the Turin test is….stop with that. and I am going to bed…hopefully……but you don’t know the shame you place on parents who …whatever, it’s not science…and I should be ashamed of myself…but you create monsters. Can you imagine being responsible for the death of millions of kids by saying anything? .

Many people point out that Simon Baron Cohen seems to lack empathy towards autistics.

I’m not actually interested in what “many people” (unnamed, not further specified) allegedly think about Dr Baron Cohen’s alleged lack of empathy. I’m interested in explicit claims, made by UTBGGY, that “Simon Baron Cohen […] called my son evil“. So that was all made up bullsh1t? I am so disappoint.

any parent who says anything is responsible for children’s deaths…that’s a heavy load to carry…

@Use – get some rest. We can be a bit of a mean & nasty bunch in certain circumstances (lord knows we’ve all been called much worse – some of us even to the point where anti-vax individuals attempt to get us fired from our jobs)….but we are also extremely empathetic to those that have an open mind and are willing to listen to others and evidence.

Just my $0.02

I don’t know what to say anymore… I used to love science…I hope I pass out soon….

usethebrains, you appear to believe that your child has suffered some lasting sequelae from an episode of HHE, as the result of receiving a DtaP vaccination.

The problem is that you’re approaching the question from teh wrong end, questioning if enough studies have been done (especially ones looking at long-term outcomes following HHE) to prove this could not have been the case, rather than if studies have been done indicating it most likely was the case. The studies which have been done indicate that HHE, associated with DTap vaccination or otherwise, does not result in lasting neurological or lntellecttual damage.

As for SBC and Frith, they simply did not say what you thought they said–and even if they did, their statements wouldn’t argue that vaccines are unsafe or the HHE your son experienced caused lasting damage.

As for how many of us are autistic, what relevance does that bear? Surely you’re not suggesting that unless one is autistic they cannot comprehend the body of existing evidence nor derive valid conclusions from it with respect to vaccine safety and efficacy.

I am mean and nasty also…but you don’t know the load you place on parents who look at what they see and wonder if it is the vaccine….You shame them into silence. And that is not science….

I am just here, I am not putting this on AofA or whatever….I have a scientific bent….

You shame them into silence

How?? You’ve been the opposite of silent. Nobody here has told you to be silent.
How do you think we feel, being called evil child killers simply for examining the evidence and disagreeing with you?

I wish you knew how scientific my mind was…. I didn’t ask for that kind of mind….

You are making me responsible for the death of millions of children…no wonder most parent’s don’t speak out…..

You don’t know what you do to parents who question the science….1979…the last long term study …oh, my God, I hope nobody sees this because I don’t want children to die because of me….You don’t know what you do to parents…you create monsters….

I’ll be down soon, and you can pretend like this never even happened. Good for you…

You’ve got to be joking me….

“First of all, “the final solution” was, specifically, “to the Jewish question.””

It began with the death of Baby Bauer in a ‘mercy killing’.What it became was the final solution. But how it began was the mercy killing of a handicapped child.

No. I guess I was unclear, after all. So here we go. Third time’s the charm:

You said:

The final solution began with a legalization of mercy killing by Hitler signing a document that gave certain doctors the ability to decide who was worthy of life.

No it didn’t. “The final solution” was a euphemistic Nazi way of saying “our plan to exterminate European Jewry.”

Literally. That’s what it was. “The final solution to the Jewish question.” Or, in German, “die Endlösung der Judenfrage”

And it originated at the Wannsee Conference in 1941.

Both the final solution and the non-voluntary euthanasia program that you’re talking about were eugenicist.

But that doesn’t make the non-voluntary euthanasia program a part of the final solution, which was — specifically — to the Jewish question.

No, I’m not joking. You can look it up.

If the elitists don’t exist, what are autistics so afraid of?

(a) Who said elitists don’t exist? What I said was that although eugenicist thinking flourished for a few decades a century ago, it’s universally rejected and scorned by everyone (except neo-Nazis) in the present.

Including elites. Which exist.

(b) A lot of people are afraid of spiders. Which also exist.

Doesn’t mean they pose a real threat, though.

And if that effing HHE hurt my son ala Gershwins and I find out, somebody is going to pay.

That’s very unchristian of you. What are you, some kind of atheist?

How many of you are autistic?

I’m not. I did have an HHE in response to the pertussis vaccine though.

empathy

It’s a two-way street, you know.

Maybe you should try setting an example. Better to give than receive, and all that.

WHY DID THEY REMOVE THIMEROSAL IF THERE WAS NO BENEFIT, BUT WOULD INSTEAD CAUSE THEM TO LOSE MONEY?
No one has ever addressed that obvious question.

Well. Removing it meant more profits for big pharma. Maybe it was a conspiracy.

Poor Desmond, a black guy who came to the door….He’s praying for me, though, y’all. You are messing with the big guy, cause nobody knows like a black man what it is to stand against those who would hope to belittle you…

And should you read this when you sober up.

I don’t think anyone here says you, personally, want to kill millions of kids. (although I think the anti-science crowd does think anyone with a scientific type of mind is that evil by definition).

However when you advocate for something you have to acknowledge the risks of taking that position. The risks for being pro-vax are known, rare, and we think any child harmed should be compensated so any real harms that are ongoing are taken care of (at least I think I speak for most of us).

Most in the anti-vax do not want to in any way acknowledge there could be a risk of any kind from preventable illnesses. Either they say the illnesses won’t happen to anyone in contrast to all available evidence, or they say no one will be harmed.

If I fever from a vaccine can cause harm, why is a fever from an illness considered safe or even beneficial to all who get it.

That is why some of us get a bit harsh. There is this fantasy world out there where no one will die from things we know killed millions in the past. That getting illness after illness, fever, after fever, rash after rash will somehow make kids much healthier and smarter, and better, and faster and stronger.

Even though in countries where that still happens to some kids those kids are generally smaller, and weaker and thrive even worse than most other kids in the same country with the same amount of food, resources.

So, why was Thimerosal removed? Because the companies were told to do so by the government….the same government that these anti-vax whack-jobs claim is in the pocket of Big Pharma.

It shows serious mental issues when these same people can crow every time a company is fined by the government & out of the same mouth, claim that the government is covering up for these same companies.

They can’t keep their own conspiracies straight….

the Turin test

Let’s see… that would be the radiocarbon dating of a piece of brain tissue?

UTBGGY:I wish you knew how scientific my mind was.

From what you’ve demonstrated here, you wouldn’t know science if it bit you. And stop pretending to be drunk, it doesn’t score any points here.

usethebrains…

You don’t know what you do to parents who question the science….1979…the last long term study …

What do you want me to do? Lie to you and tell you I believe your child was damaged by vaccines when the evidence doesn’t support that conclusion, just so I don’t hurt your feelings?

BTW, the last published study on the long-term effects of HHE after wP was published in 1988, not 1979. Since the acellular pertussis vaccine was licensed in 1991, and the study I cited above found HHE occurs after only 1 in 370,000 doses, and has no permanent sequalae, I see no cause for concern.

oh, my God, I hope nobody sees this because I don’t want children to die because of me….

Stop telling lies about vaccines and your conscience will be clear.

You don’t know what you do to parents…you create monsters….

What should a person who understands the science in this area do when they come across someone making statements that are not true? You came into this discussion with the words:

PBS special on vaccines supposedly says only one in one million kids are harmed by vaccines. That’s a bullsh!t sundae with cat crap cream on top! […] Aw, swweeeet Jesus, the stupid we are expected to swallow burns,burns. […]

You also accused us of “minion’s bobble headed reasoning”. I’d say you were spoiling for a fight, and when you got one you started complaining that you are being oppressed.

Despite this provocation, I and others responded very politely to you, pointing out that the evidence supports the 1 in a million figure. You responded with:

One in a million is still bullsh!t. It’s a cynical meme that has no basis in reality.

What if I had told you that your claims that your child was damaged by vaccines were “a bullsh!t sundae with cat crap cream on top!” What if when you objected to this, I had started wailing that you were turning me into a monster? I imagine you would have about as much respect for me as I have for you right now.

That was about the CDC. The goal posts shifted:

WHY was Denmark monitoring an “autism” rate along with vaccine data ANYWAY? Did they suspect something?

WHY did Denmark remove Thimerosal from infant/child vaccines anyway? The Thimerosal makes the vaccines CHEAPER and gives them a longer shelf-life.

WHY JGC??????

WHY OH WHY OH WHY?

(^^Rhetorical question on my part.

Because personally, I’m satisfied that the entire autism-vaccine hypothesis is part of a great big conspiracy by pharma. Take stuff out. Put stuff in. It keeps their wares under patent.)

Usethebrains…
Please go get some help. The professional kind – not the internet kind. And not out of a bottle, because it’s not doing you any good.

Please go get some help.

@DW….When I want intellectual stimulation, lots of fun overnight or whatever, it’s with men my own age. The young men are sheer window dressing and therefore, paid. (not really…I don’t actually go out with gigolos. If I had my check, I’d spend it on FAR more important things……)

MI Dawn, might I ask a range of how old are you from 20-29, 30-39 and so on? Also, do you share similar feelings as other woman your age?

the reason I ask is that, I’ve been collecting data over a royal lot of years and despite being myself (which mean, I will always work hard to support my future wife’s goal in life, always. I will never take her for granted. That, you can be assured of. the rest, we’ll deal with it when we cross the bridge).

Thing is, I met a mate who was very interested in me but then, I made the successful move that I was a beneficiary of Social Security Disability at that time, just before being hired by SAP and now, I live on the 22nd floor of a 30 floors high-rise building with everything included (the usual + swimming pool, gym, 512mbps internet connexion for now…we’re 150 residents…and finally, 10 minutes walk from work).

The thing is, I met a royal lot of woman over 35 and never was a suitable candidate for them despite my linkedin growing by 5 times since last week with employees from SAP and getting known by my first name from peoples I don’t know in the company. I must have a secret but the only time I’ve been successful lately is with an Iranian woman who recently immigrated in Canada after living all her life in Iran and going through a rough patch in life.

Sincerely, I care for her a whole lot much more than any Caucasian female I ever met here (you mostly know where I am) because, there’s absolutely no game involved and we both are similar: we say what we think and we think what we say, based on sound premises.

Good night.

Alain

I thought too fast for my writing.

The woman who contacted me, we exchanged several emails (including the disclosure of my diagnostic) but when I told her I was on SSD right before I was hired by SAP, that was a huge turn-off. That’s it.

Alain

@usethebrainsgodgiveyou

Pretty lady, don’t let’em get all subcutaneous up your butt. If one is not sufficiently self-flippant then, at times, these forums (and I suspect much of it is truely in good-hearted jest) can easily induce a sort of rapid onset ‘dysphoria’, especially after a 911 anniversary mixed drink blender bender and the ongoing magnetospheric oscillations of 200 nT.

It may be therapeutic to get to know your perceived foes —

Take *Krebiozen*:

If the representations of the owners and promoters of Krebiozen possess any degree of validity then there is nothing to lose and much to gain from such an objective analysis. Failure to accede to such an objective evaluation can be interpreted as an expression of fear or doubt concerning the results of removal of the secrecy which has persistently shrouded Krebiozen through the eight years of his promotion.

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=325756

Krebiozen, Who pay you?? **grins**

@Alain: I have a 27 year old daughter and she was born when I was in my mid-twenties. Therefor my rule of thumb has always been that I won’t date anyone I could have given birth to (and considering menarche in the USA runs around age 12 or so, I feel that’s fair…)

I am curious to know what people here think Dr. Thompson is suggesting when he states ” I believe that the final study protocol was not followed.” Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Hooker has coughed up a clue:

“The study protocol agreed upon by the CDC on September 5, 2001 definitively stated that ‘The only variable available to be assessed as a potential confounder using the entire sample is child’s race.’ Thus, the effect of race on autism incidence could have (and should have) been assessed in the entire sample….”

What do you want to bet that whatever followed stated nothing other than the need to control for more confounders?

data from African Americans without birth certificates were removed.

Maybe I’ve missed something here, but if the only place the children’s race was recorded was on the birth certificate, how did they know that a child without a birth certificate was African American?

I should have read further before commenting here. Hooker now claims that data on race was available from “birth chart records” and school records and not from birth certificates. I thought commenters here had established that this data is available on the long-form birth certificate. There’s a can of worms here that might require some respectful insolence methinks.

How many of you are autistic?
I was examined as a youngling. The conclusion was that although my younger self was weird, it was a different kind of weirdness.

HDB,

a different kind of weirdness

Isn’t that an Incubus track?

As for autism, I scored 8 on Simon Baron-Cohen’s test, which I guess makes me the opposite of autistic. I do tend to see the bigger picture at the expense of details. I once failed to recognize a close friend of mine in the pub after he had shaved off his beard, and it took me a few minutes of conversation before I recognized him, which was weird. Beer was involved, so that might have been an anomaly, had it not happened again, with a chap I knew casually, and failed to recognize, which he got quite cross about. It’s interesting how different our neurologies are within the neurotypical range.

I scored 25. Don’t know what that means. When I was young, my parents took me to some things, to find out what was wrong with me, not really having much friends, being very much on myself and sometimes reacting somewhat weird and aggressive if things didn’t work out the way I wanted. I remember trowing newspapers and magazines around and once I broke a small window in the door, because I wasn’t allowed to take a book with me, when I went to school. I loved to read, but didn’t hear the schoolbell when I was reading, wich resulted in having the book I was reading taken away. I got some diagnoses, which would roughly translate as ‘un-child’. I also got some diagnosis as MBD.
Some years ago someone wanted me to be tested for autism, which I refused. I don’t really need a label. I know I’m a bit weird, not having much friends, not really being able to make friends and reacting quite weird if things go wrong and I don’t know what to do.

Oh, dear, it’s AQ time? I was well into the 30s when a shrink suggested it as homework,* or something. Conclusion: “clinically relevant.”

This was a fairly ironic remark to hear coming from a let’s-have-40-minutes-of-awkward-silence Rogerian.

* I even had a friend who didn’t know what it was supposed to measure check my work.

I scored 25 if that is any consolation. But that was mostly due to a combination of a very good memory, a liking for patterns and numbers and enough deafness to make social occasions difficult.

At least that is my excuse.

My memory for numbers isn’t that good, funny thing is, I’m pretty good with numbers. And I’m far from deaf, actually I hear everything, like dripping taps and other noises, which can be quite annoiing.

It’s not exactly an exact science, is it? I wonder how much of what it measures is innate and how much learned.

I do tend to see the bigger picture at the expense of details. I once failed to recognize a close friend of mine in the pub after he had shaved off his beard

The thing is, I like art. I like it a lot. My mental memory palace is based on the Gemäldegalerie and the Alte Nationalgalerie, combined with the Alte- and Neue-Pinototek and the Prado and the National Gallery and the Hirschsprung Collection.
Anyway, it is quite possible that I can learn new faces *without* forgetting a painting. But why that that chance?

HDB,

My mental memory palace is based on the Gemäldegalerie and the Alte Nationalgalerie, combined with the Alte- and Neue-Pinototek and the Prado and the National Gallery and the Hirschsprung Collection.

Mine’s based on my childhood home, but one room is full of footballs and another full of clocks, for reasons I fail to recall, which defeats the object really. When do I clear out old stuff? If never, do I build on new rooms, a large conservatory? A loft conversion? Another storey? I should do some more work on this I suppose, it seems to work for Derren Brown (and Hannibal Lecter).

but one room is full of footballs and another full of clocks, for reasons I fail to recall, which defeats the object really
Do you also have cats wandering through getting in the way when you’re trying to remember things?

it seems to work for Derren Brown (and Hannibal Lecter).
Due to poor choice of grandparents, I have the Mads Mikkelsen accent, though sadly not the appearance..

I scored 25 if that is any consolation.
I fess up to occasionally doing jigsaw puzzles upside down as a child, so as not to be distracted by the pictures. I have not checked but I suspect it’s a bad sign.

Do you also have cats wandering through getting in the way when you’re trying to remember things?

Frequently, sometimes in my memory palace too.

Due to poor choice of grandparents, I have the Mads Mikkelsen accent, though sadly not the appearance..

I think you’re better off with the accent, though perhaps his fine performance as Hannibal has skewed my reaction to his appearance.

I fess up to occasionally doing jigsaw puzzles upside down as a child, so as not to be distracted by the pictures. I have not checked but I suspect it’s a bad sign.

Nah, as I’ve said before, normal’s over-rated.

Ah, the infamous AQ test. I’ve score 38 – 42 at different times, but then I already suspected I was on the spectrum. Still dithering about whether its worthwhile to get an “official” diagnosis since I’m now 31 years old.

I never actually created a memory palace despite studying this stuff…

However I seem to have ridiculously good abilities for new and foreign words and quite clear visual imagery- I can scan memory images of places I have visited including those I have only seen once. I can memorise maps so I rarely need to carry them about and/ or rely upon that ((((shudder)))) GPS car device.

I never did much with jigsaw puzzles but liked the camouflaged figures ( “Can you pick out the hidden whatevers in this scene?” testing field independence /dependence I suppose) and OBVIOUSLY anagrams, crosswords etc.

It may not reflect on my NT-status but because of my artistic ability perhaps- as I could draw realistically very early on which earned me praise and MONEY!

I was once recruited as a guinea pig by Birkbeck College psychology department for an experiment looking at whether subliminal words flashed on a screen affected the subject’s subsequent behavior (I forget what precisely as we didn’t get that far). When I pointed out that I could see all of the words that weren’t supposed to be consciously visible they didn’t believe me, until I demonstrated by reading them out as they appeared. I was excluded from the study, but still got my £10. I always wondered if that said anything about my neurology.

It isn’t a very useful mental superpower though it saves me lots of money on coke and popcorn at the movie theater .

I find there are many things such as the following. These are things that you never hear about in school or in your medical training but seem to be an actual part of the real history of the world:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment

Why should I feel enthusiastic about an establishment where experts go on NPR and claim that vitamins and minerals have little or no value and your average doctor seems to not know much about basic nutrition, vitamins. Pretty much every herbal treatment, every and all alternative treatments that have been used for thousands of years are laughed at and attacked by your atheist promoters. With the cost of health insurance going up, people end up going bankrupt.

To all you doctors on this blog, I avoid you like the plague. I am wise to the nonsensical promotion of prostate tests, vaccine brainwashing at all the pharmacies. I resent that the government is forcing me to pay all this money for health insurance so you can live in your big houses.

Whenever I go to a pharmacy I see one of the clerks who has the button on that says ‘get your vaccinations today’, I ask them if they got their vaccination. Most of them laugh and realize it’s all a big scam. Inject aluminum into your body ? Doesn’t aluminum cause Alzheimer latter in life ..

I’m sure many of you believe the brainwashing you have received in your medical education, so in some sense I feel sorry for you I guess ..

Human medical experimentation in the United States: The shocking true history of modern medicine and psychiatry (1833-1965)

http://www.naturalnews.com/019189.html

@Larz,

I find there are many things such as the following. These are things that you never hear about in school or in your medical training but seem to be an actual part of the real history of the world:

How do you know what I or anyone else here heard about in school? Please be specific on your source of knowledge for the particular case of the Tuskegee syphilis experiments. I don’t believe any reasonable person would deny they took place. A quick Google search show that it seems to be discussed in a variety of courses in various universities.

Why should I feel enthusiastic about an establishment where experts go on NPR and claim that vitamins and minerals have little or no value

They do this because the science shows that people who eat a varied diet get all the vitamins and minerals they need from their food. Use of vitamin and mineral supplements has not been demonstrated to have a health value unless you are suffering from some deficiency.

and your average doctor seems to not know much about basic nutrition, vitamins./blockquote>Citation needed, please. In particular, what basic nutrition information do you believe the average doctor doesn’t know that would be important to their practice?

Pretty much every herbal treatment, every and all alternative treatments that have been used for thousands of years are laughed at and attacked by your atheist promoters.

In what way is it wrong to demand proof that a treatment be both safe and effective? Over the centuries people have used a variety of treatments that have been shown to be ineffective or outright harmful. Asking for objective evidence that a treatment is effective would seem to be the minimum level of due diligence.

In what way does someone’s belief in a deity play into the discussion of traditional or alternative treatments? Is it better if someone with a strong spiritual background says an herbal remedy doesn’t work rather than if an atheist does so? Is, say, a Christian more likely to embrace unproven therapies?

Doesn’t aluminum cause Alzheimer latter in life .

It is my understanding that the current best evidence shows that it doesn’t.

I’m sure many of you believe the brainwashing you have received in your medical education, so in some sense I feel sorry for you I guess ..

I’m sure the feeling is mutual. It is sad to see someone so confused about the world, and I hope you really think about some of the things you’ve said and how wrong they are.

@Larz

Funny you should refer to the Tuskeegee Experiment. That particular experiment bears a very close resemblance to the Big Experiment that your antivax buds keep yelling for: the double-blind Vax vs No-Vax Study.
You also use Natural News as a reference. I also in some sense feel sorry for you (if by “feeling sorry” means pointing and laughing).

Larz: ” Pretty much every herbal treatment, every and all alternative treatments that have been used for thousands of years are laughed at and attacked by your atheist promoters.”

So Larz, how well do you think vitamins, herbs and other alternative treatments would work for syphilis? Do tell us, because that is all the Tuskegee subjects were actually really offered. Don’t you think it would have been better if they had been actually given antibiotics?

I came across an interesting discussion about the AD aluminum hypothesis, which should, by rights, be pushing up the daisies, should anyone be interested.

tl:dr;? Here’s a soundbite:

First, contrary to initial indications, aluminum salts do not induce neurofibrillary changes that are similar to the neurofibrillary tangles of AD. Second, the hypothesized similarity between aluminum-induced dialysis encephalopathy and AD was shown to be incorrect: while dialysis encephalopathy is clearly caused by aluminum, neither the symptoms nor the underlying neuropathology bear any resemblance to that of AD. The third, showing an increase in aluminum in the brain with aging, has despite extensive investigation proven to be of unknown functional significance.

“your average doctor seems to not know much about basic nutrition, vitamins.”

Translation: “doctors don’t buy into my goofy theories about nutrition.”

“To all you doctors on this blog, I avoid you like the plague. I am wise to the…vaccine brainwashing ”

In which case, you may wind up carrying the plague (or at least influenza or other vaccine-preventable disease) to your unfortunate contacts.

Whilst I am not a medical doctor, my own education and training went to great lengths to criticise itself:

– clinicians treated mental illness w/o respect for human rights of patients
– people of diverse ethnic origins were treated as second class citizens w/o consideration of communication/ social differences
-gay people were labelled as mentally ill
– women were marginalised
– research in the third world didn’t take cultural differences into account when investigating cognition
– testing was biased towards the privileged classes
– intelligence tests were biased through fixed data ( Burt)
– early research had little real world applicability
– some experiments were inhumane

I could go on but won’t
-btw- I’m an atheist
but LORD this thread is a b!tch to type/ load!

I see one of the clerks who has the button on that says ‘get your vaccinations today’, I ask them if they got their vaccination. Most of them laugh and realize it’s all a big scam

Strange! When *I* fo to the pharmacy, most of the pharmacists laugh and tell me that Larz is making stuff up.

I have a mental double-wide, not a mental palace. The upkeep’s better suited to my thought budget.

Big houses? Primary care doctors don’t live in big houses. They’ve been thoroughly proletarianized by the corporate health care system, and live in little pink houses like you and me. MDs of the world, you have nothing to lose but the compound interest on your Med school loans!

I suppose I’d resent the government for forcing me to pay for Larz’ health insurance, if he was actually going to the doctor. I do wonder where someone who avoids doctors like the plague gets the scrips for his seemingly regular trip to the pharmacy.

Speaking of Ritalin… Somehow I came down with a chronic ADD (sans H) thing in my 50s w/o any childhood history. Used to take Ritalin. Made me jumpier. As I said on earlier thread, psych med scrips are like tossing darts in the dark. Different people react really differently to small differences in med chemistry. Celexa may be a lifesaver for Tom, do squat for Dick and mess up Harry, with the opposite results for Lexapro which is almost the same thing. My life improved 100+% which they switched me from Ritalin to Adderal. Had a friend with a severely ASD son in CT, loves her.kid to death. If he takes his Ritalin he can go dancing with her at Arthur Murray. Sometimes Ritalin is beautiful.

“I am wise to the nonsensical promotion of prostate tests…” Huh? Do tell! I don’t thing the MD likes sticking their finger up your colon any more than you like getting it stuck up there, so that’s gotta be one heck of a conspiracy.

Took that AQ for fun. Got 18. Doubt it’s reliable. To much depends on how you interpret the terms in a 4 point Likert scale. I refuse to do Likert scales of any kind for realz if I have the option. I’m very bad at that abstract visual skill stuff: puzzles upside down, seeing words in a roll of Boggle cubes. I do understand Baudrillard at least some of the time though, and I wonder what that says about my neurology.

I can’t say normal’s over-rated as I’ve never been. But if you’re ever in Normal, go to Avanti’s for a plate of awesome mid-American style ravioli or spaghetti.

Why are people complaining about being punk’d by Sasha Baron Cohen?
{In which Borat learns Science in America…)
BORAT: A man yesterday, tell me if I buy a car I must buy one with a pussy magnet. Do this have a pussy magnet?
CAR DEALER: No. The vehicle itself would be a magnet.
BORAT: If this car drive into a group of gypsies, will there be any damage to the car?
CAR DEALER: It depends on how hard you hit them and all that..

Cohen has retired Ali G., Borat, Bruno and his other previous personae and is developing new charac…….

Tim??

I am wise to the nonsensical promotion of prostate tests
This sounds like a very personal issue.

Doesn’t aluminum cause Alzheimer latter in life ..
No, you need some other excuse.

No, Sadmar. I still haven’t forgiven the man for that stunt with Ron Paul. Idk, perhaps a kinder, gentler ‘Tim’ should revisit the aforementioned Pustulance of Penzantz’ performance and reconsider his position…

http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7RnlPQCKBQ

Umm… Just vote for pedro…

I do understand Baudrillard

I had to look that one up. Much to my surprise, it was not an old terminal emulator like Kermit…

Bruno did make a mistake with Ron Paul there…

He should have gotten him drunk first.

Ron complained to his son, but amazingly Rand he didn’t do anything about it.

Since SBC isn’t doing Bruno anymore, I think it’s safe for Tim to reconsider his, uhh… position.

Scienceblogs as a brand is all about pushing mainstream science fraud. You guys must really be twisting in the wind over this one.

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