Antivaccine cranks try to create Vaccine Injury Awareness Month. Everyone either yawns or laughs.

Oh Margaret…what a bunch of dopes!

On a more serious note, re: breast cancer awareness: Someone told me that doctors are now recommending routine screening ultrasounds rather than mammograms for women with dense breast tissue because the ultrasound is far more sensitive. Since I’m one of those women, and scheduled for a mammogram next month, I’d appreciate some expert advice from Orac or any other specialists on this blog.

@Todd…ugh, I hadn’t noticed the black ribbon. There’s a reason no other group uses it because black=death. I gotta think, knowing these loons, that they picked it on purpose.

And since this is, after all, Breast Cancer Awareness Month, a former b.f.f. of imprisoned serial scammer Kevin Trudeau, the quacky “Dr.” Leonard Coldwell (who claims to have cured more than 35,000 cancer patients and to have a 92.3% cure rate) hit the ground running on Facebook today with this. It appeared on both his personal page and his public “health” forum, The Only Answer to Cancer:

==BEGIN COLDWELL’S POST==
My comment for today. I am just watching the criminals on the main stream news making billions for the international bankers ( owners of the pharmaceutical and medical industry ) with the breast cancer awareness hoax. Mammograms done prevent cancer they cause cancer. A breast tumor grows 7 to 12 years to a size that they can even find it. There is no need to any hurry and fast surgery and the murder via chemo, radiation and anti hormone therapy in my experience. I can cure every cancer in 2 to 16 weeks. ( not every person but every cancer ). There are over 400 natural cancer cures known today. All these idiots on the News are talking about how they are cured since they are one year after the murderous procedures cancer free – here is some news for you idiots: no you can’t be cured from cancer via slaughter poison and burn! The cancer is only hidden because they killed all body functions and can do so for 3 to 5 years and than they are usually all dead as i experienced. Cancer is systemic the tumor is only the symptom not the cancer. To cure cancer you need to identify and eliminate the root cause of it. Cancer is cause to 86% by mental and emotional stress. If you don’t eliminate that energy draining stress that allows the body to malfunction you can’t eliminate the cancer. It is like pushing a splinter deeper into your skin and stating because you don’t see the splinter anymore it is gone! No it is not and the problem just got worst! The same is true with the symptom treatment and suppression used by the medical industry. Inform yourself http://www.DrLeonardColdwell.com and become a member of the http://www.IBMSMastersSociety.com to learn the truth about cancer cures and prevention based on my personal successes and experiences. Also find out why my books How to survive your illness and your doctor and The Only Answer to cancer are so successful. http://www.shopdrc.com ( I do not make any money on the sales)
===END POST===

Permalink to the post:
https://www.facebook.com/theonlyanswertocancer/posts/300909470117744

In a subsequent comment on the same thread, Coldwell claims (as he has previously claimed) that last year, “they” spent $42 million to “destroy my credibility and reputation.” Presumably he is talking about the big pharmaceutical companies, whom he has accused of endlessly hounding him and even trying to kill him (he claims that he’s been shot at, his car bombed, etc., and that he still has a bullet in his body from one of the hit attempts).

Coldwell has also written disgusting things about Angelina Jolie, claiming she had her breasts sliced off just to make money from (and for) the medical establishment.

Not surprisingly he is also stringently anti-vax and preaches that vaccinations are murder, and/or are a plot by the New World Order to take control of the citizenry. The sad thing is that he has thousands of followers.

Twitter storm?

More like a storm of twits.

I have been reading this blog for over a year, and have been impressed by the insightful, snarky, yet communicative comments. Although the appeals to reactionaries for valid data to back up their claims is not often rewarding, we have to keep it up.

I suggest a measles, mumps, rubella, polio, etc. awareness month. Obviously many of these denialists have no idea what it was like to have these diseases spread unchecked. Humans have short memories. Besides, with the recent upsurge in measles and the like (just up the road from me, actually) – there will be many more examples of those diseases than there are of actual vaccine injury.

And for what? Tomorrow the sun will rise, and we will continue to vaccinate children far and wide and spare them from death and disability. They will not stop this any more than the church’s geocentric view of the universe stopped us from going into space. Their Twitter hashtags and scribbled rants on blogs will be relics for future generations to see how foolish they were in mistaken ideas about how science works.

These people think that we who promote the proper and widespread use of vaccines to prevent horrible nightmares from becoming true are somehow “bullying” them. Ah, but they don’t see any bullying in telling children who have lost limbs to meningitis that others should not be spared their same fate. They don’t see bullying in telling parents who lose children to pertussis that their children are “better off” dead that autistic. And, of course, they don’t see bullying in speaking about their autistic children as “dead” or “gone” right there where their own children can hear them and online where their words will be archived forever.

I neither yawn nor laugh when I see this. I sincerely feel bad for those children who will one day grow up to see how their parents regarded them as less-than-human, as burdens brought upon them by Big Pharma, CDC, or whatever other dark force they want to believe in.

They’re an embarrassment to humankind
.
All my opinion, of course.

Black Ribbons — Shooter Jennings

<killfile>

Somehow exposing people with compromised immunity to VPDs, harassing pharmacy employees, calling vaccine supporters shills and criminals as well as contacting vaccine advocating physicians’ and epidemiologists’ employers are not bullying.

There is a simple solution http://jewishtimes.com/28788/last-thing-vaccine-makers-want-is-study/#.VC030fldXTq

It is so disheartening to hear these glib and frankly stupid arguements. I’m just back from the British Society for Genetic Medicine annual conference where real science is discussed with really smart, clear thinking people like Steve Norad presenting, what a breath of fresh air!

I find all those tweets very sad. I’m sure the great majority of those people sincerely believe that there is a huge cover-up of damage caused by vaccines. They are wrong, and I wish there were a way of convincing them otherwise, but I don’t see any easy way that can be done.

I clicked on one link that claimed, “Millions of Children Infected with Dr. Paul Offit’s Rotateq Vaccine”, which piqued my curiosity. It led to a Sayer Ji article claiming that rotavirus vaccines are contaminated wiith live retroviruses, and linked to a scientific paper to support this. Sayer Ji wrote:

Unfortunately for Dr. Offit (not so affectionately named Dr. Profit), a 2010 study published in Journal of Virology revealed that his multi-million dollar grossing patent on the Rotateq vaccine contains a live simian retrovirus (with a 96% match of certainty) that has likely infected millions of children over the past few years with a virus that causes great harm.

Sounds alarming, doesn’t it? However when I looked at the study itself I found this:

The detection of SRV DNA (or other retroviral sequences) in live-attenuated vaccines, therefore, simply reflects their generation in cells, which contain a large genome load of endogenous retroviruses, rather than the presence of adventitious viruses of concern.

In other words Rotateq does not contain a live simian retrovirus, and it has not “infected millions of children over the past few years”. Neither is SRV “a virus that causes great harm” to humans:

A prior study showed two cases of SRV seroconversion in people with extensive blood and saliva contacts with nonhuman primates presumably following infection with replication-competent SRV. Neither clinical symptoms nor ongoing viremia was observed in these seropositive individuals.

I know I shouldn’t be surprised when I find antivaxxers lying yet again, but I still find it baffling when over and over again I see them make a claim and link to a study that they claim supports their claim, when it actually does the exact opposite.

krebiozen —

I still find it baffling when over and over again I see them make a claim and link to a study that they claim supports their claim, when it actually does the exact opposite.

This is pretty much standard operating procedure over in climate-science-denial land. Among other things, there’s a notorious list of something like 1000 publications purported to dispute the consensus; some of the authors have written indignant commentaries pointing out that their papers do no such thing.

@1 Michelle

I may have missed Orac’s or others’ replies. My apologies.

Ultrasound is an extremely lousy screening tool since it is very specific, but _not_ very sensitive. At least that was our experience back in the 1970s and 1980s at the Indiana University School of medicine (Harper, Kelly-Fry, Noe, among other authors.)

Our results which are old but still valid, were pretty much 100% accurate in differentiating between benign and malignant solid masses, and over 98 % accurate in cystic masses. We could also pick up rather rare masses. I recall a mucinous carcinoma that simply didn’t show on X-ray mammography.

HOWEVER!!! Ultrasound just doesn’t pick up anything much under 2-3mm in diameter. Simple physics, based on wavelength. We could never pick up microcalcifications which X-ray is very capable of seeing.

Let’s Just Say, (TM from another list) Michael Moskowitz is a minor hero of mine, when it comes to screening.

@Connie Schmidt #5

Coldwell has also written disgusting things about Angelina Jolie, claiming she had her breasts sliced off just to make money from (and for) the medical establishment.

Love how he thinks that Jolie could make more money without her breasts than with them. Big Pharma must pay out more than Hollywood.

kaiseih: “You should thank god none of you or yours a vaccine injured.”

Which “god”? Why should I thank an imaginary deity when I have a child had seizures from an actual disease?

Please, do provide the verifiable scientific evidence that any vaccine on the American pediatric schedule causes more seizures than the disease. Come up with that, or we will assume that you get kickbacks from “Big Hospital Supply”, and your income is dependent on people getting sick.

Ya know, I had a vaccine injury once…the nurse messed up the injection and had to prick my arm a second time! Now y’all are aware of that, so I have fulfilled my obligations for the month. Right?

I can’t believe there are actually people on this page, including Orac, posing as scientists. Orac seems like a cowardly, nameless front. And Liz Ditz, with a name like that, who actually listens to you? Sink your dull teeth into this:
Vaccine Injury: The Biological Plausibility of Microbial Predisposition
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/vaccine-injury-biological-plausibility-microbial-predisposition

Roadstergal: Amen.

Here’s another interesting fact:

The terms “allergy” and “anaphylaxis” were created following a strange illness that affected up to 50% of vaccinated children at the close of the 1800s. This illness was simply called “serum sickness” and followed the first mass administration of diphtheria anti-toxin sera. Austrian pediatrician Clemens von Pirquet studied the illness at length and observed that the symptoms of this sickness resembled those in people who were hypersensitive to pollens and bee stings. To better describe this ‘altered reactivity’ to the sera he created the Latin derived word allergy in 1906.

Hmm, I wonder if vaccines could contain any peanut proteins? Surely not, that would be too obvious.

@Stu – oh, and I’m yawning, just so you know.

The terms “allergy” and “anaphylaxis” were created following a strange illness that affected up to 50% of vaccinated children at the close of the 1800s.

In which strange alternative universe did this occur?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaphylaxis#History

Have you seen this study?
Self-Organized Criticality Theory of Autoimmunity

Let me google that for you:
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2014/04/04/completing-a-trio-of-antivaccine-sympathetic-california-pediatricians/#comment-324200

Hmm, I wonder if vaccines could contain any peanut proteins? Surely not, that would be too obvious.

Let me google that for you:
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2012/02/09/yes-virginia-there-is-an-antivaccine-movement/#comment-181104

@Stu – and your evidence that it was created to “describe vaccine injury” is what exactly?

Also, you do realize that vaccines aren’t given intravenously, right?

No the word Allergy was invented to describe the vaccine injury to the children in the late 1800′s.

Let me google that for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allergy#History

@Stu

Re: “Allergy”

It was actually coined in 1911 by Clemens E. von Pirquet to describe hypersensitivity reactions in some people who were given a second dose of horse serum or smallpox vaccine.

So what’s you’re point? Are you trying to argue that vaccines are responsible for all allergies? Hypersensitivity reactions have been around since before the word was coined.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone use argumentum ad etymology before.

You are cutting and pasting from SmartVax again, about an adjuvant that was never licensed and never used.. The claim has been discussed here before: let me google it for you —
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2014/03/05/pediatricians-versus-the-dunning-kruger-effect-on-vaccines/#comment-322336

Hypersensitivity to dust and pollen has been around for centuries due to access through nasal and other vulnerable places. Food allergies are new and have been shown to be induced by vaccines.

Food allergies are new and have been shown to be induced by vaccines.

If you’re going to start jabbering about nonexistent peanut-oil adjuvants, I suggest you just go away now.

If you understood acquired immunity, then it would be pretty obvious that injecting organ/tissue cells or food proteins directly into your system would cause your body to create a defense against them.
Inject lung cells like many vaccines contain, you are likely to have lung problems,
Inject legume proteins, you are likely to have problems with legumes.

To better describe this ‘altered reactivity’ to the sera he created the Latin derived word allergy in 1906.

Oops.

GRAS ingredients – Generally Regarded As Safe, do not have to be listed on vaccine ingredient lists. This can include oils that still contain trace amounts of legume or other proteins. We don’t know what some vaccines include because they dont tell us.
The circumstantial evidence point to peanuts

Inject lung cells like many vaccines contain, you are likely to have lung problems,
Inject legume proteins, you are likely to have problems with legumes.

Inject immunoglobulin, and you’re likely to have problems with… what?

GRAS ingredients – Generally Regarded As Safe, do not have to be listed on vaccine ingredient lists.

You’re a fυcking moron. GRAS has nothing to do with biologics labeling, genius. Have you ever noticed that sucrose is listed.

Forget bingo – I think Stu is going for anti-vax Powerball!!!!

Clearly you are a scholar of the great man. Can you quote a relevant passage of his words?

The original from the Münchener medizinische Wochenschrift is here. The subsequent monograph is here.

Yes, go ahead & trust in “God” who allowed for a 50% child mortality rate, a life expectancy of about 35 – 40 years & people pretty much living in abject poverty……

If (imaginary) peanut oil in vaccines causes peanut allergy, why do Jewish children in the UK have a prevalence of peanut allergy 10-fold higher than that of Jewish children in Israel? Vaccination rates are similar in both countries. The study I cited suggests that avoidance of peanuts during infancy leads to increased risk of peanut allergy, not early exposure to peanuts.

Narad:

GRAS has nothing to do with biologics labeling, genius. Have you ever noticed that sucrose is listed.

Heck, even water gets listed.

@Krebiozen

How do the different groups get the peanuts? With me, it’s always been peanut butter. It ‘was’ one of my staple foods. I can’t eat it anymore — It comes up all night with whatever else I tried to eat. I’m not blaming the peanuts but the soybean oil that’s ubiquitous to it now. I’d guess that if people would just learn not to be allergic to the BT (crygen(tm) toxin or whatever the shit is called) and Monsanto FuckUp(tm) then they wouldn’t be so much of a problem — not to worry though as those not tolerant will apparently die out soon enough.

If (imaginary) peanut oil in vaccines causes peanut allergy, why do Jewish children in the UK have a prevalence of peanut allergy 10-fold higher than that of Jewish children in Israel?

Because they secretly use sesame oil in Israeli vaccines, silly.

If (imaginary) peanut oil in vaccines causes peanut allergy

Homeopathic allergy?

Or could you suggest a cheap alternative?

I get the Frumpy Scientist costume for free.

Check out the clueless Mayo Clinic with no explanation for why African Americans respond with twice as many antibodies as other groups to rubella vaccination. It’s the gut flora, stupid!

Narad, thanks for your attention. Flora like bifidobacteria regulate immune response in Peyer’s patches of the small intestine, affect antibody production and promote B-cell maturation. When will Editor-In-Chief of the journal Vaccine and head of Mayo’s Vaccine Research Group, Dr. Gregory Poland, get with the web of life? His sterile construct is about genes in disregard of microbial regulation of genes.
http://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-discovers-african-americans-respond-better-to-rubella-vaccine/

CDC’s William Thompson admitted data suggested African American males are at greater risk of autism by MMR. The reason is their immune systems react differently based on flora balance. Vaccine injury is real.
http://www.morganverkamp.com/august-27-2014-press-release-statement-of-william-w-thompson-ph-d-regarding-the-2004-article-examining-the-possibility-of-a-relationship-between-mmr-vaccine-and-autism/

“CDC’s William Thompson admitted data suggested African American males are at greater risk of autism by MMR.”

Why should we take anyone seriously when they don’t even read where Dr. Thompson has been extensively discussed on this blog.

Here is an hint: go to the top of this page, look for the bold words “Search this blog.” Then put Dr. Thompson’s name in the box.

I learned not to bring up any deity on this blog. You guys hone in on that like… Like cats on a laser pointer or something.

Anyway, here’s another sobering thought for the Dachelbot: All of those kids also drank water. Heck, I’m willing to bet they were all breastfed. Saying that an affected population was mostly something that most of the population already is doesn’t mean that there’s a causal relationship there. It’s an enormous source of bias. That’s why they thought that coffee caused cancer back in the 80s, because most smokers drink coffee.

Ren: “Like cats on a laser pointer or something.”

Meow.

Check out the clueless Mayo Clinic with no explanation for why African Americans respond with twice as many antibodies as other groups to rubella vaccination. It’s the gut flora, stupid!

Despite the visit from “Stu,” this actually wins the Dumbest Thing I’ve Heard All Day award. Once again, you obviously didn’t even read your own source (PDF).

Flora like bifidobacteria regulate immune response in Peyer’s patches of the small intestine, affect antibody production and promote B-cell maturation.

Only for things they see first, nitwit. Do you know anything about what happens upon vaccination? If you had read your source, you’d know that these people weren’t tested immediately after vaccination. What the hell do you think “promot[ing] B-cell maturation” has to do with price of in China? Do you think after spotting RA 27/3 for the first time, everybody rushes to the mesenteric lymph for a germinal-center party?

CDC’s William Thompson admitted data suggested African American males are at greater risk of autism by MMR.

But there’s no credible evidence that that is true.

The reason is their immune systems react differently based on flora balance.

No, you are engaging in circular free association.

So anti-vaxxers scream about all the ingredients in vaccines – which are clearly openly available to peruse – but even that’s not enough. Now they have to invent ‘secret’ ingredients too? Talk about clutching at straws.

^ “the price of tea,” of course.

Narad, you’re not only crude, but beginning to look silly. At least you’re showing some propensity for self-correction, congratulations.

They’ll be plenty of evidence, as if there isn’t already, of CDC fraud regarding vaccine injury when Congressional hearings take place. You and Orac act as if vaccine injury isn’t a reality which is cruel and irresponsible. And Orac is actually a doctor? Gorski wouldn’t respond to even one of my 50 posts wallpapering his sad blog. It’s amazing mainstream media gives him an ounce of credibility. Maybe not so amazing given media censorship of this issue of vaccine injury.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/lawrence-solomon/merck-whistleblowers_b_5881914.html

Vaccine injury is an insidious process which doesn’t necessarily take place immediately after vaccination. It takes time for the immune system reaction to damage the lining of the gut-brain where a leaky gut and leaky blood-brain barrier lead to brain inflammation.

This new study has focus on MS, but describes the process, please take a look, thanks:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0106335

Vaccine injury is very real and this page appears to a crude joke filled with fools who couldn’t give a damn.

You should thank god none of you or yours a vaccine injured. I have 2 grandsons that are.

Two questions, Kaisieh:

What specific injury or injuries do you believe your grandsons suffered as a consequence of vaccination?

How did you factually establish that those injuries were in fact caused by the vaccines they received? It is, I trust, on some basis other than a post hoc ergo procter hoc logical fallacy.

Me, Id rather take my chances with my God and trust in His creation.

That wouldn’t be the god said to have created all things, including the pathogens responsible for measles, chicken pox, mumps, pertussis, polio, yellow fever, ebola, etc.

Not to mention delightful creations like Onchocerca volvulus , the nematode responsible for causing African River Blindness ( the second leading cause of blindness due to infection in the world, estimated to infect 18 – 37 million people with up to 1-2 million people visually impaired and 270,000 people rendered completely blind?

By what wild stretch of the imagination would you view such a god–a god that appatently creates pathogenetic organisms for no purpose other than to make other organisms suffer horrendously–as being on your side?

From the mind of the great philosopher, Monty Python –

All things dull and ugly,
All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.
Each little snake that poisons,
Each little wasp that stings,
He made their brutish venom.
He made their horrid wings.

All things sick and cancerous,
All evil great and small,
All things foul and dangerous,
The Lord God made them all.

Each nasty little hornet,
Each beastly little squid–
Who made the spikey urchin?
Who made the sharks? He did!

All things scabbed and ulcerous,
All pox both great and small,
Putrid, foul and gangrenous,
The Lord God made them all.

Amen

Dammit, I seem to have recently lost the ability to spell “blockquote”. The paragraph beginning, “And Orac is actually a doctor? ” should be blockquoted in the comment above, once it appears – it was sent into moderation, presumably because I quoted the G word.

@Politicalguineapig,

What is this costume and where can I get it?

Here’s one variation:
http://www.yandy.com/Sexy-Scientist.php

AF: “I don’t know; I rarely see people here get a hard time just for mentioning or admitting that they believe in a deity (as opposed to some other places where just the phrase “Thank God” is enough to trigger self-righteous sneers about “imaginary friends”, etc.)”

I personally got sick of my step-mother always telling me to thank a god because my son was released from the hospital, or to pray when he ended back in the hospital and never ever giving one thought to the huge number of medical personnel, the 911 operators, firefighters, EMTs, etc and even myself for getting him to all of the multiple appointments and therapy sessions he had in his first five years.

The worst was when she sent me some religious screeds that could be summed up as “let go, let god.” I tossed them away after reading one story about a woman who fell and just decided to pray. All I could think was “use the brains your deity gave you and call 911!”

It is probably a “good” thing she passed away before our latest round of 911 calls, ambulance trips, hospital stays and eventual open heart surgery.

Though when we decided to attend services at friends Lutheran church instead going to the base chapel, it upset a friend of hers that we took communion there. I shared my step-mother’s shock when that friend said we would be going to hell because we had not been confirmed in that church. Apparently the Missouri Synod Lutheran god is different from the Congregationalist god, or the one that presided over the US Army Chapel Protestant services (where communion is given both ways, in the pews and at the pulpit!).

End of rant. Sorry, I got up on the wrong side of the universe today.

^ “rebuttal for”

“Gorski wouldn’t respond to even one of my 50 posts wallpapering his sad blog. It’s amazing mainstream media gives him an ounce of credibility. Maybe not so amazing given media censorship of this issue of vaccine injury.”

Pro-tip – when complaining about censorship, try to put more space between that claim and a boast that you’ve been allowed to post 50 some comments on a pro-healthy-children blog. Otherwise the contradiction is just too obvious, you know.

Two loose ends:

Vaccine injury is an insidious process which doesn’t necessarily take place immediately after vaccination.

If that’s a response to my observation that “these people weren’t tested immediately after vaccination,” you completely failed to understand that it was a response to your invocation of B-cell maturation, which has nothing discernible to do with circulating rubella antibodies long after immunization.

Gorski wouldn’t respond to even one of my 50 posts wallpapering his sad blog.

Could you point me to the other 47? I’m having a hell of a time finding them.

They’ll be plenty of evidence, as if there isn’t already, of CDC fraud regarding vaccine injury when Congressional hearings take place.

So in the absence of currentevidence, Kevin is appealing to evidence that he believes will emerge in the future? I don’t know, this faith-based approach to argumentation does not work for me.

And Orac is actually a doctor?

There is always the option of going to the appropriate professional and legal bodies to accuse him of practicing surgery without a qualification.

media censorship of this issue of vaccine injury.</i<

Vaccine injury is an insidious process which doesn’t necessarily take place immediately after vaccination.

Indeed, as we learned from Gardasil accusations, sometimes it takes the form of death by drowning or by car-crash.

Narad, thanks for your insights. Like you and most neurologists, Saunders is all brain and no guts.

Brain inflammation can be caused from both sides of the BBB, particularly of gut origin. And when I talk about vaccine injuries it includes epilepsy which i believe is of gut origin in a huge percentage of cases, perhaps the majority. No wonder you’re having such difficulty finding my posts on previous Gorski blogs. Makes me wonder what else you’re having a hard time researching.

There isn’t one study about how any of the childhood vaccines affect flora balance. Nor is there even one study about how flora affects vaccine response leading to vaccine injury, a matter of microbial predisposition. Why not? Vaccine scientists fear the results to protect their pocketbooks in disregard of collateral damage that is vaccine injury. And then to mock the very serious, heartbreaking subject of vaccine injury as Gorski does is inhumane and irresponsible.

Earlier this year this story made headlines:
Multiple sclerosis ‘linked to food bug’
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-25925658
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/267676.php
http://weill.cornell.edu/news/pr/2013/10/toxin-emitting-bacteria-being-evaluated-as-a-potential-multiple-sclerosis-trigger.html

Quote :
“We provide evidence that supports epsilon toxin’s ability to cause BBB permeability and show that epsilon toxin kills the brain’s myelin producing cells, oligodendrocytes; the same cells that die in MS lesions,” says Jennifer Linden of Weill Cornell Medical College, who presented the research. “We also show that epsilon toxin targets other cells types associated with MS inflammation such as the retinal vascular and meningeal cells. Epsilon toxin may be responsible for triggering MS.”
It’s a continuation of research about clostridium bacteria toxins of gut origin as cause of MS including brain lesions. Here’s the full recent study:
Isolation of Clostridium perfringens Type B in an Individual at First Clinical Presentation of Multiple Sclerosis Provides Clues for Environmental Triggers of the Disease
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0076359

These same clostridium toxins are also a known cause of seizure:
Clostridium perfringens epsilon toxin causes excessive release of glutamate in the mouse hippocampus.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10913875

Regarding autism, up to half in the worst cases also suffer epilepsy. Thanks, Narad, for inspiring my research into what’s known about autism and and brain lesions/demyelination. This 2008 study revealed demyelination in 62.5% of autistic children:
Serum anti-myelin-associated glycoprotein antibodies in Egyptian autistic children.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19073846

Did you somehow miss that study?

Doctor’s Data v. Barrett.

Tobinick v. Novella.

^ The cognoscenti will recognize one glaring error in the foregoing, but it’s not crucial.

epilepsy which i believe is of gut origin in a huge percentage of cases, perhaps the majority

I know of some common varieties of epilepsy that are of genetic origin (linked to unusual forms of particular proteins). Others result from viral infection or head injury. Would you care to specify which varieties originate in the gut?

Narad is apparently having hard time dealing with the fact that gut imbalances lead to brain inflammation, instead using the fear-based approach of denigrating the messenger. Can you say old school? All brain and no guts, I love that expression. Treating epilepsy and autism from the neck up as a way of life is Narad’s practice. Not surprising as that’s the way the world works these days, but it’s changing rapidly as people begin to understand the importance of the gut-brain. Has Saunders written even one sentence about it?

That MS is now seen as originating in the gut is just an example of how a vaccine may cause brain damage beginning in the gut. Other neurodegenerative/autoimmune diseases such as Parkinson’s are also now viewed as of intestinal origin.

Yet there’s no vaccine science about how vaccines affect the gut. Not a page, while vaccine scientists are busy harnessing probiotic adjuvants because they know vaccine response relies on flora. What’s unknown is how vaccines affect the flora present which then affect the immune system. And vaccine scientists don’t yet acknowledge the fact that people have different flora balances. The bumbling Dr. Gregory Poland thinks all humans are alike and wonders why they respond differently to vaccines. But he’s only looking at the hardware (genes) and avoiding the software (microbes).

Krebiozen, I’m appreciating your calm approach as opposed to dealing with Narad’s childish view that the gut doesn’t affect the brain. Actually, I’ll accept being labeled “shitwit” as a complement as we should be testing meconium and infant stool routinely in order to assess risk of vaccine injury. Narad, have you heard of PCR stool testing? I suggest you send one of your meat-based samples to GDX as you’re likely imbalanced, high in sulfur-reducing bacteria resulting in neurotoxic levels of propionic acid. Or, you may have very high levels of yeast from consuming all that fluffy cotton candy. What’s certain is you’re low in Actinobacteria resulting in a faulty immune system, unable to withstand vaccination without injury, leave alone have a decent immune response. Can you say vaccine failure?

Krebby, you ask a great, albeit incomplete question: “Why would a measles vaccine, for example, affect gut flora in a qualitatively different way to a wild measles infection? Why would we expect an attenuated measles virus injected IM to affect gut flora at all?”

Did you know vaccination is also blamed for causing diabetes and MS? These are matters of flora shifting, both diseases ameliorated via dietary measures. The infant microbiome develops over time. Exactly how and in what order is studied and this information appears crucial to understanding vaccine reaction and response. MMR might not cause autism in some infants if given later in life when flora is more developed. We have the nerve to inject HepB into newborns within 12 hours of birth when they haven’t even breastfed, so they’re low in bifidobacteria which are known to affect vaccine response:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25002669

Your question, Kreb, is reminiscent of the argument that breast milk contains more aluminum than a vaccine in disregard of the fact that injection and ingestion are two different things. Vaccines may affect gut flora balance, it’s not been studied, but what may be more important to vaccine injury is what bugs are present at time of injection, also never studied.

Please find me a lab willing to receive crowdfunding because Pharma will never approach the subject. If they’re lucky, probiotic adjuvants will also lower risk of vaccine injury, a huge bonus when all they were really trying to do is improve vaccine efficacy. They don’t care about injury, instead toeing the false party line that vaccines don’t cause autism. Just as bad is the fallacy without evidence echoed in paper after paper that the fetal gastrointestinal tract is sterile, condoning vaccination within 12 hours of birth per cruel CDC schedule. Vaccines can and do cause autism:

squirrelite,
Sadly, the benefits seen didn’t last in this study. This reminds me of the idea that renal dialysis was an effective treatment for schizophrenia; positive early results that failed to be replicated. It’s odd how often that happens.

Tim, that story is not an anecdote (not an “anecdotal”, please take some lessons in Basic English Comprehension and Grammar), but a joke.

WORSEN

Earlier this year this story made headlines:

Ah, Research by Press Release. More accurately, “headlines were made for this story”.

Keith seems to have no shortage of bright ideas of what’s caused by “imbalanced” intestinal flora:

But it’s not limited to seizure as I also make the case for gut origin of now mysterious glaucoma, diabetic retinopathy, optic neuritis, optic neuropathy, macular degeneration . . .

Narad, you’re invited for dinner. We can talk all about the gut-connection. Know anything about photosensitive seizure? And since it appears you weren’t breastfed, we’ll have something with plenty of GOS to feed your reduced or absent bifidobacteria. GOS is a prebiotic, btw.

herr doktor, so you think you know what causes diabetes? How may I invest in your next project? Why do you think diabetes is rapidly halted with gastric bypass surgery? Might it have something to do with an infected duodenum?

*gut-eye connection

@Keith: Try again. Gastric bypass surgery helps only those with Type II diabetes, and studies have shown it is probably due to the weight loss. It does nothing for Type I diabetes (although the weight loss may help decrease the amount of insulin needed, those persons *still* need insulin.) Nothing about the gut. (having undergone the procedure myself, I can readily vouch that the only effect to the gut is the ….uh…frequency of elimination while on a clear liquid diet for 7 days. The happiest day of my life was when my doctor told me I could start full liquids!

Narad, you’re invited for dinner. We can talk all about the gut-connection.

Perhaps you could go all Iron Chef and have meconium as the theme ingredient.

Narad, you do know meconium isn’t sterile, right?
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0090784

My work is done on this heinous blog entry. Take care all, cya ’round town.

Narad, you do know meconium isn’t sterile, right?

Sadly, you don’t realize that you’re slow on the uptake. Maybe if you scrunch up your face real hard-like, you’ll get it.

How may I invest in your next project?

Thanks, but I’ve already published about diabetic retinopathy. If you want to shift the goalposts from DR being “mysterious” to diabetes being mysterious, I can put you in touch with an endocrinologist.

when I talk about vaccine injuries it includes epilepsy

Yes, this accounts for the complete absence of epilepsy from the pre-vaccination medical record.

Narad, your research skills are breathtaking. Did you bother to click on blog I was commenting on? That’s where you’ll find 50 comments. So far, I’ve participated on three (3) Gorski blogs without a single response from Lord Gorski who just sits there watching his pawns get pummeled. There’s nothing “respectful” about him. Narad, you look sillier by the moment, though I’m certain you have something good to offer.

herr doktor, I suggest you research microbial cause of diabetes; there’s plenty to find. Here’s a start:
http://news.ku.dk/all_news/2012/2012.9/gut-bacteria-could-cause-diabetes/

I have a blog. I did not realize that somewhere in the fine print it was mandated that I have to answer everyone who posts comments there.

(Is Keith, aka “Mr Panties-in-a-wad” for real?)

Since my oldest had a massive seizure from actually getting an illness before its vaccine was available, I am always asking which vaccine causes more seizures than the diseases. I never get an answer.

By the way, yesterday I got a pure crazy town response on the Violent Metaphors blog (which for some reason WordPress does not like me linking to) that I must share:

God hates vaccines.

We are told seven times in Genesis that creation was made “after its kind.” The word “kind” could be translated DNA, as kind refers to species. This is the mark of God on His creation. When profligate man intentionally destroys that mark and substitutes his own mark, that is the epitome of evil. Vaccines, containing DNA of monkeys, dogs, bacteria, and other creatures including mankind (aborted human fetal cells are components of several vaccines), are abominable for three specific reasons.

First, they obscure the DNA of mankind. There are natural barriers to prevent the crossing of the species. That is why diseases don’t usually cross over to man from animals unless they have been manipulated in a lab. The fallen angels (demons) mated with human women and bred the Nephilim in an attempt to purposely destroy mankind in order that the Messiah could not be born into the human race. Thus, the Flood came to save man and the Messianic bloodline by wiping out the corrupted DNA; are we not told that Noah was “perfect in his GENErations”?

Second, vaccines are injected into the blood. “The life is in the blood.” Yes, they are intramuscular but that goes directly into the blood. Dr. Tim O’Shea documents that when the administration of vaccines was switched to hypodermics as compared to simple lancets that merely scraped the skin, the rate of vaccine death skyrocketed. We are commanded not to eat or drink the blood, which is a rebellious practice by those who do not obey God. If eating of blood is forbidden, how much moreso is injecting it into the very life of mankind?

Third, we are created with a most marvelous immune system that is intended to protect us against disease. Vaccines defy that divine system. Think of a rattlesnake: if one is bitten, one may die, but if one were to drink the venom, death would not be likely. This is similar to what happens when a vaccine is injected into the body versus a natural immune response to pathogens.

Vaccines, in violation of these eternal commands and divine design, are therefore damned.

The “power” of vaccines is in “accord with the activity of Satan” and a “false wonder.” No true immunity is conferred. Immunization via vaccines is a lie. A lie is deception. Deception is not for God’s people. He desires and commands us to know the truth. However, as God Himself is a warrior who fights for His people when they obey but fights against them when they disobey (the entirety of the Old Testament documents this), He uses deception as a strategy of warfare. This is a hard truth, but if we embrace what God has forbidden, we are damned:

“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

So here’s one for you Chris. I don’t believe your copy and pasted garbage from the big Pharma, for they are not of God and I am all for God, so I have wisdom. There has been no decline of disease anywhere, kids are still getting measles and all the other diseases, even ones who had the vaccines. Vaccines, as I said, change the DNA and that is not of God because he created US and our DNA. People need to actually use their own brains instead of allowing “man” to program. I swear you all have chips in your brains being programmed on a daily basis. You are believing all that you are told and yet simply put, that’s still not evidence. Evidence is seeing it with your own eyes, such as I have with the children who were vaccinated, who either died or were maimed or just sickly beings their entire lives. Proof is in the pudding, as they say, not lies from the Big Pharma. I actually feel sorry for people who are so brain washed they don’t even know how to use their brains anymore. So, say what you want, call me names, tell me I am stupid but the question here is, how much do you really think you know when you really know nothing at all. No proof, just copied and paste words from liars. Wow, I should be dead I guess, since the only vaccines I had in my life were just a couple, when I was a young tot with no voice or the ability to say NO, and I don’t take drugs, never had a flu shot, no pneumonia shot, nothing, and I don’t get sick…go figure! lol

Chris:

This whackaloon claims that diseases don’t jump from animals to man unless “manipulated in a laboratory.” Then how does he explain why so many species can catch rabies? Or the flu?

Heaven help him.

Oh. My. God. Narad, I know your head isn’t made of wood. Now read this slowly. Here’s the link you provided to a Facebook conversation. Great work, btw, finding it, I’m very proud of you.
https://www.facebook.com/ScienceBasedMed/posts/544671105659769?comment_id=547368668723346&offset=0&total_comments=9

Now if you click on the Gorski blog linked at the very beginning of the Facebook post, you’ll find the 50 comments. Have a field day!

I should probably explain how to click on something. Basically, you just push down on top your mouse with your cursor on top of the object you wish to see. I trust you’ll figure that part out, but if not we’ll have some clicking lessons at dinner. Again, I’m very proud of you.

Seriously – I’d say he’s a bad penny, but that’s even too cliche for me.

Keith Bell,
I just noticed your previously moderated comment.

That MS is now seen as originating in the gut is just an example of how a vaccine may cause brain damage beginning in the gut. Other neurodegenerative/autoimmune diseases such as Parkinson’s are also now viewed as of intestinal origin.

How is the study you cited in any way an example of a vaccine causing “brain damage beginning in the gut”? The researchers induced an autoimmune disease in mice by injecting them with spinal cord homogenate, purified myelin, myelin proteins or peptides of these proteins. This was designed to stimulate antibodies against myelin. How would any childhood vaccine do this?

Yet there’s no vaccine science about how vaccines affect the gut. Not a page,

You must have missed Narad’s link to a number of studies looking at this at #128.

What’s certain is you’re low in Actinobacteria resulting in a faulty immune system, unable to withstand vaccination without injury, leave alone have a decent immune response. Can you say vaccine failure?

I assume you are referring to this study which found an association between Actinobacteria and a positive immune response to oral vaccines. We don’t know if the association is the result of the bacteria of the bacteria are the result of a more robust immune system e.g. competing bacteria are better kept under control.

Krebby, you ask a great, albeit incomplete question: “Why would a measles vaccine, for example, affect gut flora in a qualitatively different way to a wild measles infection? Why would we expect an attenuated measles virus injected IM to affect gut flora at all?”

No answers to that incomplete question?

Did you know vaccination is also blamed for causing diabetes and MS?
Not by any reputable researchers, it isn’t. A number of studies have found no links with either.

These are matters of flora shifting, both diseases ameliorated via dietary measures. The infant microbiome develops over time. Exactly how and in what order is studied and this information appears crucial to understanding vaccine reaction and response.

Maybe. The evidence for diet ameliorating either type 2 diabetes (except through weight loss, of course) or MS is poor.

MMR might not cause autism in some infants if given later in life when flora is more developed.

MMR doesn’t cause autism, period. That at least is clear.

We have the nerve to inject HepB into newborns within 12 hours of birth when they haven’t even breastfed, so they’re low in bifidobacteria which are known to affect vaccine response:

The study you linked to is about oral vaccines, not injected vaccines like the hepatitis B vaccines. As I noted above, the association between bifidobacteria and oral vaccine response may be because a robust immune system results in healthy gut flora, rather than vice versa. We don’t know,

Your question, Kreb, is reminiscent of the argument that breast milk contains more aluminum than a vaccine in disregard of the fact that injection and ingestion are two different things.

You still don’t seem to have grasped the fact that aluminum adjuvants are poorly soluble. They remain in the muscle at the injection site slowly dissolving in the interstitial fluids, and are released into the bloodstream in very similar daily quantities to aluminum absorbed from the gut, over a period of weeks.

Vaccines may affect gut flora balance, it’s not been studied, but what may be more important to vaccine injury is what bugs are present at time of injection, also never studied.

Maybe they do, though I struggle to see how. You seem to have seized upon an idea with practically no evidence to support it and have run off with it and disappeared over the horizon (or down a rabbit-hole should you prefer that metaphor).

Just as bad is the fallacy without evidence echoed in paper after paper that the fetal gastrointestinal tract is sterile, condoning vaccination within 12 hours of birth per cruel CDC schedule.

Firstly, we thought the fetal gastrointestinal tract was sterile until quite recently, now we know it isn’t. Secondly, why would the fetal gastrointestinal tract not being sterile contraindicate hepatitis B vaccination at birth? I think eliminating hepatitis B is a fantastic goal, and the hepatitis B vaccine, that is made from proteins produced by genetically engineered baker’s yeast, as an amazing piece of technology that will save countless lives and inestimable human misery. The best evidence suggests it is incredibly safe.

Vaccines can and do cause autism:

No they don’t. Study after study has produced results that are consistent with them having nothing to do with autism, apart from preventing those cases due to CRS.

bad penny

I dated her in college. She was a nice young lady.

G-ddammit, I did it again, despite trying not to. Comment in moderation.

G-ddammit, I did it again, despite trying not to.

It’s annoying, but also kind of funny that our host’s name is treated as a profanity here. Or maybe that’s just me.

I see that it had another discharge that was in moderation.

Krebiozen, I’m appreciating your calm approach as opposed to dealing with Narad’s childish view that the gut doesn’t affect the brain. Actually, I’ll accept being labeled “shіtwit” as a complement [sic] as we should be testing meconium and infant stool routinely in order to assess risk of vaccine injury.

Shall we recall the original context, Keith? You were moaning as so:

And then to mock the very serious, heartbreaking subject of vaccine injury as [Orac] does is inhumane and irresponsible.

Now, I’m perfectly willing to stand behind the characterization. You, on the other hand, seem to wish to divorce it from the reason for its coming about in the first place.

It’s an awful like your cowardice when called out on, oh, I dunno, your assertion that circulating rubella antibodies are controlled by gut flora. Remember that one?

Blockquote>“However, to date, no comprehensive studies have been undertaken to examine the gastrointestinal microbiota in relation to vaccine administration and if there is a discernible alteration in the community following vaccine administration.”
I read down as far as the negative conclusion:
Immunization with either a single dose or four-dose vaccination schedule of Ty21a did not appear to disrupt the composition, diversity or stability of the bacterial community

epilepsy has a genetic component, i.e., Dravet Syndrome, where vaccine scientists blame genes when vaccination initiates the disorder in disregard of microbes regulating genes. Microbes turn genes on and off like light switches

Would you care to specify which genes are being turned on or off in the case of Dravet Syndrome? IIRC, it’s an autosomal-dominant condition… each nerve cell is expressing two copies of the gene for a particular ion-channel protein, a normal version and a damaged version, and the damaged copies of the protein are enough to screw up brain function.
In your scenario — where vaccination alters the gut bacteria so that they reach up to the brain and switch genes on and off in every cell simultaneously — are they somehow turning off the normal gene while leaving the damaged gene alone? Or are they turning on the damaged version, which previously had not been producing damaged proteins?

Would you care to specify which infant vaccine is responsible for this?

Good point Narad re: PMID 22828641. This new paper may shed some light:
” Finally, TLR5-mediated sensing of the microbiota also impacted antibody responses to the inactivated polio vaccine, but not to adjuvanted vaccines or the live-attenuated yellow fever vaccine.”
http://www.cell.com/immunity/abstract/S1074-7613(14)00303-3

bimler, I don’t have the answers and need to learn more about it.

I don’t have the answers and need to learn more about it.

Fair enough. I urge you to consider the possibility that no further answers are required, i.e. that the molecular genetic account of Dravet syndrome is sufficient.
Bear in mind that penetrance is high… if you are born with a damaged version of that particular gene, you are very likely to develop the symptoms; so if vaccine-induced changes in gut flora are a necessary step along the way, those changes must happen in every case. Occam’s Razor invites the question, why invoke two explanations when one is sufficient?

Bear in mind as well that Dravet syndrome shows up in the first year of infancy; and that in France in the 1970s, Dravet’s case studies of a particular form of childhood convulsion would only have received DTP and (I think) oral polio vaccine.

bimler, let’s also consider that Dravet accounts for only 2.5% of all vaccination-related seizures.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065758

bimler, let’s also consider that Dravet accounts for only 2.5% of all vaccination-related seizures.

“Vaccination-related seizures”? For someone who does not know all the answers, you seem to have made up your mind.
I raised Dravet syndrome because you singled it out in comment #148 as a prototypical effect of vaccination, suggesting that you had some evidence.

Did you not read the abstract or the paper? You skip over so many things, Narad, we should call you “Skippy.”

Here’s the link again, an example of how vaccine response changes based on microbiota and type of vaccine :
http://www.cell.com/immunity/abstract/S1074-7613(14)00303-3
” Finally, TLR5-mediated sensing of the microbiota also impacted antibody responses to the inactivated polio vaccine, but not to adjuvanted vaccines or the live-attenuated yellow fever vaccine. These results reveal an unappreciated role for gut microbiota in promoting immunity to vaccination.”

Did you know even one thing about this subject before October 2 when I chimed-in? I sincerely doubt it based on your responses. Sending you an invoice. You should be thankful. Try to add something for a change.

The first author’s track record of egregious research incompetence is not such as to encourage discussion.

Hey, it could be fun. Let’s revisit Keith’s assertion:

Would you like to talk about the baboon virus and several bacterial pathogens found in Paul Offit’s rotavirus vaccine in this new paper?

Take it away, Laura:

“Additionally, a baboon endogenous virus strain M7 was detected, likely due to the monkey cell line in which RotaTeq was produced from.”

Um, “due to”? This cell line was established in 1964 (PDF).

Oh, wait:

“A sample of the RotaTeq vaccine that had been previously shown to contain PCV DNA was included for analysis but the PCV-contaminated Rotarix vaccine was not available for analysis. The sample of RotaTeq vaccine tested positive for rotavirus A and baboon endogenous virus, as previously reported by Victoria and colleagues [17]. The origin of the baboon endogenous virus is assumed to be related to the African green monkey-derived Vero cell line used in its manufacture and cross-hybridization of its endogenous retroviruses to the baboon endogenous retrovirus probes [17].”

This is plagiarism, BTW, Laura, except that you omitted one word and changed another: “The origin of the baboon endogenous retrovirus signal.”

I get the strong sense that cross-hybridization represents what’s known as a “false positive” here, Laura. Please drop Keith a line.

Oh, yes, you’re back to genetic switches discussed two days ago. Have you ever researched host gene-microbe interaction? You can probably understand this paper better than I, give it a shot:
http://www.cell.com/trends/microbiology/fulltext/S0966-842X(10)00126-5

Who’s running the show, Skippy? Not you.

@Krebiozen,

in safety studies the detergent used in the Roundup mixture was more toxic than the glyphosate itself

I’d think the detergent and glyphosate need to be looked at how they may act combined together.

Celiac, gliadin, gluten, FuckUp(tm)
http://sustainablepulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Glyphosate_II_Samsel-Seneff.pdf

==================
@Narad

I found a nice(??) beer. Terrible rating. Nice price. I like it. I guess I didn’t need to be ‘pickled’ all these years. This stuff seems to not kick one into that CNS depressant stage but rather lets one stay sort of ‘elevated’.

Goose Island 312 Urban Wheat 4.2%
http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/1146/17141/

^^ not exactly ‘hoppy’ but there is a certain something.

Another *wheat beer* though. It’s probably got Roundup.

I was using the new TLR5 study demonstrating how some vaccines may not be microbiota-dependent, thus may not shift flora as apparently with rotavirus vaccine.

Similarly, recall your gripe about my mention of microbiota and B-cell maturation, there are some viruses where antibodies are not required for immunity, just B-cells.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120301143426.htm

Keith,

Would you like to talk about the baboon virus and several bacterial pathogens found in Paul Offit’s rotavirus vaccine in this new paper?

They didn’t find any viruses or bacterial pathogens in the vaccine. They found some DNA fragments, but no intact viruses, and no bacterial DNA at all except in ileal biopsy samples, which isn’t surprising. As the study itself states:

Overall, no correlation between specific pathogens and vaccination status was identified from this study, nor was a correlation identified between pathogens and vaccination of rotavirus vaccines. PCV was not detected in any ileal samples either by microarray or PCR analyses.

I don’t see what the concern is.
This study also looked at rotavirus vaccines and concluded:

The detection of SRV DNA (or other retroviral sequences) in live-attenuated vaccines, therefore, simply reflects their generation in cells, which contain a large genome load of endogenous retroviruses, rather than the presence of adventitious viruses of concern.

As for the “baboon virus”, SRV:

A prior study showed two cases of SRV seroconversion in people with extensive blood and saliva contacts with nonhuman primates presumably following infection with replication-competent SRV. Neither clinical symptoms nor ongoing viremia was observed in these seropositive individuals.

So even when people are exposed to live SRV (which is not found in rotavirus vaccines) by non-human primates, it doesn’t appear to cause any symptoms, or an ongoing infection. Why are you concerned about this?

Fair enough, Krebiozen.

As for the gut bacteria, there appears to be no research at all on glyphosate’s effect on them.

^^ Quite. *no research at all* seems to apply to lots of safe/bad , bad/safe things in the liturature that sets policy these past many decades. I *feel* it is awfully selective and lends itself to political pronouncements of such fantastic gravitas as to be, umm, discounted. Unless it’s by law enforcement, FDA, DEA, …, CDC, …, The Jimmy Carter Institute of Good Tasting Filaribits and Pet Guinea Worm Grooming.

Here’s a glyphosate gut microbiota study on chickens which would apply to most people here, especially the blog author sitting in his coop.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00284-012-0277-2

You broke the code, Mom. There are no studies about gut microbiota and vaccine injury, so I’m doing the best I can with what’s available to inspire such studies. I’ll coming over to your blog soon so we talk about it in more detail. That way you can laugh and yawn all you want about vaccine injury.

Instead of laughing-off the real problem of vaccine injury, why not try to do something about it without fear of losing your precious dollars or causing a health crisis?

And I’m not really nasty, just creative like Narad who probably is really nasty having never been breastfed (not his fault). Btw, Mom, do you think breastfeeding helps guard against vaccine injury? I’d bet it does . . . got bifidobacteria™?

Speaking of milk, here’s a gut microbiota cattle study about glyphosate shifting flora toward clostridium overgrowth (botulism). Clostridium overgrowth is also known in autism. Indeed, clostridium toxins are also implicated in MS including brain inflammation per the new study discussed earlier. Did you know brain inflammation leads to seizure?
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1075996413000188

You broke the code, Mom. There are no studies about gut microbiota and vaccine injury, so I’m doing the best I can with what’s available to inspire such studies. I’ll coming over to your blog soon so we talk about it in more detail. That way you can laugh and yawn all you want about vaccine injury.

There first should be biological plausibility which you have yet to demonstrate. Research monies are precious and just because your dim bulb went off, doesn’t mean it’s a viable research avenue. I prefer to focus on real vaccine injuries and spare my sympathy for those who have suffered, not on a bunch of crackpot mums who can’t accept that they don’t have perfect children and spend their time wailing and gnashing their teeth over non-existent vaccine injuries and the vast sums of compensation they think they are entitled to.

Instead of laughing-off the real problem of vaccine injury, why not try to do something about it without fear of losing your precious dollars or causing a health crisis?

I’m sorry, I’ve seen to have missed the part where any of us are making money let alone losing money by refuting crank hypotheses and anti-vaxx dogma.

And I’m not really nasty, just creative like Narad who probably is really nasty having never been breastfed (not his fault). Btw, Mom, do you think breastfeeding helps guard against vaccine injury? I’d bet it does . . . got bifidobacteria™?

Your breast obsession is noted and that was a nasty comment, don’t be shocked when you are treated in kind. No, breastfeeding doesn’t guard against any “vaccine injury”.

“chronically ill humans showed significantly higher glyphosate residues in urine than healthy population.”
http://omicsonline.org/open-access/detection-of-glyphosate-residues-in-animals-and-humans-2161-0525.1000210.php?aid=23853

“The number of clostridial species found in the stools of children with autism was greater than in the stools of control children. Children with autism had 9 species of Clostridium not found in controls, whereas controls yielded only 3 species not found in children with autism.”
http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/35/Supplement_1/S6.long

“The finding that yeast levels were similar in both the autistic and control group is interesting, as there has been a great deal of speculation that yeast infections are a major problem in autism. Our data indicates that yeast is present at normal levels in the stool of this group of children with autism. A study by Horvath and Perman [21] reported that 43% of children with autism undergoing endoscopies had a positive fungal culture for yeast in their duodenal juice, vs. 23% of age-matched controls with other gastrointestinal problems requiring endoscopies. Since their study involved children with severe enough symptoms to warrant endoscopies, the greater symptom severity may explain some of the difference with our study. Since the survey by the Autism Research Institute of over 25,000 parents’ reports that parents find antifungals to be one of the most effective medications for improving behavior [44], our findings are puzzling. It is possible that children with autism are more sensitive to even a normal level of yeast. Also, it is possible that antifungals have other effects, such as reducing inflammation.”
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-230X/11/22

Protozoans are also found high in autism. Taxonomy unavailable for most. Protozoans consume bacteria. Citation please.

Thanks for asking, Mom! And thanks for inspiring me to find this article about breastfeeding and vaccine response, certainly a matter of flora balance:
http://evolutionaryparenting.com/breastfeeding-and-vaccines/

Mom, you’re beginning to seem like a flake here when you say:
“I’m sorry, I’ve seen to have missed the part where any of us are making money . . . ”

Believe me, I don’t like thinking you’re actually a flake. But I do appreciate you asking about biological plausibility, so I’m reposting my article:
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/vaccine-injury-biological-plausibility-microbial-predisposition

Sorry to learn about your child having whooping cough, Kreb. Are you in California by chance? DTaP failure is well known while autism is listed on the package insert as adverse effect. I’m assuming your child is vaccinated. I’d suggest things like zinc, vitamin C and D3 to help boost immunity. Probiotic therapy may also be in order. I’m sure you’re an excellent parent.

The reason I’m highlighting potential flora shift by childhood vaccination is because there are no comprehensive studies.

And to reiterate, what may be more important is flora present at time of vaccination, different for all infants based on ancestral dietary habits and health of the mother. You don’t actually believe all newborns have the same flora balance, do you?

You state “Perhaps the health of a person’s microbiota can affect their immune response” and that’s where the Mayo Clinic hasn’t gone yet regarding injury. That’s the vaccine injury connection, not simply a matter of shifting flora.

If you don’t believe the title of this blog doesn’t mock vaccine injury, then try reading it again. My gloves are off here because of it.

Mr. Bell: “DTaP failure is well known while autism is listed on the package insert as adverse effect.”

No it isn’t.

Those are lawyer written bits that cover everything that has been reported, but not confirmed. Plus it was only one DTaP, Tripedia, that had that on the vaccine insert. Tripedia was disontinued in 2011.

You are going to have to use more up to date anti-vaccine tropes.

Also, exactly which vaccine on the present American pediatric scheduled causes more seizures than the disease? Provide verifiable documentation for your answer and not a dubious website.

Oh, yes, you’re back to genetic switches discussed two days ago.

“Discussed”? You made two assertions and then predictably ran away from them when called out.

Have you ever researched host gene-microbe interaction? You can probably understand this paper better than I, give it a shot

Um, yes, Keith, epigenetics isn’t exactly a new topic here. It also doesn’t help one whit with your claim that a gluten-free diet magically rewrites the HLA-DQ alleles, because intestinal flora.

Keith,
My son caught whooping cough in the UK in the early 80s, and it was almost certainly the result of outbreaks that occurred because of a dramatic fall in vaccine uptake thanks to a vaccine scare that proved be groundless. An estimated 5,000 hospital admissions, 200 cases of pneumonia, 83 cases of convulsions and 38 deaths occurred thanks to antivaccine hysteria, nothing to do with vaccine failure.

If you don’t believe the title of this blog doesn’t mock vaccine injury, then try reading it again. My gloves are off here because of it.

I have every sympathy for those who suffer adverse reactions to vaccines, or whose children have developmental problems, whatever the cause. I have little time for those who claim that vaccines cause a range of disorders when several large studies have failed to find any evidence that this is true. Some of those people even make up nonsense and flatly lie to try to frighten people away from vaccines, when the public health consequences if they succeed will be disastrous, and we will have all the autism, MS and allergies that they claim are caused by vaccines as well as the consequences of a resurgence of infectious diseases. Public health menaces like this deserve mockery, in my opinion, since reasoned argument doesn’t appear to be effective.

Narad, I appreciate your relentless/artful approach and stand corrected regarding Celiac genetic testing, though there is such thing as a positive genetic test result. What I should have said is antibodies may become undetectable after gluten-free diet based on flora shift. But it’s also interesting that 40% of the general population carry the HLA gene making genetic testing for Celiac disease as first line a problem (as conducted for years by places such as University of Chicago Celiac Disease Center) leading people toward apathetic treatment, resigning their problem to genes when it’s actually a matter of gut dysbiosis. The Celiac industry is now finally changing its tune while the sugary-sweet gluten-free diet feeds the problem.
http://www.nature.com/ajg/journal/v109/n5/full/ajg201441a.html#fig2
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=672812356089350

If you don’t believe the title of this blog doesn’t mock vaccine injury, then try reading it again.
If you do believe that Dr G. has spent years blogging about holocaust denial, homeopathic quackery, and countless other forms of crap science, but named his blog specifically to mock your idee fixe, then frankly you’re delusional.

ht_tp://omicsonline.org/open-access/detection-of-glyphosate-residues-in-animals-and-humans-2161-0525.1000210.php?aid=23853

Oh joy! An Omics journal! One of the lowest-tier bottom-feeders even within the scuzzy ecosphere of pay-to-print jizzmop journals, known for their willingness to literally print anything!

“The number of clostridial species found in the stools of children with autism was greater than in the stools of control children. Children with autism had 9 species of Clostridium not found in controls, whereas controls yielded only 3 species not found in children with autism.”
ht_tp://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/35/Supplement_1/S6.long

So Finegold has changed his story again? I see that in the references he cites his 2000 study about curing autism with vancomycin. Oddly enough, he does not cite any of his intervening failures to replicate his clostridium story. Instead he cites Wakefield’s fabricated work… this does not instil much confidence.

@ Keith Bell:

You might want to read Teresa Conrick ( AoA): you have lots in common.

Thanks, Denice, I have read her essays. And thank you all for putting up with what I call “Greenpeace tactics” in order to call attention to what I believe is a gaping hole in science:
1) how childhood vaccines affect flora balance and
2) how flora affects vaccine response leading to injury

Hope I haven’t lost too much credibility, Narad. Please keep an eye out for Part 2 of my article on the subject of vaccine injury and microbial predisposition. I’m giving away a free microscope to the first commenter. No hard feelings, Liz, I had no idea your name isn’t pronounced like the word “ditz”, how fortunate for you.

Take care all, I’ll miss you. :'(

Feel free to continue laughing and yawning about vaccine injury.

I believe you can fix the gut-eye problem by focusing on diet and flora balance.

Definately. Smoking lots of pot kept it under control as well. The ‘ohh just fuck it’ moment came for me the day Bush went into Bahgdad.

what I believe is a gaping hole in science:
1) how…
2) how…

So the studies on “How X happens” should precede any evidence that “X is happening at all”? You seem to expect that the task of science is to validate your belief system.

Oh, and…

No hard feelings, Liz, I had no idea your name isn’t pronounced like the word “ditz”, how fortunate for you.

Given that Liz’s involvement in these comments has had nothing to do with your asshattery, I would like to suggest that you take this pissy little sign-off and figure out a way for it to be the last thing that pops into your head during an botched episode of autoerotic asphyxiation.

“The number of clostridial species found in the stools of children with autism was greater than in the stools of control children. Children with autism had 9 species of Clostridium not found in controls, whereas controls yielded only 3 species not found in children with autism.”
http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/35/Supplement_1/S6.long

So let me get this straight, you found a paper which:
1.) The lead author refers to autism as a disease.
2.) The case group (autism) was 13 children and the control group was 8 children not matched and only half of those had data presented for some measures.
3.) The children could not have had antibiotics for 1 month prior to the collection, many were on oral nystatin or fluconazole, 10 autistic children were given vancomycin and many were on a GF/CF diet. Because it’s not like any of these factors aren’t going to eff up gut flora or anything.
4.) Not randomised, blinded nor replicated.

I don’t know what this has anything to do with your cite on C. botulinum in herbivorous ruminants or even how it supports your crackpot hypothesis.

“The finding that yeast levels were similar in both the autistic and control group is interesting, as there has been a great deal of speculation that yeast infections are a major problem in autism. Our data indicates that yeast is present at normal levels in the stool of this group of children with autism. A study by Horvath and Perman [21] reported that 43% of children with autism undergoing endoscopies had a positive fungal culture for yeast in their duodenal juice, vs. 23% of age-matched controls with other gastrointestinal problems requiring endoscopies. Since their study involved children with severe enough symptoms to warrant endoscopies, the greater symptom severity may explain some of the difference with our study. Since the survey by the Autism Research Institute of over 25,000 parents’ reports that parents find antifungals to be one of the most effective medications for improving behavior [44], our findings are puzzling. It is possible that children with autism are more sensitive to even a normal level of yeast. Also, it is possible that antifungals have other effects, such as reducing inflammation.”
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-230X/11/22

Do you even read your own citations? Adams is a materials scientist who believes his autistic son was ‘vaccine-injured’. The study subjects in the autistic group were recruited by an anti-vaxx group and behavioural scores were parent-reported. All the labs were performed by Doctor’s Data which is not a reputable company and performs non-standardised tests. And most importantly, no yeast infections were found which is the citation you provided when I asked. Fail.

Protozoans are also found high in autism. Taxonomy unavailable for most. Protozoans consume bacteria. Citation please.

Damn straight. Citations please.

Thanks for asking, Mom! And thanks for inspiring me to find this article about breastfeeding and vaccine response, certainly a matter of flora balance:
http://evolutionaryparenting.com/breastfeeding-and-vaccines/

You’re quite a dodgy one. You asked if I thought breastfeeding was protective for vaccine injury and you provide me with a blogpost about vaccine efficacy and breastfeeding and pretend that’s what you asked me about.

Mom, you’re beginning to seem like a flake here when you say:
“I’m sorry, I’ve seen to have missed the part where any of us are making money . . . ”

Believe me, I don’t like thinking you’re actually a flake. But I do appreciate you asking about biological plausibility, so I’m reposting my article:
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/vaccine-injury-biological-plausibility-microbial-predisposition

Let’s try your own words out again ‘kay Keithy wee-bits?

Instead of laughing-off the real problem of vaccine injury, why not try to do something about it without fear of losing your precious dollars or causing a health crisis?

What money is there to lose? As for your link for biological plausibility, one to your own non peer-reviewed post is not a suitable reference. You’re just another crank who is working backwards and expecting accolades from us. You have deluded yourself into thinking you are in our peer group. You have formed a conclusion and are now grasping at anything to support it; that isn’t how it works. And in the future, if you wish to shorten my name you will address me as SM.

He didn’t comprehend that being compared to Conrick is not exactly a compliment.

DW: She is high priestess of the gut-brain cult. Plus I think dear Keithy spends too much time thinking with the “brain” in his gut.

Finally, the reason nobody pays any attention to the gut-brain hypothesis (or the gut-eye) is that only Andrew Wakefield and his brothers and sisters-in-scams have ‘discovered’ it. There simply aren’t any reputable people studying it.

Ah, no, not in the slightest.

Keith wrote:

I can’t answer your question about which vaccine causes more seizures than the disease, though I suspect all of them.

There, perhaps, is the antivaccine movement’s problem in a nutshell. How could anyone believe something so obviously untrue? The incidence of seizures after MMRV is 5.8 per 10,000 doses, as compared to up to 230 febrile seizures per 10,000 of wild measles sufferers.

The incidence of seizures after MMRV is lower than the death rate after wild measles infection. Between 1999 and 2004 the case-fatality rate averaged 3 per 1,000 reported measles cases, which is 30 per 10,000.

A child is at least 5 times more likely to die after a wild measles infection than it is to suffer a febrile seizure after MMRV, yet people like Keith think the vaccine is more dangerous than the disease. How do they get this so utterly wrong?

Narad: I don’t know what you mean. Every time I try to block quote, it ends horribly, so I’m stuck with my present kludge.
Finally, if there are any reputable scientist studying gut-brain, they have either traveled far down the woo path or are working deep underground. Neither of which speaks well for their results.

Finally, if there are any reputable scientist studying gut-brain, they have either traveled far down the woo path or are working deep underground. Neither of which speaks well for their results.

Wrong! Courchesne and Buie come to mind and both are very well-respected autism researchers. It’s a viable avenue of research and just because wankers like Wakefield have tainted the field with his measles/leaky gut asshattery, doesn’t mean that neuro-immune interactions isn’t legitimate

I don’t know what you mean. Every time I try to block quote, it ends horribly, so I’m stuck with my present kludge.

Try quotation marks.

PGP:

Fair enough. Enjoy the festivities! I think it is great that you are potentially gettting outside your comfort zone.

Also, I am not so sure intelligence is a relationship killer, could you expand on why you think that?

thanks,
skepti

skeptiquette,
Have you read Keith’s writings? For example this? He explains the rise in rickets on the UK with:

Refined carbohydrate diets, poor sanitation, vaccination and antibiotic abuse create a perfect storm for rickets, obesity, diabetes and autism via shifting flora.

My understanding is that lack of sunshine (kids don’t play outside like they used to) and fad diets low in vitamin D and calcium are to blame, as well as the increasing number of darker-skinned people in the population who don’t get enough vitamin D from the six days of sunshine we get each year 😉

Keith also believes that, ” UV-microbe interaction is the reason we’re able to make vitamin D via skin”, which is as bonkers as Robert O Young’s claim that red blood cells are made by the gut.

I think your words of wisdom may be wasted on Keith.

You should be in sunny Glasgow, then. I was just there and it was beautiful every day but one or two.

I jest, the constant rainfall in Britain being true only for the purposes of comedy, a bit like our poor dental health (OK, there’s some truth in both). The real truth is that the climate in London is pleasantly temperate, though I was hot in the sunshine today, briefly, between what the weather people here charmingly call scattered showers.

^ “responsible for“

Marshall’s theories are interesting. They remind me of someone (I forget the name) a few years ago who made a plausible case for fish oil being dangerous, due to its easy oxidation, and that the fashion for taking it would lead to an epidemic of cancer and other diseases.

Has the explicitly low–vitamin D diet* actually come into vogue?

I don’t think so, I think it’s more low-fat and/or dairy-free diets that may be partly to blame, according to one newspaper article I read about it, or “junk food” according to another. Lack of sunshine may also be a factor, since parents keep their kids indoors more than they did a few decades ago, partly from fear of pedophiles and skin cancer, and kids are happier to do so, partly because of video games and social networking, or so the story goes.

It would be interesting to see how many rickets cases are seen in white children, as opposed to those with darker skin who obviously get less vitamin D from sunlight. South Asian children’s diet often includes chapati flour which contains phytates that bind calcium, which may be another factor.

*Sigh* When will they bother to *study*? The problem with vaccines isn’t the vaccines themselves so much as giving them *too early*. Any veterinarian will tell you not to vaccinate your kitten or puppy before the age of 3 months because it could weaken the little creature’s immune system. Now humans live at least 5 times as long as cats and puppies, so we should wait at least the same length of time before vaccinating human cubs. In fact, antibodies in the mother’s milk will protect babies until the age of 6 months, at which point the child’s immune system should be robust enough to take the strain of vaccination. It’s also a good idea to give the vaccines separately, and preferably a month apart, to give the immune system time to adjust. That’s all it takes to make the process safe. Autism, it turns out, is a hereditary weakness of nerve-structure, such that neuroconnectivity is weakened and signals are dissipated, and it shows up among populations that have never vaccinated. Too-early vaccination has been linked to allergy problems and even SIDS, but not autism, thank you. Too-early vaccination was, frankly, the doing of lazy hospital staffs and doctors for their own convenience; if that practice had been nipped in the bud, all this anti-vaccination panic would never have started in the first place. This whole case is a fine illustration of why the medical biz has to rigorously police itself constantly, lest the ignorami take over.

Any veterinarian will tell you not to vaccinate your kitten or puppy before the age of 3 months because it could weaken the little creature’s immune system.

I would probe the “explanation” if only that which it is supposed to support weren’t, you know, trivially a complete crock.

*Sigh* When will they bother to *study*? The problem with vaccines isn’t the vaccines themselves so much as giving them *too early*. Any veterinarian will tell you not to vaccinate your kitten or puppy before the age of 3 months because it could weaken the little creature’s immune system.

I’d like to see this recommendation from veterinarians as younger puppies are most vulnerable to diseases like parvovirus and coronavirus. Vaccines don’t weaken the immune system either so you’ll have to provide some support for that statement. It is such a contradiction to believe that somehow an infant’s or puppy’s immune system is robust enough to handle wild-type diseases but somehow fails when it comes to vaccination. It’s preposterous.

In fact, antibodies in the mother’s milk will protect babies until the age of 6 months, at which point the child’s immune system should be robust enough to take the strain of vaccination.

In fact? Then you will have no problem providing evidence for this statement as well. In fact not all antibodies are conferred via breastmilk. In fact, the mother has to have a sufficient circulating antibody titre to confer protective antibodies. In fact, not all maternally-derived antibodies even last six months and in fact, maternally-derived antibodies do not protect for all diseases.

It’s also a good idea to give the vaccines separately, and preferably a month apart, to give the immune system time to adjust.

Why? Is not an infant exposed to thousands of antigens and even immungens on a daily basis? Again, why is an infant’s immune system so fragile that they can handle this but not vaccination with compositions of far less immunogens than exposed to on a daily basis?

Autism, it turns out, is a hereditary weakness of nerve-structure, such that neuroconnectivity is weakened and signals are dissipated, [snip]

Oh really? Then I guess the Nobel prize goes to you and you can send all of those autism researchers home to study something else. ASDs present phenotypically different at both a physiological level and behavioural level, hence “spectrum disorder”.

Too-early vaccination has been linked to allergy problems and even SIDS, but not autism, thank you.

Agreed about the autism but quite wrong about allergies and SIDS, in fact the opposite has been found. http://www.aerzteblatt.de/pdf.asp?id=80869 and http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2003/Immunization-Safety-Review-Vaccinations-and-Sudden-Unexpected-Death-in-Infancy.aspx

Too-early vaccination was, frankly, the doing of lazy hospital staffs and doctors for their own convenience; if that practice had been nipped in the bud, all this anti-vaccination panic would never have started in the first place.

Um no. Vaccination schedules were carefully constructed based upon age/severity of diseases, response to vaccination and catchment. Anti-vaxxers are only about being against vaccines so it wouldn’t matter what the schedule was and we would be left with infant mortality rates that rival the mid twentieth century.

Leslie Fish – yeah, Dunning-Kruger. When we got our pure-bred kitten at 10 weeks, said kitten had already had several vaccines – per the recommendation of the vet the breeder worked with, as well as our own vet.

And yes, children/babies are subject to *far* more “toxins” on a daily basis. Even being born to a mother with chorioamnionitis (where there’s tons of bacteria for the baby to eat, breath, have on the skin) doesn’t lead to autism, SIDS, or allergies. A pretty sick neonate, who needs antibiotics, yes. But not those other things. Even when said baby is born by C-section and unfortunately got a little nicked with the scalpel, so the bacteria had direct contact with the infant’s bloodstream….

@Krebiozen #267

…a plausible case for fish oil being dangerous, due to its easy oxidation, and that the fashion for taking it would lead to an epidemic of cancer and other diseases.

maybe processed foods, fish oil, and wet snuff all mixed up in a bucket with the glyphosate on top??

…there was an increased frequency of liver cancer found in Norwegian farm animals. The farm animals had been fed on herring meal, which was preserved using sodium nitrite. The sodium nitrite had reacted with dimethylamine in the fish and produced dimethylnitrosamine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrosamine#Cancer
——————–

South Asian children’s diet often includes chapati flour which contains phytates that bind calcium, which may be another factor.

And the zinc and iron??

Phytic acid has a strong binding affinity to important minerals, such as calcium, iron, and zinc, although the binding of calcium with phytic acid is pH-dependent. The binding of phytic acid with iron is more complex, although there certainly is a strong binding affinity, molecules like phenols and tannins also influence the binding. When iron and zinc bind to phytic acid they form insoluble precipitate and are far less absorbable in the intestines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytic_acid#Food_science

I hear tell that ‘fiber’ and fiber foods including grains such as wheat and rice bind zinc in general. The zinc monomethionate as a supplement is *supposed* to resist this.

PGP:
I’m a little puzzled about Keith alleging that poor sanitation leads to rickets in England. He does know that London’s had sewers since the Romans, right?

Ah, you need to read to read Keith’s oeuvre on other websites. Things like flush toilets and a water-based sewerage system are what he has in mind when he says “poor sanitation”.

Kreb,

I hear you. It was a comment directed at Keith, but I also just felt like writing something… Life has been stressful lately and writing is a decent distraction from that for me.

I hope others picked something up from the words I wrote.

And, no, I haven’t actually read anything written by Keith Bell other than stuff on this thread and the green med info article that was linked.

Tim,

I am glad you found my words assimilable.

One thing about learning in this day and age is that a college degree, whether doctoral, undergrad or masters is just the beginning. These degrees simply provide the tools that are needed for a robust continuing education.

I’ve also contemplated the rate at which information is accruing. I want to say that it is exponential and that we are somewhere on the curve where the rate rapidly increases.

I can envision this graphically as time on the x axis and units of knowledge on the y axis, with a hyperbolic curve representing the trend.

If this is the case, then the amount of info that was accrued over a period of say the last 500 years could be doubled in as little as 5 years. This poses some real problems for our current pedagogical paradigms and educational institutions as well as healthcare (as alot of the information accrual is bio/medicine related) and models of teaching as I am not sure if this is being accounted for.

I can certainly see the exponential accrual of information related to the microflora and impacts on health and disease, but I have been watching for about 15 years now.

Anyway, just some random thoughts about learning…

have a good day!

Skeptiquette

PGP,

I’m a little puzzled about Keith alleging that poor sanitation leads to rickets in England. He does know that London’s had sewers since the Romans, right?

Some scatalogical trivia for you: London’s current sewerage system is largely based on an astonishing feat of Victorian engineering by a civil engineer called Joseph Bazalgette who built almost 100 miles of tunnels. It lasted a century but has has been collapsing slowly for years, and when I used to drive across half of London to work and back a few years ago I would regularly have to take detours because of road closures for sewer repairs.

I now live not far from the Beckton sewage works, where most of the sewage from London north of the Thames ends up. That’s the main reason the west end of London is the wealthy area and the east end the poor part. I suspect the same is true of other older cities, the upstream areas being the more desirable because they are less stinky.

PGP, I know who Skeptiquette is and she isn’t anti-vaxx nor a sock-puppet. Please go stuff your baseless accusations already.

Ah, Leslie’s Atlas Shrugged fan!

Because inadequate synaptic pruning may result in a plethora of weaker connections that would normally be targeted for pruning at the expense of establishing stronger long range connections.

I don’t have access to the Zhan et al. paper, and this part of neuroscience isn’t something that I’ve paid attention to in a very long while, but I’m curious (really) how one avoids imbuing ‘signal’ with teleogical underpinnings based on the circuit/wiring analogy.

Skeptiquette:

I’ve also contemplated the rate at which information is accruing. I want to say that it is exponential and that we are somewhere on the curve where the rate rapidly increases.

The exponential rate actually has been increasing. I read once, but I forget where, that at one time human knowledge increased by X% a year, while now it increases at Y% per year, where Y > X by a significant amount.

London’s current sewerage system is largely based on an astonishing feat of Victorian engineering by a civil engineer called Joseph Bazalgette who built almost 100 miles of tunnels

Ironically, he’s the great-great grandfather of Peter Bazalgette, the man who created the TV Production Company “Endemol” – the company that made “Big Brother”, and as such is responsible for piping vast quantities of sh*t back into our homes.

Ironically, he’s the great-great grandfather of Peter Bazalgette, the man who created the TV Production Company “Endemol” – the company that made “Big Brother”, and as such is responsible for piping vast quantities of sh*t back into our homes.

Are you sure? I think Endemol was founded by Joop van der Ende and John de Mol.

Sorry – “had a big hand in” would probably have been better. I think his company was bought out by Endemol and he ended up on the board. Or something.

🙂

Hmm – one of those discussions which might be fun to have
but utlimately seems to founder on definitions. But Ol’ Nick needs an advocate…

Theres no doubt the volume of ‘stuff written down’ is increasing, or even that the number of facts is increasing but are all facts equal? If someone gives me the statistical distribution of heights of humans I have a certain amount of information on one line of paper – if someone gives me a list of all heights of humans I have a considerable stack of paper (size of file whatever) but I’m not sure the information can be said to have increased by the same amount. Perhaps all facts are not equal – possibly for instance inventing the wheel from a starting point of essentially nothing is actually harder (and represents more information) than inventing a car given wheels. To your average caveman advances in flint making over several generations may well have seemed like an explosion in technology and knowledge.

Argument anyone? 😉

btw
‘The exponential rate has been increasing’
‘somewhere on the curve where the rate rapidly increases’
– if you mean the rate of change is increasing – well thats what exponentials do (the rate also increases exponentially – wherever you are on the curve – which goes to my point above also) – if you mean the coefficient is changing (with some form f(x)) then its not really exponential – I can write a linear change as exp(f(x)) also so it kinda loses its meaning.

Addendum: High fibre diets don’t make you a popular kid in the classroom.

How in the h3ll does that work**?

Pumping stations, some, like this one, not far from my current location, are absolutely gorgeous.

@Denice Walter – according to http://sf.streetsblog.org/2010/10/04/touring-san-franciscos-historic-sewer-system/, “Settlers saw an advantage to the watershed’s layout: cows and people drank the freshwater, and deposited their waste in the daily flush of the estuary.” The 1899 proposal for a gravity powered sewer is at http://books.google.com/books?id=1FZAAAAAIAAJ&lpg=PA36&ots=mo0nK10VuA&dq=grunsky%20san%20francisco%20sewer&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false

@ Mephistopheles O’Brien:

Thanks- that’s quite enlightening.
I didn’t do the Sewer Tour – only the Fire Tour ( self-guided).

until I noticed the monkeys in the area. I gave one a piece of fruit, and it rewarded me with a silk scarf

Those are *Shiva’s little helpers*. They’re vetting if you’re a Jehovah’s Witness or CIA or whatever. Resist the instinct to *catch* if one happens to pitch you a tannin-looking antique baseball and don’t inhale Shivakey-offered weed.

Why? Did it give you back the fruit??

It took the fruit and left the scarf, I imagine the monkey required a free hand to climb back to wherever it liked to hang out, and food is more useful to a monkey than a scarf.

Skeptiquette, thanks for your kind suggestions and for exploring how childhood vaccines may affect microbial colonization, however, you’ve neglected to address another core issue discussed: how flora may affect vaccine response leading to injury.

The example in question is African Americans responding to rubella vaccine with twice the antibodies relative to Caucasians and Hispanics. Narad is apparently the only person here understanding the problem, even offering several studies which may help explain kinetics between flora and host immune response; quite generous and much appreciated.

Everyone please continue licking your wounds here in solidarity. Nice to see the discussion about sanitation, well done.

Hi SM! We can talk more about how breastfeeding guards against vaccine injury later. Citation please. We can also talk discuss placental/vertical transmission of protozoans:
http://pptu.lefora.com/topic/3752578/PPTU-AUTISM-ASD-high-incidence-PPTU-protozoa-auti#.VDhJ9ClkEm8

Did you know ciliate protozoans are purposely multiplied in wastewater treatment to lower bacteria, then released into the environment unregulated? Bottoms up!

I suffered for over ten years with an inadequately treated giardia infection, so I know the misery protozoa can cause. However, I take any citation that starts with a quack miranda warning with a large pinch of salt. In my case a week’s course of a heavy-duty anti-amoebic drug did the trick.

Did you know ciliate protozoans are purposely multiplied in wastewater treatment to lower bacteria, then released into the environment unregulated? Bottoms up!

Citation needed.

Unsurprisingly, Keith seems to be unable to tell the difference between activated sludge and the correct final result.

How many links were in your comment, Keith?

Comments with more than two links automatically go into moderation. It will show up eventually.

Making fun of the people who are attempting to reply to you is hardly conducive to a productive discussion, though.

A summary without link of your main point, including the main conclusion(s) of the supporting citation(s) would be more to the point.

And, if vaccine scientists really were living a sterile world, there would be no microorganisms to vaccinate against. Of course, there would be no macroorganisms to need vaccination either. But, since we depend on microorganisms to digest and metabolize food, we’re sort of stuck with both.

“Correct final result” my ass.

Gee, Keith, perhaps it’s some sort of protozoan slime layer on your foundation that’s preventing you from sticking flounces.

Why you volunteered yet another failure is anyone’s guess, but let’s have it: (1) Quantitatively document your assertion, including a breakdown by types of ciliated protozoans. (2) Demonstrate some freaking upshot of this. (3) Detail your doubtlessly original and well thought out alternative approach to biological wastewater treatment.

Still waiting for my comment to be published here; apparently moderators have shut down this thread in their own sterility.

Nice to see you discover the canonical presentation of a whiny little dimwit.

Mr. Bell: “Vaccines have been designed to be injected into germ-free humans in utter disregard of microbial impact on immune response leading to vaccine injury.”

Really? Do you have any evidence of that?

Also, if that was true why was it that a huge percentage of children died before age five as recent of a century ago? Did the introduction of the first vaccines cause a sudden rise in these horrible microbial imbalances?

Please read The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review, and tell us what dire consequences greater than measles have plagued the formally “germ-free” humans since 1963 when the first measles vaccines were introduced, and how they became worse when the MMR was introduced in 1971.

Look, Mom, no links for you to lambast, such as the single one about high clostridia known in autism. There are many others for you to ignore and conveniently disregard the issue.

Why not Keithy wee-bits? You have so much proof then it would be trivial to post the evidence. I didn’t disregard your “studies”, in fact I gave you the consideration of reading through them
if you would bother to look.

germ free humans??? that is not even possible!

I know especially coming from someone rather obsessed with gut microflora and how vaccines supposedly ruin it.

From “shitwit” to “dimwit,” sounds like I’ve graduated.

No, Keith, you’ve gone downhill by whining that you’re being censored. I’ll let you in on something: my earlier replies to you eventually put me into the automod queue. Rather than bitching and moaning about inadequate service delivery, I took the time to ask myself, “Self, why might these comments not be appearing promptly?”

I couldn’t help but return after seeing the group hug

I’m sure that this pathetic display on your part is well couched in an understanding of the context.

but mostly to thank Skeptiquette and point out her glaring omission. I did the same earlier with Kreb.

You really didn’t get the “Comical Ali” thing, did you?

Narad’s the only person here to acknowledge the main point, still caught in tangents like Celiac disease and sanitation as if trying to bury the evidence.

I think I’ve quite fully acknowledged the main point, which is that the best you can do is randomly throw things against the wall and pretend that it was actually somebody else when called to task.

OK. I don’t have any idea what Keith is either smoking or drinking, but I don’t want any of it. The only “germ-free” humans on earth are those who have been cremated…

Dawn, did you know that your “germs” also known as bacteria, fungi, protozoans and archaea interact with your immune system and help you to create antibodies?

So, when you’re vaccinated, your microbes play an important role in how the vaccine works or doesn’t work. The issue is that everyone has different levels of the various microbes, so people react differently to vaccines, including leading to vaccine injury. This is why the trend in thought is microbes cause autoimmune disorders.

The problem is the vaccine scientists are only beginning to take this dynamic into account by creating probiotic adjuvants. If they’re lucky, these adjuvants might also lower risk of vaccine injury, but that’s never seen discussed.

Btw, I happen to live in sunny Florida where our beaches are also severely polluted, probably worse than the UK in some cases such as the Indian River Lagoon where dolphins and manatees are dying at record levels.

See links in comment #184 for examples of how bacteria affect immune response including antibody production. Thanks for informative, albeit sterile paper.

The paper may also be considered obsolete, its newest references from 2006. The best microbiome research has taken place in the last few years accompanied by a surge of interest in the field along with the recognition of flora balance as crucial to general health.

What I’m addressing is something the Mayo Clinic cannot answer as of 2014. Moreover, it’s obvious microbes affect immune response in vaccination (probioitic adjuvants, breastfeeding). What’s new is the idea that this is also mechanism for injury.

I’ll continue reading though; thanks again for the paper.

@HDB #162

The results might go the wrong way. Some cases of temporal-lobe epilepsy result from encephalitis from vaccine-preventable diseases.

Hoping I’m not missing something myself by your reply, but I meant that instead of rambling on about guts, vaccines and epilepsy Keith might turn up a study that specifically looks at the hypothesis he’s proposing. Instead of news articles or supposition, or reliance on papers that don’t actually test his hypothesis but look at other things.

@Chris #163

Wow, that’s a lot of silliness.

@Narad

Given that Liz’s involvement in these comments has had nothing to do with your asshattery, I would like to suggest that you take this pissy little sign-off and figure out a way for it to be the last thing that pops into your head during an botched episode of autoerotic asphyxiation.

I know you’re frustrated but I really find this comment to be too much, especially coming from you. I spend most of these threads thinking “I want to be Narad when I grow up” as I find your comments to be consistently thoughtful, insightful, intelligent, unfailingly patient (if exasperated at times) and witty. Please don’t stoop to these sorts of nasty comments.

/end tone trolling

“…in some cases such as the Indian River Lagoon where dolphins and manatees are dying at record levels.”

It’s probably due to vaccines altering the intestinal biome, producing toxic sewage which leaches into the lagoon. Scientists have not properly accounted for this correlation.

Proof reading is so easy when it’s too late. I meant to write “any type of gut flora increases” and the last sentence required a question mark.

Flip, there are no such papers available. You heard it here first. What I’m trying to do is inspire such study. Know of any capable labs willing to accept crowdfunding and jeopardize future Pharma funding? Narad is brilliantly inspiring me to describe the mechanism. Obviously no immunologist, I’m an environmentalist, but would give it a whirl. It would help if people here could grasp the concept, such as Kreb and Skepti who would have something to offer in support of this game-changing construct.

Mayo Clinic found doubled antibodies to rubella vaccine in Somalis who happen to suffer extremely high rates of autism in the USA and Sweden where they call it “Swedish disease.” It’s something like one in 35 children suffering autism, or 1 in 25 boys, not good odds for prospective parents.

Mayo Clinic doesn’t know why the groups react so differently, but they do think knowledge may lead to reducing side effects of vaccines. I sent my article about microbial predisposition to the entire vaccine group at Mayo without response. They’re focused on genes.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140226155505.htm

So, how do flora play a role in twice the antibody response and how might this lead to injury? I’m not capable at this point of defending the hypothesis, but want to demonstrate biological plausibility. Here’s a general picture:
1) The vaccine infects glial cells of the brain and small intestine.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7898052
http://ajpgi.physiology.org/content/303/8/G887

2) B-cells are activated and cross blood-brain barrier, attacking the gut-brain.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3875145
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1964178
http://www.jci.org/articles/view/63842

3) Flora interact with B-cells to create antibodies and promote B-cell maturation:
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jir/2014/325938/
http://www.nature.com/pr/journal/v51/n6/full/pr2002125a.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12473264
http://www.journalofdairyscience.org/article/S0022-0302%2891%2978272-6/pdf
http://www.jimmunol.org/content/188/9/4315.abstract
http://www.microbecolhealthdis.net/index.php/mehd/article/view/7838
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC368237/
http://www.mdpi.com/2073-4468/2/4/535

4) The inflammatory cascade results in seizures, autism and diabetes.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/03/diabetes-rises-in-kids/8604213/
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130122111512.htm
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/108647.php
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/5/4/diabetes-childrenrise.html

5) Somali flora is different than other groups based on ancestral dietary patterns, possibly higher in propionic acid-producing microbes which is neurotoxic at high levels.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3747729/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20964674/

MMR might not cause autism in some infants if given later in life when flora is more developed. We have the nerve to inject HepB into newborns within 12 hours of birth when they haven’t even breastfed, so they’re low in bifidobacteria which are known to affect vaccine response:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25002669

“Bifidobacterium predominance may enhance thymic development and responses to both oral and parenteral vaccines early in infancy, whereas deviation from this pattern, resulting in greater bacterial diversity, may cause systemic inflammation (neutrophilia) and lower vaccine responses.”

I’m failing to see how this random swerve from MMR to Hep B constitutes an argument in favor of delaying until “flora is more developed.”

My friend has a newborn son and hasn’t given him the MMR vaccine. I’m concerned. Should I report him to Child Protective Services? They shouldn’t even let babies leave the hospital without getting all of the vaccines.

@Nick : uh, looks like you’re panicking for nothing. The MMR isn’t given until 12 months. Only the Hepatitis B shot is given to newborns.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/downloads/child/0-18yrs-child-combined-schedule.pdf

Keith,
I believe you are suggesting that Hooker’s results regarding African American male children are correct (they clearly are not), and that they respond differently to MMR because their gut flora differs from that of people with a different microbiotic heritage. I meant to respond to this before. You wrote:

Studies show major differences in flora balance between African and European children. This is based on generations of dietary habits and geographic differences in soil microbes.

I can buy a difference in dietary habits, but African American children’s ancestors have lived in the US for several generations. Are you suggesting that African microbiota persist in their guts? It’s not impossible (though surely their 20% non-African ancestry would affect this), but this study found only minor differences in the gut flora of African Americans and Caucasian Americans, and concluded these differences were due to dietary differences.

Kreb, yes, I am suggesting African microbiota persists even generations after living in the US

This seems unlikely to me. Is there any proof of this?

I would suspect that food and water consumption would play a larger roll than where your grandmother grew up.

Of course, there is no compelling evidence that AA kids are at anymore risk of adverse of vaccine injury than any other kids, so trying to find a mechanism for the nonexistent injury is just mental masturbation.

I’m sure if you did your research honestly (if that’s possible for you) you’d discover some of the many heartbreaking stories of infants who contracted whooping cough (a.k.a. rubella, a.k.a. the R in MMR)…

Whooping Cough is pertussis, the P in DTaP. Having said that, Nick is a first class plonker.

Argh. Thanks for catching my error, Julian. Not sure why those two wires crossed for me.

Antaeus Feldspar

Please, my friends child is a few months old and didn’t get any vaccines. You think this is safe and should be legal? I didn’t know the MMR is 1 year and I don’t know why that is. The schedule shows 5 shots at 2 months old. He already missed those. Why not add in one more? I’ve seen research that shows a baby could theoretically get thousands of vaccines at one time. The MMR shot should be given earlier. It’s not like something magical happens to a baby at 12 months. It has been proven safe.

“MMR can be given earlier than one year.”

For certain special circumstances. It just doesn’t work as well.

“Please, my friends child is a few months old and didn’t get any vaccines. You think this is safe and should be legal? I didn’t know the MMR is 1 year and I don’t know why that is”

Perhaps you should educate yourself a bit more about vaccines and your local laws before telling your friend anything.

If it bothers you, then make sure to stay away from that friend and their child. You might want to share some of the things you learn with your research. Here are a couple of places to start with:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/index.html
and
http://www.historyofvaccines.org/

I’ve seen stories of 8 month old babies getting measles. I don’t know what the CDC is thinking. Parents should just say they are going abroad so they can get the vaccine at 6 months.

Oh quit wanking off Nick. Megan’s child was infected as a result of anti-vaxx parents bringing their measles-infected spawn into a paediatric waiting room. Parents need to vaccinate on time; that’s what you should be carping about.

I would suspect that food and water consumption would play a larger roll than where your grandmother grew up.

The gut microbiome is intergenerationally stable. Unless it changes within a generation when a group of immigrants move to the US and acquire the same rates of heart disease and obesity and diabetes as their new culture.

The gut microbiome is intergenerationally stable UNLESS it depends on diet UNLESS it is completely overturned by exposure to water-based sanitation… depending on which real or imagined phenomena it is called upon to explain.

I believe we are in violent agreement, herr doktor.

My understanding is that a family living for generations in, say, Minnesota is going to have a microbiome different from, say, a family living on the gulf coast. Should a woman from the Minnesota family move down south, her children, born and raised drinking different water, eating more fresh seafood, playing in different dirt, and playing in the ocean would, I suspect, have different bugs crawling around inside. I believe these children’s guts would be more like those of their southern classmates, not their grandmothers. This makes sense to me and seems logical.

I could see how the mother’s gut might not change -new bugs come in, and find “no vacancy” signs everywhere.

Or maybe not. I admit I’m not an expert, which is why I ask for a citation for the claim that family history is more important than environment.

The type of diversity they’re referring to in that study is an inflammatory type, not the normally viewed beneficial type of diversity in adult flora associated with good health.

Because you say so, Keith? Would you like point out where in the actual paper it says this? Do you think that maybe breast milk might include Enterobacteriales, Pseudomonadales, and Clostridiales (PDF; p. 14), even though no sensible reading of the abstract suggests that these are what is meant by “diversity”?

The paper in question states:
“Bacterial diversity and abundance of Enterobacteriales, Pseudomonadales, and Clostridiales were associated with neutrophilia and lower vaccine responses.” That’s an inflammatory state associated with reduced bifidobacteria and poor vaccine response.

Keith, this is the same damn abstract that I was talking about in the first place. The only things that you have demonstrated are that (1) you didn’t understand what I wrote and (2) you think adding one unsupported assertion to another is somehow helpful.

neutrophilia [is] an inflammatory state associated with reduced bifidobacteria and poor vaccine response.

In theory at least, we could sequence the bacterial DNA present on this definition and work out whose ass it was pulled from.

Let me remind you the CDC Senior Scientist admitted data suggested African Americans males at greater risk of autism by MMR

Which, you know, proved to be a catastrophe when in full public bloom.

The only “masturbation” going on here is in your head.

Oh, the irony.

Narad, what’s your point? “Diversity” in that paper includes an abundance of inflammatory microbes.

So, you can’t successfully the parse the relevant sentences (despite having it handed to you), don’t understand the difference between an order and a species, and have no answer whatever for the simple question, “Would you like point out where in the actual paper it says this?

Well played.

It’s so simple.
Reports of associated vaccine injuries and deaths are higher by a factor of 20 to 100.
Improperly administered and regulated vaccination programs cause the vast majority of vaccine injuries and deaths.
The bloggers here try to pretend that everything is okay, so that the true harm is kept hidden and the vast wealth accumulated by drug companies, executives and CEOs is protected from paying for the injuries and deaths known to be caused by their products.

The decades worth of compounding lies and fraudulent epidemiological research forces them to deny the truth by preponderance of propaganda, thereby protecting their ever-mounting fortunes.

2014 MMR package insert – http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf

11 pages of warnings precautions contraindications adverse events and adverse reactions. That is down from the 12 pages in the 2010 version. I haven’t investigated the differences yet… probably the font or the page’s physical length.

Diabetes is still listed as an “adverse reaction”.

The FDA defines the difference between “adverse event” and “adverse reaction” as this –
An adverse event can be coincidental with a vaccine or caused by a vaccine. We simply do not know.
An adverse reaction is a drug adverse event for which causal evidence exists. This is not PROOF, but the association is now causal, stronger than coincidental.
“The definition of adverse reactions does not include all adverse events observed during use of a drug. It is limited to those events for which there is some basis to believe there is a causal relationship between occurrence of an adverse event and the use of a drug ”
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/drugs/guidancecomplianceregulatoryinformation/guidances/ucm075057.pdf

I talked to representatives at Merck and the FDA regarding this particular adversity associated with MMR, Diabetes.
Both told me to contact the other about what evidence was available.

When I finally ping-ponged my way back to the FDA they wouldn’t admit whether or not any such evidence existed, despite Merck stating the FDA had it.

The FDA rep then threw a different spin on what needed to be done. She told me to submit an FOIA request.
I would have to pay the FDA for the time it took to research for the information, reproduce it and mail it to me.
They couldn’t guarantee they could find the info, or release it if they found it… and the rep never expressed the least bit interest in learning that Merck stated the FDA has the information that MMR causes diabetes.
What they did guarantee was that I would be billed for their effort whether or not they found anything and whether or not, if they did find the evidence, they felt it could be released to me.

The MMR package insert also admits MMR is coincidentally associated with or causally associated with many different types of neurological injury and several types of auto-immune reactions.
Of course there will be varying degrees of injury, some without symptoms, some leading to death –
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10589903 –
Bitnun et al abstract – “measles inclusion-body encephalitis (MIBE) occurring in an apparently healthy 21-month-old boy 8.5 months after measles-mumps-rubella vaccination. He had no prior evidence of immune deficiency and no history of measles exposure or clinical disease.”
This child spent two months dying in a hospital, accompanied by his parents. Frustrated doctors didn’t find out the cause until the brain biopsy revealed vaccine strain measles infection.

Improper route of infection (vaccination), coupled with an undiagnosed immune problem, resulted in inadvertent vaccination which caused this child’s death.

How many more die months after live vaccinations and the cause is not diagnosed. The child’s death is just chalked up to an obvious encephalitis, a brain infection, and less motivated autopsy efforts never find that MMR supplied the pathogens?
How many more children recover from MMR-caused encephalitis, but are brain injured?
How many others are asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic but end up neurologically affected?
We don’t know, nor are we making any active effort to find out what the numbers are. And that is just for neurological injuries.

The HHS Vaccine Injury Table lists many of the reactions in the MMR package insert. These VIT injuries, if they happen within certain timeframes after vaccination, are assumed to be caused by MMR, because of the preponderance of scientific and medical evidence. http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/vaccinetable.html

Vaccines can never be described truthfully as “safe and effective”, for anyone. they can be described as “apparently safe and effective for most”. That the best that can be said.

Give that MMR package insert a good read. It is an eye-opener.
According to Merck, in the MMR PI, Merck warns that parents, guardians or vaccinees must be made aware of the contraindications, precautions and warnings every time MMR is administered… no one does that.
NO ONE!

Any health professional who would honestly try to go through that entire package insert, as Merck says should be done, every time MMR was administered would be fired if they didn’t stop following the directions.

As a result of improper screening we have kids and adults susceptible to vaccine injury being vaccinated and injured every day.
And it is not just MMR vaccinees that are not screened properly. Other live vaccinations carry similar risks, especially the multi-valent ones.

Better screening would result in many live vaccines falling under the 90% threshold for herd immunity. Another reason no one pushes for screening in accordance with package inserts.
Vaccinations rates falling because of proper screening to avoid injuring kids, would result in demands for safer vaccines so more kids and adults could be vaccinated.

Here’s an example of how mainstream drug companies and the FDA are tripping themselves up.
CDC/FDA/Merck/researchers all state that 90% of us clear all HPV without drugs doctors or vaccines… the other 10% have Cellular Immunity problems.
That’s 10% of the population that can’t be vaccinated with any live vaccine unless, as Merck states in their package insert, “until the immune competence of the potential vaccine recipient is demonstrated”.
the child who died in the Bitnun study had a low CD8 count. That is a cellular immune deficiency that, coupled with MMR vaccination, led to a child, his parents and healthcare professionals all suffering through a two month unsuccessful effort to save that toddler’s life.

Besides cellular immune problems there are others who cannot be vaccinated. Anyone using Nasonex, Flonase, Humira, Enbrel, Remicade, Orencia… many other types of drugs with systemic immune systems affects.
In the package insert Merck warns that “Individuals with a family history of congenital or hereditary immunodeficiency” can’t be vaccinated unless it is proved their immune system can handle the live virus in MMR..

MMR causes arthritis – “In women, incidence rates for arthritis and arthralgia are generally higher than those seen in children (children: 0-3%; women: 12-26%),{17,56,57} and the reactions tend to be more marked and of longer duration. Symptoms may persist for a matter of months or on rare occasions for years.”
This is not an association, adverse event or reaction. This is proved and admitted by Merck in the MMR PI.

Diabetes is also an autoimmune problem, and evidence exists that MMR causes diabetes. but Merck and the FDA won’t simply publish the information. Why not. Isn’t that the responsible thing to do. To allow the scrutiny of peer review?

Shouldn’t we know for sure whether or not MMR causes diabetes?

HHS/CDC admit that VAERS, since it is voluntary, reports only a “small fraction” of associated adverse events and reactions to vaccinations. –
http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index

So we don’t have active surveillance, the reports we do get are likely 20 – 100 times more numerous, MMR is known to cause autoimmune an neurological problems, and evidence exists (but is not being shared) that MMR causes diabetes (which has been rising epidemically for more than 20 years, coinciding with the tripling of our vaccine schedule, rising GMOs in our food and cell phone radiation… not that there is anything wrong with any of that – http://psrast.org/ – http://www.psrast.org/mobileng/mobilstarteng.htm)

Are vaccines necessary? Yes. But not to protect those kids healthy enough to be vaccinated.
Properly runa dn regulated vaccination programs protect those kids like the young boy in the Bitnun study… those kids who shouldn’t be vaccinated with live virus because they have immune problems, or kids who have sensitivities to or are unable to properly metabolize toxins and contaminants in vaccines from manufacturing methods and corporate cost-cutting measures.

Making vaccines safer, as Jenny McCarthy calls for in her “Greening vaccines” campaign, could dramatically increase herd immunity numbers by making more kids vaccinatable.
Safer less toxic vaccines will also reduce the unacceptably high estimated numbers of vaccine associated injuries and deaths.
Maybe then the drug industry executives and CEOs along with their lackeys in the FDA/CDC administrations could actually face the real numbers of deaths and injuries their products cause and real science could find some prevention answers and treatments for the millions they have injured and continue to deny recognition or compensation.

This is simple to see if you take the time to read and understand.

As always,
For the protection of children,
In the interests of truth and science,
Michael Polidori

We tend to eat what our parents ate.
No way am I eating tripe.

@Michael Polidori:

Reports of associated vaccine injuries and deaths are higher by a factor of 20 to 100.

Two things. Operative phrase “Reports of”. And Citation needed.

11 pages of warnings precautions contraindications adverse events and adverse reactions. That is down from the 12 pages in the 2010 version. I haven’t investigated the differences yet… probably the font or the page’s physical length.

Or maybe research was done that revealed that some of the adverse events weren’t related to the vaccine.

Diabetes is still listed as an “adverse reaction”.
The FDA defines the difference between “adverse event” and “adverse reaction” as this –
An adverse event can be coincidental with a vaccine or caused by a vaccine. We simply do not know.

Then why does the insert read (and I bolded the relevant part)

The following adverse reactions are listed in decreasing order of severity, without regard to causality

?

I talked to representatives at Merck and the FDA regarding this particular adversity associated with MMR, Diabetes.
Both told me to contact the other about what evidence was available.
When I finally ping-ponged my way back to the FDA they wouldn’t admit whether or not any such evidence existed, despite Merck stating the FDA had it.

Or maybe each told you to ask the other because they didn’t have any evidence and believed the other might.

The MMR package insert also admits MMR is coincidentally associated with or causally associated with many different types of neurological injury and several types of auto-immune reaction.

See comment above about what the insert really said.

As a result of improper screening we have kids and adults susceptible to vaccine injury being vaccinated and injured every day.
And it is not just MMR vaccinees that are not screened properly. Other live vaccinations carry similar risks, especially the multi-valent ones.

MMR causes arthritis – “In women, incidence rates for arthritis and arthralgia are generally higher than those seen in children (children: 0-3%; women: 12-26%),{17,56,57} and the reactions tend to be more marked and of longer duration. Symptoms may persist for a matter of months or on rare occasions for years.”
This is not an association, adverse event or reaction. This is proved and admitted by Merck in the MMR PI

Once again, see comment about Adverse Reactions above.

CDC/FDA/Merck/researchers all state that 90% of us clear all HPV without drugs doctors or vaccines… the other 10% have Cellular Immunity problems.

Citation needed.

Diabetes is also an autoimmune problem, and evidence exists that MMR causes diabetes.

Only Type 1, not Type 2. And what evidence suggests that MMR causes diabetes?

MMR is known to cause autoimmune an neurological problems, and evidence exists (but is not being shared) that MMR causes diabetes (which has been rising epidemically for more than 20 years, coinciding with the tripling of our vaccine schedule, rising GMOs in our food and cell phone radiation.

Citation needed. Oh, and the rise in diabetes is mainly Type 2, caused by too many calories and not enough exercise. So I’m calling you out for lying.

Are vaccines necessary? Yes. But not to protect those kids healthy enough to be vaccinated.

You are a revolting individual. To you, all those unvaccinated children who died from vaccine preventable diseases were “unwell”. Also, given that after MMR vaccination was introduced the number of measles cases fell off a cliff, you are wrong, to put it politely.

Maybe then the drug industry executives and CEOs along with their lackeys in the FDA/CDC administrations could actually face the real numbers of deaths and injuries their products cause and real science could find some prevention answers and treatments for the millions they have injured and continue to deny recognition or compensation.

Or maybe vaccines ARE safe and you’re talking horse droppings.

Michael Polidori, if I recall his previous visits, is something of a hit-&-run troll, so refutations of his claims are wasted effort. He will just repeat them on his next drive-by.

Michael Polidori,

Diabetes is still listed as an “adverse reaction”.
It is listed as an adverse reaction reported after MMR, “without regard to causality”. It would be astonishing if no one developed any of the listed conditions after MMR, purely by chance. The Institute of Medicine report states that:

The committee concluded the evidence favors rejection of five vaccine–adverse event relationships. These include MMR vaccine and type 1 diabetes, diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis (DTaP) vaccine and type 1 diabetes, MMR vaccine and autism, inactivated influenza vaccine and asthma exacerbation or reactive airway disease episodes, and inactivated influenza vaccine and Bell’s palsy.

That’s a strong statement from the IoM, which is very strict about its terminology where burden of evidence is concerned.

I talked to representatives at Merck and the FDA regarding this particular adversity associated with MMR, Diabetes.

I suggest you read the IoM report, which has copious references to evidence that MMR does not cause diabetes. You can download it free at the link I gave above.

This child spent two months dying in a hospital, accompanied by his parents. Frustrated doctors didn’t find out the cause until the brain biopsy revealed vaccine strain measles infection.

This was a child with an unidentified primary immunodeficiency. Imagine what effects a wild measles infection would have had. I find it baffling that antivaxxers get excited about a single case of vaccine injury from 15 years ago, but ignore the 400-500 children who died from measles every year in the US before the measles vaccine was introoduced. Anyway, here’s what the paper’s authors concluded:

The risk of such a serious adverse event must be balanced by the rarity of such an event and the overwhelming evidence supporting the efficacy of the vaccine in reducing the morbidity and mortality associated with measles. It is significant that our patient was found to suffer from a profound deficiency of CD8 cells as well as dysgammaglobulinemia, which were not suspected clinically at the time of vaccination.

Most significant primary immunodeficiency states in children will be detected before the age of MMR vaccination, and for such children live virus vaccines should be avoided. Clearly, a serious outcome such as occurred for this patient is an exceedingly rare event, and this report should not lead to changes in current immunization practices.

Exceedingly rare versus one death in a thousand? I know which I choose.

Improper route of infection (vaccination), coupled with an undiagnosed immune problem, resulted in inadvertent vaccination which caused this child’s death.

What does “improper route of infection” mean? Is there a proper route of infection? If wild measles is so much better than MMR, why is a child more likely to die from a wild measles infection than it is to suffer febrile seizures (which almost always resolve uneventfully) after MMR? What sane person would think the former is better than the latter? If it wasn’t for routine vaccination this child would very likely have contracted a contagious disease and died long before getting MMR.

Sigh. Maybe I’ll give up using blockquote, since I have apparently lost the ability to get it right. Posting in a rush again, Sorry.

Michael Polidori’s comment has a familiar ring to it. I wonder why.

Same old bullsh!t, which he posted on Autism News Beat one month ago…

http://autism-news-beat.com/archives/2310#comment-54085

Flip, you don’t even know what you’re searching for, but nice that you’ve admitted it’s all gone over your head. Here it is in a nutshell:

Vaccine scientists live in a sterile world, not factoring flora’s role in immune response. Everyone has a different flora balance which may make individuals and groups more prone to vaccine injury. Instead, the Mayo Clinic puts focus on genes.
http://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-discovers-african-americans-respond-better-to-rubella-vaccine/

Kreb, gut flora balance is hardly a simple matter of diet. You can feed two people the same thing and it affects flora differently. This includes gender differences:
http://www.utexas.edu/news/2014/07/29/diet-affects-microbes-differently-by-gender/

Narad, where’s the substance of your comments? You’re beginning to become a joke worthy of being ignored. And here I thought you might have something to offer among all these fools following Gorski. And where’s Skeptiquette when you need her? Scratching her head like the Mayo Clinic?

@michael

Still pissed off that you got banned from LR/RB because of your incomprehensible rants?

@keith

Considering that you have not posted any evidence for your assertions, I think I can assume that you are continually lying and that you admit that your pet theory is full of crock.

Keith, let me make this as simple as possible for you.

Do you have ANY evidence which indicates clearly that flora balance IS a major determining factor in how people respond to vaccines?

You are NOT being asked – I am stating this so that you cannot come back later and say you weren’t asked clearly enough – you are NOT being asked for evidence that merely FITS WITH that speculation. You are being asked ONLY for evidence for which your vaccines-gut flora speculation is THE most likely explanation.

An example of what would count: a case-control study in which a significant number of subjects with injuries that were postulated to be “vaccine injuries” were compared with an appropriate number of controls and some substantive difference in gut flora was observed that distinguished the “injured” from the controls.

An example of what does not count: a link to a journal article which simply says “hey, here’s some results which COULD be explainable if there was a link between gut flora and the immune system.” Neither have we the FAINTEST interest in diatribes about why a big ol’ conspiracy has kept scientists from researching in the directions YOU think they should. You are being challenged to support claims YOU HAVE MADE, and either you have that evidence or you do not.

Present your best evidence within your next three comments (on this or any other thread) or it will be taken as an admission that you do not have such evidence.

Facts are clear “that flora balance IS a major determining factor in how people respond to vaccines” and the entire vaccination industry is banking on it.

How can facts be clear when previously you admit

While there are no such studies as the example you describe because IT’S A NEW THEORY (perhaps this thread will inspire future study)

Facts are clear, although there aren’t any facts? Facts are clear, but only if this thread inspires future study which might actually produce such facts?

Why is it so far-fetched to consider possibility that flora may dysregulate immune response by vaccination leading to vaccine injury?

Because as you admit yourself in the second paragraph of your post there’s no evidence which supports such a possibility.

Keith makes the statement –

I am suggesting African microbiota persists even generations after living in the US

I take exception to this claim, and state that I suspect that diet would play a larger roll.

To back his claim up, Keith post a link to an article on microbemagazine[dot]com, where I read in the second paragraph –

Although phylum-level and genus-level components are shared among most individuals, species- and strain-level variations occur in response to factors such as diet, microbemicrobe interactions within the community, and host genetics.

He also refers to an article in Nature, and points to a particular figure. This figure shows the relative abundance of of 4 microbes at 3 locations on the body relative to race. The locations are the tongue, the nostrils, and the skin of the inner elbow. While these locations do play a roll in the overall immune system, how they relate to vaccines is unclear to me.

Just above that figure, I read –

We conclude that most variation in the human microbiome is not well explained by these phenotypic metadata, and other potentially important factors such as short- and long-term diet, daily cycles, founder effects such as mode of delivery, and host genetics should be considered in future analyses.

So, yeah, it does appear that there are indeed differences in the microbiome that are race related, but no evidence presented that race plays a major roll, or a larger roll that diet. Both of his own references list diet first in a list that end with genetics.

So, yeah, genetics does play a roll, but I’ve never seen anyone here claim otherwise. But Keith sure did prove it to us. But proof that AA kids living in the US for generations have significantly different microbiomes than kids descended from, say, european stock in a way that would change their response to vaccines in a measurable way, not so much.

Keith then goes on to state –

Counterintuitive discovery of higher risk of seizures with delayed MMR. Perhaps mechanism is reduced bifidobacteria which protect from vaccine injury:

Perhaps. There is no evidence presented to support this claim. But, hey, it’s as likely as, say, the size of the children’s hands.

In response to my statement that there is no compelling evidence that AA kids are at anymore risk of adverse of vaccine injury than any other kids, Keith refers me to Thompson’s press release.

You heard it here, folks. Compelling evidence can be found in a press release issued in association to a paper withdrawn from publication.

In my life, I’ve met and worked with a few intelligence analyst. One lesson I’ve learned from them is that, while you would like to have an infinite amount of noise free data, you are stuck with a finite amount of noisy data. A self serving press release (is there any other kind?) and a discredited paper is what they would call ‘noise’.

(All of you posting here, supporting the Orac, should be using your real identities).

Why?

Using one’s real identity does nothing to increase the strength of any argument one makes, nor does using a nickname or handle do anything to decrease thesrength of any argument one makes: all arguments stand or fall on their own as a function of the evidence which can be offered in their support.

The MMR package insert is a legal binding contract between Merck and the vaccinees.

Please cite the case law demonstrating package inserts constitute a legally recognized contractual agreementbetween a producer of vaccines and every consumer of that vaccine.

Diarrhea is a symptom of vaccine injury:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/vaccine-injury-case-offer/

Let us grant temporarily, for the purpose of argument, the proposition that Hannah Poling’s case is typical of “vaccine injury” (even though the cited article makes it clear that there is NOT a scientific consensus on that question) and that Hannah Poling’s symptoms included diarrhea.

Why do you imagine that would be relevant to a request for evidence that shows gut flora to be CAUSATIVE of vaccine injury? If you show that broken bones happen because of a car accident, does that in the FAINTEST respect constitute evidence for the proposition “broken bones cause car accidents”? That ANY aspect of the bones is somehow causative of car accidents? If my eyes dilate when I suffer a concussion, does that constitute proof that something in my eyes was a major contributing factor to the concussion and I wouldn’t have gotten one if I’d just had different eyes.

Do you, in fact, comprehend the concept that “cause” and “effect” actually come in a particular order and are not interchangeable?

The point is, if an infant does not have the optimal mix of microbes, they are more prone to vaccine injury.

The point is that a statement such as the one you just made is worthless unless it has supporting evidence. Not only do you not have supporting evidence, you couldn’t pass an open-book test that asked you to identify what kind of evidence actually WOULD BE supportive of such a statement.

Feldspar, you’ve misconstrued the evidence. Put your thinking cap on.

Diarrhea is a symptom of vaccine injury which is “significantly reduced” by use of probiotics. This implies microbes are protective from vaccine injury.

But the third study posted takes it a step further. Here it is again, read it slowly, please:
“Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG on Rotavirus-Induced Injury of Ileal Epithelium in Gnotobiotic Pigs”
http://journals.lww.com/jpgn/Abstract/2013/12000/Lactobacillus_rhamnosus_GG_on_Rotavirus_Induced.13.aspx
The probiotic prevented injury to the ileum, third section of small intestine, thereby reducing associated diarrhea.

If you knew something about the gut-brain connection, you might imagine human infants as the non-fed group suffering extensive intestinal damage because they weren’t given the probiotic becoming autistic epileptics.

I’d bet probiotics pre- and post vaccination becomes the norm to protect from vaccine injury and improve vaccine response, dose and strain dependent. This in contrast to glutathione-lowering drugs like Tylenol (Acetaminophen) leading to injury.

Apparently, Gorski is becoming embarrassed by the length of comments here, advertising his recent, irrelevant post.

bimler, glad you’re enjoying the show. Get Narad some popcorn and a Coke so he can foster his overgrowth known as SIBO. I prefer to call it SIBFO (small intestinal bacterial fungal overgrowth).

Feldspar, you’ve misconstrued the evidence. Put your thinking cap on.

Diarrhea is a symptom of vaccine injury which is “significantly reduced” by use of probiotics. This implies microbes are protective from vaccine injury.

But the third study posted takes it a step further. Here it is again, read it slowly, please:
“Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG on Rotavirus-Induced Injury of Ileal Epithelium in Gnotobiotic Pigs”
http://journals.lww.com/jpgn/Abstract/2013/12000/Lactobacillus_rhamnosus_GG_on_Rotavirus_Induced.13.aspx
The probiotic prevented injury to the ileum, third section of small intestine, thereby reducing associated diarrhea.

If you knew something about the gut-brain connection, you might imagine human infants as the non-fed group suffering extensive intestinal damage because they weren’t given the probiotic becoming autistic epileptics.

I’d bet probiotics pre- and post vaccination becomes the norm to protect from vaccine injury and improve vaccine response, dose and strain dependent. This in contrast to glutathione-lowering drugs like Tylenol (Acetaminophen) leading to injury.

Apparently, Gorski is becoming embarrassed by the length of comments here, advertising his recent, irrelevant post.

bimler, glad you’re enjoying the show. Get Narad some popcorn and a Coke so he can foster his overgrowth known as SIBO. I prefer to call it SIBFO (small intestinal bacterial fungal overgrowth).

Here’s a pig study showing a probiotic protective against diarrhea by RV vaccination while enhancing immune response:

No, it’s a study that found that diarrhea due to rotavirus infection is ameliorated by probiotics, nothing to do with rotavirus vaccination.

This study uses a prebiotic toward the same effect:

Yes, in gnotobiotic pigs (with no, or known microbiota), but how does this support your hypothesis? It doesn’t seem surprising to me that both prebiotics and probiotics increase immune response to vaccines. How does this suggest that ‘dysbiosis’ causes the exaggerated immune response that is usually blamed for vaccine injury, such as Hannah Poling’s, since you bring up that tragic case?

Diarrhea is a symptom of vaccine injury:

Personally I am very skeptical that Hannah Poling’s problems had anything to do with vaccination. Her mitochondrial disorder and/or chronic ear infection seem to me more likely to be responsible. As the article states:

A fever caused by an ear infection or the flu would likely have triggered the autism symptoms if they occurred before or between the ages of 24 and 36 months, he says, which is when classic, regressive autism, which affects one third of sufferers, usually appears.

Finally:

And another about lactobacillus protective from small intestinal injury by RV vaccination:

No, not RV vaccination, again RV infection: “a gnotobiotic (Gn) pig model of virulent human rotavirus (HRV) infection”. Virulent human rotavirus infection is not the same as RV vaccination.

[ObPossDup]

I cannot believe I just ran a document compare between the current MMR insert and the Wayback Machine’s 2013 October 21 archived version for the sake of a lazy clod such as Polidori.

You know why there’s one fewer page? No logo on the current version, and the latter’s use of references in braces rather than superscripted note citations. The other changes include the use of ® and ™ rather than footnotes and some modifications in the reference list. Oh, and there’s a font change for the em dash under “How Supplied.”

The only inserted text is “acute disseminated encephalomyelitis (ADEM); transverse myelitis” under nervous system adverse reactions and reference 45, Angel et al.

But “probably the font or the page’s physical length.” Sure thing.

^ Close paren after ‘medium’.

@Antaeus Feldspar

First. Use your real name so we have the chance to see your conflicts of interest. (All of you posting here, supporting the Orac, should be using your real identities).

Science supporters would be more likely to use our real names, as a signifier of our good faith, if we didn’t know for a fact that using your real name around psychopathic cranks (a population without which the antivaccine movement would be missing much of its membership) tends to lead to harassment by said cranks. Speaking of which …

Nothing like having family, friends and co-workers know what you do for a hobby … or a living.

Quod erat demonstrandum. Goofus couldn’t even wait until the next paragraph to reveal that the real reason he wants real names to be revealed to him is so that he can target our friends, our family, our co-workers, and drag them into a fight that has nothing to do with them. It’s a not-so-veiled threat, intended to intimidate people into silence. Instead, its only effect is to demonstrate Goofus’ moral bankruptcy and crude intellect.

Annie’s reference-less, pretending ignorance, illogical rant demonstrates a clear effort to protect the drug industry from the simple truths I posted.

Goofus’ assumption of motive (i.e., “a clear effort to protect the drug industry”) with absolutely no factual basis for that assumption demonstrates that his ability in what psychologists call “reality testing” is negligible.

Annie says – “Wrong explanations frequently are”. I assume Annie means everything in my post. She doesn’t really say, so I have to guess what she means.

Note Goofus’ desire for a double standard. Here is the original exchange: the very first sentence of his very first comment on this thread, followed by my first sentence in my reply to that comment:

It’s so simple.

Wrong explanations frequently are.

As is expected from a grown adult in a discussion between grown adults, I followed the principle of charity. I made the common-sense assumption that, if the very first sentence was “It’s so simple”, “it” would refer to that which Goofus would then proceed to expound (which he did, at length, in at least twenty-seven paragraphs). Goofus expected me, and all readers, to know what he was referring to when he said “it” – and yet pretends that it’s beyond his mental powers to understand that a direct reply to that very sentence just might be about the very same referent, the one which he found “it” sufficient to evoke.

If I had no integrity, and I could somehow believe that it was not beneath my dignity to stoop to specious quibbling that would be given unearned dignity by calling it “nit-picking”, I could have easily used Goofus’ own tiresome techniques on him. “‘It is simple’? How on Earth could ANYONE guess what you mean by ‘it’?? ‘It’ could refer to anything in the entire world! How are we supposed to know which, out of ALL the ideas on the entire page (assuming that we could even trust him to be literally ‘on the same page’ as everyone he expects to undrstand him) Goofus means by ‘it’?? Good God, even if we LIMITED OURSELVES to just his OWN spew, we still have twenty-seven paragraphs of dreck, in any ONE of which this mysterious thing he can only refer to as ‘it’ might be lurking! Obviously, Goofus is TERRIBLE at making himself understood, as proven by my ability to pretend I can’t comprehend him!!”

But that is tiresome and dull, and having proven my point, I do not intend to dignify Goofus’ employment of these puerile and hypocritical tactics by giving them further attention.

Annie says – “Higher than what? And what are being counted as ‘reports’?” –
Annie, apparently, is unfamiliar with, or pretending to be unfamiliar with, VAERS.

I will have to quote Randall Munroe on this: “Communicating badly and then acting smug when you’re misunderstood is not cleverness.” By “reports”, Goofus could have meant “case reports entered through VSD”, “reports entered into VAERS”, “reports offered on anti-vaccine Facebook groups”, or something else entirely. Is it clear which he meant? No. Is his smug declaration of points scored, because he was asked for clarification of his vagueness, appropriate behavior for an adult in a mature discussion? No.

Since “reports” is now clarified as “reports to VAERS”, my statement that “reporting is going to go up and down greatly according to factors that have nothing to do with actual causation” certainly applies, as I believe it would for anything except “case reports entered through VSD”. Is anyone actually naive enough to believe that when the newspaper headlines were full of Andrew Wakefield’s fraudulent study purporting to have found a meaningful association between MMR and autism, it didn’t result in more reports to VAERS?

I’m going to take the liberty of reproducing in its entirety, with added emphasis, a certain lengthy passage of text from http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index :

VAERS is a passive reporting system, meaning that reports about adverse events are not automatically collected, but require a report to be filed to VAERS. VAERS reports can be submitted voluntarily by anyone, including healthcare providers, patients, or family members. Reports vary in quality and completeness. They often lack details and sometimes can have information that contains errors.

“Underreporting” is one of the main limitations of passive surveillance systems, including VAERS. The term, underreporting refers to the fact that VAERS receives reports for only a small fraction of actual adverse events. The degree of underreporting varies widely. As an example, a great many of the millions of vaccinations administered each year by injection cause soreness, but relatively few of these episodes lead to a VAERS report. Physicians and patients understand that minor side effects of vaccinations often include this kind of discomfort, as well as low fevers. On the other hand, more serious and unexpected medical events are probably more likely to be reported than minor ones, especially when they occur soon after vaccination, even if they may be coincidental and related to other causes.

A report to VAERS generally does not prove that the identified vaccine(s) caused the adverse event described. It only confirms that the reported event occurred sometime after vaccine was given. No proof that the event was caused by the vaccine is required in order for VAERS to accept the report. VAERS accepts all reports without judging whether the event was caused by the vaccine.

DISCLAIMER: Please note that VAERS staff follow-up on all serious and other selected adverse event reports to obtain additional medical, laboratory, and/or autopsy records to help understand the concern raised. However, in general coding terms in VAERS do not change based on the information received during the follow-up process. VAERS data should be used with caution as numbers and conditions do not reflect data collected during follow-up. Note that the inclusion of events in VAERS data does not imply causality.

Anyone who wishes to examine VAERS data must assert that they have read and understood that text on the limitations of VAERS reports. Anyone who actually has understood that text would understand why you can’t simply say “Reporting has gone up (over some unstated time period) and that must mean that actual causation has gone up!”

I could speculate on whether Goofus’ failure is one of understanding or of honesty, but truth be told, it doesn’t matter. He is choosing to assert that the VAERS data proves his beliefs on causation; VAERS itself says the data does not imply causality. PROTIP: When the very source of your data says “you can’t make these assumptions about the data”, and your argument makes exactly those assumptions about the data, your argument is dead in the water.

I posted – “The bloggers here try to pretend that everything is okay, so that the true harm is kept hidden and the vast wealth accumulated by drug companies, executives and CEOs is protected from paying for the injuries and deaths known to be caused by their products.”

Annie says – “Pulled straight out of your ass with not a whit of care whether it corresponds to reality. Got it.”

Annie never uses a single reference to refute anything I have posted.

Goofus would like to pretend he didn’t insert, and isn’t responsible for, that “so that” clause which makes an allegation he has absolutely no evidence to support. The question is not “can we come up with a reference to refute his crazy conspiracy theory under which commenters here are agreeing with the position held by over 99.9% of the medical and scientific community of the world because we’re paid to do so?” because there’s no reason to give credence to that conspiracy theory in the first place.

He cannot deny that he made that accusation, and by making it, he showed himself to be deeply dishonest. Then he showed himself to be clearly sociopathic when he first claimed we should be using our real names, and then made clear that what he intended to do with any names revealed to him was to harass our friends, families and co-workers. Why he believes that, if he continues to talk, it’ll somehow convince people to think a word he said could ever be trusted, is a testament to his lack of self-awareness.

Good points, Kreb, thanks. Still, probiotics were used in conjunction with vaccination and were effective in reducing injury. I realize it’s not direct evidence, but it’s in the ballpark.

Here’s another interesting gnotobiotic pig study published last month:
http://www.gutpathogens.com/content/6/1/39
“Several relevant issues that were not resolved in the present study will be addressed in future studies. These include (a) the effect of vaccination on the gut microbiota.”

These studies are demonstrating the importance of microbes in avoiding injury. Future studies may be designed to discover how certain microbes may interact with vaccines to dysregulate immunity. Or injury may also be result of missing key protective microbes such as lactobacillus and bifidobacteria.
“Imbalance in gut microbiota population may render the intestinal mucosa susceptible to injuries, infections, inflammation, abnormal digestion, immune imbalance, immune reaction and cross reaction in other tissues including the brain.”
“E. coli bacteria is able to enter the intestinal cells, change the actin dynamics, modulate the immune response and disrupt the tight junctions, leading to a compromised barrier and increased intestinal permeability resulting in diarrhea[54].”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4123375/

Kreb, if you’re not surprised “that both prebiotics and probiotics increase immune response to vaccines,” then I doubt you’d be surprised to learn flora is responsible for doubling antibodies in response to rubella vaccination in Somali immigrants.

Sending a dozen gnotobiotic pigs to Narad’s home for study.

All of you posting here, supporting the Orac, should be using your real identities

MICHAEL POLIDORI MAKES THE RULES. RESPECT HIS AUTHORITY.

GET YOUR OWN BLOG MICHAEL POLIDORI AND SET YOUR OWN RULES.

At this point it takes a bit of imagination, Kreb. Consider the fact we still don’t understand the true mechanism behind many important drugs; we just know they work, aspirin included.

Uhhh…no. Aspirin inhibits both isoforms of the enzyme cyclooxygenase (COX! and COX2), preventing the conversion of arachadonic acid into prostaglandins which are pro-inflamatory and u-regulating the production of lipoxins, most of which are anti-inflammatory.

I knew this off the top of my head, but seriously–two minutes spent on a google search would have prevented you from making such a fundamental error in the first two sentences of your post..

Hi Narad,
It’s me again. Apparently the FDA tells the public one thing and the actual biologics industry something a little different, hard to believe I know. Here’s your comments from a while back to me when I mentioned that drug/vaccine manufacturers don’t have to claim GRAS excipient ingredients, which can include legume oils.

Narad
October 2, 2014
You’re a fυcking moron. GRAS has nothing to do with biologics labeling, genius. Have you ever noticed that sucrose is listed.
#72 Narad
October 2, 2014
Here, fυckwit. It’s all been heard over and over before.

After a little digging, here’s what the IPEC has to say about it, the International Pharmaceutical Excipient Council. Hardly an antivax site.

How are new excipients permitted for use in U.S. drug products? Would the procedure be similar in the case of a previously allowed (GRAS) excipient for a new pharmaceutical use?

As noted in the answer to the previous question, data supporting the safety and functionality of an excipient in a drug product is included in data and clinical reports submitted to support a new drug application (NDA). In the case of a new pharmaceutical use for an excipient, it is likely that some necessary data may exist in a confidential drug master file at FDA. However, in all instances involving pharmaceutical use, FDA will require an applicant to provide data demonstrating that 1) the excipient is safe in the amount it will be used or consumed in the finished drug throughout the product’s recommended or prescribed duration of use by those who will take the product. In addition, the applicant must 2) demonstrate that the substance meets applicable compendial standards where they apply; 3) that it performs its intended function in the product; that it 4) does not adversely affect the bioavailability and performance of the active drug; and 5) is manufactured in accordance with appropriate standards of good manufacturing practice suitable to that kind of excipient. Still, as noted earlier, there is no FDA regulatory approval system that is exclusively applicable to pharmaceutical excipients. Thus, the scope and amount of necessary data to support a substance or its use always must be negotiated with FDA and will be determined on a case by case basis.

Would you like the Pharmatech study that compares the reference standards of monogram excipient oils such as almond, peanut and soybean?

You would be better off claiming that injecting peanut oil excipients is not responsible for peanut allergies than pretending that it is not happening.

You would be better off claiming that injecting peanut oil excipients is not responsible for peanut allergies than pretending that it is not happening.

And your evidence that it is happening, such that it would be necesary to pretend that it was not, would be….what exactly, Stu?

Be specific.

I’m not sure how Stu is making that particular leap of logic, since it is universally known that peanut oil is not & has not ever been utilized in things like vaccines available for public use.

Lawrence
Are you including adjuvant 65-4 when you make that statement. It was developed in the 60’s and used and studied until at least the mid 70’s.

So your statement “has not ever” is a little dubious. Excipients are used in all vaccine manufacturing, are you contending that you have proof that peanut oil has never been used in any of them?

Stu:

Would you like the Pharmatech study that compares the reference standards of monogram excipient oils such as almond, peanut and soybean?

Yes please.

You would be better off claiming that injecting peanut oil excipients is not responsible for peanut allergies than pretending that it is not happening.

Citation needed. Your comment does not show that that is happening. In fact, it doesn’t even show that it could be happening.

You’re kinda missing the point. Vaccine manufacturers don’t have to disclose excipients, so there is no proof. Only evidence of the result.

Your previous comments do not support your conjecture that vaccine manufacturers don’t have to disclose excipients.
I must insist that you provide proof that peanut oil is being used as an adjuvant.

I was addressing the contention that undisclosed peanut oil excipient use is highly likely.

Nothing you have said proves that.

Excipients are used in all vaccine manufacturing, are you contending that you have proof that peanut oil has never been used in any of them?

Lawrence doesn’t need to prove that they haven’t, you have to prove that they have, and nothing you have said rises to the standard of evidence.

That would be the same adjuvant 65-4 that was never licensed in the US and never used in vaccines approved in the US, right?

Don’t you think those ingredients might create some kind of allergic/autoimmune response?

I know of no evidence that any of these have been shown to cause autoimmune reactions. I do know of evidence that egg proteins may cause reactions in individuals with allergies to eggs (which is why the FDA< CDC and the manufacturers of vaccines containing these proteins reccomend those individuals not receive them.

Certainly in the absence of any evidence a particular excipient, adjuvant or trace ingredient causs allergic or autoimmune reactions there's no reason to think they might-

So, got any?

You’re kinda missing the point. Vaccine manufacturers don’t have to disclose excipients, so there is no proof.

Which means that your insistance that any vaccine contains peanut oil as an excipients is wholly speculative. Agreed?

It would be like trying to prove there’s a bullet in the chamber in Russian Roulette. Only the evidence afterwards tends to prove it.

And your “evidence afterward” demonstrating vaccines contain peanut oil would be–what, exactly? Be specific.

BTW, you do understand that–by definition–vaccine adjuvants do not qualify as excipients?

The FDA defines excipients as generally inert substances added to a drug formulation as a diluent, vehicle, bulking agent or to produce desired consistency.

Adjuvants aren’t inert: they’re defined as substances added to a drug formulation to enable or improve the activity of that formulation’s active ingredient or ingredients.

So even if you were correct, and manufacturers wouldn’t have to list peanut oil if it were present as an excipient, they would still be required to list it if it were included as an adjuvant.

Never mind. It was this thread.

Is this the same Stu who flounced off in comment #74? The same Stu who thinks that anti-diphtheria serum is a vaccine?

Stu, please click on the links in herr doktor bimler’s comment at #43 and Narad’s comment at #65. Your claims have already been refuted.

Keith,

At this point it takes a bit of imagination, Kreb. Consider the fact we still don’t understand the true mechanism behind many important drugs; we just know they work, aspirin included.

Science doesn’t know everything, but that doesn’t give us free rein to fill in the gaps with stuff we simply make up using our imagination. As JGC pointed out, we do know how aspirin works. I have lost count of how many times I have seen it claimed that we don’t as a justification for using CAM treatments that have no evidence to support them.

So, we know the right microbes prevent injury

I don’t think you have demonstrated this. You found studies that showed probiotics reduce diarrhea in a virulent rotavirus infection, which is not related to vaccine injury.

and increase immune response to vaccination.

Agreed.

Therefore, might it be possible the wrong mix of microbes lead to injury via dysregulating immune response to vaccination? It doesn’t take much imagination to realize when protective microbes are missing, the body is prone to injury.

Prone to injury from a virulent wild gastrointestinal infection, yes. From a parenteral vaccine or an attenuated oral vaccine? I see no evidence remotely suggesting that.

Have you heard of environmental enteropathy? Vaccines such as polio are known to fail because of this form of gut dysbiosis:

From your first link:

The cause of EE is postulated to be inflammation from continuous fecal-oral exposure to enteropathogens.

I don’t think you can equate “continuous fecal-oral exposure to enteropathogens” to gut dysbiosis. I also don’t think EE is common in the developed world.

Vaccines are ineffective in gut dysbiosis because they rely on flora for immune response. Diarrhea not required. We used to think the problem was malnutrition, only recently acknowledging malabsorption syndrome due to poor sanitation.

Vaccine failure due to chronic exposure to enteropathogens is not the same as vaccine injury in the developed world where we have good hygiene. Outbreaks of infection from drinking water are relatively rare in the developed world, though perhaps more common in the US where many people still have their own wells which can get contaminated with sewage and the water is untreated.

We can’t simply blame vaccines for vaccine injury.

There may be more to learn about vaccine injury, and gut flora may (or may not) be involved. However, conflating vaccine failure with vaccine injury is a mistake.

Herr Doktor
Where was I refuted? narad’s word search? that was a farce and proved exactly what I said. And your statement that it wasn’t a vaccine? Ok, then I will refer to it as a immunization.

The fact is that the words describe serum sickness from attempted immunizations.

And your statement that it wasn’t a vaccine? Ok, then I will refer to it as a immunization.

You could do that, if you really want to demonstrate ignorance and your refusal to look up the meanings of words.

I paste nothing from smartvax. I’ve only posted scientific studies and pharmaceutical industry websites.

Herr Doktor you guys claim one thing like GRAS doesn’t pertain to biologics, I refute it from industry publications and you call it BS.

You discuss like a child

I paste nothing from smartvax. I’ve only posted scientific studies and pharmaceutical industry websites.

Can I ask which scientific study was the source for your comment #39?

The terms “allergy” and “anaphylaxis” were created following a strange illness that affected up to 50% of vaccinated children at the close of the 1800s. This illness was simply called “serum sickness” and followed the first mass administration of diphtheria anti-toxin sera. Austrian pediatrician Clemens von Pirquet studied the illness at length and observed that the symptoms of this sickness resembled those in people who were hypersensitive to pollens and bee stings. To better describe this ‘altered reactivity’ to the sera he created the Latin derived word allergy in 1906.

Because (let me google that for you) it reads a lot like a post at SmartVax:

The terms “allergy” and “anaphylaxis” were created following a strange illness that affected up to 50% of vaccinated children at the close of the 1800s. This illness was simply called “serum sickness” and followed the first mass administration of diphtheria anti-toxin sera. Austrian pediatrician Clemens von Pirquet studied the illness at length and observed that the symptoms of this sickness resembled those in people who were hypersensitive to pollens and bee stings. To better describe this ‘altered reactivity’ to the sera he created the Latin derived word allergy in 1906.

And your statement that it wasn’t a vaccine? Ok, then I will refer to it as a immunization.

Let me explain. Anti-diphtheria serum is horse-, mouse- or rabbit-derived immunoglobulin designed to bind to molecules of the diphtheria toxin and block them so that they will not kill you. It is not a “vaccine” because it does not provide you with your own antibodies to Corynebacterium diphtheriae, and it will not stop you from catching diphtheria again in the future. It is not “immunisation” because it does not provide you with your own antibodies. Any more than an injection of rattlesnake antivenom will protect you from future snake bites.

Let me google it for you.

Engineered spider toxin could be the future of anti-venom vaccines
Date:May 9, 2013

Apparently Science Daily needs a refresher semantics course from you too.

Foodstuffs and Biologics narad. IPEC makes it pretty clear that you were wrong about this.

What part of that smartvax allergy statement are you disagreeing with Herr Doktor?

Apparently Science Daily needs a refresher semantics course from you too.

“Science Daily” is a press release aggregator. It doesn’t have any “semantics.”

The actual paper is here, blockhead. Free clue: You still don’t understand the original point.

Foodstuffs and Biologics narad. IPEC makes it pretty clear that you were wrong about this.

How, jackass? Because they stuck the term “GRAS” in parentheses? It has a gold fυcking plated legal definition.

You are a riot narad. Even proof positive that you were wrong and you still cant admit it. You think Merck/GSK gives a darn what the FDA thinks about their ingredients. IPEC even admits there is no real approval process for excipients and that it is a case by case basis.

Herr Doktor, you can take that up with Pirquet. Somehow I believe him over you.

Even proof positive that you were wrong and you still cant admit it.

Did you miss the part where you were asked where the fυck your “proof positive” said one fυcking thing about not labeling your imaginary GRAS adjuvants?

I mentioned that drug/vaccine manufacturers don’t have to claim GRAS excipient ingredients

Let me google that for you:
http://www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB/document_library/Scientific_guideline/2009/09/WC500003412.pdf

Article 54(c) requires that all excipients need to be declared on the labelling if the medicinal product is an injectable or a topical, or an eye preparation

Herr Doktor, you can take that up with Pirquet. Somehow I believe him over you.
When Pirquet’s papers are so explicit that he was studying a reaction to repeated anti-toxin administration and not vaccines, it seems to be a case that you prefer to believe a garbled misunderstanding of Pirquet that you soaked up from Sanevax. But feel free to cite his actual words.