If there’s one thing about having a demanding day job, it’s that the cranks usually have the advantage. They can almost always hit first when a news story comes out that they can spin to attack their detested science. On the other hand, it usually ensures that by the time I get home, have dinner, and settle down in front of the TV with my laptop to discusse the latest bit of science, there’s some tasty crankery to deconstruct.
Oddly enough, tonight appears not to be one of those times. Heck, as of this writing, even that wretched hive of antivaccine scum and quackery, Age of Autism,, doesn’t have anything up about it. Oh, well, never let it be said that something so minor stopped me from discussing science that interested me. I’ll just have to try to find new ways of making it fun and interesting.
So, by now surely you’ve seen the news stories that popped up beginning yesterday morning with headlines like CDC Warning: Flu Viruses Mutate and Evade Current Vaccine and Flu vaccine protects against wrong strain, US health officials warn, Flu shots may not be good match for 2014-15 virus, CDC says, and Health Officials Warn This Year’s Flu Vaccine Won’t Prevent New H3N2 Strain Of Influenza. You get the idea. This year, apparently, the flu vaccine isn’t as effective as health officials would like. How could this have happened.
Those of you who are knowledgeable about the flu vaccine know that, as useful as it is, it’s not one of the greatest vaccines as far as effectiveness. Actually, that’s not true. Its effectiveness can and does vary considerably from year to year. The reason is simple. There are many strains of influenza, and the vaccine as currently formulated generally only covers a handful of strains. Basically, every year the World Health Organization, in collaboration with the CDC and other health organizations throughout the world, has to make an educated guess which strains of influenza will be circulating the following winter. Many months’ lead time is required because vaccine manufacturers require it to develop and test the new formulations and then to ramp up their manufacturing capabilities and distribute the vaccine. Generally, the WHO chooses three strains it deems most likely to cause significant human suffering and death in the coming flu season. Specifically, the chosen strains are the H1N1, H3N2, and Type-B strains thought most likely to cause significant human suffering in the coming season, although, starting with the 2012–2013 Northern Hemisphere influenza season, the WHO has also recommended a second B-strain for use in quadrivalent (four strain) vaccines. Basically, the WHO coordinates the contents of the vaccine each year to contain the most likely strains of the virus to attack the next year. Wikipedia has a helpful article that lists the formulations of all the flu vaccines recommended for the Northern and Southern Hemispheres dating back to 1998, to give you an idea what’s been recommended in the past. Also, there are exceptions. In the 2009-2010 season, for example, the H1N1 pandemic was occurring, and it was recommended that everyone be vaccinated against H1N1 in addition to the normal flu vaccine.
As you can imagine, predicting many months in advance which strains will be circulating in the following flu season is a dicey proposition under the best of circumstances. When the WHO gets it right, the flu vaccine is maximally effective. When it doesn’t, we have a situation in which the vaccine is not as effective as we would like. As this news story relates:
Much of the influenza virus circulating in the United States has mutated and this year’s vaccine doesn’t provide good protection against it, federal health officials are warning.
Flu season’s barely starting, but most cases are being caused by a strain called H3N2 this year, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said in a health warning issued to doctors Wednesday night.
The flu vaccine protects against three or four strains of flu — there’s always a mix of flu viruses going around — and H3N2 is one of them. But the strain of H3N2 infecting most people has mutated and only about half of cases match the vaccine, CDC said.
Basically, all the news stories to which I linked report a the issue in a similar way. One of the major strains in the vaccine is H3N2, a strain that normally circulates in pigs and can cause serious outbreaks. Unfortunately, based on its initial observations and data collection, the CDC has concluded that the H3N2 strain that’s causing most of the disease has undergone what is referred to as “genetic drift,” changes in the genetic makeup of the virus that make them different from the strain used many months ago to determine the recommended formulation. Personally, when I see stories like this, I like to go to the source. When the story is about a scientific study, that source is the original peer-reviewed scientific article. When it’s about something like this, the source is the CDC press release:
So far this year, seasonal influenza A H3N2 viruses have been most common. There often are more severe flu illnesses, hospitalizations, and deaths during seasons when these viruses predominate. For example, H3N2 viruses were predominant during the 2012-2013, 2007-2008, and 2003-2004 seasons, the three seasons with the highest mortality levels in the past decade. All were characterized as “moderately severe.”
Increasing the risk of a severe flu season is the finding that roughly half of the H3N2 viruses analyzed are drift variants: viruses with antigenic or genetic changes that make them different from that season’s vaccine virus. This means the vaccine’s ability to protect against those viruses may be reduced, although vaccinated people may have a milder illness if they do become infected. During the 2007-2008 flu season, the predominant H3N2 virus was a drift variant yet the vaccine had an overall efficacy of 37 percent and 42 percent against H3N2 viruses.
“It’s too early to say for sure that this will be a severe flu season, but Americans should be prepared,” said CDC director Tom Frieden, M.D., M.P.H. “We can save lives with a three-pronged effort to fight the flu: vaccination, prompt treatment for people at high risk of complications, and preventive health measures, such as staying home when you’re sick, to reduce flu spread.”
I can see what’s coming. In fact, I’m very surprised that, as I write this, it hasn’t come already. If there’s one vaccine that antivaccinationists love to hate, it’s the flu vaccine, because, compared to other vaccines, it’s the easiest target, given that it tends not to be as efficacious as many other vaccines. Heck, it’s the vaccine that Bill Maher likes to hate on (or at least show contempt for). Contrary to what antivaccinationists and cranks like Bill Maher would have you believe, the flu vaccine is not dangerous, and it does work. It might not work as well as some vaccines, and, until a universal flu vaccine is developed that targets antigens common to all strains of flu is developed, it never will be. But it’s still worth getting.
No, the flu vaccine is not worthless, but you know that hysterical antivaccine articles claiming that to be the case are coming.
For completeness’ sake, I’ll just mention that the quadrivalent flu vaccine for the 2014-2015 flu season is targeted to these strains:
- A/California/7/2009 (H1N1)pdm09-like virus
- A/Texas/50/2012 (H3N2)-like virus
- B/Massachusetts/2/2012-like virus.
- BBrisbane/60/2008-like virus (only included in some vaccines)
As this story on how this happened relates:
Since Oct. 1, 82% of the influenza virus samples subjected to laboratory testing have been H3N2 viruses, according to data from the CDC. And only 48% of these samples are closely related to the A/Texas/50/2012 strain that was picked for the flu vaccine distributed in North America.
Most of the rest of the H3N2 samples were similar to another strain called A/Switzerland/9715293. That strain was picked for the flu vaccine for the Southern Hemisphere, but not the one here.
Unfortunately, although the “drifted” A/Switzerland/9715293-like (as in genetic drift) strains were detected in late March 2014, after World Health Organization (WHO) recommendations for the 2014-2015 Northern Hemisphere vaccine had been made in mid-February, their prevalence increased enormously by September, by which time it was far too late to reformulate this year’s vaccine:
Health experts charged with monitoring flu viruses first detected strains of the A/Switzerland virus in the U.S. in March, Frieden said. By then, “it was already too late to include them in this season’s vaccine,” he said.
Besides, at that time, the A/Texas strains were still “by far the most common of the H3N2 viruses,” he said. The A/Switzerland strains didn’t appear in large numbers until September, he said.
Twice each year, the World Health Organization issues a recommendation for a flu vaccine — one for the Southern Hemisphere and one for the Northern Hemisphere. This approach gives health planners two opportunities to plan a vaccine.
Putting it all together, what this all means is that the remaining 18% plus the remaining 48% of the H3N2 strains that are close matches to the vaccine H3N2 strain (0.48 x 0.82 = 0.39 or 39%), for a total of 57% constitute a good match for what’s out there. How did this happen this year? The same way it happens on any year when the flu vaccine isn’t as good a match as we would like to the strains circulating: Health officials made the best prediction they could at the time, but the virus changed in the six or seven months between when they had to commit to a formulation of the flu vaccine and the start of the flu season.
Another aspect of this is that it is likely that the H3N2 component of this year’s flu vaccine is still good enough to confer partial immunity to the A/Switzerland/9715293-like strains, so that, while it doesn’t protect against becoming sick by these strains it could make the illness less severe. This is important because the H3N2 strains tend to be associated with severe flu seasons.
Not surprisingly, as I was writing this, a notice popped up in my Google Alerts telling me that everyone’s favorite quack, antivaccinationist (but I repeat myself), and all-purpose conspiracy theorist, Mike Adams, had weighted in under a rather restrained (for him) title, CDC issues flu vaccine apology: this year’s vaccine doesn’t work!, complete with a link to this video:
Contrary to what Gary Franchi of NextNewsNetwork claims, no, the CDC did not just say that the flu vaccine doesn’t work. It really didn’t. It just said that we can expect it to be less effective this year because it’s not as good a match as we would like. What’s with this concrete thinking among quacks? It’s the Nirvana fallacy in action: If a “Western” medical intervention isn’t 100% effective, to them it’s pure, dangerous crap. Funny how they don’t apply that standard to the woo they normally like to pedal.
But back to Mikey. Hilariously, after touting a “story” from a crank news source and criticizing the CDC for supposedly producing a defective vaccine and then selling Tamiflu at a high cost, Adams pivots to promoting his own execrable science. Truly the man is without self-awareness:
Mercury tests conducted on vaccines at the Natural News Forensic Food Lab have revealed a shockingly high level of toxic mercury in an influenza vaccine (flu shot) made by GlaxoSmithKline (lot #9H2GX). Tests conducted via ICP-MS document mercury in the Flulaval vaccine at a shocking 51 parts per million, or over 25,000 times higher than the maximum contaminant level of inorganic mercury in drinking water set by the EPA.(1)
The tests were conducted via ICP-MS using a 4-point mercury calibration curve for accuracy. Even then, the extremely high level of mercury found in this flu shot was higher than anything we’ve ever tested, including tuna and ocean fish which are known for high mercury contamination.
In fact, the concentration of mercury found in this GSK flu shot was 100 times higher than the highest level of mercury we’ve ever tested in contaminated fish. And yet vaccines are injected directly into the body, making them many times more toxic than anything ingested orally. As my previous research into foods has already documented, mercury consumed orally is easily blocked by eating common foods like strawberries or peanut butter, both of which bind with and capture about 90% of dietary mercury.
This was, of course, one of the silliest things Adams ever did with his new toy (his mass spectrometer), as I had considerable fun relating here.
Adams then goes on to tick off a litany of antivaccine lies, using a typical antivaccine technique known as “argument by package insert.” The central fallacy of such an argument is that package inserts are legal documents, not so much scientific documents, and are thus hyper-conservative in listing any reaction that’s ever been reported after a drug or vaccine, whether there is good scientific reason to believe that reaction is due to the vaccine or drug or not. He trots out the old claimed link with Guillain-Barre syndrome that is almost certainly not real. He even trots out the formaldehyde and toxin gambit!
It all builds up to a crescendo of Mike Adams crazy belied by the relatively tame (for him) title of his post:
Trusting a flu shot made by a corporation of felons is a lot like trusting the purity of heroin you buy from a street dealer. Both flu shots and street heroin have at least one thing in common, by the way: neither has ever been tested for safety.
We also know that flu shots contain neurotoxic chemicals and heavy metals in alarming concentrations. This is irrefutable scientific fact. We also know that there is no “safe” form of mercury just like there is no safe form of heroin — all forms of mercury are highly toxic when injected into the body (ethyl, methyl, organic, inorganic).
The only people who argue with this are those who are already mercury poisoned and thus incapable of rational thought. Mercury damages brain function, you see, which is exactly what causes some people to be tricked into thinking vaccines are safe and effective.
Technically, you’d have to be stupid to believe such a thing, as the vaccine insert directly tells you precisely the opposite.
Mikey, Mikey, Mikey…at least he always entertains. No one can quite reach the spittle-flecked faux outrage with such hyperbole, with the possible exception of his mentor Alex Jones. But notice the inherent sucking up to his audience. He (and, by extension, those who believe him) are not “sheeple”! They’re not “brain-damaged” by mercury! Oh, no! Only they understand and avoid the evil pharma cabal. Everyone else is a mercury-damaged sheeple.
This year’s flu vaccine might well be suboptimal. Unfortunately, until there is a universal vaccine that targets parts of the virus that don’t mutate so rapidly, the flu vaccine will always be suboptimal. Of course, companies and scientists are frantically working on just such a vaccine. If it weren’t so incredibly hard to do, they would have produced one already. In the meantime the flu vaccine, as imperfect as it is, is the best we have, and it is still very much worth receiving because the flu still can kill healthy individuals.
1,372 replies on “No, the CDC did not just apologize and admit that this year’s flu vaccine doesn’t work”
Couple questions.
(1) Is this the same flu shot that 14 people died shortly after receiving in Italy?
(2) Isn’t there a possibility that vaccination with this flu shot (or any flu shot), while it might protect you from the strains it was intended for, may actually make you more susceptible to other strains, a phenomenon sometimes associated with “Original Antigenic Sin”? As shown, for example, in
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19440239
Do you mean the flu shot shortly after which four elderly people died (as elderly people are wont to do) – out of around 4 million shots, the one which has now been promptly investigated and shown to be unrelated to those deaths?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30316113
Probably.
Speaking from experience, Mike?
A perfect analogy, showing how little Mike know..
Heroin is used in low doses as a painkiller, notably in the UK hospitals.
Apparently, using small doses of something dangerous at high doses is relatively safe. Who would have thought it?
@Nat – that particular Flu shot is only used in Europe & it only indicated for high-risk / elderly individuals (and yes, as Rebecca pointed out, the shots have been cleared as a cause – especially given that at least one of those individuals died of a ruptured aorta).
And to your second question, that study involved Mice & has not been shown to be replicated in humans.
I’m curious about his definition of “many times”, since about 95% of orally ingested methylmercury gets absorbed through the intestinal tract.
As for his strawberry/peanut butter binding claim, I’d like to see a study showing that eating those foods at the same time as your tuna fish sandwich (blech) would lead to binding of the mercury in the tuna such that it gets excreted rather than absorbed.
Wouldn’t you think that a commenter would not post a study of lab mice, published during 2009, when the topic of Orac’s blog is the update from the CDC, about weekly confirmed cases of influenza in humans?
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/
Todd W. I read columns and posts from the brain trust at AoA, that the increase in peanut allergies is directly attributed to the number of vaccines on the CDC Recommended Childhood Vaccine Schedule.
One polite gentleman (no irony this time) on the comments threads already used the “CDC said the flu shots are worthless” claim. The problem is that given what the regular media was doing with this, there are more sources for this around, including some that are not anti-vaccine. It’s good to have the rebuttals. Thank you.
@lilady
Oh, I know. They also make the false claim that vaccines contain peanut oil.
I can just see it now, some crank will claim that peanut butter binds to mercury, and because some people have an allergy to thimerosal, this will result in them also developing a peanut allergy. I know it doesn’t make sense to people who understand science and reality, but cranks aren’t that well-versed in logic.
I caught wind of this yesterday when nurse told me it was just on the news that the flu vaccine does not work this year.
So I aksed her which age groups? against matched or mis matched strains? Inactived or live attenuated? Of course the news did go into details.
It will be interesting to know.
Hopefully LAIV gives good cross immunity as most of my patents opt for it over IIV.
BTW yes the nurse has had her flu shot
@Rob Cordes, DO
Well, as René put it over at Epidemiological, you have five major opportunities to get the flu this year (two B strains, H1N1, A/Texas/H3N2 and A/Switzerland/H3N2), and the vaccine will protect pretty well against four of those, and may give some cross-protection against the fifth, for a milder course of illness than without the vaccine.
Whilst AoA doesn’t address the question of this year’s flu vaccine, it does provide amusement from other bad science ( and political speculation):
Dachel offers Stephanie Seneff’s quote, “.. by 2025, one in two children will be autistic” and an article that considers the vicissitudes of that outcome. Further discussion with Seneff explicates her beliefs about causation- vaccines and glyphosate are the most likely culprits. AND she’s from MIT**
Kent Heckenlively produces further variations upon his habituated theme:
brave freedom fighters/ superheroes or suchlike battle the entrenched evil empire. Reading Attkisson’s new book ( in addition to his own obviously) has led him to declare that soon all of these small defiant groups will gather together and confront their enemy and ” bring down their empire of lies”
I think Kent missed his calling: writing scripts or storylines for ( respectively) bad action films or crappy comics..
** isn’t it hilarious when alties applaud people from well known institutions ( universities, periodicals, governmental agencies) when they agree with their woo but castigate the same places when they disagree as being part of the cartel?
And Mikey now offers hope to those made stupid by the establishment’s poisons or poisonous lies or whatever:
he has a free course in amping up your “cognition” ( which I -btw- listened to nearly half ) and it’s all about cleaning up toxins and filling up on supernutrition. And becoming more spiritual.
Nurses Who Vaccinate have also addressed this rumor:
Skeptical Raptor has a cute and accurate flowchart on who needs a flu vaccine. (Hint: everybody over 6 months old who has not medical contraindications.)
[…] here’s another article on it on Science […]
No, it is not: that vaccine is adminsitered only in Europe and for a specific population (those at high risk or elderly). Note that the deaths appeared to correlate only to one or two specific lots of that vaccine, and that these lots have been examined and found not to be defective. Not also (more critically) that no causal association has been found between vaccination with these lots and the deaths which followeed.
Possible? Perhaps, but I think the more germane question is whether it would be likely . The only instance I’m aware of where previous vaccination against a different strain resulted ina measurable decrease in antigenic responses to the circulating flu strain was in the 2009 H1N1 pandemic, in individuals vaccinated against the strain A/Brisbane/59/2007 (H1N1) within the 3 months prior to being infected by the Pandemic H1N1/09 virus.
PMCID: PMC3165229
And of course, you’d be sacrificing protection against the other strains in the vaccine which are well matched (plus the protection against the almost 50% of circulating H3N2 strains which are a good match) if you chose to eschew vaccination becuase of concerns over this ‘original sin’.
Re Helianthus #3: You don’t even need to go to the UK prescription example. Heroin is no more inherently dangerous than any drug which one can overdose from. If you take too large a dose (which mostly happens due to uncertain purity from street dealers where better than expected purity is a killer) you can OD and potentially die. Just like just about every other drug. This is how there is a sizeable community of long-term heroin users who don’t drop dead randomly. (much like there are people on other opiates/opioids for long periods due to chronic pain management).
Am I math challenged this morning? Seems to mean 18% plus 48% equals 67%, not 57%.
82% of the circulating strains right now are H3N2. This year’s vaccine is only a good match for 48% of those H3N2 strains. That’s makes up 39% of the total strains. Add to that the 18% of the total strains that not H3N2 and thus still a good match, and you have 57%. Or am I missing something here?
Pharma shill author. Witting or unwitting. Makes no difference. It is obvious by the language.
And not very long after that three in every two children will be autistic, I I remember the graphs.
@Liz Ditz, for completion, so has About Pediatrics: http://pediatrics.about.com/od/inthenews/tp/Pediatric-News-and-Alerts.htm
As far as original antigenic sin you are off the mark. That is when there is an antigenic shift. This is an antigenic drift.
I am sure you rocket scientists have never done all of research study on the anomalies of the new vaccine schedules. I’m sure it’s just a coincidence that as the scheduled amount of childhood vaccines went from 10 vaccines by the age of 4 in 1983, to more than 30 by the age of 4 in 2014. And with this statistical insignificant fact that the rate of autism, auto-immune diseases and severe allergies has skyrocketed. Where are the studies on bombarding a developing immune system with 6-10 different vaccines on the same doctors visit? Move along sheep!! Here are some facts for the”science” based herd straight from the CDC website. See where it says formaldehyde, aluminum, etc….
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm
Or the amount of $2,857,926,807.60 that has been paid out because of adverse reactions to vaccines! Facts found here!!
http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statisticsreports.html
JGC @20: I think it’s 120%, actually.
And Dr. Bob Sears chimes in. Sigh. https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=809888069049679&id=116317855073374&fref=nf
@ JGC:
@ JP:
AND after that, the evil toxins will reach back in time and turn all of the non-autistic adults into autistic children,
Chilling, isn’t it?
I don’t see a byline on this article. Who wrote it?
Mike Adams does sign his work, at least.
I did not see the mercury charge addressed in this article, either.
Why not?
Also, how is the efficacy of flu vaccine tested?
Or do we just ‘take their word’ that it’s effective?
Hyperbole…. As I read the article from Mike and this article, I think the hyperbole quotient is similar. It’s funny when you read the comments too. The voicings are the same. They just have a different view. Both equally convinced that the other side are idiots. Polarization for the sake of having your argument heard.
@Mark
I’m sure you’ve done studies to rule out the increased presence of personal computers in homes over the past several decades. In 1983, few homes had a personal computer. Now, almost every home has one. And the prevalence of autism has increased over the same period. Where are the studies looking at this? Or the studies looking at the correlation between autism rates and the increased consumption of organic produce? Wake up, sheep!
@Terry – you will find that the “nutbaggery” is well beyond the pale over at Mike’s….here, at least, science in the word of the day.
@mark
Have you ever heard of the phrase “the dose is the poison?” Because there is a lot more aluminum and formaldehyde in an apple than in a vaccine, unless you’ve learned how to survive without eating food at all. Also the sue of sheeple says a lot about the lack of argument that you have.
@delta1, @terry
Let’s see, at least Orac has actual science behind his views. What science does mikey adams have to back up his assertions? Also, did you miss the title of the blog?
As Lawrence remarks, Mike Adams’ writing is entirely divorced from reality – if you need any convincing merely read his bio @ healthranger.com or his articles @ Natural News.
In addition, he has a STORE (@ Natural News) where he drums up fear of illness hawks supplements, super foods and other products that he shills through his mercenary journalism and faux research.
@Mark, #23, can you show me where the rates of autism as “skyrocketing”? Prevalence is increasing, but prevalence does that with diseases and conditions that are not deadly and have no cure. As a friend once told me, you didn’t have cancer when oncologists were not around, mostly because it wasn’t called cancer. You have all those things now because we’re getting closer to the true prevalence in our population, about 1%-2%, hardly skyrocketing. That, and, you know, plenty of us don’t equate autism with deadly diseases.
@Mark:
Ah yes. The old “Too many Too soon” claim. And you’re wrong. Too many too soon has been investigated and discredited. Also, your claim is old news. Antivaxxers have moved on from that and are now claiming it’s the shots the parents received as children that turned their children autistic.
@Delta1
Here is a description of the testing process that flu vaccines go through. Here are a few examples of how flu vaccines are tested. As you can see, flu vaccines are pretty thoroughly tested. You can get more detailed information directly from the horse’s mouth by searching PubMed.
Hope this helps.
Mark: “Or the amount of $2,857,926,807.60 that has been paid out because of adverse reactions to vaccines! Facts found here!!”
I used to be a rocket scientist, this means I can actually find valid ratios.
Now, take a look at the table titled “National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) Adjudication Categories by Vaccine for Claims Filed Calendar Year 2006 to Present.”
Go to the bottom of it and tell see how many vaccines have been given between 2006 and 2012, it is almost two billion. We can extrapolate to over two billion vaccine doses between 2006 and 2014. Now look at the total number compensated between 2006 and March 2014, it is only 1300.
Now can you tell us what the ratio of the number of doses given to the number was awarded claims? Can you explain what it means? How does it compare to the injuries caused by actually getting a disease? Be sure to show your work.
Delta1: “I don’t see a byline on this article. Who wrote it?”
Look at the title of this article on top of the page. There you will see the ‘nym after the words “Posted by.” Click on it and you will figure out the worst kept secret on the Internet. Consider it a wee intelligence test.
@Mark
FYI, these are the types of anomalies rocket scientists deal with.
I see my problem–I was doing simple arithmetric–adding 45 and 18–and not accounting for the fact that the vaccine is a match for less than 100% of the circulating strains.
I’d blame lack of sleep, if I could only remember what that word (sleep) means…
Unsurprisingly, a much better way to generate OAS is by contracting influenza itself.
In any event, the mouse study (the ferret version would have been a better choice) isn’t an example of OAS: H3N2 and H5N1, obviously, aren’t closely related. What one has here isn’t so much a recommendation against H3N2 vaccination as a recommendation for inoculation with H3N2 virus on the off chance that human-to-human transmissible H5N1 will pop up overnight with no tradeoff in virulence.
One point that is worth considering is that this year’s vaccine strains are the same as last year’s vaccine strains. Even if this year’s flu strains matched the vaccine strains, that fact would make this year’s vaccine less useful, in terms of the number needed to treat to prevent one respiratory infection, for anyone who was vaccinated last year. Immune response to flu antigens does not vanish into nothing after a mere twelve months, so there is carryover protection. My husband got vaccinated both of the last two years, and this year he not only had a particularly severe two-day bout of his usual fever and body ache, but a red, warm, swollen area 8 cm wide at the injection site. Maybe that’s evidence that he still had plenty of immunity left and would have been better off avoiding the cost and discomfort.
It turns out that it’s not unusual for two years’ vaccines to be identical or functionally identical. This information can be found online, and in future we’ll factor it into health care decision-making. If the costs and harms of an intervention are not zero, it is not logically the case that any benefit above zero justifies it for all persons. The lower the expected benefit at any given time, the lower the costs have to be to make it worthwhile.
What anomlies are you speaking of? Be specific.
Actually it’s simply a function of developing, over time, vaccines which affect additional infectious diseases, in much the same way we went from having one or two effective antibiotics to (penicillin, sulfanilamide) to having multiple effective antibiotics.
Borked block quote!
Keep in mind that the first three pages here (PDF) are the sum total of Seneff’s “prediction.”
Haha, Stephanie Seneff. I originally came across this blog when looking for help debunking a really dumb “glyphosate causes every disease ever” article that people were waving all over Facebook. The only “study” it actually linked to was this one, by Seneff. The best part of it is that she claims that the “mechanism” by which glyphosate causes everything from cancer to depression to autism is “endogenous semiotic entropy,” which is literally nonsense. Word freakin’ salad.
Sorry, “exogenous semiotic entropy.” Either way, it’s nonsense.
@jane
That’s not actually true. Some of the strains are the same, some are different.
The 2013-2014 seasonal vaccine included:
* A/California/7/2009 (H1N1)-like virus;
* (H3N2) virus antigenically like the cell-propagated prototype virus A/Victoria/361/2011;
* B/Massachusetts/2/2012-like virus.
Some 2013-2014 vaccines also had B/Brisbane/60/2008-like virus.
This year for the 2014-2015 flu season, the vaccine contains:
* A/California/7/2009 (H1N1)pdm09-like virus;
* A/Texas/50/2012 (H3N2)-like virus;
* B/Massachusetts/2/2012-like virus.
Some also contain B/Brisbane/60/2008-like virus.
The A/H3N2 portion is different from last year’s formulation. That makes it worth it to get it again this year, since H3N2 tends to be responsible for more serious disease.
Sir, you are a quack!
Mike Adams’ writing is entirely divorced from reality
Reality took out a restraining order against him.
Orac said:
” Mikey, Mikey, Mikey…… No one can quite reach the spittle- flecked faux outrage…. Alex Jones”
OH I don’t know about that! I think that Gary Null may be even worse- plus he’s been at it for longer and he produces longer written, spoken and filmed rants.
As a matter of fact, he’s got a new docu-drama premiering today called ‘Poverty, Inc” ** that was reviewed by the New York Times.
** these clever titles! Not the first time he’s used that formula
@ herr doctor bimler:
Cognition should do the same
This is my first time visiting your blog page. Since you’re a scientist who seems to understand how vaccines work and what goes into them, would you mind telling me what exactly goes into a vaccine other than the viruses themselves.
Maybe he just needs some Universal Reconnection.
@Narad
My reactions to those slides ranged from “That’s vaguely plausable” through “No, we know the symptoms of that are not like what you’ve described” through “Total facepalm.” But at least there’s that laugh at the end where she wasn’t able to find any toxicological studies about glyphosate.
The change was just because A/Victoria/361/2011 had pooped out from egg culturing. A/Texas/50/2012 is antigenetically similar.
^ Ah, antigenically, that is.
The human body produces and deals with more formaldehyde daily, as the result of normal (and necessary) biochemical processes such as amino acid demethylation, than it could ever be exposed to as a consequence of routine vaccination.
For example, in a newborn the normal circulating formaldehyde concentration is roughly 2 to 3 ug per mL of blood, with a total blood volume of between 230 to 280 mL. That works out to between 460 and 840 ug total formaldehyde.
The hepatitis B vaccine given at birth will expose them to an addition 7.5 ug of formaldehyde, an increase of a whopping 0.9 to 1.6%.
For children other than newborns, the impact is of course far, far less significant. By the age of 6 if they complied with the recommended vaccination schedule they could be exposed to a grand total of about 1,800 ug of formaldehyde. The average six-year-old child weighs about 21 kg with a blood volume of about 1.5L, containing between 3,000 to 4,600 ug of circulating formaldehyde.
Six years’ worth of formaldehyde from routine vacinations is less significantly less that the formaldehyde a six year child’s body handles every minute of every day with no harmful effects.
All together now: the dose makes the poison.
In case you’re wondering about the influx of newbies, some of whom appear to be repeating antivaccine tropes, some of whom simply don’t know some basics about vaccines, a high traffic Facebook page appears to have picked this post up, and I’m getting a lot of traffic seemingly from that one Facebook page. I can’t tell what it is from the referring URLs. In any case, traffic per hour is running about 5-6x normal right now. It appears to be peaking; so I expect it to start drifting back down towards normal soon. How soon and how fast it will do so, I have no idea. Hopefully not real soon and not real fast. 🙂
It would be funny if it were an antivaccine page that sent all this traffic to me, thus ensuring my traffic-based reimbursement produces additional sufficient filthy pharma lucre to buy perhaps a nice bottle of Macallan 12 year single malt scotch for Christmas enjoyment.
If natphilosopher’s website (comment #1) is any guide, he or she is an independent fact-based thinker, a lonely lighthouse of rationality in a world overrun with conformity and groupthink. So I am confident that fact-based details will be provided shortly about those “14 people [who] died shortly after receiving [a flu shot] in Italy”.
I was SHOCKED to discover that
(a) A bottom-tier wesite of hard-right social / religious conservative loons by the name of Townhall had picked up on the farcical Kenyan-bishops-against-vaccination “sekrit sterilisation” bullsh1t;
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/christinerousselle/2014/11/09/kenyan-bishops-accuse-who-and-unicef-of-implementing-a-population-control-program-n1916311
and
(b) Natphilosopher cites this toxic Townhall to pimp the same thoroughly discredited unstory. Good choice of sources, dude!
Mom of Three (#51):
This is my first time visiting your blog page.
Then you might want to start by looking at the ‘Search” box at the top right corner of the page, before making yourself stupid with off-topic demands.
Mom of Three: ” Since you’re a scientist who seems to understand how vaccines work and what goes into them, would you mind telling me what exactly goes into a vaccine other than the viruses themselves.”
Here are some useful resources:
http://www.virology.ws/influenza-101/
I would encourage you to listen to the podcast by the virologist who did that course, you can find it at http://www.twiv.tv/ .
Also read the biography of Maurice Hilleman by Dr. Paul Offit, Vaccinated. Plus you might try the two major books about the 1918 Influenza Pandemic, first try Flu: The Story Of The Great Influenza Pandemic of 1918 by Gina Kolata and The Great Influenza: The Story of the Deadliest Pandemic in History by John Barry.
You see, it is a bit more complicated than what can be gleaned from a blog comment. If you were really interested you would have been able to find appropriate literature at you local library, and perhaps even taken some basic college biology, chemistry and statistics classes.
Oh, I forgot another good resource for “Mom of Three”:
http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/different-types-vaccines
First point: vaccines do not neceesarily contain live attentuated or killed viruses: most vaccines developed today are acellular vaccines that instead contain than viral proteins or small peptide sections of viral proteins.
In addition to the antigens themselves, vaccine formulations typically will contain trace materials at very low levels remaining behind from the manufacturing processes(e.g., formaldehyde and ovalbumin). They also contain deliberate additions that fall into roughly two classes: adjuvants which promote a stronger immune response to the antigens, and other excipients which may not be biologically active following inkection but confer other benefits: stabilizers, preservatives, buffering agents to maintain a desired pH, etc.
@Carolyn Moore:
Given that you’re a Young Living “distributor” on the side from your day job, that’s a lot of irony.
Then again, given that day job, this is just pathetic.
@Mom of Three
The FDA has a nice page describing common vaccine ingredients and why they are used. For the complete list of all ingredients in the vaccine, see section 11 of the package insert. Most of the vaccines we’re talking about in this thread are listed on this page. You should be able to find the ingredients list there.
@carolyn
Care to point out where do you think Orac is a quack? Or are you used to spouting out insults when faced with actual science.
Given your day job selling supplements, I assume you probably have to resort to insults because anything rational would take away from your business.
For a good discussion of the how and why the flu shot has variable efficacy, I’d like to suggest Mark Crislip’s Quackcast 20. If you haven’t heard it, it’s well worth it. Because the world needs more Mark Crislip.
http://www.pusware.com/quackcast/quackcast20.mp3
Who wrote this?
“Who wrote this?”
It looks like someone named Nancy wrote this. Why do you ask?
If you’re wondering who wrote this article though, it’s someone who writes under the nickname of Orac. His real name is shrouded in mystery, cloaked in secrecy, and hidden by dark forces, and only obtainable by obscure hacking techniques like googling “Orac real name”
Nancy: “Who wrote this?”
Have you bothered looking what comes after the words “Posted by” that is under the title?
Remember, there will be a pop quiz later. So you might want someone help you to learn how to read two syllable words and how to click on a link.
Thomas, they may even miss the video of him speaking on December 3rd article. Not exactly showing much intellectual acumen.
Thomas, you should instruct the inquirer that whomsoever attempts to g–gle Orac’s real name shall summon forth the investigative mechanations of our Illuminati masters ( Oh, praised be their names) and automatic tracking devices will be initiated immediately.
OBVIOUSLY, they will be subjected to merciless and endless taunting by the regulars as well.
Don’t say I didn’t warn you, scoffers.
Maybe Nancy and Delta1 can be study buddies.
“Who wrote this?”
This is unalloyed Dunning-Kruger. For Nancy: see
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect
I did not see the mercury charge addressed in this article, either. Why not?
Also, how is the efficacy of flu vaccine tested?
Oh noes! Orac was not sufficiently verbose!
Your article does show up after clicking on another facebook article about the CDC making an apology. I am an RN-always trusted blindly that vaccines are wonderful and safe, so of course also had my kids vaccinated, who unfortunately also have ADD and Asperger’s. I started to have some concerns after the HPV was forcefully offered to my daughter after every visit and started to read studies and look at adverse reactions which concerned me. I’ve had the flu once (not clinically diagnosed) and had two flu vaccines in my almost 50 years. Last year we were mandated to wear a mask or get the flu shot, so I started having more of an interest in this area and was surprised to note that two of my patients last year had documented adverse reactions to vaccines that resulted in chronic demyelinating polyneuropathy; one of these cases was attributed to a 2001 flu vaccine. So I was surprised to read your statement: “Contrary to what antivaccinationists and cranks like Bill Maher would have you believe, the flu vaccine is not dangerous, and it does work.” Yet, 800 kids in Europe developed narcolepsy after receiving Pandemrix H1N1 in 2009. You also stated, “He trots out the old claimed link with Guillain-Barre syndrome that is almost certainly not real.” I wasn’t able to follow your link, but GBS is certainly acknowledged to be an adverse reaction to vaccines.
Just to note: the vaccine given by my organization last year didn’t seem to offer much protection either. Most of the cultured patients had a strain of 2009 H1N1 which was in the vaccine. What I keep wondering is why a flu vaccine has now become close to mandatory to almost every human being over 6 months? These vaccines used to be reserved for the elderly. Why do pharmacies and grocery stores offer discounts if you get your flu shot?
Well, there’s this.
And here I had to settle for a single-dose QIV….
Why do I suspect that someone who is too lazy to actually type three words into G—le and pick the second result is not going to have much luck with the answer? (There’s both VE and efficacy in there.)
Mercury, as a metal, doesn’t have a charge. It does exhibit two oxidation states (+1 and +2) when interacting with other elements.
Narad: “Why do I suspect that someone who is too lazy to actually type three words…”
This same person was too lazy to click on the blue words that followed “Posted by” that was right after the title.
Choosing a 2014-2015 flu vaccine
http://forums.webmd.com/3/allergies-exchange/forum/2532
You are still not giving both sides. Not everyone getting a vaccine is the same, but even mainstream peer-reviewed medicine has demonstrated that the flu vaccine does not save lives in the elderly who die from flu the most
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=486407
Conclusion from peer reviewed paper in the JAMA network
Conclusions We attribute the decline in influenza-related mortality among people aged 65 to 74 years in the decade after the 1968 pandemic to the acquisition of immunity to the emerging A(H3N2) virus. We could not correlate increasing vaccination coverage after 1980 with declining mortality rates in any age group. Because fewer than 10% of all winter deaths were attributable to influenza in any season, we conclude that observational studies substantially overestimate vaccination benefit.
Todd.W
“Oh, I know. They also make the false claim that vaccines contain peanut oil.”
Some flu vaccines contain Polysorbate 80. Polysorbate 80 manufacturers use a variety of vegetable oils that could include peanut oil. It is therefore not possible to rule out the presence of peanut oil in vaccine.
Flu vaccine can cause egg allergy in healthy non-allergic individuals.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2249232/pdf/epidinfect00008-0113.pdf
“Contrary to the IgG response, IgE specific to Fl rose significantly after immunization in a considerable number of vaccinees, the results suggesting that influenza vaccine may play a role in sensitizing an individual to egg protein.”
May have contributed to Japan stopping mandatory influenza vaccination of school children in 1987.
Same mechanism, different allergen:
Kuno-Sakai H, Kimura M. Removal of gelatin from live vaccines and DTaP-an ultimate solution for vaccine-related gelatin allergy.Biologicals 2003;31:245-9.
Further research:
Summary:
Childhood Immune Disorder Risk Map per the Richet Allergy Model
Details:
https://foodallergycauses.wordpress.com/
novalox,
Ingesting something is not the same as injecting the same thing.
Vaccine makers make the same mistake. Various food proteins in vaccines contribute to the food allergy epidemic.
JGC,
Ingesting something is not the same as injecting the same thing.
Vaccine makers make the same mistake. Various food proteins in vaccines contribute to the food allergy epidemic.
I asked the FDA if they have determined a safe level of these allergen proteins that can be present in vaccines. Their response:
“There is not, as you describe it, an FDA determined safe amount of a potentially allergenic ingredient contained in a vaccine. The FDA reviews vaccine composition in its entirety to ensure the safety and efficacy of the vaccine.”
So no research has been performed on the effect of multiple vaccines with multiple adjuvants, multiple allergens being administered simultaneously. The amount of allergens in vaccines is unregulated an no safe limit has been established or enforced.
JGC,
“First point: vaccines do not neceesarily contain live attentuated”
Well, live attenuated influenza vaccines (LAIV) do indeed contain live attenuated viruses.
i couldn’t take you serious after I read, “the flu shot is not dangerous”. Seriously do you read any of the facts before you write your myopic arguments?
Orac is afraid of the science here? My posts are being deleted!
https://foodallergycauses.wordpress.com/
Todd. W and Mark,
Tropomyosin is present in the brain, intestine and muscles.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17949819
Charles Richet demonstrated a 100 years ago that any protein injected into the body will result in sensitization. Subsequent exposure to the same protein will cause anaphylaxis.What if the protein is your own muscle protein torn off and injected by the intramuscular vaccine shot?
We also know that many vaccines contain aluminum compounds as adjuvants that increase the immunogenicity of the injected protein. So could one develop autoimmunity to tropomyosin? Result could be autism and/or ulcerative colitis.
Das, KM; Dasgupta, A; Mandal, A; Geng, X (1993). “Autoimmunity to cytoskeletal protein tropomyosin. A clue to the pathogenetic mechanism for ulcerative colitis”. J Immunol 150 (6): 2487–2493. PMID 8450225.
Many ASD kids also suffer ulcerative colitis.
So a mechanism for causal relationship between ASD and vaccines does exist.
Destefano et. al, have left out a big variable in this study – c-section births.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=23545349
C-section birth prime for IgE development by a factor of 5.
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749%2812%2903130-2/fulltext
This could be an important detail if ASD is caused by tropomyosin autoimmunity. It is also easy to confirm? Tropomyosin IgE should be testable in ASD patients?
Slightly off topic perhaps but I recently learned of a new *ahem* sciency explanation of why vaccines are the evil.
You see, microbes and viruses share genetic material all the time so even when giving an inactivated vaccine the normal flora soak up all the vaccine genetic material and some of them turn into the disease the vaccine supposedly prevents. See, make perfect sense.
I don’t spend the time trolling the underworld of quackery some do so I don’t know how common this one is and I only read this one for the first time a few weeks back. But for some reason, perhaps related to the idea being bat shit crazy, I fear it will become common.
Beware the zombie infections rising from the dead!
The thing about science is that it should speak for itself. If it proves something true, great! If new findings disproves the previous findings then great! Keep going. Blogs like this promote fraudulent science.
No, Posts by people who have never commented here before go into automatic moderation. Once I approve them, new commenters can comment freely, with minor restrictions that various filters will occasionally catch and send to moderation (profanity or too many links, for example). You’re just lucky I decided to go through one last round of moderating comments before I went to bed.
It’s too late and I’m too tired now to take a detailed look at your website but the quick run through I gave it is not impressive.
It is so cute when the Dunning-Kruger crowd shows up and tries to talk down to people with science educations.
And you are cherry picking.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/one-flu-into-the-cuckoos-nest/
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/random-flu-thoughts/
That’s OK. I couldn’t take you seriously when it became clear that you think the flu vaccine is dangerous and didn’t bother to cite relevant scientific literature.
Newer research indicates that the risk of Guillain-Barre syndrome is higher after getting the flu than it is after vaccination against seasonal influenza:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24524517
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23810252
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24585755
Argument by package insert again, which, as I explained, is largely meaningless, because package inserts are mainly legal, not medical documents that include every adverse event observed after a vaccine, whether there is good evidence for a causative link to the vaccine or not. In the case of GB syndrome, there is not. Indeed, flu vaccination appears to be protective against GB syndrome compared to getting the flu, as the studies I cited indicate.
If that is indeed the source of the influx of Dunning-Kruger types, it’s depressing, because it indicates massive traffic to that page, given that only a small fraction of readers of a Facebook page with a link will actually click on the link.
@Orac: I noticed that someone also posted a link to this post on Bob Sears’ Facebook page when he started spouting nonsense. I would surmise that your minions have simply been busy today, but that wouldn’t explain why the traffic seems to be coming from one particular Facebook page. I’m not sure which is more depressing, though, as a possible explanation, Mike Adams or Bob Sears,
Now, there’s a level of desperation I haven’t encountered before.
Oh maaaan. I went to Facebook to see who has more followers, Mike Adams or Bob Sears, and it turns out they’re about equal at 30 some odd thousand, which is bad enough. But “Natural News” has 1.5 million likes. That is truly depressing.
I mean, hey, “Natural News,” that sounds all nice and crunchy, right? …
I’m guessing the influx is probably mostly from NaturalNews.com, which is indeed depressing.
It’s all good. As what would a few days ago been called a good man once said “Be careful, you might learn something”.
A few of the anti-vaxers might learn something. Probably not the ones who post their knee-jerk reactions, but a few of the others who follow the link.
Hey, it could happen….
“82% of the circulating strains right now are H3N2. This year’s vaccine is only a good match for 48% of those H3N2 strains. That’s makes up 39% of the total strains. Add to that the 18% of the total strains that not H3N2 and thus still a good match, and you have 57%. Or am I missing something here?”
This originally confused me when I first read it so I hit up Flu Watch to work it out for myself.
From 10/01/14 through 11/29/14 CDC had characterized 132 influenza viruses, 115 influenza A and 17 influenza B.
Of the 115 influenza A viruses, 1 was an A/California/2009 (H1N1)pdm09-like virus while the remaining 114 were H3N2 viruses; 48 of the A(H3N2) viruses were A/Texas/50/2012-like.
Of the 17 influenza B viruses identified, 10 were characterized as B/Massachusetts/2/2012-like.
So… of the 132 viruses tested so far 59 [1 A(H1N1), 48 A(H3N2), and 10 B] have been from strains covered by the trivalent influenza vaccine, giving us an overall “match” of 44.7%.
Based on the last week, this is gonna be a fun season… :/
Narad,
“Now, there’s a level of desperation I haven’t encountered before”
The fact is Polysorbate 80 contents are unregulated. Do you have data to counter it?
You can have Polysorbate 80 (Tween 80) with Kosher certified tapioca, in your vaccine if you want:
http://www.crodahealthcare.com/home.aspx?view=dtl&d=content&s=149&r=346&p=2204&prodID=1878
I have a better idea: Let’s play “How Mr. Allergen Gets into Polysorbate 80”!
Start by explaining how the oleic acid is produced.
“Start by explaining how the oleic acid is produced.”
From vegetable oils.
I guess there are a lot of dead IVIG hobbyists yet to come to light.
Please pay attention to the word in boldface this time.
novalox and JGC,
“the dose makes the poison”
I agree. Now can someone explain why the FDA does not seem to understand it? If the dose makes the poison, surely the amount of allergens present is vaccines should be tightly regulated?
I asked the FDA if they have determined a safe level of allergen proteins that can be present in vaccines. Their response:
“There is not, as you describe it, an FDA determined safe amount of a potentially allergenic ingredient contained in a vaccine. The FDA reviews vaccine composition in its entirety to ensure the safety and efficacy of the vaccine.”
No limits, no specifications, no enforcement for allergens in vaccines.
If there are no studies to determine safe levels for allergens in vaccines, the FDA also cannot quantify the risk involved with vaccinations. If risk has not been quantified, then the FDA’s claim that the “benefits of vaccines outweigh the risks” appears to be bogus.
“I guess there are a lot of dead IVIG hobbyists yet to come to light.”
We are talking about vaccinating healthy individuals. Not people with immune deficiencies.
Perhaps you misread the charity embedded in their response.
“Start by explaining how the oleic acid is produced.”
The end product is what matters.
Here at http://www.polysorbate.jp/
“number one quality product in the world among Polysorbate80s.”
features “Low Allergic Reaction (Low Degranulation)”.
So what do you expect from the rest of the Polysorbate 80s?
It not only contains allergens, it contained enough to elicit allergic reactions in mammals.
No, the laughably absurd persistence from field to end product of some unspecified peanut allergen is “what matters.” I take it that this has never occurred to you before, given this boner:
Yes, in the face of straightforward questions, you’ve collapsed into grasping at Engrish. I would ask you to explain what the appositive “degranulation” is doing there and then explain what the fυck you imagine it has to do with peanuts, but that’s why I started where I did.
So do get back to square one.
You are still not giving both sides.
Someone is complaining about the lack of cow-pie in their apple pie. Conceivably they have come to the wrong restaurant.
Okey-dokey, that’s done. It’s a player piano.
I must admit, I was impressed by APV’s argument back at #82 that manufacturers of polysorbate-80 also work with vegetable oils therefore products containing polysorbate-80 also contain peanut oil (children’s ice-cream, Mandrake!). It is akin to arguing that cats must have scales because
(No charge for the Jethro Tull earworm).
@Narad
I would have gone for a scratched vinyl record.
The text at the link is amusing. Listing everything which can go wrong, and overinflating the risks. And downplaying the benefits.
Given the number of needle punctures I got, I wonder why I’m not dead yet.
No, seriously:
That’s why we are secreting copious amount of mucus up there. So don’t use a neti pot before vaccinating, dummy.
You may also consider stopping breathing. You may accidentally inhale some wild viruses and deposit them directly onto your olfactory nerve, courtesy of the guy who sneezed and filled the air with viral particles 5 minutes ago.
Also, stay deep underground in a NBC-proof bunker. If you step outside, you may be stuck by a meteorite. A very rare event, but one is never cautious enough.
Go back to #108, reread your own words, and then try to figure out why the first paragraph of the link isn’t the reason for its presence.
[…] numerous feverish attempts by pro-pharma internet gatekeepers to save the flu shot’s sinking reputation, the jury should really be in on this modern day […]
Ah, yes, I forgot about allergy immunotherapy, which of course causes anaphylaxis week in and week out. The whole thing is so brain-dead that I’ll kick myself for the waste of time in the morning:
I see the same material is spammed verbatim at scienceforums (from ‘Vinucube’); at Centerforinquiry (from APV); at a peanut allergy site (as Vinucube again); and at
h_ps://foodallergycauses.wordpress.com/ (from a year ago).
APV / Vinucube has not shown any sign yet of interest in non-confirming arguments or evidence but such is the nature of obsessive reasoning.
What if the protein is your own muscle protein torn off
You mean, like every feckin’ time I exercise, or am beaten around the head and shoulders by people I was mouthing off at?
Karl Baba,
That isn’t quite true. It’s hard teasing out the effects of the influenza vaccine, especially in the elderly who have multiple causes of death. This one study found that the effects on the elderly are less than those found in other studies, such as the Dutch cohort study they mention that, “found a 24% reduction in annual mortality risk associated with revaccination of elderly people”.
The study you cite points out that many elderly people have natural immunity to influenza viruses they were exposed to when younger, but acknowledges that, “if high vaccination coverage had been achieved during the 1968 pandemic and the following decade, many of the approximately 130,000 influenza-related deaths that occurred in this period among people aged 45 to 74 years might have been prevented”.
I suspect they are correct in their conclusion that the effects of the influenza vaccine in the elderly has been exaggerated, but that doesn’t mean the vaccine is useless, far from it. The lesson seems to be that people of all ages should get the influenza vaccine. Having tens or hundreds of thousands of people die so that the survivors are immune to some influenza viruses when they are older doesn’t seem a very effective public health measure to me. That’s why I get the influenza vaccine every year.
For an excellent discussion of influenza vaccine efficacy by an infectious disease specialist see this Science Based Medicine post.
@ herr doktor bimler
Other categories of people at risk of sudden allergy by punctured muscles:
Rose gardeners, urchin fishers, hedgehog fans, fakirs, realistic swashbuckling re-enacters, people around the circus guy with the knife-throwing act, and acupuncturists’ customers.
(although, all joking aside, some plants like poison ivy (I think?) and some sea critters can indeed increase your chance of a bad immune reaction – but it’s because of some nasty molecules injected into your wounds, not because of “torn muscle protein”)
@Pamela
That was your first mistake, ma’am. Never trust anything blindly, nor believe that something is safe. Everything in the known universe is not 100% safe nor 100% efficient not 100% efficacious. They really should have gone through basic biology and immunology in nursing school with you. I suggest you ask for a refresher or your money back.
Can you cite those studies about adverse reactions? I’d like to read them as well. All I’ve read is that adverse reactions are small in proportion and minimal in intensity. No deaths. No uteri falling out of women, as some anti-vaxxers have stated.
Look up “recall bias”. You’ve had it more than once, I guarantee it.
Wow! That’s pretty good epidemiological work. They tracked a very rare reaction to to a vaccine given 12 years earlier? I’m impressed. Can you tell us the VAERS record numbers so we can learn more. I’m sure your institution does its due diligence and reports these things to VAERS so that we epidemiologists can look into them.
And subsequent investigation on the matter showed that they were genetically susceptible to narcolepsy through immunization or infection. In essence, they got narcolepsy from the vaccine that they would have gotten from the disease, only without, you know, the disease.
“Seem”? What is the actual data, given as you know what strain they had? Were they vaccinated? Which vaccine were they given? If you throw around statements of fact, it’s good to back them up with facts.
Because of dead babies. We like babies not to die from vaccine-preventable diseases. They were reserved for the elderly AND for children when they were in short supply. But we now have a lot of different manufacturers making injectable and inhaled vaccines, and even vaccines made in cell cultures (insect cells, not dead aborted fetus cells from the 1960s; sorry, PETA) for people with egg allergies.
As for the discounts, it’s a good business model. If you’re going to get your shot at the doctor and get nothing but a good chance at protection, why not get a good chance at protection and 50% off your cheetos? So pharmacies and grocery stores are trying to attract responsible people who do their part for herd immunity who would otherwise get their vaccines at the doctor’s.
I’m serious, though, check with your nursing school. I think they sucked at teaching you biology and basic principles of causation.
I see sick children day in and day out. Believe me, I take the first flu shot from the first batch of flu vaccine my clinic gets. I had the flu ONCE, as a teen–a week’s worth of being bed-ridden with 105 temps and muscle aches that made even moving my eyes excruciatingly painful. After that I started getting flu shots–and have not had the flu since.
The AV loons show their utter, burning stupid when, year after year, they proclaim that a vaccine (ok, all vaccines according to them) is worthless because it is not 100% perfect. Nothing is perfect. Nothing. https://www.facebook.com/RtAVM/photos/a.414675905269091.96547.414643305272351/814655975271080/?type=1&theater
Mike Adams is neither an accurate reporter nor a scientist:
he is a entrepreneur who creates articles as preparatory instruction for his sales pitch. Thus he’s always writing advertisement- everything he does is motivated towards making readers mistrust medicine, governments, media and professionals. AND trusting him as an informed source.
He pushes the idea that vaccines are dangerous and/ or ineffective and that ‘natural immunity’ is superior THEN
he instructs how that end can be achieved, listing a plethora of natural foods, supplements and activities.
He scares people about civil unrest, food shortages and natural catastrophe and then sells them survival products.
ANYONE who reads Natural News can easily find his STORE- and even within many of his articles, specific products are highlighted.
I chose a few items available from the opening page of that store;
Turmeric Liquid Gold Extract @ 24.95
Family Maximum Pandemic Protection Kit @ 99.95
Select Lion’s Mane Mushroom caps @29.95
SurThrival Immortality Quest Chaga Mushroom Extract @55.00
From the section labelled ‘Immunity’
Veganzyme @ 49.96
Immune Support Pack @ 99.99
All prices USD. Some prices are already discounted
Go look for yourself.
He markets himself and his products endlessly..
Mike is a salesman who manages several businesses that enrich him. A few of these are registered overseas and thus less transparent to people who would like to see how much he earns from each one. One of his earlier successes was software that created e-mail advertising.
A Johns Hopkins scientist has issued a blistering report on influenza vaccines in the British Medical Journal (BMJ). Peter Doshi, Ph.D., charges that although the vaccines are being pushed on the public in unprecedented numbers, they are less effective and cause more side effects than alleged by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Further, says Doshi, the studies that underlie the CDC’s policy of encouraging most people to get a yearly flu shot are often low quality studies that do not substantiate the official claims.
Promoting influenza vaccines is one of the most visible and aggressive public health policies in the United States, says Doshi of the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine. Drug companies and public officials press for widespread vaccination each fall, offering vaccinations in drugstores and supermarkets. The results have been phenomenal. Only 20 years ago, 32 million doses of influenza vaccine were available in the United States on an annual basis. Today, the total has skyrocketed to 135 million doses.
– See more at: http://yournewswire.com/johns-hopkins-scientist-reveals-shocking-report-on-flu-vaccines/#sthash.OvojpYPA.dpuf
“The vaccine may be less beneficial and less safe than has been claimed, and the threat of influenza seems to be overstated,” Doshi says. Mandatory vaccination polices have been enacted, often in healthcare facilities, forcing some people to take the vaccine under threat of losing their jobs.
The main assertion of the CDC that fuels the push for flu vaccines each year is that influenza comes with a risk of serious complications which can cause death, especially in senior citizens and those suffering from chronic illnesses. That’s not the case, said Doshi.
When read carefully, the CDC acknowledges that studies finding any perceived reduction in death rates may be due to the “healthy-user effect” — the tendency for healthier people to be vaccinated more than less-healthy people. The only randomized trial of influenza vaccine in older people found no decrease in deaths. “This means that influenza vaccines are approved for use in older people despite any clinical trials demonstrating a reduction in serious outcomes,” says Doshi.
Even when the vaccine is closely matched to the type of influenza that’s prevalent, which doesn’t happen every year, randomized, controlled trials of healthy adults found that vaccinating between 33 and 100 people resulted in one less case of influenza. In addition, says Doshi, no evidence exists to show that this reduction in the risk of influenza for a specific population — here in the United States, among healthy adults, for example — extrapolates into any reduced risk of serious complications from influenza, such as hospitalizations or deaths, among seniors.
“For most people, and possibly most doctors, officials need only claim that vaccines save lives, and it is assumed there must be solid research behind it,” says Doshi. Unfortunately, that’s not the case, he says.
Although the CDC implies that flu vaccines are safe and there’s no need to weigh benefits against risk, Doshi disagrees. He points to an Australian study that found one in every 110 children under the age of five had convulsions following vaccinations in 2009 for H1N1 influenza. Additional investigations found that the H1N1 vaccine was also associated with a spike in cases of narcolepsy among adolescents.
Doshi’s concerns echo those of Dr. Russell Blaylock, a neurosurgeon and author of “The Blaylock Wellness Report” who has deep concerns over the safety and efficacy of the flu vaccine.
Not only is the vaccine not safe, Dr. Blaylock tells Newsmax Health, it doesn’t even work. “The vaccine is completely worthless, and the government knows it,” he says. “There are three reasons the government tells the elderly why they should get flu shots: secondary pneumonia, hospitalization, and death. Yet a study by the Cochrane group studied hundreds of thousands of people and found it offered zero protection for those three things in the general community. It offered people in nursing homes some immunity against the flu — at best one-third — but that was only if they picked the right vaccine.”
A study released in February found that the flu shot was only 9 percent effective in protecting seniors against the 2012-2013 season’s most virulent influenza bug.
What’s even worse is that small children who are given the flu vaccine get no protection from the disease. “The government also says that every baby over the age of six months should have a vaccine, and they know it contains a dose of mercury that is toxic to the brain,” says Dr. Blaylock. “They also know the studies have shown that the flu vaccine has zero — zero — effectiveness in children under five.”
For most people, says Dr. Blaylock, flu vaccines don’t prevent the flu but actually increase the odds of getting it. The mercury contained in vaccines is such a strong immune depressant that a flu shot suppresses immunity for several weeks. “This makes people highly susceptible to catching the flu,” he says. “They may even think the vaccine gave them the flu, but that’s not true — it depressed their immune system and then they caught the flu.”
Mercury overstimulates the brain for several years, says Dr. Blaylock, and that activation is the cause of Alzheimer’s and other degenerative diseases. One study found that those who get the flu vaccine for three to five years increase their risk of Alzheimer’s disease 10-fold.
Doshi asserts that influenza is a case of “disease mongering” in an effort to expand markets. He points to the fact that deaths from flu declined sharply during the middle of the 20th century, long before the huge vaccine campaigns that kicked off the 21st century.
Why do drug companies push the flu vaccine? “It’s all about money,” says Dr. Blaylock. “Vaccines are a pharmaceutical company’s dream. They have a product that both the government and the media will help them sell, and since vaccines are protected, they can’t be sued if anyone has a complication.”
Doshi’s article “is a breath of fresh air,” says Dr. Blaylock. “This article exposes in well-defined and articulate terms what has been known for a long time — the flu vaccine promotion is a fraud.
“Here’s the bottom line,” says Dr. Blaylock. “The vast number of people who get the flu vaccine aren’t going to get any benefit, but they get all of the risks and complications.”
@Chris Hickie #128
Just out of curiosity, should immunocompromised children be kept away from all the dirty little LAIVed ones should they pay your office a visit??
Before swallowing Doshi’s claims whole, it might be helpful to read this recent article:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2014/11/03/shocking-report-on-flu-vaccine-is-neither-shocking-nor-correct/
“Doshi’s concerns echo those of Dr. Russell Blaylock, a neurosurgeon and author of “The Blaylock Wellness Report” who has deep concerns over the safety and efficacy of the flu vaccine.”
Russell Blaylock – now _there’s_ an impeccable source. His “deep concerns” also extend to dire warnings about aspartame, water fluoridation and amalgam fillings. According to the Encylopedia of American Loons, Blaylock “has also suggested that the H1N1 virus may even be man-made and purposely released by someone with the ”Illuminati Depopulation Agenda””.
http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2013/04/505-russell-blaylock.html
Wonder if Doshi appreciates having a nutbar like Blaylock fawning all over him.
Blaylock also has his very own page on whale.to, a sure sign of entry into the upper echelons of altie crazy.
@B.J. Mckay:
Given that no effort was required for the cut and paste per se, one might think you could have at least reproduced the identifiable paragraphs from the original.
I seem to have missed this, as, apparently, did vaccine manufacturers.
@Narad
I was not trying to reproduce anything I was simply re-posting an article that I read. I am therefor not agreeing with it nor denying. I was under the assumption that this might be a place that we could spread ideas. However, after reading many of the post, I have noticed that you people just like to put down those that you do not agree with. I tell you what fella, I am not a doctor nor a medical employed professional of any kind, but you nerdy bastards would say some of the things to me in person that you said to the people that commented on this post, I then would deal with you each accordingly. There is no need to put someone down just because you do not agree with their views. There are many things that I do not agree with but I read each post and attempted to learn from each. If you do not like what or how I say it please feel free to meet me somewhere and we can for sure discuss this in person.
Ack. Doshi. A guy who’s invited to speak at antivaccine crank conferences:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/crank-conferences-a-parody-of-science-based-medicine-that-can-suck-in-even-reputable-scientists-and-institutions/
And is basically wrong about so many things:
http://thepoxesblog.wordpress.com/2014/10/24/just-in-time-for-halloween-an-anti-vaccine-expert-rises-like-a-zombie/
http://thepoxesblog.wordpress.com/2013/07/25/non-epidemiologist-tries-to-do-epidemiology-feeds-anti-vaccine-activists/
http://thepoxesblog.wordpress.com/2013/10/07/science-and-reality-and-aids-denialism/
@apv, bj
Hmm, so where are your citations, since you are bringing up the assertions. It’s in your court to show evidence for them after all.
Also, have you even read the title of the blog? If you are going to get butthurt from your views being challenged, you either find evidence to support your assertions, or don’t post at all. Whining and complaining about your feelings being hurt just makes you look like you have no evidence for your assertions and makes you come out as having misplaced view in the least, a liar at the worse.
So, what’s it going to be?
I take it that identifying internal contradictions is not your strong suit.
Uh-huh. I guess it was also too much trouble to mention this after exhausting yourself with a cut and paste.
FTFY.
Oh, look an Internet Tough Guy.
Just a few sentences ago, you had read “many of the post.” One might suspect that what in fact happened is that you just wandered in and plopped down your Blaylock spam.
What’s your address? Do I get to meet Bear?
As George Burns said: “Sincerity. Once you can fake it, you’ve got it made.”
Too bad for you.
Actually one of the foremost vaccine researchers in the WORLD–Dr. Jefferson–has stated that there is NO PROOF that the Flu vaccines work. I guess you could go up against HIM?
Do Flu Vaccines Really Work? A Skeptic’s View
http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1967306,00.html
” On Feb. 16, the Cochrane Library published your updated review of all major studies on the efficacy of flu vaccines for the elderly, some of the results of which you believe to be preposterous. Can you explain?
We looked at studies on vaccines in the elderly and in health care workers who work with the elderly, and we found an implausible sequence of results. We have studies that claim up to 90% effectiveness against death from all causes [in inoculated patients compared with the nonvaccinated]. If you were to believe that evidence, you would believe that flu vaccine is effective against death not only from influenza, but also from heart attack, stroke, hypothermia, accidents and all other common causes of death among the elderly. That is quite clearly nonsense.
This is not to say that these and other studies, taken together, suggest that vaccines don’t work for the elderly. The answer is a question mark. We don’t know what protection, if any, vaccines offer. I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Uncertainty is the motor of science. We need large studies to find out.
Why do you think such studies have not been done?
I don’t know. We’ve known for years that we needed proof one way or the other, and governments have not taken any notice of this. It’s an extraordinary situation.
One argument I’ve heard is that it would be unethical to compare vaccines against a placebo because you would be withholding crucial treatment from patients. Do you agree?
No. We don’t know these vaccines work, so you can’t make that claim. But if you really find placebos to be unethical, then why don’t you randomize against masks, hand-washing, gloves, distancing — public health measures that have proven to be effective?”
So….you take it on faith. Big Pharma makes lots of money from your “faith.” People get the shot and still get sick.
BTW, CIDRAP chimed in on the subject yesterday. They’re not down with the lessened severity part.
Haha. Hahaha. Hahahahaha. Yeah, accordingly.
He’s a foremost vaccine researcher? How? And, yes, I’d go up against him any day of the week, even Sundays.
this might be a place that we could spread ideas
You know that there are these things called “blogs”, where if you want to
spam Blaylock’s press releasesspread ideas, you can copy-paste crap to your heart’s content?you nerdy bastards would say some of the things to me in person that you said to the people that commented on this post
If those other commenters are in the habit of saying stupid things in real life as well as in pseudonymous on-line fora, then no doubt they’re used to other people calling them numpties and eedjits in real life too.
I almost forgot to ask… How much money does Big Pharma make from vaccines compared to, say, erectile dysfunction tablets? Be quantitative.
Re: Tom Jefferson
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/one-flu-into-the-cuckoos-nest/
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2013/01/25/cochranes-tom-jefferson-on-gary-null-show/
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2009/10/26/when-methodolatry-strikes-over-h1n1-influenza/
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/flu-vaccine-efficacy/
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/yes-but-the-annotated-atlantic/
So you’d thank them for their reasoned responses to the abject BS that people have posted here?
Somehow, I don’t think that’s what he meant… 🙂
Most of the cultured patients had a strain of 2009 H1N1 which was in the vaccine.
I guess they get exposed while going to all those art galleries and concerts. How about the philistines?
@Helianthus #119
Dang. I was going to point out that town with the meteor-accosted lady was the birthplace of Gomer Pyle (Jim Nabors) and that she was probably sitting on the couch watching The Andy Griffith Show at the time…What would have been the odds of that?? Unfortunately, the dates don’t quite work out and TAGS was aired on CBS and not NBC. The ‘doctor’ still looks like *Floyd*, though.
Sylacauga, Jim Nabors:
http://www.roadsideamerica.com/tip/8627
In 2004 the CDC hid data linking vaccines to increased autism in black boys (note CDC Thompson’s admissions in 2014). Yet uninformed or agenda driven people continue to say it is safe. The “pro vaccine crowd at any cost” would say that the 2004 data is just an omission of relevant findings. The fact that they hid this data on behalf of big pharma troubles me. The CDC is no longer to be trusted and anyone automatically defending vaccines and flu shots, too, like this “author” who also is either misinformed or is leaving off relevant info by omission, should not be trusted. This topic is easily deflected away from anti vaccine / flu shot sentiment. When you dig DEEP into the facts you will find countless incidents of US government atrocities at the hand of big pharma or CIA or the military complex, like Tuskegee, Lyme’s disease, Ebola (yes Tulane is at work again – this time in West Africa), etc. On this OLD you tube video for Vaccine newbies… Ignore the dramatic narrative and just listen to the leading guy at Merck talk about vaccines and aids. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13QiSV_lrDQ People who generally question vaccines are conservative truth seekers – where people attacking the truth seekers are generally liberal and lump all of their agendas into black and white Gun control, abortion, vaccines – its all about towing the rope. I am neither. Republicans are equal to democrats in corruption and ability to improve life or the economy. But instead I am a father with children trusting neither side. Take your analysis and shove it up your asses and just rely on facts. If you are going to use history to defend vaccines, then include all history. VAccines can work, but does our government do anything correctly? So if I had to ask a question, why should we ignore the past atrocities and trust them now?
B.J. @135:
Urgh, blockquote fail.
herr doktor bimler,
About #118, Polysorbate 80 manufacturers use vegetable oil in the manufacture of the product. They don’t just work with it.
As I wrote in #113, the allergen is still present in the Polysorbate 80.
They use maize and wheat to make Polysorbate 80 here:
http://www.emdmillipore.com/US/en/product/Tween%C2%AE-80-%28Polysorbate%29,MDA_CHEM-817061#documentation
Hellanthus,
About #119
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/03/rare-infection-prompts-neti-pot-warning/?_r=0
The more stuff you put in your nose, the more likely that you are going to have a problem. With asthma and allergy so common, many people also use inhaled corticosteroids which suppress immune function in the nostrils.
Narad,
About #122, allergy immunotherapy can cause anaphylaxis.
http://www.uptodate.com/contents/anaphylaxis-induced-by-subcutaneous-allergen-immunotherapy
You have to understand that it takes very little allergen to cause sensitization, but a lot more allergen to elicit an allergic reaction.
DTaP followed by DTaP produced no anaphylaxis.
DTaP followed by MMR produced anaphylaxis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9949325
Bottom line, food proteins in vaccines cause food allergy in healthy non-allergic individuals.
Well now here’s the thing. Why should I have myself injected with a foreign substance that most of the time works somewhat but never perfectly, that on a whim, a power broker can add a chemical/ingredient that will render a small (OR LARGE IF THEY LIKE) but significant part of the population either sterile, sick, give them cancer, or autism or whatever the power broker cares to insert. Agenda 21 is not a nutcase fantasy. Most who work in the industry have no clue as information is need to know and compartmentalized so most think they are doing good….probably just like the writer of the article. If I take the shot, I’m taking a chance it might help…AND taking a chance this is the time “they” add the one ingredient that will affect me in a way I did not sign up for. The writer of the article cannot declare vaccines 100% safe….that would be a bald faced and ridiculous lie. On the other hand, I can refuse the pressure of making big phama a few bucks more on top of their billions and just wait and see if I actually get the flu which is rarely fatal and since the advent of intraveinous fluid replacement and fluid modulation capability via lasix and other diuretics hardly a worry because at most it’s a couple days in the hospital. That’s the likely worst case scenario. I will chance that because I have the added bonus of peace of mind….which is priceless.
herr doktor bimler,
About #124, yes if you tear your muscle, in theory there is a small probability that you could sensitize yourself to tropomyosin.
With intramuscular vaccines/injections, you not only tear muscle, but you also have viral/bacterial proteins and adjuvants injected at the same time. When you increase immune response by such an action, the probability of sensitization goes way up. Then, we repeat it 40 times over a few years for a kid.
Rene Najera,
About #127,
Since you are en epidemiologist, I think you should demand that FDA add a warning in the package insert stating “Vaccines may cause the development of food allergy”.
As I wrote in #83, vaccines have been shown to cause development of food allergies in healthy non-allergic patients due to food proteins present in them.
Today when doctors diagnose food allergy they don’t suspect a vaccine may be involved and therefore DO NOT report it to the VAERS. This is a vicious circle. You epidemiologists don’t see the data in VAERS, you dissociate vaccines/food allergies which means even fewer doctors report, etc.
40 separate injections? ORLY?
You’d think that the epidemic of tropomyosin auto-immunity among acupuncture patients would have been noticed by now.
I see Mike Adams’ fans are not only too lazy to click on the link under the title and after the words “Posted by”, they are too lazy to put the name of their authority of choice in the search box located to the right of the title.
If they had bothered the could have found out how well names like Blaylock, Jefferson and Doshi would be considered. Not much. Do try it for other names like “Mercola”, “Fisher”, “Blaxill”, etc. And only post their screed after you have read the resulting links.
APV: “DTaP followed by MMR produced anaphylaxis.”
Try actually reading the link you provided. They were “monovalent measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines containing 0.2% gelatin as stabilizer”… and it was in Japan. It has nothing to do with the trivalent MMR used in the USA. Japan had a different MMR vaccine.
Oh, and you should also try putting Polysorbate 80 in the search box to the right of the article title.
Now the next link that all of you should now provide is the PubMed indexed studies by reputable, qualified researchers that show any influenza vaccine approved for use in the USA causes more harm than the actual disease. A disease that kills about a hundred kids per year in the USA, and has already killed five children this season.
No it isn’t present. Maize and wheat aren’t even present in the final product. Why doesn’t your hero Mikey DeRanger buy a bottle and test it for allergens; it shouldn’t be hard for such an accomplished scientist.
Riiight and this just happens all the damn time. How pathetic.
[…] (PI) as “proof” that it is dangerous, contains dangerous stuff, or is just plain scary. Orac has recently proclaimed it “Argument by Package Insert”–it’s almost at the level of logical […]
Allow me to refresh your memory:
No, you desperately barfed up something completely fυcking irrelevant. You have no fυcking idea how polyoxyethylene sorbitan esters are manufactured or how the fυck an allergen is supposed to survive this, much less in any discernible quantity, and you don’t give a shіt because you’re a fυcking moron who has so little going on between your ears that all you can do is repeat the same shіt over and over again.
Go back to the fυcking Poughkeepsie that is scienceforums-dot-net.
I guess you haven’t figured out that that’s where the “power brokers” really have a field day.
P.S. I am not a crank.
its all about towing the rope
What fresh illiteracy is this?
Lyme’s disease is made by the CIA now? The plot thickens.
I can imagine men in black gathering around very small cages, watching over ticks, fleas and other bugs. Must be fun.
Re: intraveinous fluid replacement.
So people are mistrusting what Big Pharma is putting in 1-ml vaccines, but will hook up on a 1-liter bag of IV fluid made by the same companies without a second thought?
@Coleman Anderson
Says the nutcase with a fantasy.
No one worth their salt when it comes to credibility and scientific accuracy will ever declare vaccines 100% safe. Do you want to know why? Because nothing in the known universe is 100% safe, not even that mole on your back.
Yeah, tell that to the thousands who die from it each year. Stupid people, they should have gotten lasix.
Mick Carlotta: “In 2004 the CDC hid data linking vaccines to increased autism in black boys (note CDC Thompson’s admissions in 2014).”
Do you really not know how to use a search engine, even one that is in the box at the top of this page? Here, let me help you:
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/?s=thompson
Coleman Adamson: “The writer of the article cannot declare vaccines 100% safe….that would be a bald faced and ridiculous lie.”
Please give the direct quote from the above article where that is claimed. Also look up “Nirvana Fallacy.”
“On the other hand, I can refuse the pressure of making big phama a few bucks more on top of their billions and just wait and see if I actually get the flu which is rarely fatal and since the advent of intraveinous fluid replacement and fluid modulation capability via lasix and other diuretics hardly a worry because at most it’s a couple days in the hospital.”
So you think “intraveinous fluid replacement and fluid modulation capability via lasix and other diuretics” do not provide Big Pharma profits.
I went to my local pharmacy where the flu vaccine costs about $30. Now in front of me is the bill from the three day hospital stay for my son a almost three years old. It is about $10000. You really need to convince me that treating influenza is more cost effective than preventing it.
From APV
I’m not a doctor so I could be way off, but it seems to me that, if you are taking immunosuppressant drugs, that may not be the right time to get a vaccine.
Not necessarily because the vaccine will create troubles, but simply because it will be much less likely to work.
@APV
So does, you know, food. Should we label everything that may cause the development of a food allergy? Because that’s a lot of labels. Or should we label not what “may” but what “does”?
Citation, please?
Much in the same way that they don’t suspect owls bathed in chocolate of causing the food allergy. Does this mean that owls bathed in chocolate cause food allergies but we’re ignoring that?
Hahahaha. Hahahahaha. He thinks he knows what we do.
He thinks he’s people.
As I wrote in #113, the allergen is still present in the Polysorbate 80.
The claim might be more credible if APV had specified which allergen was meant (rather than tergiversating and moving the goalposts back and forth between peanut oil — cue the scary Twilight-Zone music! — and wheat / maize raw materials). Not *much* more credible, but it’s worth a try.
But then when you check comment #113, it turns out that the only support APV provides for the allergens-in-Polysorbate campfire tale is a link to a Japanese supplier’s advertisement which emphasises the lack of allergic response to the product.
WTF?
So the drug companies, the WHO and CDC knew in March that the vaccine would likely not be that effective but continued to roll it out and sell it anyways because they started production in February…seems pretty ethical
Agenda 21 is not a nutcase fantasy
I am disappointed by Coleman Adamson’s failure to go into more detail about the New World Order, MK-ULTRA, and Bill Gates’ plan to depopulate the world.
When you dig DEEP into the facts you will find countless incidents of US government atrocities at the hand of big pharma or CIA or the military complex
Mick Carlotta is also an expert on voices in the head.
A dose of Fluarix Quadrivalent vaccine contains less than 0.55 milligrams of Polysorbate 80. A litre of Polysorbate 80, at about 1075 grams, would be sufficient for about 1.95 million doses, a 20 litre pail sufficient for 39.9 million doses. If the Polysorbate 80 cost ten thousand dollars per litre to manufacture, it would contribute about 512 millicents cost per dose of vaccine. $10K/L seems like it would be enough to be fairly rigorous in refining the oil feedstock to be sure it was free of allergens, especially considering that ordinary refined peanut oil from the grocery store is generally considered to be allergen free.
It doesn’t understand that this (PDF) was written by nonnative English speakers, and it’s too dense or dishonest to realize that it takes about 30 seconds to get a clue.
But, I want vaccines without any Tandy Corp. PS-80 in it…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRS-80
herr doktor bimler,
“The claim might be more credible if APV had specified which allergen was meant”
I can’t read the minds of the Polysorbate 80 manufacturers.
They could be using any of a variety of allergens.
The FDA does not require the contents of Polysorbate 80 to be listed on the package insert. I am pointing out (1) that at least maize, wheat and kosher tapioca are definitely used in the manufacture of Polysorbate 80 and (2) that even high quality Polysorbate 80 manufacturers are unable to claim an allergen-free product.
http://www.crodahealthcare.com/home.aspx?view=dtl&d=content&s=149&r=346&p=2204&prodID=1878
http://www.emdmillipore.com/US/en/product/Tween%C2%AE-80-%28Polysorbate%29,MDA_CHEM-817061#documentation
” advertisement which emphasises the lack of allergic response to the product.”
Low allergic reaction is NOT “lack of allergic response”.
As I have pointed out before, if you have enough allergen in Polysorbate 80/vaccine to elicit an allergic reaction, you have more than enough to cause sensitization.
DTaP followed by DTaP produced no anaphylaxis.
Sensitization but no elicitation.
DTaP followed by MMR produced anaphylaxis.
Sensitization followed by elicitation.
MMR has more gelatin than DTaP.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9949325
Bottom line, food proteins are present in vaccines and cause food allergy in healthy non-allergic individuals.
I guess comments do not get through the moderator if the exercise common sense?
Doug,
“it would be enough to be fairly rigorous in refining the oil feedstock to be sure it was free of allergens, especially considering that ordinary refined peanut oil from the grocery store is generally considered to be allergen free.”
Nope. Pl. see #177. It takes only trace quantities of protein to cause sensitization.
Example: 15 mcg of viral protein produced anti-influenza IgE in 3 of 3 people (100%).
Smith-Norowitz TA, Wong D, Kusonruksa M, Norowitz KB, Joks R, Durkin HG, Bluth MH. Long Term Persistence of IgE Anti-Influenza Virus Antibodies in Pediatric and Adult Serum Post Vaccination with Influenza Virus Vaccine. Int J Med Sci 2011; 8(3):239-244. doi:10.7150/ijms.8.239. Available from http://www.medsci.org/v08p0239.htm
Nope, they do not, as you can see.
@Chris, #60, yours is a particularly valuable post for me, thank u kindly for the references, I just read http://www.virology.ws/influenza-101/
Straight science, no BS.
Dr. Edzard Ernst & Simon Singh are amongst my favourites on the topic of sham medicine, I’ve read (and recommend for learning and amusement) their e-book from Amazon Trick or Treatment
http://www.amazon.com/Trick-Treatment-Undeniable-Alternative-Medicine-ebook/dp/B001CDZZHW/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1417917954&sr=1-1&keywords=Trick+or+treatment
APV,
No they don’t. There is a large body of good quality evidence that contradicts your claim, for example this review.
I looked at your blog, and found an embarrassing collection of cherry-picked and grossly misinterpreted studies and breathtakingly ignorant speculation about them. Here are some of the claims you made:
The study you posted to support this statement does not support it. People with normal levels of IgE are not allergic, and the patients in the study with elevated IgE were allergic to environmental allergens and food, as evidenced by skin sensitivity tests. There is no reason to believe the IgE to influenza was caused by the vaccine and not by exposure to wild influenza viruses, and in any case the levels are too low to be called an allergy.
Adjuvants are designed to increase IgG responses, not IgE responses. I can’t find any good evidence that any vaccine induces allergies, and as I mentioned above, there is good evidence that they do not.
No it doesn’t, it is made from vegetable oils, but it doesn’t contain any, any more than a piece of plastic contains crude oil. If you have evidence that polysorbate contains any proteins, please provide it as I can’t find any.
Intact proteins get absorbed in the intestines? How does a huge protein molecule cross the mucosal lining of the intestinal wall? The study you cite to support this found increases in IgE in patients on long-term proton pump inhibitors, which they suggest is due to triggering of mucosal sensitization, not absorption into the blood as you claim.
The study you cite to support this is a 27-year-old paper that states that there is, “a potential risk of allergic manifestation after influenza vaccination”. I can’t find any evidence that this is actually the case.
You have grossly misunderstood the study you linked to in which different food proteins were injected into mice interperitoneally and specific IgG1 antibody serum levels measured. There is nothing there about IgE or the induction of food allergies, the aim of the study was to see if the same foods that induce allergies in humans induce large IgG responses in mice.
That’s an IgG reaction to the influenza protein, not an IgE reaction associated with allergies..
Even if your calculation was valid, which it isn’t, you would expect people who are vaccinated against influenza to develop IgG antibodies against ovalbumin protein, not IgE and an allergy.
No, they might develop some IgG antibodies against egg protein, but I see no evidence that 0.5 micrograms of egg protein will induce an allergy. The lowest amount of protein that can produce an allergic reaction is in the order of tens of micrograms:
It seems very unlikely that such a tiny amount of egg protein could make a person allergic to eggs. The vastly greater amounts of egg protein in many foods is a much more likely source of egg allergy.
Really? Oh dear. That’s milk and egg allergies, and according to your reference it’s “1-2% for young children and 0.2-0.4% in the general population”. Since most people lose their egg allergy by the time they reach adulthood, and plenty of adults get influenza vaccines your calculations don’t seem to work out.
From a paper on the subject, “in five sheep, lung injury was induced by lavage with 0.2% polysorbate 80 in saline”. Are vaccine recipients lungs washed out with 0.2% polysorbate 80? That’s 2 grams per liter, or 2,000 µg per mL. Are you really suggesting that the maximum of 100 µg polysorbate per dose of any vaccine causes lung damage when injected intramuscularly?
Except that doesn’t happen; there is a large amount of evidence to the contrary, see my first link above.
There were 13,359 vaccinated children and only 94 unvaccinated children aged 1-17 years in the study, so it isn’t very surprising that none of the unvaccinated children aged 1-10 years were not asthmatic. The difference is not statistically significant. You seem to have missed the prevalence of asthma at 11 to 17 years which is higher in the unvaccinated 8.4% (95% confidence limits 2.8 to 22.3) than in the vaccinated 7.0% (6.2 to 7.8), though again the difference is not statistically significant. Maybe that’s because these children didn’t have their lungs washed out with detergent.
Yet large epidemiological studies have found not a ghost of a hint of an association. See PMID: 12182385 (any further links will put this comment into moderation).
There’s more, but I’m tired of this, and need sleep, but I think I have made my point. You don’t have sufficient understanding of the subject matter to be making these alarmist claims that are contradicted by large amounts of good quality evidence. Some people may believe this nonsense and decide against having their children vaccinated as a result. I’m sure you mean well, but your obsessive fixation on vaccines as a cause of food allergies is incorrect and dangerous. I suggest you find a hobby that doesn’t put children’s lives at risk, or get a basic education in science in general and immunology in particular before posting any more of this garbage.
herr doktor bimler,
About #159
Yes, easily 40 separate injections.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html
Like I wrote before, acupuncture does not inject adjuvants, viral/bacterial proteins that increase immune response.
It is not risk-free, but less risk than vaccines.
Roman: “@Chris, #60, yours is a particularly valuable post for me,”
Thank you!
APV: “It is not risk-free, but less risk than vaccines.”
So what exactly is the relative risk between the influenza vaccines approved for use in the USA compared to actually getting influenza? Just provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers to support your answer. And remember it is the relative risk between the vaccine and the disease, not about allergies… and just stick to influenza.
APV,
Presumably you mean those that received Fluzone, who were all over the age of 40, and were vaccinated less than two years previously. A full adult dose of Fluzone contains 45 µg influenza antigens, not 15. As I pointed out in my last comment, we don’t know if the anti-influenza IgE detected was due to vaccination or to exposure to wild influenza viruses. One subject, a 16-year-old boy, was vaccinated against influenza but only had anti-influenza IgG, not IgE. I suggest that’s because he hadn’t yet been exposed to wild influenza viruses, while all the other subjects, apart from two one-year-olds, had both anti-influenza IgG and IgE.
Even assuming that 45 micrograms of influenza antigen really did cause an allergy to influenza, which is very doubtful, why should we believe that the mere 0.5 micrograms of egg protein in an influenza vaccine would cause egg allergy?
Really hitting the sack this time….
APV: “Yes, easily 40 separate injections.”
So what? Also the rotavirus is an oral vaccine.
I counted 31 up through age four if the child got an annual influenza vaccine. So, really, tell how much more dangerous are the eight influenza vaccines approved for children in the USA more dangerous than influenza. A disease that has already killed five kids on its way to killing a pediatric deaths this season.
Just give us the study that shows those relative risks. We’d be interested if the influenza vaccine killed dozens of kids each year in the USA.
@APV
Since you’re so interested in how the immune system works, I highly recommend this video series.
The tl;dv is that the immune system cannot react to just any protein: the protein has to be one that you are genetically disposed to reacting to and that the part of the immune system devoted to keeping it from attacking the body hasn’t learned to be part of the body. (The immune system actually has assassin cells that go about checking immune cells to see off they could potentially attack body cells, and makes them die if they can. It’s pretty cool! Watch the videos.)
Also, the immune system doesn’t have a way to know how a protein got into your body. It treats a protein the same whether it got there through injection, through food, or was made by the body itself. The immune system is in constant contact with muscle cells. If there is one thing better at sensitizing the immune system than vaccine adjuvants, it’s actually getting sick, and the immune system gets the fun task of killing off muscle cells infected with viruses periodically. If the immune system could get sensitized to muscle proteins, that would certainly do it.
justthestats,
“the protein has to be one that you are genetically disposed to reacting”
justthestats,
“the protein has to be one that you are genetically disposed to reacting”
No. Charles Richet tried sea anemone toxin on dogs and got a reaction. You can inject any food protein into rats/mice along with alum and you can get a reaction. No genetic disposition to a particular protein is necessary.
“Also, the immune system doesn’t have a way to know how a protein got into your body. It treats a protein the same whether it got there through injection, through food, or was made by the body itself.”
You are absolutely right. Food proteins are never naturally present in the blood. Food is always broken down by the digestion process into amino acids before it is absorbed.
If you take acid-reducing medications, proteins are not broken down and intact proteins can get absorbed. So you develop allergy just as if the food proteins were injected. Bottom line, food proteins don’t belong in the blood regardless of route of administration.
“it’s actually getting sick, and the immune system gets the fun task of killing off muscle cells infected with viruses periodically. If the immune system could get sensitized to muscle proteins, that would certainly do it.”
The interesting part is, this process has been perfected to work safely (most of the time) over millions of years of evolution. So we see those exceptions once in a while like strep causing rheumatic/scarlet fever or campylobacter causing GBS.
Chris,
About #188,
Vaccines save lives. I am not questioning that.
We have to move on from “vaccine vs. no vaccine” and focus on improving vaccine safety to cut back the suffering from vaccine-induced diseases.
Instead, the FDA/CDC seem to want to hide/obfuscate the facts about vaccine-induced diseases. The result is a loss of trust and less vaccine uptake. Opposite of the desired effect.
Make vaccines safer. Specify and enforce limits on allergens in vaccines. Make the safety information public. Have open discussion of risks. Earn trust. People will vaccinate.
“We have to move on from “vaccine vs. no vaccine” and focus on improving vaccine safety to cut back the suffering from vaccine-induced diseases.”
Where is the quantification of those “vaccine-induced diseases”? Specifically the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers. Has any influenza vaccine in the USA caused a hundred pediatric deaths in the USA due to allergic reactions? That should be something that would be in the literature.
Make sure they are ones that you have read and understood. It has been noted multiple times on this thread that what you cite does not say what you claim they say.
Kreblozen,
About #187,
“A full adult dose of Fluzone contains 45 µg influenza antigens, not 15.”. Yes, it is 15 mcg per virus type for a total of 45 mcg in a trivalent vaccine.
There were unvaccinated controls in the study who did not exhibit any anti-influenza IgE, demonstrating that the vaccine caused the IgE synthesis.
“why should we believe that the mere 0.5 micrograms of egg protein in an influenza vaccine would cause egg allergy”
It is a matter of probability. 15 mcg was enough to cause IgE in 100% of subjects. So one can “back-of-the-envelope” estimate that up to ~3% may develop anti-ovalbumin IgE or egg allergy due to the 0.5 mcg of ovalbumin in the vaccine.
@Coleman Anderson
So you don’t trust those evil BigPharma basterds not to make you sterile with their “not 100% safe” vaccines yet those same evil basterds poduce safe liters of iv fluids and lasix that are guaranteed to cause no harm?
How do you function in real life with that kind of thinking?
Um, no:
“Influenza viral characterization data indicates that 48% of the influenza A (H3N2) viruses collected and analyzed in the United States from October 1 through November 22, 2014 were antigenically “like” the 2014-2015 influenza A (H3N2) vaccine component, but that 52% were antigenically different (drifted) from the H3N2 vaccine virus….
“Drifted H3N2 viruses were first detected in late March 2014, after World Health Organization (WHO) recommendations for the 2014-2015 Northern Hemisphere vaccine had been made in mid-February. At that time, a very small number of these viruses had been found among the thousands of specimens that had been collected and tested, but these viruses have become more predominant over time.”
Whoops.
@APV #191:
“No. Charles Richet tried sea anemone toxin on dogs and got a reaction. You can inject any food protein into rats/mice along with alum and you can get a reaction. No genetic disposition to a particular protein is necessary.”
Most likely the protein used in this experiment had a conserved region that is cross reactive with another allergenic protein.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S009167490402682X
Besides, if mammals did produce allergic reactions to any foreign protein in the blood stream, don’t you think we’d all be going into anaphylactic shock anytime we had a repeat viral infection with like the Epstein-Barr or rhinovirus?
Chris,
About #193,
Flu vaccine can cause egg allergy in healthy non-allergic individuals.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2249232/pdf/epidinfect00008-0113.pdf
“Contrary to the IgG response, IgE specific to Fl rose significantly after immunization in a considerable number of vaccinees, the results suggesting that influenza vaccine may play a role in sensitizing an individual to egg protein.”
May have contributed to Japan stopping mandatory influenza vaccination of school children in 1987.
Same mechanism, different allergen:
Kuno-Sakai H, Kimura M. Removal of gelatin from live vaccines and DTaP-an ultimate solution for vaccine-related gelatin allergy.Biologicals 2003;31:245-9.
And you know that food allergies can cause death.
APV: “May have contributed to Japan stopping mandatory influenza vaccination of school children in 1987”
Interesting. So this Japanese vaccine used in the 1980s is now causing a hundred pediatric deaths per year in the USA? How does that work?
Let me cut and paste the question for you with some added emphasis: “Where is the quantification of those “vaccine-induced diseases”? Specifically the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers. Has any influenza vaccine in the USA caused a hundred pediatric deaths in the USA due to allergic reactions? That should be something that would be in the literature.”
I believe I mentioned before that Japan is not in the USA. The vaccines are different because they are a different country. Oh, and vaccine manufacturing has changed in the three decades.
Oh, and if you want to claim allergic reactions, you have to quantify with documentation that they caused a hundred pediatric deaths. This is part of the relative risk bit.
Slan Williams #197,
“Most likely the protein used in this experiment had a conserved region that is cross reactive with another allergenic protein.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S009167490402682X”
Not sure I understand. How did the animals develop sensitization to the other allergenic protein?
Lab rats/mice living in controlled environments have even less risk of sensitization to allergens?
“Besides, if mammals did produce allergic reactions to any foreign protein in the blood stream, don’t you think we’d all be going into anaphylactic shock anytime we had a repeat viral infection with like the Epstein-Barr or rhinovirus?”
Very good question. With billions of years of evolution, it is a fine tuned process. Any organism with that level of sensitivity would have gone extinct. As I have pointed out before, it takes a lot less protein to cause sensitization than it does to elicit a reaction. In the case of food allergy, oral intake of allergen involves huge amounts of protein compared to what you might breathe in from an virus infected sneeze/cough mist.
This brings up another interesting possibility. Flublok advertises that they have 45*3=135 mcg of viral protein, 3X the normal amount. If next year’s strains are selected to be the same as this year’s, risk of anaphylaxis due to anti-influenza IgE could become a real problem.
LurkeyLoo @195: I rather suspect he doesn’t, as he seems to be suffering from poorly controlled mental illness, which is actually more sad than it is funny. Otherwise I’d be posting a lot more “Mandrake” jokes.
Ref #189 –>>APV.
@APV
Since you’re so interested in how the immune system works, I highly recommend this video series.
In addition I suggest checking out this helpful blog post hosted by Dr. Jennifer Raff: How the Immune System Works
http://violentmetaphors.com/2014/04/20/how-the-immune-system-works/#more-1276
Chris #199,
“Has any influenza vaccine in the USA caused a hundred pediatric deaths in the USA due to allergic reactions?”
I believe that would not be the appropriate question to ask.
The question is how many of the 15 million people with food allergies developed it because of a vaccine.
The Japanese research I cited was to show that vaccines do indeed cause food allergies. In the US, I have not found equivalent studies at all. If you don’t study the problem, how can you be sure it does not exist?
The problem I am talking about is not immediate vaccine induced allergic reaction causing deaths. That is well known, well documented. The problem is vaccine induced sensitization which may occur weeks after the vaccination.
” Oh, and vaccine manufacturing has changed in the three decades.” Not as much as we would like. We still grow viruses in chicken eggs as it has been done for 70 years.
New vaccine technology uses insect (moth larvae) cells and Madin Darby Canine Kidney (MDCK) to grow viruses. For a patient with egg allergy, avoiding egg is difficult enough. Imagine someone with moth allergy trying to avoid moth dust.
MDCK could cause autoimmunity to your kidney because they have similar proteins? (“molecular mimicry”).
Looks like with our new vaccine technology, we are not making it safer, we are jumping from the frying pan into the fire …
@APV #201
“Not sure I understand. How did the animals develop sensitization to the other allergenic protein?
Lab rats/mice living in controlled environments have even less risk of sensitization to allergens?”
Because the proteins are cross reactive: they share a similar sequence of amino acids meaning that antibodies to one will recognize the other. People with latex allergies also have an allergic reaction to a number of fruits and vegetables because some plants produce a protein called hevenin which is structurally similar enough to be recognized latex antibodies. So someone with a latex allergy could have a severe reaction to an avocado, even if it’s the first time they’ve had one.
http://latexallergyresources.org/latex-cross-reactive-foods-fact-sheet
“As I have pointed out before, it takes a lot less protein to cause sensitization than it does to elicit a reaction.”
You’re confusing the two concepts. Sensitization refers to the generation of anti-allergen IgE antibodies, which occurs slowly and may not produce symptoms. But once those antibodies have been produced, the immune system can produce them again, but much more quickly and in abundance. This is the reaction, the massive dose of IgE that causes a cascade that results in symptoms from a tiny dose of the allergen. This is why once diagnosed, people are advised to avoid repeated exposures to the allergen, it gets worse over time and even trace amounts can cause reactions.
“If next year’s strains are selected to be the same as this year’s, risk of anaphylaxis due to anti-influenza IgE could become a real problem.”
Your calculations are incorrect. There are a total of 45μg, 15μg from each of the three strains, it’s no different than any other year’s flu vaccine. And to your second point: it would have already happened. From 2000-2006, the A/New Caledonia/20/99(H1N1)-like virus was included in the influenza vaccine, yet there were no widespread reports of anaphylaxis, either from the vaccine or natural infection.
Further, the Fluzone High-Dose vaccine contains four times the amount of antigen as the does the regular vaccine. If your ideas are correct, anyone who got that vaccine should go into anaphylactic shock upon receiving another. But there haven’t been any reports of that since its introduction in 2009.
So do you think that if the flu shot I had this year was grown on some of them there canine kidney cells causes that sensitivity you have been yammering on about, then one of my dogs licks me on broken skin that I might either drop dead or start howling with them when an ambulance goes by or having an uncontrollable craving for a pig ear …… Or something?
Is that how that works on your planet?
I think this is my favorite so far from the Smith-Norowitz
MPUIgE factory. I guess “not vaccinated but infected” would have blown the N < 10 rule or something.APV: “I believe that would not be the appropriate question to ask.
The question is how many of the 15 million people with food allergies developed it because of a vaccine.”
No. You do not get to dictate what questions I ask. I want to know about the relative risk only between the vaccine and the disease. If you are making claims the vaccine used in the USA causes more harm than the disease, you need to provide that data. So far you have failed.
And food allergies are another topic.
Influenza has killed five children in the USA this year. The past couple of years it killed over a hundred. If you believe that allergic reactions to the influenza vaccines approved for use in the USA cause more harm than influenza, then you must provide the verifiable evidence that there were at least a hundred antipathetic shock incidents verified from the influenza vaccine in children each year in the USA.
Hey! You made the claim, you have got to show it is relevant. Provide that evidence.
“antipathetic”… stupid spell check:
“anaphylactic shock” (and yes, there is a red line showing it is not a word in the vocabulary)
So, yeah, prove that more kids die from allergic reactions to the vaccine than from influenza in the USA. Which is not Japan (a country that decided to bow to anti-vaccine pressure to delay pertussis vaccines, only to have over forty babies die from pertussis).
APV @157: 40 times over a few years for a kid.
APV @185: Yes, easily 40 separate injections.
h__p://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html
Boldface added to emphasise the non-orangeness of the apple and the non-appleness of the orange being compared.
@Narad #207
I guess using infants as controls for the immune response of young and middle aged adults makes an N=8 study rock solid.
LurkeyLoo @195: I rather suspect [Coleman Adamson] doesn’t, as he seems to be suffering from poorly controlled mental illness, which is actually more sad than it is funny.
Is he, though? It’s as if US politicians have spent the half-century since “The Paranoid Style in American Politics” was published, using it as a manual, so now the beliefs of Coleman Adamson and Mick Carlotta don’t really seem too out-of-step with the Tea Party movement or with some state legislatures.
And you imagine that Sf-9 is cross-reactive with every type of cell from all moths how?
^ “type of
cellproteinaceous debris”Kreblozen #184 Part 1,
Thanks for the detailed response.
“http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X04002014”
Like other similar studies, they are looking at the “hygiene hypothesis”.
They are looking to see if lack of natural illness (due to vaccines) is the cause of allergies.
That is a completely different investigation and inapplicable to what we are discussing.
We are talking about vaccine ingredients directly inducing allergies.
I already covered the Smith-Norowitz et. al study in #194.
“I can’t find any good evidence that any vaccine induces allergies,”
Gelatin in vaccines was proved to be the cause of gelatin allergy.
Kuno-Sakai H, Kimura M. Removal of gelatin from live vaccines and DTaP-an ultimate solution for vaccine-related gelatin allergy.Biologicals 2003;31:245-9.
Egg in the flu vaccine caused the development of egg allergy.
Serological examination of IgE- and IgG-specific antibodies to egg
protein during influenza virus immunization
BY N. YAMANE AND H. UEMURA
Polysorbate 80 allergens: Pl. see #113.
“Intact proteins get absorbed in the intestines?”
The anti-ulcer drug study says:
“Thus, allergens or allergenic epitopes that survive the gastrointestinal transit in
an intact form can trigger mucosal sensitization”.
So, yes, may be I can re-word that part. The point I am making is any medical intervention that bypasses natural protections that keep food proteins away from the part of the immune system where sensitization occurs, creates a problem. PPI and vaccines are both examples of such interventions.
The 27 year old study says:
“Contrary to
the IgG response, IgE specific to Fl rose significantly after immunization in a
considerable number of vaccinees, the results suggesting that influenza vaccine
may play a role in sensitizing an individual to egg protein.”
You wrote:
“You have grossly misunderstood the study you linked to in which different food proteins were injected into mice interperitoneally and specific IgG1 antibody serum levels measured.”
The study says:
“Primary and secondary immune responses (as measured by specific IgG1 antibody serum levels)”
So I believe you may have misunderstood it. The authors are clarifying that the SECONDARY immune response was obtained by IgG1 measurement. The PRIMARY is IgE mediated, Type I immediate hypersensitivity reactions.
So they studied both types of reactions and they did see robust primary response, in other words IgE mediated food allergies.
Food allergies of major interest in humans are IgE mediated and it would make no sense for them to just focus on IgG1 in studies on mice.
So all the IgG based arguments in your post do not apply.
“That’s milk and egg allergies, and according to your reference it’s “1-2% for young children and 0.2-0.4% in the general population”. Since most people lose their egg allergy by the time they reach adulthood, and plenty of adults get influenza vaccines your calculations don’t seem to work out.”
I interpreted that as milk and egg 1-2% EACH. In any case, it is a “back-of-the-envelope” prediction. I am showing that the prediction numbers are not off by orders of magnitude.
Kreblozen #184 Part 2,
Asthma
“Are you really suggesting that the maximum of 100 µg polysorbate per dose of any vaccine causes lung damage when injected intramuscularly?”
With sheep, they “washed their lungs out” to reliably induce lung injury in every animal.
Flucelvax has more than 1mg of Polysorbate 80.
https://mttmblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/flusum2014.pdf
It is not inconceivable that with several Polysorbate 80 containing vaccines injected into a kid , some of them will sustain lung injury. The only way to confirm is to perform a study using vaccines with and without Polysorbate 80.
“There were 13,359 vaccinated children and only 94 unvaccinated children aged 1-17 years in the study, so it isn’t very surprising that none of the unvaccinated children aged 1-10 years were not asthmatic.”
One would have expected 2-4 of the unvaccinated kids to develop asthma.
Further:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/439840
says:
“The strongest evidence in support of a possible association between vaccination and asthma comes from a prospective study of a cohort of children born in 1977 in Christchurch, New Zealand. In that study there was no evidence of asthma after 5 to 10 years of follow-up among 23 children who received neither pertussis nor oral polio vaccine, whereas asthma developed in >20% of 1184 children who had been vaccinated.”
Some pertussis vaccines (DTaP) contain Polysorbate 80.
Not a good idea to dismiss such findings …
HiB and diabetes:
“Yet large epidemiological studies have found not a ghost of a hint of an association. See PMID: 12182385”
As I wrote in my blog:
“Since not all HiB vaccines contain pancreatic digest, one can expect the mixed results that are published.”
The study you cite does not say whether the HiB administered contained pancreatic digest.
“I suggest you find a hobby that doesn’t put children’s lives at risk”
Food allergy is not a hobby for me. My son has multiple food allergies and asthma. Obviously his doctors did not know what caused it. So I had to do the research myself to understand what risks are involved in my family’s future vaccinations. I am not putting children’s lives at risk. The FDA’s unsafe vaccines have put my child’s and millions of other people’s lives at risk.
Do you suppose a sample size of 13453 is enough to test whether increasing number of vaccinations is associated with allergies and atopic disorders?
Or will all that be outweighed by an N=1 anecdote?
Slan Williams #204, #205,
You have to understand that it takes very little allergen to cause sensitization, but a lot more allergen to elicit an allergic reaction.
DTaP followed by DTaP produced no anaphylaxis.
Sensitization but no elicitation.
DTaP followed by MMR produced anaphylaxis.
Sensitization followed by elicitation.
MMR has more gelatin than DTaP.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9949325
“There are a total of 45μg, 15μg from each of the three strains, it’s no different than any other year’s flu vaccine. ”
That’s the traditional egg based vaccine. Flublok has 3X.
High dose has 4X but only so because 65+ have weaker immune responses. If high dose were administered to the general population, you might see anaphylaxis.
herr doktor bimler @212:
You have a point, alas. It’s getting harder and harder these days to tell the right-wing loonies from people with actual mental illness. That said, the fellow who had the Facebook post about hearing voices does strike me as frankly paranoid, in a clinical sense. It made me sad, as a good friend of mine had a first-time psychotic episode this spring and isn’t doing too hot at the moment, either. I worry.
Sigh…
“Have you ever seen a commie get a flu shot, Mandrake?”
herr doktor bimler #217,
“13453 sample size”
They did not study food allergies.
I have already posted studies clearly showing vaccines causing food allergies in studies that were designed to look for it.
Narad #213,
“And you imagine that Sf-9 is cross-reactive with every type of cell from all moths how?”
No. The fall armyworm (Sf-9) is native to the tropical regions of the western hemisphere from the United States to Argentina.
So you just have to avoid those areas. Easy.
Chris #208,
“If you are making claims the vaccine used in the USA causes more harm than the disease, you need to provide that data.”
I did not make those claims. That’s why I am saying your questions are inappropriate.
As I wrote before vaccines save lives. I want safer vaccines that result in less suffering for recipients.
Rene Najera #172
“So does, you know, food.”
Food does not cause allergy unless you take it with proton pump inhibitors. So PPI should carry a label.
citations here again:
Flu vaccine can cause egg allergy in healthy non-allergic individuals.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2249232/pdf/epidinfect00008-0113.pdf
“Contrary to the IgG response, IgE specific to Fl rose significantly after immunization in a considerable number of vaccinees, the results suggesting that influenza vaccine may play a role in sensitizing an individual to egg protein.”
May have contributed to Japan stopping mandatory influenza vaccination of school children in 1987.
Same mechanism, different allergen:
Kuno-Sakai H, Kimura M. Removal of gelatin from live vaccines and DTaP-an ultimate solution for vaccine-related gelatin allergy.Biologicals 2003;31:245-9.
Further research:
Summary:
Childhood Immune Disorder Risk Map per the Richet Allergy
Model
https://foodallergycauses.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/cidm1.pdf
Details:
https://foodallergycauses.wordpress.com/
Science Mom #161,
“No it isn’t present. Maize and wheat aren’t even present in the final product.”
How would you know? If you read Merck’s allergen report, even they don’t test it. There’s no FDA spec. why would they waste their money testing?
Here in Never Never Land we NEVER take vaccines.
I have never had a flu shot. I have never had the flu.
Of course we all suffer from low mercury counts. I guess that’s the price we must pay……
Chris #160,
“APV: “DTaP followed by MMR produced anaphylaxis.”
Try actually reading the link you provided. They were “monovalent measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines containing 0.2% gelatin as stabilizer”… and it was in Japan. It has nothing to do with the trivalent MMR used in the USA. Japan had a different MMR vaccine.”
I quoted the relevant Japanese study along with my MMR comment. I provided the 2003 Japanese study as an example of gelatin in vaccines causing gelatin allergy.
US vaccines still contain gelatin and still cause reactions.
10 years later the FDA has learned nothing:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131108090127.htm
Hellanthus #171,
“I’m not a doctor so I could be way off, but it seems to me that, if you are taking immunosuppressant drugs, that may not be the right time to get a vaccine.
Not necessarily because the vaccine will create troubles, but simply because it will be much less likely to work.”
Good point. The package insert has no warning about inhaled corticosteroid use. So there is vaccine efficacy risk as well as infection risk.
I can’t read the minds of the Polysorbate 80 manufacturers.
That is exactly what you are doing… with your argument that when the marketing droids of a Japanese chemical supplier decline to word their non-allergenic claims in absolute terms, they are therefore asserting that the product does contain allergens (yet to be determined, despite ominous statements elsewhere about peanut oil).
@Tim #131–your tone suggests you don’t know anything about vaccines. The correct answer is any severely immunocompromised patients I see in my office are brought in through the back door to an exam room. I would, however, advise anyone in my exam room to avoid sitting next to you, but I’m sure as soon as they saw how far your head is up your ass they’d be giving you some distance of their own accord.
herr doktor bimler #227,
“I can’t read the minds of the Polysorbate 80 manufacturers.
That is exactly what you are doing… with your argument that when the marketing droids of a Japanese chemical supplier decline to word their non-allergenic claims in absolute terms, they are therefore asserting that the product does contain allergens (yet to be determined, despite ominous statements elsewhere about peanut oil).”
No I am merely pointing out their test results.
“In rat study, Polysorbate80(HX2)TM triggered less histamine release from rat mast cells compared to conventional Polysorbate80 formulations”.
Polysorbate 80 contains enough allergen to cause elicitation as the test demonstrates clearly.
As I wrote before, it means more than enough allergen is present to cause sensitization. Whether it is maize, wheat, peanut, hazelnut or sesame allergens, they have to tell us.
The basic truth is that if people do not have vaccines, they can die. If anybody has seen a young child gasping for air because they had not been given MMR vaccine; or a child suffering from encephalitis because of no vaccines, then they would not question whether any vaccine is harmful to any individual. It is those ignorant people who refuse to vaccinate either themselves or their children should be charged with child abuse. There will come a time when preventable diseases become rife again and infant and child mortality will rise to dizzy heights again. Influenza kills, and if there is any way of preventing the disease it should be used.
BTW Try some delicious PETER PAN peanut butter to mop up the dietary mercury.
http://www.naturalnews.com/044339_dietary_mercury_heavy_metals_removal.html
CDC sez…..
“Since 2001, with the EXCEPTION of some INFLUENZA (flu) vaccines, THIMEROSAL (mercury) is not used as a preservative in routinely recommended childhood vaccines.
Thimerosal is a mercury-containing preservative used in some vaccines and other products since the 1930’s. There is no convincing evidence of harm caused by the low doses of thimerosal in vaccines, except for minor reactions like redness and swelling at the injection site. However, in July 1999, the Public Health Service agencies, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and vaccine manufacturers agreed that thimerosal should be reduced or eliminated in vaccines as a precautionary measure.”
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/thimerosal/index.html
WOW! Did Dr. HOOK Orenstein have a case of a conscience? We know he had NO PROBLEM shooting up new born humans with high mercury content vaccines from 1986 – 1999. Could Verstraeten’s 1999 Report of a vaccine/ Thimerosal link to AUTISM, LANGUAGE AND SLEEP DISORDERS, had anything to do with this change?
WHICH INFLUENZA VACCINES STILL CONTAIN MERCURY?
Do they give these to pregnant women?
Constant gardeners want to know.
MEMORY HOLE MACHINE:
President Obama said “never never” to 2009 swine flu vaccine for his family:
“Despite the fact that Obama on Friday declared a national emergency in response to the H1N1 outbreak, he apparently doesn’t deem it enough of a threat to have his two daughters vaccinated against the virus.
Such double standards have led media pundits to call for Obama to get his daughters vaccinated on live television, in an effort to encourage American parents to do the same for their kids. The swine flu vaccination program, which was initially intended to be a “mass” inoculation covering the entire population, has been rejected by a majority of Americans who harbor deep suspicions about dangerous additives contained in the vaccine such as mercury and squalene.
In a Campaign For Liberty video message, former Presidential candidate Ron Paul labeled the vaccination program a “failure,” and slammed Obama for failing to follow the same advice he gave to the nation.
“It’s interesting to note that the President’s children have not gotten their shots and the explanation for this is it hasn’t been available to them – now that’s a little bit hard to buy when you think that probably anything the President wants can be available for their children,” said Paul, adding, “So in a way he’s made his decision not to give his children these inoculations – so if he has freedom of choice on this, I would like to make sure that all the American people have the same amount of freedom of choice.”
http://www.infowars.com/ron-paul-questions-why-obama-daughters-havent-taken-swine-flu-vaccine/
DID OBAMA HAVE INSIDER INFORMATION?
“Finnish and international researchers recently found a conclusive link between the Pandemrix swine flu vaccine and new cases of narcolepsy,” AFP reports.”
HELSINKI — The Finnish government and major insurance companies announced Wednesday they will pay for lifetime medical care for children diagnosed with narcolepsy after receiving the swine flu vaccine.
“The compensation will provide much-needed financial assistance for the families, although it cannot take away the emotional distress caused by this condition,” Social Services and Health Minister Paula Risikko said in a statement.
Finnish and international researchers recently found a conclusive link between the Pandemrix swine flu vaccine and new cases of narcolepsy, a chronic nervous system disorder which causes people to often uncontrollably fall asleep.
The Finnish Pharmaceutical Insurance Pool (LVP), which represents insurance companies, said Wednesday it would honour all insurance claims in this category.
LVP said it would review each claim individually to calculate the scope of the payout.
The Finnish government meanwhile agreed to cover any medical costs exceeding the insurance claims.
In Finland, 79 children between the ages of four and 19 developed narcolepsy after receiving the Pandemrix vaccine in 2009 and 2010.
Of these cases, an unusually high number, 76, also suffered from bouts of cataplexy, suffering hallucinations or paralysing physical collapses, according to Finnish research.”
http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3443
CHECK THIS OUT!
FDA Approves Experimental H5N1 Bird Flu Vaccine with Reactive AS03 Adjuvant for U.S. Stockpile
http://www.nvic.org/FDA-Approves-Squalene-H5N1-Bird-Flu-Vaccine.aspx
To the people (for example Lawrence) who said my link in response 1 has not been confirmed in humans, I’m not sure what they base that on. See for example:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22423139
which is a randomized placebo controlled study in children
and
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21880755
Also, its been further confirmed in mice.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20335492
and I don’t know why you believe that if vaccines damage mouse immune systems you shouldn’t be worried that they don’t damage human immune systems.
So far as I know none of this has been rebutted in studies of humans either.
To the people (for example Lawrence) who said my link in response 1 has not been confirmed in humans, I’m not sure what they base that on. See for example:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22423139
which is a randomized placebo controlled study in children.
You can find more confirmation at my website. I tried to post but apparently too many links.
@ APV
Missing my point.
As you missed my point when I mentioned neti pot way upthread.
(my point was, don’t wash away your nasal mucus and it will do its job at protecting your olfactory nerve)
In my view, it’s not the vaccine manufacturers’ responsibility to write down stuff like this. Unless you want every vaccine dose to come with package inserts the size of a phonebook listing every intervention, medical or otherwise, known to man.
And anyway, they do mention it, in general terms (see below).
You are taking some drug and are planning to receive some other medical treatment? For Pete’s sake, it’s up to you to ask your doctor about potential interactions. Write a list down, or something. Drugs are not sugar pills.
And it’s your doctor’s responsibility as well – hence almost all health practitioners I met asking me if I’m taking any medication.
Anyway, I advice you to read the insert packages again. I went and read <a href="http://www.immunize.org/packageinserts/" a few of them here and they all mention the risks of allergic reactions and the potential negative interactions in immuno-compromised people (generally section number 5, subsections 5.3, 5.4).
The later would include potentially people taking corticosteroids.
One insert (flumist) is reporting a test of the vaccine on children, and the method section clearly stated that the subjects were selected as not having asthma or being treated with steroids prior to vaccination. So obviously vaccine scientists know of this potential interaction.
But really, if you have a medical condition, ask your doctor about vaccination. It’s his/her job.
Botched link.
Here we go again
natphilosopher,
You asked:
The link you gave is to a study looking at the possibility of influenza vaccines making the recipient more susceptible to non-influenza respiratory virus infections, not other strains of influenza. Personally I would gladly exchange influenza for a common cold.
Maybe this will make you happier.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21880755
Getting a flu shot is your right. I’m not trying to discourage you. Do what you think is right. I just hope you won’t try to impose it on me and my kids.
I would point out, however, that the flu shot, in years when it is effective, may protect you from flu that year, assuming you would have gotten it otherwise. Personally, I’ve never had a flu vaccine, and I also don’t recall ever having the flu. Maybe I did when I was a kid, and forget, but that was a long time ago.
However, the flu shot won’t do you any benefit the next year, according to any research I’ve seen. On the other hand, if it damages your immune response to other viruses or bacteria, and there seem to be papers showing that happens sometimes,
that damage may be forever. So weigh the benefit of having slightly less chance of getting flu one year, against the possible harm of being more likely to get other things forever.
APV,
Not true. Inducing allergies in animals is difficult, with special strains of mice having to be bred for the purpose, and adjuvants such as cholera toxin required to get an IgE response.
So what do you think would have been the most ethical course of action? If the vaccine is still, say, 45% effective, do you say “Hey, folks, we COULD give you 45% protection but since it’s not 100%, we’re giving you 0% instead”? Is that really the ethical thing to do? Did you even READ the article?
I think that the fate of comments which exercise common sense will not affect you in any way.
natphilosopher,
This study compares vaccinated children with cystic fibrosis, with healthy unvaccinated children, hardly a fair comparison, and states:
They argue that live attenuated vaccines may be better at inducing immunity, which seems sensible to me.
As long as you don’t work with immunocompromised patients or insist your children go to schools and infect the children of more socially responsible people, that’s fine.
You have about a 1 in 20 chance of getting influenza in any given year, and the vaccine reduces this substantially in a good year. even a 40% reduction in the chances of getting it in a year when the vaccine doesn’t match the circulating viruses very well makes it well worth getting the vaccine, in my opinion.
You are either extraordinarily lucky or you are mistaken. I have had influenza several times, once as a child and a couple of times as an adult (thanks to working in a hospital, I suspect), once badly enough to put me on my back for two weeks, followed by a few weeks of feeling like I was 90 years old. That highly motivates me to avoid the experience in future.
If you really haven’t had influenza and you are approaching old age, you really should consider getting the vaccine; it might save your life.
That’s why I get it every year .
I wouldn’t describe a 57% reduction in risk as “slightly less”. This proven substantial reduction in risk of getting influenza which might put me in the hospital or kill me, against a theoretical and unproven risk that I might possibly be more susceptible to colds or other strains of influenza? That doesn’t seem to be a difficult choice.
Also, I see no evidence that influenza vaccines “damage” immune response. The paper you cited suggested that wild influenza infection induces an increase in the frequency of virus-specific CD8+ T cells while vaccination does not, though it does induce a broader antibody recognition profile than infection. Both infection and vaccination generate virus-specific CD4+ T cell responses. Given a choice between getting influenza and the virus-specific CD8+ T cells, or getting the vaccine instead without the virus-specific CD8+ T cells, give me the vaccine any day.
The 57% reduction in influenza risk I refer to is for this year as described by Orac in his post. Most years the vaccine is even more effective.
So you don’t even read Milipore’s spec sheets? They also list all possible allergens but there is no reasonable way that they would be present in the final product. It’s not as though they just go to the Wesson factory and dip into their vats for product. These are pharmaceutical grade. You made the claims so the onus is upon you to provide evidence that any of the listed allergens are even in the final product.
@Chris Hickie #230
@ Tim #62 –Julian Frost (#74) is exactly correct. Besides infants too young to be vaccinated being at risk from the unvaccinated child coming into my waiting room with …, I have other children who are immune-suppressed … and either cannot be vaccinated or have lost their vaccine immunity from medical treatments. I REFUSE to let my waiting room be where they catch a VPD from some ignorant parent’s unvaccinated child. .
Ahh. So there is a ‘backdoor’. — A backdoor they apparently go into to be escorted to the ‘waiting room’. Huh, interesting. I was mearly inquiring if the LAIVed kids would recieve the same ostracization as the unvaxed ones at your office (with respect to immonocompromised kids).
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2014/09/30/anti-vaccine-not-pro-safe-vaccine-vaccination-described-as-rape/#comment-360707
@APV #219
I spent the morning digging into this, and it looks like you’re taking a situation that requires a very specific set of circumstances and trying to apply it generally. In the study you cited, Nakayama et al found that after administering DTaP, a small number of patients had allergic reactions to the MMR vaccine. The administering the vaccines in reverse did not cause the same reaction which suggests that there was something about the DTaP vaccine that was allergenic. Further research found that a small number of patients had a a specific HLA antigen) that made them more susceptible to this reaction, so the researchers recommended that gelatin be removed from certain types of vaccines administered in Japan. The government and vaccine manufacturers agreed, and adverse reactions to vaccines fell quickly.
A few years later, a group at the CDC replicated the study using data from the VAERS database to determine whether or not something similar was occurring in the US. They found no increase in allergic responses following DTaP vaccination. Nakayama’s group responded to the Pool et al study with the following letter to the editor in the journal Pediatrics (it’s behind a paywall, so here’s a portion of it):
And here is the response from Pool’s group in the same link (emphasis mine):
The research relating to the HLA antigen is here here.
The research of the two groups suggests the following: in a small portion of the Asian population with a certain HLA phenotype, injection with a certain type of gelatin combined with an adjuvant can produce sensitization to gelatin, not that vaccines cause widespread food allergies.
I have another long comment awaiting moderation, so I’ll take a stab at APV’s claims about plysorbates containing allergenic proteins:
Polysorbates are produced by treating sorbitol and a fatty acid with an excess of ethylene oxide in a pressure vessel while moderating the temperature because ethoxylation is exothermic and potentially explosive. Ethylene oxide is used as a sterilizing agent at lower temperatures and pressures. How do you propose proteins of any kind survive that special hell?
Tim,
Why would a pediatrician ostracize the child of responsible parents?
There is a big difference between the enormous number of viruses emitted from a person infected with a viral respiratory infection (up to 20,000 viral particles per exhalation in this study), and the tiny number of viruses that might be shed by someone who has had the LAIV. According to the CDC:
APV,
What occupation do you have that relates to food allergies, and what qualifications in immunology do you have that equip you to contradict the findings of scientists and doctors who have thoroughly researched this area? I spent two years studying immunology and passed exams on the subject, yet I wouldn’t consider myself well-educated enough to challenge the conclusions of these scientists.
If you are not employed in this area and have no qualifications (as your writings strongly suggest), then it is a hobby.
I’m sorry to hear that. Have these food allergies been confirmed by double-blind placebo-controlled tests? Skin sensitivity tests? Specific IgE? It is very easy to fool yourself into believing you or your child have food allergies. For example, in this study 65.5% of children who were believed to be allergic to milk were found not to be on double-blind testing (many parents still refused to believe the results and to reintroduce milk to their child’s diet).
There are also many quack clinics who offer bogus allergy testing, mostly for IgG antibodies to food proteins, which are useless for diagnosing allergies.
Assuming he has been properly diagnosed, which foods is he allergic to? The most common food allergies by far are to milk, eggs, peanuts, tree nuts, soy, wheat, fish and shellfish. I can see no plausible way that any of these could be caused by vaccines. Influenza vaccines contain vanishingly tiny amounts of egg proteins, but which vaccines contain fish or shellfish, or peanuts (peanut oil has never been used as an adjuvant in any commercially produced vaccine, before that old canard resurfaces)?
You seriously believe that Googling scientific papers you clearly do not understand is superior to decades of research by thousands of highly trained scientists? Doesn’t that strike you as just a little arrogant? You don’t even seem to understand the difference between washing out a sheep’s lungs with a 0.5% detergent solution and injecting tiny amounts of the same detergent in a vaccine intramuscularly, and still insist the latter can cause asthma, despite me pointing this out, which is mind-bogglingly ignorant. You might want to use your Googling skills to look up the Dunning-Kruger effect.
If your alarmist scaremongering dissuades a single person from vaccinating their child you are most definitely putting their life at risk. How can you possibly argue otherwise?
Millions? It is estimated that in the US there are 150 deaths each year due to food-induced allergic reactions. You haven’t presented any convincing evidence that food allergies are caused by the vaccines on the current schedule in the US (or anywhere else). As I have pointed out, there is good evidence to show that vaccines do not cause allergies, autoimmune diseases or any of the other illnesses you have claimed they are responsible for. As Sian has elegantly explained, the situation in Japan with regard to gelatin was very unusual and very rare, due to a combination of genetics and poorly hydrolysed gelatin.
Speaking of which, this looks interesting (Medical Xpress story here).
I look for the overuse of words such as may, might, crank and quack. If people have to prove their point using sarcasm, possibilities and name-calling, I’m usually not interested in what they have to say. You lost me pretty early in your rant.
APV #227
“I provided the 2003 Japanese study as an example of gelatin in vaccines causing gelatin allergy.”
In fact, that 1999 study compared vaccination with DTaP followed by monvovalent MMR, with vaccination with trivalent MMR followed by DTaP.
The study concluded that gelatin-containing DTaP vaccine *might* cause gelatin allergy.
Your citation doesn’t support your bald, generic and consequently, highly misleading claim about “vaccines causing gelatin allergy”.
Credit to Sian #247 for doing the work that you have failed to do, in following up what has happened since that study.
You say that 10 years on the FDA have learned nothing, but your own link refutes you
“Gelatin allergy is very rare,” said allergist Richard Weber, M.D., ACAAI president.
“Many food intolerances can be mistaken as allergies. Those who believe they might have an allergy should be tested and diagnosed by an allergist before taking extreme avoidance measures or skipping vaccinations. The flu shot is an important vaccine and can even be life-saving for individuals that are at an increased risk for severe side effects associated with the flu.”
You are clearly a know-nothing who misquotes, misinterprets and mangles the science, every which way except accurately.
APV #227
“I provided the 2003 Japanese study as an example of gelatin in vaccines causing gelatin allergy.”
In fact, that 1999 study compared vaccination with DTaP followed by monovalent MMR, with vaccination with trivalent MMR followed by DTaP.
The study concluded that gelatin-containing DTaP vaccine *might* cause gelatin allergy.
Your citation doesn’t support your bald, generic and consequently, highly misleading claim about “vaccines causing gelatin allergy”.
Credit to Sian #247 for doing the work that you have failed to do, in following up what has happened since that study.
You say that 10 years on the FDA have learned nothing, but your own link refutes you
“Gelatin allergy is very rare,” said allergist Richard Weber, M.D., ACAAI president.
“Many food intolerances can be mistaken as allergies. Those who believe they might have an allergy should be tested and diagnosed by an allergist before taking extreme avoidance measures or skipping vaccinations. The flu shot is an important vaccine and can even be life-saving for individuals that are at an increased risk for severe side effects associated with the flu.”
You are clearly a know-nothing who misquotes, misinterprets and mangles the science, every which way except accurately.
How is this even a news story?
This happens pretty regularly with the flu vaccine due to the prolonged lead time needed to manufacture vaccine based on early surveillance, and an educated best guess as to variant is likely to be prominent for the North American flu season.
Well, here’s the thing….
I just looked over Mikey’s article again and comments that followed it ( I did however stay away from the FB page – I had enough of that on Friday) and
I wonder how many of his ardent followers know something about his background?
He misrepresents himself as a scientist: if you read his bio on healthranger.com, he carries on about his fabulous grades and science/ math background BUT then in an article in Natural News ( 19 July 2014) about his ‘brush with poverty”, he tells us that his degree is in TECHNICAL WRITING- that’s not a science or mathematics-
sure, he can say that he took courses in ANYTHING, so do most people with any sort of degree; people with degrees in fine arts or music usually need to take requirements in science and math; business majors may have to study these subjects as well. I know an older psychologist who had to study Latin and Greek ( to attend university in Ireland).
When he talks about his original studies ( high school interests), it seems he was involved with electronics and computers. He developed advertising software for e-mail. It can be argued that Natural News itself is a form of prolonged internet advertisement.
Similarly, when he writes about his studies concerning health and nutrition, he focuses upon ALTERNATIVE sources- such as Gary Null. He doesn’t have serious, systematic studies in science or medicine.
So Mike is not in a position to critique research in medicine and related topics- which he does every day.
He’s a salesman and a writer. He inflates his credentials and experience.
If any of his followers are still around, read about him:
first, from his own sites which I mentioned above and then, put his name into the search box located at the top of this page. And -btw- he makes lots of predictions that never pan out . Rational wiki has more on Mike.
It insists that they must, because of a Japanese manufacturer referring to degranulation of RBL-2H3 mast cells in vitro.
The amusing part is that the one he should be waving around isn’t exactly hard to find.
@karen
Care to explain to us how to meaningfully discuss flu vaccine effectiveness without the language of probability? If you pop open the pages of any science journal on any topic in the English language, you’re going to see tons of mays and mights, because that’s the way real science is written.
I was not trying to reproduce anything I was simply re-posting an article that I read. I am therefor not agreeing with it nor denying. I was under the assumption that this might be a place that we could spread ideas
BJ, why not state this in the first place when copy-pasting? Another thing, did it occur to you that what we post is usually something which we are on the line when not equipped with an appropriate disclaimer because, to me, your post is plagiarism beside being really outraging.
So before offering to meet someone here to discuss your point (in which I personally volunteer), ensure that all of us get the point across that it’s a copy-pasta and it is not something you endorse. That’s the basic minimum.
Alain
@karen
Did you even read the title of the blog? Your tone-trolling doesn’t speak well about your observational skills.
Slan Williams #247,
Thank you for researching and posting this.
Your post make my arguments stronger.
1) Basically, injecting food proteins such as gelatin can cause healthy people to develop an allergy.
2) Of course, people can have genetic predisposition increasing susceptibility.
Then there are c-section births that make those newborns significantly more susceptible for IgE synthesis.
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749%2812%2903130-2/fulltext
3) Hydrolyzed gelatin solved the problem. So breaking down the protein before injecting makes it safe at least from the perspective of allergy development. Clearly illustrating the danger of injecting intact proteins.
4) Some US vaccines still contain plain gelatin. Other vaccines contain hydrolyzed gelatin.
Since there are people of Asian origin living in the US, why has gelatin not been removed from vaccines?
Why no enforcement that all gelatin be hydrolyzed?
Why no package insert warning directed to people of Asian origin about the allergy risk posed by gelatin in the vaccine?
Of course, some Asian groups may be more susceptible but that does not mean other non-Asians are free of the risk.
Gelatin in vaccines are still causing problems in the US more than a decade after the Nakayama and Pool studies. Why?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131108090127.htm
If a landing aircraft pops a tire, you would expect to find the root cause and check ALL the tires before you take off again.
After the gelatin problem was identified, would you not expect that EVERY food protein in vaccines would have been thoroughly investigated the same way?
Would you not expect that there will be specific safe dose levels established and enforced for these allergens?
I am an engineer. We create specifications before we design products. We have tests that demonstrate compliance to the specifications to qualify the product. If vaccines were engineered, I expect such clear specifications and tests for allergens. I am shocked by the FDA’s lackadaisical approach to vaccine manufacture that looks more like tinkering than engineering . Please prove me wrong by posting such a specification.
Why is the food allergy epidemic considered “an enigmatic epidemic”, “idiopathic etiology” when food proteins in vaccines have been clearly demonstrated as a possible cause?
As I wrote before, many vaccine/allergy studies have focused on the lack of natural infections (due to vaccines) as the cause for allergies. Not on vaccine ingredients as the cause.
Other than the Japanese studies, there does not seem to be studies specifically looking into food allergies and vaccines. Why?
If no controlled studies have been performed with and without say casein in vaccines, how can we claim that milk allergy is not caused by vaccines?
Your poor use and grasp of the English language is enough to discredit everything you say.
If people have to prove their point using sarcasm, possibilities and name-calling, I’m usually not interested in what they have to say
Possibly we are saddened to hear of your uninterest.
I am also disappointed that Karen couldn’t definitely say whether she was interested or not, but rather had to make her point using possibilities.
I was wondering about this:
Couldn’t mast cells be activated simply in the presence of surfactant agents? In this case, tween 80 sans allergens?
I remember vaguely something about this from my university years.
A Ggl scholar search turned out a few articles on this topic.
Example: The effect of surfactants upon mammalian cells in vitro. The authors insist that the surfactants were highly purified.
A bit old (1976), though.
The hygiene hypothesis isn’t really about vaccination, but rather about exposure.
In other words, it’s not the fact that we don’t get sick as often which is the issue, but the fact that we don’t encounter as many germ species in our rather homogeneous urban environments compared to the microbial diversity one could be exposed to in the countryside.
A few sub-hypotheses are focusing on us lacking some types of symbiotic/commensal bacteria or on the possibilities of us lacking interactions with bigger parasites, like helminth worms (I will need very strong evidence to be convinced by the latter one).
But us getting more allergies because we get less measles? Nope, not a main hypothesis.
Even more so since a few infectious diseases are threatening to make a come back, without any visible corresponding decrease in the number of allergies.
tl;dr: it’s not pathogens we are lacking, but variety in our friendly germs.
@Helianthus and Narad:
Presumably, anything that can bind to FcεRI receptors bound IgE could do it. Here’s a recent paper trying to find out how opioids trigger degranulation:http://mobile.journals.lww.com/anesthesia-analgesia/_layouts/oaks.journals.mobile/articleviewer.aspx?year=2004&issue=02000&article=00018#ath
Sarah – to whom are you speaking? Did you have some examples on that person’s “poor use and grasp of the English language”? Thanks.
That’s nice. I don’t care. As I’ve said many times before, I write about what interests me in a style that I enjoy. Fortunately, a lot of other people enjoy it too, but this is my hobby, my blog, and it’s done almost solely for my enjoyment. That, of course, and all that filthy pharma lucre. (That’s more sarcasm, in case you can’t tell.)
Supongo que nadie nunca dice nada creíble en español.
Rene – como no?
@Rene
It’s more powerful than that — anything said in Spanish is instantly false.
@ Krebiozen #249
Golly. Kute, kute, kute… That doesn’t sound like enough germinites to elicite a strong enough reaction for *contact immunity* to be effective. Or maybe the vaccines don’t have to be so strong afterall??
It still does not answer my query — Should immunocompromsed persons shun those who have been recently LAIVed or not??
APV #262
“Gelatin in vaccines are still causing problems in the US…”
Your link does not support your claim.
Your link also shows that your earlier citation for flu vaccine causing egg allergy is outdated.
In short, you have produced no up-to-date evidence to support your claims.
They should take the information provided by the CDC i.e.
and make a decision based on that and the nature of their condition. Since humanity is a seething mass of vaccine factories, squirting contagious aerosols out of almost every orifice, I imagine encountering a child post LAIV isn’t any more dangerous than traveling on a bus or working in an office. Probably less so.
Vaccines on the brain… “virus factories”, not “vaccine factories”,
@APV:
I’m glad you’ve seen the light on genetic predisposition. That will save me from having to give you a family tree of the obscure food allergies in my family. Still, a few questions:
1. My child has some uncommon food allergies. It’s really implausible that any of them could have been in any vaccination. Not has my child been on a proton pump
@APV
Nor has my child been on a proton pump. How do you explain these allergies?
2. If the immune system doesn’t come into contact with proteins from food normally, how do allergic reactions to food even occur?
Well I agree, Krebiozen — both for the one getting vaxed and the one that may be negatively impacted and whether the twain shall meet. Unfortunately, there are workplace/compulsory education/state ‘policy’ and color-of-law defacto cohersion to consider and it is not that simple for even an *informed* individual to do the right thing, is it??
Pamela: Do yourself, your kids, and your patients a favor, and find a new line of work and a life away from your kids. I know you think your daughter is worthless and damaged- but that’s mainly because you’re standing in her way and sabotaging her. Previously, I though only parents on AOA or at TMR could sink that low, but I guess your common sense fell out long ago. Or you just like hating your kids.
I hope your kids cut ties with you once they’re adults- or that maybe, you can recover that intelligence you once had. It’s too bad you never bothered to look into real solutions for your kids, or understood that ADD doesn’t equal mental retardation.
Krebiozen #250,
I am sure we have fine scientists and doctors way more qualified than me. If they had found a way to prevent food allergies or cure it, I would not be poking my nose in their business.
When the FDA approves Vioxx and it kills people more efficiently than it kills pain, you realize that there is more to this matter than having great scientists and doctors.
My son has had skin sensitivity tests and specific IgE tests. He has been prescribed Epipen. He spent a night in the ICU for an allergic reaction he suffered after receiving five vaccine shots in one sitting. The hospital reported that to the VAERS and sent his case to Johns Hopkins. They scratched their heads and came up with nothing. I don’t blame them. Given a five vaccine cocktail with a poorly characterized/undocumented soup of ingredients, how could they track anything down?
He is allergic to milk, eggs, peanuts and tree nuts. One bite of a Burger King veggie burger without cheese meant an ER visit.
Vaccines contain, egg, casein, agar directly listed. And as I have written before, Polysorbate 80 is a source of undisclosed, uncontrolled allergens.
Some studies have linked vaccines to asthma. Others have not.
Why has there not been a controlled investigation? The Japanese studies regarding gelatin were controlled, focused on an ingredient and clearly got down to root cause. Where is the equivalent study for asthma?
With Polysorbate 80, I am pointing out a possible mechanism. It can only be proved by a controlled study.
“You seriously believe that Googling scientific papers you clearly do not understand is superior to decades of research by thousands of highly trained scientists? Doesn’t that strike you as just a little arrogant?”
At least some doctors don’t have the time to study package inserts and stay up to date. One doctor thanked me for creating this:
https://mttmblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/flusum2014.pdf
Our doctor did not know that the oral typhoid vaccine had casein which could be a problem for my son. I had to tell him.
“If your alarmist scaremongering dissuades a single person from vaccinating their child you are most definitely putting their life at risk. How can you possibly argue otherwise?”
If someone believes my blog and ignores the FDA, that tells you the level of mistrust the FDA has earned.
That is not my fault. It is the FDA’s fault.
“The FDA’s unsafe vaccines have put my child’s and millions of other people’s lives at risk.”
I said lives at risk, not deaths. So yes, millions is correct. There are millions of people with life-threatening food allergies.
Poorly hydrolyzed gelatin:
Where’s the spec.? Where’s the enforcement? Why can that not happen again? Why can that not happen here?
Some vaccine still use plain gelatin … the FDA has not learned anything …
@APV #262
I considered refuting your last post point by point, but everything you say has been predicated on the idea that vaccine ingredients can cause allergies. Outside of one single, extremely specific incident, this has never been proven. This is a time when I really wish studies with negative results were published more often because it’s entirely possible that these ideas have been tested and found incorrect, but aren’t many researchers who are willing to publish a paper with negative results and still fewer publishers who would accept one. What we do have are retrospective studies that failed to show a correlation.
You mentioned that you were an engineer, though not what kind, but let me assure you that the biological systems involved in immunity are infinitely more complicated than anything humans have ever designed and your comment in your last post about science’s failure to completely demistify the mechanisms of food allergies shows how little you understand of laboratory research. What appears to you as “tinkering” is the best way we know how to tackle an extremely complicated problem. If you have a better idea, great. I doubt there isn’t a vaccine manufacturer who wouldn’t appreciate an approach to simplify their research. If you seriously think your ideas have traction, I suggest you either start taking classes and working towards earning a degree in immunology or partnering with someone who already has one. Then you can find a lab and apply for a grant from NIAID or another similar organization to research just this topic. If you want to affect change in how this research is done, you’re not going to do it by posting an idea supported only by a poor understanding of immunology and cherry picked internet research.
Krebiozen #250,
Shellfish – there is the possibility of cross reaction between human muscle protein tropomyosin and shellfish tropomyosin.
So not exactly a vaccine ingredient but an intramuscular shot risk.
@Krebolzen 243″
“You have about a 1 in 20 chance of getting influenza in any given year, ”
I’m guessing that number is measured in a vaccinated population.
Me: Personally, I’ve never had a flu vaccine, and I also don’t recall ever having the flu. Maybe I did when I was a kid, and forget, but that was a long time ago.
Krebolzen @243 You are either extraordinarily lucky or you are mistaken. I have had influenza several times,
Yes, maybe you are prone because you’ve been vaccinated? Ever think of that? I gave you 4 separate references suggesting that.
One of them is literally the only RPC study I’ve ever found that compared a vaccine injected into children to an actual placebo (not another vaccine) and followed their health (not the effectiveness of the vaccine on that specific disease) for more than 4 months. If you have cites to others, I’d love to see em.
So fa, you have given not a study to dispute any of the 4 I’ve given that each reported immune system damage.
When the FDA approves Vioxx and it kills people more efficiently than it kills pain
Are you sure you want to go there?
http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2012/05/30/500000_excess_deaths_from_vioxx_where.php
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2014/04/22/an-antivaccine-thinker-calls-for-a-boycott/#comment-328620
Shellfish – there is the possibility of cross reaction between human muscle protein tropomyosin and shellfish tropomyosin.
Anyone reacting to shellfish tropomyosin from self-tropomyosin sensitivity will react more strongly to steak or pork those being closer matches. Therefore steak allergy will be more common than shellfish allergy. But it isn’t.
Of course if people were becoming allergic to their own tropomyosin (due to needles, or any other reason) then they would not need shellfish consumption to make it obvious.
Due to having seasonal allergies to various pollen, along with horses and cat dander, I had to get allergy shots once a week for several years.
I am sure that APV would disaprove.
Not to jump into the middle of whatever pissing match this forum went into this weekend, but thought I’d offer something on the pathway for allergen response in the questions for food and non-contact.
Typically (and when I say typically, I mean not always in every case, but only to the better of our understanding), hypersensitivity goes to four main types. The type probably asked about in relation to food absorption would be Type4, which deals in the inflammatory bowel disease, as one example. Type4 hypersensitivity also deals with Type1 diabetes, MS, rheumatoid arthritis, peripheral neuropathy, and contact dermatitis — to name some examples.
Type4 deals with two mechanisms in T Lymphocytes. CD4+ (helper cell) respond to tissue antigens by secreting cytokines, which in turn stimulates inflammation and activates phagocytes. A cytokine is basically a chemical signal, it’s pretty powerful, in fact, patients that die from ebola virus actually die from the their own cytokine storm. Granted, facilitated by the viral invader. A phagocyte is what it sounds, a cell that engulfs or eats all kinds of crap and gets rid of whatever needs getting rid of. The other type is CD8+ T lymphocyte (cytotoxic) which is the killer cell that causes direct cell toxicity. So, two mechanisms involving cytotoxins & macrophage inflammation.
Okay, now when we talk about hypersensitivity, that means an inappropriate response, i.e. allergic reaction to some antigen. Now the question goes to how do you get that without direct contact, correct? Well there is some presentation by the tissue cell of the antigen. This cell is called a dendritic cell, also can be called a Langerhans cell, that presents the antigen to the CD4+ (T-helper), and from their you can get a positive feedback loop of cytokines without direct contact of the allergen. The result is some inappropriate response, possibly minor or even majorly/systemic. You can expose yourself to an antigen all your life and not have a problem, until you have that next exposure and then your system goes apeshit.
Now if you take this and say that I just proved the gut tie-in to vaccine injury, please don’t waste my time — first, I don’t prove anything, and secondly, no. Injury is supported through genetic predisposition of the individual, not the vaccine. Although a vaccine can be a rare trigger for some people to have their own system respond in maladaptive manner, in that they were already set to go into (what it means to be genetically predisposed). We just don’t know everything about our predispositions.
Just tonight you can catch a 60 mintues special on cancer pathways, very similar discussions in science. They are mapping genomic mutations and spending a ton of capital in information technology to analyze possibilities. We aren’t there yet, but only to reiterate the same message accross the open-sourced peer review university system, it’s not the vaccines. The snippet reports showing nothing more than spurious correlation that get blasted across activist websites really add nothing to a global problem where we have millions each year die to preventable disease. Some to supply logistics, or war, or plain dumbass stupidity.
Communities in our developed countries having 25-35% unvaccinated rates to highly contagious and sometimes deadly microbes. I don’t get it. Do people actually want health care providers to cut their kid’s throat open and shove a tube in it so that they won’t suffocate? Maybe parents need a mandatory six week rotation in an ER so they can see the reality of this mis-information campaign.
I guess I did jump in Orac, stupid me. Anyway, off the soapbox. I hope I provided some viable information on hypersensitivity. Maybe stop thinking of the human body in A must always equal B causation and effect, except of course microbes can kill, and they are very good at it.
Sian Williams #283,
“Outside of one single, extremely specific incident, this has never been proven.”
At least two:
Gelatin allergy:
Kuno-Sakai H, Kimura M. Removal of gelatin from live vaccines and DTaP-an ultimate solution for vaccine-related gelatin allergy.Biologicals 2003;31:245-9.
Egg allergy:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2249232/pdf/epidinfect00008-0113.pdf
and similar mechanism with ticks and alpha-gal:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3057034/
“infinitely more complicated than anything humans have ever designed”
So, I would expect an even more rigorous and systematic approach to problem solving. Manufacturing Polysorbate 80 does not seem like rocket science. Why can’t you have an allergen spec. and compliance check?
Your citation says:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1448377/
“We found an association between vaccination and the development of allergic disease; however, this association was present only among children with the fewest physician visits and can be explained by this factor.”
Sorry, I don’t understand why “fewest physician visits” can be used to throw away this association. It looks more like the authors did not like the results, so they are looking for a way to obfuscate? And further, the same pattern of lack of attention to detail. Not all DTaP are the same. Not all MMR are the same. They don’t note the ingredients. Seems like a lot of effort being wasted.
justthestats #278, #279,
“I’m glad you’ve seen the light on genetic predisposition”
My understanding is you cannot be born with an IgE mediated allergy. You could have a genetic predisposition to developing IgE when exposed to a protein.
The mechanisms I am aware of for sensitization are injections/vaccinations, insect bites, PPI, skin prick tests or feeding allergens (infant formula) to a newborn in the first few days of life.
‘uncommon food allergies”
If you could list them I may have a possible source …
“2. If the immune system doesn’t come into contact with proteins from food normally, how do allergic reactions to food even occur?”
My understanding is the sensitization and elicitation occur at different locations. If an allergen is injected into the muscle, IgE antibodies are created there (sensitization) and circulate in the blood. The IgE bind to the surface of mast cells and basophils in your mouth for example. When you now eat the allergen, the IgE detect the allergen and cause degranulation of the mast cells/basophils (elicitation of an allergic reaction).
So foods can safely come into contact with parts of the immune system in your mouth as long as they don’t have food specific IgE displayed on the mast cells/basophils.
Leigh Jackson #275,
“Your link does not support your claim.”
Sorry, what claim?
“Your link also shows that your earlier citation for flu vaccine causing egg allergy is outdated.”
I think you misunderstood. My citation is about flu vaccine causing sensitization (development of allergy in a non-allergic individual). The gummy bear article is talking about people who are already allergic to egg, reacting to a flu vaccine.
Leigh Jackson #254,
1999, I cited Nakayama et. al to show less protein was needed for sensitization than elicitation. You are right that they hypothesized a causal relationship.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9949325
2003, they proved it beyond doubt, hence recommending removal of gelatin.
Kuno-Sakai H, Kimura M. Removal of gelatin from live vaccines and DTaP-an ultimate solution for vaccine-related gelatin allergy.Biologicals 2003;31:245-9.
“You say that 10 years on the FDA have learned nothing, but your own link refutes you”
What has the FDA learned and what is the refutation?
Spiritual warfare at the SMITHSONIAN! Must see!
Science Mom #245,
The allergen report shows a big list of allergens that are not present because they are not used in the manufacturing process. No problem with that.
Then they claim maize and wheat are used in the manufacture but not present in the final product even though they don’t test for it! That’s the problem.
HDB @175
I followed your link to Mike Carlotta’s expertise on Voices In the Head where he was kind enough to provide a link toe the Wikipedia article on Microwave Auditory effect. However, I was disappointment the article was sadly lacking any information on the efficacy of tinfoil headgear in mitigating the effect. Perhaps Mike Adams could do a study.
Krebiozen #241,
“Inducing allergies in animals is difficult,”
If you want 100% of the animals to become allergic, if you want them to stay allergic for the duration of the experiment, it can get a little challenging I suppose. If you just inject allergen + alum into a set of mammals, I expect that some will develop allergy. That may not be enough for laboratory use.
“They don’t list food or other allergies as an adverse effects of vaccines because there is good evidence against this.”
There is no evidence against food allergies that you have posted. Did I miss it?
They are not paying attention to what the Japanese have found both w.r.t gelatin and eggs.
“with severe reactions such as anaphylaxis occurring somewhere in the order of one in a million doses.”
As I pointed out before, anaphylaxis is the tip of the iceberg. If there is enough allergen to cause anaphylaxis, there is way more than enough to cause sensitization. So for every anaphylaxis case , there are probably thousands of sensitizations that occur and are not accounted/studied as adverse events.
Vaccine clinical trials do not inspire confidence either. In many cases, they look for “solicited adverse events” which are usually mild effects for 7 days. We know that immune disorders will take a few weeks to develop. What is the difficulty in soliciting immune disorder events also and waiting for a few weeks post-vaccination? Then the studies report only solicited events only if they affect more than 5% of participants. Why?
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM263239.pdf
Then there are trials where the control group is injected with aluminum hydroxide. Why inject anything into the control group?
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM186981.pdf
Sian Williams #206,
May be we have been seeing allergic reactions (not anaphylaxis) caused by anti-influenza IgE for a long time. We just did not recognize it as such. The 15 mcg may be too small to cause anaphylaxis. There is this common claim by people that they got flu from the flu vaccine. Perhaps there is some truth to it. They did not get the flu but they are suffering an allergic reaction with flu like symptoms (runny nose, itchy eyes and it may even be biphasic with a primary IgE mediated and a secondary IgG mediated response).
These people may have been sensitized either by the previous year’s vaccine or a wild type infection and the current flu vaccine elicits a response that is mistaken as “getting flu from the flu shot”. Possible?
@APV – no.
My immunology lessons are a bit outdated, but I was under the impression that the IgE path and the IgG path are mutually exclusive (at least in the context of going toward normal immunity or toward allergy).
It’s used in one method of desensitization: keep exposing the patient to the allergen until his/her immune system shift from IgE to IgG.
I was also under the impression that a strong stimulation of the immune system is more likely to go toward the IgG path than the allergy route.
I could be wrong, but I would like a chance to change my mind with something else than speculations.
In other words, do you have any evidence toward your hypothesis?
Let’s see. It’s flu season, a wild, contagious virus is going around, and we are all congregating in some place to get our shots.
Wouldn’t it be some good chance for the wild virus to invite itself to the party and contaminate a number of non-immune people conveniently gathering in a enclosed place?
No need to multiply entities to explain the “got flu while getting the flu shot” claim.
APV:
Perhaps these people have little green men running around inside their bodies causing the symptoms? Until you provide evidence that stands up to scrutiny, rather than supposition, my supposition has as much going for it as yours.
So over to you. Where is the evidence? Who published it? Has it stood the test of time?
Tim,
It seems simple to me. Get your and your child’s vaccines according to the current schedule, and if you know someone on immunosuppressive drugs, for example, maybe keep away from them for a few days after the LAIV.
natphilosopher,
It’s interesting that you guess that, but no, that’s the number of people in an unvaccinated population who got influenza in a systematic review of influenza vaccine effectiveness (a Cochrane review that is behind a paywall). In this systematic review in well-matched years there were 12,237 placebo patients of which 844 got influenza that season, a risk of 1 in 14, meaning unvaccinated people can expect to get influenza every 14 years on average, a bit more often than I estimated.
Of the 15,877 LAIV vaccine recipients, 255 got influenza, a risk of 1 in 62, meaning that vaccine recipients were four times less likely to get influenza than those that didn’t get the vaccine.
I’m in my 50s so I would expect to have had influenza a few times, but I haven’t had it since I started getting the vaccine five years ago. None of your references suggest that the influenza vaccine increases the risk of getting influenza, in humans or mice. One study suggests that in mice vaccination against one strain of influenza made the mice immune to this strain but more susceptible to a different strain. This has not been replicated in humans but if it were it would argue for the addition of more strains in the vaccine, wouldn’t it? Vaccine development is an ongoing process, and we sometimes get surprises like this, but there is no doubt at all that we are better off with vaccines than without them.
That RPC study found that the vaccine recipients got less influenza (“TIV recipients had significantly lower risk of seasonal influenza infection based on serologic evidence”), but more colds than non-vaccine recipients (17 more colds in the vaccine group than in the placebo group). Perhaps getting influenza confers cross-immunity to cold viruses. Anyway, as I wrote before, I would much prefer a cold to influenza.
I see different responses to wild influenza viruses as compared to influenza vaccines. I see no evidence at all of “immune system damage”. It seems very clear to me that it is much better getting an influenza vaccine than not getting one.
@Tim #246:
I am not sure why you insist on using “ostracized” and “dirty” in your posts. A child who has received LAIV is not “dirty”, and the non-vaccinating parents I’ve banned from my practice can come back if they decide to vaccinate. But until then, I do not need their unvaccinated child bringing measles, whooping cough or chicken pox into my waiting room. And I sure don’t want to hear their anti-vaccine nonsense in the exam room.
I’m so glad I made popcorn prior to reading the comments today.
There is this common claim by people that they got flu from the flu vaccine. Perhaps there is some truth to it. They did not get the flu but they are suffering an allergic reaction with flu like symptoms…
So, please inform us as to what kind of allergic reaction includes high fever, chills, secondary pneumonia, etc.
Your ‘what if’ barrel – you’ve scraped it clean.
Heh.
APV,
It’s not about you poking your nose where it doesn’t belong, it’s about you not having the education to understand the papers you are reading and coming to ridiculous conclusions based on them. For example, you claim that the tiny amount of polysorbate 80 in some vaccines may cause asthma because it damages the lungs of sheep when their lungs are washed out with a 0.5% solution. That is ridiculous as claiming that a pieces of tissue paper could cause head injuries because it is made of the same substance as a baseball bat, especially when the epidemiological evidence shows no associations between vaccines and asthma.
As an engineer, how would you respond to a person without any education in engineering making claims about the subject that were based on a complete misunderstanding of how things work?
Vioxx is a very effective painkiller that has transformed many people’s lives and that may also increase the risk of heart attacks and strokes in those that take it in high doses for more than 18 months. The evidence isn’t clear, and it may be that other drugs in this class may have similar effects. There are risks and benefits, but the drug appears to be safe when taken in lower doses for less than 18 months. It certainly doesn’t kill people more efficiently than it kills pain, that’s just ignorant hyperbole.
That must have been a very frightening experience, and a very frustrating one. I can understand why you are grasping at straws to try to make sense of what happened. However, I think you have mistakenly seized upon vaccines as a cause of your son’s problems and you are so focused and invested in this that you are unable to take a step back and look at the subject with some perspective and objectivity.
Vaccines can cause allergic reactions in some susceptible individuals, we know that, though the CDC estimates that this is very rare, happening after only one in a million vaccines doses. You seem to be extrapolating from this one very unusual experience and making an unjustified leap to the conclusion that your son’s allergies were caused by vaccines, not just triggered by them.
You have presented no evidence at all that polysorbate 80 contains food proteins, and it is practically impossible that it does, given the manufacturing process.
The Institute of Medicine carried out an extremely thorough review of the evidence for various adverse effects of vaccines, including asthma three years ago, and concluded that there is no link. I suggest you read the report, which can be downloaded free of charge.
There is no evidence that suggests a need for one. This study of 167,240 children found no link between diphtheria, tetanus and whole cell pertussis vaccine, oral polio vaccine or measles, mumps and rubella vaccine and the risk of asthma. They concluded that the weak association between Hib and hepatitis B vaccines and asthma were probably due to health care utilization or information bias.
Why would anyone spend millions of dollars on a study to prove a hypothesis that is not only extremely implausible but also has evidence that directly contradicts it? The “possible mechanism” you cite is based on washing out sheep’s lungs with concentrated polysorbate solution, not injecting a tiny amount intramuscularly. It’s ridiculous.
I’m not talking about front line doctors, who may not be up to date with this subject, I’m talking about scientists who have spent their lives studying immunology and vaccines. You seem to think that your knowledge and understanding of the subject is superior to theirs when it very clearly is not.
So it’s OK for you to spread lies and misinformation about vaccines and if anyone believes you and doesn’t vaccinate their child, resulting in them dying of pertussis, it’s not your fault it’s the FDA’s? If you cry “fire” in a crowded theater and people are trampled to death, is that someone else’s fault too? The theater staff should have been more effective in stopping the panic?
Yet there is no reason at all to think these allergies were caused by vaccines. Are supermarkets putting millions of people’s lives at risk too by selling food?
Allergic reactions to gelatin in vaccines occur after only about one in two million doses, suggesting that only one in two million people have a gelatin aIlergy, despite the billions of doses of gelatin-containing vaccines that have been administered over the years.
I don’t know the specifications for gelatin in vaccines, but I am quite sure there is one. Vaccine manufacturers don’t want their customers dying due to use of their products, and they are well aware of the problem with gelatin. Hypoallergenic gelatin is available, and I’m sure it is used in vaccine manufacture, though I don’t have the time to dig around and find the relevant data. The rarity of gelatin allergy seems to me to be prima facie evidence of this.
I don’t think so:
True, but unless you have evidence that the route of adminsitration makes a difference–that when injected rather than than ingested aluminum at levels of exposure achievable by routine vacination is toxic or otherwise harmful, I has to ask: did you have a point?
Lust like, because the polypropylene barrels of the syringes used to give the innoculations are manufactured from petroleum, it’s no possible to rule out the presence of crude oil…
APV, I’ve got one simple question for you:
Do you have any evidence whatsoever demonstrating that the risks associated with being vaccinated against influenza exceed the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to infection by influenza?
Beacuse if not, all your posts re: polysorbate 80, allergic responses, etc., reduce to “Oooh, ingredients! Scary stuff!””
JGC. I already asked him. He weaseled out with some idiotic excuse.
So, yeah, it comes down “Oooh, ingredients! Scary stuff!””
You’d think fossils would repel Christians like garlic does to vampires. I wish we could find something that works on Toto.
And it’s even worse when those blasted ingredients are made of
((shudder))
chemicals!!!
-btw- Kim @ AoA has her take on the flu shot ‘problem’
and yes, it’s atrocious.
“You’d think fossils would repel Christians”
Why?
Maybe fossils are from a prior *creation*, PgP — Maybe it got broke somehow.
Back when I was ‘churched’, I only ever knew one prominent member who actually adhered to a literal age of Earth to be 6K years — He worked in missile defense for the US government.
I grew bitter and frustrated over certain subjects I knew not to be the truth yet ‘the church’ was politically active in working against those ‘truths’ in parroting an imposter of a federal governance. Advocating and helping to mandate programs which were particularly ‘non-christian’ in the implementation and outcomes. I have declared publicly and even more intensly privately very bad things to the father above as well as the earthly one — I wish I had the ‘faith’ to conclude that the former, at least, has not perhaps forsaken me over it.
There were good people there; I, like you, have my own trust issues which sort of manifested as an unheartfelt *renouncement* — You come off as displaying abject hatred and this is not likely to win over many of that crowd who stand opposed to many aspects of ‘sbm’.
Consider this: The Book makes a distinction between the physical and spirital ‘world’. Physical instruments may not be able to detect (make a measurement) of ‘spiritual’ phenomena and manifestations (<–Karl Popper is guffawing me now, I know). What exists 'outside' our known universe?? Have we detected 'dark matter' or 'dark energy' (still physical, to be sure) even though their existance is *implied* through other physical observations?
Here is a work of fiction I think you may find enjoyable, Politicalguineapig:
Nightfall
http://www.fictiondb.com/author/isaac-asimov-robert-silverberg~nightfall~136380~b.htm
Lots of parallels in that one — Archeologists, anthropologists, theologians, religious cults, psycologists, doctors, astronomers, physicists, students, crazy radio prophets and their outspoken radio critics… Within the University setting, the scientific method and it's evolving of knowledge and scope based on new previously occulted (hidden) information.
— Ralph Waldo Emerson
Other world! There is no other world! Here or nowhere is the whole fact. –Ralph Waldo Emerson
@Krebiozen.
I can’t be bothered to plough through your blather and feed the troll, so just a comment.
Just finished reading Paul Offits “Do You Believe in Magic?’ A nice little read..good intro to the topic for Newbies, but I also learned a few new things myself.
Like , for instance, Krebiozen, was a “cancer cure” hoax in the 1950’s. It contained nothing but mineral oil and creatine, it was shown to have zero effects, and the promoters of it (Dr Andrew Ivy, and Mr Stevan Durovic) were indicted on 49 counts of mail fraud, mislabeling, conspiracy and making false statements.
And that is what you choose as your handle.
Interesting.
While we’re at it, what repels pathological bigots?
You should have bothered. Krebiozen has been a valued contributor here for more years than you’ve been here days. Your announcement that you can’t be “bothered” to respond to his actual content and will instead judge him on his handle reflects poorly upon you, not him.
A prompt apology might mitigate somewhat the damage you’ve just done to your own image, but frankly I don’t know whether someone who thoughtlessly assumed “I sees a handle what looks suspicimous! Must be troll! I go bash for funsies and boast how me not read before bash!” would create a positive impression can understand that.
[…] this year’s vaccine “has undergone what is referred to as ‘genetic drift,'” making the vaccine less effective than desired. Yet the vaccine still offers protection against about 57% of circulating strains. On Life Lines, […]
“I sees a handle what looks suspicimous!”
I can’t be bothered ploughing through the blather of someone claiming to be a mineral!
NewCoasterMD,
I’m awfully sorry to bore you, though how you reading what I wrote “feeds the troll” escapes me. Personally I do try to read what someone has written before criticizing them, to avoid making a twit of myself.
Krebiozen was not just a bogus cancer cure, it has been touted as evidence that placebos cure cancer. It comprises two examples of people believing in obvious nonsense in one, and it’s a cool-counding name. That’s why I chose it. Did you have a point?
Antaeus, your kind words re appreciated. Thanks.
I meant “are appreciated”, probably obviously.
APV #290
What claim?
Your claim (#262) that gelatin in the *US* is *still* causing problems.
Implying that there have been problems with *US* vaccines from the time of the Nakayama study of 1999. Sian has shown why problems in Japan were not problems in the US.
Your link (#262) shows that where gelatin allergy is suspected people should be tested before receiving vaccines containing gelatine. This is in line with the Pool study for the CDC, which showed no substantial increase in allergic responses to MMR following DTaP but did find raised levels of anti-gelatin antibodies (compared with non-allergic control subjects) in a quarter of allergic response cases. Pool said these people should seek an allergy evaluation before taking further gelatin-containing vaccines. In other words a cap was placed on childhood vaccines containing gelatine for those showing allergic responses and raised levels of anti-gelatin antibodies. Lessons have been learned. Pool found no evidence to suggest egg traces in MMR might cause egg allergy.
In #224 you say: Flu vaccine can cause egg allergy in healthy non-allergic individuals.
Has the 1987 suggestion of Yamane and Uemura that flu vaccine *might* cause subsequent egg allergy ever been confirmed? They did not show that flu vaccine can cause subsequent egg allergy. It is much more difficult to prove a negative so the onus is on you to show evidence that flu vaccines can cause food allergies. So far mentioned one exceptional case in Japan and one other possible case. Tenuous evidence upon which to cast doubt on vaccines in general.
Re #204, in a reply to Chris who asked:
“Has any influenza vaccine in the USA caused a hundred pediatric deaths in the USA due to allergic reactions?”
You said:
“I believe that would not be the appropriate question to ask.
The question is how many of the 15 million people with food allergies developed it because of a vaccine.
The Japanese research I cited was to show that vaccines do indeed cause food allergies. In the US, I have not found equivalent studies at all. If you don’t study the problem, how can you be sure it does not exist?”
I think that Chris’s question is perfectly appropriate but not yours. That allergic reactions to vaccines can cause deaths is well known.
So far you have not supplied any evidence, other than the single and special case of gelatin in Japan and the possibility of vaccine produced egg allergy found by Yamane and Uemura, that there is a real problem about vaccines causing food allergies.
And Pool was doing just what you ask for. He was looking to see if the same problem as in Japan applied to the US.
He found that it did not do so.
Oh, I see you have added carbohydrates to the list of vaccine-caused food allergies, but wait, it doesn’t actually say that vaccines have been shown to cause carbohydrate food allergy. Another maybe, perhaps.
[…] — but several of her friends didn’t get the shot (pun intended). One went so far as to post this fact-laden retort from Respectful Insolence. (Oh, the irony, considering how often I’m the one who gets this […]
Shay: I’m just grumbling about the Air Force taking up space in a museum where other people go to learn. As I’ve mentioned, the Air Force has been overrun by fundies.
Plus there was a rather annoying Youtube posted by a creationist who trolled the Field Museum. There really should be policies against that sort of thing. God is fine, science is fine, but the twain should never meet.
APV:
Now that really is a remarkable claim. So food allergy was nonexistent before the invention of PPIs. Wow. PPI development traces back to 1975. So I guess there were no food allergies before that? And all those kids with peanut allergies are on a drug that’s not recommended in children? Hm. Interesting. I wonder what it was people had forty years ago that they thought were food allergies but apparently were not.
Also, wow, so proton pump inhibitors block 100% of all acid production. Huh. I did not know that. That probably explains why, while using them, I’ve died of malnutrition.
@Politicalguineapig,
Could you link to something about the museum, please?
It’s been 22 years since I retired from the Air Force, so my memories are a bit out of date, but I don’t recall it being “overrun by fundies” back then.
There was the usual range of religious viewpoints.
I suppose one could be a YEC and still do good research on high energy lasers, particle beams, radiation hardened electronics, and many of the other subjects that were being researched back then and continue to be studied now.
And, perhaps the nut job recently elected to the state legislature by a district in Colorado Springs indicates a more right-wing skew among the Air Force than the general population.
Is the Field Museum the one in Chicago?
I doubt that a museum running an exhibit on Voodoo Sacred Powers of Haiti has a strong objection to some of those Air Force scientists suggesting to young people looking to meet a scientist that they could further their education and do some scientific research in the Air Force.
Also, wow, so proton pump inhibitors block 100% of all acid production. Huh. I did not know that. That probably explains why, while using them, I’ve died of malnutrition.
Starting from my usual position of ignorance, I speculate that the pepsin in your stomach will not proteolyse so efficiently in the less-acidic conditions, but there will be no effect on proteolysis from trypsin, so you probably haven’t starved after all. To everyone’s relief.
I’m just grumbling about the Air Force taking up space in a museum where other people go to learn.
1. Assuming you’re referring to the Air and Space Museum, how do you propose to demonstrate to the learning public America’s aviation and space exploration efforts without mentioning the Air Force (I’m not a big fan of the USAF — if their aim was better I’d be a rich widow right now — but they dofly, y’know)?
2. Again assuming you’re referring to the Air and Space Museum, where in the museum is any mention made of that branch’s current religious makeup?
It seems our resident bigot has taken offense at the video posted by idiot Toto at 294 (the video, that is, she doesn’t seem to be offended by the idiot’s off topic and pointless post).
It takes a special kind of person to be offended by the Air Force band playing what could be called a Christmas song at Christmas time (more or less) at the Air and Space museum, that houses many Air Force artifacts.
Let’s face it, they are both special.
could somebody please pull my morning comment for Politicalguineapig out of *moderation*?? It has only been there for 8~9 hrs or so… That’s ok. I didn’t consider it time sensitive or anything.
My reply to Hickie even less so — He knows what I meant by ‘ostracize’ and the consequences it can have.
NewcoasterMD:
“I can’t be bothered to plough through your blather and feed the troll, so just a comment.”
Wow, just wow. How about refraining from posting nasty derogatory comments about Krebiozen, who is extraordinarily well versed in all fields of science…and has earned the respect of Orac and the posters here?
“Just finished reading Paul Offits “Do You Believe in Magic?’ A nice little read..good intro to the topic for Newbies, but I also learned a few new things myself.”
You’re late to the party. Orac already posted about Dr. Offit’s book and most of us have already read Dr. Offit’s book, which was published, June 2013:
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2013/06/19/do-you-believe-in-magic-in-medicine/
“Like , for instance, Krebiozen, was a “cancer cure” hoax in the 1950’s. It contained nothing but mineral oil and creatine, it was shown to have zero effects, and the promoters of it (Dr Andrew Ivy, and Mr Stevan Durovic) were indicted on 49 counts of mail fraud, mislabeling, conspiracy and making false statements.”
Really? We had no idea about Krebiozen cancer cure quackery:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/krebiozen.html
Shay: http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/about/michael-l-mikey-weinstein/
This should help explain why I take a dim view of the Air Force. If they actually did any science anymore, I’d be surprised. They’re clearly occupying that place as an operation in order to pretend to be benevolent and hand out tracts.
As for the Field Museum, here’s the first result I got:
http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/231715/creationist-lady-has-amazing-meltdown-at-chicagos-field-museum/
Someone on the staff had to be in on that. Which means, someone is sabotaging the exhibits. And yes, it’s in Chicago.
Oh, Jesus, I’m glad I wasn’t drinking anything when I reached Cynthia Parker’s comment. Brace yourselves:
“To be fair, it wouldn’t be possible to always accurately predict what strains of flu are going to predominate in the coming winter. Researchers go to China in the summer, kill a lot of wild geese there, and examine the flu viruses in their livers, because historically those are the ones that will sweep the Northern Hemisphere with flu in the coming winter. Obviously not an exact science since so many other factors come into play.”
Krebiozen, who is extraordinarily well versed in all fields of science
Especially for a fox.
I have continuously invited her to hang out with me and see how flu surveillance is done. I’ve even done it in Spanish. She keeps telling me that she’s too sick and whatnot to do anything… Anything except continuously, constantly, unrelentingly comment and write on the topic of vaccine “injuries”.
I really feel bad for her. Can you imagine living in that world?
herr doktor bimler…
Krebiozen is in good company with his avatar: 🙂
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2014/10/15/the-victims-of-andrew-wakefield/#comment-373231
Rene Najera: I don’t feel sorry for Cynthia Parker. When she embarks on 24 hour straight commenting jags posting hundreds of comments, she is neglecting her 14-year-old special needs child. She’s a pathological lying liar who misrepresents the child’s traumatic birth (emergency C-Section, with a true knot in the umbilical cord), her familial gene mutation which is a risk factor for her own Asperger syndrome and the multiple developmental disabilities in her family and her self-diagnose of her baby’s “hepatitis B vaccine associated encephalitis”.
She’s on record as wanting her child to contract measles rather than providing the MMR vaccine for her child.
Herr Doktor @ 334
Yes but he is “as cunning as a fox what used to be Professor of Cunning at Oxford University but has moved on and is now working for the U.N. at the High Commission of International Cunning Planning”
This should help explain why I take a dim view of the Air Force. If they actually did any science anymore, I’d be surprised. They’re clearly occupying that place as an operation in order to pretend to be benevolent and hand out tracts.
If by science you mean avionics, engineering to include aeronautical, civil, computer, electronical and bioenvironmental, and meteorology (not to mention rocket science) yes, I believe the Air Force does “do science.” As for the rest of your comment, it is beyond my power to ungarble.
I was just befuddled by APV’s comment that people don’t get food allergies from eating foods. Uh….how ELSE would you get some of them? I can be certain that my daughter developed her strawberry allergy from eating them, NOT from some phantasm of APV’s imagination.
And I am sincerely sorry if his child had severe allergies. They can be hell to live with (my brother and a very good friend of mine had them. I never did). Strangely to say, we all had the same vaccine schedules (actually, I got more than my brother because he never got the MMR, having had the illnesses. I got the MMR, even though I *had* had the illnesses, just because….
@ Narad:
I know.
I always wondered what that *cia* nym was all about ..
OK, it’s a contraction of ‘Cynthia’ I suppose and should call up associations to the ‘central intelligence agency’- but no caps- that’s a switch-
so what is she then: a spy in the house of woo or such?
Friggin’ far associations will stick out.
( Or as we experts say: it’s so ‘loopy’.)
At any rate, is there still no word on Andy’s continuously haranguing vexation ( a/k/a the lawsuit)? I just got in and haven’t searched yet.
Krebiozen #340,
Polysorbate 80 and lung injury:
I would not dismiss it just yet …
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3949648
http://www.uptodate.com/contents/taxane-induced-pulmonary-toxicity
Adding insult to lung injury:
Vaccines have human lung fibroblasts. Autoimmunity?
Sian Williams posted details of HLA-DR9 individuals being more susceptible to gelatin allergy.
We know that c-section birth primes for IgE. How can one dismiss the possibility that such newborns are likewise susceptible to food proteins in vaccines, when no studies have been performed?
No studies have been performed even when one vaccine is used but in reality, we inject five in one sitting?
Vaccine/injection causing food allergy, studies:
Gelatin in vaccine caused gelatin allergy (Thanks to Sian Williams, HLA condition noted).
Egg in flu vaccine caused sensitization.
Influenza virus protein in flu vaccine causes sensitization (IgE) to viral protein.
Mice/rats sensitized regularly in the lab with injected food proteins.
Vaccine/injection NOT causing food allergy, studies:
None posted.
But conclusion: Vaccines DO NOT cause food allergies! Does that make sense to anyone? Sorry, it does not make sense to me.
The mechanism of injected proteins causing sensitization has been demonstrated over and over and there should be no doubts about it. The only open question is: Is there a dose of allergen sufficient to cause sensitization present in the vaccine?. As many have pointed out, the dose makes the poison.
Yet we have scientists talking about “poorly hydrolyzed gelatin”. I expect people to talk about hydrolyzed gelatin meeting a quality spec. or violating it. How is poorly hydrolyzed gelatin defined? An FDA inspector dipping his finger in the vat and sticking it in the air? This is not engine oil. We inject our babies with it. Is this the best the FDA can do?
And this poorly hydrolyzed gelatin is everywhere. The DTaP in Japan had it causing sensitization. The MMR in Japan had it causing anaphylaxis. The MMR in the US had it causing anaphylaxis. The flu vaccine in the US has it causing anaphylaxis.
And as I repeatedly pointed out, it takes a lot less allergen to cause sensitization than it does to cause anaphylaxis.
15 mcg of viral protein caused sensitization in 100% of recipients (granted, N=3). 15 mcg of viral protein is not known to cause anaphylaxis.
I have been accused of scaremongering. If this is the way the FDA conducts its vaccine safety business, we ought to be scared of vaccines.
FWIW,
I asked a lot of doctors about the food allergy/vaccine connection.
The vast majority did not respond.
Dr. Polly Matzinger, NIAID/NIH, pointed out the BALB/c mice food allergy model and said the same could be happening in humans and should be investigated.
Dr. J Bart Classen wrote: “The concept of epitope spreading applies. If a macrophage has on its surface a tetanus immunogen and an self immunogen then the body will start developing immunity to the self immunogen as well. The self immunogen does not have to be in the vaccine only on the MHC molecules of a macrophage presenting the vaccine antigen (ie tetanus).”
MI Dawn #340,
To get strawberry allergy, the proteins in strawberry must be presented to parts of the immune system that can cause sensitization. If simply eating strawberry could cause you to develop an allergy, you should become allergic to every type of protein you eat.
If you ate strawberry with acid-reducing medications, you could develop an allergy. If you had eczema and Filaggrin mutations, then touching strawberry (juice?) may cause it.
I have not heard of strawberries in vaccines … yet.
Calli Arcale #326,
You did not follow the whole thread.
Obviously healthy people eating foods will not cause them to develop food allergies. PPI can cause you develop allergies to food you eat. But that is not the only way to get food allergies. If you looked at the rest of my posts, I am saying food proteins in vaccines are the biggest contributor to the food allergy epidemic, not PPI.
APV, have you never heard of English rhetoric? Are sentence structure and paragraphs a foreign concept where you are from? Do you seriously think humans are equivalent to sheep? This is what you posted as evidence:
J Appl Physiol (1985). 1986 Feb;60(2):433-40.
Oleic acid lung injury in sheep.
What are your feelings about high schoo , college kids and young adults getting weekly allergy shots? Should those weekly injections be banned? I know it was annoying to me to get that office each week, especially for the year when my new employer’s wouldn’t pay for them because it was a “pre-existing condition.”
“Dr. J Bart Classen”
That is hilarious. He is a patent troll.
If you put the address of Classen Immunotherapies, Inc in Google Maps you will find out it is not an office building, but a house. A very nice house with a pool, but still just a house. Not someplace that would have any kind of research labs.
Or a good reference for evidence.
Leigh Jackson #323,
Yes, gelatin is still causing problems in the US.
In 2013, ACAAI warned of gelatin in flu vaccines causing anaphylaxis. Lesson learned for me is:
Removal of ALL food proteins from vaccines -an ultimate solution for vaccine-related food allergy, as in:
Kuno-Sakai H, Kimura M. Removal of gelatin from live vaccines and DTaP-an ultimate solution for vaccine-related gelatin allergy.Biologicals 2003;31:245-9.
Yamane and Uemura demonstrated up to 2 RAST class increases in ovalbumin IgE caused by flu vaccines in some recipients. There were 10 out of 100 recipients who developed ovalbumin sensitization anew. I don’t know what more confirmation you are seeking.
The Pool study looked at egg but it has nothing to do with MMR.
“So far you have not supplied any evidence, other than the single and special case of gelatin in Japan and the possibility of vaccine produced egg allergy found by Yamane and Uemura, that there is a real problem about vaccines causing food allergies.”
So far ZERO evidence has been provided showing food proteins in vaccines DO NOT cause food allergies. So people should not be complaining about the number of studies both human/animal that I have posted demonstrating the mechanism at work.
Chris’ question is inappropriate because I am not advocating against vaccination to solve the food allergy problem. I want food proteins removed from vaccines so people can safely vaccinate. So deaths due to vaccine-preventable diseases is an inappropriate question to ask.
Tick bite:
“carbohydrates to the list of vaccine-caused …”
No, one more example of the consequences of bypassing normal food/protein processing in the digestive tract.
Nature’s “vaccinations” are just as troublesome as man-made vaccinations.
Chris #345,#46,
They experiment on sheep/mice because the results usually apply to humans. What’s your point?
Allergy shots are optional. You are not going to die without it.
So if you want to take the risk of allergy shots, it’s up to you.
With vaccines, you don’t have such a choice.
About Dr.Classen: If you dispute his epitope spreading comment, please post evidence.
Chris: Bart Classen, eh? I opened up one of the old (2012) posts on the SOP blog…which featured troll Putin and Parker’s sockie “Ella”. Classen was mentioned and I provided the link to his corporate website.
I also found Sharyl Attkisson’s blog, where she champions the work of Classen…good for laughs:
http://sharylattkisson.com/research-immunologist-sees-vaccine-link-to-autism-obesity-diabetes-in-children
Remember what they say about wrestling pigs. 🙂
Next you’re going to give away the seamy underbelly of Ball jars.
This isn’t exactly something that would work in your favor overall.
Have you ever encountered the advice that one should never write a sentence whose meaning hinges on a comma?
APV #347
What more confirmation do I want?
A lot more.
You want me to prove a negative?
First you give me the evidence which proves that there isn’t a teapot in orbit round Mars. Then I will set about trying to figure out how to provide evidence that vaccines do not routinely cause food allergies. Beyond saying that there is no evidence that they do.
Chris’ question is perfectly appropriate. Why won’t you answer? It’s a perfectly easy question to answer if what you say is true.
Here is the question:
Where is the quantification of those “vaccine-induced diseases”? Specifically the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers. Has any influenza vaccine in the USA caused a hundred pediatric deaths in the USA due to allergic reactions? That should be something that would be in the literature.
It’s nice to find people have been saying nice things about me while I was curled up sleeping in my foxhole (with Baldrick and Blackadder). I wasn’t sure anyone appreciated just how hard it is typing without the benefit of opposable thumbs. Thanks. BTW, I think Brian Deer’s avatar is a dog, not a fox, but I can’t be sure without getting within sniffing distance.
Yes, the pertussis vaccine did not work….
“(NaturalNews) Unvaccinated children are supposedly the cause, according to state health officials, of a recent whooping cough outbreak that occurred in the posh Cape Cod area of Massachusetts. But as reported by CBS Boston, all of the children affected by the outbreak were already vaccinated, proving once again that vaccines don’t really work.
Some 15 children at Falmouth High School reportedly came down with the respiratory illness, which also goes by the name pertussis, sparking a wave of panic about a corresponding increase in vaccine exemptions. But as usual, nobody affected by the outbreak was unvaccinated, and no matter how hard the media tries to spin the issue, those who were vaccinated were not protected.”
Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/047930_whooping_cough_vaccinations_exemptions.html#ixzz3LP2vJRlg
APV,
When you find you have made a dumb mistake and dug yourself into a hole, I suggest you admit it and stop digging, instead of trying to justify it like this.
How I managed that blockquote fail when I checked it several times I do not know. Sorry.
Troll? Perhaps you should read his comments over the last few years and get a clue how accurate, polite and scientifically-competent Krebiozen is.
Somehow I don’t think you learned much at all other than to be an arrogant asshat after reading a book.
And yet you chose “MD” as part of your handle. I guess you don’t get irony.
From the article you cited re: “Polysorbate 80 and lung injury: I would not dismiss it just yet …”
Could you tell us which vaccines, either for seasonal flu or part of the recommended childhood schedule, are given intravenously?
Good news for bad people:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NaGWXxvIxo
Bah! My lab doesn’t even have a stinkin’ Jacuzzi.
Next you’re going to give away the seamy underbelly of Ball jars.
And I left out ballistics, too.
NewcoasterMD has posted some provocative comments on the SBM blogs about the health care system in Canada and how (s)he practices in Canada….so there are those excuses for her/his personal attacks.
It would be nice if we had people from outside the United States, commenting here…cough…cough…sarcasm.
So far ZERO evidence has been provided showing food proteins in vaccines DO NOT cause food allergies
So far ZERO evidence has been provided showing APV IS NOT a child molester.
See how that works?
Seriously, though, it’s generaly a good idea to look for evidence that something happens before you try coming up with far-fetched explanations for how it supposedly happens. For example, if you’d tried using the search function on this blog you’d have seen Orac’s discussion of this study showing that vaccinated and unvaccinated children have similar rates of atopic disease (i.e., allergies.) If you read the discussion at the end of the paper, they reference several other studies that came to the same conclusion.
Toto: Your news sources about the pertussis outbreak are suspect. The mainstream reporter who reported that “pertussis outbreak” in a high school on Cape Cod managed to screw up the report…it is full of errors:
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2014/11/14/whooping-cough-outbreak-on-cape-cod/#comments
@APV: you have NO idea how allergies are obtained, do you? You have your idee fixee (can’t put accents on from this computer). My brother and friend never had PPIs, had few vaccines (children of the 50s and 60s that we are) and had severe allergies/eczema from infancy on.
My daughter was 14 and completely healthy when she developed an allergy to strawberries. Yes, it is a true, tested allergy. No, she is not allergic to most other fruits. She was not taking PPIs, had had no recent vaccines, and it was a very unpleasant surprise to find her developing a severe case of hives when eating her favorite fruit.
You can believe what you want. The rest of us will stick with knowledge.
@ Krebiozen:
Awwwww! You have your own little foxhole- probably lined with chicken bones.
Unfortunately, I see too many of your brethren run over by cars around here. Amongst the people I know who fed various members of your tribe, 2 of 3 have suffered losses.
-btw- BD’s dog avatar looks like a Chow. I remember my late mother pointing them out to me long ago.
OBVIOUSLY I know all about dogs, being feline myself- it comes with the territory.
In other anti-vax non-news:
Jake speculates about why people behave as they do- not his strong suit. (@ Autism Investigated together) He is apparently no longer under Andy’s spell.
AND we learn that Celia Farber also writes for the Epoch Times. Perhaps these two have much in common.
AND Ren and the other shills are correct: AI is a gossip column.
Someday I should illustrate graphically how many of the most mind-shatteringly unrealistic cranks and frauds share mutual friends and work together in their endeavor to create edifices constructed entirely of b@llsh!t, tangled fishing line and sealing wax
-Sigh!- that should be Autism Investigated TODAY
@MI Dawn
Perhaps she shouldn’t have been mainlining strawberry preserves? Smuckers has much to answer for.
@MI Dawn
Well, you see, according to APV, getting any protein into you causes an allergy and potential anaphylaxis, except when it’s inconvenient to APV’s ideas, then they don’t.
APV:
No, I did follow the thread. I just felt ridicule was the best way to approach your claims. I mean, you have blamed a lot of things for allergies, but you did actually word it as a blanket statement there. Your language is sloppy, and it hurts your arguments. Of course, the fact that most of your arguments consist of a tenuous chain of supposition doesn’t help either, so maybe it doesn’t matter — perhaps there is a point beyond which poor structure won’t hurt you any more than the lack of evidence already does.
It is, frankly, absurd that PPI usage would contribute to food allergies, for a lot of reasons, but the biggest one to my mind is the one I alluded to in my mockery of your claim: that if it were true, people who use PPIs would die of malnutrition because none of their food would be adequately digested. This is clearly untrue. At worst, PPIs can reduce absorption of certain minerals because they’re not as well dissolved. But that’s all.
BTW, I have been on PPIs for several years now, and I have failed to acquire any new allergies. 😉 I know, N=1 and it’s just an anecdote, but consider also that children are almost never put on PPIs, yet that is the age group vastly most likely to be diagnosed with a food allergy.
Oh, and there are unvaccinated kids with food allergies. But I’m confident you can dismiss that too, or maybe you just assume that antivaccinationists are definitely the sort to put their kids on PPIs. 😉
Shay:
Random fun factoid that Narad was probably alluding to: the company that makes Ball jars used to be Ball Corporation, but they spun off the home canning supply business (though the jars still have their logo on them). They do still make jars and bottles for the canning industry. And ballistics? Well, they got involved with that in the 1950s, when they started making guidance packages for missiles.
Ball Aerospace is a major manufacturer of sensors, star trackers, communications systems, and so forth for spacecraft and aircraft (including the JSF), and also a complete satellite manufacturer and systems integrator as well. They built MRO’s main camera, HiRISE, for instance, and the WorldView-1 and WorldView-2 commercial imaging satellites, just to pick a few random examples from their very long list.
Something to think about the next time you’re making jelly and staring at that cursive Ball logo. 😉
I actually thought Narad was referring to Randall Jarrel’s poem.
Jarrell.
Sorry.
@Toto
Your tornado is calling – no one takes Natural News seriously.
Well, no one with a functional brain, at least.
If eating proteins while taking PPIs is dangerous, what about after pumpectomy?
Recommendations for patients post-gastrectomy:
Recommendations for patients post-gastrectomy:
And as for “risk” from IM injections, what about the risks from large-bore IV, not to mention surgery or injuries like compound fractures of long bones slopping blood, marrow and bits of muscle all over the place? What of the old days when barbers used styptic pencils with all that nasty response-provoking aluminum?
Old days? I still have and use a styptic pencil. I don’t use it often, and it’s probably safe to say its older that some of the commenters here, but it still works.
I think it dates from the mid to late 70s.
It can be used as the carrier, so it must be to blame.
There’s one small problem on the allergens front, though.
@PgP #312,
PgP, I’d tried to post some 30 hrs ago but it must have gotten lost in transit… Sorry. Try the Nightfall, though; It is
available on audiobook for those on the run…
===============================
Maybe fossils are from a prior *creation*, PgP — Maybe it got broke somehow.
Back when I was ‘churched’, I only ever knew one prominent member who actually adhered to a literal age of Earth to be 6K years — He worked in missile defense for the US government.
I grew bitter and frustrated over certain subjects I knew not to be the truth yet ‘the church’ was politically active in working against those ‘truths’ in parroting an imposter of a federal governance. Advocating and helping to mandate programs which were particularly ‘non-christian’ in the mplementation and outcomes. I have declared publicly and even more intensly privately very bad things to the father above as well as the earthly one — I wish I had the ‘faith’ to conclude that the former, at least, has not perhaps forsaken me over it.
There were good people there; I, like you, have my own trust issues which sort of manifested as an unheartfelt *renouncement* — You come off as displaying abject hatred and this is not likely to win over many of that crowd who stand opposed to many aspects of ‘sbm’.
Consider this: The Book makes a distinction between the physical and spirital ‘world’. Physical instruments may not be able to detect (make a measurement) of ‘spiritual’ phenomena and manifestations (<–Karl Popper is guffawing me now, I know). What exists 'outside' our known universe?? Have we detected 'dark matter' or 'dark energy' (still physical, to be sure) even though their existance is *implied* through other physical observations?
Here is a work of fiction I think you may find enjoyable, Politicalguineapig:
Nightfall
http://www.fictiondb.com/author/isaac-asimov-robert-silverberg~nightfall~136380~b.htm
Lots of parallels in that one — Archeologists, anthropologists, theologians, religious cults, psycologists, doctors, astronomers, physicists, students, crazy radio prophets and their outspoken radio critics… Within the University setting, the scientific method and it's evolving of knowledge and scope based on new previously occulted (hidden) information.
— Ralph Waldo Emerson
Other world! There is no other world! Here or nowhere is the whole fact. –Ralph Waldo Emerson
==============================================
Chris Hickie,
You know what I mean by ‘ostracize’ and how the adamant against vaccination banging into the adamant against
treatment or diagnosis for avaxers may lead to a serious contagious disease being allowed to continue to circulate as well as the former being relegated to seeking *woo*. Of course, working woo tends to be prohibited; Otherwise it would be called ‘medicine’ and locked away behind the equally hard-to-access prescription wall — Should, God forbid, there ever be *any evidence to show*, that is.
The guys at the Service Center report that complaints of boredom from the bot led them to shunt new input to /dev/null.
@APV
I’ve already done my homework — the likelihood of the allergens my family is sensitive to being present in vaccines ranges from “illegal” to “highly implausible.” I don’t doubt it’s possible to dream up some six-degrees-of-separation explanation for how they could get into some batch somewhere, but you also would need to take into account that I can trace these allergies back several generations, so we’re talking about radically different vaccines that the individuals involved were exposed to.
You’ve asked why vaccines aren’t tested for the presence of all known food allergies. I don’t think you realize the scope of the engineering project for that task. There are 1270 food allergens listed in Allergome alone! Most of them currently don’t have tests that could detect them at the level you seem to think is necessary, and we’d not just need tests that can do it, but can do it with sample sizes small enough that we don’t need to use up the whole lot testing the purity of the lot.
As a person who just wants to do what’s best for my family and society (a mother of a bone marrow transplant survivor who was extremely immune-deficient so dependent on others’ vaccinations), I am curious of your stance on a couple of Mike Adams’ points that I noticed you did not directly address in your article.
1) I was waiting for your response to Mike Adam’s discovery that there was 100x the amount of Mercury in the flu vaccine, as compared to what is found in infected fish…(fish they recommend you limit your consumption of and recommend pregnant women don’t consume at all). Why do you support the flu vaccine knowing it has these levels of mercury which are scientifically proven to be bad for you? Is the mercury the lesser of 2 evils? Shouldn’t we be fighting for non-toxic versions of the flu vaccine?
2) You mentioned he did the “argument by package insert”, which yes I agree is a legal document by all intents, yet I had hoped you would address his very credible issue with fact that “Safety and effectiveness of Flulaval have not been established in” kids or pregnant women, yet they promote the vaccines very strongly for both those demographics. Why would they promote such a thing when they haven’t even established safety or effectiveness? Did they try and were unable, or did they not even try?? That seems ridiculous to me.
Thanks for taking the time to read this…as a mother I feel extremely frustrated to have to wade through all the quacks out there…in addition to be skeptical of my own government’s best interest….and sometimes I just feel like it’s easier to be a sheeple. :-/
Did you click on the links included in those sections? One of them addresses Mike Adams’ nonsense about mercury in flu vaccines, and the other addresses why package inserts are not a good basis for arguing side effects. That’s why I included those links, so that I wouldn’t have to explain those points in detail. Think of the links as citations.
@Elilady
Exactly where are the “errors”?
Duh.
“But in this case, a school official tells WBZ that all the students had been immunized.
“None of these vaccines are 100 percent effective and there is some waning of effectiveness over time,” said Dr. Daley.”
Sorta off topic, but it does concern the board –
Every time I come to the site on my iPad, about halfway into the page load, i get redirected to another site – it appears to be from an advertisement, but I shut it down once it starts, so I can’t say for sure what it is. I can only load this site from a real computer that has ad block software.
Anyone else noticing such a thing?
@Ann
That statement in the package insert applies to the manufacturer only. Basically, the manufacturer is stating that they have not studied the vaccine in those populations. It does not mean that no one has. Again, that is an example of the manufacturer complying with federal regulations.
If you search PubMed, you will find that flu vaccines have been studied in pregnant women and children, just not by the manufacturer.
@Ann
If Orac will indulge me, I’ll add my own post about package inserts to the link he provided above to Skeptical Raptor’s post. I recommend you read both links; it may help you understand what package inserts really mean, as well as what they don’t say.
@ Johnny:
Oddly enough I had similar trouble with a laptop when I tried to use the RI dedicated link / app and go to today’s current post. I got here through a circuitous pathway that included a post of Orac’s about AJW- who I assume is frightening enough to scare off any advert mongering. Andy, that is.
@Johnny and Denice Walter
The problem was with Sitemeter. I had the same problem on my own blog earlier this evening and thought I’d gotten hacked. It turns out that the traffic tracking widget code from Sitemeter was the problem. Pretty much any blog that uses it will be having this same problem. The solution is for the blog owner to disable the code.
Hopefully it will get fixed, but from what I’ve been reading, Sitemeter may be a more or less abandoned service.
Calli Arcale 374#,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15671152
Pl. post counter evidence.
Stop right there.
Mike Adams DID NOT find any such thing. His sloppy reporting may produce that impression – it may be intended to produce that impression – but even if his “discovery” is completely accurate, what he “discovered” is merely the CONCENTRATION of mercury, not the AMOUNT.
The AMOUNT of a substance that is present is meaningful, when trying to assess toxicity. The CONCENTRATION is not.
To understand the difference, take two identical wallets. Both have a single $10 bill inside. Now take the second wallet and stuff 99 bill-sized pieces of paper in alongside the $10. Did you just change the buying power of the second wallet? Obviously not! The AMOUNT of currency in both wallets remains the same, even though you just changed the CONCENTRATION in the second by a factor of 100x.
If you really are the parent of a medically fragile child then you need to start getting your medical information from real sources, and not from Mike Adams.
Toto @ 387:
1. My ‘nym in lilady
2. The article in question was confusing and the Falmouth health department and the Massachusetts State health department has not provided the numbers of high school students who actually received the Tdap booster, as required by Massachusetts State Law (There’s a 5% refusal rate for students entering kindergarden).
http://www.healio.com/pediatrics/vaccine-preventable-diseases/news/online/%7B487157b9-123b-4cfd-8e6e-9f675bb25580%7D/vaccination-with-dtap-tdap-lowers-risk-for-pertussis
Vaccination with DTaP, Tdap lowers risk for pertussis
….”Children who were unvaccinated for pertussis were more likely to develop the disease and had RRs ranging from 1.9 to 20.6. Those partially vaccinated had a 1.3- to threefold risk for pertussis. Vaccine effectiveness ranged from 47% among children aged 13 to 16 years to 95% among children aged 15 to 47 months.
“Our data demonstrate the effectiveness of pertussis vaccination among all age cohorts of children: No matter the age, an unvaccinated child was more likely to contract pertussis than a vaccinated or partially vaccinated child,” Liko and colleagues concluded….”
So…the question is would you rather have your adolescent child have a 47 % chance of having protective immunity after having received the Tdap booster or a zero percent chance of having protective immunity, because you opted out of the vaccine?
Krebiozen #358,
Docetaxel IV includes Polysorbate 80. Acute lung injury occurs often.
http://products.sanofi.us/taxotere/taxotere.html
“TAXOTERE 20 mg/mL
TAXOTERE (docetaxel) Injection Concentrate 20 mg/1 mL: 20 mg docetaxel in 1 mL in 50/50 (v/v) ratio polysorbate 80/dehydrated alcohol.”
“35,800 times greater than the dose of polysorbate 80”
For a 30 lb., 3 yr. old. getting the Flulaval vaccine, that comes down to 250x.
https://www.gsksource.com/gskprm/htdocs/documents/FLULAVAL-QUADRIVALENT.PDF
And we are not looking for acute lung injury. And assuming that a child is just a small adult.
Do children react/process Polysorbate 80 the same way?
When multiple studies also show unvaccinated children have less asthma, should we still ignore this?
Polysorbate allergens:
http://www.oncologypractice.com/co/journal/articles/0709425.pdf
http://polysorbate.jp/
“In rat study, Polysorbate80(HX2)TM triggered less histamine release from rat mast cells compared to conventional Polysorbate80 formulations. The latest in-vivo dog study has also indicated less histamine release of Polysorbate80(HX2)TM. The great feature of low allergy allows clients to use for drug formulations in safety. ”
Many people here have decreed that Polysorbate 80 be allergen-free. Apparently, the manufacturers have not gotten the memo?
Further, 40% of flu vaccines do NOT contain Polysorbate 80 demonstrating that technology exists to make Polysorbate 80-free vaccines. Why still approve vaccines with Polysorbate 80?
“Some vaccines are made using human lung fibroblasts (WI-38), but they do not contain them, any more than cars contain car factories. ”
By that argument, flu vaccines should not contain ovalbumin either. So vaccine makers do indeed ship bits of their vaccine factories in their vaccines. Flublok for instance has more fall armyworm and baculovirus protein (28 mcg) in the vaccine than the amount of a viral protein in a traditional vaccine (15 mcg). Trace quantities of production media are always present. As always, no spec. for these “trace quantities” to ensure safety nor enforcement.
Krebiozen #358,
“why isn’t everyone who has every had a blood transfusion, a transplant ”
Unlike vaccines, there are no adjuvants in blood transfusion as far as I know. Transplants involve strong immunosuppressant therapy. Can’t compare that to a healthy person receiving a vaccine.
justthestats #384,
“There are 1270 food allergens listed in Allergome alone!”
The Top 8 would be a good start …
Or even better, remove the known sources of allergen.
@Elilady
The scientific evidence is staring you in the face.
All of the students who got pertussis had been vaccinated against it. The vaccine didn’t work. End of discussion.
Maybe the Wizard can provide you with a conscience, yes?
doug #379,
How do you know they are not developing food allergies?
Aluminum on wounds could increase risk of eczema.
Ann:
I can only reiterate what other posters have stated about your choice of sources (Mike Adams), for information about vaccines.
Here, Dr. Paul Offit explains how bizarre side effects (a fractured leg, following a chicken pox vaccine weeks before), are listed on vaccine package inserts:
http://www.pediatricnews.com/specialty-focus/vaccines/article/how-to-handle-questions-about-vaccine-safety/48ab5cca36ed1784860bbe6454da113e.html
If your child was hospitalized in reverse isolation, (s)he would have been ineligible to receive the LAIV seasonal influenza vaccine, as well as the health care staff who care for those in protective reverse isolation units and close household members. Health care staff and family members would have received a seasonal influenza vaccine:
https://www.whatcomcounty.us/health/commdis/immunizations/pdf/screen_cheklist_laiv_102012.pdf
MI Dawn
Please tell us how you think food allergies develop.
Could you point out the bolded part? (PDF)
Note in advance that it’s not approved for children younger than 3 years of age in the first place.
The Pregnancy Category* may also be of interest.
* It appears that this is finally shuffling off the mortal coil at the end of next June.
Sarah A #366,
The study you posted shows on Table 2 that unvaccinated children had zero occurrence of asthma compared to 1.8-4.6% for vaccinated children. Why do you ignore that?
Do you have a hypothesis for what is causing the food allergy epidemic?
Leigh Jackson #355.
“Where is the quantification of those “vaccine-induced diseases”? Specifically the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers. Has any influenza vaccine in the USA caused a hundred pediatric deaths in the USA due to allergic reactions? That should be something that would be in the literature.”
I provided evidence from reputable qualified researchers that gelatin and egg allergy are caused by vaccines. You don’t believe it. Why do you ask for more studies from me? Just to ignore them?
Krebiozen or Sian Williams,
Re:HLA-DR9 and gelatin.
Consider a novel hypothetical influenza-like virus, that instead of HA protein carries a gelatin-like protein. Would a vaccine created for that virus only work on people carrying HLA-DR9?
Define “gelatin-like protein.” Or draw a before-and-after picture of the Gedankenvirus. It’ll be fun.
^ Let me boil that down a little so that APV might be able to understand it: OK, let’s imagine such a virus.
Some important steps have been skipped between whether it would be viable and whether the imaginary resultant vaccine would only work in a narrow haplotype.
APV,
You seriously think the polysorbate is to blame, not the cytotoxic taxanes which inhibit cell division? Even if it were to blame, the smallest dose they recommend in cancer patients is 60 mg per square meter, which equates to 102 mg in an average person (assuming area of 1.7 m^2), which would contain over 2 mL of polysorbate 80 weighing approximately 2.14 grams, over 2 million micrograms of polysorbate. Even Flulaval quadrivalent only contains 887 micrograms of polysorbate 80, 23,000 times less than that given to cancer patients.
I have a sticky / key on my keyboard than sometimes doesn’t work, it seems. Sorry about the blockquote fail, again. Looks like I’ll be cleaning my keyboard later and won’t have this problem again, I hope.
@APV:
No, I think you need to take some lessons on immunology and allergies. Food allergies come from exposure to FOOD in one way or another. Not vaccines.
@ Todd W.:
Fortunately the problem seems to have cleared up.
In other news…
Dan ( AoA) addresses the division within his community- anti-vax vs safer vax.
Scrolling Jake’s blog at Epoch Times- if not navigated carefully enough- will precipitate a very massive illustrated advert for herbal cough drops. Heh.
I get the feeling that if APV could come up with some hand-waving argument that vaccines could be contaminated with cytotoxic taxanes (“perhaps taking the form “No one has proven they aren’t…”) he’d jump on them as well.
Since he can’t., howver, it just has to be the polysorbate.
APV, the Untersmeyer et al citation you offered noted a rise in IgE directed against food allergens in patients receiving PPI’s. However, the authors offer no evidence these subjects actually developing food allergies as a consequence.
Can you provide any evidence demonstrating that people who receive PPI’s actually develop food allergies at a statistically greater incidence rate than people who do not?
That’s the claim you’ve made, after all–not that their IgE levels increase detectably.
APV, that study shows that PPIs might possibly slightly aggravate allergies in susceptible individuals (i.e. people who might’ve gotten the allergies anyway). It does not prove your claim — or even really attempt to. In all seriousness, you are seeking validation of your beliefs, not truth.
@Denise – Dan is having to deal with the very real issue of his group appearing to be complete wack-jobs, while he attempts to at least appear to have some credibility…..like admitting that the Smallpox vaccine was actually responsible for eradication & there are some “good vaccines” – it appears that these admissions are going to drive a number of his supporters up the wall…..
Well, I guess someone is running for the Respectful Insolence TOTY award. Good luck APV, you can smell 500 from here!
APV does have some stiff competition, but many of those like Thingy were banned. “Smarter Than You” made a claim of a huge announcement will happen in late 2010, and just disappeared.
Though, APV said his kid had an allergic reaction to a vaccine, I wonder how if the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program compensated his claim.
@ Lawrence:
Anti-vax groups appear to be separating into several groups which range from being moderately off-the-wall like Dan to full-tllt wacky ( Barry, Whiterose) : right now there is competition for the middle ground.
Oddly enough, I think that various Moms ( @ TMR and AoA) speak well to that middle by infusing their lunacy with interminable motherly concern and martyrdom- they also espouse traditional values like providing healthful food- not Big Farmers’ brand- for their families. TMR even has a new cookbook for sale. Kim, Alison, Louise, Teresa, Lisa and Cat may become the mentors of many lost parents- in dire need of a confidante- who have access to a computer and spend time on facebook.
AS a feminist, I appreciate women taking leadership roles but them becoming thought leaders by disseminating mindless quackery is not exactly my cup of tea.
APV #404
The study you posted shows on Table 2 that unvaccinated children had zero occurrence of asthma compared to 1.8-4.6% for vaccinated children. Why do you ignore that?
You conveniently omitted the fact that those results are for the subgroups of children aged 1 – 5 and 6 – 10, respectively; in children aged 11 – 17 the incidence of asthma was slightly higher in unvaccinated children (8.4% vs 7.0%). Why do you ignore that? Because it doesn’t support your foregone conclusion? Would I be justified in taking this single data point (or the more dramatic one where the rate of eczema was 26.4% in unvaccinated vs 15.6% in vaccinated 6 – 10-year olds) and concluding that vaccines prevent allergies? Should I then come up with far-fetched hypotheses to explain why vaccines prevent allergies while ignoring any evidence showing that they don’t?
The authors of this paper looked at the rates of a number atopic diseases as well as infections in three different age groups. Some of the rates were higher in vaccinated children and some were lower, just as you’d expect by chance. Because the number of unvaccinated children was so much smaller than the number of vaccinated children (94 vs 13,359), it’s not surprising that they didn’t find any cases of a disease with such a low prevalence in the general population (they mention this in the paper, BTW, if you’d bothered to read it rather than skim for isolated data points to support your pet hypothesis.) The important thing is that there were no statisticaly significant differences in atopic disease between vaccinated and unvaccinated children, a finding that was replicated in several other studies referenced within the paper.
No, you have a problem getting it through your head that the manufacturer’s page that you continually regurgitate was written by EFL speakers. Did you even read your second link?
“The reported rate of hypersensitivity reactions with docetaxel is estimated at 30% in patients who do not
receive premedications.[3] Although the mechanism of this toxicity is unknown, it is hypothesized that the reaction (like paclitaxel hypersensitivity reactions) is not IgE-mediated, because the majority of the reactions occur within the first two doses.”
Did you not underrstand the second link in #381? Try this. It’s pseudoallergy.
Anyway, it’s been a week since Wakefraud’s petition for review was due, and nothing has been posted to the case page. They can be a bit slow, but this would be a record from what I’ve seen.
The smart money at this point is on his having been rebuffed by every decent SCOTX practitioner to be found and walked away from it without the courtesy of an announcement for his for his adoring fans and donors.
It seems to me there is not a very clear understanding of what a hypersensitivity response (an inappropriate response) to a benign antigen means. Maybe the thought what a normal person doesn’t react to should change to what happens in the abnormal response. If the immune system doesn’t like an antigen, it’s going to respond to it. I don’t really care if you call food allergy, ‘protein-like’ (wtf?), or allergy xyzpdq. Certain people can’t even touch an antigen or they trigger their hypersensitivity going into anaphylaxis. Some people can’t even go into sunlight, as another example. Trying to nail everything down to IgE is really only one type; I know of four basic types (which I think includes switching antibody classes).
My point being, that people can get a trigger event from a vaccine, which really shouldn’t be taken as a pseudoallergy. They have an adverse reaction. This relates to the genomic makeup of the individual; which is why some people really shouldn’t vaccinate. And certainly to reiterate the same concept again, not something inherent within the vaccine that would be a mechanism for injury against the safety of the entire population.
@ Narad:
That’s good to know. Does he have any additional legal avenues in which to perseverate? Or will he just write another crappy book or film enumerating his many woes?( Skyhorse apparently will publish any load of rubbish as long as it has ‘autism’ in the title and an altie slant).
Or can we start celebrating?
Regarding #421, the link in #381 really is much more on point, which is why I used it in the first place. It appears that the gross manifestation (as mentioned here without citation) is species specific, RBL-2H3 in a dish notwithstanding.
Horace: Read Nightfall, also have the podcast and the dvd. I don’t do audiobooks, as they take up space and too much of one voice turns into white noise.
As for the rest of the comment, I’m okay with Christians on a personal level, it’s just in the mass that they annoy me. At least the science crowd doesn’t think I stop being human for nine months- or was never human in the first place, except for a few hoary professors who came up through the old boy network.
DW: Pretty much ditto on that comment. I also think it’d be nice if the TMR and AOA crowd stopped trading off the ‘we feel this so it has to be true.’ It plays into all the worst stereotypes of women. Emotions should be treated like luxury items, not used everyday, and they especially should not be used as substitutes for reasoning. (Plus the concern for their children, really? Who do they think they’re fooling?)
I didn’t know there was a podcast, thx.
http://physicsbuzz.physicscentral.com/2014/11/podcast-recreating-isaac-asimovs.html
Dang. There was going to be a pretty nice birthing shed ’round the back.
Narad 425#,
Thank you for posting the #381 link. I did not know about pseudoallergy. Thanks for the education.
NOF is claiming their product is ultra pure therefore low degranulation. If complement activation is a non-IgE mediated pathway, would purity change degranulation?
http://www.polysorbate.jp/polysorbate_4.html
says:
“On the other hand, conventional Polysorbate 80 contains numerous impurities and different fatty acid residues.”
Does fatty acid residues not mean food allergens?
Could this explain how they achieved low degranulation? By reducing allergens?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23159336
also about complement activation says:
“These findings raise concerns with regard to the indiscriminate use of Tween® 80 in clinical applications.”
So, it looks like you have pointed out one more reason to get rid of Polysorbate 80 from vaccines.
MarkN:
Citation needed that vaccines can cause a trigger event that leads to allergies.
Sarah A $420,
I am not ignoring that data. As I have pointed out many times, for whatever reason, these researchers don’t pay attention to detail.
It is difficult to draw any useful conclusion from this study because they did not include exactly what vaccines were involved and what the ingredients were. If the vaccine mix/manufacturer/process changed in the middle of the period that was studied, it is easy to explain the entire outcome for all age groups. If that study is used to conclude that vaccines do not cause asthma using part of the data, then it is equally possible to conclude that vaccines cause asthma using the rest of the data. Bottom line, poor study, inconclusive results. And unfortunately, it looks like we have plenty of those.
That is why, like the Japanese studies I provided, you pick one variable at a time to get meaningful results.
Chris #418,
“Though, APV said his kid had an allergic reaction to a vaccine, I wonder how if the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program compensated his claim.”
I don’t think it qualifies. That program is a joke. The victim has to prove the vaccine is unsafe and caused the injury?
JGC #414,
If IgE measurements have no useful predictive value for real allergy, why do all these researchers keep using it?
Vaccine makers measure anti-body titers in clinical trials. Perhaps that’s a useless measure of real protection too?
MI Dawn #411,
So how do you explain the increase in food allergy over the past few decades?
Narad #407,
If “poorly hydrolyzed gelatin” is defined well enough for a real vaccine, it seemed like “gelatin-like protein” should be good enough for a hypothetical vaccine. In any case, the question is if gelatin immune response depends on people carrying HLA-DR9, then maybe vaccine viral protein immune response also is gene dependent?
No, it does not. It refers to the different fatty acids that are in the molecules that compose a sample of polysorbate 80. Oleic acid is the majority residue, but it’s not the only one; offhand, it looks like palmitic is next in line.
Oh, the irony.
You proposed a hypothetical virus, Mr. Details. Try reading the simplified reply again more slowly.
No, that’s a different question. You’re going to sprain something by constantly running around with goalposts, not to mention pretending that nobody’s noticing.
APV @432:
Citation needed that there has been an increase in food allergies, that it is a genuine increase and not just better detection, and…
Evidence needed to support your claim that said increase is caused by vaccination.
Further to #434, the fundamental point of NOF’s product seems to be that its final composition is 99% oleic acid (“residues,” if one must). I suspect that this also includes peroxides.
There is nothing whatever here that has anything to do with peanut allergens. I have already pointed out the basic manufacturing problem to you, but the far more knowledgeable Sian Williams has patiently presented you with the core problem that you need to address.
And you didn’t bother. Because you’re not interested. I HAZ ENGRISH PAYG SEZ “ALLERGY”!!1!11!!!
Unrelated babbling about “one more reason to get rid of Polysorbate 80″ is simply pretending that you managed to establish and defend something that is amenable to “increase” in the first place.
^ Grumble, grumble.
1. “99% oleic acid”
2. “the core problem“
@APV
Re: Vaccine Injury Compensation Program
So you think that people claiming an injury should simply be awarded money unless HHS can prove that the vaccine did not cause the injury?
Oh, and by the way, if someone suffers a certain condition within a specified time period following vaccination, they don’t even need to prove that the vaccine caused it. They just get the award. Those are called “Table Injuries”. As for anything not on the table, yes, they should have to prove the vaccine caused the injury. But even then, the burden of proof is quite a bit lower than what you would find in a tort claim. Keep in mind, in a tort suit, the “victim”, as you call them, not only has to prove the injury was caused by the vaccine, but that the manufacturer was negligent in some regard, AND their evidence must meet the Daubert Standard.
Neither actually. The petitioner only need to demonstrate that it was more likely than not that the vaccine caused the event. For example, if you drop your kid on his head a few days post-vaccination, you aren’t getting compensated for a vaccine injury.*
Is anyone else reminded of a certain someone who did the same Olympic-quality mental contortions to play armchair immunologist about latex?
* An actual NVICP claim.
APV, I’ll have to consider this evasive response as a tacit admission that you can’t provide any evidence demonstrating that people who receive PPI’s actually develop food allergies at a statistically greater incidence rate than people who do not.
@ Science Mom
Oh yes, and it was actually worse. It was going ad infinitum like this:
APV may err on the wild mass guess side (meaning, you lack evidence for your claims), but at least we got to see his claims.
Actually, in most cases no: they do not. The majority of compensation awarded to claimants by the NVICP (i.e., greater than 90% of all cases where compensation has been granted) are for table injuries which do not require the claimant demonstrate that (nor represent a finding that) the injury was caused by the vaccine.
@ Julian #429
My point goes to the genetic predisposition of the individual, and not to vaccine causing a hypersensitivity response that can be applied to a population. As to the individual predisposition, that’s a case by case measure from the health care provider, of which we don’t yet really have a great picture on every genomic possibility. Probably why we have such an interest in information technology, not only in this field, but onocology as well, maybe even more so.
So, my question as to citing as I’m not looking to apply an individual to the population — do you want me to cite the pathway of an antigen invoking an allergic reaction in an individual? I don’t know what that would really tell you that isn’t already common medical knowledge.
MI Dawn #411,
How do you think people get latex allergy? Chewing on pencil erasers? Multi-dose vaccine bottle caps contain latex. The vaccine is contaminated when holes are punched into the caps to draw the vaccine. Inject latex contaminated vaccines into people and you have a latex allergy epidemic.
At least in this case, instead of saying “oh, it’s a one in a million anaphylaxis problem”, they are actually trying to phase out rubber caps.
APV, in response to his experience with NVICP: “I don’t think it qualifies. That program is a joke. The victim has to prove the vaccine is unsafe and caused the injury?”
So, this is the same guy who previously said: “My son has had skin sensitivity tests and specific IgE tests. He has been prescribed Epipen. He spent a night in the ICU for an allergic reaction he suffered after receiving five vaccine shots in one sitting. The hospital reported that to the VAERS and sent his case to Johns Hopkins.”
So with the hospital actually sending in a VAERS report, you could not be bothered to follow up with the instructions on the Vaccine Information Sheet on how to make a claim with the NVICP.
For now one we will assume everything you said was a delusional fabrication. Especially since I have found claims that received compensation for allergic reactions here and there.
Though there were many that were dismissed. But since you had actual hospital records, you would have had a better chance… if you had actually tried.
And we all know that’s the only possible source of exposure to latex anyone could encounter during their lives, and that the incidence of latex allergies is much higher in developing nations which rely principally on immunization from multi-dose vials than in industrialized nations which do not.
Oh, wait…
Honestly, I think a more likely source of increased latex exposure comes from the Helium Privatization Act, which greatly reduced the price of helium, leading to a massive increase in use of helium party balloons, which are frequently made of latex and give off substantial amounts of easily-inhaled latex dust when popped. But I’m sure that’s not as fun an explanation if you’re looking to justify your believe that vaccines cause everything horrible. 😉
Also, APV does not appear to have many any real attempt to obtain compensation for his child’s injury, which seems odd to me. He says “That program is a joke. The victim has to prove the vaccine is unsafe and caused the injury?”
No. The whole point of NVICP is that you don’t have the same burden of proof found in civil court. All you have to demonstrate is that it was *plausible* that you or your child was injured, and if it’s a table injury (that is, one the court already knows about), all you need to provide is the date of the vaccination and some sort of documentation that the injury happened a plausible time after. Hospitalization for anaphylaxis following a vaccination? That should be trivial to demonstrate, so if APV is serious, he really should go do that.
It’s always interesting when a commenter comes in with The Story. An elaborate, dramatic anecdote of so-and-so’s medical trauma caused by thus-and-such and the awfulness that has ensured because of (place vast shadowy conspiracy here).
Then come the logical and cogent questions from the scientists and doctors in our ranks.
Then come the “I’ve been studying this for years” and “because it feels right to me” responses with links to either dubious sites (Mikey et al.) or respectable sites whose conclusions are utterly mangled by our plucky hero.
Then come more cogent questions from our commentariat and debunking of bad scientific and statstical interpretations.
Then comes the indignation and a rehash of The Story and some bits about how awful their lives have been and more links.
Then comes doubt, more debunking and questions about flaws in the timeline of The Story as it spreads across hundreds of posts. Snark increases in intensity. Denice writes a sonnet. Orac warns. HDB and Krebiozen whip out slide rules and metrics. If the Pharma Shill Gambit is raised a certain scaly overlord might chime in. PGP makes a good point but takes an ill-advised swipe at (insert subgroup here). Mayhem ensues in the back and forth.
Then comes The Flounce! Often with accusations of monstrous, unfeeling cruelty and kitten-eating on our part.
Then comes the “don’t let the door hit you on the arse on the way out” from several of the commentariat. Then we all apologize for stepping on each others toes and congratulate ourselves on our resolve. Recipes are exchanged. Then . . .
Troll fails to stick the flounce (how shocking). We press on into the mid hundreds and the process repeats itself as the dead horse that is The Story is beaten into a fine paste. Recipes for Horse Tartare are exchanged . . .
Pareidolius wins the thread! Brilliant summation.
Pareidolus — those who won’t stick the flounce always get “When The Foeman Bears His Steel” from The Pirates of Penzance running through my head.
Chorus: We go! We go!
Major-General Stanley: You’re still here!
Chorus: Yes, yes, we go!
Major-General Stanley: But you don’t go!
Chorus: We go! We go!
Major-General Stanley Dammit, they don’t go.
And so on for at least one more reprise.
I can only hope that I don’t become a zombie. Due to my congenital hypopituitarism, I received several years of growth hormone treatment while (not) growing up, back before synthetic hGH was available. So, after years of “cadaverous extract” pituitary injected intramuscularly, surely I’ve developed a serious food allergy to brains..?
@Calli Arcale: But then he’d have to *prove* his story. With medical records. Not just his verbal “this happened and it was so horrible”.
Personally, if my child had had a reaction like that to a vaccine, I would have reported it to the VAERS database and happily supplied records if questioned. And if there were sequelae such as APV describes, I would have gone to NVICP *because* that is what it’s set up for. No one would argue that anaphylaxis after a vaccine isn’t a table injury and compensation would be readily available. So why hasn’t APV done this?
(Of course, I could answer my own question – in APV’s words….”It’s all because the EVIL BIG PHARMA doesn’t WANT you to know vaccines can cause injuries. They don’t believe me when I tell them what happened. The doctors all denied it was possible and rigged the medical records. I know, I was there, I HAVE PROOF!!!!11111!!!!”)
APV @447: Re Latex allergies. Latex allergies oftem arise in people who are regularly exposed to latex. This is why latex gloves are no longer powdered with latex dust; because it was associated with increased latex allergies.
Separately a latex allergy can be cross-linked with a kiwi, pineapple, and mango allergies. because the specific protein involved is similarly shaped.
And on the subject of food allergies, you do know that most of the immune system lives in the gut, right?
If you are serious about this, I would highly recommend Janeway’s Immunobiology. It’s one of the best introductory textbooks.
[…] 2015. How to be a reviewer/editor Before and After: Respiratory Microbes among Pilgrims to the Hajj No, the CDC did not just apologize and admit that this year’s flu vaccine doesn’t work How Science Can Tell If Your Great-Grandparents Were Strikebreakers: Christine Kenneally on the […]
For a state that has a high level of science & education in it, and touted as a beacon of personal health and well-being, looks like my home state is also the pinnacle of really bad decisions on infectious disease:
http://www.kunc.org/post/colorados-personal-belief-exemption-target-new-report
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6341a1.htm
In fairness, I should correct my statements on religion in my state as they show much more responsible compliance (1% waiver) than the personal-exemption (94%). Considering I put in a lot of hours at one of the best catholic hospitals, they actually do have great people there that take community health as the highest priority. And, the children’s is really top notch. Surprising that the state sucks so much at the reality of infectious disease.
However, the Southeast, with all it’s mass of health problems, surprisingly shows pretty high compliance in taking on infectious disease. I really wouldn’t have thought that.
(sorry #458 post was meant for another topic). But if it gets this closer to 500, so be it.
@ Pareidolius:
Oh. Is that what I do?
At any rate, I am extremely pleased to be included in such esteemed sceptical company.
“Is that what I do? Let us count the ways…
As the sun rises on a tear-stained keyboard,
with lofty ideals and primed ambitions,
The brave warriors gird their loins for yet another day,
dismissive of the heat and sound
that pours forth from melted electron screens,
and once more join forces to lay waste the grey dawn of time, incognisant of Time’s unremitting scythe.
One might wonder what’s become of the ORI review of his two-month-old allegations letter.
@Narad
I’m certain it’s been filed appropriately.
It turns out that the language of 42 CFR Part 93 does indeed make notification to the complainant of shіtcanning completely optional.
@ dingo199:
Ha ha ha
.At least I never follow an antique rhyming scheme.
JustaTech #457,
“And on the subject of food allergies, you do know that most of the immune system lives in the gut, right?”
Thanks for posting that. The gut is where it all begins. In the past few decades, 20-30% of US kids were delivered via C-section. As you know, c-section births result in sub-optimal gut microbiome. These kids develop an unbalanced immune system primed for allergies (IgE), as a result. Vaccines of course contain food proteins and adjuvants which are administered up to five shots in one sitting. HLA-DR9 carriers in Japan were found to be more susceptible to developing allergy to gelatin. Likewise, I believe IgE primed kids are more susceptible to developing allergy to any protein in vaccines/injections.
Increasing c-sections.
Increasing number of vaccines in the schedule.
Increasing number of simultaneous shots (up to 5, increasing immunogenicity due to epitope spreading?)
Increasing food allergies.
Mere coincidence? I don’t think so.
justthestats #279,
Since you said your family suffers food allergies, thought this may be of interest, if you have not seen it already …
A diet enriched with cocoa prevents IgE synthesis in a rat allergy model.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22342543
As fruitless as this type of question has proved to be in your case, I’m still inclined to wonder what meaning you assign to the word “likewise” here.
Please try to use some sort of abstract logical description. Then the propositions themselves can be dealt with. Again.
Or not.
JGC #449,
Risk of anaphylaxis to latex from injection obtained from rubber-stoppered vials.
http://www.aaaai.org/ask-the-expert/anaphylaxis-to-latex.aspx
As I have written many times, if there is enough allergen to cause elicitation, there is more than enough to cause sensitization.
Multiple surgeries is a risk factor for developing latex allergies because latex is repeatedly introduced in the body where sensitization can occur.
With vaccines, latex is introduced with adjuvants and viral proteins which increase immunogenicity.
Yes, like mammals, allergens are an undifferentiated blob.
Do you stand by this, or not? Here:
When gelatin is sent through “hydrolyzation hell”, it should “kill” the allergen. So hydrolyzed gelatin was deemed good enough for vaccines.
There was no specification, enforcement or test for trace quantities of gelatin allergens.
For profit manufacturers, cut corners to make products that barely meet the customer’s needs. Otherwise, they will go out of business.
The HLA-DR9 carriers in Japan turned out to be the canaries in the coal mine who discovered “poorly hydrolyzed gelatin” in their vaccines.
Now we have a “special hell” used to process Polysorbate 80 which is also supposed to “kill” all the food allergens used in the manufacture of Polysorbate 80.
Having learned nothing from history …
There are no specifications, enforcement or tests for trace quantities of allergens in Polysorbate 80. Either by the FDA or by the U.S. Pharmacopeial Convention.
Magically, we expect the Polysorbate 80 in our vaccines to be pure and pristine.
Apparently, the vaccine makers and the FDA have never heard of Murphy’s law.
Kids born via c-section and primed for allergies are the canaries in our coal mine. At least to me, it seems like our kids have discovered a problem …
Narad #472,
In the cocoa study, rats were injected with a pertussis vaccine containing alum as an adjuvant and ovalbumin.
Rats that were fed cocoa did not develop ovalbumin IgE.
Rats not fed cocoa developed ovalbumin IgE.
I of course stand by my Polysorbate 80 / peanut statement.
Sorry, but what’s the connection?
Congratulations, you’ve invented a term to “answer” a specific question that you had had less delicately pointed out previously.
I’m still waiting for you to identify a single assertion that you concede was a load of crap, which is precisely why I singled out an example in #472.
Well?
@APV:
Once again, citation needed that there is a genuine increase in allergies, and not just better detection of same.
Oh, I see that the replies crossed paths. You stand by the assertion that vaccines might contain peanut oil because polysorbate 80. Got it.
The connection is rather simple: Despite being wholly unable to defend a litany of random assertions and trying to change the subject instead, they all remain totes eleventy valid.
So, great, you’re effectively a robot with a lone tactic of wasting other people’s time. Bye.
Drop it, APV. If you failed to convince the NVICP with its low bar for evidence, it is obvious your story and “scientific” claims have no valid basis.
You are now just a boring one trick troll bot.
You’ve yet to provide any evidence that the use of latex-containing stoppers in single or multidose vaccine vials is a significant contributor to increased incidence of acquired latex allergies, APV—and quite frankly, given the number of sources of exposure to latex we encounter daily it isn’t a particularly plausible. It remains entirely an unsupported assertion on your part.
Can you provide any actual evidence this is the case—something like epidemiologic studies which find a statitistically greater incidence of latex allergies in individuals who have been vaccinated from latex stoppered or multidose vials versus those who have been vaccinated using non-latex stoppered or single dose vials?
Or is this, like your claim that vaccination is causally associated with increased incidence of food allergies, also rooted in nothing other than “Well, it could happen, couldn’t it?” handwaving?
Isn’t the “c-sections cause allergies” a variation on the hygiene hypothesis, since the reasoning is that kids aren’t getting as immediate an exposure to normal gut bacteria? On that basis, vaccines should actually help *prevent* allergies, since they replace some of the missing antigen exposure in early life. But I would not expect consistency from a person who grasps one tiny thing that seems to possibly tangentially relate to his point while ignoring the entire body around it which contradicts his point. Such is the behavior of one seeking justification rather than proof.
Perhaps APV would like to add this: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/836393 (the primary literature) to his/her reading list and come back with a tortured explanation of how it can’t be correct.
There is evidence that children delivered by c0-section adn children delivered by vaginal birth exhibit different gut microbiomes. Of course children who have different diets, who are bottle-fed versus breast fed, etc., do as well. Whether or not ‘different’ in all cases must equal ‘suboptimal’, however, is not established.
While there does appear to be an association between c-section delivery and some immune-mediated disorders (e.g., asthma and juvenile arthritis) with respect to the incidence of food and other allergies (see PMID:25452656), which seem to be APV’s obsessions in this thread, if anything the evidence goes the other way (see PMID:23826787).
In any event, unless he’s going to try to argue that routine vaccination from latex-capped multidose vials containing polysorbate 80 derived from peanuts causes c-sections, I’m not sure what APV hopes to achieve by bringing up c-sections.
(Further to my #454)…
Oh, dear. I was born via C-section. That means I almost certainly have developed a food allergy to brains! Anybody know how allergies would manifest in zombies?
PS: I did a Google search of RI with my name yesterday, just to look back at some of my earlier comments, and found a few references to a John Richard Smith (aka Blackheart). I would just like to mention that I’m not him. I’m also not the author of such titles as “How to Lose Weight During Sex” or “Your Cat is Just Not That Into You”, just in case anyone was wondering. Almost 500 comments down in a completely unrelated post is as good a place as any to mention this, right?
They are invariably fatal but, fortunately, no one can tell.
The sneezing eventually causes various body parts to fly off in random directions. However, I like the idea of a television show called The Scratching Dead.
APV#430
Um, yes, you did ignore the data. You cited two data points that you (erroneously) believed supported your hypothesis while pointedly failing to mention that the very next entry in the same table contradicted the point you were trying to make. You had no problem with the study’s results when you thought you could use them to score a point, but since I called you out on it now you’re going to whine that the study is “inconclusive.” Well, no single study is ever conclusive, that’s why I pointed out that you could find several more studies, including a review, in the references, which you’ve also studiously ignored. Unfortunately, exams are coming up and I don’t have unlimited time to waste on your intellectual dishonesty, so I’ll just sum up for the folks playing at home:
1) There is no evidence that vaccinated individuals are more likely to develop allergies than unvaccinated individuals
2)There is consistent, repeatable evidence that vaccinated individuals are not more likely to develop allergies than unvaccinated individuals
3) Therefore, there is no legitimate reason to undertake the massive, time consuming, expensive research that would be required to exonerate every individual vaccine ingredient individualy, especialy since
4) Whenever researchers do perform studies focusing on single vaccine ingredients (such as thimerosol or aluminum), the antivaxers claim that those studies are “inconclusive” because the real problem is actually the combination of vaccines. Or the timing. Or some rare genetic predisposition to “vaccine injury.” Or the color of the band-aid the kid gets afterwards. And so on, ad infinitum.
Julian Frost #476,
As far as I know there is no routine allergy testing.
People get tested because they have symptoms.
Better detection cannot explain it.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db121.htm
Why are there more allergic reactions in schools/aircraft cabins for example, if it is just a detection issue?
JGC 479#,
I have numerous times provided citations to studies showing injection of egg and gelatin causing those allergies respectively.
I have also pointed out (with citations) that the same mechanism is routinely used to induce food allergy in lab animals.
Charles Richet showed a 100 years ago that any protein you inject into a mammal can cause sensitization.
You want to ignore all this evidence and you want more citations. There seems to be no point in giving you any more citations.
Calli Arcale #480,
Missing normal gut bacteria may be part of the problem. But there are also a higher amount of “at risk” bacteria that alter the immune balance.
“In the gastrointestinal tract of babies born by c-section, there is a pattern of “at risk” microorganisms that may cause them to be more vulnerable to developing the antibody Immunoglobulin E, or IgE, when in contact with allergens” – Christine Cole Johnson, Ph.D., MPH, chair of Henry Ford Department of Health Sciences.
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749%2812%2903130-2/fulltext
“vaccines should actually help *prevent* allergies,”
Developing nations vaccinate a lot less than us. Yet they have less allergies and we have more. How do you explain that?
Science Mom #481,
Your article contradicts itself.
Dr. Offit says:
“If you look at children in the developing world — where they are much more likely to be exposed to infections earlier in life and where their intestines are often colonized by toxin-producing bacteria and parasites — the incidence of allergies and asthma is lower than in children in the developed world,”
Vaccination rates are way less in the developing world.
If vaccinations protect against allergies, the developed world should be allergy-free.
Sarah A #486,
“You cited two data points that you (erroneously) believed supported your hypothesis while pointedly failing to mention that the very next entry in the same table contradicted the point you were trying to make.”
The authors ignored the data points and wrongly concluded:
“The prevalence of allergic diseases and non-specific infections in children and adolescents was not found to depend on vaccination status.”
So it is especially important to point those out.
The “very next entry” is already accounted in the authors’ conclusion.
JGC #482,
PMID:23826787
13 of 17 measures show worse outcome with c-section.
And perhaps the Finns do a better job of controlling the “at risk” bacteria in their hospitals.
“In the gastrointestinal tract of babies born by c-section, there is a pattern of “at risk” microorganisms that may cause them to be more vulnerable to developing the antibody Immunoglobulin E, or IgE, when in contact with allergens” – Christine Cole Johnson, Ph.D., MPH, chair of Henry Ford Department of Health Sciences.
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749%2812%2903130-2/fulltext
Food allergy too …
http://www.webmd.com/allergies/news/20041020/c-section-may-increase-kids-allergy-risks
And …
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19076564
APV,
You appear to be impervious to any kind of argument or evidence, so this is probably a waste of time, but anyway….
No, you have mentioned the Japanese experience in which poor quality gelatin in a vaccine gelatin allergy in a very few isolated cases where people had a specific genetic susceptibility. You haven’t provided any evidence that egg in vaccines has caused allergy – just because people produce some IgE doesn’t mean they are allergic, and the only people in that study with elevated IgE were shown to be allergic to other common environmental allergens.
And I pointed out that this is so difficult they have had to breed animal with a genetic susceptibility to developing allergies.
The amounts used to cause sensitization in animals are far higher than the amounts found in vaccines. For example this article by Anderson and Rosenau (PDF), following up on some of Richet’s observations states:
So in guinea pigs a minimum of 0.001 mL, or about 1,000 micrograms, of euglobulins were required to sensitize the animals. Since a guinea pig weighs about 1 kg, this is the equivalent of a dose of at least 3,000 micrograms in a human (assuming a baby weighing 3 kg). I am not aware of any vaccine that contains this much protein, whether from foods or anything else. Flulaval contains less than 0.3 micrograms of egg protein, for example.
The evidence you cite does not support your assertions. Just providing evidence that something is possible is not evidence that it is true. We have provided direct evidence that your hypothesis is wrong, for example studies that find lower incidence of allergies in vaccinated people.
You miss the point, again. Fewer childhood infections are associated with more allergies, which is one reason we see more allergies in the developed world. Among those in the developed world, who suffer fewer infections whether vaccinated or not (thanks to better hygiene, herd immunity etc.), we find that vaccines reduce the incidence of allergies.
As I pointed out before back at #85, and Sian has reiterated:
The authors were quite correct in their conclusions as none of the associations, positive or negative, were statistically significant and were likely due to chance.
The increased incidence of food allergy in those born by c-section, has not been confirmed; other studies find no association e.g. PMID: 18976354. I don’t see how this supports your hypothesis that vaccines cause food allergies. It seems likely that delayed exposure to normal bacteria is responsible, as others here have suggested. Also, one of the studies you linked to points out that developing IgE-mediated sensitization to food allergens does not necessarily mean a patient has a food allergy. We produce IgE normally; it’s an important defense against parasitic infection, and merely demonstrating that someone has produced a small amount IgE is not evidence of allergy.
No blockquote fail (hurrah!), but a typo:
” it isn’t very surprising that none of the unvaccinated children aged 1-10 years were not asthmatic” should read ” it isn’t very surprising that none of the unvaccinated children aged 1-10 years were asthmatic”, obviously.
APV: My unscientific guess is that more allergies are documented in schools because the kids are 1) extensively documented (all records are easily trackable) and 2)exposed to different things then they would be at home. As far as airplanes go..uh, it’s a small enclosed space with recycled air, so any allergen in it is going to be more concentrated. You might as well ask why respiratory infections have such a high incidence among air travelers or students. Also, peanuts are a very common allergy, and until recently, they were a common airline food.
Reading along, I see analyzing data isn’t your strong suit. You might want to consider: how diets in the developing world differ from American/European diets, whether a kid in the developing world could survive an allergic reaction, and that a few decades ago, allergic reactions weren’t even survivable in the US or Europe.
It appears that we approach the magical number of 500 comments due to our critic’s er… um.. analytical abilities.
I wins!
Where’s my prize?
Danggit — I had a great post too for 500
Angelina goes down with infectious disease:
Shots…who needs shots when you can consciously-uncouple from a microbe…..(yes, I know that was Paltrow)..
Kidding aside, Chicken Pox is kind of a big deal in adults. Hopefully it works out for her, because it’s gonna suck.
Krebiozen #495,
” just because people produce some IgE doesn’t mean they are allergic, and the only people in that study with elevated IgE were shown to be allergic to other common environmental allergens.”
They did not produce “some IgE”, they produced anti-ovalbumin IgE. The study clearly demonstrates that ovalbumin in the vaccine caused new anti-ovalbumin IgE synthesis in some patients and an increase in anti-ovalbumin IgE in patients who already had that IgE, pre-vaccination.
“So in guinea pigs a minimum of 0.001 mL, or about 1,000 micrograms, of euglobulins were required to sensitize the animals. Since a guinea pig weighs about 1 kg, this is the equivalent of a dose of at least 3,000 micrograms in a human (assuming a baby weighing 3 kg). I am not aware of any vaccine that contains this much protein, whether from foods or anything else. Flulaval contains less than 0.3 micrograms of egg protein, for example.”
That is contradicted by the fact that just 15 mcg of HA viral protein was able to produce anti-influenza IgE in 3 of 3 adults (100%), even without adjuvants. C-section births increases IgE synthesis risk by 5X in children. So add c-section and adjuvant factors that increase immunogenicity and you have created your own HLA-DR9 situation for all vaccines.
Then you have to include epitope spreading effects.
May be those animal researchers could learn a few things from the human food allergy model. Deliver rats via c-section, use anti-biotics to kill good gut bacteria, use human vaccines, five shots at a time, it seems to work very well in humans … to produce food allergies.
Smith-Norowitz TA, Wong D, Kusonruksa M, Norowitz KB, Joks R, Durkin HG, Bluth MH. Long Term Persistence of IgE Anti-Influenza Virus Antibodies in Pediatric and Adult Serum Post Vaccination with Influenza Virus Vaccine. Int J Med Sci 2011; 8(3):239-244. doi:10.7150/ijms.8.239. Available from http://www.medsci.org/v08p0239.htm
“Fewer childhood infections are associated with more allergies, which is one reason we see more allergies in the developed world.”
Which is the same as saying, children in the developed world are primed for IgE synthesis. This is why they are our version of HLA-DR9. You cannot inject food proteins into such susceptible children without serious consequences.
“We produce IgE normally; it’s an important defense against parasitic infection, and merely demonstrating that someone has produced a small amount IgE is not evidence of allergy.”
I don’t think we produce food specific IgE to defend against parasitic infection. As the Japanese egg allergy study showed, people increased their IgE level by up to two RAST classes due to the flu vaccine. Even if these people did not initially have food allergy symptoms, with repeated injections they will develop real allergy and symptoms.
Why is DTaP a series of five shots? The antigens are weakly immunogenic. With five shots, patients progressively develop protection. Same for food proteins allergy development. Whole limb swelling after DTaP is a symptom that is associated with the last two shots of the series. Exactly as one would expect. Patients develop more and more IgE against the antigens as they get more shots thus showing progressively more significant allergic elicitations on challenge with the same proteins.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10617749
So basically, you keep injecting food proteins, people slowly progress towards full blown food allergy.
In theory, pure vaccines (only viral/bacterial proteins) may protect against allergies.
It is a fact that real vaccines have allergens.
It is a fact that there are more allergies in the developed world.
It is a fact that vaccination rates are much higher in the developed.
So any claim of vaccines preventing allergies is at best an insignificant effect that is lost in the noise.
Politicalguineapig #498,
My point was that the allergies are real. They are documented in schools and airplanes because they occur. They are not just an effect of better allergy testing that just show up only in the medical records. These are real allergies that show up in the real world.
Krebiozen #495,
As I wrote before, if IgE does not have good predictive value, why do researchers keep using it? Why do vaccine makers use antibody titers? If IgE measures are no good for allergy, antibody titers must be no good for determining vaccine effectiveness either. It cuts both ways.
Krebiozen #495,
Thanks for the great paper by Anderson and Rosenau.
“We have before called attention to the fact that care must be taken in drawing conclusions as to the different effect of various agencies upon the sensitizing and toxic properties of proteins, for we have found that only I/IOOOOOO cubic centi- meter of horse serum will sensitize a guinea-pig, and Wells has found that I/20000000 of a gram of purified egg-white would do likewise. It requires considerably larger amounts to poison the animal.”
Without the benefit of IgE testing, they were able to observe sensitization to 50 nanogram ( I/20000000 gram) of egg-white in 1909!
One simple question: More than one hundred years later, is it too much to ask that the FDA determine a safe limit for the amount of food allergens in vaccines and establish/enforce a specification? Especially in the context of a food allergy epidemic sweeping the developed world?
APC, stop being a spamming troll bot.
APV @ 492
I can’t decide if you linked to the wrong article, didn’t read the article, or simply don’t understand the article, but somehow you’ve provided the Pubmed ID number for an article which doesn’t once mention gut microbiomes and which concludes “Insufficient evidence was found in our population for any association between birth by caesarean section and allergic manifestations” to try to argue that caesarean sections result in suboptimal gut microbiomes and these predispose subjects to developing food allergies.
One has to ask: what were you thinking?
.
APV, I opened that link you provided in #487. Colour me rather unimpressed. As for
If the symptoms are missed, the person likely doesn’t get tested. That’s one example of how better detection can explain it.
FTFY. The aircraft cabin issue has been answered. As for schools, I would imagine that for reasons of safety (and avoiding lawsuits), teachers and other school employees are trained to recognise the signs of an allergic reaction. Once again, better detection is a viable explanation, your comments notwithstanding.
APV:
List them please. Oh, and don’t say “peanut oil”.
See comment about better detection.
Oh I see. You’re making a correlation causation error.
Given that you’ve been given a study showing that the vaccinated have a lower rate of allergies, you are, to put it kindly, handwaving.
You came in here with an idée fixée that vaccines provoke allergies. You have ignored and derided evidence that undermines your belief. Around here, people who stick to bad theories get very short shrift. I’m pretty much done with you, but you have some utility as a chew toy.
APV: And my point, which sailed over your head, is that you are confusing rate of incidence with rate of allergies, and concluding that because there were no recorded incidents 100 years ago, that there were no food allergies 100 years ago. Same thing with allergy rates in the developing world- we don’t know anything about that because people with life-threatening allergies usually die in the developing world.
You are also discounting why allergies happen- kids in the US are raised in sterilized environments and rarely allowed outside, leading to a bored and overreactive immune system
JGC #492,
I just quoted the study you provided, for context. Looks like you did not recognize what you posted!
“PMID:23826787”
My link is:
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749%2812%2903130-2/fulltext
Julian Frost #509,
“List them please. Oh, and don’t say “peanut oil”.”
Listed them back in #283. Here it is again …
Vaccines contain, egg, casein, agar directly listed. And as I have written before, Polysorbate 80 is a source of undisclosed, uncontrolled allergens.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf
Politicalguineapig #510,
“Same thing with allergy rates in the developing world- we don’t know anything about that because people with life-threatening allergies usually die in the developing world.”
There are millions who will show allergy symptoms along with some who may unfortunately be killed by allergies. I lived for 27 years in a third world country. No food allergies there. It is a struggle to explain the alien concept of food allergy to many of them.
“You are also discounting why allergies happen- kids in the US are raised in sterilized environments and rarely allowed outside, leading to a bored and overreactive immune system”
You are correct. What you wrote is exactly what I was saying.
Children in the US are primed for allergies. In other words, the way kids are raised here increases their risk of developing allergies. However, they cannot automatically become allergic to eggs for example because of the way they are raised. The key point your are missing is that you have to introduce the allergen to the immune system at a location where allergy can develop. The sensitization locations are, far as I know, skin (eczema), intramuscular/intradermal vaccines or the gut (when stomach is reduced). Intranasal vaccines are safe from the allergy perspective.
In other words, raising kids in sterilized conditions may be a necessary but not sufficient condition for allergy development.
Sorry “when stomach is reduced” should read “when stomach acid is reduced”.
AAAAI: Kids May React to Milk Proteins in DPT Shot
http://www.medpagetoday.com/MeetingCoverage/AAAAI/25520
Adacel vaccine has casamino acid (milk proteins):
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/biologicsbloodvaccines/vaccines/approvedproducts/ucm142764.pdf
Enough milk protein in vaccine to cause a reaction means more than enough to cause sensitization.
I got an ear worm this evening from seeing APV posts:
Trollin’, Trollin’, Trollin’
Trollin’, Trollin’, Trollin’
Trollin’, Trollin’, Trollin’
Trollin’, Trollin’, Trollin’
Rawhide!
Trollin’, Trollin’, Trollin’
Though the threads are swollen
Keep them stooges Trollin’
Rawhide!
Anaphylaxis to diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis vaccines among children with cow’s milk allergy
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(11)00747-0/fulltext
The DTaP and TDaP were found to contain 8-17 ng/ml of casein. It does not take a lot.
“Manufacturer investigation and possible labeling or elimination of casein from the vaccines might avoid this risk.”
Elimination of casein from the vaccines. Have we heard that before?
Kuno-Sakai H, Kimura M. Removal of gelatin from live vaccines and DTaP-an ultimate solution for vaccine-related gelatin allergy.Biologicals 2003;31:245-9.
APV,
Repeating your misconceptions over and over doesn’t make them true.
The important thing is how much, as it is normal to produce some IgE. The reference range is up to 100 kIU/l and the reference range for specific IgE is up to 0.37 kIU/L, but you usually see much higher values in those with allergies.
What do you mean by “already had that IgE, pre-vaccination”? If you look at Figure 3 (b), it is clear that the great majority of subjects already had some IgE-specific antibody to egg white.
They define significant rises as “1.5-fold or greater”, but these are not particularly high levels; the highest sIgE is less than 1.5 kIU/L. You need to see sIgE of 6.3 kIU/L to have a 90% probability of egg allergy. I have seen IgE in the thousands in patients with allergies.
Again you are conflating the production of IgE with the development of sensitivity. As I have repeatedly told you, it is normal to produce some IgE.
Yet the systematic review I quoted from above found, “these conclusions may not be reliable”, and stated, “further studies using objectively diagnosed food allergy as the outcome are needed to verify whether this equates to an increase in confirmed food allergy”. That’s hardly conclusive evidence.
No you haven’t. If his scenario was correct, the association would be very obvious, and it isn’t.
Only in your imagination, thankfully.
The paper concludes, “Our discovery also suggests that the IgE molecule has evolved to serve various beneficial functions, including anti-viral […] The results presented here suggest that IgE is associated with anti-influenza immunity and their memory responses”.
What relevance does this have to your hypothesis? It suggests that IgE production is part of a normal response to infection, not that influenza vaccine produces allergy to influenza viruses.
Children in the developing world are primed for IgE production too, as part of a defense against parasitic infection. It isn’t the production of IgE per se that is the problem in allergies, it’s type 1 hypersensitivity, one symptom of which is elevated IgE.
Yet the evidence tells us the opposite.
No, it is the ability to produce IgE that defends against parasitic infection. In the case of an allergy the immune system mistakes a food protein for a pathogen, parasitic or perhaps viral.
So where is the epidemic of people going into anaphylactic shock after their annual influenza vaccine?
Because that’s how it works best to develop immunity.
That doesn’t look like an allergic reaction to me, and the studies I looked at suggested it was a reaction to residual active pertussis toxoid in the vaccine, not IgE-mediated at all.
If it is “lost in the noise” how is it that the study Science Mom cited at #481 found:
APV,
Let’s see exactly what Wells* wrote in the paper they refer to:
It seems that Anderson and Rosenau were mistaken, as that’s a minimum of 6.3 micrograms of purified egg protein (not just egg white) required to sensitize a 300 gram guinea pig (5 times more to produce fatal sensitivity), not 50 nanograms. If we extrapolate to humans, we would require 1,470 micrograms of egg protein to sensitize an average 70 kg human. The lowest normal weight of a six month old baby (youngest age at which influenza vaccine is recommended) is 6.7 kg, requiring 140 micrograms of egg protein to sensitize her/him, 700 micrograms to induce fatal sensitivity.
What’s the maximum amount of egg protein found in influenza vaccines? This study found a maximum of 1.4 micrograms per ml. in Fluzone (much less in other vaccines), which amounts to a dose of 0.7 micrograms in a six-month-old child. That’s 250 times less than the minimum dose required to produce sensitization in a guinea pig, a more than adequate safety margin, in my opinion.
Where have you looked for the specification for the amount of allergen in vaccines? How do you know there isn’t an industry specification for this?
Is there really a food allergy epidemic? A review of allergies over a 20 year period in the UK (PMID: 25468198) found an increase in hospital admissions for anaphylaxis but no change in fatalities, suggesting that “changes in the recognition and management of anaphylaxis might explain some of the observed increase in anaphylaxis-related hospitalizations”. The increase in admissions for anphlaxis after insect stings supports this hypothesis.
* It’s H.G. Wells, amusingly, but not the H.G. Wells.
APV: No, allergies develop when the immune system is underutilized and starts firing randomly at substances it decides are intolerable. Children can grow out of intolerances- a few people develop allergies as adults despite happily consuming the allergen in childhood. I don’t know why you’ve chosen this particular hill, but maybe you should find something else to be a crank about, as you don’t actually understand biology.
@APV:
You may have written it. That doesn’t make it so.
Krebiozen #519,
Thanks for another excellent reference ( H G Wells).
You were looking two paragraphs too far down. Table 1 shows 50 nanogram and he put it in words below to ensure nobody miscounts the number of zeroes …
“From this series it is seen that one-millionth of a cubic centi-meter of 5 per cent solution of pure egg albumin, or one-twentieth of a millionth of a gram of protein, will sensitize a guinea-pig enough so that distinct and typical symptoms are produced after a second injec-tion of the same material, while one-fifty-thousandth of a cubic centi- meter of solution containing but one-millionth of a gram of protein sensitizes fatally.”
Anaphylaxis to diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis vaccines among children with cow’s milk allergy
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(11)00747-0/fulltext
The DTaP and TDaP were found to contain 8-17 ng/ml of casein.
You know that it takes far less to sensitize than it takes for anaphylaxis. So as little as 8-17ng/ml seemed enough to cause anaphylaxis.
“Where have you looked for the specification for the amount of allergen in vaccines? How do you know there isn’t an industry specification for this?”
1. I asked the FDA and they responded:
“There is not, as you describe it, an FDA determined safe amount of a potentially allergenic ingredient contained in a vaccine. The FDA reviews vaccine composition in its entirety to ensure the safety and efficacy of the vaccine.”
2.United States Pharmacopeia (USP) responded:
“The FDA are the ones, with the pharmaceutical companies who develop the limits that are used in the USP-NF monographs.”
3. The Kattan et. al, milk allergy paper is co-authored by Dr. Sampson and Dr. Sicherer who are well known food allergy experts.
If there was a specification, I would expect they would have compared their casein measurements against the spec. It would tell them if the manufacturer was violating spec. or if the specification needs to be revised based on their anaphylaxis findings. Since there is no mention of a spec. I think it is clear that one does not exist.
Kattan et. al, instead mention elimination of casein which is even better. A specification of 0 ng/ml.
APV, I read the paper in the link you provided.
Your original argument was that vaccines provoke allergies.
In the paper:
Most children with cow’s milk allergy receive these vaccines without incident, but the patients we identified have very severe milk allergy, very high milk-specific IgE levels, and, for 4 of them, past reactions to trace milk contamination.
So the patients were already allergic to milk. Once again, your argument fails to hold up.
Julian Frost #523,
I provided Kattan et. al, as a reference for:
1. How little a dose of casein (8-17ng/ml) it takes to cause anaphylaxis in an allergic person.
2. The authors recommending elimination of casein from vaccines.
Further, as shown here, it takes a lot less allergen to cause sensitization than it does to cause anaphylaxis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9949325
So if 8-17 ng/ml is enough to cause anaphylaxis, it is more than enough to cause sensitization.
The references for vaccines causing the development of allergies are:
a. Gelatin in vaccines was proved to be the cause of gelatin allergy.
Kuno-Sakai H, Kimura M. Removal of gelatin from live vaccines and DTaP-an ultimate solution for vaccine-related gelatin allergy.Biologicals 2003;31:245-9.
b. Egg in the flu vaccine caused the development of egg allergy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2249232/pdf/epidinfect00008-0113.pdf
The truly annoying part is that he could come up with better attempts to defend his assertions, but he doesn’t know how to, so he just repeats the same things over and over again.
Just as there was a much better reference for the gelatin routine that he somehow missed, it’s possible to contend that the major peanut allergens can maintain allergenicity at physical conditions in the ethoxylation vessel (no, I’m not going to hand him this one). Now, you still have to get it past the oleic acid production* and the ethylene oxide itself, but it would have been something.
* Which is all the NOF product really comes down to.
APV,
That’s for egg albumin fractionally recrystallized three times, yielding an extremely allergenic protein fraction, which isn’t added to vaccines. The figures I gave earlier was for purified egg protein, which is what is found in vaccines.
Krebiozen #526,
Vaccine makers document the amount of ovalbumin in the vaccine, not the amount of “unpurified mixed proteins of egg-white” as Wells describes it. So 50 ng of ovalbumin is the correct number to use to compare against vaccines. The figures you provided were for “unpurified mixed proteins of egg-white”.
APV,
I’m curious. How much gelatin was in the DTaP? I can’t find any reference to that anywhere.
Why do you keep repeating this when the paper you cite says no such thing? They note that “16 (16-0%) had high IgE-specific antibody to F1 allergen before immunization”. yet, “Before immunization, physicians confirmed that there was no history of allergy to egg or chicken feathers”.
So the 16 subjects who had elevated egg Ige before vaccination were not allergic to eggs. Why would you assume that the 36 subjects whose IgE showed a modest increase after vaccination were made allergic to eggs by the vaccine? Elevated IgE when exposed to a protein is not sufficient to diagnose an allergy, in fact there are many people who show such an increase in IgE who have no clinical symptoms at all. Assuming that an moderate increase in IgE like this indicates an allergy being induced is a mistake.
If influenza vaccines really did cause egg allergy, wouldn’t we see an increase in fatal anaphylaxis after eating eggs or egg-containing foods? This Norwegian study in 2001 found a prevalence of 1.6% in a moderately vaccinated population, while this Turkish study from 2014 found a prevalence of 1.30% in a country with poor influenza vaccine coverage. Those numbers are remarkably similar, suggesting that there is a background rate of food allergy that has nothing to do with vaccines.
There is a lot of aluminum in foods, far more than in and vaccine); couldn’t this act as an adjuvant, making exposure to egg in food is a hugely more likely cause of egg allergy?
Indeed. Only Fluarix (PDF) specifies ovalbumin.
^ Rather than “egg proteins.” It’s possible to put upper limits (PDF) on how much is plain old ovalbumin.
Narad #525,
I am sure the hydrolyzation process is perfect too. So how did they end up with “poorly hydrolyzed gelatin” in the vaccine?
Flulaval ovalbumin:
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM404086.pdf
Afluria ovalbumin:
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM263239.pdf
For Sanofi Pasteur, you have to request it. Here’s the response:
“Thank you for contacting Sanofi Pasteur.
There is no specification for residual egg protein (expressed as ovalbumin) for influenza vaccines in the United States, nor is testing of the final product required for ovalbumin content. However, we can inform you that the residual egg protein (expressed as ovalbumin) in 2 of our 3 trivalent inactivated influenza vaccine (IIV3) formulations.
Fluzone (Influenza Virus Vaccine) and Fluzone High-Dose vaccine is typically on the order of 0.1 mcg per 0.5 mL dose. Despite being more concentrated, Fluzone High-Dose vaccine contains no more ovalbumin than does Fluzone vaccine, due to a differing manufacturing process.
The ovalbumin in our other IIV3 formulation, Fluzone Intradermal vaccine, is on the order of 0.02 mcg per 0.1 mL dose.
Testing for ovalbumin has been performed on a limited number of lots of our Quadrivalent inactivated influenza vaccine (IIV4) formulation, Fluzone Quadrivalent vaccine; results of this testing have shown ovalbumin levels ranging from 0.02 mcg to 0.04 mcg per 0.5 mL dose.
Best regards
Jeanne Marie Thallmayer BS RN
Medical Information Specialist
Sanofi Pasteur US
1-800-VACCINE”
APV,
I have another comment in moderation, but in reply to your last comment:
You have no idea if it was ovalbumin that was fractionally recrystallized. Maybe it was ovomucoid, the main allergen in eggs, or another protein fraction that is far more allergenic than either.
It was egg protein that was precipitated from egg white using alcohol. Since ovalbumin constitutes about 54% of egg white protein (op. cit. above) you can multiply the safety margin I estimated above by 0.54 if you want, making the amount of ovalbumin in Fluzone 135 times lower than the minimum required to induce sensitization. That’s still an adequate safety margin, in my view, and most influenza vaccines contain a fraction of that amount of egg protein.
Of course it would be nice to have a way of making influenza and other vaccines that don’t contain any allergens, and we are on the way to that already. For example, Gardasil is made using genetically engineered baker’s yeast, with no pathogens or other organisms that could harbor pathogens involved*. It is likely that anyone who has an allergy to yeast will already know about it, though no doubt you will insist that Gardasil is producing an epidemic of yeast allergies. Perhaps Cervarix, made similarly but using a type of moth instead of yeast, is more acceptable to you.
* Those concerned about vaccine safety have been universally delighted with this development, of course. /sarcasm
Narad,
<a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2927356/"This study looked at the amount of ovalbumin in various influenza vaccines, all less than 1.2 µg/ml, most very much less..
Let’s try that again with the missing tag closure:
Narad,
This study looked at the amount of ovalbumin in various influenza vaccines, all less than 1.2 µg/ml, most very much less..
The “ultimate solution” paper (PDF) sez
“Six manufacturers produced DTaP, which differed with regard to gelatin content. DTaP of Manufacturer B and Manufacturer D never contained gelatin. DTaP of Manufacturer A, C and F contained carry-over gelatin at less than 0.0067 w/v %, and DTaP of Manufacturer E contained 0.2% gelatin added as a stabilizer.”
Krebiozen, #528,
48-200 mcg/ml gelatin in DTaP per:
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749%2899%2970508-7/fulltext
“Why would you assume that the 36 subjects whose IgE showed a modest increase after vaccination were made allergic to eggs by the vaccine?”
The point is the vaccine caused the increase. The patients are progressing towards getting egg allergy due to the vaccine.
“If influenza vaccines really did cause egg allergy, wouldn’t we see an increase in fatal anaphylaxis after eating eggs or egg-containing foods?”
As we have discussed before, egg allergy prevalence is 1-2% of the population. These people are carefully avoiding eggs or of course you will see more anaphylaxis.
“There is a lot of aluminum in foods, far more than in and vaccine); couldn’t this act as an adjuvant, making exposure to egg in food is a hugely more likely cause of egg allergy?”
Unless you have some health condition, egg proteins should be denatured by stomach acid. This is the natural defense that vaccines defeat.
Krebiozen, #533,
“You have no idea if it was ovalbumin that was fractionally recrystallized. ”
Wells wrote it was egg albumin.
“you can multiply the safety margin I estimated above by 0.54 if you want,”
No, Wells hypothesizes that the 100X difference may be because of “inhibiting substances” in the untreated egg-white.
Unless, you want to claim that our vaccines contain the same “inhibiting substances” Wells had in his untreated egg-white, we only have the ovalbumin numbers to go by.
With 50 ng ovalbumin causing sensitization in 300g guinea pig, there is zero safety margin with current ovalbumin levels in human vaccines.
Further,
Current issues with influenza vaccination in egg allergy
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749%2802%2901463-X/fulltext
states:
“Egg protein content in influenza vaccine was first estimated by means of PAGE at 20 to 45 μg/mL” in 1976.
And some manufacturers had up 42 μg/ml as recently as 2001.
This reference shows up to 10 ug/ml was the limit specified by Sanofi as late as 2009.
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749%2809%2901807-7/fulltext
Moth and yeast vaccines don’t solve any problem. The fundamental problem is that the human body has evolved to only deal with pollen, viral and bacterial proteins being regularly injected into the body. It has evolved to handle the natural sensitization and elicitation doses of these proteins.
Food proteins involve huge elicitation doses. There were no mass natural food protein sensitization mechanisms until the arrival of the injection needle. So no chance for evolution to handle it.
So the solution is to either eliminate the proteins from vaccines or find a safe dose and enforce it.
APV are your done bullsh!tting your way through supposed anaphylactic reactions to egg components in vaccines?
“Further,
Current issues with influenza vaccination in egg allergy
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749%2802%2901463-X/fulltext ”
That 12 year old article is not current. It quotes the 2001 AAP Red Book and other older research. You do realize, don’t you that this is 2014?
That article cites a reported death of a child from egg allergy after an influenza vaccine was administered and the article that reported that death was published 37 years ago in 1977:
“Despite this observation, an anaphylactic death after influenza vaccination has been reported in a child known to be allergic to egg.4 A few earlier studies on a small number of patients with egg allergy provide some evidence that individuals with egg allergy can be immunized with influenza vaccine when certain precautionary steps are taken.6, 33”
Are you currently administering seasonal influenza vaccines to children and adults…or have you ever administered any seasonal influenza vaccines to children and adults?
If you are currently administering those vaccines, I suggest you catch up with the newest research about egg allergies and the safe administration of influenza vaccines which contain egg components:
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/vaccination/vaccine_safety.htm
Krebiozen, #518
” it is normal to produce some IgE.”
I don’t think it is normal to produce IgE to any food protein.
The risk in c-section births is the sub-optimal gut microbiome. This is an uncontrolled variable. It can vary by geography, hospital or even areas of the hospital where the newborn was exposed. There may be 5X priming for IgE in some instances, maybe more or less in others.
” not that influenza vaccine produces allergy to influenza viruses.” Why? If you produce anti-influenza IgE, they can be coated on mast cells and basophils just like say an anti-ovalbumin IgE and produce the same response on exposure to the virus. Can they not?
“In the case of an allergy the immune system mistakes a food protein for a pathogen, parasitic or perhaps viral.”
Exactly. Pathogens, parasite or viruses are commonly introduced by insect bites (injection). When you inject a food protein, the immune system mistakes it for a pathogen, parasite or virus. So food allergy is exactly what we should expect when we inject food proteins.
You have thus made my point.
“So where is the epidemic of people going into anaphylactic shock after their annual influenza vaccine?”
As I have said a number of times, the influenza vaccine ovalbumin content is sufficient to cause sensitization but *usually* not enough to cause elicitation. People with severe egg allergies do of course react to the influenza vaccine.
“That doesn’t look like an allergic reaction to me, and the studies I looked at suggested it was a reaction to residual active pertussis toxoid in the vaccine, not IgE-mediated at all.”
Why would it show up only in the last two shots of the series?
I cannot access the #481 paper to comment on it.
lilady #539,
You did not understand my point. Influenza vaccines today have up to 1 mcg of ovalbumin. I was pointing out that in 2009 it could have been as high as 10 mcg and much higher before that.
So children who have egg allergy today but were diagnosed years ago, got a lot more ovalbumin injected with their vaccines. That was my point.
APV:
That is totally illogical. If stomach acid denatured egg proteins, there would be no such thing as an egg allergy no matter what.
Once again, you are begging the question. You are assuming that vaccination leads to sensitisation and from there to allergies .Nothing you have said rises to the standard of proof.
APV: I know exactly what your point is. You’ve got an agenda to promote all your little theories about what you claim to be the deleterious effects of vaccine components/excipients. You hope to accomplish your “point” by linking to older articles you located by doing a PubMed search to back up your theories about older vaccines had more of these excipients and they actually caused allergic reactions.
As you hop about posting your silly theories and those theories get shot down, you introduce another of your dumb theories about allergies and immune reactions to vaccines.
Here’s your agenda:
http://forums.webmd.com/3/allergies-exchange/forum/2532
Why don’t you get your own blog, so that you can promote your nonsensical theories?
What is the body’s immune reaction to any influenza vaccine-versus-the body’s reaction to acquiring influenza?
How many influenza vaccines have you ever administered and how many allergic responses or anaphylactic reactions have you ever seen and treated?
You forgot the PPIs.
This is actually (and predictably) more complicated, but I presume APV thinks “denature” is just another magic word. I alluded to this in #525 (think about when geometry might not matter), but I’m not the least bit inclined to deplonk it.
APV,
Thanks, to Narad too.
So now they are progressing towards getting egg allergy, not getting egg allergy as you claimed previously. Do you have any evidence that this modest increase in IgE in response to egg proteins will progress to clinical egg allergy?
So as the prevalence of egg allergy increases, the care that allergic people take to avoid eggs also increases so the number of fatal anaphylaxis remains constant? Really?
Clearly some allergenic protein fractions survive digestion, or no one would ever develop food allergies. Food allergies were known long before vaccines were developed.
“Albumin” literally means egg white. Hofmeister had demonstrated the existence of different proteins in egg white using sulfate precipitation a few years before Wells’ work, but Wells didn’t know what specific proteins he was fractionally crystallizing using alcohol, and neither do you. As I wrote before, maybe it was another protein (there are at least 14 different proteins in egg white PDF), or maybe the process altered the protein structure making it more allergenic. We simply don’t know.
How does a speculation from over a century ago become fact? What “inhibiting substances” are present in egg white? Even if they did exist, how are they removed from vaccines? Are the egg proteins in vaccines put through fractional crystallization in alcohol?
I think Wells was wrong – as far as I know there are no inhibiting substances present in egg white. So we don’t only have the ovalbumin numbers to go by, we have the egg white protein numbers, and we know that about 54% of that protein was ovalbumin. This is more likely to give us an accurate number than assuming that an unknown protein fraction is ovalbumin.
Nonsense. Wells’ work shows that 0.0000063 grams, or 6.3 micrograms, of egg white protein was sufficient to sensitize 300 gram guinea pigs. Since 54% of this protein was ovalbumin, we can estimate that 3.4 micrograms of ovalbumin will sensitize a guinea pig of this weight, though this is probably an underestimate given the greater allergenicity of ovomucoid. Extrapolating, it would require 76 micrograms of ovalbumin to sensitize an underweight (25th percentile) 6-month-old baby weighing 6.7 kg, assuming humans react like guinea pigs do.
That’s up to 12 µg ovalbumin per 0.5 ml dose, still less than the 76 µg that would be required to sensitize an underweight baby, by my calculations.
That seems to be a safe limit to me.
They solve a number of problems.
How is it that Richard III was allergic to strawberries? Eating food is a natural food protein sensitization mechanism. It clearly isn’t exposure to food proteins that is the problem, it’s the development of a glitch in the immune system plus exposure to proteins.
In the absence of any good reason to think the vaccines currently on the schedule are causing food allergies, I think there are far more important problems to address.
^”number of cases of fatal anaphylaxis” or perhaps “number of fatal anaphylaxes”?
Let’s run some numbers. The highest amount of ovalbumin the Sanofi flu vaccines contain is 0.1 mcg. Flulaval is at most 0.3 mcg. Afluria contains, at most, 1 mcg.
Using APV’s own source with the 50 ng of ovalbumin being required for sensitization in a 300 g guinea pig, let’s see how much ovalbumin would be required to cause sensitization in a 6-month-old human. As Krebiozen pointed out in post 519, the lowest average weight for a 6-mo-old baby is 6.7 kg. Assuming that guinea pig sensitization and human sensitization are equivalent, we would need about 1,116 ng, or 1.116 mcg of ovalbumin in the vaccine to cause sensitization. None of the vaccines reach this level, and most are well below that threshold, some as much as 55 times less ovalbumin than is required for sensitization.
APV @ 511
Your link is to an abstract from a poster sesion, not to a peer-reviewed journal, and presents no evidence that the detectable dust allergen in teh caesarean-delivered babies was consequence of suboptimal gut microbiomes.
Once again: it simply doesn’t support the claims you are making.
sigh–should read “…not to a peer-reviewed journal article“
APV:
I don’t suppose you’d consider actually tempting to support that claim, which as is characteristic for you, you present in the form of an established fact? We do not know that the biome is *worse* in c-section babies. We only know it’s *different*. We also know it’s different between any two given children, as long as they’re not in the same household, and that the entire biome reshapes itself multiple times in the first year of life regardless of mode of delivery or type of feeding, so I think you’ve got a long ways to go to demonstrate it’s definitely worse.
And that’s without even addressing this “at risk bacteria” category that you’ve proposed here. So certain bacteria put people at risk of . . . something that alters the immune “balance”? I’m not even sure that sentence is even specific enough to make a claim, actually. It’s like something a shady supplement manufacturer would put on a label to avoid being pinned down to a specific claim in court. I suppose I could go read the article you linked, but I have to wonder why you don’t bother explaining it in your own words. Maybe because you can’t.
Developing nations have far less accurate surveillance, so I’m not confident enough in the numbers to make that claim. (Not that data confidence ever troubled you.) If the hygiene hypothesis has merit (and the c-section thing is part of the hygiene hypothesis), then their higher rate of exposure to infectious organisms could account for it. But you won’t like that since it doesn’t support your preconception; you have to find some other way of contorting it to your perspective. 😉
Another possibility that’s been suggested is that there’s a window of exposure very early in life, while the immune system is developing, and that the advice to religiously avoid common allergens until at least six months could’ve inadvertently aggravated the very problem it was aiming to help — lack of early exposure may make the immune system more inclined to distrust the allergens, so to speak. In America today, parents seldom offer solid food at all until six months. Twenty years ago, it was much earlier, and my grandparents gave my parents solids within the first week of life. (Or tried to, anyway; kids that age really don’t know how to eat solids.) And gave formula that was packed full of stuff that would horrify a pediatrician today, like raw eggs.
I am not convinced we have enough information to really judge these theories yet. But they would fit the pattern without having to invoke vaccines or PPIs, so I think it’s pretty unreasonable to conclude that absolutely it must be those things.
This is not so clear.
I think we can agree that Henry I suffered from an allergy to lampreys.
^ Turning to More (PDF, modernized), “And also no man was there present but well knew that the Protector’s arm was ever such since his birth.”
^^ And the remains showed no evidence of anything wrong with the arm. Inferring an allergy based on the extant sources seems pretty tenuous.
Calli Arcale: Odd that you should mention the differences in the human biome found in infants born vaginally and infants born through C-Section.
(Thanks to Jennifer Raff at the Violent Metaphors blog for the link to this study):
http://biomarkersandmilk.blogspot.com/2014/12/human-milk-has-microbiome-and-bacteria.html?m=1
See my coming paper on “C-section micro-biome differences and superior swordfighting skills: The Macduff case-study”.
Julian Frost #542
” If stomach acid denatured egg proteins, there would be no such thing as an egg allergy no matter what.”
Exactly, there was no egg allergy until we started injecting people with egg proteins.
1. Citation needed. What evidence do you have that there were no egg allergies before injections.
2. You’ve missed his point completely. If egg proteins are denatured in the stomach, then how could someone allergic to eggs ever have a reaction from eating eggs?
@herr doktor bimler,
If you can throw in Inigo Montoya, you’ve got a winner.
Mephistopheles O’Brien #558,
1. You don’t keep records when there is no egg allergy. We keep records now because it is an epidemic.
“2. You’ve missed his point completely. If egg proteins are denatured in the stomach, then how could someone allergic to eggs ever have a reaction from eating eggs?”
Egg proteins contacting your mouth is sufficient to cause an allergic reaction. There are mast cells and basophils in the mouth coated with anti-ovalbumin IgE. They can detect egg protein and degranulate causing the allergic reaction.
You don’t even have to swallow it.
Krebiozen #545,
Key points from Wells’ study:
1. Injecting proteins has serious immune system consequences. If it needs to be performed at all, it must be done with extreme caution regarding dosage. Where are the studies showing what kind of egg proteins in what quantity can be safely present in human vaccines? So we are all guinea pigs in this vast experiment that has not concluded a century later?
2. Sensitization doses can be orders of magnitude smaller than elicitation doses. Anaphylaxis to vaccines is considered ok today because it is a “one a million dose” problem. Wrong. It is the tip of the iceberg. If a vaccine can cause anaphylaxis (looks like every vaccine can), there is enough protein in it to cause a huge number of people to be sensitized.
“So as the prevalence of egg allergy increases, the care that allergic people take to avoid eggs also increases so the number of fatal anaphylaxis remains constant? Really?”
No, when people develop mild symptoms, they stop consuming eggs.
If vaccines further increase the severity of the allergy, you won’t see a change in anaphylaxis rates because they are already avoiding eggs.
“Clearly some allergenic protein fractions survive digestion, or no one would ever develop food allergies. Food allergies were known long before vaccines were developed.”
Doctors have been recommending avoidance/introduction of allergen foods at various times and changed their minds often with no effect on allergy prevalence. Why?
If the oral route were a more efficient means of sensitization, why do scientists use injections to induce food allergy in lab animals?
“Even if they did exist, how are they removed from vaccines? Are the egg proteins in vaccines put through fractional crystallization in alcohol?”
Great questions … for the FDA. You would think there would be a specification that says exactly what type of proteins and how much of each can exist in an approved vaccine?
Today, it seems perfectly acceptable for FDA approval, to have as much thrice recrystallized ovalbumin as you can manage in a 0.5 ml dose of vaccine.
“Moth and yeast vaccines don’t solve any problem.
They solve a number of problems.”
Replacing 1 mcg of ovalbumin with 28 mcg of moth+baculovirus protein is progress?
That is more allergen than viral protein (15 mcg) in a normal vaccine. May be because it looked too bad, they bumped the viral protein up 3X?
“How is it that Richard III was allergic to strawberries? ”
Rare cases are not difficult to explain. May be too little stomach acid due to a genetic defect.
May be an insect bite from one that had fed on strawberries. Tick bites can give you red meat allergy …
Todd W. #547,
It is not a digital dose. If 1.1 mcg is needed to cause moderate symptoms (per Wells) does not mean 1 mcg will cause no symptoms. As the Japanese paper on egg allergy shows, it builds up. May be the next year’s shot will increase your mild allergy from the first shot and make it severe. In other words, they become booster shots for egg allergy.
Then you also have to agree that since flu vaccines before 2009 had as much as 10 mcg of ovalbumin, they made huge contributions to the egg allergy epidemic.
http://hopkinschildrens.org/news-room/milk-and-egg-allergies-harder-to-outgrow.aspx
Makes perfect sense. If you keep giving them egg allergy booster shots (flu vaccines) and DTap/TDaP milk allergy booster shots, how will they outgrow the allergy?
Calli Arcale #550,
“at risk bacteria”
I was just quoting Dr. Johnson …
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/256915.php
” If the hygiene hypothesis has merit (and the c-section thing is part of the hygiene hypothesis), then their higher rate of exposure to infectious organisms could account for it. But you won’t like that since it doesn’t support your preconception; you have to find some other way of contorting it to your perspective. ”
The hygiene hypothesis is in line with the notion of vaccines causing food allergies. Hygiene primes for IgE. That makes children develop allergies to even extremely small amounts of allergens in vaccines.
lilady #543,
Choosing a 2014-2015 flu vaccine
http://forums.webmd.com/3/allergies-exchange/forum/2532
That’s the result of the research I performed to select a flu vaccine for my family. We have food allergies and asthma and have to choose our vaccines carefully.
If you are perfectly healthy, you can take any vaccine you want … until they give you food allergy and asthma …
APV, the only evidence you need to provide on this thread is if allergic reactions to influenza vaccines kill at least a hundred kids per year in the USA.
So far this season seven kids have died from flu, and more than a hundred died the previous two seasons. So what evidence do you have that the influenza vaccines presently approved for children in the USA cause so many fatalities?
@APV
Err, no.
The hygiene hypothesis is about today’s people more likely to develop allergies because of a lack of stimulation of the immune system and/or a lack of interactions with symbiotic organisms, period.
You may argue that vaccines participate in this by replacing the strong stimulation the immune system get by fighting wild pathogens during a full-blown disease, by the comparatively milder stimulation of processing dead/attenuated pathogens.
But, by this logic, not vaccinating would be even worse, because you wouldn’t even get the mild stimulation provided by vaccination. If anything, vaccines expose us to antigens we are not too likely* to encounter in our environment, and thus increase the variety of molecules our immune system has to process.
Your (current**) claim is that vaccines participate notably in the creation of food allergies. Not just triggering a reaction – which we know they sometimes did in the past – but priming the allergy itself. You still have to provide evidence for this, hygiene hypothesis or not.
Even more, you have to provide evidence for currently injected vaccines. Vaccine formulations used 20 years ago but which are no longer existing aren’t much of an issue nowaday***, aren’t they?
If your claim was that vaccines containing proteins from egg, milk or another know allergen should have a bigger warning, maybe directly on the package, I would have agreed.
(although Krebiozen and other commenters provided studies showing that vaccines don’t trigger allergies reactions that often, so I am now less concerned)
But your claims are of a higher order of magnitude.
* well, the “not too likely” is changing, measles and whooping cough are coming back.
** your initial claims were about polysorbate containing peanut oil or vaccines causing autoimmune diseases, notably anti-muscles proteins auto-immunization. The topic drifted somewhat…
*** except for people who did get an adverse reaction 20 years ago from these formulations. I don’t begrudge their right for compensations.
One might be inclined to cut to the chase and ask whether APV has something up its sleeve resembling (based upon its own “conclusions”) an argument against the elimination of “food” entirely, on the basis of parsimony.
Another good tale ruined by annoying facts. Thanks Narad (not sarcastic, I enjoy being disillusioned).
APV:
and…
From the Wikipedia entry on Alfred Bird:
Alfred Bird lived from 1811-1878. So much for your claim that egg allergies didn’t exist before mass vaccination. And that we only keep records now.
Have been loving reading this. It makes me wish I better knew and understood the immune system and how it functions, though.
I see the “immunizations cause allergies/autoimmune disorders” assertion frequently, and don’t have a strong enough knowledge to debunk it. I point out that my parents dealt with various autoimmune issues themselves, and suggest that my issues are probably hereditary in nature.
Usually that keeps Mr Woo quiet, unless he sees another YouTube video with someone announcing vaccination causes autoimmune disorders. Then he starts asking if I am sure I had issues pre-Navy, when they give you all those shots at one time.
Bird was late to the table: Greek writers (including Hippocrates) c. 400 BCE note individuals who experienced aggressive reactons to common foodstuffs including cheese, eggs, honey, shellfish, and nuts, leading to Lucretius in 50 BCE observing ‘What is food to one person, may be bitter poison to others’.
Julian Frost, #569,
Like Richard III. Rare allergies can be explained by reduced stomach acid due to a genetic defect.
I believe I heard a Scotsman. Though not a true one.
Reduced stomach acid would have other consequences, like difficulties with digestion. Was it documented in the case of Richard III and all these other people?
@APV
The guinea pig data you presented was for sensitization, not allergic response elicitation. Your numbers show that there is not enough ovalbumin in the flu shot to cause sensitization. Furthermore, you said that sensitization occurs at much smaller doses than elicitation, so why are you talking about a mild allergy (elicitation) from the first shot, when the person hasn’t even been sensitized yet?
Finally, if there is no sensitization, there is no “build-up” with subsequent doses. The ovalbumin doesn’t sit around in your body to be added to subsequent doses until there’s enough cumulative protein to reach the threshold for sensitization.
APV, where is the verifiable documentation that any influenza vaccine approved for use in children causes as much harm as the disease? Influenza has been known to kill about a hundred kids per year in the USA, show us the vaccine causes that much damage.
Explain how these stories could have been avoided:
Vaccine Preventable Disease – The Forgotten Story
APV: You never really replied to my questions posed at # 543 above:
What is the body’s immune reaction to any influenza vaccine-versus-the body’s reaction to acquiring influenza?
How many influenza vaccines have you ever administered and how many allergic responses or anaphylactic reactions have you ever seen and treated?
I’ve known many people with shellfish allergies. To the best of my knowledge, none of them were ever injected with shrimp proteins. If they suffered from weak stomach acids, you’d think that they would be allergic to a variety of foods since shellfish proteins would be mixed with, say, eggs (if one’s first exposure was to shrimp fried rice) or various vegetables (if one’s first exposure was as part of a balanced meal).
There are also non-food allergies which require no priming via injection.
And, of course, people skin their knees all the time, which provides blood exposure to grass and soil components in reasonably large quantities without developing allergies to same. This is not to suggest, naturally, that nobody who skins his/her/its knee on the grass develops an allergy to grass, just that I have not heard of a causal linkage between the two. If anyone has such a linkage, please share.
The claim that weak stomach acid or injection is a necessary and sufficient precursor to developing allergies seems very weakly supported.
Just to pile on:
APV, I give you a case study. A baby with a rash. He drinks only mother’s milk. And yet! He is allergic to eggs. How did this happen? Babies don’t get flu shots under 6 months, and he had never eaten an egg. But the egg proteins his mother ate were passed along in the breast milk and caused his reaction, which both came on and dissapated slowly.
So 1) This disproves your “egg proteins are denatured in the stomach” and 2) egg allergies are caused by flu shots.
People develop food allergies because the human immune system surveys the gut.
I am intrigued by pistachio / pecan / mango allergies and wondering how the intravenous exposure to mangos came about.
herr doktor bimler
For that information you’ll need to read the salacious best seller 50 Shades of Mango.
@JustaTech
I’m sure APV will simply hand-wave away your contrary evidence by claiming that the infant had abnormal stomach acid.
the salacious best seller 50 Shades of Mango
I was actually thinking of the Blackadder script in which Blackadder reminds General Haig of the time — in an earlier colonial war — when Haig needed rescuing from a pigmy armed with a viciously-sharp slice of mango.
Todd W. #574,
1.1 mcg ovalbumin injection – 1.1 units IgE – clinical allergy – elicits allergic reaction.
1.0 mcg ovalbumin injection – 1.0 unit IgE – sub-clinical allergy – no elicitation.
Next years’ vaccine:
1.0 mcg ovalbumin injection – (1+1=2.0) units IgE – clinical allergy – elicits allergic reaction.
The Japanese egg allergy paper demonstrates this progression towards allergy.
Helianthus, #566,
Notion 1:
Reduction of disease exposure due to hygienic conditions primes for allergy (IgE synthesis). Vaccines reduce disease. Implication: stop vaccinating to the fix problem by increasing disease exposure.
I DO NOT AGREE with this. Further, this does not explain exactly how allergic sensitization to food proteins occur.
Notion 2:
Reduction of disease exposure due to hygienic conditions primes for allergy. Kids thus primed, easily develop allergy to food proteins present in vaccines. Solution: Remove food proteins from vaccines.
Consider 100 kids in the developed world and 100 kids in the developing world receiving a flu vaccine.
1% of developing world kids may be sensitized to egg because they are not primed to synthesize IgE.
5% of developed world kids may be sensitized to egg because they are primed to synthesize IgE.
“You still have to provide evidence for this, hygiene hypothesis or not.”
As I wrote before, if people study the problem controlling for one variable, as the Japanese did, the evidence is clear.
Gelatin study demonstrated clearly that gelatin allergy occurs due to gelatin in vaccines. This should have immediately triggered an evaluation of ALL food proteins in vaccines. We would have had the evidence to settle this one way or another.
If there is no specification/testing for allergens in vaccines, how does one guarantee that “poorly hydrolyzed gelatin”, poorly processed Polysorbate, poorly filtered ovalbumin or contamination of milk proteins, is not happening in our vaccines?
JustaTech #578,
If the intact egg protein was absorbed by Mom, she would have developed egg allergy first.
If Mom, had a stomach acid problem that caused such absorption, then the child can of course be sensitized by the breast milk and elicit to breast milk.
JustaTech #578,
And for the first few days, newborns absorb intact proteins.
Mephistopheles O’Brien #577,
Vaccines contain agar that is seaweed derived. Some seafood allergies can be linked to that. As I wrote before, intramuscular injection can cause tropomyosin allergy. Shrimp allergy is linked to tropomyosin IgE.
In any case, I am saying vaccines are A cause of food allergies, not THE cause of food allergies.
Skinning knees, micro lesions in the mouth are all allergen exposure paths. Important consideration is that those have occurred for millions of years and the body has evolved defenses. There is no evolved defense for food allergens injected with a needle because that does not usually occur in nature.
lilady 576#,
My understanding is that in both cases, IgE and IgG will be synthesized.
I don’t administer vaccines. I am an engineer, not a doctor.
Something something Ara h 2 something.
But, really, it’s the peanut oil in vaccines. Or the peanut in polysorbate 80. Or something.
There is no evolved defense for food allergens injected with a needle because there are no food allergens injected with a needle.
I wonder what APV thinks caused my hay fever, which didn’t develop until I was twenty-one (but inconveniently for his/her theories, at least a year before I enlisted and got all those damned shots. Perhaps my immune system was prescient?).
Gunning for 600, are we?
And spinach contains grounded field rat proteins. That’s why Popeye the Sailor was allergic to rodents.
No, seriously, you are reaching, APV.
@ Shay
shhhh. APV will have to add intranasal injections as a source of vaccine-induced allergies (hay fever was missing from his list #513).
Quoth APV:
lilady 576#,
“My understanding is that in both cases, IgE and IgG will be synthesized.”
I didn’t post any comments or questions about IgE and IgG. I asked you about the immune reaction from receiving an influenza vaccine-versus-the immune reaction from actually contracting influenza and…how many vaccines have you administered and how many reactions or anaphylactic episodes from any vaccines, have you observed
“I don’t administer vaccines. I am an engineer, not a doctor.”
Why don’t you go back to school? See if you can gain admission to a medical school, complete a three year residency and a post doctoral fellowship in allergy and immunology. Then gather up all your “theories”, design a randomized, double blind study with a placebo arm and submit your proposed study to an IRB. If you get IRB approval you can then recruit your study subjects who have food allergies to eggs or yeast or those other ingredients in vaccines which you find so objectionable.
Once you complete your study, submit your research paper to a first-tier, peer reviewed medical journal to see if the reviewers find validity in your study’s findings and are willing to publish it. Let us know the name of the journal and the specific issue, so we can all learn from research.
Alternatively, you could review the ACIP General Recommendations regarding food allergies and the only absolute medical contraindications to receiving seasonal influenza vaccine…or any other vaccine which is licensed by the FDA:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr6002a1.htm
Vaccines contain agar that is seaweed derived. Some seafood allergies can be linked to that
At this point in the string of assertions I found myself agreeing with Dorothy Parker, that “I am Marie of Roumania”.
I must say, I’m impressed by the speed and fluidity with which APV shifts goalposts.
#557
But after I refuted you at #569 and JGC did the same at #571
#572:
APV,
You’re persist, 10 out of 10 for that. For comprehension of immunology, not so much.
Do you have evidence of this progression towards allergy? IgE can go down as well as up. You seem to be assuming that it remains high for a year after exposure.
Yet none of the subjects with elevated egg Ige before vaccination had clinical egg allergy – this was screened for during selection. As I have repeatedly told you, elevated IgE does not necessarily mean allergy. You need to see sIgE of 12.6 kIU/L to have a 95% probability of egg allergy(see paper cited above #518) and all the subjects had sIgE less than 2.0 after vaccination.
Even during that incident, where poor manufacturing technique combined with genetic susceptibility, the prevalence of gelatine allergy was low (though higher than desirable, of course):
I am confident that the FDA (and other relevant authorities elsewhere) would not approve a vaccine that did not use hypoallergenic gelatin, since they are aware of the problem.
I think this would be picked up in the vaccine approval process, during which the manufacturer has to provide the FDA with vast amounts of information, and every aspect of the vaccine is closely examined.
So all mothers of babies that develop egg allergy must be allergic to egg themselves? That’s just not true. As I have pointed out repeatedly, intact proteins are not normally absorbed by adults, and even if they are, they would not automatically cause allergy.
Linked by whom? Anyone but you? Because they both have the word “sea” in their names? I would love to see evidence to support that.
Injuries that result in contamination of the wound do not usually occur in nature? You see to have a very odd view of what life was like during most of human evolution. How does the immune system know that an allergen it encounters in the blood came through a needle and not through an injury or through micro lesions in the mouth?
Sheehs, ^ “persistent”, not “persist”.
I can’t even spell “sheesh” – not feeling my best at present.
Once again: eggs, peanut butter, milk products and other high-protein foods are widely recommended for people who have had full or partial gastrectomy. The recommendations come without dire warnings of fatal (or any) allergies developing.
Collagen powder is used in wounds.
Gelatin (hydrolyzed collagen) has long been used to make a blood plasma substitute. C. Everett himself was fourth author on a 1944 paper documenting work with Knox gelatin as a plasma sub. A 500 mL bag of a modern product such as Gelofusine from B. Braun contains 20 grams of succinylated gelatin. Up to 4 bags are used at a time. There is no warning in the Braun literature about keeling over as a result of subsequently eating Jello or other dead cow parts.
APV, where is the verifiable documentation that any influenza vaccine approved for use on children in the USA causes as much harm as the actual disease?
Have seven children suffered from anaphylactic shock in the USA this season from the influenza vaccine? Come on, show us that data.
Obviously because in 1944 the people getting Gelofusine weren’t on PPI’s–thay hadn’t been invented yet.
Or they didn’t also suffer from reduced stomach acids which would result in their developing the allergy.
Or their mothers hadn’t been exposed to Gelafusine
Or the auguries weren’t right, or the gods hadn’t yet withdrawn their favor,or they were uniquely blessed among men, or….LOOK! A DISTRACTION!
What was I saying? Oh, yes.
It’s the vaccines. It’s alwasys the vaccines.
(Toggle sarcasm off)
What about thorns? Mosquitoes? Ticks?
Well, actually ticks have been known to cause allergies to red meat. See http://www.webmd.com/allergies/news/20140813/tick-bites-red-meat-allergy. It is certainly true that injection with various allergens can cause an allergy. What seems unlikely (based on the excellent summations by Krebiozen, Helianthus, and others is that current vaccines or weak stomach acids are a major cause of food allergies.
@APV
It turns out that my family has been self-medicating for years then, but we’d probably all be willing to increase our chocolate intake for science!
A few questions:
How does the impressive success rate of allergy shots in treating certain allergies work?
Why don’t splinters make people deathly allergic to wood? Be specific.
@APV
In order for an allergy to develop, a person must first be sensitized to the allergen. Again, using your numbers, the amount of ovalbumin in the flu vaccine is insufficient to cause sensitization, particularly when it is only one formulation that comes even close to the amount you cited as necessary for sensitization to occur. And that is only in very low-weight 6 month olds.
Now you are trying to claim that IgE to ovalbumin persists for a year. Actually, that’s not even what you are claiming. You are claiming that the ovalbumin itself persists in the body for a year. To be kind, citation needed. This citation should show the ovalbumin-specific IgE levels before vaccination, immediately after vaccination, and one year later. It should also control for other sources of ovalbumin exposure pre-vaccination and during the remainder of the study period. That would get at what you are trying to argue, but what you actually argued would require measurement of the ovalbumin in the body itself, not just the IgE.
Produce your citation that supports this claim.
Here’s the money quote from APV, which details his interest in vaccines:
“That’s the result of the research I performed to select a flu vaccine for my family. We have food allergies and asthma and have to choose our vaccines carefully.
If you are perfectly healthy, you can take any vaccine you want … until they give you food allergy and asthma …”
APV and his/her family have allergies and asthma.
APV has not offered any proof that those allergies and asthma were caused by vaccines.
Those individuals who actually have asthma (diagnosed by a doctor) are considered to be at higher risk for contracting influenza.
APV and his family members have no histories of anaphylactic reactions to prior doses of influenza vaccine, which is the only absolute contraindication to receiving the influenza vaccine shots.
Case closed.
606!
Can we take it up to 666?
Christmas bonuses for all the shills!
I’m rather surprised that the annals of medicine aren’t overflowing with descriptions of leech sensitization, given the inexorability of APV’s logic.
I get it — maybe the leeches actually worked, but the anaphylaxis counteracted the benefits. I bet you can’t find a hypoallergenic leeches vs. no leeches study out there. Bring back the four humors!
The whole family has asthma? My father was allergy tested while I was in school and found reactive to more than thirty things, including corn, various kinds of animal dander, etc. Not too surprisingly, I suffer with allergies and end up with bronchitis from them four times a year. My son was diagnosed as having allergies before he was even two, and started Zyrtec as soon as he was old enough.
My immediate thought when I look at this is,”Gee, my family has a genetic predisposition to allergy, and we all got them,” not, “Gee, we all got vaccines so our immune systems developed allergies.”
Sometimes, especially with very intelligent, rational people (and engineers are always intelligent), we want a why to everything. We know that things don’t just happen in a vacuum. Sadly, it can make us more likely to confuse correlation with causation. When it is something as complex as human systems (many of which we do not completely understand, or that take years of study to specialize in because of their complexity), short of going back to college to study them it is expensive and sometimes difficult to get an adequate education through internet and a book or two. We either trust that the average person specializing in this field is basically honest with no intent to do harm, or we have to imagine a very large, sinister conspiracy to injure many people. As tempting as the second one can be, it is really hard to imagine that many people keeping quiet about the fact they know harm is being done rather than good.
Questions are regularly brought up and researched about vaccine safety. They even modify and change vaccine formulations when they find ways to improve their safety or effectiveness.
I suspect along with the hygiene hypothesis another reason we see more people with more immune issues is because medical treatment allows an increasing number of the less healthy to live past age five. Various health problems which would have made the course of infectious disease more serious are not being exacerbated by a real attack of measles or meningitis.
shay #590,
Hay fever, likely cause: insect bites.
<Soapernatural>Cómo no.<Soapernatural>
Despite having wasted my time in the empty pursuit of a plausible chain to a vector, I’m still pretty sure the answer is “arthropods.”
Krebiozen #596,
Your reference:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16677235
says:
“The synthesis of allergen-specific IgE is required for the development of allergic diseases”.
Why set the ball rolling with vaccines?
“IgE can go down as well as up.”
The Japanese study says:
“In total, 36 of the 100 vacinees showed significant rises in IgE …”
“I am confident that the FDA (and other relevant authorities elsewhere) would not approve a vaccine that did not use hypoallergenic gelatin, since they are aware of the problem.”
Then why did this happen?
Allergic to gummy bears? Be cautious getting the flu shot
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131108090127.htm
“I think this would be picked up in the vaccine approval process, during which the manufacturer has to provide the FDA with vast amounts of information, and every aspect of the vaccine is closely examined.”
The FDA does not have a specification. They are closely examining vast amounts data looking for what?
Vaccine makers inject aluminum hydroxide into the control group. Why?
“Solicited adverse events” do not include food allergies. They watch for 7 days. Food allergies take weeks to develop.
Even if they see food allergy after a few weeks, they conveniently dismiss it as not caused by the vaccine.
“So all mothers of babies that develop egg allergy must be allergic to egg themselves? That’s just not true.”
I was not the one who claimed that mothers are the source of a baby’s allergies …
“As I have pointed out repeatedly, intact proteins are not normally absorbed by adults,”
That is what I have been saying all the time as well. Therefore, it is not possible for allergen proteins to get into breast milk.
“Linked by whom? Anyone but you? Because they both have the word “sea” in their names? I would love to see evidence to support that.”
Several proteins have been shown to cause sensitization when injected. It is logical therefore to examine all proteins in vaccines. They are all suspect until proven safe.
“Injuries that result in contamination of the wound do not usually occur in nature? You see to have a very odd view of what life was like during most of human evolution. How does the immune system know that an allergen it encounters in the blood came through a needle and not through an injury or through micro lesions in the mouth?”
Guinea pigs are injected with mosquito saliva all the time. They don’t develop allergy and anaphylaxis.
But when injected with 50 ng ovalbumin they develop allergy. The reason is, over millions of years of evolution, guinea pigs have evolved to deal with mosquito saliva. If mosquitos injected ovalbumin into mammals over millions of years, we would have evolved to handle ovalbumin injections too.
Perhaps mosquito saliva should be explored as a bacterial growth medium … seems to be to safe to inject into most people …
justthestats #603,
As far as I know, allergy shots are for allergens that we have evolved to handle. Pollen, dander, mold etc. These are allergens that are not known to cause anaphylaxis.
I don’t know if dry wood secretes any protein that could be an allergen …
Mephistopheles O’Brien #602,
“It is certainly true that injection with various allergens can cause an allergy. ”
This is a scientific endeavor. Would you not then expect clear specifications established and enforced to ensure vaccines do not end up causing allergies?
Todd W. #604,
“Now you are trying to claim that IgE to ovalbumin persists for a year.”
IgE can persist for a lifetime in the case of peanut allergy.
Smith-Norowitz TA, Wong D, Kusonruksa M, Norowitz KB, Joks R, Durkin HG, Bluth MH. Long Term Persistence of IgE Anti-Influenza Virus Antibodies in Pediatric and Adult Serum Post Vaccination with Influenza Virus Vaccine. Int J Med Sci 2011; 8(3):239-244.
“You are claiming that the ovalbumin itself persists in the body for a year.”
I never claimed that.
“This citation should show the ovalbumin-specific IgE levels before vaccination, immediately after vaccination, and one year later.”
We should all be demanding this from the FDA to demonstrate that the level of egg proteins in the vaccines are safe. Likewise for all proteins.
Chris #600,
What is the downside of improving a product?
What is the harm in removing food proteins from vaccines?
It will still the save the same number of lives.
APV, leaving aside the fact that your questions –
both assume facts not in evidence,
sometimes an “improvement” isn’t.
At the urging of antivaxxers, the preservative thimerosal was removed from the MMR Vaccine. It later turned out that the fears were groundless. Because thimerosal was removed, the MMR has to be kept cold to ensure it keeps. That’s a giant problem in places without a reliable electricity supply.
Dude, no.
My bad. It was removed from other vaccines but the MMR never contained thimerosal.
APV,
Damn those mosquitoes injecting people with all that grass pollen they eat. You aren’t serious, are you?
Required, but not sufficient. Why assume a ball is rolling?
You miss my point. Your accumulating IgE hypothesis depends on IgE never going down from one year to the next. How do you know the influenza vaccine doesn’t cause a small rise in anti-egg sIgE that then falls back to its pre-vaccine level before the next influenza season?
Again you conflate people having an allergic reaction to gelatin in a vaccine to gelatin allergy being caused by vaccines. Maybe the allergy was caused by eating gummy bears (whatever they are – US equivalent of jelly babies?) in the first place.
The FDA is very well aware of the problems that occurred in Japan. Have you even looked at some of the documents on line that show what is required for a new drug or vaccine to be approved? Remember they stated that, “The FDA reviews vaccine composition in its entirety to ensure the safety and efficacy of the vaccine.” You are claiming that they do not look at the source and quality of gelatin and other potential allergens on the basis of this? They aren’t idiots.
To isolate the effects of the antigens added to the vaccine from the effects of adjuvants and excipients, obviously. The safety of aluminum as an adjuvant has been established, but new antigens have to be checked for safety. Anyway, saline is sometimes used as a placebo in vaccine safety studies.
Perhaps you are unaware of post-marketing surveillance of vaccines by both manufacturers and the CDC.
You wrote, “If the intact egg protein was absorbed by Mom, she would have developed egg allergy first”, as if this was a cast-iron certainty. Nit-picking, it doesn’t require intact protein to produce an allergy, haptens and protein fragments can too.
In an ideal world, perhaps. Sadly, if we had to examine every protein in every vaccine separately and prove that they don’t cause food allergies or some other long-term rare adverse event few if any vaccines would have been approved – it’s hard proving a negative – and the cost would be enormous. We would still see hundreds of people, mostly children, dying of VPD’s every year, just to prevent a hypothetical risk we have no reason to think is real. In the real world we have to balance risks and benefits
By that logic no humans would have allergic reactions to insect bites, having had millions of years to evolve the ability to deal with them. Yet plenty of people are allergic to a range of insect bites, including mosquito bites.
Injecting gelatin, ovalbumin and milk protein in vaccines into the vast majority of people is safe too, and I still haven’t seen anything to suggest food proteins in vaccines are more likely to cause an allergy than eating foods that contain them.
In the absence of exposure to peanuts? Citation required. The paper you cited looked at persistence of anti-influenza IgE which could have been continually stimulated by exposure to influenza virus. Similarly we don’t know if those egg IgE subjects’ anti-egg IgE became transiently elevated after eating egg as well as after the influenza vaccine.
IgE certainly does fall in some cases (PMC3823325) and you can’t assume that it doesn’t just to justify your claim that “1.0 mcg ovalbumin injection – (1+1=2.0) units IgE – clinical allergy – elicits allergic reaction”.
Also of interest in that PMC paper (SPT is skin prick testing):
So those small increases in IgE seen after influenza vaccine are very probably of no clinical significance.
APV,
What do you mean by, “we have evolved to handle”? Are you suggesting there are ‘natural’ and ‘unnatural’ allergies?
Anyway, pollen can certainly cause anaphylaxis, as can dander, and molds (PMID: 11563743).
Holy hell APV, what state are you practicing medicine?
Oh wow. We’ve evolved to handle pollen, dander, and mold. That’s why it makes some people really sick. Makes total sense.
*headdesk*
Are we in Bizarro Land or something?
But I’m sure you’ve formed a strong opinion about the dangers of exposure to dry wood anyway–after all, swimply not knowing something clearly hasn’t stopped you from leaping to conclusions in the past
Sure, assuming that this were an expected risk in a substantial percentage of the population and assuming there were a valid test to enforce the standard. Typically specifications (that are not simply dreamed up out of thin air by some deranged bureaucrat, or created to force the choice of a particular vendor) come from issues seen with either the product or an expected component of the product. I have not looked, but I would not expect there to be a standard for minimum or maximum level of plutonium in a vaccine. Likewise, I would not expect to see a specification for the tensile strength of a vaccine at standard temperature and pressure, as that would be a totally irrelevant (in my opinion) factor in the safety or efficacy of the vaccine.
If there were a perceived need for a standard, I am sure the FDA would love to create one. That’s what they do for a living.
@APV
You still haven’t explained what specific mechanism makes allergy shots work but wouldn’t apply for other injected things.
I wonder what will happen when APV realizes that proteins aren’t the only things that the immune system will react to.
I need a review here.
Assertion 1: some amount of allergen is required to cause sensitization
Assertion 2: a larger amount of allergen is required to cause a reaction once sensitization has occurred
Assertion 3: food eaten in normal fashion by a person without complicating factors can provoke a reaction if that person has been sensitized
Assertion 4: food eaten in normal fashion by a person without complicating factors will not cause sensitization
Confused I am, yes.
A1, A2 and A3 seem at least superficially reasonable. The implication of A3 is that somehow an amount of the agent provocateur greater than the amount required to cause sensitization (see A2) has arrived at the required place. If that is true, A4 must be false.
APV:
Hay fever, likely cause: insect bites.
I will not bother asking you for the source of your information based on the tap-dancing you’ve been doing for the past several hundred posts, but insect bites do not cause allergies. They may cause a reaction, but in that case the allergy already existed.
JGC: “But I’m sure you’ve formed a strong opinion about the dangers of exposure to dry wood anyway–after all, swimply not knowing something clearly hasn’t stopped you from leaping to conclusions in the past”
My father learned the hard way that while mesquite is for grilling meat, it is not good for a fire place. The same chemicals in the smoke that flavor the meat can cause severe eye and respiratory distress.
There is the same caution for burning apricot/almond tree wood. Though what causes the irritation is the cyanide in the wood (also don’t feed pocket pets apricot leaves).
Given that I broke not just the blockquote but also the link, one more time:
Whoops.
Krebiozen #621/622,
“Damn those mosquitoes injecting people with all that grass pollen they eat. You aren’t serious, are you?”
You have a better hypothesis? Smaller pollen grains ( which are more likely to fit within a mosquito’s proboscis) are more commonly responsible for allergies.
“Why assume a ball is rolling?”
You don’t have to assume anything. For 1 in 13 kids ( kids with food allergies) the ball has rolled too far …
Gummy bears:
You said the FDA ensures only hypoallergenic gelatin is used.
Forget vaccines causing sensitization for a moment. Why did the flu vaccine in 2013 cause *elicitation* in children with gelatin allergy?
That proves your claim is not true and the FDA did not do its job. Further, as Wells and others have shown, if you have enough protein for elicitation, there’s more than enough for sensitization.
“The FDA is very well aware of the problems that occurred in Japan. Have you even looked at some of the documents on line that show what is required for a new drug or vaccine to be approved? Remember they stated that, “The FDA reviews vaccine composition in its entirety to ensure the safety and efficacy of the vaccine.” You are claiming that they do not look at the source and quality of gelatin and other potential allergens on the basis of this? They aren’t idiots.”
Whatever you say, they don’t have a specification. They definitely did not look at the source or quality of gelatin at least for the flu vaccine in 2013.
http://www.medpagetoday.com/MeetingCoverage/AAAAIMeeting/25520
“We are looking at more lots to get an idea whether this is an uncommon phenomenon or not,” Sampson said. “We were struck by the fact that just in our practice we had seven patients with milk allergy who had these severe reactions and we believe it is due to contamination of milk protein in this vaccine.”
How did this happen? The FDA may not be idiots, but they are sleeping at the switch …
“To isolate the effects of the antigens added to the vaccine from the effects of adjuvants and excipients, obviously. The safety of aluminum as an adjuvant has been established, but new antigens have to be checked for safety. Anyway, saline is sometimes used as a placebo in vaccine safety studies.”
Nice try. If aluminum safety has been established, only the antigen adverse effects will show up in the study even if the control group had received saline. It looks more like they were trying mask the effect of known problems with aluminum.
JustaTech wrote:
“But the egg proteins his mother ate were passed along in the breast milk and caused his reaction, which both came on and dissapated slowly.”
So I wrote, *if* that claim is true, Mom would have developed an allergy as well. I don’t think this mechanism is possible in healthy mothers.
“We would still see hundreds of people, mostly children, dying of VPD’s every year, just to prevent a hypothetical risk we have no reason to think is real. In the real world we have to balance risks and benefits”
No. What’s stopping the FDA from studying this post-approval to improve safety?
“it’s hard proving a negative”
No, same process as the Japanese egg allergy would be a good start.
RAST pre-vaccination, vaccination, RAST post-vaccination. What is so difficult?
“Perhaps you are unaware of post-marketing surveillance of vaccines by both manufacturers and the CDC.”
How will post marketing surveillance catch vaccines causing food allergy for example? If a patient is diagnosed with food allergy a month after a vaccination, his doctor is not going to report it. Anaphylaxis to a vaccine happens within minutes. Causality is obvious. Not so for food allergy sensitization. Unless there is a special effort made to study it, the information is lost.
“By that logic no humans would have allergic reactions to insect bites, having had millions of years to evolve the ability to deal with them. Yet plenty of people are allergic to a range of insect bites, including mosquito bites.”
“What do you mean by, “we have evolved to handle”? Are you suggesting there are ‘natural’ and ‘unnatural’ allergies?”
When was the last time Epipen was prescribed for pollen allergy? So, yes, there are natural allergies like pollen, mosquito saliva that we can handle without going into anaphylaxis. We still have reactions but they are a nuisance and not a life-threatening problem. Due to repeated exposure over evolution, our bodies have evolved to handle them.
Man-made allergies like food allergies need Epipen. No evolutionary defense exist for man-made allergies whether by food allergen injections or by PPI.
“IgE can persist for a lifetime in the case of peanut allergy.
In the absence of exposure to peanuts?”
Once diagnosed with peanut allergy, people avoid peanut exposure. So according to you, people should lose IgE and become allergy-free. We don’t see that in reality. So you have demonstrated again that vaccines are the cause. People with food allergy, avoid those foods. The only way they can continue to have allergy is by exposure to those food proteins in vaccines. Any other exposure would result in anaphylaxis which is impossible to miss.
http://hopkinschildrens.org/news-room/milk-and-egg-allergies-harder-to-outgrow.aspx
If you keep giving them egg allergy booster shots (flu vaccines) and DTap/TDaP milk allergy booster shots, how will they outgrow the allergy?
“Similarly we don’t know if those egg IgE subjects’ anti-egg IgE became transiently elevated after eating egg as well as after the influenza vaccine.”
They used dust mite IgE as a control. They would have seen changes in that as well if there were non-vaccine related changes.
Drat.
shay #630,
“but insect bites do not cause allergies.”
Tick bites can cause red meat allergy.
Narad #635, #633,
Great work finding those references. Thanks!
They raise more questions than they answer.
1. If absorbing proteins into the blood is perfectly normal in healthy people, why would anyone develop food allergies? What was wrong with Wells’ guinea pigs?
2. Newborns absorb intact proteins for a few days. Assuming that it is unsafe for them to absorb such food proteins during that window, breast milk must be tested during those few days post partum. The studies you posted were 11-21 weeks post partum where the peanut/OVA in breast milk should already be safe for the baby. Further, for those few days, the baby’s immune system is immature, would it even create IgE?
3. If 100s of nanogram of egg protein in milk is enough to sensitize a baby for egg allergy, injecting 1 mcg with a vaccine should do a much more efficient job of sensitizing, correct?
4. And all those allergen avoidance diets for Moms has done nothing for food allergies?
http://biomarkersandmilk.blogspot.com/2014/12/human-milk-has-microbiome-and-bacteria.html?m=1
“Current evidence supports dendritic cells as the likely transfer mechanism. These cells, along with some macrophages, can open the tight junctions between cells forming the gut barrier and take in living bacteria. ”
Perhaps the dendritic cells transfer proteins too? In other words, the allergenic proteins are transferred without exposure to the sensitizing parts of the immune system? Just like the bacteria? Otherwise, the bacteria would have been killed?
In that case, Mom won’t be sensitized.
Curses.
Unpossible!
Yah, but did they check him for track marks?
@APV #634:
Insect proboscides are self-cleaning for obvious reasons. Your proposed mechanism is implausible.
Citation needed for your claim, please.
No. This is a response to your claim that
Horse droppings (the “man-made” part). As was pointed out on this thread already, Hippocrates recorded instances of allergic reactions, even potentially fatal ones.
You are wooden-headed. You are convinced that vaccines provoke allergies, and every bit of “evidence” you have advanced is based on that premise. All you are doing is begging the question.
Aha! I think we just spotted what leads our engineer astray in trying to do science.
An engineer and a scientist both say “I want to devise the best X; if I can’t get the best X of all time, I’ll get the best X I can, and make that the basis for further work.” For an engineer, an X is a design; for a scientist, X is a hypothesis, a model. So far so good.
Where things go wrong is when the engineer tries to do science and brings with them the wrong idea of what the best is. For a certain engineer, ‘best’ in a design means “the maximum of features we want: if it works for tightening alpha-style grommets, it’s good, but if it can also do the job for beta-style and gamma-style, that makes it a better design! They think this applies to scientific models as well; they think that a hypothesis which purports to explain X is good, but one which purports to explain Y and Z as well must be better!
But the more elaborate a hypothesis is, the LESS chance that it is falsifiable, either philosophically or practically. The goal of science is not to think we know everything, but to have maximum confidence that what we think is true actually is. The engineer reacts to criticism of their model by making it more elaborate, which moves AWAY from what’s actually desired.
@Antaeus Feldspar
Good catch. Another difference between science and engineering is revealed here:
APV, this shows your ignorance of medical trial design. You always, always control for all variables except the variable of interest. Otherwise, you cannot conclude that the results you are seeing are due to the variable of interest (e.g., the antigen) rather than to something else in the formulation. There is always the possibility that there is something other than the antigen that could cause an issue. If we don’t control for that, then we might mistakenly attribute the problem to the antigen.
Newer vaccines (those developed within the last decade or two) are also compared against a saline, in addition to the excipients minus the antigen, to make sure the overall formulation doesn’t increase risk of a reaction. This helps determine if some reaction seen during trials is due to the overall formulation. If that turns up something, then the manufacturer needs to determine what the overall risk of that is, how that risk compares to the disease that would be prevented, and, if necessary, what is causing that problem.
And keep in mind that many vaccines don’t just give a single dose, so under your paradigm, an allergic reaction would be noticed during the trial.
Tick bites can cause red meat allergy.
Bites from one type of tick have been linked to a temporary reaction to red meat in the Southwestern US; however, we’re talking about hay fever.
Antaeus Feldspar @ 642 – my late father, an engineer, truly despised the statement that “perfect is the enemy of good enough.” And he found complexity to be preferable to a simple solution.
If insectbites have something to do with hay-fever, would this mean people in parts of Finlands were mosquitos are considered the Finnish airforce, have more hay-fever than people elsewhere, where there are less mosquitos?
Interesting related link http://www.nbcnews.com/…/cdc-warning-flu-viruses-mutate-eva…
Hey, it’s worked for string theory.
Oh, wait.
Yes, Patti, the link was very interesting. It says:
Have someone tell you how to properly copy a URL link.
Patti, another wee bit of advice, before spreading old news links on blogs, actually read the above article first.
I actually found the link you were trying for.That link was included in this article, and is, in fact, the very first URL link used.
Julian Frost #641,
“Hippocrates recorded instances of allergic reactions, even potentially fatal ones.”
As I already wrote, genetic defects can cause stomach acid reduction and result in food allergies. These are very rare and a great example of the process of evolution at work.
The food allergy epidemic we have today is very difficult to explain with genetic changes. It is man-made. If you have a better hypothesis for the cause of the food allergy epidemic, please post with supporting evidence.
Antaeus Feldspar #642,
“The engineer reacts to criticism of their model by making it more elaborate, which moves AWAY from what’s actually desired.”
This model is as simple as it gets. Injecting proteins into mammals is dangerous. Proven over and over again. And it is not my model. It is Charles Richet’s Nobel Prize winning model.
@Narad:
From what I’ve heard, some string theorists have given up on it ever being able to produce a falsifiable prediction, but still think it has value because whatever is discovered to be correct will still have to fit into the string theory framework in order to be consistent with what we already know.
Ohgawd please don’t, my back already hurts and if you keep making me laugh that hard, I may injure it critically. Your model is NOT “as simple as it gets”, it’s gelatin this and proton pump inhibitors that and mouthsores yes and puncture wounds no and special cases all over the place. “Simple” it is effing NOT.
Now it would be okay, hell, it would be LAUDABLE, if your hypothesizing was spreading and metastatizing every other hour because you were working hard to make it consistent with the evidence. But that’s not the case; you’re simply trying to make your hypothesis so that the evidence can never prove it wrong, even if it is.
Even though she mucked up the link, and thought it was new and relevant to this discussion even though it was the first one listed in the article… she was at least on topic.
Very much unlike APC, who cannot answer a simple question on the relative risk of the influenza vaccines approved use on children in the USA this year versus the ris of the actual disease.
Todd W. #643,
“You always, always control for all variables except the variable of interest.”
You must be joking.
Here are the Cervarix trials:
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM186981.pdf
There are 4 groups studied. Cervarix and control groups, HAV 720, HAV 360 and aluminum hydroxide.
Cervarix contains HPV viral proteins, aluminum hydroxide, MPL, insect cells, baculovirus proteins and bacterial proteins among other things. We have to assume that HAV is the Havrix vaccine because they did not document that. Havrix contains, MRC-5, polysorbate 20, neomycin sulfate and formalin along with the viral antigen.
This is “always, always control for all variables except the variable of interest”?
Looks like all the variables are out of control …
“APV, this shows your ignorance of medical trial design.”
If this is representative of how medical trials are designed, the objective seems to be maximum obfuscation, at best. At worst, it looks like a manipulation of the trial for a desired outcome.
Julian Frost #641,
“Why did the flu vaccine in 2013 cause *elicitation* in children with gelatin allergy?
Citation needed for your claim, please.”
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131108090127.htm
Julian Frost #641,
“Insect proboscides are self-cleaning for obvious reasons.”
Not a grain of pollen left? What if they “clean” the pollen into you with their saliva?
“Your proposed mechanism is implausible.”
Because …
doug #629,
Sensitization and elicitation can occur at different locations.
When proteins are injected into the body, IgE is synthesized. IgE travels through the body and binds to mast cells and basophils that are also present in the mouth. When these IgE are exposed to the same protein as the injection, they bind with the protein, triggering an allergic reaction.
In a normal person, sensitization cannot occur by eating foods (A4). A3 occurs because the person was sensitized by injected proteins.
Mephistopheles O’Brien #626,
Poorly hydrolyzed gelatin in vaccines caused the development of gelatin allergy in Japan in 1999.
Poorly hydrolyzed gelatin in vaccines caused allergic reactions in the US in 2013.
“contaminated milk proteins” in DTaP/TdaP caused anaphylaxis in the US in 2011.
If there was a spec. established and enforced, could these not have been prevented?
“If there were a perceived need for a standard, I am sure the FDA would love to create one. That’s what they do for a living.”
Looks like they twiddle their thumbs for a living.
@justthestats
*blink*
Not exactly on topic, but causes of autism are certainly apropos on most threads on this blog.
Trying to find Patti’s article, (I’m pretty sure I’ve already read it) I find this announcement of some new results from the Harvard Nurses study.
http://www.nbcnews.com/health/kids-health/autism-air-pollution-new-study-bolsters-suspected-link-n270331
The study seems to show that there is at least a partial environmental cause of autism. But, it’s not vaccines. It’s tiny particulates in air pollution from vehicles, power plants, burning buildings, etc.
Oh, for Pete’s sake.
Injecting anything into some living being is dangerous.
Walking across the street is dangerous.
Eating is dangerous.
With such sweeping generalities, one can justify anything.
Here, we are supposedly debating about the potential presence of food proteins into vaccines and if they are presenting so much of a risk of priming allergy as to justify to get all worked up about it.
As I said before, and I repeat it here for emphasis and clarity, I’m ready to agree that someone who knows has an allergy to some stuff is justified in being careful about what possible allergens a vaccine may contain, and in this context having a bigger warnings on vaccine boxes could also be justified.
But we are not talking about that.
Somehow, we are now talking about about people harvesting seaweed so fast and so sloppily that it’s packed with shrimps, and no-one notice. Or about carnivorous female mosquitoes taking a bath in a tub full of pollen before going to suck the blood out of some mammal.
You are arguing out of bad faith. Smaller words: you are a liar and a deceiver.
@APV _ just curious… among common food allergies, Food Allergy.org lists spiced including coriander and garlic.
Do you believe spices are regularly included in vaccines?
I am noticing you have two ways to have allergy – vaccines and reduced stomach acid. That way your hypothesis has a backup for allergies not created by vaccine.
You said earlier that your whole family has allergies. I pointed out that mine does, too. I consider my son’s allergies to be another trait that shows we are related.
Medical science isn’t “come up with complex explanations and react.” It is come up with a hypothesis, design a trial to account for any possible confounders, etc. For as many things we have similar as human beings, we are susceptible to various biases, etc. When we are personally invested in the answer even more so.
“Citation needed for your claim, please.”
The Science Daily article is not a citation. It just has quotes saying that there may be a small possibility, which is why those who get vaccines need to hang around for a few minutes.
Now where is the PubMed indexed study showing that any influenza vaccine approved for use in children in the USA causes more harm than the disease. A disease that killed over a hundred kids in each of the previous two flu seasons, and has already caused seven pediatric deaths this early in this season.
The engineer claims that he and his family members have allergies and asthma. I provided the engineer with the ACIP Guidelines for Immunization which include the only absolute medical contraindication (an episode of anaphylaxis associated with a prior flu shot), for receiving flu vaccine shots.
The engineer and his family have no histories of anaphylaxis from prior flu shots/absolute medical contraindications for receiving flu shots.
Case closed.
P.S. Engineer you’re full of yourself and full of it.
Helianthus #663,
“Injecting anything into some living being is dangerous.”
Yes, that is why you inject (if required) with extreme caution.
That means establishing safe limits, specifying/testing before you inject anything.
“potential presence of food proteins”
Food proteins being present in vaccines is a fact.
Agar is derived from red algae which can contaminate seafood without anyone being sloppy.
The proboscis used to feed on flowers being contaminated with pollen grains is too far fetched for you?
Do you have a counter hypothesis for the cause of pollen allergy?
@APV
To follow Narad’s style, oops.
Another source of food allergies: inhalation.
Mrs Woo #664,
Any route by which proteins are introduced into the body where the immune system can be exposed to it and be sensitized, needs to be considered.
Injections, stomach acid reduction, eczema skin exposure and insect bites have been demonstrated to cause sensitization.
The special consideration with respect to injections is that they often include an aluminum adjuvant that is known to increase the Th2 response. Th2 response is associated with allergies.
http://www.jimmunol.org/content/183/10/6186.long
“It is come up with a hypothesis, design a trial to account for any possible confounders, etc.”
That is what I am asking for. Why a hundred years after the discovery of protein injections causing anaphylaxis, we still have not established safe levels for proteins injected into humans? What is worse is we have a raging food allergy epidemic, the cause for which is officially unknown. And people refuse to consider the most obvious, well known, old, proven mechanism of sensitization, as a cause at all? Why?
Again, important to remember, vaccines are A likely cause, not the only possible cause of all allergies.
Unless excipient makers (Polysorbate 80, etc.) are forced to disclose what ingredients are used, we will never know the whole list. As I wrote before, maize, wheat, palm, safflower oil, kosher tapioca have all been disclosed as being used by a handful of manufacturers.
Are spices and peanut oil used in excipients? The excipient makers have to tell us. The FDA has to force them to tell us.
Todd W. #668,
Do I have to define normal person for you?
If everyone can be sensitized by eating normal food, then everyone, developing/developed world should have the same prevalence of food allergy.
Further, the reference you provided is talking about Type II, III and IV. We are discussing Type I here. So it is not relevant.
APV,
Where did you get the idea that mosquitoes feed on flowers?
It seems much more likely that inhaled pollen causes pollen allergy:
This suggests that small doses of food proteins ingested or inhaled are more likely to cause allergies than larger doses injected intramuscularly.
Clearly we have, hence the relatively rapid detection and resolution of the Japanese gelatin problem. We have seen, based on work from a century ago, that there is far too little food protein in current vaccines to cause allergies – in the case of egg proteins in influenza vaccines 250 times less than the minimum dose required to produce sensitization in a guinea pig.
It isn’t clear that we really do have a food allergy ‘epidemic’ (I really dislike the use of the word in this way), as the increase in reported prevalence may be driven by increased awareness rather than by a real increase. It reminds me of autism, the rise in reported cases of which is also blamed on vaccines with just as little evidence.
As I wrote above, the constant rate of fatal anaphylaxis seen in some studies suggests that there is no real increase.
I and several other people have exerted a considerable amount of time and effort on this thread doing just that. If I dismissed the possibility outright I wouldn’t have bothered looking at studies on the subject. It isn’t impossible that food proteins in vaccines sometimes trigger allergies, but I see no real evidence that this is the case.
Also, since about 90 trillion eggs are consumed in the US every year, about 4000,000,000 micrograms grams of egg protein per person per year, I don’t see why we would be obsessing about 1 microgram of ovalbumin in an annual influenza vaccine, particularly when allergies are preferentially triggered by presentation of proteins to GI mucosa than by IM injection.
It might also help if somebody demonstrated that mosquitoes feed on pollen in the first place.
The carbohydrate comes from nectar. The males gotta eat something.
The females drink nectar as well; the blood is actually only for nourishing the eggs (which is why an unfertilized female will not bite — no reason to).
Random factoid: one method of mosquito control is to release sterilized males into the area. A mosquito will only mate once, so if a female mates with a sterile male, she will never become pregnant. The upshot is that not only will she never lay eggs, thus disrupting their reproduction, but she also won’t be driven to bite. Since a female can, after mating, take several blood meals and produce several batches of eggs, this is actually a surprisingly effective method of control. The main downside is that it’s very labor intensive and requires a captive breeding population — which, yes, will need to be fed blood from live donors, and yes, those live donors are often the staff at the mosquito breeding facilities. 😉
I’ve yet to find a sufficiently discrete way to inquire of a mosquito whether it is a) female and b) in a family way. I generally presume that any mosquito I meet is a fertilized female and act accordingly.
Calli Arcale…Couldn’t we put little condoms on male insects?
P.S. It’s that time of year and I think I know which thread is going to be devoted to the foodies.
Male mosquitoes are readily identified by their mustaches.
Question b) is rather more delicate.
“… act accordingly” – offer a hand? remove your hat?
I do admire the effort Krebiozen and others have put into this matter. I am not so generous:
Developing countries
Hygiene hypothesis
Plasmodium
worms
I always thought female mosquitoes subsisted exclusively on blood – consider me educated. However, I’m still having trouble believing that mosquitoes drink nectar from ragweed and grasses and get sufficient pollen up their proboscises to induce allergies.
It is odd that people widely develop allergies to ragweed rather than goldenrod in this scenario.
Mephistopheles:
The appropriate reaction upon seeing any mosquito, male or female, is a blood-splattering blow. If nothing else, their wingbeats make the most *irritating* whine.
I’m allergic to goldenrod; it can happen, though I’ve had people look disdainfully me and try to educate me that it’s a *myth* people get allergic to that. Um, no, I got the stupid scratch test. I endured that, you can damn well believe I’m allergic to it. 😀
Also to ragweed. And lilies. (Only true lilies, though; daylilies are fine. And other aliums, like garlic and onion, don’t bother me at all.) And whatever that pretty puffy plant is that grows by the side of my house. And grass. And trees. And mold. And dust mites. And cigarette smoke. (I can detect a smoker by my nose itching before I notice the odor. On the plus side, it means I’ve had zero temptation to smoke.) And cat. Oh boy, am I allergic to cats.
THAT’S WHAT CAUSED THE ALLERGY!
This one I doubt, though. The particulate is the wrong size for an allergen.
Narad — I don’t know what it is in cigarette smoke that I’m allergic to, but it definitely makes me sneeze. Either that or every single smoker I’ve met is also a cat owner with terrible housekeeping habits. 😉
I don’t think anyone would dispute that it’s an irritant.
And, yes, I’m wearing three 21 mg patches.
Narad #684,
“Um, no, I got the stupid scratch test.
THAT’S WHAT CAUSED THE ALLERGY!”
Agree. Intradermal is almost twice as immunogenic as intramuscular …
Old Blinky Box must be in sleep mode.
So, I might try out a recipe for calamari salad for Xmas eve.
Where’s Chris?
Uff da!
Krebiozen #672,
“It seems much more likely that inhaled pollen causes pollen allergy:”
Ok, inhaled pollen seems like another possibility …
People working in restaurants develop food allergy due to inhalation? Have not heard that yet …
Insect bites are probably more intradermal than intramuscular? Sanofi Pasteur tells us that intradermal is almost twice as effective as intramuscular (hence almost half the vaccine dose).
“Clearly we have, hence the relatively rapid detection and resolution of the Japanese gelatin problem.”
No, we don’t have a safe protein level spec.
8-18 ng/ml of casein in the TDaP vaccine triggered anaphylaxis. Sensitization requires less allergen than elicitation.
Further, DTaP/TDaP have aluminum phosphate as an adjuvant. Aluminum produces a bias towards Th2 response or allergies.
Do we know how much casein is needed in the presence of an aluminum based adjuvant to cause sensitization?
I don’t think we have the answer. And nobody (at the FDA) seems to be in any hurry to find out …
http://www.jimmunol.org/content/183/10/6186.long
“It isn’t clear that we really do have a food allergy ‘epidemic’ (I really dislike the use of the word in this way)”
You can use whatever word you like but 1 in 13 kids suffering this disease is unacceptable.
“Also, since about 90 trillion eggs are consumed in the US every year, about 4000,000,000 micrograms grams of egg protein per person per year, I don’t see why we would be obsessing about 1 microgram of ovalbumin in an annual influenza vaccine”
GI mucosa have evolved to deal with egg/food in large quantities without becoming allergic. It is designed by evolution to do that job.
1 mcg of egg injected into the deltoid muscle, is a whole different story. How often does that happen in nature? Often enough to evolve a defense? No, and that’s the problem.
“particularly when allergies are preferentially triggered by presentation of proteins to GI mucosa than by IM injection.”
Reference please.
Why don’t we squirt the inactivated influenza vaccine into our mouths for GI presentation?
“Where’s Chris?”
Watching the insanity of one young physician who needs a psychiatrist at SBM. Though I did finally finish a library book on phycisists in Germany during WWII.
Though dear hubby and I went out to lovely restaurant, which is a small chain based in Canada that provides “just right” portions. I had the “Test Kitchen” paella, full of lots of allergenic seafood like scallops, lobster and shrimp!
By the way, when my kids went to city summer nature camp (a place where they foraged through the urban parks after the police had chased out the transients… one child left his lunch bag on the side of the train, and when he returned all of his lunch was gone except for the little carrots) they had a visit from the “Bug Man.”
This dude was awesome! He had trays of lots of dead bugs, and then several quite live ones. Things like centipedes, spiders, beetles, and small scorpions. But when he handled the live ones he needed wear nitrile exam gloves. Since he worked with the critters so much, he was now allergic to them, and of course to most shellfish.
By the way, from a skin test I know I am allergic to nicotine. I never liked the smell of cigarette smoke. I am also allergic to nickel, ragweed, mold, willow and alder (the reaction to that went up my arm!). My sister is allergic to wool, and lots of of the same pollen.
Our father has similar allergies. But he did not get many of the vaccines we got as kids (polio, influenza, etc). He survived the diseases. He almost died from an allergic reaction to penicillin. But that reaction started after he finished with the full bottle, it was not quick.
It is how our immune system is tuned by genetics, and it as nothing to do with vaccines.
I am still waiting for APV to provide the verifiable statistics that any influenza vaccine approved for children in the USA causes as much harm as the disease, which has already killed seven kids this year.
Krebiozen,
Would 15 mcg of injected ovalbumin have any effect on the immune system?
We know 15 mcg of injected HA protein produces a robust defense against the flu virus.
Where’s lilady?
I was just skimming the comments on the SBM blog. We could send the engineer/immunologist over there to discuss influenza vaccines.
Your restaurant find sounds nice and I love smaller portions such as what you would find at a tapas restaurant. The DH loves the multiple small portions (soup, salad and entree) and we split a plate of assorted appetizers.
There are four additional confirmed pediatric influenza deaths reported through December 13th, for a total of eleven confirmed pediatric influenza deaths.
Ooops…omitted link from my prior post:
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/#S3
Myself: “one child left his lunch bag on the side of the train, ”
Bad typo… not “train” but “trail.”. aargh
Cripes! I just checked that same link before posting! It must have been updated as I posted.
So APV needs to prove his contention that influenza vaccine is more dangerous than disease with real is now more crucial.
I am allergic to penicillin. It was so long ago when I was a young child but you never forget the urticaria wheals which were large and painful…and scary. I’ve never taken any penicillin analogs or any cephalosporins and when I was working I had bracelet indicating those allergies.
I think I mentioned on a prior thread that I and the other ~ 60 – 70 nurses and doctors who worked at the health department, who had administered hundreds of thousands of vaccines, never observed a serious allergic reaction or had any serious delayed allergic reactions reported, which required epinephrine.
</plonk-*dishes*>
*Koff*.
10-4?
<*dishes*>
* “Some flu vaccines contain Polysorbate 80. Polysorbate 80 manufacturers use a variety of vegetable oils that could include peanut oil. It is therefore not possible to rule out the presence of peanut oil in vaccine.”
I may be displaying a recurrent symptom of misspelling my own name, but I’m oriented as to person, place, and time, promise.
—–
</plonk-*dishes*>
*Koff*.
10-4?
<*dishes*>
* “Some flu vaccines contain Polysorbate 80. Polysorbate 80 manufacturers use a variety of vegetable oils that could include peanut oil. It is therefore not possible to rule out the presence of peanut oil in vaccine.”
Oh, screw it, there are two hopelessly redundant comments in moderation from Marad’s cousin Naradd.
Are Marad and Naradd first cousins?
I screwed up one time about two years ago, when I attempted to reply to the Ugh Troll and I inadvertently inserted the Troll’s ‘nym instead of lilady. It got posted immediately, because I had my correct email address in the field.
Chris, don’t forget there is a lag time for reporting all notifiable diseases. It’s very possible that the chain of influenza infections in schools will be broken during the children’s holiday break. Just wait…by mid January 2015 those infections which occur in schools will come roaring back.
In my County there was always some competition among the hospitals’ virology labs to see who could report the first confirmed case of influenza to our health department.
This statement is so broad that I don’t even know what to make of it. Nicotine is the exemplar nicotinic agonist, but it seems as though all sorts of things would go haywire in this scenario.
APV,
How much food protein is inhaled in a restaurant compared to how much food is eaten? The immunology text book I referred to suggests that desiccated soluble proteins like those in pollen and dust mite feces are the most likely allergens. I doubt there is much desiccated soluble food protein in the moist air of a restaurant kitchen.
That makes sense but I’m not sure I see your point. Only a very few vaccines are adminstered intradermally, as far as I know, and these use less antigen thus reducing the risk of allergy.
Even if we don’t have a specification, of which I am still unconvinced, as I don’t believe the FDA or vaccine manufacturers would share this information with a casual enquirer, we do have organizations and committees of experts devoted to looking at every ingredient and every aspect of a vaccine’s safety before approving it. That is in addition to the manufacturer making every effort to ensure the safety of their product. Having to withdraw a vaccine due to safety concerns is a very expensive business that no drug company wants to go through.
Do we know that injection of casein can cause sensitization in humans? As I wrote before, we know allergies are mostly caused when proteins are presented to either GI or respiratory mucosa. Some proteins may require partial digestion to become allergenic (I read this recently but can’t find where).
I don’t know about a bias towards Th2; it stimulates both Th1 and Th2, and the paper you refer to states that aluminum produces, “a bias toward promoting Abs and a Th2 response”.
How do you know what research is currently going on, or what criteria the FDA use to assess safety? There is a huge amount of research into food allergy, with almost 3,000 papers just with “food allergy” in their titles.
You can use whatever word you like but 1 in 13 kids suffering this disease is unacceptable.
Where did you get the 1 in 13 figures? I have seen estimates of between 2% and 5% confirmed allergy. I agree it is higher than we would want, but blaming vaccines for this when there is no good reason to think they are to blame isn’t going to help.
It is designed by evolution to deal with parasitic infections, which is why ingested and inhaled proteins are the most important allergens. Your claim that allergy is unnatural therefore it must be due to vaccines just doesn’t hold water.
1 mcg of egg injected into the deltoid muscle, is a whole different story. How often does that happen in nature? Often enough to evolve a defense? No, and that’s the problem.
If we haven’t evolved a defense against injected egg protein we wouldn’t generate an allergy, would we? Allergies are the result of a defense against parasitic infection going awry, and we have established that 75 micrograms of injected egg protein would be required to sensitize an underweight 6-month-old child, based on Wells.
I gave you the reference, to ‘Immunobiology: The Immune System in Health and Disease. 5th edition’, and I quoted the relevant passage. Here it is again (my emphasis):
Back to your comment:
You want to design a vaccine that is more likely to cause allergy? A few micrograms of influenza antigen would be unlikely to survive digestion, whereas some of the 50,000,000 micrograms of egg protein in a single egg may well survive to be presented at the submucosa of the gut. I wonder if intranasal influenza vaccines might be more likely to lead to allergies, but given the vanishingly tiny amount of egg protein in them (Flumist contains (< 0.24 mcg/dose) I don't think there is much danger.
Apologies, I screwed up a couple of blockquotes, and APV’s words got mixed up in my response. These were APV, not me:
“You can use whatever word you like but 1 in 13 kids suffering this disease is unacceptable.”
“1 mcg of egg injected into the deltoid muscle, is a whole different story. How often does that happen in nature? Often enough to evolve a defense? No, and that’s the problem.”
People working in restaurants develop food allergy due to inhalation? Have not heard that yet …
Baker’s asthma is well known (allergy to flour).
Folks who work with lab animals often develop allergies to the bedding used, and sometimes the animals themselves.
Just because you haven’t heard of it, doesn’t mean it isn’t known, and hasn’t been studied.
I’m still waiting for the engineer, who, has no risk factors for himself or his family against receiving influenza vaccines shots and, who has risk factors (asthma) for contracting influenza, is not getting the seasonal influenza shots:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr6002a1.htm
The engineer has not commented on the 11 confirmed pediatric deaths from influenza YTD in the United States, nor has he come up with any deaths/serious adverse events (anaphylaxis) associated with influenza shots.
Case closed.
Greetings and tidings, shills and minions!
‘Tis solstice day and a new moon simultaneously- in other words, quite darkish- and time for feasts, frolics and toasts- altho’ I’ve had nearly enough of that balderdash already- esp yesterday and night…
.
At any rate, comments have now passed the auspicious 666 mark and barreled ahead to 700 and beyond:
SO who are our lucky winners?
lilady and Narad who will get bonus bonuses, plenty of champagne and FREE pharmaceuticals!
APV –
It would follow from your hypothesis that the rate of allergies among unvaccinated people would be extremely low — comparable to the vanishingly low rate you seem to believe existed before vaccination was developed — compared to the “epidemic” rate you cite.
Do you have citations for studies that have compared the rates of allergies among the unvaccinated and the vaccinated? I would think that such a gigantic difference would be easily determinable.
Thank you.
APV:
Once again, your comment assumes that we have an epidemic of food allergies, much like the purported “autism epidemic” which turned out to be a case of better detection and awareness.
Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers. You have placed plenty of ad-hoc explanations on to your hypothesis, from PPI’s and inadequate stomach acid to the frankly ludicrous idea that mosquito bites are an explanation for pollen allergy.
Because even if pollen did get into a female mosquito proboscis (highly unlikely) and even if it wasn’t cleaned out completely (also highly unlikely), there would be so little pollen that it is exceptionally unlikely that it would elicit an allergic response in someone she bit.
Helianthus @663 has pretty much summarised the ludicrousness of some of your arguments.
Yes, it is too far-fetched. And our counter hypothesis is the originally proposed one, without your elaborate injections.
One more thing: just because nobody can come up with a counter hypothesis doesn’t mean your hypothesis is the correct one. And the fact that you’ve had to stick on a bunch of ad-hoc moves in response to our takedowns says it’s wrong.
Denice Walter: You bring joy to me and mine during this Winter solstice season. I can only hope that His Lordship (praise be to his name), deems me worthy of bestowing those shiny trinkets (proof Krugerrands).
Everyone *knows* that the increase in use of disposable infant diapers is responsible for the increase in prevalence of food allergies…and autism.
Narad — no, there’s definitely an allergic reaction I get. Again, I don’t know what it is specifically I’m allergic to, but there’s something. It doesn’t have to be somebody actively smoking, and antihistamines completely suppress the reaction.
APV — ““Um, no, I got the stupid scratch test.
THAT’S WHAT CAUSED THE ALLERGY!””
That was actually me, not Narad. FYI. 😉 And thank you for explaining why I’m now allergic to everything in the allergy test. Oh wait, except I’m not. Hm. Also, what a tidy way you’ve found to discount the gold standard test for diagnosing allergies. I don’t suppose you’re finding preemptive ways to protect your beliefs now, are you? 😉
When even MDC readily provides counterexamples, there just aren’t enough trombonists in the world to get the message across.
Calli Arcale, #712
http://www.allergynutrition.com/journal/joneja-jmv-comment-skin-testing-2004-full-article/
It’s a matter of probability. Just because you did not get an allergy to *every* allergen in the test, it is not proof that the test does not cause the development of allergies.
Darwy #706,
The point is it is very rare. It is not as effective a mechanism of sensitization as claimed. People cook more often in the third world (fewer fast food outlets). They should have more inhalation triggered food allergies and we should have less. Our children don’t live/work in restaurants. Why do they have higher rates of food allergies?
Why hasn’t the engineer/immunolgist wannabe, read the list of contraindications to receiving influenza shots…and replied to the questions posed by me and Chris?
APV, I have another explanation for the increase in allergies: You, personally, caused them through the practice of black magic. Is it up to you to prove your innocence, or me to prove my allegation?
</plonk-o-matic>
At least my lapse in willpower was promptly rewarded.
“Results During the study period, a total of 273 [Cameroonian] bakers were invited and 229 finally agreed to participate in this study…. Sensitisation to wheat flour and α-amylase was found in 16.6% and 8.3% of participants, respectively. The Prick test was positive for mites in 12.2% of participants.”
Krebiozen #704,
“This suggests that small doses of food proteins ingested or inhaled are more likely to cause allergies than larger doses injected intramuscularly.”
“That makes sense but I’m not sure I see your point.”
I was saying, insect bites being intradermal (ID), you should be looking at inhaled vs. ID instead of inhaled vs. IM.
“Do we know that injection of casein can cause sensitization in humans?”
Great question! We have known for a hundred years that injected proteins can cause sensitization.
So you would think that any vaccine designer who is looking to use casein as a growth medium would have asked and answered this question first?
So where are the studies?
Looks like the FDA’s approach to vaccine safety is: inject first, ask questions later … if at all.
“I doubt there is much desiccated soluble food protein in the moist air of a restaurant kitchen.”
“we know allergies are mostly caused when proteins are presented to either GI or respiratory mucosa.”
Seems contradictory. Are you saying the respiratory route is a major contributor to food allergies or not?
“Even if we don’t have a specification, of which I am still unconvinced, as I don’t believe the FDA or vaccine manufacturers would share this information with a casual enquirer, we do have organizations and committees of experts devoted to looking at every ingredient and every aspect of a vaccine’s safety before approving it.”
Well, FDA said it does not exist. They did not say it is a confidential document that cannot be made public.
Sanofi Pasteur also said it does not exist.
“That is in addition to the manufacturer making every effort to ensure the safety of their product. Having to withdraw a vaccine due to safety concerns is a very expensive business that no drug company wants to go through.”
Vaccine makers have no liability especially when there is no specification that can be used to demonstrate a violation.
So unless their vaccines kill immediately, they are home-free.
“A recent study from US Public Citizen found that, since 1991, there have been 239 legal settlements, totaling $30.2 billion in federal and state penalties, levied against US pharmaceutical companies. There’s a real laundry list of crimes, but defrauding the government, hiding drug safety information, and hawking drugs for purposes beyond which they are approved are the main ones.”
http://www.cochrane.org/news/blog/eminence-vs-evidence
Recalls (if any), “settlements without admitting wrongdoing”, are all rolled into the “cost of doing business”.
http://www.foodallergy.org/facts-and-stats
“This potentially deadly disease affects 1 in every 13 children (under 18 years of age) in the U.S. That’s roughly two in every classroom.”
“IgE antibodies are important in host defense against parasitic infections and this defense system is distributed anatomically mainly at the sites of entry of parasites—under the skin, under the epithelial surfaces of the airways (the mucosal-associated lymphoid tissues), and in the submucosa of the gut (the gut-associated lymphoid tissues). Cells of the innate and adaptive immune systems at these sites are specialized to secrete predominantly cytokines that drive TH2 responses.”
““particularly when allergies are preferentially triggered by presentation of proteins to GI mucosa than by IM injection.”
Reference please.”
Your reference quote says nothing about preferential triggering in GI mucosa over IM.
In normal healthy individuals, GI mucosa food sensitization cannot happen due to evolution. Such individuals would have been eliminated by natural selection. You will of course have a few individuals who may have developed a genetic defect that causes GI mucosa sensitization, but that is the ongoing evolutionary process.
I don’t think babies in the third world are born with worms in their gut, that help alter immune response. Given all the allergens in breast milk per Narad’s references, third world kids should all be developing food allergies just like their Western counterparts, by GI exposure? So the GI mucosa explanation does not seem to work so well to explain observations.
@APV
Bzzt! Wrong. Let’s see if you can figure out why your statement is incorrect.
This belies a rather simplistic and incorrect view of evolution. Sensitization will not necessarily be eliminated by natural selection. 1) If the reaction produced by the sensitization is not sufficient to result in death, there is no reason that it would be eliminated. 2) If the reaction produced by sensitization only manifests after the individual has reproduced, then the genetic predisposition to an allergic reaction would be passed on, and thus not eliminated. 3) If the genetic predisposition to allergy is recessive, there’s no reason to think it would be eliminated. 4) If the predisposition to allergy is the result of a de novo mutation, there is no reason for it to be selected against through evolution. There are ample reasons why evolutionary processes would not necessarily eliminate GI-mediated development of food allergies.
Differences in reporting, health care infrastructure and awareness may also be an explanation.
“So unless their vaccines kill immediately, they are home-free.”
So tell us how many kids were killed by the influenza vaccine last year? Then compare it to the over a hundred who died from influenza last year.
Come on, tell how much more dangerous any influenza vaccine approved for children in the USA is than the actual disease. Which seems to be 10% to the hundred mark of pediatric deaths early in the season.
So are you cheering on the disease as it kills kids?
That’s funny, I can remember when it was impossible because of stomach acid. Or maybe this sentence is supposed to be taken on its face, rather than demanding that one interpolate a comma (on top of letting slide) before the second, ah, preposition.
^ Yah, yah, semi-Skitt. The parenthetical is premature by a word.
Krebiozen #704
“If we haven’t evolved a defense against injected egg protein we wouldn’t generate an allergy, would we?”
Anaphylaxis is a horrible defense tactic! So no, we have not evolved a defense against injected egg proteins at all.
How would we evolve a specific defense if we have not been exposed to it by being injected regularly? We have evolved moderated defense (no anaphylaxis) against commonly injected proteins like mosquito saliva, pollen, perhaps mold spores etc.
We have a general protein defense for injected viruses/bacteria etc. There is no way for the body to know if casein, gelatin or ovalbumin are parts of a novel virus or not. So it looks like injected virus/bacteria and food proteins are all treated the same.
Narad #722,
Stomach acid is obviously a product of evolution too. Among other functions, it also defends against food protein sensitization. What’s funny?
Narad #718,
My point was, inhalant exposure is not efficient enough to explain food allergies in the general public.
Todd W. #720,
I already covered (4). While I agree with (1,2,3), the bottom line is there is no survival advantage for individuals who develop GI-mediated life-threatening food allergies. (1,2,3) may delay the extinction. Matter of “when” not “if”.
Todd.W
“Vaccine makers have no liability
Bzzt! Wrong. Let’s see if you can figure out why your statement is incorrect.”
It is correct because Congress made a law creating a vaccine injury compensation system (to protect pharmaceutical companies from lawsuits) thus ensuring that pharmaceutical companies remain in the vaccine making business.
OccamsLaser #709,
There’s apparently not much interest in the medical community to perform such studies. With most researchers depending on government grants, it could be career suicide.
You can find some “unofficial” studies such as:
http://www.avoidingmilkprotein.com/vacandpea.htm
Julian Frost #710,
“Because even if pollen did get into a female mosquito proboscis (highly unlikely) and even if it wasn’t cleaned out completely (also highly unlikely), there would be so little pollen that it is exceptionally unlikely that it would elicit an allergic response in someone she bit.”
Pollen grains are estimated to weigh about 500 ng.
From Well’s experiments, 50 ng is enough to sensitize. So even a single grain may be enough to sensitize.
If you claim that it is not possible to have even a single pollen grain contaminating a proboscis, then Carl Sagan’s “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” applies.
If you don’t have a better counter hypothesis, you have to seriously consider the hypothesis that can explain many observations.
In any case, pollen allergy by mosquito bite is a consequence of the Richet allergy hypothesis, not something it hinges on …
You never mentioned that you or your family members had an episode of anaphylakis, after flu vaccine shots, which is the only absolute medical contraindication to receiving flu shots.
Case closed.
lilady #707,
I have already answered your questions in #193.
“is not getting the seasonal influenza shots:”
Where did I claim that I am not getting the shots?
I did the research to select the right flu vaccines and get the shots. Why else would I research them? I got the shots and posted my research for anyone else who may find it useful.
At least one doctor thanked me because they found my research useful and did not have the time to do it themselves.
There are too many loose ends with the FDA/CDC/ACIP to blindly trust their recommendations.
What part of the idiom are you unfamiliar with?
I mean, sure, you’re long past actually having amusement value, but it’s not as though my abstractly musing about what specific exchange mechanisms might be in play in your possibly impromptu attempt at a magic trick in which you appear to simultaneously construct a Blondie sandwich without waste while running around with goalposts would have much helped on your end. ■
You seem to have skipped over the part in which it is shown that mosquitoes feed on pollen.
Enough horseshіt, already: State and apply the definition of conditional probability.
Krebiozen,
Why manufacture cold adapted live attenuated influenza virus (LAIV) vaccines? Why not inhale the inactivated influenza vaccine if the respiratory exposure route works?
It avoids the LAIV risks of live virus, shedding, immunocompromised household members, asthma contraindication, etc.
Engineer, you did not answer my question at # 193
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2014/12/05/no-the-cdc-did-not-just-apologize-and-admit-that-this-years-flu-vaccine-doesnt-work/#comment-377039
The doctor who “complimented” you must not be too experienced, if you provided the absolute drivel that you’ve puked up here.
You have not provided any of your information that runs counter to the information provided by the FDA/CDC/ACIP.
Give it up now, engineer. You’re out of your league.
Oh, wow, I seem to have spoken to soon regarding the exhaustion of comedy.
Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200. Define “works.”
^ “too”; this monument has become so browser-unwieldy for me that there’s time to notice and then forget while waiting for the cursor to move, wherever that may prove to be.
APV #730:
You forgot to mention that the sensitisation was with purified egg protein, and in guinea pigs.
I never claimed that it was impossible, merely vanishingly unlikely. As for “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”, you’re the one claiming the that pollen gets into female mosquito proboscides, doesn’t get cleaned out, gets injected into a human when she bites, and from there provokes sensitisation. You, therefore, are the one who has to provide extraordinary evidence. I do not have to prove a negative.
Hey guys. Take it easy on the engineers eh? Some of us DO know when we are at risk of the DK effect. Although it requires close monitoring :D. Happy Holidays, I believe you say over there.
@APV
It doesn’t really matter if there is a survival advantage or not. If there is no survival disadvantage, then it will not be selected against and eliminated. We are full of all kinds of things that offer neither an advantage nor disadvantage for survival. Those things get passed along from generation to generation simply because they do not kill us off in sufficient numbers before the age of procreation.
@APV
I see you haven’t figured out why your comment is incorrect. Keep trying. Do some more research.
APV,
Hasn’t any of what people have pointed out to you here sunk in at all? It is overwhelmingly likely that food allergies are an unfortunate result of a combination of genetic susceptibility and exposure to allergenic proteins on food. Your hypothesis that vaccines cause food allergies is not supported by the evidence.
I still don’t see your point. The vast majority of allergies are to substances that are inhaled, ingested or applied to the skin, strongly suggesting that these are also the routes of sensitization. It’s you that is trying, increasingly desperately and unsuccessfully, to find evidence that they are caused by IM injection.
Some proteins are much more allergenic than others (see the immunology text book I linked to). I know that some people are allergic to ingested casein, but allergy to injected casein is very rare, and DTaP vaccines appear to contain too little casein to sensitize (less than 20 ng/ml).
As I wrote, some proteins only become allergenic after ingestion, probably because proteolysis exposes epitopes (PMID: 12097392).
How is that contradictory? The text book I linked suggested that desiccated proteins are most likely to induce respiratory allergy, and Darwy reminded us of allergy to flour in bakers. I seriously doubt that allergies to eggs, strawberries or peanuts are induced through inhalation.
The FDA specifically told you that it “reviews vaccine composition in its entirety to ensure the safety and efficacy of the vaccine”. Do you have any reason to disbelieve them?
That’s a commonly held myth.
My figures came from scientific studies, your figure comes from an allergy pressure group that is highly motivated to inflate the figures. We know that the majority of people who think they or their children have food allergies are found to be incorrect when blinded food challenges are used. The point is that you are blaming vaccines for this for no good reason.
What part of, “this defense system is distributed […] mainly […] under the skin, under the epithelial surfaces of the airways […] and in the submucosa of the gut” didn’t you understand?
Yet another ridiculous and ignorant statement. If that were true we wouldn’t see any serious genetic defects, because these individuals would have been eliminated by natural selection. Doesn’t your own family history of allergies show you that susceptibility to allergies is genetic?
So food allergy doesn’t occur naturally except when it does? If evolution will take care of it, how is it that you have managed to produce children, who will probably pass their propensity for allergy on to their children?
It seems very likely that allergies are due to our defenses against parasites mistaking a harmless protein for a parasitic protein. Nothing is perfect, certainly not something as complex as our immunological defenses.
No, the idea is they are exposed to more pathogens as soon as they are born, and that exposure may affect the subsequent development of their immune systems.
There is some evidence that prevalence of food allergies in the developing world is similar to that in the developed world, albeit to different foods, but there is less awareness. Here are some examples from this paper:
If you read that paper you will see that the allergies people have seem to relate to the foods they eat rather than to the vaccines they get. Odd that, isn’t it?
Allergies and anaphylaxis are mistakes by the part of the immune system that has evolved to deal with parasites, they have not evolved to serve any purpose. We don’t need a defense against injected egg proteins because they are harmless. There are proteases in the blood that harmlessly break them down to amino acids.
Through being exposed to it regularly via inhalation, ingestion or skin contact, obviously, but we don’t require a defense against food proteins.
Why do we need a defense against mosquito saliva and pollen, neither of which are pathogens? Mold spores are potentially pathogenic, but how are they injected? Allergy to mold is not uncommon, allergic bronchopulmonary aspergillosis for example, as is mosquito bite allergy.
If the immune system mistook casein, gelatin or ovalbumin for a virus it would produce IgG, not IgE. Anyway, we have learned a lot since Richet and Wells did their experiments. It seems to be proteins that are similar to parasitic proteins that generate allergies, and there are specific bits of proteins that are associated with pathogens and that generate a particularly strong immune response.
This isn’t true. From the text book I have linked to:
Contrary to your claims, it seems that inhalation and ingestion are more efficient at sensitizing than injection.
Inhalant exposure explains allergy to inhaled allergies and food ingestion and glitches in the IgE system adequately explain food allergies. I don’t see the problem with the conventional understanding of this.
You fundamentally misunderstand evolution as well as immunology. The existence of a trait doesn’t necessarily mean it has survival advantages, it may be a vestige of something that had survival advantages for a distant ancestor. It may have survival advantages in some circumstances, like IgE when dealing with a parasitic infection, but not others, such as IgE when an allergy develops. G6PD deficiency kills thousands every year yet it protects against malaria. There are many examples of traits that do not have any plausible survival advantages.
I don’t recall if anyone posted this link for APV, yet, but here is a study that looked specifically at allergies and non-specific infections between never-vaccinated and vaccinated individuals: Vaccination Status and Health in Children
and Adolescents.
Much as it may shock you, you cannot use your speculation as to why certain facts are not supported by the scientific literature in place of references to the scientific literature.
Todd W.,
Amusingly, that’s one of the studies APV cites as evidence that vaccines cause allergies, because none of the 1 to 10-year-old unvaccinated children had asthma.
Anyone with the slightest scientific literacy would immediately note that there were no associations that were even close to being statistically significant, with the lowest p being 0.1655, and that for a negative association between vaccination and asthma in 11 to 17-year-olds. Also, there were only 44 unvaccinated children in the 1-5 year-old group and only 20 unvaccinated children in the 6-10-year-old group, so if vaccination has no effect on allergies we would expect to find 0.8 (1.8% of 44) and 0.9 (4.6% of 44) asthmatic unvaccinated children in these groups respectively; we find zero in both groups, not surprisingly.
In other words these results are precisely what we would expect if vaccines had no effect on allergies.
It’s just one of several indicators that APV doesn’t understand the science that s/he cites.
Dammit, that should read 0.9 (4.6% of 20).
@Krebiozen
Ah, thanks. The thread got so long I forgot.
I believe I’ve run into a commenter like APV before. (S)he was so afraid of facts that (s)he had dispensed with the standard tin-foil hat and replaced it with a sheet of foil taped over the screen. It was lifted just long enough to glimpse a word or two from a response then another long, pointless, fact-free, link-filled rant could be composed without the dangerous electrons from the internet entering the room. The ball is now in APV’s court to prove this hypothesis wrong.
APV wrote (I’m avoiding the blockquote minefield):
“There’s apparently not much interest in the medical community to perform such studies. With most researchers depending on government grants, it could be career suicide.”
A couple of points. First, thank you for agreeing that you don’t know of any good-quality studies that support your hypothesis that vaccinations are correlated with what you claim is an “epidemic” of allergies among the vaccinated ONLY. It follows, of course, that you have not formed an opinion on that particular hypothesis, because as an engineer, you’re interested in solid factual backing for such a proposition.
Oddly, you go on to state that researchers could be committing career suicide by performing such studies. That’s a peculiar claim, because it makes it sound like you already know what the results of such studies would be — but that’s impossible, because you state that are unaware of any such prior studies of good quality.
The important point, though, is that you are on record that you are aware of no scientific support for the existence of a correlation between vaccination status and the development of allergies in general.
So, to conclude, you are putting forth a hypothesis, but you are not making a claim that the hypothesis has been demonstrated to be true to the satisfaction of, say, an engineer or scientist, or even that the correlation that the hypothesis predicts exists. But you’d be interested in studies that looked into the question.
OccamsLaser #750,
Put yourself in the shoes of a researcher. If you perform an unvaccinated vs. vaccinated study, the results could go either way. If it shows problems with the vaccinated, it could be career suicide. So why take the chance?
I wrote “could be career suicide” not “will be career suicide”.
I can’t cite studies if the people who are supposed to be performing the appropriate studies refuse to do it. Numerous times during this discussion, I have been asking for studies showing the safety of ingredients used in vaccines and specifications derived from such studies. I have seen none posted.
So you have to accept that the FDA is driving blind.
Even automobile fuels have a specification. We inject these vaccines into our babies and there is no specification for it?
Why is any scientist or engineer accepting this absurdity?
It is not *my* hypothesis. It is Charles Richet’s Nobel Prize winning finding that has been demonstrated to be true over and over again. We ignore it at our peril.
I can’t cite studies if the people who are supposed to be performing the appropriate studies refuse to do it.
What proof do you have — other than your own preconceieved notion — that the people who are supposed to be performing these studies refuse to do it?
Agh…take out that extra “e.”
APV wrote @751:
“Put yourself in the shoes of a researcher. If you perform an unvaccinated vs. vaccinated study, the results could go either way. If it shows problems with the vaccinated, it could be career suicide. So why take the chance?”
That’s interesting. You are making the claim that no studies have ever been undertaken that *might* find that some medication or therapy has some negative effects.
I assume that were you in the position to undertake such a study, you would refuse to perform it, because you wouldn’t have the integrity to perform a study that you think might result in the reduction of funds for future studies you would want to perform. I’m sorry to hear that you have such a low opinion of your own character, but I appreciate the admission.
Fortunately, there are many researchers who are not nearly so cowardly, and who are willing to look into topics regardless of the implications of one of the possible outcomes.
I do appreciate that, again, you have confirmed that you have not taken a considered position on the question of whether there is a correlation between vaccination status and allergies, because you admit you do not have the information to draw any such conclusion. I appreciate that you are an engineer and have resisted giving in to any petty biases you may have.
So, again, you are interested in exploring the hypothesis, but you don’t have a conviction one way or another, because you haven’t seen any reliable evidence that this extraordinary difference in allergy rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated people exists, and you’re an engineer and won’t settle for anecdotes and speculation. That’s good.
Antaeus Feldspar, #745,
“Much as it may shock you, you cannot use your speculation as to why certain facts are not supported by the scientific literature in place of references to the scientific literature.”
Scientific literature may be the best source of information we have but it has its problems. I forget the source but there was an article in a journal lamenting that nobody wanted to replicate findings – a key part of the scientific process.
Here’s an example of absurd “science” you can find in Nature magazine ( a prestigious source?). It has not been retracted.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v333/n6176/abs/333816a0.html
Human basophil degranulation triggered by very dilute antiserum against IgE
Dilution:1 in 1e120 parts! There are not enough atoms in the universe to achieve that dilution. But it did not stop them from publishing it! Another case of eminence vs. evidence ?
So, if it does not exist in the scientific literature does not mean it does not exist in reality. It just may not have been fashionable enough to fund a study.
shay #752,
Where are studies? It is the FDA’s job to perform studies regarding the safety of every component that goes into a vaccine to come up with a specification. They have not done it. That’s the proof.
Krebiozen #746,
The unavoidable problem with that study is the number of unvaccinated kids available for study.
The avoidable problem is this variable called vaccination.
Vaccination is a huge variable. Vaccines are made my multiple vendors, with various different formulations that vary over time. With such a complete lack of control over variables, such studies are useless. If the authors can use this study to claim vaccines do not cause allergies/asthma, then it is also justifiable to point out that 0 asthma cases were reported in a group of unvaccinated children.
Todd W #741,
“If there is no survival disadvantage, then it will not be selected against and eliminated.”
Life-threatening food allergy is definitely a disadvantage to survival.
Such as its overwhelmingly pointing out that you’re full of shіt? “Literature” sometime make yum-yum, sometime Need Different Brand?
Christ, my youngest cat was able to concretize these terms much more succinctly.
Of what?
Krebiozen at #746:
Also see comment #222 where APV dismisses the same study as irrelevant (because it did not look at the right expressions of allergy).
Krebiozen #743,
” If that were true we wouldn’t see any serious genetic defects, because these individuals would have been eliminated by natural selection. ”
Do you see 1 in 13 kids walking around with 3 legs? Those kind of serious genetic defects have indeed been eliminated by natural selection.
“So food allergy doesn’t occur naturally except when it does?”
How do you explain 1 in 13 kids developing identical genetic defects over a couple of generations?
If GI mucosa sensitization is the route, why is the cause of food allergy still officially classified as unknown? We should have solved it by now by eliminating allergens from the diet for the appropriate periods?
http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/foodallergy/clinical/documents/faguidelinespatient.pdf
“Guideline 39 suggests that parents and caregivers should consider using
hydrolyzed infant formulas instead of cow’s milk formula to prevent food
allergy from developing in children at risk for food allergy and who are not
exclusively breast-fed. ”
Trying to avoid intact allergen absorption/sensitization for the first few days ?
“Guideline 36 recommends that a mother not restrict her diet during
pregnancy or when breastfeeding as a way to prevent food allergy from
developing in her child.”
Given Narad’s breast milk allergen references, NIH does not think GI mucosa is the sensitization route …
And the FTC has not heard of NIH guideline 39 … and is suing Gerber for claiming that hydrolyzed formula
can prevent allergy.
http://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2014/10/ftc-charges-gerber-falsely-advertising-its-good-start-gentle
So who are you going to trust – NIH/FTC/FDA/CDC/ACIP?
They tried avoiding allergens in the diet. Now they say allergens are needed to induce tolerance …
The food allergy problem continues unchanged.
This is the state of affairs after 40 years of researching the problem?
May be they are barking up the wrong tree?
These authors not only accept that vaccines induce allergy, they were trying to find a solution … in 1997.
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/allergolint/46/4/46_4_249/_pdf
“Many cases are diagnosed as immediate-type
allergic reactions and it is well established that the IgE
antibody induced against the vaccine antigen or vaccine
components is responsible for the reactions. Adjuvants
are commonly used in vaccine preparations to elicit an
immune response because most vaccine antigens,
particularly purified, subunit and synthetic antigens,
possess weak immunogenicity by themselves. Aluminum
(alum) adjuvants, the most commonly used adjuvants in
modern vaccine preparations, are well known to induce
IgE synthesis.”
“We don’t need a defense against injected egg proteins because they are harmless. There are proteases in the blood that harmlessly break them down to amino acids.”
No, you know that injected egg protein is harmless. The body does not.
(1) If a mammal did not generate IgE/IgG to viral/bacterial injection, it is more likely to become extinct.
(2) If a mammal overreacted (anaphylaxis) to harmless mosquito saliva, it is likely to become extinct.
So they have evolved appropriate responses for these proteins.
Now we have introduced a new class of injected proteins for which there is no evolved response.
Some of our immune systems can mistake this new class of proteins as harmful viruses ( develop sensitization)
Some of our immune systems can mistake this new class of proteins as harmless mosquito saliva ( no sensitization).
IgE induced bacterial proteins:
Nagel J, Svec D, Waters T, Fireman Pl. IgE synthesis in man.
Development of specific IgE antibodies after immunization
with tetanus-diphtheria (Td) toxoids. J. Immunol. 1977;
As far as I understand, injecting proteins can cause both IgE and IgG synthesis, depending on the quantity of protein.
The Japanese flu/egg study looked for ovalbumin IgG but did not find it and concluded the quantity of ovalbumin was not sufficient for IgG formation.
From a high level, it seems like a simple model that Richet discovered.
Injecting virus/bacteria caused prophylaxis. So he tried sea anemone toxin injection into dogs to see if he can achieve prophylaxis. He discovered anaphylaxis.
Viral/bacterial proteins are injected. Sensitization occurs. Body is exposed to *small* quantities of virus/bacteria. Prophylaxis results.
Food proteins are injected. Sensitization occurs. Body is exposed to *large* quantities of food (when compared to virus/bacteria). Anaphylaxis results.
If one is exposed to large (food-like) quantities of virus/bacteria after a vaccination with the same, I suspect anaphylaxis will result.
“The FDA specifically told you that it “reviews vaccine composition in its entirety to ensure the safety and efficacy of the vaccine”. Do you have any reason to disbelieve them?”
They have failed to ensure safety. Gelatin in flu vaccine is causing anaphylaxis. Milk in DTaP in causing anaphylaxis.
It is impossible to ensure safety if you don’t control what goes into vaccines. The FDA just admitted that it does not control what goes into vaccines.
APV,
Why would it be career suicide? If you are thinking of Andrew Wakefield, his career was doing just fine, despite his paper that linked MMR to autism, which was published in The Lancet, a highly reputable journal. It was only when it turned out his research was fraudulent that his career went down the pan.
I’m also reminded of Dr. John Wilson, whose 1973 paper suggested a link between the whole cell pertussis vaccine and neurological complications. This paper, and especially a TV appearance by Wilson, had serious consequences (from a fascinating article by Brian Deer):
Initial investigations appeared to confirm the link but later investigations found that the paper was fatally flawed. Two of the 36 subjects were found to have never received the pertussis. A court case led to a re-examination of cases that had been used, by Professor David Miller, to establish a risk of of neurological complications of 1 in 310,000:
The careers of the doctors making these claims of vaccine damage do not appear to have suffered as a result, though perhaps they should have, given the shoddy work they did and the damage that resulted.
30% of a species is eaten by flying carnivorous bunnies before it reaches breeding age.
A mutation happens.
This mutation makes 90% of the population invisible to FCBs, but makes 5% of the population spontaneously combust before reaching breeding age.
As long as FCBs exist, this is a highly beneficial mutation that is likely to be selected for and persist in the population. If may be hard on the individuals that burn up, but good for the population.
If FCBs were eliminated, the mutation would become a liability for the population and would likely eventually be selected out of the population, were it not for the fact someone had already invented the ExtinguiPen to quell the conflagrations.
APV,
Apologies to those hopelessly bored by this circular discussion, but I’m fascinated by your tenacious grip on your hypothesis, despite the lack of evidence to support it, and the copious evidence that contradicts it.
I’m having trouble finding Richet’s work that showed allergies to ingested food being produced by injection, much less by vaccines. Anyway, we have established that the amount of protein in vaccines is not sufficient to sensitize, though you continue to simply ignore this, merely because it doesn’t fit your beliefs, apparently.
While I’m not a fan of Benveniste’s work, you can easily achieve such a dilution using serial dilutions without requiring every atom in the universe. Homeopaths would be in big trouble otherwise.
How does the publication of a paper describing something implausible support your claim that the utter lack of evidence to support your claims is because no one dares to do the necessary research? If Benveniste can get published by Nature, a brave maverick researcher could get a paper published showing that food allergies are being caused by vaccines, I would think.
It’s not their job to do the studies, it’s the manufacturer’s, I believe.
The FDA told you, “The FDA reviews vaccine composition in its entirety to ensure the safety and efficacy of the vaccine”, so instead of blindly following a series of specifications they look at each vaccine in its entirety to ensure it is safe. I find that reassuring, personally.
There were 94 completely unvaccinated children in that study, enough to provide the statistical power to detect a 4% increase in allergies due to vaccination. A population of 73 should be large enough to detect it at the 95% confidence level (log(0.05)/log(0.96) = 73).
Of course, it was the variable under study. I don’t see your point.
I disagree. I have seen multiple claims from various people that vaccines are the cause of allergies and asthma, and a study like this demonstrates that is very probably not true. Claims about different vaccines and vaccine lots is just special pleading and goal post moving.
No it isn’t. You don’t appear to understand the concept of statistical significance. If you expect fewer than 1 child in an unvaccinated subgroup to have asthma, and zero children in that subgroup actually have asthma you cannot claim this is evidence that vaccines cause asthma. The results are consistent with there being no effect of vaccination on allergies and asthma; that is a justifiable conclusion.
If you think there were not enough children in the study (though statistically speaking there were), why did you present it as evidence that vaccines cause allergies? Why did you focus on the one subgroup that appears to support your claims and ignore the fact that, for example, almost twice as many unvaccinated 11 to 17-year-olds had allergic rhinoconjunctivitis as compared to vaccinated children of the same age? None of these results are significant, and cherry-picking just the subgroups that appear to support your argument demonstrates that you are not even attempting to make a legitimate argument.
It depends if the defense against parasitic infection it confers is a greater survival advantage, as doug’s analogy demonstrates.
As I have repeatedly pointed out but you continue to ignore, it is not 1 in 13 kids, it’s more like 1% with serious food allergies. There is no evidence that genetic susceptibility to allergy has increased at all, it is more likely that environmental factors, such as dietary changes and fewer infections, are at play, if the number of cases has really increased at all, which is debatable. We are better at identifying allergies than we used to be, and still there are serious problems with cases of anaphylaxis being misdiagnosed, and with other disorders being misdiagnosed as food allergy. As this study points out:
We also know that the majority of people who believe they have food allergies are found not to when they are presented with a double-blind placebo-controlled food challenge.
Do you really not see that your claim, that food allergies must be caused by vaccines because if it was a natural occurrence evolution would have eliminated it, is unsupportable? There are hundreds or perhaps thousands of serious genetic disorders that have not been eliminated by evolution. In equatorial Africa between 10% and 40% of people carry the sickle cell trait and 2% of children in Nigeria have sickle cell anemia. The case of sickle cell trait protects against malaria while atopy protects against parasitic infection.
@APV
To continue on the evolution front, in addition to what doug and Krebiozen have pointed out (i.e., increased risk of allergy comes along with increased survival vs. some other more dangerous thing), severe allergy may not be selected against in cases where the allergy does not manifest as anaphylaxis until post-reproductive age or where the trait is recessive and only manifests in a certain percentage of the population. In the most simplistic format, if you have two parents that carry the gene and they have 4 kids, you’d see 1 kid with no allergy, 1 kid with anaphylaxis-level food allergies, and 2 kids that carry the genes but may or may not display allergy. Those two kids grow up, have kids, and pass along the gene. Now, the genetics of allergy susceptibility is, I’d wager, far more complex than just one or two genes. In short, there isn’t anything selecting against that gene (or genes) since it does not have a significant negative impact on reproduction at the population level.
Where are the studies?
You mean these?
https://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf
Perhaps you could be a little more quantitative than “food-like.” What order of magnitude in terms of CCID₅₀?
@APV, just as a matter of curiosity, have you ever met a chef? I have a friend who was a chef for years. He has numerous little scars on his left hand where the knife slipped while he was cutting, chopping, or peeling. I’m pretty sure that, no matter how carefully you cleaned up a cut like that, at least 50ng of protein would remain in the wound. Why don’t we see careless chefs and careless cooks keeling over every day from anaphylaxis from eating the same foods that they chop, cook, or peel?
Continuing my futile reply to APV,
It isn’t unknown. What is unknown is precisely why one person develops a food allergy when exposed to a food when another person doesn’t, and why even the same person sometimes responds to a food with anaphylaxis and sometimes does not. Our immune systems are extraordinarily complex, and I’m amazed that they don’t go wrong more often.
I had found everything I had studied fairly easy to grasp until I was faced with immunology, which humbled me; all those different pathways, complement cascades and interferon made my head hurt (genetics too, later). That was 25 years ago, and the field has grown enormously more complex since. Trying to find a single simple answer to glitches in a complex system like that is impossible, in my opinion.
The reason we haven’t is that there is no good evidence to support doing that. It just isn’t that simple. For example, peanut allergy is more common in the UK than in Israel, even though, “peanut is introduced earlier and is eaten more frequently and in larger quantities in Israel than in the UK”.
Or it happens so rarely that advising mothers to avoid potential allergens while breastfeeding would likely do more harm than good. Short of those with a family history of allergy avoiding all potentially allergenic foods, which is clearly impractical and potentially dangerous, what else can we do?
For an engineer you display a worrying lack of distinction between guidelines and specifications. Do you not see a difference between, “should consider using hydrolyzed infant formulas […] in children at risk for food allergy”, and a concrete claim that a specific product will prevent food allergy?
It’s complex; that doesn’t mean we should jump to unjustified conclusions.
Short of inflicting infectious diseases on young children to prime their immune systems, or banning all potentially allergenic foods, what do you suggest we do? I know you have become fixated on the idea that vaccines cause allergies, but have you considered the possibility that you might be wrong?
They say nothing about allergies causing allergies, only that people with allergies can react to vaccines. Since anaphylactic reactions to vaccines occur after fewer than one in half a million doses, I think vaccine manufacturers have done an excellent job in this regard.
Why does the body need a defense against a harmless protein? Why would it have evolved such a defense? An immune reaction against anything that isn’t a pathogen is a mistake. Our immune systems are generally excellent at recognizing what is a pathogen and what isn’t, but sometimes they screw up, with allergies and autoimmune disorders, for example.
Egg protein is not part of a viral/bacterial infection and egg proteins are not similar to the protein coats of bacteria or viruses.
Yet, as I have pointed out at #621 and you have ignored, mosquito bite allergy is not uncommon. Clearly IgE confers, on average, greater advantages than disadvantages so mammals have retained it despite its shortcomings.
This tortuous logic is bizarre. Food allergy cannot be natural because evolution would have wiped it out, so therefore no one can be allergic to mosquito bites, and when I repeatedly tell you this isn’t true you have to ignore it.
How about finding a hypothesis that fits the facts, not one that requires you to ignore some evidence and twist other evidence for them to fit?
So food proteins are of a new class that humans have never been exposed to before? Nonsense. How is the protein in mosquito saliva of a ‘different class’ (whatever that means) to egg protein? We have a generalized immune response to foreign proteins that is also specifically geared towards proteins that are associated with pathogens. Neither egg protein nor mosquito saliva is part of a pathogen.
Allergic sensitization is nothing to do with viruses, it’s to do with parasites, and they aren’t a new class of proteins, they are proteins that humans and their ancestors have been exposed to for millions of years. When Europeans were exposed to tomatoes and potatoes they didn’t all develop food allergies because their ancestors hadn’t been exposed to them.
I assume that by ‘sensitization’ you mean adaptive immunity.
You seem to be conflating Th1 IgG and Th2 IgE responses. Why would vaccination cause allergy but natural infection would not? It’s a mistake to think we are exposed to less pathogen protein than food protein, as viral infections can result in viremia of more than a million viral particles per ml of blood. That’s a lot of protein.
No they did not, no matter how many times you claim otherwise. They told you that they look at “vaccine composition in its entirety” and make a safety assessment on that basis. Can’t you see that “vaccine composition in its entirety” includes all the ingredients of a vaccine?
Hey, I’ve been in the ED twice for deep-puncture cat bites (and not promptly in either case). Is there somebody I can complain to about my missing anaphylaxis?
After all,
I’ve been in the ED twice for deep-puncture cat bites
Luxury! My domestic-tiger scars, let me show them!
If only there were a disease that could selectively screw up production of IgG – bear with me here – and, say, pathogenically expressed the same protein that some other disease that is commonly vaccinated against also targeted for cell entry, then in this strange world, maybe it would occur to somebody to actually try to take advantage of the grossly attenuated immune memory and reintroduce massive amounts of a weakened form of that other disease to see if it would go to town on the first one.
I know, this is krraaayzee talk, but that there would be a sure-fire recipe for anaphylaxis.
Right?
LW #769,
May be chefs do have a higher food allergy rate compared to the general population.
Food proteins injected into children are often injected with aluminum as an adjuvant that boosts IgE synthesis.
Not something chefs face.
May be this chef was cutting garlic when she cut her finger …
http://www.chefreinvented.com/2009/04/warning-rant-just-ahead.html
Oh, I’ve got plenty of scars of that type. These incidents were just the real keepers.
I take it that you’ve “forgotten” catastrophically losing the Battle of Polysorbate 80.
Narad #768,
“Perhaps you could be a little more quantitative than “food-like.” What order of magnitude in terms of CCID₅₀?”
Vaccines injected into babies have no spec.
“poorly hydrolyzed gelatin” in vaccines are causing anaphylaxis.
“very trace milk protein” in DPT is causing anaphylaxis.
http://www.medpagetoday.com/MeetingCoverage/AAAAI/25520
And you want me to be little more quantitative in a blog discussion?
How about as much viral protein as the amount of egg protein present in a veggie burger pattie?
Just to add my two cents worth to the horse mince this argument has become:
Water allergy exists. It’s very rare, but it has been recorded. Sufferers can drink water (obviously), but if water comes into contact with their skin, they have a full blown allergic reaction.
Another story about contact allergy: my mother likes to make potato bakes. For some time she made them with madumbis, which is a tuber indigenous to Africa. But after a while, she stopped. To prep the madumbis we had to scrub them in a sink. After a few minutes of scrubbing, we would have very itchy hands. Both my mother and I have a contact allergy to something in the skin.
I would like to know how APV thinks madumbi compounds wound up in vaccines.
APV, I’m going to repeat what has been said to you several times already.
Your hypothesis is that compounds in vaccines cause sensitisation, and from there lead to full blown allergies. Nothing you have yet said rises to the standard of proof.
Narad #776,
“I take it that you’ve “forgotten” catastrophically losing the Battle of Polysorbate 80.”
That may be your view … The bottom line is there is no spec. for the purity of Polysorbate 80 (w.r.t allergens) used in vaccines.
I’ll be very happy to be corrected.
Julian Frost 778#,
I have written many times that vaccines are A cause of allergy.
I have never claimed that vaccines are the cause for all allergies.
And further, we are mainly talking about Type I hypersensitivity IgE mediated allergies. Water allergy would not fall into that category.
This is a non sequitur.
Please explain in detail how you arrived at that calculation. Don’t forget to state what “the amount of egg protein present in a veggie burger pattie,” why you selected an entire pattie, and the mass of a Standard Veggie Burger.
Or skip the spluttering horseshіt and answer the actual question, whatever.
No, the “bottom line” is that you don’t know what the fυck you’re talking about. Remember when you revealed bizarrely assuming that “fatty acid residues” means “food allergens”?
Julian Frost #779,
“Your hypothesis is that compounds in vaccines cause sensitisation, and from there lead to full blown allergies. Nothing you have yet said rises to the standard of proof.”
First, it is not my hypothesis. It is Charles Richet’s Nobel Prize winning finding. Vaccines causing sensitization and full blown allergies has been proven here:
Kuno-Sakai H, Kimura M. Removal of gelatin from live vaccines and DTaP-an ultimate solution for vaccine-related gelatin allergy.Biologicals 2003;31:245-9.
It was pointed out that some people in Japan may have had a predisposition for sensitization.
Similarly, I think many of us agree that there is a predisposition in our kids to synthesize IgE (due to hygiene, c-section, etc.).
I don’t think a proof is going to come from an engineer on a blog discussion. My point is, why is no one investigating such solid evidence pointing to vaccines being the cause of food allergies, especially when there is officially no known cause for the food allergy epidemic?
Perhaps this will help.
BTW, how do vaccines and/or arthropods specifically cause FDEIA?
We know that an amount of tens of billions of nanograms of intravenously administered bovine gelatin is tolerated by many people. We know that intact egg albumin on the order of 100 ng/mL can be found in the serum of infants fed egg white. Clearly not everyone develops acute sensitivity from foreign proteins.
If a food protein in vaccine can cause sensitization in an individual, in the absence of sensitization by vaccine is sensitization of the person through ingestion of the protein evitable? Unless the answer is “always” or “with very rare exception”, worrying about the protein in vaccines is something of a fool’s errand from that point of view.
@APV:
I think you misunderstand. It’s no mystery how people who are genetically predisposed to food allergies can become sensitized to them — all they have to do is come in contact with the allergen. What is a mystery is why not 100% of all predisposed people end up developing the allergy after exposure, and why some allergies tend to be grown out of, while others get worse with age.
Narad #786,
“BTW, how do vaccines and/or arthropods specifically cause FDEIA?”
I don’t know. If my speculation is worth anything …
Tick bites cause red meat allergy. Red meat allergy is a delayed reaction. As Krebiozen wrote, some allergens may need to be processed before they can elicit a reaction.
Vaccines are a general IgE/IgG sensitization mechanism.
Without knowing what all go into vaccines, it is not possible to list all the problems they can cause.
APV –
Just to be clear: you’re not drawing the conclusion that food proteins in vaccines contribute to the food allergy epidemic, just that you’d like that hypothesis thoroughly investigated, because as an engineer, you know there has not been enough solid evidence collected to prove that hypothesis to your satisfaction.
Right?
@APV – first, Merry Christmas. I wished it to regular commenters on another thread. I am glad that you are so attached to your theory – at least I get to watch Krebiozen do his patient best to explain a very complicated topic to you.
I am admitting right now – I do not know what type of genetic inheritance pattern there is in allergies. I know that my father had more than thirty that had some level of reaction in testing, and that I and my son both deal with allergies. I know it doesn’t surprise me.
I do know a little, though, about another hereditary disorder in my family that seemed very uncommon when my father was diagnosed: dominant hereditary spinicerebellar ataxia (type 1 in this case). My father’s father, the suspected carrier, died in his 50s with no obvious symptoms. My father and his sister both had it. Two of the offspring from the next generation have been tested. One was negative, the other positive. The other three haven’t been tested yet.
When you start looking, though, you can find internet support groups, etc., that, with the incidence already so frequent in your own family, seem to make it look like the disease is absolutely exploding to epidemic proportions. Some speculate that our environment has caused this. Since this specific illness includes “anticipation” in most generations at onset, it is just as likely that this genetic anomaly has been building across generations until it was finally bad enough to do some damage.
You have to be careful when approaching topics like medicine, because it is so easy to have your own biases color how you approach the topic. It gets even worse when there are alternative practitioners out there using kinesiology and pulse tests to test for allergy, sometimes without even actually exposing a patient to the allergen directly.
Regulars here who have a much greater understanding of immunity have been doing their best to get you to look beyond the theory you have built that is colored by your own experience so you can see places where your assertions are implausible.
In things like adjuvants and other things in the vaccine, some have been tested for tolerance and clearance by the human body, and there is an agreed upon tolerated dose. The dose makes the poison.
Grateful for all the good stuff I have been reading. Now I want to find textbooks on the immune system!
justthestats #788,
“It’s no mystery how people who are genetically predisposed to food allergies can become sensitized to them.”
A normal healthy person can say, eat eggs without being sensitized. Same person can be sensitized if the egg protein is injected. The key point is, the digestive tract is designed to handle eggs without getting sensitized. The body is not designed to handle egg (or any food) protein being injected into it.
” all they have to do is come in contact with the allergen.”
“Coming in contact with allergen” is too broad. Sensitization requires allergens to come into contact with specific locations in the body where sensitization can occur.
“What is a mystery is why not 100% of all predisposed people end up developing the allergy after exposure,”
Predisposition is not black and white. Allergen quantity in vaccines also vary. It might also depend on if you drank cocoa before your vaccine …
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22342543
” and why some allergies tend to be grown out of, while others get worse with age.”
Whether you grow out or not is a complex question. But if you keep getting vaccines, which act as allergy booster shots, I don’t see how that can help …
But they must, right?
By all means, let’s see.
And only tick bites?
Irrespective of ticks, correct? If not, why?
Wouldn’t exercise-induced anaphylaxis, much less EIA modulo food, have been Darwinned right the fυck out from the get-go?
I take it that you completely failed to understand this.
Is there any particular clutch of your greatest banana-peel performances that you’re attempting to gather together for this K-Tel moment?
OccamsLaser #790,
“Just to be clear: you’re not drawing the conclusion that food proteins in vaccines contribute to the food allergy epidemic, just that you’d like that hypothesis thoroughly investigated, because as an engineer, you know there has not been enough solid evidence collected to prove that hypothesis to your satisfaction.”
I am convinced that food proteins in vaccines contribute to the food allergy epidemic. But that means we have to fix the vaccines. As we have seen on this discussion, not everyone is convinced. So, I would like the medical establishment to perform whatever investigation is needed to convince themselves. Right now, this angle is not being investigated at all.
Researchers have already called for the removal of gelatin and casein. The FDA has done nothing.
The FDA should:
Remove food proteins from vaccines.
OR
If it is not convinced, perform the investigations needed to make the decision.
The FDA is doing nothing. That’s the problem.
Please clarify the boundary between “the digestive tract” and “the body.”
Oh, and…
You left out the mosquitoes.
One point of clarification, APV:
Of those contained in your 160 comments on this thread, is there any explicit assertion that you concede to have been falsified per se?
Where, exactly, are these “locations”?
Did you ever get around to stating what kind of engineer you are?
doug #787,
“We know that an amount of tens of billions of nanograms of intravenously administered bovine gelatin is tolerated by many people.”
Must be hydrolyzed gelatin. There is still risk of sensitization. There is a warning about anaphylaxis if allergic to gelatin.
“We know that intact egg albumin on the order of 100 ng/mL can be found in the serum of infants fed egg white.”
Reference please.
Narad #797,
Yes, I asserted that human breast milk is free of allergen based on the understanding that intact proteins are not absorbed into the blood. You proved me wrong. I have now learned that there is another transport mechanism from gut to breast milk.
Thank you for the education.
Narad, #799,
If it matters … electronics.
Narad #771,
APV wrote:
“Charles Richet demonstrated a 100 years ago that any protein injected into the body will result in sensitization. Subsequent exposure to the same protein will cause anaphylaxis.”
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/1913/richet-lecture.html
“We are so constituted that we can never receive other proteins into the blood than those that have been modified by digestive juices. Every time alien protein penetrates by effraction, the organism suffers and becomes resistant.”
Mrs Woo #791,
Thanks for the wishes …
“In things like adjuvants and other things in the vaccine, some have been tested for tolerance and clearance by the human body, and there is an agreed upon tolerated dose. The dose makes the poison.”
Why only some have been tested? Since the dose makes the poison, every vaccine component must have a safe dose specified/tested/enforced. Do you agree?
Why is the FDA refusing to do this?
As I wrote in #656, vaccine trials are shoddy and cannot ensure safety.
Narad
Dunning-Kruger Engineer?
It is thoroughly unclear to me how there can be “another” when the original assertion was that there aren’t any.
Could you cite a specific refusal to cater to your specific whims?
“May be chefs do have a higher food allergy rate compared to the general population.”
Yet another ad hoc hypothesis added to the already teetering pile. Yet another ad hoc hypothesis for which absolutely no evidence has been presented.
Speaking of evolution, in the good old days before vaccines — and supermarkets, and bandaids, and eating utensils — it must have been common for our ancestors to handle food with scratched-up hands; to butcher a kill and cut themselves in the process; to get stuck by thorns while picking berries: there would be all kinds of ways to introduce foreign proteins under the skin a lot more effectively than hypothetical pollen grains introduced by mosquitos. So we’ve adapted to that by APV’s reasoning.
APV:
To repeat Krebiozen @765:
And as for:
You have posted this before and it was pointed out that it didn’t prove that the vaccines caused sensitisation. It was far more likely that the individuals had an existing allergy that was discovered when they were injected. Once again, this doesn’t rise to the standard of proof.
“Solid Evidence” and “Food Allergy Epidemic”.
You keep saying those phrases. Somehow I don’t think they mean what you think they mean.
Or maybe she ate some.
Aluminum is the 3rd most abundant element in the earth’s crust, so everything we eat and drink contains aluminum. Dry garlic contains about 14 mg aluminum per kilo, with vaccines containing less than 0.5 mg per dose. Maybe that’s enough aluminum to act as an adjuvant in some people. Or maybe there was some soil in the garlic – soil can comprise up to 10% aluminum, so any injury that has any soil in it will be aluminum adjuvanted.
Richet wrote:
That’s blood and plasma transfusions out of the question then, as well as factor VIII and TPN. Richet, who was a believer in Spiritualism, by the way, did his work a century ago, and we have learned an enormous amount since then. A more contemporary source might be more convincing.
“A normal healthy person can say, eat eggs without being sensitized. Same person can be sensitized if the egg protein is injected. The key point is, the digestive tract is designed to handle eggs without getting sensitized. The body is not designed to handle egg (or any food) protein being injected into it.”
And yet I, as a normal, healthy individual, developed an allergy to mushrooms when I was 19. I’d been eating them all my life up until that point.
I can guarantee you I wasn’t injected with any mushroom proteins.
“Is there any particular clutch of your greatest banana-peel performances that you’re attempting to gather together for this K-Tel moment?”
Ahhh, Narad, the gift that keeps on giving! 😀
May you and the rest of the SBM-literate commenters have a wonderful holiday of whatever denomination you choose!
Scotty Nuke #813
Until you mentioned it, I had blissfully missed Narad’s K-Tel reference.
Now that I have Billy don’t be a Hero (Bo Donaldson and the Haywoods if any one cares) and the Patty Stacker commercial stuck in my head simultaneously, I am definitely not having a wonderful holiday.
Richet:
Gardner, 1988:
Yet another ad hoc hypothesis added to the already teetering pile.
An Epicycle is not an epinephrine-administering bicycle.
Introducing ‘Ron’; The first man ever to become allergic to an entire Anglican Cathederal…
APV:
Thank you for more clearly explaining that whether vaccines have caused the “allergy epidemic” that you claim exists is an open question and therefore you advocate that the hypothesis be investigated, and also for confessing that, despite the current absence of the evidence that such studies could produce, you have already drawn a conclusion based on a preconceived notion that you admit you hold.
I appreciate that you are slowly opening up enough to admit that there is insufficient scientific evidence for an intelligent, rational person, like a typical engineer, to draw any conclusion on this issue without studies being performed. It takes a big person to confess that your position is not based on sufficient evidence, and that, therefore, you have chosen to believe a particular hypothesis because it pleases you to do so, presumably because of biases that you are unable to neutralize.
In many of your posts, you make it clear that the hypothesis that the “allergy epidemic” is caused by vaccines is not supported by scientific evidence; for example, you have repeatedly made a point of lamenting that there is an absence of studies that might provide the needed evidence, one way or another, to address the question.
The fact that, on the one hand, you explicitly state that there is insufficient evidence to support the hypothesis, and on the other hand, you confess to having already taken a position on the accuracy of that hypothesis despite the absence of supporting evidence, clearly reveals that you are incapable of forming a thoughtful, objective, and accurate opinion on the question at hand. That’s sad, though I understand that your own emotions must be extremely strong to so overwhelm your engineering training and lead you down the path of such deeply unscientific thinking. That must be difficult.
I will also reiterate that I find it sad that you think so little of your own moral strength that were you a researcher in the field, you would be so frightened of impairing your career path that you would refuse to participate in a study that might yield a lifesaving breakthrough for tens of thousands of people. Though such a self-judgment does reveal a great deal about your intellectual honesty, unfortunately.
Looks like another study that people would like to ignore?
http://www.sardogs.com/health_purdue_vaccination_study.htm
*blink*
So, autoimmunity in dogs is actually IgE mediated?
WTF is wrong with you? Seriously: explain, in detail, the “thought” process that led to this random G—le expedition and your weirdly displaying your catch here.
Krebiozen 811#,
“That’s blood and plasma transfusions out of the question then, as well as factor VIII and TPN. Richet, who was a believer in Spiritualism, by the way, did his work a century ago, and we have learned an enormous amount since then.”
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/1913/richet-lecture.html
“While on the subject of negative experiments, I wish to say a word on what I call homogenic anaphylaxis. The aim was to discover if the injection into an animal of blood from another subject of the same species, provokes a stronger reaction at the second injection than at the first, always given the same source for the transfusion in both cases.
Here again the results were absolutely nil. A dog A was injected with 70 gram per kilo of the blood of another dog B. Not much happened. A month later, the same dog A that had been treated was given a further injection of 70 gram per kilo of blood from the same transfusion source dog B. No symptom was observed. It seems thus there is no such thing as homogenic anaphylaxis, and the blood of one species of animal injected into an animal of the same kind is harmless both at the first and at the second injection.”
“A more contemporary source might be more convincing.”
The only information you have provided to show the quantity of ovalbumin in today’s vaccines is safe, is based on a >100 year old article and involves assumptions of equivalence between “unpurified mixed proteins of egg-white” and ovalbumin present in current day vaccines.
A more contemporary source might be more convincing?
So, basically, you’re fυcked both coming and going. Well played.
APV:
You have made the specific, unqualified assertion that healthy, non-allergic people silently developing food allergies weeks after a vaccination is a huge problem. You seem to acknowledge that there is no evidence whatsoever to support this assertion; even you don’t bother to claim there is a study that supports this claim. Yet, you have simply decided that you would like it to be a fact, and then you believe it, and state it as fact. I must be frank; that’s a rather frightening way for an engineer to reason. I suggest you take a cold, hard look at the path you are on, and how starkly it conflicts with the tenets of your profession, which requires a dispassionate analysis of facts. It’s really concerning to witness this sort of mental process playing out in public.
You have also specifically stated without qualification and as a fact that the Polysorbate 80 used in vaccines contains vegetable oils. You have also stated that there is no evidence for this claim, but you not only believe it nonetheless, you seem to think that because you believe it — despite its not being a fact — your belief somehow converts it into a fact, allowing you to then state it as a fact. That sort of thinking indicates something defective in the thinker.
Have you, in recent years, noticed in yourself a tendency towards this sort of reality-distorting belief-forming, perhaps coinciding with a high level of stress? Ever considered talking to someone about it?
Another question: Do you believe that it has been demonstrated that autism is the result of an allergic reaction to a vaccine?
APV:
Another rather worrisome indicator of your fragile grasp on reason is your pattern of falsifying study results and using a particularly dishonest type of distortion when trying to produce evidence for the position that you already decided you wanted to hold.
One example is your assertion that a particular study shows that unvaccinated children have zero incidence of asthma. Earlier, we examined your behavior whereby you, probably due to some emotional stress, invert the reasoning process by choosing a position first, then seeking evidence for it. That could be written off to a highly-stressed mental and/or emotional condition, or possibly some other psychological issue, while still being viewed as essentially sincere — the actions of a desperate mind, perhaps. But when you falsify study conclusions so flagrantly, as when you say that a study shows that unvaccinated children have zero incidence of asthma, there really is no escaping the conclusion that you are dishonest. You might want to consider the situation you find yourself in that has driven you to these measures to try to generate support for your preconceived notions, and how deeply unhealthy such a mode of thinking must be.
Another distressing syndrome that you are exhibiting is also based in a desperate mindset that pushes you into giving in to the temptation to be dishonest in order to attempt to support your position. You repeatedly lie about scientific findings by changing their character from possibilities — often very tiny ones — to certainties. You do this, for example, when you make such dishonest and misleading statements as, “injecting proteins into mammals will cause them to develop an allergy.” Your (clearly intentional) failure to state that this effect is not a certainty regardless of the various parameters involved reveals that you are, fundamentally, frightened of being truthful. The same principle applies to your dangerous flat assertion that Polysorbate 80 contains vegetable oils. You demonstrate that you are fully aware that these statements are dishonest. Yet you have apparently abandoned your integrity in a misguided and quite disturbing effort to frighten ignorant readers. I again ask that you engage in some frank self-examination, as this sort of inexcusable behavior tends to spiral downward, in my observation, and could lead to a quite sad — or sadder — situation. Think about it.
APV,
Pointing out that you have misunderstood or misinterpreted studies is not the same as ignoring them
Like Narad I’m curious to know why you thought that study relevant when it found:
Missed another closing tag. Apologies.
This would be way better with interuniversal Teichmüller theory. Or maybe that’s MSimon.
#298:
#613:
Why?
^ That’s a
demandquestion, not an “answer,” BTW.Krebiozen, #825,
“Like Narad I’m curious to know why you thought that study relevant when it found:”
It shows numerous vaccine components causing antibody synthesis and autoantibody synthesis. Unlike ovalbumin, vaccine package inserts do not even specify the quantity present for these components (human lung fibroblasts, pancreatic digests, BSA, etc.). Where are the safety studies and specifications before they started injecting these into babies?
The study also shows:
“There was a marked increase of autoantibodies to the skeletal muscle proteins, myoglobin and myosin, in both groups of dogs. The reason for the appearance of these antibodies is uncertain, but it may be the result of the frequent blood sampling of the dogs. The dogs were bled five times following each vaccination, and some tissue trauma was unavoidable.”
I’d like to draw attention to the discussion we had regarding tropomyosin. 30-40 injections/kid seems like a lot of tissue trauma to me.
“That was one of the sources that you initially cited to support your claims! I merely pointed out that when examined closely it doesn’t support your hypothesis. You were the one assuming, without any justification at all, that the fractionally crystallized protein was ovalbumin, whereas I looked at Richet’s results with total egg white protein, which we know is 54% ovalbumin, no assumptions necessary.
Since you are the one making the claim that ovalbumin in the quantities present in influenza vaccines causes sensitization, it is up to you to you provide the evidence.”
The Japanese flu/egg allergy study already did.
I think you lost track.
You provided both Anderson/Rosenau and the HG Wells references, not me.
I pointed out the 50 ng egg albumin in Anderson et. al.
You brought up HG Wells and used the “unpurified mixed protein numbers” for your calculation instead. You have ever since used that calculation to claim the quantity of ovalbumin in flu vaccines is safe.
“To turn it around, prove to me that ovalbumin in vaccines does not protect against the development of egg allergy.”
The Japanese flu/egg was done because they suspected flu vaccines were causing egg allergy, not because it was offering a worrisome amount of protection against egg allergy.
If vaccines were protecting our kids against food allergies, we would not be having this discussion.
My understanding is that food exposure to GI mucosa is supposed to help produce tolerance and food exposure to serum produces allergy. Apparently, you think the opposite …
Perhaps we should ingest our vaccines and inject our foods?
forgot the link
@APV: I may be wrong (those wiser, please correct me if I am), but some vaccine ingredients listed are on the label because those items are used during vaccine manufacture and it is reasonably conceivable that very minute amounts can be left in the final product. Since we know anaphylaxis for those with existing allergies is a risk, all possible substances that might be in the vaccine, even in trace amounts are listed to allow the doctor to be sure the patient has informed choice.
Since you were so hung up on Richet I went and looked him up. When I saw that his research was around a century old, I wondered how you could be so sure that later research didn’t disprove some hypotheses. It is a common thing when people have alternative theories – they share them on the internet with old research (Nobel prize winners especially popular) and act as though scientific theories remain static as research grows.
I am not as educated as most here, though I love learning. My very bright RN daughter-in-law gave us “Essential Oil First Aid Kit” and a book on common essential oil recipes, so even medically educated are not immune (Mr Woo was thrilled, so maybe it was aimed at what he would appreciate and they assumed that I agreed when they picked out the gift).
I have noticed a lot of things shared as 100% true in alternative medicine were at one time operating theories that were discarded as our working knowledge grew. It doesn’t mean the person doing early research did not discover a new major breakthrough, it just means it was the beginning of knowledge, and other researchers learned what they theorized correctly and what they got wrong.
Holding on to disproven theories or implausible ideas doesn’t make the believer any closer to the truth. It just makes them less likely to find the right answer.
APV seems to have written elsewhere:
“A typical flu shot contains 15 mcg of hemagglutinin (HA) protein per virus type and 0.5 mcg of ovalbumin protein. About 60% of US children who receive a flu shot get sensitized to the HA protein. The result is the immune system attacks HA proteins on subsequent exposure giving protection against the flu virus. One can expect 60/(15/0.5)=2% of those who receive the flu shot to get
sensitized to the ovalbumin protein.”
APV, was someone impersonating you, or did you actually write that formula for determining the percentage of individuals who will be become sensitized to a substance based on the effectiveness of the flu vaccine and a ratio between the amounts of the two proteins under examination?
Thanks.
APV seems to have written elsewhere,
“Increasing vaccinations correlate with increasing asthma, Type I diabetes, ulcerative colitis and of course food allergies [among those who have been vaccinated, but there has been no such increase among those who have not been vaccinated].”
APV, if you did write that, and it wasn’t someone impersonating you, could you supply a citation that supports your statement?
Thanks.
APV,
Yes they do, for example this MMR vaccine pack insert, which states the amount of recombinant human albumin and fetal bovine serum (the same as BSA, more or less) it contains.
No vaccine contains whole human lung fibroblasts, though a diploid human cell culture dating back to the 1960s is used to grow some viruses for vaccines. Safety studies have found, “no credible association of reactions to the HDCS substrate or a hypothetical contaminant derived from it”. Since the cells are filtered out of the vaccine, there should be only tiny traces of it left anyway.
No it didn’t. It showed a slight increase in anti-egg IgE which is not the same thing as sensitization. The subjects with the highest anti-egg IgE at the start of the study were specifically stated not to suffer from egg allergy. How can you assume that those who showed a small increase in sIgE were sensitized when those with similar sIgE were not?
More anon….
APV:
I want to bring to your attention another example of your dishonesty, in hopes that you will have the courage to engage in some valuable self-examination.
You have stated, as a matter of fact, that EMD Millipore’s Polysorbate 80 has maize and wheat in it. Elsewhere, you have admitted that you don’t know whether it does or not.
There’s really no nice way to say it; you’re lying. I understand that you are probably consumed with emotions — frustration, helplessness, anger — due to your personal situation. However, people of integrity do not resort to lying in situations like yours, and you should be ashamed of yourself. By discarding your integrity, you are really not helping yourself or your family, though it might feel as though you are. What you are doing when you lie like that is destroying your credibility, and fatally crippling your ability to be taken seriously by intelligent people of character, among whose ranks you cannot count yourself, sadly.
Please take some time to ponder why you have decided that you must lie in order to pursue your goals. If you do not take some sort of action to improve your character, this kind of behavior will become habitual (if it is not already), with wide-ranging consequences. Are you already having problems at work?
APV:
Assuming that was you who referred to this, could you provide the name of the company and contact individual who told you they have palm oil and coconut oil in their Polysorbate 80?
Thanks.
APV:
Why do you force your children to get vaccinations if you believe they cause autism due to the mechanism of injection alone?
Wow, this thread reads like the Moon cheese argument. APV goes on endlessly about his pet hypothesis and is met with reasoned and rather polite responses by people who know what they are talking about (especially Krebs– props.). This APV doesn’t understand the difference between IgG, IgE, and nonspecific mast cell degranulation. He seems oblivious to immunology basics– antigen presenting, class switching, tolerance, and the mucosal immune response. He doesn’t know the difference between an sf9 cell and a moth, nor the likely antigenic differences between a human kidney cell and a different human (not that either matters because there are no cells in vaccines). (Ever purify a protein, dude?) And he keeps reiterating the same tired arguments.
I often prescribe intravenous polysorbate 80 (wrapped around docetaxel) at much higher doses than APV is concerned about. It can, of course, cause anaphalactoid reactions, which are mediated by direct mast cell degranulation, not by a specific antigen or IgE. In fact patients who react can be rechallenged with the same drug with premedication and lower infusion rates.. something that would not be done in the case of true IgE-mediated anaphalaxis.
APV: I’d suggest you start by reading Janeway (assuming you have the prerequisite biology education to understand a grad-level immunology text).
CPD/Vinucube:
Why would you publicly state as a fact that vaccine makers produce vaccines with peanut oil proteins in them when you admit that you do not have evidence that this is true? Do you realize how irresponsible — and dishonest — you are being when you engage in this sort of fabrication?
OccamsLaser #837,
Was in #154, here it is again.
http://www.emdmillipore.com/US/en/product/Tween%C2%AE-80-%28Polysorbate%29,MDA_CHEM-817061#documentation
OccamsLaser #838,
[email protected]
VPD/Vinucube/Vinu:
You wrote,
“Re.Mercury: If you break a compact fluorescent lamp (CFL) in your house, you are supposed to evacuate the house”
False.
Why do you feel that you are justified in engaging in this sort of fabrication? Does some part of you realize that if you stuck to the truth, you would be unable to make a compelling case for your position, so you are compelled to embellish information?
OccamsLaser #835,
I provided this back in #84 … it has the citations.
https://foodallergycauses.wordpress.com/
VPD/Vinucube/Vinu:
This is so sad. Your dishonesty is more flagrant than I had thought.
I said @837,
“I want to bring to your attention another example of your dishonesty, in hopes that you will have the courage to engage in some valuable self-examination.
You have stated, as a matter of fact, that EMD Millipore’s Polysorbate 80 has maize and wheat in it. Elsewhere, you have admitted that you don’t know whether it does or not.
There’s really no nice way to say it; you’re lying.”
You responded @842 with your proof of your claim that EMD Millipore’s Polysorbate 80 has maize and wheat in it:
“Was in #154, here it is again.
http://www.emdmillipore.com/US/en/product/Tween%C2%AE-80-%28Polysorbate%29,MDA_CHEM-817061#documentation”
Maybe you crossed your fingers and closed your eyes and wished, hope against hope, that no one would bother to check your information, and that we would just believe that EMD Millipore’s allergen sheet would prove your claim that their Polysorbate 80 contains wheat and maize.
You were wrong.
Here’s what your own link says, and this is a direct quotation:
“The following materials are used as raw material but are not present in the final product: Maize, Wheat”
Your dishonesty is breathtaking. At least anyone who bothers to read this long thread will discover that you are a liar.
APV/Vinucube/VinuA:
I asked for a specific citation for the following claim that you made:
“Increasing vaccinations correlate with increasing asthma, Type I diabetes, ulcerative colitis and of course food allergies [among those who have been vaccinated, but there has been no such increase among those who have not been vaccinated].”
You evaded, and provided only a link to a blog.
Please provide a specific citation that demonstrates that “Increasing vaccinations correlate with increasing asthma, Type I diabetes, ulcerative colitis and of course food allergies [among those who have been vaccinated, but there has been no such increase among those who have not been vaccinated].”
MadisonMD, #840,
It is my expectation that studies would be conducted for all vaccine excipients to determine safe quantities that can be present. I expect the results to be used to create specifications and test methods that are enforced.
It is unprofessional to manufacture products without specifications and in the case of vaccines, extremely dangerous.
Perhaps you can explain the lack of safety studies and specifications?
Researchers have called for the removal of gelatin and casein from vaccines. Gelatin and casein in vaccines have continued to cause anaphylaxis. As discussed before, if there is enough protein to cause anaphylaxis, there is more than enough protein to cause sensitization. Perhaps you can explain why the FDA has done nothing about this?
OccamsLaser #846,
And, you left out what it says after that:
“The following materials are used as raw material but are not present in the final
product: Maize, Wheat
We point out that we do not perform any testing on allergens in the above-mentioned
product.”
Just like the FDA. They don’t test it for safety but they know it’s safe.
OccamsLaser #844,
You believe the FDA but you don’t believe the EPA …?
http://www2.epa.gov/cfl/cleaning-broken-cfl
OccamsLaser #839,
“Why do you force your children to get vaccinations if you believe they cause autism due to the mechanism of injection alone?”
Fantastic question. Every vaccination decision is an agonizing decision between vaccine-preventable deadly diseases and vaccine-induced deadly diseases. Parents should never ever have to face such a choice. Does that explain why I am fighting so hard for safer vaccines?
Mrs Woo #833,
Richet’s anaphylaxis is a fundamental discovery that has been proven over and over to this day. Just because we have iPhones today does not mean the fundamentals of electricity have changed in a 100 years. You could be electrocuted today just as badly as you would have been a century ago.
Obviously, we have made huge discoveries in immunology since Richet but the fundamental concepts he discovered are unchanged.
Ignoring Richet’s findings is therefore equally dangerous.
APV/Vinu A:
You’re lying.
You stated that EMD Millipore’s Polysorbate 80 has wheat and maize in it, and you cited their allergen sheet as your evidence for that claim. That allergen sheet says that it does NOT contain wheat or maize. You lied.
It really is amazing how dishonest you are.
APV/Vinu A.:
You wrote,
“Re.Mercury: If you break a compact fluorescent lamp (CFL) in your house, you are supposed to evacuate the house”
I exposed this claim as false.
You now provide a link to the EPA that proves your claim was false.
Once again, you seem to think — or hope — that no one will check your citations and discover how dishonest you are. But you’re wrong.
You also fabricate a position and attribute it to me when you write, “you believe the FDA but you don’t believe the EPA?” Please provide a quotation of mine that supports your characterization of my position, or retract it. Like a person with integrity would.
APV/Vinu:
“Does that explain why I am fighting so hard for safer vaccines?”
Nothing explains why you lie so much. Except that you are a deeply dishonest person.
doug #831,
It seems to me these children had an underlying condition.
My understanding is that such intact protein should not be absorbed in normal healthy people. I believe Krebiozen wrote the same. The title itself says allergen absorption in FPIES.
OccamsLaser #854,
What exactly have you exposed as false?
So the EPA said “room” and I said “house” and it makes me a fabricator/liar? Perhaps you have photographic memory. I wrote my best recollection of what I had read.
Krebiozen 765#,
“Human basophil degranulation triggered by very dilute antiserum against IgE
Dilution:1 in 1e120 parts! There are not enough atoms in the universe to achieve that dilution. But it did not stop them from publishing it! Another case of eminence vs. evidence ?
While I’m not a fan of Benveniste’s work, you can easily achieve such a dilution using serial dilutions without requiring every atom in the universe. Homeopaths would be in big trouble otherwise.”
No, homeopaths are in big trouble because such dilutions are impossible. At some point in the serial dilution, you have only one molecule left. Further dilution is not possible.
Basically, you are saying dividing 0 by 2 gives you something smaller than 0. It is absurd.
Krebiozen 825#,
“I’m also a little dubious about that paper since they cite Tomljenovic and Shaw as reputable sources which they most definitely are not.”
So what is the deed that earned them their disrepute?
OccamsLaser #834,
Yes, that’s in my blog, what’s your point?
https://foodallergycauses.wordpress.com/
@APV:
Orac has written about Tomljenovic and Shaw before. If you put the name “Tomljenovic” into the search box at the top of the page you’ll get a number of articles written about Orac about their mendacity.
Written BY Orac about their mendacity.
Le sigh.
APV,
You’re right, I’m conflating all the century-old studies. I’ll be more specific, though I don’t think it really matters. You first cited Richet and I pointed out that contemporary studies by Anderson/Rosenau following up his work did not support what you claim. You then quoted a passage from their paper mentioning Wells, falsely claiming that, “they were able to observe sensitization to 50 nanogram ( I/20000000 gram) of egg-white in 1909”, when the quote you provided clearly stated “purified egg-white”.
I gave a link to Wells’ paper that Anderson and Rosenaut referred to, to show you it was actually a protein purified from egg white by three fractional crystallizations, which is not the same thing at all. It’s like claiming that 100 milligrams of apple seeds will kill a human, when actually it is 100 milligrams of cyanide which can be extracted from 300 grams of apple seeds that constitute a fatal dose.
I believe that was you in comment #505.
I have pointed out that the evidence you claimed to support your hypothesis does not support it, yet you keep making the same erroneous claim. Is there something about protein purification you don’t understand?
More importantly, Wells showed how much total egg white protein was necessary to sensitize a guinea pig. We can estimate from this how much ovalbumin would have been required, which is probably an underestimate given the existence of ovomucoid and other proteins. We don’t know what specific proteins Well’s fractional crystallization isolated, you are mistaken in assuming that they were ovalbumin. Once again you twist the evidence to fit your hypothesis.
The historical evidence does not fit your hypothesis, but I would be interested in seeing more recent studies from an era when the structure of different proteins was better understood. There probably is more evidence out there, since the immunological literature is so huge, but I’m not inclined to go hunting for it.
Where did I claim there were any solute molecules left? That wasn’t your initial objection to Benveniste’s paper, you wrote “There are not enough atoms in the universe to achieve that dilution”. That’s not true; in science precision in language is important. You can achieve that dilution, though it is extremely unlikely that even one molecule of the solute remains. You can continue diluting, with the likelihood of a molecule remaining becoming smaller and smaller.
APV/Vinu A:
You wrote @857,
“What exactly have you exposed as false?
So the EPA said ‘room’ and I said ‘house’ and it makes me a fabricator/liar? Perhaps you have photographic memory. I wrote my best recollection of what I had read.”
You have a problem.
The problem is that you have now established a pattern of dishonesty. One of the components of this pattern is that you make what you characterize as mistakes of recall when an falsehood you post is exposed. But the fact that you consistently make such “mistakes” in favor of your own position demonstrates that they are not mistakes at all; they are lies, and they are intentional.
The fact that you are lying is in your own words above. You make the claim that you would have to have a photographic memory to post accurate information for which you yourself are supplying the proof via links. I shouldn’t have to explain that all you need to do when you want to post accurate information from a link is to follow the link and copy what it says. One doesn’t need a photographic memory — nor any memory at all.
Here are other examples of lies you have posted despite being in possession of, and even posting, links that contradict your claims, or despite admitting that you made them up (i.e. “remembered” information that, in fact, doesn’t exist):
– You said that EMD Millipore’s allergen certificate states that the product contains wheat and maize. The allergen certificate — to which you linked — says the exact opposite.
– You said that vaccine makers produce vaccines with peanut oil proteins in them
– You stated that a particular study “shows that unvaccinated children have zero incidence of asthma.” Note the wording. This is a very, very dangerous lie.
– You asserted that “injecting proteins into mammals will cause them to develop an allergy.” Again, note the wording. Here, again, your lack of a photographic memory caused you to use the word “will,” because that’s how you “remembered” the information. You are terribly dishonest, and this sort of scaremongering is disgraceful.
– You have stated as fact that healthy, non-allergic people silently developing food allergies weeks after a vaccination is a huge problem. Your claim that this is in evidence is a frank fabrication; I’m not sure how you will write off this lie as the result of your bad memory.
– You have stated as fact that Increasing vaccinations correlate with increasing asthma, Type I diabetes, ulcerative colitis and of course food allergies among those who have been vaccinated, but there has been no such increase among those who have not been vaccinated, and when pressed for a citation, you only provide a link to your blog, which you claim has the citation somewhere within it. When you are again asked for the specific citation that supports this claim, you become even more evasive, writing, “Yes, that’s in my blog, what’s your point?” and you then supply the blog link again. In case you are unaware of it, evasion is a behavior that you engage in when you are afraid of providing an honest answer, because you are fearful of the consequences of that honest answer. In your case, you predisposition towards dishonesty leads you naturally to engage in evasions such as this, because you have convinced yourself that it is justifiable to be dishonest when pursuing your goals. You are apparently oblivious to the fatal damage you do to your image.
Your fabrication regarding the procedures for reacting to a broken CFL bulb does not have a major impact on your case as a whole. It is simply another example of your near-reflexive dishonesty wherein you distort information in a way that favors you, and your absurd excuse that your memory is imperfect — despite your having in hand the very link upon which you claim your information is based, and which proves you wrong — are clear indicators of how deeply your dishonesty runs.
At the risk of being repetitive, I want to highlight one of the best examples of what a dishonest person you are:
You claimed that the allergen certificate for EMD Millipore’s Polysorbate 80 states that the product contains wheat and maize. The allergen certificate — for which you provided the link — states that the product does not contain wheat or maize. This sort of outrageous lie is bad enough, but the fact that you are too cowardly to simply admit that you lied — or that you “misremembered” — and that you stand by your claim, exposes you as a person devoid of integrity.
This does tie back to your self-assessment that were you a medical researcher, you would be too cowardly to investigate the hypothesis that injections are responsible for the “allergy epidemic” that you say exists. It is becoming clear that you have a very low opinion of yourself. It is also becoming clear that your opinion is accurate.
Vinu:
I asked you to provide the name of the company and contact individual who told you they have palm oil and coconut oil in their Polysorbate 80. You only supplied a general email address. Please provide the name of the individual who told you the product has palm oil and coconut oil in it.
APV/Vinucube/Vinu a:
You wrote elsewhere,
“A typical flu shot contains 15 mcg of hemagglutinin (HA) protein per virus type and 0.5 mcg of ovalbumin protein. About 60% of US children who receive a flu shot get sensitized to the HA protein. The result is the immune system attacks HA proteins on subsequent exposure giving protection against the flu virus. One can expect 60/(15/0.5)=2% of those who receive the flu shot to get
sensitized to the ovalbumin protein.”
Did you post that function for determining the percentage of individuals who will be become sensitized to a substance based on the effectiveness of the flu vaccine and a ratio between the amounts of the two proteins under examination?
OccamsLaser,
My favorite example of APV’s causal approach to veracity is his/her claim that less than 1 mg of polysorbate 80 in vaccines causes asthma, because a sheep’s lungs are damaged when you wash them out with a polysorbate 80 solution. Even when I challenged this this ludicrous claim s/he still continued to defend it, writing:
Since saline and pure water will also cause damage when used to wash out lungs I assume that s/he also believe that saline and water in vaccine cause asthma (which is not lung injury anyway).
S/he even cited a review study as evidence that vaccines cause asthma. When I clicked the link I saw that the review concluded:
Perhaps the most egregious error, as you pointed out, is the vaccinated /unvaccinated study looking at the prevalence of asthma and allergies, of which APV wrote:
A brief perusal of the paper finds that 2 of the unvaccinated children in the study had asthma, and that all results were within the range expected if there is no link between vaccines and asthma or allergies. It’s hard to describe this as anything but a deliberate lie designed to scare parents away from vaccinating their children.
Krebiozen #863,
“but I would be interested in seeing more recent studies from an era when the structure of different proteins was better understood. ”
That is exactly what I was saying. Where are the safety studies performed on the exact formulation of the various egg proteins present in current day vaccines?
“Where did I claim there were any solute molecules left? That wasn’t your initial objection to Benveniste’s paper, you wrote “There are not enough atoms in the universe to achieve that dilution”. That’s not true; in science precision in language is important. You can achieve that dilution, though it is extremely unlikely that even one molecule of the solute remains. You can continue diluting, with the likelihood of a molecule remaining becoming smaller and smaller.”
If there are no solute molecules left, the concentration is defined as 0. Not 1 in 1e120.
When there are no solute molecules left, you can continue diluting? What kind of absurd concept is that?
We are not in the quantum physics domain yet. A molecule either exists in a solution or not. There are no probabilities.
APV, you are practicing medicine as it was in the Middle Ages: Someone comes up with a plausible-sounding explanation, and everyone simply accepts it as true. We deal in evidence-based medicine. We need evidence.
Krebiozen #867,
My blog says:
‘This study shows that unvaccinated children had zero occurrence of asthma compared to 1.8-4.6% for vaccinated children.”
The 1.8 and 4.6% numbers apply to children under 10 and the asthma occurrence reported was indeed 0. Where’s the deliberate lie?
Here’s another deliberate lie to scare parents:
“The strongest evidence in support of a possible association between vaccination and asthma comes from a prospective study of a cohort of children born in 1977 in Christchurch, New Zealand. In that study there was no evidence of asthma after 5 to 10 years of follow-up among 23 children who received neither pertussis nor oral polio vaccine, whereas asthma developed in >20% of 1184 children who had been vaccinated.”
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/439840
Kreb –
Even more egregiously than the example you cite of APV’s dishonesty in this forum with regard to the vaccine/allergy review study is his far grander lie when referring to that same study in other venues, where perhaps he is even less concerned about his claims being scrutinized and exposed. There, he actually made the following representation:
“Unvaccinated children have zero incidence of asthma.”
It is of great concern that someone would be knowingly spreading this sort of flagrantly false information about medicine. As he admits elsewhere, his crusade is all about his own kids, and he seems completely unconcerned about the potential damage to others’ children for which he might be responsible.
Gray Falcon #869,
“We deal in evidence-based medicine. We need evidence.”
Absolutely, please show me evidence that proves the quantities of food allergens present in our vaccines is safe.
APV- Only if you provide me evidence your practice of necromancy isn’t driving up global temperatures.
APV is off his bleeding nut. Probably thinks colloidal silver is a cure all too.
Krebiozen #825,
The Japanese flu/egg study showed increases in anti-ovalbumin IgE which you dismissed because there was no clinical allergy.
Likewise for the auto-antibodies in dogs, you dismissed it since there was no evidence of autoimmune disease.
How do we know these antibodies are harmless? What if there is chronic increase in histamine due to the elevated IgE and the patient continuing to consume egg?
Can there be no ongoing tissue/organ damage that could reduce lifespan due to autoanti-bodies? How can you claim it is harmless?
And what about this?
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1013792#t=articleBackground
OccamsLaser #865,
Phuong Tang. And you never know, I could be lying …
APV/vinucube/Vinu A wrote,
“Here’s another deliberate lie to scare parents:
‘The strongest evidence in support of a possible association between vaccination and asthma comes from a prospective study of a cohort of children born in 1977 in Christchurch, New Zealand. In that study there was no evidence of asthma after 5 to 10 years of follow-up among 23 children who received neither pertussis nor oral polio vaccine, whereas asthma developed in >20% of 1184 children who had been vaccinated.’
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/439840”
You forgot to include the part that came after that:
“The study was limited, however, by the small number of unvaccinated children (n = 23) and uncertainty about differences in medical care utilization between the two groups.”
Actually, I’m quite certain that you didn’t “forget” to include that vital information. You omitted it deliberately, because you’re dishonest, as has been proven here.
Do you wonder what your children will think when they eventually learn what a dishonest person you are? Are you teaching them to lie when it serves their goals, too?
Vinu:
“Phuong Tang. And you never know, I could be lying …”
Unlikely, because lying about your contact’s name doesn’t further your goals. You seem to lie when the truth doesn’t serve your cause.
For example, you stated that EMD Millipore’s allergen certificate stated that their Polysorbate 80 contains wheat and maize. That was a lie you told because it supported your argument.
You don’t seem to realize that when you lie in a way that supports your position, and when you are caught but refuse to admit your lies, you lose all credibility, and that damages your cause. You, personally, are responsible for impairing the overall cause of applying pressure to find out more about children’s allergies, because you are so dishonest, as well as cowardly. Shame on you.
Krebiozen #867,
“It’s hard to describe this as anything but a deliberate lie designed to scare parents away from vaccinating their children.”
1. The FDA is a $4.6 billion federal agency.
2. The CDC is a $6.6 billion federal agency.
3. In my blog site, I provided numerous peer-reviewed published references to support my claims.
Readers can verify for themselves if I am fabricating/lying/misinterpreting/embellishing or whatever else you choose to accuse me of doing next.
4. You are claiming that I am “lying to scare parents”.
5. You have just admitted to the unprecedented level of distrust parents have for the FDA and the CDC, that they will base their vaccination decision on my noname blog site. A level of distrust the FDA and CDC have most definitely earned.
APV, if you deliberately make a statement that you know contradicts reality, you are, by definition, lying. We have proven you a liar, repeatedly. Give it up, you are not the genius you think you are.
“What exactly have you exposed as false?
So the EPA said “room” and I said “house” and it makes me a fabricator/liar? Perhaps you have photographic memory. I wrote my best recollection of what I had read”
You mean you didn’t think of checking your facts before you made a claim, or even read your citation before you posted it? If you’re not serious enough about making a case for your claims to make even the most trivial efforts to ensure that you’re telling the truth, why should anyone waste their time reading your claims?
OccamsLaser #866,
I thought I already said, yes …
Thomas #881,
Unfortunately, I have been unable to meet your high standards.
So you are welcome to stop reading my claims.
APV: High standards? If you think reading the items you post is too hard for you, consider another career.
I suggest you add a disclaimer on all your posts – how about “I made up some or all of this based on things I vaguely remember and wish were true.” You could offer a reward for every true statement someone finds in what you write.
APV/vinucube/Vinu A.:
Are you thus claiming that this is the formula for determining the likelihood of developing an allergy to a protein?
“One can expect [amount of a protein, in mcg/25] of those who receive [an injection with that amount of that protein] to get sensitized to [that protein].”
APV/vinucube/Vinu A. wrote:
“Readers can verify for themselves if I am fabricating/lying/misinterpreting/embellishing or whatever else you choose to accuse me of doing next.”
Right — we’ve already verified that you are fabricating/lying/misinterpreting/embellishing, as has been proven above. Readers will indeed view that proof and conclude that you are dishonest; there is no other conclusion. In fact, even you have not denied that you have lied and stated as facts things for which you do not have evidence, so the case is clear.
For example, you claimed that EMD Millipore’s allergen certificate stated that their Polysorbate 80 contains wheat and maize, but you were lying, as has been proven. This proof is so undeniable, that even you do not deny it.
It is actually quite fascinating to see how a profoundly dishonest person such as you operates. Different liars use different tactics when they are exposed; yours seems to be complete avoidance of the subject. I guess that’s the method you’ve chosen to try to preserve some semblance of self-respect. But eventually, your family will read this thread, and they will learn something very, upsetting about your character, and no amount of self-denial will undo that damage.
APV/vinucube/Vinu wrote;
“In my blog site, I provided numerous peer-reviewed published references to support my claims.”
You’re lying. Your blog site contains zero peer-reviewed published references that support the following claims you’ve made:
– EMD Millipore’s allergen certificate stated that their Polysorbate 80 contains wheat and maize
– Vaccines contain peanut oil proteins
– Healthy, non-allergic people silently developing food allergies weeks after a vaccination is a huge problem
– The Polysorbate 80 used in vaccines contains vegetable oils
– Unvaccinated children have zero incidence of asthma
– Injecting proteins into mammals will [not might] cause them to develop an allergy
– Increasing vaccinations correlate with increasing asthma, Type I diabetes, ulcerative colitis and of course food allergies among those who have been vaccinated, but there has been no such increase among those who have not been vaccinated
– According to the EPA, if you break a compact fluorescent lamp (CFL) in your house, you are supposed to evacuate the house
This list is not to be taken as exhaustive. But it does prove that your assertion that your blog contains numerous peer-reviewed published references to support your claims is yet another lie.
What is your general opinion of people who lie? Do you believe that lying is justified in the service of what someone perceives as an important goal?
At this point, APV is just JAQing off.
He/She’s been caught out in so many lies, Pinocchio would be jealous of the wood sported.
APV,
Of course there are probabilities. If there are no probabilities, where did all the original solute molecules disappear to? You simply cannot admit to making a mistake, can you? It simply isn’t true that there “are not enough atoms in the universe to achieve that dilution” as you can use serial dilutions as homeopaths do (or claim to – I wonder a bit).
Indeed. That’s why vaccines are manufactured to specifications, of course. Do you mean to imply they aren’t?
Just because you don’t know what the specs are, and because they are different for each vaccine (can you imagine why a DNA vaccine would need different specs from live versus killed vaccine?). The FDA guidance spells out what is generally required to prove efficacy and safety (e.g. combo guidelines here). Afterwards, GMP is required with regular inspection of manufacturing. The particular manufacturer sets specs for each vaccine and this is submitted as part of the FDA registration. Did you ever notice that this is a required part of a New Drug Application. See Title 21 CFR314.50(d):
There is no such lack– specs as shown above. My jaw dropped when I read “lack of safety studies.”
O RLY? What is required by 21CFR314.50(d)(5)(vi)?
O RLY2?
O RLY3?
WTF, ARE YOU INSANE?
APV, please quit making sh!t up. I realize you don’t understand it, but that doesn’t give you a license to make stuff up.
Sigh. In the absence of a preview or edit function, maybe I need a new pair of glasses.
Worst bait-and-switch ever:
See? Dogs, autoantinbodies! Eggs, IgE! Something something histamine! Human lifespans, vaccines something eggs something!
Presto!
You, however, have been studiously refusing to accept the implications of the clear outcome of one study, playing out in real time as nothing short of a command performce, focused on a specific hypothesis that you yourself generated.
^ This should have been at the end, BTW.
Re Tomljenovic L and Shaw CA. Many of their papers have been examined and found wanting (an example of understatement.
For example, this WHO report from 2012:
http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/committee/reports/Jun_2012/en/
The World Health Organization’s Global Advisory Committee on Vaccine Safety reviewed
Tomljenovic L, Shaw CA. Do aluminum vaccine adjuvants contribute to the rising prevalence of autism? Journal of Inorganic Biochemistry, 2011; 105: 1489–1499.
Tomljenovic L, Shaw CA. Aluminum vaccine adjuvants: are they safe? Current Medicinal Chemistry, 2011; 18(17):2630–2637.
at their June 2012 meeting. The report of that meeting read:
In case it hasn’t been been already, I suppose this might as well be tossed out as as a treat.
MadisonMD #891,
Thank you for your detailed response.
I asked the FDA if they have determined a safe level of food proteins that can be present in vaccines. Their response:
“There is not, as you describe it, an FDA determined safe amount of a potentially allergenic ingredient contained in a vaccine. The FDA reviews vaccine composition in its entirety to ensure the safety and efficacy of the vaccine.”
Sanofi Pasteur wrote to me:
“Thank you for contacting Sanofi Pasteur.
There is no specification for residual egg protein (expressed as ovalbumin) for influenza vaccines in the United States, nor is testing of the final product required for ovalbumin content.
This study found 8-18ng/ml of casein in DTaP/TDaP which was causing anaphylaxis. They don’t mention or compare their measurements with a specification.
Co-authors Drs. Sampson and Sicherer are well known oft-cited food allergy researchers. I would be surprised if they are unaware of such a specification.
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749%2811%2900747-0/fulltext
I stated:
“It is my expectation that studies would be conducted for all vaccine excipients to determine safe quantities that can be present. I expect the results to be used to create specifications and test methods that are enforced.”
I am asking for example, how much egg proteins, milk proteins, soy, yeast, gelatin etc. can be present in a vaccine. If Polysorbate 80 is used, what is the specification for the amount of allergens it can contain.
None of the information you provided covers what I am asking.
I’m taking bets on how many more more comments the Troll is going to post.
900 hell ya!
@898
I see. You don’t want to know how the world works. You prefer to lament that it doesn’t work the way you think it ought. How silly of me to waste my time to explain.
MadisonMD #901,
APV wrote:
“It is unprofessional to manufacture products without specifications and in the case of vaccines, extremely dangerous.”
MadisonMD wrote:
“Indeed. That’s why vaccines are manufactured to specifications, of course. Do you mean to imply they aren’t?”
So now you do agree that vaccines are manufactured without specifications, in an unprofessional manner and are extremely dangerous.
Krebiozen #890,
“Of course there are probabilities. If there are no probabilities, where did all the original solute molecules disappear to? You simply cannot admit to making a mistake, can you? It simply isn’t true that there “are not enough atoms in the universe to achieve that dilution” as you can use serial dilutions as homeopaths do (or claim to – I wonder a bit).”
No. A liter of water has about 3e25 molecules.
If you add an NaCl molecule to it, you get a concentration of 1:3e25 molecules. If the NaCl molecule is removed, you get 0 concentration.
In that volume, it is impossible to get any further dilution.
It is either 0 or 1 in 3e25. No probabilities.
If you increase the volume of the container to the size of the earth, you can get about 1:~1e49.
Otherwise, you are talking new physics. Homeopathic pseudophysics perhaps?
Krebiozen #770,
“It just isn’t that simple. For example, peanut allergy is more common in the UK than in Israel, even though, “peanut is introduced earlier and is eaten more frequently and in larger quantities in Israel than in the UK”.”
And sesame allergy I believe is more common in Israel?
May be there is a much simpler explanation.
May be, just may be, UK vaccine makers used Polysorbate 80 contaminated with peanut protein and Israel’s manufacturers used Polysorbate 80 contaminated with sesame protein?
APV/vinucube/Vinu A.:
Look, you lie a lot; you’re a dishonest person. You do not even deny this; I suppose you feel it is justified because of the righteousness of your cause (it’s not, of course). You have no integrity, and you’ve admitted to having no courage. You’ve made many unsupported statements and represented them as facts, and you are engaging in this dishonesty in a way that can frighten people. It is extraordinarily irresponsible to lie about medical information in a public venue, and that’s exactly what you are doing.
You are also in the process of damaging efforts to raise awareness about allergy research, because a wildly dishonest person like you is publicly involved in trying to lead that effort. Another awful responsibility you bear.
You do know that one day, your children will read this thread. Can you give us an idea of how you will explain to them the lies you have told here?
Krebiozen #770,
“Short of inflicting infectious diseases on young children to prime their immune systems, or banning all potentially allergenic foods, what do you suggest we do? I know you have become fixated on the idea that vaccines cause allergies, but have you considered the possibility that you might be wrong?”
No need to inflict diseases on people. Removal of gelatin, Polysorbate 80, have already been demonstrated in vaccines.
First step, enforce it on all vaccines/injections. Drs. Sampson/Sicherer have called for elimination of casein. They would not make that suggestion if they regarded it to be technically impossible. Next step, phase in removal of other food proteins.
Even if I am wrong, no harm is caused.
“https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/allergolint/46/4/46_4_249/_pdf
“Many cases are diagnosed as immediate-type
allergic reactions and it is well established that the IgE
antibody induced against the vaccine antigen or vaccine
components is responsible for the reactions.”
Clearly says they are investigating a replacement for aluminum compounds because aluminum is well known to induce IgE against vaccine antigen or vaccine components.
Oh my word, APV.
Are you delusional? No, I’m serious. In MadisonMD’s comment at #891, s/he posted LINKS to actual specifications for vaccines. How on Earth can you interpret that as proof that vaccines are not made to specifications?
You are at best a liar and dissembler, and at worst delusional.
This is the saddest attempt at trying to maintain the fiction that the idea all along was to plot a fiendishly roundabout course to the Island of Underoos that I’ve ever laid eyes on.
What sort of point spread are you making book with here?
This is getting increasingly bizarre – I am not defending homeopathy!
Dilution does not involve removingsolute molecules. Also, I don’t see how the number of water molecules is relevant, or useful; it’s the solute molecule that matters.
Of course it isn’t impossible: add another 9 liters of water to your dilution that contains one NaCl molecule, mix thoroughly, and you now have a dilution of one molecule per ten liters or one in 3e26 molecules, if you prefer. Take a one liter aliquot of that solution. Is the NaCl in that aliquot or is it in the remaining nine liters? It must be in one or the other, which is where probability comes into play: there is a one in ten chance of the NaCl molecule being in the one liter aliquot.
Serial dilution does not require ‘new physics’. It’s a common way of making large dilutions in chemistry, when you don’t want to waste large volumes of solvent. Take 100 molecules of NaCl, dissolve in 100 mL of water and mix, giving 100 molecules per 100mL. Take a 1 mL aliquot, add to another 100 mL of water and mix, giving (on average) one molecule per 100 mL. Do this again and the chances of you having a single molecule of salt in the 100 mL of water are one in 100. Carry on to homeopathic extremes and the chances of a single molecule remaining start to approximate zero.
That’s why Benveniste’s 1e120 dilution is ridiculous, not because it is physically impossible, but because the chances of there being a single molecule remaining is, for all practical purposes, zero.
APV,
That is your idea of a much simpler explanation? Inventing, out of whole cloth, the existence of protein contamination of vaccines by peanut and sesame proteins without a shred of evidence? It’s true that some anonymous irresponsible lunatic has spread the rumor, on multiple websites, that sesame oil is used instead of peanut oil in vaccines, but I can find no evidence at all for either being used in any vaccines in use anywhere.
Differing diets seem to me to be the simplest explanation for different geographical distributions of food allergies.
ZOMG, we’d better do a study!
Done!
I take it that your data reduction will be up to your usual standards.
Wow. Please read #891 and the links therein which explains this. The crib version: the FDA doesn’t establish specs; the FDA provides guidelines for establishing specs according to Good Manufacturing Practice, and provides specific guidelines for vaccines. Manufacturers demonstrate exactly what their specifications are, as well as the evidence for safety that is submitted as a New Drug Application. If it isn’t up to snuff, the application is rejected.
If they don’t test to food allergens, that is because there has not been any hint that that is a problem. If you wanted scientists to further look into your hypothesis, you should stop making blatantly false statements– nobody is taking you serious anymore.
@MadisonMD
APV doesn’t know the first thing about GMP requirements and responsibilities. He/She is just JAQing off now.
Like most AV’ers – it’s always the fault of a vaccine. It’s never not the fault of the vaccine.
Topologically speaking, the GI tract is on the outside of the body. 😉
Of course, this doesn’t mean anything immunologically speaking, because topologically, the human body is a coffee cup, and coffee cups have no immune system.
“What sort of point spread are you making book with here?”
That would dependent on Orac and the usual policy to close down older threads to additional comments, after 90 days…we could very well set a new record. This thread still has more than two months to run…and the Troll shows no signs of quitting.
Darwy, if it’s “not the fault of the vaccine”, then it’s the fault of the materials (latex ports) in vials of the vaccine.
APV,
If proteins in food are the cause of food allergies, not vaccines, as is consistent with all the evidence we have seen on this thread, and which every immunologist believes, apparently, then removal of these proteins from vaccines would be an enormous waste of time and money. It might prevent the occurrence of anaphylaxis after fewer than one in half a million vaccine shots, but it would doubtless cost millions or even billions of dollars to research every vaccine, develop a food-protein-free version, carry out the required clinical trials etc. etc..
“Called for elimination of casein” is a bit of an exaggeration; they wrote:
The use of “possible” and “might” doesn’t sound very demanding to me. The fact that the suggest labeling as a solution clearly shows that they are talking about existing casein allergies, not that vaccines can cause sensitization, as a label is only of use to someone who knows they are already sensitized.
How do you know that? The processes for manufacturing vaccines are extremely complex and I have no idea if it is possible to eliminate casein or other food proteins from vaccines completely. It’s very difficult getting viruses, and to some extent bacteria, to grow in quantity in cultures, and bacteria tend to like eating the same things we do.
I note that the children in this study reacted to a few nanograms of casein, far lower than the amount required to sensitize, according to those old guinea pig studies we have looked at. Perhaps your claim that less protein is required to sensitize than to cause an allergic reaction is wrong.
Looking at animal allergy studies, I see that intraperitoneal or ingested proteins are used to sensitize, with 100 μg OVA and 1 mg alum (as adjuvant) per mouse – that’s a lot of protein for such a small creature. I wonder why they don’t use i.m. or s.c. injections.
Who is going to pay the millions or billions of dollars required? I can think of many things that money would be better spent on.
Yes, some people have allergic reactions to vaccines, and hypoallergenic vaccines are being developed, but nothing in this paper suggests that vaccines cause those allergies in the first place.
We know that foods are certainly the major source of sensitization to food proteins, so if you are going to eliminate egg proteins from vaccines in the hope of eliminating egg allergy, for example, you are going to have to stop anyone with a family history of allergies from eating eggs or egg products, ever.
Since the latter is clearly impractical, I don’t see why the former would be desirable, except to prevent allergic reactions in those who are already allergic to eggs, of course, and severe allergy is already a contraindication for vaccines containing the relevant allergens.
APV/vinucube/Vinu Ar.:
You have publicly stated as fact that vaccine makers produce vaccines with peanut oil proteins in them.
You may be responsible for people not vaccinating their children out of fear that they will develop peanut allergy based on your assertion.
You have a responsibility to retract your claim and explain that it is unsupported by evidence.
Do you have the courage to do so, or are you as dishonest and cowardly as you claim the FDA is?
Removing all food proteins wouldn’t be enough. We’d need to eliminate everything that cross-reacts with food protein as well.
APV/vinucube/Vinu Ar.:
You have publicly stated as fact that Polysorbate 80 itself is an allergen.
You may be responsible for parents not vaccinating their children out of fear that they will develop an allergy to Polysorbate 80 based on your assertion.
You have a responsibility to retract your claim and explain that it is false.
Do you have the courage to do so, or are you as dishonest and cowardly as you claim the FDA is?
APV/vinucube/Vinu Ar.:
You have publicly stated as fact that one Polysorbate 80 has tapioca in it, according to the vendor.
You’re lying.
Julian Frost #907,
MadisonMD posted guidelines. Those are not specifications.
I was asking for product specifications that include the specifications for the allergen content. No one has posted that yet. If I am wrong, please point me to it.
justthestats #920,
Agreed.
OccamsLaser, #921
“You have publicly stated as fact that Polysorbate 80 itself is an allergen.”
If I recall correctly, Narad posted references showing Polysorbate 80 can cause pseudoallergy.
You know what vaccine manufacturers are like: in the absence of a specific regulation forbidding it they chuck any old stuff in. Tapioca has on occasion been mistaken for a foodstuff (I have the emotional scars to prove it), so who knows?
OccamsLaser #922,
See #180.
That was sarcasm, should it not be clear.
APV has become a clueless troll. It is time to either ignore him or have him banned.
MadisonMD #913,
“If they don’t test to food allergens, that is because there has not been any hint that that is a problem.”
These seem like more than “hints” of a problem:
Gelatin in vaccines was proved to be the cause of gelatin allergy.
Kuno-Sakai H, Kimura M. Removal of gelatin from live vaccines and DTaP-an ultimate solution for vaccine-related gelatin allergy.Biologicals 2003;31:245-9.
Egg in the flu vaccine caused the increase of anti-ovalbumin IgE.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2249232/pdf/epidinfect00008-0113.pdf
Gelatin in flu vaccine causing anaphylaxis:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131108090127.htm
Casein in TDaP/DTaP causing anaphylaxis:
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(11)00747-0/fulltext
Again this curious conflation of “made from” and “contains”. What part of “we do not expect the listed allergens in the final product” isn’t clear?
And a conflation of “allergy” and “pseudoallergy”, which have different words to describe them because they are not the same thing.
APV:
You were being called out for your remark that
Here’s the money quote from MadisonMD’s comment. I’ve bolded the relevant part.
Vaccines ARE manufactured according to a specification. In fact, given how modern manufacturing and mass production works, it would be astonishing if they weren’t.
Only an antivaxxer could write that. Ever hear of the propaganda technique: big lie?
APV/vinucube/Vinu Aru:
You wrote @925,
“If I recall correctly, Narad posted references showing Polysorbate 80 can cause pseudoallergy.”
But that’s not what you said. You have publicly stated as fact that Polysorbate 80 itself is an allergen.
You’re lying.
MadisonMD #913,
“If they don’t test to food allergens, that is because there has not been any hint that that is a problem.”
Before we inject anything into our babies, I would expect thorough safety testing. Your comment implies that the FDA injects stuff into our babies first and then looks for “hints” of a problem?
We have millions of kids who have developed food allergies due to an officially unknown cause. Is that a hint?
I hear “dose makes the poison” thrown around a lot. So why is the expectation that the FDA should determine a safe dose for allergens present in vaccines, an alien concept?
APV/vinucube/Vinu Aru:
I pointed out that you stated that one Polysorbate 80 has tapioca in it, according to the vendor of that product.
You responded @927,
“See #180.”
Your post at #180 contains a link to the vendor’s product information.
So, this is so simple for you. All you have to do to prove your claim that the vendor’s Polysorbate 80 has tapioca in it is to provide the exact quote from that product information stating that their Polysorbate 80 has tapioca in it.
That’s all you have to do. Post the exact quote.
This is a test of your honesty. Don’t forget that one day, perhaps soon, your children will read this.
I’m a big proponent of the flu shot but I put it off because where I usually get it didn’t have the quadrivalent shot I wanted and I am now paying the price. This flu strain mentioned above is really nasty so I hope heed the precautions. My question is, if the CDC knows that they don’t have the right mix, why not work on getting the right combination out to everyone who still needs a shot. Why still give the shot that isn’t the right mix, get the right mix out there now so that come January-February you can try to prevent some suffering. Does anyone know if they plan on getting an improved vaccine out? I personally think they were too caught up dealing with the Ebola crisis to put the proper effort into the flu vaccine. Lawmakers need to ensure that the CDC is fully funded and fully operational since it is rather important…
Krebiozen #930,
“Again this curious conflation of “made from” and “contains”. What part of “we do not expect the listed allergens in the final product” isn’t clear?”
They did not expect intact gelatin in hydrolyzed gelatin either.
What have you learned from the “poorly hydrolyzed gelatin” history lesson? It would have been caught, if there were specifications and tests for compliance.
“We point out that we do not perform any testing on allergens in the above-mentioned
product.”
If you don’t test it, it will automagically be 100% pure.
Contaminated Tylenol:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703866704575224523884970554
Bausch and Lomb:
http://www.allaboutvision.com/contacts/fungal-eye-infections.htm
We don’t learn anything from history, do we? You don’t test your product, your customer gets sick and that’s when you find the problem.
APV/vinucube/Vinu Arum.:
Here’s a future conversation you’re going to have:
Your child: “Dad, I found a thread on the Internet where some people figured out that you were lying about a bunch of stuff having to do with our allergies. Why did you have to lie about that stuff? I looked at the links and stuff and they were right; you made a bunch of things up. You’re always telling us how angry dishonest people make you, but now I found out that you’re really dishonest.”
You: “…”
Go ahead and fill that in. You’re going to have to sooner or later.
Julian Frost #933,
“specifications necessary to ensure the identity, strength, quality, and purity of the drug substance and the bioavailability of the drug products made from the substance, including, for example, tests, analytical procedures, and acceptance criteria relating to stability, sterility, particle size, and crystalline form.”
It is talking about the manufacturer providing a specification for the drug substance alone. There is no mention of excipients or specification for allergens. According to that description, vaccines should have nothing other than the vaccine antigens.
Stop lying and go away, APV the troll.
Krebiozen #918,
“We know that foods are certainly the major source of sensitization to food proteins,”
No, you yourself pointed out that you cannot explain why the UK has more peanut allergy when diets in Israel consist of more peanuts and introduced earlier in life.
APV/vinucube/Vinu Arumu.:
You keep avoiding dealing directly with the lies of yours that have been exposed here.
Your kids will one day read this thread. You really should put your confession on the record to try to soften the blow to their image of you as an honest person with integrity and courage.
Why won’t you address your numerous lies? Things really can’t get much worse for you at this point, can they?
APV,
Of course they are thoroughly tested for safety – didn’t you read MadisonMD’s comment at #891? The links s/he provided clearly show that permitted ingredients are either those that are already known to be safe or are tested before the drug is approved. Post marketing surveillance continues looking for problems after approval, as far more people are exposed to the drug and rare problems may show up at this point. I don’t know of any better way of testing a drug/vaccine. How would you go about checking for adverse reactions that might occur once in hundreds of thousands or even millions of doses?
You keep making this claim, but we do know what causes food allergies: exposure to foods combined with a genetic susceptibility and some other unknown factors. That’s why people are allergic to the foods eaten in their cultures. The existence of unknown factors in the equation doesn’t mean that it isn’t food causing food allergies after all.
It isn’t an alien concept, the links MadisonMD provided show very clearly that vaccine manufacturers have to provide the FDA evidence that every vaccine ingredient is safe at the given dose. I would bet a fair amount that the FDA chaps in charge of approving vaccines are very aware of what are potential allergens and in what doses.
Lapses in manufacturing standards occur, of course. By the way, it wasn’t gelatin that was inadequately hydrolyzed, it was the collagen it was made from. Gelatin is hydrolyzed collagen.
How precisely would such a rare reaction have been caught before the vaccine was approved?
How do you pick out an adverse reaction that affects one in 100,000 people or fewer without giving the vaccine to millions of people?
As for the imaginary contaminants in polysorbate 80….
Apparently on your planet, “we do not expect the listed allergens in the final product” means it definitely contains the listed allergens. I very much doubt that any intact proteins could possibly survive the manufacturing process, and I suspect that the company has worded it with potential law suits in mind. Doesn’t the wording and the addition of, “we do not perform any testing on allergens in the above-mentioned product” suggest that any drug companies making a vaccine using this product are expected to do some allergy testing?
This is a case of existing regulations not being followed. An FDA report, “found more than a dozen other violations at the facility used to make the products, detailed a series of sloppy manufacturing processes including failure to maintain equipment, properly train employees and correctly weigh ingredients”.
Again, this was not due to a lack of manufacturing specifications or regulations, but a failure to follow existing regulations:
Human nature being what it is, sometimes people will cut corners and fail to follow SOPs. Additional regulations and specifications will not change that.
That’s not the lesson I take from those cases. I see the FDA finding lapses in regulations and the company in question being sued. I also see the FDA changing its guidelines as a result:
Nothing is perfect, but it seems to me the current system is working reasonably well.
That’s not true. Go back and read the papers that MadisonMD linked to.
The “kosher tapioca” phrasing is pretting amusing in and of itself. (The issue is that sorbitol may be wheat-derived, i.e., chometz; it has nothing to do with the tapioca per se. What any of this has to do with injectables is a complete mystery.)
APV,
Peanuts are commonly eaten in both Israel and the UK, which is why we see allergies to these foods and not to cassava or other foods that are not commonly eaten. There are presumably one or more of those unknown factors I mentioned in my last comment, perhaps the age at which foods are introduced to children.
You don’t seem to have addressed the fact that no vaccines contain any amount of peanuts or sesame seeds, so they could not possibly induce peanut or sesame allergies.
Claims that some vaccine ingredients are not included in the package insert are untrue, as you can see from this set of FDA regulations for general biological products, which clearly states that labeling must include (my emphasis):
Kreb –
“You don’t seem to have addressed the fact that no vaccines contain any amount of peanuts or sesame seeds, so they could not possibly induce peanut or sesame allergies.”
Actually, APV has addressed that exact point the same way he has addressed so many others — by lying. He’s said that vaccine makers produce vaccines with peanut oil proteins in them.
Ordinarily, I would not discourage you from engaging someone who is wrongheaded. Progress can be made with the thickheaded, the lazy, the misinformed, the stubborn, and even the slightly crazy. But Vinu is fundamentally dishonest. That means that 1) you cannot change his position, because he will go so far as to lie to defend it, and 2) you don’t really need to counter his points endlessly for the benefit of (non-dishonest) third parties who are following along, because Vinu has destroyed his own credibility so thoroughly that there is little possibility that anyone open-minded and reasonably intelligent will be taken in by his fabrications.
Don’t be an idiot.
(1) The FDA doesn’t inject anything into anybody.
(2) Safety testing is required for IND as per U.S. federal law cited in #891.
The core of the problem is that if someone comes up with a random implausible idea, say “vaccines cause hamartomas,” then there is no specific safety test for that. So any antivaxxer could come up with any random implausible hypothesis that has not been tested. In your case, the only conceivable half-way plausible hypothesis would refer to certain influenza vaccines and egg allergies. And, if that is your particular concern, you can get egg-free flu vaccination, which is safe for people with egg allergies. End of story.
APV says:
OMG! Don’t be such a flicking imbecile: Title 21 CFR314.50(d)(1):
This is federal law linked above, and quoted for you above in #891. I asked you to re-read it above when you seemed to have missed the salient points. Are you pathologically unable to admit you are wrong, APV? You keeping digging your self further and further into a stinking hole of lies and ignorance!
MadisonMD #949,
“The core of the problem is that if someone comes up with a random implausible idea, say “vaccines cause hamartomas,” then there is no specific safety test for that.”
Charles Richet showed more than a 100 years ago, that injecting proteins can cause sensitization and subsequent exposure can cause anaphylaxis. We are not talking about a “random implausible idea”, we are talking about an established fundamental concept in immunology. So, where are the specific tests for allergen proteins in vaccines?
Krebiozen #947,
“Known sensitizing substances”
Please point us to the package insert of a vaccine that lists poorly hydrolyzed gelatin.
That’s the problem of just listing something. Where is the specification for safety?
Casein is listed. People expected it to be removed. We won’t spec/test for casein (like allergens in Polysorbate 80s) because we know it’s not there …
But it has a bad habit of showing up in the vaccine.
I took a class once from a toxicologist who was one of those responsible for getting a then-commonly used chemical banned, so I think APV’s idea that people like him don’t exist is a little funny.
Incidentally, he mentioned several times in class about how snails really hate BPA, even though it was never really on topic. I never did figure out why as a human I should care so passionately about snail preferences, but I guess he knew what he was talking about because eventually people started about banning it.
@APV
Is your company in the habit of handing out its specifications to any random person that asks? I know mine doesn’t. But that doesn’t mean we don’t have them.
OccamsRazor,
Oh I know you’re right, but I often find myself fascinated to see how people refuse to let go of a belief even when it clearly conflicts with reality. I’m getting bored, as this is has been going in circles for a while now. On the other hand, we are getting close to a thousand 😉
I can’t entirely parse APV’s last comment anyway, so perhaps I’ll drop it here.
No, you just habitually fall back on obtuseness out of desperation.
How does cassava protein get into Tween 80? Identify and defend the plausibility of every fυcking step or go back to pretending to be a medical professional at Medscape.
You know what else might help? Telling everybody exactly how many cases of primary cassava allergy are known.
justthestats #954,
If my company makes a product that gets injected into kids, I expect the FDA to require them to make the specifications public.
Further, it does not make sense for each company to repeat studies on safe levels of egg protein in vaccines, for example. So, the expectation is such studies will be peer-reviewed published works. It is then available to organizations such as FDA/WHO to set vaccine industry standards for allergen safety levels.
Krebiozen #945,
“Apparently on your planet, “we do not expect the listed allergens in the final product” means it definitely contains the listed allergens. I very much doubt that any intact proteins could possibly survive the manufacturing process, and I suspect that the company has worded it with potential law suits in mind.”
How did “poorly hydrolyzed gelatin” happen?
How did 8-18 ng/ml casein end up in DPT?
“Doesn’t the wording and the addition of, “we do not perform any testing on allergens in the above-mentioned product” suggest that any drug companies making a vaccine using this product are expected to do some allergy testing?”
Ok, the drug company should do allergy testing. Against which specification?
It looks to me like APV has now admitted that he fabricated several of the claims that he has posted. At least we might get some closure on this sad episode.
Did APV just answer himself in his last post and then suggest where the conversation should go?
Mrs. Woo –
I think he’s replying to points Kreb made @945.
I’d bet dollars to doughnuts that he didn’t know what tapioca actually is when he started babbling about it.
It has, of course, already trotted this out (some four or five hundred comments ago).
One might be inclined to wonder all the same where all the fυcking Herceptin anaphylaxis is.
Apologies to OccamsLaser for getting your nym wrong – it was 3 am in my time zone.
Also to Mrs. Woo, who directed a comment to me a few days ago that I didn’t reply to. That was because I couldn’t find it again; I wasn’t meaning to be impolite! You admired my patience with APV but it’s more that I’m curious to see just just how impervious to reason s/he is, and also that ifs/he is here arguing s/he isn’t posting more unchallenged misinformation elsewhere, though that’s probably not an efficient strategy.
@Narad #963
Let me paraphrase APV’s coming answer, “Something, something, not IV injection, something, something, reaction at injection site, something something “
We need to tell all the diabetics to stop injecting insulin immediately as these proteins cause anaphylaxis and brain injury on a massive global scale.
insert ‘all caps’ wherever needed.
APV:
Given that said specification could include trade secrets, and that the FDA has people who are qualified to check vaccine specifications and demand modifications if necessary, why?
Also, I’m fed up with your dishonesty. You claimed that MadisonMD’s comments were proof that vaccines were not made to a specification when they proved that they were. When I called you out for it, you engaged in a goalpost shift with…
MadisonMD @950 then pointed out your claims were false.
I can draw no other conclusion from your comments that you are wilfully ignoring inconvenient facts and lying when it suits you.
Sadly, there are people who would seriously go this way. Some anti-GMO folks who are very upset with yeast-grown insulin being a successful application of GMO tech, by example.
#951
Anaphalaxis? The risk of anaphlaxis to influenza vaccines is 0.65 per million. That’s after sensitization to the same principle ingredients– viral antigens which are often the same in subsequent years. Testing some trace antigen is immaterial as this involves repeat immunization with the same influenza antigens. It turns out that you can even give trivalent vaccine to individuals with severe egg allergy. All this has been tested, available in peer-reviewed literature and safety is known.
There are two things to note here, at least.
1. Vinu has silently backtracked (without a retraction, of course), from his original assertion:
2. The subsidiary evasion of “food-like” doses in order to elicit anaphylaxis seems to have been slipped in (e.g., comment 762) to hand-wave away the foregoing objection, even though it is still supposed to have explanatory power when convenient.
The only thing he has is trying to impress with hyperemetic displays from his two (nearly identical) blogs. As I’ve repeatedly noted, there are better sources to try use to back up his very own claims, but he’s been too dense to even pick up on the hints.
* What would “FemtoThnk” do?
MadisonMD #969,
“Anaphalaxis? The risk of anaphlaxis to influenza vaccines is 0.65 per million. That’s after sensitization to the same principle ingredients– viral antigens which are often the same in subsequent years. Testing some trace antigen is immaterial as this involves repeat immunization with the same influenza antigens.”
Thank you posting this. If I understand you correctly, I was predicting the same in post #202 regarding Flublok.
I wrote:
“Flublok advertises that they have 45*3=135 mcg of viral protein, 3X the normal amount. If next year’s strains are selected to be the same as this year’s, risk of anaphylaxis due to anti-influenza IgE could become a real problem.”
A typical flu shot contains 15 mcg of hemagglutinin (HA) protein per virus type and 0.5 mcg of ovalbumin protein. About 60% (maybe more?) of US children who receive a flu shot get sensitized to the HA protein. One can therefore expect 60/(15/0.5)=2% of those who receive the flu shot to get sensitized to the ovalbumin protein as well?
No, put a fυcking sock in it. You have a specific go–no-go at #956, and that’s not even getting to what the fυck excuse you could possibly disgorge for “failing to notice” this.
Did you not even fυcking notice comments 185, 834, and 866? Were you too busy pretending to be a medical student?
APV,
I can’t ignore the reappearance of this brilliant piece of reasoning.
This is true.
How do you get from 0.65 per million to 60%? By, “get sensitized”, do you mean 60% develop immunity in the form of IgG antibodies? If so, that’s not an allergy, is it? I do not believe that 60% of children who receive an influenza vaccine develop an allergy to it. Are you confusing IgG and IgE again?
How did you get the idea that we can just assume the same dose-dependent immune response regardless of the protein involved, whether or not the subject is atopic, and even whether it’s an IgG or IgE response? If immunology is that easy I suppose we can assume that 60/(15/135)=540% of people given Flublok will get sensitized to influenza hemagglutinin. Oh, wait….
Ignoring that blunder, according to your somewhat dodgy logic, surely we can expect 0.65/(15/0.5) = 1 per 45 million of those who receive the flu shot to develop an allergy to the ovalbumin protein as well, and perhaps 2% to develop IgG antibodies to ovalbumin.
Kreb964
How impervious to reason?
Thoroughly, obviously.
APV is attached to his/her little hypothesis umbilically. He probably feels that he would expire without it. Her entire life now depends on it. Like a creationist depends on the belief that Genesis is literally true, pure naked and unadorned – except for a literal fig leaf. Like metaphorical theology depends on belief that the fig leaf in Genesis is of the metaphorical genera. One way or another, by hook or by crook APV is going to believe and nothing and nobody is ever going to get him/her to say, hey, you know what, you are right and I was wrong. The evidence shows that vaccines do far more good than harm.
What APV will do is take all that has transpired here off to other sites to with less knowledgable participants. Prepared with ready made responses to virtually all possible objections.
There really is no satisfactory strategy for dealing with somone for whom the meaning of life is a personal belief for which there is no evidence whatsoever, and who wants the world to believe too.
(Would not in the least surprise me if APV is a creationist.)
[…] on a vaccine insert”) amused me given the frequently used and deceptive technique of “argument by package insert” so beloved of antivaccinationists. Add to that his liberal use of the “toxins […]
Krebiozen #974,
“How do you get from 0.65 per million to 60%? By, “get sensitized”, do you mean 60% develop immunity in the form of IgG antibodies? If so, that’s not an allergy, is it? I do not believe that 60% of children who receive an influenza vaccine develop an allergy to it. Are you confusing IgG and IgE again?”
My understanding is that vaccine antigens cause the synthesis of BOTH IgG and IgE per study below, regardless of atopy status. Atopy may affect degree of sensitization?
0.65/million is the elicitation rate for a small (15 mcg) elicitation dose, not the sensitization rate. Per study below (n=3 for Fluzone), IgE synthesis is definitely more than 0.65/million and much closer to 100%.
Smith-Norowitz TA, Wong D, Kusonruksa M, Norowitz KB, Joks R, Durkin HG, Bluth MH. Long Term Persistence of IgE Anti-Influenza Virus Antibodies in Pediatric and Adult Serum Post Vaccination with Influenza Virus Vaccine. Int J Med Sci 2011; 8(3):239-244. doi:10.7150/ijms.8.239. Available from http://www.medsci.org/v08p0239.htm
“How did you get the idea that we can just assume the same dose-dependent immune response regardless of the protein involved”
Yes, that argument could go both ways. Ovalbumin (or any other egg protein present in the vaccine for that matter) could be more strongly immunogenic than the HA protein too?
So it seems a study should have been done to determine the safe levels for egg proteins in the vaccine?
Why are you lying about being a medical student at Medscape?
APV, there’s one thing you need to learn if yo don’t want to get repeatedly shown up here.
When you post a reference, the “shills and minions” (as we jokingly call ourselves) will click on the link, will read the study and will tear you a new one if it turns out you’ve misrepresented it.
I’m afraid I don’t see the point of posting a link to that study. It’s about Long Term Persistence of IgE Anti-Influenza Virus Antibodies in Pediatric and Adult Serum Post Vaccination with Influenza Virus Vaccine. Literally. That’s its name. If it was about, say, antibody production against egg albumin after vaccination, you may have had a point.
APV/vinucube/Vinu Arumugham:
Thanks for admitting that you fabricated many of the supposed facts you’ve posted here and elsewhere on the Internet.
Are you coming to realize that lying doesn’t serve your cause?
Wow, APV lies about being a medical student on Medscape?
How low can you go APV?
APV,
So your claim is that by some extraordinary coincidence influenza vaccines contain enough proteins to sensitize but not enough to elicit an allergic reaction, except in 0.65 in a million patients? The number of anaphylactic reactions to vaccines does not appear to be increasing, so how is it that people who get the vaccine every year become allergic to eggs that they eat, but never, apparently, to the egg proteins in the vaccine?
We have been over this before. You don’t know that the IgE antibodies have anything to do with the vaccine; they could well be due to exposure to wild influenza virus. Subject 5 is 16 years old, is clearly atopic (total IgE 132 IU/mL) and yet has only IgG antibodies despite having had an influenza vaccine, and all older subjects have both IgE and IgG antibodies, which supports this hypothesis.
How many times have I explained that IgE synthesis is not the same thing as sensitization, and that some production of IgE is normal? Even the study you cited says nothing about allergy to HA:
Back to what you wrote…
Since we know that some proteins are more allergenic than others, and that small increases in IgE are of no clinical significance, your assumptions and your calculations are groundless.
Such studies have already been done, back when influenza vaccines were first being developed and since. Just a few examples, PMID: 14910853, PMID: 13692367, PMID: 1239018, PMID: 604096, PMID: 315676 and PMID: 11846867. From that last paper:
Looks like your hypothesis was considered, investigated and rejected decades ago.
I presume it has to do with this:
He has already proved completely unable to quantify this (see #782). In the meantime, he conspicuously ignored my comment #773:
A charitable explanation would be that he was just too damned stupid to understand the question or too busy responding to things where it was simpler to repeat the same fυcking shіt from his “blogs” over and over again.
A less charitable reason for his ignoring it is that he actually did understand what I was getting at (PDF).*
On balance, I’m going with the former.
* The genuine item was open access when it was “in press”; beats me.
Krebiozen #982
“So your claim is that by some extraordinary coincidence influenza vaccines contain enough proteins to sensitize but not enough to elicit an allergic reaction, except in 0.65 in a million patients?”
The gap between the sensitization dose and the elicitation dose is an evolutionary outcome.
If you were sensitized by one virus and a few weeks later if another single virus exposure could cause anaphylaxis, you would go extinct. Vaccine makers only use enough proteins to cause sensitization. Why would they add more virus proteins if a smaller quantity works? Of course, there are exceptions like Flublok and we have to see how they fare on the anaphylaxis front …
BTW, the 0.65/million is not for influenza. MadisonMD probably had a different reference in mind …
“The number of anaphylactic reactions to vaccines does not appear to be increasing, so how is it that people who get the vaccine every year become allergic to eggs that they eat, but never, apparently, to the egg proteins in the vaccine?”
Huge difference in the elicitation doses. Vaccines have 1 mcg. You usually eat a lot more than an mcg.
“Subject 5 is 16 years old, is clearly atopic”
Subject 5 received LAIV, which is more like a natural infection. It is best to leave the LAIV cases out.
“You don’t know that the IgE antibodies have anything to do with the vaccine;”
Vaccine antigens causing IgE synthesis has been demonstrated over and over since at least 1977.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/830756
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-3083.2005.01710.x/pdf
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0264410X9400017H
They were worried enough about IgE synthesis to say “… aluminium as adjuvant may need re-evaluation.”
“Since we know that some proteins are more allergenic than others, and that small increases in IgE are of no clinical significance, your assumptions and your calculations are groundless.”
You have not demonstrated that egg proteins are less allergenic than HA proteins. So can how can you dismiss my calculation?
“Looks like your hypothesis was considered, investigated and rejected decades ago.”
You have now accepted that the Richet allergy model was considered to be a risk factor for allergens present in vaccines, even by qualified researchers.
Papers 1,2 are references you provided.
Paper 1.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM195204032461403
They show 5 of 312 developed dermal sensitivity to egg white due to the egg proteins present in vaccines.
Paper 2.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1034/j.1399-3038.2001.1r046.x/abstract
says “Some epidemiological studies in humans suggest an inhibitory effect of tuberculosis on allergy”.
The children in Paper 1, were all under treatment for tuberculosis.
So the authors seem to have unknowingly selected a population with some protection against allergy.
So even in a population with some protection against allergy, sensitivity was detectable in 1.6% of the patients, in 1952.
Aggravating factors for today’s children:
1. They are not exposed to tuberculosis (thankfully) and derive no inhibitory effect against allergy (unfortunately).
2. They are more prone to allergies due to hygiene and sometimes even due to c-section birth.
3. They receive multiple vaccinations in one sitting. For example, DTaP has pertussis toxin and aluminum BOTH of which are known to act as adjuvants that enhance IgE synthesis. DTaP can be simultaneously administered with MMR. The various excipients in MMR and DTaP have their immunogenicity amplified by the adjuvants.
Considering all this, why no allergen quantity specification in vaccines?
Don’t all these aggravating factors mean that the 1952 results need to re-visited?
Looks like “rejected decades ago”, prematurely …
@APV – the problem with what you are doing is that you take bits and pieces of various studies, which ends up allowing possible confounded into the results (some call this cherry-picking) and only pick pieces favorable to your pet hypothesis.
That isn’t science. That is what a measured, balanced scientific approach attempts to avoid.
APV, where are the verifiable statistics that the influenza vaccine has caused as many pediatric deaths as the actual disease? This season influenza has now killed fifteen children:
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/
Anything other than the evidence the vaccine is more dangerous than the disease will be considered mindless trolling.
APV/vinucube/Vinu Arumugham:
Given that you have admitted fabricating many of the things you’ve put forth as facts, and that you lied about being a medical student, why should anyone believe anything you say?
@APV
Thanks for that. I incorrectly cited my reference because 0.65/million was for all vaccines. Here is the money quote from the article specific to influenza:
There were 197,964 doses of influenza covered in this study. Here’s another study that shows no association between influenza vaccine and anaphylaxis in 3.3 million doses.
Now quit being a jackass and admit you are wrong again. No, I guess you can’t do that because antivaxxers like you are simply impervious to facts.
MadisonMD #988,
You wrote in #969:
“That’s after sensitization to the same principle ingredients– viral antigens which are often the same in subsequent years.”
Do you still believe that or not? Any references?
And, anaphylaxis to vaccines is not my primary concern. As I have noted several times before, anaphylaxis is just the tip of the iceberg. It is proof that there is enough allergen in vaccines to cause sensitization.
If you are acting as an honest interlocutor, APV, please indicate all the erroneous statements of fact that you have made thus far in this thread. If you do so, then I will be more than happy to answer your questions. Otherwise, you are a waste.
APV,
You still seem to think that anaphlaxis has evolved because it has some kind of survival advantage. It hasn’t, it’s the result of a glitch in our defenses against parasites.
I remind you that Wells found that 0.63 micrograms of egg protein sensitized a 300 gram guinea pig, smaller doses produced “no sensitization whatever” and fatal anaphylaxis only occurred after sensitization with 5-10 times this dose i.e. 3.15 to 6.3 µg .
Since a 6-month-old child weighs at least 6.7 kg, 22 times as much as the guinea pig, we can expect anything less than 13 µg of egg protein (or 9 µg ovalbumin since egg white protein is 65% ovalbumin) to cause “no sensitization whatever”, and only more than 65 µg to sensitize sufficiently to cause fatal anaphylaxis.
If you have any more recent evidence that less ovalbumin than this can sensitize sufficiently to cause clinical allergy, do share. Otherwise this is a dead hypothesis that would be pushing up the daisies if you hadn’t nailed it to its perch.
Are we reaching the 1,000 posts before the end of 2014?
APV, where are the statistics of pediatric deaths due to the influenza vaccine? Until you provide the statistics that the vaccine has killed at least fifteen kids in the USA each year, you are just trolling.
Renate, I’m not sure it counts if APV keeps posting the same fallacies over and over again, causing other posters to keep posting the same corrections over and over again.
The short APV.
Indeed, Shay, we’re approaching an infinite do-loop with APV… *SIGH*
APV still hasn’t responded to the observation thatthere are lots of ways to get food proteins “injected” into the body: knifeslips while preparing food or butchering animals, handling food with scratched hands, eating with a cut or other injury inthe mouth, being bitten or scratched by an animal, getting stuck by a thorn … If *any* protein injected into the body *will* cause anaphylaxis on the next exposure, why didn’t the human species — or even all mammalian species — go extinct a long time ago?
APV/vinucube/Vinu Arumugham:
Now that you admitted making things up, can you tell us (and your children, who will read this) what drove you to be so dishonest? Have you realized that you are engaging in all those dishonest acts that you have accused government agencies and researchers of doing?
Please explain why you decided to lie.
Scottynuke,
Fear not, I, for one, have an exit strategy.
WHILE NOT BORED
REFUTE
WHILE END
I just got a weird message complaining that my comment was from 2015 (which looks reassuringly similar to 2014 for those of you still there).
I do like APV’s claim (from Narad’s last link) claiming that live nasal vaccines inject “live viruses on to your olfactory nerve that is millimeters away from your brain”. I’m never breathing again, just in case.
Come on, APV! Kids are dying from influenza!
So where is that verifiable data that more kids die from the vaccine? Why won’t you tell us?
Hang on one sec’.
OK, yah, clearing cookies fixes it (I was getting “wrong answer [2014]” or thereabouts).
I mentioned this a while ago to Orac while I was bringing a donated G3 iBook (OS X 10.3.9) around, and the same thing was happening on the naive installed browsers. Naturally, I sounded like a nut.
If you look really closely during a page load, you’ll see the WP antispam plugin “Current ye@r” line. After the cookie clear, it was filled in with 2.2, which I take to be the version. On the ancient machine, changing the prefill to the correct year allowed posting.
How it autofills itself with the correct answer and what it’s good for are likely to be dreary subjects of investigation.
OK, it appears to be some approach aimed at people who are too brain-dead to figure out how to prevent direct injection to wp-comments-post.php on their own, which definitely fits.
I just wish he would try applying his AI engine instead. Or switch it off and post for himself, whichever.
Krebiozen #991,
PMID: 14910853
Allergy to viral and rickettsial vaccines. III. Influence of repeated inoculations on the acquisition of egg allergy
The reference you provided demonstrates that even in a population protected against allergy (by tuberculosis infection), egg proteins in vaccines caused the development of dermal sensitivity to egg proteins. You have thus provided even more evidence in support of the Richet allergy model.
APV, who gets vaccinated for typhus? By the way, that study was from 1952.
Also, where are the statistics showing that the influenza vaccine causes as many deaths to children as does the disease? A disease that as of this week as killed fifteen kids:
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/
Until then you are just a troll.
APV, could you tell me where to get the full article? I searched on it and all I could get were the first hundred words. The article lists it as a possibility. In addition, the article is from 1952.
Quick question, fake medical student: Does the Roman numeral appear in the actual title? You wouldn’t be tossing out something as “more recent evidence” that you haven’t even read, now, would you?
Howsabout you type up some of the relevant text to help out those members of your audince who don’t have institutional access from home?
Maybe that’s why vaccine manufacturers have dramatically reduced the amount of egg protein in vaccines over the past 63 years, to the point where there is too little in most influenza vaccines to sensitize even a 300 gram guinea pig, much less a human.
APV/vinucube/Vinu Armugham –
Now that you’ve admitted making things up to support your argument, can you tell us why you did that? We get lots of people here who engage in this sort of dishonesty, so I’m hoping you can give us some insight into why folks like you do this.
Do you decide that your cause is just, so if you have to lie to further it, it’s justified?
It’s interesting. Though I will say it’s unusual to see it coming from an engineer; engineers — at least, good engineers — are usually pretty honest, in my experience. Do you limit your dishonesty to this medical discussion, or do you attempt the same tactics at your job when you think the ends justify it?
Tell us a bit about your thought processes and philosophy.
Krebiozen #1010,
“Maybe that’s why vaccine manufacturers have dramatically reduced the amount of egg protein in vaccines over the past 63 years …”
1. So the FDA and the vaccine makers have known for 63 years that food proteins in vaccines cause food allergy.
2. No studies have been conducted in 63 years to determine safe levels for these food proteins present in vaccines.
3. These food allergy experts did not get the memo or were kept in the dark?
Food allergy: an enigmatic epidemic.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23648309
APV, reading comprehension is not your strong point. The knowledge that egg allergies are a problem is why there are so few egg proteins in the vaccines.
Now where is the evidence the influenza vaccine kills as many kids as the disease? According to the news emergency departments are being swamped by those with severe flu symptoms, including children. So at the next weekly CDC influenza update there may be much for than just fifteen pediatric influenza deaths.
Why are you so in love with your “allergy” hypothesis that you ignore the actual devastation from the disease?
Protip, Vinu: As a design choice, a compact three-stage linear cascade to improve upon the performance of the same-old-shіt circuit just plain isn’t going to work if you place the “begging the question” component first in the chain.
Vinu –
You made up lots of purported facts to support your position. You do not deny doing this. You’re dishonest. You’ve forfeited the right to accuse anyone of anything.
Because you make stuff up.
APV:
No. Once again, you are drawing an unwarranted conclusion from insufficient data. The amount of egg protein was lowered as a precaution. Nothing in this thread can be construed as proof for your hypothesis.
Maybe tapioca isn’t necessarily kosher for Passover for the same reason as the trichinosis retconning of kashrus.
Oh, wait, have you forgotten all about the pressing need for a specification of the amount of residual “kosher tapioca” in vaccines?
@Vinu/APV
You have been shown to be a liar (eg pretending to be a medical student for one).
Now this raises an issue about the honesty of your comments here. To allow the discussion to progress, could you please explain why you lied and indicate which other statements of yours are deliberate lies.
Then people can deal with the remainder of your thoughts and opinions on the topic. Until then, it would be prudent for them to take the view that you are prepared to lie to achieve whatever your objective is, and so it raises casts great doubt upon the reliability and honesty of your posts.
APV,
How do you know this? Have you really read every single paper on the subject available on PubMed, every unpublished paper and all the vaccine manufacturers’ research on the subject since 1933 when the first influenza vaccine was developed?
Are you aware of all the research into methods to reduce the amount of egg protein in influenza vaccines, such as this paper published 38 years ago?
APV,
Why would we see an epidemic of egg allergy now, when historically vaccines contained far more egg protein than they do now? In 1967/8 influenza vaccines contained 7.4 micrograms ovalbumin per mL, and smallpox vaccine contained 25.8 micrograms ovalbumin per mL.
APV,
I see no mention of vaccines at all, and the key points are (my emphasis):
I see nothing here to support your hypothesis.
I have always been a strong advocate of the annual flu shot. However, this year has left me with much reservation. After receiving the flu shot in October, I have two separate bouts of influenza in the past two months. (and I’m not elderly or high risk). I have read reports in the media that the 2014 flu shot is very low in effectiveness compared to prior years. I have two questions:
Why was the A Switzerland strain included in the Southern Hemisphere shot but not for North America? Every day plane loads of people travel between Southern Hemisphere and Northern Hemisphere countries. Wouldn’t it be plausible that an illness that is spread through the air quickly make it to North America?
Secondly, if it was known in the spring that the shots being administered in the fall were very low in effectiveness, why weren’t people getting the shot told of this? To go from an effectiveness rate of around 60-70% down to around 40% or so is a huge variation.
Things can mutate and change, but the implications of getting a flu shot combination wrong are incredibly serious. Tens or hundreds of thousands of people who did get the shot will get ill from the flu regardless while thousands more could very well die from it.
I might be seriously wondering if getting a flu shot is a great thing for the next flu season.
Vinu –
Do you wish medical researchers were more honest than you are?
Krebiozen,
#1019:
“How do you know this? Have you really read every single paper on the subject available on PubMed, every unpublished paper and all the vaccine manufacturers’ research on the subject since 1933 when the first influenza vaccine was developed?”
The FDA, Sanofi Pasteur and USP said there is no allergen spec. If you find studies that determined safe levels for the amount of food proteins in vaccines, that will be a bigger scandal.
#1020
“Why would we see an epidemic of egg allergy now, when historically vaccines contained far more egg protein than they do now? In 1967/8 influenza vaccines contained 7.4 micrograms ovalbumin per mL, and smallpox vaccine contained 25.8 micrograms ovalbumin per mL.”
And, in 2009:
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749%2809%2902305-7/fulltext
“Since the 1997-1998 influenza season, 51 lots of vaccine have been tested. The brands and lots with the lowest level of ovalbumin were chosen for vaccination of egg allergic patients to avoid adverse events. The concentration of ovalbumin in the same brand varied from year to year (e.g. Flumist®: 005-0.8 μg/ml; Flushied®, 6.90-38.30 μg/ml; Fluarix®, 0.025-0.31 μg/ml; Fluzone®, 0.30-8.05 μg/ml; Fluvirin®, <0.01-0.55 μg/ml)."
So vaccines were causing food allergy as recently as 2008.
And,
1) We have not accounted for children being more atopic now.
2) We have not accounted for 50% increase in c-section births in the past two decades, resulting in more atopy.
3) We have not accounted for simultaneous administration of vaccines, where the food allergen immunogenicity can be increased by adjuvants such as pertussis toxin and aluminum salts.
#1021
"I see no mention of vaccines at all …"
Exactly. That's the key point. The FDA and vaccine makers have known that food proteins in vaccine cause food allergy for 63 years. In a professional/scientific/open endeavor, I would have expected something like this for example:
**********HYPOTHETICAL PARAGRAPH IN Berin MC et. al ********************
Historical Perspective
Food proteins in vaccines were a cause for food allergies in the 1950s (reference AA-BB).
Numerous studies (reference XX-YY) were conducted to determine safe levels for food proteins present in vaccines.
In the 1960s, the FDA established and began enforcing specifications created based on these studies. Vaccines are therefore no longer a cause of food allergies.
**********************End*****************************************************
But then again, if this was handled in a professional/scientific/open manner, maybe there would have been no need for the Berin MC et. al. paper, at all …
AG1: Are you certain that your two episodes of illness, during two successive months, really were influenza? I’m not certain how your own doctor/Canadian doctors test for the presence of influenza in patients.
The decision was made in February 2014, for the strains which are selected for incorporation into the seasonal influenza vaccine used during the next Northern Hemisphere seasonal influenza season 2014-2015. The selected strains for seasonal influenza vaccine used in the Southern Hemisphere, are made in September:
http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2014/02/who-keeps-same-strains-next-seasons-flu-vaccine
You have to ask yourself if somewhat decreased protection against influenza (during a seasonal influenza season where there isn’t a good match), is worth it. Most people decide that partial protection is better than no protection at all.
Not really, no.
That’s a good one.
Anyway, rather than bizarrely fantasizing about what a paper could have said if only the authors had correctly attended to your blogs, you could do this and check back in afterward.
^ There should have been a “[sic]” after “Berin MC et. al,” both for the obvious reason and because there were only two authors.
I’m sure this will be covered briefly in a practicum or something as APV progresses through medical school.
Even worse, December isn’t fall in the relevant hemisphere.
IIRC, severe cases/confirmed deaths of influenza were reported out of Mexico which then spread to small areas of the United States ~ June, 2009…months past the decision was made for the actual strains of influenza to be incorporated into the Northern Hemisphere upcoming 2009-2010 seasonal influenza season vaccines…and far too late to substitute any strains in the tri valent influenza vaccine being manufactuered for the upcoming seasonal flu vaccine. That was the year that no healthy older adult was eligible for that additional single valent H1N1 vaccine, which was successfully manufactured and available in September 2009, and, which was provided only for young children and in very limited doses for older people who were deemed at extreme risk.
My husband and I were judged to be healthy adults, who were exposed to H1N1 outbreaks 40-50 years before. So, we were given the regular trivalent flu vaccine. Once enough H1N1 vaccine was available, it was provide to us ~ second week of January, 2010.
So far, there are no shortages of the trivalent, quadrivalent or high dosage seasonal influenza vaccines…if you want to see some frantic people scampering around to get the seasonal flu vaccine, watch for an announcement of a major shortage. It happens every year when there is seasonal influenza vaccine shortage…no matter how long that shortage is predicted to last.
So is the nature of some humans who are lax about getting flu vaccines…that is…until there are shortages.
O
APV:
The FDA was taking a precaution. You are begging the question yet again. There is nothing here that can be construed as proof that vaccines cause food allergy.
See my comment above. You are distorting and twisting facts to support your idiotic hypothesis that vaccines cause allergy. Given that you have been given a study that shows that allergies are lower in the vaccinated, you are also a liar.
APV,
Therefore vaccine manufacturers chuck in bucketfuls of whatever allergens they wish, and the FDA wring their hands in frustration, unable to refuse approval in the absence of specific regulations to forbid this?*
Anyway, I was responding to your claim that, “No studies have been conducted in 63 years to determine safe levels for these food proteins present in vaccines”. There are 10,875 studies listed on PubMed that mention vaccines and allergy, going back to 1932. I don’t believe you have read all these, and even if you had, not every scientific paper published is listed on PubMed.
Why would it be a scandal if they have determined safe levels and voluntarily kept food proteins in vaccines below those levels? You haven’t demonstrated that there are unsafe levels of food proteins in vaccines.
You miss my point. If your claims are correct, vaccines must have been causing food allergy at least as far back as 1967, and long before, when purification techniques were even less effective, so they cannot possibly be responsible for the increase in food allergy we appear to be seeing today. Practically everyone got the smallpox vaccine a few decades ago, and it contained more egg proteins than almost all the influenza vaccines produced since 1997.
I don’t quite understand how providing a citation that provides absolutely no support for your position is making a key point.
The only evidence you have provided of this ever happening is the Japanese incident, in which an unfortunate combination of genetics and poor manufacturing led to gelatin allergy in 1 in 100,000 people given the vaccine. How this is evidence that current vaccines are responsible for (allegedly) 1 in 13 children having food allergies, escapes me.
You presuppose that your claims are correct. I think what has happened is that the possibility of vaccines causing allergic sensitivity was examined decades ago, and found not to be a problem.
* If Sanofi Pasteur are unaware of the potential for allergic reactions to vaccines, do not use processes for removing extraneous proteins from their vaccines, and have no internal guidelines for residual proteins in the final product, I will eat my keyboard.
Vinu –
Would it concern you if vaccine makers lied about what’s in their vaccines?
I ask because you’ve admitted lying about what’s in their vaccines in order to scare parents and to attract attention to your cause. Can you explain why your lying should be considered in a different light from that which you accuse the FDA et al of (sorry about the preposition thing)?
Krebiozen #1032,
Goldis et. al.:
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749%2809%2902305-7/fulltext
“There are significant variations in the egg protein content between the different brands and different lots of flu vaccines, varying by over 100-fold in some preparations.”
There’s a 100X variation in allergen content among vendors measured during the same time period. Don’t you find that ridiculous? This is exactly what you can expect when there is no specification/enforcement.
“Therefore vaccine manufacturers chuck in bucketfuls of whatever allergens they wish …”
Vaccine makers do not add bucketfuls of allergens, they just decided not to remove the bucketfuls that were already present from the growth media.
Wyeth Lederle that made Flushield, is a not a charitable organization. They were not going to invest a billion dollars in new equipment to clean up the allergens when there was neither market pressure nor a regulatory requirement to do it.
The general public thinks all flu shots are the same. They don’t research, pick and choose vaccines based on content.
The common view is that a flu shot is a flu shot. Except that it is not.
This is my feeble attempt at bringing market pressure on vaccine makers.
https://mttmblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/flusum2014.pdf
Goldis et. al. performed the study because they were trying to find influenza vaccines that did not elicit a reaction. We know from the days of HG Wells, that elicitation doses were way more than sensitization doses.
So these vaccines that have enough allergen to cause elicitation, have more than enough to cause sensitization.
You are trying to defend the indefensible and you should know it.
“I will eat my keyboard.”
GI mucosa exposure may cause you to develop a dermal sensitivity to your keyboard …
Bad idea. We need your valuable posts …
APV, so exactly how many children died from the influenza vaccines last year? Is it as many as the number of kids the actual disease killed this year?
Would you care to specify which one is the 100-fold variation? Is that a typo for FluMist? What exact relevance does data from 1997 to 2008 have to the present, when all vaccines are under 1.2 μg/ml? Was there a time trend?
Perhaps this is clarified in the version that runs across two pages, rather than the conference abstract.
There most certainly is something ridiculous here, but it’s not what you were shooting for.
Is there a vaccine we can inject into this thread so that it becomes immune to additional troll posts and replies to trolls, or so that it has a stoke and goes into a persistent vegetative state?
Or can we infect the thread with enough VPD spores that it just up and dies?
Kevorkian?
Something. Please….
Narad #1036,
Krebiozen #1020 wrote:
“Why would we see an epidemic of egg allergy now, when historically vaccines contained far more egg protein than they do now? In 1967/8 influenza vaccines contained 7.4 micrograms ovalbumin per mL, and smallpox vaccine contained 25.8 micrograms ovalbumin per mL.”
That is why the 1997-2008 data is relevant.
“There most certainly is something ridiculous here, …”
Forget LAIV Flumist.
Looking at the max. of the other ranges, we have 38.3 and 0.31.
Which is also >100X. There are many degrees of ridiculous in the vaccine industry we have created. Take your pick.
Come on, APV, how many kids did the influenza vaccine kill last year? You come to a blog article about the flu vaccine, tell us “vaccines bad”, but then bring any concrete evidence that the vaccine is worse than the disease.
This has been a bad week. I bet you when the CDC updates its weekly report there will be more than fifteen pediatric deaths from flu. So give us the statistics on how deadly the flu vaccines are for children each year in the USA.
Correction: “but then do not bring any concrete evidence that the vaccine is worse than the disease.”
NO, jackass. You lifted the fυcking difference from the abstract. Allow me to quote it for you:
“There are significant variations in the egg protein content between the different brands and different lots of flu vaccines, varying by over 100-fold in some preparations.”
Did you really, really need another example of the dishonesty that suffuses your very being?
BTW, where did the values in your “feeble effort” come from, anyway? They can’t come from the manufacturers, as your whole point is that they don’t look at this shіt in the first place.
Narad,
#1041:
I quoted the same thing in #1034, so I don’t know what you are screaming about …
#1042: From the package inserts. The ovalbumin content for Sanofi Pasteur came from the manufacturer.
sadmar,
If you find my, and others’, replies to APV tedious, please feel free to ignore them, as I do your screeds. One man’s meat….
Whether this statement is literally true or not, it simply demonstrates again your utter ethical bankruptcy.
Who the hell do you “think” is responsible for writing the G-ddamned package inserts in the first place?
Narad #1045,
“Who the hell do you “think” is responsible for writing the G-ddamned package inserts in the first place?”
I meant Sanofi Pasteur does not include ovalbumin content on the PI and you have to request it from them. I posted their response in #532.
APV, where are the statistics showing that any influenza vaccine is more deadly to children than the disease? Has the vaccine killed as many kids as the disease this year: fifteen and rising.
Why are you ignoring those verified pediatric deaths from influenza? Are you really that heartless?
APV/Vinu Arumugham:
In #876, you said that Phuong Tang of Avantor told you that there is palm oil and coconut oil in their Polysorbate 80.
You lied.
Do you really think no one will bother to check your claims?
Why do you believe you can criticize the FDA when you are so deeply dishonest?
You might want to post a retraction, by the way. I don’t think Avantor is too happy with you. Do you have the courage, or are you as cowardly as all those researchers you criticize?
OccamsLaser #1048,
Go to:
http://www.avantormaterials.com/rightnowtechintegration.aspx
Search for: polysorbate 80 4117
Click on:
Polysorbate 80- Product Code 4117, Product Regulatory Datasheet
Page 2 has:
“Allergen/Hypersensitivities Information: The products listed do not contain wheat, rye,
oats, barley, spelt, malt, triticale, gluten, other grains, soybean, eggs, yeast, canola, dairy
products, seafood products, peanuts, natural grape products, natural flavors, artificial flavors,
celery, lactose, sulfites, elemental sulfur, preservatives, MSG, disodium guanylate/inosinate,
artificial sweeteners, phenylalanine, additives, colorants, dyes, or natural rubber (latex).
Please be advised that the product is sourced from substances of vegetable (corn, palm,
sunflower, or coconut).”
APV, how many kids are killed by the influenza vaccine. The CDC updated the verified pediatric influenza mortality and it is now up to twenty one children this season!.
So while you are thrashing about on fictional allergy issues this week at least six more kids died from influenza. That is about one kid per day who will never ever grow up. I bet you are real proud now.
So, APV, how much more dangerous is influenza vaccination compared to the actual disease. Do tell us with some actual statistics.
Once again, APV, the point goes blasting over your head at mach speeds.
From your own comment.
“Sourced from”, NOT “contains”.
It’s like saying that plastic contains crude oil because that’s what it’s made from. It’s inaccurate, to put it mildly.
You’re welcome.
Vinu Arumugham:
You publicly stated that Phuong Tang of Avantor told you that “they have palm oil and coconut oil in their Polysorbate 80.” That’s a direct quote.
You then used this claim to attempt to frighten parents, writing,
“So you know what food allergies to expect in the next wave of the epidemic.”
Of course, you know that you lied about that.
Do you think Phuong Tang and Avantor are a) happy, or b) unhappy about your spreading misinformation about them?
A direct, honest response would be refreshing.
I get it. Polysorbate 80 contains what it is sourced from through the wardrobe principle; i.e., a wardrobe, made of wood sourced from an apple grown in Narnia, itself contains Narnia (at least, sometimes). That’s my theory, and it’s mine.
I would recommend getting your shots from GSK or Bayer.
GlaxoSmithKline Dumps Live Polio Virus into Belgian Water
http://www.storyleak.com/pharmaceutical-giant-dumps-live-polio-virus-into-belgian-water/
GSK fined over vaccine trials; 14 babies reported dead
http://www.buenosairesherald.com/article/88922/gsk-lab-fined-$1m-over-tests-that-killed-14–babies
BAYER scandal – HIV Contaminated Drug – 1000’s contracted HIV
http://youtu.be/cphkD-9NUe8
Here are two bonus articles for you. One regarding Aluminum in vaccines and the other pertaining to doses:
Aluminium overload leads to chronic fatigue syndrome, macrophagic myofasciitis and subcutaneous pseudolymphoma
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22425036
Infant mortality rates regressed against number of vaccine doses routinely given: Is there a biochemical or synergistic toxicity?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170075/
Adams makes the comment that these products are produced by “a corporation of felons”. What I would like the author to do is address the comment that the pharmaceutical companies are criminal organizations. They have committed various criminal acts and have paid huge civil and criminal fines. In many cases they have doctored their studies, by omitting or including fraudulent data, and this is what people call science. To believe the studies, and claims of safety and effectiveness, produced by the very same companies selling these vaccines is insane.
Here are just two sources:
Big Pharma’s Big Fines (only in the last few years)
http://projects.propublica.org/graphics/bigpharma
Drug makers have paid $8 billion in fraud fines
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2012-03-05/health-drugmakers-fraud-fines/53372792/1
Holy carp! This thread is still going? I haven’t gone back and read the 300-some comments since I last checked, but I’m going to assume that APV is still beating the same dead horse and has not conceded the he is wrong. Am I right?
Matt, what does that have to do with vaccines? Be specific.
Also, please tell us why it is better treat hundreds of kids with influenza instead of preventing that with a vaccine? By the way, this season at least twenty one children have been verified to have died from influenza this season. Why is that okay?
Oh, I just noticed Matt’s comment #1055. I see it had too many links, none of them about any influenza vaccine. Especially since no influenza vaccine in the USA has adjuvants.
Oh, and the last link. Matt, do yourself a favor and use the search box at the top of the page to see of a paper your are spamming here has been discussed. Because the Miller/Goldman paper was the perfect example of how not to do statistics, especially when it involves cherry picking:
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2011/05/16/vaccines-and-infant-mortality-rates/
Also, they both forgot to clarify their conflicts of interests. Naughty, naughty.
OccamsLaser #1053,
“You publicly stated that Phuong Tang of Avantor told you that “they have palm oil and coconut oil in their Polysorbate 80.” That’s a direct quote.”
Avantor’s datasheet, in plain English states:
Please be advised that the product is sourced from substances of vegetable (corn, palm,
sunflower, or coconut).
They have a “do not contain” list of items and it does NOT include corn, palm,sunflower or coconut.
If their product is free of these items, why would they not be on the “do not contain” list?
“You then used this claim to attempt to frighten parents, writing,
“So you know what food allergies to expect in the next wave of the epidemic.””
I stand by that assertion and have provided the facts behind it.
Parents must be frightened by what is present in today’s vaccines.
“Do you think Phuong Tang and Avantor are a) happy, or b) unhappy about your spreading misinformation about them?”
How does quoting their publicly available documentation become “spreading misinformation”?
Julian Frost #1051,
Please explain why corn, palm, sunflower, or coconut are not on the “do not contain” list.
Twenty one kids that are dead, dead and still very dead. And, APV, you choose to ignore them. That is very sad.
So, exactly how many kids die from the influenza vaccine each year? Does it even come close to how many have died this early in the season?
Clarify sentence: Does it even come close to how many have died this early in the season from actually getting influenza?
Narad #1052,
http://www.jiaci.org/issues/vol17issue06/11.pdf
Chicken or the egg? Did cassava sensitization cause latex allergy or did latex sensitization cause cassava allergy?
With so many allergens in vaccines, we lose track of allergens and causality …
Vinu Arumugham:
You write,
“How does quoting their publicly available documentation become ‘spreading misinformation’?”
Can you read? I didn’t say your quoting from Avantor’s documentation was spreading misinformation.
I said you made an extremely specific claim: that Phuong Tang of Avantor told you directly that “they have palm oil and coconut oil in their Polysorbate 80.”
That’s a lie, isn’t it?
By telling that lie, you are spreading misinformation. And you can imagine how Avantor feels about that.
If you claim it is true, all you have to do is post the email from Phuong Tang where he tells you categorically that Avantor’s Polysorbate 80 has palm oil and coconut oil in it.
By the way, do you know the difference between “can’t be absolutely ruled out” and “definite?” If not, you might want to consult a dictionary after retracting everything you’ve posted. If you do, you are one of the most dishonest people I’ve ever come across.
Is “will be struck by lightning” on your personal “will not happen” list? That is, can you absolutely, positively rule it out? If not, by your logic, you will be struck by lightning.
You’re not really an engineer — at least, not a competent one. Engineers understand logic. And they’re generally honest. You abuse logic, and you’re dishonest.
Chris – Their safety and effectiveness are in quesiton, and I am very skeptical of a product produced by criminals, aren’t you?
As for the kids, how do you know that these children didn’t get the flu vaccine? Perhaps they did and still died. Or how do you know these kids are not immunocompromised and would have died even if they received the flu vaccine. It’s also not clear if they died from the mutated H3N2 strain. Vaccination does not equal immunization.
It’s too much to hope that this is the Matt, right?
To my knowledge, FemtoThnk has not conceded any of its pronouncements. For example, polysorbate 80 still contains peanut oil (mebbe, liek opossmu).*
* Natural language? You be the judge.
@APV:
Because vaccines don’t contain them, dimwit. Did you not read my last comment? Just as plastics are made from crude oil but don’t contain crude oil, vaccines are made from these substances but the processing means they don’t contain them.
Yet again, you are begging the question. You have made all sorts of claims that vaccines contain allergens and induce allergies, including frankly nonsensical ones that the reason for the differing allergy rates for peanuts and sesame seeds between Israel and the UK can be explained by Israeli vaccines containing sesame seed oil and British ones containing peanut oil. The “evidence” you have provided in support can politely be described as circumstantial.
You got nothin’.
Matt,
Who precisely is questioning vaccines’ safety and effectiveness? Any reputable scientists or doctors? You must surely be aware of all the independent studies on vaccines in countries all over the world that have found them to be safe and effective. Which drug companies have been found to have made false claims about vaccine safety and efficacy? What criminal convictions are you referring to?
I’m not denying that drug companies have behaved badly at times, making exaggerated claims, trying to push their products for conditions that the evidence doesn’t support etc., but I see nothing to suggest the level of deception that would be necessary to make vaccines look safe and effective if they were not.
The point is that influenza kills people, including children. It isn’t the mild illness that antivaccine zealots claim.
There is more than ample evidence that influenza vaccines are safe and effective. This systematic review of the efficacy of influenza vaccines in healthy children found that live vaccines are 83.4% effective and inactivated vaccines are 67.3% effective against similar strains. This study found that influenza vaccines are safe and effective even in children with respiratory problems. Neither study was carried out or funded by drug companies.
In the great majority of cases it does. We can prove this using blood antibody tests and by looking at the reduction in disease we see in vaccinated populations. In the first study I cited they found that vaccinated children were more than 80% less likely to get influenza than those not vaccinated. That’s a huge difference.
Any reduction in the likelihood of getting influenza is well worth the very mild sore arm that is the worst side effect I have ever had from my annual influenza vaccine.
Matt: “Their safety and effectiveness are in quesiton, and I am very skeptical of a product produced by criminals, aren’t you?”
You still have not shown any of those links were related to influenza vaccines used in the USA. Vaccines that do not contain adjuvants. And are not polio vaccines used in other countries.
“As for the kids, how do you know that these children didn’t get the flu vaccine?”
Because historically 90% of verified deaths of children from influenza have not been vaccinated: CDC Reports About 90 Percent of Children Who Died From Flu This Season Not Vaccinated.
“Or how do you know these kids are not immunocompromised and would have died even if they received the flu vaccine.”
I see you have no sympathy for children undergoing treatment for cancer. You must think they deserve to die from influenza, even if some pediatric cancer treatments are 90% effective. This makes you a very nasty person.
Now you need to come up with the PubMed indexed studies showing that any influenza vaccine used in the USA causes as much harm as the actual disease. A disease that has killed at least a hundred children in the last couple of seasons, and is already killed twenty one children.
Krebiozen repeat after me, “there are no scientific studies that prove cigarettes are harmful nor do they cause any disease. Moreover, there are no reputable doctors or scientists that have questioned their safety.”
I am a skeptic. I question things. I don’t believe what the government (FDA, NIH, CDC) tells me. I have been lied to in the past and abide by the precautionary principal. What was believed to be science at one time was later proven to be false many times over. Are vaccines in the same category? I don’t know, but I as a parent will weigh the risks and rewards and make a decision about my health and that of my family.
Keep in mind that no one is anti-vaccine, but there are some parents that are skeptical about the current number of doses administered, and the contents of those vaccines. I think everyone wants safe and effective treatment, whether it be vaccines or any other means to combat disease.
@Matt – that’s bullcrap. Plenty of folks shout that they are anti-vaccine from the highest mountains (just look over at AoA). When asked for even a single vaccine that they would consider safe, the answer is just deafening silence.
The old “pro-safe vaccine” argument is a fallacy as well – since everyone is pro-safe vaccine & at this point, no evidence has ever been provided that vaccines are anything other than safe and effective.
There is a huge difference is being a skeptic and being stupid – and you’re just on the other side of the line with the tripe of yours.
Matt: “I am a skeptic. I question things. I don’t believe what the government (FDA, NIH, CDC) tells me.”
Then why did you post those links to other “authorities” which had nothing to do with any American influenza vaccine?
“I don’t know, but I as a parent will weigh the risks and rewards and make a decision about my health and that of my family.”
What will kind of evidence will you use to make those decisions? You posted a very bad article written by a computer scientist (Goldman) and journalist (Miller), two people who have no real medical or statistical training. Why are they more believable than any epidemiologist working for a public health agency?
Just tell us who you do trust? Make sure they are qualified and reputable.
“Keep in mind that no one is anti-vaccine, but there are some parents that are skeptical about the current number of doses administered, and the contents of those vaccines.”
That number of vaccines being used was addressed in the first papers listed in Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence, it is titled “Increasing exposure to antibody-stimulating proteins and polysaccharides in vaccines is not associated with risk of autism.”
Now go through the papers in that link and tell us exactly why we should not trust the methods and/or authors. Bring up valid point, and not something like “I don’t like them” or “I don’t like where they work.”
@Matt
There are, actually, people who are anti-vaccine and proudly proclaim that they are anti-vaccine.
Matt,
Why would I repeat something that is demonstrably untrue and has been demonstrably untrue since 1956 when the British Doctors Study was published? That’s an extremely foolish or disingenuous comparison. Where are the dozens of large well-designed studies showing that tobacco is safe?
If you are who I think you are, you are no skeptic, you are a True Believer, a closed-minded fanatic who only believes the nonsense you read on antivaccine websites and dismisses anything that doesn’t fit your preconceptions.
Except the lies and shoddy science that support your prejudices, evidently.
What about all the independent researchers all over the world who have found vaccines to be safe and effective? Are they all lying too?
What have the FDA, NIH, CDC lied about specifically?
Show me anything that was later proven to be false that was supported by the quantity and quality of evidence that supports the safety and efficacy of vaccines. If all the vaccine studies that prove efficacy and safety are wrong, the number of people who must be knowingly lying and conspiring to keep the lie going must be astronomical. I don’t believe in such an enormous conspiracy and I think anyone who does is deluded.
Of course they aren’t. I don’t see how anyone can take a long hard dispassionate look at the evidence and come to the conclusions you do.
I think you have misread or misinterpreted the evidence and come to some very ill-advised conclusions that will put your children’s health at serious risk. If you don’t vaccinate your children, the best you can hope for is that they will grow up with no immunity to VPDs. Getting measles and other VPDs as an adult is no joke, so either they will be at constant risk of serious illness and death, and will have to avoid traveling outside the US, or they will have to get vaccinated. If your daughters have children they will have no protective antibodies from their mothers, and will be at grave risk of death or serious disability. What a great gift to your grandchildren.
That’s clearly not true. I have come across numerous people who claim that all vaccines are bad and even that contagious diseases are essential for good health.
Hopefully, yes. But the antivaccine movement is fundamentally dishonest, I have been through numerous vaccine websites and have found no end of blatant lies and obvious misinterpetations and distortions of the truth. No matter how many times I and others point out their lies they still keep telling them.
How is anyone supposed to make rational decisions when there is so much disinformation being peddled? Why are you contributing to the spread of misinformation instead of the truth?
OccamsLaser #1064,
That is why the correct scientific way to handle this, is to have a specification. Avantor says palm/coconut are used in the manufacture of their Polysorbate 80. They cannot guarantee the final product is free of those allergens. That is the purpose of providing an allergen statement.
Avantor could have said, our test sensitivity is say 1ng/ml.
Based on this test, perhaps they can claim that the allergen was not detected. But in the absence of such a spec., one has to assume allergens are present. We are not talking about a topical cream where you might suffer a little rash.
We are talking about injectables and life-threatening diseases. You cannot afford to make sloppy safety assumptions. You have to look at the worst case.
We know it takes only 8-18 ng/ml of casein to cause anaphylaxis.
APV, how many kids has the influenza vaccine killed this year?
The actual disease has been verified to be the cause of death of twenty one American children. So now, again, explain how the vaccine is just as deadly.
Or are you going to dismiss those deaths by saying they deserved to die because of imperfect immune systems? Which is ironic on how you go on and on about allergies.
Come on, APV, stop ignoring the real deaths from influenza! Are you that heartless?
Oh, wait, you are.
Krebiozen #1075,
“I don’t believe in such an enormous conspiracy and I think anyone who does is deluded.”
The belief that the Earth was flat was not a conspiracy.
A large group of people could be wrong without a conspiracy.
Like the CIA group-think Iraq WMD. Many people blindly trust the FDA/CDC. If the FDA/CDC are wrong, then a lot of people are going to be wrong in their beliefs, without the need for a conspiracy.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/11/does-the-vaccine-matter/307723/?single_page=true
“Jackson’s findings showed that outside of flu season, the baseline risk of death among people who did not get vaccinated was approximately 60 percent higher than among those who did, lending support to the hypothesis that on average, healthy people chose to get the vaccine, while the “frail elderly” didn’t or couldn’t. In fact, the healthy-user effect explained the entire benefit that other researchers were attributing to flu vaccine, suggesting that the vaccine itself might not reduce mortality at all.”
Julian Frost #1068,
Let’s see if we can make this simpler. Consider just oats and palm. Avantor says oats are not used and thus the final product does not contain oats. Oats is listed in the “do not contain” list.
Palm is used in the manufacture of Avantor’s Polysorbate 80.
You claim that the final product does not contain palm.
So, why is palm not listed along with oats in the “do not contain” list?
Krebiozen #1069,
” …but I see nothing to suggest the level of deception that would be necessary to make vaccines look safe and effective if they were not. ”
As I wrote in #656, the Cervarix vaccine trial involved injecting the control group with the Havrix vaccine or aluminum hydroxide. One vaccine is complex enough, why throw in another vaccine which is a complex variable into the study? Looks like deception/obfuscation?
Chris #1073,
“That number of vaccines being used was addressed in the first papers listed in Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence, it is titled “Increasing exposure to antibody-stimulating proteins and polysaccharides in vaccines is not associated with risk of autism.”
“too many vaccines
overwhelming the immune system”
Is just one aspect of too many vaccines.
Where are the studies showing the safety of multiple food allergens, multiple adjuvants AND vaccine antigens injected simultaneously in one sitting? That too on an increasingly atopic population. What happens with self-antigens, epitope spreading, with so much tissue trauma also at the same time?
Krebiozen #1075,
“What have the FDA, NIH, CDC lied about specifically?”
The FDA admits that they don’t know how vaccines work.
Yet, they claim that “the benefits outweigh the risk”.
If you don’t even know how it works, how can you claim to know the benefits/risks?
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM133539.pdf
“The exact immunologic mechanism by which ROTARIX
protects against rotavirus gastroenteritis is unknown ..”
Oh, you’re saying that the “Does not contain” list doesn’t have those items on them. I see now.
The answer is likely that those documents are written by lawyers, not chemists. Given the way it’s processed, I doubt that those substances are in there.
APV, you are talking utter bunkum.
We are hit with more antigens in a few minutes than there are in the ENTIRE vaccine schedule. “Too many, too soon” is a lie, a ghost, a phantom, a chimera.
As for your comment in #1082, you are once again selectively quoting the facts. We have known the general principle of how vaccines work for 200+ years. The fact that
does not mean that the broad mechanisms aren’t.
There are these amazing things called “clinical trials”. Patients are assigned to two groups, one receiving the treatment, the other a placebo, and both groups are closely monitored. In that way, we learn if the treatment works or not, and if it causes unacceptable side effects.
One last thing: scientists don’t yet fully understand how gravity works. Yet hundreds of experiments show it exists. Just because we don’t fully understand something doesn’t make it untrue.
APV,
How can you compare a belief that was based on nothing but anecdotal observations, and that was abandoned more than 2,000 years before the development of the scientific method as we now understand it, to the belief that vaccines are safe and effective? That’s a ridiculous comparison.
There are numerous large, well-designed studies that have looked at the association between various vaccines and various adverse events. They have found that there is no association, or that serious adverse events are very rare.
For the conclusions of these studies to be incorrect, there must be something serious wrong with all those studies. The only way I can see that possibly happening is for every one of the authors of those studies to be part of a conspiracy to hide the truth.
Another ludicrous comparison. Were there several scientific papers demonstrating the presence of WMDs in Iraq beyond reasonable doubt? IIRC it was based on a single master’s dissertation.
If you take a look at the FDA and CDC websites you will see that their positions are based on peer-reviewed evidence, that they give copious references to. If you check those references you will find that they do actually say what the CDC/FDA claim they do (unlike the papers cited on endless antivaccine websites that often say the exact opposite of what they claim – they hope you won’t check). It would require a massive conspiracy for all those scientific papers to be wrong.
APV,
Does the influenza vaccine reduce mortality in the elderly? Yes, very probably, though perhaps not as much as some have claimed. It’s a difficult thing to assess, as the elderly have a lot of background noise, mortality-wise. Personally I think preventing influenza is worthwhile even if it doesn’t affect mortality.
Does this mean that the CDC and FDA are liars who should not be believed? Of course not.
Legal ass-covering? Because they didn’t see the need to test for it since palm allergy is uncommon? Who knows? What we do know is that it would be dishonest to claim that it definitely contains palm oil on this basis.
Aaargh, I hate blockquote fails!!!
APV: “Where are the studies showing the safety of multiple food allergens, multiple adjuvants AND vaccine antigens injected simultaneously in one sitting?”
You seem to have a reading comprehension problem, and ignored my question addressed to you.
Again, how many kids has the influenza vaccine killed this year? Stop stalling and answer the question.
Let’s cut to the chase, APV:
Can you offer any credible evidence that the risks (any risk, includng but not limited to food allergies) associated with routine vaccination (any vacination, including but not limited to seasonal influenza vaccination) exceeds the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to infection?
Because if not, your entire argument ultimately takes no form other than “Ooooh…vaccine ingredients! Scary stuff!”
Here are two sources related to RISKS. There are many more, but I start with these. Hopefully, they are from a source that you trust.
Of couse any study can be doctored, and two or more Merck/GSK/Bayer scientists or Pharma funded professors can constitute a peer-reviewed study.
Aluminium overload leads to chronic fatigue syndrome, macrophagic myofasciitis and subcutaneous pseudolymphoma
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22425036
Infant mortality rates regressed against number of vaccine doses routinely given: Is there a biochemical or synergistic toxicity?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170075/
@matt
your second source has a correction noted, indicating a problem to me for confirmation bias.
@matt – the search box is your friend.
I’ll also say that in #2 – the definition of “infant mortality” was not standard across the countries that were examined & it was not corrected for in the study – so it’s garbage.
I appreciate the peer-review of the Infant mortality study. Now, what say you about the first study regarding aluminum?
Matt again cites two papers.
First is “Aluminium overload leads to chronic fatigue syndrome, macrophagic myofasciitis and subcutaneous pseudolymphoma”
As I noted multiple times there are no adjuvants in any American influenza vaccine. But I will provide a layman’s definition of “macrophagic myofasciitis and subcutaneous pseudolymphoma”… it means a sore arm, that might be a bit swollen. Oh, and a single case report cannot determine if being tired was caused by the vaccine.
And the second being: “Infant mortality rates regressed against number of vaccine doses routinely given: Is there a biochemical or synergistic toxicity?” Again, the undynamic duo of Gary Goldman and Neil Miller. The former is a computer scientists whose PhD came from a diploma mill, and the latter a journalist who runs the ThinkTwice antivaccine group. Take note that they initially failed to note their obvious conflicts of interests.
Neither of them have any medical/statistical credentials. Why are they more believable than any epidemiologist working for a public health agency?
@Matt:
Your quote:
>blockquote>I am very skeptical of a product produced by criminals, aren’t you?
http://jalopnik.com/honda-fined-record-70-million-for-not-reporting-1-700-1678267036/+aleksanderchan
Do you still drive a car?
Here is the link to the correction of Goldman and Miller’s paper:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3463891/?report=reader
Also, the treatment of that paper here:
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2011/05/16/vaccines-and-infant-mortality-rates/
Rats! I posted a link to the correction of Goldman and Miller’s silly infant mortality paper, and to how it was treated in this blog.
I’ll try the latter again, see if Matt will figure out why I said the things I said about upthread:
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2011/05/16/vaccines-and-infant-mortality-rates/
This thread is a masterpiece. Except now I’m out of popcorn.
Testing… testing. For some reason two of my comments have simply disappeared.
Vinu Arumugham:
You seem to have a great deal of difficulty understanding written materials. This is shown by, for example, your complete failure to directly address the question I asked.
So I’ll ask it again, and I’ll keep it simple:
You posted that Phuong Tang of Avantor told you directly that “they have palm oil and coconut oil in their Polysorbate 80.”
Is it true ot false that Phuong Tang of Avantor told you “they have palm oil and coconut oil in their Polysorbate 80?”
Please try to focus on this simple question.
Is it true or false that he told you that?
Vinu Arumugham:
You seem to have a great deal of difficulty understanding written materials. This is shown by, for example, your complete failure to directly address the question I asked.
So I’ll ask it again, and I’ll keep it simple:
You posted that Phuong Tang of Avantor told you directly that “they have palm oil and coconut oil in their Polysorbate 80.”
Is it true ot false that Phuong Tang of Avantor told you “they have palm oil and coconut oil in their Polysorbate 80?”
Please try to focus on this simple question.
Is it true or false that he told you that?
Apologies for the duplicate comment.
Matt,
‘Aluminum overload’ – I don’t think that means what the paper’s authors think it means. It certainly is not characterized by finding aluminum at the injection site of aluminum-adjuvanted vaccines, a finding that I don’t find surprising. I don’t believe that a milligram of injected aluminum salts can cause aluminum overload at all, when you consider that we absorb about the same amount of aluminum every day from food as we do from an intramuscular vaccine, and more than 5 times as much from a single dose of an aluminum-containing antacid.
Macrophagic myofasciitis may be real, but it is very rare, far rarer than severe sequelae to VPDs.
I can’t add much to what others have said about this execrable paper, but you might consider that states with more hurricane shelters have more hurricanes. Do hurricane shelters cause hurricanes? Similarly, do you think countries with more infant contagious diseases might be motivated to introduce more vaccines?
@TBruce – Yes, but not a Honda.
@TBruce
Would you purchase a vaccine from Merck?
Merck’s Vioxx killed 60,000, not to mention the Americans that suffered Vioxx-induced heart attacks and strokes, and many more were permanently disabled.
http://www.forbes.com/2005/08/19/merck-vioxx-graham_cx_mh_0819graham.html
11 infant deaths now linked to hepatitis B vaccines in China
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2013/12/27/11-infant-deaths-now-linked-to-hepatitis-B-vaccines-in-China/UPI-37121388160648/
———————————————
Would you purchase a vaccine from GlaxoSmithKline?
GSK fined over vaccine trials; 14 babies reported dead.
http://www.buenosairesherald.com/article/88922/gsk-fined-over-vaccine-trials-14–babies-reported-dead
GlaxoSmithKline document Reveals Death Of At Least 36 Infants After Infanrix Hexa Vaccine
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/11/13/document-reveals-death-of-at-least-36-infants-after-infanrix-hexa-vaccine/
GlaxoSmithKline’s Zyban Linked To at least 35 Deaths
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/apr/26/smoking.medicalscience
———————————————
Would you purchase a vaccine from Novartis?
Italy suspends Fluad flu vaccine from Novartis after deaths
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30240620
Matt, there was an updated to the Italian Fluad story: No evidence that Fluad vaccine caused deaths in Italy.
Vioxx was not a vaccine, and it is one case which was badly handled. There are some who miss that medication because it worked for them, and they did not have the heart condition that would have caused harm.
And none of those have to do with any influenza vaccine used in the USA on children.
As of this week there have been twenty one verified pediatric deaths from influenza in the USA. What you need to do is show that any influenza vaccine approved for use on children in the USA has caused as much injury as the disease.
This means actually getting data on the actual vaccines used on children for influenza in the USA. Not on elderly persons in Italy. Not experimenat pneumococcal vaccines in Hispanoamérica. Not smoking cessation medications in the UK. Not hepatitis vaccines used in China. And not to pain meds that were removed from the market.
Do you understand?
Would you believe a comment from Matt?
I believe he will avoid answering questions that require actual influenza statistics. He seems to just want to play “poison the well.”
Of course, that does not stop him from posting a link to the ridiculous Goldman/Miller study where neither had initially declared their conflict of interests… which he did twice.
Really? You’re going to pull the geography card now. Foreign deaths don’t matter.
What I’m suggesting is that there are cases of death from vaccines and other products made by the companies that you purchase your vaccines from. There is a history of illicit and complicit behavior. In my mind, the products created by these companies pose a clear and present risk.
Like I said, you weight the risks and rewards. I am just pointing out that there ARE risks. You may find them small, but they still exist.
Matt: “Really? You’re going to pull the geography card now. Foreign deaths don’t matter.”
Look at the title at the top of the page. What does it say? It starts with “The CDC.” Those initials stand for Centers for Disease Control, and it is a public health agency that is paid by taxes by the United States of America government. Not Europe, not China and not Latin America.
Now look at the rest of the title, it is about the influenza vaccine. Not arthritis pain, not hepatitis, not smoking, and not pneumococcal bacterial diseases.
So this article about influenza vaccines used only in the USA. I just happened to choose pediatric deaths because they are investigated.
“There is a history of illicit and complicit behavior. In my mind, the products created by these companies pose a clear and present risk.”
Which is poisoning the well, and has nothing to do with influenza vaccine in the USA. Major companies have divisions, and what happens in one part has nothing to do with the other. General Electric makes appliances, jet engines and owns a television network. They have separate management, and the actions of the jet engine division has nothing to do with their toasters. They also have divisions all over the world, because they just happen to manufacture products elsewhere. Though I doubt you will get a GE toaster manufactured in Europe to even plug into an outlet in the USA.
So unless you can prove that the European divisions or the other non-vaccine pharmaceutical departments have some kind bearing on influenza vaccines used in the USA, you are going to have to stick to the subject. This means influenza vaccines used only in the USA.
Oh, and after posting papers from biased anti-vax authors who did not declare their conflicts: you have no standing to dictate what morality tests are used.
Krebiozen #1087,
“By using these as placebos they could see what the effects of the HPV proteins in the vaccine were in isolation from the effects of the other vaccine ingredients.”
No, the other ingredients are NOT common to both vaccines.
So this claim is invalid. Obfuscation seems like the only logical explanation.
“Using these placebos reduced the number of variables, it didn’t increase them.”
Wrong, in this case.
” The FDA admits that they don’t know how vaccines work.
Yet, they claim that “the benefits outweigh the risk”.
If you don’t even know how it works, how can you claim to know the benefits/risks?
You cannot be serious. As Julian pointed out, that’s what clinical trials are for.”
As I have shown for Cervarix, vaccine trials are of questionable value and prone to manipulation.
And if you bring up post-marketing surveillance, it is basically a euphemism for the general public being guinea pigs for the FDA’s vaccine experiments. Since we know so little about vaccines, *every* childhood illness must be reported to the VAERS. Otherwise, how would long term effects of vaccines ever be detected?
Chris #1111,
In today’s economy, your USA influenza vaccine probably contains Polysorbate 80 made by a noname company in China.
JGC #1090,
See #193.
Krebiozen #1087,
“Legal ass-covering? Because they didn’t see the need to test for it since palm allergy is uncommon? Who knows? What we do know is that it would be dishonest to claim that it definitely contains palm oil on this basis.”
Julian Frost #1084,
“The answer is likely that those documents are written by lawyers, not chemists. Given the way it’s processed, I doubt that those substances are in there.”
If the Polysorbate 80 was allergen free, why would they need legal cover?
The reality is, this is a real factory producing real products. Not a textbook process. The chemist and lawyers agreed, that they CANNOT guarantee the final product is free of these allergens. Manufacturers cut corners all the time to stay competitive. They only need to meet specifications set by their customers. No allergen spec., means no allergen testing. Perhaps they turn the pressure/temperature down in the process to save money. If the product still meets customer spec., they will ship it even if it contains plenty of allergen residue.
Peanut as a source for Polysorbate 80 would be too “hot” to handle. So they probably moved away from “hot” alergens to use palm, coconut etc. Claiming palm allergy is uncommon covers only the elicitation side.
Palm allergy seems to be picking up, thanks to widespread injection of palm contaminated vaccines. It has not hit the literature radar yet …
@Chris I will concede if you take such a myopic point of view and narrow your sample size you can come to any conclusion.
FYI, American taxes pay for a majority of the WHO budget, which then distributes funds to many international organizations. As of 2012, the largest annual assessed contribution to the WHO was from the United States of $110 million.
BTW, Chris I posted a link from the NIH website where possible conflicts of interest were listed, and I acknowledged that the study was flawed and did not hang my hat on the results.
The other study about aluminum has held water and is directly related, since the flu vaccine in America contains aluminum.
I like how you pick and choose what to address, then work to discredit based on one reference and ignore anything that might challenge your beliefs.
Here’s one specifically for you from the HSRA and DOJ in America! 40 children were damaged from only 2/16/14-5/15/14. There is one death, but many children got Guillain-Barré Syndrome or Transverse myelitis from the flu vaccine. I’m not sure which is worse: a progressive life debilitating disease that can result in death or death.
http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/dojpresentation.pdf
Mechanism and results are different questions. We knew that aspirin was useful as a painkiller and to reduce fever well before we had any idea of the biochemistry involved. You don’t need the germ theory of disease to boil your drinking water (and maybe serve it as weak tea instead of plain).
Julian Frost #1085,
“too many vaccines
overwhelming the immune system”
You misunderstood my comment. Researchers keep focusing on preaching that too many vaccine antigens are not a problem. Maybe they are not a problem.
The real problem is that no none is focusing on the fact that real vaccines don’t just contain vaccine antigens. We don’t even understand how vaccine work. Where are the studies showing the complex interaction of dozens of excipients in 5 vaccines injected simultaneously?
“The fact that
The exact immunologic mechanism by which ROTARIX protects against rotavirus gastroenteritis is unknown
does not mean that the broad mechanisms aren’t.
If you don’t even know how it works, how can you claim to know the benefits/risks?
There are these amazing things called “clinical trials”. Patients are assigned to two groups, one receiving the treatment, the other a placebo, and both groups are closely monitored.”
“Amazing clinical trials” are a textbook fairy tale. As I wrote in #656, it is a manipulated joke in reality.
WebMD describes placebo as:
“What all placebos have in common is that they do not contain an active substance meant to affect health.”
The Havrix vaccine was used as a “placebo” in the Cervarix vaccine trial. Unless you want to claim that GSK’s Havrix “vaccine” is just saline …
Julian Frost #1085,
“does not mean that the broad mechanisms aren’t.”
If you only understand the broad mechanism, it does not give you license to make broad claims like “benefits outweigh the risks”. As any scientist knows, the devil is in the details.
Quantum gravity is poorly understood, but we don’t have to worry too much about it because those scientists are not injecting quantum black holes into our kids claiming the benefits outweigh the risks …
Vinu Arumugham:
You’re ducking my question. The reason is obvious; it’s because you’re terrified of giving a truthful answer. Every time you evade simple, direct questions like this it further destroys your credibility with anyone who will ever read this thread.
You posted that Phuong Tang of Avantor told you directly that “they have palm oil and coconut oil in their Polysorbate 80.”
Is it true or false that Phuong Tang of Avantor told you “they have palm oil and coconut oil in their Polysorbate 80?”
Please try to focus on this simple question.
Is it true or false that he told you that?
Vinu Arumugham:
You wrote,
“The Havrix vaccine was used as a ‘placebo’ in the Cervarix vaccine trial.”
Please provide the exact quotation from the Cervarix trial that states that Havrix “was used as a placebo” in that trial. Note that the quotation must specifically use the word “placebo,” because that’s the word you used.
If you evade this, it will indicate that you are lying again. So think about that when deciding whether to run away again out of fear.
@APV #1115:
Maybe to comply with laws that demand it? Maybe to guard against frivolous lawsuits?
Actually, you’re quite wrong about that. To properly mass produce anything, you need a clear, well-defined process. That holds for cars, ice cream sandwiches and yes, vaccines.
Two words: quality control. If the samples fail quality control, the entire batch gets thrown out. That wastes money. Cutting corners is often a false economy.
Citation needed. Yet again, you are assuming that vaccines induce allergies. You still haven’t provided anything that rises to the standard of proof.
#1118:
And as was explained to you multiple times, you got it wrong.
#1119:
A complete non-sequitor. As Vicki in Comment #1117 pointed out:
To paraphrase a meme, You know nothing, APV. You have shown your ignorance of history, medicine, clinical trials and manufacturing. Your hypothesis lacks prior plausibility, your evidence is circumstantial, and I’m being kind.
APV,
Is that a serious question? Every test has its limits of sensitivity, and it is impossible for them to claim there is not a single molecule of palm or coconut in the final product.
You are still trying to distract from your deliberate lie, that polysorbate 80 definitely contains palm oil and coconut oil.
The elicitation side is what matters.
You know this how?
How can you make such absolute claims based on pure speculation? It’s ridiculous. You don’t know that vaccines are contaminated with palm, much less that it is causing allergies. It would be funny if misinformation like this didn’t put children’s lives at risk.
APV,
Cervarix contains:
20 mcg of HPV type 16 L1 protein
20 mcg of HPV type 18 L1 protein,
50 mcg of the 3-O-desacyl-4’-monophosphoryl lipid A (MPL)
0.5 mg of aluminum hydroxide.
4.4 mg of sodium chloride
0.624 mg of sodium 297 dihydrogen phosphate dihydrate.
Each dose may also contain residual amounts of insect cell and viral protein (<40 ng) and bacterial cell protein (<150 ng) from the manufacturing process.
Havrix contains:
1440 EL.U. of viral antigen, adsorbed on 0.5 mg of aluminum as aluminum hydroxide.
720 EL.U. of viral antigen, adsorbed onto 0.25 mg of aluminum as aluminum hydroxide.
Amino acid supplement (0.3% w/v)
phosphate-buffered saline solution
polysorbate 20 (0.05 mg/mL).
HAVRIX also contains residual MRC-5 cellular proteins (not more than 5 mcg/mL), formalin (not more than 0.1 mg/mL), and neomycin sulfate (not more than 40 ng/mL), an aminoglycoside antibiotic included in the cell growth media.
So each vaccine contains viral antigens, aluminum hydroxide adjuvant, a buffer solution and tiny traces of some other ingredients. I would say Havrix and aluminum hydroxide are excellent choices to compare Cervarix to.
You’re nitpicking. This is the usual way of testing vaccine safety and I see nothing wrong with it. If you used saline you wouldn’t know if any local reactions were due to the antigen or the adjuvant, and we know the safety profile of Havrix from previous clinical trials, so it is a good choice for a comparison.
You have shown nothing of the sort.
Safety studies on tens of thousands of people are carried out before vaccines are approved to pick up common adverse events. Post marketing surveillance is the only practical way to look for rare adverse events in millions of people – have you any idea how much a clinical trial of millions of people would cost? This is the best way of balancing risks against benefits. Delaying the introduction of a vaccine that we know will save lives to look for very rare adverse events makes little sense.
It is ironic that “pro safe tax” (by their spots or stripes they are anti-vax) apologists condemn science as flawed because it admits its errors and corrects them as it better understands what it investigates. Saying, “science used to say the earth was flat,” does not prove that vaccines are not as safe as we can make them, nor does it prove that researchers are not continually re-evaluating them. It actually suggests that, as new data suggests methods to make vaccination safer and more effective, scientists will change vaccines to improve their safety and security effectiveness.
I was terribly upset when they removed Vioxx from the market. It was the first time in my life that I felt well in recent memory. No other pain killer has been as a effective. A part of me was willing to accept the risk if there would have been a way to watch for it and discontinue the drug before permanent damage occurred.
@Mrs Woo
Vioxx was a case study we looked at during my regulatory affairs studies. Frankly, I don’t think that it should have been removed from market, since it was a very effective drug that worked where others didn’t, and that properly used and tracked, the benefits outweighed the risks. Its withdrawal was largely due to bad PR, and Merck has themselves to blame for that. It’s a good lesson for corporations: misbehave and there will be significant negative consequences and lots of money lost. What should have happened was that FDA should have required a very strongly worded black box warning on it, and holding doctors at least partially responsible for how their patients are using it. If they were to have a patient on Vioxx, they should do pretty frequent monitoring.
APV @ 1114
Unless you’re explicitly admitting you are offering no argument other than “Oooh, vaccine ingredients! Scary stuff!” you’ve clearly mistyped the number of the post you advised I review as your post at 193 offered no evidence that that that the risks (any risk, includng but not limited to food allergies) associated with routine vaccination (any vacination, including but not limited to seasonal influenza vaccination) exceeds the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to infection.
Which is it?
APV @ 1118
We may not have identified the exact molecular mechanisms by which exposure to the live attenuated virus used in Rotarix results in the generation of neutralizing antibodies, but that’s hardly the same thing as not knowing how it or other vaccines work.
By direct observation and quantitation, perhaps? See, there’s these things we in science like to call “clinical trials” and “epidemiologic studies”…
You’ve writtehat, perhaps, but you’ve offered nothing which suggests what you’ve written is accurate. Care to try to support your case that all clinical trials without exception represent nothing other than manipulated jokes with actual evidence, or is this just another unsupported asertion of personal faith on your part?
The Havrix vaccine is directed against hepatitus A, the Cervarix vaccine is directed against human pappiloma virus. You really can’t comprehend understand the significance of this disntinction, and why it means havarix is a suitable placebo treatment when examining Cervarix safety and efficacy?
Two things have become clear from your many posts:
First, to paraphrase Will Rogers your problem is far less what you don’t know as much as it is all the things you think you know for certain that simply ain’t so.
Second, to convince you to revise your position it will not be enough to explain the evidence demonstrating your wrong to you–we’d have to (somehow) understand it for you as well.
RE: Vioxx and black box warnings:
Agreed. In the clinical trials there was no significant difference in mortality between the cohort receiving Vioxx and the cohort receiving naproxen, and there was no significant difference in the rate of myocardial infarction in patients receiving Vioxx and naproxen who were not previously identified as being at identified at being at increased risk of heart attack. The increased risk was associated only with patients who met criteria for low-dose aspirin prophylaxis of secondary cardiovascular events (those who had had previous myocardial infarctions, angina, cerebrovascular accident, transient ischemic attack, or coronary artery bypass).
In short, it’s safe and very effective unless you’re already at a significantly increased risk of having a heart attack, but contraindicated if you are.
But teh critical thing this demonstrates regarding post-marketing surveillance is that it works It detected the increase risk in a limited sub-population of all patients receiving Vioxx.
With respect to vaccines, consider the encephalopathy associated with MMR vaccine< which occurs with an incidence of 1 in every 1 million vaccinations received. If food allergies really were associated with vaccination, at incidence levels sufficient to drive the increase in food allergies APV seems to believe is occurring, post mraketing surveillance would have no problem detecting that association.
Matt: “FYI, American taxes pay for a majority of the WHO budget”
And does the title say “WHO” or does it say “CDC”?
“The other study about aluminum has held water and is directly related, since the flu vaccine in America contains aluminum.”
And for the fourth or fifth time NO American influenza vaccine contains adjuvants: “Seasonal influenza vaccines used in the United States do not contain adjuvants.”
And the “aluminum bad” argument is still stupid. It is just as bad as “this company did something bad in another country, therefor all of its products are bad!” (So please stop watching TV, using a washing machine or flying a jet plane because GE did something bad somewhere).
And using the incredibly lax vaccine compensation rulings by the NVICP is really lame. Between 2006 to March 2014 they compensated compensated 699 claims out of over 809,000,000 influenza doses. That is less one claim out of over a million doses, most of them settlements where it was just the timing.
APV: “In today’s economy, your USA influenza vaccine probably contains Polysorbate 80 made by a noname company in China”
Ooooh, instead of telling me how many children have been injured in the USA by the influenza vaccine and comparing it to the over twenty pediatric deaths from the actual disease… APV tells me it “probably” contained some random ingredient.
APV and Matt, you still need to prove an American influenza vaccine is more dangerous than the disease with real relevant and verifiable data.
@Chris – Influenza is not dangerous at all. How many kids came down with life-long debilitating diseases from contracting influenza? None that I can find. How many kids died from influenza? 12
If you want to talk numbers and get scientific (not heartless) and talk statistical significance, 12 deaths / 25 million (0-5 y.o. in US) = 0.000048%. Or you can use 12 deaths / 75 million (0-17 y.o. in US) = 0.000016%. In any scientific study that is statistically insignificant. Does every child’s life matter? Yes! We also have to separate science from emotional reactions.
The point is that among a population a statistically insignificant number of children died of the influenza rendering the vaccine unnecessary. These 12 children are outliers. Influenza is not a dangerous disease by any scientific measure.
Matt, if someone murdered your children, would you object if the judge let them off because he didn’t kill more than 0.00002% of the US population?
Now tell me, how many people did the flu vaccine kill this year?
Let’s see, there were 129 pediatric (age less than 5 years) deaths in 2014. During the current flu season, Since Sept. 28, there have been 26 pediatric flu deaths thru Jan. 3, 2015. Doesn’t sound like a “not dangerous at all” disease.
Wrong denominator. If you can figure out why, then come back and we’ll continue talking.
And while you’re figuring out why your denominator is wrong, you may want to learn what “statistically significant/insignificant” means, because you clearly don’t.
@Gray Your analogy is ludicrous. Like I said. Let’s talk science. Don’t get emotional on me.
If you want to talk absolute numbers, 699 were injured from the flu vaccine (Compensable) and it was proven in court from 2006 to Present.
1 child died among 40 children who were damaged from the flu vaccine from only 2/16/14-5/15/14. Like I said Guillain-Barré Syndrome is probably worse than death. I would prefer death than being tortured to death. The 12 deaths were not proven in court, and less verifiable than 699 or 40. Number of life-debilitating conditions from contracting the flu: 0.
Matt: “@Chris – Influenza is not dangerous at all. How many kids came down with life-long debilitating diseases from contracting influenza? None that I can find. How many kids died from influenza? 12 ”
Do you have some kind reading comprehension problem? You have been given this link multiple times: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/ . This time actually click on it and read the graph of pediatric deaths from influenza.
It has been updated, it is now twenty six dead children (math hint: that is more than twice “12”). The last two years it was over a hundred each year. It is early in the flu season and more than a quarter of that number have died already.
Now come up with the verifiable statistics that shows any American influenza vaccine approved for children causes at least a hundred deaths per year.
In the mean time read Vaccine Preventable Disease – The Forgotten Story.
@Matt: Human lives are at stake. I have every need to be emotional.
Now, where is the source for your absurd claim that nobody has ever had a “life-debilitating conditions from contracting the flu”? Answer or I assume you made it up out of whole cloth.
Matt,
First off, the supposed link between Guillain-Barré Syndrome and flu vaccine was looked at and found to be nonexistent.
Second off, inflammation of the heart muscle (myocarditis), and inflammation of the sac around the heart (pericarditis) are both complications of flu. It can also worsen chronic conditions.
When you wrote “Number of life-debilitating conditions from contracting the flu: 0”, you were stating a falsity. But I suppose that isn’t that surprising.
Matt: “1 child died among 40 children who were damaged from the flu vaccine from only 2/16/14-5/15/14.”
I did not find that in the powerpoint you linked to. Instead I see:
“Total Petitions Filed in the United States Court of Federal
Claims this reporting period: 122
A. Minors: 40
B. Adults: 82″
Followed by:
A. Compensated: 78
i. Cases conceded by HHS: 11
1. Decision awarding damages: 0
2. Decision adopting Proffer: 11
3. Decision adopting Settlement: 0
ii. Cases not conceded by HHS: 67
1. Decision awarding damages: 0
2. Decision adopting Proffer: 3
3. Decision adopting Settlement: 64”
The adjudicated judgement settlement lists one death from flu vaccine, but it does not say if it was an adult or child, only that it took six years. It was just one of those cases that comes under “ii. Cases not conceded by HHS: 67” and “3. Decision adopting Settlement: 64”
Now you still have to prove that the vaccine causes more damage than the disease. A disease that has killed over two dozen kids this year on its march to over a hundred by the end of the season.
Matt @1133:
You admit that the flu vaccine has killed no children, and that influenza kills children every year. That sounds like a strong argument *for* vaccination, to me.
Then you start talking about numbers of children allegedly injured by the vaccine. The appropriate comparison there is people who are injured by influenza, including high fever and cases that lead to bronchitis and pneumonia.
You don’t get to exclude children from the comparison *because the disease killed them, and they didn’t survive to have possible long-term debilitating effects.*
JGC #1128,
When a patient on Vioxx dies, the doctors reported it.
When a child is diagnosed with food allergy, no one reports it to the VAERS.
That is why post marketing surveillance is useless for the vaccine/food allergy connection.
And when a child dies from influenza, it is investigated. When a parent claims a child died from a vaccine it is reported to VAERS and/or the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. The NVICP does keep their records public.
So, APV, you have no excuse to not have access to the statistics on injuries caused by a vaccine. So you need to find those verifiable statistics to show that any influenza vaccine approved for use on American children causes more harm than the disease.
A disease that killed over a hundred kids last year, and has killed at least twenty six children this year.
Stop making excuses.
Julian Frost #1136,
“First off, the supposed link between Guillain-Barré Syndrome and flu vaccine was looked at and found to be nonexistent.”
Let me get this straight. Influenza vaccine does not cause GBS but it carries a GBS warning.
Polysorbate 80 contains no palm allergens but it carries a sourced from palm warning.
Vaccines have been shown to cause food allergies since 1952 but they DO NOT carry a food allergy warning?
How does this twisted logic work?
Mrs Woo #1125,
Vaccines are not just a science problem. The science will probably do just fine if left to itself.
The FDA has to convince people to vaccinate in order to achieve herd immunity.
There are two ways to achieve it:
The hard way: Make vaccines safe. Discuss any problems openly. Convince people to vaccinate.
The easy way: Obfuscate, sweep stuff under the carpet, make claims of benefits outweighing risk with no scientific basis, etc. The FDA has chosen this way. Is it any wonder that more and more people distrust the FDA?
OccamsLaser #1121,
Krebiozen #1087 was the first to use “placebo” to describe the Havrix vaccine. Why don’t you accuse Krebiozen of lying?
APV, what are the relative risk between the vaccine and the disease?
Right now we know that influenza has killed twenty six kids. Last year it killed more than a hundred kids. Where are the statistics showing any vaccine for influenza approved for children used in the USA caused more harm?
JGC #1127,
You did not understand #193. Let me repeat. The solution to vaccine safety problems is not to stop vaccinating.
The solution is to fix the vaccine safety problems. So your question is irrelevant.
Why do I care about vaccine safety problems, if not vaccinating was a viable option?
Here are more questionable clinical trials:
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM224555.pdf
“In the largest of these studies (HAV 231) conducted in the US, 1,241 children 15 months of age were randomized to receive: Group 1) HAVRIX alone; Group 2) HAVRIX concomitantly with measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine (manu factured by Merck and Co.) and varicella vaccine (manufactured by Merck and Co.); or Group 3) MMR and varicella vaccines. Subjects in Group 3 who received MMR and varicella vaccines received the first dose of HAVRIX 42 days later”.
More obfuscation.
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM336020.pdf
“Reactogenicity data from a small Phase 2 trial (Study 5) in adults 18 through 49 years of age, 153 of whom received Flublok 135mcg, are not presented.”
This vaccine contains 135 mcg of HA. But it sounds like a different vaccine’s study is being reported in the package insert?
“For the 2014-2015 influenza season it is formulated to contain 135 mcg HA per 0.5 mL dose”
Clinical trials raise more questions than they seem to answer …
“The Havrix vaccine is directed against hepatitus A, the Cervarix vaccine is directed against human pappiloma virus.”
Cervarix itself has many excipients – variables. If the intention was to gain useful information, you will always try to reduce the number of variables. Here they increased the number of variables and the only logical explanation for that is obfuscation.
APV, there is actual evidence that has been posted several times that influenza has killed twenty six children this early in the influenza season.
Where is the real verifiable evidence that any vaccine approved to prevent influenza in children in the USA has caused as many deaths? Why are you ignoring those deaths? Why do you refuse to provide real verifiable evidence that the vaccines are dangerous?
APV, why won’t you tell us how may kids influenza vaccines have killed?
The actual disease has been verified in the death of twenty six kids in this season. It is on its way to killing over a hundred kids this year like the last couple of years.
Where are the actual statistics on the harm you are claiming for the influenza vaccines approved for children in the USA? Do they actually exist?
APV, why won’t you tell us how may kids influenza vaccines have killed?
The actual disease has been verified in the death of twenty six kids in this season. It is on its way to killing over a hundred kids this year just like the last couple of years.
Where are the actual statistics on the harm you are claiming for the influenza vaccines approved for children in the USA? Do they actually exist?
(How did that extra letter occur in my email address? Sorry, Orac, it was me being an idiot on my keyboard.)
APV: ““The Havrix vaccine is directed against hepatitus A, the Cervarix vaccine is directed against human pappiloma virus.””
No matter how may times one gets those vaccines, they do nothing for influenza. A disease that has killed twenty six kids this year.
So how many children has the influenza vaccine killed? Do give us some verifiable statistics on that. Like right now. Stop making excuses.
Krebiozen #1124,
Moving goalposts.
In #1087 “in isolation from the effects of the other vaccine ingredients.”
You wanted to isolate the effect of the other ingredients.
In #1124 “tiny traces of some other ingredients.”
Here you dismiss the effect of the other ingredients.
What changed?
“we know the safety profile of Havrix”
The Havrix trial is another obfuscation, pl. see #1146.
“if any local reactions were due to the antigen or the adjuvant,”
In #621 you claimed:
“The safety of aluminum as an adjuvant has been established,”
Local reaction to adjuvant perfectly understood?
So why inject it into the control group?
Again, you are trying to defend the indefensible and you should know it.
In #1124 “tiny traces of some other ingredients.”
We know 8-18ng/ml can cause anaphylaxis. We know from the days of Wells that it takes a lot less to sensitize than it takes to elicit a reaction. After all this discussion, you dismiss 40ng – 5mcg of proteins as “tiny traces”?
“If you can measure the benefits and the risks it doesn’t matter if you don’t know the precise mechanism by which something works.”
How do you know what to measure? Food allergy is not reported or measured in VAERS.
In 1952 there was no egg allergy epidemic. Yet, Ratner, Untracht and Hertzmark were convinced based on Richet’s finding, that egg allergy from vaccines must be studied. They studied and demonstrated the problem even in a protected population.
In contrast today, we are aware of Ratner et. al, there’s a raging food allergy epidemic fueled by vaccines and the FDA wants to sweep it under the carpet.
Julian Frost #1122
“Two words: quality control.”
If you don’t have an allergen specification, quality control is not possible.
“Yet again, you are assuming that vaccines induce allergies. You still haven’t provided anything that rises to the standard of proof.”
If you ignore the facts, you will never see the proof.
Vicki #1117,
You can claim boiling water kills germs. But claiming that the benefits of boiling water outweigh the risks needs a more detailed study. When you boil water, you concentrate the contaminants. Vaccines are far more complicated than boiling water. So the FDA’s claim is bogus.
Krebiozen #1123,
“Every test has its limits of sensitivity, and it is impossible for them to claim there is not a single molecule of palm or coconut in the final product.
You are still trying to distract from your deliberate lie, that polysorbate 80 definitely contains palm oil and coconut oil. ”
What test? When there is no spec., why test?
Yes, it is impossible to claim that the product is allergen-free.
And when there is no testing, it is ridiculous to assume that whatever contamination occurs is safe.
Any professional vaccine engineer using this product without an allergen spec., should assume it is contaminated with an unknown quanity of palm allergen. There is no other responsible assumption s/he can make.
” Palm allergy seems to be picking up,
You know this how?”
Google radar detects stuff before scientific publications …
“You don’t know that vaccines are contaminated with palm, much less that it is causing allergies.”
Nobody has any clue how much palm (and other) allergen contaminates Polysorbate 80 because nobody specifies it or measures it.
Poorly hydrolyzed gelatin can happen but contaminated Polysorbate 80 is impossible? It does not take a PhD to point out that Murphy’s law applies here.
Matt,
I can barely believe I just read that. You clearly have no clue what statistical significance means. No wonder you have come to such bizarre conclusions about vaccine safety if you are this scientifically illiterate.
If this way of calculating statistical significance is valid all serious vaccine-related adverse events are all so rare they are statistically insignificant so we can ignore them. What a good example of the double-think it requires to be an antivaxxer.
Worse than death? About 80% of GBS patients fully recover.
You know what definitely causes Guillain-Barré Syndrome? Influenza. The risk of GBS from the influenza vaccine is less than 1 in 100,000, and the risk of GBS after influenza is 4–7 in 100,000. If you want to avoid GBS the logical course of action is to get the influenza vaccine.
The life-debilitating conditions from contracting influenza were not proven in court either. The Vaccine Court does not establish causality beyond all reasonable doubt, that’s the point of it. Pretending that influenza is less dangerous than influenza is truly desperate.
APV,
Oh really? How is it that there are almost 200 reports of food allergy on VAERS?
APV,
What is questionable about that?
More like a comprehension problem on your part.
Not to me it doesn’t. They clearly explain that there were 5 clinical trials, the data from these were pooled in various ways but the data from the small Phase 2 trial were only used in the safety assessment.
Only if you don’t have the scientific background to understand them.
Apparently you don’t understand what a variable is either.
If we know the number of side effects to expect from an aluminum adjuvant, which we do, then comparing Cervarix with an aluminum adjuvant will tell us what effects of Cervarix are due to ingredients other than the aluminum adjuvant.
If we know the number of side effects to expect from another vaccine, in this case Havrix, then comparing Cervarix with that other vaccine will tell us if Cervarix causes more side effects than that vaccine.
I don’t see any problem here except your breathtaking lack of understanding of how clinical trials work.
APV,
Yet another term you apparently do not understand the meaning of.
Correct.
We know what the effects of the other ingredients are and that they are negligible from previous clinical trials.
No, it isn’t. You just don’t understand how this works.
So you can compare the local effects of the antigen in the vaccine to the effects of the adjuvant, obviously.
I am amazed that you seem to be unable to understand how this works. It really isn’t that complex.
Havrix, which contains less than 5 mcg of residual MRC-5 cellular proteins, has been tested in clinical trials, and we know the side effects we can expect. We compare it to Cervarix to see of more side effects are reported. I don’t see the problem. Is there evidence of allergic reactions to residual MRC-5 cellular proteins?
Another flat lie, see 10016946 in the VAERS symptom list.
Vaccines back then contained at least as much egg protein as they do now, probably more, therefore egg proteins in vaccines cannot be responsible for causing the current egg allergy ‘epidemic’..
What part of “No clinical egg sensitivity developed”, did you not understand?
You have absolutely no justification for making this claim. You have failed to demonstrate a link between vaccines and food allergies, and in fact the evidence you have presented strongly suggests that this is due to foods, not to vaccines at all.
APV,
Any test has sensitivity limits, so if a manufacturer claims that all traces of a substance have been removed, someone may come along with an even more sensitive test in the future and sue them. I think it very likely that this is why the manufacturers phrased it the way they did, probably on advice from their legal team.
What a strange question. If you want to produce a quality product, why not test?
Who is making this assumption? The only assumption I see being made here is by you, assuming that polysorbate 80 contains coconut and palm oils when we know this is extremely unlikely.
How do you know that vaccine manufacturers do not already assume this? Do they really wring their hands in frustration that there is no specification so they are forced to use contaminated ingredients without testing them?
Ah, Google radar detecting stuff, of course. How precisely does it detect an increase in a phenomenon that occurs in perhaps one in a million people? I call BS.
I’m glad you finally admit this. So how can you claim categorically that it contains any palm or coconut allergens at all? It could contain none, could it not?
No one said it is impossible, just that it is extremely unlikely that any allergens survive the polysorbate manufacturing process. Yet you have repeatedly claimed that it is definitely contaminated, with no evidence for this whatsoever. Your inability to see the distinction between the remote possibility that something might possibly be occurring, and it being a definite proven fact that it is occurring is extremely bizarre. It’s the main reason I have bothered with your comments at all. You remind me of Th1Th2, who used to comment here some time ago, and had similarly blinkered black and white thinking.
By the way, I did refer to Havrix and aluminum hydroxide as placebos when strictly speaking I should have referred to them as controls. Mea culpa, though APV’s claims about clinical trials are still wrong.
This thread is still going on?
Orac,
Sadly, yes. I figure if APV is here arguing with us he has less time to write dangerous nonsense elsewhere.
Is there a record number of comments we can aspire to beating?
@APV:
It was suspected of causing GBS but later investigation showed that it didn’t. Due to legal reasons, the warning still has to be carried despite there being no proven link. It’s a precaution.
Krebiozen has already explained this to you in #1123. Please re-read his comment.
They have NOT been shown to do any such thing. You have devised a ludicrous hypothesis and instead of doing what scientists do (and try to see if it can be disproven) you have tortured the data in a blatantly dishonest manner to fit said hypothesis.
Spoken like a true anti-vaxxer. You assume that vaccines have safety problems (in your case allergies) that need fixing.
Oh the irony and the hypocrisy.
I’m going to say what I said before: you got nothin’, APV.
Polysorbate 80 from Avantor carries this allergen/hypersensitivities information:
“Allergen/Hypersensitivities Information: The products listed do not contain wheat, rye,
oats, barley, spelt, malt, triticale, gluten, other grains, soybean, eggs, yeast, canola, dairy
products, seafood products, peanuts, natural grape products, natural flavors, artificial flavors,
celery, lactose, sulfites, elemental sulfur, preservatives, MSG, disodium guanylate/inosinate,
artificial sweeteners, phenylalanine, additives, colorants, dyes, or natural rubber (latex).
Please be advised that the product is sourced from substances of vegetable (corn, palm,
sunflower, or coconut).”
When this Polysorbate 80 is used in a vaccine, I expect the vaccine package insert to carry this same allergen/hypersensitivities information.
Can anyone explain why such information is missing?
Krebiozen #1156,
“Oh really? How is it that there are almost 200 reports of food allergy on VAERS?”
When millions have been diagnosed with food allergy. That shows VAERS is completely useless.
APV,
Assuming, of course, that food allergies are a consequence of vaccination, naturally. If food allergies aren’t often caused by vaccination, then the answer might be different.
Krebiozen #1158,
Cervarix and Havrix contain aluminum hydroxide.
Cervarix trials used aluminum hydroxide in the control group.
There was no aluminum hydroxide control group for Havrix.
Let’s hear the twisted/tortured logic behind that.
After decades of vaccine trials, one would think there would be a standard test protocol defined instead of this utter obfuscating mess.
Is it just me, or is APV and MJD cut from the same cloth with their fixation on allergies (even APV mentions latex) and inability to see all of the myriad reasons that their pet hypothesis is wrong?
Mephistopheles O’Brien #116,
No you should report all childhood food allergy diagnoses to the VAERS and let the researchers figure out if it is a consequence of vaccination or not. Now, doctors assume it is not a consequence of vaccination and don’t report it. That’s the problem.
Julian Frost #1163,
According to you, vaccines do not cause GBS but due to a legal reason they have to carry a warning.
According to you, vaccines do not cause food allergy but there is no legal reason to carry a warning.
Absurdity defined.
APV – absurdity defined…..
Absolutely. In fact, you should report every single childhood illness — every headache, every sneeze, every sore throat — to VAERS because, who knows, maybe vaccination causes every single childhood illness.
@APV:
FTFY.
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749%2809%2902305-7/fulltext
“Since the 1997-1998 influenza season, 51 lots of vaccine have been tested. The brands and lots with the lowest level of ovalbumin were chosen for vaccination of egg allergic patients to avoid adverse events. The concentration of ovalbumin in the same brand varied from year to year (e.g. Flumist®: 005-0.8 μg/ml; Flushied®, 6.90-38.30 μg/ml; Fluarix®, 0.025-0.31 μg/ml; Fluzone®, 0.30-8.05 μg/ml; Fluvirin®, <0.01-0.55 μg/ml)."
Proof that vaccine makers don't care about vaccine allergen content. If vaccine makers don't care, their suppliers – excipient makers, Polysorbate 80 makers don't care about allergen content either. All those quality control claims are invalid.
Julian Frost #1173,
So GBS evidence is questionable, requiring a warning?
And please post the “best available evidence” showing “vaccines do not cause food allergy”.
LW #1172,
Yes, a third world pediatrician told me he can determine citizenship by peering down a kid’s ear canal.
See a grommet inside – US citizen!
So perhaps we will find a link between the ear infection epidemic in US kids and the US vaccine schedule.
Krebiozen #1159,
“No one said it is impossible, just that it is extremely unlikely that any allergens survive the polysorbate manufacturing process.”
Where is the data? How much allergen survives? 5mg/ml, 50 ng/ml? how often? And you have no idea how much palm/coconut allergen is need to sensitize an atopic kid receiving an adjuvanted vaccine, do you?
When you are dealing with life-threatening issues, when there is lack of data, you have to assume the worst. If you don’t want to deal with the worst case, then the FDA should study it, establish a safe dose specification and enforce it. It is the simple scientific way to handle it.
Julian Frost #1163,
” Vaccines have been shown to cause food allergies since 1952 but they DO NOT carry a food allergy warning?
They have NOT been shown to do any such thing. ”
Paper 1.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM195204032461403
They show 5 of 312 developed dermal sensitivity to egg white due to the egg proteins present in vaccines.
Paper 2.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1034/j.1399-3038.2001.1r046.x/abstract
says “Some epidemiological studies in humans suggest an inhibitory effect of tuberculosis on allergy”.
The children in Paper 1, were all under treatment for tuberculosis.
So the authors seem to have unknowingly selected a population with some protection against allergy.
So even in a population with some protection against allergy, sensitivity was detectable in 1.6% of the patients, in 1952.
No doubt, since apparently vaccines are responsible for every illness known to man.
Could egg allergy be due to the 90 trillion eggs that are consumed in the US every year, about 4000,000,000 micrograms grams of egg protein per person per year? Of course not, it must be the 40 micrograms or less of ovalbumin in an annual influenza vaccine that does it.
“So perhaps we will find a link between the ear infection epidemic in US kids and the US vaccine schedule.”
I am now satisfied that APV is just trolling. I facetiously suggest that every single childhood illness should be reported as possible vaccine injury, and suddenly there’s an epidemic of ear infections and this epidemic is also caused by vaccines!
Good grief. I am experiencing a weird combination of deja vu and a loss of the will to live. How much survives? Very probably none, given the manufacturing process – what part of Merck’s statement, “we do not expect the listed allergens in the final product” isn’t clear? But I don’t know for sure and neither do you, that’s why I am quite certain vaccine manufacturers test it for allergens, and that’s why it is a lie to claim that it is definitely present. Get it?
I ask again, what part of “No clinical egg sensitivity developed”, from paper one, did you not understand? Do you remember that “the presence of IgE to food proteins is not sufficient to generate clinical reactivity”?
Repeating the same nonsense over and over doesn’t make it true, whatever Lewis Carroll wrote.
Krebiozen #1181,
“Merck’s statement, “we do not expect the listed allergens in the final product” isn’t clear?”
They don’t test and therefore it is a bogus claim.
Don’t you ever learn? The hydrolyzed gelatin makers and
DTaP/TDaP makers made the same untested claims about allergens until people fell sick.
“that’s why I am quite certain vaccine manufacturers test it for allergens,”
Pl. see #1174. Vaccine makers DO NOT test for allergens.
They could not care less. Proof in #1174.
“Five in 319, or 1.6 per cent, of these subjects developed a dermal sensitivity to egg white.”
And what part of that don’t you understand.
In #1010 you accepted vaccines cause egg allergy
and you suggested:
“Maybe that’s why vaccine manufacturers have dramatically reduced the amount of egg protein in vaccines over the past 63 years, to the point where there is too little in most influenza vaccines to sensitize even a 300 gram guinea pig, much less a human.”
Now you flip flop.
Krebiozen #1179,
“No doubt, since apparently vaccines are responsible for every illness known to man. ”
Actually, they could be responsible for illnesses NOT EVEN known to man. That’s the peril you have to be prepared to face when you vaccinate people without knowing how vaccines work. Everyone will admit that we don’t know how the immune system works. So why do you think it is inconceivable for example, that ear infections cannot be caused by some vaccine related immunomodulatory effect?
Adjuvants I have read, may work by fooling the immune system into believing that the vaccine antigens represent a real infection. How do you know how many pathways are affected by this fooling effect? May be nature is demonstrating that we are the fools instead?
Vinu Arumugham –
Look, you’ve already admitted that you lied repeatedly and that you made up many of the supposed facts you have been stating, all in an effort to further your agenda. You’ve also said that you are a coward.
Isn’t it ironic that you are all the terrible things you claim the FDA and medical researchers are?
Are you teaching your children to lie to try to get their way?
Krebiozen #1162,
” I figure if APV is here arguing with us he has less time to write dangerous nonsense elsewhere. ”
It is an honor that Orac’s dream team is working overtime to protect the internet against this puny engineer’s “dangerous” posts.
Once again you have admitted that parents find my posts far more credible than whatever the FDA/CDC dish out. Otherwise, why would my posts be “dangerous”?
Sigh.
Endless Summer, Eternal September, whatever.
Asked and answered (twice),* dipshіt.
Apparently, your amazing circuit-design skills somehow have left you wholly unable to grasp the concept of an upper limit when you’re dead-set upon snorting and rooting for truffles, trees or no.
* Although not by you.
APV,
How is “we do not expect” a bogus claim? The statement implicitly acknowledges that they haven’t tested.
Where did the DTaP/TDaP manufacturers make this claim? I thought it was an unfortunate lapse in manufacturing standards. That incident led to a maximum of 10.3 cases of anaphylaxis per million doses of gelatin-containing measles, rubella, mumps, and varicella vaccines. Post-marketing surveillance in Japan picked up this increase in allergies, yet you are claiming that post-marketing surveillance has failed to pick up allergies caused by vaccines in 1 in 13 children. That seems a little implausible to me.
How can this be true when you yourself have provided us with allergen levels in various vaccines provided by the manufacturers? For example, the package insert for Afluria states that it contains ovalbumin (< 1 mcg).
No I did not. I suggested that the dermal sensitivity, not clinical allergy, that they found influenza vaccines could cause back in 1952 might have prompted vaccine manufacturers to reduced the amount of egg protein in influenza vaccines. Haven’t you heard of the precautionary principle?
This reminds me of claims that mercury in vaccines must have been damaging children, otherwise it would not have been removed from most vaccines.
No, you lie, again. I have rarely encountered anyone who has had to lie so much to support their arguments.
You didn’t understand what you were told about clinical trials and post-marketing surveillance did you? Or you have ignored it like everything else that doesn’t fit your preconceptions.
At least one large long-term epidemiological study has found that vaccines reduce the incidence of ear infections. If vaccines are causing ear infections, why is the incidence falling?
I don’t think nature is quite clever enough to fool us into thinking vaccines has dramatically reduced the burden of contagious diseases and infant mortality rates while actually doing the opposite.
We’re hardly working overtime, I’m idly amusing myself in my free time because I find your unshakable idée fixe intriguing.
Is that really how you justify lie after lie? Try shouting “fire!” in a crowded theater and see how well that excuse works for you. “The panicking crowds should have listened to the usherette. It’s not my fault they got trampled to death.”
When you tell people that the FDA cannot be trusted because they approved a drug that “kills people more efficiently than it kills pain”, which is an outrageous lie, and continue with other lies about the FDA such as, “the FDA/CDC seem to want to hide/obfuscate the facts about vaccine-induced diseases”, which is simply not true, you undermine people’s faith in the FDA, and their confidence in vaccines.
You have posted your lies about vaccines and food allergies on hundreds of websites. It’s up to you what you post, of course, but I firmly believe that if one child dies because you scared their parents away from vaccinating with your lies, some of the responsibility for that death is yours.
APV, I had a look at that NEJM article you posted. W.R.T. your claim that
The paper suggests that vaccines might cause allergy. It does NOT confirm it. As for paper 2, the operative word (which hilariously YOU posted) is once again might. TB might have an inhibitory effect on allergies.
I repeat again what I said before. APV, you got nothin’.
I missed this comment of APV’s @ #1175.
You’ve just confirmed that you know nothing about science. It is impossible to prove a negative, yet that’s what you want me to do.
It’s not up to me to show that vaccines don’t induce allergies, it’s up to you to show that they do, and so far, nothing you have posted rises above circumstantial evidence.
Julian Frost #1190,
Then how did they prove that mercury does not cause autism?
Using pseudoscience?
In several ways. They compared the symptoms of mercury poisoning to those of autism. The symptoms didn’t match. They also compared the rates of autism in the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Incidentally, you were given a study way back in Comment #366 that looked at the allergy rate between the two also.
One final point: they didn’t prove that mercury (in the form of thimerosal) doesn’t cause autism, they disproved that it did, and yes, there’s a difference.
APV: “Using pseudoscience?”
Is that the method you are using? So exactly how many children have died due to the influenza vaccine? Compare it to the pediatric mortality due to the actual disease.
APV @1191
They didn’t. They tried to prove that it did, and they failed.
Julian Frost #1192,
The study in Comment #366 did not look at food allergies.
Julian Frost #1189,
“APV, I had a look at that NEJM article you posted. W.R.T. your claim that
They show 5 of 312 developed dermal sensitivity to egg white due to the egg proteins present in vaccines.
The paper suggests that vaccines might cause allergy. It does NOT confirm it. As for paper 2, the operative word (which hilariously YOU posted) is once again might. TB might have an inhibitory effect on allergies.”
I did not claim, I quoted the authors. The paper does not “suggest”, it reported finding dermal sensitivity.
Yes, TB might have an inhibitory effect and ALL subjects were TB patients in that study. Today’s atopic kids not only have zero protection from allergy (no TB) in contrast, they are prone to allergy. You of course as usual ignore all these inconvenient facts.
Oh, the irony.
Vinu Arumugham:
You wrote,
“Once again you have admitted that parents find my posts far more credible than whatever the FDA/CDC dish out. Otherwise, why would my posts be ‘dangerous’?”
This is outstanding evidence of how stupid you are (sorry, but there’s really no nice way to put it, and as an engineer [well, supposedly, anyway], you will appreciate the use of appropriate terminology).
One of the difficulties you have, along with being profoundly dishonest, is that you don’t understand the difference between “some” and “all,” nor between “might” and “will” (or “does”). Because of your ignorance in this regard, you make such childish errors as concluding that “can’t be conclusively ruled out” means exactly the same thing as “absolutely must be the case.” Because of this intelligence deficit, you are incapable of participating in a rational discussion (probably about anything).
This failure of logic also causes you to emit dumb statements such as the one quoted above. Take the following assertion:
“There may be some stupid, or irrational, or ignorant, or misinformed, or biased parents who will believe things that are untrue when stated by dishonest, illogical people such as Vinu Arumugham, and those things can cause those parents to endanger their children.”
Because you don’t know how to think, and how to use logic, and because you don’t understand the difference between “some” and “all,” you consider the above assertion in all ways equivalent to,
“Parents find my posts far more credible than whatever the FDA/CDC dish out.”
This is ample proof that you are an idiot, in addition to being morally bankrupt and profoundly dishonest.
I’m really quite surprised that you are an electronic engineer. The electronic engineers I’ve known at such companies as Cisco were intelligent, rational, and honest, but perhaps the standards of the industry have slipped gravely.
Also, you don’t seem to know the difference between a fact and an assumption you choose to make in order to proceed with decision-making. They are, of course, not the same thing. Do you believe that if you make an assumption in order to be able to make a decision that the assumption is converted into a fact?
Also, why did you decide to lie about what manufacturers said regarding the contents of Polysorbate 80? Tell us what about this topic led you to decide that you were justified in fabricating information to support your position. We (and your kids) are interested in knowing your answer to that question.
^electronics
–OL
Krebiozen #1188,
“unfortunate lapse in manufacturing standards.”
Which standard? When you don’t have a standard, it is not an “unfortunate lapse”, it is a fundamental design error.
An accident waiting to happen. Also known as Murphy’s law.
“That incident led to a maximum of 10.3 cases of anaphylaxis per million doses of gelatin-containing measles, rubella, mumps, and varicella vaccines. Post-marketing surveillance in Japan picked up this increase in allergies, yet you are claiming that post-marketing surveillance has failed to pick up allergies caused by vaccines in 1 in 13 children.”
Yeah, right. Anaphylaxis is where the smoking gun is obvious. Otherwise, the FDA would find a way to sweep that under the carpet too. Food allergy development/diagnosis, occurs weeks later and is very rarely reported to VAERS. Easy to sweep under the carpet. With the cocktail injected into our kids, in most cases it is impossible to pin point the cause of anaphylaxis thus making it easy to conveniently ignore that as well.
“How can this be true when you yourself have provided us with allergen levels in various vaccines provided by the manufacturers? For example, the package insert for Afluria states that it contains ovalbumin (< 1 mcg). "
I am talking about a manufacturing test used to reject lots, on violation. The Afluria number is a bench tested number. There is no specification for allergen content for vaccines manufactured in the US. Obviously, if there was a spec. you would not see this huge range of values among vendors.
"I suggested that the dermal sensitivity, not clinical allergy, that they found influenza vaccines could cause back in 1952 might have prompted vaccine manufacturers to reduced the amount of egg protein in influenza vaccines. Haven’t you heard of the precautionary principle? "
7.4 mcg/ml in 1967 to 33.8 mcg/ml of ovalbumin in 2008. That sounds like the FDA's reckless-disregard-for-vaccine-safety principle.
Precautionary principle?!
You throw caution to the wind at every turn. I am surprised to see *you* cite the precautionary principle.
The precautionary principle states that the burden of proof of vaccine safety falls on those approving the vaccines.
Here the burden is on victims like me to prove that vaccines are unsafe. The FDA has done nothing to demonstrate that the level of allergens present in vaccines are safe.
When Avantor says Polysorbate 80 is sourced from palm/coconut and does not provide a spec. for allergen content, I say we have to assume the worst. We have to assume it contains palm/coconut allergens based on the precautionary principle. You call that lying.
As WHO puts it: The precautionary principle: plan for the worst, hope for the best
http://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/disease-prevention/vaccines-and-immunization/news/news/2011/11/who-response-to-concerns-in-serbia-over-its-actions-during-the-influenza-a-h1n1-2009-pandemic/the-precautionary-principle-plan-for-the-worst,-hope-for-the-best
You (and the FDA/CDC) plan for the best and when hell breaks loose, you call it an "unfortunate lapse".
When we have the technology to make vaccines without Polysorbate 80, we have to stop using Polysorbate 80 to make vaccines per the precautionary principle.
When we have technology to make vaccines without thiomersal, we have to stop using thiomersal in vaccines per the precautionary principle. The FDA/CDC are still beating around the bush with assertions of ethyl mercury being eliminated faster then methyl mercury. Congress had to step in, stop the nonsense and enforce the precautionary principle.
So, the FDA/CDC and many posters here seem to be clueless about the precautionary principle.
"shouting “fire!”"
If you pull your head out of the sand, you will notice that there is a raging fire.
Looks like not just parents but a majority of doctors and family practitioners find my posts more credible than the FDA/CDC !?
http://www.usphs.gov/corpslinks/pharmacy/sc_career_ph_articles_4.aspx
"Family practitioners were more likely than pediatricians to believe that more research was needed, but a majority of both groups want more research to be done on the potential for neurologic effects such as autism. on the safety of newly introduced vaccines, and on vaccine additives."
In case you missed it, a majority of both groups don't believe the safety claims of the FDA/CDC. That makes you – the blind believers, the minority …
APV:
From the article in your first link:
The operative word is POSSIBILITY.
As for article 2, I could only access the abstract, but that was enough.
So there is a possibility that vaccines prevent allergies.
On the matter of children with allergies:
In other words, if the children are allergic to the ingredients, precautions should be taken. That isn’t proof that vaccines induce allergies.
And now the money quote:
The very source you posted refutes you, APV.
“Vaccination programs do not explain the increasing prevalence of allergic diseases.”
That it contains “kosher tapioca”?
“We”?
You demonstrate a steadfast resolve to exempt yourself from showing basic plausibility. You’ve demonstrated time and again that you have no freaking idea how polysorbate manufacturing works and that you’re perfectly content with that situation.
Hey, who am I?
This is complete gibberish. You don’t care, because your intellectual dishonesty is part and parcel of the overt dishonesty that led to your lying about being a medical student.
APV,
I’m not going to repeat myself yet again, while adding the precautionary principle to the long list of things you apparently don’t understand. You do bring up a couple of new points:
That’s very misleading account of what happened. It was the USPHS and AAP who supported reduction of thimerosal despite concluding that there was, “no evidence of harm caused by doses of thimerosal found in vaccines, except for local hypersensitivity reactions”.
The AAP have subsequently stated (PDF) that if we had known then what we know now, thimerosal would would likely not have been removed from most vaccines. Here’s what they said in full:
Yet another unfounded vaccine scare that cost a fortune, increased people’s concerns and had no positive effect on people’s health whatsoever.
It looks like you have a serious reading comprehension problem, yet again. Allow me to explain it to you through the medium of embolding the relevant passages:
It is it not true that a majority of doctors and family practitioners expressed concern about vaccine safety, more than a third of them did, and those did not state that they were concerned that vaccines cause food allergies.
It sounds worrying but that study was conducted in 2001, not long after there was a rotavirus scare about intersussception and thimerosal was removed from most vaccines. We have new safer rotavirus vaccines now, and we know that the thimerosal scare was unfounded. Physician confidence in vaccines has been increasing since then with most family physicians and pediatricians reporting confidence in post-licensure vaccine safety studies in 2013.
Julian Frost,
I looked more closely at that paper. The first paper APV linked to described children being injected with egg-protein-containing vaccines 11 to 35 times over a period of 12-27 months. A small number of children (1.6%) developed dermal sensitivity to egg but no clinical egg sensitivity developed, despite two of them being injected with egg-protein-containing vaccines 35 times.
I think that’s good evidence against injected egg-protein-containing vaccines causing clinical allergy to egg.
APV/vinucube/Vinu Arumugham:
Thank you so much for publicly posting yet another example of how dishonest you are. It is very important for any parents who may come across this thread to see such clear-cut proof that you lie as easily as you breathe.
You wrote,
“When Avantor says Polysorbate 80 is sourced from palm/coconut and does not provide a spec. for allergen content, I say we have to assume the worst. We have to assume it contains palm/coconut allergens based on the precautionary principle. You call that lying.”
No. What we call lying is your fabricating statements supposedly made by others, and making up fake “facts” to bolster your argument (which, it follows, would fail if you didn’t make things up to support it).
Please compare the two following claims of yours:
“When Avantor says Polysorbate 80 is sourced from palm/coconut and does not provide a spec. for allergen content, I say we have to assume the worst.”
“[Phuong Tang of Avantor stated to me in an email that] they have palm oil and coconut oil in their Polysorbate 80.”
The first statement is not a lie (it’s just you stating a decision you’ve made), nor does it contain an embedded lie.
The second statement is a lie, told by you.
You do realize that it’s very telling that you have been evading addressing this point for many days now. Everyone reading this will know why that is; because you’re a dishonest coward. You won’t address this comment either, which is constructive proof that you admit lying, as you have done about so many other things.
[…] as it is for me to believe, it was only five weeks ago when I discussed an announcement by the CDC that this year’s flu vaccine would likely be less effective because it isn’t a good […]
This thread is so many kinds of crazy I was finally compelled to comment. My youngest boy died (22) 5 years ago at the tale end of the first southern hemisphere wave of novel h1n1. No vaccine. The young medical student who was fighting for life at the same time is now a poster child for flu vacs. My boy died after a rare reaction to a common virus. If I could have saved his life in exchange for a food allergy, yeahh!
This thread is so many kinds of crazy I was finally compelled to comment.
You have my sympathy already, Biblia, but if you have read through this entire thread, than you have it even more.
Thank you herr doctor bimler. The death of my boy has led me into so much science and sketpicism that I can no longer spell!!! Aarghh.
I’d like to extend my condolences for the loss of your beloved son, biblia. (If you think this thread is crazy, stick around to see just how crazy Respectful Insolence can get). 🙂
British Medical Journal
Are US flu death figures more PR than science?
http://www.bmj.com/content/331/7529/1412
“People don’t necessarily die, per se, of the [flu] virus — the viraemia,” said Dr. David Rosenthal, director of Harvard University Health Services. “What they die of is a secondary pneumonia.”
matt,
You could say the same for secondary infections after HIV, measles, hip fractures and abdominal gunshot wounds. In all cases avoiding the primary cause also avoids the potentially lethal sequelae. Prevention is better than cure, isn’t it?
I agree prevention is the best cure. That is why a healthy immune system is important to maintain. I would postulate that influenza has never killed or harmed a healthy individual with a strong immune system. I also feel that prevention does not necessarily come in the form of a needle.
A wise man once said, “Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food.”
@Matt – pardon the language, but you are full of crap.
The 1918 Pandemic Flu as more lethal to those who were “young and healthy” – it was their healthy immune response that was ultimately the cause of their death.
Krebiozen #1212,
“Prevention is better than cure, isn’t it?”
Certainly not! We are actively looking to cure food allergy.
There is absolutely no interest in trying to prevent it.
There’s a level of ignorance that one doesn’t see every day. Ever heard of 1918, Matt?
@APV:
Given that there is no “cure” for allergies yet, and given that people have died from allergies, there is a great deal of interest in preventing food allergies.
Matt @1213 said
Suppose you wanted to actually prove, rather than merely assume, that influenza has never harmed a healthy individual with a strong immune system.
1. How do you define “a healthy individual” in this context?
2. How do you measure how strong someone’s immune system is? How do you know that?
3. What studies have been done to show that individuals with a measured strong immune system has never been harmed by influenza? Where were these studies published?
4. Given a statistically large population, could you determine in advance which would be harmed by influenza and which would not? How? How do you know that?
5. You imply there are foods that strengthen the immune system. Which foods? How is that measured? How do you know that?
Note that any proof of your assumption that uses infection by influenza as the test is fundamentally a tautology, and no more meaningful than saying that only people who are haunted by ghosts are killed or harmed by influenza (proof: the people who weren’t killed weren’t haunted by ghosts, so the people who were must have been – even if they didn’t know it).
Julian Frost #1217
“there is a great deal of interest in preventing food allergies.”
This long thread started with my comment about peanut in Polysorbate 80.
This document:
http://askavantor.force.com/servlet/fileField?id=0BEG0000000TSTm
says:
“Rev. 7; March 30, 2011 – Section 4: Added peanuts
to the Allergen list; Corrected residual
solvents info for Ethylene glycol; minor formatting. (JLW) ”
So Avantor was unable to guarantee that this Polysorbate 80 was not contaminated with peanuts, before 2011.
Today, you will see Avantor specifically claiming their product is of non-peanut origin.
Given the history of “poorly hydrolyzed gelatin” and “very trace” milk contamination of vaccines, we now also have documented evidence of peanut proteins contaminating vaccines.
If anyone is serious about preventing food allergies, removing food proteins from vaccines would be a good start.
You’ve already more than adequately demonstrated your inability to either read or think, thanks.
APV, you are once again being thoroughly disingenuous.
is not, in your words “documented evidence of peanut proteins contaminating vaccines”, no matter how much you think it is.
It’s not even evidence that they were “unable to guarantee” anything;
The peanut comes from where, again? And who pays a premium for freaking GMO-free PS-80 in vaccine manufacture?
I’m very concerned about polysorbate 80 containing unicorn droppings. Why isn’t that on the list of things that aren’t in it?
Julian Frost, Narad, Krebiozen #1221, #1222, #1223,
Why was peanut added to the “do not contain” list only in 2011?
Why does Avantor now emphasize that their Polysorbate 80 is of non-peanut origin, if no one ever makes peanut sourced Polysorbate 80?
@Vinu Arumugham:
If you think you get a reboot of your screamingly willful ignorance of how oleic acid is (1) obtained from raw product and (2) ethoxylated, you are sorely mistaken. Stick to Topix.
BTW, are you still lying about being a medical student over at Medscape? I’m pretty sure that there are people around who could try to help remedy that situation.
At a wild guess, because someone asked them about peanuts and possible allergies. We are living in a culture that has maple syrup explicitly labeled as a fat-free food. That doesn’t mean other brands of maple syrup, or for that matter cane sugar, contain fat.
You do realize that Tautology of the above argument. (1218, etc)
A ” healthy individual” is one that does not die of flu, therefore a healthy individual has never died of flu.
Also, the potential mass of peanut material in a vaccine is so infinitesimally tiny as to be of the same level of exposure as walking past a lays potatoe chip facility or a White Castle. Pharmaceutical grade materials are of very high purity, only chromographic grade being higher.
Colonel Tom #1227,
“Pharmaceutical grade materials are of very high purity”
Please post a pointer to the specification (ng/ml allowed?)
And also please post the study showing what level of peanut protein in a vaccine is safe.
Vicki #1226,
Their “do not contain” list has several allergens, why only market it as a non-peanut origin product? What’s the value of that claim, if every other Polysorbate 80 on the market is also of non-peanut origin?
@Vinu Arumugham:
Please respond in detail to my comment #1225. There are only two points, which should be well within your grasp as a circuit jockey (and apparently being called out on that when you surface) with plain fraudulence as an acceptable operating principle.
^ Please add tedious blockquote note.
“Pharm grade matter” is a regulatory definition dealing with the standards of purity in materials. If you wish to enter the exciting field of pharm regulatory compliance, you can start by reading
21 CFR 210, 21 CFR 211, 21 CFR 820. My end of career background had much more to do with 40 CFR 70 and 51, but I certainly had enough overlap to know that Pharm grade is high purity.
As far as what level of peanut program could possibly cause an adverse reaction, since we are talking about pico and nanograms here, I have to refer you to first principles. A substance with no detectable effect upon a system.
Otherwise, you could show an increase in autism and any affect for those living within a mile of a Jif plant. I’ve seen those studies, no detectable effect.
Colonel Tom @1227
Indeed, I think we can take it one step further. Once a “healthy individual” catches influenza, that person is now a “sick individual”, thus no longer healthy. It should be obvious that no person who doesn’t have flu can die of flu.
APV:
Because it’s marketing. Did you miss the point of my example, that one brand of maple syrup being labeled “a fat-free food” doesn’t mean that other maple syrup contains fat?
@Vicki, An undergrad friend of mine, and one of the few minds I’ve ever encountered that I considered to be “an intellectual level” above my own abillity, did a summer internship at the P&G Jif plant. While he was working there, Jif changed the packaging to include the phrase “cholesterol-free”. As David Hardin ranted in a little article published in the honors program, peanut butter has never had cholesterol, will never have cholesterol and the weeks he spent fixing old stock were, at best, less than productive.
As I said, when it wrote about it, it was funny.
@Mephistopheles O’Brien. I will not preclude the possibility that someone has died after being hit by a hearse carrying a dead flu victim to the graveyard. Since no one can prove that has never happened, I must fixated upon the possibility of a maniac hearse driver, his vehicle overloaded with the bodies of the flu-deceased with underlying health problems, careening across the lane on the hill up to my home, plunging us all to the river valley below.
Also, there was the old joke, no longer true, that everyone dies of heart stoppage. Cause of death used to be legally considered to be determined by heart stoppage, thus my little jest about my first “death” of 4.7 minutes from Amphotericin B.
Did you know that the leading cause of death is conception?
Indeed. Life is, as I like to say, a sexually transmitted 100% fatal disease. 🙂
@Mephistopheles O’Brien, we actually have a religious saying about that. “Life is a gift, none know the length nor worth of the gift, but appreciate and take joy in all days as granted.”
Now, we could launch into a heated and meaningless debate that since all conceptions do not lead to a birth, in my personal experience at least 8 conceptions never made it past the 15th week. Since all conceptions do not lead to death, than we’re just going to invalidate your whole premise for no logical and describable reason. To quote Richard Nixon, “We could do that, but it would be wrong”.
Shootfire, we could also argue that if only 1 out of 9+ conceptions lead to birth, if that statistically proves a genetic incompatibility, a structural problem in the beloved one’s lady parts or if we could just attribute that to pure chance. If 1/4 conceptions fail, then what are the odds of 8+ in a row failing. We could do that, but to quote the Pythons, that would be too silly.
APV/Vinu Arumugham:
Your problem is that you lie a lot, and you are too cowardly to address your numerous lies that have been exposed here. You are a deeply dishonest person. You have no integrity. You fabricate evidence in support of your position.
For example, you stated that Phuong Tang of Avantor told you in an email that Avantor’s Polysorbate 80 contains palm oil and coconut oil.
That’s a lie; you made that up. And everyone who reads this thread, now and in the future (perhaps after searching for your name, in order to find out whether you are honest or dishonest) will know that you lied about that.
Have you taught your children that it’s OK to lie to get something they want? They will inevitably discover how dishonest a person you are, and they will probably ask you for an explanation.
What will that explanation be?
Colonel Tom – I agree that not all conceptions lead to births; however, the vast majority human deaths are preceded by conception. Coincidence? I think not.
Vicki #1235,
They use labels like fat-free or cholesterol-free because there is a market for them.
Injectable grade Polysrobate 80 is sold to pharmaceutical companies. There is a market for Polysorbate 80 of non-peanut origin because pharmaceutical companies have found:
1. Polysorbate 80 of peanut origin contains residual peanut proteins.
2. Peanut proteins in pharmaceutical products cause harm.
Colonel Tom #1233,
The fact is there are no studies or specifications for safe dose of peanut allergen in injectable products. Please prove me wrong by posting a spec. or study. You don’t engineer vaccines with terms like “very high purity”. You need a spec. “Very trace” amounts of casein, 8-18 ng/ml in DTaP/TdaP have caused anaphylaxis because there was no specification for casein in vaccines.
Vinu, it has been well established that you are dishonest, but you’ve just added delusional to that.
APV:
Given that you were shown that peanuts have never been used to manufacture polysorbate 80, all I can say is that you are delusional.
APV is as delusional and single-minded as MjD – perhaps they can form the core of a barbershop quartet….
Julian Frost #1245,
“Given that you were shown that peanuts have never been used to manufacture polysorbate 80.”
Where and when was that shown?
@APV Prove to me that vaccines are not manufactured according to specifications in the CFR. Prove to me that pharmaceutical grade reagents are not required.
Cause, I know they do.
APV:
Narad pointed it out in his comment #1222.
Julian Frost #1249,
Narad is talking about their current product. I am talking about what they were shipping before the 2011 revision of their datasheet.
Colonel Tom #1248,
Where in the CFR are allergen limits for vaccines/excipients specified?
I know they don’t because the FDA, USP and Sanofi Pasteur confirmed that to me.
APV, so because the company revised its datasheet, it must also have changed its product formulation? Is that what you’re arguing? Seriously?
No, I am talking about your being a delusional liar who, lacking the ability or inclination to so much as make the slightest effort to try to understand the manufacturing process despite ample pointers has now been reduced to trying to pass off completely insane shіt such as
because you thought you had snagged a “live one” in Vicki.
See “tapioca, ‘kosher’.”
Julian Frost #1252, Narad #1254,
No, they changed the product (from peanut origin to other sources). They THEREFORE updated the datasheet to reflect the change in the product.
Direct question, APV: do you have any evidence whatsoever demonstrating vaccines ever contained Polysorbate 80 made from peanuts?
Or does your entire argument take no form other than “Well, it COULD have happened–couldn’t it?”
Anyone growing bored with the dubious horrors of surfactants made from peanut oil might like to have a look at Intralipid and “Milk of Amnesia” (propofol).
Intralipid, used in substantial quantities for parenteral nutrition, including (with some extra precautions) for premature infants, contains up to 30% soybean oil and 1.2% phospholipids from eggy wegs, o my brothers. Propofol, a widely used IV anesthetic, contains the same ingredients.
Soybeans! Eggs! Up there in the top ten list of food allergens. Yet somehow components thereof are readily purified for large volume IV administration.
You are so G-ddamned dishonest that you would do well to figure out when it’s time to quit trying to attract attention.
I mean, couldn’t Avantor’s Phuong Tang supply you with earlier versions?
I asked APV:
APV replied:
I guess that answers my question.
APV, companies update their datasheets all the time without altering their products.
I repeat what I said before. You got nothin’.
@Politicalguineapig #426
“An error doesn’t become a mistake until you refuse to correct it” — Orlando Aloysius Battista {and Kennedy’s 1961 address, The President and the Press, et al.}
^^Well, maybe not time-sensitive errors: The landing gear on an aircraft during final approach or the jettisoning out of it without first applying parachute, the 3’rd shift forgetting to top off the water in the nuclear reactor before leaving the key and locking the door on the way out, …, accidentally ‘sexting’ your mom.
I have made an error and I fear harm has been done but, in the interest of ‘harm reduction’, I am now attempting to correct it. It seems ‘Providence’ foresaw the poorly thought out critique and gave me many hours of grace period to ammend my statement. I, on the other hand, stubbornly and impulsively, foolishly stompy-foot wished it published.
In my comment #316, I have committed
abuse of artistic liscencegross awkward embellishment. For the stated circumstance of my ‘sliding away’ was not generally characteristic of that part of The Body of which I was an ‘active’ participant; Rather, it was weak rationalization and broad-brush mischaracterization after the fact. This dissimulation for public consumption and the rest of that problematic paragraph, borders on my having bore false witness against the church, my father, and, to a matter of degree, myself. For this, I am remorseful and I apologize.JGC #1256,
I have shown that versions of injectable grade Polysorbate 80 contain peanut protein. It matters little if it were injected as part of a vaccine or a Vitamin K1 injection. It made people sick.
And it is injectable grade so they inject it. They don’t use it in food.
The MMR vaccine contains 11-14 mg of hydrolyzed gelatin.
According to many posters here, hydrolyzed gelatin is 100% free of allergen because it goes through “hydrolyzation hell”.
If it is guaranteed to be free of allergen “by definition”, then why does the MMR package insert carry a warning for people who are allergic to gelatin?
The fact is, they cannot guarantee MMR is free of gelatin allergen. As I have shown before, if MMR has enough allergen to elicit a response, it has more than enough to cause sensitization. So, MMR vaccines can cause gelatin allergy. MMR also contain 14.5 mg of sorbitol. Sorbitol is made from various food sources. So you get the idea …
Julian Frost #1259,
So Avantor figured out after producing the product for 4 years (2007-2011) that they left peanut out of the datasheet? And then they coincidentally start marketing the product as “of non-peanut origin”? Need a lot of salt to swallow that …
Yes, I’m sure that everyone “got the idea” a long fυcking time ago. The problem is that you are not just demonstrably dishonest in the conventional sense, but mentally lazy as shіt, enthusiastically and stalwartly ignorant of what you imagine to be your “field of expertise,” and proud as fυcking hell of the debasement.
APV:
No you haven’t. You have come up with an absurd theory that vaccines provoke allergies and you have twisted, distorted and begged the question to find “evidence” for your hypothesis. None of the so-called evidence you have posted rises to the standard of proof.
Not at all. The most likely scenario is that someone (or more than just one) contacted them looking for information and they updated their datasheet. However, one does need a lot of salt to swallow that they were using peanuts then changed their formulation. You have shown how little you know about mass production already.
So you still believe those CDC numbers, huh?
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/lawrence-solomon/death-by-influenza_b_4661442.html
Here is another oldie but goodie…
Any M.D. willing to dring (not inject) all the perservatives and adjuvants in thier equivalent body weight ajusted amounts can have $75,000 instantly. To this day there are no takers.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2007/07/19/75-000-offered-for-md-to-publicly-drink-vaccine-additives.aspx
Thanks for confirming, once again, that you’re a nutjob Matt.
So you run away from your utterly brain-dead comment that “I would postulate that influenza has never killed or harmed a healthy individual with a strong immune system” and then ooze back around waving Mercola and Lawrence Freaking Solomon?
Good L-rd.
Dr. John Kelso writes:
“The fact that the skin tests were positive suggests that these were in fact an IgE mediated reactions, perhaps to the viral proteins themselves.”
http://www.aaaai.org/ask-the-expert/influenza-vaccine-anaphylaxis.aspx
Not only do people synthesize IgE and develop allergy to injected viral proteins contained in vaccines, Dr. Kelso thinks it can even result in anaphylaxis on subsequent exposure.
When vaccines/injections contaminated with food proteins are injected, do we expect the immune system to magically behave in a different manner?
Once again, APV, where is your proof that vaccines are “contaminated”?
Vinu Arumugham, just how badly do you desire your fraud upon Medscape to be brought to light?
I’m new to this site. I hope after moderation this comment will be accepted. I am someone who is interested in engaging in dialogue with the true believers in modern science. Vaccines are a good place to start- GMOs even better. I think modern science is both good and bad and right and wrong. Modern science was originally meant to be completely open-minded and to follow the evidence. Because the human mind works along symbolic, mythic and religious structures, probably because we need faith since we cannot know the future or past with any certitude, I see here a fanaticism in regards to faith in modern science.
I love the enthusiasm for Science here. I also love the enthusiasm at a festival honoring Ganesh where everyone is throwing around turmeric and wearing flowers. It’s all good. What I don’t like are mandates based on the faith of one sect of true believers meant to control others who do not share the same belief system. Like vaccine mandates. Or witch hunts. Or pogroms.
Science has been horribly terribly wrong. (Thalidomide, frontal lobotomies, bleeding therapy, mercury therapy- it’s a long list). Science has been used for evil. (Mengele and the Nazi doctors some of whom were brought to the US after WW2). Science has created some horrible things. (Nuclear bombs, killer drones, MK-Ultra).
Science contradicts itself, which is a good thing. But faith based scientists don’t like to admit that science contradicts itself. It turns out to be very hard to get real certitude with science beyond the basic physical chemical level. As soon as a complex living system is studied like a human being, all certitude essentially vanishes. (Frankly the certitude vanishes even at the chemical physical level, but it does remain predictable, unlike humans). Science likes to believe in laws that were created at the instant of the big bang and that they have always been and always will be inviolable tenets of reality: like gravity or the second law of thermodynamics. But when evidence is brought forth contradicting these laws, most scientists ignore it. (Read “The Science Delusion” by scientist Rupert Sheldrake for details.) Even to actually believe in the Big Bang is an extreme act of religious faith. There is an enormous amount of scientific evidence against the big bang. But most faith based scientists believe wholeheartedly in it, because a human being has to believe in something. If not God then Science will have to do.
Which brings us to vaccines, one of modern science’s greatest inventions according to many true believers. There is an enormous amount of scientific evidence that vaccines can and do have negative consequences. It is undeniable, except on this blog. Let’s take the Disneyland brouhaha. Let’s take the boy whose parents think he got the measles at Disneyland. The boy who could not be vaccinated because he was too young. It is very likely that he (if he does actually have the measles) contracted it from someone who was recently vaccinated, since vaccinated people shed live measles virus.
Personally I wouldn’t take an immune compromised boy to Disneyland.
At the very least it should be obvious that we are over-vaccinating our children based on faith-based Science. Vaccinating a one day old baby for a virus that it cannot get unless the mother has it is not very intelligent. But not to a true believer. Why test the mother? Just stick the kid.
It seems perfectly obvious that tampering with an unformed immune system almost immediately upon birth might just harm that immune system, might just make it dysfunctional and lead to severe food allergies or asthma down the road. This is simple basic common sense and logic. But not to a true believer in “Science”, which is weird because it is based on scientific thinking.
Even when someone comes forward (CDC whistleblower says that data showed that vaccines created autism in younger children vaccinated by MMR shot) this direct evidence is denied, even when it only makes perfect and logical sense and is backed by hard science. But a true believer will still deny it.
I love science but I am open minded and very willing to criticize it when it is wrong. I love alternative medicine and am very willing to criticize it when it is wrong. The intensity and personal nature of the attacks thrown at ADV here for very reasonable logical objections to over-vaccination seem to suggest a severe case of faith-based scientism on the rampage. Vaccines can and do harm some people and it should be the choice of the individual (in the land of the free) to decide for themselves, based on all the available science and common sense and personal experience, what to do for themselves and their children.
Especially since 100% vaccinated populations have come down with the measles. Herd Immunity seems quite similar to the Second Coming of the Messiah. I don’t mean to insult scientists with religious metaphors…but I do know they will be taken that way. I really do think that modern science has become a religion. Peace out, Ginko
*plonk*
The Fallacy of Nirvana is Strong with this one.
(and a few others)
Ginko. Go read the archives of Respectful Insolence for the last 10 years. Go read the scientific articles Orac and commenters were linking to.
Your arguments have been addressed a thousand times already on these past threads.
Then come back telling us you are open-minded and we are following a religion.
Just because it’s bugging me, but I get tired of repeating this point in answer to all antivax religious zealots (eh, if Ginko has the right to call other people religious bigots, so do I):
The measles vaccine is only 95% effective, so “100% vaccinated populations” will have about 5% of people getting the measles nonetheless. Which, from a health management standpoint, is a lot better than >80% of a non-vaccinated population getting it (before vaccination, everybody was getting wild measles, don’t you know it?.
Now, look at the recent measles outbreak around Disneyland.
Most people who caught measles were not vaccinated.
Non-vaccinated people are a minority in the US.
It is as if the virus was targeting them.
And herd immunity is not about personal resistance to infection. It’s about people around you being less likely to catch a bug and passing it to you, because these people have met the bug before, either the wild form or the one in the vaccine, and are more resistant to it.
Someone sick with measles typically give it to 18-20 people around him/her, in a naive (non-immune) population. See how fast America’s ancient inhabitants got it from European explorers/settlers. If, during the current outbreak, the rate of infection is inferior to that (say, only 5 or 6 people getting it from someone else), then you have herd immunity at work. Nothing more, nothing less.
Julian Frost #1270,
“Once again, APV, where is your proof that vaccines are “contaminated”?”
The CDC/FDA say so.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf
Ginko #1272,
Thank you!
Ginko,
An enormous amount of scientific evidence tells us that most adverse events associated with vaccinations are mild, and that severe adverse events are so rare it is often difficult to tell if they are really associated with vaccination or not.
I don’t remember seeing anyone deny the existence of rare side effects here.
Which, let’s be clear, has little or nothing to do with side effects of vaccines.
I’m not sure which little boy you are referring to. Seven people were definitely infected with measles at Disneyland and there are currently 114 infected people associated with the outbreak. The virus causing that outbreak has been genotyped and is not a vaccine strain, it’s the same wild strain as that currently responsible for an outbreak in the Phillipines.
By the way, over half a billion doses of MMR have been given, yet (as far as I know) only one case of measles transmitted by a vaccinated person has ever been reported, and that was not confirmed to be a vaccine strain.
Until recently it would have been safe, as measles was eliminated from the US. Are you referring to the daughter of a pediatrician who is recovering from leukemia and who was exposed to measles in a clinic, not Disneyland, by another patient? Should children with cancer have to avoid clinics and hospitals because some parents refuse to vaccinate their children?
Obvious to whom, based on what?
The tears, saliva, sweat, and urine of children with hepatitis B contain high levels of the virus:
Using a remarkably safe vaccine to give a child (probable) lifelong immunity to a contagious and incurable disease that kills 2,000–4,000 people every year in the US is “not very intelligent”? Read the paper I linked to.
Yet large studies find no association between vaccination and allergies or autoimmune diseases.
When large, well-designed scientific studies find that vaccines do not harm the immune system, is it really scientific thinking to continue insisting that it does? Who are the true believers here, those following the evidence, or those who only accept evidence that supports what they already believe?
On the contrary, anyone with a basic understanding of study design and statistics can see that Hooker’s ‘study’ is horribly flawed and that the so-called CDC whistle-blower doesn’t understand statistics. It’s the people who still believe it who are the true believers, unswayable by the evidence.
If you love science, how is it that you have come to believe that the Disneyland measles outbreak is vaccine-derived? Or that the only way a child can get HBV is from its mother? Or that Hooker’s execrable paper is valid?
APV has repeatedly lied about the ingredients of vaccines, and insists that they are causing food allergies despite not having a shred of evidence to support this. S/he persists even when his/her lies are pointed out. Is that really OK with you? If you really believe that getting measles, which kills 1 in 1,000 children who contract it and causes serious illness like encephalitis and pneumonia in many more, is safer than MMR which has never killed anyone, I have to seriously question the love of science you profess.
That’s because the vaccine is about 97% effective, Do you claim that seat belts are useless because some people wearing them still get hurt in car accidents?
Not to anyone who has the slightest understanding of how herd immunity works it doesn’t. If I am not immune to measles but everyone I come into contact with is immune, how can I possibly catch measles? That’s how herd immunity works, in a similar way to fire-breaks preventing the spread of forest fires.
Give the misinformation you have posted here, I strongly suspect that’s because you don’t understand it at all.
I wonder where these “100% vaccinated populations” are being found. At minimum, they would have to be entirely isolated groups that included no children too young to be vaccinated, with proof of recent vaccination for everyone else (not relying on assumptions or memories of what people were told about their childhood vaccines).
A population doesn’t stop at the legal borders of a town; the unvaccinated person who delivers the heating oil or works in the same building as your vaccinated neighbor is part of the population; are their spouses, neighbors, and children vaccinated?
APV, I opened that link. I then did word search for “peanut”. Nothing came up. I then looked at the very first paragraph. I’ve bolded the relevant part.
Trace quantities. That’s not “contamination”.
http://www.excipientfest.com/europe/pdf/EFE14%20June%2024,%20A1%20The%20Joint%20IPEC-PQG%20GMP%20Guide.pdf
“How is excipient
manufacture regulated?
• To the surprise of many the
manufacture and supply of excipients
is unregulated by any agency
• European legislation puts the onus on
the user, the MA holder to ensure that
starting materials are of a ‘suitable’
standard”
Does that inspire much confidence in vaccine/injection safety?
Julian Frost #1280,
You will notice there are numerous food protein contaminants including ovalbumin, yeast, soy, gelatin, casein etc. listed. Then of course there are undeclared contaminants in Polysorbate 80 and sorbitol derived from food sources. Then you have the undeclared contents of the growth media.
Trace quantity is too much when “very trace” quantity can cause anaphylaxis.
“very trace milk protein” in DPT is causing anaphylaxis.
http://www.medpagetoday.com/MeetingCoverage/AAAAI/25520
“We were struck by the fact that just in our practice we had seven patients with milk allergy who had these severe reactions and we believe it is due to contamination of milk protein in this vaccine.”
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(11)00747-0/fulltext
8-18ng/ml of casein is the “very trace” contaminant that caused anaphylaxis.
And it has been shown that you need less than an elicitation dose to cause sensitization.
So, when you are talking about vaccines (a supposedly scientific endeavor), you would hope the CDC/FDA will use somewhat less ambiguous terminology and actual quantities instead of such utter nonsense as “trace quantities”.
The FDA/CDC’s “trace quantities”, are life-threatening levels of contamination.
Krebiozen 1278#,
If a study shows problems with vaccine safety, the study design and statistics MUST be flawed.
If the study shows vaccines are safe, no one cares what study design or statistics are used (except may be the Cochrane people).
Apart from all the CDC/FDA problems I have pointed out, you have now added “horrible”, “execrable” study performed by the CDC, by people who do not “understand statistics”. That should surely add confidence to vaccine safety?
For all these studies, statistics and fantastic medical advances, there’s one little question nobody in the medical community can answer …
Why can’t you safely open a packet of peanuts in an aircraft cabin today?
Once again, Vinu Arumugham:
No, you haven’t.
You’ve demonstrated a number of things, such as that you’re willing to trot out nonsense and then just run the hell away when called out on it and that you lie about being a medical student over a Medscape because you’re desperate for attention to your idée fixe, among other unsavory traits, but you’ve never managed to do this.
That’s true, you have to watch it. Last time I tried to open one of these little bags, my elbow jabbed the guy next to me in the jaw.
Seriously. A bag full of peanut., in other word full of allergens, about to get into aerosol What’s the “little question nobody in the medical community can answer “?
Is APV trying to say that peanut allergies are due to their non-existence in vaccination, but not to peanut bags being handed on airplanes?
APV,
Yet more lies. It was vaccine safety studies that found an increased risk of intussusception with the Rotashield vaccine, leading to its withdrawal. The whole cell pertussis vaccine was replaced by the acellular version due to safety concerns picked up by large scale studies, and in several countries (though not the US) the Urabe mumps vaccine was replaced with a strain that had fewer side effects. Vaccine safety studies and post-marketing surveillance work, and evidence of safety concerns is taken very seriously.
Hooker’s study was not performed by the CDC, it was a grossly incompetent reanalysis of the data from a CDC study by a true believer in the vaccine-autism link.
What a very stupid question.
I suppose the reason that you continue to insist that vaccines contain or contained peanut allergens, despite a complete lack of evidence for this, is that this is necessary for your ‘vaccines cause food allergies’ hypothesis to be true. This is a classic example of someone attempting to distort the evidence to fit their hypothesis, instead of fitting their hypothesis to the evidence.
J. Barthelow Classen, MD, immunologist and the author of the present study says “since 1999 the routine pediatric immunization schedule has increased by 80 vaccines” (that number counts each strain of antigenic virus or bacteria that have been included in the new inoculants). Classen believes that “the sum of the data described and reviewed in this paper supports a causal relationship”. From the perspective of the tens of thousands of parents (since the “age of autism” began just just a few decades ago) who know for certain that their previously happy, developmentally normal infants were sickened shortly after routine vaccinations, Dr Classen’s powerful scientific research cannot be discounted, even with the expected media blitz that is expected from Big Pharma, the AMA, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the AAFP, the CDC, the WHO and the various trade organizations that profit so mightily from the vaccine industry.
This important article was published exactly one year ago this week, on February 19, 2014, in the Journal of Molecular and Genetic Medicine. The entire original article and the 42 supporting journal references are available at: http://www.vaccines.net/vaccine-induced-immune-overload.pdf.
– Gary G. Kohls, MD
Review of Vaccine Induced Immune Overload and the Resulting Epidemics of Type 1 Diabetes and Metabolic Syndrome, Emphasis on Explaining the Recent Accelerations in the Risk of Pre-diabetes and other Immune Mediated Diseases
Author: J. Barthelow Classen MD, J Mol Genet Med 2014, S1:025
http://www.vaccines.net/vaccine-induced-immune-overload.pdf.
APV:
Horse apples. This has been pointed out to you before.
As for your two studies, the first one involved “children who [all] had high levels of immunoglobulin antibody to milk protein”. In other words, people with a contraindication. In addition, the reactions were traced back to a single lot. The other also involved already allergic patients.
Once again, you haven’t proven that vaccines induce allergies.
I smell equine faeces.
GnkoBiloba’s entire comment reads like a press release. And given that the human body can handle an antigen load equivalent to 10,000 vaccines in one day, I think Orac might want to give this article some insolence.
Julian Frost #1288,
“Once again, you haven’t proven that vaccines induce allergies.”
The part you don’t understand is that if there is enough allergen in the vaccine to cause an allergic reaction, there is more than enough to induce allergy. The fact that the vaccines caused anaphylaxis is proof that they can induce milk allergy in a healthy non-allergic person.
Julian Frost #1288,
“In other words, people with a contraindication.”
1 in 15 children have food allergies. With food protein contaminated vaccines, vaccines are contraindicated for 1 in 15 children. Herd immunity goes out the window.
With the FDA/CDC refusing to clean up the contaminants, they are jeopardizing herd immunity.
May be the measles and whooping cough outbreaks are fueled by children who are unvaccinated due to contraindication to contaminated vaccines.
So why don’t you demand that the FDA/CDC remove contaminants from vaccines?
Julian Frost #1289,
“human body can handle an antigen load equivalent to 10,000 vaccines in one day”
Even if that were true, natural antigens are not suspended in an aluminum gel designed to fool the immune system, with the depot effect and cytotoxic actions.
So the number of antigens themselves may not be the problem but they are injected along with food proteins, self antigens and adjuvants, the effects of which few want to look at carefully.
@APV – what are you going to do with yourself when the comment section here is closed?
I think you and MjD should write a book – I believe there is still space in the American Loon encyclopedia for you….
APV:
Oh I understand your argument perfectly. I just don’t think it’s the case that vaccines are responsible for the supposed increase in allergies. Oh, and one of the recent links you posted above agreed.
It doesn’t mean that 1 child in 15 has an egg allergy, or a milk allergy. There are different allergies and many involve substances that were never in vaccines, like e.g. gluten.
APV writes
Dangerous allergic reactions to vaccines are very rare, actually.
So vaccines are not dangerous for 1 in 15 children.
There’s a question of quantity, for one thing. The actual amount of allergens in vaccines is probably very small.
Also, just because an allergen affects you when you eat it, doesn’t necessarily mean it will affect you via injection. Allergies can be local.
I have a delayed-reaction egg allergy, but I get the flu vaccine with trace amounts of egg in it, with no problems.
Laura #1295,
“There’s a question of quantity, for one thing. The actual amount of allergens in vaccines is probably very small.”
Yes, that is exactly what I am talking about. The question of quantity. Why is there no specification or regulation of the quantity of allergens in vaccines? Why the vague “probably very small”? Where is the science in something that we inject into babies?
It has been repeatedly demonstrated that the “probably very small” quantity of allergen can be life-threatening. And as I have stated repeatedly, if it can cause anaphylaxis, there’s more than enough allergen to induce allergy.
You might have a point.
But have you looked into the answer?
That’s what I would do if I was concerned about it. I would find out what the CDC or the vaccine manufacturer says in answer to that question.
Maybe there is indeed info about the amount of various food allergens in the vaccine available.
Maybe there are alternative vaccines that are free of the allergen.
Maybe there’s a good reason why they can’t make the vaccine without the allergen.
With major allergens like egg, it wouldn’t be just probably a very small amount. It has to be a small amount of allergen in the vaccine. Otherwise there would be too many severe reactions to it.
What’s your proof of that? I doubt one vaccine would start an allergy. Any documented cases where that happened?
An injection of allergen might be more likely to induce tolerance than allergy. That’s how allergy shots work.
“Why is there no specification or regulation of the quantity of allergens in vaccines?”
Where in this http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/Guidances/Vaccines/ucm076612.htm#DRUGPRODUCT do your read that you can put whatever you want in the vaccine as filler and not tell anyone about it.
It isn’t that they add the egg protein in just to add it, but just like you can’t be sure you got every last speck of peanut out of the machine before you make the next batch of food-like substance if any one product in the whole line has peanuts in it, you can’t be certain that some bit of what grew the virus doesn’t make it to the end product even after all the purification steps.
You don’t have to add random cheap fillers to a vaccine to fill up the space, so no need to add random dried up bits of cheap food like you might in a capsule to fill up the space properly. I mean you just dilute it out to the right .concentration with sterile water or saline buffer as appropriate.
also found this : In the past, influenza vaccine manufacturers did not state the egg protein content of the vaccines. Now most manufacturers of these vaccines provide this information in the package inserts. http://www.uptodate.com/contents/influenza-vaccination-in-individuals-with-egg-allergy. I’m sure they’ll show you the package insert if you want to see it should you ever go to be vaccinated and there is a table of concentrations available at the link.
APV/vinucube/Vinu Arumugham:
You wrote,
“So Avantor figured out after producing the product for 4 years (2007-2011) that they left peanut out of the datasheet? And then they coincidentally start marketing the product as “of non-peanut origin”? Need a lot of salt to swallow that …”
“they changed the product (from peanut origin to other sources). They THEREFORE updated the datasheet to reflect the change in the product.”
“I have shown that versions of injectable grade Polysorbate 80 contain peanut protein.”
You are lying.
I asked my contacts at Avantor, and they stated,
“The product was never made with peanuts.”
and,
“Peanut was added because a customer wanted it called out and it is a common allergen. ”
I look forward to your retraction. Which will never come, because you are extraordinarily dishonest and you have no integrity whatsoever.
Tell us what you will say to your children when they discover how much you lie. Remember, anyone searching for your name and “vaccines” will immediately find this thread and will discover how dishonest you are.
OccamsLaser #1299,
I pointed out that Avantor’s datasheet carried the following statement. Posters here suggested, the product is allergen-free but the lawyers added the statement.
“Please be advised that the product is sourced from substances of vegetable (corn, palm, sunflower, or coconut).”
Now, you expect those same lawyers to admit that they used peanuts in their product?
“The products listed do not contain wheat, rye, oats, barley, spelt, malt, triticale, gluten, other grains, soybean, eggs, yeast, canola, dairy products, seafood products, peanuts, natural grape products, natural flavors, artificial flavors,
celery, lactose, sulfites, elemental sulfur, preservatives, MSG, disodium guanylate/inosinate, artificial sweeteners, phenylalanine, additives, colorants, dyes, or natural rubber (latex).”
They have numerous uncommon allergens listed above, but they conveniently left out a common allergen – peanut, until 2011.
And they waited for a customer to ask?
“Peanut was added because a customer wanted it called out and it is a common allergen. ”
And you believe that story?
Laura #1297,
“But have you looked into the answer?”
Yes, I did and posted it here. Pl. see #522.
“Maybe there are alternative vaccines that are free of the allergen.”
My understanding is that all FDA approved vaccines have their package inserts available at fda.gov.
There are no allergen-free versions of vaccines.
“Otherwise there would be too many severe reactions to it.”
There are and that’s why they studied it here:
In 2009, up to 38.3 mcg/ml of egg protein:
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749%2809%2902305-7/fulltext
“Since the 1997-1998 influenza season, 51 lots of vaccine have been tested. The brands and lots with the lowest level of ovalbumin were chosen for vaccination of egg allergic patients to avoid adverse events. The concentration of ovalbumin in the same brand varied from year to year (e.g. Flumist®: 005-0.8 μg/ml; Flushied®, 6.90-38.30 μg/ml; Fluarix®, 0.025-0.31 μg/ml; Fluzone®, 0.30-8.05 μg/ml; Fluvirin®, <0.01-0.55 μg/ml)."
In 1967, 7.4 mcg/ml.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC377279/pdf/applmicro00114-0216.pdf
More proof that allergens in vaccines are unregulated.
"if it can cause anaphylaxis, there’s more than enough allergen to induce allergy.
What’s your proof of that? I doubt one vaccine would start an allergy. Any documented cases where that happened?"
DTaP followed by DTaP produced no anaphylaxis.
DTaP followed by MMR produced anaphylaxis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9949325
DTaP had 48-200mcg/ml of gelatin. Enough to sensitize (induce allergy) but no enough to elicit a reaction.
MMR had 10mg of gelatin. Enough to sensitize and elicit reactions.
In 1908, it was demonstrated that as little as 50ng of egg protein was needed to sensitize guinea pigs.
A 25mg dose was used to elicit a reaction.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/30071840?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
"An injection of allergen might be more likely to induce tolerance than allergy. That’s how allergy shots work."
Pollen allergies are different from food allergies.
Allergy shots work for pollen allergy and similar "natural allergies".
One is not usually prescribed Epipen for pollen allergy, like they do for food allergies.
Our body has evolved to deal with pollen proteins. So pollen proteins are a nuisance but they are not life-threatening.
Food allergy is a man-made problem. Food proteins were not commonly injected into organisms during evolution.
Injecting food proteins is a man-made phenomenon. Allergy shots won't work. That is why you have other experimental therapies such as oral immunotherapy (OIT).
Food proteins naturally are expected to be broken down into harmless amino acids, by digestion before they come into contact with the immune system. Injections bypass this natural barrier and have created an artificial problem.
KayMarie #1298,
“do your read that you can put whatever you want in the vaccine as filler and not tell anyone about it.”
The problem is the vaccine package insert lists Polysorbate 80 or sorbitol for example. They do not list the possible allergens they contain. These excipients are derived from food sources. As you rightly point out, at the end of the process, you cannot be sure that every last speck of contaminating protein was removed.
When you are making a product that you are going to inject into people, the logical step would then be to determine what level of food protein contamination is safe. Then create and enforce a specification to ensure product safety.
The FDA has failed to do that. There is no safe limit established nor enforced. That is why we have a food allergy epidemic.
“You don’t have to add random cheap fillers to a vaccine to fill up the space”
Yes, but they need to add excipients to stabilize and keep the viral proteins from degrading. The excipients can be contaminated with unknown type and quantity of food protein because there is no specification or regulation.
Even the excipient makers are surprised there is no regulation:
http://www.excipientfest.com/europe/pdf/EFE14%20June%2024,%20A1%20The%20Joint%20IPEC-PQG%20GMP%20Guide.pdf
Slide 6:
“How is excipient
manufacture regulated?
• To the surprise of many the
manufacture and supply of excipients
is unregulated by any agency
• European legislation puts the onus on
the user, the MA holder to ensure that
starting materials are of a ‘suitable’
standard”
APV:
Yes, actually.
Has it ever occurred to you to demonstrate that anybody uses peanut oil to manufacture polysorbate 80 in the first place? I mean, it’s plain that you’re too determinedly lazy, dishonest,* or both to so much as figure out how oleic acid is obtained,** but have you ever wondered what that “non-animal” bit was doing there first?
* Your lone comment as “john doe” at MDC is duly noted.
** Or sorbitol; the immediately preceding “kosher tapioca” pratfall still cracks me up, now even more given that you failed to connect the dots between Croda’s “Crillet HP 4” and
J.T. Baker’s #4117.
No, dipshіt, “that” is not what polysorbate 80 is “for.” Frankly, I thought Laura was simply ill-advisedly feeding your pathetic, dogged pleas for attention until you barfed up this bit of jaw-dropping idiocy as a result. Where are the “viral proteins” in DTaP? What does “lyophilized” mean? Have you ever made salad dressing?
“Food proteins were not commonly injected into organisms during evolution.”
As I pointed out weeks ago, this is obviously untrue. Our ancestors, all the way back to prehumans, handled food even though their hands had open cuts. They cut themselves while preparing food. They ate even if their mouths had open sores. They got bitten by animals that had food residues on their teeth. They got stuck by thorns. If a few nanograms of food proteins under the skin routinely caused lethal allergies, neither we nor most of the animal population would exist.
Still about injection of stuff under the skin, anyone who had to walk through forest underbrush and meet some thorny plants in the process will have some inkling as to why our ancestors invented clothing, even under warm climates. There are some places you don’t want to be stung.
APV,
We’ve been through this before. You can’t argue that pollen allergy has somehow evolved as a benefit to humans, any more than you can argue that fatal anaphylaxis due to a bee sting has. Our immune systems are immensely complex and sometimes develop glitches.
I don’t see any evidence that food allergy is a man-made problem, especially since food allergies were reported long before any vaccines containing food proteins were injected, as we discussed what seems like a very long time ago somewhere above.
In fact I don’t see any evidence that injecting proteins can cause food allergies at all. All the century-old evidence we discussed before used injected proteins to induce allergies that were also elicited by injection, either intraperitoneal or intravascular. I also note that these were all animal studies. Is there any evidence that injected food proteins can lead to food allergies in humans?
@APV
Maybe it works the opposite way. Maybe the tiny amounts of food allergen in vaccines, actually desensitize people a little bit to the allergen.
After all, allergy shots are injections of allergen that desensitize people. The allergy shot causes an immune reaction that ends up reducing the allergy.
There are various ways in which allergens contact the body. Some kinds of contact with allergen tend to create tolerance, some are sensitizing.
From what I’ve read, injecting allergen actually tends to create tolerance to the allergen.
APV/vinucube/Vnu Arumugham:
First, it is certainly true that you are an expert on lying, as you have been caught lying repeatedly here about such things as you claim EMD Millipore’s Polysorbate 80 has maize and wheat, about what Phuong Tang of Aventor emailed you about the presence of cococnut oil and palm oil in that company’s Polsysorbate 80, and about your impersonating a medical student (you are actually an electronics engineer). So, you’re a serial liar; that has been amply proven. Even your claim to be an electronics engineer seems suspect, given how unintelligent you are, and how you are unable to grasp even elementary logic.
Given your own deep-seated dishonesty, you naturally assume that others act similarly, so it is unsurprising that you therefore would claim that anyone who says anything that doesn’t support your position (which is based on fabricated data, as has been shown) is lying — just as you lie when attempting to provide evidence for your claims.
You now make the painfully embarrassing argument that Avantor made their Polysorbate 80 from peanuts prior to 2011, and they willfully concealed that fact by intentionally omitting peanuts from the list of sources for that product on their product information sheet. Of course, because you are both not very intelligent and very dishonest, and blinded by bias, you fail to recognize that your argument fails for multiple reasons, not the least of which is that Avantor does, in fact, list other ingredients from which their product is made, including palm oil and coconut oil. That listing provides the proof that you are simply wrong when you make the claim that Avantor lies about the sources for that product. Furthermore, if it were true that Avantor made their product from peanuts, but decided to lie about that, they would simply have had peanuts on the allergens-not-present list all along. Therefore, your reasoning that Avantor added peanuts to the allergens-not-present list after they stopped using peanuts as a source for the product fails completely.
And, of course, you have not presented a scintilla of direct evidence that Avantor’s Polysorbate 80 was ever made from peanuts. Your entire argument boils down to the fact that Avantor has unambiguously stated that they never used peanuts, and that you do not believe them — therefore, they used peanuts, according to your sadly paranoid dishonest view of the world.
According to you, there was a vanishingly low rate of food and pollen allergies prior to the use of vaccination, and now there is an epidemic-level rate — but only among the vaccinated; the unvaccinated, according to you, still have a vanishingly low rate of food and polled allergies.
This should be almost trivial to prove. Yet, despite all your lie-ridden posts here and in other blogs, and your lengthy personal blog, you have never, ever presented a scintilla of evidence that this is true.
Instead of writing such cowardly utterances as. “And you believe that story?”, go ahead and have some guts: State directly that Avantor is lying now, and that they secretly used peanuts to manufacture their Polysorbate 80 and concealed that fact.
I dare you.
Do you have the courage?
Uh-oh.
OccamsLaser #1310,
Polysorbate 80 Super Refined (injectable grade) datasheet:
http://askavantor.force.com/servletfileField?id=0BEG0000000TSXu
It is of non-peanut origin, but peanut is still NOT listed in the “do not contain” list.
Are they still waiting for a “customer who wants it called out”?
So they are unable to guarantee EVEN TODAY that their Polysorbate 80 Super Refined is free of peanut protein.
In engineering, you go by the datasheet.
Per the datasheet, Avantor is unable to guarantee that the product is free of peanut protein.
If their datasheet is wrong and has been for years, that raises questions about the company’s quality control process.
Laura #1309,
Allergy shots are not a treatment method for food allergy.
As I wrote, pollen allergy is a “natural allergy” and allergy shots may work. They do not work for food allergy.
Charles Richet had the same idea. He thought if he injected sea anemone poison into dogs, they would develop tolerance to subsequent exposure (prophylaxis). But to his surprise, the dogs died on subsequent exposure. He was forced to coin the term anaphylaxis to describe his discovery.
We use his term today but we seem to have forgotten his discovery … you CANNOT thoughtlessly inject proteins into mammals without harmful consequences.
Narad #1311,
Old news:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1414850
Old by about 104 years:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/30073318?seq=14#page_scan_tab_contents
1) Instead of focusing on the root cause of sensitization (injections/vaccines), the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) wrongly assumed that GI mucosa exposure causes sensitization (like Krebiozen did).
2) They recommended avoidance of allergens.
They now admit it made the problem worse because not only are kids being sensitized by injections/vaccines, they lost their opportunity to generate tolerance as well.
3) Now the AAP and this paper are backpedalling, to introduce allergens back in the diet to get the tolerance back.
4) And the great part is that they still won’t look at the root cause od sensitization (injections/vaccines).
http://consumer.healthday.com/environmental-health-information-12/environment-health-news-233/peanut-house-dust-jaci-kcl-release-batch-1477-693864.html
Study senior author Gideon Lack, also of King’s College London, added, “This is further evidence for the dual-allergen-exposure theory, which suggests food allergies develop through exposure to allergens via the skin, likely through a disrupted skin barrier, whilst consumption of these food proteins early in life builds up tolerance in the body.”
The same Gideon Lack who said “food allergies develop through exposure to allergens via the skin, likely through a disrupted skin barrier”, used skin prick tests on kids in this latest study:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1414850
How many kids developed food allergy from those skin prick tests? Study results tainted by the skin prick tests?
No ethics concerns?
Disrupting the skin barrier with a vaccine needle and injecting allergens? Oh, those are perfectly safe as well? Talk about the tangled web of food allergy research …
Well, I suppose that’s something new.
Not like coming clean about lying about being a medical student, but still.
APV , understand that you can’t give up on your crackpot theory.YYou have clearly invested too much of your identity to examine email it rationally and let it go. Unfortunately for your claims, I and many other immunologists regularly inject proteins into mice and induce tolerance. I can, with the right dosing schedule, even inject many different proteins in alum and still get tolerance. It isn’t hard, and it isn’t unknown how. Your astonishing ignorance, oversimplification, and brain-rotting repetition do not make it true that “you cannot I just protein without causing allergy”. Congratulations on failing the Turing test.
APV:
It is of non-peanut origin, but peanut is still NOT listed in the “do not contain” list.
Are they still waiting for a “customer who wants it called out”?
So they are unable to guarantee EVEN TODAY that their Polysorbate 80 Super Refined is free of peanut protein.
This has been explained to you before. Peanuts were never used to make Polysorbate 80.
False. From http://www.food-allergy.org/page2.html
The rest of your commentary is the usual vague and unsupported rubbish you’ve spouted before.
Oh, what I would give for an edit feature that let me correct those lovely changes my phone inserted.
For the record folks, with structured dosing it is actually easier to induce tolerance with injected antigen than orally. Not surprising since you can control costimulation at an injection site but not in the GI tract.
Not surprisingly, APV’s assertion is exactly opposite of common immunological knowledge & current textbooks.
Is there any more takeaway here than that you’re certain that I’ll suffer anaphylaxis if I try to eat a housecat? I’m having trouble sorting out the implications.
What about “kosher tapioca”? Is it only allergenic during Pesach?
J.W.Chaplin,
http://www.webmd.com/allergies/guide/allergy-shots?page=2#1
“Do Allergy Shots Work for All Allergies?
A lot depends on how many things you are allergic to and how severe your symptoms are. Generally, allergy shots work for allergies to bee stings, pollen, dust mites, mold, and pet dander. There’s no proof that they work for food, drug, or latex allergies.”
So, pollen and other “natural allergies” are different from food, drug and latex allergies which are primarily man-made.
“I can, with the right dosing schedule, even inject many different proteins in alum and still get tolerance.”
With vaccines/injections, neither the allergen dose nor the schedule is controlled.
It is obvious that NOT EVERYONE who gets injected with egg contaminated flu vaccine develops egg allergy. We are talking about higher probability of developing food allergy when injections/vaccines are contaminated with food proteins.
If you think the Richet allergy model is a “crackpot theory”, could you please tell us what is causing the food allergy epidemic?
Julian Frost #1318,
Why would Avantor market their Polysorbate 80 as specifically non-peanut origin? Why not non-soy origin or non-yeast origin?
It would only make sense to differentiate your product as non-peanut origin, if either your own similar product or a competitor’s product is of peanut origin.
If using peanuts to make Polysorbate 80 is so alien, then marketing Polysorbate 80 as non-peanut origin is like marketing potato fries as wood-free.
No APV, YOU are the one taking 100 year old incomplete data and cherry-picked sound bites to misrepresent and distort a sand grain of truth into a Everest-sized mountain of B.S. Your “hypothesis” is in direct contradiction to observed facts and trends. You have shown an impressive degree of willful ignorance and more single-minded focus than most cranks, but that doesn’t make you right it just makes you a broken record.
Narad #1321,
Dr. Lack showed in a study that household peanut dust was causing peanut allergy through broken skin exposure (eczema).
But, Dr. Lack routinely uses skin prick allergen testing in his studies (allergen exposure through broken skin). So, based on his own results, he is inducing allergies in kids while performing his studies.
And logically, if allergen exposure through broken skin can induce allergy, injecting food allergens should induce allergy efficiently as well …
For the record APV, Richet’s work was sound but woefully incomplete as anyone would expect from studies that are 100 years old. Your “theory” (barely a hypothesis really) is the crackpot one.
Comment 90:
Comment 1313:
How’s imaginary med school going, Vinu Arumugham?
By this logic, they CLEARLY changed the formulation of Jell-o when they put “fat-free!” on the label, to distinguish it from all those other nasty fat-filled brands of gelatin. Oh, wait.
Hilariously, AoA’s resident HIV/AIDS denialist opines as follows:
Emma Crew #1327,
A customer buying Jell-O may compare it to say yogurt. He might choose Jell-O because it is labeled fat-free. A company that wants injectable grade Polysorbate 80 is not comparing it with peanut butter as an alternative.
APV:
Because vegetable oils are used to make it, not yeast or soy.
As was pointed out in the comments above, a brand of maple syrup was marketed as fat-free. This is despite the fact that no brand of maple syrup has ever has fat in it. Also pointed out was the fact that a brand of peanut butter was marketed as cholesterol-free, and peanut butter contains no cholesterol. It was simple marketing.
See above comment on fat-free maple syrup and cholesterol-free peanut butter.
In a case like that, I’d think they’d be much more likely to buy fat-free yogurt, you know?
The point is that it doesn’t take a marketing genius to notice that if you label your brand as “unpleasant ingredient free!” it creates a perception that the competitor’s brand JUST MIGHT include unpleasant ingredient (even if no brand ever has). In this case, there are plenty of folks going around on the Internet saying OMG PEANUTS IN VACCINES, it would make sense that companies manufacturing vaccine components would be glad to slap on “yeah, no peanuts here.” It is utterly commonplace to call out a lack of substances people are afraid of, even if they have nothing to do with your product.
*blink*
Yes, when I go to the store looking for fat-free yogurt and they’re out, the first thing that springs to mind instead is not 2% milkfat, but refrigerated Jell-O.
The irony that is utterly lost on you, Vinu Arumugham, fake med student, is that you have all along failed to demonstrate that the dumb shred that you have been reduced to clinging to has any bearing on the actual vaccine supply.
This doesn’t seem to be the case (redirect to PDF).
I’m not sure APV understands why the concepts of truth and falsehood are important. He seems to build his arguments based on how convincing they sound, rather than evidence and logic.
[…] that I’ve been blogging and since I first encountered him: “too many too soon“; argument by package insert; the pharma shill gambit; and, of course, the antivaccine dog whistle that ties vaccine […]
@APV
I know allergy shots aren’t used for food allergy.
But what makes you think allergy shots don’t work for food allergy?
The reason allergy shots aren’t used for food allergy is that people have too many severe reactions to the shots.
What I was saying is that injections of tiny amounts of food protein may well have a desensitizing effect.
What do you mean by a “natural allergy”? How is a food allergy “unnatural”?
Food proteins are proteins, pollen proteins are proteins … Inhaled proteins go down your GI tract to some extent too, and can cause reactions when you eat them, if you’re severely allergic. This happens to me.
For example, unfiltered honey has a lot of pollen in it and makes me sick if I eat it. Filtered honey is OK.
But I have seen no proof of this higher probability from you.
The tiny amounts of food allergen in vaccines might actually have a (tiny) desensitizing effect.
I have many delayed-reaction food allergies, and one frustrating thing about it is that I suspect allergy shots would work for them, AND be safe. With delayed-reaction food allergies, the IgE antibodies in the blood aren’t elevated as they are in “classical” food allergies, so I doubt there would be a risk of severe reactions to allergy shots.
There’s a “basophil activation test”, a diagnostic blood test that’s been tried in research on these kinds of food allergies. So basophils in the blood might be activated by allergy shots with the food allergen.
I have been trying (with the help of my allergists) to desensitize myself orally to the delayed-reaction food allergies, by taking allergy medications before eating a tiny amount of the food – a few milligrams with most foods. I’ve built up tolerance somewhat, but haven’t yet been able to reintroduce any foods in normal quantities.
@APV
If vaccines were actually causing allergies to the food proteins present in tiny amounts in vaccines, we should see an increase in allergies to those foods among people receiving the vaccines.
Do you have any evidence that has happened?
You cited a 1988 study that showed an increase in IgE antibodies to egg a few weeks after receiving a flu vaccine.
Their bodies generated an immune response to the egg protein in the flu vaccine.
But, that study did not show that those people developed an egg allergy because of the flu vaccine. So far as I can tell, they continued to be able to eat eggs. If they had developed an egg allergy, the authors would probably have mentioned it!
@J. W. Camplin
I have a question, perhaps you have a guess as to the answer, being an immunologist.
I get allergy shots, and I get a hazy feeling from the shots. Do you know what might be causing this? The hazy feeling comes on starting maybe 15 minutes after getting the shot.
Absolutely. It’s a bit like labeling a bottle of hard apple cider “gluten free”. I’m not aware of any apple cider that *isn’t* gluten free, but they put the label on there anyway since it’s no skin off their backs and might possibly convince a few more people to try it.
Yes that marketing habit has been going on for decades. Drives me nuts when something that never had X in it comes out as X free.
Thanks APV, for my next business “wood free fries”. As long as I can convince people that there’s something wrong with wood (sometimes treated with arsenic don’t ya know…) we can fabricate a market. Happens all the time. Listerine fabricated the halitosis market, the whole “gluten-free” thing has become a marketing scam, etc. I’ve seen table salt listed as gluten free, go to Whole Foods and take a look. Tell me that wheat, barley, or rye were used in salt production prior to the labeling – go on. Idiot.
Dear Laura, first – good catch. Yes, the implication of our current understanding of reactivity/tolerance is that there’d be just as much chance, if not more, to desensitize as to sensitize from alleged trace allergens in vaccines. Second, if you have DTH (Delayed Type Hypersensitivity) variant allergies they are not IgE or histamine mediated. Blocking with standard allergy medications won’t do much. DTH allergies are T cell mediated and drive a cytokine storm, usually resulting in low blood pressure, slightly elevated temperature, and impaired cognition. Anti-inflammatories (even NSAIDS) will help limit this but not block it, drink lots of water, keep cool (literally), and wait for it to pass. Unfortunately, not much else to do for DTH reactivity. Sorry.
I’m not sure if mine would be called delayed – the foggy feeling starts about half an hour after eating the food, and comes on fully about 4-5 hours later. I’ve read that cell-mediated reactions are generally more delayed, like a day or so.
Allergy meds do help decrease the reaction. I take oral cromolyn, loratadine and Singulair before eating these small amounts of food. The cromolyn seems to be the most helpful. Allergists have suggested cromolyn to me for the food reactions.
From what I’ve read, there are food allergies that cause skin problems that are definitely cell-mediated (possibly could be diagnosed by an atopy patch test).
But for the kind of food hypersensitivities that I have, the mechanism is unknown (at least the last I read). I read some articles by Dr. Antonio Carroccio on non-celiac gluten sensitivity, which is often associated with multiple food hypersensitivities in his experience. I wasn’t sure whether he was talking about the same kind of reactions that I have. So I emailed him outlining the symptoms, minimum amount to cause a reaction, medications that helped, and asked him if the hypersensitivities he described were similar. He kindly replied and said they were.
I also asked him whether these food hypersensitivities might be IgE-mediated but local to the GI tract (gut, mouth perhaps). He had described them as not Ige-mediated in his articles, but I didn’t see how he knew that. He said they were investigating the possibility of a localized IgE-mediated reaction as well.
I’ve read a lot of research articles on this subject. It seems people can have local allergies in the gut, for example see Local allergic reaction in foodhypersensitive adults despite a lack of systemic food-specific IgE
He said in his papers that they had found mucosal eosinophil infiltration in the duodenum and colon in NCGS patients (when it was from an immune reaction).
I found out recently that for inhalants, the late-phase allergic reaction is independently initiated in some people. It’s not just an “allergic cascade”, in other words – it’s not all started when IgE binds to mast cells. Apparently IgE/antigen complexes can bind to dendritic cells. So there could be stuff going on that looks cell-mediated from the symptoms, but is still IgE-mediated.
So, I’ve wondered if there’s something like that with IgE complexes going on with my delayed-reaction food allergies. I’ve wondered if they are similar to inhalant allergies, with an early phase and a late phase, but the early phase is mild and the late phase is intense.
Anyway – I was wondering what might cause a hazy feeling after allergy shots? I have very severe allergic reactions to inhalants that make me mentally foggy for days, and I’ve thought that might be related to the haziness after allergy shots. Most people don’t get hazy after allergy shots and most people don’t have inhalant allergic reactions that last for days, so I think those two things might be connected. I take loratadine before allergy shots and I think it makes the haziness somewhat less.
Actually rather than IgE/antigen complexes binding to dendritic cells, it seems the IgE binding to the FceR1 receptor on dendritic cells captures antigen, presenting it to T cells and generating a reaction from there.
From High-Affinity IgE Receptors on Dendritic Cells Exacerbate Th2-Dependent Inflammation:
This is for inhalant allergies.
From Mechanisms of immunotherapy: IgG revisited:
So yes, it does involve T cells.
Again talking about inhalant allergies, but perhaps something similar might be happening with food hypersensitivities.
@APV
Epicutaneous exposure to food proteins – skin contact – can cause allergy to those proteins when eaten. There are various papers on that (google epicutaneous sensitization food allergy).
But that’s different from exposure by subcutaneous or intramuscular injection, as occurs with allergy shots or vaccines. It doesn’t imply that traces of food protein in vaccines tend to cause sensitization.
J.W.Chaplin #1342,
“Yes, the implication of our current understanding of reactivity/tolerance is that there’d be just as much chance, if not more, to desensitize as to sensitize from alleged trace allergens in vaccines.”
1. Vaccines contain allergens (fact, not alleged).
2. So you admit that current understanding is there is a chance of sensitization by allergens in vaccines.
3. We have a raging food allergy epidemic. And no one wants to pull their head out of the sand and investigate vaccines/injections as a possible contributor?
4. Why no regulation of allergen content in vaccines?
Again, if you think vaccines/injections are not the cause, could you please tell us what is causing the food allergy epidemic?
APV:
Proof needed that the rate of food allergies has exploded over the last century.
What a load of horse apples. You yourself posted studies which you (incorrectly) believed supported your hypothesis. Why you now turn around and state that nobody wishes to investigate it is bewildering.
Once again, it is not up to us to prove that your hypothesis is wrong, it is up to you to prove it is right. But since you are so granite skulled…
APV/vinucube/Vinu Arumugham –
Again, you’ve established that you’re a deeply dishonest person who lies constantly. You have not even denied that you’ve lied repeatedly, much less attempted a defense of your lies. Let’s keep that in mind.
You lied about what a Polysorbate 80 datasheet said, you lied about what you were told by a representative of Avantor about the composition of their Polysorbate 80 product, you lied about being a medical student, and so on.
Everyone who reads this thread — your children and people with an interest in the subject of any possible vaccine-allergy link — will discover that you are terribly dishonest, and you can’t be trusted at all to tell the truth about anything.
You are also a coward. You’ve indicated that if you were (really) a medical researcher, you would be so afraid of the repercussions that you would refuse to participate in a study that might show a link between vaccines and allergies. How sad.
You have also insinuated that Avantor made their Polysorbate 80 from peanuts while lying and declaring that they did not. However, because you’re a coward, you don’t have the guts to make a direct accusation. Coward.
But here’s the central point that destroys your position: You have proposed a hypothesis (for which you have not posted any honest supporting evidence) to explain a phenomenon. However, you have not shown that the phenomenon even exists.
The phenomenon that you are attempting to explain is the existence of a food allergy epidemic ONLY AMONG VACCINATED CHILDREN.
Before an explanation need be considered to explain a phenomenon, the phenomenon needs to be shown to be in evidence. You have not even provided evidence of a correlation between vaccination status and allergies; therefore, you do not even have a basis to assert a causal linkage for such a correlation, much less to propose a specific mechanism to explain any such causal linkage.
Dishonest, cowardly, and wrong. Did I miss anything?
Peanut oil in Vitamin K shots.
Remington: The Science and Practice of Pharmacy
edited by David B. Troy, Paul Beringer
pg. 803 says, corn, cottonseed, peanut and sesame oil are most commonly used as a vehicle in Vitamin K injection formulations.
Every newborn is injected with it.
https://books.google.com/books?id=NFGSSSbaWjwC&pg=PA803&dq=Remington:++vitamin+K+peanut+oil&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Iz3xVLXkO5GrogShl4DgBg&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Remington%3A%20%20vitamin%20K%20peanut%20oil&f=false
Sesame Seed Allergy: A Growing Problem?
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=52926
Vinu, the stench of your stupid, desperate attention-seeking reminds me of one time when I wound up with an nth-hand laptop that gave off “Axe Body Spray” fumes for a good four years.
Explain, in your own words, what “polyoxyethylated fatty acid derivative” means and how one does that.
Julian Frost #1347,
“We do know what causes food allergies: exposure to foods combined with a genetic susceptibility and other factors.”
Exposure to foods through vaccine/injection contamination?
Redirecting to things that we know actually contain(ed) peanut oil, did anything definitive ever come of that “infant eczema cream compounded with peanut oil may be contributing to the incidence of peanut allergy” thing what, a decade ago? On the face of it it sure seems more likely than vaccines.
Emma Crew #1352,
“infant eczema cream compounded with peanut oil may be contributing to the incidence of peanut allergy”
Eczema creams, skin prick allergy tests, vaccines/injections can all be contributors.
Narad #1350,
Perhaps you are referring to this version of Vitamin K:
http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/archives/fdaDrugInfo.cfm?archiveid=1702
Remington is referring to a version that uses peanut/sesame oil in the Vitamin K shot.
J.W.Chaplin #1342,
“Yes, the implication of our current understanding of reactivity/tolerance is that there’d be just as much chance, if not more, to desensitize as to sensitize from alleged trace allergens in vaccines.”
If allergen proteins in vaccines caused desensitization/tolerance/unresponsiveness, then the viral proteins in the vaccines would do the same. The reason vaccines work is because you are sensitized to the viral proteins. So if your statement were true, vaccines would not work.
Smith-Norowitz TA, Wong D, Kusonruksa M, Norowitz KB, Joks R, Durkin HG, Bluth MH. Long Term Persistence of IgE Anti-Influenza Virus Antibodies in Pediatric and Adult Serum Post Vaccination with Influenza Virus Vaccine. Int J Med Sci 2011; 8(3):239-244. doi:10.7150/ijms.8.239. Available from http://www.medsci.org/v08p0239.htm
Julian Frost #1347,
“Proof needed that the rate of food allergies has exploded over the last century.”
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db10.htm
“You yourself posted studies which you (incorrectly) believed supported your hypothesis. Why you now turn around and state that nobody wishes to investigate it is bewildering.”
Yes, I have pointed to the studies showing food contaminants in vaccines/injections induce food allergies. Some researchers have even called for the removal of food contaminants. Why no action? Either remove food contaminants from vaccines/injections or if the CDC/FDA think more studies are needed, then they should perform them. They just sit there and warm their seats as more children are injured by contaminated vaccines/injections.
Laura #1338,
“If vaccines were actually causing allergies to the food proteins present in tiny amounts in vaccines, we should see an increase in allergies to those foods among people receiving the vaccines.
Do you have any evidence that has happened?”
Of course we see that. Vaccines definitely contain casein and ovalbumin. We have definitely seen an increase in egg and milk allergies. Vitamin K shots can contain peanut/sesame oil and we have seen an increase in peanut/sesame allergies.
“You cited a 1988 study that showed an increase in IgE antibodies to egg a few weeks after receiving a flu vaccine.
Their bodies generated an immune response to the egg protein in the flu vaccine.”
The study was performed because of a rise in egg allergies in Japanese children after they began mandatory influenza vaccination. As you have said, their bodies generated an immune response to the egg proteins contaminating the influenza vaccine. If vaccinated repeatedly, they will develop egg allergies.
Further, today we have an increase in c-section births which primes for allergy development. We have influenza shot administered with up to 4 other vaccines in one sitting as happened to my son. So the food protein contaminant immunogenicity is enhanced by the adjuvant effects of aluminum salts and pertussis toxin in the other vaccines.
So our children develop more severe allergies.
A reliable method of inducing egg allergy in rats?
Use pertussis vaccine with alum along with ovalbumin.
The human equivalent of getting a DTaP shot (which contains aluminum as an adjuvant) simultaneously administered with a flu shot.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22342543
Laura #1337,
“The reason allergy shots aren’t used for food allergy is that people have too many severe reactions to the shots.”
Exactly. The body has evolved to treat them differently.
“What do you mean by a “natural allergy”? How is a food allergy “unnatural”?”
Pollen has been commonly injected (by insect bites) into mammals and inhaled for as long as they have existed.
Our bodies have learned that pollen proteins are harmless. Our bodies still react but the only result is a pollen allergy nuisance but not a life-threatening overreaction.
Food allergens were never COMMONLY injected. So there was no chance to evolve and treat them as harmless. Injected food allergens are treated as if they are injected viruses.
J.W.Chaplin #1317,
“crackpot theory”
Dr. Polly Matzinger NIH/NIAID helped develop the danger model of the immune system.
I asked her about the Richet model and you can see her response here:
https://list.nih.gov/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind1305&L=immuni-l&F=&S=&P=37286
You mean the one that is actually in use?
Say goodnight, Vinu.
At least this monstrosity will go away on the 5th.
Once again APV, you are straight up lying.
No, you pointed to studies that you assumed supported you. However at least one of the studies said:
Your comments here are FIFUSOD (Functionally indistinguishable from utter stupidity or dishonesty).
Since the discussion seems to be about allergies, why not blame the dishwasher?
Maybe that’s why I developed eczema when I got older after growing up washing all the dishes by hand.
But then I had jobs where I washed LOTS of dishes by hand.
So, maybe it’s something else entirely.
But, that’s the way science often works, unlike APV’s fantasies.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2015/02/23/387553285/kids-allergies-and-a-possible-downside-to-squeaky-clean-dishes?utm_source=npr_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=20150301&utm_campaign=mostemailed&utm_term=nprnews
Julian Frost #1362,
“In conclusion, vaccination programs do not explain the increasing prevalence of allergic diseases, but individual children may uncommonly develop an allergic reaction to a vaccine.”
That quote comes from:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11846867
That paper compares apples to oranges to come to its conclusion.
“In murine models, pertussis toxin is an effective adjuvant for IgE formation against simultaneously administered antigens. In children, however, sensitization to unrelated antigens or development of allergic diseases do not seem to be augmented.”
“simultaneously administered antigens” (apples) in murine models are being compared to “unrelated antigens” (oranges) in children.
We are talking about induction of food allergies caused by simultaneous administration of antigens (vaccine antigens and food antigens).
We are NOT talking about sensitization to unrelated antigens (such as pollen) due to vaccines.
Narad #1361,
“You mean the one that is actually in use?”
No, I mean the one with peanut/sesame oil which caused all the food allergies and has been quietly swept under the rug because too many people are asking tough questions ?
“Tough questions?”
All is see if someone who has been shown to lie consistently on a single thread on this blog…..you seem to have a bit of self-importance, don’t you?
Great, you can’t even figure out answers to your own comments. I suppose these things happen when no thoughts go into the latter in the first place.
In happier news, WordPress seems to expire based on days, so chickenshіt Vinu Arumugham, random Cisco grunt, who has had ages to explain why he is lying about being a medical student over at Medscape, is going to have to find someplace else to go after March 3.
^ Oh, right, Wοrdpress also sleazily and silently changes capitalization in comment text to butter its
lingamlogo.Sorry, asshοles, there are ways around that.
And where is your proof that such exists?
Oh right, you haven’t any.
The “Moon Landing is a hoax” conspiracy theorists have nothing on you.
@APV
Oh for crying out loud.
Do you have any idea how desensitization works? No, you don’t.
It works by injecting the allergen, up to the point the body will react to it by generating normal antibodies (IgG and their kin) instead of the allergy-related IgE.
In shorter words, a working vaccine will trigger a normal response from the immune system. An injection designed to desensitize from an allergen will trigger a normal response. Hence, the two are perfectly compatible.
Exposition to an allergen will trigger an abnormal response. One is not like the other.
Speaking of avoiding/reducing allergy by increasing exposure, an article showed up this week-end on the topic. Apparently, feeding peanut to babies decrease their risk of becoming allergic.
Helianthus #1370,
“Speaking of avoiding/reducing allergy by increasing exposure, an article showed up this week-end on the topic.”
Pl. see #1315.
Vaccines produce IgE and IgG to viral/bacterial proteins.
And IgE to viral proteins is part of the reason vaccines work.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-3083.2005.01710.x/pdf
http://www.jimmunol.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/188/1_MeetingAbstracts/113.9
Smith-Norowitz TA, Wong D, Kusonruksa M, Norowitz KB, Joks R, Durkin HG, Bluth MH. Long Term Persistence of IgE Anti-Influenza Virus Antibodies in Pediatric and Adult Serum Post Vaccination with Influenza Virus Vaccine. Int J Med Sci 2011; 8(3):239-244. doi:10.7150/ijms.8.239. Available from http://www.medsci.org/v08p0239.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/830756
“An injection designed to desensitize from an allergen will trigger a normal response. ”
Exactly. Contaminant proteins in vaccines are not “designed to desensitize” by definition. Hence they sensitize and induce allergy.
So because “contaminant proteins” (which you have failed to show exist in sufficient quantities to induce allergies) are not “designed to desensitize”, they ipso facto:
1) do not desensitize, and;
2) in fact, sensitize?
Is that what you’re postulating?
If so, all I can say is “logic fail”.