False balance about vaccines rises from the grave…again

Dr Jay has signed hundreds of personal belief exemption forms

The same Dr Jay who just told recently on another thread “You have me confused with someone who doesn’t vaccinate and who doesn’t adjust to new problems.”

The picture of a corkscrew comes into my mind.

“Measles isn’t coming back. We have 70 cases of measles right now and we have 30 million Californians.”

“Dr.” Jay is making the rookie mistake of using the entire population to dilute the attack rate of measles rather than susceptible population. Or maybe not a mistake and just dishonest. I’m glad “Dr.” Jay was given this platform to air his speshul beliefs, any public health official or physician up to their elbows controlling this outbreak who hasn’t heard of him, will. “Dr.” Bob is a little slicker and won’t give interviews to anyone who isn’t going to cast him in a good light.

“Dr. Jay pulls the old antivaccine trick of trying to convince CBS viewers that the measles is no big deal. He out and out says that he doesn’t think that the measles outbreak “poses any risk to a healthy child.” Seriously, he said that.”

The American Academy of Pediatrics should be thinking about how ignorance of this magnitude expressed by one of its members reflects on the organization as a whole.

Individual parents making that decision are not the ones bringing back measles

Reminds me of the demotivational poster for irresponsibility: “No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood.”

It’s not just kids with cancer. There are other health issues that mean children cannot be vaccinated. A friend of mine has a child with cystic fibrosis – and there are thousands like her in the UK and US. Her immune system is too weak to take vaccination, so she’s entirely dependent on those around her being vaccinated. A serious bout of infectious disease could literally kill her – no exaggeration. But I guess to the anti-vax bunch that’s just fine if i’s someone else’s dead kid. They were sick anyway, who cares? It makes me so mad.

I was glad that Orac explained the “argumentum ad Brady Bunchium” in a previous blog entry. I had thought (incorrectly) that it was the fallacy that Avocado Green was an acceptable refrigerator color.

The American Academy of Pediatrics should be thinking about how ignorance of this magnitude expressed by one of its members reflects on the organization as a whole.

He’s not just a member, he’s a Fellow (that’s why he proudly displays the credential FAAP). How he got that distinction I do not know, and I’m not sure I want to know.

I was JUST having a Facebook conversation about vaccines last night with an antivaxxer. We were friends over ten years ago before we had kids, and remained acquainted on FB. During our conversation, I occasionally turned to Google when I needed to get a stat, or snag a quote to reinforce my point.I was really disheartened by how much gobbledygook I had to muddle through before I got to some real information. What can I do to help change this? Combined with the advertising the antivax movement is doing, I’m really concerned this wildfire is going to spread out of control.

Sometimes you get lucky, no false balance here http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/28/health/measles-antivaxxers/index.html
Amazed that CNN actually takes a stand on the front page.

I’m guessing that this has already been posted, but I’m mentioning it again:

I Don’t Vaccinate My Child Because It’s My Right To Decide What Eliminated Diseases Come Roaring Back

It strikes just the right note.

““Dr.” Jay is making the rookie mistake of using the entire population to dilute the attack rate of measles rather than susceptible population. Or maybe not a mistake and just dishonest. “

In my opinion, it’s blatant dishonesty. He’s been told time and time again how incidence rates work. Hell, I dedicated a whole blog post on the Epi Night School to it:

http://epinightschool.blogspot.com/2012/11/incidence-and-prevalence-part-one.html

I kept referring him to it whenever he said that hundreds of cases of measles was “statistical porn.”

Let’s face it. Dr. Jay Gordon seems to have chosen his camp. It’s not science and medicine. It’s something else.

It’s fame… Or infamy.

I actually read one of Dr. Jay’s/Sears’ books once, having innocently plucked them from a library shelf in the medical section (hah!). I had small children and rather liked the book at the time. The interesting thing is that when I questioned the family doctor about the vaxes, and he brushed off any ideas of harm from them, I BELIEVED him. He told me that “good doctors” don’t write books like that and I believed that too. Guess I was born skeptical–or a shill for allopaths! 🙂

How pediatricians like Dr. Jay and Dr. Bob can live with themselves, I don’t know.

They have followers who keep telling them how great they are and paying them well for their advice, and anyway, they are not “someone who doesn’t vaccinate and who doesn’t adjust to new problems”.
History is full of people who didn’t do anything wrong. Heck, if they repeat it often enough, they may come to believe it.

Although it’s certainly not as bad as what Orac has featured here, the LA Times had an interview in the editorial section of yesterday’s paper with Elena Conis (I’d never heard of her before, but she’s apparently an Emory University historian and has written a book about the history of vaccination) that struck me as being a great example of the fallacy of the golden mean. She described anti-vaxxing as being an outgrowth of the environmental and women’s health movements, but used a lot of weasel words to imply that it’s nearly as valid a concern as those are, and that if the paternalistic medical establishment would just start listening to mothers better the whole issue would melt away. Of course, I think everyone here realizes just how far from the truth that is.

Anyway, I’m not terribly good at picking apart opinion pieces like this in detail, but if anyone is interested in taking a look at the interview it’s on the LA Times website under the opinion section and looks like it’s free even to non-subscribers.

@JP, and considering that most of the “them” are consuming a low fat, high veggie, nutrient high diet, then they look around at the McDonalds/China buffet wide loads. They see themselves as the fit one and the rest of the rubes as the unhealthy one.

Sometimes entwined attributes cause problems in reaching the correct solution. The strong progressive cliche that I occasionally jam with looks by most demonstrative measures to be healthier, more fit. They are leaner, better conditioned and dare I say much better pickers and players. Thus, they are often “confused” that their choices are the best just because their outcomes are better than the general population.

Of course, I am sure both of us agree that the optimal strategy would be to follow much of the diet, exercise and lifestyle regime along with a sensible use and respect for standard medicine.

Liked your thought on “the new Calvinism”, although I tend to use that term towards those that have obtained wealth and believe that shows themselves as God’s favorite. Still, I like your usage too.

Isn’t there another ‘academy’ of pediatrics, that’s a haven for woomeisters and antivaxxers?

Last I checked, the case load from the Disney outbreak has just gone over 100, and approx. 20 of them are spread out across the country. America is well on its way to adopting yet another British cultural trend, to wit, endemic measles.

About Dr. Jay: I would hypothesise that the way he and his ilk operate, they look for little market niches they can occupy, where they can pick up a guaranteed clientele (at 170 dollars a pop) and gain fame (free marketing) by being ‘spokespeople’ for a ‘point of view.’ Pure distilled cynicism at first, until they come to believe their own horse stuff, and become True Evangelists for a Cause.

As for School Superintendent Steven Herzog, ‘We are monitoring the situation closely…’, that is just absolutely classic horse stuff, that one hears from witless wankers posing as management types, whether public sector or private sector. Someone needs to give him a full-strength dose of disrespectful insolence for that, followed by a disability rights lawsuit.

JP:

The thing is, I don’t think they can be reminded of that, or at least a lot of them can’t.

I think the ones that far down the rabbit hole of alt med are beyond reason. I’m thinking more of the everyday ones. I’ve encountered a lot of those on forums, people who are generally sensible but who think vaccines are unneccesary because hey, they’re healthy, so what do they have to fear? They hear “only unhealthy people have to worry” and think of Bubble Boy. They don’t realize that *everyone* is unhealthy at some point. Generally healthy people, strong, good evolutionarily fit people included. And the voices of people like Dr Jay feed that mindset. By dismissing measles as only something to worry about if you’re “unhealthy”, Dr Jay is riding that misconception. It’s a bait-and-switch. He is saying one thing, and almost certainly aware that people are hearing something different.

@ KayMarie
@ Richard Smith:

Who was/ were the Thinking Moms/s?
Anyone we know?

@Denice Walter

Just did a quick Google check, and it was Zoey O’Toole. Can’t watch it through the office firewall, but this page may have a relevant clip (Deseret News).

@JP Now, did I ever say that a healthy lifestyle was a panacea, or even a pancreas.

My point which is part of my theme, is that so many of the progressive/former commune types that I know are demonstratively healthier than hyper-obese no-vegs microwave only land walruses. Thus, the true effect of their other poor choices are often masked by the overall effect of multiple variables.

Almost a musing, about whom do you believe is being worse to their child, one that skips a MMR vac or one that allows their child to be obese. Yes, the worst case is an morbidly obese child with no vaccines and the best is a sensible diet fit vaccinated child.

I don’t mean this as a dog of straw, I actually saw this in meeting a few years ago with the parents of a blimpo complaining about the dirty disease carrying river hippes. The irony made me leave the auditorium.

P.S. My own efforts to obtain a measles vaccination for myself are not going smoothly. I might need to be tested first to confirm, and the dang testing will be out-of-pocket.

@Calli:

I guess I was thinking that anti-vaxxers sort of have to be pretty far down the alt-med rabbit hole to begin with. I suppose you’re right, though, there must be some fence sitters in amongst them, or at least some people susceptible to reason, given that Doctors Jay and Bob have had to be dissmissive of fears in the first place, and to start giving vaccines to worried parents and so on.

@Denice:

Funny story – I went to college with a guy who apparently believed in physical immortality. (He believed in a whole load of other BS, too.) He was also an insufferable git, but constantly wore this calm, beatific exterior which made it all the more annoying.

He was in a seminar once with myself and some of my friends, friends who I’m still close with, actually. Anyway, we were discussing an existentialist text on the fear of death, and he said, “Well, you only think you have to die because you believe in death.” I was, for once in my life, speechless. He also used to try to find any excuse to bring any conversation around to raw foods and superfoods and blah blah blah. It was super annoying.

Anyway, I was up visiting my friend Andy a few years back – he lives in Madison, WI, now – and we were like, “Hey, I wonder whatever happened to that guy we hated and used to make fun of all the time?” He’s down in NoCal now, livin’ the life. If you wanna barf, you should watch this hilarious conspiracy video of his. He gets, like, a million points for unironic use of the word “sheeple” and for flashing a book cover by David f***ing Icke when he starts talking about “truth tellers.” Oh, he also has an abysmally bad “rap” about raw cacao. And, of course, a website hawking expensive BS. Truly, I am ashamed to share an alma mater with this “man.”

@Colonel Tom:

I wasn’t arguing with you when I said a healthy lifestyle is no panacea, I was merely pointing out what is, to me, obvious. Referring to people as “land walruses” does actually smack a bit of the attitude which I find so distasteful in the alt-med types, though.

JP and Colonel Tom:
They are insufferable, self-adoring, candyarsed whiners, aren’t they?

Seriously, I think that to the faithful someone like me who exercises (perhaps 3-5 hours a week) eats carefully ( no red meat, lower fat, etc) and who has never been heavy would be considered just as lost as those who live on fast foods, never exercise, smoke and are quite overweight.

BECAUSE I’m not pure.
And I like a little gin and wine ( but not together)
And I occasionally eat cheese ((shudder))
some of which is blue/ bleu ((((((shudder)))))))
and I don’t police food labels for organic, GMO, chemical-free ( heh)
and I eat chicken and salmon.

There’s an OpEd in the LA Times today and the potential for suing anti-vax parents and/or doctors.

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-the-disney-measles-crisis-20150128-column.html#page=1

I’d compare Jay Gordon to excrement, but that would be an insult to excrement, which we can at least throw in the trash.

Carl Krawitt made an interesting point in the story I read on NPR:
“Krawitt has been speaking up about vaccination for a long time now. He told me about going to a parent meeting at his daughter’s school just before the start of the school year, where a staff member reminded parents not to send peanut products to school, since a child or children had an allergy. ‘It’s really important your kids don’t bring peanuts, because kids can die,’ Krawitt recalls the group being told.”
If schools can tell parents not to send PBJs for lunch, surely they can tell parents not to send unvaccinated children to school.
California (and most of the rest of the US) should just do what Mississippi and West Virginia do, and say that the only exemption from vaccination is medical contraindication.

And I will say this as well: WHERE is the American Academy of Pediatrics during all this? WHERE?

A: NOWHERE. They are true cowards who used to once speak up against groups like the NVIC but now won’t and have never, ever once done anything against the anti-vaccine members in their ranks–who all need to be expelled.

JP: It also makes no sense, cause walruses are found on both land and sea. I’ve heard of ‘land whales’ but I think the other is either a malaprop or a regionalism.
And of course ‘Colonel Tom’ works in public health. Since lilady’s time, that’s become a breeding ground of woo. Possibly because most of the people who work there tend to be the sort who think the heart overrules the brain and have an exaggerated sense of their own competence.

@JP, to my mind the phrase “land walrus” has no more negative connotations than morbidly obese, or type 2 diabetes. Could we settle on “dietary child neglect”?

@Denise Are you sure about the cheese? According to the “French Paradox” cheese might just be fine for you, although you might be talking the strain of vegetarian that eats no dairy. There so very interesting studies linking red meat to heart disease by way of digestive bacteria. So I’ve jumped on that “trend” too. , Although previously I only ate flesh that had been killed by my own hand. Although that was not a health reason. Can’t do the dairy for obvious genetic reasons.

Well, this is about as sad and distressing as the what is happening to Rhett Krawitt above: a 3 year-old getting labs at the end of chemotherapy for leukemia is exposed to measles at a pediatric clinic in Arizona (along with her 10 month old brother who is too young for the MMR vaccine). Dad is a pediatrician, and he is upset at the exposure as well has his children needing to receive IVIG for post-exposure prophylaxis. Oh…and 195 kids total were probably exposed at that clinic to measles. http://www.kpho.com/story/27967620/az-pediatrician-angry-over-cancer-fighting-daughters-exposure-to-measles , and see also http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/12-news/2015/01/28/12news-195-people-exposed-to-measles-at-hospital/22453857/

This is infuriating.

Thanks Shay, for your reply to pgp:

a) pgp is incredibly gullible for believing Colonel Tom works in public health.

b) pgp knows nothing about public health and nothing about the staff who work in the public health field…but that doesn’t stop her from making her ignorant remarks.

c) pgp has a false sense of her competence in multiple fields and blunders into discussions to drop her turds.

d) pgp needs to stop stereotyping people.

I invite you to move to Detroit, and raise a couple kids with the average Detroiter’s monthly income, availabe food choices, and transportation options. Really, I think it’d be educational.

From the hints Colonel Tom has made about his background, I imagine that he is fully acquainted with the social and economic conditions that restrict a family’s dietary choices.

I was looking to see if Ben Carson might have been a member of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, but he doesn’t seem to be, though AAPT seems to be very enthusiastic about him. The great Charlie Pierce began a column on Carson with

I begin to suspect quite seriously that Dr. Ben Carson honed his very legitimate skills as a gifted neurosurgeon by practicing on himself. I further suspect that whatever portion of the human brain is dedicated to the study of history is hanging on the wall of Ben’s office, next to the diploma.

Pierce is often extremely funny.

Thank you Herr Doktor, although even when things were really hard after my father’s death, aged 38 from his third heart attack, my mother worked very hard to provide us with decent food and everything else. I likely think that her example of putting her children ahead of almost everything I likely have too hard of an opinion for those that do not. We all have some bias in our lives.

I miss her, she’s two years on the ground now. Aortic aneurysm, she contracted MRSA during a surgical repair. They pumped her full of antibiotics and it took almost 18 months before the inevitable.

I can tell you exactly what the CBS Evening News producers were thinking: The Disneyland measles story is hot hot hot, so let’s find a dumb-ass SOB we can pin the blame on, serve him up on a platter, and dismember him with a meat cleaver in front of 7.1 million viewers, which just might help us gain some more ground on Brain Williams and Diane Sawyer.

The CBS News piece isn’t ‘balanced’ at all, false or otherwise. It’s a classic 60 Minutes style take-down of Dr. Jay Gordon. It’s an audience-pleaser in dramatic form: a good guy, a bad guy, a twist, a reveal…

1) Introduce scumbag and let him state his BS: “measles poses no risk to a healthy child.” (Dr. Jay is not a smart man. He doesn’t see what’s coming).
2) Put scumbag back on his heels with challenging ‘but’ question: “But a sick person who contacts YOUR patients will infect 90% of them. How is that not a risk?”
3) Stupid scumbag fails to realize his legs have just been cut off, and starts trying to dance out of trouble: “Measles is a benign childhood illness.”
4) …and he walks right into the knife!: “is it YOUR personal choice to bring back an eradicated disease?”
5) Writhing, twisting the blade further and further into his dub-ass self: “Measles isn’t coming back”
6) And the ambush trap springs shut, pulling Dr. Jay off the screen: Animated graphic! Before vaccines 481,530 cases, 408 dead. And lets see a pro-vax Dr. now to show just how big a bozo has been swallowed by the mighty jaws of the edit bay! We’d seen Hollywood-groomed-guy Dr. Jay in his posh private office – in dress shirt, suit jacket and periwinkle tie — and here’s Dr. Deborah Lehman at Cedars Sinai Medical Center, a woman in a frumpy outfit under a lab coat walking the halls of what appears to be real Children’s Hospital ward…
7) Dr. Lehman starts moving her mouth and words must be coming out, but no one will hear them, as we’re 3/4 of the way into the TRT of the piece, and that means it’s climax time — Four Ken Burns Effect photos of kids in anguish completely covered with red dots. Benign my ass!
8) Cut back to Dr. Lehman for a few seconds. She’s still saying something we’re not listening to, as we take a breath to recover from those pictures of measles…
9) Which we do just in time to hear correspondent Ben Tracy pour the verbal dirt into Dr. Jay’s lying-arse grave. The anti-vaxers have changed their minds, and rushing to Dr. Jay to get shots for their kids.
Boom goes the dynamite!
And the continuous thumping noise in the background since that clip aired is the sound of six figures worth of un-vaxers hopping down off the fence.

This is the news story of your dreams, gang. You may think you want scientists and doctors delivering the truth about vaccines with no time devoted to the likes of Dr. Jay, but TV doesn’t work that way. No villain, no drama, no viewers. Put just Dr. Lehman on the screen, and the folks at home change the channel. Add Paul Offit, Steve Novella, and somebody from the CDC and it’s worse: too many voices on screen, no focus. On the other hand, you might think if they’re going to go after the anti-vaxers, they ought to debunk them more broadly, get Dr. Bob and RFKJ in there too. Nope.

Here’s the classic 60 Minutes ‘expose’ formula: The star is the newsman-as-private-eye — tough, street-smart, relentless Mike Wallace. He’s the viewer’s surrogate, out to skewer the pompous fools that plague us in everyday life. The piece is a classically structured narrative arc portraying the lone detective’s investigation of a single low-life. Plot is character, and character is plot. In order to develop character in a short segment, there’s only room for two principals, though a side-kick of the week may step in to help lower the boom.

The bad guy falls to his own hubris. He thinks he can handle Mike Wallace. The crew is coming to his office. He’s at home, not downtown in the police interrogation box. He doesn’t understand that Mike has brought his ‘box’ with him. He can’t tell what the camera’s doing, but it’s framing him in a tight close-up. Mike’s more amiable in person than on TV. They talk for awhile – the interview might last a half-hour or more in real time. Slowly the questions become a bit tougher, and the bad guy starts to squirm. He’s trying to catch back-up to that feeling of poise and comfort he’d had just moments before, and then… the (in)famous 60 Minutes “Gotcha” drops on his head.

The bad guy might even recover fairly well in reality, but his goose is already pre-cooked. Back at the shop, the producers/directors/editors chop up the rushes, pull out all the juicy stuff, and put it into proper story order, where the magic of TV lets ‘Mike’ pull out the ambush edit at exactly the right point(s) in the story arc — and here’s the picture sequence SHOWING (not telling) that everything the guy has just said is a self-serving lie.

Good stories usually have interesting bad guys. Khan, The Joker, HAL. By themselves Kirk, Batman, and Dave Bowman are just tiresome boors. There’s a high likelihood that Dr. Jay was cast in that the LA staffers know both Gordon and Sears, concluded that Dr. Bob would come off more likable on-screen and have a better line, while Dr. Jay would look like a weasel, and be far more prone to put his foot into his mouth. Per the script, which was already written in the sense the pro-vax info was already lined up, the humble science WOMAN (these producers do not miss a trick) already cast, the story outline already sketched.

Without Dr. Jay, you got nothing, TV-wise.

Now here’s what Dr. Jay getting the 60 Minutes treatment should tell you (or re-affirm): the anti-vaxers are now losers. Not after Dr. Jay getting sliced and diced by Ben Tracy’s video Vegomatic. Before. It was only on very rare occasions – e.g. the tobacco story fictionalized in The Insider – that Mike Wallace went after anyone with real power and influence. The targets were usually middling con-artists with puffed up egos: 3rd tier televangelists, regional snake oil salesmen, shady attorneys… yeah, Dr. Jay fits right in!

Dr. Jay – how does it feel to be in the epicenter of the worst outbreak of Measles in the US in the past decade?

Lawrence, I’m not in Ohio.

I’m about five miles from the nearest reported case in California and 36 miles from Disneyland.

Here’s Vince’s piece about geography:

http://pediatrics.about.com/od/measles/a/measles-outbreaks.htm

Jay

Delphine–

I think that I’ve given more MMR vaccines since the Disneyland outbreak started than anyone you know.

Yes, you think they should have been given at 12 months. But, they have been given.

These are people who had never planned on giving the MMR before they joined my practice, learned to trust my conservative approach to vaccination and then accepted my advice that this was the right time to give the shot.

Dorit–

I agree with you. I would change a couple words in your statement, and make it more favorable to me, but, basically, you’re correct.

I was going to put in the caveat that you aren’t in Ohio – but then again, that was an isolated & relatively immobile population….so the opportunity for viral spread was limited.

Of course, you are talking about potentially thousands of people exposed, across multiple states now….of course, that isn’t a big deal to you, is it?

Just when I think you might not be such a bad guy, you up and get in the media & just make a complete ass of yourself.

Good for you for finally vaccinating people – but don’t break your arm patting yourself on the back there chum.

Kochanski–

Among a specific group of people, delaying the MMR allows them to feel more certain about the vaccine and get it when they might otherwise have not. The risk to that delay is very small compared to the risk that coercion might lead them to never get the shot.

I believe that a serious proportion of people with measles this year are over age twenty years. A majority perhaps?

Dr Jay,

Any guilt over the reported exposure of newborns in a California maternity ward?

Lawrence, your previous conclusion was right: I’m not such a bad guy at all. I’m an ally and a “bridge.” The majority of people in this room are too myopic to see that.

Dr. Jay, you look at him and tell me he doesn’t have the right to go to school and worry about catching measles because of “personal belief exemptions.” Look at him.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2015/01/27/381888697/to-protect-his-son-a-father-asks-school-to-bar-unvaccinated-children

So, Dr. Jay is there to cater to the whims of those who might not be 100% anti-vaccine, but prefer to get their vaccines on whatever “mythical” schedule suits their particular needs.

I can certainly see the economic benefits to the Doctor – since he can spread vaccines over multiple upon multiple visits, each resulting in the standard fees to be paid (rather than one fee to receive multiple vaccines on time and such).

Probably the only other nice thing I can say about Dr. Jay, is at least he isn’t (100%) Dr. Bob.

Quite the opposite, as they have been legally declared “unavoidably unsafe”

It’s truly amazing that, despite having been told over and over, these dimwits can’t get it through their heads that Bruesewitz said exactly the opposite.

“Among a specific group of people, delaying the MMR allows them to feel more certain about the vaccine and get it when they might otherwise have not. The risk to that delay is very small compared to the risk that coercion might lead them to never get the shot.”

Why are there only two options, delay or coercion? What about a level discussion of the risks and benefits?

I am not a scientist, but my immediate family is full of them — doctors, nurses, a physicist, an engineer, an epidemiologist. I trust their advice on issues where I feel challenged. I had many questions as to why my daughter’s ped didn’t prescribe abx for her last ear infection and I went in to the appointment expecting a scrip. We talked about it at length and I understood his point and in the end, he was right, it went away on its own this time. Why can’t you try to have the same relationship with the parents of your patients? Wouldn’t that be the right thing to do?

It’s not just delay or coerce. Can’t you see that?

@Dr Jay, #71
As for Dr Chris (not FAAP), I am reminded of the Woody Allen/Groucho Marks (paraphrased) line, “I wouldn’t want to belong to any club that would have me as a member.” Your FAAP membership might seriously degrade the value of such a membership to Dr Chis.

Sadmar–

Gordon has “celebrity” status. For vaccinations, too many people are, unfortunately valuing the advice of celebrities over the advice from real experts. Jay Gordon (incredibly) believes he is an expert in infectious diseases and immunology, which he most certainly is not. His narcissistic personality has– to the detriment of the health of his patients and public health in the US–led him to mug his faux vaccine expertise for any/every camera/reporter/blog he can find during his busy day seeing cash-only families. Gordon and Sears have made it very difficult for pediatricians like me–who actually understand the science behind vaccines as well as their clinical importance–to convince parents to vaccinate because when someone like a Sears or a Gordon says anything, it is taken as truth–thankfully not be everyone, but unfortunately by a high enough percentage to ruin herd immunity to measles in areas like California. Compounding this situation is the lack of any large group (AAP, AAFP, AMA, CDC, CA Medical Board) opposition to the insanely dangerous things spewing from the orifices of Gordon and Sears. Such opposition from these groups could have nipped this anti-vaccine nonsense in the bud.

That is my nutshell description of this giant cluster.

After being quoted as saying in a CBS interview that he doesn’t think the current measles outbreak “poses any risk to a healthy child.”, I would’ve thought Jay Gordon would be too embarrassed to show up here.

Jay has no shame, even after about one-fourth of the California victims wound up in the hospital.

@Narad – don’t cars fall under the exact same category (legally) as vaccines?

If you change that to “non-category,” then yes.

after about one-fourth of the California victims wound up in the hospital

If measles posed any risk to them, they were by definition not healthy children, so Dr Gordon remains correct!

Found the guy online

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/12-news/2015/01/23/12news-doctor-dont-vaccinate/22200535/

Why isn’t he insisting we give everyone the smallpox, every who used to get it musta been just fine too right?

He has to be a joke.

http://healthimpactnews.com/2015/arizona-cardiologist-responds-to-critics-regarding-measles-and-vaccines/

@Denice Walter and @JP

I had never heard that about bleu cheese, although I love both the smell and occasional small taste of the stuff. I know I could take lactaid pills. I agree that I don’t see the difference in a natural mold in cheese and natural buggies in other stuff.

There was a nice big new study, that I’ve glanced at the abstract, that indicates that three glasses of milk a day shows negative health outcomes, which does not shock me. No opinion on the validity of said study, but I remember it was done by a competent bunch.

The hypotheses of their being hormones in milk, I don’t remember that from histology , they might be apocrine glands but I really don’t remember that at all. I might have slept through that lecture.

I can see the tee-shirts now.

“Someone went to Disneyland,
and all I got was this lousy cane and seeing eye dog”

rich, luscious blue cheese […] I include it along with gin and chicken,
I am intrigued by this combination and wish to subscribe to your cookbook.

Re: desserts with cheese:

An apple pie without cheese is like a kiss without the squeeze.

I wonder if there is any significance of Jack Wolfson having a DO rather than a ‘normal’ medical degree?

“Although I use pharmaceuticals for emergency situations, getting my patients off of medications is what I do best.”

This statement would seem to be at complete odds with normal medical practice, which would be to identify the problem and recommend the appropriate intervention, whether pharmaceutical or not.

@ChrisP: here in the US, DOs go through training very similar to MDs, with the variance being they also learn some manipulative therapies (similar to chiro quacks). Their residencies are usually the same as MDs, depending on the specialty. So I wouldn’t say it’s because he’s a DO that Dr Wolfson is irresponsible. I would say it’s just because he’s lost any sense of decency he ever had.

@ herr doktor bimler:

I’m not much of a cook but I’m sure that one of the minions who is more adept in the kitchen can dream up something with those ingredients that isn’t disgusting.

I know that DOs do similar training, but was under the impression that it was an alternative pathway used by those who don’t have the grades to enter the regular pathway.

I was also wondering whether DOs might be more susceptible due to the woo they get with the back-cracking curriculum.

Perhaps I am just noticing there being lots of DO woos, due to the Sherri Tenpenny effect.

@MI Dawn:
@MI Dawn:

My god, what an idiot Wolfsohn is. I’m impressed by the slobberfest in the comments area. Obviously, your excellent comment hasn’t appeared. Nor has mine, not so excellent but short and snarky. Such a courageous fellow that he can’t handle a little disagreement. I’m glad he’s getting some heat. May it continue.

Luckily for SoCal, not all the pediatricians are as grubby as Gordon and Sears.

I just caught the tail end of a segent on KNX, the LA news station. It sounded like a local segment, rather than a network one (although since KNX is a CBS O&O, it’s available for the rest of the network).

What I heard was part of an interview with a doc, who sounded like a pediatrician, saying that she *will not* accept new patients of the non-vax variety. Good on her, and on KNX for reporting it.

There is a kernel of truth in the fact that a good doctor knows how to address patient concerns in such a manner that parents do not feel so alienated that they seek care elsewhere. During my own daughter’s mysterious illness (unexplained weightloss of 15 lbs, listlessness, nausea), it was greatly comforting the level of concern expressed by one of the rotating doctors at her PCP. I still disagree with her refusal to test for parasites but hey, I have my own microscope.

That said, patients should be steered away from silliness gently but firmly.

Driving home here in the city of the angels, I clicked on one of the local FM NPR stations, and they were doing the story about the father who wants his son’s Marin County school to ban the unvaccinated. It was a repeat of the same recording that was played earlier.

So I clicked over to the AM news station KNX (mentioned above) and they were doing the measles story.

“All measles, all the time.” This has been a media exercise in turning over a rock, and the conventional wisdom has moved to being pro-vaccination and anti-anti-vax.

Vincent Iannelli, MD, FAAP
January 29, 2015
Hey Jay, can you get me Ione Skye’s autograph? She was great in ‘Say Anything.’ Saw that article in the Hollywood Reporter about you two…

Vince, that comment is beneath you.

Dangerous Bacon, good to see you. Wondered where you were and hoped you were doing OK.

The median age of measles patients during this current outbreak is over 20 years.

Colonel, yes, bigger tents are better for patient care.

Good night, all. Be well.

Jay

The median age of measles patients during this current outbreak is over 20 years.

This should be good.

Narad, according to Dr. Gordon, who appeared on the Scott Pelley Evening News Wednesday evening, he’s provided hundreds of PBEs to his patients’ parents. (That’s another thing I wouldn’t be bragging about).

Dr. Gordon claims to present complete information about vaccines and the diseases they present and also claims “the parents make the decision”.

A ringing endorsement from Michael Belkin…wow, just wow. What more could the pediatrician to the stars hope for…unless it’s a comment from AoA critter Nancy Hokanen.

Now here’s a pediatrician who practices good medicine and provides excellent well-researched advice to parents. I especially like Dr. Roy Benaroch’s explanation about the (non existent) passive immunity passed to infants who are breast fed by mommies who think breast feeding is a substitute for childhood vaccines:

https://pediatricinsider.wordpress.com/2015/01/27/immunity-breastfeeding-and-the-timing-of-measles-vaccine/

Dr Jay is a shocker! If he isn’t marketing supplements yet, it’s only time before he starts. I’m so glad he wasn’t here in NZ when my nephew had leukaemia. People like this ‘good’ doctor must feel OK with blood on their lily-white hands. I certainly wouldn’t!

Dr. Jay and Dr. Bob’s ears must have been burning this morning.

On “Morning Joe”, Howard Dean commented that antivax advocacy is “nutjob medicine”.

Narad @137:

One might idly wonder how these figures compare with the number of PBEs signed off on.

Probably irrelevant as PBEs did not require anything other than the parents’ signature until January 2014, and even then only for incoming kindergartners and 7th graders (unless the student changed schools in the 2013-2014 academic year).

Dr. Jay also opined on Twitter that we haven’t had any measles deaths in 10-11 years. He put the cutoff so that the two deaths in 2003 could be excluded. Also, Dr. Jay, the reason we haven’t had many deaths is because we haven’t had a sufficient number of cases for that risk to loom large…until now. And the reason we haven’t had enough cases? Vaccination!

So, Jay, when the next person dies of measles, which probably is sadly not too far off, what will you tell their family? That measles is not a risk? That their child just must not have been healthy? Will you take responsibility for your part in promoting the breakdown of herd immunity?

@ Dr. Jay,

Respectful Insolence aside, thanks for sharing your thoughts on the MMR vaccine.

With Respect to the MMR vaccine, the “Chart of Contraindications and Precautions to Commonly Used Vaccines” from the CDC states,

“Severe allergic reaction (e.g., anaphylaxis) after a previous dose or to a vaccine component”

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/vac-admin/contraindications-vacc.htm

Now that the incidence and prevalence of childhood allergies are a major concern, what precautions are you taking to assure that each child getting the MMR vaccine is better protected?

Furthermore, is the CDC and are pediatricians concerned about the development of severe allergic reactions (i.e., atopy) other than anaphylaxis?

“Vince, that comment is beneath you.”

What my patients and parents say and believe do not typically influence what happens to yours. On the other hand, your celebrity parents greatly influence parents across the country.

Bob has the same kind of reach and influence with his book.

That has been what I have been trying to get across to you for some time now.

This doesn’t just turn some no-vax parents into a parent who says ‘ok, I’ll get one or two shots.’ It very likely turns many parents who you will never meet, who were just vaccine hesitant, into no-vax parents. And it has likely made others who would have been fine following the recommended schedule into a parent who is hesitant to have their child vaccinated.

Ms. Skye is a second-generation patient in your practice. I would be very disappointed if any of my second-generation parents had instincts that told them anything other than that protecting their kids from vaccine preventable diseases was best.

“This measles outbreak does not pose a great risk to a healthy child,” said Dr. Gordon. “And quite frankly I don’t think it poses any risk to a healthy child.”

That statement is beneath any pediatrician. Are the newborns that were exposed in the Fresno L&D ward healthy? Was the 10 month old that was exposed in Arizona with his 3-year-old sister getting chemo for leukemia healthy? Are they not at any risk? Or is it just a gamble that they won’t have a serious side effect or even have a life-threatening case if they get measles?

If you go to the link for the Ben Tracy piece (just abve the embeded video in the OP) you’ll find two more pro-vax videos in the sidebar, including one with a thumbnail image displaying ‘Death Rate 1 in 1000. Complication Rate 1 in 3″.

There’s also a page layout version of an ambush edit, as Jay’s “Measles is almost an always a benign childhood illness,” is followed immediately by a CDC graphic showing measles is 6 times more infectious than ebola and 3 times more infectious than polio.

The page has a snarky headline, “Doctor explains why he lets kids avoid the measles vaccine” and the still image inset photo of Jay has to be the most smug-looking frame they could find in the story.”

Down in the Comments, there’s a good post from ‘Dr Ts View ‘ on the lack of profit in vaccines, and for comedy gold there’s a post from some fellow in Arizona named chrisphickie who is apparently “obviously a paid shill for the big drug companies” because he doesn’t like Dr. Jay. 😉 😉

@Lurker #32: $170 a pop? You hilarious, dude!
Try $450/visit PLUS a $250/year “adminstrative fee”.

@ Mu #18: CNN isn’t taking a stand. They’re piling on. Which is good. Taking a stand would have been getting the foolishness of anti-vax on the front page before and outbreak. The story you linked has an effective peg, but the video is horribly weak. Just happy a baby pictures. The text and head on this CNN story aren’t as punchy, but the video is MUCH better: http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/29/health/california-measles-outbreak/index.html
Still not in the same league as the CBS piece…

TYPO:

I sounds like you’re hoping for another death soon even though I know that’s not what you really mean.

I guess I’m just not seeing how a rate of serious complications from measles infection actually being 1 to 1-3 thousands instead of the perceived ‘hundreds of thousands’ gets readily dismissed. Unless evidence-based medicine shouldn’t be followed. Gastalt seems all well and good running a ddx in primary care, but readily dismissing a known outcome from a disease process just doesn’t make sense to me, even more so when that serious outcome is preventable.

“sadmar: I’m not sure what your point is. Vaccines are very profitable. Pediatricians probably don’t give them for that reason but they maker (sic) money when they do.”

Really Dr. Gordon? You and your buddy Dr. Bob Sears are in the minority with your b.s. alternative schedules and your pandering to vaccine-phobic parents.

Tell us what profit you make when you do administer a vaccine. Be specific and include your cost per vaccine, office overhead, storage/wastage and the reimbursement rate from your patients’ parents’ health insurance companies.

So you reinvent the wheel from scratch each time with each parent and independently every time? Or just leave it up to parents to research when they are going to come in and demand you do something?

No telling patients an age range or expressing disapproval if they want it earlier than you think it should be given?

I mean you seem to have some ideas of no this before that age. If the parent dares to demand a shot at a given time do you have any recommendations for when a booster might be given, or just whenever the whim for that shows up in the parent.

@ Dorit #75
If the story was ‘false balance’ then, yes, by nominating Jay as an ‘experienced pediatrician’, worthy of being quoted in the news, he would granted some credibility. What had been described here as “false balance”* certainly exists in journalism, but it has the form of “objectivity”. That is, the sources and only the source contradict one another. The form is [(A says X) but (B says Y)]. Critical Theorists of news have been on this case for half-a-century, and the consensus analysis is that the ideological problem is exactly that legitimation is granted simply by appearance in the news when the positions presented and the authority of the presenters are not interrogated.

That is “objectivity” calls for reporters to step back and pretend they’re not there. But the audience understands intuitively that they are there. So when the reporter takes no position on the credibility of a source, that’s a de facto endorsement. (In both print and broadcast, there are conventions reporters can employ to send subtle little “DO NOT TRUST” messages, so it’s not quite that simple, but for this instance it will do.)

So what defines the form of an ‘investigative report’ is its difference from the vast majority of news items: the journalists are out in the open and issuing THIER OWN challenges to the source. For viewers with minimal cultural literacy in news/public affairs the form alone is a sign of de-legitimation, and they don’t even need to understand the content to know the interview target is being presented as illegitimate.

The 60 Minutes style expose was developed by broadcast legend Don Hewitt in the mid-60s, and has been a staple of all TV “journalism” for over 45 years, so viewers are well trained in the routine. No one in the news biz or in journalism scholarship has the slightest doubt it “works”. There a many serious questions about what kind of work it does, but those aren’t germane here. Among the surplus of evidence you could find for how well this works is that among a viewing public that could care less about news in general, 60 Minutes became the top-rated (and most profitable) show on television on the basis of the melodrama value of its exposes.

The point about the necessity of a villain in #70 is, frankly, undebatable after two miilenia of dramaturgy, but I gave poor examples of bad guys relevant to a 60 Minutes expose. Better would be the villain of the week on Columbo.

Communication scholars and practitioners are well aware of the phenomenon of “selective perception.” But, trust me – as I speak not for me but for the consensus of a field on a subject that has been researched to death – NO ONE who is not already an anti-vax partisan, and/or did not already know Jay Gordon and consider him a legitimate source came away from Ben Tracy’s piece with the impression Jay’s position is valid, or, more importantly, that HE is a valid source on anything.

Now, the audience may well miss the substance of the take-downs. That is, if you tested viewers on what exactly is wrong with Dr. Jay’s position in terms of specifics, they might not do so well. What they will have stored is that measles really sucks, it’s coming back, and this schmuck is to blame. That is, they don’t miss that it’s a takedown.

For example, one way a media researcher might evaluate a story like this is to do pre-and-post testing on “Is measles a benign childhood disease?”

“The lack of real, evidentiary basis for [Dr. Jay’s] claims” isn’t the issue – though it is on display passively. The evidentiary basis presented FOR vaccination is hardly thorough science. It’s 2:25 of TV time, not a research paper. What it goes at is Dr. Jay’s argument, not his evidence. Look at the story structure again.

J: measles poses no risk
B: How is 90% infection rate not a risk?
J: Measles is benign
B: Why bring back any eradicated disease?
J: Measles isn’t coming back
AMBUSH EDIT: Measles IS coming back, and do these pictures look benign to you? Heck, no.

That’s the take-away. It’s TV. It’s about pictures. I this case it’s about (excuse the bad pun) connecting the spots. The next time the viewers visualize that horrible rash they see Jay Gordon’s smug face in their mind and hear echoes of his flailing backtracking — even though they don’t remember the words, they remember the weaseling tone. The next time the viewers read about some ‘vax-hesitant’ MD who signs lots of exemption forms, they will see and hear the smug, weaselly Dr. Jay in their mind, and that will bring up those pictures of the poor kids suffering.

You don’t anything deeper than that from TV. If you don’t get that what I’ve described is how the story actually works, and that any news scholar reading Orac’s critique of CBS is either laughing out loud and/or face-palming at the silliness, there’s really nothing I can do but add to the face-palm chorus. If you don’t get that in 2:25 this story did more to push vax rates back up than the entire cumulative history of Respectful Insolence [which is not a knock on RI at all; Orac have BB-gun, CBS have Missouri-class battleship], I’m first of all sorry that you can’t feel the comfort this story ought to give you, and second concerned that valuable lessons for the future may be missed. But those topics will have to be the subjects of a separate comment.

There’s seems to be some disagreement about whether these media appearances have

a) Created “false balance” and given my point of view credibility

or

b) Made me look like a friggin’ irresponsible idiot and increased the likelihood that everyone will get MMRs immediately.

The truth is in between. I don’t like taped shows. CBS and NBC filmed for 45 minutes trying as hard as they could to get a gotcha’ moment. Both reporters asked the same question a half dozen times or more in different ways and finally found a sound bite that framed what I said in the worst possible light.

You’re all smart enough here to know what I really do while at the same time finding variations on calling me “a scum-sucking pig who kills children.”

Again, for whatever reason, I have gotten more kids vaccinated the past two weeks than all the rest of you put together. I’m proud of that. Sadmar . . . you’re an interesting person. Let’s sit a grab a coffee someday.

@ sadmar:

Better watch it , Mister: Dr Jay has been known to suggest sharing wine with at least one of Orac’s female minions.
( Not me, I’m too evil)

^ Scratch that, I couldn’t see the column heading (“per dose”) from down at the row.

Both reporters asked the same question a half dozen times or more in different ways and finally found a sound bite that framed what I said in the worst possible light.

Aww poor wittle “Dr.” Jay is taken out of context again. For what it’s worth, here is how you appeared, to rational people you looked every bit the arrogant, incompetent ponce we know you to be and bonus your stupidity just got a larger audience. To the mindless, selfish crowd you pander to, you just validated their foolish, false beliefs. How proud you must feel.

You’re all smart enough here to know what I really do while at the same time finding variations on calling me “a scum-sucking pig who kills children.”

You said it, I didn’t. Altho’ I wouldn’t just stop at the killing part because there are more avoidable endpoints of measles infections that you are helping to perpetuate.

Again, for whatever reason, I have gotten more kids vaccinated the past two weeks than all the rest of you put together. I’m proud of that. Sadmar . . . you’re an interesting person. Let’s sit a grab a coffee someday.

You vaccinated children who should have been vaccinated years ago and you want a freakin cookie for that. I can’t even begin to imagine what else you are “proud” of.

Only slightly OT- had a thought on the way to work this morning- Can we stop calling PBEs “personal belief exemptions” or worse, “philosophical exemptions.” Let’s just call them what they actually are: “I don’t wanna” exemptions. It’s much more accurate.

Made me look like a friggin’ irresponsible idiot

I’ll go with “friggin’ irresponsible idiot” for 500, Alex.

What the., vaccines are almost always covered no cost on insurance coverage. Why is anyone paying such an outrageous fee?

Saith Dr. Jay Gordon:

Again, for whatever reason, I have gotten more kids vaccinated the past two weeks than all the rest of you put together.

Leaving aside the extraordinary arrogance in presuming that none of the regular commenters here are themselves pediatricians who may have had an upswing in parents requesting MMR following the Disneyland outbreak, there are two glaring holes in Dr Gordon’s argument here.

(1) As already ably pointed out by Science Mom, Dr Gordon is, at best, playing catch-up after enabling his patients’ parents’ neglectful behaviour for years (decades?). That he’s administered loads of measles vaccines lately is, in that context, hardly worth “you get a gold star, Dr Gordon”.

(2) Leaving aside regular cranks, the regulars here steadfastly support routine pediatric vaccination according to the schedules of their own countries, which puts them well ahead of Dr Gordon in the “gets a gold star” race when it comes to vaccines, even if he happened to have administered more vaccines over the last two weeks than the average non-pediatrician commenter here. (Although lilady’s #175 makes Dr Gordon’s total sound rather unimpressive.)

For the TL,DR, crowd: No, Dr Gordon, don’t expect a gold star here at RI for your surge in vaccine administration.

Those are government subsidized single doses and yes, that includes the cost of administering the shots. This is what people pay in the real world:
[http://www.kevinmd].com/blog/2011/04/adult-cost-vaccines.html

It’s good that there’s not an additional administration fee stacked on top, but no, I was citing the private sector column. I don’t know why you’re bothering to cite the 2011 adult MMR markup at CVS and Walgreens other than to demonstrate that you are grossly detached from the notion of “people in the real world.”

Of course, if administering vaccines weren’t such a novelty, you likely could have found a buying group. Or told your patients – who seem likely to actually have insurance – that they could pretty much go anywhere else and have the vaccine covered.

@Liz:

One might idly wonder how these figures compare with the number of PBEs signed off on.

Probably irrelevant as PBEs did not require anything other than the parents’ signature until January 2014, and even then only for incoming kindergartners and 7th graders (unless the student changed schools in the 2013-2014 academic year).

If one reviews the CBS story, it notes that “Dr. Gordon has signed hundreds of ‘personal belief exemptions’ ….”

Now bring breastfeeding to the Third World, please.

Wow, Jay. Do you realize how much of an ass that makes you sound?

Those are government subsidized single doses

Jay, the government subsidized price is about $20/dose of MMR, not $50. Private sector cost (as listed) is about $50. So you’re charging your patients twice as much as what you pay for the vaccines?

Dr. Jay, as you undoubtedly know, implementing exclusive breastfeeding in less developed countries is a lengthy, complex process. More difficult than immunization for a variety of reasons.

Have you seen this guy and his chiro wife, Dr. Jay? Any thoughts? How do you feel about their trashing of a mother of a dead 5 year old? https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2015/01/30/antivaccine-cardiologist-jack-wolfson-and-the-resurrection-of-false-balance-about-vaccines/

Dr. Jay, I have a question for you from the perspective of a potential parent.

Based on “doing my homework” ahead of time, I’m leaning toward the idea of trying to find a doctor who will be willing to give my currently-hypothetical child (my husband and I plan to de-hypotheticalize said child within the next couple years) an extra MMR at 6 months because, though I understand the protection is temporary at that age, I feel that it’s better than nothing, in the event of an outbreak between 6 and 12 months, and I feel that the probability of an outbreak is too high to just try to wait those months out.

Let’s assume that I won’t change my mind between now and then. If my child were one of your patients, would you trust my judgment and research, to the point of facilitating my wishes by providing the shots, if I told that I wanted my child on a personalized custom schedule consisting of the CDC recommendations plus a 6 month MMR?

And I just found…
courtesy of hiv innocence group truth, today

Celia Farber declares:
“There is no death from measles. Not Usually. Not ever”.
( Celia Ingrid Farber facebook)

@ ChrisP:

You are correct.
Even worse, when you survey alt med – including anti-vax, hiv/aids denialism, dietary woo, etc, you find that there is an intricate mesh of multiple interconnections betwixt and between most of the major players.
I sometimes wish I could create a graphic to illustrate what my semantic memory tells me ( actually, I could but I’m lazy)

This is a table of deaths in Canada from viral meningitis and measles meningitis from 2000 to 2011: http://i.imgur.com/vb5uXOV.jpg

There were a total of just over 1,300 cases of meningitis in that time frame. That’s a lot of deaths for 1,300 cases, more than the 1 in 1,000 we hear about. But, no, measles is not deadly. (Yes, I included viral meningitis not specified, making this more sensitive and less specific, but just look at SSPE deaths!)

Anyway, I’ve re-written Prof. Elemental’s “Fighting Trousers” for Dr. Jay. I hope you all enjoy it more than Jake Crosby, who actually thought I was challenging him to a fight on a rotating platform.

***

Dear Jay,
Regarding your recent foray
Into the Epi business and the scene you portray,
See I don’t normally approve of war games,
But “He’s lying you” is what they all say

And by Harry, they might be right–
This is science, not an Elvis night!
Shelve this doctor impersonation,
Let it end now, it’s impertinent waiting!

You seem a reasonable chap,
What you’re telling us is crap
All words spewed from a crackpot
‘Cause that’s not proper, just not cricket!
Put away your vaccine schedule or I’ll tell you where to stick it!

I’ve got super professors and fans that read me
You’ve got a granddad’s demeanor, you big old weenie
Don’t look around doc, I’m speaking to you
Roll up your shirt sleeves, Queensbury rules
Never test the skeptics with the cleverest wits
Let’s settle this like gentlemen: armed with heavy sticks
On a rotating plate, with spikes like Flash Gordon
And you’re Peter Duncan; I gave you fair warning
When this Bob Sears clone is performing
Scientists go home before he begins talking
A new career might be more rewarding
I’m a bright Brighton peer, you’re medicine’s Piers Morgan

I’m not seeing you at ERs or clinics with kids with mening
Dear doc, you’re not worthy of this!
Sold out like Joe Mercola
Used for a meme
And that means you’re banned
From vaccinating
Hope it’s safe to assume you won’t do it again
Set foot on our stage and get ruined again
Be out, Dr. Jay, I’ve set the egg timer
You’re better off in your home, drinking on your recliner
Stop being so dense, trying to make amends
Yours, et cetera, et cetera, sincerely, and so forth,
Epi Ren

Sorry if this has already been posted, but it does talk about our friend Jay Gordon in it.

“Anti-Vaccine Doctors Should Lose Their Licenses”

http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterlipson/2015/01/30/anti-vaccine-doctors-should-lose-their-licenses/

From Gordon:

Delphine–That’s wonderful. Now bring breastfeeding to the Third World, please.

What. The. F*?
I forgot Gordon is a passive-aggressive troll, and proud of it.

I was about to reply something scathing, but Ren #196 is much more talented at expressing a similar opinion.

Dr. Gordon,

I hate to appear needy, but I was hoping you might take the opportunity to expand on your views by considering the questions I raised in message 145 above.

I do realize you’d rather converse with the ever delightful and lovely Denice Walter, but if you have a moment your answers would be (I hope) very interesting.

Thanks for your consideration.

@ Patrick:

I would look at books by Paul Offit and Ben Goldacre for a start.

Patrick @201 Book recommendations
Seth Mnoonkin The Panic Virus
Paul Offit Autism’s False Prophets
Arthur Allen Vaccine
David Oshinsky Polio An American Story
John M Barry The Great Influenza

Dr. Jay — thanks for answering. Also, in the interest of giving credit where it’s due, for applying your principle that the parents’ preferences come first to parental decisions which you might be expected to disagree with.

However, since it then seems like you feel that the role of a pediatrician is to go along with the parents, should I be able to buy vaccines on the internet, if I know what I want and am convinced I can do it right? For that matter, why would this only apply to vaccines — should I be able to buy any medicine I want for my child, or even for myself, up to the limit of thinking that I know what I’m doing? If not, where’s the line and why?

@ patrick – Immunity by Eula Bliss

@Denice #168
I don’t drink wine, or coffee. And I doubt Dr. Gordon would find a conversation with me a lot of fun. It’s not on my ‘to do’ list, anyway, so he’s safe there.

@MarkN #205
I think that puts it in a nutshell. The question is ‘how do we change that?’ Anybody think the exemption could be challenged in court, for example, such that exemptions would be limited to legit medical reasons?

Good morning American Loon –

Given the entirety of vaccine science (which you seem to be woefully ignorant of, based on your failed hypothesis), the first statement is accurate.

Vaccines are safe, effective, and researchers / doctors / scientists are all well-aware of situations where they aren’t appropriate or contra-indicated.

Unfortunately, you are not.

@ Michael #213
Both the White House statement and the Reuters article display genuine “false balance”. This is not a matter of who is quoted, but the language used. The vaccine science is definitive. The public health concern is absolute.

“Obama believes decisions over vaccinating children should rest with parents.” This validation of the ‘personal choice’ argument is simply disgusting, and a failure of leadership in the face of a clear public health crisis.

“Scientists defend the safety of vaccines,” implies there’s a valid thing to be defended against. “Urged parents to heed the advice of public health officials and scientists ” casts science as just the advice of persons X Y Z, not a body of validated knowledge.

“People should evaluate this for themselves with a bias toward good science and toward the advice of our public health professionals,” Asked whether people should be getting vaccinated, Earnest said: “That’s what the science indicates.”…The measles outbreak has renewed a debate over the so-called anti-vaccination movement… Some parents also opt not to have their children vaccinated for religious or other reasons. Scientists defend the safety of vaccines. Earnest said Obama believes decisions over vaccinating children should rest with parents. But he added that “the president believes that everybody should be listening to our public health professionals.”

See, all that waffling, all those conditionals, all those deflections to third parties, are balance. And Orac is right about one thing: there should be no balance on this issue.

How about:
Parents have a social responsibility to respect the science and take the actions called for by our public health professionals,” Asked whether people should be getting vaccinated, Earnest said: “Yes. It’s their civic duty to prevent the spread of this serious and highly contagious disease”…The measles outbreak has renewed concerns over the the influence of anti-vaccine conspiracy theorists misleading parents with false claims and bogus “scientific studies.” While some parents have been allowed to opt out vaccination for legitimate religious objections, “personal belief exemptions” have been far too easy to obtain, and been given virtually no scrutiny for their validity. Earnest said Obama believes vaccination is not a matter of “personal choice” or “parental rights”. He added, “The pubic health issue is clear. No one has the personal right to endanger other people by by bringing an eradicated disease roaring back.”

That would not be “balanced”. It would, however, be true.

Sadmar (#216),

“The pubic health issue is clear. No one has the personal right to endanger other people by by bringing an eradicated disease roaring back.”

MJD says,

Pharmaceutical companies currently endanger some people by using natural rubber latex, in vaccine packaging, causing potentially harmful allergies .

Furthermore, some companies have been allowed to profit from the sales of allergy-inducing vaccines and allergy medications – further escalating profits through public health issues.

@ Sadmar,

Your absolutely right, the public health concern is absolute.

It is my opinion that a pharmaceutical company should not be allowed to profit from both herd-immunity and allergy relief (e.g.,self perpetuating business).
.

Lawrence says (#219),

…have you ever actually provide any “proof” of your theories?

MjD says,

I once had a theory that the Scienceblog Respectful-Insolence was like a deck of playing cards. Once the Joker’s (e.g., Prometheus and Science Mom) are discarded, a truthful and respectable game begins.

I think I’ve proved that theory…

Lawrence says (#221),

I’ll take that as a big fat no….

MjD says,

As of 2014, here’s a partial list of pharmaceutical companies that are self-sustaining i.e., they provide pediatric vaccines with natural rubber latex warnings and allergy medications.

Pfizer – Prevnar13 and Benadryl

GlaxoSmithKline – Havrix and Piriton/Piriteze

Merck – Recombivax HB and Singulair

Novartis – Fluvirin and Triaminic

Again, a pharmaceutical company should not be allowed to profit from both herd-immunity and allergy relief (e.g.,self perpetuating business).

That’s one of the most idiotic things I’ve ever heard – so, you are surprised to find the Pharma companies are in the majority for filing patents for potential pharmaceutical treatments for autism symptoms?

Seriously?

I knew you were delusional, but this just proves, once again, that you don’t live in the same reality as the rest of the world.

What color is the sky on your planet, because it isn’t blue…..

Colonel Tom – I have a reply to MjD in moderation, but it basically said the exact same thing.

I would recommend you Google his name & American Loon – you’ll find his entry to be very….entertaining.

He’s a complete nutjob.

@Lawrence Crazy is one thing, I am more taken at the poor logic. A paranoid person might suppose that people like MJD are government plants to discredit THE cause.

P.S. Full disclosure, I don’t believe in ASD and I certainly don’t believe in allowing school teachers being the one to do the diagnosis.

Colonel Tom: MJD has an idee fixe about latex. Like vaccines, no one here on RI denies that latex can cause health problems in those who are allergic or sensitive. What we do deny is that contact with latex causes autism. Or that vaccines cause autism. Or that vaccines that come from vials with latex seals (very few) can cause autism. We usually just ignore him. Oh…and if you are really curious – you can BUY HIS BOOK (/sarcasm – he posted for weeks with that as the refrain of every comment he made.)

@Colonel Tom

You… don’t *believe* in autism? I don’t even know what to say to that. But I can assure you that teachers are not “allowed” to make the diagnosis. From many IEP meetings I can assure you school districts will not provide services without a letter from a doctor.

As a native Minnesotan, an irredeemable homer (how I miss Byerly’s wild rice soup), I feel some remorse in being reminded by MJD that the Loon is our beloved state bird, and proudly so.

Loons are graceful in the water, awkward on land, exhibit great endurance in flight, and are at home in hardy climes. Their distinctive tremolo call is used primarily to signal distress and threat to other members of the community. Loons do not engage in conspiracy theories, conjure up fanciful threats that do not exist, or call out for no good reason.

I hereby issue my apologies to the Great Northern Loon, gavia immer, for defaming them by employing their name as a term for anti-vax loonies (‘loonie’ being derived from ‘lunatic,’ not the bird). It won’t happen again.

@Sadmir
If necessary, a Loon can serve a useful purpose. While fishy and gamey at the same time, they can be slow baked.

“We usually just ignore him.”

MjD says,

No, it’s the SuperBowl today.

Trust me, no more proof was needed that you’re utterly deranged.

Oh, Dochniak, go put a natural rubber latex stopper in it.

For the uninitiated, Dochniak is neither a doctor nor research scientist, but does have a vanity-published book to hustle. The gist of his half-baked argument is this: His young autistic son was playing with a balloon at a party prior to his autism diagnosis. The child inhaled some of the the powder on the balloon (used as a dessicant and to separate the balloons in the package) and suffered an asthma attack, and was rushed to the hospital. Shortly after, he was diagnosed with autism.

According to Dochniak, the latex in the balloon and the stoppers in vaccine vials caused an immune response/traumatic brain injury and made the child autistic. Thus, according to Dochniak, autism is caused by latex allergy.

Col. Tom:
“I never said I don’t believe in autism. I said I didn’t believe in ASD”

Are you suggesting that the range of conditions along the spectrum should not have been lumped together as they now are in the DSM-5? That instead, the older distinctions between autistic disorder, childhood disintegrative disorder, PDD-NOS, and Asperger’s syndrome should have been maintained?

Are you suggesting that ‘high functioning’ ASD is overdiagnosed, providing some sort of excuse for bad behavior on the part children who are not significantly neuroatypical? Or are you suggesting that ‘high functioning’ ASD is simply not a valid medical condition at all?
______________________

Having identified myself with the fine character qualities of my home state bird, I shall ask you not to elaborate on your reciple for slow-baked Loon. I wouldn’t want lilady to get any ideas. 🙂

Colonel, do you mean ADHD?

@Shay, I am more concerned about over diagnosis of ADHD than autism, that is true. Give my comments the appropriate level of concern based upon whom I was addressing

An autism or ADD diagnosis/label can also give people a tool for understanding their experience. I have a friend who had to fight for their autism diagnosis; the doctor seemed to think that only boys are affected by autism.

I don’t think my friend is “chained to” someone else’s expectations: they’re working on a Ph.D. in geology. But their dealings with day-to-day life are eased by understanding the source of some difficulties: for example, that stimming isn’t a problem, it’s a way of dealing with problems, and that sometimes showering requires breaking “take a shower” down into eight or ten discrete steps, and it helps to have made a list of those steps.

I agree that as a (european) child I may have been kept unaware of bad news about measles, but I also remember as a visiting kid at american elementary school, that US parents were more concerned with risk.

I do remember several occasions of kids dying from traffic accidents and other mishaps, not from measles. Maybe I was lucky. I found some statistics that mention (undefined) “complications” in about 1 of 2000 cases, not 1 in 500. Maybe those numbers result from getting measles at a higher age?

I am not an advocate of going through a disease like measles, high fever and difficulty in breathing are probably not positive additions to ones health. Unnecessary risk of death should of course be avoided.

I am only a bit surprised at the heat of the discussion. People seem to think the measles are as bad as polio or the plague with high rates of “brain damage and death” which I still find hard to believe.

But if you can choose between the cost of getting a vaccination and the risk of getting measles with or without its complications, it seems more wise to go for the vaccination, even if Dr X (or whatever quack) is advising against it.

@Colonel Tom Again, I am dumbfounded that you seem to think school districts are interested in having *more* kids with IEPs, especially considering how hard nearly every parent of a special needs kid I know has had to fight to get services for their kids. Schools are certainly not accepting the word of teachers in lieu of a proper diagnosis.

@Emma Crew, that is not my observation. Could be it has more to do with the funding formula around here. My wife is from a family of educators, she counts a dozen teachers and principles in the set of people she shares at least one eighth of her DNA. They are the source of my cynical opinion.

Thank you Calli Arcale, that was a well presented argument. I am tempted to pick at some of your technique but will mainly refrain. However, I must give you a large deduction of points because you were countering “as bad as polio or THE PLAGUE” . You failed to address the plague, and we should just assume your standard Black Death here.

Still, that was such a masterful presentation, mixing both emotion and facts. You presented facts, and then humanized them. Just excellent work.

For the uninitiated, Dochniak is neither a doctor nor research scientist, but does have a vanity-published book to hustle.

A very good review of the very bad science Dochniak is pushing was done by previous minion Prometheus, on his blog, A Photon in the Darkness. However, this is sadly only available on the Wayback Machine at –

https://web.archive.org/web/20111228055016/http://photoninthedarkness.com/

You can also find Dochniak selling his book at

Be aware, this video has Dochniak’s poetry in it, and the poetry is so bad it would drive a Vogon insane.

“assuming good access to medical care, measles and polio will kill about the same percentage of cases.”

What you are saying is that medically badly managed both diseases are as bad as each other.

Interesting smoke screen that you have there.

Assuming that pop sucket is not just a drive by commenter

I can’t believe there is still a small corner of the world that still believes that vaccination is a) science and b)effective.

The huge falls in disease rates after the introduction of vaccination programs suggest that vaccines might just be effective.

pharma shills

Pharma Shill Gambit? You lose.

I’ve spent years trying to effectively communicate

It just writes itself.

Had a cast around and LOL, you actually have blogs on flu vaccine failure denial!
The only people who believe in flu vaccines are doctors and they get paid to deliver!
Same with whooping cough and others!
This kind of pseudo medicine isn’t science, its PR

Hang on, did pop sucket actually claim that the last flu epidemic was made in a Hollywood studio? Maybe it was across the lot from where they did the effects shots for 9/11, and the model work for Apollo?

I see Col Tom and Pop socket are making my point about upper-middle class people for me. Both are snooty office workers, who assume they are a cut above everyone else (especially people who are the wrong color, weight, or class) have zero scientific training, and are soft in the brain.
Before life piled on me, I was going to point out that there are three varieties of people who work in public health: Shay and Lilady are of the sort who understood science. The other two sorts are the softheaded fluffs who rely on feeling and go into the field with bleeding hearts or for the brownie points, and then there’s Col. Tom’s coworkers, who are simply ambitious sharks who assume nothing bad can ever happen to them, and have zero sympathy or understanding available for other people.
By the way, Tom, I have ADD, and was academically gifted. I probably wouldn’t have gotten through college without access to student services. Believe me, they don’t hand out the diagnoses like candy. I assume your wife is just another shark.

flu vaccination claims just prey on the old an vulnerable, exactly the kind of people that can’t even mount a mythological immune response to the vaccine anyway.

Snake oil salesmen, you should be ashamed of yourselves.

And, what are your qualifications to post comments about vaccines and V-P-Ds, pop socket/pop sucket?

Disease promoting troll.

Good to see that the same few are ranting away.

Ah, a repeat customer.

hey, so you graduated from the university of steeplebumstead in applied manure, no wonder these threads are so full of it.

There isn’t a lot of difference between you guys and Stanislov really.

Vaccination! LOL

thing is dalek, it isn’t just me, there are millions of ordinary people who think vaccinators are complete wankers. They didn’t queue up like sheep and take the medicine.
All those skilled highly qualified assholes who bombed the fuck out of the middle east wasp nest, brought the financial world to its knees. Next time there is a call up for war lets send Gorski over the top first, along with Narad, Her Docky.

They obviously understand what qualified extinction is all about.

The reason we have vaccine non compliance is because time and time again the same old excuses are trotted out to explain why vaccines fail.

Define “fail” as you’re using it here, pop socket.

Consider this year’s flu vaccine, a good case illustration because it unfortunately is not as effective as the seasonal flu vaccines produced in previous years.

It’s a trivalenet or quadriivalent vaccine, protecting against three or four strains of influenza circulating this year:

A/California/7/2009 (H1N1)pdm09-like virus
A/Texas/50/2012 (H3N2)-like virus
/Massachusetts/2/2012-like virus
BBrisbane/60/2008-like virus (only included in some vaccines)

It’s a good match for all strains but one: due to genetic drift occurring betweeb the time the strains were chosen, the vaccines prepared and the release of the vaccines it’s not as good a match for the H3N2 strain. As a result it’s about 57% effective against all strains circulating this season.

By what rational argument does achieving 57% effectiveness–reducing the incidence of infections by more than half–constitute a failure?

it is like asking homeopaths to justify themselves! LOL.
Sorry but 43% failure is playing with numbers. So what percentage of those who didn’t get the vaccygoo didn’t get ‘infected’?

What do vaccinators train to do exactly? How is it supposed to work then, if it ever does?

Tell us what makes a highly qualified expert then

Tom, we all know that vaccine parody. You need a big imagination, I am interested in science not some schoolboy fantasy story. Considering millions don’t get vaccinated for flu. Your mousey story is just a marketing ploy.
If vaccination worked and it was a good idea we would all happily queue up. Since we are not, it’s back to the drawing board. vaccination is like politics, all bull and some people still think voting is gonna change something.

pop socket,

So what percentage of those who didn’t get the vaccygoo didn’t get ‘infected’?

If one were to compare infection rates for unvaccinated and vaccinated, and the numbers showed those who were vaccinated were less likely to catch the flu (even if by let’s say only 57% even though it’s not that simple) would you agree that the vaccine does have a protective effect after all?

gaist – if you were a balanced scientist you would also propose that if studies showed that more people got the disease that had the vaccine would you accept that the vaccine was bullshit?

but I suppose that requires you step out of the mousetrap

I can see you pants

^ A fixed pseudonym, that is.

Sorry but 43% failure is playing with numbers.

Pop socket, why are you characterizing a 57% success rate–preventing greater than half of all flu infections–as a 43% failure rate? You aren’t suffering from the misapprehension that we should expect vaccines to be 100% effective 100% of the time, are you?

If vaccination worked and it was a good idea we would all happily queue up.

And your evidence that vaccination doesn’t work, or that it is not a good idea, would be…what exactly, pop socket?

I mean, you do have some–right?

Right?

Pop Socket, I personally knew people who DIED from H1N1, so why don’t you f*ck off now.

If someone does not believe that flu vaccines are valid, I find it hard to believe that I need to speak in anything other than very simple and basic concepts. As it has been predetermined that you do not have much of a grasp upon the subject, otherwise you’d not hold the untenable position that you hold, I find it useful to talk in simple easy to grasp ideas.

Even if the vaccine were 10% effective, than that decrease in the incidents and speed of an epidemic “wave” would be worthwhile. Again, some schools would not be affected, some areas of would escape, some people would not die.

As far as me being a “pawn” of the vaccine industry, I have no financial stake, I am retired, fairly well off and a cheap bastard. I have no vices except the occasional trip to the boat to play blackjack.

Also, I am fairly offended at your over familiarity to address me as “Tom”. You don’t know me, we are not family or close friends. You do not use the familiar first name in such situations. “Colonel” would be fine, as you could check with Ms. Manners to see that is the proper title even in retirement.

‘Pop Socket, I personally knew people who DIED from H1N1, so why don’t you f*ck off now.’ Emma
Mismanagement of flu is an iatrogenic problem. Handing out antivirals is too, along with antipyretics.
There are plenty of people who have died from vaccination Emma and they believed that medicine would help them.

I am interested in science not some schoolboy fantasy story.

Funny, you don’t seem to have a clue about how to go about identifying any.

If vaccination worked and it was a good idea we would all happily queue up.

Among other things.

Pop Socket: You want proof vaccines work? When was the last time someone got smallpox?

*drops mic*

If vaccination worked and it was a good idea we would all happily queue up.

Back during the H1N1 epidemics, I was around Toronto, Canada. One of the fhe first reported victim of the flu, the one which convinced us flu is a serious matter, was a young teenager. One week healthy, next week dead.
The week after, clinic centers all over the city were offering the flu shot and I remember how we were happily queuing up to get it.

^ “accumulated mutations tend to do that”

A man should know his limitations.

gaist – if you were a balanced scientist you would also propose that if studies showed that more people got the disease that had the vaccine would you accept that the vaccine was bullshit?

I take that as a no, then. But if you’ve already made up your mind, why ask for the numbers in the first place?

And for what it’s worth – if you can provide reliable numbers (regardless of source, as long as the numbers really are reliable*) that vaccine makes one susceptible to the disease people here would listen. So… Got any?

A man should know his limitations.

Was my comment really “holier than thou”? (Seriously, all comers.)

Otherwise, it’s pretty engaging.

‘Back during the H1N1 epidemics’ Hel……

Which we know did not happen because post ‘pandemic’ assessments pointed out that numbers were being fabricated based not on clinical testing confirmation but anecdotal clinical obs. One person, who could not have been healthy, dying a week later does not maketh a fact, period

Pop socket,
Citation Needed.

The acceptable spellings are “tuchis’ and “tochis’. Though the etymology traces to Hebrew, the term in original to Yiddish, and thus no transliteration is involved.

I once had a rough idea for a comedy screenplay about an old Jackie Mason-type ex-Borscht-Belt comedian with a Native American grandmother he’d never know who starts to get visions from his Native ancestors in dream-time, has bought some land near a rez and is living as ‘an Indian’, and causes all kind’s of trouble for gambling industry big-wigs trying to expand a casino complex chartered on tribal gaming rights by refusing to sell them his property. I thought his dialog — equal parts Yiddish-hinted English, and Native-American-hinted English, could be a lot of fun. Never did anything with it tough…

The Polio plus campaign in India is a classic example of this except they chose to alter the polio diagnostic criteria so you have to call it ‘infantile [sic] flaccid paralysis’.

That’s rather telling, Poop Socket.

As you plainly aren’t very bright but are UKsian (“uncle tom cobbly” should suffice on both counts), one might wonder whether you are so far behind the curve as to actually be channeling John Stone.

pop socket,

I can’t believe there is still a small corner of the world that still believes that vaccination is a) science and b)effective.

I can’t believe anyone is unaware that the vast majority of doctors and scientists around the world recognize that the evidence for vaccine efficacy and safety is overwhelming and undeniable. Check out vaccine coverage in different countries if you don’t believe me. Only a small proportion of children in the USA and other developed countries are unvaccinated. It’s you that is part of a small minority of cranks, not vaccine proponents.

WW1 mythology. What was interesting was that the main group of ‘fatals’ was young men 15 to 34 and that was the call up age. Old and young people at home didn’t succumb in nearly anything like the same numbers.

That’s similar to the age ranges for mortality seen in the 2009 H1N1 pandemic:

Based on the study reported in August 2009, in more than 85% of laboratory-confirmed A/H1N1 deaths occurred in people under 60 years of age, with a mean age of deaths of 37 years. This is in marked contrast to seasonal influenza epidemics where 90% of deaths occur in people over 65 years and the mean age of influenza-related deaths is estimated at 76 yrs.

I don’t think people were overdosing on aspirin in 2009.

We now know that the reason so many died was because of mass aspirin poisoning, between 5 and 35gms to each with a fever.

Where did you get that information? I have seen contemporary documents written by homeopaths that claimed that 100 grains of aspirin (6.7 grams) were given in a 24 hour period, and another that 10 grains (0.7 grams) were given every 3 hours, which is 5.6 grams over the course of 24 hours. Karen Starko’s article on the subject (PMID: 19788357) states:

On 5 October 1918, The Journal of the American Medical Association recommended aspirin: “The acetylsalicylic acid may be given in a dosage of 1 gm. (15 grains) every three hours…or a smaller dose combined with 0.1 gm. (2 grains) acetophenetidin, until symptomatic relief is secured”.

I make that a maximum of 8 grams every 24 hours. However, based on contemporary accounts, Starko claims “daily doses of 8–31.2 grams” but she appears to conflate salicin and sodium salicylate with aspirin.

A potentially lethal dose of aspirin is greater than 500 mg/kg, in a 70 kg patient in the region of 35 grams. Continued dosing of 8 grams per day might lead to chronic toxicity but, judging by the 2009 pandemic, the virus alone was quite enough to cause the reported mortality.

‘Back during the H1N1 epidemics’ Hel……
Which we know did not happen because post ‘pandemic’ assessments pointed out that numbers were being fabricated based not on clinical testing confirmation but anecdotal clinical obs.

That isn’t true. The WHO reported 16,000 deaths from laboratory-confirmed H1N1 (see my second link above).

One person, who could not have been healthy, dying a week later does not maketh a fact, period

The paper I cited estimated that:

between 7,500 and 44,100 deaths are attributable to the A/H1N1 pandemic virus in the US during May-December 2009, and that between 334,000 and 1,973,000 years of life were lost.

If you disagree, perhaps you might point out the errors in their calculations.

pop socket/sock puppet: We have to assume you’ve got no citations for your outrageous statements.

The WHO has declared India free of endemic polio as of January 1, 2011 and infectious diseases specialists are meeting constantly to decide when OPV vaccine can be discontinued in favor of IPV…after the last case of wild polio in the world has been reported. You’re a liar when you claim that the definitions of acute flaccid paralysis have changed. Cases of acute flaccid paralysis are investigated:

http://www.polioeradication.org/Dataandmonitoring/Surveillance.aspx

What are you blathering about TB vaccine. Is TB (BCG) vaccine on the United States Recommended Childhood Vaccine Schedule?

Has BCG vaccine ever been on the United States Recommended Childhood Schedule?

From observation of the state of play, …

What’s your source for information on the “state of play” if you refuse all evidence tainted by peer review or (gasp) doctor involvement?

(cont’d)…whooping cough vaccine by any other definition of the concept of ‘working’ is a total year on year failure.

Do you think aviation safety is a total year on year failure if even a single accident happens? What was the incidence of whooping cough say 1 year before vaccine was introduced and 10 years after?

That’s the world of pharma. Why should we believe anything else they print?

What’s your reason for not trusting universities, non-governmental non-profit organizations, governments of nations without robust pharmaceutical industry?

What is ‘citation required’

You can read it as an opportunity to convert others by showing you are not just taking cues from some random antivaccine site but have actually researched what you speak of, or to tacitly admit that you haven’t.

“The Polio plus campaign in India is a classic example of this except they chose to alter the polio diagnostic criteria so you have to call it ‘infantile flaccid paralysis’.”

Yeah, just like I’m driving a Lamborghini Countach.

I mean, clearly theyve renamed it as “Kia Sedona”, but since the outcome is the same–it gets me from point A to point B along the highway–it must really be exactly the same thing under a different name. Right? [toggle sarcasm off]

‘Only a small proportion of children in the USA and other developed countries are unvaccinated.’ Kreb

So why do we keep getting whooping cough epidemics then smarty pants?

‘Do you think aviation safety is a total year on year failure if even a single accident happens? ‘ jerk

Nope but a whole cohort of vaccinated kids going down with whooping cough year on year, looks like a plane crash to me buddy, unless you believe in all that vaccine hype. Suggest you change your talisman before your nuts go up

A sideshow about a fake journal, cited twice? Y2K hysteria?
You obviously don’t trust modern life. You need to dump your computer and go back under that bridge where no one can get you.

So why do we keep getting whooping cough epidemics then smarty pants?

Because there are commuities where enough people remain unvaccinated against pertussis to compromise herd immunity, and in those communities we see disease outbreaks okay.

Really–it’s science, but it’s not rocket science. You should be able to understand that much at least.

Nope but a whole cohort of vaccinated kids going down with whooping cough year on year, looks like a plane crash to me buddy, unless you believe in all that vaccine hype.

Which identifies a need for an improved pertussis vaccine, but does not argue that routine childhood vaccination is neither safe nor effective. Agreed?

In the context of normal flu outbreaks and in the ocean of world population this is but a blip on the radar

So your position is “Those 16,000 dead people don’t matter, because there’s plenty more where they come from. Who cares if we could have prevented their deaths?” Really?

“…in those communities we see disease outbreaks occur“, not “we see disease outbreaks okay“.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/11393560/Flu-vaccine-given-to-millions-in-the-UK-barely-works.html

more vaccine failure masquerading as ‘wrong strain’.

I suppose 3% success is worse than placebo, are you sure these people are not asking homeopaths for marketing advice?

‘So it’s likely a more complex story than just denialism behind the resurgence of whooping cough, IMO . BD

Probably not Brian. We need a bit more than an anecdotal IMO from a part time writer who obviously hasn’t come up to speed with many unpaid facts yet.

How’s that internship at the Lancet coming on?

@Callie

I suspect you are right, the Black Death is a very different beastie because it can be control by other means. Control the Rodents, control the death. We actually did some rescue and recovery work in prairie dog country, so we got versed in plague onset symptoms. After the briefing, there was a pin drop silence until one of the J.O.s asked the obvious question, “Now, why exactly did we pick the one place in America you could get a medieval cluster-foo as our touch zone?”

That’s what selective reading will do to you. It doesn’t offer evidence that seasonal flu vaccination isn’t effective, but evidence that in most years it’sbeen very good indeed.

From the telegraph article linked:

The flu vaccine given to millions of people in the UK barely works, health officials have admitted, amid warnings that the number of deaths this winter will be the worst for 15 years.

Why will the number of deaths be the worst in 15 years? Not because flu vaccines don’t work as you claim, but instead because in the previous years flu vaccines worked very well indeed–averaging 50% efficacy–and prevented large numbers of deaths from occurring.

Not sure there been a Link here to this: an extended ‘web special’ of Dr, Jay’s interview with Ben Tracy.
http://tinyurl.com/q6pe384
He actually says a couple damning things they didn’t use in the evening news piece: He admits the majority of his patients are unvaccinated. “I have had many parents tell me they feel their child was harmed by the MMR. I believe them”

But it’s just a straight interview with some randomish b-roll. Tracy doesn’t come of as aggressive. There’s nobody contradicting Gordon… He could appear credible to many in this form. Compare this to the piece that ran on the Evening News, and you’ll see how tough that was.

So based on a predictive anecdote, you think you have a point to make? Based on past performance in the real world, flu vaccine is at best implausible. Cochraine

Mr. Poop Socket, you have just tipped your hand.

Sock Puppet: Brian Deer is correct about the changeover from whole cell DTP vaccine to the acellular version DTaP vaccine. The acellular version is not as effective, but it does not cause as many febrile seizures…which were the basis for multiple lawsuits from parents who claimed that their children were left with serious degenerative seizure disorders. Those children underwent genetic testing and were found to have a genetic disorder (Dravet Syndrome) with intractable-to-treatment Lennox-Gastaut seizures. (But you know that already because you are *somebody’s* sock puppet).

Sadmar, I disagree with your statement about Dr. Jay Gordon not being challenged when he spouts his ignorant anti-vaccine drivel.

– The Respectful Insolence blog and the Science Based Medicine blogs have an exceedingly high impact factor.

– Jay Gordon keeps returning to post on RI and SBM medicine blogs, looking for “approval”…even after he is challenged and called out for his “opinions” which he readily admits are not “evidence-based” and his pandering to vaccine-phobic parents.

– I’ve ripped into Jay Gordon up, down and sideways every time he returns to Ri or the SBM medicine blogs. I know the games he plays and his faux facade of “civility” which he drops just before he “disappears”.

Dr. Tom Jefferson is the head of the seasonal influenza Cochrane Collaboration, who, by his recent interviews and his seasonal influenza reports on behalf of the Cochrane Collaboration, no longer has credibility amongst his peers:

https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2013/01/25/cochranes-tom-jefferson-on-gary-null-show/

I have seen it called ‘Bill Gates variant polio’

I am SHOCKED SHOCKED SHOCKED to check with the Goggle and discover that the only person using this phrase is Philip Hills playing the different characters in his Dollies’ Tea Party, so when he claims to have seen it used, this is essentially a claim that he reads his own comments. So at least one person does.
His family must be so proud of him.

funny world you live in, a respected researcher discovers that flu vaccine doesn’t work and all you can do is character assassinate.

Can’t wait till Merck go down over MMR to see the look of Brian Deer’s underpants. I suppose you will all be debunking like choir boys. LOL

Oh the current flu vaccine is only 3% effective which I suppose if you believe in homeopathy is a cohort. or is it an EBM? You pays your money you takes your choice.

‘Dr. Tom Jefferson is the head of the seasonal influenza Cochrane Collaboration, who, by his recent interviews and his seasonal influenza reports on behalf of the Cochrane Collaboration, no longer has credibility amongst his peers:’
pants
Of course he doesn’t he has just pointed out that his peers are a bunch of lying toads. Well done Tom, someone has to tell his friends that their breath smells.

more weasle words to describe how vaccines fail before during and after an attack

The interested reader is invited to ponder the following facts, as reported by many decent newspapers:

1 – nation-wide in the US, well above 90% of people in US have received a measles vaccine.

2 – in the recent measles outbreak around Disneyland, the vast majority of people weren’t vaccinated, despite them being a minority, as pointed in 1)

It’s as the virus was targeting non-vaccinated people…

What exactly do you believe in and if so when does it word?

Rather early to be drinking, isn’t it, Philip Hills?

So based on a predictive anecdote, you think you have a point to make?

I thought my point was obvious: the reason this year’s flu season will be the worstseen in 15 years is because it will be almost, but not quite, as bad as if we didn’t vaccinate against the flue this year at all,

What part of that do you not understand?

JCV. I think you have the wrong flue (sic)

Good to know that I am not the only one that does not get a case of typo fingers.

In someways, I see this as an extension of “Gresham’s law”. If you have two circulating strains of flu, one for which you have vaccinated against and one not. At least in the case of the flu virus, the non-vaccinated strain will affect more people, a person will remain infectious longer. Its spread will be more rapid, almost like two substances of different polarity (chromatography). If we were only dealing with human vaccinated populations , eventually the strains we didn’t vaccinate would be the only strains left, aka the MRSA plaque. However, flu expands in areas of the world where vaccinations are not so prevalent. Isolated islands might show this effect.

“I thought my point was obvious: the reason this year’s flu season will be the worstseen in 15 years is because it……..”JVC

Who is predicting this JVC, is this another cornerstone of vaccination – prediction as well as guesswork?
They were stunningly wrong about SARS, avian, swine etc why on earth would the flu Offit soothsayers be right this time. let me guess, all the doctors will now anxious to please be labeling anyone with a sniff as being a flu person because we rely on doctors notifications rather than proper science to tell us it’s bad. Geez, it reads like some fairy story with a black ending

“I’ll keep getting the annual influenza vaccine, since I know it will reduce my risk of getting influenza by more than 50% on average. I get it free on the NHS too, since I have asthma, ” K

Why don’t you do something about your asthma? I assume you are in the UK. Have you seen the reports that 35% of doctor diagnosis asthma are wrong?

Oh, you have a cure for asthma so I’ll never suffer an exacerbation from a respiratory illness.

BTW, those exacerbations occur when I am on controller medication and right before the cold or flu or other respiratory ill my lung capacity is super-normal (usually between 130% and 150% of what it should be).

Of course you’ll just say I don’t really have asthma or some such as well it can’t be asthma just because the lung tests all prove I still have reactive airway issues at 130% of lung capacity and all asthma medications seem to work just fine and it reacts to all the normal asthma triggers.

And some docs are also researchers, I’m lucky enough to see some of those so am I allowed to listen to what they have to say? 🙂

Who is predicting this JVC, is this another cornerstone of vaccination – prediction as well as guesswork?

Yes, Philip Hills is so death-defyingly stupid that he didn’t even read the article that he himself posted.

I know there must be a biological form of “Gresham’s law”, I just can’t think of what it is called. It shows itself in rapid evolution of herbicide-resistant weeds and MRSA. It could be that Gresham’s law really is just a basic principle of evolution and does not have a unique name.

Gresham’s law has never been repealed, and showed its face in 1965 and in 1990’s when the “State quarters” were minted. Those that forget history are doomed to repeat the course.

They were stunningly wrong about SARS

Who are “they,” and what were they “stunningly wrong” about, Philip?

Hey, who am I?
Evidently a devoted admirer of Russell Blaylock, is who.
https://www.facebook.com/osteopathandacupunctureessex/posts/916667501707305

One of five examples of the pathetic repetition compulsion of Philip Hills, Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex:

Oh the current flu vaccine is only 3% effective which I suppose if you believe in homeopathy is a cohort.

Oh, look:

Considering, like with all vaccines, there is no long term study (this vax has only been out what 2 or 3 years) to show that the vaccined group against those that don’t have it either prevents mythical HPV pathways to cervical cancer you can’t claim it works either.

Like the way you dropped the flu jab conversation that was showing up your lack of ability to support the mythology of vaccination.

It’s ok for you to have a go at one homeopathic remedy and then imply that the whole of homeopathy is wrong, why is vaccination any different?

“Italy did not prepare at all”. So all the old Cobol programs just evolved to be 4 digit compliant? You might mean the federal government of Italy did not make many much effort, not considering that Italy relies upon contractual agreements for most of its big data application.

In the realm of crazy, this is king. There were PLC devices that were not compliant with 4 didget date

Oh, stewardess! I speak Chav.

Beat me to it.

I think you are all trauma dykes or something similar

Nah, that’s just me. I mean, as far as I know. (My friend Vlad and I used to joke about starting a band called The Trauma Queens, actually.)

Philip Hills is also a raving misogynist.
He seems to have had second thoughts about his choice of tasteful image for the clinic’s FB page:
https://www.facebook.com/osteopathandacupunctureessex/photos/a.829944673712922.1073741826.260535883987140/916806291693426/?type=1&theater

Who is predicting this JVC, is this another cornerstone of vaccination – prediction as well as guesswork?

Why are you asking me, pop? You’re the one who linked to the article.

Philip Hills is also a raving misogynist.
Lilady and other female commenters seem to bring out his inner sex offender. @277:

‘And, what are your qualifications to post comments about vaccines and V-P-Ds’ pants akimbo

Ladypants your ability to quote the lord is very impressive. Are you sure that you are not a disciple of Bishop Oracus, your ability to disengage is palpable.

So if ‘Bill Gates variant Polio’ is determined to be by ‘other causes’ lady pants let’s see who says so!

He handled himself particularly badly (IYKWIMAITYD) when commenting on Josephine Jones’ blog.

Why don’t you do something about your asthma? I assume you are in the UK.

Like acupuncture, Philip Hills?

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/lawrence-solomon/merck-whistleblowers_b_5881914.html
Have fun with this

Oh it’s just come out too that doctors and vaccine manufacturers knew as early as last summer that flu strains had mutated but carried on regardless. So 3% was planned and known way before. On Merck Col Tom, just interesting that this seems not to be on the main news when it’s in court especially when it’s looking bad for them.

Have fun with this

Leave it to Philip Hills to choose the dumbest fυcking source imaginable, Lawrence Solomon, in an attempt to barf up a distraction about Krahling & Wlochowski (who are in it for the money, remember?).

His wife would do well to check his browsing history.

Presuming that she’s not the reason he stumbled across the term “trauma dyke,” of course.

To clarify, that was the only time I’d ever been given anti-virals. I had never been offered them before or after. Also, they are one of the most difficult to swallow pills I ever encountered- try dry-swallowing a triangular pill.

I was on an anti-viral for shingles, which I had self-diagnosed as flesh eating bacteria. I don’t remember which anti-viral I took, but it was effective.

Colonel Tom: You were prescribed one of three anti-viral medications:

http://www.uptodate.com/contents/shingles-beyond-the-basics

Think about getting a shingles vaccine.

@Lilady Yes, I suspect I was prescribed one of the three standard treatments. I am just, disappointed, with my memory that I can not remember which one. Just as an aside, people with hypercholesteremia like myself sometimes develop plaques in the cerebral arteries also. There is a kind of dementia that can develop. I often worry when I forget something. Having lost parts of my mind during cardiac artery rerouting and rota-routing, I likely pay too much attention to forgetting even the smallest detail.

Back to point. I am not 60 yet, nor was I 50 when I had my breakout. Insurance will not pay for shingles vacc, even with the previous flare-up. My doctor has talked me out of the cost of the shot. That is almost certainly the most profitable tact for the insurance company to take.

I really was convinced that it was a hospital spawned bacteria, I had just gotten some cardiac testing prior to the flare-up so exposure was there. Small painful sores that did not respond to over-the-counter antibiotic cream.

Col Tom, differences aside why don’t you check this short film out showing that most cardiovascular diseases are in effect entry level scurvy. You can do a lot to change your prognosis and start now. Try liposomal vitamin C, you can make your own or buy it. 1gm is equivalent to 10g iv. Good luck.
http://www.credence.org/video/heart/
Used to be able to watch this without registering but it is worth the time and you can always insubscribe.

@liz & pop – that “sooper sekret” information is publicly available and published on a weekly basis by the CDC.

Wow, conspiracy-minded much?

Just freakin’ annoying that they would be asking for information that not only had been published here, but is also publicly available via the CDC website & updated weekly.

And they say they “research….” What a crock.

Given that measles is extraordinarily contagious, if the proportion of vaccinated people that were still susceptible were not very very small, we would expect to see thousands, if not tens of thousands, of cases by now (i.e. from the Disneyland outbreak).

why don’t you check this short film out showing that most cardiovascular diseases are in effect entry level scurvy.

Quite amusing, coming from Mr. “Catastrophic Heart Rupture.”

I would like to see a simple statistic re the measles outbreak in disney land world, whatever: of the children/individuals etc that
are fighting measles, what is the percentage of those that were vaccinated? What is that %? obviously a hidden fact, that blows the vaccine movement out of the water!

Actually, no. That “simple statistic” could not tell you anything meaningful by itself.

Suppose you were told that in a particular community, everyone either belonged to the Foo group or to the Bar group. You have no idea what percentage of the population is Foo and what percentage is Bar. If you are given a statistic such as “30% of the money raised by the charity drive was donated by Foos”, can you safely conclude “Foos are more generous than Bars”? No, you cannot. If Foos happen to be 30% of the population, that means that Foos and Bars contributed the same amount per person, on the average. If Foos make up 80% of the population, yet they only contributed 30% of the charity totals, suddenly the Bars look like the generous ones. But then the picture changes if we find out Foos are only 2% of the population; suddenly they look amazingly generous!

When it comes to outbreaks, the non-vaccinated are almost without exception the “generous” ones when it comes to giving us disease cases (though it’s a generosity no one wants!) Time after time, outbreak after outbreak, the nonvaccinated account for a percentage of the cases that is FAR above the less than 10% they make up of the general population. Do you realize what it means that in some outbreaks, the unvaccinated cases actually do constitute the greater percentage of the total outbreak cases? You have to have a relative risk factor in excess of 500% for that to happen!

Wow – all CAPS. I must have struck a nerve.

I wasn’t going to bother, but since I was able to find this in about 2 secs, I thought I would post it:

http://www.cdc.gov/measles/cases-outbreaks.html

Here’s the MMWR:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm64e0213a1.htm

Up to about 12% infected may have been technically on schedule, with floating rates of 1 to 3 shots — 1% had 3 shots. Combined 88% unvaccinated & unknown, with 67% “personal beliefs” exemption status.

What it doesn’t tell you is titers before infection of those on schedule, and of course how many exposed that were vaccinated didn’t develop symptoms, which you could Ro it from the infected at the 18 exponent.

…and of course how many exposed that were vaccinated didn’t develop symptoms, which you could Ro it from the infected at the 18 exponent.

Indeed you can. Since measles infects 90% of susceptible people exposed, 49 unvaccinated cases means that 54 unvaccinated people were exposed. Since the vaccination rate is about 90%, 54 unvaccinated exposures means that 490 vaccinated people were exposed. Of those, 12 developed measles (if you lump all the vaccinated cases together), meaning that vaccinated people had a 2.4% chance of developing measles, compared to a 90% chance for unvaccinated people.

Yeah, I thought it was interesting that nearly half of the vaccinated cases had only had one dose – I imagine that population would be quite small, since it would mostly be kids between the first and second doses. That definitely argues for a greater efficacy for the second dose compared to the first. I wish they had also published the vaccination status of the people who were hospitalized, since one of the things antivaxers frequently ignore when arguing that vaccines are useless because they’re not 100% effective is that breakthrough infections are generally less severe.

how many people have died from measles ? what is the death rate per 100k?

During 2011, a provisional total of 222 measles cases were
reported from 31 states (Figure 1). The median age of the
patients was 14 years (range: 3 months to 84 years); 27 (14%)
were aged <12 months, 51 (26%) were aged 1–4 years, 42
(21%) were aged 5–19 years, and 76 (39%) were aged ≥20
years. Most patients were unvaccinated (65%) or had unknown
vaccination status (21%). Of the 222, a total of 196 were U.S.
residents. Of those U.S. residents who had measles, 166 were
unvaccinated or had unknown vaccination status,no deaths were reported. 26% of these cases were vaccinated and yet acquired the virus..

who knows what’s in the vaccine formulation, really cmon, if you really wanted to control the masses, what better way than thru vaccines?? fear is a great motivator.

Fear is a great motivator, which the antivax loons use to the max. For instance, consider your preceding sentence.

BTW, since your name isn’t e e cummings, you don’t get to ignore the shift key without looking pretentious.

if you really wanted to control the masses, what better way than thru vaccines?

Well, since you ask, I think the following would be better ways to control the masses than through vaccines:
– Political speeches
– Religion
– Appeals to ancient prejudices and hatreds
– Using words to mean something other than their actual meanings in order to trick people into doing what you want

The problem with using vaccines to control the masses is that you’ve got no end game. Someone gets the vaccine – and s/he is no longer under your control. However, if you work to convince people something untrue about vaccines so that they’ll believe your theory about how the government, business, and the medical-industrial complex are trying to control them via vaccines, you can get them to do all kinds of things. Things like, well, donate money. Or write letters to the editor. Or even comment on someone’s blog.

Thanks for asking!

who knows what’s in the vaccine formulation

Anyone who cared enough to take a sample to a laboratory. If conspiracy theorists can’t be arsed getting it analysed, I guess they don’t really care.

wow Liz, there’s nothing like letting the world think you’re a fool, than to speak out and confirm it.

From my comment 448, taken from cdc site, “26% of these cases were vaccinated and yet acquired the virus..”
If you think you think you’re up to it, explain the stat, without diversion, and attacking my intelligence, if you can.

forced / mandatory vaccinations with penalties, and ban the sale of cigarettes, Allright!!

^ one person out of the cohort of 95 vaccinated people when exposed to the measles will come down with it.

No explanation for my old-timey spelling of “whom” but butterfingers.

why are you people giving a rat’s a s s with regards to measle vaccination, when smoking is the big killer??

I see no reason why a person can’t be concerned with both smoking and with the measles.

forced / mandatory vaccinations with penalties, and ban the sale of cigarettes, Allright!!

Oh, is that your position? Personally, I don’t think an outright ban on the sale of cigarettes has any chance of going anywhere. Taxing the heck out of them seems to be fairly effective, though.