I’ve been writing a lot of posts on what I like to call the “antivaccine dogwhistle.” In politics, a “dog whistle” refers to rhetoric that sounds to the average person to be reasonable and even admirable but, like the way that a dog whistle can’t be heard by humans because the frequency of its tone is higher than the range that humans can hear, most people don’t “hear” the real message. However, the intended audience does hear the real message. The way the “dog whistle” works in politics is through the use of coded language recognizable to the intended audience but to which most other people are fairly oblivious. In our not-too-distant past, for instance, “states’ rights” was code for institutionalized segregation.
As I’ve described before, antivaccinationists have a number of coded dog whistles that they like to use. By far the favorite antivaccine dog whistle is the invocation of “parental rights” and “informed consent.” The former was most blatantly exhibited recently by Rand Paul when he bluntly stated, “The state doesn’t own the children. Parents own the children, and it is an issue of freedom.” Of course, one wonders if this was a Freudian slip, because surely someone as politically savvy as Rand Paul must know that likening children to slaves who are “owned” is distasteful. But maybe not. As I’ve said many times before, antivaccinationism is all about the parents, not the children, and unfortunately in this country there is a pervasive assumption that children are property and that parental rights to choose trump a child’s right to decent medical care. We’ve seen this time and time again in other contexts, such as faith healing, where the parents’ freedom of religion trumps the child’s right to be treated for diabetes or pneumonia or a parents’ rights trump the right of a child with cancer to effective care.
Other examples of antivaccine dog whistles abound. For instance, there’s “informed consent,” which in the case of antivaccine activists really amounts to misinformed consent, where parents base their decision not to vaccinate on misinformation painting vaccines as dangerous and ineffective. That’s why antivaccinationists hate bills that propose requiring parents to receive counseling from physician or other health care professional before an exemption to school vaccine mandates will be granted. Other dog whistles are a bit extreme, and, like a low quality dog whistle whose lower register can be heard by humans, let the crazy show even to those who are not antivaccine, such as the likening of any measure to tighten or eliminate nonmedical exemptions to the first step towards a new Holocaust or even to human trafficking. You’d have to be pretty oblivious not to recognize the crazy in these.
There’s another dog whistle that I don’t recall having discussed, but fortunately (or unfortunately, depending upon your view), ex-UPI journalist turned propagandist for the nattering know-nothings at the antivaccine crank blog Age of Autism, Dan Olmsted, provided a perfect example the other day in a post entitled Control All Delete, Part 1: The Un-American Suppression of the Vaccine Safety Debate. (Oh, goody. There’s going to be a part 2.) In it, Olmsted puts that dog whistle to his lips and blows and blows and blows:
Last month, the Toronto Star ran a perfectly reasonable article titled “A Wonder Drug’s Dark Side,” about adverse events following the HPV vaccine Gardasil. It wasn’t long before the paper and its editor, Michael Cooke, were set on by the raving pack of hyenas that attacks anyone who dares suggest that vaccines are not pure as the driven snow.
Of course, as we know, the reason that Toronto Star article was so vigorously criticized was because it was a flaming pile of nonsense. No wonder Robert “Dr. Bob” Sears liked it. It was so bad that ultimately the Star printed an article signed by scientists about the other side, disowned the article, it and, finally, decided to take it off of the newspaper’s website. Basically, the reporters made an egregious rookie mistake when dealing with vaccine stories and treated reports in the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) database as though they were reliable. Oh, sure, they added some disclaimers that just because an adverse event is reported in VAERS and Canada’s equivalent database, the Canada Vigilance Adverse Reaction Online Database doesn’t necessarily mean that the vaccine caused it, but that disclaimer was weak tea compared to portraits of a mother whose daughter died, a death she blames on Gardasil.
It’s a story I’ve discussed before in detail before, Annabelle Morin, and her death was almost certainly not due to Gardasil although antivaccinationists have been furiously spinning it as such for years. I mean, come on! The online version of the article included a video in which Morin’s mother Linda is shown looking over her daughter’s old bedroom and putting flowers on her grave! Don’t get me wrong; I do feel a great deal of sympathy for Ms. Morin, but her grief has led her down the dark path of believing that Gardasil killed her daughter when it almost certainly did not and then becoming an antivaccine activist. Against Linda Morin and the other girls portrayed as having been injured by Gardasil, coupled with the usual blather by Dr. Diane Harper, and the disclaimers couldn’t stand. That’s even leaving out the extensive contacts between some of the parents and antivaccine, anti-Gardasil groups and use of naturopathic quackery to treat their daughters.
But, hey. To Olmsted the criticism leveled at the Star, its editor and reporters, and its publisher is akin to being set upon by a “raving pack of hyenas.” (You know, that wouldn’t be a bad name for a band.) Indeed, he seems to be wishing for the “good old days” when editors had a “bite me!” attitude. Actually, that’s just what the Star‘s editor, Michael Cooke, exhibited at first, when he sent Julia Belluz of Vox.com an e-mail saying, “Stop gargling our bathwater and take the energy to run yourself your own, fresh tub” and told off another critic on Twitter thusly, “Stop being an idiot.” Very classy. No wonder Olmsted liked it. Of course, cooler heads prevailed and the publisher ultimately decided to retract the story, enraging Olmsted:
Under a barrage of criticism, on February 20 the publisher – his boss — announced that “the Gardasil story package of Feb. 5 will be removed from our website.”
In explaining the article’s removal, the publisher wrote: “The weight of the photographs, video, headlines and anecdotes led many readers to conclude the Star believed its investigation had uncovered a direct connection between a large variety of ailments and the vaccine.”
Well yeah, it kind of did lead readers to conclude that – and the conclusion was more than justified, as readers of our own coverage of the vaccine will know. But “we have concluded that in this case our story treatment led to confusion between anecdotes and evidence,” the publisher said, and so it was pulled.
So, the publisher did the right thing; we don’t know whether Cooke was on board with it or not or whether he simply had to swallow and accept this rebuke from his publisher. Either way, it took the Star over two weeks last month of flailing to realize what a mess it had made, but at least in the end its publisher made the right choice.
Now here comes the dog whistle:
This is just the latest example of a disturbing and, frankly, un-American (in the case of the Toronto Star, un-North American) trend: self-censorship and craven caving to criticism. Salon pulling Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s piece on the CDC’s cover-up of thimerosal’s damage in vaccines was among the first and foremost.
It’s not just pulling published journalism that is suppressing urgently needed debate. Google is reported to be talking about ranking its search results not just by relevance and popularity but by deciding which sites are most “accurate.” So if you humans don’t cause global warming or do cause autism, you can expect to show up lower and later because, as we all know already and need not discuss any further, you are not accurate!
Yep. If you don’t have the science, invoke “open debate” or, as I like to call it the “help, help, I’m being repressed!” gambit. It just goes to show that the media has gotten a lot better at avoiding false balance that gives too much credence to crank viewpoints with respect to vaccines. Beginning a decade ago, back when I was a new blogger struggling to find a voice, I frequently noted that I both dreaded and looked forward to April. Why? Because April is Autism Awareness Month. I dreaded it because, like clockwork I’d see the media do vaccine-autism stories and trot out antivaccine loons like J.B. Handley and, later, Jenny McCarthy and her then-boyfriend Jim Carrey to give the “other side,” alongside actual physicians and scientists. Calling Dara O’Briain!
I can’t help it. I love that video. I also like that we don’t see such egregious false balance about vaccines in the media as much as we used to. The media seem to be learning, although the Disneyland measles outbreak has unfortunately somewhat resurrected false balance or even explicitly antivaccine stories.
I also love how Olmsted has zero self-awareness:
The New York Times and other publications explicitly forbid what they call false balance – giving any credence or even coverage to what they consider “anti-vaccine” cranks. If you think that vaccine reactions are more frequent and more serious than the drug companies and government say – the heart of our argument and, again, a perfectly reasonable policy debate — and that those reactions include autism, you are a tinfoil-hat type.
Well, yes. Exactly. Dan Olmsted and the rest of the crew at AoA are tinfoil hat types, and the media have finally started to recognize it (or at least stopped being as willing to give equal time to tinfoil hat types as they used to be). AoA uses pseudoscience, misinformation, and conspiracy theories to try to argue that vaccines cause problems that they do not, problems such as autism, autoimmune diseases, sudden infant death syndrome, and the like. They claim that they are “not antivaccine” and are “pro-vaccine safety,” but you will never, ever see any of them willing to provide an example of a vaccine they consider sufficiently safe and effective to use it on their children. (If any AoA blogger has given such an example, I’ve never seen it, and unfortunately I’ve been reading the damned blog since its inception.) These are the things that make them tinfoil hat types, not their mere questioning of vaccine safety. In other words, it’s the process, the reasoning (or, more precisely, the lack thereof) and pseudoscience that got them to their conclusion that vaccines are dangerous that makes them cranks, not the conclusion.
In this, antivaccine activists are just like creationists. It’s not “questioning Darwin” that makes creationists cranks. It’s the misinformation and pseudoscience used to question evolution. It’s the process. No wonder Olmsted really detests that comparison as well:
Creationism and vaccine-induced autism – what a moral equivalency! The real equivalency is between the Times warmongering coverage of Iraq’s supposed weapons of mass destruction, and its smug certainty that vaccines don’t cause autism – the most important international, and the most important domestic, issues of our time, both muffled and missed by the Times. Some institutions have no memory or ability to learn from their mistakes.
This is, of course, a non sequitur. Just because the New York Times got it wrong about weapons of mass destruction does not mean it didn’t get it right about vaccines and autism, and it did. Its explicit policy of not giving false balance to antivaccine cranks is a wise policy. After all, when it’s publishing a story about astronomy, does the NYT interview an astrologer alongside, say, Neil deGrasse Tyson for “balance”? Or when doing a story about earth science, does the NYT interview a flat earth believer, just for “balance”? Or, yes, when doing a story about evolution, does the NYT interview Ken Ham or another creationist for “balance”? No, at least not any more. The same is and should remain true about not interviewing antivaccine loons like Olmsted for “balance” in vaccine or autism stories.
Science, unlike politics, is not a system where, when you have two extreme viewpoints, the answer usually lies somewhere in the middle. That’s what’s known as the “fallacy of moderation” or the “fallacy of the golden mean.” No, in science, there are right and wrong answers, and in the case of vaccines the right answers lie on the pro-vaccine side, not the antivaccine side. It is not “un-American” to say that and act accordingly, nor is it in any way muzzling free speech, given that the antivaccine movement has numerous outlets through which they can promote their message. Nor is Google stifling free speech by trying to tweak its algorithms to produce more accurate search results rather than the most popular; it’s improving its product and responding to business imperatives. That such a change is likely to greatly diminish the rankings of many crank websites in Google searches is good thing, and certainly no website has a “right” to a high Google ranking based on popularity. It’s Google’s business, and it can change its algorithms as it sees fit.
In scientific and medical controversies, if you have the data and evidence, you use it. Since the antivaccine viewpoint is not a medical viewpoint and is not supported by science, that just leaves using dog whistles like appeals to freedom, warnings about creeping fascism, and complaints of being victims of “un-American” suppression of speech. It’s all antivaccinationists have. Well, that and anecdotes and pseudoscience.
Oh, and calling vaccine scientists like Paul Offit names like Dr. Proffit. Stay classy, Dr. Bob.
734 replies on “An “un-American suppression” of antivaccine views or good reporting?”
So if you humans don’t cause global warming or do cause autism
Olmsted seems to have missed out the word “think”, but more importantly, he is saying that vaxophobia is the equivalent of climate-change denial. OK, I can’t argue with that.
“un-american”
I’ve always thought that term Orwellian.
Hyenas are highly cooperative social animals. They are working hard to get a living, and like Marines, they don’t like to leave one of them behind.
Not everybody could be a lion living off his (mostly) females’ followers.
Helianthus
And the first thing that male lion or a coalition of male lions do when they take over a pride is call the young cubs and drive off the older cubs. This is a good analogy to anti-vaxxer’s attitude to other people’s children.
What the heck is “un-North American”, anyway? Disliking football AND hockey? Refusing to partake of either apple pie or maple syrup?
Just when I think I’ve got the hang of this place, too…
Shouldn’t there be tequila and tacos also, for a full triumvirate of North Americana?
I always thought the idea of un-American anything was a bit weird. I mean, I can’t imagine declaring anything un-Swedish or un-Mexican behavior, for example.
/offtopic
@ Militant Agnostic
I was quite pleased coming up with this analogy, but I didn’t realize it could be that deeply accurate.
In real life, the over-romanticized lion is quite a jerk and a bully. If it is the role Olmsted see himself in by giving us the hyena part, I will gladly let him having it.
OT
Re: the picture used by Orac under the headline.
Is it projection on my part, or are people surrounding the speaker having a “damn, here he goes again” face?
@Helianthus: not projection. If my guess is correct, that man is Senator Joseph McCarthy, who headed up the House Un-American Activities Committee and whose activities are mest remembered with the phrase “McCarthyist Witch Hunts”.
Yes, that is Senator Joe McCarthy.
Actually, however, Sen. McCarthy was not the chair of the House Un-American Activities Committee for the simple reason that he was a Senator, and the HUAC was a committee of the House of Representatives. The two did operate at the same time for a while, although the HUAC predated McCarthy, having started in the late 1940s, while McCarthy’s campaign didn’t start until 1950. In any case, HUAC was known more for going after Communists in the entertainment industry, resulting in the blacklisting of actors, writers, directors, etc., accused of being Communists or having Communist sympathies. Sen. McCarthy was known for casting his net wider and claiming that the US government was riddled with Commies, starting with a speech accusing the State Department of having Communist infiltration. The HUAAC actually lasted a couple of decades, whereas McCarthy’s reign of terror lasted less than five years—fortunately.
My husband pointed out that Rand Paul’s statement implicitly makes him pro-choice, since “parents own the children”.
Sometimes it’s like they don’t realize people have memories, or the ability to look things up.
@ Orac, Julian Frost
Ah, I thought so. I have read Joseph Welch hotly diatribe against McCarthy when he had enough of the BS and I enjoyed the style.
(actually, I just learned it’s Joseph Welch in the left of the picture)
And funny enough, I just learned (or have been reminded) that McCarthyism was also against “socialized” medicine, including water fluoridation (of course, a classic), and ‘ding ding ding’ polio vaccine. Plus ca change…
Very apropos picture.
“This is just the latest example of a disturbing and, frankly, un-American (in the case of the Toronto Star, un-North American) trend: self-censorship and craven caving to criticism.”
First thought on reading this quote. Does Olmsted realize Canada is not the 51st state? The subsequent clarification does little to change the opinion.
I may just have too many Canadian friends and relatives but the idea that the two entities are essentially identical just grates for me.
OT more or less, but the excellent Lawrence Soloman of EnergyProbe in Toronto, noted climate denier and all-around science-phobe has just started his own anttvaxer site. http://vaccinefactcheck.org/
Isn’t it hilariously ironic that Dan talks about ‘suppression’ when he and his fellow/ sister anti-vaccine activists work to SUPPRESS most of the studies that illustrate that vaccines and autism are un-related?
They endeavor to discourage parents from viewing more realistic writers’ articles- including research – about vaccines and/ or autism by labelling them ‘shills’. ‘liars’ or ‘felons’. They call for the heads of journalists of whom they don’t approve because of their support of SBM. Recently, it appears that Dan entirely mis-represented what Brian Deer discussed on his website. And it wasn’t the first time. Orac’s work is not exactly portrayed accurately as well.
AoA moderates comments with a vengeance and it is rare that an opposing viewpoint gets through ( although a few of Orac’s minions have succeeded).
Like the alt media prevaricators, Dan & Co, would have their readers envisage a vast, looming police state, bent on censoring their rebellious voices and planning, as we speak, to jail revolutionaries for their every action and thought.
HOWEVER they do seem to spend a lot of time on the internet broadcasting these impending crimes UN-IMPEDED in any way.
I guess that’s the worst form of suppression- the kind you don’t see.
If you think that vaccine reactions are more frequent and more serious than
the drug companies and governmentdozens of national and international public health and scientific organizationssayhave shown with compelling evidence from large-scale studies, and you also beleive that there is some sort of global cover-up that has effectively silenced hundreds of thousands of parents, pediatricians, scientists, and public health workers while somehow entirely failing to silence a rag-tag group of mentaly disturbed parents egged on by a small handful of profiteering doctors...you are a tinfoil hat type.FTFY, Dan.
Here are some questions** for Orac;s minions:
does anyone know what Dan is paid or earns from AoA?
Does he have other means of support? I know he writes books with Blaxill but I can’t imagine that being very lucrative.
He lives in the Washington area which I’ve heard is rather expensive. He can afford an Uber ride.
** I did run across AoA figures a while ago but am pressed for time.
A local tv/radio station just ran a story on the measles outbreak.http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/03/16/study-disneyland-measles-outbreak-linked-to-low-vaccine-rates/ I’m sure the true believers have begun their attack on them.
So close to a Safire allusion.
@KayMarie
I had the same thoughts regarding the un-American comment.
To Dan and the rest of the AoA set, anything that agrees with their mindset is automatically double-plus good and free from any faults. Anything that disagrees with their mindset is automatically double-plud un-good and clearly a conspiracy perpetrated by Eastasia (or was it Eurasia…latest missive from the Ministry of Truth seems to be late).
After the Star fiasco, CBC Radio had a lovely session with a vaxer and antivaxer on the program The Current. Definately an excellent case of media balance. More like staking out a goat to attract the prey. 🙂
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/vaccinations-assisted-suicide-ruling-organized-crime-1.2952333/vaccinations-pro-and-anti-vaxxer-parents-make-their-cases-1.2952339
The host of The Current is generally well-briefed and not shy. It is an interesting look into the mind (???) of the woman who said she did her “research”.
Just in time to be cut off at the knees by the host. It, really did not make the antivaxer look too good.
I don’t know the audience numbers but the show is heard coast-to-coast and seems very popular. It is likely to have had a decent effect although I suspect the demographics are a bit in the older range. Still having a raging grandma asking why the kids are vaccinated may help.
Remember, you can’t be “unAmerican” without the UN!
kidding /
I’m sure that vaccine reactions are greater in number than what companies and the government report. Thus is the nature of epidemiological surveillance. You don’t capture all cases all the time because public health is not omniscient. The thing is that these questions are best left to be answered by science than by anti-vaccine blogs and celebrities.
I’m also sure that vaccine reactions are smaller in severity than what the anti-vaccine groups say. Again, the true severity of reactions is out there, but all the evidence we have so far — from a myriad of sources — points to reactions that are mild, and away from autism.
But that’s not what they want to hear. They want a different way of doing surveillance for adverse events only if it will lead toward their preconceived notions about the number and severity of adverse events. Anything short of their fantasies coming true is unacceptable.
(Anecdotal): When I worked as a public health nurse for a large County health department, I audited children’s immunizations records at the 7 County health clinics, at area hospitals’ pediatric clinics and at private doctors offices.
I also had contact with the State Department of Health’s Immunization coordinator, who discussed any severe adverse events that were reported to the CDC. They were few and far between. I recall one case of a severe adverse event (onset of seizures), following a vaccination and the parents refused all vaccinations for their younger child…who, was eventually diagnosed with a seizure disorder.
“Oh, and calling vaccine scientists like Paul Offit names like Dr. Proffit. Stay classy, Dr. Bob.”
Dr. Bob’s classless Facebook remarks about Dr. Offit has already been covered by Skeptical Raptor, Orac:
http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/evidence-that-youre-anti-vaccine-bob-sears-personal-attacks-on-paul-offit/
raving pack of hyenas.
I suspect that Olmsted meant ‘ravening’ but he’s not very good with words. He also talks of ‘moral equivalency’ when he simply means ‘equivalency’, but that’s what happens when your rhetoric is a mushy regurgitation of half-digested fragments of other people’s phrasing.
As Narad noted, Olmsted seems to be an admirer of Spiro Agnew.
@22 Ren re: under reporting of adverse effects…
The anti-vaxxers continually shout “only 10% of adverse effects are reported!” Where does this come from?
Regarding Joe McCarthy, I witnessed an intriguing sidelight. When Roy Cohn, the notorious attorney who was McCarthy’s right hand man, was sick with AIDS (He was a closeted homosexual who persecuted gay men alongside McCarthy.) he also had an opportunistic malignancy from it. I heard Dr. James Holland, a legendary oncologist who was head of oncology research at Mount Sinai in New York, remark that Roy Cohn had asked him for treatment. He called Cohn a son of a bitch, said he had refused his request, and also said he had had dealings with Cohn in the past that were enough for him. While Holland had a reputation for being cantankerous, he also was generally pretty reasonable, and I have always wondered what passed between them.
While we are (perpetually, it seems,) on the topic of antivaxers, I thought this bit of news would bring a smile:
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/mar/13/measles-sceptic-must-pay-doctor-100000
One hundred thousand euros. Wow. I hope he has to sell his house to raise the money.
I’m affraid mr. Lanka will try to weasel out of this.
Dave, Lanka has a history as an hiv/aids denialist.( virusmyth)
Not the only one shifting focus to vaccines:
Farber, Ruggiero, Montagnier ( who was first a realist)
probably others.
When pressed, it generally boils down to either a comment (PDF) about AERS or a completely unsourced assertion by Mr. Dinner Jacket, Gary S. Goldman.
(The Flying Dolphin has a half-assed cite to some newspaper.)
Who knows?
Even if that was the case, then that means that 90% of reactions are not bad enough to be reported… For those of us living in the real world.
In Crosby’s Labyrinth, it means that 90% of really bad reactions are being covered by paid doctors, nurses, lab techs, epidemiologists, parents, daycare providers, etc. That must be where all that money from vaccines goes to, to pay all of us to keep quiet.
Not the only one shifting focus to vaccines:
Farber, Ruggiero
Ruggiero is focussing most of his attention on his yogurt-enema cancer-cure scam.* I haven’t seen any sign of him switching to the vaccine grift.
* A worthy topic for Respectful Insolence.
Roy Cohn … had an opportunistic malignancy from it
“Opportunistic malignancy” sums up Cohn’s entire career.
Yogurt enemas? What is this obsession the woosters have with sticking perfectly good foodstuffs in the wrong orifice?
“The media seem to be learning, although the Disneyland measles outbreak has unfortunately somewhat resurrected false balance or even explicitly antivaccine stories.” pro vaccine dog shite
LOL so according to the CDC an unknown woman who was probably unvaccinated and is now untraceable probably started the outbreak. The dog-whistle here is that the vaccine has failed and dark forces are being used as a smokescreen. Meanwhile the child that died of measles in Germany had already been vaccinated for measles and we don’t mention that just in case it detracts from the emotional appeals to ‘get that damn vaccine’. Hey Groski, if you push the dog whistle up your arse you could probably play a tune. toot toot
How about your site, bullshit masquerading as real news!
LOL
Is that the kind with the fruit on the bottom?
What is this obsession the woosters have with sticking perfectly good foodstuffs in the wrong orifice?
Ruggiero has a lucrative little business making “Bravo probiotic” magic yogurt, but there is only so much that his patients can absorb through the mouth and inhaled as an aerosol, so he also sells them suppositories per vas nefandum.
Altho’ I am certainly loathe to correct my very handsome Antipodean brother, Ruggiero developed a protocol for ASD treatment (2014) and will be a presenter @ AutismOne 2015 (see website).
-btw- he calls it the Swiss Protocol ™:
I wonder if it includes…….
I’ve seen Ruggiero on the autism grift, yes indeed. He has linked up with Bradstreet, a serial recipient of Oracian insolence. Oddly enough the same magic yogurt that cures cancer and HIV and heavy-metal poisoning and CFS, also turns out to cure autism! Who would have expected it!
But he seems to be circumspect on the *etiology* of autism (where rash speculation could rule out potential income streams).
RobRN: “The anti-vaxxers continually shout “only 10% of adverse effects are reported!” Where does this come from?”
EpiRen: “Even if that was the case, then that means that 90% of reactions are not bad enough to be reported… For those of us living in the real world.”
Most of us don’t bother reporting a sore arm.
Johnny: “Meanwhile the child that died of measles in Germany had already been vaccinated for measles and we don’t mention that just in case it detracts from the emotional appeals to ‘get that damn vaccine’. ”
Stop lying.
36 posts, and the first anti-vax screed is from some dude blasting obscenities and misspelling people’s names?
I remember the days when the wackjob heavyweights would show up in a comments thread. Now we get dudes who probably couldn’t get an AoA or whale.to guest blogging spot. Maybe this site need to be more anti-vax insolent. 🙂
You know, I know what you’re talking about. I used to get JB Handley, and a bunch of other antivax heavyweights commenting here. I don’t think it’s ramping up the insolence that’s needed; what happened, I suspect, is that they so regularly got their posteriors handed to them that they now avoid the comment threads here. I know they know about me though. Readers send me examples of their complaining about me and insulting me on Facebook and various other discussion forums.
These days, only the dregs or newbies who haven’t encountered RI before seem to be willing to dip their toes in.
Johnny’s been elsewhere trying to peddle his lies – I truly believe the anti-vaxers believe that if they keep repeating the same lie over and over again, that eventually it will be accepted as truth.
Johnny’s been elsewhere trying to peddle his lies
Got links? I have a morbid curiosity in Johnny Labile / Philip Hill’s obsessions & compulsions.
I remember those days. Sadly, all I’ve seen lately were a few tiny comments by Dr. Jay, and they were pretty pathetic examples. I’ve noticed this happening to a number of blogs I read on a regular basis, the big names used to come and get involved, and came out looking pretty bad to anyone that was not one of their acolytes. It actually seemed a bit strange to me, they are often very good at controlling their message, making sure they are never questioned, so coming here, and to similar blogs, always seemed like such a mistake. I suppose over time, they did learn it was not helping. Not that they have stopped caring, they still rant and rave about the same people, they just do it where they are not going to have to answer questions.
Philip Hills, Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex, as usual, you’re so fυcking stupid that you can’t even be bothered to get the contents of your anal sacs properly congealed before repeatedly carpet-scooting the same material all over the place.
The CDC never said any such thing. Now, I know where it came from, as does most anyone who has been paying attention. Then again, I also know where the NICE guideline on antipyretics that you tediously mischaractize the year and content of is.
So, why don’t you be a good little shіt and either take a hand out of your pants or off the bottle and sort it the fυck out?
Mein Herr Doktor B. – I doff my chapeau to your characterization of Roy Cohn.
I have to say that I was not the only one astonished to hear the words “son of a bitch” come out of the mouth of the usually quite proper Dr. Holland. That’s what makes the background to that remark tantalizing.
herr doktor bimler@1
A most Freudian slip.
Re: little Johnny above
For the record:
Disneyland Measles Outbreak Linked To Philippines
And:
Measles death in Germany
a-non, “Now we get dudes who probably couldn’t get an AoA or whale.to guest blogging spot.”
More like “dudes who couldn’t write their own names without auto-complete” or “dudes who couldn’t pour piss out of a boot without illustrations printed on the heel” (and dudettes, of course).
That time Fat Jesus got tased in the face, yeah, just like that.
It’s really extra-super-plus repellent that you keep repeating that vicious, self-serving lie.
jrkridea: “OT more or less, but the excellent Lawrence Soloman of EnergyProbe in Toronto, noted climate denier and all-around science-phobe has just started his own anttvaxer site.”
Stupidity runs rampant there. It is almost like it is a AoA wannabe.
What I found interesting is that I tried to find Solomon’s CV. No where can I find his educational background, it is like it is completely missing. I am going to guess that he only graduated from high school, barely.
Once again, supposing this were true (which, based on good information, it isn’t), then what would this show? It would show that the vaccine is not 100% effective (which everyone knows) so some people who are vaccinated but not immune can still catch the measles (which only follows from the previous statement), and that measles can be fatal (which everyone knows). Thus it is important to get your children vaccinated not only for their own sake (as it’s the best way we know to reduce their chances of getting the disease) but for the sake of other children, even those who are already vaccinated.
Jeebus you need to come with a warning sometimes. I made very strange piggly noises when I read that…but yeah I’m twelve.
Ah, yes. I remember when thought leaders from AoA would comment here- Handley, Stone, Jake.
Believe it or not, they seemed to have actually learned that they will be corrected and schooled, having their common urban legends up-ended and their pseudo-science ridiculed publicly. This is not good for their images,
So they know that they will later have to explain what occurred to their readers and it’s too hard for them. Orac and company present them with questions that they can’t answer. They are constantly rebuked for their misattributions and misunderstanding of basic research. AND certainly their own entrenched interests are questioned.
Thus it’s better to send in the ranks as cannon fodder.
And right, the wounded ( Greg, Jen) regularly report on Orac and his scandalous minions.
Perhaps I’m being too literal minded, but the example of McCarthy is an awkward analogy.
McCarthy was a creep, and there were a substantial group of Communists working to harm the nation. Whether or not McCarthy intended it, he became their greatest asset.
How substantial?
ObVenona (PDF)
(k)NobVenona (but… Conservopedia too!!)
Considering how Solomon boasts of his accomplishments, including being a “leading” environmentalist, a “best-selling” author and “research director” and “chairman” of a multitude of obscure “institutes” and organizations, I think it’s safe to
say that if he had any educational qualifications, he would let us know about them. Oh, how he would let us know.
I suspect that he started this website because his antivax nonsense was getting too ridiculous for his overlords at the Financial Post (who still just loooove articles denying anthropogenic climate change). There have been much fewer antivax articles by the Professional Ignoramus in the FP this year compared to last.
I can but hope for some sort of turf squabble with the other Lawrence Solomon.
In the real world, yes. But, in Crosby’s Labyrinth, they won the arguments and even unmasked us for the paid pharma shills that we are.
The pro vaxx view is difficult to comprehend. Continual failure to prevent outbreaks, even when the mythical herd immunity is achieved. Next they will be telling us that ebola vaccine is the only way to save the world.
Can’t wait for the next installment – who is Mr Hills anyway?
Are you sure the Disney outbreak wasn’t fielded by the marketing company that did the Sony Kim Yung scam – or maybe it was Mr Dear and Offit ? I think we should be told
Ren looks more like a burger shill, do you think he could get a test tube up im?
“Believe it or not, they seemed to have actually learned that they will be corrected and schooled, having their common urban legends up-ended and their pseudo-science ridiculed publicly. This is not good for their images,” Denice the naughty
Not really, one often sees dog dirt and tries to avoid it. Deliberately standing in it is a bit weird. It is eminently funny to drift by here and see the same revolving door of science denial and religious vaccine fervor, but after a while the Narads and Her Dictors of this world become stunningly dull.
There is a whole wide world out there that beckons one away from poo poo corner. As we are all finding out the experts and ‘well trained’ are all fuckwits extraordinaire.
But it wasn’t reached, Johnny. Even if the country as a whole reaches herd immunity, non-vaxxers tend to cluster with the result that there are pockets that fall below herd immunity levels.
This has been explained before. Are you really too stupid to comprehend?
Johnny, can you remind me, what did they relabel smallpox as? Or was there some other reason it doesn’t seem to be around anymore?
Phildo! Slow morning sobering up over on Stanford-le-Hope? I could have told you that nearly anyone could see through an attempt to pass off a little tremulous, perspiring slap & tickle as “Classical Osteopathy” even if billed as “Dr. Pop Sucket’s Early-Bird Special.”
How’s the qi-based grooming side of the scam coming along? You should send your better half around sometime, as I think you can be a bit too… yin sometimes, if you get my drift.
“But it wasn’t reached, Johnny. Even if the country as a whole reaches herd immunity, non-vaxxers tend to cluster with the result that there are pockets that fall below herd immunity levels.
This has been explained before. Are you really too stupid to comprehend?” Julian FW
Jools my dear boy. Germany has 95% MMR uptake which is the mythical herd no. and that is where the only measles death occurred and that child had been vaccinated with MMR so that is a double vaccine failure. What about vaccine failure do you not understand?
Sorry Narad, I am not and never have been Mr Hill. Why don’t you email him and ask. Meanwhile back at poo poo corner eoor was still…………………
Remember the latest vaccine hype started in Disney, if that isn’t taking the piss…………………
Wasn’t it whooping cough last year. The CDC told us ‘ we don’t understand it, we have the highest uptake ever of whooping cough vaccine at the same time as the highest number of cases ever. The more one scratches below the marketing hype the more the holes appear.
What is it you actually believe here, market shares or bodies?
Come on Ren, how many burgers a day are you?
Johnny, stop being a God-Damned liar.
The child was NOT vaccinated. This has been pointed out to you before. Repeating the same damned lie won’t make it true no matter how often you say it.
how many burgers a day are you?
Philip Hills is not one to talk.
Good heavens there are two? What happens if they meet? Is there an annihilation?
Actually just checked and the research director of the Consumer Policy Institute and the Managing Director of Energy Probe Research Foundation seem to be the same individual.
“Germany has 95% MMR uptake which is the mythical herd no. and that is where the only measles death occurred”
Even if Germany overall had that number it wouldn’t mean there’s herd immunity everywhere. However, this is a lie anyway, Germany has an MMR rate of less than 90 percent. There’s lots of unvaccinated adults, routine Vaccinations didn’t start until the 70s. Even among children just starting school it’s only 92 percent who have had both shots.
What happens if they meet? Is there an annihilation?
Well up above the tropostrata
There is a region stark and stellar
Where, on a streak of anti-matter
Lived Dr. Edward Anti-Teller.
@ Johnny the troll
The “only”?
We had three deaths from measles in France 4 years ago. A few other deaths from measles happened in Europe.
One could quibble as well about the level of vaccination in Germany. Anyway, they add more than 500 cases of measles since October just in Germany. Next to the 170 cases around Disneyland, one would say the outbreak is a bit more serious.
Eh, all the concern trolls who were castigating Orac for being insensitive over Jess Ainscough death, where are you now? Child deaths don’t matter to you?
Yes. But non-vaxxers tend to cluster with the result that there are pockets that fall below herd immunity levels.
This has been explained before. Are you really too stupid to comprehend?
It’s not the only measles death.
No, he hadn’t.
Holding a false fixed belief that doesn’t change when you’re presented with evidence that disproves it is diagnosably delusional, incidentally.
Or it can be. It kind of depends on the prevalent cultural beliefs in your immediate milieu.
No, it’s half fantasy and half stupidity.
It’s also just disgusting that you’re telling jerk-off lies about that poor child.
…
But it’s distressing, too. It must be terrible to feel that weak, scared and angry. You have my sympathies.
ann,
Living just a few miles away from Mr. Hills’ clinic*, I think I can safely say I’m familiar with the prevalent cultural beliefs in his immediate milieu. His bizarre ideas and casual relationship with the truth are not typical, thankfully. I have never met an antivaxxer in real life, to the best of my knowledge. I did have a discussion with the father of a child with autism a few years ago, but he was firmly of the opinion that the whole MMR-autism thing was nonsense.
* I suppose it’s possible that Johnny has picked up the same misspellings, gross errors and odd terminology that Mr. Hills uses, but I’m 95% certain they are one and the same person, however much Johnny denies it.
^ A discussion about vaccines, I should be clear. I know a few people with autistic children but the subject of vaccines has never come up.
“Philip Hills, Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex, as usual, you’re so fυcking stupid that you can’t even be bothered to get the contents of your anal sacs properly congealed before repeatedly carpet-scooting the same material all over the place.”
Made. My. Day. Ruined my new suit.
The recent history shows that mass vaccination is working to limit the spread of disease. Only 145 cases of measles were traceable to this incident. Based on history and on examples in countries that don’t vaccination this is fewer than would be expected.
Herd immunity doesn’t mean that people who aren’t immunized are somehow magically made immune. It means that the spread of the disease will be limited rather than going through the entire population.
Johnny, a few uncomfortable facts for you:
1) The final eradication of smallpox bears a direct relation in time and geography to an intensive vaccination campaign.
2) Rinderpest is gone. It’s eradication bears a direct relation in time and geography to an intensive vaccination campaign.
3) The only places in the world where poliomyelitis is still found just happen to be places where vaccination teams are being threatened or killed.
One of these might just barely be due to coincidence. Barely. But the odds of all three being coincidental? Not hardly.
I’m 95% certain they are one and the same person, however much Johnny denies it.
“Johnny”‘s current claims of absolute ignorance about this “Philip Hills” would be more convincing if he had not, in an earlier thread, copped to familiarity with Hills’ osteopathy site (while still claiming to be a different person).
“Stay classy Bob.”
I hate just picking up on one sentence in a long article (cough, I’m wordy????), but I think we should use that on every response to Bob’s nonsense.
Dr. Offit’s class in his left pinky toe is probably more than Dr. Bob.
Phildo, if you press your luck, I might just ask Mrs. Hills.
That loon John “Whale.to” Scudamore has a rather splendid rant on JB Handley’s latest brain fart…
http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/03/is-there-a-way-out-of-the-autism-epidemic.html?cid=6a00d8357f3f2969e201b7c7656b3b970b#comment-6a00d8357f3f2969e201b7c7656b3b970b
I think he’s stepped even further into pixie territory…
Rebecca Fisher,
Good grief. Now there’s a truly unashamed antivaxxer (none of that half-assed “pro-safe vaccines” nonsense):
Of course it could John, of course it could.
I love the way the other AoA denizens politely ignore this deranged incursion.
I also like how Olmsted’s article is about a Portland-based pediatrician who, “claims there are zero cases of Autism” in his practice thanks to a modified vaccination schedule. It took me a few seconds to find this article which states:
I don’t think “no new cases of autism” is quite the same as “zero cases of Autism”, but conflating incidence and prevalence is as natural as breathing to AoA. Thompson, by the way, has close to a full antivaxx bingo card. He has somehow managed to swallow the nonsense about aluminum in vaccines, quoting the daily limit for IV feeds and claiming that some vaccines exceed this limit, while not noticing that vaccines are not given every day for weeks or months, that they are not given IV and that blood aluminum levels post vaccination are an order of magnitude lower than those associated with adverse neurological effects.
Give them some time. (I recall when MDC banned links to the Flying Dolphin.)
It is cute that Gus The Fuss chimes in to imply that he has exactly one friend.
Note Scudamore’s reliance upon Lord of the Rings. (towards the end of comment)
Take a peek at Stagliano’s post ( today) : she writes to a state representative about her objections to ending the religious exemption using a Harry Potter reference and signs it *Strega* **
** witch in Italian. She also illustrated it with a photo and quote from the HP films but I doubt that she included it along with the letter.
Hey Ann, the child that died in Germany had been vaccinated. I know that shafts your appeal to emotion but there you go a fact is a fact. herd immunity is a Disney concept – unachievable and bollocks when it arrives. This is like the flat earth society here, no vaccine can ever fail, only the patient’s response. That old chestnut that we are all supposed to vaccinate to save the few immunocompromised is neatly scotched here. But I can already hear calls to ‘debunk’ cos your priests are calling
http://fearlessparent.org/what-about-the-immunocompromised/#.VQB9Vp_Znv0.twitter
“he final eradication of smallpox bears a direct relation in time and geography to an intensive vaccination campaign.” oldest vaccine chestnut there is Rocky, I suppose if you keep saying it somehow it sticks somewhere.
“The only places in the world where poliomyelitis is still found just happen to be places where vaccination teams are being threatened or killed.” Rocky chestnut
Rocky it isn’t called polio anymore, not in India, now it is called Bill gates variant polio or NPFP. You need to come up to speed with septic folklore and stop posting anecdotes.
I think I was right about Ren, is he ok?
Clusters, not the vaccine but the process, wrong strain, patient had genetic blah, primary failure, secondary fallacy, no herd, pockets of deniers, sounds like a banking strategy for optimum product success boys.
Oh and there is Disney, nice story there. So if flu vaccine is 3% successful and a placebo is generally accepted to be 20% of success results is it ethical to vaccinate anyone for flu? Did you see the documentaries about the 800 kids with narcolepsy after the flu jab? Where is the logic for flu vaccine safety there?
Vaccination – always an excuse
Did you fail to see the ridicule heaped upon you for asserting “as reported in the UK hundreds of cases of narcolepsy in kids,” Philip Hills, Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex?
Johnny,
Not against measles he wasn’t, according to the Berlin Health Minister:
If you are so sure you are right, why do you have to lie all the time?
Hey Ann, the child that died in Germany had been vaccinated.
Why do you keep repeating this lie?
Johnny,
According to Cochrane, in this review of controlled randomized clinical trials that included over 70,000 people:
So on average the vaccine reduces the risk of laboratory-confirmed influenza by more than 50%, which is why I will continue to get it annually. Placebos have zero effect on laboratory-confirmed influenza, by the way.
From focus.de:
Wie sich der Junge in Berlin angesteckt hat, war zunächst nicht bekannt. “Das Kind war geimpft, aber nicht gegen Masern”, sagte Czaja. Es hatte keine chronischen Vorerkrankungen.
a placebo is generally accepted to be 20% of success results
I wonder whose butt that little factoid was pulled out of. It is a good thing for everyone that osteopaths aren’t running clinical trials.
If you are so sure you are right, why do you have to lie all the time?
He seems to be an adherent of Bellman Logic. For the last three years Philip has been repeating his claim that ‘polio is now called Bill gates variant polio or NPFP’, in the hope that vehement asseverations will make it so. Sadly, the term has failed to catch on despite his efforts… the search engine of one’s choice indicates that 0.0000 people have ever used it other than himself.
He shakes his little scrubber at reality.
“…the victim yells with hysterical paranoia… shaking his little scrubber…”
He is however so stupid that he can’t figure out the difference from VDPV (impressively also responding to one of the u######## bots):
So it’s homeopathic, then, and quite powerful.
He wasn’t vaccinated against measles, which is the disease that killed him, as your phrasing ^^there shows you know perfectly f-ing well.
Sorry to cut you off mid-sentence, btw.
The weak, soulless hypocrisy of what you were saying was making me kind of impatient, I guess.
@hdb #105:
“He shakes his little scrubber at reality.”
Bloom County FTW!!! *faxing over 1 quality internets* : – )
Conflating the success rate among people catching the flu versus the whole population, I see.
Annoying troll is annoying.
I hope some Revenue inspector is reading this thread and decides to go investigate Philip Hills’ little venture.
And now there is. It is ironic in the extreme, and the commentariat is swinging for the fences.
flu vaccine – fail
measles herd immunity – fail
whooping cough fail all round
Pro vaxx view – Disney fantasy – again
It is rather interesting that the septic view on vaccination is a bit like the creationist view on evolution. Wake up and smell the formaldehyde.
Johnny is so funny – perhaps you should learn some basic biology first…..formaldehyde is a nature byproduct of your own cellular metabolism – you (and babies) have more of it circulating in your system right now than in all vaccines you’d get, combined.
Because this is probably the most apropos current thread:
Spring is icumen in and anti-vax juices are a-flowing, as I learned recently-
– TMR decries how Facebook and g–gle interfere with their messaging so they are migrating to MeWe and they already have 1000 members.
– the new faux documentary, Trace Amounts, will be shown at New York University Law School ( Mary Holland works there) in 4 days and only 67 seats are sold despite its hard sell at TMR and other places.
-AutismOne 2015 appears to have new leaders aplenty:
Barry Segal and Brian Hooker of Focus Autism, I mean, Focus for Health
-TMR ( Goes, Spencer, MacNeil, Conroy, Davenhill and Marijuana activist, Thalia Segelink)
– Fearless Parent ( Habakus, Brogan, Palevsky, Sayer Ji)
Seneff, Ruggiero and Mikovits will spout their swill alongside veterans, Andy, Bradstreet, Krigsman y mucho mas.
I don’t see much from AoA or Jake. I wonder why?
Hi Laurence, so that is why aspartame is in Coke. If it heats up a bit it turns to formaldehyde which is so convenient. Isn’t that great, a popular urban poison actually turns out to be really nutritious. I suppose that goes for mercury in a vaccine – more than 50 parts per million is classified now as toxic waste but in a vaccine it is completely safe – well according to Disney science that is.
Vaccination is based on the medical urban myth that promoting specific anti body production protects us from disease. But if only 2% of our immunity is acquired immunity according to the Pasteur institute and the rest of our immune function is non specific ie fever, D and V and sweating. Why is it regular doctors spend so much time suppressing our immune systems in the name of therapeutics?
Gosh there is so much useful straw on this site, enough for a very large bonfire.
How many vaccine failures have there been or was that just a rebrand, recall, rebok? You decide
johnny and his sock puppets, why do you lie?
I’m curious why johnny keeps posting the same stuff over and over. I would get bored of that.
Aspartame is simply a trade name for the molecule aspartyl-phenylalanine methyl ester. On ingestion it metabolizes to form aspartate, phenylalanine and methanol in a 4:5:1 ratio. The methanol is then rapidly converted to fomaldehyde, which is oxidized to produce formic acid.
But methanol is present in any food stuffs capable of fermenting, including all fruit juices. Drinking 8oz of orange juice will expose you to about 29mg of methanol, which is more methanol than you would be exposed to drinking a single12oz diet soda sweetened with aspartame (about 18 mg).
So if you’re not afraid of unsweetened apple juice, you’ve no rational reason to be afraid of diet soft drinks sweetened using aspartame.
Of course, no one can help you deal with your irrational fears…
I’d normally be impressed by someone managing to take Wassung’s blunder and make it even dumber, but this is, after all, Philip Hills, Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex, we’re talking about.
Quick, Phildo, find the correct paper. It’s not in that press release, if you can even find that.
Meanwhile as the red smoke thins over vaccine land and avoidance of discussion over whether or not our lord vaccine is full of bull may or may not be, somehow I am still being called someone I am not – how your detective work arrived at that conclusion is beyond me. I am closer to home than any of you will ever fathom or realise.
Keep up the vaccine fallacy, it’s working beautifully. So how many of you here have fallen for the vaccine fallacy?
“somehow I am still being called someone I am not ”
Yes, you are a liar. Things you have posted are lies, therefore you are a liar.
I am constantly amazed that anti-vax people can get even dumber over time……
I’ll be happy to entertain such a discussion just as soon as you provide to actual evidence suggesting any vaccine on the CDC’s recomended childhood vaccination schedule is more dangerous than the infectious disease it protects against.
Which of course means I doubt we’ll be having that conversation anytime soon…
You don’t seem particularly close to documenting this yet, Phildo:
Is there some problem?
We are not the one avoiding discussion here, dude. There are plenty of links, counterarguments and explanations upthread for the casual observer.
And while you are here doing nothing but trying to irate us, people are out here saving lives with vaccines.
————————
Recently, I was made aware of the Unicef project Eliminate.
It was in the context of a charity concert by some local pop/folk music band with the motto “come see us and save 10 children’s life”.
The idea is to eliminate tetanos, especially among neonates.
I’m heading for this Unicef website right now to give a few bucks. Anyone reading this thread, please have a look by yourself at this project and decide if you feel like donating, too.
Whoops
I’m curious why johnny keeps posting the same stuff over and over. I would get bored of that.
Dog : vomit :: Philip Hills : bullsh1t.
Johnny Mop, you say ” it isn’t called polio anymore, not in India, now it is called Bill gates variant polio or NPFP”
Sources?
You probably have an impression of India that comes from watching 1930s movies on late-night TV in your flat above your mother’s garage.
In present day India, not to mention in the real world, it would be a lot harder than you seem to think to hide even one case of polio. Indian turns out some of the best and most competent health professionals in the world. There is no way to hide an outbreak for long.
Meanwhile, you can’t refute the facts I stated. You don’t touch on the elimination of smallpox. The last cases came from Somalia and none have occurred since the vaccination drive of the 1970s. Somalia certainly hasn’t improved its standard of living, yet smallpox hasn’t come roaring back. I’d love to hear your undoubtedly ludicrous take on the elimination of rinderpest. Better nutrition? Improved sanitation? Better supportive care?
By the way, I am Old Rockin’ Dave, not “Rocky”. What’s “rocky” here is your understanding of science.
Philip Hills, Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex (PDF), is attempting – when he can avoid confusing with something else entirely – to advance the utterly brain-dead claim that the massive surveillance for acute flaccid paralyis required to monitor the state of a polio eradication program somehow means that all the cases shown not to be due to either wild-type or vaccine-strain poliovirus are therefore due to polio vaccination.
Hey, Phildo, what’s the amortization of the intangible property for? A sale-and-leaseback arrangement? It’s more than 4% of $30,000 per annum, and I can scarcely imagine what sort of intellectual property you might have acquired or developed for that amount back in 2007 anyway.
125: “I am constantly amazed that anti-vax people can get even dumber over time……”
Dumbosity is a constant. As the number of anti-vaxxers declines the average dumbosity must increase. This can be interpreted as a positive development.
What is Narad smoking, can I have some of that – I have always wondered if St Pepper really saw pink elephants.
Have you figured out your “source” for the 98% bit yet, Phildo? Trust me, it’s hilarious.
Hey Nurdrad, it was the Pasteur institute. I know it is hilarious, all that money being spent on magik vaccine and only 2% of it could ever be any use at all. Bit like fairy dust, lovely idea but – come on, we need a bit more than that.
Your obsession with me being someone called Mr Hill is also hilarious, that is sure some wacky backy you are on there, hilarious.
Cite the actual statement, Phildo. Have you just been regurgitating this exact statement – down to the comical misunderstanding of what the innate immune system does and the mangling of the “correct” talking point – for so long that you’ve forgotten which public toilet you found it floating in?
In scientific and medical controversies, if you have the data and evidence, you use it. Since the antivaccine viewpoint is not a medical viewpoint and is not supported by science. <~~~~false there is a lot of scinece. How about the emerging science on injected AL clearly orac missed this science in his research. Nearly 5000 mcgs are absorbed into the body by 18 months old. And not 1 single long term study to show its safety? Quackery pseudoscience
Intramuscular injection of alum-containing vaccine was associated with the appearance of aluminum deposits in distant organs, such as spleen and brain where they were still detected one year after injection. Both fluorescent materials injected into muscle translocated to draining lymph nodes (DLNs) and thereafter were detected associated with phagocytes in blood and spleen. Particles linearly accumulated in the brain up to the six-month endpoint; they were first found in perivascular CD11b+ cells and then in microglia and other neural cells.
Despite it's environmental abundance, Al is not an essential element for living organisms, and no enzymatic reaction requires Al. Al is reported to influence more than 200 biologically important reactions and to cause various adverse effects on the mammalian central nervous system (CNS) (Table 1). These include crucial reactions for brain development such as the axonal transport, neurotransmitter synthesis, synaptic transmission, phosphorylation or dephosphorylation of proteins, protein degradation, gene expression, and inflammatory responses.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3056430/
Theo, that paper is four years old. Secondly, the emotive and inaccurate language in the abstract turned me off immediately.
Theo,
If we assume an average body weight of 33 kilograms (15 pounds) between birth and 18 months, a child will absorb about 15 mcgs aluminum per day from food, water and air. That’s about 8,200 mcgs in total. The vast majority of this is easily and rapidly excreted in the urine, just as the vast majority of the 5,000 mcgs aluminum from vaccines is excreted. Some is deposited in bone and other parts of the body, but there is no evidence that such tiny amounts has any adverse effects on health.
We do not see aluminum toxicity unless blood levels exceed and are maintained at levels of greater than 60 µg/L for long periods, yet blood aluminum after vaccination increases so slightly it is difficult to measure it, and does not exceed 6 µg/L, much less 60 µg/L, even transiently because our kidneys are very effective at excreting it. Elevated blood levels only occur if we are exposed to regular large doses and we are unable to excrete it effectively. The tiny amounts from vaccines are not enough to cause toxicity even in those with impaired kidney function.
^ Only “and” was supposed to be bold.
Oh, but there are two: The cited one – highlighting “the emerging science on injected AL,” mind you – is a review of the in vitro literature that has nothing to do with injected anything. The first paragraph, quoted in a familiar,* sloppy fashion, is PMID 23557144.
Of course, the whole thing is a cut and paste of an Iliya comment from a thread in which Philip Hills’s preceding sock was making an ass out of itself.**
* With an unpunctuated, dumb, two-word transition.
** With unpunctuated, dumb, two-word transitions.
There seems to be this misunderstanding between ingested vs injected AL. When you ingest it only a small fraction is actually ABSORBED. It goes through the gut and is cleared by the body and kidneys but when you inject it bypassing normal metabolic processes it gets 100% absorbed. This edjuvent is designed to hold the antigen in place so that immunity lasts over time. But the pro vax crowd overlooks biological studies like this and only cites epidemiological studies that are easily manipulated. Kreb can you cite a study on injected AL? Showing it clears the body as you say? This is just 1 of my issues with vaccination. In addition there are studies linking adjuvemts to auto immune diseases. We are tricking the immune system over and over. Why is it a stretch to think it could confuse the immune system and make the immune system attacking itself? It’s not a stretch actually it’s happening in millions of people
Cite these studies, please.
How do people think stuff absorbed by the intestines gets to the kidneys or liver?
Because it gets there through the blood and I don’t understand how the kidneys and liver could tell if a molecule got into the blood from being absorbed vs got in the blood from being injected. It isn’t like your arm blood never gets mixed into the rest of the blood.
I can understand an adjuvent helping to alert the immune system so it thinks something is going on so it goes looking for things, but how does it hold things in place? I mean the immune system finds moving targets for other things?
Confusedly yours.
Vaccines are injected into the muscle not the veins again totally different.
Plus if you look at table 1 of the review kreb cited notice the absorption of AL from source-vaccine. 100 %
from that article here pg 166
As noted above, injection of 26Al increased bone 26Al ∂100 times more than brain, yet steady-state bone Al concentration is
… I suppose that this is as good a thread as any….
I uncautiously traipsed over to the Bolen Report and the lunacy continues full bore:
he’s written a great deal over the past month or so.
Pharma companies are vampires and foreigners- it’s time to take action.
I suppose that the measles outbreak and legislative sequelae are driving him even madder than he already is.
Theo,
True, which is why I referred to absorbed aluminum. There is also a misunderstanding about the difference between IV injections and IM injections that you seem to be suffering from yourself.
It may get absorbed 100% but it takes weeks or months. Did you look at the paper I linked to? The injected aluminum is in the form of a poorly soluble salt that sits at the injection site and is slowly absorbed into the blood in daily amounts a little lower than those absorbed from food i.e. 0.07–0.4 µg/kg/day. Why would the small amounts absorbed from a vaccine, i.e. 0.08–0.5 µg/kg/day, be treated any differently by the body than the very similar amounts absorbed from food?
You need to look at the body of literature about the toxicokinetics of aluminum to get a real idea of what is going on. However, there are a number of studies that support what I have written. This one shows that intramuscular injections of aluminum salts are slowly absorbed in rabbits, which have very similar muscles to humans. This study in preterm infants found no significant change in levels of urinary or serum aluminum after vaccination i.e. serum aluminum levels remained within the normal rage of up to 6 µg/L. We know from infants that have been fed intravenously for weeks or months that if their serum aluminum levels do not exceed 60 µg/L they suffer no ill effects.
^”normal range”, not “rage”, probably obviously
Vaccines are injected into the muscle not the veins again totally different.
Plus if you look at table 1 of the review kreb cited notice the absorption of AL from sources. vaccine. 100 %
Also from that article here pg 166
As noted above, injection of 26Al increased bone 26Al ∂100 times more than brain, yet steady-state bone Al concentration is
Theo,
Your last comment makes little sense to me. Hopefully my last comment clarifies things a bit. Isn’t it better that vanishingly tiny amounts of aluminum ends up in the bones rather than the brain?
Myostbwas cut off for some reason
Vaccines are injected into the muscle not the veins again totally different.
Plus if you look at table 1 of the review kreb cited notice the absorption of AL from sources. vaccine. 100 %
Also from that article here pg 166
As noted above, injection of 26Al increased bone 26Al ∂100 times more than brain, yet steady-state bone Al concentration is
Keeps doing it
Al binds preferentially to bone before any other tissue. The brain is last on the list of ‘places where sorbed/IM Al will end up’.
An adjuvant will remain in the muscle tissue where injected as it slowly diffuses into the interstitial water and/or bloodstream, where it will be treated no differently than the Al compounds sorbed through the GI tract from our food. It’ll be filtered out by the kidneys and then excreted in our urine.
The bottom line is that there is disagreement on AL in the scientific community and there shouldn’t be especially when it come to our babies.
Nanomaterials can be transported by monocyte-lineage cells to DLNs, blood and spleen, and, similarly to HIV, may use CCL2-dependent mechanisms to penetrate the brain. This occurs at a very low rate in normal conditions explaining good overall tolerance of alum despite its strong neurotoxic potential. However, continuously escalating doses of this poorly biodegradable adjuvant in the population may become insidiously unsafe, especially in the case of overimmunization or immature/altered blood brain barrier or high constitutive CCL-2 production.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=23557144
Denice Walter: Bolen is trying to gain favor with the big donors (Claire Dwoskin, Barry Segal and others), who are funding Wakefield and Hooker and their “research”.
Check out mainstream blogs where the usual suspects carpet bomb the Comments section… none of them link to Bolen’s blog.
FTFY.
Theo: ” This is just 1 of my issues with vaccination.”
I have a feeling we will hear about the other ones in due course.
Meantime, can you explain your first stating (correctly) that aluminum is ubiquitous in the enviroment and your concern about minute amounts of it being used as a vaccine adjuvant? How do you reconcile its commonality in the human body from a variety of sources, with dire warnings about it only when it’s used in a vaccine?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine-associated_sarcoma#History
@ lilady:
I know that he isn’t much of an influence but the minions seem to love him- but not in a good way.
-btw- take a peek at the AutismOne 2015 speakers list/ key notes this year. Looks like AoA has split, Barry’s in, TMR and Fearless Parent as well. Oy!
If it’s being excreted by the kidneys, it was by definition absorbed.
More science. 2015
We previously showed that poorly biodegradable aluminum-coated particles injected into muscle are promptly phagocytosed in muscle and the draining lymph nodes, and can disseminate within phagocytic cells throughout the body and slowly accumulate in brain. This strongly suggests that long-term adjuvant biopersistence within phagocytic cells is a prerequisite for slow brain translocation and delayed neurotoxicity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25699008
No, Theo – the bottom line is there’s a small subsect of scientists who have crank theories about Al being the root of all evils and illnesses in the world, and have no evidence to support their accusations.
Case in point: your study uses ‘science’ by Schoenfield – who pretty much blames everything on Al adjuvants.
Narad how about you add some value with a relevent study showing exactly what your stating. Kreb cited 15 babies and some rabbits not very convincing compared to the 3 studies I showed.
Here us the study showing ASIA autoimmune diseases
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20708902
Thanks Theo.
You proved my point about Shoenfeld. ASIA is his one-trick pony.
It’s always the adjuvant (vaccine) – it’s never not.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0896841115000372
Darwy this is how science works it starts with 1 person then a small group and it eventually builds a consensous. Just like what happened with Mercury. Furthermore there isn’t another good alternative to AL that’s why there are very few studies. Meantime for independent thinking parents that don’t follow the heard and trust the establishment. Vaccines are far more dangerous than we are being told. There is not 1 long term study on the current schedule. That is called experimenting with your baby. No thanks. So please don’t tell the anti-vax crowd that there’s no science. That’s patently false. There is a lot of science. It’s being purposely ignored to preserve and advance the immunization schedule.
More science. 2015
Theo links to
— two papers from Gherardi’s band of grifters, looking for the cause of a condition (macrophagic myofasciitis) which no-one outside his group has ever observed; and
— an illiterate, apostrophe-challenged “review” squeezed out through a Hindawi journal as if to certify that it contains no value but the authors needed a publication for their careers.
I assume that these are currently in high rotation at VaxTruth and the other vaccine red-pill websites.
Perhaps Theo is under a geis such that spelling ‘adjuvant’ correctly would rob him of 50% of his strength.
Anti-vaxers never seem to understand that being able to find a paper or two that supports their position is not good enough. Lots of bad papers get published in one journal or another. Hell, even papers that are technically well done can end up being wrong. Papers cannot be taken in isolation. There is a body of literature that has to also be considered. It is clear, from the review published this month, that far more research has occurred on this topic, beyond the initial paper, and that work has not supported it.
Theo,
The three ‘studies’ you showed were:
1. PMC3616851 Found that aluminum injected into mice bred to have an impaired blood brain barrier makes its way to the brain.
2. PMC4318414 Not a study, a speculative article about alum particles hitch-hiking a ride to the brain in leucocytes, something that has not, to my knowledge, been confirmed by reputable researchers.
3.PMID: 20708902 Not a study, another speculative article claiming that aluminum adjuvants cause a syndrome they call ‘Autoimmune (Auto-inflammatory) Syndrome Induced by Adjuvants’ that is extremely rare if it exists at all, which is debatable.
Do you now understand that while absorption of intramuscularly injected aluminum adjuvants may be 100% it takes several weeks or even months, so aluminum trickles very slowly into the blood and is quickly excreted without elevating blood levels?
15 babies does not conclusivly prove anything. Do you have anything more comprehensive? Or should we just trust authority? And take their word for it. And any scientist mentioning a peep about AL lodging in body tissue is enough evidence for pause looks like we have some science deniers here?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25692535
Sorry Theo, but the work of Shoenfeld and his insular group do not constitute a consensus, nor does it overthrow the decades of evidence of aluminum adjuvant safety.
…Excepting cats.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine-associated_sarcoma
AL lodging in body tissue
I certainly hope that AL adjuvants lodge in body tissue; they couldn’t do much adjuvanting if they washed out the day after the injection.
Theo then links to an article which could easily have been titled “Aluminium hydroxide adjuvants are even great; how can we make them even better?”, under the impression that it is the best anti-adjuvant evidence that the Aluminati can muster. Perhaps there is some reading-comprehension issue.
Why is AL, Alabama, lodging in body tissue, anyway?
Or maybe we’re discussing Al, alumin[i]um.
the work of Shoenfeld and his insular group do not constitute a consensus
Shenfeld jettisoned his credibility when he opted to climb aboard with grifters and scammers:
“[The Greater Good] was vetted by Dr. Lawrence D. Rosen, MD, FAAP and Dr. Yehuda Shoenfeld, MD, FRCP for scientific and medical accuracy.”
Of course that little commission did earn him an invitation to the 2013 Jamaica anti-vax junket to talk about his ASIA theory, which had previously been confined to the pages of his own “Journal of Autoimmunity”.
The Gazoogle informs me that his first book was promoting a crank diet. More recently he has edited “New Trends in Astrodynamics and Applications”.
Dude’s a well-funded crank. Still a crank.
“the mechanism of how aluminum hydroxide-based adjuvants exert their beneficial effects is still not fully understood”. That was the point in the link that stands out. We have been using this adjuvant for decades and we really don’t understand it? Wtf so it could cause cancers or maybe mutate genes? Cause learning disabilities & Brain damage? The sad fact is we don’t know what aluminum is doing besides creating an immune response. That’s quackery and pseudoscience especially when so many babies are getting injected with this garbage. My child won’t be finding out that’s for sure.
I will be following a wholistic nutritionsl model of care the other option the pro vax mafia won’t tell you about
I meant lodging into organs
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25692535
What! And no mention of Shaw & Tomljenovic?
Oh. Maybe I should be quiet.
No mention of Sin Hang Lee’s SCIRP publications either! Imagine my disappoint.
Speaking of Sin Hang Lee, a glimpse at his ResearchGate portfolio reveals that he has not gone away, but has switched to pimping his unique and proprietary PCR techniques through different mockademic vanity presses — two from MPDI (“Cancer [Basel]” and “International Journal of Molecular Sciences”) and one from Bentham (“Current Medicinal Chemistry”). The SCIRP papers have disappeared from his CV, as if they are somehow embarrassing.
But he’s paying for press releases to advertise his paid-to-publish papers so they must be legit.
I always knew Alabama was a toxin….
‘I meant lodging into organs”
You’ll find the most spacious accommodations are in the colon. And after a few rounds of toxin cleansing, the air is almost breathable.
Apparently bias only exists with scientists who question vaccine safety? Ok sure buddy wink wink. Just be honest with yourselves your science deniers Plain and simple. The only science you have are epidemiological studies. The more important biological studies on vaccines are extremely short in nature. And the 1 kreb cited showed this………As noted above, injection of 26Al increased bone 26Al ∂100 times more than brain, yet steady-state bone Al concentration is >100 times that of brain. This suggests Al clearance from bone is more rapid than from brain, which is reasonable considering bone turnover and lack of neurone turnover. The elimination t1/2 of Al from human brain is predicted to be very long. This is concluded from the t1/2 of Al in the tibia of rats, 38–173 days (Greger & Sutherland 1997), com- pared to> 100 days in brain, above, and a human 26Al t1/2 of 7 years, above, which is believed to be due to redistri- bution of Al out of bone. wait so aluminum goes to the bone first and then it gets cycled to the brain? 7 years this metal is in the body?
AL lodging in body tissue
I meant lodging into organs
I would dearly like to learn how a chemical can lodge in the body without being present in an organ somewhere.
Ok sure buddy wink wink.
Know what I mean? Know what I mean? Nudge, nudge. Wink wink. Say no more!
@Tim – on the internet nobody knows you’re a cat.
Don’t forget the large body of evidence I referred to earlier, which includes in vitro, animal and human studies as well as epidemiological evidence. This human health assessment of aluminum refers to about 1,300 papers on the subject, which should keep you busy for a while.
@Tim – on the internet nobody knows you’re a cat.
Everyone suspects it, though. The Internet is made of cats.
The speculation that adjuvants are involved in feline sarcoma is dated to 2004 in that Whackyweedia entry. I am intrigued. Are there any updates on that line of research?
brook, herr doktor bimler; I stand convicted. Thx for outting me, heroes.
kittens, babies, boobies:
Shame on you, Herr Doktor – Theo is trying to teach us how to do science.
#173 #183 Jess Ainscough had a rare sarcoma in her left arm-
(no way to prove is was not related to earlier vaccination sites)
That’s the point. No one will question the gospel of aluminum adjuvants. But it is definitely connected to myofasciitis- http://www.pubfacts.com/detail/16616846/AlOH3-adjuvanted-vaccine-induced-macrophagic-myofasciitis-in-rats-is-influenced-by-the-genetic-backg
Canarypox-vectored rabies vaccine, as I recall. Not sure about FeLK.
Strangely, this fairly recent entry in the antivaccine playbook seems to go right out the window on a regular basis when epidemiological assertions, no matter how half-assed, seem purty.
No way to prove that it wasn’t the result of pressure from a satchel either, or a pimple on her back that got infected, or…(you get the idea).
#187 Google it-
#187 http://www.humanesociety.org/animals/cats/tips/feline_vaccine_related_sarcoma.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20010978 “Exclusively, breastfed infants (in Brazil) receiving a full recommended schedule of immunizations showed an exceedingly high exposure of Al (225 to 1750 μg per dose) when compared with estimated levels absorbed from breast milk (2.0 μg). This study does not dispute the safety of vaccines but reinforces the need to study long-term effects of early exposure to neuro-toxic substances on the developing brain. Pragmatic vaccine safety needs to embrace conventional toxicology, addressing especial characteristics of unborn fetuses, neonates and infants exposed to low levels of aluminum, and ethylmercury traditionally.”
The study ken linked to in #195 is over four years old. In addition, it raises a lot of questions about methodology.
How was the exposure measured? How were the “estimated levels absorbed from breast milk” calculated? Did the researchers use controls? How good were the controls?
Long story short, this looks like very weak tea.
Jess Ainscough had a rare sarcoma in her left arm- (no way to prove is was not related to earlier vaccination sites)
Did she have vaccinations in her hand where the sarcoma first showed up? If not, feel free to take your sick exploitative fantasies and die in a fire.
Oh look, the Dorea study – which as Julian already pointed out, is methodically weak and not well written.
Not evidence of Al harm or toxicity.
Kreb can’t cite a single study in a medical journal like Jama or Nejm or the lancet or in pub med regarding aluminum adjuvant safety. He has to resort to world-aluminum.org referring to neary 800 pages? Give me a break. Plus the fact that you all initially citing ingested AL in your initial response clearly demonstrates your lack of understanding about aluminum. Then when researchers in 2015 #177 say that they don’t understand aluminum that is dismissed?
This is the way I see it if you want to inject vaccines into your children and follow modern medicine go for it. But stop trying to legislate the rest of us by eliminating personal belief exemptions. Like in California. We don’t want the government telling women whether or not they can have an abortion. well don’t tell parents whether or not they need to vaccinate their children. And please stop citing herd immunity as your reason for forcing the rest of us to inject chemicals into our kids. Herd immunity is a myth! Easily disproven
Why do you think whole foods is doing so well people are trying to avoid chemicals preservatives pesticides they want organic they don’t want the toxins in their bodies and they certainly don’t want them injected in their fucking kids. Leave us alone. Guess what? there’s a better way to build the immune system and make it strong it’s called nutrition! The power that made the baby is the same power that protects the baby. In addition there is compelling evidence that contracting measles as a child is beneficial as an adult. All you have to do is feed the human immune system the proper building blocks and it is extremely powerful more powerful then you’re being told.
And to answer orac question yes it’s an unamerican suppression of the facts not good reporting. Have we heard on cnn lately about the thousandsand & thousands of vaccine injured children and distraught parents? Did CNN accurately report that there’s a vaccine compensation program and that vaccine makers are completely immune from lawsuit? Hell no! CNN is beholden to its advertisers the drug companies. The entire debate stinks to high heaven and there is a ground swell of people who will not sit back and be spoon fed garbage from their pharmaceutically trained pediatricians.
Did anyone else hit Antivaxx Bingo after reading Theo’s latest fact-deprived rant?
Theo, did you bother to look at any of the1300 studies he was kind enough to provide a link for?
Or AdvoCare, whatever.
If there were, Cynthia Parker wouldn’t need to continually embarrass herself on this front.
What injuries do you believe those “thousands and & thousands of vaccine injured children ” suffer as the result of being vaccinated, and how has it been factually established that the injuries actually were caused by the vaccines they received? Be specific.
I trust we’re talking about ‘injuires’ other than autism spectrum disorders (which are not causally associated with vaccination) and they’ve been linked to vaccines by something other than a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy liberally seasoned with a bit of “What else could it have been?”
*sigh*
For the ten thousandth time, vaccines don’t make the immune system “stronger” in the way spinach makes Popeye stronger. Vaccines are target practice and nasty drill sergeant all-in-one.
I’m happy to learn that you have good meals, but that won’t replace actual hand-on experience.
It’s like saying, “there’s a better way to build your shooting skills than to spend time at the shooting range, it’s called nutrition”
I eat plenty of carrots, so I guess my eyes have all the vit A they need, but without much firearm experience I will still be a lousy shot.
And of course, nutrition was no use at all for the natives of Hawaii when they encountered measles.
Theo,
First you complain we haven’t provided you with enough evidence of safety, now you complain I have provided too much? If you had bothered to look you would know that those 1,000+ studies cited by world-aluminum.org are all published in reputable journals, many of them the journals you mention.
I would love to see you disprove an undeniable fact like herd immunity. If I have measles and everyone around me is immune, none of them will contract measles. That’s herd immunity – do go ahead and disprove that.
If you guarantee your unvaccinated disease-vector children won’t be infecting the immunocompromised, those who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons or those for whom vaccination isn’t effective, that’s a deal.
” contracting as a child is beneficial as an adult ”
Tell that to my brother Frank. Just make sure he’s got his hearing aid on, first.
Vaccine moderation rears its predictable head again!
“If you guarantee your unvaccinated disease-vector children won’t be infecting the immunocompromised, those who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons or those for whom vaccination isn’t effective, that’s a deal.” Kruk kux Klan
More vaccine mythology here. None of the vaccines are contraindicated for the cohort you are mentioning, that is an old urban myth that herd immunity protects the vulnerable. Certainly in Germany the kid that died had a chest condition so fat use the MMR was there, and he had had the MMR too.
So what exactly is your point and why do you use that stupid photo of a cat for an avatar?
What’s your vector Viktor? I am still not Mr Hill, however hard you try to convince yourself – I mean why would I be? We can all cut and paste, that doesn’t exactly identify anyone.
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
It’s disgusting that you keep proffering snake oil vaccines and pretending that they offer some kind of protection when the evidence keeps showing us it’s bullshit
I think that Narad and Chris are the same person, the quality of their posting gives it away.
Go on tell us
Johnny: Do you know what happened to smallpox? Or rhinderpest? Or polio in the US? Herd immunity happened. You cannot convince me herd immunity doesn’t exist anymore than you can convince me fire does not exist.
By the way, Johnny here demonstrates a fascinating feature of conspiracy theorists: An automatic assumption everything is an attempt to silence them. Everyone deals with moderation here. Perhaps the most extreme on this site was one crank who insisted all his posts were deleted before someone pointed out he had posted on another thread. He never returned after that.
Johnny has some problems with recognising animals. Failed in biology class? At least he seems to have problems with the differences between a fox and a cat.
Isn’t your ass getting pretty hot by now?
Johnny, you’ve been informed several times that the18 month old child in germany who died due to measles infection had not received MMR vacination.
Why do you keep lying?
Vaccine moderation rears its predictable head again!
Poor Phildo, trying to change the subject from your squirming unwillingness or inability to cough up your Pasteur Institute item. And with this? Just pitiful.
C’mon, tell everybody about the innate immune system – “fever, vomiting, diarrhoea, sweating.” It’d be fascinating to see the depth of understanding required of a classical osteopath.
Johnny:
It’s very strange, then, that in areas where herd immunity is reached and maintained, that children too young to be vaccinated and the immunosuppressed don’t get the diseases, isn’t it?
Like the fact that after mass vaccination programs are introduced the rates of the diseases vaccinated against fall off a cliff? And that when these vaccination programs break down (e.g. Syria, the former Soviet republics shortly after the breakup of the Soviet Union) the diseases make a resurgence?
Herd immunity exists. It works too.
Comment of mine in moderation.
Poor Johnny could shut us up by providing his “evidence” that the German toddler was vaccinated against the Measles…..
Ahhh, but once he offered evidence to support that point, he’d be expected to offer evidence to support the rest of his claims. Don’t want to set that precedent…
First of all vaccines are the holy grail of modern medicine. Let’s play the what if game shall we? What if vaccines were linked to learning disabilities autism ADHD auto immune disease like asthma allergies type 1 diabetes lupus, Crohn’s disease, multiple sclerosis, seizures, childhood cancer etc. let’s just say it were true.
There’s absolutely no way the FDA the CDC the AMA, U.S. Govt. U.S. Armed forces is going publicly implicate vaccines in any type of serious injury. Clearly there is no upside to it. When your child gets injured tough shit! You can go to the vaccine kangaroo court. And try your luck. 3 billion in paid out damages and counting
Trillion dollar industries are at stake! Trust on a global scale is at stake!
Read between the lines!
Now with regards to any of these diseases it’s pretty obvious something is impacting our children. What are the likely causes?
Malnourishment?
Pesticides?
Preservatives?
Chemicals?
Noxious fumes from the air?
Fluoridated water?
Vaccine adjuvants
Aluminum and Mercury accumulation?
Vaccine ingredients
Polysorbate 80, DNA fragments, attenuated viruses, bovine serum, formaldehyde etc….?
Immune system overstimulation by vaccine?
Genetics?
Hereditary?
Congenital?
Am I missing anything?
The most likely scenario is vaccine Injury. It has the most immediate effect of overwhelming the immune system damaging it and ultimately causing it to malfunction creating autoimmune disease. Sure some children handle it just fine but many do not. Now that makes logical sense. Sorry if that conclusion is shocking to you. There are coverups in every single industry. Yes even in the healthcare. Don’t be so naive! #CDCwhistleblower
They will aways say its safe and effective officially. And then put out 1 manipulated epidemiological study after another. never doing long term biological studies. or the dreaded vaccinated vs unvaccinated study . Push for mandatory vaccinations removing exemptions like they are attempting in 35 states as we speak. Threaten any scientist who dissents or censor independent scientific research linking them. If people found out that you dont need vaccines and as time went on you noticed your child was healthier the the unvaccinated that would be problematic. this all makes perfect sense. GET IT!
Seriously it would be total chaos. It would raise significant doubt in the efficacy of all vaccines and the faith and trust In the MYTH of modern medicine. So you can see why the government will never admit vaccines cause autism ever. Ever ever.
yours truly
theo the truth teller!
http://www.amazon.com/Science-Sale-Government-Corporations-Universities/dp/1626360715/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y
http://www.amazon.com/Science-Private-Interest-Corrupted-Biomedical/dp/0742543714/ref=pd_sim_b_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=16GPVFJ3E8E3BNSAD48C
Since Philip Hills, Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex, is obviously either too stupid find or too much of a chickenshіt to cop to his source, here we go:
The locus classicus is Keith Wassung, for example, here and, in variant form, here.
The latter version is quite amusing because of the cite that it gives:
The title rather plainly suggests that it isn’t the correct source….
…. which instead is this press release for the Reina et al. paper. Apparently, none of the halfwits who trot this one out have bothered to track down the original paper, which is this.
Yes, it’s all about Chagas disease. Amazingly, Phildo even omits the marginally useful bits of the press release and simply leaps to the conclusion that the adaptive immune system is only responsible for 2% of host defense, all the while drooling about vomiting, sweat, and diarrhea as being components of the innate system.
It would be a singular monument to incompetence if only Phildo didn’t feel compelled to peddle knockoffs from his FB page under his usual variety of asinine pseudonyms.
^^ “too stupid to find”
If I understand correctly, the story begins with a press release from the Pasteur Institute promoting the 2000 paper, and emphasising the earlier discovery (by other researchers) that “non-specific immune response” is a problem which needs to be suppressed in order to handle trypanosome infections.
Someone from Team Antivax argled and bargled the words of the press release, obtaining a distorted sentence (usefully diagnostic, in that anyone who cites it has clearly part of the human centipede and has not bothered to read the original press release):
Wassung further distorts that by inserting the fabricated sentence into the 2000 paper to which it is commentary. Because sloppiness and laziness.
Ha! Narad is too fast, and I am a slow typer.
Theo went full anti-vax, as was predicted up-thread….never go full anti-vax theo….
No, let’s not, because it’s not. What’s the point of a discussion based on a false premise?
@Theo
Take a big breath. You have time to insert some comma in your text, you know.
Do you have any idea how much diabete type 1 and childhood cancers are costing to the society?
Add the rest.
If governments had good reasons to suspect vaccines to cause all of this, vaccines would get the axe.
Tobacco is only a cause for pulmonary illnesses – cancer, emphysema, and a few related illnesses. It got the axe.
Asbestos is only a cause for some pulmonary diseases. It got the axe.
CFCs gases were only affecting the ozone layer. They got the axe.
Do you really believe that vaccines drain more cash than any of the above?
Speaking of “trying your luck,” how many pre-NVCIA lawsuits were ultimately successful?
It would kind of suck if what you’re implicitly advocating would dramatically worsen what you’re bitching about, now wouldn’t it?
^ Or you can go post-NCVIA if you want. Remember the thimerosal class actions? How did those work out for plaintiffs, Theo?
Funny how everyone was happy with the vaccine court for the first 15 years of its existence, until about 2001, when a whole synchronised raft of manufactured claims all took the #34 Omnibus to
Clapham JunctionNowhere. Then it became a “kangaroo court”.The antivax idiots usually claim that the vaccine court is rigged against claimants, or that the fact that it has awarded 3 billion dollars is proof that vaccines are extremely dangerous. Theo, though, surpasses them all, by making both claims at once, in this hilariously contradictory passage “When your child gets injured tough shit! You can go to the vaccine kangaroo court. And try your luck. 3 billion in paid out damages and counting” Brilliant.
@Thomas #235
You lucky dog, the antivaxxer idiots *I* get to argue with always claim both that the kangaroo court is stacked against the innocent victims AND that the payouts are proof positive that vaccines and that the government knows this AND that the government is covering up this knowledge.
So any two parts contradict the third, which doesn’t make any sense but these people are nothing if not enthusiastic and self righteous and oh so persistent. They seem to have discovered a veritable Fountain of Youth that keeps them forever yammering.
grrr…. that vaccines are dangerous…
I honestly don’t understand why anti-vaxxers have so much trouble understanding herd immunity. One community has no burglar alarms on the houses, another has alarms on 95% of the houses but there’s no markings to show which house has one and which doesn’t. Which community will have a higher rate of burglary? Even only counting the homes without alarms it will always be lower in the community with 95% coverage ’cause most burglars get caught before they can do any real damage. Not hard, no fancy math or anything to strain their walnut-sized brains. This is so simple I really don’t see how anyone could possibly question it except through willful ignorance.
Johnny,
I suppose wanting to protect the vulnerable from disease makes me just like the Ku Klux Klan on your planet. You must be very lonely there.
Is anything you write here true, or do you just make it all up? Live vaccines are contraindicated in severely immunocompromised people, and in those who cannot be vaccinated for other medical reasons (the clue is in the words). As for the small minority for whom vaccines are not effective, I wasn’t suggesting that vaccines are contraindicated for them, but keeping vaccine uptake levels high enough will protect them despite their lack of immunity.
Of course it isn’t a myth. If a vulnerable person only ever comes into contact with those who are immune to a disease, how are they going to contract that disease? It isn’t a difficult concept to grasp, for most people anyway.
That’s a flat lie as has been pointed out repeatedly. Unless you know better than the BBC and the Berlin Health Minister, which I doubt.
My point is that you are spouting easily refuted drivel. I’m glad you like my avatar, though if you think it’s a cat you have even more serious problems than I realized.
I don’t particularly care who you are, though why you would do such an excellent imitation of someone who runs an alternative health clinic that is barely making ends meet beats me.
How anyone can believe that utterly baffles me. Why do 90% of children in the UK get chicken pox, yet fewer than 1% do in the US? Where did measles, mumps and rubella go? It used to be the case that almost every child in the developed world got these diseases, but now hardly any do. Why did the number of bacterial meningitis cases I saw in the hospitals I have worked in plummet after vaccination was introduced? I could go on. It disgusts me that anyone can deny what an astonishingly effective health intervention vaccination has been – it has saved almost a million lives in the past 20 years in the US alone, and prevented millions of hospitalisations.
Theo,
Really? How did the killed measles vaccine, the whole cell pertussis vaccine and the Rotashield vaccine get withdrawn from the market? It seems to me that there are very effective surveillance mechanisms in place that can pick up even rare adverse events associated with vaccines, and when they are picked up the vaccine is taken off the market and a safer one developed.
Also, are all the other public health organisations in the world a part of this sinister cover-up? Why would countries like North Korea and Iran join in with a conspiracy like this? Do they blindly accept what the CDC tells them?
Hell, let’s also get around to another one that Philip Hills, Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex, has never been able to cough up, despite its practically being handed to him in the thread:
This was preceded at #581 by this:
There exactly two relevant sets of guidelines, CG47 (2007) and CG160 (2013), which succeeded the former.
Phildo, astonishingly, managed to fυck up so colossally – over and over – that he couldn’t figure out where the “2009” actually came from.
The two relevant documents are here:
h_tp://web.archive.org/web/20090216000718/http://nice.org.uk/guidance/CG47
h_tps://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg160
One may surmise that Phildo was “referring to” the former based on the 2011 date of this blindingly stupid entry from the “Clinic”:
h_tp://www.hope-osteopathic-and-acupuncture-clinic.co.uk/managing-fever-from-the-perspective-of-understanding-its-role-in-toxic-elimination/
What does CG47 have to say about “dish[ing] out antipyretics to kids with fevers”?
There is nothing even vaguely resembling Phildo’s attempt to elevate a terminal case of the repetition compulsion into onanistic fantasy. For the sake of completeness, on may turn to CG102, “Bacterial Meningitis and Meningococcal Septicaemia”:
h_tps://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg102
Predictably, there is nothing even vaguely resembling Phildo’s #581 anywhere, which seems to imagine that once the condition is diagnosed, the first thing on everybody’s mind will be looking to “reduce fever” with anything but IV ceftriaxone.
The second link is there in the last three words, but for the sake of convenience, “actually came from.”
but for the sake of convenience, “actually came from.”
Never mind, there is still the Gazoogle Cache. But shirley no-one would be so stupid as to confuse the 2009 guidelines on lower back pain (and osteopathic attempts to cherry-pick a role for themselves) with childhood fever guidelines!!
I thought that the suspension points would suffice to signal that the break was intentional (link conservation). Once I decided to clear out this overstock, the links were ready to hand. The two were separately written on the fly, though.
That not an HTML response. It’s working for me.
Perhaps here somewhere.
Sounds like the osteopathy website is routing traffic through the Incapsula Web Application Firewall.
“The error messages is powered by Incapsula.”
^ Beat me to it.
I am vaguely amused that Phildo has selected an accountant based at Capricorn “Centre.”
The CDC says that the benefits of vaccinating immunocompromised children aged 6 through 18 with both Prevnar 7 and Prevnar 13 outweigh the harm.
The CDC goes even further to declare all inactivated vaccines safe for the immunosuppressed to use.
We haven’t got rid of mumps or measles, just shunted it sideways. I have no idea what Mr Hill does or says, you have to deal with that obsession somewhere else.
You still haven’t talked about why the measles vaccine doesn’t work or provide any protection. It’s some wacky belief system ya got there.KKK
Johnny, you’re in denial (and I don’t mean the longest river in the world).
If the measles vaccine “doesn’t work” and we “shunted [measles and mumps] sideways”, why was Chris able to show that the rates of these diseases fell after vaccination was introduced?
Even though UK now has the highest MMR vaccine coverage in 25 years https://www.gov.uk/government/news/highest-mmr-vaccine-coverage-in-25-years – they also had the highest # of measles cases reported in two decades-
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-22277186
Explain please.
Nice attempt at misdirection, ken.From your first link:
I’ll bold the relevant part.
by age 2
That doesn’t mean that the rest of the population has an equally high level, and given that Andrew Wakefield started the MMR scare in 1998, it’s a safe bet that large numbers of the population are not vaccinated, or never had the second MMR.
One last thing: the BBC link about the outbreak is dated BEFORE the link about vaccination rates. It’s safe to assume that after the outbreaks, a lot of parents took their kids to get vaccinated.
A lie which is half a truth is ever the blackest of lies.
Johnny is still lying like a car salesman, I see.
Scratch this, a car seller would lie better.
We did, at length.
As reported for the Disneyland outbreak, the majority of sick people were non-vaccinated.
Yet, they are a minority in the whole population.
It’s as if the virus was targeting the non-vaccinated.
Our conclusion: the vaccine may not protect efficiently all of us, but it does protect a big many of us.
There is an ongoing outbreak of measles around Montréal.
Again, most sick people were unvaccinated.
” it’s a safe bet that large numbers of the population are not vaccinated, or never had the second MMR.” gambling, where is the science.
the majority of sick people were anecdotally non-vaccinated. but the only one who died in Germany was vaccinated. It really is like talking to the flat earth society here, amusing to a point but for shits sake some of the posters here are supposed to be doctors!!!! Herd immunity is a fail and so is lessened mortality a fail, again.
@252
Were these links supposed to be a sort of “Gotcha, how do you explain this?” moment?
Either you didn’t read past the headline (which is a little naughty, and can come back to haunt you when others look closely)
or you willfully lied about the report content (which is really naughty) hoping that no one will look at the link.
Neither of the above inspire confidence in what you have to say.
johnny,
So what? Live vaccines are contraindicated for severely immunocompromised people, just as I wrote. A transplant patient isn’t going to be protected against measles because they are vaccinated against pneumococcus. You do understand that vaccines are specific for different pathogens, don’t you?
What does “shunted it sideways” even mean? Incidence of mumps and measles has fallen by over 99% in countries where MMR is given routinely. Do you think vaccination in the US causes measles in Africa or something?
How can anyone claim that a vaccine that is 97% effective (after two doses of MMR), and has reduced the incidence of a disease by 99% “doesn’t work or provide any protection”? That’s delusional.
So a few hundred cases of measles (US, Canada and Germany) in non-vaccinated people is anecdotal, but one death in Germany isn’t?
Anyway, he wasn’t vaccinated against measles. We provided sources upthread.
Do you have a source telling otherwise?
ken,
The number reported may be higher, probably due to improved surveillance, but according to the HPA there were 1413 laboratory confirmed cases of measles in 2013, but only 111 laboratory confirmed cases of measles in 2014. It looks as if the catch-up campaigns for 10-16-year-olds who may have missed MMR during the Wakefield years are working.
Johnny, why do you persist in lying?
It has been pointed out to you (with irrefutable sources) that the child who died in Germany was not vaccinated against Measles, and had no underlying health conditions.
Why do you continue to insist that he was vaccinated in the teeth of proof to the contrary?
Kreb we are not talking about replacing a vaccine we are talking about Vaccines causing major damage to suscepltible children. Do you have a sold theory as to why Autism and learning disabilities are at all time highs? The medical establishment doesn’t have a good answer and they are NOT doing biological studies on vaccines over the long term to find out. how convenient that is. nothing to see here…..
Here is a study makes sense too. We are overstimulating the babies immune system.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19157572
Does anyone haver a good theory as to why we have so many sick children?
Pharmaceutical companies are GLOBAL and its the only solution right now for infectious disease. its a cost of doing business. plus they can’t be sued. so who cares about a few brain damaged children its for the greater good.
@johnny —
Please tell the class on what you base your (false, fixed) belief*** that the toddler who died of measles in Germany had received the MMR.
Seriously. Citation or GTFO.
***IOW: Your delusion!
Err, the study you linked to showed a state of inflammation in the brain of 10 ASD people.
It’s interesting and, if confirmed on bigger numbers, could lead to some good insights.
But it’s a bit early to blame it on “overstimulating the babies immune system”. You still have to show that it is overstimulated.
Especially in comparison of the usual “stimulation” of the babies’ immune system by natural infections.
@ Theo:
Whilst I am not Kreb, I can answer why “Autism and learning disabilities are at all time highs”..
Over time,.
– there were expansive changes in diagnostic standards that led to a greater number of children being diagnosed since mid-1990s ( esp for higher functioning autism/ Asperger’s Syndrome)
– there were more active screening processes ( which also explains higher ASD rates in areas that spend more money on screening vs in those which don’t)
– there were diagnostic substitutions wherein many children who formerly had been labeled as Intellectually Disabled/ Mentally Retarded would now be called ‘autistic’
You hardly hear of people receiving a diagnosis of “mental retardation” – damn, I feel dirty just writing that….but, of course, you do see a number of people receiving diagnoses of ADHD, Autism, and ASD….
MR was a blanket diagnosis given to just about everyone who was even a bit off back in the day – today, we are much more specific about what labels get used.
This isn’t rocket science theo – but then again, you’ve gone full anti-vax….
Some children may have been labelled as schizophrenic.
Were you planning on getting around to dealing with the actual history of such litigation, or do you just plan to emptily repeat this as a mantra?
I gather by Theo’s spelling of immunization (with a |z| not an |s| that he is an American.
Learning disabilities are my field. LDs such as dyslexia are under-diagnosed and under-treated. LDs are not (or are rarely) “brain damage” — they are normal variations in human brain structure.
@Theo:
Aren’t there other countries with other legal systems that don’t have NVIC-like procedures? How does that work out?
I was going to do a takedown of theo’s most recent load of droppings, but instead…
Citation needed for everything you said.
Exactly what “major damage” do you believe vaccines causing in susceptible children, and how hs it been factually established that the the damage isi n fact caused by the vaccines? Be specific.
First, recall that what we are seeing is an increase in the number of individuals diagnosed as having an autism spectrum disorder or learning disabiliy, not necessarily an increse in the actual proportion of individuals in the population which suffer from these disorders. Secondly, it’s clear that broadened diagnostic criteria, diagnostic substitution and increased surveillance are responsible for much of the increase in diagnoses.
For example, a recent (January 2015) study Explaining the increase in the prevalence of autism spectrum disorders: the proportion attributable to changes in reporting practices (PMID: 2536503) found that changes to reporting practices in Denmark accounted for as much as 60% of the observed increase in the prevalence of ASD’s in that nation. (See also See PMID:16585296; PMID: 17975721; PMID:18384386 for additional studies addressing the contribution of broadened diagnostic criteria, increased surveillance, etc., to the observed increase in diagnoses.)
Not doing long term studies? Off the top of my head I recall Madsen 2002 looked at all children born in Denmark from january 1991 through December 1998 and Hviid 2005 looked at all children born in Denmark from 1990 through 2001, and in addition ongoing post-marketing surveillance of all approved vaccines is continuous.
Recall that postmarketing surviellance has been proven capable of detecting even extremely rare adverse events that are associated with vaccines (e.g., one additional case of intussusception per 10,000 infants immunized with RotaShield). If vaccines actually did cause those vaccinated to develop autism spectrum disorders with sufficient frequency to cause the observed increase in diagnoses we’d have no trouble spotting it.
Theo,
We don’t. We have far fewer sick children than we used to, thanks to vaccines.
So the North Korean government has instituted a vaccination program just to keep Big Pharma happy? And they are bound by the US National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act? Who knew?
The whole cell pertussis vaccine was replaced with the acellular vaccine in the US and other countries because it was thought to be responsible for aseptic meningitis and brain damage. That was despite the incidence of aseptic meningitis after the vaccine being far lower than that after a wild mumps infection, and it now seems that no children were permanently injured by the vaccine. Those brain-damaged children (whose damage turned out not to have been caused by the vaccine) mattered, didn’t they? Why did the sinister global Big Pharma cabal make an exception for them?
Why were studies finding increased incidence of aseptic meningitis after the pertussis vaccine allowed to be published, but studies that show vaccines cause autism (according to your scenario) are suppressed or manipulated to cover up the truth?
@Kreb – because any evidence or historical events (like vaccines being taken off the market) that refute what an anti-vaxer believes…either don’t exist or are just more evidence of the actual cover-up.
Well. It can’t be due to vaccines, since (for example) the MMR uptake rate is higher in Canada than it is in the United States, where it’s higher than it is in France. And yet autism prevalence rates are presently approximately equal in France and the United States, where they’re roughly double that of Canada.
And so on.
Here are some further fun facts:
Autism rates in the United States began to go up after the 1990 amendment to the IDEA Act that made autism one of the diagnoses for which a free, appropriate public education was mandated by law, at which point diagnoses that didn’t qualify children for federally funded services began to decline.
See if you can figure out what might have happened there.
@JCG:
But you know, those aren’t LONG TERM studies! Why, they are only 10 years or so. That’s not truly long term and doesn’t take into account the effect of the mama’s ebil vaccines when she has her own precious snowflakes!!!!! TEH HORRORZ!!
“Long Term” = any amount of time that is longer than the studies that have been published to date (a great +1 scenario).
Madsen? Hviid?
Aren’t they *Danish*? ((shudder))
And right, Thorsen is Danish and you know what HE did.
So those studies can’t matter because they’re all part of the Big Fix ( Thorsen’s crimes)
I’m trying out for a part time job as an anti-vaccine blogger.
Krebiozen @257:
You’re arguing with a cut-&-paste troll. You’d probably have more success if you went to the source of the plagiarised passage and argued with the organ-grinder, rather than with the monkey.
Do you have a sold theory as to why Autism and learning disabilities are at all time highs?
Coming from a nutrition/MLM shill, “sold theory” is wonderfully apt.
Denice Walter @277:
Let’s go to the judges…
J.B. Handley gives you an 8.
Barbara Loe Fisher gives you a 7.
Jay Gordon gives you a 9.
I’m still the only commenter who was put “on probation” and then banned on Respectful Insolence and the SBM blogs, by Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP. 🙂
FTFY, Phildo. May I recommend some Veet for Men to try to unshrivel your knob and bollocks?
Since compliance with vaccination is at a high level maybe these issues can be addressed-
HIV deaths decreased slightly from 1.7 million (3.2%) deaths in 2000 to 1.5 million (2.7%) deaths in 2012. Diarrhoea is no longer among the 5 leading causes of death, but is still among the top 10, killing 1.5 million people in 2012.
Q: How many young children die each year, and why?
In 2012, 6.6 million children died before reaching their fifth birthday; almost all (99%) of these deaths occurred in low- and middle-income countries. The major killers of children aged less than 5 years were prematurity, pneumonia, birth asphyxia and birth trauma, and diarrhoeal diseases. Malaria was still a major killer in sub-Saharan Africa, causing about 15% of under 5 deaths in the region.
About 44% of deaths in children younger than 5 years in 2012 occurred within 28 days of birth – the neonatal period. The most important cause of death was prematurity, which was responsible for 35% of all deaths during this period.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs310/en/index2.html
there is compelling evidence that contracting measles as a child is beneficial as an adult.
“Compelling evidence” is a marvellous phrase, full of bluster and bluff, but it is no substitute for the evidence itself.
All you have to do is feed the human immune system the proper building blocks
The Gazoogle reports 414,000 results for “building blocks” + AdvoCare. MLMarketers seem to be keen on eating Lego.
“Since compliance with vaccination is at a high level maybe these issues can be addressed-
HIV deaths decreased slightly from 1.7 million (3.2%) deaths in 2000 to 1.5 million (2.7%) deaths in 2012.
What on the planet Earth do HIV deaths have to do with vaccination compliance?
@ken 283:
What does any of that have to do with vaccines?
And by the by, that number of kids who die before the age of five is a little more than half of what it was 25 years ago. I’m pretty sure a significant chunk of that is due to kids not dying from vaccine-preventable diseases.
What on the planet Earth do HIV deaths have to do with vaccination compliance?
Perhaps ken’s point is that when vaccination eliminates communicable diseases, third-world kids just die of something else, so why bother?
With respect to preventing deaths from pneumonia, the CDC recommends the vaccine PCV13 be given to infants a series of 4 doses, at 2 months, 4 months, 6 months, and 12 through 15 months of age.
With respect to preventing deaths associated with diarrheal disease, there are two approved vaccines (Rotateq and Rotarix) against rotavirus, the leading cause of diarrheal disease in children.
A vaccine for HIV perhaps?
http://www.healthline.com/health/hiv-aids/vaccine-how-close-are-we#LongRoad1
#287 you are showing signs of Alzheimer’s- i would suggest you get tested.
#288 Maybe in the USA but these are WHO facts- http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs330/en/
ken,
Did you miss this in the WHO factsheet you cired?
I’m trying to figure our what your point is, Ken. HIV deaths decreased (owing to effective, expensive drug therapy) . . . so why bother developing a prophylactic vax?
“cired”? I meant “cited”, I think.
I believe drug companies are working on HIV and malaria vaccines. It is possible to support vaccination and other measures to improve health, by the way.
Yes, HIV vaxes have been in the hopper for ages. Just trying to understand if Ken believes a vax would be folly in light of treatment advances.
@290
Not only in the USA: from the link you provided “Rotavirus and Escherichia coli are the two most common etiological agents of diarrhoea in developing countries.”
#295 The USA has safe drinking water. ( I oppose fracking for this reason.)
I’m probably the only one among you who had the smallpox
vaccination LOL (among others)
@ Krebiozen
I don’t know, in French “cire” means “wax”.
So you are saying that ken had a waxing citation, or maybe that he waxed it, as in pouring hot wax on it…
A bit avant-guardiste as an expression, but not completely devoid of sense 🙂
HIV is a horrendous disease- I knew many personally who died from it. Any means to prevent it would be welcome.
One might note that rotavirus and PCV are just starting to make their way into Africa. I don’t have the papers handy, but IIRC, the VEs for PCV vary quite a bit by population (rural vs. urban, presence or absence of relative poverty). I think there’s also a combination vaccine either in the works or already deployed.
I’ll try to find the stuff when I’m a bit less frenzied.
So ken, what is your point?
You really have a penchant for baseless assumptions, don’t you? Oh, and protip: using “LOL” pretty much brands one as an idiot.
I’m sure there are still more than a few of us who received the Smallpox Vaccine – I am probably just young enough to have missed it….but just barely.
Certainly if more people had safe drinking water it would cut down on cholera, typhoid, typhus, schistosomiasis, amoebic dysentery, and cryptosporidiosis, among other diseases.
I’m not sure what that does against airborne diseases like measles or diseases that are spread by direct fluid transfer such as HIV.
Your estimates of probability are somewhat off. Also, what is funny about the smallpox vaccination?
Correction: clean water will not prevent typhus. My error.
No, ken: you’re not.
I was vaccinated for smallpox..
“Oh, and protip: using “LOL” pretty much brands one as an idiot.”
It’s better than “Hahaha”.
I was vaxed for smallpox. I recall my mom showing me my scar at one point. She was so pleased it was done on my inner arm.
luv my vaccinated grandkids- running joke with them is LOL-
Sorry -they say “you’re old”LOL I say back you’re young LOL
silly habit using it -PS not an idiot have advanced degree.
Good nite
According to linguist John McWhorter, LOL no longer literally means “laugh out loud” in common usage. Except, of course, when it does. See http://www.ted.com/talks/john_mcwhorter_txtng_is_killing_language_jk?language=en at about the 6 minute mark.
I was vaccinated for smallpox as a child.. Almost got a booster in the 1970s when I was traveling to the third world, but by that time the disease was all-but-eliminated and the nurse found some lame excuse (look! a pimple!) to avoid the vaccination, which I guess was a little riskier than most.
My grandmother actually contracted smallpox, but avoided scratching her face to smithereens through an almost superhuman act of will. An amazing lady.
PS not an idiot have advanced degree.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
“We are overstimulating the babies immune system.”
Do you have any clue what life was like historically, and still is in much of the world? Babies weren’t born in nice sterile hospital beds; for much of human evolution, babies weren’t born in anything resembling a bed. They weren’t wrapped up in nice clean clothes; they were wrapped up in whatever was available, which was by our standards not at all clean. They were immediately attacked by their family’s parasites. They were of course breast-fed, but their mothers didn’t (couldn’t) scrub the grime off with antibacterial soap before offering the breast.
We are descended from babies whose immune systems coped with that onslaught from the moment of birth.
The WHO estimates that 1.7 million of those children die of vaccine-preventable diseases. Because they’re not vaccinated. BTW.
#313 “we are descended…..your quote- not the same thing according to this article-
“This is logical, since passive immunization is obviously not a normal, physiological component of mammalian immune systems.”
cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/1/76.full
#314 if you’re drinking contaminated water you are more likely to contract a VPD. Not a valid argument – clean water is more important- while the Gates are sincere, I hope they start with financing the means to safe water.
Great- found it- Gates is on it!
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-30709273
You struggle to put together a coherent sentence and don’t know how to signal a quotation, leaving others to infer that you’re doing so when one of your comments suddenly has a stretch of recognizable content-bearing English. What’s your “advanced degree” in?
This is much more “effective” if you don’t promptly post several more comments.
What in the name of FSM does “passive immunization, or administration of exogenous antibody” * have to do with exposure to antigens in childhood?
* E.g. tetanus antitoxin, snakebite antivenom, diphtheria serum.
You left out the “maternal” part.
Liz Ditz: LDs such as dyslexia are under-diagnosed and under-treated. LDs are not (or are rarely) “brain damage” — they are normal variations in human brain structure.
Yep. And until very recently, universal schooling wasn’t attempted. Dyslexics who weren’t bluebloods would never have been noticed, since most of the population was illiterate.
“We are descended from babies whose immune systems coped with that onslaught from the moment of birth.” LW
Yes but the immune system was designed to cope with external assaults, not injected directly into the blood stream via the muscles bypassing all the defense mechanisms that nature has provided. If none of our natural defense mechanisms were strong enough – explain how we have population explosion in the third world and infertility issues in the so called first world please.
“The WHO estimates that 1.7 million of those children die of vaccine-preventable diseases. Because they’re not vaccinated. BTW.” Ann
Well they would, wouldn’t they and it is an estimate. If we looked at the WHO capacity to estimate world deaths from swine flu I wouldn’t take this estimate to mean much at all.
Oh Narad, I am not Phillip Hills and never have been. That is some serious obsession complex you have there. Maybe you should get some nice medical treatment for it.
Anti pyretics do not reduce the likelihood of febrile convulsions and that is why most people falsely give them. Who gives a fuck what the date was, that study turned around the common medical myths about medicating during fever in kids, highlighting the disastrous sequalae from fever suppression. If you want to wank yourself stupid over a date detail and obsession with me being someone else get on with it. If you are interested in the science that challenges a common medical mistake that could be easily rectified by following good research then welcome to the real world sonny.
Oh Johnny, Johnny, Johnny.
If ignorance was bliss, you’d be euphoric. This is a PRATT (Point Refuted A Thousand times). Children fall and scrape their knees. Adults cut themselves while working. People eat food with open sores in their mouths. I’ve cut myself both preparing food and cleaning knives. All these things happen and our immune systems handle them fine, but an injection with a tightly controlled quantity of substances isn’t?
Fail.
Narad, if you want to wank yourself stupid over a date and an obsession with me being someone called Mr Hill then that’s fine. If you were a scientist then you would be interested in research that showed the old medical myth of giving anti fever medication to kids to stop fits was not evidence based. Most doctors and parents thought that anti fever meds stopped fever fits but that is now known not to be true. Also it causes far more complications to suppress the fever which is also one in the eye for those who think suppressing fever is to be done for the best interests of the child.
Oh Juilian Beans really really – Injecting a cocktail of lab chemicals is not the same as scraping your knee. This fallacy is often used by GM fans who think that mating a whale with a strawberry by extracting DNA to make freeze resistant fruit is the same as hand pollinating fruit trees. Nice distraction if you can get away with it but still complete bullshit
“Johnny” sez:
Will you make up your mind, please, between “directly into the blood stream” vs “via the muscles”..
“all”?
A big bucket of antigen-presenting cells would like to have a word with you.
Bill Price, Johnny covered his bets by stating vaccines are “injected directly into the bloodstream ‘via’ the muscles”.
Are all vaccines administered intramuscularly Johnny?
No Johnny, you are misinformed when you state “most doctors and parents thought that anti fever meds stopped fever fits but that is now known not to be true.” Antipyretic medication will eventually lower body temperature…within 30-60 minutes of administration. In order to stop prolonged seizures (status epilepticus), you need IV Push Lorazapam.
The decision to administer an *antipyretic (with high fevers or following a febrile seizure) is based on the child’s medical/ neurological history and based on the goal of improvement of the child’s comfort level. It’s all part of doctors’ and nurses’ professional practice to provide reliable information to children’s caretakers about the proper use of antipyretic medications.
Did you happen to notice that you’re posting comments on a United States-based science blog, where the proper terminology is “seizures”…not “fits”?
* Acetaminophen or Ibuprofen…never ASA during a viral illness, because of the risk of Reye Syndrome for children who have a previously undiagnosed mitochodrial disorder or metabolic disorder:
http://www.pedneur.com/article/S0887-8994%2808%2900266-X/abstract
What’s interesting about SBM’s practice of constant re-evaluation? This is a dog-bites-man story. The results will be examined; confirmed or not, as needed; and the SBM standards of care will be adjusted, if adjustment is indicated. Ho hum.
The man-bites-dog, interesting story would be for Faith-Based-Medicine aka sCAM, were to (1) have standards of care, (2) re-evaluate them, and (3) adjust them when the FBM practice was found wanting.
Johnny,
Neither of those assertions are true. Antipyretics do reduce the likelihood of febrile seizures, but they do not reduce the recurrence rate. Anyway, most people give/use acetaminophen or ibuprofen because they reduce unpleasant symptoms, not just to suppress a fever.
What “disastrous”sequalae” [sic]? This systematic review found a reduction in antibody responses, but not a clinically significant one (‘PCM’ means paracetamol aka acetaminophen).
Antipyretics significantly reduce uncomfortable symptoms while allowing the generation of protective levels of antibodies. What’s wrong with that?
Johnny, the fact that you believe that vaccines are
shows just how little you know about vaccine manufacture.
cocktail of lab chemicals
Tell me, do they come with the little umbrellas?
@Johnny, you seem to have missed this:
“They [babies, historically] were immediately attacked by their family’s parasites.”
Those parasites would be things like fleas, lice, or bedbugs, all of which bite and inject chemicals (*gasp*) under the skin. In addition, depending on season and location, babies would also be bitten by mosquitos and other flying insects. Moreover, the baby’s environment would not be so cleaned-up and smoothed-out as ours, so particularly when the baby started crawling around, he was likely to acquire scrapes and cuts that also inject chemicals (*gasp*) under the skin, into the muscles, and even at times into the bloodstream.
My point, which you seem to have missed, is that our ancestors (human and earlier) lived in an environment where their immune systems were challenged far more rigorously than any vaccination schedules could match. They evolved immune systems that could cope with that. We have inherited such immune systems. Babies that can’t handle the challenges of the vaccination schedule are going to be very rare.
100 quatloos says he believes in the anthroposophic “medicine” belief that “working through” fevers is beneficial for children.
^ That was a terrible sentence, sorry.
Again, sorry to interrupt.
But provide a citation/source for your false assertion that the child who died of measles in Germany had received the MMR.
Or GTFO.
Thanks.
To add to LW
Some of these chemicals would be from dirt and dust.
Our old pal aluminium oxide, as one of the most common chemicals on Earth surface, could be expected to be among the invaders.
Those don’t really seem like equivalents to me. Apples and oranges, in fact. But all right. If WHO estimates are a problem:
The most recent non-estimated, actual WHO figure for unvaccinated children under the age of five dying of vaccine-preventable diseases is from 2008. And it is:
1.5 million.
Got a problem with that?
Exactly what defense mechanisms are bypassed, Johnny, and what evidence indicates that because they’re bypassed the risk associated with being vaccinated exceedis the risks assoiciated with remaining vulnerable to infection by diseases they protect against?
Be specific
Oh–and one more point: re: “the immune system was designed to cope with external assaults”: the immune system did not arise as the result of goal-oriented design.
Oh Juilian Beans really really – Injecting a cocktail of lab chemicals is not the same as scraping your knee.
That’s correct: injecting that “cocktail of lab chemicals” exposes one to small, defined number of “chemicals” and (in the case of live virus vacines) attenuated pathogens at levels which have not been found to cause harm.
When you instead scrape your knee you have no idea how many or what chemicals and pathogens in what amounts you’re being exposed to.
First sentence should have been blockquoted
#340 Ann
Unfortunately norovirus is now a major threat http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/804532
Well, there are some problems here, Phildo: (1) You’re an osteopath, so you have no idea of what “a scientist” would think about anything. (2) You’ve only just now come up with the “to stop fits” routine after the actual facts of your whole stupid shіttrip were rammed down your fυcking throat.
Remember this, Bitsy?
(3) Nobody else is obligated to pretend that your screamingly idiotic assertions never happened just because you are, jackass. So you get right back to explaining where the “directly leads to chronic illness” and the “more sequalae [sic]” after meningitis came from.
Or keep right on squirming for the audience. It’s a lovely testimonial for the level of professionalism that one is likely to encounter at the Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex.
What “study”? You think a set of clinical guidelines is a study?
Now, that’s what I call an encore.
Something else for “johnny” to chew on:
http://www.vox.com/2015/3/25/8287939/vaccines-work?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=voxdotcom&utm_content=wednesday
Try adjusting the septomiter filter.
A septomiter filter is designed to keep out seven-headed mitre-wearing Beasts of Revelation.
And here Phildo adds on to his catastrophically demonstrated wholesale ignorance of the innate immune system by asserting that it’s all about barrier systems, which come before the innate response.
explain how we have population explosion in the third world and infertility issues in the so called first world please.
I’ve noticed this with Essex boys in the past. It only takes a few pints of lager and they’re ranting about over-population in the 3rd World, dark-skinned people breeding like rabbits, white people losing the population race. The only question is whether Philip Hills votes UKIP or BNF.
Strangely, denial of this seems to be the sole item that manages to hold your attention, here, comically, in back-to-back comments:
And this is ignoring a level of unconcern on your part that extends to whomping up pseudonyms that deny it and inserting denials into the “location” field. All very convincing, indeed.
injected directly into the blood stream via the muscles bypassing all the defense mechanisms that nature has provided.
Injections bypass all the body’s defense mechanisms, which is why they produce no immune response. But apparently they do. It is a paradox!
Boy, you’d think the immune system never had any experience with “injected” viruses or bacteria in its evolutionary period – you know, like insect bites or trauma….
Seriously Johnny, you’re one of the stupidest people I’ve ever had the misfortune to meet.
The fact that Drosophila and C. elegans can be used to model human innate immunity is a pretty good tipoff that that machinery was set up a long time ago.
To Whom It May Concern:
What make you of this-
http://www.infectioncontroltoday.com/news/2015/03/hbv-exposure-matures-infants-immune-systems.aspx
Reinforcement that you can’t think, mostly.
As a fun aside, though, it does also point out that the DEM POISONZ GONNA DO OVARWELMIN’ ON MAH BABBY’S BABBY MUNE SYSTIM!!! routine is still brain-dead.
I think a far more entertaining approach here would be for you tell the audience what you “make of this.” It would surely be better than offering you possible conclusions, asking whether you agree with them or not, and waiting for you to change the subject.
#357 I really wasn’t interested in this but thought somebody might be. I am so amused at your hubris.
Sounds like one hell of a lousy trade off…
Barfing up a press release with no comment other than “What make you of this” strongly suggests otherwise.
How? Why? Tell the story from your perspective.
Or, let’s cut to the chase: Where did you regurgitate it from?
Demonstrating that you don’t know what words mean isn’t a way of doing yourself any favors.
Acquiring the hepatitis B virus at birth could help the child to develop a mature immune system to fight serious bacterial infections…such as S. typhimurium Chronic HBV carriage from infancy leaves the baby at risk for chronic glomerulonephritis and vasculitis…even in the absence of the HBV “e” antigen.
Nice, real nice tradeoff.
Oops no HBV DNA viral loads were reported for the two groups of infected study subjects.
#358 Why would anybody consider this as positive?
Lousy tradeoff actually in my opinion. Who would want to see a baby infected with HBV if it’s preventible with a vaccine.
I suppose this might as well be taken care of, too:
This might be a propitious time to take inventory of who else you are Most Certainly Not. This is elementary linear programming.
Are you also not “sarah007“?
Are you further not “smoky mirror“?
How would you like to work this, Phildo?
Narad, I am sure I am not the only one who has come to in some way admire your reload time. You still seem unable to explain why the current Disney measles outbreak does not confirm again another vaccine failure marketed up as ‘blame in on the immigrants’. We have mythical herd immunity communities failing to be protected – again- and all you can do is take Captain Picard to warp speed yet again over some illusory diversion of identity.
That is the nature of vaccine failure denial and when Merck get nailed to the wall for fiddling its MMR data………………………..
An insect bite is not the same as a cocktail of lab chemicals – next you will be telling us that GM is the same as hand pollination…..
Once again, Johnny shows his belief that if you tell a lie enough times, it’ll become true.
Most, if not all, of the infected, were intentionally unvaccinated. How you can claim that this is a “vaccine failure” defies comprehension.
Immigrants are not being blamed. Wealthy, arrogant individuals with a major entitlement complex are.
As has been pointed out to you, false. Antivaxxers cluster, and those clusters have not reached herd immunity levels. The failure is with people not getting their vaccines. When herd immunity is reached, the diseases can’t spread.
2 + 2 will never equal 5, no matter how often you say it Johnny.
Setting aside the spectacle of your bizarrely resorting to a 20-year-old pop culture reference as an evasion tactic, Phildo, it might help if you clarify what “illusory” is supposed to, ah, mean here.
If you had said, say, “illusory division of identity,” that would be one thing. But you were asked two simple questions, and you ran the fυck away.
Do they call your specific facial grooming style “the Essex mυff,” Phildo? They should.
In fairness to chavs, they do not all affect facial stylings reminiscent of a toilet brush.
In all fairness, as well, to muffs, I have come across rather more comely ones in my day.
I am so amused at your hubris.
I cannot speak for the members of Narad’s staff, but my Hubris are all hard-working individuals and they are not there for your entertainment.
Each Hubri is proud of his heritage and he does not appreciate mockery.
Nice try Julian. But the only measles death was a boy in Germany who had been vaccinated. It is dull repeating truth to idiots and deniers.
The limits of Narad’s pseudo science are appeals to emotion and the straw phallus.
“Most, if not all, of the infected, were intentionally unvaccinated. How you can claim that this is a “vaccine failure” defies comprehension.” Julian
More modern medical anecdotes – come on try and support that supposition with some science Julian.
Remember the official CDC statement about the measles Disney fairy story was that an unknown woman who was probably unvaccinated and is now where abouts unknown probably stayed at Disney………….. how many bears were there Julian…………..who has been eating baby bears porridge……………..how many people have shares?…………call yourself a scientist pooooooo.h
He had not been vaccinated against measles.
So tell us, Johnny, what really happened?
Johnny, he was not vaccinated against Measles and had no underlying medical conditions.
Krebiozen @100 linked to an article in The Guardian.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/23/german-health-official-mandatory-measles-vaccinations-child-dies
Why do you repeat that lie in the teeth of proof to the contrary?
Because all vaccines are one. Just as bad side-effects from the mumps vaccine, or the whole-cell pertussis vaccine, prove that the measles vaccine causes autism, any vaccine must protect against every vaccine-preventable disease.
Johnny,
What evidence do you have that the Berlin Health Minister was lying or mistaken when he stated that the boy had not been vaccinated against measles?
Also, the only measles death? What about the other measles deaths in Europe over the last few years? In 2011 it was reported that “21 877 people were admitted to hospital and 21 died (case fatality 0.69 deaths/1000 reported cases); 71% of people infected were aged under 20 years and 85% were unvaccinated”. More have died in Europe since then. By the way, in 2011 alone 158,000 people died of measles globally.
Here’s some more information about that outbreak that you can ignore because it doesn’t fit with your bizarre world-view:
That seems to be a non sequitur. What isn’t a valid argument?
Than what?
Well then, you’ll be pleased to know that it’s one of their chief areas of concern. You can read all about it on their website’s “Water, Sanitation and Hygiene” page.
But why are we even talking about the Gates Foundation? Are you sure you’re replying to me? All I said was that the WHO estimated that 1.7 million children a year died of vaccine preventable diseases.
Which, incidentally, clean water does not prevent. That’s why they’re called vaccine-preventable diseases, as a matter of fact. .
In any event. The Gates Foundation is on it.
Ha.
I’ve been tangling with someone like Johnny on another board. This individual keeps insisting that the last measles death in the US was in 2003, even after I’ve repeatedly pointed out that that only applies to *acute* measles, since there have been deaths in the US due to SSPE since then. It’s like a very specific form of deafness.
No, it wasn’t, Phildo. You’ve already tried this one, remember? Go find that “official CDC statement.”
I’ll wait. Keep in mind how these things play out for you while you’re at it.
When someone is as breathtakingly out of touch on the facts of the German measles death or the Disneyland measles outbreak as Johnny appears to be, then you’re dealing with a troll. Who must not be fed.
Except that we’re not seeing vaccine to fail, as the large majority of infections in this outbreak have occurred in unvaccinated individuals despite the fact that unvaccinated individuals comprise a minority of the population.
Let’s see – measles is probably the most contagious disease on the planet, infecting up to 90% of those who are exposed – and potentially thousands of people were exposed at Disneyland, yet only a handful actually got sick (and most of those were unvaccinated).
Sounds like the vaccine works pretty damn well to me.
But-but-but Lawrence Solomon himself says that the measles vaccine is a failure! Case closed!
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/lawrence-solomon/measles-vaccine_b_5376951.html
(Please note: the foregoing was sarcasm.)
It seems quite likely that the problem here is that you’re failing to understand what Philip Hills, Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex, “means” by “vaccine failure.” Let’s return to his first attempt:
Note also that Phildo doesn’t believe that influenza is a communicable disease:
In comment #507, he extends this:
This is consonant with the tenets of “classical osteopathy”:
“I will say that many of my patients report that they have never been physically strong since they were vaccinated with impure vaccine matter. Thus we have the effects to combat, and our only hope is to adjust and keep the bony framework all in line so that all impurities will have a chance to pass off and out….
“It is not necessary for the osteopath to enter into the discussion of the unanswerable question of how a contagious disease gets possession of the person. A knowledge of this process has long since been pronounced by the medical world an impossibility….
“We have no controversy with scientists over the fact that
germs are found in the system. This was proven many years ago. The germs must have suitable conditions or they fail to appear in dangerous numbers. First, they must have dead flesh to eat or they will die…. A few germs have been reported to have been found in healthy persons. We are well satisfied that there was some failure of the blood, Nature’s reliable germicide, to reach and repair and hold healthy possession of that part of the body in which the germ has been found. We will stick to the belief that Nature’s chemistry can produce and apply the substance that will destroy any germ that appears in the various kinds of disease in which it is claimed they are found. Not only can Nature’s chemistry destroy the germs but it can disorganize and pass away unnatural accumulations of lime.
“Measles is a condition or effect produced by a poisonous, infectious and contagious gas, so far as we know. The question is not what is the cause, but what part of the body does this poisonous substance affect? It irritates the whole constrictor system of the human body and closes the excretory gates so tight that the foul gases cannot pass out from the body through the porous system. All infectious diseases such as measles, mumps, smallpox, chickenpox and other rashes are simply an exhibit of the method that Nature uses to get rid of deadly poisons that should have passed through the excretory pipes or ducts. We conclude that when the fluids of the body are stopped in the fascia, organs and other parts of the system, stagnation, fermentation, heat and general confusion will follow until the system grows hot enough to produce a finer gas or cold enough to relax the skin and let those poisonous fluids pass out and off.”
h_tps://www.atsu.edu/museum/subscription/pdfs/still,%20a.t/stillosteopathyresearchandpractice1910.pdf
It strikes me as entirely self-consistent to construe “vaccine failure” in the Phildoverse as the vaccine’s plugging up the fascia or something and causing the retention of the germs.
Ah, I see why I just sent a comment into moderation – a cut-and-paste error. As it happens, this also makes it almost unreadable, so I’m just going with a do-over.
—–
It seems quite likely that the problem here is that you’re failing to understand what Philip Hills, Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex, “means” by “vaccine failure.” Let’s return to his first attempt:
Note also that Phildo doesn’t believe that influenza is a communicable disease:
In comment #507, he extends this:
This is consonant with the tenets of “classical osteopathy”:
“I will say that many of my patients report that they have never been physically strong since they were vaccinated with impure vaccine matter. Thus we have the effects to combat, and our only hope is to adjust and keep the bony framework all in line so that all impurities will have a chance to pass off and out….
“It is not necessary for the osteopath to enter into the discussion of the unanswerable question of how a contagious disease gets possession of the person. A knowledge of this process has long since been pronounced by the medical world an impossibility….
“We have no controversy with scientists over the fact that
germs are found in the system. This was proven many years ago. The germs must have suitable conditions or they fail to appear in dangerous numbers. First, they must have dead flesh to eat or they will die…. A few germs have been reported to have been found in healthy persons. We are well satisfied that there was some failure of the blood, Nature’s reliable germicide, to reach and repair and hold healthy possession of that part of the body in which the germ has been found. We will stick to the belief that Nature’s chemistry can produce and apply the substance that will destroy any germ that appears in the various kinds of disease in which it is claimed they are found. Not only can Nature’s chemistry destroy the germs but it can disorganize and pass away unnatural accumulations of lime.
“Measles is a condition or effect produced by a poisonous, infectious and contagious gas, so far as we know. The question is not what is the cause, but what part of the body does this poisonous substance affect? It irritates the whole constrictor system of the human body and closes the excretory gates so tight that the foul gases cannot pass out from the body through the porous system. All infectious diseases such as measles, mumps, smallpox, chickenpox and other rashes are simply an exhibit of the method that Nature uses to get rid of deadly poisons that should have passed through the excretory pipes or ducts. We conclude that when the fluids of the body are stopped in the fascia, organs and other parts of the system, stagnation, fermentation, heat and general confusion will follow until the system grows hot enough to produce a finer gas or cold enough to relax the skin and let those poisonous fluids pass out and off.”
h_tps://www.atsu.edu/museum/subscription/pdfs/still,%20a.t/stillosteopathyresearchandpractice1910.pdf
It strikes me as entirely self-consistent to construe “vaccine failure” in the Phildoverse as the vaccine’s plugging up the fascia or something and causing the retention of the germs. Thus, the cause of the Disneyland outbreak can be “vaccine failure” per se.
Why do you repeat that lie in the teeth of proof to the contrary?
He’s learned that it gets a reaction. Trolls gotta troll.
I can’t possibly answer everyone. But I can give you a birds eye view of the problem.
Ever since the medical establishment took control over the health care system 80 or so years ago and pushed out naturopaths homeopaths and chiros we have had a meteoric rise in chronic disease and a focus on controlling symptoms not finding out causes. This has lead to an explosion in drugs, vaccines and surgeries. Which has lead to big buisness and corruption with a focus on profits. Money influences health care just like politics. With that said.
Point #1
I trust independent research finding new evidence that vaccines are linked to autoimmune diseases. It makes logical sense that 49’doses of 14 shots up until age 6 has the potential to do harm to the immune system by artificially stimulating it. Vaccines clog our lymphatic system and lymph nodes with large protein molecules which have not been adequately broken down by our digestive processes, since vaccines by pass digestion with injections. This is why vaccines are linked to allergies, because they contain large proteins which as circulating immune complexes (CICs) or “klinkers” which cause our body to become allergic. Then the child goes on multiple rounds of antibiotics for ear infections etc..linked to vaccines. This destroy’s the child’s micro-biome where 80% of the innate immune system is. Doctors are ignorant of the the micro biome and the need for probiotics. Then the kids feed on GMO foods found in cereal containing glyphosphate which destroys the epithelial cells of the digestive tract. This leads to leaky gut syndrome allowing ingested aluminum & circulating food proteins into the blood causing autoimmune diseases. Then 15 years later you have lupus or chrons disease all thanks to the chemical based medical establishment monopoly #boom. See Dr Seneff research on this
Point #2
There is simply no current long term studies actively looking at the vaccine schedule. Sure they study 1 vaccine and do surveillance but they are short term in nature. What if natural measles antibodies protect you from cancers? See HBO “vice” special on that. What if these benign childhood diseases are designed to develop the immune system but we are depriving the human body of this right of passage? Vaccines are one huge massive experiment with no long term follow up…what if the subtle side effects come 5 -20 years later? there is no way of knowing. Show us the science it’s safe long term! You can’t
Point #3
Trusting the medical establishments viewpoint on this subject is a matter of personal judgement. There is absolutely no reason to trust I drug companies when they are immune from lawsuit. And I certainly do not trust the pharma trained pediatricians to be objective. They are but mere soldiers in this, trained to believe that vaccines are safe and effective and completely benign.
Point #4
Aluminum works great for vaccines and an immune response but there is a cost to that. It disrupts the biochemistry of the human body in ways we don’t fully understand. Your study says we piss it out the study I cited says aluminum deposits in distant organs, such as spleen and brain where they were still detected one year after injection. Which study are you going to believe? Judgement call.
Point#5
We know that many supposed vaccine preventable diseases were declining prior to vaccination because of sanitation,access to clean water,personal hygiene, ending hunger, better nutrition etc . So it’s impossible to say with 100% confidence vaccines are solely responsible for saving lives. I’m sure you have seen the charts cited by our side. For example, in the United States the mortality rate for measles decreased by more than 98% before the introduction of the measles vaccine in 1963. In England, we see the same thing – a dramatic decrease in deaths before the introduction of the measles vaccine in 1968. I’m going to go with logic and bet that better living conditions was the main reason for the decline in diseases and the big push for vaccines is more profit driven than science. So please do the fucking vax vs unvax study already and settle this debate once and for all. I have heard the arguments against this idea and they are flimsy at best! Do the damn study!
Point #5
I believe we are at the beginning of a long term trend away from vaccines over safety issues. I also think the whole foods all natural mommy movement is really growing. There is a realization that health and wellness comes from food,nutrition and lifestyle. Not from the end of a needle containing chemicals or frequent trips to your medical doctor for your monthly prescription. Duh! Poor health outcomes in this country will continue to increase more and more kids will be chronically ill and people will take notice, and in 20-30 years from now the truth will come out as it always does. Oops vaccines do actually build the foundation for auto immune diseases. Oops sorry aluminum is in fact mutagenic. And God knows what else they will find. Maybe more Xmrv retroviruses?
Point#6
This idea that we have to vaccinate against every single infectious disease and reprogram the immune system in developing babies doesn’t make sense either. why can’t we wait until they’re 3 years old when they are toddlers? What’s the fucking rush? Hep b hours after you are born is quackery. Shouldn’t we be putting our efforts into things that are far more dangerous than measles? Every year in the United States nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) kill 16,500 people through gastrointestinal complications. [39] Secondhand smoke kills 42,000 nonsmokers.[40] Hospital-acquired pressure sores kill 60,000 people. [41] Hospital-acquired infections kill 100,000 people, [42] and one study estimates there are as many as 400,000 premature deaths from preventable medical harms associated with hospital care [43]. The odds of dying because of medical harm associated with hospital care is 1 in 790 – a far cry from the 1962 chance of dying from measles at 1 in 457,000. And ironically those pediatric offices where you’re getting your vaccine to protect your healthy child from measles was recently reported at causing 700,000 flu-like illnesses each year in children and family members within two weeks of the visit. [44] That is higher than the approximately 500,000 measles cases that occurred in 1962.
Point #7
why are legislators trying to take away personal exemptions in 35 states? If vaccines are incredible life saving procedures we wouldn’t have to be forced, we would line up for them wouldn’t we. Anytime the govt tries to take domain over you or your child’s body that is a red flag. Abortion rights? The reason they want high vaccination rates is to blur the lines so that people won’t find out that the unvaccinated are significantly healthier. Eventually science will conclusively find out they do long term damage to your immune system and leave you with plastic artificial immunity bulked up on antibodies leaving the cellular mediated immune response compromised. I won’t be waiting around for CNN to report it.
Point #8
Dr mercola
True Immunity: Where Does it Come From? Nutrition!
Science has glossed over the most valuable point of health, … nutrition. What is it that boosts our immune system and gives one a vibrant healthy life? … nutrition. What is it that allows one to over -come the most devastating diseases known to mankind? … Nutrition. What is the key factor for the recovery of disease? … Nutrition. What is needed for the body to heal itself? … Nutrition. What key factor prevents disease? … Nutrition. What is missing from allopathic medicine today? … Nutrition! It is nutrition and only nutrition which boosts our immune system and helps the body defend itself from foreign pathogens. Herbs, foods, nutrients and vitamin supplements are the tour-de-force of our immunity and it is virtually ignored by medical science in favor of drugs (chemicals).
Finally
Just like the tobacco industry denied smoking caused cancer. More doctors smoke camels than any other cigarette remember the ads? Or in the case of the NFL Denying that football caused long term head injuries. Change takes time. we are at the very beginning of this movement.and the this is precisely what it should look like. Non vaxxers being called kooks cranks science deniers and crazy. It’s right out of the playbook. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident
I call Anti-Vax bingo on Theo!
[39] [40] [41] [42] [43] [44]
Pro-tip: Edit out the footnotes when you’re cut-&-pasting someone else’s bullsh1t; they make you look like a lazy plagiarist.
“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident”
That is certainly the path that vaccines took. First people laughed at the idea of vaccines, then there were violent protests (with real violence, not just criticism), and finally everybody accepted them. We’ve found a new step though. After an idea is accepted as self evident, people like Wakefield figure out how to scam people by opposing the truth.
P.S. I’m glad you mentioned tobacco science. It’s fascinating how intertwined tobacco companies are with antivaxxers. Both Dr. Healy and Jenny McCarthy took money from tobacco companies, and told antivax lies.
Interesting you say that. The immunologist Hugh Fudenberg was massively funded by the tobacco industry before he joined up with Wakefield. That was when Wakefield was funded by the drug industry.
@#388 —
That’s why I picked it to focus on. Repeating it doesn’t do him any favors. And it’s something a casual reader can easily check.
You lose (PDF).*
* One of the very few undergraduate professors who really stands out in my memory, BTW.
From Narad’s osteopathy excerpt @389
Theo,
You basically hit every single pathetic anti-vaccine canard in one post. Some facts:
Point 1 – Dr. Seneff is a computer scientist at MIT. Orac has blogged about and debunked her nonsense before. Try again.
Point #2: You provide zero evidence for your claims that vaccines are somehow decreasing the effectiveness of one’s immune system.
Point #3: A subjective opinion. Because pharmaceutical companies have engaged in less than desirable practices in the past does not mean that vaccines are harmful.
Point #4: There is no evidence that aluminum in the amounts contained in vaccines causes harm. Aluminum is everywhere and you probably breathe in more of it than the amount you get in a vaccine.
Point #5: Yes, medical care improved in the first half of the 20th century to keep people from dying from VPD’s. I guess your position is that if you’re permanently scarred or disabled from a vaccine preventable disease, that’s ok as long as you don’t get the evil chemicalz.
Point #6: A complete non-sequitor. What does the number of people who die in hospitals have to do with vaccines?
Point #7: I sympathize with the libertarian view that government shouldn’t interfere with personal decisions. But I also want the government to make sure that your stupid personal decision doesn’t interfere with my life. If you don’t want your kids to be vaccines, then that’s your choice, but that choice has consequences.
Point #8: Quoting Dr. Mercola is an automatic fail.
In conclusion – you make the analogy between vaccines and the NFL. And I’ll use them (rather than tobacco companies) as the example.
The NFL, and other similar entities, denied the effects of head trauma for financial reasons in the face of increasing scientific evidence to the contrary. There has been no such mounting of scientific evidence with regards to the alleged dangers of vaccines. None. You can claim there is, wish there was, or delude yourself into believing that the quacks and charlatans that make up the anti-vaccine “scientific” community are putting out good science.
But they’re not. And in a lot of cases, like Andrew Wakefield, they know they’re not. They have other motives, like, you know, making millions off an alternative vaccine or herding kids to their quackariffic autism-detox centers.
At the end of the day, I don’t follow the money, because everyone’s making it. I follow the science that makes the most sense.
I’m glad that Theo numbered the points in comment #389. Otherwise I might not have realized Theo had any. But why are there two Points #5?
As for moving from ridicule to self-evident? Well . . . dare I say my own point is self-evident ?
Given that I hadn’t been born in 1946, no.
Do you? You’d be pushing 80,
IliyaTheo.Follow the money…..www.nytimes.com/2012/07/03/business/glaxosmithkline-agrees-to-pay-3-billion-in-fraud-settlement.html
http://www.vaccinenation.org/2014/05/30/top-5-vaccine-companies-revenue-2013/
http://www.fiercevaccines.com/special-report/20-top-selling-vaccines/2012-09-25
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/03/business/glaxosmithkline-agrees-to-pay-3-billion-in-fraud-settlement.html
And [G-d] knows what else they will find. Maybe more Xmrv retroviruses?Heh.
Theo, as far as I can tell every single point in your post @ 389 is a blatant falsehood. Hell, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
This is science, Ken. In science you don’t follow the money, you follow the evidence.
So…got any?
Dammit. The strikeout should have been a blockquote.
Science? GSK committed fraud! It is a leading supplier of vaccines!
You’re all dummies if you are not getting paid by BigPharma.
What a laugh! Years of debating for zero money while Pharma is raking in millions. It’s the same old posters exercising their need to mentally whack off. I doubt if you changed anyone’s mind about the vaccine schedule.
Thank God my grandchildren are OK – vaccinations were held off until they were older.
My last post.
Oops sorry aluminum is in fact mutagenic.
Perhaps Theo will show us an aluminium-induced mutation! Perhaps he knows what ‘mutagenic’ means! Alas, I am skeptical on both points.
And God knows what else they will find. Maybe more Xmrv retroviruses?
It is somehow heartwarming to know that although Judy Mikowits was cashiered from science for incompetence and / or fraud, and her invention of “XMRV” became the target of reproach and mockery, there is still a place for her aboard the Antivax Failwagon, where “being caught making up evidence with Photoshop” is seen as a source of authority.
Ken, I’m trying to figure out what point you’re trying to make in your post @406.
Surely you’re not trying to suggest that because GSK was found guilty of promoting antidepressants for off-label uses and failing to report safety data about a diabetes drug, every study by every single researcher (employed by GSK or otherwise) and every public health agency on the planet attesting to the safety and efficacy of the vaccines found on the routine childhood immunization schedule must also be considered invalid?
I’m afraid I’ll have to interpret your post as an explicit admission that in fact you do not have any evidence to supports your claims regarding the dangers of routine vaccination.
Forgot one-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/pharmaceuticalsandchemicals/11438063/GlaxoSmithKline-bribery-scandal-led-to-13-fold-increase-in-China-whistleblower-reports.html
why are legislators trying to take away personal exemptions in 35 states?
Does anyone have any ideas as to which orifice Theo pulled this nugget? The Gazoogle advises me the 35 states (and the D of C) *maintain statistics* about the use of personal exemptions, but it would take an egregious act of stupidity to get from there to “trying to take away personal exemptions”.
If
vaccinesseat-belts are incredible life saving procedures we wouldn’t have to be forced, we would line up for them wouldn’t we. Anytime the govt tries to take domain over you or your child’s body that is a red flag. Abortion rights? The reason they want highvaccination ratesseat-belt usage is to blur the lines so that people won’t find out that theunvaccinatedunbelted are significantly healthier.Still waiting for you to offer any evidence demonstrating that the risk associated with routine childhood vaccination exceeds the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to the infectious diseases they protect against, ken.
If you’re unable to provide any, I strongly suggest you stick the flounce.
There’s the small issue that only 17 states have “philosophical exemptions,” which is what I tend to think of as “personal,” but sure.
I take it that it goes without saying that he shouldn’t be anticipated to have discerned what the text actually says.
The relevant passage was omitted from Babs’s official version from two days later.
This should be good.
Ken, be a good boy and go figure out what part of what you’re attempting to refer to involves a fraud count and what the actual resolution of this was.
I expect that you will report back promptly.
Obviously, it mutates The Epigenome, you stupid chief.
“Surely you’re not trying to suggest that because GSK was found guilty of promoting antidepressants for off-label uses and failing to report safety data about a diabetes drug, …….Vioxx killing 160,000 worldwide before withdrawn.. mass whooping cough vaccine failure……” DVT JVC
Well of course a few fuck ups are ok, they have learned their lesson or are they too big to fail. Why should we trust companies with absolutely no evidence of honorable work and consistent lies to make good eventually? The point is in Ken’s post – why on earth do you think they are worth supporting?
Let’s ask the 800 kids with narcolepsy that were given a totally useless swine flu vaccination last year under appeals to emotion like – you are all going to die. None of those kids will benefit now they have been permanently disabled. How many alt meds have killed and disabled on the levels that big pharma is guilty of ?
So in and out of moderation – either I am shitting the pants out of you or I am shitting you up – you decide. Not seen this kind of selective cherry picking since early Catholicism. It’s kind of funny David, every day you wake up and have to support this site! LOL, I wonder when the nervous breakdown kicks in – you can’t just leave it, can you? How can such an intellegent person spend all day with the likes of Narad and Jbanana? Nice friends you got there, what on earth must your wife think of the amount of time you are wasting here? Says a lot really, do you spend any time with your kids?
@ken – given your ability to barely string two sentences together, I believe the conversation would be better served should you stick with your flounce this time…..
On topic of things un-American, over on AoA there seems to be a report that Kent Heckenlively, Esq [sic] has had his appearance at the Commonwealth Club cancelled.
Perhaps someone at the Commonwealth Club has seen the light – or in this instance noticed the darkness.
I did send Dr Duffy at the Commonwealth Club a couple of emails pointing out that none of the speakers could be reasonably described as “whistleblowers” in any meaningful sense, and also providing a few links to some of (particularly Heckenlively’s) their anti vaccine stupidity…
@Johnny,
Citation needed.
I truly pity ken’s grandchildren, if he/she/it actually does, since they seem to have such an ignorant grandparent who would think nothing of putting his/her/its grandchildren at such unnecessary risk.
Also, showing johnny’s posts to an osteopathic doctor who practices at the hospital here. Made the doctor feel ashamed at him for considering himself to be in the same field as johnny.
Yes I hit all the points like I said we are early in the scientific investigation Ino the biological studies of vaccines. It’s self evident to us that pumping chemicals into babies is as destructive as concussions are to nfl players. Wake the fuck up already what part of that do you not understand.
Here we go mercola cannot be trusted but this blog can? He speaks the truth threatens pharma and he is called a quack.
All opinions. We will never convince each other. Our side will prevail in the long run. Just a matter of time
Have any of you offered up a theory for autoimmune diseases or autism?
FWIW, there are comments I could live without ever seeing again. These include:
Upon tripping the spam filter and going to moderation, declaring that people must be really scared of what the writer is saying.
On getting no response to a statement (or none from the person the writer really, really wanted one from), declaring that nobody can refute his/her/its argument.
On getting multiple responses, berating people for wasting their free time responding to them.
On getting multiple responses, boasting about how much of other people’s time was wasted responding to the writer.
The pharma shill gambit.
References to other people’s children. You don’t know their children. You don’t know the situations of their children. It’s foolish to say “you wouldn’t say that if your child had (condition)”, because someone will likely have a child with (condition). It’s foolish to advise people to spend more time with their children, because you run the risk of a comeback like “I was sterilized by mumps, so don’t have any” or “I was exposed to rubella during pregnancy so had a stillbirth” or “my children died of (something)”. Mentioning someone’s children in an argument is a bad ploy, unless you know something about that person’s children.
As for what Johnny said @ 250 about eradicating measles.One point that antivax types like to ignore,that needs to be driven home over and over again,was that measles was well on the way to being eradicated in the developed world,until St. Andrew came along and screwed things up.
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/09/13/2617061/measles-outbreak-vaccine-beliefs/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/01/23/how-the-u-s-went-from-eliminating-measles-to-a-measles-outbreak-at-disneyland/
As has been pointed out by Brian Deer,and others,countless times Andy had his own measles vaccine patented,and hoped he could discredit the existing MMR vaccine enough,so he could replace it with his own measles vaccine,and profit.
The antivax movement is one of the biggest financial windfalls Big Pharma ® ever had.
Li Ditz @268 PGP @321 You are slipping dangerously into neurodiversity territory there.Let’s not do that mmkay?Neurodiversity is merely the other side of a very bad penny as far as views on autism,as far as autism and intellectual disabilities are concerned.Both views are toxic and just as deadly.Both need to go.Profound learning disabilities,like I had,are often related to neurdevelopmental disorders,that can either be congenital or medical disorders.Anything from Fragile X,to fetal alcohol Syndrome,to Cerebral Palsy,to mitochondrial disease,like I have.They can greatly impact every area of functioning of life.It is possible
Narad@386
Maybe we ought to have “seance parties” to try an raise the ghost of John F Enders to scare some sense into the likes of Phildo.
@ Johnny:
The probable reason that you are ‘in and out of moderation’ is because you write out words like *sh!t* and *f@ck’. Notice that I don’t and am not moderated.
And the first post you submit with a new e-mail or ‘nym
And any posts containing more than 2 links IIRC.
@ Rich Scopie:
Thanks for doing that. I think that another anti-vaccine group’s presentation there was stopped as well.
Johnny @ 418,you really DO need too keep up with this stuff dear boy.
In 2010, a puzzling cluster of sudden-onset narcolepsy cases was reported in Europe among children vaccinated with GlaxoSmithKline’s Pandemrix flu vaccine against the H1N1 ‘swine flu’ that had caused a pandemic in 2009.
On 18 December 2013, researchers reported a possible connection between the vaccine and narcolepsy. In a paper published in Science Translational Medicine, they showed that people with narcolepsy produce immune cells called T cells that recognize hypocretin, a neurotransmitter that regulates wakefulness. People with narcolepsy tend to have low levels of hypocretin in neurons that control wakefulness, and the results supported the notion that autoimmune responses could be destroying the neurotransmitter.
The authors, led by immunologist Elizabeth Mellins and narcolepsy researcher Emmanuel Mignot of the Stanford School of Medicine in Palo Alto, California, went on to demonstrate that pieces of a flu protein often used in vaccines stimulated immune cells that recognize hypocretin. This suggested a mechanism by which the vaccine could contribute to narcolepsy in some people.
But on 31 July, the authors announced that they have been unable to repeat a key finding: that immune cells from people with narcolepsy respond to hypocretin more so than immune cells from people who do not have narcolepsy. “Because the validity of the conclusions reported in the study cannot be confirmed, we are retracting the article,” the team wrote.
The retraction is a setback for a field struggling to find an answer. “We continue to believe that the original scientific hypothesis remains a valid one that needs to be further explored,” said GlaxoSmithKline, a London-based pharmaceutical firm, in a statement. The company says that it is supporting research, including in its own labs, to explore the possible link between its vaccine and narcolepsy, and particularly to learn more about interactions between the vaccine and other risk factors in the people who developed the condition.
http://blogs.nature.com/news/2014/07/journal-retracts-paper-linking-vaccine-and-narcolepsy.html
BTW,this vaccine was never approved for use in the US.That is mentioned in this statement from the CDC.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/h1n1_narcolepsy_pandemrix.html
CDC recently published a study External Web Site Icon on the association between 2009 H1N1 influenza vaccines, 2010/2011 seasonal influenza vaccines, and narcolepsy. The analysis included more than 650,000 people who received the pandemic flu vaccine in 2009 and over 870,000 people who received the seasonal flu vaccine in 2010/2011. The study found that vaccination was not associated with an increased risk for narcolepsy.
While the Mikovitz-Heckenlively-Hooker event has been postponed, the moderator of the postponed event, Clare Danes, is boasting that she has booked RFKjr for April 7 at noon. It’s not yet on the published calendar:
http://www.commonwealthclub.org/events/filter/all/20150407
Evidently new events go live at noon. Stay tuned.
Theo @424
Have any of you offered up a theory for autoimmune diseases or autism?
There are new theories and autoimmune connections to autism being published about all the time.Even if we put aside the connection of autism and PANDAS/PANS and Anti-Neuronal Autoantibody connection,
https://www.autismspeaks.org/science/grants/anti-neuronal-autoantibodies-pandas-and-autism-spectrum-disorders
there are still loads more.Rather than point them all out,I did a Google on a blog I read every day,that I find essential for keeping up with all the advances in autism.Read the papers Dr. Whiteley talks about in these blog posts,and get back to us in a few days.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=%22questioning+answers%22+autoimmune
The company (GlaxxoSmithKline) says that it is supporting research, including in its own labs, to explore the possible link between its vaccine and narcolepsy, and particularly to learn more about interactions between the vaccine and other risk factors in the people who developed the condition.
Absolute rubbish. Everyone knows that vaccine companies never do safety testing and don’t care about possible interactions. They’re only in the business for the millions and millions of dollars they make off forced vaccinations.
Liz Ditz, what’s the back story on the Commonwealth Club’s anti-vaccine and anti-science guest presenters?
Roger Kulp @ 246. If I were you with your history of flip-flopping between posting comments on anti-vaccine and on science-based blogs, I’d stay away from commenting on neuro-diversity.
If you don’t like to hear about the advocacy activities of ASAN and other groups or read comments about neuro-diversity, perhaps Respectful Insolence is not the blog where you should be commenting.
On June 11, 2013, Christie Dames hosted “The Thinking Mom’s Revolution” for a talk.
http://www.commonwealthclub.org/events/2013-06-11/thinking-moms-revolution-taking-back-power-healing-our-kids
The TMR people wrote on July 19, 2013:
So this Christie Dames person has continued her anti-science, anti-vaccine advocacy.
Heh. Thanks Liz Ditz. I knew there had to be a back story for the Commonwealth Club’s choice of speakers.
And…here’s the YouTube video of the TMR presentation at the Commonwealth Club. (Christie Dames is the moderator):
RK: “You are slipping dangerously into neurodiversity territory there.Let’s not do that mmkay?Neurodiversity is merely the other side of a very bad penny as far as views on autism,as far as autism and intellectual disabilities are concerned.”
Apparently, you’re still using your former pals definition of neurodiversity. I don’t see what’s bad about autistic people advocating for themselves, or suggesting that different people may learn in different ways. Maybe you just think it’s bad that most ND people don’t hate themselves?
Yes, RFKjr will speak at the Commonwealth Club April
http://www.commonwealthclub.org/events/2015-04-07/robert-f-kennedy-jr-thimerosal-%E2%80%93-let-science-speak#sthash.EnV3l1Iq.dpuf
Why am I not surprised that Christie Dames snared Bobby Kennedy for a presentation at the Commonwealth Club?
Kennedy has been on an extended road trip showing up in every State which has proposed legislation to remove religious and/or personal belief exemptions for vaccination requirements for public school entry. He’s pathetic and still trying to be relevant by commissioning a new anti-Thimerosal book which cost him $200,000 of his considerable fortune.
High exemption rates among scientists. Clue
“That’s a curiosity to me, as well,” said Los Alamos schools superintendent Gene Schmidt of his district’s relatively high rate of vaccination exemptions among what he called “a pretty scientific and literate community.”
http://www.abqjournal.com/557820/news/los-alamos-top-in-nm-for-vaccine-exemptions.html
@ Theo
Perhaps something to do with Dunning Kruger?
Have any of you offered up a theory for autoimmune diseases or autism?
If “coming up with one’s own stupid idea” is to be a prerequisite for pointing and laughing at Theo’s stupid ideas, let the record show the latex of the common decorative spurge Poinsettia contains no end of toxins and allergenic proteins, and its rise to world windowsill domination correlates PERFECTLY with the rise in diagnoses of autism over the decades.
Also “A spurge’s syndrome”.
I see that it’s Happy Hour again.
Everyone is still waiting for you to cough up the “now as reported in the UK hundreds of cases of narcolepsy in kids from flu vaccination,” Philip Hills, Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex.
Squirm, Phildo, squirm.
Kinds sad that Theo, Johnny and Ken are the best we’re getting in terms of anti-vax commenters these days. Clearly the B-team. I guess the AoA minions are too busy planning their next rally or soliciting quack treatement ads to care.
“Remember the official CDC statement about the measles Disney fairy story,” Phildo? Ran away from that one yet again, as well?
It’s impressive that the Guardian is above your level of reading comprehension.
And that the whereabouts of an “unknown woman” are so well known.
If this was a D.O., he’s not.
We all know by know that the parents who are not vaccinating their children are highly educated. It’s not like they are bible thumpers in Kentucky. We are talking uber wealthy liberals in California. these are not kooks and cranks like you think. Much smartter and that Los alamos statistic adds even more credibility. I find that fact interesting.
Yup trust in vaccines is unraveleing right before your eyes. The Internet is making science easily accessible. Anyone with half a brain knows you don’t trust drug companies. All it takes is an open mind to consider both sides of the argument. When you examine both sides completely it’s a no fucking brainier. Of course if you already jabbed your children there is no changing your minds prolly the case with the posters here.
A few days ago Theo tried on “compelling evidence” as an IOU in lieu of evidence itself. “We all know by know” seems to serve the same place-holder purpose.
no fvcking brainier
That’s certainly how I feel after reading the comment.
@ Theo
Having a high education doesn’t mean much if it has nothing to do with medicine. High educated people are more prone to the Dunning-Kruger effect. They think they can do their own research, but they overestimate their ability to separate the good research from the bad.
Less educated people mostly know their limitations, so they trust the experts.
Politicians and people working in drug companies are also highly educated.
Yet you trust the latter to make good decisions but not the former.
I mean, allowing a company to poison half the people who would vote to elect you or keeping working for such a company and using their products seem really like bad decisions to me.
Fun fact: people adhering to weird groups like the Church of Hubology also tend to be highly educated. A few French CNRS scientists have been known to be sympathetic, if not outright members.
” autoimmune diseases”
Well that is a dustbin diagnosis for doctors having no clue what the F is going on. RA is not autoimmune, turning off repair with medication is not treatment either.
At the end of the day it is about evidence and the modern medical view has that sewn up with its mythical peer review, not unlike many Catholic and other religious ‘courts’.
Bo Pal is a good example of multinational companies quite prepared to poison whole nations, why are vaccine companies any different?
Sorry if you work for these assholes and I understand your insecurity and defensiveness but at some point it has to stop.
Lots of people recover from the medical autoimmune nightmare without recourse to medication and why should that be made illegal or controlled by the CDC or FDA. These groups are quite happy to rubbers stamp mass poisonings with medications and let companies get away with it.
Your experts took us to war with the middle east, destabilized world security and fucked the banking system so why should the ordinary citizen trust its medical system in its entirety with no critique?
I becomes difficult to take any kind of dialogue seriously when you keep moderating everything – it kind of undermines your appeals to authority – which quite frankly are Micky mouse most of the time.
Perhaps people in Kentucky are smarter than you think.
As has been noted before, there are both liberal and conservative rationalizations for antivaccine sentiment. Just because someone is “uber wealthy” (I presume that means they made their money from Uber) or a liberal does not rule out being a kook or a crank.
I suppose all those dozens of different autoantibodies that can be measured, like rheumatoid factor, are imaginary. Does your ignorance have no limits?
If you want to avoid moderation, don’t use profanities and use no more than two links.
I think there is more moderation on anti-vaccination sites, or sites that promote quackery for cancer, than on this blog.
I get the impression every fool can drop his or her far of ideas in the comments. Yes, sometimes people have to wait till they see their braindroppings appear, but judging from what I’ve read from Johnny (the one who currently is most present) Theo and various others, one has to write really, really foolish things to be moderated here.
No particular reason. If you’ve got valid criticism, state it.
If you really feel the need to swear in a post but don’t want to go to moderation, I can suggest the following:
– frack
– bowb
– smeg
– yarbles
– tanj
– gaLAXy
– zark
– belgium
Are you addressing some sort of floating pronominal antecedent here? You know perfectly well how to avoid moderation, so either you’re too drunk to successfully manage the task or it’s just another rote evasion tactic in your painfully limited repertoire.
“Dialogue,” indeed.
Example, “In message 454 above, Johnny was so fracking upset he really bowbed up his meaning and became smegging incomprehensible. If he has a point, I wish he’d hitch up his yarbles and make it. That or he can zark off.”
Oh, dear, I guess I’d better sell my stock in Bo Pal.
More educated on average than your typical classical osteopath, perhaps, but otherwise, not so much.
I don’t consider a random baccalaureate degree to represent “highly educated,” sorry. The fact that the dingbats who proudly trot this line out ad nauseam do just adds to the comic value.
“I suppose all those dozens of different autoantibodies that can be measured, like rheumatoid factor, are imaginary. Does your ignorance have no limits?” Kreb….
They are markers dear boy, they don’t cause the disease. Research has shown us that the relationship between suppressed atopy and RA are genetically connected via the Runx 1 gene. The research even suggests that the two diseases are interchangeable. Ask anyone who has gone down the atopic road via steroids and immunosuppressants. You know those drugs that are supposed to stop distress but then lead to irreversible side effects. Research shows that the re emergence of atopy can also co incide with the loss of RA factors that you so love, without the use of meds as well.
What is imaginary Krebby is that they somehow magikly cause the disease and because doctors can’t ‘treat’ them they call it auto immunity. If you bothered to track the life of someone who kept on getting just palliative treatment for atopy you would see that correlation for yourself but I am not holding my breath. You need to get out past the pubmed CDC world of fake believe Krebby, there is a whole other world waiting to be discovered that isn’t based on pills or creams.
The point about educated people coming to different conclusions than you is a valid one. There are 2 sides to this story not 1!
That is a fact. We are not all idiots for not vaccinating. lets find some middle ground here. Maybe if the USA was still at 1983 vaccine levels of 10 doses instead of 49 doses in 2015 we could live with the idea of jabbing our kids. Japan and Sweden are at 11 doses. Are we smarter than them? of course not. Actually we are dumber because we let crony capitalism seep into the health care system.
Something is very very wrong in this country with our children. What is the cost to society for the additional 39 doses added over the last 20 years?
Science is not looking at this incremental increase to see how it effects children. Great so we have little if any measles and chickenpox. But exploding allergies, Adhd, asthma and auto immune diseases. Something has impacted our childs immune systems. I wonder what it could be? hmmm possibly Vaccines? no way thats impossible the medical establishment would have caught this a long time ago. that can’t be true. We trust the CDC and FDA and our doctors to protect our kids. Sadly thats not true. And its easily proven. NOW
Here is an interesting article. WAIT the parents are a fraud and are lying right?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3008822/Tasha-David-chose-not-vaccinate-children-SIX-older-kids-suffered-autism-language-disorders-ADHD.html
Narad has obviously had one flu jab too many, I thought we could have 10,000 vaccines or was that just some Offit chaff?
If you want to look at a good study that shows autoimmune pathways for most diseases affecting us now look at the Purdue studies that looked at vaccinated versus non vaxx split dog litters. It is why top breeders and up to speed dog and pet owners are now not vaccinating.
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/purdue-vaccination-studies/
I would be happy for my kids to be part of the non vaxx cohort and thousands of others would too. Until this is done you will never be able to convince anyone who can read a book and go to a lecture by an ex vaccine scientist. Appeals to authority are actually part of your problem, no one believes in this Nirvana of ‘doctors know best’ anymore because we all know someone who has turned away from chronic medication regiemes and taken control of their own health. Asthma and eczema are two great examples of modern medical fail. period
Fυckin’ Type 1 diabetes, how does it work?
Yes, this must have been a coincidence (see PMID 12931243 for a dated summary).
Yes, one must not turn off natural “repair.”
Definitely a strong recommendation for the insight to be found at the Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex, Phildo.
I take it that this is either an assertion by Philip Hills that his dog has repeatedly managed to successfully inseminate his wife or that he is inviting ruthless mockery of his imaginary understanding of statistics.
C’mon, Phildo, give me a study design. It’ll be uproarious.
Reflexive non sequitur duly noted, Phildo.
@
IliyaTHEO:Educated in what? A Ph.D. in Classics doesn’t make somebody an expert in epidemeology any more than an MD makes somebody an expert in economics. And I doubt you’ve got a degree, let alone an advanced one, in anything, so there’s not much reason to put yourself in your admired group of “educated” anti-vaxxers to begin with.
I suppose this is literally true, but one side is based in reality and one side is not.
That’s a blatant lie.
Oh, and I see you’re quoting the Daily Fail as “proof” of… something. Nice one.
Oops-someone’s not reading the definitive truth on this blog……
http://www.abqjournal.com/557820/news/los-alamos-top-in-nm-for-vaccine-exemptions.html
“I suppose this is literally true, but one side is based in reality and one side is not.” JP
The dilemma here is that you think industry funded peer reviewed published medical studies are reality!
Most ordinary citizens see your reality for the value that it has in share prices and choose not to comply with its rulings.
http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2011/Adverse-Effects-of-Vaccines-Evidence-and-Causality.aspxThe committee finds that evidence convincingly supports a causal relationship between some vaccines and some adverse events—such as MMR, varicella zoster, influenza, hepatitis B, meningococcal, and tetanus-containing vaccines linked to anaphylaxis. Additionally, evidence favors rejection of five vaccine-adverse event relationships, including MMR vaccine and autism and inactivated influenza vaccine and asthma episodes.
However, for the majority of cases (135 vaccine-adverse event pairs), the evidence was inadequate to accept or reject a causal relationship. Overall, the committee concludes that few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines.
Sounds like sloppy science to me-” For the majority of cases(135 vaccine-adverse event pairs), the evidence was inadequate……… But they conclude “Overall……”
“I suppose this is literally true, but one side is based in reality and one side is not.” JP
The dilemma here is that you think industry funded peer reviewed published medical studies are reality!
Most ordinary citizens see your reality for the value that it has in share prices and choose not to comply with its rulings.
I assume Narad read the Purdue study and his belief system collapsed. Unable to engage in a constructive argument about anything beyond his own helmet polishing he is unable to grasp even the most basic of facts and discuss them.
I am not, and never have been Mr Hill. Period
#473 JP -corrected link…….
http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2011/Adverse-Effects-of-Vaccines-Evidence-and-Causality.aspx
I mean Theo it is a pretty dull ride here, it only exists to gather the anti view and then use that to diss anything that shows how crap vaccination is. They are so paranoid they even think you are someone you are not –
Thanks for the links Johnny- I’m open-minded. I come from the generation that only had the small pox vaccine up until the age of 13. At that time the polio vaccine was introduced and it was a free choice in my Catholic school. One was allowed to opt out.
I come from a very very large extended family with no measles ever, not heard of in my schools either. I did have chicken pox, german measles and mumps- no big deal.
If one researches the Hep B vaccine in the US (not denying HBV infection a major problem in Asia) the reasons for it’s introduction into the schedule seems flimsy at best. It’s completely unnecessary to give this to infants of non-HBV infected mothers on the first day of birth.
My G-d, but you people are dense. It’s like talking to a brick wall.
ken, go back and look at that link you showed us again, or read the bit you freaking excerpted again. I’m not sure what you think it “proves.” Nobody here denies that vaccines can cause adverse reactions, like anaphylaxis, in rare instances. But the risk of injury from a vaccine is orders of freaking magnitude lower than the risk of death or serious injury from VPD. And the pet causal connections of the anti-vaxxers – like, say, MMR causing autism – are rejected.
Lucky you? I also come from a very, very large extended family with no measles as far as I can remember, and I’m sure farther back, because we were all f*cking vaccinated against it.
Yeah, and my grandma’s 87 years old and still smokes a pack a day, so smoking must be just fine and dandy for your heath, right? I mean, it’s not like some people might make it through vaccine-preventable diseases without a hitch, and other people, mostly kids, might, say, die from them. But I guess we can just tell those kids’ parents it’s “no big deal.”
#481 You are indulging in hyperbole again. There was no reason to increase the schedule to the maximum it is now. My children were vaccinted in 1968 and 1970 and they are doing fine and their children are fine. It is not an all or one issue- anti,
pro for God’s sakes. This is bullying and using scare tactics and alienating a lot of parents who have seen autism. There are now 2 autism cases among my cousins’ grandchildren. Why? No one has provided any answers to them. Yes they were vaccinated.
This curious over-estimation of how many people share antivaxxers’ views is very strange:
On what planet is 1.8% of the population “most ordinary citizens”?
JP What does smoking have to do with vaccines BTW?
Some people have no adverse reactions to vaccines but the incredible increase in childhood illnesses should give one pause-
Vaccines are messing around with an immature immune system with individual variations. Poling case- mitochondrial disorder.
How many more kids might have it? Not relevant?
Says who? You? Based on what? Maybe the schedule is where it is now because it provides the optimal level of protection against disease for a vulnerable population, i.e. children.
If you can provide an actual rationale for some sort of “grey area” between “pro” and “anti” like a delayed vaccination schedule, and some actual evidence to support it in lieu of the current schedule, I’m sure we’d all be fascinated. Otherwise, not so much.
Snookums, I’ve been bullied, and this is not bullying. When people are exasperated with stupidity and the arrogance of ignorance, they may not respond in the way you think is most “polite,” but tough.
Considering you come from a “very, very large extended family,” this is hardly surprising and can be explained by statistically normal incidence, probably.
Yeah, so we haven’t entirely worked out the causes of developmental disorders yet. Genetics, de novo mutations, there are a lot of things that are probable causes/contributors. Vaccines ain’t on of ’em, though.
You’re not terribly bright, are you? You made a really stupid inference based on anecdotal evidence – “well, I had the mumps, etc., and I was just fine, so it’s no big deal!” I provided you with an example of a similar inference to try to show what a stupid approach you’re using.
the incredible increase in childhood illnesses should give one pause-
Which childhood diseases? Do you have any actually</b plausible reasons to suspect vaccines in the etiology of any of these illnesses, or are you just JAQing off?
The increase in autisms rates can be pretty much completely explained by a change in the diagnostic criteria for ASD disorders, increasing awareness of autism and Asperger's, and a desire among parents to obtain services from schools, etc., which only come with a diagnosis.
^ Bah, sorry for the tag fail. There’s a typo or two in there, too.
If you want to avoid moderation, don’t use profanities and use no more than two links.
I believe that “Johnny Labile” has been placed in moderation by default, having proven his untrustworthiness by generating more sockpuppets than a G.R.R. Martin novel has characters, and by making up email identifiers.
In his defense, he is (if he has any sense) clearing his browser’s history and cache after each furtive session on the Interweb, and he can’t be expected to remember which ID he used last time.
ken,
What “incredible increase in childhood illnesses” are you referring to? Before routine vaccination almost all children got measles, mumps and rubella, and now hardly any do. The dramatic fall in infant mortality is also evidence for a large reduction in childhood illnesses.
If you mean autism, the increase is almost certainly due to changes in diagnostic criteria and diagnostic substitution. I used to volunteer at a hospital for the ‘mentally handicapped’ in the late 70s and early 80s and there were hundreds of residents hidden away from public view, many of whom would now be diagnosed with autism. They are now out in the community, leading ignorant people to believe there is a ‘tsunami of autism’.
If you mean ADD and ADHD, since the term was only invented in the 80s it isn’t surprising more children are now diagnosed with the condition. There is no evidence for a link between vaccines and these conditions.
If you are referring to allergies, the likelihood is that improved hygiene is responsible. Vaccines are not associated with allergies, and neither are autoimmune diseases; in fact by reducing infections vaccine very probably reduce the risk of autoimmunity.
What else could you mean? Diabetes? No sign of any link (PMID: 11731639).
Yes, you just happen to spontaneously generate identical text and have the same “attribution” style, inconsistently both claim to have never heard of Philip Hills and praise his site, are desperately fixated on denying it, and take pains to misspell “Hills.”
Remember, Phildo, your wife’s fond of Twitter.
It’s an allegory, peabrain. Just as there are people who smoked a pack of ciggies a day and lived to a ripe old age, so are there people who had all the childhood diseases and survived with no lasting negative sequelae. Before vaccines were introduced, most children ate organic, were breastfed, got plenty of exercise and still died from those diseases. In 1650 the odds of reaching 18 were 1 in 3. That was because measles, mumps, rubella, diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, smallpox, hepatitis, polio and chickenpox could (and all too often did) kill.
Philip Hills, Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex, of course, only believes in “peer reviewed published medical studies” that are figments of his imagination.
Enjoy, Phildo.
#491 You’re confusing allegory with analogy.
the Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex
Narad is forgetting, it is now the The Hope Osteopath and Acupuncture Clinic to reflect the inclusive, syncretic nature of the family scam.
The website emphasises the classical traditionality of the acupuncture and the fresh-forged option of “cosmetic acupuncture”. It is guided by the usual ethical principle, “It is immoral to leave a sucker in possession of money”.
ken, okay, I’ll grant you that. Nevertheless, you haven’t tackled or tried to refute what I said about the death rate of these diseases before vaccines become available.
Cosmetic acupuncture?
Ah, a healthy flow of imaginary Qi along those imaginary meridians makes the gullible imagine they look more attractive.
Japan and Sweden are at 11 doses.
I am SHOCKED AND AMAZED at Theo’s lack of basic counting skills:
http://www.nih.go.jp/niid/images/vaccine/schedule/2014/EN20140401.pdf
These things can happen when one is in the habit of proudly dragging in random carcasses, in this case a six-year-old GR “special report” (PDF) that was of questionable accuracy when it was “fresh.”
Using their “counting rules,” Japan is at 30 and Sweden is at 25.
one is in the habit of proudly dragging in random carcasses
Ah, I see you are used to the company of cats.
The status of this novelty remains obscure to me. Indeed, the amateurish page slapped together for this brand reveals that Phildo hasn’t changed the signage.
I’m sticking with the more popular form for the time being.
Narad, you must be raw with chaffing. So if I cut and paste anyone does that mean I am them? Still not Mr Hillllls no matter how its spelt or writtennn. Not interested in homeoppathy or Acccumpunture and necver used it.
” Before vaccines were introduced, most children ate organic, were breastfed, got plenty of exercise and still died from those diseases. In 1650 the odds of reaching 18 were 1 in 3. ” Julie
Well that is a bullshit fairy story if ever! The sewage system was open plan and the commonest drink was beer because the water was so toxic. Did you read that in Hans Christian Offit or was that a new medical Disney chapter we have all missed?
So that sticky wall in Narad’s bedroom must be due to his reading of the Purdue study that clearly showed the autoimmune pathways generated by vaccinations in dogs. I suppose to that his/her sudden realisation that the atopic pathway and the Runx 1 gene share a home with RA and Lupus may actually create a small chink of light in his rational. This may lead him to put 3 together and reallise that suppressing all those annoying little childhood conditions sets the adult up for a degenerative entropy that was entirely avoidable.
We can but dream of such days, in the meantime, clean up before mother comes in.
Still not Mr Hilll nor never have been.
Narad, you must be raw with chaffing. So if I cut and paste anyone does that mean I am them? Still not Mr Hillllls no matter how its spelt or writtennn. Not interested in homeoppathy or Acccumpunture and necver used it.
” Before vaccines were introduced, most children ate organic, were breastfed, got plenty of exercise and still died from those diseases. In 1650 the odds of reaching 18 were 1 in 3. ” Julie
Well that is a bullshit fairy story if ever! The sewage system was open plan and the commonest drink was beer because the water was so toxic. Did you read that in Hans Christian Offit or was that a new medical Disney chapter we have all missed?
So that sticky wall in Narad’s bedroom must be due to his reading of the Purdue study that clearly showed the autoimmune pathways generated by vaccinations in dogs. I suppose to that his/her sudden realisation that the atopic pathway and the Runx 1 gene share a home with RA and Lupus may actually create a small chink of light in his rational. This may lead him to put 3 together and reallise that suppressing all those annoying little childhood conditions sets the adult up for a degenerative entropy that was entirely avoidable.
We can but dream of such days, in the meantime, clean up before mother comes in.
Still not Mr Hilll nor never have been.
Come on you chickens. Soon as its nailed you moderate. This is why the pro vaccine stance is so dodgy, you are afraid of the dam bursting. We can feel the fear. I don’t swear or post double links, that’s your prerogative. let’s have a discussion on the connection between diseases, where’s the science in you? It’s all Pharma PR and you should be ashamed.
” Before vaccines were introduced, most children ate organic, were breastfed, got plenty of exercise and still died from those diseases. In 1650 the odds of reaching 18 were 1 in 3. ” Julie
Well that is a bullshit fairy story if ever! The sewage system was open plan and the commonest drink was beer because the water was so toxic. Did you read that in Hans Christian Offit or was that a new medical Disney chapter we have all missed?
So that sticky wall in Narad’s bedroom must be due to his reading of the Purdue study that clearly showed the autoimmune pathways generated by vaccinations in dogs. I suppose to that his/her sudden realisation that the atopic pathway and the Runx 1 gene share a home with RA and Lupus may actually create a small chink of light in his rational. This may lead him to put 3 together and reallise that suppressing all those annoying little childhood conditions sets the adult up for a degenerative entropy that was entirely avoidable.
We can but dream of such days, in the meantime, clean up before mother comes in.
Still not Mr Hilll nor never have been.
So now you will only post a shorty! Well I am still not Mr Hilll and never have been, I don’t like accupuncture – its bull and so is homeopathy.
If by fear, you mean ennui, then, yeah.
We can feel the fear.
Ultravox!
Considering Johnny posted the same comment 3 times, ennui is definitely the answer. He’s boring. He runs away from the facts and prefers his own. And he’s a pro at moving goal posts. Gotta give him that much.
See above, dumbfυck.
Orac writes, ”
“They claim that they are “not antivaccine” and are “pro-vaccine safety,” but you will never, ever see any of them willing to provide an example of a vaccine they consider sufficiently safe and effective to use it on their children.”
MjD says,
How can we consider vaccines sufficiently safe when the FDA advises not to be misled by “Latex-free” on medical packaging including vaccines?
http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm342641.htm
Gardasil-9 states, “Vials and prefilled syringes components are latex free.”
http://www.merck.ca/assets/en/pdf/products/GARDASIL_9-PM_E.pdf
In truth, it’s all about provaccine safety so let’s keep talking about it.
Johnny:
What part of it do you believe to be untrue, numbskull?
Almost none of the diseases I mentioned were water-borne. While sanitation systems reduced diseases like polio, typhus and cholera, they did nothing for the other diseases I mentioned.
Your “refutation” wasn’t the slam dunk you thought it was.
Go away MjD. You add nothing to the conversations taking place on Respectful Insolence.
re # 453 ( paraphrase)
Experts caused war, instability and the banking crisis so why believe in medical science?
AS IF those scenarios were one and the same, involve the same people and all add up to MALFEASANCE!!!!
In General!!!!!
EVERYWHERE!
Don’t trust experts!!
Right, this type of penetrating analysis is presented frequently at PRN… Beware the Cult of the Experts!
Was it really the *experts* who caused the war and the economic crisis or was it people with power and entrenched interests who lied and manipulated to benefit themselves?
I think that most experts were on the sidelines and generally warned the public about possible negative consequences associated with both war in the Middle East and the follies of the early-mid-2000s financial scene. I certainly heard them.
THUS the quoted message is a way to promote distrust of SBM and invite trust in anyone who is NOT associated with its fabled den of thieves.
It is simultaneously a method to distract the audience away from examining what possible motivations and conflicts of interests the Truth Teller ™ might have.
They have many, primarily involving feeding their egos and wallets. Every earth-shattering news flash Mike Adams presents somehow inks up to a product or service he provides and from which he benefits.
Christie Dames is the person who has booked Mitkovitz and latterly, Kenndey, for the Commonwealth Club.
Christie Dames’s letter in the local paper agitating against SB277, the one that would eliminate the personal belief exemption:
http://www.marinij.com/opinion/20150326/marin-ij-readers-forum-for-march-27
I have no idea what “test” Dames is nattering on about — let alone the false notion that children are “harmed” by vaccination.
@Liz #515
I can’t say what Ms. Dames is referring to, but perhaps tests for mitochondrial abnormalities? I think there is rather good evidence that children with mitochondrial diseases have a high rate of adverse reactions to vaccines. But I don’t know that tests have yet been developed for it. Or maybe she’s just talking about a complete DNA analysis for the child?
BTW, it’s not a false notion that children are ‘harmed’ by vaccination. It’s a fact that some are. Disagreements about about which reactions are reasonable to attribute to vaccination and what that rate truly is, but the idea that children can be harmed, even die, due to reactions to vaccinates is part of the informed consent that parents sign up to when they agree to get their child vaccinated.
Dr Beth says: “I think there is rather good evidence that children with mitochondrial diseases have a high rate of adverse reactions to vaccines.”
But if Dr Beth took the trouble to get a better education, she might learn that there is rather good evidence that children with mitochondrial diseases have a high rate of adverse reactions to fever.
So is it smart to leave such children exposed to infectious disease?
Back to Dr Beth, of the University of Google.
@517
You seem to think you have contradicted what I just said.
You didn’t. A common side-effect of vaccination is a high fever. Hence, since children with mitochondrial disease have a high rate of adverse reaction to fever, it would follow they would have a high rate of adverse reaction to vaccination.
This lesson in logic cheerfully provided by Dr. Beth (Ph.D. in mathematics)
“A common side-effect of vaccination is a high fever.”
Depends on your definitions of “common” and “high fever”.
Mild febrile reactions to vaccines are fairly common (i.e. 1 in 6 kids who get MMR). Truly high fever (105F or more) is reported to occur in 1 of 16,000 children who get the DtaP vaccine.
The rate of those reactions needs to be examined not only in light of fevers seen with vaccine-preventable diseases, but the frequency of mlld to high fevers run by kids getting colds, flu and other childhood infections.
I would like to see this “rather good evidence” that kids with mitochondrial disorders have a high rate of adverse effects from vaccines. The prevailing evidence suggests otherwise.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2603512/
There are tests available that can show exactly if a child is predisposed to an autoimmune problem if given certain vaccines. For only $100 parents can test to show if a child will be negatively affected.
If people want medical certificates and have $100, I am confident that ‘Doctors Data’ or some other scammers will come along to meet the demand.
” That was because measles, mumps, rubella, diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, smallpox, hepatitis, polio and chickenpox could (and all too often did) kill.” Julian hysteria on diseases
Julian, the people that die from these diseases today live in shitty war-torn surroundings, with raw sewage, no hygiene to talk of and diet that is deficient in basic nutrition. That has a direct relationship with survival, not some mythical medical magik called vaccination. It is well known that the vaccinations you so love become less effective, the closer to the equator you get. I know clean water and somewhere to shit is difficult to float on the stock-market but maybe that shouldn’t take priority here.
I gather that Narad has rubbed it all away with excitement over seeing the genetically related conditions of Psoriasis RA and Lupus, and that they, based on research, have a relationship. That means all those kids that you spread steroids on and give asthma who then go on to develop RA as an adult can thank you for suppressing that fever they had and gave them cookies and milk instead.. Ohh goody you can prescribe an immuno suppressant now like a TNFI so it’s good for market progression too.
3 posts the same because this ancient site randomly decides on moderation, hold up and censorship, unlike the vaccine lapdogs who can post qwana endlessly.
Come on Narad and Julian, let’s see some comment on the Purdue study that clearly dared to show that vaccinations precipitate immune system disasters – or is it too painful to comment.
Better sell those shares while you can……………
I love this debate. The denial on this blog is stunning. The corruption denial,profit motive denial, follow the money denial, easily manipulated epidemiologic study’s denial, ignore vaccine history denial, ignore sanitation, personal hygiene, clean water denial, nutrition denial, weeping parents of vaccine children injured denial, medical monopoly based on chemicals denial. Aluminum deposits in the brain denial. No long term safety studies denial. The FDA and CDC serves pharma denial. Vaccines contain toxins denial, GMOs are dangerous denial. Sv-40 causes cancer denial, Xmrv retro virus came from contaminated vaccines and infected millions denial. Yeah man vaccines are safe alright and the stock market isn’t rigged either and your medical doctor wasn’t brainwashed by drug companies in med school and his continuing eduction is funded by drug companies. Have you thought about the depth of your denial here? Why do you think we have so much sickness and no cures? don’t you folks get it something is very very wrong in the world of healthcare. And as soon as a doctor shines a light on the truth they are quickly called quacks and you eat it right up like sheep And ignore them. Prices are going through the roof yet we have never been more chronically I’ll Go ahead keep trusting MD directed medicine to your demise.keep getting your annual flu shot with Mercury with a 23% effectiveness when all you need to do is take vit d3 and vit c. Where wellness comes from the end of needle containing monkey kidney cells. Aluminum, polysorbate 80, msg and formaldehyde. Smh wow you are really drinking the koolaid. @ Johnny your funny and that dog study was impressive.
Health is immunity
Dr Beth. I didn’t think I contradicted what you said, at all. And that you thought I had only highlights your lack of education in biomedicine.
Bo Pal is a good example of multinational companies
“Bo Pal” is of course the corporation originally founded by Bo Peep, using the insurance money from her lost flock.
The denial on this blog is stunning
From some of the posters, yes.
From some of the posters, yes.
I don’t know if it’s “denial” when the commenter is not actually reading comments.
It is slightly sad and mostly funny to see
IliyaTHEO (rather self aggrandizing new ‘nym, really) reduced to a pile of inanely gibbering goo who seems only capable of sticking his fingers in his ears and yelling, “NUH NUH NUH, NUTRITION! I’M RIGHT AND YOU’RE WRONG, BRAINWASHING, BIG PHARMA! VIT D!”The first bit actually read a little bit like some sort of unintentional beat poetry, in the manner of Allen Ginsburg, except really bad.
Allen Ginsberg, that is.
How does that work?
Was the spelling changed after the lustre came off of Beau Pal?
Isn’t Nutrition! one of the songs from Fiddler on the Roof?
Xmrv retro virus came from contaminated vaccines
How does that work?
An unexpected reaction between the phlogiston and polywater excipients.
What sphinx of cement and aluminum bashed open their skulls and ate up their brains and imagination?
I think that’s from one of Clark Ashton Smith’s horror stories.
@ JP:
That’s hilarious!
I am currently conjuring up an image of someone who looks a bit like Ginsberg standing on a dimly lit stage reading from a list of woo-filled RI comments for several hours and calling it ‘performance art’.
And believe me, I’ve seen performance art that approaches that level of inelegance.
I sincerely regret missing the surrealist performance art period of a good friend of mine – this was before we met, after he dropped out of college at the U of Nebraska, worked and saved up a bunch of money and lit out for the West Coast, and before he ended up on a psych ward following his one and only psychotic break and was more or less taken back to Nebraska by his parents.*
Ginsberg’s Howl actually reminds me of my general crowd, actually, except that one of us somehow ended up in PhD school.
RE: bad comments turned into poetry/performance art: I am feeling somewhat inspired and something entertaining may come of it. Stay tuned.
*He once read me his file from the place where he’d been kept for a week, about 6 days longer than necessary, and the first sentence goes: “Subject is a complete failure in every arena of life: school, jobs, relationships.” He ended up finishing a BA, is married, and has a job (sort of), so there, I guess.
What this 16-year-old study?
These are certainly not ” immune system disasters”, and I see no follow-up to show that any of these dogs actually developed autoimmune diseases.
A veterinary website states:
I’m all fingers and thumbs tonight – that should be veterinary website. Must get some sleep.
Can’t find anything in Orac’s archive about this.
Clustering of cases of insulin dependent diabetes (IDDM) occurring three years after hemophilus influenza B (HiB) immunization support causal relationship between immunization and IDDM.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12482192
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22934546
JP at #486 read #538
Ah, it looks like ken is dragging in some crap “studies” done by John Classen of Classen Immunotherapies Inc. Gee, nice one.
So I was going over THEO’s wall-of-text stupidity, and I decided that it can’t really be made any dumber or more entertaining than it already is, but some line breaks and extra punctuation add to the sort of terrible-beat-poet vibe I got from it. For maximum enjoyment, imagine it being read by Fred Milton, beat poodle.
The corruption denial!
profit motive denial!
follow the money denial!
easily manipulated epidemiologic studies denial!
ignore vaccine history denial!
ignore sanitation, personal hygiene, clean water denial!
nutrition denial!
weeping parents of vaccine children injured denial!
medical monopoly based on chemicals denial!
Aluminum deposits in the brain denial!
No long term safety studies denial!
The FDA and CDC serves pharma denial!
Vaccines contain toxins denial!
GMOs are dangerous denial!
Sv-40 causes cancer denial!
Xmrv retro virus came from contaminated vaccines and infected millions denial!
Yeah, man. Health is immunity.
#540 And exactly what are your qualifications determining this is crap?
Ken, as a research scientist developing immunologic therapies for Type 1 Diabetes I can categorically state that the hypothesis you are pushing here is utter cr@p. A, T1D (nobody calls it IDDM unless they’ve been hiding under a rock for 20 years) is mainly genetic. B, it maps to preexisting susceptibility loci (HLA, stat5a, ptpn22) rather than your b.s. vaccine theory. C, There is no epitome overlap between the HiB antigen and any of the antigens involved in T1D. D, the HiB vaccine is a subunit vaccine with alum and stimulates B cells and CD4 T cells while T1D is caused by CD8 T cells. Epic fail. Complete and udder lack of any understanding of the systems. Morons.
*epitope
#543 I am not pushing anything. Please tell that to PubMed. I’m sure they would appreciate being called morons.
Um, a brain? Some research and reading comprehension skill? Having the sense to check who the author of a paper is and whether or not they’re a credible scientist or have any integrity at all, and say, any COIs like peddling some sort of bizarre idiocy?
^Should be skills, plural, I suppose.
#543 also known as JP utter not udder
@ken:
If you are thinking, ken, that J.W.Chaplin and myself are the same person, you are sorely mistaken, but at least you have amused me briefly.
In light of the your-experts-led-us-to-war-in-the-middle-east-and-f%cked-the-banking-system stuff, I’m guessing that particular show is not a fan favorite.
Although it’s sometimes difficult to say whether people who swallow and regurgitate that kind of crap really know what they’re saying. They could just be fools for propaganda..
I suppose that should be “the provenance of what they’re saying.”
To be fair.
Ken, PubMed indexes cr@p all the time. What do you think 99% of the articles in Medical Hypotheses are?
And yes, it should have been utter. Autocorrect on my phone is erratic and more than doubles the time required to respond to your brainless regurgitation of baseless cr@p.
#552 Good Luck with your research. I’ll overlook your insults as goes along with the territory of hard, painstaking work with slow results and little recognition. Watch out for the burn-out syndrome.
PS My children were vaccinated, born in 68 and 70 doing fine
with less vaccines, grandchildren also.
Again, so what? I imagine your kids probably had the chickenpox, as I did, having just missed the vaccine as a kid. I don’t really see how a week or two of extra misery is something to bandy about as, like, some part of the “good old days” or something.
In any case, sweetheart, if we’re feeling free to be pedantic here, it should be “fewer vaccines,” not “less vaccines,” and also, your sentence is so poorly worded and thoughtless as to be basically meaningless.
Oh, in terms of chickenpox, I should have said “an extra week or two of misery along with extra risk of serious/permanent injury or death.” I mean, do you like watching kids suffer or something?
Ken, that’s “fewer vaccines”.
Thanks for your good wishes. I work for the health and well-being of both well-meaning idiots and normal people. Just don’t spread baseless fear, uncertainty, and doubt to make my job harder and we’ll be all good.
less |les|
adjective & pronoun
a smaller amount of; not as much :
@558:
Now look up “mass noun” and “count noun”.
Just reduce the adverse effects of vaccines as stated on the package inserts and everone will be much happier. Hopefully, there will be less collateral damage in the “war” against VPDs.
The “adverse effects” on the package insert are mostly CYA legalese bullshıt.
Now that dying in a car crash is down as a death
“due to” Gardasil, the lawyers will probably add that to the package insert. It’s all cr@p.
All these one-in-a-million “effects” are mostly just coincidence. Even if you lived 100 years, 52 minutes and 36 seconds are a millionth of your life. Anything that happened that soon after vaccination or any other event could be attributed to causation, when it’s nothing but coincidence.
“Million-in-one” is just a euphemism for a probability that’s too small to measure and consistent with zero.
Johnny @521:
Riley Hughes, a one month old baby, died of pertussis in Australia. I have Facebook friends from there, and I don’t think Australia is currently anything like the “Mad Max” films. Ditto Germany, where that UNVACCINATED child died of Measles.
You. Got. Nothin’.
and vaccine safety-
http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/Recalls/ucm053289.htm
Yeah, it’s a good thing that vaccine safety is being monitored and that very rare batches that can’t be assured to be safe are recalled, isn’t it?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22934546
Ah, one of the Bentham stable of bottom-feeding mockademic pay-to-print pukefunnels!
The main part of Classen’s research into safer vaccines seems to consist of staking out new territory for patent trolling.
http://www.vaccines.net/patentin.htm
The study does start by saying that antibodies against the dogs own collagen and that is an autoimmune disaster marker.
” but the study was terminated when the dogs were 22 weeks of age, well before autoimmune diseases usually become clinically apparent.”
How useful, once the study started to show that the dogs immune systems were melting, the study was stopped. That is a beautiful example of cherry picking Krebby, stop rubbing it or it will fall off.
“………….Yeah, it’s a good thing that vaccine safety is being monitored………….” JP
Are you having a laugh or just being facetious?
“Riley Hughes, a one month old baby, died of pertussis in Australia. I have Facebook friends from there, and I don’t think Australia is currently anything like the “Mad Max” films. Ditto Germany, where that UNVACCINATED child died of Measles.
You. Got. Nothin’.” Appeal to emotion king
A death is crap – but using that to sell a vaccine is worse. This child was 4 weeks old, to young to vaccinate even by your rules. Also there is one death per year from this so no change in the average mortality. The German measles death was within a 95% herd immunity cohort so the idea that reaching herd immunity was going to help is a bullshit emotion appeal to sell more redundant vaccine on the back of a child death – again. You got loads there buddy
No, it’s even better. I feel compelled to note first, however, that while Philip Hills, Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex, has been drunkenly yowling – perhaps inspired by the tone of his wife’s saying somthing about the possible superiority of a dog in bed – about “reading of the Purdue study,”* etc., the footnoted** links in his own “source” are as dead as fυcking doornails.
One may fairly confidently assume that Phildo himself has not made a “reading of the Purdue study.”
Courtesy of the Wayback Machine, BEHOLD! “Effects of Vaccination on the Endocrine and Immune Systems of Dogs, Phase II.” The relevantly dated version of fn. 1 (which may well not be that originally linked) refers to the “Results from the Great Dane Health and Vaccine Study,” which seems to have been a purpose-funded follow-on to the work with the earlier “top breeder” concern, beagles.
This manages to persist in all its 88-page PDF glory here.
“The dogs vaccinated at least once in their lifetime did not differ significantly from those that were never vaccinated with respect to their gender, body condition (Table 7), age, weight, and height (Table 8, Figure 4). However, the unvaccinated dogs were significantly less likely to have been neutered.”
ZOMG.
It’d be exactly the same shіt as the Pasteur Institute, “Cochraine,” etc., routine, if not for the fact that on this occasion, Phildo deployed the hydrocephalic censorship routine to assert that finally, this time, for once,
Sic.
* At least once plural, but whatever, he was probably seeing double.
** Notes 1 and 2.
^ Almost forgot.
Wrong, slapdіck.
“The 30-kDa fragments contains the heparin-binding domain of fibronectin, whereas the 45-kDa fragment contains the collagen-binding domain. As shown in Fig. 2, little reactivity was observed with the 45-kDa fragment, but significant reactivity was observed with the 30-kDa fragment….
“The anti-fibronectin antibodies in four human SLE patients were directed against the collagen-binding domain (Atta et al., 1994), in contrast to the anti-fibronectin antibodies in the vaccinated dogs, which showed no affinity for this domain.”
Bah borked quotes again.
@ Narad
Whoever Johnny really is, could we leave Hills’ wife and dog and any deviant innuendo out of the debate?
Both his wife and dog already have a lot to endure. No need to drag them in.
Aside from this, please keep demolishing the troll’s lies. I brought popcorn. With plenty of sugar.
@ J.W.Chaplin
Some days, I cannot help thinking that, if the scientists who worked hard to create vaccines like DTP or MMR would have known about the likes of Hills or Theo, they would have become plumbers instead.
Actually, I’m not sure I would class the antivax leaders as “well-meaning idiots”.
The misled parents and the occasional newbie, I would just call them “well-meaning but wrong”.
But the likes of Hills, Wakefield and other who are knowingly spouting lies? No. There is nothing well-meaning about them. It’s malice, the desire to do evil, pure and simple.
How useful, once the study started to show that the dogs immune systems were melting, the study was stopped. That is a beautiful example of cherry picking Krebby
Whether it is genuine stupidity or a confusion made for comic effect, Johnny was the one who linked to the Purdue study, and is now pointing out its inadequacy and blaming Krebiozen for introducing it. I laughed, anyway.
Six kids from a family of eight diagnosed with autism or language problems! Yep, that certainly rules out the possibility of a genetic cause.
Johnny,
As Narad has pointed out, it specifically says that the dogs did not develop collagen autoantibodies. You seem to be under the illusion that the mere presence of autoantibodies sgnifies autoimmune disease, but it looks increasingly likely that autoantibodies are part of a normal healthy immune system.
Given the prevalence of automminune diseases in beagles, it is unlikely that any would have shown up in the five vaccinated dogs in this study however long it continued. As the authors point out:
I struggle to see how the study could have continued after the dogs were, “killed by intravenous injection of barbiturates, and a complete necropsy performed”.
Advice from experience, I assume. The study you claimed was evidence that vaccines cause autoimmune diseases found no evidence of autoimmune disease in the vaccinated dogs; that’s not cherry-picking, that’s pointing out that you either misunderstood the study, or more likely never read it.
I bet Narad is raw now.
Imagine my shock & surprise to find commentor “Sarah007” banging on about the Purdue dog auto-immunity research over at SBS a few years ago.
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/joe-mercola-quackery-pays/comment-page-2/#comment-83986
“Sarah007” shows exactly the same incomprehension of the actual Purdue research, not having read it and preferring to rely on the same predigested source.
“Cochraine” and “The other 98% of our reaction to any ‘disease process’ is non specific” make appearances later in that same SBS thread. It is almost as if Sarah007 and Johnny Labile are the same person.
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/purdue-vaccination-studies/
Not sure what you guys looked up and rewrote, it is so tiresome having to point out your straw fallacies, appeals to emotion and plain dishonesty. No wonder the ordinary guy is seeing doctors and medics as snake oil salesmen.
Keep it up, it is hysterical. By the way I don’t own a dog anymore and I am not Mr Hills. Not too good at research really are you.
So last years total failure of whooping cough vaccine which is the Pertussis medical magik totally failed to work in the US despite the highest uptake of whooping cough vaccine snake oil ever according to the CDC.
Take some context for the Australian boy. Stats show us that one death a year from Pertussis is the norm there so the vaccine programme has had no impact on mortality at all. Why are they claiming this death is an increase of something? Oh to sell more vaccine obviously.
What you don’t include is all the kids who die from SIDS as a result of having the vaccine and all the women who get put in prison for shaking their babies to death. Then look at all the appeals for the women let out and what do you find – Pertussis vaccine encephalitis.
Every time we widen the lens the straw fallacy of vaccination melts like chocolate in a furnace.
Johnny, I looked at the article you linked to. It appears in a magazine about raising dogs “naturally”. In other words, the same crunchy granola, free-range, woo embracing type as the antivaxx parents, but involving pets, not children.
None of the cites is less than a decade old. Also, I skimmed the article. It’s the same cherry picked nonsense that you see in antivaxx articles everywhere.
You got nothin’.
Johnny:
The only reason the death rate is that low is because of vaccinations, Granite Brain.
The death rate would be far higher if it weren’t for people getting vaccinated.
And just when I think Johnny couldn’t go any lower, he brings out an excavator. Vaccines do not cause SIDS, Johnny. In fact, vaccines have a slight protective effect against SIDS.
Taking down #568:
And if the community had reached herd immunity levels, little Riley would never have been affected, peabrain.
Deceiver, deceiver. Pantaloons aflame. Your proboscis is the length of a telephonic line. Ryf in #79:
You’re delusional. There’s no other word for the way you consistently ignore inconvenient facts that refute your insane beliefs.
Johnny,
You linked to a rabidly anti-vaccine website that has grossly misinterpeted the Purdue studies. You really think that trumps the actual studies themselves? Who is being dishonest here? That page includes such howlers as:
As previously pointed out, they did not develop collagen autoantibodies.
The dogs that were euthanized were found good homes? Presumably they means the follow-up study that found no evidence of autoimmune disease in vaccinated dogs, even after three years.
Philip Hills, Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex, decides yet again to try to change the subject after his actual “sources” are examined:
OK, pigfυcker, let’s have “all the appeals for the” overturned cases.
Phildo has yet to clarify this language production:
Oh hey, “Johnny” apparently supports the notion that vaccines are the real cause of shaken baby syndrome. I suggest he FOADIAF.
Which turned out not to exist:
Like Roald Dahl’s seven year old daughter Olivia? Really? You’d think that would have made the news at the time..
JGC: He already covered the Dahls on another thread. Apparently Dahl was showered with gratitude from the candy companies after writing Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, so Olivia’s immunity was compromised by sugar and Roald got punished for his sins against nutrition. I thought I’d spare us all from another post from Johnny. Good god ,the man is living proof that the anti-vax movement is chock-ful of sociopaths.
Adverse events following pertussis and rubella vaccines. Summary of a report of the Institute of Medicine.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1727962
@Ken – and when was the last time we used the DTP vaccine in the United Sates?
Seriously, if you don’t provide any a little context, we’re just going to continue to assume you are an odious anti-vax troll.
Well the insert for Flulaval in the Uk clearly states words to the effect “there are no robust trials that demonstrate you will not get influenza disease if you use this product”
Well at least they are honest. Oh and on the 800 kids in the UK now with narcolepsy after a swine flu vaccine here is the link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-21197394
I can just picture Narad going into a rubbing frenzy to cope with this, someone give him something please…..
Adverse events associated with childhood vaccines other than pertussis and rubella. Summary of a report from the Institute of Medicine.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8182813
“In this study of more than 2 million children, DTP and MMR vaccines were not associated with an increased risk of encephalopathy after vaccination.” Puddy tat
That is because the fake placebos used in vaccine trials are usually the same vaccine minus the antigens. When both groups get brains swelling it can be conveniently ruled out. There is no point quoting industry funded research foxy, it’s only go to give the same answer each time – bullshit
Ask the women who all got released for shaken baby syndrome how their appeals were all constructed and how they were all similar, foxy.
I dare you
@Johnny – why don’t you provide us with the links to those Court cases?
And while you are at it, how about a link to the information that you keep posting that the child who died in Germany was vaccinated against the Measles?
(despite being shown, multiple on multiple times, that you are full of crap)
#594 FYI A great reason it is no longer used-
“The DTP vaccine has resulted in the filing of 3,286 injury petitions and 696 deaths since 1986. Changes in this vaccine have reduced the number of side effects, resulting in safer vaccines. A more purified acellular pertussis (aP) vaccine has been licensed for use, replacing the whole cell pertussis vaccine used in DTP.”
http://www.tctimes.com/news/the-other-side-of-the-vaccine-controversy/article_3893c00e-d2f7-11e4-8247-9bcb61face3f.html
So, ken, you’re basically providing proof that there is a long-term safety reporting mechanism in place for vaccines and that manufacturers do take them off the market.
Absolutely ken – though further research shows that the DTP was not nearly as problematic as was originally thought.
So thank you for saying that the system works.
Also, ken, the Ford Pinto was also taken off the market due to safety concerns. Does that say cars in general are too dangerous for the general consumer?
Out of how many millions of vaccines delivered? These numbers are meaningless without context, ken.
Note also that the vast majority (i.e., >90%) of the awards granted by the NVICP to date are for table injuiries, in which no finding that the vaccine actually caused the claimed injuries is required of the claimant or is found by the court.
I posted a comment on ken’s link, questioning the reporter’s information about hundreds of deaths reported from the whole cell pertussis vaccine. My comment was published and then removed, but the Dachel bot’s two spamming comments remain.
Ken, the operative word there is “filed”. Not conceded, not paid out. FILED.
There are still risks for some children and it should be up to the
parent to decide (based on factors, genetic and other wise) in consultation with their pediatrician as to the best course of vaccination for their child. It should not be mandated by the Gov’t.
Johnny, there is no evidence whatsoever which demonstrates vaccines can cause the symptoms diagnostic of shaken baby syndrome.
And as the foster (and soon to be adoptive) parent of a three year old recvoering from SBS among other injuires I condemn your attempt to climb to victory in this debate over the bodies of abused children.
Die in an effing fire, you cretinous mouthbreathing misanthrope.
Re: the FLuLaval insert, it doesn’t say what you think it says (i.e., it isn’t an admission that FluLaval is not effective at reducing risk of flu infection)
https://www.facebook.com/RtAVM/posts/580677032002310#!/RtAVM/photos/a.414675905269091.96547.414643305272351/502009266535754/?type=1&fref=nf
#610 You are dumber than I thought.
I don’t think you’re anywhere near smart enough to make an accurate assessment of my intelligence, cupcake. Go back and read it again. Move your lips if you need to.
Hint: the use of seatbelts also carries inherent risks. Sometimes people die because they were wearing a seatbelt.
Merck is rather casual about making this statement…..
Merck Manual Home Edition-
Encephalitis is inflammation of the brain that occurs when a virus directly infects the brain or when a virus, vaccine, or something else triggers inflammation. The spinal cord may also be involved, resulting in a disorder called encephalomyelitis.
http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/brain_spinal_cord_and_nerve_disorders/brain_infections/encephalitis.html
continued……Autoimmune encephalitis:
After certain viral infections or vaccines, the body’s immune system sometimes attacks the layers of tissue that wrap around nerve fibers (called the myelin sheath) in the brain and spinal cord The attack occurs because proteins in myelin resemble those in the virus. As a result, nerve transmission becomes very slow. The resulting disorder, called acute disseminated encephalomyelitis, resembles multiple sclerosis except that symptoms do not come and go as they do in multiple sclerosis. The viruses most often involved include enteroviruses, Epstein-Barr virus, hepatitis A or B virus, human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), and influenza viruses.
So, ken, I wonder if you can go “do some research” and tell us about the mathematical relationship between the number of cases of encephalitis caused by vaccines vs. the number caused by VPD?
@ken – once again, what is your point?
ken, what is the encephalitis incidence rate associated with 1) vaccines and 2) the infectious diseases they protect against? Are they anywhere near equivalent, such that the risk of encephalitis assoicated with being vaccinated equals or exceeds the risk of encephalitis associated with remaining vulnerable to the infectious diseases they protect against?
Consider encephalitis associated with measles vaccination versus measles infection: the incidence of encephalitis associated with the MMR vaccine is 1 case in every 1 million vaccines given, while the incidence associated with measles itself is 1 case in every 1000 measles infections.
That’s a difference of three orders of magnitude.
Clearly if you’re concerned about developing encephalitis you’ll want be sure you and your loved ones are vaccinated against measles according to the recommended schedule, reducing that likelihood 1000-fold..
Johnny,
Perhaps you should get your eyesight checked.
No, this was a study looking at cases of encephalopathy to see if they were more likely to have received MMR or DTP in the 90 days preceding their illness, no placebos involved.
It wasn’t industry funded, it was funded by the American Association of Health Plans, an association of health insurers who are highly motivated to get accurate information about the health of their customers.
Ah, more desperate subject-changing. This one’s ancient, Phildo, so you scurry right along and find a copy of the current package information. Because the U.S. version of this fares very, very poorly.
“Pandemrix was most widely used in the UK during the 2009-10 flu pandemic and given to almost a million British children between six months and five years old…. The HPA abstract paper …. from Developmental Medicine in Childhood Neurology…. estimates the risk was one in 52,000 in those vaccinated.”
I can see why the books of the Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex are so underwhelming. That’s a fail for the ages, Phildo.
#615 #616
That’s for Merck to do since they are raking in millions
but I guess they can’t be bothered to be more explicit.
Like they really care ie.- It’s just collateral damage.
#617 I doubt if anyone really knows the real figures. That’s the reported figures.
Ah-ha – so you’re not just a moron, kenny boy, you’re a conspiracy theorist too? Who’s suppressing the “real figures”? The Big-Pharma-Gubmint cabal in cahoots with the lizard people and the Illuminati and the Freemasons?
WHO DID 9/11, KEN??!!!11!eleventy!
@ken – so you admit you are an odious troll then, huh?
You provide no context, present nothing we haven’t seen (and debunked a thousand times)….just go away.
That RTAVM entry is overly simplistic. I don’t have the time to go over the U.S. regulatory history at the moment, which explains the scope of the expedited approval (age range, IIRC), but suffice it to say that the insert no longer says that in any event.
Of course, the real meat here is Phildo’s production of the UK version. Now that I think about it, I’m not even sure that that FluLaval TIV (the quadrivalent is entirely separate) is even licensed in the UK.
But I’m sure that Philip Hills, Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex, will clear this all up in no time.
Oh, come on. What source other than report could their possibly be for any of the data under discussion?
You might as well just say “La, la, la, fingers in my ears, I can’t hear you.”
Kenny, explain what motivation an insurance company has to falsify figures on a practice that damages their revenue stream.
You guys can get stuck in the minutia I prefer the big topics and ideas here.
WTF?
http://www.cnbc.com/id/102473744
“Therefore, it is prudent to minimize the risk of human exposure to infection by evaluating XMRV contamination in cell lines handled in laboratory research and particularly those used in the manufacture of biological products.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21996050
So we know that SV-40 and XMRV are linked to contaminated vaccines and both of those retro viruses are found in cancer patients? yeah vaccines are safe alright..thats downright terrifying.
It just never ends. Its the gift that keeps on giving the more you dig into vaccines and look at the opposing argument. All the facts and all the players and the history. Its full of cover ups, misinformation, coercion crony capitalism and fear mongering. As stated before this topic stinks to high heaven. where there is smoke there is fire. There are PLUMES of smoke surrounding Vaccines. The easiest take down ever.
If the American people knew the truth about all the issues me Johnny and Ken are finding it would reduce vaccinating immediately. So is it any wonder why the media is so 1 sided? No its not and YES Orac the mystery writer. Its un-american suppression. As Johnny says the dam is breaking as we speak. Pharma is freaking out thats why they are trying to force all of the laws against vaccine exemptions. They are losing control of the information.
Ken,
Actually, those folks at the Merck manual were more explicit, and if you knew how to search properly, you would have found it. (or maybe you did, but refused to see it?)
See: http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/neurologic_disorders/brain_infections/encephalitis.html?qt=vaccine-induced%20encephalitis&alt=sh
The primary causes are from various viral infections, generally mosquito-related. I quote one paragraph for your edification:
“Immunologic reaction: Encephalitis can occur as a secondary immunologic complication of certain viral infections or vaccinations. Inflammatory demyelination of the brain and spinal cord can occur 1 to 3 wk later (as acute disseminated encephalomyelitis); the immune system attacks one or more CNS antigens that resemble proteins of the infectious agent. The most common causes used to be measles, rubella, chickenpox, and mumps (all now uncommon because childhood vaccination is widespread); smallpox vaccine; and live-virus vaccines (eg, the older rabies vaccines prepared from sheep or goat brain). In the US, most cases now result from influenza A or B virus, enteroviruses, Epstein-Barr virus, hepatitis A or B virus, or HIV. Encephalopathies caused by autoantibodies to neuronal membrane proteins (eg, N-methyl-d-aspartate receptors) may mimic viral encephalitis.”
I note that neither smallpox nor those old rabies vaccines are used these days. So, get yourself vaccinated, don’t go camping and avoid any creatures that are foaming at the mouth. This includes other anti-vaxxers.
I see theo has failed our wee intelligence test.
Beth@516
” I think there is rather good evidence that children with mitochondrial diseases have a high rate of adverse reactions to vaccines. But I don’t know that tests have yet been developed for it.”
What antivaxers do not realize,is that it isn’t just vaccines that cause problems.Children with mitochondrial disease have adverse reactions to ANY fever,be it wild or vaccine induced.Autistic regression is only one consequence of fever in mitochondrial disease.Unexplained vision or hearing loss,heart problems,liver problems,almost anything can be effected.
I have lifelong vision loss and heart problems from childhood infections.And then there is the fact that for those of us with both autism,and mitochondrial disease,like myself,regression is not a one time thing,but life is an endless cycle of regression,some improvement of autism,and brain function,and then another acute infection and regression.This is a lifelong cycle,unless underlying mitochondrial and metabolic disorders are corrected.Any doctor that treats patients with mitochondrial autism will tell you this.I had the two worst regressions,following the one I had as a baby,as an adult.
Many people with mito also have secondary immune deficiencies,like I do,making things even more complicated.A lot of children and adults with mitochondrial disease need to rely on herd immunity.
To continue on what Beth said,diagnosing mito is not a easy thing,especially since new mutations and new types of mito are being found all the time.In all likelihood,I may have such a type of mitochondrial disease.There are newer tests,like the buccal study that can test mitochondrial complex levels in saliva,but these tests are too expensive be put in general use for screening,and are only done on patients with suspected mitochondrial disease.It was one of the tests that helped me get a diagnosis.
JGC@609
That is one of the best pages on all of Facebook.I hope everybody here has signed up for it.
Isn’t funny the antivaxers don’t talk about mito much any more,and cerebral folate deficiency,something else I have,was barely a blip on the radar,before the likes of AoA promptly forgot about it.
Vioxx killing 160,000 worldwide before withdrawn
Another of Philip Hills’ diagnostic dumbprints, ungrounded in reality, birthed full-grown from his forehead in the manner of grey-eyed Athene.
I’m beginning to wonder if (like O’Blivion in Videodrome) Hills actually died some time ago and has been replaced by a collection of recorded rants, endlessly recycling in different combinations.
Theo @626 (gosh this comment thread has gotten long):
XMRV? Really? You’re trying to dig that one up? Well, since you don’t seem to believe anything any of us have to say, why don’t you go look at all the posts ERV wrote about XMRV? The link to her blog is right there at the top of the page, with the drop-down. You’ll have to search (since everyone is over XMRV), but there’s plenty of stuff there.
Theo,
I find it mind-boggling that any sane intelligent person can look at the evidence and come to this conclusion. Every single one of the anti-vaccine canards are easily refutable, and in the end it all depends on a fervent belief that vaccines are bad and ignoring all the copious evidence to the contrary. The only cover-ups and misinformation I come across are from the anti-vaccine side. Just look at this comment thread and the many pieces of nonsense that you and ken have posted here that have been refuted with good evidence.
Just one example, from your last link:
This is a flat lie. According to the CDC:
The B3 genotype is a wild measles virus, not a vaccine type:
Unless you are going to accuse the CDC, all the people involved in genotyping these cases, the authors of every immunology text book and every immunology professor in the entire world of being involved in a conspiracy, what Sally Fallon Morell is clearly not true.
Even though I have told you this I am quite sure you will be posting the same nonsense again in a week or in a month (I’ll remind you of this when you do). It doesn’t matter how many times you show an antivaxxer they are mistaken, or have been lied to, they reappear spouting the same nonsense a bit later. I have seen it time and time again. Why do you spread misinformation like this? Do you have no interest in the truth at all?
You guys can get stuck in the minutia I prefer the big topics and ideas here.
Theo’s triumphant big-picture victory lap is somehow familiar:
JGC: Apparently, I misspoke. Ken and Keith Bell are not the same person, though really, there’s not much difference between them. Is there a factory cloning these guys somewhere?
It’s impressive that the Guardian is above your level of reading comprehension.
Our chav friend seems to prefer the Daily Mail.
Theo:
There’s a saying I long ago learnt was very true: “The Devil’s in the details.” That you like the “big idea” is no surprise.
” Is there a factory cloning these guys somewhere?” swine
Yes it’s called “camp Orac” a kind of Gulag of year zero thinkers who will do anything to defend the vaxxy. Rows of computer nerds eager to please and quote the red book that has been specially written. Meanwhile anyone who dares question the falling pants on the Madonna has all sorts of knob rubbing expletives directed in the hope that the mist will cover the truth. They always ignore facts:
A team at Purdue University School of Veterinary Medicine conducted several studies (1,2) to determine if vaccines can cause changes in the immune system of dogs that might lead to life-threatening immune-mediated diseases. They obviously conducted this research because concern already existed. It was sponsored by the Haywood Foundation which itself was looking for evidence that such changes in the human immune system might also be vaccine induced. It found the evidence.
The vaccinated, but not the non-vaccinated, dogs in the Purdue studies developed autoantibodies to many of their own biochemicals, including fibronectin, laminin, DNA, albumin, cytochrome C, cardiolipin and collagen.
This means that the vaccinated dogs — ”but not the non-vaccinated dogs”– were attacking their own fibronectin, which is involved in tissue repair, cell multiplication and growth, and differentiation between tissues and organs in a living organism.
The vaccinated Purdue dogs also developed autoantibodies to laminin, which is involved in many cellular activities including the adhesion, spreading, differentiation, proliferation and movement of cells. Vaccines thus appear to be capable of removing the natural intelligence of cells.
I can hear Narad reaching for the tissues on this one…….
What a shame, back in moderation again boys, come on be brave have a look a this and comment please. Narad and Julian have been telling porky pies on this:
The vaccinated, but not the non-vaccinated, dogs in the Purdue studies developed autoantibodies to many of their own biochemicals, including fibronectin, laminin, DNA, albumin, cytochrome C, cardiolipin and collagen.
I can hear Narad reaching for the tissues on this………..
I don’t believe you have the skills to foster a sense of humor let alone a human being….Geeez
What lies did I tell, pinhead?
Johnny’s argument (I think) is that if the Purdue veterinary researchers (writing in easily-accessed papers) report finding no collagen antibodies, while some mendacious asswipe purports to predigest the papers (in Alt-Vet journals, and then echoed at AoA and further afield) while claiming that “collagen antibodies were found”, then it is YOU who are the lying cherry-picker, for linking to the original report rather than to the AoA redaction, even though the latter version describes the results which should have been obtained.
It is an odd approach to reality but what can I say? Johnny really enjoys being spanked for stupidity; the commenters here enjoy spanking him. It is a dysfunctional and co-dependent relationship but at least both sides are happy.
Actually Theo has dredged up XMRV several times for this thread. It is passing strange. XMRV was a laboratory accidental creation caused by passage of xenotransplants and accidentally contaminated some research kits. The evidence that it is infectious was made up whole cloth, including doctoring the labels on Western blots. The fact that Theo’s arguments hang on fraud every bit as egregious as Piltdown Man is significant.
As for Phil Hill of the Hope Back-cracking Clinic, I have given up. Phil Hill is not afraid of letting anyone know how batsh!t insane he is – even down to his poorly disguised pseudonyms.
Oh, no, another AMAZING COINCIDENCE!!1!
“Last year Mary Creagh MP called for compulsory MMR, I wrote to her and asked her to qualify her statement and her reply, and I quote was ‘Doctors tell us there is an anecdotal increase in measles in London’.”
Years later, the Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex
“In the last measles scare Mary Creagh MP called for child benefit to be linked to non vaccine uptake so I wrote to her and asked her to qualify her reasoning, Her reply was stunning, consider she was calling for effectively a change in the law with this initiative. So this statement was the only justification for her passionate campaign:
“‘Doctors tell us there is an anecdotal increase in measles in London’ Mary Creagh MP”
Clearly, I misunderstood this, which I thought merely to be a confident declaration of indifference to the matter:
Little did I realize that the true import was that the real Philip Hills is himself merely cutting and pasting from “Johnny” and his Volkswagen full of pseudonyms.
How could I possibly have come to think even less of the Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex?
# 629 Roger Kulp
That individual cases of “vaccine damage” are a response to fever is the elephant in the room that anti-vaxxers can’t acknowledge. I think their lawyers have looked at that many times and run the proverbial mile.
Out of curiosity, I decided to look at the Daily Fail article that THEO linked to. I then found something interesting.
Tasha David is not a reliable commentator.
Johnny,
No one rewrote anything. As the good Herr Doktor pointed out, Narad and I linked to the Purdue studies themselves here and here. None of the dogs in the studies developed autoimmune diseases, even after a three year follow-up (in the second study).
You quoted an idiotic antivaccine article by a woman who also wrote an article titled, ‘Why I don’t Vaccinate My Dogs At All’ – she gives them “homoeopathic nosode, a safer vaccine alternative” instead. Not surprisingly, given her belief in magic pixie dust, she misinterpreted the studies (that’s a charitable view). Repeatedly reposting the same misinformation doesn’t make it true, however tiresome you may find it.
More specifically, here are some of the article’s claims:
That isn’t true. All the dogs, even the unvaccinated ones, had antibodies to bovine fibronectin, murine laminin and calf DNA, though these were a little higher in the vaccinated dogs. As we have discussed, there were no antibodies to collagen found in the first study (the antibodies found “showed no affinity for this domain”) and collagen antibodies were not even measured in the second study. Neither study even mentions antibodies to albumin or cytochrome C, which the author appears to have simply made up.
Not their own DNA, calf DNA, and anti-DNA antibodies in the unvaccinated dogs were almost as high as in the vaccinated dogs, presumably from eating beef products.
The rest of the article is a smorgasbord of antivaccine canards and unfounded speculations.
I am only interested in the truth.
Let me try to find a middle ground here. The truth is most likely found in 0 -10 doses (1983) vaccine schedule being safe for MOST babies. But the incremental increase to 49 doses 2015 schedule and its synergistic effects all combined together to cluster bomb a child’s immune system has never been tested or fully investigated for its LONG TERM effects on health. Thats a pesky fucking fact that you cannot ignore or prove other wise. Its an experiment with A LOT of unknowns. Merck and the rest of the industry have ZERO interest in doing these studies. Its the HOLY GRAIL of modern medicine for the love of God! Doctors are not allowed to speak negatively or else you are tarred and feathered as a quack. GET IT
The truth is that the IOM Committee in 2011 came to this startling conclusion, which they admitted openly and that is:
“For the vast majority, (135 vaccine-adverse event pairs), the evidence is inadequate to accept or reject a causal relationship.”Therefore its possible vaccines are linked to ALL autoimmune diseases and lay the groundwork for the growing epidemic of chronic childhood ilness. Johnny has cited studies and I will link another article from an incredible website backed by scientific studies that Johnny and Ken should add to there repertoire of reading.
“Throughout our lifetime the normal immune system walks a fine line between preserving normal immune reactions and developing autoimmune diseases,” says the paper. “The healthy immune system is tolerant to self-antigens. When self-tolerance is disturbed, dysregulation of the immune system follows, resulting in emergence of an autoimmune disease. Vaccination is one of the conditions that may disturb this homeostasis in susceptible individuals, resulting in autoimmune phenomena and ASIA.”
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/attacking-ourselves-top-doctors-reveal-vaccines-turn-our-immune-system-against-us
There are links embedded in the article to studies
With regards to XMRV and SV-40 ummm…. thats new material for me and most Americans are oblivious to this vaccine history. this just what we know. What about what we don’t know and they are covering up?
They are finding xmrv in prostate cancer, chronic fatigue syndrome patients and wow even autism patients. WTF is going on here?
The article from cnbc was more about the effects of Viral shedding and how the immunocompromised should be avoided.
I wasn’t claiming it was only the vaccinated causing the outbreak but its interesting that it can happen isn’t it
You see its all about trust isn’t it? Trust is fading the damn in Europe is breaking too for good reason.
http://www.euractiv.com/sections/health-consumers/distrust-vaccinations-rise-across-eu-313296
#187 “The speculation that adjuvants are involved in feline sarcoma is dated to 2004 in that Whackyweedia entry. I am intrigued. Are there any updates on that line of research?”
This is the recent thinking summary from veterinary partner:
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A=526
Also this one:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3299519/
There is also a paper by Srivastav et al from 2012 that compares injection site sarcomas from different injections – adjuvanted vs non-adjuvanted vaccines and other injections. From it – any injection can cause sarcoma in cats, but there appears to be stronger association with adjuvanted vaccines (presumably from local inflammation but nobody knows for sure).
At any rate, I am all with you about human vaccines – they are safe and effective, but cats are a special case, especially indoor-only cats.
Disclaimer: I am just a concerned cat owner not a vet. Also, I don’t know how this is relevant to humans since a) we are not cats and don’t have the same reaction to inflammation b) our vaccines have far better safety profile c) we are not re-vaccinated every year or even every three years except for flu because the virus mutates and tetanus which is a taxoid, which makes all concerned cat owners wonder what exactly is the science for such frequent boosters in cats d) my indoor-only cats have very little chance for catching these diseases – really what is the chance my strictly indoor cats would catch distemper (especially given that they had their kitten series and yearly boosters)? e) no human vaccine would have ever been approved with the same risk profile as in cats, especially if we had indoor-only humans, much less for yearly or every 3 year boosters (in spite of the ample evidence for longer duration of immunity). Just imagine: “It has about 1/10,000 or maybe 1/1000 chance of giving your baby a fatal cancer, but don’t worry, we are going to do injection in the leg, this way if the cancer develops, we can cut off the leg”. Do you see this type of conversation in a doctor’s office?
Not much truth here Theo just a load of broken doktor types who once thought they had joined an honorable profession. It is why the suicide rate is high. Must be hard coming to terms with how unpopular the sacred cow of vaccination is when one was brainwashed by a fairy story about cows and milkmaids.
Mind you they do like the Disney link too, I suppose if thats how you learn to gather evidence – anything is possible, even vaccine efficacy in the face of overwhelming real evidence of the total opposite.
Tissues all round
Disclaimer: I am just a concerned cat owner not a vet. Also, I don’t know how this is relevant to humans since a) we are not cats and don’t have the same reaction to inflammation b,…..
Well all human vaccines parts are tested on animals at some point, it’s still the same woo. All the animal owners I know stopped vaccinating a long time ago and all we see is a healthier cohort, meanwhile the autoimmune disaster is becoming commonplace now. After the US vet lot noticed an increase in cancer in dogs and cats at the yearly vaccination site, found aluminum in the tumors too, they recommended continuing to vaccinate but in the tail or the leg so they could then amputate when the animal eventually got cancer!!!!! What a good idea, much better than dumping the vaccine. It’s that holy cow again. avey.
Krebby and co. Why do you keep lying about the Perdue study on vaccine disasters? Is it that distressing? Come on just take it on the chin and move on,
Exactly what evidence demonstrates this a is most likely to represent the truth? Be specific
Exactly what evidence demonstrates the vaccines on the recommended 2015 schedule combine synergistically to ‘cluster bomb a child’s immune system’? For that matter, what does the phrase ‘cluster bomb the immune system’ even mean? Be specific
This isn’t true, however: long term effects have been and continue to be investigated. For example, Hviid, Madsen, DeStefano, and others have publishedthe results of very large scale epidemiologic studies looking at long term outcomes following vaccination, and ongoing post marketing surveillance is continuously looking at outcomes as we speak.
And, in the face of yet another wholesale embarrassment, all that’s left is unadorned sniveling from ol’ Philip Hills.
THEO @648:
No he hasn’t. He has posted to an article that distorted, twisted and misquoted the Purdue Study to argue that vaccination is harmful to dogs. Krebiozen and HDB posted links to the actual study showing that the article johnny linked to lied.
Secondly, you cited Green Med Info. All I can say is “you lose”. The citation you give shows an interesting interpretation of (read, flat out lies about) what the IOM said.
“Incredible” is indeed the word.
Oh the irony. We have shown you (with links) that the majority of the people who caught the disease were unvaccinated, that the child who died of Meases in Germany was unvaccinated and had no underlying health conditions, and that your link to the “Purdue Study” in fact linked to an article from a crunchy dog owner who distorted what the Purdue Study said to advance her antivaccine agenda.
You are the one who is ignoring reality.
Theo,
If that is true, I suggest you stop believing the misinformation spread by anti-vaccine websites like GreenMedInfo which starts its article with the word, “No one would accuse Yehuda Shoenfeld of being a quack”. As regulars here Shoenfeld is a well-known antivaccine loon who vetted ‘The Greater Good’, is buddies with the chemical-castrating Geiers and has invented ASIA apparently out of whole cloth. As for Sayer Ji, he has a casual relationship with the truth himself. By all means read them but please fact-check before dumping them here.
With flat-Earthers we would have to agree that the Earth is lens-shaped. Sometimes there is no middle ground, sometimes there are evidence-based working models on the one hand and paranoid conspiracy-based lies and misinformation on the other.
Why do you believe this?
How can a schedule introduced recently have been tested for long-term safety? Post-marketing surveillance follows large numbers of people and closely watches the incidence of a large number of diseases to see if there are any adverse events that were too rare to be picked up during clinical trials. The alternative is to wait for years, with children dying and suffering crippling damage from diseases like meningitis in the meantime.
In the IoM’s 2013 publication they concluded:
In other words existing surveillance is sufficient and there isn’t even anything to suggest further research is required in these areas. Or is the IoM unreliable when it contradicts your prejudices?
We know that autoimmune diseases are rooted in genetics and are definitely triggered by infections, and perhaps by some vaccines, but only very rarely, if at all:
I asked you before, but you didn’t reply; what “growing epidemic of chronic childhood illness” are you referring to?
As for XMRV, one of the main researchers on this virus stated that:
SV40? It hasn’t been found in vaccines since the 1970s. Given the large studies that found no link with cancer, it is almost certainly not a cause of human cancer, and the studies that found SV40 in human tumors were very probably due to cross-reactivity with the closely related JC and BK viruses.
Johnny,
Anyone reading this can look at the studies themselves to see who is lying.
@Johnny After the US vet lot noticed an increase in cancer in dogs and cats at the yearly vaccination site, found aluminum in the tumors too,…
1. The Feline Injection Site Sarcoma is specific to cats not dogs. 2. ANY injection can cause sarcoma in cats, even if there *might* be more sarcoma after adjuvanted vaccines, any injection – vaccines, steroids, antibiotics, or any foreign object e.g. sutures or microchips can also cause sarcoma in cats. Here is a case of a sarcoma in cats at a microchip site:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21535253
Presumably wounds as well.
Sure, everything is tested on animal first, but some animals have unique characteristics e.g. tylenol is toxic to cats in any amounts. Cats are also very sensitive to inflammation.
Kitty @649:
This is the recent thinking summary from veterinary partner:
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A=526
Also this one:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3299519/
Many thanks.
some animals have unique characteristics
Cats, for instance, are actually large vet bills wearing fur coats.
I know it is just anecdotical, but my parents and I have had cats for most of our lives and they where always vaccinated and I think we lost only 2 cats on cancer. The last one, was my cat, which had a large tumor in her intestines, so pretty far from the vaccinationsite.
The article from cnbc was more about the effects of Viral shedding
Theo somehow missed the big letters at the top of the CNBC webpage saying “PRESS RELEASE”. He is linking to an advertisement from professional antivax lobbyists and calling it an “article”. Great.
I am only interested in the truth.
Let me try to find a middle ground here.
If someone offers a middle ground between accuracy and bullsh1t, you have to question the sincerity of their putative committment to truth. “It is a mark of insincerity of purpose to spend one’s time in looking for the sacred Emperor in the low-class tea-shops.”
Would you care to document this?
“Might”? Do you think there’s a reason that signal was noticed in the first place?
Chocolate is poisonous to dogs.
Animals are not small furry humans, and those who test medical treatments in animals are well aware of that. Quacks and cranks are not.
With regards to XMRV and SV-40 ummm…. thats new material for me
Such is the risk of acquiring all one’s information from ME/CFS crank sites. But no matter, this is a learning opportunity!
They are finding xmrv in prostate cancer, chronic fatigue syndrome patients and wow even autism patients.
Alas, learning opportunities are wasted on people who prefer the comforts of ignorance.
You keep failing to notice that you pulled this out of your ass.
As they say …follow the money…..
Should Canada and the United States Universally Vaccinate Infants against Hepatitis B?
A Cost – Effectiveness Analysis
“This paper examines the economic attractiveness of universal vaccination of infants with hepatitis B virus (HBV) vaccine by calculating the incremental cost-effectiveness of this strategy when compared with the currently recommended strategy of screening all pregnant women and vaccinating only infants born to HBsAg+ mothers.
Lower vaccine prices would substantially improve the attractiveness of such a program. Implementation of universal vaccination should be considered in North America, contingent on vaccine price reduction.
http://www.mdm.sagepub.com/content/13/1/4.abstract
mdm.sagepub.com/content/13/1/4.abstract
I don’t suppose you’re capable of explaining how this 23-year-old cost-effectiveness item embodies that slogan.
Then again, neither did augustine (etc.). I presume this is still hanging around in some zeroth-tier antivaccine collection.
As they say …follow the
moneyred laser dotFTFY.
You are a complete idiot ken.
“It is concluded that universal vaccination against HBV in infancy is economically attractive, comparable in cost-effectiveness to existing health care interventions.”
That is society benefits economically from universal vaccination against HBV.
I am happy to follow that money.
ChrisP Wrong. Society does not benefit.
Completely unnecessary. You are brainwashed and lack critical thinking skills.
Hepatitis B Vaccine – Is it Safe for Your Newborn?
http://www.kellybroganmd.com/article/hepatitis-b-vaccine-for-your-newborn/
ken:
Society does not benefit from immunising people against a disease that can cause liver cancer and cirrhosis? Society does not benefit from reducing the need for liver transplants? Society does not benefit from not having the reduced productivity that comes with people getting these diseases and having to take time off to get them treated?
Ken, YOU are brainwashed and lack critical thinking skills.
ken, you linked to the abstract of that paper as evidence of support. I can’t help it if you lack the thinking skills to see that it offers no support for your claim, but in fact supports the opposite claim.
That is your fault, not mine.
You are making assumptions about the efficacy of the vaccine that has not been proven. Please supply citations to all of the above claims.
From #674
“The results of this large prospective longitudinal study show that 42% of babies born of HBsAg-positive mothers develop occult HBV infection, which is not prevented by administration of recombinant HBV vaccine to the new- born.”
First off, ken, those babies were all born to mothers who tested positive for HBV, so already it’s a special case.
That Kelly Brogan, who is a holistic doctor, writes:
is deceptive and deceitful, as she isn’t considering babies born to mothers who aren’t HBV positive.
The abstract itself says:
Secondly, Hepatitis B can survive outside the body for up to a week. It’s very easy to get infected.
Howsabout you get back to explaining the “cognitive process” that led you to pull out an ancient cost-effectiveness paper and prepend the words “follow the money”?
Not easy to get infected- similar to HIV transmission
Hepatitis B is spread when blood, semen, or other body fluid infected with the Hepatitis B virus enters the body of a person who is not infected. People can become infected with the virus during activities such as:
• Birth (spread from an infected mother to her baby during birth)
• Sex with an infected partner
• Sharing needles, syringes, or other drug-injection equipment
• Sharing items such as razors or toothbrushes with an infected person
• Direct contact with the blood or open sores of an infected person
• Exposure to blood from needlesticks or other sharp instruments
http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/B/bFAQ.htm#bFAQ10
ken, you missed two important words: such as. That means that these are not the only ways to transmit hepatitis
And your point 5 is “Direct contact with the blood or open sores of an infected person”. A lot of people are Hep B positive and don’t know it.
I repeat, It’s very easy to get infected.
@ken – perhaps you can chew on this for a while before you attempt to comment again:
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1734688&resultClick=3
Infant fulminant hepatitis mortality rates and sex-adjusted rate ratios declined significantly for infants born from 1977-1980 to 2009-2011 (Table). The decline was greatest from 1981-1984 to 1985-1988 and from 1989-1992 to 1993-1996, coincident with the launch of the national immunization program in 1984 and the change to recombinant vaccines in 1992. Compared with 1977-1980, the sex-adjusted rate ratio declined to 0.88 (95% CI, 0.65-1.21) in 1981-1984, 0.46 (95% CI, 0.31-0.69) in 1985-1988, and 0.03 (95% CI, 0.01-0.24) in 2009-2011.
ken,
That’s why they are also given hepatitis B immune globulin within 12 hours of birth, which increases efficacy to 98%.
When I first started working in clinical biochemistry labs there was no vaccine available, so we all lived in fear of hepatitis B , or Australian antigen hepatitis as we called it back then. I got a needle-stick injury from a syringe-full of blood that some bright spark had left the needle on, but thankfully the patient it came from turned out to be hepatitis B negative, after several days of anxiety. You can’t imagine how enthusiastic we were about getting vaccinated when it did become available, even though the vaccine was made from the blood of hepatitis B sufferers.
I’m amused by the irrational fear some people display about this vaccine , despite its remarkable safety profile. Vaccine manufacturers develop a vaccine that isn’t made using animal or human cells or any pathogens, yet the antivaxxers are still afraid of it. Some people will never accept any vaccine, no matter how safe it is. Ironically it is fear of a vaccine that will likely prevent eradication of this virus, which has no non-human reservoir, meaning it is antivaxxers who will be responsible for the continued need to vaccinate people, just as it is in the case of measles.
@ ken
Dude, the viral charge needed for an infection is about a thousandth times lower for hepatitis viruses than for HIV.
In other words, if you get contaminated by a bit of HIV, you have some chance of clearing the viruses without lasting harm. If you get contaminated by a similar amount of Hep C or Hep B viruses, your chances of clearing the viruses before they establish a hold are going to be quite lower.
ken, thanks for proving that you have zero reading comprehension skills in terms of science, considering the things you cite directly contradict what you think.
#682 My issue is with 1 day old babies who are not born to HBV positive mothers.
( “Direct contact with the blood or open sores of an infected person”. A lot of people are Hep B positive and don’t know it.)
Excuse me but my grandchildren are highly unlikely to contract it from members of my family who do not go around with open sores.
I would get a Hep B shot if I were working in a health care setting or concerned about exposure. I haven’t had any blood contact or shook hands with anyone with open sores.
It doesn’t even have to be an open sore, Ken.
A hangnail, or a fresh manicure is enough to have a small bleed, which can transfer the virus.
You don’t know the Hep B status of everyone in your family, or that of the people you meet.
ken,
But they might very possibly contract it from the tears, saliva, sweat, and urine of children with hepatitis B contain high levels of the virus, and whose parents don’t know they are infected:
Then your grandchildren could join the ranks of people who are discriminated against because they were unlucky enough to contract a viral infection and are surrounded by ignorant bigots who think it can only be transmitted through casual sex or drug abuse.
Ken, you are quite simply wrong to believe that your children are unlikely to contract hepatitis from family members as long as they don’t go around with open sores.
Before the hepatitis B vaccine was introduced, about 18,000 children were infected with hepatitis B virus in the U.S. by the time they were 10 years old, only 50% caught the virus from their mother during birth. The remainder caught it from another family member, caregiver or someone else they came in contact with as a child. As many as one billion infectious virus particles may be present in a single mL of blood from an infected individual making very easliy transmissable by casual contact, including by means of something as inocuous as sharing a washcloth.
#690 Frankly I’m more concerned about the norovirus.
http://www.cdc.gov/norovirus/trends-outbreaks.html
What does norovirus, which is spread by the fecal-oral route and ingesting of infected food and water, have to do with hepatitis B which is transmitted through contact with infected blood, semen, tears and other body fluids, ken?
You’re off-topic…again.
wwwn.cdc.gov/foodborneoutbreaks/Default.aspx
Foodborne Outbreak Online Database (FOOD)
Ken really doesn’t have much of a clue, does he?
#692 It’s much more prevaent in the US.
Ken — does this mean that you can only worry about one thing at a time?
What is it with people who are apparently only capable of being concerned about one thing at a time? I’m bemused.
shay beat me to the same thought.
Can’t resist—
http://www.littlelady.org
ken,
Every time you’re proven to be an idiot about something, instead of attempt to defend your position you just move on to some other completely unrelated piece of b.s.
Even by anti-vax wingnut standards you’re pretty much useless and I’d suggest starving the troll might be in order here.
Can’t resist-
#701 I’m female and look a little like littlelady lol
ken- the noun- as in beyond my ken.
Then the video is even more appropriate……
Norovirus is more prevalent, but it’s not causing liver failure and liver cancer.
Hep B does.
FTFY.
* Not a very bright or honest one, either, judging by this Mercola entry.
#705 I was prescribed Paxil (for recurring bouts of depression) to which I had an awful reaction. I liked the psychiatrist and filled the prescription. Awful -I felt wooden, spacy, a little spastic. Had to stop. Tried cognitive therapy which worked. I won’t at all berate the psychiatrist because they don’t have time to do all the research. Maybe it worked for some though it’s gained a bad reputation the past 7 years.
Kelly Brogan (of the Personalised Lifestyle Medicine Institute) received her ration of respectful insolence a year ago:
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2014/04/02/i-do-not-think-that-study-shows-what-you-think-it-shows/
She claims to have received the “Rudin Scholarship for Psychiatric Oncology”, which seems to have no existence outside of her self-promotional efforts.
Psychiatric Oncology-
http://www.massgeneral.org/cancer/services/treatmentprograms.aspx?id=1430
Lewis Rudin City Scholarships
Rudin Scholars are outstanding entering freshmen selected from public and parochial high schools in all five boroughs of New York City. In addition to their scholarship, the scholars participate in academic and cultural activities in New York City. The program is named in honor of the late real estate developer Lewis Rudin, former president of the Association for a Better New York and NYU alumnus and trustee. There is no application to be considered for this scholarship. Applicants are automatically considered through their admission application materials.
#Delete 709
I am aware that “psychiatric oncology” is a thing. I am aware of the Louis and Rachel Rudin Scholarship Fund for Cornell students.
The “Rudin Scholarship for Psychiatric Oncology” continues to elude me.
Could not resist.
http://www.donotlink.com/ee2t
The old “DNA fragments cause autism.” bit.
According to this Blog anyone I mean anyone who questions vaccines is not credible and cannot be trusted. So let me get this straight only modern medicine can be trusted as the authority on vaccines? CDC FDA IOM DHHS AMA. Anyone outside this monopoly is a quack or a crank. Thats absurd! YOU LOSE for believing that.
Here is a small list of quacks or crackpot websites that are not acceptable to the minions on this site or the Monopoly
Dr tennpenny, Dr Humphries, Dr Mark Hyman, green med info, Kelly Brogan, Dr Mercola, Dr Jack wolfson, ALL chiropractors and naturopaths, Barbara Loe fisher, Parents who watched their child regress immediately after vaccinating, Robert Kennedy jr, researchers like Shoenfeld, Shaw. Dr Seneff all the documentaries like Bought, greater good, Trace amounts. They are all liars and frauds and cannot be trusted Seriously? Its because they don’t follow the myth anymore and have jumped the sinking TITANIC that is modern medicine! with its chemical approach to health that does not work!. you bafoons are sticking around to your doom.
So we have authority saying its safe cited by Kreb but we have independent researchers saying it is not safe.
hmm lets clear this up once and for all right?
IOM 2013
The committee does not endorse conducting a new randomized controlled clinical trial that would compare the health out- comes of unvaccinated children with their fully immunized peers. Although this is the strongest study design type then fucking do it! , ethical concerns prohibit this study, as unvaccinated individuals and communities intentionally would be left vulnerable to morbidity and mortality.
So, it’s prospectively unethical. OK, then what about a study of people who are already unvaccinated — you know, the Amish, homeschoolers, the HomeFirst practice in Chicago? Chiropractors, Christian Scientists, Bushmen, Waldorfers, Spenglerians, Hippie-Dippies (not my term!) in Ashland.
“Conducting human vax/unvax studies in existing unvaccinated groups would be so fraught with metholodical problems that they are ‘retrospectively impossible.’ As for controlled studies, they would be so burdened with permission probelems that they would be ‘prospectively unethical.’ In short, the resistance to the proposal to do vax/unvax work has not only taken the attitude of ‘we already know the answers,’ but ‘we should not seek to know.’ It’s pretty hard to make scientific progress in the face of this kind of epistemological nihilism.”
See here is the problem if >95% of the population is being pushed to vaccinate especially starting at birth. We will never know exactly what is causing all the diseases in this country.
The idea that the total health outcomes of vaccinated versus unvaccinated groups simply cannot be determined. It’s like some mad extrapolation of Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle to the macro-atomic level. You just can’t measure it!
WOW how convenient that is for the monopoly. Thats just great. I would want to keep it that way too if I were them.
Of course, progress is not what these folks are interested in. They are heavily invested in the status quo, in which autism is a mystery, whether it is increasing is a real fun debate to have, and more and more and more and more genes are kinda implicated in one way or the other. Meanwhile, the IOM suggests looking at the CDC’s very-own Vaccine Safety Database if anyone has any more annoying questions — an idea already knocked down by a Congressionally mandated, NIH-appointed panel.
So this is what the last gasps of a dying beast sound like, gagging on the Epistemological Obscenity.~AOA
If vaccines are in fact dangerous to long term health and it takes 5-10 years to manifest there is no way of knowing. <—**FACT** Thats why researchers are walking up saying. WAIT!! what if in fact it is the vaccines? hmm lets take a look.
They keep telling us its safe and effective but our children have never been sicker. A doctor can’t investigate vaccines for fear of being called a quack we have a serious problem with the truth and its no longer science Its DOGMA. That is powerful fact!
This shows the influence of this global monopoly. That is why vaccines are viciously protected. if they lose this argument (which they slowly are) the entire Myth of modern medicine is in jeopardy. It calls into question their approach to using Drug therapies, chemo and radiation. The establishment will NEVER EVER Admit vaccines are dangerous and are linked to Autism and Autoimmune diseases. EVER. Oh and please stop calling it a conspiracy theory its a monopoly with a power & profit motive.
Now if you can’t seem to understand that, then you need a lesson in the history of modern medicine. Have any of you actually looked up how we arrived where we are today? Why is it Naturopaths are called quacks? short video 6 mins explaining. the history on how chemicals became the only approved medicine.
@Theo
You may not be familiar with the terms “morbidity” and “mortality”, so I’ll explain them for you. Morbidity means “getting sick”, and mortality means “dying”. Are you really OK with killing and making people sick for science? Why should the rest of society be ok with that?
I’m confused. Various researchers all over the world have done that very kind of experiment, and you’ve dismissed them all in this very thread as being “easily manipulated”, perhaps because you didn’t like their results. I personally don’t consider experiments that involve literally millions of people to be that easy to manipulate.
If you honestly think that’s an accurate assessment of that paragraph on methodological challenges, I sincerely recommend you take a university class on research methods, or at least watch a good YouTube video on the subject.
I also have to wonder if you have a little of the “attitude of ‘we already know the answers,’ [and] ‘we should not seek to know”, given that you seem to have completely forgotten that there are multiple studies from all kinds of different institutions all over the world that are the very study design you just advocated for, and have dismissed their results summarily as being “easily manipulated.” It’s almost like you’re not willing to really let the facts influence your conclusions.
Some us actually like the fact that the real world is complicated with lots of things influencing it. I can understand why it’s more comforting to imagine that whenever something happens, it’s constantly because of the same one thing, but the real world doesn’t work that way. Even eye color doesn’t work that way, and eye pigments are a whole lot simpler than human brains.
You mean the one they already looked at and found no evidence at all to support your pet theory? The one that has been used to discover risks that happen at much lower rates than autism? Why do you think going over all that again would be a good use of money and time?
Except for, you know, epidemiological studies, which aren’t hard given that enormous amounts of people have been taking vaccines for more than five or ten years. You might want to look into the fact that there are a large number of such studies done all over the world, many of them by organizations like health insurance companies which would not benefit from manipulating them to hide risks.
Seriously? That doesn’t jive with my personal experience or with anything actual measurements I’ve seen. Back in the bad old days, we used to hide sick children. Where are they hiding now?
It’s kind of hard to justify that statement given that there have been vaccines that were pulled off the market. Were the researchers who discovered the problems with those vaccines mistreated in any way? Be specific.
It’s probably a safer thing to say that a doctor can’t cast aspersions on vaccines in contempt of massive evidence to the contrary without being called a quack. There’s probably a reason for that.
And yet strangely, the FDA requires risk information to be included with every package, and it’s considered unethical for doctors not to give risk information to each patient. It’s hard to reconcile that.
They also don’t admit that vaccines are linked to giving people superpowers.
You seem to have missed the part where there isn’t convincing evidence that autoimmune diseases are more common because of vaccination. They’d probably be more willing to admit it if it were true.
You seem to have not noticed that most countries have multiple vaccines from different countries licensed, and different countries license different vaccines. That doesn’t sound like a monopoly. Indeed, if you, Theo, developed a working vaccine, it is pretty likely it would get licensed and used. I suggest you give it a try, but watch out — getting a vaccine all the way through the testing process is notoriously hard.
You might not have noticed this, but the “different drummers” you like to quote and promote have power and profit motives as well.
They are all liars and frauds and cannot be trusted Seriously?
No, no, some of them are just demonstrably incompetent.
In related news, the Wayback Machine’s achive of A Photon in the Darkness seems to have been b0rk3d, although the new domain owner doesn’t actually seem to have a robots.txt file.
I meant theo, these guys posting here on Orac craft are supposed to represent some kind of elite!!!!!!
Poland rejected the myth of swine flu pandemic and the CDC labelled them as ‘undesirable’. Who the Fxxx are the CDC to say that just because Poland didn’t buy their jollop. All those financial experts who totally fxxxxx the world economy and the military experts who have destabilized the middle East. I think we are all sick of medical experts telling us we are all going to die. Where is the positive here?
They moderate anything that doesn’t suck up to the Pharm
I am still not Mr Hiill and never was!
The people you offer as authorities on vaccine safety and efficacy–Tenpenny, Humphries, Mercola, Wolfson, Barbara Loe fisher, etc.–don’t lack credibility because they ask questions: they lack crediblity because they not only make demonstrably false statements but continue to makethe same false statements long after being shown repeatedly evidence demonstrating their claims to be false.
Which isn’t sufficient to demonstrate that the vaccines they received caused their children to regress.
First, note that the idea that the Amish do not vaccinate is a myth (see http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2011/06/23/peds.2009-2599.abstract)
Second, the retrospective studies you’re calling for have been done, at very large scales, by multiple independent researchers and public and private health agencies in multiple nations–none of which have found evidence of a causal association between vaccination and autism spectrum disorders.
that doesn’t it isn’t possible to rule out potential causes, and at this point–after more than a decade of investigation including multiple very large retrospective epidemiologic studies, it’s safe to say taht whenever we do identify the proximate causes of autism, routine childhood vaccination will not be on the list.
Sure there is: post marketing surveillance and the retropsective studies you suggested previously, both of which are ongoing.
Citations needed, desparately.
In the absence of any evidence demonstrating the existance of such causal links, there’s nothing to admit.
So—got any?
Perhaps because it embraces modalities either not known to be effective or known to actually be ineffective (for example, homeopathy, which is such an integral element of naturopathic medicine that classes in homeopathy are part of every naturopathy curriculum and questions ascertaining a prospective ND’s knowledge of homeopathy are included in the NPLEX licensing exam).
Why is it Naturopaths are called quacks?
It must be the “walking like a duck and sounding like a duck” part.
OK, then what about a study of people who are already unvaccinated — you know, the Amish, homeschoolers, the HomeFirst practice in Chicago? Chiropractors, Christian Scientists, Bushmen, Waldorfers, Spenglerians, Hippie-Dippies (not my term!) in Ashland.
This passage displays a relative felicity of spelling and grammar, and sure enough the words are not Theo’s but are an unacknowledged cut-and-paste from an Olmstead screed of several years ago, extensively — one might even say exhaustively — rebutted in the past.
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2013/01/17/quoth-iom-vaccine-schedule-is-safe-and-effective/
Some people are not just to be mistrusted because “they are all liars and frauds”; they cannot be trusted because they are lazy, skeevy time-wasting plagiarists who knew nothing and cared nothing about an issue until they went dumpster-diving in old AoA archives, and don’t understand the issue well enough to come up with their own expression of concern, and haven’t looked into the issue for the 30 seconds required to see how thoroughly it has been refuted.
If they also happen to peddle MLM nutrients / supplements, that’s another reason for distrust.
Christian Scientists, Bushmen, Waldorfers, Spenglerians, Hippie-Dippies
Theo, since you repeated Olmsted’s words, and presumably you stand by them, could you explain what “Spenglerians” are doing in the list, and why the followers of an obscure, pessimistic, cyclical view of history should abstain from vaccination?
Nor does it look good to repeat his racist use of the pejorative word “Bushmen”. I don’t know where Olmsted got the notion that the Kalahari San are an unvaccinated population — perhaps he just leaped to the conclusion that “They are dark-skinned and primitive and exotic, they *must* be unvaccinated” — but would you like to address the facts yourself, or run away from them?
I presume that this is to be found in Philip Hills’ files alongside the “official CDC statement” about the “unknown woman.”
Link’s broken.
Link’s broken.
It was
a deliberate error to see who in the class was paying attentionstolen by the Illuminati.http://www.lac.org.na/projects/lead/Pdf/sannami.pdf
theo, if you think science-based investigators are so corrupt and tainted, why do you insist on they doing the vaxxed/anti-vaxxed study? Why not rush to any of the persons on your list and tell them to do the study…
You may not be familiar with the terms “morbidity” and “mortality”, so I’ll explain them for you. Morbidity means “getting sick”, and mortality means “dying”. Are you really OK with killing and making people sick for science? Why should the rest of society be ok with that?
Thats straight up fear mongering and not true. Nobody is going to die. <—MYTH There are plenty of parents willing to advance science and offer their unvaccinated child for study. There are 10s of 1000s of unvaccinated children all over the USA. THRIVING look at the amish are they dying? look at the the children of Chiropracters they dont vaccinate either. so Paleeassse …….. Wouldnt you want to know what 49 doses vs 0 doses does. I sure do.
I’m confused. Various researchers all over the world have done that very kind of experiment, and you’ve dismissed them all in this very thread as being “easily manipulated”, perhaps because you didn’t like their results. I personally don’t consider experiments that involve literally millions of people to be that easy to manipulate.
There has never been a VAX vs UNVAX study if so please cite it. There have been phone surveys of the unvaxxed showing clearly that they get less ear infections and allergies etc.
there are multiple studies from all kinds of different institutions all over the world that are the very study design you just advocated for,
They only studied vaccinated populations against Autism. If you were to watch Trace Amounts the new documentary from Kennedy he clearly lays out the problems in these types of studies and how they deliberately throw out outliers rerun the statistics to make their case better. The CDC has actually found a correlation to autism and vaccines but its been covered up and at least 2 occasions that we know. Watch the screening and get the other side is all I ask anyone here to do.
Seriously? That doesn’t jive with my personal experience or with anything actual measurements I’ve seen. Back in the bad old days, we used to hide sick children. Where are they hiding now?
Well lets see its Autism Awareness month, 1 in 68 kids get it. then you have ADD and ADHD, Asthma is up significantly May 3, 2011 — The number of people with asthma has been rising in recent years, but CDC researchers say in a new report that they aren’t sure why.
The CDC says that the number of people diagnosed with asthma grew by 4.3 million between 2001 and 2009, when one in 12 Americans were told they had the lung disease. The proportion of people of all ages with asthma in the U.S. increased from 7.3% (20.3 million people) in 2001 to 8.2% (24.6 million people) in 2009.
TYPE 1 Diabetes
For reasons that are completely mysterious, however, the incidence of type 1 diabetes has been increasing throughout the globe at rates that range from 3 to 5 percent a year. Although the second trend is less well publicized, it is still deeply troubling, because this form of the illness has the potential to disable or kill people so much earlier in their lives“Increases such as the ones that have been reported cannot be explained by a change in genes in such a short period,”
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-diabetes-cliffhanger/
It’s kind of hard to justify that statement given that there have been vaccines that were pulled off the market. Were the researchers who discovered the problems with those vaccines mistreated in any way? Be specific.
look up Dr Tenpenny or Dr Suzzane Humphries and see what they call them. They are uncovering BIOLOGICAL research implicating negative effects of vaccines. Clearly you have not been across the fence to explore the opposing side of this argument.
You seem to have missed the part where there isn’t convincing evidence that autoimmune diseases are more common because of vaccination. They’d probably be more willing to admit it if it were true.
With out a long tern study comparing VAX vs UNVAX we sadly will never know.
You seem to have not noticed that most countries have multiple vaccines from different countries licensed, and different countries license different vaccines.
There are only 4 vaccine makers and every govt buys from them. Its a Global powerhouse. while I am on the subject. We may have removed most of the mercury containing Thimerasol from vaccines in the USA all we did was send that garbage over to Africa they still use it.
And if you magically enroll every single one in a study, what do you think the extent of what could be demonstrated (on a single endpoint, mind you) would be?
What degree of similarity between the two groups would convince you that the effect you insist is present in fact isn’t?
Oh, yay, it does still exist at the Wayback Machine.
Here,
IlayaTheotheoTHEO.“There has never been a VAX vs UNVAX study”
Wrong. There have been several (another is in the works). Here are links to two of them:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3057555/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2260220
The first of those two found no significant health differences between vaccinated and unvaccinated kids – except that the unvaccinated children were much more likely to get sick with vaccine-preventable diseases.
Such studies are not the sort of prospective, large-scale studies that antivaxers want (and which would be grossly unethical), but the results we’ve seen can’t be pleasing to the antivax mentality.
THEO,
How can you say that when 255 children died of pertussis in the US between 2000 and 2012 and tens of thousands die every year from influenza, that’s not even getting into rotavirus, measles and menigitis which used to kill hundreds every year?
Firstly, you can’t just compare those who choose to vaccine to those who don’t because of a multitude of confounding factors, not least that those who don’t vaccinate tend not to see competent doctors who will spot various health problems.
Secondly, as JGC pointed out with good evidence, it is a myth that the Amish don’t vaccinate – why do you repeat something that you know to be untrue?
Thirdly, what makes you think unvaccinated children are thriving when their chances of getting VPDs are so much higher than the unvaccinated?
I think what I intended is clear despite the blockquote fail.
Dammit I shouldn’t post when I’m in a hurry – the broken link should be Here’s a list of 180 or so vaccine manufacturers and I meant 2000, not 200.