If there’s one thing that will annoy an antivaccinationist, it’s to call her what she is: Antivaccine. While it’s true, as I’ve pointed out on numerous occasions, that there are some antivaccinationists who are antivaccine and proud, unabashedly proclaiming themselves antivaccine and making no bones about it, the vast majority of antivaccinationists deny they are antivaccine. They frequently retort that they are “not antivaccine” but rather “pro-vaccine safety” or some such dodge. Most recently, we’ve seen this tack taken by Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. (and, of course, Bill Maher) himself, the man whose unhinged conspiracy mongering screed was my “gateway” to noticing and deconstructing antivaccine beliefs nearly a decade ago. it’s a refrain I first noticed in a big way when the celebrity face of the antivaccine movement, Jenny McCarthy herself, started using it. Whenever I start hearing that “I’m not antivaccine” refrain, I like to dig up examples of rhetoric from the antivaccine movement to put the lie to that claim. Of course, “dig up” is probably the wrong term; I rarely have to look far, and so it was this time..
Mike Adams let it rip, possibly surpassing even what I thought to be the most vile analogy every made about vaccines. It was by an Marcella Piper-Terry, comparing vaccination to rape. True, it could be argued that comparisons to the Holocaust are worse, but let’s just say it’s a tossup. Not surprisingly, Mikey’s latest rants are in response to California bill SB 277, which is a bill currently wending its way through the California Senate that would eliminate nonmedical exemptions to school vaccine mandates. Of course, any attempt to make exemptions to chool vaccine mandates harder to obtain causes the antivaccine movement to go into paroxysms of Holocaust analogies, complete with images of jackbooted fascists knocking on parents’ doors in the middle of the night, syringes in hand, to throw the parents aside and vaccinate their children forcibly.
Coming back to the rape analogy, that’s where Adams goes with a post entitled Progressive lawmakers in California violate women’s rights with SB 277; children to be physically violated by government without parental consent and SB 277 will unleash “medical civil war” in California as parents demand doctors be arrested for felony assault. The level of paranoia in these screeds is truly beyond belief; that is, unless you’ve never encountered Adams before. Actually, the spin Adams tries to put on this is to make “vaccine choice” a matter of women’s rights:
Seriously, this is stupid even by Mike Adams standards. Here’s a taste of the written version, but to experience the full stupidity, you really need to watch the video:
California lawmakers pushing the mandatory vaccine initiative SB 277 are almost all Democrats. These are the same people who defiantly defend the right of “a woman’s choice” to decide the issue of abortion. We are repeatedly told that abortion is the woman’s choice alone, and that no government, no man and no doctor can force a woman to do something with her body against her will.
This also holds true with the issue of sexual encounters, where we are frequently reminded that NO means NO. If the woman doesn’t consent, then it’s called rape. So what do you call a forced medical intervention that physically violates a woman’s body against her wishes? “Medical rape” doesn’t seem quite appropriate. There must be a more poignant term for it.
Do you see the the problem with this analogy? It’s incredibly obvious. SB 277 has nothing to do with forcing women to receive vaccinations they don’t want. There’s nothing in the bill that would do that, nor is there anything any pro-vaccine advocate proposes that would compel an adult woman (or man) to be vaccinated against her (or his) will. That’s not what school vaccine mandates are about. None of this stops Adams from going full mental jacket antivax on the video, ranting about “toxins” and “formaldehyde” while referring to vaccines “maiming” children and implying that the government will require pregnant women to be vaccinated, thus causing all sorts of birth defects. His antivaccine dog whistles are whistling to the point that even mere humans can hear them behind Adams’ cries of “choice,” “human dignity,” “civil rights,” and “human freedom.”
There’s another aspect of Adams’ truly silly analogy here that might not be obvious on the surface. Adams goes on and on about the supposed disconnect between what liberals believe about women when it comes to reproductive choice and giving consent to sex, as well as its anti-corporatism, to what he describes as their advocacy of giving corporations the power to “violate” women with “forced vaccination.” Think about the assumption behind this whole line of “reasoning” (if you can call it that). The only assumption that makes this argument coherent (if you can call it that and even then it’s still wrong on many other levels) is if you assume that the child is an extension of the woman’s body. Thus, “violating” the child by “forced vaccination” is violating the woman. It’s hard not to look at it any other way.
Indeed, Adams seems to be doing Rand Paul even one better. Remember how Rand Paul, interrupting a female reporter’s question about his stance on school vaccine mandates, said, “The state doesn’t own the children. Parents own the children, and it is an issue of freedom.” Here, Adams seems to be saying that children aren’t even property. They’re just extension of the woman’s body.
Either that, or Adams thinks his audience is too stupid not to discern the difference between forcing an adult woman to be vaccinated (which is not what is being considered, given that every adult has the right to refuse any medical intervention and no one—I mean, no one—is questioning that) and requiring a child to be vaccinated before she can attend school. It could easily be either—or both.
Adams tries to make hay out of claiming that “injection without consent is a violation of the American Medical Association’s code of ethics:
A mandatory vaccination policy — forced vaccination of unwilling recipients — is, by definition, a medical intervention carried out without the consent of the patient or the patient’s parents. This directly violates the very clear language in the Informed Consent section of the AMA Code of Medical Ethics which states:
The patient should make his or her own determination about treatment… Informed consent is a basic policy in both ethics and law that physicians must honor, unless the patient is unconscious or otherwise incapable of consenting and harm from failure to treat is imminent.
The AMA’s Code of Medical Ethics statement is very clear: “physicians must honor” the policy of informed consent. In fact, the AMA describes this as “a basic policy in both ethics and law” and only makes exception if the patient “is unconscious” or if harm from failure to treat “is imminent.”
Except that, again, this is not “forced” vaccination. Parents can still refuse to vaccinate their children. However, if they do so, then they must realize that there will be consequences flowing from that decision. Children attending school have a right to a safe school environment, and unvaccinated children endanger that environment by making outbreaks of vaccine-preventable disease more likely. Questions like this always boil down to a question of balancing individual rights versus the good of society. Also in the mix is the right of the child to proper medical care, particularly preventative care like vaccines, a right that people like Rand Paul and Mike Adams dismiss completely. To them, the child is nothing more than a possession or extension of the parents.
In any case, as Dorit Reiss explains, the doctrine of informed consent does not trump public health mandates and potential tort liability:
Does the Doctrine of Informed Consent Trump Public Health Mandates and Potential Tort Liability?
To repeat, the short answer is no. First, public health regulation always imposes some burden on the exercise of autonomy. Second, one may have both the private right to informed consent before vaccination and the public health obligation to be vaccinated. And the existence of the doctrine of informed consent does not mean there will be no other consequences to the informed decision that one makes.
And:
Since the famous case of Jacobson v. Massachusetts, states have had wide powers to regulate for the public health – and, more particularly, impose immunization requirements – even at some cost to individual rights. Note that even Jacobson acknowledged that individual rights are not absolute. Laws passed by the states in this context must meet constitutional standards. For example, most scholars see Jacobson as constitutionally requiring that a state allow a medical exemption to immunization requirements.
But as long as they meet constitutional requirements, states may legislate or regulate to protect the public health. The requirements they put in place are not inconsistent with and do not violate informed consent. For example, quarantine laws are extremely coercive, imposing very strong limits on private autonomy – but they are constitutional, and no, they do not violate informed consent (pdf), either. Nor do school immunization requirements – even those without non-medical exemptions.
In other words, Adams’ argument, as you might imagine, is a smokescreen without any basis in law or a compelling basis in ethics. Not that this stops Adams from predicting a “medical civil war” in which parents will demand that doctors be arrested for felony assault. Now, I’m not a lawyer, nor do I even play one in the blogosphere, but even I recognize Adams’ legal reasoning as being—shall we say?—fantasy-based. He uses as part of his basis a law in Ohio that allows charging an HIV-positive person with “felonious assault” for having sex with someone without informing him or her of that positive HIV status, which makes me wonder why the same law doesn’t include people with hepatitis B or C, both of which are also potentially deadly diseases and far more likely to be transmitted in a single act of sexual intercourse than HIV. Adams also cites federal law:
According to federal law enforcement, a needle is categorized as a “weapon” in the context of a physical assault. For example, if you were to acquire the blood of an HIV-positive person, fill a syringe with it, then assault someone with that needle, you would not only be charged with a felony assault, but an assault with a deadly weapon (the needle).
Under Ohio law, for example, it is explained as: “…causing or attempting to cause serious harm with a deadly weapon or a firearm — referred to in the Ohio statutes as a ‘dangerous ordnance.'”
When administered without consent, a vaccine injection is a physical violation of a human body. The substance contained in the vaccine is provably harmful and, in some cases, even deadly. Under Ohio sentencing guidelines, an individual forcing a vaccination upon someone without their consent would be committing a “felonious assault with dangerous ordnance.”
Excuse me. I can’t go on; I need a break. I’m laughing too hard as I read the above passage again.
OK, I’m fine again.
Talk about some mental contortions! See Mikey shamelessly mix federal and state law (of a single state, yet) to come up with a new legal “theory” that lets him label vaccination as a “felonious assault with dangerous ordnance”! The rest of what flows from Adams’ assumptions is simply too dumb to be real, except that I know it is real, because Mike Adams is capable of such depths. Read his rationale for how doctors committing “vaccine violence” against children would earn 41 months in federal prison (or more). But be prepared. Steel yourself. If you have any critical thinking skills, knowledge of vaccines, and even a rudimentary knowledge of the law on par with what many educated people do, you will have a headache from tightly clenched teeth, which will lose some enamel from grinding. It all depends upon Adams’ considering needles on syringes containing vaccines as needles “containing a potentially dangerous substance” and such needles are considered a “dangerous weapon” by all law enforcement organizations. Based on this speculation, Adams cranks the crazy up to 11 and writes:
Under both federal and state law, parents who believe their children face the risk of imminent harm from a violent attack upon their bodies have every right to call 911 and request armed police officers come to their defense to stop the assault and arrest those attempting to commit those acts of violence.
I am now publicly predicting that, should SB 277 be signed into law, we will see a wave of California parents calling 911 to report their doctors while demanding the government press felony assault charges against medical personnel engaged in vaccine violence.
The sad thing is, I have no doubt that, should SB 277 pass (something that is still going to require a battle), there will be an antivaccinationist or two (or maybe even three) who will try what Adams suggests. My counter-prediction is that any police called for such a purpose will not take it seriously, to put it mildly. I can picture the 911 operator silently laughing and pointing at her headset, as if to say, “Get a load of this loon!” Even Adams seems to recognize that, predicting that the police won’t arrest the doctor or nurse giving the vaccine, but still asserts that “parents will retain the right of CIVIL prosecution of those doctors for violating their civil rights.” Yes, I’d love to see someone try that argument in front of a judge. The entertainment value would be enormous.
Meanwhile, the “not anti-vaccine” minion at the antivaccine crank blog Age of Autism, Ken Heckenlively, wonders when they’ll “start shooting antivaxxers.”
Coming back to the frequent clutching of pearls exhibited by antivaccinationists in response to being called “antivaccine,” it’s hard to take them seriously when, to them, seemingly vaccination is the Holocaust. It’s the Oklahoma City bombing. It’s Auschwitz (complete with Dr. Josef Mengele’s horrific experiments), before which antivaccinationists view themselves as much victims as Jews in Germany during the Nazi regime. It’s Stalin. It’s the Tuskegee syphilis experiment. It’s a tsunami washing away everything before it.
And it’s a “violation” (i.e., rape) too.
And now it’s felonious assault, violence, an attack worthy of calling the police over. Adams might be what I like to colloquially call batshit crazy, but his rhetoric is useful because it tends to be the same as that of other antivaccinationists, just with the conspiracy mongering an crazy turned up to 11. If you look at others, you’ll find echoes of the same sort of rhetoric. Rare is the case when I see anyone on the “antivaccine” side publicly call out rhetoric like this, even when someone like Mike Adams likens vaccines to the Holocaust, sexual assault, human trafficking, or felonious assault. It is worth repeating that the reason, I suspect, is because most antivaccinationists are at least sympathetic to such analogies but don’t use them publicly because they know how inflammatory and despicably ridiculous those not steeped in the false victimhood of the antivaccine cult find them. Perhaps next time I will provide more examples, this time from antivaccine physicians, some of whom we’ve met before. After all, even a seemingly “mainstream” (in the antivaccine movement) group like the Autism Media Channel refers to “vaccine violence.”
1,229 replies on “The annals of "I'm not antivaccine," part 16: Felonious assault, deadly ordnance, and "vaccine violence," oh, my!”
Actually, in both cases there is nothing to be forced against one’s will. Well, aside from being forced to abide by the social contract.
I mean, for some jobs, like in healthcare, employee vaccination is a requirement.
Similarly, for school attendance, vaccination is required.
There is no ambush, it was told to people before they enlist.
And if, on second thoughts, they don’t want to be vaccinated, fine. The door out is this way.
Adams’s argument is, as they say, fractally wrong. It starts out on a false premise (SB 277 does not mean forced vaccination) and just gets worse from there.
I have no doubt that Mikey knows this because the reality is so mundane as to not make a rational person even blink he has to come up with this tosh to get attention. I believe that they do perceive this as forced vaccination because they are using the school system, in part, as daycare and do not see homeschooling as an option ergo they will be “forced” to vaccinate their special snowflakes in order to attend school.
The Australian (anti)-Vaccination Network tried this one on a week ago.
The background is that the Australian Government is trying to make it harder for anti-vaxers to use conscientious objections to vaccination in order to gain benefits that are given to families that vaccinate their children. The anti-vaxers are complaining. They want the benefits, but don’t want to vaccinate their children.
The AVsN has been given a right touching up by the press. http://www.news.com.au/national/australian-vaccination-skeptics-network-compares-vaccines-to-rape-in-facebook-post/story-fncynjr2-1227315985884
“Health Minister Sussan Ley said vaccination did not equate to rape and to suggest otherwise was not only “repulsive”, but “off the planet”.
“This type of ill-informed and, frankly, disgusting campaign only serves to inform parents about the dangers of listening to these groups peddling anti-vaccine myths,” Ms Ley said.”
See Mikey shamelessly mix federal and state law (of a single state, yet)
And not even the state under discussion. Last I checked, Ohio and California were about 3000 km apart. It would be one thing to bring up Ohio law in a discussion of something happening in Ohio–probably wrong (IANAL, and neither is Mike Adams), but if the strategy is to throw a bunch of stuff against the wall and see what sticks (which seems to be Mike’s MO), he might get lucky. Ohio law is of no relevance to the discussion of California. I have to wonder whether there is any such precedent in California, or if there is whether it is as unambiguous as Mike would want it to be.
My counter-prediction is that any police called for such a purpose will not take it seriously, to put it mildly. I can picture the 911 operator silently laughing and pointing at her headset, as if to say, “Get a load of this loon!”
I would not take either side of this bet. All it takes is for one 911 operator not to do this for big trouble to result. The operator need not even be anti-vax friendly, if she is in CYA mode and dispatches a police officer, just in case. At that point you would be counting on the intelligence of the police officer who responds, and judging from recent headlines, I get the impression that “police intelligence” is an even bigger oxymoron than “military intelligence”.
Oh, I’m not saying that the dispatcher might not be obligated to dispatch an officer to investigate, but I doubt most dispatchers would take such a claim of “assault” that seriously themselves.
If SB 277 actually passes and is signed into law (and I wouldn’t bet on it), it’ll be interesting to see if Adams goes a step further to encourage violence against physicians (as he did with advocates for biotechnology). Or did he learn a lesson from the blowback after his GMO adventure?
If 911 in California starts to get calls related to vaccination, I’d be concerned that they’d relate to actions by antivax extremists, not physicians doing their jobs.
Orac:
“…the difference between forcing an adult woman to be vaccinated (which is not what is being considered, given that every adult has the right to refuse any medical intervention and no one—I mean, no one—is questioning that)”
The right to refuse, but with no guarantee that the refusal will be honored:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/04/29/the-right-paperwork-for-your-end-of-life-wishes/
Once again, I suggest that fixing the issues with the practice of medicine would do more to promote well being than crazy ranting about crazy ranters.
Let’s make vaccination of children a public health matter, carried out by the government. When the appropriate age comes, you go to the school building on designated days and have it done, for free.
If you want to opt out, you go there and opt out, and deal with the later consequences. But everyone is treated equally, and it is a community activity.
Results might be interesting; we could do a study on compliance.
zebra, you appear to be suggesting that parents who refuse to have their children vaccinated might have them vaccinated against their will. That is certainly not what will happen.
The rape analogy has always struck me as particularly clumsy. No one can consent to sex on the child’s behalf, but either the guardian or the state provides the required consent to medical treatments on the child’s behalf. Even if there were forced vaccination, which there is not, it would still not be analogous to rape.
“Let’s make vaccination of children a public health matter, carried out by the government. When the appropriate age comes, you go to the school building on designated days and have it done, for free. ”
Not a bad idea – we had something like it in the UK when I was a child in the 50s. ‘vaccination days’ were held at the local clinic and it was a genuine community event – I remember the queues were out of the door and down the street.
However, in the 50s most mothers were able to stay at home with their kids; even the few who had to work and couldn’t afford to take time off weren’t short of neighbours who could take her child with theirs.
These days, they’d have to accomadate working parents and hold vaccination days late into the evenings and at weekends, and it wouldn’t really be so much of a community event.
Mikey disparages “loopy liberal logic”!
At any rate, he’s best described as a libertarian (loon) so why not?
Null has been caught in a similar rut: to him, criticising anti-vaxxers- who are mostlly women- makes whomever does so a misogynist. AND it also allows him to heap derision upon liberals ( the ” corporate left”) by mentioning well-known publications or commenters who support vaccination.
His ‘documentaries’ feature anti-vaxxers who are predominantly women- including Drs Humphries, Bark, Banks and Tenpenny- as well as mothers.
His own political affiliation is ‘progressive libertarian” which basically means he wants the government to stay away from regulating his businesses and his pseudo-medical activities as well as from taxing his money.
In a recent video, RFK also noticed that those who first tried to inveigle him into supporting their cause ( when he opposed mercury from coal-burning power plants) were these incredibly intelligent and well-spoken WOMEN. The mothers who KNEW vaccines damaged their children.
The aforementioned pandering rabble rousers would probably say absolutely anything to get people to rally to support their dodgy cause as well as pad their gigantic egos. Like Andy, they learned long ago that here was a group of emotionally involved activists who immediately lauded anyone who agreed with their blindingly unrealistic theories- they find their audience ready and willing.
What do you call someone who takes advantage of women as a business decision?
I surprised that none of these charlatans hasn’t yet shrieked
‘Girl Power’.
Just a question ….
I’ve heard a few commenters- at the usual Kaffee Klatschs of iniquity- claim that their new born infants were vaccinated WITHOUT their consent- usually hep B but other vaccines have been mentioned. They claim that they gave orders against vaccination sometimes. They advise other mothers to keep the infant with them AT ALL TIMES. I’ve heard this at the Vaccine Machine facebook too.
How likely is that scenario?
#9 julian frost,
Not at all. It’s just about changing the context; I conjecture that it might produce better results.
@Helianthus
“Actually, in both cases there is nothing to be forced against one’s will. Well, aside from being forced to abide by the social contract.
I mean, for some jobs, like in healthcare, employee vaccination is a requirement.
Similarly, for school attendance, vaccination is required.”
Depending on the political leanings (i.e. anarchists, libertarians, ect.) of the person abiding by the social contract can actually be seen as a tyranny on par with Nazism and the USSR. This is especially true if policies infringe on a pet idea of theirs.
Sadly, it’s not just Mike Adams that goes down the road of problematic analogies. In her testimony before the Judiciary Committee on Tuesday, Ms. Mary Holland compared the law to rape – earning a sharp rebuke from the committee chair, compared it to segregation in the pre-Brown days, and raised the specter of non-vaccinating parents being jailed (I know the idea has been raised in the media, but I don’t think anyone supporting this bill actually supports it).
http://www.calchannel.com/recent-archive/ starts at 15:10, Ms. Holland starts at 57:10.
A. And re community event: some immunization coalitions actually organize local immunization clinics, to help those with access problems. Would that fit that? But remember that the anti-vaccine people express concern that their children will be force vaccinated if efforts are, for example, held in school.
B. @Denise Walter: it would be illegal. But: hospitals are encouraged to have high vaccination rates, and since most parents do vaccinate, a nurse may assume there’s consent if she doesn’t know differently. So not impossible. But I would treat any such story with caution, especially since the other side is prohibited from responding.
Our local elementary schools hold Flu vaccine clinics every year – both parents and students are encouraged to attend….
@Denise #12
When our son was born (1999) the Hep B vaccine recommendation for newborns was new and we declined to have him get it at that time. We even put a notice on the door of my hospital room that we didn’t want any vaccines for our newborn.
My husband told me (I was sleeping a lot after the birth) that every time the nurses changed shift, one of them would come in and try to give our son that vaccination. Since my husband was always there, he would explain to the nurse that we didn’t want it. She would accept that and then, after the next shift change, the scenario would be repeated. I can easily believe that had my dh not been there, my son might have been vaccinated while I was sleeping and without our permission. I don’t know how common that would have been, but I do find it likely that it happened at times.
Dangerous Bacon:
I’ve been pretty active in advocating for the bill — been to three of the four hearings — I’m guardedly optimistic. The “experts” the opposition has had testify have not been particularly impressive. I tremendously enjoyed hearing Senator Holly J. Mitchell put Bob Sears in his place. Senator Hannah-Beth Jackson stopped Mary Holland in her tracks several times for hyperbole and lack of legal grounding.
We will see.
@ GWD
Yes, I know. I’m actually not pleased with my wording, because it’s dragging in superfluous elements.
My meaning when using “contract” was more like:
“I could employ you, but we will have to abide by my enterprise’s standard policy: employees should get such and such vaccine”
or:
“Our school would gladly accept your children. Be warned that it will be required for them to be vaccinated against such and such diseases”
In short, a contract between two entities. No-one forced to do anything, but to pay for his side of the contract.
I do hope that even the more hard-line libertarian/anarchist doesn’t believe that he can just come in and grab whatever he wants.
Actually, no, I don’t hope this anymore, because a number of antivaxers did show a strong sense of personal entitlement.
Did you notice the Whole Foods grocery bags in the last shot?
Anyone care to ask Whole Foods corporation what they think about their trademarked logo being used in that manner?
I’d be willing to bet they say “Whoa there! Product placement not authorized!” and demand it get taken out of the video.
We can help them a bit by saying we buy fresh veggies etc. at Whole Foods but we’re going to stop because they’ve authorized a product placement in a dastardly quack video that’s more full of —- than a manure trailer on an organic farm.
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Adams uses a classic propaganda technique: Ask a bunch of rhetorical questions that everyone agrees about, to get the viewer answering each one “Yes!” Then the viewers are more likely to respond to your key propaganda questions with a “Yes!”
But I hope he manages to get that video seen by everyone in the CA legislature, because most of them are smart enough to recognize it for what it is. And once they see that, they are going to be more likely to write off Mikey’s gang as a bunch of loons.
If I were him I’d be more concerned about the legislature expanding the criteria for a “51-50” involuntary three-day psychiatric hospitalization.
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911 operators are selected for the job because they can keep a level head on their shoulders while dealing with people who are screaming and dying at the other end of the phone. They are not likely to play into this stuff.
And, they are also used to dealing with raving lunatics on the phone. Which is what they will think when someone calls them up to say “help!, police!, there’s a doctor giving a kid a needle!”
#16 Dorit Reiss,
I refer you to the NYT article I referenced and also Beth at #18.
It is difficult to allay fears when the fears are grounded in some reality. That’s why I recommend people like Orac deal with beams before taking on the motes.
My suggestion was for parents to take their kids to be vaccinated, or show up, sans children, to sign a form declining. That way there is equal treatment, and a clear record; I understand from reading that the records can be a real issue.
Mike mentions that he shops at WF and in his bio says that you might see him at their market in Austin. Of course, it’s much better to grow your own organic produce like HE does on his ranch.
He praises Dr Oz and now has rhapsodised about the brand new water filtration system he’s tested in his ‘forensic lab’.
I wonder how much they pay him?
There’s a Nature “Futures” story that seems appropriate here. Too bad that it is still fiction. However, read and enjoy:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v489/n7414/full/489170a.html
We’ve been over this before, but anarchism has no problems with having a social contract and enforcing it within a group, it just objects to the idea of top-down rule. Not that I’m saying it’s a practical way to rule a society, but it’s a bit different from how people imagine it, and actually more socially-oriented than yer typical libertarian philosophy.
In any case, you don’t hear much about anti-vax anarchists, probably because anarchists would tend to be more concerned about actual assault by the state, like cops shooting unarmed people in the back, breaking their spines in custody, etc. Anti-vaxxers are just garden variety entitled babies.
I really fail to see the humor in “jokes” of this sort.
zebra@8
Did you even read that link? You can’t honor a document you don’t have, not to mention EMTs don’t (legally can’t) honor advance directives. And once the daughters arrived with the advanced directive the ICU physcian took him off life support. If anything it’s a story about how doctors need to better prepare their patients for end of life. He really should have had a POLST to start with. Competely unrelated you your claim.
JP @ 25: “51-50” is the legal provision for civil commitment of persons found to be in a mental state that poses “a danger to self or others.” Mikey is clearly delusional in a manner that poses a danger to others, as our recent measles outbreak demonstrates. QED.
zebra@22
I’d imagine that there would be HIPPA issues. Show up without your kid and it’s obvious he’s not getting vaccinated. I’m pretty sure that’s unacceptable protected health information leakage. Maybe Dorit can give some insight.
@Gray Squirrel:
I know what the f*ck “51-50” is. I also know people who have been involuntarily held because they posed an immediate danger to themselves. I don’t find the subject particularly amusing, and I don’t appreciate your condescension on the matter, either.
@ Gray Squirrel:
I don’t think that Mikey is delusional in the clinical sense-
that’s a mark of a SMI-
– he spends a great deal of time manipulating people’s emotions so that they’ll buy his products
– he made profits at several of his businesses
– it appears he’s managed to avoid breaking the law and being sued despite his writing
– he has a rather large group of devoted followers who take his advice and spread his swill around the net
– he knows enough about how people will feel and react to
his work to say ‘the right thing’ to get what he wants
That doesn’t sound like SMI to me.
Of course, I wouldn’t rule out a laundry list of other psychological problems and socially despicable actions that he habitually incorporates in his daily life but, SMI, no.
#26 capnkrunch
“POLST”
You do understand that requiring permission from a doctor to exercise your right to avoid treatment is oxymoronic, right?
Read the comments on that NYT piece; I know those are anecdotes but I don’t think anyone would claim that there aren’t serious obstacles to patients and families having their ‘rights’ respected.
Civil discourse from The Chronicle of Higher Education:
http://chronicle.com/article/Universities-Aim-to/229787/?key=SDl7cwA3YixCbX5iZ2xCYToAO3BoZksmMnUZaXoiblFcFg==
Universities Aim to Investigate Alternative Medicine, Not Promote It
Anti-vaccine people are an unfortunate reality of our society. I, in no way, want to make light of this situation, so please forgive my off-topic post. I just thought it worth your time, ORAC. Where i live, anti-vaxxers seem to be more of an internet only phenomenon, but that might just be my luck.
#28 capnkrunch,
I am not suggesting a perp-walk for those people, just that they have to go to the school office at some point to sign a document in person. It’s about everyone being treated equally.
It is difficult to allay fears when the fears are grounded in some reality.
Exactly what “reality” is Mike Adam’s hysterical rhetoric about forced vaccination grounded in? The article you linked to was about the much more complex issue of end-of-life care: specifically, a case where the doctors weren’t told the patient didn’t want to be resuscitated or put on machines until after he was put on a respirator following a 911 call. In a situation like this, health care providers are obligated to do everything they can to keep the patient alive unless the family specifically instructs them not to.
Vaccination is not an analogous situation – people don’t panic and call 911 to get their kids vaccinated and then forget to tell the EMTs that they don’t actually want their kids vaccinated. To get a vaccine (at least the ones that are required for school) you have to take your kid to the doctor’s office, sign a consent form, and hold the kid (or at least be present) while the doctor sticks the needle in. It’s not the kind of thing that’s going to happen by accident because of a lack of communication.
I find Beth’s story more disturbing – what exactly do you mean by the nurses would “try” to give your baby the HepB vaccination? They had a syringe all ready to go and just walked over the the baby and to all appearances would have given the shot if your husband hadn’t said anything? Or they repeatedly came in and asked to give the shot (or, instead of asking, they may have just said something like, “look’s like you still need the HepB shot” – I remember being trained to do that as a nursing assistant because it still gave the patient a chance to refuse while avoiding a drawn out discussion. But then, I was working this elderly nursing home patients who were frequently confused, so I don’t know if that’s a standard nursing practice.) I don’t have kids, but every time I’ve gotten a shot I had to sign a consent form – did the nurses bring a form with them? Or did you sign some sort of blanket consent to treatment when you went in for the birth? I’m not trying to nit-pick at you – I’m just trying to understand exactly what happened and whether this was a one-off thing or if it’s some sort of wide-spread problem.
Although I’m on my way out the door,,,
Doesn’t anyone feel that Mike et al are deliberately targeting women and talking down to them by using this trope?
@Sarah A.
From a practical standpoint, I don’t see why they would repeatedly walk in with the vaccine ready to go without prior approval for the shot. If nothing else, it’s bad storage/handling procedure and could very well result in having to discard the vaccine.
@GWD #14:
This anarchist has no problem with the acceptance of certain standards as a requirement for membership of a particular group, given that vaccination is mutually beneficial and not in itself socially divisive.
It is difficult to allay fears when the fears are grounded in some reality.
This is exactly backwards. It is difficult to reason someone out of a position he did not reason himself into. Most anti-vax people, at least the ones profiled on this blog, did not arrive at, or maintain, that position through a process of reason.
There are people who fear flying, based on the facts that (1) planes do sometimes crash and (2) plane crashes frequently have fatal results for most or all people aboard. But there are businesses that cater to fearful flyers, and one can be taught to overcome that fear. Anti-vax sentiment does not work that way (at least not anymore): it’s almost entirely based on things that do not happen: autism, mercury poisoning (thimerosal has not been a component of childhood vaccines for over a decade), etc.
The more likely assault theory would be a civil assault action against the parents of an unvaccinated child if it could be shown the child was the vector of an infectious disease from which the plaintiffs or their children suffered harm.
And yes, IAAL.
#34 Sarah A,
I think Dorit was suggesting that anti-vax parents would be concerned that their wishes wouldn’t be honored in a “mass vaccination” setting if the kids were in school at the same time.
That’s specifically what I was responding to, and my reference was to the fact that gosh, yes, stuff does happen, even when Trained Medical Professionals are involved.
I perceive the kind of defensiveness you exhibit as a big part of the problem. Any good propaganda relies on a germ of truth, and the truth is that there are valid reasons why people don’t trust “the system”.
#38 Eric Lund,
See my #40.
It isn’t about the ‘reality’ of vaccines causing autism; it is about the reality of big pharma or big ag or big energy or big medicine and so on having demonstrated that they can’t be trusted.
It is about the reality that there’s all this promotion of narcissistic magical thinking by advertising, and then you want to complain when a different business sells its product the same way.
zebra@28
Pretty tough to exercise your rights when your dead. Absent documentation healthcare providers need to operate under implied consent, legally and ethically. Simply having a family member say that he said no machines isn’t good enough, how can you know it was actually the patient’s will? And it’s not requiring permission, it’s verification. POLSTs are there to ensure that a patient’s wishes are respected when they can no longer make/communicate decisions themselves. Or is your argument that implied consent itself is the problem and we should no longer help people who can’t, for whatever reason, give consent?
There certainly issues with end of life care but they mostly stem from doctors failing to adequately explain and prepare the family and/or improper forms. I legagally can’t honor invalid DNR/POLSTs, documentation I don’t have, advance directives, or family requests (except if it’s the POA, with documentation, after getting an order). No one is going to not honor a valid DNR in hand and if they do that is absolutely assault. Yes there’s issues and they make my job a nasty mess at times but they are not the ones you think they are.
@33
How is that any different from the current system then?
@Ditz-Name sounds right……pretty funny see Pan squirming like a animal when called out. When u have an injured child from a vaccine, then u should talk and understand the other side. its easy to say vaccine for all when u don’t have an injured child. Home school is not option when/if u are single parent or dual income home. Pan is puppet and all for this as you have seen barely stand in line are med folk$ following $
zebra@28
Yup, and both Dorit and Sarah were responding to YOUR idea that it should be done at school.
You can’t act on information you don’t have and once they doctors got the relevant documentation they did respect the patient’s wish. In the case of vaccination tbey would need signed consent before giving it. Since it’s not life saving measures implied consent never comes into play. Per your isual MO you conflating two things in a way that seems reasonable but to anyone with knowledge of how they actually work is patently absurd.
And I preceive you contratrian attitude and admitted trolling to be part of the problem.
#42 capnkrunch,
Verification of what? What makes the note signed by the doctor magical? How do you know I didn’t change my mind since I got it?
As to the vax thing– read my other comments; everyone gets vaccinated at the school, not by individual doctors.
@ Rich Woods
Actually there are two types of anarchism that I can think of that despises all types of social organizations. They are post-left anarchism and egoist anarchism. On the libertarian side their is a movement called the sovereign citizen movement. I should have provided these examples in my first post.
Not to defend the Health Danger, but I feel citizens should have the right to coerce vaccination. That’s not saying it’s a good idea to do so for our current set of diseases, nor am I saying proposed law is that coercive. However, if I make penalties that are steep enough, it might not be forcing people, but it can be as coercive on less wealthy people as almost anything else I could do.
rork,
There was just an article posted this week (I wish i could remember where) that talked about an approach similar o what you are suggesting. A Utah county was concerned with below ideal vaccination rates. They swapped the costs from $0 for an exemption and $25 for a vaccination to the opposite. That small difference restored the county’s herd immunity status to desired levels.
zebra@28
Verification that you discussed you discussed it with your doctor, you decided you don’t want resuscitation yourself, and someone witnessed it. If you change you mind you just have to tear it up. What should we be doing instead, assume everyone who is unconcious doesn’t want treatment and require those who do to have Do Resuscitate orders? Seems backwards.
Free vaccination at schools is indeed a fine idea and as Lawrence said in #17 some schools already do this. But it doesn’t address the problem of antivaxxers and as Dorit pointed out it may make things worse. Currently you either provide documentation that your child os vaccinated or sign an exemption. In your plan you either get vaccinated at school or sign an exemption. I do think that offering free vaccination to all children is a great idea but parents who are going to get an exemption are still going to get an exemption. Free school based vaccinations could be done alongside something removing nonmedical exemptions. Make it easier for parents who want to to vaccinate AND give the parents who don’t want a little push while still leaving them options if they refuse (home/private school).
@Sarah #34
@capnkrunch #44 and zebra #40
Actually, what I was responding to was zebra’s contention that “It is difficult to allay fears when the fears are grounded in some reality,” which seems to imply that zebra is arguing that fears of forced vaccination are reasonable. As evidence she offers an article dealing with end-of-life care, which, as I pointed out, is a very different situation and not relevant to the plausibility of school vaccine mandates morphing into forced vaccination campaigns.
zebra: gosh, yes, stuff does happen, even when Trained Medical Professionals are involved.
Is that seriously your only response? Sh!t happens so literally any fear is reasonable? Just to refresh your memory and make sure we’re talking about the same thing here, the topic of the post was Mike Adams (not that he’s the only one) alleging that a bill seeking to eliminate nonmedical exemptions to school vaccine mandates is equivalent to and/or will lead to forced vaccination (which, in turn, is equivalent to rape and/or felonious assault.) Do you think that that’s a reasonable interpretation of the situation? If so, why? If not, then we have nothing to argue about. I’m certainly not making the argument that the health care system is perfect – I am arguing that its not as bad as Mike Adams (among others) claims.
@zebra – I almost forgot, I also wanted to address this:
You do understand that requiring permission from a doctor to exercise your right to avoid treatment is oxymoronic, right?
Putting aside the fact that that’s not what the word “oxymoron” means, you don’t have to get a doctor’s permission to avoid treatment, you just have to not go to the doctor. Its not like doctors are going door-to-door looking for sick people to harass – you have to go to them, and when you do so you are initiating a therapeutic relationship, not (solely) a business transaction. You can call it paternalistic if you want, but doctors are not sales clerks, and medicine doesn’t (or shouldn’t) work on the principle of “the customer is always right.” Like it or not, the plain fact is that the doctor has knowledge and training that you don’t, which entails on them a responsibility to provide a certain standard of care – unless you actively refuse it. And if you do refuse, they have a responsibility to do the best they can to make sure you understand the likely consequences of that refusal.
I grew up in New Zealand, and received a number of vaccinations at school (I recall injectable polio, TB – test and immunization, oral polio, there may have been more). Since this was 1950s/60s, it may have been that these vaccines were at the time new and there was a government plan to get them out to as many children as possible as fast as possible: I just don’t know. It seemed like a good idea to me.
In the early 1970s, as a research student in Japan, I got my annual Japanese encephalitis vaccination at the university. I don’t even think there were forms, we just lined up if we wanted the shot: it was done with one of those jet injectors that are no longer used.
Derek Lowe, at “In the Pipeline”, has an article today on the elimination of rubella from the Americas, http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2015/04/30/a_vaccination_salute.php. The New York Times and a number of other sites do too, with the NYT reporting including the tragic story of Gene Tierney’s daughter, born severely damaged when Gene caught rubella at an event where she was performing – and that one of the attendees had slipped out of a rubella quarantine to attend the event.
Sarah A@51
As is typical, following zebra’s comments get very difficult, very fast. Originally he said that everyone should be vaccinated at school. Dorit responded this could cause more fear in AV parents. To that zebra replied that some fears are justified. Which makes no sense in context. zebra advanced both the idea that all vaccines should be done at school and that some fears about that idea had a basis in reality. zebra does this predictably. Make one reasonable point and then slip some nonsense in. It gives the illusion that she’s reasonable and the resulting misdirection makes the thread harder to follow.
#49 capnkrunch,
First point: Why do I have to discuss it with ‘my doctor’? Why can’t I use a notarized advanced directive? Or medical POA? It’s my body, right?
Second point: I explained that I conjectured that making vaccination a community thing might be helpful. Some people seem to agree; if you don’t that’s fine.
On both points, you appear to be more comfortable with authoritarian solutions. Which again makes my point that it isn’t unreasonable for people to have concerns about surrendering their autonomy.
Denice #12: I think a lot of those are cases where parents say “no vaccinations” and then the parents learn that Special Snowflake got a Vitamin K shot. IOW, what the parents actually wanted was “no needles” but they expressed it as “no vaccines” and, naturally and reasonably, the medical staff failed to read their minds and went on what the parents actually said rather than what they thought they were saying.
Sarah A, #52
You, like capnkrunch, are making my point.
Yes, I can call it paternalistic, and authoritarian. No means no. It doesn’t matter how much training you have, you don’t own my body.
That you guys can’t hold two nuanced thoughts simultaneously is remarkable, since you give the impression that you are TMP.
@ ebohlman:
Right, I’ve heard about that but also hep B, antibiotics, possibly other vaccines.
As you may know, I read so many of these tales, it’s sometimes hard to keep them straight.
First point: Why do I have to discuss it with ‘my doctor’? Why can’t I use a notarized advanced directive? Or medical POA? It’s my body, right?
As I said a medical POA is fine as long as there’s documentation. As far as advance directives, from your link:
DNR/POLSTs are accepted because they are standardized and simple.
I did agree that was a good idea. It’s also not mutaully exclusive with getting rid of nonmedical exemptions. What both myself and Sarah A disagree with is that “It is difficult to allay fears when the fears are grounded in some reality” or that your link about end of life care has anything to do with the topic at hand. By the way, pointing back to your original reasonable point when people actually have issues with your subsequent nonsense is exactly what I meant by misdirection.
I think POLSTs are great because they leave no room for interpretation the way advance directives or POAs do. In that sense they are actually the best at preserving automony. Vaccine mandates for school are also not authoritarian. Freedom, even health freedom, does not include freedom from consequences.
@57
This is hugely disingenuous. No one is forcing vaccines. Say no and you don’t get one, but you will have to deal with the cknsequences of that choice. As far as saying no to resuscitation, when you’re dead or unconcious you can’t say no, the DNR/POLST actually protects the decision you previously made. Of course, you can also just choose not to call 911 or go to a hospital and no paramedic thugs are going to break down your door and resuscitate you.
I would suspect, and I would like someone who really knows to verify, that a notarized document would be fine.
The problem I see is that the medicos would need to know the document exits, so unless you walk around with it stapled to your chest, some ER doc isn’t going to know, and if you’re at a hospital you have no previous relationship with (with the documentation in their files), they won’t have a way to know.
Deinice Walker @ 35
“Doesn’t anyone feel that Mike et al are deliberately targeting women and talking down to them by using this trope?”
That seems to be one of the main tactics of the leaders of the antivaccine movement.See what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. says at the end of this article.
http://www.mercurynews.com/health/ci_27873768/vaccine-foes-rally-at-california-capitol
To some degree, this approach seems to be modeled on this article: https://leviquackenboss.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/lowly-womens-work/
capnkrunch,
It seems to me that your are the one practicing misdirection here.
I’m trying to understand something that shouldn’t be difficult: I’m not talking about paramedics or EMT, but if you are a physician, why is my directive, notarized, as in a will, somehow ‘less’ than something that has a physician’s signature? How is it ‘less simple’? I don’t want to be hooked up to machines; what is it you don’t understand?
zebra,
A notarized directive does not guarantee the patient’s competence to make such a decision, nor does it rule out pressure from relatives to make such a directive. That’s the point of having a doctor sign a POLST or DNR.
Kevin Kim @ 43
I had never heard of Dr. Richard Pan before SB277,and I am willing to wager most people outside California did not either,but if you look at his background on his 2014 campaign web site,you can see he knows quite a bit about child health and development.
http://www.drrichardpan.com/issues/kids-first
I have been very impressed by Dr. Pan when I have heard him speak on these issues,and I am aware some of the money for his campaign has come from pharmaceutical companies.
People like Kevin Kim don’t seem to get it that drug companies make little,or no money from most vaccines.especially the older ones.
I have read some of the hate filled messages that have been posted on Dr. Pan’s Facebook pages.The usual poorly written Nazi comparisons,with pictures of Hitler and such.There is also a posted video from the ABC News affiliate in San Diego,of a “vaccine injured” child,whose family was awarded money from the vaccine court.I must say,I have rarely seen a more classic case of PANS,or Pediatric Acute-onset Neuropsychiatric Syndrome,which often includes autism.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/labs-at-nimh/research-areas/clinics-and-labs/pdnb/web.shtml
PANDAS and PANS may be more common than people think,and too few pediatricians seem to be aware of it.These diseases have a very strong genetic basis,with long family histories of autoimmune and psychiatric disorders.A few examples are found in this chart.
http://pandasnetwork.org/yourstory/our-collective-voice/familyhistorytable/
These diseases can be triggered by any insult to the immune system,be they wild infection or vaccines.I believe these diseases account for a major portion of the “vaccine induced autism” we see.I think the big problem here,is most doctors have never heard of PANDAS or PANS,and never think of asking parents about family medical histories before kids are vaccinated,or running tests for autoimmune function.These are kids who have a serious inherited autoimmune disorder.and might benefit from an altered vaccine schedule,maybe modeled after the one suggested for lupus.
In reference to Beth’s comments about her newborn and the Hep B vaccine. I worked as a pediatric RN with frequent floating to the newborn nursery between 1999 – 2007, so my experience might be in that 16 year window. Vitamin K was given immediately after delivery, before the baby was even brought to the newborn nursery. And the first of the HepB series was typically given on the morning of discharge, after making sure that informed parental consent was documented. Different hospitals may likely have had different procedures, but our practice was definitely different from her experience.
As a woman, who is more likely to be raped at some point in my life than is, say, the pond scum pretending to be human and calling itself Mike Adams, I find his vaccine analogy vile and appalling. Which is pretty much how I feel about most of his statements, so at least he is consistent.
zebra@63
I am a paramedic. I don’t think you’ve ever seen a POLST or a living will. POLSTs are very simple and standardized. I know where to look to make sure it’s valid and if it is I know that it means no CPR, no intubation. Living wills can be pages long and are not standardized. Still, as your own reference demonstrates, doctors will honor them. It just takes time and training to figure them out and because of that they are not nearly as ironclad as POLSTs are.
#64 ah yes, Krebiozen
Now I understand. Doctors are infallible judges of someone’s competence. But, we do not require doctors to declare that I “am of sound mind and body” when I make a will involving tens of millions of dollars (yes, in my dreams).
Kerbiozen, even by your standards, this is a pathetically weak input.
#67 capnkrunch,
So, if I have a notarized advanced directive in my wallet (next to my insurance card) that says I don’t want CPR or intubation, you have to go through a long legal process to validate it, but if it is signed by a ‘doctor’ you don’t.
I don’t know what state your are in, but do you check if the ‘doctor’ is a naturopath?
Man, I hope I never need your services. And that’s because I would rather live, if I can.
As usual zebra resorts to personal attacks as soon as his ignorance and lack of reasoning skills are exposed.
@Denice: in my years as a RN – newborn nursery, postpartum, labor and deliver, and as a midwife: I never saw a baby get the Hep b shot without a signed consent from the parent(s) on the chart. Vitamin K, yes, that was given routinely unless the parents specifically had documented no Vitamin K. But I never ever, in my 20 years, saw a vaccine without a consent, nor did I ever hear of it happening. Even the women with + Hep B screens had to sign a consent for the baby to get the vaccine.
(And yes, I am aware this is anectdote that it was never given without consent. But I also worked in hospitals in 3 states, before and after the vaccine).
Sarah: Nurses may have come in each shift to ask about consent for the vaccine (though that’s pretty poor nursing care – the first nurse should have noted no Hep B to be given and it should have been passed on at every report). They never should have walked in to give the injection without a signed consent.
zebra@63
If you have an notarized advanced directive I legally cannot honor it. There’s no verification to go through, I simply cannot terminate resuscitation without a physician order. If it was very simple I would do CPR (as I am legally required to) and contact medical control to see if I could honor it before intubating. Almost every time though they will tell us to work you. As a side note keeping that in your pocket is a poor choice. No one is going to rifle through your pockets before starting care, especially in a full arrest.
Of course. They can’t legally sign one here.
And you could certainly refuse them. Though if you didn’t I can assure you that you would get the same standard of care as all my patients despite my personal distaste for you.
That should be “terminate or withhold resuscitation.”
#69
And, as usual, krebiozen is unable to provide a rational response.
Saying “you’re wrong’ is not a personal attack, despite what creationists and other authoritarians like yourself think.
zebra@76
As disingenuous as ever I see. Simply saying “you’re wrong” is not a personal attack. This however, is:
As is this:
#74
Yes, capnkrunch, I understand that you don’t get to make decisions on your own. But that’s the point here. We don’t get from what is to what ought, at least to all the moral philosophers for quite a while now. Why don’t you try thinking for yourself, if you want to argue here on the wonderful internet? Stop complaining that “zebra asks hard questions”, and try answering some on your own volition.
@Denice #12: re vaccinations of babies. I think the claim is a load of crap. You have to document signed formed consent, and the mother is the only one allowed to sign anywhere I’ve every worked for newborns. Dad is actually not the Dad until the birth certificate is filed. The nursery only stocks the Hep B because as we all know, the MMR is not given to newborns for the very good reason it won’t take.
You can file for criminal or civil charges in such a case (giving medical treatment without consent would be considered battery), and since I’ve never heard of it happening, it is highly unlikely as a scenario.
@zebra: You are comparing apples to oranges. In the case of EOL care, the ADULT patient is unable to speak for himself. Therefore the family must do it. In the article you cite, the wife (the legal POA) panicked and did the opposite of what the patient stated he wanted. Unfortunately, advanced directives have little legal authority in an emergency situation, which is why getting the POLST form is so important. It tells the EMTs what to do.
This has no relationshiop to vaccination, which is NOT an emergency and where PARENTS have total control over what happens.
@Sarah #34: It depends on whether or not treatments are done in Mom’s room or not. So a nurse might have brought it along. But I find that scenario very unlikely, because Hep B must be refrigerated.
I do think the nurse could have come around to try and talk to the parents on more than one occasion, to comply with hospital policies or state rules demanding high vaccination rates. But the nurse would only be overzealous in trying to convince the parent to give informed consent. That consent must be documented, so I really question whether Beth misinterpreted what the nursing staff was really trying to do.
@Kevin Kim: Vaccine injured? If the child is really injured by a vaccine, no further vaccinations are required and your kid can go to school. If you mean the crazy autism claim, the injury does not exist and therefore your kid must be vaccinated to go to school. Sorry about your luck.
@ Panacea ( and all who responded):
Thanks. I thought that these stories seemed unlikely or mis-remembered to represent a current belief about vaccines.
The anti-vax sites are rife with similar stories.
So, if I have a notarized advanced directive in my wallet (next to my insurance card) that says I don’t want CPR
This is going off on a bit of a tangent, but I have to say, as a Red Cross volunteer trained in CPR and 1st Aid, I’m not going to stop and check someone’s wallet before I start CPR.
I’m not going to stop and check someone’s wallet before I start CPR.
———————————————-
Moriarty:
For the benefit of people without television… He’s fainted.
Grytpype-Thynne:
Don’t waste time. Open his jacket…
Moriarty:
Right!
Grytpype-Thynne:
…And take the weight of his wallet off his chest.
@zebra # 57
The one having trouble with nuanced concepts is you. Nothing I or anyone else on this thread has said could even remotely be interpreted as denying that a competent adult has the right to refuse medical treatment. You keep trying to conflate the subject at hand (whether school vaccine mandates = forced vaccination = rape/felonious assault) with the far more complex ethical issues surrounding end-of-life care – a situation in which doctors are morally and legally obligated to err on the side of life if there’s the slightest doubt about the patient’s wishes because, to put it crassly, you can always die later, but once you’re dead there’s no re-do. The fact that doctors are reluctant to let their patients die unless they’re really, really sure that’s what they would have wanted is not evidence that the medical establishment doesn’t respect patient autonomy.
Panacea @79:
@Kevin Kim: … Sorry about your luck.
Do you refer to Kevin’s bad experience with the education system and the way it has failed him?
Panacea @78
Sixteen years ago, Beth was asleep at the time: https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2015/04/30/the-annals-of-im-not-antivaccine-part-16-felonious-assault-and-vaccine-violence/#comment-396873
The misinterpretation is by admission second hand.
That’s ludicrous. And false. And ignorant.
All effective propaganda relies on more than a germ of truthiness. But that’s not the same thing.
Nice appeal to emotion this thread. You really need a smokescreen that big? Jeez the thought of you lot, like a coven of aardvarks, all polishing the helmet over this latest creation…………I see shares in Kleenex going up.
Until the comparative studies between non vaccinated and vaccinated demonstrate some value in vaccination – there is no evidence that vaccination has a positive contribution to make to health care. Disallowing dissent by effectively banning children from school unless they ‘believe’ is a bit archaic. In fact creating a generation of home schooled kids might actually turn the economy around so keep up the good work.
The more kids you can help not have to swear allegiance to the flag every goddam day is a plus for free thinking.
I know you have all colluded in that marvelous weasel tool called the ‘medical peer review’ but the scientologists also have a book with ‘how it is’ too.
Paying for studies and then claiming the ‘tablets of stone’, as facts, isn’t good enough. If the public need to demonstrate for protection then so be it.
You are the deluded ones that believe in the scriptures of the CDC. Why on earth would any sane person think that directives by that bunch of crooks was in the best interest of anyone’s health? Who has the patent on Ebola – the good old CDC.
What was it called – swine flu? LOL. What was that tune by the Monkeys? Swine flu believer……………
“As to the vax thing– read my other comments; everyone gets vaccinated at the school, not by individual doctors.” zebra
I suppose that makes sense, if you are going to coerce kids somewhere, might as well do it where you are brainwashing them – it’s a no brainer really.
Bit like they do in those countries run by military Juntas. In fact let’s adopt those North Korean ways of doing things and have done with it.
I see the Hope Osteopathic Clinic has misplaced its head monkey again.
Dude, even Jake Freakin’ Crosby admits vaccines work to prevent disease.
Don’t tell me even Jake is more honest than you. You’re an embarrassment to the name.
Proper Johnny
The one using the ‘nym first.
Philip Hills also asserts that there is no evidence that influenza is contagious (“playground lurgy”). I’m too tired to dig up where I quoted from A.T. Still a little while ago, but anything that Phildo manages to emit relating to basic medicine since 1910 ultimately devolves to this.
Exhibit 1:
Playground lurgy? That must have been that germ theory denier Johnny Labile. Same as it ever was. Nothing ever changes with Mr. Hills.
#83 Sarah A,
I’m not conflating different things, and you are indeed having a problem with nuance if you think so. I’ve very simply and clearly pointed out that people’s mistrust– about vaccines, however misplaced it is– does not exist in a vacuum.
So, my original reference was specifically in response to Orac’s statement about refusing treatment, because humans don’t carefully compartmentalize their fears– “you can’t always trust the system on x, but you can always trust it on y”.
You can keep saying “well, I know medicine isn’t perfect, but gosh, look how wacky those people are” if it makes you feel better, but the wacky people are acting out their wackiness within the context/ status quo that you are defending.
Having communal vaccination is something that changes the context, and so perhaps changes behavior. Having a more communal health-care system in general changes the context. Not having creepy pharma advertising on TV changes the context. Having standardized advanced directives one can download and have notarized changes the context.
Perhaps you can’t see the connections, because you are inside the system, but to me the human behavior looks pretty much the same on the conventional side and on the woo side. Beam/mote, as I said.
zebra,
As usual? I have repeatedly exposed your ignorance and poor reasoning skills here. Remember the gambler’s fallacy, your claims that TCM isn’t taught to medical students, your assertion that serious poisons could not be traditional medicines, your argument that prescribing ginger tea would stop the prescription of antibiotics for viral infections, your jaw-droppingly ignorant arguments about normal distributions and probability? I could go on. It seems you are still butthurt at having embarrassed yourself here so many times; that’s your problem, not mine.
Here you seem to be arguing that the fact that medical professionals will do their best to keep a patient alive, unless they have good reason to believe that the patient doesn’t want this, has resulted in a lack of trust that doctors will not administer vaccines without consent. That is a ridiculous claim.
For a medical professional to stop live-saving interventions they need to know several things:
1. That the patient was competent to make an informed decision about their EOL care, for example that they did not make this decision while suffering from a temporary bout of depression. A lawyer notarizing a document is not qualified to make such an assessment, any more than a doctor is qualified to make decisions about the law.
2. That the patient made an informed decision about their EOL care i.e. that they understood the implications of signing a POLST or DNR. This isn’t an academic point, as one of the comments on the article you linked to makes clear:
Is a lawyer notarizing a document going to explain the implications? Whenever I have had a document notarized the lawyer hasn’t taken the slightest interest in what the document contained, just in verifying my identity and getting his fee.
3. That the patient has not been coerced or conned into signing a POLST or DNR. There have been cases where this has happened, particularly cases where elderly abuse is occurring. For all a doctor knows, the notarized document found in the patient’s wallet (in the unlikely event that this should happen before treatment is started) might have been planted by a relative fed up with caring for their sick, elderly patient.
Even raising this issue in the context of vaccination demonstrates your inability to make a coherent argument.
As capnkrunch pointed out, it is accusing me of having “a pathetically weak input” to the comments here, and defaming capnkrunch’s professional abilities* that are personal attacks.
Incidentally, that’s the first time I have ever been accused of being authoritarian. Someone here is full of sh!t, to the brim, and I’m pretty sure it isn’t me.
* Perhaps you should make up your mind if capnkruch is too good at keeping people alive, or not good enough.
Nope. You are very much conflating things if you think that source about EOL care has anything to do with the topic at hand. Even if EOL care did, you misrepresented the source you provided because they did not have the paperwork and were not informed about his wishes.
And as I said at least twice already, in that reference they didn’t have the paperwork and the wife didn’t inform them about it. Once they did the man’s wishes were honored. Your logic only makes sense of you think that the default mode of healthcare providers should be do not resuscitate which is ridiculous.
No one ever said these were bad ideas. People have a problen with you saying that AV fears are justified and using something unrelated as proof. You’ve also failed to respond to two critiques of your original idea. Dorit Reiss said that having commuinty vaccinations at school could look much scarier to AV parents to which you replied that the fear would be justified. I said there might be HIPPA issues to which you replied they just need to go the office to fill out a form at some point; which is suspiciously similar to tbe current system. And I’m the one who has trouble answering tough questions.
Perhaps she can’t see the connections because they aren’t there. You don’t get to make the absurd claims that you do, fail to make substantive replies to criticisms of them and then play the unbiased third party.
like a coven of aardvarks
I rejoice in pointing out that the proper term for a group of aardvarks is in fact an ‘armoury’.
Such are the benefits of a good education.
#96
I know that pointing out that you are playing strawman probably will not help, but there it is.
” humans don’t carefully compartmentalize their fears” does not translate to “AV fears are justified”.
If you think my reasoning about human behavior is wrong, then explain why. And note that I suggested reading the comments on the NYT article as well as the article.
As for the school vaccinations, same thing. I don’t know why people would be afraid of vaccinations taking place in a clinic-type setting if they don’t bring their kids to it. And I don’t see how going to the office to sign a document is the same as mailing or faxing a form; again, that’s my take on human psychology, with which you are free to disagree. I can’t “answer” if you don’t ask a question.
@ ZEBRA You can keep saying “well, I know medicine isn’t perfect, but gosh, look how wacky those people are” if it makes you feel better, but the wacky people are acting out their wackiness within the context/ status quo that you are defending.
Excellent point
Exactly what are they defending?
Vaccines are proven safe but we need protection from lawsuits because they are safe. go shoot yourself
Thimerosal was put into vaccines because it is safe and it has been removed (except in the flu shot) because it is potentially dangerous, but it is also safe. get the noose
We are 100% sure Vaccines are not linked to Autism.
We are not 100% sure what causes autism.
One size fits all medicine.
We all know that makes no sense, some people are caffeine sensitive and flip out when they have it. But Vaccines are safe for everyone. Some children are genetically susceptible to injury.
@johnny
You are the deluded ones that believe in the scriptures of the CDC. Why on earth would any sane person think that directives by that bunch of crooks was in the best interest of anyone’s health? Who has the patent on Ebola – the good old CDC.
Great point
Its very clear we are debating with a bunch of trained medical professionals,staff, Nurses doctors etc. Your entire belief system is founded on a Pharmaceutical Religion that you were indoctrinated in from school. That is really sad.
So as soon as cracks in the foundation appear and vaccines are criticized they fear monger hospital administrators and started forcing vaccines. like a time out for your child. They are losing control of the information. They MUST keep the soldiers on the front lines compliant perpetuating the scheme. Thats not good enough now every child must be vaccinated to go to school. Whats next getting on an airplane for all adults?
Communist China here we come!
In the example you gave, the patient’s wishes were honored.
That’s not true. Even people who distrust medicine get their broken bones set by doctors.
Citation?
The context/status quo being defended is one in which people have the right to refuse medical intervention and have that refusal respected — as demonstrated by the example in your reference — which no one is questioning or challenging.
I’m not 100% sure why you think child sacrifice is socially acceptable. I am 100% sure it’s not linked to my wife’s excellent cooking.
Please go lift a recent printed copy of the Physician’s Desk Reference and then tell me about how medicine is so one-size-fits-all.
Not true. They are contraindicated for some.
Please list the problematic genes here.
zebra@98
Yes but “…when the fears are grounded in some reality,” does.
I did read the comments. There were some unfortunate circumstances but all of them stemmed from similar issues. I saw one that might have been a situation where it was full on ignored but even that was rssolved. Regardless, this is not what we are taking issue with. It is that you said that AV fears have basis in reality.
It’s the fact that it is a government funded program that takes place at school. It looks much closer to the force mass vaccinations that AVers are so scared of.
I do disagree. Regardless your idea is all about community. If it is only the people who would be getting vaccines who would go to get the vaccines and AVers can come in whenever to fill out a form you’ve targeted the demographic that was already going to vaccinate.
That’s certainly a simplistic view. It is in fact possible to pose concerns as statements and answer them appropriately.
#100 ann,
At #31, I suggest reading the comments thread on the NYT article– should have said that in my original comment.
Unless you think all those people are secret anti-vax conspirators, it indicates that some have had bad experiences and some see the doctor’s writing as self-serving. So, as I said, there is mistrust of “the system” that is based on experience.
And I still don’t see how, if I have to get a doctor’s permission to refuse treatment by a doctor, as in Krebiozen’s model, that counts as autonomy.
#102
Ah, quoting out of context, how clever.
“I refer you to the NYT article I referenced and also Beth at #18.
It is difficult to allay fears when the fears are grounded in some reality. That’s why I recommend people like Orac deal with beams before taking on the motes.”
Clearly referencing the anecdotes, not saying vax fears are grounded in reality. But you already knew that. This is your idea of a serious debate?
zebra@104
You are a lair. Not that we didn’t know that already but this example is a pretty clear and nicely contained within one thread and only a handful of posts.
Let’s see what Dorit Reiss said in #16:
In your response to Dorit Reiss comment about concerns over forced vaccination you said “It is difficult to allay fears when the fears are grounded in some reality.” Now you are saying:
Responding to your particular brand of trolling is more tiring than entertaining. I’m not going to respond anymore and you are more than welcome to claim I ran away from your “hard questions.” I wonder if others will agree.
zebra
As capnkruch noted, you are being dishonest, yet again.
You don’t have to get a doctor’s permission to refuse treatment by a doctor, as you know very well. Assuming you are a competent adult you can simply refuse to sign a consent form and that will be the end of it. Even if you are unconscious and unable to consent, if you have made your wishes clear through whatever counts as legal documentation in that jurisdiction, doctors are legally obliged to respect it.
As usual you have argued yourself into an untenable position and are simply too pig-headed to admit it.
Krebiozen:
“Even if you are unconscious and unable to consent, if you have made your wishes clear through whatever counts as legal documentation in that jurisdiction, doctors are legally obliged to respect it.”
“For a medical professional to stop live-saving interventions they need to know several things:
1. That the patient was competent to make an informed decision about their EOL care, for example that they did not make this decision while suffering from a temporary bout of depression. A lawyer notarizing a document is not qualified to make such an assessment, any more than a doctor is qualified to make decisions about the law.”
So, if “what counts as a legal document” can only be signed by a doctor, I need a doctor’s permission to refuse treatment if I am unconscious.
Exactly what I said.
But feel free to write a long convoluted explanation about what you really meant.
THEO, you are so full of you-know-what your eyes are brown.
I’ll repeat the relevant phrase: potentially dangerous. Thimerosal was suspected of causing harm and removed as a precaution. Then, when the investigations were done, it was determined that it wasn’t harmful. But by then the manufacturers had changed their processes. Organisations that supported the removal now say that had they known then what they know now, they would never have pressed for its removal.
The fact that we aren’t certain precisely what causes autism doesn’t mean that we can’t exclude things. The supposed link between vaccines and autism has been investigated in great depth. If a meta-analysis of all the studies looking at this question would occur, it would look at literally millions of people. No link was found in the properly designed studies.
So yes, we can say that vaccines do not cause autism.
@zebra
Perhaps I’m being naive, but I’m always perplexed when people try to retcon their arguments on the internet. You do know your original words are there for everyone to see, right? Several other commenters have already pointed out
zebra,
That’s not at all what you said. The doctor’s signature is confirmation that the patient was competent, informed and acting out of his/her free will when signing the POLST, DNR or whatever. It doesn’t grant the patient permission, any more than a lawyer witnessing a will gives a person permission to leave their possessions to whoever they want.
A doctor cannot refuse to sign a valid POLST unless s/he has good reason to doubt that the patient is competent, informed and has not been coerced, which any reasonable person would surely agree is a good thing.
I suppose discovering that you don’t understand the meaning of yet another simple English word, in this case “permission”, shouldn’t surprise me. I’ll add it, and ‘oxymoron’ to the list.
Wow, Phildo’s so desperate for attention that he scraped up that comic disaster?
Oops, must have accidentally hit submit. As I was saying, several commenters have already pointed out the inconsistencies in your attempts to re-write history, so I’ll confine myself to observing that back at comment #51 I explicitly stated that my arguments were based on the interpretation of your statement “It is difficult to allay fears when the fears are grounded in some reality” as an argument that Mike Adams’ fear-mongering about “forced vaccination” was reasonable in light of the current state of the medical system in the US, as exemplified in the article you linked to. I specifically asked if that was indeed your view; if it wasn’t, you could have clarified back then rather than waiting until you’d lost the argument to try and pretend you never said it.
Having communal vaccination is something that changes the context, and so perhaps changes behavior. Having a more communal health-care system in general changes the context. Not having creepy pharma advertising on TV changes the context. Having standardized advanced directives one can download and have notarized changes the context.
I’d love it if the US had universal health care and outlawed advertising prescription medications. But its ridiculous to imply that antivax sentiment arises from these things; the UK has nationalized health care and doesn’t allow pharmaceutical companies to advertise, but it was the UK antivax organization JABS that funded Wakefield and launched the antivax movement into the public consciousness.
Perhaps you can’t see the connections, because you are inside the system, but to me the human behavior looks pretty much the same on the conventional side and on the woo side. Beam/mote, as I said.
Really? So alt-med practitioners have evidence-based standards treatments have to meet before they’re used on patients? Treatments that don’t work or have unacceptable side effects are abandoned? They have organizations that actively work to identify failures in the system and come up with solutions? Alt-med clinics are subjected to surprise inspections to ensure they are conforming to best practices? They have governing bodies that strip practitioners of their right to practice if they fail to provide a commonly accepted standard of care? (Hint: these are rhetorical questions; the answer is no.)
I never understood any of this automatic distrust of the CDC. No one there gets any compensation from vaccine-producers. They aren’t elected officials so they have no contributors to kowtow to, and they don’t have to wheedle grant money out of big corporations so they aren’t beholden to them. Yet somehow, we’re supposed to believe that CDC is kissing the ass of (scary music) Big Pharma !!!1! and that CDC, NIH and FDA are all secretly in the pocket of Teh Big Pharms! 1!! Um, except nobody has ever shown any such collusion or corruption exists. The biggest thing anyone has come up with is bizarre “Six Degrees of Seperation” -like nonsense. Hey I know, let’s see how many steps it is between Dr. Tom Frieden and Kevin Bacon.
Krebiozen,
“The doctor’s signature is confirmation that the patient was competent, informed and acting out of his/her free will when signing the POLST, DNR or whatever. It doesn’t grant the patient permission, any more than a lawyer witnessing a will gives a person permission to leave their possessions to whoever they want. ”
Merriam Webster:
permission: “the right or ability to do something that is given by someone who has the power to decide if it will be allowed or permitted”
Ummm… if doctors are the only ones with the power to decide that I can have a DNR, I only have the ability if the doctor so decides.
Why is it relevant what criteria she uses to do so?
Talk about stubborn refusal to admit the obvious.
Not only that, but besides the higher level executives and researchers at the CDC, the actual grunt work is done by the over 14,000 regular old employees, who are responsible for studies directly or have oversight responsibilities.
So, there is enough money being thrown around to bribe over 14,000 people (and how much would be enough? $100,000 per person – which works out to $1.4 Billion dollars just for the CDC) – how exactly do you hide that kind of money?
Then you multiple that by the tens of thousands of other medical professionals – which means that “Big Pharma” is spending more money in “supposed bribes” than they even make in overall revenue from all the vaccines sold.
Yet another reason why these conspiracy theories don’t make any sense at all…..
@ Justthestats I have no idea which genes or what circumstances permit injury from vaccines but it happens all around the world. In case you missed this story regarding Gardasil. MORE EVIDENCE of vaccines doing damage. This happened in Denmark and was publicized on national television. Stark contrast to the censorship going on in this country.
http://healthimpactnews.com/2015/tv2-denmark-documentary-on-hpv-vaccine-shows-lives-of-young-women-ruined/
But Vaccines are safe for everyone.
Not true. They are contraindicated for some.
A lot more than we know actually. not just immunocompromised.
There should be screening to find out.
The science is not settled on Autism/vaccines no matter how hard they try., Especially when this is circulating around.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/220807175/86-Research-Papers-Supporting-the-Vaccine-Autism-Link
#112 Sarah A,
I don’t really know what you are saying about #51– did I respond?
Anyway, you are avoiding or intentionally misunderstanding my point, which I’ve now repeated and can’t make any clearer– I am talking about the psychology of the public, not whether alt med is sufficiently regulated.
I’m pointing out some areas where there seems to be overlap, by which I mean there are similar motivational factors. Having faith in doctors and having faith in faith healers is still having faith. Looking for a pill to lose weight isn’t a different type of laziness if the pill comes from pharma or Dr Oz’s herbs.
I can go on but I doubt you are interested in actually discussing this when you have your woo is woo argument to repeat, over and over.
This is for Johnny.. By the way your a badass writer I wish I had that skill. LMFAO
The pharmaceutical industry portrays itself as an industry fighting to prevent and eliminate diseases but, behind the pretext of this noble cause, it is extorting billions of dollars in subsidies from dozens of governments and is demanding blind obedience from hundreds of millions of patients. The drug industry is trying to establish a global monopoly as the sole “purveyor of health.”
In fact, the pharmaceutical drug industry is not a health industry at all, it is an investment business. While pretending to deliver health to the world, its entire existence is based on promoting diseases as multi-billion dollar markets for patented drugs.
Anyone can easily see that the entire business model of the pharmaceutical industry is based on fraud and deception.
The elimination of diseases, the very goal the drug industry pretends to serve, is actually being vigorously fought against by this industry, for an obvious reason: the disappearance of diseases would destroy the global drug market based upon which they are based and ultimately the drug industry itself.
To continue this “largest fraud in the history of mankind” against growing resistance, the drug industry is using major portions of its billions in profits to finance political stakeholders, to bribe health professionals and to buy the media.
In 1997 Dr. Rath described the drug industry as the “biggest obstacle to world health” and since then, numerous books have been published describing the devastating impact that this organized fraud has on people and societies around the world. selection of those books:
TRUTH
THEO@118
I was going to say something about plagiarism again but given that your post is directed at johnny and I understand you want to emulate his “skill” I suppose that’s meaningless. In the future please try to use lowercase for crazy johnny (or just call him by his real name, Phillip Hills) because I’d hate for anyone to mistake that you are referring to sane Johnny.
THEO, you can’t even get my name right.
As for your two cites, the first one is from “Health Impact News”, a name that just screams “quackery ahead”. Your second one is a link to a scribd page about documents that supposedly support the vaccine autism link. I’ve seen that list, and I’ve seen it refuted.
As for your comment in #118, Matthias Rath is an AIDS denialist and quack who managed to bend the ear of Thabo Mbeki, South African president from 1999 to 2008 when he was forced out of office.
For all of his intelligence, Mbeki was an arrogant, supercilious and obnoxious man who ignored evidence that contradicted his idees fixee, and resorted to ad hominem attacks on anyone who disagreed, challenged or criticised him.
Try again.
I don’t have time to read all of the comments right now but to respond @Denice Walter – when my son was born we had to fill out forms to have him vaccinated. Meaning, they came in with all of the information for the vaccine recommended (Hep B) fact sheet, etc. and then we had to read the consent form and sign it before he was vaccinated. I would be very doubtful that an infant was vaccinated without that signed consent form. They may have been confusing the Vit K shot, which I don’t believe (although I was a bit fuzzy right after he was born mostly due to blood loss) they give them pretty immediately after birth. The Hep B vaccine occurred probably a couple of hours after he was born when the rounding pediatrician came in to look him over and also to ask whether or not we wanted to have him circumcised as well as conducting an examination. They also did the heel stick at that time as well (to fill out the screening card for genetic testing), so all of the unpleasantness could all be done in one go. They messed up his first heel stick or dropped the blood or something and had to do it again (with profuse apologies). He got his revenge though, peed all over the nurse.
@zebra #117
If you can’t understand my comment #51 I really don’t know how to make it any clearer to you. And no, you didn’t respond – that was my whole point. I’m beginning to think capnkrunch is right and this is a deliberate strategy on your part: maintain two separate and unrelated lines of argument so that whenever you’re at a loss to respond to a criticism of one argument you can ignore it and focus on the other.
And once again you’re trying to change your stance and pretend that’s what you were saying all along. Of course the motivations of the patients who seek out SBM or alt-med are the same – they want to get well! But your admonition for SBM to take the beam out of its own eye before looking for motes in alt-med’s only makes sense if your statement that “to me the human behavior looks pretty much the same on the conventional side and on the woo side” was referring to the behavior of the practitioners of the respective systems, which, as I pointed out, is certainly not the same. The difference between SBM and woo is that real doctors don’t ask for “faith” – they don’t need to, because they have evidence.
This is for Johnny.. By the way your a badass writer I wish I had that skill. LMFAO
Never mind, THEO, your copy-paste plagiarism skills are second to none.
As for your comment in #118, Matthias Rath is an AIDS denialist and quack
So whom better to plagiarise?
Teho, when a list of 86 papers opens with an abstract from a conference poster session where the author (Verstaeten)presented preliminary results from an incomplete two phase study, but does not also include Verstaeten’s peer-reviewed juornal publication presenting the full results following the completion the study;ssecond phase where the initial appearance of an association between thimerosal and neurologic development disorders was found to represent a false positive, there’s really no reason to read further–is there? Whoever compiled the list obviously has no interest in honestly assessing the available evidence.
Excellent point
By the way your a badass writer I wish I had that skill.
Since THEO is here at the moment, perhaps he can spare a moment from the sycophancy to explain what he meant by “Spenglerians” and “Bushmen” abstaining from vaccination.
#122 Sarah A
You are beginning to sound a little paranoid wacky yourself here– what “only makes sense” to you is not necessarily what “only makes sense” to me, and not every comment is part of some devious strategy. I’m not bound by your misinterpretations- or do you think you too are infallible?
Do you disagree that the mainstream establishment is clearly responsible for how people think about health care?
Like the expectation that they can take a pill to effortlessly solve their problem? That there’s this authority figure with special wisdom who can heal them and save their lives if they get sick?
Sounds like faith to me. The vast majority of people have zero knowledge of, or ability to evaluate, or even the inclination, to look at the “evidence”. And traditionally, that suits the establishment just fine.
zebra,
They don’t have the power to decide whether or not you can have a DNR, they sign the form to say that you were competent, informed and were not coerced at the time you signed the form. It is your decision and yours alone. If you are really unable to see the difference I can’t help you, but I suspect you are just desperately trying to dig your way out of the hole you are in. Again.
For example, the California POLST form (PDF) has boxes to tick to indicate whether it was discussed with the patient and that the patient has capacity, or it was discussed with a legally recognized decisionmaker if the patient lacks capacity.
The physician signs this statement:
The California POLST website states that:
There doesn’t seem to be a problem here, certainly not one that is responsible for eroding public trust in vaccines, as you seem to be suggesting. Or do you have evidence that doctors are arbitrarily refusing to sign DNRs and POLSTs?
You cannot really believe it is OK for people to make life-ending decisions when they lack the capacity to understand what they are deciding, are misinformed or have been coerced. Do you seriously think that a lawyer is capable of explaining the implications of a DNR or a POLST, and assessing a person’s competence? Who else but a physician is qualified to do this?
Project much?
Krebiozen:
“They don’t have the power to decide whether or not you can have a DNR, ”
Seriously, are you insane? If they don’t sign, you can’t have the DNR. How is that not the power to decide whether or not you can have the DNR?
@Julian sorry you dont like independent reporting from that website but its here to stay. Focus on the the story not the source. There is a video embedded you can view. I am sure you can find another outlet that you trust that has the story about Vaccine injured girls in Denmark. I am sorry this truth is hard to take. but its what we are SCREAMING about in the Antivax community and no-one is listening. Thus the need for independent news coverage to get the message out. GRASSROOTS
herr doktor bimler
Since THEO is here at the moment, perhaps he can spare a moment from the (sycophancy<——— new word for me thanks) to explain what he meant by “Spenglerians” and “Bushmen” abstaining from vaccination.
That was cited by Age of Autism. I have no idea what that meant. Sorry. it sounded funny didn't it? hehe
Matthias Rath is an AIDS denialist and quack. That piece about pharma is completely accurate no matter who wrote it. Corroborated by many other sources. documentaries etc. I was impressed how it well it was written and succinct.
@JGC thats a valid point but not enough to dismiss all 86 papers.
How about this hot off the presses dated today. And you want us to trust the studies and establishment? No effing way Face palm SMH.
The peer review process – long considered the gold standard of quality scientific research – is a “sacred cow” that should be slaughtered, the former editor of one of the country’s leading medical journals has said. WOW!
Richard Smith, who edited the British Medical Journal for more than a decade, said there was no evidence that peer review was a good method of detecting errors and claimed that “most of what is published in journals is just plain wrong or nonsense”.
The editor of the second of the country’s two leading medical journals, Dr Richard Horton of The Lancet, wrote in an editorial earlier this month that “much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue”, blaming, among other things, studies with small sample sizes, researchers’ conflicts of interest and “an obsession” among scientists for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance”. Are you serious? Add to it Marcia Angell's comments from JAMA and you have a check-mate scenario developing.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientific-peer-reviews-are-a-sacred-cow-ready-to-be-slaughtered-says-former-editor-of-bmj-10196077.html
@THEO
Everyone who works with scientific research for a living knows that prepublication peer review is the first step towards scientific acceptance, not the end-all-be-all stamp of scientific acceptance. What does it say about your pet theories that they can’t even make the low bar of passing peer review?
Newsflash:
The fact that there’s a handful of strangers on the internet complaining about something else entirely in entirely other terms doesn’t actually demonstrate the truth of that proposition .
What else do you got?
You don’t have to get a doctor’s permission to refuse treatment by a doctor.
Oh, so you’re admittedly an intellectually sloppy idiot.
That was cited by Age of Autism. I have no idea what that meant. Sorry. it sounded funny didn’t it? hehe
This modus operandi explains
muchall of THEO’s production.May have a comment stuck in moderation…can’t think why
An interesting rephrasing of
Yes, a community activity! Like Tax Day! Or draft physicals!
I’m still waiting to hear how having to go to school to opt out of going to school is any different from this DNR/autonomy dog-and-pony distraction (much less the status quo).
The underlying dynamic doesn’t seem that mysterious though: you people are all stupid for talking about the subject of the post at all, because Z. has “a better solution.”
@herr doktor #84: You could interpret that statment many ways . . . none complimentary to Mr. Kim.
@ johnny #87: No demonstrated benefit? How do you explain away the disappearance of smallpox, polio, native cases of measles (all current outbreaks were brought from overseas), and now mumps?
And I think you have been told that the study you demand is highly unethical and would never get IRB approval: see the Tuskegee Experiment for the reasons why.
@zebra #94: Please get out a legal dictionary and look up the differences between an advanced directive and a POLST form. You are indeed conflating that issue with informed consent for vaccines. Very nicely phrased ad hominem attack, by the way.
@zebra #98: no, you brought in the strawman when you brought up the whole EOL care BS.
@Theo #116: No moving the goal posts. The weak evidence that Gardasil caused harm in some patients has nothing to do with claims about vaccines causing autism. And the articles you link to have been extensively debunked here by Orac and others.
@Kiiri 121: I can definitely see uninformed parents conflating Hep B with Vit K. Vit K has to be administered within the first hour of life, is part of standing newborn care orders EVERYWHERE, and is only held if the parents specifically demand it in their birth plan . . . but we will gently try to talk them out of it (and often succeed). Vit K is needed to activate clotting factors in the blood to prevent hemorrhagic disease of the newborn (a newborn has only a blood volume of about 300 ml, or a 12 oz can of soda for those of us stuck in the Imperial System. So bleeding is bad in neonates, as you can imagine.
Hep B (first dose) should be given as soon as possible but can wait for the parents to be reasonable informed before signing consent. It’s typically given in the first 24 hours to prevent liver failure if the mom is infected and passes it to the baby during the birth (it’s blood and body fluid borne).
@zebra #126: pot, meet kettle.
@zebra #126
Ah, the Humpty Dumpty defense, reliable fallback of the cornered interlocutor. But if you’re going to take the position that no one can know what you mean by a word (or statement) until you tell them, then you can’t very well ignore them when they specifically ask you to clarify your position and then call them “paranoid wacky” when they interpret your statements following the commonly accepted meanings.
Do you disagree that the mainstream establishment is clearly responsible for how people think about health care?
It’s difficult to either agree or disagree with a statement so broad as to be essentially meaningless, especially since apparently I’m not allowed to assume that what you mean by it can be deduced from the commonly accepted meanings of the words you use, the grammatical structure in which they are arranged, and/or the context in which they were written (that, you see, is the weakness of the Humpty Dumpty defense – once you’ve invoked it, nothing you say means anything. It’s the verbal equivalent of dividing by zero.) What I’ve been arguing from the beginning – as I’ve clearly stated several times – is that fears of “forced vaccination” are not “grounded in some reality,” and that the article you referenced concerning end-of-life decision making is not evidence to the contrary.
“The difference between SBM and woo is that real doctors don’t ask for “faith” – they don’t need to, because they have evidence.” Sarah the believer
How sad Sarah, the ‘evidence’ as you put it is an artificial construct, paid for and delivered just like that pizza you order on Saturday night.
It is a shame such an obviously intelligent person has been discombobulated by nice magazines and high sounding words.
“@ johnny #87: No demonstrated benefit? How do you explain away the disappearance of smallpox, polio, native cases of measles (all current outbreaks were brought from overseas), and now mumps?” Pancetta
Well you are living in cloud cook coo land if you think it’s all disappeared. I love your ‘native measles’ medical anecdote, go to India, there is just as much Polio as there was and it’s now called Bill Gates variant Polio. I guess the only thing you read is this blog and Pubmed to have a belief system stacked the way yours is! try reading something else.
I believe in the toothfairy
” Let’s make vaccination of children a public health matter, carried out by the government. When the appropriate age comes, you go to the school building on designated days and have it done, for free.
If you want to opt out, you go there and opt out, and deal with the later consequences. But everyone is treated equally, and it is a community activity.” NobRed
You missed out one thing – dealing with the consequences of vaccination, which is paid for by the taxpayer in special homes for very ill children. So let’s keep it community based and balanced. But I would hardly call assaulting someone at a party of friends a community event.
You will be offering acupuncture next and that would really bring it down.
go to India, there is just as much Polio as there was and it’s now called Bill Gates variant Polio
Perhaps this message would be better directed to the other Thurrock Gateway Rotary members.
Same as it ever was
There is no such thing as a new idea at the Hope Osteopathic Clinic
zebra,
Another goalpost shift, I note, from ‘permission’ to ‘power to decide’, which are not equivalent.
You think I’m insane because I don’t see a doctor signing a form to say that a patient has made an informed decision as being the same as the doctor giving the patient permission to make that decision? That’s interesting.
Here’s another example, this time a California DNR (PDF). The section that a doctor is required to sign states:
That’s not giving permission, that’s recording that the patient made an informed decision, which is not the same thing at all. It certainly doesn’t suggest that problems with EOL care have led people to mistrust vaccinations, or to think that doctors will vaccinated children without their parents consent, which is why you brought up EOL care in the first place.
Interestingly, in the UK most people’s concerns around DNRs seem to be that doctors sometimes put one in a patient’s notes without their consent. That should never happen, of course, but it’s an example of people not getting the treatment they want, the very opposite of concerns about vaccination without consent.
johnny,
“Bill Gates variant polio” gets a mere 12 hits on Google. It seems the only person who calls it that is you, or someone who uses the same repugnant misogynist blokesy language as you.
In India in 1972-4 6.4/1,000 children surveyed in Lucknow suffered from paralytic polio that’s 640 per 100,000.
In India in 2014 the AFP rate was 12.46 per 100,000. Clearly, even if all those cases of AFP were caused by the polio vaccine, there would still have been a fall in polio by a factor of 50. In fact none of those cases of AFP were caused by polio. As the WHO puts it:
What a surprise, johnny is lying again.
Johnny has travelled as far as Liverpool Station and is therefore an expert on telling other people what to expect when they visit India.
” as there was and it’s now called Bill Gates variant Polio.
“Bill Gates variant polio” gets a mere 12 hits on Google. It seems the only person who calls it that is you, or someone who uses the same repugnant misogynist blokesy language as you. ” Krebby pants
Well the truth is getting round. It is flat earthers like you that insist that the Emperor’s pants are up. Have a chat with NobRed, he knows all about bollocks reload. Next you will be telling us there is evidence for vaccine efficacy cos you read it somewhere in a peer reviewed medical pizza online order site.
“Johnny has travelled as far as Liverpool Station and is therefore an expert on telling other people what to expect when they visit India.” Her Doccky
Docky has logged onto pubmed a couple times and is therefore and expert on ‘evidence’. Give that boy a pat.
Apparently when a vaccine fails, there are lots of medical anecdotes we can draw on to reassure the public.
1. It is the process that caused the problem, not the vaccine
2. It isn’t native measles, a naughty foreigner brought it in
3. That naughty virus mutated
4. We need on the way to 100% for herd immunity, this allows us to blame a few people who didn’t sheep.
5. It is out of date
6. Dodgy batch
7. Dodgy doctor
8 Anything you like as long as you don’t suggest/imply/insinuate/accept a bribe to fiddle the data……………………
It is the smiling doctor in the picture that shows up the psychopath in the process. Lovely appeal to emotion, shame about the lack of science – again
Liverpool Street Station, perhaps…
johnny,
The truth is that not a single case of AFP has tested positive for polio, vaccine-derived or otherwise in India since 2011, and that you are a compulsive liar.
Krebiozen,
OK, insane is not correct– suffering from diminished cognitive function, perhaps.
You are the one who said “the power to decide”, not me. Let’s review:
zebra says:
Merriam Webster: permission: “the right or ability to do something that is given by someone who has the power to decide if it will be allowed or permitted”
Ummm… if doctors are the only ones with the power to decide that I can have a DNR, I only have the ability if the doctor so decides.
Why is it relevant what criteria she uses to do so?
Krebiozen says:
“They don’t have the power to decide whether or not you can have a DNR…”
OK? You said it, not me.
The doctor obviously has the power, and so either gives permission or not.
You appear to be hung up on why the doctor might deny me the ability to have a DNR. Again, what difference does it make? What difference does the formal wording of the document make? Unless someone is actually insane and making random decisions, deciding to give permission or not is always based on something.
Now, now, he’s practically laid pipe.
Unfortunately, talk about Mr Gates encouraged me to again wade into the latest load of steaming tripe dumped out by Adriana Gamondes in her 70 part** epic series at AoA.
It is insanely decorated with a composite foetus-in-utero //map of Africa … and you know what that means!
Actually it means very little except in her wildly flailing imagination where she free associates Gates, tetanus vaccines, Kenyan bishops, bin Laden’s assassination, the Clinton Foundation, population control, Mssrs Kissinger and Soros and oh yes, racism.
Throughout she connects ideas or people together and then says things like, “It is unknown” whether these are related.
BUT they could be!
“Gates is merely akin to a hydraulic valve”.
But then, aren’t we all?
Today we are treated to Dan’s creative writing as well when he similarly ( but less floridly) speculates about whether the veteran who killed Chris Kyle along with another gentleman AND a veteran who committed suicide- who both happened to provide humanitarian assistance after the earthquake in Haiti- were victims of the side effects of the anti-malarial, Lariam***. Not that he knows whether either of them even took the drug. But seriously, he knows a television producer who went to Haiti then and SAW how badly others were affected by nightmares and hallucinations. And others said they would never take it.
OBVIOUSLY – to Dan at least- Lariam is much like vaccines.
And anti-depressants and anti-psychotics.
** it’s ten really but seems like much more.
*** -btw- if I were to ever again visit a country where malaria is endemic I would give Lariam a try because I am quite afraid of getting malaria and am a target for mosquitoes.
#155
Mefloquine – the military’s deadly malaria treatment
http://www.army-technology.com/features/featuremefloquine-the-militarys-deadly-malaria-treatment-4402886/
#155 Former Peace Corps Volunteer Sues
over Malaria Drug
blogs.wsj.com/law/2015/03/27/former-peace-corps-volunteers-sues-over-malaria-drug/
http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety/ucm362227.htm
FDA Drug Safety Communication: FDA approves label changes for antimalarial drug mefloquine hydrochloride due to risk of serious psychiatric and nerve side effects
I don’t know which is more futile–waiting for ‘Johnny’ to post something true, or waiting for ken to post something relevant.
@Denise – AoA seems to have adopted the philosophy of “no conspiracy theory is too crazy for us.”
Seriously, they are beginning to give Whale.to a run for its money when it comes to sharing the sheer crazy……give it another year and they’ll be full-on NWO / Illuminati, with a side of Levitating Dolphins for good measure.
@ Lawrence:
Oh I know.
The comments on Gamondes’ latest are quite precious.
#159 Shay just informing Denice #155 of the black box warning before she takes Lariam. Very relevant. Never read AoA.
@ ken:
Who in the world doesn’t know about the warnings?
How about the likelihood of adverse events? And the pre-indications
Anyone can look that up.
THEO @129:
I am. I’ve been following the vaccine manufactroversy since 2010. What I’ve seen is numerous stories that do not stack up, that turn out to be exaggerations or that have a clear non-vaccine cause.
Right, then you won’t mind listing all those sources that corroborate him.
Wrong again. It’s a known tactic to cite a bunch of sources and claim that they support one’s argument when in fact the cites don’t, or even refute the argument. That JGC was able to find that one source does not support the argument is enough to raise doubt that the other cites also support the argument. As the Latin expression goes, falsus in unum, falsus in omni. You have to prove that the listed cites support the claim of vaccines causing autism.
#163 Happy travels!
#155 Too too busy to read nonsence spewed by gamondes. I make more productive use of my time.
Oh, like being rude and clueless on the Internet?
“who, when plugged into existing power and profit schemes, amplifies historical interpretations….”
Mechanical analogies don’t seem to be her strong suit.
JP@167
To be fair, even that probably is a more productive use of time than reading AoA.
I am psychologically “interesting” and I read Gamondes for fun.
zebra,
If you really think that signing a form to confirm that a person has expressed an informed wish to have a DNR is the same as giving them permission to refuse EOL care, I don’t think it’s me that is suffering from diminished cognitive function (to be sure I just tested my IQ and scored well above average, for what it’s worth).
@ JP:
Of course, I do single out these meandering recitatives purely for their intrinsic entertainment value HOWEVER I have a far more nefarious purpose up my sleeve-
which is to point out to my sceptical brothers and sisters how much Gamondes, Olmsted et al will say just about anything to attract an audience, how much their material is pulled from their nether regions rather than verifiable sources and how much they pander to their audience by lining up the ‘bad guys’ or ‘bad meds’ or’ evil corporations/ governments’ to support their fantasies. Gamondes just strings up a list of people whom are already hated by her fellows and then, draws circles and arrows to connect them and blame them for all manner of ill. Dan constructs an argument against a drug based on 2 murders depicted in a movie and a suicide which led to a governmental action *without* knowing if the said actors even took the drug. Then the entire tale is likened to what happened with vaccines.
This isn’t reporting and it isn’t instructive in any way.
Anyone can say anything about anybody or anything but it doesn’t make it true or meaningful.
On that note, I am off to the bayside when they have boats and seafood restaurants which ar certainly more solid than Dan’s speculation.
Flagged for the phrase “Mike Adams thinks.”
“On that note, I am off to the bayside when they have boats and seafood restaurants which ar certainly more solid than Dan’s speculation”
I’m going to have soup I took home from a lovely neighborhood bistro, the sit on my sunny deck and watch the boats parade for the opening of boat season.
“watch the boats parade”
Rats! The trees leafed out. I’ll listen to the boat horns, and look at them when I go upstairs.
But I would hardly call assaulting someone at a party of friends a community event.
I dunno, Andy Wakefield thought it was.
I know it’s been a while, zebra @69:
Actually we do. If the will is challenged on the basis that the testator* was not of sound mind**, then an expert witness — a doctor — will be called in to give an opinion on whether the testator was of sufficiently sound mind when the will was executed. Since the testator is by definition dead by the time of the will contest, this judgement will be based on witness reports of the testator’s action and demeanor. Competent attorneys will make copious notes and ask the testator quite a lot of questions to ensure there is enough evidence if an expert witness is required.
The difference between a will and a DNR is that there’s lots of time to argue about the testator’s mental state; the decision about the validity of a DNR has to be made immediately, under pressure. It makes sense to have competence determined by a doctor up front for a DNR but not necessarily for a will.
*testator (male) or testatrix (female) is the person executing the will.
**sound body is not required, and the requirement of sound mind is more limited than you might think. We had a will contest where the testator was psychotic according to the expert witness. But on the day he made the will, I guess he’d been taking his meds so the will was unheld.
*upheld* not unheld.
@johnny #139: ah, the ad hominem attack. Can’t refute a logical argument so you turn to insult.
Answer the question: if vaccines have no benefit why is there no more small pox in the world? Polio is left in only three countries, and India isn’t one of them (Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Nigeria to be specific). The only measles in the US is that brought here from other countries. Refute that fact. You can’t.
Reading articles on Pub Med isn’t bad reading for the most part. Of course, unlike you, I read the whole article. And I don’t read Age of Autism unless I’m looking for a good laugh.
[i]Anything you like as long as you don’t suggest/imply/insinuate/accept a bribe to fiddle the data……………………[/i]
You need proof of that. The other things on your list are easy to prove. Falsifying data requires a bit more.
Has she only recently decided that the empty-headed coinage “the tech” is a limitless resource?
She’s added another comment to her latest. (Indeed, she seems to be aware that these blobs attract comparatively little interest from the regulars.)
“Similarly, Vaccination was originally conceived to save humanity from genuinely deadly disease, not to sterilize, drive polypharmacy, make incursions on civil rights or as cover for bombing raids. Maybe if it had never been drafted for any of those ulterior purposes, the tech would have advanced more quickly and would have been safer and more effective at this point. And maybe Einstein’s theory of relativity [sic] would have led to the development of clean energy by now if it hadn’t been appropriated for nuclear warfare. We may never know.”
This is a Not Even Wrong multivehicle collision.
The same way that witnesses to a will don’t have the power to decide who gets left what.
Are you aware that there’s more than one doctor?
Think about it.
@ Chris:
Although it isn’t all that far away, it seems so. The air is different and better for people with plant-based allergies
( like me). There’s a huge bay with tidal marshes and wooded groves, various maritime industries (fishing boats, marinas, boat services, ferries) and restaurants and fish shops.
Actually we found very good Malaysian food in one of the less posh towns where you could watch the boats from the deck or the windows. My companion likes to look at old, useless junk in crappy store with which this town was rife.
So it was worthwhile.
Device Walter@155
You forgot to mention the title of Dan’s article is “This Dude Is Straight-Up Nuts” and make the requisite “that’s exactly what I was thinking joke.”
JP@170
Gamondes gives me a headache (unless that’s just how it feels to have your mind blown, but I’m pretty sure it’s just a headache). I do like looking at the “absolutely incredible fine art,” as one of her commenters describes it.
It was only a matter of time before the anti-vaccination people started trying to criminalize vaccines.
“As for the school vaccinations, same thing. I don’t know why people would be afraid of vaccinations taking place in a clinic-type setting if they don’t bring their kids to it.” Zebra
Because this is the education system being hijacked to underwrite a flawed process. Bit like handing out free milk in schools when there is no food value at all in pasteurized milk, that policy has created generations of milk drinkers.
You know the shots of politicians eating beefburgers just before the BSE crisis kicked off. There we go, more total disaster because ‘food experts’ thought it ok to feed cows to cows. That was one very public time when being what you would call a ‘food faddist’ was actually the new black.
Banking crisis, middle East crisis, chronic illness crisis….. all driven by those proper experts you talk about and all paid for by the man in the street. If you wonder why we have a problem with nice pretend vaxxy clinics in schools it is because schools are supposed to be safe places that don’t abuse kids – especially when the doccy is smiling whilst teacher looks on.
Same with telling kids at school the story about Jenner and the milk maids, some are unlucky enough to believe that fairy story.
Just to remind NobRed – I am not Mr Hill and never have been. Nor am I someone called Philldo. Get some tissues and put something on it.
““Similarly, Vaccination was originally conceived to save humanity from genuinely deadly disease, not to sterilize, drive polypharmacy, make incursions on civil rights or as cover for bombing raids.” NobRed
Well it has spectacularly failed Oh Nobby one. Now, like with other failed medical processes, they are trying to put all the spend into other markets.
” Polio is left in only three countries, and India isn’t one of them (Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Nigeria to be specific). The only measles in the US is that brought here from other countries. Refute that fact. ” Panfried pubmed
Polio has been renamed NPFP, it hasn’t gone. When there was a nuclear accident in the UK they renamed the power station, it was Sizewell B and became overnight Windscale, or was it the other way round.There was also a move to name radiation ‘freaky moonbeams’ to make it appear safer.
If you want to believe Bill Gates, then the fantasy is all yours baby. Blaming disease on immigrants is the kind of thing those people who support ethnic cleansing do – I guess you must be a proper doctor then? All that expensive training, maybe you should start selling shares with your ethos.
“Wrong again. It’s a known tactic to cite a bunch of sources and claim that they support one’s argument when in fact the cites don’t, or even refute the argument.” julian Frost
yes this thread was started by a paper that implied there was no link between autism and mercury. When you read the paper it says nothing of the sort.
Meanwhile here in medical geekski central, all sorts of odd people are posting away like complete nutters, convinced they are really having an impact.
There is no paper to support this, but, no one is listening…….
it was Sizewell B and became overnight Windscale, or was it the other way round.
If only there were some way that stupid people could look stuff up on the internet when they wanted to look less stupid.
#177 LW,
At least you can make a coherent argument– it doesn’t hold up for me, but it is thoughtful. First one so far; maybe we can learn something.
First, in case you missed it, “doctors are infallible judges of competence” was sarcasm.
Second, I assume you understand from my other comments that my issue here is autonomy of the individual, or at least the perception of having ‘ownership’ of one’s body.
So, and I may not be using the term with technical precision, who has “standing” in this matter?
I can imagine, for example, that a family member could sue the doctor who signed the DNR for wrongful death/malpractice, and bring in expert testimony that the testator was in fact not competent.
But if DNR were executed like a will (my preference,) there wouldn’t be anyone to sue.
On the other hand, think of the trouble that would be saved if wills were treated like DNRs. (Providing you less business, of course.)
Given these observations, perhaps you could explain for whom “It makes sense to have competence determined by a doctor up front for a DNR but not necessarily for a will.”
When you are as stupid as Philip Hills, all places outside Essex probably look the same.
Another piss-proud start to the L-rd’s day in Essex, I presume.
zebra,
Does it ever occur to you to wonder why you encounter so many people you end up accusing of having poor reasoning, a poor education, poor communication skills, disordered thinking and/or cognitive impairment in your discussions on the interwebz? Isn’t the fact that the common denominator is you a clue to what is going on?
Of course there would be someone to sue: the doctor(s) who failed to save the patient’s life without good reason.
I’m sure you must have examples of people whose doctors refused to sign DNRs despite their clear, informed and competent wishes, and examples of doctors being sued for signing DNRs when patients were not competent. Otherwise this looks very much like you just making stuff up to support your inane arguments.
“But I would hardly call assaulting someone at a party of friends a community event.
I dunno, Andy Wakefield thought it was.”
Yes but at least he was honest enough to give them a fiver for their trouble and everyone knew what was being asked of them. Taking a blood sample isn’t going to kill you or reduced your life expectancy like a vaccine with loads of unknown effects waiting to floor your immune system.
Funny, not one of the parents at that party complained to the GMC about anything at all. Only a pharma shill newspaper reporter who was working for someone who had a financial interest in the subject and family members on the board of the publishing medical peer reviewed journals.
Why did no parents complain at all? And why has the consultant GIT surgeon that worked with Wakefield now been reinstated with all charges against him dismissed?
#193 Krebiozen,
A legally binding DNR protects the doctors who (don’t) treat the patient. Duh.
LW seems to have some legal background so maybe you could act like a grownup and allow him/her to follow up on this? Maybe you could go read the dictionary definition of “permission” I provided again and see if you can sort out your own reasoning on your own topic?
“The truth is that not a single case of AFP has tested positive for polio, vaccine-derived or otherwise in India since 2011, and that you are a compulsive liar.” Krappedinyapants otherwise known as fucxy
Well it wouldn’t would it, according to the CDC it is a different disease! Is that the best you can do? You are a compulsive shoveler of applied manure, par excel-lance!
let’s test lots of people for RA and then announce they are all free of rabies. Or how about putting labels on cucumbers that say ‘gluten free’ or ‘not known to cause hayfever’
We could put on the insert for flulaval vaccine ‘not known to prevent influenza’ —-oh look, they have already thought of that……………….Next………………If you see Mr Hill, please apologise on my behalf.
@zebra, I’ll try again.
Start with the will. You have the right to leave your estate to whomever you please*. However, it has been observed historically that (a) some people make wills while suffering some form of incapacitation or undue influence such that we do not believe the wills actually reflect their wishes; and (b) some people, you will be shocked to learn, actually forge wills to obtain benefits which the testator never intended them to have.
Now, as to a DNR. In this case, even more than the case of a will, there is the possibility that the person executing the DNR (I’ll call him or her the “patient” for short) may be under some influence that makes their decision suspect, or the DNR may be an outright fraud by someone who wants the patient dead. And this document has a very immediate effect: if it is honored, the patient will likely die (that’s the point, after all), and if it is not honored, the patient may end up receiving treatment he did not want and explicitly rejected while competent.
The law needs some mechanism to ensure, in both cases (will and DNR), that the document presented is what it purports to be and reflects the wishes of the person who executed it.
There is an entire body of law built up around proper execution and proving of wills**. Part of that is law about contesting wills and the sort of proof required. So, in particular, a will which is not holographic*** requires at least two witnesses’ signatures in this jurisdiction. The witnesses do not give the testator “permission” to make a will or to include any given terms; rather their signatures attest to the Court that the will really is that of the testator.
But will contests take time; counting initial research, trial, and appeal, they could easily go on for more than a year. But that’s tolerable — not much happens while waiting for a decision on appeal; the personal representative of the estate just maintains the property and waits.
Contrast this with a DNR. Things are happening and may continue to happen for years if the DNR is not honored. So we want something better than a will, some more reliable proof that the document presented should be relied upon. Legislatures have grappled with this problem and established procedures to try to protect patient autonomy without opening the door to fraud. Bringing in a doctor to, in effect, give expert witness up front is not unreasonable in this regard.
I will also point this out: if you tried to make a will but didn’t follow the required procedures (it isn’t holographic but has only one witness), your will is null and void and will not be enforced, ever. But if you tried to make a DNR but failed to follow the required forms, that does not mean you stay on life support for years; your expressed decision can be presented to the Court, which can order life support discontinued. But, again, that may mean you received undesired treatment for a long time.
*subject to some forced share to the spouse and/or children, depending on circumstances.
**I find it interesting and could go on in this vein for a long time but I won’t.
***a holographic will is entirely written, dated, and signed in the testator’s own handwriting. Such wills may not be valid in other jurisdictions but they are here. They are also will contest magnets; when I was working for a law firm half of the holographic wills we presented were contested.
tl;dr: in the case of either a will or a DNR, legislatures must find a balance between respecting an individual’s autonomy and preventing fraud or unfortunate decisions made while incapacitated. Because of the tight time constraints on operation of a DNR, the requirements in that case may reasonably be more stringent than the requirements for a will; that includes an up-front opinion by a person with relevant expertise (a doctor in other words) that the person executing the document is competent to do so.
LW,
I don’t think you’ve advanced your argument or, more important, answered my question.
First, as to influence or fraud– I go to a notary and have my will witnessed by two people. My bank provides the service, in fact; it’s very convenient. Complex tv-crime-show conspiracy-plots aside, that suffices; no gun to my head, I’m not drooling and incoherent, and it is really me signing it.
So, why does this not suffice for the DNR?
You say: “The witnesses do not give the testator “permission” to make a will or to include any given terms; rather their signatures attest to the Court that the will really is that of the testator. ”
Well, that’s not the case at all– their signatures attest to what I said; no gun, no obvious impairment, really me. Neither witnesses nor notary are attributed any special expertise, beyond what an ordinary person has.*
So the statement: “I need a doctor’s permission to refuse treatment (get a DNR)” holds. Doctor is a special category; the doctor does in fact address the content of the document.
But the real problem here is that you still haven’t answered my question of standing, or whose interests are being served. Can you give a concise answer to that?
*The notary is only assumed to be ‘honest’, and ensure that the witnesses are not parties to the document.
Wrong thread. This thread is about incorrect claims that SB 277 will lead to forced vaccination. If you mean “The Parrot is still dead and MMR still doesn’t cause autism”, that dealt with a report that looked at the rate of autism and vaccines in the younger siblings of children with an autism diagnosis. So you’re at best wrong and at worst a liar.
Wrong again. The politician in question ate that beefburger AFTER the BSE crisis to show confidence in the product. You can’t even get timelines right.
Wrong again, particularly re the Middle East. The experts were ignored and war was declared, because the Bush Administration and the neo-conservatives thought they knew better than the experts.
The falsity of your claim has been pointed out before. You are once again lying in the face of proof to the opposite.
And once again my irony and hypocrisy meters explode.
“Can you give a concise answer to that?”
I’ll try. The two witnesses and a notary are *not* sufficient to prove the will if contested. Your competence can still be challenged and the testimony of the witnesss and notary will be evidence used by the expert witnesses in assessing your competence at the time*. Such a challenge takes time.
In the case of a DNR, the decision must be made fast. There is no time for a court hearing**. So we can reasonably demand a higher burden of proof up front.
You ask, “whose interests are being served.” Well, yours, mainly. The reason DNRs exist at all is because there’s a presumption that you do want treatment, so legislatures require a certain formality to the decision to reject it when you are not competent to speak. Secondarily, it protects the medical personnel as there is proof that they are carrying out your wishes.
Again, the difference between a will and a DNR is that there is time to research and argue and bring in expert witnesses regarding a will; there is not time to do so in a life-or-death situation where a DNR is relevant.
*we had a case which turned on exactly that question: was the testator competent when the two witnesses and a notary witnessed his signature? The expert witness said he was.
** though such a hearing could be held later if necessary but by that time you will have been given treatment that perhaps you did not want.
One more tl;dr.
You own your body and have a right to make decisions about your care. If you are unable to express such decisions, someone else must make them for you. Legislatures have balanced the issues of patient autonomy, fraud, and incapacity, and have come up with procedures you can use to instruct those making such decisions for you. As part of that, they may require a doctor to determine up-front whether you are currently competent to make such decisions.
I think that is reasonable. You don’t. So pester your legislators about it and maybe they’ll change the procedures.
That’s an astonishingly easy request to fulfill:
A will does not necessarily require an upfront finding of competence or (for that matter) any medically authorized finding because it’s not a medical document, which means — among other things — that honoring your wishes about the disposition of your estate does not necessarily have implications of any kind for medical practice or medical practitioners.
The same could not be said of your wishes to receive medical treatment up to a certain point but not beyond it. The honoring of those potentially has implications for numerous people. They are, in point of fact, so very different from the implications raised by your wishes regarding the disposition of your estate after your death that the two effectively have nothing in common, rendering just about all comparison between them pointless.
With me so far? Okay. Prepare yourself for a surprise:
You’re actually not the only person whose rights and interests need to be considered in order to guarantee that your wishes not to receive medical treatment are honored!.
And it’s not just about you and the doctor, either! Emotionally compelling as it may be to you to conceive of the whole business exclusively as a power struggle between you and the he or she over competency/autonomy that takes place in the special little fantasy world that you two alone share, that’s not really what a POLST is designed to accommodate!
For example, to quote from the National POLST website:
IOW:
It makes sense to have a doctor sign a POLST because in practical reality, medical personnel are necessarily obligated to the ethical practice of medicine and not, per se, to your wish not to be resuscitated, the medical validity of which they have no ethical way of determining in the real, practical circumstance of your imminent death, which happens to be the circumstance that a POLST is designed to accommodate.
So. If you can think of a simpler, more expedient, less burdensome, fairer or otherwise better way of guaranteeing that the wish of a terminally ill patient in the end stages of treatment not to be resuscitated will be honored that creates fewer impositions on the autonomous rights of all concerned, feel free to propose it.
It would still be off-topic, of course. But the problem with your present position is that narrow, solipsistic emotional considerations are not the only kind. And at least it would address that.
Shorter version:
The reason a POLST requires a doctor’s signature is that it’s purpose isn’t to make you feel like you have the autonomous right to have your wish not to be resuscitated honored at each and every moment leading up to the event. It’s to guarantee that you have it when you need it. And it does that.
How you feel about the way it does that is your autonomous business. You’ve got a right to it. But it’s a separate right. And the POLST doesn’t impinge on it. So you just have to learn to tolerate the discomfort of having rights
There’s an “it’s” that should be an “its” in there, sorry.
LW,
You keep repeating parts of this that I’ve answered– the doctor who signed the DNR can be sued for malpractice, just as a will can be contested. Same issue– was the testator competent at the signing, and different experts will have different opinions.
As to protecting the medical personnel at the time, asked and answered as well– a legally binding DNR does that, whether the controlling statute requires a doctor’s permission or not.
So, we come to the crux, which is your observation that this is indeed a “nanny state” kind of issue; it supposedly protects me from making a decision about my body for ‘inappropriate’ reasons, and it assigns power to judge what is ‘appropriate’ to anyone with an MD.
So yes, you and I may disagree on what modality is preferable, but what you haven’t done is refute in any way the claim that I’ve been making, which is this:
It is reasonable to question the extent to which I may have autonomy with respect to my body, both de facto and de jure, in interacting with the medical establishment.
“I need a doctor’s permission to refuse treatment.” (This is clearly self-contradictory in conception, which is often referred to in modern colloquial usage as oxymoronic.)
After reading more of johnny’s mind boggling reality dysfunction, I’m wondering why I can never find http://www.weirdideasandeverythingisaconspiracy.com.
Ann, 203, 204
Very long and not to the point (see last part of 206).
“So. If you can think of a simpler, more expedient, less burdensome, fairer or otherwise better way of guaranteeing that the wish of a terminally ill patient in the end stages of treatment not to be resuscitated will be honored that creates fewer impositions on the autonomous rights of all concerned, feel free to propose it.”
Asked and answered many times now. I go to my bank, where a standardized form containing all the information, with all the colors you like, is signed and notarized and witnessed by the nice bank lady and a couple of tellers.
Somehow, the notion that a “nice bank lady & a couple of tellers” should be sufficient for making life and death (literally) decisions, seems a bit off……
One more time …
The objection to the nanny state is that it deprives competent individuals of the opportunity to exercise their personal autonomy. If a DNR becomes relevant, you must already be incapable of exercising your personal autonomy, thus you are at that moment exactly the person that the nanny state ought to protect.
There are procedures in place to protect you in that event, inclding ensuring that you are competent to make decisions in advance of the crisis. They seem reasonable to me, not to you. Take it up with your legislator.
zebra: let’s make this really easy. A DNR is a MEDICAL ORDER. Medical orders are only to be followed when signed by a doctor. No signature, no order. No legality. Period.
“THEO, you are so full of you-know-what your eyes are brown.” Julian Frost
So do you have a problem with brown eyes then Julian – is that a dog whistle for more segregation? Excluding people from society for their beliefs is a slippery slope.
Proper Johnny
” Polio has been renamed NPFP, it hasn’t gone.
The falsity of your claim has been pointed out before. You are once again lying in the face of proof to the opposite.” Septicus rantus
So I take it you watched Susan Humphries brilliant expose on the bullshit of Polio vaccine then?
Proper Johnny.
Once again, johnny proves he just doesn’t get euphemisms, particularly euphemistic references to expletives about solid excrement.
Suzanne Humphries (note spelling) has had her arguments dismantled here before. I don’t listen to her for the same reason I don’t listen to creationists on evolution or Age of Autism on vaccines and autism. I ignore liars.
“I need a doctor’s permission to refuse treatment.”
Just to belabor the point some more, this is untrue. If you are aware and competent*, you can refuse any treatment you want. Doctors may argue with you — I’ve seen a doctor actually plead with a patient not to do this to himself — but if you’re determined to refuse, then they’re legally obliged to honor that refusal**.
BUT
if you’re not aware and competent, someone must make a decision for you. There are several ways this could be done. We might have a rule that in this case you are presumed to consent to any and all treatment. We might have a rule that you are presumed to refuse all treatment and should be left to die.
Or we might (and do) have procedures whereby you could state in advance what you do and do not refuse. There are various effects and varying degrees of formality involved. A DNR is one example; it is, as MI Dawn points out, a medical order and thus must be signed by a doctor. A POLST is another example that requires a doctor’s signature. A health care power of attorney is another example; so is an advance directive. These very likely could be executed in front of the nice bank lady and a couple of tellers. If none of the above is available, the Court may appoint a guardian for you and the guardian will make the decisions that you cannot make.
If you don’t like the range of choices available to provide for refusing treatment in case you are incompetent to do so at the time, or the formalities required, then bug your legislator to change them or offer others.
*this includes being of sufficient age.
**yeah, yeah, there may be cases where, through accident or ill-will, such refusal is not honored. That does not change the principle.
@LW
Thanks for the explainations, very informative. Starting to get a little repetitive but such is the nature of trying to explain something to zebra. A stopped clock is right twice a day but if it starts out wrong amd keeps moving it will always be wrong.
Julian Frost@214
Which would be true if it was johnny and not Johnny. Easy mistake though, it confuses the hell out of me too. But the real victim is [email protected] who had his identity stolen. We should all agree to call lowercase johnny by his real name, Phillip Hills. It seems to bother him so maybe if enough people do it he’ll switch to a new sockpuppet that’s not the same as someone else’s ‘nym.
zebra,
Have you ever talked to any doctors, medical ethicists or patients nearing the end of their lives about DNRs and EOL care, as I have? Or have you just blundered into yet another subject you have no clue about, as is your usual MO?
And a lawyer is qualified to assess a person’s competence how? Let’s say someone complains that their deceased parent, who was not resuscitated because of a DNR drawn up according to your model, was suffering from depression and was not competent to sign a DNR. Let’s say the patient was in fact fooled or coerced into doing so by a beneficiary in their will. The lawyer is only going to check the patient’s identity and isn’t going to check their medical history or notice an impairment that is obvious to a medic but not a layperson. Who is liable to be sued? The lawyer? Or the doctor who withheld CPR?
An admonishment to act like a grownup from someone who uses the word “duh” and appears to have the intellectual capacity of a 6-year-old? Oh the irony. It seems you don’t like what LW has to say either, despite the legal background.
As I have pointed out repeatedly, a doctor signs a DNR to confirm the patient’s expressed wishes about EOL care, it does not grant permission to refuse EOL care, it records the patient’s wishes. I don’t know on what planet recording someone’s wishes is equivalent to granting someone permission, but it isn’t the one I live on.
We have already seen that you don’t understand the meaning of various English words and concepts, like “on average”, “probability”, “the gambler’s fallacy”, “filibuster”, “parsimony”, “hypothesis testing”, “a”, “the”, “null hypothesis”, “should”, “can”, “who”, “consistent” (which you memorably described as “an obscure term of art”), and “oxymoron”. I’ll add “permission” to the list.
Incidentally, it does amuse me that people are having to give simpler shortened versions of their comments because of your apparent inability to read and comprehend more than a couple of paragraphs.
@capnkrunch, sorry for the repetition. If I’m trying to explain something to someone who doesn’t get it, I tend to keep trying with the expectation that somehow I didn’t explain clearly. But I guess that’s pointless with someone who’s determined not to understand.
LW,
I’m sure zebra understands it, once again s/he has just dug himself into a hole and is too pig-headed to admit s/he has made a mistake. Trying to blame some people’s mistrust of vaccines on problems with EOL care is just ludicrous; the rest is just an attempt to distract form his/her initial blunder.
To the other johnny, I really must object to you using ‘Proper Johnny’.
I was, so far as I know, the first to use the ‘nym ‘Johnny’ on this board. When you arrived, I was somewhat concerned that there would be some level of confusion, but in short order it was clear to me that, while I am a bit player here, any ‘brand recognition’ I may have is safe.
You settled on lower case, I have always used uppercase, along with my local IP address, and, in an effort to further separate us, I started signing ‘Proper Johnny’ when we were in the same thread, because, hey, I *was* here first and I wanted to make darn sure there was no confusion between us.
I have no strong opinion on the issue of your name – it may really be johnny, or Phillip, or something else, I really don’t care. But going out of your way to create confusion is a dick move, and speaks to your character.
Julian Frost@214
Sorry, I didn’t realize that lowercase johnny was now using uppercase and signing Proper Johnny. You are clearly more observant than I. Thanks for pointing that out [email protected].
LW@219
Oh, no need to apologize. If anything, I’m impressed that you didn’t throw your hands in the air and yell (loudly type?) “how can I make it any simpler?” after the second time.
Suzanne Humphries (note spelling) has had her arguments dismantled here before.
Perhaps our chav friend is under a geas that forces him to misspell names. Perhaps “anne-to-an” is a feature of Estuary English. Perhaps someone installed a macro on his computer to see if he’d notice.
Oddly enough, the same misspelling is prevalent in osteopathy circles —
https://www.facebook.com/osteopathandacupunctureessex/posts/883099161730806
— so it is possible that johnny picked it up there and now obstinately continues to parrot the error out of Oppositional Defiance.
What part of “the autonomous rights of all concerned” do you not understand? That doesn’t do it for the EMTs. They are required to do what it takes to sustain life, absent medical orders. The nice bank lady is not empowered or qualified to make your wishes into medical orders. A doctor is.
It’s not complicated. You are not the only person whose interests need to be accommodated. You get the right to refuse medical treatment. But you don’t get it entirely your way. Because it’s not your world alone. That’s life.
ann@224
Great point. I know I said I wasn’t going to respond to zebra anymore but your point reminded me of something I’ve been thinking. It might help to think of a DNR not as a doctor giving you permission to refuse treatment but rather as a doctor giving other healthcare workers to not provide treatment.
“…giving other healthcare workers permission to not provide treatment.”
Further to the above, @zebra:
Not to overtax your attention span or anything. But the EMTs are required to do what it takes to sustain life absent medical orders for reasons that also have nothing to do with you, or your wish not to be resuscitated, or any individual’s.
You can get the DNR by having a doctor sign a POLST. Since POLSTS are for patients with terminal conditions and less than a year to live, it’s very likely that won’t take the vast majority of them far out of their way.
Your little fantasy about doctors treading on your rights is exactly that. But even if one did, you would have recourse to another doctor. So it’s not much of a problem, as far as I can see.
What is it about this imaginary prospect that you find so intolerable, precisely? .
Or even as a doctor making your wishes a higher priority than any other medical consideration. Because that’s what it effing is, in reality. The tyrannical doctor who isn’t the boss of zebra is purely notional.
And by “purely notional,” I mean that zebra is autonomously empowered to solve the problem of that nasty, rights-infringing doctor, simply by ceasing to imagine that one is threatening his or her right to a DNR.
I mean, it’s not like doctors stand to benefit by doing that. And it’s not like there’s an iota of evidence that they are doing it. It’s a fantasy. And one with no apparent topical raison d’etre, at that.
@ann,
I think zebra has a very binary view of things. Witness:
Apparently zebra thinks that if there is any impediment whatsoever to your free exercise of your personal autonomy under any circumstances at all, then you have been robbed of all personal autonomy. I tried to point out that this isn’t so. I was apparently unsuccessful.
ann@228
zebra doesn’t seem to think very highly of EMTs nor have a very good understanding of how EMS systems in the US work. In #74 he said:
referring to my comment that I, as a paramedic, legally cannot withhold resuscitation without a doctor’s order. Of course being the supergenius he/she is, zebra knows more about EMS than I do and more about law than LW. I’m not sure what you’re profession is ann but zebra is probably more knowledgable than you about that as well.
Additionally, even assuming you can get around the obstacle of the EMTs without causing more hellish complications for others than you’re saving for yourself:
Can you see how that would not present a very high bar to clear from the perspective of someone who was more eager to see a frail, elderly person in his or her care shuffle off than that person was to go?
I mean, I don’t think that would be an epidemic problem. But abuse of the elderly by home health aides is a documented occurrence. So there’s a real basis for reasonably regarding it as a potential risk than there is that a doctor is going to high-handedly refuse to sign your POLST just because he or she can.
Plus there’s nothing preventing the putative high-handed doctor’s patient from finding another doctor.
Once again: “Better” means “better for all concerned,” and not just “better suited to your taste and temperament.”
In case it needs spelling out, what I’m saying is:
I think you need a little bit more of a rigorous system for assuring that the person getting the document notarized is the person whose name is on the ID (and/or is acting willingly, wittingly, etc.) than a bank lady and some tellers can realistically provide, given what’s at stake and the vulnerability of many people whose lives are nearing the end,
Possibly a doctor who knows them and is qualified to assess competency. Something of that nature.
PS — It’s not all about you.
I mean, just for example, zebra:
You’re presumably not an Alzheimer’s patient in the care of a home health aide. But a lot of people are. Your little modest proposal does not take the full range of their potential needs and interests into account. And they too have rights, what with being people and all.
How do you suggest that be addressed?
Despite the fact that, most certainly, IANAL, as it happens, I have been a notary public at a law firm! (Like most everybody else on the night shift, although not in the good old days of embossers.)
One might note that an acknowledgment only means that someone says that they freely signed something (past tense), not that they had the slightest idea what it was.
The same goes for a jurat, except that one has to take a Very Solemn Oath that one’s statements in the document are true and sign in the presence of the notary.
Who, by the way, can only ask which you prefer.
Aha. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I missed it the first time. The use of the phrase “de facto and de jure” by someone posting comments to the internet tends to go hand in hand with an inability to grasp that rights are contingent on factors and circumstances, in my personal experience.
…
However.
I guess it kind of goes without saying that it’s reasonable to question the extent to which one may have autonomy with respect to one’s body, both de facto and de jure, when interacting with the medical establishment, if one happens to be ignorant on that point.
I mean, these things are good to know. Let’s say you wanted the medical establishment to amputate your left arm because you had autonomous reasons of your own for wishing to be rid of it, for example. Because it doesn’t extend to that point. And as a matter of both fact and law, one might reasonably expect the medical establishment to respond to a request of that kind by questioning the mental competency of the person who made it, Or possibly even putting him or her on 72-hour hold.
Forewarned is forearmed. So to speak.
^ Another way of putting my previous comment is that a notarized document has no legal force other than against the signer.
Looks like it might be time to recommend that zebra deal with the beams before taking on the motes, doesn’t it?
A few things seem to have gotten overlooked.
I am disappointed that I can’t find even an effort at drawing a Superhero Notary Public. I may be able to get somebody on it.
ann,
As you are probably aware, this hypothetical situation does sometimes occur, usually diagnosed as body integrity identity disorder or sometimes apotemnophilia. Even more bizarrely, a Scottish doctor has amputated healthy limbs in at least two of these patients, but not until other avenues had been explored:
There’s an interesting discussion of the ethics of this situation here. It may seem barbaric, but consider gender reassignment surgery, which is generally accepted. Medical ethics is an ever-fascinating area, full of shades of gray.
Groan 🙂
What irritates me about zebra’s “motes and beams” is that beams are much worse than motes. I don’t agree that problems of the medical profession are much worse than those of alt med or antivaxxers, or whatever zebra is defending at the moment.
So, the only answer, in various forms, that the combined genius of the Minions can provide, is this:
Q: Why is a Doctor’s signature necessary on a DNR.
A: Because it’s a Medical Order.
Q: Why is it a Medical Order?
A: Because ti requires a Doctor’s signature.
Or, from the legal genius side: “Well, see, it’s the law, dontcha know?”
And then there’s “what about the poor EMT?”. Which is kind of strange since the expert EMT says treatment would automatically be started without looking for a DNR.
So we return to what I said at 206:
So yes, you and I may disagree on what modality is preferable, but what you haven’t done is refute in any way the claim that I’ve been making, which is this:
It is reasonable to question the extent to which I may have autonomy with respect to my body, both de facto and de jure, in interacting with the medical establishment.
“I need a doctor’s permission to refuse treatment.” (This is clearly self-contradictory in conception, which is often referred to in modern colloquial usage as oxymoronic.)”
Which, apart from being correct, causes a problem for some who translate “question the extent to which…”
as a binary statement:
“Apparently zebra thinks that if there is any impediment whatsoever to your free exercise of your personal autonomy under any circumstances at all, then you have been robbed of all personal autonomy.”
I thought I was on a science blog, but apparently I’ve stumbled on a Fox News subsidiary. Or maybe it’s a false-flag anti-vax operation, designed to make the pro-vax side look inept and Authoritarian?
Okay, zebra, have it your way. Under certain dire circumstances, when you are incapable of exercising your own personal bodily autonomy through injury, disease, infirmity, or the like, the medical establishment will indeed act upon your body in the ways which society believes — but you evidently di not — best reflect what you would have done if you were able to exercise your personal bodily autonomy, which you were not. In pursuit of this, certain procedures are offered whereby you can express your desires for exercising your personal bodily autonomy in advance.
Happy now?
This has nothing to do with antivaxxers.
zebra, either you’re wooden-headed or trolling. Neither reflects well on you.
No. It requires a Doctor’s Signature because despite what you think, it’s very hard for a non-physician to distinguish if someone is of sound mind.
In #199, you mentioned getting a will. Your comment was:
Leaving aside the sheer offensiveness of your characterisation of mental illness, your naivete is mindblowing. Signs of mental illness are often very subtle, and many mentally ill people can appear lucid. That you imagine that the signs of mental illness are always so unambiguous that people who are not medically trained can detect them astounds me. That is why a qualified physician has to fill out the DNR.
With regards to wills as opposed to DNR’s, wills are frequently challenged in court, and quite often the person contesting gets the will overturned. Suppose a DNR is implemented but then turns out to be incorrect, for whatever reason. Maybe the patient was mentally ill, maybe he/she was coerced. In that situation, you can’t bring the patient back to life.
To quote Ian Fleming, Death is forever. That is why DNR’s and POLST’s have to be so carefully drawn up.
“Complex tv-crime-show conspiracy-plots aside, that suffices”
I wasn’t commenting on this because the argument was already off-topic. Let’s just say zebra obviously has never been involved in a will contest.
Justthestats
Everyone who works with scientific research for a living knows that prepublication peer review is the first step towards scientific acceptance, not the end-all-be-all stamp of scientific acceptance.
Oh really? maybe for scientists but for the rest of the world and the media when people hear “peer reviewed” its considered, case closed, science has spoken! GOSPEL
Clearly the pharmaceutical industry which has EVERYTHING at stake and a lot to lose will do everything and anything to make sure it maintains power in heath care. They operate like a cartel. strong arming scientists, infiltrating medical schools, sucking up to doctors, demonizing alt practitioners, creating doubt in the vitamin supplements etc. Cant you see that?
With peer review reduced to rubbish by former editors, there is no reason to believe any of the research on vaccine safety or any other drugs these monopolies push. The fact is you don’t need most of the toxic medicine they recommend.
The damn is breaking the foundation is weak. Its just a matter of time. People are waking up. And if you are still clinging on to your erroneous faith in pharmaceutical science you may want to reconsider. ITS A HUGE FUCKING LIE.
Food is the ultimate medicine DUH! What do you get from food? vitamins what do you get from vitamins? nutrients. the building blocks of life.
JP I am not sure who is more of a weasel you or Nobred.
zebra@243
I assume you are referring to #74 where I said:
In a way, you are correct. I’m not going to go out of my way to find your DNR. Working a code is work intensive, I don’t generally have the manpower to send someone to hunt down your DNR if it is not readily available. Also, it is well known that even small delays in CPR can cause worse outcomes. If I delay CPR on every patient to look through their wallet in order to confirm they do not have a DNR that is going be harmful to patients who do want to be resuscitated. Like I said before our default mode is resuscitate everyone and to suggest that we do otherwise is ludicrous.
In a way you are also wrong. If there is family or a caretaker on scene I will always ask about DNRs. If I have extra hands (one place I worked dispatched PD to every call and that’s a pretty common practice) I will send someone to look for it. If it is not immediately available I will start CPR at least while they look for it. As was the case with your original link, I cannot honor something I don’t have. If the DNR is found I will terminate resuscitation provided there is no return of spontaneous circulation. However, delaying care while we wait is going to lead to poor outcomes for those patients who do not have DNRs. As Sarah A succinctly put it in #83 “you can always die later, but once you’re dead there’s no re-do.”
So again, there are issues but they are not what you seem to think they are. In this case it is with educating the family. First off, don’t call 911. We’re not cops, you won’t see us unless you call first. Second, if we somehow end up there (maybe one family memeber disagrees and called us) make sure you have DNR immediately ready. Third, keep the DNR somewhere readily apparent in case something happens while no one else is around. Best is on the fridge. Once again you are being disingenuous*. It’s not that I won’t look for a DNR, it’s that I won’t delay care to ensure that there is none. That would be unfair to every patient without a DNR not to mention both unethical and illegal.
*I’m getting tired of calling you disingenuous so looked it up in thesaurus to see if I could switch it up this time but there’s really no other word that fits as perfectly.
LW@246
If nothing else, you have to give zebra this: he/she is pretty good at derailing the thread. If you trace the thread back it all stems from his/her statement in #22 that “it is difficult to allay fears when the fears are grounded in some reality,” in reply to Dorit Reiss saying in #16 “but remember that the anti-vaccine people express concern that their children will be force vaccinated if efforts are, for example, held in school,” and zebra’s use of end of life care in support of that.
What’s really bizarre to me is that the idea of vaccinating everyone as a community at school was zebra’s idea to begin with. Which means this all started with zebra making a nonsense argument in support of a criticism of his/her own idea. I think that is pretty good evidence that zebra’s intent was simply to be troll from the very beginning; which would be consistent with zebra’s behavior in other threads as well.
#245 Julian Frost,
You misinterpret the ‘drooling and incoherent’– for example, someone could be falling-down drunk. Probably, most notaries would decline to serve that person.
The fact that mental illness can be hard to detect actually supports my position.
We have very high standards for determining that a person is a threat to himself (or others), allowing government to violate the person’s physical autonomy.
For example, we do not prevent the homeless, many of whom are mentally ill, from sleeping on the street in freezing weather; we don’t round them up and test them for psychosis or depression, and force them into institutions. But somehow, an otherwise apparently functional adult refusing to be subjected to some invasive procedure in the future is deemed “potentially not competent” a priori.
Beam, mote, anyone?
capnkrunch,
“What’s really bizarre to me is that the idea of vaccinating everyone as a community at school was zebra’s idea to begin with. Which means this all started with zebra making a nonsense argument in support of a criticism of his/her own idea”
Maybe you should go back and read the comments you perhaps missed when you flounced off. And explain what is a “criticism of his own idea”?
More anti-vax fol de rol:
They often say that ‘great minds think alike’- well, I don’t know how that would apply in this case but…
I seem to have run across such a meeting of the “minds”
today courtesy of Ann Dachel ( AoA) and Mike Adams ( Natural News)
Mikey ventures that perhaps the Governor of California supports laws that make evading vaccination more difficult in order to create a generation of vaccine ‘damaged’ individuals who will not baulk at menial, repetitive work.
Dachel speaks of a “generation of developmentally disabled” children who will soon become adults. “36%” of them have learning disabilities, so many are autistic or have psychological problems. Where will it all end? she moans. Of course, NONE of these issues have ever existed before the advent of increased vaccination or the ((shudder)) “Age of Autism”.
We haven’t EVER had adults with problems like these she scolds.
WHERE are they all?
-btw- Ann is old enough ( 70?) and Mikey is nearly old enough ( 48?) to recall nearly universal institutionalisation of the developmentally disabled and the mentally ill. Both should be literate enough to have read about these historically and about societal attempts to remedy problems associated with living conditions for these populations. Perhaps their reading is more biased towards material that fits their bent mindset.
BUT I do recall Mike elaborating upon the mistreatment of the mentally ill in hospitals as a way to discourage the employment of psychiatrics and psychologists in addressing these conditions.
hhu
Oh, I’ve been watching you make a fool of yourself this whole time which you would’ve known if you went back and read my comments. Either way it doesn’t matter much since I was referring to your original comments that sparked this whole mess.
Exactly what it says on the box. You’re from left field response to Dorit’s response to your idea. Let’s play back the tapes.
zebra@8
Dorit Reiss@16
zebra@22
Do you see? Do ypu see?!
While we’re at it let’s go back to your lie in #104 since it was about #22.
To quote a certain
Well, that submitted before I was done.
Should start “zebra@249” and end “To quote a certain striped animal, ‘This is your idea of a serious debate?’“
@Narad:
I like to draw, but am currently unclear about what visual characteristics might distinguish a notary public.
@ zebra
Two remarks
1 – do you believe this sorry state of affair – letting human being freeze to their death – is as is ought to be?
2 – I don’t know about your country, but in mine we have some good angels going around the street during wintertime trying to convince homeless people to reach a shelter and/or providing them with sleeping bags.
We also have a lot of people lamenting the lack of accessible care for the mentally ill.
In short, the situation you describe is everything but “normal”. It’s this way because we don’t have the resources nor perfect solutions to very complex situations.
That’s not exactly a good quality for a metaphorical yardstick.
I will go so far as to call you a very privileged guy if you don’t have to worry about losing your home or your wits. Try to put in you head that not everybody has a life as perfect as yours.
Because, you pillock, if someone whose job is to provide help to people doesn’t do his job on your hypothetical functional adult, this defaulting helper is the one who will get blamed if it turns out this functional adult was in a suicidal mood when writing his “don’t help me” letter.
In many countries, not assisting someone in need may be seen as a criminal offense.
For these reasons, a priori, a medic will do his/her best to help you, and worry about yours desiderata later.
capnkrunch,
I don’t see at all. What is the idea that I’m ‘criticizing’? Seriously, I don’t get it.
And what am I ‘lying’ about?
I referenced the NYT article (and comments), which are about EOL, not vaccinations. So how could someone misinterpret that as validating the specific concerns of AV people about vaccinations?
Beth’s anecdote was about someone being pushy WRT vaccination; I thought Beth was a regular Minion and had no reason to reject her input.
Seriously, explain what is your point about criticizing my own idea?
Helianthus,
You obviously are not clear on the beam/mote concept. The ongoing debate between me and the Minions is that we need to fix the system and deal with real issues that affect lots of people in very bad ways, instead of focusing on trivia. If you fix the system, trivia will also be fixed.
Also, you have not been reading or understanding. The treating practitioner will not be blamed for anything if the law says that the DNR is valid when notarized and witnessed. That’s the whole point, which I’ve now given multiple times, but you silly gooses keep repeating your nonsense.
I have difficulty understanding how supposedly educated, intelligent people keep repeating this mistake. Maybe they are trolling?
zebra@255
No. Dorit Reiss offered some criticism of your idea. You responded by offering support for that criticism instead of addressing it.
You said, “It is difficult to allay fears when the fears are grounded in some reality,” in response to “But remember that the anti-vaccine people express concern that their children will be force vaccinated if efforts are, for example, held in school.” Clearly referencing AV fears. Later you said “Clearly referencing the anecdotes, not saying vax fears are grounded in reality.” If you can’t understand how that is being dishonest, I don’t know how to else to explain it to you.
zebra @248:
This is earth, not htrae. Helianthus has shredded your “argument” pretty thoroughly, so I’ll leave it at that.
I just checked my state Attorney General’s website, and can find no indication that a doctor’s signature is required for a living will or other advance directives. All that is required is for the documents to be witnessed or notarized.
zebra@256
And as LW told you multiple times that is untrue. Even a will which is valid when signed and notarized can be contested on competency. A doctor is the expert witness needed to prove competency. Since there is no time to go to court and prove competency in a medical emergency it is done upfront with a DNR.
@zebra, I am very troubled that under your proposal a competent adult will be forced to get permission from the nice lady at the bank in order to execute a DNR. In fact, I am very troubled that a competent adult will be forced to get permission from two witnesses. I think executing a DNR should be like signing a check: it’s got a signature on it, so it’s valid. Making a life-and-death decision should require no more formalities than buying lunch. Are we agreed?
capnkrunch,
Let’s put this one to rest, otherwise you are in fact the one being dishonest and trolling.
Read carefully:
“The treating practitioner will not be blamed for anything
if
the law says
that the DNR is valid (a) when signed and notarized.”
Did you see the “if”?
At present, the law says that
the DNR is valid (b) when signed by a doctor.
So, if you are held harmless by the law if you don’t resuscitate in the case (b), why would you not be in case (a)?
I’ve pointed out that in case (b), the signing physician is the one subject to challenge and claims of malpractice. But in no case is the simple EMT responsible for anything other than following the law.
Now, either refute that logically or flounce off again until you feel confident enough to come back and troll some more.
And anyone is invited to answer #248. I thought that was pretty conclusive.
#259
Thanks, really.
Now can you tell us what the consequences are for medical personnel refusing to honor those because they aren’t ‘doctor’s orders’?
Man, I thought Tony the postmodernist was the most tiresome blowhard on this site….
“No. It requires a Doctor’s Signature because despite what you think, it’s very hard for a non-physician to distinguish if someone is of sound mind.” Julian Frost
Are you kidding, there was hardly a doctor alive who could even diagnose swine flu and the consequence of that was media hysteria and panic. How on earth would a doctor be a competent judge of sanity – a large proportion of them, but not all, still believe in vaccination.
zebra@263
LW said, in #201 (read carefully):
Note that a signed and notarized will can still be contested on competence. It’s reasonable to assume that would also be the case for DNRs. If the law said I needed to honor such a DNR, of course I would. Would I be thrilled about? No. The fact that it could be reasonably contested on competency (unlike a DNR signed by a doctor) opens me up to additional liability*. If I withhold resuscitation based on a DNR found to be invalid based on competency that could be negligence in the same way that withhold resuscitation based on an invalid DNR would be.**
Your argument only makes sense if we also change the law so that a signed and notarized document cannot be contested on competence. You can go ahead and make that argument if you want but I have to disagree. This would fail to protect vulnerable populations, the elderly and the terminally ill.
*Actually, it’s difficult to successfully litigate against EMTs. Most of the liability would probably fall on medical director. That doesn’t mean it’s impossible though.
**IANAL of course. Maybe LW could confirm my suspicions.
The irony, it burns.
Unfortunately the area I understand is probate (wills, will contests, guardianships, and the like). I can’t really answer about malpractice suits or torts.
capnkrunch,
” The fact that it could be reasonably contested on competency (unlike a DNR signed by a doctor)”
I just said, the DNR signed by a doctor can be challenged on competency. The doctor who signed it saying the testator is competent can be found to be incorrect by expert testimony. You know, that malpractice thing?
Did you miss that?
What exactly would EMT, hospital, or treating doctor, have done wrong in following a legal document, whether the law says a or b?
Still waiting to hear why crazy homeless people are less crazy than people who don’t want invasive medical procedures.
I’m still waiting for zebra to respond to my modest proposal to reduce the formalities of making life-or-death decision to the same formalities as buying lunch.
One could make it completely equivalent by simply requiring MedicAlert to only sell DNR jewelry if paid by check. Problem solved.
Oh…
Toldja.
LW,
A notarized document provides some protection against forgeries and coercion. Those involve someone else infringing on my autonomy. My visiting the nice bank lady with my document is an autonomous act.
And the question remains: Why is a perfectly rational decision like refusing some possible future invasive treatment treated as requiring a test of mental competence?
Is balancing risk and reward a sign of madness?
From capnkrunch #267
Precisely.
Grieving relative:”you didn’t save my dad. I will sue you!”
Medic:”but he had this slip of paper saying DNR”
GR:”He was depressive when he has it signed, He just divorced with mom.”
The change in law suggested by zebra would impact a lot of other things in our society, notably all the little things about providing assistance to someone in need.
Well, I guess the people working in suicide prevention could find another job as DNR witnesses.
“You want to jump off the bridge? Please say it again in front of my camera. Good. I cannot stop you anymore, please proceed.”
Exactly.
Generally speaking, I am very in favor of assisted suicide for the terminally ill – or more generally, of people having some choice on how they are going to leave this world.
A Dutch friend of mine told me how his old mom choose euthanasia after a stroke left her half-paralyzed (a side effect of a bronchitis resulting from a bad flu she caught from another of her children).
It was a cause defended by the late Terry Pratchett, and as an admirer of his prose and views on life, I cannot help but follow his views on this.
But there is one argument against medically-assisted suicide which I cannot refute: Peer pressure.
It could be very easy to make people feeling unwanted.
With some self-conscious people, you don’t even have to do anything, they will do it all by themselves.
@zebra
Funny comment from someone who has spent the last 3 days arguing about having DNR done at his local bank rather than with his regular physician.
There’s nothing that says “fixing the system” like asserting that all of the obvious flaws in one’s Big Picture will be adequately dealt with after the fact. In equity.
@Narad, excellent point.
@zebra, why should I have to get permission from a notary to make this decision? If I’m satisfied that I’m not under any coercion, why should some notary be able to gainsay me? Or claim I was too drunk to sign and refuse to grant permission, as you suggested above? Why is a perfectly rational decision like refusing some possible future invasive treatment treated as requiring a test of sobriety?
How’s that? Most states don’t even specify any particular form of identification for notarization, and protection against coercion is laughable.
^ And, of course, there’s no way to bribe a notary, nosirree. That’s why they make the big bucks.
Apparently being able to get a DNR at the bank will increase vaccine uptake, eliminating annual physicals will reduce the use of CAM, and prescribing ginger tea will reduce the prescription of antibiotics for viral infections. Really? Did someone mention cognitive impairment?
@Krebiozen:
You forgot that encouraging the use of acupuncture will lessen or eliminate opiate addiction.
JP,
Indeed I did.
zebra@270
Nothing. That doesn’t necessarily provide legal protection. That being said, this is a hypothetical legal situation and neither of us are legal experts so debating this point further seems useless.
Instead, I’d like to address the ethics and you nicely provided a good jumping point in #274:
It is unethical to provide a DNR to someone who is suffering a bout of depression or other uncontrolled psychiatric problem. Or someone pressured into it by family or caretakers. Or someone with a learning disability who can’t understand what he/she is signing. Or anyone who doesn’t understand what they are signing.
Krebiozen@95 (quoting a comment from the original link you provided)
Like I said before, this is a protection for the most vulnerable people in our society. For you, as a fully competent adult it doesn’t make any difference so needing a doctor’s signature might just seem like an extra hoop to jump through. But the world does not revolve around zebra.
@Krebiozen
Or that banning pharmaceutical commercials will stop people from using homeopathy.
zebra:
Did you know that major financial decisions can also be treated that way? It’s true. Contracts are signed on the assumption of mental competence; if you are found incompetent, or found to have been coerced or misled, the contract is null and void. You can’t change your will if you’re mentally imcompetent. Why are you expecting a *lower* standard of competence for matters of life and death than is expected of financial transactions?
(Note: I am aware that financial instutions and businesses are not always entirely responsible about this sort of thing, and that many will take willful advantage of a mentally incompetent person. This does not make me more willing to accept lower standards of competence for medical decisions. Quite the opposite, in fact, given the potential for abuse has already been so well demonstrated in the financial arena.)
LW,
There is no more or less reason to have a DNR notarized than there is to have a will notarized. You are simply trying to dodge the question:
What makes an advanced decision not to have some invasive procedure different from any other life-and-death decision, where there is some risk but no certainty?
Why is the standard for psych commitment so high, but not wanting CPR is considered a sign of potential lack of competence.
I await the further dodging…
^^ At least it’s next to impossible to fraudulently obtain a notary stamp, thanks to the stringent security measures that office-supply stores are justifiably famous for, backed up by the specialized training received by medical personnel in spotting fakes.
Well, at least that’s been taken care of. Now everyone can just keep stock forms on hand and wave them at the EMTs when Auntie Warbucks has a little trip-and-fall accident.
zebra:
You are (pardon the pun) dead wrong. If it can be shown that a person was not of sound mind when he/she wrote or updated a will, that will can be challenged and overturned. If a person wrote a DNR when not of sound mind and the DNR was implemented, then you can’t bring that person back to life.
If you don’t understand the difference between the two situations then I can’t help you.
capnkrunch,
You are once again just making an assertion “x is not ethical”, ipse dixit, which has two flaws (at least).
Ethics is an arbitrary set of rules. Doctors can make rules for themselves, but that doesn’t mean they are not violating my autonomy when they are following them.
But then there’s the problem that, and I repeat, we have very high standards for violating a person’s physical autonomy.
Taking a risk does not meet that standard. And getting a DNR is simply making a decision that carries some risk. So is sleeping rough when the temps are near zero.
Tell me why you have to test my competence when I want a DNR, but not when I take some other life-and-death risk. What makes it special?
“There is no more or less reason to have a DNR notarized than there is to have a will notarized.”
Why should a will be notarized? Actually it doesn’t need to be in this jurisdiction; the notary is required for the self-proving section, without which we have to produce at least one witness in order to prove the will even without a contest. So you’re okay with a DNR that just has witness signatures?
For that matter, as I mentioned, you don’t even need witnesses for a holographic will. So you’re okay with the concept of a holographic DNR?
Good. Now we can all move on to other topics.
zebra@270
God you’re dense. We test your competency because we need to test everyone’s. Your argument seems to have devolved into “it’s inconvient to me, screw everyone else.” We do it to protect, for example, someone with bipolar disorder going through a depressive phase or someone with a learning disability and a disinterested caretaker. There are certainly grey areas in ethics, taking measures to protect vulnerable populations is generally accepted as ok though.
Your continued use of this homeless argument actually seems to hurt your position. The way homeless are treated is terrible. The fact that we don’t help those who are mentally ill and can’t help themselves is a huge failing in our society. We need more protections for them, not less.
Leaving aside the fact that this is a non sequitur, I eagerly await Z.’s exposition of his knowledge of how getting admitted to and discharged from mental hospitals (a state-by-state matter) works in practice.
Since ethics are so arbitrary, I hereby declare that “zebra’s physical autonomy is unimportant.” to be added to the arbitrary set of rules. I also add “justthestats’s authority to change the rules is permanent, preeminent and unquestionable, as is this rule.” to the set.
This rule change can be referred to as the “Everyone Loves To Violate zebra’s Physical Autonomy Act (2015)”
Narad@293
Not to mention, “…but not wanting CPR is considered a sign of potential lack of competence,” is just patently untrue.
zebra, as I keep saying, we don’t do this because we question your competence, it is to ensure those who are incompetent (independent of their desire for a DNR) are not taken advantage of. You’ve revealed yourself to be not only dishonest but incredibly selfish and narcissistic as well.
capnkrunch
Why do I is a figure of speech– ‘why does anybody’.
The question is about why DNR rather than sleeping rough, or climbing Everest, or smoking cigarettes, or drinking, or buying a gun when you are bipolar?
I calculate that having a DNR is highly unlikely to reduce my life expectancy, at least as I want to live life. That’s a risk I’m willing to take, and it isn’t indicative of any mental illness.
So, as I clearly indicated, for me, the homeless mentally ill = beam. But somehow, we still maintain that high standard for psych commitment, and don’t help them.
Why then is the standard so low for allowing doctors to assault my physical autonomy? What makes DNR special?
Let’s make DNRs a public health matter, carried out by the government. When the appropriate age comes, you go to the notary on designated days and have it done, for free.
If you want to opt out, you go there and opt out, and deal with the later consequences. But everyone is treated equally, and it is a community activity.
And that answers my previous question: Z. has exactly zero idea of how the mental-health system works.
Things we can add to the list of things zebra is ignorant/arrogant about: the situation of the mentally ill. The reason so many people with mental illness are homeless is not because we don’t have roving bands of psychiatrists rounding them up and having them involuntarily committed, genius, it’s because there aren’t enough beds in inpatient facilities. It’s all quite a bit more complicated than you seem to realize, but the problem is basically one of the (I’m hoping) unanticipated consequences of deinstitutionalization.
And, as suspected, he’s conflating DNRs and advance directives.
That’s an easy one. (1.) Tell the judge that you are sorry you didn’t remove the marlbourogh from your lips before telling the state trooper to kiss your phallis studded with diffuse-orgone-Arcturus-back-light to get in and then (2.) have your indian friend throw the marble water fountain fixture out the window to get out… No, wait. It is probably easier to just tell the cop to “tell the nearest Threat Fusion Center that I said “911 was an inside job” while being booked and biometrically scanned (gone are the days of a simple mug shot).
Inverse-tadger-tounging Louise Fletcher during the internment is totally a matter of violating a competent DNR order. Though, at this stage of the game, it is completely, nonstimulatingly irrelevant.
@zebra, God you’re dense.
Unlike climbing Mount Everest, taking up smoking, going sky-diving, or whatever other examples you want to bring up, executing a DNR is giving an order to medical personnel to do something (let you die) that they would not otherwise be permitted to do. Is that clear? It is a different kind of act.
Since you haven’t responded to my modest proposal for eliminating all formalities associated with executing a DNR, it seems you accept that there is some need for formalities beyond a signature.
You vociferously object to the existing formalities established by your legislature which has to balance protection of personal autonomy against protection of the vulnerable from being taken advantage of. So, as I have said repeatedly, take it up with your legislator.
Just don’t seek medical attention and don’t allow others to seek it on your behalf, and your personal autonomy will be fully protected and you won’t have to go through any formalities at all.
jp,
There are plenty of beds. The homeless can’t pay for them, because, well…you know, they are… mentally ill, and can’t work.
But it is also true, as I know anecdotally in at least a couple of cases, and more broadly from reading, that some people just make that choice, because, you know, they are…mentally ill. And they can’t be forced to undergo treatment.
Whereas unconscious people can be forced to undergo treatment. Unless they have a doctor’s permission not to.
So maybe you are the ignorant one on this?
Holy fυck. This is a mind-boggling level of stupidity regarding involuntary commitment (which private hospitals won’t even touch, in my experience).
Also, no, there are not “plenty of beds,” you posturing shіtwit.
I guess we can add “involuntary” to the list of common English words which zebra does not understand.
because there aren’t enough beds in inpatient facilities
Hence the psychiatric breakthrough known as Greyhound Therapy.
As well as the reason for the 1970s reforms in mental-health law, which preceded deinstitutionalization.
Just to follow up on the wave of reforms:
Lower standards for involuntary commitment led to abuses, including personally motivated ones.
Lower standards for DNR open the door to the same thing.
This “argument” doesn’t even make any sense. CPR isn’t the same thing as being locked in a hole to rot.
Also, no, there are not “plenty of beds,”
No matter, the gaps are filled by the prison system, in which neither over-crowding nor involuntary confinement are concerns.
^ Moreover, since Z. has been playing fast and loose with the DNR–advance directive distinction (“somehow, an otherwise apparently functional adult refusing to be subjected to some invasive procedure in the future is deemed ‘potentially not competent’ a priori,” in which he also includes a blanket prognostication about the behavior of notaries), allow me to specify CPR for whom. I will use Wisconsin’s definition:
Zebra, really. “Plenty of beds” — no. Not enough, not even close to enough.
http://homelesshub.ca/sites/default/files/2.3%20CPHI%20Mental%20Health%20Mental%20Illness%20and%20Homelessness.pdf
krebiozen @#241.
Thanks. Yes, that was the disorder I had in mind. And it’s fascinating that it worked. I guess I’m a little surprised that it did. But if it did, I don’t think it’s barbaric at all..
That was not the only answer provided. For example:
And:
Furthermore:
That’s not even right. I don’t recall seeing that question arise. But fwiw:
It’s a medical order because it’s an order (“an authoritative direction or instruction; command; mandate”) and because it’s medical (“of or relating to the science of medicine, or to the treatment of illness and injuries”).
And still yet furthermore:
I see.
Is an apparently functional adult who gets asked to show the train conductor a ticket being deemed “potentially a hobo” a priori, would you say?
Or are your paranoid delusions of persecution by authority limited to the medical sphere?
Oh my god. Every part of that is wrong and offensive.
But just to pick one at random:
Most homeless people are not mentally ill.
There’s a little more to it than that “some people just make that choice.” But I’m not surprised it went over your head.
In your bleak, sad little fantasies.
In reality, people can refuse emergency medical treatment by making their wish to do so clear to a doctor, who then takes effective action to ensure that they’re carried out.
But if that’s not good enough for you, you don’t have to just stand around complaining that you’re not being spoon-fed autonomy and burped afterwards. The choices are nearly limitless. You can always go deep into the woods on the coldest evening of the year to die alone, like a Robert Frost poem without the last stanza, for example.
Suit yourself.
.
So maybe you are the ignorant one on this?
WRT the latter: It isn’t, you fool.
Also, FYI:
The standard for involuntary psychiatric hospitalization is not all that high. (That would be the 72-hour hold I mentioned earlier.)
The standard for involuntary psychiatric commitment might or might not be. It varies by jurisdiction.
zebra@296
So you’re saying that since we don’t adequately provide help to mentally I’ll homeless, we shouldn’t provide protections for them in other places either? This is the same appeal to bigger problems you used in the homeopathy thread. Only this time instead of saying we should focus on fixing on problem over another you’re actually saying we should unfix something (assessing compentency to protect incompetent people from being taken advantage of) because we haven’t fixed a bigger problem first.
What is it you’re hung up on? Do you not recognize how assessing competency protects those who are vulnerable from being taken advantage of? Or is it that you understand but think it’s not important because you think it infringes on your automony?
zebra@296
Really. I must’ve missed it. Your argument seemed to be that we don’t help the homeless so we shouldn’t protect the incompetent from unfair DNRs. Never once did you say we should be helping the homeless. In fact, overall you come off as extremely callous and self centered. Shall we review?
@249
@270
@290
And getting a DNR is simply making a decision that carries some risk. So is sleeping rough when the temps are near zero.
I am puzzled by the claim that homeless people made a decision to be homeless.
It was not a decision for me. Luckily it was not for too long and it was in a temperate climate.
I know this may be a shock to zebra, but just having a psychiatric diagnosis is not grounds to be involuntarily held, let alone committed. I should know, I have like three or four. You have to be an immediate danger to yourself or others, and there have to be no less restrictive options available. And that is for a hold.
Funny thing about my general job-having and PhD-getting tendencies.
Why does it matter? I’ve already arbitrarily declared your physical autonomy, whatever that is, to be unimportant, so you should be grateful there is any barrier at all. Why are you still complaining? That seems dangerously close to questioning my authority to arbitrarily set the rules, which automatically makes you an unethical person, with all the consequences that entails. This is your only warning.
herr doktor bimler@319
zebra’s mind is so powerful he can create houses at will, so he could only possibly be homeless by choice. Try to see it from his perspective; it’s hard for him to comprehend the plight of mere mortals.
jp, 320
I know this may be a shock to zebra, but just having a psychiatric diagnosis is not grounds to be involuntarily held, let alone committed.
?
I’m the one that’s been saying that the standard is very high to violate a person’s physical autonomy. Multiple times.
zebra:
Two scenarios:
A DNR is executed when the patient was mentally ill or coerced when it was compiled.
A patient has a DNR but due to a mix up the patient is resuscitated.
What would be a greater violation of autonomy? The latter, because you can’t bring the dead back to life. That is why the conditions to get a DNR are so stringent.
I see it’s “lets try to distract from the point we can’t answer by cherrypicking quotes and changing the subject” time. So let’s summarize and tie the nuanced threads together for those who can’t work it out (apparently everyone here).
I suggested that
Orac’s claim that equating vaccination to bodily violation was unfounded because “one can always refuse treatment”
did not take into account reasonable fears about “the system” not always (de facto or de jure) fully respecting an individual’s desires.
I also suggested how I thought the project of vaccination should be framed. I think it should be a public health matter, meaning that its purpose is to protect the population in general, as opposed to protecting individuals. Why?
Because the correct answer to “how come society can force me (or my child) to get vaccinated?” is “to protect others”. Why?
Because we have very high standards for violating an individual’s physical autonomy. Because we do not intervene when a mentally ill person simply puts himself at risk, we only do so when there is perceived imminent danger. If that is the case for someone who is actually mentally ill, then you have no argument with respect to refusing vaccination or future invasive medical treatment.
So all the hand-wringing, oh the humanity, think of the children, arguments that you want to make just don’t hold up. They might be effective propaganda in some cases, but they aren’t rationally consistent with how our USA society actually works. The vaxers have a rational argument about personal autonomy, and “but woo” doesn’t answer it.
zebra, here’s some advice. Ethics is far more complicated than “Freedom good! Coercion bad!” If you can’t understand that, don’t comment here.
@zebra Excellent points you have them on the ropes.
“body blow, body blow.”
I would like to know the answer to those questions too.
zebra,
The point of the whole mental illness discussion was to point out that you have yet again blundered into a subject about which you are just blatantly and completely f*cking ignorant, as copiously evinced by your statements like “there are plenty of beds,” “the mentally ill can’t work,” etc., etc.
Here’s another thing you’re apparently too dumb and full of yourself to realize: having a diagnosed mental illness in the psychiatric sense is not the same thing as being non compos mentis in the legal sense. If you are in the throes of the acute phase of a particularly bad episode, you might be considered legally incompetent to make your own decisions, but even that is not a guarantee. There is nothing about the mentally ill that entitles you to point at them and say, “Look! We even let those people make their own decisions!”
In fact, you seem generally dim when it comes to any knowledge of the law at all. A DNR is a legal document about a life-and-death matter, dimwit. I do not need a legal document to get a haircut, or move to a different city, or whatever. As a society, we have certain standards when it comes to legal documents. A DNR requires a physician’s signature. I can see all kinds of practical reasons for this, like the fact that a decision of the magnitude of a DNR should be based on informed consent about one’s condition and chances of survival/quality of life after CPR; in general, I would imagine that a physician would do a better job of providing information of that nature than Joe Average off the street.
Oh hey, look, zebra! You’ve got an admirer in THEO! Well f*cking done.
So this whole tedious digression was because Orac said “always”?
Okay, let me take the liberty of rephrasing:
Equating vaccination to bodily violation was unfounded because one has the right to refuse treatment. A competent adult can exercise this right though we acknowledge that, because medicine is administered by human beings and human beings are regrettably fallible, sometimes that exercise is not honored through error or, on rare occasions, through malice. We have an entire court system devoted to redressing violations of rights in such cases. A person who is incompetent to exercise that right, whether through infancy, injury, disease, mental illness, etc., retains the right to refuse but, because he or she actually cannot exercise it, a substitute decision-maker will exercise it on his or her behalf. There are certain laws, based on commonly-held societal values, which the substitute decision-maker must follow. Because we value personal autonomy, there are provisions in law (which may vary from State to State) allowing a competent adult to provide advance directives to the substitute decision-maker. These laws are written by legislators who must balance the right of a competent person to make such directives with the right of a vulnerable person not to be coerced or deceived (whether by another human being or by mental illness or chemical abuse, etc.) into making a directive which does not in fact reflect his or her desires. These laws may therefore seem overly onerous to some people, and inadequate safeguards to others.
Happy now?
Note that provisions for advance directives by an adult are irrelevant to the case of a child.
zebra@325
So you’ve gone full nutso now, huh? This is the same kind of statement as the one everyone originally had a problem with. And I’d note that by saying this you’ve pretty much admitted you were lying in #104 when you said
Back to your current statement. There’s no truth there. AVers are still free to choose not to vaccinate their kids. No one is going to break down their doors and forcibly vaccinate their children. However, that does not mean they have freedom from consequences of that choice. With rights come responsibilities. They are exercising their rights which they are and will always be free to do. They are also shirking their responsibilities which has consequences; in this case no public schooling.
Because I don’t wish to disrupt Orac’s latest thread…
Ms Gamondes (AoA) has presented us with another opportunity for merriment as well as generally proclaimed derision by posting further free associated prose with a big DIFFERENCE:
she includes a synopsis of her earlier episodes that neatly
( heh) summarises her various floating points of verbal conglomeration accompanied by similarly overworked and congealed ‘artwork’. It is in effect a *guide* to her most recent meandering bs.
I’m sure it will be declared brilliant beyond measure by her fans. And bollux by everyone else.
BUT there’s another facet in this gem: those visual images! **
Todays illustration lacks the distracting overwrought cut and paste miasmic quality ( which nicely complements her scavenger hunt-style writing technique) of her earlier images BUT presents with CLARITY ( of all things!) her thesis:
Vaccines are Big OIL!
How could we have missed something so obvious?***
AND it’s *blue* yet!
At any rate, I can note that because she sees a vague visual resemblence between an oil rig and a hypodermic .. well, there must be a connection! And if you can see it, it must be there!
Freud, as you may know, wrote about how dreams and primary process thought incorporated shifting images unrestrained by the constraints of reality …a wish is reality!
And here it is, illustrated, for our perusal.
** for the uninitiated, prior to my studies in the social sciences, I studied art ( amongst other things) and worked in advertising before realising the error of my ways and coming over from the darkside.
*** or that African map as a uterus? Plain as day!
@zebra
What you seem to be missing despite my humorous attempts to illustrate it is that you lost bigtime when you asserted that ethics are arbitrary. If ethics are arbitrary, not violating your personal autonomy might be something you value, but it has no privileged status over any other arbitrary rule anyone else might prioritize.
332 justthestats,
OK, sorry, I didn’t get what you were trying to say. I agree with you, except that I don’t see how I ‘lose’.
To avoid definition issues: I think of “ethics” as something that applies within a group or organization, like doctor’s ethics–clearly defined rules of behavior. And arbitrary means that they are derived from some arbitrary original purpose or principle, not “random” in detail.
Then there’s the term “morality”.
But in this case I thought it is clear I’m talking about existing nominal societal values.
My illustration, with apologies to JP, is exactly that even when we see the motivation as delusional, we don’t interfere with personal physical autonomy unless there is an imminent threat of harm, not simply risk.
I said that coincides with my preference, I didn’t say my preference was The Word Of God.
@ JP
So true.
zebra displays an ignorance of real life which is quite amusing.
By example, his argument for the bank teller being able to assess his customer fitness is simply “I’m not drooling and incoherent”.
By this measure, Stephen Hawking wouldn’t be allowed to make a single decision. Writing scientific books? Don’t even think about it.
On the other hand, I had a schizophrenic friend. He had troubles finding the right meds, needed a tight daily schedule to be planned, and his bouts of paranoia eventually wrecked his marriage and his social life.
But apart from this, he was a functional adult, and zebra’s bank clerk wouldn’t think twice about letting him sign things.
I have lost track of him and his estranged family. I would be very afraid of letting him take decisions of life and death unsupervised.
But he didn’t say that. What he said was:
Which is capable of being read to mean that one can always refuse treatment, if you go out of your way to impose that meaning on it without regard to context or common sense.
But it’s not, strictly speaking, what it means.
Please see above.
I don’t know.
Because that’s not the correct answer. The correct answer is:
Society can’t force you or your child to get vaccinated. You are perfectly free to forego vaccination. The decision to do so is not without consequences. But nobody’s are. And nobody has a right for them to be. Because it’s a stone impossibility, among other things.
There are no forced vaccinations. At all. Whatsoever.
People have a very broad and capacious right to refuse medical treatment, contingent on reasonable factors and circumstances.
So the other problems and errors in there are irrelevant.
@zebra
Let me try to summarize your points because I think we’ve gotten way off track. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
1. AVers fear that patient automony will be violated is justified. In this case, the concern is that their children will be vaccinated without their consent.
2. Community vaccination programs will allay those fears. Something along the lines of everyone goes to school a few times a year and either brings their kids to be vaccinated or doesn’t bring their kids and opts out.
As I understand it everything else (the EOL care, the homeless issue, etc) is offered as support for these two underlying concepts. Is this an accurate interpretation of what you have been trying to say? Again if not please correct me.
capnkrunch,
Let me know specifically what you don’t understand here:
“I see it’s “lets try to distract from the point we can’t answer by cherrypicking quotes and changing the subject” time. So let’s summarize and tie the nuanced threads together for those who can’t work it out (apparently everyone here).
I suggested that
Orac’s claim that equating vaccination to bodily violation was unfounded because ‘one can always refuse treatment’
did not take into account reasonable fears about “the system” not always (de facto or de jure) fully respecting an individual’s desires.
I also suggested how I thought the project of vaccination should be framed. I think it should be a public health matter, meaning that its purpose is to protect the population in general, as opposed to protecting individuals. Why?
Because the correct answer to “how come society can force me (or my child) to get vaccinated?” is “to protect others”. Why?
Because we have very high standards for violating an individual’s physical autonomy. Because we do not intervene when a mentally ill person simply puts himself at risk, we only do so when there is perceived imminent danger. If that is the case for someone who is actually mentally ill, then you have no argument with respect to refusing vaccination or future invasive medical treatment.
So all the hand-wringing, oh the humanity, think of the children, arguments that you want to make just don’t hold up. They might be effective propaganda in some cases, but they aren’t rationally consistent with how our USA society actually works. The vaxers have a rational argument about personal autonomy, and “but woo” doesn’t answer it.”
If he was in the middle of an episode and wanted a DNR because he was worried that a microchip might be implanted in his body during CPR or something, sure. But if we’re just talking day-to-day absentmindedness about medications (I mean, my advisor takes a few medications and has one of those day-of-the week pillboxes) or general eccentricity, I don’t see why that would preclude self-determination about one’s own life. And thank G-d for that, considering that I’m a bit absentminded and eccentric myself.
OTOH, there have been times when I was not entirely “in my right mind” about things like, say, wanting to be dead in an immediate sense. Frightening but true. Even so, I’ve always passed every MMSE I’ve been given and probably would not be declared incompetent to make medical decisions by a physician based on the criteria I was just looking at. BUT there have been times when I probably could have been compelled to undergo psychiatric treatment involuntarily if I hadn’t been with it enough to know that it’s always easier to just do it “voluntarily.”
It’s complicated, and I’d say I’m more comfortable with erring slightly on the side of self-determination, but we also need protections in place for those who truly are incapable of making medical decisions, like people with severe dementia, etc. Otherwise you could have someone pressuring granny into signing a DNR or an advance directive based on certain ulterior motives, like anticipation of a nice inheritance, say.
@capnkrunch:
I’m pretty sure it all actually boils down to this: zebra’s smarter than everyone else, and he has a “better solution” to any problem imaginable that nobody else has ever thought of. If anybody calls him out on blatant ignorance or misrepresentation of facts, he changes the subject or makes baseless accusations of “cognitive impairment” or something.
Let’s not forget his debut where he was lecturing everyone about “physics woo” and accusing Krebiozen of the gambler’s fallacy or something, all the while dripping with completely unfounded condescension.
zebra@337
I read your post. I wanted to simplify it because I think there’s a lot of extraneous information and everytime I don’t address yiur entire post you’ve accused me of cherry-picking despite the fact that the rest of the post in no way negated what I said about the quoted part. I believe that your quoted post pretty much boils down to the 2 points I suggested above. For 1 the relevant parts are:
and for point 2
We need to trace this back to #8 to see what you think making it a public health matter actually entails.
I think that I pretty accurately summarized what you are saying with:
Addendum to point 2: Community vaccination programs will allay those fears and remove the need for public school mandates.
The only caveat being that you never explicitly stated that your idea solve the problems mentioned in point 2 but I think it was strongly implied.
1. School mandates are not forced vaccination. Removing non-medical exemptions does not mean thugs are going to kick down their doors and forcibly vaccinate their kids. It does mean that if they want to take advantage of public schooling they have a responsibility to vaccinate their children. They are free to choose not. They are even free to choose to stay entirely away from doctors and their scary needles. But in doing so their are shirking their responsibility and the consequence of that is no public school.
2. Free community immunization at schools is a great idea. Actually, I’m all for it. It does not, however, address the issues you think it does. AVers are terrified of the government forcing them to vaccinate their children. If there is a mass immunization program that takes place at school and is paid for by the government that is quite a bit more scary than it being done at a private doctor’s office. And, since they still have the opportunity to opt and attend public school anyways you have failed to protect the general population which, in your own words, is what your idea is all about in the first place.
zebra,
At #325 you wrote:
Orac wrote no such thing. This isn’t the first time you have invented a quotation, attributed it to someone and then argued with the strawman you have constructed. This is dishonest, as I have pointed out to you before.
Krebiozen,
And what did I write at 337?
As I’ve pointed out to you before, it’s childish and petty to purposely misunderstand a typo where I use ” instead of ‘.
JP, two points:
1) Someone is going to be ‘the smartest person in the room’, but I don’t think “smart” is a valid metric; I go along with the concept of different kinds of intelligence.
When sadmar was around, I certainly didn’t think I was the top dog in the argumentation department. However, at the moment, I think I’m darn good at challenging people to get outside their comfort zone.
2) The reference you provided at 338 is great. You’re welcome.
Since it seems to be open mic night, I want to briefly comment on assisted suicide. Though I don’t like the the thought of physician assisted suicide**, I can find no particular reason not to have some other profession dedicated to helping people end their lives quickly and painlessly, preferably without making too big a mess, scaring passersby, or engaging in criminal trespass. Such services should be available to any person capable of signing a contract, with only sufficient safeguards to confirm the person’s identity and ensure s/he is not acting under threat or duress.
** When my mother gets her knee replaced, I want the doctor to be utterly clear on his/her success criteria. The doctor should not be thinking, “hmmm… I could work really hard on this and have her live and walk, or I could get out of here in time for golf.”
@ JP
Oh, I would agree.
I didn’t want to imply that I would have wanted my friend put under a tight leash.
I actually lost contact because I moved away in a different city. Last I heard of him from a common friend, just before his marriage broke,.either he was trying to deal with some serious family issue, or he was spiraling into a serious paranoid phase (or something close, IANAD).
I wish there has been someone to magically tell me which it was. Should we have believed him and said “that’s really bad, let me introduce you to a good lawyer I know”, or should we have said “please go back on your meds”?
That’s why I’m a bit miffed with zebra’s simple views.
capnkrunch:
“I think that I pretty accurately summarized what you are saying ”
I don’t. I think you are trying to get me to say something so you can go back through the comments and point out “but you used this word here and that word there, and that makes you a liar”.
I also think that you may have difficulty reasoning at an abstract level– you keep making up these narratives about what the AVers think and what I think they think and so on, and how they will respond to your version of what I say should be done.
If you disagree with something I said at 337, specifically, tell me what it is. I’m nowhere near as good as sadmar, but what I said is what I mean.
He did not say that. But a reasonable fear has to be based in reason.
You have identified a circumstance in which an individual’s right to refuse medical treatment might not be respected — ie, when the individual’s life is at stake and the validity of his or her wish to end it isn’t known and/or knowable.
It’s not reasonable to fear that forced vaccination is imminent because (a) that circumstance exists; and (b) a bill to eliminate personal-belief exemptions is being proposed.
The latter, all by itself, should be sufficient to allay those fears, from a reason-based perspective.
It practically couldn’t be any clearer that the issue is not about who decides whether children should be vaccinated and why but about who decides children should attend public school and why.
Physical autonomy simply doesn’t enter into it. It’s unreasonable to insist that it does.
Society can’t force you (or your child) to get vaccinated.
So there is no correct answer to that question. It’s unreasonable to ask it.
Right. That’s why there’s not forced vaccination. That’s why nobody is contemplating forced vaccination. And that’s why it’s not reasonable to fear forced vaccination.
With respect to refusing vaccination, true. But it’s you who have no argument. Because that’s not a reasonable fear.
I don’t know what you mean by “future invasive medical treatment.”
But it’s not reasonable to fear that your wish not to be resuscitated will be disrespected, if you take reasonable steps to ensure that it’s followed.
Straw.
Why?
Are there no mentally ill homeless demonstrating that our USA society is one in which we only intervene when there’s perceived imminent danger.where they live?
Are they incapable of grasping that honoring a DNR also involves a perceived imminent danger?
Or that in both cases, that perceived imminent danger is that someone’s life is at immediate risk?
Or that none of that applies to vaccination?
Or what?
zebra’s argument, shorter version:
We have very high standards for violating physical autonomy, because: Mentally ill homeless.
We have reason to question the standards for violating physical autonomy, because: POLSTs.
It’s therefore reasonable to fear a political and practical impossibility that nobody supports, is proposing, or has any interest in proposing, even though there’s not the least threat of it coming to pass — ie, forced vaccination.
zebra,
A typo? What difference does it make whether you intended single or double quotation marks? Both are used to denote a direct quotation* and never to denote an indirect quotation i.e. a description (or misinterpretation, to be more accurate) of what someone said, as you used them at #337. As I understand it in US English single quotation marks are only used for quotations nested inside double quotation marks.
What is childish and petty is making up your own meaning for words, and now punctuation marks, and arguing with people when they point out you are mistaken.
* They can also be used to denote irony, unusual usage, to refer to a word rather than its meaning, for a gloss in linguistics, for the titles of artistic works and for nicknames and false titles, none of which could possibly apply to the way you used them.
Says the person who failed to notice that (at the abstract level), the only circumstance under which the state ever permits the autonomous personal choice to refuse medical treatment to be secondary to anything is:
When there’s a real, immediate threat to life, absent real, immediate intervention.
Which, by definition, cannot apply to preventive care. Such as immunization.
It’s therefore unreasonable to fear that it will.
That’s one hell of a way to try to evade having emitted a stream of blindingly stupid remarks about the mental-health system that didn’t even serve to demonstrate the injustice of your precious DNR time-waster.
Z. is apparently under the impression that his internal version of the use–mention distinction should be universally understandable as extending to sentences versus propositions.
zebra@346
Ok.
@337
You were the one who brought up the homeless issue in support of why we should not require proofof competency for a DNR. Later you changed your position and claimedbyou had said homeless was the “beam” and what we need to fix it. I quoted every time you brought up homelessness to show that you never even came close to saying that. Go back and read the posts. There’s no additional parts of any of those comments that changes what you said.
I’m just going to quote myself on this one:
Next:
And again, let’s go back to your plan in #8:
In general, I think this is a good idea. However, because parents can still opt out and send there kids to school it fails to “protect the general population.” It fails to address the issue of low vaccine uptake that SB277 is designed to correct.
No one can force you to do anything. But there are consequences for your actions. Freedom does not mean freedom from consequences.
Again, no one is forcibly vaccinating your children. If you want your child to attend public you have some responsibilities to ulfill. One of them is immunization because it protects not only your child but his classmates as well. Don’t want to fulfill your responsibilities? That’s certainly your choice but the consequence is you don’t get to take advantage of public education.
See this is why I was trying to simplify things. Not to set a trap but because you say the same thing in different ways so I end up just repeating myself. This is not a rational argument and no one has ever answered it with “but woo.” I’ve explained why twice already just in this post.
@343
Get over yourself. You’ve made a fool of yourself more times than I can count just in this one thread.
So let’s summarize and tie the nuanced threads together for those who can’t work it out (apparently everyone here).
When everyone disagrees with you, it doesn’t necessarily follow that you’re Galileo. Sometimes it means that you’re Lord Kelvin.
One might note that Z.’s retconning in #337 omits the original lever arm, “If you want to opt out, you go [to the school building] and opt out, and deal with the later consequences. But everyone is treated equally, and it is a community activity.”
This of course is utterly absurd from a practical standpoint, not least because of the need for schools to assume, wholesale, the role of middleman in student–physician information control (it has to come downstream from the physician and then the upstream requires a FERPA waiver).
Instead, one finds this:
Has a massive turnip spill blocked off the Clue Highway?
Narad@355
Oh he was changing things long before #337. In #33 he said
Note how it changed from a community thing to now being entirely optional. As I said back then, it’s really no different from the current model. Either way, if you choose not to vaccinate all you need to do is fill out some paperwork and file it with the school. Only difference is in the current system you can fill it out at home whereas in zebra’s you need to go into the office to fill it out.
Allow me to rephrase “Note how it changed from a community thing to now being entirely optional,” to “Note how it changed from something where everyone goes and you either bring you kid to be vaccinated or you don’t and opt out to everyone who wants their kids vaccinated goes and those who don’t go separately ‘at some point.'”
Which works solely to the extent that Z. gets to make himself the population most vulnerable to abuse of the system in the latter case, not that he qualifies for one in the first place.
#353 capnkrunch,
So, can you tell me what you disagree with in 337?
That doesn’t involve talking about anything but the statements in 337.
That also means not cherrypicking (taking out of context) phrases or sentences, but explaining why you think a complete thought is wrong. If I say xxx because yyy, that’s a complete thought. You would say, ‘no, yyy doesn’t support xxx, or ‘yyy isn’t true’, or something like that.
It’s the thought that counts.
zebra@359
How obtuse can you be?
This is what I disagree. This is what I’ve always disagreed with from back in
#22 when you said
These fears are absolutely not grounded in reality. There is no forced vaccination. There is a requirement to be vaccinated if you want to attend public school. I really, honestly can not make it any more simple. If you can’t understand the difference e between this and forced vaccinatin
F***ing submit button.
If you can’t understand the difference between that and forced vaccination you are either incomprehensibly stupid or an incredibly obnoxious troll. Honestly I think there’s ample evidence demonstrating that you are both.
Krebiozen,
I’ve been using single quotes to indicate a (short) paraphrase or imagined language for decades and I’ve never had anyone misunderstand it (until now.) Maybe it’s a hip internet thing that doesn’t require formalization, like using “oxymoronic” to describe something contradictory– although Wikipedia attributes that to W. F. Buckley. You really need to get with the modern era.
If I had used no quotation marks, I expect you would still have made some equally outraged comment that ‘Orac never said that’. (See how I used the single quotes there?)
And yes, that was absolutely a personal attack. I made the same point 4 times in #353 and you ignored completely.
That’s either ignorance or trolling no matter how you slice it.
360 capnkrunch,
See, you are simply trying to go back to your already refuted claim that I was talking about vaccination, when I was actually talking about the system not necessarily honoring one’s wishes, de facto or de jure, and I used EOL issues as an example.
If you were interested in a productive dialogue, you would stick to my sentence in the comment that I have designated as a clear statement of my position. But, since you have no refutation of what I say there, you are trying to change the subject to cherrypicking words from previous comments.
There is a rational argument about autonomy. I’ve made it. If AVers use it to invoke a slippery slope, that doesn’t make it any less a rational argument about autonomy.
Again, if you could actually refute the argument, you would have.
Which, of course, is defined by Z.’s internal rules (and apparent omniscience). Because it’s “a hip internet thing,” or something, which naturally points straight at Z.
Oh, wait.
Then again, one might observe that in neither case was the affectation necessary in the slightest. Maybe that’s the “hip” part.
You know, if I were trying to argue, “It is difficult to allay fears [of antivax parents that children would be forcibly vaccinated] when the fears are grounded in some reality”, I would bring up documented cases where attempts really were made to treat children against the wishes of their parents, with the enthusiastic support of the medical profession in the person of Orac. I wouldn’t even have to look outside the archives of this blog. We could then have an interesting discussion of the difference between cancer and VPDs, with a possible excursion into whether a child should be receive the rabies vaccine if bitten by a rabid animal, whether the parents consent to the vaccine or not …
I imagine an interesting conversation sparked by that and then look at the tedium of the past few days. Sigh.
@ LW:
Oh, I know.
Actually we could discuss how those who advocate for parental rights *uber alles* perhaps reflect an antiquated notion- not of this day and age- wherein children were thought of appendages of their parents with little or no rights of their own rather than as individuals. More as parcels of property than as human beings.
Interestingly one of my profs ended his series of lectures on child development with a short history of the development of the *concept* of the child itself, tracing through earlier ideas of the child as a heathen ( in need of the Word), a miniature adult ( in need of a job and discipline) or a child of Nature, pure and free, entire unto itself- not to be fooled with by over- socialised- and lost- moderns.. That last one was Rousseau -btw-( not the artist, the writer).
He outlined how the treatment of children as students, patients, workers or members of Society at large corresponds to whatever concept is most prevalent in their era: think of how earlier religious teachers sought to banish the Devil from unruly children or how Dickens endeavored to sympathetically portray the fate of poor, working children. Indeed would the State ever intervene in behalf of abused, mistreated, medically neglected or overworked minors in those times?
Thus Orac describes something modern: children have rights and parents can misuse them and need to answer to the government. Perhaps most people today can agree on this, it’s only a few self-centred miscreants who go overboard and usurp their own children’s rights to suit their own needs.
zebra,
That’s not what ‘cherrypicking’ means, it refers to selectively choosing evidence that supports a position while ignoring evidence that does not, nothing to do with quoting out of context.
Perhaps that says more about the people you have been attempting to communicate with previously than it does about your abuse of English.
I suspect that’s a novel excuse for ignorance of the English language, which is ironic given your propensity for accusing others of being poorly educated, but I’m always willing to learn. Can you give an example of someone other than yourself doing this “hip internet thing” of making something up, putting quotation marks around it and attributing it to someone?
I’m a director of a digital media company, taking a break from coding an Android app for mobile devices to write this. Is that “with the modern era” enough for you?
Probably, since as others have pointed out, what you wrote ( “one can always refuse treatment”) is not even an approximate paraphrase of what Orac wrote (“every adult has the right to refuse any medical intervention and no one—I mean, no one—is questioning that”).
Yup, wrongly, again, assuming you are in the US.
Ann had already addressed the accuracy of the paraphrase @335, but Z. apparently couldn’t be bothered to deal with it at the time. Then again, from Z’s comment 208 (“very long and not to the point”), one might infer that she’s in the “filibuster” penalty box.
Of course, everything must now depend on Retcon #337. The pseudo-Socratic construction proceeds from the bottom up, but I’m not going to bother inverting it at the moment. As Dorit originally pointed out, school vaccination clinics are the worst place to try to allay parent’s “autonomy” fears. Anyone who’s perused AoA or MDC is familiar with the theme of keeping one’s kids at home on days when such events are taking place.
Thus, the original brilliant idea was to make people go to such events in order to ensure that their children weren’t vaccinated. In addition to the analogies I’ve already offered, it’s like having to go to the polls in order not to vote.
“Results might be interesting; we [sic] could do a study on compliance.”
It is perfectly possible to make a case against requiring vaccination based on bodily autonomy, and this would not necessarily be a woo-based case. People can, and do, argue that they don’t want to have their children vaccinated just because they don’t want to have their children vaccinated.
To counter, one would point out that the state has an interest in public health; that having large numbers of unvaccinated people congregating in places such as public schools encourages the spread of diseases which can be dangerous; and that this may be sufficient reason to legislate that people participating in certain activities (such as attending public schools, or travelling to certain countries where certain diseases are endemic) are vaccinated against some number of diseases. One might also mention that those who could vaccinate but refuse to are freeloading on those who took the very small (but measurable) risks associated with vaccination, while increasing the risk of spreading disease in the community as a whole.
Naturally, some will resort to the age old argument of “I don’t wanna get a shot!!! You can’t make me!!!” As things stand now, they can choose not to participate in those activities which require said shot.
OK. How are medical ethics derived from some arbitrary original purpose?
They’re plainly both systematic and reasoned. I mean, you can argue with the reasoning. But you can’t say they’re not the product of it.
Because it couldn’t be one.
IIRC, it wasn’t too unusual on Usenet to use double quotes to denote string literals and single quotes for, e.g., token values, but mere paraphrase is preposterous, given that any such construction can be rewritten as a that-phrase.
Precisely; it’s all been an onanistic display. With searing, ironic projection:
Thrilled to have the honor and privilege of being there, too.
It seems to be worth noting yet again that Z.’s tedious repetition of variants on “but woo” is simply a self-serving caricature that demonstrates – again, yet again – that he has no familiarity whatever with the topic (that was) at hand.
In #256 you asked “And what am I ‘lying’ about?” In #258 I responded:
And in your next comment you went back to talking about DNRs. How exactly did you refute my claim. I don’t see how “the fears” in your comment could refer to anything but forced vaccination.
Note that I addressed literally every sentence in #337. I couldn’t have missed it unless you actually didn’t designate a sentence in #337 as a clear statement of your position. ,
Which you didn’t.
Where’the cherry-picking? If you look at the whole post there’s nothing that changes the meaning of your words to something other than what I said. Once again:
Dorit Reiss@16
zebra@22
There is no way “the fears” can refer to anything but AVers fears of forced vaccination.
No. Besides the fact that you’ve done a piss poor job supporting your argument (the closest you’ve gotten to providing evidence in support of it is “read the comments” of the link you provided, since that article itself actually refuted your claim) when you invoke an otherwise rational argument in an insane way it is no longer rational.
As was explained to you many times the implied consent used to treat unresponsive patients in life threatening emergencies is very different from the informed consent needed for routine preventative treatment like vaccination. Laypeople might conflate the two and believe that concerns regarding EOL care justify concerns over forced vaccination but that does not make it a rational argument. Justified or not, your proposed solution does nothing to alleviate those fears and as pointed out by at least 3 people now potenially aggrevates them; a point which you have conveniently ignored every single time.
Two things also occur to me as an afterthought. The first regards the overarching premise that Z. advanced when he nailed his
fectheses to the door the first time @325:This is how he “thought the project of vaccination should be framed.”
All because he was asshurt about his asshurt over the unfairness of DNRs not being a free-for-all proved to be a stupid irrelevancy that he can’t figure out whether to discard or try to salvage,* like deciding whether the yogurt is really just too moldy or one can soldier on with the menu.
The second thing is what the DNR babbling would look like as an actual legal argument rather than a collection of sophomoric platitudes. The only option that occurs to me is based in the 14th Amendment, and would really have to proceed in two steps: (1) even if the terminally ill are a cognizable group (“Duh“), the statutory inclusion of arbitrary [sic] conditions is unfair to….
Oh, wait. The terminally ill can’t be a cognizable class for this to work, because ultimately, “conditions” would have to go.
Phew, on to… (2) Now that such distinctions have been obliterated, there is no rational basis for requiring the involvement of a physician. Strict scrutiny is right out.
* “[Y]ou are simply trying to go back to your already refuted claim that I was talking about vaccination.” No, I was talking about the mentally ill the whole time, from which follows my summary, which in no way should suggest that I have not been absolutely correct at every step of the way, even though I didn’t actually start tediously invoking the word ‘imminent’ until the
whole mental-health system thing blew up in my face“cherrypicking” began as a response to my terrifying insight.—
—
I’m willing to stand by my addition of ‘interlocutor’.
The pluralization really helps solidify the fact that it’s an attempted Wittgensteinianism.
I’m pretty sure that HDB has already done this.
Given that he’s thoughtlessly backed himself into the DNR corner with this one…
… he’s kind of stuck with airway management, ETI or extraglottic. Fortunately, that’s a negligible issue, because Right Livin’ Autonomy:
#372 Mephistopheles
Correct, but, and this is the significant point I’ve been arguing, the public health argument is not a “counter” to the autonomy argument.
Let’s say we have a mother who sends her child to school with three Snickers bars for lunch every day.
In case 1, the school sends a note home telling the mother to stop doing that because she is endangering the health of her child, because Snickers bars are fattening and rot your teeth.
In case 2, the school tells the mother to stop doing it because there are children with peanut allergies, and the candy represents a threat to their health.
In case 1, the mother has a reason to fear that her autonomy with respect to how she raises the child is being threatened. She may exaggerate the extent to which the autonomy might be restricted in the future, but it is not unreasonable to have the concern in the first place.
In case 2, it would not be rational to think the ban had anything to do with her dietary decisions for the child.
The best way to cause the mother to be really paranoid, of course, is to mix the two messages, because then the legitimacy of the public health argument can be called into question: “That’s just an excuse to take away my autonomy.”
But, as I said earlier, that’s a nuanced analysis, and this is Dr OrOz’s blog, and it may be just too hard for the Minions to follow.
zebra:
I have to disagree. Let’s look at your analogy.
The reason for insisting on vaccination in schools is the same as case 2 in your example. Unvaccinated children are not only far more likely to get the diseases but ipso facto to become infectious. They thus pose a risk of harm to students who can’t be vaccinated for medical reasons or are immunosuppressed.
Let’s extend your case 2. Suppose the mother, having received the warning letter, continues putting the Snickers bars in her child’s lunchbox in defiance of the instruction. In that case, the school would be entitled take further action. It may even choose to tell the mother that her child will not be allowed to attend that school until she stops including the Snickers in the lunchbox. In principle, there is no difference between this and not allowing a deliberately undervaccinated child from attending school until the child’s vaccines are up to date.
#383
“I have to disagree”
Yes, zebra said something, so you have to “disagree”, even though you aren’t disagreeing with anything I said there.
Nuance, the bane of the Authoritarian Personality.
Yes I did. I disagreed with your conjecture that:
I pointed out that an unvaccinated child posed a threat to any students who were immunosuppressed or who couldn’t be vaccinated, and that Public Health therefore WAS a counter to personal autonomy, just as in your case 2, Public Health gave the school the right to insist that the mother stop putting Snickers Bars in her child’s lunchbox to protect the pupils at the school who had peanut allergies.
You are being very obtuse and very, very disingenuous.
Julian Frost,
“a counter to personal autonomy” is a meaningless phrase.
“In case 1, the mother has a reason to fear that her autonomy with respect to how she raises the child is being threatened. She may exaggerate the extent to which the autonomy might be restricted in the future, but it is not unreasonable to have the concern in the first place.”
How does the fact that banning Snickers for public health reasons “counter” that?
Ah, a typo/incomplete thought so I’d better forestall the firestorm:
Julian Frost,
“a counter to personal autonomy” is a meaningless phrase.
“In case 1, the mother has a reason to fear that her autonomy with respect to how she raises the child is being threatened. She may exaggerate the extent to which the autonomy might be restricted in the future, but it is not unreasonable to have the concern in the first place.”
How does banning Snickers for public health reasons (case 2) “counter” that, which is case 1?
Are you disagreeing perhaps with:
“The best way to cause the mother to be really paranoid, of course, is to mix the two messages, because then the legitimacy of the public health argument can be called into question: “That’s just an excuse to take away my autonomy.””
?
Or did you even get that far in your reading before the kneejerk response.
“I also suggested how I thought the project of vaccination should be framed. I think it should be a public health matter, meaning that its purpose is to protect the population in general, as opposed to protecting individuals.” NobRed
I wouldn’t worry about this type of ranting – the purpose of vaccination might be to protect the public – that’s the spin. It’s nothing more than a soundbite though, the evidence for protection just isn’t there.
Let’s see what the ex editor of the BMJ has to say about peer review that you so love
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientific-peer-reviews-are-a-sacred-cow-ready-to-be-slaughtered-says-former-editor-of-bmj-10196077.html
“Richard Smith, who edited the British Medical Journal for more than a decade, said there was no evidence that peer review was a good method of detecting errors and claimed that “most of what is published in journals is just plain wrong or nonsense”. There you have it, the guy that produced the premiere medical peer review rag in the UK says it’s all baloney. No wonder NobRed is so out there.
“The peer review process – long considered the gold standard of quality scientific research – is a “sacred cow” that should be slaughtered, the former editor of one of the country’s leading medical journals, Richard Smith has said.
There we are boys, looks like Gorxski central is a bastion of bull and populated by wallowing woo donkeys!
Citation needed!!!!!!
“Correct, but, and this is the significant point I’ve been arguing, the public health argument is not a “counter” to the autonomy argument.” Julian
It is if the ‘public health’ standpoint is based on medical peer review – or woo. Why should an idiot with a peer review paper overrule a mother who can see it’s a pile of………………………
Chairman Mow produced lots of edicts………………
Argument: You can’t make me do things that affect my body because of body autonomy.
Counter argument: The things you do to your body affect others around you. The government has an interest in improving the general level of health and avoiding the spread of disease. The government can thus require you to do things that affect your body in order to participate in certain government run activities (subject to exemptions as defined by the government).
The purpose of the counter argument is not to refute the concept of body autonomy, but to point out the reasons and authority to require actions that, at first glance, appear to contradict a principle of body autonomy.
zebra@
And yet this is the fear that AVers have, hence everyone taking issue with you saying it is rational. A particularly poignant example was Jack Wolfson.
@386
You were the one who used that phrase first you nit.
I think we can add this one to the list too guys.
#391 Mephistopholes,
Again, it’s a matter of nuance and finding the best approach.
***
Let’s say we have a mother who sends her child to school with three Snickers bars for lunch every day.
In case 1, the school sends a note home telling the mother to stop doing that because she is endangering the health of her child, because Snickers bars are fattening and rot your teeth.
In case 2, the school tells the mother to stop doing it because there are children with peanut allergies, and the candy represents a threat to their health.
In case 1, the mother has a reason to fear that her autonomy with respect to how she raises the child is being threatened. She may exaggerate the extent to which the autonomy might be restricted in the future, but it is not unreasonable to have the concern in the first place.
In case 2, it would not be rational to think the ban had anything to do with her dietary decisions for the child.
The best way to cause the mother to be really paranoid, of course, is to mix the two messages, because then the legitimacy of the public health argument can be called into question: “That’s just an excuse to take away my autonomy.”
***
If you disagree with any of that, let me know.
“YOU PEOPLE AREN’T FIT FOR MY PUBLIC POLICY!!!“
If her autonomy with respect to how she raises her child is sufficiently threatened by the knowledge that there are limits on it to give her cause for fear, how does she live with compulsory education requirements, child labor laws, and the prohibition on serving alcohol to minors?
I mean, let’s say she sends her child to school with a bottle of Schlitz malt liquor.
How do you think that should play out? Reasonably?
zebra @387:
As capkrunch pointed out, you used the phrase. And he (she?) also pointed out that antivaxxers use “personal autonomy” as a justification for vaccine refusal.
You then repeated your Snickers Case 1 Case 2 argument.
Yet, that is precisely what some antivaxxers do argue. They argue that requiring their children to be vaccinated violates their personal autonomy.
The authorities are not mixing the two messages at all. Antivaxxers are straw-manning and shouting “personal autonomy!” (case 1) when the issue is about the safety of others (case 2).
zebra@393
That’s your idea of nuance? It’s not that cut and dry. The problem is AVers conflate case 1 with case 2. In theur eyes there is no difference, their freedom is being affected either way. The problem is that no one has ever advocated taking their choice away. It’s always been about public health. You can choose not to vaccinate your kids but then you don’t get to endanger other children by sending them to public school.
I think the best approach to protecting public health is removing non-medical exemptions for public schooling. You apparently disagree. The reason you disagree, is that this provides reasonable cause to fear loss of personal autonomy. As has been pointed out to you there is no forced vaccination and this fear is unreasonable. You seem to be making the same mistake AVers do. Health freedom does not mean freedom from consequences. In addition, your proposed solution still allows unvaccinated children to attend public, endargering the health of other children.
#395 Ann
***
Let’s say we have a mother who sends her child to school with three Snickers bars for lunch every day.
In case 1, the school sends a note home telling the mother to stop doing that because she is endangering the health of her child, because Snickers bars are fattening and rot your teeth.
In case 2, the school tells the mother to stop doing it because there are children with peanut allergies, and the candy represents a threat to their health.
In case 1, the mother has a reason to fear that her autonomy with respect to how she raises the child is being threatened. She may exaggerate the extent to which the autonomy might be restricted in the future, but it is not unreasonable to have the concern in the first place.
In case 2, it would not be rational to think the ban had anything to do with her dietary decisions for the child.
The best way to cause the mother to be really paranoid, of course, is to mix the two messages, because then the legitimacy of the public health argument can be called into question: “That’s just an excuse to take away my autonomy.”
***
If you disagree with any of that, let me know.
Stop repeating yourself, zebra. You’re getting tiresome.
Julian Frost@396
He.
zebra, quick question for you: Do diseases spread?
@ Narad #371
And please note that the idea of having parents “forced” to go to the school a certain day in order to opt out of vaccinating their child is from someone who just after started complaining about being “forced” to go to his/her doctor to have a DNR signed.
And then he/she starts saying other people have a beam in their eye, or something.
zebra – I am choosing not to discuss a hypothetical example for Snickers. I am choosing to discuss current (and proposed) vaccination policies.
If you want to discuss that, there are two arguments in favor of vaccination:
1. Self interest – vaccination will likely protect you from specific diseases with known risks of complications at a very small personal risk.
2. Public interest – vaccination will help protect the community from those same diseases at a very small personal risk.
The body autonomy argument against vaccination: I don’t want to take that small personal risk for either benefit, so I shouldn’t have to. The government’s authority stops at my skin; you cannot make me vaccinate.
I don’t see anything in either argument for vaccination that can be construed as either more or less an issue with body autonomy.
396 Julian Frost
1) I said:
“the public health argument is not a “counter” to the autonomy argument.”
Misquoting gets Krebiozen very upset.
2) So your “disagreement” with my statement:
“In case 2, it would not be rational to think the ban had anything to do with her dietary decisions for the child.”
Is: No, you’re wrong, it would be rational, because those irrational AVers make exactly that irrational argument.
I guess we can now have a nice distracting discussion of what “disagree” means.
3) “The authorities are not mixing the two messages at all.”
Really? The authorities are not telling people that getting your child vaccinated is good for your child? While also telling them that it is needed for herd immunity? Amazing. (I wish I had some of whatever you are drinking or smoking.)
The only Chairman cats ask for by name.
#403 Mephistopholes,
I do see a difference.
In 1, the government is acting to “protect” me from myself.
In 2, the government is acting to “protect” others from me.
This speaks to the question of the role of government. And 1 is a reasonable starting point for a slippery slope argument, while 2 is not.
If the role of government is to protect me from myself, that means my entire existence is at its mercy.
There’s no reasonable such possibility in case 2– I will be affected only when my actions affect others.
zebra, I was directly quoting you from #387 in my comment #396. So stop accusing me of misquoting you.
As for your last paragraph, I was referring to the following:
Why you then make the comment that:
is rather odd.
So NobRed, now we have established that medical peer review, by one of its top authors, is complete quana, it rather means that the whole of this thread, and most of the rest of the site is a dead duck. I love the way everyone has totally ignored this material fact, bit like no comment on Susan Humphries debunking polio vaccination. Kind of validates the anti vaxx position. Chicken boys……
“I also suggested how I thought the project of vaccination should be framed. I think it should be a public health matter, meaning that its purpose is to protect the population in general, as opposed to protecting individuals.” NobRed
I wouldn’t worry about this type of ranting – the purpose of vaccination might be to protect the public – that’s the spin. It’s nothing more than a soundbite though, the evidence for protection just isn’t there.
Let’s see what the ex editor of the BMJ has to say about peer review that you so love
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientific-peer-reviews-are-a-sacred-cow-ready-to-be-slaughtered-says-former-editor-of-bmj-10196077.html
“Richard Smith, who edited the British Medical Journal for more than a decade, said there was no evidence that peer review was a good method of detecting errors and claimed that “most of what is published in journals is just plain wrong or nonsense”. There you have it, the guy that produced the premiere medical peer review rag in the UK says it’s all baloney. No wonder NobRed is so out there.
It’s almost like Z. has not the slightest idea about the audience he’s telling everyone how to effectively communicate with.
“Chris Cuomo on CNN: ‘I can’t have my kids bring peanuts to school but a parent has a choice on whether to vaccinate their kids?’ Hey bro, tell it to the CDC — vaccines caused those peanut allergies! -0-“
Zebra there is no point trying to rationalise with these people. When you are rational, they are irrational, when you are irrational out of sheer frustration, they appear rational..
It’s a kind of scientology game that no one can win. I have already pointed out that their gods of medical peer review are now telling us what we knew, medical peer review is bullshit. But it is all they have, well NobRed has a pile of tissues because he is the kind of person who gets off on wasting people’s time with woo discussions and fallacy.
Zebra there is no point trying to rationalise with these people. When you are rational, they are irrational, when you are irrational out of sheer frustration, they appear rational..
It’s a kind of scientology game that no one can win. I have already pointed out that their gods of medical peer review are now telling us what we knew, medical peer review is balony. But it is all they have, well NobRed has a pile of tissues because he is the kind of person who gets off on wasting people’s time with woo discussions and fallacy.
Sorry for the repeat, I used a naughty word that went into moderation. Medical peer review!
You keep saying Susan Humphries. Do you mean Dr. Suzanne Humphries? Is she the crackpot to whom you constantly refer? Or is there another tinfoil hat wearing attention-seeking scumbag out there named Susan Humphries who also lies about the polio vaccine?
Okay!
I disagree, on the grounds that she can easily stop sending her child to school with three Snickers bars for lunch without any loss of parental autonomy, not excluding her right to feed her child three daily Snickers bars, if she so wishes.
I agree.
I strongly disagree.
The best way to cause the mother to be really paranoid is a sustained campaign of harassment, stalking, hang-up calls, and threats of death, kidnapping, and financial ruin.
On consideration, I suppose I also disagree with Case 1 on the grounds that if the school really thought she was endangering her child, she wouldn’t be hearing about it via a note the school sent home with him or her. There’s a mandate to report.
It varies by state. But I’m pretty sure schools and/or teachers are mandatory reporters everywhere.
But you haven’t established that peer reviw is”complete quana”, johnny. All you’ve done is note that in the opinion of one former journal editor pre-publication peer review needs to be improved.
I disagree, on the grounds that the government isn’t acting to do anything in either.
zebra@396
zebra@382
Julian Frost@383
@385
That’s an exact quote both times. There’s water treatment plants that are less full of sh*t than you.
I disagree, on the grounds that it is the role of government to protect its citizens from themselves if that’s what it has to do to protect their rights, which does not put their entire existences at its mercy and indeed cannot, since there’s a robust and unambiguous prohibition against it doing so, both de facto and de jure.
^^Nuance.
Ooooh Delphine flower, I hardly think Humphries is a crackpot. She has more medical qualifications than most of this site. So do you read the BMJ or are you just a bypass poster?
Suzanne Humphries has a medical degree and is (or was) a qualified neprhologist–that’s it to the best of my knowledge.
That said, having an advanced or medical degree hardly disqualifies one from being a crackpot as well–just consider examples like Gerson, Burzynski, etc..
“That said, having an advanced or medical degree hardly disqualifies one from being a crackpot as well”
All the best cranks, gadflys, crackpots have advanced degrees.
So much so that any that somehow can’t afford to or can’t get into an accredited institution of higher learning will buy degrees on the internet.
You really can’t trust a string of letters after a name to enforce rigorous, analytical, logical, or rational thoughts; no matter which institution grants them.
Jesus Christ, that moron still hasn’t figured out what a killfile is?
Wait just a minute, dear boy. You trash the medical community, yet you cite Suzanne/Susan/Suellen Humphries’ medical degree to lend credence to her fear-mongering?
@ Delphine:
Sure, in one breath they castigate an author and an editor @ BMJ who detaled Wakefield’s malfeasance and then scoff at pharma support there but then applaud a prestigious ( past) editor and research published there that agree ( at least in their fevered imaginations) with their own woo.
Go figure.
That should be DETAILED and one less THEN ( le premier)
Spraying kids with DDT was a medical directive.
Thanks for pointing out that medical peer review means whatever you have paid for it to mean. It is like watching crap in a washing machine on this blog, you make up whatever you want to and discuss precious little.
Delphine
disappointed not to have a masturbation-themed nickname
May 6, 2015. Don’t worry, it will come. If that’s what, as a proper doctor, you aspire too, consider it in the pipeline.
You have to write something a bit more sexy than ‘naa boo yaa’. All we are seeing is ‘vaccine believers’ and pharma shills over and over – why do you wonder why so many people have lost faith in what you do?
Dr. Humphries is a nephrologist who “left conventional medicine” and has since embraced quackery such as homeopathy and claims that vaccines cause kidney damage. She also describes vaccines as “disease matter” and claims that people have never been vaccinated voluntarily.
A brief perusal of her website revealed claims that whooping cough can be treated successfully with vitamin C. She cites an uncontrolled case series of 26 children from 1938 with no laboratory confirmation of pertussis but fails to mention a controlled study the same year that concluded:
I think it is extremely irresponsible of Humphries to make such claims and cherry-pick the evidence to support them. An unvaccinated child is up to 26 times more likely to get whooping cough (note the distinction from pertussis) than a vaccinated child, and there is no good evidence that vitamin C will have any beneficial effects. Even if it did, is it really better to be coughing for up to seven weeks instead of preventing the disease entirely by keeping up to date with booster shots?
That was just the first of her articles that caught my eye. I dread to think what other dangerous nonsense she promotes.
How you do run on.
I’m not a doctor, lad. But I do have a question for you – have you ever been to SSA?
“I think it is extremely irresponsible of Humphries to make such claims and cherry-pick the evidence to support them.” knob
Well you would, you are a vaccine believer
” Even if it did, is it really better to be coughing for up to seven weeks instead of preventing the disease entirely by keeping up to date with booster shots?” Knob
Whooping cough vaccine is about as woo as you can get boy, massive whooping cough vaccine failure has only just left us, until the next one.
B52 bombers spraying Detroit with DDT isn’t a cherry pick, you twat, it’s something the public need to know about. It’s medical peer reviewed research that is the lot of cherry pie.
“But you haven’t established that peer reviw is”complete quana”, johnny.” NobRed
I stand corrected – medical peer review is crap. Thank you
johnny,
The dangers of DDT appear to have been exaggerated. There is no good evidence to support claims that it leads to eggshell thinning in raptors, it has only weak estrogenic effects, does not cause cancer (animal feed contamination with aflatoxins led to that erroneous conclusion), and has neurotoxic effects only in enormous doses (greater than 5 grams in humans). I have seen convincing arguments that restrictions on DDT use have led to millions of deaths from malaria.
I’m still waiting for your evidence that DDT causes polio-like effects in humans in the doses children were exposed to in the US some decades ago.
johnny,
Multiple independent studies (see references section in this article) have found that a full course of pertussis vaccination is 70% effective against pertussis infection five years later, and the remaining 30% are protected against paroxysmal coughing aka whooping cough. That doesn’t constitute “massive vaccine failure” on my planet, but I suppose you claim that all those studies were 100 of those studies were manipulated by some shadowy global conspiracy.
Hiccup – ^ should read: “I suppose you claim that all 100 of those studies were manipulated by some shadowy global conspiracy.
“I have seen convincing arguments that restrictions on DDT use have led to millions of deaths from malaria.” The DDT debate with respect to malaria/vector control is ongoing in the circles in which I work and travel. DDT’s hardly the boogeyman some have made it out to be, I worry more about resistance.
Oh, goody, Phildo has decided to switch capitalization to impersonate the sane Johnny, so I get to see his twaddle. All is not lost, though:
That’s right, he’s also too stupid or drunk to figure out block quotes.
Narad@435
That’s a lot to expect from him considering he can’t even correctly identify who said what.
Side note, I think it’s interesting that THEO is a supporter of zebra’s while johnny disagrees with him (though misattributed to Narad).
@johnny
Stop being such a scumbag and switch back to using lowercase.
That’s what I meant. It’s just as well that he can’t use blockquotes, because his style further identifies him as Philip Hills, Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex.
Oops, didn’t realize that Krebiozen got the totally original nickname “knob”, I thought that was still referring to Narad (easy mistake tovmake considering johnny has previously referred to Narad as “knob”). Regardless, in #141 johnny misattributes a zebra quite to Narad, #186 Narad quoting Gamondes as Narad’s own words, and #388 and 408 zebra as Narad again.
Right, and in #430, which I saw, he further misattributed a JGC comment to me. He’s as dumb as a f*cking rock.
medical peer review, by one of its top authors, is complete quana
“Quana”? Really?
Johnny is feeling a bit left-out and needy, what with Zebra’s arguments taking up all the attention and leaving none for him.
You can’t say he’s not proud of his oikisms.
herr doktor bimler,
On the basis of him being batsh!t crazy (no offence intended to those with SMI), I assume he meant guano.
I have started hearing all johnny’s comments in my head voiced by Nigel Farage. This is not a good thing.
Some kind of guano / quinoa mash-up perhaps.
@#442
DEAD
Seems to be going a bit far, even for health-food faddists; I’ll stick with potatoes. Maybe it’s meant as a face mask…
Perhaps ‘Johnny’ meant Qiana, although why he’s invoking a 70’s polyester disco fabric is anybody’s guess.
There’s only one definition on Urbandictionary:
“a black male that wears retro clothes and thinks everyday is a disco party ”
It’s got more downvotes than upvotes, though.
Or residual feelings of inferiority in comparison with the quantum osteopaths.
“Multiple independent studies (see references section in this article) have found that a full course of pertussis vaccination is 70% effective against pertussis infection five years later, and the remaining 30% are protected against paroxysmal coughing aka whooping cough. ” krebbsie
But we now know that medical peer review is horseshite – it never was evidence. Get you head out of your rear and start breathing.
“Referring to John Ioannidis’ famous 2005 paper “Why most published research findings are false”, Dr Smith said “most of what is published in journals is just plain wrong or nonsense”.
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/slay-peer-review-sacred-cow-says-former-bmj-chief/2019812.article
You are all being left behind in the dark ages – tut tut, all that posting based on ‘sacred cows’. I assume non of you have a higher academic position than the editor of the British Medical Journal – if he says medical peer review is cow dung then you should all come up to speed.
“Multiple independent studies (see references section in this article) have found that a full course of pertussis vaccination is 70% effective against pertussis infection five years later, and the remaining 30% are protected against paroxysmal coughing aka whooping cough. ” krebbsie
But we now know that medical peer review is horse twang – it never was evidence. Get you head out of your rear and start breathing.
“Referring to John Ioannidis’ famous 2005 paper “Why most published research findings are false”, Dr Smith said “most of what is published in journals is just plain wrong or nonsense”.
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/slay-peer-review-sacred-cow-says-former-bmj-chief/2019812.article
You are all being left behind in the dark ages – tut tut, all that posting based on ‘sacred cows’. I assume non of you have a higher academic position than the editor of the British Medical Journal – if he says medical peer review is cow dong then you should all come up to speed.
@ Johnny if he says medical peer review is cow dong then you should all come up to speed.
This is exactly right! but they can’t Johhny their entire profession is built on woo. Patented chemical based medicine.
How can anyone trust any of these vaccine studies funded by drug companies? This is the bigger point and most important of all. Fraud has been going on since the inception of PEER REVIEW. We are just now finding out about this. I wonder for how many decades or centuries for that matter we have bought into so called scientific facts and studies postulated by the medical community that were based on fraudulent peer review?
Who is funding the study is the first clue and if its funded by a mulitnational billion dollar company with products to sell there must be an independent watchdog group overseeing it. Sadly that does not happen.
These corporations publish whatever they want and say “LOOK LOOK PEER REVIEW” and the media is happy to promote it on the nightly news as gospel. and the american people eat it up.
And in the meantime we are told GMO foods are safe, get your mercury laced vaccines for the flu at the blinking red light at Wallgreens, and take your prescription drugs for arthritis. And for good measure they fabricate studies showing vitamin supplements dont work and are a waste of money. But by all means consume these patented chemicals we have studied proven safe. SHEESH
And the critics like defecting MD’s Humphries, Brownstein, Etc who know the truth are suddenly called kooks, cranks, loons and quacks? STFU! already
A shifting health paradigm is underway. We don’t need your woo medicine based on peer review.
johnny,
Even if Smith was right, and many people disagree with him, it doesn’t automatically mean that every single study ever done is wrong (apart from the ones that agree with your deluded ideas, of course). I’m sure no one here would suggest uncritically accepting a single study, but when 100 different studies from different parts of the world agree, we can be pretty sure they are correct. The fact that the incidence of pertussis has fallen by more than 90% everywhere vaccination has been introduced also strongly supports the efficacy of the vaccine.
You really aren’t very bright are you? Dr. Smith has not been editor of the BMJ for more than a decade, and is an ardent supporter of vaccination. For example, he wrote:
I was interested to see that Dr. Smith is the brother of comedian Arthur Smith. Perhaps that explains his statement last year that there is no point in finding a cure for cancer as it is “the best way to die”.
PS – cows don’t have dongs.
I still wonder what they want to replace the scientific method and peer review with.
Do they have problems, yes, but what is this magical replacement system that will uncover the truth about reality that they seem to have full faith in without ever tell us what it happens to be or how it works?
THEO – you mention vitamin supplements. As far as I am aware it has been shown that the body will not use any more than it needs. So shoveling in a massive overdose of vitamins per day is pointless. A waste of money. Therefore the vitamin pill pushers are driven only by the desire to make money. In fact, that puts them in exactly the same category as you place the ‘pushers’ of modern pharmaceuticals. Pushing a product that is ineffective and unnecessary.
“Even if Smith was right, and many people disagree with him,” Slimey creepy krebby pants
What a horse trader, you are as false as your fallacies boy and you still can’t see the ship sinking
“As far as I am aware it has been shown that the body will not use any more than it needs” wang disfunction
What a straw clutch your post was , a = b = banana
Comparing necessary nutrients with defunct medication is the work of the pharma shill.
Number of deaths from vitamins and minerals last 10 years?
Number of deaths from patients on the right medication exceeds the number of deaths from those on the wrong medication – look it up. That means with a doctor in the equation whose only approach is pharma isn’t looking good.
So now you have no medical peer review – what ya got boys.
Sounds like the party just went pfut……..
“Do they have problems, yes, but what is this magical replacement system that will uncover the truth about reality that they seem to have full faith in without ever tell us what it happens to be or how it works?” Wahaykay
Don’t worry dear, when those people thought the world was flat and then they heard it was a sphere, the same things came up. For a start believing that disease is some unlucky magic is hard to let go of, that we need the snake oil to fix it is another one, or the orachopper to take it away.
Perhaps if you quietly left the scene, all of you, and let some proper professionals take over, you might learn something.
Theo, are you enjoying the stunned silence. Now their baby has gone, they don’t know what to do with themselves.
I guess NobRed is working his way through the tissue box, poor boy.
KayMarie@453
Smith wants it replaced with open online publishing and post review. A reasonable idea but probably unrealistic from a publisher’s perspective. Nowhere does he say we should throw out the scientific method or invalidate all the studies we currently have. I’m pretty sure johnny and THEO’s alternative is to throw out everything we’ve done up to this point and switch to relying on anecdotes and Mercola.com and friends.
johnny@455
Who’s the one being dishonest here? From your source:
johnny@
No. We recognize the limitations and have for quite some time. You offer nothing that hasn’t been discussed here and at SBM in depth. The difference between science and pseudoscience is that we recognize problems, both with our current knowledge and our methods and work to correct them. And, as I said before, you are greatly misrepresenting Smith’s words. He doesn’t want to throw out the whole process. Studies would still be done, they would still use the scientific method, replication would be necessary for them to be adopted, etc, etc. The only difference would be instead of prepublication peer review it would be open and done post publishing.
A “proper professional” like this guy?
” We recognize the limitations and have for quite some time. You offer nothing that hasn’t been discussed here and at SBM in depth. The difference between science and pseudoscience is that we recognize problems, both with our current knowledge and our methods and work to correct them” Chudmuffler
The only ‘problem’ you all seem to recognize is that a growing body of public and professionals is seeing right through ‘a pill for ill’ and the biased way it is presented as the only ‘scientific option’.
Your method only stops fallacies when the profit margin drops. You accept a flawed testing method for vaccine efficacy by re inventing the placebo. Georgina is part of the existing process, the one where all academics only exist in publications, they don’t actually do very much.
“The difference between science and pseudoscience……
This is such a baloney sentence crunchy, it is so full of holes it is hard to know where to start. The last flu pandemic was pseudoscience, what is the difference?
Current medical peer review is kapooti, you get the pizza you pay for – how on earth is that science? You offer nothing except religious rants about medical peer review, citation required……..what is the point on citing gabooni?
johnny, why are you lying to us?
johnny @457:
Answer:
As for:
You assume that the medicine is the cause of death, not the condition which the patient was taking medication for.
You’re a damn fool.
Given by the kind of ‘evidence’ antivaxer’s typically embrace,, I’d say they want working scientists to release their data in the form of unsupported assertions presented in YouTube videos, or failing that as rants found on whale.to.
Theo, your evidence that GMO foods are NOT safe for human consumption would be…what, exactly? Be specific.
I mean, you do have some–right?
Theo, your evidence that vaccines are ‘laced’ with inorganic mercury would be…what, exactly? Be specific.
I mean, you do have some–right?
Theo, your evidence that prescription drugs for arthritis (e.g., Enbrel) are neither safe nor efficacious would be…what, exactly? Be specific.
I mean, you do have some–right?
Citations needed, Theo: which fabricated studies are you referring to here? Be specific.
I still wonder what they want to replace the scientific method and peer review with.
YouTube videos.
I’m still waiting for johnny’s response to Dr. Smith’s enthusiastic support of vaccination. He also believes in the eradication of polio through vaccination:
How can johnny believe anything this provaxxer writes? Aren’t his claims about peer review are rendered worthless by this?
I could really upset “johnny” and “THEO” by letting them know my *NORMAL MD* measures my vitamin levels and prescribes what I need based on the results. (Due to surgery, I can’t get all I need from foods). Xe does not recommend mega-doses nor handfuls of various drugs. Xe *is* working with me to help me lose weight, exercise more, and hopefully get me off some of my Rx drugs.
Of course, this is totally contrary to what “johnny” and “THEO” believe regular MDs do. They have this idee fixe that all MDs are true pharma shills who live to push medications.
Not only that, but I had to ASK to have my vaccines updated, as their records were off and they thought I’d already had the ones I needed. They offered both thimerosol-free (single dose) and multi-dose options. Since I didn’t care either way, I happily signed my consents and got my mercury.
I’m also of the generation who used to paint ourselves with Merthiolate for cowboys and Indians games. It was also heavily slopped onto any injuries by our parents – I think the sting of that stuff will live in my mind forever. It was in all our vaccines. And, at the time, as teens, my brother and I got our first contact lenses, it was in all the soaking solutions.) So if thimerosol was that dangerous, my friends, siblings and I would all be drooling maniacs like “johnny” and “THEO”.
However, the only autistic person in our family was a cousin in the 1930s. We might have some Asperger’s on all sides, but never severe enough for diagnosis. Lots of “quirky” family members, both male and female, vaccinated and unvaccinated.
johnny@464
Steve Novella talks about peer review, it’s limitations, and potential solutions.
h[]ps://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/peer-review-and-the-internet/
Steve Novella talks about using the Internet to improve the peer review system.
Orac talks about open peer review and some other initiatives to improve the process.
h[]ps://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/does-peer-review-need-fixing/
A certain friend of the blog talks about how criticisms of peer review are overblown and looks at solutions.
The oldest article there is 2006. Like I said you have nothing new to offer.
All studies should be vetted by a committee of experts in those fields that are not beholden to special interests. The problem is most scientist have careers they want to advance
and do not want to go against the consensus, power and money. So they go with the flow knowing if they argue and refute the study they will potentially end their career dry up finding for research and be called a loon or a quack. Thats not science thats an agenda by a powerful pharmacutical cartel with 1 goal absolute control over medicine.
Peer review should not be scrapped but it needs overhauling with 100% complete transparency. We have been told its sanctified and trustworthy thats clearly false. Since its been manipulated for so long ALL vaccine studies should be vetted by an independent group to see where the fraud is, that includes drugs too. Our side can direct people to these studies right away.
@JGC for Arthritis take Glucosamine (as HCI), MSM and white willow bark. cured no side effects. in harmony with the body.
You don’t need a drug for arthritis. There are at least 15 diseases I know of off the top of my head that can be reversed with diet supplements and lifestyle 100% safe zero side effects.
Some of the flu shots still contains Mercury
GMO foods are like vaccines. no long term studies they dont do immediate damage but have long term implications. Plus all of Europe is against them.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3945755/
WAIT she is a quack going against the establishment. she cannot be trusted. Do you see why its so hard to change medicine?
I take a fiber supplement to keep my colon cleansed. But then you have this pile of kapooti
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=117896
NumberWang
May 7, 2015
THEO – you mention vitamin supplements. As far as I am aware it has been shown that the body will not use any more than it needs. So shoveling in a massive overdose of vitamins per day is pointless. A waste of money. Therefore the vitamin pill pushers are driven only by the desire to make money. In fact, that puts them in exactly the same category as you place the ‘pushers’ of modern pharmaceuticals. Pushing a product that is ineffective and unnecessary.
Have you ever heard of optimal nutrition? Functional Medicine?probably not……The human body does not get its daily required nutrients day in and day out. This is the ROOT cause of many diseases. the soil does not contain the nutrients it did 100 years ago, your body is deficient in lots of nutrients. Supplements can fill the gap and provide a boost. My gosh get up to speed already this is old news. go investigate
http://ajcn.nutrition.org
At least the next time some anti-vaxer throws up a link to something like Ginger Taylor’s “86 Research Papers Supporting the Vaccine/Autism Link” we can tell them “johnny says they’re invalid because PEER REVIEW!
johnny, to clarify, so I don’t mis-represent your position:
Do you reject or support the Germ Theory of disease and Koch’s postulates?
Because I’m starting to get a whiff of germ theory denial from some of your posts.
Vitalism is a philosophy (way of thinking about life) which understands that someone or some intelligent energy source or some non-material force or inborn power makes us alive and coordinates all functions of life.
The truth about how the body works is simple: We are self-healing self-regulating organisms. Health and adaptation comes from inside us.
This inborn innate intelligence sustains every vital aspect of life in your body: including growth, healing, cellular function, reproduction, immune system, breathing, balance, heart beat, etc.
How do we manage this vital life force within us?
With mercury, aluminum, chemo, formaldehyde,radiation, surgery? or with optimal nutrients, avoiding toxins, pure clean water/hydration, sleep, balanced diet, fruits and vegetables lean proteins/ a whole foods diet like PALEO? The answer is in the fuel you are putting in your body. Food is medicine.
THEO @ 475: You do understand that immunization (through vaccination) is people using their adaptive immune system and immunologic memory to prevent illness, right?
It is the body not just self-healing, but actively preventing illness, so it doesn’t need to heal.
FTFY, theo.
Yes jgc in moderation
We are self-healing self-regulating organisms.
So I shouldn’t have bothered with surgery when my right leg was fractured in three places?
(Herr Doktor Bimler will post a Groucho Marx-ian riposte in 3….2….1…).
THEO’s lapsing into something resembling the English of a native speaker is, of course, diagnostic of a cut and paste.
I’m starting to get a whiff of germ theory denial from some of your posts.
Starting? He doesn’t believe the flu “is catching.” Immunology basically was completed by A.T. Still in the Phildoverse. (Although I’d love to hear about his career in managing cardiac units.)
Richard Smith, who edited the British Medical Journal for more than a decade, said there was no evidence that peer review was a good method of detecting errors and claimed that “most of what is published in journals is just plain wrong or nonsense. He went on to say that if peer review was a drug it would never get on the market because we have little evidence of its benefit but lots about its adverse effects”.
“You do understand that immunization (through vaccination) is people using their adaptive immune system and immunologic memory to prevent illness, right?
It is the body not just self-healing, but actively preventing illness, so it doesn’t need to heal.” Justabull
That’s a nice fairy story bull, but you don’t have any evidence to support it. The adaptive immuno theory, moderated by vaccination is also a fairy story too. Next you will be telling us that vaccines save lives.
“Do you reject or support the Germ Theory of disease and Koch’s postulates?” jUstapile
Oh geez, not that old chestnut. You can isolate pathogens on most people and there is no disease. Of course there are germs, but they are not the ’cause’ of all disease, it is like blaming skids on the road on car accidents.
Looking for germs as the cause of all diseases is a dead end.
Look what antibiotics have led us to, and who prescribes those? Proper doctors, you can’t blame that on alt med.
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/apr/06/drug-resistant-disease-could-kill-80000-single-uk-outbreak-report-warns
my right leg was fractured in three places
One place is happenstance, two places is coincidence, but after three places it is time to give up skiing.
johnny @481: So, if there is no such thing as the adaptive immune system, what do you offer as an alternative explanation?
Do you also think the innate immune system is a “fairy story”?
(And please, I’m not nearly special enough for a nickname, thanks.)
Theo, these people are sicker than most, their believe system has screwed them senseless. They all think disease is a mystery event caused by bad luck and deficiency in medication!
They can’t even understand what arthritis is and how to help people with it, all they offer everything is steroids and antibiotics. They only have two or three spanners in the box!
JGC@477
johnny has made it pretty clear that we can’t trust peer reviewed studies. THEO hasn’t responded because he doesn’t need to. They live in a free for all world where simply saying something makes it true, unless of course it is said in a peer reviewed journal. THEO’s word is the proof.
If germs don’t cause disease, then antibiotic-resistant germs are no threat to anyone. So why criticize the medical profession for the existence of harmless antibiotic-resistant germs?
I haven’t been following lately. johnny got an upgrade?
LW@487
Wouldn’t it be nice if they could at least be internally consistent? I expect that much from anything else in the fantasy genre.
johnny,
As I wrote above, Richard Smith also said:
Why don’t you agree with what Richard Smith wrote about vaccines?
JGC I am sorry my response is stuck in moderation because I put in too many links
@ Theo
Define “paleo”. What’s accepted, what’s forbidden?
Be precise.
As an example, are we allowed tomatoes, pumpkins, soya, green peppers?
Both Johnny and Theo are from Cloud Cuckoo Land, because there is certainly no consistency in their beliefs.
Philip Hills’s* comically idiotic conception of the immune system has been covered.
* This is another one where the text on the FB page is inconveniently identical to the pseudonym’s.
Johnny, have you ever been to a developing country?
johnny,
Huh? Everyone knows skid-marks on the road are painted by pixies when no one is looking.
Delphine,
Those exit polls have made me very depressed. Looks like we’re getting Con-LibDem Coalition 2.0 🙁
Philip Hills has been to India, believe it or not. It’s extraordinary finding germ theory denialists in the 21st century. We can sequence viral DNA and even assemble one, inject it into an animal and the animal gets sick, yet these people still don’t believe it. Astonishing.
My card-carrying Dad is rolling in his grave. Awful. David “I like The Smiths I really do” Cameron has made Scottish independence almost a certainty and doesn’t care if you leave the EU.
Topic. I am always surprised when anti-vaxxers have been to a developing country. Makes me realize how ignorant and privileged they truly are. Then again, it’s not like I needed more evidence in this case particularly…
Herr Doktor, you disappoint me. You’re supposed to post “but I told you to stay out of those places.”
Before I forget, from Big J:
This is a classic.
Mephistopheles re 403 406
I take it from your non-response that your are accepting the validity of my last comment. Thanks for demonstrating what a rationally articulated debate should look like.
Herr Doktor, you disappoint me.
If it’s any consolation, I disappoint myself.
This is a classic.
Detroit… Rockford… near enough for Government work, right?
@zebra, re #406,
But in respect to the issue at hand, vaccination or medical exemption as a requirement of attending public school, we’re not talking about the government protecting you, zebra, from yourself, or any other person from himself. We are talking about the government taking some action to protect minors (not competent to consent to or refuse medical treatment) from ill-advised decisions of their guardians.
In other words, with respect to children, there is no case 1; the government is trying to protect others (children directly or indirectly affected) from the consequences of decisions made by adults.
In fairness to zebra, I was the one who introduced case 1 (the self interest argument). It is the weaker of the two with regard to government’s interests, and I’d be ready to concede that the government’s interest in protecting you from the consequences of your own actions should be less than in protecting the rest of society from you. I find it odd that it is also, in zebra’s opinion, the more problematic argument if you argue strictly from a body autonomy perspective. Apparently an appeal to altruism is somehow less threatening than an appeal to self interest.
JGC
I get the hunch that you are a medical doctor or nurse practitioner. You are very rigid in your response which tells me you have been trained a certain way and this vitalism philosophy eludes you and is hard for you to comprehend.
Except, of course, when all too frequently we fail to be self-healing, and die or suffer chronic illness and injury instead.
What causes that JGC? answer toxins or deficiency A drug is not answer
Helianthus as for Paleo look it up !!
What you medical professional fail to understand is that FOOD is what is causing most of the heath problems in this country and FOOD is the only way to heal those problems. writing prescriptions will solve nothing. Dont you feel useless sometimes when you prescribe drugs?
My mother is 81 years old doesnt take drugs but takes a lot of vitamins and eats good. I dont need your peer review studies to know what vitamins do. They work
Paleo is considered an anti-inflammatory diet. Thats why its CRITICAL for patients suffering Auto-immune conditions like MS
By the way I put money where my mouth is. My son who is approaching 9 months old WILL NEVER get vaccinated. And guess what I have 100% complete confidence he is going to thrive. I dont buy into your philosophy of fear mongering that the human body requires vaccines, nor do most doctors outside of the pharmaceutical religion based on fraudulent peer review. There are 10’s of 1000’s unvaccinated kids kicking ass in the world. my son will be one of them.
He needs optimal nutrients like a Ferrari needs octane fuel. GET IT!
zebra:
How self-serving. Your point had already been dealt with. Antivaccinationists conflate the two, as you have already been notified. That you are now trying to go round in circles isn’t our problem. Nor does it compel us to engage you on an already refuted point.
THEO, Native Americans had plenty of good nutrition. Why did so many of them die off from measles?
Mephistopheles, I explained that.
[“In 1, the government is acting to “protect” me from myself.
In 2, the government is acting to “protect” others from me.”]
We are talking about whether there is a rational basis to be concerned about the government infringing on your autonomy, whether with respect to your body or your decisions about your children.
In case 1, the threat is open-ended. The government could also decide that it is protecting you from yourself by forcing you to eat/serve broccoli, and not eat/serve meat, for example.
In case 2, there is no such threat.
What do you disagree with about what I said?
zebra, you forgot to take something into account: diseases spread. I suggest you seriously re-think your arguments based on that fact.
Poor Olivia Dahl, with her affluent parents, lovely homes, vegetable gardens. Shame that child wasn’t better nourished. If only she’d had more nutrients.
I guess THEO is going to be disappointed:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/goatsandsoda/2015/05/07/404963436/scientists-crack-a-50-year-old-mystery-about-the-measles-vaccine?sc=tw
THEO your son is not your personal property. He’ll likely make choices of his own. Some of those choices may not align with your worldview. Welcome to parenting.
zebra, we have dealt with this already.
In this case, there isn’t.
1) Vaccination protects both the vaccinated and those around him/her. It’s Case 2, not Case 1.
2) Insisting that a child who has no medical contraindications be vaccinated as a prerequisite to entering school does not violate parental autonomy. It’s inconvenient, but a parent who wishes his/her to remain vaccine free can homeschool or go to a Waldorf school.
Your argument is invalid.
THEO,
Let’s say that when your unvaccinated son is 18 he decides to take a few months out to travel around Asia or Africa. He will very likely have no immunity to measles, mumps, rubella, polio, pertussis, tetanus, hepatitis A, hepatitis B and various other diseases that he is likely to encounter.
Many of these diseases are extremely unpleasant and even life-threatening, particularly in adults. Almost 1% of adults suffer complications of measles such as encephalitis, impaired consciousness, behaviour changes, motor disturbances (including fits, involuntary movements, or paresis), pneumonia (or severe bronchitis), otitis media or deafness. Between 5% and 14% of adults with chickenpox develop lung problems, such as pneumonia. With mumps, 40% of adult males develop orchitis (painful swelling of the testicles), 15% develop meningitis and 5% suffer pancreatitis. If you think that what you believe is a healthy diet will prevent these complications you are very much mistaken.
What evidence do you have that would lead you to gamble your son’s life on what you surely must realize are beliefs shared by only a tiny minority of people?
BTW I recommend you, and everyone else, read the article Lawrence linked to at #514. It seems that the immunosuppression measles causes lasts even longer than previously thought, reducing immunity to other diseases and greatly increasing mortality. Not giving your child MMR does him a great disservice.
“Let’s say that when your unvaccinated son is 18 he decides to take a few months out to travel around Asia or Africa. He will very likely have no immunity to measles, mumps, rubella, polio, pertussis, tetanus, hepatitis A, hepatitis B and various other diseases that he is likely to encounter.” — THEO’s son will either not catch any of those diseases OR will fight them off through the amazeballs nutrients he ingested throughout his childhood.
Oh, the places THEO’s son won’t go… http://www.who.int/ith/ITH_country_list.pdf
Mephistopheles O’Brien@507
It doesn’t make sense considering a commom AV complaint is “why should I endager my child to protect yours.” In #392 I already quoted the awful Dr. Wolfson who may be the most striking example of this. Another one that sticks in my mind is Rhett Krawitt, the boy with leukemia who was in the news because his father was campaigning for his school to remove personal belief exemptions. This was about as pure “case 2” as it gets. The father was basically saying “do what you want with your child, so long as it doesn’t endanger my child.” And yet:
I get that it’s difficult to comprehend that they can be so terrible and self centered but it has been pointed out enough times that I’m fairly certain zebra is just being deliberately obtuse (no surprise given his history).
Well, you don’t have to go to any of those dirty places with brown people to get tetanus, you can get that in your garden. So, I guess, like the thing that shall not be mentioned has advocated, THEOspawn will stay on the sidewalk, for ever and ever.
Or maybe a hamster ball.
Let’s say Theo’s unvaccinated son gets drafted (since I don’t know where Theo lives, that’s always a possibility). At his induction physical Theo’s son will begin cursing Theo’s failure to save him from getting all those shots.
@Theo
I wanted you own definition, dude (or lass). Just to see if you know what you are talking about.
I guess my conclusion shall be “you know nothing”.
@THEO
I’m still working on the response to the last thing you said to me, but in the meantime, here ‘s my comment on something more recent you said:
How oddly specific. Why only toxins and not all poisons? What is special about toxins that makes it so that the self-healing self-healer can’t self-heal from them even though it can self-heal from anything else if it has the right building blocks?
So, since arsenic is not a toxin but is poisonous, if someone gets killed by it, they must have some deficiency, since that’s the only other option. What is the nutrient that they are deficient in, and how much do you have to date in order to survive ingestion of a large quantity of arsenic? More practically, what nutrients and how much of them do I have to take to self-heal from decapitation? Because that would be really cool to demonstrate to friends at parties.
Not even antidotes to toxins?
So let’s see. Worldwide, the most common diseases by incidence are diarrhea, lower respiratory infection, malaria, measles, pertussis, malignant neoplasm, dengue, stroke, tuberculosis, congestive heart failure, and AIDS. What are the FOODS that cause each of these? You can skip any you’re unsure about and I’ll just assume you just don’t know for those.
Watching you deal with a flat tire must be fun. I imagine you pull the nail out of the tire and then go and puncture the other tires with it. After all, you have to solve a problem with whatever caused it. There is no other way.
Why does your son’s vital force even bother with this whole nutrients thing anyway? It seems like it only gets in the way. Can’t it vitally force things without . . . stuff?
Leaving Theo’s issues for a moment, did anyone notice what came out of Texas yesterday in the case of Wakefield vs Deer et cie?
TO THE 250TH DISTRICT COURT OF TRAVIS COUNTY, GREETINGS “This is an appeal from the judgment signed by the trial court on August 3, 2012. Having reviewed the record and the parties’ arguments, the Court holds that there was no reversible error in the trial court’s judgment. Therefore, the Court affirms the trial court’s judgment. The appellant shall pay all costs relating to this appeal, both in this Court and the court below.”
Ruled by Judge Jeff Rose.
My son who is approaching 9 months old WILL NEVER get vaccinated.
Sounds like THEO intends to kill his son before he’s old enough to opt for vaccinations himself. Perhaps we should inform the authorities.
a whole foods diet like PALEO?
THEO has his own special Paleo diet which centres on supplement pills… as was the original caveman way.
He needs optimal nutrients like a Ferrari needs octane fuel
“Octane fuel”? ORLY?
[…] so tainted by loons like the AVSN that it is about as appealing as a turd sanga), but remember that so few of them do. And his posts bring out all of the dog whistles of the anti-vaccine movement: fears for vaccine […]
zebra, @#504
I take it from your non-response that your are accepting the validity of my comments at #414, #415, #417, and #419, all of which met the specs you requested at #398.
Thanks for the multiple concessions.
^^
“you are accepting,” I mean.
Apologies for the typo.
I feel that I should remember the line item for the indigent fee on the cost breakdown. It’s page 3 of the mandate, here.
Time has run out for him to sue Emily Willingham, as well. Oh, how humiliating.
^ Here, that is.
What is that fee for? (Fo fum.)
I mean….I assume he filed to proceed in forma…Wait. No, I don’t. I’m confused. What is that fee for?
Also, is it me, or does Wakefield’s argument about why special appearances were waived make so little sense that they sound like they were collaboratively written during a conference call made on Dixie-Cup telephones by a group of a people who weren’t native English speakers while extremely drunk?
It was kind of hard to follow, I thought..
I really have no idea at this point. DiNovo Price is Parrish, his attorney. Perhaps he had an outstanding balance when they cut him loose.
^ Eh, that doesn’t make sense, assuming they’re time-ordered.
According to this study measles-vaccination seems to protect against a lot more, than just measles. Alas I can only read the abstract.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/348/6235/694.short
But I believe that if the government were to cite it, zebra’s entire existence would be at its mercy.
Could be I’m missing something, though.
zebra,
Forgive me, I’ve been to busy to reply.
You have introduced a new principle unrelated to body autonomy – that government’s role should not be to protect you from your own actions. No such principle is generally accepted, and I’ll bet you can think of multiple examples in the fields of occupational safety and health, vehicular travel, and various laws regarding alcohol. To date these have not put your entire existence at its mercy, the slope has not slipped, and it is not rational to consider such actions as a class as a threat.
You also misconstrue the point of vaccination which is not to protect you from yourself, but to protect you from others. In this case, the “others” are those people you come in contact with who are contagious with a vaccine preventable disease.
You may ask whether the government can make you take an action to protect yourself from others. The answer, of course, is yes. The most obvious example would be screenings at the airport. A less obvious one is requiring you to pay taxes to provide a police force and legal system – how fair is it that you, as a law abiding citizen, have to pay your money so that your government can protect you from criminals?
Now, I suppose that concept could, in theory, be abused. If someone were to threaten you with a knife, a particularly fast runner would have a better chance of escaping unhurt and un-robbed than someone in bad physical condition. An extension of the concept that the government can require you to take actions to help protect you from others might well be to require, say, physical education in schools.
@THEO
Just in case others didn’t make this clear, there is no evidence for any of this. There are, to date, no life processes that have been observed that cannot be adequately explained without resorting to an unknown, unobserved “someone or some intelligent energy source or some non-material force or inborn power”. None.
If you ever find either something that requires such a “someone or some intelligent energy source or some non-material force or inborn power” or you find some evidence for same, please share.
You also misconstrue the point of vaccination which is not to protect you from yourself, but to protect you from others. In this case, the “others” are those people you come in contact with who are contagious with a vaccine preventable disease.
You may ask whether the government can make you take an action to protect yourself from others.
This is not the basis for the states’ authority to impose school vaccination requirements in any event, even considering Prince v. Massachusetts.
^ Gah, I typed “<blockquotw>.”
THEO’s lapsing into something resembling the English of a native speaker is, of course, diagnostic of a cut and paste.
Yep, if I wanted to argue about the gaping gibbering stupidity of “intelligent energy source” or “some non-material force’ or “inborn power”, I would go directly to the source at Genesis Chiropractic, and argue with the organ-grinder.
I guess I’ve always hazily figured that the basis for that was we, the people, having ordained and established the constitution of the United States in order to promote the general welfare.
Is it, more or less?
The Preamble does not grant substantive power to the state (and the Fourteenth Amendment hadn’t been incorporated at the time of Jacobson). Rather, the states have an intrinsic* interest in protecting public health (and safety) and, therefore, the ability to exercise their police power to this end so long as they do not infringe upon the rights secured by the Constitution.
* I don’t think the “compelling interest” test showed up until the 1950s, but I haven’t looked particularly hard.
Mephistopheles,
I expressed my appreciation for your #403 because it was what I think of as serious debate– focused on the point with which you were disagreeing, and making a clear, concise, statement of your position– something I had to think about to counter. But now you are going back to the kitchen-sink disorganized and distracting norm of this blog.
So, to plagiarize you a bit, I do not choose to discuss anything but the proposition as stated.
So, is case 1 a rational starting point for a slippery slope argument, while case 2 is not?
I’m not saying whether the slippery slope arguments are correct, I’m not saying whether government protecting you from yourself is good or bad, I’m not saying anything about what the actual claim of the government is or isn’t, and so on.
Now, I honored your request not to discuss the Snickers analogy, and if you want to discuss this, please stick to the basic question.
The short answer:
Case 1 is not an attempt to save you from yourself. If it were, it might be a rational starting point for a slippery slope argument.
Slippery slope arguments are often regarded as fallacious unless there’s some evidence that the steps between points of the slope will occur.
Please tell me in what way this is not clear, concise, or focused on the argument:
Because it seems to me that disagreeing with your argument that it’s not unreasonable for her to be concerned about a threat to her parental autonomy on the grounds that a moment’s reflection would be enough to show a rational person that it wasn’t being impinged upon is the very definition of clear, concise, and focused.
Otherwise, thanks once again for the multiple concessions.
Mephistopheles,
1) “Case 1 is not attempt to save you from yourself.”
Here’s what you said:
Case 1 sounds exactly like the government wants to make you vaccinate in order to get the benefit, even though you don’t want to. Sounds like protecting you from your own bad decisions to me.
Case 1 is an attempt to protect you from the actions of others and from the environment. This is not dissimilar to the government saying you shouldn’t walk on railroad tracks.
That, frankly, is the difference between your Snickers example and this one. You stated
Note that the discussion hinges only on the presence of Snickers bars. It does not rely on the presence of some other condition in the environment or actions by the other children.
Digression, which you are free to ignore: given lunchroom dynamics it may well be that the child never actually eats all three Snickers bars. The child may well trade them for a sandwich, a pack of peanuts, and fruit. The child may well brush his/her teeth following eating the Snickers bar, which would at least partially negate the “rot your teeth” argument (and possibly mitigate argument 2 as well).
Mephistopheles,
“Case 1 is an attempt to protect you from the actions of others and from the environment….
….This is not dissimilar to the government saying you shouldn’t walk on railroad tracks.”
That makes no sense at all. If the government is saying I shouldn’t walk on railroad tracks, the government is protecting me from my bad decision to walk on railroad tracks. Case 1.
What do others have to do with it?
If the justification is to protect public health, that’s case 2. You seem to be losing track of your own argument.
No… the government is protecting the railroad, the insurance companies, and the local EMS units from your bad decision. You’ll be dead and safe out of it.
The entire digression is pointless, and the railroad prong particulary so: the only laws in this respect are those of trespass.
Z. is perseverating solely because he sniffs “scoring a point.” It’s a fantastically stupid one, because vaccine requirements are not predicated on parens patriae, which itself triggers due process requirements.
This has played out exactly like the last two appearances: he knows nothing whatever about the antivaccine crowd but figured he’d pop in to Provide The Solution anyway, because First Principles!!! Unfortunately, it was prima facie even worse than the status quo (as highlighted by the silent emendation to include “sans children”) and logistically preposterous – to the point of offering more reason to be paranoid about privacy – so merey started jabbering about his personal autonomy (“you are simply trying to go back to your already refuted claim that I was talking about vaccination”) and is now reduced to insisting that a counterfactual scenario provides a rational basis for a slippery slope argument.
^ “so he merely”
@#549 —
In itself, your bad decision can’t hurt you and/or anybody and/or anything else. A train running you over, on the other hand, might do all three.
The latter is what keeping you off the tracks protects you (and/or others) from, therefore. .
I mean, per the example, the government is not saying you shouldn’t decide to walk on railroad tracks. It’s just saying you shouldn’t do it.
Again, it’s the generally minor crime of trespass. There do exist more salient intrusions upon AUTONO-MEEE!
For example, Ohio Rev. Code § 4511.47. Whatcha ya gonna do if I carry a white cane and wear sunglasses?
What next, brightly colored canes?
^ Eh, screw it, I’ll try to fix that one, because the due respect of sophomorism is at stake.
—–
Again, it’s the generally minor crime of trespass. There do exist more salient intrusions upon AUTONO-MEEE!
For example, Ohio Rev. Code § 4511.47. Whatcha ya gonna do if I carry a white cane and wear sunglasses?
What next, brightly colored canes?
Nope, the slightest understanding of the legal basis is the “kitchen-sink disorganized and distracting norm of this blog,” warranting an embarrassingly childish demonstration of asshurt.
NobRed – are you still playing smokescreen games. The thread is about the tired old chestnut of vaccination pro anti.
We all know that the ‘evidence’ for vaccination is, as the ex editor of the British Medical Journal has said, has an evidence base stance – peer reviewed medical research – that is effectively nonsense and a sacred cow ready for slaughter.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientific-peer-reviews-are-a-sacred-cow-ready-to-be-slaughtered-says-former-editor-of-bmj-10196077.html
Yes we know that some people do actually believe in the Resurrection and chocolate eggs but they aren’t really scientists. I am proudly antivaccination because there isn’t any evidence for its efficacy. It is the logical position to take. I will not base my stance on the study of bovine entrails. You are welcome to debate the true date of Easter as long as you like. Just use your own tissues…………………
johnny,
“We all know that […], <a href="“>as the ex editor of the British Medical Journal has said,” (FTFY):
“Three million children die every year in poor countries from diseases that can be prevented by vaccination.” Krusty Krab
So citation needed. If it’s one of those peer reviewed medical comics – it isn’t worth the paper it is written on.
Here is what the CDC say about deaths from poor sanitation. It leaves your Kindergarten stat in the blocks
Disease & Death
An estimated 801,000 children younger than 5 years of age perish from diarrhea each year, mostly in developing countries. This amounts to 11% of the 7.6 million deaths of children under the age of five and means that about 2,200 children are dying every day as a result of diarrheal diseases 4.
Unsafe drinking water, inadequate availability of water for hygiene, and lack of access to sanitation together contribute to about 88% of deaths from diarrheal diseases 1.
Worldwide, millions of people are infected with neglected tropical diseases (NTDs), many of which are water and/or hygiene-related, such as Guinea Worm Disease, Buruli Ulcer, Trachoma, and Schistosomiasis. These diseases are most often found in places with unsafe drinking water, poor sanitation, and insufficient hygiene practices 8, 9.
Worldwide, soil-transmitted helminths infect more than one billion people due to a lack of adequate sanitation 10.
Guinea Worm Disease (GWD) is an extremely painful parasitic infection spread through contaminated drinking water. GWD is characterized by spaghetti-like worms up to 1 meter in length slowly emerging from the human body through blisters on the skin anywhere on the body but usually on the lower legs or lower arms. Infection affects poor communities in remote parts of Africa that do not have safe water to drink. In 2012, 542 cases of Guinea Worm Disease were reported. Most of those cases were from Sudan (96%) 11.
Trachoma is the world’s leading cause of preventable blindness and results from poor hygiene and sanitation. Approximately 41 million people suffer from active trachoma and nearly 10 million people are visually impaired or irreversibly blind as a result of trachoma 12. Trachoma infection can be prevented through increased facial cleanliness with soap and clean water, and improved sanitation.
Prevention
Water, sanitation and hygiene has the potential to prevent at least 9.1% of the global disease burden and 6.3% of all deaths 1.The impact of clean water technologies on public health in the U.S. is estimated to have had a rate of return of 23 to 1 for investments in water filtration and chlorination during the first half of the 20th century 5.
Water and sanitation interventions are cost effective across all world regions. These interventions were demonstrated to produce economic benefits ranging from US$ 5 to US$ 46 per US$ 1 invested 6.
Improved water sources reduce diarrhea morbidity by 21%; improved sanitation reduces diarrhea morbidity by 37.5%; and the simple act of washing hands at critical times can reduce the number of diarrhea cases by as much as 35%. Improvement of drinking-water quality, such as point-of-use disinfection, would lead to a 45% reduction of diarrhea episodes 7.
In order to meet the United Nations’ Millennium Development Goal 13 to halve the proportion of people without sustainable access to improved drinking water and basic sanitation by 2015:
An estimated 784 million people will need to gain access to an improved water source.
o An estimated 173 million people on average per year will need to begin using improved sanitation facilities (accounting for expected population growth) 2.
Even if the United Nations’ Millennium Development Goal 13 for improved drinking water and basic sanitation is reached by 2015, it will still leave:
An estimated 790 million people (11% of the world’s population) without access to an improved water supply.
An estimated 1.8 billion people (25% of the world’s population) without access to adequate sanitation 15.
* An improved water source is defined as water that is supplied through a household connection, public standpipe, borehole well, protected dug well, protected spring, or rainwater collection.
Did you notice – VACCINATION NOT MENTIONED ONCE!!!!!
It also doesn’t mention car crashes even once. Does that make standing in the highway safe.
It’s a page on water sanitation so vaccination isn’t an appropriate topic.
Vaccination has it’s place but so does public health initiatives like clean water as there are lot of diseases out there, and probably far more than we know will depress your immunity for a few months to a few years rather than being designed to make humans healthier in all ways.
johnny,
I linked to the source you dingbat; it’s a quote from your hero Richard Smith.
Those “Walk” and “Don’t Walk” signs at intersections, for example. I mean, first they deem me to be potentially non-ambulatory, a priori. Then they deem me to be potentially ambulatory, a priori. It’s very invasive.
Besides, it’s my right to decide when and how I cross the street, dammit.
Okay, anyone else see the irony of johnny using the CDC as proof of one thing, but not another? How about using PubMed articles to support his position, while at the same time saying all PubMed published research is fraudulent?
Cognitive-dissonance much?
Lower-case johnny, vaccine syringes are not filled with pixie dust dissolved in water from the Holy Grail. They’re not magic, and nobody has ever argued that proper vaccination would save everybody from all the diseases and remove them from need of water and sanitation, because that’s a really stupid thing to argue. Do you think that you’re scoring a point against pro-vaccinators by rebutting stupid arguments that nobody makes while ignoring all rebuttals to your own generally-false-yet-bulldoggishly-reiterated claims?
[reads through all 559 comments]
Yes… yes, you do. Wow.
I took part in FIRST Robotics in high school. One year, my group tried to assemble a number of varied and most auncient pieces of leftover wood into a simulacrum of the “goal” so that we could practice scoring once our robot was complete. All went well until we laid the final piece over the top and tried to attach it, only to find that nothing could penetrate that sap-forsaken chunk of wood. It turned aside all nails and even melted the tips of two drill bits without showing a mark on its dully gleaming surface before we turned to duct tape as our last hope.
A friend of mine reverently named that omnipotent old two-by-four “The God Wood,” and I was reminded of it by certain commenters on this thread, on whose beliefs no information or argument can leave an impression. Nonetheless, I always learn things from the commenters who take the time and energy to push back, when I have the wherewithal to follow a thread, so thank you to all here except the obvious few. Cheers.
This would imply that Philip Hills had any appreciable cognitive equipment to begin with.
Perhaps you should come to the Netherlands. I often seem to be the only one waiting, if the sign says don’t walk.
Theo, your evidence that this protocol is more effective as a treatment for arthritis than Enbrel would be what, exactly? Be specific.
Which diseases, and what evidence demonstrates they actually can be reversed with diets supplements and lifestyle changes? Again, be specific.
No, they don’t. Some multi-dose preparations may contain thimerosal as a preservative but that’s not at all the same thing, any more than table salt is metallic sodium or gaseous chlorine.
In that there’s no evidence that they’re inappropriately safe, you mean? I agree.
What long term implications, and what evidence indicates these implications are associated with the consumption of GMO foods? Be specific. The ciatation you provided offers none (did you fail to note it addresses glyphosate exposure in farmworkers applying it to crops, not as a result of dietary exposure?)
FTFY.
What makes the citation ‘kapooti’? Be specific. I mean, it’s something other than the fact it doesn’t support your preferred conclusions re: the utility of fiber supplementation—right?
Citations needed, Theo: what diseases is this the root causes of?
What evidence demonstrates that because the soil does not contain the nutrients it did 100 years ago, crops grown in that soil do not supply the nutrients they did 100 years ago, and as a consequence the majority of people today are nutritionally deficient?
Johhny is schooling you people again on water and sanitation Thank your plumber not your doctor. DUH
herr doktor bimler
Sounds like THEO intends to kill his son before he’s old enough to opt for vaccinations himself. Perhaps we should inform the authorities.
Oh Really? Sorry I just dont believe the WOO you have been spoon fed. The human body IS the POWER not the drug or vaccine. Feed the body optimally and the immune system will perform. Your sketchy vaccine interventions are not necessary.
Only rigidly trained medical professionals believe what you stated. Your the same ignorant doctors who dont understand the importance of the micro-biome and the immune system when you overuse antibiotics and kill good bacteria, you never bother to ask patients what their diet contains completely overlooking the food that sustains the immune system. Dairy products are a leading cause of many health problems and inflammation in children. Instead of getting to the cause you pre programmed robots go right for the symptoms. Installing tubes in the ears for chronic ear infections, cutting tonsils out for strep throat, cutting out the appendix for appendicitis.
in 2012 researchers discovered the tonsil…is a ‘factory’ for immune cells” – specifically, for T-cells. T-cells are vital for fighting viruses and cancers caused by viruses (like lymphoma or sarcoma) and T-cells play a role in auto-immune diseases”
http://www.jci.org/articles/view/46125
“The appendix, they said, is a safe haven where good bacteria could hang out until they were needed to repopulate the gut after a nasty case of diarrhea, for example.”
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090820175901.htm
Screw it lets cut out these 2 organs out since we don’t know what they do. Where did these arrogant ideas come from? Certainly not from our understanding of the human anatomy, immune system or scientific studies.
We need the tonsil, we need the appendix both are important parts of the immune system. But wait there is more. The same medical arrogance and authority that thinks it knows how to protect the body from diseases by using vaccines is the same authority that doesn’t understand the importance of the micro biome, tonsil and appendix in the immune system? How can we trust you? Actually GFY
CHECK F*-++**NG MATE
YOU LOSE!
You are losing faster much faster than you realize.There is another health paradigm shifting right under your feet. Based on Vitalism, Life Force, Holism as my Mother calls it.
Stay away from my family and my son with your Chemical quackery and scalpels. Modern medicine and pharma based trained MD’s are dangerous to your health. Your entire reductionism premise is flawed you are losing credibility every year.
KREBBY PANTS if my son wants to get jabbed when he is an adult while traveling abroad that will be his decision but by then the science of vaccines and the dangers will have been fully exposed and a completely new paradigm will be underway. its unsustainable we are at the very early stages of a paradigm shift in health care that will take decades to be fully accepted and embraced.
What evidence do you have that would lead you to gamble your son’s life on what you surely must realize are beliefs shared by only a tiny minority of people? Vitalism is my premise and proof! without food, water and oxygen you die. How can we OPTIMIZE all 3 factors that of your life force to live abundantly and protect health. The answer does not include vaccines and drugs. Answer is found here See Mark Hyman Functional medicine. essentially based on the premise of Vtialism. All life is based on that premise. Epi-genetics is proving this conclusively. Its over ok? You lose
Its sad you doctors have no faith in the human body and think it ALWAYS needs your god-damn toxic chemical intervention…. .arrogant a-holes!
@Theo – my appendix was black, 5″ long & gangrenous when it was finally removed…..another 24 hours & I would have been dead.
Doesn’t really sound like it was okay to me.
Live by the cut and paste, die by the cut and paste.
Try thinking rather than THEOnking.
Funny how every single MD I’ve ever seen has asked about my diet, including psychiatrists.
Simple facts of biology are proof of vitalism? News to me.
Are you generally in the habit of including others in your own ill-defined “we”? It says a lot about you, really.
THEO, couple of things:
The thymus is the usual organ involved in synthesizing T-cells. This study is simply providing evidence that tonsils MAY have a role in supplementing T-cell supply if the thymus fails or is excised (a pretty rare situation). Besides, tonsillectomy is much rarer than it was 50 years ago and is done for pretty specific indications.
Appendicitis is a lethal condition if untreated. All this stuff about how it “repopulates the gut” after enteric infections is fascinating, however, I don’t believe any studies have shown any health problems attributable to the absence of an appendix. So what would you do if one of your unfortunate children comes down with acute appendicitis? As her appendix ruptures, and those “good” bacteria spread through her abdomen and into her blood stream, are you going to shout at the surgeon “But she NEEDS that!” when appendicectomy is recommended?
It’s the Royal We, of course.
It’s good to be da King, right, THEO?
@TBruce – exactly….it isn’t like surgeons are out there taking out appendix & tonsils willy-nilly…..
I.e., people who actually possess training and experience which enables them to understand and evaluate the evidence informing vaccine safety and efficacy. Why do you say that as if it were a bad thing??
What exactly does one “feed the body” of a patient who has developed AIDS as the result of HIV infection which will result ins his to “inmmune system [sic]” performing optimally, Theo? Be specific.
Theo, your evidence that the immune systems of people who have had tonsillectomies and/or appendectomy as uniformly less capable of responding when exposed to infectious diseases than people who have not would be–what, exactly? Be specific.
What food do you feed someone who has developed acute appendicitis which will lead to better outcomes than emergnecy appendectomy? Be specific.
Always happens when I trot out a ‘[sic]’…
THEO:
If you really care about immune competence in children, you might want to check this out:
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-measles-vaccine-protects-against-more-than-just-the-measles/#more-37285
It’s written by none other than Orac’s “special friend”.
THEO, the natives of Hawaii had plenty of good food and water. Why were they nearly driven to extinction by measles? If you cannot answer this question, then your premise is utterly invalid.
“KREBBY PANTS if my son wants to get jabbed when he is an adult while traveling abroad that will be his decision but by then the science of vaccines and the dangers will have been fully exposed and a completely new paradigm will be underway.”
Your privilege makes me want to puke. Let’s take measles/ Yes, let’s invent a COMPLETELY NEW PARADIGM to eradicate a disease with NO ANIMAL RESERVOIR instead of RELYING ON THE ONE THAT IS ALREADY EXTREMELY EFFICACIOUS in order to PREVENT AN AVERAGE OF 400 DEATHS A DAY in populations who frequently WALK FOR MILES and LINE UP FOR HOURS because they’d rather not suffer and possibly DIE from a PREVENTABLE DISEASE that has within recent memory HARMED OR KILLED their friends and family.
Puke, your privilege, it makes me want to PUKE.
And yeah, your son, Theo, he’s an infant? And let’s say during his gap year he decides to travel to the beaches in Accra, like so many Euro kids do. Lovely beaches, friendly people, cheap as chips for late teens and twenties. Good luck with him getting in without proof of yellow fever immunization. And no, there won’t be some COMPLETELY NEW PARADIGM in 17 years that will allow your OH SO SPESHUL SNOFLAKE to bypass that requirement.
I think we’ve already established that THEO doesn’t have any moral qualms about “sacrificing” his son on the altar of vitalism.
Hey THEO, what’s the ugliest part of your body?
To follow up on what Delphine wrote:
in the past 15 months or so, my cousin, a graduate student in architecture, got a notice that in several weeks her design group ( which is what they call them) were being shipped off to Bangladesh in order to design/ work on a new water system that was being funded by an NGO- completing said project was a prerequisite for graduation.
So she went. Many vaccines were involved.
Also, THEO, don’t brag about victories that you haven’t won. James Buchanan’s last words were reportedly “History will vindicate my memory.”
Which foods? How do you know? How do you measure how well such foods sustain the immune system? What is the evidence that particular foods sustain the immune system, and what is the quality of that evidence?
Please provide a link to the peer reviewed, replicated, high quality studies showing the existence of a Life Force.
Thanks.
you never bother to ask patients what their diet contains
Theo hasn’t been to a doctor EVAR, I take it. My APN is on my ass all the time about my diet.
JGC for Arthritis take Glucosamine (as HCI), MSM and white willow bark. cured no side effects. in harmony with the body.
You don’t need a drug for arthritis.
Methylsulfonylmethane? Theo’s guiding principle for dividing synthetic chemicals into “drug” versus “non-drug” is whether it’s being sold by the supplement industry.
Holism as my Mother calls it
Stupidity runs in the family.
“Please provide a link to the peer reviewed, replicated, high quality studies showing the existence of a Life Force.” mesteppedincrap
You obviously are not up to speed oh slippery one – the world of medical peer review is falling around our ears – did you not read what the ex editor of the British medical journal said about medical peer review old boy?
Most of it is complete nonsense – it is the pizza you pay for. Lack of publication in medical peer review about vital process is indeed validation of vitlalism.
I suppose you believe in the big bang and all that genetic claptrap – keep posting – like the laughing
“Which foods? How do you know? How do you measure how well such foods sustain the immune system? What is the evidence that particular foods sustain the immune system, and what is the quality of that evidence?” mesteppedinbiggershit
Well coca cola and pizza isn’t vital food, nor are twinkies – do you really need a study to demonstrate that living off highly processed food is gonna make you sick?
Oh you are a ‘proper doctor’ right, of course, I should have worked that out by the dimbutnice level of question.
raw fruit and veg are good………………….
“Your privilege makes me want to puke. Let’s take measles/ Yes, let’s invent a COMPLETELY NEW PARADIGM to eradicate a disease with NO ANIMAL RESERVOIR instead of RELYING ON THE ONE THAT IS ALREADY EXTREMELY EFFICACIOUS in order to PREVENT AN AVERAGE OF 400 DEATHS A DAY in populations who frequently WALK FOR MILES and LINE UP FOR HOURS because they’d rather not suffer and possibly DIE from a PREVENTABLE DISEASE that has within recent memory HARMED OR KILLED their friends and family. Puke, your privilege, it makes me want to PUKE.” the delphie one
What a pile of anecdotal tosh. You cannot include measles deaths from 3rd world countries with 1st world as part of the same cohort for you appeal to emotion. 3rd world measles deaths are about malnutrition and poor sanitation. In the recent bullshit Disney outbreak in America there was not one recorded death – totally disproportionate scare mongering. What makes me puke and hose brown stuff simultaneously is a jerked up medic reading the riot act from a piece of toilet paper given to you as a an undergrad.
medical peer review is dead, you can’t quote it as anything else but a stinking anecdote. Hang your head in shame – loser
Back in moderation for quoting the fartwits on this thread who are pro poison. Looks like we are winding them up Theo, it is like shouting ‘god is dead’ in a catacomb.
I tried shouting “God is dead” in a catacomb once. Didn’t even get good echoes. However, someone did shush me.
I don’t “believe in” the big bang, but there is substantial physical evidence that can only be explained with the big bang model. As to “all that genetic claptrap”, you’ll have to be more specific.
If you don’t like peer review, please provide any evidence whatsoever that Life Force exists or is necessary to explain an observation.
From our theologist
No side effect?
The active component of willow bark, Salicin, is known to occasionally upset our digestive system and in high dose to favor stomach ulcers.
@Helianthus #594
Those of us who cannot take NSAIDS would also suffer pain, bleeding and possibly death, and if the bleeding didn’t kill me, the kidney failure (chronic kidney disease here) would. But, I’m probably wrong, because it’s “natural.”
Despite his liking to play Catholic dress-up, Phildo seems to be remarkably out of step with the Vatican.
@johnny
FTFY.
Look, if being in moderation bothers you so much, why don’t you remove one of the letters from your keyboard that is part of your favorite automoderation trigger word? I suggest H, but I, T, and S are also options.
@THEO
Schooling? Didn’t you notice that according to johnny’s numbers, vaccine-preventable diseases kill four times as many children as sanitation-preventable ones? I’m pretty sure everyone else did.
That means that you should thank your doctor at least four times more than your plumber.
Z
I am still enjoying the spectacle of Theo extolling the advantages of (a) eating only foods available to cavemen, the all-natural Paleo diet*, and (b) gulping down pill-bottle-fuls of synthetic chemicals like MSM until one rattles.
He also bangs on about the “building blocks of life”, meaning perhaps that the diet must be further augmented by eating Lego.
* Or being Theo, the PALEO diet.
Philip Hills seems to be remarkably in step here
I can’t say the same about the cinematographer.
I know I’ve already played what about the real world? with Z.’s solemn corpus, but the first comment on Gamondes’ Capitulum VII is a standout:
“[E]veryone is treated equally, and it is a community activity.”
(“Results might be interesting; we [sic] could do a study on compliance.” [Meaning of difference from noncompliance unspecified.])
^ “VIII“
I’m waiting for him to replace two washers. I doubt that anyone would trust a plumber with the stack proper.
In other news, D. medinensis eradication has had bugger all to do with plumbing.
The human body IS the POWER not the drug or vaccine. Feed the body optimally and the immune system will perform.
That makes no sense. What happen if food is drug? what happen if herbal is drug?
Installing tubes in the ears for chronic ear infections, cutting tonsils out for strep throat, cutting out the appendix for appendicitis.
Yes. Tubes work. Tonsil, don’t know but a number of peoples including your’s truly (myself…) got their removed without any issues. Appendix; mine tried to kill me before getting removed. Did you know that having a too strong immune system can kill you in a frigg*n h*ll of a heartbeat? I do know that from personal experience (no citation because I don’t need any for you not disregard my experience). Of course, I could have kept my appendix but then, does it make a difference in my daily living? you be the judge 🙂
We need the tonsil, we need the appendix both are important parts of the immune system.
Ok, do tell me why I live successfully without any of them?
arrogant a-holes!
projection here?
Al
my appendix was black, 5″ long & gangrenous when it was finally removed…..another 24 hours & I would have been dead.
Don’t know about mine’s colour but they had to cut wide open (lap chole not possible) because my powerful immune system caused it to burst and throw its content into the right & left upper quadrant of the abdomen and the moment is was undergoing surgery was 36 hours after I really noticed something was wrong. and that moment something was wrong was noticed 9 day after very minor pain to the lower right quadrant.
I don’t feel pain. go figure 🙂
Al
Forgot,
Powerful immune system without having the benefit of a tonsil present 🙂
Al
The homeless guy I fed the other day seemed to think otherwise.
The homeless guy I fed the other day seemed to think otherwise.
I could echo that with the homeless inuit guy I regularly feed with 5 guy’s burgers and beer 🙂
I’ve even recruited him to work on a biochemistry degree at my alma mater to learn how to make beer and then, work for me to handle the production of beer for 2 establishment for now (potentially 500L of beer per week) going on to 20+ establishment next year (10 00L of beer per week minimum).
Al
correction, 10 000L of beer per week next year.
Al
Just to add to the others’ rebuttals of THEO’s points @569.
My sister had to have her tonsils removed. They had died and, instead of being preventers of infection, they became hosts and incubators to infection. Prior to her tonsillectomy, she suffered wheezing to the point where she needed a Ventolin inhaler and was at times quite sickly. Afterwards, no inhaler, no wheezing, and her general health improved by a fair amount.
@Alain – the surgeon figured it had been going bad for quite some time (I had stomach issues for a while, but chocked it up to stress) – I also get migraines, so my pain threshold is incredibly high (as I can continue to function when most people would be cowering in bed).
My small intestine had actually wrapped itself around the appendix to keep it isolated from the rest of my body. At the time, it was impossible for me to gain weight – I could eat entire pizzas and was still 125 lbs. I figured out, after the fact, that my body was burning itself up to stave off infection.
When the appendix finally ruptured, it was pretty bad….though the fact that it wasn’t where the doctors expected it would be, because of the wrapping of the small intestine, meant that I wasted a trip to the ER & a misdiagnosis of food poisoning.
Fun times, let me tell you.
I am not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV.
Yes, please. And by the way, that is not a proper answer to the question, “Which foods? How do you know? How do you measure how well such foods sustain the immune system? What is the evidence that particular foods sustain the immune system, and what is the quality of that evidence?”
I hope you’ll understand that I don’t take unsubstantiated diet advice from random people on the internet, even those who aren’t osteopaths in Essex. If you’re going to say that particular foods sustain the immune systems – which, how much, and how do you know?
Thanks!
the soil does not contain the nutrients it did 100 years ago, your body is deficient in lots of nutrients.
Me, I was a farm-boy once. I love hearing from inner-city eedjits about The Soil.
Well, for tuberculosis we can actually thanks Dr Pasteur. Sterilizing milk neatly cut the propagation of mycobacteria from cows to humans.
Plus, it allowed a steady supply of clean milk to reach the cities’ inhabitants. In my country, at the turn of the 20th century, free distribution of milk in schools provided to children a much-needed source of calcium, an important “building block of life”, I believe someone said.
For diseases spread through waste water, a better sewer system did help. Same with food poisoning and freezers.
Although, with diseases like measles, polio, we hit a snag. The advantages of cleaner water/food were offset by urban conditions: when plenty of people are living in enclosed spaces, a lot of germs were happy to spread by close contact rather than through circuitous routes like waste water. A plumber can’t do much to protect you from the germs brought by people you are sharing the pool with.
Especially germs who were already airborne specialists.
@THEO
So does dairy cause diarrhea, lower respiratory infection, malaria, measles, pertussis, malignant neoplasm, dengue, stroke, tuberculosis, congestive heart failure and AIDS, or should I assume that you don’t know which FOODS cause those diseases?
Having the same thing be both your premise and your proof is the definition of the logical fallacy of Begging the Question. Your answer is neither as clever nor as original as you thought.
Proof by blatant assertion, I see.
How so? The epigenome is certainly affected by current conditions (including food). How does it prove vitalism conclusively?
THEO’s starting to sound familiar. I think this is the same person who made the mistake of bragging about all the money she made selling supplements, unaware that the concept of “conflict of interest” applied to her as well.
@Gray Falcon:
You mean the one that also had a young child they were willing to sacrifice for science?
@justthestats:
The same. The worst part was that she didn’t seem to have any idea how vile her idea was.
“I’m not anti-orange! I’m pro-apple.”
@ohnny dude you crack me up thats is some entertaining writing.
JGC What exactly does one “feed the body” of a patient who has developed AIDS as the result of HIV infection which will result ins his to “inmmune system [sic]” performing optimally, Theo? Be specific.
Here is the best answer to vitalism and all of your questions. This is the paradigm I am talking about that is coming your way to topple the pharmaceutical industry and medical establishment and usher in a new paradigm. This is how you avoid appendicitis. prevent cancer, boost the immune system etc. This is how you optimize your body.
The most powerful tool you have to change your brain and your health is your fork. Food is not just calories or energy. Food contains information that talks to your genes, turning them on or off and affecting their function moment to moment.
Food is the fastest acting and most powerful medicine you can take to change your life. We call this nutrigenomics. Think of your genes as the software that runs everything in your body. Just like your computer software, your genes only do what you instruct them to do with the stroke of your keyboard.
The foods you eat are the keystrokes that send messages to your genes telling them what to do—creating health or disease.
http://drhyman.com/blog/2015/05/09/skip-the-pharmacy-and-hit-your-farmacy-for-abundant-health/#lightbox/0/
And for good measure
Mexico halts some vaccinations after 2 children die, 29 are hospitalized
http://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-americas/la-fg-mexico-vaccines-20150510-story.html
By the way I have personally helped change the minds of 3 friends not to vaccinate their babies. Guess what? Nobody is fearful, its empowering we believe in the innate intelligence and power of the human body just feed it properly. YOU however do not you put your faith in vaccines, drugs and Medical Doctors who need your submission and need your dependence on them. Wow are you people insecure. #sad
@Theo – how about some facts for a change?
“The CEO of the Mexican Social Security Institute, José Antonio González Anaya, confirmed that hepatitis B vaccines that were applied to 52 children in the community Pepper in Chiapas did not cause health complications in 31 infants nor the two deaths.
He said that so far it has been detected that there was a contamination by an external agent, a bacterium that has yet to be identified.
The official gave a press conference where he was joined by the head of the Federal Commission for Protection Against Health Risks (COFEPRIS), Mikel Arriola and Undersecretary for Prevention and Health Promotion, Pablo Kuri.
They reported that this afternoon will leave the hospital 10 children who have improved their health, although they will continue under observation 72 hours.
Continue interned in Dr. Gilberto Gómez Maza of Tuxtla Gutierrez, Chiapas, 14 children, of whom four are reported as serious Medical Center.
Gonzalez Anaya said investigations are continuing to determine the type of bacteria that contaminated the process of applying the vaccine.
Meanwhile, Pablo Kuri said immunization campaigns will continue without any problem throughout the country. This was determined by the National Immunization Council at the special meeting that was held this afternoon. “
THEO:
An ADVERTISEMENT?
To summarize: “Buy my book! Buy my supplements!”
You are a fool, and your friends are fools, too.
@ Theo
The sheep is not fearful of the shepherd. Yet one day the shepherd will cause its death.
I don’t put faith in the hammer I use, either.
I know it has limitations and try to get the best use I can out of it. I am thankful for the good work it’s doing, but I certainly don’t worship it.
How much of a markup is THEO’s source selling their supplements for?
Furthermore to drive home the point of
TOO MANY CHEMICALS ALREADY.
http://healthysustainableliving.blogspot.com/2015/05/this-family-ate-only-organic-for-two.html
THEO, do you even know what the word “chemical” means? Everything contains chemicals.
Tbruce…….its called epigenetics distilled to nutrigenomics something MD’s know nothing about! Hyman is presenting FACTS and yes he has book that provides REAL solutions to REAL complex health problems not more medications that you push.
Grey falcon Indians do not have optional nutrition ok
Helianthus you are scared just like Delphi. Nobody is going to die if they dont get jabbed. Contrary! they will do much better and that will be proven as more and more kids avoid the MYTH that you hold dear.
Lawrence I am sure they are trying to spin that story as quickly as possible. Give me a break
@ Theo
Die? Maybe not (although the parents of the young boy who died in Berlin recently would like to differ).
Getting sick and maybe having to deal with complications, scars and other sequelae? Most certainly.
I’m a microbiologist, dude. People who don’t concern themselves with microbial pathogens are fools.
The very annoying part is that, weird claims aside, you got something right: nutrition and hygiene are important.
But by saying that nutrition and hygiene are sufficient, you are like someone who claims that wearing underpants and shoes are all the clothes you need. And to top it, with your false paleo diet and vitalism, you are actually advising people to wear the underpants on their head.
Please provide the data to show that treatments based on nutrigenomics cure or prevent vaccine preventable diseases so that nobody is going to die.
Thanks.
Historical note: The American Indians were far better nourished than the Europeans. They stood on average a head taller thanks to better food.
@THEO:
So quit beating around the bush, THEO! Which specific foods, which specific keystrokes cause appendicitis, cancer, diarrhea, lower respiratory infection, malaria, measles, pertussis, malignant neoplasm, dengue, stroke, tuberculosis, congestive heart failure, and AIDS? Which specific ones cure them?
If you don’t answer with specifics at this point, I’ll have to assume that there is no answer.
Right. No medications.
Just refined chemicals, given the alias “supplements”.
Mephistopheles O’Brien
May 13, 2015
Please provide the data to show that treatments based on nutrigenomics cure or prevent vaccine preventable diseases so that nobody is going to die.
I have already covered this but the main reason death occurs in VPD is due to a number of factors Vit A deficiency and Vit D deficiency specifically. Nutrigenomics solves that problem. Also poor sanitation and hygene
Let Proper Dr Mark Hyman Explain
https://www.functionalmedicine.org/What_is_Functional_Medicine/Why/Evidence/
@Helianthus But by saying that nutrition and hygiene are sufficient, you are like someone who claims that wearing underpants and shoes are all the clothes you need. And to top it, with your false paleo diet and vitalism, you are actually advising people to wear the underpants on their head.
Are you saying Vaccines are REQUIRED? and that the human body is not equipped to handle disease? Is that what you are postulating?
”Six hundred years ago they were using forks in the Serbian court while the Germans, the Americans and the Austrians were eating like barbarians with their hands! Forks!”
”It is your ridiculous story about forks that got us into this tunnel.”
A pretty village is pretty when it burns, n’est-ce pas,
IliyaTHEO?The northwest coast First Nations were prosperous and had an enviable diet – plenty of fish and game, and a wide variety of plant source foods. They had sophisticated food preservation methods for the off season. In other words, the ideal Paleo diet. Yet they were nearly wiped out by the new infectious diseases brought in by the Europeans.
You can see the whole story at the Royal BC Museum in Victoria.
Why dont you read his article in full about Nutrigenomics. It will save your life
Justthestats
May 13, 2015
@THEO:
The foods you eat are the keystrokes that send messages to your genes telling them what to do—creating health or disease.
So quit beating around the bush, THEO! Which specific foods, which specific keystrokes cause appendicitis, cancer, diarrhea, lower respiratory infection, malaria, measles, pertussis, malignant neoplasm, dengue, stroke, tuberculosis, congestive heart failure, and AIDS? Which specific ones cure them?
Great question that is a work in progress but I think its safe to say fruits veggies lean proteins are a solid place to start.
When in Doubt, Stick with this One Rule
If it came from the earth or a farmer’s field and not a food chemist’s lab, then it is safe to eat. Like Michael Pollan, author of Food Rules says, “If it came from a plant, eat it; if it was made in a plant, don’t.” It is really that simple.
If you don’t answer with specifics at this point, I’ll have to assume that there is no answer. its evolving and very complex based on individuality
#639
TBruce
May 13, 2015
and yes he has book that provides REAL solutions to REAL complex health problems not more medications that you push.
Right. No medications.
Just refined chemicals, given the alias “supplements”.<—–EXACTLY your ignorant if you are not taking them
Even with a perfect diet, the combination of our depleted soils, the storage and transportation of our food, genetic alterations of traditional heirloom species, and the increased stress and nutritional demands resulting from a toxic environment make it impossible for us to get the vitamins and minerals we need solely from the foods we eat. (8) The evidence shows that we cannot get away from the need for nutritional supplements. (9)
That’s why you need a full complement of vitamins and minerals, and you may need to individually correct specific deficiencies, including deficiencies in chromium, biotin, vitamin D, (3) magnesium, (4) zinc, alpha lipoic acid, (5) and omega-3 fats. (6, 7)
Are you saying Vaccines are REQUIRED? and that the human body is not equipped to handle disease? Is that what you are postulating?
We aren’t saying it; mortality statistics for the past several decades say it.
@ Theo
No. You are the one saying they are not, in any way.
As a matter of fact, I got most of the childhood disease the natural way and survived. So no, vaccines are not REQUIRED.
That I am saying is that vaccines are efficient tools at helping us fight diseases.
I enjoyed the sick days away from school, and I didn’t got lasting harm from the diseases. But I was lucky. Some others weren’t. If we have the tools to protect the unlucky ones, we would be fools not to use them.
That I am saying is that it is not a either/either situation. Nutrition and vaccines each have a role in disease fighting. Different roles.
And there are situations where nutrition and hygiene are a luxury.
Would you suggest that people who are too poor to afford good nutrition should give up on vaccines as well?
Smart boy, vaccines work precisely because our bodies are equipped to handle diseases.
The bits of pathogens introduced by vaccines are used as target practice by our immune system, and as a result it becomes faster and more accurate at fighting the real version of these pathogens. Nothing more, nothing less.
You are telling me police officers have a gun and only need bullets to fight criminals, I am telling you bullets are well and good but the police officers will do a better job if they spend some time at the shooting range, so they can learn which end of the gun to point at the target.
The time spent training is not REQUIRED, but hopefully trained police officers will be faster and more accurate.
Some farmers grow castor beans. Ricin, a poison far more lethal than cyanide, comes from castor beans. Almond nuts are safe to eat, but consume any other part of the almond plant and you will likely die from cyanide poisoning. Rhubarb, if it isn’t forced, is poisonous. Do not eat potatoes if thy’re green because that means they’re poisonous.
You are very, very ignorant.
THEO:
So food will prevent all illnesses. Except that it doesn’t. So load up on those chemicals. Just the right ones, mind.
And maybe you could explain why aboriginal populations repeatedly were nearly wiped out by European diseases. I suppose it was ” the combination of …depleted soils, the storage and transportation of … food, genetic alterations of traditional heirloom species, and the increased stress and nutritional demands resulting from a toxic environment ” that did them in.
Yep. For sure.
BTW, your footnotes don’t exist. You may want to do something about that.
If it came from the earth or a farmer’s field and not a food chemist’s lab, then it is safe to eat.
Theo, have you ever in your entire life span lived in the country?
Helianthus
Smart boy, vaccines work precisely because our bodies are equipped to handle diseases.
The bits of pathogens introduced by vaccines are used as target practice by our immune system, and as a result it becomes faster and more accurate at fighting the real version of these pathogens. Nothing more, nothing less.
Nice analogy except for the fact that we are OVERUSING them. and the fact that they contain NASTY chemicals and adjutants that are a “net negative” in the body. We don’t buy into your premise that we need target practice. There is no evidence that its necessary. Thats pharmaceutical dogma Im ok with my son getting measles rather than altering his immune system artificially. Thats the flipside and another philosophy, both are up to the individual to decide whats best for their family. Ok?
Stop the medical TYRANNY show some respect to freedom for the love of god. This aint CHINA
Got any clean green vaccines? if not keep your neurotoxins away.
FTFY. Now go gather some delicious wild mushrooms for yourself.
THEO, you take in more “toxins” and pathogens breathing and eating each day than you ever would from vaccines.
Oh, and THEO. Houses and computers are artificial. Why aren’t you living under a tree, writing us messages in the bark?
THEO:
There is more formaldehyde and more aluminium salt in an apple than there is in the entire vaccine schedule. And given that the death toll from the diseases we vaccinate against have plummeted and that dying before 18, once the norm, is now rare enough to be considered a tragedy, I have to take issue with your assessment of vaccines as a “net negative”.
@THEO:
@ Theo #649
Highschool biology textbooks beg to differ. There is evidence for the usefulness of training the immune system with harmless decoys. It’s called immunity and seroconversion.
You know how you usually only get an illness once, and after this first time you don’t catch it again? That’s because your immune system learned to fight the responsible pathogen and is going to do it much faster the next time, stopping the germ before it could get a hold on your body.
Vaccines provide our immune system with this first time.
I got immunity from measles by having it once. My younger sister got it by vaccination (and a good thing, since she is more likely to have pulmonary complications, due to some birth defects).
From the point of view of becoming immune to measles, same difference, except I got to miss school, and now I’m remembering about it, had the joy of spending a few days in pajama in a darkened apartment.
As I said, I got lucky. Many children got lucky. Some are not. Ancient cemeteries are full of tiny tombs. My mom is the only survivor of 8 siblings.
AFAIK, if I was to look at the antibody content of my blood and my sister’s, I wouldn’t be able to tell if the anti-measles antibodies were produced in answer to vaccination or a true infection. Well, maybe with some complicated immunological tests.
Also, [citation needed] for your overuse/toxic content claims.
If you are talking about thimerosal, there aren’t any in MMR shots.
Dude, I’m on the other side of the planet. I’m not going to bash your door and stick needles into you or yours.
And I don’t think any American on this site really want to do that, too.
You want the freedom to not vaccinate? Fine. No problem here. But a lot of people want the freedom to send their children to places where the risk of catching some annoying diseases is at a minima. Vaccines are useful tools to minimize these risks.
If you don’t want vaccines, you are free to go anywhere else, and that’s plenty of other places.
@Julian Frost:
Yeah, but I bet you’re one of those people who thinks that child sacrifice is a net negative as well!
Oh yes, the freedom from the tyranny of responsibility, it seems…..
Anti-vaxers want their cake & eat it too – all well and good for them to make decisions for themselves and their children, but to not accept the responsibility to others that comes with that choice makes them sound just like Ayn Rand Libertarians (with all the hallmarks that come with that label).
Excellent article by Dr. Mark Hyman
Can Autism be Cured?
drhyman.com/blog/2010/05/12/can-autism-be-cured/#close
#581 JP
ты чё, сука, охуел, бля?
#659 Oops wrong phrase.
@ken – you might want to look at this first, before posting anymore:
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/?s=Mark+Hyman
I take it that THEO™ would apply the same standard to the Schaibles.
Well, that was nonsensical.
#661 Lawrence
I have no doubt that Orac is a dedicated breast cancer surgeon.
@ken:
Ты вообще говоришь по-русски? Или просто «знаешь» некоторые слова? А зачем прямо «на ты»? Мы же не друзья.
#659 Oops wrong phrase.
Well, that was nonsensical.
I don’t often try to look intelligent or blessed with a good personality… but when I do, I too start cutting and pasting random fragments from webguides to swearing in Russian!
Great Article Ken. Hyman is spot on! all of you would be wise tp consider his approach.
Frankly who the hell wants to learn Russian?
Did you miss this link about the family in Sweden? its 2 mins and eye opening. My question is how do all these pesticides in the body react with Vaccines?
http://healthysustainableliving.blogspot.com/2015/05/this-family-ate-only-organic-for-two.html
“What does vaccination supposedly do to “prepare” the body against the future invasion of a particular germ? It stimulates the production of antibodies against that germ.
Antibodies are immune-system scouts that move through the body, identify germs, and paint them for destruction by other immune-system troops.
However, since the entire immune system is involved in wreaking that destruction, why is bulking up one department of the immune system—antibodies—sufficient to guarantee future protection?
On what basis can we infer that bulking up antibodies, through vaccination, is enough?
There is no basis. It’s a naked assumption. It’s not a fact. Logic makes a clear distinction between assumptions and facts. Confusing the two leads to all sorts of problems, and it certainly does in the case of vaccination.
Furthermore, why does the body need a vaccine in order to be prepared for the later invasion of germs? The whole structure/function of the immune system is naturally geared to launch its multifaceted counter-attack against germs whenever trouble arises. The antibodies swing into action when a potentially harmful germ makes its appearance, at age five, eight, 10, 15.
It’s said that vaccination is a rehearsal for the real thing. But no need for rehearsal has been established.
And why are we supposed to believe that such a rehearsal works? The usual answer is: the body remembers the original vaccination and how it produced antibodies, and so it’s better prepared to do it again when the need is real. But there is no basis for this extraordinary notion of “remembering.”
It’s another assumption sold as fact.”
https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2013/02/05/dumbed-down-populations-accept-outrageous-vaccine-logic/
Ken never fails to disappoint when it comes to a little stupidity, arrogance, or anti-intellectualism. I did at least have a giggle break while poring over all these Bakhtin quotations.
Frankly who the hell wants to learn
Russian?@ ken
Russian people?
@ Theo
So, apart from “Eat your greens”, any useful dietary advice?
Because, that last one, I got it free of charge from the physicians and health agencies of the last 3 countries I was lucky enough to visit. This includes the USA.
OK guys -what is wrong with the nutritional approach that he used to help his patient? Not double-blind placebo controlled trial? What exactly would SBM do that would get the same results?
Reposting for all the skeptics-Excellent article by Dr. Mark Hyman
Can Autism be Cured?
drhyman.com/blog/2010/05/12/can-autism-be-cured/#close
JP You are delusional.
Ken, if you want to insult JP, you could just do it in English, rather than making yourself look like a total sh1tweasel by copy-pasting garbled phrases from Russian webpages and then blaming your illiteracy on your source for being in a foreign language.
Not currently, but thanks for your concern.
ken — autism is not a disease, it is not caused by toxins, and one child is an anecdote, not data. Could you please do a little reading in the posts and comments here and surprise us by coming up with something relevant?
How about completely undocumented, prima facie nonsensical in places, and entirely consistent with the well-know fact that developmental delay is not developmental stasis?
How do you know that Hyman’s stupid experimentation didn’t prolong the time to shedding the diagnosis?
“Furthermore, why does the body need a vaccine in order to be prepared for the later invasion of germs? The whole structure/function of the immune system is naturally geared to launch its multifaceted counter-attack against germs whenever trouble arises. The antibodies swing into action when a potentially harmful germ makes its appearance, at age five, eight, 10,..”
So what happened to the millions of children who were born before vaccines were developed? Why didn’t their antibodies swing into action?
@ Theo 669
Oh for Pete’s sake.
To start with, look up IgM, IgG, well immunology 101.
(and my bad, in a previous post I used the term “seroconversion” inappropriately. What I mean is the phenomenon where the first answer against a pathogen is made up of IgM antibodies, and during the next answers antibodies are now of the IgG classes)
To continue, there is a whole industry based on the production and harvesting of antibodies directed against specific molecules, Not just antivenom sera, but also for production of molecules able to catch and isolate something of interest for a scientist or a physician. Look up Elisa test.
A little slice of this industry is specialized into isolating little cute cells called memory B cells, and cultivating them to produce specific antibodies.
Here is an example of such enterprises. Disclaimer: I selected this enterprise by internet search with the terms “immortalization lymphocyte B”.
Research teams all over the world, including the ones in big pharma labs, are willing to pay over-inflated prices for such cells or antibodies.
Other research teams, some I met, work on using antibodies from camel or the equivalent molecules in shark, because of their special properties. Other work on producing lines of mice which express modified antibodies with human properties.
All of these works would be totally useless if 1- specific, selected antibodies did’t have a fabulous specificity and 2- the immune systems of mammals didn’t have cells whose sole purpose is to produce specific antibodies ten years from now.
But it’s all an “assumption not fact”. I guess all of these immunologist people are just sitting all day sipping coffee or whatever, and no-one noticed.
Not my fault you are too blind to learn. I hope you are not going to kill anyone with your stupidity.
#679 Shay Interesting question. My mother, who would be 108 had she lived (she died at 95) was one of 7 children, 5 who lived to their late 80’s all in good health. Born before vaccines- they had the luck of the genes, nutritional food, developement of anti-biotics, better sanitation.
@ken- Olivia Dahl had all those as well. She died of measles at age seven.
#682 Wouldn’t the term rare measles complications be a better term.
Measles notifications and deaths in England and Wales: 1940 to 2013
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/measles-deaths-by-age-group-from-1980-to-2013-ons-data/measles-notifications-and-deaths-in-england-and-wales-1940-to-2013
Let’s continue with the stupidity of known-nothing Rappoport #669, shall we?
Nothing is guaranteed in this world, save death ant taxes. And death only comes once.
We “bulk” the antibody part because it’s a part we can reach.
Still, there is more.
Antibodies are produced by lymphocytes B. In order to produce them, they need the go-ahead signal from lymphocytes T helpers.
But other lymphocytes T could be activated as well, the cytotoxic ones (the ones going against cancer cells and cells infested with viruses).
Funny how “just one department” is actually a large chunk of the immune system, the adaptive response. The whole thing will be exercised by the vaccination.
Actually, it’s not.
Cells and structures involved in non-specific immunity will be operating all the time, sure.
But cells from our adaptive response? They need to be recruited first.
Each and every one of the lymphocyte B and T cells which exits our bone marrow is only able to target one specific molecule.
There are millions of lymphocytes per millimeter of blood and lymph, and we have a few liters of these fluids. Only a few carry useful receptors against pathogens. The cell and the pathogen will have to meet if the specific immune response is to start. Thankfully, there are cells whose job is to catch flotsam, digest it and then go around showing the digested bits to all the lymphocytes they may encounter.
If the targeted molecule happens to be one of our own molecule, this lymphocyte cell will be found out in specific organs (Thymus for T-cells) and be ordered to die. If this cell didn’t meet the targeted molecule within a few months, it will die.
Cells who have encountered their target, on the other hand…
They are going to multiply. Enormously.
The stronger the interaction between the antibody and the targeted molecule, the higher the impulsion to multiply.
Most of these new cells will inflate themselves and produce antibodies like crazy. But some will remain quiescent, and will stick around quietly around your lymph nodes. Until the day their target reappears. Then the cycle starts again.
End result of a first infection/vaccination: instead of having a few dozen transient cells with a half-liking for the measles virus (or whatever) in your whole body, you will have thousands of long-lived cells. And all of these cells will have been selected for the strength of their antibody at latching onto the virus.
Hence, next time, these cells will be found more quickly, and produce antibodies very specific of the invader. Faster, more accurate.
True enough. (They sometimes used knives.) But forks are quite recent. Not so very long ago there were some who felt very much about forks as some feel today about vaccines, as a matter of fact:
@ann:
I guess I could deobfuscate that comment a little; I was in fact referencing a particularly dimwitted Serbian nationalist character in a movie, and thereby insinuating that THEO himself is a Serbian apologist/nationalist. He hasn’t seem interested thus far in countering those assumptions.
Unbelievable. You stride in here and play the expert when you don’t have a clue. This is Grade I immunology.
You really are a fool.
Okay, now I get it. You’re using Jon Rappoport as a reference.
This guy:
http://americanloons.blogspot.ca/2014/05/1050-jon-rappoport.html
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2012/07/23/depopulation-by-vaccines/
I called you a fool. I was too kind.
You stride in here and play the expert when you don’t have a clue.
More precisely, Theo is copy-pasting from some other loon playing the expert who doesn’t have a clue. But remember, it’s the other commenters who “put their faith” in scientists!
THEO:
On what basis can we infer that bulking up the rest of the immune system, through good nutrition, is enough?
Dude. Nobody ever said that vaccination was some sort of substitute for adequate nutrition. But adequate nutrition only goes so far. Wouldn’t it be best to have *both*?
Well, you would know, dude that Theo quoted. Funny you keep doing it.
“The antibodies swing into action when a potentially harmful germ makes its appearance, at age five, eight, 10, 15.”
Only if you think they can travel in time. Antibodies are developed in response to an infection; the body cannot deploy antibodies that do not yet exist against a new infectious agent. It has to learn the infectious agent, develop an antibody, and then start making it. If it can do this before the body is too weakened to continue fighting, you will overcome the infection. If not . . . well, you won’t.
Seriously, knowing all this, why the heck would anybody prefer getting immunity “the old-fashioned way”?
His standout moment for me was when he announced that Thompson had been physically removed from the CDC grounds.
My mother, who would be 108 had she lived (she died at 95) was one of 7 children, 5 who lived to their late 80’s all in good health. Born before vaccines- they had the luck of the genes, nutritional food, developement of anti-biotics, better sanitation.
And they caught all of the vaccine-preventable diseases, too. Their antibodies did not swing into action, did they?
I have some bad news for regular commenters. The person going by the ‘nym Lilady passed away unexpectedly last month. ToddW has written a lovely homage:
http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2015/05/in-memoriam-lilady.html
If you have a memory you would like to share, please do so over at Todd’s blog. He has been in touch with people who knew her in real life.
@JP
I saw the link. I just thought I’d remark on the history of table forks in western civilization. Because, you know. This thread’s been too damn topical.
As has our host:
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2015/05/13/in-memoriam-lilady/
If Ken’s mother was born “before vaccines,” she would be a lot older than 108 if she was alive today. But it’s true that being able to vaccinate against many diseases is better than only being able to vaccinate against smallpox.
More to the point, not everyone has the advantages of “good” genetics, whatever that means in a certain context. Even if they do, they may not have access to good nutrition: millions of people, including children, go hungry even in developed countries. Vaccines won’t make up for that, but vaccine-preventable diseases make it worse.
#696 Should read born before vaccines were given in the boonies with the exception of the smallpox vaccine which was the only one I received before the age of 13.
Came across the Blog and many good (exhaustive) comments here. It is very time consuming to post all this here and the Great ‘Orac” should enjoy the debate. The great Orac seems very determined to stir things up here. How about instead of chasing the “snake oil salesman” of which I am sure there are few out there on the other side of vaccinations, why not offer something that pushes the debate forward instead of placing politics into medicine of which it has no place. Maybe offer your winded writing to actually “answer” lingering questions. Such as: Why are the CDC figures always “so” lagging behind? Best I see, this stats are from 2010…. yes 2010. Does it take much effort for the CDC to compile data like this? I think not, and the Great Orac, if you have a plausible answer to that I have not seen ( please do share). Are they simply over worked? Underfunded? Their computers do not talk to each other? Have heard that all before from so many Govt. agencies. Maybe their Hard Drives crashed. Yes, I think maybe that could be it. Cannot get this data from the thousands of Hospitals and doctors across our country on an ongoing/ incoming basis? Yes, please do comment. Right now the CDC shows that the ASD prevalence rate is 1 in 68…. repeat 1 in 68. Their own site. This is an extremely high unacceptable number in “any” medical condition would you not agree? Any business model, or any metric of which we would judge “anything”. Except winning a lottery in which case it would be good. So, if the stats are from 2010, and the Bell Curve has been going “UP”…. don’t say you cannot deny this…. then how and why? What are the linking factors of different countries that are inclusive to the bell curve spike upward? Again, 1 in 68 is absolutely shocking on it’s own and the data appears to be 4 years old. In fairness I have not read this whole thread or your other postings, but seem to lean towards what you call maybe “truthers” with a little politics thrown in.If however there is shilling going on for one side of the other instead of finding ( not commenting) on what is “not” causing something, then “all” is a waste of time. I take oh great Orac, that you “are” stating that there “is not ” and “never could be” anything in current vaccine compounds that could trigger a negative effect in humans? That every compound, process and delivery is perfectly correct and helpful 100 % of the time? Pretty bold statement if so. I am sure many comment who do have (or know) someone with Autism disorder whether mild or severe would like the conversation to contain what “is ” causing” ASD rather than your pesky commentary on what is not. At 1 in 68, sure you have crossed paths with a child inflicted with ASD . If the curve goes up anymore, one city block could contain a child with some form of ASD. A child that will struggle his whole life, a parent that will struggle with them at a high cost both emotionally and financially. A child turning into an Adult who will never marry statically. Never produce children for the most part. Thus, a child who will never generationally go forward. You may also feel that this would reduce the carbon footprint in lockstep some say so sorely needed, and help with the population overall a little at a time. Bold statement….? You bet. Great Orca…………could this be something to consider in your oh so wise opinion.
Tbruce
Unbelievable. You stride in here and play the expert when you don’t have a clue. This is Grade I immunology.
You really are a fool.
Its an assumption that is not withstanding scientific scrutiny WTF are you talking about? Its an old archaic idea that was great 60 years go but NEW science is here to take its place but the pharmaceutical cartel wont let you find out. The drug industry is the “biggest obstacle to world health” and since then, numerous books have been published describing the devastating impact that this organized fraud has on people and societies around the world.
TBRUCE hey buddy wake the up bruh you have been duped
Calli Arcale
On what basis can we infer that bulking up antibodies, through vaccination, is enough?
On what basis can we infer that bulking up the rest of the immune system, through good nutrition, is enough?
“its an emerging science and paradigm that will change the world in due time. Maybe if we could do a study with unvaccinated kids and optimal nutrients we could find out. But no the medical mafia/cartel in this country dictates that it would be unethical to do such a study? STFU
Real meaning we don’t want you to find out that being unvaccinated is significantly superior. We must control ALL aspects of healthcare because if the american people found out it would create mistrust in other pharmaceutical dogma that we perpetuate. Like are phony solution to cancer Chemotherapy Etc and on and on. So………..
YOU WILL FOLLOW OUR VACCINE PLAN.
Dude. Nobody ever said that vaccination was some sort of substitute for adequate nutrition. But adequate nutrition only goes so far. Wouldn’t it be best to have *both*?
it would be great to have both if in fact vaccines were not so problematic. Containing awful ingredients-toxins and tricking the immune system leading to allergies and autoimmune diseases etc.
Thats the Achilles heal of this medical intervention. You can’t have immunity to all these disease with out a COST.
Nothing is free in life……. surely you understand that right?
You do understand that right?
THERE IS A COST get that through your brainwashed skulls.
Every single drug, every single vaccine and every single surgery comes with a cost and side effect to the human body. playing God with immune system when we don’t fully understand all aspects of it is dangerous! We are seeing that with our children now with exploding chronic disease rates. unexplained by pediatricians
Think about all of the tylenol we gave babies for decades thinking there was no cost or side effect?
After controlling for numerous factors, including breast-feeding, antibiotic use and parental smoking, they found that children given acetaminophen before age 1 had an almost 50 percent increased risk for asthma, eczema and allergy compared with those given none.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/07/health/research/07chil.html
OOPS sorry we damaged your children with this benign Tylenol.
Same story with vaccines They are dangerous to your long term health PERIOD
Seriously, knowing all this, why the heck would anybody prefer getting immunity “the old-fashioned way”?
YES give my son measles mumps rubella ETC Build that innate immunity. I will pump him up with 5000 MGs of Vit C and an arsenol of other nutrients and BEHOLD the power of the human immune system in action. sure it would be scary to watch my son suffer but it would be worse if he got cancer or Lupus or Asthma etc
Here is the difference between our philiosphies
YOU believe in external toxic medical interventions I believe in the power of human body. It will perform when given the proper building blocks. Its vastly more powerful than any drug or vaccine or arrogant fucking doctor who knows nothing about nutrition.
Maybe just maybe this will protect him from cancer one day.
Came across the Blog and many good (exhaustive) comments here. It is very time consuming to post all this here and the Great ‘Orac” should enjoy the debate. Seems very determined to stir things up here. How about instead of chasing the “snake oil salesman” of which I am sure there are few out there on the other side of vaccinations, why not offer something that pushes the debate forward instead of placing politics into medicine of which it has no place. Maybe offer your winded writing to actually “answer” lingering questions. Such as: Why are the CDC figures always “so” lagging behind? Best I see, this stats are from 2010…. yes 2010. Does it take much effort for the CDC to compile data like this? I think not, if you have a plausible answer to that I have not seen ( please do share). Are they simply over worked? Underfunded? Their computers do not talk to each other? Have heard that all before from so many Govt. agencies. Maybe their Hard Drives crashed. Yes, I think maybe that could be it. Cannot get this data from the thousands of Hospitals and doctors across our country on an ongoing/ incoming basis? Yes, please do comment. Right now the CDC shows that the ASD prevalence rate is 1 in 68…. Repeat 1 in 68. Their own site. This is an extremely high unacceptable number in “any” medical condition would not all agree? Any business model, or any metric of which we would judge “anything”. Except winning a lottery in which case it would be good. So, if the stats are from 2010, and the Bell Curve has been going “UP”…. don’t say you cannot deny this…. then how and why? What are the linking factors of different countries that are inclusive to the bell curve spike upward? Again, 1 in 68 is absolutely shocking on it’s own and the data appears to be 4 years old. In fairness I have not read this whole thread or your other postings, but seem to lean towards what you call maybe “truthers” with a little politics thrown in. If however there is shilling going on for one side or the other instead of finding (not commenting) on what is “not” causing something, then “all” is a waste of time. I take it as moderator, that you “are” stating that there “is not ” and “never could be” anything in current vaccine compounds that could trigger a negative effect in humans? That every compound, process and delivery is perfectly correct and helpful 100 % of the time? Pretty bold statement if so. I am sure many comment who do have (or know) someone with Autism disorder whether mild or severe would like the conversation to contain what “is ” causing” ASD rather than your pesky commentary on what is not. At 1 in 68, sure you have crossed paths with a child inflicted with ASD . If the curve goes up anymore, one city block could contain a child with some form of ASD. A child that will struggle his whole life, a parent that will struggle with them at a high cost both emotionally and financially. A child turning into an Adult who will never marry statically. Never produce children for the most part. Thus, a child who will never generationally go forward. You may also feel that this would reduce the carbon footprint in lockstep some say so sorely needed, and help with the population overall a little at a time. Bold statement….? You bet. Could this be something to consider in your oh so wise opinion.
@#700
“In fairness I have not read this whole thread or your other postings”
Then maybe before taking the time to expend 604 words, you should have.
@THEO
“and an arsenol of other nutrients” It’s ARSENAL. Thank you.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/53/Arsenal_FC.svg/870px-Arsenal_FC.svg.png
THEO, Mr Dunning and Mr Kruger would like a word.
Noah:
You no doubt have some good questions, but they are hard to make out in the midst of that spew. Take some time, finish reading this post and the comments, and follow the links. Then, ask your questions clearly. That would really help.
johnny
May 11, 2015
“Your privilege makes me want to puke. Let’s take measles/ Yes, let’s invent a COMPLETELY NEW PARADIGM to eradicate a disease with NO ANIMAL RESERVOIR instead of RELYING ON THE ONE THAT IS ALREADY EXTREMELY EFFICACIOUS in order to PREVENT AN AVERAGE OF 400 DEATHS A DAY in populations who frequently WALK FOR MILES and LINE UP FOR HOURS because they’d rather not suffer and possibly DIE from a PREVENTABLE DISEASE that has within recent memory HARMED OR KILLED their friends and family. Puke, your privilege, it makes me want to PUKE.” the delphie one
What a pile of anecdotal tosh. You cannot include measles deaths from 3rd world countries with 1st world as part of the same cohort for you appeal to emotion. 3rd world measles deaths are about malnutrition and poor sanitation. In the recent bullshit Disney outbreak in America there was not one recorded death – totally disproportionate scare mongering. What makes me puke and hose brown stuff simultaneously is a jerked up medic reading the riot act from a piece of toilet paper given to you as a an undergrad.
medical peer review is dead, you can’t quote it as anything else but a stinking anecdote. Hang your head in shame – loser”
Why am I not surprised that the point I was making went right over your angry little head. The fact that some privileged, ignorant tool thinks we should or will invent a “COMPLETELY NEW PARADIGM” when there are people dying for lack of access to the PARADIGM THAT ALREADY WORKS is beyond your entitled brain as well, apparently.
Unfortunately, my experience in the field isn’t anecdotal. I’d give you the list of everywhere I’ve been and the damage I’ve witnessed from VPDs, but it would be a waste of my time.
Theo @625
Your “best answer” isn’t an answer at all-it ignores the direct question you were asked.
I’ll repeat it:
What exactly does one “feed the body” of a patient who has developed AIDS as the result of HIV infection which will result ins his to “inmmune system [sic]” performing optimally’? Be specific.
Quite the contrary: per the WHO, worldwide in 2013 145,700 died because they contracted a measles infections. That works out 400 deaths a day of people who ‘didn’t get the jab’
Noah:
Amazing to see so much ignorance packed into such a short sentence. The CDC has to gather and report data from around a country of hundreds of millions of people. It can take a very long time to gather, verify, process, and render into a readable format. It’s like you don’t know the first thing about data analysis.
Autism is not a medical condition. And no, I wouldn’t agree. 9% of the population has asthma and approximately a third of all people are short sighted.
Aspie here. And I have an official diagnosis from a psychiatrist. And you’d be wrong about a lot of things. I don’t find Orac’s commentary “pesky”. As for what causes autism, the evidence points very strongly to a genetic cause. In fact, if you met my father you’d know why I’m an aspie.
One last thing: that 1 in 68 statistic is just the rate of diagnosis. I doubt very much that the true rate of autism is increasing, and that broadened diagnostic criteria, diagnostic substitution, increased awareness and previous underdiagnosis are the real reasons for the supposed “increase”.
@ken
My grandfather would be 115. He was born into an upper middle class family in West London, the youngest child of 12. They had a summer home in the bucolic countryside with a lovely vegetable garden, plenty of good food. He was breastfed until he was 2 years old. Healthy, happy, prosperous family.
He was the only boy to survive childhood. 4 of 12 died, not including the one stillborn due to postdates. Scarlet fever took two. TB took his mother at the age of 44, two years after the birth of her last born.
Oh, those golden days of yonder.
Theo, your evidence that we are all-caps OVERUSING vaccines would be…what, exactly?
Your evidence that any of the ingredients in vaccine formulations are harmful at concentrations acheivable by routine vaccination such that the risk associated with being vaccines exceed the risk associated with remaining vulnerable to infection by the disseases they protect against (i.e., ‘are a net negative in the body’) would be…what exactly?
Be specific. I mean, you do actually ahve some-right?
JGC looks like nature has a solution to Aids as well. Imagine that no need for drugs. Now of course the research is hard to develop when only the pharmaceutical industry is in control.
Black Seed Extract ‘Cures’ HIV Patient Naturally
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/black-seed-completely-cures-hiv-case-study
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/38-natural-alternatives-hiv
@theo – please feel free to step up & be part of the double-blind study.
JGC Theo, your evidence that we are all-caps OVERUSING vaccines would be…what, exactly?
Exploding rates of chronically sick children that cannot be explained by the medical establishment. However accurately explained by defecting Medical Doctors and scientists that don’t adhere to your official answers. Um your Pharmaceutical model that you worship is not God and all knowing Ok?I know thats hard for you. But for the rest of us we are not buying it. We what answers not excuses and mysteries capeesh?
I believe the use of all those single quotes ably demonstrates you are perfectly aware Orac has made no such claim.
How exactly have you established that those ‘exploding rates’ are due to the overuse of vaccines, Theo? Be specific.
Delphine#708 You are conflating what I said and taking it out of context. I do not think vaccines are the greatest achievement. I think SBM medicine has made greater achievements. My father died at 59 from early rheumatic fever and untreated hyperthyroid condition. My aunt lost 2 babies because of an RH-incompatible factor. My aunt had a brain damaged child from lack of oxygen at birth.
There are no vaccines for Scarlet fever or TB. Antibiotics were in full use only after WW2. Certainly not the good old days but posters often exaggerate the importance of vaccines. The majority died from other causes in childhood; rotavirus is often indistingushible from norovirus without lab testing.
Theo, when the evidecne you offer feels the need to place the word cures in single quote, and is published on a website that offers a standard quack miranda (“This article is not intended to provide medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of GreenMedInfo or its staff”), then….well, even you must be able to see the problem with your
evidence’.
Then again maybe your problem is that you can’t.
JGC
May 14, 2015
Exploding rates of chronically sick children that cannot be explained by the medical establishment.
How exactly have you established that those ‘exploding rates’ are due to the overuse of vaccines, Theo? Be specific.
How about you answer that question? What is cause it and dont say better diagnosis and screening. Be specific…. What is CAUSING this increase?
THEO:
Citation needed that the rates of chronic illness are “exploding”.
@ Theo
Ah, the alt-med dualism.
A natural molecule sold by Big pharma = drug
A natural molecule sold by Theo = not-drug
And then he talks about “pumping his son with 5 MGs of vitamin C”.
What do you think digitaline, morphine, curare, insulin are?
Its a damn good thing I am a visionary and don’t conform. I always ask questions. and question authority. its served me well
I am light years ahead of you guys in this new future of healthcare its stunning.
what would those great achievments be, ken? The only one that I can think of off the top of my head that comes close might be the development of surgical anesthesia, but I seriously doubt that comes close to saving as many lives as does vaccination (the WHO estimates that measles vaccination alone prevents between 2.5 and 3 million deaths every year).
#716 indistinguishable
#722 “estimates” is the operative word here. Many many survived Ebola in the 3rd world A very hardy immune system indeed. (Yes I know many died)
Explain how all those people survived Ebola- t cell counts etc.?
It’s stunning alright. I nearly pass out from laughing so hard reading your stuff.
JGC #722 you have just displayed incredible ignorance by that statement-the only thing you can think of is anesthesia.
“How about you answer that question? What is cause it and dont say better diagnosis and screening. Be specific…. What is CAUSING this increase?”
Non-responsive–I’ll repeat my question:
How exactly have you established that those ‘exploding rates of chronically sick children that cannot be explained by the medical establishment’ are due to the overuse of vaccines, Theo? Be specific.
Ken, your post also is non-responsive. i’ll repeat the question I asked you:
What achievements has science based medicine realized that you believe are greater than safe and effective vaccination?
Surely you had something in mind when you first voiced the opinion that it had.
ken, you said: “My mother, who would be 108 had she lived (she died at 95) was one of 7 children, 5 who lived to their late 80’s all in good health. Born before vaccines- they had the luck of the genes, nutritional food, developement of anti-biotics, better sanitation.”
You’re extolling the virtues of genetics, nutrition, antibiotics, and sanitation. I’m simply saying that despite having tremendous advantages, my grandfather’s family was not so fortunate.
“Certainly not the good old days but posters often exaggerate the importance of vaccines” – You fail to realize the importance of vaccines. The failure is not theirs.
“The majority died from other causes in childhood; rotavirus is often indistingushible from norovirus without lab testing.” What? Diarrhoea is one of the leading causes of death of children <5. What's your point, ken? Should we say sod it to the rota vax, or what? http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.4161/hv.7.7.15511
"There are no vaccines for Scarlet fever or TB. " True on the first but you missed the point and false on the second, ken. YOU may not have been immunized against TB. Millions have, including me.
JGC, I’m not ken but I think the advent of modern obstetrics is equal to vaccines and anesthesia. But not great than.
Your “NEW” science is vitalism, right? It was an “old[,] archaic idea” back in the dark ages. Literally.
The pharmaceutical cartel forgot to suppress my philosophy of science class. Oh, and Wikipedia. And lots and lots of other sources. Pretty careless of them, really. They really should try harder if they want to get anywhere.
I saw the trailers for the movie based on that series. I skipped it because the plot seemed hackneyed and unbelievable. But people liked Twilight so there’s obviously a market for that kind of stuff.
How insidious of them to convince the nations of the world to agree that they shouldn’t allow experiments in any branch of science on children where there was a serious chance of harm to the child. Terrible stuff, really. I’m sure they knew that sixty years later it would be a great excuse for why they can’t be bothered to subject children to diseases that maim and kill for science, even if the parents want them to! Great planning ahead on their part, and no doubt had nothing to do with the appalling* atrocities committed in the name of science that had been brought to light at about that time.
Not doing a good job at that one either. I’m pretty sure you can think of drugs that have been withdrawn from the market, which wouldn’t have happened if your conspiracy theory was real.
Please list the toxins present in vaccines, why they are there, what they are there for, and what the consequences would be if they were eliminated. Please also demonstrate you know what the word “toxin” means by leaving out of your list other toxic substances.
Otherwise I’ll have to assume you don’t know what you’re talking about.
I’ll assume that means that “natural immunity” to those diseases comes with a COST.
What are the costs to eating vaguely-defined good foods and taking lots of supplements? Nothing is free in life, you know.
Unless you can write a short paragraph explaining the pros and cons of that interpretation of the evidence, as well as at least two other interpretations, in enough detail that would satisfy an introduction to research methods professor, I don’t feel like talking with you about that. It sounds to me like you don’t even know how much you don’t know about study interpretation.
I take that back, slightly. I am interested in knowing why you believe your interpretation of this result, but you don’t seem nearly as interested in the results of studies that don’t confirm your theories.
If it doesn’t protect him from cancer, you would have tortured him for no reason.
This is factually incorrect. My philosophy is empiricism. I believe the only way to know if something is true is to test it out and see if it works. If it doesn’t, it doesn’t matter how reasonable or nice sounding the belief is, it’s wrong. I believe that strong claims require strong evidence. I believe that the universe works in a way that is often quite predictable.
Your beliefs are nice sounding. It could be good if they were true. But you yourself acknowledge that you don’t have evidence to back them up, and there is evidence you don’t acknowledge that tends to disprove your ideas. That’s why you and I part ways.
What are the hard-hitting questions you’ve asked of people who share your beliefs, and what convincing answers have they given? Be specific, please.
Well sure, and you’re quite humble about it. Wait…weren’t we just talking about the medieval belief of vitalism? Isn’t that lightyears ahead of us in the past of healthcare, technically speaking?
Anyway, you remind me of that guy who also claimed on this site to be lightyears ahead. I don’t know if you met him, but he liked to say how he had invented this exercise that made you immortal and he liked to go around naked in winter to prove the point. Or something like that. The details weren’t important. You should get in touch with him, so that you both can get even farther ahead of us. He was willing to sell his secret for a large but reasonable sum.
* In some cases they didn’t even ask the parents’ permission before torturing and killing the children, so you know it’s got to be appalling.
Delphine #731 To win the fight against tuberculosis (TB), a comprehensive approach is needed that includes new and more effective vaccines as well as improved diagnostics and treatment. The Bacille Calmette-Guérin (BCG) vaccine developed in 1921 remains the only vaccine against TB. Unfortunately, it is only partially effective: it provides some protection against severe forms of pediatric TB, but is unreliable against adult pulmonary TB, which accounts for most of the disease burden worldwide. Although BCG is the most widely administered vaccine in the world, the number of TB cases have never been higher. There is therefore an urgent need for a new, safe and effective vaccine that prevents all forms of TB, including drug-resistant strains, in all age groups and in people with HIV.
http://www.who.int/immunization/research/development/tuberculosis/en/
ken:
I know this has been refuted already, but it warrant a second refutation. There IS a vaccine against Tuberculosis. It’s called B.C.G., and I have a mark on my right arm just under my shoulder from it.
You are pig ignorant.
ken, seriously, you’re in way over your head here. I’ve forgotten more about BCG than you will ever know – you didn’t even know it existed until 5 minutes ago – so please, don’t try to school me on efficacy, thanks so very much.
Your arrogance is as astonishing as your ignorance.
ken, you copypasta’d that from the WHO. Verbatim.
I’m speechless. That doesn’t happen much, I think I need more tea. What an arrogant bag of sh1T you are.
http://www.who.int/immunization/research/development/tuberculosis/en/
#701- was just being honest here and trying to observe this a Ping-Pong match with no winner. Alternative medicine blogs can only exist because most are looking ( some desperately) for an answer of some sort when they “are not getting any” !
#704- thanks for the little bit of positive. In the same breath “spew” is used and yes, exactly what it is. Heart felt spew. If you could pull out the good points, that would be fine. Simple questions really, and all that follow here ( and moderate) could surely handle.
#707 – wow… answered your own question here. When quoting the 1 in 68 in 2010 (which I am sure many others have) you state you “doubt” it is that high. That is the point, when you doubt, it means nothing and just an opinion. I am sure you can dilute this number down to many form/ factors of Autism severity as you choose, but still if a child has Autism ( confirmed by a board certified medical doctor stating so) this ok with you?
I know a little about data collection, but I am sure not enough. How about you? If you work for the CDC, then the Dept. is going too slow. I work around some in Pediatrics and if each new diagnosis of Autism is recorded, which it is, for every new case in every part of the country, I assume not really hard at all to gather this collective number and put on a graph like they already have? Sorry, do not buy into this comment at all. Four years between snapshots is “way” too long. If this is correct every time you might to Chuck E. Cheese, one or more beautiful children in the room will be affected. I could give a crap less if you say it is genetic or medical …… the CDC should not discriminate. Might watch what you say here…. some say vaccines mess with genetic makeup …. oops.. this that out of line as well?
I could also care less if someone take a B-17 or Selenium pill in an attempt to help their child. Seems everyone soooo critical. Go find a cure for this dreaded affliction. All of you who spend time typing away (who are you defending)? Give you this…. 1- 2000. That better? Still not good enough
Its a damn good thing I am a visionary and don’t conform
Seeing visions, like hearing voices, is not really something to boast about.
Noah:
You are a liar. I said:
I believe that the rate of autism is more or less constant. We have just got better at detecting it.
Please. Pretty please, bring back preview.
#737 Obviously- Sorry I forgot the quote marks. I gave the link to read. Sorry that the vaccine is not as effective as you thought but don’t take your anger out on me. How crude of you.
Ken, an imperfect or incomplete solution is better than nothing. People aren’t going around demanding we get rid of seat belts because they don’t prevent all traffic accidents.
You’re so predictable, ken. Please point out where I said anything about my thoughts on the efficacy of BCG, a vaccine you became acquainted with approximately one hour ago.
#737 Delphine I posted that link in #734 Sorry that the BCG is not as effective as you would like.
ken: I’ll ask you this again. Please point out where I said anything about my thoughts on the efficacy of BCG, a vaccine you became acquainted with approximately 62 minutes ago.
You didn’t even know it existed. When I pointed out that there is indeed a vaccine for BCG, you tried to school me on its efficacy. I said nothing about how effective BCG is or isn’t.
But keep trying. It’s like a race to the bottom for you, isn’t it ken?
The developement of antibiotics trumps vaccines. I’m biased.
I see. Can’t find it, can you?
Maybe you should stay on the WHO site for the rest of the day, ken. It might do you some good. You might, say, become acquainted with other lifesaving vaccines of whose existence you are unaware.
Because just like vaccination, antibiotics prevent millions of people from dying as the result of either bacterial or viral infections annually…
Oh. Wait…
#740 – Wow Liar… please, please don’t pull any punches. Could be right about that though in the fact more cases are being confirmed as the sweep is larger now. Still this belittles the Medical Doctors in the field a bit does it not, in the fact they are just catching up? In 1995 some say… have to be careful here…. 1-500. I just gave you credit for 1,500 cases earlier. Just because you work in IT, no not good enough. The CDC or Congress or someone can enact one of those little bills they are so fond which requires all Pediatricians (leave out the Hospitals) to send in data of a quarterly (semi-annual) basis on all new confirmed cases that have been diagnosed. Then you can come back and inform the doctors they are surely mistaken, and it is must be some other kind of life altering condition that they can start a “new” graph for. Just like HIPPA directives etc., these can be done. If there are over a million births a year, surely do not have record them all, just the 1 out of 68 remember? If it was not children, would not care so much…. Fibromyalgia patients are on their own. Was not really attacking you personally, but I have no interest in seeing who can “out talk” each other , cut and paste links that people ignore, and attempt to show my literally intelligence by looking up case studies and medical terms.
And by the way, this last comment: “Some people believe they have been abducted by extraterrestrials. Doesn’t mean we have to believe them” is a little passé don’t you think? Sure sounds like a Tin-foil response to a big issue. Children are not aliens.
#749 JGC Interesting article you should read-
Why Are You Not Dead Yet?
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science_of_longevity/2013/09/life_expectancy_history_public_health_and_medical_advances_that_lead_to.html
#749 JGC Dumb- “viral”
I’m wondering why ken expects us to read her links when it’s pretty evident that she doesn’t.
some say vaccines mess with genetic makeup …. oops.. this that out of line as well?
It’s not “out of line”, it’s just incredibly stupid.
(who are you defending)?
If you can’t identify whom people are defending, and have to ask, you should consider the possibility that they are not defending anyone, and that the ‘defense’ is all in your imagination.
I’m wondering why ken expects us to read her links when it’s pretty evident that she doesn’t.
She has explained earlier that she does not have time to read the links she passes on, so you cannot expect her to know whether they are relevant, or valid, or interesting. Presumably your time is less important, and the hope is that you can do the homework and give her a summary of the links’ contents.
Personally not going to read any more of ken’s links unless they’re in Russian. I suggest we all adopt this policy.
herr doktor bimler, I just have to say, you crack me right up. Thank you for making me laugh quite frequently.
Hey ken, how’s the study of BCG going? Any other decades-old vaccines you’ve learned the existence of today?
RE: the article on slate–you seem to be trying to argue because things that are not medical interventions also effectively save lives we cannot consider the development of safe and effective vaccines to be the most effective medical intervention developed. I don’t see how that rationally follows.
And re: “Dumb- “viral””, I’m a loss to understand what you’re trying to communicate by this–perhaps you could expand a bit?
Jake has a new post up, where he appears to try his hand at a little science.
http://www.autisminvestigated.com/jama-study-mmr-vaccine-autism/
I rather suspect that he took a page from Hooker’s playbook – reanalyze data from an existing study using the wrong tools and methods until you find something you like.
However, I don’t have the chops to prove this, so would one of you other minions look at this and see if I’m close?
Proper Johnny
Accept no substitutes
I think SBM medicine has made greater achievements
In #722 JGC stated –
“what would those great achievments be, ken? The only one that I can think of off the top of my head that comes close might be the development of surgical anesthesia, but I seriously doubt that comes close to saving as many lives as does vaccination (the WHO estimates that measles vaccination alone prevents between 2.5 and 3 million deaths every year).”
I suggested in #751 he read this article to put vaccines in perspective.
It was not addressed to anyone else.
Anesthesia?
#754- I was not about to feed someone an answer, just asking a question. They could have said “no one” themselves. Thanks for the Psych lesson anyway. Quite the viewpoint and somewhat correct, but this is how all the manure starts and nothing gets done.
some say vaccines mess with genetic makeup …. oops.. this that out of line as well?
It’s not “out of line”, it’s just incredibly stupid
Ok good doctor,
Let us view your white papers on the subject, as you see you too are attempting to make statements patently true (by stating they are false) and the narrative then works then to your advantage. Another classic move. When I say classic, I mean old and tired. Give us something we can use.
JGC How exactly have you established that those ‘exploding rates of chronically sick children that cannot be explained by the medical establishment’ are due to the overuse of vaccines, Theo? Be specific.
Its a very good theory backed up by defecting Medical doctors, Studies and scientists who are raising the issue ok? I never said it was the ONLY cause. I firmly believe its a contributing cause. That my belief ok.
Now please be so kind and answer my question
Its your turn. What is causing chronic disease in children?
Be specific….I am asking for the cause. Forget about the growth rate lets stick to the actual diseases and help me understand what is happening ok.
http://mchb.hrsa.gov/chusa11/hstat/hsc/pages/212chc.html
JGC How exactly have you established that those ‘exploding rates of chronically sick children that cannot be explained by the medical establishment’ are due to the overuse of vaccines, Theo? Be specific.
Its a very good theory backed up by defecting Medical doctors, Studies and scientists who are raising the issue ok? I never said it was the ONLY cause. I firmly believe its a contributing cause. That my belief ok.
Now please be so kind and answer my question
Its your turn. What is causing chronic disease in children?
Be specific….I am asking for the cause. Forget about the growth rate lets stick to the actual diseases and help me understand what is happening ok.
http://mchb.hrsa.gov/chusa11/hstat/hsc/pages/212chc.html
@Noah
Are you saying that because my child has autism my child is not beautiful?
#763 Absolutely not… saying they “are” beautiful. Sorry you took it that way. Just saying how sad it is that they have to go through this. I too, have 2 Grandkids that have it as well.
@Theo – I particularly liked this page:
http://mchb.hrsa.gov/chusa11/hstat/hsc/pages/209vpd.html
I don’t like these stats.
Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD)
Data & Statistics
http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html
And these stats-
“Data from the study showed that developmental disabilities (DDs) are common: about 1 in 6 children in the U.S. had a DD in 2006–2008. These data also showed that prevalence of parent-reported DDs has increased 17.1% from 1997 to 2008. This study underscores the increasing need for health, education and social services, and more specialized health services for people with DDs.”
http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/developmentaldisabilities/features/birthdefects-dd-keyfindings.html
Well, ken, if you don’t like the stats, we can always go back to what we did with those kids when I was in school in the 1960s…either put them in the “retard room” in a public school, or insist that they were uneducatible and throw them into an institution. Or, the last alternative – parents just keep the kids home full time and they are ignored by everyone.
I honestly don’t think there is more developmental disabilities. I could name several in my classes throughout school who were probably in that group, just not severely enough to be isolated like the one boy in my class who would throw tantrums so severe that he would toss the desks across the room, and it took the principal and 3 other male teachers to subdue him enough to remove him. Or the “weird” kids who never fit in. No, they never had diagnoses THEN. But I’d easily bet a lot of money that if they were children today, they all would.
You can’t measure things where the definition has greatly changed in 40 years by comparing years across the board.
It’s highly likely that ken didn’t read past the bit she posted, or she would realize that the “1 in 6” figure includes kids with any DD, including learning disabilities, ADHD, etc., not just ASD. Autism prevalence is listed at 0.47%.
#769 # 770 Way too too stupid answers. Neither of you are qualified to render any opinion.
Thanks ken for the citation. Now would one of you care to put forth a cause of all of these chronic diseases and DD disorders occurring in children? Beuller bueller?
Genetics, better diagnosis and screening are not valid answers.
Causes please.
@ justthestats I will get back to you. Your at the back of the bus
Mike Adams is a lunatic and homeopathy is placebo “magic water”. Yes, vaccines work. That’s about it as to the “opinions” I will post. You don’t like my links- don’t read them. Some lurker might. Resorting to demeaning invectives will have no effect on me whatsoever.
Oh one more – Dr Jay Gordon seems the most reasonable poster I’ve read on this blog in regards to vaccines and one who is actually qualified as a pediatrician.
clueless ken: “#769 # 770 Way too too stupid answers”
About that “1 in 6” figure. How much is that per a hundred. Do some simple math: one divided by six times 100% equals what?
Now look at a graph of a normal distribution. You see that within one standard deviation is 68% of the data, and in this case “population of children tested.”
Let’s see how many of that population is below one standard deviation from the mean. So here is the math: 100% minus 68%, and that result is divided by two (to exclude those that are one standard deviation above the mean).
What are the two results? Are they similar or are they different? Do you understand what that means?
ken #774 – Dr. Gordon has stated that he believes parents should follow their intuition when deciding which shots to give their kids. When my dr. told me about the Prevnar shot, my intuition was that because our son was healthy and robust, had no pre-existing conditions, was breastfed until he was 3.5, he didn’t need it. My intuition told me he’d be fine. He is our 8th child and we’ve never had a hospitalization with any of our kids.
When he was 3, we very nearly lost him to Pneumococcal Pneumonia. Emergency intubation, air transport in respiratory distress, 9 days in intensive care, “sickest child in PICU.”
One of the things that became painfully clear to me through that awful ordeal is that our intuitions can be 100% wrong, even when it comes to our beloved kids.
Let us view your white papers on the subject
“White papers”? I think those are what governments publish. I am not a government.
Gordon pushes homeopathy. See http://drjaygordon.com/alternative/earinfections-3.html
His advice on trading a cold? http://drjaygordon.com/alternative/natural-cold-remedies.html
Colloidal Silver? And you’d take medical advice from Jay Gordon? You are an idiot.
Proper Johnny
Accept no substitutes
“When he was 3, we very nearly lost him to Pneumococcal Pneumonia. Emergency intubation, air transport in respiratory distress, 9 days in intensive care, “sickest child in PICU.”
One of the things that became painfully clear to me through that awful ordeal is that our intuitions can be 100% wrong, even when it comes to our beloved kids.” Sicksuckingmooma
Nice appeal to emotion and nice anecdote. That means all vaccines must work then? We know nothing about the lead up to the Pneumonia and we know nothing about how the child was managed, are we to assume that you thought not having him vaccinated had any bearing at all on this event?
Did the child get filled with antipyretics for weeks leading up to the hospitalization, was he given antibiotics…………..
What was the child’s diet like………….there is so much missing from the context of your post I can only assume you are a plant, not one with green leaves of course.
More brown logs in a sea of urine………… let’s have some science for a change.
“Its a very good theory backed up by defecting Medical doctors,” JCB
Well doctors have been totally responsible for the looming antibiotic crisis because they hand them out to placate winging mothers apparently. How much professional discipline does that take?
Well done Theo, they do insist on polishing turds and trying to dish it up as science.
Noah @ #750:
Stick around sunshine. I DON’T pull punches, and I don’t tolerate people twisting and distorting what I say (ie lying).
Not at all. Physicians in the past did not have the tools and techniques that are available now. It’s neither belittling to say that they wouldn’t be able to detect what we can detect now, nor surprising that they wouldn’t.
Fair enough. Now tell us YOUR credentials.
Autism is typically only diagnosed at 18 months at the earliest. It’s not the case that baby pops out the womb and gets an autism diagnosis slapped on him/her. Also, there are a number of diagnostic tests that must be performed before the diagnosis is given. It’s not that simple.
Commenting on your intelligence while misusing “literally” makes you look like a poseur. Also, around here if you post a link, the “shills and minions” (as we call ourselves) won’t ignore it. One (or more) of us will click on it, read what’s on the other side and tell everyone if the linker is trying to bulldust.
Maybe, but it illustrated my point that just because somebody says “X” doesn’t mean we have to believe it. If you can think of a better turn of phrase to make that point, I’d like to hear it.
“Nice appeal to emotion and nice anecdote.”
Thanks. It happened in August 2014, so it’s all still very fresh and difficult to talk about.
“That means all vaccines must work then?“
I assumed they did, but our GP told me that Prevnar protects against ear infections. I didn’t think that warranted a shot. And I wouldn’t have thought pneumonia could be life-threatening in a healthy child. I didn’t think it was necessary.
“are we to assume that you thought not having him vaccinated had any bearing at all on this event?”
I never would have made that connection if the doctor hadn’t told me that it did. Of course, he could’ve been lying, which is what another anti-vaxxer told me.
“Did the child get filled with antipyretics for weeks leading up to the hospitalization”
No, he started a fever on Tuesday evening, which continued on Wednesday. On Thursday, he woke up gray and wheezing. I’ve always been told to give antipyretics sparingly for viral infections (which is what I thought this was).
“was he given antibiotics “
He was given IV antibiotics in the helicopter.
“What was the child’s diet like”
He’s a toddler. We get as much fruits, vegetables and protein in him as we can. Thankfully, he’s not a picky eater.
“I can only assume you are a plant”
I wish.
Thanks so very much for posting, Still Shaking Mama. I’m sure it is difficult to talk about, to say the least. It’s to your credit that you’re doing it. And I’m glad your son is all right.
Thanks, Ann. I just couldn’t let the glowing praise of Dr. Gordon go. My “intuition” failed me so many times during that ordeal. I thought the Med-Check dr. and then ER doc were both completely overreacting (small town). I almost stopped them and took him home, rather than let them start the IV. He had stopped wheezing when I put him in his car seat and said he was “fine.” He sat very quietly in the waiting room for 45 minutes and during the first exam. And then we found his O2 sats were 78, and all hell broke loose. The doctors couldn’t believe he’d only been sick for 36 hours.
He’s almost completely caught up on his shots now, as are the rest of our kids, all the way up to the 19yo! Never again!
@ JGC, Lawrence, Chris. Hairy doctor
Now would one of you care to put forth a cause of all of these chronic diseases and DD disorders occurring in children? Beuller bueller?
In 2007, the parents of 22.3 percent of children reported that their child had one or more of 16 chronic physical or mental health conditions. The five most commonly reported conditions were asthma, learning disabilities, attention deficit or attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADD/ADHD), speech problems, and oppositional defiant or conduct disorder. The least commonly reported conditions addressed in the survey were brain injury or concussion and Tourette syndrome.
http://mchb.hrsa.gov/chusa11/hstat/hsc/pages/212chc.html
Genetics, better diagnosis and screening are not valid answers.
Causes please.
Proper Johnny back in stellar mode
Lowercase johnny: When you’re reduced to making statements about excrement, maybe you should consider unconditional surrender.
THEO: Here’s another possible explanation for all those chronic conditions. You, personally, are responsible for all of them, because you practice black magic. Tell me, why should we not accept that as a possible explanation?
Well, certainly the rise of childhood obesity has contributed to increased prevalence of juvenile diabetes….studies have also shown that ADD / ADHD have been “over-diagnosed” over the years, and certain allergies can be linked to climate change because of a change in the distribution of pollen and plants over the past few decades.
Attempting to link any and all childhood conditions to a single source, despite them being completely disparate in part of the body effected and distribution among the population (there is no uniformity) makes no logical or rational sense.
You and others continue to cry “Unicorns” when the hoofbeats are mere horses…and in your case, you aren’t even at Unicorns, you’re claims fall into the realm beyond merely fanciful and down the rabbit hole in to full-blown reptilian conspiracies.
Do you mean categorically? And if so, why not?
I mean, if the evidence shows they’re factors, what invalidates them?
Julian # 782. Thanks for the replies always. No I won’t be sticking around even though interesting. Info sharing is good, but in the end, it is either one side or the other. What brought me here was a article of David attending a trade show of sorts where he utterly dismissed all there as preying on the attendees and attempting to cash in off of misery. Never considering really that some may actually be trying to offer public information that could and should be considered. Like you in another article, he threw in Chem Trails into the mix at the bottom of the page which is your version of aliens. Combining these so called conspiracies together I am sure seems appropriate to you and David out of frustration, but proves the theory that this Blog should not even exist as minds are made up. How demeaning to the issue of Autism and the like when mixed with Chem Trails and aliens. First comments were that Hospitals could not possibly gather info on 1M of births. Then stated that the diagnose occurs around 18 months, which takes the burden off the birthing hospital. Sorry, if I had the weight of the Federal Government behind me and wanted to get a closer snapshot of this number, I would get it. On 1 and 68, you said you doubted it. Even more reason to find out what the number might be and maybe not as bad as this as you allude to. Almost like you are defending and have no interest in updated numbers only why it cannot be done. I “literally” don’t care if every word is used in perfect context and you view this as a sign of intelligence. A poseur ?, I guess if I am being graded here. When things like this are said, the whole conversation is null and void. A poseur, well guilty as charged. I am not a Professor, scholar or think over highly of my intelligence as some seem to here. There are surely many other scientists other than David that spend their entire working life on these subjects, that don’t throw in Chem Trails, Aliens and the like into their “serious” discussions. I don’t care if he is Oncologist and uses the available tools that are in place. No issue there, but he seems to have an opinion on every discipline and disrespectful to others in specific fields of interest who may be actually looking for answers, alternative or otherwise.
Noah: Respect is earned, not given.
Gray Falcon,
Wise words. Noah may find the judicious use of paragraphs is a good way to start earning or at least to stop losing.
Uhhh…no, it isn’t. Perhaps you’re not aware of the definition of the word theory as used in the natural sciences (a unifying and self-consistent explanation of fundamental natural processes or phenomena that is constructed of corroborated hypotheses, and which comprehensively, predictively, and tentatively explain all observations within its scope)? The idea that vaccine overuse is asscoiated with development of chronic diseases is not only nothing other than conjecture unsupported by evidence but in fact is contrary to the body of existing studies which have addressed the anti-vax ‘too many too soon’ meme.
Thank you, theo, for explicitly admitting you have no evidence supporting your claim that overuse of vaccines is responsible for ‘exploding rates of chronically sick children that cannot be explained by the medical establishment’, and that instead it represents nothing other than an article of faith.
Re: cause of various chronic illnesses, you can find much more detailed explanations with trivial web searchs through Pubmed than I can reasonably provide in this forum. ADHD, for example, has a strong genetic component (see PMID: 21247556, PMID: 19506906 and PMID: 17679637), increased risk of ADHD is associated with environmental factors such as cigarette smoking and alcohol use during pregnancy and exposure to high levels of lead from plumbing fixtures or paint still present in older buildings (PMID: 20823730, PMID: 18245408, PMID: 19933729).
I’ll note I’ve found no evidence associating ADHD with routine childhood vaccination.
Why not, if those are the answers the evidence supports?
I’ve privded you with citations indicating the contribution of genetics to ADHD in my last post, and with respect to autism spectrum disorders a recent Danish study found “Changes in reporting practices can account for most (60%) of the increase in the observed prevalence of ASDs in children born from 1980 through 1991 in Denmark.” (PMID:25365033). The recent CDC report that noted the prevalence of ASD’s is now 1 in 68 noted explicitly that improved ability on the part of clincians to detect and accurately diagnose peole with ASD’s is a singnificant contributor to the increase.
And Noah obviously doesn’t know the difference between an oncologist and a surgeon…
Surely the increase in diagnoses of ADHD and learning disabilities of various sorts has nothing to do with the access to educational accommodations that said diagnoses can secure. And the increase in ASD diagnoses must also be completely unrelated to the various supports that such diagnoses can give access to.
Oh wait,
THEOFORK just doesn’t believe in any of that. Or something.Noah @790:
You’re new to this, aren’t you? Those people are offering autism “cures”. I’ve yet to read one that works, and many I’ve heard of are harmful, even dangerous. Bleach enemas, parasitic worms, chelation, GF/CF (which works if the autistic has a gluten or casein intolerance, but not otherwise). These people are not “trying to offer public information that could and should be considered”. They are trying to prey on parents.
You’re adorable. There are plenty of blogs that push other viewpoints. Are you going to claim that those blogs shouldn’t exist because the people there have also made their minds up?
False. I said that it takes a heck of a long time to collect and process the data from 1 million births. Stop misrepresenting what I said.
I called you out for that exact misrepresentation before. What I actually said was:
The operative word there was INCREASING. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Except in many cases those people are looking for “answers” that have already been refuted by the evidence. Vaccines and “toxins” do not cause autism, yet many “autism treatments” proffered by these people are for “vaccine damage” or “heavy metal poisoning”.
I earlier asked rhetorically if you were new to this. I now realise you are new to this.
You have so much to learn.
ken, I am waiting for you to complete the simple math problems since you claimed to be so much smarter than MI Dawn and JP (“#769 # 770 Way too too stupid answers”).
Do you even know what a normal distribution is?
Easy on ken, folks. She’s probably still immersed in discovering IPV today in light of yesterday’s revelatory BCG finding.
Lacking any particular intellectual acumen or accomplishments himself, Noah prefers to take pride in his own ignorance and/or sloppiness, so that he may accuse others of elitism.
NO.
But Smurfs are so cute!
I am asking for ROOT CAUSES. Ok? not just 1 cause.
Saying genetics is an easy way out, and not the correct answer.
Here is why.
GENES
The giddy back-slapping decoding of the human genome, has given way to a more sober view of the limits of genomics and the remarkable understanding of what we all knew intuitively–that how we live, the quality of our relationships, the food we eat, how we use our bodies, and the environment that washes over us and determines much more than our genes ever will. ~Dr Hyman
Now that we cleared that up
Sure we have better diagnosis and screening but what CAUSES kids to have all of these chronic problems. Allergies, learning disabilities, speech delay. ADHD? ROOT CAUSES As stated earlier forget about the growth rate focus on the chronic diseases. And ask
what could be causing these problems?
@lawrence Attempting to link any and all childhood conditions to a single source, despite them being completely disparate in part of the body effected and distribution among the population (there is no uniformity) makes no logical or rational sense.
Good thing you are not head researcher with that pathetic attitude myopic understanding. You make this more difficult than it actually is.
@JGC your getting warm citing cigarette smoke and lead.
Any other ROOT CAUSES?
THEO- The root cause is you, you’re a warlock.
@Gray – I agree…only a magician could come up with that kind of bull out of thin air.
His parents must be so proud.
But we haven’t cleared that upTheo, all you’ve offered in support of your claim that recognizing genetic contributions to chronic diseases is a known logical fallacy termed an argument from authority.
And I would suggest the next time you’re forced to resort argument from authority because you lack evidence to support your position, you don’t choose as that authority someone with their own entry in the Encylopedia of American Loons
http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2013/11/789-mark-hyman.html
#799 Delphine – You reek of British Colonialism and the damage to Africa. Pro Mau Mau
@Lawrence- Frankly, I’m not sure he understands that “Because I said so, that’s why!” and “Because I really, really believe it!” are good enough reasons for us to believe him.
Let’s clean that up that first sentence a bit:
But we haven’t cleared that up Theo, all you’ve offered in support of your claim that recognizing genetic contributions to chronic diseases is invalid is a known logical fallacy termed an argument from authority.
“Allergies, learning disabilities, speech delay. ADHD? ROOT CAUSES As stated earlier forget about the growth rate focus on the chronic diseases.”
Allergies are not considered part of the one in six that ken was bemoaning, since that was on developmental disabilities. While allergies are often genetic, they are not developmental disabilities.
I sincerely doubt that THEO even knows what a normal distribution is or means, and the difference between developmental disabilities and chronic diseases.
#798 Chris
I’d like to see a “normal distribution” of empathy among all of you without the self-serving snide and egotistical displays of rote intelligence.
ken, I mostly reek of wet dog. When you give 1/1000th of what my parents gave of themselves in aid of the collateral damage of said Colonialism, then I’ll start to listen to whatever you have to say on Mau Mau. In the meantime, keep up with your reading. There’s a whole world out there just waiting for you to discover it — OPV, Hib, PCV-7, MMRV, DTwP, DTaP, Td, TT…
ken you’ve mastered intradermal with BCG! Intramuscular and beyond, keep reading, I know you can do this!!1!
#812 And what exactly is your expertise?
I know all of it- and there is absolutely no evidence that it’s not too many, too soon; no one on this blog has provided the evidence that the current schedule is safe.
I’m the daughter of two physicians and granddaughter of a surgeon all of whom left the UK to work in developing countries. I work in development for a large NGO with a specialty in MNCH in SSA. I grew up in what’s now the DRC as well as a smattering of other countries, LDCs and developed. That’s your short answer. I am not a medical doctor. I’m not an expert on vaccines. I’m just surrounded by folks who are, to include two of my siblings.
You don’t know all of it, ken. You didn’t even know BCG existed until approximately 18 hours ago, a vaccine used on people since the early 20s, millions of them now, all around the world. As for the rest of your too many too soon current schedule not safe, enough. Don’t you people get tired of spouting the same old nonsense, day after day, year after year? Who spoon feeds you this garbage? If you’re so smart and “know all of it”, why are your critical thinking skills so poor as to believe this tripe?
ken, so you really have no idea what a normal distribution is or means. Because the level of intelligence and empathy on this site is quite reflective of that. There is normally distributive range between “Sid Offit’s” terrible quips about sick children, to the very often noted concern for vulnerable children on the other side of the mean.
Uhhh..you do realize that’s not how it works, right? That we can’t conclude that a casual association exists based on nothing other than a lack of evidence the causal association does not exist?
Otherwise, based on your own argument, you’ll have no choice but to accept that Theo is in fact causing all those chronic diseases by his practice of black magic, as there is no evidence demonstrating that isn’t the case.
# 800- read again if you can really see such archaic comments that your way superior mind cannot process. I was called a poseur. Definition of POSEUR. : a person who pretends to be what he or she is not : an affected or insincere person.
I tried to be honest in my comments that you all here should be able to handle, but now I am dishonest and affected? Sloppy? Think not. Even by your very insightful and demeaning comments to the contrary. JP, I did not ask what you have accomplished nor do I care, other than by your own unstated proclamation of (something?) I have to assume. There is elitism in this world, but I hope no here is associated and I did not ever say they were. But by basically stating you are better than the next poster in a thinly veiled way, then can accept that label with my compliments. Go cure cancer. Just the mere fact that you respond means my “sloppiness” at least got a flutter from you. And yes, I know what acumen is. It comes in many forms and people have many talents.
Julian, no ill will. Thanks for the comments and I guess I will take my sloppiness elsewhere. I find it refreshing to vent, but also waaaay frustrating as well. I sure you all do too. Too many theories out there that are just that. However when a hard line is drawn that states that there is nothing that could be wrong with any process or problem, I guess we refer back to lead paint and asbestos historically. I know you will eat that comment up, but a bit true. There is some talking down here on this tread, and I am sure that is true of most. Maybe all in too deep to see it. I hope some good comes from this however and people learn by disagreeing (no matter how “sloppy or seemingly “un-intelligent”)
JGC I actually thought you were thoughtful and remotely smart but I seem to have stumped you. Just because a blog calls a person a loon is irrelevant.
For the 3rd time. What are the ROOT CAUSES of chronic diseases in children?
What is your working theory right now? I don’t need CONCRETE evidence I need a solid well thought out theory from all of you.
Genes? for the love of God?! only preprogrammed robotic MD’s think that.
I am waiting
Looking forward to further studies http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=13563&page=161 Study Designs for the Safety Evaluation of Different Childhood Immunization Schedules
ken: “and there is absolutely no evidence that it’s not too many, too soon; no one on this blog has provided the evidence that the current schedule is safe.”
Knock yourself out: Increasing exposure to antibody-stimulating proteins and polysaccharides in vaccines is not associated with risk of autism.
That has been posted a few times as part of Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence (though the web address changed, the proper one is in the link I provided).
You really should familiarize yourself with basic statistics. You would understand the numbers in the posted papers better if you understood things like normal distribution, mean and standard deviation.
ken, take a look, please. https://www.coursera.org/course/stats1
Study Designs for the Safety Evaluation of Different Childhood Immunization Schedules
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=13563&page=161
And for the third time theo, different chronic diseaseswill have different etiologies–the ‘root cause’ of MS will not be the same root cause as ADHD which will not be the same route cause as Duchenne’s MS, etc.. If you’re really interested in becoming familar with the current ‘working theory’ for a particular disease you’ll have to read the current literature regarding that disease, which is easily discoverable by searching Pubmed and similar databases.
As for “Genes? for the love of God?! only preprogrammed robotic MD’s think that”, in a previous post I provided seveal links to articles which discuss evidence supporting a causal association between genetics and ADHD. Pick one or two and explain to us all how the evidence the authors provide fails to support that conclusion.
ken, do you know what you’ve linked to? Can you please describe?
THEO @ 803:
As has been pointed out, Dr. Hyman is not a reliable source.
ken @ 814:
In science, you can’t prove a negative. Put simply, we don’t have to prove the current schedule is safe, you have to prove it isn’t. Time for you to put up or shut up, ken.
#822 Had stat 50 years ago. Had to take it for a course in Experimental Psych. No thanks.
Suggest you read http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=13563&page=161
Study Designs for the Safety Evaluation of Different Childhood Immunization Schedules
#825 Huh? I don’t spoon feed.
Oh, as as for “Just because a blog calls a person a loon is irrelevant?”
The fact that he’s included on a list of individuals characterized as loons may be irrelevant, but the fact that he is a loon is not.
Note also that even if he were not a loon, you would still be offering nothing other than an argument from authority rather than evidence in your attempt to declare embracing a genetic origin for soem chronic diseases invalid
ken, that’s the third time you’ve posted that link. Can you please describe what it is you’ve linked to and what it’s telling you? I’m merely asking you to stand behind your source. That is not the same as spoon feeding.
Sorry basic math is so yucky to you ken, that Stats I on coursera is free and would likely do you some good.
@THEO
Let me explain this to you with a metaphor. Not every car problem is mechanical. If you bury my car in snow, I can sit in it and do things all day and it won’t go. But that doesn’t mean that no car problems are mechanical. If the gas pedal is broken, it doesn’t matter where you put the car; the only direction you can get it to go is down.
In the same way, it doesn’t matter where you put a child, or what you feed or do to her; if her genes don’t contain the instructions to make a functional copy of a certain protein, she’s not going to make a functional version of that protein, and any copies she does produce of that protein won’t do what they need to do.
So yes, having genes that don’t work can cause chronic disease. It’s also possible to have marginally working individual genes that fail when you combine them together. Just because not all diseases are caused by genetic factors doesn’t mean that none are.
* There were surprises that came out of the Human Genome Project. The facts that gene expression gets regulated, and that genes code for proteins that do stuff in the real world were not among those surprises.
Noah @818:
And why did I call you that? Because:
You were affecting intelligence while using a malapropism. That makes you a poseur.
You have twice distorted what I said. You are either not paying proper attention or being willfully mendacious. Neither reflects well on you.
Where has anyone suggested in this post or the comments that “there is nothing wrong with this process”?
Maybe I’m being a little unkind. I’m guessing English isn’t your first language. If that is the case, I withdraw my poseur remark and apologise for it.
Should keep in mind herr doktor bimler’s words, upthread:
“She has explained earlier that she does not have time to read the links she passes on, so you cannot expect her to know whether they are relevant, or valid, or interesting. Presumably your time is less important, and the hope is that you can do the homework and give her a summary of the links’ contents.”
#830 I’m 72 and a succesful artist. All this posting is theoretical anyway. It’s basically irrelevant to me since my children and grandchildren have been vaccinated.
Ciao!
@THEO
ken, they’re not bringing up the concept of a “normal distribution” to make fun of you or show off. They’re just trying to explain why it’s not all that surprising that 1 in 6 kids are in the bottom 16%.
and by THEO, I mean ken in the last comment.
# 833 Just when I was beginning to like you… you did it again. This is “not” grammar class and excuse me and I will have to look malapropism. Yes, doublespeak is my first language and English the second.
You said in a earlier post “you have a lot to learn”
Ok, treat me as a convert (on the subject) not Webster’s Dictionary. Since all is laser focused here, please guide me to links that prove without a doubt that the protesters/posters here have nothing really to worry about and go on fretting about things like the economy. Would that not be great?
I am being serious here, even though I have poseur status.
Do you have links to exactly what is in a vaccine shot given to a newborn? Full ingredients as it stands today? Any other scientific opinions that date back from smallpox forward that has historical information confirming there is no issues? Any panel discussion like a Presidential debate that affords discussion and say either for against from accredited professionals?? I am sure these threads are really not ‘all” about someone trying to sell a nutritional book or voodoo doll that side steps vaccines etc. I know they are there and I would bet most are concerned with the preservatives and compound make up of these vaccines. Guy selling a book dangerous? Possibly. Big drug company losing/gaining “big” revenue? Quite possibly.
You said I had a lot to learn. Please link the best possible info on what you have regarding history and current vaccine schedule, possible effects vs. known benefits.
One caveat however, if you are to group all “truthers” together, (even though I prefer a different description) I can say I am open to any except on the subject of Fluoride.You could paste all the links you want stating that this substance should be in our water and it would make zero difference. Not even talking about any benefit or harm, just the very simple fact that you can get it so many other places. A dentist will look you in eye and say it is appropriate because they are trained to say it. Not in a evil way, just what they believe. They will not remove ( only reduce after years of these same type of debates) conceding that we can now get it from other sources. Really… Slow and unreactive. Stand to lose face, possible pushback from a legal standpoint, tons of a money and a place to dilute their waste. I am untrusting of total transparency because of things like this. When it comes to kids, we should all be watching.
Makes no matter if you link or not, just curious.
It is clear that the root cause of all but one chronic disease in children is…
lack of beer.
The one disease not cause by lack of beer? Alcoholism.
#834 Thank you for your service with the MNCH (yes I looked it up too. Your ego victory)
I do not know why the IOM added this to their report. I read it
and have nothing to say about it. I said if no one is interested don’t bother to read or evaluate.
I read all the links I post. Lurkers might be interested.
Why did they add this appendix ?
Committee on the Assessment of Studies of Health Outcomes Related to the Recommended Childhood Immunization Schedule
Board on Population Health and Public Health Practice
INSTITUTE OF MEDICINE OF THE NATIONAL ACADEMIES
THE NATIONAL ACADEMIES PRESS
Washington, D.C.
http://www.nap.edu
Appendix D
Study Designs for the Safety Evaluation of Different Childhood Immunization Schedules
Martin Kulldorff1
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=13563&page=161
#841 It states –
“To date, there have been few comparative studies evaluating the safety of different vaccine schedules. A few of the existing studies have shown that there are cases in which the risk of adverse events can depend on the vaccination schedule used. Hence, it is both a feasible and an important area of study…….. “
Genes? for the love of God?! only preprogrammed robotic MD’s think that.
That makes perfect sense. Yes, the vast majority of doctors accept a role for genetic predisposition in autism, but only because they are genetically predisposed to do so.
ken: “#830 I’m 72 and a succesful artist. All this posting is theoretical anyway.”
So was lilady. The difference is that she was willing to learn.
Also, a link to several studies was presented to you, with several different designs.
Ken, as a believer in the whole left brain/right brain claptrap as applied to personalities, talents, and abilities, seems to think that, being an artist, she should naturally find statistics “yucky.” This is a common enough attitude, but what makes ken really stand out from the crowd is that she nevertheless feels compelled to debate, in a uniquely incompetent manner, on a subject which requires at least a basic understanding of statistics to comprehend.
She complains that others lack empathy, yet she seems not to understand why intelligent people might be offended at the suggestion that they are all a bunch of heartless, robotic egg-heads who lack any sort of “emotional intelligence.” “Emotional intelligence,” of course, is all right brain stuff, so those left-brain people who are into logic, rationality, and evidence must clearly have sacrificed any and all fellow-feeling for their fellow man, like Odin his eye.
She also seems pretty clueless about why people might feel generally hostile towards her, even though she marched in accusing Orac of conflicts of interest, calling us all shills, implying that we’re part of some weird cult of personality, accusing certain people of not loving their children enough, etc., etc., etc. Oh, and generally just being a moron.
^ That use of “fellow-feeling” and “fellow man” in the same clause was a frank abuse of the English language. I am sorry.
“#834 Thank you for your service with the MNCH (yes I looked it up too. Your ego victory” – ken, what does this mean? “service with the MNCH” and why is it a victory to my ego that you looked it up, even though I’m unsure if you understand what I was saying?
I have no artistic talent, ken. Zero, can’t paint or draw or sculpt or anything. I’m not a scientist, either. Feel better? I just know enough to listen people who are and I’ve lived and worked in the realm of public health and seen the negative consequences of low/no herd pretty much my whole life.
JP: “She complains that others lack empathy, yet she seems not to understand why intelligent people might be offended at the suggestion that they are all a bunch of heartless, robotic egg-heads who lack any sort of “emotional intelligence.””
I am not sure who we lack empathy for. If one reads these articles and comments with actual comprehension one should understand that we are very empathic towards children, those with autism, cancer patients and others.
I don’t understand how not wanting children to get sick, how not wanting children to be subjected to questionable treatments like chelation, bleach enemas, etc, and not wanting those with cancer throw away a chance to live longer by spending money on quackery is a sign that we “lack empathy.”
Are we being empathetic to the wrong groups? Are we supposed to have empathy for those who equate vaccination with rape or that believe children are property? Sorry, I just cannot dredge up any empathy for Mike Adams and Rand Paul.
Empathy, what it’s not:
Further to #849 —
Seriously, ken. When you can find one single instance of any of the people arguing with saying, “Well, I got mine, so the health and welfare of others is basically irrelevant to me, what do I care?” you can start casting stones about empathy.
That’s a profoundly unempathetic comment. It’s the opposite of empathy, pretty much.
Why did they add this appendix ?
Committee on the Assessment of Studies of Health Outcomes Related to the Recommended Childhood Immunization Schedule
Board on Population Health and Public Health Practice
INSTITUTE OF MEDICINE OF THE NATIONAL ACADEMIES
THE NATIONAL ACADEMIES PRESS
Washington, D.C.
http://www.nap.edu
Appendix D
Study Designs for the Safety Evaluation of Different Childhood Immunization Schedules
Martin Kulldorff1
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=13563&page=161
JP quite accurately describes the left/ right brain nonsense.
( Excuse me if I sound more dis-organised than usual but I’ve had a few drinks)
That’s not to say that people don’t vary in their abilities relative to brain areas ( see NVLD/ global decisions/ executive functioning/ sarcasm ) but things just don’t line up as neatly as proponents of the aforementioned crappy theory believe. And social cognitive and cognitive differences may exist but that doesn’t equate to ’emotional intelligence’ vs robotic decision making. And it IS rare that brains’ hemispheres remain as incommunicato as these simpletons imagine ( many problems would then occur as we know from studies of people who have little connections between hemispheres – e.g HM)
There’s an additional crenellation within this tissue of lies that aligns abilities along a simplified male/ female dimension as well. Obviously this hilarity will include intuition, perceptiveness and empathy as female traits which necessarily determines their enviable mothering skills. So they’d be great at that, awful at mathematics and generally chatty I suppose.
Save us from pseudoscience that enables time worn sexist attitudes.
Appendix D
Study Designs for the Safety Evaluation of Different Childhood Immunization Schedules
Martin Kulldorff1 SUMMARY
To date, there have been few comparative studies evaluating the safety of different vaccine schedules. A few of the existing studies have shown that there are cases in which the risk of adverse events can depend on the vaccination schedule used. Hence, it is both a feasible and an important area of study. As a relatively new field of investigation, the big question is what types of study designs will be most fruitful for evaluating different childhood vaccine schedules.
I questioned the schedule-“too many too soon” with profound empathy for vaccine injured children. I also have profound empathy for children who suffered from VPD.
No one bother to answer the question why was this appendix was added.
You are all too chatty by the way.
JP Delphine Chris Denice et al
Why was this appendix added?
ken, have you noticed a bit of disinterest in your spamming that one thing? You are reminding me of my kids when they were little and kept repeating a request. I told them to just repeat the answer they were given before, and that it will not change.
Also, have you read the study I posted? It answered your question.
ken nicely illustrates her basis for evaluation –
women who post frequently are “chatty” but men who do similarly are called (fill in the blanks)
AND we do have men who post frequently or write long posts
I am not unfamiliar with the condition.
Jesus Fυcking Christ.
What’s the title of the volume? What happened to “I read all the links I post”?* Do you mean to say that you read just the one fυcking page? Did it ever enter your head that maybe, just maybe, the answer might be somewhere in the fυcking text?
* I’m still waiting.
I’m too tired to go hunting for Kleps’s mention.
I’m just going to leave this here without further comment.
Noah, that information appears on the package insert–a legally required document that accompanies each vial of vaccine packaged. You can find copies of the package insert by googling “package insert” plus “Name of vaccine”.
For example “Gardisil” plus “Package insert” will offer several links inluding http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM111263.pdf
–
Dang–blockquote fail. Hopefully the links still work
Lets clear this up once and or all.. Seriously I have a business degree in Finance and I have to do all the heavy lifting around here. You are medical professionals. This is why I don’t trust your pharmaceutical model.
Sorry Sir your son has ADHD he has a bad gene there is nothing we can do. However we think we can manage this condition with Amphetamines like Ritalin and Adderai. What they dont tell you… He will be stimulated and dependent on them for life and it will change his brain chemistry.
Now lets look at the new paradigm taking shape.
In the blame game of genetic disorders, genes are credited with the disrupting lives of millions of people around the world. The disruption of any system in the body is blamed as a bad gene effect. Genetics ruling lives of living systems is a Darwinian hangover. The idea that genes control biology is a hypothesis that has never been proved! This is because of the confusion between causation and correlation. There are many diseases that are correlated to gene dysfunction; but the actual aspect of the defective gene being causative of the disease has never been proven,[1] [see also 2 p. 108]. The metaphor of control by the gene has been assumed without argument; the gene reacts to the signals from the environment for both proper activity and abnormal response. It seems that the environment has a crucial role to play in the health of a cell and ultimately, the health of an individual.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3193653/
The decoding of the human genome at the dawn of the millennium carried the hope and promise of the beginning of the end of human suffering. However, after more than a decade of intense exploration of the human genome the burden of human disease and suffering has only increased across the globe. Heart disease, cancer, and diabetes as well as allergic and autoimmune disorders have all continued to skyrocket. Hope has given way to disappointment as scientists have recognized that, other than in single gene disorders likes Down’s syndrome, your genes don’t determine your fate.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mark-hyman/human-genome_b_803069.html
So please stop with your GENE DOGMA!
The ROOT CAUSE of ALL disease in the body is distilled down to 2 major factors. Drum roll please……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
Toxicity and Deficiency. Perfectly explained by epi-genetics
As the team explained, when everything is going well, these markers keep genes functioning as they should. However, they’re vulnerable to environmental assault — factors such as exposure to toxins, bad diets or aging — and can mutate.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_151026.html#.VOaOobuZh28.facebook
The Exposome: Environmental Influences on Health and Disease
In October 2010 Science magazine(ii) published an important paper that reviewed the notion of the “exposome”—the idea that the environment in which your genes live is more important than your genes themselves. What this suggests is that applying genomics to treat disease is misguided because 70-90 percent of your disease risk is related to your environment exposures and the resultant alterations in molecules that wash over your genes.
The question then is how do we measure and change our “exposome”—or the totality of the impact of the environment on your genes. We must address not just one factor but the whole collection of interacting factors that determine health and disease—toxins, food, microbes, internal chemicals including all the biologically active molecules that control inflammation, oxidative stress, gut flora, and other natural processes.
Emerging biomarkers and analytic techniques will soon allow us to map our exposome from a drop of blood, and measure change over time. Using novel treatments that help identify and remove known external toxins (like pesticides and mercury) and strategies that change the internal environment including diet, nutrients, probiotics, and detoxification would help you change your “exposome” and lower your overall disease risk.
Once this new paradigm of understanding how a lifetime of interacting exposures interacts with your genes to determine your chronic disease risk, once the gene-environment interactions are mapped more carefully, then the promise of the genomic revolution can be fully realized.
http://drhyman.com/blog/2010/12/31/the-failure-of-decoding-the-human-genome-and-the-future-of-medicine/
Sorry JGC and the rest but Vaccines are considered environmental toxins in my book and the book of a growing list of defecting medical professionals and scientists. They are observing links of ingredients in vaccines to chronic disease. This is the new working theory being explored….Is it 100% conclusive or proven? NO!
However the caution flags are being raised and the sharks are in a frenzy smelling blood. Its just a matter of time and it makes logical sense to thinking parents who keep getting told the dogma you have bad genetics. We don’t believe you anymore
The revolution is ON!
Bwahahahahahaha! You’re killin’ me!
“Heavy lifting” to you is cut’n’paste from not-so-state-of-the-art journals such as the Huff Po and the International Journal of Yoga. I am not impressed.
And you have a Business Degree. In Finance! You know, I have a Doctorate. In Medicine! But I don’t go to business blogs and make a ludicrous fool of myself telling everybody there how wrong they are and how I know it all about the New Paradigm of Global Economics. I’m smart enough to know better. You are not.
There’s a popular opinion that doctors make the worst investors (which, in my opinion, is mostly true). In your case, the inverse is true.
Wow, THEO. Just…wow.
And…
You epitomise the arrogance of ignorance. You have NO medical training whatsoever, and yet you think your degree in Finance qualifies you to pontificate on medicine and health. You are Dunning-Kruger personified.
I’m pretty sure
THEOIliya Torbica thinks he knows the REAL TRUTH about a lot of things, like what happened at Srebrenica.@ #868: Exactly. What’s with cranks these days & epigenetics?
I have a business degree myself — since when is killing off or crippling potential customers a viable business model?
“I have a business degree myself — since when is killing off or crippling potential customers a viable business model?” SHiyte
Well that’s what we keep telling them, actually it is good for business, especially pension plans. You pay in all your life and then when you want to retire and go travelling the good old medic finishes you off.
“You epitomise the arrogance of ignorance. You have NO medical training whatsoever, and yet you think your degree in Finance qualifies you to pontificate on medicine and health. You are Dunning-Kruger personified.” JOOlytoyspram
Medical training isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. Most of it is based on medical peer review – might as well be the bible. YOu are Duvet hoover himself
“You epitomise the arrogance of ignorance. You have NO medical training whatsoever, and yet you think your degree in Finance qualifies you to pontificate on medicine and health. You are Dunning-Kruger personified.” JOOlytoyspram
Medical training isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. Most of it is based on medical peer review – might as well be the bible. YOu are Duvet hoover himself.
“Bwahahahahahaha! You’re killin’ me!
“Heavy lifting” to you is cut’n’paste from not-so-state-of-the-art journals such as the Pubmed and the International Journal of medical peer review. I am not impressed. “Tboner
Wahayyyyeeeeeeee. We are back on Pubmed central – go on quote me some citation needed or some crank off about vaccines saving lives. Someone get NOBred a box of tissues, I can hear him getting all worked up
# 862 – Thank you for a direct link without the further comment. I appreciate it.
# 863- I will check out the second link- the CDC, seen it. Seems to be very little to share here though on a such a huge subject that has so many passionately discussing this.
Yes, I am not sure what “qualified” means. I guess a parent that has a child with autism is not qualified. Anyone concerned other than your little club of experts is not welcome. If you don’t have a degree in psycho babble… look elsewhere. Lots of grammar check and sentence structure which has “nothing” to do with the grass roots of the issue at all. Assume by your lofty reply that it is a waste of time to be subjected to such trivial and elementary requests. Make your head hurt? There is a forest through the trees outlook that can occur and is happening here. What if a parent was actually coming here to seek answers or even vent and you tend to rip them up as uneducated either on the actual subject matter or just overall “dumb” Like landing in a snake pit. It is too bad that others give you so much fuel for ridicule with all the whack theories ( Bleach? etc.)…. and I understand why you push back.
The bottom line….. as I said originally, that you may think that science is not perfect but it is the best we got and there could be nothing really wrong with the process or product. Period.
That is the bottom line, just stay with your convictions and stop scolding and correcting. You are “not” any better than any other parent who has a child with Autism or any spectrum disorder. The ones that have to work everyday with behavioral therapy to try to get back to some kind of normalcy. if you are not one of those …. then keep your comments on intelligence to yourself and try to help those that might come here.
The Chipldren’s Hospital of Philadelphia Vaccine Eduscation Center….. oh and by the way…. this header is totally miss spelled. I am sure you should have cleaned it up before posting. Does this de-value your entire post? I guess so.
Noah: “I guess a parent that has a child with autism is not qualified.”
Why? No one has told me, Matt Carey, Calli Arcale and others to not comment because we have children with autism.
This may be because we don’t employ “arguments by blatant assertion”, actually provide documentation to support our arguments and avoid posting a wall of text.
“What if a parent was actually coming here to seek answers or even vent and you tend to rip them up as uneducated either on the actual subject matter or just overall “dumb” Like landing in a snake pit.”
Wait, you asked a question? Forgive me to missing that. Could you try again and not bury it in a wall of text, please?
Went through looking for Noah’s question, but could not find any real ones. But I did find this: “I could also care less if someone take a B-17 or Selenium pill in an attempt to help their child.”
I sincerely doubt an aircraft museum would allow any child to chew on a WWII bomber, nor take one out on a thrill ride. There are not that many left, and they don’t like them getting damaged.
johnny:
You’re perseverating.
Repeating something dumb over and over again doesn’t make it right. It just makes it more dumb.
I’ve been ignoring Noah’s word salad, but this one pretty clearly refers to casually dosing kids with Laetrile, which he seems to have made up all by his lonesome as a candidate for autism biomeddlers for no other sake than attempting to express indifference.
I know, Narad, I was just thought it was highly amusing.
And please, I hope the “bleach up the bum” crowd don’t get it into their heads that consuming cyanide is an autism cure. It is just as ridiculous as chewing on aircraft museum displays.
D’oh.
THEO™ is an impressive example, given that he seems to be under the impression – given the portion of the entry in… the International Journal of Yoga that he decided to cut and paste* – that epigenetics has nothing to do genes.
* Which also goes on to make hay over “pregenetics,” the effect of past lives.
^ Well, that was poorly composed, but you get the idea.
I’m pretty sure the Serbian Orthodox Church would find such notions heretical.
#838 Noah
Ingredients of Vaccines – Fact Sheet
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm
#865 Theo Thanks for the link. Dr. Hyman is my favorite.
“#830 I’m 72 and a succesful artist. All this posting is theoretical anyway. It’s basically irrelevant to me since my children and grandchildren have been vaccinated.
Ciao!” Kendoo
Hey Ken, are you a war artist or a peece artist?
“Repeating something dumb over and over again doesn’t make it right. It just makes it more dumb.” Tboner
medical peer review, vaccines save lives, medical peer review, vaccines save lives…………………..
a tissue a tissue you all fall down
Well, Ken? You expended four comments bleating about needing to be spoon-fed the reason for the presence of Appendix D before dousing yourself with irony and setting yourself ablaze with yet another attempt at condescension. Have you figured it out yet?
#838 Noah
Adventitious Agents and Vaccines
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2631857/pdf/11485673.pdf
Are you addressing the voices, or what? Nobody here is throwing gene dogma at you, as far as I can see.
Of-effing-course, obviously, your genes do not determine your fate. Fate is not a biological concept.
And also of-effing-course, obviously, that doesn’t mean your genes do nothing at all, or that what they do is infinitely adjustable via nutrition or any other factor.
That entire quote is a straw-man argument. It’s simply not true that the decoding of the human genome at the dawn of the millennium carried the hope and promise of the beginning of the end of human suffering.
As a general rule, the only people who seriously think in those terms — ie, who think that genetics, or nutrition, or vitalism, or some other singular, all-purpose force is going to restore to us the natural superpowers that we ostensibly enjoyed at some mythical point in the past — are fascists.
It’s one of the defining features of fascist ideology. In fact.
Anyway. Nobody was spewing genetic dogma at you. Calm down.
Theo is throwing around gene dogma, repeatedly copy-pasting Hyman’s genetic-essentialist grift:
So the gene-dogmatist that Theo is complaining about is, in fact, Theo.
Whoever coined the term ‘nutrigenomics’ never thought how scam-friendly it is, and how easily appropriated by shameless grifters like Hyman.
many problems would then occur as we know from studies of people who have little connections between hemispheres – e.g HM
I cannot allow Denice Walter to confound the case of HM (with his bilateral hippocampectomy) with studies of corpus callosotomy.
#893 UC at Davis has a dept of #nutrigenomics”
I remember my first trip to London in the 70’s- worst food ever.
I’m not surprised about the antipathy to food. It must be “epigenetic”.
nutrigenomics.ucdavis.edu
“Went through looking for Noah’s question, but could not find any real ones. But I did find this: “I could also care less if someone take a B-17 or Selenium pill in an attempt to help their child.”
I sincerely doubt an aircraft museum would allow any child to chew on a WWII bomber, nor take one out on a thrill ride. There are not that many left, and they don’t like them getting damaged.”
I came for the science. I stay for the ripostes.
#895 The mission of the Center is to reduce and ultimately eliminate health disparities resulting from adverse environment x genome interactions, particularly those involving nutritional, economic, and cultural factors. Our goal is to devise evidence-based nutritional interventions to prevent, mitigate and delay the onset of diseases such as obesity, Type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease, malnutrition and certain cancers. To achieve this goal, the Center is taking an interdisciplinary approach to develop culturally compatible methods and novel technologies to elucidate the complex interactions between environmental triggers, genes, and disease.The Center is a multi-organizational research collaboration between the
Department of Molecular and Cellular Biology at the University of California, Davis, College of Biological Sciences, University of California, Davis, USDA Western Human Nutrition Research Center at UC Davis, and the California Institute for Food and Agricultural Research at UC Davis
The Center is supported by a grant (P60MD0222) from the National Institute for Minority Health and Health Disparities (NIMHD) at the National Institutes of Health (NIH). The Center director is Dr. Raymond L. Rodriguez, professor of molecular biology at the University of California, Davis. Dr. Somen Nandi serves as managing director of the Center’s new Global HealthShare Initiative.
Yes most of my comments are just that. Little pieces of words strung together. May offend some, some may pgive pause. I can read pretty quickly so assume others can too. So if too long and rambling… just skip around (or over).
As it is the weekend … here is something that is more direct.
More of a poll really might there be any interest in considering.
Subject: (and true story)
4 person/doctor Pediatric office. Each Doctor degreed, certified, qualified and each have a subset of loyal patients.
Big Pharma GSK offers a “Rebate” – street name (Kickback) to said doctor for using their services. These rebates are consistent and can range from 3 to 4 figures per payout.
(normally 600-1,200)
3 or 4 Doctors accept this rebate . One does not.
Do you…..
1. Feel there is anything wrong with this program, or just the cost of doing business like that of a sponsor for Nascar ?
2. If you had a choice knowing up front, that one of the four chose “not” to participate in a rebate program from a specific drug company, would that sway your opinion on whether to pick this specific doctor ?
3. Do you find this doctor who “does not take the money” to he higher moral character?
4. Anyone think that these rebates do not occur and this story is a fabrication?
This is over and above all the Rep CSR’s who bring in full blown lunches for entire staff and doctors on a weekly basis… consistently. In fairness, lunches would include all Pharma.
#893 HDB How old are you and in what century were you born ?
Dr. Mark Hyman is hardly a “shameless grifter”.
Between the unmatched quotation mark and the bizarrely inappropriate deployment of the octothorpe, one might wonder where this lead-in to nothing was scraped up from.
WHO report: 74% of men and 64% of women in UK to be overweight by 2030
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/may/05/obesity-crisis-projections-uk-2030-men-women
5. Crack another beer?
#900 full of sound and fury, signifying nothing (your comment)
Dr. Mark Hyman is hardly a “shameless grifter”.
Maybe he does have a sense of shame but conceals it well.
The core of his scam appears to be “Abandon the old paradigm of rigid genetic determinism, which only exists in my imagination! Adopt, instead, my new paradigm of rigid food-gene determinism!”
He knows his targets… worried-well narcissists who want their orthorexia personally-customised.
At the risk of being further off-topic with ken’s latest link:
Of course, there are a number of situations in which “overweight” people have better health outcomes than “normal” weight people, including cancer and diabetes. (Quotes on “overweight” because it’s a judgment that assumes that BMI is a meaningful number on the individual level and further assumes that being in a specific numerical range is unhealthy, when that’s not always true. Quotes on “normal” because it seems to be neither average nor inherently desirable.)
Still, it’s good to have an identified source that ken will take as true, namely the Grauniad. Can we trust the entire paper, or just the “society” section?
ken nice one on the Macbeth there but you ruined it with the parenthesis’d (your comment). Stating the obvious, I’m afraid, remember brevity is the soul of wit.
Typos are atrocious on # 898 for which I take full responsibility. Hope it does not detract too much.
The Center [for Nutritional Genomics] is a multi-organizational research collaboration between […] , and the California Institute for Food and Agricultural Research at UC Davis
I am relieved to see that the involvement of a agribusiness-funded marketing agency is not (in this case) a cause for concern.
Noah, are you trying to suggest that none of us here are aware that health care fraud exists? What points are you trying to make, that people sometimes behave unethically, to the possible detriment of others?
My parents received a large much-needed box of pens in the back of beyond in the late 70s. Dunno why they were short of pens, pen strike, pen prohibition, but this box of pens helped them out and they were grateful to have been on the receiving end of Big Pharma largesse.
AND SO THEY WERE CORRUPTED. THEY IMMEDIATELY INJECTED SCORES OF CHILDREN WITH (INSERT NAME OF DRUG HERE) BECAUSE FREE.
I remember my first trip to London in the 70’s- worst food ever.
I’m not surprised about the antipathy to food. It must be “epigenetic”.
It’s these incomprehensible personal asides that make comment threads so interesting.
Dr. Mark Hyman is hardly a “shameless grifter”.
Perhaps you would prefer “not only a connoisseur of woo but a constant source of amazingly nonsensensical statements about health“?
How about “altmed shill […] particularly notable for his ability to mangle, misunderstand, and misrepresent research in service of his particular brand of woo”?
Shall we just settle for “mendacious charlatan”?
She thinks that you are from the UK, and that she can thus insult you by speaking poorly of 1970s London cuisine. Also, she seems to think that the 1970s London fare that you were ostensibly raised on (oh wait, wrong century, or something) has given you a general antipathy toward food, because that’s the only possible reason you might disagree with Hyman. And all of this is apparently “epigenetic,” which is supposed to be witty.
I am not quite sure how I feel about my ability to grok ken.
#910 Poor dear hdb- I really have nothing against bangers and mash.
Enjoy!
Dahlings I am an eccentric.
A sadly stupid and uninteresting one, if so, I’m afraid.
#914 You wish…….
No, you’re just apparently too dense to figure it out, as with your own links.
I seem to have the distiction of pi**ing off both johnny and JP.
That is interesting.
You don’t p!ss me off, ken; you’d have to register on my emotional radar in some way to be able to do that, and you don’t. I just find you hilariously imbecilic. The sheer wonderment at the depth’s of another person’s stupidity and lack of insight is starting to lose its novelty, though.
#918 Can you be more specific?
#918 Can you dazzle me with some of your profound insights on life,love,joy, fulfillment?
Here’s your chance to shine and be brilliant.
@the minions:
I’ve heard that 401 scammers intentionally make their come-ons so preposterous that only the most gullible marks respond, so that they don’t waste their time with people who won’t end up taking the bait. I think that Mark Hyman was thinking something along those lines when he wrote
I mean seriously? I knew that Down Syndrome is caused by a chromosomal abnormality, not something at the single gene level when I was in middle school. It’s just about the first thing they teach you about genetics. There is no way someone work a medical licence wouldn’t know that.
The only reasonable explanation is that he threw that in to weed out anyone who knows anything about biology and isn’t willing to take everything he says as the absolute truth.
… that you would quit running away from things that you yourself elected to make a stink about in the first place, sure.
Noah @#898 —
What are the terms of the rebate deal? How does it work?
Reposted from the Autism Research Institute’s latest e-newsletter.MMS is too dangerous even for the ARI,one of the biggest promoters of biomed for autism.
Clinicians Warn: Chlorine Dioxide Treatment known as “Miracle Mineral Solution” is Unproven, Potentially “Seriously Damaging”
Concerned about reports of negative side effects from a treatment called MMS, ARI reached out to a handful of clinicians and asked them to share their thoughts. Their response:
We recognize the urgency parents may feel when confronted with a diagnosis of autism, which may lead them to undertake desperate treatments such as Miracle Mineral Solution (MMS, a.k.a. CD for chlorine dioxide, or ASEA). Any medical treatment that uses “Miracle” on its label raises serious questions of old-fashioned fraud. In particular, suspicions arise with MMS, a product whose primary ingredient has side effects known to be seriously damaging. We recognize that there are off-label treatments with variable amounts of data that parents and practitioners will attempt. As pioneers in the use of a biomedical approach to autism, however, we maintain that it is critical that a treatment be considered reasonably safe before we give it to children. We do not consider MMS to meet these standards, and it violates the principal precept of medical bioethics: “first, do no harm.”
While many families spend years trying to detoxify their children, MMS introduces a known toxin into their bodies. MMS has properties similar to Clorox® bleach, which can burn the upper digestive tract. The mucous threads that children expel during MMS treatment, which have been touted as worms (though laboratory analysis does not support this claim), are the body’s method of protecting itself from induced oxidative stress in the lower digestive tract equivalent to the mid-day sun in its ability to produce severe sunburn.
We simply cannot know what, if any, damage may occur in the long term. We have seen severe mineral deficiencies, malabsorption, loss of beneficial flora, and anemia in our patients who have undergone this treatment. The disruption of children’s gut epithelium and flora could have unforeseen consequences to their immune systems. At some point later in life, they may be also at higher risk for esophageal or stomach cancers, among other issues.
Some parents of sick children report dramatic improvements in stool as well as other symptoms. Does this mean MMS is an effective treatment? Not necessarily. Nature’s strong impulse toward healing is stimulated by stress. Fasting, physical exertion to the point of exhaustion, sleep deprivation, torture, and severe physical and emotional trauma muster the resources of the mitochondria, muscles, mind, and soul to rise to the occasion. While any resulting temporary improvements may seem “miraculous,” there are safer and lower-risk ways to induce a healing response.
Given these issues, we advise against using MMS at this time. We hope parents will remain critical of unsubstantiated claims that children have recovered or greatly improved in the absence of objective proof. We also strongly encourage any parents who choose to administer MMS to their children to report it to their physician so that side effects can be monitored.
Sidney Baker, MD; Nancy O’Hara, MD; Suruchi Chandra, MA; Ali Carine, DO; Dana Laake, RDH, MS, LDN; John Green, MD; Kelly M. Barnhill, MBA, CN, CCN; Maya Shetreat-Klein, MD; Vicki Kobliner MS RDN; and Elizabeth Mumper, MD
Something something pearls before swine, oder epes azoy. Actually, what I meant by “lack of insight” is that you’re too dumb to realize how dumb you are.
In any case, I’m not in the right mood to wax poetic or philosophical at the moment, and I’d suggest that, rather than trying to make vague demands that somebody else show her brilliance in an arena in which you so ironically think you outclass her, you instead <a href="attend to the matter at hand.
Ahem. The matter at hand.
Seriously I have a business degree in Finance
THEO should meet Iliya (“a bonafide leader in business and no pushover”), they seem to have a lot in common, like sons who will never be vaccinated.
That’s not how it works.
Then it’s a good thing that they’re for every two years.
I think THEO and iliya are the same person. They certainly made the exact same arguments, using the exact same wording and reasoning.
And areas of academic endeavor.
Narad: “… that you would quit running away from things that you yourself elected to make a stink about in the first place, sure.”
I ignore pleas to design certain studies by those who clutch their pearls over any “one in six” statistic, since it is equivalent to the Lake Wobegon notion that all their children are above average. I accept the world is not perfect, and that is why the normal distribution exists.
I also know by personal experience that Childfind intake requires that they test not one, but two standard deviations below the mean in certain areas. Also some of those criteria have nothing to do with intelligence. My son qualified for services due to deficits in several areas like expressive speech, etc, but does have normal intelligence.
One more time, Theo: what evidence indicates that at exposure levels achievable by routine childhood vaccination any of the ingredients in vaccine formulations are toxic or otherwise harmful? Be specific.
You must have some-right? If not, your argument ultimately is reducible to nothing other than “Oooooh–ingredients! Scary stuff!”
Dang Sorry, Orac, I borked the email address in my last post.
@Chris:
Re: the bell curve and normal distribution: it’s also the case, or at least I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s the case, that even raw intelligence does not necessarily correlate with not being stupid, and vice versa, so to speak. I myself can be phenomenally stupid at times; usually this manifest as doing stupid things, typically on impulse, or even out a perverse self-destructiveness. As I’ve said a few times in my life, being smart does not preclude being royally f*cked up.
I also don’t think that a person’s human worth is predicated upon his or her intelligence, or upon any other outcome of the genetic dice roll. I’ve known people who aren’t overly well endowed in the IQ department, say, but who posses more humility, decency, and good horse sense than a lot of – well, for example – tenured professors I’ve come across. It would be a mistake to think that being really smart precludes having those other qualities, too, though.
^ Sorry about the typos.
*blink*
This has been in the general category of “an apple a day keeps the doctor away” at least since I was in high school.
JP: “I also don’t think that a person’s human worth is predicated upon his or her intelligence, or upon any other outcome of the genetic dice roll. I’ve known people who aren’t overly well endowed in the IQ department, say, but who posses more humility, decency, and good horse sense than a lot of – well, for example – tenured professors I’ve come across. It would be a mistake to think that being really smart precludes having those other qualities, too, though.”
Exactly.
Although the thread has gone on several tangents since then, Ken is actually even more wrong about vaccines.
There was , in fact, a vaccine for scarlet fever, developed in 1924 by Drs. George and Gladys Dick. It was discontinued because of poor efficacy and there being many quickly evolving strains of the bacteria that causes scarlet fever. Antibiotics were quickly discovered to be more effective, and the vaccine was phased out when they were introduced.
herr doctor, what was I thinking?
I blithely mixed up HM with that other group of patients.
Serves me right to have drink and respond.
None of us are/ is perfect.
“I think THEO and iliya are the same person. They certainly made the exact same arguments, using the exact same wording and reasoning.” Greyflucky
Last time I trod in something – it made exactly the same points as Narad. otherwise known as Nobred
“Noah, are you trying to suggest that none of us here are aware that health care fraud exists? What points are you trying to make, that people sometimes behave unethically, to the possible detriment of others?” Douchine
No, no no, not at all – why would anyone do that. It is a despicable idea, blaming doctors for peecepoor diagnostic skills to keep the bucks flowing. Swine flu vaccine was because the world was falling apart, they got paid you know, still all those kids with narcolepsy, hundreds of thousands of deaths from Vioxx poisoning……. the list goes on and on.
Smokescreens of SBS aka (scientific BS) sprang up with paid, and yes voluntary minions, all pumping the smoke, denying the facts, in a booblebabble of septic weave,
Accept no limitations
What this site needs is a funky bassline
I think I was just trying to make it clear that I’m not one of those Bell Curve types proper, having perhaps made several comments that could be interpreted that way. Or, to put it another way, that I’m not PgP. I didn’t think it was particularly insightful.
Also, my brains were/are leaking out my ears due to trying to memorize the lines of a major character – mostly in Yiddish – in a 60 page script, which I need to finish doing approximately today, since tech week starts on Monday. It is not entirely my fault, the procrastination, as the director/writer of the play kept making changes to the script up until yesterday.
JP and Chris have said something important:
it’s not necessarily intelligence that predicts how a person relates to reality and other people.
I’ve come to believe that each person has a set of abilities including intelligence that can be developed or left fallow- although the abilities themselves may each start out at different levels- which are interwoven tightly together. Abilities can be what psychologists measure as well as what they don’t take into account.
You can measure person perception skills, reciprocity or recursive thought. Cognitive styles. ASQ. Then there are mental conditions and illnesses that intervene.
But we keep coming across people who have decent educations and who apparently function reasonably well in the real world ( I’m thinking most of the business folk at AoA and TMR) who then fall down one of the deepest rabbit holes there is. I’m don’t think that all of them have mental conditions or bizarre manifestations of a particular style of thinking alone.
Contrarians like them may be fuelled by other needs and the social milieu / historical era they live in may play upon their strings as well. Celebrity culture seems to be a trend that inspires many internet raconteurs as well as reality television.
I venture that woo-meisters may have failed in their childhood quest to become scientists or respectable educators- this thread runs through their play acting. Kalichman talks about narcissism being common amongst denialists he’s met.
The idea that a random vitamin merchant or a warrior mother can easily critique all of medicine, psychology and education as well as untangle worldwide conspiracies is itself urealistic, even loony.
If you read what the usual suspects write or broadcast, raging anger at successful people, the establishment and medical professionals prevails. They seem to be screaming, “I deserve more!” Hopefully their activities will bring them fame and admiration.
Autism One starts in a few days, we can observe the endless posturing, red carpet, book signings and movie premiers up close.
Anyone live in or near Chicago?
I am generally always happy to have a reason to go to Chicago, but even if I weren’t going to be knee-deep in a theatrical premier during half of the conference, I can think of other ways I’d rather spend my money than on registration for Autism One.
But JP you would make a most excellent reporter!
Although listening to them would probably make you want to pull your hair out ( heh).
Narad would be sublime but he may have money issues.
@Narad:
I think the whole “I have come to the conclusion” bit was just to indicate that that was not based on anything except my own observations over a what has still been a relatively short life. I also have had some annoyance with that particular truism, due to the ken-like attitude of assuming that anybody who is BOOK SMURT must obviously have some sort of glaring deficit to even things out or something. I was the focus of this particular false assumption for many years, said deficit usually being said to be in the area of “common sense” or whatever. Having done some subsequent comparisons of myself and the people who felt compelled to cut down the tall poppy, I have come to the conclusion that they were largely full of sh*t.
@Denice:
$99 can buy a lot of beer. Or Malört.
Anyone live in or near Chicago?
I do, but I have better things to do on a holiday weekend.
# 909- Merely asking if anyone felt that this program by GSK is ok and if given the chance that a new patient might pick one Doctor over the other (if full disclosure was given)?
Further if anyone felt that it negates or enhances in anyway influences that could arise?
The one who does not take the rebate has less motivation to accept any new GSK drug that comes on line… pretty sure that could be a least be a “possibility” in any debate.
Do not see why that is too hard to interpret. Looking beyond maybe?
Did not say they were Dr. Evil.
If 3 out of 4 Doctors accept the rebate, was asking “anyone” if they felt this lone doctor was of any higher moral conviction than the others as he/she does not want to be saddled with this rebate as a weight to his/her standing as both citizen or Doctor.
Simple yes or no’s here really. I think that is what polls generally are.
#923 – I will get more info for you.
Noah, how does that alleged fraud compare to Andrew Wakefield changes to the data of his small case study of a dozen kids. paying for blood at a birthday party and not declaring his conflict of interest in regards to UK tax funded legal aid from Richard Barr?
And how does what you allege exonerate Mike Adams from comparing vaccination to rape and Rand Paul declaring children are property?
950 – did not call it an alleged fraud. You just did. Was just asking if anyone thought this practice acceptable. Use rebate or kickback, your choice. I am sure ongoing and many are aware.
Cannot seem to be able to get an opinion on that.
This is one Pediatric practice in one city in the USA. Assume this program is far reaching.
Did not know this would an apples to oranges comparison.
Seems like a deflection to me.
I guess if you not do have a comment on whether this rebate program is acceptable in your opinion (and was only asking for a opinion on the specific questions of anyone choosing to comment) then we will not be getting one from you.
…and one less potty mouth in the chorus.
Proper Johnny
Accept no substitutes
Noah: “Seems like a deflection to me. ”
Pot, meet kettle.
You are deflecting from above article depiction of several anti-vaccine person by alleging one pediatric practice is doing something. A description you gave without any references but started with “Subject: (and true story). ” Why should we believe you?
Did you make it up to deflect from the outrageous actions described in the above article, which are documented at their primary source.
I presume you mean bassline. Anyway, you volunteering to play it?
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-765092.html
#953 – One of the original questions posed was #4 of the original post as noted from # 898
“4. Anyone think that these rebates do not occur and this story is a fabrication? ”
Again, a yes or no answer could suffice. Then someone could explain further. Becoming clear that most seem unwilling or unable.
Do these type of questions make some nervous?
Looking for motive?
These simple questions were posed in hopes that someone could engage them. I guess not.
Again, you don’t have to believe but only asked you if you did.
Nothing to do with any above article ? and not sure what you might be referencing, but I will back track to check it out.
Noah: “Again, you don’t have to believe but only asked you if you did.”
I am not interested in fables, but only evidence. Your little story means nothing unless you provide supporting documentation. The Australian Anti Vaccination Network is not actual evidence.
“Nothing to do with any above article ? and not sure what you might be referencing,”
Are you actually posting your word salad wall of of text comments without actually reading the above article. You actually did not know about these bit:
and
I wouldn’t be inclined to spend around two hours each way in transit on the CTA in any event, and it doesn’t align with my sleep schedule.
There’s also the small issue of not really looking the part for an undercover mission.
# 956 – Again, what in the hell does this copy you have posted twice have anything to do with the questions I posed ? Just asking for an opinion. An opinion. I did not post this original # 898 to follow “the” thread or narrative. Just an original entry, a question of the readers and posters and nothing more. Why can’t anyone handle that?
You have now just called me a liar.
No, again I did not read the post that you have referenced twice now, and I read your alert to it the first time. I can see how you may have thought I was following the thread, but I was not. So, have I made that clear? My apologies if I misled.
No one here seems to want to offer a yes/no response for fear they may step out of their own narrative?
Congratulations you have all reduced yourselves to attacking me personally BRAVO BRAVO !#handclap #winning
I am an executive, financial analyst, health enthusiasts, and a new father I look at this from a totally different angle than you.
I asked what is causing chronic diseases in children and none of you had a working theory.
@Tboner and you have a Business Degree. In Finance! You know, I have a Doctorate. In Medicine!
Great then answer the question smart ass! make it easy for my simple brain to understand since you have a doctorate and I only have a bachelors degree. Surely you have a good theory don’t you? or are you waiting for the high priest ORAC to tell you?
For the 4th time WTF is causing chronic diseases in children?
JP and NOBRED I envision both of you as court jesters or yard gnomes. useless decorations hehe
JGC
May 16, 2015
They are observing links of ingredients in vaccines to chronic disease.
One more time, Theo: what evidence indicates that at exposure levels achievable by routine childhood vaccination any of the ingredients in vaccine formulations are toxic or otherwise harmful? Be specific.
You must have some-right?
Of course the evidence is all around all of you but your cognitive dissonance and inability to do the mental gymnastics necessary to ANALYZE the data wont allow you to see it.
Conclusions/Significance
Systemic autoimmunity appears to be the inevitable consequence of over-stimulating the host’s immune ‘system’ by repeated immunization with antigen, to the levels that surpass system’s self-organized
criticality.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2795160/
At 12h after in vitro re-stimulation of the PBMC with pertussis toxin (PT) antigen, 14 immune response pathways, 33 allergy-related and 66 asthma-related genes were found activated.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=18336961
@johhnySmokescreens of SBS aka (scientific BS) sprang up with paid, and yes voluntary minions, all pumping the smoke, denying the facts, in a booblebabble of septic weave,
Accept no limitations LMFAO
If you want to start discussion on unrelated hypotheticals, get your own blog. Or if you must, an open thread on a blog that hosts those, which Respectful Insolence does not.
Don’t drop them far down the comment threads about a specific, unrelated topic and then complain when people don’t want to answer your questions on that unrelated subject.
FTFY.
# 923 – In response to your direct question. GSK offers a rebate on a quarterly basis. This can fluctuate depending on volume. The average is about 12,000 a year historically in rebates it seems . Did not say if wrong or right.
Ok I get it now. Same thing I felt in the beginning. If not a disciple or devout follower, then not welcome. Pretty creepy actually. These comments everyone avoided like a Big Pharma plague “were” in the sphere of the overall discussion.
Yes this is Orac’s blog, no doubt about that. Pretty plain to see.
Seems most here either overly intelligent to the point they cannot even give an opinion on a entirely personal level, or cannot change a gear to offer one. Maybe then, not intelligent enough.
I can feel the little beads of sweat forming on your brow from here. Should I respond? Should I not?
Is it a trap?
Chess move?
If you have an opinion might that poke a little hole in your armor? Either a yes or no has implications to your cause?
You have made it “very” clear I have hit a sore spot (or pocket book). So I could care less if this is the “Big Boy” club or not. So officially kicked off by executive order? So be it.
So go on with the “good work” along with your spell checks and overt criticism.
You consider the observation that you’re plainly Iliya Torbica crawled back out of the woodwork with a fresh batch pseudonyms to be a “personal attack”? Did you miss the part where people have been observing over and over that you’re a jabbering halfwit who changes the subject when pressed on anything all along?
“GSK offers a rebate on a quarterly basis.”
I’d be surprised if GSK was stupid enough to be funneling cash directly to physicians on a regular basis to use their “services”, seeing as how GSK was hit with a $3 billion penalty just three years ago for a health fraud case in which they handed out free meals and spa treatments to some docs as part of their illegal drug promotions. Cash kickbacks would be even worse.
I suggest you pass on your knowledge of such an activity (if it exists beyond a hypothetical) to state and federal prosecutors, who’d be eager to handle the case. And there might be a cash rebate (excuse me, whistleblower $$$) in it for you from the government as a percentage of whatever fines were levied.
Perhaps you could cease being coy and inform us which “services” these pediatricians are allegedly using in exchange for purported kickbacks.
“The Australian Anti Vaccination Network is not actual evidence.”
I’m not sure they’re actual human beings with a full set of chromosomes.
Last one… thanks folks…
This is first person witness comment in her own words so cannot be twisted or interpreted to mind bend gymnastics. Please don’t take issue with the forum as probably only one of the very few she has. If not already see of course.
I am sure the great one will take it down. Only 6 mins and urge you to watch it.
No, you have trotted out a hopelessly underspecified hypothetical and started stomping your feet while crying “What do you think of them apples? Huh? Huh? Huh?”
Your failure to stick the last two flounces doesn’t lend much confidence.
Congratulations, you’ve reinvented the dumbest comment of all time.
Of course, they do have at least one not Sooper Sekrit rebate program.
“I can feel the little beads of sweat forming on your brow from here. Should I respond? Should I not?
Is it a trap?
Chess move?”
Is it safe?
Theo, when you ask a question and the next sentence is a declaration of refusal to listen to any answers that you don’t like, why should anyone bother?
damn that pesky aluminum.
@JGC
This strongly suggests that long-term adjuvant biopersistence within phagocytic cells is a prerequisite for slow brain translocation and delayed neurotoxicity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25699008
By the way I am obsessed with this topic and have numerous reliable sources I use to make decisions. I just need to trust the right research and the right doctors.
I bet you would Call Kelly Brogan MD a Quack too.
This Women is a straight up BADASS! She has come to the other side did the mental gymnastics and GETS IT. Cornell and MIT? must be a MORON? She has some scathing blogs too.
One to watch.
http://kellybroganmd.com/credentials/
As for Mark Hyman he is director of Functional Medicine at the Cleveland Clinic and he is a loon? WTF is a matter with you?
Thank you. But I still don’t understand the allegation.
A rebate on what? The volume of what?
Are the doctors buying the drugs from GSK and then selling them to patients? Or….I don’t know.
What are the terms of the deal and how does it work? What do the doctors have to do or not do to get the quarterly $$$$? Write prescriptions? Hit sales quotas? Or what?
In case it’s not clear what I’m asking —
Are we talking about something like:
If a doctor bulk-purchases enough of GSK’s MMR vaccine in a three-month period, there’s a rebate?
I assume not, because it’s not a kickback. But it’s what “rebate” usually means. So I’m stumped. And that’s why I’m asking what the terms of the deal are.
Noah, Kelly Brogan is a quack. Just because she attended excellent schools doesn’t mean she’s not a quack.
I particularly like this: “I would imagine so, but it suggests that surgical birth should be reserved for the fewer than 10 percent of true emergencies that could not otherwise have been prevented by allowing a woman to labor at her own pace, in her own comfort zone, without any interventions… the way it’s been done for millions of years.”
http://pathwaystofamilywellness.org/Pregnancy-Birth/birthing-bliss-birthing-trauma-and-postpartum-depression.html
Kelly was evidently out hunting and gathering during her Evolutionary Biology courses.
@ Narad:
Oh come on! Anyone can look the part as undercover: after all, this is AutismOne, they have C@nnabis4Autists there!
So you’re a hippy- pull your hair back, wear a striped cotton shirt and look awestruck.
-btw- if I can manage to pass at major woo extravaganzas, most anyone can.
O well. I hope someone can get there and report back for our enlightenment and entertainment. I’m too far away and I use ( most of ) my real name online ( so no ID)
@ Delphine:
Agreed. She’s a major crank who flaunts her credentials whilst dismissing others’.
She appears with Fearless Parent, PRN, GreenMed, TMR as well as being in every quackumentary to hit the sign-up- to-see-a-film circuit.
Noah is apparently using a variant of the boring dull over used Pharma Shill Gambit. It is not a valid replacement for actual data and evidence.
And, no, Noah I will not bother clicking on any Alex Jones video. Though if you wish to be amused, do read Them by Jon Ronson where hilariously talks about his experience with Mr. Jones.
Also, I did not accuse you of lying. I just asked you why we should believe you, since you did not provide a link to that “true story.”
ann: “If a doctor bulk-purchases enough of GSK’s MMR vaccine in a three-month period, there’s a rebate?”
Would it be relevant to point out that GSK does not sell its MMR vaccine in the USA? That would be Merck.
@#978 —
I said “something like”!!!!!
Seriously: Thanks. Might be good to know some day. But that was really just a hypothetical for the purpose of illustrating what kind of info I was requesting — ie, is this a rebate or is this a kickback?
Because if the former, it doesn’t necessarily say anything about their morals. It might. But it might just say something about the size of their practices or whatever..
THEO@972
Totally agree. Thanks for the links!
@Noah you are right we are dealing with a bunch of cowards who can’t offer up solutions just sling criticisms That nurse discussing respiratory issues is stunning. Yeah let’s give vaccines to 3 lb premature babies.
Insert gum in mouth
Theo, Noah- How do we know that you aren’t casting doubts on vaccines because you stand to make a profit? Cure is far more costly than prevention.
Yet Iliya’s logo has been deflated. Is it just me, or has there been a spate of irony-fueled self-immolations lately?
ann: “Because if the former, it doesn’t necessarily say anything about their morals. It might. But it might just say something about the size of their practices or whatever.”
Yeah, I mention it because if the “scenario” occurred in the UK, there may be different implications because of their NHS.
Are these trolls the worst trolls ever in the history of trolldom, or am I just romanticizing (I know, poor choice of words when talking about trolls) past trolls like Thingy? Noah and johnny and just excruciatingly stupid. They don’t even come up with the occasionally funny thing, like Thingy’s idea that kids left to themselves will always play on the sidewalk and stay out of the tetanus-laden dirt.
A shout out to Theo before I go. Hang in there and appreciate your comments and attempts to get past the wall here.
You tried to change ‘nyms. Sock puppets are not allowed. If you keep posting as “Noah,” your posts will go through.
For those who deny vaccine shedding-
MD Cancer Center
The Child Visitation Room provides a safe, supervised area for children when a family member is going to a restricted area…… All children in the visitation room must have a negative screen for recent illnesses, exposure to chickenpox or live vaccines.
If special permission is given for a child to visit a restricted area, they must be screened for recent polio vaccination. A child who has received oral polio vaccine within the past six weeks is prohibited from contact with immuno-suppressed patients.
http://www.mdanderson.org/patient-and-cancer-information/guide-to-md-anderson/patient-and-family-support/visitation-policy.html
Noah, Kelly Brogan is a quack. Just because she attended excellent schools doesn’t mean she’s not a quack.
Kelly Brogan, theocratic anti-contraception campaigner:
http://esciencecentral.org/journals/oral-contraceptives-mind-body-poison-2327-5162.1000124.php?aid=14379
#988 Who’s not reading? You accuse me of not reading? She is recommending a SAFER method like the IUD.
Candy @985
I hate to admit this, but I kind of miss Sid. Sure, he misrepresented facts (e.g., the actual text of CA law) on a regular basis and he did occasionally go off the rails, but at least there was some logic to his arguments. I could see how he and I fundamentally disagreed.
As for the current crop? I can’t find enough coherent thoughts in their comments to respond to them. In light of lilady’s passing, I shall now thank those of you who have.
#988 Who’s not reading? You accuse me of not reading?
It’s not all about you, ken.
And what the fυck is this supposed to have to do with school exemptions?
You’ve already demonstrated that convincingly. By contrast, the case above is one of your demonstrating that you don’t think, either, as though that were necessary.
We (tinw) can’t miss you if you won’t actually go away, as you keep promising.
Don’t worry, “Anna” is now here to lend Iliya some MLM AdvoCaring.
Points to note about this particular screed:
1. The journal is from the Omics stable. Omics journals are renowned as bottom-feeding mockademic puke-funnels that will print anything as long as the cheque clears; non-loons do not publish in Omics journals; the grifters are aware of their negative reputation, so they have spun off a number of ‘ghost brands’ like the present ‘esciencecentral.org’ to shake off some of the stench. Because grifters.
http://scholarlyoa.com/2014/12/18/the-omics-publishing-groups-empire-is-expanding/
Kelly Brogan is the kind of person who has to pay “Alternative & Integrative Medicine” to publish her deep thoughts. Enough said.
2. The stated uninterest in evidence:
–Note that reference [2] leads to a study of curcumin as an antidepressant, in mice, and the relevance to women and antidepressants exists only in Kelly Brogan’s overheated imagination.
This is some high-grade academic incompetence. Did I mention that Ref. [1] in the letter leads nowhere at all? After that I gave up.
3. The language:
“Tacit permissiveness toward reckless unprotected sex”? The central existence of a woman is reduced to “feedback systems that fire up her reproductive age vitality”?
Brogan grudgingly concedes that some women are degenerate sluts who are not content with this: “If it’s not enough to celebrate their right to an optimally functioning hormonal system, and they also want to preserve their right not to have a fertilized egg, then I recommend a non-hormonal IUD”.
She also recommends, “chaste tree”, which is I can only interpret as “chastity” after it went through the Omics editorial process.
Perhaps Brogan is not personally a feckin’ christianist Talibangelist theocrat, perhaps she is only speaking the language of Talibangelist theocracy because that’s where the money and influence are.
Hey ken…are you aware that the oral polio vaccine hasn’t been used in the USA in many years? And yes, we are all aware that the OPV causes shedding – that’s one reason it’s used in areas where polio is endemic, to help protect other members of the family who might be exposed to polio. But it’s not an issue in the US.
MD Anderson has patients from all over the world, some of whom might have had the OPV recently or might have family members (children, grandchildren) who had. Because of immunosuppression risks, those persons who had OPV need to be kept away from the patients.
It would be really nice if you understood things BEFORE you posted them.
Noah, if as you claim the evidence is all around me it should be a trivial exercise to point it out to me. Please do so.
I’m thinking Noah has to be Iliya–he’s referenced the same article about deliberating inducing autoimmunity in mice by repeated immunization I believe Iliya has in the past in an attempt to handwave an argument that the recommended schedule may do the same.
@herr doktor bimler
Chaste tree is an actual tree (I have one in the back yard, I like the shape and the flowers and the butterflies and other nectar eaters enjoy the flowers as well).
It was historically used to lower the libido. Strangely enough it actually has some hormone like compounds in the berries, but nothing that seems to be all that effective for much in the clinical trials.
For the Record calling Kelly Brogan a quack is what is wrong with medical establishment. Why are you so frightened? How about ask this question? Why would a young Medical doctor with impeccable credentials properly trained jump ship and come out against vaccines? WHY? That is the important question not sitting back on your throne and name calling. This is what a paradigm shift looks like folks wake up its happening.
Nearly everything ORAC puts out fall into this category.
What is an error? Put simply, it is a mismatch between our predictions and the outcomes. Put in systems terms, an “error” is an action that looks like a success when viewed through a narrow lens, but whose disruptive additional effects become apparent when we zoom out.
Why do predictions fail to anticipate major complications? Ironically the exquisite precision of our science may itself promote error generation. This is because precision is usually achieved by ignoring context and all the variation outside of our narrow focus, even though biological systems in particular are intrinsically variable and complex rather than uniform and simple. In fact our brains utilize this subtlety and context to make important distinctions, but our scientific methods mostly do not. The problems that come back to bite us then come from details we didn’t consider.
Once an error is entrenched it can be hard to change course. The initial investment in the error, plus fear of the likely expense (both in terms of time and money) of correcting the error, as well as the threat of damage to the reputations of those involved — these all serve as deterrents to shifting course. Patterns of avoidance then emerge that interfere with free and unbiased conduct of scientific investigations and public discourse. But if the error is not corrected, its negative consequences will continue to accumulate. When change eventually becomes unavoidable, it will be a bigger, more complicated, and expensive problem to correct – with further delay making things still worse.
Personally, I think a large part of the brewing paradigm shift in medical science (which I expect to predominate in the near future) comes from the very tension that Herbert describes between the view of bodies, biological systems, as machines that respond predictably and reliably to a particular force or intervention and the view of bodies as “intrinsically variable and complex.” Virtually every area of biological research has identified outliers to every kind of treatment or intervention that are not explainable in terms of the old paradigm, arguing for a more individualized approach to medicine that takes the whole person into account.
As a paradigm is stretched to its limits, anomalies — failures of the current paradigm to take into account observed phenomena — accumulate. Their significance is judged by the practitioners of the discipline. . . But no matter how great or numerous the anomalies that persist, Kuhn observes, the practicing scientists will not lose faith in the established paradigm until a credible alternative is available;
The titanic is sinking and you bafoons are still at the bar getting drunk on shiny turds called peer review and the collective dogma you believe.
http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/anti-science-you-keep-using-that-word-i-do-not-think-it-means-what-you-think-it-means/
Orac already covered that article, THEO:
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2015/05/08/science-you-keep-using-that-word-i-do-not-think-it-means-what-you-think-it-means/
Heheheh. You best me to it. 🙂
Chaste tree is an actual tree (I have one in the back yard, I like the shape and the flowers and the butterflies and other nectar eaters enjoy the flowers as well).
It was historically used to lower the libido.
Many thanks. I have learned something new today. Still, if Brogan is offering her clients an anaphrodisiac (however ineffective) in lieu of contraception, this does not speak any better of her character.
I see that she also promotes a computerised rhythm method calculator. No wonder she hates the HPV vaccines. Oh noes, people are having the sex without suffering in consequence!
It would be really nice if you understood things BEFORE you posted them.
Optimist.
Theo, it is impossible to talk to goats. The only option open is to wait for them all to die off. It is only the same 4 or 5 people who keep popping up, well one less now. So the future can only improve the situation.
Apparently vaccines are so safe no one can possibly die from having one. That’s medical science-in a class all on its own.
johnny, that was utterly heartless. Apologize. Now.
“Cure is far more costly than prevention.” Greyfukwit
Well it is if you are selling snake oil medication. The best prevention is to avoid seeing a doctor for health advice. How many doctors websites have advice on a good diet?
More specifically, how can you revel in lilady’s death? That is disgusting.
It’s also not possible to kill them by staring at them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Men_Who_Stare_at_Goats
johnny’s latest comment addressed at me is also pretty bad:
1) Obscenity is not clever.
2) Does he not know how much was spent treating the latest measles outbreak?
3) Mainstream doctors do discuss nutrition. If he spend five minutes outside his little “alternative” bubble, he’d know that.
You believe harsher language is required? Perhaps, but that puts you into the moderation queue, so l think it’s best I stick with ‘quack’.
Does it mater why? The only meaningful question is (whatever her motivation) there is a body of evidence which supports her oppsition to routine vaccination. To date neither she nor anyone else has identified any, despite assertions “it’s all around us”.
Chasteberry is Vitex agnus casta: woo-meisters and herbalistst/wysewomyn see recommend it for nearly everything that could be related to female hormones- supposedly, its anaphrodisiac qualities were utilised by Christian nuns and given to Roman soldiers’ wives during their husbands’ absence. Also called Monk’s Pepper.
I can’t find my herbal book ( Michael Tierra) – which lists its compounds- right now but see herbwisdom.com for a taste of the woo.
@1006 —
He’s just going to amp it up. He’s nothing if not monotonously predictable.
…
I really can’t imagine what it would be like to feel that weak, frightened, and angry. But I’m sure that it’s as much to be pitied as censured.
For practical purposes, I guess it doesn’t matter, though.
Naah. He’s trying to get banned so he can brag about how dangerous he is.
Reading #1000
It’s cute then a young enthusiast comes around and reinvents the wheel right in front of our eyes.
Well, one can argue he is jumping the bandwagon and hoging some new terms he barely understand, like “epigenetics”. Or “immune system”, for that matter.
(trotting outliers in front of biologists, seriously?)
Re: the troll
I almost posted yesterday something about stopping feeding the troll, as he is doing a very good job all by himself at gathering enough ropes to hang himself, metaphorically speaking.
(the bit about his citations being set in stone, but our citations being just “anecdotes” was priceless in this regard)
I’m not surprised he went so far. Someone whose only motive here is to rile us up won’t stop at anything.
Well, right now he has enough ropes to hang himself a hundred times.
Again, metaphorically speaking.
As bank robber Willie Sutton said: “Because that’s where the money is.” Gotta pay for that Madison Avenue office somehow.
I have much more respect for Sutton. He only threatened the lives of people within shooting range.
More like pathetic. That’s a better word to describe it.
So johnny who claims to be a medical professional- and is probably a Christian, given the videos- gloats over someone’s death.
Unfortunately, I predicted that lilady’s opponents would do as much early on the obituary post. ChrisP notes how Parker behaved as well. One time I don’t enjoy being right.
IN the past few months, TMR has lost one of their own, BK, and the anti-vaccine community lost Dr Mayer Eisenstein, whom they held in high regard as an excellent doctor and advisor.
I didn’t see any scoffing by SBM supporters at AoA ,TMR and related websites because of *their* losses. Believe me, they would tell their followers about how despicable we all are if we did so, even if they didn’t publish the comments.
And WE’RE the heartless ones!
re Brogan’s “impeccable credentials”-
right, just like Peter Duesberg’s and Luc Montagnier’s prior to their respective conversions to hiv/aids denialism-
which sort of botched their resumes.
Heck, even Andrew Wakefield had halfway decent credentials before he turned antivax.
One need look no further than Dr. Oz, who was a very well respected cardiothoracic surgeon prior to his descent into an uncritical embrace of all things woo, to demonstrate having “impeccable credentials” just ain’t enough.
Yeap. That’s not your equipment that matters, it’s that you do with it.
What about the Jimmy Kimmel experiments?
10 out of 10 kids preferred a lollipop to vaccination!
Don’t go into the light, Carol Anne!!! The TV people are banging on their keyboards from their sales-job call center cubicles across the nation.
The vaccines are falling, the vaccines are falling.
Just try and stay out of my way. I’ll get you, my pretty, and your little dog, too!
What a world…what a world….
Why would a young Medical doctor with impeccable credentials properly trained jump ship and come out against vaccines?
I do not offer psychiatric diagnoses across the intertubes. Not unless someone pays me to. Professional ethics!
Naah. He’s trying to get banned so he can brag about how dangerous he is.
Johnny has so little class, he’s a Marxist utopia. I was wondering how long he could resist the temptation to gloat.
AND ‘why would a young medical doctor with impeccable credentials properly trained’..
become a member of Fearless Parent Radio/ show and blog, write for Green Med Info, maintain a woo-fraught website, present at AutismOne, take part in woo-drenched films etc?
Beats me.
Easier money than working 60-70 hours weekly as a regular doctor? Less fashion restrictions? She likes vegan restaurants more than steakhouses?
Denice Walter and the rest of you including the high priest ORAC
AND ‘why would a young medical doctor with impeccable credentials properly trained jump ship?
Let me answer this. its quite simple she has learned the TRUTH and is now a leader and leading voice for this new paradigm. Not this toxic soup of chemical quackery you all pimp out.
Your reign is eroding a new paradigm is well underway! She sees it. you don’t
I dont need a medical degree to see whats going on. This is a no brainer!
What its this truth?
Functional Medicine, Nutrigenomics, Nutrition, epi-gentics Holistic view, MicroBiome etc
Its happening so rapidly its amazing. This new science OVERRIDES your archaic antiquated outdated pharmaceutical model. which includes vaccines and all the other drugs you peddle.
Whats really fascinating about all of this? All your precious degrees never taught you this new science that is emerging. BAHAAAAA Your like a commodore computer from APPLE back in the 1980s unable to compute. Your training is dangerous to the American people You have no new ideas just more continuing education funded by drug companies promoting the never ending pipeline of drugs and vaccines the human bodies don’t require. Who’s the idiot now? You better go back and learn about nutrition. You know that subject you don’t know shit about? Its over for you unless you change like Brogan did.
“Years later, as a newly minted doctor on the wards seeing real patients, I found myself in the same position. I was still getting a lot of questions about food and diet. And I was still hesitating when answering. I wasn’t sure I knew that much more after medical school than I did before.” translation he was completely ignorant
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/16/health/16chen.html?_r=1&
The link between food and health is well documented but people still struggle to find the right balance between energy intake and energy expenditure. Whether its malnutrition or over-consumption, people are looking for disease preventing and health promoting foods that match their lifestyles, cultures and genetics. Nutritional genomics is a systems approach to understanding the relationship between diet and health and will ensure that everyone benefits from the genomic revolution.
Whose goal is to take proven nutrition- and immunity-based technologies and deliver them as health solutions to developing and low-income countries. The GHSI’s initial focus will be to use mucosal immunity and bioactive foods to reduce cardiovascular disease, infectious disease and malnutrition.
Now thats exciting!! and the future!
H/T Ken http://nutrigenomics.ucdavis.edu
@johnny Goats? your too much
I finally made it to the end of this thread. A lot of the disagreement seemed incoherent at best, but maybe I am just tired.
You have my sincere condolences.
She also charges 1000 US$ cash for an initial consultation and $450 for a 40 minute followup. No on-call, no committee work. Nice work if you can get it!
#1030 TB
She certainly is not prescribing these drugs….
“Sales of aripiprazole and its competitors, quetiapine (Seroquel) and olanzapine (Zyprexa), have skyrocketed. At more than $450 a bottle, Abilify was prescribed to nearly 9 million Americans in 2014 and grossed $7.8 billion — making it the second best-selling drug in the U.S., just behind the new (and very expensive) hepatitis C drug Sovaldi, according to healthcare analytics company IMS Health.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/catferguson/the-antipsychotic-boom?utm_term=.paLXk4oPZd#.ea1WEYVG
^^Is that more empathy I see?
Theo, your evidence that the ‘truth’ you believe she’s discovered actually is true, or that any of the ingredients in the vaccine formulations you characterize as ‘toxic soup’ actually are toxic at exposure levels achievable as a consequence of routine childhood vaccination, would be …what, exactly? Be specific.
Oh, wait–that’s right. You don’t have any.
I wouldn’t be surprised. I doubt that Brogan has very many, if any, people with schizophrenia in her practice.
Yah. I will credit Iliya for finally having come with a useful idea, though:
I heartily recommend “johnny Goats” as a form of reference for anyone who’s still responding to Phildo Hills.
^ Erm, “to anyone”; you get my drift.
Your like a commodore computer from APPLE back in the 1980s unable to compute.
I prefer to compare myself to a TRS-80 from Sinclair.
ohnny Goats?
And dozy doats and liddle lamzy divey
@TBruce
Precisely. I also doubt she treats bipolar 1 and schizoaffective disorder much. And the reason that Abilify has such high sales is that it’s the atypical that people are likeliest to find helpful as an adjunctive treatment for major depression.
However, I seem to recall that ken was able to resolve her problems with depression via CBT.
Hence my comment about empathy.
JGC
May 19, 2015
Theo, your evidence that the ‘truth’ you believe she’s discovered actually is true,
1000’s of testimonies of patients healing from chronic diseases across the world repeated over and over and over the restorative effects of food and nutrition are obvious and self evident.
Care to go test this hypothosis yourself?
Go eat Mcdonalds and have 16OZ sodas with each meal for 30 days
See how you feel afterwards check you blood.
Then have an organic gourmet chef cook for you for 30 days. Preparing Kale salads ,Grass fed beef,free range chickens, wild Salmon, Bone Broth supplemented with extra vitamins and minerals omega 3’s etc.
Do the blood tests and look in the mirror and OBSERVE.
There is your evidence…. Are you so rigid you need a study to prove this? This is the effing problem with you folks your a slave to peer review science and are waiting for others to dictate science to you. How about observable evidence in your own life? By the time this is all in published studies many years from now and a forgone conclusion (WHICH IT IS) you will be DEAD or your children will have missed out on this valuable information because of you were too stubborn and lacked the intellectual curiosity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3121546/
When people ask to see the evidence for Functional Medicine, they often mean, “Where are your research trials, comparing Functional Medicine to conventional medicine in a clinical setting?” Unfortunately, current research models do not have a way to test each individualized, patient-centered therapeutic plan that is tailored to a person with a unique combination of existing conditions, genetic influences, environmental exposures, and lifestyle choices. Clinical trials do play a significant role in evaluating and comparing the efficacy of new pharmaceutical treatments, especially when it is important to rule out placebo effects, but they have many inherent limitations which constrain their ability to inform clinical decision making.
– See more at: https://www.functionalmedicine.org/What_is_Functional_Medicine/Why/Evidence/#sthash.7FYdT8Kd.dpuf
In the event that there’s any confusion about it:
“Empathy” does not mean “the ability to share and understand the feelings of others when their being the same as yours makes it convenient, effortless and self-rewarding.”
It just means “the ability to share and understand the feelings of others.”
Something tells me that being an MLM scammer doesn’t actually allow for this sort of food budget, but if there’s one thing that immediately marks someone as either a poseur or an outright food ignoramus, it’s use of the barbarous neologism “bone broth.”
Quick, link a dynamo to Steve Jobs’ rotating corpse. The energy output could power New York for a few months.
Trivia: I read somewhere that space probes and rockets are using old computer technology (well, quite obviously for those sent two decades ago).
The reason being that it’s better to use tested technology rather than jumping on the new one before the bugs have been ironed out.
We all know the effect of overeating, of junk food, etc. Thanks for stating the obvious.
And all physicians I know would be very upset if I was only eating burgers and fries. They didn’t waited for you to discover this.
Between MacDo and organic kale, there is a large realm of balanced cuisine, you know.
Half of us here are not in America, you self-centered twit.
Missed this.
I prefer my vitamins and other nutrients coming from my food, thank you.
So much for eating “naturally”.
@Helianthus- THEO/iliya will probably say that we can’t get enough nutrients from food anymore due to soil depletion. Never mind that:
a) Vitamin and mineral deficiencies have well-documented effects that we are not seeing.
b) If the crops aren’t getting enough nutrition, they wouldn’t grow in the first place.
Also, THEO, let’s say you’re shopping for a new car. The salesman for one brand tells you about the quality brakes, and tells you the following:
1) His car’s brakes are capable of preventing all traffic accidents. There’s no other cause of accidents but poor braking.
2) No other company sells cars that have brakes, at all. Most manufacturers don’t even know what they are.
3) The stories you hear about drunk drivers were just invented by people selling cars without brakes. Whenever there’s an accident, people just assume that someone was drunk, without bothering to take any measurements.
Would you be inclined to trust that salesman? Tell me, then, why are you brazenly lying to us?
A kiddly divey too, wouldn’t you?
It’s amusing to me that THEO the Great, who is leading the way to the New Paradigm of Health and spearheading The Revolution, doesn’t know the difference between “your” and “you’re”.
It’s simple. Substitute “you are”. If it makes sense , it’s you’re. If it doesn’t make sense, it’s “your”.
However, it might not work in this case, because nothing THEO writes makes sense.
It is amusing that suppletwit moans about the need for sup’s because soils are depleted of essential soiliness while flogging sup’s many of which are made of ground up plant bits grown on …
@THEO
Do all of your “reliable sources” have the same unusual belief that Down Syndrome is caused by a single gene, or are they not all reliable on that point?
JGC
Or that any of the ingredients in the vaccine formulations you characterize as ‘toxic soup’ actually are toxic at exposure levels achievable as a consequence of routine childhood vaccination, would be …what, exactly? Be specific.
Although the brain has classically been considered “immune-privileged”, current research suggests that there is extensive communication between the nervous and the immune systems in both health and disease (Carson et al., 2006; McAllister and van de Water, 2009). The primary goal of this review is to discuss recent evidence that a large number of “immune” proteins are expressed in the central nervous system (CNS) where they play critical modulatory roles in activity-dependent refinement of connections, synaptic transmission, synaptic plasticity, and homeostasis during brain development. These roles for immune molecules during neural development suggest that they could also mediate pathological responses to chronic elevations of cytokines in neurodevelopmental disorders, including autism spectrum disorders (ASD) and schizophrenia.
Implications for Neurodevelopmental Disorders
The formation of functional neuronal circuits in the CNS during development provides the substrate for human learning, memory, perception, and cognition. Improper formation or function of these synapses may lead to a number of neurodevelopmental disorders including ASD and schizophrenia. ASD and schizophrenia are complex diseases that appear to be caused by combinations of genetic changes and environmental insults during early development (Boulanger, 2004; Arion et al., 2007; Patterson, 2009). Although a wide range of environmental stimuli have been proposed to play a role in the pathogenesis of these disorders, many of these stimuli have in common the ability to “ALTER IMMUNE FUNCTION” <——- BINGO
Vaccines alter immune function and disrupt the CNS
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3059681/
When you take into account Flouride in the water, Glyphospate, BPA, insecticides, food additives etc each infant comes into the world with varying level of toxicity in the body. So you now you have newborns already with elevated levels of toxins coming from the umbilical cord.
Then you start administering powerful vaccines with more toxins and inflammatory effects. This overwhelms the threshold and the infants ability to process it. This leads to activated microglia in the brain resulting in developmental disorders. This is why not everyone is equally impacted by vaccines. Some mothers eat healthy others don't Some babies tolerate it others don't.
This is not as difficult as you make it… Toxicity and Deficiency DUH!!!!
This is why we are screaming for susceptibility tests prior to vaccinating. One size fits all medicine is not based on science. Thats nonsense WOO
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/newborn-babies-chemicals-exposure-bpa/
“Something tells me that being an MLM scammer doesn’t actually allow for this sort of food budget, but if there’s one thing that immediately marks someone as either a poseur or an outright food ignoramus, it’s use of the barbarous neologism “bone broth.” NOBred or inbred – you decide
It is actually cheaper to cook from scratch in the UK. Unfortunately the US has effectively banned fresh food from onsale – the size of the average yank speaks/weighs for itself. In the UK we have managed to stall the onslaught of the Monsanto but in the US the population just rolled over and accepted their fake food programme.
Narad – whatever you are – it’s a no brainer – shit food = ill health. However much a septic you are this can’t be up for debate. If 60% of the people with the gene for breast cancer don’t get breast cancer, why are idiots like you studying the 40%? Because you want to shore up a broken religion?
“Something tells me that being an MLM scammer doesn’t actually allow for this sort of food budget, but if there’s one thing that immediately marks someone as either a poseur or an outright food ignoramus, it’s use of the barbarous neologism “bone broth.” NOBred or inbred – you decide
It is actually cheaper to cook from scratch in the UK. Unfortunately the US has effectively banned fresh food from onsale – the size of the average yank speaks/weighs for itself. In the UK we have managed to stall the onslaught of the Monsanto but in the US the population just rolled over and accepted their fake food programme.
Narad – whatever you are – it’s a no brainer – Duff food = ill health. However much a septic you are this can’t be up for debate. If 60% of the people with the gene for breast cancer don’t get breast cancer, why are idiots like you studying the 40%? Because you want to shore up a broken religion?
“It’s amusing to me that THEO the Great, who is leading the way to the New Paradigm of Health and spearheading The Revolution, doesn’t know the difference between “your” and “you’re”.”T boner
YOu know what TB, you lot here don’t know the difference between a discussion and a rant. Is eating properly and resting a revolution, what kind of work gopher are you?
I suppose if I spent all day ‘researching’ complete wong and getting paid for it, maybe I would urinate on anything that threatened to take teddy away?
I am antivaccine and very proud of it. vaccination is a stupid idea, it doesn’t work and makes people chronically ill.
I don’t research complete wong. I don’t think Mr. Wong would take kindly to me snooping into his business.
What, ‘Merika’s banned fresh food–when did that happen?
Well no one’s told the farmer’s market down the street or the CSA’s or any of the grocery stores around here. Whatever will that plethora of locovore restaurants in these parts do now?!
I dunno Big Organic (if you think that conventionally grown food isn’t fresh even if it is picked off the tree and goes straight in my belly without any machinery grinding it up) seems to be getting it’s talons into more and more places, is isn’t just Whole Foods and weirds little coop’s anymore. Last I read Whole Foods was having to come up with cheaper foods (thus may lose its Whole Paycheck nick name) as way too many other groceries are selling organic foods for less.
Doesn’t sound banned to me? But maybe banned means something different in johnny-world.
Helianthus:
It depends on what you mean by “old”. 😉 But it’s true by just about any definition. There are several reasons. One is realibility, for sure. The stakes are much higher when you can never touch the computer again after launch. There’s also the limited market — space computing technology supplies a tiny volume compared to consumer electronics, which of course means they will evolve more slowly. And then there’s radiation — older technology does tend to be more resistant to damage from radiation because of larger wire sizes, so there is real reason to hesitate in jamming more circuits on a chip.
And sometimes there are just weird reasons. I know for an absolute fact that the computer that landed the Dream Chaser is about ten years old. Literally, as in it was manufactured probably ten years ago. That’s an unusual case, though; the computer was surplus from a program that got cancelled. Damn good computer too, and still a competitive design today.
🙂
Oh, johnykins, you’re always great for a laugh.
Theo, regarding your post at 1050, it’s completely non-responsive, offering not evidence that at exposure levels achievable as a consequence of vaccination any of the ingredients in vaccine formulations are toxic or otherwise harmful.
Care to try again, or is “Oooooh–ingredients! Scary stuff!” the best you have to offer?
what I see when I think of NARAD
http://tinyurl.com/n5gmof5
And lets not forget JP
http://tinyurl.com/ldzkv34
He’s sort of adorable, actually – quite a bit better looking than Iliya Torbica, in my opinion, but I am admittedly weird.
The glasses are almost accurate, actually, but I do not have such a fine mustache.
@ Calli
Thanks for the details. There were some reasons I didn’t think about.
As my lab director likes to say, everyday we learn something news.
#1034 TB You didn’t read the article. These were prescribed for depression.
“What’s happened recently is remarkably heavy marketing of antipsychotics,” Allen Frances, former chairman of the psychiatry department at Duke University School of Medicine, told BuzzFeed News. Doctors, he added, are prescribing antipsychotics for depression “too quickly, without clear indication, and under pressure from pharmaceutical companies.”Frances, who led the group that developed the fourth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, is an outspoken critic of the pharmaceutical industry. But he’s by no means the only expert who says antipsychotics are probably overused.”
#1039 ann See link
Suggest you read before commenting…..
http://www.buzzfeed.com/catferguson/the-antipsychotic-boom?utm_term=.paLXk4oPZd#.ea1WEYVG
BTW I felt like a zombie on Paxil…
I’m trying to understand the argument you’re advancing, ken. As far as I can tell it takes the form
1: Antipsychotics are likely being overprescribed
2: (sound of crickets chirping)
Therefore
3: Routine childhood vaccination is neither safe nor effective
Perhaps you could fill in that second step for us?
” Unfortunately the US has effectively banned fresh food from onsale”
Ah, so the aisles of produce I see when I walk into the grocer’s are a hologram.
(I use the term ‘grocer” advisedly. He has two stores, which I don’t think qualifies him to be a supermarket chain).
#1067 JGC
You conflate different issues because you did not read the posts addressed to 2 people by the nyms of ann and TB not related to vaccines.
ken @ #1065:
You have a point, right?
I thought of THEO and johnny earlier when I came across a reference to monte and shell games earlier. These are variants of the game ‘find the lady’ that have been used for centuries to part millions of fools from their money using a cunning combination of sleight of hand, deliberately looking inept, and the use of clumsily marked cards or cups and/or shills to make the mark believe he has figured out how to beat the con artist. He hasn’t, of course and will continue to lose money until he is cleaned out or the players are forced to skedaddle by the cops.
The first time I encountered the scam was in the early 80s in Amsterdam. I was familiar with it, having read a newspaper article, and was fascinated to see an example in the wild. One of my companions was not so lucky and fell for it hook, line and sinker, refusing to believe that his perceptions and emotions had been so carefully and successfully manipulated. He was begging me to lend him some money as we attempted to drag him away and IIRC he found some other sucker to lend him more money to throw after the past lot.
THEO and johnny’s protestations that no one could be so dumb as to fall for the scam of SBM strongly remind me of my friend’s anger when I wouldn’t believe he had seen through ‘find the lady’. When you are focused on only one part of ‘the game’ and allow your attention to be distracted by false information you can find yourself believing in BS just as strongly as my friend did. If you don’t see the bigger picture you may find yourself being manipulated to believe whatever someone else wants you to believe.
Good grief.
Well, well, if it isn’t the same old, trivially false excuse provided by homeopaths.
@Narad: Worth noting many of these people specializing in “individualized” treatments prescribe the exact same cure for everything. Again, my car salesman analogy in #1045 applies.
Since Ken is predictably f(l)oundering, allow me:
2. Kelly Brogan isn’t a Big pHARMa sherson, but rather a Truth Teller who has Seen The Light.
#1071 Kreb Amazing slight of hand-watched many in NY- wise enough not to play.
Declined further Paxil. Declined Levaquin. Declined Lipitor.
Diet and exercise work. (symptoms aggravated by sugar and dairy) Only anecdotal but it works for me.
@ken- So? They don’t work for measles. If they did, large numbers of American Indians wouldn’t have died off so quickly.
#1074
Narad refer back to #1069
I am biased and have heard too many anecdotes. I will not advise people to vaccinate or not vaccinate. My children and grandchildren have been vaccinated.
My grandchild had a very bad reaction to the DTap at 6 yrs old and had to receive IV fluids. No lasting effects but scary.
#1076 OBVIOUSLY
ken, if nobody can figure out what you’re trying to say, maybe the issue is with you.
Buzzfeed interviewed an anti-pharmacology campaigner about the Secret that Psychiatrists Don’t Want You to Know!
You won’t believe what happens next!!
So even after stipulating the healthiest diet he can imagine, Iliya still can’t resist the temptation to pimp his feckin’ MLM pills?
This is RI, you doofus; no-one here is going to contribute to your income stream, you can take a break from the relentless advertising.
#1080
Allen Frances is a professor emeritus at Duke University and was the chairman of the DSM-IV task force.
@ken- And what does that have to do with vaccines? If the answer is “nothing”, then why are you going on about it in a thread about vaccines?
@ken —
I know they’re prescribed to treat depression. As I said:
Sorry if my not mentioning the Seroquel and Zyprexa specifically confused you.
But I wasn’t effing replying to anything specific to the article.
I was replying to your saying that Little Miss Quack MD didn’t prescribe those drugs, as if it would be to any doctor’s credit that he or she didn’t.
Yes, I remember you’re mentioning something like that before. I’m glad you were able to find another way of addressing the depression. It’s treatment-resistant for more than a few, no matter what they do.
A lot of people are helped by those drugs, although many are not. But since people who can’t tolerate them are free to stop taking them, as you did, I don’t really see what you have to gain by holding onto a narcissistic grudge about it. Depression is difficult to treat. Those drugs work for some people who haven’t been helped by SSRIs or SNRIs alone. And empathy still means what I said it did.
I mean, what thing so terrible that it can’t be forgiven happened to you? A treatment was tried; it made you feel transiently unwell; you discontinued it. End of story.
It’s not even like there’s a need to publicize it for the greater good, at this point. Millions of people have probably had that experience by now and survived it unharmed.
Let me ask you something, as a matter of fact. Was it a complete surprise to you that the Paxil was sedating? Or did the doctor who prescribed it mention that it might be? Or did you already know it? Or what?
It’s not all about you, irrespective. But as long as we’re talking about you, I’d be curious to know.
@Gray Falcon
Because a troll has to troll and staying on topic means they put fewer lines in water so less likely to get the continued negative attention that keeps them alive.
#1084 Exactly what are your qualifications? Better qualified than Allen Francis to comment?
Allen Frances is a professor emeritus at Duke University and was the chairman of the DSM-IV task force.
I agree that atypicals are overprescribed, btw. So are SSRIs, ftm.
I don’t actually think that….Well. Never mind. It’s a long story. The short version is that they’re both overprescribed, but (as far as I’m aware), the problem with that is people not being helped rather than people being hurt.
– and how about those Canucks, eh?
Since I’m considered a troll- just ignore my posts. I’m fair.
Ken, if it’s only anecdotal you don’t know if it works for you, do you?
You may believe it does, in the same manner you might believe wearing your lucky socks on game day will increase the likelihood your team will win the ball game, but that’s hardly the same thing.
ken — our very own Emily Litella.
If people don’t wnat to put them on the back of school children’s chairs the government sholdn’t force them to….What? Oh–that’s very different.
Never mind.
You seem to have a very severe problem with recognizing when someone is already a step or more ahead of you. I had to do that in order to go back further, Sherlock. Are you unable to recognize links if they’re properly marked up?
Yet you’re more than happy, for no reason whatever, to mindlessly barf up a stock antivaccine talking point that has recently been making the rounds.
Who the fυck cares? This is just your standard fallback attempt at deflection.
Allen Frances is a professor emeritus at Duke University and was the chairman of the DSM-IV task force.
Credentialism? Really?
Each recension of the DSM has been an interesting social phenomenon. Also an exercise in careerist log-rolling and claim-staking, with various lobby groups contending to get an official imprimatur (i.e. insurance coverage) for their speciality. The key criterion for inclusion of a purported syndrome in the DSM has always been whether a large enough group of psychologists are making money by claiming to treat it. It has about as much scientific validity as the Diet of Worms or Vatican II.
I am happy to believe that some perfectly decent people were involved in the sausage-making so I do not hold Allen Frances’ participation against him. If he wants to spread his message through bottom-feeding click-bait churnalists like Buzzfeed, good luck to him.
@#1086
I agree with Francis, ffs.
That has nothing to do with my point.
So if you have a non-heartless, non-witless case to make against the overprescription of psychotropic medications, which occurs because there are many people — quite a few of whom don’t have the luxury of other treatment options, as you did — for whom they’re helpful and whom doctors have no way of identifying in advance so that they can be separated from the great big cry-babies who can’t get over having briefly taken a mildly sedating medication once, please make it.
Because you purport to be about empathy, as I understand it.
(b)
Predictably, Brogan’s a fave of CCHR.
So if you want to know what all the doctors you were comparing unfavorably with her when you made your original, empathy-free post have going for them that she doesn’t, it’s this:
They’re not promoting the ideology and agenda of the Church of Scientology.
Goes a long way in my book.
I had a very bad reaction to the pertussis vaccine myself. But I can’t say it had no lasting effects because I haven’t f-cking had pertussis.
If the same is true for your grandchild, I humbly submit that it’s relevant. Because you know what else is very scary? Whooping cough. Children die of it. It potentially has the lasting effect of death.
The name of Kelly Brogan’s organisation — “Personalized Lifestyle Medicine Institute” — is a fair indication of her client base, i.e. narcissistic self-obsessed special snowflakes suffering from little more than a need for validation. She is careful to avoid dealing with sick people who might need medication.
On the topic of Brogan’s credentials, I am still wondering about the “Rudin Scholarship for Psychiatric Oncology” that she touts in all her biographies, and which has no existence outside her biographies. There is a “Louis and Rachel Rudin Scholarship” funding Cornell students, but it does not specialise.
It’s cute that the G&mdas;le Analytics custom ad campaign tracker is included. One can only wonder how Ken wound up with this paid-for search result.
So how do you know what is the right treatment for me with my exact set of existing conditions, genetic influences, environmental exposures, and lifestyle choices? How do you even know what the relevant genetic influences and environmental exposures even are? Cilantro tastes utterly foul to me, that’s genetic; is that relevant? I’ve lived in a number of different cities, is it relevant which ones, when, and for how long?
And assuming you have some answers to these and similar questions, how do you know you’re right?
Congrats to you
http://tinyurl.com/n8zm25x
THEO- You’re a total stranger we only know on the Internet. Why should we even consider trusting you?
@JP- thank you for the condolences. Really.
I have a stepson whose nickname is JP. Strangely, those aren’t his initials, and no one admits to knowing how those initials were chosen.
On the back-and-forth – I found the “individual” assertion ironic when contrasted with the recommended diet contrast (which was the same regardless). As was mentioned, SBM agrees good food is important for optimal health. I have friends who climb on this wagon and assure they are much better. I end used wondering how many hundred a month it takes to convince yourself of that. I also still see posts about their disease flares, sick days, etc., etc., in between visits to their naturopath, acupuncturist, massage therapist, and sharing of their unprocessed food/raw/veggie smoothies, etc.
One went to an unaccredited school, became a nutritionist, “cured” herself on a vegan smoothie diet. Her daughter got breast cancer. Mom knew just what to do. Mega alkaline, raw veggie juicing is the cure for everything!
Her daughter died. So she switched to whole foods with locally sourced grass fed beef and pasture-raised chicken and eggs. She still sells her nutritional consults to cure your diseases.
I feel so sad for her. I know she is a true believer, not someone just making money. I am sad for her clients, too, if they are led too far down her rabbit hole.
Oh how much I would love to have preview back.
These are in fact my initials. I sometimes go by them, mostly among a certain circle of friends from college. Somebody started calling me “JP” one day for whatever reason and it stuck.
RE: food woo: it is amazing how many completely different “alternative” diets are out there, each one claiming to be the one that cures what ails you. I had a certain vulnerability to some of it when I was pretty young, for whatever reason – social contagion, I suspect. I remember deciding to try that “Master Cleanse” thing during my first year of college, the one where you basically live on lemonade for a week. I started feeling really ill on about day three and threw in the towel. I remember people saying things like, “Oh, that was just the toxins coming out! You just have to get past the three day hump!” I’m pretty sure there was a more parsimonious explanation for it, like the fact that I had been living on lemonade for three days.
I would like to second Narad somewhere above about how grating the whole “bone broth” thing is. It’s f*cking stock. I guess somebody figured out that you can sell chicken stock for 8 dollars a jar if you give it a trendy name, even though you can go get a bowl of Pho, which is “bone broth” with stuff in it fog significantly less money.
I’m just waiting for a “bone broth” cleanse or something to start making the rounds.
Way to go Theo.Thanks for your posts and links.
One of the latest woo trends is fetishising *sauerkraut* for after all, it is fermented and just loves your microbiome.
( Although I can recall woo-meisters being afraid of “carcinogenic” pickled/ fermented foods -esp those the Japanese eat- years ago.
Yoghurt and kombucha were always considered *de rigueur* except that vegans chose soy yoghurt of course. Some alties recommended sauerkraut juice for ulcers though).
So TMs and woo-mavens trade recipes for fermented foods.
HOWEVER I don’t see much about breads and alcoholic products- aren’t they also magical ferments?
Denise — I’d gladly eat kimche on a regular basis if only the spousal unit would let me.
Yeah, you’re right, Anna. Posting unflattering pictures and saying ‘you look like this’ is the height of wit and a logical argument that simply cannot be refuted. If you’re freakin’ three years old, that is.
Proper Johnny
Accept no substitutes
There has been news lately about an actual link between high consumption of pickled/fermented foods – in the Korean diet, I believe, where this is the traditional method of preserving vegetables for the winter – and stomach and esophageal cancers. I am not giving up my (fermented) pickles and sauerkraut, though.
There are certainly some hippies out there, some of my friends included, who are into making homemade fermented products of all sorts – mead, sourdough bread, sauerkraut, pickled garlic, etc. My friend Andy recently had to give up making kimchi, though, because his housemate was complaining about the smell.
HOWEVER I don’t see much about breads and alcoholic products- aren’t they also magical ferments?
As m’father used to say of beer, “Fluessiges Brot!”
@ JP:
Well, hippies and woos can overlap. But adamant alties despise gluten and alcoholic beverages.
There is also the heritage foods movement which tends to develop in affluent areas outside large cities- the nouveau bohemian countryside- which attempts recreating ancient breads, cheeses etc. AND these people like wine, mead, beers, ales- some of them attended prestigious culinary schools. I seem to wind up in places like this.
Interestingly, someone I know has been frequenting Russian stores for jarred sauerkraut and (pickled?) salads also in jars.
Not the fellow who believes in Celtic sea salt. That’s another story.
My friend Andy recently had to give up making kimchi, though, because his housemate was complaining about the smell.
During the preparation, or after the consumption?
But adamant alties despise gluten and alcoholic beverages.
People who hate beer and pretzels are just sad excuses for human beings.
My mother recently took up vegetable gardening as a hobby, and started pickling the extra cucumbers and jalapeno peppers. I couldn’t even walk in the kitchen when she was making pickled peppers. She insists there are health benefits to eating pickles, but was kind of vague about what they were. They tasted wonderful, though, and it’s a good way to deal with extra vegetables.
Also, what is up with “Bone broth”? Seriously, people don’t know what soup stock is anymore? Maybe we are too reliant on pre-prepared foods.
@Proper Johnny- When a commenter acts like a spoiled child, perhaps it’s time to make him stand in the corner.
Russian sauerkraut is typically of the fermented, rather than vinegar-soaked, variety, and available at considerably cheaper prices than the stuff at the co-op or the shi-shi grocery stores.
When it comes to salads, it’s hard to say. “Salad” is a very broad term in Russian. What I’m imagining one might often come by in jarred form is what’s called “vinaigrette,” which is a salad of mainly chopped root vegetables, always including beets, in a sweetish vinegar dressing.
Back when I frequented MDC, I more than once saw comments from people who were freaked out that they had messed up their “bone broth” because it turned into Jell-O in the fridge.
These don’t even seem to be good stocks; I got the impression at the time that people cooked them until the bones frankly dissolved, which just makes for a gritty mess, and often don’t bother browning them.
You get exactly two runs with a quick necks-and-backs brown stock, and the second one is only for reducing to glace.
Ha. During the preparation. I think part of the offensiveness was due to the sheer amount of garlic that he was using, though in related news, I went through almost a whole clove of home-pickled garlic on Monday afternoon at a friend’s house and nobody even complained about my breath. Maybe they were just too nice.
^ Almost a whole head of garlic. I should get some sleep.
Narad: “Back when I frequented MDC, I more than once saw comments from people who were freaked out that they had messed up their “bone broth” because it turned into Jell-O in the fridge.” …. “You get exactly two runs with a quick necks-and-backs brown stock, and the second one is only for reducing to glace.”
The reason I started making my own stock over thirty years ago was to get decent glace de viande. The stuff they sell at upscale kitchen stores is a salty abomination.
My last batch of chicken stock was incredibly good. It helps that the garden herbs are in their springtime prime. Lots of fresh thyme, parsley, marjoram and bay laurel… with a touch of rosemary.
I forgot to say: “because it turned into Jell-O in the fridge.”
That is hilarious, and very silly.
You’re supposed to bury it in the ground.
This also reminds me of some of the sauerkraut hilarity that was on display back in the day at MDC. (I have my paternal grandmother’s cookbooks from the Old Country.)
Then again, I must confess to once naively trying to hang sausages that, out of laziness, I had formed in cheesecloth and painted with lard. This was likely a (merited) misreading of some part of Mastering the Art.
What really surprises me, though, is that there are no search results for ‘pistachio sausage’ + ‘wasps’. Until now, I suppose.
Lookee here, it’s two for one quack day! johnny’s favourite, Susan/Suzanne/Suellen Humphries makes an appearance, in a video series sure to make you chew the inside of your mouth until someone notices and says, “hey, stop chewing the inside of your mouth.”
http://kellybroganmd.com/article/natural-birth-breastfeeding-replaceable/
Brogan makes me ill. According to her, “birth is not a medical problem to be managed.” Until, of course, it is.
Yes Kelly, natural childbirth and breastfeeding are entirely replaceable. Next question, please.
That homebrew kombucha is more than happy to reach beer strength if handled with Goddess-love.
@ JP
Eh, don’t beat yourself over it. The basic premise of any diet regimen is correct: if left to our own devices, most of us will overindulge food, especially the fried and/or sugary and/or creamy sort.
So, out of concern, out of a sense of guilt, we are primed to be listening when someone is reminding us to eat a healthier regimen.
And actually, any diet regimen, as wacky as it could be, is likely to make you lose weight, if for no other reason that you are now watching what and how much you are eating.
Where if falls apart, inevitably, it’s in the long term. As Harriet Hall put it over at Science-Based Medicine blog, the main issue in health is individual compliance. If we were all perfect, with an iron discipline, we would all be slim and fit and muscular…
With really wacky diets, the fall is more likely to happen in the short term, as you experienced.
Don’t worry, I have much more “substantial” things to beat myself up over. I did, of course, lose some weight on the “Master Cleanse,” but I didn’t need to at the time and it wasn’t really why I was doing it.
I gather that this is hard to do during a Wisconsin winter.
@ Helianthus:
Well, what do you know, I’m perfect. I’ve always suspected as much** Merci.
You do hit upon the way woo-meisters manage to keep their marks coming back for more:
first, followers get results due to massive restrictions but then they fail. So their gurus can say that they’re JUST not trying hard enough or they’re not worthy enough. Usually these lunatics present their own success stories – displaying photos of themselves or showing OTHER happy customers- fit and perfect, enjoying life- which is contrasted by unattractive portraits of average folk- overweight, ill, old before their time BECAUSE they followed medical advice and watched television.
Unfortunately I hear often hateful speech directed at people who are heavier than what some orthorectic loon decides is desirable- not what SBM says is healthy. It is rather their own fixation.
I’ve heard 1700 calories per day for an active adult male, 60 grams of protein, below 10% body fat. ( PRN).
** I’m joking.
I’ve been trying to change my dietary habits, but my biggest issue isn’t lack of certain nutrients, it’s psychological. I deal with stress and pressure by snacking, and that has not helped my waistline in any way. I’ve been tracking my eating and my weight, and cutting back significantly, and that has helped my weight somewhat.
@ Gray Falcon:
It iS very difficult to lose or manage weight for MOST people- that’s why it’s a huge industry and very much prime territory for woo and fitness businesses.
I’ve found that having scheduled exercise 2 or 3 times a week is the foundation for me. I somewhat watch what I eat but do not follow any bizarre regimes like the idiocy I monitor.
I DO wonder how much genetics plays into the equation because- like my father- I’ve never been overweight- without much effort.
I chose the right father I suppose..
@THEO
Nice strawman you got there. What does that have to do with reality?
I’ve been trying to change my dietary habits, but my biggest issue isn’t lack of certain nutrients, it’s psychological.
Being able to eat anything and everything I wanted in my 20’s and 30’s hasn’t helped my current less than lean status (nothing to do with my metabolism and everything to do with being in a profession where everyone went out and ran six miles over lunch).
When diet is wrong medicine is of no use, When diet is correct medicine is of no need.
I made it easy for you to understand
THEO: We need evidence. It doesn’t get easier to understand than that.
That’s why they do it before the ground freezes in Korea. (It was the primary winter source of vitamin C, as I recall.) Good and ripe by the time you got to the end of it come spring.
Here Grey start here and see where it takes you dont trust me though. http://nutrigenomics.ucdavis.edu/?page=Home
And Justthestats. Specifically which part of the meme do you not find to be true?
THEO, they are selling a product. By your own standards, that means anything they say is inherently untrustworthy.
You’re supposed to bury it in the ground.
Any recipe which involves “bury in the ground”, we are in Icelandic cuisine territory, and I am noping out of there as fast as I can nope.
Which culture now extant do you believe comes closest to or has acheived eating a ‘correct’ diet, Theo?
When diet is correct medicine is of no need
Why do you sell supplements, then?
Vaccine Injury Stories: the Sacred Cows of the Internet?
GREY that is a university program they are not selling anything but that latest science based on the TRUTH.
JGC Its not about cultures its about individual discipline to eat correctly. Following a Paleo diet eliminating dairy and wheat gluten is a great starting point. Those foods cause inflammation in the body and create chronic disease states. Your medical doctor will not even consider this idea. If you are unable to identify a root cause of headaches for example likely caused by dairy or gluten what fucking good are you? Not much! What are you going to do prescribe medications or do surgery while the chronic disease is still festering in this persons body? of course you are! Thats what you were trained to do by your pharmaceutical overlords. You don’t know another way. However Dr. Brogan found another way and ran with it Why? Because she is curious unlike you.
Your nothing but pre-progammed robots downloaded with whatever continuing education pharma wants to train you in. You lack flexibility in your thinking, You rule out nutritional supplements as a solution. Everything is quackery unless you learned it in medical school. Your entire training is biased towards toxic chemicals. You don’t see food as medicine. You adhere to DOGMA allowing others to do your thinking for you. Thats fucking dangerous! #BOOM #KO
As I have stated before your training is great for trauma, bullet wounds, surgery and acute care. But an utter failure in treating chronic diseases.
The Paradigm is moving AWAY from your trusted dogma and training. You have been warned.
Check mate!
http://tinyurl.com/lmjm6e6
THEO- I got a look at that nutrigenomics site. Interesting, you’re right, they aren’t selling anything. They also didn’t say anything at all supporting your claims. There is nothing even remotely suggesting that proper nutrition can prevent all diseases. So in other words, you are either too stupid to read your sources, or a liar willing to twist people’s words to your advantage.
Now, tell me something THEO, now that we’ve established you’re either a) a fool, b) a liar, or most likely c) a foolish liar, why should we trust anything you say?
So many unsupported assertions, so little time
Nonsense—traditional cultural diets vary enough that if your premise is valid you should be able to point which come closest to approximating your postulated ‘correct diet” and which are least like it. Offer an example form each end of the spectrum, please.
Or admit you have no idea what this putative correct diet would even look like in the first place.
Citations needed: your evidence that consumption of dairy products and gluten (in anyone who does not actually have celiac disease) are inflammatory and “create chronic disease states’ would be what, exactly?
I’m quite sure he will, once you provide good evidence this idea is anything other than speculative I can show him/her. Can I expect some anytime soon?
But if one’s unable to identify a root cause on what rational basis should attribute the headaches to consumption of dairy or gluten rather than anything else at all (including, of course, insufficient consumption of dairy and gluten)?
What evidence demonstrates Dr. Brogan’s ‘other way’ provides better outcomes than standard of care science based medical interventions? Be specific.
Translation: Why won’t you listen to me, even though I have no evidence to offer in support of my claims?
Not at all: there are some indications for which nutritional supplementation has been shown to be efficacious—rickets, for example, or scurvy. If there’s actual evidence demonstrating supplementation is beneficial we’re more than happy to ‘rule it in’. So—got any?
Which chronic diseases has nutritional supplementation been shown to be successful at treating, theo? Be specific, and link to the evidence demonstrating it is actually beneficial at treating these chronic diseases>
Uhh—theo? You appear to have tipped over your own king.
Hey grey they are not going to come out and tell you they have to be cautious.
Oh JGC you are a hoot!
LMFAO
What evidence demonstrates Dr. Brogan’s ‘other way’ provides better outcomes than standard of care science based medical interventions? Be specific.
Start with this Doctor. or this Doctor
http://www.drfuhrman.com
dr perlmutter see his new book about the brain.
Omega 3 fatty acids are REQUIRED by the body we don’t get enough from our diet look what they can do…..
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25936773
Translation: Why won’t you listen to me, even though I have no evidence to offer in support of my claims?
Translation
Dogma is a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority (Pharmaceutical Co.’s) as incontrovertibly true. It serves as part of the primary basis of an ideology or belief system, and it cannot be changed or discarded without affecting the very system’s paradigm, or the ideology itself. You sir believe in Dogma!
Which chronic diseases has nutritional supplementation been shown to be successful at treating, theo? Be specific, and link to the evidence demonstrating it is actually beneficial at treating these chronic diseases>
Irritable Bowel, high blood pressure, Auto immune etc
Go to Pubmed and search out probiotics and IBS. Omega3 and Lupus or Vit D3 and immunity.
I am not here to do all the heavy lifting go research yourself and discover this Truth. Brogan did…or are you so rigid and so incapacitated by DOGMA you are paralyzed?
Very Likely
I know why too see below
“The Brainwashing of Medical Education
Yes, indeed, we are most certainly brainwashed by our medical education. There is a set of attitudes and behaviors that are expected of us while in training that become subconscious and automatic by the time we are board certified. These automatic behaviors set us up for physician burnout in private practice.
Here are the four flavors I routinely see in my over stressed physician clients.
NOTE: None of our instructors, professors or attendings has ever tried to “brainwash” you consciously and on purpose. The expectations and attitudes that create this subconscious programming are built into nearly every facet of our medical education as NORMAL and “the way things have always been done around here”. To most physicians in private practice the programming is invisible and unrecognized and the automatic behaviors it produces are dysfunctional and baffling. You will see in a second why this “brainwashing” virtually guarantees physician burnout in your 40’s and 50’s if it continues to sit in your blind spot.
Basic training in the military is 8 weeks. In that time they can condition an 18 year old to take a bullet on command. Medical education is a minimum of 7 years. (how long did it take you from your first day in medical school to your first day in private practice?) I believe there is no more thorough conditioning program on the planet than becoming a doctor. <—–ROBOT PROGRAMMING "
~the happy Md
THEO, we did not ask you about Omega-3 fatty acids. You made a very specific claim. Please provide evidence that claim is true.
Your medical doctor will not even consider this idea
I’m sure she would if there was evidence to substantiate it. Youtube videos and sales pitches, btw, don’t constitute evidence.
Theo, regarding Dr. Fuhrman, I found no evidence at the website you linked to indicating Dr. Brogan’s ‘other way’ provides better outcomes than standard of care science based medical interventions.
Did you perhaps copy/paste the wrong URL?
Re: omega 3 fatty acids, the article you linked to provides neither evidence we don’t get enough from our diets—in fact that author’s note explicitly that no dietary reference intake has been established.
It also offers no evidence that supplemental omega 3 is effective as a treatment for breast cancer. It suggests instead that it may reduce one’s risk of developing breast cancer, but does not make a particularly strong case– especially when the authors are seen to somehow interpret a study (PMID: 22194528) which concludes “Overall, there was no significant association between ω-3 PUFA [poly-unsaturated fatty acid] intake and breast cancer risk (P = 0.31)” as suggesting instead reduced risk of breast cancer in premenopausal women with higher intakes of omega-3 fatty acids from diet and supplements.
No, I do not: I go where the evidence leads, whether that would be my preferred course or not. Provide actual evidence that you’re correct, and I’ll gladly revise or abandon my position re: the benefits of nutritional supplementation. To date you’ve provided no such evidence whatsoever—in fact, given that you have attempted to support your claim by providing a URL to Fuhrman’s website it’s seems likely you have no real idea what form evidence supporting your claims must of necessity take.
Theo, surely you really it’s not our job to hunt for evidence that (if it did exist) would support claims you have made. Have you got any, or not?
Why then are you wasting everyone’s time by making extraordinary claims you lack either the willingness or ability to support?
As I’m not a physician, theo, clearly I’ve not been subjected to the ‘robotic programmed’ you believe occurs in medical schools.
THEO – do you, by chance, know of a diet that will prevent or cure rabies? Thanks in advance.
OK. It’s weaksauce.
THEO #1142 Absolutely agree (though I wouldn’t call it Paleo but close enough) Feel terrific at 72. Fortunately studied nutrition in my 20’s and this has made all the difference. Unfortunately many of my friends chose to continue their early eating patterns (when you can eat anything in your 20’s and 30’s) and are not in good health!
I now can’t tolerate dairy, wheat also will produce chronic sinus and breathing problems. If I waited for A PubMed study on this I would be miserable, unable to breathe, probably on an inhaler which I was prescribed before I gave up dairy which I love! It’s takes discipline and the willingness to try it as a preventive measure.
I was prescribed vitamins by my Ob-Gyn when pregnant.
Studied nutrition when I was pregnant and changed my college ways. (coffee and cigarettes, scotch and soda, and all nighters)
As long as we’re accepting anecdotes as evidence, my father smoked cigars and enjoyed a nightly brandy highball for most of his entire life, loved sweets and red meat, and took no exercise other than walking to and from work (despite the gangrene that took six of his toes in 1945. Before ken or Theo claims that was due to his diet, let me point out that a Teutonic gentleman pinched his jump boots and left him to freeze in a cellar).
He died at age 89 with all his own teeth and most of his hair. Granted, he had to use a wheelchair his last few years, but we blame the Wehrmacht.
I can’t recommend a diet of black pudding, beer and coffee, but it’s always worked for me.
@#1145 —
Vitalism is dogma, ffs.
OBVIOUSLY, eating a healthy diet is good for your health. Neither the government nor the medical profession is trying to keep that a secret. On the contrary. They teach it to small children in elementary school. They even draw pictures showing plates covered in vegetables and leaflet the country with them for the benefit of the reading challenged. You are living in a fantasy world.
@1151, #1152 —
Not so fast, Ms. Bleeding Heart.
Before we return to the fascinating litany of your many personal triumphs over routine, minor challenges, you owe me a reply.
JGC your making me work over here. The holistic/vitalism philosophy world has known this stuff for well over 20 years its understood.
Do you know why there isn’t an abundance amount of evidence? It’s because you cannot patent a nutritional supplement. They are all created differently by different companies slightly different formulations. If you cannot patent it you have no exclusivity. That a disincentive for investors.
However we do have research its ongoing and growing but no where near the amount of shiny turds the pharmaceutical industry puts out in its quest for world health dominance.
Your evidence
These results provide supporting evidence for the anti-inflammatory effects of DHA supplementation, and reveal previously unrecognized genes that are regulated by DHA and are associated with risk factors of cardiovascular diseases.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21775114
In this study, we concluded that probiotics confer beneficial effects for alleviation of IBS symptoms. Generally, use of different scales to analyze the mean differences of symptoms in various studies is the main limitation of all existing meta-analyses in IBS. Further well-designed clinical trials are still needed to confirm the effectiveness of probiotics on major IBS symptoms and patient quality of life.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4356930/
Theo: Which *specific* paleo diet should we follow?
The “Manage to kill a large mammal every-other week” diet?
The “Constantly hunting down tiny birds” diet?
The “Delicious grubs” diet?
The “gorge yourself on easy-to-collect oysters” diet?
These are all known paleolithic diets, which one is *right*?
#1153 shay
What is it you don’t understand? Your father got the luck of the genes like my grandfather who smoked!
If I go off my diet I get ill. I did during the holidays and wound up in the ER having difficulty breathing. If I go off my diet my LDL goes way up. I choose not to go off my diet thus avoiding using an inhaler and Lipitor.
I understand that anecdotes are not evidence. You don’t.
#1039 Ann
There are many people who don’t have health insurance.
Abilify costs $450/bottle – hardly within reach of people w/o health insurance.
The inhaler I was prescribed costs $100+ and wasn’t covered by my insurance. Lipitor costs over $300/bottle.
Drink your milkshakes and eat your white bread! I really don’t give a *uck!
THEO sez:
I would call your attention to a box-front you can find at your neighborhood pharmacy (at least, CVS and Walgreens carries it). It’s for a product named “PreserVision Eye Vitamin and Mineral Supplemenmt”. The front includes a standard Quack Miranda warning, and the legend “Patented Formula”. On the back is a standard-form “Supplement Facts” table. Inside the box is a leaflet containing the text “Patented—not available as a store brand.” The inner folder claims “US Patent 6,660,297”.
Thus, the product is a nutritional supplement and is covered by a US utility patent, with its attendant exclusivity.
The product is the subject of the AREDS 2 study. References:
AREDS2 Research Group. “Lutein/Zeaxanthin and Omega-3 Fatty Acids for Age-Related Macular Degeneration. The Age-Related Eye Disease Study 2 (AREDS2) Controlled Randomized Clinical Trial.” JAMA, published online May 5, 2013.
AREDS2 Research Group. “Lutein/Zeaxanthin for the Treatment of Age-Related Cataract.” JAMA Ophthalmology, published online May 5, 2013.
Chew et al. “Long-Term Effects of Vitamins C, E, Beta-Carotene and Zinc on Age-Related Macular Degeneration.” Ophthalmology, published online April 11, 2013.
In other words, your excuse does not hold water: you are lying, ignorant, or both. I’d go with door 3.
THEO: I spend eight hours a day working in front of a computer screen, dealing with code fixes, database errors, and several other things paleolithic man could never hope to understand. Why the **** would a paleolithic diet be appropriate for me?
Ken: Patent medicines of the 1800’s had numerous testimonials proclaiming their effectiveness. The primary ingredient of most patent medicines was alcohol. Testimonials alone are not sufficient evidence.
An no one is demanding that if you found a diet that controls symptoms reliability you must stop that right now.
The danger is trying to generalize from an anecdote (seems to work for me) to the entire population. Or even that it is working for you for some cause and effect way that isn’t person specific.
Somehow I got a conditioned response to raisins that was consistent but highly irrational based on everything else I didn’t react that way to. So some dietary reactions may not be about the food but how sick you got at one point when you ate that food because something else made you sick.
When I avoided all of the specific type of raisins that bothered me for an extended period of time to break the conditioned response I wouldn’t be upset if other people ate raisins or assume that if they weren’t on the avoid all raisin train they were only eating extremely unhealthy food no one would recommend.
@ ken:
Please don’t take this as an affront.
If I understand correctly, you may not be taking meds that were prescribed for you- Lipitor
If you do have a condition that warrants their usage – please re-consider. A few years ago, I knew a woman who ran a sports facility, when given an rx for a similar med, she chose instead to use Red Yeast Rice. She had a stroke and survived but had difficulties with speaking, needing therapy for a long time She has never fully recovered. Previously, she was an active person who worked and drove on her own. Her life is compromised now but fortunately she is married and has a daughter who lives nearby.
Think about it- if I am clear about your situation.
#1165 Denice Thank you for your thoughtfulness. I write too hastily. I was prescribed Lipitor before I went on a diet, even though I was not overweight. By diet I dropped my LDL to safe limits. My SBM internist approves.
#1164 I did not advocate my diet or generalize.
SBM recognizes milk as a common allergent.
ken:
They why bother bringing it up?
#1164 There is such a thing as a raisin allergy. Are you saying that you now can eat raisins because you no longer have a conditioned response?
#1167 GF My comment was directly addressed to THEO who mentioned dairy and wheat. It was not addressed to anyone else.
#1167 GF I also assume you are in good health so no need to change your diet.
I don’t eat them in great quantity by themselves but I now can eat standard issue raisins when an ingredient in things when I couldn’t when I regularly threw up every time I ate them.
It didn’t seem to be an allergy as I could eat all other dried fruit with similar additives and the grapes the raisins are made from.
@#1160 —
Yes. Well. A lot of people can’t afford to get CBT either. But you did, didn’t you?
Also:
WTF does that have to do with Kelly Brogan’s ostensibly virtuous refusal to prescribe it and drugs like it? Do you think she offers those “sophisticated specialty lab” tests that aren’t covered by insurance at no charge?
Moreover, Bausch & Lomb has been suing infringers for over a decade, including CVS recently for trying to make an end run.
There’s a brief discussion of patenting supplements (motivated by the B&L one) here. The author’s search criteria generate pretty noisy results, but there’s no real shortage of other examples, such as 8,865,767: h_ttp://goo.gl/0ok13Y
^ Meet the patent holder on that last item.
^^ Nothing says “competent mental health professional” like a testimonial page. With people endorsing your supplement.
Boca Raton, true to its history as always.
#1176 As far as I know she wouldn’t be licensed to practice psychotherapy in NY. She has no professional degree to warrant such a claim.
When the AMA goes after an MD with justified evidence, I will call them a quack.
#1173 Ann
I was lucky to get CBT years ago- my insurance covered it. Medicare is more restrictive and wouldn’t cover it now.
ken: you do realize, don’t you, that the AMA has absolutely NO governing power over MDs? That a huge number of MDs don’t even belong to the AMA (or any of the specialty groups like the AAP)? MD/DOs in the USA are governed only by their state licensing boards, who are often too understaffed and overwhelmed. Here in NJ, the Board results are public on the internet, and you can see from the investigation results often how much time and effort it takes just to CENSURE a physician, much less suspend or terminate his/her license to practice.
@#1179 —
Medicare covers CBT. But so what? Your objection was to the prescription of psychotropics, Where is your empathy for the suffering of those who benefit from them?
#1181 Ann
I have empathy for those who were wrongly precribed Abilify for depression and suffered side effects.
Here’s the quote-
“Many psychiatrists and scientists worry about this antipsychotic boom. They point out that there’s limited evidence of the drugs’ usefulness in treating depression over the long term, and that they have serious side effects, such as sedation, dramatic weight gain, and an increased risk of diabetes. In about one-quarter of cases, these drugs also cause akathisia, a pronounced feeling of restlessness described as making you want to jump out of your skin.“What’s happened recently is remarkably heavy marketing of antipsychotics,” Allen Frances, former chairman of the psychiatry department at Duke University School of Medicine, told BuzzFeed News. Doctors, he added, are prescribing antipsychotics for depression “too quickly, without clear indication, and under pressure from pharmaceutical companies.”
http://www.buzzfeed.com/catferguson/the-antipsychotic-boom?utm_term=.paLXk4oPZd#.ykyJaqG79
#1181 Ann –
My empathy is for those who were prescribed Abilify for depression and suffered side effects.
Quote from article-
“Many psychiatrists and scientists worry about this antipsychotic boom. They point out that there’s limited evidence of the drugs’ usefulness in treating depression over the long term, and that they have serious side effects, such as sedation, dramatic weight gain, and an increased risk of diabetes. In about one-quarter of cases, these drugs also cause akathisia, a pronounced feeling of restlessness described as making you want to jump out of your skin.“What’s happened recently is remarkably heavy marketing of antipsychotics,” Allen Frances, former chairman of the psychiatry department at Duke University School of Medicine, told BuzzFeed News. Doctors, he added, are prescribing antipsychotics for depression “too quickly, without clear indication, and under pressure from pharmaceutical companies.”
http://www.buzzfeed.com/catferguson/the-antipsychotic-boom?utm_term=.paLXk4oPZd#.ykyJaqG79
It’s not empathy if you reserve it for people who share your feelings,
Those drugs are quite awful in many ways. But they treat conditions that are very painful to have and very difficult to treat. And some people benefit from them.
You’re just adding to the stigmatization of the mentally ill by demonizing them. But that’s no surprise. You’ve had some run-ins with stigma-reinforcement before.
@Justthestats start with fruits veggies beans nuts and seeds and lean proteins and avoid dairy and wheat gluten. Go from there and then get a blood test done an IGG test to see if you have any food sensitivities and avoid those foods.
I stand corrected there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence to support nutritional supplements after you have been diagnosed with a disease
Good luck patenting Fish oil or Vitamin C
Re: the DHA study, it again suggests supplementation can reduce the risk of disease, not that supplementation is effectie at treating disease one acquired. That’s the claim you’ve been asked to support –care to try again?
This is just the beginning I am sure if I spent a full 8 hours I could amass significant data. Its all out there but your over lords the pharmaceutical industry censor it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25445629
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25909794
Why would one wish to patent fish oil or vitamin C, when clearly multi supplement companies are realizing sufficient profits by producing and selling them without holding exclusive patent rights?
Theo, doesn’t basic intellectual honesty require you have that significant data already ‘amassed’ before making the statement?
From your first link (bold for emphasis):
“Therefore, the supplementation of these types of lipids may represent additional option treatment for chronic systemic diseases, such as Systemic Lupus Erythematous and other rheumatic diseases. The role of these lipids has not been well established, yet.”
Re: the second link, there’s insufficient information in the abstract to assess the study’s outcome (for example, they state “ω-3 PUFAs resulted in a statistically significant decrease in aortic augmentation index” without providing p values, or describing the statistical analysis performed). If you can provide a full text copy of the translated a publication I’d be happy to discuss it (I trust you have it available, as I’m sure you would not have offered as evidence in support of your argument a study you have not read yourself.)
http://www.nutraceuticalsworld.com/contents/view_breaking-news/2011-10-26/revenue-rising-in-vitamin-supplement-manufacturing-market/
Wow, that non-patented stuff seems to sell pretty well…..
JGC why are you so skeptical about nutrition?
we already know a proper diet can reverse high blood pressure and cholesterol. Then why is it a stretch to think we cant harness that power and put it into a capsule or drink to help HEAL you? thats baffling to me. of course it works
THEO- What we’re skeptical of is your claim that it can cure all maladies. “Good brakes can prevent traffic accidents” is reasonable. “You can drink and drive all you want because if you have good enough brakes, you’ll never have an accident” is not.
I’m not skeptical about nutrition: I’m instead skeptical of your specific claims regarding nutrition (“When diet is correct medicine is of no need”).
Because to date you’ve offered no evidence ‘harnessing that power to help heal you” has been or may likely be achieved.
Then there should be a robust body of evidence demonstrating that it works, and that “when diet is correct medicine is of no need”. Let’s see it.
To some extent in some people some of the time. It can make a big difference but it is not always do the whole job all by itself.
Because sometimes the diets that change short-term disease markers are as much about what you aren’t eating as much of not just what one food or nutrients. Expecting to change nothing and a pill is going to give you the exact same effect as a diet overhaul….really? Especially since only a few of the things they put in pills are actually part of the diet that may reduce your blood pressure or cholesterol.
we already know a proper diet can reverse high blood pressure and cholesterol.
Tell that to Jim Fixx.
“Ester-C® is a patented immune health formula that stays in your immune system for 24 full hours, providing you with around-the-clock immune support you can depend on.”
But Theo can’t be arsed… never mind, here’s something insignificant instead.
It’s the worst kind of censorship, where information is suppressed by putting it out in public!
@ Theo
It was tried with red wine a decade ago*. Didn’t work much.
Also, for someone who earlier on the thread talked, not without some good reasons, about the superiority of a veggie-heavy diet over fast-food (organic kale vs hamburger and fries, it was), you are not very consistent.
I doubt that gulping pills made of crushed organic kale while still eating junk food is going to make the trick.
Although I would cynically admit that people will buy it nonetheless.
* and for us French people, let’s just say that rendering some good wine into a pill and claiming it’s the same is just blasphemy of the worse kind.
Then why is it a stretch to think we cant harness that power and put it into a capsule or drink to help HEAL you?
Then it would be a drug. Which Theo doesn’t like.
Ester-C patent 1 and patent 2.
You lose, Iliya, again, on the very same subject as comments 1162 and 1174. But you’re too damned stupid to quit while you’re behind.
Maybe you should change brands on whatever you’re gobbling for that purpose.
Resveratrol? A story unto itself.
1200 Indeed!
There is a supplement that really works. It helps to treat “the most common and widespread nutritional disorder in the world” (WHO). It was developed and tested by real (Canadian) scientists. It can be made from junk and it will make no one wealthy.
It’s called, in its current version, the Lucky Iron Fish (no links, easy to find).
via Mike the Mad Biologist
Resveratrol, occasionally pronounced as ‘reservatrol’ ( yes, seriously/ prn) is still being hawked as the be-all and end-all or suchlike.
Of course if you drink wine for it, the deadly alcohol cancels out its life enhancing effects. Or so they tell me.
One might recall that the mere flavor of coffee “antidotes” homeopathics.
Narad, that’s hilarious!
So the coffee ice cream I just ate cancelled out all the qi enhancement achieved by the green tea I let steep until it’s
somewhat thick.
But woo estimates, I should be dead.
According to Null, each drink causes the loss of “one million brain cells” ( sometimes it’s liver cells or both) which obviously explains his astonishing brilliance and our fellow/ sister minions’ fabled cognitive inadequacies**.
I’ve even heard that Orac has been known to have a few.
** family characteristic we enjoy saying the exact opposite of what we mean
That should be BY
Almost, but not totally, unrelated –
http://xkcd.com/1526/
Proper Johnny
Accept no substitutes
Hairy Doctor It’s the worst kind of censorship, where information is suppressed by putting it out in public! MDs have authority in the view of many people. What they say is Gospel . If your Doctor tells you supplements are a waste of money and it doesn’t work it effects public opinion. Clearly all of yours. Think about the implications of nutritional supplements working? Which they do. It would destroy billions in revenue, turn upside down the entire medical establishment. Indict decades worth of pharmaceutical training. Its a major threat so of course doctors who promote supplements are quacks. Of course anyone who promotes this is a loon. It baffles me how blind you all are. This movement is happening grass roots we are not waiting for authority to tell us. Thats for the last hold out of deniers to wait for.
Furthermore you rarely ever hear a great story about the benefits of nutritional supplements or the latest research about them on the evening news. Its all Pharmaceuticals. all the time. They spend huge money on advertising so why would the evening news contradict their clients? they wouldn’t. So just face it you are victims of the pharmaceutical industry. You are relics of the past that still think nutritional supplements have no science supporting them.
My claim is that diet lifestyle and optimal nutrition can reverse a lot of health problems. not just pills
http://terrywahls.com/about-the-wahls-
protocol
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17875549
.drperlmutter.
Be curious and maybe you will find the truth its out there but you must seek it. It will not be served to you in a soundbite on CNN.
THEO- You don’t seek the truth. You just listen to soundbites. If you spent five minutes seeking the truth you’d know doctors do talk about nutrition.
I guess THEO missed the part where the Supplement Industry is a 30+ Billion dollar a year profit-driven powerhouse with the ability to bend the US Government to its will (for example, the orchestrated defeat of every attempt at decent regulation over the past 30 years).
THEO, your original claim was that nutrition was a panacea, a cure for all illnesses. Native Americans had far healthier diets than their European counterparts. That didn’t save them from smallpox or measles, which cut them down by the million. I read of one case where a person with measles entered an Inuit village. Of the 99 inhabitants of the village, only one survived.
A healthy diet is no guarantee against dying from infection.
Or our ancestors, from Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greece, Rome, China, etc. etc. etc. who ate 100% organic foods, yet died in droves from Epidemics, had infant mortality rates of 50% or more, and barely lived more than 30 – 40 years, if they survived childhood.
“Furthermore you rarely ever hear a great story about the benefits of nutritional supplements or the latest research about them on the evening news”
Do I really have to point out the obvious here?
And tyouevidence that tdo in fact work would be…what
Theo, your evidence that they do indeed work as you claim (“When diet is correct medicine is of no need”) would be what, exactly?
Be specific.
C’mon—you’ve had more than eight hours to ‘amass significant data”.
Let’s be serious:
even during the darkest days of the Great Recession ( c. 2008-2010+), a quick internet search illustrated that people in North America and Western Europe were still spending billions** on supplements and associated products. During that same period of time, so-called healthy food supermarkets grew by leaps and bounds while more recently, healthier fast food establishments have increased tremendously ( you know the names of these companies) Obviously people value these options. Did they just suddenly decide to eat in a more healthy fashion?
Am I to assume that a news blackout about nutrition kept those poor struggling souls, hopelessly blinded by the agenda of the corporatocray, in the dark or, that perhaps the media might even be complicit in helping push food fads and nutrition myths in order to pad their own ratings?
** IIRC, slightly up in the US and slightly down in the UK –
that should be CORPORATOCRACY
Yes, it is.
And as the above shows, it’s a very popular claim, your intimations that its truth is being suppressed notwithstanding.
The question is: On what evidence do you base it?
OK. That study doesn’t show diet and lifestyle reversing a lot of health problems.
There’s evidence suggesting that Omega-3 fatty acids have a modest anti-inflammatory effect. But that’s not what you’re claiming.
Again, stipulated that it’s a very popular claim. People can make money off of it, even. Good money. Perlmutter is such a person. But he’s a claim-maker, not a claim-prover.
And the question is: On what evidence is the claim based?
Everybody on the damn thread who’s asked you for specifics is doing exactly that.
That’s good, because I don’t watch TV barely at all.
@Lawrence
(for example, the orchestrated defeat of every attempt at decent regulation over the past 30 years).
They don’t need to be regulated they are SAFE. unlike the potions with side effects the pharmaceutical industry develops.
“I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, and again. There’s no free lunch with pharmaceuticals. We must disabuse ourselves of the notion that we can yank only one thread out of the spider web. When you pull it, the whole thing moves.
When you expose your body to pharmaceutical grade chemical influence, it is forced to adjust.” Dr Brogan MD
@ JGC is this the kind of evidence you cite and hold up as truth? your truth is based on profit motive .
Peter C Gøtzsche
Psychiatric drugs are responsible for the deaths of more than half a million people aged 65 and older each year in the Western world, as I show below.1 Their benefits would need to be colossal to justify this, but they are minimal.1 2
http://www.bmj.com/content/350/bmj.h2435
@Grey I live the truth.
@Denice the reason its growing is because it WORKS and its spreading word of mouth. Now if there was fair and balanced coverage of nutrition on the evening news and it was supported by your physician it would EXPLODE the only thing keeping a lid on it is the pharmaceutical industry Corporatacracy <——FACT
Terry wahls story should be on the evening news. What harm is going to come from flowing her diet? NOTHING
Not only does the PALEO diet help with MS its heals numerous other diseases utilized by Dr Mark Hyman. Countless testimonies of people being healed by food. Thats Evidence!
Ann
it’s a very popular claim, your intimations that its truth is being suppressed notwithstanding.
The question is: On what evidence do you base it?
Watch the evening news and see for yourself. Ask your doctor and see for yourself. Survey your friends and see for yourself
“I ate breakfast last week with the president of a network news division and he told me that during non-election years, 70% of the advertising revenues for his news division come from pharmaceutical ads. And if you go on TV any night and watch the network news, you’ll see they become just a vehicle for selling pharmaceuticals. He also told me that he would fire a host who brought onto his station a guest who lost him a pharmaceutical account.” ~Kennedy
Sure, it restores all your HP and makes you temporarily invincible, but it also makes you GLOW BLUE for like five minutes.
@THEO- You don’t “live the truth”. You just swallow every single lie you hear without a single thought.
THEO, although I am definitely not Glenn Greenwald, ferreting out closely-guarded secrets, for some ungodly reason, I manage to dig up diverse nutritional claims on a daily basis and, in fact, I even discuss them and tell people where to access them in their original forms-
mostly for sport.
If this information is being actively suppressed by a grand coalition of government, corporations and the media, why am I, poor simple creature that I be, able to find a never ending supply of stories about natural health, phyto-nutritents, herbs, alternative treatments, brave maverick doctors, warrior mothers, energy medicine, soul psychology and whatnot?
I mean it’s EASY.
THEO:
Actually, no it isn’t. A testimonial, assuming it’s genuine and not made up by the people trying to sell you something, is the lowest form of evidence. All it is is someone’s subjective opinion.
THEO,
We don’t know if supplements are safe because they haven’t been put through the same rigorous testing that pharma drugs have been. When they are tested, we often find they are not safe at all, for example, supplemental calcium tablets that increase the risk of a heart attack by 30%, in the same ball park as Vioxx’s CV risk.
That’s a curious turn of phrase – “pharmaceutical grade” is a measure of purity, not strength. Brogan links to a paper reviewing the carcinogenicity of various psychiatric drugs that concludes that most of them are carcinogens. However, a closer look reveals that this is based on animal studies using huge doses, and evidence for carcinogenesis in humans is sparse at best. In some cases, fluoxetine for example, these drugs appear to show promise against cancer.
Here’s a more balanced look at Gøtzsche’s claims, which many disagree with. There may be some grounds for arguing that psychiatric drugs are overprescribed, but I suspect it’s another case of younger people not remembering the days before we had effective treatments. How bad could it have been before we had effective antidepressants and antipsychotics? [/sarcasm]
No, you have simply been taken in by a slick and clever advertising campaign that cynically exploits your fear of illness and death.
THEO,
Looking at this study it seems that in the US the use of “nonvitamin, nonmineral dietary supplements” fell from 18.9% in 2002 to 17.7% in 2012. Also:
That’s hardly a sign that the dams are bursting, as I have heard people claiming for the past 30 years or more. Fewer than 2% of people using pre or probiotics, despite them being advertised endlessly everywhere? The miracle cure for arthritis (glucosamine and chondroitin)falling out of favor? Fewer people using echincaea? Why are people losing faith in these miracles? Could it be that they don’t work?
Why do you think the drug companies want to stop people buying supplements when they are often the ones manufacturing them? In 2007 “83 million adults spent $33.9 billion out-of-pocket on CAM”. Why would the drug companies marketing supplements be any more trustworthy than those marketing drugs? Look at Roche’s malfeasance in the 70s illegally inflating vitamin prices. If you have little faith in pharma drugs you should have zero faith in supplements.
THEO:
Now that you’ve had time to think about the fact that supplements can be patented, what do you think about the fact that they typically aren’t and they are typically not that well studied?
In other words “I got nothing–maybe you can find some where I’ve failed.”
Watch the evening news and see for yourself.
Wait…I thought there were no news stories about supplements because the media is in the pocket of Big Pharma.
shay,
It’ll be on the news just after the item on those FEMA camps that the UN built. You know, the ones they have been about to herd the US public into for the past few decades. That’ll be followed by the announcement that Bush and Blair are being impeached for war crimes.
Fine: Think of it like smoking or not-smoking.
Nobody cares if you personally choose to smoke. You can expose yourself to all the risks you like.
You don’t get to blow smoke in my face though – that’s forcing the risks of your activities on me. Second hand smoke is a thing.
And you shouldn’t be smoking in schools, in lung cancer wards, etc. If you do, there will be consequences and people are right to get mad at you