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On vaccines and autism, child pornography, and seeing “bullies” everywhere

Bullying. You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Yes, I do so love to co-opt that famous line from The Princess Bride for my own nefarious purposes, but it’s so perfect for this particular topic, which comes up every so often when I’m writing about the pseudoscience behind the antivaccine movement. It usually takes the form of an emotional screed by some antivaccine parent or other complaining about how she’s being “bullied” by us nasty, evil, insensitive pro-vaccine, well, bullies. (They frequently repeat the word many times throughout the course of their little rants.) A newspaper prints a pro-vaccine article critical of antivaccine pseudoscience? It’s bullying. What about if a friend questions her antivaccine views? It’s bullying. How about if her school or daycare requires her child to be up to date on her vaccines before attending. Obviously it’s bullying. And heaven help any pediatrician who who tries to persuade her that her vaccine pseudoscience is pseudoscience and that she should vaccinated. Obviously he (and it’s almost always a he in these stories) is nothing but a big fat medical bully.

You get the idea. We’ve seen these sorts of rants from people like Katie Tietje, Cathy Jameson, and countless other antivaccinationists that I haven’t discussed. Just before Thanksgiving, I saw one by another of the merry band of angry antivaccine warriors over at that wretched hive of scum and quackery, Age of Autism. It’s by someone whom I don’t recall having heard of before, Dara Berger, and is entitled, unironically, Pro-Vaxxers Are America’s Acceptable Bullies.

Because I had never heard of Dara Berger before, I did a quick Google search to see what her connection is with the antivaccine movement (other than, apparently, blogging for Age of Autism). I quickly learned that she is a Board Member and Co-Chair of the Programming Committee for the National Autism Association NY Metro Chapter and is on the Advisory Board of a documentary being made called Documenting Hope that will “document” recovery from autism and other chronic conditions. Looking at the medical advisory committee, which includes Dr. Martha Herbert, Dr. Jay Gordon, Dr. Mark Hyman, Dr. Frank Lipman, an acupuncturist, and a whole lot of other woo, I don’t have high hopes that his movie will be particularly science-based…obviously. After all, here we have a woman involved with an organization that believes vaccines cause autism, plus several others who have aligned themselves with the antivaccine movement, one of whom (Dr. Hyman) even co-authored a recent antivaccine screed with Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. himself! Then there’s the National Autism Association, which until recently listed vaccinations as a cause of autism on its website.

Whatever her background, Berger is nothing if not melodramatic (not to mention grandiose). Note her conclusion after setting it up with a description of the problem of bullying in school:

Everyday we hear horrible stories about children being bullied in school. Some refer to it as an epidemic. The tactics are so much worse than when I grew up in the 70’s. You could not get an entire school to gang up on someone’s Facebook page or send a compromised picture or video of that person and have it go viral. You pretty much had only a few choices to hurt them. Whisper rumors about them to other people, which let’s face it takes time. One popular thing was to scribble something mean about them on the bathroom wall. Although you had to hope that people used the stall and actually noticed the writing.

Bullying is a horrible thing to live through especially when it involves a child. It can leave lasting physical and emotional scars. Children have even lost their lives to bullying as some get pushed over the edge and commit suicide. We here these stories everyday. Luckily there is more awareness and parents have some recourse. They can sue the school or do something more drastic like move or change schools to protect their child.

But what happens when an entire country is bullying individuals? I find that this is the case for Vaccine Bullying.

That’s right. It’s not just doctors. It’s not just pro-vaccine friends and nasty skeptics like myself. It’s the entire damned United States of America bullying her! One can’t help but wonder: What is the US doing to bully the brave Ms. Berger? Has it started a whisper campaign about her? Has it ganged up on her Facebook page? Has it scribbled mean things about her on the bathroom wall? Inquiring minds want to know!

Unfortunately, Ms. Berger is all too happy to explain. To her The Vaccine Bully is comprised of our entire government because the government doesn’t accept that “vaccines are hurting adults and children even though they secretly pay out billions of dollars in their not well disclosed Vaccine Court.” This struck me as a strange assertion. The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program has a prominent, easy-to-find website, complete with lots of information, instructions on how to file a claim, and, of course, data and statistics easily accessible to anyone with a computer or smartphone. The latest statistics were even updated in October. I know, I know, just because there’s a website doesn’t mean that people know about the Vaccine Court, but Ms. Berger is clearly trying to insinuate that the government is trying to hide the existence of the court while referring to the government “secretly” paying out billions of dollars. It’s not much of a secret (at least not to me and most reasonable people) if figures as recent as last month are easily discoverable on the web on an official government website.

It’s not just the government, though. Oh, no. It’s those damned pediatricians. Ms. Berger tells a tale of woe about an encounter with a pediatrician:

I went to a new doctor on West 79th street. He was a highly recommended pediatrician. During the visit, I told him that I only wanted to do the Polio vaccine since I heard it was one of the more benign ones and that I was worried about giving vaccines to my 3 month old baby. He started to raise his voice and said that I need to give a more useful one like the DTaP. I said that I didn’t want to. He proceeded to speak much louder and told me “I will not stand by and watch you kill your baby”. He actually said these words to me! I left immediately as tears fired down my face. I marched right up to the receptionist and said “don’t even think of submitting this visit to my insurance, since this was not a proper doctors visit and I now have to go see another doctor”. Then I continued “tell him I will report the visit as fraud if he tries to get paid”. She looked at me shocked and kind of mumbled okay. I checked every explanation of benefits for the next 6 months. He never submitted it. I felt some vindication in my small way that I stood up to him and did not pay him for his lousy behavior.

My guess is that this is a rather—shall we say?—selective retelling of the tale. If the doctor truly behaved as described, that’s unacceptable, but I rather suspect that Ms. Berger is leaving some things out. For one thing, a pediatrician trying to maintain a practice on the Upper West Side is not likely to start yelling at a patient’s mother so easily. I know doctors who practice in New York City. It’s very, very competitive, and referral patterns are pretty tight and inflexible. A pediatrician who yelled at a patient’s mother like this would risk seeing his referrals and recommendations drying up. This would be doubly true for an affluent Manhattan neighborhood like the Upper West Side. Reading between the lines, having heard many similar stories from antivaccine activists like Ms. Berger, my guess is that Ms. Berger was a particularly annoying antivaccine parent and the pediatrician just got fed up. It’s understandable. I don’t know if I could keep my cool if I were a pediatrician facing my fourth or fifth parent like Ms. Berger in a day, which is why it’s a good thing I didn’t become a pediatrician.

Let’s accept that if the pediatrician did indeed yell at her (although from the story it sounds more likely that he probably raised his voice in exasperation) it was a bad thing. However, it’s not “bullying” to try to persuade a parent to vaccinate her child. Vaccination is standard of care medical practice, and parents who don’t vaccinate their children put not only their children in danger, but the children of others. A pediatrician who does not try to persuade parents to vaccinate is, in my not-so-humble opinion, committing at best medical negligence and at worst malpractice. Definitely, he’s failing to live up to the standards of his profession.

Ms. Berger also characterizes being required by school administrators to have her children vaccinated before they can attend school to be “bullying.” Of course, school vaccine mandates are the law, and school administrators are simply following the law by requiring proof of vaccination before letting children into school. By Ms. Berger’s standards, any government official or police officer who enforces the law is being a “bully.” That cop who pulled you over for going 20 MPH over the speed limit and wrote you a fat ticket? Definitely a bully! Shouldn’t you be allowed to drive as fast as you want? What about that parking officer who saw that your meter expired a half hour ago and wrote you a ticket? Super bully! Shouldn’t we be able to park wherever we want and for however long we need to for free?

So fragile is Ms. Berger that to her any questioning of her antivaccine views or story is “bullying.” She relates a tale of how at dinner a cousin had the temerity to question her claim that vaccines caused her child to have a stroke, pointing out, quite reasonably, that “you can’t be sure it was the vaccine.” This led the fragile Ms. Berger to scream back at her “YES! I am sure” and ignore her the rest of the meal, concluding:

I felt very angry how she could even think to question me not once, but three times. If my son had broken his leg, she would never have asked me how I could be sure. It is her own brainwashed views on vaccines that caused her to try to bully me at a dinner party. It was both inappropriate and inexcusable. I have decided to forgive her ignorance for my own peace and sanity. It’s just incredible how pervasive vaccine bullying can be.

I don’t consider questioning a claim that vaccines caused strokes to be “bullying,” given that there is no good scientific evidence that vaccines do, in fact, cause strokes. That was a face-to-face encounter, though. Ms. Berger is even more fragile than I’ve shown thus far, as she concludes with an example of horrific online bullying that is terrifying to behold:

I recently had someone send me a link to a book called “Neurotribes” which is about how autism has always been around and it’s just better diagnosis. I haven’t read the book but watched three minutes of the author speak. I immediately closed the link and wrote my “friend” that I find the link upsetting. I said my son was vaccine injured like many children with Autism. The authors’s book undermines what has happened to so many children like my son”. This person ignored my comment. I was angry that he would not even acknowledge that the link upset me. I went at him again the next day. I explained further that “I live in a world everyday that pretends what happened to my son did not happen. I continued “when we were growing up there were not all these kids that could not walk and talk”. He again ignored my message. I felt silently bullied. So I pressed on with my third and final message the following day. Here is what I wrote verbatim: “that link was more upsetting than child porn would be to me. Your insensitivity explains why you are still alone. Most people just apologize when they realize they have upset someone even if it’s unintentional”. He finally said that he was sorry. I probably have not changed his views, but I believe he might think twice the next time he talks about vaccines and autism with a parent who has a vaccine injured child. And if he upsets them, maybe it won’t take 3 days to apologize.

Yes, you heard it. A friend sent Ms. Berger a link to a book he thought she might like. What was his reward for something he probably did out of kindness? Ms. Berger totally flipped out. So, as many people would do, he simply went quiet, no doubt hoping not to escalate the situation. Finally, after three angry e-mail responses from Ms. Berger, he appears to have apologized, most likely to get this ranting woman off his back. I might have done the same thing, although, to be honest, were it me I’d probably have issued a notpology along the lines of, “I’m sorry you’re angry because of this.” If Ms. Berger wonders why autism antivaccine activists are so commonly viewed as a bunch of ranting loons, perhaps she should look at her own behavior in response to an innocent, well-intentioned e-mail from a friend.

To say Ms. Barger’s response was disproportionate to the perceived offense would be an understatement. Think about it. She actually said that receiving a link to a book by Steve Silberman about how autism has always been with us was more upsetting to her than child porn! Let me repeat that to emphasize the lack of proportionality: A book on autism—no, a mere web link to a book on autism—that doesn’t support the idea that vaccines cause autism upset Ms. Barger more than viewing child pornography would! That’s right. Ms. Barger is seriously equating the level of offense caused by questioning whether we really are in the midst of an “autism epidemic,” a key cornerstone of the antivaccine faith (because if autism prevalence only appears to be skyrocketing because of better diagnosis, more intense screening, and diagnostic substitution then vaccines couldn’t possibly be causing autism), with child pornography.

The mind boggles.

So what do we do about this fantastical problem of Vaccine Bullying (which, I note, Ms. Berger always capitalizes)? This, apparently:

So what do we do about the problem of Vaccine Bullying. I suggest always speaking up to a bully as long as it does not infringe upon you or your child’s safety. We could write more articles on the subject to educate people. There could be a task force created to counsel those being bullied. Most of all we can stand together and support one another for a cause that affects the entire community. You would think that the world would feel some empathy for parents who have a child with vaccine induced Autism, but instead we are persecuted for standing up and warning others.

May I suggest not badgering a friend who did nothing more than innocently recommend a book to her with three ranty e-mails demanding an apology? No? Oh, well…

Heather Barajas comparing her plight to that of Jews during Nazi Germany. This is also not what is going on when antivaccine activists are criticized for their antivaccine beliefs.
Heather Barajas comparing her plight to that of Jews during Nazi Germany. This is also not what is going on when antivaccine activists are criticized for their antivaccine beliefs.

Antivaccinationists love to paint themselves as being “persecuted” and “bullied” for their beliefs. Frequently they take this persecution complex to ridiculous extremes, such as during the debate over the passage of the new California law SB 277, which will eliminate nonmedical vaccine exemptions beginning in 2016, when antivaccine activists routinely likened the law to fascism and themselves to Jews in Germany during the Nazi era, complete with offensive co-optation of the yellow Star of David badges that the Nazis forced Jews to wear. (Even Dr. Bob Sears couldn’t resist using such imagery.) Co-opting Holocaust imagery is not a new thing, either. Meanwhile, at AoA, Ms. Berger’s co-blogger, Kent Heckenlively, has been known to liken his struggle to that of Aragorn against the dark lord Sauron in J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings.

I suppose I should be grateful that Ms. Berger confined her rhetoric to just being bullied.

Aragorn and his outnumbered armies face the assembled hordes of the dark lord Sauron as the Black Gate to Mordor opens. This is also not what is happening when antivaccinationists face criticism for their views.
Aragorn and his outnumbered armies face the assembled hordes of the dark lord Sauron as the Black Gate of Mordor opens. This is also not what is happening when antivaccinationists face criticism for their views.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

772 replies on “On vaccines and autism, child pornography, and seeing “bullies” everywhere”

It’s funny- it sounds to me that she was the one doing the bullying of the friend who sent her the link to the book.

My personal favorite is when someone comes onto MY blog because of a post that I’ve written and says that I’m a bully for my views. It’s my blog! No one is forcing you to read it!

Until we have a clear idea as to what autism is and how and why it occurs we are not going to convince these people and I doubt we will then. Particularly in those children who do seem to regress after early development and those with other co morbid conditions.
I wish I had a fiver for every time I have explained that as autism cannot reliably be diagnosed much before the age of two it is impossible to know if a child who has had an adverse reaction to a vaccine was autistic before the vaciine was administered. Antivaxers ‘know’ otherwise.
I get told that I’m only a mother not a doctor or a scientist so what do I know!
‘Umm! ‘Cos my opinion is supported by scientific evidence’
At which point I may as well save my breath because apparently all my evidence is tainted and I’m a pharma shill.
Our local charlatan and antivaxer thinks mothers like me are neurotic and don’t want to accept that our children are damaged and could be cured becuse being ‘autism mums makes us feel special – oh the irony!

Interestingly enough, they don’t want to listen to doctors, scientists and researchers either…..

Dara Berger = Professional Victim

I know doctors who practice in New York City. It’s very, very competitive, and referral patterns are pretty tight and inflexible.

This goes a long way towards explaining Kelly Brogan.

@#2 There is, without question, a lot more we need to learn to understand autism but it is certainly the case that we know an awful lot about 1) what autism is as it translates into a disorder; and, 2) variables related to etiology. None of this knowledge has changed the attitude of anti-vaxers and I doubt the further accumulation of evidence will either. Sad but likely true.

“that link was more upsetting than child porn would be to me.”

Well, there you have it. In her mind, telling the story of how autistics have always been part of our society but have been shunned and shoved away in dark places is “more upsetting than child porn” to her. But it’s not that autistics have been treated that way, no. What is “more upsetting than child porn” to her is that Steve Silberman didn’t repeat the lie that vaccines cause autism. That is the reality this woman — and many others who write for and read AoA — live in, where the truth is an anathema to them. Simply pointing out to them that the sky is blue is bullying, yet they do nothing for autistics who are actually being bullied into those dark places. They even whitewash the murder of autistic children, because murder is more acceptable than bullying, apparently.

This woman’s behavior, even as self-reported, makes it sound as if she’s really unbalanced.

Welcome to ScienceBlogs, the Vaccine/Global Warming website.

Is there a vaccine to prevent CAGW skepticism?
If so, I must not have gotten the shot.

See, you’re not a skeptic. Skeptics can be persuaded by good evidence. You are what is sometimes called a pseudo-skeptic, one who adopts the rhetoric of skepticism to provide cover for a completely dug-in ideological position.

The other word for this is “denier”. The standard rhetorical technique for defending against this is to vigorously clutch one’s pearls and assert that the word is inextricably linked to Holocaust denial, and how dare you accuse me of that!!! Well, no one’s accusing you of that. It’s an accurate description of the pseudo-skeptic position, because at this point, the evidence that global warming is happening, is caused mostly or wholly by humans, and is likely to be very disruptions is conclusive.

I don’t miss these types one bit, you know, as a pediatric “bully” and all. Though, once in a blue moon, I’ll still get an AV parent who apparently never checked out my vaccine policy online or read it while registering in the waiting room. Does a part of me feel bad about asking them to go elsewhere for care? Yes. But if you aren’t going to vaccinate then you are a risk to my newborns immunocompromised patients. If that makes me a bully, well bully for me.

Also, what is it with these AVers and their glasses of wine in hand whilst “researching” on the computer. Berger is another of these types –see her 11/20/15 AoA column where she just “knows” it’s the vaccines that did it). Maybe if they’d all back off on the wine, their brains might defog. No, probably not. But I’m sure the etoh is fueling some of their screed, as it’s a pattern seen in the TMR crowd as well.

“I felt silently bullied.” Well, at least she isn’t flying planes into skyscrapers.

This woman’s behavior, even as self-reported, makes it sound as if she’s really unbalanced.

Yes. One assumes that whenever a person writes something about herself that she unconsciously tries to present herself in the best possible light. We all tend to do that, myself included, which is why it takes a conscious effort to try to be more objective when discussing our own behavior. After all, it’s human nature to want to present oneself as favorably as possible. So, even assuming that Ms. Barger is trying to present herself in as favorable light as possible (which is likely), her description of her own behavior, particularly that last part where she went absolutely ballistic over a friend innocently sending her a link to a book he thought she might be interested in, to that point that she badgered him with three ranty e-mails, comes across as unhinged and unreasonable.

Somehow the bit about her being more upset by that link to a book than she would have been by child pornography blew right past me when I wrote this, even though it’s very important. So I just added a bit of text and changed the title of the post to emphasize that part a bit more, because it is important. Someone who is more upset by seeing a link to a book that refutes her views about vaccines and autism than she would be by child pornography is not someone who can be reasoned with.

I had a friend like this, once. She wasn’t terribly wooish, that I know of, but she was terribly, terribly invested in the idea that if ever she felt the slightest bit unhappy or uncomfortable, for any reason, it was because someone else was being a terrible person. It went so far that she accused me of being a bully and a horrible friend for the grave offence of having answered the phone when someone she was arguing with called me.

And here is the thing… so thoroughly had she convinced herself that she was surrounded by bullies and mean girls, that she basically gave herself cover to be as mean as she wanted to anyone, at any time. Calling her out on her own bad behaviour was seen as the ultimate in bullying.

I never did figure out how to get through to her, and some days, I still feel like it’s a shame. A few people I know still cross paths with her from time to time, and it sounds like she’s still a very unhappy person.

I see the same sort of personality problem in a lot of these AV “bullying” rants, and this example was a striking one. She sounds like she’s clinging desperately to the need to believe that any unhappiness she might feel, whether it’s something big (like adjusting to having a child with a disability) or something small (like someone questioning a single one of her assertions), is someone else’s fault. And not someone else’s fault through a simple well-intentioned misunderstanding, but rather deliberate cruelty or malfeasance.

It’s a lousy way to live.

This is the exact same attitude that leads anti-vaxers to invade pro-vax websites & complain about all the pro-vax “trolls.”

As is one could “troll” one’s own website.

“She relates a tale of how at dinner a cousin had the temerity to question her claim that vaccines caused her child to have a stroke, pointing out, quite reasonably, that “you can’t be sure it was the vaccine.” This led the fragile Ms. Berger to scream back at her “YES! I am sure”…

“The authors’s book undermines what has happened to so many children like my son. This person ignored my comment. I was angry that he would not even acknowledge that the link upset me. I went at him again the next day.”

Ms. Berger sounds like an awful bully, what with all the anger, screaming and berating.

@ Chris Hickie:

“Also, what is it about these AVers and their glasses of wine in hand whilst ‘researching’…” ?

Oh, I know. I’ll venture that it’s a self-soothing mechanism/ affiliation-seeking action/ mind-clouding technique that they use frequently rather than facing reality.

I truly believe that some of these women DO have a hard time taking care of a special needs child and in addition, they are disappointed in their lot- they thought that they’d be in a ‘different place’ when their children were aged 10 or 15. They may become isolated from other parents ( of NT kids who live nearby) and family who don’t understand. So I do understand their predicament.

Thus they seek out comfort in mind-altering substances ( not that there’s anything wrong with that) and mind-numbing conversations amongst their like-minded computer friends who reward their pseudo-science by agreeing and congratulating them on their brilliance. Then they write the whole mess up and post it on AoA or TMR or- an entirely new option- NARRATE their tales on TMR TV! That’s the new thing.

As I always say, these websites/ fanfiction spots are ‘group therapy gone wrong’ because they reinforce unrealistic ideas and interaction.

And believe me, I like to go out, have wine or gin- not both- and talk with associates/ friends/ SOs but seriously, I know what ideas to keep working on when I’ve sober and what to discard.
Although poetry created in that manner can often be superior.
Where’s JP?

She sounds like she’s clinging desperately to the need to believe that any unhappiness she might feel … is someone else’s fault.

I’ve known people a bit like that — I had a former colleague who had an infinite capacity for blaming other people for difficulties that were her own doing, and was able to rationalize jaw-droppingly bad behavior on her own part. Everyone ended up mad at her, and she was never able to perceive that she was the common factor, even though in many ways she was an extremely intelligent woman.

@ delta-orion:

“any unhappiness she might feel…is someone else’s fault”

That’s often how young children attribute blame- it’s a means of preserving self-esteem. Everyone does it to some extent but these women appear to make it a habit.

I see this victim mentality as being culturally supported. Otherwise why would the perpetually offended not feel any shame for their own behaviors.

NH Primary Care Doc,

I enjoy civil disagreements since I learn from them but nothing torques me more in the comments section than someone being insulting to the blog host.

More on self-adulating anti-vax promotion:

TMR facebook announces a new documentary by Christie Dames and Kevin O’Malley, *Moms Determined*, featuring TM, Dragonslayer ( Marissa Ali) – a “quest or unite moms from around the world to help find answers to complicated medical diagnoses”

“a quest to unite”

I’d wish more power to them if they weren’t so entirely misguided. It’s too bad; they might be able to do some good in the world if they weren’t wasting their efforts in all the wrong places.

@Catherine Hall #2:

I get told that I’m only a mother not a doctor or a scientist so what do I know!

Which is ironic, given the number of anti-vaxxers who claim that as a mother they know that vaccines harmed their child and doctors can’t possibly know otherwise.

The ‘worse than child porn’ is so outrageous that yup, I felt some rage on first read. But then I realize it’s hyper-outrageous, i.e. beyond the realm of outrage into utter WTF.

delta-orion’s comment smacks me upside the head, because d-o’s friend reminds me of someone now in my life who frequently resorts to a sort of persecution/martyr worldview (someone’s always ‘screwing them over’), but can also be very combative and hurtful to others (seemingly to a lesser degree than d-o has experienced, thankfully). And what delta-orion sees so beautifully is this friends pain. For which d-o has compassion, a desire to get through. Maybe I’m reading in, but get the impression the fact the friend can’t be reached makes d-o feel sad about the whole situation…

I think to myself that yet again sh!t rolls down-hill. World class WTF doesn’t come out of nowhere. It’s hard for me to be sympathetic when my martyr goes on the ‘all about me’ war-path. But I know that this individual was abandoned by their mother as a child, and left in the care of a physically abusive father — a level of traumatic experience I can’t imagine I can ever fully understand.

I know that folks with personality-disorder type issues often have had some formative horrifying experience in their youth – incidents where they were badly hurt through no fault of their own. It’s hardly surprising that they may shut this out of mind, only to have the repressed return as a variety of irrational projections e.g. ‘vaccine damage conspiracies’, or that these mental distortions lead them to do harm to others in one form or another. Sadly, full-on personality disorders appear to be cases where some part of a person’s humanity becomes broken beyond repair. They become monstrous, and the best advice to others appears to be ‘just stay away, because there’s really nothing you can do about it.’

So I wonder if someone did something awful to Dara Berger. I consider the possibility that “more upsetting than child porn would be to me” linked to the viciousness of “your insensitivity explains why you are still alone” is not a random reference pulled out of the air. I sense some serious sh!t is rolling down-hill here. I imagine I might feel sorry for Berger if I knew her ‘whole story’. But I feel sorrier for the people who are caught in its path, and can’t get away…

I’ve learned that ‘my martyr’ is falling under the sway of an anti-vax “friend”… At this point things are still a long way from AoA level crazy… But I’m afraid…

I do take some solace from Orac’s post, though. I take the appearance of Berger’s screed on AoA as another sign that anti-vax is in it’s death throes as a ‘movement’ capable of maintaining enough influence to threaten public health. It’s not just that Berger wrote it, but that it’s typical of how much more fringey the core AVers have become, along with embracing Tea Party politicians and what not. Taking a wider view, the public sphere in the U.S. appears to be approaching a crisis point with Trump-ism. The mass of sheer crazy seems to growing bigger, but more unstable week-by-week. That’s frightening, of course, but I can’t see anti-vax getting any significant boost there, but rather getting kicked to the curb by more broadly held, more dramatic, and more venal obsessions: anti-immigrant, death-to-all-Muslims, arm-kindergarden-teachers-with-AK47s, and so on. Small comfort, maybe, but I guess I’ll take what I can get.

The apparent definition Ms. Berger (although the intermittent spelling as Barger seems quite appropriate in this case) holds of Bullying reminds me of the Robot Chicken terrorism sketch…

Boy: I pledge allegiance to the hag of the United States of fart.
Terrorist: DID YOU HEAR THAT? HE SAID “FART”! NOW IS THE TIME TO STRIKE!
Boy: I was just trying to be funny!
Announcer: America loves a joke, but not when the punch-line is TERRORISM.
Mother: (baking flag-cake) Ooops! I only put on 49 stars!
Announcer: TERRORISM.
Couple: (at voting booth) We just voted Democrat!
Announcer: TERRORISM.
Jew: (with menorah) Time to light the Hanukkah menorah, kids!
Announcer: TERRORISM.
Punk #1: (at video store) Ooooh, how about The Core?
Punk #2: Ahhhh, …could be good.
Announcer: TERRORISM.

I think it’s pretty clear that Ms. Berger has borderline personality disorder. Grafting an irrational belief onto such a disorder makes for a particularly noxious and difficult person. She gets into high-voltage conflicts with people wherever she goes, but has no insight into how she is the cause of these conflicts. She has no idea how bad she looks, even in her own self-interested description of these encounters. I loved the sentence “I felt silently bullied.” Wow. Even when someone is saying nothing, he is bullying her. “Your insensitivity explains why you are still alone.” How vicious. I hope her victim is not sensitive about being single, and took this crazy lady’s ranting with a grain of salt. Certainly, he has at least decided to have nothing more to do with her.

I think the business of the porn versus the book is very simple: the book dares to question her ideas and the porn is all about someone else and therefore of no concern to her whatever. Lookitme! Lookitme!

@ sadmar:

You more or less hit it on the head about my feelings toward my former friend. I honestly can’t help wondering if she was (and maybe still is) suffering from some sort of low-level depression, and turned to a sense of persecution as a maladaptive way of managing it, the way some people self-medicate with alcohol or drugs. I *liked* her. When she wasn’t tearing a strip off someone for some imagined slight, she was fun.

But at the same time — liking someone, and feeling sorry for them, just isn’t enough. Not when they’re doing real harm. I think Denice made an excellent point (which of course she and others have made here before) when she said that, yes, these women *are* unhappy, they *are* struggling. And no, we shouldn’t forget that. But they don’t get a free pass just because they have hardships to deal with. Their hurt does not justify the harm they do to others, including their own children.

Catherine Hall @2:

Our local charlatan and antivaxer thinks mothers like me are neurotic and don’t want to accept that our children are damaged and could be cured

How is Mr Noakes these days?

@ Denise #23

If you take a thousand people who can’t fix a car and put them all together they still can’t fix a car. Similarly, a thousand of these TMR types aren’t going to be any better at diagnosis than any one of them alone. Perhaps however they will be more entertaining. Definitely more annoying.

So Ms. Berger does not want her baby to the get the DTaP, even though pertussis is floating around lots more than polio. Of course, if her child does get pertussis she will do the same as Heather Dexter: a bunch of nothing useful and then complain on hard was on herself, not her child.

I am quite familiar with bullies online. A bit over ten years ago I participated in a support listserv dedicated to my son’s speech diagnosis (twenty years they got various speech disorder diagnoses, not autism*). One of the Mercury Moms tried to get me banned from the listserv because I just clarified on a thread about the MMR vaccine where she had warned against mercury that it never contained thimerosal.

I got tired of the Mercury Mom Militia going on about vaccines and chelation, that I submitted an email titled “Bad Idea.” The vitriolic nasty grams that landed directly in my email (not the listserv) were amazing.

I dealt with this for a year. I shared some of the Mercury Militia email with some folks I had met on the Healthfraud listserv (go to Quackcast to sign up), and was informed one of that militia was an employee of the late Dr. Bradstreet.

I was thoroughly disgusted and frustrated, so I just left the listserv. It was about two weeks later that a little boy was executed by chelation for the unpardonable crime of being autistic.

And they call me a bully?

* Son now has an autism diagnosis, and it is severe enough that he is eligible for the state’s Developmental Disorders Administration.

AoA commenter Betty Bona chimes in to add refusing to argue with her to the list of bullying tactics:

Two lines I hate hearing from family and friends are, “we get our science from very different sources,” and “we’ll just have to agree to disagree.” It’s their way of ending the argument without having to consider my points. They get to continue with their “more educated than thou” beliefs with the second assumption that I’m a nutcase. I feel bullied then.

@ Christopher Hickie:

Dr Chris, they ARE quite entertaining in an ‘OMFG are they really serious?’ way.
AND how they jockey for attention, compete with each other for the Most Devoted Martyr or Parent of Most Ill Child award.
They are on display at AutismOne 2015 videos ( TMR and Recovery Panels) and the aforementioned TMR TV. The panels include at least 6-7 of them at a time. Yiii!

I never forget when I read their masterpieces that they are above all performing for an audience. Perhaps they’re not really like that but then, how many people would make careers out of narrating their lives as caretakers and their children’s challenges? Only histrionic attentions wh-res.

@Narad: Oh, that is hilarious. Of course, Betty is absolutely correct that saying that “we’ll just have to agree to disagree” is a way of ending the argument without considering her points. What she doesn’t realize is that it is a good strategy for preventing unpleasantness in a social situation where you don’t really want to get into a knock down, drag out argument dealing with antivaccine nutcases like Ms. Barger and Ms. Bona.

It is not, however, bullying. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

Note her sarcasm:
” more educated than thou”
because these people believe that THEY themselves are more educated than doctors, psychologists, researchers.

Herr Doktor Bimler@ 32
Mr Noakes appears to be well thank you. Though sadly out of pocket having had a tribunal find him guilty of sex discrimination against a former employee.
He has suggested his company be allowed to bid against our Meducal Specialist Group when the contract comes up for renewal. He is offering to treat us all with vitamins and his supplement Golec and promises the island will be cancer free. Not sure what he was planning for obstetrics or orthopeadics and trauma. Even he couldnt be daft enough to expect his wonder treatment would be much use in dealing with a breech presentation or a broken leg.
Anyway, as no one seems keen on taking up this offer he is standing as a candidate in a local by-election next week.

They get to continue with their “more educated than thou” beliefs with the second assumption that I’m a nutcase. I feel bullied then.

Think how much more of a bully I must be for not bothering to find out Betty Bona’s* opinions in the first place!

* I cannot help thinking of Julian and Sandy when I read her nym.

# 10 Christopher Hickie

Does a part of me feel bad about asking them to go elsewhere for care? Yes.

Don’t be foolish. You are doing your best to keep your patients safe.

If I had young children I’d be searching out someone with your policies (and running like mad from the waiting room of someone like Dr. Sears)

Berger’s claim that a scientific book about the diagnosis of autism is “worse than child porn” is offensive on so many levels.

Orac: “What she doesn’t realize is that it is a good strategy for preventing unpleasantness in a social situation where you don’t really want to get into a knock down, drag out argument dealing with antivaccine nutcases like Ms. Barger and Ms. Bona.”

My adult autistic kid has more social sense than either of those women.

“We’ll just have to agree to disagree,” is indeed a smarmy, annoying dodge. It doesn’t prevent unpleasantness, because it stinks of undeserved privilege and power to stop discussion. It’s not bullying. It’s haughty dismissal, something people say as an exit put-down they can get away with via faux politese, because everyone now knows the phrase has become a performative cliche.

The thing is, it’s not something you say to actual friends or family you care even a little about. So methinks Betty “Get-Me-A-New-Nym” Bona’ (or is that pronounced ‘big-bo-NAY’) is making that up. That is, either it’s not a direct quote from folks close to her, but a paraphrase expressing how she hears their disengagement, or it’s a direct quote from someone (probably just one person, one time) who is NOT close friend or family, and she’s punching up the martyrdom by framing as coming from multiple close sources. Either way, I’m sensing the sort of hyperbole Denise might characterize as performance for Histrionic Attention Whore Community Theater.

Even if ‘Bona’ did get this form of ‘dis’ from a friend, the ‘bullying’ claim is just so insensitively whiny BS. I was bullied in Jr. High, and I would have celebrated if my tormentors had just dismissed me with an insult. It was physical, creating more fear than anger, and it seemed it would never stop. I’ll credit ‘Bona’ for one thing: saying “I feel bullied then”, not “I know I’m being bullied then.” Yup, it’s all in your mind Betty: either you’re making your own bruises, or you have no idea what actually being bullied feels like.

As I’ve observed, Chris, quite a few of the parents seem to lack that certain *je ne sais quoi* concerning social interaction, self-evaluation, understanding others etc.
and we know that ASDs can display heritability
but we’re not supposed to say that because …you know..
they don’t like it or something.

This woman claims bullying wasn’t so easy in the 1970’s? Thanks, lady. Thanks for telling me that. I’m sure I must have imagined all those bruises way back in middle school since it was so difficult and time consuming to be a bully back then.

SMH

This woman has no idea what it means to be bullied, and her complaint is just a shield against criticism . . . deserved criticism as it happens. She can’t defend her views with logic, so she uses emotion. Cowardly, despicable, and worst of all, dishonest.

“We’ll just have to agree to disagree,” is the Yankee “Bless your heart.”

Panacea: “This woman claims bullying wasn’t so easy in the 1970’s?”

I sometimes wonder if the kids who bullied me relentlessly in fourth grade are now part of the AoA crowd. I was an Army brat who had lived elsewhere than their little midwest town, and would actually read books. Apparently being different is a crime in some small towns, and small minded communities like AoA.

Catherine Hall @ #39:

“Even he couldnt be daft enough to expect his wonder treatment would be much use in dealing with a breech presentation or a broken leg.”

Why not? It works for everything else:

“We’ve had complete successes with many common cancers including prostate lung breast and melanoma, but a little with leukemia too. The immune system can eradicate chronic inflammation, bacterial and viral infections, and our GcMAF has been successful here, and with Autism, Chronic Herpes, Chronic Acne, Chronic cirrhosis of the liver, Chronic kidney disease, Chronic depression, Colitis, Crohn’s, Fibromyalgia, Hepatitis, Herpes, LMBBS, ME/CFS, Osteoporosis, and various types of Immune dysfunction including allergies. Research shows GcMAF can reverse HIV, Parkinson’s, and prevent deterioration in multiple sclerosis (MS) and ALS, and in its role of immune system regulator, can reverse diseases that attack the immune system like Lupus and Arthritis. And is effective with wound healing.”

https://web.archive.org/web/20140326214335/http://www.gcmaf.eu/how-gcmaf-works/

I was an Army brat who had lived elsewhere than their little midwest town, and would actually read books. Apparently being different is a crime in some small towns, and small minded communities like AoA.

I don’t quite agree with your conclusion there, Chris.

I was an AF brat, back in the days when the Viet Nam war was in full swing, and we moved a lot. Big city schools, small town schools, on base schools, schools near the base, and schools nowhere near a base (because dad was overseas) – all of them had bulling, and anybody could be the target.

I think it’s a fundamental part of the human condition – men, women, boys, and girls. You might as well expect big fish to not eat little fish.

I’m not saying that it should be allowed. You can stop a bully, but you can’t stop them all.

@sadmar —

“We’ll just have to agree to disagree,” is indeed a smarmy, annoying dodge. It doesn’t prevent unpleasantness, because it stinks of undeserved privilege and power to stop discussion. It’s not bullying. It’s haughty dismissal, something people say as an exit put-down they can get away with via faux politese, because everyone now knows the phrase has become a performative cliche.

I (at least think) I usually say “Let’s just agree to disagree,” or at least try to suggest that’s how I mean it via tone and context.

But I do fairly regularly suggest that resolution under circumstances where the debate has gone on past long enough for it to be clear that no other kind of agreement is going to be reached.

Is that icky of me? I’ve never intended to convey anything by it other than “OK. This is going nowhere. Let’s stop arguing.”

^^That’s a sincere and not a trick question. I mean, if it’s annoying, I’ll stop doing it.

If you’re enough of a BULLY to make me. Of course.

(No, really. Am I unwittingly condescending to people by saying that?)

And believe me, I like to go out, have wine or gin- not both- and talk with associates/ friends/ SOs but seriously, I know what ideas to keep working on when I’ve sober and what to discard.
Although poetry created in that manner can often be superior.
Where’s JP?

At a fairly raucous event right at the moment, from the sound of things.

Their hurt does not justify the harm they do to others, including their own children.

Yes, a thousand times. But I think we err when we conflate the harm with the person. We can maintain some sympathy for the human-beings while condemning their actions. I don’t think this is just philosophical nit-picking, either. What we want is to eliminate as much harm as possible, yes? To develop effective strategies to prevent harms, we must understand them, and some form of measured sympathy is typically necessary to do that.

If there ARE something like personality disorders operating in ‘extremist’ anti-vaxers at AoA, TMR etc., that puts them into the ‘probably lost causes’ category, and we’re not going to be very successful in getting their behavior to change. It seems the most we can do is warn others to steer clear, and work to reduce future incidence of the causes of such disorders – the best methods of which are likely to be doing what we can to protect the vulnerable from the harms that can warp their sensibilities in their formative years, and working to counter-act the forces that may trigger ‘dormant’ pathologies to erupt into harm later in life.

My hypotheses here are:
1) The psychological pathologies that lead people to callous actions tend to fall into two general categories:
a) Repeated positive reinforcement of bad behavior in childhood and adolescence.
b) Significant un-addressed childhood victimization. (e.g. child sexual abusers who were themselves victims of sexual abuse denied/covered-up/etc.) I think this has something to do with evolutionary ‘natural selection’ among social creatures, where the worst survival chances fall to those at the lowest rung on the dominance ladder – thus the instinct after receiving a beat-down to turn around and administer another to a weaker member of the clan.
2. ‘b’ is much more common than ‘a’ for the simple reason that brutality is a more common experience for children than basking in unchallenged privilege.
3. Neither ‘a’ nor ‘b’ are universally causal. Some folks will emerge from such environments/experiences with negligible effect, only minor damage, only self-directed harm, etc. Some x-factor likely figures in the equation leading to harming pathologies.
4. Those x-factors are either too varied, unchangeable (genetic?), or unknown to imagine addressing, so our focus should stay on ‘a’ and ‘b’ (as intractable as they may seem to the pragmatic eye…)
5. ‘a’ and ‘b’ aren’t mutually exclusive at all, and the most extreme ‘deviance’ may result from a combination of the two. One scenario might be a ‘spoiled’ child who suddenly experiences a traumatic instance of how cruel the world can be, and then ‘acts out’ in ways that are rewarded in some form. (The play/film The Ruling Class comes to mind as a parable…) Another scenario might be a neglected child who has neither buffers against cruelty nor controls on their response.
7. These pathologies may simmer without leading to significant harms until some triggering incident in adulthood exacerbates them. Obviously perhaps, I’m thinking here that most AV-crazy likely stems from some childhood thing that doesn’t lead to big-time overt wigginess until the individual faces the ‘crisis’ of dealing with parenting a special-needs child. But certainly other life events – divorce, job loss, financial woes, etc. – lead vulnerable folks over-the-edge where more grounded folks regain their footing.
8. Recent history suggests that these psycho-social pathologies are amplified by mutual reinforcement… which has been immensely enabled by the explosion of self-selected immediate communication forms: cable news, talk radio, the blogosphere, social media. Now all the damaged nut-jobs can find each other, and create insular ‘virtual community’ bubbles that support distorted ‘alternate realities’ that rival Philip K. Dick wildest imaginings. It’s hard to imagine either AV or Trumpism being major Things without the internet.

OK. If there’s anything to these hypotheses, the question remains as ever ‘what is to be done?’ How DO we we protect vulnerable kids from the harms that can turn them toward the monstrous? How DO we counter-act the forces that call-up and unleash the waiting monstrous in adults?

I mean if you’ve plowed through the previous 684 words, I ought to have some pragmatic suggestions for you, amirite?

Wish I did… Wish I didn’t feel so exhausted… So at sea… So old and weak… For tonight anyway, outside of muttering vague platitudes about “justice for all” ‘fighting inequality and exploitation’ or good ol’ “do unto others” human decency, I got nothin’…

^ Unless, of course, “performative cliche” represents an infraction under some jurisdiction’s Code of Aesthetics.

Would halting things at the outset be any less of a “smarmy, annoying dodge … [that] doesn’t prevent unpleasantness, because it stinks of undeserved privilege and power to stop discussion”?

I have a close friend who was in earlier years quite mercurial. Unsurprisingly, after several repetitions, my “oh, G-d, it’s time to play trying to start an argument again” circuits were quite finely tuned.

Betty Bona’s characterization of “bullying” is neither more nor less than the complaint that people eventually refuse to put up with hers.

Johnny: “Big city schools, small town schools, on base schools, schools near the base, and schools nowhere near a base (because dad was overseas) – all of them had bulling, and anybody could be the target.”

Actually, I was just highlighting the most egregious of them all. Mostly because the fourth grade class I had in Missouri Rural School #xyz was making me repeat what I had learned in my third grade at Stillwell Elementary of Ft. Ord, CA. It apparently was an abomination that I had already mastered long division and would routinely get 100% on most tests. That place actually made be behind my fifth grade peers at the next school, an American ex-pat school in South America.

This is why I locked myself in my brother’s car because I was chased there with threats of real physical violence (well, I already had been hit by full force with by someone on a bike earlier). My brother was in high school, and was supposedly taking care of me while visiting a friend.

It was nothing compared to the teasing (not bullying) I had in 8th in the Canal Zone. Oh, and I did not get bullied in Minnesota during 7th when my dad was stationed in Korea. I just had stupid boys try to toss paper balls down my cleavage in math class (which was self paced, so I made up the time I lost in fourth grade, and having a mathematically incompetent 6th grade teacher in that private overseas school).

The only good thing about living in that wretched place while my dad attend the Command and General Staff School just over the border (and past the prison farms) was that I picked up the habit of going on long walks.

Yes, I was bullied in junior high… but by then I had grown a spine, another “good” thing about that wretched place. Something that has been very helpful in the age of teh internets.

But the difference between the likes of Bona and myself, is that she is the very definition of a troll. She badgers people who do not think like she does.

Though I admit to occasionally mocking them, but I try now to limit that at satire sites like TheSpudd, where because I could do the long division I learned in third grade I am labeled a “Pharma Shill.” I am sorry, but folks who do not know how to click on a link, find two numbers on a math table, use their computer calculator to divide two simple numbers deserve to be mocked.

Yes, I am a math and computer literacy bully. 😉

@ ann

Wow, IMHO it’s really cool and considerate that you asked sincerely in response to my rant.* You rock! So I’ll fight my drowsies to attempt a sincere, thoughtful reply…

In person, I think tone of voice usually carries the day. Context matters a lot, too. If you’re getting browbeaten, and say “let’s just agree to disagree” in exhausted resignation, the subtext would be different from the way I’ve encountered the phrase. My experience with it (which may be idiosyncratic) comes in academic settings, where a person in control of discussion employs it to cut off an exchange with putative peers after being caught with a weak argument. Q and A’s after conference presentations or job talks, meetings with The Dean of Faculty, etc.

Actually, I have no problem whatsoever with someone cutting off unproductive discussion, or even ducking a difficult challenge. To me the icky comes from being disingenuous about it when the power dynamic is equal or favors the person withdrawing. The oxymoron of “agree to disagree” is too cute by half, and a sort of coercive gentility in those situations. Thus “Let’s agree” is worse than “We’ll have to agree” if you hear it voiced from a position of authority. You don’t want to ‘just disagree’. You think you’re right and you want to continue pressing the argument to a conclusion to demonstrate that to your interlocutor, or to others listening in.

Of course, people can feel that way when they’re dead wrong, just droning on repeating unsupported assertions, or any intermediate doses thereof. My suggestion then, is that anyone so beseiged should weather the storm long enough to do the small bit of critical reflection on the situation required to generate a specific context-appropriate disengagement instead of invoking the shop-worn generic form – especially in online text forums where tone is damn hard to communicate, and readers often assume the worst and fail to pick up the cues we may to include to indicate otherwise.

And I’ll suggest that some measures of honest disclosure and respect for our interlocutors is the key to ick-avoidance.

Having run a few examples through my mind, I’ll tentatively suggest a form of [apology] [succinct explanation of the problem with the exchange] [withdrawal statement]. And to whatever extent we may be in control of the discussion, I’d suggest we ‘own it’. E.g., if someone drones on and on with the same ‘point’ in a public exchange we might say “I’m sorry, but this isn’t going anywhere, and we need to move on, so I’m going to take the next question.” The apology expresses the minimal respect we expect from anyone honestly taking issue with us. Combined with the problem ID, I think it distinguishes the issue at hand from any broad judgement of the other person as a whole – which we’re not in a position to make with someone we don’t know, and don’t want to make with family/friends who have other opinions or qualities we value.

Again I’m suggesting measured respect and honesty, not profuse apology to the point of obsequious butt-kissing on oe hand, or brutal candor on the other. Thus, we might say “I’m sorry, but this isn’t going anywhere” when we’re actually thinking “Damnit, I can’t take any more of this crap!”

It also strikes me as a good idea to ‘own’ wthdrawal from a position of interpersonal weakness. For example, if we’re being browbeaten with anti-vax conspiracy nonsense by a friend or relative we’re ‘stuck with’, we might say ‘Look, Betty. I’m worn out. I just don’t have the stomach to keep arguing with you. Please let’s drop it and talk about something else.” Or “Look, Betty. I don’t have the stomach to keep arguing with you. I’m sorry, but I’m out of here.” Depending on the situation, we might say we’ll resume the discussion later, or only entertain resuming it under certain conditions (like, being reasonably calm), or have no desire to ever participate in the argument again under any circumstances, or no intent of even listening. “I’m sorry, but I have to preserve what little peace of mind the rest of my life leaves me, and if you go there, I’m gonna have to leave the room.”

Granted, Dara and Betty make it clear that they will take great offense at anything other than total acceptance of their First Principle: “The vaccines ruined my perfect snowflake!” But my premise is that we’re talking to people we don’t have the luxury of writing off, and there will less offense taken and less trouble spilling over to other matters if we choose our words wisely. Doing so is also good practice for when we have to deal with folks who aren’t being bat guano bonkers, but just boorish, tedious, or dumb about a certain given topic at a certain given time. I also like to think I remain true to my own standards – treat others the way I want to be treated – even – or maybe especially – when they’re taking a dump on me. That is, I like the feeling of “I didn’t sink to their level”, or perhaps “I ‘won’ by demonstrating my moral superiority”. That said, there can come a time when nothing but the straight poop will do, “You may or may not be a fine person in a lot of other ways, but on this, you’ve been a total f***nutz spewing out irrational harmful garbage that makes me want to puke, and then go outside for the good long primal scream I’m withholding to speak to you now in this calm quiet voice.” Or something like that…

In sum, whether “Lets just agree to disagree” rises to ick level depends, but while there are certainly worse things we could say, I think we can (and should) do better…
______
* In addition to my long-standing pique at “agree to disagree” my ranting was influenced by sympathetic angst at my SO’s tales of a stressful Thanksgiving dinner spent fending off an aggressive martyr-complex sibling’s attempts (yup, this is the one moving toward anti-vax) to dredge up argument-starting family stuff. Which fending-off the SO has long given up trying to do with delicate, clever, forced gentility because It Does Not Work — now just saying calmly but firmly “I’m sorry, but I am NOT going to talk about THAT!”

This woman has never been bullied.

Her characterization of the judgment she’s experienced as “bullying” is insulting to every child in the world who has actually experienced it.

Dara, I hope you read this post about you, and the comments section. You are co-opting children’s pain, and trying to excuse yourself by adding that those children’s parents can just move or sue.

And I am not bullying you when I state that you are not the victim in this situation.

Your reference to bullies in the title, Orac, provides me with a hook to post something here on a matter that is dear to me and many skeptics in Australia, and increasingly internationally. So apologies if I am going a little off thread, but the matter is urgent: This is an SOS call-out:
The multi million dollar sham therpay cult leader, Serge Benhayon, is suing Esther Rocket for defamation over criticism by her of Universal Medicine, a sham health and wellbeing therapy group / business / philosophy / cult. Benhayon is trying to silence his prominent critic by financially ruining her.

To contribute to her support (crowd) fund see here:
https://ozcrowd.com/campaigns/esther-rockett-legal-defence-fund/#.VlmDlHYrLIU

To contribute to the Streisand effect, please repost this:
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/jane-hansen-how-universal-medicine-bullied-me/story-fni0cwl5-1227262426186?sv=9363ff3f378085a14130e64e297d13b1

Thank you good people for your patience with this somewhat off topic post.

Would halting things at the outset be any less of a “smarmy, annoying dodge …

Yes, usually.

Betty Bona’s characterization of “bullying” is neither more nor less than the complaint that people eventually refuse to put up with hers.

Well, I’ll contend it’s “more” because it’s so self-contradictory, circular, and enclosed as you pointed out @ #35 – we’re bullies if we argue with her, or if we decline to argue with her. I can honestly complain that people refuse to put up with my complaints without being a fascist.* Bona’s using the form of a complaint to demand acceptance of her terms. If you can’t argue, and can’t not-argue, then the only option is to salute and fall in line.

Even if we agreed to disagree about how “We’ll just have to agree to disagree” tends to be used, 🙂 I can’t imagine any of the possibilities being Narad-employed. Having been very close to some mercurial folks myself, and often flummoxed in attempts to move things back toward even keel, I’m sincerely curious how you responded when your “oh, G-d, it’s time to play trying to start an argument again” circuits were tripped. If you’re still friends, you might be better at that than I’ve been… (Anecdata can be useful, if you care to share.)

You seem to have been irked by “performative cliche”, though I’m not clear why exactly. I see I wasn’t quite clear in expressing the point. My bad. I’ll spare the bandwidth of the full clarification, and just note that I wasn’t apologizing for dear Betty, but pointing to something in her tale that strikes me as tellingly bogus. That is, in seeing how “agree to disagree” can be taken as condescending, I’m skeptical it was ever used that way by anyone who is actually close to her. I suspect she’s recasting something else into a betrayal by intimates, fabulating butt-hurt melodrama to appeal to the AoA readership’s self-aggrandizing pity-party. You may find that far-fetched or irrelevant to what you object to in the comment, but rest assured I wasn’t trying to cut her any slack, but quite the opposite…
___
* In fact, I have complained about people who ‘refused to put up with my complaints’, (though I bitched to others, not them) when those original complaints were not just to them, but about them not following their own written rules, were on point, supported by strong un-contradicted and un-countered evidence, and when it was their GOD DAMN JOB to adjudicate complaints fairly AND keep their sh!t straight to begin with…
Like an old song: “There, I’ve bitched it again”…

Not an intellectually respectable article. Just drop the insults and make the case (with evidence, not assertions, please) that there is no causal link between vaccines and autism.

This writer can’t do that, which is why he resorts to ad hominem aspersions. What an intellectual lightweight.

@ sadmar:

re # 7 & 8 above.

Sure. What I’ve observed is that they are working very hard to CREATE these ‘bubbles’ in order to insulate themselves from further insults from the reality-oriented community.

So as much as their projects- books, films, websites, social media- are engineered to proselytise to newcomers, they also work to keep partisans within the fold and comforted by reinforcing material, awash in anti-vax. I think the recent spate of AoA related books published by Skyhorse is an excellent example: during the holiday season, Kim will list them all ( see last year’s) as gift ideas. Then there are the conferences and films released publicly in theatres ( “The Greater Good”). TMR has a web TV station with 10 channels- all loony, all the time.
Facebook, twitter,
hashtag heaven ( of #CDCwhistleblower, #Hearthiswell etc fame) as well as more private means: this work serves as a second career for many of the principals.

Similarly, merchants of woo are establishing their own alt media empires via computer radio/ phone broadcasting- prn.fm and talk network- founders of these outlets continuously warn their followers about how biased the mainstream is- so ” Get your news from us!” They would form an impermeable bubble around their groupies as surely as conservative TV/ radio does. Their skewed politics and economics reinforce the basic message- Buy our products to protect yourself- linked to their merchandise. They teach followers/ converts ‘how to live’ as surely as religions do compleat with a system of values, mores and taboos.

An endless array of cults for modern anthropologists to survey.

Not an intellectually respectable article. Just drop the insults and make the case (with evidence, not assertions, please) that there is no causal link between vaccines and autism.

This writer can’t do that, which is why he resorts to ad hominem aspersions. What an intellectual lightweight.

The autism / vaccines link has been adressed in several other article on this blog, so you are criticizing the article for something that would have been very redundant.

“The autism / vaccines link has been adressed in _several_ other article on this blog,”

You misspelled “innumerable”.

“he resorts to ad hominem aspersions. What an intellectual lightweight.”

Irony not your strong suit?

Burmese Days #52
Usually, the task to show that a new hypothesis is reasonably true is to people proposing it. And believers in autism/vaccine hypothesis haven’t succeeded.

Just drop the insults and make the case (with evidence, not assertions, please) that there is no causal link between vaccines and autism.

As others have mentioned, the “case” has been made in innumerable posts on this and other blogs.

How about instead you provide evidence that there is no “causal link” between anti-vax craziness and children dying from preventable (by vaccine) disease?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/whooping-cough-kills-infant-in-laurentians-1.3340923

Burmese Days: “Not an intellectually respectable article. Just drop the insults and make the case (with evidence, not assertions, please) that there is no causal link between vaccines and autism.”

What was the point of this article? Did you understand it?

“This writer can’t do that, which is why he resorts to ad hominem aspersions. What an intellectual lightweight.”

Can you? Instead of using insults like in your first and last sentences, just provide the missing science. Provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the American pediatric schedule causes autism.

Here are some suggestions:

Use the search box near the top right of this page to make sure the study you post has not already been discussed on this blog.

Also, be sure that the researchers are actually qualified. So no lawyers, journalists, computer scientists, professors of finance and others who have not studied the relevant science. And also reputable, so no person whose license to practice medicine has been legally revoked.

By the way, Burmese Days, do you now feel like you are being bullied? Do you also think that the book Neurotribes is as terrible as child porn?

Just asking to see where you stand.

Just drop the insults and make the case (with evidence, not assertions, please) that there is no causal link between vaccines and autism

Use the internet much? Focus on the right-hand side of the blog as you face the computer screen. Under “Categories” you can find 1,215 blog posts discussing the myth that vaccines cause autism. Put your mouse over the words “antivaccine nonsense” and wait for a little blue line to appear, then left-click.

It’s really not difficult.

@Dr. Hickie #10: ” if you aren’t going to vaccinate then you are a risk to my newborns immunocompromised patients. If that makes me a bully, well bully for me.”

I would be interested in making a computation of the difference in risk between a vaccinated child and an unvaccinated one. What would expect the difference to be? How might we go about making such a computation? What numbers would we seek? Because the parameters would vary enormously between vaccines, a one-by-one approach would be best. I think the probabilities could then be summed. Not quite correct, but the probabilities of the intersections can be assumed to be small enough to ignore.

Consider the MMR? What is the probability that an unvaccinated child will be contagious for one of those diseases at some point prior to adulthood? What is the probability that a vaccinated child will be contagious for one of those diseases? Do you know or know where estimates of those risks can be found?

Just saying – another child in Canada has died of whooping cough – too young for the vaccine and family and friends that infected the baby were UNVACCINATED! A tragic waste.

Check http://www.cbc.ca for more information.

Seems Dara the Explara has redefined ‘bully’.
A bully is the person who planted the tree in their own back yard that Dara then walks into while trespassing.

Is she off the wall? Only like viewing the wall from orbit.

Like many others, I was heavily bullied at school, several brief hospital trips, many many days off school (truant , fake illness, stress related illness), close to suicidal on many occasions.
Yup, if the bullying had been limited to her examples, I’m sure life would have been vastly different and better.
When these type people drop into hyperbole, they seem incapable of assessing their exaggerated examples and then double down when called on their highly inappropriate comparisons.
The thin veneer of civilization seems worn away in some people.

@Beth #72
Of course I can’t speak for Doctor Hickie, but I would modify his statement to something more like this: “If you aren’t going to vaccinate then you are willfully and stupidly posing a risk to my newborn and immunocompromised patients.”

Nice that you raised the topic of herd immunity, though, given that so many anti-vaxxers discount it.

@brian #75

The rephrase doesn’t impact my question. What is that risk? Whether you consider the person making that choise “willfull and stupid” or “naive and mislead” or anything else does not alter the computation.

I don’t consider myself anti-vaxxer nor do I discount herd immunity. You want to reconsider your assumptions about me.

@Beth:
I’m making an assumption that all of your questions have a point. What is it?
If they do not have a point, then my apologies for making such an assumption.

So I’ll fight my drowsies to attempt a sincere, thoughtful reply

I feel bullied by your thoughtful, gracious gesture.

Actually, I have no problem whatsoever with someone cutting off unproductive discussion, or even ducking a difficult challenge.

^^In the latter circumstance, I would never say agree-to-disagree, or even think it. On the other hand, I wouldn’t be very likely to be there to begin with. I enjoy a difficult challenge.

I guess that if the difficulty was that I was being outmatched but, for some reason I couldn’t quite put my finger on, still didn’t think I was wrong, I’d say something like “OK, maybe. I’ll have to think about it,” and try not to sound too sulky about it.

If the difficulty was that I was finding the argument too upsetting/disturbing to continue, if among peers I knew well, I’d probably say something like “OK, I don’t want to talk about it anymore” plus a courteous acknowledgment or concession, to whatever degree was merited (ie — “I appreciate that you think x, y, z; I will bear it in mind; I totally agree about x; I think y and z are a stupid, tragic mistake. And now I don’t want to talk about it anymore” or words to that effect.

Although, of course, I’d listen to the other person’s closing statement along the same lines delivered in his/her preferred style, too.

If among peers I didn’t know well, I probably wouldn’t get into the argument to begin with, if I could possibly avoid it.

Except on the internet, in which case I would only say agree-to-disagree if the debate had been going on and on long enough for it to be clear that agreement wasn’t going to happen, and that no other peaceable resolution was possible.

To me the icky comes from being disingenuous about it when the power dynamic is equal or favors the person withdrawing.

That’s a tricky one, though, a lot of the time. Social (as opposed to professional/institutional, etc.) hierarchy is kind of in the eye of the beholder. The parties to the dispute both might think they’re the underdog. I know I always do, despite also knowing that it can’t possibly always be the case.

The oxymoron of “agree to disagree” is too cute by half, and a sort of coercive gentility in those situations. Thus “Let’s agree” is worse than “We’ll have to agree” if you hear it voiced from a position of authority. You don’t want to ‘just disagree’. You think you’re right and you want to continue pressing the argument to a conclusion to demonstrate that to your interlocutor, or to others listening in.

Yes, that’s maddening. Completely agree.

But I’m assuming that both parties are resigned to never prevailing and that both are free to walk away with their dignity — at least in their own eyes, although not necessarily in each other’s.

Nevertheless. I think I’ll think about it more carefully before I use it in future. Thanks for the feedback, although naturally, I feel bullied by your insistence on being a separate and distinct autonomous entity from me with thoughts of your own. Oppressed, even. Unfair. Unfair.

@sadmar again —

Would halting things at the outset be any less of a “smarmy, annoying dodge …

Yes, usually.

Again, completely agree.

@Denice #63

Sounds like they’ve gone past community right into subculture. With the worst of them bordering on cult.

There’s an important mathematical reason why Beth’s suggested calculations would actually be of very little value.

Suppose we are evacuating a vessel, and the lifeboats we must use are of a very, very peculiar design: they respond to people’s birthdays; in fact, they respond to probabilities of birthdays. As soon as the probability that two people in the lifeboat share a birthday exceeds 50%, the boat is at capacity and cannot accept any more passengers. How many passengers can we put in each boat?

The usual answer from the mathematically inexperienced goes as follows: “Well, the chances of two people sharing a birthday are 1 in 365. So if we divide 50% – that is, 1 in 2 – by 1 in 365, well, that gives us around 183 or so. Maybe we have to round down a little, but it’s still up there around 180.”

But the real answer is 23.

See, the naive person assumes that the probability stays what it is for the first* person. In reality, each person lowers the probability for all people who come after them, that they will have an unshared birthday.

* actually the second, in this case, but that’s not important.

The calculation Beth is asking for similarly assumes that there is some fixed probability that any given child has of contracting a given VPD. But the probability isn’t fixed. It goes up with every person who gets vaccinated; if the VPD comes to them, they become an obstacle to the disease’s spread. It goes down with every person who skips vaccination; if the VPD comes to them, that person becomes an ally to the disease, helping it spread.

There is a whole field of academic study devoted to questions like this, asking questions about when people choose to “cooperate” and when they choose to “defect”. There are some scenarios in which there are rewards for “defecting”, as long as you are one of the sufficiently early defectors – and therefore such a choice becomes tempting, whether or not it is morally acceptable. This isn’t one of them. When herd immunity has been compromised, it puts everyone in danger – and of course the “early defectors” who chose to forego protection are not reaping rewards for dereliction of duty, they’re facing the greatest danger. So the question is, why would anyone who has a sense of enlightened self-interest – or hell, even not-so-enlightened self-interest – say “I’ll just skip vaccination!”? I have to think that it’s because they get the math as dramatically wrong as the person who calculates the lifeboat capacity thinking “I made the calculation for the first person, and that same figure applies no matter how many more people enter the equation.”

@Antaeus Feldspar

Of course the probability of infection with a vaccine-preventable disease depends not on some overall (say, national) figure representing vaccine uptake but on much more local conditions. If someone like Beth is concerned about a special snowflake’s risk from disease compared to the much lower risk from vaccination, it would be much better for that snowflake to be among the rare unvaccinateded spawn of an exceptionally selfish and willfully-ignorant person in a community with exceptionally high vaccine uptake than to be among the many unvaccinated children who are clustered in a private institution like the Waldorf school near my home. Bob Sear’s clearly acknowledged this when he advised his selfishly vaccine-adverse clients to keep their anti-vaxx status on the down low.

Antaeus Feldspar: “There is a whole field of academic study devoted to questions like this, asking questions about when people choose to “cooperate” and when they choose to “defect”.”

Which leads to studies like:

Pediatrics. 2009 Jun;123(6):1446-51.
Parental refusal of pertussis vaccination is associated with an increased risk of pertussis infection in children.

Am J Epidemiol. 2008 Dec 15;168(12):1389-96. Epub 2008 Oct 15.
Geographic clustering of nonmedical exemptions to school immunization requirements and associations with geographic clustering of pertussis.

JAMA. 2000 Dec 27;284(24):3145-50.
Individual and community risks of measles and pertussis associated with personal exemptions to immunization.

“When herd immunity has been compromised, it puts everyone in danger – and of course the “early defectors” who chose to forego protection are not reaping rewards for dereliction of duty, they’re facing the greatest danger.”

There is historical evidence of this happening in many places. Like the measles epidemic in Japan after they decided to make that vaccine voluntary. Then there was the diphtheria epidemic when the USSR broke up. Plus their have been local outbreaks of mumps (Iowa, Wisconsin), and a few of measles (Indiana, and most recently California).

Plus there have been comparisons of nations with varying pertussis vaccine policies. Sweden was compared to Norway in Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story (which also shows what happened to Japan).

Beth has been shown those studies multiple times. So she claims she knows the risks better for other vaccines like hepatitis and HPV.

Beth,

Consider the MMR? What is the probability that an unvaccinated child will be contagious for one of those diseases at some point prior to adulthood? What is the probability that a vaccinated child will be contagious for one of those diseases? Do you know or know where estimates of those risks can be found?

The probability of any child in the US becoming infected by measles, mumps or rubella is very low, because of high vaccine uptake. However, you should also consider that an unvaccinated child will likely grow into an adult with no immunity to these diseases, which can be very much more serious when contracted as an adult. That adult will be faced with the possibility of contracting a potentially life-threatening illness that is endemic in much of the rest of the world. I don’t think that person has been done any favors by her parents.

Here’s an analogy:
“What is the probability of a child being killed or injured in a car driven by someone over the legal limit for alcohol? What is the probability of death or injury in a car with a sober driver?”

A fatal accident is unlikely even if the driver is DUI (I estimate approximately one fatal accident per 90,000 miles driven), but the point is that being drunk makes it approximately 700 times more likely that a fatal accident will happen, just as being unvaccinated makes it very much more likely that the child will suffer illness, death or permanent disability. You wouldn’t risk your child’s life by driving her around when drunk, which is quite rightly illegal, so why would you leave her at greatly increased risk of a serious illness?

Correction:
“That adult will be faced with the possibility of contracting three potentially life-threatening illnesses that are endemic in much of the rest of the world.”

Beth: “What is the probability that an unvaccinated child will be contagious for one of those diseases at some point prior to adulthood?”

A whole lot higher than a child who has had two MMR vaccines as per the ACIP schedule. The risks are relative. They get higher when like minded folk gather together. Like the at a church gathering in Indiana.

The Disney measles outbreak hit at all of the kids of a few families, like one that was written about in the Arizona press. But on the other hand, tens of thousands of vaccinated persons who went to Disneyland at the same time did not get measles.

Of course, it should be pointed out again that those who have no medical reason to not vaccinate, but decide they will be “safe” are parasites on their community’s immunity provided by their responsible neighbors.

Aargh, stuck in moderation because of one extra link!

Here are the words without the links:

Beth: “What is the probability that an unvaccinated child will be contagious for one of those diseases at some point prior to adulthood?”

A whole lot higher than a child who has had two MMR vaccines as per the ACIP schedule. The risks are relative. They get higher when like minded folk gather together. Like the at a church gathering in Indiana.

The Disney measles outbreak hit at all of the kids of a few families, like one that was written about in the Arizona press. But on the other hand, tens of thousands of vaccinated persons who went to Disneyland at the same time did not get measles.

Of course, it should be pointed out again that those who have no medical reason to not vaccinate, but decide they will be “safe” are parasites on their community’s immunity provided by their responsible neighbors.

I don’t think this has been addressed.

Dana Berger wrote: “The tactics are so much worse than when I grew up in the 70’s. You could not get an entire school to gang up on someone’s Facebook page or send a compromised picture or video of that person and have it go viral. You pretty much had only a few choices to hurt them. Whisper rumors about them to other people, which let’s face it takes time. One popular thing was to scribble something mean about them on the bathroom wall. Although you had to hope that people used the stall and actually noticed the writing. ”
__
To me, this is phrased as if Dana herself was one of the (rather ineffectual) bullies of the 1970’s.

Also, the whole piece is riddled with grammatical errors. Where is the editorial oversight of Dan Olmsted and Kim Stagliano? They can at least write a grammatically correct sentence, even if the science is lacking.

Ah, I see we have a brave “Dana” at AoA trying to argue with the denizens. Of course, they will let through a few posts, and then prevent her from arguing back by blocking her responses.

Dana wrote:

You’re entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

Have you ever once thought of those who CANNOT receive vaccinations? Those who have immunological disease, immunocompromised, the very young and the very old, those undergoing cancer treatment, and a plethora of other health conditions. Being near YOUR unvaccinated children puts THEM at extremely high risk.

As for the vaccine-injury compensation court. You do realize don’t you, that this isn’t a trial-based thing – you don’t even have to come up with much proof, just an ambulance-chasing attorney to say something, the panel (who are equally as uneducated), just do their jobs and hand out the compensation funding – no need for medical facts or science. But, you already knew that, right?

Seems like the only bullying going on here are antivaxers who wish ill harm upon the rest of society because you can’t grasp the fact that the most horrendous diseases have been nearly eradicated due to vaccines. Try going to a third-world country and seeing for yourself the diseases you’ll never see in your lifetime because those diseases are virtually eradicated here. It’s easy to ignore them when you’ve never seen them or watch entire families and communities taken because they didn’t have vaccines or their govt. is propagating a conspiracy (African AIDS, anyone?).

Your child’s physician did the right thing by telling you he would no longer care for your unvaccinated child. By doing so, YOU risk putting his other patients at harm. What is so hard to understand that as a society, each of us is responsible to curb deadly disease, to protect those who are the highest risk of fatal disease?

Anyone who challenges your beliefs and assertions must automatically be a bully, huh? Sorry you feel that way. Didn’t anyone ever tell you, you don’t always get what you want? Who is the real bully here?

I took a peek at AoA to see Dana’s comment and lo! and behold!
RI’s old friend, Greg, writes that Orac’s minions didn’t comment as much on Thursday because it was their day off – as pharma shills. Bought, he says.

Right. Except that Orac didn’t add a post that day IIRC so less comments would be expected and not everyone @ RI celebrates that holiday**.

He shows us how his mind works. Which isn’t saying much.

**We minions are truly INTERNATIONAL- not confined within the borders of any country

Well, I wasn’t busy commenting on Thanksgiving because I was hard at work making my famous pan-roasted GMO turnips (my pharma Masters gave me the day off, but only because I promised to shill extra hard on Yule and Samhain).

As a member in good standing of the Minions International Marching and Chowder Society, I feel it incumbent upon me to celebrate all holidays in all countries as if they were my own. This is merely common courtesy – no thanks are necessary.

RI’s old friend, Greg, writes that Orac’s minions didn’t comment as much on Thursday because it was their day off

Ah, I remember back when he denied being Canadian and then tried to tune up his spelling tells.

Of course, he has readily acknowledged that he is Canadian at AoA.

The Disney measles outbreak hit at all of the kids of a few families, like one that was written about in the Arizona press.

I find it unfortunate that Lanaudière is so often overlooked.

Some day I could tell you the story of how I wandered around outside being insane something something shoelace don’t lose your sh!t something something.

“…he was a queer man and would go about the village without noticing people or saying anything. In his own teepee he would joke, and when he was on the warpath with a small party, he would joke to make his warriors feel good. But around the village he hardly ever noticed anybody, except little children. All the Lakotas like to dance and sing; but he never joined a dance, and they say nobody ever heard him sing. But everybody liked him, and they would do anything he wanted or go anywhere he said.”

The term “crybully” has been coined for people like her.

Ultimately this is about the entitlement to proof-by-assertion; in “social justice” rhetoric one is considered “silenced” if they’re not allowed to have the last word on a matter. It’s a power grab, plain and simple.

I hear that Narad has some high gain antennas in his head. Perhaps we are genetically engineered.

Many of them display the characteristics of textbook narcissism, and the “I feel bullied” is merely a narcissistic injury. Which is why the original person discussed had to keep at her “friend” for *upsetting* her.

76 Brian

A much better formulation of the statement, indeed I hope Chris Hickey will adopt it as a motto for the patients’ waiting room. Perhaps a tastefully knitted or embroidered wall hanging?

@ChemE #102,
I’m not sure if you linked to that paper because you think it is worth reading, or if you are pointing and laughing. An amateur paper that conflates correlation with causation, and has references to Wikipedia and Medical Hypotheses? Hmm. Do you think it’s possible there may be some confounding factors that are also correlated with exposure to EMR?

Funnily enough I was recently reading about how human cognition sees random clusters as meaningful. Researchers in Europe have been particularly gullible (IMO), chasing down clusters of leukemia that are near power lines, or nuclear power stations (PDF) or whatever. The best current evidence suggests that neither power lines nor nuclear power stations cause leukemia, but that hasn’t stopped a lot of people from still believing they do. I strongly suspect the autism/microwave correlation observed in that paper is a similar artifact.

@ChemE #102,
I’m not sure if you linked to that paper because you think it is worth reading, or if you are pointing and laughing.

The author of the paper is a chemical engineer. An obvious hypothesis of whom “ChemE” might be comes to mind.

AF,

The author of the paper is a chemical engineer.

I’m not a physicist, but his theory of everything seems a little unconventional to me:

After collecting 11 months of data and running p-Value statistics, I believe our Doppler Microwave Radars are reflecting/bending/ducting and attenuating off the overhead atmosphere, irradiating our children and all biology, as well as inducing decoherence in strings of vacuum overhead in jet streams, causing an increase in local ionization and decay triggering hypoxia and oxidative stress in waterways and chronic algae blooms and fish kills and possibly interfering with bees, bats, whales, dolphins (RNA Damage – Morbillivirus), increasing autism, some cancers in humans and other neurological disorders and an increase in sinkholes(ionizing/dissolving limestone) and waterspouts and other low pressure disturbances in the area around the Doppler towers.

I’m not a physicist, but his theory of everything seems a little unconventional to me:

I am a physicist — well, an astronomer with lots of physics background — and yes, his “theory of everything” is indeed unconventional. As in stark raving paranoid lunacy.

I knew another engineer who went of the rails in a strikingly similar manner. I’m not sure if he’s employed, but he’s definitely selling books about the toxic effects of EM fields.

Narad, I was going to include the cases in Québec, but I was running out of time after chasing down the Arizona link (it was not the one I remembered where the mom of the afflicted clan admitted it would have been better to vaccinate).

I also omitted the large outbreak in an Amish community after some came back from the Philippines. They did lots of catch up vaccinating.

Two thngs.
Firstly, thank you Antaeus Feldspar for your fascinating and informative comment #83.
Secondly, like others have said, Dara Berger is a whiner who doesn’t know what bullying is. Being autistic makes you a target for the vicious bullies that exist in society. I still have issues.
Whenever I leave the flat I call my home, I have a canister of pepper spray and my ASP Baton (it’s legal for private citizens in South Africa to own ASPs) on my belt. Fortunately, I’ve never had to use the latter in anger. Generally, just extending it is enough to get a would be assailant to back off. Yet I fear that one day someone will try to call my bluff only to find out that I’m not bluffing.
Dara Berger would fold like a wet blanket if she had to undergo the bullying I’ve undergone. To paraphrase Game of Thrones:
You know NOTHING, Dara Berger!

@ JP:

Well, I hope at least you’re not wandering about any more because if you live where I think you live, it has probably been freezing and dampish.

Some of us here, despite being preening, self-involved, overpaid pharma shills AND incredibly mean people, DO worry about you because writing a dissertation is not fun and games, depression is no joke and the two situations conjoined can be rather daunting.

Plus you live in a dreary, cold place which certainly doesn’t help.

At any rate, the weather here has been remarkably spring-like although drizzling as usual ( weather charts illustrate that we have nearly equal amounts of days of precipitation, cloudiness and clear). so I decided to take a drive to an odd, ancient town along a river where hippies, hipsters and gay people congregate to buy and sell art, clothes and antiques and serve or imbibe loads of fine alcohol and exotic cuisine.

It took forever to get there – my companion needed to stop to get coffee, to buy organic apples and to look at nonsense several times as I drove over 60 miles of drizzly roads with a reasonable amount of traffic – thus I became very frustrated HOWEVER

as I approached the town, driving over the rusty old bridge, the entire landscape was transformed into a fantasy of mist, rising off of the river and hanging ceremoniously in the air. People were stopping on the bridge ( you can walk or drive) to observe and photograph mystical dampness permeating the scene, rendering it wetly beautiful. Crumbling stucco facades over brick walls glistening with mist and dead, ghostly gardens of weeds, shining in the lamplight.

Then we looked at lots of weird crap and later drank and then ate amongst the heathens resident/ employed there.

I find it emotionally useful to escape from the ordinary- even if it’s just to look at stuff,drink and eat. No wonder the ancients believed that different locales had their own spirits.

TBruce #79. Some do, some don’t, and those that do don’t have the same one. Your apology is accepted.

@ Antaeus Feldspar #83. I disagree on the value of the computations, but value is a subjective assessment so reasonable people can hold different opinions. Your example of birthdays isn’t particularly relevant to the situation, but I can assure I am well acquainted with game theory and other mathematical modeling techniques. I agree they would be appropriate, but prior to making those computations, we must have some reasonable estimates of the underlying probabilities for individual static situations, which means answering the questions I asked.

You asked “why would anyone who has a sense of enlightened self-interest – or hell, even not-so-enlightened self-interest – say “I’ll just skip vaccination!” There are a number of different response to this question. One is a family history of bad reactions to the vaccine or other medical reasons. A second is a religious prohibition. Yet another is the assessment that when the risk of catching the disease is very low, it can exceed the risk of the vaccination which is also low, but not zero. Thus, it can be a net reduction in risk for those parents to skip vaccination. Of course, the risk of catching various diseases can change quite rapidly, so that is not a strategy that I would choose. All of these reasons line up with a ‘sense of enlightened self-interest’ and are not simply because they got the math wrong.

@Krebiozen #87 & @Chris #89 – Some good points regarding why vaccination is a good idea for most people. Unfortunately, none of those responses answer the question I asked regarding the difference in risk to other patients in a pediatrician’s waiting room.

@jrkrideau #107 I was looking for actual probabilities (i.e. a number between 0 and 1) not the consequences that are being risked. But thank you for your time in attempting an answer.

@ Narad:

If he is indeed Canadian why is he so concerned about Californ-I-A?
I thought I picked up something about the Maritimes once from him IIRC.
It makes me wonder if people like him can counsel clients as he says he does.

Sadmar:

I’ll assure you that I’m not flaming you and think you actually have some good points sometimes buried in your Continental-philosophical-influenced oververbiage. I would not respond to you if I thought you had nothing to say.

Here’ with the ‘agree to disagree’ matter, is another example of how the Theory people have given a playbook to the antivaxers. At last I have some insight as to why Theory people act like I’m being arrogant when I don’t want to use their jargon. There is nothing remotely smarmy or rude about using ‘agree or disagree’ or similar phrase to signal that you are uninterested in continuing the discussion. And yes, normal people do it all the time, in family, with friends, and in academic discussions. But not, apparently, by people impressed by Hegel and Jameson.

Yes, it’s a matter of conversational power dynamics. And the Continental people are past and present masters of rigging the conversation so that someone, like me, who thinks there is no value to discussions of ‘bodies without organs’ or whatever is made to look like a bad guy. So this antivaxer does the same.

The antivaxers, the postmodern right-wingers, indeed most of the current nuttiness that pervades American discourse follows the playbook supplied by the Theory people. They are the sequitor of academic postmodernism.

While traditional skepticism has not always taken account of the differing social contexts of the various pseudosciences [i.e. astrology not political threat, creationism serious political threat] it remains the only effective tool by which knowledgeable people can help us achieve a society more informed by the results of science and reason and less informed by tribal-signalling pseudoscience and hatred.

To summarize: traditional skepticism – useful tool for an informed and humane society; Theory – useful tool for those opposed to those things.

Consider the MMR? What is the probability that an unvaccinated child will be contagious for one of those diseases at some point prior to adulthood? What is the probability that a vaccinated child will be contagious for one of those diseases? Do you know or know where estimates of those risks can be found?

Why don’t you look at the tag “SSPE” on my blog and read about the horrible deaths that occurred as a result of an intentionally-unvaccinated, measles-infected child brought into a German paed’s office. That child infected infants too young to be vaccinated and are now dead.

@jrkrideau #107 I was looking for actual probabilities (i.e. a number between 0 and 1) not the consequences that are being risked. But thank you for your time in attempting an answer.

Why are the “I’m not anti-vaxx” JAQ-offs always asking others to do their homework for them? There are several studies and infographics on risk for various VPDs Beth that include reproduction rates for diseases in unvaccinated. Please avail yourself of them.

The phrase “comprised of” is never correct to usage purists despite its regular appearance in writing

http://www.businesswritingblog.com/business_writing/2015/01/comprised-of-vs-composed-of-a-test.html

Comprised of is an expression in English: X “is comprised of” Y means that X is composed or made up of Y. Its use has been disparaged by language professionals, although it is common in writing and speech.

comprising.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprised_of

Not that I’m one that can’t see the meaning for the words… just sayin’

Grammar bully, err, nazi

BTW, I just saw the most hilarious comment ever by someone named Greg on Ms. Berger’s post:

False Skeptics, I agree that Orac and his minions with their bullying are truly repugnant, and I will also add that they serve as excellent case examples of phoniness. Take for instance their commenting profile over the Thanksgiving week. Over the week, Orac posted three blogs at RI that garnered, respectively, 86, 14, and 25 comments on the 25th, 26th, and 27th. With Thanksgiving falling on the 26th, interestingly, that’s 86 comments from the previous day falling to 14 on Thanksgiving Day, and representing an 84% decline! Now, it’s natural to expect a decline in comments with each passing day, but an 84% decline?! Notice also that the comments actually rebounded on the 27th, the day after Thanksgiving.

Now if you listen to Orac and minions, they would have us believe that they operate from a personally desire to counter our ‘misinformation and dishonesty’ in regards to vaccines and autism. Supposedly, as passionate as we are in our views, so too are they in theirs. Yet, where was that passion on Thanksgiving Day?! Seems like with the occasion they saw it fit to dock some time off ‘from the office’ and have a break.

Perhaps, some may argue that it is unreasonable to expect that everyone now and again will not take time off from their routine and enjoy an holiday, including Orac and his minions. Very well then, let’s look at the commenting history here at AoA over the Thanksgiving week. In the week prior to Thanksgiving Day, five blogs were posted. They garnered 18, 16, and 16, comments, respectively, on the 25th, 26th, and 27th. Notice that the comments on Thanksgiving Day fell insignificantly from the day before, and in fact they remained the same the day after the Holiday.

Whether these peculiarities serve as incontestable proof that Orac and his minions’ motivations are not personal at all but ‘bought’, they provide an interesting contrast: They reveal that Orac and his minions can, for at least one day, kick their feet up and free their minds of concerns relating to autism and vaccines. As for the victims of their bullying, living the 24-7 autism-vaccination hell, such a mental escape remains just a pipedream for most.

Yes, Greg is arguing that because the number of comments on my posts fell dramatically on a national holiday (Thanksgiving), we must all be paid pharma shills. Never mind that the majority of my readership is from the US and that, in the decade-plus that I’ve been blogging, traffic always falls markedly on major holidays. Indeed, the three lowest traffic days of the year for me have been, quite consistently, Christmas, New Years, and Thanksgiving in that order.

I guess we must not get the whole weekend off, though, because this will be the 122nd comment on this post, which was posted on Friday morning. 🙂

That takes cynicism to a new level to think that commenters here would not want to spend time with their families during the holiday.

Btw, my recent comments have mostly been inane but I was trying to do my part on your numbers. Why, I really don’t know. As I tweeted you once, I think unique visitors is a much better metric than comment count but it seems to be something everyone is paying attention to – so here’s one more tweet towards the count.

Whoops! I mean one more comment not tweet.

Guess I don’t earn triple overtime for the holiday weekend because of that mistake.

That comment from Greg is truly inane.

Thanksgiving had nothing to do with it. Everyone knows I was at the Test Match.

More seriously, how could anyone’s brain work in such a way that not commenting on blogs on a National Holiday when most people in the US travel to visit their families is evidence that people are paid to comment?

@ Chris Preston:

” how could anyone’s brain work in such a way……..”

The same way they get from observations and research to
‘vaccines cause autism’;
‘Wakefield was framed’,
‘GMOs endanger lives’,
‘google = medical degree’

For the uninitiated, Greg was a regular feature @ RI, endlessly arguing with Orac’s minions and discussing his work- with adult autists IIRC. Eventually, he earned the rarely utilised ban hammer and was instantly relegated to the darkest, dustiest corners of cyberspace and AoA.
Where he belongs.

Well, I hope at least you’re not wandering about any more

Somehow I had never realized that the line “don’t sleep in the subway darling / don’t stand in the pouring rain” in The Jazz Butcher’s “Girlfriend” actually came from Petula Clark.

Greg is highly amusing. I *didn’t* comment on this post previously – Thanksgiving at my parents’ house was hectic, then Friday I was doing far more important things like going out with my daughter to purchase a wedding dress. (Fantastic deal, BTW…rarely shop on Black Friday, but we got the dress at 85% off as it was a sample!). Then Friday night through Saturday was traveling home. Today I’ve restocked my food supplies, put up (but not decorated yet – need more lights) the Xmas tree, and done a little cleaning.

If that means Gurgles thinks I’m getting my Big Pharma pay docked, he knows knowing about this little thing called “vacation pay”. (Besides, nothing from nothing leaves nothing…)

@ Antaeus Feldspar #83. I disagree on the value of the computations, but value is a subjective assessment so reasonable people can hold different opinions. Your example of birthdays isn’t particularly relevant to the situation, but I can assure I am well acquainted with game theory and other mathematical modeling techniques. I agree they would be appropriate, but prior to making those computations, we must have some reasonable estimates of the underlying probabilities for individual static situations, which means answering the questions I asked.

Sorry, but if you read the description I gave of the birthday paradox, and you thought it was about birthdays, I do not think you understood anything. The birthday paradox is not about birthdays any more than Schrodinger’s Cat is about the details of feline endangerment techniques.

Let me try to be more clear, at the risk of being more blunt:

If you want to get an idea of “the underlying probabilities for individual static situations,” specifically calculating how risky it is for any one person to betray the herd and free-ride on herd immunity, then you’d better get ready for a LOT of calculations. Because the answer of “how risky is it for the FIRST person who defects?” is different than the answer of “how risky is it for the SECOND,” “how risky for the fiftieth,” “how risky is it for the ten thousandth,” how risky is it for the hundred thousandth”. The answer YOU are looking for, the one you asked us about, is the one which applies to exactly ONE of several million “static situations” – and anyone who thinks they can generalize from a handful of those static situations, or even more ludicrously from ONE such static situation, is exhibiting utter cluelessness.

So if you would like to offer an explanation of why you only seem interested in one such calculation, please do.

I’m so sorry, pharma masters. I will be sure to keep my post count higher over holiday weekends as to not arouse suspicions in the future.

Der Gergle wrote

They reveal that Orac and his minions can, for at least one day, kick their feet up and free their minds of concerns relating to autism and vaccines.

. In my own case, this is true. I don’t have the monomania he attributes to the minionhood. I am also not ashamed of that.

The same way they get from observations and research to
‘vaccines cause autism’;
‘Wakefield was framed’,
‘GMOs endanger lives’,
‘google = medical degree’

Denice Walter, all of these, except the last, are just ordinary motivated reasoning. The last is Dunning-Kruger. Greg’s effort over at AOA is right out of the ballpark, down the road, around the corner and into the manhole conspiracy theorising. It is such an exceptional example of adding 1 + 1 to make 6342 that I really wonder how he does it.

From #108

“An amateur paper that conflates correlation with causation, and has references to Wikipedia and Medical Hypotheses? ”

I am an engineer, not a scientist so I thank you for the amateur comment. I make my living solving problems and sometimes engineers create new problems as a result, it creates job security.

“Hmm. Do you think it’s possible there may be some confounding factors that are also correlated with exposure to EMR?”

Sure

“I strongly suspect the autism/microwave correlation observed in that paper is a similar artifact.”

Have you done any research to base your speculation?

That Santa Monica Autism cluster has been stable for over a decade and 3% of the autistic children in the State come from that one cluster area. UC Davis and Columbia University researchers identified and verified the cluster in separate studies.

Those high gain microwave broadcast earth stations and microwave relay towers have also been the area for decades. There are 466% more microwave earth station antennas in the area of 400% more autism.

I know the difference between correlation and causation. I discuss it in the video I placed online discussing the cluster.

As for the victims of their bullying, living the 24-7 autism-vaccination hell, such a mental escape remains just a pipedream for most.

Right, because they are compelled to come here and read our unflattering opinions of their drivel. Out of curiosity, I counted the comments on the AoA posts for November 25, 26, and 27, and got 41, 4, and 16 comments, respectively. That’s a 90% decline on Thanksgiving day compared to the day before, followed by a 300% rebound the day after! So there you have it, proof positive that the commenters at AoA are being paid by Big Pharma to make antivaxxers look like a bunch of entitled, narcissistic nutcases with their heads so far up their own butts they couldn’t find their way out with a flashlight and a map. You’ve got to hand it to them, they’re doing a good job.

Out of curiosity, I counted the comments on the AoA posts for November 25, 26, and 27

I would like to extend my heartfelt gratitude for your relieving me of this chore.

There’s a recent post on the NVIC facebook page with an anonymous (of course) letter supposedly from a mom about how her pediatrician “intimidated” her into vaccinating all 3 of her children (none of whom had any adverse events from being vaccinated as she herself notes). Makes me think of the “Help I’m being repressed” line from Monty Python when this so-called mom writes:

My “research” went on a bit too long, however, for most people’s comforts. My Doctor threatened to cut off services to me and my family if I didn’t get the girls fully vaccinated within a matter of weeks. My family was barely speaking to me. My friends, I’m sure, were laughing at me when they weren’t busy dodging my communications. My life had changed, all in the matter of a few months of “past due vaccinations.” I wasn’t, however, anti-vaccination. I was more “this seems like too many vaccinations all at once.” I wasn’t someone who posted anti-vaccination news on my Facebook all day, in fact, the main reason most people knew was because I panicked over the Doctor’s threat to remove services. Word spread from there. And it was not good.

Orginal “letter” at http://www.donotlink.com/hi2o

^ “extend

I was about to change that to “express,” but that’s so wrong that I need to reconsider the original construction.

Antaeus Feldspar, # 130
In fact, Beth’s question could be framed between two extreme values, depending upon how many people are immune in a particular area.
If no-one is immune (vaccinated or having had disease), then the probability that anyone gets the bug depends on its virulence (e.g.: new strains of influenza). May be over 50%, just to say.
If everyone is immune, then the probability is very near to zero (e.g.: measles in a population with vaccine uptake more than 96%).
But in my view Beth makes a mistake when she thinks that the problem lies in attributing a value to a probability. And it would be a mistake even if she thinks that the problem lies in attributing a value to an individual preference.
The real question is: who has the right to make a choice, when the choice has consequences on other people?

Greg’s effort over at AOA is right out of the ballpark, down the road, around the corner and into the manhole conspiracy theorising.

In case anybody actually gives a rat’s ass, there’s something of a time-series yardstick.

ChemE,

I am an engineer, not a scientist so I thank you for the amateur comment. I make my living solving problems and sometimes engineers create new problems as a result, it creates job security.

I’m not an amateur claiming to know better than specialists in an area not even vaguely related to my field.

“Hmm. Do you think it’s possible there may be some confounding factors that are also correlated with exposure to EMR?”
Sure

Then why are you posting alarmist nonsense about microwaves when there is practically zero evidence for your hypothesis and even less prior plausibility.

“I strongly suspect the autism/microwave correlation observed in that paper is a similar artifact.”
Have you done any research to base your speculation?

No, but others have and they disagree with you.

That Santa Monica Autism cluster has been stable for over a decade and 3% of the autistic children in the State come from that one cluster area. UC Davis and Columbia University researchers identified and verified the cluster in separate studies.

Here’s what researchers at UC Davis have to say about it:

However, the researchers said that in this investigation the clusters probably are not correlated with specific environmental pollutants or other “exposures.” Rather, they correlate to areas where residents are more educated.

“What we found with these clusters was that they correlated with neighborhoods of high education or neighborhoods that were near a major treatment center for autism,” said senior author Irva Hertz-Picciotto, a professor of public health sciences and a researcher with the UC Davis MIND Institute.

“In the U.S., the children of older, white and highly educated parents are more likely to receive a diagnosis of autism or autism spectrum disorder. For this reason, the clusters we found are probably not a result of a common environmental exposure. Instead, the differences in education, age and ethnicity of parents comparing births in the cluster versus those outside the cluster were striking enough to explain the clusters of autism cases,” Hertz-Picciotto said.

You didn’t account for parental income, age and education. All of these are correlated with autism. What about the presence of an autism treatment center, which is known to lead to increased diagnoses in the local area?

Those high gain microwave broadcast earth stations and microwave relay towers have also been the area for decades. There are 466% more microwave earth station antennas in the area of 400% more autism.

Wouldn’t you expect there to be more microwave towers where there are more wealthy, better educated people who tend to have children later?

I know the difference between correlation and causation. I discuss it in the video I placed online discussing the cluster.

I notice you didn’t mention the ecological fallacy. Perhaps you might try looking at organic food consumption, or smartphone ownership, which I suspect would correlate just as strongly as microwave exposure. I think you are seeing patterns in noise, a popular human pastime but a phenomenal waste of time and effort.

Those high gain microwave broadcast earth stations and microwave relay towers have also been the area for decades. There are 466% more microwave earth station antennas in the area of 400% more autism.

Wouldn’t you expect there to be more microwave towers where there are more wealthy, better educated people who tend to have children later?

There was an old study on cell phone relay towers and suicide in London. The author calculated an average density of towers using the whole number of towers in the UK, missing the higher ratio of relays-to-people in London compared to the countryside. This mistake made it more likely for a suicide to happen close to a tower.

Berger has a NEW post @ AoA today, in which, amongst other observations,
she notes that someone called ‘Orac’ has written up an analysis of her post. It probably took ” 45 minutes to an hour” – and he was probably paid for his work.

*checks out the post Denise mentioned*

Feel the need to quote this

“What I thought was humorous is that I got someone on twitter really trying hard to antagonize me. But I wouldn’t budge and engage with them. “

Doesn’t that make her a bully by her own definition because is someone won’t engage her no matter how many mean emails she sends they are obviously bullying her?

Helianthus,
When EM sensitivity comes up I like to remind people of this story from South Africa in which a microwave tower was alleged to be causing continuing, “headaches, nausea, tinnitus, dry burning itchy skins, gastric imbalances and totally disrupted sleep patterns”, before it was revealed it had been turned off for the previous six weeks.

@KayMarie

No, no, no. By her own definition, a bully is someone who makes *her* feel unhappy in some way. Bullying is a one-way street, you see.

You pointing out the double-standard makes you just the *worst* kind of bully.

Denice at #23 wrote

TMR facebook announces a new documentary by Christie Dames and Kevin O’Malley, *Moms Determined*, featuring TM, Dragonslayer ( Marissa Ali) – a “quest or unite moms from around the world to help find answers to complicated medical diagnoses”

O’Malley Is the business manager for the Commonwealth Club and Chair of its Business & Leadership Forum. His wife, Christie Dames, is an chemtrail-believing activist. About the Commonwealth Club (CC):

The mission of The Commonwealth Club of California is to be the leading national forum open to all for the impartial discussion of public issues important to the membership, community and nation.

In 2013, Dames had arranged for The Thinking Moms’ Revolution mouthpieces, to give a talk as part of promoting their book — they gushed about it here:

One huge opportunity came along in the form of Christie Dames and Kevin O’Malley of The Commonwealth Club of California. Christie found TMR somehow on Facebook as she is a victim of environmental illness and never knew what to do for herself until she found the autism biomed community. Her husband, Kevin, is the business manager of the Club. Their kind invite to speak there was as shocking and exciting as anything TMR could have expected. As circumstances laid themselves out for our group, it fell to Sunshine and me to make it happen and get there. What an experience it was. San Francisco, that’s one thing, but this place . . . Who would have thought?

Back in March 2015, Dames and O’Malley scheduled Kent Heckenlively, Dr. Judy Mikovits, and Dr. Brian Hooker to give a talk at the CC, “American Whistleblowers”. Some of the other CX members got wind of the presentation, and raised pointed questions to the CX leadership about the wisdom of contaminating CC’s reputation for evidence-based advocacy by giving that trio a platform.

After some pressure, the American Whistleblowers event was cancelled. Heckenlively wrote about it at length at AoA, Commonwealth Club of California Engages in Censorship of Talk entitled, “American Whistleblowers”!.

I have reached out on several occasions to Kevin O’Malley and Christie Dames about rescheduling our talk, but they have given me no reason to believe we will ever be allowed to speak. It’s difficult when those who claim to be your friends treat you no different than your enemies. I never thought it would be necessary in my lifetime to defend free speech. I thought the right to freely express our ideas without fear of reprisal or censorship was something every American would defend to their very last breath. Sometimes it seems even our friends can forget these principles.

Sadly, CC DID host Robert F. Kennedy jr. ranting about thimerosal on April 15, but the event received very little media coverage.

The documentary “*Moms Determined” produced a trailer in 2014, available on YouTube, but nothing since. I wonder if it is stalled for lack of funding.

Chris @ 57

Yah, changing schools and being behind or ahead in subjects is a challenge. I remember going from a school where we were still filling half a page with cursive letters to a school where everything had do be written in cursive. I had to look up at the white on green sample alphabet above the chalkboard, find a letter I could recognize, and work my way to the letter I needed, follow the shape in the air, then put it on the page. Needless to say it slowed down my output.

On the flip side, I read ‘Romeo and Juliet’ 3 time in 4 high schools (in the 4th? ‘West Side Story’), so by my senior year, I knew the story cold, and knew which character to volunteer for to get out of the stupid class read thru (Murcutio, dies in the first act, but I still love the ‘wide as a church door, deep as a well’ line).

Please don’t think that I’m denying you were bullied, or that it was traumatic. I suspect that almost everyone was bullied at some point, including me, and it’s a whole lot of no fun.

But kids in small towns don’t bully everyone that have a few smarts and read books. They will bully for many other reasons, or no reason at all, as will kids in big cities. (By ‘kids’, I mean ‘people’, because it happens to adults, too.)

Simply stated, it was just your turn in the barrel.

I am not an amateur when it comes to chemical & environmental engineering, I have been executing projects for 29 years, many required EPA permitting. I have also installed antennas and radiation sensors.

“Then why are you posting alarmist nonsense about microwaves when there is practically zero evidence for your hypothesis and even less prior plausibility.”

The alarming thing is that 1/45 children now across the US have a disorder called autism. The strong correlation I show is just evidence, I guess you did not pick up on that….

“However, the researchers said that in this investigation the clusters probably are not correlated with specific environmental pollutants or other “exposures.” Rather, they correlate to areas where residents are more educated.”

The researchers never downloaded 8,000 earth station antennas from the FCC database and geocoded them in Google Earth and Python and overlayed them onto an established autism clusters across California and calculated power densities. I also included another 20 thousand or so microwave relay antennas across the US

By the way, the autism cluster map in my paper was prepared by Columbia University, not UC Davis.

The FCC database includes the transmitters, power levels and antenna gains and not just the tower locations. I am showing high gain, high EIRP transmitters. I excluded the receivers

“Wouldn’t you expect there to be more microwave towers where there are more wealthy, better educated people who tend to have children later?”

Yes, humans love their radiation

Denise and KayMarie didn’t mention that they were quoting the more sane parts of Berger’s new post. The gist of it compares likens Paul Offit to the Colorado PP shooter. and worries that ‘pro-vax’ pharma shills will resort to physical violence to cow the brave anti-vaxers.

This would be kind of funny. We could create a new term to go alongside Godwining: ‘Braying’ named after ‘Army of God’ honcho Rev.Michael Bray. The problem is, Bray’s minions have actually assasinated several physicians. Especially now that AoA is drawing alliances with the far-right fringe, it’s easy to imagine some dangerous psycho taking Berger’s analogy as a hint coded in reverse. The real violence isn’t the shooters, it’s those baby-killing abortions doctors, who, of course, are just in it for the money. If an abortion clinic is a baby-killing factory, then a pediatricians office is an infant maiming factory.

Berger may not realize it, but she just offered up a justification for fire-bombing pediatric clinics, and murdering outspoken doctors who refuse to take un-vaxed patients. Or worse, she may know exactly what she’s doing…. I’m not saying there’s any significant probability any whack job is going to for this on the basis of one post at AoA. All the trigger-folk in Army of God-type attacks only reached the point of action over a fair period of time via repetitive ‘conditioning.’

But, seriously, Chris. It might be time to start using a nym here, and laying low on the web about who and where you are. The AVers have posted lists of their most detested ‘shills’, right? If they start posting lists of ‘vaccine bully’ pediatricians, with office and home addresses attached, it’s time to buy Kevlar.

@ChemE: however, you did NOT apparently address a few important confounders: the changing in diagnostic criteria for autism/Asperger’s, the fact that there are many other things that increased during the same time period (as mentioned – the consumption of organic foods and the use of computers), and the fact that minorities tend to be underdiagnosed, but often live in the more “undesirable” parts of towns.

That means your data STILL has problems. You have to address those issues, not just blame it on microwave towers.

Also, please note that Asperger was working with autistic/Asperger’s children before WWII – how do you account for the fact he felt strongly that many children were misdiagnosed with other mental problems or not diagnosed at all?

@ Liz Ditz:

I thought that that’s who Dames was! I forgot O’Malley’s name though.
It seems that Berger is also a screenwriter, penning a tale about a parent of a child with an ASD and a documentary maker!

Similarly, both Conte and Stagliano of AoA have written fictional** accounts of ASD conspiracies starring detective alter egos: can screenplays be far away?

Films and documentaries are the new wave in altie-ville.

** like most of AoA’s material isn’t fiction.

senior author Irva Hertz-Picciotto
The professor’s surname indicates an ancestral link to the radio-communication industry; of course she found nothing!

Oh, I almost forget:
Dames interviews TMs on TMR TV. I suppose that’s where many of these documentaries and screenplays will wind up.

@sadmar: Yep, Ms. Berger’s rhetoric seems custom-made to justify violence against “pro-vaxers.” For example:

So getting back to the question of will they [pro-vaxers] ever become violent. Well I think in an indirect way they already have become violent. They are trying to force our children to take vaccinations against our will. They are trying to get our previously vaccine injured children to take more vaccines and don’t care that we feel it will put them in grave danger. They are also trying to force the siblings of this vaccine injured child to get vaccines, even though they may have the same genetic makeup and susceptibilities. Where did this all start? A couple years ago Paul Offit said that he wanted to do away with the religious exemption. He wanted the small percent of unvaccinated children to be vaccinated. Why? So he could make millions of dollars! So what did he do? He wrote a book on the subject that didn’t happen to garner the best reviews. He worked tirelessly with pharmaceutical companies and lobbyists to pay off senators and other lawmakers to get them to introduce bills such as SB 277 in California that stripped away a parents right to decide, by using their child’s education as leverage. In California, you now have to vaccinate your child in order to be able to attend a public school in 2016. Unfortunately, many families need a dual-income and may have to succumb to giving vaccines in order for their children to go to school. They may not have the ability to leave their job and move to another state. And not everybody has the ability or can afford to home school their child. Some of these children may become injured as a result. Vaccine injury is a violent act against a child especially if it is forced and without consent. Vaccine injury can leave a child with permanent brain damage. Anyone who lives with a vaccine injured child knows how absolutely devastating life after vaccine injury can be. And the pharmaceutical company who produced the vaccine offers no help and is nowhere to be found.

It’s only a short jump from this sort of rhetoric about how vaccination is “violence” against children, causing brain damage and even death, to justifying doing anything to stop it, including a little pre-emptive violence, if necessary—rhetoric very similar to anti-abortion rhetoric.

“@ChemE: however, you did NOT apparently address a few important confounders: the changing in diagnostic criteria for autism/Asperger’s, the fact that there are many other things that increased during the same time period (as mentioned – the consumption of organic foods and the use of computers), and the fact that minorities tend to be underdiagnosed, but often live in the more “undesirable” parts of towns.”

I seriously doubt 1/10,000 to 1/45 is due primarily to diagnostic criteria. Columbia researcher mentioned 60% unaccounted for.

I also seriously doubt getting educated by itself causes increased autism. That is the most foolish theory I have ever heard, next to organic foods. That is some crazy BS.

“That means your data STILL has problems. You have to address those issues, not just blame it on microwave towers.”

I am not “blaming” microwave towers, I am just saying there is a strong correlation around the Santa Monica area cluster with higher concentration of high gain microwave antennas, that is all. I also show how 14 overlapping, high gain antennas refracted/ducted off the overhead atmosphere can exceed FCC safety guidelines 8000 feet away and there are 224 in the area!

Get an education (or become a movie star), buy an expensive home on the hillsides in Hollywood and get irradiated!

Also, please note that Asperger was working with autistic/Asperger’s children before WWII – how do you account for the fact he felt strongly that many children were misdiagnosed with other mental problems or not diagnosed at all?

Humanities love for radiation began with the telegraph and radio in the late 1800s and early 1900s. We just upped the power and gain and density over the past 50 or so years.

PS, I also have good statewide statistics in Florida showing more dead fish around high gain antennas over 3 years, which is never a good thing…

@ Antaeus Feldspar #130

Yes, I am aware of the many calculations that are involved in the birthday problem and other similar situations. No, I don’t understand why you think the birthday problem is a suitable analogy. I suggest you check out comment #142 by perodatrent for a better understanding.
Regarding an explanation of “why you only seem interested in one such calculation”, it is not the only calculation I am interested in. You might want to back your assumption generator down a little. The probabilities I asked about were simply because I became curious about after reading Dr. Hickie’s comment #10 and I didn’t know any reasonable approximations for the values. I thought, given the expertise that posts here, someone else might have that knowledge or an idea of where to find it. I was apparently wrong about that.
However, with a little googling effort yesterday and a few assumptions I was able to generate an approximation of the risk computation I was interested in. While not a rigorous analysis, there was a clear reduction in risk for pediatricians like Dr. Hickie who limit their practice to patients to vaccine compliant parents. I imagine that’s not particularly illuminating for anyone else here, but I found it interesting.

@perodatrent #142. You are more correct than Mr. Feldspar regarding what I was asking about. BTW, I happen to agree with you that the more important question is who has the right to make that particular choice; it’s simply not the question being discussed at that time.

@ChemE: you say: I seriously doubt 1/10,000 to 1/45 is due primarily to diagnostic criteria. Columbia researcher mentioned 60% unaccounted for

Actually, yes. It *is* primarily due to diagnostic criteria changes. As an engineer, you should be able to read the graph that shows that as autism/asperger diagnoses increased, mental retardation/childhood schizophrenia diagnoses decreased.

Also: Please name the “Columbia researcher”. There are many people doing research at Columbia. Some of them are very good and professional. Some are not.

You still didn’t address the issue of minorities being under-diagnosed, and many people with “milder” cases not being diagnosed until adulthood.

And hey, if microwave towers can cause autism, why isn’t it likely that computers have contributed to it? Or Organic foods? or (gasp) RAP MUSIC!

@ Orac

I wrote my comment before checking SBM today. There I saw the Dr. Gorski post on AVer Tristan Wells’ “How To Debate A Pro-vaxer”, which (the SBM post) ends quoting a statement Wells made last week. “Vaccines are pure evil, and all those involved in the disgusting criminal enterprise should be executed.”

I researched The Army of God for an (aborted) TV documentary, and interviewed a couple of it’s prominent figures over the phone (not Michael Bray, though, or anyone implicated in actual violence). As individuals, both guys were basically harmless quirky ‘characters’, who wouldn’t hurt a flea, and didn’t actually want abortions doctors to be killed. (I’ll spare the complex details of their ideology/theology/intent etc.) Suffice to say that with the exception of Bray, the AoG is mainly folks you’d only cast as villains in a comedy, not a serious thriller. Several prominent pro-choice advocates have posited the existence of a doctor-shooting conspiracy – along the line of violent neo-Nazi groups – that recruits assassins, select targets and plots hits. That’s not how it works. What happens is actually scarier in a lot of ways. There are just enough truly dangerous nut jobs like Scott Roeder floating around who pick up on this stuff, that every now and then one of them acts on it on their own. That’s why I said one or two posts aren’t that worrisome. It takes a certain level of diffusion to reach the homicidal wackos, and they have to stew in the hate speech for a certain length of time before they conclude their only course is to martyr themselves ‘for the children’.

Berger and Wells are likely just early signs of a ‘disease’ that might become life-threatening if it progresses. But that’s what you have to look for, recognize, and counter before it spreads. This is serious stuff, not to be dismissed or taken lightly.

Beth, #161
Thanks for your answer. I understand you are new here. I think someone here bristles up his hair, sometimes, believing some posters are only trolling. What sometimes happens.
Really, I think someone other can happen to turn here for some bit of information, and have genuine questions. To which no one has a ready answer.

“@ChemE: you say: I seriously doubt 1/10,000 to 1/45 is due primarily to diagnostic criteria. Columbia researcher mentioned 60% unaccounted for

Actually, yes. It *is* primarily due to diagnostic criteria changes. As an engineer, you should be able to read the graph that shows that as autism/asperger diagnoses increased, mental retardation/childhood schizophrenia diagnoses decreased.

Also: Please name the “Columbia researcher”. There are many people doing research at Columbia. Some of them are very good and professional. Some are not. ”

Listen to this, the researcher is interviewed that was involved in the cluster study I mapped. He answers you question.

You still didn’t address the issue of minorities being under-diagnosed, and many people with “milder” cases not being diagnosed until adulthood.

My study only looked at a significant spatial cluster in California which happens to line up well with the broadcast antenna capital of the world!

“And hey, if microwave towers can cause autism, why isn’t it likely that computers have contributed to it? Or Organic foods? or (gasp) RAP MUSIC!”

I recommend you study those correlations.

Can you find any research papers that say microwave radiation is good for you??

So, you looked at one single variable that just so happened to have some correlation to autism diagnoses – though given the relative affluence in the area mentioned & we know that families who are more well off get their kids diagnosed at a younger age, I’d say you really need to go back to the drawing board before making such blanket statements.

My statement is that there is evidence for “increased autism due to nearby high gain transmitters of microwave radiation.”

I said evidence, not cause. I gave the evidence and then I gave a possible causation. Nothing more, nothing less. Those other items you mentioned, diagnosis, vaccines, etc have already been studied. I am looking for the other 60-75%

I have chosen not to study RAP music and organic foods because I like both of those things.

ChemE:

The alarming thing is that 1/45 children now across the US have a disorder called autism. The strong correlation I show is just evidence, I guess you did not pick up on that….

No, it is not evidence. It is *data*. You need to demonstrate a causal link, or at the very minimum rule out other explanations before you can start calling it evidence. We know radiation can cause harm (although microwave radiation is not ionizing radiation and should not be confused for it). We do not know it can cause *this* harm. So you have more work to do before you can call that evidence.

It is interesting data, and it is useful data, but it is not evidence of a link. The world is a very messy place; be wary of drawing conclusions too quickly. We also know that autism cases increase with greater access to services to treat autism — does this imply those services cause autism? That seems highly dubious, though it’s pretty reasonable that it could cause some of the increase in *diagnoses* (since, of course, people with no access to child psychologists are probably not going to be getting diagnosed by one, for fairly obvious reasons, and of course the professionals who diagnose autism are more motivated to diagnose it in potential clients).

ChemE,

I am not an amateur when it comes to chemical & environmental engineering, I have been executing projects for 29 years, many required EPA permitting. I have also installed antennas and radiation sensors.

What does any of that have to do with autism, or the effects of EM radiation on living organisms? How does expertise in those areas translate to exploring the etiology of ASDs? Do you even have a plausible mechanism EM radiation causing autism when there are countless studies showing no effects of microwaves of the frequencies used in communications (that don’t resonate water molecules) at far greater magnitudes than humans are exposed to?

The alarming thing is that 1/45 children now across the US have a disorder called autism.

Which can be explained by diagnostic changes, increased awareness and diagnostic substitution.

The strong correlation I show is just evidence, I guess you did not pick up on that….

It isn’t evidence, it’s one of probably thousands of correlations that are likely due to confounders, and we already have a plausible explanation for the increase in autism diagnoses anyway.

The researchers never downloaded 8,000 earth station antennas from the FCC database and geocoded them in Google Earth and Python and overlayed them onto an established autism clusters across California and calculated power densities. I also included another 20 thousand or so microwave relay antennas across the US

Finding more evidence of a spurious correlation that is very probably due to confounders doesn’t make it any more impressive.

By the way, the autism cluster map in my paper was prepared by Columbia University, not UC Davis.

UC Davis’ explanations for the cluster seem very plausible to me. Have you thought of ways of controlling for the confounders they mention?

The FCC database includes the transmitters, power levels and antenna gains and not just the tower locations. I am showing high gain, high EIRP transmitters. I excluded the receivers

I don’t see how that helps your case. I would still expect to see a correlation between these transmitters and better educated people who tend to have children later.

Yes, humans love their radiation

I’m amused that I have spent as much time arguing with those who are convinced that tiny doses of radiation are deadly as I have with those who argue they are beneficial.

Listen to this, the researcher is interviewed that was involved in the cluster study I mapped. He answers you question.

A six year old video of an interview with a sociologist? More recent evidence suggests that there is no autism epidemic.

My statement is that there is evidence for “increased autism due to nearby high gain transmitters of microwave radiation.”

A mere correlation is not evidence that autism is due to microwave radiation.

“What does any of that have to do with autism, or the effects of EM radiation on living organisms? How does expertise in those areas translate to exploring the etiology of ASDs? Do you even have a plausible mechanism EM radiation causing autism when there are countless studies showing no effects of microwaves of the frequencies used in communications (that don’t resonate water molecules) at far greater magnitudes than humans are exposed to?”

Actually, microwaves have shown all kinds of biological effects other than just thermal heating. Where have you been?

https://www.emfscientist.org/index.php/emf-scientist-appeal

A bunch of dumbass electrical engineers set the current safe health limit so they could sell more antennas. I have shown how 14 high gain antennas clustered together can exceed FCC safe guidelines 8000 feet away in an uncontrolled environment. There are 224 in the area

I referenced 3 papers linking autism symptoms to RF damage, you obviously have not read them.

My take on causitive effects (from an engineer’s perspective)
Oxidative stress and accelerated corrosion in electrolytes, including you and I. When warships turn on high gain radars their metal hulls corrode faster in electrolytes (salt water). Calcium is one of the most reactive and “corrodable” metals, much more reactive than steel or even zinc. 0.01 mA of DC current accelerates oxidative stress and corrosion of minerals & metals.

Antennas induce currents and electrolytes, including you!

Attack my data, the microwave data and cluster are real.

Autism Capital of California = Broadcast Microwave capital of Califdornia

Simple correlation to figure out. Matches perfectly

“It’s only a short jump from this sort of rhetoric about how vaccination is “violence” against children, causing brain damage and even death, to justifying doing anything to stop it, including a little pre-emptive violence, if necessary—rhetoric very similar to anti-abortion rhetoric.”

Both groups are very fond of Holocaust analogies – after all, a little violence and murder won’t lose you the moral high ground if your aim is to prevent the _Holocaust_. And we see, too often, where that leads.

I confess I’ve not yet read through much more than half the comments, but wanted to throw something in on AF’s #83. In your first 3-4 paragraphs, if one reads through and follows, one gets a gist of NNT and risk assessment, the latter of which is so totally deficient in the antivaccination “community.”

Completely OT, it’s why Adam Fawer’s first novel, Probability, is among my top 3 contemporary favs. (What a shame that his follow-ups have been published only in German–in which I can limp, but . . . –and Turkish and Japanese, in both of which I am totally rubbish.

With respect to what others have said about possible BPD, I kind of agree, but am uncertain (notwithstanding that we just don’t do Dx over the interwebz). It occurs to me that this thing about seeing the source of the communication problem as elsewhere gives support to the idea of locus of control. In particular, the constant victimised POV reveals an external locus, therefore relieving oneself of very much impact on, or responsibility for, the outcome. (I hate to say that, btw, ’cause “personal responsibilty.”)

I suppose there’a comfort in that, somewhere, for them, kinda like what I may misremeber as the Superman Principal (wherein while one was young, one was effectively immortal), or what “what was she wearing” victim blaming does, meaning that one may feel “safe” from a given risk, because one hasn’t the risk factor given out as wot one hasn’t got, therefore one is (or one’s children are) “safe.”

In a similar way, being able to tell oneself that there’s not strong evidence of genetic concordance (both heritable and de novo) lets one off the blame hook that must bedevil, especially as the evidence of genetic and congenital causes mounts up. It has to be reeeeally difficult to reconcile when one has three kids, all autistic, the youngest of which was never vaccinated, fer instance.

They also fail to recognise that the only person blaming them (and/or seeking to defend them from blame), is them, I think.

*Again OT, I mentioned to my son, a special ed teacher (and awesome musician and all sorts of other cool things) that my brother, who has some commo deficits, that he’d pointed out to me that I must have “some communication difficulties,” because I never understand him. My son cracked up, understanding that what happens (and is frequently underscored) is that I value and respect what he needs or wants to say such that I will confirm whether I’ve got it, and work to clarify that what he meant is wot I heard. (Harder for him.)

Ren,

To answer your question, enough. A few billion watts of EIRP microwave radiation centered over that autism cluster with 224+ overlapping high gain antennas. Is that enough? 1/45 kids, is that enough? How much do you need? Focus on the data.

PS, I also have good statewide statistics in Florida showing more dead fish around high gain antennas over 3 years, which is never a good thing…

Oh, c’mon, don’t sell yourself short:

Our wireless revolution is killing our seabirds and marine life by placing a chronic voltage potential on the surface of our conductive oceans and waterways and inducing electrical currents. Electromagnetic radiation from radars, microwave broadcast towers and cell towers are shocking the marine life near the surface of the waterways along our coastlines. 0.01 amps can damage skin over time and 0.1 amps can stop the heart. WE ARE SHOCKING OUR MARINE LIFE NEAR THE COASTLINES

Is that enough? 1/45 kids, is that enough? How much do you need? Focus on the data.

No it’s not enough and you need a lot more to establish any viable correlation. What others keep trying to explain to you is that you don’t control for the numerous confounding variables to see if your observation is real or not. What statistical model are you using or should use to do this? Also consider there are a few epidemiologists here hence the question.

ChemE @175 — BILLION watts? That’s equivalent to the output a large nuclear power plant. There’s no way there’s that much microwave power being radiated.

I have chosen not to study RAP music and organic foods because I like both of those things.

To be fair to ChemE, most of the cranks that show up here with off-the-wall ideas aren’t so up-front about the fact that their “research” is motivated by their own personal prejudices.

For example, LA County has approx 14.5 billion watts of EIRP radiation in the overhead atmosphere from pulsed radars and high gain microwave earthstations. That does not include all of the point to point microwave relay towers pointed over the area. The area of the autism cluster has the highest microwave power density in LA by a factor of 5. All of those beams undergo anaprop
http://www.radartutorial.eu/07.waves/wa17.en.html

Electrical engineers have used our atmosphere as a conductor and assume placing nature and humans under a chronic voltage potential is good for us. 0.01 mA DC (0.00001 Amps) accelerates corrosion (oxidative damage) to calcium and other minerals like magnesium

“What others keep trying to explain to you is that you don’t control for the numerous confounding variables to see if your observation is real or not”

The observation is real. Other than diagnosis, pollution and weather, the only other possible confounders I can think of are that area produces a lot of bad movies and TV shows…

The observation is real. Other than diagnosis, pollution and weather, the only other possible confounders I can think of are that area produces a lot of bad movies and TV shows…

In other words, you don’t have the foggiest idea of how to actually design a study, collect data, assign the appropriate statistical model and control for confounding variables. Colour me surprised.

If you happen to be in the refracted focused beam of the microwave radiation from the parabolic dishes

Good L-rd. Do you even know what refraction means?

Oh, wow, I had never ever heard of Ted Twietmeyer before. I actually thought this had to be a parody that had slipped through (seriously, just skip down to the images), but a quick check strongly suggests that it’s real.

This is way better than ChemE.

ChemE: What the heck is a “refracted focused beam”?

The total number of hits from a search for “refracted focused beam” on DuckDuckGo, Google, Bing, Wikipedia, and (just for the heck of it) twitter is zero. Nothing. The cube root of fuck-all.

Vicki: What the heck is a “refracted focused beam”?

Vicki, it is known as “ducting” or “super refraction” of a beam of radiation:

If the atmospheric condition that causes superrefraction bends the beam equal to or more than the earth’s curvature then a condition called ducting, or trapping, occurs. Ducting often leads to false echoes also known as anomalous propagation or simply AP.

http://www.srh.weather.gov/srh/jetstream/doppler/beam_max.htm
http://www.radartutorial.eu/07.waves/wa17.en.html

I call it “electrical engineers hosing you with radiation” x 224 overlapping high gain antennas.

I showed in my paper where 14 antennas in a group exceed the FCC safe limit for uncontrolled areas 8000′ away (along the path of the beam)

Here is another hint: What transmits millions of watts of EIRP radiation, refracts off the atmosphere and irradiates you?

The Sun?

Science Mom

“In other words, you don’t have the foggiest idea of how to actually design a study, collect data, assign the appropriate statistical model and control for confounding variables. Colour me surprised.”

I love it how humans resort to insults and attack people. I have collected so much data over the past 3 years your head would spin.

I am actually building a non isotropic radiation power density model that predicts where radiation and disease will be highest

So far it is pointing to droves of dead fish and dissolved coral reefs (CaCO3 corrosion) around high power, high gain antennas.

http://darkmattersalot.com/2014/01/12/florida-2/

I have other folks smarter than me looking at confounders.

I love it how humans resort to insults and attack people. I have collected so much data over the past 3 years your head would spin.

What good is it if it isn’t the right data and you don’t have a clue of how to analyse it?

I have other folks smarter than me looking at confounders.

You are admitting that you haven’t controlled for those variables but still make definitive statements about your “evidence” which is easily just noise. And if you are admitting you aren’t smart enough to conduct a proper study then what exactly are you doing?

“And if you are admitting you aren’t smart enough to conduct a proper study then what exactly are you doing?”

Teaching you guys about how radiation is bad for you and vaccinations are good for you

The “noise” in my data is 14.5 Billion EIRP watts of confounding microwave radiation to those that think autism is a result of going to college and getting educated and buying a home on the hillside and having children and taking them to the doctor and getting them vaccinated.

Smart dumb people get smart people to help them. I did that two years ago.

Smart dumb people get smart people to help them. I did that two years ago.

Given that you just blundered spectacularly again, demonstrating that you don’t even know what confounding variables are, I’d say you’re still wallowing in the dumb part and refusing help from smart people.

Hey Mom,

Confounding variables (aka third variables) are variables that the researcher failed to control, or eliminate, damaging the internal validity of an experiment.

Example: Researching moms failed to consider a 14.5 billion watt EIRP plume of radiation emanating from the Santa Monica area as their blonde bimbo cheerleader blamed Autism on vaccinations.

I bet you even know what hormesis is…

. I have collected so much data over the past 3 years your head would spin.

I doubt it would qualify as data in any statistical sense of the word. It sounds like you’ve simply been getting measurements of stuff – whether meaningful or not – and looking for correlations. One of the first things we teach students – even freshmen – is that if you have any collection of numbers, then if it is large enough you’ll find all sorts of correlations to be significant, even though they are representative of nothing. If you really are an engineer, did you fail the basic stat classes you had?

“If you really are an engineer, did you fail the basic stat classes you had?”

My radiation model is now getting good enough now that I can predict cancer clusters. I have done simulation and modeling of chemical systems, power systems and solar thermal plants for 29 years

http://darkmattersalot.com/2014/11/01/wow/

Here is a good research paper that explains what my radiation model is predicting.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21716201

Since electrons are fermions, when you increase electromagnetic radiation in an area, you increase uncertainty, (Pauli exclusion principal) and increase disease rates due to increased oxidative stress (corrosion) in minerals in electrolytes.

If your model is now getting good enough that you can predict cancer clusters, what confounders have you controlled for? Or are you claiming the radiation you’re tracking is the sole cause for cancer?

Or is that the job of them smarter folks at some future point?

And about ten more.
For example, I learned that I lived in a county which has extremely high longevity for women. What are some of the factors that may contribute to that? Might factors like that affect the outcome of any research about radiation etc?

The other smarter folks have been looking at the data since early last year, including confounders.

The database I put together includes 2000+ high power, high gain pulsed microwave radars and 8000+ high gain microwave earth station antennas. I have also mapped microwave relay towers (from a separate database. Microwave frequencies appear to be more biologically active than RF frequencies based upon my research

I am telling you that, based upon my studies and modeling and mapping of existing clusters of autism and some cancers, high power density/high gain microwave radiation is most likely the primary cause of the 75% unidentified triggers of autism and associated mutations.

Actually the root cause is electrical engineers if you want to blame somebody.

Now why don’t you scientists get off your butts and prove me wrong.

You can download my google earth microwave database from:

http://googleearthcommunity.proboards.com/thread/750/microwave-radar-earthstation-locations

And microwave relay towers from:
http://fccinfo.com/fccinfo_google_earth.php

It also includes AM/FM/Cell towers from the FCC database.

My radiation model is now getting good enough now that I can predict cancer clusters

Color me unconvinced. If your model predicts the existence of the ‘clusters’ in your collected data, that means nothing. If your model ‘predicts’ which have been previously unknown – I don’t believe you. The fact that you believe something to be a cluster doesn’t make it one.

My question still stands.

Confounding variables (aka third variables) are variables that the researcher failed to control, or eliminate, damaging the internal validity of an experiment.

Example: Researching moms failed to consider a 14.5 billion watt EIRP plume of radiation emanating from the Santa Monica area as their blonde bimbo cheerleader blamed Autism on vaccinations.

Excellent, you looked up the definition of confounding variable but still fail to actually utilise it in your study analyses or even hypothesis.

I bet you even know what hormesis is…

Now why would you think that Radar?

Now why don’t you scientists get off your butts and prove me wrong.

You really don’t get this science thing do you? You have to prove your own hypothesis first…you have yet to do that.

From Mom:

Excellent, you looked up the definition of confounding variable but still fail to actually utilize it in your study analyses or even hypothesis.

Revised Hypothesis: Microwave radiation increases autism near high gain, high power density transmitters. Confounders such as education level, income level, vaccinations were considered but found to be so outlandish and clueless that they were dismissed in their entirety early on in the study

Confounders such as education level, income level, vaccinations were considered but found to be so outlandish and clueless that they were dismissed in their entirety early on in the study

You are indicating the answer to my stat class question.

ChemE,

Confounders such as education level, income level, vaccinations were considered but found to be so outlandish and clueless that they were dismissed in their entirety early on in the study

Good grief! You can’t dismiss confounders just because you don’t like them! There are several confounding factors that you need to take into account, parental age and educational level for example, as well as various lifestyle factors, that most definitely correlate with autism. Look at any epidemiological study on autism and you will find that these are controlled for, otherwise you end with the sort of nonsense Hooker produced that has led to the CDC whistleblower debacle.

Are you saying that senior author Irva Hertz-Picciotto, a professor of public health sciences and a researcher with the UC Davis MIND Institute was clueless when he wrote:

“What we found with these clusters was that they correlated with neighborhoods of high education or neighborhoods that were near a major treatment center for autism, […] In the U.S., the children of older, white and highly educated parents are more likely to receive a diagnosis of autism or autism spectrum disorder. For this reason, the clusters we found are probably not a result of a common environmental exposure. Instead, the differences in education, age and ethnicity of parents comparing births in the cluster versus those outside the cluster were striking enough to explain the clusters of autism cases,” Hertz-Picciotto said.

The professor is saying that education, age and ethnicity were confounding factors that explained the correlation, not an environmental factor such as being irradiated by microwaves, in case it wasn’t clear.

With all this wonderful and conclusive data, why is eng here instead of busily preparing papers for publication? Perhaps for some free consulting from people who know lots and point out deficiencies in his work?

Todd,
That’s precisely what the UC Davis researchers found (from the article I linked to above):

Most of the areas, or clusters, are in locations where parents have higher-than-average levels of educational attainment. The other clusters are located close to major autism treatment centers.

I suppose that’s “outlandish” too.

“Are you saying that senior author Irva Hertz-Picciotto, a professor of public health sciences and a researcher with the UC Davis MIND Institute was clueless when he wrote:

“What we found with these clusters was that they correlated with neighborhoods of high education or neighborhoods that were near a major treatment center for autism, […] In the U.S., the children of older, white and highly educated parents are more likely to receive a diagnosis of autism or autism spectrum disorder. For this reason, the clusters we found are probably not a result of a common environmental exposure. ”

I did not say he was “clueless”. I will say he was ignorant of the power density of microwave radiation emanating from those cluster areas. Hollywood Hills is the high gain broadcast microwave antenna capital of the world. Duh

Older people will get more radiation over time in the area of transmitters and more oxidative damage to cells

Educated/higher income people buy homes on the hillsides and get more radiation in the Hollywood Hills

https://sdsimonson.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/santa-monica-autism-mw.png

https://sdsimonson.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/hw2.png

@Krebiozen

Didn’t refresh before I posted, but yeah. That’s a big variable to account for when talking about proximity and clusters.

doug December 1, 2015

“With all this wonderful and conclusive data, why is eng here instead of busily preparing papers for publication? Perhaps for some free consulting from people who know lots and point out deficiencies in his work?”

I make a good living doing engineering and all of my work is already published, and not locked up behind some paywall., so what else do I need?

I like solving problems, not writing research papers. Plus, I do not have access to the human health statistics, only transmission sources, so others are looking at that. I have just mapped known clusters vs. my radiation model and transmitter location database.

I do have good statistics on dead fish around high gain antennas in Florida on my blog though

“The professor is saying that education, age and ethnicity were confounding factors that explained the correlation, not an environmental factor such as being irradiated by microwaves, in case it wasn’t clear.”

The Columbia researchers say different and that 60-75% is unaccounted for, which my maps imply is primarily high gain radiation

I also mapped Autism clusters in LaJolla, Fresno, San Francisco and Minneapolis that match up well with high microwave EMF environmental load areas

I like solving problems, not writing research papers. Plus, I do not have access to the human health statistics, only transmission sources, so others are looking at that. I have just mapped known clusters vs. my radiation model and transmitter location database.

You mean that you’re afraid to have your work peer-reviewed else it’ll harsh your buzz eh? And if you don’t have access to the most important data to analyse then how are you coming to your conclusion? Who are these “others looking at that” and where is their work? It sounds an awful lot like you are making pathetic excuses for your woeful inadequacies after the fact.

ChemE,

I did not say he was “clueless”. I will say he was ignorant of the power density of microwave radiation emanating from those cluster areas. Hollywood Hills is the high gain broadcast microwave antenna capital of the world. Duh

You said that the confounders the professor says are probably responsible for the cluster you are so excited about are “outlandish and clueless”, which seems to me to be much the same thing. It also seems to me that your ignorance of the etiology of autism, epidemiology, statistics and complete dismissal of well-known confounders merits a “duh”, not the professor.

Older people will get more radiation over time in the area of transmitters and more oxidative damage to cells

That’s true for all causes of oxidative damage, which is why it is a confounder.

Educated/higher income people buy homes on the hillsides and get more radiation in the Hollywood Hills

Educated people are more likely to seek medical advice if their child is not developing as they think they should, and are more likely to get an autism diagnosis as a result. This is well-established in the literature. Similarly, those living near an autism treatment center are more likely to consider an autism diagnosis, and those with an autistic child may be more likely to move to an area with a center.

I don’t think anyone mentioned the UK studies that found almost identical prevalence of autism in the UK in both children and adults, which strongly suggests that autism prevalence is not increasing. It also strongly argues against microwaves as a cause of autism – I’m pretty sure UK adults were not exposed to a great deal of microwave radiation in utero or as children.

Various strands of converging evidence point to a prenatal origin of autism. It seems unlikely to me that microwave radiation could cause problems when the fetus is shielded by amniotic fluid and the mother’s body. If something environmental is partly to blame I would look for something that can affect the mother systemically e.g. a chemical or a virus, the way that valproate and rubella do.

The Columbia researchers say different and that 60-75% is unaccounted for, which my maps imply is primarily high gain radiation

The first author of the Columbia study writes:

The study does not attempt to identify the cause of autism—a much debated topic—but it suggests that increased prevalence is spurred by local variables, such as environmental toxins or social influences. In the case of West Hollywood, social influences might include increased awareness of autism, decreased stigma associated with the disorder, or increased number of local advocacy groups, said Soumya Mazumdar, a postdoctoral research scholar at Columbia’s Institute for Social and Economic Research and Policy (ISERP) and the study’s first author.

Those social influences are known confounders, and there is no known mechanism for microwave radiations causing autism.

I also mapped Autism clusters in LaJolla, Fresno, San Francisco and Minneapolis that match up well with high microwave EMF environmental load areas

Several things that we know correlate with autism are also likely to be associated with lots of microwaves. You still don’t seem to grasp this.

“To answer your question, enough. A few billion watts of EIRP microwave radiation centered over that autism cluster with 224+ overlapping high gain antennas. Is that enough? 1/45 kids, is that enough? How much do you need? Focus on the data.”

Judging from your answer, not enough. You keep having issues of confounding, surviellance bias, recall bias, diagnostic bias, and so on and so forth. And you keep telling us to “focus on the data” instead of clarifying how your conclusion addresses all of these. If I were to go up before my thesis committee with this, they would laugh at me until the cows came home.

Don’t be lazy. Explain it all using good Epi or call it a wrap and go home. Your “research” has issues a priori which you either don’t want to address or can’t, cancelling out (or at the very least calling into question) your conclusions.

Finally, come on, man! Radio waves lack the intensity to cause any kind of damage at a cellular level at the distances and strengths you’re talking about. It’s not like we’re full of circuits that can be affected by radio. (You call it radiation to scare us, but it’s just plain old radio waves. It’s not gamma rays coming out of plutonium.)

Confounders such as education level, income level, vaccinations were considered but found to be so outlandish and clueless that they were dismissed in their entirety early on in the study

“Confounders, I fart in your general direction!”

Sadmar,

Didn’t they find a common thread that most of these nut jobs are seeking notoriety and relavance in a society that ignores them until they do something vile?

ChemE was more entertaining when he was going on about the dummy radar towers whose existence he could deduce to preserve the hypothesis. And their power to cause waterspouts and to dissolve limestone. The whole scenario was reminiscent of “Crystal World”-era Ballard, but it showed promise.

“You mean that you’re afraid to have your work peer-reviewed else it’ll harsh your buzz eh?

Many engineers (I work with 500) have reviewed my work and think I am right. You are welcome to review/criticize my work if you dare stoop so low (wait, you already have)

“And if you don’t have access to the most important data to analyse then how are you coming to your conclusion? ”

I have taken existing, peer reviewed, very important cluster studies and overlayed and correlated with my radiation model containing over 10,000 high gain, high power antennas. That saves me a lot of time as I am an underfunded research garage outfit. Clusters correlate really well with my database: 466% higher radiation in an area of 400% more autism.

Hey I just thought of another Confounder in California, tattoos….

Who are these “others looking at that” and where is their work?

Mom, I can’t tell you who, but a peer review manuscript for academic types will be published. Grammar will be much better than mine, containing many more words with more syllables, confounders and conspirators will be identified as well as good techie stuff like uW/cm2,W/m2, dBi, EIRP, etc… Some results may surprise or dismay, I am really not sure.

But if I do look around at other autism studies that show a strong genetic mutation/environmental link I would start here:

http://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1003518

“It sounds an awful lot like you are making pathetic excuses for your woeful inadequacies after the fact.”

Now to me, VaxMom appears to be a “bit insulting” but there is something I still like about her…

I told you guys I was just a measly engineer with too much time on his hands.

Thanks for your continued interest.

All I need to know is whether or not you typed this with a straight face. It will answer everything for me and then I can get on with my afternoon. Please reply.

Many engineers (I work with 500) have reviewed my work and think I am right.

“ChemE was more entertaining when he was going on about the dummy radar towers whose existence he could deduce to preserve the hypothesis. And their power to cause waterspouts and to dissolve limestone. ”

BTW, I can go on Amazon and buy a pulsed electromagnetic water conditioner that dissolves limestone (CaCO3)

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003Z96GR4?psc=1

It gets 4 stars!!!!

What is even more impressive is if you pulse 30 million watts of microwave radiation over a coral reef 2000 feet below, it dissolves it too!

http://www.kkcr.org/archive/ht101915.mp3

Impressive!

Delphine by the fireplace
December 1, 2015
“All I need to know is whether or not you typed this with a straight face. It will answer everything for me and then I can get on with my afternoon. Please reply.

Many engineers (I work with 500) have reviewed my work and think I am right.”

I am …speechless.

“Autism is an engineering problem, not a biology problem, that is why the scientists can’t figure it out.”

You guys see that leopard seal laughing at you, right? You have had like 80 years to figure it out and people are still making blogs about vaccines and autism! Too Funny!

Many engineers (I work with 500) have reviewed my work and think I am right. You are welcome to review/criticize my work if you dare stoop so low (wait, you already have)

Who have about as much epidemiology/stats knowledge as you have no doubt.

I have taken existing, peer reviewed, very important cluster studies and overlayed and correlated with my radiation model containing over 10,000 high gain, high power antennas. That saves me a lot of time as I am an underfunded research garage outfit. Clusters correlate really well with my database: 466% higher radiation in an area of 400% more autism.

Bemoaning your lack of funding is no excuse for sloppy work. I’m glad you have a day job…keep it.

Mom, I can’t tell you who, but a peer review manuscript for academic types will be published. Grammar will be much better than mine, containing many more words with more syllables, confounders and conspirators will be identified as well as good techie stuff like uW/cm2,W/m2, dBi, EIRP, etc… Some results may surprise or dismay, I am really not sure.

Oh yea! Another Super Sekrit blockbuster paradigm-shifting study in the works by (undoubtedly) the world’s most eminent scientists.

You guys see that leopard seal laughing at you, right?

I did and I shot the bastard with my dummy radar tower.

An engineer, a statistician, and a physicist are out hunting. They spot a buck, and each take turn to try and bag it.
The physicist goes first. He pulls out his lab book and quickly calculates the trajectory of the bullet, assuming it is a perfect sphere in a vacuum. The bullet falls 20m short of the deer.
The engineer goes second. He pulls out his engineers pad and book of projectile assumptions. After a few minutes he’s ready, he takes aim, and he fires. The bullet lands 20m past the deer.
The statistician leaps in the air shouting, “We got it!”

Oh yea! Another Super Sekrit blockbuster paradigm-shifting study in the works by (undoubtedly) the world’s most eminent scientists.

PLEASE DEAR GOD NOT A BOOK!! OH PLEASE WHATEVER YOU DO NO BOOK PLEASE NO!!!

@ Delphine:

Ha ha.

But you DO know what they say about engineers and autism?
And aren’t we at RI familiar with other engineer-theorists?

Yes, yes we are. Do not speak its name, please.

Look Denice, right now, I’m just having horrible flashbacks to when RFK Jr. threatened to write a book. There’s another one who doesn’t know his arse from hole in the ground who threatened to put it on paper and…he did and…my eyes have been opened.

They’re going to close soon though, just as soon as I take another hit of this awesome Nyquil.

Many engineers (I work with 500) have reviewed my work and think I am right.

So people with whom you work and associated, and with whom you share multiple thoughts and views in common, agree with your hack bit of “statistics”.

You don’t realize how stupid that is do you?

@ Delphine:

If you are truly having flashbacks, it’s helpful to:
-keep blinking your eyes
-focus on something real which is on your field of vision
-chant / sing- “it’s not real”
-go with the flow, ’cause you just never know

-btw- there are MUCH better potions than Nyquil

So, checking out this author’s other “work” it is now painfully obvious why engineers fall prey to quackery (or in this case, full-blown science fiction as reality)……

I am awaiting the arrival of Mr. Delphine in another hour or so with something better than Nyquil. Delphinette is in my care and I honestly feel too ill to make it to the pharmacy, esp. with her in tow.

Potentially a very stupid question, but are flashbacks really a true thing? Pretty sure my father had them as an adult, triggered by fireworks (bombs falling). I know I know, if only there existed some sort of tool on my computer, some type of search mechanism…

Since electrons are fermions, when you increase electromagnetic radiation in an area, you increase uncertainty, (Pauli exclusion principal)

Jeezums, I’m glad the coffee’s not ready yet.

ChemE, please stop embarrassing us engineers.

Many engineers (I work with 500) have reviewed my work and think I am right.

But this is isn’t engineering you’re asking them to review. (By the way, I did notice your little bait-and-switch there, where you imply that you have 500 people review your work with the irrelevant statement that you work with 500 engineers, but don’t actually say how many reviewed your work.) You know engineers should not review outside their area of expertise, right? Basic engineering ethics, there. I’m a software engineer; you don’t want me peer reviewing a circuit design or, god forbid, a chemical process you’ve developed. Sure, I took a semester of Organic Chemistry, but that hardly would qualify me for that.

You need to get people with relevant expertise to review your work. Don’t get ChemEs to review your work. Get epidemiologists, physicists specializing in microwaves, neurologists, developmental psychologists specialising in autism, these sorts of people. It’s not a proper review otherwise. It is, at best, a bunch of engineers speculating outside their area of expertise.

ChemE: “Plus, I do not have access to the human health statistics,…”

So you can’t be bothered to go to a library at your local university? Or you don’t understand demographics as confounding factors? Which is it?

ChemE: “Many engineers (I work with 500) have reviewed my work and think I am right.”

That is hilarious. I echo Calli Arcale’s request that you stop embarrassing engineers.

There is an occasional theme here about engineers who think they can do science that they were not trained in. One classic chemical engineer is Andy Cutler, who is really big on chelating kids with autism. Another engineer that whose bad science and statistics is the biochemical engineer Brian Hooker.

Your appeal to the authority of engineers does not impress the engineers who post on this blog, especially me, a former aerospace engineer. I did structural dynamics, which involves a bit of statistics. Though the level of statistics paled compared to those used with biomedical data. This is where Brian Hooker tripped up spectacularly. I know my limits, perhaps it is time you learned yours.

Krebiozen:

Todd,
That’s precisely what the UC Davis researchers found (from the article I linked to above):

Most of the areas, or clusters, are in locations where parents have higher-than-average levels of educational attainment. The other clusters are located close to major autism treatment centers.

I suppose that’s “outlandish” too.

I think he misunderstands our objection. Earlier, he asked how more education could possibly cause autism. He’s ruling things like this out because in his mind, it’s outlandish that they could cause autism.

But that’s not what we’re saying. We’re saying they could cause increased *diagnosis*. He’s thinking confounders have to be things that could also cause autism, which means he’s a step ahead of himself. It’s not about other things that could cause autism, it’s about other things that could cause the statistics that we’re seeing.

In one’s list of possible confounders, one must always remember this one: your data may be wrong, or at least incomplete. Using autism diagnoses as a proxy for actual incidence of autism is reasonable, but has a crucial weakness.

Consider murder rates. If a newspaper article says the murder rate went down, does that mean the police are doing a better job of keeping us safe? Well, maybe. But what are we using as a proxy for the murder rate? We’re probably looking at the arrest rate. That could go down because the police were doing such a good job that all the murderers are lying low, or it could mean they’re doing such a terrible job that nobody catches them. We don’t really know which, and this data can’t tell us.

That’s what ChemE is missing. The data he’s using can’t tell him if it’s deficient. He’s using the diagnosis rate as a proxy for the incidence rate, and oblivious to the distinction.

dean
December 1, 2015

“Many engineers (I work with 500) have reviewed my work and think I am right.
So people with whom you work and associated, and with whom you share multiple thoughts and views in common,

Actually I disagree with electrical engineers much of the time and I work with 100 of them.

What concerns me is that with one NEXRAD radar, they pulse the equivalent of 32 billion watts of EIRP radiation 500 times a second and they don’t know where it is all going!!:
http://www.srh.weather.gov/srh/jetstream/doppler/beam_max.htm
How do we know the path of the beam all times?
Aside from when AP is seen on the radar, we don’t! To know the path of the beam would require us to know the exact composition of the moisture, temperature and pressure in the atmosphere, up to 70,000 feet, every minute or so, within about 240 miles of the radar and that capability does not exist.

I guess you guys are OK with that? I think I know where the electrons are going

” and agree with your hack bit of “statistics. You don’t realize how stupid that is do you?”

I used to be smarter

I have this beautiful non-isotropic radiation model which I can enter dish angle and cloud ceiling and power feed and gain and it computes a radiation profile striking the ground (which incidentally can be 3 times higher a few miles away from the dish transmitter than directly around it (see “cone of silence” – not Get Smart) It can then process and compute the overlapping refracted power density of 10,000 high gain antennas within 30 seconds across the US. It then uses that power density for any point in the US to create maps and data tables that I can than run statistics against incidences of diseases(geocoded with lat/lon and FIPS codes) and my python routine spits out P-values for null hypotheses. It is a beautiful thing I must say. It has led me to correlations with unusual mortality events of stranded dolphins and whales and manatees and dead fish and dissolved coral reefs and autism clusters and cancer clusters and I feel so fortunate I can share it with you guys who are so appreciative.

Let me ask a simple question. How come nobody has checked electromagnetic radiation power density against autism and cancer clusters. Why such a waste of bandwidth and money on Vaccines?

Get epidemiologists, physicists specializing in microwaves, neurologists, developmental psychologists specialising in autism, these sorts of people.

Actually, the local ARRL section would probably suffice.

“How come nobody has checked electromagnetic radiation power density against autism and cancer clusters.”

Because of the sixth Bradford-Hill Criterion, which I’m sure you’re aware of being as how you were taught “enough” epidemiology and all.

I guess you guys are OK with that? I think I know where the electrons are going

Electrons don’t “go” anywhere in EM propagation.

“Electrons don’t “go” anywhere in EM propagation.”

Next, you’ll tell me that photons don’t have mass.

EM Waves (from radars and antennas) create electrical currents in conductors/electrolytes

Definition: Electromagnetic induction (or sometimes just induction) is a process where a conductor placed in a changing magnetic field (or a conductor moving through a stationary magnetic field) causes the production of a voltage across the conductor. This process of electromagnetic induction, in turn, causes an electrical current – it is said to induce the current.

You and the ocean are the conductor

I used to be smarter

It would be hard to have been worse off.

You are looking at huge amounts of “data” you collected, ignoring the things you don’t think are important (despite the fact that the scientists who study this say otherwise), searching for random correlations, and claiming that your results are valid because some of your pals think your work looks good. You won’t bother to look at existing research studies because you know they are wrong. You won’t talk to experts in the field you’re trying to comment on, and you won’t bother trying to present your work to have it reviewed.

That doesn’t pass any test for validity in basic statistics or scientific research, let alone do the things you claim it does.

Sixth Bradford-Hill Criterion:

Plausibility: A plausible mechanism between cause and effect is helpful (but Hill noted that knowledge of the mechanism is limited by current knowledge).[1]

Autism and EMF? Plausibility of a pathophysiological link – Part I
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0928468013000370
Part II
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0928468013000382

Martha Rocks!

RF Radiation accelerates oxidative stress and corrosion rates as it inducers electrical currents in conductors and electrolytes

https://skyvisionsolutions.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/reference-information-for-rf-induced-corrosion2.pdf

ChemE @247: ” How come nobody has checked electromagnetic radiation power density against autism and cancer clusters.”

How about *you* tell us what the mechanism of action is? And how in some places this radiation causes autism and in other places the *same* kind of radiation causes cancer?

Let me ask a simple question. How come nobody has checked electromagnetic radiation power density against autism and cancer clusters I haven’t gone outside with a field strength meter?

FTFY.

He’s thinking confounders have to be things that could also cause autism, which means he’s a step ahead of himself. It’s not about other things that could cause autism, it’s about other things that could cause the statistics that we’re seeing.

Exactly, ChemE thinks that the various confounding variables we have listed for him are independent variables. Nothing terribly surprising that he is digging his heels in; we’ve seen it with pretty much every crank and their hare-brained hypotheses who think they’ve indentified autism aetiology.

Narad “December 1, 2015
P.S. What does the presence of the round things signify?”

Could somebody please help Narad out…

Narad, here is a hint:

[Picture of EMC teleport]

The correct answer was “relay station.”

Here is another hint: What transmits millions of watts of EIRP radiation, refracts off the atmosphere and irradiates you?

Not those.

What transmits millions of watts of EIRP radiation

ChemE’s entire bait-&-switch is based on treating a unidirectional, intermittent energy source as if the same flux of energy were coming from all directions, continually (possibly blinded by the “equivalent” in EIRP).
In the real world, fortunately, a laser pointer will not vaporise a blackboard.

Well, there is a slight problem that EIRP is a meaningless statistic, given that the beams are going every which way, and that at microwave frequencies the refraction of the atmosphere is tiny.

To all my biomed and medical statistics oriented commentariat friends out there: the physics is just as bad as the epidemiology.

Please proceed.

“Real crop circle patterns (reflecting plasma/heat/magnetic damage) may actually be triggered from dark matter and energy, passing through Earth. In this case, dark matter can be both beautiful and deadly. Are some of these intricate patterns actually trying to tell us something? (Yes)”
(from the Honey, They Cooked the Kids Illustrated Ebook)

It’s a mighty fine book you’ve written, full of wisdom and insight, for sure. I’m curious to hear your thoughts on what the patterns are trying to tell us as they pass through our planet.

@gaist

Not only is he an expert on biology and epidemiology, he’s also an astrophysicist? Is there anything ChemE isn’t an expert on?

I think he misunderstands our objection. Earlier, he asked how more education could possibly cause autism…but that’s not what we’re saying. We’re saying they could cause increased *diagnosis*

In a sense, advanced education could be considered an indirect cause of autism because people pursuing advanced education often put off having children until later in life, and advanced parental age is a known risk factor. Of course, there’s also the “assorted mating” hypothesis – if you get enough highly-educated people in one place, they’re likely to have higher-than-average rates of autism-like traits that likely share a genetic basis with ASD, such that when they interbreed they produce offspring with higher-than-average rates of ASDs. I’m not totally sure I buy that, but it’s an interesting thought. Anyway, my point is that its not totally impossible that some of these clusters could actually have higher rates of ASDs than the general population, but there would still be more plausible explanations than ChemE’s hypothesis.

I’m reminded of a comment by a friend who’s a 6th grade teacher. They do a lot of bullying education in middle school. On the days after they cover that unit she gets a stream of complaints along the lines of “Ms. G, I’ve been bullied, X bumped me in the hall!”

@gaist

Well, it is about time we had some some dark energy woo. Quantum is getting stale.

@ Ren, of course we are.*

*By the whiny-arsed anti-vaxx definition of bullying of course.

Vicki: What the heck is a “refracted focused beam”?

Vicki, it is known as “ducting” or “super refraction” of a beam of radiation:

If the atmospheric condition that causes superrefraction bends the beam equal to or more than the earth’s curvature then a condition called ducting, or trapping, occurs. Ducting often leads to false echoes also known as anomalous propagation or simply AP.

Oh, good L-rd. The coinage isn’t just redundant, it makes you sound foolish right off the bat,* as though you’re babbling about refractive focusing (“refracted off the atmosphere” is a similar garbling). The existence of conditions for ducting varies from uncommon to rare (PDF).

I showed in my paper where 14 antennas in a group exceed the FCC safe limit for uncontrolled areas 8000′ away (along the path of the beam)

“Uncontrolled areas”? Why would all the antennas be pointing in the same direction? Is this just some sort substitute for isotropy in your word salad? Before you start combining antennas, you have to demonstrate that you’re not hopelessly wrong for one (and no, I’m not going to go read “your paper”; if you can’t explain it here, you don’t understand it in the first place):

Do the calculation for a perfect waveguide.

* Rather than letting the true crankery sink in over time.

gaist

December 1, 2015
“Real crop circle patterns (reflecting plasma/heat/magnetic damage) may actually be triggered from dark matter and energy, passing through Earth. In this case, dark matter can be both beautiful and deadly. Are some of these intricate patterns actually trying to tell us something? (Yes)”
(from the Honey, They Cooked the Kids Illustrated Ebook)

It’s a mighty fine book you’ve written, full of wisdom and insight, for sure. I’m curious to hear your thoughts on what the patterns are trying to tell us as they pass through our planet.

OMG Look at these articles!

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=4774
http://www.sciencefriday.com/articles/cosmic-connections-dark-matter-and-the-dinosaurs/

Some are warning us about electromagnetic radiation from earth stations and microwave towers…

http://darkmattersalot.com/2014/12/14/what-if-our-first-contact-was-something-we-really-did-not-want-to-hear/

Todd W.

http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com
December 1, 2015
@gaist

“Not only is he an expert on biology and epidemiology, he’s also an astrophysicist? Is there anything ChemE isn’t an expert on?”

NOt really, but I do have a theory of everything based upon M Theory. “The Theory of Everything” that nobody knows what it means…

http://darkmattersalot.com/2013/04/15/is-it-our-brane-thats-still-foggy-or-is-it-just-string-theory-for-dummies-me/

We have lots of cold dark matter in our atmosphere.

While I was looking for Dark Energy, which routinely knocks houses over, I found lots of microwave radiation that the electrical engineers can’t seem to keep track of.

Looks at #281.

Ok: this clown is not serious – he’s just posting random bullcrap picked from an orifice. Nobody is stupid enough to write “While I was looking for Dark Energy, which routinely knocks houses over” or “We have lots of cold dark matter in our atmosphere.” and be serious about it.

“Uncontrolled areas”? Why would all the antennas be pointing in the same direction?”

Because they are transmitting up to the same geostationary satellite. Or in the case of microwave relay towers they are transmitting to the same remote tower.
Is this just some sort substitute for isotropy in your word salad? Before you start combining antennas, you have to demonstrate that you’re not hopelessly wrong for one (and no, I’m not going to go read “your paper”; if you can’t explain it here, you don’t understand it in the first place):

Do the calculation for a perfect waveguide.
Total Power at the Antennas 1330 watts (14 earth stations pointing at same satellite)
Antennas avg Gain in dBi 53.2 dBi
Distance to the Area of Interest 4000 feet
1219.2 metres
Frequency of Operation 5000 MHz
Are Ground Reflections Calculated? Yes
Estimated RF Power Density 3.8084 mW/cm2
Controlled
Environment Uncontrolled
Environment
Maximum Permissible Exposure (MPE)
5.005 mW/cm2
1.005 mW/cm2
Distance to Compliance From Centre of Antenna
3490.9796 feet
1064.0506 metres
7806.0059 feet
2379.2706 metres
Does the Area of Interest Appear to be in Compliance?
yes
no

* Rather than letting the true crankery sink in over time.

Wow. I mean, wow. I’ve been busy with life for several days and didn’t notice this thread. As someone with professional (and hobby) s/w and RF/antenna design expertise, and the degrees to back it up, there’s really only one thing I can do while skimming this fellow’s blathering. I am sitting here with a silly grin on my face and occasionally laughing as I read. That may be a bit cruel since he appears to need professional help, and I don’t mean the technology sort.

Martha Rocks!

Good grief ChemE will latch onto anyone he thinks validates his pet hypothesis. You might want to take a little closer looksie at whackadoo mould-causes-autism Martha Herbert there Radar.

NOt really, but I do have a theory of everything based upon M Theory. “The Theory of Everything” that nobody knows what it means…

Betcha John Cleese does.

rs, this you see this admission by ChemE: “Actually I disagree with electrical engineers much of the time and I work with 100 of them.” ?

I assume you agree with his dissenting co-workers.

I think I know where the electrons are going

Electrons go around in circles.

Let me ask a simple question. How come nobody has checked electromagnetic radiation power density against autism and cancer clusters I haven’t gone outside with a field strength meter?

No, the right way for ChemE to show a real world threat would be to go outside with an antenna and a spectrum analyzer (a pre-amp would probably be in order, too). We’re in prime ducting season about now (it tends to happen when the weather is changing), so it probably wouldn’t take more than a long week-end to come back with all the real world plots he’d need to shut us right up. Match those with his predictions, and he’d be golden.

In a previous life, I’ve done exactly that, so I can tell you what he’ll see, and that nothing like what he thinks he will.

He’s ignoring free space loss (considerable), the fact that all the various transmitters are on different frequencies (with a lot of unused bandwidth in between, so you can’t just add them up), and most importantly that ducting doesn’t exactly look like the simplified pictures he’s been using. Microwave ducting isn’t like a LASER beam bouncing between front silver mirrors, it’s more like a flashlight beam bouncing between sheets of wrinkled tissue paper that has holes in it.

I have this beautiful non-isotropic radiation model which I can enter dish angle and cloud ceiling and power feed and gain and it computes a radiation profile striking the ground (which incidentally can be 3 times higher a few miles away from the dish transmitter than directly around it (see “cone of silence” – not Get Smart)

No sh*t, Sherlock. That’s because they’re not aimed at the ground. And cloud ceiling tells you exactly nothing about n(h), which moots the whole thing.

It can then process and compute the overlapping refracted power density of 10,000 high gain antennas within 30 seconds across the US. It then uses that power density for any point in the US to create maps and data tables that I can than run statistics against incidences of diseases(geocoded with lat/lon and FIPS codes) and my python routine spits out P-values for null hypotheses.

This is idiotic. You don’t even have a time series for your “computation” of “power densities.”

It is a beautiful thing I must say.

Yah. Surely there must be some AREPS output floating around that you could benchmark it against.

palindrom
December 1, 2015
“Well, there is a slight problem that EIRP is a meaningless statistic, given that the beams are going every which way, and that at microwave frequencies the refraction of the atmosphere is tiny.”

The FCC makes the vendors report EIRP, why do you say it is meaningless? It is an indication of the equivalent focused power of the transmitter

Actually GHz frequencies are refracted more then AM/FM so you are wrong about that. For ducting it can be 100% refraction and you become “biological contaminants” or “ground clutter”

Ducting is actually very common along coastlines, so don’t make stuff up.
https://sdsimonson.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/ducting1.png

“Microwave ducting isn’t like a LASER beam bouncing between front silver mirrors, it’s more like a flashlight beam bouncing between sheets of wrinkled tissue paper that has holes in it.”

I never called it a laser beam, you did and i did call it like a flashlight or searchlight beam and in the case of Hollywood Hills there are 224 of them all bouncing around at times, all at similar earth station frequencies

I NEED HELP!
Can anyone point me to some “most probable” sites where germ theory denial is a big thing. There is some complete idiot on a CBC vaccine-related comment thread that denies germ theory (“Measles is a vitamin deficiency disease, polio is a chemical poisoning disease.” and he flat-out denies germ theory), and I’d like some idea of where the big cheeses of denial hang out.
Thanks.

Not only is he an expert on biology and epidemiology, he’s also an astrophysicist? Is there anything ChemE isn’t an expert on?

There’s more. He’s a meteorologist supreme as well!

“Orbiting dark matter has a large impact on our weather patterns and determines them to a great degree.”

In addition to triggering volcanoes, sinkholes, localized structural failures and more, the particles supposedly generate hurricanes around them, until (conveniently as far inland as would be expected following mere common meteorological models) the particle disappears underground, dissipating the storm.
Low atmospheric pressure is supposedly caused by the particle collapsing atmospheric gases during its travels, and/or due to it’s “massive gravitational pull on the surrounding gas” (yet not having that much gravitational pull on solids on the ground, it seems).

They also cause vacuum energy by creating “micro black holes sucking the entropy from its surroundings. I would think that at first, the particle will cause extreme upset to the local thermodynamic and gravitational stability of matter in its new environment”.

Oh, also Tunguska was an “exit wound” caused by one of the particles, which also cause heart attacks and strokes by their presence. (A question to ChemE, wouldn’t incidence heart attacks and strokes occur in geographical patterns then?)

Also, dark matter exiting from Earth into ocean may be responsible for fish kills… How does this coincide with your dead fish as evidence for human-caused electromagnetic radiation causing autism-theory, ChemE?

“Also, dark matter exiting from Earth into ocean may be responsible for fish kills… How does this coincide with your dead fish as evidence for human-caused electromagnetic radiation causing autism-theory, ChemE?”

We have cold dark matter in our atmosphere and it is causing electromagnetic radiation to duct and refract and scatter. Since it is cold, it is also condensing water vapor, which creates our weather.

“Dark matter’s existence is inferred from gravitational effects on visible matter and gravitational lensing of background radiation”

Waterspouts and tornadoes and hurricanes have cold dark matter along their eyewalls in my model, which are really domain walls. They are all vacuum disturbances, not just a temperature disturbance. They decay and give of “dark energy” That is why you get “hook echoes” when you point a radar at a tornado as the atmosphere bends the radiation. Basically tornadoes are small wormholes that evaporate and decay.

Simple concept.

Actually GHz frequencies are refracted more then AM/FM so you are wrong about that.

Somebody get Stephen P. McGreevy on the line.

For ducting it can be 100% refraction

OK, at least you’ve clarified that you most certainly do not know what refraction is.

and you become “biological contaminants” or “ground clutter”

“P.S. I am not a crank.”

NOt really, but I do have a theory of everything based upon M Theory. “The Theory of Everything” that nobody knows what it means…

If you’re conceding that “M Theory” doesn’t mean anything, then that’s a start.

Narad
December 1, 2015
“OK, at least you’ve clarified that you most certainly do not know what refraction is.”

??

http://www.theweatherprediction.com/habyhints/234/
Ducting is exceptional super-refraction. Super-refraction occurs when the trajectory of a radar beam bends towards the earth’s surface more than normal.

The advantages of ducting are increased radar range, being able to sample storms further from radar, and being able to sample lower elevations within storms further from radar. The disadvantages of ducting are increased ground clutter and increased anomalous propagation (due to radar beams bouncing energy back from hitting earth’s surface or sampling storms beyond the radar’s maximum unambiguous range).

Can anyone point me to some “most probable” sites where germ theory denial is a big thing.

@ doug, there is no one hovel where these loons congregate. AVN (not the porn site), Natural News and Prison Planet spring to mind though.

Thanks, Science Mom. I’ve paid little attention to germ theory denialists, though I’ve read our host’s posts. Whale is usually the first place that comes to my mind for anything that’s grossly ridiculous, but I know it only by reputation, not because I’ve spent more than a few minutes there. (Perhaps a certain someone should be nudged in that direction.)
I’ve sort of decided not to engage the kook – it seems a bit like trying to reason with a bowl of rice pudding.

I never called it a laser beam…

But isn’t your model based on exactly that?

According to your model as you post #284, 100% of the EIRP is returned to the earth, but if that happened, all those satellite uplinks would go dark. That doesn’t happen in real life. In fact, nothing close to that happens, and you’d know that if you had the slightest idea what you were talking about.

Don’t you think that maybe your model is off just a wee little bit? Like a coupla dB?

You do know what a dB is, right?

Based on your post #284, what would be the free space loss?

We have cold dark matter in our atmosphere and it is causing electromagnetic radiation to duct and refract and scatter.

Dark matter only interacts gravitationally.

Since it is cold, it is also condensing water vapor, which creates our weather.

Yoo hoo.

Leaving aside the cosmological stuff, you’re trying to play RF physics and engineering while demonstrating less practical understanding than a competent member of the the Amateur Radio Service.*

I suggest that you make keeping your day job your first priority.

* Never should have eliminated the Morse requirements.

Narad
December 1, 2015
“OK, at least you’ve clarified that you most certainly do not know what refraction is.”

??

You used the words “100% refraction.” What you would have meant if you had the slightest idea what you’re talking about would have been 100% reflection.

^ Eh, that was an atrocious sentence. I’ll just note that ChemE left something out from the quote in comment 217, viz., “the chance of two radars with identical atmospheric conditions are nil so it is wise to get views of storms from nearby radars to compare with the closest view to take into account beam spreading and refraction.”

Path losses change all of the time with weather conditions. Just because a signal ducts heavily in one area does not mean a portion of the signal still does not make it to the satellite along a multi paths outer.

You guys are totally missing the point that in an area of LA with 466% more high gain broadcast antennas you have 400% more autism. And that does not include the extra relay antennas. And it is a similar situation around the LaJolla and Fresno clusters. Microwave Radiation fills up an area due to path losses such as refraction, reflection and scattering, just like light(visible radiation) does.

Path loss normally includes propagation losses caused by the natural expansion of the radio wave front in free space (which usually takes the shape of an ever-increasing sphere), absorption losses (sometimes called penetration losses), when the signal passes through media not transparent to electromagnetic waves, diffraction losses when part of the radiowave front is obstructed by an opaque obstacle, and losses caused by other phenomena.

The signal radiated by a transmitter may also travel along many and different paths to a receiver simultaneously; this effect is called multipath. Multipath waves combine at the receiver antenna, resulting in a received signal that may vary widely, depending on the distribution of the intensity and relative propagation time of the waves and bandwidth of the transmitted signal. The total power of interfering waves in a Rayleigh fading scenario vary quickly as a function of space (which is known as small scale fading). Small-scale fading refers to the rapid changes in radio signal amplitude in a short period of time or travel distance.

Narad

* Never should have eliminated the Morse requirements.

I take it that you are in the “There is no intelligent life on 2 metres.” camp.

ChemE,
If you want to be truly scientific about this you will try your very best to break your hypothesis. By this I mean you should be looking very hard for an alternative explanation for this correlation, perhaps look for natural experiments in other areas where microwave exposure is particularly high or low, maybe look at people who are occupationally exposed to microwaves, or those who are hardly exposed at all, maybe those living in remote areas off the grid, and see if they have more or fewer children with ASDs.

Ask yourself what else would have to be true or false if your hypothesis is correct and look to see if this the case or not. A real scientist would chase down and correct their figures for confounders, not flippantly dismiss them.

What you appear to be doing at present is looking for evidence to support your hypothesis, and ignoring any that does not, which is the unmistakable mark of the crank and dilettante.

127.0.0.1
December 2, 2015
I never called it a laser beam…

But isn’t your model based on exactly that?

No, I am using a standard non-isotropic antenna power density calculation model which includes ground reflections.

Since I have 224+ Transmission antennas in close proximity in that LA autism cluster area, I could have chosen more antennas and higher path losses and come to the same conclusion.

And that does not include all of the studio relay transmitters overhead.

What happens when air traffic with metal fuselages fly through those beams? ~ 100% reflection to the ground. LAX (cluster wraps around it, Santa Monica and Burbank.

Scattered, smothered and covered.

So let’s leave it at this:

You guys think 400% greater autism diagnosis in the area is due primarily to higher education and higher income and I think it is due to 466%+ higher microwave radiation in the area.

I could have chosen more antennas and “higher” path losses and come to the same conclusion.

I meant to say “lower” path losses

400% greater autism diagnosis in the area

Greater than what? What is your baseline? What are you using as a control?

“Greater than what?”

Greater then the rest of the LA area. Read the hypothesis paper

ChemE- If I substituted “witches” for “microwave radiation”, your theory wouldn’t be much different from what passed for science in the Middle Ages.

Greater then the rest of the LA area. Read the hypothesis paper

How did you control for differences in demographics? Migration? SES? Education? Parental age and health status?

Oh wait that’s right…

Greater then the rest of the LA area.

And how did you define the area used? (In addition to the confounding variables Science Mom mentioned.) How did you determine what was in your experimental area vs. what was in your control area?

http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com
December 2, 2015

“And how did you define the area used? (In addition to the confounding variables Science Mom mentioned.) How did you determine what was in your experimental area vs. what was in your control area?”

Todd, I drew a bounding box in Google Earth around the Autism Cluster in Santa Monica/Hollywood Hills area identified by Columbia Researchers and my Python routine extracted 224 high gain microwave earth stations and pulsed radars in the cluster area from my database of 10,000+. My transmitter database was downloaded from the FCC I can then move the bounding box to ANY area of LA outside of the cluster and get ~400%+ less high gain microwave transmitters. I had 48 in the example I showed in my paper. Moving the box to multiple different areas should help resolve demographics issues.

The concentration of high gain microwave antennas is very obvious on my maps and lines up very well with the cluster area, which is ~ 20km x 50km and is irregular shaped, same as the transmitter locations.

https://www.academia.edu/18019528/Evidence_for_increased_autism_due_to_electromagnetic_pollution_from_high_power_high_gain_microwave_antennas

palindrom:

To all my biomed and medical statistics oriented commentariat friends out there: the physics is just as bad as the epidemiology.

I am reminded of a joke my uncle (a statistician at 3M) likes to tell:

Biologists defer only to chemists.
Chemists defer only to physicists*.
Physicists defer only to mathematicians.
Mathematicians defer only to God.

*Except for ChemE, who is of course a chemical engineer, not a chemist. There is a distinction.

Sarah A:

Anyway, my point is that its not totally impossible that some of these clusters could actually have higher rates of ASDs than the general population, but there would still be more plausible explanations than ChemE’s hypothesis.

That is a very good point, and I also have a hunch that autism might be more disabling among the highly educated and wealthy urban families, because they are more likely to put their children into highly structured academic courses and intense extra-curricular activities where a kid with autism may experience a lot more stress than if they, for instance, grew up on a farm. A farm is a perfectly good place to grow up, BTW. I just kind of wonder if maybe high-functioning autistics might be less likely to display concerning symptoms if they’re in a less stressful environment to begin with. ADHD too. I wonder if ADHD is more diagnosed now not because there are more people with it but because it is more disabling, since a critical

But mostly I wanted to point out that the most obviously plausible explanation for the difference in diagnosis is nothing more than access to services, and ChemE has dismissed it because he cannot envision the data being wrong. And that is a huge deficiency in his logic to which he still has not responded.

ChemE:

Because they are transmitting up to the same geostationary satellite.

Ah, you do know there’s more than one geostationary satellite, right? And that’s without even considering Molniya-orbit commsats, popular for those high-latitude regions where there’s a crappy line-of-sight to the geosycnhronous ring, and all the lower orbit ones, like the Iridium constellation, and if we’re being honest, we should really also be counting the navigation satellite constellations, mainly GPS but also GLONASS, Beidou, and the nascent Galileo, as they also receive transmissions from the ground.

Good gracious, can you imagine what cancer rates must be around Goldstone, California, with the Deep Space Network site located there? 😛

By the way, “dark matter” and “dark energy” aren’t discrete entities. They’re placeholder terms for matter and energy which we know exists but cannot observe directly and so can’t identify. Cranks tend to assume they’re specific entities, rather than quite likely a whole bunch of things we haven’t discovered yet. Thus, dark matter and energy tend to be a very useful litmus test for cranks.

Oh, and ChemE, to Gary you said this:

Microwave radiation is real. You apparently believe in witches

Witches absolutely do exist; they just don’t really have magical powers, even if they think they do. So I’d say his analogy is spot on, as you evidently believe microwaves have powers beyond those scientifically proven, and refuse to actually study them in anything like a scientific manner.

Guys,

Thanks for all of your support!

You’re now in the top 4% of researchers on Academia by 30-day views!

THIRTY-DAY STATISTICS
129
PROFILE VIEWS
123
DOCUMENT VIEWS
102
UNIQUE VISITORS

Thanks,
The Academia.edu Team

Calli Arcale

Witches absolutely do exist; they just don’t really have magical powers,

I thought he meant the powerful kind. The others are most likely scattered through LA with most showing up around Halloween

I have to say, this thread has become quite entertaining and educational. I appreciate the comments from Science Mom, Calli Arcale, et al, who have pointed out ChemE’s errors that I wasn’t aware of (physics, radio waves, etc are WAY out of my knowledge base). While I readily recognized he was ignoring any cofounders, I couldn’t call him/her on the radiation stuff.

Thanks to all of the minions who have this knowledge! 🙂

Crud… “recognized he/she…” I didn’t bother to click on ChemE’s links of self-aggrandizement, so unsure of the sex and want to be PC. 😀

“Good gracious, can you imagine what cancer rates must be around Goldstone, California, with the Deep Space Network site located there? ”

Yes, Hinkley, California is near Goldstone. Lots of health issues there. I mapped it on my blog and the radar is in my database. If you look at the autism map of california it is high in the South/SouthEast.

EMF increases corrosion/oxidative attack of positively charged metals/minerals like Ca2+, etc…in electrolytes

If we are going to immerse ourselves in all of this EMF we need cathodic protection for our children

After seeing an old Mythbusters episode, I can see ChemE knitting copper clothing for his kids…..

Krebiozen
December 2, 2015
ChemE,
If you want to be truly scientific about this you will try your very best to break your hypothesis.

I did. I received assistance from a computional biologist at a university in the SE US three years ago to help me setup a null hypothesis in Florida for dead fish, built a metric, ran 10,000 iterations sorting 3 years of fish kills along with radar locations and dummy(not stupid) locations and computed P-values for null hypothesis. p-values ranged <.01 to less than 0.001. Info on my blog. His initial comments are on my blog if anybody even cared.

Since many of the marine mammals around the radars appeared to be dying of "shock" I said hell, maybe they are getting shocked!

By this I mean you should be looking very hard for an alternative explanation for this correlation

I did, and I have narrowed it down to electrical engineers and witches

, perhaps look for natural experiments in other areas where microwave exposure is particularly high or low,

I have, it led me to the North Shore of Kauai where the Calcium Carbonate coral reef is dissolving below the 30M watt pulsed microwave radar stations and the reef fish are turning black and going belly up. So bad they are making a movie!

maybe look at people who are occupationally exposed to microwaves, or those who are hardly exposed at all, maybe those living in remote areas off the grid, and see if they have more or fewer children with ASDs.

For ASD I mapped clusters throughout California

Ask yourself what else would have to be true or false if your hypothesis is correct and look to see if this the case or not. A real scientist would chase down and correct their figures for confounders, not flippantly dismiss them.

I am an engineer, I like to identify and solve problems. I did not flippantly dismiss confounders, I agree with the Columbia researchers that those other confounders mentioned are only a small part of the answer.

What you appear to be doing at present is looking for evidence to support your hypothesis, and ignoring any that does not, which is the unmistakable mark of the crank and dilettante.

I actually handed off my research to others with faster computers, larger databases, more initials after their names, and more money to either falsify or support my hypothesis.

We shall wait and see…

I am just the color commentary

“Good gracious, can you imagine what cancer rates must be around Goldstone, California, with the Deep Space Network site located there? ”

YOU ARE SO RIGHT! THEY EVEN MADE A MOVIE!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Brockovich_(film)

Last I read about Hinkley, backbones were dissolving, trees dying,

Painfully oblivious or willfully obtuse that the Hinkley cluster was groundwater contamination from power plant runoff?

I drew a bounding box in Google Earth around the Autism Cluster in Santa Monica/Hollywood Hills area identified by Columbia Researchers

But how did you determine precisely where the boundaries were drawn? A difference of a block could greatly change your results. And how did you account for people who moved into/out of the region? How did you control for treatment center proximity? How did you control for parental age? How did you control for pre-natal exposure to drugs like valproate? How did you control for pre-natal infections, like rubella?

ChemE: “Thanks for all of your support!

You’re now in the top 4% of researchers on Academia by 30-day views! ”

So you are just spamming for page views?

“I am an engineer, I like to identify and solve problems.”

So what? You are way out of your depth in terms of skills and education.

“I did not flippantly dismiss confounders…”

That is probably true. You dismissed them because you do not have clue about the issues, and how epidemiology works. In an advanced applied math class for engineers I did do problems involving epidemiology, but that does not make me cognizant of all of the factors that go into that discipline.

In short, I can solve the specific differential equations, but I cannot up come up with the appropriate variables or how they related to each other. Not like I can for the mechanical systems in a dynamic structure.

ChemE,

I did not flippantly dismiss confounders,

Then I must have misunderstood you when you wrote:

Confounders such as education level, income level, vaccinations were considered but found to be so outlandish and clueless that they were dismissed in their entirety early on in the study

BTW, are you aware that no one here, other than the occasional crank visitor, believes that vaccines cause autism?

BTW, are you aware that no one here, other than the occasional crank visitor, believes that vaccines cause autism?

So why is everybody wasting their time talking and blogging about it?

OK, my bad it was VAxBlogMom that set me off.

I was joking about that confounder stuff. What I meant to say was that if you get a good education and income, buy an expensive home in Hollywood Hillsides near all of the high gain microwave antennas and buy lots of electronic/wireless toys for you and your kids, their chances of getting autism are higher. And as you get older and spend more time in the area, your chances of genetic damage and having a kid with autism increase since you are getting oxidized/corroded faster than others due to the extra EMF load in the area.

So take your Anti-Oxidants!

Todd W.
http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com
December 2, 2015

But how did you determine precisely where the boundaries were drawn? A difference of a block could greatly change your results.

I zoomed in in Google with a high res monitor and set the box as close to the boundaries of the autism cluster identified by Columbia University. I used my reading glasses for extra magnification. I then duplicated the box using cut and paste to make sure it was exactly the same size…(~20km x 50 km)

And how did you account for people who moved into/out of the region?

I can move the box anywhere in California and most places in the US and they will not have that many microwave transmitters, so I have that covered. I guess if they move out of the country I have a problem…

How did you control for treatment center proximity?

I figured if I can move my box anywhere in California and not have that much microwave radiation, I have that covered. some boxes will have treatment centers many will not.

How did you control for parental age? How did you control for pre-natal exposure to drugs like valproate? How did you control for pre-natal infections, like rubella?

ditto, I can move my box anywhere in California and not have that much microwave radiation from one area. Some areas will have young people, some will have old people some will have healthy people, some will have sick people.

Whatever Columbia & UC Davis did in defining their cluster maps are included in my research (because I used their maps)

That is exactly why you guys can’t figure out autism, you can’t see the forest through the trees. You are stuck in the weeds and trying to separate gnat shit from pepper.

I took a look down from 30,000 feet up in the atmosphere and the cause is obvious, that area of Hollywood Hills is glowing with microwave radiation (in a non-visible sort of way). I can move my box anywhere in California and they don’t have that much radiation. It is the microwave broadcast capital of the WORLD!

Reminds me of the extra crispy meal at KFC

I was joking about that confounder stuff Thanks for clearing that up, so relieved, etc. etc.

OK, my bad it was VAxBlogMom that set me off.

Set you off about what? And are you twelve years old?

was joking about that confounder stuff. What I meant to say was that if you get a good education and income, buy an expensive home in Hollywood Hillsides near all of the high gain microwave antennas and buy lots of electronic/wireless toys for you and your kids, their chances of getting autism are higher. And as you get older and spend more time in the area, your chances of genetic damage and having a kid with autism increase since you are getting oxidized/corroded faster than others due to the extra EMF load in the area.

And once again, you weren’t joking about your lack of controlling for confounding variables…you are really that out of your depth and got called out on it. Furthermore, you can’t make this claim because you haven’t collected any relevant data, just your one variable. Shall I assume you are kidding about that too amateur?

ChemE: “I was joking about that confounder stuff.”

I doubt you even understand anything about it.

“What I meant to say was that if you get a good education and income, buy an expensive home in Hollywood Hillsides near all of the high gain microwave antennas and buy lots of electronic/wireless toys for you and your kids, their chances of getting autism are higher.”

I also doubt you understand much of the geography of the area. There are hills all over. Also, many cities like Seattle it is difficult to not live on a hill (though the ones that go faster are those with views of water).

The Autism Watch website has diagnostic requirements for three different states listed. It turns out that is one big confounding factor, as explained here:
http://www.autism-watch.org/general/edu.shtml

Being an engineer does not give you special powers to do much outside your discipline. I am learning that the very hard way by trying to read legal documents as we set up a Special Needs Trust for our autistic son, and get our wills updated. The Latin used by lawyers is mind boggling. Though I take heart that they get confused by the Greek alphabet soup employed in engineering math.

And are you twelve years old? Please, let’s not unnecessarily malign twelve year-olds.

Chris
December 2, 2015
ChemE: “Thanks for all of your support!

In short, I can solve the specific differential equations, but I cannot up come up with the appropriate variables or how they related to each other. Not like I can for the mechanical systems in a dynamic structure.

Chris, I work with a a lot of structural engineers, they have a hard time thinking out of the box afraid that the box will fall over.

Since you are a structural engineer, I don’t know if you have designed any marine structures (I worked 10 years for a marine engineering firm) So you should know about cathodic protection to reduce corrosion of the structure and sacrificial anodes (like zinc, which is less reactive than calcium). You should also know that stray electrical currents, as low as 0.01 mA DC can accelerate corrosion (oxidative attack) in seawater (electrolyte).

In fact a new warship with high powered pulsed radars and electronics began dissolving shortly after put into service.

http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/10/16/so-its-all-come-back-round-to-breaking-apart-again/

RF/EMF accelerates corrosion/oxidative attack in anything conductive nearby by increasing ORP in electrolytes

A warship with 6 typical antennas induce 6mA/m2 of electrical on surrounding seawater. Remember that 0.01 mA accelerates corrosion
https://www.cst.com/Content/Events/nauf2008/02-willhite.pdf

All I am saying is that if you live near lots of antennas your life will corrode faster…

Is it a surprise that cheme references (and inhabits) one of the more infamous homes for weak-minded conspiracy theorists and science-deniers, darkmattersalot dot com? It shouldn’t be.

@ChemE – Are you being serious? You know that humans aren’t made of metal, right? Our bodies have complex systems in place to balance oxidation and reduction, just like we have systems in place to maintain pH and osmotic pressure. Just because something corrodes metal doesn’t mean its going to corrode people, any more than drinking lemon juice lowers your pH or drinking water lyses your cells.

The Autism Watch website has diagnostic requirements for three different states listed. It turns out that is one big confounding factor, as explained here:
http://www.autism-watch.org/general/edu.shtml

“So, what is happening in Oregon and Minnesota? ”

Oregon gets lots of weather which is linked to the autism rate
http://darkmattersalot.com/2014/11/19/precipitousprecipitationparadox/
http://darkmattersalot.com/2014/11/19/oregon/

Radiation refracts/reflects off weather

Minneapolis, MN is the midwest broadcast capital:

http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/11/28/lots-of-high-gain-microwave-antennas-in-minneapolis-also/

The jump in autism rates in MN in the mid 90’s correlates fairly well temporally with radar installation time frame:

http://darkmattersalot.com/2013/11/03/ok-now-i-feel-worse-again/

ChemE, that whizzing sound was all the points I just made going over your head. Well, that and everybody else’s.

“If you want to be truly scientific about this you will try your very best to break your hypothesis.

I did. I received assistance from a computional biologist at a university in the SE US three years ago to help me setup a null hypothesis in Florida for dead fish”

Oh, congratulations. You got someone else to help you develop a null hypothesis regarding dead fish in Florida. This means you never have to look at any confounders ever again in any hypothesis, and you’ve satisfactorily made an effort to disprove your hypothesis . . . right?

BTW, your hypothesis that microwave radiation causes autism is probably not nullified very well by a hypothesis pertaining to dead fish in Florida. I think I will have to decline any of your engineering expertise, as this does not give me much confidence in the thoroughness of your engineering analyses.

@Sarah A

I’m just waiting for his Nobel winning paper showing that radio waves are ionizing radiation.

Oh Jesus, ChemE is a full-fledged, reality-challenged, individual…..linking weather to dark matter?

He isn’t an engineer, he’s a science fiction writer.

ChemE: “Oregon gets lots of weather which is linked to the autism rate”

So does Washington. A point you missed because you did not read Dr. Laidler’s article. Perhaps you were not aware that the “Washington” stated on the page was the state that borders Oregon and was once part of the Oregon Territory, and not our nation’s capital city.

You’ll have to understand I will take the writing of Dr. Laidler, a medical doctor and biochemist PhD, over your website. Especially since you are further showing a lack understanding about the geography of the Western USA.

Sarah A
December 2, 2015
@ChemE – Are you being serious? You know that humans aren’t made of metal, right?

Calcium is a metal, one of the most corrodable

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/electrode-potential-d_482.html

You know that, right?

Our bodies have complex systems in place to balance oxidation and reduction, just like we have systems in place to maintain pH and osmotic pressure.

Until you irradiate the human and blood and increase ORP and throw it out of balance.

Just because something corrodes metal doesn’t mean its going to corrode people, any more than drinking lemon juice lowers your pH or drinking water lyses your cells.

Our bodies fight oxidative stress their entire lives. EMF increases corrosion rate in electrolytes by increasing ORP

You know that your cells/bones have calcium in them and that calcium is a metal right??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium
Calcium is a chemical element with symbol Ca and atomic number 20. Calcium is a soft gray alkaline earth metal

Listen to these doctors discuss it, don’t believe me.
http://www.kkcr.org/archive/ht101915.mp3

Chris

December 2, 2015
ChemE: “Oregon gets lots of weather which is linked to the autism rate”

“So does Washington.”
A point you missed because you did not read Dr. Laidler’s article. ”

No, I sent you maps of Washington and Oregon from the study
http://darkmattersalot.com/2014/11/19/precipitousprecipitationparadox/

“Perhaps you were not aware that the “Washington” stated on the page was the state that borders Oregon and was once part of the Oregon Territory, and not our nation’s capital city.”

So catch a clue

It appears that ChemE has taken Heinlein”s Waldo and thrown some numbers in to it. The idea that em radiation causes X is as old as our knowledge of em radiation. The last one I remember is that cell phones cause brain cancer.

I can see ChemE knitting copper clothing for his kids…..

“I’m knitting it into a pair of socks. Nothing fits better nor wears longer than solid wire socks”

Sorry, ChemE, when I said I prefer Dr. Laidler’s writing, I also meant I will never click on your website for any reason. Especially since your idea of precipitation and microwave radiation trumps the difference of school assessments.

If you want to be taken seriously you will stick to providing us PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers (no lawyers or engineers, please).

“So catch a clue”

Oh, the irony!

Todd W.

http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com
December 2, 2015
@Sarah A

I’m just waiting for his Nobel winning paper showing that radio waves are ionizing radiation.

No, they are actually increasing oxidation and corrosion rates, not ionizing – oxidizing. It is almost as bad.

Chris
December 2, 2015
“Sorry, ChemE, when I said I prefer Dr. Laidler’s writing, I also meant I will never click on your website for any reason. Especially since your idea of precipitation and microwave radiation trumps the difference of school assessments.”

Uh dude, that is how a pulsed microwave weather radar works, it pulses 1,000,000 watts ~ @ ~ 45 dBi gain and 2.8 Ghz (same freq as a microwave oven) a few hundred to 1000 times per second and bounces the radiation off the clouds and precipitation. What you see on your 6:00 weather news is microwave radiation scattered back to the dish, not the actual clouds… very little of the radiation makes it back to the dish, most of it scatters and is absorbed in the surroundings.

Duh

chemE, did you ever learn anything in statistics besides the words? It certainly doesn’t seem that you did (or that learned basic science).

Oregon gets lots of weather

The only way to avoid “lots of weather” is to live underground.

ChemE…one question. You blather on and on and on about California. What about New Jersey? According to the CDC, New Jersey has the highest levels of autism in the country. Of course, that *might* be because New Jersey also has very good services for autistic children, and people move here specifically for those services if their child receives a diagnosis of autism.

Perfect example of how engineers can fall victim to this kind of quack thinking…..

Wow. Just…wow. Does ChemE remind anyone else of the Giers thinking that because testosterone binds mercury in a beaker of hot benzene it must have the same effect in the human brain?

On the plus side, the idea that tornadoes are actually short-lived wormholes could make an interesting premise for a re-imagining of the Wizard of Oz as a science fiction story.

Sally

December 2, 2015
For everyone enjoying this back and forth (I am!), there’s an excellent episode of This American Life where they talk to an electrician who claims to have disproved Einstein’s theory of relativity. It seems pretty applicable here.

Actually, I am trying to prove Einstein’s theory, ie. we live in spacetime, not space and it routinely gets curled up, creates tornadoes, waterspouts and hurricanes (all wormholes) that decay in our atmosphere, knocks over our houses, condenses the atmosphere and bends radiation back on our heads!

Reminds me of “What a Wonderful Life”

I’m wondering how much LSD ChemE has partaken of, over the past few days of this “interesting” conversation?

MI Dawn

“ChemE…one question. You blather on and on and on about California. What about New Jersey? According to the CDC, New Jersey has the highest levels of autism in the country. Of course, that *might* be because New Jersey also has very good services for autistic children, and people move here specifically for those services if their child receives a diagnosis of autism.”

MI Dawn

“December 2, 2015
OK. That proves it. ChemE is now just trolling. Time for killfile.”

Dawn, that is too bad, I was just starting to like you.

I uploaded 3 images of New Jersey for you. The North/Northwest of New Jersey has the highest autism rates in the State and also the highest density of high gain broadcast antennas and relay towers. Of course most of that also follows population density, etc.

I have not adjusted for any other confounders like time spent at Atlantic City gambling, # of Bruce Springsteen concerts attended, # of Sopranos re-runs watched, etc….

https://sdsimonson.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/nj2.png
https://sdsimonson.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/nj3.png
https://sdsimonson.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/nj1.png

Lawrence

December 2, 2015
I’m wondering how much LSD ChemE has partaken of, over the past few days of this “interesting” conversation?

Mostly coffee and Mtn. Dew…

So, ChemE, you say that you can ignore #6 of the Bradford Hill criteria (plausibility), but what about the other 8? You know:
Strength, consistency, specificity, temporality, biological gradient, coherence, experiment and analogy?

Also, what happens if you use as baseline the average number autistic adults from Pasadena and Claremont? I bet your ‘association’ goes poof.

My bones is just a brimmin’ with metallic calcium, so I’m terrible a-feared of it losin’ its precious electrons or even havin’ to share ’em. Don’t even want to think about my stock o’ heme.

Am I correct in assuming you people talking about knitted copper clothing have never had the experience of be punctured with bare copper wire?

A little ear worm I have due to ChemE:

Trollin’ Trollin’ Trollin’
Trollin’ Trollin’ Trollin’
Trollin’ Trollin’ Trollin’
Trollin’ Trollin’ Trollin’
Rawhide!
Trollin’ Trollin’ Trollin’
Though the threads are swollen
Keep them comments trollin’,
Rawhide!

Move ’em on
(Head em’ up!)
Head em’ up
(Move ’em on!)
Move ’em on
(Head em’ up!)
Rawhide!
Cut ’em out
(Paste ’em in!)
Paste’em in
(Cut em’ out!)
Cut ’em out
Paste ’em in,
Rawhide!
Keep trollin’, trollin’, trollin’
Though they’re disaprovin’
Keep them comments trollin”,
Rawhide
Don’t try to understand ’em
Just rope, laugh, and ignore ’em
Soon we’ll be discussin’ bright without ’em

doug — have they ever tried knitting with copper wire, should be the question. I’ve knitted with silver wire and it’s hell on the fingers..

They do make fine copper mesh, which can be sewn….I betcha ChemE has an entire wardrobe.

OK. That proves it. ChemE is now just trolling. Time for killfile.

His inability to consistently and competently indicate quotations is enough for me to quickly be losing interest in sifting his comments. I mean, this is ripe for yet more Not Even Wrong treatment, but I just can’t whomp up any enthusiasm:

Actually, I am trying to prove Einstein’s theory, ie. we live in spacetime, not space and it routinely gets curled up, creates tornadoes, waterspouts and hurricanes (all wormholes) that decay in our atmosphere, knocks over our houses, condenses the atmosphere and bends radiation back on our heads!

Reminds me of “What a Wonderful Life” [sic]

Remember this one?

Since electrons are fermions, when you increase electromagnetic radiation in an area, you increase uncertainty, (Pauli exclusion principal [sic]) and increase disease rates due to increased oxidative stress (corrosion) in minerals in electrolytes.

Yes, because white dwarfs are just so chock-full of “uncertainty.”

Here’s a home experiment: Go pick up some scallop shells from a kitchenware store. Put them in an appropriate microwave field. Time how long it takes them to dissolve.

P.S. Lobsters are not mollusks. Their carapaces are not “CaCO₃ based.” If you want to pretend that epizootic shell disease isn’t a result of chitinase-bearing bacteria but rather some idiocy about induced currents, you have to explain why it primarily affects the least mineralized area why crabs aren’t even worse off. Hell, where are great snail die-offs?

For the spouse who has everything…
I am totally TEMPEST-shielding my head. Why should They steal all my ideas?

[Quoting me] Do the calculation for a perfect waveguide.
[The reply] Total Power at the Antennas 1330 watts (14 earth stations pointing at same satellite)
Antennas avg Gain in dBi 53.2 dBi
Distance to the Area of Interest 4000 feet
1219.2 metres
Frequency of Operation 5000 MHz
Are Ground Reflections Calculated? Yes
Estimated RF Power Density 3.8084 mW/cm2
Controlled
Environment Uncontrolled
Environment
Maximum Permissible Exposure (MPE)
5.005 mW/cm2
1.005 mW/cm2
Distance to Compliance From Centre of Antenna
3490.9796 feet
1064.0506 metres
7806.0059 feet
2379.2706 metres
Does the Area of Interest Appear to be in Compliance?
yes
no

Great, you didn’t understand the question, which means that you don’t understand ducting, which further means that the “8000′” value disgorged from your calculation “beautiful thing” has no connection whatever to the real world.

shay, I can believe knitting with any wire is murder on the fingers. Since you didn’t offer, I’m supposing you aren’t going to let on just what you were knitting from silver.

Being stabbed with bare copper wire is extraordinarily unpleasant – far worse than any other metal I’ve been punctured with.

Machine-knit copper fabric is actually available as an off-the-shelf item. You can also get copper in what looks a bit like roving for spinning. Both of these find application in RF shielding. Braided copper “tubing” is extremely common.

Narad

“His inability to consistently and competently indicate quotations is enough for me to quickly be losing interest in sifting his comments.”

I am typing many of these responses from my IPhone so I apologize for the grammar.

“Lobsters are not mollusks. Their carapaces are not “CaCO₃ based.”

https://www.mpg.de/5720889/W004_Materials-Technology_072-079.pdf

“On closer examination of the lobster
shell and the crab carapace, pores
can be seen that pervade the structure
from top to bottom in the shape of long
canals. They are formed while the epithelial
cells create a new carapace before
molting. Tiny bulges therefore protrude
from the cell surfaces of the
lobster or crab epithelium, and the layers
of chitin fibrils must be woven
around them. Gradually, elliptical, helically
twisted pore canals are formed.
Initially, they serve as a transport system
for the minerals that the animals
use to quickly harden the soft skeletal
structure of the new carapace once they
have shed the old one.
When Fabritius zooms even further
into the electron microscope samples,
the particles that constitute the second
main component of the natural composite
become visible: essentially, they
consist of different types of calcium carbonate,
similar to the limescale deposits
we know from kitchens and bathrooms.
In the lobster shell, the particles
are arranged between the chitin fibrils
in the form of tiny spherules. In some
parts of the crab shell, similar particles
create solid tubes around the fibers. The
type of crystal lattice and the shape and
number of calcium carbonate particles
determine the hardness of the exoskeleton,
which may vary both according
to species and within one shell.”

What ocean did you crawl out of?

Our bodies have complex systems in place to balance oxidation and reduction

Sure, because if oxidation and reduction were left to balance themselves, you’d wind up having to run out for a cup of electrons first thing in the morning to make up for too much reduction, or having to clean out the excess electrons that collect in the little tray, sort of like cleaning ash and clinker from a furnace.

Just because a signal ducts heavily in one area does not mean a portion of the signal still does not make it to the satellite along a multi paths outer [sic].

Asserting a leaky waveguide (which is what you’re doing; it also looks offhand as though satcom links are designed to reject multipath) merely highlights the fact that you don’t even have it together enough to deal with the idealized case.

Somehow I’m reminded Abe Simpson (typing a letter on a manual typewriter):

“Dear Mr. President, there are too many states these days. Please eliminate three.

P.S. — I am NOT a crackpot. ”

On “Rawhide” parodies, undergraduate science professors can relate to this:

Rollin, rollin, rollin,
Rollin, rollin, rollin,
Keep them pre-meds rollin,
Rawhide!
Don’t try to educate ’em,
Just take a pen and grade ’em,
Soon you’ll be livin high ‘n wide!
Raw hiiiiiiiiiiide!

(Yip! Whip cracks.)

Regarding clothing and metal – I believe it was Gaffer Gamgee in “Lord of the Rings” (the books, not the movies) that asked Sam what happened to his weskit “I don’t hold with wearing ironmongery, whether it wears well or no.”

“it also looks offhand as though satcom links are designed to reject multipath”

I am much more interested in the the transmitter power that never makes it up to the satellite through pathlosses: free-space loss, refraction, diffraction, reflection, aperture-medium coupling loss, and absorption(into biological contaminants…)

I could care less about the ideal case since we do not live in that world. Electrical engineers don’t have a clue where all of that radiation is going and they even admit it:

From NOAA:
http://www.srh.weather.gov/srh/jetstream/doppler/beam_max.htm
“How do we know the path of the beam all times?
Aside from when AP is seen on the radar, we don’t! ”

I rest my case

doug: “shay, I can believe knitting with any wire is murder on the fingers. Since you didn’t offer, I’m supposing you aren’t going to let on just what you were knitting from silver.”

What I have seen are necklaces that were crocheted with silver wire that had bead interspersed. I guess it could be done with copper.

My daughter took a jewelry class to satisfy an art credit. There are lots of way to do damage to one’s hands, eyes and lungs if one is not careful. I just wish I knew where her box of supplies went to after she moved out. I want to see if anything will help make the yards of silk cord (that I have spent the day dying) into necklaces that I can use with some of my pendants (I have a nickel allergy, so I am creating an alternative to gold chains hardened with nickel… which is the common way).

(the dying includes three drapey ombre jackets, five semi-T-shirts, six scarves and lots of silk covered cords… today I managed the green and yellow, tomorrow I will do the blue, and I am still testing the red dyes… I may have to go buy different red dye tomorrow, the dye is the mostly costly bit, well I did get the 25 yards of white silk for $20 at a yard sale)

You don’t need to knit copper wire to make an effective shield – .1 inch copper screen should have about 14 dB attenuation at 10 GHz.

The biggest problem is that you’d need to ground it. That would limit your mobility.

I just wish I knew where her box of supplies went to after she moved out.

Funny how they never leave the useful stuff behind, isn’t it.

If anybody wants to support coral reef & marine life research here is a link to a new non-profit group in Kauai, HI

http://www.reefguardians.org/

Funding will go towards protecting our coral reefs and near shore ocean environment. I am listed on the team as an advisor, I am not being paid. Donations are tax deductible.

Happy Holidays

Funding will go towards protecting our coral reefs and near shore ocean environment. I am listed on the team as an advisor, I am not being paid. Donations are tax deductible.

Given the integrity and intellectual honesty (as in lack of) you have demonstrated here, your involvement guarantees I will avoid donating.

I am much more interested in the the transmitter power that never makes it up to the satellite through pathlosses: free-space loss, refraction, diffraction, reflection, aperture-medium coupling loss, and absorption(into biological contaminants…)

I could care less about the ideal case since we do not live in that world. Electrical engineers don’t have a clue where all of that radiation is going and they even admit it:

From NOAA:
[same old link]
“How do we know the path of the beam all times?
Aside from when AP is seen on the radar, we don’t! ”

I rest my case

One would hope. You’re simply switching back and forth willy-nilly between satellite uplinks and weather radar. You don’t understand RF propagation, particularly that you can’t say anything about ducting if you can’t even work things out about an ideal waveguide, and you and your “beautiful thing” therefore can’t calculate your way out of a wet paper bag.

Not only that, but said “website” seems to be harboring some very malicious code / malware….do not, I repeat, do not, click on that link.

Narad

December 3, 2015
“You don’t understand RF propagation, particularly that you can’t say anything about ducting”

Ducting is well established science, pathloss will vary with atmospheric conditions. This is not new science. You can’t tell me how much power is hitting the ground at any given point time around those antennas, it changes all of the time.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/RS020i005p01061/abstract

On top of that, you have shown a complete incompetence in anything chemical or biological.

Science Mom
http://justthevax.blogspot.com/

Given the integrity and intellectual honesty (as in lack of) you have demonstrated here, your involvement guarantees I will avoid donating.

Honestly, I think your blog just perpetuates the ongoing distraction of the vaccine and autism debate while our children get sicker. You are confloundering around.

ChemE- Large numbers of people, even today, have claimed that witches are responsible for diseases and famines. Why shouldn’t we believe them?

Lawrence
December 3, 2015
“Not only that, but said “website” seems to be harboring some very malicious code / malware….do not, I repeat, do not, click on that link.”

Lawrence,

I think some virus/malware scan software recognizes the wix.com photo sharing site used by reefguardians as possible malware/porn site. My browser gave me a warning the first time about the site/photos

“Dear Wix
When a photo or something is uploaded on the website, it goes to static.wixstatic.com/media Since this domain is common for all Wix users and some of them has uploaded porno stuff there, our country has banned the address and no one can access the link.”

But hey, I don’t expect you to believe me

Chow

Gray Falcon

December 3, 2015
“ChemE- Large numbers of people, even today, have claimed that witches are responsible for diseases and famines. Why shouldn’t we believe them?”

If I have learned one thing in my life, it is that people will believe whatever they want, so more power to them!

“You don’t understand RF propagation, particularly that you can’t say anything about ducting”

Ducting is well established science, pathloss will vary with atmospheric conditions.

Leaving aside that these two clauses are wholly unrelated, that’s an extremely clumsy example of selective quoting.

This is not new science.

No, it’s not, and you don’t understand any portion of it.

You can’t tell me how much power is hitting the ground at any given point time around those antennas, it changes all of the time.

Which is why your “beautiful thing” is a load of crap.

On top of that, you have shown a complete incompetence in anything chemical or biological.

Go look in the mirror, babycakes. You’re going to be back to talking to yourself in short order now that this attempt to flog your new Y—be entry has backfired spectacularly.

You can’t tell me how much power is hitting the ground at any given point time around those antennas, it changes all of the time.

Well, they have this stuff called ‘test equipment’.

In particular, there is what they call a ‘spectrum analyzer’. It makes some very pretty pictures showing what frequencies there are in a signal, and how strong each frequency is.

If you hook an antenna to a spectrum analyzer, it’s possible to measure just exactly how much RF is hitting the antenna. This is one of the best and fastest ways to track down interference. I have done this. I wasn’t the first.

I never saw anything like what you think happens.

If you want to prove your silly idea, get a spectrum analyzer and an antenna, and go gather a few plots. It’s not hard. Any half competent radio tech can show you. Then you can say exactly how much RF is hitting exactly what spot the earth, and exactly when it happened. Nobody will be able to argue with you. If you find the sorts of signals you claim are out there, you will be able to call the FCC, show them your data, and they will shut down the offending transmitters.

Pro tip – be prepared to spend some time at it. You won’t find what you think you will find.

doug @378: I have seen for sale at fiber events yarn (thread really) that is a combination of linen and stainless steel. Touching it on the spool was unpleasant enough that I would never consider buying it, but a friend actually made two tunics out of the stuff. Granted, they’re so loosely knit they’re more holes than fiber, but they do hold a shape well.

Johnny
127.0.0.1
December 3, 2015
“You can’t tell me how much power is hitting the ground at any given point time around those antennas, it changes all of the time.
Well, they have this stuff called ‘test equipment’.
In particular, there is what they call a ‘spectrum analyzer’. It makes some very pretty pictures showing what frequencies there are in a signal, and how strong each frequency is.”

Dude,

You are acting like I don’t know what a spectrum analysis is and we discussed the measurements we are doing in Kauai on the radio show & site.

I agree with everything you are saying, on top of spectrum analysis we are also testing for ORP, salinity, stray electrical current, pH, TDS, corrosion test strips, Calcium testing, etc. Full environmental survey. Underway for a few months now.

Ever try one of these?
http://www.narda-sts.us/products_highfreq_srm.php

Shay: “Funny how they never leave the useful stuff behind, isn’t it.”

Yesterday I found the little Dremel tool attachments. But the last time I saw the actual Dremel was in her box of jewelry making supplies!

I agree with everything you are saying, on top of spectrum analysis we are also testing for ORP, salinity, stray electrical current, pH, TDS, corrosion test strips, Calcium testing, etc.

So, basically, you’ve convinced a nonprofit to squander its resources on your hopelessly incompetent idée fixe?

What ocean did you crawl out of?

The one in which your CaCO₃ babbling fails to correlate with degrees of mineralization, I suppose. What part of “bacteria” and “chitinase” did you not understand? Given that you snipped this right out of your reply, I’m guessing all of it.

ChemE @396:

If I have learned one thing in my life, it is that people will believe whatever they want, so more power to them!

My poor irony meter.

I am not an amateur when it comes to chemical & environmental engineering, I have been executing projects for 29 years

Perhaps the most plausible of your utterances so far. Lethal injection?

You didn’t answer my question, ChemE. Why shouldn’t we believe witches are responsible for illness?

Why do we know that it isn’t witchcraft? Because there are other possible explanations that have stronger physical evidence.

Likewise for autism and EM fields. Yes, EM fields are a possible explanation, but there are a dozen others that have more evidence supporting them. That’s why we’re dismissing your claims.

You are acting like I don’t know what a spectrum analysis is…

I very much believe you don’t, nor do I believe you are competent to conduct such a test, nor interpret such a test.

When you say things like “You can’t tell me how much power is hitting the ground at any given point time around those antennas, it changes all of the time”, and people have been doing those test continuously for over 50 years, yeah, it makes me think you don’t know a thing about it. Sure, I can’t tell you exactly what you will see at any location at any time, but if the power levels you claim are hitting the ground were, in fact, hitting the ground, somebody would have noticed by now.

As far as the SRM-3006, no, I’ve never used one, but from reading the spec sheet, it looks to be a fine piece of field service gear. It isn’t bench quality, but it’s OK. It would find the signals you think exist, if they were there, but they ain’t so it won’t.

Chris — I really want a Dremel. Now that I’m retired and allegedly have time for some hobbies, I may buy one.

Johhny,

Thanks. You misinterpreted what I said. Because power levels change over time with atmospheric effects, I was saying you can’t know the power density level at ground (without measuring with a scope/receiving antenna).

I am not doing the testing in Kauai, we have technicians doing it and PhDs interpreting. I will also tell you that we will be measuring levels when the weather is “worst” and the 2.8 GHz Doppler weather radar reflectivity is highest and showing blue and the cumulative power density hitting the ground is highest and most testers stay inside and play Xbox.

Also, I have been quoting EIRP values above(reported to FCC ) and not actual power densities and you are smart enough to know that. The one example calc I gave above shows a power density slightly above the FCC guideline. It does include high power pulsed radars or the other 200 plus high gain antennas in the area of 20 km X 50 km. But you can spin it any way you would like.

What happens to the focused beam of microwave radiation when a low flying aircraft flies through the beam(s) hundreds of times a day?

You guys can go ahead and believe microwave radiation is good for you and I will cook my food with it.

I appreciate the opinion on the Narda unit.

“It does include high power pulsed radars or the other 200 plus high gain antennas in the area of 20 km X 50 km.”

should have read:

“It DOES NOT include high power pulsed radars or the other 200 plus high gain antennas in the area of 20 km X 50 km.”

Wait – they are going to test for RF scattering in the rain?

Why, I’ll bet in the last 60 or 70 years, nobody, and I mean nobody, ever thought of testing microwave propagation, satellite uplinks and downlinks, or RADAR in the RAIN!!!!11!!!

It’s that kind of out of your mind the box thinking that will win you the Nobel, sir.

/sarcasm

“Wait – they are going to test for RF scattering in the rain?
Why, I’ll bet in the last 60 or 70 years, nobody, and I mean nobody, ever thought of testing microwave propagation, satellite uplinks and downlinks, or RADAR in the RAIN!!!!11!!!
It’s that kind of out of your mind the box thinking that will win you the Nobel, sir.”

No, I think the problem is that everyone is concerned about their own transmitter dish which, by itself is not a problem, but when you group 224 high earth station transmitter dishes plus another few hundred high gain studio relay transmitters plus a few high power high gain pulsed radars in a “small” area at various frequencies and you throw in lots of low flying commercial and private aircraft you end up with a large voltage potential overhead.

How many high gain transmitters are safe? 200? 400? 800?

What happens when you put a constant chronic voltage potential on the ocean, a very good conductor and strong electrolyte?

You still haven’t answered my question about low flying commercial aircraft and high gain transmitters? If you don’t know just say so.

Does the FAA keep track? Does the FCC keep track? Does the military know/care? EPA? Remember that 0.01 mA DC (0.00001 amps) increases oxidation rate in electrolytes. Your bloodstream has lots of electrolytes.

Or is that not your problem and you are only concerned about your single transmitter?

Microwave Broadcast capital of California = Autism Capital

/double sarcasm**********

when you group 224 high earth station transmitter dishes plus another few hundred high gain studio relay transmitters plus a few high power high gain pulsed radars in a “small” area at various frequencies and you throw in lots of low flying commercial and private aircraft you end up with a large voltage potential overhead

As evidenced by all the discharges, of course. I think it’s time to cue the Billy Madison.

Remember that 0.01 mA DC (0.00001 amps) increases oxidation rate in electrolytes.

Except when it doesn’t. There is something(s) critical missing in the statement.

Except when it doesn’t. There is something(s) critical missing in the statement.

Don’t be silly. That’s why Pedialyte is always kept in Faraday cages.

That’s why Pedialyte is always kept in Faraday cages

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

Now that chemE has repeated demonstrated he is completely ignorant of statistics, engineering, and science, any bets what he’ll move to next?

Perhaps ChemE could engage Felonius Gru’s nemesis as a consultant to clear up some problems.

Dippy, you have completely missed the point, which doesn’t surprise me in the slightest.

From northern Canada to Saudi Arabia to points beyond there are installations that utilize controllers I designed to manage such currents. I will not elaborate.

This may be a foolish question, but where does the DC come from? Is there a huge rectifier in the sky?

And isn’t it normal to have an enormous “voltage potential” between the sky and the earth during storms, so high it sometimes leads lightning? Imagine the free radicals a thunderstorm generates.

Imagine the free radicals a thunderstorm generates.

That’s what she said. Or maybe it was him, I don’t remember anymore…

ChemE,

EMR fields can be either.

My background is in biochemistry so maybe I missed something, but how do you think microwave radiation with a frequency of 10 MHz -300 MHz generates DC current in people, the ocean, lobsters or whatever?

For decades I saw ads for Dremel tools, and thought, ‘what the hell good is that’? Then around age 50, I finally got one…. Don’t know how I ever lived without it! I’ve used genuine Dremels and a variety of other-brands. Forget cordless, not enough torque. There’s a Chinese model, with a rotary speed dial on top and a rocker on-off switch on the bottom, that works great and is super-cheap – sold under the brand names of HTS, Genesis, Wen, Master Mechanic, and no doubt others. e.g. http://tinyurl.com/jj3zxmk. Recommended!

And, AFAIK, they’re safe as far as EMF is concerned. Wearing safety googles with any rotary tool is recommended though, and the tiny rotary saw blade attachments (the metal ones with actual teeth) are REALLY dangerous.

Krebiozen,

Electromagnetic induction and conduction of EMR generating low level AC currents in electrolytes and increasing oxidative stress and “corrosion”. Many signals are now digital pulse trains that may be more biologically active. FYI most high power, high gain pulsed radars pulse at low freq (200-1000 Hz) with a 2-6 GHz carrier freq. while it is on.

http://www.hese-project.org/hese-uk/en/papers/goldsworthy_bio_weak_em_07.pdf

Calcium is a very reactive metal/mineral

ChemE,
That still doesn’t explain where the DC you mentioned comes from. AC only causes corrosion when more than 1 mW is induced, according to one of your sources. Has anyone ever measured microwave intensity great enough to induce that much current at ground level?

BTW, the last article you linked to asserts that, “the evidence that electromagnetic fields can have “non‐thermal” biological effects is now overwhelming”. Perhaps you could direct me to some of that overwhelming evidence that the EM fields humans are exposed to has clinically significant non-thermal biological effects.

AC causes accelerated corrosion @ 1 mA in electrolytes, which is 0.001 amps (not watts, like you said, which is power) which is still very low current. DC is more aggressive. They say you can feel ~ 10 mA on your skin and 100 mA (0.1 Amps) can stop a mammals heart. Your typical circuit breaker at home is 10 or 20 Amps..

Many pulsed weather radars are pulsing ~ 1,000,000 watts ~ 500 times per second which is focused to an EIRP of 32,000,000,000 (billion watts).

Lots of antenna power density calculators on the web that will show you how you can calculate E & H fields (peak and average), I reference one in my paper.

As far as overwhelming evidence of EMR affects on biology I would start here:

https://emfscientist.org

And here:

http://www.bioinitiative.org

And if you are starting to like me you can visit my blog for lots of environmental evidence and good music. 🙂

Epic Fail!

Darkmattersalot.com

1mA (0.001 Amps) not mW, that is very low current. Current induced will depend upon impedence/resistance of biological contaminant…

Begin here for “overwhelming evidence”

https://emfscientist.org

Lots of antenna power density, E&H field calculators online, I referenced one in my paper.

Voltage is a potential

The comedy just keeps coming. You might as well have said “amperage is a current.” What you fail to realize is that you keep blurting out weird phrases that literally scream that you don’t understand the basic subject.

Here I describe what I did to my house:
POWER LINE EMF CANCELLATION FOR THE HOME
https://mttmblog.wordpress.com/2013/10/01/8/

We have evolved to deal with EMF from lightning, the DC magnetic field of the earth and electromagnetic radiation from space. Everything else is a potential problem.
Since blood is a moving electrolytic solution, magnetohydrodynamic effects may also play a role in altering chemical reactions in the body..

This is another of those areas where there are some, er, fringe types claiming that X is deadly, while others claim that X is beneficial. Things like phenylalanine spring to mind, with some claiming it is a useful painkiller and antidepressant, and others claiming it is a deadly excitotoxin. Ionizing and non-ionizing radiation are much the same. I shudder to think what terrible effects ChemE and APV imagine this gadget must have. Or these radioactive stones, come to that.

Krebiozen
ChemE,
“That still doesn’t explain where the DC you mentioned comes from. AC only causes corrosion when more than 1 mW is induced”

Not “1 mW”, 1 mA. You show your ignorance. I listed both AC and DC from the slides I referenced. 1 mA AC (0.001 Amps) is a also a very small amount of currrent. 10 mA can be felt on your skin and 100 mA can stop a mammal’s heart. For any given power, amperage will depend upon impedence/resistance. Electrolytes, like the ocean and your bloodstream are very good conductors (1000 x better than Earth.)

NEXRAD Weather radars pulse 1,000,000 watts (32 Billion EIRP watts @ 45 dBi gain) ~500 times per second, plenty of peak power there to produce 0.001 Amps

I suppose these guys are all quacks?

https://emfscientist.org/

Keep making stuff up sweet cheeks. I am done teaching you . Ask Narad now that he knows what voltage potential (energy) is.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/elevol.html

Krebiozen
ChemE,
“That still doesn’t explain where the DC you mentioned comes from. AC only causes corrosion when more than 1 mW is induced”

Not “1 mW”, 1 mA. You know the difference right? I listed both AC and DC from the slides I referenced. 1 mA AC (0.001 Amps) is a also a very small amount of currrent. 10 mA can be felt on your skin and 100 mA can stop a mammal’s heart. For any given power, amperage will depend upon impedence/resistance. Electrolytes, like the ocean and your bloodstream are very good conductors (1000 x better than Earth.)

NEXRAD Weather radars pulse 1,000,000 watts (32 Billion EIRP watts @ 45 dBi gain) ~500 times per second, plenty of peak power there to induce 0.001 Amps in any conductor

190 Scientists and 2000 research papers

https://emfscientist.org/

Krebiozen

“AC only causes corrosion when more than 1 mW is induced”. I think you meant 1 mA? mW is a measure of power, mA is a measure of current.

Below is a link to a list of 217 scientists from 39 nations. These scientists have collectively published over 2,000 peer-reviewed papers on the biological or health effects of non-ionizing radiation

https://emfscientist.org/

Please visit.

Doug, did you and Narad attend the same online college?

An FM radio station broadcasts from a vertical magnetic dipole antenna of radius b mounted at height h at a frequency f with total radiated power P.

1. What is the radius over flat terrain at which the intensity is a maximum?
2. Which of these variables are totally unnecessary to arrive at the answer?

“And, AFAIK, they’re safe as far as EMF is concerned.”

I spent over ten years working with military comm-elect equipment, including some honking big microwaves. If EMF were in fact anything to worry about I’d be past praying for.

I’m going to buy a Dremel but probably not until after Christmas.

We fed the daughter tonight*. She came to pick up a package she had delivered to our house (because there is a higher chance of it disappearing in her housing complex). She lent the jewelry tools to a friend who took the same class two years ago. She has no idea where the Dremel is. Argh.

* Her rent is half of her pay. She is practicing to become a graduate student. So she is really easy to bribe with food.

Chris, depending on what you want to do, a Dremel with a “flex shaft” can be a lot nicer to use. The handpiece is much smaller and easier to hold for long periods. The drawback is you have to hang the motor so that the flex shaft doesn’t have to bend at a sharp angle.
I destroyed my genuine Dremel flex shaft when I was trying to true a rubberized wheel that was out of balance. The stupid cheap mandrel was too soft, abruptly bent at about 90 degrees and wrecked the bearing in the handpiece. Of course Dremel changes everything every once in awhile, so the new flex shafts won’t fit the older tools.
I have a couple of cheap copies, but the bearings in the flex shaft handpiece seem to be vague approximations of real bearings.

If you are loaded with cash and want something much better, I recommend Foredom Electric products. They are quite expensive, but the motor is much more powerful and there is a wide range of handpieces available. Places that sell tools for jewelers often have them – and other things usable in Dremel tools at prices that are often considerably lower for better quality. One difference is that a lot of burs for jewelry work have 3/32″ shafts and most of the Dremel stuff is 1/8″, but all you have to do is use a different collet in the chuck.
Grobet USA has nifty stuff.

“Rubberized” grinding wheels, which are made with abrasive particles in a rubber-like matrix are fabulous for certain things. Cratex is one brand. They do wear rapidly and usually need to be trued when first used (running lightly against the wheel on a bench grinder is very effective).

I’ve seriously considered getting a low-speed dental handpiece. They run on compressed air, so they can be used with water running over the workpiece and bur for cooling. There are Chinese-made counterfeits that are apparently OK. The major US or European brands are quite pricey.

I’ve seriously considered getting a low-speed dental handpiece. They run on compressed air, so they can be used with water running over the workpiece and bur for cooling.

I had no idea that dentistry dropped the extra ‘r’.

(I’ve recently had to change dentists for insurance reasons. I also reject local anaesthesia for filling work, just because. As a matter of small talk, once the new one was on board, I asked whether he used a coarser bur in such cases, as had my – as I recall – my previous dentist of a decade’s standing. The new dentist rejected the entire notion out of hand.)

Cool info, doug… thanks! The Dremel under discussion was bought by dear hubby when he was high school in the 1970s. This does seem like a good thing to upgrade.

“If you are loaded with cash and want something much better,..”

Sorry, I spent it all on dye. Plus I had to return unopened bottles today (but picked up blank newsprint to wrap dyed silk garments for their steam treatment). But I might sneak in a mail order soon. And the jewelry supplies I bought for daughter are somewhere else! Aargh! This includes files, saws, and most importantly wire and flat metal. I know because I am the one who paid the cashiers. grumble, grumble, grumble

Okay, one of those cashiers was at a place that teaches how to make jewelry, and rents out time on their tiny versions of power tools (imagine a tiny drill press for necklace pendants, or other jeweler tools). Instead of signing up for the community college class, I could take a class from them, and get both some education on what I want to, plus a student discount.

Oh, crud missing a word: “… some education on what I want to do, plus a student discount.”

Also, I just signed up for the school/store email list so I will be notified of future classes. Obviously it is too late to sign up for the “Fall 2015” classes. Plus I have to survive the December holidays (I am the tree decorator and feast creator, dear hubby deals with the gifts… thankfully we have dialed back the festivities as the kids have matured).

Her rent is half of her pay. She is practicing to become a graduate student. So she is really easy to bribe with food.

Ah, yes. Good thing she has a really nice mom, though.

I also reject local anaesthesia for filling work, just because.

I reject anaesthetic cream whilst getting tattoos. Yes, there was one fella who used it while tattooing a couple words on my right arm; took half the fun out of it, I tell ya. Nerve pain of the sort which tooth work involves is entirely another matter, though, for me at least.

What happens to the focused beam of microwave radiation when a low flying aircraft flies through the beam(s) hundreds of times a day?

Not a lot. It happens all the time. Air traffic control counts on it, it’s how they know where the airplanes are.

I’ve never done much work with RADAR, but I do know a bit about terrestrial microwave and SATCOM. Airplanes don’t fly thru terrestrial links, because the towers aren’t that tall. Flying thru a SATCOM link doesn’t do much of anything. I’ve seen the telemetry from the birds, and watched receivers on the ground, and they don’t even flicker.

Sure, an aircraft will scatter and reflect a bit if RF, but not much and not for long. If an aircraft could reflect a significant portion of a SATCOM uplink, there would be a lot more outages.

Does the FAA keep track? Does the FCC keep track? Does the military know/care? EPA?

Aircraft are painted by RADAR beams constantly, or close enough so that it makes no difference. AFAIK, nobody counts the number of times.

Now I can tell you the military (and some other guys in the government) care very much. If microwaves scattered and were as powerful as you seem to think they are, it would be a lot easier to keep certain databases up to date.

This may be a foolish question, but where does the DC come from? Is there a huge rectifier in the sky?

FSM help me, I’m starting to understand how ChemE “thinks”.

To convert AC to DC, you’d need a rectifier, as you note. Humans have rectums. Thats how the microwaves cause autism – they shock the $#!+ out of our @$$.

FSM help me, I’m starting to understand how ChemE “thinks”.

🙂 I’m very disappointed he hasn’t explained this yet. I’m sure he’s just been too busy lately.

“If you are loaded with cash and want something much better,..”

Sorry, spent it all on yarn.

@ shay simmons #451

30470 here (but those don’t exist anymore). After that, I worked as a contractor, and that’s when I got to play with the real fun stuff.

But, yeah, I, too, was microwaved almost every day.

When I came in I was a 2502, by the time I retired that had been changed to 0602 (USMC). The first half of my career was spent in the field, so yeah, microwaves, HF, not to mention radar sweeps (5 years with 3rd MAW) and all that time hanging around antenna farms.

Is it an urban myth that the heating effects of microwaves were discovered when a radar operator’s chocolate bar melted? Thermal effects seem to be the only plausible ones, as far as I can see, though there are an awful lot of cranks claiming otherwise. It reminds me of Victorians claiming (probably apocryphally) that traveling too fast on a train would result in instant asphyxiation.

I, too, was microwaved almost every day.

I had the opposite experience, all the computer equipment was Faraday-caged to TEMPEST specs to stop any detectable radiation, though it wasn’t for our health.

Krebiozen:

Is it an urban myth that the heating effects of microwaves were discovered when a radar operator’s chocolate bar melted?

I always understood that story to be true and not just a story. In fact, several versions I’ve read mention that as how Percy Spencer found out that microwaves warm food.

“…all the computer equipment was Faraday-caged…”

Sometimes it isn’t possible to just shield the equipment, and you have to go into the cage with the equipment. Like when you have a computer with a handful of terminals and a line printer, it’s easier to put all the equipment and the operators in a screen room. I have spent some time at a place that the whole building was a screen room.

“…TEMPEST specs to stop any detectable radiation…”

Strictly speaking, TEMPEST only addresses compromising emissions. If a system radiated, say, a clock signal, no problem. As long as the signal carried no classified information, it could radiate no end of RF.

Also, it isn’t necessary to stop all compromising emissions, as that’s often not possible. TEMPEST set limits on the signal strength, but the limit wasn’t zero.

Electrolytes, like the ocean and your bloodstream are very good conductors

I take it you’ve never put together a saltwater rheostat. Blood is even worse.

@Not a Troll #465

Personally I am withholding judgment on hormesis until the evidence becomes more definitive one way or the other. That said, one of my colleagues made a point of getting a chest x-ray every year just for the jolting dose of deep penetrating ionizing radiation.

It’s by no means the craziest thing people do in their personal quests to beat the reaper. One acquaintance goes online to scream at strangers that high fructose corn syrup causes ADHD; he is under the impression that he is somehow thereby increasing the safety of the national food supply.

I take it you’ve never put together a saltwater rheostat. Blood is even worse.

Obviously needs more Brawndo.

I just remembered when I was about 12 years old, I used to put 9v DC from a battery across my temples and enjoy the light-show (not recommended). I guess I’m lucky to be alive.

Doug: “Chris, I trust you know about Pro Chemical & Dye and Dharma Trading.”

Of course. Pro Chemical is the one who is having the sale I mentioned earlier.

NEXRAD Weather radars pulse 1,000,000 watts (32 Billion EIRP watts @ 45 dBi gain)

Just to reiterate, this is totally boneheaded: A moment’s thought (haven’t I said that before?) should tell anyone that a directional transmitter with a peak power of 1 MW does not in fact turn into 32 GW by virtue of being referenced to an isotropic one. The calculation is utterly meaningless. If the klystron is putting out 1 MW, that’s all the power there is.

The actual average transmitted power of a WSR-88D radar is 1.56 kW (PDF).

^ Oh, and since Our Precious Bodily Fluids are apparently the receving antenna, perhaps ChemE could figure out its gain and then apply the Friis transmission equation.

The actual average transmitted power of a WSR-88D radar is 1.56 kW

And then you consider the fact that the antenna goes up and down and round and round.
Did Joni Mitchell ever write about RADAR?

If this was a flounce from ChemE, it was a spectacular one.

Keep making stuff up sweet cheeks. I am done teaching you . Ask Narad now that he knows what voltage potential (energy) is.

Assuming that it is…. wait, it doesn’t matter. In case the wormhole opens up again, hint, ChemE: Regarding comment 450, look up the average energy flux for the antenna type and then set ∂|S|∂R| = 0.

Narad,

https://www.ntia.doc.gov/files/ntia/publications/compendium/2700.00-2900.00_01MAR14-1.pdf

“The peak power of the NEXRAD is 1 Megawatt (1×106 Watts) and it employs a directional antenna with a mainbeam gain of 45 dBi; resulting in a transmitted signal power level of 32 Gigawatts. The NEXRAD has a maximum duty cycle of 0.21 percent and a minimum duty cycle of 0.05 percent. Additional information related to ground-based weather radars can be found in ITU-R Recommendation M.1849.14”

The “average” power of 1.5 kW is meaningless since it includes the time the radar is turned off between pulses.

EIRP is very important since it indicates how focused the beam is. Similar principle you use when cooking ants using a magnifying glass and ordinary sunlight

It only takes a nanosecond to shock you.

The “average” power of 1.5 kW is meaningless since it includes the time the radar is turned off between pulses.

Why, yes, yes it does include that.

EIRP is very important since it indicates how focused the beam is.

And? That’s a derived quantity. The only reason one could pretend that it’s “very important” is for embarrassingly dumb rhetorical purposes, viz., trying to put over getting the whole trip backwards.

Go back to comment 450. I’ve already given you a hint at 480, even if I did screw up the formatting twice. Hell, plug it into the “beautiful thing” and see what that spits out.

If you can’t deal with very basic questions such as this, you are talking out of your RF ass.

Quick: What is S?

narad

I also reject local anaesthesia for filling work, just because.

It dulls the senses.

– Jack Nicholson

It dulls the senses.

Please substitute “because I find the notion of a needle being stuck into my gums viscerally horrifying” for “just because” above.

A 1970’s Dremel? That’s back in the day when mfrs made stuff to last, i.e. “they don’t make ’em like that anymore!’. I’d keep that puppy if you find it.

For anyone looking for a ‘first’ Dremel, I’d say go with that cheapo Chinese one I mentioned above — easy way to find out if you find the tool useful w/o spending the big bucks. Third party attachments — cutting wheel and such — are hit and miss, but there are some good values among the junk. BTW, the knock-off tool sold by Harbor Freight Tools is way inferior to the one I mentioned above, and costs more…

Another very useful thing for medium-size jobs is an oscillating multi-function tool. HFT has decent ones very cheap.

Well, I suppose there always could be potential voltage, as distinct from voltage potential.

Potential voltage could be defined as voltage that might appear sometime in the future, as opposed to actual voltage that exists right now.

Narad:

“And? That’s a derived quantity. The only reason one could pretend that it’s “very important” is for embarrassingly dumb rhetorical purposes, viz., trying to put over getting the whole trip backwards.”

It is very important because that is a function of the gain within the beam and the reason the candy bar melted…

that is a function of the gain within the beam and the reason the candy bar melted…

Jeezums, you guys let my candy bars get melted? I was planning on eating those later.

shay simmons:

“If you are loaded with cash and want something much better,..”

Sorry, spent it all on yarn.

Ah yes, I have that problem as well. 😉 Yarn stores are dangerous places!

With all the discussion regarding conductive materials to protect against this nasty RF, you can get Faraday protection without having to knit with copper. We use blue ESD drapes to cover open product in our labs, and if the drape completely covers the device, all the way down to the properly grounded ESD mat, then protection is assumed. We also wear our ESD labcoats, which when properly worn (three snaps minimum must be fastened, sleeves extending past the sleeves of our street wear), prevent static buildup on the surface of our clothing. Mind you, we’re mostly interested in preventing static buildup.

Now, for total Faraday protection, I have the delight of sitting next to a construction area at work where they’re building an RF shielded lab. Oh lord, the noise as they cut metal pieces to build the walls….

A while back, I came across a website offering ESD materials and garments for those who believe proper grounding and RF shielding is essential to one’s health. Perhaps ChemE would appreciate it. 😉 I am tempted by the Upper Body Shield they offer. At $70, it’s a pretty good price for a chainmail coif. 😀 Oddly, their one legitimate ESD garment, the ESD labcoat, is $195, which is severely overpriced. But do check this out if you want a laugh.

http://www.lessemf.com/

More specifically EIRP is a function of antenna power and gain:

Equivalent Isotropically Radiated Power (EIRP) is the product of transmitter power and the antenna gain in a given direction relative to an isotropic antenna of a radio transmitter. Normally the EIRP is given in dBi, or decibels over isotropic. It can also be given in Watts.

I am tempted by the Upper Body Shield they offer. At $70, it’s a pretty good price for a chainmail coif.

Hm. Maybe I should re-think this knitting-with-wire stuff. How many could I produce in a week?

A while back, I came across a website offering ESD materials and garments for those who believe proper grounding and RF shielding is essential to one’s health. Perhaps ChemE would appreciate it.

ChemE linked to the same site back at comment #375 (bravo, sir!). The Upper Body Shield is just the thing for your Monty-Python-Holy-Grail cosplay.

sadmar: “A 1970’s Dremel?”

Yes, that is one reason why I really want to find it. After the insanity of the winter holidays, I plan to go through the rooms that dear daughter left stuff. I managed to find a small spool of black thread in one, which will be used in a sewing project today or tomorrow (I am steaming garments right now to set in the acid dye).

Chris, you’re making me feel guilty. I have so much stuff stacked on the table in the sewing room that I’d need a guide dog and a Ouija board to find anything.

Shay:

Alas, the coif isn’t knitted. It looks like real chainmail, which is pretty awesome. I was in the SCA in college, and one of the other participants was working on a coif, bringing it along to every meeting. Meticulously linking ring to ring with a pair of pliers. It was very slow work.

For Lord of the Rings, the costumers found a cheaper version — they cut PVC pipe into rings and then linked that. The pipe is flexible enough you can link it without the pliers, and the result is much lighter but looks perfect.

Hm. Maybe I should re-think this knitting-with-wire stuff. How many could I produce in a week?

I’m not sure if I ever mentioned the orgone blanket a good buddy of mine made in college, really as a gag, but he passed it off as part of an assignment. Oh, Evergreen.

It currently still resides, as far as I know, with another “Greener” friend with whom I am perhaps even a little bit closer. I have so far refused to sleep on it, but the very elderly cat, Zoe, seems to like it.

^ You might want to look up “orgone” and read about “orgone boxes” if you want to be able to figure out why an “orgone blanket” is relevant to the discussion at hand.

Crazy guy, Wilhelm Reich. I hear he used to hang out with Bill Burroughs back in the day.

Shay: “I have so much stuff stacked on the table in the sewing room that I’d need a guide dog and a Ouija board to find anything.”

That describes my daughter’s recently vacated bedroom, and my sewing area after she has been in it. I have been spending that last few months plowing through it, hence the projects.

If anyone here has a dog, and a Dremel, the latter is awesome for grinding down nails. We have a giant Newfie and a Golden Retriever, and I don’t ever cut their nails, just grind. That’s my PSA for the day.

It’s all a matter of perspective. Our previous Newf (RIP) weighed only 130ish lbs. This one is closer to 150 lbs.

We call the gormless one Chrissy Snow. The resemblance is uncanny.

I dunno the couple of giant Newfies from a block over, who still managed to be escape artists, might have also been gormless, or maybe just completely lacking in the ability to judge size.

We kept telling them our pair of Chihuahua’s who would chase them out of the yard with complete abandon and with startling efficiency were snack sized but they never seemed to understand the concept.

“Crazy guy, Wilhelm Reich. I hear he used to hang out with Bill Burroughs back in the day.”

Pseudo-science can be a lot of fun when it’s not scamming people out of their money or health, and functions as a kind of art project instead. I’ve never gotten into Reich, but from a distance he seems like the kind of crazy I appreciate.

One of my former students spent a lot of time at his family’s second home on a lake in Maine. One day he mentioned they were just down their place road from a museum devoted to some crazy guy… Turns out it’s Orgonon, the Reich museum, and the kid (well, he was in his mid-20’s and had moved to L.A. at the time) had never been there and had no idea who Reich was. Sigh. What a wasted opportunity.

Obligatory song:

More specifically EIRP is a function of antenna power and gain

I already know that, dipshіt. It’s become quite clear, however, that you don’t know what it means, which – in your case particularly – is nothing at all. You seem to think you can use it as some sort of multiplier, as evidenced by utterly brain-dead comments such as these:

A few billion watts of EIRP microwave radiation centered over that autism cluster with 224+ overlapping high gain antennas.

and

Same reason a relatively low power focused flashlight beam can blind you with light, that is high EIRP.

and

For example, LA County has approx 14.5 billion watts of EIRP radiation in the overhead atmosphere from pulsed radars and high gain microwave earthstations.

There is no such thing as “EIRP radiation.”

If you’re now done with the copying and pasting, could you please get back to questions you’ve been posed in comments 450 and 484? You’ve already been given hints on both, by me and by palindrom.

“The peak power of the NEXRAD is 1 Megawatt (1×106 Watts) and it employs a directional antenna with a mainbeam gain of 45 dBi; resulting in a transmitted signal power level of 32 Gigawatts. The NEXRAD has a maximum duty cycle of 0.21 percent and a minimum duty cycle of 0.05 percent. Additional information related to ground-based weather radars can be found in ITU-R Recommendation M.1849.14”

I can see where this could have misled you, but the fact of the matter remains that you cannot get more power out of a transmitting antenna than you put in to start with.

The Machine That Goes Ping!
The NEXRAD WSR-88D, when operating with the long pulse period, delivers an energy density at 100 metres of around 1.8 joules (0.43 calories) per square metre per ping (assuming 100% of the output power being is delivered with uniform density in a conical beam of 0.95 degrees).

you cannot get more power out of a transmitting antenna than you put in to start with

You mean an ideal passive antenna can never have a true power gain of more than 0 dB? Stupid laws of nature.

A few years back I was at a military power sources conference. Four of us were having lunch when one of the party launched a minor tirade about some evil Democratic politician who was rejecting the possibility of some over-unity device. The guy had an MSc in electrical something. The rest of us, including the guy who struggled with Ohm’s law, mumbled awkwardly and poked at our cheese steaks.

You mean an ideal passive antenna can never have a true power gain of more than 0 dB?

I’m still waiting for an analysis of ohmic losses in that well-known “very good conductor,” the bloodstream. I suspect that coagulating the albumin (to which half of the mighty Ca is bound) might change the properties of the transmission line.

But this is how electrocution works, right?

The NEXRAD WSR-88D, when operating with the long pulse period, delivers an energy density at 100 metres of around 1.8 joules (0.43 calories) per square metre per ping (assuming 100% of the output power being is delivered with uniform density in a conical beam of 0.95 degrees).

You’re forgetting about the ubiquitous refocusing of the “diffracted focused beam” by ducting. Which itself somehow seems to be isotroptic in the “beautiful thing,” because clusters.

I went through a 2 year period where Kate Bush was everything. Alles klar, herr doktor bimler?

I wish I knew how to post pictures of Dylan (Newf) and Chrissy Snow (not her real name) because they are the stupidest, kindest, most child-tolerant dogs ever. Did I mention, stupid? Thank God for $500 canister vacuums.

JP, I loved The Lion and the Cobra. Jackie, Drink Before the War, Just Like U Said It Would Be, the whole album is burned into my 16 year old brain.

Joules is Energy not Power so you are not comparing apples to apples.

Power (Watts) can knock you on your butt.

Give me NEXRAD peak pulsed power density @ 100 meters distance along with average power density @ 100 meters

Easy calc. If you have a problem I can do it.

Mohammad Ali’s punches delivered lots of power but he used very little energy because he was so fast.

Doug & Narad,

Did you guys ever see the movie dumb and dumber?

Very funny, you should see it!

Give me NEXRAD peak pulsed power density @ 100 meters distance along with average power density @ 100 meters

How about you do that?

Defibrillator.

I wanna know how to protect my precious bodily metallic calcium from oxidation.

Lithium seems to help. For me, anyway.

Joules is Energy not Power so you are not comparing apples to apples.

Power (Watts) can knock you on your butt.

Power is the rate of using energy. You cannot get more energy out of a transmitting antenna than you put in to start with. As I’ve noted, you appear to be fixated on the dismayingly stupid notion that EIRP can be used backwards.

Give me NEXRAD peak pulsed power density @ 100 meters distance along with average power density @ 100 meters

Easy calc. If you have a problem I can do it.

I’ve already offered you a very simple problem in comment 450. I suggest that you “do it” rather than blabbering about online calculators that you don’t understand in the first place.

Then again, I’d be fascinated to see you work your own “question” out by hand rather than by using online calculators that you don’t understand.

Truly, one of the finest songwriters of his generation. Played this at my old man’s funeral, though his eyes were blue.

Y’all are going at cross purposes.

Yes, an antenna fed with, say, 40W cannot put more than 40W of RF into the ‘ether’. Yes, an antenna can focus that power in one particular direction or in a particular pattern so that, in a particular vector from the antenna, you can measure a higher (or lower) field strength than you would expect from isotropic antenna.

ChemE seems to think that, say, 10 or 12 satellite uplinks, which can have quite high EIRP, can do a u-turn in mid air, the beams will all add up, come back down and give kids autism or boil the ocean. This is silly. Link margins aren’t that high, and if such a thing happened, there would be regular uplink outages that somebody would have noticed.

Also, there is no way I’m aware of that any amount of RF can cause autism, or anything like it. Yes, high RF fields can cause biological problems, but those problems are well known.

And I’ll play music, too
For a 30 year old video, it’s not too bad.

Mohammad Ali’s punches delivered lots of power but he used very little energy because he was so fast.

That explains the puniness of his musculature. And why boxers never break a sweat.

ChemE seems to think that, say, 10 or 12 satellite uplinks, which can have quite high EIRP, can do a u-turn in mid air, the beams will all add up, come back down and give kids autism or boil the ocean.

You’re missing the part where launch angle has nothing to do with ducting.

Mohammad Ali’s punches delivered lots of power but he used very little energy because he was so fast.

Err… Kinetic energy (that is, being fast) is half mass x squared speed.
That is, the faster you are, the much more energy you expand.
Now, if you want to say that Mohammad Ali was very efficient at delivering his punches…

tl;dr: so now there is something as a free launch?

As it happens, Ali and I used to (separately) frequent the same Middle Eastern joint. Never met him. Anyway,

so now there is something as a free launch?

Depends on who you know. But it occurs to me that ChemE has yet to do anything like whomping up a genuinely qualitative map of the vibrations.*

* Not actually a Tannerin (which is also not to be confused with the calcium-rich Terramin; I take it the further directions to Calcium Station are clear).

Johnny
“ChemE seems to think that, say, 10 or 12 satellite uplinks, which can have quite high EIRP, can do a u-turn in mid air, the beams will all add up, come back down and give kids autism or boil the ocean. This is silly.”

Actually there are 224 satellite earth station antennas in the area. The microwave earth station radiation bounces off commercial aircraft just like microwave radar does, much of it is the same frequency range. Average power to many Earth Stations are similar to average power of many pulsed radars. Gains are very similar.

Duh

The LA area autism cluster wraps around LA Airport, Santa Monica Airport and Burbank. Over 4000 flights each day in the area. Autism map overlays shockingly well with the high gain microwave earth stations, high power, high gain pulsed radars and high gain microwave relay paths.

https://sdsimonson.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/set.png

RF and Autism
http://www.marthaherbert.org/library/Herbert-Sage-2013-Autism-EMF-PlausibilityPathophysiologicalLink-Part11.pdf

My formula for autism

Autism Rate = k(MW path loss) + k(MW reflected off airplanes)

I am still working on k

Could you please just go away rather than embarrassing yourself further?

As it happens, Ali and I used to (separately) frequent the same Middle Eastern joint.

Oh yeah, I remember that.

Autism Rate = k(MW path loss) + k(MW reflected off airplanes)

Explain again why you think you have any understanding of math or statistics, let alone understanding of anything relating to autism.

ChemE:

Actually there are 224 satellite earth station antennas in the area. The microwave earth station radiation bounces off commercial aircraft just like microwave radar does, much of it is the same frequency range. Average power to many Earth Stations are similar to average power of many pulsed radars. Gains are very similar.

This does not change Johnny’s point. You are thinking that this relatively small number of transmitters aiming tight beams out into space cause massive amounts of RF on the ground. This is patently absurd. You are arguing that nearly their entire output is not reaching space, is consistently being reflected back by aircraft, which against all expectations is apparently focusing it on individuals on the ground rather than further scattering it. And somehow it is focusing it on every individual, not just one, and maybe I missed something, but I don’t see where you demonstrated how that can happen. Nor why this isn’t noticed; you’d think there’d be constant satellite uplink outages, plus so much ground interfererence that the use of radio devices would be impossible. Bye-bye Bluetooth.

Yes, RF can be reflected. Yes, RF can be focused as it is reflected. Yes, field strength can be much higher in the resulting beam. But for your claim to work, it would somehow have to be focused on every person who goes on to develop autism. At the same time. You do not see why this is absurd?

It’s a bit like saying that because a flashlight can be painful to look at, streetlights are the leading cause of blindness, by calculating the total light output of all of them and then calculating what would happen if you concentrated that all on one person, then going on to claim that somehow this is being concentrated on all the people who develop blindness. At once.

ChemE: “Mohammad Ali’s punches delivered lots of power but he used very little energy because he was so fast.”

Please return your college diploma to your engineering college for that egregious display of idiocy pertaining to freshman physics and sophomore mechanics/dynamics (I still have my 1974 edition. That shows you should be no where near any engineering group.

Could you please just go away …

Actually, I’d rather like to see his calculation for the peak power density at 100 m from the weather radar. I haz prediction.

photographic film

Calli Arcale
“This does not change Johnny’s point. You are thinking that this relatively small number of transmitters aiming tight beams out into space cause massive amounts of RF on the ground. This is patently absurd. You are arguing that nearly their entire output is not reaching space, is consistently being reflected back by aircraft, which against all expectations is apparently focusing it on individuals on the ground rather than further scattering it. And somehow it is focusing it on every individual, not just one, and maybe I missed something, but I don’t see where you demonstrated how that can happen. Nor why this isn’t noticed; you’d think there’d be constant satellite uplink outages, plus so much ground interfererence that the use of radio devices would be impossible. Bye-bye Bluetooth. Yes, RF can be reflected. Yes, RF can be focused as it is reflected. Yes, field strength can be much higher in the resulting beam. But for your claim to work, it would somehow have to be focused on every person who goes on to develop autism. At the same time. You do not see why this is absurd? It’s a bit like saying that because a flashlight can be painful to look at, streetlights are the leading cause of blindness, by calculating the total light output of all of them and then calculating what would happen if you concentrated that all on one person, then going on to claim that somehow this is being concentrated on all the people who develop blindness. At once.”

“Cause massive amounts of RF ”

Not massive, and it is MW not RF just:

5 times the microwave radiation the typical area gets in refracted radiation due to 5x high gain microwave earth stations than other areas

5-10 times the typical area gets due to 5-10x the number of high gain microwave relay towers overhead

4000 x times the intermittent reflected radiation the normal area gets due to low flying aircraft taking off/landing from 3 busy airports along with 4 high gain airport radars.

Imagine all of those parabolic microwave transmitters were actually transmitting visible light (radiation) like a focused searchlight (only fixed azimuth, zenith, except for radars @ 15 RPM). The visible light reaching your eyes from the overhead beams would be similar to the extra microwave radiation scatter. You can see a searchlight beam even though it is not pointed at you right??

“You are arguing that nearly their entire output is not reaching space” No I am not, Johnny said that. Only the part of the beam that the aircraft passes through at whatever power density/distance it is at gets reflected. Johnny appears to be more concerned about signal strength reaching the satellite. I never said the satellite signal drops out. The “budget” of a microwave satellite transmitter is set high enough so that the signal rarely drops out. If I put a mirror in the sky only the visible radiation hitting the mirror reflects back at whatever power density and reflectivity coefficient..

“consistently being reflected” It will vary with atmospheric conditions and overhead aircraft and pollution. It will change all the time. If you leave a light on it radiates and refracts and reflects all of the time right?

“And somehow it is focusing it on every individual” Where did I say that? The research paper is based upon almost a decade of autism rates. I am saying that if you live in the area of that autism cluster your cumulative microwave exposure is higher over time due to all of the antennas and it will vary from day to day.

https://emfscientist.org/index.php/emf-scientist-appeal
“Numerous recent scientific publications have shown that EMF affects living organisms at levels well below most international and national guidelines. Effects include increased cancer risk, cellular stress, increase in harmful free radicals, genetic damages, structural and functional changes of the reproductive system, learning and memory deficits, neurological disorders, and negative impacts on general well-being in humans. Damage goes well beyond the human race, as there is growing evidence of harmful effects to both plant and animal life.”

BTW, Beverly Hills High School, located in the middle of that microwave cluster also has a high cancer rate

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=125066

Chris

ChemE: “Mohammad Ali’s punches delivered lots of power but he used very little energy because he was so fast.”

Another analogy a structural engineer might understand:

Water is Energy
Flowrate of Water is Power

I can turn a fire hose on for 1/2 second and knock you on your ass and use very little energy(water) but hit you with lots of power (high flowrate)

Same amount of energy (water) over a 10 second period (low flowrate/power) will only bathe you. 🙂

Airplanes can reflect microwaves, sure enough. It’s how RADAR works. It’s also true that the energy is scattered in many directions, including back towards the children living on earth.

But the question then becomes how much energy is reflected? As I note above, I’ve never worked with RADAR, but I have worked with terrestrial MW and SATCOM receivers, and I understand the front ends aren’t much different. Those signals are relatively weak, and well below the strength needed to have a biological effect. But, hey, ChemE is going to post plots showing dozens of spikes 30dB above background, because he’s going to boldly go where none have gone before – out in the rain.

As far as the paper ChemE referenced in #542, I’ve only scanned it, but I note that most of the references are to RF in the cellular portion of the spectrum – 800 to 900MHz or so. There is only 1 reference in the paper to “GHz”. That reference can be found, in part, here –
http://www.jstor.org/stable/3578501?origin=crossref&seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

I can’t copy from the page, but they were testing the effects of 80mW/sq. cm at 2.45GHZ for 30 minuets. Guess what, it has an effect. I’m far from convinced the effect is autism, as the portion of the paper I saw didn’t mention autism, but , yeah, that much RF will do bad things to your bodily functions.

Please tell me you have more than that silly paper.

ChemE:
The thing we’re all trying to get you to understand is that you do not see what it is you are actually saying.

““And somehow it is focusing it on every individual” Where did I say that? The research paper is based upon almost a decade of autism rates. I am saying that if you live in the area of that autism cluster your cumulative microwave exposure is higher over time due to all of the antennas and it will vary from day to day.”

You are claiming that there is sufficient RF from all of these sources to cause health problems. You are invoking refraction, reflection, and ducting in order to somehow get sufficient* RF to people to cause autism, which means that yes, you are claiming that it is focused on them. You just don’t realize that’s what the words you are using mean. How can it be ducted and refracted and reflected in such a way as to put this much power on one person (which in itself is pretty unlikely, given we’re talking about a random event) and *also* put that much power on everybody else in the areas that you’ve circled on your maps?

Now do you see why it is absurd? Probably not.

You obviously paid enough attention to my flashlight analogy to make a searchlight analogy of your own. Yes, I agree we can see searchlights. Not very well, since very little of the light they produce is scattered towards us. But they do not blind us, do they? The light scattered from them is trivial. A miniscule fraction of what they put out. Likewise, the RF scattered by an aircraft passing over a Doppler radar station is miniscule. Even the beam of an AESA radar array associated with a surface-to-air missile battery is not that strong, and it’s actively painting the target.

Seriously, man. You are embarrassing yourself here.

*Ignoring, of course, that there is no known mechanism by which any dose of RF can cause autism. That’s just another thing you’ve not bothered to explore.

Cali:

“Even the beam of an AESA radar array associated with a surface-to-air missile battery is not that strong, and it’s actively painting the target. Seriously, man. You are embarrassing yourself here.”

What? Not that Strong?

https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htecm/20121104.aspx
AESA is able to focus a concentrated beam of radio energy that could damage electronic components of a distant target. The air force won’t, for obvious reasons, discuss the exact “kill range” of the various models of AESA radars on American warplanes (the F-35 and F-22 have them)

You should be embarrassed. Especially since there is a cancer cluster in small children around the AESA/antenna pattern test facility in Newport, NY

https://www.change.org/p/charles-schumer-monitor-the-newport-antenna-radiation-pattern-measurement-facility-and-stop-all-radiation-testing-until-an-environmental-impact-assessment-is-done?recruiter=129780765&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink

Although autism spectrum conditions (ASCs) are defined behaviorally, they also involve multileveled disturbances of underlying biology that find striking parallels in the physiological impacts of electromagnetic frequency and radiofrequency exposures (EMF/RFR). Part I of this paper will review the critical contributions pathophysiology may make to the etiology, pathogenesis and ongoing generation of core features of ASCs. We will review pathophysiological damage to core cellular processes that are associated both with ASCs and with biological effects of EMF/RFR exposures that contribute to chronically disrupted homeostasis. Many studies of people with ASCs have identified oxidative stress and evidence of free radical damage, cellular stress proteins, and deficiencies of antioxidants such as glutathione. Elevated intracellular calcium in ASCs may be due to genetics or may be downstream of inflammation or environmental exposures. Cell membrane lipids may be peroxidized, mitochondria may be dysfunctional, and various kinds of immune system disturbances are common. Brain oxidative stress and inflammation as well as measures consistent with blood-brain barrier and brain perfusion compromise have been documented. Part II of this paper will review how behaviors in ASCs may emerge from alterations of electrophysiological oscillatory synchronization, how EMF/RFR could contribute to these by de-tuning the organism, and policy implications of these vulnerabilities. Changes in brain and autonomic nervous system electrophysiological function and sensory processing predominate, seizures are common, and sleep disruption is close to universal. All of these phenomena also occur with EMF/RFR exposure that can add to system overload (‘allostatic load’) in ASCs by increasing risk, and worsening challenging biological problems and symptoms; conversely, reducing exposure might ameliorate symptoms of ASCs by reducing obstruction of physiological repair. Various vital but vulnerable mechanisms such as calcium channels may be disrupted by environmental agents, various genes associated with autism or the interaction of both. With dramatic increases in reported ASCs that are coincident in time with the deployment of wireless technologies, we need aggressive investigation of potential ASC – EMF/RFR links. The evidence is sufficient to warrant new public exposure standards benchmarked to low-intensity (non-thermal) exposure levels now known to be biologically disruptive, and strong, interim precautionary practices are advocated.

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/antennas-shock-danger.34604/
“Aboard my ship there were several low frequency ‘flagpole’ antenna the danger line around those was 7 feet in radius. On the other hand, locking our illuminating radar onto groups of seagulls several miles away would cause them to panic and scatter.”

A friend of mine was in the military and they locked their radar on some seagulls close to the ship and they caught fire.

So live in your protective bubble Cali.

ChemE: “Water is Energy”

Bzzzt… failure to understand a crucial part of the potential energy you are implying. Please return your college diploma to the engineering program that gave your degree.

Still wrong, I said potential energy. Also, the water is the mass of the equation, and is not actually “energy.” To repeat your exact words “Water is Energy.”

Dear Spouse of ChemE: please start investigating memory care facilities for your spouse, as this person is forgetting crucial concepts taught to engineers during their first two years of college.

Chris,

Water is energy at its most fundamental level and when energy flows it produces power. Nice analogy I thought, your ridgedness.

Water is Energy

We’re getting dangerously close to homeopathy here.

UV-curing adhesive

Well, he does have more than one silly paper to “prove” that RF can cause autism – he has three silly papers.

The first of the links #558 is to a 606 page “Radiofrequency Radiation Research Summary Updated March 29, 2014”, and the second is to not dissimilar “Radiofrequency Radiation Free Radical Studies Updated March 2014”.

Can you guess the total number of times the word ‘autism’ appears in both cites? Did you guess ‘zero’? I knew you could.

Listen, idiot – nobody denies that high field strength RF fields can cause biological problems, and especially not me. But there is no reason to think that the amount of RF in our environment can cause autism. Yes, you found a correlation in one place between the number of transmitters and the prevalence of autism. Now show us some pretty pictures of the spectrum on the ground from 3 or 4 locations in that area that show large spikes from multiple transmitters. I have a dollar that says you don’t have any.

And keeping the music going –

it is MW not RF

Microwaves are RF, genius.

5 times the microwave radiation the typical area gets in refracted radiation due to 5x high gain microwave earth stations than other areas

You appear to once again be conflating your weather-radar ducting routine with satellite uplinks, all the while ignoring the critical angle.

E(water)= M(water) * c^2

Buzzkill

More like brain death.

ChemE: ” Nice analogy I thought, your ridgedness.”

I am sorry but the rules of Newtonian are not yours to bend, especially since the math works quite well at this scale.

“Water is energy at its most fundamental level and when energy flows it produces power.”

Explain why a siphon only works in one direction. What would you need to do to get one to start and continue, and why would it slow down? What is a very important design component that makes hydroelectric dams work?

Oops, left out a word:

“rules of Newtonian physics

ChemE: “E(water)= M(water) * c^2”

Not pertinent to the scale of water power, which is still in the range where Newtonian equations work.

A friend of mine was in the military and they locked their radar on some seagulls close to the ship and they caught fire.

Your friend was pulling your leg.

A friend of mine was in the military and they locked their radar on some seagulls close to the ship and they caught fire.

This happened in the Bermuda Triangle?

“Theory” is a kinder label than the item linked at #572 deserves. It’s speculation about possible connections, published _Medical Hypotheses_ a decade ago. Long-time readers here are aware of _Medical Hypotheses_ and its willingness to print blue-sky speculations, but even if you’d never heard of the journal until you found that link, you’re ignoring that a hypothesis isn’t evidence of anything.

Medical Hypotheses has a paywall?! I’d be in favor of that, if it had to pay to get out.

Another theory paper on autism and RF. I previously posted another

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/14962625/

Medical Hypotheses? ……..

Excuse me a minute while I finish laughing.

This is clearly the last nail in the coffin for any presumption that you might have even the vaguest clue about anything to do with science.

Medical Hypotheses was well known as the place where all the most batshït insane ideas went to die. It got so bad that the publisher pulled the plug and sacked the editor in 2010 and then re-instituted the journal with peer review.

ChemE – Ya know, I didn’t think there was anything to your MW-autism link after looking at your cite #542, why do you think posting the same F*CKL!NG PAPER at #573 would change my mind? ITS NOT ANOTHER PAPER, ITS THE SAME STUPID ONE!!!!11!!!!

Medical Hypotheses? ……..

Excuse me a minute while I finish laughing.

Robert Kane is also the author of Cellular Telephone Russian Roulette* which appears to be available in all its glory from a fan.

* Based on the cover, I was inclined to take the last two words to be a subtitle and and a colon. And then I spent even longer writing a footnote about it. Must. Stop.

Based on the cover, I was inclined to take the last two words to be a subtitle and and a colon. And then I spent even longer writing a footnote about it. Must. Stop.

Aw, come on. You do have a professional translator on call.

I think Johnny had a bad spell.

Many scientific discoveries start out as a hypothesis.

Rock on with your microwave radiation dudes. Ignorance is bliss. They are good for you.

Catch you down the road.

A friend of mine was in the military and they locked their radar on some seagulls close to the ship and they caught fire.

This happened in the Bermuda Triangle?

The performance is more fully fleshed out here (the comments run from bottom to top).

Narad: “To wit, see the Taylor series expansion of the actual relativistic formula for kinetic energy.”

Which is still not part of the scale that improves upon Newtonian physics equations. Those extra bits contribute too little. ChemE still does not understand how potential energy pertains to water’s force (and energy) in a hose.

You realize that he is unable to answer a freshman physics question. In some school districts this is taught in high school. I can usually sift out the science poseurs when they get confused between potential and kinetic energy. This guy doesn’t even know the definition!

I am not joking about memory care. It is like a good chunk of his basics of science memory has been thrown into the Memory Dump (I recently watched Inside Out). In this movie it is the place in the brain where memory (and knowledge) are tossed after not being retrieved, and are no longer available for recall.

The creators of this movie did consult real scientists, and there really is snipping of memories, just follow Dr. Steven Novella on his blogs and podcast. There are conditions that accelerate the snipping, and then it gets to be a real problem. Sometimes it is dramatic like my grandmother not recognizing my mother as her daughter after her stroke, or it can be quite subtle like ChemE forgetting the math/science/engineering basics from his/her first two years of college.

Last night a friend who lives over an hour away stayed overnight to be able to get to a morning appointment in our city. Her mother’s last years were spent in a memory care facility. Though her ninety year old father is still almost unimpaired. Though a wee bit slower than when he was my structural dynamics professor in the aero/astro engineering department where I got my college degree.

Trust me, Narad: the forces that act on any moving vehicle from the city bus to the planes going in and out of O’Hare can be calculated accurately using the math of Newtonian physics. You really do not need to go relativistic (the teeny change in clocks in an airplane do not change their function nor their timeliness… being two hours late has nothing to do with relativity – that is usually because of weather or mechanical issues).

Many scientific discoveries start out as a hypothesis.

Hey, who am I?

Waterspouts and tornadoes and hurricanes have cold dark matter along their eyewalls in my model, which are really domain walls. They are all vacuum disturbances, not just a temperature disturbance. They decay and give of “dark energy” That is why you get “hook echoes” when you point a radar at a tornado as the atmosphere bends the radiation. Basically tornadoes are small wormholes that evaporate and decay.

Simple concept.

Allow me to quote Sabine Hossenfelder:

In physics, all theories have to be expressed in [the] form of a consistent mathematical description.

Yes, yes, the birds were cooked by the “100 million watts of pulsed EM radiation blah blah blah …”
Cripes, I think they were killed by time-tunneling burning stupidity.

Chris,

Siphons work with water primarily due to gravity, unless the water is in the form of steam in which case a vacuum works better.

Trust me, Narad: the forces that act on any moving vehicle from the city bus to the planes going in and out of O’Hare can be calculated accurately using the math of Newtonian physics.

I know that, which is why only the leading term in the Taylor expansion is relevant. It’s not clear to me why you’re focused on potential energy; the mechanical power P = dK/dt.

ChemE’s “analogy” seems to boil down to Microwammed Ali running around delivering “punches” (viz., pulses) to specific individuals. Given that “the ‘average’ power of 1.5 kW is meaningless,” its logical extension would seem to have to be that everyone is just getting a nice massage.

Chris, can you call yourself an engineer in the US without actually holding a degree from a recognized university? I’m suspicious his education is, at best, a 2 year tech diploma of some sort.
Right from the outset I had a sense of him being a taker-and-putter of words, without comprehending their meaning. He may just be slow on the uptake, but he clearly couldn’t connect my remark about current causing increased oxidation except when it doesn’t and his own mention of cathodic protection (which I know a good deal about, from the perspective of having designed several high-performance controllers for CP systems – he gave the impression he’d only heard about CP done with sacrificial anodes, which I’ve encountered in others with limited knowledge)
I don’t think he’s forgotten stuff, I think he never knew it in the first place.

ChemE’s first comment at the Garden Island is more hilarious than I realized at first, though:

Avg RF Power Density @ 1300′ feet from radar during ducting event: 46 watts/sq meter

Yes, “ducting event” is a magic incantation that turns everything into EIRP without that messy business about actual variations in refractive index.

I’m suspicious his education is, at best, a 2 year tech diploma of some sort.

No, his L—In profile is easy enough to find, but it’s not really relevant. My baccalaureate* is two years’ fresher than his, but it seems to be serving better even at this late date.

* Physics.

The air force won’t, for obvious reasons, discuss the exact “kill range” of the various models of AESA radars on American warplanes (the F-35 and F-22 have them)

In the course of an erratic education I once learned that the arena of naval conflict (at least in 1923) was between the ZZ rays discovered by British boffins and the inimical Ultra-K beams that the Boche had learned to generate.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kAp25Q6UIQA/UHZ2MJzeJSI/AAAAAAAAJu8/HDtK-ECAnU0/s1600/woww1.jpg

“Ultra-K” rays may sound like a breakfast cereal but were in fact a form of directable radiation that could destroy ships at distances of hundreds of leagues — even Ships of the Line, even Dreadnaughts! — by heating their constituent metals to incandescent temperatures and causing explosives to detonate. They were the EMP weapons and directed X-Ray beams of the day. Able to wipe the Royal Navy off the waves, seemingly the Huns had attained supremacy of the sea.

In the end the day was saved by using the skills of old to build a fleet of wooden ships stripped of all metal parts and sending them against the Ultra-K stations, carrying a fighting force of plucky British lads clad in leather armour and wielding longbows as in the days of Agincourt.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-1zvkr75y-6s/UHZy9P1qgkI/AAAAAAAAJuo/3Rns8hvP7Tg/s1600/woww.jpg

Johnny:

“Now show us some pretty pictures of the spectrum on the ground from 3 or 4 locations in that area that show large spikes from multiple transmitters. I have a dollar that says you don’t have any.”

https://sdsimonson.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/sm-autism-radar-power.png

Includes avg. power density from microwave earth stations and pulsed microwave radars (relay towers and added aircraft reflection not included)

I like the way you think.

Can you wire the money?

Although autism spectrum conditions (ASCs) are defined behaviorally, they also involve multileveled disturbances of underlying biology that find striking parallels in the physiological impacts of electromagnetic frequency and radiofrequency exposures (EMF/RFR). Part I of this paper will review the critical contributions pathophysiology may make to the etiology, pathogenesis and ongoing generation of core features of ASCs….

Please put the biology down and step away; this is as painful to read for me as your babbling about EMRs is to others. There is no such thing as an “ASC”. What are you going to “review” when you haven’t even put forth a coherent hypothesis and evidence for it?

ChemE’s still going at it? Wow.

Quick question, ChemE. At what frequency does damage stop occurring, per your notions?

Todd,

I think it is a broad range of frequencies but it is more related overall exposure/absorbtion over time.

A little radiation is good for you in the short term

Nobody leaves Earth alive sort of thing.

Johnny, BTW I accept PayPal, let me know when you are ready

@ChemE

So what is that range? Give me a low end and a high end, along with your reasoning for your cutoffs.

Todd,

I have researched primarily the 1.3 GHz to ~ 18 GHz carrier frequency range from an environmental wildlife/human disease cluster standpoint and I see strong evidence of a problem near high power/high gain transmitters. That includes microwave earth stations, pulsed microwave radars and microwave relay towers. I have over 500 maps on my blog in case you really want to know. I have not studied cell towers/AM/FM, which are mostly lower frequencies. Those links I gave yesterday have lots of related studies in the lower frequencies.

@ChemE #599

If you think reposting that same old picture of transmitter locations is now “the spectrum on the ground” , you are done dumb $3!t.

With apologies to Robert Hunter

Rat in a drain ditch
Stupid little boy
We know better but
A new chew toy
Like I told you
What I said
Sucks your brains
right outta your head

Now he’s dumb
Now he’s dumb
Lord he’s dumb
He’s dumb
Like a box of hammers
sittin’ in the rain
He’s dumb
Dumb
His cites don’t prove a thing
He’s dumb

Nine mile skid
on a ten mile ride
Dumb as a brick
but nothin’ inside
Cat on a tin roof
Dogs in a pile
Nothing left to do but
smile, smile, smile

Now he’s dumb
Now he’s dumb
Lord he’s dumb
He’s dumb
Like a box of hammers
sittin’ in the rain
He’s dumb
He’s dumb
His cites don’t prove a thing
He’s dumb

Reposting cites that don’t prove $#!t
“Maybe this time, they won’t read a bit”
Post the same links that don’t show anything
Do it again and more of the same
Same old rat in a drain ditch
Stupid little boy
We know better but a new chew toy

Now he’s dumb
Lord he’s dumb
Like a box of hammers
sittin’ in the rain
He’s dumb
He’s dumb
his cites don’t prove a thing
He’s dumb…

Johnny,

No dummy, that is a non-isometric power density profile of power reaching the ground. For low angle dishes the power reaching the ground is actually higher a few miles away from the transmitter than it is around the dish itself. That is why you dummies never measure any radiation. You take the measurement when the weather is nice and near the dish.

It is a trigonometry thang….

You took that right?

See cone of silence:
https://www.meted.ucar.edu/sign_in.php?go_back_to=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.meted.ucar.edu%2Fradar%2Fbasic_wxradar%2Fmedia%2Fgraphics%2FKCCX_20120125_bref_0259Z.jpg##

Epic FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ChemE

Okay, so you don’t have an answer as far as at what frequency damage doesn’t occur.

Next question. I’m sure you’ve looked at historical data (i.e., decades old) identifying installation of new transmitters, correlating with jumps in autism cases?

Johnny’s Theme Song:

How do I microwave thee? Let me count the ways.
I microwave thee to the depth and breadth and height
My microwaves can penetrate, when remaining out of sight
For the ends of being and ideal grace.
I microwave thee to the level of every day’s
Most quiet need, by sun and by antenna.
I microwave thee freely, as men strive for right.
I microwave thee purely, as they turn from praise.
I microwave thee with the energy put to use
In my old griefs, and with my child’s health.
I microwave thee with a radiation I seem to lose track of
With my lost saints. I microwave thee with the breath,
Smiles, tears, of all my life; and, if God choose,
I shall but microwave thee better after death.

Adapted from:
How Do I Love Thee? (Sonnet 43)
Elizabeth Barrett Browning, 1806 – 1861

ChemE:

There you go, missing the point again in favor of grasping at a straw that doesn’t overtly contradict you.

“AESA is able to focus a concentrated beam of radio energy that could damage electronic components of a distant target. The air force won’t, for obvious reasons, discuss the exact “kill range” of the various models of AESA radars on American warplanes (the F-35 and F-22 have them)”

That’s if you are close to it, and it’s pointed directly at you. (“Painting the target”.) I’m saying the results of an AESA beam reflecting off the target isn’t strong enough to support your claims, and you’re making the claims about beams that aren’t that strongly focused and aren’t aimed at the aircraft. So if your claim doesn’t work for AESA, it definitely doesn’t work for anything less powerful or less focused. Plus . . . are you gonna claim that everybody lives at an AESA testing facility?

Your whole reasoning gives me reason to bring up one of Akin’s Laws of Spacecraft Design:

19. The odds are greatly against you being immensely smarter than everyone else in the field. If your analysis says your terminal velocity is twice the speed of light, you may have invented warp drive, but the chances are a lot better that you’ve screwed up.

http://spacecraft.ssl.umd.edu/akins_laws.html

You have computed absurd results, but rather than go back over your assumptions and your math, you’ve deemed yourself the unsung hero of the ages, the one person who has found the true cause of autism (and now apparently cancer, as you managed to drag that into your last post to me as well — because to you, cancer rates around AESA radar test sites support your assertion that cell phone towers cause autism).

But you haven’t. You’ve made errors in your assumptions, produced an absurd result, and then run with it insanely far. You are making a fool of yourself; the only reason people keep reading at this point is the entertainment value.

Golly, if we have radars that are capable of destroying targets remotely, why are we still wasting money on HE?

“Golly, if we have radars that are capable of destroying targets remotely, why are we still wasting money on HE?”

They figured out if the gain and power density was high enough they could kill things, including biological contaminants…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_warfare

Cali, a mile or two away for an AESA radar kill is far enough for me…Is that far enough for you? I never said cell phones cause autism, you just said that. Where did I say that. You sound foolish. Most cell towers are higher average power but low gain. I don’t think any EMF is really good for you but hey, I have an IPhone and a WiFi Router…

So Party On!

ChemE, once again missing the point and taking things waaaaaaaaaay past where they are meaningful.

An AESA radar does not kill at two miles (nor does the Wikipedia article on electronic warfare make any claim that it does; it discusses jamming, signals intelligence, and damage to sensitive electronics, not antipersonnel devices; the most likely way to harm a person through electronic warfare is by jamming their radar so they don’t see that you’re coming into range, or by damaging avionics resulting in a plane crash). And what it could theoretically be used to damage is sensitive electronic circuits, not people. It is disingenuous in the extreme to conflate “killing” a computer circuit with lethality.

Look. Have you ever taken ESD (electrostatic discharge) training? Do you know how little voltage it takes to damage a circuit? It’s far less than you can feel. Yet people take shocks orders of magnitude higher all the time with no harm whatsoever. Computers are *vastly* more sensitive to EM than human beings are. If an AESA radar could cause accidental emissions harmful to humans (remember, that is what you claimed — not that its focused beams’ maximum strength might be harmful, but that accidental emissions are causing cancer around AESA testing sites), then it would wipe out the flight computer controlling it.

And I know. My company makes some of those computers. I’ve *touched* those computers. They are way more sensitive than a person is, whcih is why I have to get mandatory ESD training every year. An electric shock too weak for me to feel could irrevocably damage it. (When the box is open. When it’s closed up and ready to be shipped to our customer to be put into an airplane, it has full Faraday protection.) In theory, an electronic warfare weapon could induce enough currents in the aircraft to get into the box and damage the circuits, but it would have to be a hell of a big surge. There are no weapons like that in service today, apart from nukes.

You said, “They figured out if the gain and power density was high enough they could kill things”. That’s true, but you have to remember the word “if” is in there. You need more than “it’s theoretically possible if there is enough power” before actually demonstrating in a link between RF sources and autism.

“I never said cell phones cause autism, you just said that.”

I apologize; it seems I got you confused with a discussion I was having elsewhere. You were arguing that *satellite transmission stations* were causing autism. That doesn’t really change my point, though. How does an absolute worst-case scenario based on *presumed* AESA capabilities against a designated target say anything at all to support your claim about RF signals from satellite communications stations occasionally bouncing off of airplanes causing autism?

Seriously. I mean, it’s almost like you’re claiming a homeopathic effect.

They figured out if the gain and power density was high enough …

More “potential voltage.” To repeat again reiteratively: no passive antenna has a true power gain greater than unity. “Gain” simply does not belong in the quoted bit.

Calli, just for your amusement:
Years ago there was an electrical engineering post-doc in my department at the Uni who told a tale of someone he knew who put a sparkgap at the back end of an appropriate piece of waveguide, mounted it on his car and connected the sparkgap to the car’s ignition. It emitted sufficient power to actually damage the front end of the police traffic radar of the day. The guy repaired police radar, so he ample opportunity to experiment.

In all the years I’ve coaxed, cajoled and bullied electrons to do my bidding, I’ve only once knowingly blown anything with ESD. I zapped a big spark into the metal case and took out the character generator ROM – the single most expensive and least available part in the whole thing. I have returned a large quantity of power MOSFETs and a few big electrolytic caps to the molecules whence they came, but not with ESD. The capacitors did not go quietly.

You didn’t answer the question, Chem…why are we still spending money on HE (high explosives) or 50mm cannon ammunition if we can destroy stuff with radar?

You take the measurement when the weather is nice and near the dish.

It is a trigonometry thang….

You took that right?

Funny that you can’t answer the question in comment 450, then.

Epic FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I’ll say.

I see strong evidence of a problem near high power/high gain transmitters

That’s because you’re too lazy, ignorant, or both to try to invalidate your notion: you start with the conclusion and then go looking for transmitters.

ChemE, here’s a nice easy problem for you to solve for us:

A Radar transmitter
1 megawatt delivered to the feed point of the antenna
1 degree beam angle; you may assume that the beam has uniform edge-to-edge power density and that no power is transmitted outside of the beam; assume a conical beam that begins at zero diameter at the “exit” from the antenna
You pick a value you think might be appropriate for antenna gain – something you think would be representative

Calculate the power density at 100 metres for the antenna “exit” point. Remember, show us your work. Some rounding is fine.

Johnny’s Theme Song:

How do I microwave thee? Let me count the ways.
I microwave thee to the depth and breadth and height
My microwaves can penetrate, when remaining out of sight
For the ends of being and ideal grace.
I microwave thee to the level of every day’s
Most quiet need, by sun and by antenna.
I microwave thee freely, as men strive for right.
I microwave thee purely, as they turn from praise.
I microwave thee with the energy put to use
In my old griefs, and with my child’s health.
I microwave thee with a radiation I seem to lose track of
With my lost saints. I microwave thee with the breath,
Smiles, tears, of all my life; and, if God choose,
I shall but microwave thee better after death.

Adapted from:
How Do I Love Thee? (Sonnet 43)
Elizabeth Barrett Browning, 1806 – 1861

*defenestrates*

“1 degree beam angle…You pick a value you think might be appropriate for antenna gain”

Sorry, that’s not possible. One value determines the other, assuming lobes other than the main one are sufficiently low amplitude.

Shush! rs – I intended this to be a test for ChemE. It relates to the first part of my comment at 614 and is something he has been repeatedly hammered with. He just doesn’t seem to “get it”, and I wanted to see how he dealt with it.

ChemE:

Because radar pathloss is too high and we irraditate everything around it… It is a shitty weapon and it is hard to direct all of the power where you want it due to the atmosphere wanting to scatter it.. Lots of collateral damage….

Oh, come on. So, because it’s not possible to effectively target an energy weapon to damage a target, they . . . manage to irradiate everything around them to an unacceptable degree? So, it both has insufficient and excessive power at the same time? You really are painting yourself into a corner here.

I said power density, not power. By increasing solar power density through gain (a parabolic dish) you are able to cook dinner!

*facepalm* And, once again, using focused electromagnetic radiation (in this case infrared light) to support your claims about diffuse radiation.

Well, you’re determined, I’ll give you that. I’m just not clear what you’re trying to accomplish.

Shush! rs – I intended this to be a test for ChemE.

Were it not for his “thang” remark, I would’ve said that this was unnecessary:

1 degree beam angle … assume a conical beam

As such, carry on. It’s not as though he’s likely to figure out what’s going on in any event.

ChemE,
Even if your understanding of physics was reality-based (which it clearly is not – that water/energy analogy is one of the worst I have every encountered), you still haven’t addressed the major problems with your hypothesis i.e. confounding factors. Given your flippant responses to mention of confounders previously I can only assume you do not understand the concept.

I suggest you read this and the following page in ‘Handbook of Autism and Pervasive Developmental Disorders’, paying particular attention to the description of preselection bias, the Texas Sharpshooter Effect and the methods for investigating clusters. Once you have gone through those further steps feel free to come back here and tell us how you got on. Otherwise it is pointless trying to convince anyone of your hypothesis, since you haven’t gone through even the very basic steps to test it.

While we wait for ChemE to come back with his completed assignment can we discuss my hypothesis?

Autism occurs when lapsed Catholics with latex allergies who received between zero and ten vaccines with Thimerosol are near a cell tower when a meteor show occurs during an aurora event while they are drinking fluoridated water and eating GMO food.

I’ve racked my brain for confounding factors and can’t come up with any. However, I did find several articles directly supporting my hypothesis. See: PubMed.

Oops: forgot the footnote! Insert an asterisk after GMO food. and

*Not all of these factors are required.

@ Calli Arcale

So, because it’s not possible to effectively target an energy weapon to damage a target, they . . . manage to irradiate everything around them to an unacceptable degree?

I have to admit, then you put it like this, one starts to wonder why the military would balk at using this hypothetical radar-based weapon while still using dangerous toys with a high degree of scatter like flame-throwers and high-explosive ordinances.
It’s not as if there are no applications for area-suppressing weapons. Also, radars seldom explode. The same cannot be said about napalm tanks or ammo depots.

“While we wait for ChemE to come back with his completed assignment can we discuss my hypothesis?”

I decided dumb and dumber should complete each other’s assignments since they appear to be excited about that sort of thing.
I suggest they included near field and far field effects side lobes, antenna losses, path losses, etc. so that they come up with a very good estimate of radiation variability at 100m. If they really want to jazz it up they should take it down to photons and virtual photons. Meanwhile unable to see the forest through the trees.

From Krebiozenstein

Even if your understanding of physics was reality-based (which it clearly is not – that water/energy analogy is one of the worst I have every encountered)”

Wow, all that from a girl who does not know the difference between a mW and a mA as displayed above

“I suggest you read this and the following page in ‘Handbook of Autism and Pervasive Developmental Disorders’, paying particular attention to the description of preselection bias,”

I had no bias until I ran statistics/null hypothesis indicating the dumbass electrical engineers were killing fish with their high gain antennas. All on my blog with years of data and statistics

“the Texas Sharpshooter Effect”

My spin on the Texas Sharpshooter Effect. If electrical engineers beam enough high power density radiation into the atmosphere that ricochets off everything they are bound to hit something. Mine is more an effect of not being able to shoot straight.

I also call it the “Ghostbusters Effect” See crossing the streams

“and the methods for investigating clusters. ”

The clusters of autism (and dead marine life) were determined by others – see unusual mortality events. I am just showing that clusters of autism/dead fish equals clusters of high gain microwave radiation transmitters

” Otherwise it is pointless trying to convince anyone of your hypothesis, since you haven’t gone through even the very basic steps to test it.”

I was not put here to convince you of anything, I was put here to make you feel uneasy about your assumption that microwave radiation is harmless. Sleep well.

@CHemE
“I was not put here to convince you of anything, I was put here to make you feel uneasy about your assumption that microwave radiation is harmless. Sleep well.”

You have not succeeded in making me any more uneasy about microwaves than General Ripper made me uneasy about fluoridated water.

And ChemE has again resorted to insults (really, ChemE, calling Krebiozen a girl? What are you, in 3rd grade?)

@Meg: Yeah, I’m so uneasy I’ve been microwaving all my meals since ChemE started to post. AND making sure my kids do, so that any children they give birth to are autistic.

Of course, ChemE doesn’t address WHY autism was first named in the 1930s, well before the proliferation of microwaves, radio waves, etc, nor why diagnostic substitution has occured.

ChemE,

Wow, all that from a girl who does not know the difference between a mW and a mA as displayed above

I’m not a girl, and given the context the Ma/Mw slip was obviously a typo. Are these pathetic insults all you have to defend your silly claims?

I had no bias until I ran statistics/null hypothesis indicating the dumbass electrical engineers were killing fish with their high gain antennas. All on my blog with years of data and statistics

Yet again you demonstrate that you simply do not understand what you are doing. Selection bias is what happens when you choose to investigate a cluster of autism cases.

My spin on the Texas Sharpshooter Effect. If electrical engineers beam enough high power density radiation into the atmosphere that ricochets off everything they are bound to hit something. Mine is more an effect of not being able to shoot straight.

I’m beginning (?) to think you are seriously intellectually impaired.

The clusters of autism (and dead marine life) were determined by others – see unusual mortality events. I am just showing that clusters of autism/dead fish equals clusters of high gain microwave radiation transmitters

Yet you are utterly oblivious to all the problems inherent in looking at clusters like this. It’s embarrassing to watch.

I was not put here to convince you of anything, I was put here to make you feel uneasy about your assumption that microwave radiation is harmless. Sleep well.

You have failed miserably. If someone who thinks you can set fire to seagulls with a radar and mangles analogies so horribly believes that microwaves are dangerous, I feel reassured if anything.

From Just Dawned on MI

“Of course, ChemE doesn’t address WHY autism was first named in the 1930s, well before the proliferation of microwaves, radio waves, etc, nor why diagnostic substitution has occured.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio
Today, radio takes many forms, including wireless networks and mobile communications of all types, as well as radio broadcasting. Before the advent of television, commercial radio broadcasts included not only news and music, but dramas, comedies, variety shows, and many other forms of entertainment (the era from the late 1920s to the mid-1950s is commonly called radio’s “Golden Age”). Radio was unique among methods of dramatic presentation in that it used only sound. For more, see radio programming.

OOPS, “Just Dawned on MI” failed History

ChemE has certainly managed to make a copious indelible record of his ineptitude.
It would have been better if we had all explicitly named him in each comment, as Narad does for the classical osteopath doofus.

From just Dawned on MI

“Of course, ChemE doesn’t address WHY autism was first named in the 1930s, well before the proliferation of microwaves, radio waves, etc, nor why diagnostic substitution has occured.”

Before the advent of television, commercial radio broadcasts included not only news and music, but dramas, comedies, variety shows, and many other forms of entertainment (the era from the late 1920s to the mid-1950s is commonly called radio’s “Golden Age”).

OOPS! Epic History Fail! *************************************

Oh, those horrible, horrible 1920’s AM radio transmitters with their millions of watts of power and their high gain antennas and their thousands of megacycles per second frequencies!

Krebiozenstein

“I’m not a girl, and given the context the Ma/Mw slip was obviously a typo. Are these pathetic insults all you have to defend your silly claims?”

Sorry, the female fox threw me off. You have my sincerest apology

OMG!!! you used Mw and Ma instead of mW and mA. OMG!!!

OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG

Tell me you know the difference???

That was just another typo, right???

Please tell me it was?

Anybody know how to get in touch with Johnny? He owes me a buck and Christmas is coming up.

Sorry I spelled Anomaly wrong on that last email

a·nom·a·ly
əˈnäməlē
noun
1.
something that deviates from what is standard, normal, or expected. “there are a number of anomalies in the present system”
synonyms: oddity, peculiarity, abnormality, irregularity, inconsistency, incongruity, aberration, quirk, rarity
“ChemE is a rather harmless anomaly”

ChemE,

Sorry, the female fox threw me off. You have my sincerest apology

Female fox? I have no idea why you would assume that.

OMG!!! you used Mw and Ma instead of mW and mA. OMG!!!

OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG

Tell me you know the difference???

That was just another typo, right???

Obviously – I made a mistake. I often hold the shift key down prematurely (in this case for the slash) and for too long when I’m in a rush, resulting in this kind of typo. I am perfectly well aware of the difference between milliamps and milliwatts and the abbreviations used for them.

Have you finished behaving like a toddler, gloating over what is obviously a simple error? Presumably you are attempting to distract from the fact that you don’t have the first idea about how to investigate an autism cluster and that your entire approach is idiotic.

Can you answer any of the questions put to you? Maybe you could start with explaining how these microwaves generate the DC you are so concerned about..If you can’t, you will confirm my suspicions about your intellectual limitations.

one starts to wonder why the military would balk at using this hypothetical radar-based weapon while still using dangerous toys with a high degree of scatter like flame-throwers and high-explosive ordinances.

No shit.

Dimbulb yaps nonsensically about a minor typo but asserts “and it is MW not RF”

Johnny, if you really owe this fool a buck, please pay up. He desperately needs to buy a clue.

Tell me you know the difference???

That was just another typo, right???

Oh, look, Mr. “I think I know where the electrons are going” is having a seizure or something.

doug –

I did indeed post –
“Now show us some pretty pictures of the spectrum on the ground from 3 or 4 locations in that area that show large spikes from multiple transmitters. I have a dollar that says you don’t have any.”

In response, ChemE came back with this –

https://sdsimonson.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/sm-autism-radar-power.png

I maintain that this does not show “the spectrum on the ground from 3 or 4 locations in that area that show large spikes from multiple transmitters”.

But, hey, I may be wrong, I often am. If you think the above link warrants it, I will put $2 in the Salvation Army kettle in ChemE’s name.

Johnny,

“In response, ChemE came back with this…”

And then I came back with this which is even more obviously non-isotropic

https://sdsimonson.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/melbourne-fl.png

http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/02/13/guam-revisited/

I could show you many more non-isotropic profiles of radiation hitting the ground.

They are all on my website. For low angle parabolic antennas and depending upon atmospheric conditions, power density can be 3-4 times higher hitting the ground underneath that ring around the cone of silence then makes it back to the dish (hypotenuse) because the distance traveled is shorter.

Salvation Army would be great. I just dropped off a christmas tree there

If you think the above link warrants it, I will put $2 in the Salvation Army kettle in ChemE’s name.

I don’t think it’s warranted, but I’d suggest a different organization than that of “General” William Booth, and not just because of Joe Hill’s “The Preacher and the Slave.”

I could show you many more non-isotropic profiles of radiation hitting the ground.

You have clearly demonstrated that you don’t understand the first thing about (1) RF propagation or (2) selection bias. You’re simply desperate for attention of any form.

one starts to wonder why the military would balk at using this hypothetical radar-based weapon while still using dangerous toys with a high degree of scatter like flame-throwers and high-explosive ordinances.

I am reminded of Tim O’Neill’s Jungian analysis of Tolkien:

Smaug is what we of Othello’s trade call an area weapon: precise location of the target is not required, nor is fastidious marksmanship necessary for good terminal effect.

Narad: He doesn’t know anything about *anything* including weather. Jeez, I knew how tornados formed before I hit puberty. Not that I’m a meteorologist, but being in the midwest, I do try to read up on weather events when I can. His explanation of weather doesn’t make any sort of sense.

HDB: so, that book any good? It sounds interesting, though I wonder if it can be found in the States.

There are these things called “libraries.” If they don’t have a particular book, they can usually order it on inter-library loan.

Wow. I got schooled both by Simonson and ChemE about radio waves. Excuse me while I yawn, totally unimpressed. And the point that autism existed well before the turn of the 20th century (and radio waves), that it was just *named* in the 1930s, went whooshing over their heads.

Next they will blame it on the telegraph….

Shay: The library catalog will just tell me if it’s there. It won’t give me a review or an opinion. Also given that it’s old and a British publication, it might not be in any library in the states.

OOPS, “Just Dawned on MI” failed History

I’d be very careful if I were you in yet another area you demonstrate complete ignorance of. Hint: The term Autism was first used by Eugen Bleuler in the early 20th century. However there are many clear examples of autism (altho’ not called that) dating back centuries.

Thanks Mom.

Come to think of it electromagnetic radiation has been around forever too. I am really starting to feel at home around here.

HDB: so, that book any good? It sounds interesting

“The Individuated Hobbit” is entertaining. The author has a droll turn of phrase, and avoids facile or vulgar caricatures of Jungian thinking. My copy was printed in the UK in 1980, but Amazon or the Book Repository might be able to source it for you.

The library catalog will just tell me if it’s there. It won’t give me a review or an opinion. Also given that it’s old and a British publication, it might not be in any library in the states.

I don’t even know what the book is, but WorldCat is more than happy to suggest where the nearest holding might lie.

^ The Individuated Hobbit appears to be quite widely held by both university and public libraries.

HDB: Ok, I’ll see if I can find it. 1980? Looked older, but paperbacks sometimes don’t age well. I think my local source of drugs in paperback form might have it if the library systems don’t.

Narad: Never heard of it, but I’m sure it will be an adventure.

Oh, look E conceded that radiation isn’t all man-made. Next E’ll start hissing at the daystar (sorry, hobbit joke). Engineer should really go back to it’s cave and fondle it’s instruments, instead of continuing to vomit these things it calls ‘knowledge.’ Seriously, dude, weather ain’t all that mysterious.

Narad: Never heard of it, but I’m sure it will be an adventure.

Are we talking about the same book? It’s on the shelves at the St. Paul Public Library.

One small caution with WorldCat: In the Canadian province where I live, there is a sort of “localized” version of WorldCat that can be conveniently used to search all provincial member libraries. It often get hits at my university library, but if I click on the link provided, the library says it can’t find it. However, if I take the full 13 digit ISBN and do a search directly in the Uni’s library catalog, it comes up. The WorldCat passes only the 10-digit ISBN via the link, yet it shows the 13 digit number in the “can’t find it” message – very odd. The links work fine for some other libraries.

Try this link to Google Books. It may not work for you, since it is the Canadian version, but it gives me a “Find in a libray” link (left side) that conjures up WorldCat. For some reason, if I use books.google.com instead of .ca I don’t get the “find” link, but that may be specifically because I’m in Canada. You may find the converse.

Check with your local public library about inter-library loans. Also, if you are an alumnus of a university or other post-secondary institution, check with their library about privileges. Along with being able to borrow books and other circulating items, I can get free access to a vast range of on-line journals, though with the annoying need to actually use a computer at the library (quite typical, because of the way the licenses are crafted by the publishers).

^ The “FTFY” image invokes a “r—rd” panel. My apologies; I was just looking for the original and didn’t vet it.

Sorry, the Google Books link is for an edition that only comes up in a couple of libraries (Denmark & France). Always try the “View all editions and formats” option on the “Edition/Format” line.

I don’t think he’s even a script kiddie. He’s got two things –

1. Locations plotted in Google Earth.
2. Nothing else

Narad: I was talking about Worldcat, and thank you for pinpointing a semi-nearby source.

Johnny: Laptop counts as an instrument.

Come to think of it electromagnetic radiation has been around forever too. I am really starting to feel at home around here.

When you are as wrong as often as you are, flaccid attempts at smugness and re-direction aren’t a good strategy skippy.

OK, I’m confused now…

Why doesn’t all that nasty EMR kill off the fungi (which may also be bacteria), which are now causing all the autism since we got shot of thiomersal…err, thimerosal…errr, that mercury stuff, which may or may not now, or ever, be in the correct form to be bioavailable or not and cause brain damage which is what autism actually is…Except it isn’t…

And it is nice to know that I can now ignore all potential confounders when looking at any set of supposed data. Gosh, doesn’t that just make it soooooo much easier to draw whatever conclusion I fancy? Nice to know that the statistics I was taught all those years ago has now been superseded by this new way of thinking.

Johnny,

“He really doesn’t have a model”

Dumber,

“I would say all he really has is a python script”

Would you guys like to put your money where your mouth is and bet $20 each?

Johnny, can I see receipt for your donation?

Murmur @ 680 Why doesn’t all that nasty EMR kill off the fungi (which may also be bacteria), which are now causing all the autism since we got shot of thiomersal…err, thimerosal…errr, that mercury stuff, which may or may not now, or ever, be in the correct form to be bioavailable or not and cause brain damage which is what autism actually is…Except it isn’t…

It will all become clear if you overlay the aurora borealis events and meteorite landings on a map of city water systems. Don’t forget to get the tide times from the nearest large body of water and correct for daylight savings time if using summer data.

OK, so we’ve had some pretty good aurora borealis round here in the last couple of months, so got that…Nearest city has no recorded meteorite landings for some time, but I can find maps of its water systems, so got that…I live a mile from the coast, so got tide times, adjusted to GMT…Does this mean I am autistic?

Damn, that was easier than all those long drawn out assessments I used to do. If only someone had told us that it was this easy!

Johnny
December 10, 2015
“I don’t think he’s even a script kiddie. He’s got two things –
1. Locations plotted in Google Earth.
2. Nothing else”

$100 Bet? Donate to winner’s charity of choice? Need receipt confirmation
Include Dumber?

$1,000?

$10,000?

Laptop counts as an instrument.

I’ll accept that, and you know what they say about computers – Garbage in, garbage out.

Also –

“A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other invention with the possible exceptions of handguns and Tequila.”
― Mitch Ratcliffe

GIGO Boy – if you’ve got something, post it,

Otherwise, I’m not talking to you, I’m talking about you.

Nice to know that the statistics I was taught all those years ago has now been superseded by this new way of thinking.

Well, Brian Hooker taught us to use simple statistics, and using that lesson, I was able to determine that the average person has 1 breast and 1 testicle.

Nice to know that the statistics I was taught all those years ago has now been superseded by this new way of thinking.

As least you learned statistics. It seems chemE never did.

Helianthus:

I have to admit, then you put it like this, one starts to wonder why the military would balk at using this hypothetical radar-based weapon while still using dangerous toys with a high degree of scatter like flame-throwers and high-explosive ordinances.
It’s not as if there are no applications for area-suppressing weapons. Also, radars seldom explode. The same cannot be said about napalm tanks or ammo depots.

Well, mostly because it would do a bad job of hitting the target. Hitting everything except the target is only acceptable if you are a Stormtrooper. 😉 That said, they really are developing energy weapons. The real reason they wouldn’t use a weapon that unacceptably irradiates everything around it is because it’s wasting energy. You need to focus that energy on the target if you hope to destroy it.

I was involved in a project to develop an area denial weapon once, though it used high explosives. Radio was used only for communications purposes. It was intended more as a replacement for landmines — it used explosives, but they could be remotely deactivated, and had a very sophisticated fusing system that allowed them to tell if it was a good guy or a bad guy before blowing up. They were also mobile. It was working quite well, but the budget monster ate it.

ChemE:

My spin on the Texas Sharpshooter Effect. If electrical engineers beam enough high power density radiation into the atmosphere that ricochets off everything they are bound to hit something. Mine is more an effect of not being able to shoot straight.

Y’know, you should probably at least google a phrase before giving your “spin” on it. Hint: it has nothing to do with aiming weapons.

Also . . . so, the radio transmitters around in the 30s were strong enough to cause autism, but cell phone towers aren’t? (You got a bit annoyed when I thought you were attributing autism to cell phone towers, and explained in some detail why they are not strong enough. Hmmmm.)

Krebiozen:

Have you finished behaving like a toddler, gloating over what is obviously a simple error?

Of course he hasn’t. It’s the only thing he has that he can accurately gloat over, so he clings to it like a drowning man.

Narad: @ 674: I am reminded of the old IT threat: “Now go away, or I shall replace you with a very small shell script.”

@Calli Arcale: my boyfriend has a t-shirt with that threat on it. He wears it to a Geek convention annually. He says it’s the only place he goes that everyone who reads the t-shirt laughs. (He also has a t-shirt with the Serenity in a canning jar with holes in the lid. Takes people a bit longer to get that one, but eventually most do.)

Johnny Come Lately:

“GIGO Boy – if you’ve got something, post it,”
Otherwise, I’m not talking to you, I’m talking about you.”

https://sdsimonson.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/programs.png

I use about 20 python programs and subroutines

Python is a widely used general-purpose, high-level programming language.[20][21] Its design philosophy emphasizes code readability, and its syntax allows programmers to express concepts in fewer lines of code than would be possible in languages such as C++ or Java.[22][23] The language provides constructs intended to enable clear programs on both a small and large scale.[24]
Python supports multiple programming paradigms, including object-oriented, imperative and functional programming or procedural styles. It features a dynamic type system and automatic memory management and has a large and comprehensive standard library.[25]

Statistics
The P-value approach involves determining “likely” or “unlikely” by determining the probability — assuming the null hypothesis were true — of observing a more extreme test statistic in the direction of the alternative hypothesis than the one observed.

Message to Johnny Come Lately:
Now show me the receipt for your Donation to the Salvation Army or I will consider you a Liar and only talk about you

Did you memorize the definition of a p value or simply read it from a book? You still haven’t demonstrated you know diddly squat about doing statistics (which is no surprise since, from the other comments, you don’t know squat about electronics or science.

Hitting everything except the target is only acceptable if you are a Stormtrooper.

I am trying SO hard right now not to make snarky comments about the USAF.

Statistics
The P-value approach involves determining “likely” or “unlikely” by determining the probability — assuming the null hypothesis were true — of observing a more extreme test statistic in the direction of the alternative hypothesis than the one observed.

Yah.

Now, perhaps you could explain what p-values don’t mean.

Threaten another poster or use a sockpuppet.

You’re forgetting about Gerg, who was only banned after repeatedly* suggesting that Orac was a “wuss” or something for not banning him.

* At least four times, as I recall.

Oh, yeah, the Gergles. Almost forgot him. That knucklehead would taunt a sniper.

What does ChemE have to do to get banned?

How I curse the rules of Respectful Insolence that oblige us to argue with ChemE for being wrong on the internet.

I’ve already proven that one cannot get banned from RI by telling really terrible jokes.

Nothing obliges you do to anything. You can, after all, simply ignore him, which is what I’ve been doing.

That was a sardonic HDB response to the request to ban ChemE.

Narad: no, Greg got banned when he started to threaten Lillady. Though Orac generally doesn’t do anything about rape threats.

ChemE: just to be curious, what do you think makes weather? How do you explain cold fronts and warm fronts?

Palindrom: Hey, I like terrible jokes. Bring ’em on.

Politicalguineapig

ChemE: just to be curious, what do you think makes weather?

In my model our primary weather patterns are caused by vacuum upsets, not hot air and cold air (that is secondary). Vacuum condenses gasses by lowering the local pressure, cooling them and triggering precipitation and electrical discharge as the vacuum decays/evaporates. The vacuum is nucleating from another dimension of space (multiverse)

“How do you explain cold fronts and warm fronts?”
Vacuum pulls in cold air from the North and warm air from the South since gasses flow from high pressure to low pressure. We have vacuum energy in our jet streams.

Waterspouts, tornadoes and hurricanes are all vacuum disturbances in my model. They temporarily curl up spacetime into a local wormhole and condense water vapor along their eyewall (domain wall) and give off electromagnetic discharge as they decay. By lowering the pressure in the atmosphere they(wormholes) also increase vacuum evaporation over the ocean.

Basically, wormholes are quantumly entangled black holes that have curled up space – they eventually evaporate.

It can explain how the Moore, OK tornado could discharge the equivalent energy of up to 600 Hiroshima bombs. Air and water vapor alone can’t give nuclear yields.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Moore_tornado

Chow

Cheme: Wow, talk about unneccesarily complicating things. You’re the Deepak Chopra of weather. And no, there wasn’t any radiation in Moore. Ever heard of wind speed? In fact, I’m beginning to wonder if you’ve ever been outside.

They temporarily curl up spacetime into a local wormhole and condense water vapor along their eyewall (domain wall) and give off electromagnetic discharge as they decay.

What a load of crap. No wonder nobody takes you seriously.

The rapidly changing currents also create electromagnetic pulses (EMPs) that radiate outward from the ionic channel.

Rather than trying to distract with yet more random babbling, could you return to that whole “p-value” routine? Is there a reason you’re not open-sourcing your, ah, Python scripts?

Cheme: It can explain how the Moore, OK tornado could discharge the equivalent energy of up to 600 Hiroshima bombs. Air and water vapor alone can’t give nuclear yields.

You did not say ‘electromagnetic discharge.’ You said ‘radiation’ which equals nuclear, and there wasn’t any. There were electromagnetic discharges, I’m sure, but that would be due to this thing called lightning, and you know, downed power lines. And there is a lot of difference between lightning and an emp pulse. Emp pulses are usually artificial and cover a *wide area.* Lightning is basically a small focused beam of static electricity that strikes a small area. Sometimes, this overloads electric devices, making them short out.
I don’t know why you’re obsessed with making everything complicated. Especially when you don’t have a damn clue about anything.

As for what planet I live on, it’s earth, which is apparently not where you live. I mean, seriously, bub, weather is not that complicated. It’s a matter of air currents, heating and cooling. What is your damage?

Politicalguineapig
“Cheme: It can explain how the Moore, OK tornado could discharge the equivalent energy of up to 600 Hiroshima bombs. Air and water vapor alone can’t give nuclear yields. You did not say ‘electromagnetic discharge.’ You said ‘radiation’

No, I said “equivalent energy” and “nuclear yields”[of energy]

And yes, lightning gives of EMP pulses of electromagnetic radiation. Read the Wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning
“Transient currents during the flash[edit]
The electric current within a typical negative CG lightning discharge rises very quickly to its peak value in 1–10 microseconds, then decays more slowly over 50–200 microseconds. The transient nature of the current within a lightning flash results in several phenomena that need to be addressed in the effective protection of ground-based structures. Rapidly changing currents tend to travel on the surface of a conductor. This is called skin effect, unlike direct currents “flowing through” the entire conductor like water through a hose. Hence, conductors used in the protection of facilities tend to be multi-stranded small wires woven together, that increases the surface area inversely in proportion to cross-sectional area.
The rapidly changing currents also create electromagnetic pulses (EMPs) that radiate outward from the ionic channel. This is a characteristic of all electrical sparks. The radiated pulses rapidly weaken as their distance from the origin increases. However, if they pass over conductive elements, for instance electrical wires, communication lines or metallic pipes, they may induce a current which travels outward to its termination. This is the “surge” that, more often than not, results in the destruction of delicate electronics, electrical appliances or electric motors. Devices known as surge protectors (SPD) or transient voltage surge suppressors (TVSS) attached in series with these conductors can detect the lightning flash’s transient [irregular] current, and through an alteration of its physical properties, route the spike to an attached earthing ground, thereby protecting the equipment from damage.”

Narad

“Rather than trying to distract with yet more random babbling, could you return to that whole “p-value” routine? Is there a reason you’re not open-sourcing your, ah, Python scripts?”

Narad, I was answering a question. if you are really interested in statistics in Python, I suggest the following:

http://scipy.org/

they have statistics modules built in.
http://docs.scipy.org/doc/scipy/reference/tutorial/stats.html

I have made a database of 10,000 radars/earth stations available on the Google Earth Community in kmz format. I spent approx. 1 year compiling it. Many/post of the power levels, gains, etc are included.

With some knowledge of kmz/xml, Python programming, antenna calculations I encourage you to make your own stuff and you can check my work.

ChemE, you seem to be multiplying entitles without reason and without evidence for their existence, let alone influence. What’s your evidence for accessible alternate universes? What’s your evidence for these alleged vacuum disturbance? Ditto for “temporary wormholes”?

Most crucially, what if anything does your model predict that isn’t predicted by conventional meteorology? That is, how can we test your model? What makes it different from someone asserting that the weather is controlled by invisible pink unicorns, which produce the currents, pressure differentials, solar flux, and so on that we know drive the weather, which he knows this because an orbiting teapot told him this in a dream?

Vicki

“ChemE, you seem to be multiplying entitles without reason and without evidence for their existence, let alone influence. What’s your evidence for accessible alternate universes? What’s your evidence for these alleged vacuum disturbance? Ditto for “temporary wormholes”?”

Answer “Weather Phenomena”

http://darkmattersalot.com/2013/04/15/is-it-our-brane-thats-still-foggy-or-is-it-just-string-theory-for-dummies-me/

It is based upon M-Theory and a braneworld scenario
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brane_cosmology

One prediction from my theory is that we will find “Cold Dark Matter” along eyewalls and in our jetstreams.
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=4774

they have statistics modules built in

That’s nice. So, your “p-values” just plop out of something that you can’t describe or justify? In your own words, how does one reckon the false-discovery rate? (I mean, it approaches unity in your case by virtue of putting the cart before the horse, but whatever.)

Let everybody look behind the curtain to see the engineering of the Magic Python’s ventral scales, Stewart.

Narad,

I describe the p-value procedure I used on my site. Anybody with a statistics background can verify/falsify my claims as I have made the microwave transmitter database freely available and the fish kills are all in the State Wildlife database I referenced.

http://darkmattersalot.com/2014/01/12/florida-2/

Over the holidays I am going to put together a more formal paper, I ran that analysis a couple of years ago.

I appreciate your interest!

PGP @708 —

You did not say ‘electromagnetic discharge.’ You said ‘radiation’ which equals nuclear, and there wasn’t any.

Pardon me if you already knew this, but in physics, the word “radiation” is used to refer to all electromagnetic waves, including radio, infrared, and visible light, which usually have nothing to do with nuclear processes, as well as particles shot out by decaying nuclei.

Ionizing radiation, either short-wavelength, high-energy electromagnetic waves or high-speed particles like alpha rays, now those are what you’re probably thinking of.

You may well have been correct in context — I couldn’t be bothered to trace the original occurrence of the term in this tedious thread.

Incidentally, the whole brouhaha about cell phones supposedly causing brain tumors gets its legs largely from ignorance of this very point. When most people are told that their cell phone emits “radiation”, they assume the worst.

It’s kind of funny as well that people speak of “nuking” something in the microwave oven. Of course a microwave has nothing to do with nuclear processes as well, unless it’s fed by a nuclear power plant somewhere else.

PGP et al. — Once one starts using wormholes to explain tornados, one has crossed a certain threshold, kind of like Homer Simpson crossing over into the third dimension
“I wish I’d read that book by that wheelchair guy!”

To say it another way, there is a 99.99% probability the NULL Hypothesis is NOT valid

Nope. Your comment is essentially saying their is a 99.99% chance the alternative is true: that is not what a p-value does. It simply measures the chance that the observed response can be attributed to chance alone. You’ve made the typical freshman error of understanding.

More importantly, your convoluted writing doesn’t indicate what, exactly, you are testing, and what the magnitude of this supposed result actually is.

If you don’t know what you’re doing you shouldn’t be doing it.

Palindrome: I knew that, but I wasn’t sure if ChemE did. They seem to think all radiation is equally dangerous. (I thought that too, for a while in my childhood, but I grew out of it.) And given how little they know of science, I suspect their degree was mailorder.

dean

“To say it another way, there is a 99.99% probability the NULL Hypothesis is NOT valid
Nope. Your comment is essentially saying their is a 99.99% chance the alternative is true: that is not what a p-value does. It simply measures the chance that the observed response can be attributed to chance alone. ”

Dean, thanks for for taking the time and clarifying that, I corrected the comment from a couple of years ago. You are awesome! P-Values remain as they are. I would not expect a statistician to understand electrical discharge, radiation modeling, power density and EIRP values as well as Rayleigh scattering, refraction super refraction, ducting, induction and conduction.

Rock on dude!

I don’t expect a chemical engineer to understand statistics – you are just another data point to support that expectation.

Dean

“I don’t expect a chemical engineer to understand statistics – you are just another data point to support that expectation.”

That is why I had a guy with these credentials help with computing the P-Values two years ago after I could visually see a strong spatial connection.

Doctor of Philosophy (PhD), Computer Science. Plus Certificate in Bioinformatics and Computational Biology
2008 – 2013

He made a comment and posted on my blog when he saw my maps. Narad can probably go back and find it.

My conclusion:
Chronic voltage (electrical potential) in our atmosphere triggers low level electrical currents in the Earth & conductive seawater.

I appreciate your feedback.

ChemE: I guess you are disagreeing with all of these guys?

Why, yes, dimbulb I am. I suspect most of these guys are from mailorder outfits or ‘universities’ like Liberty University and it’s clones. The rest are like “Dr” Ben Carson or the “Dr.” Geiers- suffering from dementia.

Doctorate in statistics here which is not what your pal has. I stand by my assessment if your lack of ability.

Dean

“I am smarter than everybody at statistics so everyone else is dumb ”

A guy is flying in a hot air balloon and he’s lost. So he lowers himself over a field and shouts to Dean on the ground:

“Can you tell me where I am, and which way I’m headed?” “Sure! You’re at 43 degrees, 12 minutes, 21.2 seconds north; 123 degrees, 8 minutes, 12.8 seconds west. You’re at 212 meters above sea level. Right now, you’re hovering, but on your way in here you were at a speed of 1.83 meters per second at 1.929 radians”

“Thanks! By the way, are you a statistician?” “I am! But how did you know?”

“Everything you’ve told me is completely accurate; you gave me more detail than I needed, and you told me in such a way that it’s no use to me at all!”

“Dang! By the way, are you a principal investigator?”

“Geeze! How’d you know that????”
“You don’t know where you are, you don’t know where you’re going. You got where you are by blowing hot air, you start asking questions after you get into trouble, and you’re in exactly the same spot you were a few minutes ago, but now, somehow, it’s my fault!

You’re at 43 degrees, 12 minutes, 21.2 seconds north; 123 degrees, 8 minutes, 12.8 seconds west. You’re at 212 meters above sea level.

As near as I can tell, that location is near a mountain road, at a location that is 530 meters above sea level.

Even his jokes are wrong.

chemE, don’t expect to try to wiggle out of a foolish bit of wrong-headed “statistical analysis” by evading the point. You don’t have anything valid in your little bit of work – or if there is you haven’t explained it.

Sorry – whatever blessing your friend gave you was misplaced – you don’t have anything in your post that supports your assertions.

I ran across this while looking up units used in the formula for polyjuice potion (it being the time of year I watch the Harry Potter movies again), and thought “Where have I seen completely silly numbers of (in)significant digits recently?” and thought of chemmy.
from WikiPee: “In the avoirdupois system, the dram is the mass … exactly 1.7718451953125 grams”
I suppose it is an incontrovertible affirmation of nerdiness to chuckle at that.
Damn! was going to convert that number to dBmg, and my calculator died!

I suppose it is an incontrovertible affirmation of nerdiness to chuckle at that.

Just wait until the Anti–Leap Second fiends have their way.

#728
dean
” don’t expect to try to wiggle out of a foolish bit of wrong-headed “statistical analysis” by evading the point. You don’t have anything valid in your little bit of work – or if there is you haven’t explained it.”

If Dean really wants to prove his value he should get off his butt and disprove the analysis/conclusion using his own statistical analysis.

Otherwise he is just expelling hot air to inflate his ivory tower ego.

Has anyone heard from Johnny? He was supposed to put $2 in the Salvation Army Kettle because he lost his bet with me. I hope he is OK

“If Dean really wants to prove his value he should get off his butt and disprove the analysis/conclusion using his own statistical analysis.”

Someone was out sick the day they covered ‘burden of proof.’

“Burden of Proof”

Plenty of evidence, tens of thousands of dead fish and marine life (victims) in an ongoing unusual mortality event clustered around 23 million watts of pulsed microwave radiation (murder weapon) known to induce electrical currents in nearby seawater and in aircraft electronics 1/2 mile or more away

Narad @731 — I actually think the leap second is worth saving, which may put me in a tiny minority. Speaking of nerdliness, I once tuned in to WWV when a leap second was about to occur, just for the pleasure of counting out a 61 second minute: “At the tone, zero hours, zero minutes, Coordinated Universal Time … [58] [59] [60] [0 beeeeep] [1] [2] … ”

One thing about WWV, is it’s got a beat. Plus internationally allocated standard carrier frequencies of 2.5, 5, 10, 15, and 20 Megahertz.

Just wait until the Anti–Leap Second fiends have their way.

My stars! Is that really a thing!?!

(Attempting to do proper blockquotes. Apologies in advance for possible fail)

“Plenty of evidence, tens of thousands of dead fish and marine life (victims) in an ongoing unusual mortality event clustered around 23 million watts of pulsed microwave radiation (murder weapon) known to induce electrical currents in nearby seawater and in aircraft electronics 1/2 mile or more away”

You have TOTALLY missed the forest for the trees!

All it takes is a couple of quick maps and the answer literally jumps out at you:
Overlay the map of the US transportation system (download here:http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/planning/national_highway_system/) with a map of the average miles driven per automobile per year. The take the the negative image of the map of goat population of the US (available here: http://www.agcensus.usda.gov/Publications/2012/Online_Resources/Ag_Atlas_Maps/Livestock_and_Animals/Livestock,_Poultry_and_Other_Animals/12-M154-RGBDot1-largetext.pdf) and it is a far better fit than your data set gives. It appears that researchers have missed this CLEAR conclusion by failing to use the inverse data from the goat population map.

I hypothesize that the root cause of the autism epidemic is that the magnetic field of the automobile ignition system interacts with the platinum ions generated by the catalytic converters, creating small energy attractors which concentrate the solar wind in the brains of preschool children and marine life.

The method by which goats can offset the impact of this ionic impact has not been determined. More research is needed.

The leap second is absolutely worth saving, since the alternatives are worse — variable duration seconds (ewwww), UTC getting leap seconds but no other time clock so the conversions get progressively worse (pain in the butt), or allowing the nominal day to gradually slide away from the actual day (which sort of defeats the point of a clock based on the day-night cycle).

ChemE:

If Dean really wants to prove his value he should get off his butt and disprove the analysis/conclusion using his own statistical analysis.

Before he can disprove it, you have to give him enough to disprove. What I mean is, you haven’t furnished a proof yet. You’ve furnished various things that looked very concerning to you, but you have not provided an analysis. Lots of numbers and fancy words, but none of the real work needed to actually make your case.

Until you make your case, completely and in detail, there isn’t really anything to disprove. The burden at this point remains on you.

Otherwise he is just expelling hot air to inflate his ivory tower ego.

Funnily enough, credentials matter to you when it’s someone you claim is supporting your viewpoint, but are just “ivory tower ego” when they are not. I wonder why that might be.

There are lots of anti-leap-second people; the basic argument boils down to it being more trouble in the short-to-medium-term to have leap seconds than not. I gather that one of the things going on here is that while most GPS systems ignore leap seconds, Russia uses a GPS system that does account for them. (The organization that deals with these things recently decided to postpone the decision to their next meeting, a few years from now.)

“(The organization that deals with these things recently decided to postpone the decision to their next meeting, a few years from now.)”

Give or take a second.

chemE, as others have pointed out, there is nothing in your science or your model to rebut – wormholes and weather, dark matter thrown in, really – only a complete kook believes that crap.
The only reason I risked looking at your site was to see if you were as equally clueless about statistics as your ranting here makes you seem. You are.
I don’t need to rebut a worthless “model” when there is nothing to rebut.

Dean,

Thanks. Do you actually do anything meaningful besides maybe teaching with your statistics degree? Like actually trying to solve problems? I would expect the radiation modeling to be way over your head.

Dark matter/energy make up 95% of the universe, that is pretty much the agreement amongst scientists.

Branes bring rain in my model. Mark my words.

Dark matter does exist, brakes and m-theory are possibly more than mathematical constructs, but neither is intertwined with our weather as some kooks claim.

Dark matter is a placeholder term. Using it as if it were a discrete entity is a very useful indicator of someone who doesn’t know what they’re talking about. It just means “matter whose presence we can infer from gravitational influence, but which we haven’t figured out how to detect.” There is no reason to assume it’s all one thing, nor any reason to assume it would have any exotic powers. In fact, since we can’t detect it yet, there’s more reason to suspect it doesn’t have exotic powers, given that it’s otherwise invisible. Like neutrinos. Heck, a lot of it could *be* neutrinos. Their main feature is that they are almost totally incapable of interacting with anything else.

I don’t know about Dean, but I know a couple of guys with advanced degrees in statistics. One works as an engineer. (Used to be my manager, before our last reorg moved me out of his department. They never seem to know where to put configuration management.) The other works as a statistician for a medical device manufacturer, helping develop clinical trials and working with the resulting data.

Statistics degrees are extremely useful.

Statistics degrees are extremely useful.

Yes, they are. And, as I’m sure the people you know do, I work hard to help people (other faculty and students, in my case) with analyses. I don’t agree with anything you say Calli.

But one of the downsides of the increased availability of computers and software is that people who have no business doing an analysis – like chemE – wrap the most foolish of ideas in language that sounds valid and then claims that it is valid. Crap like that taints the importance of statistics for a lot of people. Aside from the blatant foolishness of chemE’s ideas, it is the assertion of “validated by statistics” that is most annoying to me.

Calli — You write accurately about both leap seconds and dark matter, which is nice to see! Quite a lot of erudition on tap among the commentariat here.

And of course, the sound you hear coming from certain quarters explaining the weather with wormholes and dark matter is the steady creak-creak-creak of a handle being turned. What to they call those handles? Can’t quite think of it …

Krebiozen

“There is a correlation between autism and rainfall, clearly rainfall causes autism, no need to look for ”

Refracted/reflected microwave radiation is highest during rainfall. That is how a pulsed Doppler radar works.

Scattered, smothered and covered…:)

Maybe there is more indoor mold where there is more rainfall, plus children spend more time indoors and get exposed to mycotoxins. Is there any reason that’s a less plausible explanation than yours?

Global warming and ocean acidification also correlate with the increase in autism diagnoses. What are the odds that we can get all the crunchy-woo parents of autistic children to start working against global warming?

the basic argument boils down to it being more trouble in the short-to-medium-term POSIX

FTFY, I suspect.

The UCO/Lick year 2100 DUTC predictions are here.

One prediction from my theory is that we will find “Cold Dark Matter” along eyewalls and in our jetstreams.

I see that ChemE doesn’t know what this word means in the context of physics, either. There’s a quote from Sabine Hossenfelder above, but I’m not sure how to get this thing to search.

Narad — very interesting link to the Lick site, thanks. I suppose we could all move to leap minutes to concentrate the pain every century or so …

I suppose we could all move to leap minutes to concentrate the pain every century or so …

They have a number of pages there, but I can’t quite find the one that gives the error in R.A. This one has an older table that suggests failure of most pointing systems with delta-T of 2 s.

Anyway, it’s SSRIs taken by mothers during the later stages of pregnancy that cause autism now.

Well, according to some folk in Quebec, who couldn’t quite manage to allow for some very obvious confounders…

Narad — I’m undoubtedly the only person here who sometimes works with (or on) telescope pointing software — one of the very few applications for which this matters. Allen’s assessment seems fine, but was written quite a few years back, and I expect the problem would be viewed as a little easier at this point.

Oddly, I also work on timing problems for which the edge of precision requires correction for leap seconds — getting the interval between two events a couple years apart to better than a few seconds requires the correction. My required accuracy has been just poor enough to ignore this, but I should really get my act together and implement procedures to make the correction.

I can here eyes rolling among the rest of the commentariat, but hey, it’s comment #759, and at least I’m not yelling about evolution being wrong or whatever,, thereby FORCING people to stay up late typing rebuttals as per the classic xkcd.

palindrom:

Calli — You write accurately about both leap seconds and dark matter, which is nice to see! Quite a lot of erudition on tap among the commentariat here.

Thank you for the kind words! Yes, we are blessed with a very erudite commentariat! 😉 I love reading your posts as well.

I’m a software engineer, so leap seconds are something I really need to appreciate in my job. They’re one of the edge cases that’ll break your software if you’re not careful! Writing calendar functions can be . . . interesting. So hardly anyone does, when there are perfectly good time classes you can use. But you need to understand the basic reckoning of time within those classes, and understand the limitations of them, or you can run into trouble.

You and Narad discussed telescope pointing software. Another application where it’s really important is navigation. We have to account for leap seconds in our computers that talk to various stores on aircraft to tell the stores where they are and where they’re supposed to go once dropped. Some of the stores have explody bits, so accuracy is a pretty big deal.

ChemE:

would think that higher income urbanites would mostly have A/C now and indoor mold exposure would be much less overall than in the early 1900’s when autism was 1/10,000 or less.

Given how well mold can thrive on an A/C unit’s condenser coils, that may not be a very reasonable assumption. Also, A/C strongly encourages people to stay inside in the summer and get less fresh air, so if there is any mold in the house, they’ll breathe in more of the spores today than they would with the same amount of mold a century ago. A/C and central heating are often accused, and with some merit, of increasing rates of respiratory illness.

At least in the tropics moisture condensation is a typical problem with A/C units, and especially in hot and humid environment can quickly facilitate a thriving ecosystem of some sort of slimy mucus…

gaist

“At least in the tropics moisture condensation is a typical problem with A/C units, and especially in hot and humid environment”

I agree, moisture also condenses every night in the tropics, on every square inch of surface area, not just low surface area A/C piping. With no HVAC, the entire building will get moldy – floors, walls, ceiling. Lots more surface area than just HVAC piping.

But you have to agree that an A/C unit force-drying the air it cools down is a nifty micro-particle dispersal unit.

And besides, only water damaged areas in my Shenzhen flat were the balcony, and the inside wall below the A/C unit.

In Hong Kong, A/C unit and the cupboard under the kitchen sink had a tie for most black fur between the tiles.

So, even with tropical humidity not every surface had condensation, not by far.

And speaking of tropics in SE Asia, is there a particular reasons branes accumulate there during the monsoon reasons? Or are monsoons not caused by branes like regular rain in your “model”?

Gaist:

“….SE Asia and Branes…

Tropics/equator have a high density of dark matter Branes

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22129503-100-gps-satellites-suggest-earth-is-heavy-with-dark-matter/

When the Earth leans toward the sun their entangled orbits take them North toward SE Asia & SE US. In the Winter when Earth tilts away from the sun they orbit to the South and Australia (cyclones) since they are gravitational energy.

Best I can figure…:)

Harris has yet to account for perturbations to the satellites’ orbits due to relativity, and the gravitational pull of the sun and moon. What’s more, preliminary data from NASA’s Juno probe, also presented at the AGU meeting, suggests its speed was as expected as it flew by Earth, casting doubt on the earlier anomalies.

So hardly concrete proof, seems like he/they missed a few obvious counfounders.

So, in your “model”, do sea and land temperatures attract branes, or is it the other way around? Because the arrival of the monsoon rains depends more on the difference between the temperatures than on the date or tilt of the Earth…

Tropics/equator have a high density of dark matter Branes

You’re a nitwit. What part of “70,000 km” do you not understand?

Come back when you’ve sorted out category theory.

[…] On vaccines and autism, child pornography, and seeing “bullies” everywhere – I find that this is the case for Vaccine Bullying. That’s right. It’s not just doctors. It’s not just pro-vaccine friends and nasty skeptics like myself. It’s the entire damned United States of America bullying her! One can’t help but wonder … […]

Worse than child porn?
Holy shit. What kind of self centred monster would think that.

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