Quoth Vox Day: Antivaxers are more educated. Quoth the study Vox cites: Not exactly…

anti-vaxxers are whiter, wealthier, and better-educated

It goes without saying that for Beale >fils the three are synonymous.

also important may be beliefs among upper-income, White parents that protective parenting techniques are effective substitutes for immunizations.

Wow, what a nice way of saying “privileged @$$holes who think only poor, dirty brown people get sick.” I wish I had that kind of tact. I mean, I probably wouldn’t use it that often, but it’s always nice to have options. I’m surprised the authors didn’t mention one of the most obvious reasons that providing scientific data has little to no effect on antivaxxers: their belief that pharmaceutical companies are somehow colluding with every public health agency, research institution, and scientific organization on the planet to fabricate evidence that vaccines are safe and effective and cover up evidence that they actually cause more harm than they prevent.

Unfortunately, there’s some truth to the image of MENSA as a mutual admiration society for underachievers who focus on their high IQ scores to compensate for a lack of actual accomplishments. I joined during a low period of my life, when I was working a menial job and wondering what I was going to do with my life after graduating with a useless BA in philosophy and my pre-med requirements incomplete. I was hoping to find some of the intellectual stimulation I missed from college, but it turned out to be boring and trivial. To be fair, I never joined any special interest groups, which are supposed to be where the real fun is. In fact, IIRC, there were several SIGs for things like ESP, alternative medicine, etc. – so clearly a high IQ is no insurance against the human capacity for self-deception (as if we needed any more evidence.)

The very simple fact of the matter is that vaccines are far, far less important in halting the spread of infectious disease than controlling entry and immigration from non-first world countries.

Not just howlingly stupid but blatantly racist to boot.

Vox Day/Ted Beale…oh what a charmer. He’s not only smarter than everyone else, he’s better looking, richer, sexier…you name the positive adjective, he’s applied it to himself. IIRC he’s also a misogynistic Catholic creationist (but I haven’t looked at any of his blatherings in years. PZ Myers used to have go-rounds with him). Women are secondary intelligences, and only good for being barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen.

TBH, I generally find that if Vox is FOR something, it’s the far more intelligent choice to be AGAINST that thing. He works as a good barometer that way. 🙂

MI Dawn@7

Vox Day/Ted Beale…oh what a charmer. He’s not only smarter than everyone else, he’s better looking, richer, sexier…you name the positive adjective, he’s applied it to himself.

Don’t forget whiter. Heck, that’s the first this he lists in the quote.

Yes, those children of the high educated people who don’t believe in vaccination, but in good food and stuff like that, never get vaccine preventable diseases.
Why am I reminded on this piece by our valuated host?
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2015/11/04/horrifying-suffering-caused-by-treating-pertussis-naturally/
Mother Nature knows best?
Don’t think so.

@Dangerous Bacon #12: For the antivaxer, they will latch onto the Bob Sears/Jay Gordon/ quack doctors as proof that I must be mis-educated about vaccines, since Sears/Gordon are similarly educated to me. To them the outliers are the truth.

From the Slate article on the Hugo Awards:

“A quick sidebar on Vox Day, one of a handful of this saga’s bold-faced names. In addition to writing sci-fi, he’s a video game designer and early proponent of Gamergate, which, he argues, resembles Sad Puppies in that “both groups are striking back against the left-wing control freaks who have subjected science fiction to ideological control for two decades and are now attempting to do the same thing in the game industry.” He is the second human being to be expelled from the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America (SFWA), after he used the organization’s official Twitter feed to slam the award-winning black novelist N.K. Jemisin as a “half-savage.” He questions the need for women’s suffrage. And he believes that our national ills can be partially attributed to “the infestation of even the smallest American heartland towns by African, Asian, and Aztec cultures.” Yes, Aztecs. ANYWAY.”

‘Nuff said.

Vox Day. When I first encountered that name, it was not in connection with his anti-vax rhetoric but with his attempt to manipulate the Hugo awards:

Now I remember where I’m familiar with him from! George R.R. Martin did a series of blog posts about his and his ilk’s attempts to hijack the Hugos (because women are ruining science fiction, dontcha know?) that I read with horror and sadness.

Racist, misogynist jackass. I can now add stupid to that assessment. But, yes, he is white. Gives the rest of us a bad name.

I agree with your article; but there is one additional aspect, something one runs across now and again. There are people who are extremely intelligent and well-educated, based on years of schooling and experience, who assume they can render opinions on subjects they have not invested time and energy in. For example, a PhD in electrical engineering or chemistry, subjects that take a lot of intelligence and time to master, who, assume that they know more than PhDs in epidemiology and infectious disease experts, equally intelligent and who have devoted years and immense effort into mastering their respective fields.

Medical doctors sometimes are guilty of the same error. Medical doctors are NOT trained in research per se nor epidemiology nor biostatistics. Years ago the field of Clinical Epidemiology was developed; but many doctors have NOT devoted time to learning it. Just to go down memory lane, back in the early days of AIDS a cardiologist in Houston, despite what all the epidemiologists and infectious disease experts were finding, was on radio talk shows frightening people with claims that AIDS could be transmitted by mosquitos.

So, while your article is correct, there are highly intelligent well-educated people who still DON’T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.

And then there’s Jake wasting ( a) relevant graduate degree/s.

According to a recent Gallup poll, the belief that vaccines cause autism is only slightly higher among US adults with college educations (7%) than among those with only a high school degree or less (6%)—but those who have done graduate work or achieved advanced degrees are less likely (3%) to believe that swill. So much for anti-vaxxers being “better educated.”

http://www.gallup.com/poll/181844/percentage-saying-vaccines-vital-dips-slightly.aspx

Vox Day isn’t ‘stupid’ he’s just a very warped and disgusting human human being. No, the Stupid Award of the day goes to the authors of the study, and anyone else (oh no, Orac?) who imagines it offers any useful guidelines for ‘public health messaging strategies’. The demographic categories are so broad as to be meaningless in defining audience characteristics, and the assumptions being made about what they imply are simply ridiculous.

Some have reasoned from findings that high-PBE communities are better educated that public health strategies should focus on disseminating more scientific data on vaccine safety and the consequences of vaccine preventable illnesses.

Talk about burning stupid! It ought to be obvious that simply obtaining a college degree in something not only doesn’t equip someone to comprehend scientific data, it doesn’t have any relevance in whether someone will find that data persuasive in comparison to other sets of facts, beliefs, emotional appeals, yada, yada, yada. The relevant factor in education background viz science data is likely not ‘smart/dumb’ but rather socialization in appreciating/accepting the results of natural science research. The majority of smart, well-educated people ind stats dull as dishwater outside of perhaps their own professional field.

there is little doubt that misperceptions of vaccine risks drive vaccine refusals

Uhh, NO! The issue isn’t ‘perception’, it’s interpretation. Non-vaxing parents know, generally, what the data say about risks – they just don’t believe it, or have different criteria for assessing risk. If they’re worried enough about the possibility of having an ASD child, that emotion will lead them to over-value any claim of risk about that, and under-value any claim about VPDs, either for their kids or the community.

The factors that go into “the sense of privilege’ Orac discusses near the end of the OP are far too specific and complex to be ascribed to ‘whiteness’ ‘education’ ‘affluence’ or ‘suburbia’. Obviously, the majority of parents in those demographic categories DO vax their kids, and the study does nothing to address one thing we do now about vax-refusal and PBEs — they cluster in relatively small geographic areas that are demographically similar to surrounding areas with much higher vax rates.

also important may be beliefs among upper-income, White parents that protective parenting techniques are effective substitutes for immunizations.

This painfully tortured grammar is basically expressing an ‘all men are Socrates’ logic error. ‘The belief that protective parenting techniques are effective substitutes for immunizations’ being more common among upper-income, White parents than other demographics, but that hardly makes it a characteristic of those categories. In short, they’re not ‘predictive’ of anything.

There’s also a totally unsupported implicit assumption here that ‘belief that protective parenting techniques are effective substitutes for immunizations’ is a defining factor in the choice not-to-vax. We can probably say with some confidence that most anti-vax activists have such a belief, but we know they’re an extremist fringe, whose numbers are not large enough to cause vax rates to drop enough to threaten community immunity and generate VPD outbreaks. We can’t confidently say all, or even most parents who have enough doubts about vax safety to avoid taking their kids in for their shots believe they have superior parenting skills that will keep their kids disease-free. We can only say they’re more afraid of autism than they are of measles and whooping cough.

And I find it odd that the matter of ‘fear’ is absent from this discussion. It makes sense that fear of autism would have some correlation with higher SES, if only in that lower-income, non-Whites have a lot more sh!t to worry about. But while a certain level of privilege may be a necessary precondition of non-vaxing-level fear of autism, it’s hardly therefore causative in any way.

The question is, ‘what makes autism a driving fear for the parents who seek PBEs?’. I doubt there’s one answer, but I’ll speculate that rising general angst among the White middle-class at their declining economic fortunes and socio-cultural power has a lot to do with it. We see this angst projected into all manner of superficially bizarre phenomena these days — perhaps most notably in the Trump effect. In short, no-vaxing may not be about the reality of vaccines or autism at all, but how these things function as displacements for other concerns among a certain sub-set of the population facing similar apparent socio-economic crises they can’t really comprehend or address within their ideological frames of reference.

Ah, yes, the racist, sexist, homophobic dipshit* who blithely lies about everything in sight and then insists he is being “dialectic” when called on it over on File 770. He is also a defender of Anders Brevik. As we say elsenet, if VD said that the sun was going to rise in the east, we’d go out and check for ourselves, even if we’d had no previous reason to doubt that statement.

*John Scalzi gets credit for that phrasing.

@Sadmar

You seem to be taking this whole thing quite strongly, if not personally. Wanna taco ’bout it?

I wonder if the belief itself that a child can BE ‘perfect’ is largely restricted to a particular demographic that includes suburbanites exhibiting university degrees, affluence and dreams of continued upward mobility.

There used to be some talk about “premium babies”, referring to the children of the demographic you mentioned but especially when the couple (woman?) waited until later to have a baby. So, even more so if it was an only child, all those hopes of upward mobility and showing up the other mothers at the playground with a perfect child were pinned on the one poor tot.

We can probably say with some confidence that most anti-vax activists have such a belief, but we know they’re an extremist fringe, whose numbers are not large enough to cause vax rates to drop enough to threaten community immunity and generate VPD outbreaks.

Sadmar, are you saying that anti-vax activists in general are so small of a minority they can’t cause reductions in vax rates that lead to outbreaks, or that AV activists with that belief [i.e., good parenting is protective] are in such a small minority as to not cause outbreak-producing drops in vax rates?

@Orac

As for William Thompson, I’m not sure what motivates him. Some of his claims not only don’t make sense; but may not even be true. However, there has always been “scientists” who have taken stands that the overwhelming majority of scientists and the data refutes. Take the few scientists who claimed tobacco wasn’t associated with a number of health problems or the few scientists who oppose global warming. Several of the above, of course, received financing from industry. As for Thompson ? ? ?

@Denise Walter

I hope you are right about my making a splash at AOA. What do you base this on? However, I am but one cog in the wheel of science. Gorski, Mat Carey, Skeptical Raptor, and many more have contributed far more than I have; but I do try.

I found this very relevant article today…

http://reductress.com/post/i-know-whats-best-for-the-health-of-my-family-and-its-magical-thinking/

The issue isn’t ‘perception’, it’s interpretation. Non-vaxing parents know, generally, what the data say about risks – they just don’t believe it, or have different criteria for assessing risk

Exactly. Beginning a sentence with the phrase “The CDC says…” or “Studies show…” ensures that an antivaxxer isn’t even going to consider the attached information, because they know that the CDC is in bed with Big Bad Pharma, that scientific research is bought and paid for, etc. The problem is that, at first blush, this mistrust seems justified: pharmaceutical companies have been caught hiding and/or falsifying data, scientists are susceptible to bias and conflicts of interest, government organizations are influenced by the political realities that control their funding. No attempt to “educate” antivaxxers is going to be successful unless it acknowledges these facts head on and then points out the enormous difference in plausibility between, for example, Merck hiding data suggesting that taking Vioxx results in a small increase in the absolute risk of having a heart attack* (and still getting caught!) versus multiple competing pharmaceutical companies colluding with the public health organizations of multiple nations, paying off hundreds of thousands of pediatricians and nurses to keep quite about the catastrophic side effects they witness after giving kids vaccines, etc.

*I absolutely do not mean to imply that what Merck did was somehow “not that big a deal,” my point is that the only reason they got away with it as long as they did is because the increase in the absolute number of heart attacks in patients taking Vioxx was relatively small and thus, not readily apparent until someone actually ran the numbers. This is, of course, very similar to the antivax claim that the link between vaccines and autism (or whatever the boogieman of the week is) is overlooked by large epidemiological studies because it only affects a small subset of children.

@ Dr Joel Harrison:

As a ‘splash’, I didn’t necessarily mean a conversion or suchlike – you certainly got them riled up.

BUT they did allow you several comments and didn’t censor you . Amazing for them. Perhaps they mistakenly believed that they had answers for your questions/ statements.

I am not sure why so many people are obsessed with their child being ‘perfect’. What does perfect mean? Both of my children were born only through many months (a year each) of painful, frustrating, emotionally draining fertility treatments. They are both perfect. They are perfect the way they are. They are both very different already, and that is perfect too. They will be perfect whether or not they excel at sports. They will be perfect whether or not they choose to play a band instrument. They will be perfect whether or not they are artistic or exceed at school. They will be perfect whether they are gay or straight. They will be perfect for me in all ways, in every way, because I am their mother. I only ask that they be happy for themselves with whatever they do. And have me a grandbaby. Adopt one or something, momma needs someone to spoil in her dotage. As for Vox Day, I really can’t think of a more vile human being. I read a lot about him in the Hugo awards flap, and he makes me sick. Racist, misogynist, ignoramus is a kind way to describe him.

Defacto compulsory vaccination would cause those with certain beliefs to ‘feel’ and be violated

Sorry, but calling school vaccine requirements “compulsory vaccination” is still bull$hit even if you tack on the token qualifier “de facto” – public education is not some basic necessity that’s being denied vaccine dodgers (in this instance I’m using the word “public” in the broader sense of “something that takes place around other people,” i.e., people who may be harmed by your refusal to practice reasonable public health precautions, since it’s entirely possible to receive an education without ever entering a school building.)

No doubt people who hold the belief that the sun won’t come up unless Huitzilopochtli is fed with the blood of sacrificial victims feel terribly violated by our society’s unwillingness to respect their beliefs, and no doubt it’s terribly stressful to be ” burdened with perceived prescience” that the human race is going to end due to our perverse refusal to let them rip the beating hearts out of POWs, but I can’t say I feel terribly sorry for them. Not sorry enough to actually let them practice human sacrifice, anyways.

I have no problem imagining the implementation of mass vaccination via mosquitoes and it, either intentionally or not, going horribly wrong

I have no problem imagining that you’re a child molester – what’s your point?

They may be more educated, but if they were well-educated they wouldn’t be antivaxxers.

The very simple fact of the matter is that vaccines are far, far less important in halting the spread of infectious disease than controlling entry and immigration from non-first world countries.

Does…does he not know what the word “infectious” means? Is he unaware that diseases can spread to the US from third world countries without any citizen of those countries actually coming here and coughing on us?

The membership of Mensa is the best evidence that IQ is woefully inadequate measure of intelligence.

Vicki a @27

He is also a defender of Anders Brevik.

Colour me unsurprised.

@Julian
It’s legit, though the description of application to vaccines is much narrower than reality.

do a web search for Limulus amebocyte lysate
or alternatively for pyrogen testing

All injectable products are subject to testing.

They’ve drawn the attention of William Shatner.

OK, I laughed at that, though I have no idea why.

shay simmons@52

One can only imagine what Vox Day’s reaction was to the new Star Wars movie.

Given that he retweeted this I’d say it’s exactly what you would expect.

People complaining about the new #StarWars movie need to realise social justice is more important than making sense or entertainment.

@Gilbert – I’m constantly surprised at the number of Americans that seem to think their government has nothing better to do than plan mass murder of it’s own citizens. However, given the attitude to guns in America, I’m really surprised that you haven’t realised that the only defence against ebil vaccines is to get vaccines of your own.

@Orac: now I’m really glad that today will be a 1/2 day…I can check on the Twitter feed mentioned when I get to my home computer. I appreciate a good laugh.

From what I understand, Vox Dei is, indeed, the inspiration for that dipshit’s nom de plume. Sigh.

Johanna — Thanks. And sorry for the double post — I’d posted last night but it looked to have been lost.

There can be only one Voice of God, and that was, of course, Don La Fontaine.

Incidentally, Lake Bell’s indie comedy “In a World” is pretty good.

Narad #48, Sarah A #49; Does the idea of mosquitoes as flying syringes seem untenable to you?

In a daring experiment in Europe, scientists used mosquitoes as flying needles to deliver a “vaccine” of live malaria parasites through their bites.

http://www.usnews.com/science/articles/2009/07/30/flying-needles-mosquitoes-deliver-vaccine-through-bites

… mosquitoes to become what the scientists call “flying vaccinators.” … The Japanese group decided to add an antigen-a compound that triggers an immune response-to the mix of proteins in the insect’s saliva…

“The science is really beautiful,” says Jesus Valenzuela of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases in Bethesda, Maryland, who developed the SP15 vaccine.

http://news.sciencemag.org/health/2010/03/researchers-turn-mosquitoes-flying-vaccinators

^^The articles do mention ethical qualms. However, those can be put aside so long as the syringes only affect mammals, birds, amphibians, and fish.

Patented, genetically modified mosquitoes flying about injecting Common Good. What could possibly go wrong??

A holocaust need not be intentional, NumberWang #55 — Can it not be argued that vaccines will, if only very slowly, weed out those who do not tolerate them? We become monoculture without a comparison or fallback ‘control’. At least, you correctly identify ‘corporations’ as our ‘government’.

I grow evermore disillusioned that nobody has addressed my “completely aside from concerns of disease”; Would a compulsory vaccine to prevent drunk driving not fit in with your plans?

Would a compulsory vaccine to prevent drunk driving not fit in with your plans?

That would be a great idea as a condition for obtaining a driver’s licence. If you see a problem with that, then I’m afraid you don’t have a clear concept of rights and responsiblities.

Around here, Meg #72, it is compulsory to get yearly rabies vaccines. This, considering the low risk of rabies and the ever mounting risk of VAS, is retarded a bone of contention.

VAS has become a concern for veterinarians and cat owners alike and has resulted in changes in recommended vaccine protocols. These sarcomas have been most commonly associated with rabies and feline leukemia virus vaccines, …

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine-associated_sarcoma

It’s the adjuvants at the injection site doing what they’re supposed to do — causing inflammation; You see?

captkrunch@#63 — how disappointing. I was hoping for something more apoplectic (or apocalyptic).

Vaccine Preventable Diseases do a far better job weeding out people.

And what about the unforseen, renate #74 — Those who survived The Black Death have offspring with innate immune systems that have resisted all manner of novel disease; Including HIV.

Re Gilbert @81

What is this, I don’t even…

I’m saying, gaist #82, that there needs to be choice lest all or none possibly leads to an genetic apocalypse.

Well, let’s see – up to a third of the world’s population died of plague during the MIddle Ages. But the survivors passed on really strong innate immune systems to their progeny, so the plague was really a benefit!

Guess the subsequent millions (if not billions) of deaths from smallpox, cholera, malaria, influenza, tuberculosis etc. just go to show how bad things would’ve been without those super revved-up immune systems, huh?

10 cases of rabies, in a city just west of me.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/4-more-cases-of-raccoon-rabies-found-in-hamilton-baiting-plans-unchanged-1.3377847

And so long as Gilbert’s here…

It’s the adjuvants at the injection site doing what they’re supposed to do — causing inflammation; You see?

That’s what Purevax is for, genius. Do try to keep up with the times.

Will it become forced to take a mind-altering vaccine against ‘addiction’

I’ve been clean 13 years as of February 6 and can honestly say, had a vaccine against addiction (no quotes) been available, I would have taken it without reservation.

And I’m afraid that you do not have a clear concept of un-molested free will — Including the choice to not endanger, TBruce #75.

Then you would support the right of a blind person to get a driver’s licence, as long as they didn’t drive?

How did this *prion* spread in a vegetarian population?
Since the oldest-known form of prion disease affects sheep, it is safe to say that neither carnivory nor rabies vaccinations are required for its spread.

Good old Teddy Beale. never fails to amaze and astound with new and completely vapid mounds of blazing stupid, stunning all and sundry with his most impressive display of Dunning Kruger Effect.

It’s weird that the health freedom/libertarians worry more about being forced (even though there IS no force, just a choice) to do something that they disagree with than worry about their health but, at the same time, are willing to restrict the movements of entire populations to ‘protect’ that same self.

gaist@102

Happy Unix time shift from 1451606399 to 1451606400, regardless.

Only 695877247 left!

Meg @ #72
If the rejection by the ex Australian Vaccination Network president Meryl Dorey iof real veterinary medicine in favour of a homeopathic vet when her dog was bitten by a snake ( and yes, the poor thing died )s anything to go by, then yes, I’d guess they bypass vaccination for other diseases.
In her own words:
http://nocompulsoryvaccination.com/2010/10/18/a-word-of-warning-dogs-and-snakes/

@ Gilbert,
I suppose stopping with practising medicine alltogether, we will create a race of super-humans, because only the strongest will survive and they will be immune to any illness.

the rejection […] of real veterinary medicine in favour of a homeopathic vet when her dog was bitten by a snake ( and yes, the poor thing died )

It wasn’t thinking sufficiently positive thoughts, or it weakened itself with poor dietary and lifestyle choices, or something.

@Meg
Sorry to say that some pet owners refuse to vaccinate. My neighbor, who won’t get flu shots, similarly refuses to vaccinate her dog except for the rabies vaccine which the city requires before issuing the required dog license. I love the little guy and am terrified that he’ll come down with parvo or distemper. Even asking her husband for permission to secretly take him to a clinic for his shots didn’t help, and trying to discuss it rationally with her almost destroyed our friendship, so now I remain silent. If she figures out a way, she’d avoid the rabies vaccine, too.

Happy New Year everyone and thanks to our host for the blog and the commentators for valuable additions and good humor. Even the crazy ones add something, if only as a demonstration of confirmation bias and logical fallacies.

^ that’d make a good title for a book

That whole story of a CJD epidemic in Kentucky from eating squirrel brains was weird.

Weird, herr doktor bimler #88? I’ll say ‘yep’. But what better way to demoralize all the survivalists who would depend on scrambled eggs and squirrel brains after they bugged out to the woods and hills of eastern Ky; After TSHTF?

I would suggest it could have been a test of a biological weapon — could *prions* not be distributed and concentrated through such baits?

Prions. How do they work?? Oh, yea — Like the potential *Ice-9* scenario with the LHC producing negative strangelets inside our atmosphere where they could contact matter; A little dab will do ya–

This is not a concern for strangelets in cosmic rays because they are produced far from Earth and have had time to decay to their ground state, which is predicted by most models to be positively charged, so they are electrostatically repelled by nuclei, and would rarely merge with them. But high-energy collisions could produce negatively charged strangelet states which live long enough to interact with the nuclei of ordinary matter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strangelet#Dangers

Let me pretend to ‘backpeddle’ just abit, gaist #102. I meant to suggest that there should be a reservoir of those who haven’t been manipulated through *the vaccine scedule* because there may be an unique, innate factor for fighting some unforseen disease in the future. 94-96% vaccinated should leave ya’ll with plenty of pharma shill lucre — Should there not be a reserve of those who are *un-homoginized*??

Alia:Vox Day. When I first encountered that name, it was not in connection with his anti-vax rhetoric but with his attempt to manipulate the Hugo awards: http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2015/04/08/_2015_hugo_awards_how_the_sad_and_rabid_puppies_took_over_the_sci_fi_nominations.html
A true crank magnet, he is.

If that campaign did nothing else it allowed me to put a lot of authors on the do not read list. Day was already on that list, as his blog posts are uniformly horrible and littered with errors. Does anyone know if he graduated from an actual college or high school, rather than some fly-by night Christian outfit? Because I’m pretty sure he isn’t actually college educated.
Slightly off topic- would anyone be interested in a torpedoing campaign against the Hugos? The fact that they could be gamed like that, regardless if the attempt succeeds, suggests that the Hugos should not exist anymore.

Sadmar:” We can’t confidently say all, or even most parents who have enough doubts about vax safety to avoid taking their kids in for their shots believe they have superior parenting skills that will keep their kids disease-free.”

Actually, we can say that. We read their blog posts where they say EXACTLY that.

And I find it odd that the matter of ‘fear’ is absent from this discussion. It makes sense that fear of autism would have some correlation with higher SES, if only in that lower-income, non-Whites have a lot more sh!t to worry about. But while a certain level of privilege may be a necessary precondition of non-vaxing-level fear of autism, it’s hardly therefore causative in any way.

I don’t think it’s fear of autism, exactly. It’s more the fear of raising a non-competitive kid. Parenting is basically a social sport these days- the metric isn”t ‘raising someone to adulthood’ it’s ‘did the kid get into the Ivy League?’

@hdb, yeah.
Graeme Anderson was a healthy young canoeist who competed in the Dusi River Canoe Marathon. He found a stray dog on his parents’ farm. The dog was rabid, and licked him. By the time he showed symptoms, it was too late. Despite undergoing the Milwaukee Protocol, he died.
My understanding is that the Protocol is a “Hail Mary”, a last desperate attempt to save the patient’s life.

Does anyone know if [Beale] graduated from an actual college or high school, rather than some fly-by night Christian outfit?

Bucknell College appears to be a perfectly cromulent private university, although they got caught a few years ago fraudulently falsifying their SAT results.
Perhaps one should instead blame Beale’s felonious father for bringing him up in the ways of Christianism and crime, and setting him on the path of unrighteousness.

The chicken pox vaccine works!

Younger kid was exposed in December, and today is Day 21. No pox.

To those of you who are anti-vax, or selectively anti-chicken pox vax:
would you want your child to spend Christmas (if you celebrate it) and the entire winter break fevered and itchy? Would you really want to spend your holidays nursing a miserably sick child?

Because that’s exactly what your wishes would have meant for my younger kid.

In pre-vaccine days, the older kid would likely be getting it just in time for the return to school in January. And spread it through those classrooms–they’re not in the same school. Older kid is in middle school, when prolonged absence can have a long term negative impact on learning and grades.

Thank you, modern medicine and vaccine developers, for transforming what used to be inevitable misery into something that didn’t happen.

@Delphine – Is “Vitamin H” a euphemism for something? I tried googling it but all that comes up is info about biotin – apparently its good for your nails but I don’t see anything about it being a cure for delusional ramblings 😉

Gilbert asks “How did this *prion* spread in a vegetarian population? How do southeastern squirrels become able to transmit CJD??”
Squirrels, like all rodents, will eat meat when it’s available. Anyone who’s ever baited traps for possum, porcupine, squirrel, or muskrat will tell you that bacon is the best bait, although pork of any kind works pretty well (all even better when mixed with peanut butter). As to deer, try this link: http://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/2013/09/09/the-meat-eating-habits-of-deer/
By the way, what’s with the scare quotes around prion? Don’t you believe in them either?

Chemmomo: I sympathize, as I have a violent dislike of that particular whine. (Of course, no anti-vaxxer would admit that their previous whining resulted in sabotaging the pertussis vaccine, or that kids and people with cancer exist. Or that immune systems exist for that matter.)

Let me also add….the vaccine was approved for general use the next year. I was SO darn mad it hadn’t been available as part of the schedule before that time!

THEO: “… and I’m not fearful of measles, rubella or whooping cough…”

Only because you are a stupid supplement shill.

Ask yourself why are these people so confident to leave your pro vaccination paradigm? what is it that they would risk their offsprings well being?

Ignorance, motivated reasoning and magical thinking.

Thx, Old Rockin’ Dave #129. I did not know that. I figured they only slurp up placenta like cows and horses after the occasional live birth.

The article does note:

Biologists say that this behavior is uncommon and rarely is deer depredation documented…

“Some of these animals really are omnivorous,” U.S. Geological Survey biologist Pam Pietz reported all the way back in 1998.

Which sound to me as if it is either very rare or very new. Maybe these are true ‘zombie deer’ that ought not to be eaten — Or perhaps they were just baited with alpha-pvp or bath-salts licks.

‘Licking’. <–That could spread it, I guess. But the vid of the deer 'eating the squirrel' looked more like he was trying to rouse a fallen friend. And diving into gut piles in search of predigested apples? {aaand, now an old advertising jingle is stuck in my head "…they gobble it down and the yack comes back it's Hungry Jack}
===============

My bad about the 'scare quotes'. I do believe and I think it is scary. A lifeless zombie protein husk of an entity that makes copies of itself by converting others to more zombie proteins just by touching them and that adhear to surgeons' utensils and are damn hard to kill, even with fire; Even formaldehyde 'stabilizes' them for all time — What is not to be scared of? Who knows where these things are hiding or how many are already infected?

Genencor International, Inc. (Nasdaq: GCOR) and the United Kingdom’s Health Protection Agency, Business Division (HPA) announced today the partners have developed an enzyme-based method that effectively eliminates prions.

http://biosciences.dupont.com/media/news-archive/news/2004/genencor-and-health-protection-agency-porton-down-develop-method-to-inactivate-prions/

Porton Down. DuPont. How convenient.

Dr. Frank Bastian. And Bastian is the author — and perhaps the only supporter — of the dissident theory that “prion diseases” and Alzheimers are actually a Spiroplasma infection.

I’d buy that, herr doktor bimler #118; So long as those Spiroplasmids(sp?) pooped out prions.

The Google informs me that four other cases have subsequently survived, though the odds are still unfavourable:

Thank you, Sir Doctor. I knew as soon as I hit post, I should have been more careful in my research. Glad it was more embarrassing.

Maybe these are true ‘zombie deer’ that ought not to be eaten

Or maybe you should ask yourself how much soil cervids tend to consume.

i must admit to not reading the entirety of the article, but, unfortunately, when i read either side of the argument, neither side seems entirely credible. i agree the anti-vaccine crowd seems dismissive of history and epidemics. but the pro-vaccine crowd seems to have no respect for individual rights or a healthy vigilance against government tyranny. i think the individual ought to be able to opt out of vaccination. forcing vaccination upon someone is, ostensibly, sinister. i think that’s self-evident.

Or maybe you should ask yourself how much soil cervids tend to consume.

Deep. Or consider the Dead Milkmen at their word of what a certain demographic is doing to the soil?

PgP, not even. “not even a thing”?? You wouldn’t even bother to humiliate yourself with that reply if you were aware that there are some who call me “Tim, Tlm…”

@PGP – Plasmids aren’t a worm-like life form, they are small, circular DNA molecules that bacteria swap like trading cards. They generally encode some sort of trait that’s beneficial to the bacteria, like antibiotic resistance.

Spiroplasma is a genus of bacteria – I imagine Gilbert was trying to construct a plural form by analogy to some other Greek names like kinetoplastids, which are members of the class kinetoplastida. Wikipedia just calls them “spiroplasmas,” so that’s good enough for me 🙂

Also, Narad @145 beat me to it: we already know that anthrax is spread when an animal grazes on land where an infected animal has died and decomposed, leaving spores in the soil. Prions are similarly environmentally resistant, so it makes sense that they could spread the same way.

“Some of these animals really are omnivorous,” U.S. Geological Survey biologist Pam Pietz reported all the way back in 1998.
Which sound to me as if it is either very rare or very new. Maybe these are true ‘zombie deer’ that ought not to be eaten — Or perhaps they were just baited with alpha-pvp or bath-salts licks.

Ha! Pam Pietz was not keeping up with the literature. Let me refer you to Furness 1988:

On Rhum, Inner Hebrides, red deer were watched biting the heads off manx shearwater chicks and occasionally also chewing the shearwaters’ legs and wings to excise bone. Killing of birds and the selective ingestion of bone-rich parts by ruminants has not previously been widely documented

Or Basely 1989.

There’s a report from 1905 (published in the Spectator) of the importance of lemmings in the reindeer diet,* so this is not new behaviour.

Deer in particular need calcium to grow their attire, so they nom on bones, and they are not always particular as to whether the previous owner of the bones has finished using them. But other herbivores are not averse to junk food.
ht_tp://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2010/12/20/carnivory-in-cows-and-deer/

* Rule #1 of Arctic Ecology — Everything Eats Lemmings.

we already know that anthrax is spread when an animal grazes on land where an infected animal has died and decomposed, leaving spores in the soil. Prions are similarly environmentally resistant, so it makes sense that they could spread the same way.

Scrapie spreads in sheep in exactly that way, and there are descriptions of scrapie from the 18th century, so I’m pretty sure that it wasn’t invented as a bioweapon.

I have a video of an urban squirrel chewing on a chicken bone somewhere. It startled me enough to film it, but a little subsequent investigation revealed it isn’t unusual.

Krebiiiiozen!

Long time no SEE, for some reason!

😉

*giggling in the back seat, like a fox*

Many rodents will gnaw on bones and many that are nominally herbivores will eat invertebrates and occasionally other small vertebrates. What we call “gophers” around here (Richardson’s ground squirrels, Urocitellus richardsonii), are notorious cannibals who will dine on their road-killed brethern. Many years ago I had a pet white-footed mouse. One day I held it up to a moth that was sitting on the wall, not expecting anything particular to happen. The mouse immediate grabbed it and had eaten most of it before the wings hit the floor. (same mouse bit my dad one time – closed its eyes, laid its ears back and chomped down with no intention of letting go) My brother told me of a red squirrel that had laid claim to a flower box. One day a grey jay (called a “whiskey jack” in these parts) landed on the flower box and was promptly decapitated by the squirrel.

I remember seeing something about the Furness 1988 work just after it was published.

The evidence that anti-vaccine parents are richer etc. might simply be evidence that they are neighbors of rich people.

@ Delphine:

re Park life, vitamin H, straw man waiting in the sky
Ha ha ha.

-What Brian Deer said-
True. I think that those who aren’t given validation concerning their intellectual ability especially need to believe that they’re smarter than doctors.

@ Krebiozen:

I often throw chicken bones in the garden behind my building
for the cats but have seen small birds feasting on them. Not sure about the squirrels and other mammals.

This is probably a good place to speculate and develop hypotheses. I am struck that these are wealthy people who live in neighborhoods of high educational attainment, yet they did not achieve the same degree. Could there be an effect of educational disparity much like income disparity, which we believe causes poor health at all income levels?

Any thoughts?

And on the other hand the choice to endanger. Which is not a right anyone has.

Yes, capnkrunch #86. But we must have the right to choose. It is then a responsibility to not endanger; There are all kinds of societal pressures to nudge one in the right direction.

Do you understand how vaccines work?

I think they have the potential to target individual neurotransmitters or regions of the brain —

In response to my question “Would a compulsory vaccine to prevent drunk driving not fit in with your plans?”, TBruce #75 answers “That would be a great idea as a condition for obtaining a driver’s licence.”

^^ In the context of my question, that is not ‘responsibility’ but rather ‘inability’ to do the thing deemed improper. I may as well have asked if it should become mandatory to punch out lobotomies in everyone to prevent unacceptable X.

I lament that driving has been subjugated from the Magna Carta *right* to travel to the State-authorized *priviledge* to do so. In my estimation, most are naturally inclined to not go out on a road trip killing spree – I would prefere signing a waiver that I won’t sue the state if my crap gets banged up on their road over the token getting in line at the courthouse where jumping through saftey pomp doesn’t leave me feeling safe at all.

Were you the obnoxious driver who had a red light in the left hand turn lane, … and almost took off my front bumper by swing to the right in front of me as my lane light turned green?

It is fortunate that you were able to qualify that with almost, Chris #160. For you exercised responsibility in verifying the intersection clear before proceeding instead of blindly relying on a mechanical device — Did you know, had you not done that, you could have born partial fault for not acting to avoid a collision?

But consider the semi or fully autonomous car and its response to an impending collision with a bus full of kids. Will your little 3-wheel bubble-car swerve off a cliff even though you know that school is not in session and can plainly see the bus devoid of children? You would be denied input to save your life at the detriment of no other.
===========
I suspect that A. Noyd #162 is considering a cytokine storm when he says

I don’t know what’s so “incredible” about an immune system whose only tactic is to start laying waste to everything in the body and hope it kills the invader before it kills the body itself. But then, you’re no doubt the sort of moron who thinks the best kind of home defense is to buy a gun and shoot at everything you think is an invader

You have the responsibility to possibly shoot the invader only; Discrimination is an ability. Are you not technically *fighting disease* when mounting an immune response even to the vaccine components? Some suspect this can weaken the overall immune system for the nonspecific. If this causes a somewhat *granulated* immune system to the detriment of a more general continuum one then I’d equate that to trying to use a cheap ratchet with too few ‘clicks’ in a tight space — some positional options (or aiming) just aren’t there.
======================

Could there be an effect of educational disparity much like income disparity, which we believe causes poor health at all income levels?

I have no direct opinion on that, Dino W Ramzi, MD, MPH #167. But, as education is compulsory, I do suspect that the less affluent without the ability to homeschool will be gravitated toward the cheeper adjuvanted vaccines over the good ones. Nor will they be able to afford Purevax for their new kitten.

Some suspect this can weaken the overall immune system for the nonspecific.

You improve your aim but impoverish yourself of ammunition taking pot-shots at shadows.

Jesus wept, PGP. Do you honestly believe that, or are you simply going for provocateur?

I, for one, would be sad if the Hugos were eliminated due to the gaming of the system by a puppy faction or a kitty faction or an aardvark faction or some other faction. That said, I am shocked – shocked – that there are politics in science fiction fandom and at Worldcons!

If the Hugo becomes irrelevant it will be because the Worldcon becomes irrelevant. This in turn will be due to the lack of support from fans.

Do you understand how vaccines work?

I think they have the potential to target individual neurotransmitters or regions of the brain

Huh?

Dino Ramzi @167 —

neighborhoods of high educational attainment, yet they did not achieve the same degree.

One of the nice things about having a PhD is when you have a form that asks “highest degree attained”, you can simply answer “Yes.”

So basically, Gilbert believes that the government has no responsibility to protect anyone because people will behave responsibly on their own volition. That seems realistic.

So basically, Gilbert believes that the government has no responsibility to protect anyone because people will behave responsibly on their own volition. That seems realistic.

That’s always been my problem with libertarianism. It assumes that people act logically. People don’t even always act in their own best interest.

DW: They may be empty suits** with inflated egos but most can understand odds, risks and multiplication tables.
The folks I read can’t seem to grok numbers.

Most MBAs appear to be aspiring to the real-life role of Doctor Evil or a Bond supervillian. It wouldn’t surprise me if Blaxill actually did understand the numbers, but thinks no one will mind if he massages them.

LW: Like you, I think there are serious problems with these awards, which were designed when the SF/F community was very small and the number of eligible works in any given year was relatively low, so it was not unreasonable to expect that voters would have read most of what was eligible. None of that is true now and it makes a difference.

I think the point is to make the community smaller. They think the S/F community ought to be male and white. Therefore, if the community wants any sort of diversity (debatable) or readable authors, the Hugos need to go. Otherwise, it’ll be back to 12-30 year-old males and the same amount of diversity you’d find at the local Klan or Trump rally.

“I think the point is to make the community smaller.”

Don’t confuse the Hugo voting community with fandom in general. The Hugo voting community is a very tiny fraction of fandom. Seriously – I’ve read that there are numerous cons that are ten times or more as large as WotldCon. And many fans — like me — pay no attention to the Hugo Awards, Nebula Awards, or any other awards. In a sense, in my opinion, the whole Hugo flap is a tempest in a teapot since neither side can actually “make the community smaller” or, thanks to the Internet and independent publishing, keep any author out.

The whole thing was very nasty and disappointing to someone like me who has been a fan on the fringes of fandom for a very long time, but it won’t prevent books from being published or read.

LW: “Don’t confuse the Hugo voting community with fandom in general. The Hugo voting community is a very tiny fraction of fandom.”

Yes, but they’re all big-name fans, indicative of the larger community- basically, living barometers.

LW: “On the other hand, I will say that the Hugo flap was quite clarifying. A small number of authors went on my “Not One Thin Dime” list and a much larger number went on my “Check Them Out” list: those who may get my dollars in the future, or got some last year, because I heard of them through this controversy.”

I agree that that was the one useful takeaway. I already avoided Ringo, (mega-creep of the Cosby order) though I was disappointed (though unsurprised) that the guy who wrote Snowpiercer was a libertarian of the most disgusting sort. (Not that there is any other kind; most libertarians think ethics are optional.) The movie sounds good, but I won’t give him the satisfaction. I was kinda disappointed in Moorcock, but I really shouldn’t have been surprised. Mieville was one of the surprises as was Eric Flint. ( I seriously did not know that Mieville was basically a communist with a degree in economics. Oxford must be furious.)
I was kinda surprised that the author of the Martian declined to participate, but I’m glad he didn’t.

Meg: That’s always been my problem with libertarianism. It assumes that people act logically. People don’t even always act in their own best interest.

See above- my big problem with libertarians is that they think ethics are unnecessary, and a whole lot of them are against age-of-consent laws, integration, and the idea that rape is a bad thing, and abandoning your kids is not good.

@PGP

The ethics issue is separate (though, to me equally important). If the premise, that people act logically, held, then one could have an argument about the ethics. But, as the underlying premise is just plain wrong, I’m not going to bother arguing the rest with most of them.

way easier (and lazier) to stereotype

I was going to call those six words PGP’s modus operandi.

After second thoughts, however, I’m not sure raison d’etre isn’t more appropriate.

Well the CDC Whistleblower documents are available courtesy of Matt Carey.

Trawling through the documents, they don’t look that good for William Thompson. If Wakefield convinced him to hand these over, then once again that was bad advice.

@ Chris Preston:

Well, I didn’t expect much but that is pretty abysmal.

@ Narad:

You’d think that all of those *educated*, warrior, feminist, paradigm-shifting mothers would like Hillary but no, she’s alright with vaccines.

And all AoA has is three tediously repetitive posts about Hillary Clinton.

That is better than Dan Olmstead fussing that because he once met a real life small time conspiracy, then all conspiracy theories must be true. Even ones involving the tossing of old meeting agendas into a wastebasket.

^ “(pen-) ultimately based”

@Politicalguineapig, the dead tree edition is available from Amazon; that’s where I got it. You can see the whole thing online starting here:

http://diggercomic.com/blog/2007/02/01/wombat1-gnorf/

@ PGP #119

The mere ‘doubters’ don’t post. I mean real doubt, as in “there seem to be two sides here, and I just don’t know…” The true believer AVers use the rhetoric of ‘doubt’, but they’re obviously convinced. The point here is that there aren’t enough folks on AoA etc. to lower immunization rates to outbreak danger levels, even in the ‘clusters’. There have to be a good number of parents who aren’t passionate or vocal and are just avoiding or deferring the shots for the problem to reach public health threat status.

Fear of having a non-competitive kid is a component of fear of autism, but to the fearful ‘autism’ doesn’t mean ‘high-functioning’ ASD (nee Asperger’s) where the kid can even get on the competitive field. It means an extremely dependent special needs child who will suck up all your time, destroy YOUR chances at a competitive career, and never shower you with hugs and kisses, but just stare off into space in their own private world.

Naturally, the answer I was looking for was *42*

Clause 42 of the Charter guaranteed the barons’ freedom to leave and re-enter the kingdom (except in time of war). It doesn’t seem especially relevant to a purported right of access to roads for internal travel (as in your comment #169).

In a land of liberty, herr doktor bimler #211, each man is his own kingdom and his residence is his castle.

Well, I’m in non-profit (working at a museum) with occasional free-lance work, so I don’t work with any (MBAs)

No shit.

hdb @212 — 42 really is 6 x 9, in base 13.

@pgp #186 Quite a few British writers are politically left-wing. Not only Mieville, but also for example Ian McLeod, Ken McLeod, Hal Duncan and (most notably) Richard Morgan. Might have something to do with growing up under Iron Lady’s rule.

Possibly PGP is confusing Snowpiercer with Snow Crash, which is by Stephenson. I have not read Snow Crash so can’t say what it has to do with libertarianism.

@pgp – Try Morgan’s “Land Fit for Heroes” trilogy. He took heroic fantasy, basically the most “manly”, racist and prejudiced type of fantasy (think Conan) and he turned it into… something totally different. A lot of readers were outraged because his main character, the manly war hero, happens to be homosexual.

why do you believe the Magna Carta has any utility in the modern world, aside from it’s historical status and the documents that succeeded it?

Just because. Well, there is that whole ‘common law’ thing.

Elderly? Yo Gabba Gabba, I like bugs– Bugs, bugs, bugs.
{but I wouldn’t want to drop any spoilers}

Supreme Court citations of the Charter now number over a hundred. A federal district judge even cited it in Paula Jones’ sexual harassment suit in 1994 against President Clinton. She ruled against delaying the suit during the President’s term of office

http://www.historytoday.com/ralph-v-turner/meaning-magna-carta-1215

neener, neener. PgP, why do you hate?

@Gilbert: “the right to travel” /= “the right to drive 2 tons of steel/plastic/whatever through a residential area at 120 mph”

Even in a helecoptor, Sarah A #229?

You wouldn’t even bother to humiliate yourself with that reply if you were aware that there are some who call me “Tim, Tlm…”

Oh, right:

I’m also known as tim; *plonk*

Gilley: Dude, lay off the drugs. That post would’ve been better with just the cite, and preferably, a cite from an academic or law site. I also note that almost all of the circumstances Turner cites are peculiarly English situations. They don’t have a thing to do with American law, except as a point of origin.
Finally, I submit that you should find a better place to exhibit your talking rear end and possibly take up a new hobby. Might I suggest the trombone, suitable for a bag of hot air such as yourself.

HDB: All I need to know about Stephenson is that he was part of the Sad puppy slate, which means he agrees with people like Day and Ringo that the sci-fi fanbase and the writers doesn’t need or want women or minorities around. Which means he can get along fine without my money, as I will not forgive him for those shenanigans.
Shay Simmons: I think he’s counting the air space as part of the ‘neighborhood.’ Ludicrous, but par for the course.

PGP @ 235: I’ve dug around and I can’t find Neal Stephenson on any of the sad puppy ballots. And I can’t imagine in a bazillion years that he’d bother with them, even if he did lean that way (which I’ve never seen any indication of).

Is Neal terribly impressed with himself and write books that are too long and don’t end well (from a writing perspective)? Yes.
Is he like the sad or rabid puppies? No. He’s a nice guy.

Also there were works that ended up on the sad and rabid puppy lists without the knowledge or permission of the creators, several of whom did not find out in time to pull out of the awards voting. And I hardly count The Avengers as a win for the puppies.

The way that the rest of SF/F rescues the Hugos this year is to drown out all the puppies by nominating the Discworld series. I know I’ll pay my $40 to join just to get at that collection (digital copies of all works are available to voting members), even if I don’t vote for it (sorry PTerry).

HDB: Well, recently there was Much Ado About Nothing with bikinis, but as yet, no nude editions of Shakespeare plays. I think the Tempest or Midsummer Night’s Dream might be more suited for an all nude stage production. I don’t know about you, but a nude sword fight, even with blunted swords, sounds like an accident waiting to happen. (Let’s not even get started on what a trainwreck staging Romeo and Juliet nude would be.

Justatech: Maybe there was another Neal on the list, cause I could’ve sworn Stephenson was a ringleader in that particular stunt.

And why wouldn’t you vote for the Discworld series? It’s better than almost anything you can find in fantasy these days. (Although I hate to admit that I couldn’t get through the last book. It hit too close to home.)

I seem to remember Kate Winslet as Ophelia nude in Branagh’s Hamlet.

My apologies, it’s M’oB that wants the naked swordfights. Sorry everyone. Having a bad brain day.

Offhand, there’s the (one-sidedly) naked knife fight in Eastern Promises featuring Daniel Graig in all his glory, and for Shakespeare in the nude(ish), I recommend Prospero’s Books by Peter Greenaway.

/offtopic

— Theodore “Vox Day” Beale

Which takes us back to the OP….

“the puppies Do Not Like Neal Stephenson:”

Beale doesn’t speak for “the Puppies”. He may speak for the Rabid Puppies (his minions) but the Sad Puppies aren’t any fonder of him than you are. When i get a chance, I’ll try to see what some of the Sad Puppies may have said about Seveneves, though they don’t speak for each other or think in lockstep.

@LW True enough. That quote was from pretty much the only article I could find mentioning both N.S. and *any* of the recent Puppy Campaigns, though (it’s from i09), and I didn’t really feel like venturing deeper into the cesspool…

Also, regarding The Martian for PGP -it’s not so much that Andy Weir decided to take the high road and avoid the entire kerfuffle, it’s that the book wasn’t eligible to be nominated because it was originally published on-line a ways back (and then in a Kindle version) but only came out as a print book last year. If memory serves, he got the movie deal and the book deal within a week or so of each other. I actually *heard* about the book when people were starting to ponder what they would nominate for the Hugos and so many people were sad they could not choose The Martian because it was the best thing they’d read that year.

Though Stephenson has a bit of a reputation of being fond of exploring his colon

I suspect that he was exposed to Thomas Pynchon at an impressionable age and has been trying to re-write “Gravity’s Rainbow” ever since.

a nude sword fight, even with blunted swords, sounds like an accident waiting to happen

If people *insist* on that topic, here is a 1644 fencing manual with unclad illustrations:
http://diglib.hab.de/drucke/xb-7532-1s/start.htm

Also:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Pollaiuolo_nude_warriors_in_combat-1470-80-.jpg

Which play is that from?

Hamlet. Said my Laertes as he succumbs to the poison on his blade now wielded by Hamlet.

PGP @239: Because Sir Terry asked to not be considered (back in the day). And something mind blowing might come up. Or Mercedes Lackey could get nominated, in which case I’ve vote for her over anything.

gaist @245: I think you’re thinking of Viggo Mortensen rather than Daniel Craig. (Not that I’ve seen the movie, but ‘hey naked Aragorn’ tends to stick in the mind.

@ JustaTech:

You are correct about Viggo Mortensen in that film- which I saw- but he looked very different than from when he portrayed Aragorn

-btw – there’s a common jibe amongst my cohorts about me and “James Bond” as one of my creatures rather resembles Mr. Craig.

More rantings from a parallel universe. You aren’t exactly a reliable resource.

Johnny: “Denial of reality?” Have you been reading the poster child of unreliability’s posts? Of course I doubted that Biden said it, even though he’s been known for liking the taste of his feet. If Gil posted that the sky was blue, I’d need ten links and a sworn affadavit.
And finally, I am NOT a bigot. I stick to making fun of my own race.

@Politicalguineapig, do you really want to make the likes of Theodore Beale the arbiter of your tastes? Because that’s what you’re doing by saying you wouldn’t read anything by Neal Stephenson because you believed the Puppies (more specifically the Rabid Puppies, Beale’s minions) had nominated his work for something. Do you know that Beale has said that if he’d read the Three Body Problem in time, he would have added it to the Rabid Puppy slate? Would it then have been unworthy of the Hugo? You know, I wouldn’t put it past Beale to put some works that he detests on the Rabid Puppy slate this year, for the sheer nihilistic joy of putting the authors in a position of permanent suspicion — like the suspicion you felt about Stephenson.

I sincerely suggest that you look at works on their own merit, not based on who else might like them. Amazon or similar sites can help — just look up a book or author you’ve liked in the past and see what “people who bought this also bought…”

That’s one reason the Hugo flap can’t reduce fandom to white men 12-30 as you said some time back. The authors you like can still find their audience no matter what happens at Worldcon.

I’ve so far avoided interacting with Politicalguineapig’s more outrageous comments, and probably should keep doing it, but…

Nope, bigotry is and always has been defined as racial prejudice. It’s not bigotry, it’s simply smart categorization. And it makes socializing a lot easier when you have a clearly defined set of taboos to avoid, and you leave the emotions at home, where they belong.

Bigotry* isn’t about race. It originated as meaning religious hypocrisy and evolved from there (except in French where it still means that).

What you’re doing is categorization but it’s not smart, at least at the scale you do it. and as for your justification that it makes socializing easier…

….Why do you think Beale’s reasons for doing it are any different? If you hold your views in higher regard than other people, it’s easy to pretend they’re cardboard cutouts rather than human beings comparable to yourself, but it’s not smart, and while it might make social interactions less stressful for you, I doubt it makes actual social contact easier.

/involvement

Back to skimming some of Politicalguinepig’s comments and scrolling past most.

And my apologies to Mr- Mortensen for mixing him up with Mr Craig.

* (dictionary definition, because everybody so loves being quoted the dictionary): Bigot: One who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.

@Politicalguineapig, I sometimes wonder if you are just trolling us, but you’ve been very consistent for years so unfortunately I guess you really think this way.

Starting at the top of your comment, how can you think that “bigotry is and always has been defined as racial prejudice”? Don’t you have any real world experience?

When a Catholic despises Protestants, when a Protestant despises Catholics, when a Trump despises Muslims, or when a Politicalguineapig despises Christians, they are all religious bigots.

When a Theodore Beale despises women or a Politicalguineapig despises men, they are both sexists, but also bigots.

Moving on,

Actually I don’t want Beale near the fandom or reading ANY books but Rand’s “novels.”

But fortunately you have no power to deny him or anyone else access to any books. If you did, they would likewise have the power to deny you or anyone else access to any books.

He honestly should have been kicked out of Worldcon for this, and his friends should face expulsion too.

He wasn’t at Worldcon. How would you identify his friends? Shall we require them to wear a special symbol, perhaps? Do you really not see where this is going?

But anything Beale likes is something I could probably give up without a tear, given that his tastes are generally abysmal and his writing can’t even aspire to the level of fishwrap.

Oh, okay, so you are willing to make him the arbiter of your tastes. Noted. Not that I’d argue about the quality of his writing. I won’t read it either. But he’s not the arbiter of my tastes.

I’m actually surprised he read the Three Body Problem- didn’t he notice Liu is rather obviously non-white?

You’re surprised? Maybe you don’t totally understand every single action by every single person you’ve ever heard of.

And yes, the Three-Body problem would have been tainted by the Hugo if Beale had nominated it.

That’s not what I asked. Certainly you would have felt the Hugo was tainted, but my question was whether the book would have been unworthy of the Hugo? Is it now unworthy of the Hugo because you now know that Beale read it and liked it? Is it only worthy by reason of the happenstance that he didn’t get to it in time? Will you now not read it or anything by Liu ever again because Beale liked it? Why do you let Beale make that decision for you?

Anyway, what would Beale or any of his friends care what I think? By their lights, anyone with ovaries is non-sentient.

They don’t care. My question was why you care what they think.

The problem is that things can no longer be judged JUST on their own merit, but they have to be weighed against where the money the artist gets will go, what they believe, and what they have done or will do in the future. They have money, and money buys elections.

Oh, dear child.

We’re talking about writers. Generally speaking we’re talking about people have day jobs because writing doesn’t pay enough to pay the rent. The ones who make it big, GRR Martin for instance, still don’t remotely compare with those who make it big in other fields. They’re not buying elections.

Influence is also a currency of its own, as is pure association. (For instance, if a celebrity who’s work I liked hung out with someone else who voluntarily associated with say, Trump or Bill Cosby, or another known sex offender, I’d really have to wonder about them.)

So if X “hangs out” with Y who voluntarily associated with Z at some point in history, X is forever under a cloud of suspicion … you must be a joy in real life: “Do you now have, or have you ever had, friends who have ever voluntarily associated with anyone who was ever convicted or accused of any of the following offenses, including sex offenses, religious bigotry towards Muslims, or general crudeness?”

Libraries provide a loophole, but they might not be around in the future.

Ah, yes, civil society will be destroyed by the next election and life will once again be solitary, poor, nasty, brutal, and short.

International authors are safer, as they don’t have a stake in US policies, and I mostly spend money on either local bands or groups from outside the US.

It may have escaped your notice, but everyone has a stake in US policies. We are simply too big and too powerful for the rest of the world to ignore.

I gave up country music long ago, thankfully.

Given your attitudes, I’m astonished you ever listened to it.

@ PGP
If I should give up on all music made by people who have ideas I don’t agree with, I’m affraid I have to get rid of quite some stuff.
No more Rush, for their love of Ayn Rand.
No more Beatles, for the Eastern philosofies of George Harrison.
And I think the list will go on and on. One member of one of my favorite groups is nowadays a paediatrician who is also in alternative stuff.

“Marion Zimmer Brown”

It’s Marion Zimmer Bradley, and I did grow up on that, but if I had known then what I know now, I wouldn’t have given her a dime of my money. Not because the “wrong people” liked her work, but because of what she personally did.

And, just by the by, I know lots of Christians (also Hindus, Jews, and Muslims). I don’t fudge anything about my non-belief and no one gives me any grief about it. Either you hang out with a really sad group of people, or you have thoroughly misjudged them.

@LW somehow all of that about MZB had escaped my notice until just now, and I’m horrified and saddened. House Between the Worlds was my gateway into f/sf. Piecing things together, I lived in the same neighborhood as MZB until I was about eight. I was usually with the family next door after school and one f their kids was named Cameron, so I had this secret little fantasy that she’d heard our names together at the park and that was where the changeling character’s birth name (Emma Cameron) came from. And now that idea creeps me out. Sigh.

@shay simmons, don’t worry about it. She’s quoting Gaist #267, not addressing her.

What is it with these yahoos’ obsession with the innate immune system? Do they distrust the adaptive immune system because it evolved later and is thus less “natural?”

This, Sarah A #140:

The findings imply that these Neanderthal genes must have served our ancestors well if they are still hanging out in our genome today, and especially at such high frequency…

The innate immune response is different from the acquired immune response that we get through exposure to pathogens, either through vaccines or simply getting sick. Innate immunity kicks in first, and if it’s successful, it can destroy a pathogen in a few hours, before we even know we are sick.

Because this innate immune response is so useful, it has been a strong site of positive selection over time, Quintana-Murci said.

http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-neanderthal-genes-immunity-20160106-story.html

Thx for considering the cost of possibly breaking it for every single individual in favor of a few homogenized, discrete lymphocytes, heros.

@PGP:

It’s not bigotry, it’s simply smart categorization.

Beale says the exact same thing about his bigotry, and it’s just as true for him as it is for you.

I’m actually surprised he read the Three Body Problem- didn’t he notice Liu is rather obviously non-white?

You’ve just demonstrated that Beale is less bigoted than you. Congratulations! That’s hard to do.

By their lights, anyone with ovaries is non-sentient.

The problem with this kind of hyperbole is that it makes people who have any familiarity with what he actually says go “wait, what he believes is odious, but it isn’t that bad.” That’s not the kind of thought you wan them to have.

It also communicates that you’re not willing to make a good faith effort to come to a mutual understanding.

Might I point out that Beale all but qualifies for the Ku Klux Klan?

Yes, Beale is a bigot. So are you.

“My only prejudice is against dumbasses.”

Would you care to re-post the comment you made months ago about all men and rape? How about the times you’ve made sweeping and ignorant generalizations about parents, nurses, MBAs, Southerners, people who live in the suburbs, the English, white males, truck drivers, and just about everyone else who doesn’t fit into your narrow little paradigm?

Even your bragging about your social smarts is another form of prejudice. You believe that you are so smart and so special that no one around you can possibly engage you on your level.

Politicalguineapig, I can’t help noticing that you avoided dealing with Shay’s comment about your prejudices remarks against Southern USAns. You wanted to remove science education and vaccination from the Southern US states entirely just because a few dimwits down there didn’t appreciate them. You also failed to own your rude comments about nurses on earlier threads.
I’m going to have to agree with shay. You are as bigoted, narrow-minded and prejudiced as the people you claim to oppose.

“We as a species have the choice to continue to develop our bodies and brains in a healthy upward trajectory, or we can follow the Western example of recent decades and intentionally poison our population with genetically altered food, pharmaceuticals, vaccinations, and fast food that should be classified as a dangerous, addictive drug.”

…the average government-controlled Westerner as an “intensively vaccinated borderline autistic fat man slumped in front of a screen battling a high-fructose corn syrup comedown,” the report states that such tactics used by governments to subjugate their citizens are not only “dark/evil” but “counter-productive in the medium to long term.”

http://yournewswire.com/putin-human-evolution-under-threat-by-big-pharma-gmo-vaccines/#disqus_thread

How quaint. Putin doesn’t sound like the kind of fellow who would drop a tab of polonium-210 into someone’s Slimfast just becaused they delivered him a little Insolence…

No, wait

Expert on Russia Paul Joyal suggested that “A message has been communicated to anyone who wants to speak out against the Kremlin…. If you do, no matter who you are, where you are, we will find you, and we will silence you, in the most horrible way possible”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko#Possible_motivation_for_using_polonium-210

@PGP:

Considering all the grumbling he and his fellows did about non-white authors ‘stealing’ the awards, turning around and praising a Chinese guy is a bit of a twist, and again, proof that Beale is not smart.

My understanding is that Beale was complaining about alleged politically-motivated voters, not the ethnicity of the authors per se. As I understand Beale**, he wouldn’t necessarily find a good book written by a Chinese male to be surprising.

But even if he was self-contradictory about The Three Body Problem, it would only mean that he was less bigoted than you because he gave the book an honest try and discovered he liked it.

By their lights, anyone with ovaries is non-sentient.

The problem with this kind of hyperbole is that it makes people who have any familiarity with what he actually says go “wait, what he believes is odious, but it isn’t that bad.” That’s not the kind of thought you want them to have.

I didn’t think that remark was an exaggeration.

If I remember correctly***, you could easily make the case that Beale thinks that women are generally less intelligent and make poorer decisions than you would expect given their intelligence level. But even the most hostile reading couldn’t reasonably support the idea that he doesn’t think that women are sentient. This is not a matter of nuance.

It also communicates that you’re not willing to make a good faith effort to come to a mutual understanding.

Finally, no. No, and never. There is no common ground with creatures of Beale’s sort, and no possibility of ‘mutual understanding.’ He’d have to come to terms with the 20th century first.

Wait, weren’t you just indirectly criticizing Beale over allegedly dehumanizing women? No matter. Check this out:

Most white men these days are unemployed and get murderous and rapey.It kinda figures though: men only socialize with other men, and it poisons their ability to connect emotionally with anyone who’s not just like them.

This reads exactly like a Beale quote. I can imagine him putting that word-for-word on his blog. You have more in common than you realize!

As far as I can tell, the biggest difference between you and Beale is that Beale is a prescriptivist bigot, while you are a descriptivist bigot. In other words, Beale feels like the groups he stereotypes should not deviate from his stereotyped behavior, because his stereotyped ‘typical member’ isn’t qualified to do so and calamity could result. You, on the other hand, seem to think that the groups you stereotype simply never do deviate from your stereotyped behavior, nor would they ever want to. But neither is true.

I’m a parent of an autistic child. I’m a member of a socially conservative Christian denomination. I have Southern and English ancestry. I’ve spent most of my life living in suburbs. I’m white. I’m male. I’m pretty much the embodiment of everything you hate, and yet you’ve acknowledged that the things I have to say have value. Why do you think I’m the only exception?

Of course, I could list a half dozen groups I’m a member of that you do value, but I choose not to in order to make a point. When you stereotype the groups I’ve mentioned, you’re stereotyping me. And I don’t fit neatly in the box you’ve assigned me. I’m hardly the only one. And if you were to stereotype me just by the groups I haven’t mentioned, you’d come up with a completely different conclusion, but I’d still not fit neatly in that box either. I’m unique, just like everyone else.

It seems clear that you don’t value having a “mutual understanding” with people unlike you. I guess I should have made it clear why that is important. It’s almost impossible to guess the behavior of people you don’t understand, and it’s even harder to communicate with people if you don’t have a mutual understanding with them. That makes life hard, because we all need to anticipate people’s behavior and to communicate just to get around.

But there is a bigger picture reason why people need to come to a mutual understanding with those they disagree with. No political change is possible without meaningful communication. If they can’t understand you, the things you want seem arbitrary and ridiculous. If you can’t understand them, you won’t know what motivates them. By coming to a mutual understanding, you can communicate your reasons in terms they can understand, and you can understand how to react to their objections in the most effective way. You might even find that they aren’t as irrational as you might think. This is the way that political change happens in the real world. This is the way that people convince other people, one at a time.

You might think that Beale is a hopeless case, and he may have been tunneling in the rabbit hole so deeply that he couldn’t find a way out even if he had an enormous change of heart. But he has an audience that isn’t generally so committed. If you don’t engage, they will spiral in unopposed. Epistemic closure is the danger of social isolation.

** Based on a small sampling of his writing, because his rants are painful for anyone not like-minded to read.

*** Even if I could find the post I’m thinking of, there is no way I’m reading that crap again.

Well, a certain racist, sexist, homophobic dipsh!t who blithely lies about everything in sight made an appearance in the news today (3/12/16) in an item about – you guessed it! – the Donald Trump campaign. Here’s what happened:

A Chicago Tribune photo of an elderly woman named Birgitt Peterson, of Yorkville, Illinois “decked out in Donald Trump campaign swag” giving a Nazi salute outside yesterday’s scheduled Trump rally in Chicago went viral on social media, re-re-re-tweeted or whatever w/o the text identifying her by name. At 3:37AM this morning, a Trump supporter named Jeff Rainforth Tweeted a photo of a woman from Chillicothe, Ohio named Portia Boulger with the text, “Woman at #TrumpRally in Chicago giving Nazi salute is a Bernie Sanders activist.” That Tweet then immediately went viral among the Trumpian Twitterers. It also quickly caught the attention of more sane individuals, who fact-checked and replied to Rainforth. By 6:55AM, Rainforth had crowingly admiited he’d made the whole thing up.

The left lies all the time. And they win elections because of their lies. We shouldn’t fight fire? …I grew up on the streets. Fighting fair never worked. …I love fighting. I love fighting dirty even more.

However, at 5:02AM our buddy Supreme Dark Lord @voxday had screengrabbed (and likely Photoshopped) a different web iteration of Boulger’s photo and Tweeted it out with the text, “The ‘Trump Nazi’ is Portia Boulger, who runs the Women for Bernie Sanders Twitter account. It’s another media plant.” As if it was his unique discovery, not something he’d copped from another Trumper-Twit.

I don’t do Twitter, and am not sure exactly how it works, but I gather you can direct a Tweet to a list of other specific users, so that it shows up in their feeds (is that right?), and among the Twits the blithely mendacious dipsh!t tweeted his ‘outing’ of Boulger to was one Donald Trump Jr. In any event, at 10:12AM Jr. Tweeted a screencap of the Supreme Dark Lord’s post with his own comment; “Big surprise. However the media will never run with this.” Then, at 10:14AM, Jr. replied to a Tweet at him and BigDonald of the photo of Peterson’s salute that had been accompanied by the comment “here are your Supporters. Simple minded bigots and racists” with the retort “apparently you don’t read the news. She runs Bernie Sander’s women for Bernie site. It’s all staged.”

Among other Twitterers who reposted a screengrab of The Supreme Dark Lord’s photo ‘comparison’ of Boulger and the Trib photo of Peterson was actor-and-MENSA-dude Jimmy Woods: “So called #Trump ‘Nazi’ is a #Bernie Sanders agitator/operative?” Which Don Jr. then re-Tweeted, along with apparently some 2.5K other Twits.

Sometime later this monrning, Jr.’s Twitting came to the attention of New Republic editor Jeet Heer, who recognized the @voxday nym and created a TNR ‘Minutes’ blog post with the lead “Following in his father’s footsteps, Donald Trump Jr. retweeted a white supremacist.” The body of the text IDs Vox as Theodore Beale and quotes from “a mini-anthology of Beale’s greatest hits of “racist, sexist, and homophobic hate speech” complied on Rationalwiki.org.

Olivia Nuzzi of The Daily Beast had also spotted Don Jr.’s Tweet and “reached Boulger by phone a few minutes after Donald Trump Jr. tweeted her photo”. Boulger told Nuzzi that she’s had short hair for some time, and was in Chillicothe last night making calls for Sanders from the IBEW union hall. Nuzzi’s article, – headline “Trump Jr. Smears 63-Year-Old Bernie Supporter as Nazi”; subject kicker “Like Father, Like Son”; sub-head “The Donald’s eldest child lied this weekend, claiming Nazi-saluting Trump supporter Birgitt Peterson was actually a Bernie fan in disguise.” – went out on the Daily Beast AM feed this morning. In it, Nuzzi wrote: “The New Republic’s Jeet Heer… reported that the user who Trump Jr. got the photo from, @voxday, is a white supremacist.”*

Weell, that got Bealey up in high dudgeon, tweeting and emailing and blogging outrage that he would be labeled a white supremacist:

You are calling an American Indian – and the great-grandson of a Mexican revolutionary – a “white supremacist.” Retract. Now.

Nuzzi retracted nothing, but amended the text to include Beale’s objection, as quoted above, though she does not identify him in any way other than ” Twitter user @voxday”.
______

Being dubious about the Supreme Dipsh!t’s assertion that he’s “an American Indian”, (you don’t use the I-word these days unless you’re in AIM), I Googled. Seems Vox’s brother did a genetic test in 2014 that revealed a Native bloodline on his mother’s side (how does he think that counts?), but Vox didn’t reveal a percentage or identify a tribe. Google reveals almost no information about Vox’s mom Rebecca, other than that she divorced his millionaire dad after 40 years of marriage when he went full wacko with the ‘Tax Protestor” thing, and ratted out where his assets were hid to the Feds. Yeah, I’m sure Vox is full of love and respect for her heritage, whatever it is. (There’s an entry on RationalWiki:Talk that identifies his mom as Peruvian, but that was entered by a user who subsequently got banned and scrubbed for picking fights…)

Thus, I provisionally conclude that Beale is a Trump Indian, in the sense of Trump University, Trump Steaks, Trump Magazine, etc. etc., and bemoan that Olivia Nuzzi published his identity trolling vomitus.
____
* Nuzzi did not trace back the Tweets far enough to identify Rainforth as the source of the false ID of Boulger, She wrote “Twitter user @new_debis, who uses the hashtag #AlwaysTrump, posted Boulger’s picture”, which is true but misleading, as @new_debis was re-posting Rainforth’s original accusation.