Well, I’m here.
Yes, last night I arrived in Boston for the Society of Surgical Oncology meeting down at the convention center. For any skeptics who might be so inclined the Boston Skeptics are planning a meetup on Saturday, details firming up. No talk this time, but at least we can hang out for a while. There probably won’t be too much drinking on my part, either, because I’ll be flying home Sunday morning, and flying with a hangover is not a good thing. How do I know this? Don’t ask. I am, however, happy not to be in Detroit tonight, given that the Republican debate will be occurring mere blocks from where I work and the area around my university is likely to be a bit crazy.
As a result of my being at the meeting, I don’t know if I’ll have any truly epic posts the next few days. Today, I’ll write about, of all things, an incident on Reddit. Now, count me among the people who don’t really “grok” Reddit. I have an account, but I rarely use it. Certainly the interface sucks, and finding anything is just far more trouble than it’s worth most times. I’m also not particularly thrilled with some of the stuff that’s on Reddit, the racist subreddits, the misogyny, the general nastiness in many subreddits, and the like. Look, I get it. Being pretty close to a free speech absolutist who’s criticized the outlawing of, for instance, Holocaust denial, I get the “total free speech” ethos of Reddit. It’s just that it’s no surprise that the price of that ethos isn’t particularly pretty.
Still, my failure to grok Reddit and my distaste for some of the nastier bits there aside, sometimes Reddit can be utterly glorious. I learned of just such an incident yesterday from The Friendly Atheist as I was collapsing in an exhausted pile on my bed in my hotel room, having had just enough energy left after a day of work and travel to order room service and pass out. The post is on the /r/Parenting subreddit and is entitled My partner and I do not agree on whether to vaccinate our baby. You can see where this is going.
Basically, it’s an antivaccine mom-to-be who is three months pregnant. She and the baby’s father, as often happens, were talking about how they would raise the child, and this happened:
I was raised by a mother in the alternative/natural healthcare field, and am currently earning my degree in holistic health sciences to do similar work myself. Both my mother and I have done enough research (in her case, two decades) to be extremely concerned with the ingredients and side effects involved with childhood vaccinations.
My partner has been on board with all of this since day one. He is still very concerned with an organic diet and all the rest. But now suddenly he comes out with thinking that we should vaccinate the baby. That the CDC, FDA, and EPA are well-meaning, benevolent organisations, and therefore their recommended vaccination schedule has everything to do with safe procedures and nothing to do with corporate payoffs.
I am not here to start the vaccination debate. You do not have to share my views. Their details are irrelevant and I am merely sharing them to share my struggle with the fact that my co-parent no longer shares them.
Writing about vaccine issues for over 11 years, I’ve come across mothers (and fathers) like this many times before. Note the defining trait of such parents, namely the extreme arrogance of ignorance. Truly, this young woman is the Dunning-Kruger effect distilled into a very concentrated form. No doubt her mom’s and her “research” consists of the usual antivaccine research conducted incompetently at Google University. This is particularly not surprising given that her mother works in an “alternative/natural healthcare field”; i.e., she is a quack of some sort. Whether she’s a chiropractor, a naturopath, a homepath, or whatever, we don’t know. I just know that whenever I see someone described as being in “alternative health,” it’s almost always quackery. As for being concerned with the ingredients of vaccines, clearly this mother, going under the ‘nym alicenevercameback, has fallen prey to the “toxins gambit,” a bunch of lies designed to demonize vaccine ingredients and make them sound as deadly as possible.
Also note the purpose of her post. Her mind is completely closed. Nothing anyone can say will convince her that vaccines are safe. Moreover, she isn’t posting to ask for advice about how to deal reasonable with this dispute with her baby’s father, who appears far more reasonable than she is, even being as woo-prone as she in other areas. She wants to win and, well, let her tell it:
Regardless of opinions and whether or not we share them, for me, this decision has been made. In my field I am more informed than most and I would rather die than allow my child to be vaccinated. It is very scary for me to have my partner suddenly question this, especially as he is an expert certified mechanic with no background in the health industry, and little interest in studying up prior to forming his opinion on the subject.
I have bought a stack of books that have plentiful research supporting my views, and furthermore I am writing a report for him which includes all the scientific studies and case studies and information about how vaccinations and natural alternatives work, in order for him to be able to educate himself as quickly and effortlessly as possible. He says he agrees that it’s important to learn, but in practice, still chooses to read other books in his spare time.
“I would rather die than allow my child to be vaccinated”? Histrionic much? Here’s a hint: It’s not about you. It’s about the child and protecting the child from infectious diseases. None of that stops the mother from stating in the comments, “I know what’s best for my own individual child (as do all of us) and am deadly determined to see it through at any cost.”
Actually, not all of us actually do know what’s best for their own individual children, as this thread shows. Also, as another commenter notes:
You would “rather die” than follow current medical conventions for your child? Do you use that kind of hyperbole when discussing the issue with your partner? Because that’s very difficult to respond productively to.
Yes, I can picture from this woman’s posts and comments what discussing vaccination with her must be like. I mean, get a load of this comment from her:
I’m looking for advice on how to talk to him about the fact that this is what my decision is, without stepping on toes, and letting him know it’s his decision too if he chooses look into the issue more. Nothing to do with what the specific decision is in this case, just about how to manage a healthy, equal relationship with the daddy when we are “on my turf” as it were.
TRANSLATION: It’s his decision too, as long as he decides it the same way I do.
Perhaps the father realizes the mother’s bias and is uninterested in reading what he knows to be a mass of antivaccine propaganda, given that she’s probably been haranguing him with antivaccine misinformation for a long time. Look at her description. Personally, I’d love for this woman to publish her “report” online. I can predict what it will say, and I’m sure it is nothing but a mass of antivaccine pseudoscience and propaganda. On the other hand, it is a bit disconcerting that apparently the father isn’t interested in countering this mass of misinformation. Perhaps he knows better than to try or is insufficiently willing to fight to vaccinate his baby.
Now let’s look at some of the responses. For instance:
You may have a degree in a made-up science, but you’re not a medical professional by any stretch of the imagination, nor are you properly informed on the topic. I suggest you look at some evidence-based research and actual scientific data from reputable sources, not just the ones that cater to your preconceived notions and biases. If you can’t do that, then just let the mechanic decide. He’s more qualified.
Heh. This response is even better:
Exactly. You wouldn’t expect a mechanic to fix a car just by holding a crystal near the engine. But you’re asking him to endanger your child by deferring to someone with no medical knowledge. Ask yourself: why do highly educated doctors vaccinate their own children?
Another commenter noted:
This is a problem of confirmation bias. OP did plenty of research for build a case for her position only. That’s not honest research. It sounds like the other half is perfectly on board with there entire hollistic thing, but heard evidence in favor of vaccination.
And:
Nobody here is going to help you act against the best interests of your child, sorry.
Nor should anyone. Not surprisingly, alicecameback did not take well to this criticism, the vast majority of which was reasoned and respectful. She was, however, goaded to reveal more about her “holistic health” background:
I am still finishing it up 🙂 but it is a bachelors in holistic health sciences from the International Quantum University of Integrative Medicine (iquim.org). They are a relatively young establishment so not well known, but many of the faculty members are leading experts in quantum physics and many other areas (the school’s focus is a new perspective on medicine as based on modern quantum physics findings). It’s so fascinating whether you are interested in natural medicine or physics or both! 🙂
Here is the International Quantum University of Integrative Medicine’s website. Let’s take a look at its Bachelor in Holistic Health Sciences:
This is a Bachelor of Completion program to complete a Bachelor in Holistic Health Sciences degree. This program provides a foundation to understand the concepts in Holistic Health, implemented with the diverse modalities associated with the understanding of Quantum Physics:
- Aromatherapy
- Auriculotherapy
- Biofeedback
- Biology
- Homeopathy
- Linguistic
- Nutrition
- Psychology
Whoa. This is some nuclear grade (or should I say quantum grade?) quackery. It also leads to a completely useless “certification” as a Holistic Health Practitioner, taught online by real quacks, like Bruce Lipton! I was particularly amused by many of the courses offered, which include Quantum Hematology, Quantum Hormonology, Quantum Homeopathy, and Quantum Taoist Medicine and Acupuncture, among others.
You know, after reading about this “university,” I actually feel a little sorry for alicenevercameback. She seems to be a mark spending $450 a pop for these bogus quackery courses. Somehow I doubt she’s rich enough that paying for this nonsense isn’t a struggle. Indeed, clearly this woman has been victimized by a scammy diploma mill; one wonders what sort of employment she could ever hope to obtain after finishing her “degree,” such as it is. Most of all, I feel sorry for her baby, given how clueless her mother is. This is how she announced she’d be leaving Reddit:
I really hoped to get some compassionate advice for navigating the first throes of developing a coparenting relationship. I understand that others may believe differently on the specifics here, but I am shocked and disturbed at the sheer amount of hate, scorn, and intolerance we are capable of leveling at fellow beings when we are faceless on the internet. If I was a cultural minority this would be socially unacceptable, yet somehow it is okay to treat me as less-than because I am an intellectual minority… I had no idea what I was stumbling into. I will be leaving Reddit tomorrow.
Of course, she’s comparing apples and oranges. A person can’t do anything about what race she is, what culture she’s been born into, what her sexual orientation is, etc. A person can, however, control what sorts of information she believes in and chooses to impart. Also, her confrontational initial post, in which she blatantly stated that she would brook no disagreement over her beliefs in vaccination and, her later claims otherwise notwithstanding, asking for advice on how to make sure she doesn’t have to vaccinate her baby even though the baby’s father now wants it vaccinated, certainly wasn’t calibrated to provoke reasoned conversation. Yet reasoned conversation is what most of those responding to her provided.
Sadly, this being Reddit and all, even though the publicly posted responses to her original post were, by and large, quite reasonable and patient, there were the usual idiots. In this case, they messaged her privately:
I would just like to share that I have received a lot of hate mail through private message. Multiple people have not just suggested, but urged and begged, that I kill myself.
Some of them have clarified that I should do it after my baby is born. Others have not.
We may be on opposite sides of a debate. Having different opinions is what makes the world go round, despite whatever inconveniences it may cause each of us. That’s okay. But I don’t think it’s okay to tell another human being something so incredibly hateful, and I hope that you don’t think that’s okay either.
Just attempting to put at least some of this in perspective. It’s okay if you think I’m a quack. I just want you to remember that even quacks don’t deserve to be told to die.
Damn. Reddit giveth. Reddit taketh away. There are always idiots on the Internet who make the baby Jesus cry. It’s just hateful and plain wrong to do this. Almost as bad, even if a woman like this is incredibly unlikely to be persuaded, pulling crap like this virtually guarantees that she won’t be. It more or less guarantees that she will cling to her pseudoscience even more fiercely.
Still, this whole incident was worth commenting on because, anonymous hateful trolls aside, it demonstrates so well what happens when an antivaccine quack encounters reasoned and patient pro-science and pro-vaccine arguments. The results are usually not pretty—for the antivaccinationist.
123 replies on “An antivaccine mother asks for advice on Reddit about how to convince the baby’s father not to vaccinate. It doesn’t go well.”
“Both my mother and I have done enough research (in her case, two decades) to be extremely concerned”
The translation of “done research” in this and similar instances is “scoured the Internet for other wackaloons who think like me”.
Maybe she can salvage her relationship with the treacherous partner, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
One thing these quacks have learned is how to have a good website to pull in the suckers, like this anti-vaccine mom. This “iquim” diploma mill has a slick presentation. It’s run by one “Dr. Paul Drouin, MD, PhD, DNM, IMD” who has the psychotic Mr. Clean look down even better than Billy DeMoss, (aka the world’s scariest chiroquacktor). Apparently Drouin was a family doc in Canada who fell off the deep end but was smart enough to do it in Hawaii (where his diploma mill is located) and tag a bunch of fake degree initials after his name besides his MD (and also insist on putting the “Dr” before his name as well, which reeks of pure ego). I’m suspicious a lot of his non-MD “degrees” came from his own “school”. Looking at the “graduate testimonials” page for these quacks from iquim, they all mostly go set up “wellness centers”–places that are almost certainly cash only and rife with worthless supplements.
On a funny note, Drouin has been accused of plagiarism by a fellow quack (of “German New Medicine”) regarding “brain scans”: http://www.germannewmedicine.ca/documents/whygnm.html .
Hm. Somehow I doubt that these “leading experts in quantum physics” could be compared to the folks down the hall from me, who — how to say this — actually are experts in quantum physics.
They probably wouldn’t know a Hamiltonian if it came up and bit them in the ankle.
I’m curious now. What happens when parents disagree on vaccinating their children? How would this be settled if neither will back down, court?
I’m confused by her definition of co-parent. I would think that means that both parents should have input and decision-making should be shared and compromises will have to be made so you provide a united front for parenting.
I think she means it more like 1 person is the parent and gets to make all the decisions and the co-parent is informed as to what the decisions are and should the parent be unable to fulfill their duties the co-parent is to step up to enact the plan that was made by the parent.
I once had a family that was anti-vaccine (well, at least the dominant parent was). Two years later, after the divorce, this AV parent wanted several titers checked (measles, chicken pox, mumps). Lo and behold this child (still not in grade school) had titers for all three. As the child had not had all 3 diseases, it was clear the non-dominant parent had taken the child somewhere (not my clinic) to get vaccinated without the dominant parent knowing. That was a funny phone call explaining what must have happened.
Considering this statement:
…what the hell did she expect?
OMG @Chris Hickie #6
You let the proof that some combination of colostrum, kombucha, seaweed and other supplements or whatever instead of vaccination protocol the dominant AV parent insisted on boost the immune system in ways that actually prevent diseases as well as vaccinations do slip through your fingers!
palindrom got here first, but I agree that this claim is false. Real “leading experts in quantum physics” tend to work for universities or government labs you are likely to have heard of, or at worst they collaborate with people who do. They certainly don’t work for an alleged medical school that uses the word “quantum” in its name–and as we all know from critiques of Deepak Chopra, the use of “quantum” in such a fashion is a red flag. The term “quantum” is properly applied to certain areas of physics and chemistry. Almost any other use of the word is incorrect.
When my girl was born we were very worried, she was our second child and she was very unresponsive, hard difficulty eating, did not smile or make eye contact.
We were desperate to find something to hold on to. And then my wife came home and told about this friend of her who swore that a chiropractor would be the thing.
I was against it – even though in Denmark there is a science based university education in chiropractics, A lot of chiropractors are still woo merchants.
But my wife was desperate and clutching for straws. I gave in, but we talked exhaustively about what chiropractics is, what the difference between the physical therapy component, and he woo component. In exchange for me being worried about what the chiropractor would do, I wanted her to be alert, and concerned.
Well she went one time. It was just as bad as I had feared. He did not manipulate the babys neck – I had put my foot down on that issue, but the baby did not take well to the treatment.
Furtermore he noticed some dry skin on her ear, a leftover from an eczema we had treated with Hydrocortisone. He told my wife this was poison for your body, and recommended a homeopathic treatment.
So thankfully my, rather sensible wife, decided against any more visits.
The point is, it is hard to reconcile big differences when the stakes are high. the anti vacser is wrong, but her fear is real. I pity the father who has to navigate the relationship.
She cries, ” Discrimination!”
I’ve heard that one before! Probably at AoA.
Mike Adams says that Clinton is for choice BUT not VACCINE choice!
It’s interesting how they equate their fantasy system preferences to ethnicity or gender differences
(ALTHOUGH it’s always possible they could twist it into a religious belief since their beliefs are faith based).
-btw-
I like the image of the mother cavalierly putting her baby near dripping, deadly biofilm.
iQuim?? Really?? You owe me a new keyboard. This one is full of tea.
Hang on just a second.
Are we sure this University isn’t just a joke? After all, “quim” has a very rude meaning.
I see Rebecca beat me to it.
It makes perfect sense when you understand her rationale which is ala sMothering i.e. dad is a mere sperm-donor with a wallet. She is the mighty warrior mummy who does her research.
@ #3
A cursory examination of the faculty page reveals Amit Goswami and a short search on the Idiotnet indicates he may actually have a background in quantum physics. If so, he has gone down the Deepak Chopra rabbit hole. He is certainly no Brian Cox or Lawrence Krauss. Also, the URL for the school (“iquim.org”) seems a poor choice for any organization wanting to appear respectable.
iquim run by a big headed bald dude. Can’t make this stuff up.
Formal mathematical constructs don’t often do that, palindrom #3; Therefore it would have to be a Lagrangian Ipso facto.
Damn. There goes quantify.
Eric @9 — They may not understand much about quantum, but I’m sure they’re quite familiar with the Igon value problem.
I went around the physics dept writing that on people’s blackboards, and the usual reaction was peals of helpless laughter.
OMG! There is no way I am shelling out $450, but I would LOVE to savor the quackery of Quantum Hematology.
Ask yourself: why do highly educated doctors vaccinate their own children?
MJD says,
Open Journal of Pediatrics:
In an article entitled, “Vaccination practices among physicians and their children” the authors state “Despite their education, physicians in this study expressed concern over the safety of vaccines”.
http://file.scirp.org/html/22932.html
From the same study:
“Until now few studies have examined how pediatricians
in the US vaccinate their own children [6,7]. The results
of this study bridge this gap by confirming that a high
percentage, 94% of respondents, vaccinated their own
children according to ACIP recommendations through
2009 and will likely continue to do so in the future.”
Antivaxers can flip that around (and have) by trumpeting that 6% of pediatricians don’t follow the guidelines. Seems kind of dishonest though.
Re: Amit Goswami
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Bleep_Do_We_Know!%3F
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfSp-GKrh7w
I suppose youse guys don’t much care for The Global Consciousness Project either:
http://noosphere.princeton.edu/bsktobsrv/basketobserver2.html
Yeah, and the numbers are pretty darn small. They also excluded family practitioners. And I really think the numbers are not presented well. For example, they should have shown that 41 out of the 336 respondents (12%) would delay one or more vaccines and out of that 12%, 12 had concerns about safety (which, in my mind, is a very broad category. What is safety? Side effects? Too many too soon? What?) So really 4% of all general respondents had concerns about safety.
I just think the stats were done poorly.
Off-Topic and Kinda Self-Promotion: if you happen to live in Canada, be sure to watch “the fifth estate” on the CBC tomorrow night (March 4) at 8 p.m. EST. Part of the show will deal with the Miracle Mineral Solution, the cult which sells it, and how anti-vaccine parents are using enemas of it on their autistic kids. Me and three other anti-MMS campaigners have spent the past few months assisting the CBC in research; one of us was interviewed for the report. Dunno yet if it will be worthy of an Orac post, but it will definitely be worth watching. So if you’re in Canada, don’t miss Friday night!
She went on Reddit & was surprised by the response?…oh, I love it when a neophyte enters the lion’s den….
Thanks for the Igon value pointer, palindrom.
I will extract some principled components with my new knowledge.
Thanks Sebastian. We in Michigan enjoy being able to watch Canadian television, and that might be true for some other northern states. Nature of Things had a good new documentary about wolverines the other day, but I learned people in some other states could not see it easily, even via computer. Handy during the Olympics too.
I would suppose IQUIM would only use quarks that have charm and maybe that strange strange. Depending on kinky they are they might use top or bottom quarks.
On any parent that allows preventable harm to a child (such as not vaccinating the child) is a child abuser.
Here’s to the day when the common response to vax-refusal is a call to Child Protective Services, and CPS has the power to get the kid immunized. See also the current presidential candidates’ positions on vaccination (hint: he whose name is on large gaudy buildings, fully subscribes to autism anti-vax conspiracy theory), and make sure everyone you know gets to the voting booth in November.
“…fix a car by holding a crystal near the engine.” Instant viral meme.
IQUIM: hah, and this isn’t the first time we’ve encountered their naughty name in these pages. They are just begging for someone to put up a satire site with a similar name. Satire is protected speech, per Supreme Court ruling a couple of decades ago. Best part is, it’ll be hard to tell the difference.
Palindrom @ 3: Was that _your_ Hamiltonian? Ouch!, my ankle was sore for two days.
I would suppose IQUIM would only use quarks that have charm and maybe that are strange. Depending on kinky they are they might use top or bottom quarks.
On any parent that allows preventable harm to a child (such as not vaccinating the child) is a child abuser.
A little re-edit.
RE: Vaccination practices among physicians and their children study; not only are the numbers small, but is more to do with the ACAP schedule. If one takes the generalist category, 99.27% vaccinated.
Sebastian@ 25 The Fifth Estate is also online, here is link to promo: http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/episodes/2015-2016/true-believers
Been looking for real information for Dr. Paul Drouin, where my research has failed at Google U. Only a passing reference to his school having been Laval University, a reputable school in Québec City, Québec. During that search I did come across that there is the American Academy of Quantum Medicine (AAQM) with Certification and Credentialing ( http://www.qfa-aaqm.org/?page_id=26 ) Sad but there it is.
Interesting reading the comments. Except for the idiots spewing personal attacks, most commentary hands this person her head on a platter, intellectually. They rip apart all the dishonesty and hypocrisy she lays out in attempted to make her case for not vaccinating. She also has the errors of her thinking pointed out without effect. She is clearly incapable of seeing her “research” as useless or confirmation of the Dunning Kruger Effect.
It is really unfortunate for her child (and her parenting partner) that she is so deluded in her thinking (supported by her deluded mother). How/where did education go off the rails such that weak critical thinking is so widely evident? Redundant question, if you considering Trump’s progression in the nomination race (bluster over substance.)
I would rather die than allow my child to be vaccinated. This is really all about her, you know. Dramalamadingdong. She must be an absolute joy as a partner.
We’re getting a sitter and going to the movies this weekend. I’m totally trying “I WOULD RATHER DIE THAN SEE THE REVENANT AGAIN” with Mr. Delphine.
Thanks Sebastian, will be watching! Our publicly financed networks (CBC in English, Radio-Canada in French), although much maligned by conservatives (surprise!), do a fair job of investigative journalism and their specialized investigative programs are remarkably good at debunking quackery when they report on it (and it trickles to their main news sites, who make articles and links on those reports).
The other thing that strikes me about “alice” is her evident lack of maturity. People change over time, partnerships evolve, what you believed 10 years ago might not be what you believe today. Maybe her partner was onboard with her views in the beginning, but subsequently changed his mind. It’s tough when it’s a dealbreaker issue (as vaccines clearly are for her, given that SHE’D RATHER DIE) but you have a kid now and you gotta listen and truly hear. Also is evidence is her disdain of his opinions on this topic based on the fact that he’s a mechanic. What does that have to do with having an equal voice when it comes to parenting decisions? Absolutely nothing, but it does give her an opportunity to trumpet her fauxdentials.
As for the article mentioned by MJD @22
It is published in a journal, with the editor listed as a predatory scholarly open-access publisher by Jeffrey Beall in Colorado.
https://scholarlyoa.com/publishers/
Those people just take your money and will publish anything… I would not trust them one bit.
“I know what’s best for my own individual child (as do all of us)”
It is amazing how blind some people can be. She obviously does not truly believe that everyone knows what’s best for their own child, given that she has clearly stated she thinks her husband does not know what’s best for his child. The very fact that the two of them disagree on this point is clear evidence against her assertion, and she does not see it.
“Nothing to do with what the specific decision is in this case, just about how to manage a healthy, equal relationship with the daddy when we are “on my turf” as it were. ”
I presume she means healthcare is her turf, but the truth is that the turf is the child they have together. And the child is not just her turf.
And then this is the piece de resistance:
“International Quantum University of Integrative Medicine”
I’d laugh, because that sounds *exactly* like something Terry Pratchett would invent as a joke organization on the Discworld. But the reality is too depressing to laugh about. You’re right that she’s basically just a mark for these fraudsters.
“I really hoped to get some compassionate advice for navigating the first throes of developing a coparenting relationship.”
No, she wanted validating advice. There’s a difference. She appears to have no compassion for her husband having his own point of view, which makes it difficult for others to have compassion for hers. She isn’t really seeking a way to navigate this; she’s seeking a way to bend him to her will.
I have bought a stack of books that have plentiful research supporting my views, and furthermore I am writing a report for him which includes all the scientific studies and case studies and information about how vaccinations and natural alternatives work, in order for him to be able to educate himself as quickly and effortlessly as possible. He says he agrees that it’s important to learn, but in practice, still chooses to read other books in his spare time.
This genuinely made me laugh out loud. 🙂
I’m willing to be they’ve been together for under a year. I’d tell him to run, but they’re gonna have a kid…
Having received my PHD (Practitioner of Human Debauchery) from the University of Google College of Information Denial, I am fully as capable as anyone anywhere of explaining what defines a quantum university:
1) An institute of higher learning in which a student can know a. the syllabus of a course, or b. the schedule and classroom assignment of a course, but cannot know both a. and b. at the same time;
2) An institute of higher learning in which one cannot ascertain whether a lecturer is alive or dead until the classroom door is opened; or
3) A school in which pilots obtain their licenses to fly for an Australian airline.
Enjoy Boston. I highly recommend Row 34 for great beer and great seafood (especially oysters). Double Dry Hopped Congress Street by Trillium is otherworldly.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/quantum
Some plethera of discrete quantities X Plank’s Quantifier X (??) == Love
iQuim: The product that will make Apple the most profitable corporation in history.
ORD is that touch only also in VR?
A lost Quantity of Solice in misspelling ‘plethora’ (sorry Howard Cosell)
SIN(X) / N == SIX (the N’s cancel); Six sixes arranged in a circle looks like a daisy. Therefore, it follows that sixual sinusoidal floral figments only ever always {redacted}.
Re: I Quim. On the old American Idol hate-watch website ‘Vote For The Worst’ season 5 contestant Chris Daughtry – who also sported the “Mr. Clean look” ala Paul Drouin (minus the psycho smile) – was referred to as ‘Penis With Ears’. Alas, if the Redditer is any example, the ‘students’ at Drouin’s ‘school’ seem to be in the throws of a woo passion that will keep them from pulling out of the QUIM in time.
‘Quantum Linguistics’: I assume this class is taught by Noam Charmsky, and has the unique feature of being much harder to understand than Derrida.
‘Quantum Homeopathy’: Of course, this debunks the whole ‘it’s just water’ critique. This isn’t a theory class, but rather precise instruction in the shaking-of-dilutions methods that insure that exactly one Higgs Bosun from the Muscovy duck liver remains in the Oscillococcinum, giving it God-like curative power.
She might as well have gotten a degree from the International House of Pancakes.
Rich Bly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teledildonics.
Denise brought iQuim to our attention last year, and noted that it’s part of a larger network of affiliated fraudsters and scammers.
@ KayMarie (#8). I didn’t think about that at the time (and though I would have grinned at the thought, the last thing I’d want to do is fan the embers of woo). From what was said on the phone, it sounded like an attorney was going to use this as ammo in a custody battle, though honestly I don’t know how you could sell that to a judge (i.e. “Your Honor, my client demands full custody because the other parent took this child to be–OH THE HORROR– vaccinated”). Maybe Dorit knows if there have been cases like this (where an AV parent tries to claim their right to not vaccinate the child trumps the right of the other parent to vaccinate the child) and how they’ve played out.
@Takiar #38:
I think that (ahem) “journal’s” predatory nature has been pointed out to MJD before, but don’t really care enough to check.
I wonder if one of the books in that stack is Melanie’s Marvelous Measles?
@Gilbert #24
That dude sounds like a real tool
Nah, this thread is about fake tools, if you catch my drift. (see #s 45, 46, and 50)
Sebastian L. Jackson Âû @26:
Well done. The sheer vileness of the MMS scammers is gobsmacking.
If i recall correctly, Orac recently had a write up on the MMS prosecution. I think the dude got 10 years.
@MarkN #58: He got four-and-a-half years.
iquim, youquim, we all quim for iquim!
I am reminded of the story (was it on Reddit?) of the woman who was so very upset that her daughter used her babysitting money to get up to date on her vaccinations. But a lot can go wrong in the time when a kid is really vulnerable and can’t take direct action like that.
#59 — Yes, but using the quantum dog-year scale (QDOS — holy crap, anyone remember that?), that’s gotta be like 28 years…or at least, it should be
Old Rockin’ Dave, that’s brilliant. 😉
Regarding #1:
This seems like it would describe Unseen University on the Discworld very well. The wizards became quite adept at rescheduling lectures, moving them, or scheduling lectures in halls that were very difficult to find (or, indeed, nonexistant) in a constant pursuit of not having to actually interact with that necessary evil of life in a college: students. 😛
“Students?” barked the Archchancellor.
“Yes, Master. You know? They’re the thinner ones with the pale faces?
Because we’re a *university*? They come with the whole thing, like rats.”
— (Terry Pratchett, Moving Pictures)
“We may be on opposite sides of a debate. Having different opinions is what makes the world go round, despite whatever inconveniences it may cause each of us. That’s okay. But I don’t think it’s okay to tell another human being something so incredibly hateful, and I hope that you don’t think that’s okay either.”
Yes, it’s not OK to tell another person to do whatever, unless it’s to STFU.
And to this woman–STFU. There is no debate. There are no opinions. There is just evidence supported by real data published in real journals. Her opinion is not supported by real data or anything. She’s a close-minded narcissist.
Meh.
Someone needs to explain to her that you don’t get healthy equal relationships with this sort of behaviour.
Ok, guess I better admit it, I googled quim
@Chris Hickie If this was taken to court, the anti vaccine activists would find a painful doze of reality in the courts. Because of the Daubert Standard and even under the old Frye Standard, their “evidence” and “research” would be summarily dismissed by the court. Moreover, because of rule 702 of the Federal Rules of Evidence, their “experts” would be laughed out of court in as much as they could not demonstrate current knowledge of the field in which they claim expertise. Some of these people can sound surprisingly sophisticated but presumably, the trial judge would ask his own expert(an appointed master by the court independent of either side) in chambers –as allowed by Daubert . I suppose, not being a lawyer, that some of the rulings of the judge might become grounds for appeal but I doubt that the appeals court would see what was suppressed by the court as somehow resulting in an unfair trial. The inevitable outcome from such a case would be that the anti vaccine movement would be one test case away from their tenets being explicitly declared child abuse and result in the child becoming a ward of the state. That it has not happened yet puzzles me and I can only attribute the failure of the judicial system in this regard to the absurd poverty of science education in this country. How poor? Darwin has been dead for more than 100 years and he was neither the first nor the last to write about evolutionary processes and yet, teaching evolutionary theory (God Help us and keep us from the idiotic usage of theory) is such a nightmare that most teachers simply don’t bother or skim over it so rapidly that no one has a chance to either learn or protest. Entire states have attempted to ban the teaching of evolution in any form (so no cosmology, no geology, and presumably, no Big Bang Theory (in both senses LOL! )
That being said, I do not fault religious people for their sincere belief in more than merely the divinity of Christ and their desire to live a Godly life. Nor do I fault those whose education has been exceptionally poor and have not had access to the information necessary to understand the issue. However, I find myself enraged by the people with an extensive education in other fields who managed to graduate from college with even less scientific literacy than they had in high school and rather than go back to the university they graduated from and ask a question or two, assume that they know either best or enough. In that regard, I can only feel horribly sorry for this woman (for her limited education), her husband (how long-suffering can anyone be when their child dies of a preventable disease?) and most of all, for this poor child.
I’d tell him to run, but they’re gonna have a kid
I’d tell him to run and take the kid with him.
I just wanted to comment to say that regardless of which argument is “right” or “wrong”, an awful lot of assumptions and stereo types have been made in both the post and the comments about a person that none of you actually know anything about.
The comment that grinds me the most is saying the father is nothing more than being seen as a “sperm donor and wallet by her”, you cannot possibly know that or even slightly assume that from this post and that’s a really horrible assumption to make.
Anyway, the whole reason she has posted is to find out what to do when two parents disagree on something which is important to a child’s health, and all of what I see here doesn’t actually really help with her issue, or that issue if faced by anyone else with either opinion. You say about how she is being bias and how that means that she is being unreasonable/ closed minded/ isn’t facing the problem fairly yet that’s exactly what all responses/ this post/ comments are doing, you all believe you’re right about your opinion and are therefor suggesting her input in her decision for her child is less important and making unnecessary judgements about her as a person.
It’s a shame that she has framed her query in the way that she has and that she comes across as unreasonably closed and to have made her mind up because the actual query is an important one and I myself have no idea what I would suggest and I wonder what all of you would say if it was the father posting about how he can’t get his other half to agree with him that his child *should* be vaccinated? It wouldn’t make sense to suggest to him that his opinion should have more weight in the decision based on bias opinion, that isn’t parents compromising / having equal say.
Would be genuinely interested to hear unbiased solutions to conflicting opinions on this type of decision.
By the way, not that it makes any difference but I am personally for vaccination as I can obviously expect if I hadn’t stated that then commenters would probably assume what they’d like about me too 😉
Anyway, the whole reason she has posted is to find out what to do when two parents disagree on something which is important to a child’s health
That was your takeaway?
Would be genuinely interested to hear unbiased solutions to conflicting opinions on this type of decision.
It’s like any other marital impasse. Either he wins, or she wins, or they compromise. Or, like many marriages (mine included) they do nothing and hope it goes away. Sometimes, doing nothing is actually not a bad thing. Anyway, whatever the decision, no one is going to be truly happy with the outcome. Sometimes, you just gotta suck it up.
The problem is that his opinion is not just based on bias. It’s objectively true.
Most of the regulars around here tend to believe that there is only one reality out there; opinions differ as to what it is, but some are vastly more reliable than others because they are based on reliable evidence and a great deal of careful thought, including a thorough examination of possible biases.
Basically, she is objectively wrong.
Far too many people think that the fervor with which an opinion is held automatically confers validity, as Charles Pierce reminds us at length in his book Idiot America.
This woman is not asking what to do when parents disagree—she’s asking, how do I make my husband agree with me. You’re buying into the false balance meme; on this issue there is one correct position and a clearly wrong position. The correct position is vaccinate the child.
And yes, its fair to wisecrack about her wanting a sperm donor and a wallet. This blog is called “rational insolence,” its not a relationship counseling blog.
What to do when parents disagree is an interesting question, but the answer you’re going to find here in regard to vaccination, is: do the right thing for the child and for public health. These are the four roptions I see : He can 1.convince her she’s wrong, or 2. overide her opinion,and defy her with her full awareness, or 3. sneak the child out to get vaccinated, and or 4.leave the relationship. All of those options have been put forth. Number one doesn’t seem likely, 2,3,4 compromise the chances of a successful marriage.
She can: 1. argue til she’s blue in the face, 2. acquiesce, 3. ignore the fact that he might (and should) do the right thing behind her back, or 4. leave. I left aquiesce off of his choices, because that’s not what science minded readers here would support.
That may have been how she has rationalised it to herself, but that is not why she has posted. She is not interested in finding a solution to the disagreement, unless it is her solution.
As Delphine says, the solutions are either a compromise (not a viable option in this specific example) or one partner gives way or the relationship disintegrates.
In the specific case in point, one partner will under no circumstances compromise or give way, limiting the number of possible solutions available.
All partnerships consist of compromises, it is how you make those compromises that matter. I make a point of giving way on issues of limited importance, no matter how strongly I might feel that it is wrong. That leaves me in a better position with more important issues. Mrs P knows this and it annoys her sometimes how easily I will give way on things. However, as I have learned, life is too short to fret the small stuff.
Had I been the father of the child in this case, I would have given way for the time being and looked for an opportunity to address the issue at a later date. It is always possible to catch up on vaccinations (although that is not ideal). Having said that, I can’t really imagine being in a relationship with someone doing a ‘degree’ at the International Quantum University of Integrative Medicine. I can’t imagine such a relationship lasting past the massive burst of laughter that would have erupted when I first heard of it.
From one of the Ph.D pages:
OK! I think we understand Amit Goswami’s stake here.
and if either of them decide to leave, provided they share custody, she risks his acting on his knowledge in spite of her, he risks losing custody (unless she’s murderer, she won’t lose custody).
While browsing the Quantum University’s website I noticed they offered a program to become a “Quantum Health Entrepreneur” which has as a subtitle:
“The Secrets to a Highly Profitable Practice”
Well, they don’t seem to be lying with THAT.
Several points: 1. She mentions her boyfriend is a mechanic and therefore is not qualified to make informed decisions. Having been a mechanic and worked 25 years in the automotive maintenance field I have met quite a few intelligent, well informed and read individuals. Especially considering the complexity of the modern vehicles, many mechanics have to be able to think and make diagnosis based on the facts and results of series of tests. So don’t go around berating him because he is a mechanic and you are an internet trained “Healthcare Provider”.
2. She read many books that support her position, I wounder how many she read that do not support her position. If she were really interested in the truth she would read everything she could get her hands on. I will be the first to admit I have had opinions that did not hold up to close open minded review. Perhaps she should get together with her mechanic boyfriend and do a little real research and try to understand scientific research. It is a little different than reading memes in blogs.
Hi Chris are you my husband?
You are from the midwest, but speak with an Australian accent, and are completely besotted with red wine and sea kayaking (although not always both at the same time)?
The “my turf” thing is rather illuminating. When altmed types talk about “treating the whole person” the other side of the coin is that there is no need for specialties. Her “degree” makes her better informed on all things healthcare. More accurately, being partway through a fake degree makes her knowledgable enough to question the scientific consensus on vaccines and heap scorn on her husband for accepting it. She had special knowledge and knows the TRUTH.
Of course actual healthcare workers (at least the self aware ones) recognize that stepping outside of their area of expertise rapidly gets them in over their head. I’m a healthcare professional (paramedic) but I won’t pretend to know more than any of the regulars here about vaccines since my field is emergency medicine. Orac often acknowledges when a topic is outside his expertise.
Quacks do not. That delusional grandiosity that makes alice so arrogantly confident is the same thing that leads naturopaths to believe that asking about it online gives them adequate knowledge to manage a patient’s insulin. It’s part of what makes them so dangerous.
Jo@68
That is an incredibly generous interpretation. Recall that she said she would rather die than vaccinate her child. She wasn’t interested in any kind of honest discussion; just how to make her husband agree.
OK! I think we understand Amit Goswami’s stake here.
When one door closes, another one opens. One door is labelled “Developing a mathematical framework that can simultaneously accommodate what we know about particle physics, and our models of gauge chromodynamic field theory, and the tensor-algebraic four-dimensional paradigm of relativity”. The other door is labelled “Spouting meaningless bafflegab for credulous airheads”.
In other anti-vaccine news, does anyone know what’s happened to Anne Dachel’s fawning piece on Wakefield’s at AoA – it appears to have been scrubbed from the site.
Already noted. Why is anybody’s guess.
^ Although the term “Yankfield” springs to mind.
The EPA has a recommended vaccination schedule?
@Narad – yes, spotted that after I’d posted. Very odd.
I finally fell into the rabbit hole of the IQUIM website. Very much like looking at the lit for some of the commune/cults back in the 1970’s. I was particularly entertained by the information page about accreditation (on the ABOUT tab- “No, Really! It’s optional. Lots of good schools aren’t accredited!” said about a dozen ways) and the repeated use of “doctorate and PhD”. I would figure that someone there would know what PhD means…
@enl: well, for Orac, I’d say PhD stands for Dr of Philosophy. Of the ones obtained from IQUIM, I’d have to go with the other definition….(shudder).
Thanks enl. I once received a spam email offering degrees from “prestigious, non-accredited universities”. After rolling my eyes, I junked it. The phrase should be an instant red flag.
To me, anyone who gets a degree from a non-accredited institution knowing the institution isn’t accredited is at best a fool and at worst a liar.
Chris @ 77, only half of that could apply and it’s probably not hard to figure out which.
We all know two meanings for PhD:
Piled higher and Deeper
Post hole Digger
I would hope that a post hole digger from IQUIM would be useful.
That is an incredibly generous interpretation. Recall that she said she would rather die than vaccinate her child. She wasn’t interested in any kind of honest discussion; just how to make her husband agree.
This is why I don’t think they’ve been together very long. “My way or the highway” doesn’t usually work out over the long haul.
I’m still giggling about her buying books, he swears he’ll read them, then she finds he’s reading other books and not the ones she wants him to read. About 20 years ago I gave Mr. Delphine a very preshus copy of David Copperfield and insisted that he read it because it’s my favourite book and it changed my life!11!!! I kept finding him reading bios of Jerry Garcia in his spare time……..to this day he’s never read David Copperfield……..
Also: Please Hire. Desperate.
If this woman gets her PhD, it could also mean Pushy Harridan, Divorce.
On that International Quantum University of Integrative Medicine. I didn’t even bother looking at the course material, I went right to Accreditations and Associations. Surprise surprise….it isn’t accredited.
In this case, PhD = PHony Degree?
Weird, not once did I ever hear the word “quantum” in any of my hematology courses. Clearly I’m behind the times.
In this particular case, let’s hope it stands for “Public Humiliation for Denialists”.
Also rolling my eyes at the book thing. The nerve! How dare he read a book of his own choosing before finishing every single pseudoscientific tome she has plunked down in front of him!
There was a custody case where one of the key facts of the case boiled down to father of the child wanted to vaccinate, mom didn’t. I think the court ruled in favor of the father that the child be vaccinated. Is that the one where the mom skipped the country for a while with the kid? I know I saw this in the news but it’s Friday and it’s been a long week. I really don’t think the anti-vaccine argument plays well in court, but in practice one parent can gum up the works pretty efficiently if they want to. Particularly if they are the primary custodial parent. I agree with other commenters. It is blatantly clear this woman was not interested in solving an impasse with her spouse/co-parent. She is looking to bend him to her will. Given her derogatory statements of his intelligence (he’s a mechanic he can’t have a healthcare opinion) she isn’t interested in compromise. I also predict that is a relationship doomed to failure unless the poor guy waves the white flag and let’s her do what she wants. It reminds me a lot of the piece on the anti-vax mom who let all of her children get pertussis. When her husband finally spoke up about maybe getting some real medicine for the suffering children she was horrified by his betrayal. Really for these anti-vaxxers its not about reality, it’s not about the partner, and it’s certainly not about the child, it’s all about them and their own vindication.
She’s deleted her post but it’s still in the Google Cache. Orac, you should get the Scapbook plugin for Firefox to save those pages (or some full page screenshot tool).
Love the cartoon! Excellent!
Marc @ # 77: She mentions her boyfriend is a mechanic and therefore is not qualified to make informed decisions.
Yeah, well, ya see, he’s not a quantum mechanic!
Pierce — and now I have this song stuck in my head. 😉
Quantum Mechanic, by Thomas Dolby (and sung by an Italian astrophysicist!)
You’d think she could score him a blivet from IQUIM.
Mandatory vaccination. Problem sorted.
[…] what happened when one pregnant antivaxxer went online to solicit advice about how to keep her unborn child from being […]
Adrian Mills from Norway writes (#106),
Mandatory vaccination. Problem sorted.
MJD says,
There are no mandatory vaccines in Norway.
http://www.fhi.no/eway/default.aspx?pid=240&trg=MainContent_6894&Main_6664=6894:0:25,7661:1:0:0:::0:0&MainContent_6894=6706:0:25,7663:1:0:0:::0:0
Q. Is Norway’s childhood vaccination programme failing?
What this woman may be doing is setting herself up to lose custody of her child in any future divorce proceedings. She has made it quite clear that she is an unfit parent and that her husband is way more competent than she is. A twit like her has no business being anywhere near a child.
No problem. Simply remove the vaccine manufacturer financial liability protection and YOU assume all financial liability. Problem solved.
Kiiri @100:
I believe there was indeed one such case like that. However, there have been several cases where one parent didn’t want to vaccinate and the other one did, and it wound up in Court. As I recall, the Courts invariably ruled that the child should be vaccinated. Don’t quote me on that, though.
Cypher, would you please be a little less ambiguous when you comment? I can’t work out what you’re trying to say.
@ #89 Julian Frost “‘prestigious, non-accredited universities’.”
Now, see, that’s one o them there “Oxy-morons.”
You know, like “jumbo shrimp,” or “Justice Scalia.”
Ent no sech aminal.
Let me just respond briefly to Angela’s comment way up among the comments, ie: “What happens if they do not agree”. I would way it depends on where, but in a case I know of (Finland). The father took the mother to court to vaccinate the child. They were separated and mother had custody, but in that case the court ruled that the mother could have custody, but they took away the right (rightfully so) for the mother to make decisions on the childs health.
I never got the hang of Reddit, but if I did –
To answer Alice’s question of how to convince her baby daddy, I’d tell her to show him her original post.
If that doesn’t convince him to grab the child and run away, both him and the kid are lost.
All the nasty meangirl attitudes on here are a joke, considering that vaccines are exactly the opposite of what y’all think they are.
Here’s 4 hours of PROOF from one doctor of MANY who give lectures on this topic.
Argumentum ad Youtube does not fly on science-based forums, Tac.
4 hours of Suzanne Humphries!!!! Consider me PROOFed.
It is a pity she doesn’t have any evidence to support her PROOFs though.
The only PROOF I would want after 4 hours of Suzanne Humphries is 80 proof.
@TBruce: I don’t think it would take me 4 hours of Suzanne Humphries to drive me to the 80 proof…just hearing her first few words will do that.
[…] the internet, but sometimes, I just need to open my mouth. Such an inspiration hit me while reading Respectful Insolence. In that post, Orac is talking about a reddit thread where a woman with an entrenched antivaccine […]
@louisa #65 .. me too ….. Ha Ha Ha
Good luck to the boyfriend here .. I do wonder the circumstances of their relationship.
I nearly lost it at her mentioning where she got her degree.