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Combining childhood vaccines at one visit is not safe? Wrong, wrong, wrong!

I sensed a disturbance in the antivaccine (i.e, the dark) side of the Force yesterday. No matter where I wandered online and on social media, I kept running into a new article, an article by Neil Z. Miller about vaccines. For example, the merry band of antivaccine propagandists over at Age of Autism seem to like Miller’s article very, very much. So did the vaccine truthers over at—where else?—VacTruth.org. I kept seeing it on Facebook and Twitter, too.

Even though the current vaccine schedule is safe and effective as well as evidence-based and the claim that we give too many vaccines too soon is an antivaccine myth, that doesn’t stop Miller from claiming otherwise in an article just published in the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons (JPANDS) entitled Combining Childhood Vaccines at One Visit Is Not Safe. Now, the first thing I think whenever I see an article published in JPANDS is that it must be so horrible that no reputable journal would touch it with a ten foot cattle prod. After all, JPANDS is the house organ of a group, the Association of American Physicians and Scientists (AAPS), best known for its extreme right wing politics, its members’ belief that they are brave maverick doctors who don’t follow the “herd,” and its utter disdain for any evidence that conflicts with its ideology.

As hard as it is for me to believe, I first discovered the AAPS over ten years ago and was astonished at its embrace of antivaccine views, HIV/AIDS denialism, and other forms of pseudomedicine and medical conspiracy theories. Examples abound. Basically, the AAPS is known for being against vaccine mandates, against Medicare (calling it “unconstitutional”), and against any form of regulation of health care by government. It’s called public health programs “tyranny.” The AAPS has also published bad papers claiming to find that abortion causes breast cancer, has promoted the vile idea that shaken baby syndrome is a misdiagnosis for “vaccine injury,” supported HIV/AIDS denialism, and (of course!) done what all crank medical organizations like to do, attack evidence- and science-based medicine as placing unacceptable limits on physician autonomy. Perhaps my favorite example of AAPS crankery is when it published a blog post (now removed, no doubt in embarrassment) claiming that then-candidate Barack Obama was possibly “deliberately using the techniques of neurolinguistic programming (NLP), a covert form of hypnosis.” The AAPS doesn’t even limit itself to medicine in that it’s also published papers attacking anthropogenic global warming, as though physicians had the necessary expertise to judge the science in that field. Truly, the crank magnetism and arrogance of the AAPS know no bounds. If you don’t believe me, consider this. JPANDS has published articles by the father-son team of antivaccine “scientists,” Mark and David Geier.

We’ve also met Neil Z. Miller before. Well do I remember an article by him and co-author Gary S. Goldman published five years ago that resurfaces from time to time. Basically, it was an “analysis” purporting to show that infant mortality correlates with the cumulative number of doses of vaccine in the childhood vaccination schedule. Let’s just say Miller and Goldstein’s rationale, methods, and analysis were rather suspect. No, wait. Strike that. Let’s just say it was a giant, drippy, stinky turd of an article—and amateurish to bood—whose conclusions were not at all supported by the data or analysis. He and Goldman also teamed up for an equally inept attempt to show that more vaccination correlates with more hospitalizations and deaths. They failed.

So, given how much antivaccinationists like this latest article by Miller, combined with the abysmal (and well-deserved) reputation of JPANDS and Miller’s track record, I was not optimistic that this wouldn’t be more of the same. My pessimism was justified. The main difference is that this latest article is not an attempt at an original investigation, but rather an attempt at a systematic review. Unfortunately, in a systematic review, one is supposed to review the existing literature as comprehensively as one can, discussing its strengths and weakness, not cherry pick a few studies to misinterpret and cite one’s own “studies” far more prominently than they deserve. Let’s take a look.

You can tell from the abstract that this article is basically going to be a rehash of Miller and Goldman’s previous “analysis”:

Although health authorities including the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) claim that childhood vaccines are safe and recommend combining multiple vaccines during one visit, a review of data from the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) shows a dose-dependent association between the number of vaccines administered simultaneously and the likelihood of hospitalization or death for an adverse reaction. Additionally, younger age at the time of the adverse reaction is associated with a higher risk of hospitalization or death.

Which is basically what Miller and Goldman tried, and failed, to show four years ago.

The first mistake Miller makes is the same mistake he’s made time and time again: Dumpster diving the VAERS database. Why do I call it “dumpster diving”? Easy. The VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System) is a problematic database, whose contents are useful for a very limited range of analyses. However, it is also a public database that can be freely downloaded by anyone; so naturally it attracts antivaccine “scientists” like catnip attracts cats. As longtime readers of this blog and vaccine science advocates know, VAERS is a passive reporting system. Anyone can report a suspected vaccine injury to the database. You don’t have to be a medical professional to do it, and there doesn’t even have to be a plausible relationship between the vaccine and the suspected adverse reaction. Indeed, it’s long been known that vaccine litigation distorts the VAERS database, with plaintiffs’ attorneys encouraging their clients to report their children’s cases to VAERS. Consequently, VAERS cannot be relied upon for anything close to the true incidence of specific adverse reactions. If you don’t believe me, let me just mention once again that reports of vaccines turning people into The Incredible Hulk and Wonder Woman have been successfully entered into VAERS.

Why would the government want to set up a system like this? Simple. It’s an early warning system. Even though the database can be distorted and even though its contents are not a reliable estimate of the incidence of vaccine injuries, it’s still useful in that when scientists notice an uptick in the reporting of an adverse event due to a vaccine in VAERS it’s an impetus to study it more deeply and see if the increase is real.

Of course, at some level, Miller must know this, as he spends much of the first page trying to convince the reader that VAERS is valuable and citing CDC studies using VAERS data. (Of course, VAERS is valuable and useful, just not in the way Miller thinks it is.) First, Miller tries to convince us that adverse events are underreported in VAERS:

Since 1990, the VAERS database has received more than 500,000 reports of suspected adverse reactions to vaccines. Although this represents a large number of people who may have been hurt by vaccines, under-reporting is a known limitation of passive surveillance systems. This means that VAERS only captures a small fraction of actual adverse events. In fact, shortly after VAERS was established, a large vaccine manufacturer, Connaught Laboratories, estimated “about a 50-fold under-reporting of adverse events in the passive reporting system.”3 Perhaps 98% of all adverse reactions to vaccines are not included in the VAERS database, and up to 25 million U.S. citizens could have been adversely affected by vaccines in the past 25 years. This well-known disadvantage of a passive reporting system, as opposed to an active surveillance system in which medical workers are trained to systematically collect all cases of suspected adverse vaccine reactions, is rarely acknowledged by health authorities when vaccine safety is discussed.

A better way of looking at this would be that certain kinds of adverse events are underreported and certain others are likely to be massively overreported, thanks to the way lawyers petitioning the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program insist that their clients enter their suspected adverse reaction, no matter how implausible. Miller cites the Institute of Medicine’s report on vaccines to bolster his view, but this is what the IOM actually wrote:

Care must be taken in interpreting information from passive surveillance systems. The extent of underreporting cannot be known. Duplicate reports of the same event for the same patient are common and are not always easy to detect, making totals questionable. Medical information provided on reporting forms is often incomplete. In general, passive surveillance systems are useful in flagging potential problems and suggesting hypotheses. See Chapters 2, 10, and 11 for further discussion.

Which is exactly what I just explained above. The IOM also noted:

From a comparison of spontaneous reports with postmarketing surveillance data, the company estimates about a 50-fold underreporting of adverse events in the passive reporting system. The distribution of types of events, however, was found to be approximately the same; in both cases, the majority of reported events were local reactions or fever. The company has seen a marked decrease in adverse event reports since the inception of VAERS late in 1991, because physicians are now requested to send reports directly to the VAERS contractor.

Miller then cites three studies by the CDC using VAERS: a 2015 study looking at the MMR vaccine in adults; a 2014 study looking at live attenuated influenza vaccine (LAIV3); and a 2013 study examining intussusception after a rotavirus vaccine. The first study is described thusly:

Although 5% of reports were serious, including several deaths, CDC researchers concluded that “in our review of VAERS data, we did not detect any new or unexpected safety concerns for MMR vaccination in adults.”

Note the implication that the MMR vaccine is very dangerous. What Miller neglected to mention (almost as if he didn’t read anything more than the abstract) is that the medical records of patients suffering serious events were reviewed. Of the seven deaths, two were due to cardiovascular disease, one due to a drug overdose, one due to chronic preexisting myocarditis, one due to pulmonary embolus, one due to an arrhythmia. The last one was a patient who had had a renal transplant and was on immunosuppression who died of disseminated varicella. In other words, none of them appear to have been due to the MMR vaccine.

Next, Miller characterizes the LAIV3 study thusly:

Although 8.9% of reports were classified as serious (e.g., cardiovascular events, neurological debilities, and fatalities) CDC researchers concluded that “review of VAERS reports are reassuring, the only unexpected safety concern for LAIV3 identified was a higher than expected number of Guillain-Barré syndrome reports in the Department of Defense population, which is being investigated [sic].”

Note again how Miller tries to paint the LAIV3 as dangerous. This paper is actually a bit more nuanced. For one thing, the rate of serious adverse events reported was generally under 2 per 100,000 doses, which one would note if one reads the whole paper. Be that as it may, this paper only found a possible increased incidence of Guillain-Barré syndrome in the Department of Defense population, which is being investigated—which is exactly what VAERS is for: Early warning and hypothesis generation.

Finally, the last paper cited looked at intussusception after rotavirus. This one was interesting in that it looked at the number of days after vaccination that reports of intussusception were made and found a clustering between 3-6 days, which suggests that there might be a causal relationship based on what is known about intussusception and rotavirus. Also:

In summary, after distribution of 47 million doses of RV5 in the United States, we observed a persistent clustering of intussusception events during days 3 to 6 after the first-dose vaccination. When we combined all 3 doses of RV5, we estimated a small overall excess risk of ∼0.79 intussusception event for every 100 000 vaccinated infants. This level of increased risk in the United States would translate to 33 excess annual intussusception events after rotavirus vaccination with the coverage expected for a fully mature rotavirus vaccine program. This is substantially lower than the number of diarrhea hospitalizations prevented annually (∼40 000) since rotavirus vaccine introduction.

Emphasis mine. Risks versus benefits. Risks versus benefits.

Perhaps the most hilarious part of Miller’s paper is this:

These studies and others confirm that CDC considers VAERS an important post-marketing vaccine safety surveillance tool. Therefore, nobody should be swayed into believing the VAERS database does not contain immensely valuable raw data to be used by independent researchers conducting studies that evaluate the safety of U.S. mandated vaccines. For example, Mark Geier, M.D., Ph.D., independent researcher and former professional staff member at the National Institutes of Health (NIH), published several studies utilizing the VAERS database showing that vaccines containing thimerosal (mercury) significantly increase the odds of developing neurological disorders, including autism.

That’s right. Miller actually cited the Geiers as though they were real researchers and not antivaccine advocates pretending to do research. There’s a reason why I refer to anything the Geiers do with VAERS as “dumpster diving.” In fact, numerous studies have failed to find an association between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism or other neurological conditions.

All of this, of course, was just a lead up to Miller regurgitating his 2012 “study.” I deconstructed that incompetently performed study in detail back when it was originally published; so I don’t really feel the need to go into too much detail, given that you can simply click on this link if you want to go into the truly Oracian-length Insolent deconstruction. there were some truly hilarious abuses of statistics, a seeming fetish for trying to fit Miller’s data to a straight line in the absence of a plausible rationale why it should fit to a straight line, a failure to control for historical trends in infant mortality, and a failure to control for obvious potential confounders, such as birth cohort. It was truly a crappy “study.”

Of course, to Miller, his Truth is being suppressed by The Man:

Our study showed that infants who receive several vaccines concurrently, as recommended by CDC, are significantly more likely to be hospitalized or die when compared with infants who receive fewer vaccines simultaneously. It also showed that reported adverse effects were more likely to lead to hospitalization or death in younger infants.

No. It. Doesn’t. In actuality, the current vaccine schedule is both safe and effective, and, contrary to claims by antivaccin activists, are evidence-based. Nothing Miller has published changes that.

Why is The Truth being suppressed by The Man? I think you know. It’s big pharma, of course:

These findings are so troubling that we expected major media outlets in America to sound an alarm, calling for an immediate reevaluation of current preventive health care practices. But 4 years after publication of our study, this has not happened. Could it be because, according to Robert Kennedy, Jr., about 70% of advertising revenue on network news comes from drug companies? In fact, the president of a network news division admitted that he would fire a host who brought on a guest that led to loss of a pharmaceutical account. That may be why the mainstream media won’t give equal time to stories about problems with vaccine safety.

Boo hoo.

I wonder if Miller knows just how pathetic it is to whine about how a paper he wrote four years ago failed to catch the attention of the press or the scientific community when it was originally published. I wonder if he knows just how much more pathetic it is that he published his complaint in JPANDS, one of the crankiest of crank journals. Obviously, it never occurred to Miller that maybe—just maybe—the reason that his “study” wasn’t picked up by major media is because it was a stinking heap of crap. Unfortunately, so far, it’s worked because memories are short and antivaccine activists don’t care about any evidence that doesn’t support their ideology. Hopefully, this post will serve as a reminder of why Miller’s study is not evidence that the current vaccine schedule is unsafe.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

463 replies on “Combining childhood vaccines at one visit is not safe? Wrong, wrong, wrong!”

Every time I see some new piece of work from the same old pieces of work I wonder: Are there genuinely no honest arguments to support these alternative schedules and so on? You would have thought that at least one argument must have been made at some point in the long, sordid history of the antivax movement that was not blatantly dishonest. Surely not everybody in the world who questions vaccine orthodoxy is a pathological liar?

Except that with each passing example it looks more and more as if yes, they are all either liars or cultists.

There needs to be some kind of rules put in place to demand a certain standard of scientific accuracy for something to be allowed to use such a fancy and credible name like “Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons ” – especially since the name seems to imply that it is an official journal of ALL American Physicians and Surgeons (including our host!).

@Amethyst: One thing the anti-science community does really well is the invention of Orwellian names for things.

@Amethyst, the very first amendment guarantees the right to speak and even to lie. It’s a double edged sword in that way.

That said, I ponder many vaccines given at the same time. By many, I mean the military method, give every militarily important vaccine in one sitting. There has been *real* evidence based studies and opinions that *that* is excessive and may yield defective immunity. As in incomplete or non-existent protection for some of the pathogens being vaccinated against.
But there, we’re talking about a dozen vaccines or more at the very same hour.
I question the questioning, as I currently am healing a minor wound to the base of my thumb from a radiator reservoir hose clamp, while enduring tree pollination and the usual bathing of my entire body with various and sundry pathogens, but remarkably manage to both survive and not have a massive cytokine storm or autoimmune reaction.
As I’m also the guy who reacted within hours of receiving all of those military vaccines, to be fully recovered the next day and treat the rest of those who felt like crap, that’s saying a lot.

Each and every day, at a minimum, we’re exposed to hundreds of thousands of potentially pathogenic organisms and we successfully neutralize them.
Somehow, that got turned into hundreds of thousands of vaccines, in some warped minds.
The fact is, our immune system is a street brawler and extremely good at protecting us. It eliminates most pathogens in a way that our military can only dream of being nearly as effective as. Hell, if our military were even 10% as effective as our immune system is, the global war on terror would’ve been a distant memory.

On a tangent, courtesy of many intrusive memories, for the record, the Yellow Fever vaccine sucks. That one got me ill within a few hours.
Still, it beat the hell out of a case of Yellow Fever! Even today, if I were to be traveling into an endemic land, I’d take that shot. Hopefully soon, a superior vaccine that is in ongoing approval stages will replace it.

Which reminds me, I need to file for a copy of my old “shot card” from the Army. It’d be invaluable to my physician and my continued immunity to various and sundry significant pathogenic diseases.
I’m pretty sure I’m behind on a few by now. I did retire in 2010 and my last round of vaccinations was in 2005…
Yeah, I spent 5 years overseas. Coming home on leave wasn’t fun, with the TSA’s security theater and invasiveness, especially for those who were with US CENTCOM. Don’t get me started on how long the General spent on the telephone getting people off of the no-fly list, so that they could deploy…
Only to be confronted with re-entry onto the list when they completed their deployment.
But, I digress.

This means that VAERS only captures a small fraction of actual adverse events.

I am a bit puzzled by this assertion.
I understand the principle of the “tip of the iceberg” – only a fraction of the whole is observed – but I would expect the bias in reporting to be more severe toward mild adverse effects and less severe toward life-threatening adverse effects, simply because the former are easier to overlook and link to the suspected triggering event, compared to some reaction resulting in hospitalization.

The AVers’ beliefs seem to be the other way round. Some redness on the injection spot or a sore arm, reported every time, but someone turning blue and dropping dead? Nah, the doctor just push the corpse under the carpet and the family goes home without noticing that little Jimmy is not in the car anymore.

@Helianthus:

Yes, absolutely. I saw this previously in debates over cycle helmets – the obsessive-compulsives were suing figures for deaths and serious injuries that were grossly inflated, and defended this as “an estimate based on under-reporting”.

The level of under-reporting of deaths of children in advanced democracies is as close to zero as makes no difference. As we already know from Gardasil, the reality is the exact opposite. Claims of death are logged when the cause of death turns out to be drowning or road traffic collision.

The conclusion here is that “under-reporting” is a magic phrase used by the antivaxers to excuse data that conflicts with their narrative.

@Amethyst, the very first amendment guarantees the right to speak and even to lie. It’s a double edged sword in that way.

This is not a free speech issue, really. It is something masquerading as a medical journal when it clearly is not. There should be a set of criteria you need to fullfill to be allowed to make that claim.

@ Guy Chapman

Claims of death are logged when the cause of death turns out to be drowning or road traffic collision.

To play devil’s advocate, reporting any event is to be encouraged. Physicians are supposed to, no matter that.
In the cases you mention, narcolepsy (not sure the one with the flu vaccine has been confirmed) or, more often, fainting spells are not unheard of in correlation with vaccines (through, usually, fainting happens soon after the injection, not the day after). If it happens while you are driving…
It may lead to spurious correlations in a first pass (hence the importance of a rigorous statistical analysis to sort out the wheat from the chaff), but it’s better than missing some issue.

Now, if the event happened 3 weeks after the vaccination, and after a decade of vaccination there is a distinct lack of an epidemic of suicidal teenagers (more precisely – that the rate of suicide or traffic collisions is no different with or without/before or after vaccination), insisting that this couple of entries in VAERS is the tip of the iceberg is a bit silly.

To play devil’s advocate, reporting any event is to be encouraged. Physicians are supposed to, no matter that. In the cases you mention, narcolepsy (not sure the one with the flu vaccine has been confirmed) or, more often, fainting spells are not unheard of in correlation with vaccines (through, usually, fainting happens soon after the injection, not the day after). If it happens while you are driving…

Oh I agree. A friend’s son has narcolepsy which came on shortly after a vaccination, he is convinced they are related and there seems on the face of it to be some merit in that claim.

However, as we both know, the spurious correlations will likely overwhelm the real in the case of rare events.

So the right thing to do is to record everything, as you say, analyse rigorously, and make damn sure that the database has a big warning saying that correlation does not imply causation.

Oh, wait, it does say that, but these cranks persist in pretending otherwise.

Guy [email protected]:

Except that with each passing example it looks more and more as if yes, they are all either liars or cultists.

Whatcha mean, “more“? Do these lies go up to eleven?

Please can I stess that this organisation of weirdo’s has nothing to do with a far more sensible group the American Association of Pharmaceutical Scientists, who exist to support the analysis of pharmaceuticals and biologics (as well as other forms of bioanalysis in drug development).

@Amethyst: IANAL, but in order for false/deceptive advertising laws to apply, JPANDS would actually have to advertise. I suspect that, as the house organ of AAPS, the primary distribution channel is through memberships in AAPS, similar to the relationship between Science and AAAS. They probably sell institutional subscriptions, but even there it’s hard to make the case that this is illegal as long as they clearly identify themselves as being affiliated with AAPS, which can demonstrate that they are an organization primarily for people who have the MD or similar degree.

AMAZING… I am so happy that everywhere you looked yesterday you kept running into this information! That’s how we know that YOU are going down the drain Orac. You are on the wrong side of history. You are a danger to children. Thank goodness the word is spreading so quickly, more quickly than most of us could even dream. Jump ship now, Orac. There is no doubt anymore… You’re pro-vaccine mantra is based on pure FRAUD and you have the audacity to call Dr. Wakefield a fraud? Please… Spare us.

AMAZING… I am so happy that everywhere you looked yesterday you kept running into this information! That’s how we know that YOU are going down the drain Orac. You are on the wrong side of history. You are a danger to children. Thank goodness the word is spreading so quickly, more quickly than most of us could even dream. Jump ship now, Orac. There is no doubt anymore… You’re pro-vaccine mantra is based on pure FRAUD and you have the audacity to call Dr. Wakefield a fraud? Please… Spare us.

That would be true if there were any evidence to back up the antivax claims of massive harm. However, as we see above, these claims of harm do not stand up to even cursory scrutiny.

So your differently-rational post basically says nothing at all about Orac, only about you. It tells us that your mechanism for telling truth from falsehood is completely dysfunctional. You cannot tell the difference between bullshit and fact, so you are not qualified to comment on anything.

@Eric: Well, I’m not arguing for going after them or anything within the current constraints “of the law” but rather that some new regulation is needed… Like some kind of ruling body to keep a watch over all so-called medical journals out there and make sure they are up to snuff.

Well, I don’t think Orac should be picking on Neil Z. Miller, who has written multiple critically acclaimed books on vaccines. Has Orac published any books about vaccines? I don’t think so!

How about this new book by Miller? There’s a distinguished looking guy in a white coat on the cover and even though it evidently is not Miller himself, he still looks like a doctor:

https://www.amazon.com/Millers-Review-Critical-Vaccine-Studies/dp/188121740X

Neil Z. Miller has also communicated with and facilitated contact (through his daughter) with extraterrestrials, and authored “Gadzooks! extraterrestrial guide to love, wisdom and happiness”.

http://www.worldcat.org/title/gadzooks-extraterrestrial-guide-to-love-wisdom-and-happiness/oclc/47904396

I am not surprised that AoA takes to an authority like Neil. The rest of you are just jealous of his accomplishments. 🙁

… for just a split second after having read your first paragraph, Bacon, I was seriously considering that you were being serious and I had accidentally crossed over into Bizarro Respectful Insolence….!

Bravo!

Actually, Guy, there is so much information out there about the dangers of vaccinations. Perhaps you aren’t looking in the right places?

Over the past few months the videos and parental stories and observations are everywhere. So blessed to have the VAXXED team in place. Love them.

Here’s a few of the stories / videos that I have heard / watched just this morning.

– Baby dying from SIDS within two days of his 4 month vaccinations.

– Baby (who had previously had a seizure post-vaccination), was given vaccines in doctors office and had a grand mal seizure — in the doctors office!! Severe damage done. Doctor denied connection with vaccines. Criminals…

– A person in the military who had severe neurological problems within one week of “mandatory” vaccines.

Again, this was just today in the 20 minutes time that I had to spare to look through my fb feed.

I feel nothing but sorrow for you pro-vaxx nazis. It’s one thing to believe in vaccines, it’s quite another to ignore parental stories and to push so strongly for these unsafe, untested and dangerous vaccination schedules that we promote today. Tragic.

Wakefield and Vaxxed have triggered this resurgence in anti-vax zombie memes.

@DB: That was hysterical. But, for those innocents new to the blog, you might have wanted to add a sarcasm tag. After all, Joey might think you were serious.

@Joey: Yeah, and I’m going to believe all the UFO posts that are all over my FB posting, too. Apparently, UFOs are the cause of chemtrails because the aliens want to make us all docile and easy to conquer. That’s about as plausible as VAXXED is. Actually, it’s MORE plausible than VAXXED.

By the way: called to make my appointment for my MMR booster today. I’ll let you all know when I get it so we can monitor for severe affects and put that I’ve become Linda Blair in the VAERS database… 🙂

As an aside, at AoA there’s some weapons grade conspiracy mongering, and some nasty racism and homophobia coming out in the comments on the Orlando shooting. 🙁

@MI Dawn: I guess it’s safe to say we run in different crowds. I don’t come across any UFO/alien posts. Although I do see some chemtrail posts on occasion (interesting topic with the admission that weather modification is happening).

While you’re at it MI Dawn, why don’t you add a chicken pox, Hep B, Prevnar , HiB, Flu, polio vaccine along with the MMR? (Or you pick the combination since the doctors just pick and choose as they please with zero regard to interactions)… Wouldn’t that be more like what an average baby would get at their “well-baby” visit? In fact, based on you being an adult (weight), Perhaps 3 of each vaccine should be given. But please, yes… Report back ASAP!

AoA has lately been featuring Sheila Ealey of VAXXED! fame. Interesting how they sidle up to minorities when it suits them.

In other news:
Orac’s critic ( Natural News) is hawking his book, Food Forensics, so it’ll become # 1 on book sites. Supposedly he’ll earn very little from its release but he is trying to promote the Revolution. In woo-ville, there’s always a revolution somewhere.

@ MI Dawn:

After receiving a flu vaccine in 2008, I fell down outside a restaurant whilst reading a menu in a Latin language and hurt my leg which has caused me distress periodically. I should sue.

Also the anti-SB 277 madness last year, I think.

Oh oops, it’s the anti-SB277 madness this year. SB277 goes into effect in July. There is a whole lot of frothing going on in the usual circles. Most notably, the first County Health Department to announce that they will be reviewing all medical exemptions filed in the county induced hysteria and vile attacks on the Health Officer who announced the review. The Health Officer has security guards at her office and at her home.

Oh and guess what? Ol’ Del Bigtree incited some of the outrage at one of the Q & A sessions following a Vaxxed screening. There has not yet been a rational discussion of the Santa Barbara Health Officer’s actions so no link.

Re anti-SB277 froth, well there’s been lots on Facebook but mostly in closed groups.

@Wzrd1

Each and every day, at a minimum, we’re exposed to hundreds of thousands of potentially pathogenic organisms and we successfully neutralize them.

That’s why I’m such a big big fan of Crislip’s “The Infection Schedule versus the Vaccination Schedule”: It highlights the relatively wussy antigen load of childhood vaccines.

Hi:

I saw Miller’s post on Age of Autism and was hoping someone would write about it. Good job!

Several years ago I obtained from our local library a book by Miller, “Vaccines: Are They Really Safe & Effective.” For fun I obtained some of the articles cited in the book and compared them to what he wrote about them. Just one example:

Miller wrote: “In 2000, a new study in the Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics confirmed earlier findings that children who received DPT or tetanus vaccines are significantly more likely to develop a ‘history of asthma’ . . . than those who remained unvaccinated.”

From the actual article: “The odds of having a history of asthma was twice as great among vaccinated subjects than among unvaccinated subjects (adjusted odds ratio, 2.00; 95% confidence interval, 0.59 to 6.74).” (Eric L. Hurwitz, DC, PhD, Hal Morgenstern, PhD (2000 Feb). “Effects of diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis or tetanus vaccination on allergies and allergy-related respiratory symptoms among children and adolescents in the United States,” Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics, Volume 23, Issue 2, Pages 81-90)

For those unschooled in statistics, a confidence interval of 1 means no difference between the groups. A number below 1 would mean that the unvaccinated had higher incidence of disease and, obviously, a number above 1 would be the vaccinated had the higher incidence. When a confidence interval’s range contains both and is as wide as this one, it means that any finding could be solely due to random chance, that is, not statistically significant. Either Mr. Miller just doesn’t understand research methods and statistics or . . . In any case, this study clearly does not remotely show anything “significantly more likely.” If you don’t believe me, the study authors’ own conclusion is: “Although it is unlikely that these results are entirely because of any sources of bias, the small number of unvaccinated subjects and the study design limit our ability to make firm causal inferences.” The conclusion should have simply read the results were inconclusive. Claiming that they can’t make “firm causal inferences” would be like tossing a coin a couple of times and claiming one couldn’t make a firm causal inference as to the coin being balanced or not.


I found similar problems with other articles cited by Miller. In addition, he often cited second-hand sources, not bothering to go to the original studies.

However, it doesn’t surprise me that Age of Autism, the unscience, illogical, lack of common sense website, would post Miller. It is as if someone posted 2 + 2 = 5 and a commenter said: “thank you. at last someone who knows the truth despite what the global conspiracy of egg-headed university professor claim in order to see their books. Oh, by the way, you do agree that the shortest distance between two points is by zigzagging?

The first author agrees and so is formed a new website of mutually reinforcing morons.

In an article posted by AOA on June 13, “The Trauma of Orlando,” it stated: “We’re an autism-centric news site. But I see a thread connecting the mass shootings that occur all too often and the autism epidemic. Shots. With bullets. Shots. With syringes.”

Really! Even if there wasn’t overwhelming evidence that vaccines don’t cause autism, the people giving vaccines do it to save lives while the shooter in Orlando’s sole intent was to take lives. AOA just doesn’t know where to draw the line, when to just plain SHUT UP!

@Amethyst, Eric Lund:
Sounding almost like a case for trademark law, which does in fact have to deal with deliberate attempts to create confusion in the marketplace. Perhaps the American Association of Pharmaceutical Scientists could sue the Association of American Physicians and Scientists for trademark infringement.

Of course, that’s not likely to work; not the least of the issues with the idea is that trademarks are the form of IP law that you have to actively enforce in order to maintain the rights to continue enforcing them, and they’ve been around for at least ten years. But trademarks do exist to prevent people from deliberately creating confusion in a field.

@MI Dawn: As it happens, I got a DTaP booster during my visit with my PCP this morning. They handed me a sheet listing, among other things, possible side effects (including estimated probability of occurrence) and medical contraindications, and I signed a piece of paper saying that I had read the sheet. No side effects so far, though as I write this it hasn’t been two hours yet.

@Jenora: An additional problem in this case is that there are only so many possible TLAs and AFLAs, so duplicates are inevitable. For instance, to me APS normally means American Physical Society, but I have heard of at least one other organization with those initials. Even within a field, there can be duplicates: in my line of work GSE can mean either Ground Support Equipment (used with a space flight mission) or Geocentric Solar Ecliptic (a coordinate system). So it would be hard to defend a TLA or AFLA as a trademark.

@Eric Lund: I don’t remember if I’m due for DTaP yet or not. I need to check my records. If I am, I’ll ask to have that added to the mix. What the heck, why not. Then I can post to VAERS about my horribly sore arms (and, if past experience is correct), mild fever, and muscle aches. Flu vaccine is offered at work in the fall, so I’ll get that then.

Sorry guys… You lose the argument every single time when you fail to address the topic of toxic chemicals being injected into babies… Then, you laugh at and suggest it’s the same idea when you (a full grown adult) gets one vaccine vs a 10 lb baby getting 5 vaccines @ one time. Seriously, get some help geniuses.

No side effects so far, though as I write this it hasn’t been two hours yet.

You’ll be stone dead in a moment.

@Eric Lund:
Hence why I said that the fact nobody had done anything for the last ten years was the least of the problems with the idea. It wasn’t really a serious suggestion; more a mention that there are some branches of law that are set up to deal with this sort of vague case of deliberate confusion.

Joey: “Actually, Guy, there is so much information out there about the dangers of vaccinations. Perhaps you aren’t looking in the right places? ”

Oh do please share where the “right places” are located! We would love to learn from your vast experience in science and statistics. It is quite obvious that you know the difference between “anecdote” and “data.”

Thank you for doing this. As you said, it’s been going around, and it’s great to have this response.

Sigh. Apparently, some people find it challenging to realize that there is a right and wrong way to use VAERS. And just treating raw reports as showing something is simply wrong.

@Joey: You’re anecdotes are about as meaningful as mine are. I’ve been in the military and received multiple shots (anthrax, smallpox, yellow fever, etc) with no major adverse effects (beyond some injection site soreness). Both of my children are fully current on their vaccines and get a flu shot each year as soon as it comes out. No adverse reactions at all. So why don’t we just stop with the anecdotes and actually use data to back up our claims, hmm?

My last DTaP booster caused bruising on my head. I tripped over my feet and banged my head on the door. Obviously, if not for the booster, I would have never been in the Dr.’s office and would not have tripped. Maybe I should put that in VAERS.

@ Helianthus

Studies have found that serious conditions are often reported to VAERS and the people reporting them are often lawyers, hoping to document the parent’s suspicion and that a subsequent CDC investigation will bolster their case. VAERS allows anyone to report what they suspect is a connection between a vaccine and some adverse reaction. However, as Neil deGrass Tyson said on the last episode of the recent remake of the Cosmos series: “just because you believe something, doesn’t make it true.” Most VAERS reports, following investigation, are found to not indicate vaccines as causative. Some VAERS reports have the reporting party giving names such as MIckey Mouse, etc. Anyone can, unscreened/unfiltered, submit a report to VAERS.

@ Wzrd1

You write: “That said, I ponder many vaccines given at the same time. By many, I mean the military method, give every militarily important vaccine in one sitting. There has been *real* evidence based studies and opinions that *that* is excessive and may yield defective immunity. As in incomplete or non-existent protection for some of the pathogens being vaccinated against.”

I remember eons ago lining up to receive all the vaccinations, including cholera and plague, etc. That night I couldn’t sleep because both arms were sore and I had a mild fever. I took two aspirins and was fine after awhile.

First, “opinions” have NO credibility. Yes, studies have found that SOME vaccines when given with others lead to a lesser development of immunity. Most of these studies were either combined in one vaccine or given in the same arm. When given in one arm and a leg, for instance, for some reason beyond my understanding, immunity was achieved. However, the Advisory Committee on Immunizations of the CDC is completely aware of this and the vaccine schedule takes this into account. However, sometimes more vaccines are given for catch-up, and the combination may lead to a slightly reduced level of immunity to some of the diseases; but immunity all the same and, of course, the kids will receive boosters.

In 2010 we had 10 deaths in California due to whooping cough. The infants either had been too young to be vaccinated or only received the first shot. The report explained the importance of cocooning, those around the infant being vaccinated or having had the disease. I belonged to an inner city YMCA where many mothers brought their infants in strollers while they worked out. Since I probably had whooping cough as a child, had all the childhood diseases; but couldn’t know for sure since my parents were long gone, I didn’t want to risk infecting some innocent child, even though the likelihood was extremely small; but since I believe in vaccines, I phoned my health plan and asked if I needed an appointment to get a booster. Nope, just go to nurses station with ID. In my car and within an hour of reading newspaper article I was vaccinated. I believe in community. Unfortunately, many antivaccinationist parents believe they live in some isolated world with no responsibility for other children. I wonder how they would feel if their unvaccinated child got some serious disease from another unvaccinated child who had recently traveled abroad with his/her parents?

Neil Z Miler does not have an MD nor PhD from any accredited university.

Some of you are having trouble making sense of some really easy concepts here. I suppose if my neighbor eats a peanut and reacts by swelling up and is unable to breathe… That’s anectdotal too? We need the data that supports the idea that peanuts can trigger an allergic reaction. GIVE ME THE DATA… I can’t see what’s staring me right in the face. Lol. Baby gets 6 vaccines, baby dies the next day. Baby gets 6 vaccines, baby has a grand mal seizure a minute later. What’s so hard to understand? You really need extra data to support that link? Too many flu shots for you guys over the years. Stop now before it’s too late.

@Joey #42

Let’s try a few more examples.
Baby nurses, drinks breast milk, has a grand mal seizure five minutes later.
Baby nursed before going to sleep, died in the night.

Breastmilk causes seizures and SIDS? I promise you we will see much more of those than after vaccines.

Sadly, with millions of kids vaccinated, some bad things will happen right after the vaccine by coincidence. Vaccines just don’t prevent all bad things that happen.

a review of data from the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) shows a dose-dependent association between the number of vaccines administered simultaneously and the likelihood of hospitalization or death for an adverse reaction.

No, it doesn’t, for a couple of reasons. First, you have to control for confounding variables. That entails actually investigating the reports and looking at medical records to confirm whether or not the reported AE is actually caused by the vaccine or something else.

Second, you have no denominator. Miller is forgetting (or intentionally leaving out) all of those people who get vaccinated who do not have an AE. Suppose you have 1,000 people who get the DTaP, HepB, and polio vaccines all at the same visit, of which 10 have an AE that is reported to VAERS. Then you have 20 people who get only one of those vaccines at the visit, 5 of whom have an AE that is reported to VAERS. Looking only at the VAERS reports, you’d think that people who have multiple vaccines in the same visit suffer more AEs. But the 5-vaccine recipients represent only 1% of the total population that got 5 vaccines at the same visit, while the 1-vaccine recipients represent a whopping 25% of the total population that got only 1 vaccine.

That’s a very simplistic example, but it very quickly shows how Miller cannot make the claims he makes.

@Joey

I suppose if my neighbor eats a peanut and reacts by swelling up and is unable to breathe… That’s anectdotal too?

Think of it this way. Your peanut-allergic neighbor eats some chicken and reacts by swelling up. Now, you might conclude that he is also allergic to chicken, completely missing the fact that before the chicken, he had some salad that had a peanut-based dressing on it.

@Joel A. Harrison

I wonder how they would feel if their unvaccinated child got some serious disease from another unvaccinated child who had recently traveled abroad with his/her parents?

Most likely, they would be happy, thinking that their child now has natural immunity. The better question to ask is, how would they feel if their unvaccinated child were infected with a VPD from some other unvaccinated child and suffered serious, permanent sequelae as a result (e.g., deafness, blindness, encephalopathy with permanent intellectual damage, death, etc.).

Joey, I received a yellow fever shot and immediately got up from the chair and exited the clinic as the parking meter was running out on vehicle. I was struck by a car. To review — I get the shot, I walk outside less than a minute later, and I am struck by a car.

The following week I received another immunization, this one for typhoid. Same clinic, same doctor, same chair. However, upon exiting the clinic, I did not get struck by a car.

Should we therefore conclude that yellow fever immunization causes people to be hit by cars? And that typhoid fever immunization does not?

@ Joey

You write:

“Actually, Guy, there is so much information out there about the dangers of vaccinations. Perhaps you aren’t looking in the right places?
Here’s a few of the stories / videos that I have heard / watched just this morning.
– Baby dying from SIDS within two days of his 4 month vaccinations.
– Baby (who had previously had a seizure post-vaccination), was given vaccines in doctors office and had a grand mal seizure — in the doctors office!! Severe damage done. Doctor denied connection with vaccines. Criminals…
– A person in the military who had severe neurological problems within one week of “mandatory” vaccines.
Again, this was just today in the 20 minutes time that I had to spare to look through my fb feed.
I feel nothing but sorrow for you pro-vaxx nazis. It’s one thing to believe in vaccines, it’s quite another to ignore parental stories and to push so strongly for these unsafe, untested and dangerous vaccination schedules that we promote today. Tragic.”

Unfortunately Babies die from SIDS. In one reported case, the father took his infant in for vaccinations, the wait was too long, and he decided to come back another time. Tragically, the infant died that night from SIDS. If the infant had been vaccinated, it would have been difficult to not believe the vaccines caused it. This is the logical fallacy of post hoc ergo prompter hoc. After something so the something cause it. Unfortunately, there are many “somethings” that precede an event. In 1976 a man in Pittsburg got the swine flu vaccine and had a massive coronary. Newspapers played it up, vaccine caused death. Later, it was found the man had had several heart attacks, was in terrible shape, and having the heart attack at that specific time, it probably would have occurred anyway. The later Mayor Richard Daley of Chicago went in for his annual physical. His doctor pronounced him healthy. While getting dressed he had a massive coronary and died. I guess something in the exam did it, taking a little blood for blood test, taking his blood pressure. Well, whatever killed him, I think it best we all avoid going to doctors.

Babies have seizures, especially febrile seizures; but even grand mal seizures, without any vaccinations. Again post hoc ergo prompter hoc.

You write: “Sorry guys… You lose the argument every single time when you fail to address the topic of toxic chemicals being injected into babies… Then, you laugh at and suggest it’s the same idea when you (a full grown adult) gets one vaccine vs a 10 lb baby getting 5 vaccines @ one time. Seriously, get some help geniuse.”

First, thimerosal based on numerous studies done by different researchers on different populations in several different countries found NO association between thimerosal and autism. In fact, the small amounts of mercury in vaccines was less that what one would get from eating fish once weekly and numerous other sources. Also, the EPA safety level was based on numerous studies of what was a safe dose, then they divided it by 10 and then by 10 once more, so even if the total mercury from all the vaccines up to six months slightly exceeded this level it was still almost 1/100th the actual safety level. And the total through age 6 months wasn’t given all at once, whereas the EPA level was per dose. And thimerosal has been removed from all childhood vaccines except the flu vaccine and thimerosal-free flu vaccine can be obtained; but the amount from the one vaccine is so miniscule as to not count. Keep in mind that our bodies are miraculous machines that can protect us against many problems. Since mercury levels were exponentially higher eons ago, bacteria developed ways of coping which we have genetically inherited, including excreting, sequestering, and transforming to less toxic.

As for aluminum, infants get far more from breast feeding or formula. Aluminum is one of the most common elements in the environment, in the food we eat, the water we drink, the air we breath, and through small cuts in our skins. The miniscule amounts in vaccines add almost nothing to what we get on a daily basis. And, again, our bodies as miraculous machines, deal with it.

As a senior citizen, a vegan, and a blood donor, I take a daily iron tablet. But if I swallowed the entire bottle I would be in trouble. I also take one baby aspirin a week and sometime a couple of regular aspirins if I have a headache. If I took the entire bottle I would die a rather unpleasant death, So, iron is something used by our bodies; but aspirin is not; yet small amounts of either can be beneficial; but large amounts dangerous.

As for 5 vaccines at once for a 10 lb baby. Have you any idea how many potentially dangerous microbes an infant is exposed to on a daily basis? Fully functioning microbes. Vaccines contain killed microbes or attenuated (significantly weakened) microbes. Our immune systems are designed to deal with 10s of 1,000s of microbes on a daily basis, A few killed or attenuated ones pose no problem. I actually have written an article on this subject with an extensive reference list.

I suggest you read it, you might actually learn something:

Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH (2016 Mar 18). Ignoring Context and a Lack of Common Sense: Antivaccinationists Absurdly Misusing Dr. Paul Offit’s “each infant would have the theoretical capacity to respond to about 10,000 vaccines at any one time” at: http://www.ecbt.org/images/articles/Ignoring_Context_and_a_Lack_of_Common_Sense_-_10,000_Vaccinations_at_One_Time_.pdf

Wow, playing the Nazi card. You antivaccinationists just don’t know where to draw the line. Having been born at the end of World War II and read extensively everything from biographies of Hitler to just about everything on the Holocaust, including papers by Holocaust deniers, people like you, playing the Nazi card, both show your immense ignorance while insulting the suffering of the victims of the Nazis. I have NO problem with your antivaccinationist beliefs as I know lots of people with deficient understanding of science and logic; but i find you more than despicable when you start calling people Nazis. My father’s generation fought those bastards and I grew up knowing a number of Concentration Camp survivors and American soldiers who freed the Camps.

I know Orac doesn’t like it when comments invoke personal attacks; but YOUR ARE DESPICABLE!

Joey: “I suppose if my neighbor eats a peanut and reacts by swelling up and is unable to breathe… That’s anectdotal too?”

Did you miss the yellow jacket that bit him?

Joey, answer my question. Give me the links to the “right places” to get that fantastic data.

@ Todd

You write:

“Todd W.

http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com
June 16, 2016
@Joel A. Harrison

I wonder how they would feel if their unvaccinated child got some serious disease from another unvaccinated child who had recently traveled abroad with his/her parents?

Most likely, they would be happy, thinking that their child now has natural immunity. The better question to ask is, how would they feel if their unvaccinated child were infected with a VPD from some other unvaccinated child and suffered serious, permanent sequelae as a result (e.g., deafness, blindness, encephalopathy with permanent intellectual damage, death, etc.).

Yes, possibly they would be glad their child now had natural immunity, that is, if, for instance with measles, they didn’t have to watch the week’s suffering with high fever, intense itching, and anorexia and if they didn’t mind the kid missing a week’s school and having to miss a week’s work to take care of the child.

And that assumes the kid didn’t end up being one of 50,000 hospitalized per year from measles or worse, as you mentioned, one of the up to 2,000 with a seizure disorder, mental retardation, deafness, or blindness.

And the above just one of the vaccine-preventable diseases. Add them all up, not a pretty picture.

I see our troll has gone for the toxins gambit (#34), mistaking “data” for the plural of “anecdote” (#19), and post hoc ergo propter hoc (#42). Also, he seems to consider Facebook a reliable source of news.

Better trolls, please.

What we should all be demanding then, of course, is that a vaccinated vs unvaccinated study be done, right? Too bad everyone on your side is so afraid of that. I can’t tell if some of you truly believe what you are saying… That we can’t assume anything about a grand mal seizure the same day as a vaccination? Really? And then we have a moron trying to argue getting hit by a bus (because somehow that is similar to a physical reaction to a vaccination). Wow! Thank goodness you guys are becoming more and more irrelevant. 🙂 Please I beg of you… go off and get your 10,000 vaccines (or 100,000 if you please). Report back.

What we should all be demanding then, of course, is that a vaccinated vs unvaccinated study be done, right? Too bad everyone on your side is so afraid of that.

Afraid? Bullshit. The problem with a vaccinated vs. unvaccinated study is very simple and very obvious: it is unethical to deliberately withhold vaccines in order to test a hypothesis that is contradicted by high quality epidemiological evidence.

There are vaccinated vs. unvaccinated comparisons available from communities with an ideological opposition to vaccines. The Followers of Christ for example, who had all the benefits of modern sanitation but eschewed medicine including vaccines, experienced very high infant mortality rates.

There are also cohort studies which can be used to assess specific claims of the antivax crowd. Example: Japan dropped MMR in favour of separate vaccines. No effect whatsoever on any measurable outcome. Example: thimerosal was removed from virtually all vaccines on the schedule. No effect whatsoever on any measurable outcome.

So if you want this study we’re supposed to be afraid of you need to do two things:

1. Come up with a compelling reason for doing it – i.e. some solid data that undermines the complete absence of any correlation between vaccination and ASD diagnosis in any country in the world. There are by now some hundreds of studies in dozens of countries covering tens of millions of children, not one of which shows any reason to do this test. The reckons of antivaxers are not and never will be a good reason to spend a single dollar on a test of any kind.

2. Come up with an ethical protocol. That will be, I venture to suggest, a major challenge for you.

I can’t tell if some of you truly believe what you are saying…

Sure, because it is inconceivable to you that anybody would not buy into the cult of antivaccination. As you should have realised by now, it is possible for highly intelligent and articulate people to read the same facts you read (and indeed the same non-facts from the antivaxers) and not be persuaded.

We engage with people like you because we think that it is important to understand the climate of fear and unwarranted doubt about vaccines. Antivaxers almost to a man and woman accuse anybody who does not drink the antivax Kool-Aid of being a pharma shill. We, by contrast, note a small number of conflicted individuals who are profiting handsomely from their anti-science, pro-disease advocacy, but most of the antivax movement consists of people who are trying to do the best for their children but have been cynically manipulated by the cult of anti-vaccination. A cult which has existed for as long as vaccines have.

The purported dangers change, the purported mechanisms of risk change, but one thing remains constant: it’s always the vaccines. It always was, it always will be. Precious bodily fluids and such.

Please I beg of you… go off and get your 10,000 vaccines (or 100,000 if you please). Report back.

Here is what Dr. Offitt actually said:

Studies on the diversity of antigen receptors indicate that the immune system has the capacity to respond to extremely large numbers of antigens. Current data suggest that the theoretical capacity determined by diversity of antibody variable gene regions would allow for as many as 109 to 1011 different antibody specificities.38 But this prediction is limited by the number of circulating B cells and the likely redundancy of antibodies generated by an individual.

A more practical way to determine the diversity of the immune response would be to estimate the number of vaccines to which a child could respond at one time. If we assume that 1) approximately 10 ng/mL of antibody is likely to be an effective concentration of antibody per epitope (an immunologically distinct region of a protein or polysaccharide),39 2) generation of 10 ng/mL requires approximately 103 B-cells per mL,39 3) a single B-cell clone takes about 1 week to reach the 103 progeny B-cells required to secrete 10 ng/mL of antibody39 (therefore, vaccine-epitope-specific immune responses found about 1 week after immunization can be generated initially from a single B-cell clone per mL), 4) each vaccine contains approximately 100 antigens and 10 epitopes per antigen (ie, 103 epitopes), and 5) approximately 107 B cells are present per mL of circulating blood,39 then each infant would have the theoretical capacity to respond to about 10 000 vaccines at any one time (obtained by dividing 107 B cells per mL by 103 epitopes per vaccine).

At no point did he ever suggest 10,000 vaccines. All he said was that based on the antigen load in vaccines, there is no realistic prospect of overwhelming the immune system of a baby. There is a safety factor of several orders of magnitude. In fact, a single breastfeed contains more antigens than the entire vaccine schedule.

And it is this rampant dishonesty in representing the reality-based view of vaccines that marks the antivaccine movement out as a dangerous predatory cult.

Yes, possibly they would be glad their child now had natural immunity, that is, if, for instance with measles, they didn’t have to watch the week’s suffering with high fever, intense itching, and anorexia and if they didn’t mind the kid missing a week’s school and having to miss a week’s work to take care of the child.

I doubt that dealing with the normal course of the illness, sans serious complications, would make them question their anti-vaccine stance. I mean, hell, there are people who actually advocate measles teas and pox parties. Their child’s suffering is a small price to pay for their own “brave” stance against vaccines.

Dorit [email protected]: More importantly, the real question to ask is: How many babies had seizures or died in the week before vaccination? Cos if it’s about the same number as the week after then it ain’t the vaccines doing it, but something else.

All of which is certain to whoosh straight over our Doctor Joey’s head like a rocketship to Mars.

[email protected]: “What we should all be demanding then, of course, is that a vaccinated vs unvaccinated study be done, right?”

So what you’re demanding is a Tuskegee Experiment For Kids? And yet we’re supposed to be the Evil ones?

Joey, Joey, Joey… come on! Tell us where the “right places” are to get proper information. Why won’t you tell us? What are you trying to hide?

(by the large scale epidemiology studies are “vaccinated vs unvaccinated” studies)

By the way, my son had a grand mal seizure about two weeks after his MMR vaccine. Now, tell us: was it from the vaccine or from dehydration from the severe gastrointestinal illness he had been suffering from for a few days?

I did a quick search in VAERS and came across this report. A 3-month-old girl received DTaP, pneumococcal, and polio vaccines. 18 days later, she died.

Now, our friend Joey would conclude from such a simplistic search that the vaccines killed this little girl. But, if we look into greater detail, we find that she died due to blunt trauma to the head. The car she was in was involved in an accident, and she was ejected from the car. Not all VAERS records have this level of detail available, and so, someone like Joey who doesn’t bother thinking more deeply than their preconceived notions that vaccines are the ultimate evil would incorrectly blame vaccines for this (and other) deaths and adverse outcomes.

By the way: called to make my appointment for my MMR booster today. I’ll let you all know when I get it so we can monitor for severe affects and put that I’ve become Linda Blair in the VAERS database…

I finally made an appointment for mine last month, and I didn’t even get the extremely sore arm that two separate nurses promised me. In fact, I didn’t get any soreness. Maybe a should demand a redo.

Oh, and just as an addendum to my last comment, Joey might be interested in this little bit from VAERS:

Caveats: DISCLAIMER: VAERS staff at CDC and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) follow up on all serious adverse event reports to obtain additional medical, laboratory, and/or autopsy records to help understand the circumstances. However, VAERS public data do not generally change based on the information obtained during the follow-up process. There are limitations to VAERS data. A report to VAERS does not mean that the vaccine caused the adverse event, only that the adverse event occurred sometime after vaccination. Read more about interpreting VAERS data: More information.

@Joey

Studies have already been done, numerous ones, vaccinated vs unvaccinated to demonstrate no positive significant correlation between vaccines and the entire list of injuries, illnesses, and disorders that your crowd claims is due to medicine. You simply ignore those studies because everyone who proves you wrong is part of “the conspiracy.”

Your allegory sucks too, by the way. If someone swelled up after eating peanuts, yes a doctor (I imagine you see a naturopath) would look at peanut allergies. However, if the tests came back negative, the doctor would also look at other potential causes. In your mind, NO! ITS PEANUTS I DONT CARE WHAT THE TEST SAYS IT HAS TO BE PEANUTS!

A final point, sad but worth noting, is that an individuals health is subject to random chance, complete and utter chaos. We can find contributing factors to what cause some disorders, cancers, etc, but there’s a randomness to it that is completely unexplainable. It stinks, and the knowledge that we cannot completely control the situation is what drives many parents to claim vaccine-injury. It can be much harder for a grieving mother and father to realize their child was just…the tragic result of a one in one million chance of something occurring, or the chance of iheriting a severe genetic disorder.

Joey: “Sorry guys… You lose the argument every single time when you fail to address the topic of toxic chemicals being injected into babies… ”

Well I for one am against toxic chemicals sickening our precious children.

“During the course of virus replication, many viral components as well as by-products of viral replication accumulate in the cell. These are often cytotoxic (e.g., Vaccinia virus in HeLa cells). The molecular mechanism of these toxins is not known in most cases. Only gross morphological defects can be observed generally. Some examples are:

1. Cytotoxicity of preformed viral parts. e.g., Sendoi virus, Newcastle disease virus, measles virus and SV5
produce rapid polykaryocytosis (fusion of chromosomes).

2. Herpesvirus components produce syncytia (multi-nucleated protoplasmic mass, seemingly an aggregation
of numerous cells without a regular cell outline).

3. Penton of adenovirus causes host cell rounding and cell detachment from glass.

4. A double-stranded RNA from enterovirus causes rapid death, without the production of infectious virus, of
cells susceptible and unsusceptible to enterovirus infection.

5. The fiber antigen of the adenovirus capsid inhibits RNA, DNA and protein synthesis.

6. Large quantities of some viruses, such as influenza virus and poxviruses, cause rapid toxic effects in some
animals.”

https://www.atsu.edu/faculty/chamberlain/website/lects/mechanis.htm

Please say you oppose allowing such toxic chemicals (also produced by many other infectious agents) into children’s’ bodies, Joey.

What we should all be demanding then, of course, is that a vaccinated vs unvaccinated study be done, right? Too bad everyone on your side is so afraid of that.

What level of similarity between the two populations would convince you that there’s no connection. The sample size follows immediately.

I’ve found that everybody on “your side” tends to run the hell away from this simple question.

I think Joey might actually be mentally ill. He just named a bunch of very disreputable sources like they prove something

@Joey
A, that familiar smell of old bullshit warmed over once again … I just can’t get enough of it.

there is so much information out there about the dangers of vaccinations

Not information. Stories: yes. Lies: galore. But not what I would consider ‘information’. Yes, children sometimes do fall sick or even die shortly after a vaccination. That’s called (and let me say it slowly, because I know you’re unfamiliar with the term) sta-tis-ti-cal pro-ba-bi-li-ty. It has to do with numbers. Scary stuff, eh?
When American children receive, say, 12 vaccinations during their first year (1 per month), and you have some 24,000 infant deaths per year (2,000 per month), then on average, at least 65 of those children die within 24 hours after vaccination, 130 within two days, and so forth. Every month again. Which means that every year, 12×65=780 children die immediately after vaccination — without there being any link between the vaccination and the demise of the child. So no, stories of children dying shortly after vaccination are not proof of the dangers of vaccines whatsoever.

Actually, if you look at infant mortality on a month-by-month basis, you will see that the numbers are at their peak in the perinatal period (so before any vaccination), and very quickly decline in subsequent months. If vaccination would exact a significant death toll (and even a hundred annual vaccine-related deaths in US the would show up clearly with these relatively small numbers), one would expect to see a rise in child mortality as the cumulative number of vaccinations administered rises — or at least one would expect to see less of a decline after the first few months.

And of course these statistics apply not just to mortality, but also to morbidity (children just getting sick or suffering from seizures etcetera). Every year, literally many thousands of American children will have some sort of health issue right after a vaccination — without the vaccination having anything to do with it.

the topic of toxic chemicals being injected into babies…

Oh dear … please, someone must have told you that the vast majority of those “toxic chemicals” are naturally present in the body of even infants, and in much larger quantities than in a vaccine? And that the chemicals not normally present in the body are not toxic by any standards? You appear to be very ill-informed…

Anyway, I’m not under the illusion that you will even take these things seriously — you sound like a religious fundamentalist, who will stick to his erroneous conviction even if the truth bit him in the ass and chewed it right off.

@has (#58) What in the world? Tuskegee experiment? WOW! I’m going to give you a huge LOL on that one! There are many parents who would willingly (and happily) allow their children to be unvaccinated. More and more each day, in fact. So, go away with the Tuskegee experiment bs. For the record genius the experimentation is done by the pro-vax nazis. Let’s not twist this around.

@Zach Stackhouse (#64)

Oh, I see… I didn’t realize that there were tests that were being done by doctors (after a possible vaccine reaction), where the tests would come back as either a vaccine reaction or not. (ie like a peanut allergy test in your post). Please advise the name of all those tests being done so that I can pass them along to all the vaccine injured children’s’ parents. Thanks in advance …

Joey @70: In case you are unfamiliar with the phrase “double blind” it means that neither the study subject nor their doctor knows if they received the treatment or not.
So if a parent signed their child up for this ‘trial’ you are suggesting, they have no control (or knowledge) over if their child were actually to be vaccinated or not.

And here’s the really extra scary part about that: what if an unvaccinated child comes down with, say, measles, but their parents and doctor don’t know if they’ve been vaccinated or not? At the very least that would delay treatment.

Modern medical ethics say clearly that this study can not be done. Period. It is far too dangerous to the unvaccinated children. Because they could become sick, be disabled or die from vaccine-preventable diseases.
It’s just like how you can’t do a study on throwing people out of a plane with or without a functioning parachute.

So, Joey, what is your solution?
Change the standard vaccination schedule (for the US)?
Change what vaccines are on the standard childhood schedule (for the US)?
End childhood vaccinations (in the US)?
End childhood vaccinations (worldwide)?
End all vaccinations for everyone?

JustaTech, you can put an IOU in the parachute pack as in Catch-22, that should make it ok.

I am sure Joey’s mantra is I knows what I sees and I sees what I knows.

So, Joey, what is your solution?
Change the standard vaccination schedule (for the US)?
Change what vaccines are on the standard childhood schedule (for the US)?
End childhood vaccinations (in the US)?
End childhood vaccinations (worldwide)?
End all vaccinations for everyone?

Ask Mom for 5 more minutes on the computer before dinner?

Joey, Joey, Joey… come on! Tell us where the “right places” are to get proper information. Why won’t you tell us? What are you trying to hide?

Notice that “Joey” doesn’t even know the parameters of the study that he is demanding…..

@JustaTech (#72 and #73)

You are probably correct in the sense that many who are concerned about vaccine safety may not be interested in such a study as the dangers of vaccinating would be too high. Instead, maybe just look at all the very healthy unvaccinated chiropractors kids. That pretty much sums it up right there as you will find them to be much healthier than the regular population (vaccinated kids). Easy.

Yes, change the schedule. Yes, drop some (many) vaccines. Yes, change the timing of when they are given and only give one vaccine at a time. That would be a start anyway. Go back to the early 80’s (only with the newer versions of those vaccines – ie not the deadly DTP as an example)… Oh yeah, it would also be nice to not have the nasty monkey virus SV40 in the polio shots (not sure when that was resolved). That would be very helpful. Lol. On second thought, the whole program should probably be destroyed from top to bottom…

And that assumes the kid didn’t end up being one of 50,000 hospitalized per year from measles or worse, as you mentioned, one of the up to 2,000 with a seizure disorder, mental retardation, deafness, or blindness.

Let me guess the outcome of these diagnosis or death on the AV parents: eternal martyrdom or repentance?

Alain

Joey @

Yes, drop some (many) vaccines.

OK, name the preventable diseases you’d like to your children to get.

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