One of the great things about having achieved some notoriety as a blogger is that readers send me links to articles that the believe will be interesting to me. They usually come in waves. For instance, after anything having to do with Stanislaw Burzynski, “right to try,” particularly egregious antivaccine idiocy, and the like hits the news, I can be sure that well-meaning readers will send me or Tweet at me about the same article several times. (So don’t take it personally if I don’t respond; I get hundreds of e-mails a day.) Sometimes they’re wrong and its something that I have no interest in, but that’s just the price to be paid for being such an amazingly popular blogger. I know, I know. I’m basically a microcelebrity, if not a nanocelebrity. But to me, even eleven years on, that’s amazingly popular because I never expected when I started this whole crazy thing that I’d ever get more than a few hundred readers, if that.
In any case, when a reader sends me a link to something entitled Scientific Proof: Vaccines DO Cause Autism, it is, as I told that reader, not unlike waving a cape in front of a bull. Actually, it’s not, at least not most of the time, because so many antivaccine blogs post articles with similar titles. I could probably write about nothing but articles claiming to have the “scientific proof” that vaccines cause autism and still be able to produce at least three posts a week. However, when an article entitled Scientific Proof: Vaccines DO Cause Autism is posted on the Drinking Thinking Moms’ Revolution (TMR) and is as hilariously off base as this one is, well, it really is like waving the proverbial cape in front of the proverbial bull. At the very least, I know I’m in for potential fun and frustration deconstructing one of the Drinking Thinking Mom’s attempts to fancy herself an expert immunologist and neuroscientist. Basically, TMR is a wine loving, vaccine hating, coffee klatch of mommy warriors for whom the terms Dunning-Kruger effect and arrogance of ignorance were coined, and, believe me, the Dunning-Kruger is very strong here.
This time around, it’s Drinking Thinking Mom in whom the Dunning-Kruger is arguably the strongest, the one who calls herself “The Professor” or “Professor TMR” and uses as her avatar a photo of a teacher writing on the blackboard wearing a very short dress that shows off her black stockings and garters. I must confess that I never understood the choices, but, then, every regular at TMR likes to choose a ‘nym like Professor TMR, Dragon Slayer, Sugah, Blaze, Goddess, or Killah. You get the idea. Maybe it’s just because I’m a clueless middle-aged white male, and maybe I shouldn’t care, but it’s still odd to me. Oh, well. I chose as my ‘nym and avatar an all-knowing computer from an obscure late 1970s British science fiction television show. So I guess I can hardly talk.
Be that as it may, we’ve met the Professor before, and she is magnificent at laying down the Dunning-Kruger. Of course, that’s not a good thing, and unfortunately she’s just as magnificent here. First off, she seems very unhappy about a famous Tweet Hillary Clinton made trolling antivaccine activists:
The science is clear: The earth is round, the sky is blue, and #vaccineswork. Let's protect all our kids. #GrandmothersKnowBest
— Hillary Clinton (@HillaryClinton) February 3, 2015
The Professor’s reaction:
This is it: The Changepoint.
Can you feel it? The last 30 years have led inexorably to this moment when, for the first time in history, all the candidates remaining in the race for the presidency of the United States feel the need to clarify their stance on the use of vaccines – repeatedly and conflictingly. How did we get to the point where vaccines have become such a highly charged, controversial issue? After all, if vaccines are truly as safe as “they” say they are, wouldn’t anyone want a “get out of sickness free” card?
The truth? Of course they would. If vaccines were a truly “free” way to avoid illness, there would be no controversy, plain and simple. Everyone would be on board. That’s why vaccines have generally enjoyed the largely unquestioned popularity they have for as long as they have. Everyone wants to believe in magic. The problem is that, as the number of recommended vaccines and vaccine doses has climbed in the last 30 years along with their concomitant serious adverse events, it has become glaringly obvious that such avoidance of illness through the help of a hypodermic needle is anything but “free” for a large and growing segment of the population who are now living with chronic, often debilitating, illness.
I do so love how antivaccinationists conflate two different things, as the Professor is doing here. Vaccines are not “controversial.” At least, they aren’t controversial in the way antivaccinationists think they are. Hillary Clinton was correct about this. Despite many attempts over two decades to find a link involving hundreds of thousands of patients, no link between vaccines and autism has been found. To a high degree of precision and to the best of science’s ability to determine, vaccines do not cause autism, which is exactly the opposite of what the Professor is trying to argue. So where does the controversy come in? Simple. It involves questions of how far society should go to mandate vaccinations for children; i.e., how to balance the public good against individual rights to refuse. Society has clearly struck a balance in which it requires that children be vaccinated in order to be allowed to attend school and day care. It’s a reasonable compromise. Now, the controversy is over whether nonmedical exemptions (a.k.a. religious or personal belief exemptions) should be permitted. That controversy only exists because antivaccine views have led to an increase in nonmedical exemptions in many states, leading to pockets of low vaccine uptake, leading to degradation of herd immunity, and leading to outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases.
I’m not sure if this is an intentional or unintentional strategy in the Professor’s case, but antivaccine activists often try to conflate the political controversy over vaccine mandates with a scientific controversy. They then go on to argue that the reason there is a political controversy is because there is a scientific controversy over the safety and efficacy of vaccines. However, that “scientific controversy” is nothing more than a manufactroversy. Antivaccine “scientists” do their damnedest to generate “science” implicating vaccines in everything from autism to autoimmune diseases to sudden infant death syndrome to just about any chronic disease or condition that you can imagine.
This leads Professor TMR to do what antivaccinationists do so well, play the victim:
You all know in your heart of hearts it’s true. The mocking of CNN’s Elizabeth Cohen, her “journalistic” colleagues, and the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program Special Masters notwithstanding, there can be no other explanation for why the “myth” has persisted. The mainstream media would have you believe that everyone who believes that vaccines cause autism (at least one-third of American parents of children under 18 at last count) is a superstitious, anti-science nutcase. But if you actually dig deeper and investigate this claim, you will find that often the “all vaccines are magic” crowd is actively discouraging the sharing of science and factual information while at the same time disseminating a great deal of – what shall we call it? Misinformation? – justifying themselves with “you can’t handle the truth.” Those of us who think that vaccines come with some very serious risks that mean that everyone should be thinking long and deeply before taking any vaccine, on the other hand, actively share as much scientific and factual information as possible, while at the same time encouraging you to do further independent study on the subject. We want you to understand that large, epidemiological studies are easy to manipulate. (There’s a reason for Disraeili’s saying, “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”) We want you to look at who is funding the science, and ask yourself what questions didn’t they ask or answer? We want you to be aware of what the editors of the most prestigious medical journals and the Cochrane Collaboration (the least biased international repository for medical science) have to say about corporate corruption of science and the failure of peer review.
One can’t help but note that the Cochrane Collaboration houses within its organization at least one high-placed scientist who is profoundly skeptical of the influenza vaccine and has said things about it that border on antivaccine. Yes, I’m referring to Tom Jefferson. Heck, he’s even appeared on the Gary Null Show. I also see a lot of projection here. Professor TMR calls us the “all vaccine is magic” crowd, but that is more true of antivaccine loons like her. The difference is that she thinks all vaccines are black magic that causes autism and all manner of health problems. As for manipulating epidemiological studies, Professor TMR’s claim shows that she’s clearly never been involved in an epidemiological study. They are not nearly as easy to manipulate as she thinks. Protocols have to be approved by scientific review boards (SRBs) and then institutional review boards (IRBs), the purpose of the latter of which is to protect human subjects. Has Professor TMR ever served on an IRB? Clearly not, or she would know that SRBs and IRBs pore over the plans for study design, data collection, and statistical analysis. They look for any issues that might compromise the study. Truly, the ignorance of our “Professor” is breathtaking.
But our good “Professor” is only getting started. Here’s the part where she fancies herself an immunologist. Hilariously, she references a post on TMR by Twilight (here we go with the ‘nyms again) that is notable for throwing around a bunch of immunology terms, cites a bunch of studies relating neuroinflammation and autism, and concludes that just because there’s evidence that neuroinflammation is seen in autism that vaccines must be a cause. Seriously, it’s that simple. Or should I say, that simplistic? It might be fun to deconstruct the issues with that post in more detail, but not here. For purposes of this post, I just find it quite amusing that Professor TMR would cite such a source. Even more hilariously, Professor TMR invokes Vaccine Papers. Regular readers know that whoever is behind that execrable site has on occasion shown up in the comments here. I might just finally have to do a post about that website.
Professor TMR concludes with an analogy that shows just how little she understands science:
After our blog on Autism and the Immune System, Lisa Stephenson of Autism Revolution for Medical Intervention requested that we stop pursuing the link between vaccines and autism and suggested that by doing so we were sacrificing “all our children for the sake of the ones who have vaccine-induced autism.” I heartily disagree and will illustrate it with an analogy. Say that you have read the research linking smoking and lung cancer. You know it implicates smoking in a big way, but the tobacco companies are running successful interference, and you see people all around you who don’t know about the link and are subsequently developing lung cancer. Do you keep quiet about it because there are some people who develop lung cancer, like my own father, who have never smoked a day in their lives and you might be “sacrificing” those people “for the sake of the ones who have smoking-induced lung cancer”? Of course not! You speak up and inform people what their choices and actions may lead to and in the process help benefit the individuals, their families, society at large by enabling them to avoid the physical, social, and economic costs of serious illness. Then, if they still choose to smoke, at least they’re doing it with their eyes open.
Comparing vaccine manufacturers to tobacco companies is a favorite trope of antivaccinationists. Never mind that the real analogy would place antivaccine propagandists in the place of tobacco companies. They are the ones using the same techniques of spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt (a.k.a. FUD) about vaccines in the same way that tobacco companies spread FUD about the science showing that cigarettes cause cancer. Now here’s why Professor TMR’s analogy is so brain dead. Smoking increases the risk of lung cancer by as much as ten-fold, and the epidemiological evidence that it does so is bulletproof. In contrast, there is no solid evidence that vaccines cause autism and mountains of evidence that it doesn’t. The analogy is ridiculous on so many levels.
In the end, Dunning-Kruger triumphs.
771 replies on “A “professor” who isn’t talks science about vaccines that isn’t”
This article is pure comedic Gold.
“…but antivaccine activists often try to conflate the political controversy over vaccine mandates with a scientific controversy.”
Would you care to give any examples?
Practical, referenced examples?
“Protocols have to be approved by scientific review boards (SRBs) and then institutional review boards (IRBs), the purpose of the latter of which is to protect human subjects.”
Oh really?
That’s why people have been screaming about the pro-vaccination industry, and why there’s never ever been any RDBPC on any vaccines.
And the most hilarious part was the end, quoting the Dunning-Kruger affect.
And who “triumphs”?? Ha ha ha.
Clearly the author of this disingenuous drivel, is the dumb (getting overconfident), while the intelligent Mr Burzynski is the one who’s doubtful and pessimistic.
But hey, keep it coming, this pro-vaccination maim and disfigure our children rubbish is just laughable.
Perfect example of the logic of the anti-vax crowd… …they whine about protective measures.
And for your latter assertion, I’ll just leave this here (pdf)…
” The first, a pentavalent human-bovine reassortant, was christened RotaTeq®. In a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial (RDBPCT) involving 68,000 infants, a threedose series of this vaccine was found to be 98% efficacious against ‘severe’ rotavirus disease—that measured by emergency department visits or hospitalizations. It was approved by FDA in 2006.”1
“Rotarix®, featuring a live, attenuated human strain, was approved by FDA in 2008; its two-dose series was tested in a RDBPCT involving 63,225 infants and found to be 85% efficacious against severe rotavirus disease.”
PS, you do realize this article didn’t have anything to do with Mr. Burzynski?
Peter Harris –
I didn’t think we were going to see you again.
You still haven’t responded to the questions that were put to you in this thread:
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2016/06/16/combining-childhood-vaccines-at-one-visit-is-not-safe-not-so/comment-page-3/#comment-445277
You ought to do so, to reassure us that you’re not playing Russian roulette with peoples’ lives.
I think and hope a different “changepoint” is soon coming–one that will finally result in the real physicians and medical groups actively coming unambiguously together against these dangerous ant-vaxxers. Point in case: Yesterday, the AAP (1) finally joined the AMA and AAFP in calling for all states to end non-medical vaccine exemptions, and, (2) they changed AAP policy to agree with physician dismissal of vaccine-refusing families (though probably because a lot of us were doing it out of necessity for our patients and didn’t care what the AAP thought). These actions should notch up the blood pressure of these AVers and hopefully make them act even more like the hooligans they are. Now if state medical boards will start taking action against publicly anti-vaccine doctors, and if the AAP will finally toss out their anti-vaccine doctors (as well as directly call out groups like the NVIC and frauds like Andrew Wakefield and his whole Vaxxed clown show)–then there is a large “changepoint” to drive right through the center of anti-vaccinationism.
@gaist “they whine about protective measures.”
Have you never heard of the the Hippocratic oath??
Do no harm??
But of course, doctors enjoy killing, maiming and generally destroying people’s lives, with corrupted medicine.
As long as we can drive European cars, and have all those capital letters next to our name.
“PS, you do realize this article didn’t have anything to do with Mr. Burzynski?”
Are you sure?
Take one of those Nootropics you’ve got in your pocket, and have a read again.
To subtle for you?
“Rotarix®, featuring a live, attenuated human strain, was approved by FDA in 2008;”
let me be clear, I was referring to the vaccines in question; MMR.
Do you have any RDBPCT on MMR??
Oh and don’t give him more BS from the FDA
Everybody in the world, including some Americans know that the Flunky Drug Administrator, is one of the most corrupt organisations in history of the human race.
Infested with pharmaceutical industry apologists, and rubberstampeders.
@Peter Dugdale
“I didn’t think we were going to see you again.
You still haven’t responded to the questions that were put to you in this thread:”
Well I thought your response, along with the other immature enablers, was so poor that I thought what was the point. I mean, the replies were full of ad hominem, and non sequiturs.
Someone even complained that I used the word customer, and not patient.
Do you know what the derivation of the word patient means?
It’s Latin for to suffer.
So it’s appropriate that doctors call them patients, because that’s what patients do when they visit doctors, they suffer.
@Chris Hickie
Doesn’t forcing somebody to have the vaccination, contravene the American Constitution, and your civil liberties??
To all the ugly misanthropes here.
Just yet another example of “do no harm”
“26,159 vaccine-associated adverse events were reported.”
“The group aged 0-5 years reported the highest rate of vaccine-associated adverse events (82/100,000 doses). The DTwP vaccine exhibited the highest rate of adverse events. Common minor events were: fever (17,538), reactions at injection site (4470) and systemic side effects (2422). Rare events (by WHO definition) reported were: persistent crying (2666), hypotonic-hyporesponsive episodes (3), encephalopathy (2) and febrile seizures (112). Severe events included: anaphylaxis (2), respiratory distress (1), multiple organ failure (1), sudden death (1), vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis (2), toxic shock syndrome (3), and sepsis (1). The 10 deaths and 3 cases of disability were investigated by an expert commission, which concluded that 8 of the 13 severe events were vaccination-related. ”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22334111
According to the link Peter thoughtfully provided, the 8 severe events thought to be vaccine related occurred after over 45 million doses of vaccine were given. That works out to a severe complication rate of 0.0000001768443071.
By contrast, measles infection causes pneumonia in about 5% of children, 0.1% get encephalitis and 0.1-0.2% die.
That’s ugly math.
@Dangerous Bacon
Rubbery maths.
26,159 vaccine-associated adverse events were reported, is
26, 159 to many!
DO NO HARM. . . Drop kick.
Let’s see..
You at #1: “There’s never ever been any RDBPC on any vaccines.
Vaccines in question; MMR? A vaccine not once mentioned in this article, nor in the original article at Thinking Moms, or even by you in your comment…
Couldn’t you have been clear right from the start? Would have saved you backpedalling and shifting goal posts…
Although I must admit that was impressively fast goal post shifting even for you…
Either that or your meaning felt too out of place and fragile, got scared and hid unceremoniously behind those two anys.
Nice Freudian slip, “doc”.
Well, well, Peter Harris. Since we’re all such nasty pharma shills anyway, how can you dirty your lily-white hands being around us? Don’t you have some marks patients to perform a walletectomy on?
Nice article, by the way. I’m glad you’ve learned to link citations. You notice that it was in Cuban children, and that most of the adverse events were fever? 13 severe events out of over 45,000,000 doses of vaccines? Not that any death or disability is good, but the risks of getting hit by lightning are greater than an severe event from a vaccine.
Actually, considering that the MMR started out as individual vaccines of measles, mumps, and rubella, there may not have been RDBPCT on the combination. But then, most doctors in the 1960s had seen all 3 diseases and knew what horrible effects they could have. All the doctors I knew were so happy to prevent those diseases, they gave the vaccines as soon as they were available. And, I’m sure most parents would prefer their kids get *1* shot instead of 3. As a kid, I would have preferred it – I found out recently (from my mother) that I got the individual vaccines when they first came out. My vaccine record only showed the MMR I got as a 16 year old.
My grandfather, a GP, was VERY pro-vaccine, having had patients die from the disease vaccines prevented. Yes, he lost money on giving vaccines instead of having patients get sick – one office visit and vaccine was less money than house calls daily for 1-2 weeks (or more if an illness spread through the whole family) and dealing with the health department to set up quarantines (he got paid for those, too). But then, my grandfather cared for his patients. Their health was more important to him than his pocketbook.
There are thousands of choking deaths each year among children and infants. By Peter Harris’s standards, that means its safer not to feed your children at all.
@Peter Harris: 26,159 vaccine-associated adverse events were reported, is
26, 159 to many!
DO NO HARM. . . Drop kick
Gee….and fever is 100% an adverse effect when you get the illness the vaccines prevented.
Fever, a sore arm, febrile seizures..those are adverse effects. Transient. But still listed. And the largest amount of those adverse affects you have your pants in a twist about.
Which of the illnesses the vaccines prevent have fewer effects than the vaccine?
No one is being forced precious.
@gaist
August 31, 2016
let me be clear, I was referring to the vaccines in question; MMR.
Let’s see..
You at #1: “There’s never ever been any RDBPC on any vaccines.
Vaccines in question; MMR? A vaccine not once mentioned in this article, nor in the original article at Thinking Moms, or even by you in your comment…
Couldn’t you have been clear right from the start? Would have saved you backpedalling and shifting goal posts…
Although I must admit that was impressively fast goal post shifting even for you…
Either that or your meaning felt too out of place and fragile, got scared and hid unceremoniously behind those two anys.
A rather pathetic attempt at avoiding scrutiny.
RDBPCT on MMR???
“As long as we can drive European cars, and have all those capital letters next to our name.”
Nice Freudian slip, “doc”.
I was talking in the 3rd person, on your behalf.
Where did you get your education on English literature?
That was my point. Was me accusing you of shifting goal posts too subtle?
You claimed there has been no RDBPCT on any vaccine. I spent less than 10 seconds googling to prove you wrong.
School. Same place I was taught that “we”, “us” and “our” aren’t 3rd person.
@MI Dawn
“Which of the illnesses the vaccines prevent have fewer effects than the vaccine?””
I have successfully treated all my clients, WITHOUT any adverse events.
Again, do any of you imbecilic avoiders remember your Hippocratic oath????
@Peter Harris #5
Just to point out the fact the Hippocratic oath contains no such sentiment. Most doctors today make the “Declaration of Geneva”, anyhow. I did.
But that isn’t what you said at all. You seem to suffer from memory problems, so I will remind you that you did say this: “..there’s never ever been any RDBPC on any vaccines.
So that wasn’t about MMR; in fact MMR had never been mentioned by Orac, nor even you. You just have brought it up now to deflect from the fact that you have been caught out in a blatant lie (when you claimed categorically there were no RDBPC trials on vaccines and were proved to be wrong).
You seem to be rather sensitive to criticism, complaining that the reason you never answered questions on the other thread was because someone was nasty to you.
I suppose your saying that “doctors enjoy killing, maiming and generally destroying people’s lives” is just a bit of lighht-hearted banter then? No insults or adhominems there then, quite clearly.
You suggest Cuba’s experience of vaccination adverse event monitoring shows evidence of doctors’ desire to kill and maim people….
Here is what your cited study abstract says:
Considering this was the result of administering over 45 million vaccinations, I would think it truly remarkable that the doctors had only managed to kill or maim 8 children (0.000017%) of the vaccinated population.
Clearly they weren’t trying hard enough.
Damn this no preview mode…
Vaccine-adverse event basically means that by the time it was discovered, the parents or doctor couldn’t prove what caused it. So the parents may blame the vaccine. My mom still asks me if I get sick how it happened, as if I can tell when a virus gets inside my body.
Vaccines are safe, and the fact that no evidence is ever presented otherwise that does not involve some kind of conspiracy lets me safely say that.
@gaist
“August 31, 2016
A rather pathetic attempt at avoiding scrutiny
That was my point. Was me accusing you of shifting goal posts too subtle?”
From my experience, after spending some time in the States, and witnessing the violence and gun culture, I found Americans to be cowards at heart.
Ok then, I’ll wait until this propaganda website specifically writes an article about MMR, and then i’ll put my question to you.
But my God, it must be too hard to answer that now huh.
@Zach
Quite clearly, you cannot read Zach. . .or have no prefrontal cortex. . . or both.
I’ll answer your question about MMR when you admit you made an unfounded claim and we corrected you.
I’m also not American. Nor a doctor. Nor do I drive an European car or put any capital letters next to my name.
@dingo199
“Just to point out the fact the Hippocratic oath contains no such sentiment. Most doctors today make the “Declaration of Geneva”, anyhow. I did.”
Sorry, continuing maiming and killing then.
“Considering this was the result of administering over 45 million vaccinations”
Thats an appalling attempt at conflating.
@gaist
“Nor a doctor. Nor do I drive an European car or put any capital letters next to my name.”
Then what are you doing here??
#turdinaswimmingpool
Lucky for you being scammed isn’t considered an adverse event.
@Science Mom
Its spelt mum, not mom
And your science background is??
Here here? Pointing out your errors, it seems. Here here, watching my irony meter slowly melting.
“I have successfully treated all my clients, WITHOUT any adverse events.”
Only God is perfect, Mr. Harris.
@Gray Falcon
“Only God is perfect, Mr. Harris.”
Jesus was a Naturopath, did you know that??
Ok ladies, sorry cowards, it’s bedtime down here in the greatest country in the world.
You girls/guys just prove the old maxim; ignorance really is bliss.
Depends upon where one is. Don’t get out much do you?
Biomedical with real degrees and lots of capital letters after my name.
Mr. Harris, where in the Bible did Jesus use narutopathy? He had miracles attributed to him, that’s not medicine of any sort. Now tell me, what gives you the right to claim “I have successfully treated all my clients, WITHOUT any adverse events.” Surely as a mortal, there had to be someone your medicine failed for.
In the last few days we’ve had quackturopaths referring to having “clients” and “customers”, which is revealing of the in-it-for-the-money mindset (although calling them “marks” and “victims” would be more accurate).
There is something ironic about the “Professor” making this comment in response to remarks by Hillary Clinton, who is probably more acquainted than anybody else in the world with the concept of manufactured controversy–she has been the target of so many herself (partial listing: Vince Foster, Whitewater, Benghazi, e-mails), and the worst her enemies have come up with is that her husband had consensual sex with an intern and subsequently lied about it. Hillary knows how to deal with ridiculous-looking enemies. The “Professor” is just one more.
GF@32: Perhaps Mr. Harris has walked on water at some point in his life. It’s not that hard to do; I’ve done it myself. Step one: wait for the pond to freeze over.
Chris @ #4
Further, I’d be totally fine with a Wakefield arrest & prosecution for profiting from his manufactroversy that threatens our health and safety against infectious disease.
That’s a bit like saying: “If the defendant hadn’t committed murder, then why is he being tried for it?”
There have never been any placebo controlled double blind clinical trials for vaccines?
What do you think stage I, II and III do? E.g. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa052664
The Dachelbot certainly began raving promptly:
Sorry. I see @gaist already referred to it.
Jesus was a Naturopath, did you know that??
No, no, Jesus was a Capricorn, and he ate organic foods.
“Where in the Bible did Jesus use narutopathy?”
In the gospels of ‘Nintendo’, ‘Manga’, and ‘Anime’, which were excised from The Bible in the 5th Century, along with other New Testament Apocrypha. This censorship of the True Word was, of course, skullduggery by the same Illuminati conspiracy controlling the CDC today. Like the Gnostic Gospels, the Naruto gospels “blend teachings attributed to Christ with teachings found in Eastern traditions” – in this case, revealing that Jesus was, in fact, a ninja (which explains the walking on water thing). The idea, then as now, was to keep the Secret of mystical Truth out of the hands of the people, allowing the overlords of ‘science’ to be the sole gatekeepers of what counts as ‘knowledge’, which is thus filtered to serve the interests of ‘yetzer hara’ (‘Final Boss’).
Do your research, Falscon!
“It sets the stage for a national law that eliminates any parental rights when it comes to vaccinations”
Needs a rewrite:
“It sets the stage for a national law that places childrens’ rights over parental privilege when parental action is harmful to their children.”
I like the Vaccine Papers website. The author doesn’t shilly shally or try to obfuscate. They make their reasoning clear and concise.
This means all the numerous errors in said reasoning are easy to spot.
Peter, you would consider a fever, reaction at injection site or crying to be more harm than rotavirus?
Peter Harris:
I take it you did not actually read the article, as it is responding directly to a specific example of that?
But to allow greater harm by inaction is fine by you, eh?
My BA in English literature says that’s first person. What you mean is that you were being sarcastic. We actually did know that, but a common response to badly-executed sarcasm is to intentionally take it as written.
While we are on the topic of grammar, shall we look at this next gem?
I normally abhor a grammar flame; it’s the whoopie cushion of debating. But even forgiving that you are objecting to a matter of dialect, it is quite impressive to see two grammatical errors in one grammar flame, especially one of just five words.
FTFY. Is he still inconsistently trotting out the royal ‘we’?
Given Zoey O’Toole’s actual achievements, “The Professor” – versus, say, “The Former IT Flunky” – is quite the choice.
Mr. Harris, where in the Bible did Jesus use narutopathy?
We are all indebted to John Sladek for the observation that His last words were “Ailing, ailing, lemme see botany”.
No, no, Jesus was a Capricorn, and he ate organic foods.
JP misheard. Jesus was a Leprechaun.
You really only get one out of this. Partridge opines as follows:
“Purists prefer spelled for the preterite, spelt for the past participle; usage accepts either form in the preterite but prefers the shorter form in the participle.”
I have dealt with Petey before. He is a naturopath “Doctor”. He lives in this fantasy world. Science is meaningless and irrelevant. Hey Petey, do you not get that of the 26,000 adverse events 99.999999% were minor short term events like fever or soreness. Using the do no harm line is a joke. Surgery causes pain and the long term side effect of a scar. So should surgery be abolished because docs should not do any harm. It is a thoroughly stupid and illogical argument that is rooted in a Dunning Kruger dementia that you aren’t able to escape. You spend all this time going after the science that proves vaccines are safe but ignore the fact that you can’t present any real science they aren’t and the fact that you profit as long as people think your hocus pocus quackery works.
Once the exemptions are gone, full vaccine compliance can be made a prerequisite for welfare, Social Security, veterans’ benefits, unemployment — just about anything we sign up for.
Someone needs to tell the Dachelbot that full vaccine compliance is required for veteran’s benefits, given that the military is the only US demographic where vaccines are mandatory.
“Jesus was a Naturopath, did you know that??”
Good gawd, is this guy for real? He sounds completely unhinged and thoroughly ignorant. I’m gobsmacked.
Eric Lund: Considering their relative positions, the jury’s still out on whether it was consensual or not.
I checked. Vaccines are not mandatory for US military vets. That was debunked last year.
See metabunk.org Nov 2015
Just what are you suggesting, PgP #54?
http://www.infowarsstore.com/bill-clinton-rape-shirt.html
Mr Harris may assert that there were no adverse events among his customers.
.
We, in turn, can be confident that there were no cures among his patients.
“InfoWars” – well, I guess that explains a lot.
Given Mr. Harris’ statement @17, perhaps he is a pathologist? (Or coroner, or medical examiner, or undertaker.)
That’s the only way I can see to avoid having adverse events.
Gilbert @55: Didn’t you hear that the InfoWars website got hacked and all the customer data is for sale on the dark web?
(It might only be the people who subscribe to the website and not the people who purchase items through the website, but are you prepared to take that risk?)
Well damn, JustaTech. I guess they know that I bought a vile of potassium iodine back in 2011 before the DEA cracked down on it.
https://www.rawstory.com/2016/08/alex-jones-infowars-site-hacked-50000-plus-users-info-now-available-in-digital-underground/
So, I take it you won’t be buying the shirt??
Gilbert: I wasn’t talking to you, dimbulb. Lewinsky’s never called it rape, but he was her boss, so the whole relationship is very questionable. Also, potassium salts aren’t drugs, ergo they don’t fall under the DEA’s authority. (Really, how dumb do you have to be to buy *anything* off their site? I’m really not surprised that computer security is another thing the admins fail at.)
http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/fed_regs/rules/2007/fr0702.htm
He’s a naturoquack.
San Antonio Texas Prosecutor: Vaccines Cause Autism
[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi9PNKW7w3Q&w=560&h=315%5D
Okay, Peter Harris, here’s my take on your words.
““Protocols have to be approved by scientific review boards (SRBs) and then institutional review boards (IRBs), the purpose of the latter of which is to protect human subjects.”
Oh really?
That’s why people have been screaming about the pro-vaccination industry, and why there’s never ever been any RDBPC on any vaccines.”
I’ve sat in on IRB meetings and your claim is 180 degrees from your imputation. When I worked on drug studies, I carried around a little book that contained relevant portions of the Nuremberg Codes, among other important documents relating to human experimentation. Why don’t you read it ????
“…pro-vaccination maim and disfigure our children rubbish…”
A well-chosen turn of phrase, that is if you are referring to the claims of antivaxers.
“Have you never heard of the the (sic) Hippocratic oath??
Do no harm??”
I’ve heard of it, and I follow it, except for the Apollo part. I’ve ever given anyone a poison (Shall we stipulate the obvious, trite, and mindless rejoinder??). I’ve never attempted to remove kidney stones but let urologists do it. Most important, I’ve never had sex with any of my patient’s slaves.
“But of course, doctors enjoy killing, maiming and generally destroying people’s lives, with corrupted medicine.”
As we said when we were kids, “Oh yeah, name two.”
” As long as we can drive European cars, and have all those capital letters next to our name.”
You must have a different kind of doctor in Australia. Like you, maybe. Otherwise your comment is specious, fallacious, and defamatory,vnot to mention ridiculously simpleminded.
“Doesn’t forcing somebody to have the vaccination, contravene the American Constitution, and your civil liberties??”
Outside of the military, first responders, and certain health professionals, no one is required to receive any vaccine. In a state of emergency there is what our laws call “compelling public interest”, which would allow the authorities to mandate vaccinations. This to my recall has never been invoked in the US, not even during the smallpox outbreak in New York City in the 1940s
“26,159 vaccine-associated adverse events were reported, is 26, 159 to many!
DO NO HARM…”
So you insist that every medication, treatment, and procedure be 100% safe?? Maybe they can achieve this level of perfection on Planet Harris, but here on Earth very little can be guaranteed to an absolute certainty.
“From my experience, after spending some time in the States, and witnessing the violence and gun culture, I found Americans to be cowards at heart.”
Trying to win us over with your innate charm, are you? If you’ve given up on trying to bring us around to your point of view, you must be taking charm lessons from Donald Trump.
“Jesus was a Naturopath, did you know that??”
Jesus, if he even ever existed, was reputed to be a deity. Deities work by different rules than mere humans. I sincerely doubt that any sort of god would lower itself by practicing naturopathy, unless we are discussing a deceitful god, like Loki or Laverna.
Now here comes the kicker:
“I have successfully treated all my clients, WITHOUT any adverse events.”
By which I deduce that you are either a liar or a pathologist.
Dimbulb: That doesn’t make it illegal, just harder-to -get. Same thing as with sudafed; you have to show ID, and you can’t buy more than a set amount at any one time. Also, since when do you care about rape, you horrible person? Why don’t you shoo off to reddit with the rest of the 12-year-olds going on 40?
“potassium salts aren’t drugs”
Sorry, PGP, but potassium iodide is a drug. Marketed as SSKI, it has a long history of use as an expectorant. It is also used to protect the thyroid by iodine saturation in nuclear events.
I have used it as patient and prescriber, and at the time of the Chernobyl accident I obtained my hospital’s last bottle and dosed my wife and myself with it.
“”That doesn’t make it illegal, just harder-to -get.
I’ll say. four dollars for a pint (sourced locally) went to ten dollars for an ounce around here.
Really? Wow. I guess you know what a ‘smurf’ is then.
@ Narad @ Calli Arcale
Its spelt mum, not mom
I agree with Narad, only one error, but not for the same reason. I’d say “mum” is an acceptable alternative spelling for “mom”.
I’d never use “spelled” as the simple past tense of “spell” unless we were discussing the Wizard of Oz. I think “spelled” as the past tense of “spell” is one of those abominable Americanisms. I know it certainly grates on the ear.
Narad:
I’m actually fine with “spelt”. As with “mum”, usage varies regionally. It was the homophone error (“its” versus “it’s”) and the lack of closing punctuation that I noticed — those are wrong everywhere.
Bob @ 64 — yeah, that prosecutor is being called a “game changer” to vaccination policy. Texas essentially has this guy as a medical poster boy blowing the dogwhistle on mainstream media, notably the NBC affiliate.
I just had to post this here for those who adore “citizen scientist” ciaparker. This is what she just said:
http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/hpv-vaccine-effectiveness-cervical-cancer-rate-halved/
Absolutely and funnily enough oft used in my household. But Peter Harris said that was the only way to spell it.
Not really. In addition to medical exemptions (of course), the military also allows for religious exemptions. They are a bit harder to get than in the civilian world.
From this rather long pdf –
https://www.vaccines.mil/documents/1682_Joint_Instruction_Immunization_2013.pdf
After reading this, I would say that they’re a lot harder to get than in the civilian world.
How interesting that the Air Force does not grant permanent waivers.
ORD: Oh, I didn’t know that. I just figured Gilly was lying again.
Dimness: Nah, I just know because there was a *huge* kerfluffle when the new regulations went into effect. My state takes cold medicines very seriously.
Hi everybody, I’m afraid that I’m responsible for Peter Harris’s Cuba papers. He challenged me on vaccine adverse effects and I cited that paper because Cuba is famous for it’s resistance to USA big business and its’ mix of home grown and commercial vaccines, they would tell the TRUTH! He claimed he knew Epistemology, I just couldn’t conceive that he would view an 8 in 45,000,000 chance as deliberate malice. Hopefully he’s busy digging up evidence that Morbidity of VPD declined BEFORE vaccine introduction, then again he thinks I’m nobility lol, please check eeeaten’s comments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxH7MoHjafM&google_comment_id=z133htmbuur2cbhrf04cdtrzrxnrufnpojc
Is that because mercury is solid at normal body temperature and liquid at a few degrees hotter? Or liquid at 37°C and a gas when a bit warmer? Or because it is just generally temperature sensitive as attested to by its use in thermometers? Or because sweating is such an important mode of detoxing and the mercury, knowing it is bad, is making its way to sweat glands to be voluntarily evicted, but gets sidetracked? Mechanism. I want to know the mechanism. What about mercury from eating tuna fish (as opposed to tuna mammal)?
CiaP is certainly related to a lot of people with serious problems.
@Calli:
Ah I didnt even notice that but I’m genuinely unsure about the status of punctuation rules as properly within the realm of grammar rather than including a lot of pause markers denoting internal speech, if you get my drift
@jrkrideau:
It is an Americanism (I’m guessing a little-known victory for prescriptivism but not going to check), but bear in mind that English itself has more than one “past tense,” so objecting to ‘spelled’ per se may still backfire in situations that are not dominated by American usage.
Clearly when it’s cold all the mercury in your body drops too your feet, and when it’s warm it rises towards your head. This is also the case with low and high air pressure, respectively.
“Spelt” is a form of wheat, even when it was spelt correctly.
Oh, dear, I was able to identify the author just from M’OB’s excerpt.
Have you seen Sixteen Candles? “Automobile”?
I just knew you could see her “uniqueness” a mile away. I can only hope she’s as delusional about the medical advice she dispenses to people.
Cia (with the same basic script, of course) actually manages to draw flak for attempting to play the role of Voice of Reason over at AoA. I don’t know that she even has any option to withdraw from particular Protectorates of the Crankosphere without wholesale personal capitulation, which isn’t going to be anytime soon, if it ever happens at all.
Who the hell cares if SSKI is hard to find? Capsules of KI are abundant and cheap, and reagent grade KI is available from Amazon. This is one of the silliest thing to bitch about here.
I just came here to show my support for vaccinepapers.org. The arguments there are intelligently presented and backed-up by published studies. I challenge anyone here to find fault with that site.
Be careful what you wish for…
Hey Peter Harris,If you’re treating people who haven’t had any adverse effects, effects like fever, then what exactly are you treating? Perfectly healthy people who don’t need treatment?
Boom goes the plutonium.
It is just hilarious.
I’ve never met such a bunch of dribblers and bedwetters, and general imbeciles, that I have encountered on this forum.
Jesus was naturopath, was not meant to be taken literally.
As you can see, I’m comparing the safety and efficacy of natural holistic medicine, with conventional pharmaceutical medicine, and none of the fools and idiots here could address that question directly, in a mature way.
Just providing a lot of flimflam around the edges, peppered with liberal amounts of non sequiturs and ad hominem.
I wonder if the “Doctor” who runs this site, endorses all the drivel and specious BS.
You can only assume that it does.
I was going to respond to most, but it would be like banging my head against the wall, because it would be arguing with the inane and gormless.
To prove my point just look at the last comment;
“Boom goes the plutonium.”
Oh yes, that just nails the whole argument between natural medicine and conventional medicine.
@Peter Harris #87:
The efficacy of natrual holistic medicine has been checked. It has little to no efficacy.
Pot kettle, black.
I also spotted something from your comment #6.
Reported. Not confirmed as having been caused by vaccination. REPORTED.
You claimed that “there’s never ever been any RDBPC on any vaccines” and then shifted the goalposts when gaist proved you wrong. At #22 you threw personal insults at zach.
The only one flim-flamming here is you.
In the interests of international relations, that Peter Harris cunt is in no way representative of the views of the Commonwealth of Australia.
Also, he criticises Doctors for earning money from their treatments – does he do all his work pro bono?
[…] brief notice of some particularly dumb bit of antivaccine nonsense. Just as I said in yesterday’s post, such things are like waving a cape in front of the proverbial bull. Even worse, it’s a lawyer. […]
Aussie Paramedic = Wannabe Doctor..
“does he do all his work pro bono?”
Sometimes, yes.
Project much naturoquack?
Ha. Haha. Hahahahahaha.
Already done.
Peter Harris = Wannabe Doctor
Not much you type is, Nor can be.
But I suppose the archetypal shackle dragger bogan had to exist somewhere.
Peter Harris, as a mortal human, why do you believe you can make the claim “I have successfully treated all my clients, WITHOUT any adverse events.”? All that suggests is that you are either a liar or keep very poor records.
As a side note, does anyone know what happened to Krebiozen? His last comment here was just over six months ago. He also mentioned having hypotension. Is he ok? Or is this lilady round 2?
“Aussie Paramedic = Wannabe Doctor..”
Three-card monte dealer = wannabe naturopath.
“I think “spelled” as the past tense of “spell” is one of those abominable Americanisms.”
I think spelt is the grain used to make the breakfast cereal I ate this morning.
I sometimes wonder why the ( cough!) PROFESSOR gets herself so riled up about vaccines/ autism as, IIRC, her own children haven’t ASDs ( they have other problems) and weren’t vaccinated because she had the fears about the evilz very early on **
OBVIOULSY this makes her case curiouser and curiouser because she seems to quite be the showrunner at TMR. Editor, essayist ( Yiiiii!) and upfront face of the organisation
especially after MacNeil bailed. She spends a lot of time on this project.
** Now, I’m not exactly sure where I picked up these notions about Zoey O’Toole ( the Prof) but I have been reading TMR since its inception and I listened to all of their joint appearance panels at the past two years Autism Ones I recall *hearing* ( not reading) her say this.
@ ORD:
‘spelled’ looks and sounds awful.
Alright,
I looked at TMR’s ‘About TMR/ etting Personal” section and it says that her kids have other conditions- not ASDs- because she learned what to avoid ( without explicitly saaaaying it) – i.e. vaccines.
GETTING Personal
“All that suggests is that you are either a liar or keep very poor records.”
Why do you assume these are mutually exclusive possibilities?
In other news, I found a terrific online stem cell therapy training program, and plan to make enough money by the end of 2016 to afford my very own avocado ranch.
“Jesus was naturopath, was not meant to be taken literally.”
No sh*t. Really?
How exactly did you mean it to be taken? Satire? Irony? Hyperbole? Sarcasm? An appeal to religious sentiment?
What was the point you were trying to make?
And what was the purpose of capitalizing “Naturopath”? In fact, what is the purpose of naturopathy at all, aside from making crazy money selling placebos?
So none of you obligate pro-vax propaganda shills think that they can debunk vaccinepapers.org?
Didn’t think so.
The science is clear. Vaccines cause neurological problems through a multitude of overlapping mechanisms.
So none of you obligate pro-vax propaganda shills think that they can debunk vaccinepapers.org?
On the rare occasions that the numpty behind vaccinepapers.org can actually be persuaded to offer a cite, here and elsewhere, he gets his fanny handed to him on a platter.
This is why he not longer offers cites here.
Vaccines cause neurological problems through a multitude of overlapping mechanisms.
I notice that you don’t, either.
#111
Would you, by any chance, be the same Robert Hayes who used to hang around the University of Utah hurling offensive gibberish at the biology department in support of your EVOLUTION IS A LIE BECAUSE G-D TOLD ME!!!!! crusade?
If so, your letter to the Comical on the subject of “a stupid biology student thought he had invented a perpetual motion machine, so I had to explain how the Second Law of Thermodynamics forbids perpetual motion as well as evolution from ever happening” was a classic of the genre.
If not, odd how Robert Hayes is such a memorably rare name yet so many of you turn out to be raving cuckooberries.
If I didn’t have more pressing concerns, I could have some DMCA takedowns sent its way, but after seeing Dan “Vapor Genie” Steinberg declare that a sample sample size of ~300 would be enough for the magikall “vaxed vs. unvaxed study,” I kind of lost interest.
Jesus turned water into wine. I’d say that makes him a homeopath.
300? In each arm? Really?
““does he do all his work pro bono?”
Sometimes, yes.”
I’m sure. How much does it cost to hand out water?
@Robert Hayes
Hello Robert.
It’s good to know that I’m not the only one here, shinning light into this cave is bigotry and stupidity.
Thanks for the link to the anti-vaccine website, I’ve never heard of it before.
I think you’re asking too much of the dribblers and knuckle grinders here.
Isn’t it fascinating that, none of the wankers here, can actually criticise your assertions about the truth of how dangerous vaccines are, but instead, attack you personally, instead of your argument.
Of course they are defeated by the points raised in that website.
They have got nothing left, accept immature nonsense and avoidance directed at you for posting that website.
I find it amusing that the chief propagandist of this website is a surgeon.
He states; “…of scurrilous lies (e.g., linking Orac and his cancer center to Dr. Farid Fata and his criminal activity), misinformation, and selective presentation of information.”
And yet, he allows all these rat bags and halfwits to say anything about everyone here on the comments page.
As Americans like to say; “You can’t make this shit up!”
“I’m sure. How much does it cost to hand out water?”
Hey, Old Rockin’ dropkick, I think they’ve put too much fluoride in the water at the caravan park.
Have you got any other thing to say about natural medicine, apart from an inane one-liner???
“he allows all these rat bags and halfwits to say anything about everyone”
Mirror, mirror.
Narad: “Dan “Vapor Genie” Steinberg ”
Is that the actual name behind VaccinePapers? So the dude who cherry picks papers on how bad vaccines are because of aluminum, something, something sells a pipe to facilitate sucking hot toxins directly into the lungs? Whoa!
Why am I not surprised at the hypocrisy?
Peter Harris, your level of invective and insult is about what I’d expect from the nation that gave us Paul Hogan, Foster’s Lager, and “Waltzing Matilda.”
In fact, I have a lot to say about “natural medicine” but most of resolves down to the placebo effect; bizarre ideas of how the human body works; outdated and irrational beliefs; fraud; and self-deception. The rest is commentary. Go now and study.
Here in the US we have motor vehicles, railroads, and aircraft. We no longer need to travel in camel caravans.
Go French kiss a Tasmanian Devil.
@Science Mom:
RLY. I think it was at SBM; I don’t think Ddanimal fully understood what “98%” meant when wanking around with sample-size calculators. This was his proffered go/no-go causation threshold.
Isn’t a caravan some sort of motor vehicle you drive on the caraway?
I’m afraid that copying seems to work with this phone browser, but not pasting.
@Chris: Yes. I’ve mostly let him be, but he can thank his idiot groupies for my losing my patience in a more direct manner. Nonetheless, “vaping,” e.g., grass is has to be more lung-friendly than actually smoking.
#118
New Zealand may not be the capitol of Australia, but you certainly act the part:
https://youtu.be/JLCXNm7IZWc
@Old Rockin’ Dave
“In fact, I have a lot to say about “natural medicine” but most of resolves down to the placebo effect”
You mean “revolves”?
Ok, i look forward to you posting the many RDBPC into Natural Med.
“the wankers here…attack you personally, instead of your argument….
(Orac) allows all these rat bags and halfwits to say anything about everyone here on the comments page.”
There must be a homeopathic preparation you can take to enhance self-awareness and sense of irony. Here are some dedicated American healers who no doubt would be excited to help you access your inner state.
http://www.allthingshealing.com/Homeopathy/10-Ways-Homeopathic-Treatment-Can-Benefit-You/12664#.V8j1oVrO1Sq
Huh? I’m going to guess that “vapor genie” has something to do with this but I’m missing a step somewhere.
I remember the conversation but I guess I lost interest before you nailed the jello down to an actual number. Would love to see him sell that to his groupies.
@Dangerous Bacon
It got me thinking about your name. . . and then i thought, of course.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-27/processed-meats-cause-cancer-says-un-agency/6886882
Just as I had thought. No cogent arguments, just name-calling and mockery.
The implication is obvious. Some anti-vaccine arguments, when laid out legibly with scientific citations, simply cannot be intelligently refuted.
Because they (the arguments) are so stupid?
Hey Robert, they are so eloquently proving you correct.
“OP
September 2, 2016
Because they (the arguments) are so stupid?”
@Peter Harris
How’s this:
Where are these arguments?
“Where are these arguments?”
Well show some courage, and ask him.
But I doubt that will happen.
It appears you, and others here are running on their limbic system, and cannot mount a rational, detailed and mature rebuttal to the anti-vaccine argument.
With Peter Harris’ permission:
@Robert Hayes
Where are these arguments?
“Dribblers and knuckle grinders”
You really know when someone’s arguments are utterly without merit when they resort to such inane taunts. Bravo, Peter, I must say, you are a shining example of anti-vaxers everywhere. (Not to anti-vaxers, mind you, just of them.)
See.
As i was saying.
You are just behaving like a dick.
What does it say about you when you can’t event mount a rational anti-vaccine argument? Let alone detailed or mature…
@Peter Harris
Chastising perceived insults with insults. Genius!
What about Usain Bolt using homeopathic medicine and recovering remarkably, only to win more olympic golds?
Thanks.
@Rick Nelson #141: I’d like to see supporting evidence for your claim that Bolt used homeopathic medicine.
Doesn’t he also wear clothes? They must have contributed too, right?
@Dan Welch
@OP, and other headwobblers here.
Really?
You have to be joking.
Now you are complaining because you are thin skinned, and you cannot mount an argument to defend your poison peddling philosophy??
Someone called me a c#@t.
No one admonished the poster for that insult.
Insulting vax kiddy killers = Bad.
Insulting naturopaths = Good.
So you are not only monosyllabic lock-jawed dribblers, but you can add hypocrite to your resume.
Harris, stump up the evidence that vaccines kill. Stump up the evidence that vaccines are bigger killers than the diseases they prevent.
If you can, that is.
Mr. Harris, you still haven’t justified this statement: “I have successfully treated all my clients, WITHOUT any adverse events.”
The reason I keep bringing that statement of Harris’ up is because it is approximately 1800 millipants in terms of implausibility, with 1000 millipants = “I swear to God, officer, these aren’t my pants!”
@Julian Frost.
My God, the evidence is everywhere.
It’s hiding in plain sight, but everyone here has the blinkers on.
10 years ago it was a trickle of information, now its becoming a flood.
1. The medical industry has a history of covering up serious malpractice.
Just take the thalidomide scandal as one example.
2. The FDA in the United States is one of the most corrupt, and dysfunctional government departments in the history of bureaucracy.
It’s run by, and for, the medical/pharmaceutical industrial complex.
And 3. With the correct environment, both external and internal, our own immune systems can deal with far more than me medical industry would like to acknowledge, because simply there is no money or copyrights in boosting natural human immunity.
On bald assertion is Peter Harris avowed,
studied ignorance makes him proud,
..Invective is his trade,
..of insignificance is he afraid
Caterwauling devoid of truth, just loud.
@Gray Falcon
“September 2, 2016
Mr. Harris, you still haven’t justified this statement: “I have successfully treated all my clients, WITHOUT any adverse events.”
What would you like me to do??
Upload a PDF, of all my clients files, of the last 16 years??
Are you completely stupid?
You’ll just have to take my word for it.
If you knew naturopathy, it’s not that surprising, and I’m claiming no revelations.
And your medical background is????
@Peter Harris
Evidence not assertion. You know links and such from reputable sources.
@Peter Harris: Not-a-Doctors get no respect here because they don’t deserve any, as far as their practices go. As human beings, they should, provided they show they deserve respect. So far, you’ve failed there, too. You have to GIVE respect to GET respect.
I would condemn the person who called you a name, except that you came in here calling all of us names, and we honestly get tired of the jerks who do that.
You have given NO proof that you “cure” anyone, except your word. Where are your Double-blinded tests showing your treatments cure everyone? Every study that’s been done so far, even by providers who are believers, haven’t shown alt med works.
So, I am UTD with all my vaccines (barring flu, which I will get in a few months as I am in the US and it’s not being offered just yet in my area). I have always had fluoridated water. I actually have very few fillings, but the one or two I do have probably are amalgam, as I’m of that age.
Go ahead and call me all the names you want. That just shows you have nothing else to work with.
@rs.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rat%20shit
And whats your medical background???
Mr. Harris, I don’t need any medical background to know that nobody is perfect, and anyone who claims otherwise is lying through their teeth.
@MI Dawn
“I would condemn the person who called you a name, except that you came in here calling all of us names, and we honestly get tired of the jerks who do that.”
Nonsense.
The 1st time I posted a comment here on another topic, I got a truckload of invective.
So don’t come complaining to me, because you’re experiencing a little blow-back.
Thin-skinned sulking hypocrites all of you.
Yes, I know about your first comment on August 28, 2016 on another post:
Wow.
Never before I have come across such a shill fest as this website, which is clearly full of industry flunkies, apparatchiks and enablers.
This is just one great wank for all the medical/pharmaceutical industrial complex hacks.
I read a Dr bollocks (Really, thats his name?. . . That’s funny, but appropriate) disparage Naturopathy, when he and his fellow doctors, are the ones that supply me with customers.
As a practising Naturopath, most of my customers come to me for 2 reasons.
1st, the conventional doctor has not cured them of their disease, and only exacerbated the problems by treating the symptoms.
And 2nd, I have to repair the body, because their doctors have given them far too many pharmaceutical drugs, which have created chronic and debilitating side-effects.
And they call me a quack??
At least I don’t intentionally harm people, by giving them dangerous, and deadly remedies.
So much for the Hippocratic oath in the medical profession.
As I said, you started out with calling us names. Perhaps not as rude, but you certainly didn’t come here with the idea of starting a civil discussion.
@MI Dawn
“As I said, you started out with calling us names. Perhaps not as rude, but you certainly didn’t come here with the idea of starting a civil discussion.”
More disingenuous and short-term nonsense.
I have been reading a lot more of the regulars here, and how they abuse people with alternative views, long before I decided to make my own post.
I know the history of the head wobbles here, and how they attack people with monosyllabic, limbic system driven insults.
So don’t give me the BS, that you are all shrinking violets now, when you have a history of abusing people.
Again I ask the question, what are all your medical histories/backgrounds???
You can leave your message if you will, because it’s bedtime.
I’m not expecting to get any surprises in the morning, with any clearheaded honesty.
My background? Not that it’s any of your business but: US educated Registered Nurse with a Master’s degree in Science, Certified Nurse-Midwife (no longer practicing). I grew up in a medical family. My grandfather was a GP who’d seen enough infectious diseases that he made sure that as children we got any new vaccines that became available, so we didn’t have to suffer from the disease and possibly risk the adverse effects.
And, you poor thing, I’m so sorry you can’t take the rough and tumble of this blog. If you’ve been reading “a lot more of the regulars” then you’ll know that we get tired of answering the same stuff OVER and OVER and OVER again because of the woosters. So yes, our tempers get a bit short.
Now, be a good soul when you wake up; give us some citations to your wonderful treatments so you can prove to us what you are claiming is true.
Dialect lesson for today:
By “caravan”, Peter Harris means what we call a “recreational vehicle”, although outside the Americas the term is used more broadly than RV is used here. They also apply it to camper trailers and single-wide mobile homes. So by referring to the caravan park, he thinks he is cleverly insulting you by implying you live in such a place. This actually reveals far more about his own character than he thinks, of course.
Peter Harris @ 148:
That’s an interesting pairing, given that it was the FDA that first blew the whistle on thalidomide, barring it from sale in America. This would rather contradict your assertion in #2, as corresponding organizations in other nations had cheerfully authorized thalidomide for the treatment of morning sickness.
So, in addition to revealing your character, Mr Harris, you are also revealing your ignorance.
ANd @150:
I rather thought as much. An extraordinary claim, with absolutely no intention of backing it up. Is that all you give your patients as well? Your word?
@156:
Ah, so you’ve now backpedaled from claiming you were attacked unprovoked, and admitted you attacked preemptively because you were convinced you’d be attacked? And only becuase your first post got quoted back to you to prove your first claim was a bald-faced lie.
Well, I don’t think I need much more to convince me that you make your conclusions first and then find information to justify them, as you have just described doing precisely that. This does not encourage me to take your word at anything at all.
I’m rather perplexed as to why people are giving so much time and attention to Mr. Harris. It’s readily apparent he’s not here to learn anything, nor to engage in any sort of meaningful conversation. He’d rather insult people (from the very beginning) and make unfounded assertions. He might have been surprised if he’d actually engaged people honestly and respectfully from the start. It would have been a more productive conversation.
But, no, Mr. Harris is simply trolling.
Another day, another pile of aimless, substance-free whining from Peter Harris.
But given his recent myopic obsession, what’s your medical background, Peter. Your medical history you can keep.
“You can leave your message if you will, because it’s bedtime.”
I hope they remembered to fasten the restraints because, you know, sundowning.
I have no issue believing that Mr Harris has successfully treated patients with no side effects. There are plenty of conditions for which the standard of care is some combination of weight change, change of diet, rest, exercise, fluids, immobilization, or some form of physical therapy. If he wisely limits his practice to people with those conditions, as well as the worried well, he could makema nice living and perhaps do some good.
Copyrights? Anyway, this might have to do with the fact that the phrase doesn’t mean anything.
Peter Harris, #127:
“In fact, I have a lot to say about “natural medicine” but most of resolves down to the placebo effect”
You mean “revolves”?”
No, I mean “resolves”. Have you never resolved anything down to its simplest elements? It’s often used in mathematics. I know you have to know some math, or you wouldn’t be able to count out your ill-gotten gains.
#127:
“OK, i look forward to you posting the many RDBPC into Natural Med.”
We all do. They will show you up for the fakes you and it are.
Gray Falcon, #147:
“The reason I keep bringing that statement of Harris’ up is because it is approximately 1800 millipants in terms of implausibility, with 1000 millipants = “I swear to God, officer, these aren’t my pants!””
Wrong unit of measurements in regard to his pants. The correct measurement is “5-alarm pants fire.”
#148, Peter Harris:
It was the FDA that prevented the licensing of thalidomide in the US.
Your trickle is not information, it’s the result of guzzling too much Foster’s Lager.
Peter Harris, #150:
‘You’ll just have to take my word for it.’ Yes, I’m sure your word is worth its weight in gold.
Rye rust must have gotten into your Vegemite.
Peter Harris, #153:
“And whats your medical background???”
And what’s yours????? Your “profession” requires less actual knowledge than any candy-striper.
Calli Arcale, #159:
I knew what he was getting at with his mention of caravans. Also, I believe that, at least until recently, camels have been used for transportation in some parts of Australia.
I just can’t resist having a good straight line handed to me.
@Peter Harris #148:
That is not evidence. It is simple argument by assertion. And as Calli Arcale and Old Rockin’ Dave here have shown, you were wrong about thalidomide and the FDA.
To repeat OP:
“Evidence not assertion. You know links and such from reputable sources.”
@ORD #167: Actually, I’m using SI metric pants, measured using a prototype based off of one of the most commonly used excuses on the plant.
GF & Dave — Possibly because I haven’t yet had my second cup of coffee, but when I read “millipants” I immediately got this Hanna-Barbera image of a millipede in trousers flashing before my eyes.
Truth be told, I only wanted a more granular system of measurement than the current one based on trouser ignition. Also, nobody has ever used the phrase “SI metric pants” before according to Google, so bonus points there, I suppose.
Narad: “Nonetheless, “vaping,” e.g., grass is has to be more lung-friendly than actually smoking.”
And much less lung friendly than skipping the DTaP because it has an adjuvant in it! I looked at the website, it still burning materials that is filter — so no matter what foliage is put into the pipe it is still burned material.
Science Mom: “Huh? I’m going to guess that “vapor genie” has something to do with this but I’m missing a step somewhere.”
It is a pipe: http://vaporgenie.com/
This one is a fancy one where you put in ground up plants (there are a few herb mixtures for sale), light them up with fire and then suck it into the lungs.
Maybe it is because I am sensitive to smoke of any form, even the smoke from the barbecue wood chips, is why I find it ridiculous that someone would want to do that on purpose…. and yet be so fired up about the teeny tiny amounts of adjuvants in vaccines.
(By the way, I cannot walk into a candle shop, nor a makeup store like Sephora because I am that sensitive.)
Ugh, I hate this word: “And much less lung friendly than skipping the DTaP because it has an adjuvant in it! I looked at the website, it still burning materials that is filter — so no matter what foliage is put into the pipe it is still burned material. ”
Let us just say that at least sucking in smoke of any form is slightly less dangerous than sucking in pertussis and diphtheria without being vaccinated.
“a millipede in trousers flashing before my eyes”
It would very difficult for a millipede wearing trousers to flash.
ORD @169: Nice! It’s not every day I see rye ergot in an insult.
@MI Dawn #158 My background…Master’s degree in Science…
I have a hard time believing that you would not specify which science in particular, unless of course, you mean political science.
@Gaist
Are you the same Gaist that can be found here: http://www.gayforum[dot]org/relationships-sex-and-sexuality/favorite-position-t5784/
Reverse Cowgirl? really?
Not necessarily, Chris #176. The idea is to prevent combustion thus conserving the bud by causing a more efficient extraction of the good oils and stuff.
Here is the old school way: Set a jar on the table with part of the lip hanging off. Heat two butter knifes then squeeze a piece of bud between them up inside the glass.
What happens is the ejecting steam/oils prevents oxygen from getting to the bud, spoiling most of the volitiles. It is much more potent for much less herb; Why burn your herb as the heat source to ‘burn’ (drive the volitiles out) your herb?
Without having ever tried one of those vaporgenies, the concept is sound in holding the heated air below the temperatures that would initiate combustion. ” the ‘sweet-spot’ vaporization temperatures of 225-375 degrees” — that’s less than the required farenhiet 459 to drive off and combust methanol from the celluloid plant matter.
RH @181: And in what way is that at all relevant to the discussion at hand?
Since you have nothing constructive to add, why don’t you go get a head start on the holiday weekend and get some fresh air and sunshine?
Reverse Cowgirl? really?
All that means is sitting backward on the toilet facing the tank.
@JustaTech
Just curious. If you haven’t noticed, 90% of this entire thread is irrelevant mudslinging.
@185 Robert Hayes
While you and Mr. Harris have certainly been prolific, you certainly don’t represent 90% of the thread.
“Vaping” by definition involves no combustion of the payload. Whether Steinberg’s product fulfulls* this in the real world, I don’t know. One of his own pages cites “vaporization temperatures of about 225-375 degrees.”
Whether this range is a matter of quality control, user variability, or different versions is unclear to me, but it’s also irrelevant to my point, which is simply that not inhaling combustion particulate is a better choice if one is going to be inhaling cannabis volatiles one way or the other.
I really don’t understand what you’re objecting to about this.
* Erowid description here.
I haven’t really been following this one (although Harris’s suddenly having a friend appear was pretty much enough), but for completeness, I will note that “Richard Hayes” is just another entry in the list of Wisconsin boy’s compulsively Fendling himself.
Why does everyone call me that?
I have been called Fendlesworth everywhere I go. Is this some kind of inside joke?
purpose…. and yet be so fired up about the teeny tiny amounts of adjuvants in vaccines.
The amount of aluminum on vaccines given to a 60 day infant is higher than the MRI. The same amount has been shown to cause behavioral and histological anomalies in mice.
Is this the definition of “teeny tiny”? The amount of aluminum that causes rats to learn a maze 3X slower?
Let me consult my dictionary……Nope. http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/teeny
Hello Dr Gorski:
We invite your criticism of our content on the subject of vaccine safety, and especially the issues we focus on: 1) immune activation-brain development interactions, 2) aluminum adjuvant toxicity and kinetics, and 3) healthy user bias.
VaccinePapers.org is not Natural News. We operate with higher ethical and evidence standards. We denounce the actions by some in the vaccine debate to engage in personal attacks, insults and harassment. We will not do this and we will tell our followers to not do this. We ask that you do the same, and encourage your followers to be similarly respectful.
Both sides do this, including Natural News. The “link to cancer fraudster” smear was preposterous.
We do not demonize. I assume we share the same goal: a medical system that maximizes the health of children and all people. We also share a goal you described in a 2014 column:
“My goal is instead to put science-based information out there, so that the fence sitters and undecided can encounter it. If the occasional true believer listens, then I’ve done far better than I would ever expect.” Dr David Gorski, 2014
The vaccine debate has been in the gutter for far too long. There are important issues raised by recent scientific findings that deserve consideration. People will benefit the most from a rational, polite debate about them.
Respectfully
Vaccine Papers
Why bother to make a new sockie if you’re just going to fling your signature poo in your comments genius?
“Robert Hayes
September 2, 2016
@JustaTech
Just curious. If you haven’t noticed, 90% of this entire thread is irrelevant mudslinging.”
It’s just extraordinary, that a website that purports to be a serious discussion place of medicine, attracts so many imbeciles, that clearly have no understanding of medicine whatsoever.
Their default system is to abuse, confuse and insult, in the total absence of any critical thinking.
They carry on like pork chops, when a little abuse comes back at them, when they get a dose of their and medicine. (Pun intended).
I think those who don’t have an opinion, are all former patients of Dr.Walter Freeman.
And the Neo-James Graham that runs this website, is condemned by the fools and galahs that he allows to populate this website.
If he had any integrity whatsoever, he wouldn’t allow the PWT to make a mockery of his website.
But then again, maybe he’s ethics and integrity, match those who comment here.
Apologies to you ingrates who decided on a war of Insurrection in the 18th Century.
At the same time we were transporting our criminals and low lifes to the Antipodes: It would would seem some bred rather too successfully.
Mr Harris seems to like demanding everyone’s qualifications but seems rather reticent about providing his own.
Over to you ‘Digger’!oo
@ Todd W. #160
Thanks for trying. I’m afraid trolls are the crystal meth of the minions: smoking them is highly addictive, mentally damaging, and leads to dubious obsessive behavior.
@Todd W.
#160
http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com
September 2, 2016
Hello Todd.
I thought I would check out your website, seeing as though you are advertising it.
After I some searching around, I realised where you got the name from;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpo_Marx
It’s so obvious that this website, is a classic Black Ops/propaganda arm, run by the pharmaceutical industry.
And you also claim that you’re not a doctor, and just provide some nebulous and vague qualification.
What chance do children have in the so-called, “land of the free and the home of the brave.”
If you don’t get murdered in your primary school by some gun-toting nutter, aided and abetted by the NRA, then along comes a “Doctor” with his vaccination needle, to do unspeakable damage.
God help the children of America.
Nice try “Todd”. . . No actually pathetic attempt “Todd.”
@Peebs
The Mother Country.
September 2, 2016
Is that Peebs, or Plebs??
Anyway, it’s a hilarious to think that you’re trying to get under my skin by talking about our convict history.
We don’t mind at all, in fact we are proud of our convict heritage.
You can say what you like, try every insult in the book, but it’s like water off a duck’s back. We are impervious to insults. Something to do with our stand alone and survival attitude, when the British dumped us in Australia. We, as Clint Eastwood said; improvised adapted and overcame.
And like all the bumblers here, I stated many times I’m a Naturopath, which requires degrees in chemistry and biology. My thesis was in Evolution Biology.
And what is your qualification to be here??
It’s funny how people demand my qualifications, but no one is willing to tell me theirs,
Narad: “I really don’t understand what you’re objecting to about this.”
I have an extreme sensitivity to smells, especially in smoke form. I have been around those who vape, and it the smell is still quite offensive.
I am a supertaster and can also smell the offensive odor of cilantro from at least a meter away. While a quarter of humans are supertaster, a much smaller portion of us are captured on the cilantro sensitive part of a Venn Diagram.
I did try to explain that. This is why I cannot enter stores that sell candles or cosmetics. I am not joking about this. I refused to go into stores that burned incense in the 1970s, I could not enter a store on vacation that was burning candles, and I actually had to hold my breath in a Sephora store to pay for something my youngest, then in middle school, was buying (I waited outside until she asked me to pay).
I have encountered those who vape, and the smell is very offensive. I just listened to the latest “Oh No Ross and Carrie” where they did an aromatherapy vape. In one point it was described how the smoke hung around a car. While they generally enjoyed it, they did mentioned it was not to be inhaled in lungs!
But sometimes it is. I do not see why that is less dangerous than a DTaP vaccine.
So forgive me if I think someone who cherry picks so much on vaccine adjuvants sells a device for people to inhale flame heated substances in their lungs is a hypocrite.
Blame it on the fact I am a supertaster (which related to smell). I don’t care. Hey, I get lots of flak because I think cilantro tastes like soap (which is not related to being a superstaster), so I am used to it.
The point is that I know what tiny amount of substances can do… and the amount of aluminum in the DTaP is not near enough to affect someone like me. Who, as I said. is both supertaster and has the cilantro alkaloid sensing ability. Why is the air carried capacity of those noxious smelling things less than that of a vaccine?
The smell of vape smoke makes me feel ill. The Tdap I got a few years ago was nothing. While both were a whole lot less than the coughing I had during a pertussis epidemic (never diagnosed, it could have just been a virus), the vape was noxious smelling (similar to Axe products!).
Sorry, I still think anyone who sells pipes to inhale stuff and then claims vaccines are bad is a hypocrite. If you wish to change my mind, you know how to do it. Just produce the citations.
No, I mean, I can detect odor from “E-cigs,” but tobacco “vaping” is different from cannabis vaping, and I’ve never been around the latter – I imagine the grass itself would have more of an aroma in the first place – but I have no interest in the “hypocrisy” angle; Ddanimal fails on the instant topic well enough as it is.
Peter Harris, #198:
”I’m a Naturopath, which requires degrees in chemistry and biology. My thesis was in Evolution Biology.”
According to the website of the Southern School of Natural Therapies,”Our four year Bachelor of Health Science (Naturopathy) degree is…The highest level of naturopathic training available in Australia…”.
Please explain just what kind of baccalaureate program has prerequisites of two other degrees. Also please explain how a baccalaureate program can be “[T]he highest level of naturopathic training available in Australia” if two degrees are necessary, and why none of the Australian naturopathic college websites mention such a requirement.
On the website of the Naturopaths and Herbalists of Australia it is stated: “The current situation is such that any person, with or without training, can practice as either an herbalist or naturopath.” It doesn’t look like there is a very high threshold to be met to hang out your shingle. Just as well. Water and potpourri are easy to come by and not likely to do much harm.
As for your thesis, if it’s a Ph.D. thesis, where can it be found so we can evaluate it ourselves??(?????)
“You can say what you like, try every insult in the book, but it’s like water off a duck’s back.” We know the name for the sound a duck makes and it’s in every word you post, including “a”, “and”, and “the”.
So forgive me if I think someone who cherry picks so much on vaccine adjuvants sells a device for people to inhale flame heated substances in their lungs is a hypocrite.
I think the whole point is that the substances aren’t flame-heated; there’s no actual combustion going on.
Here’s a study showing decreased respiratory symptoms in those who vape vs. those who smoke marijuana, for what it’s worth.
I have an extreme sensitivity to smells, especially in smoke form.
It wouldn’t be smoke, but vapor, which might smell annoying, at least in the “e-cig” variety with strawberry flavor or whatever.
I’ve never been around the latter
It still smells like grass, yeah. I’ve tried it, but I smoke grass so rarely I couldn’t tell you the difference in effect or anything.
As far as e-cigs go, they’ve similarly got to be a better alternative to smoking tobacco, even if they have health risks of their own. And anecdotally, I know of several people who have used them to quit smoking successfully.
I did note today that the signs in Oregon business spaces now say no smoking or vaping within 10 ft. of this establishment.
Gooby plz.
For someone claiming there’s never ever been any RDBPC on any vaccines, “we” is in the third person, cilting insults rather than studies… …It really doesn’t show.
Obviously every shill here is sufficiently qualified, an have Shii grade α-III or above. Otherwise the jackbooted tachyon troopers would have black-bagged us and put us against the wall long ago.
What makes you feel there is are prerequisite qualifications to comment here?
As the only self-admitted Naturopath here, wouldn’t that therefore make you the only bumbler, too?
Hi Vaccinepapers.org
I’ve had a look around, I’m up for a civil conversation, there are some questions to be answered:
1) On the Khan paper “Cerebral translocation was not observed after direct intravenous injection, but significantly increased in mice with chronically altered blood-brain-barrier.” But you are using this paper to state it does move into the brain.
2) You state “AANs from vaccines may remain “dormant” at the injection site for years,” Based on research into people with MMF. A very rare disease involving people who might have an issue with AAN transport.
3) “AAN-containing MFs in the brain slowly leak aluminum into surrounding tissue. This is because the AANs do slowly dissolve, and because cell membranes are leaky to metal ions. MFs leaking aluminum into the brain will cause inflammation of brain tissue nearby. Thus there may be a “halo” of inflamed brain tissue surrounding each aluminum-containing MF in the brain. ”
I don’t see any citations for this mechanism, especially the “halo” effect.
4) I have more concerns, will need to see how you answer the above to what’s next, I’m also off out for the next day or two.
Based on research into people with MMF. A very rare disease involving people who might have an issue with AAN transport.
Using “rare” in the sense that N-rays and phlogiston are “rare”. Reported only by Gherardi and his band of grifters.
@Robert Hayes: apologies for taking so long to answer your question; I have a busy weekend but trying to catch up on things I made comments on. No, my Master’s of Science is in Nursing. Maybe you could have guessed that from my saying I was a RN.
Hi everyone, I’m back!! Ready to read all the responses! Oh wait :/
Herr Dokter, I didn’t know Mr Gherardi was known on here, he looked legit from where I was sitting/ looking. Though I missed the Dwoskin Foundation connection.
Steinberg was never here to start with; when he does pop up outside of VP, it’s mainly to drive traffic there.
I thought he was on page 1 of the comments. Peter Harris also seems to have disappeared since the two degrees for naturopathy nonsense.
“Peter Harris also seems to have disappeared since the two degrees for naturopathy nonsense.”
Not only the quack that runs a site is corrupt and dishonest, but he’s also a sulk.
It appears he cannot tolerate criticism, so he closed down all my comments.
And like your total lack of knowledge in medicine and biology, you have a total lack of knowledge on the higher education system within Australia.
I’m tired of asking the gormless and a feckless here of their qualifications, because I never get an answer, most likely due to the PWT here having absolutely no qualifications whatsoever.
Mr Harris, in what way have your comments been “closed down”? Is it merely the fact that you are unable to properly respond to any of the criticism you’ve been presented with? That would explain why you’ve retreated to a demand for credentials — you are unable to respond on substance.
I have a Bachelor of Arts in computer science and English literature. I believe that makes me every bit as medically qualified as you are. Now that we have that out of the way, are you interested in responding to substantive criticism? Or are you going to hide before a pointless request for every person to provide their qualifications?
“I have a Bachelor of Arts in computer science and English literature”
Then why are you here?
You have no medical knowledge.
And of course, there is no such thing as Bachelor of Arts in English, in America.
There was an urban myth at the time, back in 1980s, when I was at university, that Americans got their university degrees, out of a cereal box.
But it seems over time, that it was no myth that all, and it appears to be true.
Ah, you’re right. I’m surprised that I missed “their” appearance, even with the disjointedness caused by yet another Fendlesworth killfile entry.
@ Narad, will you hate me if I tell you that Fendelsworth is still banging on that thiomersal is metabolised to methyl mercury? Which post here did he say that? Can’t find it for some reason he has so many socks.
What gave you the idea, Peter Harris, that there were prerequisites for commenting here? In what field is your doctorate?
Rather than whining about peoples rights to be here, yourself without a medical degree, maybe it would be more pertinent to evaluate the content they put up.
Like “there’s never ever been any RDBPC on any vaccines,” (demonstraby false) or “we” is in the third person, (blatantly erroneous).
So maybe work on
addingintroducing content into your posts, rather than ephemeral excuses and insults? Sound reasonable?He really is a persistent troll.
Though usualy it is best to respond no more than occasionally to trolls – pointing out the most egregious errors and watch them twist and turn.
I didn’t know Mr Gherardi was known on here, he looked legit from where I was sitting/ looking.
To be scrupulously fair, Shoenfeld’s band of loons have also chimed in with claims to have observed MMF, while attempting to subsume it within their own fictitious syndrome ‘ASIA’.
Isn’t there considerable overlap between Shoenfeld, Gherardi, Exley and Shaw? All of who amazingly have their own pet illnesses caused by aluminum but are yet in total agreement with each other.
Yes and that was a doozy; I enjoyed inflicting humiliation on that troglodyte slob.
Peter Harris, #198:
”I’m a Naturopath, which requires degrees in chemistry and biology.
Old Rockin’ Dave, #201
why none of the Australian naturopathic college websites mention such a requirement?
Peter Harris, Page 2 #10
“you have a total lack of knowledge on the higher education system within Australia”
So do you apparently, also the burden of proof lies with you. So a link to an Australian naturopath course requiring degrees in Chemistry and Biology, or we call BS on you even being a naturopath.
Mr Harris:
I could ask the same of you, as you too have no medical degree, and indeed have made no real attempt to convince us that you do, other than intimating that you have patients. But I do have half of a chemistry degree (before shifting my second major to computer science), which probably puts me ahead of a naturopath. At any rate, Orac permits everyone to post here as long as they aren’t abusive, in spite of your deranged claims of censorship. Ironically, this means you want to exert more control over the commentariat than Orac does.
Ah, sarcasm again. You’re really not very good at it.
In any case, this was your response to my question “Now that we have that out of the way, are you interested in responding to substantive criticism?” Shall I put you down for “no”, then?
@Calli: I notice he slammed on you because your degree is not medical, while totally ignoring my MSN (which probably outranks his “not-a-doctor” degree regarding science requirements.
Mr. Harris, you are priceless (not to be confused with valueless and clueless, which you also appear to be).
Tell me. with all your degrees, what the chemical and physical properties of water that make homeopathy work. Which edition of the bible works best in striking the vessel with the magic water works best, and is it worth a randomized double blinded trial? Why does a leather strap work just as well? What energy is being harnessed by a reiki master? Tell us, in all your naturopathic glory, how do you know when reiki energy or homeopathic dilutions are strong enough to constitute an overdose? How do you choose one homeopathic substance if several produce the same effect? Other than patient self-reporting, how do you know your remedies are actually remediating something? How do you monitor patients for side effects?
I would like to know what the underlying scientific bases for your practices are and how have they been verified.
You have at least one person here who would be open to your facts in preference to your insults.
“I’m a Naturopath, which requires degrees in chemistry and biology.”
Well, *that* is an out and out fantasy.
“It’s funny how people demand my qualifications, but no one is willing to tell me theirs,”
I guess that’s because you are in the business of conning gullible people into thinking you can treat them with your nonscience.
I will happily tell you my relevant qualification: scepticism. Naturopathy contains a mish-mash of absolute drivel and bulldust and is generally practiced by loons with virtually no training in science.
I’m increasingly surprised, by the level of hypocrisy, and double standards.
gaist, Science Mom and Od Rockin’ Dave, just to name a few, would have to be the most ignorant fools one would ever come across on a science Forum.
Their only skill they seem to possess, is some high school level social media dribble/trolling, while at the same time, they don’t even come close to making an argument for conventional medicine. Most likely because they are clueless and feckless high school dropouts that have absolutely no understanding of medicine.
It’s just hilarious and amusing.
And I see some self-flagellator, denies the existence of autoimmune diseases.
Are you joking??? What staggering ignorance.
And now the hyenas here, are doing their best to try and discover my education.
Who said I did all my training and education in Australia?
The arrogance is breathtaking. All the bumblers here, are doing their best to undermine my qualifications, when they themselves don’t have any!
As if I had no right to pass opinion, but they do. As I keep saying, it’s just hilarious.
“I will happily tell you my relevant qualification: scepticism.”
You forgot to add your qualification of being a shill Craig Thomas.
Just last week, I had a client who I have treated 4 times now, in tears.
Not tears of pain, but tears of joy.
For almost 2 decades, this woman in her late 40s had a back complaint.
The conventional doctors pumped her full of pharmaceutical drugs, and after 14 or 15 years of no results, a back specialist suggested surgery.
A friend of a friend passed her on to me, and after 4 treatments, which included some acupressure, her chronic back problem was cured. And of course, there were no side-effects.
That is one of the major differences between natural medicine and the pharmaceutical industry.
Natural medicine will treat the cause, whereas doctors and the pharmaceutical industry, will only treat the symptoms.
The reason of course is that the pharmaceutical industry wants to make profit, and there are no profits in curing someone’s disease, however, there are billions of dollars each year made by treating someone symptoms. Why cure a customers disease, when you can treat their disease for 10/20/30 years. Anyone in marketing will know that, long-term sustainable profits, are only gained when you can have a customer that keeps coming back to you for the remainder of their life, and that’s how the pharmaceutical industry approaches their marketing model.
Some wanker is confusing homoeopathy and Reikei with Naturopathy.
For a start, Reiki is not part of naturopathy, and I very rarely use homoeopathy.
But I know what you’re going to say, all the ignoramuses here will say, hey! Homoeopathy is no better than a placebo, which is not true. But let’s say it is only a placebo.
It’s no better or worse than many of the pharmaceutical drugs, which have been proven to be no better than placebos, but of course homoeopathy doesn’t have any detrimental and chronic side-effects.
The inane drivel here reminds me of my primary school days, when some petulant child would sulk, and not get their own way, we would say; Sooky sooky Lala.
That’s the best way to describe all the head wobblers here.
You can dish it out, but you sulk when it comes back at you.
Oh, and before I go, we have another saying in Australia; “piss and wind,” which is what I read from the commentators here.
But hey, you continue with your ad hominem, such as my level of English, when it compares to yours, and avoid the elephant in the room, and that is, natural medicine is safer and more effective than the current disastrous, and monumentally expensive system that we have today.
http://ethics.harvard.edu/blog/risky-drugs-why-fda-cannot-be-trusted
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20080227/antidepressants-no-better-than-placebo
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/05/160512160657.htm
https://www.consumerhealthdigest.com/joint-pain/steroid-shots-no-better-for-back-pain-than-placebo.html
http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/10/common-decongestant-may-be-worthless-study-finds/
http://www.smh.com.au/national/health/the-drugs-dont-work–medication-for-back-pain-is-no-better-than-placebo-20150331-1mbzwa.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23646964
http://www.wrdw.com/home/headlines/Study-Some-over-the-counter-cold-medicines-no-better-than-placebo-362504511.html
https://floxiehope.com/2015/10/20/the-fda-notes-that-fluoroquinolones-are-no-better-than-placebos/
http://www.thepharmaletter.com/article/boehringer-s-telmisartan-no-better-than-placebo-in-stroke-patients-nejm-study
And. . .
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=26011
Of course, and at the same time. . .
https://www.drugwatch.com/side-effects/
I’ve been ignoring your rants, but this is an opportunity to point out that ‘compare to‘ implies the likening of two things. I suspect that you meant ‘compared with‘.
HTH. HAND.
@Narad
Hey, i see you are no expert on adjectives, pronouns and adverbs.
But hey, you can criticise my English as much as you like, because while you are doing that, and when there’s nothing left to criticise me about, you’re accepting my arguments about the dangers of conventional medicine, and the benefits of natural medicine.
So challenge me all you like about my English, because you don’t have the balls or the brains, to challenge me over medicine and science.
You remind me of the bull in the old Bugs Bunny cartoon.
https://youtu.be/SGD69Q9rz3M
@Peter Harris,
I think the onus is on each of us to try to raise the level of of discourse to that we’d like to converse at.
But I do have a question for someone who is knowledgeable in these matters.
A few years ago, someone gave a friend who was sick several homeopathic remedies. One of these had the same ingredient at 3 different potentiations.
What is the purpose of that?
Lots of words to say nothing, sulky Pete. Methinks Peter Harris has some projection issues.
What you seem to not have understood, even now, is that factual claims are preferred here – assertions you can back up with quality sources, preferably scientific studies, and logic. Assertions you can’t, or that are demonstrated false before and between you repeating them get here the respect they deserve. If you spew insults while repeating them, you get the respect you deserve.
This is a near anonymous comment board – if it really helps you can pretend I said I have a gazillions doctorates in every specialty. Would that make us demonstrating your assertion that there has never ever been any RDBPC trial of any vaccines false easier to bear?
Except, even under the guise of anonymity, I don’t want to pretend to be a doctor of anything. But you can call me Master if you want.
Again, false claims.
Goo for you. But it is part of naturopathy, no? Surely in Naturopathy school they explained to you how it works?
Good for you, that is.
Peter Harris:
“And now the hyenas here, are doing their best to try and discover my education.
Who said I did all my training and education in Australia?”
Who says we care?
This is pure deflection, your assertion was “”I’m a Naturopath, which requires degrees in chemistry and biology”.
We said prove it or prove you know nothing about degrees. It’s obvious from your response you know nothing about degrees…
Liar.
Woo Hoo…Mr Harris! Over here! You keep complaining that people don’t have qualifications to talk about medicine, and somehow you keep missing me. Sorry that I spoil all your fun iin stomping your feet and saying no one who posts here meets your requirements for education.
You haven’t raised any coherent point to “challenge”.
As I get notifications on this thread, it looks like Mr Harris’s last comment is stuck in moderation.
Here is some friendly advice Mr Harris, any comment containing more than one link is placed in automatic moderation, happens all the time. Many of these comments never see light of day, this effect is bipartisan.
But cheer up, you only need to post a link to one naturopath course in the world, with a requirement of a degree in both Chemistry and Biology. I suggest looking the UK, as we have really high academic standards. 😉
Mr. Harris, if your claims about medicine were true, why did we develop antibiotics? We had to shut down numerous tuberculosis treatment centers as a result of it. Likewise, the polio vaccine, which dropped the demand for iron lungs significantly.
Also, Mr. Harris, I did challenge you on medicine. I asked you for proof of your seemingly perfect record. You refused to answer.
@Peter Harris #26, I had a quick look through the links you posted. None of them are about vaccines. How are they relevant to this blog post?
Mr. Harris, if you didn’t do all your training in Australia, then where did you do it?
Also, since you say all these degrees are required to practice as a naturopathic (pseudo-)physician, please reconcile that with the fact that in Australia, where you practice, naturopath is not a protected title, meaning that anyone can hang out a shingle and practice as a self-declared naturopath.
http://unmaskingorac.blogspot.com.au/
I think its outrageous arrogance for everyone here demanding to know my professional life, when they will not reveal their professional background. Unbelievable!
#40
Reduced to posting links to slander, Mr. Harris?
If it is indeed slander, I’m sure Mr Orac will defend himself vigorously.
Weak, Harris… very weak.
Sticks and stones, sticks and stones.
I have noticed that you have not denied any of the accusations.
Instead attacking me as weak.
Ooops.
Actually, it’s libel.
Peter, you are a fraud, a charlatan and a liar.
Over to you.
I would have thought that you would defend Orac, rather than attacking me, so what does it say about those accusations??
You didn’t know? There are two studies showing this.
Determination of methylmercury, ethylmercury, and inorganic mercury in mouse tissues, following administration of thimerosal, by species-specific isotope dilution GC-inductively coupled plasma-MS.
Identification and distribution of mercury species in rat tissues following administration of thimerosal or methylmercury.
The fact you cite NN as a source destroys any credibility you think you had. And Orac is quite capable of defending himself.
I try not to lower myself but this morning, I will.
You are truly an odious, offensive prick of a sub human.
Over to you again. If you think that’s libel, sue me.
There are two studies showing [that thiomersal is metabolised to methyl mercury].
You accidentally truncated the final sentence in that Abstract. It finishes by explaining that
Increased concentrations of CH3Hg+ were also observed, which was found to be due to impurities in the thimerosal.
You can wail and whine all you want Peter, but you’re the only one believing any of it.
But if it helps to get it all out sometimes, be my guest.
That they’re insignificant, meaningless drivel?
“That they’re insignificant, meaningless drivel?”
If so, point them out.
Put up, or shut up.
“You are truly an odious, offensive prick of a sub human.
Over to you again. If you think that’s libel, sue me.”
Having an American PWT trying to undermine me, is like being flogged with a limp stick of celery.
@squirrelelite
“A few years ago, someone gave a friend who was sick several homeopathic remedies. One of these had the same ingredient at 3 different potentiations.
What is the purpose of that?”
If it’s a serious question, I will be happy to answer it.
Either way Doktor Bimler, methylmercury has been shown to be a metabolite and/or a contaminant of Thimerosal. These are just things that I like to point out to the “ethylmercury is inert” crowd.
Why cannot we all admit that it is an insidious poison and ban it like Sweden¹ and Japan have?
¹(where nice people live)
“Either way Doktor Bimler, methylmercury has been shown to be a metabolite and/or a contaminant of Thimerosal. These are just things that I like to point out to the “ethylmercury is inert” crowd.”
Do people forget, or ignore, why the hatters back in the 19 century died from breathing in the fumes of chemicals containing Mercury preservative?
A fairly selective quote from the paper in question. In fact it turns out that the total amount of MeHg found was less than 2% of the total mercury compounds detected 5 days after treatment with thimerosal. This is so close to the 1.5% MeHG impurity in thimerosal that its origin is obvious and provides no evidence of metabolism of thimerosal by demethylation. It is instead metabolised by dealkylation straight to inorganic Hg.
So much for that fantasy again.
“So much for that fantasy again”
The only fantasy is that you think that less than 2 percent in the brain is acceptable
Has no one ever explained to you that not all mercury compounds are identical?
The compound used for felting was mercuric nitrate. This compound has the interesting property of forming Hg2+ ions in solution, which can then turn into mercury vapour.
Also, someone needs to explain to you that the dose makes the poison. The level of exposure of hatters to mercuric nitrate and mercury vapour was orders of magnitude greater than the amount that is in vaccines.
I thought you said that your education included degrees in chemistry and biology?
@ Chris Preston.
Oh I see, another person questioning my scientific ability, when they themselves are totally anonymous and provide no integrity themselves.
Even an avogadro amount of mercury in any form, or even a derivative, is way too much.
In fact it turns out that the total amount of MeHg found was less than 2% of the total mercury compounds detected 5 days after treatment with thimerosal. This is so close to the 1.5% MeHG [sic] impurity in thimerosal that its origin is obvious and provides no evidence of metabolism of thimerosal by demethylation. It is instead metabolised by dealkylation straight to inorganic Hg.
Your idiotic statement implies that 82% of the ethylmercury that reaches the brain is de-ethylated, but every single methylmercury molecule that is injected not only reaches the brain, but none is demethylated.
This is so close to the 1.5% MeHG impurity in thimerosal…
Just another made-up figure. He will not be able to cite a source, and will eventually fage-away just like Doug
Your idiotic statement implies that 82% of the ethylmercury that reaches the brain is de-ethylated, but every single methylmercury molecule that is injected not only reaches the brain, but none is demethylated.
Just another made-up figure. He will not be able to cite a source, and will eventually fag-away just like Doug.
Your idiotic statement implies that 82% of the ethylmercury that reaches the brain is de-ethylated, but every single methylmercury molecule that is injected not only reaches the brain, but none is demethylated.
This is so close to the 1.5% MeHG impurity in thimerosal…
Just another made-up figure. He will not be able to cite a source, and will eventually fage-away just like Doug
Actually, it was only 0.1% of total Hg left in the body that was found as MeHG in the brain. So from a vaccination, that would be 0.1% of 50% of 25 micrograms of Hg equivalent. Yes I think that would be acceptable.
@Peter Harris #52
This is nothing new and has been talked about for example here : https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/behold-my-power-quacks-and-despair/
It is also difficult to take seriously someone opening with “Exposing Dr. David H. Gorski, M.D., Ph.D. who believes he can use a cloak of anonymity”, as if discovering Orac’s identity was somehow difficult. He himself calls it “the worst kept secret in the blogosphere”.
@Peter Harris #52
This is nothing new and has been talked about for example here : https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/behold-my-power-quacks-and-despair/
It is also difficult to take seriously someone opening with “who believes he can use a cloak of anonymity”, as if discovering Orac’s identity was somehow difficult. He himself calls it “the worst kept secret in the blogosphere”.
@Peter Harris:
Oh my word! I had fish last night! I guess the minute amount of mercury in it is harmful no matter what!
Oh wait. The dose makes the poison. In fact, it is impossible to not ingest mercury.
@Chris Preston
The Rodriquez study found MeHg levels in the kidney (95.9 ng/g), liver (71.9 ng/g), heart (89.7 ng/g) and the brain (61.3 ng/g). This exceeds your alleged 1.5% impurity level.
No it doesn’t. In fact that is a completely asinine statement.
It is a worthwhile exercise to go to the paper and do the calculations of how much Hg in its various forms is in all the organs. For this the average organ weights will do for an estimate. Rat brains are small. Less than 2% of the body weight. Rat livers are quite a lot larger.
Peter Harris, it was you who made an issue of this. You claimed to have some sort of expertise that it is quite clear from your posts that you don’t possess.
I don’t have to cite the source. You have already provided a link to it. Are you telling me you haven’t read the paper?
“You claimed to have some sort of expertise that it is quite clear from your posts that you don’t possess.”
Pot, kettle.
And your “expertise” is???
Apart from playing the “paizein.”
Peter Harris:
“Even an avogadro amount of mercury in any form, or even a derivative, is way too much.”
Well yes, I think most people would find 200.59g of Mercury excessive.
Hey, if anybody needed any evidence to show that Mr Harris doesn’t read the links he posts, check this one:
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=26011
Autism Drug Secretin Found Ineffective
“The largest clinical trial of secretin to date has shown that the drug is no better than a placebo (“sugar pill”) in improving the social interaction of young children with autism. The study was done by Repligen, the company licensed to produce secretin”
Fair play to Repligen, people say mean things about Big Pharma, but lookie here Big pHarma tests it’s product, finds that it doesn’t work and publishes it’s results. If only the Alt Med mob were so honest!
No it isn’t a metabolite. And you left out the part that the Burbacher et al. study demonstrated your little fantasy. Surely you can point out in the study where and show the chemical reaction.
“Oh my word! I had fish last night! ”
https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/mercury-in-fish
This should destroy your nonsense, and the arguments of the other “experts.”
“Mercury from most fish sold in Australia is not a health risk, when fish is consumed as part of a normal diet. ”
So it would seem that the dose does indeed matter.
You truly are ignorant Peter Harris.
@Chris Preston.
And the cherry picking award for the week goes to. . .
Mr. Harris, did you actually read the page, or did you just look up “Mercury” and “Fish” on Google?
You are so bad at this that I am starting to get board. This post is for lurkers.
The argument Peter Harris has put forward is that even a small amount of mercury in the body is far too much. An Avagadro amount was the term he used, presumably to mean one molecule, rather than 1 mole.
He then links to recommendations for fush consumption. These recommendations specifically state that methylmercury is the most hazardous form of mercury and is in fish. Therefore pregnant women and children should limit their fish intake – not exclude fish, but limit it. However,for everyone else in Australia, fish containing methylmercury in small amounts is not a hazard as consumed in a normal diet.
At this point it is worth noting that vaccines contain ethylmercury, which is not metabolized in the body to methylmercury. Making the relevance of the Australian guidelines for fish consumption irrelevant to the safety of vaccines.
FTFY.
Todd W: I think Mr. Harris assumes that simply his word that he cured people other doctors couldn’t should be sufficient. Never mind that I could just as easily write a comment saying that I managed to cure someone’s paralysis by simply ordering him to stand up and walk.
@Gray Falcon
Oh, I know. Just pointing out the hypocrisy of getting so worked up about other people’s credentials, but then vigorously dodging any requests for his own, with a haughty, “How dare you!”, as if everyone else here were mere plebes that he, a member of some vaunted (yet fictitious) aristocracy, is deigning to address. He’s the overbearing father straight out of an Oscar Wilde comedy, but with none of the wit or humour. I can almost see his face turning red in apoplectic rage whenever he comments.
I do find it odd that someone who has degrees in chemistry and biology would use “avagadro amount”, since it has no explicit meaning. It certainly doesn’t mean infinitesimal, which the context seems to suggest. I suspect it comes from misunderstanding criticisms of homeopathy. Maybe it’s more Australian slang, possibly related to small beer.
~~~
I am reminded of Dr. J.A. Zoidberg: “It so happens I have mail order degrees in Murderology and Murderonomy.”
@ Gray Falcon.
“I think Mr. Harris assumes that simply his word that he cured people other doctors couldn’t should be sufficient”
Clearly, your feckless attempt at trolling is affecting your grammar, so I suggest a Bex and a good lie down.
Mr Harris: Let me rephrase, then. Why should we trust what you say? I could just as easily claim to have healed people by sheer force of will.
@ Todd W.
“I can almost see his face turning red in apoplectic rage whenever he comments.”
Ha ha.
Nice Try Todd.
I suggest you keep both hands on the keyboard when you write.
Oh, and what does the W stand for?
@Gray Falcon.
“I could just as easily claim to have healed people by sheer force of will.”
Oh, but you do Mr Falcon, you “doctors” call it placebo.
Why should we trust you, Mr. Harris?
@Gray Falcon.
“Why should we trust you, Mr. Harris?”
Because I’m one of the few genuine contributors here, and not a pharmaceutical shill.
And why should we trust you Mr Falcon???
Oops, my bad, rhetorical question.
@Peter Harris (54)
Yes, it was a serious question.
I prefer to make statements supported by evidence or at least that I can provide supporting evidence for if asked, rather than just asking questions.
The product was Viscum Compositum Medium by Heel.
It contained Viscum Album in D10, D28, and D198 potentiations.
By chemical measurements, the D10 would provide 1 part in 10 billion in the little 10 ml vial. It would be extremely unlikely for there to be any molecules of the D28 and D198 parts. In fact, I don’t know how you could measure the D10 part to 19 significant digits to even tell if the D28 part was there or not in a commercial manufacturing facility.
But, by homeopathy, the effect of the D198 part is so vastly more powerful that it would dwarf the effects of the other two.
So why add the second? And, especially why add the in-between part?
http://www.homotoxicology.net/matmed/combo/ll.6qq.htm
Mr. Harris, calling people “shills” is nothing more than libel. What’s more, companies stand to make more money from diseases than prevention. Why should we trust you?
Of course it was made up – very conspicuously so. I do give you credit for the uncertainty versus digits catch, but you apparently totally missed the fact that the specified uncertainty would result in greater than 100% at the upper end.
Hint: calculate the sum of all of the specified ingredients in a vaccine and subtract that from the dose amount. The remainder is water. Most vaccines will be more than 99% water, and in many cases sodium chloride, used to adjust osmotic concentration, will be the biggest non-water component. Phenoxyethanol, to the extent of 1-2%, is used in some vaccines.
“What’s more, companies stand to make more money from diseases than prevention.”
Did you accidentally admit that, or are you just out of Bex?
And the Straw Man and ad hominem awards for the week go to…
“And the Straw Man and ad hominem awards for the week go to…”
It’s called blow-back.
Goodnight piss-ants.
Mr. Harris, I didn’t “accidentally” admit anything. A reduction in vaccine intake would result in more cases of measles, mumps, rubella, and such side-effects as encephalitis and birth defects, which pharma companies would most certainly make more money on than any number of vaccines. How do we know that isn’t your goal?
“I do find it odd that someone who has degrees in chemistry and biology would use “avagadro amount”, since it has no explicit meaning. ”
I don’t, it was a trap, if he had “won”, he would have claimed at being the only one who knows Chemistry.
Look guys I know this is fun and all, but we are training up a troll here, IMHO we should focus on his initial b*llsh*t of a two degree requirement for naturopathy and just generally poke fun at naturopathy. That way we still get our kicks and Mr Harris gets no wiser.
The “point” of insignificant meaningless drivel, Peter, is that there is nothing to point out.
Having said that, it is painfully obvious that the point of that whole whine was you – having talked yourself into an indefensible position – trying to change the subject to draw attention away from your confused drivel and then wailing when others did not readily jump at the opportunity.
BTW, is there any evidence of Peter Harris’s online existence prior to a few similar, recent Y—be comments?
@Peter Harris
Would you be so kind as to point me to a source for your assertion that becoming a naturopath requires degrees in chemistry and biology? Just to remind you, here is your quote from #198 (page 1):
It is pertinent, in this context, to point out another of your comments (#90, page 2):
@Narad
Doesn’t seem like it.
Jay, I’m not sure he has what is required to set a trap. Maybe.
Is anyone aware of a legitimate medical school that requires separate degrees in chem & bio for entry? Around here, someone with dual majors for one degree (pretty rare) might have improved chances of acceptance, as would someone with a master’s, but I know of no med school that has stated requirements beyond a baccalaureate, and then not necessarily in science.
Hi Jay
Answers to your questions are below.
YOUR QUESTIONS:
I’ve had a look around, I’m up for a civil conversation, there are some questions to be answered:
1) On the Khan paper “Cerebral translocation was not observed after direct intravenous injection, but significantly increased in mice with chronically altered blood-brain-barrier.” But you are using this paper to state it does move into the brain.
2) You state “AANs from vaccines may remain “dormant” at the injection site for years,” Based on research into people with MMF. A very rare disease involving people who might have an issue with AAN transport.
3) “AAN-containing MFs in the brain slowly leak aluminum into surrounding tissue. This is because the AANs do slowly dissolve, and because cell membranes are leaky to metal ions. MFs leaking aluminum into the brain will cause inflammation of brain tissue nearby. Thus there may be a “halo” of inflamed brain tissue surrounding each aluminum-containing MF in the brain. ”
I don’t see any citations for this mechanism, especially the “halo” effect.
********************
ANSWERS:
1) Its important to read the whole paper, and not just the abstract. Movement of particles depends on where they are injected. IM and IV particles travel around the body differently. IM particles move to the brain and other organs, and Khan showed this (see page 5, fig 1, also available on VP website). IV particles don’t wind up in the brain, possibly because they are captured by the liver and are not phagocytosed by macrophages. Movement of particles is more complicated than kinetics of soluble substances, because the movement depends on movement of macrophages, which is influenced by chemotaxis (CCL2 production). So, the kinetics of nanoparticles is strongly dependent on the activity of the immune system.
From Khan:
“Both latex particles and aluminum hydroxide agglomerates promote inflammation [40,41] and non-specific immune stimulation can increase monocyte transendothelial migration by up to 20-fold in in vitro models of the BBB [42]. Consistently, i.m. injec- tion of rCCL2 strongly increased particle incorporation into intact brain while CCL2-deficient mice had decreased neurodelivery. Cerebral infusion of low doses of rCCL2, mimicking pathological states attracting inflammatory monocytes, also increased particle neurodelivery.”
AND
“Neurodelivery of nanomaterials significantly increased in mice with either a weak BBB or high tissue levels of CCL2, as previously suspected for pathogens in humans [48]. On the one hand, such a cerebral in- corporation of nanomaterials injected into tissues should be regarded as an interesting characteristic in the setting of therapeutic strategies targeting the CNS. On the other hand, alum has high neurotoxic potential [49], and plan- ning administration of continuously escalating doses of this poorly biodegradable adjuvant in the population should be carefully evaluated by regulatory agencies since the compound may be insidiously unsafe. It is likely that good tolerance to alum may be challenged by a variety of factors including overimmunization, BBB immaturity, in- dividual susceptibility factors, and aging that may be associated with both subtle BBB alterations and a progressive increase of CCL2 production [50].”
Note that autistics have abnormally high levels of CCL2, and that CCL2 is stimulated by some vaccines (e.g. MMR and measles). its a chemokine that is produced by some types of immune activation.
2) True. But what i wrote is also supported by Flarend 1997. Flarend contradicts the idea that Al adjuvant is rapidly eliminated, or eliminated in a few months.. Flarend showed that Al adjuvant is eliminated very slowly. AlOH had 94% retention after 28 days. Flarend is the best study we have on the kinetics of Al adjuvant. It also shows transport to the kidneys, spleen, liver, lymph nodes and brain, after intramuscular injection, though Flarend is not capable to showing these are nanoparticles. Flarends measurement of Al in organs do not distinguish between Al3+ and nanoparticles.
Dissolution into Al3+ is the only way al adjuvant particles can be excreted. And they take years to dissolve.
Persistent Al adjuvant retention at injection site has been observed in animals: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26384437
Itchy nodules can result from Al adjuvanted vaccines and persist for years. This demonstrates that the adjuvant does not completely dissolve on this time scale.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23052615
3) Which aspect of the “halo effect” do you have a problem with? BTW, the “halo effect” is my own proposal/conjecture.
Its well known that movement of ions in/out of a cell is largely driven by diffusion, unless there is active transport (molecular biology textbooks discuss this). And there is no active transport of aluminum to retain it in the cell. Macrophages containing adjuvant will have a higher concentration of Al3+ than surrounding fluid. Cell membranes are leaky and therefore Al3+ will leak from the macrophages that contain Al adjuvant. Al adjuvant does slowly dissolve. Hence, macrophages loaded with al adjuvant will constantly be releasing Al ions into the surrounding environment. Not much in this line of reasoning should be controversial.
Also, keep in mind that this simple analysis ignores the toxicity of the AlOH nanoparticles per se. AlOH cannot be assumed to have zero toxicity apart from released Al3+ ions. Research shows that nanoparticles can be toxic due to surface chemistry effect. Toxicity also depends on shape and size of nanoparticles.
If you would like to discuss these or other issues further, please comment at the vaccinepapers.org website. This forum is not good for discussion because of the single-thread organization. Also, it would be appropriate to discuss VP content on the VP website.
Thank you
VP
Indurations are now “itchy nodules”?
No, this is fine to discuss here and no one has had a problem before. I’ve seen the way you operate Steinberg and you just want to control the narrative so when you devolve into one of your petulant rants you can just shut down your critics.
Science Mom — not to mention drive traffic to his worthless site.
It’s not as though that bit couldn’t have been seen coming.
Disqustink is just so much more convenient in certain contexts.
But they don’t accept advertising!
So, VP Steinberg, which is really more dangerous the itsy bitsy bit of aluminum in the DTaP vaccine or pertussis? How about tetanus and diphtheria?
You can cry all you want about the dangers of the most common metal element on this planet’s crust, but unless you come up with a viable way to prevent those three diseases adequately — you are just making a bunch of useless smoke and noise.
@ Shay, Dan Steinberg (the royal “we” behind vaccine papers) claims he doesn’t make any money from his site so that’s not the incentive to drive the traffic there. It’s what I stated along with ego, he’s got a rather petulant disposition and will block/delete comments that are too critical of his “interesting” interpretations of studies in violation of copyright by the way so another reason to stay away from his site.
The pathetic level of discourse here is apparent. I will not participate in this stream of insults and nonsense. You can see all the evidence for the danger of aluminum in vaccines at vaccinepapers.org.
Bye
@vaccine papers: So, you’ll be back in an hour, I guess.
Steinberg is just a noisy little irritant who cannot read/understand a scientific paper. I think he posted a paper elsewhere about when pregnant mice are infected with a virus (not a vaccine) that the baby mice are affected.
Yep, he tried to prove vaccines were bad with a paper showing that infections in pregnancy should be avoided (it took a bit, but I found it… he seems care deeply about the health of rodents).
Awww, but I’d love to discuss the Petrik and Shaw et al. papers.
@Peter Harris #96:
I do find it odd that someone who has degrees in chemistry and biology would use “avagadro amount”, since it has no explicit meaning.
Perhaps Harris meant “avocado number”.
Science Mom — actually, I was thinking of ego rather than advertising.
The only time I ever got him to actually post a cite (on the Skeptical Raptor’s blog), it was an animal study that mostly said “this could be significant and should be studied further.” This after asking him for his best shot.
You’re correct — he hates it when he can’t control the discussion.
VP @104: You say ” non-specific immune stimulation can increase monocyte transendothelial migration” as evidence that Al and latex go into the brain. Two points:
1) Vaccination is very specific immune stimulation, not non-specific. That is the point of vaccination, the stimulation of a very specific immune response.
2) How does the migration of monocytes show a mechanism for particles to move into the brain? Is this paper saying that monocytes somehow get covered with the aluminum particles at the injection site and then migrate all the way to the brain while trailing alum? That seems awfully convoluted.
[@JustaTech ] You may have to pose that question at vaccinepapers.org. I don’t think that the author wishes to tolerate the kind of childish abuse that is found here.
Too bad Fendelsworth; he isn’t controlling the discussion. And you’re sure one to talk about “childish abuse” calling people retards just for starters.
Lars @ 120: Nothing about my question was either childish or abusive.
Do you speak for Vaccine Papers now?
Fendlesworth…Steinberg…Fendlesworth…Steinberg…
Hmm.
Very unlikely, IMNSHO.* Somebody probably mentioned it in his control-space.
* For more than linguistic reasons.
I thought this thread was beginning to Peter out, but here it is showing that it still has lots of “life force” left.
Mr. Harris:
“Science Mom and Od Rockin’ Dave, just to name a few, would have to be the most ignorant fools one would ever come across on a science Forum.
Their only skill they seem to possess, is some high school level social media dribble/trolling, while at the same time, they don’t even come close to making an argument for conventional medicine. Most likely because they are clueless and feckless high school dropouts that have absolutely no understanding of medicine.”
My qualification is a baccalaureate cum laude as a physician assistant from the Sophie Davis School of Medicine of the City College of New York which included hands-on instruction from Columbia University at Harlem Hospital and other locations, followed by twenty years’ clinical practice, much of it alongside a number of world-renowned researchers. To be licensed, I had to take a national certifying exam that required a level of knowledge nearly equivalent to a resident in family medicine, 140 hours of CME every two years, and a recertifying exam not much less rigorous and extensive than the original every six years, a set of requirements more stringent than most other health professions. On Day One I knew and understood more actual medicine than you do now. I showed you mine, now you show me yours.
“Natural medicine will treat the cause, whereas doctors and the pharmaceutical industry, will only treat the symptoms.”
What a load of bollocks! For one, medicine treats infections by killing off the infecting organisms. Quackery treats them with some hand waving, or some flower-sniffing, and claims to have overcome conditions that were likely never present to begin with. How would you use “natural medicine” to treat gallstones? Klebsiella pneumonia? Byssinosis? Hepatitis B?
“The reason of course is that the pharmaceutical industry wants to make profit, and there are no profits in curing someone’s disease, however, there are billions of dollars each year made by treating someone symptoms. Why cure a customers disease, when you can treat their disease for 10/20/30 years. Anyone in marketing will know that, long-term sustainable profits, are only gained when you can have a customer that keeps coming back to you for the remainder of their life, and that’s how the pharmaceutical industry approaches their marketing model.”
This is so far removed by reality that I don’t even need to rebut it. Everyone who has worked in actual science-based medicine knows that screed for the blather that it is.
“I very rarely use homoeopathy.”
But you do use it. Just the fact that you had to qualify that statement shows that you are on the defensive discussing it, and rightly so. You still haven’t answered the questions about your understanding of how it works.
” But I know what you’re going to say, all the ignoramuses here will say, hey! Homoeopathy is no better than a placebo, which is not true. But let’s say it is only a placebo.
It’s no better or worse than many of the pharmaceutical drugs, which have been proven to be no better than placebos, but of course homoeopathy doesn’t have any detrimental and chronic side-effects.”
The difference being that when pharmaceuticals are proven to be placebos, they are taken off the market. Peddlers of mystic nostrums just keep on selling the same crap with the same con artistry that they have been peddled with for generations. Homeopathy doesn’t have side effects because a clean glass of water doesn’t have any. That’s not even considering the side effect of diverting a patient from actual medicine that has scientific knowledge behind it.
“[T]hey don’t even come close to making an argument for conventional medicine.” We don’t have to. We have a vast amount of research, knowledge, and experience collectively. You don’t.
As I’m sure you’ve read, extraordinary claims demand an extraordinary level of proof. We’ve got a daunting amount of data of many kinds backing us up. You don’t, so you’re the one making the extraordinary claims.
There is a Yiddish expression: “Tuchus afn tish” – put your ass on the table. Pony up some facts.
And to bring the discussion down to your level, I offer this quote from Elaine Benes: “I hope a dingo eats your baby.”
ORD: Indeed, how about Mr Harris get some skin in the game and go down to his local ambulance service and sign a statement that he will never accept any “conventional” medical treatment for any condition or injury.
He can then check back in with us when he is 100 and we will be duly impressed.
“How would you use “natural medicine” to treat …”
or tuberculosis, or retinal detachment, or cataract, or plague, or filariasis, or rabies, or giant cell arteritis, or acites due to cirrhosis, or deep vein thrombosis, or aneurysm, or patent ductus arteriosus, or Grave’s disease, or …
@Doug
A simple-minded approach that does not take into account the change in water’s density as a function of solute concentration. Calculating the mass of the water based solely on the mass of the solutes is bound to give an incorrect figure.
[Fig 1]
[Fig 2]
@Chris Preston
After I pointed out how all of the alleged MeHg impurites in Thimerosal would have to diffuse into the brain, and nowhere else for this to be true, he continues with:
So what is it Chris Preston? Are you ready to show your math?
So, Fendelsworth, when are you going to tell us which vaccine in the present American pediatric schedule is only available with thimerosal?
Cheers VP, interesting stuff. There seems to be bad blood between you and some of the old timers, but we can still chat. Thanks for the invite, but would like to continue here, I’m kind of wary of which sites I comment on.
Onto business:
1) I did read a fair chunk, to be fair I slightly confused it with another paper. About it moving to the brain, it still was “This occurs at an extremely low rate in normal mice”. For everything else he’s using mutant mice to get the alarming results. And the dosage “The dose of alum-containing vaccine administered to mice was calibrated to mimic the mean number of doses received by MMF patients. “.
That’s between 4-6 doses, at the same time, all on the same site. The action of that osmotic micropump is to me a bit strong too, “rCCL2 was infused for 14 days”.
But at the end of the day I do not discount the idea of Macrophages bearing encapsulated AAN moving round the body… whether they cause damage or not, totally moot.
Socky: “A simple-minded approach …”
Sure, and entirely adequate for purpose.
If your objective is to prove that you can find stuff on the web that is beyond your ability to understand, you are succeeding famously. What was it I said? “Most vaccines will be more than 99% water …”. “More than” rather implies an approximation, nicht wahr?
The total content of solutes, suspended solids or mixed liquids in the majority of vaccines is under 1% – and that statement holds regardless of the temperature (within the allowable range of use or storage for vaccines) or whether the preparation is w/w or w/v or v/v. Vaccines don’t contain a bunch of ethanol, so your figure 1 is completely irrelevant. 2- phenoxyethanol isn’t ethanol. The very bottom end of figure 2 is applicable. Do you know what concentration of sodium chloride in water is approximately isotonic for mammals, off the top of your head? The standard way to spec it is w/v. No, you say? Do run off and find it on the web, then calculate what the error in water content would be if the density were taken as 1.000. Remember, we’re talking about the error in the water content, not the error in the solute content. Then have a look around the web and see if you can find a clip from Meatballs where Bill Murray’s character is dancing around repeating a phrase to Chris Makepeace’s character. It is a useful phrase (sentence, actually).
Saying 99% water ain’t good enough if our requirement is high precision. It ain’t. I can say it is 99% water and be within an uncertainty of ±1% for the majority of vaccines. But you can’t work the other way round and say the solute content is 1% with any confidence.
This reminds me of a partner I had for a biochem lab. The objective was to do something (I’ve long forgotten what) with an extract of calf thymus. There was a stock bottle of solvent mixture for the extraction. We were supposed to use, iirc, 30 ml of solvent. I took a 50 ml beaker, eyeballed the volume and took it back to our bench. No, no, no, my partner, who didn’t understand the concept of bucket chemistry, insisted. “We have to measure it accurately.” He dumped the contents of my beaker into a grad cylinder (which he didn’t have to wash), only to find it was within about a millilitre of the specified volume. It is important to understand when it just doesn’t matter.
Anyone know how to summon the sock eater that lives in the cellars of The Unseen University – the one that ate a sock belonging to, appropriately enough for this occasion, the Chair of Indefinite Studies? Merely mentioning it out loud doesn’t seem to work, perhaps because it isn’t Hogswatch.
Or maybe I should start a ComeGimmeMoney thing to fund a dozen new banhammers for our host.
Another day, and more deflections and hypocrisy.
My God, I cannot even go to sleep, without being accused of, “running away.”
Commentators here are wasting their time, if they think I’m going to bite, by trying to out me, question my medical knowledge, or the language I use.
You only make yourselves look more foolish, if that’s possible.
I think I was right in the 1st place, to describe some here as bedwetters and dribblers, headed by none other than the chief head wobbler, Grey Falcon.
He breathlessly demands answers, while hiding behind a wall of anonymity himself.
If I don’t stick to the topic, I’m admonished for being off topic, but it’s ok for the head wobbler to continue, what will be a wasted attempt, by trying to out my professional career.
A troll is an apt description for Grey Falcon, when you look at all the other disingenuous, hypocritical BS he spews on other forums, and questioning other commentators, at the same time showing complete cowardice himself.
But hey, this is not surprising when you view this blog is a cult.
We have a crazy Guru (Orac), and his minions/disciples, who slavishly regurgitate more nonsense in defence of their master, while they are completely oblivious to the hypocrisy and nonsense they spew.
But this is typical of a cult leader/disciple relationship.
Disciples/minions lead meaningless and prosaic lives, and in order to put some purpose and colour into their lives, they gravitate around a false prophet.
In this case a quack, with a dubious medical record, and an even more dubious persona.
So I’m making the “The Harris rule.”
If you want to ask a question of me, about anything whatsoever, you need to state your professional background (if there is one).
http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/11/dr-david-gorski-admits-thimerosal-might-cause-autism.html
@squirrelelite
September 8, 2016
@Peter Harris (54)
“Yes, it was a serious question”
I still have my doubts.
You have been prolific over the years discussing this topic on other forums, so I’m sure you’ve got your answers before.
But if you persist, scroll down to Potentisation, (Which is the right description, potentiations means something else).
http://www.marlev.com/HowItWorks.htm
@Doug
The point is Doug, is that you sad you knew how much water was in a vaccine and I called you out on it.
And after a bunch of hand-waving, you finally admitted to it:
Certainly you cannot be talking about Merck’s ProQuad®, which includes: 21 mg of sucrose, 11 mg of hydrolyzed gelatin, 2.4mg of sodium chloride, 1.8 mg of sorbitol, and a few more milligrams of salt and protein per 0.5mL.
Using your own simple and inaccurate calculation would put this vaccine at around 91% water.
You seem to have a problem with reading comprehension. The first value was the % of MeHg found of all Hg compounds. The second value is the % of MeHg found in the brain compared to all Hg compounds.
But if you really want the math, Hg compounds come from this paper http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00204-010-0538-4
Average organ weights from this paper http://tpx.sagepub.com/content/32/4/448.full.pdf+html
Following thimerosal treatment, Inorganic Hg was found at 163 ng/g in the brain, 2999.7 in the liver, 844.7 in the heart and 9581.9 in the kidneys. MeHg at 61.3, 71.9, 89.7 and 95.9 ng/g in the same organs and EtHg at 35, 105.3, 0 and 382.2 ng/g in the same organs.
Multiplying these values by the weight of each organ, gives 122.6 ng MeHg in the brain and a total of 1696 ng MeHg in all 4 organs. Total Hg in all forms found in the 4 organs was 90,664 ng. Therefore, MeHg compared to all Hg forms was 1.87% of the total. The 122.6 ng MeHg in the brain was 0.14% of all the Hg forms in all the organs. So if you want a rough estimate of the percentage of MeHg that will end up in the brain after 5 days from a single application of thimerosal, it will be less than 0.14% of the total Hg remaining. Hg from thimerosal has a half-life of less than 7 days in the body, so cut these values roughly in half to account for that.
Again, Peter Harris graces us with his yet more of his no substance deflection and hypocrisy he probably doesn’t even realize is there. Irony meters are overheating worldwide.
Given how he’s avoided answering practically any questions addressed to him so far, I see little point in asking anything more, but being steadfastly optimistic I shall persevere.
Peter Harris, do you agree that your claim that there’s never ever been any RDBPC on any vaccines was false?
If yes, glad I could be of use.
If no, well, there is very little to discuss after that.
As for your cute “Harris rule” tangent – it must make you fun at parties. I’ll indulge you this once, out of pity. My professional background (A Masters and a separate Bachelors degree) is directly relevant to my current profession not in the field of medicine. The professional background of the people I quoted to disprove your claim is varied, but is directly related to medicine and the vaccines they wrote about.
Also, Pete, if you actually were interested in actual discussion (and helping people), you could for example recall the patient whose back you seemingly treated in four sessions. Simply link to the best study you know of, of the treatment(s) you used, and the discussion would flow from there.
But it’s of course easier to just call people bed-wetters and then whine how they don’t agree with the vast evidence you haven’t offered, doncha think? (ough em gee, a question.). Makes it easier to maintain your self-selected indignation.
I will start out by saying that I did misread one of your sentences:
But I misread this as 2% of the total mercury injected. In light of your previous facetious attempt to pass off a confabulated number, I had assumed that you were at it again.
Here are the numbers from the Rodrigues study:
Brn=0162.9[I-Hg]_ 61.3 [MeHg]_035.0[EtHg]__259.2[Hg]
Lvr=2999.7[I-Hg]_ 71.9 [MeHg]_503.1[EtHg]__3574.7[Hg]
Hrt=0844.7[I-Hg] _89.7 [MeHg]_000.0[EtHg]__934.4[Hg]
Kdy=9581.9[I-Hg]_ 95.9 [MeHg]_382.2[EtHg]_10060.0[Hg]
Tot=13589.2I-Hg]_318.8 [MeHg]_920.3[EtHg]_14828.3[Hg]
From these figures, the total MeHg concentration is 2.15%. When you converted the concentrations into masses, though necessary for your other calculation, you introduced noise into this calculation. Rodrigues did not include the mass of the rats, so that was an approximation.
So if the 2.15% of MeHg recovered from these rats were due to an impurity in the Thimerosal, and that 2.15% of the total Hg recovered from the rats was MeHg, you are forced to conclude that MeHg metabolizes at the exact same rate as the EtHg from Thimerosal.
https://youtu.be/3tyIxVkqiyU
Truly, commenter 135, you cut me to the quick with your sharp wit. (NOT)
Still I took the bait and did a quick Google search, which turned up 10 hits going back to 2009. A couple of those were only because my recent comment notifications happened to get caught in the search. One I had 3 comments, another just 1.
Yup, truly prolific.
It reminded me of a little game my son used to play where the idea was to get you to look at something and if you looked, you lost.
I guess my skills at teasing even the most willful commenter into at least conversing must be slipping. I think I’ll watch the very first Star Trek episode from 50 years ago instead. I told my high school chemistry teacher about it the next day and he became a fan. I probably would have benefited from spending more time on Thursday nights studying my honors chemistry course, but I joined practically the whole dorm floor in the lounge each week to watch Star Trek.
@ gaist.
. . .there’s never ever been any RDBPC on any vaccines was false?
If yes, glad I could be of use.
If no, well, there is very little to discuss after that.”
I mention dribblers and bed wetters, and look who turns up.
You keep banging on about this issue, like a child with ADHD. You keep saying im wrong, but you never provide any scientific evidence to prove otherwise.
Give me at least 10 links to studies that prove me wrong, that shouldn’t be too hard, should it?
Put up or just shut up, before you turn polysialia into a contagious disease. (but I’m sure they’ll have a vaccine for that).
@Peter Harris:
You are a liar. I went back to gaist’s very first comment on this post. Included was a link to proof that a vaccine had undergone a RDBPC. Your claim that gaist has provided no proof is a lie. Here is the link.
https://public.health.oregon.gov/PreventionWellness/VaccinesImmunization/GettingImmunized/Documents/SchRotacriteria.pdf
All that is needed to prove you wrong (and a liar) is one study. And I have provided gaist’s link again.
I see you keep evading the issue. What makes you dismiss with the study I linked to (as did Dorit Reiss)?
Why demand ten when one will suffice?
In case you forgot, You claimed “there’s never ever been any RDBPC on any vaccines”.
“Why demand ten when one will suffice?”
Because if I had submitted one study, into some specific aspect of natural medicine, of which there was no review by a respected institution, you would totally dismiss it as an aberration.
Seriously?
You truly are an idiot.
Those numbers are in ng/g of organ weight. You cannot add them together without taking account of the different weights of the organs. I mean this is basic stuff.
From this complete basic failure all of your arguments fall into irrelevance.
Just to pre-empt repetitive whining and continued reading failure from Pete…
Here’s the link Dorit Reiss offered before, as did I in the very post (£138) you quote to snivel how I didn’t offer any evidence…
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa052664
Here’s more:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=double+blind+placebo+controlled+trial+vaccine
There’s your “at least ten”, even if there are few keyword mis-hits.
Now, back to my question.
Was your statement false or not?
Too late to pre-empt, but whatever.
No. To prove efficacy, you can’t just look at one study, but to prove something has happened at least once, proof of a single instance will suffice. This. Isn’t. That. Complicated.
@JF.
Do you actually read the links you send?
“The FDA is recommending that healthcare providers temporarily stop using this
vaccine in children until further studies are done.”
@Chris Preston
No Chris, you are an idiot.
The number is 2.15%, and not 1.87%. You got 1.87% because you converted the concentrations into mass based on average organ weights, and then calculated the ratio of MeHg to total Hg: A pointless step that introduces uncertainty.
The units don’t matter here because you are just taking a ratio, you would get the same result if you took the mean concentration.
Tot=13589.2[I-Hg]_318.8 [MeHg]_920.3[EtHg]_14828.3[Hg]
Mean=3397.3[I-Hg]_79.7[MeHg]_230.1[EtHg]_3707.1[Hg]
So here we have the mean concentrations of the various organs in ηg/g, and the ratio of MeHg to total Hg is identical.
79.7 ÷ 3737.1 = .0215 = 2.15%
@gaist
“No. To prove efficacy, you can’t just look at one study, but to prove something has happened at least once, proof of a single instance will suffice. ”
Huh??
You are a scientific fraud.
And what’s more, clearly an FDA flunky.
I have heard some scientific doublespeak, but that’s one of the best.
As you Americans like to say, “one Swallow doesn’t make a summer.”
Nice goalpost shifting there Peter. You claimed that nobody had provided proof that any vaccine had undergone a Randomised Double Blind Placebo Controlled Trial. I copied and pasted a link gaist provided in the very second comment on this post to show you were lying.
That you had to trawl through the post to find a recommendation “until further studies are done” neither invalidates what I posted, nor makes your lie the truth.
Nice goalpost shifting there Peter. You claimed that nobody had provided proof that any vaccine had undergone a Randomised Double Blind Placebo “Controlled Trial. I copied and pasted a link gaist provided in the very second comment on this post to show you were lying.
That you had to trawl through the post to find a recommendation “until further studies are done” neither invalidates what I posted, nor makes your lie the truth.”
Of course it invalidates, are you totally clueless and deluded?
Unfortunately there’s no vaccine for that.
Are you the real Gary Johnson??
Evasion duly noted. Evidence is there that randomized double blind placebo-controlled trials have been done. Despite your claims.
You can gish gallop and wring your hands all you want, doesn’t change the facts.
But it’s nice of you to keep demonstrating just how pitiably dishonest your
tacticsantics are.Not to mention that this is comparing apples and oranges anyway (study results vs study design).
You also seem to think that any word of caution or criticism about vaccines will make our heads explode, or something. Your quote is not even about a RDBPCT ; it was quality control that found PCV1.
[Edit]
79.7 ÷ 3707.1 = .0215 = 2.15%
So any study of naturopathic treatents that contains the words “more studies are needed” or words to that effect are invalid?
Peter Harris: “Huh??”
What’s the confusion two degrees boy? In fact, let’s throw it up to the lurkers, anybody out there confused by Gaist’s statement?
Was it:
A) The idea of needing more than one study to judge if something works?
B) The idea of when someone says something doesn’t exist and you show him even one proof that it does, that means that something exists and makes that person wrong?
In 1971, rats monkeys were injected with radioactive ethylmercury and autoradiographs were taken of sagittal sections. You can view these disturbing autoradiographs here: ☢
I’ll help you out, Peter Harris. Your confusion has moved me to pity.
I’ll hereby claim that there is no accredited Naturopathic school that requires degrees in chemistry and biology for enrollment.
Now you only have to link to one that does, and my claim to the contrary is demonstrably false.
I’ll be reasonable and not demand ten or more studies demonstrating the existence of such an institution.
@ Jay,gaist.
To the no Degrees people here such as yourselves, I don’t have time for this argument on semantics, because it’s the weekend here, so I got better things to do.
You, and your fellow Sorrusians can have the last word, because I know you want to, because you don’t have much else in life, other than to behave like Supreme flunkys on a “scientific” blog.
Until next time.
He’s flouncing. 🙂
Hopefully it sticks.
After expelling reams of copy over many days, it’s always amusing that they suddenly find better things to do.
Mr. Harris is a frog living in a well who just got a good look at the ocean.
To clarify: Mr. Harris spent all his life in circles where people were impressed by his slick talk. He could substitute confidence for procedure and evidence. He could talk up credentials that didn’t exist. He could use words without bothering to learn what they mean.
Then he came here, where people actually present evidence and ask questions of him.
Y’know, simply pointing out the Salk field trials is usually simplest in such cases.
Everything I Ever Needed to Know I Learned from the Professor on Gilligan’s Island:
-Don’t be concerned with appearances. Wear the same thing every day if you want, as long as it’s comfortable.
-Sometimes, Gilligan’s ideas aren’t as crazy as they sound.
-Take an interest in the arts. Be the MC for a talent show, or direct a musical (but leave the singing for those who can)
-Sometimes, it helps to know a little about obscure things, like bat anatomy.
-Don’t dwell with what you don’t have, but deal with the supplies that you DO have. If a coconut radio is what you can make, then a coconut radio is what you get.
-“Kissing on the mouth is far from sanitary. It can lead to all sorts of bacterial transfer.”
-Voodoo is nothing but native superstition, and the sharp pain in your back and your burning feet are merely coincidence.
-Always be aware of your surroundings, but be cautious. You never know if the island is really sinking, or if someone is just moving your measuring stick.
-Two words: Acetylsalicylic Acid
-Don’t overstate your position. No one will believe you when you tell them there are no such things as zombies if you’ve just spent two weeks standing in a rainstorm while in a trance.
Sorry to interrupt this really great discussion (not), but I just wanted to put in a good word for The Professor from Gilligan’s Island. One of my favorite guys of all time, and a large reason why I am a scientist, and an even bigger reason why I am a Professor (a real one, not just on TMR). In fact, I consider it an honor to be able to share that title with him.
Oh, and Russell Johnson was an awesome guy, too, and the perfect guy to play The Professor.
Mr. Harris starts off a post with: “Another day, and more deflections and hypocrisy.”
Nobody here is interested in entries in your Day Runner.
“So I’m making the “The Harris rule.”
If you want to ask a question of me, about anything whatsoever, you need to state your professional background (if there is one).””
I did that, but you have not yet answered a single one of my questions.
So,once again I ask you, where did you get your biology and chemistry degrees you claim, and what did your naturopathy education and training consist of?
Did you go through any supervised hands-on training?
What do you believe the actual physical, chemical, and biological processes that make homeopathy (which you admit to sometimes using) effective are? What do you believe a bible or a leather strap adds to a homeopathic remedy? How do you determine the proper dose of a homeopathic or other naturopathic remedy and how do you know when you’ve exceeded it. and what do you do if you have? Do you keep resuscitation equipment in your office, and if so, what? Do you have any training at all in dealing with non-medical, i.e. surgical, or psychiatric, emergencies?
I could go on, but I’ll wait for your replies. Meanwhile, I’m getting periodic weather reports from Hell.
@ Jay.
OP.
Gray Sparrow.
Old Rockin’ Dave.
I see that the misanthropes, and rock spiders, are still persisting with their delusion, and deflections away from the argument itself.
I guess when you have an epic fail, deflections, are all that you’ve got left.
I stated Friday night, my time;
“…can have the last word, because I know you want to, because you don’t have much else in life, other than to behave like Supreme flunkys on a “scientific” blog.”
And what did you do?
You’re not the sharpest tools in the shed are you.
I think it’s time for Bugs again.
But let me introduce you to an Australian saying;
http://www.slang-dictionary.org/The-Phrase-Finder/Come_in,_spinner
As for Gray Sparrow, you seem to get your knickers in a knot, when you believe I’ve made a mispronunciation.
I’ve noted that you didn’t admonish elitesquirrel, for mixing up Potentisation with potentiation.
@Dangerous Bacon
It’s the footy finals here, and even though I don’t barrack for either team, I never miss a match between Hawthorn and Geelong, who have a modern rivalry.
I’m guessing you don’t understand AFL, but even you can tell from the final score, I was justified in leaving the forum that night for better things.
http://www.afl.com.au/match-centre/2016/24/geel-v-haw
@gaist.
I’m a little confused.
I looked at the studies in the link you sent me, and I’m still none the wiser.
Are they true placebo controlled studies?
I mean, looking at both sides of the argument, the anti-Vaxxers, and the pro vaccination lobby, agree (at times) that it is unethical to conduct RDBPC studies into vaccines.
“The latest such “argument” is that the safety and efficacy of vaccines have never been proven because they have not been subjected to a controlled randomized double blind study against a placebo.”
“…Unfortunately, they don’t know enough to realize that controlled randomized double blind studies are unethical in certain circumstances, including the testing of vaccines.”
Those 2 quotes were taken from this website, which criticises the anti-vaxxers, and supports the argument that it is unethical to conduct such studies into vaccines.
http://www.skepticalob.com/2009/10/latest-argument-of-vaccine.html
I even have a page here from your guru, David Gorski.
“…there have been calls from the anti-vaccine movement for experimental studies, which, of course, would be highly unethical because they would leave large numbers of children completely unvaccinated and thus vulnerable to vaccine-preventable diseases.”
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-perils-and-pitfalls-of-doing-a-vaccinated-versus-unvaccinated-study/
Now some of the anti-vaccine websites claim that;
“What the pharmaceutical company should have done is inject one group with the vaccine and the other group with a non-vaccine placebo (i.e., saline). What the pharmaceutical company did, instead, was inject one group with the hepatitis B vaccine, and the other group with a different vaccine.”
https://vactruth.com/2013/09/26/how-pharmaceutical-hide-dangers/
So looking at this argument objectively about RDBPC, and vaccines, I’m still not convinced of the science, and studies, that you present as evidence to the question as to whether vaccines are subjected to RDBPC studies.
So I have two questions for you.
1. Do all the studies that you rely on, use a true placebo, such as a saline solution?
2. And is there a RDBPC study (safety and efficacy) into the vaccine in question, the MMR vaccine?? I am more concerned about the safety regarding my 2nd question.
So no links to naturopath courses requiring two degrees then?
“Talking” with Peter Harris:
Wrong
You know, I’m really feeling hurt and left out. Peter Harris keeps asking for credentials, I’ve listed mine, and he keeps ignoring my existence. I guess, like the links showing RDBPC, I don’t exist to him or his “Harris Rule”. Because trolls can’t accept being wrong.
ORD: how did you get PH to notice you but ignore your credentials? I’m guessing because you are male? I sense a great deal of misogyny in our friend Peter, since he seems to respond to the male (or those he believes are male) commenters much more than the female.
But then, since women probably make more of his “marks” than men, I’m sure Peter doesn’t want to deal with intelligent women who don’t believe in his pseudomedicine.
Yes, yes you are. And no, no you aren’t. Respectively.
I have more than two questions for you, but you have yet to answer any of them.
If you can’t figure out what each study used as a placebo when you are reading the studies, I don’t see how me copy-pasteing the choice bits would have any better results…
You have the links you asked for – you check them out.
Suffering from memory problems, I see.
As for your confusion about the ethics of RDBPC trials, II’ll let you read a couple and see if you can spot a pattern there.
If you can’t figure it out – then I’ll help explain it.
The underlying notion fails pragmatically without any need to bring ethics to bear.
@gaist.
“Yes, yes you are. And no, no you aren’t. Respectively.”
Of course my confusion is brought about, in large part, by the flip-flopping, and contradictory comments by the pro-vaccination lobby, on this forum.
“If you can’t figure out what each study used as a placebo when you are reading the studies, I don’t see how me copy-pasteing the choice bits would have any better results…”
It’s a legitimate question, seeing as though, in what I presented to you, from the pro-vaccination lobby, that it would be wrong and unethical to use a true placebo in vaccination studies.
“Suffering from memory problems, I see.”
You can’t accuse me of memory loss, when I do not take any notice of the hubris, and histrionic nonsense from yourself and other forum commentators, in the 1st place.
My previous questions were in good faith, and I expected a reply in kind.
So I will attempt to ask one more time.
1. Do all studies, into the safety and efficacy of vaccines, use a saline solution type placebo?
2. And are there any (RDBPC) safety and efficacy studies into the MRR vaccine?
Just a simple yes or no to those 2 questions, without any divergence, non sequiturs and other nonsense.
If the answers to my 2 questions are yes, then please provide the evidence.
It’s like the Australian Lowell Hubbs.
Having a degree in chemistry myself, I have to wonder:
How does someone with a chemistry degree manage to sit through several courses in homeopathy without getting kicked out for asking disruptive questions? The law of similars could be considered plausible by people who haven’t thought about it too much, but the law of infinitessimals? Making a solution more dilute makes it stronger? How could someone with a chemistry degree reconcile that with everything one had already learned?
I mean, once one figures out what 12C meant in terms of number of molecules of active substance per liter of remedy, how does one take anything seriously?
And then there’s succussion – how is that better than a stir bar? What does it do that plain old shaking doesn’t?
What happened when they explained how the remedy worked better when (statistically) it contained no active substance? How about when they talk about remedies like Oscillococcinum, a 200Ck preparation of duck liver believed to cure the flu because it doesn’t contain a microorganism which someone once thought it might which would generate flu-like symptoms?
This is, of course, a serious question.
I seriously doubt that, and for what it’s worth, so were my previous questions too (at least the non-rhetorical ones) – none of which you’ve answered except with vague evasions, vapid accusations and unimaginative insults.
Given your conduct on this thread, there is no reason for me to expect you’d even acknowledge, let alone accept any answer I’d give.
Ever heard of Quid pro quo? Or you reap what you sow? What I type next is to help you.
That is possibly, probably, the stupidest question I’ve seen any anti-vaxxer ask, and that’s saying a lot. Your first try was almost as bad, but I hoped you would figure out why if you opened even one or two of those links I gave you. But no, your new version is even more imbecilic. Sorry, I’m being as polite as I can in the face of such idiocy. All I can tell you is to stop using the word all if you can’t do it without revealing the extent of your ignorance – as you’ve done here, time and time again.
And I’ve given you links to over 1500 studies. To help you figure out the answer you’ve already been given, even answered it yourself, in the very first comment and numerous times since, I’ll just point out how there are valid study designs able to provide quality scientific data without involving any placebos.
You’ve been handed more than 1500 studies. Even if a portion of those studies are keyword mis-hits, you still have far more than the “at least 10” you demanded. In fact, even if 99% of the studies were mis-hits, you’d still have more than you asked for. You asked, I delivered. Deal with it.
Again, already answered on this thread, not to mention the answer being easily found online. Rather than see what kind of inane gotcha-moment you erroneously thought my answer would entitle you to, I’ll let you demonstrate your in good faith.
“Again, already answered on this thread”
Really?
Hmm.
Ok, so where are those links to my 2 specific answers?
And once again: Peter! I’m over here! Yoohoo! Person with the credentials you were looking for! Are you afraid of intelligent women, or what?
Meh, I guess I should give up. If he can’t understand how to use google to search for RDBPC, and can’t figure out how to read a study to see what was used for placebo, I’ll just say I’m glad he’s not in the USA. Our Not-a-Docs are bad enough with their ignorance and stupidity; he almost supersedes them all (though “Dr” Tenpenny is way up there. Yes, I know she’s a DO. But I think she’s shown that she does not deserve to be called doctor with the respect that title deserves, just like the NDs who claim they are doctors).
I asked my question in good faith too and you can see how much information that elicited.
“Again, already answered on this thread”
Really?
Hmm.
Ok, so where are those links to my 2 specific answers?
You forgot the magic word.
As evidenced by you replying to the comment in question?
One thing is clear, to all objective observers here, is that, there is very little serious discussion around the dangers of vaccines, but mountains of hypocritical drivel.
“none of which you’ve answered except with vague evasions, vapid accusations and unimaginative insults.”
You have the gall to accuse me of that? That’s your modus operandi in response to many here you disagree with over the time you’ve commented on this site.
You like to humiliate and belittle people with sanctimonious clap-trap, anyone who dare disagree with your subjective nonsense.
I didn’t read anywhere, on this thread, where you admonished the other commentator for calling me a c@&t.
“That is possibly, probably, the stupidest question I’ve seen any anti-vaxxer ask, and that’s saying a lot.”
As I thought, you would just ratchet up the rhetoric and insults, in order to avoid my 2 questions.
“I’ll just point out how there are valid study designs able to provide quality scientific data without involving any placebos.”
Quite clearly, you have absolutely no understanding of protocols, in evaluating the veracity of medical studies.
I’m after the so-called “gold standard,” of medical studies regarding vaccines, specifically the MMR.
But all I got was what I expected, a whole bunch of bile, purely designed to avoid answering my 2 questions.
Imagine if you had asked me about providing appropriate scientific proof into the safety and efficacy of complimentary/alternative medicines, and I said to you; “I’ll just point out how there are valid study designs able to provide quality scientific data without involving any placebos.”
Undoubtedly, you’d be screaming at me, GOLD standard! And RDBPC!
Seeing as though you have trouble operating your corpus callosum, I’ll be very clear this time.
I DO NOT consider any study, that does not include a saline/sugar placebo, as valid proof of a positive outcome in medical studies.
Just like running experiments in astrophysics, that doesn’t include E=mc2.
But as i keep stating, mindless hypocrisy is the gold standard here.
“Rather than see what kind of inane gotcha-moment you erroneously thought my answer would entitle you to…”
Again, more hypocritical divergence. The other forums I’ve read when you make comments, is that’s exactly how you try and trap people yourself.
Yes “quid pro quo.”
But this is the best the all, which highlights the juvenile, and infantile intelligence of you and others here.
“You forgot the magic word.”
It reminds me of my primary school days.
If you care to read what I said in my 1st question, I prefaced it with the word, please.
But hey, you’ll continue to squirm and squeal, dip and dodge, and generally just spout off more, what we call in Australia, piss and wind, just to avoid answering my 2 questions.
So knock yourself out, and continued to make yourself look, “vapid”.
I can’t believe that I live on the same island as this guy!
I for one would be happy to have a discussion of the risks of vaccination in relation to the risks of the actual diseases they prevent. Which vaccines cause more death, injury, deafness, paralysis and so on than the corresponding diseases would in the absence of those vaccines? What specific sequelae* are they? How do you know?
* New word for me, trying it out.
Just like I haven’t admonished you or anybody else here for giving others affectionate pet names like bedwetter, dribbler and turd. Because I don’t mind it, and assume those that do will object to it themselves. What I have complained to you is using insults in lieu of a honest answer.
But now I know the word bothers you. Next time someone calls you that I will protest and advice they use bedwetter, drippler, ugly, hypocrite, imbecile, American or turd instead.
In fact, if it helps ease the hurt and the indignity, you can call me a cu/i>n
t, or whatever other term of endearment you wish, every time you give a serious answer to a question, or link to a study somebody asked you for. I’ve heard good things about Ozzie skills of vituperation. Looking forward to improving my vocabulary.Happy?
I can’t help if you insist on continuing your temper tantrum because I, among others, gave you more detailed answers than monosyllabic grunts you crave for. The questions have been answered, repeatedly, in all their iterations.
So true. Couldn’t have put it any better than that myself. Won’t say anything more, trying to be polite and all.
…But you might want to check that one with your mates, mate. After all, many anti-vaxxers might be a smidge incensed if they realized their vaccine whistleplower-show, or Andy’s “original dozen” were summarily dismissed by their own.
That’s obvious. What isn’t obvious is why you didn’t ask that?. Instead, you asked Do all studies, into the safety and efficacy of vaccines, use a saline solution type placebo? . That’s the same thing you did at the beginning. You claimed there’s never ever been any RDBPC on any vaccines. . I answered in the very next comment. That you, not liking the answer, changed the question and begun whining when others didn’t go along, is not my fault. It is also not my fault that you seem to have difficulty admitting this.
Already answered, in more detail than you asked for. The fact that you can’t muster the courage to face MI Dawn is not my fault.
You must mistake me for someone like you – I’ve never, unlike you, dismissed a study based on just the study design. As you’re tracing my online existence, you’ll eventually find several threads where I discuss at length several studies of alternative medicine that did not involve placebos of any sort. I am not as dogmatic as you – I’m willing to look at other kinds of naturopathic studies, because I can recognise their value as individual pieces in the vast, collective body of evidence.
Now that you have my promise not to dismiss them in writing, there’s no reason for you not to post the studies I already recommended you post – namely of the treatments you used to treat the patient with back pain you mentioned earlier. I’m not picky, you can even link some of your reject studies – you know, ones without saline/sugar placebos. But any study you relied for the treatments used will suffice. I’m sure you have many, you wouldn’t peddle therapies without evidence. Why not share??
Can you post the comment number, even searching the word please on the page seems to have trouble finding it (you did say If the answers to my 2 questions are yes, then please provide the evidence. , but that doesn’t really fit, and it seems to be the only mention of the word please, by you, except for telling you prefaced your first question with it.
But yes, I should have chosen my words with more care. I expected it was obvious the line was reference to me requiring you to start answering, (you know, the quid pro quo bit?), rather than continue grumbling and whining because you wanted a shorter answer. I see now I shouldn’t have expected as much from you.
You really don’t want to expand the range of things you don’t understand but are willing to jabber incoherently (and ungrammatically) about.
@ gaist.
You are becoming part of my routine.
When I wake up in the morning, I grab my phone, and check what the financial markets did over overnight, and now I check to see the latest evasive flim-flam from yourself.
But I’m sorry to disappoint you.
You went to all that trouble, thinking of how many ways I can avoid answering the question again, but I didn’t read it.
I just quickly scroll down to see if you had left any links, or answers to my 2 questions I keep putting to you.
This is becoming quite a masterful, and an enduring attempt at avoidance.
I have already bookmarked this thread, to use as a future reference, as to how far the grossly hypocritical allopathic dribblers, will go to avoid scrutiny, in regards to conventional medicine.
It’s getting fantastic, don’t you think??
And I see you’ve recruited one of the Nuff-nuffs, Narad, to help you out with your epic evasion.
But hey, I’m a patient man.
I’ll check in again tomorrow morning, Melbourne time, to see how much time you’re wasting, in avoiding 2 simple questions.
Good morning, sunshine.
When you share the link, make sure you preface your expose with you “My name is Peter Harris and I DO NOT consider any study, that does not include a saline/sugar placebo, as valid proof of a positive outcome in medical studies.” That’ll learn us.
I think mr harris is trying to do the same as this trial:
Row over clinical trial as 254 Indian women die
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Row-over-clinical-trial-as-254-Indian-women-die/articleshow/34016785.cms
As mr harris doesn’t read links, I’ll quote a few pertinent bits:
“Even Indian Council of Medical Research (ICMR) guidelines stipulate that a placebo can be used only if the disease is self-limiting or when no proven preventive, diagnostic or therapeutic method exists”
“”…people should not be used to demonstrate exactly how much death results from lack of medical care,” stated Dr Suba”
Oh, I see.
That’s a new tactic.
Conflating different things I said, to try and form some statement, in order to justify more of your avoidance, and deflect away your epic failures.
Possibly, it might make sense, if not for your terrible grammar.
Anyway, no doubt you’ll come up with some other inventive way to avoid 2 simple questions, which no doubt i’ll read in the morning.
I posted this to the wrong thread.
There are two good reasons why we don’t compare every new vaccine to saline placebos:
1) Consider watching an ad for an expensive new floor-cleaning product. Your response is likely to be “Why can’t I just use a mop?” When testing something for which an established tool exists, you want to see which one actually works better in comparison.
2) Consider the development of a newer, lighter but stronger parachute. Would you test it with someone falling out of a plane against a backpack weighted like a parachute?
I’m not expecting Mr. Harris to read and understand this. I’m not expecting Mr. Harris to read or understand anything more complicated than “I ate chicken for lunch!”
Why does Peter Harris keep accusing others of atrocious grammar? The grammar appears fine to me.
Harris, what specific rules of grammar are being broken?
So, you really don’t know what tautology is huh.
Of course you don’t.
Actually, Peter, I do.
An accusation can be an insult, but isn’t always. Therefore, it was not a tautology for me to write “just more insults, and accusations of hypocrisy”, despite what you think. So, comprehension fail on your part.
So convenient isn’t, not to republish your full quote.
Okay then, go through my comment and show me where the tautology is.
Just because I’m tired of this charade:
No.
Some studies compare different vaccine combinations, e.g. one group is injected with MMR, the other group with MMR and flu vaccines.
Yes.
Here is one from 1975.
Here is another one from 1975 as well, full article available for free.
Took me 10 min on the NCBI Pubmed website, looking for “MMR vaccine placebo “. People can go looking for more by themselves.
Days just fly by in Melbourne, don’t they.
Possibly, it might make sense, if not for your terrible grammar.
Vaccines for measles, mumps and rubella in children
@Rafaela Gonzalez- Should we eliminate all cars because of the Pinto?
Well, Rafaela, then there is no problem. Neither of those mumps vaccines strains have ever been used in an American MMR vaccine. The Jeryl Lynn mumps vaccine strain has been used in the American MMR vaccine since 1971.
It is now the mumps vaccine strain used in the UK. Oh, and here is some relevant reading:
MEDICINES CONTROL AGENCY TO OBJECT TO IMPORTATION OF UNLICENSED SINGLE URABE STRAIN MUMPS VACCINE
Now, Ms. Gozalez, please post the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that the present American MMR vaccine causes more meningitis than actually getting mumps. Because it is all about relative risk, and since mumps is presently circulating in certain American communities there is a real danger someone will get permanently injured by the actual disease.
@Peter Harris
Ref comments 29, 91, 135
Please, pretty please, with a nice big sugar pill?
The formulation I referred to was liquid in a nodule, and didn’t have the sugar pill.
My medical background consists of being raised by an RN who actually treated a diphtheria case and was glad it was the only one. How many have your treated? I also had a course in Health Physics (radiation effects) as part of earning a MS in Nuclear Effects. I also got the First Aid merit badge as a Boy Scout.
No Mr. Falcon. Automotive engineers as well as vaccine engineers should be more concerned about safety.
Where is the Volvo is vaccine engineering? Why not produce safer vaccines?
Ms. Gonzalez: Vaccine manufacturers are concerned with safety. The vaccines in the article you posted were taken off the market because of the risks involved. One cannot eliminate risk, only minimize it.
“Why not produce safer vaccines?”
What level of safety would satisfy you? If it’s “zero side effects”, then we must discard vaccines and every other medical intervention.
On the other hand, if you have a reasonable, concrete proposal for making vaccines even safer than they already are, that would be worthy of discussion.
And I shouldn’t just type things up without looking up word definitions.
Potentization is
while potentiation is an important medical effect where 2 medicine have a synergistic effect.
I’ll offer Ben Goldacre’s discussion since it also discussed randomized double blinded controlled trials.
I know I’ve seen a more amusing demonstration on YouTube, but couldn’t find it today.
https://youtu.be/TZiLsFaEzog
@Dangerous Bacon
How about fully replacing thimerosal with phenoxyalcohol, and aluminum hydroxide with calcium phosphate.
Why not just eliminate the neurotoxins in vaccines?
Rafaela: Thimerosal is only used in the multi-dose vials of the flu vaccines. Anyone can ask to get a flu shot without it. Most people are never offered a flu shot from a multi-dose vial.
What studies show that phenxyalcohol is equally effective as a preservative?
@Justatech
What studies show the converse?
Preservative of choice for Prev(e)nar 13™ in a multi-dose formulation.
This is pretty pathetic, Travis.
OK then.
Oh Hai Fendlesworth again. Pathetic indeed.
I’m not so sure, but time will tell. Fendelsworth always gives himself away. Always.
Oh, who am I fooling? It’s almost certainly Fendelsworth and thus the ban hammer comes down.
Why not just eliminate the neurotoxins in vaccines?
Why not just adopt one nym and present arguments in good faith instead of popping up new sockpuppets all the time like a skeavy little sh1tweasel?
“Like”? I actually skimmed the paper for which he provided a truncated abstract selection above (the final four words are “for this vaccine formulation,” BTW); it’s much more complicated than he’d like, and I didn’t notice a cost–benefit analysis – but again, I skimmed.
This jizzrag, however, has not only patheticly decided to try to appropriate my pseudonym at AoA, but when greeted with indifference,* sank to trying this this.
It’s as though he doesn’t actually understand that yes, Virginia, there are killfiles. Any discussion of anything on the merits has long since been foreclosed.
* Hint, fuckwit: verification of the actual credential pair is trivial.
^ “pathetically,” and the extra “this” I presume to be obvious.
What, no gaist this morning??
No mumbo-jumbo, designed to deflect away from answering 2 simple questions?
Well, apart from some feeble attempt at engaging in a discussion about grammar, after misappropriating something I said out of context,
I’ll avoid that one of course, I don’t want to give gaist another opportunity to circumvent the discussion, and avoiding answering my questions.
So I guess the answer to my 2 simple questions, is NO and NO.
It would have been easier to admit that those studies do not exist in the 1st place, but hey, pride in such a stubborn beast.
If at first you don’t succeed…
You missed me?
Hah, I missed that one.
Note to Peter Harris: *plonk*
@ Peter Harris
Read again. It’s No and Yes.
A number of people, me included (#202 on the previous page), answered you, with multiple citations.
For someone who talks big about avoidance…
You are one to tell.
Au revoir, Pierre.
————————————-
Australia is such a weird place. So many venomous beasts. Spiders, snakes, lizards, mammals. Even naturopaths.
I guess the answer to my one simple questions is DIIK.
Setting the bar.
I thought it was worth engaging with RG, since ‘she’ asserted that there was a scientific controversy about vaccines causing autism.
There will probably always be controversy, but a true scientific controversy will need evidence comparable to this study, not just the sort of “yes, but I’m still worried about maybe this mechanism causing some unverified harm” studies that keep getting posted again and again.
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/vaccines-still-not-linked-to-autism/
@ gaist
“September 16, 2016
This jizzrag, however, has not only patheticly decided to try to appropriate my pseudonym at AoA, but when greeted with indifference,* sank to trying this this.
If at first you don’t succeed…”
Well that is a new tactic.
Incoherent rambling.
And that link?
I had no part in that discussion.
But no doubt, gaist will have some new inventive way, in which to avoid 2 simple questions, when she/he/it sees this post.
Given that it had nothing to do with you in the first place, the question is why the fυck you’re bitching about it.
Oh, wait: you can’t fυcking read.
@Narad
“Given that it had nothing to do with you in the first place, the question is why the fυck you’re bitching about it.”
Because gaist left it for me, in yet another diversionary tactic.
So who cannot read?
Don’t worry Narad, they are working on a vaxx for Pathological Embitterment Disorder.
That is just sad.
And this was for Peter Harris, unlike #18.
G-ddamn my lack of short-term willpower. If I hadn’t seen this, I just might have entertained the notion that the scale could tip ever so slightly toward brilliant, mamesh trolling, but confusion over the descriptions next to radio boxes has sent that ball out of the yard.
Peter Harris, I don’t know how to say this politely …
Man you are a dill.
<lilady>
Don’t mention dill!
</lilady>
I’m reminded of the nature of “a while.”
This dude would make the Total Perspective Vortex explode.
Also, he is wearing Zaphod’s Peril Sensitive Sunglasses.
No, I’m just saying you need to spot the answers you’ve been given.
Oh, so you found it. ha ha.
So now you need to find me some answers.
It can’t be that hard, seeing as though you have demonstrated your Internet skills.
[…] https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2016/08/31/in-which-a-professor-who-isnt-talks-science-about-vacci… […]
https://youtu.be/SGD69Q9rz3M
Didn’t realise it was lost.
Didn’t realise you can’t read.
I see.
Now you claim you had sent me some answers, and I failed to read them?
Is that correct?
Well, I am afraid that, feigning alzheimer’s doesn’t work, and I can see through your endless attempts at avoiding answering 2 simple questions.
However, if you are developing alzheimer’s, then don’t despair, they are developing a vaccine for that too.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-13/dementia-vaccine-may-be-years-away-flinders-uni-professor-says/7623574
You did.
For atypical definition of now (but I’m willing to accept you only now picking up on it) and for you plural, yes. Still.
Peter Harris, I summarized my credentials; you still have not shown yours. I asked you a number of specific questions that you still have not answered. Every time you are challenged you respond with Trumpery instead of taking the challenge.
Now, how would you treat any of the conditions you have been asked about? How would you use all your science degrees to explain how your remedies work down in the cells and tissues of your patients? What are your qualifications to attempt to treat live beings of any species? And just what does the bible or leather strap do to increase the potency of the homeopathic alleged remedies you confess to using?
Based on what you have shown us so far, I believe you to be a peddler of nostrums, a fraudster, a coward, and an obvious shill for Big Quackery. Prove me wrong, if you have the guts to do so, and show some actual proof.
Old Rockin’ Dave: “I asked you a number of specific questions that you still have not answered.”
Peter Harris: [SFX: crickets]
@Old Rocking Dave,
Peter Harris seems to have gone quiet for a couple days.
Maybe it’s the weekend or maybe he’s in moderation and doesn’t get the satisfaction of dropping non-replies on a dozen comments at once.
Yeah. it’s always a little disappointing when an antivaxxer does this:
Orac, I wonder if it’s possible for you to cut out the various overt and veiled insults in your writing, or are we to believe that this style of writing is civil and scientific? Why spend so much of your time on what are essentially fallacious ad hominem arguments attacking the (supposed) character of the person rather than the actual arguments? This leads me to believe that you can’t defend your arguments except by using ad hominem attacks to divert attention from your own failure to address the science accurately and honestly.
Don – I wonder if it’s possible for you to be specific about which statements Orac made which you find to be objectionable? We would all benefit from that.
Tone troll is trollin’
Yeah, I’d also like to know what “failure to address the science accurately and honestly” and “essentially fallacious ad hominem arguments” mean – other than Don being butthurt when antivax silliness gets shredded.
Orac: “This leads Professor TMR to do what antivaccinationists do so well, play the victim”
Don is apparently good at this too.
Reply to #45:
Orac spends a great deal of time saying why we shouldn’t trust TMR rather than tackling any of the arguments that are put forward by vaccinepapers via TMR. Perhaps Orac can explain how IL-6, a cytokine activated by immune response, does NOT cause autism. I don’t suppose he can, or would, attempt to do this, so the next question is why should we NOT believe that an inflammatory response during infancy or pregnancy CANNOT cause a spike in IL-6 and hence damage to Purkinje cells, which damage is characteristic of autistics? It is reasonable to believe that this is a valid mechanism that leads to autism. Why, then if vaccines are designed to evoke an immune response, would vaccines not be implicated in initiating such a mechanism? Lastly, is it at all possible for Orac, or anyone, to respond to the actual argument without resorting to ad hominem attacks?
OK, I made a mistake. The correct wording of #48 is: “why should we NOT believe that an inflammatory response during infancy or pregnancy can cause a spike in IL-6 and ….”
Merely looking at TMR is enough to reveal that most of the content doesn’t even fall into a domain in which “trustworthiness” is an applicable concept.
If you just want to wage war for Vaper Papers, why choose TMR as a proxy ground? Make your own damned case.
Orac can explain how IL-6, a cytokine activated by immune response, does NOT cause autism
So you’ve pulled some
theorytheory-shaped hairball out of your arse and you expect everyone to drop what they’re doing and explain why you don’t even reach the level of being wrong?Allow me to suggest that you hold your breath while you wait.
I know it’s Psychology Today, but does anyone have any idea why “The Athlete’s Way®” has been babbling in this vein?
“Perhaps Orac can explain how IL-6, a cytokine activated by immune response, does NOT cause autism”
Could you explain which ingredient in vaccines you have an issue with here? Is it actual vaccines, then we would have seen huge spikes in Autism during the 1950’s. Mercury and/ or Aluminium, again the data does not show this.
There is also no mention of genetics in your theory, a proven factor in Autism.
@Don:
That’s not how it works. You posit a hypothesis, YOU stump up the evidence. It is up to you to prove your hypothesis, not up to Orac to disprove it.
Once again, you need to show that this is the case.
Is it? Supporting evidence needed.
Again, you are trying to get us to disprove a negative. You have to show evidence that this is happening.
No: Orac has challenged the theory put forward by vaccinepapers. It is up to Orac to provide evidence that the theory is incorrect.
@ Jay: there is a proven mechanism in autism that is NOT genetic, and that is immune activation. The “ingredient,” then, would be immune activation.
Logic is one of the foundations of science. Please refrain from insults, if you can, and stick to the arguments.
” n. The “ingredient,” then, would be immune activation”
Here endeth your argument, where was the Massive Autism spike during the Polio vaccination drive of the 50’s?
Don, a few of the comentators here say they have posted reasonable arguments on vaccinepapers.org only to have their comments deleted, because they didn’t suit the site owner.
The site owner has also left some unanswered questions behind on this thread.
That isn’t honest behaviour and I can see why it is met with insolence.
Vaccinepapers has provided compelling evidence that the cytokine IL-6 by itself, with no genetics involved, causes autism. Therefore, if you disagree with this, you must present scientific evidence why HIS SPECIFIC THEORY (and not something else you want to argue) is wrong.
Don:
What evidence is there that damage to Purkinje cells is the mechanism by which autism is produced?
What evidence supports the idea that immune stimulation causes such damage?
How do you know that IL-6 is the offending molecule?
What convinces you that vaccination elevates IL-6 concentrations to a pathologic level?
Is there something special about vaccines that would cause a deleterious increase in IL-6, while everyday infections (and vaccine-preventable diseases) do not?
Show me research that satisfactorily answers these questions (for starters) and we can have a reasonable discussion. It is up to you to providence evidence that your theory is correct.
This is how you get a theory accepted in the real world.
“Prove me wrong!” is not how science works.
You have several choices. You can ignore me, you can insult me, you can argue against something else, but none of this is what I’m asking. You’ll excuse me for thinking that “scienceblogs” means that this blog is about science. If so, then Orac, who implied that he could deconstruct vaccinepapers, should do that very thing and provide evidence to back up his claim that the theory of immune activation is wrong. I’m assuming that he already did this before he began his attack, so it should be easy unless he based his charges on assumptions and insults.
@ Dangerous Bacon all of your questions have been answered on the vaccinepapers website. Your job is to refute this. Your point is that vaccinepapers is full of it; it’s up to YOU to prove it.
Don, you argue that immune activation causes a release of IL-6 which causes autism.
If this is true, how is it that everyone does not have autism? By your statement, any time the immune system is activated, IL-6 is released. IL-6 then, you claim) causes damage that causes autism.
But everyone experiences immune activation! Every pregnancy has some kind of event to which the immune system responds (like a cold). Every infant has an immune system response, because part of being born is being exposed to new bacteria, viruses and other pathogens to which the immune system responds.
Therefore IL-6 alone cannot be the only factor in causing autism.
Sorry Don, but this is not “the vaccinepapers website”, nor am I or anyone else obligated to refute what it claims. The following statement regarding the scientific method should clarify for you how the process works:
“Make an observation or observations.
Ask questions about the observations and gather information.
Form a hypothesis — a tentative description of what’s been observed, and make predictions based on that hypothesis.
Test the hypothesis and predictions in an experiment that can be reproduced.
Analyze the data and draw conclusions; accept or reject the hypothesis or modify the hypothesis if necessary.
Reproduce the experiment until there are no discrepancies between observations and theory. “Replication of methods and results is my favorite step in the scientific method,” Moshe Pritsker, a former post-doctoral researcher at Harvard Medical School and CEO of JoVE, told Live Science. “The reproducibility of published experiments is the foundation of science. No reproducibility – no science.””
http://www.livescience.com/20896-science-scientific-method.html
Once upon a time we had a regular poster here whose handle escapes me (it was something self-effacing like Trying To Overcome Ignorance), who was intent on convincing everyone that Inflammatory Cytokines something something Vaccines something something = Autism! (S)he posted lots of excerpts from arcane research (most of it involving cells in test tubes) which was supposed to prove her/his theories if we would only play connect-the-dots along with him/her. Unfortunately it didn’t hang together and her/his facade of super-civility frayed when it became clear that her/his arguments were unconvincing.
At least give us some dots that you think should be connected. All-the-answers-are-on-my-favorite-website doesn’t cut it.
@JustaTech not everyone exposed to Bubonic Plague was symptomatic or died from it. Not everyone exposed to measles dies from it and nutritional level has a great deal to do with it.
IL-6 production depends on severity of inflammation (cytokine surge.) The effect on the child depends on many factors including age, stage of pregnancy, and undoubtedly factors we don’t yet understand.
Neuron loss in cerebellar cortex of rats exposed to mercury vapor: a stereological study.
Protein-Metal Interactions [p477]
I like Vaccine Papers.The best argument against their autism theory is that the Thimerosal autism theory is even better!
@Dangerous Bacon excuse me but I’m not the one who said that TMR and vaccinepapers were junk: Orac did. This being a “science” blog I naturally presume that there is SCIENCE to back that premise up. I myself am making no claims but to ask for evidence. You can choose any number of specific scientific points to refute, as JustaTech was good enough to do.
@Szilard If mercury vapor damages Purkinje cells, then that says absolutely nothing about whether IL-6 also damages Purkinje cells– unless of course the mechanism of mercury damage is through IL-6.
all of your questions have been answered on the vaccinepapers website. Your job is to refute this.
Ah, the “Let’s you and him fight” school of trolling.
Don: “Vaccinepapers has provided compelling evidence that the cytokine IL-6 by itself, with no genetics involved, causes autism.”
Don: “I myself am making no claims but to ask for evidence.”
Yup, no claims at all. Just asking questions. 🙂
What is this evidence that you find so compelling?
herr doktor, this is very, very simple. Orac said the theory of immune activation was junk. I said “prove it.” That means, show me one shred of scientific evidence that refutes the theory as it’s explained on vaccinepapers. Naturally, I’m making some assumptions: I’m assuming that you understand the theory, since you can’t criticize something you don’t understand.
If you don’t have one shred of evidence to refute the theory of how immune activation could cause autism in children, and how that implicates vaccines, then please say so. I don’t want to waste our time.
By the way, Orac has presented evidence to demonstrate why he thinks TMR is a mess. Just do a search using the handy search box at the top right of the page.
Don has indicated he thinks vaccinepapers is wonderful; isn’t he obligated to provide actual scientific evidence as to why that’s the case, instead of just attacking Orac and other posters?
@dangerous bacon, I don’t have to prove anything: you do, that is, if you continue to assert that vaccinepapers is junk. Pick a piece of evidence and refute it.
I’m sure you’re familiar with the difficulties of proving a negative, so what level and type of evidence would you find sufficient? What one shred would you accept? And what would it prove?
@dangerous bacon the evidence is contained in vaccinepapers’ posts, and you need only refute one single argument regarding the theory of immune activation– that is, if this really is a “science” blog.
@gaist you’re not proving a negative; on the contrary, you’re refuting a positive. Much, much easier. You can pick whatever piece of evidence that you feel is faulty, and show how it’s faulty.
I don’t want to waste our time.
Oh how I laughed.
Don @64: You didn’t say that. You said it was IL-6, not that there were other factors involved.
Personally, I would like to know how a cytokine that drives T and B cells growth and differentiation causes autism. Is it through CD126 binding or CD130 binding?
I’m very sorry, I thought this was a science blog based on science and logic, but I see that it’s based on evasions and insults and few of you have much idea of what the theory of immune activation is– at least not enough that you can bring up one reasonable argument against it. JustaTech was the only one to bring any sensible argument forward, and with civilly to boot. I am indeed wasting my time, and now as I sign off you’ll be sure to insult me behind my back. JustaTech: come over to the dark side, my friend! Use your reason and logic: it will lead you true. Don’t fall for these folks who depend on name-calling and insults and think that qualifies as “science.”
JustaTech, I misjudged you?
How IL-6 works is through Purkinje cell damage. We may not know exactly how, but we do know, through experiments, that this is so. Are you perhaps trying to sidetrack and derail the discussion?
Don @78
I note that you didn’t answer his questions.
@JustaTech you can make the same argument for Bubonic Plague: you said it was Yersinia pestis but you lied! There are other factors involved! Of course. We’re complex organisms.
SteveJ reread and you’ll see that I did.
I have to sign off.
Well, there’s this bit that was mentioned way upthread.
No Don, I’m looking up IL-6 here in Janeway’s Immunobiology, 7th edition. The receptors of IL-6 are CD126 and CD130, and IL-6 is produced by T cells, macrophages and endothelial cells. Since you’re taking about part of the brain, I’m guessing that the IL-6 you’re thinking of is produced by endothelial cells, near the Purkinje cells?
And how is a discussion of specifics going to “derail the discussion”?
Don, if you can’t understand the relationship between pathogen and disease (necessary but not sufficient), then I’m really not sure that you are prepared to make points about much more complex conditions.
Justatech I have time for a few more. You’re right: I thought you were trying to derail the discussion but I was wrong. Cytokines such as IL-6 are carried by the blood and can originate anywhere and then be carried to the brain, or they can originate near the brain, but the point is that the “surge: is strong enough to damage Purkinje cells.
The pathogen and disease argument is close to the same as the IL-6 argument: Yestinia pestis is a necessary and sufficient condition for Bubonic Plague BUT the body may still be able to ward it off. “Necessary and sufficient” applies to logic but maybe not so much to biological systems.
To repeat my questions that Don has not yet been willing to address:
What evidence is there that damage to Purkinje cells is the mechanism by which autism is produced?
What evidence supports the idea that immune stimulation causes such damage?
How do you know that IL-6 is the offending molecule?
What convinces you that vaccination elevates IL-6 concentrations to a pathologic level?
Is there something special about vaccines that would cause a deleterious increase in IL-6, while everyday infections (and vaccine-preventable diseases) do not?
If Don has a good argument he should be able to furnish at least some evidence to address these questions, rather than just alleging that it exists and we should go running around to find it.
I suppose we should be grateful that Don has not directed us to an hour-long YouTube video that “has all the answers” (a typical woo-M.O.) 😉
Don @86: You are incorrect. Yersinis pestis is not sufficient to cause plague, bubonic or pnuemonic. To cause disease the immune system must not be able to eliminate the pathogen before the onset of symptoms.
If a person is infected with Yersinis pestis but also posses the delta-32 mutation in the CCR5 receptor, then they are much less likely to develop symptoms.
You don’t seem to understand what “Necessary but not sufficient” means, since you contradict yourself in a single sentence.
I thought this was a science blog based on science and logic, but I see that it’s based on evasions and insults… and now as I sign off you’ll be sure to insult me behind my back.
Don knows both kinds of trollery, passive AND aggressive.
@Dangerous Bacon #87 [I’ll try to answer for Don]
I think that it is a biomarker produced in response to injury or inflammation of some kind.
IL-6 production following vaccination in pigs–an additional immune response parameter for assessing FMD vaccine efficacy?
Yes. Aluminum is present in vaccines. Aluminum has been shown to drastically increase IL-6 levels. Here is a quote from Selective induction of IL-6 by aluminum-induced oxidative stress can be prevented by selenium:
So these authors basically speculate that Aluminum displaces Iron in transferrin thereby leading to uncontrolled red-ox reactions induced by free Iron. This uncontolled oxidative damage increased IL-6. If you examine Table 1, you will see a dramatic increase of IL-6 in the Aluminum group. And I quote:
“We”? Anyway, if Dan Steinberg’s site has educated you so well, why don’t you cough up the citations rather than shilling for his site?
Dangerous Bacon:
What evidence is there that damage to Purkinje cells is the mechanism by which autism is produced?
The “loss of cerebellar Purkinje cells” theory was one possible aetiology for autism, out of many, about a decade ago. It has since fallen out of favour, on account of evidence… except among the mouse-model crowd (because is easy to report on depleting Purkinje-cell populations in mice, even if they can’t actually experience autism),
When someone pops up spouting that “damage to Purkinje cells […] is characteristic of autistics” as an incontrovertible fact, you know that they’re not really
here for the huntingintent on good-faith discussion.Well it is hard to get brain slices of autistic humans, but it has been done in 2005¹. The authors were able to obtain brain samples of autistics who died from accidents, suicides, homicides, ect. What they found were decreased Purkinje cells as well as very high IL-6 levels:
Mercury is know to cause a loss in Purkinje cells, and Aluminum has been shown to increase IL-6. In the Anterior Cingulate Gyrus part of the brain, a 31.6 fold increase of IL-6 [table 5]¹ was measured in the autistic brain. Compare this number with the 30 fold increase in IL-6 in the rat study mentioned earlier.
¹Neuroglial Activation and Neuroinflammation in the Brain of Patients with Autism
So Don’s basic premise is that an inflammatory response, which can be caused by vaccination but also and more strongly by the actual diseases themselves, leads to an increase in IL-2 cells which damages the Purkinje cells (large neurons) leading to the reduced density which is associated in post-mortem studies with autism.
The supporting evidence is a whole bunch of studies on the body’s biochemical mechanisms and a website which, good or bad, is not published scientific research.
But, he has cited no positive confirmation that this process actually happens.
And, it runs contrary to multiple large studies which show no correlation between vaccination and autism.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24814559
So, it’s a hypothetical explanation for an effect that has been shown not to exist.
And it also runs contrary to independent research showing that autism is evident in the first few months of infancy and is related to differences in the structure of the brain which develops during pregnancy.
So, Don, until you can present confirmed evidence of a correlation at a rate of at least 1 in 100,000 which we have seen in several confirmed vaccine adverse effects, you’re only preaching to the anti-vaccine chorus.
Interleukin-2 is not a cell SquirellElite.
IL-2 cells is immunologist’s shorthand for “IL-2 – producing cell”.
Thanks, Helianthus.
I never took a microbiology course, so please forgive me if I fumbled the terminology. That doesn’t change the results of the study I cited.
I wonder why they don’t try to figure out how vaccines might produce an increase in the growth of midi-chlorians in people with the right genetic mutation.
@ squirrelelite
You’re welcome, and I’m not much of an immunologist myself. I have a few colleagues who are, so I’m able to recognize the patois 🙂
#83 NONE of those responses refute that IL-6 damages Purkinje cells and this is implicated in autism, and the Shaw and Tomljenovic comment is an ad homimen attack that fails to address the facts.
#87 once again, YOU, and not me, allege that the IL-6 theory is false and therefore YOU, and not me, need to bring up evidence that backs up your claim
#88 is that the best you can do? Yersinia pestis is necessary for Bubonic Plague but will not cause symptoms in everyone; IL-6 is necessary for Purkinje cell damage but will not cause it in everyone. Again, the “necessary and sufficient ” applies to logic but not so much to biological organisms.
#89 aren’t we done with ad hominem attacks yet, or do you consider this “science”?
#90 thanks
#91 the experiments are clear although the mechanisms may not be. We now now that IL-6 triggers IL-17a which seems to cause the real damage.
#92 Good. Please cite the evidence.
#93 thanks
#94 you know very well the vaccinepapers uses ONLY published peer reviewed research. The experiments cited by vaccinepapers–from extensive published peer-reviewed literature– prove the mechanism exist. Vaccinepapers’ point is that the medical literature is corrupt on the vaccine-autism link, so you can’t assume that it isn’t corrupt to prove vaccinepapers wrong. You must refute the arguments.
#96,96 aren’t we talking about IL-6 and also IL-17a?
OK I made some minor spelling errors but I trust you can work through them.
At least Szilard is making an effort to present something resembling evidence.
However, it seems to be on the level of “X can cause Y, therefore we can infer that Y leads to Z resulting in WQXR”.
Neither of these studies involved vaccination or were looking at autism or autism-like symptoms. The mouse study was supposed to relate to chronic aluminum administration (in a setting where the experimental mice were killed after 16 hours). I was amused by the fact that the pig study abstract discussed foot and mouth disease (a form of which (foot-in-mouth disease) heavily afflicts antivaxers.
Really guys, it is pitifully insufficient to do the Toxin thing and wave one’s hands about Aluminum and Mercury being Bad, without having a relevant model that simulates exposure levels from vaccines, (in the context of what normal environmental exposures to these Toxins are). We would also need relevance to autism incidence.
End result – a lame exercise in connect-the-dots using ghostly and non-existent dots.
IL-6 can cause damage to Purkinje cells by itself; it’s a cytokine activated by an immune response. Damage to Purkinje cells is the closest thing that we have to a biomarker for autism. Experiments with mice and with monkeys show that the mechanism is sound. Case studies show that inflammation of the brain (encephalitis) can (but note, JustaTech, NOT ALWAYS) cause autism. We now understand more about the mechanism for this, and it stands to reason that a brain inflammation triggered by ANYTHING at all will cause a cytokine surge that may be damaging. Does anyone disagree with any of this? I trust not: we know that severe infections may lead to brain damage in some percentage of cases. The mechanism has been outlined as the IL-6 cascade. Why would vaccine adverse reactions be “immune” from triggering this same IL-6 cascade? In fact they are not: vaccines are DESIGNED to provoke an immune response, and in some people that immune response is overwhelming. That is the theory. To take it down you have to take a step and show how it is false.
Logic is one of the foundations of science. Please use it and refrain from insults and ad hominem attacks, if you can.
The reason we don’t allow ad hominem attacks in logic is because if we did, then ANYONE could refute ANY argument by simply making accusations against the speaker’s character. That why we always attack the argument, not the man or what is said about the man.
@Don:
You are the one making the claim. So YOU are the one who must stump up the evidence.
“Seems to” is not good enough.
@Szilard, I looked at several of the links you posted.
Neuron loss in cerebellar cortex of rats exposed to mercury vapor: a stereological study.
Mercury vapour, not thimerosal. Pure mercury in vapour form. Not relevant.
Page 447 of “Protein metal Interactions”: You have either reached a page that is unavailable for viewing or reached your viewing limit for this book.
“IL-6 production following vaccination in pigs–an additional immune response parameter for assessing FMD vaccine efficacy?”
The title ends with a question mark. Also…
“…quantifying the levels of IL-6 in serum could provide additional means of qualifying whether a vaccine will afford clinical protection or not in pigs…”
Could. And it’s in pigs.
“YOU, and not me, allege that the IL-6 theory is false and therefore YOU, and not me, need to bring up evidence that backs up your claim”
OK, Don, how about this…
You think the IL-6 theory is valid, but in order to convince us it is correct, YOU need to bring up the evidence that backs up your claim. Better now?
“Damage to Purkinje cells is the closest thing that we have to a biomarker for autism.”
Nope. Purkinje damage is not a “biomarker”, it supposedly represents the putative pathological damage that occurs with autism. If anything, IL-6 would be a biomarker (but it fails on account it is not specific for autism, being elevated in the face of all manner of immune activation triggers).
To clarify for you, myocardial necrosis is not a “biomarker” for a heart attack. Something like troponin would be though.
And please, why you are explaining why IL-6 is so specific for autism, can you tell us why the IL-6 which is produced by other inflammatory triggers (such as natural infection at far higher levels than it is by vaccines) is “harmless” and does not cause autism?
Surely someone has noticed Don is Dan Steinberg (the “we” of Vaccinepapers) and Szilard is either also Dan Steinberg or his bff Feklesworth.
I assure you I’m not Dan Steinberg, nor am I associated with vaccinepapers in any way except for being an occasional commentator there.
All the evidence for support of IL-6 is on the vaccinepapers site. I don’t need to rehash the argument, but YOU do need to point to one shred of evidence, on any website, that refutes the argument. I’m not asking you to recite the argument: just point us to one. And please don’t refer to scienceblogs because so far as I can tell this is psuedoscience blogs.
Dingo you are correct and I am wrong: IL-6 isn’t a biomarker. The corrected sentence should read: “Damage to Purkinje cells is the closest thing that we have to a physiological marker for autism.”
If you’d bothered to read vaccinepapers you’d know that there are cases where severe infections have led to autism; not all cases of infection cause autism, and not all cases of severe vaccine reaction cause autism.
The mechanism of IL-6 and autism causation is well-established; please refute the actual science. I’ve asked this repeatedly but aside from some speculations and distraction no one has pointed to any science that refutes this.
If you want absolute certainty in science I doubt we’ll get it: IL-17a “seems to” be the causative agent is an accurate statement of what the experiments show. Or, more accurately, the relevant experiment shows that IL-17a causes damage to Purkinje cells. That “seems” to be a good indication. Science is always refutable so “seems” is an honest way to express our knowledge.
I understand that scienceblogs uses little word tricks and insults and anything it can to trip things up, and this is because it apparently doesn’t understand the science and prefers to argue from authority rather than from evidence. Perhaps you should change the name to “anything-but-the-science blogs”?
Tell me, Don, are you aware that not everything printed on the Internet is true?
Perhaps “Don” doesn’t understand that ASDs are heterogeneous aetiologies and infection* =/= vaccination.
*wild type v. Live viral vaccination.
No, Mr. Vapor Genie is nowhere near that incoherent.
@Narad, I’ll take your word for it but Don bears the same whiney petulance that Dan Steinberg employs.
FTFY.
“The mechanism of IL-6 and autism causation is well-established; please refute the actual science.”
What “actual science”? There’s no such thing.
Now you must prove me wrong, without resorting to ad hominems and innuendo. Failure to do so means I am right (according to your own rules).*
Conclusive proof that the IL-6 autism theory is bogus can be found here:
^ And also doesn’t pay any mind to the quality of research coughGeierShawTomlejenoviccough.
Let me make this easy for you since you’re having a great deal of difficulty. ALL of the evidence on vaccinepapers is from published, peer-reviewed research. All you need to do is show published peer-reviewed research that shows any of the following:
1. IL-6 doesn’t damage Purkinje cells
2. Purkinje cell damage does not lead ( in a significant number of cases) to autistic symptoms
3. IL-6 is not released in immune responses
4. Vaccines don’t provoke an immune response
5. The immune response elicited by vaccines does not in some cases cause cytokine surges that include IL-6 surges
6. The IL-6 released by some vaccine reactions is insufficient to damage Purkinje cells.
While you’re at it, prove that
1. The developing brain is not more susceptible to damage than the developed brain.
YOU are saying the theory is trash. NONE of you knows this (you all proceeding by speculation and by argument from authority.) NONE of you can prove the theory is false, yet you insist it’s false without scientific evidence. Heaven help us if this is “science.” I’ve had undergrads who could do far better than this.
Are all cases of autism caused by infection or vaccine reactions?
If infection can cause autism, how can we know that all autism isn’t caused by infection?
@Dangerous Bacon
Really? A video of a cute puppy is your idea of science?
You people are wasting my time.
@science mom back to our ad hominen arguments again, are we? The actual arguments too tough for you? I’m trying to help you the best I can but I’ve never seen such a lame bunch pretending to argue science.
Don I don’t believe you grasp how this works; the onus is on you to make your case. It’s not ours to disprove your abuse and ignorance of the scientific literature.
I finally bit…
Couldn’t find anything much about IL-6 and “autism” not published by Wei…
One of Wei’s papers reproduced on Vaccinepapers is full of weasel words: like “may” and “could” and “probably” in describing the supposed mechanism for maternal immune activation giving rise to brain IL-6 and how that then leads to autism…With some added leaps from behaviours observed in mice to autism which lack credibility…
That isn’t evidence which requires refuting, but kite flying which requires something to support it rather than conjecture.
Really if anyone needs a lecture on how science works you could start with Wei et alia…
Now, if someone has replicated Wei’s “findings” and can publish without having to resort to using “may” and “could” and “probably” and ” might” quite so many times and come up with something more credilble than equating mouse behaviour with autism I might start to think that there is something to this.
Care to point me to anything like that?
Not at all Don. You are just out of your league and not interesting nor educated enough to have a discussion with.
“YOU are saying the theory is trash. NONE of you knows this (you all proceeding by speculation and by argument from authority.) NONE of you can prove the theory is false, yet you insist it’s false without scientific evidence. Heaven help us if this is “science.” I’ve had undergrads who could do far better than this.”
As I pointed out above, even Wei doesn’t think it’s that great, as nothing is suggested other than “may” probably” “could” “might”…
I did better than that as an under-grad…
Don: “NONE of you can prove the theory is false, yet you insist it’s false without scientific evidence. Heaven help us if this is “science.” I’ve had undergrads who could do far better than this.”
Well, first off you need to prove it is true. But you seem to be skipping a big step. You are trying to stuff a “theory” of how vaccines cause autism, but skipped proving that autism is associated with vaccines.
So far several large epidemiological studies in several countries around this have shown there is no casual association between vaccines and autism.
Oh, dear G-d, this is too good: Stephanie Seneff has chimed in at AoA. Except:
Let that sink in.
^ “Excerpt”
One constant source of enjoyment whilst I intrepidly trudge through the muck of the deepest Altie swamps is when anti-vaxxers or woo-meisters portray themselves as immunologists, physiologists or psychologists by – basically- free associating concepts they picked up when rifling through textbooks or scientific articles, which they really don’t understand and then, assembling said concepts together into a Rube Goldberg-like contraption to adroitly explain away the axe they have to grind against SBM.
TMR’s Prof ( Zoey O’Toole) is becoming rather adept at this artform whose practtiioners include AoA’s Teresa Conrick Adriana Gamondes ( who adds oddly aggressively ugly graphics as well) and Master Craftsman, Gary Null. Adams is merely a tyro.
So, is it performance art or an entirely new species of self-expression? I wonder.
Some resemble the political creativity projects which we’ve seen so much of, of late.
So I ask, quite earnestly, my sceptical brothers and sisters, wouldn’t we do better – in order to irritate woo-meisters, anti-vaxxers hel-bent on avoiding toxins and Natural Health Mavens like the Food Babe- to, rather than argue with them ( which gets nowhere fast) to discuss the many intricacies of
Bad Food ™
yes, if you live in the UK or US ( or Canada or AUS), you can find many examples of horrendously unhealthy- but delicious-
temptations right in your local grocery or- if you are really lucky- already in your pantry/ larder.
How about Foamy Chocolate bars? (which I buy for an Irish person)
Caramel coated anything? Salted caramel coated anything?
or, or ,or
dare I say it, Breakfast Toaster cakes ( I can’t even mention their name)?
I truly relish Cheap Linzer Tart cookies from the Indian store.
Someone I know ( Not Me) buys chocolate coated chocolate roll-ups frosted with very cheap fake buttercream icing.
Need I say more?
Ooh. I heard Samsel speak at prn.fm.
Yiii.
I don’t believe she’s living on the same planet as the rest of us…..not even the most outrageous sci-fi novelist could take her rants seriously.
Here is a compelling theory.
First of all, it is known that stress* induces neuroinflammation.
“Often exposure to a stressor results in pro-inflammatory responses in the brain and periphery. These responses are mediated by a variety of inflammatory molecules including neuropeptides, cytokines, and stress hormones among others.”
https://www.karger.com/ProdukteDB/Katalogteile/isbn3_318/_023/_10/343965_p20-23.pdf
Parents who are exposed to frightening misinformation from antivaxers are subjected to stress, and it is reasonable to assume that infants are secondarily affected, setting up a cascade of inflammatory cytokines and other mediators which induce neuroinflammation. Neuroinflammation has been linked with autism.
Thus: antivaxers cause autism.
Now, before Don says this theory is trash, he will need to disprove it. The onus is on him.
*since playing with cute puppies relieves stress and thus prevents neuroinflammation, parents can greatly lower risk factors for autism by introducing puppies to the household as early as possible (and eliminate stress by ignoring antivaxers).
http://dogtime.com/trending/16765-puppy-room-to-help-stressed-out-college-students
I have produced two references to back my theory, which is two more than Don has come up with.
I win.
Dangerous Bacon I’m not disputing your theory– that sounds wonderful! You still haven’t refuted mine, which you dispute.
@Murmur then you aren’t paying attention: many papers have been published linking immune activation and autism, and by more than Wei.
@Chris the proof is laid out in vaccine papers; as I’ve mentioned you need not explain the counter-proof to me, you need only point me to published research that falsifies the mechanisms involved. Once again, you want to argue by the assumption that mainstream vaccine literature is correct, while the point of vaccinepapers is that it is not: you cannot prove vaccinepapers is wrong by assuming mainstream vaccine science is correct but rather you have to tackle the arguments directly.
@science mom: is THAT your idea of a scientific debate? All I’m asking for is published science that refutes the mechanism of IL-6 and Purkinje cell damage, the association of Purkinje cell damage with autistic symptoms, and the proof that vaccines don’t provoke the immune system sufficiently to cause a cytokine surge. Since this supposedly a “science” blog I had assumed that all of you already had the evidence at hand and would convince me in short order, but I see instead an awful lot of stumbling around and oh yes, still relying on ad hominem arguments.
And thanks for the Seneff link.
I’ve laid out the steps for you to refute vaccinepapers theory so this should be ridiculously easy for you, and since this is a “science” blog I naturally expect you to show the science. Why is this so hard? I even showed you a potentially easy way to do this but still you are all stumbling around and complaining about me demanding proof that you’ve refuted vaccinepapers theory. Am I supposed to take it on faith that you’ve found the science that refutes the immune activation theory of autism causation? Are you promising to show me in the future? Are you appealing to authority: the authorities say it can’t be true so therefore it isn’t?
I would like to see some science and logic for a change; please focus. I have a funny feeling I’ll only get insults and ad hominem attacks or silly appeals to puppies.
Don: “@Chris the proof is laid out in vaccine papers”
Prove it. Post the one definitive paper that shows vaccines cause autism. Not a paper that speculates on how it could cause autism… but the statistical significant study that shows autism is caused by vaccines.
Post the specific vaccine or vaccines, make sure that the increases in autism are coincident to the introduction of that vaccine, and the definitive data in humans to show autism increased with the use of that vaccine. Make sure that all of the autism cases were diagnosed with the same DSM.
For example: if you want to make a claim that the MMR caused autism, make sure you include data from 1971 on, and that all the autism cases would qualify under the DSM used in the 1970s, the DSM II (this includes all kids born after 1990).
If you want to claim the DTP caused autism, then start with data from when it was introduced. That would be the 1940s. If you claim it was the DTaP, then that data should start in 1998.
As I said, be specific. Give us proof positive by posting the PMID here. Do not make us slog through the morass of cherry picked papers on rodents and petri dishes.
Poor Don, still can’t distinguish wild-type infection fom vaccination. Which is the wrong-headed leap you are making here. That was a big hint for you Don.
From the “You keep using that word…” department:
“Argumentum ad hominem” has a meaning. Let me explain. If I were to write in a comment, “Don is a time-wasting nimrod and all-round numptie, therefore his argument is invalid”, that would be Argumentum ad hominem. Here some people have merely insulted you, for entertainment, and because it seems an appropriate response to your sense of entitlement.
Do you see the difference?
So, wait, we are all supposed to go visit the Vaccine Papers and believe it all because we were told to by a guy who:
1. Can’t tell the difference between a wild pathogen and a vaccine.
2. Does not know the difference between “ad homenem” and insult.
Okay. No wonder he can’t figure out that before you try to find out how a vaccine causes autism, you need to determine if it causes autism (and the data on the latter is “no, they don’t cause autism”).
By the way, Shaw and Tomljenovic are just incompetent, and trying to get the answers to satisfy those that are funding their research: the Dwoskin Family Foundation. The folks who paid for a “Vaccine Conference” on their property in Jamaica. It included several people with dubious research.
Also, the above paragraph is neither an ad hominem nor an insult: it is just stating a historical fact:
http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2013/08/a-snapshot-of-deep-pockets-of-anti.html
Oh, rats… I left out a tiny bit of HTML.
@ Chris there is no one paper that “proves” as you well know, but the mechanism and logic are in place that show how immune activation, including from vaccines (there is no difference between an immune activation from vaccines vs live virus EXCEPT for the degree, which in some vaccine cases can be severe) can cause autism. If you’re arguing from science rather than from conjecture then you have to refute the mechanism.
Ad hominen is saying that Shaw and Geier, for example, are “junk” without showing that their arguments are junk.
Insulting for entertainment? I thought this was science blogs and you’d put forward science? You all seem to have a very, very difficult time with this, and I’m surprised at how easy it is to trip you up on the “science,” which you can’t provide to refute vaccinepapers’ points.
Please, try to do better, use science and logic, not insults.
Bless Don’s heart. No wonder you’re having so much trouble with this. Short answer is: not even close you fail immunology 101.
Good grief!
Don, here’s an analogy: If we imagine the amount of inflammation caused by the immune system to be a flame
vaccine = match
wild-type infection = forest fire
You would be well-served by reading some immunology text books (which say nothing about autism) to get a solid background. It is a confusing and difficult subject, and the more you learn the more you are amazed that anyone is alive. I would recommend Janeway’s “Immunobiology”, 7th edition.
By the way Don immunology is a scientific discipline.
Since Don will invariably bleat about insults. Please solve your own problem by explaining to us science Luddites what the difference is between a pertussis infection and DTaP. You can even use complex terms like virulence factors and complement e.g.
@science mom please show how vaccines DO NOT elicit an immune response and then I’ll believe you know what you’re talking about. I never said it was the same degree of response but in some cases the reaction to a vaccine can be severe.
@Chris you do understand that alleging that I don’t understand the difference between wild virus and vaccine, etc., and therefore shouldn’t be believed is itself an ad hominem argument that attacks the speaker rather than the argument? You have a very hard time understanding the nature of ad hominem attack and perhaps should review this. A short review is: always focus on the argument, never focus on the man or any alleged or real “sins” of the man.
Do I hear some of you alleging that vaccines do NOT provoke an immune response? Naturally, you have science to prove this? Or must I listen to more insults instead?
#108:
#139:
My sincerity detector is showing no response.
Don @144:
Vaccines cause an immune response (that is the point of vaccines).
Vaccines cause *less* of an immune response than the pathogen they are protecting against (that is the point of vaccines).
Wild-type infection causes *more* inflammation and immune activation than vaccines.
Therefore: if immunization with a vaccine causes release of sufficient IL-6 to damage the brain, then *any* wild-type infection will cause release of *more* IL-6, so *any* wild-type infection should be more likely to cause autism than any vaccine.
Logic!
Don: “@science mom please show how vaccines DO NOT elicit an immune response…”
Aw, how cute. That is kind of the point of a vaccine, except to get a tiny immune response instead of a full blown one from the actual wild pathogen. You don’t seem to understand the vaccines are given to educate the immune system in preparation for an assault by the full wild disease.
Don, please tell us which vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the actual disease with supporting PMID from reputable qualified researchers.
Please explain germinal centers and how they relate to polysaccharide vaccines, and then I’ll believe you know what you’re talking about.
I do commend you, Don, for chancing upon an appropriate use of scare quotes.
Insults, definitely insults because no one ever said anything remotely resembling that. Our new resident immunology-ignorant tone-troll doesn’t appear to be able to describe differential responses. Don’t you think you should have pondered that before demanding your sophomoric hypothesis be disproved?
Do I hear some of you alleging that vaccines do NOT provoke an immune response?
Possibly he does, but no-one here is responsible for Don’s voices.
@JustaTech correct. But not everyone gets a severe infection, whereas nearly all children receive vaccines and some have severe reactions. What is the tradeoff? Good question, but we’ll never find out if we ignore the effects. Your fault, though, is assuming that a vaccine reaction is ALWAYS LESS than a disease reaction, in all cases.
@Chris you’re evading the question. We’re not arguing whether harms from vaccines are more or less than harms from vaccines, although that’s an excellent question. We’re arguing whether the immune activation/autism mechanism is valid.
@Narad scare quotes because I’m not seeing much science here but rather evasions and poor use of logic.
@science mom please see #140. I admit I’m getting tired of repeating myself.
OK, fine, so we agree that vaccines elicit immune response. Now are you going to argue that vaccines NEVER elicit an immune response severe enough to induce a cytokine surge that includes IL-6? And that if some instances a cytokine surge occurs then this NEVER affects Purkinje cells in developing brains?
Do I have to hold your hands through this whole thing and make your arguments for you?
Do I have to hold your hands through this whole thing and make your arguments for you?
Good grief I wish you would already and explain how wild-type disease differs from that of vaccination in terms of immunologic response. It’s as if you don’t know how.
Don –
So far as you know, I ask 2 very sincere questions back at 118, and I have not yet called you an idiot. Do you not understand the questions, do you not know the answer, or is there some other reason you are ignoring them?
^blockquote fail.
Don, just provide evidence that 1) IL-6 production via vaccination is “severe” (whatever that means), that 2) it damages developing brains, and that 3) this effect is clinically significant.
Truly I have seldom seen such lame attempts to connect vague and theoretical dots. You sound like that comedienne whose tag line was “It could happen!”
Don: “We’re not arguing whether harms from vaccines are more or less than harms from vaccines, although that’s an excellent question.”
No, deer. That is the question I am asking you.
“We’re arguing whether the immune activation/autism mechanism is valid.”
No, you are the one stuck on that bit. It is kind of a foolish speculation because you have absolutely evidence that vaccines cause autism. Therefor it is silly to speculate on “immune activation” in relationship to vaccines. You are on step D, but have skipped steps A, B, C and D.
Seriously, if vaccines caused autism through some magical immune activation, then why would the even greater immune responses from the diseases not be a cause of autism? Why just autism, how about blindness, deafness, paralysis, encephalitis, pneumonia, etc — which are all much more probable with the diseases?
So answer my question, which vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the diseases?
Oh, Don, here are a collection of reasons why your question is silly:
Vaccines are not associated with autism: An evidence-based meta-analysis of case-control and cohort studies (a pdf of the uncorrected proof)
So unless you have real verifiable proof that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes autism (see times span/DSM criteria above): your whinging about “immune activation/autism mechanism” is ridiculous.
Oops: “but have skipped steps A, B and C.”
Oh, Don, here are a collection of reasons why your question is silly:
Well, yes, but Squirrelelite made that point back at comment 94. Don’s conceptual hairball leads to the prediction that autism rates will be higher in a vaccinated than in an otherwise-matched unvaccinated group; the prediction is contradicted by published studies; the conceptual hairball is falsified.
Don responded by ignoring the comment and repeating his insistence that it’s everyone’s job to prove him wrong. Of course he also informed us that “the medical literature is corrupt”, leaving him free to ignore published studies (except the ones cherry-picked for their value in propping up his narrative).
I admit I’m getting tired of repeating myself.
But not tired enough to stop.
Heh, I missed this one:
Thanks, herr doktor bimmler! And thanks to Chris anyway for providing the text in pdf.
Thanks to you all for pulling it together! Now will Don ever figure it out?
*Sigh*
Don must have some superior search engine to the well-known one I used: a search on “IL-6 and autism” only produced papers by Wei and links to some of those on Vaccinepapers…
Give me another name, Don. Please…
And I note you avoid my point about equating mouse behaviour with autism lacking credibility or usefulness. Give me something which involves actual autism in actual bairns…
Oh, before you try to lecture me on that latter point, I should remind you (apologies to regular readers for needing to trot this out again) that assessing bairns for possible autism was a good chunk of what I did in the latter part of my career and I had the professional acquaintance of one of the co-authors of one of the better autism assessment tools, an internationally recognised expert in the field.
On another note, Wei-Wei has co-authored some excellent papers on urinary frequency.
#154 re #118: answers are “probably not” and “that’s unlikely.”
@Dangerous Bacon #156
1) In severe vaccine reactions we might assume that the inflammation produces cytokines including IL-6. This is logical assumption: inflammation produces cytokines. If this is not the case, then prove it. For 2) and 3) see vaccinepapers where the evidence is laid out in peer-reviewed publications. If inflammation from a severe vaccine reaction is akin to any severe inflammation (no reason why it is not) then 2) and 3) are well-established in the literature.
Well. That’s not very good, is it? Try here:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=il-6+autism&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C1&as_sdtp=
Don: “1) In severe vaccine reactions we might assume that the inflammation produces cytokines…”
Please post the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more immune responses and harm than the disease. Again, just post the PMID here and do not make us slog through the Vaccine Papers website.
Don: “3) are well-established in the literature.”
That should make it easy for you to post the pertinent PMID that the vaccine reaction is worse than the inflammation from the disease. Now post them here.
You’re really unclear on this whole “immune system” thingamabob, aren’t you? Quick: what produces inflammation?
Which you are unable to cite on your own for some reason.
Don #167
I assert pink unicorns exist. If you disagree: prove it!
Let’s return to the beginning, since all this inflammation talk, while amusing from a chew-toy level, is orthogonal to vaccines:
Which cells traffic in IL-6, Don? What is their basic role?
^ P.S. Where’s Sarah A.?
“That should make it easy for you to post the pertinent PMID that the vaccine reaction is worse than the inflammation from the disease.”
Of course that’s an easy assumption – like the idea that vaccine Toxins (excipients that may or may not be in the final product at minute levels) are assumed to be far worse than bacterial and viral toxins proven to be at present at high serum levels during active infection.*
It’s gotta be the vaccines, it’s just gotta. Now prove that wrong.
*that is, if one acknowledges that viral and bacterial toxins exist as opposed to being a false flag factoid invented by the CDC and its minions.
BTW, Don, does exercise also “damage” Purkinje cells? Remember, you’ve already, ah, informed everyone that “cytokines such as IL-6 are carried by the blood and can originate anywhere and then be carried to the brain.”
does exercise also “damage” Purkinje cells?
I for one do not intend to take the risk.
Where is Sarah H?
Why can’t I post some of my links here?
There is plenty of evidence to indicate that Aluminum translocates to the brain and causes oxidative damage. In 2013 Zakir Khan et al injected rodents IM with rhodamine labeled aluminum hydroxide nanoparticles. They subsequently killed the mice and examined the tissues. The amount of Rho-Al containing cells in the brain was about 600x higher¹ [fig8e] after 90 days than during the first hour after injection. Khan et al also injected rats with an standard vaccine and found higher Aluminum brain concentration¹ by using particle-induced X-ray emission [fig1].
Myeong Kim et al in 2015 assessed many different parameters in mice injected with aluminum and mice cells incubated with aluminum in vitro.² They found a dose-dependent increase of caspase-3/7 [fig2], oxoguanine [fig3], β-amyloid [fig4], ect. They also found a decrease in rat-learning [fig4]and AMPK [fig6], a very important metabolic enzyme. And this being a modern study, it is replete with brillinant morin and rhodamine stained photomicrographs that allow you to visualize the Aluminum nanoparticles directly. Here is the conclusion from the paper:
Aluminum certainly causes learning problems, oxidataive stress, and the deranged proteins associated with Alzheimer’s disease. This is beyond debate.
²https://www.researchgate.net/publication/280974725_Nanoscale-alumina_induces_oxidative_stress_and_accelerates_amyloid_beta_Ab_production_in_ICR_female_mice
Hi Lewis,
You’ve quoted a paper as evidence of the harm Al causes from a vaccine. Yet that paper concerned:
” Nano-alumina peripherally administered to ICR female mice for three weeks increased brain aluminium and ROS production
I cannot post the first reference, this website will not let me. I will just spell out the title: ¹Slow CCL2-dependent translocation of biopersistent particles from muscle to brain
My post was cut in half, my apologies.
The for three weeks was meant to be in bold.
“¹Slow CCL2-dependent translocation of biopersistent particles from muscle to brain”
It’s worth reading Todd’s page on Aluminium, there is, quoting off the top of my head, like 350 mg of AL in the human body already, spreading 50 mg* really slowly around the body, with a fair chunk being excreted in the urine and bile salts, doesn’t seem a big deal.
*The amount in a vaccine
Bye, Fucklesworth.
“The for three weeks was meant to be in bold.”
And the sentence to follow was: what vaccine is given for three weeks?
This is one of the dangers of cherry picking, that the guy from vaccine papers seems oblivious to.
So, Lewis is the new sock puppet, eh?
Why can’t I post some of my links here?
I am going to guess “cut-&-paste incompetence”.
Depending on the value of “new,” but Travis J. Schwochert deliberately gives himself away. The point is anyone’s guess.
I find it amusing that he even invented a “follower” for his *koff* academia-dot-edu account, though.
Oh, and Travis is also talking to himself as “Jay.”
One might wonder whether Bob has been retired.
^ “
BobDon“No Herr Bimler. This website does not allow you to post certain URL’s. Google the paper and try posting the URL yourself. You will find that it is not allowed.
@Jay
You can plainly see that injecting insoluble aluminum nanoparticles is a big deal.
Perhaps the soluble molecular aluminum introduced through diet isn’t especially damaging, but these papers have shown that insoluble aggregates to translocate into the brain.
Strange, but true.
@Jay
Where does this exaggerrated body burden estimate come from. The Handbook on the Toxicology of Metals estimates a body burden of 30mg to 50mg.
Johnny, I leapt to the same conclusion, with considerable confidence of a safe landing, even before I read his first comment.
Why don’t you trivially obfuscate one so that everyone can check?
Google the paper and try posting the URL yourself. You will find that it is not allowed.
Since the paper in question has already received its quota of ridicule three weeks ago (on Page 2 of this comment thread, several Fendlesworth instantiations ago), I do not share your enthusiasm for pimping out the Exley-Gherardi axis of grifters.
I followed Gilbert’s link and found this paper: Brain IL-6 elevation causes neuronal circuitry imbalances and mediates autism-like behaviors
They were able to create mice that over-expressed IL-6 by injecting them with a gene. These mice did worse opn the Morris water maze just like in another article that I had posted earlier. They also scored worse on various exploratory tests.
They also found an altered ratio of exitatory and inhibitory brain synapse proteins. Here is the concluding remarks:
These researches do not act like the IL-6/Autism connection is controversial at all. They basically state that this is a well-known relationship:
This is interesting, as it shows that IL-6 itself may have a causal role.
Aluminum causes a 30X increase in IL-6 levels. Aluminum is found in vaccines.
Intramuscular Al + macrophage transport + lactoferrin transport ⇒ Al in brain ⇒ oxidative damage + IL-6 formation + β-amyloid ⇒ Autism + Alzheimer’s Diesease
Now that we can all admit that vaccines cause autism, we need to start educating people on this!
Aluminum causes a 30X increase in IL-6 levels. Aluminum is found in vaccines.
It also makes up 8% of the Earth’s crust by mass. Perhaps we should all stop eating food grown in the dirt. Or breathing air with any dust in it.
Failure to anticipate the ff ligature was kind of cute.
JP, all of these studies examine the toxicokinetics if intravenous and intramuscular Aluminum nanoparticles. This is completely different than enteral absorbtion, which for Aluminum, is only around .05%.
Abundant? Yes. But our bodies have evolved to highly minimize it’s absorption. When it is injected, the adsorption is 100%, and it is in an insoluble form.
These particles are consumed my macrophages and are transported to various organs, including the brain. Perhaps you should read this as well if you think that IV aluminum is safe: Aluminum Neurotoxicity in Preterm Infants Receiving Intravenous-Feeding Solutions
JP, why do you hate?
That is still Wei, lewis. She asked for another name. There is a rich field to choose from.
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Oh, man, I needed a solid five-minute laughing fit. You are dearly missed, Krebiozen.
Putting the problems with this study aside, this is just like IM vaccination how Travis the Window Washer?
I didn’t bother with whether there were any. The whole issue is that aluminum contamination in parenteral nutrition is precisely what demonstrates that the toxokinetics of aluminum from vaccinations is a non-starter. At this rate, Travis is going to need prosthetic feet before long.
I get the feeling that most people here are ALCOA shareholders.
I cannot imagine any other reason why thy cannot admit that aluminum is an insidious neurotoxin in vaccine-delivered dosages.
If you were to read the studies that I have posted, you would know that IM-injected aluminum transports to the brain at an even higher rate that IV-injected aluminum.
Who do you people work for? ALCOA? Eli Lilly? Merck?
How much are they paying you?
@Lewis: Two things.
1) Sockpuppeting is a bannable offence on this blog. Your style is identical to “Szilard”, who posted on this thread earlier.
2) Here’s the very first sentence from the article you posted above. I’ve bolded the relevant points.
“Renal insufficiency” and “aluminium contaminated solutions”. That doesn’t strike me as good evidence that the minuscule quantities of aluminium salts in vaccines constitute a danger to healthy people with proper renal function.
Was that the study that showed how intramuscular administered tagged aluminum nanoparticles are engulfed by macrophages and travel to the brain?
This seems like an effective mechanism to bypass the kidneys, yes?
Keep in mind that aluminum is routinely injected in unhealthy pre-term infants with improper renal function.
There’s more in my carefully managed Post-It filing system, but allow me to leave this here for the time being.
It has a descent path, but cooking is more important than framing at the moment.
@Lewis: No. It was “Aluminum Neurotoxicity in Preterm Infants Receiving Intravenous-Feeding Solutions”.
I had a read through “Brain IL-6 elevation causes neuronal circuitry imbalances and mediates autism-like behaviors”. Aluminium isn’t mentioned in that one either.
Who do you people work for? ALCOA? Eli Lilly? Merck?
Far be it for me to criticise someone else’s sense of humour, but this “Aluminati Parody” thing does not do it for me.
Oh so much seconded.
Um, no.
Someone* quoted a study showing that macrophages are engulfing Aluminium particles.
If the article is about nanoparticles, newflash, aluminium salts in vaccines are not nanoparticles. There are much, much smaller than that. No, even if they precipitate on site.
Then the same someone pointed out, in the same article or another one, that macrophages are moving across an in vitro model of the blood brain barrier, due to inflammation-released cytokines.
Interesting, but in this in vitro model the macrophages have nowhere else to go but across the barrier. I would be more interested by a whole-animal study, just to be sure there is really a tropism toward the brain affecting the macrophages all the way to the limbs. Actually, since the aluminium salts would trigger a local inflammation on the vaccine injection site, by that logic the macrophages should be moving toward the injection site, not away from it.
Also, unless you have a strong and/or permanent brain inflammation, the macrophages are not going to stay. And if you have a strong inflammation of your brain tissues, you have bigger and more pressing issues than aluminium.
Finally, and more importantly, that someone conjectured that aluminium ions are going to magically stay inside the macrophage during its transit from the vaccine injection site to the brain, and then these ions are going to exit en masse inside the brain and stay there. Something about the cell membrane being leaky to metal ions was mentioned.
Short answer: [citation needed], en masse, too.
Longer answer, points of contention:
To repeat, dissolved salts are not nanoparticles.
If the macrophage’s membrane is that “leaky”, I would expect the macrophages to disperse the aluminium ions all around the organism before reaching the brain, effectively diluting their concentration – ad their toxicity – and facilitating their elimination by liver and kidneys.
My understanding of the cell membrane is that it is not particularly “leaky” toward hydrophile substances, among which I would count small ionized salts. The usual membrane potential would actually limit the exit of positively-charged molecules.
I could be wrong on these points, but as I said, more [citation needed].
In this case we should observe a strong correlation between whatever your aluminium is doing and pre-term infants.
I haven’t heard that autistic people are more in need of renal dialysis than anyone else.
Also, which aluminium injection are you talking about? Per the CDC schedule, only HepB is given at birth. For other vaccines, injection is for 2-month old babies. Renal functions had have time to develop, by this time.
I should know, I was a jaundiced preemy.
I, for one, am disappointed that Weyerhaeuser seems to be out of the loop.
The Deuce you say.
“Oh, and Travis is also talking to himself as “Jay.””
Um, no he’s not. I’m me, totally not someone else. Hope that clears that up 😉
@ Lewis
Whilst I’m digging up non biased Al figures. Could you address my other point of you using a study involving three weeks of Aluminium exposure in a vaccine argument?
At this point it’s worth noting that you and Vaccine Papers have been shown, three times now, misappropriating genuine bits of research and twisting it to suit your purpose. Then claiming you have “proof”.
@Helianthis says
Much smaller? How about much bigger. Here is a quote from Aluminum hydroxide nanoparticles show a stronger vaccine adjuvant activity than traditional aluminum hydroxide microparticles:
So aluminum hydroxide adjuvant particles are on the scale of microparticles. Looks like Helianthis is talking out of his ass again. And he says:
The solubility of aluminum hydroxide is 0.0001 g/100 mL. These are not “dissolved salts”.
It has been proven. Just take a look at some of the studies listed here.
This site will not let you post the link for Slow CCL2-dependent translocation of biopersistent particles from muscle to brain directly. Try it and find out.
ORAC has this as an verboten link.
This site will not let you post the link for Slow CCL2-dependent translocation of biopersistent particles from muscle to brain directly. Try it and find out.
ORAC has this as a verboten link.
@ Lewis
Looks like I put in a Milligram amount as a Microgram amount.
Can’t get hold of a reference for your 30-50 mg amount, but let’s say it’s right:
“The FDA study found that the maximum amount of aluminum an infant could be exposed to over the first year of life would be 4.225 milligrams (mg), based on the recommended schedule of vaccines.”
“limit the amount of aluminum in the recommended individual dose of biological products, including vaccines, to not more than 0.85-1.25 mg”
That’s looking like my point still stands, a relatively small amount, slowly spread around is not a problem.
@ Lewis
With regards to the Slow CCL2 spread paper, please bear in mind that they are using a dose to “represents an equivalent 6.8 human doses in the youngest animal ”
Also in the results regarding moving into the brain “This occurs at an extremely low rate in normal mice”
Here’s the conclusion of that paper.
I’ve highlighted some relevant words. That’s a lot of conjecture and “may”, and not very hard evidence.
Kind of hard to try it when you keep refusing to provide an obfuscated version.
Oh, look, somebody can’t read. There’s a surprise.
Does anyone know what happened to him?
Jay:
“Can’t get hold of a reference for your 30-50 mg amount, but let’s say it’s right:”
As you noted earlier, Todd at Harpocrates-Speaks has the details:
“At birth, it is estimated that infants already have a total body burden of aluminum of about 384 µg.”
Julian:
Here’s the conclusion of that paper.
You’re giving that exercise in bogus deck-stacking more credit than it deserves. Gherardi and his cohorts did everything they could to ensure they got the result they wanted (or rather, that the Dwoskin foundation wanted), and called the whole travesty an “experiment”. Weird Al-Rho particles and “fluorescent latex beads” instead of actual aluminium adjuvants… massive doses… Even the mutant mice they used had been bred for leaky blood-brain barriers or elevated CLL2.
http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2015/02/demystifying-vaccine-ingredients-aluminum.html?showComment=1436629100508#c4662411266645399565
Silly me, assuming that the authors were acting in good faith.
Silly me, assuming that the authors were acting in good faith.
Silly you! The authors announce straight out of the blocks that this was goal-directed “research”, the goal being to validate a factitious syndrome:
Note that Gherardi has abandoned his claim to priority, and is using Shoenfeld’s term for the made-up syndrome — ‘ASIA” — rather than his own title “MMF”. Perhaps this was a condition of funding
It’s also worth noting that the mutant mdx mice used to achieve the desired effect (by way of their leaky BBB) were originally bred for muscular dystrophy research. They lack dystrophin. Their muscles break down spontaneously, with elevated macrophage activity.
No-one could have predicted that the contents of an intramuscular injection would show up in macrophages!
@ Julian Frost:
I wish I knew.
He was/ is a fabulously brilliant commenter and ( probably) person. I think he said something about getting a position in high tech- which I hope is why he’s not around- too busy.
He said he had surgery for a sinus condition which sounded brutal ( both the condition and the surgery).
I think I also knew him using another ‘nym but I haven’t seen that either.
If you’re here , Kreb, COME ON OUT.
@Herr Bimler
The Aluminum Rhodamine particles around the gadolinium core were probably used to test the integrity of the nanoparticles; as long as they found, with fluorescence and PIXE, the Rhodamine, Aluminum, and the Gadolinium together, then they know that that the particle arrived unchanged. This isn’t “weird”, this is solid science. The reason they used Gadolinium is that it has a very high ionization cross section [fig62]¹ at a narrow window of 30eV. This means that it provides a high resolution when used with particle-induced X-ray emission. This element is also highly paramagnetic, should the decide to use magnetic resonance to visualize it.
The fluorescent latex beads were a bit weird however.
They did use actual vaccines for part of the experiment. Perhaps you should gloss over the paper a little more thoroughly next time?
Hmm. 6.8 human doses is a massive dose? Someone should tell the 2-month-old infants that. According to the CDC, it is recommended² that they receive 6 doses at that time.
¹Ionization cross sections for low energy electron
transport
²http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html
Could you get on to that “verboten link” business, Fυcklesworth?
Not all contain aluminium adjuvants and most are put together in combination vaccines. Try again Travis.
Don’t hold you breath (rhetorical); Travis just passes over inconvenient comments to his performance art.
http://vaccinepapers.org/wp-content/uploads/slow-ccl2-dependent-translocation-of-biopersistent-particles-from-muscle-to-brain.pdf
So much for the moronic performance art repeating that the link was “verboten.” One might note, however, that – unlike a good deal of Dan Steinberg’s “Vaccine Papers” site – that the paper was open-access in the first place.
This isn’t even pathetic, Travis.
The BioMed Central link is still forbidden. Try for yourself.
http://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7015-11-99
What was that again Travis?
I still am not allowed to post the link that you just posted.
This seems very strange, but it’s true.
“Their muscles break down spontaneously …”
Regardless of any inherent propensity to disintegration, I suspect my muscles would be remarkably unhappy and inflamed upon receiving an injection of 30 mL at one site, which is the approximate equivalent of what the mice were subjected to. I would certainly suffer from badly inflamed knuckles from applying then abruptly and forcefully to the jaw or other facial bits of may assailant.
^ my assailant
As opposed to the one that you were bitching about in the first place? Oh, wait, there’s no telling what that was.
Doug, while you could allometrically extrapolate a volume from mice to humans for an IV injection, extrapolating a subcutaneous or IM injection seems unwise.
The space between cells does not significantly change depending on the size of the animal.
The 36μg injection that the mouse received shouldn’t be equated to a 30mL injection that you would receive.
Plus your math seems incorrect. It was previously noted that the mice received 6.8 human dose equivalents. This would equate to about 3.4mL to 6.8mL for you [.5mL-1mL/dose].
In the Al-Rho branch of the experiment, the split the dose into two separate muscles:
They could have done the same thing for the vaccine experiment.
Here is a naughty paper:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19880572
Of course, If one is a cat then being given an aluminum adjuvanted vaccine might give you a VAS (vaccine-associated sarcoma).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine-associated_sarcoma
^Oh lookie Travis, you have a fellow traveller equally ignorant of crap science.
Do play along, here. You will accept some rounding, won’t you, unlike the photon per fortnight Fendlesworth?
“35 g mice (the mean weight..” receive 36 µl (that’s microlitres, approximately equal to micrograms, if you aren’t anal about density that isn’t one, to some moderate number of insignificant digits) injection, divided between two sites. So let’s say (with Rounding!) 1 microlitre per gramme of mouskie. 1 microliter per gram for a 60 000 gram smelly human, as cited, worketh out, without resort to abacus, to 60 000 microlitres, or 60 millilitres. Divvy by zwei, macht 30 cubic centimetres per site. Probably pushed in a few hundred milliseconds, at most (you have actually done injections, haven’t you?- ever tried to blast 30 mL out of a syringe in a small fraction of a second? need a honkin’ big needle and a damned strong thumb, and a tolerance for rending flesh).
36? 40? What’s consistency? What was the volume of injection in the control meeses?
What happened to the Purkinje routine?
You don’t seem to deal well with being pantsed, Travis.
Ahem.
Well Doug, you calculation seems reasonable, but…
You cannot use allometry for intramuscular and subcutaneous injections because the cell size and intracellular matrix does not appreciable change among different sized animals.
A simple practice guide for dose conversion between animals and human
Since we’re onto aluminum now, which side effects specifically associated with the vaccines that contain aluminum adjuvants and not with the ones that do not are you concerned about, Lewis?
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/adjuvants.html
Ahem.
Indeed. I’m yankin’ the chain.
Oh how cute Travis actually learned something from our “conversations”. So Travis, when are you going to back away from some of those studies you are so fond of defending or are you just going to hope no one notices?
Lewis,
Once again, pull up your innumerable socks and try to keep up:
I’m referring simply to the volume injected into a tiny muscle wrapped in fascia. When the dolts that wrote the paper are concerned with inflammatory response, it is absurd not to consider actual physical damage to muscle cause by an injection that is, in relative terms, nearly an order of magnitude greater than the accepted maximum volume for an IM injection. How do you think an adult human would respond to rapid intramuscular injection of 30 ml of something as innocuous as isotonic saline? If you’d like to try it on yourself, please send a stamped, self-addressed large envelope and I’ll send you a 30 ml syringe, a 16 gauge needle and a 30 ml bottle of genuine Hospira (a Pfizer company) Sodium Chloride for Injection.
That control I mentioned was …?
Forgot to include this specific thing:
This is exactly my point. They crammed a relatively extraordinarily large amount of fluid into a tiny muscle, with no place for it to go other than the normally minuscule intercellular space. It will physically damage the muscle. It was probably extremely painful. Muscle damage tends not to go unnoticed by normal physiological processes.
I’ve been aware of the relative size of mammalian muscle cells for 5+ decades – since long before Google hung out its shingle.
Doug, how is 18μg or 36μg of liquid a relatively large amount for a mouse?
You cannot use allometry to determine that.
@SquirellElite
I am concerned about insoluble aluminum nanoparticles and/or microparticles being transported, through the lymphatic system, to the spleen and brain of children.
Perhaps there should be a moratorium of aluminum hydroxide adjuvants until someone can do primate studies on this phenomenon. Allometric scaling will be less of an issue here, and our physiology is closer to monkeys in innumerable ways besides.
Calcium Phosphate has long been the #2 adjuvant and should be used instead.
Impressively, though, one apparently can make this kind of shіt up.
Now, Travis, this whole relationship seems pretty asymmetric. Given that you’re plainly desperate for attention, why don’t you tell everyone a bit about yourself?
Hey, you’re a primate. Maybe you could hit up GoFundMe for a pilot project.
You cannot use allometry to determine that.
This word salad needs more dressing.
Nano micro what’s the diff right Travis? Travis, what is the order of aluminium salts deposition again?
@Lewus,
I’m more concerned about protecting my grandson from the real effects of diseases like blindness, deafness, sterility, and even death than worrying about the specific mechanism for the side effect the 5 shots he recieved.
Specifically, he was a bit more restive and clingy the next day when we took care of him and didn’t want to take a nap. The next day he was fine and back to normal.
Alert and paying attention.
The lighrs are still on.
Did anyone actually read the study?
Aluminum is a neurotoxin, and it’s in vaccines. Doesn’t this bother anyone else?
@Sciencemom
The size of the adjuvant particles was estimated to be 1μg to 20μg, but there are likely smaller ones as well. I am being generous with the range of sizes, since there seems to be a paucity of data on the subject.
I still haven’t heard a good critique on the study. Don and Robert Harris was right, all you get here is hyperbole and name-calling.
If there was really something wrong with the study, then why are you @ssholes diverting the conversation towards the messenger? The only person that doesn’t use 5-th grade bully tactics is SquirrellElite.
why are you @ssholes diverting the conversation towards the messenger
It is hard to imagine why time-wasting bullsh1t-artist sock-puppets should incur such discourteous reactions.
Here’s a little experiment:
You’ll need two 3 cc syringes with, say, 25 gauge needles, and a bottle of normal saline.
Draw up 3 ml of saline in each syringe. Inject the contents of one syringe into your vastus lateralis. Inject the contents of the other into your levator palpebrae superioris – your choice of sides. If you’re squeamish about stabbing yourself about the eye, or your aim is dubious (since you’d need to use a mirror, this would not be surprising), you might consider a larger target, such as one of the thenar group, which is a lot more handy, so to speak. Let us know how long it takes for your bits to return to normal function. While you’re waiting, ponder on the simple issue of ratio of muscle size to injection volume.
Who was it said “a nod’s as good as a wink”?
I still haven’t heard a good critique on the study.
Did you want one? Did it occur to you to ask for one? Or is it just something that you feel entitled to?
Current aluminium adjuvants are microparticles, not nano as Gherardi used.
Hahaha. Would you like all of your vile comments dredged up? All your little sockies aren’t going to protect you Schwochert.
Hey, Travis, what’s an inverse femtobarn?
I suppose lymph drainage into your head (and I do mean your) could explain a number of things here.
Do you trolls get paid for each individual post? Or do you get a salary?
@SquirellElite
Aren’t you worried about the neurotoxins in vaccines?
Did you know that they could easily be reformulated to be much safer?
Nobody else even read the study.
So Lewis, you haven’t rebbutted my points on:
A: Using a paper that described a three week dose of Aluminium.
B: Using a paper that used a dose five times higher than used in a human.
C: You are complaining that Al salts cause inflamation, yet that is precisely why they are used as adjuvants.
Instead you are namecalling us shills and complaining about us being meanie to you. You are one of the biggest hipocrites I have ever met…
What was the study we havent read?
Do you trolls get paid for each individual post? Or do you get a salary?
I receive beer discounts. I am given to believe that Denise is paid in gin.
insoluble aluminum nanoparticles and/or microparticles being transported, through the lymphatic system, to the spleen
See, commenting at RI is therapeutic in itself, my spleen is completely vented.
“I receive beer discounts.”
Herr Bim, I wonder if the Pharma Shill Gambiteers have ever wondered, at the sheer cost of having a team of experts on hand over a weekend?
Oh and cheers for the Todd info, just couldn’t find it cause I was on my phone.
False Travis. I have read the study and commented at length on it on Harpocrates Speaks. I along with others have commented on the short-comings of the “study” here; you just don’t like being told you believe rubbish.
@ Gilbert
That first paper isn’t naughty really, just a call for more adjuvants. What you are witnessing is Big Pharma and Science continually improving. What’s the bet that once people start using the new adjuvants, the new ones will also be accused of causing every unexplained illness under the sun.
Nice try with the FUD with feline sarcomas, this might cheer you up:
“Feline injection-site sarcomas (FISS) have been known since the early 1990s. After an initial correlation with rabies and feline leukaemia virus vaccination, subsequent studies have demonstrated that an abnormal reaction of feline tissues to chronic inflammation was mainly responsible for the disease. ”
Feline injection-site sarcoma: past, present and future perspectives. Martano M1, Morello E, Buracco P.
I can’t speak for the other Pharma Trolls, but I receive a salary as well as payments for every post.
Some days there are relatively few eye-rollingly stupid woo posts to respond to, other times they blanket the Internet. I need a steady infusion of $$$ to cover my expenses (you have no idea how much coffee one must consume to stay awake while shilling at all those different sites) and per-post payments may not be enough.
Let’s not forget bonuses, too. After a good year you want more than just an invitation to Lord Draconis Zeneca’s Reptiloid Solstice Party.
@ herr doktor bimler:
I receive gin, money, shoes and -occasionally- the latest fashion a few months early
What can I say? My uncle Lagerfeld – that major league lizard- loves me a lot.
@ Jay:
Right. They leave that out.
And it’s interesting how anti-vaxxers bring up FISS without mentioning that’s it’s quite rare.
They make it sound like it’s common and *proves* vaccines are dangerous.
I wasn’t intending to leave anything out Denice Walter.
That’s right. And it is the aluminum in those particular shots causing the inflammation. But, of course, that is the job of an adjuvant; It’s just that aluminum is a rather poisonous one.
Hmmm. I wonder if it’s like cheap corn-adjuvanted beer. I wonder if *real* shots have enought *goody* in them to not require the adjuvant.
An adjuvant isn’t “poison” because it’s doing what it’s supposed to do; stimulate an immune reaction. It is the act of inflammation, not specifically the adjuvant.
Since the arguing and bickering has settled down, I’d like to introduce myself into the thread.
My name is Aled, and i’m a medical student at the Cardiff University School of medicine.
The reason I’m here, and my interest in this discussion, is that I’m doing a thesis on Digital disruption, information gathering by patients, within the framework of conventional doctor/patient care.
I have got to say that the contributors here promoting conventional science/medicine, specifically the benefits of vaccines, are doing a pretty poor job of it.
Some here I believed are just trolls, who were not adding much to the debate on vaccines.
If someone opposes a particular area of medicine, in this case I think it was Don, then it’s not difficult to refute such contrarian claims.
Someone in reply, and I think that was someone called gaist, said that you cannot disprove a negative. That’s not an appropriate method of arguing, when you have all the scientific facts behind you. Also, it was a silly reply, to what would have been an easy point to put down with some scientific fact checking.
My concern with this blog, is that Laypeople come here seeking information about medicine, in this case vaccines, but are left annoyed, even disgusted at the level of discourse here. People come to forums like this to better inform themselves, and it is contingent on the medical contributors on this blog to have a rational, informative and polite debate.
i must say, this has got to be the worst website/forum on medical science I have come across.
Everyone here should left their game.
If this is the worst website on medical science you’ve come across, you sure must not have come across very many, and I mean that.
I’d also say that you’re incredibly naive if you think that it’s easy to refute antivaccine misinformation. Seriously. Show us how it’s done if we’re so bad at it. Refute the misinformation Don’s been laying down. Show us a better way, rather than just sniping from the sidelines.
@Aled: You appear to be quite young and inexperienced in reading about anti-vaccine tropes. We, on the other hand, have been reading and responding to many of them for years. And we get tired of repeatedly saying the same things, just to be called “phama shills”, “sheeple”, and worse. So yes, we do tend to be curt with those who pull the same old stuff we’ve dealt with, especially those who are “JAQ”ing off.
For the laypeople who come here who are curious and have real questions, we handle them gently and point them toward sites with polite information – CDC, Harpocrates Speakes, Science-Based Medicine. Orac’s blog *is* called Respectful Insolence for a reason. He gives honest information, but with insolence. You want kid gloves? Look elsewhere.
And tone-trolling tends to be frowned on here, too.
Yes, I rather suspect Aled is quite naive.
I did?
Here’s my comment:
I’m sure you’re familiar with the difficulties of proving a negative, so what level and type of evidence would you find sufficient? What one shred would you accept? And what would it prove?”
**
That’s me quoting Don (#70 on page 3). I perhaps should have included his previous sentence too: “Orac said the theory of immune activation was junk. I said “prove it.””.
Don did reply to me, but I’m still unsure what “single shred” of evidence would refute the whole theory. Maybe you could explain it to me in Don’s stead.
People come to forums like this to better inform themselves, and it is contingent on the medical contributors on this blog to have a rational, informative and polite debate.
“Contingent on”? When you are instructing anonymous commenters to dance for your entertainment, it may help to use English.
Or Welsh, I can cope with that. But not gibberish.
You want kid gloves? Look elsewhere.
Evidently “starting his own blog” is not an option.
Do all med students radiate this sense of entitlement?
Hello, Aled. I’m a Laypeople. I’m still here, and neither annoyed nor disgusted. I learn things all the time and am better informed for being here, so no worries.
“Do all med students radiate this sense of entitlement?”
I don’t sense entitlement, nor should it be considered inappropriate for a first-year med student to be critical of “medical contributors”.*
Hopefully his repeated references to “conventional medicine” are not a symptom of someone inclined to woo.
*Aled seems unaware that a number of regular contributors here are “laypeople” of varying educational status, who have in common keen bullcrap detection skills.
Speaking of Welsh people, has anyone heard from elbuerto recently?
And yet, ya’ll do have a tendency to negligently carry pharma’s water against cannabis and kratom. In one month since the kratom ban in Alabama, opiod deaths increased from 57 in may to 111 in june — Just in one county. This is just the start. Here lies the answer to addiction and ya’ll just piss it away. We understand that, as word of the plant spreads, big pharma stands to loose billions a year on antidepressants, analgesics, and pharma answers to their initiated addiction such as Suboxone and buprenorphine.
Ohh, but I just want to get high (something that doesn’t happen with kratom more than with the coffee of which kratom is a member of that family — Rubiaceae).
Pharma shills, indeed.
For all yall’s trotting out the travesty of vaccine preventable disease — What is the number of deaths there compared to the 129 a day dying of (mostly) prescription and illicit overdose?
nor should it be considered inappropriate for a first-year med student to be critical of “medical contributors”.
I consider it
inappropriatebuffoonishly stupid for anyone to turn up at a blog complaining that commenters are not commenting properly and insisting that they write the kind of comments that he (or she) expects.I understood elburto to hail from the North-East (judging from her lexicon of pejoratives). She did warn people that she was phasing out internet involvement.
HDB: Good to know! Around here I worry sometimes.
As for the medical student, I wonder if they would be so disapproving of our collective approach after a few dozen rounds with our sea-slug-like troll SN.
It was stated explicitly.
Why, oh why, do I look at AoA? The Dachelbot is now plumping for another SBS denialist. They also seem to be in some group-grope frenzy involving G—le and IANA or something,* but I couldn’t take too much of this idiocy. (Travis, however, it seems, is largely failing to garner much attention.)
* Net neutrality also sent some of them spiraling into oblivion, as I recall.
The Dachelbot is now plumping for another SBS denialist.
Meehan: ” I served as an associate editor for the Journal of Ocular Immunology. ”
There is no such journal.
Imagine my shock to learn that Meehan is a nutriceutical grifter.
Well, ORAC is true to his word — There is to be no discussion of breaking addiction, depression, and anxiety on this site.
Kratom, pharma shills.
Oh. And most importantly that it is efficatious is for pain. Why do pharma shills want people to be in pain? Do ya’ll take bitcoin for helping to relieve that? NO? Kratom, bitches.
sullenbode: You are aware that you don’t actually own this website?
[Orac note: This is Aled again. I don’t know why he switched his posting name to Health blair. I made an exception to my usual rule about banning anyone who uses a sock puppet because I don’t think he’s intentionally trying to deceive, but, man oh man, is he doubling down!]
My God.
I wasn’t expecting that.
You are criticising me?
“Naive,” “tone trolling,” “sense of entitlement” and even accused of poor spelling.
Well I went back to read what I wrote, and the only spelling mistake I found was in my last statement; “Everyone here should left their game.” When it should have read, “Everyone here should lift their game.”
But instead someone found a spelling mistake that did not exist, but missed that one.
Regarding tone trolling, I was not aware of this phrase, so I googled it.
It’s somebody who complains about the tone of the debate, and the words used in that debate, on a blog or forum. That may be true to some degree in my case, but it’s hardly a problem, considering the context I was using.
And of course you missed the other aspect of my comment (apart from the tone), was that was the CONTENT of my comments.
All I was saying, in a nutshell, was that everybody here should raise the level of debate, away from non sequiturs and ad hominem attacks, and stick to a civil debate around medical science. That’s all. Nothing more nothing less.
But then I get accused of all these words I’ve mentioned above, in quotation marks.
And somebody was not happy for mre using the word “conventional medicine.”
My God, what phrase would have me use??
Even doctors need to use the phrase, to differentiate themselves from natural/alternative/complimentary medicine., Yet somehow I was criticised for using that phrase, conventional medicine.
I don’t get it, remember I’m on your side.
Some admonished me, suggesting it was not easy to argue with the anti-vaccine people.
That is complete rubbish. Remember, you have all the science on your side.
Which brings me to another point.
Why is this forum/blog predominantly discussing vaccines??
Why aren’t the contributors here (including the Doctor who posts articles on this forum), discussing other aspects of medical science, such as the recent advancements in cancer research??
In closing, I will just say that this forum is the strangest, and weirdest forum/blog on medical science I’ve ever come across.
And herr doktor bimler, what the hell esoteric nonsense are you talking about???
I would suggest that it’s the over 50s here who are naive.
And I would hope that none here actually work at the coalface of medical/patient care, because God help the doctor-patient relationships if anyone here were to have direct contact with patients, given the appalling attitudes of some here.
But never mind, I won’t be back, I have many other forum/blogs to visit on the Internet.
However, I will bookmark this forum, and will include it in my thesis, because this blog/Forum has got be the strangest I have ever encountered.
Nice flounce, Health blair, Aled, or whoever you are, I predict that you will not stick to it.
Yes, I do have direct contact with patients, and I have some nice evaluations about my doctor-patient relationship. Sometimes my patients even mention my blog.
As for some of your complaints, perhaps the most clueless is this: “Why aren’t the contributors here (including the Doctor who posts articles on this forum), discussing other aspects of medical science, such as the recent advancements in cancer research??” First off, whenever someone asks “Why don’t you blog about what I think you should blog about?” (which, let’s face it, is exactly what you are asking), I usually tell them because I blog about what interests me and bugger off (to borrow a British expression). However, the fact that you would even write that means that you haven’t bothered to venture beyond the comments of this one post, because vaccines are not the only topic here, by far. Just a few recent examples:
All of these were posted within the last five weeks or so and show up on the front page of this blog, no need to click the “More Posts” link. If you had bothered to make a minimal effort to look at the front page and scroll down, you would have seen them. Seriously. As a senior surgeon, let me give you some advice, trained physician and scientist to trainee: If you’re going to criticize something (e.g., this blog) as being only about one thing (e.g., vaccines) and discussing about other topics (e.g., the latest cancer research), you really should actually verify that your criticism is accurate. You clearly didn’t bother, and this blog is far more than the comments section of a single post. Seriously, to echo your criticism right back at you, I really do hope, for your future patients’ sake, that you aren’t as lazy and careless studying your medical textbooks as you have been in your criticisms of this blog, because god help your patients if that’s the case.
Aled: “Regarding tone trolling, I was not aware of this phrase, so I googled it.
It’s somebody who complains about the tone of the debate, and the words used in that debate, on a blog or forum. That may be true to some degree in my case, but it’s hardly a problem, considering the context I was using.”
I’m afraid your google-fu is substandard. Tone trolling (a.k.a. concern trolling) is a focus on the perceived civility of a discussion to the exclusion of content, and is thus a distraction technique. At best it’s a pompous assertion of the superiority of the tone troller. At worst (and this is quite common) it’s an act of deception by a poster who sympathizes with a point of view but can’t/won’t defend it, and instead attacks the other side for violations of “tone”.
Think of it as a form of digital disruption.
Aled: “And somebody was not happy for (me) using the word “conventional medicine.”
My God, what phrase would have me use??”
Try “evidence-based medicine”. I gather from your comments that you fancy yourself to be a cutting edge doctor-to-be, and I assure you that requiring good evidence and reproducible research is as cutting edge as it gets in medicine.
And this differs from tone trolling how?
Obviously, this must be your first day on the internet. Welcome, youngling. Carry on and you will be amazed.
Some random medical student: “All I was saying, in a nutshell, was that everybody here should raise the level of debate, away from non sequiturs and ad hominem attacks, and stick to a civil debate around medical science. That’s all. Nothing more nothing less.”
My, you are not asking for much are you? You just want to control what other people do.
I knew someone like that in college. He just knew he was going to get into medical school. The problem was that he liked to control people, and that included making sure they believed his branch of religion and behaved in a certain way, especially if they were female. He actually got himself some followers.
So at his medical school interviews he said he wanted to become a doctor in order to control people to help them. Well that did not go well. He did not get into medical school, because apparently they prefer to train doctors that actually listen to their patients. Last time I saw him he was walking down the street with some of his followers: all women wearing long skirts.
Good luck in your studies. Sorry I can’t be there to see how well you do on oral exams and challenges. It is so much fun to be standing in the front of the room as one or a few people pepper you with questions as you try to defend your answers.
@ Chris:
Right.
And who is it that determines exactly what ‘civil ‘is?
This guy clearly hasn’t done much Internet surfing if he thinks this is one of the weirdest places on the Internet. I could post a few links to truly weird sites, but I’m afraid it might crack his fragile eggshell mind. (And, before Aled, of he comes back, complains that that’s an insult, he should do a little googling on “Jim Morrison” and “fragile eggshell mind” and he’ll realize I was making a Doors allusion.)
I suspect he wouldn’t get it, Orac. Heck, I’m nearly forty, and I didn’t get the reference.
I always knew it was from JM but had to search out the exact place.
Obviously, not where he says, ” Land Ho!”
See:
http://genius.com/The-doors-peace-frog-lyrics
I could have made it more obvious by including a reference to ghosts crowding his fragile eggshell mind, maybe the ghosts of forced civility. 🙂
The classic sign of tone trolling: Focusing like a laser on the faults of their “own side”, while completely ignoring everyone else.
I’m just wondering why Heath Blair made a ‘nym from the surnames of two of the worst Prime Ministers in British history (and they’re up a against some pretty stiff opposition for that title).
If it isn’t a pseudonym then he has my profound sympathies.
Well, the song did come out five years before you were born. 🙂
Not necessarily, O Esteemed One. I love 50s music and especially Buddy Holly. I don’t have to have seen or met him!
And herr doktor bimler, what the hell esoteric nonsense are you talking about???
It varies from day to day.
Heath Blair made a ‘nym from the surnames of two of the worst Prime Ministers in British history
Was Heath really that bad? You could argue that he created the conditions for Thatcher (through Conservative frustration with his own general approach of
appeasementcompromise and consensus). Is that what you had in mind?Herr Doktor.
You make my case for me. Doing my homework by candlelight did colour my political views somewhat; as did walking to school.past piles of rotting refuse which hadn’t been collected for weeks.
@Peebs
Listen to Me is my favourite Buddy Holly song!
He certainly has some incredible music.
@ORAC
Did you know that Jim Morrison’s dad was an Admiral associated with the Gulf of Tonkin Affair?
This has led some to speculate that he was an agent of the US War Complex used to distract the growing anti-war movement and placate them with drugs.
Sounds far out, but Dave McGowan has written a book on the issue. I am not entirely convinced in the Case of Jim Morrison, but it is not hard for me to imagine that certain musical artists are used for propaganda purposes.
I still like the Doors. Love Street is a terrific!
Seeing as though this blog is about a contest of quotes, I’ll join in.
“…I don’t think he’s intentionally trying to deceive…”
No, that’s correct, as I said, I’m going to use this blog/forum in my thesis, and as such, I need to use my real name, and not an alias.
“Yes, I do have direct contact with patients…”
I wasn’t referring to you Orac, in regards to medical knowledge/ability, and patient care, I was referring to the other members of this forum.
“Try “evidence-based medicine”. I gather from your comments that you fancy yourself to be a cutting edge doctor-to-be…”
Someone by the name of Dangerous Bacon, doesn’t like me to use the term; “conventional medicine.” I don’t use “evidence-based medicine,” because it’s so 1980s/90s.
Conventional medicine is appropriate today, to differentiate it from all the other alternatives.
But hey, you can say whatever you like.
I’m not going to take somebody seriously, who has a name like Dangerous Bacon.
And someone still believes I am “tone trolling.”
Ok, I’ll make it simple for the simpletons here; The discussions here should be more science-based than anything else.
Ok, you got it now?
And the best for last.
“This guy clearly hasn’t done much Internet surfing if he thinks this is one of the weirdest places on the Internet.”
I don’t mind you, or anyone else disagreeing with me, but to misquote me, and then make your argument around that misquote, is pathetic and childish.
And I’m being accused of being naive, and a “youngster.”
This is what I said; “I will just say that this forum is the strangest, and weirdest forum/blog on medical science I’ve ever come across.”
Did you see me use the words, “medical science”?
Orac, again you misquote me; …”the fact that you would even write that means that you haven’t bothered to venture beyond the comments of this one post, because vaccines are not the only topic here, by far…”
And this is what I said; “Why is this forum/blog predominantly discussing vaccines??”
Again, you see the word “predominately “?
I think that’s a fair description, considering the talk around vaccines that has dominated this forum/blog in recent times.
And when you Google “Orac,” guess which word Google’s predictive text suggests the next?
That’s right, vaccines.
From what I gather, you’re quite well-known in discussing vaccines.
The more I stay here, the more I think this site is stranger and stranger.
This site seem to have some characteristics of a cult.
I’m not sure how to place this into my thesis, but it’s so bad it’s good (if you know what I mean), so I will find some way of working into my thesis.
I just knew Heath wouldn’t stick to the flounce, and I was right! Let’s see what’s eating him now.
You know, if you’d actually bothered to read some of the links to recent posts here that I provided yesterday, you’d know that there’s a hell of a lot of science-based discussions here. Again, you are lazy and careless, and I really hope you aren’t that lazy and careless in your studies, for the sake of your future patients. Also, given that you have no problem calling my readers “simpletons,” you just lost whatever moral high ground you thought you had to complain about the tone here. Basically, you’re no better than you perceive the commenters here to be. Clearly, your concerns about “civility” are not nearly as principled as you like to portray them, given how easily you abandon them when mildly tweaked. Yes, I’m calling you a hypocrite, straight out.
I did, and my comment still stands. If you truly think this is the “strangest, weirdest blog on medical science” I repeat: You really haven’t gotten out much and are not very familiar with the medical blogosphere. You need to get out more, as it is clear to me that you are quite naive and have little experience.
Vaccines are a major topic here, yes. They’ve been a major topic here for the nearly 12 years of this blog’s existence. But the predominant topic? I’m not so sure about that. Whatever the case (and I’m not going to go back and count what percentage of my posts are primarily about vaccines, given that there are thousands of posts dating back to 2006, when this blog first moved to Scieneblogs. You’re giving annoyingly legalistic, hair-splitting answers, anyway. You want to think that vaccines are the “predominant” topic here, that’s fine. I make no apologies for that, if it’s true.
That’s funny. I don’t get “orac vaccines” when I type “Orac” into Google. I get terms like “Oracle,” “orac definition,” “orac scale,” and “orac blog.” (Yes, I’m “famous enough” that that last one sometimes shows up.) Heck, even when I just typed “orac v” in an attempt to force Google to show a predictive phrase of “orac vaccines,” I didn’t get it. I got “orac value” first. then “orac vitamin.” And that’s even though I’m using a whose browser is full of cookies from websites about vaccines and past blog entries, which means Google knows I’ve searched for vaccine-related topics before.
As for why I write about vaccines a lot, whether predominantly or not, it’s because the topic interests me, and I don’t give a rodent’s posterior whether you approve or not or think I’m “qualified” or not. In fact, I very much resent when someone like you tells me with self-righteous puffery what he thinks I “should” be blogging about. Basically, it’s not your call. I write about what interests me, and for anyone who tells me what I should and shouldn’t be writing about I have one message: “Piss off.”
“And I would hope that none here actually work at the coalface of medical/patient care, because God help the doctor-patient relationships if anyone here were to have direct contact with patients, given the appalling attitudes of some here.”
I spent 30 years at that coalface and was very good at the talking to patients lark.
Equating how I might choose to respond to jumped up, patronising gits of medical students or other varieties of eejit on the internet with how I spoke to my patients face to face is not exactly helpful or accurate. And I hope you don’t try talking to any other health professional face to face like that or you could really find yourself in difficulties…
*Wanders off muttering about how many junior doctors my sister and I bailed out or prevented from making huuuuuge cock ups over the years*
Heath blair,
#86:
“Someone in reply, and I think that was someone called gaist, said that you cannot disprove a negative. That’s not an appropriate method of arguing, when you have all the scientific facts behind you. Also, it was a silly reply, to what would have been an easy point to put down with some scientific fact checking.”
And while we’re on the subject of misquotations, is “to disprove a negative some sort of curious English phrase that means “to prove a negative?
Because to me, the two seem quite different, and disproving a negative seems easy* – if someone claims there has never ever been a vaccine trial involving a placebo, it’s trivially easy to disprove that.
Whereas proving a negative seems to involve lot more kerfuffle.
This might be just me, what with English as a
secondthird language and all that…* in principle, at least. Getting in contacts with it’s people and finding the time in Flying Spaghetti Monster’s busy schedule for an appearance for such trivial reason as proving something to heathen crowds seems a chore.
@Heath blair:
The term is “youngling”.
If you’re going to do a thesis on the internet, you had better up your quote game.
Also, you had better get familiar with Star Wars memes. Just sayin’.
@Heath Blair
Hi, Heath. I’m one of those laypeople that comes here for the science and stay for the entertaining (and well-informed) commentary. I also write one of those “polite” blogs mentioned by MI Dawn.
Can I give you some tips?
1) When you come into a new blog, before you start laying about with criticisms, make sure you read, extensively, previous posts and comments. You might find that some of your critiques are, in fact, false or unsubstantiated.
2) Every blog has a focus that interests the author. Likewise, they have a certain style. The topics and writing style will either attract or deter people from reading. And that’s okay. There is no pleasing everyone, nor is there reason to attempt such a Sisyphean task. If you do not like the topics or style, look elsewhere. The internet’s a big place.
3) You complain about “ad hominem” attacks, etc., yet you don’t appear to have read very extensively (see tip #1 above). If you had, you would see that the tougher language generally comes out selectively. When a new commenter seems to be interested in legitimate discussion and debate, willing to learn, then they are treated respectfully. Their questions are answered with due diligence. The gloves tend to come off when people reveal that they are not at all interested in honest discussion, but are rather only interested in trolling or otherwise hammering their pet ideas into everyone else.
4) The comment section is not the main article. Orac’s posts may have something of an edge to them from time to time, but tend to be quite full of good, science-based information on a wide range of medical topics. Granted, many of those topics cover the fringes of medical science, such as alternative medicine and other medical mythologies. But the science is there. It is merely seasoned with insolence. The comments, as with any similarly unmoderated/lightly moderated forum, can get a bit spicy. This should not come as a surprise. And it’s Orac’s light touch with the comments section that makes for some interesting conversations, as well as a lot of teachable moments. Yes, the regulars can get a bit snarky, but they, like Orac, stick to the science, even if their comments are also peppered with insolence. Which brings us to…
5) Welcome to the internet! You’ll need to develop a thicker skin if the rather mild response to your initial post, where you waltzed in here and told everyone else how they should talk/write. You followed that criticism by clutching your pearls (“You criticize me?”) and engaging in the very insults and attacks you so decried in the commentariat here. For example:
and later
That last one is the epitome of an adhominem attack.
If you want to be treated respectfully, perhaps you should start by not telling people what to do, insulting them, and then acting all surprised when people question you.
I appreciate that you think that discussions of medical science ought to be civil, respectful, and devoid of personal affronts. And there are forums out there that deliver that (indeed, there’s another blog out there that does just that, for which Orac also writes – but I’m sure you knew that with all the research you’ve clearly done on this blog). I also appreciate that you think that arguments should stick to the science, and that that should be enough. However, that is neither for everyone, nor is it realistic. And yes, it may pain you to hear this, but you are naive for thinking that. I, too, once believed that the only thing needed was the science, and all would be convinced. And then I gained more experience. I gathered more data, as it were, and realized that my initial hypothesis was wrong.
I urge you to stick around. Read more. Don’t take things personally. If you can’t get past the style to see the content, then this blog probably isn’t for you, and I wish you well on your search for something that’s a better fit.
@Todd W: the Other Blog can get pretty spicy, too, as you know…I don’t get over there all the time, but I’ve seen some uh….insolence….from the commentors over there. If Heath is insulted by insolent responses, he should go to a safe place like AOA. We all know that the comments there are all agreeable. 😉
And Heath: I was a healthcare provider for many years. I’ve changed direction and now do health insurance. But my patients always found me a good listener.
How about medicine vs. quackery? Or, to quote the great Philosopher Minchin –
Like Todd, I too am a lay person, except I come for the entertainment (and snark) and stay for the science and learning.
One thing I’ve learned is that, among the anti-vaxers and quack contingent, science means nothing to them. All studies that don’t support them are flawed, and all basic science that disproves their silly ideas is waved away with ‘But quantum….’.
If all our host and the minions wrote was snark and insolence, it would get really boring really fast. Look around and you will see that snark and insolence is backed up by science and citations. But there are times you just have to call an idiot an idiot, and a quack a quack. Around here, you find out why they are quacks and idiots.
Aled/Heath Blair: “I’m not sure how to place this into my thesis, but it’s so bad it’s good (if you know what I mean), so I will find some way of working into my thesis.”
I gather Orac is now supposed to be deathly afraid that an obscure med student thesis will be critical of his blog. While I doubt that’s the case, one hopes this thesis will reflect the quality of information available to patients from such sources, rather than the writer’s selective pique over “tone”.
“Someone by the name of Dangerous Bacon, doesn’t like me to use the term; “conventional medicine.”
I didn’t say you shouldn’t use it, only that I hoped your fondness for the term didn’t indicate a predilection towards woo. In case you haven’t learned it yet, EBM remains a highly viable and widely-used concept in today’s medical care.
“I’m not going to take somebody seriously, who has a name like Dangerous Bacon.”
I’ll take you seriously, even with a handle like “Heath Blair”. Though Disraeli Chamberlain would have been more entertaining.
“This site seem to have some characteristics of a cult.”
How original.
This is a classic rejoinder from frustrated alties (of whom our Heath may or may not be one). “Your science is just religion har har har” comes up frequently from those who quaintly believe it is the deadliest of insults (it’s puzzling that they seemingly despise religion so much*). A certain dim bulb has even written a lengthy online screed detailing his conviction that Science Based Medicine is a cult, based on his experience touting pseudoscience there and not getting a sympathetic response.
I must go now, for I have better things to do with my time.**
*even stranger in Heath’s case, seeing that “My God” is one of his favorite exclamations.
**thought I’d get that one in before Heath does.
@MI Dawn
Oh, I know, but comments are kept in check a bit more there than here. Heck, even poster presentations at science conferences can get rather heated.
“I’m not going to take somebody seriously, who has a name like Dangerous Bacon.”
See, DB, you need to include “Herr Doktor” in your nym, to remind everyone of your Teutonic pedantry and humourlessness. Then people would take you seriously, the way they do me.
I don’t have the energy to really do up the hilarity in this last entry, as the sadists at the local university hospital only schedule extended EEGs for first thing in the morning.* Nonetheless:
O RLY?
* I’m sure three hours’ worth of data on my being asleep will be a fascinating read for the attending.
==
I don’t have the energy to really do up the hilarity in this last entry, as the sadists at the local university hospital only schedule extended EEGs for first thing in the morning.* Nonetheless:
O RLY?
* I’m sure three hours’ worth of data on my being asleep will be a fascinating read for the attending.
^ Sorry, the cat is very clever with the keyboard.
And then there is another catagory; Plants which are known to work but are scheduled under the Controlled Substances Act so that there can be “no studies to show” — Allthewhile, protecting from competition drug companies who produce patented, poisonous analogs of the active components of those very same plants.
Gilbert…. this is the voice of Christmas Future and Halloween Present – Gilbert… move to Oregon…Gilbert, you’ll like it there…
Well, things have been very interesting at Portland, OR City Hall. A full riot:
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2016/10/portland_city_council_approves_27.html#incart_big-photo
And a thesis from a medical student in Australia, to boot. 🙂
The discussions here should be more science-based than anything else.
Neil Gaiman had some advice for “Game of Thrones” fans who want G.R.R. Martin to get a wriggle on and finish the next tome in the series:
http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/05/entitlement-issues.html
I’m not a member of the vaccine cult. I was attacked for merely suggesting that people should have a choice.
Apparently, letting people deny vaccines would be “unethical”. It would also be “irresponsible” since they would somehow pose a threat to fully-vaccinated people who should be immunized by the pro-vaccine paradigm.
So they admit that vaccines are not 100% effective to resolve this apparent paradox, which totally destroys the herd-immunity paradigm; which says that ~95% of people need to be immune.
This is impossible, since vaccines are not this effective. Herd-immunity must be abolished as something achievable, or their insistence that unvaccinated people pose a risk to the vaccinated must be discarded.
They can’t have it both ways.
You need very high efficacy for herd-immunity; so high that the unvaccinated would pose very little risk to the vaccinated.
The truth is that vaccines are not very effective at all and increase infections in some cases. Read this short article by a Medical Doctor who is very critical of vaccines. http://drsuzanne.net/dr-suzanne-humphries-vaccines-vaccination/
Some people even speculate that aluminum and mercury (mercury, duh) could cause harm.
@James Crawford:
Stop lying. You were attacked because you were rude, patronising and blatantly ignorant in your comment.
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2016/06/22/antivaxers-go-to-washington-to-persuade-rep-jason-chaffetz-to-investigate-the-cdc/#comment-448837.
The efficacy of vaccination has been proven, contrary to your pig-ignorant assertions. Letting people deny vaccines to their children puts the children at risk of diseases that can disable and kill.
FTFY.
Wrong, dunderhead. They factor for the level of vaccine efficacy when calculating herd immunity levels.
Let’s see. Smallpox: driven to extinction in the wild by vaccination. Polio: from causing thousands of deaths and cases of paralysis each year several decades ago to being endemic in only three countries. Rinderpest: driven to extinction by vaccines. Measles: recently declared no longer endemic to the Americas, thanks to vaccines.
Dr Suzanne Humphries has been discussed here before. If you are relying on her, you’ve lost already.
Mercury compounds are not the same as mercury, in the same way that table salt is not the same as sodium and chlorine. As for aluminium, there is more in a banana than in the entire vaccine schedule.
You probably imagine you’re oh so smart. In reality, you’re just spouting ignorant antivaccine tropes that the commenters here have seen and refuted literally thousands of times before.
Being yet another Fucklesworth sock didn’t help much, either.
James Crawford @144: Herd immunity can also be achieved through contraction of the disease. The difference is the quantity of suffering and death (Much, much less with vaccines).
Also, even having a disease and surviving does not guarantee long-lasting immunity.
So, no, you are incorrect. Please take a few classes and try again.
If you aren’t a sock. If you’re a sock, well, either you’ll fall through the wormhole in the dryer or you’ll get turned into one of Alton Brown’s yeast puppets.
“And a thesis from a medical student in Australia, to boot.”
That’s weird.
You trying to doxs me are you?
Haven’t you got better things to do?
If you really want to know, I have a proxy ISP.
I can’t miss an episode of Neighbours.
http://tenplay.com.au/channel-eleven/neighbours
And to the person who thinks they were so smart, in suggesting that I got it wrong, when it comes to Googling the words; “Orac,” and waiting to see what predictive text Google throws up.
Obviously, that person doesn’t realise that the Google algorithms work differently in other countries.
To whoever that person was, who’s looking stupid now?
But what’s the big deal anyway?
I was only passing opinion about Orac’s proclivity towards vaccines.
And you attack me like a bunch of piranhas.
I wonder what you would have said if I was anti-vaccine??
Oh, dear. It also appears that I missed a Fendelsworth sock puppet, Mr. Harris. I now rectify that oversight.
But anyway, the reason I came back to this weirdo “medical” blog, is that I’ve been asking around about a certain Dr Gorski.
And I discovered you’ve done something back in the 1980s, that could be regarded as unconventional.
Would you like to dox yourself now??
Given that I busy studying in college and medical school back in the 1980s, I can’t imagine what you found that I did back then that was “unconventional.” In fact, if there’s one thing I regret about my life it’s that in my youth I was very, very conventional—to a fault, actually.
As for your comment about “doxxing” myself, all I can say is: Geez you’re pretty clueless. Here’s a hint. You can find my name right here on this very blog if you just bother to look a little, and my real identity is about the worst kept secret in the skeptical blogosphere.
“Haven’t you got better things to do?”
“Well, do you…punk?”
Sorry, just trying to imagine Dirty Harry confronting a tone troll in an online forum. 🙂
“Obviously, that person doesn’t realise that the Google algorithms work differently in other countries.
To whoever that person was, who’s looking stupid now?”
Not particularly, I was in Cardiff on the day you mentioned Google results, first thing that came up was “Orac values” for anti oxidants. At the bottom, “Orac from Blake 7”.
The one who can’t stop digging, I suppose.
medical school, studying for exams, volunteering in clinics…you unconventional bastard
Heath blair @125:
And when you Google “Orac,” guess which word Google’s predictive text suggests the next?
Heath @149:
Obviously, that person doesn’t realise that the Google algorithms work differently in other countries.
To whoever that person was, who’s looking stupid now?
It would certainly be very stupid to invoke Google autocomplete as evidence, and to inform readers that they will all get identical results.
So who was that guy again?