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A “professor” who isn’t talks science about vaccines that isn’t

One of the great things about having achieved some notoriety as a blogger is that readers send me links to articles that the believe will be interesting to me. They usually come in waves. For instance, after anything having to do with Stanislaw Burzynski, “right to try,” particularly egregious antivaccine idiocy, and the like hits the news, I can be sure that well-meaning readers will send me or Tweet at me about the same article several times. (So don’t take it personally if I don’t respond; I get hundreds of e-mails a day.) Sometimes they’re wrong and its something that I have no interest in, but that’s just the price to be paid for being such an amazingly popular blogger. I know, I know. I’m basically a microcelebrity, if not a nanocelebrity. But to me, even eleven years on, that’s amazingly popular because I never expected when I started this whole crazy thing that I’d ever get more than a few hundred readers, if that.

In any case, when a reader sends me a link to something entitled Scientific Proof: Vaccines DO Cause Autism, it is, as I told that reader, not unlike waving a cape in front of a bull. Actually, it’s not, at least not most of the time, because so many antivaccine blogs post articles with similar titles. I could probably write about nothing but articles claiming to have the “scientific proof” that vaccines cause autism and still be able to produce at least three posts a week. However, when an article entitled Scientific Proof: Vaccines DO Cause Autism is posted on the Drinking Thinking Moms’ Revolution (TMR) and is as hilariously off base as this one is, well, it really is like waving the proverbial cape in front of the proverbial bull. At the very least, I know I’m in for potential fun and frustration deconstructing one of the Drinking Thinking Mom’s attempts to fancy herself an expert immunologist and neuroscientist. Basically, TMR is a wine loving, vaccine hating, coffee klatch of mommy warriors for whom the terms Dunning-Kruger effect and arrogance of ignorance were coined, and, believe me, the Dunning-Kruger is very strong here.

This time around, it’s Drinking Thinking Mom in whom the Dunning-Kruger is arguably the strongest, the one who calls herself “The Professor” or “Professor TMR” and uses as her avatar a photo of a teacher writing on the blackboard wearing a very short dress that shows off her black stockings and garters. I must confess that I never understood the choices, but, then, every regular at TMR likes to choose a ‘nym like Professor TMR, Dragon Slayer, Sugah, Blaze, Goddess, or Killah. You get the idea. Maybe it’s just because I’m a clueless middle-aged white male, and maybe I shouldn’t care, but it’s still odd to me. Oh, well. I chose as my ‘nym and avatar an all-knowing computer from an obscure late 1970s British science fiction television show. So I guess I can hardly talk.

Be that as it may, we’ve met the Professor before, and she is magnificent at laying down the Dunning-Kruger. Of course, that’s not a good thing, and unfortunately she’s just as magnificent here. First off, she seems very unhappy about a famous Tweet Hillary Clinton made trolling antivaccine activists:

The Professor’s reaction:

This is it: The Changepoint.

Can you feel it? The last 30 years have led inexorably to this moment when, for the first time in history, all the candidates remaining in the race for the presidency of the United States feel the need to clarify their stance on the use of vaccines – repeatedly and conflictingly. How did we get to the point where vaccines have become such a highly charged, controversial issue? After all, if vaccines are truly as safe as “they” say they are, wouldn’t anyone want a “get out of sickness free” card?

The truth? Of course they would. If vaccines were a truly “free” way to avoid illness, there would be no controversy, plain and simple. Everyone would be on board. That’s why vaccines have generally enjoyed the largely unquestioned popularity they have for as long as they have. Everyone wants to believe in magic. The problem is that, as the number of recommended vaccines and vaccine doses has climbed in the last 30 years along with their concomitant serious adverse events, it has become glaringly obvious that such avoidance of illness through the help of a hypodermic needle is anything but “free” for a large and growing segment of the population who are now living with chronic, often debilitating, illness.

I do so love how antivaccinationists conflate two different things, as the Professor is doing here. Vaccines are not “controversial.” At least, they aren’t controversial in the way antivaccinationists think they are. Hillary Clinton was correct about this. Despite many attempts over two decades to find a link involving hundreds of thousands of patients, no link between vaccines and autism has been found. To a high degree of precision and to the best of science’s ability to determine, vaccines do not cause autism, which is exactly the opposite of what the Professor is trying to argue. So where does the controversy come in? Simple. It involves questions of how far society should go to mandate vaccinations for children; i.e., how to balance the public good against individual rights to refuse. Society has clearly struck a balance in which it requires that children be vaccinated in order to be allowed to attend school and day care. It’s a reasonable compromise. Now, the controversy is over whether nonmedical exemptions (a.k.a. religious or personal belief exemptions) should be permitted. That controversy only exists because antivaccine views have led to an increase in nonmedical exemptions in many states, leading to pockets of low vaccine uptake, leading to degradation of herd immunity, and leading to outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases.

I’m not sure if this is an intentional or unintentional strategy in the Professor’s case, but antivaccine activists often try to conflate the political controversy over vaccine mandates with a scientific controversy. They then go on to argue that the reason there is a political controversy is because there is a scientific controversy over the safety and efficacy of vaccines. However, that “scientific controversy” is nothing more than a manufactroversy. Antivaccine “scientists” do their damnedest to generate “science” implicating vaccines in everything from autism to autoimmune diseases to sudden infant death syndrome to just about any chronic disease or condition that you can imagine.

This leads Professor TMR to do what antivaccinationists do so well, play the victim:

You all know in your heart of hearts it’s true. The mocking of CNN’s Elizabeth Cohen, her “journalistic” colleagues, and the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program Special Masters notwithstanding, there can be no other explanation for why the “myth” has persisted. The mainstream media would have you believe that everyone who believes that vaccines cause autism (at least one-third of American parents of children under 18 at last count) is a superstitious, anti-science nutcase. But if you actually dig deeper and investigate this claim, you will find that often the “all vaccines are magic” crowd is actively discouraging the sharing of science and factual information while at the same time disseminating a great deal of – what shall we call it? Misinformation? – justifying themselves with “you can’t handle the truth.” Those of us who think that vaccines come with some very serious risks that mean that everyone should be thinking long and deeply before taking any vaccine, on the other hand, actively share as much scientific and factual information as possible, while at the same time encouraging you to do further independent study on the subject. We want you to understand that large, epidemiological studies are easy to manipulate. (There’s a reason for Disraeili’s saying, “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”) We want you to look at who is funding the science, and ask yourself what questions didn’t they ask or answer? We want you to be aware of what the editors of the most prestigious medical journals and the Cochrane Collaboration (the least biased international repository for medical science) have to say about corporate corruption of science and the failure of peer review.

One can’t help but note that the Cochrane Collaboration houses within its organization at least one high-placed scientist who is profoundly skeptical of the influenza vaccine and has said things about it that border on antivaccine. Yes, I’m referring to Tom Jefferson. Heck, he’s even appeared on the Gary Null Show. I also see a lot of projection here. Professor TMR calls us the “all vaccine is magic” crowd, but that is more true of antivaccine loons like her. The difference is that she thinks all vaccines are black magic that causes autism and all manner of health problems. As for manipulating epidemiological studies, Professor TMR’s claim shows that she’s clearly never been involved in an epidemiological study. They are not nearly as easy to manipulate as she thinks. Protocols have to be approved by scientific review boards (SRBs) and then institutional review boards (IRBs), the purpose of the latter of which is to protect human subjects. Has Professor TMR ever served on an IRB? Clearly not, or she would know that SRBs and IRBs pore over the plans for study design, data collection, and statistical analysis. They look for any issues that might compromise the study. Truly, the ignorance of our “Professor” is breathtaking.

But our good “Professor” is only getting started. Here’s the part where she fancies herself an immunologist. Hilariously, she references a post on TMR by Twilight (here we go with the ‘nyms again) that is notable for throwing around a bunch of immunology terms, cites a bunch of studies relating neuroinflammation and autism, and concludes that just because there’s evidence that neuroinflammation is seen in autism that vaccines must be a cause. Seriously, it’s that simple. Or should I say, that simplistic? It might be fun to deconstruct the issues with that post in more detail, but not here. For purposes of this post, I just find it quite amusing that Professor TMR would cite such a source. Even more hilariously, Professor TMR invokes Vaccine Papers. Regular readers know that whoever is behind that execrable site has on occasion shown up in the comments here. I might just finally have to do a post about that website.

Professor TMR concludes with an analogy that shows just how little she understands science:

After our blog on Autism and the Immune System, Lisa Stephenson of Autism Revolution for Medical Intervention requested that we stop pursuing the link between vaccines and autism and suggested that by doing so we were sacrificing “all our children for the sake of the ones who have vaccine-induced autism.” I heartily disagree and will illustrate it with an analogy. Say that you have read the research linking smoking and lung cancer. You know it implicates smoking in a big way, but the tobacco companies are running successful interference, and you see people all around you who don’t know about the link and are subsequently developing lung cancer. Do you keep quiet about it because there are some people who develop lung cancer, like my own father, who have never smoked a day in their lives and you might be “sacrificing” those people “for the sake of the ones who have smoking-induced lung cancer”? Of course not! You speak up and inform people what their choices and actions may lead to and in the process help benefit the individuals, their families, society at large by enabling them to avoid the physical, social, and economic costs of serious illness. Then, if they still choose to smoke, at least they’re doing it with their eyes open.

Comparing vaccine manufacturers to tobacco companies is a favorite trope of antivaccinationists. Never mind that the real analogy would place antivaccine propagandists in the place of tobacco companies. They are the ones using the same techniques of spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt (a.k.a. FUD) about vaccines in the same way that tobacco companies spread FUD about the science showing that cigarettes cause cancer. Now here’s why Professor TMR’s analogy is so brain dead. Smoking increases the risk of lung cancer by as much as ten-fold, and the epidemiological evidence that it does so is bulletproof. In contrast, there is no solid evidence that vaccines cause autism and mountains of evidence that it doesn’t. The analogy is ridiculous on so many levels.

In the end, Dunning-Kruger triumphs.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

771 replies on “A “professor” who isn’t talks science about vaccines that isn’t”

This article is pure comedic Gold.

“…but antivaccine activists often try to conflate the political controversy over vaccine mandates with a scientific controversy.”

Would you care to give any examples?
Practical, referenced examples?

“Protocols have to be approved by scientific review boards (SRBs) and then institutional review boards (IRBs), the purpose of the latter of which is to protect human subjects.”

Oh really?
That’s why people have been screaming about the pro-vaccination industry, and why there’s never ever been any RDBPC on any vaccines.

And the most hilarious part was the end, quoting the Dunning-Kruger affect.
And who “triumphs”?? Ha ha ha.

Clearly the author of this disingenuous drivel, is the dumb (getting overconfident), while the intelligent Mr Burzynski is the one who’s doubtful and pessimistic.

But hey, keep it coming, this pro-vaccination maim and disfigure our children rubbish is just laughable.

That’s why people have been screaming about the pro-vaccination industry, and why there’s never ever been any RDBPC on any vaccines.

Perfect example of the logic of the anti-vax crowd… …they whine about protective measures.

And for your latter assertion, I’ll just leave this here (pdf)…

” The first, a pentavalent human-bovine reassortant, was christened RotaTeq®. In a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial (RDBPCT) involving 68,000 infants, a threedose series of this vaccine was found to be 98% efficacious against ‘severe’ rotavirus disease—that measured by emergency department visits or hospitalizations. It was approved by FDA in 2006.”1

“Rotarix®, featuring a live, attenuated human strain, was approved by FDA in 2008; its two-dose series was tested in a RDBPCT involving 63,225 infants and found to be 85% efficacious against severe rotavirus disease.”

PS, you do realize this article didn’t have anything to do with Mr. Burzynski?

I think and hope a different “changepoint” is soon coming–one that will finally result in the real physicians and medical groups actively coming unambiguously together against these dangerous ant-vaxxers. Point in case: Yesterday, the AAP (1) finally joined the AMA and AAFP in calling for all states to end non-medical vaccine exemptions, and, (2) they changed AAP policy to agree with physician dismissal of vaccine-refusing families (though probably because a lot of us were doing it out of necessity for our patients and didn’t care what the AAP thought). These actions should notch up the blood pressure of these AVers and hopefully make them act even more like the hooligans they are. Now if state medical boards will start taking action against publicly anti-vaccine doctors, and if the AAP will finally toss out their anti-vaccine doctors (as well as directly call out groups like the NVIC and frauds like Andrew Wakefield and his whole Vaxxed clown show)–then there is a large “changepoint” to drive right through the center of anti-vaccinationism.

@gaist “they whine about protective measures.”

Have you never heard of the the Hippocratic oath??
Do no harm??
But of course, doctors enjoy killing, maiming and generally destroying people’s lives, with corrupted medicine.
As long as we can drive European cars, and have all those capital letters next to our name.

“PS, you do realize this article didn’t have anything to do with Mr. Burzynski?”

Are you sure?
Take one of those Nootropics you’ve got in your pocket, and have a read again.
To subtle for you?

“Rotarix®, featuring a live, attenuated human strain, was approved by FDA in 2008;”
let me be clear, I was referring to the vaccines in question; MMR.
Do you have any RDBPCT on MMR??

Oh and don’t give him more BS from the FDA
Everybody in the world, including some Americans know that the Flunky Drug Administrator, is one of the most corrupt organisations in history of the human race.
Infested with pharmaceutical industry apologists, and rubberstampeders.

@Peter Dugdale

“I didn’t think we were going to see you again.
You still haven’t responded to the questions that were put to you in this thread:”

Well I thought your response, along with the other immature enablers, was so poor that I thought what was the point. I mean, the replies were full of ad hominem, and non sequiturs.
Someone even complained that I used the word customer, and not patient.
Do you know what the derivation of the word patient means?
It’s Latin for to suffer.
So it’s appropriate that doctors call them patients, because that’s what patients do when they visit doctors, they suffer.

@Chris Hickie

Doesn’t forcing somebody to have the vaccination, contravene the American Constitution, and your civil liberties??

To all the ugly misanthropes here.
Just yet another example of “do no harm”

“26,159 vaccine-associated adverse events were reported.”

“The group aged 0-5 years reported the highest rate of vaccine-associated adverse events (82/100,000 doses). The DTwP vaccine exhibited the highest rate of adverse events. Common minor events were: fever (17,538), reactions at injection site (4470) and systemic side effects (2422). Rare events (by WHO definition) reported were: persistent crying (2666), hypotonic-hyporesponsive episodes (3), encephalopathy (2) and febrile seizures (112). Severe events included: anaphylaxis (2), respiratory distress (1), multiple organ failure (1), sudden death (1), vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis (2), toxic shock syndrome (3), and sepsis (1). The 10 deaths and 3 cases of disability were investigated by an expert commission, which concluded that 8 of the 13 severe events were vaccination-related. ”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22334111

According to the link Peter thoughtfully provided, the 8 severe events thought to be vaccine related occurred after over 45 million doses of vaccine were given. That works out to a severe complication rate of 0.0000001768443071.

By contrast, measles infection causes pneumonia in about 5% of children, 0.1% get encephalitis and 0.1-0.2% die.

That’s ugly math.

@Dangerous Bacon

Rubbery maths.

26,159 vaccine-associated adverse events were reported, is
26, 159 to many!

DO NO HARM. . . Drop kick.

let me be clear, I was referring to the vaccines in question; MMR.

Let’s see..

You at #1: “There’s never ever been any RDBPC on any vaccines.

Vaccines in question; MMR? A vaccine not once mentioned in this article, nor in the original article at Thinking Moms, or even by you in your comment…

Couldn’t you have been clear right from the start? Would have saved you backpedalling and shifting goal posts…

Although I must admit that was impressively fast goal post shifting even for you…

Either that or your meaning felt too out of place and fragile, got scared and hid unceremoniously behind those two anys.

But of course, doctors enjoy killing, maiming and generally destroying people’s lives, with corrupted medicine.
As long as we can drive European cars, and have all those capital letters next to our name.

Nice Freudian slip, “doc”.

Well, well, Peter Harris. Since we’re all such nasty pharma shills anyway, how can you dirty your lily-white hands being around us? Don’t you have some marks patients to perform a walletectomy on?

Nice article, by the way. I’m glad you’ve learned to link citations. You notice that it was in Cuban children, and that most of the adverse events were fever? 13 severe events out of over 45,000,000 doses of vaccines? Not that any death or disability is good, but the risks of getting hit by lightning are greater than an severe event from a vaccine.

Actually, considering that the MMR started out as individual vaccines of measles, mumps, and rubella, there may not have been RDBPCT on the combination. But then, most doctors in the 1960s had seen all 3 diseases and knew what horrible effects they could have. All the doctors I knew were so happy to prevent those diseases, they gave the vaccines as soon as they were available. And, I’m sure most parents would prefer their kids get *1* shot instead of 3. As a kid, I would have preferred it – I found out recently (from my mother) that I got the individual vaccines when they first came out. My vaccine record only showed the MMR I got as a 16 year old.

My grandfather, a GP, was VERY pro-vaccine, having had patients die from the disease vaccines prevented. Yes, he lost money on giving vaccines instead of having patients get sick – one office visit and vaccine was less money than house calls daily for 1-2 weeks (or more if an illness spread through the whole family) and dealing with the health department to set up quarantines (he got paid for those, too). But then, my grandfather cared for his patients. Their health was more important to him than his pocketbook.

There are thousands of choking deaths each year among children and infants. By Peter Harris’s standards, that means its safer not to feed your children at all.

@Peter Harris: 26,159 vaccine-associated adverse events were reported, is
26, 159 to many!

DO NO HARM. . . Drop kick

Gee….and fever is 100% an adverse effect when you get the illness the vaccines prevented.

Fever, a sore arm, febrile seizures..those are adverse effects. Transient. But still listed. And the largest amount of those adverse affects you have your pants in a twist about.

Which of the illnesses the vaccines prevent have fewer effects than the vaccine?

Doesn’t forcing somebody to have the vaccination, contravene the American Constitution, and your civil liberties??

No one is being forced precious.

@gaist

August 31, 2016
let me be clear, I was referring to the vaccines in question; MMR.

Let’s see..

You at #1: “There’s never ever been any RDBPC on any vaccines.

Vaccines in question; MMR? A vaccine not once mentioned in this article, nor in the original article at Thinking Moms, or even by you in your comment…

Couldn’t you have been clear right from the start? Would have saved you backpedalling and shifting goal posts…

Although I must admit that was impressively fast goal post shifting even for you…

Either that or your meaning felt too out of place and fragile, got scared and hid unceremoniously behind those two anys.

A rather pathetic attempt at avoiding scrutiny.
RDBPCT on MMR???

“As long as we can drive European cars, and have all those capital letters next to our name.”

Nice Freudian slip, “doc”.

I was talking in the 3rd person, on your behalf.
Where did you get your education on English literature?

A rather pathetic attempt at avoiding scrutiny

That was my point. Was me accusing you of shifting goal posts too subtle?

You claimed there has been no RDBPCT on any vaccine. I spent less than 10 seconds googling to prove you wrong.

I was talking in the 3rd person, on your behalf.
Where did you get your education on English literature?

School. Same place I was taught that “we”, “us” and “our” aren’t 3rd person.

@MI Dawn

“Which of the illnesses the vaccines prevent have fewer effects than the vaccine?””

I have successfully treated all my clients, WITHOUT any adverse events.
Again, do any of you imbecilic avoiders remember your Hippocratic oath????

@Peter Harris #5

“Have you never heard of the the Hippocratic oath?? Do no harm??”

Just to point out the fact the Hippocratic oath contains no such sentiment. Most doctors today make the “Declaration of Geneva”, anyhow. I did.

“let me be clear, I was referring to the vaccines in question; MMR. Do you have any RDBPCT on MMR??”

But that isn’t what you said at all. You seem to suffer from memory problems, so I will remind you that you did say this: “..there’s never ever been any RDBPC on any vaccines.
So that wasn’t about MMR; in fact MMR had never been mentioned by Orac, nor even you. You just have brought it up now to deflect from the fact that you have been caught out in a blatant lie (when you claimed categorically there were no RDBPC trials on vaccines and were proved to be wrong).

You seem to be rather sensitive to criticism, complaining that the reason you never answered questions on the other thread was because someone was nasty to you.
I suppose your saying that
“doctors enjoy killing, maiming and generally destroying people’s lives” is just a bit of lighht-hearted banter then? No insults or adhominems there then, quite clearly.

You suggest Cuba’s experience of vaccination adverse event monitoring shows evidence of doctors’ desire to kill and maim people….
Here is what your cited study abstract says:

“RESULTS A total of 45,237,532 vaccine doses were administered, and 26,159 vaccine-associated adverse events were reported (overall rate: 57.8 per 100,000 doses). The group aged 0-5 years reported the highest rate of vaccine-associated adverse events (82/100,000 doses). The DTwP vaccine exhibited the highest rate of adverse events. Common minor events were: fever (17,538), reactions at injection site (4470) and systemic side effects (2422). Rare events (by WHO definition) reported were: persistent crying (2666), hypotonic-hyporesponsive episodes (3), encephalopathy (2) and febrile seizures (112). Severe events included: anaphylaxis (2), respiratory distress (1), multiple organ failure (1), sudden death (1), vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis (2), toxic shock syndrome (3), and sepsis (1). The 10 deaths and 3 cases of disability were investigated by an expert commission, which concluded that 8 of the 13 severe events were vaccination-related. CONCLUSIONS Low rates of severe vaccine-associated adverse events observed in this study underline the low risk of vaccination relative to its demonstrated benefits in Cuba.”

Considering this was the result of administering over 45 million vaccinations, I would think it truly remarkable that the doctors had only managed to kill or maim 8 children (0.000017%) of the vaccinated population.
Clearly they weren’t trying hard enough.

Vaccine-adverse event basically means that by the time it was discovered, the parents or doctor couldn’t prove what caused it. So the parents may blame the vaccine. My mom still asks me if I get sick how it happened, as if I can tell when a virus gets inside my body.

Vaccines are safe, and the fact that no evidence is ever presented otherwise that does not involve some kind of conspiracy lets me safely say that.

@gaist

“August 31, 2016
A rather pathetic attempt at avoiding scrutiny

That was my point. Was me accusing you of shifting goal posts too subtle?”

From my experience, after spending some time in the States, and witnessing the violence and gun culture, I found Americans to be cowards at heart.
Ok then, I’ll wait until this propaganda website specifically writes an article about MMR, and then i’ll put my question to you.
But my God, it must be too hard to answer that now huh.

@Zach

Quite clearly, you cannot read Zach. . .or have no prefrontal cortex. . . or both.

I’ll answer your question about MMR when you admit you made an unfounded claim and we corrected you.

I’m also not American. Nor a doctor. Nor do I drive an European car or put any capital letters next to my name.

@dingo199

“Just to point out the fact the Hippocratic oath contains no such sentiment. Most doctors today make the “Declaration of Geneva”, anyhow. I did.”

Sorry, continuing maiming and killing then.

“Considering this was the result of administering over 45 million vaccinations”

Thats an appalling attempt at conflating.

@gaist

“Nor a doctor. Nor do I drive an European car or put any capital letters next to my name.”

Then what are you doing here??

#turdinaswimmingpool

I have successfully treated all my clients, WITHOUT any adverse events.
Again…

Lucky for you being scammed isn’t considered an adverse event.

Then what are you doing here??

Here here? Pointing out your errors, it seems. Here here, watching my irony meter slowly melting.

“I have successfully treated all my clients, WITHOUT any adverse events.”

Only God is perfect, Mr. Harris.

@Gray Falcon
“Only God is perfect, Mr. Harris.”

Jesus was a Naturopath, did you know that??

Ok ladies, sorry cowards, it’s bedtime down here in the greatest country in the world.

You girls/guys just prove the old maxim; ignorance really is bliss.

Its spelt mum, not mom

Depends upon where one is. Don’t get out much do you?

And your science background is??

Biomedical with real degrees and lots of capital letters after my name.

Mr. Harris, where in the Bible did Jesus use narutopathy? He had miracles attributed to him, that’s not medicine of any sort. Now tell me, what gives you the right to claim “I have successfully treated all my clients, WITHOUT any adverse events.” Surely as a mortal, there had to be someone your medicine failed for.

In the last few days we’ve had quackturopaths referring to having “clients” and “customers”, which is revealing of the in-it-for-the-money mindset (although calling them “marks” and “victims” would be more accurate).

If vaccines were a truly “free” way to avoid illness, there would be no controversy, plain and simple.

There is something ironic about the “Professor” making this comment in response to remarks by Hillary Clinton, who is probably more acquainted than anybody else in the world with the concept of manufactured controversy–she has been the target of so many herself (partial listing: Vince Foster, Whitewater, Benghazi, e-mails), and the worst her enemies have come up with is that her husband had consensual sex with an intern and subsequently lied about it. Hillary knows how to deal with ridiculous-looking enemies. The “Professor” is just one more.

[email protected]: Perhaps Mr. Harris has walked on water at some point in his life. It’s not that hard to do; I’ve done it myself. Step one: wait for the pond to freeze over.

Chris @ #4

Further, I’d be totally fine with a Wakefield arrest & prosecution for profiting from his manufactroversy that threatens our health and safety against infectious disease.

If vaccines were a truly “free” way to avoid illness, there would be no controversy, plain and simple.

That’s a bit like saying: “If the defendant hadn’t committed murder, then why is he being tried for it?”

These actions should notch up the blood pressure of these AVers

The Dachelbot certainly began raving promptly:

This incredibly one-sided reporting is a foretaste of coming events. It sets the stage for a national law that eliminates any parental rights when it comes to vaccinations. . . .

. . . .

With the AAP now actively calling for the end of vaccine choice, Washington can respond by saying we should made it into a federal law. And this will only be the beginning. Once the exemptions are gone, full vaccine compliance can be made a prerequisite for welfare, Social Security, veterans’ benefits, unemployment — just about anything we sign up for.

“Where in the Bible did Jesus use narutopathy?”

In the gospels of ‘Nintendo’, ‘Manga’, and ‘Anime’, which were excised from The Bible in the 5th Century, along with other New Testament Apocrypha. This censorship of the True Word was, of course, skullduggery by the same Illuminati conspiracy controlling the CDC today. Like the Gnostic Gospels, the Naruto gospels “blend teachings attributed to Christ with teachings found in Eastern traditions” – in this case, revealing that Jesus was, in fact, a ninja (which explains the walking on water thing). The idea, then as now, was to keep the Secret of mystical Truth out of the hands of the people, allowing the overlords of ‘science’ to be the sole gatekeepers of what counts as ‘knowledge’, which is thus filtered to serve the interests of ‘yetzer hara’ (‘Final Boss’).

Do your research, Falscon!

“It sets the stage for a national law that eliminates any parental rights when it comes to vaccinations”

Needs a rewrite:

“It sets the stage for a national law that places childrens’ rights over parental privilege when parental action is harmful to their children.”

I like the Vaccine Papers website. The author doesn’t shilly shally or try to obfuscate. They make their reasoning clear and concise.

This means all the numerous errors in said reasoning are easy to spot.

Peter, you would consider a fever, reaction at injection site or crying to be more harm than rotavirus?

Peter Harris:

“…but antivaccine activists often try to conflate the political controversy over vaccine mandates with a scientific controversy.”

Would you care to give any examples?
Practical, referenced examples?

I take it you did not actually read the article, as it is responding directly to a specific example of that?

26,159 vaccine-associated adverse events were reported, is
26, 159 to many!

DO NO HARM. . . Drop kick.

But to allow greater harm by inaction is fine by you, eh?

“As long as we can drive European cars, and have all those capital letters next to our name.”

Nice Freudian slip, “doc”.

I was talking in the 3rd person, on your behalf.
Where did you get your education on English literature?

My BA in English literature says that’s first person. What you mean is that you were being sarcastic. We actually did know that, but a common response to badly-executed sarcasm is to intentionally take it as written.

While we are on the topic of grammar, shall we look at this next gem?

Its spelt mum, not mom

I normally abhor a grammar flame; it’s the whoopie cushion of debating. But even forgiving that you are objecting to a matter of dialect, it is quite impressive to see two grammatical errors in one grammar flame, especially one of just five words.

Regular readers know that whoever is behind that execrable site

FTFY. Is he still inconsistently trotting out the royal ‘we’?

Maybe it’s just because I’m a clueless middle-aged white male, and maybe I shouldn’t care, but it’s still odd to me.

Given Zoey O’Toole’s actual achievements, “The Professor” – versus, say, “The Former IT Flunky” – is quite the choice.

Mr. Harris, where in the Bible did Jesus use narutopathy?

We are all indebted to John Sladek for the observation that His last words were “Ailing, ailing, lemme see botany”.

it is quite impressive to see two grammatical errors in one grammar flame, especially one of just five words

You really only get one out of this. Partridge opines as follows:

“Purists prefer spelled for the preterite, spelt for the past participle; usage accepts either form in the preterite but prefers the shorter form in the participle.”

I have dealt with Petey before. He is a naturopath “Doctor”. He lives in this fantasy world. Science is meaningless and irrelevant. Hey Petey, do you not get that of the 26,000 adverse events 99.999999% were minor short term events like fever or soreness. Using the do no harm line is a joke. Surgery causes pain and the long term side effect of a scar. So should surgery be abolished because docs should not do any harm. It is a thoroughly stupid and illogical argument that is rooted in a Dunning Kruger dementia that you aren’t able to escape. You spend all this time going after the science that proves vaccines are safe but ignore the fact that you can’t present any real science they aren’t and the fact that you profit as long as people think your hocus pocus quackery works.

Once the exemptions are gone, full vaccine compliance can be made a prerequisite for welfare, Social Security, veterans’ benefits, unemployment — just about anything we sign up for.

Someone needs to tell the Dachelbot that full vaccine compliance is required for veteran’s benefits, given that the military is the only US demographic where vaccines are mandatory.

“Jesus was a Naturopath, did you know that??”

Good gawd, is this guy for real? He sounds completely unhinged and thoroughly ignorant. I’m gobsmacked.

Eric Lund: Considering their relative positions, the jury’s still out on whether it was consensual or not.

I checked. Vaccines are not mandatory for US military vets. That was debunked last year.
See metabunk.org Nov 2015

Mr Harris may assert that there were no adverse events among his customers.
.
We, in turn, can be confident that there were no cures among his patients.

Given Mr. Harris’ statement @17, perhaps he is a pathologist? (Or coroner, or medical examiner, or undertaker.)

That’s the only way I can see to avoid having adverse events.

Gilbert @55: Didn’t you hear that the InfoWars website got hacked and all the customer data is for sale on the dark web?
(It might only be the people who subscribe to the website and not the people who purchase items through the website, but are you prepared to take that risk?)

Well damn, JustaTech. I guess they know that I bought a vile of potassium iodine back in 2011 before the DEA cracked down on it.

The news comes on the same day that the FBI released information that election databases were also hacked in Arizona and Illinois.

“We have cross referenced the current dump versus our current db and it is data from an old breach that happened in 2012 and was dealt with at that time,” Buckley Hamman from Infowars told Motherboard in a statement.

https://www.rawstory.com/2016/08/alex-jones-infowars-site-hacked-50000-plus-users-info-now-available-in-digital-underground/

So, I take it you won’t be buying the shirt??

Gilbert: I wasn’t talking to you, dimbulb. Lewinsky’s never called it rape, but he was her boss, so the whole relationship is very questionable. Also, potassium salts aren’t drugs, ergo they don’t fall under the DEA’s authority. (Really, how dumb do you have to be to buy *anything* off their site? I’m really not surprised that computer security is another thing the admins fail at.)

This rulemaking changes the regulation of the listed chemical iodine under the chemical regulatory provisions of the Controlled Substances Act (CSA). The Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) believes that this action is necessary to remove deficiencies in the existing regulatory controls, which have been exploited by drug traffickers who divert iodine (in the form of iodine crystals and iodine tincture) for the illicit production of methamphetamine in clandestine drug laboratories.

http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/fed_regs/rules/2007/fr0702.htm

That’s the only way I can see to avoid having adverse events.

He’s a naturoquack.

Okay, Peter Harris, here’s my take on your words.

““Protocols have to be approved by scientific review boards (SRBs) and then institutional review boards (IRBs), the purpose of the latter of which is to protect human subjects.”
Oh really?
That’s why people have been screaming about the pro-vaccination industry, and why there’s never ever been any RDBPC on any vaccines.”
I’ve sat in on IRB meetings and your claim is 180 degrees from your imputation. When I worked on drug studies, I carried around a little book that contained relevant portions of the Nuremberg Codes, among other important documents relating to human experimentation. Why don’t you read it ????

“…pro-vaccination maim and disfigure our children rubbish…”
A well-chosen turn of phrase, that is if you are referring to the claims of antivaxers.

“Have you never heard of the the (sic) Hippocratic oath??
Do no harm??”
I’ve heard of it, and I follow it, except for the Apollo part. I’ve ever given anyone a poison (Shall we stipulate the obvious, trite, and mindless rejoinder??). I’ve never attempted to remove kidney stones but let urologists do it. Most important, I’ve never had sex with any of my patient’s slaves.

“But of course, doctors enjoy killing, maiming and generally destroying people’s lives, with corrupted medicine.”
As we said when we were kids, “Oh yeah, name two.”
” As long as we can drive European cars, and have all those capital letters next to our name.”
You must have a different kind of doctor in Australia. Like you, maybe. Otherwise your comment is specious, fallacious, and defamatory,vnot to mention ridiculously simpleminded.

“Doesn’t forcing somebody to have the vaccination, contravene the American Constitution, and your civil liberties??”
Outside of the military, first responders, and certain health professionals, no one is required to receive any vaccine. In a state of emergency there is what our laws call “compelling public interest”, which would allow the authorities to mandate vaccinations. This to my recall has never been invoked in the US, not even during the smallpox outbreak in New York City in the 1940s

“26,159 vaccine-associated adverse events were reported, is 26, 159 to many!
DO NO HARM…”
So you insist that every medication, treatment, and procedure be 100% safe?? Maybe they can achieve this level of perfection on Planet Harris, but here on Earth very little can be guaranteed to an absolute certainty.

“From my experience, after spending some time in the States, and witnessing the violence and gun culture, I found Americans to be cowards at heart.”
Trying to win us over with your innate charm, are you? If you’ve given up on trying to bring us around to your point of view, you must be taking charm lessons from Donald Trump.

“Jesus was a Naturopath, did you know that??”
Jesus, if he even ever existed, was reputed to be a deity. Deities work by different rules than mere humans. I sincerely doubt that any sort of god would lower itself by practicing naturopathy, unless we are discussing a deceitful god, like Loki or Laverna.

Now here comes the kicker:
“I have successfully treated all my clients, WITHOUT any adverse events.”
By which I deduce that you are either a liar or a pathologist.

Dimbulb: That doesn’t make it illegal, just harder-to -get. Same thing as with sudafed; you have to show ID, and you can’t buy more than a set amount at any one time. Also, since when do you care about rape, you horrible person? Why don’t you shoo off to reddit with the rest of the 12-year-olds going on 40?

“potassium salts aren’t drugs”
Sorry, PGP, but potassium iodide is a drug. Marketed as SSKI, it has a long history of use as an expectorant. It is also used to protect the thyroid by iodine saturation in nuclear events.
I have used it as patient and prescriber, and at the time of the Chernobyl accident I obtained my hospital’s last bottle and dosed my wife and myself with it.

“”That doesn’t make it illegal, just harder-to -get.

I’ll say. four dollars for a pint (sourced locally) went to ten dollars for an ounce around here.

Same thing as with sudafed; you have to show ID, and you can’t buy more than a set amount at any one time.

Really? Wow. I guess you know what a ‘smurf’ is then.

@ Narad @ Calli Arcale

Its spelt mum, not mom

I agree with Narad, only one error, but not for the same reason. I’d say “mum” is an acceptable alternative spelling for “mom”.

I’d never use “spelled” as the simple past tense of “spell” unless we were discussing the Wizard of Oz. I think “spelled” as the past tense of “spell” is one of those abominable Americanisms. I know it certainly grates on the ear.

Narad:

You really only get one out of this. Partridge opines as follows:

“Purists prefer spelled for the preterite, spelt for the past participle; usage accepts either form in the preterite but prefers the shorter form in the participle.”

I’m actually fine with “spelt”. As with “mum”, usage varies regionally. It was the homophone error (“its” versus “it’s”) and the lack of closing punctuation that I noticed — those are wrong everywhere.

Bob @ 64 — yeah, that prosecutor is being called a “game changer” to vaccination policy. Texas essentially has this guy as a medical poster boy blowing the dogwhistle on mainstream media, notably the NBC affiliate.

I just had to post this here for those who adore “citizen scientist” ciaparker. This is what she just said:

My uncle fell asleep in the sun and woke up with schizophrenia. Heat pulls stored vaccine mercury from the bones and looses it to cause symptoms. All schizophrenia patients tested to date have been sky-high in mercury. I got the first symptoms of MS after a high fever. My daughter got the first symptoms of bowel disease after a summer flu with a high fever when she was seven. My Asperger’s nephew got bowel disease after a high fever from bronchitis. We all have an inability to excrete vaccine mercury, which was stored in our brains and bones. Environmental heat or fever pulled the mercury out and we got the first symptoms of our MS, bowel disease or schizophrenia within days after the exposure. The symptoms of MS and autism are identical to those of mercury poisoning.

http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/hpv-vaccine-effectiveness-cervical-cancer-rate-halved/

I’d say “mum” is an acceptable alternative spelling for “mom”.

Absolutely and funnily enough oft used in my household. But Peter Harris said that was the only way to spell it.

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