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No, there is no evidence that Hillary Clinton has Parkinson’s disease

Remember Vox Day?

Vox Day is the pseudonym used by a truly vile man named Theodore Beale. I first encountered him 11 years ago on the precursor to this blog, thanks to his antivaccine stylings and outright misogyny. Later, I learned the depths of his wingnuttery, such as his accepting pseudoscientific claims that vaccines cause sudden infant death syndrome, and several others. Hilariously, his anti-science rants are inevitably accompanied by smug posturing about how scientists are arrogant (pot, kettle, black) and how science is a corrupt system that is ideologically driven (talk about projection). Basically, he seizes on any criticism of how science is practiced as an excuse to attack science itself. That doesn’t even take into account his odious suggestion, ten years before Donald Trump made it, that we should forcibly eject 11 million immigrants here illegally, because, hey, it worked for Hitler. It was a “classic” that briefly made Vox too much of a wingnut for WorldNetDaily. Sadly, the Overton window appears to have shifted, such that Vox would no longer be too much of a wingnut for many publications.

It’s not surprising, then, that Vox is a Donald Trump supporter.

Also, given his history of accepting any crank science or medicine that fits into his preconceived world view, that Vox has also jumped onto the “Hillary is unfit to serve” bandwagon. Three weeks ago, I noted two very unhelpful and bordering on despicable misuses of medicine, both involving armchair diagnoses of political candidates. First, there was the tendency of those on the left to assign psychiatric diagnoses to Donald Trump. That was bad enough, but what Trump supporters were doing was arguably worse, namely insinuating all sorts of dark conspiracies to hide serious illness in Hillary Clinton. The “evidence” used upon which the various “diagnoses” assigned to Clinton has been risibly lean, but that didn’t stop wingnuts like Dr. Jane Orient and Dr. Gerard Gianoli, both of the crank doctors’ organization the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS). Basically, based on pure speculation, they did some fine JAQing off and asked if Clinton had post-concussive syndrome from a concussion and a cerebral venous thrombosis suffered after falling when she was ill with the flu in 2012 and from which she appears to have made a full recovery. There have also been insinuations that she has Parkinson’s disease, based on…basically nothing.

I guess it should come as no surprise that Vox is totally down with that observation because…”experts.” It’s hilarious to me how Vox castigates legitimate experts who point out that his beliefs are nonsense, but says this about people who support his beliefs, like Dr. Ted Noel, an anesthesiologist who has concluded through a fair amount of contortions of logic, that Hillary Clinton “probably” has Parkinson’s disease:

That is the conclusion of a a board-certified Anesthesiologist with 36 years of experience, backed up by the observations of a) a victim of Parkinson’s Disease and b) a registered nurse who cares for patients with Parkinson’s Disease.

First off, being a “board-certified anesthesiologist” has little or nothing to do with expertise in neurology or Parkinson’s disease. Yet, note how Vox emphasizes that he has 36 years of experience, presumably at anesthesia. I’m sure he’s a perfectly capable anesthesiologist, but he’s no more qualified to diagnose Parkinson’s disease than any other non-neurologist, probably less, given his high degree of specialization. Yet, none of that stops him from posting a ridiculous video:

And an equally ridiculous article to go with it:

Noel is hilarious. He claims that he does “exactly what the CIA” does and looks at publicly available records to determine if there is a story that fits the observations. Here’s the problem. He gets the method backwards in that what he does is to start with the story he wants to tell and then cherry picks bits of information and video to weave together to tell that story, namely that Clinton has Parkinson’s disease. He begins with the standard conspiracy theories, going back to 2005 when Clinton fainted onstage. Particularly silly is one point where Noel recounts an episode where Clinton fell down and struck her head, noting that to strike your head falling requires a “complete loss of protective reflexes” and that dehydration from an illness isn’t enough to do it:

It explains every one of the items listed above. Further, since it is a diagnosis primarily made by observation, the video record is sufficient to create a high degree of certainty.

The 2009 fall where HRC broke her elbow suggests that she had working protective reflexes, and her arm took the brunt of the fall. But three years later, she had a catastrophic fall where her reflexes were unable to help her. It is notable that this fall took place at home, where she would have been unstressed and in a familiar setting. Failing reflexes are common in PD. Poor balance is also common in PD, and a fall without working protective reflexes is a prescription for head injury. Her subsequent concerns with transverse sinus thrombosis are plausibly related to the fall. Her need for fresnel lens glasses also fits with post-concussion syndrome.

Uh, no. It happens all the time. People fall and hit their heads. Noel is really stretching here. There were a total of three falls, and Noel stretches to claim that the first one was due to early Parkinson’s, the second one due to a Parkinson’s freeze. Noel keeps going on and on about how “I am not her treating physician” but that Parkinson’s is the most likely explanation for Clinton’s behavior and that she is a politician who “lies about everything.”

His next bit of speculation is that a month after Clinton’s concussion she was experiencing occasional confusion, which he at least concedes is not uncommon after a concussion, but then he goes full on conspiracy wingnut. For instance, he shows video of Clinton nodding her head, pointing to that as evidence of Parkinson’s disease. Never mind that it’s something she’s done for a very long time, going back to the 1990s. To Noel, this isn’t just an odd tic; it’s a Parkinson’s tremor. Now, I’ve seen Parkinson’s tremors. Not surprisingly, Noel pulls up the video of Hillary with an exaggerated startle response, which Noel attributes to levodopa-induced dyskinesia. No, it’s not. I find it quite telling that nowhere in the video does Noel show video of actual Parkinson’s disease tremors or levodopa-induced dyskinesia to compare with Hillary Clinton’s movements. If he did, it would become obvious that Clinton’s behaviors are neither of these things.

Then there’s this:

PD is a chronic disease with a downhill prognosis. HRC’s instability and frequent cough suggest that her PD is advanced. This is not a good outlook for someone running for the Presidency. The office of the President is one of the highest stress jobs in the world. Stress sets off PD episodes, which render the sufferer incapable of proper response.

At this point, a bit of speculation seems appropriate. HRC talks about her yoga sessions. But no one we know of has ever documented one. It is possible that this is cover for sessions designed to teach her coping mechanisms for PD or for rest breaks. Exhaustion makes PD worse.

HRC’s coughing suggests that her swallowing disorder is advanced, placing her closer to an aspiration pneumonia that would disable or kill her. That’s bad enough, but PD has one more, even more dangerous step in its progression.

As PD continues, cognitive problems can develop. In time, they become full-blown dementia. The United States cannot survive if its President is mentally impaired.

Yes, the cough thing. Since I last wrote about this, conspiracy theorists have started to point out that Hillary Clinton coughs a lot. That’s prompted me to point out that I, too, cough a lot, because I have seasonal allergies and frequently get bronchitis in the wintertime and have for as long as I can remember. People who have seen me give talks certain times of the year probably noted that I usually had at least a low grade cough. Now think of it this way. Clinton has been on the campaign trail for over a year and a half, giving as many as several talks a day and, when not giving speeches, is forced to speak with campaign staff, donors, and others. So what if she has a cough? I bet if you looked hard enough you could find video of Donald Trump coughing or, going to past elections, Barack Obama or Mitt Romney coughing. Constant public speaking can do that.

No one seems to be asking if Newt Gingrich has Parkinson’s, even though he coughed as he wondered if Clinton’s coughing meant she was seriously ill.

Parkinson’s disease is indeed a serious, progressive, degenerative neurologic disease. Perhaps the best indication that Clinton almost certainly does not have Parkinson’s disease is how carefully Noel and the peddlers of this particular conspiracy theory had to cherry pick video of Clinton to find brief snippets that they could point to as Parkinson’s-associated tremors, “brain freeze,” and levodopa-induced dyskinesia. As Steve Novella, a board-certified neurologist, pointed out when I was on The Skeptics’ Guide to the Universe three weeks ago, the exaggerated startle response pointed to by Noel is not a Parkinsonian freeze, nor was it dystonia or a seizure. As Novella points out, Parkinson’s is an “across the room” diagnosis that is easy for a trained neurologist to recognize, particularly if it is advanced, which, remember, is what Noel is claiming.

Ever wonder why none of these videos shows actual patients with Parkinson’s disease with dyskinesia or resting tremors for comparison? (And, no, a static photo of Michael J. Fox looking “bug-eyed” doesn’t count.) Ever wonder why, out of literally thousands of hours of video of Hillary Clinton taken over the last two years and then before, when she was Secretary of State, that these few snippets of video that can be tortured to sort of look like Parkinson’s disease symptoms are the best that Dr. Noel (and before him, Martin Shkreli and Dr. Jane Orient) could come up with? Did you ever wonder why not a single board-certified neurologist has stepped forward and say, “Yeah, that looks like Parkinson’s”? The reason is simple. It doesn’t. Those startled looks are not dyskinesia, and that head bob is probably a nervous tic, not resting tremor. Seriously. Advanced Parkinson’s disease is not something you can hide when you’re on video hundreds, if not thousands, of hours a year. It’s just not. the very fact that these few snippets of video are the best that the conspiracy mongers can come up with is excellent evidence that Hillary Clinton does not have Parkinson’s disease. If she had Parkinson’s disease, it would have been noticed long ago by someone other than a greedy pharmaceutical entrepreneur, the CEO of a crank physician organization, or an anesthesiologist with a political agenda who asks near the end of his video about who would run the country if Hillary Clinton were incapacitated and then shows a photo like this:

Bill Clinton

Yep, he insinuates. It’ll be Bill Clinton running the country again. Of course, the Constitution declares the line of succession, and if Hillary Clinton were elected and were to become incapacitated, her Vice President, Tim Kaine, would assume the duties of the Presidency, Dr. Noel’s insinuation that if he were to do so the Clintons would “lose their juice,” not withstanding or his “question” wondering whether Clinton had a “freeze” during the Benghazi attack and that’s why it was such a disaster. (I just knew he’d manage to work Benghazi in there somewhere.)

Insinuations about the health of political candidates and leaders is nothing new. However, these conspiracy theories about Hillary Clinton’s health from the fever swamps of Alex Jones territory take it to a level I do not recall ever having seen before. No wonder Vox Day eats them up. As brilliant as he thinks he is, he is the living embodiment of the Dunning-Kruger effect and the arrogance of ignorance.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

594 replies on “No, there is no evidence that Hillary Clinton has Parkinson’s disease”

He asks the question at the video, while apparently never realizing that the Constitution has already provided the answer.
He also claimed that having a POTUS with dementia would be fatal to the nation, yet we somehow managed to survive Reagan.

Frankly, as far as I’m concerned, every physician who wants to diagnose a candidate from online videos and even television videos in a diagnosis that’s far afield of their specialty should have their state board take a shredder to their license.
For one, they’re trying to diagnose something outside of their field of expertise, based upon low resolution video clips. That shows a mind boggling lack of good judgement.

My response:

Dear Dr Noel – I’m so embarassed that you apparently spout off all this nonsense not realizing that the Constitution has already stated how issues of succession are to be managed. Sorry to ruin your fantasy, but no, Mr Clinton would not take over if Mrs Clinton becomes incapacitated. The Vice President would. (Surely you are old enough to remember Nixon’s resignation – Gerald Ford, who was VP, was sworn in, not Pat Nixon).

And diagnosing someone without having them as your patient is very unprofessional. Or else, that means I can diagnose you with delusions of grandeur and possible flights of fancy, maybe from exposure to too many anesthesia drugs.

Lay off the nitrous, doc, and do your job. Let Hillary’s actual personal physician do their job.

Well, nitrous oxide does deplete vitamin B12, which can cause psychiatric issues… 😉

Seems like every year the White House releases the results of the current Presidents annual physical exam (e.g. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/03/08/us/politics/document-president-obama-medical-exam.html?_r=0 ) .

Is this a requirement that the President have an annual physical and that the results be publicly disclosed? And (somewhat cynically) would what is disclosed necessarily be complete and accurate given the concern that enemies of the US might try and exploit a medical diagnosis of the President if disclosed?

I too have been annoyed at the armchair diagnosis of Trump for two reasons. It gives him an out to explain his behavior and vilifies people with similar diagnoses. Trump is an evil, racist bigot without a shred of human decency. His ability to convince others to agree with him is far more worrying than finding a root cause.

From an insurance company website: “More than 662,000 of adults who suffered from falls in 2010 [in the USA] were hospitalized due to non-fatal fall injuries.”
People tumble at their homes like bowling pins all the time, but Clinton’s accident was because of Parkinson’s… Makes sense.

Obviously, looking at her birth certificate did not work this time.

#6, my wife took a spill in the house a week ago. Maybe we should show case reports and a hashtag, #NotParkinsons.
For her, it’s herniated discs, a misstep and a poorly placed treat jar.
A couple of weeks before, I took a spill, as the cat was overjoyed to see me and knocked my cane out of my hand as I was just ready to put weight on it. #NotParkonsons.
The cat took a spill, when misjudging the distance to the chair. #NotParkinsons
A Carolina Anole was climbing up our sunroom window and lost his footing, #NotParkinsons.

Falls are rather common and rarely due to one single medical condition.

@ MI Dawn
I am quite disappointed to learn that Monica would not take over if both Mr and Mrs Clinton become incapacitated.

Orac got it wrong.

This doctor who has diagnosed HRC’s hidden illness is a “board-certified Anesthesiologist with 36 years of experience”

Now if he wasn’t board-certified I might doubt she has Parkinson’s, but you can’t argue with board certification. I also know of a tree specialist certified by the International Board of Arboriculture who has come to the same conclusion.

I’d take a Clinton with poor health (even if such were true) over the little-fingered One.

There are also much worse things than Clinton filling in for Clinton in spite of how silly this is–as pointed out above. It would make more sense than Melania filling in for He who has not really given us ANY health-related information.

As a board-certified anesthesiologist, I can state quite confidently that the American Board of Anesthesiology frowns upon any of its diplomates diagnosing a patient without doing a comprehensive history and physical examination. Moreover, I suspect that my board would agree that diagnosing a patient with Parkinson’s Disease is outside our scope of practice.

That’s very likely true, but if you have an MD, state laws don’t really restrict your license to practice. If an anesthesiologist wanted to start treating Parkinson’s patients, he could, although it’s unlikely insurance companies would pay him for it or hospitals would accredit him to do that.

@DB

Don’t forget to emphasize the 36 years of experience. That’s the same argument Dr. Jay uses to back up his fact-free assertions, and we all know he’s spot on.

I’m reminded of another conspiracy theory bandied about: that Clinton pays off her doctors to report a clean bill of health, and anyone who might disclose anything to the contrary is killed. There are whole websites devoted to the alleged “trail of bodies” left behind by the Clintons.

You are being willfully blind and it makes a blog called “scienceblogs” look exactly the opposite.
It took all but an hour to thoroughly research Parkinsons symptoms and review all the photos and videos of Hillary acting strangely. Although a diagnosis cannot be made, there is ample evidence that she has Parkinsons. She even uses known coping mechanisms. The symptoms line up extremely well.

At the very least the public deserves a real medical report, and a recent one. I wager she will never ever release this because she doesnt in fact have Parkinsons. No one can look at that head bobbing video and with a straight face tell me there is nothing seriously wrong with her.

That last thing in the world I want to see is Trump elected, but if Hillary is being power hungry and selfish, doesnt step aside in time, is discovered and Trump wins im going to be pissed. If she stepped aside now, Sanders would win in a landslide. She could give this race to the Republicans by hiding her disease until its too late.

If she starts head bobbing and freezing like a moron when Trump viciously attacks her during the debates, its all over. If she has Parkinsons and is having a bad day, debating Trump is a nightmare scenario for her. It would trigger tremors, etc. Probably why she has been avoiding news conferences like the plague.

You are being willfully blind and it makes a blog called “scienceblogs” look exactly the opposite.
It took all but an hour to thoroughly research Parkinsons symptoms and review all the photos and videos of Hillary acting strangely. Although a diagnosis cannot be made, there is ample evidence that she has Parkinsons. She even uses known coping mechanisms. The symptoms line up extremely well.

No, they don’t. Ever wonder why none of these videos shows actual Parkinson’s disease patients in action for comparison? (And, no, a static photo of Michael J. Fox looking “bug-eyed” doesn’t count.) Ever wonder why, out of literally thousands of hours of video of Hillary Clinton taken over the last two years and then before, when she was Secretary of State, that these few snippets of video that can be tortured to sort of look like Parkinson’s disease symptoms are the best that Dr. Noel (and before him, Martin Shkreli and Dr. Jane Orient) could come up with? Did you ever wonder why not a single board-certified neurologist has stepped forward and say, “Yeah, that looks like Parkinson’s”? The reason is simple. It doesn’t. Those startled looks are not dyskinesia, and that head bob is probably a nervous tic, not resting tremor. Seriously. Advanced Parkinson’s disease is not something you can hide when you’re on video hundreds, if not thousands, of hours a year. It’s just not. the very fact that these few snippets of video are the best that the conspiracy mongers can come up with is excellent evidence that Hillary Clinton does not have Parkinson’s disease.

Remember twenty years ago when everyone was insinuating that it was Hilary running the White House.

Eric: your argument appears to boil down to “I think she has Parkinsons, so you’re all idiots.” Would you kindly go tell Steven Novella that? He’s a neurologist, the discipline that actually and in fact diagnoses people with Parkinson’s, as opposed to an anesthesiologist, the discipline that keeps people comfortable and alive during surgery.

MI Dawn:
“Sorry to ruin your fantasy, but no, Mr Clinton would not take over if Mrs Clinton becomes incapacitated. The Vice President would.”

To give him the absolute barest thinnest benefit of the doubt, he might be remembering FDR. He was in very bad shape towards the end of his presidency, due to post-polio syndrome, and his wife Eleanor quietly handled a lot of business for him. This was kept out of the public eye just as much as his illness was, to avoid people losing confidence in the President during wartime.

Except I suspect that if Noel is anything like Vox Day, this is not the case. Vox Day is a notorious misogynist; he does not believe it possible for a woman to run the country, therefore she must be a front for a man. (And, of course, he takes pains to reference his philandering too. Because we don’t want a philanderer in office. We should vote in a serial monogamist who surrounds himself with beautiful women other than his wives, and who publicly lusts after his own daughter instead, I guess, because surely that man isn’t a philanderer. Or something.)

GiJoel — yeah, that thought occurred to me to. It’s rather amusing irony. 😉

No one can look at that head bobbing video and with a straight face tell me there is nothing seriously wrong with her.

If you look at the video, especially individual frames, one can see any number of people with distorted looks on their faces. Does everyone have some kind of neurological disorder? These attempts to diagnose politicians they don’t like is asinine. I don’t know who’s worse, numpty laypeople like Eric S here or physicians using their non-expert credentials.

I’m surprised there aren’t more diagnoses for Clinton based on the countless hours of video evidence available to the public. You know, for the important stuff like secretly practicing satanism, being born in Kenya, or actually being a lizard person or whatever the current conspiracy fads might be. With enough cherry picking, anything is possible.

Wait. Weird movements on one side, bizarre hair on the other, cunning conspiracies all over and everyone secretly being aliens… that’s it! Clinton is secretly Trump! It all makes sense! They’re really the same person, and the entire presidential election is nothing more than one grand conspiracy to put Clintrump in the oval office no matter who wins! Rise up, people of the United States! Rise up and safeguard our democracy!

Hey, that explains the short fingers! 😉
He’s really a she or she’s a he or something.
Yeah, or something. 😉 *

*When I close with “Or something”, see that wheelbarrow full of hyperbole over there. 😉
Or something.

The quickest way to determine whether this is nonsense – or not – is to shoot and post video of a clinical test where Hillary is subjected to strobe lights.

Ah, but doesn’t a press conference quite resemble a strobe light test?
Especially for Trump, for the lights start flashing whenever he says something outrageous, which is… Always.

Oh, USAToday had a series of interviews in solid red voting counties, with plenty of disgust from the voters. A choice between Trump (yack!) and Clinton (no way!) and “I don’t know what I’ll do, but not Trump”.

In other disturbing news, a teen wants to refuse further treatment of her terminal condition, as she’s constantly in pain and only one end in sight, alas, special interest groups are fighting (complete with CPS calls) and an autistic child was murdered by his mother, while she was intoxicated on Meth. Once she sobered up, she admitted to the crime and expressed extreme horror and disgust in her own actions.

And diagnosing someone without having them as your patient is very unprofessional.

But sadly, not unprecedented, including the part about using such a diagnosis for political purposes. Recall that about ten years ago, then Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, MD, was making a ludicrously incorrect diagnosis of Terry Schiavo from video being shown on the Senate floor. (I would have used “hilariously” there, but the Schiavo case was no laughing matter.)

For the last 25 years one of the best ways to gain insight into what Republicans are up to is to look at what they are accusing Democrats of. So I will venture to guess that Donald Trump is concealing something about his medical condition. Since I am not an MD, I will refrain from speculating about what exactly that might be. I’ll just note that Trump is so vain, he probably thinks the old Carly Simon song is about him.

Yep. Both sides do it. They did it with John McCain in 2008 and his history of melanoma, for instance. This year, it’s primarily Trump supporters doing it. I do notice that, for the most part, Hillary Clinton supporters seem to have toned down the psychiatric armchair diagnoses since the criticism reached a certain level.

Off topic, but I mentioned above. 14 year old girl with type 2 spinal muscular atrophy wants to go into hospice. Various groups fighting her. Agony is OK, hospice isn’t.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/09/06/teens-plan-die-has-disability-groups-seeking-intervention/89936822/

Mom on meth kills her blind, autistic son.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/09/06/police-mom-admits-killing-her-blind-autistic-teen/89943230/

Y’know, I don’t specifically know if Clinton has Parkinson’s or some other disorder or not, but just saying I knew someone who fell once, and they didn’t have Parkinson’s really is just sticking one’s head in the sand.

The real issue at hand is how creepily extreme the bias in favor of Clinton is. It’s not just the usual liberal media bias. The shilling CNN and others are doing for Clinton is way scary over the top. Don’t any of you liberals wonder what’s/who’s ultimately behind that at all? Do you really think it’s a bunch of enlightened visionaries fighting for the common man? Seriously, has that been your experience?

No, John, we realize that people slip on slick steps.
My wife falls quite frequently, it goes with damage from a disc compressing her spinal cord.
I’ve had my own spills, one not all that long ago when the cat knocked my cane out of my hand just as I was setting it in mid-stride to place my weight on it.
Neither my wife or I have any sign of parkinsonism. Just fouled up backs.
Is Ms Clinton’s quite a bit older than we are, we’d expect a few missteps.
Of course, if Trump did the same, anyone capturing the event on video or still photo would be stuck in court and stuck with a gag order.

Now, here’s the fun thing. Our Constitution has no health clause at all. Period. Nobody made a thing about FDR’s health and he was quite frail in some ways. Hell, he died of a stroke so severe that people thought he was shot in the head!
We had over a half dozen other POTUS’s that were extremely ill, not a biggie.
A woman runs for POTUS, everyone wets their pants.
Well, on the right, anyway.
Get some depends if it’s that bad. I would.

Our judges would be very shocked to hear healthy people don’t fall on their head. They’ve been dealing with cases of that kind for many years. Maybe some damage awards need to be refunded.

Well, my wife has been falling a lot more of late. Worse, she has several healed vertebral fractures and two new ones. Plus various other bones showing healed small fractures.
While I was reviewing the diagnostic imagery, I commented to my wife, “Wow! I’m amazed that they didn’t think that I was beating you!”. Apparently, they did ask while I was out for lunch and coffee.
Good for them!
No, just advanced osteoarthritis.

Although, back when we only had a full sized bed, it could almost seem that way when rolling over.*

*That’s OK, the few times that she got my forearm crashing down on her were paid back with interest after her carpal tunnel surgery and she had a cast. I was sporting two black eyes, to some mutual embarrassment and laughter.
I’m still quite the active sleeper, flopping this way and that, but as we have a king sized bed, the only thing that happens is my knocking the fitted sheet off of my corner of the bed, to be replaced when I arise.
Occasionally, to find my head encased in said corner, when the elastic snaps it over me…

Seriously, they’re going on and on about three falls in what, eleven years? I’ve sprained my ankle and gone down more frequently than that (and have done since age 10), and that’s only a subset of the falling I do.

I’ve also seen plenty of perfectly healthy folks (teenagers, even!) pass out on stage just from locking their knees during choral concerts. It doesn’t take much.

Oddly, I’m one infamous for locking knees and never passing out. Likely, a side effect of hypermobility.

Meanwhile, both of our daughters have laxity in joints, clinically notable laxity.
I have a suspicion, however, I’m not a physician.
I’ve nearly always deferred to a physician, when I didn’t, said physician’s management or supervisor overruled him or her.
That said, such an event was rare, only statistically significant.

Or in short, I don’t challenge someone that’s an SME until I’m damned sure that they’re wrong. Then, all bets are off.
I’ve not lost that bet yet. But, I also recognize my educational and experiential level delta.

I was watching news with a live feed of HRC the other day when she couldn’t start her talk due to having a coughing fit. It was so painful, thinking about what the unfit-to-serve folks would make of it, I turned it off.

If you wanted a long-distance armchair diagnosis of that coughing, I wouldn’t go with Parkinson’s but GERD, (since that’s what gave ME similar coughing fits and laryngitis tied to trying to speak in public) and have Hilary checked for Barrett’s.

@sadmar, full empathy. I have GERD in spades. I forgot, for only two days, my proton pump inhibitor. I currently feel like I thankfully drank battery acid.
For those not in the know, we’re talking the lower esophagus being burned by rebound and propensity driven excesses of stomach acids, sloshing up the esophagus.
Having forgotten on day three, but remembering in the “morning”, I took my proton pump inhibitor, went to work and literally drank three gallons of water to dilute the excess until I could heal.
Many, many, many bathroom visits later, I returned home, ate a few acid neutralizer tablets.
At this point, I’m nearly feeling somewhat, erm, normal (well, for me).
That means, in this condition, which I have well documented, it’s a one in three chance that I’ll projectile vomit, with minimal warning.
Said vomiting usually takes between ten and thirty seconds to occur with proton pump inhibitors and is largely mucus driven.

So… It’s complicated.
My wife fares more poorly. She has reflux at night, coughs up a mouthful and erodes her face – literally.

Yep. I once fainted in the kitchen of the house I was renting with four other students when I was 21. Vasovagal, for no apparent reason other than perhaps burning the candle at both ends in the run up to exams.

If you wanted a long-distance armchair diagnosis of that coughing, I wouldn’t go with Parkinson’s but GERD, (since that’s what gave ME similar coughing fits and laryngitis tied to trying to speak in public) and have Hilary checked for Barrett’s.

GERD and undiagnosed asthma are two common causes of chronic coughs.

Tim Cook just coughed during the Apple Event! He must have Parksinsons. Sell your Apple Stock!

Yeah, and that Huma b****, when she wrote “She’s often confused.” They jumped all over that, too. And they never asked how in the hell Huma would know this, as if she has a lot of access to Hillary. What a joke.

Forget Hillary, a vote for her is a vote for George Soros. A man far more evil than Trump!!!

Hey, dimbulb, Parkinson’s isn’t contagious. Go troll Reddit,with your fellow jerkface, MRA, gun-fetishist joint smoking friends.

The longer this election goes on, the more I wish the baby-boomers would just go away. It’s funny, once upon a time they dreamed of making the world better, but all they did was make it massively worse. If the 1950s had been cut straight out of history, or if we’d had to spend it rebuilding like Europe did, we’d be a sight better off now.

@PGP, while we’re trailing edge baby boomers, you’ll greatly miss us when we’re gone. 🙂
That said, our mutual predecessors did massively foul up.
Assigning blame while the fire is ongoing isn’t how one addresses the fire. It’s how one lets everything burn down, while investigating.
Not the most optimal solution.

Still, just a suggestion. 🙂

Hogwash. If your mother was having coughing fits like Hillary you wouldn’t take her to the dr…..right? “Sorry to hear about your coughing fits mom…how’s your lawn?”

Politics

Sonny, let me explain a few things, in as gentlemanly a fashion as I can.
First, my mother had chronic bronchitis and coughed a lot. Especially in spring, during allergy season.
And in late fall, when mold went up and the house was closed up
She also didn’t have to yak on like a politician. At all, thankfully.

As for “how’s your lawn”, I’d love to read on how you expound on that mythical lawn.

If your a Trump supporter the video makes sense.

If your a Clinton supporter not so much.

But health looks like it could be an issue , there has been peculiar moments for Hillary if your honest and can get by your bias.

Erm, when you can speak in a literate sense, come back.
There’s your and you’re.
Mixing the two befuddles any point that you’re trying to make, beyond the top of your already empty head.

For others reading, this is a precautionary note. Defective usage of a condom can and will create such deficient creatures, for the best part of that individual stays inside of the rubber.

I’m not a doctor. And I wouldn’t attempt to diagnose her health. But it does make me really uneasy when I watch her head bob around, see her react to sudden stimulation and watch her cough without stopping for four plus minutes. And it isn’t like the coughing has been constrained to one episode. Neither have her pretty bad falls. A busted elbow, a bad concussion, etc. Hell, she even had an aide stabilize her during a recent rally. We can’t expect her to be in perfect health. She’s 68. We can expect her to disclose her health records though. Ditto for him as he is even older. It’s a serious job afterall.

You should have stopped at, “I’m not a doctor. And I wouldn’t attempt to diagnose her health.”

One notes, as I pointed out, that the head bobbing was cherry picked from many thousands of hours with no head bobbing. Ditto the coughing.

On second thought, you should have stopped at, “I’m not a doctor.”

No, John, we realize that people slip on slick steps.

Including US presidents. There was a famous incident in the 1970s when then-President Gerald Ford, alighting from Air Force One, slipped and fell to the bottom of the air stairs. That incident helped seal his reputation as a klutz. But nobody to my knowledge claimed that Ford had Parkinson’s, either then or in the three decades between that incident and his death.

For that matter, I had a slip and fall earlier this year that, to an onlooker, would have seemed completely out of the blue. Do I have Parkinson’s or some other neurological disorder that caused the fall? No, it turned out that the light coating of snow on the sidewalk concealed a patch of ice. No need to assume that anything was physically or neurologically wrong with me prior to the incident (I did sustain a hand injury in the fall).

So no, falling is not evidence of Parkinson’s. Even if Parkinson’s could cause someone to fall, that isn’t the way to bet.

[email protected]: Please adjust your snark meter.

@Eric Lund, currently and admittedly, recently, I’ve been forced to walk with a cane.
Well, it’s that or randomly be dumped flat on my face, when one leg randomly collapses.
So, having dad’s old cane around, I use it. It retains a tip that I purchased for him. Flip the little metal bit around, there’s a half centimeter steel tip to dig into ice.
Which was its purpose in life, grab into ice, not slip and drop dad to the ground.
That said, I still have plenty of wiggle room to fall. The cat knocked said cane out from under me when I got home for work once. *Just* as I was setting it down and shifting weight to rest upon it.
While, I didn’t have enough time to prepare a martial arts guided landing, I did just go solidly down onto both knees and one elbow.

Obviously, that’s parkinsonism, to idiots. For anyone with a mind, a history of disc disease suggests that bilateral collapse after injury might be potentially disc driven symptoms.
Well, for anyone, save an insurance company…

First, here’s a link worth looking at:
https://www.theguardian.com/science/brain-flapping/2016/aug/04/dont-diagnose-donald-trump-its-not-helpful
Now the most pointed example of a spouse taking over was Edith Galt Wilson after her husband’s stroke. She allowed very few people to see him but claimed to be his intermediary. It is widely supposed that she was actually running the country herself. That couldn’t happen today.
I find Trump’s pretended concern for Clinton’s health hypocritical, coming as it does from someone who looks like a jack o’lantern left out on the porch all winter.
Falls? When I hyperextend my neck I occlude one or both vertebrobasilar arteries, and if there’s nothing in front of me to grab onto, I lose all motor control and I quite literally fall on my face – dirt on my nose and glasses, a sharply pointed branch scraping my face just millimeters from my eye, and so forth.
Now, John Jacobs, I don’t know where you see a leftward bias in the media. I see false equivalency. Trump tells a huge lie about Mexicans = Clinton’s email. Trump insults a war hero = Clinton’s email. Trump goes racist on a judge = Clinton’s email. Trump & his entourage repeatedly retweet Nazis and white supremacists = Clinton’s email. Trump pays off state officials to steer them away form investigating Trump University = Clinton’s email. And on and on it goes. Meanwhile, no matter how despicable, deceitful, or corrupt Trump gets, no matter how he lies about his own recorded statements, the bulk of the media pass on the ludicrous defenses made by and for him as if it were holy writ instead of Pravda-like falsehood.
I hoped electoral politics could be kept out of Orac’s blog, but it’s here, leading me to say that Donald Trump is the worst choice for President since Richard Nixon or Strom Thurmond and for more reasons than there’s room to tell here.

I just got over 2 weeks of horrible coughing due, it turns out, to bronchitis. Never had that before (and I being a dumb male type person) I naturally ignored it as long as I could. Eventually after being unable to breath at times the coughing was so bad, I went to the doctor’s office. A z-pack and some codeine cough syrup and fixed it all up.

While codeine is nice, I’m a bigger fan of promethazine. It’s excellent at cough suppressing action, diarrhea, even antihistamine activity and more. It’s a Swiss Army Knife of drugs, one can even use it as an adjunct for anesthesia. Great drug in the right hands, in the wrong hands, it’s like any other powerful drug, potentially dangerous.
But, it was one of the elective drugs that I carried in my downrange treatment kit.

@PgP #46
“Hey, dimbulb, Parkinson’s isn’t contagious.”

How do you know?

“The (human) brain diseases caused by prions include Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, Huntington’s, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (Lou Gehrig’s disease), and other disorders known as frontotemporal dementias,” said Nobel Laureate Stanley Prusiner, who earned a Nobel Prize in Physiology in 1997 for discovering deadly prions.

http://alzheimerdisease.tv/parkinsons-transmissible-disease/

Let’s just say that, if our plane crashed in the Alps, I’d feel a little extra trepidatious about eating her.

Erm, Gil, there’s precisely zero evidence, in real world evidence, that parkinsonism is prion related.
Period.
A one-off, after a major tragedy? Seriously?
Dude, I’ve just lost a lot of respect for you.
Which is actually saying a lot.
Car talk was cool, you’re willing to learn, but you really need to re-address your boundaries for accepting input.
We’ve got a pretty good handle on prion disease, it’s transmissible via specific methods. Parkinsonism, just not happening. The latter is either prior brain damage that decompensates with age related loss or autoimmune, doing the same.
Seriously, we’re talking brains, meat! Not rocket science!*

*Remember the hyperbole wheelbarrow? This is a double wide, triple load model, with sarcasm by the supertanker.
Albeit, in this instance, rightfully delivered.
Or, perhaps, he’s right. Boxing gloves magically deliver a prion, injected, by magic, into the opponent.
Assuming, of course, that magic suddenly came to exist.

The cause of neuronal death in Parkinson’s disease is still unknown, but a new study proposes that neurons may be mistaken for foreign invaders and killed by the person’s own immune system …

The results raise the possibility that Parkinson’s is partly an autoimmune disease, Dr. Sulzer says, but more research is needed to confirm the idea.

“Right now, we’ve showed that certain neurons display antigens and that T cells can recognize these antigens and kill neurons,” Dr. Sulzer says, “but we still need to determine whether this is actually happening in people.

http://newsroom.cumc.columbia.edu/blog/2014/04/17/parkinsons-autoimmune-disease/

def. one-off: done or happening only once.

^^ What do you mean by that?

Wzrd1: while we’re trailing edge baby boomers, you’ll greatly miss us when we’re gone.
I will miss a number of members from the boomer generation, but not the generation itself. (the dimbulb is a prime example of his generation, for example.)
Wzrd1: Assigning blame while the fire is ongoing isn’t how one addresses the fire. It’s how one lets everything burn down, while investigating.

At this point, letting it all burn down seems like the only option. As I’ve said before, a lot of things need a rethink, including the idea of fifty states, and possibly closing all national parks to visitors.

Dimmy: Because we’ve done a metric fuck-ton of research on prions since they were discovered and guess where they aren’t? They’re not in Alzheimers’ patients, or ALS patients or Parkinson’s patients. Alzheimer’s patients have *proteins* unravelling in the brain, but proteins aren’t the same as prions.

Go get a new brain, yours is clearly not working. And people say pot is completely harmless.Maybe the Reagans were actually right about something for once.

#61

<blockquoteThe cause of neuronal death in Parkinson’s disease is still unknown, but a new study proposes that neurons may be mistaken for foreign invaders and killed by the person’s own immune system …

In other words, NOT a communicable disease. NOT a disease caused by prions.

It is, of course, OK to post about something Theodore Beale has said — it may even be an obligation if that thing has actually gained credibility somewhere. But it is usually OK to ignore him completely. Teddy Beale is in that category of stupid, evil people whose stupidity tends to make a lot of the evil ineffective. He only has a soapbox because his father, tax protester and arch-wingnut Robert Beale, is on the board of WND. As noted elsewhere, he is so crazy and vicious he even gets edited at that odious fishwrapper. He should be ignored.

@Wzrd1
“Erm, Gil, there’s precisely zero evidence, in real world evidence, that parkinsonism is prion related.”
Have you ever heard of synuclein?

ORAC – It is no more unreasonable for me to be concerned by her many instances of odd behaviors, falls, coughing, etc. than it is for someone to proclaim there is nothing wrong. Both candidates should submit to physical exams by a team of physicians and allow the results to be made public. The job is too important. Acting smug about it won’t change that fact. The job is too important for the public not to understand the health of two candidates who are way past the age for AARP membership.

Except that there is no evidence that Clinton has has “many” instances of odd behaviors, falls, and coughing. It’s clearly all cherry picked by her political opponents. Diagnosing Clinton from a distance is just as dumb as diagnosing Donald Trump with psychiatric disorders from a distance.

Consider this. If it were Donald Trump showing identical behaviors to Hillary Clinton, would you think he was sick and be demanding he release his medical records? I highly doubt it.

Let’s just say that, if our plane crashed in the Alps, I’d feel a little extra trepidatious about eating her.

Me too. We all know that as a mammal ages, protein crosslinking makes the muscles tougher.

Only wussies are afraid of prions.

Can someone explain what the medical difference is between past and way past?
I guess I missed that in my coursework on documentation, but can start notating it in my patient charting.

Yeah but what if Dr. Noel is right, then what? I certainly don’t have any “medical credit ability” except having been a nurse for 47 years and having a family member with Parkinson’s disease. I think I deserve the truth but then again hiding the truth seems to be her biggest illness.

Why did Mrs. Clinton have some of her staff research Parkinson’s Disease drugs which has been confirmed. Her symptoms are obvious. She can’t climb a set of stairs without exerting much effort and help. She has uncontrollable head movements and the deer in headlights look that she can’t control. Parkinson’s or some other neurological disorder, the woman is not well.
As for the comment that “we survived” President Reagan’s dementia. First, it is debatable whether Reagan was suffering from the disease while still in office. What is not debatable is that Reagan’s policies resulted in the largest peacetime economic boom in American history and nearly 35 million more jobs according to the Joint Economic Committee in 2000.

“…that the head bobbing was cherry picked from many thousands of hours with no head bobbing….”
No it wasn’t. Neither were the uncontrollable hand movements, falls and incessant spit-choking.

Yes they were. And there aren’t any uncontrollable hand movements, just a misinterpretation by a biased anesthesiologist. I have a board certified neurologist telling me this after having seen the video and telling me he saw nothing obviously abnormal and certainly no obvious movements characteristic of Parkinson’s.

I declare Trump unfit because his obvious “disability” of never being able to tell the truth…..

@Jim

Well, we do have that pesky HIPAA law that would prevent anything like you propose, barring the candidates themselves disclosing the information. That said, the results of any physical examination wouldn’t be anyone’s business. The most that anyone could legitimately argue is for a fit/unfit results to be disclosed, but no details.

Of course, “no details” would not satisfy people opposed to the candidate, as they would simply claim that the doctors had been paid off (which is already being done).

And, quite frankly, while people might want to know if the person they elect is physically or mentally fit to govern, there is no legal requirement for such a test to be made.

That incident helped seal his reputation as a klutz.

Chevy Chase didn’t hurt, either.

jre @65: Now that Vox Day has also totally failed in his attempt to “destroy” the Hugo awards (Science Fiction awards) it really is time for the internet to turn its collective back on his blathering.
What a loser.

Look, it’s obviously mild cognitive impairment subsequent to chronic Lyme disease. High-dose antibiotics administered by a Lyme-literate doctor would clear it up in a few months to a year.

Regarding the Parkinson’s/Prion debate – this is an actual hypothesis you can find in the literature, so plz don’t bash on someone for mentioning it. I will say that’s it’s very premature to present it as a fact, but that’s really a problem with Gilbert’s source rather than with Gilbert.

Parkinson’s has been linked to mutations in synuclein. The synuclein protein seems like it may form prions in the related disease multiple system atrophy (MSA), but no evidence for such prions has yet been found for Parkinsons (http://www.pnas.org/content/112/38/E5308).

Since I know there are a bunch of nerds here, does this “Hillary has Parkinson’s” remind anyone of the Tenth Doctor and his “Don’t you think she looks tired?” comment about the prime minister, which ended up with her being ousted from office?

(For non-Doctor Who nerds, eh, it would take forever to explain, but the episode is The Christmas Invasion.)

Ok so the Dr is not a Hillary supporter, but the author points out she’s been political blogging going 10 yrs back.

Also interesting- her “take down” of the Vox day points to 2006 discussion of deporting “12 million” illegal aliens. 10 years later, the “accepted” illegal population is 11 million. ??
PEW Research estimates the illegal population grows by 500k per year.

So who exactly is lying about Amnesty for illegals? Bear Sterns estimated 20 million back in 2008. 20 million? 30 million? Add the population of Texas? Add the population of Canada, or more accurately in terms of voting habits, Venezuela?

The high ground on matters of national importance whether candidates health or who constitutes the voting population always seems to shift, per needs of the moment.

Justatech: Ugh, don’t get me started on the Hugos. I’m ready to get up a petition to shut them down because of the incessent whining of the untalented puppies. If they want to win they need to stop whining and learn to write. Although it does help to keep my reading list trim, as I ax off writer after writer as the catastrophe continues. I’m beginning to be convinced that many science fiction writers want the fandom to be solely comprised of white 14-year-old boys.

Whether Orac is correct or not, his criticism of Dr Ted Noel being incapable of making a diagnosis of Parkinson’s because he’s a “First off, being a “board-certified anesthesiologist” has little or nothing to do with expertise in neurology or Parkinson’s disease. Yet, note how Vox emphasizes that he has 36 years of experience, presumably at anesthesia. I’m sure he’s a perfectly capable anesthesiologist, but he’s no more qualified to diagnose Parkinson’s disease than any other non-neurologist, probably less, given his high degree of specialization.”

Of course Dr Gorski is an oncologist dealing with cancer. His criticism of Dr Noel would also apply to him. He has no business deducing anything about HRC either. See the quote below.

“It’s hard to imagine two diseases more different than Parkinson’s and cancer. Parkinson’s disease, a progressive neurological disease that causes tremors, muscular rigidity, and loss of motor function, happens when neurons that release the neurotransmitter dopamine die in the tiny substantia nigra region of the brain.Mar 9, 2010

Parkinson’s Disease and Cancer: The Unexplored Connection
jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/102/6/371Journal of the National Cancer Institute”

Orac is an oncologist, yes—and he’s not diagnosing Clinton with anything. For the conclusion that Clinton doesn’t have Parkinson’s, he cited Steve Novella, who is a neurologist.

When someone waves irrelevant credentials around, I tend to conclude that this is because they have neither relevant credentials, nor an argument that would stand on its own without the dubiously claimed authority.

In referring to the anestheseologist, the author mistakenly referred to Ted Noel, the anestheologist as “Vox”, wno is Ted Beal.
An understandable mistake given that Vox quotes Noel

Actually, no. Vox emphasizes that Dr. Noel has 36 years of experience. I pointed that out because Vox normally castigates experts, but when there’s one that he likes he emphasizes what an “expert” he is. 🙂

This reminds me of the Obama birth certificate issue. It could have been solved immediately but he spent 2 million dollars fighting the release of his birth certificate in court. The fight only seemed to confirm suspicions.

Same here. She could release hospital records and the suspicions would be allayed immediately. She can do more.

The number of former Senators that run for POTUS and were required to show their birth certificate = 1.
For every other candidate in US history, an attestation of a state governor and surgeon general was more than sufficient.
Now, for yet another first, the GOP now wants HIPAA protected documents.

Said to another republican, so long ago, but it bears saying today, “Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?”

It could have been solved immediately but [Obama] spent 2 million dollars fighting the release of his birth certificate in court.

Horse Apples.
Horse. Freaking. Apples.
Point me to proof that Obama fought the release of his birth certificate. in fact, if I remember correctly, the State of Hawaii released it to shut the birthers up.

I recall some resistance to releasing the birth certificate, as he’d then be the only candidate in US history to have had to release a document that was already sworn to by a republican governor and state surgeon general.
So, it got to the point where some brain trusts were claiming that Hawaii wasn’t really a state (seriously!) and others, that two republican leaders in Hawaii were conspiring to elect a democrat that was an illegal alien or something.

It was embarrassing, internationally and when I thought things couldn’t make the world wonder as to our nation’s collective sanity, along bumbles Trump.

Hawaii released Obama’s long-form birth certificate a long time ago…but the birthers continued their crusade, regardless.

I wonder what will be next?
Proof the candidate is baptised? Or proof the candidate attends the church?
Or perhaps proof the candidate is legally married?
Our premier is single and why should I care?

This Science Blog article is so incredibly politically biased as to destroy any credibility it ever had based on scientific rigor. It’s authors are clearly Hillary supporters, making several statements that are patently false — such as claiming the suggestion that Hillary has Parkinson’s Disease is based on “basically nothing” — except for the dozen or so incidents befalling Hillary that are entirely consistent with Parkinson’s Disease. If you are going to call yourselves the “Science Blog” then you need to employ a little integrity and rigor when you diverge into the political arena.

Ah, Hillary related information needs “science”, whereas anything else for you requires nothing.
Consider the worse profanity yours to keep, my compliments, my version is worse.
Go away, son, you bother me.

Seriously, that one annoyed me less than an ankle biter.

So. You are annoyed by a demand for political rigor to be taken as seriously as seriously as scientific rigor is taken by real scientists. If you are a leftist, that’s typical or Hillary would be locked in a closet somewhere. If you are a realist, OTOH, you would agree the article open this thread is worthless garbage. And yes, I do require equal rigor when it comes to Trump. Applying equal rigor to both of these flawed candidates reveals Hillary to be the end of everything America stands for, beginning with liberty under the Rule of Law Obama has already trashed. And it reveals Trump to the only possibility, however weak it may seem to you, to turn our country around and restore it to its true promise. Not guaranteed, mind you, but the destruction under the Bitch of Benghazi is guaranteed and she has said so, promised so, and is using it as a campaign promise.

Five will get you ten that after all is said and done, Hillary has great expectorations of being featured in Ricola commercials.

Bleh, Gil. My “Expectorations” are greater, I’m a pack a day smoker.
Hell, when ozone is high, I projectile vomit!
And?
Am I incompetent?
I also fall a lot, last week, the cat knocked my cane out from under me and down I went.
Wanna play, I have a pocket full of quarters. Let’s play.
I have no love of Hillary, but I do love reality.

If you are going to call yourselves the “Science Blog” then you need to employ a little integrity and rigor when you diverge into the political arena.

The author has stipulated that diagnosing someone via videos, especially those with no training in the requisite areas is as ridiculous for Trump as it is for Clinton. The author writes for a collective called “Science Blogs”, he had nothing to do with that name. What are you whingeing about again? I’d be more concerned with your reading comprehension than some perceived liberal bias.

Wonderful forgery, save that the use of language lacked, badly.
Might as well been in Russian.

Things just keep getting hilariouser and hilariouser.

– re the small handed ( orange) one
a television reporter visited NY’s Mme Tussaud’s which displays a casting of the aforesaid one’s hands.
They measure 7 1/4 inches in length – smaller than most men’s, similar to most women’s ( according to the broadcast).
My hands are a tiny, tiny bit larger than the Donald’s.
I am 5’6″ tall and have NO penis.
– What is Aleppo, anyway?
– I noticed 2 political commenters coughing like mad the other day in unison- she must be wildly infectious!
– prn.fm’s noontime frolic has devolved into a political commentary contra Clinton
We should be happy, he’s not instructing followers in the finer points of BS-laden woo.

As a long time observer and commenter upon internet lunacy involving health and ( since 2008) politics –
I must say-
Crap has gone mainstream and come home to roost.

@Denice Walter, your final point is purely and finally valid.
Former points, I’ll not discuss my variable penile length, depending upon mood, as it’s not germane beyond excitement. 😉
Hand length, erm, I dunno.
But, point strength, dumb donald loses. Always. Sans a clue.

Strange you should say that. Every “dumb thing” Trump has said that the Marxist Mafia left outrages about has turned out to be true upon a little research. OTOH, everything the Marxist Mafia subaltern exhibiting the symptoms of Parkinson’s Disease has said has been known to be a lie from the moment she said it. It is so consistently so that you can generally figure if her face flap is flapping, she’s lying. She lies about her own actions; she lies about history, she lies about her opponent; she lies about her Clinton Foundation slush fund, and she lies about her lies.

Mr Cline speaks of “little research”, therein lies the problem, with little research, he arrives at defective ideas.
Case in point, the “Benghazi bitch”, despite a half dozen committees that were hostile to her finding precisely nothing against her performance of her duties when the tragedy in Benghazi occurred. Or for that matter, what the status of forces agreement permitted in Libya. Or general reality.
Just foaming at the mouth hyperbole.

At least when I use hyperbole, it’s clear that I’m using it in a humorous context, not a closely held, albeit erroneous belief.
For, a little research can be as bad as no research at all if one does not uncover the facts of a matter of interest.

Do you think for one New York Second V. I. Lenin’s depredations in the Ukraine in 1924, or Josef Stalin’s murderous holocaust in that country, would have been exposed by an investigation into his crimes by his own equivalent to our “Department of Justice”? (See http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/stalin.htm for more information.) If not, why on God’s green Earth would you expect the beneficiary and titular head of the biggest criminal regime on the planet to be challenged by our Department of Justice for giving aid and comfort to our enemies in Libya? Your comment reveals a total ignorance of just how complete the Marxist Mafia takeover of our federal government is. They don’t play nice, Wrzd1. Approximately 90 people with evidence against the Clintons have already been murdered, four or five in the last couple of months. Eric Holder got out hoping he would be next. Rahm Immanuel got out, hoping he wouldn’t be next. Jeff Comey refused to call for an indictment against Hillary hoping he wouldn’t be next, and knowing that Loretta Lynch wouldn’t have allowed it in any event. You have no idea how totally corrupt our rogue occupation government has become, Wzrd1.

Approximately 90 people with evidence against the Clintons have already been murdered, four or five in the last couple of months. Eric Holder got out hoping he would be next. Rahm Immanuel got out, hoping he wouldn’t be next. Jeff Comey refused to call for an indictment against Hillary hoping he wouldn’t be next, and knowing that Loretta Lynch wouldn’t have allowed it in any event.

All of those dead, powerful people, yet you know “the truth” and are somehow magically alive and protected. Is it the space aliens protecting you or the immortal militia or something?

I’m a private citizen presenting facts and political history anyone can verify for themselves. If I became a witness to specific acts of treason admissible in a court of law, I would definitely become a target.

Most likely she has discoordinated swallowing, resulting in pharyngeal cough fits (for layman – saliva got into the wrong pipe). This swallowing disorder is a part of ongoing (and progressing) pseudobulbar syndrome. Some of her other symptoms, as shown on videos, belong to Pseudobulbar Affect (PBA).
My guess is that her medics are not top notch ones, she could be managed better, but I agree this condition is difficult to fix.
So far there are no signs of PD or use of levodopa type medication.

Why, thank you, pseudo-doc!
I’ll forward your pseudodiagnosis to my real physician, who will happily laugh at your non-diagnosis with me.
I’m also infamous for choking on my own spittle, something about cervical discs and all.

What is someone playing for pay again, a common whore, is it?
Save that I’d trust a street prostitute more than you, at least she’d be honest about who and what she does for a living. You’re not.
Now, as my Brit friends would say, “Bugger off!”.

For the record, I loathe Hillary. I loathe paid whores far more. Tovarich.

@ Lawrence:

I have a birth certificate copy ( my mother lost the original) that looks like she printed it up herself on nearly transparent green tissue paper.

It’s funny to see these sites and read all the comments from the un-educated democrats! It’s all just childish name calling and unproven garbage. Anyone with a brain can see Clinton has something going on. Even if she is in perfect health she is a dishonest person with little integrity. Certainly not something worthy of the highest office in the land.

@ Science Mom:

One of my gentlemen showed me a picture of twitter ( I forget to whom it belonged) which showed a close up of the Donald’s hair which is held in place with hair/ bobby pins.

There’s a new epithet just a-waiting

Somehow I doubt that “Educated Democrat” was ever a Democrat…

NEITHER WAS BERNIE!!1!1!!!

L-rd only knows what he has.

ORAC – Yes, I would demand Trump release medical records. I’ve already stated I think both the candidates need to submit to physical exams. She is 68. He’s even older. And, to be very clear, we do have multiple examples of her having odd issues. Getting old sucks. And this job is too important not to have these candidates be examined. What is wrong with calling for them to prove they are of sound mind and body? If there is nothing wrong, as they both claim, then they should have no issue submitting to an exam by impartial physicians.

Trump’s doctor has already released his findings; if Trump was any healthier he would be illegal.

@Jim

What is wrong with calling for them to prove they are of sound mind and body?

Define “sound mind and body”. Remember, use only objective measures, along with clear descriptions of why someone who does not meet those measures cannot fulfill the function of the office. And what about someone who is borderline? Who determines whether or not they meet the measures?

Remember, the average person is completely unqualified to determine, objectively, what would or would not make a person unfit for the job.

Next, how do you determine whether the physician is impartial? Does that one physician have the requisite knowledge of the candidate’s medical history and current condition? Do they examine the candidate just once? Multiple times? How many?

Then, suppose the results are released. How are people to know that the results have not been doctored (no pun intended) in favor of one candidate over the other? Will it prevent armchair diagnoses from running rampant as we see now with both Trump and Clinton? Will each side accept the results of the other side? Will it make an objective difference in the outcome of the election?

Finally, what about HIPAA?

(see also my comment at #77)

“Define “sound mind and body”. Remember, use only objective measures, along with clear descriptions of why someone who does not meet those measures cannot fulfill the function of the office. And what about someone who is borderline? Who determines whether or not they meet the measures?”

We do. And we do so according to our own definition of “sound mind and body” without vetting it through you.

“Remember, the average person is completely unqualified to determine, objectively, what would or would not make a person unfit for the job.”

So you say. I say a practicing member of the Marxist Mafia is by definition unfit for the job because he or she does not regard the U.S. Constitution, as written, binding upon his or her decisions and actions. (Witness the current Chicago bathhouse boy illegally infesting our White House.)

“Next, how do you determine whether the physician is impartial? Does that one physician have the requisite knowledge of the candidate’s medical history and current condition? Do they examine the candidate just once? Multiple times? How many?”

Trump’s physician has been examining Trump annually for 30 years, and has proclaimed him to be in incredibly good health. You can’t be sure of getting anyone impartial, whether physician or president. All you can be sure of is getting someone who is clever.

“Then, suppose the results are released. How are people to know that the results have not been doctored (no pun intended) in favor of one candidate over the other? Will it prevent armchair diagnoses from running rampant as we see now with both Trump and Clinton? Will each side accept the results of the other side? Will it make an objective difference in the outcome of the election?”

Doesn’t matter. People will make their own decisions, even if those decisions are based upon the idiocy of voting for a confirmed Marxist or refusing to vote for the one person who can prevent the destruction of our nation. Rarely, if ever, are their votes founded upon the basic common sense God gave a goose.

“Finally, what about HIPAA?”

Does snot prevent any individual from releasing his own records.

@DB, I dunno, Mr Cline may actually be missing the fact that Joe McCarthy isn’t around to be a candidate.
That entire “Commies” bit is highly telling and I’ve actually met more than a few who defectively, but recognizably paraphrased McCarthy.
Such people behave as though their denunciation should carry some sort of weight as well.

And you expect your denunciation of those who oppose Cultural Marxism taking over our nation to carry any weight?

Tell you what: How about you read the transcript of one witness called before McCarthy’s House UnAmerican Activities Committee (HUAC): http://www.frdmftr.net/rand.html

Then you can decide if McCarthy was justified or not. (That’s the problem with liberty; your enemies use your recognition of liberty as a tool of your destruction. You tell me: How do you preserve your liberties without taking them away from your enemies? Tough question, isn’t it?”

Hell, when ozone is high, I projectile vomit!

Would you believe, Wzrd1 #99, that I participated in the 1995 Southern Oxidant Study (SOS)? I advocated taking people into caves many square miles from traffic to show how one is re-sensitized to ozone as it has very limited persistance — A few hours in the cave and coming back out would take your breath away — Soil bacteria and plants on a summer day were the major drivers of NoX thus ozone production in sunlight. It well overshadows traffic and even agriculture.

A site recording ozone over a certain level would constitute that city falling under ‘non-attainment’ status; Forbidding industrial growth and killing the economy in the area. Never mind that most of the gasses responsible for the ozone derived many miles away from the site.

The solution was to destroy vegetation upwind of the sensors — Many acres were destroyed south of Nashville and Atlanta while trees where planted downtown (lowers local temperature); all to mitigate that arbitrary O3 measuement. Everything was destroyed to satisfy EPA buerocratic stipends.

@Gil, don’t get me started on ozone, I projectile vomit easil yat certain levels. Go back into my treated office, not at all. Must be the space aliens or ground or some other batcrap.
Rather than good air treatment.
My car, with the A/C on did the same.

Seriously, ionize oxygen a little, get ozone. Lightning does it. Ultraviolet does it. Humans make it a plenty, hell wires themselves do it at high voltage levels. My care makes it.
See my brain leaked out of my ears, you’ve added to it and you ain’t my kid.

No need for a cave. Anyone bluewater sailing for the nearest foreign port can attest not only to the pollution, but to the loss of immunity from the common cold.

Oh, btw: The existence of the EPA, just like the ATF, the FBI, and numerous other federal agencies, is prohibited by the Constitution of the United States. Can I interest you in mounting an effort to demand that it be enforced as written?

@DB, I’m pretty sure that those were my brain surgeons!
Maye that explains some modest issues… 😉

Oh wait, that brain leaked out of my ears when our girls were teens.
Nevermind.

Noel reminds me of the conspiracy nuts who still cling to the notion that George Bush knocked down the twin towers and with willful intent killed 3,000 innocent citizens so he could go to war in Iraq. Get a grip people, you have two choices for President….pick one and shut up, please.

@prose #118, while I’m far from thrilled about my choices, I have Trump, (not happening) or Clinton.
So, it comes down to batshit crazy vs a corporate democrat.
Not shutting up, just pissed off that, while I was deployed, you all let our nation devolve into this cloistersmurf!
Believe me, my inner Patton mouth wants to say a *lot* worse!
I was away, you remained home, things turned into this while I was away defending your worthless asses you sat at home and let this get this bad.
My first alarm was, “second amendment remedies”, which badly frightened men going out on war patrol, fearing for their families and homes. I’ll never forgive that one.
For the tea party or the rest of you for letting that happen.
Sit at home, let a nation turn into fascism, screw the lot of you!
I should’ve stayed home and let the “commies” take over!

Now, we have one part of the nation armed to the literal teeth, other parts batshit crazy, other parts, confused.
So, thanks for nothing for what we’ve returned to, you’ve done a lousy job taking care of the place while I lost very close friends protecting this now nearly worthless place!

If you’ve failed to notice my contempt, ask me again.

I sense a measure of contempt, there, Wxrd1, but I have to wonder to whom it is directed. I was with you until you claimed you would have allowed the Commies to take over instead of the fascists. Haven’t you figured out yet that the Commies are the ones pushing the fascism? The line between the Marxist Mafia on the far left and the micromanaging fascists on the right is not linear; it is a circle: Regardless of the hair-splitting definitions of the political ideologies by university professors with “Piled-higher-and-Deeper” after their names, which they promulgated for the specific purpose of keeping us spinning our wheels in the definitive muck and accomplishing nothing, the fact is at the street level there is no discernible difference between Marxism (communism) and Fascism: Both are tyranny imposed by a system based on the Rule of Man. Our nation was founded to place individual liberty under the Rule of Law superior to the arbitrary whims of kings and princes and neighborhood Marxist/Fascist warlords. You want a free country, stop spinning your wheels and start demanding government obey the U.S. Constitution every time, no exceptions, no excuses. It is the only chance we have left before the Second Bolshevik Revolution is executed later this year.

Bush did not cause the events of 9/11. But his international handlers did, and they didn’t tell him about it. They just advised him on how to deal with it.

Humans make it a plenty, hell wires themselves do it at high voltage levels.

You’d hate my Tesla coil which, in an enclosed space, can turn your black shirt grey within the timespan of just a few minutes.

Bush was going to invade Iraq regardless – 9/11 just made it easier.

I was in a Pentagon CENTCOM planning room in April, 2001 which contained large-scale computer maps denoting the intended invasion routes (at the time, it included an advance through Turkey – since at that time, they still expected that Turkey would allow transit through their territory).

Which proves nothing, Lawrence. It is military planning’s job to wargame every possible future scenario. Wargaming doesn’t prove they are planning to do it; all it proves is they are preparing for all potential future scenarios if any turn out to be appropriate.

PGP @84: Ah, but that was the great thing this year: The Rabid puppies (lead by VD) were totally trounced and the rules changed to prevent it from happening again. That’s probably why VD has turned back to politics; because he can’t win at sci/fi.

And I wouldn’t ax everyone who ended up on the slates this year: a lot of it was trying to appear to win or tarring with a broad brush. And it introduced the world to Chuck Tingle, who writes hilariously-titled erotica.

Now well physically or mentally. Anyone espousing her Marxist crap is either retarded or is a power-hungry narcissist, and that includes her fawning fans.

Lawrence — I’m not disputing what you saw — but remember, the DOD has contingency plans for the invasion of everywhere. I can remember working on invasion plans for Iraq (among other places) back in 1985.

“Somehow I doubt that “Educated Democrat” was ever a Democrat…”
Somehow I doubt that “Educated Democrat” was ever educated…
He is so behind on the news that he hasn’t considered the possibility that the Never-Trumps here might just be wide-awake Republicans.

The “Never-Trumps” here might be “wide awake Republicans, but if they are “Never-Trumpsters” they are incredibly dumb and pursuing an objective that cannot be won — unless their objective is to elect the head of the global criminal syndicate known as the Marxist Mafia (funded by the Clinton Foundation).

shay simmons: Yes, the Pentagon has all kinds of contingency plans, like every good general staff does (An Israeli intelligence officer once told me that Israel had plans for everything including Arctic warfare. I still don’t know if he was kidding.).
But in the case of Bush, we have the testimony of Paul O’Neill, the Shrub’s Treasury Secretary, that the invasion was being planned from the first week of the Bush administration, if not earlier.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/10/oneill.bush/

I have a close family member who has been suffering from Parkinson’s for years. Nothing in what I’ve seen of Hillary Clinton suggests she’s suffering from it, and quite frankly the suggestion serves to trivialize the condition as an insult you can hurl for political gain.

Believe me, if Hillary Clinton had Parkinson’s there’s no way she’d be able to hide it for very long considering how much time she spends in public.

You realize that Trump is the best athlete in world? He can dance with both feet firmly in his mouth.

Ya gotta admit that he is more agile than the falling down tripping fainting forgetful opposition, dontcha?

Remember that while FDR was sick and enfeebled when he won a fourth term, for the twelve years before he had an extremely high-pressure job and he did it admirably.
Winston Churchill was Britain’s wartime prime minister and minister of war while suffering prostrating bouts of depression and repeated episodes of pneumonia, much more serious then, in the early days of antibiotics.
William H. Taft for most of his adult life weighed between about 280 and 350 lbs. He served as the first American civilian governor of the Philippines, Secretary of War, President, and Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, all the while morbidly obese.
Defining what state of health a candidate should be in may not be much better than picking one based on arm-wrestling ability.
As an aside, I hate that whole tiny hands thing. It’s exactly this kind of pseudo-macho posturing that we need to get away from. Marco Rubio should get his hands slapped for bringing that in to the campaign.

Rich Bly:
…and it’s truly amazing that they aren’t dislodged when his head is up his ass.

Guess we’ll all know soon enough. Julian Assange likley has her medical records, and I’m sure some health concern will be front and center. After all, Assnge’s sources hacked the NSA and a number of other government servers, so gainig access to a physician’s client files shoud prove childs play.

I am not a believer in conspiracies – in this case, it was obvious from day one that Bush was going to finish what his father started….9/11 was merely a convenient excuse – and if it wasn’t 9/11, it was going to be the WMD excuse.

When I was in the briefing room, it was also obvious that this was no mere contingency, it was active planning for an upcoming operation…..

Really? I’m not sure what you think you are trying to say with your suggestion of a ‘better syled” (sic) email name, but am I to understand you disapprove of the fundamental principles that established the first nation on the planet to elevate private individual rights superior to the arbitrary whims of kings, princes, kommissars, and neighborhood warlords? Please explain to the assembled multitudes here what you would like your roll to be in your fantasy dominion.

Mr. Cline, considering the URL in the comment and the oddly erroneous comprehension of our system of government, all rooted upon a lack of comprehension of why we have a Constitution…
If you agree with the concepts on that website, you’ve wandered down the merry path off of a cliff.
The states were indeed sovereign, bound into a temporary confederacy that was deemed too weak to stand, so a Constitutional convention was held and a Constitution drafted and ratified by the states, which created this nation by erasing parts of sovereignty of each state. Erase parts, they’re no longer sovereign, but bound to the Constitution, within boundaries established by that Constitution.

You complained of several federal agencies being unconstitutional, whereas they were created under the interstate commerce authority of Congress, granted to Congress by the Constitution.
Pollution can be considered part of commerce and if any state were to pollute my state with impunity, that would then, without relief, set the stage for a civil war.
Indeed, the Constitution even mentions the public welfare, not once, but twice, once in the preamble, once in an article.
The Constitution may be amended, the process laid out in that Constitution, whereas that website denies that which is as old as our Constitution.

After quite a bit of effort tracking down what URL you are talking about, it appears you are referring to “Freedom Fighter Net at http://www.frdmftr.net, referenced by Narad. I was confused by your comment until I realized you aren’t aware: That’s my website. I wrote it, based upon over 40 years of research.
Your error is one of perspective based upon over a hundred years of advancing the theory that the U.S. government is sovereign over the States in all matters whatever when it is not, never was, and the Constitution says so.

The States were, indeed, sovereign, but they were not “bound” by the Articles of Confederation, and they proved it by every State doing whatever it damned well wanted to do, causing Washington to observe, on the eve of the Convention, “We are fast verging to anarchy and confusion.”

You fail to understand two principles of compacts in general, and the Constitutional compact in particular: Sovereign States do not “erase” any of their sovereignty by agreeing to allow their creation, their proxy, to conduct certain specific sovereign actions in their name and under their authority. Indeed, it is a fundamental principle of law that should their proxy fail to fulfill its mandate, or exercise power not authorized, it is within the sovereign power of the State to exercise its sovereign power itself. That’s the first principle.

The second principle is that the creation of its proxy out of the sole sovereign power of the nation-States in compact is not under any circumstances plenipotentiary: I quote:

“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” Amendment X.

You will note that not only does this Amendment establish that the federal government is to do what it is authorized to do and is NOT to do what it is NOT specifically authorized to do, it also confirms that the States created the federal government and own it. The federal government has absolutely zero authority not delegated to it by the States.

In short, the States created the federal government and the States can take it out.

The authority for the creation of federal agencies referenced does not come from the Interstate commerce authority granted to Congress by (Article I Section 8 Clause 3) of the U.S. Constitution, which grants authority over COMMERCE between the States. It comes from a Roosevelt-packed rogue Supreme Court illegally ruling that the federal government has authority over private individuals growing wheat on their own land for their own use. See Wickard v. Filburn, (1945). The federal government has no authority whatever over private individuals not delegated to it in Article I Section 8.

I will add that even the federal government authority over commerce between the States does not authorize interference with the exercise of private rights of individuals — i.e., the federal government cannot use its interstate commerce authority to interfere with the private right to keep and bear arms, for example, or interfere with travel between the States, or oppress the right to free speech between the States, etc., etc. Private individual rights peacefully exercised are beyond the reach of government every time, no exceptions, no excuses.

Lawrence — just wanted to say you are absolutely correct.

This after reading Cline’s posts because I would hate to be suspected of being on his side on anything

Oh, good! Have I found myself in a den of liberal vipers ready to attack the messenger of liberty under the Rule of Law? Or are you willing to discuss the fundamental principles as a decent human being rather than a minion of flame war? In short form, do you have two facts to rub together to support your smarmy comments about my thesis, or are you merely into shallow ad hominem attacks?

@Narad 148
Wow, looking at that makes me really glad my uncle doesn’t know how to make a website. And that I have long since refused to discuss politics with him.

Smug liberal airheads always refuse to discuss politics with me. They have no facts upon which to base their side of the discussion, or when they do they derive meanings opposite to what the facts suggest. But I’m willing to discuss politics with y’all if you can do so in a adult manner and not try to turn it into a juvenile food fight.

Hey, Orac, this isn’t about you and any correlation between your anecdotal health issues and those of Hillary Clinton. Here’s a suggestion: How about Clinton and Trump undergo extensive physical examinations by an INDEPENDENT physician, since both of them are 70 years old, which justifies the public’s knowing what kind of shape they’re really in.

I would agree with that suggestion, but with the caveat that I seriously doubt an “impartial” physician (I assume that’s what you mean by “independent” could be found. Nor do I think the results would make the slightest difference to any obsessives on either side.

Man, this is pitiful. Perhaps Cline would be better syled as “vwlfghtr.”

C’mon the dude has his own quote.

Narad @148.
What a whackaloon – but then the “Clinton is a Marxist” should have been a giveaway.

Hey, MA: Do you have anything of substance to contribute to the date beyond Marxist* juvenile name-calling?
(*A technique developed and taught at the University of Moscow in the 1930’s by a — wait for it — Marxist — by the name of Lavrenty Beria, First Deputy Premier of Soviet Russia under Josef Stalin and documented as the most ruthless murder that criminal regime had ever seen.) Do you want to perpetuate his evil legacy, or would you prefer to debate issues like a decent human being?

If there is nothing to see here, then please explain why she is traveling with a board certified neurologist, Dr. Oladotun Okunola. M.D., of Neuroscience Center of Northern New Jersey, who apparently has the power to go on stage with her and shoo off secret service personnel. Is that typical behavior for someone like Wzrd’s wife who slips a lot? Do campaigns bring top end neurologists along as campaign staff customarily? Was Dr. Okunola carrying a diazepam auto injector pen while walking along side her? I wait to be educated on by the know-it-alls. I have a good idea they will deny any knowledge, or say they don’t know, or that it makes sense a Neurologist would travel with the campaign I guess. It is funny how the know-it-alls know everything until they are asked to provide insight on inconvenient facts and they find themselves shrugging their shoulders.

Well said. And the shrug their shoulders because insight requires facts, and they don’t have any. Pesky things, these facts; they keep getting in the way of their agenda.

Oddly, a visible only to you diazepam autoinjector.
Oh, I forgot, magic!
The diazepam autoinjector is a standardized beast, the military refer to it as a CANA injector, it’s not palmable at all. But, let’s keep on inventing shit.

Just saw in the Facebook “trending” feed that the AAPS says that 71% of it’s doctors think Clinton is very sick, or something.

I thought of Orac. Yeah, the AAPS…

I’m willing to discuss politics with y’all if you can do so in a adult manner and not try to turn it into a juvenile food fight.

Why on earth would anyone want to “discuss politics” with you, of all people? For that matter, political subjects are rarely even on topic here, and this entry isn’t one of those cases – it’s about brain-dead armchair diagnoses.

Mr. Cline, if you want to discuss anything in an adult manner, I highly recommend you not use phrases like “Smug liberal airheads” and “Marxist Mafia subaltern”.

Good riposte. Howsomever, I have been dealing with smug liberal airheads and Marxist Mafia subalterns since returning from the culturally-communist nation of Australia in 1974; and their identity factors haven’t changed one iota in that period of time. The people on this board, and Zerobama and Killary and Biden and Warren and their ilk have nothing of substance to offer the American people beyond creative hucksterism, so the identity factors still apply. “Political correctness” is nothing but the cultural Marxism insurgency we’ve endured since COMINTERN in 1925, and I see no reason to not call a spade a spade just because you aren’t historically educated enough to know what I am talking about.

If there is nothing to see here, then please explain why she is traveling with a board certified neurologist, Dr. Oladotun Okunola. M.D., of Neuroscience Center of Northern New Jersey

Time to tighten your colander.

in this case, it was obvious from day one that Bush was going to finish what his father started

They did make it pretty personal, Lawrence #146.

A tile mosaic depicting U.S. President George H.W. Bush with a look of astonishment on his face was installed on the floor of the lobby after the Persian Gulf War. This was intended to force any visitors to walk over his face to enter the hotel (a serious insult in Arab culture). On 17 January 1993, the hotel was damaged in a US missile strike and the attack resulted in civilian casualties. The artist, Layla Al-Attar, who did the mosaic died along with her husband and housekeeper when another stray US missile hit her house. After the invasion in 2003, the mosaic was smashed by U.S. soldiers, who left a portrait of Saddam Hussein behind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Tulip_Al_Rasheed_Hotel#History

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/07/10/world/baghdad-journal-a-new-graphic-message-from-saddam-hussein.html

If Mr. Cline insists on spouting insults like a small child, perhaps we should make him stand in the corner for a while.

Citing facts and relevant history is always insulting to a Marxist whore. It destroys their agenda, and they can’t tolerate that.

I like standing in the corner. My back is covered, preventing cowardly attacks from the rear, for which commies are famous.

He is a rather uninteresting troll. Such boring, predictable political trolls are why I seldom blog about politics. Even this post wasn’t so much about politics but rather conspiracy theories. However, because it’s about the election, the political trolls are out in force. I wonder where this link was posted to draw the Trumpies in…

Your definition of “Political Trolls” doesn’t meet the test of Occam’s Razor. Political trolls are people — usually the “useful idiots” as V.I. Lenin described his followers — who go around not contributing to discussions or debates, but doing everything they can to disrupt them. You can’t be referring to me, for I am inviting serious debate, in which so far the posters on this forum seem incapable of engaging.

I have been dealing with smug liberal airheads and Marxist Mafia subalterns since returning from the culturally-communist nation of Australia in 1974; and their identity factors haven’t changed one iota in that period of time.

Pish-tosh. Some of us are now Marxist Mafia field-grades.

Don’t give yourself airs. So far I haven’t seen any Marxist mafia field grades on this pitiful list; I have only seen their useful idiots who are incapable of perceiving contrary facts to their thesis, much less presenting them. The field grades usually come in later when their useful idiots go whining to their handlers complaining “He’s kicking our ass!”

I don’t think that Vox Day’s goal was to help HRC sort out her health problems via a public admission of Parkinson’s disease. The point is to get her, or at least her propagandists, to deny it. From where I sit, it looks like it’s working. Dunning-Kruger effect indeed.

Dunning-Kruger effect? Why not just call it what it is? Rampant vindictive narcissism.

“Was Dr. Okunola carrying a diazepam auto injector pen while walking along side her?”

I can think of another candidate who would benefit from such a device when the crazy strikes.

Is there even such a thing as a “diazepam auto injector pen?” Now I’m concerned a pharma company has a monopoly on it and is charging $600 per device.

*Can we be sure, completely sure, that Mike Adams is not lurking in Hillary Clinton’s entourage, ready to inject her with a kratom auto-injector pen when her mu opioid receptors need stimulation?

@DB, curious as to the price and existence of the diazepam autoinjector.
It was originally invented for the US Armed Forces as an anticonvulsant to update the older MK I autoinjector kit for nerve agent poisoning.
Cost, $25.00/month.
The DoD repeatedly tried to get the FDA to remove the RX only status, without effect.
https://www.patientslikeme.com/treatments/show/13222-diazepam-autoinjector-side-effects-and-efficacy?brand=t#overview
For a photo of the military unit, as originally issued as the “CANA unit”.
http://www.meridianmeds.com/products/diazepam

Discussing politics with D. Cline would be like swapping recipes with Jeffrey Dahmer.

Do you have anything to contribute to the debate, or would you rather index your recipes?

TL;DR
But I’m 99% sure she has Parkinson’s disease since she requested medication for that. She either has it or is crazy – you have to be crazy to request medication for an illness you don’t have. Either way she’s unfit to lead on oh so many levels.

You’re cute, but you’re a liar. Besides, I’m not a leftist; I don’t conjure up images or motives that aren’t there.

Mr. Cline, do you have any evidence that anyone is, in fact, a Marxist? Otherwise, you may as well be saying “reptile-man” instead of “Marxist”.

Certainly. And when you read the Communist Manifesto and the resolutions of the COMINTERN, and learn the methods the communist insurgency has been using to infiltrate and subvert the citizens and institutions of the United States of America since 1925 — and how those methods and efforts have redoubled in every election cycle since Reagan, you will too. There are other researches that are instructive also — what kind of president, for example, do you think Nixon was? Conservative, Liberal, Communist, Fascist, what? Did you know that for all his seemingly fascist bluster, he was turning over State secrets and pushing programs in the U.S. benefitting the Soviet Union? You folks hold the wildly liberal fantasies about the real world that you hold because you have been lied to since birth. You ought to dig a little deeper and find out who is actually running this country behind the scenes. You might consider, as a starting point, the fact that Woodrow Wilson was a devout communist, FDR was a communist sympathizer, the federal government you mostly think should be micromanaging every aspect of our lives is actually, BY SUPREME LAW, the wholly-owned subsidiary of the sovereign States that created it; that Secretaries of State Philander Knox and William Jennings Bryan committed perjury and MUTINY against the sovereign States when they falsely declared the 16th and 17th Amendments ratified, and by doing so the federal government devolved into the rogue occupation government we endure (and you ignorantly rejoice in) today. These are not someone’s hare-brained pipe dreams, ladies and gentlemen, these are facts and I can prove them by citations of supreme law and federal records anyone can look up. Discussion, anyone?

“Do you have anything to contribute to the debate, or would you rather index your recipes?”
Disparaging you *is* a contribution to the discussion.
I wouldn”t call it a debate. It’s mostly you rattling on about imaginary Marxists and deep, overarching plots and people here trying to introduce you to such unimportant things such as actual facts.

Really? Actual facts? What actual fact has been introduced to this discussion by you or anyone else on this forum? Not one, I suggest. Ad hominem and juvenile attacks as befits the typical Marxist method, yes, but not facts. And yes, I will agree this is not yet a debate because none of you have presented any facts to debate and I’m not sure you know how if you even have any, which I doubt. Now I just presented some facts in my last post, if you want to debate them, do so. No juvenile name-calling, please — and if you make an honest attempt to discuss or debate, I will withhold calling you an airheaded liberal doofus or Lenin’s “Useful idiot” because airheaded liberal doofusi and useful idiots are incapable of debating. They are terrified of honest discussion and debate because they might find themselves wrong.

I can’t believe this is a science blog, This Dr is offering up his conclusion that HRC has Parksion then goes on to offer up ample proof of his claim. Nobody here does what Science does and refute this claim, of coughing fits, head bobbing, falls, bug eyes, needing assistance and a stool to climb into limos, nothing about he paramedic at hand with auto injector military grade,
No you all make stupid jokes and puns and at best you say Oh he is anesthesiologist. Need I remind you in-denial twats that Dr Drew Pinsky lost his HLN show just for question HRC’s health. There is so much evidence that this lady is very sick that if it was snake it would bite you on the nose. Nobody on this thread has proven this Dr wrong, all you have done is giving weak excuses for falls, coughing fits, seizures, head bobbing, facial contortions and tics, Nodding up to 400 times.
It is amazing how people will lie to themselves to avoid facing the truth, HRC is a very sick woman.

^ Oh:

Need I remind you in-denial twats that Dr Drew Pinsky lost his HLN show just for question HRC’s health.

You might want to be cognizant, going forward, that it’s not possible to “remind” anybody of someone they’ve never heard of in the first place.

Not only is HRC using a Military Grade injector pen, she’s covering up her drooling, head-wagging and butt-shaking with food grade hydrogen peroxide.

I have presented the facts, now you must refute them.

Ad hominem and juvenile attacks as befits the typical Marxist method, yes, but not facts.

Are you sure* that you’re not confusing Marxism and Stalinism? Hell, perhaps rather than using the former as some sort of blobular-globular word-thing, you could set out what you think it means.

I’d unblock Sadmar for that.

* Heh.

Not at all; both are authoritarian fascism at the street level; hair-splitting differences are emphasized by elitist wonks for the purpose of engaging in useless debates that distract everyone from doing anything about the tyranny. Our founders were smarter than that, and created a form of government that prohibits both, and all other forms of tyranny.

Thank you for showing that you cannot tell the difference between Marxism and Stalinism. You’ve illustrated your ignorance quite well – repeatedly.

Orac @173: he’s certainly got the jargon down pat. Do these guys have a stylebook that they all use?

No juvenile name-calling, please — and if you make an honest attempt to discuss or debate, I will withhold calling you an airheaded liberal doofus or Lenin’s “Useful idiot” because airheaded liberal doofusi….

Cool plural, bro.

If Mr. Cline could take a break from the insults, I would like to ask him if he knows what the actual language of the seventeenth amendment contains. ‘Cause directly electing senators doesn’t seem all that controversial to me. I think he may have confused it with the fourteenth or eighteenth amendments, since he seems like the type who has an extra pair of sheets that he wears on Sunday. And before he dismisses me as a Marxist, I’m actually a monarchist, so there.

Same difference; like Marxists, monarchists believe in the Rule of Man, prohibited in our nation. Our form of government is based on the Rule of Law being superior to the arbitrary whim of monarchs, their subalterns, and their street thugs. Yes, I know exactly what the 17th amendment says and what it does. Are you aware that it is specifically prohibited by Article V unless every State consents to being deprived of its suffrage in the Senate, and more than ten States did not consent? And no, I don’t have an extra pair of sheets I wear on Sundays (whatever that means), so there.

C’mon the dude has his own quote.

Do you mean the hilarious use of himself as the source of an epigraph?

Is there a mathematician in the house?
,
I’ve been trying to figure out the Venn diagram which illustrates the overlap between two sets: reality and Mr Cline’s ability to discern it.
.
How DOES one represent the conjunction of an infinite set and a null set?

One stops trying to pretend he has a “Piled-Higher-and-Deeper” after his name and does some useful work in defense of our liberties.

How DOES one represent the conjunction of an infinite set and a null set?

Easy enough, divide by zero.

Donald L. Cline @188: So you don’t like the federal income tax, I can see why people might not like that. But what’s wrong with directly electing senators? It’s so much more democratic!

And while we’re at it, how do you feel about the 19th amendment? Or the 13th amendment?

Democratic? Your brainwashing is showing. The founders were adamantly opposed to a democracy, describing it as follows, after describing its historical results: “A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.” –James Madison, Federalist No. 10
The founders did not create a democracy. They created a Constitutional Republic with democratically-chosen representation. They were also specifically opposed to voter initiatives due to their vulnerability to manipulated factionalism, and subversive Michael Bloomberg is currently taking great advantage of those States foolish enough to have established voter initiatives in their Constitutions.

Facts, Mr. D. Cline? Every one of your so-called facts has been debunked as paranoid ramblings.
Here’s a fact for you: calling me a Marxist or nearly any other kind of -ist is so far off the mark that it’s ludicrous. You are about as accurate in identifying my politics as you are making a medical diagnosis from Fox News.
Since this blog and it’s comments are pretty much intended to discuss nonsense masquerading as medicine, you are wasting our time and yours. No one but you believes or cares what you think about William Jennings Brian or Philander Knox.
Incidentally, I have read the Communist Manifesto more than once, and the US Constitution many times more than once. The former is a quaint little book that’s about as relevant to this century as an 18th Century travel guide to Canada. The latter is very much alive and relevant, and your viewpoint on the relation of the states to the government was considered and decisively rejected while Alexander Hamilton lived on Earth. Most remaining doubts were quelled by the War of Southern Sedition. Further, even if you were right (which I firmly believe you are not), doing anything to overturn that view now would make landing an oil tanker in a kiddie pool look simple by comparison.

Never debunked at all. Illegally ignored by the rogue powers that be to our eternal detriment, but never debunked. To debunk them would require debunking the United States Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Federalist Papers, and the Documents Illustrative of the formation of the Union of the American States. To the extent the federal government erroneously believes they are debunked, and acts upon that belief in a manner violative of the aforementioned documents, the federal government has not escaped their authority but has simply abdicated its lawful authority to govern and that authority is restored to the sovereign-nation States that created it and ratified it, and to the people inhabiting them. See the Tenth Amendment, Dave, for starters. Alexander Hamilton had no authority to debunk Constitutional principles and in fact did not, though he tried. What you call “The War of Southern Sedition” was a put up job by British operatives still trying to restore control over their colonies, and Abraham Lincoln violated every principle of the Constitution in his prosecution of that war and established the illegal precedent that presidents and government does not have to obey the principles of the U.S. Constitution and the other aforementioned documents. Words mean things, Dave, and nothing you have listed changes the meaning of the words in the U.S. Constitution one iota. To the extent government violates that document, government has abdicated its lawful authority to govern, and it is time the States do not secede as the South tried to do, but rather declare the 16th and 17th Amendments null and void for lack of ratification pursuant to Article V, recall their imposter senators, choose new ones as the Constitution requires, and send them to Washington to represent them in the Senate. Even one State could do that and the rest would follow in an avalanche. The federal government is the wholly-owned subsidiary of the sovereign nation-States that created and ratified it, and nothing the federal government has ever done or will ever do can change that.

JP: No, I just think that constituitional monarchy works out pretty well in practice. It’s certainly better than what we have now.

Bulldust. A Constitutional monarchy does not limit the monarchy and does not protect the rights and liberties of the people. Never has and never will. It’s like reading the Constitution of the USSR, which lists dozens of rights of the people, none of which are protected by government because government issued those rights. They are not rights; they are privileges. Our Constitution Republic is founded on the theory that individual rights and liberties are a matter of birthright and beyond the reach of government. We have appellate and supreme court rulings (back when the Supreme still had some integrity) pointing out specifically that individual rights are flatly beyond the reach of government. Government has nothing to say about their exercise. A monarchy, founded upon a constitutional pretense or not. functions under the Rule of Man. Our liberties are under the Rule of Law no man or collection of men (or women), government thugs or not, has/have the authority to abridge. Why do you want a form of government that takes your right to choose your own path away from you?

As a card-carrying [ 😉 ] anarcho-syndicalist, I can say we don’t get much credit from anybody.

And an anarcho-syndicalist doesn’t deserve any from anybody. Anarcho-syndicalists do not recognize any authority higher than their syndicate, and the society they create is remarkably similar to Somalian warlords.

I once made a joke at work about us having to take a loyalty oath before being allowed to use a piece of equipment. You know, the one that starts “I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the Communist party.”
Except that most of my co-workers were adult immigrants from China and Ukraine.
Oops.

If you cannot, or are unwilling, to take that oath, or your adult immigrant co-workers cannot or are unwilling to, none of you should be here. Same with what the media calls “radical” Islam, which is not radical to the creed of Islam at all.

Wouldn’t prohibiting “Marxism” actually be a form of tyranny?

If you cannot, or are unwilling, to take that oath, or your adult immigrant co-workers cannot or are unwilling to, none of you should be here.

So, you advocate tyranny when it suits you, but when it doesn’t, you don’t. Gotya.
Marxism, which you’ve been unable to define, is OK, but loyalty oaths should be allowed, the very first amendment be damned.

So, what other parts of the Constitution do you consider optional or only to mean some Orwellian version of what they actually say? What other superseded documents are you going to reference, as you’ve referenced a declaration of war and a document that lost power when the Constitution was ratified?

Indeed, you cite Bloomberg starting a myth that we’re a representative democracy, which requires him to have a time machine, as Jefferson himself acknowledged that which we are!

Oh, for the record, calling people Commies and whores isn’t debating, it’s pathetic ad hominem attacks with zero evidence, zero debating, just name calling like a brat in a schoolyard.

Your “Gotya” is premature and presumptuous at best.

You are reversing the order of posts in an effort to create an impression of culpability that suits you. I said “If you cannot, or are unwilling, to take that oath, or your adult immigrant co-workers cannot or are unwilling to, none of you should be here.” I also added a caveat that the laws the oath swears to uphold have to be legitimate constitutional laws, not illegal government fiats.

THEN you (or someone) asked “Wouldn’t prohibiting “Marxism” actually be a form of tyranny?” And I replied “Depends on whether they have declared war or not.” (Or words to that effect.)

For your information, Wzrd1, as I have stated before, Marxism is already prohibited in this country by our Constitution, just as liberty we take for granted is prohibited in communist China, North Korea, etc.

You, I, everyone else, whether citizen or immigrant (legal or illegal) are subject to our law. You can practice Marxism in your own life if you want to, so long as you do not infringe upon the rights of others, but it is a violation of the rights of others for it to be imposed upon them by the force of law. (That’s how it is supposed to be, but our government is illegally giving quite a few illegal immigrants a pass on our law, and that is illegal. To the extent any of those illegal immigrants are enemy combatants, it is giving aid and comfort to the enemies of our nation, and that is the definition of Treason.

I have a U.S. Constitution open in front of me, Please advise where in the 1st Amendment an oath of allegiance to the United States of America, or simply an oath agreeing to uphold and defend legitimate U.S. and State law is prohibited.

If you think standing up for the U.S. Constitution and the Rule of Law and publicly saying so is a violation of your rights under the 1st Amendment, then you must be either a Democrat or an enemy agent, and in most cases I’m not sure there is any difference.

No part of the U.S. Constitution (which, btw, was to put into effect the principles set forth in the Declaration of Independence among other reasons) is optional for any officer or agent of the United States government, State government, or local government. All such are sworn to uphold and defend it. All of it.

Now, you make an assertion I never made: You claim, “Indeed, you cite Bloomberg starting a myth that we’re a representative democracy, which requires him to have a time machine, as Jefferson himself acknowledged that which we are!” HUH? I don’t believe I ever said anything remotely like that sentence. I did say we are not a democracy (and I quoted James Madison who said so) and I pointed out that we are a Constitutional Republic, and that we choose our representatives democratically. I also decried the voter initiative process some States have foolishly added to their Constitutions, and pointed out that subversive Bloomberg is using that as a tool to sucker citizens into giving up their rights under the 2nd, 4th, 5th, 9th, and 10th Amendments (which, btw, we have already been doing under the illegal Brady Act forcing us to ask permission of government to exercise our right to keep and bear arms and waiving the aforementioned rights to get that permission). That being said, your reference to a “time machine” and the rest of that sentence makes no sense at all.

Try not to put words in my mouth, Wrzd1. Ask and I will try to answer honestly.

Your last sentence: Oh. I should call commie whores and Marxist Mafia apparatchiks and their “useful idiots” who have been conducting an illegal insurgency against the supreme law of the land since before 1925 “just nice people who have our best interests at heart”? Bulldust, Wrzd1. I’m not going to give them that credit and neither should you if you have a shred of respect for what America stands for. Their agenda is evil and because of it we are right on the precipice of destruction as a free country. Trump is our last chance and frankly that last chance is incredibly thin, given the number of murder victims already racked up who have been prepared to testify against the culprits.

For oaths, the only oaths required under the Constitution are for legislators, officers of the executive or judicial branch and only to swear to support the Constitution of the United States of America.
That’s Article Six.
Requiring people outside of that narrow grouping to swear any oath is inventing a section of the Constitution out of whole cloth and not permitted.

“For your information, Wzrd1, as I have stated before, Marxism is already prohibited in this country by our Constitution…”
Erm, Marxism is a political and economic system, the Constitution defines neither, only duties, rights and responsibilities, as well as limitations of each branch of government and the several states. Again, inventing Constitutional things out of whole cloth.
Declaring illegal aliens as unlawful combatants adds, yet again, out of whole cloth, that which has never been a part of our Constitution and indeed, is unlawful under ratified treaties, which are granted the force of law by our Constitution. Criminals are not by nature enemies of the state in a military sense, which is what you seek to define, I’m guessing that you yearn for martial law.

“If you think standing up for the U.S. Constitution and the Rule of Law and publicly saying so is a violation of your rights under the 1st Amendment, then you must be either a Democrat or an enemy agent, and in most cases I’m not sure there is any difference.”

So, now you’d prohibit an entire political party! That’s fine, the second amendment protects my rights, as well as the courts, the US Army, US Navy, US Marine Corps and US Air Force, as well as every law enforcement agency in the land, you’ll not usurp my rights very easily and oh, I have my own copy of the Constitution with me at all times as well.
Forcing oaths, selecting authorized religions and prohibiting political parties are all using the first amendment as toilet paper.

“No part of the U.S. Constitution (which, btw, was to put into effect the principles set forth in the Declaration of Independence among other reasons) is optional for any officer or agent of the United States government, State government, or local government. All such are sworn to uphold and defend it. All of it.”

Bullshit. Again. Inventing entire Constitutional entries out of whole cloth. The Declaration of Independence was a declaration of war, just as the declaration of war against Japan and Germany were, we don’t add those to our Constitution, nor did the Declaration of Independence suddenly gain standing in preference to the Constitution. Itexpired when the Constitution was ratified, as did the Articles of Confederation.

The only way that Bloomberg could make a fiction that we’re a representative democracy would be for him to go back and tell Jefferson and the rest of the founders that “fiction”, as everyone who didn’t subscribe to the federalist papers disagreed with them. That wasn’t the only opinion then at all, as is reflected in our Constitution.
Interestingly, I haven’t had to petition anyone to purchase and own firearms. At all. Ever. The same is true for ammunition. I don’t need permission of the federal government to go to a range, fire on my private property or the permission of any government to hunt on my own property. More inventions of a fevered mind, painted out of whole cloth.

Do see the Snopes article on the Clintons and how their “murder spree” (or whatever you want to call it) never happened, was entirely contrived and invented. The same is true of essentially every other claim of yours and honestly, you border on sedition in some of your statements. I haven’t done any such thing.
Of course, when it comes to having each of our words weighed in a court of law, it’s your fevered dreams and near-sedition vs my word, that of a cleared person and trusted agent of our government.
Why, I’ve even been trusted to handle nuclear weapons, I’m quite certain that you’d never be permitted anywhere near them.

Regardless, I have no more time to waste on you, it’s bedtime.

Wzrd1: “For oaths, the only oaths required under the Constitution are for legislators, officers of the executive or judicial branch and only to swear to support the Constitution of the United States of America.
“That’s Article Six.”
True.
“Requiring people outside of that narrow grouping to swear any oath is inventing a section of the Constitution out of whole cloth and not permitted. ”
Not true. Oaths are also required by the 4th Amendment and Article I Section 3 Clause 6, and by Vattel’s Law of Nations, which was well-settled law at the time of our nation’s founding, which the founders were said to have constantly at their side during their deliberations, and which was incorporated by reference in the U.S. Constitution at Article I Section 8 Clause 10. (This is the same encyclopedia of international law accepted by all the civilized nations at the time of our founding, and which defines “Natural-Born Citizen” as one born on the soil of the country of parents who are both citizens of the country, making Zerobama (aka Barry Soetoro) ineligible to the Office of POTUS.)
“Erm, Marxism is a political and economic system, the Constitution defines neither, only duties, rights and responsibilities, as well as limitations of each branch of government and the several states.”
The political and economic system of which violates the Constitution of the United States in multiple ways (as, btw, does Sharia Law.) It is therefore legal to profess a belief in it, but illegal to impose it by force, and when it comes to national security it is perfectly legal to compel an oath denying it as a precondition to engaging in work or activities of a sensitive (to national security) nature. No one is compelled to swear or affirm the oath. Neither does anyone have a “right” to be employed without meeting the requirements of the employer.

I did not declare illegal aliens as enemy combatants any more than Donald Trump declared illegal aliens a rapists, murderers, or drug pushers. I said, open borders allows enemy combatants to enter. Donald Trump said illegal immigration includes rapists, murderers, and drug pushers, and various atrocities committed around the country by illegal aliens proves him correct.
You clearly oppose a wall at the border to keep illegal aliens out. If I point out to you I don’t like the idea of a wall at the border either because it can be used by our rogue occupation government to keep people in, will you change your accusation against me from “paranoid over illegal aliens” to “paranoid over illegal government?”
See what I don’t like about apologists for tyranny? People like you would kick if you were being hung with a new rope.
If that political party seeks to destroy our Rule of Law, you are damned right I would prohibit an entire political party, or at least enforce the Constitutional prohibitions against its proposed laws, and so should you. The prohibitions are not currently being imposed against that party and its First Enemy Agent, and that is outrageous. If you believed in the liberties under the Rule of Law our nation was founded to preserve and protect, you would be outraged too.

I had to laugh out loud when I reached the place in your message in which you invoke the Constitution and your right to keep and bear arms and the military, yada yada yada to justify your right to advocate the destruction of all those institutions, and I shake my head wondering what you think you are accomplishing. Here’s a test: Based on what you have said before, and what you say here about your rights, tell me: Does all that sanguinity about the rights of illegal aliens and enemy agents extend to supporters of ISIS? Are you prepared to allow ISIS soldiers onto U.S. soil without impediment of any kind? If you do, please forgive me for asking this, but what the hell kind of an idiot are you?

No one said anything about “forcing oaths.” JustaTech described being required to swear he is not now nor has ever been a member of the Communist Party. He’s not being “forced;” he is being given a choice: Swear the oath, and mean it, or collect your pink slip. Neither one is a violation of his rights.

No one said anything about “selecting authorized religions” Islam is not a religion; it is a political ideology and complete civilian infrastructure based the superiority of naked force, and it is masquerading as a ‘religion’ in an attempt to justify its “Divine Right to Govern.” Even if you insist it is a religion, demanding adherence to the 1st Amendment in this regard is suicide. Islam will kill you as soon as it has the superior numbers to do so. “When they are in the minority, Muslims are obsessed with ‘minority rights.’ When they become the majority, there ARE NO minority rights.” Turn on the news and watch what is happening in Europe right now because of their IDIOTIC open border policies and naiveté about “religious freedom.”

Oh, boy. Wzrd1, you can do what you want and believe what you want, but I recommend you set yourself down and read the Declaration of Independence again. It was most certainly NOT a “declaration of war.” It was a declaration of independence founded upon a litany of tyrannies imposed by the king and an assertion of right to self-government. It did not say “Declaration of War Against Great Britain;” it set forth the causes of the separation from Great Britain and left the arrogant little twerp of a king the choice of accepting it or throwing a tantrum. The fact they knew what the king would do doesn’t change the reality, Wzrd1.

It is absolutely astonishing to me that anyone could think the principles set forth in the Declaration of Independence ceased to exist when the Constitution was ratified. Every principle asserted in that document is established in the Constitution as a principle of governance. To claim otherwise is to claim the restoration of feudal government and the Rule of Man.

I’m almost as astonished by your next incredible claim as I am confused by how you came up with it: “The only way Bloomberg could make a fiction that we’re a representative democracy …” For a start, Bloomberg isn’t “making that fiction;” he is abusing the DIRECT democracy some States have written into their Constitutions. “A REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY is a form of government where the powers of the sovereignty are delegated to a body of men, elected from time to time, who exercise them for the benefit of the whole nation.” (1 Bouv. Inst. n. 31.) Synonym: “INdirect democracy.” That is what we have, Wrzd1, an INDIRECT Democracy in which the people do not vote directly on issues; rather, they vote to elect representatives to vote on issues and those representatives are sworn to uphold and defend the United States Constitution every time, no exceptions, no excuses.

The U.S. Senate is supposed to represent the States as a separate entity from the people with different interests, and who created the federal government in the first place or ratified it in the case of late-comers. That was the case until the Secretary of State illegally declared the 17th Amendment ratified in direct and egregious violation of Article V: A mutiny against the States.

Then I take it you have never purchased a firearm from a licensed firearm dealer since 1993? Because if you have, you had to complete an interrogation (which is a search) in violation of your right to be secure from search in the absence of probable cause of wrongdoing; you had to waive your right to due process by a Court of Law before your right to keep and bear arms could be permitted; you had to waive your right to be secure from having to give up any right in order to be allowed to exercise the right to keep and bear arms, and you had to waive your right to be secure from federal exercise of authority not delegated to the federal government. And after 1998, you had to endure a NICS search of government records in your name, which is also a 4th Amendment search in violation of your right to be secure from search in the absence of probable cause of wrongdoing.

None of the above is within the lawful delegated powers of the federal government, Wzrd1. What rights do you have left when the federal government revokes its permission it has granted you to keep and bear arms? (If you bought any from a licensed firearm dealer.)

If subversive Bloomberg wins to his prize of requiring the above of each of you every time you hand a firearm to a friend to marvel over and every time he hands it back, AS HE ALREADY HAS IN COLORADO, OREGON, AND WASHINGTON, then we have all (he thinks) lost the above rights at the State level as well. (He’s wrong, because neither the federal government or State government or voter initiative has the authority to scam the people out of their rights either, but it is going to be a dust-up of magnificent proportions.)

Ah. Your second to the last paragraph says it all: “… my word, that of a trusted agent of our government. Why, I’ve even been trusted to handle nuclear weapons.”

I’m sure glad not all government agents are as willing as you are to throw your weight around in confrontation with the Constitutional Rule of Law, but unfortunately too many are. They need — and you need — to read the U.S. Constitution from the point of view of a servant of the people, not a warlord in charge of the people. With the exception of Article I Section 8 Clause 3, government agents have precious little authority over private citizens, and virtually none within the borders of any State. The fact that government ignores its Constitutional limitations does not make it legal.

Sleep well. Dream of being powerless against the rights of the people.

Comedy gold here. I’m tellin’ ya, ya can’t make stuff like this up. (At least I can’t.) Donald Trump is going to be on The Dr. Oz Show next week and reveal his health regimen:

http://www.joemygod.com/2016/09/09/instead-of-releasing-his-medical-records-trump-will-reveal-his-health-regimen-on-quack-dr-oz-show/

Other than the fact that Trump doesn’t smoke or drink alcohol, what does he do? I recall reading an article that revealed that Trump really, really loves fast food and while on the campaign trail frequently sends aides out to McDonald’s to get him grub.

Why do I think that Trump’s health regimen will sound like the script from “The effects of gamma rays on man-in-the moon marigolds”?

I just think that constituitional monarchy works out pretty well in practice.

Well all hail to princess Fuzzybutt.

That works. That’s what Princess Fuzzybutts do. Anyone owned by one or more cats knows what I am talking about.

Your definition of “Political Trolls” doesn’t meet the test of Occam’s Razor. Political trolls are people — usually the “useful idiots” as V.I. Lenin described his followers — who go around not contributing to discussions or debates, but doing everything they can to disrupt them.

Another irony meter destroyed. Damn, I need to buy some backups.

You can’t be referring to me, for I am inviting serious debate, in which so far the posters on this forum seem incapable of engaging.

If your labeling people who disagree with you “Commies” or “Marxists” is “serious debate,” you have a very different definition of the term “serious debate” than I do—and pretty much everyone else does.

Wars are not won by being nice, and we are at war. Communists and communist sympathizers — whores, one and all — have declared war on our nation and our liberties and have been conducting an insurgency to that end since 1925. I do not apologize for calling those who support that ideology, which is totally devoid of moral principle, integrity, or decency, whores. I also admit to using the term to wake up those who support it ignorantly, hoping they will defend themselves and be forced to examine their perspective. They must we awakened to the reality; we are on the very precipice of losing our Rule of Law permanently; we have already lost it temporarily.

Don’t give yourself airs. So far I haven’t seen any Marxist mafia field grades on this pitiful list; I have only seen their useful idiots who are incapable of perceiving contrary facts to their thesis, much less presenting them. The field grades usually come in later when their useful idiots go whining to their handlers complaining “He’s kicking our ass!”

Apparently Mr. Cline considers this “inviting serious debate.”

It was a serious answer to an attempt to dissemble. This is not a game and I am not here to get my jollies off. I’m here to advocate the restoration of the principles our nation was founded to preserve and protect. Except for Old Rock Dave (thank you for the substance in spite of your elitist contempt), nothing I’ve seen here from anyone rises to the level of a serious discussion, let alone debate. Anyone want to discuss or debate the repair of the first nation in the history of the planet to be founded on the principle that YOUR individual rights trumps the arbitrary whim of kings and princes and neighborhood warlords every time, no exceptions, no excuses?

Wasn’t a debate; it was a statement of fact — he or she was trying to be cute and claimed something about me that was clearly untrue.

I have a simple test for any wing-nut claiming any knowledge of Marx: Without looking it up, name the topic of Chapter 1 of Capital. None of the frothing doofusi* have passed yet.

* ‘Doofusi’ is indeed a cool plural, in the sense that using it for ‘more than one doofus’ (as opposed to the dictionary-proper ‘doofuses’) typically indicates a cool, ironic mock-erudition. Since our visitor is anything but cool, I suspect he doesn’t get the ironic self-mocking connotation and is attempting-and-failing actual erudition.

Which “Capital”? And you are using obfuscation to analyze erudition; typical of a sophomore.

Dimbulb: I wasn’t nominating myself. Maybe the time has come for the US to ask Britain to take us back.

Orac: Trump doesn’t drink? How is that possible if he lives in New York?

Correct. He claims never to have drunk a drop of booze in his life, although I have a hard time believing that, given how ubiquitous alcoholic beverages are and how almost everyone has at least tried beer or wine by they time they’re in college. I do believe that he doesn’t drink and hasn’t since he was a young man:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/dec/1/donald-trump-touts-lifestyle-without-alcohol-drugs/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisbarth/2011/03/11/donald-trump-and-nine-other-teetotalling-moguls/#f8241ac5ba34

His older brother Fred struggled with alcoholism for many years and ultimately died of it:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/03/us/politics/for-donald-trump-lessons-from-a-brothers-suffering.html

I have a hard time believing that because it’s Trump. Also, since the 1920s, drinking has practically been a requirement for membership in New York’s upper class. (I think, of the populous cities at the time, New York and San Francisco were totally non-compliant during Prohibition.)
Telling the truth is nearly impossible for Trump, but the whole not drinking thing explains a lot. Every time a teetotaller gets into office they manage to be disastrous.

Strange that you think telling the truth is nearly impossible for Trump; most everything he has said that has driven the left into apoplexy upon sober investigation has turned out to be either true or highly justified.

And please list the teetotalers in the White House history that have proven to be disastrous and in what way were they disastrous. Was it because they took the job seriously and paid attention to it like competent professionals?

His older brother Fred struggled with alcoholism for many years and ultimately died of it

Am I the only one who is unable to locate an actual cause of death? He was 43. By contrast, Pigpen’s medical history is rather well documented.

Maybe it’s something inherited.

The world is considerably different than it was in the 2nd decade of the 20th. Century. Was this idiot thinking that if Hilary were incapacitated, Bill Clinton would – or would be allowed – to speak and act for her as Edlith Wilson did after Woodrow Wilson’s (IIRC) stroke? Not possible in these days of, among other things, media saturation. To quote Bugs Bunny, “What a maroon!”

Anything is possible if the American media is carrying the water for the traitor in chief. This has been proven every day for the last seven and a half years.

Oops. Didn’t read entire thread of responses. I see someone already mentioned Mrs. Wilson.

No, I just think that constituitional monarchy works out pretty well in practice. It’s certainly better than what we have now.

I’m not sure what difference having a figurehead with little actual power makes, but whatever floats your boat.

Glad you clarified, though, because I have actually encountered died-in-the-wool Tsarists. I sh!t you not.

^There was also the Orthodox priest who, when somebody said that “democracy is the worst system of government in the world, except for all the other kinds,” replied, “well, except for a godly monarch.”

Okay…

The Orthodox priest was wrong. There is very little to recommend a theocracy, whether it is based on a religious foundation, or based upon an erroneous secular foundation, like the cultural Marxism nonsense that no prayer must ever be uttered in school. Is everyone aware that “the words “separation of church and States” does not appear in the U.S. Constitution, and that the Washington DC capital buildings were used for religious services on Sundays for many years after the founding of our nation?

Our founders were smarter than that, and created a form of government that prohibits both, and all other forms of tyranny.

Our founders created a form of government that prohibits Marxism? There is a Communist Party USA, after all.

Wouldn’t prohibiting “Marxism” actually be a form of tyranny?

Depends upon whether they are engaging in an insurgency or overt combat to overthrow our form of government or not. Ditto Islam.

The Orthodox priest was wrong.

Sweet G-d, I wasn’t suggesting that he was right. His comment had nothing to do with a theocracy, though; he was another one who was literally a Tsarist, inasmuch as he was in love with Nicholas the Second, who would have been lovely tending roses in Somerset.

But it isn’t entirely clear that you’re really responding to anybody at all here except yourself.

I see that dnldlcln’s “location” has changed from (The Sovereign State Of) Arizona to, ah, “American.”

The writing is on the wall. The darkness is at noon. Dress appropriately.

If the founders prohibited fascism, how do you explain Trump and Cline?

While the Constitution doesn’t prohibit Marxism de jure, eminent early 20th Century historian Charles Beard did argue it was a counter-revolutionary move to secure power for the capital-holding elite, and undermine “the radical democratic tendencies unleashed by the Revolution among the common people, especially farmers and debtors.” Maybe that’s why, when Thomas Paine returned to America from France in 1802, “Federalists attacked him for his ideas of government stated in Common Sense, George Washington abandoned him, he was denied the right to vote as the Governor of New York “did not recognize him as an American”, and only six mourners (two of them black) came to his funeral. (all quotes are from Wikepedia)

Calling yourself a radical-lefty is OK, but actually acting like one got you executed by robber barons (Homestead strikers), executed by the local Law (the Haymarket martyrs; Joe Hill; Harlan County War; Fred Hampton), executed by redneck goons (Goodman, Chaney and Schwerner; Greensboro), executed by the National Guard (Pullmann strike; Kent State), beaten-arrested-imprisoned-deported by the Feds (the Palmer raids), blacklisted (HUAC)…

So, yeah, for the de facto government stance on marxism, ‘tyranny’ might be an understatement.

As for the founders creating a form of government that prohibits all forms of tyranny that protects the individual from the whims of oligarchs and warlords “every time, no exceptions,” I think Nat Turner and Taoyateduta would beg to disagree on the de jure point…

You seem to have difficulty understanding the difference between the Rule of Law and outlawry. You seem to think if government (or the people) violate the law or the principle of the Rule of Law, then the law has been changed or is clearly defeated. That sort of view is the result of thinking that the Rule of Man is superior to the Rule of Law. Fundamentally, that is a false, fraudulent, and in many cases self-serving philosophy. If you wish to understand what I am saying, it would be better to adopt the position that the Rule of Law is our foundation of government and start demanding it be enforced rather than trying to claim it is irrelevant because rogue government and criminals (I repeat myself) violate it.

If you cannot, or are unwilling, to take that oath, or your adult immigrant co-workers cannot or are unwilling to, none of you should be here.

I’ll join you in ignoring any mention of it being a joke about the oath. These are serious issues nobody should be allowed to jest about.

Guilt by association? How’s that for individual’s inalienable rights…

But given how you seem to believe even former membership would or should be grounds for exile (assuming your here meant the country), what’ are your views on personal growth or ideological conversion?

Not to mention how little the Chinese “communist” party has resembled or even been related to marxism or communist ideology in decades.

Same with what the media calls “radical” Islam, which is not radical to the creed of Islam at all.

How would your muslim-free America work with personal freedom triumphing government enforcement? This is a serious question and I’m eagerly awaiting your educated insights; I assume the “go to hell” in your previous reply to me was merely a unthoughtful knee jerk reaction flowing from private feelings of insecurity, and not spite directed at me for asking a simple question.*

* There’s no evidence that Lenin used the term “useful idiots”, especially to refer to his followers, regardless of countless attributions (all without first hand sources).

In the order listed:

“Guilt by association?” Nothing I said advocates guilt by association. If they are foreign citizens on U.S. soil, they are subject to U.S. law regardless of their personal creed. If they cannot submit to our law then they shouldn’t be here. If a citizen of our country cannot submit to our law then they should be legally sanctioned. OTOH, if either is willing to submit to our law then an oath to do so should not be impossible for them. (By ‘law,’ of course, I’m not referring to any fiat government decides to impose; I am referring to Constitutional law government is authorized to legislate and enforce and adjudicate.

Re “personal growth and ideological conversion”: I believe in both, and I believe they can go either way — i.e., to an appreciation for the principles of liberty under the Rule of Law our nation was founded to preserve and protect or to a hatred of it. Though I would not call the latter “personal growth,” but that is merely an opinion.

Re “Chinese ‘communist’ party”: Irrelevant. While the hair-splitting indicators of “true” Marxism may have become blurred as its leadership realizes the ideology is failing economically and in every other way, it remains an authoritarian tyranny at all levels, with neighborhood party apparatchiks holding the power of life and death over their “subjects.” A couple of years ago villagers in a Chinese province became incensed over the local apparatchiks confiscating the property of villagers to sell to developers for their own profit, and started raising hell demanding to be “heard” by the Party. Finally the Party came in with force and promised to “listen” but “no more disruption on pain of death!” Okay, so they listened, saw what was going on, made a big show of “firing” the local apparatchiks (read “transferred them to another province after confiscating most of their ill-gotten gains, leaving them the balance as a bonus for good work”), and promising the locals that it would not happen again. A few weeks later the ringleaders of the demonstrations were quietly “disappeared” or found to be the victims of “unfortunate accidents.” Whether it meets the precise definitions of “Marxism” or “Fascism” established by the Piled Higher and Deeper crowd or not, it is totalitarianism on steroids and once established can never be abolished.

Re “Muslim-free America.” A few years ago my wife was advancing the corporate ladder as a purchasing agent. She had a string of successive positions in different companies, primarily due to the fact that she was treated like s–t by her corporate superiors, and seemed to have no recourse. She was talked down to, required to work overtime without overtime pay (being salaried), skipped over for raises and promotions, insulted, and generally mistreated. After six companies, the very first supervisor to treat her with respect, who rewarded her good work, who touted her qualities to upper management, who got her raises, who gave her excellent reviews, etc., etc., was a self-professed devout Muslim with a Master’s in business administration from Egypt. I don’t know his immigrations status, whether he was naturalized or not. This was, however, before ISIS, before Al Qaida, etc. Knowing what I know now about Islam, about the fact their Qu’ran REQUIRES them to lie, cheat, steal, and do whatever is necessary to gain dominance over the infidel, would I trust him? No, but neither would I restrict him absent hostile indications. But today we are at war. I don’t think we were right to intern Japanese during WWII, and I don’t think we should intern Muslim today. But we sure as hell don’t need to admit any more without very careful vetting (which is impossible in many cases) and absolute prohibition against the rise of Sharia Law. If they want to live here they are subject to our law.

Re “go to hell”: I don’t tell people to “go to hell;” it does not lead to constructive dialogue. I therefore reject your quote.

Re Lenin’s “useful idiot” quote. See the discussion at http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=135140

Democratic? Your brainwashing is showing. The founders were adamantly opposed to a democracy, describing it as follows, after describing its historical results: “A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.” –James Madison,

Funny how much that sounds like what fueled the rise of Donald Trump.

By “funny” I presume you mean “strange.”

But there is nothing funny or strange about it. Fundamental principles is exactly what has fueled the rise of Donald Trump.

Wars are not won by being nice, and we are at war. Communists and communist sympathizers — whores, one and all — have declared war on our nation and our liberties and have been conducting an insurgency to that end since 1925. I do not apologize for calling those who support that ideology, which is totally devoid of moral principle, integrity, or decency, whores. I also admit to using the term to wake up those who support it ignorantly, hoping they will defend themselves and be forced to examine their perspective. They must we awakened to the reality; we are on the very precipice of losing our Rule of Law permanently; we have already lost it temporarily.

Hmmm. Your words sound familiar:

Germany is today the next great war aim of Bolshevism. It requires all the force of a young missionary idea to raise our people up again, to free them from the snares of this international serpent, and to stop the inner contamination of our blood, in order that the forces of the nation thus set free can be thrown in to safeguard our nationality, and thus can prevent a repetition of the recent catastrophes down to the most distant future.

If we pursue this aim, it is sheer lunacy to ally ourselves with a power whose master is the mortal enemy of our future. How can we expect to free our own people from the fetters of this poisonous embrace if we walk right into it? How shall we explain Bolshevism to the German worker as an accursed crime against humanity if we ally ourselves with the organizations of this spawn of hell, thus recognizing it in the larger sense?

– Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, 1924

.

I see little or no comparison between the two either in purpose on in straight text. Given what is clearly going on in Europe because of their incredibly naïve and stupid open borders to Muslims, are you seriously suggesting America should suffer the same fate lest we sound like Hitler?

Except for Old Rock Dave (thank you for the substance in spite of your elitist contempt), nothing I’ve seen here from anyone rises to the level of a serious discussion, let alone debate.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Seriously, though. I’m laughing my posterior off at you. You whine about there not being “serious” discussion and debate here, and yet you call people whores, Commies, and all manner of other names. You, sir, are a flaming hypocrite unworthy of serious engagement.

In the words on one famous fantasy princess, “Laugh it up, Furball.”

So prove me wrong. Prove to me those I am calling Commie whores, Marxist Mafia, etc., are not freaking whores selling out our nation for their own aggrandizement and power trip. You accuse me of “whining” about you not engaging in serious debate, and yet all you can do is whine about me calling our nation’s internal enemies exactly what they are. Yet, contrary to your empty assertion; I am not whining: I am challenging. I expect this from you and some others on this board because that’s what leftists have trained you to do since birth — don’t challenge what you are told; listen to authority, don’t make people feel uncomfortable, government knows what’s best for you, “I’m from the government; I’m here to help you.” And when the entire infrastructure falls apart because of these adam henries, you are taught to blame not those who are leading you down the garden path; you are taught to blame those who are calling these rogue occupation government whores what they are. Yes, I am calling for a serious discussion. Are you up to it?

Quoted by Saul Alinsky in “Rules for Radicals.” Ask him when you get to Hell.

More of Mr. Cline’s “serious debate,” I believe.

Mr. Cline is definitely a troll, and what do we do with trolls? One thing we do not do is to feed them. I succumbed to the temptation just now. Sorry.

As for Mr. Cline’s flooding the thread with numerous annoying comments, if it persists I might have to put him on the slow moderate filter. His comments will get through, but only when I get around to approving them, which could be anywhere from a few minutes to a few hours to overnight if he posts right before my bedtime. 🙂

Your call. I wouldn’t be surprised; that’s what the Marxist mafia’s ‘useful idiots’ always do when they can’t debate the issues or face the discomfort of finding out they and their parents, grandparents, great grandparents — however many back to at least Abraham Lincoln — have been lied to since birth. It is the Marxist/Fascist/totalitarian way: If your thesis is challenged, shut off the challenger. And when they win, the challengers are not merely shut off; they are always locked up and most catch a bullet in the back of the head and a mass grave. Before you filter me out, do a little research and find out how many genocides have occurred in the world in the last one hundred years because the ideologies I’m fighting won, and how many innocent people have been murdered. Then you might want to decide if you want to help it happen again on our own soil.

I just knew an allusion to Alinsky had to appear, sooner or later (there is an offshoot of the Woo Order that loves to complain about “Alinsky tactics” whenever it is getting its rhetorical butt kicked).

Mr. Cline is probably disappointed that Lyndon Larouche isn’t being discussed as a serious Presidential candidate this time around. 🙁

That’s what the Alinsky model does, rhetorically — i.e., without a shred of substance — kick the butt of the opposition. Do I need to point out that Hillary Clinton’s political science thesis paper was a swoon for Saul Alinsky, with the caveat that she didn’t think he was willing to use naked force enough?
And btw, calling people who oppose political tyranny the “Woo Order” and other pejorative names does not limit the political tyranny they oppose; rather, it facilitates it. Using that technique marks you as a supporter of political tyranny.

Donny: What, did you pull a Rip Van Winkle from 2000 to 2008? Bush the younger was easily one of the worst presidents we ever had. Other dishonorable mentions include Warren G Harding, who spent his time in office cheating on his wife and ignoring both international politics and domestic scandals- look up teapot dome on Google,William Henry Harrison, who died in office because he decided to give a super long speech on a very cold day, leaving the office to an unprepared vice president, and Millard Fillmore, another president who certainly deserves to be considered as among the worst for his role in the Missouri Compromise which led directly to the Civil War. Sobering up does not make up for the years they spent killing brain cells, and the bizarre ways they compensated for the loss of their vice. In contrast, Ulysses Grant, who was pretty much a functioning alcoholic by today’s standards, managed to be a competent, if unmemorable and unskilled president. Most of the post-Revolutionary war presidents would also be considered functioning alcoholics by today’s standards, and yet they managed to keep the country together.

JP:I’m not sure what difference having a figurehead with little actual power makes, but whatever floats your boat.
It actually makes a fair amount of difference- look at England from 1900 on, or Japan post World- War 2. Humans are conditioned to want figureheads, and in emergencies, monarchs are good rallying points. In a constitutional monarchy, people are protected from the ruler’s whims and the ruler is often perceived to be able to curb reckless politicians, regardless of their actual power. Also, politicians can occasionally influence the selection of an heir- for example, though Prince Charles of England is the first-in line to the British throne, odds are that in the event of the Queen’s death, his son will actually inherit, since Charles has made too many enemies in Parliament.
Studying history has made me convinced that straight-up monarchy is a stupid idea, as for every good king or queen, there’s ten bad ones. At this point, though, I’m kinda thinking that humans are too stupid to deserve good governance.

I gather you seem to be under the delusion that I support the presidency of George W. or H.W. Bush. I certainly do not; aside from his visible support for the military they were both atrocious presidents, almost as bad as Jimmy Carter but nowhere near as viciously bad as Clinton, who wasn’t anywhere near as totally lawless and incompetent (or illegal by reason of lack of natural born citizenship) as ZeroBama (incompetent as a president; brilliant as an enemy agent), who will prove to be a piker compared to the vindictive narcissist destroyer Hillary Rodham Clinton.
I read the rest of your treatise and found nothing to dissuade me that there is one form of government that overcomes your “kinda thinking” that humans are too stupid to deserve good governance: You might be interested to know that in spite of your litany of complaints about presidents of old, the book “1900,” published at the turn of the century, pointed out that the American Constitution, with its system of checks and balances, and in particular its monetary system of intrinsic value, had advanced the living standard of the average working man, woman, and child more than it had advanced during the previous 25 centuries. That for the first time in history a nation was able to peacefully transfer power from one leadership to the next without war, without scuffle, without conquest. Then the adam henries we fought of in the War for Independence got their corrupt hooks into us again and we lost State control of the federal government; we lost our right to enjoy the fruits of our labors, and we lost our monetary system of intrinsic value. Today the descendants of the same banking families to whom Great Britain was a wholly-owned subsidiary when we won our independence from them are once again owners of our entire economy. They predicted they would be by the year 1900 when Andrew Jackson kicked them out with extreme prejudice in 1832, but they were 13 years late, executing their economic and political ‘coup’ in 1913. They also predicted regaining political control in the year 2000. They’re about that late again, and they are getting damned impatient.

Good Kings: Elvis, B. B., Carole.
Good Queens: Queen
Good Princes: Prince

As for the rest:

God save the queen / The fascist regime / Made you a moron / Potential H-bomb

God save the queen / She ain’t no human being / There is no future In England’s dreaming

Don’t be told what you want / Don’t be told what you need / There’s no future, no future, / No future for you

Oh God save history / God save your mad parade / Oh Lord God have mercy / All crimes are paid

When there’s no future / How can there be sin / We’re the flowers in the dustbin / We’re the poison in your human machine / We’re the future, your future

God save the queen / We mean it man / There is no future
In England’s dreaming

No future, no future, no future for you
No future, no future, no future for me
No future, no future, no future for you
No future
No future
For You!

It seems that Trump has had some memory problems for a while now. Perhaps dementia has set in.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/09/07/donald-trump-just-declared-himself-ineligible-for-the-presidency/?tid=hybrid_experimentrandom_2_na

And you give credit to a smarmy leftist rag like the Post?

I wasn’t talking to you or about you. The subject of this post was the folly of diagnosis without even meeting the person in question. But your confusion is partly my fault – I forgot the sarcasm tags.

The Washington Post left leaning editorial position is well known, and not in dispute. However, it appears that when you are presented with a story you don’t like, you think that saying “It’s the Washington Compost” is enough of a rebuttal.

So let’s do some fact checking –

The article notes Trump saying

Hillary and her top aides told the FBI and others related in the lawsuits that they couldn’t recall or remember — can’t remember anything! … By the way, if she really can’t remember, she can’t be president! She doesn’t remember anything! She doesn’t even remember whether or not she was instructed on how to use emails. ‘Were you instructed on how to use?’ ‘I can’t remember.’

Do you deny the accuracy of this quote?

The article goes on the quote Trump’s sworn testimony, where several of his answers were basically ‘I don’t remember’.

Do you deny the accuracy of the quoted portion of the transcripts? Do you think that Trump was lying about his ability to remember?

In short, can you point to a statement of fact in the article that is wrong, and back up that assertion with anything other than ‘It’s the Post, so they can’t be trusted’?

I do not deny the accuracy of the first quote. (I heard him say it myself.)

I cannot testify as to the accuracy and inaccuracy of the second quote, and because of the Post’s well-known left-leaning editorial stance I am suspicious of both its accuracy and of their intent in bringing it up. They support the Clinton criminal regime, and for that reason I am skeptical of anything they say and of the reasons they say it.

FWIW, I am also concerned about a Trump presidency. But I am terrified for my country at the prospect of a Hillary presidency regardless of whether she has Parkinson’s or not. She’s a freaking vindictive narcissist monster, and my only hope if she is elected is that she go off the rails so far and so fast that she is put in a padded cell somewhere before she can do much damage.

Comedy gold here. I’m tellin’ ya, ya can’t make stuff like this up.

Yup, the very idea is already an auto-joke, and one can only imagine the unintentional absurdist joke that the actual show will deliver.

Friday evening, when Rachel Maddow reported that Trump will reveal his “health regimen” on The Doctor Oz Show, laughter erupted from off-camera when she said “Oz”, and she did a sort of ‘Yeah, I know. Oz take to the camera in response.

Perhaps The Donald will be announcing the creation of Trump Hospital on-line seminars, and a branded line of dietary ‘Trumplements’ to share his health secrets with the rubes masses, all endorsed by the great Oz, natch.

@ Lawrence:

Oh my. You have actually revealed your *other* career-
I’ve always suspected as much.

“personal growth and ideological conversion”: I believe in both,

So do I. Therefore I think the whole McCarthyist hunt for the Communist boogeyman, especially the “nor have I ever been…” part is stupid, fruitless and contrary to the great American values. I’d refuse to swear that oath – not because I’m a communist (I’m not, not that it matters) but because of it’s witch-huntiness.

Which is the oath JustaTech made the joke about – I’m also making the wild assumption here that it was considerably later than the 40s and 50s (hence the joke – I doubt it was funny at the time).

Apologies to JustaTech for explaining the joke.

Re Lenin’s “useful idiot” quote. See the discussion at http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=135140

This is turning into mountain-out-of-a-mole-hill type of thing, but irregardless…

My estimation still stands; No first-hand evidence exists, only a tradition of attribution that is usually without source, or refers to other n:th-hand attributions. Could he have said it? Sure, but it’s not in anything he has written, and to my knowledge no person has come forward as claiming they heard him say it. So I personally avoid quoting him saying it, and occasionally point this out when somebody does. Haven’t read the History and Impact of Marxist-Leninist Organizational Theory mentioned in your link, and unless a copy conveniently appears before me, I probably won’t – I have far too many unread books I actually want to read for that.

The term (or rather, “useful fools”) was supposedly in use before Lenin was born, by Polish agents to describe nihilists before and during the January uprising of 1864.

Re “go to hell”: I don’t tell people to “go to hell;” it does not lead to constructive dialogue. I therefore reject your quote.

Your words: Ask him when you get to Hell.

For sure, go implies the journey, get the destination, but I still think that was an unnecessary addition hampering the chances of constructive dialogue.

Without adding to the ‘mountain out of a molehill’ you mention, I would like to correct a misapprehension on your part. I didn’t intend my remark to be regarded as an admonition to “go to hell,” though I can see now how you might have thought that. I was referring more to my certainty that Saul Alinsky is cooking there, and that failure to arise in opposition to tyranny and oppression will lead others there to meet him.

-btw-
As an active observer, I must note that woo-world has become thoroughly political, anti-Hillary propaganda whilst applauding the Orange One and/ or Third/ Fourth Party unlikely winners.

My own speculation ( see Natural News/ hear prn.fm) is that these guys are frightened of powerful women in charge and/ or HIGHER TAXES for high earners like themselves. Both would get a tax cut if Trump wins.. Increased taxes if she wins.

So right, our astute political freedom fighters are basically greedy – wanting to cling to their ill-gotten gains.

Well, that’s an epic fail of gargantuan proportions.

First, I am certainly not in fear of powerful women in charge; I have always encouraged women to take command of their environment.

Secondly, why do you call “keeping the fruits of your labors” to be “ill-gotten gains”? And in the instant case, if you are including me in your perception of greedy producers who add to the gross national product, for your information I am retired on less than $15K a year. When you’ve been fighting illegal government in the courts and in the media as long as I have you can’t afford to put anything away for retirement: Government will confiscate it. I don’t think I’m being “greedy” to object to having to pay taxes on MY money that was illegally robbed from me by a socialist government program and is slowly doled back to me monthly in the Ponzi scheme known as “social Security.” And I don’t think I’m being greedy when I object to Keynesian economics designed, according to John Maynard Keynes’ own words “to siphon off the wealth of a nation in a manner not one man in a million can detect.”

It’s bad enough to have a rogue occupation government; to have one that is itself but mere puppets of an international banking cartel is adding insult to injury.

I should note that if we do go with Mr. Cline’s method of security, a group of troublemakers could simply spread rumors that firefighters, policemen, air traffic controllers, surgeons, and baristas are all Commie Mutant Traitors (TM), and let paranoia do the rest of the work.

Like the Democrats, you don’t think much of the average American’s powers of discernment, do you? On second thought, it appears to me we already have that level of bovine excrement in a communist-inspired movement called “Black Lives Matter.” And almost none of the Americans I associate with give their B.E. the time of day.

@Denice:

I think the reason why the quacks and the woo crowd like Donald Trump so much is that they recognize him as one of their own, just as much a believer in ridiculous conspiracy theories as they are.

What “ridiculous conspiracy theories” are those? And when you list them, please recite chapter and verse why you believe each “conspiracy theory” is “ridiculous.” Facts, now, not knee-jerk “conventional wisdom,” which has never been conventional and has never been wisdom.

OK, Here’s one (of many): Donald Trump believes that vaccines cause autism and there’s a cover-up by pharma and government to hide that “fact.” That Trump believes this pseudoscientific conspiracy theory is beyond a doubt. If you don’t believe me, I can easily provide many quotes by The Donald himself posted on Twitter and quoted in news stories dating back at least to 2007 in which he says just that. Given how often Trump changes his position on so many other matters, I sometimes joke that the belief that vaccines cause autism is perhaps the only position that Trump isn’t taken both sides of at one time or another.

I haven’t heard him say that, so perhaps he has been informed that the study claiming that has been thoroughly debunked in peer review and has been withdrawn by its author.

I agree with P. J. O’Rourke:

“I am endorsing Hillary, and all her lies and all her empty promises. It’s the second-worst thing that can happen to this country, but she’s way behind in second place. She’s wrong about absolutely everything, but she’s wrong within normal parameters.

He also wrote:

Better the devil you know than the Lord of the Flies on his own 757. Flying to and fro in the earth, with gold-plated seatbelt buckles, talking nativist, isolationist, mercantilist, bigoted, rude, and vulgar crap.

Another commentator addicted to the Kool-Aid. (And his “normal parameters” are so far out in left field you can’t see him for the haze.)

And if a few minutes of edited video are proof of Parkinson’s, can we agree that the various times that The Donald has forgotten his positions and come up with new ones indicates his dementia?

And not the good Dr. Demento kind.

This is not a game and I am not here to get my jollies off [sic]. I’m here to advocate the restoration of the principles our nation was founded to preserve and protect.

Yes, random threadjacking will most assuredly save the nation. You’re here for attention, pure and simple.

the woo crowd like Donald Trump

Well I loathe him. Much to my chagrin, Infowars has become the Trump channel these past many months — It is, after all, a driving force.

I don’t like his wall talk; I don’t like his ‘law and order’ police get tough talk. Prison populations exploded under and after the Clintons {omnibus crime bill} — mostly pot smokers. I don’t like Gary Johnson either. There simply is no palatible choice this cycle; It’s all the same guff.

I will predict a rapid move to forced microchipping of the population under Clinton as that was the buzz following from her health care suggestions back in the ’90s. — Hell, they’ll probably call it Hillary Chip just to rub it in…. that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. — Revelation 13:17

Fair statement. Here is another, and it is not opinion; it is fact: Vote for Trump or you will get Hillary and probably her micro-chip plan, among others. Simple fact: Vote for anyone else or don’t vote at all, and you get Hillarybeast.

Gilbert would get along great with the conspiracy theory guy from the psych ward, right down to the Biblical quotes.

( see Natural News/ hear prn.fm)

I’m tempted, but I don’t know that it would be good for my mental health.

Oh, deer. Reading Mr. Cline is like listening to my almost 90 year old dad. It is bad enough my dad has Fox News blaring during every waking moment, I am just very glad he does not have a computer, nor desire to go on the internet.

Everything my dad does not like is “commie this” or “commie that.” I cut him off short one time when I told hm that is was an economic model. It was exactly the same economic model we lived when we lived on base when he was an Army officer. You have your assigned housing, you shop in the PX/commissary and get to where certain clothing.

How did that cut him off? Your analogy is exactly correct. The difference is, under a commie government you don’t have any choice about it. And Socialism is nothing but communism where the Kommissars haven’t yet drawn their weapons. (In our case it’s because they haven’t yet conned us into giving up ours.)

Jeff Bezos only bought the Post nine days ago; that’s hardly enough time for the Post’s evil reputation to wear off.

Correction: Jeff Bezos bought the Post in 2013, and he is a Clinton Foundation donor. So much for “tilts libertarian.”

So much for “tilts libertarian:” Correction: Bezos bought the Post in 2013, and he is a Clinton Foundation donor.

^grain alcohol and water!!1!1!!, although I guess “grain water” is my new euphemism for beer.

^ Which I shouldn’t drink, but am no longer legally prohibited from drinking, so there, expired LRA.

Mr. Cline: “Jeff Bezos only bought the Post nine days ago; that’s hardly enough time for the Post’s evil reputation to wear off.”

Bah ha ha ha… Let’s dance the time warp again! You obviously don’t know that the blue letters are links. It is an article.

Here is a little song for you, since you are full of joy and laughter:

Trollin’ Trollin’ Trollin’
Trollin’ Trollin’ Trollin’
Trollin’ Trollin’ Trollin’
Trollin’ Trollin’ Trollin’
Rawhide!
Trollin’ Trollin’ Trollin’
Though the threads are swollen
Keep them comments trollin’,
Rawhide!

Move ’em on
(Head em’ up!)
Head em’ up
(Move ’em on!)
Move ’em on
(Head em’ up!)
Rawhide!
Cut ’em out
(Paste ’em in!)
Paste’em in
(Cut em’ out!)
Cut ’em out
Paste ’em in,
Rawhide!
Keep trollin’, trollin’, trollin’
Though they’re disaprovin’
Keep them comments trollin”,
Rawhide
Don’t try to understand ’em
Just rope, laugh, and ignore ’em
Soon we’ll be discussin’ bright without ’em

You obviously don’t know that the blue letters are links.

Oh, I think he does at least know what blue letters are; green ink, I’m not so sure.

I do wonder if he thinks my lifetime ban on firearm ownership due to SMI is legitimate or not, or if he thinks crazies like me should be allowed to own guns.

(I really shouldn’t start something like this.)

Let’s discuss it. I don’t know what “SMI” is, but as a general philosophy, if you are not a proven threat to society, you have the right to keep and bear arms. And if you are a proven threat to society and a firearm is your weapon of choice, you are going to get one anyway, so what’s the point of a ban? In the latter case, the way to deal with the offender is to lock him up, not deprive everyone of their 2nd, 4th, 5th, 9th, and 10th Amendment rights in the forlorn hope of keeping a thug from getting a gun.

Ah! So, you *are* aware of the tenth amendment to the United States Constitution.
One that undermines the notion that the states are sovereign by its very wording. What sovereignty that remains is because of that amendment.
Howinhell a person gives up that right because convicted felons are denied access to a firearm is a lot beyond me, not to mention the other oddly listed amendments.
Or are you advocating for ignoring the Constitutional prohibition of indefinite detainment without charge or ignoring sentencing limitations, again, to hell with what the Constitution says?

Of course I am aware of the Tenth Amendment of the United States Constitution. I just wish government was, and would honor it. It is our fault, the people, for not requiring it.
It certainly does not undermine the notion that the States are sovereign by its very wording; The States wrote it and demanded it (and the other ten Amendments in the Bill of Rights, which was originally all one amendment) before they would agree to ratify the Constitution.
Here is an example of duplicitous governance, Wzrd1: The States demand the Bill of Rights, but right from the beginning the theory of government was that the Constitution only restricted the federal government; it did not restrict the State governments. In other words, the States were terrified that the federal government would become too powerful (and it certainly has!) yet they wanted to be total dictatorships themselves. This theory of government lasted right up until the 14th Amendment.
The problem is, the theory was bogus right from the git-go, and here is why: The theory was based on James Madison’s claim, written before the Bill of Rights, and before the Constitution was even ratified, in an effort to get it ratified, that “The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite.” (James Madison, Federalist No. 45.)

This was a marketing effort to get the Constitution ratified. But Madison ALSO wrote, in the Constitution itself, the following (in pertinent part): “This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; … shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.” (Article VI Clause 2.) Thus the Constitution as amended has ALWAYS applied to the States as much as the feds, and the States ratified it with that wording.
Rights cannot be taken without due process of law (Amendment V), but unfortunately it has been assumed that rights may be taken WITH due process of law, and permanently, too, which I consider to be wrong. A person convicted of a criminal law should have his rights restored upon satisfactory completion of his sentence, and if his crime was so violent as to indicate an ongoing danger to society, then the solution is to keep him locked up, not let him out where he can ignore the weapon prohibition and wreak havoc.
You mention “indefinite detainment without charge,” which is clearly not a felony conviction, and is illegal under the Fifth. I can’t give you legal advice on how to proceed, but I strongly recommend a lawyer. OTOH, it sounded earlier like this was a previous circumstance, so if it was a felony, have you investigated getting your rights restored? Don’t answer, none of this is anyone’s business but yours; I’m just bringing it up for your consideration. Depending on circumstances, felons have on occasion gotten their rights back.

Anybody else remember a right wing doctor making a totally wrong diagnosis from video? If not let me remind you of Tennessee’s former US Senator Bill Frist. He is a very well qualified doctor. He graduated from Princeton and then Harvard Medical School. He is a cardiothoracic surgeon. He has trained and practiced at some of the best hospitals in the world (Massachusetts General, Southampton General (England), Stanford University and Vanderbilt). Anybody questioning his ability as a cardiothoracic surgeon would be crazy.

That still did not qualify him to make a diagnosis that should have been made by a neurologist that actually saw the patient. He blew the Terri Schiavo diagnosis big time. He let his political and religious beliefs get in the way of his intelligence and common sense. He disagreed with Terri Schiavo’s doctors after studying video of her. As expected by any clearly thinking person, he was proved wrong by her autopsy results. Medical ethicist at the time criticized him for making the diagnosis because he was not a neurologist and he had not examined the patient. Doctor Ted Noel should suffer the same criticizems for doing the same thing.

JP: “(I really shouldn’t start something like this.)”

No. Because it leads to what public services should allow those that are autistic, like my oldest, and those who have other disabilities (physical, mental, etc) to function in society.

If the fool wants to it make a matter of “choice”, well newsflash: if we had to choose we would not choose the very real issues that impact our lives. The request is not special treatment, but accommodations to function and resources that actually help.

By the way, I have no intention of any direct interaction with him. He is a troll.

Too late. By calling me a “troll,’ you are interacting with me, or trying to. But aside from that, my sympathies to you and your oldest for the autism. My grandson is on that spectrum as well, so I sympathize.

By the way, I have no intention of any direct interaction with him. He is a troll.

You’re right, I shouldn’t. But the house is clean, there are no oats to make a peach crisp (perks of letting your “adult” daughter stay with you), and the cat is asleep in a box.

BTW, you were right about Apple Health. It beats any insurance I’ve ever had, including the Cadillac coverage at U of M.

Anyone who hates communism so that he goes on at excessive length, even about things utterly unrelated to communism, yet wants a New Berlin Wall at the US Southern border, well, I refer to that as being reality challenged.
Add in engineering and logistical barriers to building such a thing sufficient to cost more than a World War to overcome, fiscal responsibility is also a foreign term.

So how would you keep out illegal aliens? Or do you think we should have open borders, where ISIS is free to walk in unannounced?

JP: “BTW, you were right about Apple Health. It beats any insurance I’ve ever had, including the Cadillac coverage at U of M.”

🙂

Happiness is a good safety net.

Hmmm, reading the Cline Clatter reminds me that I need to write my dad. He does not do email (yay!), so in order to communicate to him I must write a snail mail.

I have some lovely stationary, so it is not a chore. I can’t wait to tell him about our urban deer.

Gilly: Funny, you and Trump are developmentally the same age- you still think girls have cooties. Why not just join his campaign already? You can use the local office for smoking your brain-killing weed, since no one’s there to notice.

Don-don: The 1964 John Birch Society called- they want their book and their platform back. You should really check your sources; I suspect the 1900 book is in the same genre as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion– another fake history book for dimbulbs. I bet you hate flouride too.

You’re hilarious. FYI, since you clearly are educationally-challenged in such matters, at every turn of the century since the invention of the printing press, a book is published (usually by a society formed to celebrate the turn of the century) describing the events, disasters, accomplishments, social and technological advancements, etc., of the previous one hundred years. The John Birch Society has nothing to do with it and nothing to do with me, though I am acquainted with a few of their members. And I use Stannous Fluoride daily. (Might I suggest you learn something before you try the know-it-all gig?)

Well thank goodness Our Little Donald included a quack Miranda warning (TP version*) on his website. Otherwise we might be misled into taking any of his delusions seriously.
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Trivia question: What does an Arizona TP member yell at the neighborhood kids?
A. “Get off my lawn!”
B. “Get off my astroturf!”
C. “Get off my xeriscape!”
.
* Can stand for either toilet paper or Tea Party. Makes little difference in this context.

Readers may take the above insulting message as a textbook example of the Cultural Marxism method of curtailing dissent. It has worked for many years because most decent people don’t care for political conflict, and tend to leave forums where this technique is used, leaving the political apparatchik as the last person standing forth and thus unopposed. However, in later years, having learned who designed this insidious and vicious technique of insurgency and why, people have learned how to deal with it: We deal with it as free men and women refusing to knuckle under to a bunch of thugs by calling them out for it and standing toe-to-toe with them slugging it out on any forum in which it is employed. Sorry, Opus (check that; I’m not sorry) but your game is exposed.

This is not a game and I am not here to get my jollies off [sic]. I’m here to advocate the restoration of the principles our nation was founded to preserve and protect.

Yes, random threadjacking will most assuredly save the nation. You’re here for attention, pure and simple.

Here for the attention to the issues, for sure.

“The issues”? Do you more mean trotting out the ingenious line “the Bitch of Benghazi” or the Bastiat–Birch spit-up? No, you’re an attention whore. Not only that, it comes with a prima donna shake-shake-shake the yardstick up your ass routine so that people who never solicited your presence in the first place have to address you properly in order for you to Correct Their Misunderstanding of The Law.

Your rhetorical “high point” seems to be neither more nor less prose so gassy that it could be worked into that metaphor.

It’s quite comical. I mean, not only are you apparently the Maurine Meleck of the Payson Roundup, you cherish your righteous little epistles so much that you get asshurt when they’re not run.*

Then there’s the failure to so much as figure out where you are, so long as the Bell of Onan is tolling, or something:

I just knew an allusion to Alinsky had to appear, sooner or later (there is an offshoot of the Woo Order that loves to complain about “Alinsky tactics” whenever it is getting its rhetorical butt kicked). . . .

[ . . . ]
And btw, calling people who oppose political tyranny the “Woo Order” and other pejorative names does not limit the political tyranny they oppose; rather, it facilitates it. Using that technique marks you as a supporter of political tyranny.

Well played, Mr “Words Have Meanings.”

You’re also weaselly:

If you cannot, or are unwilling, to take that [anticommunist] oath, or your adult immigrant co-workers cannot or are unwilling to, none of you should be here.

I’ll join you in ignoring any mention of it being a joke about the oath. These are serious issues nobody should be allowed to jest about.

Guilt by association? How’s that for individual’s inalienable rights…

“Guilt by association?” Nothing I said advocates guilt by association. [Hi, I’m a fantast. Allow me to change the subject.] If they are foreign citizens on U.S. soil, they are subject to U.S. law regardless of their personal creed. If they cannot submit to our law then they shouldn’t be here. If a citizen of our country cannot submit to our law then they should be legally sanctioned. OTOH, if either is willing to submit to our law then an oath to do so should not be impossible for them.

What the fυcking hell? Now it’s “our law,” lowercase? That’s what you’re whinging about in the first place. Did your shift key break? What is this law that is full of oathy goodness?

You’re a low-rent operation even compared with the dental student babbling about praxeology, Cline. Oh, and if you reply, do it using the regular interface, not the broken nested-reply one, because I’m not you. Otherwise, don’t hold your breath. Or do, I don’t care.

* This one is fantastically ironic, BTW. Compare with this bit of spasmodic knee jerking:

As for Mr. Cline’s flooding the thread with numerous annoying comments, if it persists I might have to put him on the slow moderate filter. . . .

Your call. I wouldn’t be surprised; that’s what the Marxist mafia’s ‘useful idiots’ always do when they can’t debate the issues or face the discomfort of finding out they and their parents, grandparents, great grandparents — however many back to at least Abraham Lincoln — have been lied to since birth. It is the Marxist/Fascist/totalitarian way: If your thesis is challenged, shut off the challenger. And when they win, the challengers are not merely shut off; they are always locked up and most catch a bullet in the back of the head and a mass grave. Before you filter me out, do a little research and find out how many genocides have occurred in the world in the last one hundred years because the ideologies I’m fighting won, and how many innocent people have been murdered.

Yes, having one’s comments on somebody else’s site being set to “no instant gratification” is like being shot in the back of the head. Jesus Christ.

Anyway, I find it amusing that Meyer Weinberg has a “KeyWiki” entry. The whole skeleton Komsomol routine is priceless.

My, my! How you do go on! 🙂 Okay, you’ve vented your terrible head of steam over the challenge to your worldview. Do you feel better now?

Reading my last message to Opus may be instructive to you, since you seem to have a desperate desire for attention yourself. But the difference is, you haven’t said one thing that would advance or improve our liberties, our human condition, our protection from tyranny, our understanding of political intrigue or of political history. The only thing you know how to do is erupt in faux outrage at someone who is calling attention to those issues. And your faux outrage is so excessive you can’t even put thoughts together that make sense or apply to any of the issues discussed or debated to date.

“shake-shake-shake the yardstick up your ass…” What the hell do you think that means? Sounds like some sophomoric high school drop out trying to be a rap artist.

The incredibly smarmy and intellectually deficient article that headed off this forum “solicited my presence in the first place”. It is so typical of the misinformation propaganda crap that is currently infesting social media and the mainstream media these days and it is for the specific purpose of pulling the wool over the eyes of the American people so they don’t know what to believe any more and won’t stand up for their liberties or their principles. I am here to combat that crap, Narad, and your explosive juvenile outburst proves I am doing some good.

You don’t like it when you find out you are no longer in a crowd exclusively made up of gigglefarts who laugh and nod their heads at every clever turn of phrase, do you? But I have to thank you for the link you label “get asshurt.” In it I say nothing about getting “asshurt” by not being published, but I do address the same kind of principles I am addressing here. (BTW, it turned out that they weren’t being run because they weren’t being received: Something was wrong with the Roundup’s email system. Once I started hand-carrying letters in, every letter I wrote was published.)

I don’t want to challenge your writing ability as you challenge mine, Narad, but what exactly does “‘neither more nor less prose so gassy it could be worked into that metaphor.”? Especially since you didn’t present a metaphor?

Then you call me “weaselly” and quote something I said that was a straightforward statement of principle. You compliment me on my ‘words have meanings’ assertion and then indicate you don’t know what meaning words have.

All right, cutting this down to the chase, you ask one question that is in itself straight forward, though I would expect the answer to be obvious by now: What is this law that is full of oathy goodness?”

The United States Constitution, Narad. Ever heard of it? It is the document that represents the compact between our nation-States that created the federal government out of nothing. It prohibits in so many words practically everything ZeroBama has done and everything Hillary wants to do, and maybe about ten percent of what Trump wants to do. It prohibited a lot of what both Bushes did. It prohibited practically everything Bill Clinton did when he infested our White House. It is the document that conveys to the federal government the ONLY powers the federal government has, and the aforementioned presidents have trashed it and exercised illegal powers far beyond what are authorized.

And every president has, all the way back to the adam henry who started the trend, Abraham Lincoln. The trend, however, ever since has been to expand and refine and entrench the lawlessness and give it the illusion of legitimacy.

I will continue to reply as I have been replying, by clicking on the Reply button in the email notification.

“No instant gratification” is irrelevant, Narad. It would bother you far more than I. I’m here to raise issues of tyranny, not to brag about my exploits and not to freak out when someone challenges my worldview as you have done in this greatly garbled message.

Your last line, like several others, seems totally meaningless. What the heck does Meyer Weinberg having a “KeyWiki” entry have to do with anything? And what does “Komsomol routine” have to do with anything discussed here?

Don’t bother to reply unless you feel greatly motivated, but if you do, try to get off of whatever you are taking that seems to render many of your comments nonsensical. Or don’t. I believe in free will.

BTW, you were right about Apple Health. It beats any insurance I’ve ever had, including the Cadillac coverage at U of M.

I, for one, am not surprised.

Anarcho-syndicalists do not recognize any authority higher than their syndicate, and the society they create is remarkably similar to Somalian warlords.

You don’t say. Which simile-enabling instantiations would those be?

Snopes has long been recognized as Clinton supporters and their “debunking” of any story casting a negative light on the Clintons has been well known for years. (That being said, the second link you provide is a litany of jokes and other nonsense that is widely understood to be such.)

Also, I have never heard of anyone claiming Bill Clinton is responsible for the deaths that have been occurring among his acquaintances since he was Arkansas Governor and allegedly organizing drug shipments by air into the Mena, AR airport at which two teenaged witnesses were murdered. Bill Clinton’s’ direct involvement is the thrust of Snopes’ debunking effort. The claim has always been the murders were conducted by the Dixie Mafia to support him, and later became international (in the Ron Brown case, in which the ILS beacon for the landing aircraft was moved, causing the crash, and a nurse who survived the crash walked under her own power to the rescue helicopter and conveniently died on the way to the hospital.)

If you want to see a much more rational examination of the deaths of those associates of the Clinton regime, see https://www.truthorfiction.com/clintonfriends/, where the deaths are labeled both Truth! and Fiction! with a caveat you can read for yourself.

BTW, the “list” referenced by TorF is attributed to “Linda Thompson” of the “American Justice Federation.” I have had dealings with Ms Thompson in the past, and she announced that I must be a “government agent” because I found some of her announcements about “concentration camps” to be bogus. However, I had the list of deaths, extensively footnoted with documentation, before she had it. It also documented the FBI’s investigation into the Clinton’s membership in the “— Policy Institute,” which the FBI described as a known terrorist front group sending explosive toys to the Sandinista dustup in Nicaragua to be dropped from helicopters so kids would pick them up and have their hands blown off — that was Hillary’s gig as chairperson of another bogus charity group like the Clinton Foundation. During Bill Clinton’s first term, every member of his cabinet was also a former member of that Policy institute, and like Clinton, they resigned when they joined his cabinet. He changed his cabinet during his second term because of the rising furor over it. These are not nice people, folks.

I haven’t heard him say that, so perhaps he has been informed that the study claiming that has been thoroughly debunked in peer review and has been withdrawn by its author.

Uh, no. OK, you forced me to do this.

I’ve documented Trump’s antivaccine ramblings several times over the last decade, going back to at lesst 2007. The guy is a certifiable antivaccine wingnut, complete with the “I’m not antivaccine claim” followed by spewing antivaccine pseudoscience. Here are just three examples of my noting this:

http://respectfulinsolence.com/2015/09/15/the-long-sordid-antivaccine-history-of-donald-trump/

http://respectfulinsolence.com/2012/04/03/donald-trump-versus-vaccination/

http://respectfulinsolence.com/2016/05/03/the-republican-party-is-on-the-verge-of-nominating-an-antivaccine-loon-named-donald-trump/

And Donald Trump has been informed about the science. Many times. He simply refuses to believe it.

Okay. I didn’t “force you” to do anything, but I accept the possibility that he believes that. A lot of people do, right or wrong, and it appears a resurgence of childhood diseases is occurring because of it. Too bad. It doesn’t disqualify him, and he probably won’t have time to investigate it once he is president.

Donnie said: “Readers may take the above insulting message as a textbook example of the Cultural Marxism method of curtailing dissent.”
.
Note how carefully he avoided the point of the post: the disclaimer on his website. Instead, using the techniques taught by Saul Alinsky he has thrown up a smokescreen to disguise his inability to address the issue at hand.
.
Since he apparently has developed Hillarybitch Clintonwhore Memory Failure Syndrome (HBCWMFS) it is reproduced below.
.
“DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer . . . Nothing on this site should be considered legal advice.

Personally, I always wonder what the hell “cultural Marxism” is supposed to mean. Marxism was an economic and political ideology. From my experience, when a right-winger starts ranting about “cultural Marxism,” it usually just means “things I don’t like or agree with.”

Do a Google search on “Cultural Marxism.” You will learn a great deal. In the future it will help your understanding of the word if you don’t automatically turn off your brain every time you hear someone you perceive to be a “conservative” make a statement. As an example, you might find it surprising to know I am not a “conservative.” I am a Constitutionalist. You might also be surprised to learn the founders of our nation were not “conservatives.” They were “liberals;” what we today call “classical liberals.” The communists in Soviet Russia, what the political ideologists call the “Old guard,” were the “conservatives” during the breakup of the Soviet Union, and the rebels were the “liberals.” It’s an oversimplification, but generally the conservatives want to keep what they consider the tried and true methods of governance, and the “liberals” want to change it.

Put simply, our “classical liberal” founding fathers believed in individual liberty and the conservatives of the time believed in the “Divine right of Kings to Govern” regardless of ability, integrity, respect for human rights, or whatever. We kicked the bastards all the way back to their City of London lair and replaced their bogus “Divine Right” with the Consent of the Governed. Once that was established for about a hundred years or so, the new “liberals” decided we would be better of under the authority of their arbitrary whim again. Ain’t gonna happen. I’m trying to give you reasons to make damned sure it ain’t gonna happen.

Oh, brother! Anything to cast aspersions. Okay, I’ll address it. My website says, clearly, “DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer (though I have played one in court against a U.S. Department of (in)Justice attorney and won). Nothing on this site should be considered legal advice. Take no action and/or omit no action based on what you find here. If you want or need legal advice, consult your own lawdog or legal beagle. Don’t believe anything the lawdog says, but get what your legal beagle says in writing. Then you have grounds to act on it even if he’s making it up as he goes along.”

There has been numerous cases of government thugs suing or even arresting people who address illegal government actions in public, for “giving legal advice.”

I’m sure you would be happy, Opus, if I was holding myself out as a lawyer so some government goon could shut me up, but I don’t allow that.

Funny, that very thing (sans losing a shoe) happened to me at work last night, when I went outside for a smoke.

At her age, she’d likely have discs starting to fail, just as I have one that has apparently failed.
It’s a pity that those discs didn’t study for the test of gravity.
Or something.

This should be VERY simple, considering the “its” history of pathological lying, int’l grifting and attempt to RE-occupy the Dark House at 1600 Transylvania Av with “the rapist” in tow.
All “candidates” FULLY DISCLOSE I-M-M-E-D-I-A-T-E-L-Y OR BE G-O-N-E!

I don’t know what “SMI” is, but as a general philosophy, if you are not a proven threat to society, you have the right to keep and bear arms.

Severe mental illness. I’m not a proven danger to society, but I’m a proven danger to myself. (I personally think the legal standard for involuntary commitment should only be danger to others, not danger to self, but whatever.)

I was just wondering how absolute you were in your opposition to background checks, and it seems like you’re about where I thought.

I do find it pretty bizarre that you apparently would rather have people locked up for life or something rather than disallow felons for having guns; I mean, what with being a “freedom fighter” and all. I personally have a hard time feeling good about people having to go to prison at all; it’s a shame, to be honest, and it seems like there must be a better way to go about things.

Oh, if that’s what you wondered, you should have asked that question. I am adamantly opposed to background checks as a precondition to “permitting” the exercise of a right government has no authority to permit or deny.
First, background checks have never in the history of the Brady Act that required them prevented a crime. Not even once. Anyone intending to commit a crime will find a way to do it, and if they need a gun to do it they will find a way to get one. (It has been shown that criminals rarely buy guns; they use one circulating among their criminal friends.)
Additionally, in the case of firearms, background checks are a violation of the 2nd Amendment (because we do not need government permission to exercise a right the peaceful exercise of which infringes on no one else’s rights); they are a violation of our 4th Amendment right to be secure from interrogation and search or seizure in the absence of probable cause of criminal conduct; they are a violation of our 5th Amendment right to be secure from the loss of any right without due process of law (i.e., criminal prosecution); they are a violation of our 9th Amendment right to be secure from being required to give up a right in order to be allowed to exercise a right; and they are a violation of our 10th Amendment right to be secure from the federal exercise of authority not delegated.
The feds don’t even have the authority to license firearm dealers.
Be off for a while; gonna go see “Sully.”

I wonder if Donald L. Cline ignores any correspondence that comes with his name printed in ALL CAPS. He does seem to have that weird fixation on capitalization.

I haven’t seen any posts with my name all in caps. I am notified by email of any new replies, and I examine all of them to see if any are worse answering.

What is this law that is full of oathy goodness?”

The United States Constitution, Narad. Ever heard of it? It is the document that represents the compact between our nation-States that created the federal government out of nothing. It prohibits in so many words practically everything ZeroBama has done and everything Hillary wants to do, and maybe about ten percent of what Trump wants to do. It prohibited a lot of what both Bushes did. It prohibited practically everything Bill Clinton did when he infested our White House.

But it doesn’t prohibit kicking out citizens and/or immigrants who would or could not swear the ‘McCarthy oath’?

I think that was at least partly what Narad was talking about – that’s my reading of it anyway. There was more, probably (it being Narad) but that was also my main point in my last comment you didn’t directly answer. So I’ll elaborate a little here.

To remind everyone…

JustaTech: “I once made a joke at work about us having to take a loyalty oath before being allowed to use a piece of equipment. You know, the one that starts “I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the Communist party.
Except that most of my co-workers were adult immigrants from China and Ukraine.
Oops.”

Donald L. Cline: “If you cannot, or are unwilling, to take that oath, or your adult immigrant co-workers cannot or are unwilling to, none of you should be here. ”

How does that stance coincide with your emphasis on personal liberties? And what Constitutional basis there is for enforcing the eviction of oath-refusers, US-born or legally immigrated?

In spite of your smarmy pejorative “McCarthy oath”, a nation that cannot control its borders or what non-citizens are allowed to remain is not a sovereign nation. And a refusal to swear or affirm an oath of submission to U.S. (and the appropriate State) law is certainly grounds to eject the alien with prejudice against re-entry. And it is not the only grounds; addiction to drugs, a history of alcoholism, an inability to show a marketable self-supporting skill, etc., are also reasons to refuse entry to an alien or to deport one already here. And if all other criteria is met, illegal entry into our country is grounds for criminal prosecution and deportation with prejudice. We must control our borders or we are not a sovereign nation.

The single, absolutely only, exclusive purpose of government is to protect the rights of its citizens. An alien is a citizen of a foreign country, and his nation has first claim on protecting his rights. While here he is subject to our laws, but without an oath in support of our laws any action we take under our laws could result in an international incident. This is why we have immigration laws and tourist visas and temporary work visas and etc. — to establish that we have superior lawful authority over the individual while he is here, both for his protection and ours.

The oath required of JustaTech and his co-workers is not an oath of fealty to the U.S. but is recognition of the fact that the Communist Party is inimical to our interests, just as is ISIS, and, strictly speaking, Islam. If an individual belongs to an organization of any kind promulgating a belief in the murder or enslavement of non-believers, then that individual by the strict application of law should not be allowed to be here. Now, the fact that thousands of Muslims have been allowed to remain here is a testament to the fact that we are very reasonable when it comes to that strict application of the law as long as they are taking no overt or covert actions to execute those beliefs. But we do have the sovereign authority to kick their asses all the way back to whatever sandpit they immigrated from if it suits us.

The thing you folks need to understand is that we are a free country because our citizens, most of them, VOLUNTARILY obey the law and obey the social protocols that protect everyone’s liberty. When people stop obeying the law voluntarily, liberty goes out the window and that hurts everyone.

I will continue to reply as I have been replying, by clicking on the Reply button in the email notification.

In that case, don’t expect them to be read by people who can tell the difference between a blog and what passes for E-mail these days.

From my experience, when a right-winger starts ranting about “cultural Marxism,” it usually just means “things I don’t like or agree with.”

It started out as a paranoid reaction to the Frankfurt School (one thing I don’t miss about grad school is having to read Lukacs) but yeah, that’s basically it.

Breaking: Hillary Clinton as decided to take a break from breathing today. Aids said that it will not affect her presidential run –#weekendatHillary’s

Trollin’ Trollin’ Trollin’
Trollin’ Trollin’ Trollin’
Trollin’ Trollin’ Trollin’
Trollin’ Trollin’ Trollin’
Rawhide!
Trollin’ Trollin’ Trollin’
Though the threads are swollen
Keep them comments trollin’,
Rawhide!

There was more, probably (it being Narad)

Hey! Anyway, I find it mildly amusing that D. Cline was whining about prose stylings (it wasn’t fυcking Kojève, Dee) and then turned around and coughed up an “answer” with a hard upper limit on signal-to-noise ratio of 2.6%. The only surprise is that it didn’t contain more semicolons, which I suspect he thinks are very erudite, indeed.

Point of order, Narad: I wasn’t “whining about prose stylings” — I was responding to your whines about prose stylings.

Donnie said: ” I’m sure you would be happy, Opus, if I was holding myself out as a lawyer so some government goon could shut me up, but I don’t allow that.”

Not to worry, Donnie!! The odds of anyone who passed Political Science 101 (or the equivalent) mistaking you for an attorney are in the same range as the odds of you being elected President this November. Feel free to continue to misinterpret law and precedent without fear of the black helicopters coming for you.

I intend to continue supporting the United States Constitution as it was written, Opus. Unless you have a personal agenda to the contrary, if you do the research you will come to the same conclusions — but you have to reject Supreme Court rulings not authorized by the Constitution. In other words, you must have more integrity and precision than they have had.

There was more, probably (it being Narad)

Hey!

You’re right. Shouldn’t have said probably.

Meant with respect. I’m the first to admit it usually takes me a while to parse the nuances of your comments (Those I manage to pick up, at least).

Opus: “The odds of anyone who passed Political Science 101 (or the equivalent) mistaking you for an attorney are in the same range as the odds of you being elected President this November.”

Cline’s “facts” are similar the Idiots in Oregon who Occupied a bird sanctuary with their pocket constitutions (their trial starts on Tuesday, it should be very entertaining). He is similar to my dad, also an 80+ living in Arizona, who is so extremely happy that his Tri-Care health insurance (military veteran) was pretty much free of charge, but ObamaCare is bad. Yeah, I love my dad, even if Fox News now has him living on Bizarro Land (aka Htrae).