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This could be the most ludicrous version of the “toxins” gambit I’ve ever seen

One of the oldest antivaccine tropes that first encountered is one that I like to call the “toxins gambit.” Basically, this is an antivaccine lie that portrays vaccines as being laden with all manner of “toxins” because they have—gasp!—chemicals with scary sounding names and even some chemicals that are toxic. The lie derives from the the famous adage that the “dose makes the poison.” For instance, it’s well known that there are traces of formaldehyde in some vaccines left over from the production process. Sounds scary, right? Certainly our old buddy the antivaccine-sympathetic pediatrician Dr. Jay Gordon thought so seven years ago.

Unfortunately, since then the toxins gambit has truly been the antivaccine lie that won’t die, a veritable Whac-A-Mole of misinformation such that, as soon as skeptics and pro-science vaccine advocates whack down one “toxins”-related lie about vaccines, another one pops up to take its place who knows where. Not surprisingly, Jenny McCarthy is also a fan.

It’s actually been a while since I’ve come across the toxins gambit in its purest form, so much so that I had started to think that maybe—just maybe—antivaccine activists had finally figured out just how utterly scientifically ignorant and intellectually bankrupt that gambit is. Of course, even at the time, I suspected that I was engaging in a bit of wishful thinking not unlike that of sane Americans who thought that somehow enough electors in the Electoral College would refuse to vote for Donald Trump and deny him the Presidency. I now know that it was, given that I found what has to be one of the purest, most idiotic distillations of the toxins gambit published on the website of that alt right rising star and all purpose wingnut Mike Adams. It wasn’t written by Mike Adams, but one of his minions, S.D. Wells (who, I’ve long suspected, is a pseudonym for Adams himself given that I’ve never been able to find anything out about him). Oh, wait. I guess not. He doesn’t sound like Adams. In actuality, his real name is Sean David Cohen.

Wells does, of course, belong on NaturalNews.com, given how he produces posts like The 7 most dangerous vaccines injected into humans and exactly why they cause more harm than good. If we’ve encountered the toxins gambit on steroids before, Wells provides us with the toxins gambit on steroids, methamphetamine, and PCP. To give you an idea of the black hole-density stupid being laid down by Wells, just check out this paragraph:

Yet, what if you found out today that the worst odds you or your children have of being infected with disease, disorder, and deformity exist in getting injected repeatedly with neurotoxins, genetically modified bacteria, live experimental strains of multiple viruses and pesticides? Consider this: not one single vaccine ever produced that is recommended by the CDC today has ever been proven safe or effective. Why? They dont have to prove it. All they have to do is scare the living hell out of everyone using propaganda, and its worked for 75 years.

It’s as though Wells lives in an alternate reality where all the science, clinical trials, and epidemiological studies showing that vaccines are indeed safe and effective was never done. Or perhaps we live in George Orwell’s fictional world of Oceania in which, as alliances shift between the three superpowers of the era, inconvenient newspapers, magazines, photographs, and transcripts are disposed of in favor of new versions revised to be congruent with what the powers that be want. Only in this case, it’s the memory holing of science by antivaccine ideologues, who can’t bear to admit that vaccines actually work and are incredibly safe. In this case, any study that shows vaccines are safe and effective gets memory holed (metaphorically speaking). It’s as though the studies were never done.

Fortunately, the scientific literature never forgets (or at least rarely forgets), which makes howlers like this Wells’ article all the more amusing. In particular, I was amused at the utter predictability of Wells’ first choice for the most deadly vaccine. Can you guess what it is? I bet that regular readers can. Yes, it’s Gardasil:

Forget for a moment the fact that many girls who get the HPV vaccine beginning at age 9 for a sexually transmitted disease (diseases they don’t have) go into immediate anaphylactic shock and some into comas and die, and let’s just talk about the insane boatload of chemicals the manufacturers put in this concoction that belong nowhere in medicine, ever, especially that which is injected directly into muscle tissue and that which can penetrate the blood/brain barrier. Plus, remember to triple the amounts of these carcinogenic, dangerous, ludicrous chemical ingredients of Gardasil, because there are 3 of these toxic jabs required.

Um. No. There is no evidence that Gardasil is causing many girls to go into anaphylactic shock, become comatose, and then die. There are, in fact, multiple very large studies showing that Gardasil is safe. For example, there was a study of 189,000 young females who received the vaccine that concluded that the HPV vaccine was only associated with same-day syncope (that’s fainting to lay people) and skin infections in the two weeks after vaccination. The authors concluded that, “this study did not detect evidence of new safety concerns among females 9 to 26 years of age secondary to vaccination with HPV4.” They also noted regarding conditions for which an elevated odds ratio was noted that medical record review “revealed that most diagnoses were present before vaccination or diagnostic workups were initiated at the vaccine visit.” I can’t help but note here that pretty much any pediatrician or nurse who deals with adolescents knows that adolescent girls are prone to vasovagal reactions after any injection, blood draw, or needlestick. It’s why they’re made to wait after a vaccination or blood draw, to make sure they don’t faint. Then, of course, An even larger study of a million girls in Denmark published in BMJ found “no evidence supporting associations between exposure to qHPV vaccine and autoimmune, neurological, and venous thromboembolic adverse events. Although associations for three autoimmune events were initially observed, on further assessment these were weak and not temporally related to vaccine exposure. Furthermore, the findings need to be interpreted considering the multiple outcomes assessed.” In other words, same as it ever was. There are more studies like this where this came from.

But what about those evil toxins? Oh, yes, here they are:

First we have sodium borate at 35mcg. Also known as “borax,” this is the main poisonous ingredient in boric acid that’s used to kill cockroaches. Is your little girl a cockroach? Is it coincidence that the side effects listed and reported with the Gardasil vaccine match those of sodium borate poisoning? No, it’s not a coincidence. Did you know that anything imported into the European Union that contains borax must carry a warning label stating, “May damage fertility” and “May damage the unborn child.” This is what America “recommends” for preteen and teenage girls who are just reaching the age of fertility. Unbelievable!

Then, Gardasil HPV contains aluminum at 225mcg, which causes nerve cell death and helps the vaccine chemicals enter the brain. Let’s not forget that Gardasil HPV contains polysorbate 80 at 50mcg. Polysorbate 80 is used as an emulsifier in foods, but when injected into animals (such as humans), causes rapid, unnatural growth of reproductive organs, causing sterility. This is population control through vaccines, just as Bill Gates once said at a TED conference would be ideal for reducing the world’s population by a few billion. Polysorbate 80 is what causes the anaphylactic shock and also causes cancer and birth defects, while we’re on that topic. Sorry, but there’s not enough time to talk about the sodium chloride at nearly 10mcg.

Sodium chloride? 10 μg? I half think that Wells is trolling Adams’ readers. Can he really be that stupid and ignorant? We’re talking about friggin’ table salt! And 10 μg? The American Heart Association recommends no more than 2,400 mg of sodium per day, with an ideal limit of no more than 1,500 mg a day. Let’s use the lower number. 1 mg = 1,000 μg. Basically, Wells is saying that an amount of salt 150,000 times less than the AHA recommendation for maximum intake of salt in a day is harmful. Let’s look at it another way. Consider a 50 kg adult (a lightweight). Such an adult will have roughly 200 g of sodium chloride in his or her body. That’s 200,000 mg or 200,000,000. Getting the idea? That’s 20 million times more than the 10 μg Wells tried to scare his audience with, almost as an aside. No wonder Wells said “there’s not enough time to talk about the sodium chloride.” That’s basically his way of saying to his readers, “You’re too stupid to realize that this is an inconsequential amount of sodium.

The only reason I spend to much time on Wells’ offhanded remark about sodium chloride is to illustrate the depths of ignorance plumbed by the toxins gambit. It makes putting the other fear mongering into context a bit easier. In fact, if you doubt how idiotic Wells, is, get a load of this:

Sodium chloride raises blood pressure and inhibits muscle contraction and growth.

Bwahahahaha! As though 10 μg of sodium chloride could do that. OK, it might do it to a few cells immediately surrounding the intramuscular injection site, but other than that, forget it.

For instance, I’ve written about Polysorbate 80 several times before and the myth that it causes premature ovarian failure based on rodent studies that used massive quantities of the compound. then, of course, there’s the dreaded aluminum, which has become the new mercury, even though it has a long history of safety.

But what about the dreaded borate? Again, let the dose make the poison, and 35 μg is not dangerous. Basically, Wells is doing the same thing that all antivaccine ideologues do when they invoke the toxins gambit. He’s frightening people with horrible effects that require doses much, much higher than what is in a vaccine.

The hilarity continues with Wells describing the ingredients of the MMR:

Under Appendix B, listed on the CDC website, you can find the ingredients for the MMR (MMR-II), the combination vaccines that contain recombinant human albumin, sorbitol, hydrolized gelatin, chick (egg) embryo cell culture, human diploid lung fibroblasts, and fetal bovine serum, among other certain preservatives and chemical adjuvants. In the “ProQuad” version, or MMRV (w/vericella for chicken pox), they’ve added monosodium L-glutamate, neomycin, and MRC-5 cells. And although measles is a respiratory disease accompanied by an uncomfortable rash and fever illness that anyone with a normal immune system will likely survive, the media scares the public into getting jabbed with neurotoxins.

It’s as though Wells thinks that the cells used to grow the virus are left in the vaccine! That would certainly be very sloppy. He also seems to think that vaccine manufacturers just “add” MRC-5 cells for no apparent reason when in fact that’s the cell line used to grow the virus, after which the cells are discarded. As for the rest, it all sounds scary, but in the amounts present in vaccines, these substances are a whole lot of nothing.

I think I’ll finish with what is probably the most ridiculous part of Wells’ little screed. There were so many ridiculous parts that it was hard to choose, and some of you might disagree, but this is my choice and I’m sticking too it:

Human albumin is the protein portion of blood from pooled human venous plasma and when injected causes fever, chills, hives, rash, headache, nausea, breathing difficulty, and rapid heart rate. Injecting “pooled blood” can result in a loss of body cell mass and cause immunodeficiency virus infection, or contain SV40, AIDS, cancer or Hepatitis B from drug addicts. Still want that MMR vaccine? Didn’t think so.

It’s hard for me not to believe that Wells doesn’t have utter contempt for his readers to have written something this mind-numbingly silly. Either that, or Wells himself is really, really ignorant. I suppose that it could be a combination of both. Either way, we’re not talking about pooled human venous plasma or pooled blood. Did Wells forget that he himself noted that this is recombinant human albumin. It’s not from human blood or plasma. It’s made in bacteria using recombinant DNA. There’s no chance of its containing AIDS, SV40, or hepatitis B from drug addicts.

I know I haven’t said this in a long time, but, damn, the stupid, it burns. Wells’ blather is even dumber than previous iterations of the toxins gambit that I’ve seen—and more despicable.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

171 replies on “This could be the most ludicrous version of the “toxins” gambit I’ve ever seen”

“Also known as “borax,” this is the main poisonous ingredient in boric acid that’s used to kill cockroaches. Is your little girl a cockroach?”

No, and I’m not trying to kill her either.

First we have sodium borate … this is the main poisonous ingredient in boric acid

Is it even legal to be this stupid?

I’d go with himself really ignorant. I really do think many of these people are pretty sincere in their horror from vaccines. Be nice and don’t deconstruct the ingredients in organic foods for them, or – unless they really believe as a tenant that the difference between injection and ingestion is the end-all, and they might, they will starve to death.

And the real problem is that most readers want to believe this. They won’t look past the scary chemical names and scary claims.

I was curious what readers at NaturalNews.com thought about the salt silliness, and while it was brought up, I had to roll my eyes at one of the replies to that commenter:

One is shot straight into your bloodstream bypassing all your bodies natural defense mechanisms the other is run through your digestive system, big difference.

This seems to be the stock answer when it comes to anything found naturally in the body that is also in vaccines, but they want to make it scary, such as squalene or Al. But I am really curious what they think the big difference is, do they think the salt magically changes when it goes through the digestive system? What natural defences do they think that salt is bypassing? It is mind boggling.

I fear that the only way the anti-vaccine movement is going to join the rest of the world in modern times is if there is a massive and deadly epidemic in the western world. Maybe a re-run of the 1918 Influenza pandemic, or maybe a mutated polio strain. Even then, they would probably push the blame to someone else. The government, CDC, political party opposed to their beliefs, big Pharma, etc. Maybe these health-warriors should be given a free trip to one of those wonderful places with minimal or no vaccinations so they can enjoy the bliss of a life free of vaccine-fears. I’m sure the never-ending stream of dead children will eventually wake them the f*ck up. The big question is; How many dead children from vaccine preventable diseases will it take to wake up each moron. But remember the toxins in the vaccines are far deadlier then the disease. IDIOTS.

It almost seemed like Wells was going to give it all up and land in the dihydrogen monoxide bucket which is mostly what makes up vaccines, and us. Almost.

Orac’s clearly just trying to cover for things he did back in his ER days.
I’ll bet quantities of quatloos that time after time he ordered that patients be given whole litres of IV “normal” (yeah, sure, “normal” – they do it so often they think it’s normal) saline, which has NINE THOUSAND micrograms of sodium chloride PER MILLILITRE! Or maybe he ordered lactated Ringer’s. It’s only got 600 µg/mL of sodium chloride, but it’s also got 300 µg/mL of potassium chloride, and that stuff causes horrible pain when injected IV and it’ll stop a beating heart! Then there’s the calcium chloride, at 200 µg/mL – they put that on roads to melt ice. He probably even ordered plasma products that had been deliberately treated with polysorbate 80, with the claim that the treatment killed viruses in the plasma.

I have much difficulty trying to tell if people like Alex Jones and Wells really are profoundly ignorant or just lying liars who will write or say anything to keep their rubes gulled and coming back for more. I won’t mention by name the Cheetos-colored real estate salesman, though we know for certain he is both ignorant and a liar.

I need another cup of tea. I don’t drink coffee – no one has ever proven that gak is safe to drink!

This may be the first time I’ve seen a microgram dosage of sodium chloride hyped as a vaccine Toxin. The previous winner was in an Amazon book review by a self-identified nurse who warned readers that vaccines could contain dextrose. Truly nasty stuff.

I like the image accompanying this article, complete with U.N.-style logo (fits nicely into what the Health Ninny calls “the globalist war against humanity). I didn’t know that “nerve disease” came in liquid form, which sounds handy.

First we have sodium borate at 35mcg. Also known as “borax,” this is the main poisonous ingredient in boric acid that’s used to kill cockroaches.

Aside from the issues with this statement that other commenters have noted, there is the not-so-small matter that effects differ from species to species. Every few years I need to put out borax bait traps to deal with ants invading my kitchen. Borax is quite toxic to ants–the way it works is that the workers take it back and feed it to the queen, who dies as a result. There is a reason I use borax rather than other ant poisons: at least in the doses required to deal with ants, borax is not toxic to humans, whereas many other ant poisons are, so borax can be safely used in a kitchen.

Does this nincompoop ever eat chocolate? By his logic he shouldn’t, because the theobromine in chocolate is toxic to dogs. And obviously dogs are more like humans than ants or cockroaches are.

This lines up with my second favorite antivaccidiot trope: the “I want to be able to pronounce all the ingredients” line. Because vocabulary should determine the efficacy and safety of something. Virtually anything is toxic to humans in a large enough quantity, and significantly less than that is…gasp, not dangerous!

Also should someone explain to NaturalNews consumers that salt being in your digestive tract doesn’t turn the salt into anything besides salt? If it broke down NaCl to just Na and Cl, then you may actually be in trouble!

I want a giant sink full of nerve disease for Christmas, but I bet all I’ll get will be gift cards.

If it broke down NaCl to just Na and Cl, then you may actually be in trouble!

Actually, a glass of water does that quite handily.

Over the last few days, I have been trading comments with Anthony Samsel on the subject of glyphosate in vaccines. A truly delusional person who sees nothing unethical in making claims and spreading fear without the data to back it up. Of course, he says he has the data, its just not published yet.
[img]https://www.dropbox.com/s/gct2m0qds1fx0md/Samsel%2020161221.jpg?dl=0[/image]

doug @ 7

Beat me to it on the saline drip: I must be some kinda superhuman or just immune ‘cos I didn’t get killed to death by saline drips which those ebil medics had me on one time. And nor did The Strange Woman I Live With…

And with the coffee: this household will keep up its sterling work on your behalf, nobly putting ourselves at any potential risk to demonstrate that coffee is definitely safe to drink. You can thank me later.

Orac writes,

Sodium chloride?

MJD says,

Let’s ask a few questions:

1) Can 10 mcg of sodium chloride in a vaccine denature a protein therein?

2) Can 10 mcg of sodium chloride in a vaccine denature a protein-contaminant therein?

3) Can a denatured protein-contaminant in a vaccine provide increased antigenic determinants?

4) Can an antigenic determinant in a protein-contaminated vaccine cause a contraindication?

The answer to all of these questions is an unequivocal “YES”

Therefore, all efforts should be made to manufacture vaccines free of certain allergens that we have discussed in great detail. 🙁

.

Mephistopheles @14 — Well, the glass of water breaks the salt down into Na+ and Cl-, actually. I’m no chemist, but my understanding is that as neutral atoms, they’re pretty nasty.

Actually, a glass of water does that quite handily.

This is where the distinction between the ions Na+ and Cl-, as opposed to elemental Na and Cl_2, becomes important. The latter are quite dangerous. Cl_2 is highly toxic. The main problem with elemental Na is high reactivity, especially in the presence of water (no, I don’t know this from firsthand experience, but it’s likely I know someone who does).

Luckily, it is quite difficult to convert the ionic forms to the elemental forms, since they have the same electron structure as the neighboring noble gases (Ne and Ar). The opposite direction is quite easy to achieve, which is why the elemental forms are so reactive.

Lawrence asks (#17),

Why is the answer to those questions, “yes?” (see post #16)

MJD says,

Even if the answer was “maybe” vaccine safety may be unequivocally compromised.

Unscientific claims are made by BOTH sides.

Orac:
“There is no evidence that Gardasil is causing many girls to go into anaphylactic shock,…”

Go to:
https://wonder.cdc.gov/vaers.html
Select HPV4, anaphylactic reaction, anaphylactic shock, female and it return 60 cases.

Unscientific claims are made by BOTH sides.

Like with dental floss, Vinu? You’ve got to stay on that travesty.

@#16 MJD –
You tell us.

Human blood has a normal sodium concentration of ~140 meq/L
I’ll let you calculate the concentration of NaCl in blood and compare it to the concentration in the vaccine.
Suffice to say the NaCl content of 0.50 ml of each solution is:
Blood – 4091 µg NaCl per 0.5 ml.
Vaccine – 10 µg NaCl per 0.5 ml.

I think the body can equalize the low NaCl concentration in the 0.50 ml vaccine without any systemic damage.
It may take a few seconds, but it will happen.
No “denatured” proteins or “increased antigenic determinants” or epigenetic mutations or bursting cells for your fantasy.

Lawrence writes (#21),

Yet you provide nothing to support either contention….

MJD says,

Is there anyone else who doesn’t believe sodium chloride can alter the tertiary structure of a protein in a aqueous medium?

@Orac,

Speak or forever hold your piece.

Lawrence #23,

“You really don’t understand what VAERS reports are, do you?”

Why don’t you please explain it to us?

Doctors are very imaginative in dismissing vaccine adverse events. But anaphylaxis proves to be tough one.

Anaphylaxis is a Type I immediate hypersensitivity reaction that could happen within minutes of allergen exposure.
A healthy kid walks in, gets a vaccine shot and immediately goes into anaphylaxis. What are you going to blame it on? What he ate for dinner 3 days ago?

A VAERS anaphylaxis report is extremely unlikely to be caused by anything other than the vaccine.

Dorit Reiss #3,
“difference between injection and ingestion”

As other have pointed out, for salt there is no difference.
But for proteins, it makes a huge difference.

https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/1913/richet-lecture.html

“We are so constituted that we can never receive other proteins into the blood than those that have been modified by digestive juices. Every time alien protein penetrates by effraction, the organism suffers and becomes resistant. This resistance lies in increased sensitivity, a sort of revolt against the second parenteral injection which would be fatal. At the first injection, the organism was taken by surprise and did not resist. At the second injection, the organism mans its defences and answers by the anaphylactic shock.”

Even the FDA is too stupid to understand this concept, from a hundred years ago.

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/ucm187810.htm

“Why are sugars, amino acids, and proteins added to some vaccines?
These substances may be added as stabilizers. They help protect the vaccine from adverse conditions such as the freeze-drying process, for those vaccines that are freeze dried. Stabilizers added to vaccines include: sugars such as sucrose and lactose, amino acids such as glycine or the monosodium salt of glutamic acid and proteins such as human serum albumin or gelatin. Sugars, amino acids and proteins are not unique to vaccines and are encountered in everyday life in the diet and are components that are in the body naturally.”

So food protein contaminated vaccines are causing the food allergy epidemic.
http://www.protocol-online.org/forums/topic/35639-professional-misconduct-by-nam-committee-on-food-allergy/

I understand that you think so. But the FDA disagrees, vaccine experts and immunologists disagree, and large scale studies found no link between vaccines and food allergies. I’m going with the experts and the abundant epidemiological data on this one.

“I’m going with the experts and the abundant epidemiological data on this one.”

In a well controlled experiment, with just two patients, it was IMMEDIATELY clear that food proteins in the vaccine boosted allergy. This demonstrates that the epidemiological studies and the vaccine “surveillance systems” are a joke.

IgE levels were declining until just before vaccination and then spiked after the vaccines.
https://wao.confex.com/wao/2015symp/webprogram/Paper9336.html

@26 : At the risk of feeding a moron/troll. You were asked to provide any evidence for your assertions at 16, yet you do not. Then you tell Orac to put up or shut up? Which are you, a vaccine damaged idiot or or a brain-damaged imbecile. Choose one or the other only.

He’d have a fit if he knew Boric Acid was an essential part of running some nuclear reactors (PWRs) for its neutron absorbing characteristic.

@vinu #23:

Type in ‘zombie’ as the search term and it returns considerably more than 60 cases. Oh no! But that still doesn’t tell us much that is useful.

Why don’t you please explain it to us?

Because most people here already know. Use the search box at the top right of the page and you too may join the enlightened…

Making vaccines is not like making cheese.

If Reality hasn’t already set in – The medium for culture of mammalian cells used in vaccine virus production contain about 3000 micrograms per half millilitre of sodium chloride. Many vaccines are made up to be approximately isotonic with sodium chloride approaching a concentration of 4500 µg/0.5 mL.

Speak or forever hold your piece.

Lordy. Talk about asking for a close encounter with teh ban hammer … or a poleaxe.

I see the other idiot is harping on the hundred year old paper again, ignoring the fact that there has been substantial much more recent research clearly demonstrating that small amounts of ingested proteins can be found in blood and even urine.

When you ingest proteins, you develop oral tolerance. So finding some ingested protein in the blood or urine does not change anything I am stating.
Our children are INJECTED with vaccines containing numerous food proteins, long BEFORE they have ANY chance to INGEST and develop tolerance. Once allergic, they cannot ingest and develop tolerance. Now with more vaccines contaminated with food proteins subsequently injected, they BOOST the food allergy.

https://wao.confex.com/wao/2015symp/webprogram/Paper9336.html

If he has to use a 100 year old paper to try to prove his contention, it explains a lot.

Here in my neck of the ( non) woods, ‘nerve disease’ would most likely refer to a bright blue cocktail served at hipster bars**.

** and yes, we have loads of hipster bars.

Speak or forever hold your piece.

But… we wouldn’t want him to shoot his foot off with it during pre-op/scrubs. Anyways, Orac doesn’t strike me as a second amendment kind of guy or cop.

Anonymous Pseudonym writes (#32),

Which are you, a vaccine damaged idiot or or a brain-damaged imbecile

MJD says,

Do you have data or a reference to quantify the prevalence of “a vaccine damaged idiot”?

This may be the wrong insult to use if your one of Orac’s minions.

@Dorit Reiss,(#31),

Do you solemnly (swear/affirm) that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, (so help you God)?.

Dorit Reiss #31,

“vaccine experts and immunologists disagree”

Sorry, that is not correct.

Please see:
https://iom.nationalacademies.org/Reports/2011/Adverse-Effects-of-Vaccines-Evidence-and-Causality.aspx

“Adverse events on our list thought to be due to IgE-mediated
hypersensitivity reactions

Antigens in the vaccines that the committee is charged with reviewing do not typically elicit an immediate hypersensitivity reaction (e.g., hepatitis B surface antigen, toxoids, gelatin, ovalbumin, casamino acids).
However, as will be discussed in subsequent chapters, the
above-mentioned antigens do occasionally induce IgE-mediated sensitization in some individuals and subsequent hypersensitivity reactions, including anaphylaxis.”

@Orac,

Speak or forever hold your piece.

This is why you should try to find a pay-to-play journal that actually includes copy editing in its APC, MJD. The only one who clearly has his “piece” consistently in hand is to be found in your nearest mirror.

Dorit Reiss #31,
“vaccine experts and immunologists disagree”

Who are these vaccine experts and immunologists?
Are they the same people who are clueless about why Flumist worked one year and failed miserably another year?

I have an explanation of why Flumist failed and it has to do with vaccines causing food allergy.

Long Term Persistence of IgE Anti-Influenza Virus Antibodies in Pediatric and Adult Serum Post Vaccination with Influenza Virus Vaccine
http://www.medsci.org/v08p0239.htm

When you receive Flumist the first time, you develop IgG (short term, primary protection against the flu) and IgE (long term allergy) to the influenza proteins.
When you receive subsequent Flumist, you suffer a mild allergic reaction. Your IgE antibodies bind to the viruses and neutralizes them before they can infect you. So you don’t develop new IgG. Vaccine is ineffective. A CDC researcher thanked me for connecting food allergy and vaccine ineffectiveness and bringing it to their attention.

@Narad (44),

I sent seven (7) e-mails to BAOJ in an attempt to make corrections, as they formatted the article, and it was a terrible experience.

https://bioaccent.org/cancer-sciences/cancer-sciences25.pdf

We live and learn…

Thanks, though, for remembering the review.

@Orac,

I’m just adding clarity to Narad’s constructive criticism and this is not an attempt to over step my boundaries.

Talking about toxins …

Food protein contaminated vaccines cause the development of food allergy. So, they turn food into a toxin for some people.

http://www.protocol-online.org/forums/topic/35639-professional-misconduct-by-nam-committee-on-food-allergy/

Now that vaccines have turned food into a toxin, the National Academy of Medicine is suggesting that we apply “methodologies of chemical toxicology” to food. The next time you order a burger, they will ask you if you want a Material Safety Data Sheet to go with it.

https://www.nap.edu/catalog/23658/finding-a-path-to-safety-in-food-allergy-assessment-of

Pg. 295

“The FDA has used risk assessment principles of increasing sophistication for many years. Although the appropriateness of using these concepts in the setting of allergenic foods was questionable in the past, improved understanding of the mechanism for allergic reactions to food, together with
emerging data from individuals with food allergy has led to the realization that the classical principles, terminology, and methodologies of chemical toxicology risk assessment can be applied to food allergens.”

For the Food and Drug Administration, approving drugs that turn food into a toxin, must be a crowning achievement.

Why did Orac leave these toxins out of the discussion?

Vinu @4: Uh, or you could be describing the well-documented phenomenon of original antigenic sin, where immunity specific to epitopes shared across multiple immunizations (vaccination or natural) is favored over novel epitopes, narrowing the immune response rather than broadening it. There’s an excellent explanation (with figure!) on page 453 of the 7th edition of Janeway’s Immunobiology.

Which has everything to do with how the immune system works and as is it based on T-cells, is not related to food allergy.

“original antigenic sin”

Given that, does it make any sense to inject yeast (HepB vaccine) the day a baby is born? And then continue to inject HepB and yeast contaminated Prevnar 13 several times after that?

“Vinu @4” not sure what that refers. Comment numbers don’t seem reliable.
If you are talking about Flumist and the original antigenic sin, Flumist should have always been ineffective. Why would it work one year and fail the following years?

Vinu @31: The statement ““We are so constituted that we can never receive other proteins into the blood than those that have been modified by digestive juices.” rather totally fails to take into account the all the other ways things get into the body beyond the digestive system.
What about the bacteria that cross the mucus membranes? Bacteria are made of protein, but we don’t die the second time we get infected with a bacteria, we mount an immune response and kill it.
And what about every injury to the skin that results in bleeding? Blood comes out and stuff, including proteins, goes in. What about insect bites? Mosquitoes inject proteins directly into the bloodstream, but most people only have a very localized reaction, not total anaphylactic shock.
And then if we even only consider human-caused insertion of material that bypasses the digestive system and goes into the bloodstream, what about the ancient practice of tattoo?

Let’s try to be a little more restrained in our sweeping generalizations.

“What about the bacteria that cross the mucus membranes? Bacteria are made of protein, but we don’t die the second time we get infected with a bacteria, we mount an immune response and kill it.”

Dose makes the difference. If too many of those bacteria are released into the blood, you have septic shock, very similar to anaphylactic shock.

Normal natural infection with those same bacteria, involve quantities of bacteria that do not cause anaphylaxis. Obviously, we have evolved to make that immune balance work.

@42: Your posts in this thread give almost equal credence to either option. Positive evidence lies in your lack of evidence backed by solid assertions. As is the solid science referenced by the others in this thread showing the stupidity of your argument. But keep avoiding answering the question, that way the default is my choice of appellation most suited to you.

It’s a shame that people think their ignorance and misinformation is the equal of scientific knowledge. This is why we can’t have nice things.

vinu @38: So, what vaccine administered before 6 months (the usual age to begin eating solid food) contains strawberry proteins? Or shellfish proteins?

Making vaccines is not like making cheese.

Dammit, there goes my “Oral vaccine administered as an artisanal fermented-milk-product” business plan.

JustaTech #54

Nobody knows what are all the food proteins that contaminate vaccines.

https://www.nap.edu/catalog/23658/finding-a-path-to-safety-in-food-allergy-assessment-of
NAM report pg.241
“Allergens in Vaccines, Medications, and Dietary Supplements

Physicians and patients with food allergy must consider potential food allergen exposures in vaccines, medications, and dietary supplement products (e.g., vitamins, probiotics), which are not regulated by labelling laws.
Also, excipients (i.e., substances added to medications to improve various characteristics) may be food or derived from foods (Kelso, 2014). These include milk proteins; soy derivatives; oils from sesame, peanut, fish or soy; and beef or fish gelatin. The medications involved include vaccines;
anesthetics; and oral, topical, and injected medications. With perhaps the exception of gelatin, reactions appear to be rare overall, likely because little residual protein is included in the final preparation of these items. The specific risk for each medication is not known.
Vaccines also may contain food allergens, such as egg protein or gelatin.”

A little off topic – I am just back from the dentist where I had a local anesthetic. I am sure if I asked to look at the packaging insert I would be horrified to see what ingredients that are in the injectable vaccine are also in the local anesthetic. What do the ant-vaxers do when they need a local anesthetic? How do they rationalize that?

Vaccines being injected numerous times, especially into babies, are on the top of the list. Local anesthetics should be cleaned up as well.

They don’t – they ignore anything that doesn’t fit into their anti-vax narrative.

That is what I assumed …. I don’t see many people waking up after a general anesthetic with the autisimz

“What about insect bites? Mosquitoes inject proteins directly into the bloodstream, but most people only have a very localized reaction, not total anaphylactic shock.”

Again dose makes the poison.
Food proteins are injected with aluminum salts as adjuvants. Aluminum salts are known to bias towards allergy. These food protein injections are repeated numerous times. Then we have exposures that are in food quantities which are way more than mosquito bite quantities.

Vinu @52: “Original Antigenic sin” only occurs with repeated exposure to similar but slightly different sets of antigens, as one sees in the various strains of flu that circulate year-to-year. Therefore the vaccine works fine the first time, and it works fine the second time too, but rather than conditioning the immune system to new antigens from the new flu strain it reinforces the antigens that are the same as last year’s strain.

I’ll again highly recommend Janeway’s Immunobiology as an excellent textbook.

More evidence supporting my Flumist failure explanation.

Menactra has N meningitidis antigens conjugated to diphtheria toxoid (DT). So a diphtheria vaccine administered a month ahead of Menactra, interferes.

The diphtheria antibodies neutralize the DT, affecting immunogenicity of Menactra.

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM131170.pdf

“Administraton of Menactra one month after DAPTACEL has
4 been shown to reduce meningococcal antibody responses to Menactra. ”

“In a double-blind, randomized, controlled trial, 1021 participants aged 11 through 17 years received Td vaccine and Menactra concomitantly (N=509), or Td vaccine followed one month later by Menactra (N=512). Sera were obtained approximately 28 days after each respective vaccination. The proportions of participants with a 4-fold or greater increase in SBA-BR titer to meningococcal Serogroups C, Y and W-135 were higher when Menactra was given concomitantly with Td vaccine (86%-96%) than when Menactra was given one month following Td vaccine (65%-91%). “

Vinu @65: Prove it. Show me how much mosquito anticoagulant is regurgitated into the bloodstream per bite, and the average number of bites per person per season, and then compare that to the current US childhood immunization schedule for a single year (to compare to the single season of bites).

Yes, the dose makes the poison. But while I may have had 30 vaccinations by the time I was 18 I’d also had probably a million mosquito bites. So, math up.

First, mosquito bites do not contain aluminum salts optimized to produce a strong immune response.

Second, you should account for the ELICITATION dose.

Then there is the matter of evolution. You have evolved through being bitten repeatedly by mosquitoes. If mosquitoes had injected egg proteins into mammals, throughout evolution, it would probably be safe to inject them using vaccines as well.

A great example is bee stings. You don’t suffer too many bee stings in nature.
If you become a beekeeper (evolution did not plan that), you get into trouble.
Repeated bee stings (injecting bee venom proteins) causes IgE mediated sensitization to the bee venom proteins and the development of IgE mediated allergy to bee venom.
Eich-Wanger C, Muller UR. Bee sting allergy in beekeepers. Clin Exp Allergy. 1998;28(10):1292–8.

An important consequence is that mosquito saliva protein is a good injectable protein for a vaccine, if you can manage to grow a bacteria in it.

Great point about mosquito bites – at times, kids can get bitten dozens of times within a very short period of time….

If this was not about a life-threatening condition, it would be hilarious.

http://www.ema.europa.eu/ema/index.jsp?curl=pages/news_and_events/news/2016/11/news_detail_002653.jsp&mid=WC0b01ac058004d5c1

“Review started on certain injectable medicines to treat allergic reactions

The PRAC started a review of certain medicines given by injection to treat severe, rapidly developing (acute) allergic reactions. The medicines involved contain the corticosteroid methylprednisolone as active ingredient. They also include as an additional ingredient lactose (milk sugar), which potentially contains traces of cows’ milk proteins that could affect treatment of acute reactions in the small number of
highly sensitive patients allergic to these proteins.

The review is triggered by reports of reactions to the medicines themselves in patients being treated for allergic conditions with these medicines who were also allergic to cows’ milk proteins.”

“The review is triggered by reports of patients treated for allergic conditions with these medicines, who were also allergic to cows’ milk proteins. The medicine itself apparently caused an allergic reaction in these patients. In such circumstances, the reaction to the medicine may
be mistaken for a worsening of the original condition, leading to additional doses of the medicine being given,” the EMA writes in a statement.

First they give our kids life-threatening food allergies with dirty food protein contaminated vaccines. Then when they suffer an allergic reaction, the dirty allergy medication they use is contaminated with more food proteins that make the reaction worse?
The truth can certainly be stranger than fiction …

Time to reboot.

Eric Lund –

The main problem with elemental Na is high reactivity, especially in the presence of water (no, I don’t know this from firsthand experience, but it’s likely I know someone who does).

I’ve seen the demo many times, and it’s quite nice. You can look one up on YouTube in the Periodic Table of Videos channel.

I recall someone who attended a small engineering college you may be familiar with who took some metallic sodium – in his hand – to the banks of the river in order to impress a girl. Everything went OK until the oil which separated the sodium from his body moisture, er, stopped separating them.

@ Lawrence

Careful mate, mosquito bites could herald the prevalence of Lawyers and Vampires…

Oooh, I see. Now the claim is that all food allergies are caused by vaccines. That’s a bizarre interpretation of the hygiene hypothesis.
Also pretty strongly lacking in evidence. Is vinu trying to say that there were no food allergies before vaccination? Is it all vaccines or a specific vaccine? If it is all vaccines why didn’t everyone who got the smallpox vaccine die of an allergy?
And again, what about tattoos? The history of tattooing goes back thousands of years across diverse cultures all over the world. So why would vaccines cause allergies and tattoos not?

Not sure if this was addressed to me …

“Is vinu trying to say that there were no food allergies before vaccination?”
They were rare.

“Is it all vaccines or a specific vaccine?”
All food protein contaminated vaccines AND all vaccines that contain bacterial proteins that can cross react with food proteins.

“If it is all vaccines why didn’t everyone who got the smallpox vaccine die of an allergy?”
No one is claiming that vaccines cause clinical allergy in EVERYONE who receives the vaccine. I have not studied the smallpox vaccine or its contaminants.

I am not familiar with the proteins involved in tattoos.

Jay, but vampires would be super helpful because they would have lived before vaccines and could tell the antivaxxers all about the epidemics!

MJD: “Is there anyone else who doesn’t believe sodium chloride can alter the tertiary structure of a protein in a aqueous medium?”

Is there anybody commenting on this thread that doesn’t have salt and protein bumping in to each other in an aqueous medium? You really didn’t think that one through did you?

MJD have you ever wondered that maybe Orac keeps you around for the damage you cause to your own side?

All the way back to the original post – while I personally am thrilled at how the price of recombinate HSA (human serum albumin) has come down so we can stop using the human derived stuff, to imply that no one screens it for viruses like HIV is ludicrous. (Also, this Wells is a terrible writer.)

Justatech, who are you fooling with these epidemic hoaxes? Everyone knows there where no epidemics, because everyone in the past ate organic and there were no toxins or GMOs.

Heck there was no reason for vaccines, so they were invented to cause diseases, so doctors could make a living, FACT!

Damn, have to go to bed, just when I was starting to have fun.

Actually last but not least, Vinu, why not do some research and come up with a graph showing the different growth media to cultivate vaccine viruses and then their resulting food allergies?

Start with Smallpox and the resulting beef allergies 😉

This is where the Skeptic’s Dictionary comes in handy.

fact
1. fact, n. A true statement about the world.
2. FACT! n. Not a fact

vinu
1. vinu, n. See FACT!

Jay: Exactly! And all those children loved working in the cotton mills and coal mines! They were happy working 14 hours a day and getting squashed to death before they turned 18!
The London fogs of the 1950’s were a cause for celebration!

“has come down so we can stop using the human derived stuff”

True, it also shows that vaccine manufacturers care about people’s concerns.

“it also shows that vaccine manufacturers care about people’s concerns.”

No, they don’t. Dr.Offit said so.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/paul-offit-a-choice-not-to-get-a-vaccine-is-not-a-risk-free-choice/
“Yeah. I think there are a couple things. The influenza vaccine and the yellow fever vaccine are both made in eggs; therefore they contain small quantities or residual quantities of egg proteins. About a half a percent of the population is allergic to eggs, including severe allergies, including things such as bad hives and shock, and those people can’t get influenza vaccine. Well, there’s no reason you can’t grow influenza vaccine in mammalian cells, meaning non-avian cells. That can be done. The technology has been available to do that for decades, but there’s been little interest in doing that. It cries out for, in many ways, consumer activism.

Similarly, there’s a stabilizing agent that’s used in the chicken pox vaccine called gelatin. It allows the vaccine virus to be distributed equally throughout the vial. The question is, are there other stabilizing agents that you could use, that aren’t gelatin, that could accomplish the same thing? Absolutely. But again there’s [been] very little pressure, I think, to do that, even though it’s probably the most common allergenic material in vaccines.”

vinu @79: ” all vaccines that contain bacterial proteins that can cross react with food proteins”
If bacterial proteins can cross react with food proteins then wouldn’t people also develop food allergies from being exposed to those specific bacteria?

Yes, the H1N1 virus naturally caused narcolepsy.
The Pandemrix vaccine also caused narcolepsy.

The key is route of exposure. Bacterial proteins are not usually injected along with aluminum salts as is the case with vaccines.
Also, once you are old enough to eat foods, you develop oral tolerance to those proteins. So bacterial infection after that are less likely to cause the development of allergy to those same proteins.

When we read things we take to be “ignorant, stupid, dumb, silly, nincompoopish” etc. I think it’s a drastic mistake to conisder the people writing them to be ignorant, stupid, dumb, silly, nincompoops. This leads to the idea that if they only had been or could be educated to the facts of ‘reality’ they’d be somehow cured and everything would be OK. “Delusional” is closer, but still too-much sounding like asylum-crazy to fit how these notions get by in the everyday world of otherwise functional and mostly sane individuals. That is, I’d guess most of S.D. Wells readers get up, get dressed, make breakfast, drive to work, do their jobs, and find their way back home without mistaking the toaster or other cars on the freeway for enslavement devices planted by the Red Lectroid invaders masquerading as their co-workers — or anything else we’d consider a sign of being delusional in general. People seem to go off very specific deep ends in ways that are inconsistent with how they approach most things in life.

And my main point here is that these deep-but-narrow delusions are far more common and pointed at a much wider range of things than the particular variety of delusion in alt-med anti-vax etc. etc. Even Mikey Adams and Alex Jones, who offer up fairly eclectic delusional smorgasbords, don’t come close to covering it all.

Last night Rachel Maddow covered some of recent politics in Michigan. She began with an automated unemployment insurance registration system that tagged 93% of applications as fraudlent, sent out robo-threats not just denying claims but levying completely inappropriate fines. Which many frightened unemployed people went further into debt to pay lest the face jail time, resulting in the balance in the State unemployment contingency fund rising from $3.1 million dollars to $155 million dollars. Of which the State has payed back only $5 million, with the legislature just having passed a measure to transfer t$10 million out of the fund to balance the state budget.

Next she reviewed the Flint water crisis, which resulted from decisions made by the Emergency Manager of Flint around the same time the automated unemployment bandit went online. As you probably know the EM swiitched Flint’s water supply from the clean water of Lake Huron to the polluted water of the Flint river, just pumping it straight into the pipes without proper treatment. The first result was 12 deaths from Legionaire’s disease, followed by the resulting corrosion of the pipes creating lead poisoning in massive chunks of the city’s population. This was back in news yesterday, because that now-former Flint EM and his also now-former successor and two of their public works appointees have been charged with multiple felonies by the State Attorney General.

Meanwhile, the city is still getting it’s water from the Flint river, virtually nothing has been done to fix the pipes, and the residents are not receiving the bottled water they need. The editor of The Flint Journal told Maddow:

The State has fought efforts to deliver that water; they just went to court to try to get out of that responsibility. You have these charges today where the State is being told they were putting money in front of people’s lives, and yet they’re still fighting tooth and nail to avoid doing even the most base responsibility.

I note this hear because neither Maddow nor anyone she interviewed from Flint can come to grips with how anyone could do this,. And after Maddow reports other news of the day from Washington, equally outre if not more so, she winds up speechless, just staring at the camera for several moments before recapturing her poise and continuing.

Why? How? The AG speaks of “”a fixation with finances and balance sheets … It’s all about numbers over people, money over health.” But I don’t think anyone imagines that this is a satisfactory. Why? How? could they do that?

But wait, there’s more! Maddow didn’t mention this:

Governor Rick Snyder has increased his legal defense budget for one of his private attorneys to $3.5 million. Snyder hired Warner, Norcross & Judd LLP last spring to represent him in the investigations into the Flint water crisis. The contract for their firm at the time was for $249,000. Over time, that cap rose to $2 million before its most recent increase… The money comes from taxpayer dollars – an issue that in the past caused a Flint resident to ask for a grand jury to look into the legality of the use. That case was not accepted by the court.

Or this:

Late on Friday afternoon Utah Republican Jason Chaffetz, chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, sent a pair of letters announcing the end of his investigation [into the Flint water crisis]. His letters offered no new information and essentially summarized what had already revealed about the crisis during several high-profile hearings earlier this year. The top Democrat on the Committee, Maryland’s Elijah Cummings refused to sign Chaffetz’s letters closing the Flint investigation. Cummings argued that Snyder had obstructed the investigation by not providing key documents that would explain when he learned about the severity of the crisis. With congressional Republicans concluding that oversight is no longer needed, Snyder is unlikely to release those documents.

Shall we call Rick Snyder, his Emergency Manager appointees, all the GOP legislators in Michigan, and everyone who voted for them after the deaths and poisoning in Flint hit the news ‘ignorant, stupid, dumb, silly, nincompoops’? When this is but a drop in the bucket of ‘delusion’ among the people running the country and the world, how can we be surprised at the ‘delusions’ of S. D. Wells or his readers at NN?

I struggle to think of any explanation for all this. This is the best I can up with at the moment: In a sane world, the news from Flint would force us all to stop whatever else we may be doing, pay attention, and adopt some sort of response to it in whatever we think and do going forward. But that’s too high a burden. The lower-third on the tube reads “President Elect Donald Trump” and we just keep on keeping on. The PEOTUS appoints an NSA director who Tweets Hillary Clinton and John Podesta are running a child sex-slave ring, and another high official at the same spy agency who claimed Barack Obama isn’t Black, but an Arab feigning Blackness to make false claims of victimhood. (Yes,you read that right, as the assumption would be that Muslims aren’t the victims of unjust discrimination in the US.) Do we stop and digest that, or just follow the news feed along to the next Trump-Tweet about his meeting with Kanye West, or the announcement that a duet between Taylor Swift and Zayn Malik will be featured in the soundtrack of “Fifty Shades Darker”?

The one comment on Wells that rang true for me was from Prof. Reiss, “The real problem is that most readers want to believe this.” My thoughts, then, are:
1. That this is not at all limited to the alt-med groupies at NN, but more of a pandemic touching otherwise ‘normal’ people on a whole host of issues.
2. That it’s less wanting to believe than needing to believe, for the purpose of reconciling the craziness of life with the need to plug ahead in mundane everyday activities and a mindset that ‘works’ for that maintenance.
3. That whether we call it desire or need the drive to believe is so strong that ‘believing makes it so” is as common as dirt.
4. Just because we can identify and scoff at some varieties of “believing makes it so” doesn’t mean we’re immune from all of it, or from simply tuning out, or otherwise not-dealing with certain pressing realities.

Finally, in thinking about all this as a sky filled with magic carpets, I was reminded of my old political economy professor (Vincent Mosco) who said of Reagan’s ‘Star Wars’ that the question wasn’t ‘Will it work?’ but ‘What work will it do?’ Magic carpets, by definition, don’t work as claimed. But they are, in fact, doing an awful lot of very real, very material work, yes?

[email protected]: With all respect to Dr Offit, transitioning a pharmaceutical manufacturing system from avian to mammalian cells is not at all trivial, would probably take a decade, and would be pretty darn expensive. Given that its unlikely that the price of the vaccine would make up for the cost of the transition (which would most likely also require clinical trials to prove that the vaccine is the same out of mammalian cells as it is out of chicken eggs), there is very little incentive for the companies to do this.

As for gelatin, all I can say is that any change in formulation requires mountains of data to the FDA, and occasionally a clinical trial. These are not simple, easy or quick changes to make.

We were warned more than a hundred years ago, against injecting proteins. So there has been plenty of time to fix it. First you have to ACKNOWLEDGE that the problem exists. Then we can find the best way to fix it.

The Japanese discovered that their gelatin contaminated vaccines were causing the development of gelatin allergy.
They ACKNOWLEDGED that gelatin contaminated vaccines were the problem and REMOVED gelatin from their vaccines to solve the problem.
Removal of gelatin from live vaccines and DTaP-an ultimate solution for vaccine-related gelatin allergy.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14624794

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