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Antivaxers marched on Washington last week. It was less than impressive.

A few dozen antivaccine activists descended upon Washington, DC to protest and lobby their legislators. The protest itself was not impressive, but pro-science advocates shouldn’t let this pathetic march lead them to be complacent. Antivaxers are meeting with legislators, and President Trump is sympathetic to their aims.

Last week, I took note of something that antivaxers hadn’t done in nine years, specifically a “march on Washington.” Back in 2008, Jenny McCarthy and her then-boyfriend Jim Carrey led a rag tag rogues’ gallery of antivaccine activists on a march and rally that they called “Green Our Vaccines.” The name of the rally, of course, derived from a common trope beloved of antivaccine activists that I like to refer to as the “toxin gambit.” It’s basically a Food Babe-like fear of those “evil chemicals” writ large in a claim that vaccines are packed full of horrific chemicals that are Making Our Babies Autistic—and/or making them asthmatic, diabetic, or even dying of sudden infant death syndrome. It’s a profoundly scientifically ignorant gambit in that the dose makes the poison and the amount of the various scary-sounding chemicals to which antivaxers like to point in vaccines is tiny and safe. For instance, antivaxers love to point to formaldehyde as one of those horrific toxins, and it’s true. There are tiny amounts of formaldehyde in some vaccines left over from the process of inactivating the virus. However, the human body makes formaldehyde as a normal byproduct of metabolism in amounts that far surpass that contained in any vaccine.

Nine years later, the rally is called Revolution for Truth, and the “march” and “rally” (if you can call it that) took place on Friday. I thought about ignoring it completely after my one post, but since the antivaccine movement is one of my main topics, I find it hard to let things go without one last post on this rally. Part of the reason is that the rally surprised me. No, it wasn’t the content of the speeches and signs that surprised me. Much of it was very similar to what occurred in 2008, although the cast of characters was largely different, with only Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. and Barbara Loe Fisher having appeared at both events. Also in the post-SB 277 world (SB 277 is the new law in California that banned nonmedical exemptions to school vaccine mandates), there was a lot more talk about “freedom,” and in the world of our very own Antivaxer-in-Chief, President Donald Trump, the rhetoric was much darker and more dire than in 2008. None of this is what surprised me though. What did surprise me is that, if anything, the turnout for the Antivaccine March on Washington, 2017 edition, appeared to be much smaller than the Antivaccine March on Washington, 2008 edition. Don’t get me wrong. The 2008 march attracted at most a few hundred people, but by comparison the photos of the 2017 March made the 2008 march look like the the crowd for Martin Luther King, Jr.’s “I Have a Dream” speech by comparison. (Antivaxers love to compare themselves to civil rights figures like Nelson Mandela or MLK.) I mean, take a look at the photos in this STAT News story, and you’ll get an idea. Then compare to the photos from nine years ago, and you’ll see what I mean.

Also, take a look at this photo on Twitter:

I honestly did not expect that. News coverage described the crowd as in the dozens, not the hundreds. Unfortunately, as I’ve been describing before when I lamented the politicization of vaccine mandates such that antivaxers are increasingly co-opting the rhetoric and messaging of the Tea Party to equate school vaccine mandates as tyranny and “vaccine choice” as “freedom,” thus undermining what has until recently been a broad, bipartisan agreement about public health. For example:

For their lobbying day on Thursday, the activists had agreed to wear shades of the American flag: Red if they’d had a loved one injured by vaccines, and white if they were there in solidarity. (They were supposed to wear blue if a loved one had died from a vaccine injury, but STAT didn’t see anyone in the group wearing that color.)

Dressed in a red sweater and seated in a wheelchair, activist Marcella Piper-Terry teared up as she talked about her own chronic pain condition and her young adult daughter’s seizures and Asperger’s syndrome. She believes those injuries stem from vaccines.

What? They couldn’t find a single antivaxer who thought that vaccines killed their child?

As tiny as the group was, we can’t be complacent, as we can’t say that they might not have an effect in the age of Donald Trump:

The day of demonstrations followed an intense lobbying push on Thursday. Activists held 80 meetings on Capitol Hill, many of them with staffers for members of Congress, according to Irene Pi, an organizer from Arizona. Among their goals: Push President Trump to establish a vaccine safety committee led by Kennedy.

“We’re being heard, and we’re going to enact change,” activist Jena Dalpez said.

Fortunately, that remains to be seen.

Because of the rain, unlike the rally in 2008, the speeches for Revolution for Truth took place indoors as the Washington Press Club, the very same place where a few weeks ago Robert F. Kennedy Jr. issued his ridiculous “thimerosal challenge.” And what a bunch of speeches that this small band of antivaxers and a few reporters sat through, including Rebecca Robbins of STAT News:

Because of the length, I must admit that I didn’t watch all the speeches—or even close. Even a cursory listen told me that it was a lot of the same ol’, same ol’. For instance, Kent Heckenlively’s speech in person was even worse than it was in print in all caps:

Yes, he referred to vaccines (or vaccine scientists; I’m not sure which) as “monstrous” evil and “unbelievable” wickedness. You get the idea. This is what most of the speeches were like.

For instance, here’s Scientology’s the Nation of Islam’s Minister Tony Muhammad:

We’ve met Muhammad before, and his speech here isn’t much different than the speech he gave a year and a half ago at a protest at the CDC. There are a lot of references to “satanic forces” and conspiracies, as you would expect. In fact, as I went back and looked at my old post about that CDC “protest,” it occurred to me that “Revolution for Truth” reminded me, more than anything else, of that CDC protest more than the “Green Our Vaccines” rally.

One thing that I found strange about “Revolution for Truth” is that Andrew Wakefield wasn’t there, even though a lot of people involved in his antivaccine propaganda film VAXXED were there. For instance, here’s one of the parents featured in VAXXED, Sheila Lewis Ealey:

At least she’s honest enough to state plainly that she is antivaccine and to assert that there is “no such thing as a save vaccine.” (That kind of blows the cover off of, for instance, the organizers of the rally and RFK Jr.’s claims that they are not antivaccine,” especially given how the crowd roared its approval to both lines. I’ve observed in past antivaccine conclaves that proclaiming oneself antivaccine and saying there’s no such thing as a safe vaccine are two guaranteed applause lines.) Of course, she couldn’t resist throwing in some Biblical stuff about how before vaccines “people were living, and they were living up to 200 years of age and beyond.” The dead silence after that statement showed that it was just a bit too batshit nuts, even for people who are so antivaccine that they are willing to travel from all over the country to Washington, DC to participate in a protest like this. That’s saying something. After all, these are people who didn’t bat an eye at Ealey’s likening the Dredd Scott decision regarding slavery to the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986, which created the Vaccine Court and the primary method of compensating people who suffer legitimate vaccine injury. To her, the NCVIA made children “property, not people,” just as the Dredd Scott decision reinforced that slaves were property, to enthusiastic applause. When she then likened antivaxers to the “new abolitionists,” the crowd went wild. Wow. Hyperbole much? Well done, Ms. Ealey! Fortunately, your bit about how before vaccines people lived 200 years made even the die-hard antivaxers who applauded your references to slavery go silent. She also revealed how parents arguing for “parental rights” with respect to vaccines think.

And here’s Brian Hooker, the biochemical engineer turned incompetent epidemiologist and statistician who loves “simplicity” in statistics, with all the screwups that flow from that:

And, of course, here’s the producer of VAXXED, Del Bigtree himself, whom we’ve met many times before:

Bigtree spends some time in the middle of his talk sarcastically beating up on a woman who didn’t buy into the pseudoscience, quackery, and conspiracy mongering of the rally. Particularly hilarious is the part where he brags about how he doesn’t care if there’s a reporter doing a “hit piece” and that he’ll stand in front of any camera “any day of the week” because “we’re telling the truth.” Um, no, Del. You might think you’re telling the truth, but in reality you’re spewing easily debunked lies, weaving them together into a tapestry of misinformation and pseudoscience that can be hard to penetrate if you don’t—as I and some other skeptics do—have deep background knowledge of the specific threads of misinformation used to weave that tapestry. You are a propagandist, like Leni Reifenstahl, only much less talented. He then plays to the audience by referencing in contrast Paul Offit, who quite understandably got a bit pissed off at a VAXXED “reporter” who was bothering him in a hospital cafeteria while he was eating. It’s a disingenuous comparison, of course. There’s a difference between being a camera-hungry publicity hound of a crank desperate to speak to the press and being a real scientist tired of being hounded by antivaxers wherever he goes. Of course, disingenuous is how Bigtree rolls. It’s how he’s always rolled.

Of course, the main attraction had nothing to do with VAXXED. It was RFK, Jr., the environmentalist turned antivaccine crank since sometime around 2005. Specifically, he’s a member of the mercury militia branch of the antivaccine movement, which is the branch that passionately believes that the mercury in the thimerosal that was used as a preservative in some childhood vaccines was responsible for the “autism epidemic.” Never mind that thimerosal was removed from nearly all childhood vaccines in 2002 and in 2017, 15 years later, autism rates have not plummeted. Here he is again doing what he does best, blustering, deluding himself by claiming he’s “not antivaccine,” and spreading antivaccine pseudoscience hither, thither, and yon:

Notice one thing he didn’t mention? Hopes were high among antivaxers that RFK Jr. would announce the “vaccine safety commission” that Donald Trump asked him to chair. (Or so he claimed; the transition team denied it that he had been offered anything, but that didn’t stop him from running straight to the press to brag about how he would chair a Presidential commission on vaccine safety and/or autism.) One would think that, if it were confirmed that there would be such a commission, this “rally” would have been the perfect place to announce it.

Through it all, various antivaccine activists laid down a barrage of misinformation so thick and convoluted that Duane Gish himself would be proud. Examples were relayed on Twitter, such as:

Toni Bark’s claim is, of course, utterly without a basis in scientific or clinical evidence. No surprise there.

There were also calls for measures that are clearly unethical and dangerous, such as this:

All the while they deny that they’re antivaccine while saying things like the statements above and Tweeting things like this:

Sure. You’re not antivaccine. Ri-ight… Whatever you say…

In the end, as surprised as I was that this was the case, I was glad that the 2017 version of the antivaccine “march on Washington” fizzled even worse than the 2008 version. Of course, the 2008 version had actual celebrities. Even though Jenny McCarthy was at best a C-list celebrity then, Jim Carrey was still arguably A-list. They also did their march in June and were fortunate enough to have a beautiful sunny day. Even so, I would have thought that in the world of Donald Trump, antivaxers could have done better. I’m glad they didn’t.

On the other hand, remember images like this:

That’s a photo of antivaxers meeting with Rep. Jason Chaffetz (R-UT), Chair of the powerful House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, whom Del Bigtree lobbied last summer, complete with a copy of VAXXED for him. Whether Chaffetz is just playing the marchers or really is sympathetic to their viewpoint and demands, such as a demand for an “independent” vaccine safety commission, it’s a bit worrisome that antivaxers appear to have such easy access to such a powerful Congressman, particularly in the context of their apparently having the ear of the President.

Stay frosty, my friends. The Revolution for Truth rally might have been an embarrassing bust, but the real threat advocates of science and public health have to look out for exists in photos like this and what they tell us.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

143 replies on “Antivaxers marched on Washington last week. It was less than impressive.”

I imagine Jim Carrey thought his star power would attract people in the thousands. When only a few hundred kooks showed up he must have realized the pit of BSC he’d leaped headfirst into.

I’m sure his agent told him, “If you want to stay relevant in Hollywood you will not do something like this again.”

News coverage described the crowd as in the dozens, not the hundreds.

Dozens, plural? Admittedly there may have been more to the crowd than shown in the photo attached to the first Rebecca Robbins tweet, but I count twelve people in that photo.

Regarding Chaffetz, given his track record, I am inclined to assume the worst about him. He’s used his position to repeatedly investigate Hillary’s e-mails and Benghazi, repeatedly finding in both cases that there is no there there, but has no interest in investigating the much more serious allegations against Donald Trump and other Republicans.

‘Dozens’ is right. Their Facebook page has some video shot outside the Press Club, and I’d say no more than 5 dozen idiots were there.

Every speaker would have time to talk to every protester one on one. They could have saved money on PA system rental.

Viewed through the lens of homeopathy, the smaller the crowd, the more powerful.

I was particularly impressed by the crowds showing up from Scientology the KKK the NOI. They certainly had a great showing for this event.

Sheila Lewis Ealy laid down some truly irrational and demented stuff including allusions to racism, a lot of children’s lives “snuffed out” by vaccines, and the obligatory ‘religious piety’ of the radicals who call for violence and death against their enemies:
“Because I’m going to tell you who I am. I AM ANTI-VACCINE! [Loud cheering and applause.]”
followed by this lunacy,
“Before the onset of vaccines people were living, and they were living up to 200 years of age and beyond. [dead silence.]”

You could almost hear the jaws hit the floor with that last statement. Isn’t everyone familiar with going to the cemetery and seeing numerous markers that say, “Here lies Jeremiah Blow Age 439”?
Stark. raving. mad.

Hopefully this is an indication that the AA community isn’t falling for this scam, heavily directed toward them, in any numbers.
I also note that Babs Low Fisher, and others, were blending anti-vaccine with anti-fluoride and anti-GMO propaganda. It makes sense as this ‘Revolution4Truth’ march was organized around a blending of these internet anti-science, Luddite delusions. Perhaps this indicates the anti-vaccine scammers need new blood to prey upon as they’ve bled the anti-vaccinationists dry.

Viewed through the lens of homeopathy, the smaller the crowd, the more powerful.

No, no, no, they have to be dilute – can’t be standing all together like that. How to succuss them is anybody’s guess.

Before the onset of vaccines people were living, and they were living up to 200 years of age and beyond.

Well, the Book of Genesis, which certain people regard as a reliable source, claims that someone named Methuselah lived to the age of 969. (Genesis 5:27, KJV: “And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.”) And of course this was before the invention of vaccines.

In case it wasn’t obvious, I am not among the people who believe that claim.

That one photo with all the umbrellas made the march look more like a lot of commuters who had just gotten off the commuter train than a demonstration.

I am glad they had good weather.

What? They couldn’t find a single antivaxer who thought that vaccines killed their child?

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons membership must have been busy that day. I am sure they have documented thousands</s hundreds scores a bunch of childhood deaths attributable to vaccines.

Great image! Best laugh I’ve had all week!

They tell us that the ‘revolution won’t be televised’
Suddenly , I can see why.

Well, I’m not surprised at all at the low turnout.

As best I can read the clues, I think “the anti-vax movement” has been shrinking back to core group of fringe extremists post Disneyland/SB277. In the Jenny McCarthy heyday, the way the AVs presented themselves and their case had some potential appeal expecting parents who were generally sensible folks. Even in the clusters in Orange and Sonoma counties, the vax uptake couldn’t have dropped outbreak-threat low numbers without a good number of parents merely being ‘vax-hesitant’, falsely thinking avoiding the shots fell into “better safe than sorry” precaution. But look at that Greatest Lie image. The rhetoric is so out there, so polarizing, there’s no broad appeal. Just about the only way a person can approach the frames pretty much all the AVs use now is ‘all or nothing’. So you get the Sheila Lewis Ealey types, but that’s it. Dozens of attendees, nothing but “the usual suspects” at the mic; only eight comments here so far and no trolls. If this ain’t a dying topic, I don’t know what is.

Which is not at all to say I think there’s no threat, or that complacency is OK. I just don’t think there’s any real threat from the tattered remains of ‘the anti-vax movement’ per se. I think public health advocates should (re)direct their vigilance to areas where immunization rates can be affected by a sort of ‘collateral damage’ of other policy matters and/or ideologies – especially in the terrain of “health freedom”.

And then there’s Jeff Sessions, who’s opposed to regulations requiring schools to protect and provide services for disabled kids, including those with ASDs. There could be some real horror stories down the road if we go backward here – a lot more pressure on parents of more severely autistic kids leading to more Kelli Stapleton-esque breakdowns and desperate bad acts – and that could re-invigorate autism fears, and refuel some sort of AV politicking.

If we wind up in that environment, I’d suggest turning your attention away from ‘the usual suspects” at that embarrasing bust of a rally – those folks are spent, politically – and watch the horizen for new players, especially any sort of ‘new Jenny McCarthy’ figure. Someone sympathetic mediagenic, younger and new to the issue and who can present “questiions” about vaccines as a new discovery, and re-invigorate the level of mere doubt about vaccines that can get members of the next generation of non-nutjob concerned parents-to-be to be just hesitant enough about the shots to seek a PBE ‘just to be safe’…

How to succuss them is anybody’s guess.

Hit them with a bible?

At this point, I would want external evidence for any political gain they claim. There have just been too many disproven claims.

Their rousing protest in front of the National Press Club.
Literally dozens attended.
I can’t help but smile at all the loons looking like drown rats halfheartedly chanting the idiotic memes. It got especially rousing when the rep. from the Weston A Price Listeriosis Society took over the microphone. /sarc

It makes you wonder why one of the anti-vaccine “heroes”, like Del Bigtwig, didn’t put in an appearance to buck up the troops. I guess they’ve all become too important to be bothered with the hoi polloi that make up their supporters.

I did think I saw a few longingly eyeing the Press Liquors store next door. Probably the folks from the TMR…

Sadmar, I won’t count the anti vax loons out until my patients quit refusing vaccines and asking about “preservatives” in Vitamin K for babies.

I think you might have a point. Back when Wakefield first went public with his MMR scam I was a mum with 2 young autistic children and a new baby. No one was ranting about all vaccines being dangerous or wittering on about dangerous additives. It was just the MMR. Rational parents like myself were happily giving the rest of the schedule but dithering over the MMR. Now I think that genuine concerns about the MMR have been settled it is a much smaller hardcore group that have gradually become evermore paranoid. I think alas they will always have a following of ‘true believers’ but the sheer overwhelming dottiness of some of their beliefs means that a lot of people who might be swayed by a more moderate approach, do dismiss them as cranks. The Vaxxed team have their followers this side of the pond but they are having a hard time getting venues for their film and have had no positive media cover.

I am really proud of how well the AV groups attended this very important march, it must rank up there with MLK (being very sarcastic).

On a personal note I am in the process of planning a vacation to Chiang Mai, Thailand. I am current with my normal vaccinations (just had a tetanus booster yesterday), any special vaccinations you can think of that would be appropriate?

Also, any good ideas of places to visit while I am there? I am researching places that I might want to retire to.



Rich @19: The CDC’s website is usually pretty up-to-date with travel medicine recommendations. They suggest Hep A and typhoid.
Have you considered Costa Rica? I’ve only been twice but it’s been lovely both times.

@Sadmar said: “As best I can read the clues, I think ‘the anti-vax movement’ has been shrinking back to core group of fringe extremists…”

Of course there are efforts underway to create that impression–it’s critical for manufacturing consent–but the reality is just the opposite. That’s the reason for the frantic push to pass SB277, and to withhold child benefits from Australians who refuse to fully vaccinate, for example.

We can expect more and more efforts to prop up the shaky vaccine house of cards with coercive laws and regulations, and lots of pro-vax propaganda in the media. There are people in very high places who cannot allow that house of cards to fall.

“Diet, injections, and injunctions will combine, from a very early age, to produce the sort of character and the sort of beliefs that the authorities consider desirable, and any serious criticism of the powers that be will become psychologically impossible.” — Bertrand Russell, The Impact of Science on Society (1952)

“How to succuss them is anybody’s guess.”
I have a leather strap that should work fine. I’ll even do the job for them.

JustaTech, I’ve had both the hep A and B series (part of my job requirements). I’ll check out the typhoid.

Chiang Mai is one of my top relocation spots because it is central to some of the adventures that I want to do. There is a trek in Nepal called the Long Trek nd basically follows the spine of the Himalayas for 1000 miles (you can’t do it in a single trekking season. Oh, there are some 20,000+ passes to go over and I have only been to 17,000.

Goodness, NWO, do you ever have anything new to say?

Out of curiosity, do you understand the germ theory of disease? Or do you ascribe all diseases to demons?

Oh, I know a great, vaccine-free place you can go! Afghanistan. You’ll love it.

Liz Ditz writes,

Viewed through the lens of homeopathy, the smaller the crowd, the more powerful.

MJD say,

Very clever and funny!

From my perspective, though, the crowd reminds me of allergy immunotherapy wherein the numbers slowly increase until specific antibodies (i.e. Orac’s minions) no longer consider them a threat.

Orac’s is correct again when he says “Stay frosty, my friends”.

To be honest, I’m anti-vaccine when the vaccine packaging says, “Warning contains natural rubber latex”.

This is a coming-out (i.e., medical) personal statement from me and I feel wonderful!

Piss off, Travis J. Schwochert 239 S Church St Endeavor, WI 53930

Banhammer summoned via moderated post

Yeah, I recognized it right away because he was using Scott Gavura’s e-mail address. It’s been dealt with.

Can you watch my daughter for me so I can pay for an airline ticket to fly to DC to attend this event even though I am unemployed due to having to care for a permanently disabled child? Sincerely, thousands and thousands of parents of vaccine injured kids.

If I allowed you to care for my child would you vaccinate her even though you knew it was against my wishes as a parent?

Jeff: “Sincerely, thousands and thousands of parents of vaccine injured kids.”

What happened with your National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program claim? Also, do tell us what experts you called in to prove the injury was from vaccines. Also the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the disease.

Sincerely, the parents of disease injured children before the vaccine was available (which were in the tens of thousands before the mid-1960s).

“As best I can read the clues, I think ‘the anti-vax movement’ has been shrinking back to core group of fringe extremists…”

Of course there are efforts underway to create that impression…

Yeah, and it all comes from the idiot anti-vaxers themselves.

First, AoA launches a nationwide petition to the White House, and don’t discourage foreign citizens from signing it, and they come up with an impressive total of less than 17,500. That’s a number so small that if you put them all in California, they would each have more than 9 square miles to roam around in. It’s about the population of Talladega. It’s less than 1 in 18,000 Americans. I’d bet that you were one of those that signed that petition, weren’t you?

Then there is the subject of our host’s post, the turnout for their march. I doubt they managed to pull in enough people to fill the roster of an NFL team.

So who is behind this effort to make them look like small band loonies? How are they doing this, besides posting the truth?

Chris writes,

Also the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the disease.

MJD interjects,

From the CDC:

“If a person reports a severe (anaphylactic) allergy to latex, vaccines supplied in vials or syringes that contain natural
rubber, or whose product information does not say ‘not made with natural rubber latex’ should not be administered unless the benefit of vaccination outweighs the risk for a potential allergic reaction. In these cases, providers should be prepared to treat patients who are having an allergic reaction.”

Offit et al. take on allergies and pediatric vaccines


Allergy-induced regressive autism

Metuselah was never presented as typical, to my understanding.

They’re more than dozens – their petition got about 17,000 – but they’re still
A very small minority, if passionate and committed.

Jeff, I just thought of something you can do for your daughter. Find her another family that knows how to find the actual services she needs. You might start by contacting your local ARC.

She would definitely be better off with a family that did not consider her “damaged”, and would actually cherish her for who she is.

On a personal note I am in the process of planning a vacation to Chiang Mai, Thailand. I am current with my normal vaccinations (just had a tetanus booster yesterday), any special vaccinations you can think of that would be appropriate?

As JustaTech says, check the CDC for current information. Without looking, I would guess that you should get a yellow fever vaccination if it’s been more than ten years since your last one–many countries at those latitudes require it, at least if you plan to cross land borders. You might also want to look into malaria prophylaxis–ISTR that in parts of Southeast Asia you might encounter mefloquine-resistant malaria, but I don’t know if Chiangmai is one of those areas.

Re malaria:

30 days of doxycycline should do the trick. I did that when I visited Korea a few years ago, no side effects like what you find with the quinines. Cheap, too.

@NWO Reporter & @Jeff

Obviously you must realize you’re clueless but just to recap your “movement” spent MONTHS organizing a “big” rally in D.C…you even had a freakin website created. And literally less people showed up than probably designed the website. There are more people working at the corner Burger King than showed up for your “big” protest. It was embarrassing. Literally the KKK got more people at their last rally. Do you think the Klan is going to be part of a movement that’s going to change legislation?

You attempted a hate laced petition to “declare autistics an epidemic” and couldn’t even get 20% of the required ONLINE signatures. Were those “thousands” of parents of vaccine injured children unable to spend 16 seconds doing that? Maybe they were too busy liking Natural News articles and posting their “warrior mommy” blogs?

How about that Pan recall effort where you couldn’t even get a single signature?

To say this movement is growing is a disgrace and insult to movements. Most of the people in the movement are the same ones we see online. They’re loud, abrasive, annoying and science challenged. But it’s the same damn charlatans. Nothing new (except adding in anti-semitism and holocaust denial to the cause:

It’s sad that somewhere in the world (or in heaven) there are parents of someone who believes:
“There are people in very high places who cannot allow that house of cards to fall.”

Can you get more paranoid/tin foil hat than that ignorant and completely not-evidence based idiotic statement.

Damn, some people…

P.S. Your movement needs a COMPLETE overhaul. It’s a disaster.

Jeff: Not only would I vaccinate her, I’d make sure you never saw her again. Autistic kids need and deserve better parents than anti-vax curebie crybabies.

I’m quite sure the vast majority of people who understand the real depth of vaccine fraud realize that petitions and marches on Washington will not solve the problem. That’s like asking the coyotes to do a better job guarding the hen house.

@NWO Reporter

Spoken like a true beaten down man who can’t actually respond to facts so he has to go 4th grade level response “I didn’t care about those marches & petitions anyways!”

Funny if the march on Washington had thousands of people he’d be the first to talk about how the world is “waking up.”

Maybe look back in history and see what happened in the sixties with civil rights. Or in today’s age with gay rights. Marches and petitions and a REAL movement actually changed the world. Your 12 guys with idiotic signs just made your cause look even worse.

I can’t think of a so-called movement that’s ever been organized worse in human history. Like I said, the KKK have more respect (and numbers) that you’ll ever have. That’s not debatable.

I’ll bite – what are “the vast majority of people who understand the real depth of vaccine fraud” doing? Posting scientifically illiterate comments on blogs, like you?

@The ‘Real Truther’ — The only thing petitions and marches can do is to alert people there is a problem they need to look into. And appease people who haven’t realized the depth of the vaccine fraud, and think all we need are ‘safer’ vaccines.

Cute name. I see that kind of doublespeak being used a lot these days. Just call it ‘truth’ or ‘waking up’ and people believe that’s what you’re offering.

I see that kind of doublespeak being used a lot these days. Just call it ‘truth’ or ‘waking up’ and people believe that’s what you’re offering.

Well, it’s not mindless assertions that are promptly run away from, crude attempts at animation, slorping down Rappoport’s emissions, and skimming heavily from overdue child-support payments, that’s true.

NWO Troll, why do you hate kids? Only a sadistic child hater would want them to suffer the high fevers and possible meningitis, encephalitis, seizures and other bad things form actual vaccine preventable diseases. Seriously, why do you hate children?

Are you a sadist who gets off on kids in pain, or do you just hate children?

Chris, your hypocrisy and corruption is monumental. Science Mom is another one of your socks, right? I see you all over vaccine media stories, slinging the same tired insults and obvious propaganda. You couldn’t care less about the well-being of children.


How exactly?

I’d recommend that you read “The Great Derangement” by Matt Taibbi – it very clearly explains why people like you feel the need to believe in conspiracy theories.

@ Lawrence: NWO can only sling her insults because she has no facts to support her theories. She *has* to call Chris names, because if she looked at the facts, she’d find out how wrong she is, and her narcissism won’t allow for that. She obviously doesn’t care for children, or the adults they will become.

@NWO: you can go ahead and call me names, too. After all, I’m an adult who suffered through most of the VPDs, being a child of the 60s. And, I didn’t get the fairy-tale “life-long immunity” from most of them, thanks to a quirk in my genetics. My mom and dad would be very happy to tell you about the “pleasures” of the others they suffered. Strangely, even though we have autism in our genes, they were first in line with us, as my sister and I were, to have our children vaccinated on schedule. Guess we’ve just been “pharma shills” for ever. Can’t wait for the nearly 80 years of shill bucks to arrive…

@NWO Reporter

Please name a SINGLE movement in US history that was instrumental in creating actual change which didn’t have MASSIVE OVERWHELMING numbers at rallies, protests (peaceful or not), etc.

Women’s rights movement? No.
Labor movement? No.
Civil rights movement? No.
Gay rights movement? No.

Your “movement’s” biggest protest of the year barely made a single newspaper. I doubt 99.9999% of the country even knew it existed.

Like I said before, the KKK has more clout, respect and better organization than the anti-vax “movement” at this point. That is NOT debatable.

Chris, your hypocrisy and corruption [sic] is monumental. Science Mom is another one of your socks, right?

There was no need to demonstrate yet again the paucity of your imagination, I assure you.

Johnny @51
It is really hard to say if Shatner is a true antivaxer in the Robert De Niro mode,just because he retweeted one of Jake’s posts.He may be one of those who are on the fence about vaccines.For the last eleven years,Mr.Shatner has been a spokesman for the March of Dimes Canada,urging the eradication of polio,and promoting vaccination for same.

I don’t think Shatner is an antivaxer. At least, I’ve never seen any evidence that he is. I think he just picked Autism Speaks as a charity to promote and was shocked (and miffed) when a lot of autistic people took him to task for it on Twitter. Retweeting Jake was really dumb, but Shatner clearly knew nothing about Jake or his antivaccine views and probably retweeted him because he was agreeing with Shatner. It’s halfway tempting to try to educate Shatner about the depths of lunacy to which Jake regularly descends, but he seems to be one of those guys who doesn’t take criticism well.

I mean, blocking Ari Ne’eman? Not cool, Shat. Not cool at all.

Oh No, I am vaccine damaged. I finally pulled the dot band aid off the site of my tetanus shot I received Monday and there was a spot of blood on it.

I don’t know what traumatic event from this I’ll now face. Probably death in another 20 or 30 years (I am 63 now).

Your “movement’s” biggest protest of the year barely made a single newspaper. I doubt 99.9999% of the country even knew it existed.

No, you’re missing the Big Picture: most of those people are patsies, led by their snouts by Disinformation Agents. Ginny’s “movement” is much more, ah, stolid, as they say in Maracaibo.*

* What can I say? It’s a go-to.

“Probably death in another 20 or 30 years (I am 63 now).”

And to think you could have lived to be 200. I guess I’m also screwed by vaccination. It’s time to update the will.

It is really hard to say if Shatner is a true antivaxer in the Robert De Niro mode,just because he retweeted one of Jake’s posts.

I don’t disagree. But Jake think’s Shatner is his #1 fan. Jake’s so desperate for any sort of validation that his backwater of a blog has any impact, that any mention of the blog is enough for a blog post in its own right.

It would be cute if it wasn’t so sad.

MI Dawn, for the record, opining that someone engages in hypocrisy and corruption is not name-calling. Name-calling would be, for example, calling Chris a “hypocritical disinformation troll,” or “corrupt mercenary troll,” and I resisted the temptation. Calling someone a “sadistic child hater” would clearly be considered name-calling.

Anyway, what do you mean about calling you names “too”? Are you saying you’re not just another sock? 🙂

You must have an exceptionally weak and disfunctional immune system. That means you’re at risk from literally everything, and all the vaccines in the world can’t save you. You need a bubble to live in–it could help ease your “suffering.”

And “autism in your genes,” too? Which genes? I’m sure genetic researchers would love to know. Must be the ones that mutated into in an autism explosion a couple decades ago. 🙂

You mean the more than 400 genes that researchers have identified as being related, in some form, to autism?

We are talking about a very wide spectrum – and it’s quite possible that different forms of what we now consider “autism” are caused by completely different genes.

And the so-called “autism” explosion is directly related to the “explosion” of the DSM criteria for determining a diagnosis of autism.

Lawrence–Just an explosion in autism diagnoses, eh? I thought ya’ll backed off that ridiculously untenable position a long time ago. But anyway, vaccines don’t cause autism, strictly speaking. Autism is just one of many behavioral diagnoses that could follow from brain damage caused by vaccines. That is, when the brain damage is more than subclinical.

Really NWRO?

And what does this “brain damage” look like on an MRI?

Lawrence–Just an explosion in autism diagnoses, eh?

Add to that increased awareness, diagnostic substitution (people who would have been diagnosed with other conditions in the past getting diagnosed with autism today), and previous underdiagnosis (many people have only been diagnosed years into adulthood).
You’re wrong that that position is untenable. Just look at the different diagnostic standards between DSM-3 and DSM-5, and still try to claim that.

Lawrence –There’s no physical test to diagnose autism, as I think you know. But in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, quite a few injuries that include autism have been compensated, arising from vaccine-induced encephalopathy and seizure disorder. You can read the study here:

There are no cases in the NVICP where the plaintiff was compensated for a diagnosis of autism….

And NWRO – you’re the one who claimed that autism is “Brain Damage.”

Brain damage can be identified via MRI.

So what constitutes “brain damage” that equals autism?

Lawrence, note I said “injuries that include autism.” If a parent makes a claim for autism as a vaccine injury in the VICP, the claim will always be denied because it’s not on the list of ‘approved’ injuries. From the study I referenced:

“This empirical investigation, published in a peer-reviewed law journal, examines claims that the VICP compensated for vaccine-induced encephalopathy and seizure disorder. … This study found 83 cases of acknowledged vaccine-induced brain damage that include autism…”

I’ve stopped answering the commenter, since it’s pointless, but this comment is very wrong on several levels.

First, claims to VICP are not limited to a list of approved injuries. If someone claims a table injury, causation is presumed, so winning is easier – but the standard for causation in other cases is still the “more likely than not”, and in fact, the requirements are lower than in the court.

Second, the reason people claiming ASD consistently lose in VICP is because the evidence shows vaccines don’t cause ASD – and in many of these cases, the medical records don’t support parental claims, either. Like Brian Hooker’s case.

Third, the paper you are referring to did not have any cases where compensation was based on autism. In fact, in some cases the government claimed autism as a defense – as in, the child’s problems are because of autism and have nothing to do with vaccines, and the court rejected the autism claim. Using that paper as evidence that vaccines have anything to do with autism is simply wrong.

I see you can’t answer a very simple question.

See, you made the claim, therefore, you need to provide the evidence.

You also provided a link to a legal organization, not a scientific one….perhaps you should try again.

@JoyMama – yet we have the lowest infant and child mortality rates in history… to explain?

for the record, opining that someone engages in hypocrisy and corruption is not name-calling

“I love to watch the Masons squirm.” – Noted late Drosophila expert

Keep digging, Ginny.

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