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Michigan Vaccine Freedom Political Action Committee: Promoting antivaccine policies in my state

A childhood friend of mine, who is running for office, forwarded me a questionnaire from the Michigan Vaccine Freedom Political Action Committee. It consisted of questions about whether she would support vaccine “choice” and “freedom.” Unfortunately, antivaccine advocacy groups are becoming more influential. Now they’re trying to lobby like any other lobbying group.

Another election year, another primary season. Yes, primary season for the 2018 midterm elections is in full swing. Here in Michigan, we have a rather late primary (this year it’s August 7); so in reality the primary season is only just gearing up. Unfortunately, these days, whenever there’s a significant election, there are antivaccine activists trying to elect antivaccine (or at least antivaccine-adjacent or antivaccine-sympathetic) legislators, and this year is no different in Michigan. Yes, it’s another election year and the Michigan Vaccine Freedom Political Action Committee (MVFPAC), as well as other antivaccine groups, are showing signs of being busier than ever this year.

Why, you might ask, am I writing about this now? Simple. A childhood friend of mine, Mindy Denniger, is running for the Michigan House of Representatives. Sadly, she doesn’t live in my district, which means that I can’t vote for her. She’s very pro-vaccine, and my current state representation is most definitely not. In fact, it’s because she is pro-vaccine that she sent me a copy of a candidate questionnaire that she recently received. Before I get to that, let’s look at why I might be less than happy about the current state of support for vaccines in the Michigan state legislature, making it receptive to pitches by antivaxers, even Del Bigtree and the crew that made an antivaccine propaganda film VAXXED.

You might recall that I’ve written before about the—shall we say?—less than pro-vaccine attitudes of my current state representation. For example, my current State Senator is Patrick Colbeck. I’ve written about him a few times over the last few years, first noting that, if he wasn’t actually antivaccine, he was at least antivaccine-sympathetic to the point of posting on his Facebook page how he was going to attend a screening of an antivaccine propaganda film in his district. Then, about a year ago, he was one of the co-sponsors in the Michigan Senate for SB 299 and SB 300, two bills that, if passed, would have made measles great again by eliminating a recently instated requirement by the Michigan Department of Health and Human Services (MDHHS) that parents seeking personal belief exemptions to school vaccine mandates must first travel to their county health department for educational instruction on vaccines and the diseases they prevent. Also, MDHHS had changed the rules so that schools could only accept the state-sanctioned exemption form, which included a statement that, by signing the form, parents acknowledged that they are putting their children and others at increased risk of serious illness. Not only that, but the bills would have barred MDHHS from promulgating any rules like this in the future without a new law. But that’s not all. The bills would also have barred local health officials from keeping unvaccinated children out of school in the event of an outbreak of vaccine-preventable disease. They would have had to seek permission from MDHHS.

Truly, I wasn’t exaggerating when I wrote that Sen. Colbeck tried to make measles great again, noting that the MDHHS took action because of Michigan’s abysmal vaccine uptake rates that have lead to outbreaks, particularly a large pertussis outbreak in 2012, out of which was born a campaign by a mother whose baby died of pertussis to increase vaccine uptake. There have also been measles outbreaks.

But what about my State Representative, Jeff Noble? Yes, he co-sponsored the house versions of these bills, HB 4425 and HB 4426! Also, when my wife and I wrote to him to express our concern about how public health-unfriendly these bills were, he painted his support for the bill as reining in an overweaning bureaucracy that had “overstepped its boundaries” and basically told us, thanks for contacting his office, but bugger off. Still, of the two, Rep. Noble is probably the least bad. Of late, Sen. Colbeck, being term-limited this year, decided to run for governor, and in the process has really let his antivaccine freak flag fly, while showing that he is a victim of, if you’ll excuse the term, crank magnetism when he expressed alarm about “electromagnetic hypersensitivity” and his support for bills to do something about it. Even worse, he’s shown himself to be a racist bigot when he attacked a Democratic candidate for governor, Abdul El-Sayed, as having ties to the Muslim Brotherhood (based on his parents), alleging that he’s part of a “civilization jihad” plot by Muslims to “change our system of government” in America by implementing Sharia law. It was so bad that even the Detroit house organ of the Michigan Republican Party, the Detroit News, strongly criticized Colbeck for his rant, while Michigan Democratic Party Chairman Brandon Dillon called him a “bigoted fool,” which is accurate. Colbeck, unsurprisingly, doubled down and issued a disingenuous press release.

You can see why I feel…underrepresented…at present and why I particularly dislike Patrick Colbeck. Also, the MDHSS requirements are working. Personal belief exemption (PBE) rates are declining and vaccine uptake is increasing.

But back to the antivaxers. As you know, many groups send candidates questionnaires on the issues, asking for their responses and positions. My friend Mindy got one, and it came from MVFPAC. Here’s the cover letter:

Michigan Vaccine Freedom Political Action Committee
Michigan Vaccine Freedom Political Action Committee

I’m going to stop right here in order to address the claim that the MDHHS somehow “overstepped its bounds.” It did not. The way things work in Michigan, regulatory agencies draft rules, and such proposed rules must be approved by the Joint Committee on Administrative Rules, a bipartisan legislative committee charged with the legislative oversight of administrative rules proposed by state agencies. Basically, JCAR reviews state agency regulations and, if it takes no action, allows them to go into effect after 15 legislative days. The committee is composed of lawmakers, giving it a legislative imprimatur, but it is not the Legislature itself, thus avoiding the political rancor that can accompany debate on controversial issues. Antivaccinationists have described this as a “stealth move,” but it was entirely legal. Yet, antivaccine groups relentlessly try to portray MDHHS as having overstepped its legal authority in instituting its rule. Jeff Noble parroted that line. So did Patrick Colbeck. So does MVFPAC.

Let’s take a look at the questions. Here’s question #1:

Michigan is one of seventeen states that allows [sic] a philosophical exemption for vaccinations for children entering daycare and school. Thousands of parents have expressed how grateful they are to live in a state where parents have the freedom to make the decision whether or not, or how, to vaccinate their children. They know how precious health care rights are, and want to know who in the legislature they can count on to preserve their rights.

I support an individual’s/parent’s right to make vaccine decisions for themselves and their children.

Note the framing. Note the intentionally misleading way that the problem is stated that make it very hard not to answer yes without sounding like a fascist. As they say, subtlety is not these people’s strength. I would not have accepted their framing and answered, “I support school vaccine mandates.”

Next up, question #2:

Michigan law provides a clear, simple process for citizens to exercise their choice to exempt from vaccine mandates. However, the State Department of Health and Human Services has exceeded state law by issuing a mandate requiring parents to meet personally with employees of county health departments before granted [sic] a vaccine waver for their child to attend school of daycare. These in-person meetings are not required by state law but rather imposed by administrative rules. Our members find these mandated meetings to be a substantial burden and many department employees to be demeaning of their vaccine decisions Parents are forced to provide private health information about their child without their consent, which violates privacy rights they have through federal privacy laws (FERPA). Michigan Vaccine Freedom PAC supports legislation that protects the privacy of children’s student health records and prohibits unelected government agencies from exceeding state statues with regard to vaccine exemptions.

a) I support requiring legislative approval before unelected state or local agencies can add additional burdens on parents or individuals seeking to exercise their vaccine waiver rights.

b) I would sponsor or cosponsor legislation prohibiting unelected state or local agencies form imposing any additional burdens on individuals or parents seeking to exercise their vaccine waiver rights.

Note the super loaded, super slanted language again. This is a recurring tactic.

I’ve already explained why antivaxers’ claim that MDHSS somehow exceeded its authority by imposing the requirement that parents seeking PBEs go to their county health department for education. I also highly doubt that the employees there are so very, very disrespectful to such parents. The reason, of course, is that antivaxers tend to equate criticism of their beliefs or even don’t show what they consider to be sufficient deference to their views. Indeed, I have little doubt that just having to go to the county health center colors antivaxers’ perception such that basically anything said to them is perceived as disrespect.

But what is FERPA? In brief, it’s the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act, a federal law that protects the privacy of student education records. It applies to all schools that receive federal funds. The law gives parents certain rights, such as the right to inspect and review the student’s education records maintained by the school and the right to request that a school correct records which they believe to be inaccurate or misleading.FERPA also protects privacy by requiring that schools have written permission from the parent or eligible student in order to release any information from a student’s education record. There are exceptions, however, such as for financial aid evaluation, law enforcement. Immunization records kept by the school fall under FERPA.

Now, I’m not a lawyer (obviously), but I’m not seeing what the relevance is here. From reading a bit, basically, the schools appear not to be allowed to disclose to health departments immunization records, but health departments are not under the act. In any case, MDHSS is charged with overseeing the issuing of personal belief exemptions. Existing policy doesn’t require parents to tell the health department anything other than that they are requesting a PBE waiver. So what do antivaxers mean by Michigan policy violating FERPA? It took some digging, but I found this testimony, which includes a marked up copy of the Michigan vaccine waiver form at the end. There, circled, is an instruction for the school to file the exemption in the child’s permanent record and to send a copy to the health department. Next to it is markup that says “This instructs schools to violate FERPA.”

No it doesn’t, at least not as far as I can tell. Look above that line. There is a line for a signature from the local health department. State and local health departments are not covered by FERPA, and the local health department already knows that the parents attended vaccine educations class. I suppose the state could eliminate even this highly dubious objection by copying the form itself. Personally, I hae to wonder why, if MVFPAC thinks that their claim that MDHHS policy is violating FERPA is so clear, it hasn’t filed suit. At least, if anyone has, I haven’t heard about it or been able to find any information about it. Also, that’s not what the form says, anyway. The form seems to be saying that the meetings with county health officials in order to obtain a PBE violate FERPA. That doesn’t sound correct, given that the health department isn’t covered by FERPA.

Oh, well, I’m sure some lawyer somewhere will tell me if I’m too far off base.

Finally, question #3:

Some employers and educational institutions discriminate against citizens who exercise their vaccine exemption rights by denying services and/or employment for something as simple as declining a flu shot. Michigan Vaccine Freedom PAC supports legislation that would prohibit any institution that receives taxpayer funding from engaging in such discrimination.

a) I support legislation that prohibits tax-funded institutions from discriminating against individuals who exercise vaccine choice.

b) I would sponsor or cosponsor legislation that prohibits tax-funded institutions from discriminating against individuals who exercise vaccine choice.

Yes, antivaxers really, really, really hate vaccine mandates for healthcare workers. So it’s not surprising that this question would be on their candidate form.

Sadly, as election season in Michigan cranks into full gear, I expect more activity from our local antivaccine activists, like MVPPAC and its sister antivax advocacy group, Michigan for Vaccine Choice. If you just peruse the MVC site, you’ll find a slick website, full of helpful antivaccine propaganda and tactics for influencing legislators. For instance:

Attend Legislative Coffee Hours
You’re invited to meet with legislators each month right in your own community. It’s a great way to get to know your legislator and like-minded citizens, while sharing the importance of vaccine choice. When you join MVC, we’ll pair you with a legislative liaison in your district.

Do we provaccine advocates have anything like this? Not to the same extent. Not even close.

I’ve commented several times about how antivaccine views are held by people across the political spectrum but of late the loudest and most influential people promoting antivaccine pseudoscience and policies are on the right. the reason is because antivaxers have co-opted freedom, personal rights, and parental rights as being aligned with their view that there should be no vaccine mandates of any kind. Antivaxers have come to realize that appealing to “rights” and “freedom” is a winning message that gets small government conservatives fired up, even if they are not antivaccine.

It’s happening in Texas, and it’s happening in Michigan, albeit not (yet) to the same extent.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

255 replies on “Michigan Vaccine Freedom Political Action Committee: Promoting antivaccine policies in my state”

There was an old axiom that any country with the word “Democratic” in its name wasn’t. I think we need a similar expression for political movements with the word “freedom” in theirs.

I saw a news item yesterday about the Canadian Border Service planning on sending reinforcements to Quebec for an expected summer influx of refugees from the USA.

Next will we have to send people to the border with Michigan to set up quarantine camps?

Immigrant communities are generally vaccinated. They come from countries where preventable diseases run roughshod over them. They practically break the door down seeking vaccines there, and when they get here.

The thing with the Somalian community is a fluke engineered by anti vaxers who took advantage and scared the crap out of Somali-American parents who are second and third generation, and never saw what happens when a kid gets a preventable disease like measles.

We don’t need to worry about people fleeing ICE to Canada bringing diseases with them.

Actually, many of the parents were first generation and some had lost family members to measles. The anti-vax groups basically told them that since measles isn’t prevalent in the US, there was no risk in skipping the MMR.

That’s news. What I read of news reports was that the first generation parents got their kids immunized, and it was the 2nd and 3rd gen parents who got frightened by a supposed rise in autism rates in their community, and the anti vax nuts took advantage of it.

Do you have a source that the 1st gen parents were told they could skip the MMR by anti vaxxers? Because that doesn’t make a lot of sense–this community has been around for a couple of decades at least.

I have some minor good news for you, then. The Ohio Legislature has introduced a bill similar to Michigan’s, to require parents who request PBE’s to see their care care provider and be educated on vaccines before a PBE can be granted. The law also will standardize how schools (including preschools, not just public schools) maintain their records and transmit them to the state. It will require the state to keep track of how many students are not immunized because of a religious waiver/PBE. This information is to be published (and specifically states identifying information cannot be included).

The part of the form to be signed by the health care provider has to be an MD, DO, PA, APRN, or RN (health department only), or the pharmacist if they actually give the vaccine. Naturopaths are not licensed in Ohio, but I just saw on Britt Hermes blog that they are going to push the Legislature to license them. I’m going to have to keep an eye on that one. If a bill actually gets introduced, I will have to make time to go to the public comment period and testify against it.

It’s not as good as your law in Michigan, but it’s a step in the right direction, and the AAP supports it. A friend of mine is a family practice resident and testified in support of the bill. He told me the anti-vaxxers were all lined up in the front row of the gallery behind him, glaring daggers at his back.

It’s still in committee, sent there to die. Hospitals and physicians groups all oppose it, and they have a lot of juice in our state. The OAAPN didn’t think it would pass, and it looks like they’re right.

Our hospitals are filled with flu during flu season. All it would take is one unvaccinated employee to create a major problem in a local community. It would have been a disaster in this past years season.

We can ignore the questionnaire. On this subject I felt like I wanted to send a message back to them to indicate that I am opposed to their very purpose, but then I had the idea to forward it to Orac. As a candidate I get many questionnaires like this that are meant to influence me.

Sometimes there is a consequence implied: “If you choose not to return a questionnaire, you may be assigned a ? rating, which can be interpreted by our membership as indifference, if not outright hostility, toward Second Amendment-related issues.” You can guess where that one came from.

Ms. Denninger, I understand your position although it seems to me that acknowledging their questionnaire gives them some validity as if their position is actually a thing. There is certainly something to be said about proudly wearing your “F rating” though. Best of luck to you.

I, too, like Mindy’s attitude. On the other hand, as I wrote this and thought about it, one thing that started to concern me is that by answering the questions one basically accepts MVFPAC’s framing of the issues without pushback. In retrospect (easy for me to say now), I would have recommended writing out an answer, rejecting the framing of the question as an issue of freedom and a “no” answer as a rejection of that freedom. For instance, a good answer to question #1 would have been simply, “I support Michigan’s current school vaccine requirements to protect our children from serious infectious diseases and would seek to strengthen them.” That would also be a good answer to question #2 as well.

As for question #3, one might turn the issue back on MVFPAC, given that MVFPAC and nearly all “vaccine freedom” groups at this point tend to lean anti-regulatory conservative. What I might say is something like, “I support the right of private entities like hospitals to be free to institute policies designed to protect their staff and patients from a serious infectious disease.” If I were snarky, I might make a crack about MVFPAC supporting government intrusion in the affairs of private health care facilities.

Ah, well. These ideas frequently come to me too late…


blockquote>In retrospect (easy for me to say now), I would have recommended writing out an answer, rejecting the framing of the question as an issue of freedom and a “no” answer as a rejection of that freedom. </blockquote.
Brilliant idea, I second that approach.

There has been a state lawsuit against the department’s rules, though it didn’t focus on FERPA. I haven’t heard abound it in a while, and state lawsuits in another state aren’t always easy to track, but I suspect it didn’t go anywhere, again countering the point about the rules being illegal.

The sixth circuit also upheld them.

For what it’s worth I agree with what you said about FERPA here. It doesn’t cover health department and if the health department already has the form or signed it, it’s not even disclosing much.

One other way around this is for the department to not just keep the form but ask parents to declare the school, and then just get aggregated information from schools and check that the numbers match.

The anti-vaccine activists are good at what they are trying to do. The incumbent that I am challenging, John Reilly HD 46, introduced HB 5163 and the MVC advocacy for it is well done: There wouldn’t have to be a pro-vaccine equivalent if these groups weren’t finding willing champions in the legislature…

Lovely. They’ve resurrected HB 4425 and 4426 in another form. They were bills designed, as I put it a year ago, to make measles great again in Michigan. Unfortunately, my representative, Jeff Noble, was a co-sponsor. I see he’s also a co-sponsor of HB 5162 and HB5163. Here’s the longer version of the post I did about HB 4425/6 a year ago:

So much stupid in two little bills.

I’m coming to detest Rep. Jeff Noble almost as much as I detest Sen. Colbeck.

Well, you can be fairly certain this biased “survey” will spread to other state-based groups of AVers within the year. My state was supposed to roll out something similar to Michigan with regards to vaccine exemptions 1-2 years ago, but for reasons unknown, it has not happened.

@ Panacea May 18, 2018 at 8:21 am

Immigrant communities are generally vaccinated.

I was not worry about Immigrant communities in the USA. My, slightly sarcastic, remark was meant to imply US citizens from Michigan will need to be quarantined.

Or we could just insist of proof of vaccination for any US resident entering? /sarc

We don’t quarantine refugees under normal circumstances. We, certainly, did not quarantine Somali refugees in Manitoba.

Yes, but as soon as it’s born, it’s the possesion of the parents, who are free to deal with it how they want, including skipping vaccines or not giving proper medical threatment to it, if it is ill.

Bill Gates told [Trump] that [the vaccine commission] was a bad idea and for some reason he decided to listen.

Gates is richer than Kennedy. Case closed.

OTOH, that our president can’t understand that HPV and HIV are different is at least indicative of his general comprehension of vaccine-relate issues.

Also OTOH, recall that avoiding STDs was Trump’s “personal Viet Nam.” Yeah.

Good grief, that’s as slanted as the “surveys” my husband keeps getting from the GOP. (Still haven’t figured out what he did to get on the mailing list.)

When AVers complain about vaccination requirements for healthcare workers I really want to ask how they feel about the rules about food service workers not being allowed (supposed) to work while sick with GI illness (like norovirus). Or, say, hepatitis A.

Still haven’t figured out what he did to get on the mailing list.

Jews for Jesus hounded me for years.

Simple: If you are a food worker with norovirus, Hep A or other GI illness you are expected to stay home and starve, not to get vaccinated for Rotovirus or Hep A.

Maybe that’s what hospitals will be forced to do to encourage vaccination: establish policies that if you get an upper respiratory infection, you will be replaced with a contract worker for a set number of days and you have to use your PTO if you want a paycheck that week.

@ foolish physicist:

That gives anti-vaxxers and woo-pushers another reason to hate Gates.
I’m sure we’ll hear about it.

( The part of the article about Trump’s lack of knowledge about hiv / hpv is even more frightening and unbelievable: he lived in NYC during the early days of the aids crisis- he should at least know what hiv is )

It’s not like Trump is going to lose their votes unless someone more AV is running.

It seems that Jake Crosby is already carping about Gates. ( see autism investigated blog)

It seems that Jake Crosby is already carping about Gates.

Although I wondered why Jacob L. Crosby, MPH, was dismissed from his Ph.D. program, perhaps this provides a clue: Crosby’s latest misguided efforts demonstate that he cannot understand a scientific article and that, accordingly, he supports Andrew Wakefield’s baldfaced lies so that Crosby repeatedly doxxed a family that has told the truth:



“Truly, I wasn’t exaggerating when I wrote that Sen. Colbeck tried to make measles great again, noting that the MDHHS took action because of Michigan’s abysmal vaccine uptake rates that have lead to outbreaks, particularly a large pertussis outbreak in 2012, out of which was born a campaign by a mother whose baby died of pertussis to increase vaccine uptake.”

You fail to mention that the acellular pertussis vaccine may have contributed to the death of this baby.
As you should know, the acellular pertussis vaccine does not prevent transmission. It does not produce mucosal immunity. Vaccine recipients can get colonized later with B.pertussis, carry and SPREAD the disease while being asymptomatic. Herd spreading, the exact opposite of herd immunity. So this baby could have been infected by a colonized asymptomatic spreader vaccinated with the acellular pertussis vaccine. Why did you leave that out?

Why did you leave out that unvaccinated are more likely to spread disease? In spite of the flaws of the pertussis vaccine, it has reduced disease and death. Wild-type disease also does not produce very long-lasting immunity so what is your alternative?

The Ohio proposed law to improve tracking of school vaccination rates and to require parents considering “personal belief” exemptions to first meet with a health care professional is House Bill 559.

“Organizations lending their support include: Parents for Advocating for Vaccines (PA4V), Every Child by Two, American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, The National Meningitis Association, National Organization for Rare Disorders, Voice for Children, Ohio State Medical Association, Ohio Children’s Hospital Association, Association of Ohio Health Commissioners, Ohio Chapter of the National Association of Pediatric Nurse Practitioners, The Academy of Medicine of Cleveland and Northern Ohio and Immunize Ohio.”

The opposition is exemplified by this deceptively-named “health freedom” group:

I just e-mailed my state representative to urge his support for the bill.

Since the local paper ran an op-ed by a public health nurse last week praising the bill, I expect the “health freedom” lobby to be demanding equal time to spread their nonsense.

The NVIC advocacy facebook page is all over this. Sadly, when they put out the call, a large number of frothing-at-the-mouth anti-vaxxers will harass state legislators who can’t seem to figure out almost all the calls are from out-of-state/out-of-district people.

Oooh. Good idea. I’ll have to write to my local papers on this.

But yeah, my FP resident friend who testified in favor of the bill last week said the anti vaxxers were front and center at the hearing.

Many thanks to your friend who testified. I called and wrote my rep, too.

[…] the anti vaxxers were front and center at the hearing.

Was one of them Rep Christina Hagan, who sponsored the “you can’t punish healthcare employees for refusing the ‘flu vaccine” bill? Fortunately that one seems to have stalled, if not died outright, in committee, but it was somewhat disquieting to see the number of co-sponsors relative to this current, more thoughtful approach.

I just spent my insomnia hours trying to argue “I’m not antivax, I’m too-many-too-soon antivax” and “Don’t do the Corporate Evil Poison but I’m not antivax” people out of those positions in a facebook group. It’s exhausting. I should have tried going back to bed after the first round. But I digress. Why is it that people can legislate their way into epidemics ? Are you sure this isn’t a front for Big Funeral ? Big Palliative care ? Are you sure these people aren’t lobbying on behalf of hospital and sickroom suppliers ? It’s a conspiracy I tells ya!

Until you admit and fix the root cause – horribly unsafe vaccines – your choice is between legislating your way into vaccine preventable disease epidemics or legislating your way into vaccine-induced non-communicable disease (allergy, asthma, autism, autoimmunity) epidemics. Fix the vaccines for win-win, otherwise it is a no-win situation.

The root cause is a the epidemic of Dunning-Krueger Disease, for which there is no vaccine available.

Research into a cure is ongoing. We haven’t figured out how to keep the mice from laughing themselves to death long enough to test proposed treatments.

“The root cause is a the epidemic of Dunning-Krueger Disease, for which there is no vaccine available.”

Engineers seem to be particularly susceptible to it. That may be a potential avenue of exploration.

Tell us what constitutes a “safe vaccine”. Your ilk have done nothing but squeal about “unsafe vaccines” for three decades now, but I’ve never seen a single one of you define a “safe vaccine”.

“… but I’ve never seen a single one of you define a “safe vaccine”.”

Oh, boy! You have obviously missed the bit about “relative risk.” We all acknowledge that the smallpox vaccine was dangerous, but at least it did not have a kill rate of 30% like the actual disease.

Before we can answer your “question” you must provide us some guidelines to start from. Just provide us the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the actual disease.

Go for it. Be specific. Choose a vaccine and provide the PubMed links.

Point taken. I stand corrected. It was a reflex reaction.

Blanket statements are never productive when dealing with complex systems. Biology is nothing but complex systems. Which the anti-vax but pro-disease seem to miss.

Thank you for catching my mistake.

Blanket statements are never productive when dealing with complex systems.

Mass-energy equivalence seems to be holding up well.

We mean “safe” in the same context as we would describe other interventions or activities as “safe”, namely that they have a tiny risk of significant adverse effects and in common usage are extremely unlikely to result in any significant harm.
Think other items or activities…
Is riding a bike “safe”? (yes, , generally so, but vaccines are several orders of magnitude “safer”)
Is drinking water “safe”?

You get the idea.

But what about the evil magic fairies? Shouldn’t we fix that while we’re at it? Don’t you have an open mind?

“Engineers seem to be particularly susceptible to it.”
Just look how many terrorists are engineers.

Man Called True above was referencing the antivax trope that all they want is a safe vaccine, and asking the person who said it to provide a definition of a safe vaccine.

I now acknowledge that I made an error. Thank you for pointing out my reflex reaction.

I would now want evidence that many terrorists are engineers.

i understand the Dunning-Kruger bit, but I am at at a loss at “terrorist.” Explain.

” Just provide us the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the actual disease.”

1) In the current “science environment”, anyone who shows vaccines cause more harm than the actual disease is defined as an unreputable unqualified researcher.
2) Disease vs. vaccine harm only applies during an epidemic. After decades of vaccine use, this is the wrong question. If the odds of dying in an air crash hits 1 in 20 million would you disband the NTSB? We need continuous ongoing safety upgrades. Aircraft or vaccines.
3) After the Pandemrix induced narcolepsy disaster, why has no one looked at EVERY vaccine for the same type of problem?
4) You CANNOT ignore absolute risk.
5) Using “tricky statistics” is not reputable.
Dr. Cunningham in the BMJ:
Tricky statistics, vaccine hesitancy, and vaccine safety

I’m more than a little tired of this conspiracy-mongering. I’m not super-sympathetic to the drug manufacturers, to put it mildly, but there is no serious evidence of a conspiracy or ideology that hides serious reports of vaccine harm.

The risk of dying by lightening strike or shark attack appears to be much greater than risk from most vaccines. Also no-one here has suggested there should be no oversight in manufacture and distribution of vaccines.

Mass vaccinations make epidemics far less likely. You cannot tally cost-benefit only by looking at epidemics, because you won’t be counting the dozens, hundreds, or thousands of epidemics that don’t get off the ground because of mass vaccination. I am safer and my community is safer due to vaccines. Your crazy ideology threatens my community.

Your claims are similar to claims of evil magic fairies, and only slightly more facially plausible.

Vinu said: “If the odds of dying in an air crash hits 1 in 20 million would you disband the NTSB? We need continuous ongoing safety upgrades.”
So, if a ‘researcher’ named Univ Mahgumura wrote a letter to the editor noting that flying unicorns have insufficient reflective surface to show up on airport radar, the NTSB should divert resources to the issue, STAT?
I can think of no plausible reason not to act immediately – public safety is at risk!*
*This statement may be true in some alternate realities.

Oh, the logical fail. Where to begin.

No one has ever shown vaccines cause more harm than the actual disease. In fact, they are next to no harm as serious side effects are actually very rare. Since your first premise begins with a false start, that fact takes away any foundation for your subsequent claims.
Harm or the potential for harm is not relegated to only during an epidemic. The point is PREVENTION; we want to avoid the epidemic in the first place. Since vaccines don’t actually cause harm, your point 2 point is irrelevant. And vaccines DO constantly go through a continuous quality improvement process.
Because the problem with Pandemrix was related to a specific protein in the H1N1 virus itself. Since only flu vaccines would contain H1N1, looking at every other type of vaccines would be a colossal waste of time, money, and effort to chase a ghost. The issue with Pandemrix was recognized quickly, and the vaccine withdrawn. 1300 people were affected by this problem. 12,500 people died of H1N1 influenza. The costs vs the benefits are clear; vaccines are still safer and more effective than getting the disease. Remember, no one has ever said serious side effects don’t happen. They do. They simply are not a reason to abandon this incredibly useful tool for disease prevention. Ironically, this incident may be opening new doors to a cure for narcolepsy, because we now know more about how the brain is affected.
I don’t think anyone is ignoring absolute risk. However, risk can never be 100% eliminated, and that’s what you’re asking for. It won’t happen. There’s always a risk I will breathe in something dangerous to me, yet no one suggests I quit breathing.
A letter to the editor is not proof that pharmaceutical companies are using “tricky statistics.” If you have a beef with a study, refute it. Show me where the statistics are actually “tricky” and be prepared to defend that stance. Don’t say, “hey this guy agrees with me and he’s a doctor” to prove that the medical literature as a whole is flawed.

I would add to the excellent points above:
A. The claim that anyone who shows vaccines cause more harm than the disease is labeled as anything is clearly wrong. Most vaccines never make it out of testing, sometimes – not always – because exactly that is shown. And note the quick reaction to the Dengue vaccine in the Philippines – and as you point out, narcolepsy was shown. Those that are criticized are those making false or unsupported claims of harm, or who do shoddy, sometimes suspect (note the Shaw image manipulation) in service of such claims. In those cases, criticism is appropriate.

B. I’m not sure why the speaker thinks other vaccines were not examined for Narcolepsy. “In response to the events in Europe, CDC reviewed data from the U.S. Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) and the Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) and found no indication of any association between U.S.-licensed H1N1 or seasonal influenza vaccine and narcolepsy.

In 2014, CDC published a study on the association between 2009 H1N1 influenza vaccines, 2010/2011 seasonal influenza vaccines, and narcolepsy. The analysis included more than 650,000 people who received the pandemic flu vaccine in 2009 and over 870,000 people who received the seasonal flu vaccine in 2010/2011. The study found that vaccination was not associated with an increased risk for narcolepsy.”

They are speculating using an unproven mathematical model.

Real evidence shows that the vaccinated are getting colonized.

Prevalence of asymptomatic Bordetella pertussis and Bordetella parapertussis infections among school children in China as determined by pooled real-time PCR: a cross-sectional study.

The potential role of subclinical Bordetella Pertussis colonization in the etiology of multiple sclerosis.

And by the way, why is this question coming up almost 20 years after the introduction of the acellular pertussis vaccine?
Because the INCOMPETENT FDA ASSUMED that acellular pertussis vaccine prevented transmission, with ZERO evidence.
The CDC ACIP ASSUMED that the menigococcal vaccine will prevent disease for 10 years. Wrong again.
The FDA/CDC ASSUMED that the MMR vaccine will provide lifelong protection. Wrong again. From 1 to 2 and now 3 doses of MMR.

There is no science here. It is a massive bloody fraud.

There is also extensive evidence that high rates of pertussis vaccines reduce the risks of outbreaks –

Association between vaccine refusal and vaccine-preventable dis- eases in the United States: a review of measles and pertussis. Phadke VK, Bednaraczyk RA, Salmon DA, Omer SB. JAMA 2016; 315(11): 1149-1158.

Religious exemptions for immunization and risk of pertussis in New York state, 2000–2011. Imdad A, Tserenpuntsag B, Blog DS, Halsey NA, Easton DE, Shaw J. Pediatrics 2013;132(1):37-43.

Geographic clustering of nonmedical exemptions to school immunization requirements and associations with geographic clustering of pertussis. Omer SB, Enger KS, Moulton LH, Halsey NA, Stokley S, Salmon DA. Am J Epidemiol 2008;168:1389–96.

And so forth. And that pertussis vaccination reduces transmission to babies.

Not knowing everything at one point is not actually the same as incompetence. I understand you think scientists should know everything at once, but people who actually do research work from data, and depend on that. They don’t make it up. I recommend adopting that attitude, at least in these areas.

More logical fail. Did you even read the actual articles?

Yes, the first study does suggest that children in China often have asymptomatic B. Pertussis infections. The study doesn’t say all, and saying the children are colonized may be a stretch, but even so it doens’t mean we should stop vaccinating children. If anything, it’s an argument for a booster shot. The point is, we avoid a lot of whooping cough cases with vaccination. We use the acellular vaccine because it has fewer side effects. We could always go back to whole cell vaccines, but no one wants to do that because the acellular ones have fewer problems, and still do a very good job of controlling pertussis. You’ve offered no proof the vaccine causes actual harm.

Did you note that the authors of the second article you cite are VACCINE DEVELOPERS? Their citations are horribly out of date for an article published in 2015. At best, they get to correlation with MS. They don’t get anywhere near causation.

That MMR vaccination may not be life long is not a reason to stop vaccinating against it. Many people DO develop life long immunity (I happen to be one of them, as I got a titer for school due to lost records that shows I am still immune). The number of shots has nothing to do with how long the immunity lasts. We give three shots because that’s how many it takes to produce immunity in the highest percentage of the population. That we have to do this is not an argument against vaccination, nor is it a proof of harm.

You misunderstand the difference between colonization and transmission. It could be that happens. It’s not an argument against vaccination. It might be that immunity doesn’t last as long as we thought it would. That doesn’t make it fraud, it makes them wrong. It is an argument for booster shots, nothing more.

Wipe your chin.

They are speculating using an unproven mathematical model.

You’re not a mathemician, and I frankly doubt that you can even understand what underlies SEIR (and related) models. You’re a fucking router grunt. With a hilariously bad AI project in your back pocket.

Oh for goodness sake, are you TSA from SBM too? At least I already have an answer for this one: show me the outbreaks of pertussis in full-vaccinated non-traveling populations and I’ll start to consider your position. And not just one outbreak but several, in different countries.

You won’t, because you can’t, because there is very, very, very little evidence that those few Chinese children were actually contagious. But it won’t stop you from posting again and again.

“Engineers seem to be particularly susceptible to it.”
Just look how many terrorists are engineers.

It is something that has been remarked on several times and there appears to be at least one formal study on the issue

The same phenomenon has been remarked about climate deniers. There seems to be a disproportionate number of engineers in the denier ranks compared to, say scientists. As far as I am aware this is all anecdotal but it is rather striking.

It’s because, if you want something done effectively, you ask an engineer to do it. A kind of survivor bias (heh). Proportionally the terrorist engineers are more successful than non-engineers so the group of terrorists that become notorious are biased towards engineers.😎 😁

I’ll go with that, even though I find it repulsive.

Then again I find many engineers who have turned into “health warriors” repulsive. That includes Gary Taubes, Brian Hooker, Gary Goldman, the “Food Babe” and many others.

Be very pleased that so few engineers are terrorists. If the IRA and their like had included more then life in London in the 80s would have been even worse.

And I must point out that that in 40+ years of work as an engineer I’ve met a single other engineer that claimed to be a creationist. But even there he was a CS grad and therefore pretty marginally an engineer. As for antivaxxers, I can count the number I’ve met of any stripe on one hand. Perhaps I’ve just managed to live smarter places?

As someone with some Engineering training, I can suggest that it is because Engineers tend toward binary solutions — a thing is either right or wrong, it works or it does not. This leads many to think that since they’re right about things found in Machinery’s Handbook or the Merck Manual, that they must have infallible intuition. The effects can be disastrous. Me, I have the fortune of having studied Engineering, Psychology, Medicine, Law and History. Not formally in all cases, but a smattering here and there. I also managed to absorb enough of the scientific method that when I’m wrong about something I admit it and correct my mistake.

Also, they get some scientific training as they go – they have to know about science. They tend to work in the private sector for relatively high pay. It’s the social, always the social. Engineers – who as a group, probably support woo less than in the general population but more than scientists – have many factors reinforcing a certain kind of arrogance. Most importantly I think we need to avoid suggestions that engineers have some particular ‘type’ that is woo-susceptible relative to scientists. None have been made here, today, but I’ve seen it before.

“As someone with some Engineering training, I can suggest that it is because Engineers tend toward binary solutions — a thing is either right or wrong, it works or it does not.”

That seems like a good explanation. Thank you.

“I can suggest that it is because Engineers tend toward binary solutions…”

When I worked the results were never binary. I could only give probabilities, because there were too many variables that were interacting. Yes, I had frustrating conversations with fellow engineers who did not like that random vibration were actually random. They had certain repeatable characteristics, but there was always a chance that something would go wrong.

“I also managed to absorb enough of the scientific method that when I’m wrong about something I admit it and correct my mistake.”


An engineers answer is often “It depends. Please define your question more precisely”. Or, occasionally, ‘I cannae break the laws of physics, Capn’.

I wish liberals and leftists, and more generally reality-based community members would re-assume their former rhetoric as champions of freedom. My freedom to live in a safe community – what of that? My freedom to go to a hospital and not be subjected to completely unnecessary health risks – what of that?

Let’s give the right-wingers what they want – choice. We can have two classes of schools, ones with vaccine mandates, one without – let parents choose. We can have two classes of health-care workers, ones that require routine vaccination, and ones that don’t – let consumers choose. Be up-front of course: “In our school, vaccines are distrusted, so not required. By the way, we have no liability if your child comes down with an allegedly vaccine-preventable illness.” Let the market decide!

I’m only half-joking. I’m predicting, I’m sure it’s clear, that this system would be a disaster, and a major political setback to ‘freedom’-based anti-vaccine arguments.

Oh, in whom should I put my trust**

Whilst SBM advocates / sceptics bemoan the spread of antivax in the political arena, anti-vaxxers currently are shrieking about how social media is shutting them down.

In fact, Tim Bolen ( Bolen Report, this past week**) has *two articles about the “collapse” of the anti-vax movement because of facebook and you-tube limitations.

How will they communicate their drivel and share their “science” now?****
FaceBook has partnered with Snopes and You Tube with Wikip—.

If you follow the loon faction as I do, you’ll find that Mike Adams is so freaked out about You Tube’s actions that he’s starting his own (shoddy, ad fuelled, amazon-wannabe) equivalent in July. Null’s has undertaken the VAST task of exposing SBM and its chief provocateurs’ ( Orac, amongst them) lack of comprehension of REAL Science ™ which is exemplified by energy medicine, homeopathy, nutrition and traditional shamanism.

Pardon me while I laugh out loud.

** only joking- SBM/ sceptics, of course
*** I only look at his tripe occasionally – even I have limits.
**** TMR started on facebook.
Bolen has a new method he hints

In fact, Tim Bolen ( Bolen Report, this past week**) has *two articles about the “collapse” of the anti-vax movement because of facebook and you-tube limitations.

Yah, it must be difficult being a complete has-been.

For the same reason we don’t argue with idiotic flat earthers, Vinu: namely if you are so stupid to spout the anti-vaccine nonsense you do, well, there is no reason to waste our ATP and keyboard strokes on you. You’re not here to debate–you’re just here to be a PITA.

These were just a few of the links that came up on the first page of results with a search for “terrorists who are engineers”. One of the articles not cited asked about scientists in the headline and then went on to discuss an “engineering mindset” and engineers. One URL in the results couldn’t be copied.

“but there is no serious evidence of a conspiracy or ideology that hides serious reports of vaccine harm.”

Wake up.

And this vaccine has been approved.

If these vaccines were safe why do manufacturers refuse to perform the appropriate studies?
Wraith et. al have called for autoimmune serology to check vaccine safety.
If their advise had been followed, Pandemrix induced narcolepsy would have been avoided.

Where is the bioinformatics analysis for molecular mimicry?
Dr. Verdier (of Sanofi Pasteur), recommended avoidance of all proteins in vaccines that have molecular mimicry to the host.
Again, Pandemrix induced narcolepsy would have been avoided.

Why did 26 studies on HPV vaccines use a fake placebo (aluminum adjuvant or aluminum adjuvant containing vaccine)?
If the vaccine is safe, showcase it with bulletproof science, why fake it?

Cochrane themselves are currently studying aluminum safety in one study, when allowing it as a placebo in another!
The Bill Gates’ check is working wonders.

New unsafe vaccines will only add to vaccine hesitancy

That is why vaccine safety is an oxymoron.

As you should know, it’s rude to link dump and give homework without doing any synthesis of your own. So I looked at the first of your links. It has a professor of medicine criticizing a drug company and the FDA. So, right, no conspiracy. It’s evidence in favour of what I said, not against. You be a freak, boy.

Wake up.

I find it curious that the original version of this article cited at 14:1 risk rather than the 7:1 in the STAT item, as well as the fact that the actual study isn’t linked to.

Returning to the vinucube’s link, though, one can find the Advisory Committee report. Section helpfully informs one that

“Based on this systematic evaluation, we found myocardial infarctions and MACE outcomes occurred:

“• In persons in whom they would be expected, who had a high burden of cardiovascular risk factors with advanced and often multi-vessel obstructive coronary artery disease;

“• With no evidence by clinical annotations and cardiac catheterization data for inflammatory/immune-mediated vasculitides or myocarditis;

“• With no evidence of a hypercoagulable state based as other venous or arterial thrombotic/thromboembolic events were balanced and;

“• Without close temporal relationship to vaccine administration;

“• At rates in the HEPLISAV-B group that were similar to or lower than background. Based on this comprehensive assessment, the observed numerical difference between treatment groups in the occurrence of events coded to the MedDRA preferred term acute myocardial infarction in HBV-23 is an isolated finding in the HEPLISAV-B database that appears most likely explained by random variation resulting in an unexpectedly low number of events observed in the Engerix-B group in HBV-23.”

Fan-fucking-tastic, Mr. “Wake Up.”

The HBV-23 trial RR for grabbers (6.97) has one terrific CI: 0.92 to 52.97. The combined data from the three trials yield an RR of 3.3, 95% CI 0.76 to 14.36.

Oh, and the first trial showed a protective effect, if one wants to play this game, which I am now officially tired of.

“Before pertussis vaccines became widely available in the 1940s, about 200,000 children got sick with it each year in the United States and about 9,000 died as a result of the infection. Now we see about 10,000 to 40,000 cases reported each year and unfortunately up to 20 deaths.”

So, if pertussis toxin caused MS, there should have been a tremendous decrease in cases since the 1940s owing to vastly lower infection rates (and correspondingly far less exposure to the toxin). Hmm, hasn’t happened.

vinu is right – his “science” (everything is caused by vaccines) is a “bloody fraud”.

Nonsense. Natural pertussis infection (not colonization) does not cause MS. We have evolved for millions of years in that environment. MS would have been naturally selected. MS is a man-made disease now because of widespread colonization due to a lousy vaccine design. MS is dependent on colonization rate, not infection rate.

I know I shouldn’t but I just have to ask:

If pertussis infection is not affecting MS rates, then how on earth could mere colonization do so?

Clearly you don’t know what these words even mean.

What is your definition of the difference between infection and colonization?

Can a person with a wild-type infection become colonized?


Vaccine safety has nothing to do with that.
It is simply a matter of the lack of market forces.

When you buy a car, do you just pick the first one you see at the nearest car dealer? That’s what you do with vaccines. Do you even know the brand of the vaccine you got?
Have you seen a five star review for a vaccine?

If government safety ratings were good enough, why would the IIHS have a safety rating system for cars?

The day you have an IIHS like rating for vaccines, and you choose among vaccine brands based on ratings, vaccines will become a lot safer and will be CONTINUOUSLY IMPROVED, just like cars.

Vaccines are already continuously improved.

Ratings from people who don’t understand how medications are developed tell us nothing about safety.

It is simply a matter of the lack of market forces

If you have to buy the services of OMICS, you’re not doing so well in the marketplace of ideas. Just sayin’.

As a physicist, I state the SNR for your posts approaches 0.

As a physician I find the stupid BS you post repugnant.

Denice would enjoy the latest article on the Imaginary Millions of Health Freedom Fighters website, by sidekick Kent Heckenloony. Kent is mightily impressed by Travis Allen, California assemblyman and Republican candidate for governor. A video is linked and Allen is quoted as follows:

““This whole nonsense about having to give your kid seventy-nine different vaccines to get into school is absolute nonsense. I have legislation coming up about that in a couple weeks.”

I’m a huge opponent of SB 277 and you will see legislation from me during the next week or so about the vaccine situation. [Assembly bills 2832 and 2668] We’re all vaccinated, right? I got like fourteen vaccinations. California’s immunization rate was over 90% before Dr. Pan’s terrible law. Now kids have like seventy-seven vaccines, some of them are nineteen in one day. We don’t know what these vaccines are doing. Autism is now off the charts and they recently found out there’s elevated levels of aluminum in a lot of these kids’ brains. You want to talk about science? I have a scientific problem with that.

We believe in science, but we don’t believe in unproven science. This unproven science of seventy-nine vaccines, or however many are on the list.”

77…79…whatever it is, like wow.

Laugh (or cringe) all you want, Allen is a close third in the latest polls, an insignificant deficit in the race to be one of the top two for the final showdown. Hard to imagine Californians voting for such a dingbat over the front-runner, Gavin Newsome, but weird things have happened, like in 2016…

YES, Dangerous One, I saw that but thought ((SHUDDER)) I’ll let someone else mention it.

I am quite happy that alties are up in arms against Wikip–, facebook, youtube, etc “censoring” them:
If they want advertisement they should have to pay for it like anyone else or run their own websites.

“It’s because, if you want something done effectively, you ask an engineer to do it.”


Drs. Pulendran and Ahmed of the Emory Vaccine Center write⁠:

“Despite their success, one of the great iro-nies of vaccinology is that the vast majority of vaccines have been developed empirically, with little or no understanding of the immunological mechanisms by which they induce protective immunity. However, the failure to develop vaccines against global pandemics such as infection with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) despite decades of effort has underscored the need to understand the immunological mechanisms by which vaccines confer protective immunity.”

Vaccine tinkering needs to stop and be replaced with vaccine ENGINEERING. Parents today face the terrorism of choosing between vaccine-preventable deadly diseases and vaccine-induced deadly diseases or vaccine-induced life-ruining diseases.

Tinkering is a grand engineering tradition. Along with consulting experts when our own knowledge and experience are lacking……

People do not realize that there was a vast difference in the methods employed by Edison versus the Wright brothers. Edison used more of a brute force method (or just slightly improved someone else’s idea).

The Wright brothers on the other hand did real research. This included using small wind tunnels to test foil profiles. Plus they did research others had done in Europe, like Sir George Cayley.

Parents today face the terrorism of choosing between vaccine-preventable deadly diseases and vaccine-induced deadly diseases or vaccine-induced life-ruining diseases.

Jesus Crist, go buy a fucking sandwich board.

You think making a vaccine against HIV is easy? Fine. Put your money where your mouth is and get cracking!

Or you could spend 5 freaking minutes on Wikipedia and realize that making a vaccine against a virus that specifically targets the immune cells is not trivial!

So much of our current understanding of the immune system has come from research around HIV (not to mention a ton of really important tools and assays), and you act like no one is working? Or we just need some magic engineer? God, you’re as bad as physicists modeling systems.

(Yes, I spent 4 years working on a model system for testing HIV vaccines that didn’t pan out, but it’s not because we weren’t systematic in our approach.)

Vaccine tinkering needs to stop and be replaced with vaccine ENGINEERING.

I don’t have a huge amount to add to the vaccine efficacy arguments being put forward by others, but this statement shows an astounding lack of knowledge about vaccine production. Vaccines are not tinkered with, they are engineered. You do know what a Chemical Engineer is, don’t you? These people are employed en mass, side-by-side with chemists and molecular biologists in the pharmaceutical industry to engineer vaccines. This is why vaccines contain adjuvants and various chemicals to improve their stability and increase their immunogenicity and improve their deployability and manufacturability: they’ve been engineered out the wazoo for decades. I would refer you back to that description of Dunning-Kruger way up the comment list because you have no idea what you don’t know and are clearly content to paddle around with your cherry-picking pretending it makes you competent enough to comment at any level on what you’re commenting about.

Having the information available never means one is qualified to know what to do with it. And, no sir, your sort of engineer does not belong in vaccine production; you definitely aren’t qualified.

Already did.

Oh, G-d, Vinucube andJohn Stone had a handjob exchange in the BMJ comments. So much for my midnight snack.

“Acellular pertussis vaccines may not prevent colonization (carrying the bacteria in your body without getting sick) or spread of the bacteria”
“Subclinical BP colonizing infections are here defined as asymptomatic or mild infections (e.g., transient cough, rhinorrhea) that elicit minimal or no BP-directed host immunity, and thereby allow unopposed BP toxin activity in a host.”

“Before 1920, Faroese pertussis outbreaks recurred every 5–6 years, stimulating BP-specific systemic and mucosal immunity, consistent with clinical studies (Long et al., 1990; Wendelboe et al., 2005), and primate studies demonstrating that acute clinical BP lowers mucosal BP colonization upon reexposure (Warfel et al., 2014).”

So? You still haven’t made a connection between this and transmission. You are assuming. Where is the evidence. And don’t cite primate studies; epidemiological studies in humans don’t support the conclusion.

Colonization is rare following natural pertussis infection as I showed in the other post. With the pertussis vaccine, we create an artificial weak response that protects the individual from a full infection but is not enough to prevent colonization and ongoing exposure to BP toxin that results in MS. And of course also silently spreading BP to unvaccinated babies. Thanks to Dr. Offit spinning a “cocoon” yarn about it.
Instead of protecting, you create a silently infectious cocoon for your baby. With natural infection you know who is infected and can at least take precautions to protect the baby. This is the vaccine safety science at work folks.

And you don’t want me to start on what the cow’s milk protein in the acellular pertussis vaccine does, do you?

“Silently spreading” pertussis to babies? Dude, there’s nothing “silent” about pertussis in an infant. And when it happens the health authorities are all over all the possible contact to get them tested and treated. Just like TSA you are assuming vaccine failure and colonization where none exists. Or are you hiding two score of cases of infant infection with no active case found?

I’m going to go have a nice bowl of ice cream, a piece of cheese, some butter on my bread and a tall, cold glass of chocolate milk.Then I’ll apply a yogurt mask all over my face and wash it off with a milk-based soap. And none of it will cause autism!

And you don’t want me to start on what the cow’s milk protein in the acellular pertussis vaccine does, do you?

As opposed to going the fuck away forever? No.

“Vaccine tinkering needs to stop and be replaced with vaccine ENGINEERING.”
Try to keep up.

I would draw your attention to a technique used in the making of viruses that is known as “genetic ENGINEERING”.

That should read “vaccines” instead of “viruses”; the original is true but not so much in this context.

“Vaccines are already continuously improved.”

The MMR vaccine is 50 years old. It has a fundamental fault. Sub-cutaneous (SC) administration. During natural infection, the virus enters via nose/mouth/eyes and has to cross several barriers before it can access the nerves. SC damages the nerves and provides direct access for the live viruses to these nerves. Result: encephalitis. An injury that is listed on the vaccine injury table. NOTHING has been done to fix this problem in 50 years. Is that your idea of continuous improvement?

The MMR vaccine is contaminated with GAD65 containing chick embryo cell culture. The result, induction of GAD65 autoantibodies that cause type 1 diabetes.
Tricky statistics are used to hide this problem so that they can avoid fixing the vaccine.

So why would Merck want to improve the MMR vaccine? Out of the goodness of their heart? When was the last time a for profit corporation do that and why would they do that? In fact, it may be a violation of fiduciary duty to shareholders if you unnecessarily spend money improving a product.

Our broken system makes it IMPOSSIBLE to improve vaccine safety.


That one vaccine is old doesn’t mean vaccines overall are not continuously improved. They are studied constantly. And actually the MMR is not quite 50 years old, though that is picking nits. Point is, this vaccine has an excellent safety record, and works.

You’re still operating off assumptions. You assume that somehow the weakened virus crosses the blood brain barrier–notoriously hard to do. The pathophysiology of why it would “attack nerves in the brain” is unexplained, particularly when we know that measles attacks the immune system. While mumps does indeed cause inflammatory processes, including to the meninges (very rare but it happens), that’s not the same as “attacking the nerves.” Immunization is still safer given that the most common cause of virual meningitis prior to the development of a mumps vaccine was in fact the mumps.

You also have not shown what the route of administration has to do with anything; you haven’t proven that a natural infection somehow protects us–what I’ve just explained shows it clearly doesn’t.

You do know that MMR is cultured in a number of different mediums, yes? Not all involve chick cultures. But yes, egg allergy is a well known complication. It’s still better than the consequences of this disease. MMR does not cause type 1 diabetes:

Go back to what you really know Vinu.

The MMR vaccine is 50 years old. It has a fundamental fault. Sub-cutaneous (SC) administration.

I’m sure the Medscape fake medical student’s analysis of scarification will be similarly enlightening. Strangely enough, I did not suffer encephalitis after receiving an MMR booster last year.

I also suffered no ill effect when I got an MMR vaccine three years ago. Go figure.

I am two thirds through the book The Vaccine Race by Meredith Wadman. On just the rubella part of the vaccine it turns out that the nasal administration requires lots more vaccine that subcutaneous. This is why it and the others others are not given through the nose, even though that is a desired route.

Apparently our noses have a robust system for filtering pathogens. And as for our arms, our skin is the first defense. Breaking the skin with a needle is an easier way to get around that kind of defense.

Please ignore the many typos. Most obvious: “… nasal administration requires lots more vaccine than subcutaneous”.

Oh, and the others. I’ll go back to watching “The Handmaid’s Tale” from HULU. I had to take a break in order to discuss it with my adult autistic son who actually understood the concepts because he is intelligent even though it is harder for him to speak, or be around many people.

Inflammation is behind the curse of western diseases, heart disease, stroke, type diabetes, etc.

Now spreading to the third world:
Long term persistence of inflammation in children vaccinated with Salmonella conjugate vaccine is associated with augmented Th9-Th17 cytokine.

Who’s counting that in the safety assessment?

Strong protein sequence alignment between vaccine antigens and adiponectin: an autoantigen involved in atherosclerosis-related coronary artery disease, cerebral infarction, diabetes mellitus and obesity

If you bury your head in the sand, you can even claim the sun does not exist.

Or you can make shit up and claim the sky is falling.

The sky is not falling, Chicken Little.

Stop being racist. “Western”, “Third World”. When are you from, 1985? The modern, meaningful terms are “developed” countries and “developing” countries. In case you haven’t noticed, the USSR is gone, so first, second, and third world categories are irrelevant.

“Stop being racist.”

Some pubmed listed “racism” for you:

Lifestyle and nutritional imbalances associated with Western diseases: causes and consequences of chronic systemic low-grade inflammation in an evolutionary context.

Western diets, gut dysbiosis, and metabolic diseases: Are they linked?

Infectious diseases. Chikungunya: no longer a third world disease.

If the product was engineered, there should be specifications and compliance testing.
Could you please post the specification for the max. quantity of say casein protein or aeroallergen protein allowed in say a DTap vaccine?
You can’t. They don’t exist. Hiring some chemical engineers to run your plant does not make it vaccine engineering.
Vaccinologists themselves are admitting that they are clueless about vaccine mechanisms. What more do you need?

“You think making a vaccine against HIV is easy? ”

Who said anything about making HIV vaccines being easy? The opposite is true. Vaccinologists FAILED to understand how vaccines work. They took the short cut and made horribly dangerous vaccines. In the case of HIV, that short cut did not work.

Vaccinologists FAILED to understand how vaccines work. They took the short cut and made horribly dangerous vaccines. In the case of HIV, that short cut did not work.

What the fuck are you yammering about? What “short cut”? There’s a fucking reason that developing HIV vaccinations is difficult, and it has fuck all to do with your river of shit.

Vaccinologists FAILED to understand how vaccines work.

Fortunately there is a random unqualified dickweed here to tell them how to vaccine properly.

Religious exemptions for immunization and risk of pertussis in New York state, 2000–2011.
“In addition, the risk of pertussis among vaccinated children living in counties with high exemption rate increased with increase of exemption rate among exempted children (P = .008).”

The vaccine does not even protect the vaccinated and you cooked this up below?
“And that pertussis vaccination reduces transmission to babies.”

“In addition, the risk of pertussis among vaccinated children living in counties with high exemption rate increased with increase of exemption rate among exempted children (P = .008).”

The vaccine does not even protect the vaccinated and you cooked this up below?

Read the sentence again, fuckwit. Everybody knows that aP isn’t a magic bullet.

“Counties with mean exemption prevalence rates of ≥1% reported a higher incidence of pertussis, 33 per 100 000 than counties with lower exemption rates, 20 per 100 000”

“Not knowing everything at one point is not actually the same as incompetence.”

Not knowing if a vaccine prevents transmission or not, before approval, is incompetence. Claiming it protects for life without a scientific basis, is fraud.

“B. I’m not sure why the speaker thinks other vaccines were not examined for Narcolepsy.”

No. Examining EVERY vaccine (not just flu vaccines) for non-target protein induced autoimmunity, as was the case in narcolepsy.

Pertussis Infection in Fully Vaccinated Children in Day-Care Centers, Israel

From 30 years ago and the FDA slept at the switch approving an even weaker vaccine with the same problem and worse.
Widespread silent transmission of pertussis in families: antibody correlates of infection and symptomatology.

So they have known for decades that cocooning makes the problem worse. But Dr.Offit is still spreading that myth.
They are not just wrong. They are fraudsters trying to keep the myth of pertussis herd immunity alive.

From the abstract of the first link.

Vaccinated children may be asymptomatic reservoirs for infection.

“May be”.
As for the rest of your comment, specifically your last paragraphs, you are going beyond the evidence.

Read the whole article.
There is no “may be” here:

“We also observed that DPT vaccine does not fully protect children against the level of clinical disease defined by WHO. Our results indicate that children ages 5-6 years and possibly younger, ages 2-3 years, play a role as silent reservoirs in the transmission of pertussis in the community. “

What symptom is the main source of pertussis transmission? Jesus Christ, it’s only the first two syllables in “colonization” that sum up your putrid Internet existence.

This argument was already had and resolved on the “Science Based Medicine” blog several months ago. Simply put, if pertussis vaccines stopped symptoms but not transmission, we would see those too young to be vaccinated developing pertussis. This very seldom happens, and when children get pertussis, it’s in places where vaccination rates are below the herd immunity threshold.
Your hypothesis is disproved.

The only woo-shouter more dogged than Vinu at plumbing the depths of PubMed in desperate search for articles that don’t actually support his delusional health beliefs, is Bill Sardi.

Bill still does the antivax thing now and again, but these days mostly seems to be concentrating on propping up his resveratrol supplement business with attacks on the perceived competition (and especially on anyone who questions whether resveratrol actually is the supreme snake oil of our time).

More and more I suspect that Vinu has escaped from one of those 1960s pulp SF novels, where only ONE MAN possesses the secret that can SAVE THE WORLD, but NO-ONE WILL HEED HIS WORDS.

He’s not the only one. There’s an entire range of cult leader (cough cough personal coaches ** cough cough**) going on with I am god and I hold the secret (is there a trademark somewhere) to your success 😀

Alain (shiny….)

That’s an excellent explanation! It also covers the terrible science, random racism, and general shout-y attitude. Oh, and the random illogical leaps!

Have you ever read some of the early sci-fi? Good gad is some of it outstandingly bad. Edgar Rice Burrough’s Barsoom (Mars) series is less racist than I expected, but only because they’re on Mars. And it’s less sexist only because there are so few women characters. The Lensman series is astonishingly sexist, even when the author thinks they’re not. (I’ve tried collecting very early American sci-fi but I can’t collect stuff I want to hurl into the recycling.)

I think I started one of those, but gave up quickly.

There’s a lot of much better stuff available. I enjoyed the early Conan stories, though.

“I also suffered no ill effect when I got an MMR vaccine three years ago.”

Along with Narad, that makes n=2. Encephalitis occurs in 1 in a million doses. For 95% CI, IIRC, you need about n=3,000,000.

“Breaking the skin with a needle is an easier way to get around that kind of defense.”

And you pay the price of increasing the probability of encephalitis.

The probability of getting measles in the US is about 1 in a million.

The probability of suffering natural measles induced encephalitis is 1 in 1000 infections. Your probability of suffering encephalitis due to natural measles infection is therefore 1 in a billion.

The probability of suffering encephalitis as an adverse event following the MMR vaccine, is 1 in a million.

The probability of suffering type 1 diabetes as an adverse event following the MMR vaccine is about 1 in 1000.

In the British Medical Journal:

MMR, TBE vaccine and type 1 diabetes

You can fine tune the numbers a bit but the benefits DO NOT outweigh the risks AT THIS TIME. If there is a huge increase in disease prevalence, one can revisit the calculations …

The vaccine must be modified to be safer by several orders of magnitude before its use can be justified under the current circumstances.

The probability of getting measles in the US is about 1 in a million.
The probability of suffering natural measles induced encephalitis is 1 in 1000 infections. Your probability of suffering encephalitis due to natural measles infection is therefore 1 in a billion…

You can fine tune the numbers a bit but the benefits DO NOT outweigh the risks AT THIS TIME

Congratulations. You’ve just proven your ignorance. You’ve overlooked a huge and very obvious confounder, namely that the rate of Measles is so low BECAUSE we vaccinate. If we were to stop vaccinating, the rate of Measles and Measles Encephalitis would skyrocket.
As for your second link, it’s another self-cite, this time of you responding to John Stone.

Along with Narad, that makes n=2. Encephalitis occurs in 1 in a million doses.

What’s the failure rate on things that you have putatively, erm, “ENGINEERED”? I mean, that’s the fucking model that you’ve taken to jabbering about.

In the British Medical Journal

Nobody is interested in your faked-up self-citations, Fake Medical Student.

A good reason to completely ignore the vinucube, I suppose, but I do get cranky under certain circumstances.

I really really hate the idiotic claim that because hardly anyone gets measles these days means we don’t need to vaccinate anymore. Especially after some recent outbreaks.

That is just stupid on steroids with a site of infinite idiocy.

“BECAUSE we vaccinate”

Partly true. Most adults are not vaccinated. As disease prevalence goes low, the vaccine needs to become safer to continue justifying its use.
You cannot use junk from 50 years ago, that made sense at THAT time under the disease prevalence at THAT time.

Most adults are not vaccinated.

Most adults ARE vaccinated. I believe you meant to say “immune”. And you’re wrong. Immunity from two doses of MMR lasts for literally decades.
As for the rest of your statement, by your logic seatbelts need to become safer as every year large numbers of people are injured by them and the death toll from road traffic accidents has been falling for years.

What happened in 1990? Prove to us that you can actually read a scientific paper, especially the two I linked to.

You cannot use junk from 50 years ago

I take it that there will be no more incoherent babbling about Richet, then.

I don’t engineer safety critical products.
As you may know, for many Ethernet interfaces, the bit error ratio (BER) spec. is 1e-12. One received error in 10^12 bits. Some are 1e-15.
The mean time to false packet acceptance (MTTFPA) for Ethernet is set to the age of the universe.
So, pretty good for the application.

“I don’t engineer safety critical products.”

Good, because if you are really as bad at engineering as you are at reading scientific papers then you could probably cause real harm. Other than that, you give us someone to laugh at.

So what happened in 1990? And why?

The mean time to false packet acceptance (MTTFPA) for Ethernet is set to the age of the universe.

It’s cute that you don’t know the age of the universe.


These are your words: “Ethernet is set to the age of the universe.”

So what is the age of the universe?

You should answer the question, Vinu, unless you WANT to prove that you don’t even understand the science in your own field.

Then you should explain what Ethernet bit rates actually mean in relationship to the age of the universe.

(Hint: I know the answer, and I’m not even a computer scientist)

But by all means: show us what you really know.

Yap, this inquiring mind here is waiting with a bag of crispers in hand to know to answer.

Alain (haven’t held my breath though)

I only had about 90 minutes at the campus library today, but a quick scan of the IEEE 802.3 site suggests that the vinucube’s remark was even dumber than I initially thought.

It is, Narad.

Alain: information sent over the internet is not all sent as a single file. If it were, and there were a transmission problem, you’d lose the whole file. So data is sent in packets, bits and bytes (the base unit of information in computer data). The packets are sent back and forth to ensure they are sent correctly, that’s what packet acceptance is in Transmission Control Protocol (TCP). It’s an error checking protocol (there are protocols that don’t check for errors but its not as reliable).

So bit error: bit is the smallest unit of data that can be sent. A bit is a unit of binary data: a 0 or a 1. A byte is 8 bits.

Ethernet is a networking technology; how computers electronically tie together in a local access network or LAN. Everything with computers operates by standards that are set by engineers who understand how all this stuff works; that’s what Narad was referring to when he mentioned IEEE 802.3. That’s the working group that sets Ethernet standards. They decided what the failure rate for packet transfer should be; this keeps everything consistent.

Where Vinu screwed up was when he said packet failure is set to the age of the Universe. That’s not correct. When you have data swapping back and forth in Gigabytes per second or 10 GB per second (the two set rates in current use), that’s a LOT of data. Packet rates are measured in time. An acceptable packet failure rate occurs so rarely (or should in a properly configured and operating system) that you’ll have a packet fail to transfer the equivalent of billions of years, and the value is so large it’s literally older than the universe itself.

Think of it as Avogordo’s number for computers; it’s why Orac says there is literally not a molecule left of the original substance because there aren’t enough molecules in the universe to account for them. The standards for packet transfer are so good, that would take longer than the universe has been around for a packet to fail. The standards aren’t SET to the age of the universe, but the age of the universe helps the mind grasp how good the standard is and how rare a packet failure should be.

Bear in mind I’ve grossly oversimplified this. But it’s amazing the shit you learn when you run a computer bulletin board system out of your college dorm room on an Apple IIe with a 300 baud modem using dial up. Of course it helps that my brother (who managed the IT end of the BBS) IS a computer software engineer, and likes talking about his field as much as I like talking about mine.

And MTTFPA is a derived quantity that depends, among other things, on the Hamming distance. It can’t be “set.”

Thanks you very much Panacea,

That and your CRC32 did provide a good refresher course on ethernet and TCP/IP. I was familiar with some of the concepts involved but definitely not MTTFPA and error detection in transmit.

I also uses CRC32 in my xz compressed initramfs for my linux bootable usb keys.


I have a friend who never fails to try to crack wise about putting the wrong year on his checks after Rosh Hashanah.

“may not” is not the same as “does not”. And given, like I said above, that if pertussis vaccines stopped symptoms but not transmission, we would see those too young to be vaccinated developing pertussis. This very seldom happens, and when children get pertussis, it’s in places where vaccination rates are below the herd immunity threshold.
Your hypothesis fails.

Show me precisely where MTTFPA is formally specified. You did read the comments above, right?

How do you prove a person is colonized? Where in the respiratory tract do you need to sample to show colonization? How do you show that a colonization is capable of producing sufficient bacteria to spread to another human? What is the minimum number of pertussis bacteria needed to cause an infection?

Airplanes built 50 years ago are not “junk”. They may be less advanced in some ways but some of them are still flying.

And what do 50-year-old airplanes have to do with anything?

Nothing, of course. Except now I have an image of Snoopy in his bi-wing with a cow as his gunner hunting down vinu a la the Bloody Red Baron. (Except that the Blood Red Baron was actually very good at what he did.)

They crashed and killed a lot more often than they do now. Can’t say that about the 50 year old MMR vaccine.

Because it was and still is a good design 😀


Is this some sort of deranged reference to your repeatedly failed Richet routine? The long memory, vinucube; don’t forget it.

“Airplanes built 50 years ago were junk compared to what can be built today.”

Aaargh… you know nothing about airplanes. The Beech Model 18 was introduced in the 1930s and manufactured until 1969. They are still around:

They are still flying around. I see them every so often. My animosity to them is our department owned one, and we had to measure bits and pieces of that created parasite drag. This was when we had to calculate flight envelopes with tables, equations and graphs by hand.

Apparently the year after I graduated as an aerospace engineer this had become a little program on a VAX.

“Nielsen noted that many components of the MMR vaccine were developed back in the 1960s — specifically, the mumps component is live attenuated Jeryl-Lynn strain genotype A — but that “the strains circulating are not the strains circulating now.”

“Some of the laboratory tests we do is based on science that is 30 or more years old. We have to make sure that’s still relevant today, taking that into the context of clinical presentation,” she told MedPage Today.”

Still flying on the Beech Model 18 …

Not only do these stupid vaccines hurt people, they don’t even work any more.

Not only do these stupid vaccines hurt people, they don’t even work any more.

The fact of the matter is, in a Barracks of 252 soldiers, only six mumps cases were found. I like those odds. In addition, a great many people don’t develop immunity even from mumps infection. Not quite the slam dunk you thought.

Especially since I was one of those who got mumps a second time in during 1968 mumps epidemic. Vinu could not logic himself out of a paper bag.


“But by all means: show us what you really know.”

Since you asked …

Ehternet data is normally organized into data packets of up to ~1500 bytes. Each of them includes a 32 bit cyclic redundancy check (CRC32) code. As I wrote before, a bit error ratio of 1e-12 is allowed. So 1 in a trillion bits can be in error. CRC32 detects these errors in a packet. Such corrupted packets are discarded and re-transmitted. The CRC32 cannot detect all types of errors. False packet acceptance (FPA) is when a packet contains errors and the CRC32 fails to detect it.

FPA is a catastrophic condition where an email sent to Narad could end up in Panacea’s inbox.
We set the MTTFPA target high enough that even if we deploy a 100 million interfaces, FPA is acceptably rare.

An example MTTFPA analysis for 100 Gigabit Ethernet:

FPA is a catastrophic condition where an email sent to Narad could end up in Panacea’s inbox.

So you, ah, think that an E-mail payload is carried in a single packet? Wonders never cease.


“Of note, 10% of the preschoolers and 55% of the school-aged children had had measles immunization at 12 months of age or older. Of these infants and children, 30% were admitted to hospital and 13 died (age range 5 months to 2Y years), yielding a case-fatality rate of 3.6%. All deaths were due to pneumonia with respiratory failure.”

Massive vaccine failure. And there seems to be a pattern. When the vaccine fails, it not only fails to protect, it makes the disease worse as we have seen with influenza.

The vaccine is so unsafe, you cannot even convince all the doctors to vaccinate:

“Of the 157 medical facility staff members infected,
5% (8 cases) were 15 to 19 years old, 50% (76 cases)
were 20 to 29 years, 40% (65 cases) were 30 to 39 years,
and 5% (8 cases) were 40 or older. Nurses made up 26%
(41 cases), 17% (27 cases) were physicians, and 10% (15
cases) were laboratory or radiology staff members; the remaining
47% (74 cases) had a variety of other jobs. For
84% of medical facility staff cases, the known or presumed
exposure site was a hospital; 17% of these were
thought to have been infected in the emergency department.
Only 4% of the infected staff members had a documented
history of measles immunization.”

These studies are a fraud in that they leave out THE MOST IMPORTANT detail.

Vaccination status of patients who died or had serious complications. What are they hiding?

Perhaps as has been observed in other cases, vaccine failure makes you MORE vulnerable to the disease.

Influenza vaccines seem to be modifying influenza disease into a dangerous dengue-like disease

“Remember those who forget (or in your case “ignore”) history are doomed to repeat it.”
Remember Richet? Those who live in glass houses, should not throw stones.

Clean up the stupid vaccines instead of deceiving people about the damage they cause.

gasp gasp gasp gasp
I had a look at your first link. The title?
Measles epidemic from failure to immunize.
I also had a look at the page you listed. This jumped out at me.

[A]pproximately 6000 (2.1%) of 280,000 children were identified as unimmunized and received exclusion notices.

In other words, despite making up just 2.1% of the population, unvaccinated pupils were responsible for 90% of preschool infected, and 45% of school aged children infected. In other words, vaccination lowered the risk of infection by over 90% in school aged children.
The vaccine isn’t perfect, but your attempt to use statistics that show the exact opposite of what you claim is hilarious.
That BMJ link is another self cite, of a letter you wrote.
Give it up, vinu. You got nothing.

The BMJ must keep publishing his letters as medicines version of the funnny papers.

“OOoohhh! I wonder what idiotcy Vinu is spouting this month!”


Acellular pertussis vaccines protect against disease but fail to prevent infection and transmission in a nonhuman primate model

the results above apply to humans and the pertussis vaccine DOES NOT prevent transmission
the FDA is clueless, experimenting on baboons when the results don’t apply to humans.

Pick one. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

the results above apply to humans and the pertussis vaccine DOES NOT prevent transmission
the FDA is clueless, experimenting on baboons when the results don’t apply to humans.

Pick one. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.”

I could explain why that’s a stupid assertion. But, I’m smart enough to have figured out you don’t actually want to learn anything.

“And it supports the notion that some people have a stronger tendency to develop allergic sensitization to an allergen that is delivered through the skin, either from a tick bite or a sting from an insect.”

So what happens when you deliver numerous food proteins (allergens) contained in vaccines, through the skin?

The medical establishment is still too stupid to understand this basic immunological concept even when it is a Nobel winning discovery from a hundred years ago.

They continue to inject food proteins, animal proteins, aeroallergens and sickened generations with life-threatening food allergies, asthma, autism and autoimmune disorders.

Um, dude, when I clicked that link, it took me to a login page. On that page was an “Email or Username” field with your Gmail address (no, I’m not going to put it here), and a field to enter a password.
Please give us a direct link to the Medscape article in question.

You seem not to have internalized the fact that your initial, naive Richet ploy was and remains prima facie idiotic, vinucube. Retreating to it after a blizzard of fail is simply tiresome.

You know Narad, I wondered where you took the pseudo vinucube and then I click the (medscape) link 😀

Cheers mate 😀 😀


Listening to vinu emote about vaccines is like getting the scoop on climate change from Dilbert*. In both cases, clueless engineers without expertise on the subject endanger public health.

*Scott Adams is into climate change denial and has hijacked poor Dilbert to promote his agenda.

Julian, Al,

The people who have the resources to prove it have no interest or incentive to do so.

I provide strong evidence to convince any reasonable person that vaccines cause autoimmune diseases including type 1 diabetes (T1D).
There’s one requirement:the patience to read and understand my work (self-cites are a compact way of pointing you to numerous non-self cites. So please don’t complain).

Basic concept: Small changes in human proteins are a sign of cancer that the immune system recognizes. Animal proteins have small changes compared to equivalent human proteins. Injecting animal protein containing vaccines along with aluminum adjuvant, whose function is to emulate a serious threat, results in a strong anti-cancer immune response. Repeated anti-cancer responses lead to autoimmunity. Autoimmunity is even a sign that the anti-cancer response is occurring. Vitiligo means better prognosis in melanoma.

I have even thrown in a potential treatment for T1D.

Mechanistic evidence

The following article was recommended by Prof. Dirk Roggenbuck, Brandenburg University of Technology Cottbus-Senftenberg, an autoimmunity expert:

Cancer immunology, bioinformatics and chemokine evidence link vaccines contaminated with animal proteins to autoimmune disease: a detailed look at Crohn’s disease and Vitiligo

Direct PDF:

Bioinformatics analysis links type 1 diabetes to vaccines contaminated with animal proteins and autoreactive T cells express skin homing receptors consistent with injected vaccines as causal agent

Epidemiological evidence

Destefano et al. reported Type 1 diabetes (T1D) odds ratio for MMR vaccine is 1.36, Hib is 1.14, Varicella is 1.16. Patterson et al. reported T1D odds ratio for tetanus vaccine is 1.57 and diptheria is 1.27.

Assuming 90% vaccine uptake and calculating the number of cases for the US population of 320 million, we get ~1 million cases of T1D. Estimated total for T1D cases from American Diabetes Association is 1.25 million. So epidemiological studies also show that the vast majority of T1D cases in the US were vaccine induced.

Potential treatment

Topical chicken protein to treat type 1 diabetes? The immunological basis explained …

Similar to:

EPIT decreases T1D incidence in sensitized non obese diabetic mice: a likely bystander effect of EPIT-induced Tregs

Three of your links were self-cites.
From the “National Academies” Link:

The committee finds that evidence convincingly supports a causal relationship between some vaccines and some adverse events—such as MMR, varicella zoster, influenza, hepatitis B, meningococcal, and tetanus-containing vaccines linked to anaphylaxis. Additionally, evidence favors rejection of five vaccine-adverse event relationships, including MMR vaccine and autism and inactivated influenza vaccine and asthma episodes. However, for the majority of cases (135 vaccine-adverse event pairs), the evidence was inadequate to accept or reject a causal relationship. Overall, the committee concludes that few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines.

“Might be” doesn’t mean “is”. In addition, DeStefano is a known name around here.
As for the JACI link, you are making several jumps.

Milk containing vaccines cause EoE, autism and type 1 diabetes

Injecting cow’s milk containing vaccines causes IgE mediated sensitization to cow’s milk proteins (bovine casein, bovine folate receptor (FR) proteins, bovine insulin etc.)

Subsequently consuming cow’s milk (either because allergy is mild or oral immunotherapy) causes synthesis of IgG4 against all of the above proteins.

Alum-Containing Vaccines Increase Total and Food Allergen-Specific IgE, and Cow’s Milk Oral Desensitization Increases Bosd4 IgG4 While Peanut Avoidance Increases Arah2 IgE: The Complexity of Today’s Child with Food Allergy

IgG4 against casein causes eosinophilic esophagitis (EoE).

IgG4 against FR causes autism.

IgG4 against insulin causes type 1 diabetes.

Food-specific IgG4 is associated with eosinophilic esophagitis

A milk-free diet downregulates folate receptor autoimmunity in cerebral folate deficiency syndrome

Effect of cow’s milk exposure and maternal type 1 diabetes on cellular and humoral immunization to dietary insulin in infants at genetic risk for type 1 diabetes. Finnish Trial to Reduce IDDM in the Genetically at Risk Study Group.

Cow milk feeding induces antibodies to insulin in children–a link between cow milk and insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus?

Presence of anti-insulin reaginic auto-antibodies of the IgG4 class in insulin-dependent (type I) diabetic patients before insulin therapy.

Dust raised by Gish Galloping is a known cause of chronic bronchitis, emphysema and uncontrollable eye rolling.

Meantime, “Lars Andersson” (who got an article published in an Indian journal alleging that HPV vaccine causes cervical cancer, but faked his professional affiliation and apparently his name too) is up to four retractions.

So who is this person really? Are there other identities under which (s)he is slithering around, in order to postulate bogus antivax theories?

what makes you people the authority on what I or anyone should do with our bodies? You want freedom of abortion so i can kill my baby but i cant choose what to put in my body? Just because you choose to believe that Mercury is safe does not make it true, basically it makes you an idiot! keep drinking the kool-aide and drop some blue pills!

You can choose what you put in your body.

You just have to live with the consequences: like not being able to send your kid to public schools to infect anyone else, and being exposed to public ridicule for being a moron.

Example: Mercury is not in vaccines. Organic mercury compounds (thimersol) are in SOME vaccines, in tiny doses quickly flushed by the liver. If you actually knew anything, you’d know that. Instead you hear “mercury” and flip out, forgetting that thimerosol has actually been out of vaccines for almost 2 decades with the exception of some flu vaccines. It’s not in MMR anymore at all.

keep taking the blue pill and believing the lies.. how about you do some research? you can start with the World Mercury Project run by RFK Jr. Im thinking hes not a moron or the people testifying b4 congress!

Sandy, RFK Jr is absolutely a moron, and so are his constituents who keep sending him back to Congress for term after term.

Lots of morons testify before Congress. Being summoned to testify doesn’t automatically make you smart; you have to be smart to begin with.

Please tell which vaccines on the present American pediatric vaccine are only available with thimerosal. Please do not mention influenza because there are at least three thimerosal-free versions.

Also, you seem to be beating an almost twenty year old horse:

Subject: Thimerosal DTaP Needed
From: Sally Bernard
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 00:01:50 -0400
Yahoo! Message Number: 27456
Onibasu Link:

Hi all:

A group of university-based researchers needs several vials of the older DTaP vaccine formulations which contained thimerosal for a legitimate research study. If anyone knows an MD who might have some of these vaccines or knows where to get them, please email me privately.

Thank you.

Sallie Bernard
Executive Director
Safe Minds

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