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Dr. Andrew Zimmerman: A useful idiot for the antivaccine movement

Dr. Andrew Zimmerman issued a press release claiming he had been misrepresented in a news report by antivaxer Sharyl Attkisson. He wasn’t. Rather, he’s been a useful idiot for the antivaccine movement.

About a week ago, I took note of a story that had been making the rounds in the antivaccine crankosphere. It was by an old “friend” of the blog, reporter Sharyl Attkisson, a reporter whose antivaccine proclivities I had first noted in 2007 and been commenting on every so often ever since. Given the intensity and idiocy of her antivaccine rhetoric in 2007, I concluded that by that time she had been antivaccine for quite a while at that point. In any event, last week she trotted out an affidavit by a pediatric neurologist specializing in autism named Dr. Andrew Zimmerman and used it to spin a conspiracy theory that the “fix” had been in for the Autism Omnibus. The Orac-length deconstruction and explanation are are in my previous post, and I’ll give you the short version in a moment.

First, however, here’s why I’m writing about this again. Yes, it’s a Tweet:

Yes, in response to Sharyl Attkisson’s report using his affidavit as a tool to spin an antivaccine conspiracy theory, Dr. Zimmerman issued a press release through the University of Massachusetts Medical School, where he recently retired from clinical practice. (The PDF is here.) Let’s deconstruct it, and I’ll weave a recap of my previous discussion into the deconstruction. Basically, Dr. Zimmerman is trying to deny that he’s antivaccine by claiming to have been “misrepresented.” He wasn’t, as you will see. He just can’t believe that, when you flirt with antivaxers and keep claiming that vaccines can cause autism in a certain situation, antivaxers will think you’re down with them.

So let’s start at the beginning of the press release:

Some media reports have mischaracterized an affidavit I provided in September 2018 regarding my opinion about the complex interplay of inflammation, mitochondrial disorders and the risk of developmental regression in children with autism, expressed in the context of the US Department of Health and Human Services Omnibus Autism Proceedings in 2007.

Later in the press release:

In the years since 2007, I was asked to testify in federal vaccine or civil courts on behalf of several children who had similar histories of developmental regression and ASD following immunizations and were later found to have mitochondrial disorders. During one of these cases, I learned that my original affidavit, based on the 2004 IOM report, had been used in court without the modification I refer to above – that in my opinion, there may be a subset of children who are at risk for regression if they have underlying mitochondrial dysfunction and are simultaneously exposed to factors that stress their mitochondrial reserve (which is critical for the developing brain). Such factors might include infections, as well as metabolic and immune factors, and vaccines. I was asked by Mr. Rolf Hazlehurst and Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. to write a subsequent affidavit (9/7/18) regarding my recall of events in 2007

So basically, since 2007, Dr. Zimmerman has been palling around with the antivaccine movement, so to speak, to the point where he’s tight enough with antivaccine activist Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. that RFK Jr. could ask him to give an affidavit and he would actually do it for him! He’s also been testifying on behalf of children with mitochondrial disorders whose parents are seeking compensation for vaccine-induced autism. The affidavit is here; so we can see just what Dr. Zimmerman said before seeing if his denial and claim of being “misrepresented” are plausible and convincing. Here’s the meat:

6. On Friday June 15th 2007, I was present during a portion of the O.A.P. to hear the testimony of the Petitioner’s expert in the field of pediatric neurology, Dr. Marcel Kinsbourne. During a break in the proceedings, I spoke with DOJ attorneys and specifically the lead DOJ attorney, Vincent Matanoski, in order to clarify my written expert opinion.

7. I clarified that my written expert opinion regarding Michelle Cedillo was a case-specific opinion as to Michelle Cedillo. My written expert opinion regarding Michelle Cedillo was not intended to be a blanket statement as to all children and all medical science.

8. I explained that I was of the opinion that there were exceptions in which vaccinations could cause autism.

9. More specifically, I explained that a subset of children with an underlying mitochondrial dysfunmction, vaccine-induced fever and immune stimulation that exceeded metabolic energy reserves could, and in at least one of my patients, did cause regressive encephalopathy with features of autism spectrum disorder.

10. I explained that my opinion regarding exceptions in which vaccines could cause autism was based upon advances in science, medicine, and clinical research of one of my patients in particular.

Now here’s what he says in his press release:

In 2007, I wrote an affidavit for the US Department of Justice, in which I stated my opinion at that time, based on the 2004 Institute of Medicine (IOM) report, “Immunization Safety Review: Vaccines and Autism,” that there was no scientific evidence that vaccines cause autism. I was prepared to testify to that effect at the Omnibus Autism Proceeding (OAP). Three days before I was scheduled to testify, I spoke with DOJ attorneys about my revised opinion, that there may be a subset of children who are at risk for regression if they have underlying mitochondrial dysfunction and are simultaneously exposed to factors that stress their mitochondrial reserve (which is critical for the developing brain). Such factors might include infections, as well as metabolic and immune factors, and vaccines. I was subsequently asked by the DOJ not to testify.

So far, there’s no substantive disagreement between what Dr. Zimmerman said in his affidavit and in his press release. Now here’s what Sharyl Attkisson says in her sensationalistic story:

But now Dr. Zimmerman has provided remarkable new information. He claims that during the vaccine hearings all those years ago, he privately told government lawyers that vaccines can, and did cause autism in some children. That turnabout from the government’s own chief medical expert stood to change everything about the vaccine-autism debate. If the public were to find out. Hazlehurst: And he has come forward and explained how he told the United States government vaccines can cause autism in a certain subset of children and United States government, the Department of Justice suppressed his true opinions. Hazlehurst discovered that later when Dr. Zimmerman evaluated Yates as a teenager. That’s when he partnered with vaccine safety advocate Robert F. Kennedy, Junior—who has a voice condition.

So where’s the “misrepresentation”? If there’s misrepresentation, it’s not what Dr. Zimmerman claims. The content of his affidavit, it seems to me, was not what Sharyl Attkisson misrepresented, other than perhaps some exaggeration. Rather, it was the significance of his affidavit that she misrepresented. As I described in my previous post, Attkisson represented Zimmerman’s affidavit as slam dunk evidence that the Department of Justice had “suppressed” Dr. Zimmerman’s opinion. Remember, the Autism Omnibus Proceedings (OAP) were a big deal at the time. Based on the number of petitioners (5,400!) coming before the court claiming that their children’s autism had been caused by vaccines, based on suggestions by representatives of the petitioners, an agreement was struck to examine a few “test cases.” Basically, the petitioners would provide the very best cases they could representing specific hypotheses regarding how vaccines might cause autism, and the Vaccine Court would try them. If the petitioners could win with these cases and thereby convince the Court that their hypotheses were plausible, then the rest of the cases in the AOP could proceed. If the cases failed, then the hypotheses would be viewed as too implausible and not demonstrated, and the rest of the cases would not proceed. Basically, there were three hypotheses to be tested:

  1. Did the mercury in thimerosal used as a preservative in vaccines cause autism?
  2. Did the MMR vaccine cause autism?
  3. Did a combination of MMR and thimerosal cause autism?

How this played out was a little more complicated than that, but for the purposes of this post I don’t need to go into it again when I discussed it so recently. What is important is that Dr. Zimmerman did contribute expert opinions to the cases asserting that vaccines don’t cause autism but did not testify. What is important is that his opinion was a relatively minor component of the DOJ’s defense and likely unnecessary. What is important is that the petitioners in the AOP test cases would have lost anyway even if Dr. Zimmerman had never contributed expert opinions to the test cases. That’s where the misrepresentation by Sharyl Attkisson was, her inflating the importance of Dr. Zimmerman to the AOP outcome and of the DOJ not giving him a forum to air his then newly arrived at belief that vaccines could cause autism in children with mitochondrial disorders based on his experience evaluating Hannah Poling and, with her father, writing up a case report of her regression. I wrote about that case in detail ten years ago when it was new, in particular how the evidence does not support Zimmerman and Poling’s idea that vaccines can cause autism in children with mitochondrial disorders. So basically, the misrepresentation by Sharyl Attkisson in her story was not of Dr. Zimmerman’s claims in his affidavit, but by letting Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. portray the government’s changing its mind on having Dr. Zimmerman testify as “one of the most consequential frauds, arguably in human history.” Hyperbole, much? So where’s the “misrepresentation” of the affidavit? As I read Dr. Zimmerman’s press release, I got the impression that he was trying to portray his opinions (i.e., the content of the affidavit) as having been misrepresented when in fact it was not. Maybe he meant that its significance had been misrepresented, but I don’t think so. If he didn’t think it was important to tell the world that he had been pulled as a testifying expert witness after he told the DOJ lawyers for the defense in the AOP about how he thought vaccines could cause autism in children with mitochondrial disorders, why on earth did he give the affidavit? What on earth did he think that RFK Jr. was going to do with it, if not publicize it and try to weave a conspiracy theory out of it of government “suppression” of Dr. Zimmerman’s ideas. And if he couldn’t publicize it enough himself, he did what RFK Jr. always does: He enlisted the aid of another antivaxer, in this case Sharyl Attkisson, to trumpet the conspiracy theory with her talent for disguising propaganda as a news report. So what’s Dr. Zimmerman’s role in all this? I don’t think he’s actually antivaccine (although, to be honest, I’m not as sure of that as I once was), but it is clear that he’s been flirting with the antivaccine movement for a decade. Personally, I think he’s playing the role of a useful idiot for the antivaccine movement, in particular for RFK Jr. and Sharyl Attkisson. After Attkisson’s report, maybe he realized he’d been playing that role and was trying to counteract the damage to his reputation in the medical profession. It’s far too late for that, however. He took that hit ten years ago, and it was a self-inflicted wound only made worse by his affidavit and press release.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

198 replies on “Dr. Andrew Zimmerman: A useful idiot for the antivaccine movement”

I’m also wondering what case the affidavit is for, and whether he will still testify in it. The Hazlehursts’ torts suit, which has little to no chance of going anywhere? Or a new case?

Thank you Prof. Reiss; those were both instructive and confirmatory. The fact that Zimmerman had been given the opportunity to advance his pet hypothesis in court kind of takes the wind out of Attkisson’s and Jr.’s sails that there is a grand government conspiracy to silence Zimmerman. I also note that in the first case you cited, Frye was involved and received a rather scathing rebuke from the SM about his “expertise”. I also note that in both cases, Zimmerman was not afforded any credibility regarding his hypothesis. It appears as though Zimmerman has become a hammer and autism a nail. He is dangerously in crank territory.

Haven’t you heard of CDC whistle blower Dr William Thompson? It is nor just Dr Zimmerman’s “theory”, it is a proven fact. That paper and other documents are in a Congressman office, WAITING FOR CONGRESS TO DO THEIR JOB. I’m sure you are a fine and smart person, so you could read Dr Thompson’s statements. Dr Bernadine Healie made her statement and it’s a matter if record. So many others have been buried, but the truth always has a way of coming out, I found. Congress will definitely their job. Old adam Schiff can take money, and try to censor, but politico comes up with politicians bank rollers. Look at Dr Christopher Exley’s latest studies on aluminum adjuvant. It’s a really cool study.

Basically you embarrassed yourself and Zimmerman did confirm vaccines can cause autism.
Now quickly do another propaganda piece for your corporate employer hahaha

Cool. So this is the time where you prove that “Zimmerman did confirm vaccines can cause autism” by posting his PubMed indexed study that includes a large number of children, and not just Dr. Poling’s own child.

And RFK jr. should know (Rolf Hazlehurst may or may not) that there is no fraud here. He is a lawyer. He understands the legal system, even if Zimmerman does not.

Good Gawd , Orac! What is the point of this, your latest mush?! How does Zimmerman’s latest statement, which pretty much verifies Attkisson’s account, assist damage control? Are you trying to hang your hat on the part where Zimmerman is stating that he is not an antivaxxer and loves vaccines? Or, are you making hay that Attkisson attempts to ‘fill in the blanks’ too much by speculating that the reason why the DOJ did not have Zimmerman testify was that it would blow the lid off the autism coverup? Again — what is your point?!

In any event, how does this apparent ‘damage control’ absolves the facts that Zimmerman was asked not to testify, and — and much more serious! — his written statement was misrepresented in court?!

His testimony would have been irrelevant to all those cases. None of those people were claiming a mitochondrial disorder

And this begs the bigger question, why use his written statement then, which he is claiming was misrepresented? If what he was claiming was irrelevant to the cases at hand, then what’s the point of even bothering with him?

Lawrence, please read my post above. If the DOJ thought that Zimmerman’s claim was irrelevant to the cases at hand that they saw no point of bringing him in as an expert witness, then why even bother with his written statement? Using it establish that they believed his view was pertinent to the cases, and, which, rubish what is being argued here.

He’s trying to get across that if he is anti-vaccine then nothing he has ever said is to be trusted. Thats how Orac works and luckily for Orac, he’s the one who gets to decide if someone is anti-vaccine or not. Cool having your own blog right?

“Cool having your own blog right?”

Get your own blog.

But in the mean time please explain why it is better to let a baby get chicken pox, rather than protecting them by maintaining community immunity with a varicella vaccine. What is “good” about an infant suffering from dozens of itchy open wounds that are susceptible to bacterial infections, or the possibility of stroke:
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/a-recent-case-report-highlights-why-skipping-the-chickenpox-vaccine-is-a-bad-idea/

Just support your answer with PMID authored by reputable qualified researchers.

Thanks David, yes, it’s. clear that Orac is trying every which way to discredit Zimmerman and his claims, including slapping him with the ‘antivaxxer’ label. On another thread, I discussed what provaxxers mean when they accuse someone of being an antivaxxer. As I explained, it’s not so much about BELIEF, but ACTION, and that action being betrayal of the dogma.

Parents sharing their kids’ vaccine injury stories proves this point. Indeed, these parents had their kids vaccinated in the first place, so is it fair to consider them antivaxxers? Yes — because whether they believed in vaccines is irrelevant; they’re now bringing ill-repute to the vaccination exercise, and this makes them antivaxxers.

Reading Orac here, he is also proving this point. His main beef with Zimmerman is not so much that Zimmerman believes vaccines can cause autism in certain kids. His main beef with Zimmerman is that Zimmerman shared this belief in his affidavit. Zimmerman essentially is a traitor who betrayed the dogma.

Essentially, the DOJ wanted Zimmerman to keep his mouth shut. Orac also wanted Zimmerman to keep his mouth shut. Perhaps even Zimmerman is now ’embarrassed’ and which he had kept his mouth shut. Zimmerman, however, did not keep his mouth shut, and the die is cast. Zimmerman is an antivaxxer. Belief be damned!

The DOJ attorney’s BOTH LIED to the Supreme Court after denying Dr. Zimmerman the ability to testify. I don’t know what screams ultimate corruption than that. The ones invested in the whole big pharma vaccination push are extremely worried their bottom line is destined to suffer.

None of these cases got to the Supreme Court. Reading the expert opinion to the special master was not lying. He did not owe it to the court to bring in the opinion on the issues not before the court, and Zimmerman’s deposition suggests he still holds similar opinion about thimerosal and Wakefield’s theories.

The petitioners could have called Dr. Zimmerman, by the way. And brought in the mitochondrial claim, even later – they knew of it by 2008.

The point is that Zimmerman appears to be embarrassed by having his long-term flirtation with antivaxers become public, and is attempting an unconvincing self-defense that he was “misrepresented”.

At the end of the day, we have one “expert” opinion about an alleged vaccine-autism connection, outweighed by many others, in a case where his beliefs (even if fully explored) would not have altered the final determination, blown up into the latest faux conspiracy by antivaxers whose “smoking gun” turns out to be yet another wet firecracker.

Exactly. When he was just testifying for the Polings and others, he could do it under the radar. RFK Jr. and Sharyl Attkisson publicized his activities to the entire world. He views himself as not antivaccine; so he was likely mortified to see antivaxers were using him to promote their conspiracy theories. It probably hurt his academic reputation and his own self-image as a scientist. I have little sympathy, though. He brought it all on himself by letting RFK Jr. to talk him into producing that affidavit for him.

Bobby didn’t have to talk Dr Zimmerman into it. He’s appauled at having his statement skewed. Didn’t you hear him APOLOGIZE to his patient. You know what the IOM said about the link?

The point is that Zimmerman appears to be embarrassed by having his long-term flirtation with antivaxers become public

Ding, ding, ding, ding.

Yes indeedy.

Having said that he really only has himself to blame. He should have taken notice of what happened with William Thompson and his flirtation with the anti-vaxxers. It is abundantly clear that Wakefield, Hooker, Kennedy et al. operate on a different set of morals.

Simplified to a rule: Don’t fraternize with the enemy.

They will engage you in enough casual conversation to eventually accumulate a number of sentences or fragments they can quote out of context for whatever purpose they have.

They’ll publicize the selective quotes to the degree that you are compelled to spend much effort trying to rectify the situation, with mixed results at best.

Whatever benefit you think you might get from fraternizing is not worth the amount of trouble you’ll cause yourself and others.

Type the name “Poul Thorsen” into the search box of this blog. Seriously, it really amuses me when a new antivaxer shows up and things she’s revealing something new that my readers and I have never heard of before.😂😂😂

So bring in CDC whistle blower Dr William Thompson. They know about HIM. Look up CDC’s Paul Thorsen . When you keep reading and discovering, it’s amazing what you find out.

Try searching for “CDC whistleblower” on t his blog. No, seriously, do it. Im intimately granular with the conspiracy theory, it’s origins, and why it’s bullshit.😏

Thx Dangerous Bacon, so Zimmerman’s apparent ’embarrassment’ absolves everything! I really am starting to reconsider. Maybe indeed you guys are stupid enough, and are practicing what you preach — taking more than your share of vaccines and causing some very ‘serious’ neurological issues.

Nonsense attempt at an insult aside, I don’t think anything absolves Attkinsson, Kennedy, or Zimmerman

Shut up Gerg, unless you’ve got something to add that isn’t just worthless spew from your empty brain.

I’ve said this here before, but I’ll repeat it for you.
When I was 16 a young girl I knew died of post measles encephalopathy. She suffered an obscene death as her brain was slowly destroyed. As a nurse I have also watched a person die from post herpes encephalopathy. That death was also horrible.
Please don’t discount the suffering these preventable diseases cause, they aren’t harmless childhood illness, they can and do kill. And unlike the speculation by Dr Zimmerman; this is a known and understood condition that effects about 1 in 1000 children who get measles. One estimate is that in the 1960’s (before vaccines were available) about 3.5 MILLION American children caught measles every year. Do the math.

Thx for sharing your tragic story, Shelly. In fairness though, it must be filed with the countless parents who explain how they took their healthy kids in for vaccines, and after those kids lost eye-contact, speech, regressed into autism, and are now in diapers for life.

@Greg:

[T]he countless parents who explain how they took their healthy kids in for vaccines, and after those kids lost eye-contact, speech, regressed into autism, and are now in diapers for life.

About that…We keep hearing of all these people who experienced their children becoming autistic after getting vaccinated, but when we ask for names, number, timelines etc. all of a sudden the only response is crickets.

Gergles: “In fairness though, it must be filed with the countless parents who explain how they took their healthy kids in for vaccines,”

How did that work out for Brian Hooker? It looks from reading the following ruling that the medical records show they were told about issues with their son, but ignored them:
https://ecf.cofc.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_public_doc?2002vv0472-118-0

It starts with:

During SRH’s early months, using the Denver II Developmental Screening Test (“DDST”), Dr. Heller-Bair frequently recorded SRH’s developmental progress. (Ex. 35, pp. 4, 5, 8, 11, 13, 24.) This screening tool allows medical personnel to indicate a “pass” (“P”) or “fail” (“F”) for each infant milestone, on a chart divided into age groups. At four months of age, Dr. Heller-Bair noted “fail” for three developmental milestones that SRH had not achieved. (Ex. 35, p. 24.) At six months of age, there are again notations indicating that SRH failed to achieve three milestones. (Id.) At nine months, he failed two milestones, as he was not using “mama/dada” and could not sit up alone. (Id.) At his twelve-month check-up, on February 25, 1999, he could only speak two words, and was not yet able to drink from a cup. (Id.)

I skimmed over the first of the two Zimmerman NVICP cases that Dorit shared and it was similar. The parents thought the child had regressed after the MMR, but the child showed clear signs of autistic behavior on videos well before the one year old immunizations. And the child had a long history of health problems as well.

There were about 5000 participants in the Autism Omnibus proceedings and their best cases didn’t stand up to close examination.

On a positive note, I found that SPARK for Autism has recruited about 35,000 of their target 50,000 participants in real research on the causes of autism!

https://sparkforautism.org/discover_article/supersized-research/

In fairness though, it must be filed with the countless parents who explain how they took their healthy kids in for vaccines, and after those kids lost eye-contact, speech, regressed into autism, and are now in diapers for life.

No it doesn’t Greg. You see, measles encephalopathy is a real pathology that can be verified. None of these parental reports have been shown to be backed by any evidence. You should read the two cases Prof. Reiss linked above, they clearly denote how faulty parental recall is and how they will revise history to reverse engineer a vaccine causation. Your continued dehumanisation of autistics is noted.

It’s really disheartening to hear these comments about parents “faulty memories” and such. It’s got to be excepted by now that many kids regress into autism. Can this really still be a question? As a parent you live with the child daily and will be the first to notice drastic behavioral changes. For me, and many others, there’s no need to rely on memory. I have video of my son at 13 months attentively listening to me as I ask him to identify objects: What’s this? “Ball”, Who’s this? “Daddy”, What is this? “Bwanna” (banana). I don’t know for sure what caused him to regress into autism. He had a round of anti-biotics, followed closely by the DTaP vaccine. Again, I have record of this. He then faded away from us. Six months later he would not even respond to his name. Fast forward 8 years and he’s still non-verbal. Is there any wonder that autism parents gravitate toward the people who are seeking to help our children and away from those of you who rail against them?

I have no doubt real regression is very hard on the family. The point is that in many cases parents do not notice symptoms of autism (and to remind you, regression does not mean the child did not have autism before; it’s about loss of skills).

And many of the people selling parents fake treatments are not seeking to help them. They’re seeking to take advantage of them.

Regressive Parent: “Again, I have record of this. He then faded away from us. Six months later he would not even respond to his name. Fast forward 8 years and he’s still non-verbal.”

So how did your claim with the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program go? It looks like since you had such good documentation that you did better than Brian Hooker. Or the Cedillo family with their video records: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedillo_v._Secretary_of_Health_and_Human_Services

By the way, RegressiveParent, has your child ever been tested for Landau-Kleffner Syndrome: https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/landau-kleffner-syndrome/

My son was tested for it with a sleep EEG because of his history of seizures. He did not have it. I did know another family where their older child had seizures, but it was the younger boy who had LKS. So while the older child had seizures that were very dangerous, the younger one had seizures in his sleep that was literally deleted his speech.

According the linked article there are a few genetic changes that seem to be a cause. Check out squirrelelite’s link to the SPARK for Autism genetic study. You will help find the actual causes of autism, and perhaps find answers to help your child.

doritmi – All of the hallmarks of autism appeared during his regression and not before – my heart sank when he started toe-walking and flapping his hands. His eye-contact disappeared and his social interaction went away. Our pediatrician never mentioned any concerns until my wife starting asking questions. All we got was “he’s just aquiring other skills” or “his sister is doing all the talking for him”. My wife knew better than the doctor.

I’m a skeptic by nature, which is why I’m on this site to begin with, but we have tried and will continue to try anything we can for my son in the “do no harm” category in spite of the naysayers.

Chris – Thanks for the input. My son was born in 2008. I’m not litigious by nature. I did not look for someone to sue. I think it would be pretty hard for parents to prove in the face of the forces aligned against them. I’ve only set out to find out as much as I can to help my son.

My son has never shown any sign of seizures, but has done an overnight EEG at Arkansas Children’s due to his regression. Nothing was found concerning seizure activity.

@Regressive Parent, as Prof. Reiss stated no one is denying that regressive autism occurs; it’s just that subtle signs of autism are unnoticed by physicians and yes, even parents and regression is a sudden loss of skills. Parents love, adore and want the best for their children and we aren’t the most impartial observers and reporters of our children’s illnesses, behaviours and deficits. It’s a human foible and not personal to point that out. We, as humans, are hard-wired to seek patterns and that is what we do to explain a difficult experience in a way that we can navigate. I would urge you to read some NVICP decisions, such as the two cited earlier to see how parental recollection differs from contemporaneous reporting of events. I would encourage you to seek out a support system that allows you to navigate your family’s situation in a positive, accepting and evidence-based manner so all of you can flourish. I wish you well.

RegressiveParent, some kids with LKS do not have seizures when they are awake. But I am glad that they did check for that possibility. My kid is 20 years old than yours, his seizures started as a newborn and again with an actual disease as a toddler — so we were looking for concerns.

I really encourage you to sign up for the SPARK for Autism study. You might get some real answers. I really wanted to sign our family up, but my son is over eighteen and needs to fill out the form (he is functioning enough we do not have guardianship, just a power of attorney).

Good luck.

Science Mom: “Prof. Reiss stated no one is denying that regressive autism occurs;…”

And Landau-Kleffner Syndrome is an actual reason for that. I am sure there are others, but that is the one I my son was tested for. I think Dravet Syndrome is another.

@Regressive Parent: I wish you (and your child) the best of luck in this. I’m heartened by your “do no harm” guideline, which should protect your child from the most dangerous woo. It’s worth remembering that “how can we treat this?” (symptoms) can be answered separately from “what caused this?”–that’s a thing I need to remember with my own health issues.

“…Robert F. Kennedy, Junior—who has a voice condition.”

Every time I read that I’m like WTF

His “voice condition” is said to be spasmodic dysphonia. In my opinion, his “voice condition” is that when he speaks, what comes out is emotionally overwrought nonsense.

First, get his name right. It’s Poul Thorsen, not Paul Thorsen. Second, I’ve written a fake amount about him. His alleged fraud in now way invalidates the studies for which he was but one co-author.

(Excuse me Len, but no reply options for the posts above)

And above, we see Chris, Dorit, and Science Mom work feverishly to deny RegressiveParent’s reality. It doesn’t matter that they weren’t there, or RegressiveParent may have videos to support her claim. All that matters is her case that challenge the dogma, simply cannot be allowed to stand.

As I argued above, RegressiveParent’s experience is bringing ill-repute to the vaccination exercise, and for that she must be branded as an antivaxxer. Whether she once believed in vaccine is irrelevant, actiion is what matters. RegressiveParent should be cast in the same boat as an ‘odious’, ‘unrepentent’ antivaxxer as myself. With my pitchfork and open arms, I welcome you RegressiveParent.

Lovely exercise in fallacies, Greg.
Here’s an example of parents who believed their daughter was turned autistic by the MMR, only for the evidence to show it didn’t.
Michelle Cedillo, one of the Test Cases in the Omnibus Autism Proceedings.
As part of their case, Michelle’s parents submitted video of Michelle before her vaccines to the Vaccine Court. What they thought would be the cornerstone of their case turned into the millstone around its neck. Experts were able to point out that:
a) Michelle was already showing autistic behaviours, and;
b) Her parents were unconsciously adjusting their behaviour to hers.
Special Master George Hastings ruled against the Cedillos. The key sentence was “This case is not a close case.” The Cedillos were so convinced that the vaccines were responsible for Michelle’s condition that they appealed twice, both times unsuccessfully.
It is understandable to want answers, but when we cling to an answer that the evidence overwhelmingly refutes, we just cause harm.

Excuse me Gergles but you sound like you’re stuck with a bumblebees’ nest in your underwear. Are we getting under your skin?

Al

More specifically, I explained that a subset of children with an underlying mitochondrial dysfunmction, vaccine-induced fever and immune stimulation that exceeded metabolic energy reserves could, and in at least one of my patients, did cause regressive encephalopathy with features of autism spectrum disorder. 10. I explained that my opinion regarding exceptions in which vaccines could cause autism was based upon advances in science, medicine, and clinical research of one of my patients in particular.

Dr. Zimmerman doesn’t appear to be consistent. His opinion is based upon N=1 who suffered from a regressive encephalopathy but he uses this to extrapolate vaccines could cause autism in a subset of children. Children who, by the way, would be much more vulnerable to metabolic stress from VPDs if left unvaccinated which the anti-vaxxers advocate. Dr. Zimmerman may wish to consider his “research” and his company more carefully.

@ Science Mom:

Exactly. If these children are so vulnerable, shouldn’t parents be more afraid of VPDs? but NO!!!!!

Oddly, although most children with autism do not have a mitochondrial dysfunction, many anti-vaxxers speak as if it is common: it is strung into their list of microbiome dysbiosis, autoimmunity, leaky gut and/ or blood brain barrier and other hobgoblins.

About Greg:
like the woo-meisters** I survey, his evaluations of people’s abilities leave much to be desired. If you disagree with someone just call them “stupid” or neurologically damaged- as if you could tell the difference from the norm. Dunning-Kruger doesn’t only apply to book knowledge but person perception as well: if someone can’t tell Bacon’s, Dorit’s or Orac’s level of competence it clearly demonstrates their own lack of ability.
The regular audience here is not a collection of rubes and University of Google alumni seeking out the latest GFCF diet or miraculous probiotics: they know how to research things that they don’t already understand. The sources people choose to follow illustrate their own capacities.

** if they call someone a genius or brilliant, you can be sure to find bullshit artistry or posturing. They think themselves superior as well.

Denice,

Don’t forget that perceptions are not just shaped by DK but also, any personnality trait or disorder.

Alain

He certainly isn’t consistent.
Though as a business plan his inconsistency is a good gig: there are hundreds of good green reasons (thousands, actually, depending on how expert you are) for each claim in testimony or an affidavit that an N of 1 result unmasks a risk to a broader group, especially as an elderly MD approaching impending retirement age.

Excuse me Gergles but you sound like you’re stuck with a bumblebees’ nest in your underwear. Are we getting under your skin?

Nah, not really, Alain! On the contrary, I find it amusing. Denice Walter is a different story though. She takes the ‘fakeness’ to the ultimate level.

RegressiveParent also said something that needs reflecting on. Regardless of which side you’re on with the autism-vaccine debate, it’s really true that the pro side has nothing positive to offer. Their message is one of resignation and defeat. They will have a new parent believe that she has a 1 in 36 chance of having a brain injured child, and the cause is unknown, and it’s something she will just have to live with. The anti’s, however, offer a much more positive message. They argue that such injuries have a real cause, and can be avoided.

Once again, Greg, you dehumanise autistics like me and Alain.
As for:

The anti’s, however, offer a much more positive message. They argue that such injuries have a real cause, and can be avoided.

Except the evidence says they’re wrong. They offer the same false hope that killed Jess Ainscough and her mother. The same false hope that leads thousands to quack treatments that shrink wallets and bank accounts without fixing problems.

Indeed, the N=1 is beyond troubling.
Seeing a number and courtesy of meticulous documentation, finding a correlation of comorbidities could possibly lead to something testable, he extrapolated from one instance that could be spurious and expounded an entirely new field of, well, confabulation.
Then, to come out with an affidavit and sworn testimony, based upon the N=1 is simply a case of a well respected gunslinger happily drawing his weapon, taking careful aim and firing – directly at his foot, then complaining about the resultant limp.

If the mitochondria are so delicate, secondary to the mutation causing malfunctions within the organelle, be it via oxidative stress or failure to neutralize a byproduct or a weakness in a pore, which becomes a destructive cascade failure, that same malfunction will occur with the disease that is being vaccinated against orders of magnitude greater than the abbreviated response involved in vaccinating against said organism.
It’s as deficient in following the theory through as the antivaxer’s nonsense, “I have a strong immune system”, which entirely ignores lethal cytokine storms being the very product of a strong immune response, implying correctly that the immune system is indeed quite strong – stronger than the organism hosting it.

But, I can forget all of that information simply by learning to play the violin.

Gotta love anti-vaxxers and this mystery “subset” of kids that even they can’t pin down with their spiky moving goalposts…

Orac writes,

Basically, the petitioners would provide the very best cases they could representing specific hypotheses regarding how vaccines might cause autism, and the Vaccine Court would try them.

MJD says,

In a communication from Autism Speaks (2018) titled, “CDC increases estimate of autism prevalence by 15 percent, to 1 in 59 children” it is written, “But estimated rates varied, with a high of 1 in 34 in New Jersey (a 20 percent increase), where researchers had better access to education records.”

https://www.autismspeaks.org/science-news/cdc-increases-estimate-autisms-prevalence-15-percent-1-59-children

Q. Are there specific hypothesis that have come forth since the Autism Omnibus hearings that more clearly describe how vaccines might cause autism.

Why doesn’t anyone bring up the fact that the introduction of vaccines has led to the reduction of “mental retardation” diagnoses?

Largely because, most people actually comprehend what happens when you remove part of a number from column A and slide it over into column B. 🙂

like the woo-meisters** I survey, his evaluations of people’s abilities leave much to be desired.

Orac –please!, pretty please! — can you talk to ‘Management’ about retiring the ‘Denice Walter’s’ script! Seriously — I can put up with the rest of you guys, but she is an absolute challenge.

As to surveying Orac’s abilities, I would say his serving of the days are pretty much strawmen and ridiculous red-herrings. Tell me if you’ve encountered these tastes:

‘Antivaxxers love their conspiracy theory that a top CDC scientist admitted a coverup, where they did not report an autism-MMR finding. This is bogus since it is based on Hooker’s incompetent reanalysis.’

And how about now this one…

“Antivaxxers have a new conspiracy theory that in the Omnibus hearing DOJ lawyers refused to have Zimmerman testify and misrepresented his statement that vaccines can cause autism in some children. Again, this is bogus because Zimmerman never said anything about MMR and thimerosal causing autism.”

i keep saying this is all theatre. What else can anyone make of it!

“I can put up with the rest of you guys, but she is an absolute challenge.”

Good for her. All the more reason to keep her around. Remember this is not an echo chamber like Age of Autism. If you don’t like it, then stay away.

You mean theatre like pulling out some distraught parent, with an anecdote about a ‘vaccine damaged ‘ child, and putting them on the big screen?

Orac –please!, pretty please! — can you talk to ‘Management’ about retiring the ‘Denice Walter’s’ script! Seriously — I can put up with the rest of you guys, but she is an absolute challenge.

I can see why that would be for you Greg; she uses multi-syllabic words and proper grammar.

she uses multi-syllabic words and proper grammar.
Is that notcheating when dealing with an anti-vaxer?

Shame on you Denice.

@jrkrideau, as we used to say in the Army, “If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying”. 😉
That, learned as a member of the E4 mafia. When I became an NCO, I properly trained that “mafia”, first and foremost, never steal. Stealing is illegal, dynamic reallocation of resources is not, it’s diversion of resources due to mission necessities. 😛

In the communication from WHO it states, “Health workers, especially those in communities, remain the most trusted advisor and influencer of vaccination decisions, and they must be supported to provide trusted, credible information on vaccines.”

Q. How can health workers be supported.

A. Provide improved screening checklists for vaccine contraindications. http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p4062.pdf

This has to be the first in the history of humanity, where epidemic refusal of drugs is threatening us with cataclysmic upheaval. Who will save us from ourselves by declaring a war on the refusal of drugs?!

Mikey, are you objecting to a pamphlet that provides a link to the ingredients of every vaccine?
Seriously, knowledge and preventing a preventable adverse reaction, such as a severe anaphylactic reaction, is a bad thing?
Oh, that’s right, championing of willful ignorance is your game, misguidance is your thing, factual things that actually prevent harm are very much not your thing.

You have admitted over and over your Vaccines don’t work. Otherwise if your vaccinated, you shouldn’t have to worry about catching anything. Where are HHS VACCINES SAFETY STUDIES presented as ordered by Congress? Oh that’s right, THEY’VE NEVER DONE THEM. They had to admit it in court. Aluminum has never been tested, as per Dr Stanley Plotkin godfather of Vaccines, in his court deposition. You should listen to all 9 hrs. It’s really something when he covers Aborted fetal harvesting for making Vaccines.

I can put up with the rest of you guys, but she is an absolute challenge.

Oh, look, the shithead who denied being Canadian has slithered back in.

What’s wrong, Gerg, not enough love in whatever cesspools you’ve been frequenting during your lovely person-days absence? Here’s a tip: Your time would be better spent trying to blow yourself, which at least has a chance of causing an arterial dissection and yielding the standing ovation that you you both crave and deserve.

Thx Narad for being so concerned, and offering your tip for how I can best secure self-satisfaction. As to my absence, I must confess I did not go very far, lurking behind the scenes here.

Lacking a reliable villain, I must say the show here was getting stale. I suppose Orac also saw that, and decided to have me back. Being so passionate about my return leads me to consider that a curt, badass as yourself also missed having a target. Perhaps the pent up frustration led you to blow yourself, and, hence, you can make the recommendation.

Being so passionate about my return leads me to consider that a curt, badass as yourself also missed having a target.

As usual, you are sorely mistaken.

@Narad, one cannot orally engage that which requires an atomic force microscope to actually find.
Alas, there isn’t an atomic force microscope available, they’re all busily searching for my mind, which was either lost in our relocation and thus, likely in the box of grid squares I’ve misplaced or lost while dealing with antivaxers in other forums and worse, in person.

I’m sorry narad, you are the one that’s in the poop with CDC’s Paul Thorsen. You have such credibility with criminal ties to support your version of science. No innert placebo safety studies either, HHS’s Gold Standard! Have you read IOM’s 2013 decision? It’s riveting.

I respect Denice Walter, and appreciate her efforts to support Orac and his minions.

@ Orac,

Please consider asking Denice Walter to write a guest post, on the vaccine/autism debate, to determine if she can drive “vaccine safety advocates” to fits.

Unlike you, Denice is smart enough to figure out how to set up a blog is she’s interested in writing a formal post about the topic.

“That there may be a subset of children who are at risk for regression if they have underlying mitochondrial dysfunction and are simultaneously exposed to factors that stress their mitochondrial reserve (which is critical for the developing brain). Such factors might include infections, as well as metabolic and immune factors, and vaccines.”
So, if I am reading this right, he thinks that vaccines can occasionally cause autism, but so could an infection that the vaccine would have prevented?
I think almost everyone would agree there may be a subset of children where vaccines might cause regression, but that if it exists, it is such a small subset that it doesn’t come out in the studies, and that the evidence so far does not support the idea.

there may be a subset of children where vaccines might cause regression, but that if it exists, it is such a small subset that it doesn’t come out in the studies, and that the evidence so far does not support the idea.

Yes, and yes. Huge metastudies with literally millions of subjects have failed to find any such subset.

Well, he found a subset. A subset of suspected N=1 and he hitched his wagon to it.
Alas, that which he hitched his wagon to was a hitching post, so it isn’t going anywhere.

@ Orac and his minions:

I appreciate your kind words.
I intend to drive alties mad ANY WAY I can

But “Why?” you might ask.
Because I’ve been fortunate to have a great education and diverse abilities and because it’s fun.
BUT there’s a serious side to this as well: not every anti-vaxxer/ woo-lover speaks up and self identifies- many more lurk silently.
I venture that some of them are not quite sure about what is real and need instruction concerning the error of their ways. If a delusional person speaks with a therapist, the latter should never reinforce the delusion. Au contraire

I read sincere yet misguided young parents following AoA or TMR and well-intentioned but misled older people listening attentively to every word a charlatan speaks. Can they not see that the ones whom they consult are bullshit artists out to collect admirers and/ or wealth? It’s so OBVIOUS to me. Sites like Quackwatch spell out the warning signs and SB sceptics explicate the scams in detail. I can do so also.
I am thoroughly enjoying the current brouhaha incited by alties trying to undermine and discredit sceptics’ efforts and Wikipedia’s campaign against quackery and anti-vaxx, . They are not pleased with us.

SRSLY. Wikipedia is not a free web advert for woo. They can say that a person went to a particular university/ school, where they worked, any publications they had and whether they were involved in any controversies, that is VERIFIABLE from non-promotional sources- unlike personal websites. It doesn’t tart up cruddy backgrounds or list excuses. ” I couldn’t go to an elite U because I was poor” or ” My research was rejected because of a vast, conspiracy that rules publication”. If you read bios without self-aggrandisement, they are piss poor.

I appreciate your kind words.
I intend to drive alties mad ANY WAY I can

But “Why?” you might ask.
Because I’ve been fortunate to have a great education and diverse abilities and because it’s fun.
BUT there’s a serious side to this as well: not every anti-vaxxer/ woo-lover speaks up and self identifies- many more lurk silently.
I venture that some of them are not quite sure about what is real and need instruction concerning the error of their ways. If a delusional person speaks with a therapist, the latter should never reinforce the delusion. Au contraire

Oh brother! Denice, tell you what, if I were to concede that there is nothing to the DOJ misrepresenting Zimmerman’s claim in court, and vaccines don’t cause autism, could you stop? Please?!

Poor Greg, he only communicates with pointless insults but becomes a snowflake when he is called out.

Zimmerman was wrong when he projected a N=1 case report (Hannah Poling) to other children who he has never met, much less examined.

Yeah, I’m one of many Wikipedia editors. You’ll know me by my signature, article wide {citation needed} tags. Occasionally, with warning that the tag will be allowed for a specific amount of time, then the claim is removed by me personally.

“Orac –please!, pretty please! — can you talk to ‘Management’ about retiring the ‘Denice Walter’s’ script! Seriously — I can put up with the rest of you guys, but she is an absolute challenge.”

Obviously, like Boxer (the horse in Orwell’s 1984), I must work harder.

Oddly, both were required reading when we went to school. When our children and we did marry young, at 20 and 21, somewhat dating our approximate age as trailing boomers, went to the same school and it was no longer even on the recommended reading list.
So, having incubated a habituation of reading, we gifted both children our old required reading list.
Both do quite well with history, critical thinking and many other areas that their generation is otherwise, failing.

And yes, honest error of memory, I’m sure. Boxer was indeed what glued Animal Farm together.
Nineteen eighty-four had no horses in it whatsoever. Likely, in such a dystopia, extinct early on in the perpetual warfare required to support the society.
One that I find alarming parallels in today, with our ongoing “Global War on Terror”, which can only expand as both the effects of warfare cause massive poverty, refugees, more poverty and that cycle perfecting a perfect storm of more recruits.

And HOW, pray tell did an article like this end up top on the google page when Dr. Andrew Zimmerman is typed in? Something smells very fishy. Discreditation attempts are not only a low and poor scientific response, they are also transparent to anyone who can do a small amount of reading between the ‘insolent fool’ headlines.

Well it’s a bit difficult to discredit his research and results supporting his hypothesis, since there isn’t any.

Because that’s what your existing search history with Google brings up. They tailor every search to you based on every search you’ve done before.
Try using “incognito mode” and search again. Or use another search engine like DuckDuckGo.

Heh, my Google searches turn up a mismash of results on many things, so varied are my searches and I also do use other search engines.
One secondary engine is dogpile, which searches other search engines for you.

Currently, Google thinks that I like biological warfare, due to some highly specific search terms being used and honestly, I was surprised that Google incorporated those technical terms.
Largely because, I am about to engage in biological warfare against a parasite. During relocation, we lodged in a hotel we’re literally trapped in, as we’re unwilling to transport bedbugs to a new home.
But, I found a couple of organisms that preferentially target a number of species, bedbugs being one.
Working out a more reliable delivery system, having found a pure spore source. Get it right, I can patent the delivery system.
I’m thinking $1.95 per unit licensing fee. I’m not greedy and am making decent enough money for our modest needs and regional cost of living expenses. That would fund grants for those who cannot afford the system and still provide a source to remove my retirement savings deficit.
And solve an ongoing and ignored problem. Might also have to adjust the organism choice, as resistance builds.

Totally OT but this may be of interest to readers here.

NeuroPointDX (NPDX), a Madison-based biomedical company, is developing blood tests for early diagnosis of Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD). According to their Facebook page, the NPDX ASD test is available in 45 US states. It does not appear to require FDA approval. On the Payments tab of the website, we learn that the test is currently self-pay (not covered by insurance), but for those who have difficulty meeting the costs, a Payment Plan is available, whereby the test is conducted after a down payment is received, but the results are not disclosed to the referring physician until two further payments have been made.

Dr. Dorothy Bishop has done an interesting review of the Biological Psychiatry paper (see http://deevybee.blogspot.com/) and submitted some follow-up questions to the company.

She raises some rather interesting questions about the paper and the research.

How could it not require FDA approval if it is intended to diagnose a condition? “We send it to a clinical lab and not directly to patients” doesn’t really seem like an answer. And Dr Bishop is right that there are some pretty giant holes in the research.

How could it not require FDA approval
Beats me but I don’t know anything about FDA legislation and regulation. It sounded funny but Deevee (Dr. Bishop) mentions something about a beta path. whatever that is.

I doubt that Dr. Bishop knows much more about the FDA than I do. She is a research psychologist at the University of Oxford. FDA regs are not likely high on her concerns.

Recently, as in within the past three weeks, the FDA sent a notice out on their mailing lists of a crackdown on many such sites.
A crackdown that was held up, due to some budgetary issues that are now temporarily resolved.
A few sites, the FDA will ignore, out of wisely spending tax dollars. You don’t spend millions to remove a pest that costs a few thousand dollars worth of damage. You do spend millions to remove a pest that costs tens to hundreds of millions to mitigate damage from.
Soon enough, a cease and desist letter will come, if they ignore that, court papers will invite senior management and their attorneys to a court of law if they continue, due to the specific claims.

I filed a few complaints about “FDA approved devices” to the FDA, got the form letter, questioned it on an official basis complaint, received the specific legal codes back, as I requested them, read them, am still working on some issues to formulate a proper complaint that will remove $20 unit nonsense claiming FDA approval (none is needed, under some specific language).
But, now I have a POC and via the global address list, have a team to address with specific violations.
Something learned within the DoD, once finding responsive team members, rotate projects, keeping the most responsive in reserve.

What do they test for in the blood? Yesterday evening I went to a presentation on the “State of Autism.” The first speaker spoke about risk, and the second did mention evaluation methods, but only in the context of using a team of trained persons like nurses, doctors and others to help fill the lack of services gap in rural areas: https://www.seattlechildrens.org/globalassets/documents/health-and-safety/autism/autism-201-2019-state-of-autism.pdf

There was absolutely nothing on blood testing. This blood test reads like the Theranos fiasco. (and I requested the book about that, Bad Blood, from my library)

All I know is what is in the review. You would, probably, have to get the paper, though from some of Dr Bishop’s comments, the real information may not be there. The company seems to be claiming that the testing algorithms are proprietary which, while understandable, is not reassuring.

I had not though of the Theranos fiasco. I don’t, currently, see it as that dodgy but deploying the test, as it is, seems pretty questionable.

Presently, the way the science is actually going, if there was a test for autism is would be a screen for the 99 genetic sequences known to be responsible for most of the cases along the spectrum. That is usually a saliva test (check the SPARK site posted above).

My son does have a genetic heart disorder, and seven years ago was tested for what was then the known sequences. It was a blood test, and he did not have any of the known sequences.

The report from the lab did reference a PubMed indexed paper with the list of genes they were looking for, and the papers supporting those. I would assume that the lab doing those blood tests have shared the papers they are using. Also, it should be several dozen papers… not one smallish study on just amino acids.

It seems to be very premature to market such a test. In fact, it is reminding me of Boyd Haley’s jumping on the amalgam mercury bandwagon by creating a dubious testing company: https://web.archive.org/web/20060117094835/http://www.altcorp.com:80/founders.htm

And later Haley was selling an industrial chelator to “treat” autism: https://respectfulinsolence.com/2010/01/18/pumping-autistic-children-full-of-an-ind/

I am seeing something that is kind of a mix of both Thoranos and Boyd Haley.

Actually, Thoranos was onto something, but it’s still beyond our technological capabilities.
Where they got nailed was, selling it as fait accompli and sending out samples for current technology testing, but still conning investors.
Claiming that their lab could do what was desired, but utterly incapable of doing so, so sending out samples is fraud.

Ooopsie, Animal Farm, which also should have taught researchers that if they lie down with antivaxers, they wind up with flea-bitten reputations.

About those “countless parents” who observed their children slip into autism after an inoculation:

They are obviously wrong: eyewitness accounts are notoriously untrustworthy- a whole area of cognitive psychology has sprung up based upon this decades ago.

In addition, there have been studies that show evidence of ASDs prior to the age often cited : differences in patterns of gaze, larger head size, different intra-facial proportions, brain wave differences, etc. As Chris links above, parents didn’t notice early differences that were noted by others over several instances. Other results show video evidence ( used in court to disqualify parental accounts- perhaps Cedillo?) There may be a BLOOD test soon ( noted here) and there are genetic markers and brain structure differences.**

So how would a simple vaccine change BRAIN STRUCTURE ? Or facial characteristics? And do so QUICKLY- as Wakefield purported?
Because it didn’t.

Instead, parents’ recall is faulty which may serve as a way to insulate them emotionally from the recognition that their children have development issues. these beliefs are bolstered by like advocates from anti-vax groups who share the same ideas. They disregard disconfirming evidence – like SB research and others’ observations. They brand SBM as corrupt and paid off. Truthfully, ASDs are noticed at a time ( 12-18 months) when kids usually become more much verbal and social thus, when it can’t be easily denied any longer.

Names written on a bus don’t equal reality.

** I do not link or cite each of these studies because Orac and his minions already know them and scoffers won’t bother anyway.
Easy to find.

@ Science Mom:

After reading hearing the endless crap I encounter on a daily basis, I absolutely HAVE to make sense or else I’d soon lapse into advanced LOLcat dialect.
And on occasion, I DO. But usually only to actual cats.

No need to follow the links, I’m familiar with most and will inquire later (it’s getting late now, but I’ll be tracking) if I can’t find one.
I know about slow changes being missed, saw enough of that during deployment changes to note such things in non-deployed service member families and what was off and gave well respected suggestions on having doctor checking on for one or two over the decades.
Entirely missed well compensated Grave’s disease in my own self, as well as some major issues in my wife, due to their being gradual and quite important.
And I’m infamous for self-reporting issues, professional, medical or security.
One medical issue, the usage of opioids on duty, was attempted to justify ending my military career, the officer who staked his reputation upon his evaluation found that the G level officer was ordered to retire, as one of the authors of the NIDA guidelines was someone I was working with on the civilian side at the time and even he said that the opinion was B sub S and wrote a letter back, in his official capacity.

Yeah, I have trophies. No bears, no deer carcasses, but a few stars, birds and assorted metal bars, along with stripes.
Mutual Assured Destruction only works in a mutual environment. In some environments, where meticulous notes are kept and retained, measurements are recorded for record, times and conversations are documented, the wise know not to hitch their wagon onto a stanchion of the Titanic.
Because, I’ve always lacked that small match temperament. 😉

Wink to Culture novel series followers.

Regression may actually be a typical feature of ASD: it just depends on how it is defined and how the developmental course is evaluated. Apparently the subtle early signs of aberrant development may be missed by all except trained researchers.

The authors of a recently-completed prospective study of the trajectory of development in ASD concluded: “The present findings suggest that declining developmental skills, consistent with a regressive onset pattern, are common in children with ASD and may be more the rule than the exception.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29524310

Sally Ozonoff, the lead author of the recent study, previously reported that “Although repeated evaluation documented loss of skills in most infants with ASD, most parents did not report a regression in their child’s development.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20410715

Ozonoff also concluded that her findings “call into question the reliability of parent report of onset patterns, particularly regressive patterns or declining trajectories of development.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5832544/

@ brian:

I wasn’t aware of these studies, thanks.

One of the studies illustrates how development is similar in both groups at 6 months but declines in one group at 12 months. Parents may have general ideas about what is “average” for development at one year because of family lore and child care books- plus it’s a special landmark .Parents’ reports are unreliable- many parents don’t notice regression. The last study you quoted mentions Loftus’ work- which of course I refer to above- including when subjects believe an event took place more recently than it actually did.

Distraught parents, for whatever reason, may sincerely believe that they are correct even when videos/ medical reports show otherwise. IN ADDITION, those who follow anti-vax sites and authors may be primed to report a set course of events by their cohorts’ reportage. .It might be interesting for someone to look into the content of stories produced by believers in vaccine damage ( or videoed by the VAXXED team) to evaluate how much they vary in regard to timing ( age and time after vaccination) and symptomology. TMR produced videos from one of the Autism One conventions where the stories sound remarkably alike.
There is a surplus of material like this on the net.

Frankly, I’d be willing to express a minimum of three sigma without actual investigation, yes.
Willing, as I’d be perfectly willing, given study money to support the research, to actually refine it to a far more secure certainty.
And I’m the farthest person in the universe we know to be trigger happy.

I am very pleased to be singled out by an anti-vaxxer: I must be doing my job well.
Note to Orac: can I get a raise? I want a Range Rover.

I imagine that Greg is upset because he knows on some level that he can’t ever win- we have the data.
But here’s something to consider, even if on some level he understands, he STILL misrepresents and insults people with ASDs by calling them “brain damaged’; He should know better: I thought that he had a degree in psych. People with ASDs develop differently but that is not damage. Whether an autistic person has an intellectual disability or is average or above, it’s not because of brain damage. This is another rotten fruit of anti-vax theorising; vaccines kill brain cells.
.
People who have been deprived of oxygen or who have had a head injury can have brain damage. That’s not autism.
Autism starts early on in development because of its genetic roots which can be inherited or de novo variation.

Although “brain damage” is not an insult, it is wrong to mis-characterise people who don’t suffer from this problem as having it.
(Just like you shouldn’t say someone has heart disease when they don’t.)
Anti-vaxxers label autistic kids of all intellectual abilities as such. They also suggest that vaccines or doctors
“ruined” or “destroyed” their child: “Then he was gone”. That attitude and these words de-value and de-humanise them.
Autistics are not wrecked people or damaged goods.

That’s it. I have to go see a movie.

You’re going to need to, because that thing ain’t going to bolt right in. Of course, the first thing is obtaining a Scout. They’re remarkably versatile, though. Would you go spring-over-axle? That always cracks me up in the city, but then again, I find sitting in the park watching people try to parallel-park to be a reasonable pastime. There was one guy with a spotter who needed three tries to get into an ample space.

Last words that I heard from the spotter: “You’re a waste of car, man.”

You’re going to need to, because that thing ain’t going to bolt right in

Agreed but then I have the shop space & equipments to do so (yes! I’m dead serious). Finding the scout is another matter entirely but I’ve been shopping for used diesel pickups for my business and plan to buy one in the next 3 months (most likely a ford with a powerstroke 6.4 or 6.7L engine because they can be had for 2000$); of course, I expect to have to rebuild the engine and transmission because these are road trucks from governments (city and or province) which I think they were driven like rentals but these are bargains compared to Dodges and GM…

Alain

Finding the scout is another matter entirely

Indeed. They’re either rusted out, have been living in the desert, or been retrofitted with Fiberglas.

of course, I expect to have to rebuild the engine and transmission because these are road trucks from governments

I’m dead certain that the nighttime campus shuttle buses are rejects from North Korea.

Are you psychic?
I looked at images of the Scout- it looks a lot like my ancient Jeep. People frequently leave notes on it with their numbers to see if I want to sell it. It runs well but sometimes when I drive it down the cliffs I wonder if I can get back up, So far so good, I imagine you have a good idea of where I live ( a secret because of alties’ interference) and although it’s not exactly the outback, there are loads of RRs, Jeeps, and off road friendly vehicles on the roads.
I guess drivers want to keep the Maseratis and Jaguars ( which I see often) out of the weather.

I had to look for a picture of the Scout 800A. That was the newer sissified version. The Scout I owned was older. I don’t remember it if even had a model number. It did have three shifter sticks, which rather confused people – one for the transmission, one for the transfer case for the rear axle and another for the front. 152 cubic inch 4 cylinder – basically the 304 V-8 cut in half.
I learned to drive in an International Travelall.

sometimes when I drive it down the cliffs I wonder if I can get back up

That’s why the PTO winch is de rigueur.

That was the newer sissified version. The Scout I owned was older

Well, if you’re going to be like that, the only choice is one of the USPS Scouts. It was the Scout II that was sissified, although I have a fond memory of sitting in the back of one with actor Billy O’Leary and a bottle of Yukon Jack as the family tooled around Oak Park, Illinois, checking out the ostentatious Christmas displays and occasionally hurling epithets. I ran into him in the oddest places, such as on a flight back to Chicago from Albany, which I was on to return from a 350 cc motorcycle trip in the opposite direction, riding behind the driver with a toaster oven strapped to the back. The story has even weirder elements (do not buy Enerjets candies), but I think I’m going to have another busy, very low paying day.

“They also suggest that vaccines or doctors “ruined” or “destroyed” their child: “Then he was gone”. That attitude and these words de-value and de-humanise them. Autistics are not wrecked people or damaged goods.”

This deserves a thousand up votes. Enjoy the movie.

“Ruined,” “destroyed” and “gone” are fine examples of the positive messages that Greg tells us the antivax world is full of (among other things).

Some other positive messages from the antivax world include:

Microbes in my daughters body are making metals: https://respectfulinsolence.com/2009/05/14/the-price-of-anti-vaccine-fanaticism-par/
Stabbing a child to death is the act of a “extremely devoted caregiver” https://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2015/02/17/yes-the-video-who-killed-alex-spourdalakis-video-whitewashes-a-murder/

So how exactly are we to refer to that group of individuals that a quarter are nonverbal, over 60% are mentally retarded or borderline retarded, and close to 90% grow-up unemployed or underemployed? When speaking of them, should we also banish terms such as disabled, injured, damaged, and all others that cannote unhealthiness or unfitness. How should we also speak of those with Down’s, CP, and physical disabilities, etc — and with many of those individuals faring much better than autistic individuals. Discussing them, are we also forbidden from using any discriptors that may suggest disability? Will autism-vaccine denialism lead us so far that it becomes. sinful to describe anyone as unhealthy or unfit — or just autistic people?!

Greg,

So how exactly are we to refer to that group of individuals

How about showing respect for individuals, instead of referring to groups?

I know this a novel concept for you: every individual has potential.

Your choice of language denies them that.

So how exactly are we to refer to that group of individuals that a quarter are nonverbal

I see that you still don’t understand that being semiliterate does not bolster your existence. Why, Gerg, why? You don’t have a horse in the public-health race. Your putative children aren’t on the spectrum, you exhibit no signs of giving a shit about anybody, quite possibly including yourself, so what’s with the periodic attempts at money shots?

@Greg:

So how exactly are we to refer to that group of individuals that a quarter are nonverbal, over 60% are mentally retarded or borderline retarded, and close to 90% grow-up unemployed or underemployed?

Citations needed for all your numbers. But I suspect you rectally sourced them.

Long hard day at work today (the fab shop where I can rebuild an engine and transmission)…but that aside, I want to comment on parallel parking.

Even though my eyesight need a lot of work, I know a few friends and family members who can teach me to park a semi (without trailers that is, initially) between two other vehicules or walls with 2 inches of clearances on each sides.

Alain

Autism Speaks, Greg? Really?
The “Autism Speaks” behind the scaremongering “Autism every day”, that caused an outcry in the autistic community?
Here’s what was said about nonverbal autistics:

An estimated one-third of people with autism are nonverbal.

“Estimated”.
As for:

<

blockquote>31% of children with ASD have an intellectual disability (intelligence quotient [IQ] <70) with significant challenges in daily function, 25% are in the borderline range (IQ 71–85).
I could not see a source for this claim anywhere on the page.
In addition, here’s something you missed from that page:

Over the last two decades, extensive research has asked whether there is any link between childhood vaccinations and autism. The results of this research are clear: Vaccines do not cause autism.

Kinda blows your argument about vaccines causing autism apart, doesn’t it?

I consider how many ASD personnel are hired by just the NSA, then notice how many are employed overall by the DoD and other federal agencies, to wonder how worthless such people aren’t.
Yes, there are those severely disabled and incapable of unsupported life, matching various other issues in normal life, such as accidents, diseases recovered from, etc, but function or do not.
Making me wonder how such parents want to dispose of their own children.

I’ve long said, each and every person, indeed, organism has a purpose. It’s true, we have a closed circuit environment, for everything other than energy, which is provided by a sun.
Such is true in society, if the society is willing to seek a purpose for an individual. Ours isn’t. Someone who doesn’t have an obvious purpose gets sidelined, be it a new Albert Einstein or Donald Trump without a wealthy dad.*
I have zero problems forming a team to assess and assign and reassign as is needed, those who are “problematic” and it’d be on the cheap and work gainfully for our entire society.
Sociopaths even can find a position, not as much to their preference of becoming some mythical emperor, but being respected in their specific and regulated positions of leadership, in very narrow areas.
Those outside, such as psychotic or still untreatably schizophrenic, we take proper care of until we understand the pathology better and can treat them and admit them back into society.
That, in its entirety is within our capabilities, if we actually frigging bother to do so for a change.
Alas, I expect the usual. Prison or homelessness and ignoring “a problem” that could be easily addressed with modest effort.

In Einstein, he was dyslexic, Trump, propped up by dad’s money, repeatedly. And also, someone we, as a couple met in person, long before unreality TV. What you see *is precisely what you get, showman, useless in business, bankrupting three casinos and let’s face it, owning a casino is essentially near to having a license to print money. Screws contractors, stockholders and faced precisely zero banks willing to loan to him or his organization. I cannot comment farther, as that involves information that’s unrelasable.
But, an unsettling message was sent, a Nixon enabler was just entered into our legal system and the response was telling.

Yes, in response to Sharyl Attkisson’s report using his affidavit as a tool to spin an antivaccine conspiracy theory, Dr. Zimmerman issued a press release through the University of Massachusetts Medical School

I only used my notary stamp once, to facilitate the sale of a friend’s fiancée’s car when she was out of state. Yes, I have just provided compromat on my own behalf. I’m also open to offers from anyone who would do me the courtesy of stealing my identity.

I did some digging. The supposed source for that number is a Chicago Tribune Article dated 15 May 2012.

So for the new study, researchers collected data on 680 young U.S. adults with an ASD, along with nearly 1,400 young people with learning disabilities, speech or language impairments or intellectual impairment.
All were between the ages of 19 and 23, and had been in special education programs when they were in school.
Overall, the study found, 35 percent of young adults with ASDs had not gone to school or held a job since high school.

These were people who “had been in special education programs when they were in school.” Already a nonrepresentative sample. I was never in special ed. And “35 percent of young adults with ASDs had not gone to school or held a job since high school.” That is NOT 90%.
The website you linked to is “The Hero Effect”. The source for your 90% unemployment rate among autistic adults is “Rising Tide Car Wash”, an organisation that hires autistics to work in Car Washes.
Even though they say:

Currently, unemployment among people with autism is approximately 90 percent…

again, no cite for this figure. Also, it dates back to 2014.
Frankly, I find the evidence you cited unconvincing.

Gerg, could you kindly learn how the fuck to use the “reply” thingamabob correctly? G-ddamn morons have little business using the term ‘retard’.

If you ever worked in FANX, The Friendship ANneX of the NSA, you’d know that was BS.
We jokingly referred to them as “wall sliders”, as that is literally what they did, mumbling equations they were pondering, while going to or from the bathroom or lunch. Others worked in IT, which for some new managers, likely soon to be gone, fared poorly in organizing the brilliant IT wonks.
The best analogy that I could use, despite not working in that specific facility, working on occasion in similar environments, with higher functioning persons, it’s like trying to herd cats, unless you learn predilections of distraction. Just where a specific team member will be expected to get distracted, when another will go off course and cause problems, etc.

Autism Speaks, Greg? Really?
The “Autism Speaks” behind the scaremongering “Autism every day”, that caused an outcry in the autistic community?
Here’s what was said about nonverbal autistics:

Actually Julian, those AS’ figures are actually drawn from the CDC’s 1 in 59 prevalence data.

Julian, indeed the stat on autism and intellectual diability is coming from the latest CDC’s prevalence study.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/67/ss/ss6706a1.htm

As to the finding that a third of autistic individuals are nonverbal, that appears to be coming from an Autism Speaks’ Health Report. They provide a link to the report which you can download, and at the end of the report it gives citations for their stats.

@Narad

Don’t know if the problem is at my end or at the site’s, but there is not always a reply tab for some of the comments, and leaving me to reply at neighbouring comments.

So I read through the CDC report. Something caught my eye.

<

blockquote>ADDM Network data have shown a shift toward children with ASD with higher intellectual ability (9–11), as the proportion of children with ASD whose intelligence quotient (IQ) scores fell within the range of intellectual disability (ID) (i.e., IQ <70) has decreased gradually over time.
I interpret that as meaning that as the diagnostic criteria were broadened, the percentage of those less severely disabled fell.
There’s also another consideration. The estimated proportion of autistics in the population is now 1 in 37, not the 1 in 59 listed. This raises an obvious confounder: those on the spectrum without intellectual disability are probably less likely to be diagnosed. Speaking from my own experience, I was only diagnosed at 21.

…there is not always a reply tab for some of the comments, and leaving me to reply at neighbouring comments.

The Comments system is configured as follows. It allows you to comment, to “Reply” to a comment (indent-1), and to “Reply” to a reply under a comment (indent-2). At indent-2, it doesn’t allow replies. You need to scroll up to the reply that the reply is replying too, and click its “Reply” button. That will put your comment in the same thread with the same indentation as the reply you are replying to.
Lastly, I must say I’m somewhat impressed. You’ve actually learnt to back your claims up.

leaving me to reply at neighbouring comments

Jesus Christ, you fucking hit-and-run halfwit, you either scroll the fuck up to the appropriate one or go down to the bottom. What you don’t fucking do is randomly deposit your head-turds into unrelated exchanges.

Seriously, Jules? I just script it.
Seriously, I’m considered a bit Uncle Odd, but otherwise normal.
And I write scripts and parsers that do that job for me, if it becomes tedious and currently, I’m considering using an older database and response set version, just for you.
Long ago and frankly, now, considering your response, likely before you were born, I wrote scripts that wrote scripts. Needless to say, figuring out a resultant set of policy in an environment that has thousands of daughters, I could merely figure it out in my head and have done so and am quite socially ept.
I’m infamously politically incorrect, but acceptable in SJW environments. Equally socially incorrect in conservative environments.

Think before your cranialrectal inversion turns things into a brain fart.
Reading your words, I know that you have a well operating brain, diverted into a trail of thought that’s entangled and incorrect. Drill your way out, you can do it.

“So how exactly are we to refer to that group of individuals that a quarter are nonverbal, over 60% are mentally retarded or borderline retarded, and close to 90% grow-up unemployed or underemployed?”

Impressively fast backpedaling. Tell us again about how the pro-disease side full of positive messages?

I know this a novel concept for you: every individual has potential.

Box, do tell then of the odds of the average autistic child living.up to his ‘potential’? Some studies point to a depressing 1 in 17 improving after EI, and usually those were the high-functioning cases, that it is argued would’ve likely improved even without therapy. While you’re at it Box, please explain what exactly gives me web-feet for pointing these facts out. As far as I can see, my ultimate sin is one of not participating in the fairytale that suits the vaccination dogma.

As far as I can see, my ultimate sin is one of not participating in the fairytale that suits the vaccination dogma.

You’re a white surban punk.

Greg

Box, do tell then of the odds of the average autistic child living.up to his ‘potential’?

It’s a lot less if people like you continue to demean and dehumanize them at every opportunity.

Part of me is tempted just to say facetiously Never tell me the odds. Another part of me wants me to ask you for a link to those studies, because I acknowledge that my opinion has developed starting from “anecdata.”

But ultimately I have to go back to Never tell me the odds.. Because this is the bottom line of why I believe I am right, and I believe you are wrong.

Treat your fellow human beings with respect.

@Greg:

While you’re at it Box, please explain what exactly gives me web-feet for pointing these facts out.

Are they factual, though? You’ve failed to provide supporting evidence despite being challenged numerous times to do so.

Greg,
I guess we refer to someone with a disability the way they or their family want us to refer to them. With respect and without condescension – which can actually be hard to do.
As to what to call their disability, again, what ever they want, as the young girl with CP said to me once to put me in my place when I was pussyfooting around her diagnosis – “you know I’m retarded, right?” (with great vocal exaggeration and a sly smirk). No I didn’t call her that, that’s her right alone.

Wow, one set of proclaimed odds, zero reference that refracts against multiple search engines, using an unbiased source or worse, the worst biased source available.
So, you resorted to resorting to rectally procured sources, Andy.
Nobody will shake your hand now, since you’re likely against hand washing.

@Shelly, this one’s the most likely to abuse such a woman, resulting in a live birth.
Just as was recently observed in horror from a persistent vegetative state woman, who was equally raped.
Yet another early stage INCEL, due to idiocy, as usual.

Speaking of non-useful idiots in the antivax galaxy:

Holistic Doctor Richard Brownstein has written a response to a New York Times* op-ed regarding the public health threat posed by antivaccine ideology. Dick is upset that it criticizes antivaxers for espousing pseudoscience, but damages his case by regaling his followers with a torrent of antivax pseudoscience.

https://www.drbrownstein.com/nyt-op-ed-on-vaccines:-a-pseudoscience-mess/

I know it’s a lot to ask of our esteemed host, but it’d be fun if Orac (or one of his minions) could attend Brownstein’s upcoming lecture in Livonia, MI on Saturday February 2d and report the goings-on. Brownstein is scheduled to speak on such hot topics as Ozone, the Miracle Therapy; Hormone Balancing; stem cell treatments and of course, the Perils of Vaccines.

Maybe there will also be pie.

*it’s becoming a thing among antivaxers to refer to the NYT as “the failing New York Times”, in apparent adulation of Donald Trump, who has used if not originated the term.

Unfortunately it’s $25 in advance, $35 at the door.* I wouldn’t pay for it myself (there are better things to support with the money, like puppies) and I suppose it’s too late for a gofundme campaign. 🙁

*I wonder how much dough these Brave Maverick Doctors (including Suzanne Humphries) make off lecture fees.

I was a healthy happy 40 year old
I took good care of my health and had no bad habits that could compromise my immune system
Until nine days after I was conned by my local doctor to take the flu shot in the UK
Because I had caught a chest infection
Well nine days after that shot I was looking like I had been run over by a truck my legs looked like a dead persons legs they went from slim to three times the size in a matter of minutes and all the blood from my organs spilled and leaked into my 8th layer of skin it looked like someone battered my legs with a baseball bat and I couldn’t walk
I was carried to my sisters house and she thought I had been run over by a car
I had huge pockets of massive lumps of fluid the size of a boiled egg and instant arthritis it’s been fifteen years of utter hell since that shot
My doctor denied it was the shot I was diagnosed as having LEUKOCLASTIC VASCULITIS
a rare form of vasculitis
I know it was that shot that damaged me and the way I found out was a friend was handed out the tiniest leaflet when she got her shot and at the very bottom of the leaflet it said this shot may cause vasculitis 🤬😤😓
In the past fifteen years of utter hell I’ve had vasculitis on every part of my body including my wind pipe eyes face mouth ears head and hands
I was told that I had to orange card my rare vasculitis on a government web site I did then after that I couldn’t find life insurance under £50 a month
my doctor knew that leaflet said may cause vasculitis yet she lied to me and said no no no it’s not from the shot so did the vascular doctors
Seriously how stupid do they think people are why did they all lie
I know my body …it’s mine
so then they start to tell me my immune system is attacking me and I shouldn’t try to make it stronger I said to hell with you lot your all liars I have since built up my immune system naturally
and my now my flu shot given rare disease only flares up a few times a month instead of everyday
It’s poison ☠️ and if I listened to lies I would’ve been put on more poison to supposedly fix it my friend is dying from it
She gets it in her brain now and because they know it causes vasculitis they passed a law saying you can’t sue them for flu shot immune disease get a grip it’s blatantly obvious and the leaflet speaks hundreds I’m not a anti vaxer I’m just honest and I’ll see those liars on judgement day Gods revenge will sort them all right out
They had no right taking fifteen years of my life and lying about what they done to me and I’m sure millions of others 🤬🤨😤

all the blood from my organs spilled and leaked into my 8th layer of skin

Was this the first time it was determined that you had eight layers of skin?

I suppose from the package insert. Mostly things that are at the bottom of such insert are very rare. Besides, they mention everything people have reported I think.

Leukocytoclastic vasculitis may be triggered by a variety of different factors, though approximately half of cases are idiopathic. The triggering factors include infections, certain drugs or chemicals, systemic disease, or neoplastic disease. Aside from idiopathic etiology, infections and drugs are the most common triggers.

Of the infectious triggers, streptococcal upper respiratory tract infection is the most common. Other infectious triggers include, but are not limited to, Mycobacterium, hepatitis B and C, Staphylococcus aureus, Chlamydia, Neisseria, and HIV.

emphasis mine

Soruce:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK482159/

A few good years from now, more doctors will have the courage to speak up on behalf of those people who are not fit to be vaccinated due to elevated risk of severe side-effects. Because there are such individuals, and no matter how hard you people try to deny the truth, it will still come out. We no longer live in an age where information is a luxury, and as a result, more and more people will ask questions, and read drug inserts. The pharmaceutical companies will have to reasses their view on compulsory vaccination and the medical community will be obliged to develop genetic tests that identify vulnerable individuals for whom vaccination might bring more harm than good. Either this, or we’ll face an antivaxxing epidemic that will have unprecedented consequences.

Some people have been harmed by vaccines. Some have received compensation by proving this in court without shadow of a doubt. Once you zealots accept this, vaccination will stand a chance to still be a staple of modern medicine since it’s clear not everyone is at risk for developing complications. The key is to identify those that are.

What a whole bunch of straw men.
Let me make this plain: NOBODY here denies that vaccines can cause injuries. What we fight against are the claims that –
vaccine injuries are far more common than thought;
Autism, ADHD, OCD and other things are caused by vaccination.
By the way, pharmaceutical companies earn far more from treating cases of vaccine preventable diseases than they do from even 10 vaccine doses. In addition, they do not set vaccine policies, so that’s a pathetic claim.
Nothing in your comment is new or fresh. Every claim and argument you made has been addressed here multiple tiems already.

Thanks for firing the word “idiot” at Dr Zimmerman and that cnspiracy theorist reporter. These fools need to stop sharing their scientific findings with the public before getting your permission! I hope you can discredit and dismiss any conflicting science before we learn anything from it.

What findings? Necromancy?
Disingenuous, childish, really disgraceful behavior. Shame on you and your hit piece parading as journalism. You and your Masters at Sinclair suffer very t rough justice for your this criminal cover-up. Does it pay well?

Whay findings? Necromancy?
Such a disingenuous, childish, science-free response. Just what I’d expect from a cheap propagandist. Watch out, I’m not the only reader who can recognize a cheap hit piece straight away.
Does Sinclair pay well?

“Necromancy” is a term used when someone comments on an old post that hasn’t been commented on in a while. That was what I was referring to.
Secondly, you used the phrase “scientific findings” but gave us no examples of these scientific findings. I was asking you to give examples.

Erik obviously has not been around RI much, because:

Sinclair ( see Wikipedia ‘Sinclair Broadcast Group’) is a generally conservative ( US style) outlet that has been frequently criticised for its business operations.
RI, its fearless leader, Orac, and most of its more vocal adherents are decidedly NOT conservative in any sense of the word.
RI’s focus is not political ( although sometimes you could fool me) but is instead Science Based scepticism
many of RI’s regulars are not based in the US and couldn’t tell Sinclair from Fox ( although at times that could be difficult)

Ooops! I left out SHARYL ATTKISSON who is featured at Sinclair and much critiqued at RI ( see articles about her at search box)

I am not pro disease or an anti vaccination person .on the contrary. I have worked at three different health departments over the last 16 years and have been promotion vaccination during that time .Vaccinations save millions, I fully believe that.

That being said, October 17th 2011, I was the mom of four kids. An 11 year old with high functioning autism (he was born autistic, no regression, fully vaccinated with no adverse reaction), and three healthy girls, one was 9 and a set if twins two weeks away from their fifth birthday. Had a parent teacher conference from the preschool for my twins – it was glowing .

October 18th 2011 my twins had their last diptheria, tetanus, and pertussis vaccination. Within hours they both had fevers and we’re covered with hives, but it continued withy younger twin. The arm she got the vaccine in developed blisters, and swelled so large the skin cracked and bled. The screaming started. Oh the non stop screaming. She screamed until she woiwo pass out from exhaustion, only to wake up and scream some more. Did what the Dr suggested – benidryl, Tylenol, Ibuprofen. Three days of this. When the screaming stopped she wasn’t the same. No eye contact. Couldn’t focus. Went back to school and couldn’t function in the classroom .Constantly thirsty and hungry.

She eventually went on to be diagnosed with ADD/ADHD combined type, PDD-NOS (a type of autism), Graves disease, and pancreatic insufficient. Dr Lockey, a well respected immunologist in Tampa, Fl, stated that her immune system reacted poorly to the vaccination and went into overdrive and attacked her brain, thyroid, and pancreas. She did not have any problems we could see on October 17th. When the fever, swelling and screaming finally went away she couldn’t function.

I am still pro vaccination. They still save millions, but this does happen.

I don’t know how anyone can say they are safe for all. You all rant about these conspiracies you think are happening when in actuality numerous people are screaming about being injured. What do they have to gain? I know there is a lot to gain by mandating them. I was injured by them after being mandated and the diseases you all are afraid of like the measels and mumps I had without a problem. I really got to wonder what’s the deal. More money without any regard for others. When anyone gets injured you deny its that and blame the victim. For heavens sakes the CDC is corrupt if anything. For some reason they know everything too except for the cause of most diseases. Now that’s something to dwell upon.

“I don’t know how anyone can say they are safe for all.”

Who said that? Vaccines are not safe for some because specific medical issues, like getting chemotherapy.

“I know there is a lot to gain by mandating them.”

Please state the jurisdiction and law that mandates vaccines. In the USA, the states set vaccination rules for children to attend school, and homeschooling is always an option. Many medical care facilities require vaccination of their employees to protect their patients. You have the option of working elsewhere.

“I was injured by them after being mandated and the diseases you all are afraid of like the measels and mumps I had without a problem.”

How did your claim with the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program go? Odd how you suffered from a vaccine, but not from measles… which used kill several hundred kids each in the USA, and is now plowing through parts of Europe.

“For heavens sakes the CDC is corrupt if anything.”

Yet, as far as we know from your grammar and spelling you could be sitting somewhere in Russia posting this stuff all over the place. Do they pay you well? How is the weather in St. Petersburg:
https://www.rferl.org/a/are-russian-trolls-saving-measles-from-extinction/29768471.html

I think we could all benefit from less inflammatory discourse on this topic which quickly digresses into ideologies, name calling, and fear mongering.

Everyone has a responsibility to educate themselves on the diseases and the vaccines, then decide their personal risk:reward for getting, or not getting, a vaccination. Assuming someone has done their research, they should have the freedom to do what they choose with their bodies.

“Everyone has a responsibility to educate themselves on the diseases and the vaccines,”

Please tell us all about your research. Just post the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers not on the Dwoskin payroll with the relative risk of the disease versus any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule.

Ideologies plural? No. On one side is over a century of medical science proving the dangers of the diseases we vaccinate against and the effectiveness of vaccines in preventing them. On the other is ideology, lies and exaggerations about the harms of vaccines, and downplaying of the harms of serious diseases.
“Educate yourself” is an antivaccine trope. It invariably means “read this bunch of websites that lie about vaccine and vaccination”.

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