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SB 277 and bogus medical exemptions to vaccine mandates in California

In 2015 California passed SB 277, which eliminated nonmedical exemptions to school vaccine mandates. Unfortunately quacks are writing bogus exemptions. What can be done?

Here in the states, yesterday was a holiday, the 4th of July. This year, because the 4th fell on a Thursday, for many in the country this is the equivalent of a four day weekend, not unlike the Thanksgiving weekend. Given that, I had debated about whether or not to post anything today, but there was a story published this week that I just can’t allow to pass uncommented on, and next week would likely be too late. As longtime readers know, a frequent topic on this blog in 2015 was SB 277, the law passed in California that eliminates nonmedical so-called “personal belief exemptions” (PBEs, or, as I like to call them, “I don’t wanna” exemptions) to school vaccine mandates. After SB 277, nonmedical exemptions were no longer allowed in California. The law was basically fallout from the Disneyland measles outbreak. The outbreak began over the Christmas holidays of 2014 and continued for several months into 2015, ultimately spanning eight states and two additional countries (Canada and Mexico). Because of where it happened and how many states it encompassed, the Disneyland measles outbreak made it politically possible for California legislators to do something that would definitely not have been possible before the outbreak: Pass a law outlawing PBEs. Prior to the outbreak, only two states (Mississippi and West Virginia) allowed only medical exemptions, while the other 48 states allowed some combination of religious or personal belief exemptions. The same thing is happening now with the current massive ongoing measles outbreak, with Maine and New York having passed laws eliminating religious/PBEs.

SB 277 took full effect at the beginning of the 2016-2017 school year, and for a while things went quite well. Early results showed that SB 277 was working swimmingly. The percentage of children not vaccinated plummeted. There was, however, a troubling sign when the study showing the improvement in vaccine uptake was published two years ago. There was a significant uptick in the medical exemption rate. At the time it was speculated that some of the increase in the medical exemption rate was due to parents of children who did have medical conditions for which a medical exemption was legitimately indicated but had just opted out using a PBE because it was so much easier. (At the time, no muss, no fuss, no doctor’s note required.)

On the other hand, as I noted right after SB 277 passed, the biggest flaw in the bill was (and is) that it allows any doctor to write a letter requesting a medical exemption, and the exemption would be granted. It wasn’t long before Dr. Bob Sears led the way teaching parents how to secure medical exemptions for questionable indications. Soon, there was a cottage industry of quacks selling bogus medical exemptions to school vaccine mandates, even online. As a result, Senator Richard Pan, who co-sponsored SB 277 and was the driving force behind getting it passed, introduced SB 276, a law that would mandate a database of medical exemptions, so that the state can keep track of which doctors are issuing the most medical exemptions, and require that requests for medical exemptions to school vaccine mandates be approved by the State Public Health Officer or designee, who could reject exemptions not supported by science. Unfortunately, SB 276 hasn’t been passed yet, and the fake medical exemptions racket is, if anything, more profitable than ever. Indeed, five doctors wrote one third of the medical exemption letters in eight Bay Area school districts.

Still, despite the medical exemption grifters, since SB 277 took effect, vaccine uptake increased, which was the intended effect; that is, until now. Earlier this week, the Los Angeles Times published a story, California vaccination rate drops as doctors grant more exemptions. Is there a link? The news, for once, is not good:

California’s kindergarten vaccination rate dropped again in the most recent school year as more parents sought permission from doctors to not immunize their children, according to new state data. The troubling trend comes amid a national measles outbreak as well as intense debate over whether California should strengthen its school immunization laws.

And, consistent with what we know about the antivaccine movement:

In the school year that ended last month, 4,812 kindergartners had obtained medical exemptions from vaccines, a 70% increase from two years ago, when the vaccination law first took effect, according to data from the California Department of Public Health. The data suggest that large concentrations of medical exemptions are being granted to school children in relatively affluent parts of the state, such as Santa Cruz and Sonoma counties.

The California Department of Public Health even provides a handy-dandy interactive map to show where vaccine uptake rates are the lowest, and its report for the 2018-2019 school year, just finished:

Reported immunization rates remain at high levels but have decreased over the last two years. The proportion of students attending kindergarten in 2018-2019 reported to have received all required vaccines is 94.8%, a 0.3 percentage point decrease from the 2017-2018 school year, a 0.8 percentage point decrease from the 2016-2017 school year, and a 4.6 percentage point increase over five years since 2013-2014. The 2018-2019 rate of 94.8% is the third highest reported for the current set of immunization requirements for kindergarten, which began in the 2001-2002 school year.

The report also noted that the school districts with the most medical exemptions were Los Angeles Unified, Capistrano Unified and San Diego Unified, with the rate of medical exemptions in Capistrano Unified being 10 times higher than that of LA Unified. Another finding was that around 1,500 schools had kindergarten vaccination rates less than 95%, which for measles is the usual estimated rate needed for herd immunity, while medical exemption rates equalled or exceeded 30% in kindergarten at 17 schools. Basically, to sum up, in 2018-19, 0.9% of kindergarten students had medical exemptions, which was up from 0.7% in 2017-2018 and 0.5% in 2016-2017. The data are summarized here:

Yes, it is true that only around 20% of the unvaccinated or undervaccinated is explained by medical exemptions, but this nonetheless matters. Why does it matter? Because these exemptions are not spread evenly. As we’ve known and seen for so long, the vaccine-hesitant and antivaxers cluster, and this results in areas of low vaccine uptake in the middle of a state with generally high vaccine uptake. That’s where the risk of outbreaks is the highest. That’s where outbreaks tend to happen.

And here’s how the schools with low vaccination rates cluster:

As the LA Times notes:

Dr. Monica Asnani, a Miracle Mile pediatrician and member of the advocacy group Vaccinate California, said during her 18-year career, she has written one medical exemption, which was due to a child carrying a neurological disorder. “I’ve asked my colleagues and they have either written none or one or two. Then you see reports of doctors with dozens, which is far outside the norm,” she said. Asnani said that a few years ago, she heard a radio ad from a doctor who was offering patients an exemption if they visited his office and paid $180. When parents come to her seeking vaccine exemptions, she said, she explains that the concern that prompted them to seek a waiver is not a valid medical reason. “So they go and find another doctor who will write one,” she said.

Some of these doctor shoppers are even celebrities, like Jennifer Biel.

Also:

Among kindergartners, schools with high medical exemptions rates tend to be Waldorf schools, which have come under scrutiny in California for their relatively low vaccination rates. Waldorf Schools practice a holistic approach to learning and are based on the philosophy of Austrian thinker Rudolf Steiner, who was critical of many aspects of medicine during his era, the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Hannah Henry said she pulled her three children from a Waldorf school in Napa four years ago because the vaccination rate was below 50%. Her three school-aged children were fully vaccinated at the time, but she had a toddler who was not yet fully immunized. Being on a campus with a low vaccination rate amid the 2015 measles outbreak made her concerned her toddler could contract a preventable disease. Leaving the school her family loved was difficult, she said. “The silence and dismissal of this issue at some schools has really limited the population who can consider an alternative education like Waldorf,” Henry said. “That’s unfortunate for the school and the community. It’s a beautiful methodology and should be safe for all children.”

No, Rudolf Steiner, whose philosophy forms the entire basis of the teaching methodology of Waldorf Schools, was a mystical crank, whose “medicine” is pure quackery, full of antivaccine ideas. Thus, Waldorf Schools represent anything but a “beautiful methodology” and, not surprisingly, are often the nidus of outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases because of low vaccine uptake.

You might ask: Why doesn’t the Medical Board of California go after physicians who write a lot of bogus medical exemption letters? Such physicians are clearly practicing below the standard of care; sanctioning them or even relieving them of their licenses to practice medicine would be an appropriate response to their abuse of their privilege. Indeed, that was, in part, a reason why antivaccine “icon” “Dr. Bob” Sears was sanctioned. Fortunately, that, too, is happening:

Two more doctors are being investigated by the California Medical Board over allegations they signed unnecessary vaccine exemptions for students, according to court records filed by the board. The inquiries into Sacramento-area physicians Kelly Sutton and Michael Fielding Allen raise the number to four doctors who are now the subject of ongoing medical board investigations over their exemption practices. A fifth, Kenneth Stoller, is being investigated by the San Francisco City Attorney’s Office. Together, the five — including Bob Sears of Orange County and Ron Kennedy of Santa Rosa — wrote a third of all exemptions reviewed by this news organization as part of a report on exemptions in eight Bay Area school districts. Last month, the medical board requested a court order to enforce a subpoena filed to Kaiser Permanente, asking the HMO to turn over copies of medical exemptions signed by Sutton and Allen, as first reported by Kaiser Health News.

Dorit Rubinstein has discussed the case of Ron Kennedy before over at our friend Skeptical Raptor’s website. He’s neither a pediatrician nor an family practice doctor. He owns a clinic called the Anti-Aging Medical Clinic in Santa Rosa, CA, which offers, apparently, anti-aging treatments. (Oddly enough, his is one of the most useless practice websites I’ve ever seen, with very little information.)

But what was Kaiser’s involvement? This:

The board opened its investigation in response to a tip from the assistant chief of pediatrics at Kaiser’s Roseville Medical Center, who was concerned by medical exemptions the two doctors had signed for the clinic’s pediatric patients, according to court filings. Kaiser members sought exemptions from Allen and Sutton, neither of whom work for the HMO, and then gave them to their primary care doctors. The medical board initially subpoenaed Kaiser for the records, but the healthcare provider refused to hand over any records that would identify patients. The board is now requesting a court order for the unredacted exemptions.

I discussed Dr. Sutton three years ago. Let’s just say that she, along with Dr. Sears, was a “pioneer” in selling bogus medical exemptions to the new, stricter SB 277 school vaccine mandate. She published webinars for parents instructing them how to avoid the requirements of SB 277 by seeking medical exemptions to school vaccine mandates. Shockingly (that’s sarcasm, obviously), Dr. Sutton practices anthroposophic medicine, one of the quackiest of quack medicines and uses homeopathy:

Dr. Sutton bases her diagnosis in part on conventional medicine: history, physical, laboratory and imaging, and subspecialist consultation when needed. Significant understanding arises from listening to aspects of an individual’s biography, life purpose, the emotional context of illness and health, and understanding the level of vitality and strength of the life forces. She treats acute and chronic illness using the least toxic effective treatment for the condition. Anthroposophic remedies (low potency homeopathic preparations and herbs), diet, nutritional supplements, healthy rhythm, warmth are some of the foundational principles she employs. Anthroposophic therapies play a key role in treatment. Pharmaceutically-prepared mistletoe supports the immune system in a variety of disease processes and specifically lessens side effects of cancer chemotherapy and radiation therapy. Conventional prescriptions are given when needed.

So, yes, she’s definitely a quack; so it’s not surprising that she did this:

In one case, Sutton issued a “lifelong medical exemption from all vaccines” to a boy before his family joined Kaiser Permanente, according to Cerny’s complaint. When one of Cerny’s colleagues refused to write similar exemptions for the boy’s two younger siblings, the mother said she would go back to Sutton to get them, the complaint says. “We feel this doctor and perhaps her colleagues … are making easy money on these exemptions that are not based on true medical need and are actually putting children and other people in the community at risk for contracting and spreading serious infectious diseases,” Cerny wrote in her complaint about Sutton. A physician appointed by the medical board to review exemptions issued by Sutton and Allen described them as “either of questionable validity or patently without medical basis.”

Same as it ever was.

Unfortunately, unless SB 276 passes, what quacks like Dr. Sutton are doing won’t be illegal, and the only recourse that the State of California will have will be for its Medical Board to investigate and sanction physicians who run vaccine exemption mills. It’s good that the Medical Board is actually showing signs of having the will to do this. Most medical boards don’t. However, if the Medical Board of California is anything like most states’ medical boards, it is unlikely to have the resources to pursue any but the most egregious offenders, like Dr. Sutton.

The news isn’t all bad, though. Despite the abuse of medical exemptions by antivaccine parents and physicians, a study hot off the presses in JAMA looking at vaccine uptake between 2000 and 2017 found that the statewide rate of kindergarteners not up-to-date on their required vaccination decreased from 9.84% in 2013 to 4.87% in 2017. The study also found that during the 2014-2015 school year, there were 93 clusters that contained 2,290 schools with high rates of kindergartners without up-to-date vaccination status. During 2016-2017, there were 110 clusters that contained 1613 (95% CI, 1565-1691) schools.

Just imagine, though, how much lower those numbers could be if not for the abuse of medical exemptions by quacks who see a new profit center issuing bogus medical exemptions.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

233 replies on “SB 277 and bogus medical exemptions to vaccine mandates in California”

Doritimi: Thanks for the heads-up. If you have a source URL to post, that would be helpful.

Forging vaccination records is a particularly pernicious form of fraud and child endangerment because it also means that in a serious outbreak, where unvaxed kids are being urged to stay home from school, some number of unvaxed kids will end up staying in school, where they could catch and spread measles or other dangerous diseases.

We should all contact State Senator Pan to alert him to this and suggest he introduce yet another bill. It may be as simple as amending the existing forgery, fraud, and child endangerment statutes, or it may require a new and specific statute. If we can cite specific sources for this bit of news, all the better.

In any case there should be zero opposition to this, even from the fake medical exemption mills, that thrive on an appearance of legitimacy that will be lost if they oppose the new legislation.

Doritmi, I’m replying to your reply to me here because there’s no Reply button under that comment: this re. your having screenshots.

Date/time-stamped screenshots are admissible as evidence in law enforcement investigations and court proceedings. Go into that group and take all the screenshots you can get, date/time-stamped, and save them to a folder.

Do it ASAP before the participants go in there and edit their postings or delete them.

Contact State Senator Pan via the webpage below, call his office on the phone (the number is on the page under “District Office”) and tell them what you’ve got:

https://sd06.senate.ca.gov/contact/email

Ask his secretary how you can get the screen shots to him. His email may automatically reject attachments so they may have to give you another address that accepts attachments. Let his secretary know how big the screenshots are (how many megs) because that may affect how you can send them to him.

IMHO what you have there may be evidence of criminal conspiracy to commit forgery or fraud: ask Senator Pan for his opinion on what to do about that. It may or may not have risen to the point where FBI could get interested, but his office can advise you. If you send it to FBI all they can say is “thanks for reporting that,” because if they proceed with it, the investigation will necessarily be confidential until indictments or arrests are announced.

Speaking from experience here, I’ve helped catch some baddies in my day.

Go out & get ’em, tiger!

Thank you. I am not in those groups, and did not take the screenshots, just saw them, but they are in the hands of Dr. Pan’s office.

Oops, error: the above was intended for Dorit Reiss (damn dyslexia & crappy visual memory for names: two names starting with Dor-, grr grr).

Dorit if you get this please reply to one of my comments. Sorry about the confusion.

Once you get those screenshots into the right hands, the wheels of justice will start turning, and if there are crimes being committed, the people involved will be caught. It could take six months to two years depending on various circumstances, but the relevant authorities are very thorough, to be sure they have something and can win their cases.

So what are the schools going to do if all the families with medically exempt kids lose their exemptions & leave?

So what are the schools going to do if all the families with medically exempt kids lose their exemptions & leave?

Irrelevant. I don’t know why you raised it. It’s only religious and philosophical exemptions that are being removed.

Pretending to give vaccinations, or giving fake ones, or issuing fake vaccination certificates, should be so far over the line that any doctor who does it should immediately lose their license to practice. No second chances for that.

Do we need yet another new bill for this, in addition to the one I’m suggesting in reply to Doritmi’s item about anti-vaxers creating faked (forgery!) vaccine records? Or would it already be covered the the California medical board’s regulations?

It’s in a closed group in Facebook. I do have screenshots.

Existing fraud laws would likely cover that behavior, if caught. Catching it would be the issue.

Then again, quite a few of these people seem to share all kinds of things on Facebook.

What if an anthroposophical physician like Dr. Sutton gives a homeopathic vaccination, using nosodes? Could that allow a physician who doesn’t practice real medicine to say they had vaccinated the child, while not actually doing it?

I don’t think that would be possible, because the specific vaccines required are specified.

Waldorf schools really are lovely and most parents in the ones I’ve been involved in DO vaccinate and most have no idea who Steiner really was–they just love all the art, play, handwork, and gorgeous surroundings with very small classes, lots of celebrations and family involvement. Many parents tend to be a bit New Age-y, and even into a fair amount of woo, and I do realize that since my time with Waldorf, lots more of these parents have probably bought into anti-vax. I’m only defending my own time and involvement with the Waldorf system, not advocating for it. Making an argument against the ideas of the school curriculum itself and the crank status of Steiner just isn’t relevant to people who love the schools simply for what they offer to children, especially in their early school years.

My main problem with the Walforf school I toured over twenty years ago was that its playground was dangerous. The 1970s wood structures were really rotted in the 1990s. Then I got to learn about some of the beliefs and the lack of even attempts at reading in the early grades sealed to deal to “no.”

Hopefully this isn’t a digression at this point:

One of the doctrines of Anthroposophy is that kids shouldn’t be taught to read until much later: somewhere around age 10 or 11 if I recall correctly. Before then, according to the doctrine, they should be taught all kinds of artsy stuff and movement exercises and so on.

I’m all in favor of teaching the arts, and having a good phys ed program, and all of that. And it may even be that some of the methods the Waldorf schools have for teaching those things, could have merit and be adopted more widely.

But failing to teach kids how to read as soon as they’re able, IMHO amounts to a form of child neglect & endangerment. It’s like mucking around with the vaccination schedule, relative to childhood brain development.

Children should never be made pawns or guinea pigs of their parents’ politics or ideologies. The way we treat children speaks volumes about our moral integrity as a society.

I am sure you are right about a lot of parent motivation for choosing these schools, but that also comes with exposure to Steiner’s theories and anti-vaccine nonsense from both staff and other parents. I am certain some of this rubs off, becuase parents choosing such schools are already susceptible to these ideas.

When I lived in Colorado in the 1980s, Shining Mountain Waldorf School was known as a hotbed of anti-vaccine sentiment and pertussis outbreaks.

I couldn’t help but wonder the other day when I was at a pool in Sonoma County if the kids there were on exemptions. Truthfully, they were guests at a hotel so were out-of-towners but there were a dozen boys from a baseball team – all white, thin and healthy looking, so probably unvaccinated ( I’m joking of course).

So Santa Rosa has its own Dr Sears wanna-be who is also an anti-aging expert. Does that mean bio-identical hormones and mega-dose vitamins? Actually, I also wondered more about the availability of cannabis products which seem to be well-advertised- my SO noticed that drivers near SR were so laid back compared to our area where weed has not been yet approved ( but it’s on the way). But seriously, Sonoma is a hotbed for woo of all variants as is Marin and Mendocino- yu can see it just by driving around and looking at adverts.

-btw-
As Orac always says, it’s not just the liberals who reject vaccines but conservatives and libertarians do as well: Shasta is part of the deep red part of California ( see map 2016 election California by county) Some of these areas want to secede from the blue Pacific coast.

Poignant protest sign in the photo of the SB277 protest: “I Deserve An Education”.

You sure do, kiddo. But you’re not getting it at home.

Unfortunately, I don’t think they mean ‘education’ the same way in which we do**:
anti-vaxxers / woo-doers always say:
“Get educated!” “Do your research!”, “Do your homework!”
Although none of it resembles the kind of education/ research/ homework with which I am familiar.

** notice how I adroitly sidestepped the OBVIOUS quote from a well-known movie

Even though I’d like to see some medical licenses lost over this, I suspect even Sears will suffer nothing worse than “double secret probation”. And sadly, these quacks no longer have to go broke over hiring an attorney since they have gulled enough parents that they can raise the legal funds online now.

The image Orac used at the beginning of this post quantitatively shows that ~86% of the vaccine-hesitant advocates are female.

Q. Why are females more likely to be openly vaccine-hesitant compared to males.

That’s a majority of protesters, meaning it tends to be people who can afford the time and don’t have to negotiate with a boss if they want to be somewhere else on a particular Tuesday afternoon. In this case, that includes stay-at-home parents: and there are a variety of societal forces pushing mothers, rather than fathers, into that role. Visible grocery-shopping parents, and people who take children to story time at the library, also skew female–but nobody looks around the children’s room and asks “why are women more likely to care whether their children learn to read?’

Even in a heterosexual couple where both parents work outside the home, it tends to be the mother who is expected to be responsible for taking the kids to the doctor, and thus to make at least some decisions there, whether it’s “yes, 4:00 Tuesday is a good time” or which doctor to go to. “Expected” here by their–and their husbands’–families coworkers, and friends, and by strangers who praise a man for “babysitting” if he takes his children anywhere without their mother.

Denise,

Yes, I almost asked if he needed to sit in some of my classes, but I decided it wouldn’t be nice to have freshmen laughing at him. I can’t imagine having him in any higher level class.

The polls in 2016 were not as bad as commonly believed. There is a lot of variability in individual polls, but
when you look at them in aggregate (which you should) the results are good. The other thing to remember is that the polls estimate the percentage of popular vote.

Examples:

The average of the 13 final national polls had Cinton ahead in the popular vote by 3.1 points: she won the popular vote by 2.1 points.

The 12 polls that had Clinton ahead were closer to the results than the one poll that had Trump
ahead. The one poll showed Trump up by 2 points missed by 4 points: polls that gave HRC the lead
were off from .1 to under 4 points..

In FL, if you averaged the final 3 polls they showed trump ahead by .3 points: he won by 1.2.

In Ohio the final polls showed him ahead by 7 points: he won by 8.1. Stories are similar for Michigan,
North Carolina, and Wisconsin.

“The image Orac used at the beginning of this post quantitatively shows that ~86% of the vaccine-hesitant advocates are female.”

No, it doesn’t, since it is only a snapshot of people from one protest. You couldn’t even say it informs us on the percentages in the area where it was taken. Are you just clueless about statistics or simply prone to jumping to conclusions?

There are 25-females and 4-males in Orac’s vaccine-hesitant image. (25 females/29 total humans X 100 = 86 percent). I look forward to Denice Walters take on gender participation in such vaccine-hesitant gatherings.

https://www.sciencealert.com/anti-vaxxer-facebook-dominated-by-women-and-conspiracy-theories

“Using first names as a rough guide to gender, the study found an average of a 1:3 male to female ratio in terms of users following these pages. In terms of the most active users, men were even more outnumbered.”

@ dean,

Orac’s image provides a 1:5 male to female ratio, therefore, your statistical concern is debatable.

NO MJD, it is not debatable. The number you quote applies to that group of anti-vaccine clowns in the picture (vaccine hesitant? Good lord.). There is no way you can extend it beyond there.

Your lack of understanding is astounding, especially when you double down on it.

Are you just clueless about statistics or simply prone to jumping to conclusions?

He’s trying to patent them both.

dean and Vicki:
You both make excellent points but MJD is immune to instruction.

The photo shows a proportion of m;f that is accurate only for PEOPLE IN THE PHOTO. It tells us nothing about the group at the protest, people in the local area or anti-vaxxers in general.. People may commonly assume that people they know/ in their local group represent some sort of average nationally BUT they’d be wrong. Small samples don’t reflect large numbers- you need large numbers for that.

Actual polls and surveys can estimate beliefs and participation better and they DO show a female edge. However, polls aren’t always so great: in the 2016 election, Trump support was underestimated – some wonks on television ventured that more conservative supporters lied to liberal-sounding, college educated telephone poll takers whom they disliked/ don’t trust. Perhaps some anti-vaxxers, ashamed of their bad science lie as well or mistrust pollsters as agents of an oppressive government or corporatocracy.
In general though, white, middleclass (and above) women seem to be the standard.

This does not make women look good but it’s probably true. It really bothers me that many of the people I survey on anti-vax websites are seemingly well-educated AND college graduates. Interestingly, most of the stalwarts are age 40-70 and many of that group are old enough to remember a time when VPDs were much more frequent. Perhaps 3O-40 year oldS never saw a VPD but 50-70+ year olds? SRSLY. Barbara Loe Fisher, Ann Dachel, John Stone, Mark Blaxill, Zoey O’Toole, AJW, TMR etc?

Maybe because I’m the one who quit working 12 years ago to ‘see what options & resources there were’ for childcare for the once-manageable child who became ‘no longer appropriate for traditional child care settings’ & found out I WAS the only option?

Maybe because this year I will reach my ‘$1 Million in lost wages’ mark?

Maybe because I haven’t paid into social security since I was 38 years old?

Maybe because his 63 year old father has to work 14 hours a day to compensate for my having to caregive, uncompensated, of course, for 12 years & can’t take the time to be ‘open’ about the obvious?

Maybe because it is the knee-jerk reaction of the patriarchal medical community to immediately dismiss the reports from women as ‘imagination’ or a ‘coincidence’, when they are at a loss to explain? And the women in that community are especially vulnerable to the indoctrination because if you can’t beat them; what do you do? You join them.

Maybe because I’m the one covered in bloody scratches, spitting blood out of my mouth, picking shards of glass out of the carpet or hauling my 6’3″ adolescent out of a store when he punched a 6-year-old for whistling & realizing, time & time again that THIS disability resembles NOTHING made by nature ever, ever before … that this disability reeks of a man-made abomination; because it is?

Maybe because in nature, the fiercest sex will typically be the females. They are the hunters & the foragers & if you threaten their offspring they will fight to the death. What do the males do? Sit around, shake their manes & fight other males who want their p****. Posers.

Maybe because despite all of the above, I have the capacity to love the most severely impaired of my children. Enough to get knocked down, repeatedly & quite literally & come up swinging anyway. Not swinging at him; he-who-knocks-me-down but swinging at those who did this to him; those who would do it to others.

Just speculating. I don’t belong to anyone or anywhere but if I had to guess …

” THIS disability resembles NOTHING made by nature ever, ever before…:”

You OBVIOUSLY don’t know history, do you?

Since the 1960s-70S, the so-called Western world has been in the process of de-institutionalisation, i.e. getting people – including children- out of institutions for the intellectually disabled and mentally ill in which they were often treated badly and warehoused. Many of these people, who would now be labelled as severely autistic, were then called “mentally retarded” or “childhood schizophrenics” or “psychotic”. These people now mostly live at home or in group homes. Julian writes about this “diagnostic substitution”.

If you don’t believe me, believe Geraldo Rivera, a NY newsman ( then, anyway) who showed the world the inside of “Willowbrook” one such institution ( see Wikipedia on him and the institution) There are films. E. Fuller Torrey writes about how mental patients were de-institutionalised in the wake of advances in anti-psychotic meds. These places are not anything new- there was a hospital called St Mary of Bethlehem in 19th Century London ( see Bedlam). Novelist Jack London wrote about his experiences working as an orderly in the “Drooling Ward” ( his appellation, not mine) in Glen Ellen, Ca, 100 years or so ago. I’ve actually seen the facility, it has residents still. There is a place in Queens, NY – Creedmore- which is a giant complex of high rise buildings for people with these conditions. It is mostly emptied these days. You can look up these places and even see images.

If psychiatric meds/ vaccines cause SMI or ASD ( as many alt med proselytisers believe) why did places like Glen Ellen or Bedlam- filled with people- exist before the meds/ vaccines did?

“You OBVIOUSLY don’t know history, do you?”

That is only a fraction of what she does not know. The depth of her ignorance approaches infinity.

Maybe because I’m the one covered in bloody scratches, spitting blood out of my mouth, picking shards of glass out of the carpet or hauling my 6’3″ adolescent out of a store when he punched a 6-year-old for whistling & realizing, time & time again that THIS disability resembles NOTHING made by nature ever, ever before … that this disability reeks of a man-made abomination; because it is?

Wait, your son’s father was about 50 and you rule that out?

@ Narad:

Her situation is indeed terrible and I feel sorry for her- it’s a difficult life. I know a man who owns a car repair shop whose son has severe autism who monitored by his wife ( during work hours) who has MS- the man had a stroke ( probably from stress) but recovered. Their lives are not good.

HOWEVER that doesn’t mean that there were not serious life situations like this in the past- ASD, ‘MR’, ID, SMI- are not new. In the past many people were institutionalised because their families could not manage them. The institutions themselves were often horrible places. Governments spent minimal amounts of money because the disabled were considered expendable. I mentioned Bedlam- it had a long history prior to the 19th Century, religious orders took care of this population. Because patients were unmanageable/ violent/ non-communicating restraints and isolation were used frequently. Violent or uncontrollable adults are nothing new. They were not educated or trained. There were no medications. My mother’s friend, a man from Italy, had a daughter in an institution for most of her life- she probably had ID/ ASD- he lived to be 94, she lived a much shorter life.

Society discounted these populations: now they are more visible. People with schizophrenia live with their parents. Autistic people do so as well. Anti-vax writers like Ann Dachel say, “Where were all the people with autism years ago?” They were in institutions for the mentally ill, “training schools”, “schools for the feeble-minded” etc. Dachel is over 70, she should know better: just because people were hidden away didn’t mean that no one was aware of them: They were whispered about and often the subject of melodramatic stories and films.

Zero corporate liability plus medical mandates = Medical Disaster. Forced inoculations with mystery substances. Medical Fascism.

Not forced? SB 276/714 passed and signed, kids can’t go to school unless they are up to date according to CDC.

I’m thankful that we didn’t live in CA when our daughter had an adverse reaction (104+ fever, arched back, screamed in pain for several days). Shortly thereafter she lost her language, stopped interacting with other kids, and was diagnosed with autism a few months later.

She does have Crohn’s disease (scoped multiple times by multiple board certified pediatric gastroenterologists in NY, TX, WI). Family history of rheumatoid arthritis,MS, Parkinson’s, Hashimoto thyroiditis, irritable bowel disease.

Most of those who you label anti-vaxxers are EX-VAXXERS who saw our kids regress and suffer after vaccines. I don’t expect you to agree with me, but the condescending attuon sites like this does not persuade anyone.

Summary of H.R.5546 – National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986
Provides that no vaccine manufacturer shall be liable in a civil action for damages arising from a vaccine-related injury or death: (1) resulting from unavoidable side effects; or (2) solely due to the manufacturer’s failure to provide direct warnings. Provides that a manufacturer may be held liable where: (1) such manufacturer engaged in the fraudulent or intentional withholding of information; or (2) such manufacturer failed to exercise due care. Permits punitive damages in such civil actions under certain circumstances.
Available from congress.gov

Vaccine ingredients are available at Wikipedia, List of vaccine ingredients, with link to CDC document.

Ignores that manufacturers accepted 100% liability upon agreeing to the NVICP, given that they fund it 100% with excise taxes paid (directly by the manufacturer) on every vaccine they make (not given, what they make – which means they pay even more).

States also need to ban use of exemptions from out of state doctors. The California medical board has no jurisdiction over out of state doctors and California already has noticable numbers of dodgy certificates from a Florida doctor! People moving to California who need an exemption for their child should see a California doctor

Chris: Then I got to learn about some of the beliefs and the lack of even attempts at reading in the early grades sealed to deal to “no.”

That reminds me of my kindergarten/first grade experience. I went to a Montessori, not a Waldorf, but I vividly remember being shooed away from the chapter books in kindergarten and that all the kindergartners got in class to read was those stupid Bob books. Then in first grade I was ‘too smart’ according to my classmates and had to continue taking picture books from the school library- when I was reading chapter books at home!

DW: Every time I think about Marin now, I think about how disappointed my cousin would be if she were still alive. And this was a woman who hadn’t had a kind word to say about the government since the Vietnam War! (She was actually in Saigon when hostilities started and was a card carrying Communist.)

@ PGP:

Marin always had an “out there” vibe- so many places sell themselves as originally hippie, having roots with the Dead, Joplin etc ( truly: a state park, Olompali, brags that the Dead used to hang there and that there was a commune, oh and Native culture), small rustic towns and leftist celebrities’ businesses are highlighted. BUT I’ve never had any problems with the woo-folk /anti-vaxxers – or even the nouveau riche- at all. I basically go for the natural phenomena and great food, arts etc. There are spectacular landscapes, unique trees/ plants and birds / animals, parks and sea shores.. It is a place to see and hang out. Go something.

Marin always had an “out there” vibe- so many places sell themselves as originally hippie, having roots with the Dead, Joplin etc

Janis was from Texas. She was actually proposed to be the vocalist, modulo the recently deceased Roky Erickson, of the 13th Floor Elevators.

OBVIOUSLY I mean their late sixties’ presence in SF and Marin: she had a bungalow at Stinson Beach, A few Dead members lived in Marin and I think that two survivors still do and have businesses (a hot sauce company and a restaurant/ brewery) and frequnetly perform in small venues.. also Carlos Santana lives nearby. I thought it funny that material for the state park – known for its ancient grinding stone of the native Miwok people added about the “hippie” commune and the Dead’s presence there.

In other anti-vax news…

according to prn.fm. RFK jr & Co are suing NY state ( with 55 families) today about the elimination of the religious exemption.

I’m sure that that will work out well for them.

DW: I’ve actually been to Marin a couple of times, and I liked what I saw. My cousin had a house on a canal, and it was fun to watch the ‘shift change’ when the tide went in or out. I’ve never been to the park. I should go back sometime when the financial situation improves. Thankfully, I’ve had my shots and I try to stay away from politics on vacation. I wish others would do the same- I’m not looking forward to dealing with the uncle who now follows Alex Jones.

Update on progress toward passage of SB276. There was a hearing of the Appropriations Committee, chaired by the redoubtable Assemblymember Lorena Gonzalez, on July 10. She is a co-author of the bill. By plan, Senator Dr. Pan (he’s a pediatrician) did not make a statement, only the AVers did. The bill, as expected, was put into the Suspense File, to be voted on at the end of the session, in late August.

Appropriations committee: After passing policy committee, bills go the Appropriations Committee which analyze the fiscal impact of the bill. All bills which have a fiscal note of more than $150,000 in the Assembly and $50,000 in the Senate (this is most bills) are referred to something known as the Appropriations Suspense File. Once bills go the suspense file, legislators lobby the chair of the Appropriations Committee to take their bills “off suspense.” This process is secretive with no public visibility. In the suspenseful suspense file hearing, all the chosen bills are pulled off suspense, voted on, and passed. The others are left on the suspense file to die.

Source: https://indivisible.org/resource/indivisible-guide-california-state-legislature

Well, how much will the bill cost?

The AVers are pumping up the numbers. This is from Christina Hillebrand’s group:

“A Voice for Choice Advocacy estimates the cost of SB 276 to be in excess of $50 million in the first year and in excess of approximately $35 million in each subsequent year, with an additional estimated $650 million potential loss in school ADA (average daily attendance) and/or $5 billion potential increased healthcare costs.”

Source: http://vaccineimpact DOT com/2019/california-bill-to-remove-medical-doctor-exemptions-halted-in-assembly-committee-for-now/

The Legislative Analyst, on the other hand (GF is General Fund)

FISCAL EFFECT:
1)  Estimated costs of $2.5 million GF to CDPH in 2019-20, $3.3 million GF in 2020-21 and $3 million GF ongoing annually. The cost estimate is subject to some uncertainty, as it relies on a number of assumptions with respect to the number of exemptions, denials and appeals, as well as the labor costs for each review. This cost estimate includes $400,000 GF one-time for system improvements to the California Immunization Registry and ongoing costs for system maintenance. The remainder of the costs are for staffing and consultant services. 


2)  Costs to the Medical Board of California and the Osteopathic Medical Board of California are expected to be minor and absorbable (special funds). This estimate is also subject to uncertainty, given an unknown number of complaints and investigations. 


So, no new action until August — except for telling your Assemblymember why you think this bill is important.

@ Julian Frost,
(that is such a beautiful name) Why isn’t it relevant? I thought the point of this blog article was that the pro vaccine think that people who would have previously exempted their children per the personal options are now ‘purchasing’ medical exemptions.

(Inane but getting used to that)

I’m pretty sure I know what is really happening & that is that these parents have a child who has had an adverse reaction & were dealing with providers that had been taught that ‘the parents are always wrong’.

(Evil Incarnate. Is that dramatic enough?)

Parents used the personal exemption option because frankly; one reaction in a child is one too many & they share DNA with bio siblings. Providers only care about kids with cancer not tolerating vaccines & that’s all (everyone else gets sacrificed for the herd). When personal exemptions were removed; it forced families to incur financial hardships to find doctors who are charging big bucks for what parents view as a medical necessity.

It matters not what YOU think is a necessity. Is what you think actually increasing parent confidence or just cornering them? Have you spawned 99.9% coverage rates with what YOU think? Yeah, no.

If screening capabilities were acknowledged, parents would have much more confidence in their pediatricians & vaccine coverage rates would go up. Make fun of me all you want but supposedly, ya’ll are concerned about vaccine coverage. Do you want real-world info with which to have real-world tools, or not?

@ Dorit R and you:

My statement ‘what about the schools?’ was not as naive as it sounded. You are missing something huge. I will say; ‘I hate to tell you this’ because I do. I’ve wrestled with it for days & finally decided that I can’t win. I’ve done nothing wrong & was quite taken aback but not all can say that.

Ultimately, anyone’s ‘wrong’ will negatively impact my children, no matter how good their intentions. I won’t be spoonfeeding any more of this to anyone.

I am asking you; ‘what about the schools?’

(that is such a beautiful name)

Thanks. My mother spent some of her childhood in Folkestone, Kent, in Julian Road. She liked the name and that’s why I have it.

I thought the point of this blog article was that the pro vaccine think that people who would have previously exempted their children per the personal options are now ‘purchasing’ medical exemptions.

Fair enough. If an exemptee (I don’t know if that’s the correct word) turns out to have a false medical exemption, then he or she would first be given time to catch up on the required vaccinations, and then kicked out. There are not likely to be very many of them, so I imagine it wouldn’t really be an issue.

(Inane but getting used to that)

Did you even read the post above? Orac linked to good evidence that this is happening. Here’s a post by him about it. And here’s a post about Dr. Bob Sears who was bust for doing precisely that.
The simple fact of the matter is, after SB277 revoked getting non medical exemptions, antivaxx parents turned to unscrupulous medical practitioners to get false medical exemptions.

You’re welcome. I understand what the doctors are doing but they wouldn’t be able to if parents were not desperate. This situation is creating desperate parents. Parents, however; are not who you have to worry about when it comes to fraud.

We don’t have access or even ‘hackcess’ to the EHRs. Schools might get desperate too.

@ Julian,

Do you know many? (BTW I am trying to sign in through WordPress first time ever so my stupid avatar will show; this is Christine)

I think they are angry & defensive. Am I arrogant or entitled? That’s not rhetorical because I think everyone here thinks I am Antivaccine.

Christine K: what about the schools?’

Why do you assume that teachers and staff members would be on your side? The school building doesn’t have an opinion, by the way.

I’d also like to point out that teachers and staff members are not directly responsible for anything that happens outside of school hours. They may have opinions on whether kids should be vaccinated, but they cannot enforce those opinions. School nurses usually aren’t allowed to give injections, and while a teacher may have authority in the classroom, they can’t pressure the parents of their students or make medical decisions for the kids in their care. (Except in super rare cases like..say, if a student was suffering an allergy attack or needed CPR. Boarding schools might have slightly more rules, given the increased chance of a student meeting an accident on school property. I do know that a college can bar a student from being in the dorms for a time.

@ PGP,

I assumed exactly the opposite about the schools but I was wrong. I also thought they wanted those 99% vaccinated classrooms. I keep saying that something is wrong with the epidemiology that is denying risk from vaccines. This is quite obvious to me but I am far from being the only one. Do you think medical health science is the ONLY branch of research who uses epidemiology? Far from it.

The DOE does research too. Recently, other researchers have started writing to journals cautioning them about the ‘safe’ designation of vaccines. They are non-medical with no skin in the game but they know numbers & they know something is off.

I suppose it’s wearing thin on them (school administrators); they keep complying & the provaccine keep moving the goalposts & whether or not you know this; they are losing students & funding due to the ever restrictive legislation.

In my kids school district, vaccines can be given by techs in a mobile nurses station, with parental consent. Now how exactly do you think those vaccines are recorded on a child’s EHR? As a parent, I can look up my child’s immunization records but I sure as hell can’t edit them.

I personally, would not edit them if I could, because I have three VAERS case #s & one of those cases is for a child still in school. I was very careful to report accurate information & falsified records will invalidate my VAERS cases. (these are not claims; way too late for that. these are for science; to be counted)

The schools can both access & edit the EHR. The school record is a legal document which becomes a transcript upon graduation & the Immunization record, is part of the transcript.

@Christine:

I keep saying that something is wrong with the epidemiology that is denying risk from vaccines. This is quite obvious to me but I am far from being the only one.

Unless you or those other people are able to articulate reasons why there is something wrong, I can’t take your claims seriously.

Recently, other researchers have started writing to journals cautioning them about the ‘safe’ designation of vaccines. They are non-medical with no skin in the game but they know numbers & they know something is off.

Who are these researchers and what are their qualifications? If they are non-medical, what qualifications do they have in, for instance, data science, which would show an ability to detect problems?

…the provaccine keep moving the goalposts…

How are the provaccine “moving the goalposts”? SB277 was just one thing.

For example, one student I know of had to leave the dorms for a while because she got whooping cough.

“I keep saying that something is wrong with the epidemiology that is denying risk from vaccines. This is quite obvious to me but I am far from being the only one.”

There’s lots wrong with your strawman, as pro-immunization advocates do not deny vaccination carries risks – just not the bogus risks claimed by antivaxers.

It is “obvious” to many people that the moon landing was fakes and that Bill Gates wants to depopulate the world. Their beliefs cannot be taken seriously either.

@ Dangerous Bacon,

If you don’t believe we landed on the moon, you have no business telling me what should or should not be taken seriously.

Do you mean Bill Gates of HCG-vaccine repute or his father; William Gates Sr. of Kissinger era Planed Parenthood repute? Oh, never mind. Neither of them are exactly the best examples of ‘how-not-to’ Eugenics. Yuck.

Christine: The schools can both access & edit the EHR. The school record is a legal document which becomes a transcript upon graduation & the Immunization record, is part of the transcript.

No, that’s wrong. Staff members cannot access the medical records of their students willy-nilly, much less ‘edit’ them. (And why would they? I suspect you’re confusing ‘editing’ with ‘updating’ too, which doesn’t help.) And you’re playing right into the ‘arrogant’ stereotype, by assuming that teachers and school administrators are on your side. You’re probably on the PTA, and the teachers probably dread having your kids in their class because then they have to deal with you constantly criticizing them.

Medical personnel can pass specific bits of information on to teachers or confirm that so and so has been diagnosed with x condition, but the full medical records are protected by HIPAA. Either you don’t live in the US, or you’re being really paranoid.

Christine, again: In my kids school district, vaccines can be given by techs in a mobile nurses station, with parental consent.

And you have a problem with this? Again, it’s with parental consent, the teachers don’t have a thing to do with that. It’s not like they’re dragging the kids into the vans. Of course the techs have to update medical records- duplication is unnecessary, and when or if the student sees a doctor, it’s useful for the doctor to know if the kid’s up to date or not.

Finally, like MJD and other anti-vaxxers, you think you’re making points that are somehow ‘unique.’

They’re not. We’ve heard this whine before, and it’s not a good vintage. Bonus points for the ‘buuut I’m noooot anti-vax’ whine, right after calling autistic people ‘abominations.’ If people on this board think you’re anti-vax, maybe it’s because you’re giving them good reason to think that.

@ PGP,

I’m sure you are a great person & you are very smart & articulate. (1, 2, 3-10, .. breathe.)

But read what I said again. I didn’t call autistic people ‘abominations’, I AM an autistic person & I called autism an abomination. I don’t make the mistake of cultural appropriation to tell black people how to use the ‘N’ word; you don’t get to tell me what I can say about autism. Or in this case; what I didn’t call people with autism. Mkay?

I went to one PTA meeting. My son turned into El Torro & took down an entire panel of full library shelves. I never went back.

Thank God I was wrong about the ‘superior ability’ of neurotypical people to read between the lines of my astoundingly vague warning about the potential (?) for fraudulent immunization records. I still feel bad because I didn’t really ‘say’ anything . You can bet your life it was unique. Count yourself blessed that I don’t belong to anybody or anywhere & that instead; I post HERE.

Count yourself blessed that I don’t belong to anybody or anywhere & that instead; I post HERE.

∗blink∗

“Do you mean Bill Gates of HCG-vaccine repute”

Oo, this is even better than moon landing denial.

This morning I stopped into the hospital docs’ lounge for an emergency coffee infusion. A physician I didn’t know was talking about Andrew Wakefield, whom he evidently did not regard as “Jesus Christ and Nelson Mandela rolled up into one”, instead declaring him to be responsible for deaths from vaccine-preventable diseases.

Preach it, brother.

Props to that doc, doc! Also not that her response to you shows her lack of reading comprehension.

@ Chris,

You are making fun of me because sometimes I don’t get sarcasm in print (I happen to think I do just fine in person).

No wonder your autistic son doesn’t want to participate in your Great Idea.

You did not read his comment right. And now you are just trolling:

Trollin’ Trollin’ Trollin’
Trollin’ Trollin’ Trollin’
Trollin’ Trollin’ Trollin’
Trollin’ Trollin’ Trollin’
Rawhide!
Trollin’ Trollin’ Trollin’
Though the threads are swollen
Keep them comments trollin’,
Rawhide!

Cherry pick!
(Head em’ up!)
Move goalposts!
(Move ’em on!)
More insults!
(Head em’ up!)
Rawhide!
Make stuff up!
(Paste ’em in!)
Change topics!
(Cut em’ out!)
Whine some more!
Paste ’em in,
Rawhide!
Keep trollin’, trollin’, trollin’
Though they’re disaprovin’
Keep them comments trollin”,
Rawhide!
Don’t try to understand ’em
Just rope, laugh, and ignore ’em
Soon we’ll be discussin’ right without ’em

@ Dangerous Bacon,

You are not aware of HCG vaccines & who (partially) funded them? Concerning.

You applaud physicians who seem unaware that the ‘D’ in the VPDs are actually responsible for the deaths & the ‘V’, at least according to this thread; is inefficient unless everybody gets the ‘V’. Or why would we need the legislation? Otherwise … just get the damn vaccine for yourself & be on your way. Additionally concerning.

I don’t give a rat’s ass about your token scapegoat Wakefield. I first heard about him HERE.

Are you a Surgeon?

HCG vaccine is a form of birth control. May or may not be better than pills. How this is concerning ?
Of course, vaccines give immunity to most vaccinated person and work individually. A concern is epidemics amongst unvaccinated populations

@ Narad,

Blink? You stole my favorite reaction. Maybe flip your hair over your shoulder too …

Christine Kincaid: I didn’t call autistic people ‘abominations’, I AM an autistic person & I called autism an abomination.

Ok, have fun squaring that circle. Have to say, the only other autistic person I’ve run into that’s quite that condescending and self-hating is Jake Crosby. And that’s not really a person that anyone should want to be emulating. I’m giving you a warning, since you might be out of practice in talking to other adults. But being condescending tends not to end well around here.

Do you know how hyperlinks work? Because I suspect that’s what you were going for, and your comments are a bit confusing without the link.

I’m still not sure why you’re all worked up about the possibility of fraudulent vaccine records, since you seem to be in favor of lying. A little clarity would be nice, as well as you maybe looking up HIPAA, since you really don’t seem to be getting how it works. (And yes, last I checked HIPAA applies to minors.)

@ PGP,

I remember, I think, a Jake Crosby who posted here. He used a lot of exclamation points.

You are right, I am not used to talking to adults. I would love to know how hyperlinks work; I think they are cool.

I have not lied here. At all. I WAS concerned about falsified immunization records until I saw Chris’s macabre song & dance routine upthread. I now do not believe that most here are mature enough to handle this. Just quit … telling me how it works. I know how it’s supposed to work … but I also know what is actually happening. I guess I will just roll with it & keep my mouth shut. Continue taking screenshots of ‘Antivaccine parents posts’ & flood some senators mailbox with them, for all I care. How weird.

@ Julian,

The Goalposts involved: adding vaccines to the schedule, increasing the recommended frequency, requiring waivers for personal/ religious exemptions, requiring online stats from schools, restricting personal exemptions, removing personal exemptions & now restricting medical exemptions.

People ARE beginning to wonder.

@Christine K, every single one of those actions was done on the basis of new evidence.

adding vaccines to the schedule

HIB and HPV are killers.

increasing the recommended frequency

Immunity can wane, hence the use of booster doses. Also, some people don’t gain immunity from exposure.

requiring waivers for personal/ religious exemptions

Waivers have been required for a very long time. In addition, no mainstream religion refuses vaccination. Most in fact support it.

requiring online stats from schools

Are you familiar with the concept of herd immunity? When the proportion of people vaccinated against a disease falls below a threshold, the disease can jump from unvaccinated people to those too young to be vaccinated and those who are immunosuppressed. Dana McCaffery was killed by pertussis. Her family lived in an area with low vaccination rates.
In addition, it has been found that antivaxxers cluster. Some areas have very high refusal rates. That is why these statistics are required.
<blockquote.restricting [and] removing personal exemptions & now restricting medical exemptions.
As I pointed out above, once herd immunity drops below certain levels, outbreaks occur. It is now realised that religious and personal belief exemptions are illogical. As to the medical exemptions, like I pointed out before, there have been instances where physicians have written invalid medical exemptions.
All of these actions have science behind them.

Christine: It’s actually pretty simple: I usually use a straight copy and paste, or type in the link and do this

https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2019/07/12/anti-vaxxer-sues-ny-to-give-religious-groups-the-right-to-spread-measles-again/#comment-4540914999

(Not exactly relevant, but very interesting.) Anyway, not elegant, but basic, and shouldn’t you know this?

How in the world is Chris’s comment ‘macabre?’

Christine: Just quit … telling me how it works. I know how it’s supposed to work.

No, you really don’t. To begin with, you don’t understand that teachers are NOT health care professionals. That doctors and the educational system rarely interact. To be fair, it might just be that your writing’s so bad that I’ve misunderstood badly, but it still reads like dispatches from Pluto. Clarity’d be nice.

You’ve dreamed up these weird conspiracy theories and you think the whole world’s against you. And why in the world do you think people trying to commit fraud isn’t a problem?

@ PGP,

‘Dispatches from Pluto’ … LOL. Well, at least you are intuitive; that’s how I feel half the time.

I am not dreaming up weird conspiracy theories. Nobody here has backed me up so we can go with what you said, okay? I don’t mind.

“I am not dreaming up weird conspiracy theories.”

Never said so. You’re recycling other people’s weird conspiracy theories.

We’re nauseatingly familiar with the Bill Gates Vaccine Depopulation Genocide Conspiracy.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bill-gates-vaccinations-depopulation/
https://africacheck.org/fbcheck/25-years-on-rumour-by-us-anti-contraceptive-organisation-still-damages-tetanus-vaccine-programmes/

There’s a need for bizarre new antivax conspiracy theories; the old ones have gotten stale.

I said NOTHING about Genocide but nice try. You mentioned depopulation. Birth Control reduces the fertility level in populations & although it would take quite a while to result in depopulation; USAID promoted ‘family planning’ ala BC (among other methods) for the purpose of population control.

This is not called a ‘conspiracy’. This is history. Recent history, at that. Bill Gates has indeed funded HCG vaccine research; the vaccine is in the trial stage in India.

Don’t give me snopes, please? They cite themselves. Frequently. Pubmed’s server has been down since last night but here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28410154

Maybe you will have better luck than I. Not Genocide. But Gates meddling in population issues? Old news.

For sure, oh Dangerous One!

Christine has been given loads of references by us – who are either trained in medicine, psychology or education or have people with ASDs in their family like Chris/ or
who have an ASD themselves. In addition, she is on a site wherein our exemplary host, Orac, discusses and demolishes every anti-vax conspiracy theory in existence ( as well as other forms of alt med, woo and assorted pseudoscientific fol de rol). There is a search box for Orac’s topics above.

When I hear anti-vaxxers ( or those influenced by them like Christine) quibble about research I want to scream: they toss out terms like “cytokine storm” without the least support from data ( Orac’s minions know how to deal with this, thanks, Julian and others). I hear this constantly from PRN.fm or AoA. One of the latter’s writers, Conrick, even has a “red hair” theory ( because her autistic daughter has red hair). We’ve heard this already. Anti-vaxxers fear the effects of vaccines when the actual diseases they prevent have much worse effects on a person.A vaccine may give you a slight fever but measles? A high fever for protracted periods of time,

I spent time writing about the history of care for the mentally ill and developmentally disabled ( in a few comments) and Christine reacts to a seemingly poetic reference by ancient French nuns! Read about de-institutionalisation, please! I also supplied insight into why signs of ASDs appear PRIOR to the time MMR is given: how could a vaccine given at age 1 1/2 cause symptoms that appear before birth, at birth or at an early age? Some of these kids have un-mistakable physiogmic signs, like specific facial proportions or differing head sizes-
how could vaccines do that? How can the tiny amounts of ingredients in a vaccine- no matter what they are- be enough to utterly transform the organisation of the brain or the number of connections within ( thanks, Alain)?
There’s a reason that anti-vaxxers like Katie Wright ( twitter) despise studies of infants’ patterns of gaze: because they show- repeatedly- that ASDs occur very early in life. Then, there are genetics!

@ Denice,

I’ve said thank you to a lot of people here. It’s called manners. I have no clue about the ramblings about other people; I’ve not been influenced. I hate to say this but I can’t stand AoA. I know they are moms like me but they are a repetitive & boring echo chamber.

RI is also an echo chamber but much more informative & not boring.

I believe infants are born with the BAP phenotype. Pretty sure ‘gaze studies’ would confirm this. That’s boring too. BAP does not = ASD. Pretty sure BAP + vaccination = ASD. Not boring. That kinda looks like an equation for a multifactorial condition.

No anesthesiologists have stepped forward about the peculiarities of anesthetizing red heads so I’ll not expand but phenotypes do matter.

@ Denice again,

I loved your post about the history of institutionalization. I do react to profound information, especially as well written as yours was. I’m afraid to say thank you now but thank you anyway.

Oh damn I forgot but you know what? Ya’ll here are so SB this & SB that … Responsible science would never had let there be a ‘debate’ about ANY matter of science for this long. This is exactly what Big Tobacco did; call any who did dissent ‘conspiracy theorists’.

You bastions of science here should not be resorting to name calling, bullying, or making up little sing-song chants to recite as you dance around my burning stake. Christ, man.

Go back to the drawing board. Figure out why your science cannot be reconciled with the human experience. So far the only reason you’ve got to not do this is ‘Mothers are wrong’ & ‘Christine is a conspiracy theorist. Even worse; she’s a mother! Eeww!’

That’s an epic scientific process right there. Epic. Centuries from now this will be known as the Dark Ages of Science. Oops; there I go all dramatic again. Sorry Orac; I know. I’m supposed to be a chew-toy here, right? This time you got a squeaky-toy instead.

Why can’t science be “reconciled with the human experience” of ghosts?
Or nighttime visitations by grey aliens?
Or Nessie?
Many people believe in these things despite scientific evidence that they don’t exist.

@Christine:

Responsible science would never had let there be a ‘debate’ about ANY matter of science for this long. This is exactly what Big Tobacco did; call any who did dissent ‘conspiracy theorists’.

Firstly, that was not what Big Tobacco did. Big Tobacco funded cherry picked research, spread “Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt”, lied about research it did that confirmed what the doomsayers were saying, and then tried to turn the issue into one of “personal choice”, just like antivaxxers today are. You have got things arse about face so blatantly that it now calls everything you say into question.
In both the issue of tobacco caused illnesses and the supposed harms of vaccination, “Responsible Science” told the truth. Big Tobacco and antivaxxers responded with lies, FUD, and shouting “Personal Choice!” They made the issue a pseudodebate. I don’t see what Responsible Science and Scientists could have done to prevent the lies and distortions of the other side.

There is a connection between big tobacco and big antivax – both Bernadine Healy (J. B. Handley’s favorite “scientist”) used to work for Big tobacco, and Jenny McCarthy did (and maybe still does) tobacco ads.

Is every antivaxxer a big tobacco shill? Just asking.

Christine:
you’re not understanding what we’re saying:
— ASDs have been in existence prior to vaccination but they were called something else.
— people became more aware of these conditions when de-institutionalisation happened and they were re-named
— diverse studies have shown that ASDs can be predicted at ages much earlier than what vaccines could cause
— studies of autistic brains reveal major differences from NT brains/ autistic facial features, head size as well.

I’m done, I have work to do.
Julian, Alain, Chris et al can take over, if they choose.

Julian, Alain, Chris et al can take over, if they choose.

Thanks but I prefer a root canal sans anesthetics, a thorough kick in the b­µtt and shooting myself in the foot compared to dealing with Christine…

Alain

Sorry, the trolling song indicates I am done. There is a point where there is no way to have a discussion with a closed mind.

@ Denice,

“How can the tiny amounts of ingredients in a vaccine- no matter what they are- be enough to utterly transform the organisation of the brain or the number of connections within .”

Those tiny amounts managed to utterly transform the organization of disease progression & it’s impact on human evolution worldwide (& yes; some for the GOOD); did they not? They don’t have to ‘change the brain’; they only have to impact one cell & vaccines impact immune cells throughout the body. “Changing the brain’ is actually a bit underwhelming.

Reconciling ghosts & UFOs? Do we propose legislation to stop Paranormal experiences? Propagandize pro-ghost society? Give me a break.

Reconciling ghosts & UFOs? Do we propose legislation to stop Paranormal experiences? Propagandize pro-ghost society? Give me a break.

Again, you completely miss Denice’s point. There are people who believe that they have come across ghosts and people who believe they have been abducted by aliens. As Denice says:

Many people believe in these things despite scientific evidence that they don’t exist.

Our point is this: why should we take these parents’ claims as gospel, when the evidence overwhelmingly points to them being mistaken and fooling themselves, the same way that believers in ghosts, the paranormal and aliens are?

Thanks, Julian.

People who want to find reasons to link vaccines to autism will manage to avoid research that show that:
— there is no link
— there is a specific manner in which the brain develops that shows how and when ASDs occur
— we know what changes or affects development of the brain
— we know precisely how brains of people with ASDs differ from those of NT people

The many theories of “vaccine damage” ( Wakefield’s, the Hg hypothesis, the Al hypothesis etc)
don’t fit the data .

Years ago, people believed that schizophrenia was caused by evil spirits or poor parenting/ abuse or poor nutrition
NOW we know better that genes are a huge influence and other causal factors like difficult childbirth, maternal infection/ drug use and other preperinatal problems can affect outcomes. Changes don’t happen at age 2.
The brain is organised very early during gestation – the first 3 months are decisive.

The reasons that anti-vax theorists can postulate such ideas is because they don’t understand development.

For the sake of completeness:
see schizophrenia .com / causes of schizophrenia ( in depth)

Christine Kincaid: Birth Control reduces the fertility level in populations & although it would take quite a while to result in depopulation; USAID promoted ‘family planning’ ala BC (among other methods) for the purpose of population control.

Oh, another right-winger. or at least, someone who just lurves the rightwing’s pet conspiracies. And we’ll add birth control to the list of things you don’t understand.

Christine Kincaid: Responsible science would never had let there be a ‘debate’ about ANY matter of science for this long.

There’s no debate, really, just a bunch of overgrown toddlers digging in their heels, including one that resides in the White House. Some people just can’t be educated. I mean we’re 50 years into the space age, and some people still think the Earth is flat- which, despite what people think, was considered a silly idea even in the middle ages.

Why are we talking about birth control and family planning? Christine, do you have something against family planning?

Justatech: She thinks family planning is a bad word, I guess, or a coverup for some nefarious scheme.

Christine: You guys sure mention a flat earth a lot. Was this a unanimous & simultaneous discovery or are you somewhat echolalic?

Neither, it’s just a very well-known conspiracy theory that persists despite all the widely available evidence.

@ PGP,

Well can you change it up a bit? Sasquatches are kinda cool … And the lost Smithsonian giant skeletons article where Snopes literally cites only the Smithsonian is fun too. DIA? Dulce, NM? How about the Illuminati? Surely the fear of diversity here can spawn some better allegations other than the flat earth thing.

Family planning? You asked for it:

Yaz sucked. The mini-pill reversed my cycle. Junel makes me lose weight, go figure. The banana flavored condoms are awful; grape is the best & when you are not an HIV denier during the 1990s; it pays to know these things. I was too fertile for the IUD; the doctor refused.

Do you have any idea how ‘boingy’ those diaphragms are? I went behind the curtain to ‘practice’ at my OBGYNs & the damn thing sprung out of my fingers, ricocheted across the room & rolled across the floor, finally coming to rest right at Dr. Schmidt’s feet. He didn’t even flinch.

The exam after I developed an allergic reaction to nonoxynol-9 made him cringe & slowly say; ‘Do not … ever … use anything with that ingredient … again.’

My tubal made me sick; had it reversed & got better & my youngest is a post-vasectomy baby. Family Planning isn’t necessarily a ‘bad word’ to me but ‘Unplanned Chaos’ seems more appropriate. But I’m here to discuss vaccines, remember?

Do you have any idea how ‘boingy’ those diaphragms are?

Why the fuck am I seeing comments about diaphragm incompetence in an SB277 thread?

@ Just a Tech,

Because posters here are trying to bait me into ‘disclosing’ some pet conspiracy theory so I can be a conspiracy theorist & invalidate my very valid position on vaccines. Dangerous Bacon asked if I thought Bill Gates was trying to depopulate the world & I asked him to clarify. Gates Jr. funded birth control vaccine in trial stages in India & Sr. was head of Planned Parenthood.

Which one was he referring to? It’s a reasonable question when two people have the same name.

DB was very pleased that I knew this & accused me of accusing whichever one or maybe both of committing genocide. So I’m defending myself.

I suppose this is how it works when you don’t care about Wakefield & think the flat earth diversion is stupid.

@Christine KIncaid tiny amounts of antigens cause immunity, because human immune system reacts to them. There are no similar system (many organs, though some of its cells are separate in the blood) to react other vaccine components.

So they are powerful. And so is the human immune system. ‘Tiny’ antigens don’t have to ‘change the brain’ all by themselves; if synaptic pruning is disabled; neuroanatomical changes are inevitable.

Ok so by that logic, adjuvants disable synapse pruning? And synapse pruning render a brain normal?

I don’t want to know how it’s done. I can guess the logic behind the person who said so but I really don’t want to go there…

Al

”Why are we talking about birth control and family planning? Christine, do you have something against family planning?”

It’s tantamount to genocide. Didn’t you get the memo?

”if synaptic pruning is disabled; neuroanatomical changes are inevitable.”

And if your mom had wheels, she’d be a Segway.

”Yaz sucked.”

Nonsense. Yaz was an 18-time All-Star, won a Triple Crown and is in the Hall of Fame.*

*wonder how he felt about having his nickname associated with a contraceptive device.

@ DB,

I don’t understand the Segway comment?

Would you please be a gentleman & inform your peers that you did indeed first post ‘Gates’
At 0807 on July 15?

Thank you.

Christine Kincaid: If you’ll recall, Ms. Memory-of-a-goldfish, you were the one who brought up contraception FIRST by dragging the Gates family into it and then adding examples from your life. Holy oversharing Batman! So, fine, contraception didn’t work for you. That doesn’t mean the people who provide it or support it are supervillians. And yes, since the usual objections to family planning are religious-based, I assumed that was your problem with it.

Protip: don’t share your medical history on the internet. It’s both gross and might be traced back to you, especially if you post under your real name.

Christine Kincaid: Sasquatches are kinda cool … And the lost Smithsonian giant skeletons article where Snopes literally cites only the Smithsonian is fun too. DIA? Dulce, NM? How about the Illuminati? Surely the fear of diversity here can spawn some better allegations other than the flat earth thing.

Those are all very fringe theories and only a handful of people take the Sasquatch thing seriously. The Illuminati are also something that not a lot of people take seriously, and most of the people who do are using it as an excuse to be anti-semites or yell about things in music or TV that they don’t like. I’ve never heard of the others.

The Flat Earthers actually have conventions. (And even a Netflix documentary that’s fairly watchable and doesn’t drift into bothsidesism, though it does make the laypeople seem pretty sympathetic.)

I don’t know where you’re getting this ‘fear of diversity’ thing from? Coming from a suburbanite like you, that’s actually pretty funny.

@ PGP:

Christine says she doesn’t read anti-vax sites but her examples sound a great deal like stuff that I survey courtesy of Mikey ( Gates), Null/ AoA ( auto-immunity, the red hair theory etc) as well as the conspiracies.

@ PGP,

I found Dori from Nemo to be somewhat profound. Please refrain from using the ‘Ms.’ prefix for me though; reminds me of barren, bitter divorcees.

Holy oversharing? That wasn’t even the half of it. I was brief but trying to establish myself as a worthy consumer of family planning.

Why should I be afraid of someone finding me?

You should be worried about someone finding the medical information you have provided here because an employer might use it to choose not to employ you, or an unscrupulous medical insurer or provided of life insurance might choose to deny you coverage.

The same concern applies to everyone, but more so to people who use their full names.

It is their choice.
Also, most people aren’t posting under their whole full name.

PGP and I are simply informing you of the risks since you didn’t seem to be aware. What you do with that information and advice is up to you.

I’m retired and we have government insured health care here where I live…

Finally, there are probably 2 or 3 persons who want me dead (YES, true) but I fought them off successfully.

Alain

Christine: Holy oversharing? That wasn’t even the half of it. I was brief but trying to establish myself as a worthy consumer of family planning.

Then why did you bring it up in the first place with the handwaving over the HCG/Gates thing? You acted like you were opposed but now you say you’re not. Pick a side and stop weaseling. All you had to do was say that you weren’t opposed to family planning and not make it sound like a conspiracy, no one asked for a medical history.

Christine:Please refrain from using the ‘Ms.’ prefix for me though; reminds me of barren, bitter divorcees.

That’s stereotyping like whoa. I use Ms. just because ‘Miss’ sounds old-fashioned and I’ve never been married.

Christine: Thank you but what about those here who say they are ASD?

Alain and Julian don’t live in the US, so Alain’s covered by his national health insurance and it can’t be revoked. I think South Africa has some sort of national health insurance, maybe? I’m not really sure, since their previous president bought into some really weird ideas. As for the commenters who are in the US, it’s their decision to reveal that or not, knowing that the Internet does not forget.

I’ve got to laugh at the “Ms” thing, since that’s what the New York Times uses for all women whom they are not referring to by their title (Dr, Senator, Judge, Admiral), even married women.

And I’m not touching the “barren” part with a 50 foot pole.

@ JustATech.

I just don’t like Ms. I have no problem calling other people Ms., in fact; it’s the default setting. Ms. Goldfish would rather be Miss Goldfish. If that’s a problem, I should have a problem with being a Goldfish but I’m not as confrontational as she is.

When I was little the only people who demanded to be called Ms. were divorcees, who were bitter & ‘childfree’. Is that better?

“When I was little the only people who demanded to be called Ms. were divorcees, who were bitter & ‘childfree’. Is that better?”

No, it just means you haven’t grown up enough to stop making believing in negative, sexist stereotypes.

Gosh, I wish I could edit….

No, Ms. Kincaid, it just means you haven’t grown up enough to stop believing in negative, sexist stereotypes.

Yes! You should not have to announce your marital status when meeting someone, especially at work.

I did not change my last name when I got married almost forty years ago. I had many reasons from the fact that I did not want to be known as an extension of dear hubby and that it is really a hassle to change your name on so many things (went through that process with youngest kid who did not like their given name and then by just a tiny bit of editing created a much cooler name than we did!).

Then there was the core reason: why should I change my name to something that my stepmother could not spell for ten years, plus she never learned how to pronounce it? I have enough trouble with people who cannot spell my very common single syllable English name that can be spelled at least five different ways (Chris + surname has only 22 million results on the googles). We have been highly amused how dear hubby’s surname of the many vowels has been warped over the years. New daughter-in-law has taken notice of that fact.

@ Chris,

When I was married the first time I kept my maiden name. The second time I changed it. Grudgingly & I now regret it. Ms.just sounds unfeminine to me.

@ Chris:

Oh, one of those names like van Leeuwenhoek? A/k/a the microscope guy.
There are quite a few of them around here including place names, like streets and historical sites.

Yes.

Now do any of those streets have a store that sells hagelslag or fresh hot poffertjes? Because we could not find any in the Hudson Valley, though the train through there from Albany to Penn Station was gorgeous.

@ Chris:

Although there are descendants of the Dutch there isn’t much of the culture left AFAIK- although there may be an odd artifact or two and churches ( Dutch Reformed).There’s more German/ Yiddish food stores, e.g. The Pork Store and various non-pork stores.
And of course, Eastern European, Italian, Hispanic, Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Egyptian, Syrian, Armenian etc.

I know. That was enforced by the tour guide on the Albany tour boat who did not know how to pronounce “patroon.” 😉

Of course that is because the Dutch settled there over three hundred years ago. Hubby still has relatives in the Netherlands. Fortunately there was lots of Dutch settlement here in the last century, especially after WW II (like his father), so we can get hagelslag and if we drive north a couple hours there is a shop where they make poffertjes out front (plus sometimes we see some being made and sold at a street fair, much like the Saturday market in Troy).

Meg: No, Ms. Kincaid, it just means you haven’t grown up enough to stop believing in negative, sexist stereotypes.

She apparently believes everything, and then wonders why we think she’s a conspiracy theorist.

It’s getting to the point where I wonder if she was allowed to go outside in her lifetime. I’d like to be generous, but my patience is running out. Some people have gluten intolerance, I have fool intolerance.

@ PGP,

“She apparently believes everything”

I believe vaccines are causing serious adverse events that have not ‘signaled’ yet.

Please name one more thing I believe in that is not a matter of perspective (femininity, names, etc …). Quote me & cite your claim.

I didn’t apparently share enough; LOL at ‘I wonder if she was allowed to go outside …’ You could be my senior by 30 years & you’d still be a comparative life-experience toddler. Not even a sniff at the most revealing part of my ‘share’; just the predictable one.

I believe vaccines are causing serious adverse events that have not ‘signaled’ yet.

Thank you for concisely stating your argument. Now:

What are these serious adverse events caused by vaccination that haven’t signalled yet?
How do you propose we detect these events? How do we find their signal?
What is your hypothesised method of causation for these vaccine induced adverse events?

On this website, if you make a claim, you are exected to give evidence in support of that claim. If you can’t or won’t, you forfeit the right to be taken seriously.

Re; me revealing I am on the spectrum: South Africa is trying to introduce National Health Insurance, but it doesn’t, and I have a Medical Aid. Fortunate, because I’m currently dealing with a spider bite on my left hand. Most annoying.

@ Julian:
Actually, as both you and I know,extremely rare events following vaccines can be detected. AND this has been done in the past. Maybe we should ask an epidemiologist about that because we do have one here.**
Anti-vaxxers believe that autism is caused by vaccination. Now if all or most of that is because of vaccines, it would have been detected ( 1 in 100 or 1 in 50-) but wasn’t. Those numbers aren’t a rare event.

If that were true, it would mean that for many years ( at least since the 1990s) governmental and industry scientists have been covering this up. Think of how much effort and money that would take- bribes, payments, fixing data and literature, hiding findings. AND it would have to take place across international borders- not just US and UK- because another country’s scientists might uncover the truth.

What is more likely a vast conspiracy and cover-up that lasted over two decades with no one speaking up or that maybe it never happened?

** hello, Rene, DPH

@ Julian,

You asked three questions but may I please take them one at a time, in order?

“What are these serious adverse events caused by vaccination that haven’t signalled yet?”

SIDS in infants (the post-natal brain). ASD in toddlers (the rapidly developing brain). Schizophrenia in young adults (the ‘adulting’ brain). GBS in adults (pre-aging brain). Alzheimer’s in seniors (the aging brain).

Clearly, there is NO evidence regarding vaccines as correlated with any of these (excepting GBS). Unless I plan on throwing ‘vaccine ingredients’ on the table, which I do not; I think that I would first have to show that ALL of the above are immune-mediated. Correct?

I can start there:

SIDS: interleukin-1. https://www.aan.com/PressRoom/home/PressRelease/10

Autism: IL-1R1, IL-10, IL-17, HLA-DR, GFAP (among many others). https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fncel.2018.00405/full

Schizophrenia: IL-1β, sIL-2r, IL-6 & TNF-α. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0920996414001133?via%3Dihub

Alzheimers: interleukin I, interleukin -6 & TNF-α: https://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2012/756357/

That’s just a start. Immune mediated.

At the moment the only conspiracy possibly at play is that pubMeds SERVER IS DOWN AGAIN. AAAUUGH … OMG; I am kidding about a conspiracy but why is it always down? And Google Scholar shuts me down for being ‘a robot’. Which I am not.

Unless I plan on throwing ‘vaccine ingredients’ on the table, which I do not; I think that I would first have to show that ALL of the above are immune-mediated. Correct?

Not exactly. You need to specify what would falsify your pet theory.

Christine Kincaid: You could be my senior by 30 years & you’d still be a comparative life-experience toddler.

Hah. Chronological age counts for shit if you’ve never been outside your ‘Pleasantville’ hometown and have no interactions with people who aren’t related to you. Have you ever been in a city in your life? Even had a conversation with a stranger? I’m seriously beginning to wonder if you had to make a daring escape from your home wrapped in a rug, because this is some Kimmy Schmidt/Room stuff right here.

Enjoy your time-warp town; I really despise the fifties, but I guess that’s just me.

Christine Kincaid: Please name one more thing I believe in that is not a matter of perspective.

Okay, you asked for it.

Christine Kincaid: the lost Smithsonian giant skeletons article where Snopes literally cites only the Smithsonian is fun too.

So, here, you pretty much said that the Smithsonian lost some artifacts and lied about it, and Snopes helped them cover it up. Because I guess giant skeletons prove the flood? (Hooray, a fundie pretending that she’s totally not rightwing.) Also, you know most of the myths about giant beings were created when ancient people found mammoth or dinosaur bones and had to come up with some sort of explanation, right?

Christine Kincaid: Birth Control reduces the fertility level in populations.

Both a conspiracy theory and a failure to understand birth control. It reduces an individual woman’s fertility for a period of time. If enough women chose to take birth control, the population does dip a little, but it doesn’t render entire cities and towns infertile.

Christine Kincaid: Don’t give me snopes, please? They cite themselves.

Basically you’re saying Snopes is full of liars. You do realize it’s not an academic website, right? It’s an aggregation of urban myths and why they’re wrong.

@ PGP,

So the only thing you got is what I mentioned as ‘known conspiracy theories’? You took me seriously? I’m so sorry; I know what it’s like to not get written sarcasm & more often than not, I’m the only one who gets me so that was a set-up-to fail.

I would have replied sooner but I’m hundreds of miles from home to see one of my daughters jazz concerts tomorrow, traveling with a dog & autistic 15 year old. He’s upset because Denver doesn’t have a Chinatown like NYC does. Where we went in March when two of my daughters played at Carnegie Hall. Where I took an awesome video of him dancing in the subway to street musicians playing ‘Stand By Me’.

This kid is a trooper. Even when the car broke down on Raton Pass at midnight during an apocalyptic thunderstorm (no cell service) & Leo from Roswell who spoke no English picked us up on the side of the highway. How many kids you ever travel with? Solely responsible for? Disabled? What’s your definition of ‘something going wrong’? Has it ever, really?

Hey, you ever buy those flavored condoms in the 1990s? Prolly not. Except for as a novelty item for amateurs; they really weren’t available retail. Ask your friendly public health epidemiology guy.

Oversharing. Not even close but necessary when trying to discuss vaccines with the well educated? Keep trying to box me in. It won’t work but it’s worth a laugh.

What Julian asked me; that’s why I’m here. Aarno, JustaTech, Alain; they probably don’t like me & don’t agree with me but at least they talk science. I’m not as smart as they are but I’ve learned from them already.

Do you want to educate antivaxxers or just play Mean Girl games?

Christine: Do you want to educate antivaxxers or just play Mean Girl games?

You started it. I told you, condescension gets you responses in kind. Either grow up or get off the internet and come back when you figure out how to deal with other adults.

As far as others go, most of them aren’t worth the effort. As Julian said, they’re arrogant and entitled, and generally unpleasant to boot. Also, they tend to rate people with Aspergers and autism as lower than dirt, even the ones they’re related to, which tends to get my back up, as I know some very nice people with Aspergers and autism both online and in real life. I wouldn’t treat a dog the way some of them treat their kids. Heck, I wouldn’t TALK about my dog the way you talk about your son. (El Torro, seriously? You make him sound like a werewolf.)

How are you from New York and yet totally ignorant of internet safety 101? I mean, ‘don’t tell people your details,’ and ‘don’t use your full name’ was standard internet advice even in the dark ages of dial up.

Not to mention your ignorance of sex ed. Haven’t you ever heard of ‘doubling up?’ Condoms are a good thing, yeah, but the only person you can really trust out there is your own self.

As far as things going wrong: well, I got hit by a car once. (Actually, a lot of the time I’ve been dogged by vehicular malfunctions- the time one car overheated stranding us in the middle of Up north, waiting for a tow, the time another car caught FIRE, the time the family got stranded in Wyoming, the time my bike got stolen from the library..etc.)

Then there was the fun time I had with temporary facial paralysis, the time my dad almost died, and most recently, my eldest niece’s two trips to the hospital. RSV is a bastard of a thing; I’m glad she didn’t pass it on to her sibling and that everyone in the family who could get a pertussis vaccine got one. I did mention my friend who had to leave the dorms when she got whooping cough, didn’t I? And, yes, I have looked after people who are disabled: one of my first jobs was assisting a stroke victim, and I helped look after my grandma who had dementia.

I’ve dealt with the many malfunctions of an apartment, including the time some dude downstairs managed to both flood his place and set off the fire alarm at too-early-o-clock, and that fun thing known as ‘trying to pay the rent,’ and ‘trying to figure out health insurance.’

Not all of us float along on your cloud of entitlement, you know. I live in the real world that you decided to beat a retreat from. You don’t get to judge me for that, mmmkay, Mrs. 1950?

@ PGP,

I’m sorry … I was too grouchy when I wrote that.

El Toro … was a reference to the Spanish fighting bull. That’s what my son reminded me of that night at the one & only PTA meeting I ever attended. He was 5. Literally lowered his head & grunted, charged through the media center & into a panel of full library shelves; knocking them over. It was as if there was a Matador that only he could see, waving their red cape.

You see my avatar; the white t-shirt lettering on the red over my shoulder. That is him now. And I am 5’10”. Every night before he goes to bed he asks me; ‘How did I do?’ because he wants to be the best kid ever. Which he is. He is struggling daily to fight against one of the worst disorders ever. He is my hero.

This morning he put me in a choke hold & punched me in the head four times. I got away by digging my nails into his arm & twisting away from him. I quickly grabbed a hold of him again because we were in a parking lot & he could bolt into a car.

He was confused; he thought we were going swimming BEFORE breakfast. Didn’t ‘use his words’ to clarify & had been fuming the whole way to breakfast. I had opened his door to let him out not knowing he was going to get me. And he got me really good.

Tonight he asked me, ‘how did I do?’ & I told him; ‘you did an amazing job today; I am so impressed with you!’ And he said ‘See, I told you! My new phase is: never punch my mom when she is driving!’. I’m not blowing smoke up his ass. If f I had to function with his level of impairment I’d be going into homicidal mode every day. The one time I told him he didn’t do very good (after he tried to strangle me with his iPad cord while I was driving); he had sobbed. Said he should have never been born.

Yes, he most certainly should have been born. He will change the world one day, for the better. You’ll see.

@ Christine K:

I’m not here now to present material about ASDs or physiology-

you need to get professional assistance in order to deal with your son.
I don’t know where you live ( city/ country) and if you are single, married or live with other people BUT
you can’t continue like this.

I know that services are frequently inadequate in many areas ( especially rural, some suburbs) and that you may live in a place with ZERO plans but you have to try until you get help.
There are various social services based in counties or hospitals. If you can’t find them, ask any doctor or nurse you know: they can give you ideas. There may be a day programme or school setting available for him that will allow you more time for yourself and possibly help him as well.
If you are repeatedly being hurt, you have to get help.

I know that you may feel like you would be betraying him but you have to find the right assistance for BOTH of you.
AND it doesn’t have to be a choice of being at home or in a residential setting- there are steps in between the two.

GET HELP for yourself first:
like in a plane emergency, how can you help other people if you can’t breathe?

@ PGP,

You had temp facial paralysis too? I was hospitalized with hyperemisis gravidarium & given Compazine IV x 3 days. An hour after I was discharged, my face started to ache. An hour after that & I looked like those old illustrations of ‘death by Tetanus’; my arms, spine & jaw twisted & contorted.

After receiving IV diphenhydramine, Compazine was noted as an ‘allergy’ on my chart. Reaction; ‘Pseudoparkinsonian’. I assumed that after 2 weeks of vomiting, my muscles lacked the sodium & calcium needed to ‘tremble’ & instead had locked up.

Come to find out, I have the mutation on the CYP2D6 gene causing poor metabolism of 25% of pharmaceuticals on the market today. Including compazine. Terrifying.

OK, let me get this straight: You were given Compazine for three days, and when it was stopped, you developed opisthotonus, so you’re allergic to it?

Also, I lived within walking distance of a ‘massage parlor’ as a kid. Which was, bizarrely, right by an ice cream place. (Took me YEARS to figure out why we usually went by car to get ice cream.)

@ Narad,

What would falsify my theory …

That the vaccines are not the trigger but an actual pathogen? It seems as though HSV is being mentioned quite a bit.

If this is the case I will never have an answer. Aaby’s research suggests negative non-specific effects for immunity against pathogens with DTP but positive NSEs from the MV.

If HSV were ‘the’pathogen, the response might just be another vaccine, despite that a vaccine could be enabling the HSV.

DTaP , now in use,is killed vaccine, no pathogens in it. As for DTP, a curious paper
Safety and immunogenicity of bacille Calmette-Guérin, diphtheria-tetanuspertussis, and oral polio vaccines in newborn children in Zaire infected with human immunodeficiency virus type 1
R.W.Ryder,J.Oxtoby,M.Mvula,V.Batter,E.Baende,W.Nsa,.F.Davachi,S.Hassig,I.Onora,DA.Deforest,M.Kashamuka,W.L.Heyward
Ho would vaccine enable HSV ?

@ Aarno,

I forgot to mention that I’ve seen research showing VERY positive effects from BCG. It’s not used here in the U.S. but I could only read the abstract of your link on Elsevier because of pubmeds server issues. Am I the only one having this problem? I usually have at least one tab up on pubmed 24/7 & I have’t been able to access anything for days now.

I could only read the abstract of your link on Elsevier because of pubmeds server issues

The paper is paywalled.

^ But if you really want to read it, it’s easy enough to find from the usual suspects for bootlegged papers. Hint: DOI.

What would falsify my theory …
That the vaccines are not the trigger but an actual pathogen? It seems as though HSV is being mentioned quite a bit.

This is a non sequitur.

A non-sequitur …

Oh, okay I will try again. My theory wold be falsified if there was no actual increase in SIDS, ASD, Schizophrenia & Alzheimer’s?

SIDS rates came down after the ‘back to sleep’ campaign but ‘back to sleep’ reduces mortality for adult epileptics too. It’s basically an intervention to reduce death from seizures.

https://www.mdedge.com/neurology/epilepsyresourcecenter/article/148159/sleep-age-and-prone-position-linked-sudep

Are coroners not detecting the occurrence of fatal seizures in infants with no history of a seizure disorder?

@ Denice,

I know. I really do know this intellectually, it’s just so hard to apply in real life.

This morning I woke up fighting for my life as he attempted trying to smother me by pinning his over-sized pillow over my face.

Twenty minutes later he was happily showing me his latest drawing of Koala bears.

He qualifies for Colorado’s Autism Waiver & received services & therapy for four years under it. Ironically, I cancelled everything about 6 months ago because I didn’t want him hurting anyone. I could see it; that slight change in body posture & that look in his eye but they couldn’t & would just continue on with challenging him.

If I hadn’t been watching him like a hawk, somebody would have gotten clobbered & he’s not some scrawny kid flailing around indiscriminately; he packs a mean punch. Not only that but they would get him riled up & then they got to LEAVE & leave me with the fallout. Not to mention that I was undermining any benefits by interfering.

If I could find people who understood the risks, had been properly trained in safe-restraint & deescalation & had the sheer size & strength to manage him; that would be ideal.

I’ve known this was a potential since he was about four years old. I read every case report & anecdotal article I could get my hands on & noticed a correlation between males at a certain level of functioning at age 5 & the escalation of aggression & violence at the onset of puberty. I also noticed that off-label prescribing of psychotropics seemed correlated with a continuing of violence past that ‘adulting’ brain development stage, while non-pharmaceutical use seemed correlated with deescalation of violence after ‘adulting’.

So my only intervention has been to keep him free from all potential effectors; including alternative measures. One case in point that haunts me is the case of professor Trudy Steuernagel & her son Sky:

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2009/12/kent_state_professor_trudy_ste.html

As I said, if their were resources available that met the criteria I believe is needed (properly trained in safe-restraint & deescalation, size & strength to manage, etc … ) & covered by his waiver (I’m sure it would be with the adequate certifications), I would be all over it.

You need to talk to SOMEONE now. We are only internet creatures and can’t do anything. Tell your worries/ criteria to people who can help you. A doctor you know can be a start.

@ Denice,

I know & I will. I really will. I’m sort of not confident that I’m going to be able to communicate effectively with providers about this. I’ve never met one who knew who Trudy Steurnagel was or had any knowledge about the consistencies in the case histories.

When I say things like ‘Beware when he talks clearly, stops flapping & maintains eye contact. When he lurks in your blind spot; run. If he vocalizes a sound like a steam release valve; duck & cover your head …’

They look at me with blank stares.

The most help comes from my six older sons but only the youngest of them is still living at home (but works all the time). He’s bigger than all but two of them (ages 23-33) but they are a rough & tumble lot & can restrain him safely in seconds. When he lands a punch on them they just laugh.

He says funny things like ‘I hate big brothers when they yell at me for a good reason’ (yeah?) but he goes after them with a smile on his face because he knows they will tackle him & tickle him & cause a calamity.

95% of the time, I think he wishes I would go ‘RAAARGH!!’ & pounce on him, rolling around on the floor & such but … I’m a mom. The other 5% of the time; he’s out for blood.

I know I need help because his brain won’t be ‘adulting’ for at least a decade & his dad is 13 years older than I am.

I’ll agree with Denice here. One of my cousins works in special Ed, he usually works at a day-time facility run through the Easter Seals. His specialty is working with teenage boys with autism; part of this is his training and part of this is that he is a rectangular human, he’s built like a brick and knows how to restrain kids/young adults without anyone getting hurt.

People are trained in this, to work with kids without anyone getting hurt. You don’t have to do it alone.

@ Narad,

I had been receiving compazine IV while inpatient. Discharged with a prescription for p.o. & had taken it once orally prior to discharge.

This is unrelated but I find this ‘anecdote’ to be intriguing:

Joe Tippens was only given three months to live. But doctors later enrolled him in a clinical trial they hoped could give him more time.

Tippens said he received a tip from a veterinarian who suggested he try a dog dewormer drug called fenbendazole, which was believed to display cancer-fighting properties, according to cell studies.

In his blog, Tippens wrote that after receiving his fourth cancer-free diagnosis at the University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston last April, the results indicated that his cancer was gone after two years of treatment.

Dr. Stephen Prescott, Oklahoma Medical Research Foundation president, said Tippens’ story interested him after speaking to a scientist at Johns Hopkins University who conducted a case study where scientists implanted immune-deficient mice with human tumors.

While the experiment was still in progress, a veterinarian at Johns Hopkins University put the mice on the same deworming medications that Tippens used.

After examining the results, scientists found that the implanted tumors would not grow, he said.

“They were trying to make cancer in mice and unbeknownst to them, something that the veterinarian in the facility had done prevented that,” Prescott said.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20486893

https://www.mycancerstory.rocks/single-post/2016/08/22/Shake-up-your-life-how-to-change-your-own-perspective

I included the Ycombinator ‘hacker news’ discussion link for those around the globe who can’t veiw the article due to the site blocking those under GDPR — the full text is posted in the comments.

Shoot, I forgot Julian said he had a spider bite on his hand. I hope he’s okay.

I’m fine now. Thanks for your concern. Now on to your data.

SIDS in infants (the post-natal brain). ASD in toddlers (the rapidly developing brain). Schizophrenia in young adults (the ‘adulting’ brain). GBS in adults (pre-aging brain). Alzheimer’s in seniors (the aging brain).

GBS was found to be 17 times more common in those who developed the flu than in those who got jabbed. So it’s possible that the flu vaccine had an effect, but I’d take that risk over the flu any day.

I think that I would first have to show that ALL of the above are immune-mediated. Correct?

Not necessarily, just that there was an effect that could be shown to have been caused by the vaccine. But I suppose it’s as good a starting point as any.
From the SIDS/Interleukin article you posted:

Researchers studied the brains of 27 infants. Nineteen died from SIDS, and eight died from other conditions.

Only 27 subjects. A starting point. In fact, the article mentions criticism.

An editorial in the same issue of Neurology says the study results are subject to criticism because there is no agreement on what is a suitable control group to compare with SIDS infants.

So possible, but not definitive.

The rest of your cites are a starting point. You still need to show that vaccination is responsible for these cytokine increases, and that the increases induced by vaccination are severe enough to cause these conditions.

@ Julian, Glad you are okay!

“GBS was found to be 17 times more common in those who developed the flu than in those who got jabbed.”

True that. I included it for two reasons. One; it is actually compensable in VC (vaccine court). Two; I’m noticing a trend that is purely anecdotal (because it’s via message boards & forums). The trend is among mothers who report having autistic & unvaccinated children & it involves MIA (maternal immune activation), because they ALL report having had the flu while pregnant. All of them. If they don’t state it, I ask & I’ve not been wrong.

Typically; I despise the MIA theory because as soon as the literature started reporting very consistent findings of atypical immune activation in autism, it seems like there was a rush of research trying to establish MIA as causative for autism. A sort of ‘save the vaccines’ campaign.

That would also set precedent for encouraging MORE vaccines in women of childbearing age, not less. My pet name for this is the ‘Zombie Mommy’ theory; that suddenly in the last several decades we have a phenomena involving infected pregnant moms running around. Hmm, no.

If GBS can result from both vaccines & the pathogen & autism might result from a pathogen; then why is it counter intuitive to think that maybe … Autism could result from the vaccines?

Next up: SIDS. Showing that vaccination is responsible for the cytokine increase is the biggest challenge. Especially since the recent ‘save the vaccines’ campaign is trying very hard to do exactly the opposite. I’m confident that if it’s out there; I can find it.

If GBS can result from both vaccines & the pathogen & autism might result from a pathogen; then why is it counter intuitive to think that maybe … Autism could result from the vaccines?

It’s not counterintuitive (as though intuition were useful in this context to start with), it’s a peculiar attempt at circular reasoning.

@ Julian,

It occurs to me that you specifically said; “cytokine increases induced by vaccination” . Are INCREASED cytokines the default setting post-vaccination? Expected? Desired? I’m finding ALTERED cytokine profiles. Dysregulation, I suppose. Both post-vaccination:

https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/211/7/1174/838329

And in Autism:

https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/492113

Please understand I’m still unable to access pubmed in it’s entirety; it can’t possibly be a server issue at this point (I’m blocked?) & that Google Scholar is intentionally unwieldy for me (I’m considered a security risk just because I read fast & they think I’m a data mining bot). I can manage on Google fine, just slower.

But did you mean increased, or no?

Please understand I’m still unable to access pubmed in it’s entirety; it can’t possibly be a server issue at this point (I’m blocked?)

What in G-d’s name are you jabbering about? Do you honestly not understand that not every paper indexed by Pubmed is open-access?

^ For that matter, both of the papers you linked to are freely available. Why the fuck would Pubmed suddenly choose to selectively block some random person? Seriously, you seem to need remedial Internet training on top of everything else.

Narad,

I remember reading somewhere that Christine keep a long-running browser tab open on pubmed; long-running as in running for more than a week in which she use to post queries.

Christine, restart your browser and computer once or twice a week.

Alain

@ Narad,

Yes; intuition. It would be better, I think, to say ‘counter-cognitive’ but that’s awkward sounding.’ Counter-intelligence’ has sort of become a noun.

‘Circular reasoning’ … Why, that’s much better than what I was bracing myself for. I was sure I had just invoked multiple fallacies or ‘arguments by …’.

Is circular reasoning considered always flawed? Or no?

@ Narad,

Yes, I know how to use pubmed. Sometimes I search on PubMed using the ‘free full text available’ filter. Other times I copy/paste into google, browser or use links available for free through my local public library.

What is happening is that all options to access PubMed result in a ‘server is down’ page. I can’t even get to the home page at all. My google search keywords ‘cytokine vaccine’ pulled up almost exclusively ‘ncbi’ results & none of them worked.

Ah, now it just worked from the iPad; first time in days but it’s using cellular not WiFi, because I was just on the highway. I’m used to the ‘server is down’ error page at least once every 24 hours & usually around 0100 but this has been unusual. And annoying.

I’m used to the ‘server is down’ error page at least once every 24 hours & usually around 0100 but this has been unusual.

Well, if it’s always around the same time, they’re probably doing something that’s supposed to pass for “maintenance.” I hadn’t looked at it for a while because of a move to a lower stage with more primitive lines, but I now see that there’s some sort of clumsy redesign afoot. The advanced search seems to be unmolested for the time being.

@ Alain,

Not at all! My son brought the iPad & he was on it in the back seat. He has to sit in the back even though he is 6’3″ because he can, will & has opened the door when I was driving but I keep the child safety locks engaged in the back & it can only be opened from the outside.

He had probably turned the WiFi off in the car & it was using cellular service. At home, I switched it back to use our WiFi but I had checked PubMed first (because I’m a nerd) after getting home.

I can’t stand it when people drive distracted. Last year his dad’s truck was totaled when he was hit by a young woman who was texting while driving; no way!

@ Julian,

Just to show you what I have to work with now that I can use PubMed again.

Keywords: interleukin 1 + SIDS = 27 results.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=interleukin+1+SIDS

Keywords: interleukin 1 vaccines = 538 results
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=interleukin+1+vaccines

Keywords: interleukin 1 + SIDS + vaccine = Zero results.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=interleukin+1+SIDS+vaccine

LOL … Tried to switch ‘vaccine’ out with ‘Immunization’ & it froze but let me use search bar. Tried ‘interleukin + DTP’ & it’s totally useless now.

Mkay, back to google. Cardio respiratory events are not synonymous with SIDS. Or could they be?

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/101/3/e3.full.pdf?download=true

@ Narad,

That remains to be seen …

I’ve only read 8 of them so far; 2 genotype studies. One positive, one negative. One nicotine exposure & the remaining five are positive.

But I’ve got 19 left to go, so …

@ Narad,

Also, you do realize I was making a point? Thousands of anecdotal reports of vaccines causing SIDS. Hundreds of formal, legal allegations of vaccines causing SIDS.

Proof that altered cytokine profiles are found in SIDS. 500+ articles about post-vaccination cytokines altered; compared to pre or non-vaccinated cytokine profiles.

Zero studies connecting the dots of cytokines, vaccines & SIDS.

And a scientific consensus that there is zero evidence that vaccines cause SIDS.

Well, at least that’s not a lie …

I mean; that would be antivaccine.

It’s worse than that for the notion that vaccines cause or contribute to SIDS. The incidence of SIDS is actually lower in the vaccinated than in the unvaccinated. Now, that number didn’t quite achieve statistical significance; so we can’t say for sure if vaccines are protective against SIDS. However, we can very confidently say that there is, at minimum, no association between vaccination and SIDS, and we can even suggest that vaccines might actually have a protective effect against SIDS.

Hey. I work. And I sleep. Sometimes things will sit in moderation for several hours if I’m too busy at work to check the moderation queue or if I’m asleep.

@ Orac,

I think you are speaking of the epidemiology, which I am aware does actually show some indication of vaccines as protective against SIDS. My point of contention is that something is wrong with the epidemiology.

My thought is that since epidemiology cannot prove causation; that if I were to try to prove that vaccines are causative for SIDS, I have to do so biologically & that’s what I am trying to do by following the cytokine profile research.

In the very minimal research that has been done; I’m finding very little proof that vaccines could not be biologically implicated in SIDS. I’m finding quite a bit of proof that they could be.

I am not trying to re-work someone else’s epidemiology. That’s not how this works anyway, it’s sort of considered ‘bad-manners’ in science. I am aware that if the biology contradicts the epidemiology; the epidemiologists have no choice but to go back to the drawing board.

I want to do that. I want to put a question mark in just one epidemiologists brain. My informal keyword search results on PubMed indicate that there have been exactly zero question marks despite (so far) 6 contradictions (because I have only read 8 of the 27 studies available, where 1 found a genotype-dependent correlation, 1 did not find a genotype-dependent correlation & 1 was regarding nicotine exposure).

Even if I did not read the remaining 19 studies; 22% of the 27 have already shown a biological correlation of vaccines to SIDS & 75% of the 8 studies I have read have too. Is that not statistically significant?

You have it backwards. If there is no epidemiological correlation between vaccination and SIDS, as has been shown in large, well-designed studies, then there is no good scientific rationale to look for a “biological mechanism” of “vaccine-induced” SIDS. You are presupposing causation and looking for evidence that might support your belief. That’s motivated reasoning, not science.

I understand that. But the anecdotal has defied the epidemiology. Consistently & for decades. There are two choices.

Find a different biological cause for SIDS or re-examine the epidemiology. Laying babies in a prone position is not a biological explanation.

There is no known biological etiology for SIDS.

There is research showing cytokine profiles are associated with SIDS.

There is research showing that vaccination effects similar cytokine profiles.

Which is worse; motivated reasoning or motivated science?

False dichotomy. There is a third choice: Accept the conclusions of epidemiology, because, when you have anecdotes versus epidemiology, epidemiology wins, given that anecdotes almost ALWAYS defy epidemiology in these issues. After all, anecdotes have “defied epidemiology” with respect to the claim by antivaxers that vaccines cause autism and have done so for at least two decades. In that time, have been several high quality epidemiological studies with a cumulative total of millions of subjects, and no “signal” indicating that vaccines might cause or contribute to autism has yet been found. Without epidemiological evidence that vaccines cause or contribute to SIDS, doing any studies looking for a “mechanism” by which vaccines could cause SIDS (or autism) is a waste of resources because such research would be examining an already falsified hypothesis.

Finally, the “motivated science” you describe is based on motivated reasoning. So they’re basically the same level of badness.

@Christine K:

I understand that. But the anecdotal has defied the epidemiology.

So what?
There are people who believe that the Earth is flat.
There are people who believe that the Sun goes round the Earth.
There are people who believe that the Moon Landings were a hoax.
There are people who deny the Holocaust.
All of these beliefs are not just false, they are confirmably and irrefutably false.
Anecdote is a starting point, not an end point. We use science because as Richard Feynman said, “In science, the first rule is not to fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.”

Precisely. When anecdotes meet science, including epidemiology, science wins. At most, anecdotes are hypothesis-generating, not hypothesis testing.

@ Julian & Orac,

I do not believe the earth is flat, because: I have seen the science. I have seen other planets & moons through telescopes & I see that all ‘earths’ are round. I have seen the earths curvature through an airplanes window. I can think of no motivation for the earth to be flat yet to convince he masses that it is round.

The science makes sense. If I had indeed traveled to the ends of the earth I would not think the same way. I have yet to travel to the edge of the earth or meet anyone who has.

You say the science proves that vaccines do not cause SIDS.

I have seen the science that says the DTP is causing increased mortality in females in Guinea-Bissau. I have seen the science that says vaccines have caused cardio-respiratory events in infants with Dravet syndrome & I have seen the science that shows the DTP increases mortality in premature infants.

And in 1994, I woke up one morning to check on my infant twins & walked in to see one pair of kicking pink legs next to one pair of still, china-white legs. It is a sight I will never be able to unsee. Days later, I buried my prematurely born, female child; who had died of SIDS within 24 hours of her DTP immunization.

Your science does not make nearly as much sense to me as the science I have seen does. The fact that because some think the earth is flat that means that I am wrong is the highest degree of insult I can think of. If that’s the best you have; do better. I believe in you.

@ Chris,

Huh? It’s my understanding they can’t give children back once they are dead. So she’s still gone, thanks.

You made a claim, and if the vaccine was the reason then you could have been financially compensated. So did you lose due to lack of medical data?

The fact that because some think the earth is flat that means that I am wrong is the highest degree of insult I can think of.

Again, you miss my point. My point was there are people who firmly believe in things that are demonstrably and proveably false. I am saying the scientific evidence as it stands refutes your contention. If you want us to take you seriously, bring good scientific evidence. Claiming that there is a problem with the science because “anecdotal evidence is against it” simply doesn’t cut it here.

@ Julian,

I did not say the ‘anecdotal evidence is against it’.

I said the anecdotal evidence defies the epidemiology. I have also shown that there is strong evidence in the epidemiology from Guinea-Bissau, that causation has been establish for Dravet Syndrome & that there is strong evidence regarding premature infants; that the DTP is causing ‘cardio-respiratory events’.

SIDS is a cardio-respiratory event.

Now; the epidemiology is not just defied by the anecdotal but also the scientific research.

And Orac says that to re-evaluate the epidemiology is ‘backwards’, not justified?

I did not say the ‘anecdotal evidence is against it’.

I said the anecdotal evidence defies the epidemiology.

Tom-ah-to, tom-ay-to.

…that there is strong evidence regarding premature infants; that the DTP is causing ‘cardio-respiratory events’.

SIDS is a cardio-respiratory event.

My chair has four legs, cows have four legs, my chair is a cow. You are stating a logical fallacy.

Orac: However, we can very confidently say that there is, at minimum, no association between vaccination and SIDS, and we can even suggest that vaccines might actually have a protective effect against SIDS.

That’s very interesting. I wonder what the mechanism is.

Christine: I had Bell’s Palsy, so simple partial facial paralysis. Chicken pox really likes to linger, and have decades of fun with the immune system. Luckily, I got good medical advice. Haven’t had any problems since, though I’m getting that shingles vaccine as soon as I can.

To be fair, I tend to have my hackles up pretty high when dealing with some commenters. I can’t always tell if someone’s really thick as a brick or if they’re just pretending to be. (Although, why did you pretend to be a New Yorker if you’re based in Colorado?)

@ PGP,

Oh no! I see what happened … you said; “Have you ever been in a city in your life?” & I said I WENT to NYC in March (& it was amazing).

I DON’T get to travel much anymore; it’s very hard with a big, volatile adolescent boy with autism. That was his first time on a plane & he did perfect. Actually, he was perfect the entire trip. His ‘special interest’ is traveling. He wants to go literally everywhere but we don’t have the money since I’ve been care giving for 12 years, so this was a real treat … financed by Grandpa.

You hit a nerve, (despite that I WAS born in Tokyo) I’m sorry I wasn’t clear.

Christine: Oh, I see. Yeah, I kinda figured you weren’t a New Yorker, you don’t really seem like a city person. It’s cool that you got to go. I want to see it someday myself, hopefully before my idea to take down the Statue of Liberty goes through.

@ PGP,

It’s all good. NYC was so freaking cool. Luke’s always wanted to go; he’s drawn to urban, metropolitan areas. Everyone told me I was crazy for trying but he did amazing; it’s like he was in his element. I’m the only person who had NO issues with the hustlers in Times Square. He’s huge & he has an atypical gait; he lunges with both fists clenched, held up like a boxer. It was like Moses parting the red sea …

Yes, you should go, before they take down the Statue off Liberty, LOL; what’s that even about?

@ Chris, again:

Almost all claims for SIDS are denied in vaccine court.

To prevail, a parent must not only prove that a vaccine could cause SIDS (as I have shown here) but that the vaccine did cause their child’s SIDS.

It is a set-up to fail. There is no way most families could shoulder that burden. My observations of a daughters reaction to nuts is considered good enough for ‘Nut allergy’ to be listed on her medical record, for an epi-pen to be issued & for both school & other facilities to avoid giving her food with nuts but my observation of another daughters death to a vaccine isn’t good enough for … anything.

Because you had to prove it! Especially since your twins had two real reasons to more likely to die from SIDS.

While the Vaccine Court is not your kids’ school, the evidence required is much much less than a regular court room.

To prevail, a parent must not only prove that a vaccine could cause SIDS (as I have shown here) but that the vaccine did cause their child’s SIDS.

The standard is preponderance of the evidence (and the other two Althen prongs). Moreover, you haven’t shown anything, instead just flinging cytokine references like a bonobo.

Here is a salient appeal decision (PDF).

I don’t know that it’s a matter of believing anything. All the same, it doesn’t gel on a scientific level, and that case sets out what evidence doesn’t work, not to mention the expert witness who doesn’t either.

Okay, I guess she was not wrong when she said: “Almost all claims for SIDS are denied in vaccine court.”

No, I never mentioned VAERS. I am saying if you had actual medical evidence you would have pursued all of the options on the Vaccine Information Sheet, especially making a claim of your very tragic loss with the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. So you did not even bother? Apparently you just pull out this very very sad story for drama and sympathy but absolutely no evidence.

Without evidence there is no reason to believe that a vaccine had anything with you losing one of your premature twins:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/06/170626124347.htm
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/347354

I am very sorry you went through that, but does not forgive from you promoting ideas that would increase the chance of it happening to someone else by claiming vaccines did it.

@ Chris,

When did I state I filed a claim with the NVICP?

I have never filed nor have I EVER said I’ve filed. I want nothing to do with them; they have no clue what they are doing or why.

@ Narad,

What you said. That’s all I was trying to say. Certainly, anything I could find has been found already, testified on in court & it doesn’t work.

Maybe all children should have a baseline profile done about 5 minutes prior to vaccination. I’m sure the CDC wouldn’t mind picking up the tab or a moth or two? Y’know; to prove once & for all how safe their vaccines are?

@ Narad,
What you said. That’s all I was trying to say.

That all this cytokine babbling has been a waste of everybody’s time? Fantastic.

@ Narad,

(sigh) No, Narad. I hope it wasn’t a waste of time. I wanted to spark someone’s … anyone’s … interest. I wanted for someone to look at the profiles, see the consistencies & take two seconds to critically think. I think you guys are smart. I’m counting on it.

Maybe it didn’t work. Maybe it did. I know I’m probably just amusing to you, in an annoying sort of way but I don’t think you think I’m as stupid as you want me to think I think you do. Ha! That was fun to write …

Christine Kincaid: The statue of liberty thing is a movement I’m trying to kickstart. At the moment, Lady Liberty is false advertising. Americans need to own up that we never ever intended to live up to Emma Lazurus’s words.

Also, aside from proximity, why do you hold the DPT solely responsible? My mom’s a medical professional and she deals with a lot of premies, and..well, there’s a lot of work that goes into keeping those kids alive. Even when they’re sent home, a lot need follow-up care. Some have to get lung transplants or require other surgeries that just can’t be done until they get a little older.

The short version is I think you decided on a simple answer based on nothing more than your own gut, rather than looking at all the factors. I understand you’re still grieving, but that’s no reason to put another family through the wringer.

As for the medical profile, that’s not something that can be done quickly. Doing it for EVERY child would be intense, time consuming, costly, and unnerve parents. At best, vaccines would be delayed for months and the cost of checkups would rise steeply. At worse, parents would decide the doctors and staff were asking too many questions and stop seeking medical care. I suspect a lot of doctors would stop practicing as well, since they’d be too busy with the paperwork to do their jobs.

@ PGP,

Re; Statue of Liberty. You’re not actually wrong. My mom was first generation American born; spoke no English when she started public school in Denver. That’s like a ‘hiccup’ in time (most families are multi-generations from original immigration). Part of the thrill of seeing Liberty from the ferry was to imagine my grandfather at age 14, all alone with nothing but the shirt on his back & how he must have felt, seeing her from the boat. It’s not like that anymore.

I’m focusing on the DTP because that pertussis, especially before it was changed to the acellular, is actually awful. I know we don’t use it here anymore but it’s still used in other parts of the world & the WHO has been appealed regarding their recommendation of it.

Research is showing that it’s leading to increased mortality in females only, in third world countries & that it’s causing ‘cardio-respiratory’ events in preemies, However; there is also evidence showing that these negative, non-specific effects can be negated by delaying the DTP & administering the BCG first. This has actually decreased the mortality. We do not use the BCG here in the US. The DTaP replaced the DTP because it ‘was more effective’. Or something.

@ PGP,

My idea about the profiles is admittedly flawed. There would be no value to having it done in regards to having any indication that vaccination might be contraindicated.

It’s only value would be after-the-fact; that it could help prove causation for compensation in court. That doesn’t bring kids back … Any parent who has lost a child would tell you that they would forgo all worldly possessions just to have their child back in their arms. So, yeah; it’s flawed.

Christine Kincaid: I’m focusing on the DTP because that pertussis, especially before it was changed to the acellular, is actually awful.

Actual pertussis is worse then the vaccine.I’m not quite convinced of the value of the DTAP, because the acellular version loses effectiveness fast. The DTP at least covered people for ten years.

CK: Any parent who has lost a child would tell you that they would forgo all worldly possessions just to have their child back in their arms.

Ok, so why do you want OTHER parents to lose their kids!? To keep your daughter company?

People have lost kids to pertussis in Australia and the US, and probably other countries as well. Two kids in the US in the past year have nearly died from tetanus. (And we can’t exactly get rid of tetanus. Irradiating soil isn’t recommended.)

Diptheria at least is still subdued, but that’s lethal to kids (and adults) too. I’m sure there have been isolated outbreaks already.

@ PGP,

Ok, so why do you want OTHER parents to lose their kids!? To keep your daughter company

Do you not EVER count to 10 before you fire away? Takes one to know one; sometimes I just have to breathe. I’m not sure that it worked for me this time.

How ’bout this:How bout other people worry about their own damn kids, get them as tanked up on vaccines as they choose & leave mine alone

How bout we quit fear mongering people into believing that my child’s death was an acceptable loss so that theirs might live?

How bout we quit requiring me to GAF about a fever & spots when it took me 20 years to to be able to fall asleep without fearing that I would dream of carrying blue children through a black night & wake up screaming?

Other people’s kids? I gave two … NEXT

Oh. It didn’t work.

Christine Kincaid: First of all, I don’t need any hippie dippie fertilizer in my life, thanks. And I am a fucking adult. Please keep that in mind.

Secondly, you are again looking for a simple answer when, sadly, there isn’t one. You are allowed your own opinion, just not your own facts. (And given that you can’t seem to get that epedemiology is a branch of biology, your interpretation of pub med papers is about as valid as tea leaf reading.)

As far as caring about other’s kids, well, let me put it this way: if my house catches fire, I am not allowed to burn the neighbor’s house down. That your daughter died is tragic, but that doesn’t give you the right to run your neighbor’s children over or shoot them.

It’s odd that most anti-vaxxers have, themselves, been vaccinated, and would likely scream blue murder if they got on the wrong side of a quarantine. But that’s 2019, I guess.

@ PGP,

Um. I’ve been on the ‘wrong’ side of a quarantine before. It’s sorta what I signed up for.

Christine Kincaid: No, that’s just self-imposed exile I’ve studied quarantines before. You know what it means? It means an entire city is shut down. No transit, no libraries,no shipping. And if someone has the misfortune of vacationing there, well, they’re not getting home anytime soon.

@ PGP,

No, I know exactly what a quarantine is. My great-great uncle was a director of county health during the Spanish Flu epidemic & he was resented for shutting down Boulder, CO after an infamous wedding where the bride kissed each of her 28 wedding guests & they all came down with influenza & several died.

I worked on a quarantined Pediatric ward in 1998 during an RSV epidemic where people were running into our ER holding blue children & I’ve worked with highly infectious patients (TB, Respiratory MRSA, etc …) in negative-flow wards.

I know ‘the wrong side’ very well, thanks.

Christine Kincaid:I know ‘the wrong side’ very well, thanks.

Then why do you want those days back? Why burn the neighbor’s house down just because you had a house fire? Most anti-vaxxers don’t get history, most haven’t had ANY basic biology, and yet you claim to both know history and have worked in a hospital. Yet somehow, vaccines are worse than entire cities shut down, and you’d see a cemetery full of children’s tombstones and go ‘yeah, I’m ok with that.’ Wow, lady, wow.

[…] What is SB 276? It’s a successor to SB 277 necessitated by a loophole in SB 277. The greatest flaw in SB 277 is that it permits basically any physician to write a letter claiming a medical exemption to school vaccine mandates for a patient, rather than requiring state oversight to mae sure that only medically valid medical exemptions were granted. Predictably, the antivaccine quacks in California saw this loophole as an opportunity. SB 277 took full effect at the beginning of the 2016-2017 school year, and for a while things went quite well. Early results showed that SB 277 was working swimmingly. The percentage of children not vaccinated plummeted. There was, however, a troubling sign when the study showing the improvement in vaccine uptake was published two years ago. There was a significant uptick in the medical exemption rate. At the time it was speculated that some of the increase in the medical exemption rate was due to parents of children who did have medical conditions for which a medical exemption was legitimately indicated but had just opted out using a PBE because it was so much easier. Into this morass soon plunged Dr. Bob Sears leading the way teaching parents how to secure medical exemptions for questionable indications. Soon, there was a cottage industry of quacks selling bogus medical exemptions to school vaccine mandates, even online. Indeed, in the Bay area five doctors wrote one-third of the medical exemption letters. Last month, it was noted that, for the first time since SB 277 went into effect, vaccination rates in California declined slightly. […]

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