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Vaccine Injury Epidemic (VIE) Event: Antivaxers will march on Washington again

Antivaxers are going to descend on Washington for their Vaccine Injury Epidemic (VIE) Event in November. Meet the new antivax march, same as the old antivaccine march.

If there’s one thing antivaxers want, it’s to be taken seriously. They labor under the delusion that they represent some sort of mass movement. While they’re more influential than they should be for a group promoting a dangerous anti-science and anti-health message, fortunately the hard core antivaxers still represent a tiny fraction of the population. Still, they keep trying. One tool they like to use every now and then is to try to hold a mass demonstration. The first one of these that I wrote about occurred over a decade ago. It was led by Jenny McCarthy and her then-boyfriend Jim Carrey and was called the “Green Our Vaccines” rally. It was…interesting. For example, there I first understood the tensions in the antivaccine movement from the antivaxers who want to appear “respectable” and those who are loud and proud in being antivaccine. The first group, I like to refer to as the “I’m not antivaccine” antivaxers. They’re the ones who say, “I’m not antivaccine; I’m a vaccine safety activist” or “I’m not antivaccine; I’m just suspicious of big pharma” or some variant. The point is that they deny being antivaccine, but there’s always a “but” or a qualification to their denial. Their antivaccine beliefs are always couched in something else, with “freedom” or “parental rights” being the most popular camouflage these days. In any event, they’re at it again. This time around, the event is called the Vaccine Injury Epidemic (VIE) event:

The V.I.E Event is a special event on the National Mall. We are kindly asking attendees to consider contributing towards our event expenses via a ticket donation. Donations are not required for attending, but for this event make the national presence we need, we are incurring event expenses for insurance, staging, electric, bathrooms and more, and cannot do with with our generous donations from our warrior families.

We understand the financial undertaking in attending this event and we have secured a limited amount of discounted hotel rooms to help offset costs. Currently discounts give a savings of $100 per night. If you have a large party, please send us a PM via our Facebook page where we will be happy to assist.

The organizers, CrazyMothers, is a registered 501 (c)(3) non-profit organization.

CrazyMothers is the group organizing VIE? Oh, great. That’s Hillary Simpson’s group of antivaccine mothers. You might remember that Simpson seems to fancy herself a female Eminem freestyle rapper. In fact, I think I’ll repost the video here, but I warn you: It’s painful indeed to watch:

As I said at the time, I had a hard time not laughing out loud the first time I watched this video because Ms. Simpson seemed to think that she was Eminem freestyle rapping, but she was so overwrought and her act and rap were so very, very bad. Her rhymes and lines most definitely were not anything even coming close to resembling sick, and her dramatic pauses lingered far, far too long, to the point of being uncomfortable—and not in a good way. In fact, I couldn’t help but think that she reminded me more of a parody of an Eminem video, with all her rhythmic hand motions in time with her seeming free verse, than an homage or an attempt to emulate his rapping. Yes, Ms. Simpson’s video was basically the sort of performance you might see on open mic night at the suburban rap club, and even by those low standards Ms. Simpson was not very good.

In any event, somehow I missed this call to action by Simpson a couple of months ago:

Yes, she was all worked up over laws being passed that eliminate nonmedical exemptions to school vaccine mandates, ranting about how it’s not about vaccination but about “medical freedom” and how fellow antivaxers (obviously, she didn’t all them that) “have to get to Washington” to show lawmakers how many people are fed up with vaccines, big pharma, the elimination of nonmedical exemptions, and all the things they blame vaccines on. Apparently, the date (November 14) was chosen to coincide with the 33rd anniversary of the passage of the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986, a law that, oddly enough, the grand dame of the antivaccine movement, Barbara Loe Fisher, helped to pass with her activism but that has now become the most hated law among antivaxers other than laws like California’s SB 277, which eliminated nonmedical exemptions to school vaccine mandates in the state.

Why is the NVCIA so hated? You’d think that antivaxers would like it, given that it created the Vaccine Court, a court that not only pays the legal expenses of complainants bringing cases before it, win or lose, but has fairly lax scientific standards in that it accepts claims of causation and allows the most dubious of scientific “experts” to testify compared to what normal courts will allow. Even better, there is a list of “table injuries” that are assumed to be due to vaccines based on evidence and for which compensation is automatic. Oddly enough, antivaxers do not like the antivaccine court. The reason is that, as lax as it might be, the Vaccine Court still operates on science. Sure, it screws up on rare occasions, but only rarely are its decisions not heavily grounded in science and the screw-ups tend to favor complainants, rather than inappropriately denying compensation to them. So basically, the Vaccine Court provides more reliable compensation than regular courts and costs complainants nothing to bring a case before it, but becauew its decisions are science-based it does not compensate families of children with autism who blame their child’s autism on vaccines. It does very well at compensating true cases of vaccine injury, but it doesn’t compensate what antivaxers blame vaccines for. Not surprisingly, lawyers who sue for “vaccine injury” also hate it. They want big payouts from which they can take a big chunk as their pay, not relying on the less lucrative (but also less risky) billable hour.

On the VIE website, I found this video:

Yes, it’s very emotionally manipulative, complete with images of autistic children and teens, dramatic music gradually building to a crescendo over a “call to action” against the “vaccine injury epidemic.” But what, exactly, will be happening on November 14? Well, certainly, you’ll get a whole bunch of the usual suspects in terms of antivaccine speakers: Hillary Simpson (of course), Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. (the “fiercely pro-vaccine” antivax leader), Andrew Wakefield (whose tiny Lancet case series claiming to find an association between MMR vaccination and autism launched a thousand quacks and is arguably responsible for the measles outbreaks going on today), Sherri Tenpenny, Mark Blaxill, Mary Holland, James Lyons-Weiler, Polly Tommey, Sheila Ealey, Jim Meehan, Kari Bundy, and Tia Singleton, with more promised later. My first question was: Where’s Del Bigtree in all this? Publicity hound that he is, as well as being the most famous public face of the antivaccine movement these days outside of Andrew Wakefield and Jenny McCarthy, I couldn’t believe that he’d sit out an antivax confab like this. My guess is that he’ll be one of the speakers to be added.

Then, earlier, there was this video:

Yes, they have contests. They also have—wait for it—the VAXXED bus:

You remember the VAXXED bus, right? VAXXED, of course, is Andrew Wakefield and Del Bigtree’s antivaccine propaganda movie disguised as a documentary, or, as I like to call it, quackumentary. The VAXXED crew bought a bus, painted it up, and now take it all over the country for parents to “tell their stories” of how vaccines made their children autistic or even killed them.

Of course, antivaccine pseudoscience is always all about the grift. So even though the event itself is free, there are (of course!) ancillary events that cost money. For instance, a meeting of something called the Practitioners for Medical Freedom, which will be limited to only physicians, nurses, and PAs and costs $125. Amusingly, this group uses the Caduceus as its logo rather than the Staff of Asclepius, which is the true ancient Greek symbol for medicine. It’s a common error. How can you tell the difference? The Rod of Asclepius has only one snake, while the Caduceus has two snakes. In any event, any physician, nurse, or other provider who attends this event can quite safely be referred to as a quack.

Elsewhere, the VIE event charges $20, and there’s a VIP after event that costs $125 for adults. Then, of course, there’s lots of merch, naturally. Finally, there are sponsor packages of varying levels from $50 to $500, and a link to donate. You can even sponsor a “warrior” who couldn’t otherwise afford to travel to Washington, DC otherwise.

So what can we expect at VIE? Fortunately for us and unfortunately for antivaxers, the history of these “march on Washington,” protests at the CDC, or other “mass protests” is not good, and I don’t expect VIE to be any better. Even Jenny McCarthy’s “Green Our Vaccines” rally attracted at most a couple hundred people, as I recall. More recent protests have been even more anemic, such as a march on the CDC in 2015 or a march on Washington in 2017.

Here’s my guess. My guess is that the VIE antivax confab will be larger than the average antivax confab but in no way large enough to provide a convincing narrative of a mass national movement. The usual suspects will give the same overwrought speeches blaming vaccines for autism, autoimmune diseases, sudden infant death syndrome, and all the things that they attribute to vaccines that vaccines don’t cause. The usual grifters will use the march as a profit center, and maybe the event will get a bit of national press coverage. In the end, though, the result will be the same as the results of previous events like this: No significant effect on law, policy, or public opinion. That’s why I conclude my discussion of VIE with this unintentionally hilarious and ironic meme posted over at the CrazyMothers Instagram account:

Whoever posted this meme is quite correct, just not in the way that she thought when she posted it.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

230 replies on “Vaccine Injury Epidemic (VIE) Event: Antivaxers will march on Washington again”

At least they name themselves Crazy Mothers, and not some misleading name like Vaccine Information Center.

Yes Betty, Irony in the context of the antifa ban. But, of course Trump wouldn’t touch anti-American groups like VIE and his neo-nazi hoodlums because these clowns fit in with his program of disruption and division.

I read the article in The Atlantic to which you had provided a link, and I felt sick and angry at further brazen offences against democracy by Trump. The stage is set for him to declare as terrorists any group that dares to protest against his megalomania, while giving neo-nazi hooligans licence to brutalise these protesters.

He will embrace the VIE lunatics and climate change deniers as his anti-science storm troopers.

Scary stuff .

“Healthy young child goes to doctor, gets pumped with massive shot of many vaccines, doesn’t feel good and changes – AUTISM. Many such cases!
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) March 28, 2014”
Of course that was then.
This is now:
““They have to get the shots. The vaccinations are so important,” Trump told reporters as he left the White House. “This is really going around now. They have to get their shots.””
I suppose it’s a question of what “Fox and Friends” says that morning, or what position most works to his advantage for the next ten minutes.

So what’s with the guy in the lower right corner of the poster? Is that supposed to be some sort of noise maker thingy?

The agreement for VIE sponsorship states:

A. Client is a tax-exempt charitable organization under Section 501(c)(3), Title 26 of the Internal Revenue Code. Its mission is to help parents feel empowered as they make decisions in regard to their children’s health.

B. Sponsor desires to become a corporate sponsor of Client and to provide financial support to and increase public
awareness of Client’s mission, on the basis set out in this Agreement.

They truly are “Crazymothers”, as their mission is so poorly worded that any pro-vax group could purchased booth space at VIE and legitimately argue they are entitled to it, as pro-vaxxers empower parents to make decisions in regard to their children’s health.

Also, who is paying for all this? I see Bob Sears announced on his FB page he’s going to speak there and looking back he was keening about wishing he could speak there the week before (so this sounds staged). Pretty sure Sears doesn’t do these things pro bono since he lists himself on speakers networks. They have a decent number of anti-vax speakers and as you mention it’s certain more are coming as they try to build momentum for this. Plus fixing that bus could not have been cheap.

OH the irony!
People take their children – or go themselves- to visit the museums on the Mall where they can learn about art, science and history and instead, these loons are “educating” parents in the ways of quackery.

As I’ve mentioned before, I’ve tried to estimate how many people are anti-vax by looking at facebook/ twitter numbers ( not the best sources, I know) and other indicators, like conference attendance. Polls, surveys and percentages of vaccinated children overall lead me to believe that the total number is not high. Ten percent of parents would be a very, very generous estimate.

So what do they hope to accomplish? To get news coverage? When I used to regularly visit the Mall, various groups sponsored events and I think that the only time I saw mention of it in the media was the anti-abortion groups.
So far, I haven’t seen this event announced in any of the usual spaces.

Based on uptake rates, I don’t think non-vaxers approach anywhere near 10% of parents, and anti-vaxers – defined as those who have AV as a cause or calling – are likely less than .1%. Or maybe add a couple zeros to the right of the decimal point. IOW, they’re a fringe group with an outsized influence due to have resources of wealth, status, and political influence.

sadmar,

I was being very, very generous.
The only reason I put “10%” was because there was a (Pew IIRC) survey several years ago that said 12% of parents of young children didn’t trust vaccines to be safe.

Exemption rates may be a better way to estimate sentiment although it may miss those who aren’t riled up enough to get an exemption. These rates are low.

Real anti-vaxxers may be a tiny number but they may have many sympathisers – relatives, woo enthusiasts etc

True advocates may be a very small number- their conventions don’t get thousands of attendees. Their books don’t sell well but they do manage to raise money:
people went to see VAXXED!! or bought a copy ( they claim).

Perhaps most of the money involved come from a handful of well-to-do patrons. Most of these websites have a way to donate money ( AoA, TMR) or sell products.
Woo-meisters whose main claims to (in)fame(y) are natural health products often do vaccine shows or articles because they assume people are interested in the topic.
.

@christine:

You make the assumption that those numbers reflect a specific willingness or social engagement, as if the people that did vaccinate do believe and the people that didn’t don’t believe. Those numbers may reflect negligence or simple apathy or the need for genuine medical exemption like being immunocompromised, or any other confounder. Reality is a murky place where a lot more is happening than just “us” vs. “them.” You would get those numbers if 1 person in 20 just doesn’t give a damn one way or another and thinks they have no time to waste on it. Ask a doctor how frequently patients blow off proper consumption of a drug prescription… I would bet the frequency is better than 1 in 20.

“I don’t know how to discern how many of those are overlapping or not but ‘unwilling to fully vax’ is a thing.” How does it compare to the percentage of Americans who think they’ve been abducted by aliens? That Americans have been abducted by aliens is perhaps more plausible than the vaccine-poisoning conspiracy theory pushed by the hardcore anti-vaxxers.

I’d say you can tell when people are taking themselves too seriously when they’re deaf and blind to other interpretations of their output other than what they’ve tried to invest them with. E.g. Hillary Simpson being clueless as to how comically painful her rap-video might be taken. For me, the graphic at the top of the post is in the same category. No care seems to have been taken in thinking about other directions the acrionym typography and graphic design elements might go. So when I first glanced at it, my brain automatically inserted an “L” – “THE VILE EVENT”* [The square period after the “iI” looks like the foot of an “L”] And it’s a perfect fit — “Vaccine Injury” Lie Epidemic.

At first glance my brain read it as:
“They Live Event”
I was expecting something with shape-shifting alienz and Rowdy Roddy Piper imitator making an appearance complete with shotgun and loudly proclaiming something about “chew bubblegum and kick ass” and being “all out of bubblegum”.
Maybe that is going to be a feature of one of the vendor booths/displays/events… Probably Mikey Adams if they can get him to sign on.
.
I’ve thought how funny it would be to get a couple hundred rationalists to show at one of these “events” and just stand there giving the well known American Sign Language sign for “crazy”:

Getting someone to do a “Josh Coleman” and photo bomb their speeches by standing in the background making the same sign would also be hilarious for the havoc it would cause with all the grifters making RubeTube vids to promote themselves.

I can also see a rationalist group in matching tee shirts, all with – “Deaf Due To Measles Wish I’d Been Vaccinated” printed on them and giving a synchronized performance of this while pointing to the dais at the appropriate time:

I saw it too, and I initially came to the comments thinking I might have been the only one, and everyone would say, Oh yeah, now I see it. Sometimes it feels good to go with the consensus.
But I wonder what the crack in the Capital cupola is supposed to convey. Are they going to use the psychic power of their self-righteousness to wreck the place? Are they planning to use the VAXXED bus for a car bomb?

Similarly, Josh Coleman’s web site to show you how you can dress up in creepy “V is for Vendetta” costume and hold a vaccine protest is called “visforvaccineDOTcom”. VIS (vaccine information statements) are put out by the CDC for vaccines and given to parents when we vaccinate their children, so my brain sees “VISforvaccineDOTcom”. Maybe he actually planned it that way, uh yeah, sure….

YES. I got the same idea, exactly, right down to the placement of the quotation marks. So let’s turn that into a meme and spread it. I’ve teamed up with a local design firm to start producing bumper stickers & T-shirts, so stay tuned. As soon as we have the site up I’ll post the URL here. Question is, can we sell those things to people at the rally (all two dozen of them) and hijack their memes with ours? Heh heh.

”Sponsor desires to become a corporate sponsor of Client and to provide financial support to and increase public
awareness of Client’s mission”

How about “Sponsor desires to make money catering to the antivax delusions of Client and to profit off increasing public fear caused by Client’s mission”?

Can’t be too picky when you’re raising cash for the Cause.

This crazymos group on facebook only has 100 likes and I can’t find a web page for them and somehow they’re sponsoring this event without any outside funding?

On thevieevent.com website , for sponsors, it says that for $500, you’ll get the mailing list of 35K.

We can only hope our Reptilian Overlords have commanded their NWO/Aluminutty minions to fire up the weather-wars modification machine to cause a torrential downpour over the mall on Nov. 14.
A nice dose of heavy khemtrailz would be good as well…

“How can you tell the difference? The Rod of Asclepius has only one snake, while the Caduceus has two snakes.”

And the caduceus is the symbol of Hermes, the god of, among other things, mischief. Apropos.

I meant to say they use the double snake. When I met some Navy PAs at a conference and pointed it out, they were not pleased.

I was wondering about whether previous civil rights marches on Washington featured expensive tickets for VIP events with dinner and dancing, like the VI(L)E people are planning.

Maybe I’m forgetting MLK’s famous “I Have Commercial Sponsors And Musical Entertainment” speech.

Besides Del Bigtree not being named as a featured speaker (yet), what’s happened to the other, one-time big names in the world of antivax? How come Suzanne Humphries and Russell Blaylock didn’t make the cut? When’s the last time (if ever) Bill Sardi was a headliner?*

*Bill continues to have an online antivax presence, though these days he’s more often rambling about the injustice of all of America not being on his resveratrol supplement pills. He recently did an online survey on what people would consider sufficiently convincing evidence for them to start taking the pills. His obviously preferred answer was a mouse study showing resveratrol led to the generation of Healthful Molecules. Unfortunately for Bill, his throwaway option (a 20-year study published in JAMA followed by FDA approval) was the biggest vote-getter in the survey, with the mouse study trailing far behind in second place. 🙂

November 14, eh? I’ll be busy then, probably doing actual public health stuff rather than screaming at windmills. The troubling part of this to me is that people who don’t know better will spend money they need to go to a place that is expensive to stay in. All for what? Laws are not going to change. Vaccines are not going away. If anything, there are some vaccines on coming down the pike that will likely also be recommended and mandated. You have to give antivaxxers credit, though. They sure know how to keep beating a dead horse.

“Laws are not going to change. Vaccines are not going away.” I’d love to agree with you, and I hope you are 100% right. But you may have noticed a recent trend to reinterpret American law and to pass insanely bad legislation and policies. Do you doubt that certain politicians would work against vaccines if they perceived a political advantage in so doing? This sort of demo may not be as futile as you think, sadly.

Hi Dangerous Bacon–I give that vaccine (HPV) to virtually every one of my teens. Male and female. It may actually decrease the incidence of head and neck cancer in men and cervical cancer in women. And it appears to have minimal side effects. Some parents choose to decline the vaccine. That is their right.

(I was afraid you might miss this comment on a previous page)

Best,

Jay

Ironic you talk to us like we don’t know sh*t about vaccines when in reality it’s the opposite.

Hi Dangerous Bacon–I give that vaccine (HPV) to virtually every one of my teens. Male and female. It may actually decrease the incidence of head and neck cancer in men and cervical cancer in women. And it appears to have minimal side effects. Some parents choose to decline the vaccine. That is their right.

You say that as though you expect a cookie for it. You’re supposed to be giving the HPV vaccine to as many teens as possible; you’re a paediatrician, remember?

What kind of scumbag puts their child in a video like this?

Hey, I loved you before I realized you were autistic, now I torture you with bleach!

“What kind of scumbag puts their child in a video like this?”

An antivaxxer, obviously, who was promised a perfect child, and is willing to do whatever it takes to have a perfect child again, regardless of the health, safety or needs of the actual child in front of them. That’s why antivaxxers have such a hard time condemning child-killers (see here https://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2016/08/12/polly-tommey-she-wont-judge-autism-parents-who-murder-but-judges-fiona-oleary-for-just-criticism/ for a discussion of Polly Tommey).

You have just jumped into the path of a speeding bus. You just encouraged injury and harm to another person, and hence, you just lost the argument too. Congratulations.
Oh and by the way, try reading science instead of following the herd. This one will piss you off because NOBODY has told you about this…or you prefer being fed B.S. and kept in the dark.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5360569/
Go ahead, mock this science.
Oh, wait, you’ll prefer to mock the messenger…or throw bleach at him.

Jay: ”I give that vaccine (HPV) to virtually every one of my teens. Male and female.”

That’s progress (it took Jay at least a couple of years to follow up on his previous comment here at RI about being willing to give HPV vaccine to young males – but conspicuously leaving out females).

I wonder though if Jay realizes that the optimal age for giving the vaccine is before teenage years.

“Two doses of the HPV vaccine are recommended for all boys and girls at ages 11-12; the vaccine can be given as early as age 9. If you wait until they’re older, they may need three doses instead of two.”

https://www.cdc.gov/hpv/parents/vaccine.html

Maybe Jay thinks only teenage and older patients can handle the vaccine Toxinz.

@ RJ,

Abducted by aliens? What?

In my whole life I have known exactly one person who claimed to have been abducted by aliens. He also believed he was Jesus Christ reincarnated, was a chronic alcoholic, had dropped enough LSD in the 60s to be considered permanently fried & actively prepped for the apocalypse (which would be redundant if you were Jesus but whatever).

I have met countless parents who believe that vaccines are dangerous & many parents who implicate vaccines in the death or disability of their child & zero of them presented like the ‘abductee’ I mentioned above.

I have met countless parents who believe that vaccines are dangerous & many parents who implicate vaccines in the death or disability of their child & zero of them presented like the ‘abductee’ I mentioned above.

“My flimsy and meagre observations are adequate to demonstrate proof of what I want to believe but your scientific observations don’t sway me.” I sense a pattern here.

@ Science Mom

I sense a pattern here

First time for everything but don’t stop there.

RJ’s point was uh, hyperbolic,, but the relative numbers might actually reinforce his claim — i.e. AV is deeper crazy because so many more people believe it, despite the very outre nature of the “intentional mass poisoning” conspiracy theory. But there’s some Texas sharpshooter-ish thing going on by both of you in defining “anti-vaxer”. RJ is talking about the looniest of the authors on Age of Autism, who do project incredibly elaborate government-industry cabals intent on a sinister depopulation program related to the ‘New World Order”. You, OTOH are just tallking about “parents who believe that vaccines are dangerous”, w/o necessarily spinning any elaborate conspiracy. Apples/oranges. You might argue that to the extent his point is valid — that the wiggiest AVs are indeed wiggier than some alien abduction believers – it’s trivial because so very few anti-vaxers are that wiggy.

Even a not-facially loony vaccine-poisoning thesis requires massive stupidity and/or actual conspiracy to get off the ground. Even just ‘vaccines likely cause autism.” Think about the numbers and mis/disinformation that would be required.

Quite seriously, I rate both ‘vaccines likely cause autism’ and ‘I was abducted by aliens’ as being of vanishingly low plausibility, Descartes/Hume territory. The vaccine thesis slightly lower than the other.

True.
we probably hear the worst ( i.e. wiggiest) ones because they are the ones who edit blogs, are loyal commenters** or rap their beliefs publicly.
A few of AoA’s stalwarts have written books or lecture on their position: this takes devotion. And their self-image/ identity may be based on this worldview and their place within the group.

But if the degree of looniness of anti-vax beliefs is normally distributed they are the extreme end.

** have you ever read Hans Litten ( AoA, Autism Investigated)?

No, ‘vaccines likely cause autism’ does not require massive stupidity or an implausible conspiracy theory. Again, you’re referencing the hard-core expressions of the thesis in which vaccines are the ONLY cause of ASD, thus any ASD child is ‘vaccine-injured’. All any parent has to believe to be wary of vaxing is that receiving the MMR increases the odds of ASD by the smallest statistically significant degree. And all they have to believe about the medical establishment is that vaccines turned out to have unforeseen consequences about which the powers that be are denial out of mere arrogance. No CT required.

What’s interesting is why those who may hold more plausible vax-hesitant views as above –– who may be far more numerous — make so little public noise, while the loudest voices are so much farther off toward the fringe than they might seem to need to be.

I’m far more concerned about the overt government conspiracy to abduct aliens and lock them in cages.

There’s plenty of people who believed they were abducted by aliens who are not full-on loo-loo. The majority of Q-anon believers live otherwise normal lives. Same as the vaccine conspiracy theorists. On a purely intellectual level, these are all the same thing, except the latter are actively dangerous. If you fell insulted by being compared to alien abduction claimants or Q-anon believers, you’re in good company. Many of them likely feel insulted being compared to vaccine conspiracy theorists.

If you are genuinely looking for a distinction in forms of incidence of full-on indiviudal loo-loo, you’ll need to look elsewhere. Plenty of otherwise normal people believe things that seem obviously crazy to others. Your ability to find a like-minded community only proves your beliefs are somewhat less crazy than those of David Koresh, say. And that’s a pretty low bar. Also note that most of Koresh’s people lived otherwise normal lives at first.

Never forget the first and main point of which people frequently remind you – your inability to bring fact-based, coherent and plausible arguments. This, more than the alleged craze of fringe views, is the reason I don’t agree with you. You have no evidence; you feel hurt and ignored maybe, but that’s not evidence. You don’t have a point really.

Perhaps you could spend some of this time, not trying to argue with people here, but rather asking other vaccine-poisoning theorists to stop displaying guns on the Internet. That would be a public service and an admirably rare show of good faith. How about it?

“except the latter are actively dangerous”

Right Most of the conspiracies don’t necessarily lead to actions that can endanger others but anti-vax?

If you believe in aliens, you might buy a few books, attend a conference or contribute to the tourism industry in NM. Other ideas are similar although a few may lead to disturbing voting patterns ( see Trump).
Medicine invents disease? You might avoid doctors, usually only hurting yourself ( with the possible exception of your children). I left out the AGW denialism which could lea to actions and Obama hate ( to racism).

Anti-vax has direct consequences if enough people follow through on their beliefs: there are more instances of VPDs- people have died or have serious illness. Another consequence may be taking their children out of schools and home-schooling or using odd private schools, leading to a worse education for children.

I was wrong on the Internet, sorry. Yes, the Q-anon believers also are actively dangerous, and there seems to be signs of overlap between the Q-anon folks and anti-vaxxers. Anyway, while vaccine-poisoning theses have non-zero initial plausibility, there never has been any positive reason to bellieve them, and opposing evidence is conclusive.

The only ‘evidence’ for vaccine poisoning is poorly-known, dubious anecdotes. I do not believe scientific and sociological theses on the basis of anecdotes, because I don’t think I’m special. However strongly felt, anecdotal evidence cannot be examined by publicly accessible standards. Any crazy thesis you got? I got an anecdote for that.

had dropped enough LSD in the 60s to be considered permanently fried

I don’t think “permanently fried” is a medical diagnosis, and I also don’t think you know anything about LSD, which, at a threshold active dose of 25 micrograms, is remarkably nontoxic.

@ Narad,

I also don’t think you know anything about LSD

Are you baiting me? I like you, Narad. Sorry, can’t help it.

To put this in perspective ( infer whatever you wish)…

Phillip Bump, in The Atlantic, April, 2013, quotes Public Policy Polling- US: people believe that..

JFK was murdered by conspiracy 51%
Bush misled on WMD 44%
Aliens exist 29%
NWO exists 28%
UFOs landed at Roswell 28%
Hussein caused 9/11 28%
UFOs are real 21%
Vaccines cause autism 20%
Government uses TVs for mind control 15%
Medicine invents diseases 15%
…………. quite a few more. 15-5%……
Lizard people rule us all 4%

Similar article in The Guardian, slightly different numbers, 2016 Other articles about how this relates to political affiliation

My point being that because an idea is unsupported by evidence doesn’t mean that only a few people believe in it.

The alt med salesmen I survey rely upon their customers’ belief in conspiracies and inadequate critical thinking as well as a lack of science education in order to sell their ideas and products. They make a lot more money than Orac, SBM writers/ doctors, Dangerous Bacon, Dr Chris or any of RI’s minions including me.

Actually, psychologists DO study factors that make people vulnerable to CTs as well as how advertising, propaganda and learning work. This is nothing new.

“Bush misled on WMD”

Do they mean Bush was misled, or that Bush misled people. Because the latter is definitely NOT a CT.

ALSO general articles;
Jeffrey Kluger, TIME, Nov 14, 2017 – ( why people believe)
Live Science.com, 10-13-16 ( numbers)
fivethirtyeight.com, 10-23-17 ( numbers)
many more, google “percent people believe in conspiracies”

“I have met countless parents who believe that vaccines are dangerous & many parents who implicate vaccines in the death or disability of their child & zero of them presented like the ‘abductee’ I mentioned”

The average ”alien abductee” sounds more reasonable than many antivaxers.

”Numerous vaccines have been shown to actually cause the very illness it’s supposed to prevent. Others for instance, the measles vaccine actually kills more people than does measles itself. Indisputable evidence is mounting to prove that tainted vaccines with mercury and other known impurities are driving rates of brain damage and autism through the roof. Due to the evil powers of Big Pharma, not unlike Monsanto, many people, especially children are allowed to continue at grave risk of permanent harm and even death from toxic vaccines. Moreover, the proliferation of draconian NWO laws are at work throughout the Western world that are beginning to mandate that these highly damaging vaccines be given to all adults even against their will.”

https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-globalists-new-world-order-soft-and-hard-kill-methods-an-unknown-and-uncertain-future/5451356

There are a lot of people like this running around loose.

The direct question is: what percentage of vex-resistors are indeed “people like this”, i.e. NWO depopulation crazies. My guess, certainly not most, and probably only single digits. Of course, you could still call that “many antivaxers’ in raw numbers but that’s a virtually empty adjective in that sense.

We might say the issue implied by Christine claim would be “how reasonable are the vaccine fears held by typical or average vex-resistors”. A vaccine CT need not make any outre claims like ‘vaccines cause more death than they prevent’. One need only believe that vaccines cause some recipients significant harm, and that the pharmas are covering that up to protect themselves. That’s not at all implausible because it parallels well-known cases of corporate malfeasance generally, and misdeeds by some of the pharmas specifically. For example, the reality of the malfeasance now being revealed in opiate marketing and distribution is arguably worse than what you’d need to believe to be concerned about vaccination. Ditto for what’s going on with insulin. Of course, you and I know these scenarios don’t apply to vaccines, but you actually have to get fairly deep into the weeds to explain why that’s so. It doesn’t fit into a pithy one-liner, a sound-bite-sized couple of sentences, a Tweet, or even a two-minute ‘debate’ response. It’s basically a full Orac-post length to get it right, and that’s a handicap in contemporary culture.

However, I wonder if the more interesting questions might be the inter-relationships between the more plausible basic CTs, and the more tin-foil hat NWO stuff. I would guess, for example, that getting to the tin-foil might be a dynamic process that starts with the more plausible suspicions as a sort of ‘gateway drug’. Maybe the vax-resistant parents with essentially generic wariness of Big-Whatever are ‘low-information’ on the specifics of VPD dangers, vaccine science, vaccine economics, etc. Or we might say they’re noobs to the details of the arguments. Then, the more time they spend questioning, ‘researching’ paying attention, the more they’ll encounter pro-vax positions, including critiques of AV celebs like Wakefield as scammers and what-not. At which point there’s enough conflict that they have to either let go of some of fear or go deeper down the rabbit-hole to internally justify maintaining their positions. [Just a hypotheses, this..]

re the relationship between belief in “basic CTs”
and the “tin foil hat” ones

We may actually have an observational laboratory of sorts for that – NN and PRN
their basic premises are anti-Big Pharma/ Vax killz but then, they add various political, economic and health BS
such as the Deep State, Lyme Disease is a government experiment gone wrong, de-population,cancer is fungus, Clinton Crime Family etc

It’s almost as if they are trying to see how far they can go.

Perhaps saner followers hear these gems and look at the basics more carefully . Or not.
” He’s wrong about Trump but he sure knows his dietary biochemistry!”

By the way, here’s what Jay Gordon had to say about HPV vaccination in an appearance on the Ricki Lake show.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BzZfMXXAvle/

It’s be nice if he made a similar public appearance (on Dr. Oz’s show for example) to tout his alleged change of heart. Or even did a blog post on it (it looks like every single vaccine-related post on his website is antivax).

Don’t hold your breath though.

@ everybody above,

Its obvious that this conspiracy theorist label is very important to you here. It absolves you of taking anybody seriously & I’m thinking that it’s not an accident that those who have engaged me on matters of science, have been those least likely to have blathered on about conspiracy.

Your entire platform depends on parents of children dead or disabled by vaccines being crazy. Nice touch from those who advocate for science.

Not so.
Taking your last comment first, in far too many cases people believe vaccines cause harms that they couldn’t. Over and over again, claims of deaths and injuries are made, only for proper investigation to reveal that the vaccine could not possibly have caused the issue.
Now on to your conspiracy theory comments. The fact of the matter is, “vaccines cause autism” is now so disproved that to believe in it demands belief in a conspiracy.
Andrew Wakefield was hired by solicitors looking to build a case that the MMR vaccine causes autism. His “case study” loaded the deck as heavily as it could and still found nothing so he cooked the data. In other words, the link is fraudulent.
Multiple large, well-designed and run studies from several different countries have turned up no correlation.
Michelle Cedillo’s claim was one of the test cases in the Omnibus Autism Proceedings (OAP) in Vaccine Court. As part of their evidence, her parents submitted video footage of her at 15 months old, before her MMR vaccination. An expert in autism showed that even then, Michelle was engaging in autistic behaviours.
There were six test cases in the OAP. Michelle Cedillo, Yates Hazelhurst and Colten Snyder were the first three, ruled on in January 2009. As you know, the Special Masters ruled against all three. George Hastings, ruling on Michelle’s claim, declared “This case is not a close case”. Patricia Campbell-Smith, ruling on Colten’s claim, pronounced “In order to conclude Colten’s autism was caused by his vaccination, an impartial observer would have to emulate Lewis Carrol’s White Queen and believe six impossible things before breakfast.” All three cases were appealed with the original verdicts upheld. The Cedillos and Hazlehursts appealed further, with the exact same result.
In 2010, the test cases of Colin Dwyer, Jordan King and William Mead were ruled on, again with compensation refused.
The case for MMR causing autism is now so weak that one would have to believe in a grand conspiracy to believe in it.

No, Christine, the pro-vax “platform” exists because (1) there are viral and bacterial infections that maim and kill, and (2) vaccines–one of the crowning triumphs of 20th century science/medicine–greatly prevent people from contracting many of these infections, saving millions of lives and even leading to the eradication of smallpox.

The anti-vax platform relies on fraud, lies, deceit, hate, greed and gullibility coupled with a very troubling indifference to the harm it causes when those behind it wrongly scares parents out of vaccinating and destroys public health, which is why as a pediatrician I oppose anti-vacccinationists–because they have harmed and hurt children.

You seem to have confused parents of children who were actually injured by vaccines (we all admit this is a risk, but so is getting out of bed in the morning. And not getting out of bed in the morning. Life involves risk), and people who CLAIM their children were injured by vaccines.

”Its obvious that this conspiracy theorist label is very important to you here. It absolves you of taking anybody seriously & I’m thinking that it’s not an accident”

Hilarity ensues.

@ DB,

It’s okay … I can be a conspiracy theorist if it helps you feel better. Don’t worry, everything’s fine …

”Its obvious that this conspiracy theorist label is very important to you here.” No, it isn’t. It’s not true, therefore not obvious, if you read what people say with any nuance.

Just present some evidence. It matters not a jot what your personal qualities are – I don’t care. It doesn’t matter if there is a thesis of conspiracy or not – just present some evidence. I care about phenomena and evidence for phenomena, not labels. Present some evidence – give me good reason to change my mind. Others have done it, though not typically for this sort of issue.

I will take you seriously – if you present some evidence. And let’s say you don’t posit any conspiracy – why are the vast majority of the medical journals so incredibly unobservant? Why is the profession so blind to what is obvious to you? You’d have to explain that, to make a case [and if you try to deflect or downplay this requirement, you are refusing to present evidence, not engaging the issue honestly]. You have not done this, so far. You’d have to develop some plausible, fact-based reasons for medicine’s incredible failure. It would not have to be a conspiracy, but it can’t be unspecified ‘biases’ held for unspecified reasons, or for reasons that are implausible.

Don’t complain about not being taken seriously – don’t whine about what you think peoples’ regard may or not be for you. Present evidence: publicly accessible, verifiable evidence that has passed the scrutiny of people who aren’t partisan.

I care about phenomena and evidence for phenomena, not labels.

What, noumena get the short shrift?

In other anti-vax news…

MSNBC’s Ari Melber presses Williamson on her anti-vax. She flails and wants “more science” but not done by Pharma- etc

Christine K, since you believe so strongly in the power of anecdotes, try this one.
I have an autism spectrum condition (I don’t consider it a disorder), Asperger’s syndrome to be exact. I was first self-diagnosed and then confirmed by a recognized expert at the age of fifty, which makes my new diagnosis part of the “epidemic”. But to continue, the only vaccine I received before the age of 3-4 was for smallpox, which virtually all infants received. Before the Salk vaccine was available, I had already had poliomyelitis, unrecognized at the time, so I got the vaccine anyway, and later the Sabin as well.
Looking in retrospect, my mother realized that I had shown signs of autism before I could have received any vaccine other than for smallpox.
I will assert that polio caused my autism, and that my evidence is as good as anyone else’s.Of course people were beginning to have TVs at home in those years. Maybe Romper Room or Captain Kangaroo did it. I can assert anything I want to about it and if no scientific study has either proven or failed to prove the link then my weak evidence is valid, and to my mind, trumps anything you can claim.

Did you listen to the Rolling Stones? That would explain everything. We know that the Stones cause autism, just as Ozzy Osborne causes satanism.

To be super, super fair, if there were a really massive confluence of anecdotes along with evidence of their independence (that’s the biggie), vaccine injury causing autism would be more likely than listening to the Rolling Stones. We’d still need to explain the institutional failure of mainstream medicine though – quite challenging.

@ rj,

What? I’m autistic because I’ve listened to the Rolling Stones? And I’m the weird one here. Okay.

What? I’m autistic because I’ve listened to the Rolling Stones? And I’m the weird one here. Okay.

You failed to note RJ’s sarcasm i.e., the Rolling Stones have as much of a correlation to autism as vaccines do.

RJ, I was already firmly ensconced on that particular rainbow before Mick and Keef were even playing with Long John Baldry (the true King of Rock and Roll, all hail!).
Maybe it was Elvis. Or Jerry Lee Lewis. Yeah, that’s it, somehow his penchant for young girls to (legally, in those days) somehow rearranged the structure of my brain.

^ Rats, that one doesn’t go all the way to the part where the drum kit drives off the set. Damn naps.

@ Old Rockin Dave,

Just exactly how much do you ‘rock’, because if you also ‘rolled’; rj below has all the answers.

I find your anecdote very interesting & I am glad it’s not caused you any disorder. I should be so lucky; I am chaos personified. My son; he is so awesome but I am scared for him & many times of him.

Actually, both (filthy Nazi scum) Hans Asperger’s “autismus” has caused me many a problem, some worse than the effects of poliomyelitis, and just as long-lasting. I just refuse to have a major part of who I am defined as a disorder, and I prefer the more neutral “condition”. “Disorder’ reinforces the false notion that autism is something I have, rather than autistic is something I am. IOW, I am autistic, I do not “have autism”. I had poliomyelitis, I am not poliomyelitistic.*
That my life never descended entirely into chaos and despair is largely attributable in various ways to the two women that I have been married to, especially my super-awesome second and forever wife.
Also, I think RJ was addressing me regarding The Greatest Rock and Roll Band in the Known Universe, and Probably Beyond. I think I just answered his question in the preceding sentence.

*Anyone who thinks this is just semantics is invited to meet me to discuss it. I can’t promise we’ll have sex, but I brew a damn good cup of coffee and I know the best place in town for pancakes.

Christine, any belief in vaccines causing autism is a belief in a conspiracy theory. The only way it could be true is if multiple governments, hundreds of thousands of health organisations and scientists and epidemiologists and Pharma employees are not only lying but also falsifying data across international boundaries. Without any one of them ever exposing the secret. Ever. Watching their own families suffer. Remember, it’s not only scientists involved. It’s lab technicians, doctors, nurses, accountants, admin staff etc etc etc.

How much money would it take you to ignore something like that?

Now, if there was a vaccine/autism connection it would have to be so subtle that epidemiologists cannot determine it’s existence. In which case do you really think some warrior mom is likely to have discovered something?

@ Number Wang,

The only way it could be true is if multiple governments, hundreds of thousands of health organisations and scientists and epidemiologists and Pharma employees are not only lying but also falsifying data across international boundaries

No, no. That is not true. The only thing needed is for YOU to believe that vaccines are safe.

@ EVERYBODY,

Okay here’s what’s up.

I believe vaccines are causing serious neurological problems by an immune mediated process that occurs due to genetics. There is strong evidence regarding non-specific effects of vaccines.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5868131/

(I’m keeping it to a two link maximum to avoid mod)

There is strong evidence that autism, SIDS, schizophrenia & Alzheimer’s are immune mediated but multifactorial genetic conditions.

https://www.nature.com/articles/tp201677

I believe that sv40 was the genesis for a culture of deceit at the CDC that has permeated everything for decades. I don’t think sv40 causes cancer in humans; I know it. I’m afraid to explain because somebody’s life depends on keeping the CDC happy. Thats it. I’m not going any further on that.

I call nobody here shills, Hitler & I don’t disparage big pharma. I could actually care less about pharma. I wish somebody here liked me. I do admire many here.

I know there is no research linking those immune-mediated conditions with immune mediating vaccines. That’s weird but whatever … okay.

Okay here’s what’s up.

Guinea-Bissau as the lede, and then the usual shit. You have finally and fully made yourself not worth the effort.

@ Narad,

No; I led with non-specific effects of vaccines. Is that why everybody here says to state my claim with citations? So you can play that game with me? That is good research from an award winning project. I’m really confused.

Is that why everybody here says to state my claim with citations? So you can play that game with me?

At this point, you can play whatever games you wish with yourself. I’m not wasting any more time on this tomfoolery.

Much more convincing than a single study would be something like a meta-analysis or systematic review. By themselves single studies don’t mean that much, but meta-analyses and systematic reviews on the other hand will attempt to synthesise the results of many different, relevant studies giving a clearer picture of the current state of the science. You know, like the one Orac mentions here:

https://respectfulinsolence.com/2014/07/02/yet-more-evidence-that-vaccines-are-safe-and-do-not-cause-autism/

Direct link here if you don’t trust Orac’s own commentary about the systematic review:

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/134/2/325.abstract

“We found evidence that some vaccines are associated with serious AEs; however, these events are extremely rare and must be weighed against the protective benefits that vaccines provide.”

(emphasis added).

@ Anonymous Coward,

You know, you are right. Everybody knows vaccines can cause serious injury. I picked the wrong ‘hill to die on’. My position is actually that they are occurring at a much higher rate than what the epidemiology is picking up on.

That really shifts my burden of proof quite a bit. Immune mediating agents causing an adverse immune mediated condition is a waste of time for me to prove (but it’s also strange that anyone would argue against that).

I’m afraid I may not be good enough to nitpick my way through controls, confounders, risk ratios, etc … I have to prove a bias that is permeating the epidemiology & that’s my biggest weakness; math.

I can’t just come here & tell you you personally are biased (well, you are) against anything ‘antivaccine’ because that actually does sound like a conspiracy theory. I have to show bias. Geez I could be doomed!.

What basis do you have to suggest that multiple studies from multiple sources are all so flawed that they are somehow missing these issues?

@Christine K: Okay, so by your own admission you have no evidence and no relevant expertise. Rather than looking at the evidence that does exist and listening to those who do have the relevant expertise, you instead choose to believe what you want to believe, and assert it without a shred of evidence to support it. What is asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence as they say.

And yeah, if you want to call me biased, then what I will say to that is what I care about is credible scientific evidence. The anti-vaccination position has none, while the pro-vaccination position has mountains of it. If credible evidence does someday come up showing that vaccination actually does cause harm that outweighs the benefits then I will gladly change my tune, but I rate the odds of that ever happening as rather remote, given that vaccines have been studied extensively and nearly every single time the results are that the benefits far outweigh the risks. Or are you going to assert that every single one of those studies from multiple sources around the world that told us that are flawed, then well, there’s that word I love so much again: evidence. Please get some, or else you are just wasting everyone’s time and endangering the lives of people by sowing more seeds of doubt in a field that ought to be uncontroversial.

My position is actually that they are occurring at a much higher rate than what the epidemiology is picking up on.

I got a few questions about that:

1-: Why?

2-: do you ever had any training in epidemiology? If so, how much training and education?

Alain

Immune mediating agents causing an adverse immune mediated condition is a waste of time for me to prove (but it’s also strange that anyone would argue against that).

What’s needed here? The Jell-O is to hand, so I guess it’s a tree and a hammer.

” I know that there is no research linking those immune-mediated conditions with immune mediating vaccines”

Why do you think that that is?
Researchers who study immunology or ASDs or genetics need to find meaningful questions to research in order to acquire degrees, grants, tenure, career goals or fame.
If this is indeed a fruitful area of investigation why are young scholars and accomplished scientists NOT beating down the doors to study these questions?
These researchers know their field well enough to know “were to look”- where research is headed in general. Students looking for topics for a dissertation know which areas are hot or not, just like hipsters know which bar or café is au courant. They also know what questions might “work”- i.e. be successful.

If you say, ” The CDC prohibits them” or ” Pharma controls everything” , know that the US does not rule the entire world and that Pharma is not one consolidated mass/police state but competing companies, staffed by scientists who want to make names for themselves, located around the world. Alt med portrays university scientists as being in lock-step with whatever the powers-that-be ordain, but, believe it or not, there are controversies, rivalries and even factions amongst scientists.

Alt med represents its view of science from the position of outsiders: the most well-known advocates against SBM and general science have no experience or education within the fields that they critique.( see Natural News, PRN.fm, GreenMedInfo).. Even the most famous anti-vax scientists are not talking about their own areas of expertise : Wakefield was a gastroenterologist- he didn’t study brains- and the group in BC, Canada actually researched eyes These are the people quoted most frequently and were both paid by special interests. Orac has covered their sponsors. ( see Wakefield attorney, Barr, and the Dwoskin Foundation)

@ Denice,

If this is indeed a fruitful area of investigation why are young scholars and accomplished scientists NOT beating down the doors to study these questions

Oh but they are; now. The project donating the post-mortem brain tissue just started distributing the specimens in 2014. The US is too cuckold to come in first with anything revolutionary; I’m betting on Japan, China or Russia. But it’s coming.

Wakefield was a gastroenterologist- he didn’t study brains

We know better now. Gastroenterologists should indeed study brains & Neurologists should study Gastroenterology.

Five years is a long time in research.

” But it’s coming”
” I’m betting on Japan, China or Russia”
” Gastroenterologists should indeed study brains & Neurologists should study Gastroenterology”.

If what you say is in any way reasonable, there would be whole issues of periodicals focusing upon the research
So, where is it?.

@ Jane Ostentatious:

Thanks.
A while ago, I learned how to respond to respond to material like this when parents of people with SMI thought that meds weren’t needed when vitamins, special foods would alleviate symptoms:
if it worked, we’d know about it. Why it can’t be so.

People think up “theories” of ASD or cancer causation etc exactly reflecting their level of knowledge of the condition they survey. So a Mike Adams-level of understanding is a few sd below an Oracian** one.

** and I’ve seen his diagramming!

“I wish somebody here liked me. I do admire many here.”
It’s very possible if we met I would like you. But I would still reject your opinions on this particular topic.

My nephew has PDD (It is a disorder in his case.) and it was one of the things that led to my diagnosis. His status became more obvious after a febrile seizure in the course of otitis media,leading to his diagnosis, but as in so many others, the signs were there much earlier for anyone who knew what they were looking at (which none of the family then did), I am completely confident that vaccination was not connected.

FYI, I do indeed roll, but who I roll, how, when, and how often are personal matters.

@ RJ.

Just present some evidence

I believe autism is immune mediated.

https://jlb.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1189/jlb.1205707

And while I do believe that vaccines are immune mediating & capable of causing autism; I don’t see this as endgame for vaccines but rather; that acknowledging the issue would lead to safer & better vaccines. I am interested in the non-specific effects of vaccines & ‘vaccinomics’.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2018.00062/full

I had a look at the first article. It was published in 2006, over a decade ago. A lot of “could”, “might” and “may”. In addition, the Geiers are cited along with Wakefield (Cite 30). Also…

Many of these papers compare young ASD patients with adult controls or have a wide range of ages in both controls and case groups. Furthermore, drug treatments prescribed for the symptoms of ASD, including naltrexone, clozapine, risperidone, and tricyclic antidepressants, are all capable of affecting the immune response and cytokine production. Therefore, it cannot be discounted that medication status is a confounding factor in a number of these studies.

From the Conclusion:

Within the literature describing immune‐based studies in ASD, there are a number of discrepancies and unreplicated reports. Numerous studies report apparently conflicting results, and thus far, no consensus about the described immune findings has been reached.

To me, the authors are saying that there may be something here, but the evidence so far is by no means definitive.

the Geiers are cited along with Wakefield

And the comprehensively-ridiculed Hornig-Lipkin paper. The author was going for broadness of coverage rather than discrimination.

@ Julian,

I know; the citations. It’s hard to find articles regarding immune mediation, published after 2000, that do not cite your ‘usual suspects’.

I also knew I had to avoid some Vino guy & a woman with a long name that starts with an ‘O’. Luckily, there seems to be an uptick of articles regarding those post-mortem brain tissue donations so the authors & their citations are starting to become much more diversified.

I think next gen researchers are going to become impatient with tiptoeing on eggshells in order to avoid being labeled ‘antivaccine’ but I’m impatient too. I wish it would happen already but it won’t happen in the US first.

Unfortunately, your belief is not supported by the scientific evidence. You link to a paper about how the immune response seems to play a role in autism. That may be true, but it’s a very long way to go from there to saying vaccines can cause autism, most especially when there is a vast mountain of scientific evidence that shows the contrary. Your seeming immunity (no pun intended) to any contrary evidence that might contradict your beliefs is what makes people around here frustrated with trying to engage with you. A real scientist will look at contrary data, consider it honestly, and change their minds accordingly when it clearly shows that they were wrong. What kind of evidence do you need to see that will make you change your belief that vaccines can cause autism?

@ Anonymous Coward,

What kind of evidence do you need to see that will make you change your belief that vaccines can cause autism

Cytokine profiles done just prior to immunization, within an hour after immunization, q.o.d. x 6 then q week x 4 then q month x 1 year.

Cross referenced at age 8 years old against support services required (the protocol for assessment for autism rates).

If the profiles remained consistent between those requiring support & those who did not?

I would have no choice but to change my mind.

Cytokine profiles done just prior to immunization, within an hour after immunization, q.o.d. x 6 then q week x 4 then q month x 1 year.

Please do expand upon this. What do you expect this would yield for example?

@Christine K: Great, so now write up your grant proposal and submit it to the NIH or some other funding body that will give you the money to allow you to do such a study. We eagerly await the peer-reviewed paper with your findings. Maybe you might even come up with results that will change all our minds!

I believe autism is immune mediated.

Then where was this “autism epidemic” when wild-type VPDs circulated pre-vaccine or associated with disease outbreaks? Same with SIDS, etc.?

@ Science Mom,

where was this “autism epidemic” when wild-type VPDs circulated pre-vaccine or associated with disease outbreaks? Same with SIDS

Well, according to most here; hiding in institutions.

Well, according to most here; hiding in institutions.

OK, another anti-vaxxer, oops vaccinesdidit who can’t understand epidemiology. Autistics were locked up in institutions, yes. However that number is relatively consistent with the ASD prevalence seen today. There is also diagnostic substitution. You think that wild-type diseases cause autism (you’d be right as far as in utero rubella and influenza) at the same rate as the varying vaccine schedule throughout the decades? Please reconcile those numbers for me then.

@ Science Mom:

We should try to find the actual numbers that show diagnostic substitution- I know I’ve seen them: as the dx of “MR”/ ID go down, the dx of ASDs go up: it makes a nice graphic.

Another source is James Laidler: a doctor who was fooled by anti-vax ideas. He might show numbers.

AS I’ve mentioned previously, even Freud himself, 100 years ago, said that certain children had a condition- unnamed- that meant that they couldn’t “attach” to parents or learn or speak.

Somebody should certainly noticed that measles results lots of people locked into institutions.

There’s plenty of competition for best soundtrack for the antivax movement, but the following (which just came up on my iPod shuffle) would be an excellent choice:

Beats The Refusers every time.

@ Science Mom,

So it never occurred to you that the immune system could react differently to an atypical exposure than a typical one?

If by atypical you mean vaccines and by typical you mean infection, we know they’re different. We know vaccines cause fewer complications than infection.

@ Terrie,

We know vaccines are causing fewer ‘VPD complications’ than the VPDs. That does not mean the vaccines are not causing ‘V complications’. The spectrum of potential for immune-mediated complications must be broader than what we see just resulting from natural pathogen exposure.

Man mitigated the immune-mediating potential of VPDs with vaccines. To believe that there would be no negative man-mediated consequences is again; somewhat naive.

Man mitigated the immune-mediating potential of VPDs with vaccines. To believe that there would be no negative man-mediated consequences is again; somewhat naive.

Terrie answered the other question for me so I’ll just respond to this. You have your mind made up based upon nothing really. You don’t know about immunology to make this rather leaping assertion. Of course there are side effects from vaccines, we know this and we have a very good idea what those are and the prevalence of them, because there are scientists studying this and amazingly are not ostracised as you claim.

@ Science Mom,

as the dx of “MR”/ ID go down, the dx of ASDs go up

Yeah, because MR/ID include autistic behaviors & autism has a novelty appeal. MR/ID misdiagnosed as autistic-‘like’ in no way can account for what you are referring to. Had the percentage of special education services remained consistent while ‘MR/ID down while ASD up’; you might have a little more chance at being right than a snowball’s chance in hell but SPED census in public schools has been increasing at the rate of around 1% per year since the late 1970s , so; nah.

Yeah, because MR/ID include autistic behaviors & autism has a novelty appeal. MR/ID misdiagnosed as autistic-‘like’ in no way can account for what you are referring to. Had the percentage of special education services remained consistent while ‘MR/ID down while ASD up’; you might have a little more chance at being right than a snowball’s chance in hell but SPED census in public schools has been increasing at the rate of around 1% per year since the late 1970s , so; nah.

You are skipping numerous steps. Diagnostic substitution is not the only factor for increased ASD prevalence; there are also changes (see DSM V) and expansion that capture those on the “milder” end of the spectrum but still require special education services. Go swivel with your “novelty appeal” bullshit as though ASD is some boutique disorder.

@ Terrie,

What basis do you have to suggest that multiple studies from multiple sources are all so flawed that they are somehow missing these issues

Because it happened with Big Tobacco’s ‘lawyers epidemiology’ & it’s happened with vaccines before, in 3rd world countries regarding ‘healthy-user bias’.

It’s sort of naive to think it can’t happen again.

So you’re saying that mulitple sources, across multiple countries, are all in the pocket of vaccine manufacturers? Please explain again how you’re not pushing a conspiracy theory.

@ Terrie,

Please see my reply above.

Nobody is in the pocket of ‘vaccine manufacturers’.

Those multiple sources from multiple countries are all using the same accepted protocols (hazards, ratios, cohorts, etc …) in research.

If you keep doing what you’ve been doing; your gonna keep getting what you’ve been getting

Meaning all sources from all places will continue to validate each other.This has been happening for decades & now; multiple sources from multiple countries continue to self-validate. That’s why I told Number Wang that the only thing needed was for him/her to believe vaccines are safe.

If you believe that; there is no reason to change it up a bit & go outside the box. Re-evaluate. Vaccines as unsafe is a very low maintenance conspiracy; it would not require many co-conspirators at all.

You’re not being consistent. The point of tobacco’s studies is that they purposely distorted the results for profit. Now you’re saying that there is not purposeful distortion, it’s just that no one but those who agree with you actually know how to science. Pick a stance and stick to it, instead of shuffle around your goal posts.

Because it happened with Big Tobacco’s ‘lawyers epidemiology’ & it’s happened with vaccines before, in 3rd world countries regarding ‘healthy-user bias’.

The tobacco industries’ shonky studies could not be sustained now could they again leading to a conspiracy of global proportions re: vaccines. You are obviously getting your information from Dan Steinberg aka Vaccine Papers who is not a scientist nor anything remotely resembling one.

I mean, is there a precident for distortion, intentional or not, in studies? Obviously, yes. Orac analyzes these distortions multiple times a week. Do the studies showing vacceins are safe map to any of those siutations? No, they don’t. You might as well claim that the Tuskeegee experiment is a precedent for horse meat being solid as beef.

@ Science Mom,

You don’t know about immunology to make this rather leaping assertion

It’s not an assertion; it’s a concept. Maybe even just a musing. I am not an epidemiologist.

Did all discoveries in epidemiology necessarily evolve from an epidemiologist’s assertion? I mean, Newton’s Apple & all that.

Did all discoveries in epidemiology necessarily evolve from an epidemiologist’s assertion? I mean, Newton’s Apple & all that.

Oh good grief. And what scientific discipline would you use to test your “concept” or “musing”?

@ Science Mom,

Please do expand upon this. What do you expect this would yield for example

If vaccines were not causing the atypical cytokine profiles found in autism, I would expect to see one of two things:

That the pre-immunization cytokine profiles in children who were later diagnosed with autism were already atypical before vaccines. Or,

That there was not a statistically significant distortion of cytokine profiles in the post-immunization profiles of autistic children as compared to the non-autistic children.

If vaccines were not causing the atypical cytokine profiles found in autism, I would expect to see one of two things:

You lot need a new playbook because you are trying to reverse-engineer your “concept”. There are numerous problems with your proposal such as the heterogeneity of ASDs so what would your sample power have to be? Then, you are making the dangerous assumption that immune disregulation/disfunction not only precedes autism but does so post-natally. There is more and more evidence that these pathways occur pre-natally and not exactly known which comes first or if concurrently. This area of research is more likely to yield results rather than your half-arsed shotgun approach.

” occur prenatally”
Thank you.
( Not that she’ll learn. I think I’ll give up and leave it to you and others)

Given that she doesn’t believe large scale statistical analysis showing vacceins are safe, do we really believe she’s accept any study showing there is “not a statistically significant distortion of cytokine profiles in the post-immunization profiles of autistic children as compared to the non-autistic children?”

@ Science Mom,

It is actually a good proposal. Run them at the same time with the PKUs. All newborns, not some selection. For 5 years. Say 2020-2026. Assess them from 2028-2032 for development of autism.

You didn’t even nail the biggest flaw; prenatal vaccinations. Someone like me who was Rh- & needed rhogam would have to be ineligible (their baby, that is).

Why so defensive?

@ Science Mom,

There is more and more evidence that these pathways occur pre-natally and not exactly known which comes first or if concurrently

Then why not confirm that it at least existed before the vaccines?

Or not.

And if it happened after the vaccines; it still wouldn’t prove anything. You’d next have to look for a consistent predisposing factor … such as genes.

Anonymous Coward is the one who asked anyway. I can’t expect you to understand the answer for a question you didn’t think up.

It is actually a good proposal. Run them at the same time with the PKUs. All newborns, not some selection. For 5 years. Say 2020-2026. Assess them from 2028-2032 for development of autism.

PKUs are a heel stick, CBCs/chem panels are a venous puncture. These are newborn infants, not lab animals; another thing you didn’t think through.

You didn’t even nail the biggest flaw; prenatal vaccinations. Someone like me who was Rh- & needed rhogam would have to be ineligible (their baby, that is).

Seriously? Why not grandparent vaccinations while we’re at it. Rhogam is not a vaccine; you have not set yourself apart from any other anti-vaxxer that has appeared here.

Why so defensive?

You don’t read your respondents that well do you.

@ DB,

if you keep doing good science you keep finding that vaccines do not cause autism

Right. Vaccine politics define science now. Not the other way around.

@ Terrie,

The point of tobacco’s studies is that they purposely distorted the results for profit

LOL. The point of Big Tobacco’s distortion was what they stood to lose versus what they stood to gain.

Same with vaccines. Not the profit. The trust that policy & program depends on.

There were epidemiological studies showing that tobacco smoking cause cancer. There are epidemiological studies showing that vaccines prevent autism. Why do you accept one and reject another ?

@ Terrie,

do we really believe she’s accept any study showing there is “not a statistically significant distortion of cytokine profiles

With pre-immunization baselines included? You can bet your ass I would.

What if I could show you a study (or several) showing normal profiles as a baseline prior to immunization that turned into abnormal profiles after vaccination? Of course, none of those studies assessed for autism eight years later … That would be antivaccine.

Christine Kincaid: I have met countless parents who believe that vaccines are dangerous & many parents who implicate vaccines in the death or disability of their child.

Like personally? or online? Because I don’t think you’ve spoken to an adult you’re not married or related to this decade.

@ Science Mom,

PKUs are a heel stick, CBCs/chem panels are a venous puncture. These are newborn infants, not lab animals; another thing you didn’t think through

Cytokine profiles can be obtained with saliva samples.

You don’t read your respondents that well do you

Thank You, Captain Obvious. I’m asd. And neurotypical people can have problems with text as well.

Cytokine profiles can be obtained with saliva samples.

Not only is this an inferior method to blood draws, it’s not standardised in infants.

<

blockquote>Thank You, Captain Obvious. I’m asd. And neurotypical people can have problems with text as well.
Then ask instead of assuming and “asking”, “why so defensive” was a rhetorical question so don’t pull semantics on me.

@ Science Mom,

it’s not standardised in infants

Would that take long?

why so defensive” was a rhetorical question so don’t pull semantics on me

So was: “You don’t read your respondents that well, do you”.

Would that take long?

I don’t know but the bigger question is, is it even effective for infants since the composition of their saliva is vastly different than adults.

why so defensive” was a rhetorical question so don’t pull semantics on me

So was: “You don’t read your respondents that well, do you”.

Yes but I didn’t play the ASD card.

@Aarno,

Why do you think and weakened or killed pathogen is more potent than wild one

I didn’t say the wild pathogen was less potent; I said the body’s exposure to it was a ‘typical’ exposure to a typical pathogen. Weakened or killed pathogens are atypical agents.

How do this happen

It goes back to U.S. cold war politics & competition with Russia to have a healthier, vaccinated population.

There were epidemiological studies showing that tobacco smoking cause cancer. There are epidemiological studies showing that vaccines prevent autism. Why do you accept one and reject another

Those epidemiological studies showing that tobacco smoking cause cancer were overruled for decades by Big Tobacco. Here’s how it happened:

https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft8489p25j;brand=ucpress

Weakened pathogen is atypical, because it is weakened. It does not cause disease. Certainly it cannot cause things wild pathogen do not.
That epidemiological studies were rejected shows by itself that they existed. And Big Tobacco could not prevent them

@ Aarno,

The link I provided will show some interesting parallels between smoking & vaccines. Not as a product but in the context of what lies & mass propagandization look like. How ‘the masses’ can be fooled not by an elaborate conspiracy but by a few high level executives with a lot to lose.

That’s literally where the taunt ‘correlation does not equal causation’ came from.

“How to establish The Anti’s’: Public ridicule of those who insisted that smoking was bad for you & epidemiology so sound that the Surgeon General couldn’t crack the case until 1964.

It can happen. It has happened before.

‘If smoking isn’t causing cancer what is’ … Big Tobacco threw everybody under the bus. Industrial, manufacturing, asbestos, power lines.

Funny thing about asbestos … & mesotheliomas. They were right; smoking only exacerbates mesothelioma. SV40 causes it. They came very close at blowing the lid off that one. I’ve spent days combing Big Tobacco ‘now declassified’ documents & they do acknowledge SV40 as a vector agent for chemo .

But fell short of nailing their best scapegoat by far. Dirty science. Guess the NIH took notes. Well, actually; they quite literally took the whole playbook.

It’s worth noting that one of the scientists who worked with Big Tobacco (Bernadine Healy) also got on the antivax gravy train for a while (she was J. B. Handley’s “favorite scientist”). Jenny McCarthy did tobacco ads as recently as 5 years ago. It’s not clear what about big tobacco (aside from the cash) so appeals to the antivax crowd – surely this correlation deserves investigation, though.

@ Andrew,

surely this correlation deserves investigation, though

LOL. Don’t it though.

FWIW, I think what they did to their consumers was despicable but sometimes; you just need to fight fire with fire,

There’s a lot more connections between the antivax crowd and the big tobacco folks

1) both groups define “freedom” in odd ways: for big tobacco, “freedom” is the right to sell dangerous products without annoying warnings, while for the antivaxxers “freedom” is the right to expose their children and other people’s children to crippling/deadly diseases without restrictions

2) both groups are focused on celebrities: big tobacco recruited movie stars to sell their crap, while antivax seeks out stars to get their message to as many people as possible (while the doctors telling the truth about tobacco and vaccines simply did the research proving tobacco dangerous and vaccines healthy, hoping that the public would get the message without celebrities to lead them by the hand).

With those things in common, it’s not surprising that a big tobacco proponent can slide into antivax propagandizing or an antivaxxer can sell e-cigs. The skills (a winning smile, a lack of conscience and a love of money) that make one a good antivaxxer make one a good cigarette-pusher, too.

You still harp this SV40 and cancer thing (I mean human cancer, not hamster one). Prove it, for Pete’s sake. Even existence of SV40 in cancer cells is questionable. And in a case of autism, it is obviously genetic. No need to throw everything under the bus.

Funny thing about asbestos … & mesotheliomas. They were right; smoking only exacerbates mesothelioma. SV40 causes it.

Great non sequitur. I’m sure you have a ready explanation for the fact that mesothelioma was documented well before SV40 made it into the polio vaccine. Were green monkeys especially popular as pets among textile workers? A delicacy?

This idiocy is especially vexing to me because I had to read scores of asbestos/mesothelioma depositions back in the early ’90s when working for a large law firm, which went into the suffering of the victims in great detail. Yet here comes some glib yobbette riding her hobby horse.

@ Narad,

I’m sure you have a ready explanation for the fact that mesothelioma was documented well before SV40 made it into the polio vaccine

Yeah, I do.

There is a genetic component, a mutation & a cancer protein; HMGB1 found to be elevated in Mesothelioma patients.

The biggest environmental factor is actually a naturally occurring asbestos-like substance known as Erionite. It is a mineral that develops from volcanic ash & water that can be found in gravel & stone. In the Turkish region of Cappadocia, it was used for masonry for buildings & in some villages, Mesothelioma is responsible for over 50% of all mortality.

Unfortunately, Eronite is also found in large quantities in North Dakota & has been used in the development of gravel roads & baseball fields.

https://www.mesotheliomaguide.com/doctor/dr-michele-carbone/

Were green monkeys especially popular as pets among textile workers

Rhesus monkeys are the main culprits for harboring SV40. SV40s presence in green monkeys is thought to be relatively low; 10%, I believe.

Rhesus monkeys are the main culprits for harboring SV40.

Citation needed, as they say, but so what? You’re claiming, without a shred of evidence, that no, it’s not abestos but rather SV40 that causes mesothelioma.

The biggest environmental factor is actually a naturally occurring asbestos-like substance known as Erionite. It is a mineral that develops from volcanic ash & water that can be found in gravel & stone. In the Turkish region of Cappadocia, it was used for masonry for buildings & in some villages, Mesothelioma is responsible for over 50% of all mortality.

Oh, and congratulations on the quick W—dia mining. The fact that this contradicts the whole SV40-is-the-cause-of-mesothelioma routine seems to have floated over your head.

Engagement at any cost.

“How ‘the masses’ can be fooled not by an elaborate conspiracy but by a few high level executives with a lot to lose.”
“I call nobody here shills, Hitler & I don’t disparage big pharma. I could actually care less about pharma. ”

Changing your story again. At this point, I think you’re just a very dull troll.

A curious non-parallel between smoking and vaccination: antivaxers are quite willing to accept epidemiologic evidence linking smoking to disease, but utterly reject similar forms of evidence showing linkage between vaccination and dramatic declines in vaccine-preventable diseases. And of course they deny the great weight of epidemiologic evidence showing no link between vaccination and autism.

Epidemiology is only valued by antivaxers when it supports what they believe.

@ DB,

Almost everybody is willing to accept epidemiologic evidence linking smoking to disease.

Almost nobody is aware of how Big Tobacco literally redefined the parameters used in epidemiology in our college textbooks, in order to cast doubt & almost nobody knows that this ‘controversy’ continued well past the Surgeon Generals report in 1964 & was carried over into ‘second hand smoke’ impact research.

Nobody is aware that for the next three decades, epidemiological methods were created specifically to deny risk & your SBM was fooled. It didn’t even come close to cracking the case. That was accomplished by an anonymous whistle blower:

On May 12, 1994, an unsolicited box of what appeared to be tobacco company documents was delivered to Professor Stanton Glantz at the University of California, San Francisco (UCSF). The documents in the box dated from the early 1950s to the early 1980s. They consisted primarily of confidential internal memoranda related to B&W and BAT. Many of the documents contained internal discussions of the tobacco industry’s public relations and legal strategies over the years, and they were often labeled “confidential” or “privileged.” The return address on the box was simply “Mr. Butts

https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft8489p25j&chunk.id=d0e172&toc.depth=1&toc.id=d0e110&brand=ucpress

Your SBM missed it then. It could be missing a link between autism & vaccines.

Almost nobody is aware of how Big Tobacco literally redefined the parameters used in epidemiology in our college textbooks

I had no such textbooks, but I’m quite curious what the before and after of these “parameters” might be, as well as what they are in the first place.

@Narad,

Don’t forget, there is likely a significant portion of all populations in the world for which science is a gigantic pile of fact regurgitation; i.e. memorize math, physics, chemistry and biology with absolutely no awareness of the experimental method

Alain

@Christine,
Meet Jake, aka Master Crosby, aka, the gnat. Jake, has a master degree in epidemiology (no PhD tho) and is totaly anti-vaccine. You’ll feel right at home debating with him and maybe there’s an available job as investigating journalism for you at his joint…

Good luck,

Alain

Interesting thing is that in spite of Big Tobacco defining parameters of epidemiological research, epidemiologists found correction between connection between smoking and lung cancer.

@ Denice,

If what you say is in any way reasonable, there would be whole issues of periodicals focusing upon the research
So, where is it

Synaptic pruning, microglia activation, immune mediation, MIA, similar biomarkers in multiple neurological disorders … Where have you been?

The landscape of autism research has changed so much since 2011, when Offit was quoted as saying autism isn’t even immune mediated.

The research of ‘autism as immune-mediated’ is literally exploding from every continent & country on the planet & you actually can’t see it?

Show where vaccines have been implicated in those mechanisms and neurological disorders.

@ Denice,

I can’t. Yet.

This is very new research. Despite that evidenced based articles have pin-pointed the immune-system as a primary factor in autism since the late 1980s, most of it just sat around in preference for autism genetic studies …

… Which are important, no doubt about that. I am so excited that my son & I are now participating in this research.

And then, of course, the epidemiology studies ad nauseum, of which I am underwhelmed by, based on learning how acceptable methods of epidemiology could be termed ‘junk science’ by an industry with much to lose & how they rewrote the textbooks that any doctor or scientist who was in med school between the mid 1980s to the early 2000s is sure to have used.

The post-mortem brain tissue is what was lacking & much needed & was distributed starting in 2014.

https://www.sfari.org/resource/autism-brainnet/

So I don’t have what you ask me for. Yet. But I think there is enough evidence available for Offit to be able to state ‘It now looks like autism IS immune-mediated, after all’.

I’m not holding my breath for that one.

” I can’t, Yet”

Ask someone- other than me- Why that is.

I suggest Science Mom, Dangerous Bacon, TBruce, Chris, Chris Hickie, Narad, Julian** etc.

** apologies, minions, if I left you out but you know who you are.

Why you reject epidemiological studies ? Pinpoint an error. Why do you think every epidemiologist in the world is in the payroll of Big Pharma ? Of course, because you do not like result.
Why do you reject genetic research ? Again, pinpoint the error. Actually there are many known genes already.
You only have shown that some cytokines (without any specific profile) are more expressed. You know that boys are much more probable to have autism. Why would male immune system be that different ?

Despite that evidenced based articles have pin-pointed the immune-system as a primary factor in autism since the late 1980s, most of it just sat around in preference for autism genetic studies …

Oh really?

@ Narad,

it’s not abestos but rather SV40 that causes mesothelioma

I totally f**cked that up, didn’t I. You are right. I shouldn’t have said asbestos doesn’t cause mesothelioma, I should have said it isn’t the only cause of mesothelioma.

I stand corrected, thank you.

OK. The worst form seems to be crocidolite. You still seem to be reserving the possibility that SV40 causes mesothelioma, though.

@ Narad,

You still seem to be reserving the possibility that SV40 causes mesothelioma, though

You are driving me crazy! (I know; a short drive)

I watched that entire video with Janet Butel you gave the link for. She is WON-DER-FUL! Love her.

Remember how I said she worked with Dr. Carbone? He holds the 2014 Meso Foundation Pioneer Award, is a member of the Meso Foundation’s Science Advisory Board, is credited with the discovery of the genetic causes of mesothelioma & served on the American Cancer Society’s Board of Directors.

From the link I provided above about the Erionite:

One of his biggest breakthroughs involved the discovery of a DNA tumor virus known as SV40. Studies conducted on SV40 determined that it contributes to the development of mesothelioma tumors and many mesothelioma patients have this virus

And some studies do not find SV40 from mesothelioma cells. One should compare studies, determining cause of the difference, not picking studies that agrees with your predetermined opinion..

@ Denice,

Ask someone- other than me- Why that is

Why? I already know why that is: It’s 2019.

You can’t go from a few cubes of an autistic person’s brain tissue showing scrambled, overgrown synapses in 2014 & conclude by 2019 that vaccines are causing it.

Even though the research studies were concluding that autism is indeed immune-mediated by late 2015-2016.

You also can’t go from ‘autism is immune mediated’ in 2016 to ‘vaccines are causing autism’ by 2019 either.

That’s why I never asked why that is. I already knew why. You asked.

You ignore research showing autism is genetic (last one from Karolinska Institutet, not NIH). You should consider all relevant research.

@ Aarno,

You ignore research showing autism is genetic

Of course autism is genetic; I haven’t ignored that at all. So is lung cancer; even Mesothelioma.

Obesity, diabetes, heart disease … all genetic. None are chromosomal disorders, nor are they single-gene disorders. They are multifactorial. Lucky for us, double bacon cheeseburgers are not compulsory.

Of course autism is genetic; I haven’t ignored that at all. So is lung cancer; even Mesothelioma.

I thought mesothelioma was caused by SV40. Can you not even keep your shit straight?

I hope the International Chemtrail Association is watching. I’m ordering an extra dose of vaccine spraying in Washington on the 14th of November.

Seems to me that the real epidemic is vaccine-injury lawsuits and liars. I look forward to the next V.I.L.E. demonstration.

The sv40 video.

Oh. I thought I posted audio of a panel discussion, but things have been hectic and I suppose I conflated things.

@ Catherine Craig,

There’s a lot more connections between the antivax crowd and the big tobacco folks

If you really knew the history & were familiar with the evidence, you would understand how dumb that sounds. My God, I’ve posted the link here three times & I shouldn’t even bother to respond to anyone who hasn’t even checked it.

BT tactics are the CDCs current MO.

From the ‘make fun of woo’, to the ‘junk science’ allegations, to the ‘correlation does not equal causation’ taunts, to the attempted media manipulation, to the ‘label them Antis’, OMG; it just doesn’t stop.

Today’s CDC is yesterday’s Big Tobacco. What does that say about vaccines?

Today’s CDC is yesterday’s Big Tobacco.

So, the CDC is trying to market flavored vaccines to kids? Don’t vaccinate themselves?

There is a massive archive of industry documents at UCSF; if we (tinw) weren’t dealing with a towering example of Dunning–Kruger, you’d start digging into this information rather than the ground.

@ Narad,

Many BT executives smoked & died from smoking-related illness; including some of the major players in the conspiracy.

And I’m a regular visitor to the archive you linked to. I have been for years & I’ve read thousands of documents. Literally thousands.

Difference is that CDC has it right. Comparing two plots, as antivaxxers do, is not epidemiological study. Here “correlation does mean causation” taunt comes from. Here is a plot “showing” that organic food causes autism:
https://io9.gizmodo.com/1495051747
And many people agree with CDC. Many of things you mention are their statements.
And are many known tobacco carcinogens. Interesting thing is that Big Tobacco did its own animal studies. They are actually more easily manipulated.

Beside organic products, increases in internet usage, cell phones, Korean pop music, distressed jeans, the rise of Vladimir Putin, big box stores, Silicon Valley corporations, the DJIA and housing prices in NY and CA would also work ( not as much in 1990- lots more now).

It’s probably all due to that corporate greed and resulting real estate bubbles.

“If you really knew the history & were familiar with the evidence, you would understand how dumb that sounds. ”

You didn’t seem to be offended when Andrew made the same suggestion. Is there something about a woman suggesting that antivaxxers and cigarette pushers seem to come from the same basket that is particularly offensive to you? I notice that you didn’t provide any facts to refute it.

Yesterday’s associate of big tobacco (Bernadine Healy) is today’s antivax doctor.
Yesterday’s antivax shill (Jenny McCarthy) sells tobacco today.

What does that say about vaccines? It says that vaccines have the same enemies that healthy lungs have.

Hope you’re feeling a little calmer today.

Peace out.

@ Narad,

Yeah, it had the option of just the audio or the video. I’m interested in body language so I watched it too.

Orac,how old is that opening video? It sounds like the greatest hits of antivax,circa 2006.
Funniest thing I’ve seen in ages.Ms. Simpson is quite the drama queen.

@Denice Walter July 31, 2019 AT 11:01 AM
Speaking of our scaly overlords,whatever happened to our old friend Lord Draconis Zeneca?

Denice Walter August 1, 2019 AT 2:46 PM said
” Gastroenterologists should indeed study brains & Neurologists should study Gastroenterology”.

If what you say is in any way reasonable, there would be whole issues of periodicals focusing upon the research
So, where is it?

Maybe it’s YOU who needs to do more study,because the gut/brain connection is a real thing.There has been a lot of research in recent years,it is a growing area of serious research.Here are two good examples applicable to our discussion here.

https://academic.oup.com/rheumatology/article/55/suppl_2/ii68/2892202
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306452216002360

christine kincaid AUGUST 1, 2019 AT 1:41 AM said

I believe autism is immune mediated.

It is,but not the way you,and other antivaxers,think it is.I greatly admire the work of Dr. Van de Water,and her team at UC Davis.Read the article your link more carefully.The article is talking about regressive autism,in mothers who had Type 1 Diabetes,allergies,and asthma while pregnant,AND came from families with a history of inherited autoimmune disease,all of which is quite well documented in the literature.This is very different from the type of immune reaction,Ms. Simpson,Jake Crosby,or Age of Autism talk about.

@Julian Frost the article may be from 2006,but the information in it has not changed.Here is a one a decade more recent,with better information,minus the offending citations.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5143489/

@Christine K August 1, 2019 AT 10:26 AM
Does the name Richard Frye mean anything to you?

BTW,there ARE single gene forms of autism,with new ones discovered all the time.Most are individually quite rare,but no one ever said all autism is caused by the same gene(s) in every person,

Aarno: “Interesting thing is that in spite of Big Tobacco defining parameters of epidemiological research, epidemiologists found…connection between smoking and lung cancer.”

Also interesting: antivaxers have no problem accepting this epidemiologic evidence, but ignore/deny the same sort of evidence showing no connection between vaccination and autism.

The antivax cry of “It’s just like Big Tobacco! Doctors appeared in smoking ads!” has not gotten any less lame over the years. Good science led the charge for smoking cessation; good science also supports vaccination.

BTW Christine, it doesn’t look good when you complain how other posters are cruel and mean to you, but then attack someone else’s comments as “dumb”.

Doctors appeared in cigarette ads. OK. Was there ever a time when any recognized medical association actually endorsed smoking? There is a big difference between individuals doing something to make a buck and actual endorsement by their professional society. Has there ever been any enumeration of just how many of the supposed doctors appearing in tobacco ads were actually real docs?

In any case, the whole argument is just nonsense. There is abundant evidence that vaccines benefits vastly outweigh the risks. There was never any evidence that anything to do with tobacco had benefits, other than putting money in the producers pockets. Which reminds me. I must complain to the management of the local Safeway store. The night staff obviously smoke in the inside entrance between the inner and out doors and stink the place up. It is revolting.

Similarly, anti-vaxxers accuse the government of “fixing” data and lying BUT they easily accept- and continuously quote- figures the government provides about the rate of autism.
If the ( evil) government were trying to mislead and the rate were truly increasing, correlated to the rise in the number of vaccines, wouldn’t they also cover-up this rate increase? If they are so powerful- able to hide data, discard results they don’t like (in black garbage bags yet – a la Thompson) and bribe scientists into submission, they could do most anything.

Next, anti-vaxxers may claim that they’re getting “disappeared”. “We had 9 million supporters on our FB page and now- poof !
Where did they go?”
( Believe me, I could tell you stories about woo-meisters who were tailed by black ops and had their careers sabotaged. Anti-vaxxers hear stories like this as well- material like this shapes their thinking)

I was severely vaccine injured as a child. I will be here to try to make sure no one else has to go through what i did.

WE, ALL OF US, NEED TO LISTEN TO THE HEARTFELT POEM (first video, 11:06 min) at this site: https://respectfulinsolence.com/2019/07/30/vie-event-antivaxers-march/

As for the article’s beginning “critique” being that of a white mom using rap to express her concerns was ‘unprofessional’ rap? CONSIDERING BLACK INFANTS ARE 700 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO COME DOWN WITH AUTISM FROM CDC VACCINES THAN WHITE INFANTS – WHAT BETTER ART FORM THAN TO USE RAP TO ALERT BLACK AMERICANS? Most of this link (after the article and videos) is dedicated to informed and (alas) un-informed comments, however.

As for video #2, start at 1:30 and listen to end.

Video #3 is a commercial for the D.C. event (so can be ignored) HOWEVER, the article’s comment re: Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. (the “fiercely pro-vaccine” antivax leader) – MUST BE ADDRESSED:
RFK’s stance is NOT confusing and never has been. He addresses the manipulation around “Whether or not to vaccinate” as NEVER HAVING BEEN THE ISSUE HERE AT ALL – but a simple question parents and their physicians CANNOT ANSWER! DO YOU KNOW WHAT INGREDIENTS ARE IN THE VIAL OF VACCINE YOUR DOCTOR GETS FROM THE CDC? If you don’t (and your MD certainly does not – nor would he ever question this) then don’t allow your child to be vaccinated until you do know.

Another example of censorship (besides what is actually in vaccines?): Why are consumers NOT ALLOWED to know which foods are GMO product?
Another example? Detroit has to recall defective cars (a major investment for most Americans) so why is there zero QC for vaccines?

Video #4: Start listening at 0:49 re: D.C. event.

Video #5: This trailer is not of import to watch; however, the article’s comment distracts from the issue of vaccines [quote]: “They also have—wait for it—the VAXXED bus” [end quote] The VAX “vehicle’s intention” is TO SAVE LIVES -vs- another type of “vehicle’s intention” which is TO KILL LIVES ~ called a SWATmobile ~ so would ask ORAC (and Americans) to do a search worded: “How many innocent Americans are LEGALLY murdered by SWAT TEAMS” If you can’t find 80,000 – keep looking as the Internet is being scrubbed clean of information Americans would be uncomfortable to learn about. However, the article again distracts from the import of the issue of vaccines re: using the Caduceus symbol on their bus instead of the Staff of Asclepius implies an ‘error.’ For those interested in the history of both symbols: http://drblayney.com/Asclepius.html

However, this reader does take exception to [quote]: In any event, any physician, nurse, or other provider who attends this [anti-vax] event can quite safely be referred to as a QUACK.

FACT: The term QUACK was a physicians’ term to designate those amongst their own healing profession (fellow doctors) who prescribed medicants to temporarily alleviate or mask symptoms instead of CURING their patient’s affliction. But perhaps instead of a bus insignia being bantered here (one vs two snakes) Americans should be more concerned as to WHY THE HIPPOCRATIC OATH to do no further harm (than the affliction has already compromised) is no longer a required part of a physician’s creed? CHEMOTHERAPY is a direct violation of that oath but is the #1 “cash cow” for medicine to dis-a-VOW several types of cancer cures already discovered by MANY [now dead] physicians. Coinkydink?

So have posted my comment below re: the article’s HORRIFIC ‘justification’ and egocentric banter throughout:

ORAC? Why was the author/their credentials NOT identified? A total lack of CLINICAL DATA only substantiates feelings. Go to NVIC (Nat’l Vaccine Information Center) ~ OR ~ just do a search worded “How much money has the CDC paid out to American families for vaccine injuries and deaths”

(Pssst! $4 billion thus far) So either do your homework as a parent, or gamble with YOUR child’s life (that will now also include YOUR family’s financial destiny) for the rest of YOUR life.

That old adage: You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink? Well, I’d like to add [what should be an addendum to it] for every American out there: “You can give people the facts … but you can’t make them THINK.

Also realize that when sheepskins are handed out at universities nationwide ~ morality is neither conferred nor even implied ~ as to whether or not a degree benefits John Q Public (if at all) or a lifelong motivation such as GREED, which serves corporate America’s interests instead.

But if only GENOCIDE can get your attention, perhaps this link may ‘persuade you’ to actually THINK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQh6ZVh9DeU (39:31)

“BLACK INFANTS ARE 700 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO COME DOWN WITH AUTISM FROM CDC VACCINES THAN WHITE INFANTS”

This is instructive. If the probability is finite then where are they? If the probability is nought the result is independent of any ratio no matter how large.

Congratulations! By means of mathematical reasoning you’ve demonstrated that vaccines don’t cause autism.

Respect! You have none. These parents/crazy moms are anti vaxxers. They are former vaxxers! They all followed Doctors orders and that resulted in an injured child.

Get off your high horse. You don’t know everything and neither does the CDC, FDA or you MD. Information changes decade by decade. Drugs come and go. Many drugs kills thousands before they get taken off the market. Think vioxx (500,000) and opioids.

And calling someone antivaxxer is like calling a pro choice person “anti baby “. So you’re not only insensitive you’re also offensive.

We might not know everything, but we DO have huge quantities of evidence supporting the safety and efficacy of vaccines and also showing that they don’t cause the health problems and diseases that antivaxers attribute to them.

Would love for you to enlighten us all with a comprehensive, unbiased study of ALL of the current mandated schedule. Vaxxed vs. unvaxxed. Let’s see how many chronic illness, neurological disorders, SIDS deaths, food allergies, eczema, asthma, autism, or generally unhealthy kids are associated with each group. They’ll never do one. Too much to hide. Lord help all of you. I hope you never experience the pain and suffering of having a vaccine-injured child. We have NOTHING to lose. Why would we be lying? Your defensiveness of the vaccine propaganda and agenda should be something you all lean into and really think about why you’re feeling that way. It’s probably the same as I was. A lifetime of being told this is the way. I went along with it, as the majority of people do. Never again. We all want the same thing at the core of all of this. Healthy kids and a healthy population. But vaccines are not making people healthier overall. There’s too much human cost. We should ALL be demanding better from the industry. Why are you defending a liability-free industry making billions? Would you be ok with your anxiety or cholesterol or diabetes meds causing side effects that weren’t indicated by your doctor? Or not being able to sue if you had a serious complication? And then being shamed if you spoke up and said it hurt you? No, you would not. Vaccines are a medical procedure and not a one size fits all. Nothing in medicine is.

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