As regular readers know, we’ve been in the midst of a measles epidemic since last year, and it’s been the worst in a generation. As of August 8, the CDC has confirmed 1,182 cases of measles. Contrary to the the way antivaxers like to point to a 50 year old Brady Bunch episode that made light the kids catching the measles and having to stay home from school as evidence that measles isn’t serious, measles can be very serious. The CDC also notes that 124 of the people infected with measles had to be hospitalized, and 64 had complications, including pneumonia and encephalitis. Indeed, the past and present rebuke antivaxers who claim measles is just a mild childhood illness that provides natural immunity. Quite the opposite. Measles actually suppresses the immune system for up to three years or even more, leaving children more susceptible to other diseases. Contributing to these outbreaks has been vaccine hesitancy leading to the failure to vaccinating, leading to areas where vaccine uptake is below the level needed to maintain herd immunity, leading to—you guessed it!—measles outbreaks. To combat this, states have been cracking down on nonmedical exemptions known as “personal belief exemptions” (PBEs). California was the first to do this, passing SB 277 into law and joining Mississippi and West Virginia as a state in which only medical exemptions to school vaccine mandates would be permitted. This brings us to the discussion of another California bill under consideration, SB 276 and the strange involvement of the Church of Scientology in opposing it.
What is SB 276? It’s a successor to SB 277 necessitated by a loophole in SB 277. The greatest flaw in SB 277 is that it permits basically any physician to write a letter claiming a medical exemption to school vaccine mandates for a patient, rather than requiring state oversight to mae sure that only medically valid medical exemptions were granted. Predictably, the antivaccine quacks in California saw this loophole as an opportunity. SB 277 took full effect at the beginning of the 2016-2017 school year, and for a while things went quite well. Early results showed that SB 277 was working swimmingly. The percentage of children not vaccinated plummeted. There was, however, a troubling sign when the study showing the improvement in vaccine uptake was published two years ago. There was a significant uptick in the medical exemption rate. At the time it was speculated that some of the increase in the medical exemption rate was due to parents of children who did have medical conditions for which a medical exemption was legitimately indicated but had just opted out using a PBE because it was so much easier. Into this morass soon plunged Dr. Bob Sears leading the way teaching parents how to secure medical exemptions for questionable indications. Soon, there was a cottage industry of quacks selling bogus medical exemptions to school vaccine mandates, even online. Indeed, in the Bay area five doctors wrote one-third of the medical exemption letters. Last month, it was noted that, for the first time since SB 277 went into effect, vaccination rates in California declined slightly.
In response to these problems, Senator Richard Pan, who co-sponsored SB 277 and was the driving force behind getting it passed, introduced SB 276, a law that would mandate a database of medical exemptions, so that the state can keep track of which doctors are issuing the most medical exemptions, and require that requests for medical exemptions to school vaccine mandates be approved by the State Public Health Officer or designee, who could reject exemptions not supported by science. The bill’s been watered down a bit since then, with amendments removing the provision that would authorize the State Health Officer to review medical exemptions and revoke the ones he deems fraudulent or inconsistent with medical guidelines. On the other hand, the bill would require that the state health department to provide a standardized form for use for medical exemptions:
This bill would instead require the State Department of Public Health, by January 1, 2021, to develop and make available for use by licensed physicians and surgeons an electronic, standardized, statewide medical exemption request that would be transmitted using the California Immunization Registry (CAIR), and which, commencing January 1, 2021, would be the only documentation of a medical exemption that a governing authority may accept. The bill would specify the information to be included in the medical exemption form, including a certification under penalty of perjury that the statements and information contained in the form are true, accurate, and complete. The bill would, commencing January 1, 2021, require a physician and surgeon to inform a parent or guardian of the bill’s requirements and to examine the child and submit a completed medical exemption request form to the department, as specified. By expanding the crime of perjury, the bill would impose a state-mandated local program.
The bill would also require the department to annually review immunization reports from schools, to identify schools with an overall immunization rate of less than 95%, physicians and surgeons who submitted 5 or more medical exemption forms in a calendar year, and schools and institutions that do not report immunization rates to the department. It would also require a clinically trained staff member who is a physician, surgeon, or a registered nurse to review all medical exemptions meeting these conditions, authorizing the State Public Health Officer to review the exemptions identified by that staff member as fraudulent or inconsistent with established guidelines. The department can report physicians issuing fraudulent or scientifically unjustified medical exemptions to the state medical board.
As was the case with SB 277, as SB 276 has been wending its way through the California legislature and has now reached the point where it looks nearly certain to pass and Governor Gavin Newsom has stated that he would sign it, the antivaccine movement is going nuts:
California’s debate over a proposed law to tighten kids’ exemptions for mandatory vaccines was never subtle.
Lawmakers sponsoring the bill say they’ve been receiving death threats for months. Someone in June mailed Assembly members dozens of bricks etched with appeals to kill the measure. On Twitter, celebrities heckle vaccine proponents and each side warns of deadly consequences.
Now, as lawmakers head into the final weeks of this year’s legislative session, anti-vaccine advocates are turning to an out-of-state political operative known for provocative campaigns in a last-ditch effort to undermine a bill that Gov. Gavin Newsom has already indicated he’d sign.
More on that out-of-state political operative in a moment. First, I can’t help but point out that I’m more worried this time. I’ve discussed the violent rhetoric of the antivaccine movement on more than one occasion. Now, death threats are nothing new. Paul Offit, for instance, has been getting them for a long time. I’ve even gotten the occasional one. I do fell, however, that it’s getting worse. When you have people out their like Del Bigtree saying “now’s the time” for guns and exhorting antivaxers to fight and die for freedom and antivaxers cosplaying a violent fictional terrorist, you have to wonder whether it’s a matter of when, not if, an antivaxer acts on the increasingly intense rhetoric. Sure, the leaders turning up the heat on the rhetoric are never going to actually take up arms, but antivaxers listening to them might.
It’s not just Del Bigtree using overheated rhetoric. It’s the “consultant” brought in by antivaxers in a last ditch effort to block passage of SB 276:
The consultant, Jonathan Lockwood of Oregon, charges that California leaders are ready to “sacrifice children” by compelling more kids to get vaccines through Senate Bill 276.
“Any lawmaker who votes yes on SB 276 will have blood on their hands. It’s up to each of them to decide if they will be accessories to the real human cost of this lethal legislation,” wrote Lockwood. “How much is a life worth? Will lawmakers sacrifice children for political purposes or will they acknowledge and act according to the truth?
He’s supported by an alliance called the Conscience Coalition, which is a national effort founded by California-native Renee Bessone and lobbyist Greg Mitchell. Lockwood is a spokesman for Republican lawmakers in Oregon.
The trio has partnered with groups and families across California to tank Sen. Richard Pan’s measure, which they say will hurt, even kill, children.
But they’re not antivaccine. Oh, no. Don’t call them that. They just think that vaccines hurt and kill children. They just think that school vaccine mandates “sacrifice children.” They just accepted the aid of a political operative with ties to the Church of Scientology who rants that any lawmakers who support vaccine mandates and closing loopholes in those mandates “will have blood on their hands.” But don’t call opposition to SB 276 “antivaccine.”
Here’s the interesting thing that was totally left out of the published story. Jonathan Lockwood is one of the leaders of something called the Conscience Coalition, which appears to be a Scientology front group, as noted by Tony Ortega on his blog a week ago:
The Conscience Coalition is continuing to organize against SB 276, a bill that would require California health officials to monitor doctors and schools that have more than usual rates of medical exemptions from required childhood vaccines. Members are being asked to contact or visit their legislators to oppose the bill.
The Coalition is led by Scientologists Greg Mitchell, Renee Bessone and non-Scientologist Jonathan Lockwood. Its other members appear to all be Scientologists. They have announced two priorities — opposing childhood vaccination and promoting religious freedom.
According to Ortega, Lockwood is not a Scientologist himself. Rather, he’s training Scientologists how to do political activism and to increase their impact by using Twitter.
Speaking of Twitter, on Twitter The Real Truther posted this:
The other director of the Conscience Coalition, Greg Mitchell, is a registered lobbyist for the Church of Scientology and apparently received a half a million from the church over the last five years. In another post, Tony Ortega notes that the Conscience Coalition “doesn’t have the official blessing of the church yet, but there’s no doubt they’re well connected with OSA, the Office of Special Affairs, which is responsible for all contact with the world outside Scientology,” and adds this:
With one notable exception the members are entirely Scientologists. Follow any of them on social media and you will find photos from the Freewinds, from Flag Land Base, from Delphian Academy, and from Scientology social reform front groups. The “Chief architect, strategist and lobbyist” of the group is Greg Mitchell, a registered lobbyist for Scientology who received half a million dollars from the church over the last five years. His wife Renee Bessone is listed as the founder and chair of the organization.
The third member of the troika is Jonathan Lockwood, a conservative political operative once described as “flat-out deranged” by The Denver Post editorial board for a 2015 attack ad against U.S. Senator Michael Bennet. We can find no evidence that Lockwood is or ever was a Scientologist. He has been recruited as an ally of Scientology, as described in the policies of L. Ron Hubbard. His views on psychiatry are certainly in line with those of Scientologists.
Why is Scientology apparently assisting the opposition to SB 276? It’s not the first time that I’ve noticed connections between antivaxers and Scientology. For instance, during the battle to get SB 277 passed, Minister Tony Muhammad and the Nation of Islam teamed with antivaxers Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. and Brian Hooker to rally opposition to SB 277. Later that year, RFK Jr. and Minister Muhammad teamed up to lead a demonstration over vaccines at the CDC. It turns out that the Nation of Islam and its Leader Minister Louis Farrakhan have close ties with the Church of Scientology dating back 15 years:
The alliance between the Nation of Islam, a black organization, and Scientology, an almost entirely white one, was hatched in the mid-Aughts, when the late Isaac Hayes, one of the only famous black Scientologists, approached Scientology leader David Miscavige and asked why the “religion” wasn’t doing more to court black Americans. So Miscavige reached out to the Nation of Islam, and by 2010, they began promoting the “benefits” of Dianetics, the core set of ideas preached by Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard.
During a sermon in Chicago on July 1, 2012, Farrakhan proclaimed to his acolytes, “I found the tool that I know can help us. And I thank God for Mr. L. Ron Hubbard. And I thank God for his research and teaching.”
So, again, why is the Church of Scientology sending some of its heavy hitters to assist the antivaccine movement in California? Tony Ortega notes in a post that he used to say that, although the Church of Scientology doesn’t speak out against vaccines but that because of L. Ron Hubbard’s hatred for the American Medical Association and his disrespect for doctors in general, many Scientologists do tend to be suspicious of western medicine, seek out alternative therapies, “and yes, many of them are anti-vaccination.” In the past, he used to say that he didn’t think the Church was antivaccine, but now:
But now, we think we might have to adjust our answer when that question comes up in the future, because increasingly it does look like the church itself is engaging in the anti-vaxx panic, and goading it along. Why? We’re not sure.
In the same post, Ortega observes that Greg Mitchell attended that antivaccine meeting in Rockland County, NY and even spoke there. He asked former high ranking members of the Church, such as Amy Scobee, about it:
We told her that we’ve been pointing out to other reporters that although the church doesn’t express an anti-vaxx position, Hubbard’s anti-doctor diatribes have produced Scientologists who are skeptical of western medicine, including vaccines.
She agreed with that, and pointed out that in her 20 years at Int Base, she never saw Sea Org members getting vaccines or being given the time off to get them.
As for what’s been going on lately with Scientology seemingly getting involved in anti-vaxx activities, she admits to being as bewildered as we are.
But she says that Lucy Cole’s activities wouldn’t be happening if it hadn’t been approved by Scientology, and specifically with oversight by the Office of Special Affairs, Scientology’s secret police.
Lucy Cole is a Scientology Operating Thetan VIII, the highest current auditing level in Scientology. She’s been helping the Nation of Islam coordinate their antivaccine activities and is frequently seen with Minister Muhammad (who, it turns out, is also a Scientologist) at antivaccine events.
No one, not ex-Scientologists who continue to monitor their former church nor those who study Scientology, seems to know why the Church of Scientology is increasingly insinuating itself into the antivaccine movement or why it is sending resources to California for a last ditch effort to stop the passage of SB 276. Whatever they are, they can’t be good. The Church is playing with fire, too. Given theincreasingly violent rhetoric from antivaxers opposing SB 276 and how Jonathan Lockwood is echoing overheated rhetoric similar to what Del Bigtree has been laying down, I fear that it wouldn’t take much to inspire someone to take action.
Of course, one obvious reason Scientology is courting antivaxers could simply be to recruit them. The Church has been suffering from declining membership for several years now, and could actually be desperate enough to see antivaxers as recruits who might reverse that decline. Antivaxers tend to be suspicious of medicine and, like Scientologists, extremely hostile to psychiatry, particularly behavioral treatments for autism and psych meds for ADHD. They’re predisposed to be receptive to Scientology’s message. Only the leadership of Scientology knows for sure why the Church is becoming cozier and cozier with antivaxers.
131 replies on “Why is the Church of Scientology helping antivaxers in a last ditch attempt to block passage of SB 276?”
When will this end? Do we want to go back to the days of measles, mumps and diphtheria? Will these children be allowed to travel abroad for vacations?
Scientology has long had a big push against stimulants for ADHD and psychiatric meds for children in general. Among themselves psychiatrists are slobbering insane super villains. They talk about murdering them.
Children taking meds is a big talking point for them. Nobody likes the idea of a child on antipsychotics. The Scientologists convince people that the symptoms are actually caused by the drugs and that the doctors are trying to destroy the child.
Even worse there have been cases where the school decided a child was just intractable and told the parents to take them home until adequately stabilized.
Scientology also claims to be able to treat psychosomatic illnesses, but they are less than clear about which illnesses those are.
It’s the same story, just a different name on the cartoon villain. If it gets parents on board they don’t care.
Scientology makes a mockery of religion–which is already a mockery of its own–what’s that called?
Dell Bigtree and this Lockwood guy are completely off the rails. It’s very surreal to read about this–even in the age of Drumpf (whose family took a fake name and pretended to be Swedish).
Deconstruction.
Maybe Scientology feels it can harvest some new members out of this fetid melange that is the American anti-vax movement of 2019?
The anti-vax movement increasingly relies on these extremist/fringe group for both supporters and almost certainly financing as well. Lockwood claims he was critical in the takedown of Oregon’s HB3063 this year. That bill would have ended non-medical vaccine exemptions in Oregon, but got shelved when Republicans ran away from the state capitol and refused to come back to ratify a state budget unless certain bills were shelved (including HB3063 which would have o/w made it into law). So Lockwood can claim “expertise” and blocking “pro vax” legislation and AVers will pretty much sell their souls to defeat anything pro-vax. Plus if Lockwood could bring some $$$ from Scientology with him–well, again AVers would find it hard to say no. The ends seem to justify the means for them.
AVers, after losing out in Maine and NY this year (both eliminated non-medical vaccine exemptions) probably view California and SB276 as some last-ditch effort not to feel like they lost this year (when ironically you’d think they’d be celebrating all the cases of measles/injuries/hospitalization they caused in 2019).
This increasingly violent rhetoric from AVers is disturbing. They grossly distort efforts at increasing vaccination rates, throwing this term “mandatory vaccination” around, portraying it as kicking-down-door raids to vaccinate, rather than the very reasonable requirement that children–baring a valid medical exemption–be fully vaccinated in order to attend school–which is where many disease outbreaks are spread.
Scientology apart, I wonder why local California antivaccine activists think an association with a firebrand conservative and following his ideas is the best way to reach democratic AssemblyMembers in California.
Good question, D, but keep in mind that “firebrand” is a common character trait amongst leaders of the AV movement.
Being associated with Scientology may not be the best strategy in the world for anti-vaxxers: I would guess that most people would nearly automatically reject anything Scientology approved of- it certainly sells gossip sheets whenever they discuss a celebrity’s involvement or high position in the cult. Then there’s that television show, The Aftermath, uncovering Scientology’s BS and criminality. Of course, they call their front group something else just like quacks who get awards from CCR or appear in their films fail to mention that it represents Scientology: because if they did mention it, they’d lose followers.
AS an aside:
Orac and his minions have recently been “treated” to the inner mechanisms of anti-vax minds : these partisans are not affected by reason, citation or feasibility. As Barney Frank would say ( paraphrase), ” It’s easier to instruct a dining room table”. And as David Mamet would say – well, I can’t say that because it involves an ethnic slur** so I’ll clean it up: “Even if God came down and told you to do it, you’d still resist”. So intractable, rigid and self-absorbed.
Remember that Senator Pan was easily re-elected despite protests and funding against him.
** from Glen Gary, Glen Ross
Oooops!
Proofreading I see: it should be CCHR
Given that most people I know (yes, a small sample), both religious and not, respond to Scientology with “eww!” or an eye roll or other expression of dislike and disdain, yeah, I’m not sure it’s going to advance the anti-vax position any. Which is fine with me, obviously, but it seems like a weird choice on their part.
Because Scientologists are a bunch of cults.
That blue Scientology complex in the photo creeps me out.
I wonder whether they’re paying property tax on that parcel; it seems to vary among their rather large real estate holdings.
I can’t guess why the scientology cult would want to work with the anti-vax folks, but the other way: scientology is big time flush with money, and if they’re willing to spend it for the anti-vax people why wouldn’t the latter folks jump at the it?
Meanwhile, I just read that a 43-year-old Israeli flight attendant has died of measles. The third measles death in Israel this year: the other two were 18 months old, and 82 years old. That sure covers the age spectrum: shows that all of us are vulnerable. Will that matter to the antivaxxers? Why do I even bother to ask?
And: someone mailed a lot of bricks to the CA Assembly? That’s sure got to cost a lot of money in shipping, and what evil threat does a brick signify? That they’ll be thrown through the assembly members windows, or something?
Where do these people get off with “It’s a question of children’s lives” when it’s nothing but a question of sending them to some other school than a public one? Just suck it up: crazed antivaxxers and Scientologists probably wouldn’t want their kids exposed to a public school curriculum anyway.
A. There’s also a ten year old boy in a coma from measles. For a while now. Doesn’t look good.
B. I have followed this closely, and I don’t think the bricks were intended as a threat. They were supposed to write their child name and write that the child was vaccine injured. I think, strangely, it was a sympathy ploy. But I admit that following the logic is a bit hard.
This tragic death rate from measles in Israel is pretty close to the 1 in 1,000 rate that the CDC and other health agencies quote and observe. Anti-vaxxers on the other hand will lie and say the death rate is 1 in 10,000 or 1 in 100,000 from measles and discount all deaths from measles as due to some sort of pre-existing weakened immune system. That is not the case.
Anti-vaxxers are taking this bricks thing and claiming it pales in comparison to the bullying and intimidation by the big pharma lobby against CA state legislators. The world’s whiniest anti-vax pediatrician–aka Bob Sears–has a post stating this on his FB page today. Ironically right by it are some “Kill the Bill” posts for SB276 on Sears’ feed.
No implied violence there with “Kill the Bill.” Why none, what so ever.
Farrakhan, huh? Yeah, you should be worried; this is going to go racial.
What was that Thompson said about autism rates in African-American males back in 2014?
You should vaccinate your black boys on time.
The ones who get vaccinated late are more likely to be diagnosed with autism. Or they got diagnosed first and got caught up on vaccinations when they got medical care.
It was a small sample size anyway.
@ Squirrelite,
Like I said to Chris; it should be given earlier, while the DTP should be delayed. For all races.
“What was that Thompson said about autism rates in African-American males back in 2014?”
That they should get their MMR per the schedule since it was only the ones who got it late, like at three years old.
Though in reality, that blip was from kids who were not vaccinated probably due to poverty (newsflash: not everyone in the USA has health insurance nor health services). They were identified as needing special ed. preschool and then given the information to get their vaccines. See: https://thepoxesblog.wordpress.com/2014/08/22/andrew-jeremy-wakefield-plays-video-director-while-african-american-babies-die-or-something/
Which says: “The nail in the coffin for the Hooker paper is that autism is usually diagnosed by the time a child is three years old. There was no increased risk at 18 months, higher but not by a whole lot at 24, and then the three-fold increase at 36 months. Gee, was it the MMR vaccine, mister? No, the effect is being modified by age. It’s as if I asked you if your shoe size was bigger at 36 months because you drank milk vs because you were 36 months. It’s age. It’s the way that autism is diagnosed. You’re going to have more children diagnosed as autistic at 36 months than you will at 18 months or at 24 months.”
Also, the words of Thompson were repeated at https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2014/08/28/a-bad-day-for-antivaccinationists-a-retraction-and-the-cdc-whistleblower-issues-a-statement/:
“I want to be absolutely clear that I believe vaccines have saved and continue to save countless lives. I would never suggest that any parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly outweighed by their individual and societal benefits.”
@ Chris,
I don’t actually have a problem with the MMR, except that it’s given after & around the DTP/DTaP. If anything; it should probably be given way earlier. For all races.
So have you tried joining the Advisory Committee on Immunization? They do have members from the general public, a father whose son was affected by the oral polio vaccine was why it was replaced with the IPV. But be aware they will need actual scientific evidence, not just your opinions.
If you do not have a problem with the MMR, a gleeful reference to a conspiracy theory centered on MMR in this context is a bit strange.
DTaP is actually important early, I understand, because pertussis is so dangerous for infants, and it’s much less effective before the first three dose series is complete. In fact, it would be nice to be able to give it at birth. There’s at least one version being trialed for that, I hear.
And this is based on what exactly? Because from an immunology standpoint, nope.
You don’t know many urban black folks, do you? Jesus, when I was on the south side, their traveling propagandizers got about as much traction as the JWs and Mormons, all of whom could be spotted from a block away.
The power of the fez compels you!
I used to walk by on my usual path to the university; you could always tell when Farrakhan was in the building because it would be surrounded by earnest young men in bow ties. I wish I’d seen more fezzes, they strike me as infinitely cooler than bow ties.
That blue building used to be the old Cedars of Lebanon hospital. Eventually they merged with Mt Sinai to form Cedars-Sinai. When the new Sinai was built on the west side of L.A., the old building was sold, and Scientology got it. I forget whether Scientology bought it directly or bought it from somebody else, but when it was a hospital it wasn’t blue.
Good write up, ORAC. I find Jonathon Lockwood’s rhetoric deeply disturbing. He has literally picked a vicious attack against California Assemblywoman, Lorena Gonzelez, and is giving himself a lot of credit for accomplishments in other states that really didn’t happen because of him. He has a reputation for personal attacks full of lies which makes me wonder at the motives of anyone willing to associate with him. They must be desperate. Truly desperate.
@ doritmi,
If you do not have a problem with the MMR, a gleeful reference to a conspiracy theory centered on MMR in this context is a bit strange
It is sort of, isn’t it.
Of course, it’s also sort of strange that those who insist that antivaxxers aren’t okay with ANY vaccines ( you know, the supposed ‘ask them what vaccines they approve of & they won’t have any’) haven’t realized that THIS antivaxxer actually is discriminating & nobody has realized that this is the recommendation that is being considered right now by the WHO, thanks to one of the only provaccine researchers I trust: Peter Aaby.
Meaning that have a science-based rational for my views & it doesn’t matter Pretty much what I expected. For the record, I like Gregory Poland’s work too, although I used to be very skeptical of him.
Since I changed my position on vaccines in 2016, I wanted & thought it was possible to have a new-generation vaccine policy & program. One with honest critique & improvement but just recently; I have started to doubt that can happen.
So at this point; I’m struggling. I’m wondering if the ends & the means should just be damned. Throw that baby out with the bathwater? Maybe. The lack of critical thinking here is dangerous.
“Meaning that have a science-based rational for my views…”
What you have are sciency-sounding unexamined opinions. Sometimes what you say sounds almost like bone fide critical thinking, but it’s always attenuated. No, ma’am, you do not have a science-based rationale. It’s ‘based’ on science in the same way that MASH is ‘based’ on the movie. Less actually. No, if you did have a science-based rationale, people would work with you. You see, science folks are a lot more open-minded than you give them credit for. Ultimately the problem is your bigotry.
In their most recent thorough review the WHO decided that the evidence Aaby’s group raised on negative non-specific effects of DTP is weak and doesn’t justify a change in policy.
https://www.bmj.com/content/355/bmj.i5434
@ Chris,
So have you tried joining the Advisory Committee on Immunization
I wish I could trust this as a genuine suggestion but I know that you do not think highly of me. Does this mean you don’t think highly of the Advisory Committee on Immunization?
I would love to have a voice. A purpose. Input. I’m not sure what your understanding of severe autism is but I can’t work due to the severity of my son’s behaviors. Last year just between August-December I received a emergency call from the school 31 times.
Emergency. As in; there are 4 very large men on the floor with him & entire classrooms have been evacuated for the other students safety. Staff members being transported to the hospital. His behaviors are not actually that unusual for adolescent males with severe autism; it’s just that he is so large & strong that he causes mayhem & mass destruction, whereas the scrawny, frail kids just go stomp it out in the quiet room.
It’s never been easy but it’s never been this hard. This is supposed to be temporary (only another 10 years) & as soon as a respite worker would not be in mortal danger, I’d be ready to consider going back to work. This is not autism-lite. This is a war-zone. Autism-real. The autism none of you here wants anybody to know about. Fuck that.
I’d love to come to a meeting but I’d have to bring him. That might be a good thing; wake em up a bit.
Christine Kincade writes,
Fuck that.
MJD says,
Understood. Thanks for hanging around at this respectfully-insolent bee hive.
@ MJD,
Thank you & you are welcome. You are the one with stamina, though. I am allergic to bees.
The worst thing about this pro vaccine agenda is how it demands that parents of severely disabled children be utterly invalidated, while the high functioning are celebrated.
So what if vaccines DO cause autism? There isn’t anything wrong with autism … you must hate your child
Fools, They offer ‘special’ memberships into their elite SBM club to sciencey-spectrummy-aspies (but ONLY if the agree to agree) while leaving severely disabled children in the hands of parents who have at least one hand tied behind their back? This is abuse. Even for the sciencey-spectrummy-aspies. They are being used.
I am out in the community every day with my son. For the good & the bad. I refuse to be embarrassed into hiding. He is well-liked, even loved but everybody has seen the dark side. THIS is autism & it’s not my fault nor his that he is a walking advertisement for not vaccinating.
Doncha mean that we invalidate anti-vaxxers’ claims that it is the vaccines that cause autism and excoriate parents who blithely exploit their autistic children as props in their pity parade? I’m sure that’s what you meant since we advocate for the rights of all autistics.
Doucheniak, if you have nothing to say, say nothing.
Working with actual beehives, and knowing how well-organized a beehive is, I’ll take that as a compliment.
Random trivia: do you know that young, just-emerging-out-of-their-cell bees have no sting? If your friendly beekeeper pick-up a frame and bring in a secure place, for a few days you can play with your bees without any risk of being stung. They are also quite friendly and curious, if intend on exploring and learning to fly.
I’m talking about Apis mellifera. Other pollinators may be more precocious.
OTOH, the young bees’ immune system is already active and mature. It has to, neither the egg nor its birthing cell and the food in it were really sterile. The outside of their cell certainly isn’t.
Any chance of my ramblings about bee biology being about drawing a parallel to human biology is, of course, almost inexistant.
OTOOH, I think you have a bee in your bonnet.
You sure about that? I was thinking of several 4 engines bumblebees in the gut…
Alain
@ Alain
Aaah, that’s a possibility, too. That would explain the black smoke getting out sometimes.
Incidentally, contrary to popular belief, bumblebees do have a sting, and won’t hesitate to use it if you keep annoying them.
(I love this project my lab has on pollinators, I’m learning so many new things)
Nobody here denies that autism is real or that it can be serious. And, we all understand the need to hold somebody or something responsible for this kind of misfortune. All we ask is that you stop wasting time and resources blaming vaccines. That way, it can free up researchers to focus on real causes and cures for autism, rather than running yet another study that shows that vaccines have nothing to do with it.
You’re okay with MMR, but not DTap? Right. You say this, yet bring up the Thompson conspiracy theory? Ten years ago, I’m sure you were all about the mercury. And, when you realize that the preponderance of evidence shows DTap is fine too (or see a video of an infant dying of whooping cough that finally pulls on your heart strings), I’m sure you’ll find another vaccine or vaccine component to shift the blame to. Sorry, your crocodile tears get no sympathy from me over your autism plight when you grant none to anyone else. Somebody should bring an infant dying of pertussis to an antivax –oh, excuse me, a pro-safe-vaccine– meeting. Maybe then, you’ll believe it can be serious. The vaccine schedule exists as it does for a reason.
@ foolish physicist,
Ten years ago, I’m sure you were all about the mercury
Erm, no. I was pro vaccine util 2016 & I’ve not ever bought into the whole mercury thing.
your crocodile tears
I’m not crying, I’m pissed.
an infant dying of pertussis
Cry me a river; talk about crocodile tears. Building natural immunity is part of the evolutionary process, just like the broad autistic phenotype was supposed to be the superior result of the human evolutionary process. Your vaccines have destroyed both. We may as well chew off our own thumbs.
The vaccine schedule exists as it does for a reason
The wrong reasons.
@christine kincaid
Yeah, clearly. And making zero logical sense. You bring up the Thompson conspiracy, yet you approve of MMR. The Thompson conspiracy was about administration of MMR to a specific group. You can’t make me believe your opinion is worth anything if it isn’t even self-consistent.
You claim you have no time to actually be involved with vaccine legislation because of the time and effort your child requires and yet you have time to be here writing screeds of nonsense to complete strangers. Your judgment is very questionable.
Read your own comment; you’re crying yourself the river. Clearly, it’s always about you until somebody suggests that other people have plights. And then your plight takes precedence. Talk about self-centered.
And MMR is okay? You’re antivax to the core. The claim you accept even one as “okay” is a lie. Care to try spinning this any another way?
Oh, please continue with this eugenicist thought-blob.
Well? You’re just going to throw that out like a cigarette butt from a car window with nothing behind it? What are “right” reasons and “wrong” reasons?
“Building natural immunity is part of the evolutionary process”
Why does every antivaxxer sooner or later reveal their true identities as eugenists?
“Building natural immunity is part of the evolutionary process …”
And this from someone who pretends to know something about science. Failure to develop immunity is only a part of the evolutionary process if there is selection against if, meaning that those with poor immunity, whatever that might mean, are deleted from the gene pool, which traditionally is done by death. If we don’t want to mess with human evolution then we must quit all medical care, because all of it interferes with selection against those who should be culled.
“… just like the broad autistic phenotype was supposed to be the superior result of the human evolutionary process.”
Fail Number 2 in the same sentence! “Supposed to be?!” Says who – or what. There is no “supposed to be” in evolution. It produces what it produces. It isn’t guided or purposeful.
@ christine kincaid
To echo others, this is grade-A eugenicist talk.
I’ll be my usual naive idiot, believe you are a decent person who is solely misinformed, and advice you to go read again what “evolutionary process” entails.
Assertion without evidence.
“building natural immunity is part of the evolutionary process”
So was 1/3 of children dying before age five. This was mostly due to infectious diseases. So to you a child’s worth is only measured by the efficacy of their immune system?
You aren’t listening. Nobody says it doesn’t exist. They say it isn’t caused by vaccination. You say it is. Which means you believe in conspiracy theories OR that you believe that you know better than thousands of actual scientists and epidemiologists. Neither stance engenders respect for your abilities or ideas.
If you tried to tell me how to do my job I’d listen to what you say and then tell you why you are wrong. If you then accused me of being paid off by Big Electrical because you were obviously correct and I was obviously wrong I’d assume you were delusional. If you had any real desire to he taken seriously you wouldn’t start by telling everyone that their education, experience and research were a waste of time compared to your internet ‘learning’ or mommy instinct and that they were taking money to falsify data and allow children and families to suffer.
@ Number Wang,
telling everyone that their education, experience and research were a waste of time compared to your internet ‘learning’ or mommy instinct
Huge problem here. You are assuming I am somebody else; because I came here with science.
This will get stuck in eternal mod but I’ll go back over every thread I’ve posted in & post every citation I’ve given & THEN you can tell me what I’m learning & how. Okay?
Yet your comments are remarkably devoid of anything remotely resembling science.
Is this an actual attempt at reasoning, or just poorly formed snark?
@ Narad,
I’m just wondering if I missed something. I thought that committee was respected by the pro vaccine.
The ACIP is respected by us. You are just making stuff up out of thin air. It was a reaction to stating how you would create the schedule, again pulled out of thin air. It anything I am telling you can apply to join for a while. But you had better have actual evidence behind those suggestions and not just your feelings.
What you think does not matter, it is the scientific evidence that matters. Though it appears you have no clue why several viral vaccines are given only after the first birthday.
” The autism none of you here wants anybody to know about”
You come here, insult people, spinning tales/ “theories” and conspiracies as you accuse us. What’s wrong with you? People here spend their valuable time trying to educate you but probably we shouldn’t : you’d be more comfortable at AoA. They say the same things. Autism is brand new/ vaccines did it.
People who have studied medicine, PH or psychology KNOW about ASDs, IDs and SMIs. Others do too: in the 1970s, my best friend, who was a few years older, studied to become a Special Ed teacher/ Speech Correction therapist for two reasons:
— a woman across the street had a son with severe CP and needed volunteers to help her with exercises, which she did at 16
— she, whose family was from Italy, had access to the immigrant community where she said * small, elderly women– grandmothers, mothers, aunts were caretakers of adults like your son- hidden away and unassisted because they feared placement in institutions which were nightmares.
— two of her profs were activists in that area and were *African American – one was the first female department chair at a large university- they also had experience in their communities growing up concerning these issues which affected them profoundly.
And we don’t care if your mother had 2 PhDs or was tossed out of medical school: it doesn’t reflect upon your ability. Anyone can come here and present material- i.e. research- regardless of their level of education- no one needs to know if they have the data. And an MD who echoes Wakefleld’s ideas will be ridiculed. BECAUSE of the data as well.
Anyone can make up theories of ASDs or speculate about causes. Alt med people do this all the time BUT also can’t show any research that validates their ideas. If your ideas are so great, why hasn’t anyone done studies that point in a similar direction? Instead, they all point away.
Why are researchers focused on genetics and prenatal/ perinatal development.rather than vaccines? Is it all a plot?
READ what Joel, Chris, etc have to say and learn. We probably shouldn’t waste our time with you.
@ Denice,
a son with severe CP
That pisses me off too. I’m supposed to care about a mom who needs help preforming RANGE OF MOTION when my son has put people in the hospital? IF FUCKING ONLY. Disability-lite. One mom invites neighborhood teens in to bend knees & rotate wrists, while I’m trying to maintain a headlock on the 220 lbs of muscle that has his sights set on you for whistling? Sheesh.
If your ideas are so great, why hasn’t anyone done studies that point in a similar direction
I have shown you repeatedly that the research DOES support me. It’s just not part of your prepackaged proof portfolio that you all seem to have been distributed. Carefully selected authors & funding sources included. Last chapter titled ‘When all else fails, engage public ridicule’.
We probably shouldn’t waste our time with you
Oh but the lurkers …
It’s not a competition. You and your son need help desperately and I say that out of genuine concern for your son’s well-being. Please spend more time looking for resources to help your son and yourself rather than online venting spleen over vaccinesdidit.
And several have given her suggestions. I recommended her local ARC, https://thearc.org/ . Which she probably tried, but they do not tolerate her type of ableist rhetoric. They are about respecting the the disabled, and they do not allow vaccines being discussed as a cause. I suspect she burned lots of bridges behind herself.
Notice how she focuses in on a kid with CP ( “Rolf”, who -btw- couldn’t walk or talk; he grew up very disabled ) AND neglects to comment on
–the elderly Italian caretakers of severely disabled adults who feared institutions and
–the African-American Special Ed activist professors who inspired my friend
And she failed to show where research supports her ideas:
HER data is not part of the “pre-packaged, proof portfolio distributed …” – otherwise known as SBM
Right, Orac is unable to understand research well enough to choose the data which YOU approve of.
As if he and his followers haven’t read or studied the BULK of research in the areas they discuss. There’s a search box here: try searching “Wakefield” or “vaccines”
Find a therapist. Get help for your son. After that, take a course someday.
@ christine kincaid
Christine, pro-tip from a regular of the blog.
In 10+ years following this blog, I have never seen Denice upset at a commenter.
After your latest exchange, I can’t say that anymore.
If you see this as some sort of success, sincerely, go get help. For you.
@ Athaic:
Actually, I’m not that upset. I have much experience dealing with people who have intractable beliefs. If I were really upset, a string of expletives and curses would follow IN CAPS!!!!!! probably. But I’m not an android either.
-btw- I wanted to say that you have great skill with English ( I know it’s not your native tongue). Your mistakes are rather minor and the whole product is quite readable and enjoyable.
“But I’m not an android either.”
For that we are glad. I am glad you are telling her what I am thinking.
@Denice,
You are a saint. Christine got my blood so burnt to a cinder that I needed several drips of new blood to calm down….
@ Denice
(blushing)
Oh, gosh, thanks you.
“those who insist that antivaxxers aren’t okay with ANY vaccines”
It’s the antivaxers who vehemently insist that they’re pro-vaccine (but only “safe” vaccines) while spouting every antivax trope in the book – they typically won’t name a single vaccine of which they approve. When have you heard (for example) RFK Jr. declare he supports certain vaccines?
Just recently I ran into an antivaxer online who claimed that most of his compatriots didn’t oppose all vaccines. When pressed, he finally admitted that he was against all of them.
And it means relatively little to say one doesn’t have a problem with certain vaccines, but then declares vaccines in general are full of toxins and cause all sorts of chronic diseases. How likely is someone who buys into such rhetoric to get any vaccines for themselves or their children?
Yep. Whenever I see an antivaxer pontificating online that she is “not antivaccine,” I ask her: Which vaccines do you consider safe and effective, then? Which ones would you recommend for all or most children without a medical contraindication? Inevitably, the answer is either crickets chirping or a Gish gallop about how we have to be able to identify which children are susceptible to “vaccine injury” and until we do she can’t say or some other dodge.
@ Orac,
Yeah, except that’s not what I’ve said. I gave a very clear answer; that I’d be more comfortable with the MV being given priority for earlier administration over the DTP & on other threads (not this one); I’ve provided tons of citations that support my position.
It doesn’t really matter what ‘I say’ anyway it’s what the research is showing.
You understand that there’s a reason that MMR is normally given at 1 year, right? This is orthogonal to DTaP.
Narad, the logic eludes her. I am just taken aback by anyone who thinks they know more than the epidemiologists, immunologists and others who actually work in the fields of medical and public health research/policy. I just feel like patting them on the head and with my best Texas accent to say “bless your heart.”
Oh, read above; she is antivax as hell or a liar. No honesty to be found in this one at all.
@ DB,
That’s probably true. I guess I’m relatively new at this & I don’t quite understand the dynamics.
This is not any fun for me at all. The cognitive dissonance started with four photographs of my son. Two taken two days before vaccination & two taken the week after vaccination. My mom literally shoved them under my nose & said; Tell me what happened to my grandson The difference was profound yet I had been too close to see it.
About an hour later I thought of my daughter. I had always believed her O2 had been D/C’d too soon. I remembered feeling annoyed that the home O2 company had called within hours of their doctors appointment & that they came out that afternoon & after just 10 minutes of her maintaining a sat of 94%; they took her supplies & left. This is Colorado. I live at 7,000 ft elevation. I wasn’t comfortable with a 4 month old, 8 lb preemie being taken off oxygen at a marginal 94%.
If I had been her nurse, instead of her mother; I would have left her O2 on. But then it dawned on me. If they came out that same day as the appointment; that meant she had just been vaccinated (my MIL on that day had asked ‘didn’t they just get their shots?’ & I had screamed; ‘it wasn’t the vaccines!’). OMG; I’m an idiot.
It was the vaccines The room started spinning & I felt nauseous. I don’t think I had ever felt true hate until that moment.
It’s very hard to be objective after that but the research does not support that ‘all vaccines are bad’. The human experience seems to be suggesting that the process of vaccination is not being tolerated well by some (not all) people. Everyone is too polarized. Reality never is.
I’m going to pedant for a moment and then get to the point: The word is “nauseated”; if you’re nauseous, you’re causing nausea. I’ve noted before that, as an editor, I’m a selective prescriptivist.
Now, what does this have to do with Scientology’s recent mischief, which is the subject of this post? Christine’s Traveling Antivaccine Show has a very low signal-to-noise ratio. This is what I mean when I say “engagement at any cost.”
You know, Christine, it’s beginning to feel as if you’re using this forum as some form of therapy. But it’s actually not all about you or your experiences. It’s becoming tedious. Try talking about the science for a change.
Is that barrel distortion on the photo of the Scientology building, or did time and space just warp after they took it over?
Ah, I hadn’t noticed the curvature on the near sides. Still, probably just a wide-angle lens. L-rd only knows where they shot it from.
Instead of having “SCIENCE” in giant letters as the page header on his website, James Lyons-Weiler should use that photo of the SCIENTOLOGY complex.
They must have hired a TMer to levitate up there… ;- )
“Lucy Cole is a Scientology Operating Thetan VIII, the highest current auditing level in Scientology.”
Seeing that in “straight face” reporting form Orac is kinda unsettling.
You know, sadmar, I think that he was joking
but perhaps sceptics should learn more about Scientology and its associated orgs.
Just looking at Wikipedia on the main topic and CCHR is enlightening.
They influence people away from realistic mental health information and SB care. There are forays into
“therapy” for prisoners and drug afflicted people. They have their own television channel as well.Don’t they practically OWN a city in Florida?
It’s based on science fiction and BAD science fiction at that .I mean I LOVE scifi but not as SB psychology.
–there’s a REAL reason Hubbard hated psychiatrists ( see CCHR wiki)
— Leah Rimini’s show interviews people who have been harmed by Scientology.
It’s not a joke, because it’s consistent throughout the OP. In short, the OP lacks the usual verbal flourishes of Insolence. My guess would be that Orac is assuming a more conventional mode of ‘objective journalism”, perhaps because the essay was written to appear in some more formal setting in addition to here. And perhaps in serving that some factual passages were cut-and-pasted from another source. FWIW, I meant so insinuation of anything whatsoever. It’s just that if something hits you as weirrd, you might react by saying “That’s weird” out loud.
Chris,
It was a reaction to stating how you would create the schedule, again pulled out of thin air
Oh okay. I guess the ‘antivaxxers don’t like any vaccines’ is just trope.
@ Meg,
Try talking about the science for a change
I did but everyone freaked out because they wanted me to post something from your usual suspects. I instead cited peer-reviewed literature from provaccine scientists & the only ones who looked at it objectively was Aarno & Julian. I’ll give Narad a nod on this as well.
@ Denice,
Orac is unable to understand research well enough to choose the data which YOU approve of
I didn’t say Orac. I said you all here.
Most of the regulars here learn more about SBM through Orac’s writings and their own studies/ efforts.
-btw- get help
@ Denice,
Most of the regulars here learn more about SBM through Orac’s writings
Yes, I would suppose that’s how most with no actual life experience would learn stuff. From someone they trust. Who also learned from someone they trust. Who also learned from someone they trust.
As long as the rules of epidemiology had been tweaked & established; no conspiracy is needed.
-btw- I am more convinced that I am right after spending these last few weeks here; than ever before. Oh no. Did I just satisfy a stereotype? Whatever could you be doing wrong?
By all means, present Christine’s Rules of True Epidemiological Order. You could be like Luther nailing his
fecestheses to the Schloßkirche.AoA has gone from Argumentum ad Brady Bunchium to Argumentum ad Big Birdium (they have a piece up which extrapolates from an episode where Big Bird got Birdy Pox and it was no big deal, so that means we shouldn’t be vaccinating against chickenpox).
They would probably not be happy with this video in which Elmo learns about the benefits of vaccination from the Surgeon General.
I liked the part where the Surgeon General asks Elmo if he pretends a piece of broccoli is a tree and that he’s the world’s biggest lumberjack.*
*this might be a subtle dig at antivaxers. 🙂
Haha, that’s a cute video.
For the record, I totally pretended broccoli was trees when I was a kid; I thought everyone did. 🙂 (it was one of my favorite foods, raw with ranch dressing.)
In college, they serve this very odd casserole with the brocolli stood up on its stems called “enchanted forest.”
Now I have Brian Eno lyrics running through my head.
Drifting about through the cauliflower trees
With a cauliflower ear for the birds
The Squadron assembled what senses they had
And this is the sound that they heard….
@ DB,
AoA has gone from Argumentum ad Brady Bunchium to Argumentum ad Big Birdium
What is this fascination with AoA all about? Don’t you find it to be annoying?
Well, you’re annoying, and you still get attention. For that matter, AoA is a shadow of its former frothing self. What the fuck do you care?
@ Narad,
Oh, please continue with this eugenicist thought-blob
It’s not eugenics when nature does it; it’s evolution. Meaning the provaccine are eugenics-promoters.
Supposedly Hitler had a fascination with the Rh negative blood type (which he was not but the Ashkenazi & Basque had a high prevalence of) & many were spared the gas chamber in favor of involuntary medical experimentation.
With vaccines.
“Nature” is some sort of disembodied entity? Do you live in the woods like a bunny rabbit? Fuck off.
@ Narad,
Of all the arguments I expected to have; the evolution of the immune system was the last of them.
https://evmedreview.com/evidence-for-evolution-in-human-immune-systems/
Finally, the wholly inchoate Godwin.
In other news, Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead. The Basque, indeed.
@ Narad,
Maybe stick to the science of vaccines … Which is quickly loosing touch with actual science. And history.
https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/how-german-blood-purity-research-advanced-medical-knowledge-a-902865-2.html
I saw that link about five minutes after I saw your derivative, frosted comment, Toonces.
You’ve got a fucking load of desperate nerve to tell anyone else to “stick to the science.” You’ve had your chances.*
*How’s that germinal center explanation coming along?
Maybe stick to the science of vaccines … Which is quickly loosing touch with actual science. And history.
https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/how-german-blood-purity-research-advanced-medical-knowledge-a-902865-2.html
If I may paraphrase: A Swiss crank historian wrote a book exaggerating the influence of blood-group quackery upon Nazi ideology. Then a rightwing German tabloid newspaper regurged a summary of that book, confounding “blood groups” with Hitler’s inchoate notions on “blood = race” (mainly as an excuse to blame Jewish doctors for the rise of antisemitism).
Therefore vaccines = Nazis.
I could not quite grasp the underlying logic.
Maybe stick to the science of vaccines … Which is quickly loosing touch with actual science
Actual science, performed by actual scientists, published in reputable journals after peer review? Studies like these?
1.Taylor et al. (1999) studied 498 children in the UK showing no difference in autism rates or age at ASD development based on vaccination.
2. Makela et al. (2001) studied 500,000 children in Finland showing no difference in autism rates or age at ASD development based on vaccination.
3. Madsen et al. (2002) studied 500,000 children in Denmark showing no difference in autism rates or age at ASD development based on vaccination.
4. Hviid et al. (2003) studied 450,000 children in Denmark showing no difference in autism based on thimerosal in vaccines.
5. Verstraeten et al. (2003) studied 125,000 children in the U.S. showing no difference in autism and other disorders based on thimerosal in vaccines.
6. Andrews et al. (2004) studied 100,000 children in the UK and found no difference in autism and several other disorders based on thimerosal in vaccines.
7. DeStefano et al. (2004) studied 2,500 children in the U.S. showing no difference in autism rates based on vaccination.
8. Smeeth et al. (2004) studied 5000 people in the UK and found no difference in autism and several other disorders based on vaccination.
9. Honda et al. (2005) studied 300,000 people in Japan showing no difference in autism rates based on vaccination.
10. Fombonne et al. (2006) studied 28,000 children in Canada showing no difference in autism rates and other developmental disorders based on vaccination.
11. Richler et al. (2006) studied 300 people with autism in the U.S. and found no difference in regressive autism rates based on vaccination.
12. Uchiyama et al. (2007) studied 900 people with autism in Japan and found no difference in regressive autism rates based on vaccination.
13-14. Price et al. (2010) and DeStefano et al. (2013) studied 1000 children in the U.S. and found no difference in either classical or regressive autism rates, or other forms of ASD, based on thimerosal or other ingredients in vaccines.
15. Kuwaik et al. (2014) studied autism rates among those who had older siblings with autism, showing no difference based on vaccination even with genetic predispositions to autism.
16. Jain et al. (2015) replicated the study with 95,000 people and got the same result.
17. Baxter et al. (2015) showed that, when using the same diagnosis criteria, the autism rate was the same 25 years ago as it is today.
18. Gadad et al. (2015) showed no difference in autism rates in rhesus monkeys based on vaccination, and their brains were dissected just to make certain. Also, this study was funded by anti-vaccine groups.
19. Taylor et al. (2014) performed a meta-analysis (better than double-blind studies!) with 1,250,000 people, showing no difference in autism rates based on vaccination.
20. Zerbo et al. (2017) studied 200,000 in the USA showing no difference in autism rates based on influenza vaccination during the mothers’ pregnancy.
21. Becerra-Culqui et al. (2018) studied 80,000 in the USA showing no difference in autism rates based on Tdap vaccination during the mothers’ pregnancy.
22. Hviid et al. (2019) repeated the earlier studies with 650,000 children and confirmed again that there was no difference in autism rates based on vaccination.
“Supposedly Hitler had a fascination with the Rh negative blood type (which he was not but the Ashkenazi & Basque had a high prevalence of) & many were spared the gas chamber in favor of involuntary medical experimentation.”
Citation needed. Facebook fuckknuckles don’t count.
Yeah, who needs AoA anymore?
We’ve got Christine as a prime source of antivax crazy.
Yep.
I have finished reading the thread, including her latest it’s-not-eugenism-if-I-let-nature-do-it, with a bit of Hitler-did-vaccines, just to dig herself deeper.
Funny of one’s opinion of someone goes down as the mouse wheel scroll down.
I wasn’t paying enough attention to her posts in previous threads.
@ Athaic,
Not big on history either? And there is no scientific basis for natural immunity? Oh, I see; we are damned without vaccines (we soon will be)..God this is sad.
I will once again invoke the “sad sack” label. Christine almost certainly knew what and where she was doing (and still is trying to do) and exactly how it would end up. Perhaps it’s a reprieve, but it’s a ghoulish existence all the same.
Oooh. Now thars a straw man blowing. No scientific basis for natural immunity? What are you on about? The purpose of vaccination is not to give us something we cant get in the wild, it’s to alleviate the suffering that the wild process causes. Fewer deaths, fewer long term consequences, even just fewer days in bed feeling a tad rough.
Also, you can cite all you want but dont pretend you’re involved. Dont pretend you actually understand enough to evaluate when your real complaint is that evidence doesnt agree with you. FYI accusing someone of tweaking the rules of epidemiology falls under the ‘everyone knows but is being paid to keep quiet/falsify data’ conspiracy. Feel free to gain a qualification in epidemiology and then critique it from a position of knowledge.
snort
Little girl, I’m French. Grand-dad was POW, courtesy of Hitler, Grandma was running around Lyon with a big luggage full of illicit foodstuff. A great-uncle was working in a railway station and he modestly described his actions as “I was just making sure with a certain door was unlocked.” But sure, tell me about Hitler.
If your stance is to reject any medical advancement for which immoral things were done, it’s an ethical debate to be done, indeed. There was last year in the news the story of the 19th-century US doctor who developed an important surgery procedure. But he did it by experimenting on Black women slaves, without anesthetics. I’m content with the way things evolved – throw the statue of the guy to the trash, keep the procedure.
However, in the cases of vaccines, it’s also guilt by word-association. To my knowledge, the Nazis were mostly focused on a new tuberculosis vaccine, But modern-day TB vaccine (BCG) was developed independently, and before (1921) the nazi experiments. Same will hold true for other vaccines, AFAIK.
If your stance is, because Hitler used it, then the whole topic is bad… C’est un peu court, jeune dame.
@ NumberWang
Nitpicking: except in the case of the tetanus vaccine, as acquiring an efficient natural immunity to the highly-deadly toxin is very unlikely.
But this vaccine has always been very distinct from other vaccines.
Come to think about it, each and every vaccine is different to some extent to the other ones.
At this point, I don’t believe a thing she says. I think she’s just a very persistent troll. To be harshly blunt, if she really believed in what she was saying about evolution and allowing nature to do away with those who are unfit, she would have followed the old “cure” for disability of leaving her son on a hillside to die. She’s vile.
In other anti-vax news…
RFK jr appeared in an Albany, NY court today attempting to block a new law that disallows religious vaccine exemptions accompanied by an army** of followers dressed in white cosplaying parents of the “disappeared ones” ***. The justice did not decide yet.
** various reports estimate the crowd at “hundreds” ( NY news papers) to ” a thousand”
*** because we all know that vaccinated kids are very similar to missing/ dead victims of dictators
This is a weird OP. Calling me a eugenicist is hitting below the belt but it’s representative of what the American people can expect from the proponents of mandatory vaccination when they voice valid concerns.
Apparently your propagandists neglected to instill an ‘off’ switch & that’s scary. You will cause children to be highly vulnerable to VPDs. Your verbal abuse of me is inconsequential & I unintentionally provoked you. Try that on a nation-wide scale, involving organizations well-experienced in manipulation & you are toast. You cant help yourself.
It’s a useful skill to be able to tell the difference between people’s talking to you and about you.
It would seem to me that if you don’t want to be labelled a eugenicist then you’d probably want to avoid spouting off eugenicist rhetoric.
In typical anti-vaxx fashion, black is white, up is down, etc.
Is this some form of, “Wait ’till I get my big brother after you.”?
Calling me a eugenicist is hitting below the belt
Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.
There is another perseverating commenter who visits here and has shown sympathy toward you. Perhaps you would have better results both focusing your viewpoints and spreading them if you joined forces with him on your own web site and forum. He is both a published author and has demonstrated experience with web site design.
@Christine Kincaid Evolution would be like this: some children are more vulnerable to measles than others. Measles would kill them. Vulnerability would be removed. Interesting thing is, that this has not been happened, all diseases, expect ones eradicated by vaccines, are still around. Pathogens evolve much faster than humans. Any case, survival of fittest baby is eugenics, pure and simple.
Of course, there are natural immunity. You need to get sick before, though. Vaccination gives you immunity without that little problem.
Suffering makes you pure but vaccines stop you suffering, therefore vaccines are the work of the devil as they keep you away from God, however, there is no God and suffering generally makes you bitter and twisted, as seen pretty much everywhere in the world.
suffering makes you pure I’m not sure there’s any organization in the world (outside of USMC boot camp) that actually believes that. I wonder how Christine K feels about childbirth with no epidural?
Well, sure: Christine wants those susceptibles to pile up for the next round.
Ah, but eventually a superman shall be born. He will be immune to all pathogens and immortal. He will care for all Earth’s creatures equally but some more equally than others. In order to prepare for his arrival, all vaccination must be stopped. How else are the pretenders to be weeded out?
@ Shay Simmons,
Studies like these*
No. Those are all epidemiology. Autism is a multifactorial genetic condition & one factor is immune-mediation. The cytokine profiles indicate that there has been a viral immune response. One vaccine has consistently & repeatedly shown that it results in increased susceptibility to other pathogens: The DTP.
One pathogen suspected as correlated with Autism (& Alzheimer’s) is HSV. I believe cocksackie has been noted as well. Do you know of any research that refutes this? If this susceptibility is genetically mediated; a vaccines correlation with Autism could possibly not be picked up by the epidemiology.
I wonder how Christine K feels about childbirth with no epidural
Well, I’ve done that 4 times already. Childbirth with an epidural only twice & three c-sections. Epidurals are sort of overrated.
Putting all the other problems with that comment apart, DTaP is a sub unit vaccine against three bacterial diseases. DTP was a sub unit and killed bacteria vaccine against the same three diseases.
There’s no way either could generate a “viral immune response,” whatever that is (I assume you’re trying to say immune response to a virus; otherwise, the term means nothing).
Note that aside from the maternal immune response studies – which talk about moms getting infections in pregnancy – none of the studies, to my knowledge, showed a causal link between immune activation and autism, just addressed the presence of immune issues in autism. I hope Matt Carey is one of the other people keeping up with autism science can address this.
a vaccines correlation with Autism could possibly not be picked up by the epidemiology.
Please – grace us with your definition of “epidemiology.”
Yah, but only HSV-2.
“Susceptibility” to DTaP? You’re just babbling, and everything you’re tossing out is antenatal. There’s no hope invoking the First Rule of Holes by now, but your mushy version of an idée fixe is well past being tiresome.
Some of epidemiological studies are about vaccines and siblings of autistic people. How else you can define genetic susceptibility ?
“Do you know of any research that refutes this?”
Wrong question, as usual.
It should be “What evidence supports my beliefs? Can my claim be proved?”
In other NY news, an MMS “seminar” in upstate NY replete with child-abusing gun-toting yobs. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/16/bleach-based-miracle-cure-group-seminar-new-york
Chlorine dioxide is really dangerous stuff. I design machines to make it for industrial uses (paper mills, cooling towers) and water treatment systems. It is designed to wipe microbiologicals to remove them from water. It is a strong, selective oxidizer and very dangerous inside and out.
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